House of Commons
Monday, July 8, 1912
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER Laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
North Killingholme Pier Bill [ Lords ].
London Trust Company Bill [ Lords ].
Nottingham Mechanics Institution Bill [ Lords ].
Great Central Railway (Grimsby Fish Dock) Bill [ Lords ].
Blyth Harbour Bill [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
Provisional Order Bills [ Lords ] (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, brought from the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—
Land Drainage (Lincoln West) (South District) Provisional Order Bill [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.
Bedwellty Urban District Council Bill,
Belfast Water Bill,
Port of London Authority Bill,
Scunthorpe Urban District Water Bill,
Tavistock Urban District Council Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Australian Agricultural Company Bill [ Lords ],
Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
London County Council (Finance) Bill,
London County Council (General Powers) Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Stepney Borough Council (Spitalfields Market) Bill [ Lords ],
Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Brighton Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Bordon and District Gas Bill [ Lords ],
Great Northern Railway Bill [ Lords ],
To be read a second time To-morrow.
Great Central Railway Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Norfolk Fisheries Provisional Order Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
Board of Agriculture and Fisheries
Paper [presented 27th June] to be printed. [No. 206.]
Customs Waterguard Service and Customs Watchers
Copy presented of Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee on the Customs Waterguard Service and the Customs Watchers [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
National Insurance Act
Copy presented of Order made under Section 78 of The National Insurance Act, 1911, by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee acting alone, and also acting jointly with the several bodies of Commissioners, with reference to the Procedure for making Special Orders [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Provisional Regulations, dated 5th July, 1912, made by the Insurance Commissioners, providing for the constitution of the Insurance Committee for the Scilly Isles [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 208.]
Trade Reports (Annual Series)
Copies presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 4915, 4921, 4926, 4927, 4936, and 4938 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Employment of Government Savings Banks Deposits
Copy presented of Statement showing how Deposits in Government Savings Banks in certain Foreign Countries and British Possessions are employed [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Experiments on Living Animals
Return presented relative thereto [Address 5th July; Mr. Ellis Griffith ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 207.]
New Writ
For the Borough of Hanley, in the room of Enoch Edwards, esquire, deceased.—[ Mr. George Roberts .]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
County Councils (Purchase of Farms)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture, concerning land purchased by certain county councils, which of the councils of the counties named have purchased complete farms; how many of such farms in each of the counties have been purchased; and what is the acreage of each farm?
The Board have no record showing the number of complete farms purchased by county councils, and in order to obtain the information for which the hon. Member asks it would be necessary for me to address a special inquiry to every council which has purchased land for the purpose of small holdings. I scarcely think that the value of the information would be commensurate with the amount of work which would be thrown upon the officers of the Board and the county councils concerned.
Is it not clear that if it were done once there would be very little difficulty in doing it again in the future, and are there not a great many people interested in the question of small holdings who would be very grateful for the information?
I am afraid that if we had to keep the return up to date we should have to get a lot of information from time to time. As a matter of fact, when big farms are bought by county councils they are nearly all bought with the object of breaking them up into small holdings.
Kew Palace (Oil Paintings)
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether his attention has been called to the bad condition of the oil paintings in the Palace at Kew; and whether he will take steps at an early date to call in expert advice, and, if necessary, to remedy the defects?
The paintings and works of art in the Palace of Kew, as in other Royal Palaces, are now in the care of the Lord Chamberlain, and are maintained out of the Civil List. They ceased to be maintained out of Voted Moneys under an arrangement made some time ago with His Majesty's Office of Works. The Lord Chamberlain informs me that he has already had the matter referred to in the question under his consideration.
Is it the fact that it is 35 years since expert advice was sought?
As I explained in my answer, these paintings are under the care of the Lord Chamberlain and are attended to out of moneys provided from the Civil List. When the hon. and gallant Gentleman put down his question the Lord Chamberlain was communicated with, and the answer I have read out, was the result of a communication from him this morning.
British Museum
asked whether the contractors for some marble work in connection with the British Museum have been granted permission to sub-let part of the contract abroad; if so, what are the reasons which induced the Department to give permission; and whether other points of view besides those of the employers were taken into consideration, in view of the fact that competent workmen can be obtained in this country, and, if they were employed, the Fair-Wages Clause would operate?
The contractors for the marble work in connection with the British Museum have been granted permission, in accordance with the custom in the trade, to sub-let a part of the contract abroad. This is in conformity with the Fair-Wages Resolution.
Post Office Savings Bank (Ireland)
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in reference to Ireland only, he would state the total amount due by the Post Office to depositors; the average amount to the credit of each active account; the number of active accounts; and the proportion of active accounts to population; whether the amount received from depositors is invested in Government securities; and, whether, in view of the high rate of interest now obtainable on these owing to their low price, he will increase the rate of interest payable to new depositors?
The total amount due to depositors on the 31st December, 1911, in accounts opened in Ireland was £12,480,482; the average amount to the credit of each active account was £28 1s. 6d.; the number of active accounts was 443,916; and the proportion of active accounts to population was 1 in 9.86. The amount received from depositors is invested in Government securities. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Is the bulk of it invested in Consols?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman will find in the Appendix to the Postmaster-General's Report a table setting out the investments of the fund.
Telephone Service
Kent Villages
asked the Postmaster-General if he could give any satisfactory explanation of the fact that the telephone system has not been extended from Canterbury to the larger villages in the Elham Valley; if he can say when the telephone system is likely to be so extended; and whether he has refused any offers to bear a part of the cost of such an extension?
The Elham Valley is in a district which up to the 1st January last was served by the National Telephone Company. I understand that the company considered the question of extending their system in that direction, but were unable to secure sufficient support. I propose to have the principal villages canvassed, and if an adequate number of subscribers is forthcoming I shall be happy to open Exchanges. If the hon. Member has any particular places in mind, perhaps he will let me know their names. I am not aware of any offer having been made to share the cost of any extension in the neighbourhood.
asked the Postmaster General if he would ascertain whether any telephone poles and wires had been carried across private property within the county of Canterbury and in the adjoining county of Kent, without the consent of the owner or tenant having been asked; if he would ascertain if wires had been so-carried; how many wires would have to be removed; and how soon such removals may be expected to take place after notice has been given of objection and remonstrance?
So far as I am aware no Post Office wires have been attached to private property without the consent of the owner or tenant in Canterbury, or Kent, or elsewhere. The Telegraph Acts give the Postmaster-General certain limited powers of flying wires over private property without the consent of the owners or tenants, but it would be impracticable to obtain a return of the cases in which such powers have been used. If the hon. Member will give me particulars of any wires he may have in mind, I shall be happy to give him information as to the circumstances in which they have been erected.
Metropolitan Police
asked what was the nature of the misunderstanding in 1911 which saddled Metropolitan rate payers with the pay of 500 members of the Metropolitan Police force whilst engaged in Hull in aid of the local police; and whether any, and, if so, what steps have been taken by the Home Office, and with what result, to transfer the obligation to the local authority in relief of the Metropolitan rates?
The arrangement to send the men to Hull was made verbally by telephone at a critical moment, and in these circumstances my predecessor gave a promise that if all extra charges were paid no claim would be made for reimbursement of the men's pay. This was not in accordance with the ordinary practice, but it was a binding arrangement, which had to be maintained. No extra charge has been thrown on the Metropolitan ratepayers: they merely lost for a few days the services of the 500 men—less than a fortieth of the whole force.
:Have the Metropolitan ratepayers to pay their pay?
Yes, the actual pay falls upon them.
They gave their services then?
For a very short time. The arrangement was not made that pay as well as the additional cost should be borne by Hull.
Did the critical period arise from the fact that there was a by-election?
No, the whole circumstance occurred a long while ago and had nothing to do with a by-election. The question is really impertinent—I am not using the word in an offensive sense.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor in office told me in answer to a question that no burden ought to be thrown on the Metropolitan ratepayers?
That is so. The ordinary pay of the police was paid by the Metropolitan ratepayers, but all the extra charge, cost of the journey and extra allowances were paid by the people of Hull.
:Is it not a fact that in a similar case where the Metropolitan Police were taken away from the Metropolis the cost of the pay was borne by the Treasury?
In only one case has the cost been paid by the Treasury—the case of Glamorgan. That, I trust, will not be a final payment by the Treasury, but the money will be subsequently recovered from the county council.
In that case no part of the cost will fall on London?
:In order to prevent any such charge falling on the ratepayers of London, the cost will be primarily borne by the Imperial Treasury. We have not so far been able to recover the amount from the Glamorgan County Council, but we have not abandoned our efforts.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will say what provision is made to enable members of the Metropolitan Police force on point duty on Sundays at busy centres of traffic to take food and refreshment during continuous hours of duty; what is the average length of time of continuous point duty on Sundays; whether relief is afforded on Sundays to enable food and refreshment to be taken; and, if not, whether he will take steps to enable such relief to be given?
:Mainly to meet the wishes of the men, they are permitted to perform their Sunday duty in one tour of the average length of about eight hours, thereby securing more leisure on that day. It has been, and is, the practice to allow as large a number of men as possible to avail themselves of leave due to them on Sunday, and so many men being on leave, it is not practicable to provide temporary relief for those who are on Sunday duty, and they therefore are instructed to take their food as opportunity presents itself. Any alteration in this practice would, I believe, be unpopular with the great majority of the men.
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that this concession only applies to men on fixed point duty who cannot get away, and not to men on beat who can get away?
I am advised by the Commissioner of Police that the circumstances are as I have stated to the House.
Questions
Frederick Crowsley (Sentence)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are the reasons which induced him to reduce from four to two months the sentence passed on Frederick Crowsley for distributing a pamphlet advising soldiers not to shoot?
It is not the practice for the Home Secretary to state the grounds on which he advises His Majesty in the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, and in this case it would be impossible for me in answer to a question to enter into all the considerations which have led me to advise a reduction of sentence as an act of clemency.
Do not the reasons appear chiefly to be based on the support that this man gets below the Gangway? If matters have that appearance, is it not right that the right hon. Gentleman should state such reasons as prove that it is not the case?
No, these appearances exist only in the imagination of the hon. Gentleman.
Henry Richardson, Sheffield (Bankruptcy)
asked the Attorney - General whether his attention has been called to the case of Henry Richardson in the Sheffield Bankruptcy Court on the 25th April last, and to the comments of the registrar as to the methods of a certain company disclosed therein; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter by introducing legislation or otherwise?
I have been asked by my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General to answer this question. I have read the comments of the registrar of the County Court at Sheffield which are referred to, and I am informed that certain house purchase certificates which were taken up by Mr. Richardson, and mortgaged by him as collateral security for a loan, became liable to forfeiture owing to the premium being more than twelve months in arrear. Last April the company offered to reinstate the certificates on payment of the loan, subscriptions in arrear, and interest, and I understand that they have now offered to allow two-thirds of the premiums credited to the certificates as a surrender value. As at present advised, I do not propose to take any action.
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the general question of the misleading agreements which were a prominent feature in this case, and how they can be prevented in future?
That is another matter not applying to one case alone. I will consider that.
Street Traffic (London)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that residents in Tufnell Park Road and Brecknock Road, in North London, complain that they have recently been deprived of all peaceable enjoyment of their premises owing to the din and clatter caused by the introduction of motor omnibuses into these thoroughfares; and, having regard to the constantly growing nuisance and annoyance caused by the extension of motor omnibus routes in London, many of them over roads with adjoining properties which were never intended to bear the strain now imposed on them, to the injury caused by vibration, dust, and mud-splashing, and to the apparent lack of any effective power of interference by the Home Office or the Commissioner of Police, will he consider the advisability of asking for legislation so as to enable the authorities to exercise control over a nuisance which had not been contemplated when the present powers were conferred?
Complaints of the annoyance caused by the recently introduced motor omnibus service have been received from persons living in these thoroughfares. The police will at once intervene if there be infringement of the law, but neither the Home Secretary nor the Commissioner has any power to control the routes followed by stage carriages. I am not prepared to introduce legislation giving to local authorities a veto on the use of particular roads.
Is there any reason why a local authority in London should not have the same power as is possessed by local authorities in the provinces?
That is a very large question. I cannot answer it without notice.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the number of motor omnibuses and electric tramcars running in the Metropolitan Police area for the first six months of this year; and how many deaths were caused by each type of vehicle during the same period?
The number of motor omnibuses was 2,461, and of electric tram-cars 2,661. During the six months ending 30th June, 1912, 81 fatal accidents and 1,605 accidents involving personal injury were caused by these vehicles. Sixty-nine deaths were caused by omnibuses, and twelve by tramcars; personal injury was done in 783 cases by omnibuses, and in 822 cases by tramcars.
May I inquire whether any steps are being taken to compel the owners of motor omnibuses to have guards on the vehicles as in the case of tramcars?
I have frequently answered questions on the subject.
Nothing was done.
There is no suitable guard in existence.
Will my right hon. Friend say what the mechanical difficulty is?
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that between 1907 and 1911 the number of persons killed by motor omnibuses in London increased from 35 to 95 per annum, a percentage of increase nearly three times as great as the increase in the number of such vehicles; that during the present year the deaths caused by these omnibuses have been at the rate of 150 per annum; that the fatal accidents caused by electric trams show no such disproportionate increase; that during the present year the motor omnibuses have killed six persons for every one killed by trams; whether he knows of any reason why motor omnibuses should be so much more destructive of life than electric trams; and whether he will consider the desirability of refusing to license any more motor omnibuses until the companies have taken some practical steps to make their vehicles reasonably safe?
There has been a steady increase in the number of persons killed by motor omnibuses in London, the increase in the number of vehicles being only one factor in the case. The number of deaths during the half-year ended 30th June was sixty-nine. The question raised by my hon. Friend has been receiving anxious consideration. There are four reasons which may account to some extent for the apparent disproportion: (1) Motor omnibuses ply through the more congested streets from which tramcars are excluded. (2) Tramway lines are laid in the centre of the roadway, which is the safest portion; but this construction to a. considerable extent forces other traffic to the sides of roads, and therefore congests the more dangerous portion. (3) Passengers by tramcar have to cross the danger zone to get to or from the car. Others often step off crowded footways in front of vehicles coming up behind them. (4) The mileage of omnibuses is substantially greater than that of tramcars. The actual number of vehicles licensed, therefore, does not in itself afford a fair means of comparison.
asked the right hon. Gentleman if his attention has been called to the intention of the London General Omnibus Company to have 4,000 omnibuses on the London streets before the end of next summer, the number at the present time being about 1,750, of which about 1,600 are on the streets, and to the allegation that Scotland Yard takes the view that the company have not enough running; whether this accurately describes the attitude of Scotland Yard, and, if so, on what that attitude is based; and whether, seeing that this year the motor omnibuses at present on the streets have killed sixty-eight persons in about five months, and that the number killed have so far increased out of all proportion to the increase in the number of omnibuses, he will at once take steps to protect the people of London from this threatened addition to the dangers of their streets?
I have no knowledge of the intentions of the London General Omnibus Company, though I have seen a statement in the Press. The Commissioner of Police has expressed no such view as that suggested. Sixty-nine persons have been killed by motor omnibuses during the first six months of this year; but, so far as I am aware, the driver was in every instance exonerated from blame.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with this state of things?
No. I do not think that anybody could be satisfied with sixty-nine deaths occurring by accident in the streets.
Is nothing to be done to stop this terrible slaughter going on?
Yes. Every effort will be made to diminish the number of accidents in the streets.
Vivisection (Return of Experiments)
asked the Home Secretary whether there is any reason for the delay which has taken place in the publication of the Return of Experiments upon Living Animals for the year 1911; and whether he is aware that the effect of such delay is to protect licensees under the Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876, from the possibility of proceedings being taken against them for any breaches of the law, inasmuch as Section 14 of that Act renders it necessary that such proceedings should be taken within six months of the offence?
The Return was moved for last Thursday, and will soon be in the hands of Members. The date is not later than last year, and, owing to the labour involved, I do not think it can be accelerated. As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to a similar question by him on the 3rd July, 1911.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is not possible to arrange that these Returns should be published earlier in the year? Is there any reason why they should not be?
Owing to the labour involved I do not see how the publication can be accelerated, but I will inquire.
Port of London (Strike)
Naval Picket Boats
asked the Home Secretary how many naval picket boats and seamen were utilised for protective service during the dock strike of 1911; and how many naval picket boats and seamen are being utilised for similar duty during the present dock strike?
The number of naval vessels employed on patrol duty in the Thames during the strike last year was two torpedo boats and six picket boats, with total crews amounting to fifteen officers and 104 men. The number which have been similarly employed this year are one torpedo and two picket boats, with total crews of seven officers and forty-six men. This year the use of the naval vessels has been confined to the portion of the river below that ordinarily patrolled by the Metropolitan Police. Within the Metropolitan Police area, the Thames Police, having been provided with additional launches and strengthened by contingents from other divisions, has been sufficient to meet all demands.
Wages
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that one of the reasons for the continuance of the strike is the fact that the men believe that if they go back to work the employers will almost immediately reduce their wages below the amount paid before the strike; whether he can ascertain that this is not the case; and, if so, whether he will take steps to let this be generally known?
I do not see that I can usefully take any action in the matter.
Does the right hon. Gentleman admit that the facts are correctly stated in the question, and, if not, will he go down to the East End and find out for himself?
If the hon. Gentleman has any practical suggestion to make, I am perfectly willing to consider it.
:May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether I have not made a practical suggestion when I request him to go down to the East End and find out as I did?
I do not know how many hundreds of employers it would be necessary to consult.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is the men's interests I ask him to look after? I went to see the men.
That is not the point.
Police Cases
asked the Home Secretary if he will state how many cases of assault by strikers have been reported to the police, how many arrests have been made, and how many convictions have been obtained since the commencement of the dock strike in the Metropolitan and outside areas, respectively; and whether he can furnish statistics as to the numbers that have been treated in hospital?
Up to and including the 2nd instant 402 persons had been arrested in the Metropolitan Police district for offences in connection with the strike, and there were in all 360 convictions; but the number of arrests for assault cannot at present be given separately. The number of cases treated in hospital will be shown in the Return moved for by the hon. Member for East Nottingham. In Essex there have been fourteen cases connected with the strike, nine of them assaults, eleven were convicted. In Kent there have been six cases, and one conviction.
Will the right hon. Gentleman state how many have been reported to the police?
I have stated that 402 persons had been arrested.
I asked how many had been reported to the police?
I regret that part of the question appears to have escaped notice. I will inquire further.
In view of the fact that there have been 372 convictions, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is still of opinion that it is idle to suggest that there has been any intimidation?
I never suggested that there has been no intimidation. There have been 360 convictions in the Metropolitan Police district in no less than thirty-six days. That amounts to an average of ten a day. That, as compared with the general average in London, shows no material increase on the ordinary number.
May I ask whether there are 65,000 men in this dispute, and whether, in the circumstances, 360 convictions can be regarded as an abnormal number?
May I ask if there has been no intimidation?
Nobody has ever disputed that there has been intimidation. The only question ever at issue has been the amount of intimidation.
Attack on Non-Union Worker
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the case in which a non-union worker was thrown into the water at Mill-wall docks and nearly drowned, a stevedore named William Walters being charged with attempted murder in connection with the occurrence; and what further steps he proposes to take to secure the safety of men wishing to work?
My attention has been drawn to the case in question. The prisoner has been committed for trial. All possible measures have been and are being taken by the police to secure the safety of men wishing to work, and generally they have been successful.
Is it not a fact that the judge stopped the case in one charge for want of evidence, and that in another case a man was convicted and sentenced?
That is another question.
Police Protection
asked the Home Secretary whether he has received a communication from certain employers at Tilbury Dock asking that more adequate protection might be afforded to their workmen from intimidation and violence from the transport strikers, and, if so, what answer, if any, he has sent thereto; and if he has taken any further steps to meet the situation shown to exist?
As I stated, in reply to a question on Monday last, I sent the communication to which the hon. Member alludes to the Chief Constable of Essex, who is responsible for the maintenance of law and order at Tilbury, and asked him to make thorough inquiry. I have received his Report, and it shows that he has taken statements from nearly half of the forty-four men who signed the paper saying that they were deterred from working by intimidation, and it now appears that most of them deny that they have been intimidated, and assert that they were reluctant to resume work because they did not wish to associate with "blacklegs," and feared that after the strike is over, they would themselves be regarded by their fellow workmen as "blacklegs." It further appears that most of them are now actually working. I may add that the Essex police report that during the week ending 29th June, there was only one case of assault at Tilbury or Grays, and none last week. No doubt there has been some intimidation; but what the men on strike chiefly fear is the loss of status and reputation among their fellows, which would result from their returning singly to work: and from this no force, however great, of police or of soldiers could protect them.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to state whether he acknowledges that the expression "blacklegs" is a proper one to be used with reference to men who are unable to work in consequence of intimidation, and also whether the Government accept the definition?
I am quite unable to understand the point of the hon. Gentleman's question. In my report of what the men said I did state that they used the term "blacklegs." If I had used any other term, I should have been misrepresenting them.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he personally accepts the definition?
Shoreditch (Refuse Barges)
asked the right hon. Gentleman if he has asked the Lightermen's Society to allow the refuse barges of the Shoreditch Borough Council to be unloaded; and whether any action was taken on the ground that the society was entitled to endanger the public health by their attitude, or whether the forces at his disposal were insufficient to preserve order if an attempt were made to unload the refuse without the consent of the society?
The matter referred to occurred about a month ago. The Shore-ditch authorities wrote me saying that their contractors could not supply men to move the refuse barges and asking for my assistance. I could not, of course, provide the labour; but as the Strike Committee had a few days before expressed to me their willingness to carry on the necessary public services during the strike, I asked the Lightermen's Society, through Mr. Gosling, to supply the men. He at first undertook to do this, but afterwards found that he could not get his men to move. I then made arrangements for special police protection, and the council's officers found bargemen who removed the barges. The difficulty of the case was to find men willing to work; the police force available to protect them, when they were found, was ample.
Is it not a fact that the refuse was kept in the barges for ten to fourteen days, to the detriment of public health; and does the Government accept the position that the strike committee have a right to define what public services shall be used and what shall not be used?
They have no right either to define or not to define. There is no question of legal right one way or the other. With regard to barges, I have no doubt that these barges were kept unloaded for about ten days, and that it was not advantageous to public health.
Bermondsey (Alleged Intimidation)
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he has received a communication from the Mayor of Bermondsey as to the intimidation which is being employed in that borough towards men wishing to work at the docks; and, if so, will he inform the House of the terms of such communication and the reply sent by him thereto?
I received a letter from the Mayor, but my recollection is that it referred to riotous proceedings as well as to intimidation. I acknowledged the letter and handed it to Mr. Chester Jones, the magistrate who is holding an inquiry into the disturbances which occurred in Bermondsey, and I see from the Press that the letter was read at the inquiry.
Casual Employment
asked the Prime Minister, in view of the fact that the Port of London Authority have failed to carry out their obligations, under the Port of London Authority Act, to administer, preserve, and improve the port and to take such steps as they think best calculated to diminish the evils of casual employment, have issued a circular informing their employés now out on strike that they can only return on condition that they ask for employment as extra casual hands, and that they have also ignored the Resolution of the House of the 1st July last, he will state what steps the Government propose to take to compel the Authority to fulfil their statutory obligations?
My hon. Friend's question has been communicated to the Port Authority for their observation.
Is there no power remaining in this House at all which can be applied? We can deal with the House of Lords as a whole, but we cannot deal with one Member. Can Lord Devonport not be called upon to resign by this House?
My hon. Friend could not have heard my answer. I said I had communicated the question to the Port Authority.
National Insurance Act
Shop Attendants
asked the Home Secretary whether, in the case of a man growing fruit on his own land near the town, whilst his wife and daughter attend in the shop without wages, his wife and daughter will come under the Insurance Act; and, if not, whether the man will have to pay the employers' contribution; and whether, in this case, the shop where fruit and flowers are sold would come under the Shops Act?
As regards the first part of this question, I must refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury. As regards the last part of the question, a shop in which fruit and flowers are sold comes under the Act, but it is exempt from the obligation to close for a half-holiday on one weekday in each week, unless an order is expressly made by the local authority for that class of trade with the consent of the occupiers of two-thirds of the shops in the trade.
Administration (Ireland)
asked if the Prime Minister will say in what manner the Irish Government is to administer the National Insurance Act, 1911, in the event of it taking over the administration of that Act, as provided in Clause 5 (2) ( b ), without having also taken over the administration of the services in connection with friendly societies; and whether, having regard to the provision that the public services in connection with friendly societies cannot be transferred to the Irish Government until the expiration of ten years from the appointed day, the public services in connection with the National Insurance Act, 1911, can be effectively undertaken by the Irish Government until the expiration of a similar period?
There is nothing to prevent the Irish Government administering the National Insurance Act, 1911, without taking over the administration of the reserved services in connection with friendly societies, which are matters distinct from national insurance.
Is that desirable.
That is a matter for discussion, not for question and answer.
Tailoring Trade (Strike)
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that non-unionist members of the tailoring trade have been intimidated and roughly handled in the East End, and stand in need of police protection; whether representations have been made to him in this behalf; and, if so, what action has been taken on such representations?
No organised intimidation connected with this strike has been brought to the notice of the police, and there have been no disturbances of a serious nature. Police protection has been afforded in individual cases where it has been required.
Does the right hon. Gentleman say that no representations at all have been made to him?
I said that no organised intimidation has been brought to the notice of the police.
Royal Navy
Battleships (Austria and Italy)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the number of completed battleships of 8,000tons or over possessed by Italy and Austria in January of the years 1902, 1907, and 1912; and how many such vessels were retained in the Mediterranean by Great Britain in that month of those years?
:Omitting ships over twenty years old, the figures are as follows:—
Are the Government going to retrace their steps before it is too late?
German Fleet
asked how many battleships and battle cruisers belonging respectively to Great Britain and Germany have been delayed in construction; and how many were commissioned for service with the Fleets in advance of the anticipated period of construction?
I assume that the question is intended to refer only to ships of the "Dreadnought" type. The only official information with regard to German vessels which has been received concerned the anticipated dates of delivery from the shipyards of certain ships. These were given by the late First Lord in replies to questions on 6th March and 12th July, 1911. We have no official information as to the dates on which it was anticipated that any of these ships would commission for service with the Fleet. With regard to British ships of the "Dreadnought" type, there are now eighteen in commission. Twelve of these were delayed in construction, five were commissioned in advance of the anticipated time, and one was commissioned on the anticipated date.
asked the final total strength of the German fleet in battleships, battle cruisers, armoured cruisers, protected cruisers, destroyers, submarines, and personnel as arranged under the German Naval Acts first of the year 1900, and secondly of the year 1912?
The terms battle-cruisers, armoured cruisers, and protected cruisers do not occur in the Fleet Laws. Also, I should add, the number of destroyers arranged for in 1900 was stated in a Memorandum attached to the Fleet Bill of 1900. The number of destroyers and submarines arranged for in 1912 was stated in an Appendix to the Amendment Bill of 1912.
Fleet Law of 1900:—
38 Battleships.
14 Large Cruisers.
38 Small Cruisers.
96 Destroyers.
No mention of Submarines.
Fleet Law of 1912:—
41 Battleships.
20 Large Cruisers.
41 Small Cruisers.
144 Destroyers.
72 Submarines.
Information regarding personnel was given in a Memorandum attached to the Fleet Law of 1900, but this information is incomplete, the future established strength referring to certain branches only. The increase in certain branches caused by the Law of 1912 was detailed in an Appendix attached to that Law, but the final figures to be reached are not given. A translation of the Amending Law of 1912, together with the Appendices thereto, was issued as a Parliamentary Paper, Command No. 6117.
asked what was the strength of the active service personnel of the German navy in 1906, and what was then the strength of the reserves of that navy, and what is now the strength of the German active service personnel, and what is now the strength of the German naval reserve?
The German Navy Estimates provided for the following active service personnel:—
Light-Armoured Cruisers (1912–13)
asked whether tenders have been invited for any vessels of the 1912–13 programme other than destroyers; and, if so, for what ships, and when is it anticipated orders may be placed to permit the collection of material for construction?
The answer is in the negative. Tenders for the light-armoured cruisers will be called for within the next few days. As I have already stated, of the four armoured ships of the 1912–13 new programme, two will be laid down in the dockyards in November.
New Construction (Delay)
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether the abnormal delays, whatever the cause, in recent new construction will be taken into consideration in allotting the contracts for the vessels of the current programme; and whether he will obtain some reliable guarantee that our naval position will not be jeopardised in the future by similar failure to complete to time?
The delay in recent new construction will be taken into account both as regards date of order and selection of firms when allotting contracts of present programme. The orders for the destroyers have already been allotted. Everything possible will be done to minimise the effect of causes tending to delay, but it is not admitted that anything has arisen to justify the use of the word jeopardise."
Parliamentary Visit to Fleet
asked how many ships taking part in the Naval Review will have their full complement of crew?
The number of ships will be 223. They will all have full crews, with a partial exception in the case of six training ships. As I stated in reply to the Noble Lord the Member for Portsmouth on 1st July, the Training Squadron will retain their boys and the cadet ships their cadets, and consequently the deck complements of these ships will differ from what they would be in war.
Have these 223 ships a complement sufficient simply to take up their position in a review or have they a complement sufficient to enable them to go into action to-morrow?
They have all a full complement.
That means that they are ready to go into action?
Yes.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will provide a sufficient number of lifeboats and other appliances for the safety of hon. Members who visit the Fleet on Tuesday.
Yes, Sir.
Have the Admiralty determined upon the priority with which Members will be allowed to take their places in the boats?
How many Members have to be provided for?
Up to the present time 461 Members of both Houses have accepted our invitation, but if any Members are desirous of having invitations and let me know during the day I will make arrangements. I may say the company have made all arrangements for the safety of Members in the gloomy contingency mentioned by my hon. Friend. There will be 223 men-of-war and a hospital ship.
Supplementary Estimates
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether, in laying before the House the Supplementary Naval Estimates which he has promised, he will take into full account the fact that the one million pounds, allocated to the Navy out of the surplus of six millions and a-half, is less by over £600,000 than the amount which though included in the Naval Estimates of 1911–12, remained unspent, owing to delayed construction, at the end of the financial year, and therefore went back into the Treasury?
The reply is in the affirmative.
Admiralty Yacht "Enchantress."
asked the annual cost to the nation of the Admiralty yacht "Enchantress"; the number of guests the yacht can carry; and the number of officers and men taken from the national service for the service of the yacht?
The annual cost of the "Enchantress," including the charges for maintenance, provisioning, and coal, is about £10,800. The number of cabins available permits of the accommodation of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty and the Secretaries to the Board. The sea-going complement of the vessel is 199 officers and men, whose services would be available in war.
H.M.S. "Thunderer."
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can give any account of the accident on H.M.S. "Thunderer," when a shell fell into the magazine; if he can say what kind of fuse was in the shell; and where the fuse was manufactured?
I am glad to have this opportunity of giving an emphatic contradiction to the alarmist reports that have appeared in the Press, and constitute a gross slander upon the conduct and bearing of the personnel of the Royal Navy. I will read to the House the official account of the accident that has been forwarded to the Admiralty by the Commander-in-Chief, Devonport:—
"The last shell, except one, was being lowered to 'Y' shell room in the Service pattern sling, the point of the shell being upwards. It was about half-way down, when owing to a kink in the wire whip a turn came off the drum of the electric winch, and the projectile took charge and fell to the deck of the shell room. It struck an iron ladder on the way down, damaging the rungs and knocking off the cap of the fuse, The shell had been fused on the upper deck. It was immediately hoisted up again and the fuse examined by the lieutenant (G) and found correct, a cap was put on and the shell returned to its bay where it now is quite serviceable. No one was hurt, and the ladder will be repaired by the ship's staff. The work of taking in ammunition was not stopped, no one left his station, and there was no consternation."
In reply to the last part of the question, I may add, that the fuse is a percussion fuse and was fully protected for transport by means of a cap as well as by its own safety arrangements.
Dockyard Apprentices
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now in a position to give any information to the House regarding the provision of full pay for all dockyard apprentices on closed days; and will he say whether any instructions have been issued to the Royal dockyards on the matter, and, if so, in what manner and at what date?
Apprentices have generally been paid full pay for closed days, and in respect to the recent stoppage of pay in the cases of apprentices who were not at work on the day before or the day after a closed day instructions were issued as follows on the 27th ultimo: "It has been decided that all apprentices are to be granted full pay for closed days, except when they are absent without leave before or after the closed day." The instructions quoted were intended to be retrospective.
Were the instructions issued after the reply to my question in the House of Commons on the subject?
I dare say that may be so.
Naval Pensioners
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is circularising naval pensioners to come up for one month; and, if so, what is the special service these men are required to perform; whether he is aware that some of these pensioners are employed as shipwrights in His Majesty's dockyards, and will he say how it is proposed to fill their places while they are away on other duties; and will he say whether all the naval pensioners circularised are Reserve men?
Volunteers were called for from pensioners as from other classes of Reserve men for a month's service with the Fleet during manœuvres. No shipwright pensioners were embarked from Portsmouth and Chatham. I have put the questions as regards shipwrights to Devonport, but have not received the answer. All pensioners are liable for service in war up to the age of fifty-five.
Government of Ireland Bill
Borrowing Powers
asked the Prime Minister whether, if the Government of Ireland Bill becomes law, the Imperial Parliament will cease thereupon to have control over all borrowing powers of Irish local authorities; whether the Irish Parliament will have power to repeal any Clause of any Statute or Order which now limits the, borrowing powers of a local authority in Ireland; and whether the Irish Parliament will be able to alter the duties and powers of trustees which now exist in relation to investments in the stocks of local authorities in Ireland?
The control over the borrowing powers of Irish local authorities will primarily be in the hands of the Irish Parliament. The answer to the second paragraph of the question is in the affirmative. The Irish Parliament will not be able to alter the powers of trustees generally with respect to investments in stocks of Irish local authorities.
Questions
Merchant Shipping (Certificates) Bill
asked what steps the Prime Minister proposes to take in furthering the progress of the Merchant Shipping (Certificates) Bill; whether he can state when this Bill is likely to be brought forward for Second Reading; and whether the Government intend to provide the necessary facilities in order that the Bill may be passed during the present Parliamentary Session?
I hope that it will be found possible to proceed with the Merchant Shipping (Certificates) Bill at an early date and to pass it into law during the present Session.
Railways Bill
asked (47) whether the Prime Minister will state whether the railway companies of Great Britain have refused to accept the re-draft of Clause 2 of the Railways Bill as submitted to them; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take in the matter; (48) whether he proposes to take the Second Reading of the Bill this Session?
The form of Clause 2 of the Railways Bill is still under consideration. I hope it may be possible to proceed with the Bill this Session, but I cannot yet fix a date for the Second Reading.
The whole Bill?
The whole Bill.
Brussels Sugar Convention
asked whether the Prime Minister can now fix a day on which it will be possible to take the discussion on the question of the adhesion of this country to the Brussels Sugar Contention after September, 1913?
I am afraid I cannot at present name a day for the discussion of this question.
Parliamentary Returns and Reports (Summaries)
asked whether, in regard to Parliamentary Returns and Reports of a voluminous character, which, though interesting, may be often virtually inaccessible to busy Members, on account of their bulk and complexity, instructions will be given that, wherever practicable, there shall accompany each such document a summary giving a lucid account of the main lines and conclusions, and written with a certain literary attractiveness?
I fear that the suggestion, though attractive at first sight, is hardly practicable.
Finance Act, 1912–13
asked (52) whether there are any, and, if so, what precedents since 1861 and before the present Government came into office for postponing the Second Reading and Committee stage of the Finance Bill of the year until after August, or for passing the Finance Act of the year later than August; (53) whether his attention has been called to proceedings now pending in the High Court to restrain the Bank of England from deducting Income Tax from interest payable on Irish Land Stock; and whether, in view of the inconvenience caused by delay, he can now state that the Second Reading and remaining stages of the Finance Bill will be taken before the Adjournment in August?
I am not aware of any precedent. My attention has been called to the proceedings referred to. The Government propose in any case to complete the remaining stages of the Finance Bill before the August Adjournment.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of allowing adequate time, as there are a number of Amendments as to the Land Duties?
Ample time will be allowed.
Temperance (Scotland) Bill
asked whether the Prime Minister can say when it is pro-posed to take the Report stage of the Temperance (Scotland) Bill?
I fear I cannot at present give the hon. Member the information he desires.
Will it be before the Recess or afterwards?
I will make a statement later on in the week about business.
Land Reform (Formation of Committee)
asked whether the fact that certain hon. Member and ex-Members of this House have been requested by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to serve on a Committee dealing with the policy of land reform has been brought to his notice; whether the formation of the said Committee has his sanction and approval; and whether, within the lifetime of the present Parliament, it is the intention of the Government to deal with the question of the further taxation of land values on the lines advocated by the late Mr. Henry George?
asked if the inquiry arranged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to certain matters connected with land tenure in this country is the result of decisions arrived at by the Cabinet; and, as the Committee to investigate is a private one appointed by an individual Minister of the Crown, will the Prime Minister say what guarantee will exist, if the views of the Committee are officially adopted, that the facts and information on which any Report they may make is based are reliable and complete; and if the services of any section of the Civil Service in any capacity or any public information or statistics will be utilised?
My right hon. Friend has, with my approval, approached certain gentlemen, among whom are Members and ex-Members of the House, with a view to securing their services on an unofficial Committee which has been formed for the purpose of investigating the question of land reform. The Government and not the Committee will be responsible for any proposals that may ultimately be made, and will naturally obtain all such information as they consider necessary before coming to any conclusion on the subject. I am not prepared to make any statement as to the intentions of the Government.
May I ask whether public money will be spent on the operations of this Committee?
So far as I know, none.
Will the Report be published?
I cannot say.
May we take it that the statement that the Government are pledged to a single tax is quite untrue?
Yes; it is quite untrue; there is no pledge.
Why are by-elections being fought on the subject, is it part of the Government policy?
That does not rest with me.
asked whether the Prime Minister's attention has been called to a speech delivered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at Woodford, Essex, on the 29th June, and whether the views enunciated in that speech on the land system of this country have received the sanction of His Majesty's Government; and, if so, whether it is intended to embody these views in legislation?
asked whether the Prime Minister has perused a speech delivered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at Woodford on the 29th ultimo; and whether that speech is to be regarded as an utterance for which His Majesty's Government is responsible?
The views expressed by my hon. Friend in his speech at Woodford as to the necessity for land reform are shared by his colleagues. With regard to the last part of the question I must refer the hon. Member to the reply I have just given.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is his view that at this very hour the land is "shackled with the chains of feudalism"?
It seems tome to be a picturesque and not inaccurate description.
Where is the land situated which the Chancellor of the Exchequer intends, with God's help intends, to release from feudal shackles? [Interruption.] Where is the land situated—[Interruption.]
It is of no good repeating the question.
Is there any precedent for an individual Minister of the Crown appointing a Committee to deal with a subject like this?
Certainly. I said in my answer that the Committee was appointed with my sanction.
Marriage with Deceased Wife's Sister
asked whether the Prime Minister is aware that the law of this country in respect of marriage with a deceased wife's sister is in conflict with the canons and table of prohibited degrees of the Church of England; and whether, with a view to enabling persons to be at once loyal citizens and faithful members of the national church, he will cause Letters of Business to issue or take other measures to correct the existing disagreement?
I am aware of the facts stated by the hon. Member, but I am not at present prepared to take any action in the matter. Certain aspects of the subject are now under consideration.
House of Commons
Labour Members
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that a number of hon. Members have signified an intention of, under certain eventualities, ceasing to attend the sittings of the House for an indefinite period; whether he is aware of the feeling existing in the country relative to the absence from their duties of Members owing to reasons other than ill-health; and whether he will grant a day for the discussion of the conditions under which Members are entitled to draw their salaries from the public funds?
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask whether he is aware that the hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. Newman) was absent from fifty-eight divisions out of ninety taken up to Whitsuntide?
I am not aware that there is any foundation in fact for the allegations in the first and second paragraphs of the question, nor in the supplementary question. The subject can be discussed when the Vote is taken in Supply.
Does the Prime Minister consider the fact that we are now being paid makes no difference to our attendance here?
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of reviving the old rule that a Member must not be absent without leave from this House?
It seems to me a very interesting point, and the whole matter can be very well discussed when we take the Vote in Supply.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that the Vote is discussed by the House?
If it is the general desire to do so, certainly.
Autumn Session
asked whether, for the general convenience of Members of this House, he will now, or on an early day, state approximately what will be the programme of business during each week of the Autumn Session, subject, of course, to such variations as might later be found necessary?
The answer is in the negative.
Would it not be to the general convenience of this House that the Government should make a statement for a considerably longer period in advance than is at present the custom?
I propose to do so very shortly.
Questions
Public Loans (Ireland)
asked if the Prime Minister will say what loans are intended to be referred to by the expression, "Public loans" made in Ireland before the passing of this Act, in Section 2 (11) ( e ) of the Government of Ireland Bill, and, in particular, whether this expression is intended to include municipal loans?
The expression "public loans" is intended to cover any loans made in Ireland from public funds—that is, advances made from the Exchequer or out of funds raised on the guarantee of the Exchequer. It is not intended to cover loans raised by municipal bodies.
King's Bench Division (Arrears)
asked whether the Prime Minister's attention has been called to the increasing arrears in the King's Bench Division of the High Court of Justice and to the recent statements made by His Majesty's judges as to the impossibility of overtaking these arrears by the present number of judges assigned to that division; and whether he proposes to take any, and, if so what, action to relieve the congestion of business and to prevent the further accumulation of arrears?
The matter is under consideration, and I can at present make no statement with regard to it.
Colonial Office Vote
asked the Prime Minister if he will reconsider his refusal to grant another day for the discussion of the Colonial Vote?
I am afraid the number of other Votes to be discussed in Supply will prevent another day being given to the Colonial Office Vote.
May I ask, in view of the fact that out of four hours and a half allowed for the Vote, one hour was occupied by an hon. Member opposite in presenting one case?
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that much of the time for questions is taken up by the hon. Gentleman asking supplementary questions?
gave a reply which was inaudible.
Foot-And-Mouth Disease
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in regard to the cattle imported from Cork and quarantined at Hayward's Heath cattle market, he has caused any official veterinary inspection of them; if he will say if these were exported before any restrictions were imposed and the period of incubation has passed during which they could develop foot - and - mouth disease; has his attention been called to the certificate of Dr. Henry Taylor, F.R.C.V.S., certifying that these cattle and all other animals brought in contact with them are free from this disease; and will he therefore allow them to be exposed for sale at the Hayward's Heath cattle market on Tuesday, seeing that their owner is likely to suffer serious loss by their continued withdrawal from sale?
The cattle in question were exported from Ireland before any restrictions were imposed, and they are detained under observation by one veterinary inspector of the local authority. I have seen the certificates to which the hon. Member refers, but although no signs of disease have so far manifested themselves, I am advised that it would not be safe to allow them to be exposed for sale at a market on Tuesday next.
Is it a fact, as set forth in the question, that the period of incubation during which the disease can develop has not a long while passed?
I am afraid that I can only repeat what I have already said, that I should not like to be dogmatic about the period of incubation. We cannot run any risk.
Has not the period been set down as from two to ten days, ten days being the outside, and have not these cattle been in England more than ten days?
If the hon. Member wants to have instances of foot-and- mouth disease having broken out, even after a period of ten days has expired, I can give him several.
asked whether, having regard to the fact that no disease has been reported within 50 miles of Dundalk and 65 miles of Newry, these ports will be reopened for the export of cattle, as has already been done in the case of Belfast and Wexford?
As I informed the House on Friday last, I had proposed to allow animals shipped from Belfast, Cork, Londonderry, Waterford, and Wexford to be landed for slaughter at the foreign animals wharves at Bristol, Glasgow, and Liverpool. Since that time reports have been received which suggest the possibility of the existence of disease outside the scheduled area in County Dublin, and I have felt it necessary to cancel the proposed arrangement, so far as the ports of Waterford and Wexford are concerned, until the investigations which are being made with regard to the reports are completed. For the same reason, I do not think it would be desirable at present to extend the list of ports from which fat stocks may be shipped for slaughter.
Is it not a fact that the only result of the embargo on the ports named in the question will be that the cattle will be shipped through the port of Belfast, and that there is no disease whatever in the area of these two ports; and will not the right hon. Gentleman take that into consideration and remove the embargo, which simply means that the cattle will be sent by rail to Belfast?
I am not acting entirely upon my own opinion in this matter; I have the support of the Irish Department. They believe Newry is too near to the infected districts to be opened at the present moment.
Is the statement the right hon. Gentleman has just made the result of a conference with the Vice-President?
Certainly. The Vice-President and I have been in the closest conference over the week-end upon this subject.
Has any outbreak been confirmed in Ireland outside the Swords district?
Any question with regard to Ireland should be addressed to the Vice-President.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that serious apprehension has been caused to South of England stock owners owing to the reopening of Bristol Port just at the time the sheep fairs are about to commence, and, if so, will he reconsider that decision?
I do not think that arises out of this question. If the hon. Gentleman has any question to put with regard to that, I shall be glad to have notice.
Cannot the restriction be removed from the port of Westport, where there is no trace of cattle disease; a large number of cattle are there ready for shipment, and it will be a great hardship upon these poor people if they are not shipped?
No, Sir. The situation is too uncertain for me to add any ports to the list I have already read out.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received urgent representations from the South of Ireland Cattle Trade Association that cattle should be allowed to be exported to a centre in England where they can be slaughtered?
Yes, I have had representations made to me, not only from England but from Ireland, but I cannot alter the decision at which I have arrived.
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture in Ireland whether any outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Ireland outside the Swords district has been confirmed?
Since I spoke on Friday there has been one additional case at Swords.
Where?
Swords.
As the area is the same, may I ask whether, in regard to the ports which are nearly 200 miles distant from that place he sees any reason for continuing the very severe restrictions at present in existence?
Yes, I am afraid I do. As I have said, there has been one additional outbreak at Swords. There is a case under investigation at Waterford, a very curious case, about which I require further information. At all events, that case amply vindicates the stringency of the regulations.
What has happened in regard to the alleged case at Limerick?
We are still tracing the case at Limerick.
Is it a case?
It is a case at Wakefield, but whether the animal came from Limerick or Waterford is what is being traced.
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he can say whether Scotland has still a clean bill of health in regard to this disease, and does he propose to make any general statement?
So far, Scotland has a clean bill of health. I much regret to say that late on Friday night we received a telegram stating, that foot-and-mouth disease existed amongst pigs at Old Malden. The report was confirmed on Saturday morning by the veterinary inspector who visited the premises, and subsequently by the Board's chief veterinary officer. The pigs were at once slaughtered, and inquiries are now proceeding with a view to discover the source of infection and to trace out any animals from and to which it may have been conveyed. Up to the present there is nothing to show how the animals became infected. In view of this outbreak, an Order was made on Saturday night prohibiting the movement of animals along, over, or across a highway within a radius of approximately twelve miles from Maiden. The Order embraces the whole of the county of London, and it has had the effect of prohibiting the holding of the market for live cattle, sheep, and swine at Islington today. I greatly regret the loss and inconvenience which the Order will occasion, but until any unknown centres of disease in the Metropolitan area have been located the aggregation and movement of animals would be attended with considerable danger. The Order will not materially affect the supply of meat which will be available, but to avoid any difficulty under this head I propose in the course of two or three days to arrange for the admission of animals to be taken direct to slaughter-houses for slaughter there. No further outbreaks have occurred either in the Cumberland or West Riding areas, but one report is under investigation. No fresh outbreak has occurred in the area originally scheduled in Lancashire and Cheshire, but a highly suspicious case is under observation at Basford, in Cheshire, outside the scheduled area, and as a precautionary measure an Order was issued yesterday prohibiting the holding of markets and the movement of animals out of those parts of the county of Cheshire not already under restriction. The disease has also been discovered in some cattle and sheep at Blackpool, which formed part of a consignment of Irish animals, and were placed under restrictions on the 30th ultimo. They have been isolated and kept under observation, and I am hopeful that the precautions taken may have been successful in preventing the spread of the disease, but by way of precaution an Order has been made and issued prohibiting the movement of animals over an area round the town of Blackpool. Six additional outbreaks of disease have occurred within the limits of the Northumberland area, and two reports are under investigation. May I suggest to those who write and talk about the disease that they should not describe it as "Cattle Plague"? That is an entirely different disease, and I fear that the rise of the phrase may convey a wrong impression abroad. Perhaps I may also be allowed to read the following disquieting telegram which was received by the Board from their port veterinary inspector at Liverpool on Saturday morning, 6th July: "Examination one carcass head of cattle in meat office, St. John's Market, Liverpool, shows lesions of foot-and-mouth disease in the hard palate. Further evidence destroyed by the removal of tongue, lower lip, part of upper lip, and right cheek before leaving Ireland. Head arrived from Waterford with nine others in bag morning 4th July, consigned to Park Brothers, offal merchants, Trowbridge Street, Liverpool, delivery on landing to Calland, 342a, Scotland Road, Liverpool. Heads sent by Woodman and Wilson, O'Connell Street, Waterford, Ireland.—Berry." The case to which the right hon. Gentleman referred has been traced back to Limerick. Investigations are being carried on in this and in the Waterford case by officers of the Irish Department.
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture a question, of which I have given him private-notice, namely, Whether, in view of the fact that no case of foot-and-mouth disease or of any infectious disease amongst cattle has been reported from the county of Sligo or any portion of the province of Con-naught, he can now see his way to remove the embargo upon the exportation of cattle from, Sligo and declare this seaport open?
I am afraid that under present circumstances it would not be safe to declare the port open.
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture a question, of which I have given him private notice, namely, Whether, seeing that Wexford has a large export trade in cattle, sheep, and swine, and also a considerable dead meat trade by her own steamers; and seeing that Wexford dealers have several hundreds of fat animals on hand for shipment against which there is not the slightest suspicion of foot-and-mouth disease, and seeing that Wexford county has had no case of foot-and-mouth disease for a very long period, probably over forty years, can he give any reason why Wexford should not be exempt from the Animals (Landing from Ireland) Order, like Cork, Belfast, and Londonderry; and, if not, will he say when the Order will cease to apply to Wexford?
I am afraid I can only give the same reply in regard to Wexford that I have given in regard to several other Irish ports. We cannot see our way to exempt animals from Wexford.
Has any case been discovered in Wexford?
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether any steps are being taken to trace the attempted fraud, to which he has just referred, which has been committed in Ireland by the removal of the affected parts of diseased animals prior to their being sent to this country?
Yes. Immediately the officers of the Board of Agriculture here got news of it we communicated with the Irish Department. We have had our officers on the track of such evidence as we can acquire, and which we are now accumulating, and the Irish Department have been doing the same.
Bearing in mind the importance of the matter to this country, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is being left entirely to the Irish Department, and whether anything is being done through the medium of our own police or otherwise, to track down these fraudulent offenders?
I do not wish to give the impression that we are leaving the matter to the Irish Department. We have carried the thing through a considerable distance, and in Ireland the Irish officers are doing their best to track down such evidence as they can lay their hands on. No means will be lost by either Department to find the culprits.
Did the right hon. Gentleman intend to convey to the House that the animals in question arrived in this country in the condition described? Can he say whether the mutilation took place after the animals came to this country or in Ireland?
The only information that I have conveyed to the House is that which has reached me from our veterinary officer, who says that these parts of the animals were removed before they left Ireland.
Port of London
Cancellation of Royal Visit
Can the Prime Minister give us the reasons why he has felt bound to advise the King to cancel his engagement to open the Royal Albert Dock Extension on the 17th of this month, to the great disappointment of the whole of London, and especially of the East End, and can he say whether the King himself is not prepared to fulfil his engagement if not prevented by his Ministers?
Upon a review of all the circumstances, which I do not think it would be desirable at this moment to discuss, it seemed to the Government that it would be inexpedient that the King should fulfil his engagement.
Did the Government confer with the Port Authority before advising the King?
No.
Business of the House
May I ask the Prime Minister if he will now state the order of the Bills to be taken to-morrow, and whether he can make any further statement in regard to business?
To-morrow we propose to take the Public Offices Sites Bill, the Royal Scottish Museum Bill, the Inebriates Bill, and the Mental Deficiency Bill. With regard to the general order of business, I will make a further statement on Wednesday.
Is the Government going to keep a House to-morrow?
We shall do our utmost as far as our legislation is concerned.
When is it proposed to take the Second Reading of the Budget?
Next week, I hope. I will make a definite statement on Wednesday.
Can the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his decision about taking the Division on the Franchise Bill on Friday, in view of the fact that Unionists from the North of Ireland have to be absent?
I have already shown a desire to meet the convenience of the hon. Member and his Friends in that matter. As at present advised I do not see my way to alter the arrangement, but I would rather defer giving a final answer until Wednesday.
I may say, apart altogether from the special reason given by my hon. Friend, that two and a half days appear to us quite inadequate for the Bill.
Bill Presented
Territorial Force (Ballot) Bill
"To amend and apply the Militia Ballot Acts to the Territorial Force." Presented by Sir SAMUEL SCOTT; supported by Mr. Ashley, Viscount Castlereagh, Viscount Helmsley, Colonel Rawson, and Mr. Greene; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 274.]
Franchise and Registration Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
4.0 P.M.
I have been asked to move the Second Reading of this Bill rather in my capacity as the bereaved parent of a former measure. I am glad to have the opportunity of supporting a Bill which differs widely and, I think, advantageously from my own measure of six years ago. At that time I was instructed to draw a Bill dealing with all the anomalies of Plural Voting, whilst leaving the system of registration and franchise altogether untouched. I believe that the Bill which we then produced, at all events in the shape in which it left this House, would have been sufficient and efficient for its purpose, if it had had a longer and happier career in another place. But it was necessarily complicated, and I had to adjust my machinery to our existing electoral laws, by which the people are supposed to be enfranchised, but by which, as a matter of fact, they are largely excluded from the franchise. I envy the good fortune of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Education in having the opportunity of introducing a Bill which is shorter in text and simpler in plan, but at the same time wider in scope than my own effort of six years ago. I envy him also the different reception with which his Bill has met, because mine was pursued by a relentless hostility to the moment of its end elsewhere. [An HON. MEMBER: "So will this one be."] From my recollection this Bill has met with very little more than cooing criticism. At all events the whole Opposition voted against the introduction of my measure, whereas not more than fifty were found to vote against the introduction of this Bill. The right hon. Member for Walton (Mr. F. E. Smith) used in his speech almost unusual caution and discretion. He made no effort to prove that this Bill was so bad that it ought never to have been drafted or brought before the House. He used the almost regretful argument that, in a crowded Session like the present, it was possible that there might not be sufficient time available for a measure which had obvious merits. He then treated it throughout as if it were the curate's egg, and I half expected to hear him say, "Parts of it are good, m'lud." He seemed, too, to evince a very strong desire for immediate and simultaneous redistribution. He would have admitted no doubt, if he had been asked, that redistribution had never been included in a Franchise Bill previously, and it has never immediately accompanied it in practice. The right hon. Gentleman answered his own demand himself, because he proved to his own satisfaction, and to that of his Friends, that the introduction of a fourth great measure in this Session would be not only impossible, but I think he would have said—an insult. I am afraid, therefore, he will have to possess his reforming soul in patience, satisfied, I hope, even if I do not expect it, with the declared intention of His Majesty's Government to introduce and carry into law a Redistribution Bill before and in time for the next General Election. I think he would have admitted that by the time the present Bill has assumed something like its final shape in this House there will be sufficient material for the guidance of the Boundary Commissioners, and for the necessary preliminaries to any redistribution.
I have never been able to understand why a certain number of hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to think that we as a Government or as a party are opposed to or dislike redistribution. It is quite true that all these rearrangements of boundaries must give rise to awkward questions and local jealousies. But I should have thought that the present condition of our electoral areas, owing partly to growth and partly to the migration of population, have become such a scandal that the whole country would gladly have welcomed their readjustment. I have no objection myself—indeed, I should warmly welcome proposals for one vote one value. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why do not you make the proposal?"] I want to see them both. I hope to see them both in operation before the next General Election. After the speeches which have been made we shall be hopeful of the co-operation of hon. Gentlemen opposite when we come to measures which will make some approach to equality of electoral districts. Surely it cannot be imagined that it gives any pleasure to us to see the disproportion between, say, Canterbury, with its 4,000 voters, and Walthamstow with its 45,000. In fact, there seems to be good material going to waste in the latter constituency. If it were divided we might be able to duplicate the Solicitor-General. The need for redistribution being admitted in all parts of the House, I think we ought to welcome the fact that its attainment is going to be greatly facilitated by the passage of the Home Rule Bill.
The electoral conditions of Ireland have always been a stumbling block to English redistribution. It is admitted that Ireland to-day is over-represented in this House in proportion to her population, though at the time of the Union she was under-represented. I have often thought that the desire of the Unionist party for the reduction of Irish representation was more due to the opinion than the numbers of Ireland's population. So long as the Act of Union remains unamended or unmodified with the consent of the Irish people I personally should have found great difficulty in assenting to any proposal which would have altered the numbers of the Irish Members prescribed in that instrument. The Act of Union in its Preamble, I think, is called a treaty. That it was such nobody would now be found to deny. Until that treaty is revised with the assent of the representatives of its signatories, I do not think that the United Kingdom would be justified in abrogating its trust. By the Act of Union the representation of 100 Members was secured to Ireland in this House. I believe that we would be compelled in justice and honesty to mainatin that number unless and until, as is happily now the case, you are relieved by the assent of the representatives of the majority of the Irish people from your obligation in exchange for a renewal of that self-government which they once enjoyed.
The result of the Home Rule Bill is going to be a reduction of Irish Members in this House which goes far beyond the wildest dreams in the past of hon. Members opposite. In future it will be reduced to forty-two, and then the field will be open, without the former complications, to proceed with the readjustment of our own electoral areas, even the reduction of the number of our Members. I need not for a moment defend what I have always regarded as a scandal, and which even hon. Members opposite have not been prepared to deny was an anomaly. It is often said that our only interest in this matter arises from the supposition—it may be a true supposition—that the majority of plural voters are opposed to our political views. I can only say that that supposition has had very little to do with my attitude in the matter It is almost wholly due to the expressed views of hon. Members opposite. I remember the late Sir Frederick Dixon-Hartland, who was accounted an expert in these matters, making a speech in which he said that he was a warm supporter of plural voting. It was, he said, because he knew of many constituencies in the country where, if plural voting had not existed, the Conservative party would have had no-representation in this House of Commons. If that is the case, surely we have some ground for complaint. If it is admitted that the plural voter is hostile or disadvantageous to us, then I think it carries with it the admission that for more than a quarter of a century the Opposition have been enjoying an electoral advantage to which they were not entitled.
Hon. Members cannot have it both ways. They cannot argue that we wish to abolish the plural voter, because he is hostile to us, without at the same time admitting that they wish to retain him because he is profitable to them. I think we may cry quits on the question, and proceed to reform on the basis of reason and judgment. I am convinced that the accident of the duplicate qualification and the plural voting now existing was never present as a possibility to the minds of the framers of the Reform Bill of 1884. It certainly played no large part in the Debates; on that measure to all of which I was a listener in the gallery. It received very little attention or discussion at that time, and indeed it was not until the Boundary Commissioners had done their work, and the Redistribution Bill had been produced and carried that the full horror and absurdity of the situation became evident. A great many people talk as if the present system of plural voting was the result of a deliberate intention to give greater electoral power to men of wealth and position, and with a stake in the country; large manufacturers, say, or men who employ a great number of their fellows. It is nothing of the kind. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Walton Division fell into error on this point. He said in his speech that plural voting might be defended on the ground of political science. He accidentally and unfortunately forgot to mention the text-book in which we can find that defence. He suggested that it might be worthy of consideration whether the individual who employs a thousand men or pays half a million in Death Duties might not be entitled to more votes than one. It is not quite clear how the individual who pays such Death Duties is going to vote—even once.
The whole suggestion was absolutely novel, and has no application whatever to the present law which we desire to amend. No man to-day can obtain a second vote, or even a single vote, on the ground of the employment that he gives or the taxes that he pays. Is it suggested that the Opposition, when in course of time they transfer themselves from the benches opposite to these benches, are going to put forward a policy that voting capacity of an individual is going to be created according to his wealth? That is certainly a new reading of "one vote one value," and is rather in the nature of an endowment of plutocracy. If that is the policy of the Tory party, I admit that it is a good thing that we know it in time, for I think it very desirable that it should be discussed at the earliest possible moment, and no doubt will be on an Amendment which will be put down in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walton, or one of his colleagues. It has, however, no relation whatever to the existing state of affairs. The present situation is the result of a series of unforseen accidents. Plural voting is not attached to personal wealth, but only to realty, or the occupation of land or of houses, and even then the law takes no account of the value or size of the possessions, but only of their locality. The Duke of Sutherland, if he had a vote—which indeed he will have under our Bill—though he owns the whole of the county from which he takes his name, would only have there one vote, while the humble cottar on his estate, if he has a holding which crosses the boundary from Sutherlandshire into Ross-shire will have attained two votes—the result of the accident of that electoral delimitation.
If a man has a house in the country and his business is in a county town in the same division he has one vote. If the county town be a Parliamentary borough he has two votes. If his interest in the Parliamentary borough is that of ownership and not of occupation, even though he owns half or the whole of that borough he has no vote there at all. If a man owning a factory or business premises chooses to turn them into a limited liability company for personal or other reasons he ceases to have any vote, because neither the ownership nor the occupation of property held in common by the issue of shares gives a vote to any of those who have an interest in the concern. The fact is that the whole thing is utterly illogical. It has no relation whatever to the myth of a stake in the country. It is the accidental result of the division of this country into practically single-member districts under the Redistribution Bill of 1885. Where the arbitrary line of the Commissioners happens to cross property there the owner and occupier both double their voting capacity by that Act. Of course, the argument as to plural voting in local government, that is where you are voting for more than one local authority, is on a totally different basis.
A man who has an occupation qualification in Surrey and in Sussex may well be entitled to one, not more than one, vote for each of these county councils, because there he is electing for different rating and administrating authorities, by each of which his interest may be detrimentally or beneficially affected. But if he votes in Surrey and in Sussex for Parliamentary candidates, he is voting twice for the same authority, though, of course, for different members of it. I have always personally believed that the Parliamentary franchise is really and rightly based on manhood, and that a single individual is only entitled to a single vote. There is a confusion of mind which induces a number of people to believe that the qualification for the vote depends on the payment of rates or of taxes. That arises from the necessity for electoral purposes of localising your vote, and the possession or occupation of immobile property is often thought to be the easiest method of localisation. The payment of taxes, direct or indirect, has nothing to do with the matter at all. You cannot strike a man off the register if you are able to prove, or even if he admits, he never paid any taxes in his life, if so rare and fortunate an individual is to be found. Even rating is not a necessary qualification, though the nonpayment of certain due rates may at times act as a disqualification. There are thousands of men on our registers who do not pay, and who are hot required to pay, rates. There is the Service voter and the lodger who are not rated. There are many freeholders whose property is let upon long leases who are wholly exempt from rates. The fact is that the rate-book was adopted in the past as an existing and convenient geographical index of the residents in any given district. It is a list made and corrected with some care at least every half-year for other purposes and made up at the public expense. It is therefore not surprising that in earlier days it was adopted as a convenient basis for the Parliamentary franchise. That, and I believe that alone, is the connection between rating and registration.
I am convinced myself that there is a long-sustained desire for this reform on the part of the great majority of the voters in the country. I think the House would be well advised to make this reasonable approach towards greater equality amongst the electorate. I do not know how far it is desirable on Second Reading to discuss omissions which may have been made in this Bill on matters which some hon. Members think should be included. It was quite clear that no Government Bill could, on its introduction, have included any proposal in the direction of female suffrage. The omission of that proposal from this Bill has so raised the ire of my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry (Mr. D. Mason) that he actually tried to prevent the introduction of a Bill on which admittedly, if he is able to secure a majority of Members to agree with his views, he will be able to insert the Amendment which is so dear to his heart. I cannot believe that many of the fifty Gentlemen who supported him in that attitude did it on that ground. Possibly that was the reason which actuated the Noble Lord the Member for Newton Division. It is premature to discuss to-day what will happen on this question in Committee, but I cannot believe that this House as at present constituted is prepared to add 10,500,000 women at this moment to our voting roll, with all the consequences which that logically entails.
Does the right hon. Gentleman speak on behalf of his colleague the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he says that?
I am speaking for myself and for some of my colleagues. I do not think he can imagine that those who are opposed to the larger proposition will at this moment be prepared to adopt the lesser one, which must lead certainly and immediately to the greater extension—the lesser proposal of the admission of some propertied women to the register just at the moment when we are abolishing the property qualification for men. My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, I believe, threatened that if female suffrage was not included in this measure during the Committee stage he would vote against the Third Reading. Surely it would be an illogical proceeding on his part to betray the sex which he adorns in the supposed interest to the sex which he adores. [Laughter.] If, as I have no doubt he believes is the case, the majority of the male voters in this country share his views, surely the addition of 2,500,000 of them to the register would enhance his chance of future success. Therefore, with great humility, I should advise him to support the passage of this measure at every stage. There has been some comment and some criticism that we have not attempted in this Bill any reform of the local government franchise. In that we are amply justified, both by precedent and by pressure of time. No Parliamentary Reform Bill has ever been brought into this House or carried through it that has ever attempted to revise the numerous confusions in our local government electorate. The fact that in this Bill we are giving a greatly simplified method of revision has induced us at the same time to give to local government electors the benefit of that whilst leaving their qualification untouched.
I hope by another measure within the life of this Parliament the local government franchise will, and I should have thought with the assent of hon. Members opposite, be simplified and extended. I have always thought that there were some women who could make out a real hardship and who had a strong case for further representation on, and further voting power for, some of these local bodies. When the time comes for that measure I am more likely to find myself in the Lobby with my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry. I turn now to the provisions for greater uniformity of qualification and the simplification of our method of registration. There I find all over the House a greater volume of agreement. It has been suggested that the voting age should be raised to twenty-five. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walton came to that subject he came up, like Agag, delicately. He gave us no indication of whether he and his Friends were about to support a proposal for so large a disfranchisement, though I quite recognise that there is much that may be said on both sides of that subject. But the right hon. Gentleman approved altogether, and quite warmly, of our simplified method of registration. Everybody admits that today it is complex, anomalous, and very often non-understandable. He was a little inclined to deny that there was any very great volume of demand for any great change in the franchise. I think hon. Members on both sides of the House make a mistake to talk of this Bill as if it was a great extension of the franchise to new classes of electors. It is really nothing of the sort. There are only two new classes who in any way can be said to be added to the register under this Bill—male domestic servants living in their masters' houses, and sons living with their fathers or in the houses of relatives. No other category of new voters is brought in. What we wish to do is to enable a man who is already really qualified in law to get sooner on the register and to remain there more continuously in spite of the occasional necessity of the transfer of his home or residence. The changes we propose are almost wholly those of simplification, and I believe they are greatly desired by actual and potential voters. We are going to get rid of the special qualification of the Service voter, of the lodger—in his case we eliminate the necessity of the annual claim—we get rid of the conflicting practices of revising barristers as to the annual value necessary for the lodger and also of the doubts as to the latchkey voters, and we shall be relieved in future on those doubts as to the value of premises for a claim for joint residence, because all limitations of value are abolished by this Bill.
In November last the Prime Minister, in answer to a question, said our Bill would be founded upon purely residential qualifications. That is always our intention, and is so still. But it is true that in deference to representations we have put into the Bill the alternative of occupation. We put it in for no other purpose than to meet the possibility of certain hard cases. We have always assumed that the result of this measure and the natural desire of the voters would be to vote as a rule at the place to which they belong—that is, their residence or home—and this further provision has only been inserted in order to relieve cases possible, but rare, in which there might be a valid, if temporary, objection to one voter and not to the other. Since this Bill was introduced and published and considered by public experts in our electoral law, the suggestion has been made, suspicion has arisen, that owing to the accidental concurrence of the retention of the occupying qualification with the abolition of the qualifying value, there is a possibility, some people think even a probability, that we are creating a power for the unlimited manufacture of bogus votes under the occupation franchise. I need say nothing was further from our thoughts or intentions. I am quite sure that the whole House, irrespective of party, would desire to avoid the introduction of such an undesirable element into our electoral life and law. If that suspicion should turn out to be well founded, we shall invite the assistance of the House as a whole to remove so great a danger, which might even become a scandal, from the text of the Bill. In any case, the reduction to one or two of the twenty franchises discovered by the late Sir Charles Dilke must be a valuable reform which ought to have the support of every Member of the House. The simplified method of registration will be recognised as a boon by anyone who has been under the unfortunate necessity of putting forward a claim to a vote.
No one will defend the anachronisms of the present system, under which it is possible for a voter to be disfranchised for nearly two and a half years because he moves from one street to another in a town which is a divided borough constituency, or that it is impossible for the man who in June or July receives Poor Law relief to get on the register until January, 1915. I think it is time we began to repent of some of our absurdities, but I do not believe that most of those absurdities can be avoided by any method except by that which we suggest of a practically continous register. Some qualifying period of residence is, of course, essential. We have taken the period of six months; the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Front Bench opposite approved of that period. I do not myself think any shorter one would be safe. With our new system of quinquennial Parliaments, I think they are very likely to acquire the habit of running their full term. Therefore it would be very much more easy to forecast, with some accuracy, when a General Election is likely to take place. When this comes, if you have too short a qualifying period, there is always the danger that where a majority in a particular constituency is narrow and money is plentiful, there will be something in the nature of a bogus transfer of votes for the specific object of that particular election. We all remember how during the first Midlothian campaign faggot votes were created in that county, and such transactions can never be wholly prevented where ingenuity and wealth are both present for the purpose which happily was not realised of defeating Mr. Gladstone. I am sure the House would desire that these things should be prevented as far as possible under the law by the insistence of the six months' period and the one month's probationary period, and this with the abolition of the plural vote I believe will provide fair and accurate safeguards against the continuance of gerrymandering. With a system of continuous registration it will be possible for a man to obtain a vote for his new home after a period of seven months, and provision is inserted in the Bill by which he shall not be deprived of his vote in the place he has left. The rules we have placed in our Schedule and the machinery there set up will, I think, be found easy and adequate. Several hon. Members have shed a vicarious tear or two about the disappearance of the revising barristers, but I do not think we shall miss their activities as part of our electoral machine. I think their highly-trained and specialised knowledge would be altogether wasted in the future upon the merely trivial questions which will now alone require to be settled, and which can easily be settled by the County Courts. I believe in the future objections will be very few because we are abolishing the grounds of so many of them. Such cases as those raised in the Kent v . Fittall case will disappear, because the latchkey voter will be unknown and such questions as qualifying property or the qualification of a lodger or for joint residence will not arise. There will be no dispute in regard to the payment of rates.
The two main objections which can arise will be that a man is not twenty-one years of age, or that he is not resident at the place for which he claims, or has not fulfilled the six months' qualifying period. Those are not legal questions, and they are questions of easily ascertainable fact, which can be determined by the County Courts or by the town clerks with a right of appeal to the County Court. Therefore, the number of objections will be very small first of all, because few men will be such fools as to put forward a claim when they cannot fulfil its simple conditions, and few agents will be so unwise as to make numerous objections which are certain to fail, and on which if they do fail they will be condemned to pay the costs. One of the best results of this Bill will be a new and helpful desire that everyone who is qualified shall get on to the register and remain there for the longest possible period, and in regard to the very few who will be disqualified there will be a disinclination to put forward claims that can easily be defeated. Whoever the voters of the future are to be it is surely desirable that their means of access to the register should be as rapid, certain, and as simple as the law can provide. This, I am convinced, will be the result, as it is the intention of this Bill, and on that ground alone I think it deserves the support of every hon. Member of this House.
I beg to move as an Amendment to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, "this House declines to proceed with a measure on the most important aspect of which the Government responsible for its introduction is admittedly not agreed, which leaves the most glaring inequalities of our representative system unremedied, and which is framed solely in the electoral interest of one political party."
I think the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has rather emphasised the very important character of the Bill which is before the House by the fact that the Government have thought it necessary that a second explanatory statement should be made about it on the Second Reading. That course is only adopted with Bills of the very first importance, which this Bill obviously is. There will be many hon. Members on both sides of the House who will desire to discuss this Bill, and I feel sure when the Prime Minister makes his statement in relation to business to-morrow he will recognise that fact and allow the House some reasonable time for considering the many aspects which this Bill presents. I hardly think the right hon. Gentleman was justified in assuming that this Bill would receive practically the assent of those on this side of the House, because of the moderation of the speech made upon the introduction of the Bill by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Walton Division (Mr. F. E. Smith). It is not a usual assumption in this House when a new Bill is introduced of a very complicated character, and points of great difficulty have to be explained, and when there is nothing in print, and although the explanation of the Minister for Education was as clear as could possibly be wished for, there certainly was not material, and there never is material on the introduction of a Bill to discover all its faults. There are some faults which lie very much on the surface, and nearly all these were referred to by my right hon. Friend. But his moderation must by no means be taken by the right hon. Gentleman opposite as an indication that this Bill will not be seriously opposed on this side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of a point which is in everybody's mind with regard to this Bill, namely, the remarkable omission that there is no mention of redistribution. I understand that we have now got a definite assurance that before there is a General Election a Redistribution Bill will be introduced. [HON. MEMBERS: "And passed."]
Yes, passed and brought into operation.
That is pledging the House and not the Government.
I can only pledge the Government.
But the Government cannot undertake to pass it.
The Government can only undertake to use its powers to induce the House to pass it.
If that is so, why does the right hon. Gentleman not promise to introduce a Clause into this Bill providing that it shall not become operative until a Redistribution Bill is passed? I do not think in any other way can the spirit of the pledge he has given to the House be fulfilled. I have no doubt some hon. Members on this side of the House will give the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of making his pledge good on that matter.
Will you allow the House of Lords to pass it?
The hon. Gentleman forgets the Parliament Act. If the House of Lords had not been deprived of its powers, the situation would not have been what it is to-day. In regard to Ireland, an hon. Member remarked that by treaty you were bound to give Ireland a hundred Members. Admitting that to be the fact, that does not deprive this House of the power of securing for other parts of the United Kingdom their fair share of representation. It is perfectly competent for this House to maintain the letter of the law, keeping within that treaty and at the same time keeping the Irish figure at 100. The figure of 100 was then proportionate to the population of Ireland.
No.
No, no, it was more.
That greatly strengthens my case. Ireland was given then less representation in proportion, and she now has a great deal more, and therefore at any rate we should not be breaking the spirit of the Act of Union by desiring to give Ireland a fair representation according to her population. The difficulty which the Secretary of State for the Colonies raises is purely a matter of arithmetic, because it would be possible to so increase the representation of England and Scotland under the treaty so as to obtain a fair representation. There is nothing to prevent the numbers being increased, because the number of 670 Members of this House is not fixed by the Constitution, and from that point of view really it is simply a matter of arithmetic. We can still keep to the letter of the treaty, and increase the representation of England and Scotland, and if we can do that we can deal with the question satisfactorily to all parts of the Kingdom. Therefore to make much of the point that Irish representation in this House after the passing of the Home Rule Bill would be less than what would be asked for under a scheme of equal representation is an argument which surely the right hon. Gentleman does not put forward seriously. Surely the right hon. Gentleman cannot contend that to have forty-two Members here under the conditions imposed by the Home Rule Bill, when Ireland is to have separate representation for all her own affairs, is an equivalent figure to be regarded as if this House administered the whole affairs of the United Kingdom. That is an absurd argument, if I may venture to say so.
There is one important matter arising out of the right hon. Gentleman's speech which I should like to mention, and that is that he made light of all future difficulties which this Bill is going to create in registration. Exactly the same note rang through the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who introduced this Bill, for he said everything was going to be so easy and so simple. We have heard that argument before. We heard it in the case of the Land Taxes and in regard to the Insurance Act. But they have not turned out so simple as their authors supposed. The right hon. Gentleman, in his own speech, has pointed out the effects which the Plural Voting Acts have had, and which were quite different from those which were anticipated by their authors. Does he not suppose difficulties will arise under this franchise, and does he suppose it is possible for him or me or for anyone on either side of the House to know what those difficulties are going to be, or foresee all the difficulties that will arise. Difficulties always arise when you are dealing with an immense number of people under an enormous variety of conditions. Under those circumstances you must create difficulties, and those difficulties are so varied and cover such an immense area that it is impossible to see all the trouble which may arise. The right hon. Gentleman will find that there will be a good deal of trouble if this Bill ever comes into operation. I think there is one fatal vice owing to those proceedings which will be present in everybody's mind, and that is the time at which this Bill is introduced. Here we are within a month of the normal end of the Session with a mass of undigested matter. Even the Budget has not received its Second Reading, and we have before us two immense Bills, one of which has only just been read a second time, and has not reached the Committee stage, whilst the other has only had the first Clause and part of the second discussed in Committee. Notwithstanding these facts, we are now asked at this stage of the Session to consider the Second Reading of this Bill, and both the right hon. Gentlemen opposite talk as if they intended to pass this Bill. They appear to think there is some hope of their doing so. I daresay one of them will tell the House when they hope to pass it. In my view, our proceedings simply mark another stage in the chaos created by the Parliament Act. Our Parliamentary year has become now a simple round of hustle and congestion from end to end. What are we driven to? The Second Reading of every important Bill in every Parliament has got to be hustled through by a certain date quite irrespective of the time which the Bill itself may require.
There is one point in regard to this Bill which differentiates it from the other Bills to which I have referred. It has been understood from a statement and pledge given by the Prime Minister—it certainly is understood by the advocates of female suffrage—that one of the main objects of introducing this Bill is to give the House an opportunity of inserting, if they desire to do so, in Committee an Amendment extending the franchise to women. When is that Amendment going to be introduced? Under the Parliament Act, a Bill is to become law withing two years of the passing of the Second Reading. What is to be the procedure here? This is a Bill nominally to extend the franchise to 2,500,000 or 3,000,000 men, and it is to pass its Second Reading at the end of this week; but it is known by the Government that the House is to be given a special opportunity of moving an Amendment to extend the franchise to 10,500,000 women. Supposing that is done, what is the consequence? And when is that to be done? It can be done next November or next March, and, if that happens, we are today merely providing a peg on which a great revolutionary measure is to be founded. The peg is brought into the House to-day, and the whole Bill is to get through this week, although the real measure of importance is not to be introduced until some date at present unknown—perhaps November and perhaps March. That is one of the consequences of the Parliament Act. I can imagine myself no greater confusion of the forms of this House as being possible. It seems to be the fact I have just stated emphasises the responsibility which falls upon the Government in this matter. They are introducing a great Franchise Bill, and the greatest question on the franchise is whether the women are to have the vote or not. The Government give no lead to the House in that matter. It is left to the House of Commons. Is not that abrogating the duty of a Government on a great national question? We all know, of course, the Members of the Government are not agreed upon it. Until the Government are agreed, I would suggest they should not bring in a Franchise Bill. When they are agreed, the House will be ready to listen to and to weigh the advice they may give on that great question. In the meantime, all we can say is this Bill is another instalment of the process with which the House is becoming absolutely familiar, the process of taking up a bit of a subject and dealing with it.
I must say I do not think any of God's creatures were ever more highly endowed with the instinct of self-preservation than the present Government. They are wonderfully guided by their instinct as to what parts of these great questions they should take up and what parts they should let alone. What was our experience when they dealt with the question of the Constitution? They passed the Parliament Act which dealt with just so much of the constitutional question as was of interest to the Radical party. Then we have the Home Rule Bill, dealing with a very great question of devolution, just so much devolution as is necessary to retain the Irish vote. Then we have the Welsh Church Bill, dealing with the great question of the disestablishment and disendowment of the Church of England in Wales, just so much disestablishment and disendowment as is necessary to secure the Welsh vote. Then we have the Trades' Dispute Act, just a minimum sop that will satisfy the Members of the Labour party. And now we have the great question of electoral reform, and we are to have just so much electoral reform as is demanded by the party agents of hon. Gentlemen opposite. May I ask the House to consider for one moment what electoral reforms are necessary? They are very shortly enumerated. The first and most important, judging from the speech delivered by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and also within the knowledge of every man in this country, is redistribution. The inequalities under the present distribution of seats are infinitely greater than any of those dealt with by this Bill. There are two points in connection with that arising out of the Debate on the introduction of the Bill which rather struck me. The first was the excuse given by the President of the Board of Educacation for not dealing with redistribution. He said they could not deal with it until possessed of the experience and of the figures which this Bill would furnish as to the new electorate. Almost in the same breath, literally in the very next sentence, he proceeded to make a statement as to the relative positions of certain constituencies, and he did it, not on the number of voters, but on population. That must recall to hon. Gentlemen present in the House to-day the fact that all former Redistribution Bills have been based on population. I daresay we can also all easily remember that we had a new Census only last year. We are therefore in a peculiarly favourable position for dealing with redistribution upon the basis of the new Census, and the excuse of the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely valueless.
There is another feature which makes the Government's position on redistribution even more ridiculous, and that is their attitude on university representation. What was the reason the right hon. Gentleman gave for depriving the universities, of their representation in this House? He only gave one reason, and it was that the number of voters was so small: they only averaged 5,000. Is that a matter of redistribution, or is it a matter of registration? Here we have the Government proposing, on their own showing, to deal with this great matter in two parts. A Bill is now brought in to deal with matters of registration and qualification. They promise at a later date to bring in another Bill to deal with redistribution, which relates to the number of electors which is to command representation. But in this Registration and Qualification Bill they introduce a special Clause disfranchising the universities simply on the ground that they have insufficient electors. If there ever was a case where a Government could be convicted of bringing in a measure which was gerrymandered in their own interest and which did not deal in a broad national spirit with the question for which they are legislating, this is one. Take it on their own showing. The hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) represents 3,800 electors, and my hon. Friend the Member for the Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities represents 12,000 electors. Yet the Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities are to be disfranchised, and my hon. Friend is to lose his seat because he has only 12,000 electors.
How many of those electors are resident? This is a residential qualification that is being set up.
If I saw a point in the hon. Member's question, I would answer it; but I do not. I cannot see it has anything to do with the argument I am putting forward. Even under the Government's own Bill, there is an occupation as well as a residential qualification. Here we have 12,000 voters who are to be disfranchised because they are not sufficiently numerous, and 3,800 voters are still to retain their rights and send a Member to this House. Surely, if this question of redistribution is to be dealt with—and we are all agreed it should be dealt with—it should be dealt with as a whole, and the question of universities should be at once taken out of this Bill. It is no part of this Bill, and, if it is to be dealt with at all, it should be dealt with as part of a redistribution Bill with the other constituencies in the country. Then the right hon. Gentleman hopes this Bill is going to abolish registration anomalies. There is no doubt it does, and I think both sides of the House will agree that is a matter which requires to be dealt with. The registration anomalies are admitted by everybody who has had any experience of elections as being numerous, difficult, and costly in the highest degree, and they require simplification. What has the Government done? They have introduced two franchises—one for Parliament and one for local government purposes. There appears to be some misapprehension. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong. Some people—in fact, I understand, some Liberal agents—are under the impression that the residential qualification will apply to local government as well as to Parliamentary elections. That is not so. We are to have a residential qualification for the Parliamentary list, but residence will not qualify for the local government list.
That is so.
That really amounts, in a sense, to lower franchise for the Parliamentary elector than for the local government elector. There can be no doubt about that. It is true, I take it, the property qualification is to some extent abolished for the local government election—in fact, I understand it is altogether abolished. As far as the Parliamentary elector is concerned, we have simply the two qualifications, residence and occupation; and for the local government elector we have the occupation qualification which applies to women as well as to men, and we have the ownership and lodger qualification which applies to men only. In all cases, both occupation, ownership, and lodger is without a property limit.
Without a limit of value.
5.0 P.M.
That is what I mean. That means, of course, the registration is simplified in a sense, but it also means you are imposing upon the registration officer the duty of preparing several different lists. It is extremely difficult to say how many. The right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill said there would be three lists. I think he will find that there will be a great many more. The burden thrown on the registration officer under this Bill is enormous. The whole responsibility is not only thrown upon him of preparing the lists, but there is an im- mense responsibility, hitherto unheard of, of adding to or removing names from that list. Another effect of this will be that in regard to the plural voter, the property plural voter will go, but great opportunities will be created for, I will not say wilfully manufacturing, although that may occur, but for the manufacture of another sort of plural vote. The man who has property is known to everybody, and everybody knows where his property is situated. The registration officer will invariably know when any of the voters in his district have property, if it is of any account, in some other part of the country, and they may, if they choose, in fact it is their duty, to send a notice to that voter asking if he has property in some other district, and if he does not reply they are to strike his name off the register. The same instruction applies to other districts, and, consequently, a considerable burden will thus be thrown upon anyone owning property in different districts to see that they get a vote in one place. But the casual labourer comes under an entirely different description. As to his private affairs, the registration officer will have no knowledge, and he can accidentally, or of set purpose, without the slightest difficulty, secure a vote in two constituencies at the same time. He will reside for six months in one constituency and get a vote there. He will then move into another constituency and nobody will know that he has moved. He will obtain a vote there and he will remain for a considerable time on the registers of both constituencies. He may keep his wife and family in one constituency and may live during the rest of the week in another, where he may be working, and, for that man, considerable opportunities will arise not only from plural voting, but also for the creation of faggot votes.
There is another important matter affecting registration, and that is the question of absentee voters. That is dealt with under this Bill only so far as soldiers are concerned. The case of the sailor is not touched. That seems to me a very important omission, and one which should certainly be remedied in Committee. Why should soldiers be given an opportunity of voting when seamen are deprived of it? The questions which arise on registration number four: Redistribution, registration anomalies, absentee voters, and plural voting. The Bill does not deal at all with redistribution, except in the case of University seats. It deals partly with registration anomalies—more, indeed, than with anything else; it deals partly with absentee voters, and also with plural voters. If we examine all these changes, it will be found that practically every change proposed is a purely party change. No change is suggested that has not a party object. The hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King), to my mind, raised his reputation as a humorist, because he asked the Government whether they would not be prepared, in order to secure the future changes being carried out, to insert them in the form of a Preamble to the Bill? I am bound to say he got no answer, but perhaps we shall get one from him at a later stage of the Debate.
I come next to the question of continuous registration and the six months qualification for voters. Continuous registration is something entirely new in this country, and it must create new difficulties. When a thing may be done any day it very often results in its not being done at all. What will almost inevitably happen is that the insertion of names at ordinary times will be considerably neglected, but, when an election is expected immediately, there will be a great rush—a pre-election rush—and I do not know what provision is made to enable registration officers to deal with such a state of affairs. An enormous burden will be thrown upon these officers. But what about their expenses? At present the cost of the Revising Barrister's Court is borne by the Treasury, and has to be recovered from the local authority. But under this proposal the registration officers are to be abolished, and that will be a distinct saving for the Treasury. The whole burden is to be thrown on the registration officers. I do not know whether the expenses of the County Courts will be increased or not; that is a doubtful point. But the whole expense will be thrown on the registration officer, a large clerical staff will no doubt be required, and one officer will be held responsible for a great county or a great borough—for one list, with all the machinery for the addition and removal of names, for the monthly preparation of the list, and for the annual preparation of a complete record. The area of working indicated is enormous. The right hon. Gentleman who moved the Second Reading dealt with it quite lightly; he said he thought it would not throw much extra labour on the clerks. Did he consult any of them about it before making that statement? Did he consult the clerks of any of our great municipalities as to whether their work will be increased? It is obvious that an immense amount of work must be involved. It will cost a great deal of money, as it will be necessary to keep a sufficient staff to deal with all these important matters. Who is to pay for it all? The proposal of the Bill is part and parcel of the old process, the vicious process, which we see in every Session of Parliament, particularly under this Government, not of enabling but of requiring expenditure for national purposes and leaving the money to be found by the ratepayer. This is another stage in the same direction, and, as far as I can see, there must be considerable extra expense thrown on the ratepayers in the administration of this Bill.
The Bill will also be another handicap to rural districts. There will be a much greater increase when we come to the Redistribution Bill, as, no doubt, that will involve a much larger voting increase in urban than in rural districts. There are a good many young men lodging and working in great industrial centres in the urban districts, more than those who live on the land, and that will put the rural districts at a discount. May I comment on one statement made by the right hon. Gentleman? He said that, so far as he could judge, there would be about three million more voters, and, as about half a million plural voters would be removed from the registry, the Bill only meant an addition of two and a half million new voters. I do not think that these two figures should be deducted from one another. It is more a question of adding. You have got three million new voters, and the removal of the plural voters from the list will not make that number any less.
It will reduce the number on the register.
That is not the point; I was referring to new voters.
I apologise to the House if I used a wrong word in dealing with the figures I gave on the introduction of the Bill. I gave the number on the register. I may have alluded to them as individual voters, but I was referring to the number of names on the register.
I do not want to make too much of the point. I did not raise it with the purpose of gratuitously finding fault, but my point is what proportion the new voters are to bear to the old. There is a new element which you are bringing in, and, as a matter of fact, that is the point which the House will desire to understand. You are depriving 500,000 old voters of their votes, and you are adding 3,000,000 new voters, and, therefore, as regards the new element, the new voters, it is a question not of two and a half million, but rather of three and a half million in proportion to the voting power that existed before. Although the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken may make little of that, although he may say, as he did, that they are not extending the franchise to any absolutely new class of the population, he knows perfectly well the effect on the present franchise and on the present plural voter. I really must say that I thought, in spite of the detail into which he went in order to prove that plural voting is not an advantage to property, that he could not have deceived even himself upon that point. Incidentally, although it may not act directly, the plural vote is indirectly proportionate to the property which an individual owns, and, as the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, it is to some extent a defence of vested interests. It may be right, or it may be wrong. I am not defending it; I am merely stating the fact that it is to some extent a defence of vested interests, and the qualifications which are now required for the franchise are also to some extent a defence of vested interests. That may be right or wrong, but it is a fact which, broadly speaking, is undeniable. What the right hon. Gentleman and the Government propose is to deprive property, if I may use that expression, of these incidental advantages. Let us admit them to be incidental. But you entirely remove the property qualification and you add 3,000,000 new voters without any property qualification at all. Nobody can deny that this is a very large step; that it means a very great lowering of the franchise in its essence. It is perfectly obvious that young men of twenty-one, all of whom will get the vote—and practically every man over the age of twenty-one will obtain it under this Bill if it passes, with the exception of a very few of the flotsam and jetsam—certainly we must recognise that young men of twenty-one, who possess no property of any sort or kind, cannot have attained on the average such a high sense of their responsibilities as citizens as they may secure later in life.
That is why they want it.
We are taking a very serious step in giving the vote to 3,000,000 new voters without any property qualification. It is a very grave new departure. The House must fully recognise that whether it be right or wrong, it is a large step to take to leave the age so low as twenty-one, and to remove the property qualification, and, at the same time, to deprive universities of their representation. I think the right hon. Gentleman himself rather felt the irony of the situation as Minister of Education when he got up to propose to deprive the universities, of their franchise.
There is no sort of educational test. Speaking wholly for myself, I am bound to say that if we are to have manhood suffrage we ought to have an educational test in some form or another. That is the only safe position for a country such as this. Considering the complexity of our interests, and considering—I say this without offence—the attitude of the present Government towards class divisions and property, the sudden addition of 2,000,000 voters, the bulk of them being young men just over twenty-one years of age, without any educational test or property test whatever, is a very dangerous step for the Government to take. We on this side of the House would look at it with a little less anxiety if the Government had shown more signs that they approached this great matter from a national point of view. But when we look at the situation, and when we cannot disguise from ourselves, apart altogether from the nature of the Bill and its effects, the fact that the Bill is not prepared from a national but from a party point of view, I think the danger is even greater. We have not too much security in this country now, and I most strongly deprecate any further action on the part of the Government in any Bill which will tend to depreciate security in this country or accentuate the feeling of anxiety amongst those who have anything to do with it. This Bill is another disturbing factor, and another disturbing factor at this moment is very much to be deprecated. It is another step in a fatal path. The effect of this measure, like many other measures brought forward by this Government, is to drive the classes into one camp and the masses into another. It was very acutely observed that where you get class cleavage and party cleavage to coincide it means a very-deep rift in the party politic, and dismemberment is not an unlikely consequence. I think this is a bad Bill; I think it is bad in the time of its introduction; I think it is bad on account of its omissions, and I think its sins of commission are dangerous. I therefore move the Amendment which stands in my name, and trust that this Bill, in its present form, will never receive the final sanction of this House.
This Bill is a tricky Bill—to use the phrase that Mr. Gladstone once applied to Home Rule. There is nothing so difficult to fight as clever trickery in legislation. When the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education asked leave to introduce the Bill he used a remarkable phrase. He said:— the guillotine the Schedules may never be discussed at all. It is a monstrous thing that in a Bill which is going to create a change greater than the Reform Bill of 1868, and almost as great as the Reform Bill of 1884–5, that such a course of legislation should have been adopted. I ask any of the oldest Members of the House—and I see several of them present—whether in the whole course of their experience they ever knew a Bill to be introduced in such a form, with Clauses cut down to a minimum in order that discussion may be avoided, and that under the operation of the Closure rules Schedules may be passed unchallenged. I draw the attention of the House to the form of the Bill On that we have only had some casual remarks from the President of the Board of Education.
I join with my hon. Friend (Mr. Prety-man) who has just moved the Amendment in condemning the studied and deliberate manner in which the Bill has been undervalued. You would imagine it did not make any great change in the Constitution of the country. The Colonial Secretary spoke of it as trivial, and as being a matter of mere simplification. He knows very well it is not. Nobody knows better than himself that it is an attempt to effect a revolution under cover; that in reality it is just as great a step as led to those exciting and historic Debates of 1866, 1868, and 1884–5. At that time there was no attempt to minimise the effect of the Bill; the whole of its bearings were discussed as they affected our political system; the character of our people and the destiny of the Empire. Prophecies were indulged in on one side and the other, but no one attempted to say that the Bill would be of no effect. It was admitted that it would effect a mighty change, whether for the better or for the worse, in the affairs not only of this country, but of the whole Commonwealth. Now we are told that this is merely a Bill for simplification, yet from 2,000,000 to 2,500,000 of the least settled part of the community is to be added to the register.
Three millions.
There is to be a net change of from 2,000,000 to 2,500,000, according to the estimate of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. You are going to put on, in vastly increased numbers, what the first Lord Selborne, when speaking for a Liberal Government, called, That is just the class you are going to tack on. I do not want to speak ill of it, but it is quite obvious that the political system of the country does suffer a very great change when you shift the balance of power to those who are constantly moving from place to place, and who are, as a rule, in the practice of casual labour. There is not the least doubt that the abolition of the plural vote is meant to affect the balance of parties to a vital extent. I wonder that the Colonial Secretary had the face to say to the House that he had no idea whether it would effect any political difference or not. We know he is a very astute electioneer, and that for a long time he was secretary of the Home Counties Federation of the Radical party. Yet he got up this afternoon and gravely assured the House that he did not know whether the abolition of the plural vote would effect any change in the prospects of the party to which he belongs. Everybody knows that the primary idea of this Bill is to abolish the plural vote, in order to secure a renewal of power to the right hon. Gentlemen opposite. That is the whole point of the Bill. I would point out to them, that in trying to take away, as they are so far as they can, all political influence from the land-owning and the employing classes, they are sinning against every canon of political science which has been laid down by the political philosophers of their own party. The Colonial Secretary said that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walton (Mr. F. E. Smith) had said that political science was on the side of the plural voter, but that he produced no example. The right hon. Gentleman might have gone to John Stuart Mill. In his work on "Ideal Representative Government," John Stuart Mill said:— him in a position of inferiority to his workmen. The whole of the political philosophers whom the right hon. Gentlemen opposite profess to follow have always said that you must find some way out of the difficulty of not giving to those who have large interests in the community a voice which may be heard, because at least that is the legitimate way in which they ought to express it. Now you propose to extinguish it by limiting the employer's vote to the particular district in which he may reside. There is a great deal more to be said in common justice to the plural voter than has been admitted, and the distinction which the Colonial Secretary drew will not bear examination for a moment. He said you give an employer a vote in local government because he is directly interested in the expenditure of the rates. Everybody knows that the taxes are now used just as much for local government purposes as the rates; therefore, if on the ground of local expenditure he is entitled in a particular locality to his vote because a part of the expenditure is out of the rates, he is equally entitled to a vote in respect of the taxes which are allocated to that particular area and for the same purpose. I do not believe that right hon. Gentlemen opposite have ever taken the trouble to study any of the scientific treatises which have been written by those who have tried to provide other means and other machinery for giving the men who direct the industry of the country the voice, which most people will admit they ought to have, in national affairs. This Bill is put on too low a plane. If carried, it will effect an enormous change in the country, and therefore it ought to be considered in that way and proper importance attached to its provisions. I hold that when you come to deal with its provisions it will be found to be hopelessly unworkable. No one here is against simplification of the registration system. Everyone admits its inequality. I sit for a borough three sides of which belong to the same Parliamentary division, and therefore within that area men may come and go and still preserve their vote, and on the fourth side they cross the road into an adjoining borough and lose it in so doing. But registration reform is the common stock of both parties. At every election the Unionist party has advocated reform in the registration system. Nor do I want to quarrel with the period of six months which is to be enacted as the qualifying time; but I do not believe for a moment that you will be able to work your continuous register.
It has been stated by the Colonial Secretary that the questions which will arise by way of objection to voters will be small and easily dealt with. I hardly think that was an honest statement to the House. If he goes to any of the divisions of the great towns he will find that under this Bill countless questions of infinite intricacy and difficulty will arise, and they cannot be dealt with from month to month, as he proposes, even by the County Court judge. If you take the registration campaign in London or Leeds you will find that the question raised in every street is whether a man is an alien or not. That sounds merely a simple question of fact, to be decided by reference to Somerset House. It is nothing of the sort. It involves intricate questions of law which have to be dealt with by experts on both sides. But that is not the only thing. A shifting electorate of this sort is very cunning at making contrivances so as to escape the operation of the electoral law, and these officers who are to be oppointed will have to be just as much experts as the revising barrister; and they cannot be expected from day to day, and from month to month, to settle these matters without advice and without evidence tendered before them. If that is so, it is going to be a very weighty matter that the registration officers will have thrown upon them. In practice we know what is going to happen. This Government is always in favour of the machine, and you are going to increase, by this Bill, enormously the power of and the necessity for the existence of the machine. In every constituency instead of registration agents being engaged for three months, they will be engaged for the whole year; the canvass will have to be taken from day to day in the different streets and they will have to collect evidence on both sides to support the County Court judge in order to enable him to form a decision—I suppose in the interstices of the time he gives to petty commercial cases. It is not likely in any constituency, rural or urban, that the chief agent will allow, unchallenged, to be put upon the register men who, on the ground of character, on the ground of their past experience under the Poor Law, may be struck off.
This Bill will immensely increase for every candidate, to whatever party he belongs, the expense of political life, and that is a very serious thing. It is a fraud in that regard. It is stated that this is to introduce a perfect and cheap system of citizenship. It is nothing of the sort. Every party will be competing day by day, and not only for three months, in order to reduce the political strength of their opponents and to increase their own. Under these circumstances, is it really a Bill for registration reform? If I am right—and I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to prove from any example in the course of his extensive electioneering experience that I am wrong—this will not be in any way a help to an easy process of registration. I do not know whether he proposes that the registration officers are to have a whole army of servants. If so, that will vastly increase the cost to the locality, and the rates will have to suffer for it. There is no provision in the Bill to decrease the expense imposed on the party agents. If it had been a real Registration Reform Bill, some attempt ought to have been made to decrease the legitimate expenses which fall upon candidates for Parliament. If we are to have six months I make this suggestion, that instead of a continuous register it will be far better to have a register made up by three months at a time. That will be ample for the purpose, and it will do something, if this Bill is to be carried, to lessen this extra cost which is going to be thrown on those who seek political honours, because everywhere it is the same. It is the candidate who is taxed for these things, and I cannot understand the right hon. Gentleman wishing to penalise men without means, so that they will find it harder than ever to enter the doors of this House. My whole point is that although this Bill masquerades under the title of Registration Reform, it is a. backward step. Save—I admit—in shortening the term of residence. It does not simplify, but it increases cost.
The right hon. Gentleman knows that it is the custom everywhere for the Parliamentary and the local government register to be made up together. He is going to have the dual franchise for Parliamentary purposes. He is going to keep a very large number for the purpose of local government, but the political agent will have to consider both at the same time. It will be more difficult than it was to adjust the claims of local government against Parliamentary candidature. I take London for an example. I think, on the whole, very much for the worse, all our county council elections are fought by the cleavage of political parties. Therefore, political agents from year to year think almost as much of the local government register as of the Parliamentary register. Nothing whatever is done to do away with the anomalies or to increase the simplicity of the local government register. It is left with all its endless complexities, just as it is, open to every abuse, and still the claim is made for this Bill that it simplifies registration. It is, of course, brought forward in a hurry only to effect the abolition of the plural vote; but it ought to be unmasked, and we ought to make it impossible for its advocates to tell the people it will do anything to make the registration system any better than it is now. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Harcourt) travelled over a good deal of ground, but he knew very well what it was to confuse the two issues; to leave the local government electorate as it is, and to try to create a new Parliamentary electorate. He talked about easily ascertaining the will of the people. The Bill will not make it any easier, and it will make it much more costly. It will create a confused scuffle among local agencies all over the country, and it will make the last state much worse than the first. But I prefer to put my opposition on higher grounds. I think it a sin against political morality to try to make out that there is nothing intended by this Bill save to help the people easily to obtain their political rights. It is contrary to all the best precedents on the other side. In every other Reform Bill those who have advocated such a change as this have had the courage of their opinions. They have advocated it because they thought it "was a good thing to broaden the basis of government, and because they thought it would allow classes to be heard to whom this House is perhaps too deaf to listen. On the contrary, now we are told that nothing is meant but a small and simple measure of rectification. I will conclude with a quotation from John Bright, who, speaking on another Bill which he said was tricky and which dealt with the same question, said:—
I think the hon. Gentleman once sat as a Liberal Member of this House, and I believe he also must have subscribed to a Liberal programme. I shall be much surprised if in that programme there was not the item of One Man One Vote.
And one value.
What one value means I have yet to understand, but I think the hon. Gentleman will admit that the Liberal Government is committed to deal with plural voting, and I say candidly that I would have been quite satisfied if the Bill that is introduced had dealt with plural voting, and plural voting alone; although I hail with additional satisfaction the fact that it is also dealing with our registration system. Neither to Home Rule nor to Welsh Disestablishment was the Government more deeply committed than to doing away with plural voting. One of the first measures the Liberal Government introduced in 1906 was one to deal with the abolition of plural voting, and it was a great source of disappointment to the Liberal party when it was summarily rejected by the House of Lords. I am certain hon. Members opposite cannot be surprised if, when the power of that House has been curtailed, the Government should undertake a measure which was long overdue. I hold that this measure is framed in a spirit of tolerance and equity. I quite recognise that hon. Gentlemen opposite think it will act prejudicially to their party. I am not certain about that. I recognise that the abolition of plural voting will be detrimental to their interests, but I am not so certain that, with an extended registration, they will not receive equal benefit from it with this party. But be that as it may, if they do admit—as they do, I believe—that plural voting is to their advantage, and if plural voting cannot be justified, in all candour they should say it is a matter which requires to be dealt with. I hail with satisfaction that the Government has included registration reform in their proposal, because I am well aware of the cumbersome method that has existed in connection with our registration. Personally, I should have been more satisfied if the Government had based their reform on the residential qualification and left the occupiers' qualification entirely out of the question. I recognise that even now, under the occupiers' qualification, combined with the residential qualification, difficulties may arise. The hon. Member (Mr. Pretyman) dealt with the fact that under this new registration system an agricultural labourer might be difficult to trace, and therefore might become a plural voter.
I most particularly did not refer to the agricultural labourer. I said the casual labourer.
I think that difficulty can be obviated, and I will tell the hon. Gentleman how I think it can be dealt with. In this measure the Government have not dealt with some of the anomalies in our electoral system. I think if all elections were held on one day, and that a statutory holiday, many of the present difficulties might be obviated, and elections might be placed on a better and more solid basis. I admit that the abolition of plural voting will do away with one of the greatest anomalies. I consider that under this Bill the basis of a man's qualification for a vote will be one based upon his own person and not upon property. Under present conditions a man dies, and naturally he is unable any longer to record his vote, but his successor is able to record a vote in respect of the property. Therefore, although the man who dies is no longer able to record a vote for himself, the person who inherits his property is able to vote. There is another anomaly in connection with the electoral system, and that is the use of motor cars at elections. I believe that has also a great deal to do with the unsatisfactory conditions under which elections are carried on. I do hope that during the passage of this Bill, both as regards having elections on one day and the intervention of motor cars at elections, which is a new feature, not contemplated when the Corrupt Practices Act was passed, Amendments will be introduced.
The hon. Member for Chelmsford dealt with the responsibility of the voters placed on the register at the age of twenty-one. I consider that with an extended franchise a man of twenty-one is too young to be put on the register. I notice that some people advocate twenty-five. I would suggest that the age should be twenty-three. I would also make a provision that a man who has served in the Territorial Force for two years should be able to be put on the register at the age of twenty-one. His service in that force would show that he recognises his responsibility and that he is qualified to exercise the vote. Another matter of great importance in connection with this Bill is the question of the admission of women to the Parliamentary franchise. I consider that under this Bill, whether you take the larger franchise, which would admit 10,500,000, or the reduced number of women who hold property, it would be equally objectionable to give the franchise. This is a Bill to do away with existing anomalies. [An HON. MEMBER: "It will increase them."] I consider that by bringing women on the register you would be creating a far greater anomaly, and doing far greater mischief than can be found in the anomalies you propose to remove by this Bill. Therefore, much as I advocate what is in the measure, and much as I desire to support it, I state that, if women are brought into the Parliamentary franchise through Amendments in this measure, I will not be able to give it my support when it comes to the Third Reading.
May I offer my very sincere congratulations to the hon. Baronet, first of all, for his extreme candour. I think he has said what many of us on this side of the House have been saying for a very long time as to the reason for bringing forward this Bill. He says he would have been perfectly content if plural voting alone had been dealt with in this Bill. I am perfectly certain that the whole of his party would have been equally content. I cannot congratulate him on his definition of toleration and equity. I only wish that toleration and equity would form some infinitesimal portion of the legislation brought forward by the Government at the present time. We are all anxious and willing to lend our voices and to aid in the work of passing legislation which might prove of benefit to the people of this country, but I regret to say that under the present rÉgime we have no chance whatever of doing so, for every single measure brought into this House is conceived and carried out from the party point of view, and never for a single moment designed or intended to be of any benefit whatever to the people of the country. [HON. MEMBERS indicated dissent.] You have candour on the other side on the part of the hon. Baronet (Sir C. Henry), I think you might admit a little candour from this side of the House. I say at once that I agree with every word of the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend. This is a Bill which adds enormously to the burdens of persons engaged either in registration or in contesting elections. I always thought it was the proud boast of our Radical friends that every- thing they did with regard to registration or elections was with the one idea of making things easy for people of all classes if they wish to enter this House. I say this Bill must impose financial burdens so heavy on all candidates and Members that it will render it a most difficult task for any man to enter the House unless he is richly endowed with the good things of this world. It seems to be an undoubted fact that we can always estimate pretty accurately the relationship between the present Government and the electors by the sort of legislation they propose. In looking back and reading speeches of men who were formerly Members of this House I was immensely struck by a speech delivered by Lord Beaconsfield, then Mr. Disraeli, in 1863, in referring to the attitude of the Radical. He said:— Supply. It is at a time when the Government programme is already so full that a Minister of the Crown moves the Second Reading of this Bill, which I call a Bill of the first importance. I might say that it is of more than first importance, because it will undoubtedly create a fresh franchise over the length and breadth of the country.
6.0 P.M.
We have had for years anomalies in the registration of electors. How easy it would have been to bring in a Bill of an absolutely non-contentious nature. I do not think there is a Member on this side of the House who would not willingly say that it should not be necessary for a man to wait such an enormous length of time as he has to wait under present conditions in order to qualify for the vote. There are cases where the boundaries are such that it is difficult for a man to know whether he is in one constituency or another. When a man moves across the road he should not be penalised by losing his vote. These are things which, I am sure, could have been remedied by a non-contentious Bill. If it is true that the sole desire of hon. Members opposite is to remove these anomalies, I am certain hon. Members on this side would have been most willing and anxious to co-operate with them in that good work. In that way grievances affecting all classes of the public, and all shades of political opinion, would have been removed. But that is not the idea which has dominated hon. Members on the other side of the House. Let us consider how the vote has been vested in days gone by. There is not a shadow of a doubt that property has been the qualification for the vote. Let us examine a very curious phase existing at the present moment. We have heard at by-elections lately, and still more at the present moment, when two vacancies have been created, of some tax to be placed upon land called "the Single Tax." Elysium is being held out to the ratepayers, and they are encouraged to think that they will have no rates of any kind, sort, or description to pay, because the whole is to be extracted from land in someway, quite unknown to anybody, and I think quite unknown to those who are pushing this election policy. It is to be of great advantage to those who are now paying local rates. It seems to me a curious thing that at the moment when the Government are going to put this extra tax on land, and acknowledging the enormous importance of land, and what it expects to get out of it, it should take this opportunity of disfranchising those who happen to hold it. That is the most remarkable procedure that one has seen for a great length of time. I am very anxious, when the right hon. Gentleman comes to reply to what we have said, to hear some explanation from him as to whether this new programme is authorised, because if it is not authorised, and he is going to say so, then I would be very glad to withdraw my remarks.
I think the Prime Minister said this afternoon that it was not.
I should very much like to know from some other hon. Member if that is the case. It is possible to misunderstand these things, and I hope that the hon. Baronet will excuse me.
I think that the hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes) put the question pointedly to the Prime Minister.
If it is unauthorized, I trust that it will not be pressed at the by-elections which are going on at the present time.
The hon. Member is going outside the scope of the Motion under discussion.
When it was deliberately stated, as it seemed to me on good authority, I thought I was justified in referring to it; but in deference to your ruling I do not pursue that argument. I would draw attention to one or two of the Clauses, because I think they will prove before very long to be perfectly unworkable. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman is there any date at all on which the Parliamentary register is to come into existence, because it seems to me that there must be some day on which the register begins, and also some day on which one can take objection to those who are not duly qualified. There is nothing in the Act which says anything about that. There are many points in the Schedule which require very much greater explanation than has been given. A very heavy additional expense must be borne in preparing and maintaining the register. For the first time the onus is thrown on the registration officer of putting the names on the register, and also taking them off. I may draw attention to the fact that up to the present I do not think it has ever been possible for a voter to withdraw his own name from the register. The extra permanent staff must add considerably to the rates, and London no doubt is placed in a very hard position under this Bill. The administrative burdens of London have in recent years been steadily increased. In addition to the heavy burden of duties thrown upon the registration officer by this Bill there will require to be a very large additional staff, which will place extra heavy burdens upon the municipal authorities throughout London. Just consider the changing register. You must have an enormously watchful eye kept upon it by the registration officer; and what about candidates and Members of Parliament in constituencies, say, like my own, extending over six miles in length, with one portion of the constituency living a separate life from the other and each portion having very diverse interests? It would become necessary for any man desiring to win or keep that seat to employ his own registration officer and have a large staff, who should constantly be watching to see that no names were placed upon the constantly varying register which have no right to be there. It is impossible to carry that on without a very large staff. It is a very difficult thing to obtain. No registration agent will undertake the work then at the salary which was previously paid.
I feel some amazement at the complacency which hon. Members opposite seem to take such extraordinary provisions. Either they do not believe that it is intended to pass this Bill in its entirety, but that it is merely intended to pass the portion which refers to plural voters, which they most desire, or they expect from some source to be supplied with an enormous amount of this world's goods. They have always complained that we have tried to do everything to make it difficult for poor men to get into Parliament. I deny that, but I do say that if this Bill becomes law, then our opponents will have indeed done that which they now say we are endeavouring to do, and endeavoured by every single thing in their power to prevent any poor man obtaining a seat in this House. I now come to the question of objections. Objections can be raised at any time. When an objection is taken to a voter it is held over for a period of one month. At the end of that month, if he desires, it is taken to the County Court. In passing I may say that it seems to me very hard to cast on an already greatly overburdened authority any such grave duty as this. At the end of the month the case is dealt with, and if the vote is given then it becomes possible to carry the matter to the Court of Appeal. Hon. Members will notice what might happen. Six months is the time necessary to get on the register. Suppose it be contemplated by either party that an election is possible in the near future, would it not be possible, if one were clever enough, to hang out a very large number of voters and disqualify them from taking part in the election? First of all, there is the objection of putting a man off and then there is an interval of a month before the case is heard in the County Court, and finally the hearing of the appeal. I think that those stages could not be completed before three months. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to say what would be the position of those voters suppose an election took place? They are on the list of objections and the result of the County Court or a Court of Appeal hearing, or both, would have to be decided.
What is the position of these voters who are in a state of suspended animation on the list in case of a General Election? I am perfectly certain that under this Bill constituencies can be won by the man with the longest purse. I have spoken to a great many men who have passed their lives at registration and political work, and I am perfectly certain that given a man with a long enough purse with only six months to get the voter on there is much greater certainty that when an election takes place things can be done by which that man could undoubtedly make certain of securing a victory. I am very strongly of opinion that no hon. Member on the other side of the House desires for one moment to lend himself to anything of the kind. If that be so the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for Education should impress that fact upon his colleagues of the Government, so that we might have some alteration which might lessen the degradation of this country to the very great detriment of honest public that otherwise would ensue. Then I would like to ask how it would be possible for a registration officer to obtain the information which is supposed to be got? Take the question of blocks of flats. I have a case in my eye at the present moment in a constituency close to my own where there are blocks of flats occupied by poor tenants. In order to enable them to eke out their existence and pay a little more rent, in nearly every single case portions of these flats and, in many cases, rooms are let to others. How can a registration agent possibly obtain the information in the way in which it ought to be obtained from these flats? Again, the registration authority is to put upon the register anyone who appears to be of the age of twenty-one. I know a good many people who appear to be twenty-one and are only sixteen or seventeen. It is throwing an enormous work upon the registration agent to ask him to put forward the names of those who appear to be twenty-one, and when he comes to these blocks of flats I really think that the task imposed becomes impossible. The whole scheme of the Bill is cumbersome and ill-digested, and the introduction of the measure is an instructive commentary upon the position in this House, which is absolutely congested at the present time. I do not believe that the Members of the Cabinet have time, even if they have the desire, to think out all these measures as they should be thought out. For these reasons I shall oppose the Bill as far as possible, and I shall support the Amendment so ably moved by my hon. Friend.
As far as I am able to appreciate them, the real objections raised to this Bill come to three. First of all, that this Bill is not accompanied by a scheme of redistribution; secondly, because of some complaint that the Government have not introduced the scheme for the enfranchisement of women; and thirdly, because the Bill undoubtedly does away with the property voter. The first complaint has been entirely met by the undertaking given by the Government that they propose to introduce and carry through, as far as they can, a scheme of redistribution next year. The right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment asked, "Why then do you not put a Clause in this Bill undertaking that that should be done?" The answer is evident. If we pass this Bill through in this year's Session, we can insist upon it passing under the Parliament Act; but if we do not carry the Redistribution Bill until next year, and there is a Clause in this Bill that it is not coming into operation unless there is redistribution, then it would be perfectly possible for the House of Lords to hang up redistribution and this Bill then will have no effect. The Government have taken the right course in introducing this Bill, and are now in a position under the Parliament Act to enable it to become law and to postpone in all detail the most difficult question of redistribution until next year. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen complain that the Government do not appear to have made up their mind with regard to the Amendment for the enfranchisement of women. Many other people have not made up their minds, and if the Government are divided so are the Conservative party. We know that no small number of Members of the other side will vote for the insertion of an Amendment for woman suffrage provided the question is left open to the House. It is going to be left open to the House. I think the Government have treated both the question and the House very fairly. If the Government had included the enfranchisement of women in the Bill, Members of the other side of the House would have voted against it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because, unfor-fortunately, under the present system which obtains in this House, parties on Government measures are more or less absolutely solid; it is almost the essential result of our party system. The Government have fairly said that on this question, in regard to which parties are divided, they will leave it to the House, and I myself, as an advocate of woman suffrage, thank the Government for what they have done, and I sincerely hope that all those who are anxious to carry through woman suffrage this Session will avail themselves of this opportunity, than which they will really never have a better one, and that there will be no dissensions among them.
The other point is that this Bill does away with the property vote. I do not think anybody could support the continued existence of the property vote nowadays. Under the original system the franchise depended entirely on property. Freeholders were the only persons in towns who had votes. Then the franchise was extended to householders, although it was theoretically based on property, and the vote is now becoming more and more the right of the citizen and not merely the right of the landowner. Unfortunately we have a great number of conditions which are, to say the least of it, absolutely absurd. The ownership vote is absurd in itself. Take my own instance. I have the privilege of possessing an ownership vote in respect of a small property which is situated in London, yet I cannot exercise that vote where I would like to exercise it, but I am bound to exercise it in a place where I have no interest at all. This property vote is shunted about by Parliament in the most extraordinary way. In 1884 various new boroughs were established in London, and there was a large number of persons who had freehold votes in the Hackney Division of Middlesex. When Hackney was constituted a borough, something had to be done in regard to these ownership voters, of whom there were several thousands. They were all handed over to Tottenham, though they have no interest whatever in that place. Take again the question of the occupier. The occupier's vote also depends on the theory that he has a certain right over land. Over what land? The land may be a square yard with a square yard of flooring on the fourth storey of a tenement house, but as long as that particular bit of flooring is over that particular bit of land the occupier can get the vote. The result is that we have arising the ludicrous position in which the latchkey voter exists.
The latchkey voter is a man who occupies a workman's flat in the dwelling in which, unfortunately, his landlord resides. There are many cases in London where the landlord has four or five houses, and he lets them all out, under precisely the same conditions, to individual tenants. He lets unfurnished rooms which the tenants themselves furnish, and they have the right of egress and ingress to and from those rooms. In four of the houses where the landlord does not reside the occupiers have the vote, but in the house where the landlord does reside the occupiers cannot get votes unless they claim as lodgers, and, of course, if they do that, they have to pay a certain rental for rooms before they can qualify.
Take the cases of succession votes—they also depend on the idea that there must be a certain right in land. I know of a case which occurred not long ago, where a man and his son occupied a house, and the father had the vote as occupier and the son the vote as lodger. The father died, and the son became occupier. He lost his vote as lodger, and it took a year and a half before he could qualify to vote as an occupier. What reason can there be why the State should have a system of registration, which allows a man continuing in the same house to lose his vote for eighteen months or two years because he does not possess the absolutely true legal tenure of the piece of land or house which he occupied. The system by which our electoral law is based upon property has become absolutely absurd. Take again the absurdity in the law as it stands in regard to successive occupation. It is held that a man may move from one place to another in the same borough and can continue to keep his right to vote; but boroughs vary, and the consequence is that in London a man may keep his vote, as in the Tower Hamlets, if he moves from one constituency to another within the borough, and he may move as late as the 14th July, I believe, and keep his vote; but if he went a little westward to Bethnal Green he would lose his vote, and would have to qualify again. These are not exceptional cases; they are merely examples of thousands of cases that exist all over the country, and more especially in London, and they all show that a radical reform must be brought about, and one which, once for all, will do away with this property vote. It is not only the poorer classes that are kept off the register by reason of those conditions which I have mentioned. There are many persons in the upper classes who practically are unable to vote because of the difficulty of obtaining registration. There are Wesleyan ministers who have never been able to get the vote, and very few Wesleyan ministers are able to obtain it because under their system of removing once in every three years they become disqualified. If they do succeed in getting on to the register, before the end of the three years they are again disqualified for the next two years, and the result is that a very respectable and worthy class of citizens are constantly unable to obtain the vote.
That applies to a very large number of people. The number of persons who lose their vote because of changing their residence is a very serious matter in our great towns. In London, I estimate that there are between 200,000 and 300,000 electors who move their residence every year. Of course, a great many of these removals are within the same borough, and therefore they are hunted up and enabled to continue their rights as voters. But a great many of them lose their votes altogether for a year or eighteen months, or more. This is the reason why the proportion of electors in this country to the adult population is smaller I believe than in other civilised countries—very much smaller than in America, France, or Germany. The reason is not that we have not enfran- chised our people, but that we have established a system which, while professing to enfranchise the great mass of adult males, does not do so by reason of these drawbacks and obstacles put in the way of their obtaining and retaining their votes. The only possible method of reform is to allow such proposals as those in the Bill, namely, to sweep away altogether the idea that you must have your vote based on some relation with the land, and to give the man a vote because he is a citizen. In doing that, we could see that there were sufficient safeguards in respect of his continued residence to prevent any abuses arising in connection with the electoral law. The question, therefore, is what is the best way of getting a system by which you can make it as easy and as cheap as possible for a man to get on the register and as easy as possible for him to remain on that register. I welcome this Bill because it proposes a very important alteration in the right direction; but I may be allowed, with great deference, to criticise some proposals which are included in it. One of the difficulties I have in accepting the Bill as it stands relates to the proposal that there should be a continuous register made every month and running continuously. We want a system whereby a man can get on to the register very easily and without invoking the aid of the party organisation. We know that at the present moment overseers have a statutory duty placed upon them of seeing that every qualified voter is on the register, but, as a matter of fact, the overseers do not all carry out that duty. In many places they do. I know town clerks who take great pride in making their register as perfect as possible; but in other places they do not, and the consequence in those places is that great expense and trouble falls upon the party organisation to do what it is the duty of town clerks to do, namely, to see that every qualified person gets on the register.
It is perfectly clear that under the system of continuous registration there will have to be an organisation either under the town clerk or under the party organisation to hunt up the voters who have removed. It is a task which has not been very easy hitherto, although we have been dealing with a class of men who are naturally coming constantly under the cognisance of town clerks and overseers, namely, the occupiers. We are now going to deal with men who are not occupiers and not ratepayers, but mere residents, and it will be a still more difficult task to find them, and it will be a very expensive matter. The most expensive portion of the existing system arises from the necessity of making claims for lodgers. If we had not to make claims for lodgers a great portion of the expenses would be saved. Unfortunately, as far as I can see from what the operation of this Bill will be it will magnify very largely the number of claims put in, because the proposal is that the overseer should make an inspection once per year, and issue the list once per year, and that then for every month after that time the registers will be filled up by persons claiming to be put on. If that is so, that means that a very large number of votes will depend on how this system of claiming will be carried out. The matter is an important one. In our constituencies in London, for example, it is reckoned that in many of them, although of course they vary very much, we should have from two to three thousand removals in the course of a year. That means to say that you will require a system of organisation which will have to deal with fifty or sixty removals per week. There can be no doubt that if this system of claims holds good, that it is only the party organisation that can carry them out, and therefore the party organisation of both sides will be put to very heavy expenses. I do not think that that is an objection which cannot be remedied, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will give consideration to it as it is very serious. I think it might be remedied, but I will not trouble now about the methods I would venture to suggest. I feel certain that on both sides we should agree if this continuous register is to take place, that it ought to be carried out by the local authority, and that the party organisation ought to have nothing whatever to do with it. If we could get that carried out, then I believe this six months arrangement would be very good.
There is the other objection which has been largely met by the speech made by the Colonial Secretary this afternoon, and that is with regard to occupation. I quite understand that the proposals which are included in the Bill were inserted with the view to meeting special cases. That being so, I have no doubt the wording will be so altered so as to make it perfectly clear so that we shall arrive at residence alone qualifying for a vote, which is the only satisfactory condition of affairs. There are one or two other objections of a special kind to which I desire to refer. One is in connection with the local govern- ment franchise. I do not think this Bill has properly treated that particular question. The local government electorate or the electors are going to be altered to a certain extent. Instead of being put on as an occupier, where the person is in occupation for twelve months to the 15th of July, any occupier who has occupied his dwelling for six months will now be placed on the register of local government electors. I suggest that we might consider whether the local government register should not be put on a proper basis. There are some very curious discrepancies in the United Kingdom with regard to local government registers. For example, in Scotland and in Ireland, and in London, a lodger has a municipal vote, while in the English counties and English boroughs the lodger has no local government vote. That has come about by reason of the fact that in 1888, when the Local Government Act was being carried, there was some ruling of the Chair, I believe, which made it impossible to get in a certain Amendment which was then proposed. At any rate, since 1888, whenever Scotland or Ireland or London has been able to bring its case before Parliament, it has succeeded in obtaining the admission of lodgers and the service franchise on the lists of local government electors. It is high time that we gave the same franchise to the lodgers in the counties and boroughs of England. That affects in a very particular manner the question of women's votes for the Local Government Bodies. The women lodgers in Scotland and the women lodgers in Ireland are entitled to the local government vote; but the women lodgers in England, including London, are not entitled to the local government vote. It is high time Parliament removed these anomalies. What is right for Ireland and Scotland in respect to the women's vote for municipal purposes is also right for England. I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that in the course of the Committee stage of this Bill he might remedy that anomaly. With regard to the position of women generally, as I have said, I think the position taken up by the Government in regard to their admission to the franchise is one which is perfectly satisfactory, and ought, I believe, in their interests to succeed, if only those who are interested in the subject will hold together and work together with that one object.
I listened to the hon. Gentleman's speech with the greatest possible interest. There was one observa- tion in it which I think really deserves to be emphasised from this side of the House. The hon. Gentleman laid it down as a canon about which there was no doubt now at all, that when a Government Bill was introduced hon. Members opposite were bound to support it, and hon. Members on this side were bound to oppose it. I do not very much disagree with the hon. Gentleman as to the substance or substantial truth of that observation. I do think that it is valuable to have it recognised and publicly recognised by a thorough going supporter of the present Government that that is the condition to which the present House of Commons is now reduced. I often wish it were possible to have a cinematograph representation of the House of Commons when we are discussing great constitutional questions. I should like to have it displayed in every constituency in the country, and I should like everybody to know what the House of Commons—which they read about—and the Imperial Parliament really means when it is discussing a great question of this kind. It means that we have, so far as I am able to judge, the presence of thirty or forty hon. Members during the whole of this Debate, so far as it has gone. There may have been twice that number to listen to the Colonial Secretary, but since that there have only been thirty or forty. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about your side?"] I am making no distinction between the two sides of the House, and I am going to say a word about the reason for it in a moment. That is what it means, that thirty or forty members, listen to the Debate and three or four hundred vote in the Division. The reason, of course, is quite simple. If the hon. Member is right, and if the vote is absolutely a foregone conclusion in every case, then hon. Members are perfectly right not to waste their time by coming in and listening to the Debate, and the condition of the House is explained by that statement. Yet, I think, this Bill might really have excited some little interest among the Members of the House.
I think the real nature of the Bill is very remarkable. I do not think that anyone can really understand it without just going back to the last two years of our history. What has the Government done? Two years ago, as we know from a momentary access of candour on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, they decided that it would be desirable for political reasons to pick a quarrel with the House of Lords. They laid a trap for the House of Lords, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained. They thereupon had a quarrel, and I quite agree a very astutely chosen ground of quarrel, and one which was capable of a great deal of misrepresentation in the country. They then proceeded to the country, and they obtained a majority to carry out a reform of our Parliamentary system by promising to the country that they were going to set up an improved Second Chamber. Having obtained their power in that way, they then proposed to utilise it in order to pass a Bill that they think will give them great electoral advantage at the next General Election. I do not believe there is a single hon. Member in this House who does not agree that that is literally exactly what has happened. I venture to say that if the electorate could really be brought to understand that manœuvre that they would be profoundly disgusted with the Government and its supporters. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the non-electors?"] I dare say the non-electors would be even more disgusted. I do not understand the meaning of the hon. Gentleman's interruption. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the women?"] The women will not be particularly pleased, as I will venture to show in a moment. Of course, hon. Members opposite do not put this forward as a Bill to obtain for themselves or their party special advantages, though we all know that that is the main purpose of the Bill. They put it forward on the ground that it is a Reform Bill. What does a Reform Bill mean? I apprehend it means this: It is a Bill to improve the machinery by which the electorate or people of this country shall have their will reflected in the House of Commons. The object of it is to bring closer together the relation between electors and Members of this House, so that the House shall be the true reflection of the political opinion of this country. I believe that is the object which has always been put forward for Reform Bills, and I believe that is the real object which should be put forward. Judged by that test, can anyone say that this Bill in that sense is a Reform Bill?
Is it really likely, when this Bill is passed into law, if it is passed, that this House will more closely represent the opinions of the people of this country than it does now? That is the question I wish to put to the House. Just notice what the Bill does not do. It does not make any provision for redistribution. I quite agree we are told by the Colonial Secretary that redistribution is to follow within the present Parliament. He will forgive me if I say that we on this side accept that kind of assurance with more suspicion perhaps than we would have had a year or two ago. That suspicion is not much decreased by his immediate rejection of a proposal that he should put into the Bill a Clause postponing its operation until redistribution is passed. The hon. Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) says that is perfectly right, as in that way it would be possible to delay the operation of this Bill altogether. What does that mean? The hon. Member wishes to have the control, as he thinks, over the Unionist Opposition so that they will be compelled to pass practically whatever Redistribution Bill is put before them, lest they should have to face the country on the manifestly unfair system set up by the present Bill. That is the calculation which the hon. Member apparently put before the House. At any rate, the Bill does not deal with redistribution, which, on the admission even of the Colonial Secretary, urgently wants dealing with. It does not deal with the absentee voter, who, I think myself, is one of the greatest anomalies. I am not going to refer to the matter at any length, but I think it is a great scandal that a man who happens by his trade to be called away should not be allowed to record his vote. That does seem to me to be an absolutely indefensible state of things, and yet nothing is done to remedy that. These two matters are not carried through Why? Because, as everybody knows, redistribution if carried out even by Liberal hands would tell in favour of the Unionists.
dissented.
The hon. Member for Lincoln does not agree with me. I thought it was common ground with everybody.
No.
Then no doubt the hon. Member will be thoroughly in favour of redistribution. I think, however, that that is not the view held on the Treasury Bench, otherwise we should have had redistribution proposed in this Bill. As to the absentee voters, I believe that as a matter of party calculation the people who are absentees would, generally speaking, be likely to vote on the Unionist side. As to the omission of women, I shall have a word or two to say later on. What does, the Bill? It does three things mainly. It abolishes plural voting; it abolishes university seats; and it makes a change in the registration laws. Take, first, plural voting. I am not going to make at any length any defence of plural voting. I am pledged to my Constituents—indeed, I have frequently pledged myself to support a Bill for one man one vote, provided it is accompanied by provisions giving one vote one value. But, honestly, I do not think the matter is quite fairly dealt with on its merits by the Colonial Secretary. There is a great deal more to be said in favour of giving some additional voting strength to those who pay a greater part of the taxes. That seems to me, on the face of it, a reasonable proposition. I do not say that the present plural vote is good. I do not think it is. It is full of anomalies, exceptions, and all sorts of inconsistencies. Therefore I quite agree that, in its present form at any rate, it cannot be defended. But apart from its merits, by the confession and assertion of everybody on the other side of the House, it undoubtedly operates in favour of the Unionist party. If you have, as I think you have at the present moment, a system which has in it defects which operate, some in favour of the Unionist party and others in favour of the Radical party, if you remove one set of defects you do not improve matters at all: you make them worse than they were before. It is the same as if you have a set of accounts, and there has been a mistake made on the credit side and another on the debit side. The best thing to do, I admit, is to correct both. But if they more or less cancel one another, and you correct the mistake on the credit side, you make the result, so far as representing the true state of the account is concerned, even worse than it was before. Therefore to correct one anomaly which operates in favour of one party, and to leave other anomalies which operate in favour of the other party, is not a Reform Bill in the sense of making a nearer approach to reflecting in this House the opinions of the country; it is merely a piece of political gerrymandering.
It is the same in regard to university seats. It has been pointed out that that is thrust into this Bill with no kind of logic or reason. There is no reason why you should have dealt with university representation in this Bill at all; it obviously belongs to the category of redistribution. Yet it is being dealt with. If you are to argue about university representation, it is quite obvious that in any true representative system university Members in some form are not only desirable, but almost necessary. It is a great mistake to suppose that you can get a really representative system by simply taking the whole mass of voters, putting -them into the common pot, as it were, and allowing them to elect one against another. You will never get a real representation of the mind of the country in that way. You ought to have, and you must have, if you are going to have any real representation, in addition to that, some representation of different points of view, of different classes, of different degrees of education, and so on. I "believe that representation of the educated class, such as you have in the University seats, is just as important to true representation as a thoroughly good system of registration for the general mass of voters. I would like to see the matter carried further. Personally, I would like to see in this House, for instance, a representative of the Civil Service.
I think it would be an immense advantage both to the Civil Service and to the general electoral system of the country if you could take the Civil Service out of the general body of electors, and give them one or more separate representatives according to their numbers. This kind of sectional representation is quite as important to a truly representative system as any other part of our electoral machinery. Why are the university seats to be abolished? There is no doubt that if they were represented part by Liberals and part by Conservatives no one would have proposed to abolish them. I do not believe a single Member listening to me would venture to assert that if it was not for the fact that the whole eleven seats happen to be filled by Unionists there would be any proposal whatever to abolish university representation. Is that really a right way to use the power which you have obtained under the Parliament Act? Is it right to take these particular changes which will operate entirely in favour of one party and use the power of the Parliament Act to force them through, without any appeal to the country, without any opportunity of seeing even whether the electors are of the same opinion as they were when this House was elected?
Take the third point—registration. I quite admit that that is, in my judgment, much the best part of the Bill. The hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) enlarged—and I agree with much that he said—on the great anomalies and absurdities of our present registration system. I quite agree that some change is necessary. I, personally, am quite content to say that some change in the direction indicated in this Bill is the right way of dealing with these anomalies. But I do not feel at all sure that the machinery proposed by the Bill is likely to be the best or most effective for the purpose. To begin with, we hear a great deal about simplification. Apart from everything else, I understand that the local government franchise is to be left practically as it is. I do not see how you are to have any simplified form of registration if all the difficult questions remain to be settled before you can make up your register. You will, I think, have just as many difficulties raised in your local government register as you have at the present moment. The right hon. Gentleman who advocated this Bill suggested that it was a great thing to get rid of the revising barristers. I believe that the revising barristers do their work remarkably well, and as cheaply as any form of tribunal which you will devise. I never was a revising barrister, but I do not share the contempt which some hon. Members apparently feel for the revising barristers. What are you going to put in their place? The town clerk and the county council clerk, with an appeal to the County Court judge. I do not think that the Ministers who propose that plan can really have gone into the question of the County Courts of the country. If I am right in saying, as I think I am, that a very large number of difficult questions will remain in the electoral law, even if this Bill be passed—my hon. Friend the Member for Mile End (Mr. H. Lawson) pointed out several in the Parliamentary register, and there is the local government register as well—you may have hundreds of cases taken to the County Court. I do not believe that the thing is practicable at all. The County Courts are already very congested. I know a little about the County Courts, because the Bar Council, of which I am a member, made an inquiry into the matter some time ago, and we found over and over again that, even as things stand at present, the County Courts were so absolutely congested that cases were adjourned sitting after sitting. I am perfectly convinced that if you put this amount of extra political work upon the County Courts, the only result will be to dislocate the whole of their business. It is in the County Court that the poor man has to get justice. If you cause great delays in the County Courts you will do very serious injury to those of the poorer classes who have suffered legal wrong, and have to seek the remedy of the law. Therefore, personally, I do not feel that the machinery of this Bill will stand examination; but in view of the fact which the hon. Member for St. Pancras has pointed out, it is useless, in the House of Commons in its present condition, to demonstrate that the proposals are unworkable.
I want to direct the attention of the House to a principle established by the registration proposal. I am not quarreling with it myself, but you are practically establishing the principle of Manhood Suffrage. It was so described by the Colonial Secretary. That is a change in principle of very great importance. I do not agree with those on the other side who have said that our franchise has been founded on some connection with the land, although no doubt that has entered into it for historical reasons. But the theory of our qualification has been that you are to select among the citizens of the country those who are most able to form a sound political judgment and to give them the franchise. For that purpose up to now you have not given it to everyone. You have said that they must show, by the possession of a certain amount of property or otherwise, that they are capable of forming on political subjects a judgment which is worth having. You are going to abandon that. I quite admit that in practice you have whittled it away to such an extent that it does not amount to very much. But you are now going formally to abandon it, and to say that anyone who has stayed in any place for six months, provided he is a man, is to be entitled to vote. You are not going to have any educational or property tax. I ask hon. Members to consider very carefully the great bearing of that upon the question of woman suffrage. If you say that every man, because he is a man, is entitled to vote, and that all question of choosing the best people to direct the government of the country is henceforth to be at an end, are you really able to say that we can exclude every woman from any share in the government? It seems to me an almost impossible position for anyone to take up.
7.0 P.M.
I do not want to argue the question; it has been argued until the House is tired of it. But I ask hon. Members who are opposed to woman suffrage to consider this point. You give the vote to the casual labourer; you refuse it to the woman doctor, highly skilled, trained for years, who makes a large income by her practice. You refuse it to the woman teacher and to thousands, even millions, of other women, who are unquestionably capable intellectually far in excess of the average casual labourer. It is almost pitiful in the face of that to hear such a statement as that of the hon. Baronet, that this was a Bill to remove anomalies. Surely no anomaly could be greater than that. I cannot understand how anyone, who looks at this question apart from prejudice and tradition, can seriously believe that the voters enfranchised by this Bill will every one of them be more capable of exercising the vote than any single woman in the country. The Colonial Secretary referred to this subject, and said: "Oh, well, but your only alternative is to give 10,500,000 women the vote." The right hon. Gentleman is a very vigorous and a very convinced opponent of woman suffrage, but I really do not think that is a fair argument to use. That is not the alternative. He cannot seriously think that the only alternative is between no women and 10,500,000 women. I myself should certainly be opposed to the admission of 10,000,000—either women or men—at one blow to the register. I think it is too large a change. But to say, therefore, you must reject the admission of any single woman seems to me really a controversial method which is scarcely worthy of a Minister of the Crown. For my part I cannot help saying that I do not share altogether the optimism of the hon. Member for St. Pancras. I cannot feel that the attitude of the Government in this matter is very clear or easy to understand. Their pledges are perfectly plain and clear. The whole country understands woman suffrage is to be given an absolutely free and fair chance under this Bill. Nothing is to be done to prejudice it one way or another, so far as the Government, as a Government, are concerned.
I am not sure that I think that that pledge has been very fully carried out by this Bill. The very first line has—I should have thought unnecessarily—the word "may"—emphasising at the very outset that this is not to be a Bill to give women the vote. There is the strange omission of leaving the local government suffrage untouched, with no reason that I can understand except that if you were to touch it you would enfranchise more women than men. I wish to believe as well as I can of the Government, but it is rather discouraging that we have first the President of the Board of Education moving the First Reading of the Bill: he is a strong opponent of woman suffrage. Then we have the Colonial Secretary, who is, I suppose, the strongest opponent of woman suffrage in the whole House, moving the Second Reading of the Bill. I hope and trust that we shall before the Debate closes hear from other occupants of the Treasury Bench who are in favour of the suffrage their views on this Bill. We are entitled to hear them, and I hope and believe we shall. I do earnestly hope and trust that the Government will not adopt a provocative attitude in this matter, which really would not be fair. Here is a very serious question, which is exciting the deepest and strongest feeling in a section of the population. You must treat them fairly. You must not play with them. You must treat this as a serious question. An hon. Member in the Debate which arose the other day on the Home Secretary's salary suggested—I only mention it to clear away any doubt—that I was moved by party feeling in this matter. It is not so. If it were a matter of purely party advantage I had much better leave it alone. I will only create disagreement in my own Constituency by taking a strong line either on one side or another; but I do assure the right hon. Gentleman that this is a subject on which many of us inside and many outside the House feel very strongly indeed. I ask the Government to treat it seriously, and not attempt by any Parliamentary astuteness to take an unfair advantage of those who are in favour of woman suffrage. I re-echo from my heart the aspirations of the hon. Member for St. Pancras that all in favour of this question will be, so far as humanly possible, united. I believe strongly that if we are united the cause of right and justice in this matter will prevail, and women, in some form or other, will receive the vote by this Bill.
I have more difficulty in deciding how to vote upon this measure than on any Bill that has of late come before the House. I need hardly say that, so far as my own Constituency is concerned, an overwhelming majority of the electors are in favour of the abolition of the plural vote; but this Bill, as the Noble Lord truly said, brings in its train a very great injustice to women. I voted for the Conciliation Bill, nor have my views on the question of woman suffrage been affected by the attitude of a certain class of women, like that of certain hon. Members on this side. It seems to me that in this Bill we are going to enfranchise three millions of people who have never asked to be enfranchised, and we are going to leave out a very much larger proportion of highly educated women. This is not a Bill which is to widen the scope of existing registration. Partly that may be so; but you are going to add to the electorate a body of men, I do not say who are not qualified and who ought not to be placed on the register, but while you are adding this additional three millions of men you are leaving off ten and a half millions of women. That is not common justice. It does seem to my mind extraordinary. The House of Commons ought in common fairness to say: "We are going to bring in all classes of men, even the uneducated, and leave out all women altogether." What is the position of the Government? For my part, I think that this Bill, if it had proceeded in relation to plural voting alone, and had not moved further, would at all events had found greater favour in the country, but after the agitation that the women have been carrying on for so many years this Bill is a positive insult, intensified possibly, and a humiliation to them, because the House of Commons is going to say: "You, who have taken this keen interest in the affairs of your country, and who desire to share the civic lfie of your country, shall be debarred from taking any part, and we will bring in those who have never even asked for the vote, because, forsooth, it is an advantage to the party machinery on this side of the House." No doubt there has been a claim made on behalf of simple legislation. One wants to see that, but that is not what this Bill affects.
My objection to the Bill is this: the mere fact of the abolition of plural voting is of no benefit to my Constituency, because my Constituency is entitled, owing to the number of electors, to two representatives. My Constituency consists of between 23,000 and 24,000 electors, and on the present basis of electors the Constituency should have two Members. To abolish plural voting in my Constituency will not in any way meet the view of my Constituents. I want to know what pledge the Government are going to give to the House that this Bill shall be followed by redistribution of seats? It has always been the cry of the Liberal party, as I have known it for the last twenty-five years, "One man one vote," and "one vote one value." I am rather sceptical of the honesty of Governments on questions of procedure. In relation to the Parliament Bill I told my Constituents that I could not vote for it unless the House of Lords as a body was removed, and that second elective chamber set up on the lines indicated by the Prime Minister. Although that was in the Preamble of the Bill, and although that Bill passed this House, and the House of Lords was to be dealt with on a democratic basis—whatever that means—nothing has been done. In view of that how can I vote for this Bill? In the congested state of public business it seems to me very doubtful whether the Government will carry out their pledge and bring in a Redistribution Bill at the same time that this Bill comes into operation. In the course of this debate no one has mentioned this point, I think: Assume that this Bill goes from this House up to another place, and that the natural fate of it will be that it will be deferred. If it is postponed, it will be impossible to set up the necessary machinery to delimit the boundaries, and the consequence will be that you will have no redistribution at all. Under the procedure in the Bill, as I take it—I may be wrong—it will not be possible, if it is thrown out, and if for two years it does not become law, to arrange for redistribution. What is going to happen to your Boundary Commission?
There is no power taken in this Bill for a settlement of the boundaries; therefore if the Bill is rejected what is going to happen? The net effect of it will be, as I wish to impress upon the Minister for Education and through him on the Government, that you will pass the abolition of plural voting at the end of the second year, and not have had time to set up your Boundary Commission or supply the Commissioners with the necessary information to enable them to do their work. If this Bill is rejected by the other House the natural consequence will be that you will have abolished plural voting, but you will have no redistribution of seats. That is of no use to my Constituents. I do not want it to be thought for a moment that I do not wish plural voting to pass. I have advocated such abolition all my life, but I do not like the method by which this Bill proceeds. I do not think, at all events, that a great party ought to be a party to any system of log-rolling for the benefit of our own party—and I am sure it is not the wish of the Government. Still, I think the procedure of the Bill as framed will have that tendency. I scarcely therefore know in what position I stand in relation to voting for the Bill. You are going to enfranchise two and a half million of additional voters and exclude all women from the Bill. I cannot do that. It would be a gross injustice if I gave a vote to that effect. Therefore I am in a very great difficulty how to vote on the Bill, for I am strongly in favour of the abolition of plural voting. The Noble Lord who has just sat down stated that he and his party were in favour of one man one vote and one value. I do not know whether he spoke for his party. If he does, that is an admission from the other side of great value, and I think those on this side of the House might very well accept that view if it is shared by the party opposite. Surely if the party opposite are in favour of the principle of one man one vote, one vote one value, and if they are in favour of making registration simpler, it ought not to be necessary to carry this Bill by party machinery.
The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford referred to a true Reform Bill, and contended that University representation gave the views in this House of the educated classes. The view of the educated classes, as I have seen it represented by the Noble Lord, has been hardly of a character on several occasions either of setting an example to the country of good order, not only in debate, but in the language the Noble Lord has used towards the Prime. Minister and others which should be followed. If that is the view of the educated classes which we received from the Noble Lord, I think the sooner the voice of the educated classes as represented by him is abolished the better. I should like to ask the Government where we are exactly on this question of woman suffrage? The Government ought to give a lead to the House, and if the Cabinet disagree upon this question, the House ought to have the exact position placed before them. To leave a grave matter of this kind to the House without any lead from the Government is entirely without precedent. There has never been a question of great reform, and this is a great measure of reform, upon which the Government did not give a definite lead to the House, instead of leaving Members to go their own way upon such an important question. It is not a party question, because it strikes right across the whole line of party feeling. I hope, therefore, even at this late hour, the Government will come to a decision and give the House a definite lead, so that those of us who wish to vote for the abolition of plural voting may be in a position to do so. As this Bill stands at the present time, I shall have no option so far as I can see, if the Government give no lead on the question of the enfranchisement of women, but to vote against the Bill.
I am very glad to have heard the words which have fallen from the lips of the hon. Member for Mansfield, who has just sat down. The hon. Member usually exercises an independent attitude. He has done so in the past, and in spite of the honours showered upon him by the present Government he is not always a supporter of theirs. He has had the courage, at all events, of expressing his opinion upon the floor of this House, and I cannot help thinking that if a few other supporters of the present Government were equally courageous it would be a good thing for this country. I have listened to various speakers from the Ministerial Benches describing the attitude of the Government on this question as an extremely tolerant attitude. I cannot help thinking that if we had seen a little more tolerance in the legislation which is being forced through this House in the course of the present Session it would be a good thing for the people of the country. I wish to add my protest to those who have gone before me with regard to forcing the Second Reading of such an important measure as this at such an extremely late period of the Session. Generally speaking we ought to be about to rise from our labours at this period of the year, but this Government intend to keep us sitting here for a much longer period if they are to pass proposals such as this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Some hon. Gentlemen opposite profess to welcome that, but I should like to hear their views at a later period of the Session. Hon. Gentlemen know perfectly well that the Parliamentary machine at the present moment is completely clogged. Why at such a moment should a measure of this importance be introduced? There is one reason and one reason alone, and it is this: The Government know from the result of the by-elections that have taken place in the course of the present year that their unpopularity has become more and more evident, and they know that if they were compelled to appeal to the country at the present moment, under present conditions, they would not have an earthly chance of being returned again to power. So in order to try and maintain themselves in office they bring forward a measure to gerrymander the constituencies to their own advantage.
Nobody can pretend for a single moment that this Bill is going to be of the slightest advantage to the nation or to the British Empire. It is a Bill which is going to give an advantage to the Radical party and the Radical party alone, but it does not attempt to touch the greatest anomaly of our present electoral system, namely, the farce that one Member should be sent to this House by some 60,000 electors, while another is sent to this House by some 1,700. The hon. Member for Mansfield has already spoken on that topic, and he asked what pledge the Government are going to give that they will bring in at a later period a Redistribution Bill. I should be glad to hear what the answer of the Government will be. Will any pledge be given to the hon. Gentleman? He nods his head. He has already complained that the Government did not fulfil their pledge with regard to the Parliament Act, even though it was in the Preamble to the Bill. After that experience can any pledge of the Government be satisfactory? Everyone knows the pledge of the Government is worthless. A small portion of this Bill is honest in its purpose; but does that make the whole measure an honest measure? I venture to say that a more dishonest measure than this Bill was never presented to this House, than that which we are discussing at the present moment. The Government believe that by lowering the franchise qualification and adding some 2,500,000 or 3,000,000 voters, it may be from the lower end of the social scale, that they will be able to maintain themselves in office. Whether that is true or not we shall see later on. In order to further effect their object they intend to do away with the plural vote. The plural vote is the only opportunity which property owners have of giving a vote in defence of their own landed property. They are to be deprived of it because hon. Members opposite say that that vote is good for the Unionist party. Then the land owners must be all Unionists. Was that always so? Has it not been brought about by the legislation in recent years of the present Government? Has it not been brought about by attacks made by the Radical party upon the owners of the land, and is it not a fact that it is the attacks which are contemplated in the near future on the land that are making those owners turn round and accord their support to the only moderate party we have in the State at the present time. I maintain that in view of the legislation the Government have passed in the past and intend to pass in the future that the land owners ought to be allowed to have a vote in defence of that land.
This Bill is to do away with the representation of the universities. Why? With one object and one object alone; because every representative of the universities is a supporter of the Unionist party. That is the only reason. The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University pointed out that if the university representatives were divided half and half, if there were even a small number of Radical Members in this House representing universities, the Government would not touch them? Not for a moment. It is solely because they are supporters of the party to which I have the honour to belong. What a confession it is the Government and the supporters of the Government have to make when they get up in this House and have to admit that the most highly educated vote we have in this country—the universities—is invariably and by large majorities cast for the supporters of the Unionist party. I will put this question to hon. Members above the Gangway opposite, and I would ask them to think very carefully upon it: Will this measure have the effect which they desire—Hon. Members below the Gangway opposite and the representatives of the Labour party believe that the passing of this measure will bring enormous advantage to them. They believe, and probably believe correctly, that these voters to be added to the register will be supporters of the Labour party. The Labour party we know in the House of Commons up to the present poses as the friend and supporter of the Government, but we see what is going on in the country outside. We know why hon. Members who represent Labour in this House are absent at the present moment. It is because they are attacking two constituencies of moderate Liberals. That is what the Government will have to face in the near future. The effect of this Bill will be in the eyes of the Labour party to get rid of the moderate Liberal and to replace him by extreme men who will be supporters of the policy of the Labour party. Moderate Liberals who sit above the Gangway and who were known in the past to be moderate men are to be squeezed out of the political arena unless they turn round and give their support to the party we represent in this House. Is that the desire of hon. Members above the Gangway opposite?
We are told that later on in the Committee stage—and we heave heard many speeches already upon the subject—that by the passing of a small Amendment women are to be given votes. If that is. so, it seems that some 10,500,000 women are to be added to the voting lists of this country. The hon. Member for Mansfield spoke upon this topic and asked for a lead. I am surprised he asked for a lead from the leaders of this party. We know what his own Leader has said. Does the hon. Member or anybody else defend the attitude taken up by the Prime Minister on this subject? Who is going to give the hon. Member a lead? I believe upon this question the Prime Minister is a coward. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] His attitude is one of cowardice; he has already told the House of Commons and the country that to pass woman suffrage would in his opinion be a national disaster and yet in this House he has said that if a majority of this House so desired he would give his support to what he has characterised as a national disaster, because he has said that he would support the Third Reading if it included woman suffrage. I should like to ask his party what is their judgment of the attitude of their Leader. I have not the slightest doubt what the judgment of the country will be. Before a Bill of such vital importance is passed into law, or before it passes the Second Reading, the electors ought to be allowed to give an expression of their opinion upon it. Do the electors wish to have this Bill? I do not believe they do. The Government do the utmost they can to stave off an election, and why? Because they know if an election takes place what is in store for them. If the moderate supporters of the Government only knew what was going to happen if this Bill passes into law they would take the opportunity of voting against it on every possible occasion. This Government is being urged to disaster by their extreme supporters and the Members of the Labour party. They are following the path that will lead them to their own destruction, and I am confident if this measure is passed the Government will be placed even more under the heel of the Labour party than they are at the present moment.
I presume I may put myself down as one of those moderate Members, who, according to the hon. Member opposite, is going to be squeezed out. I may say that I view that prospect with considerable equanimity. I listened to the speech made in support of this Amendment by the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), and I think it has really thrown much light upon the attitude of the Conservative party towards this measure. We have been told that plural voting is necessary in defence of vested interests and that the anomalies of our registration system, for which no one has been able to discover any ground in reason or logic, were also necessary as constituting the incidental advantages of property. The hon. Member opposite said he was in favour of the principle of One Man One Vote accompanied by One Vote One Value. I notice that the Unionist candidate at one of the by-elections has also declared himself in favour of One Man One Vote. That throws some light upon the opinion expressed by my hon. Friend who spoke on this side, and who said that this measure was not required. I have not found that to be so, but I have found a very considerable demand in my own Constituency for this measure. The hon. Member for Chelmsford reminded me of the famous definition that Conservatism was distrust of the people qualified by fear. The qualification of fear is shown by the attitude of the Unionist candidate at by-elections, and there is no doubt that distrust of the democracy is to be found on the Conservative Front Bench. I do not agree with the claim which is set up from the other side, that it is necessary to keep in existence these artificial barriers for the land-owning and employing classes. One hon. Member opposite said that by this measure we were disfranchising land, and the hon. Member who spoke last said we were taking away the votes of the landlords. May I remind him that they are still left with one vote, and that ought to be good enough for them. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not take that away, too?" They have considerable influence in addition, which their wealth and position gives them, and with that they ought to be content. What is wanted is that we should have a fairer system under which those who have not the advantages of wealth and position should be established on something like a fair condition of equality with those who have hitherto had by far the best of it in this country.
I fully agree with what the Colonial Secretary said when he asserted that this was not introducing a new element into the Constitution, and it is not lowering the franchise. We have already enfranchised the poorest of the population. We have enfranchised those who live in the slums, for example. It is quite true that this Bill is not taking a new class of the population and enfranchising them, but it is only dealing with the leakage which arises from the anomalies of the registration system. There are a great many anomalies which are indefensible in our registration system, and it is largely due to these accidents that we get such a large leakage. We are not introducing any new element, but we are simply making our electoral system do what it professes to do, but what it really fails to do. I agree with the criticism which has been passed as to the age at which a man should be qualified to give his vote. I think the age of twenty-one is perhaps low, but when you are having a general manhood system may I point out that many countries have got the age of twenty-five. I do not wish anyone to be disfranchised. Taking the precedent of the old Franchise Acts, anyone who is on the register already might clearly be left on; but I think no new voter should come upon the register unless he has attained the age of twenty-five. I do not agree with the other side in their defence of university representation. I do not think that that belongs to the category of redistribution, but it belongs to the category of plural voting. University representation is not a representation of the residents of the university, but of a great number of people who have got a degree, and they are scattered about the country, and have votes for the places where they reside. It is therefore in place in a Bill which does not deal with redistribution to deal with university representation, which is merely one form of plural voting.
There might seem to be a case for university representation; but it has not proved very successful. I do not wish to be uncomplimentary to the distinguished representatives of universities in this House, but they are not impartially detached from our ordinary political discussions to the extent which one might desire, and they are not of that type which perhaps universities are expected to produce. Those hon. Members who represent universities seem to be very much like the ordinary Members, and they do not represent any very distinct class; and they do not produce a new type of representative who is of any particular advantage to this House. The present representatives might as well come from any other constituency, so far as I can see, and so far as those who vote in the university constituencies have a vote elsewhere I think they might be content with that vote. I want to deal with the question of redistribution, upon which there appears to be a fallacy very tenaciously held on the opposite side of the House. A Noble Lord opposite asked me if I am in favour of redistribution. I may say that I am, and it is impossible to defend the inequalities of our present Parliamentary representation. I should like to see the system adopted which prevails in America and some of our Colonies, under which you get an automatic redistribution at fixed intervals, so that we might get away from these perpetual exchanges of insinuations and motives on one side or the other, when one side or the other is taking up the question.
Why did the Unionist party, when they were in power in 1905, fail to introduce redistribution? They contemplated it, and passed it by. [An HON. MEMBER: "They did introduce it."] Yes, they did introduce it, but they never passed it through. It is supposed that on this side of the House we are afraid of redistribution, because it is going to be some party disadvantage to us. I know if you take individual cases you can show that some of the seats with a great number of electors are held by hon. Members belonging to the party opposite, and if you single out certain instances that will no doubt give some colour to that view. The Colonial Secretary said that if we passed a Redistribution Bill we could duplicate the Solicitor-General. Equally we could treble the hon. Member for Wimbledon, and we could quadruple the hon. Member for Romford. It is no use, however, taking individual constituencies like that. Hon. Members opposite hold the smallest constituency in England, and we hold the largest. Of the constituencies having more than 20,000 electors, including the Labour constituencies, we hold thirty-two, and hon. Members opposite hold twenty-two of them. If redistribution means that you are going to distribute the largest and give more Members in those cases we should have more Members in this House. Take, as a further example, those constituencies below 5,000 electors. Of these the Conservatives hold twenty-two seats, the Liberals thirteen, and the Labour party one. Therefore hon. Members opposite have twenty-two and we have fourteen. If you take constituencies under 7,000 electors hon. Members opposite have thirty and we have thirty-two. So that whether you look at the small or the large constituencies we have something to gain by redistribution, and hon. Members opposite have a good deal to lose. Therefore there is really no party advantage to be gained at all. That is my answer to the Noble Lord.
Is the hon. Member including Ireland in those figures?
There are two points which make up the question of redistribution. One is the movement of the population of Great Britain, and the other is the Irish representation. When hon. Members say the Treaty of Union is sacrosanct and cannot be changed, it would indeed be an outrage to refuse to modify it in deference to the wishes of hon. Members from Ireland, but to modify it in the direction wholly contrary to their wishes. That is taken out of the question altogether, because we are cutting down the representation of Ireland to a point even below what the Irish might fairly claim. Ireland is an entirely separate point. One hon. Member who spoke earlier said you ought to cut the Irish question of redistribution right away from the question of redistribution. If hon. Members will therefore really look at the facts of redistribution they will see that is not the reason. Hon. Members opposite are perpetually complaining that the Government is crowding the Session with large measures, but at the same time directly a Bill is brought in they say, "This Bill is all right, with some addendum. You should deal with the whole problem of electoral law, and not merely with the franchise and registration. You should introduce redistribution." Supposing we had done so, surely there would have been an outcry that it was an outrage to introduce another large measure in a crowded Session. The country has not yet fully realised what are the new conditions under which a Government which does not possess the confidence of another place is bound to legislate during the first two or three years of its existence.
I pass to the question of woman's suffrage. My hon. Friend (Sir A. Markham) felt himself in some difficulty. I think we who are suffragists ought in common fairness to pay our tribute to the position which the Prime Minister has taken up on the very difficult and intricate problem of woman's suffrage in reference to this Bill. Everybody recognises his strong convictions, and his genuine opposition to the question of woman suffrage. We disagree with him, but I am bound to say we must recognise he has met us very fairly. He has really strained the constitutional position of the Prime Minister in leaving this question with the House. I do not think we suffragists have any reason to complain about that. I think the justification for his attitude rests on the fact that this question of woman suffrage divides parties in such a way that it cannot be fairly treated in this House. It is not a party question. No Government could possibly be formed which could make it a party question, and, if it is to wait until it is made a Government question with the Government in favour of it, it must wait for ever, even although there may be a majority for it if you take the suffragists on all sides of the House together. Therefore, I think we ought in justice to recognise that the Government, in leaving this question to the House, has treated us with a great deal of fairness. In this way, the Government has given the question of woman suffrage a great Parliamentary chance which it could not otherwise have obtained. I regret that has not been seen outside in the country. It is nothing short of a tragedy that so good a Parliamentary chance has been jeopardised, imperilled, and perhaps destroyed, by the senseless outrages of suffragettes out of doors. Against frenzied stupidity the gods strive in vain. We who are suffragists must gratefully accept the chance which has been offered to us. It is our duty to try and improve that chance as far as we can. The Colonial Secretary said it was an alternative between enfranchising 10½ million women and a few propertied women voters. I do not agree. There is a halfway house between those two. I agree it is not practical politics to ask this House to enfranchise 10½ million women. That is not the way in which extensions of the franchise have occurred in this House. Hitherto we have tried to take a section of the electorate and to entrust them with the duty of acting as voters, and that, I believe, is what we have got to do at the present time.
I confess I do not like the idea of taking merely the local government electors who are women and conferring the Parliamentary franchise upon them. The local government franchise is full of anomalies. We want a uniform Parliamentary franchise, and it would indeed be a strange thing to set up a Parliamentary franchise which was different in London, in the rest of England and in Ireland and Scotland There are other objections, I also agree, to taking the local government elector as the basis. I, personally, think it is possible, while you are granting the residential franchise to men, to adapt, to modify, and to extend the old household qualification in the case of women. In that way you would enfranchise the mistress of the household, married or unmarried, and I believe that would make as good a selection of the womanhood of England as we could well obtain. Therefore, I would say to any suffragist who wishes to vote for this Bill, and who is in doubt as to his attitude, that I think it is impossible to ask the Government, knowing the division of opinion in it, to give one unanimous or united voice in favour of any solution. We may be well content with their leaving it to the House of Commons to find a way through it. But I do think all the suffragists in the House ought to welcome the introduction of this Bill as giving a chance of dealing with the problem of woman suffrage which could not be got in any other way. I do not think it is impossible for this House to devise a scheme which would be at once practicable and just to the womanhood of the country. We are always being told that private Members have no say in the shaping of legislation. Here, for once, Members of all parties have the responsibility thrown upon them of finding a solution. I agree with what has been previously said by the Noble Lord and by other speakers on this side of the House, that it would be a great disaster if we could not succeed in uniting our forces as far as possible so at last to find a satisfactory solution of a difficult problem.
His Majesty's Government, in introducing this Bill, seem to found themselves upon an old maxim in our political affairs that our Constitution is built up upon anomalies, and, they seem to regard it as the acme of success that their new anomalies are at any rate not less striking than the old. His Majesty's Government have the advantage in introducing a measure of this kind of a great degree of common sent in public opinion. I do not think many intelligent people doubt that the time has passed when you should exclude a man from the exercise of the franchise because he happens not to have resided for something like two years in one place. Many people doubt—I think the doubters are as numerous on this side as on that—whether a justification can be found in times of enlightenment for a deliberate inequality in the distribution of political power. I think on the political platform it is much more difficult to stand out for the right of a man who has two estates and has two votes than it is to extenuate it here in the House of Commons. If you are discussing the question of electoral right or electoral privilege in the country, you do not find very great appreciation for a state of things in which a man who happens to be wealthy enough to get an M.A. degree is better off in respect of political power than a man who has only been well enough off to establish a household of his own and settle down in one place for life. I agree with hon. Members on the other side of the House that a political party could not sustain itself with any very great comfort from the point of view of reason, either upon the restrictive advantages of an elaborate system of registration or upon a scheme of privilege which provided inequality of political power.
If we have in this country to reckon with revolutionary forces, we shall find it exceedingly difficult to restrain them by mere artificial restrictions. Revolutionary forces are not tied down by that means any more than Samson was bound down by green withes. I do not think the British Constitution provides any machinery which is calculated for putting permanent restriction upon revolutionary forces or even for introducing satisfactory checks to prevent their speedy operation.
8.0 P.M.
His Majesty's Government, as I said, has the great advantage of a consensus of public opinion with regard to the insufficiency of our present facilities for getting on to the register and the excess of facilities under our present system for getting off the register. It also has among its own political supporters a large body of opinion which is strongly opposed, and opposed upon grounds quite easy to comprehend, to a system under which one man has two, five, or ten votes, whereas his neighbour has only one and cannot have any other. His Majesty's Government, instead of taking advantage of this consensus of opinion to promote the public benefit, has taken advantage of it to promote party purposes in its own interests. That, unfortunately, is the stigma which rests not only upon this measure, but on most of the other measures of the Government. It has in Ireland a great body of opinion in favour of Home Rule, but it uses it to destroy the British House of Lords. It has in England a great body of opinion against the privileges of the House of Lords and it uses it to destroy the unity of the United Kingdom. It has a great consensus of opinion in favour of the removal of obsolete restrictions and obsolete privileges, and it uses it with deliberate foresight, in view of what is in front of us during the next few years, in order to gerrymander existing constituencies and to take care, if human foresight can prevent it, that it shall not be deprived of a majority the next time it goes to the country. One hon. Member advocated this Bill as a great reform, but His Majesty's Government have taken the opportunity to make it a great abuse, and they will succeed in effecting their purpose if hon. Members have no sense of fairness to their opponents and to the country. The hon. Member who spoke last made a speech which would command a great deal of assent from this side. He spoke of the position in which the Government stand vis-à-vis with the House of Lords in the present state of the Constitution. He pleaded that condition of affairs as an excuse for filling up this Session with legislative projects which the Government has not had time to settle and which this House cannot have reasonable time to consider or debate. The hon. Member must have lost sight of the fact that his leaders have been sagacious enough to produce the present position, and he has also lost sight of the fact that they cannot be trusted not to abuse the position in which they find themselves. They have been given a position of tremendous power and influence, and they propose to use it in a manner which we, on this side of the House, have now come to expect of them.
With regard to the proposals of this Bill for simplifying the system of registration, I do not believe there is a Member on this side of the House who is not pledged to support a simplification of the register. Many of us have done all we could for years to promote that kind of change, and there is no election which takes place, certainly in my own experience, in which one does not meet considerable numbers of persons who, upon every ground of qualification, ought to be entitled to a vote, but who, under the present system of occupation, have not one. The Government would be warranted in amending that system, and if this had been a Registration Simplification Bill it would have passed through at any hour of the day or night without difficulty. But it is not that. The proposals the Government have made to simplify registration rather tend to complicate it. My hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Sir H. Samuel) spoke with great experience on this subject. He said he had not any doubt that the new system would tend very much to complication, and that it would give the heavy purse a new and undesirable advantage in the management of constituencies in future times. The hon. Baronet the Member for Nottinghamshire (Sir A. B. Markham) spoke in very much the same sense. The Government have not had time to provide against risks of that kind because they do not spare themselves time, in the multiplicity of their series of projects, to frame a reasonable scheme for the simplification of the register. If this Bill simplified the register, if it shortened the period of qualification, if it dealt with matters of that kind, I am quite sure that the pledges under which Members are, on this side of the House, would secure the Government not only sympathy but active support.
The Government have to deal, too, under their own pledges, with the system of plural voting. That in the past has been the subject of separate proposals, and I believe that the majority of Members on this side of the House are pledged to this view, that if you will give to the vote equal value you shall give to the voter equal power—summed up shortly in the phrase "One man, one vote, one value." But the Government will not do that. It has no intention of providing that, at any rate at the next election, when the votes are recorded, they shall have one value. Their supporter, the Member for Lincoln (Mr. C. Roberts), might have given them heart to pursue something like righteousness, if that be possible in politics, with regard to this matter. He assured them that it would not hurt them to redistribute. But then we know that they have not the courage either by this Bill or by a separate Bill to set up their Redistribution Commission to parcel out the country in such a way as that the most glaring anomalies that exist at the present time shall not be perpetuated, they have instead aggravated them by an enormous addition to existing constituencies, and the extent of the scandal of that anomaly has been brought home to the mind of every elector in this country. My hon. Friend the Member for the Honiton Division (Major Morrison-Bell), has rendered great public service by illustrating in various ways the extent of that anomaly. Members on both sides in politics confess the existence of the anomaly, yet the Government comes here with a system which, while it professes to get rid of the anomalies and simplify our system of electoral representation, actually perpetuates the anomalies and does not show the least desire to take any steps to simplify the system. It does not pay it even the humble compliment of recognition in the Preamble of this Bill. But then I suppose that their experiments in preamble-making have been such in the past as to discourage them, and that is the reason for, not the modesty, but the shame they show in shrinking from introducing another Preamble under false pretences.
There is the anomaly—glaring, scandalous, mischievous in the working of the political system of the country, and offensive to the elector. The elector in Romford or Wimbledon looks with disgust on the political system which reduces his political authority to less than one-twentieth of the political authority of the elector in a remote Irish borough. The Government take no account of it, not because they are not aware of it, but because the time is not convenient. This Bill of makeshifts professing to simplify our political system, deals with the political system so as to aggravate the anomaly. In Romford, I suppose, having regard to the extent of the increase of the franchise instead of 50,000, or whatever the number may be, you will add another 40 per cent. to that swollen constituency, and these are the contituencies in which at present the unenfranchised voter is to be found. It is not in Kilkenny, it is not in Durham, or in any of the little boroughs that you find huge numbers of possible electors who are excluded from the franchise by the present system. It is in the great urban constituencies, and probably you will find constituencies with 60,000 or 70,000 electors side by side with constituencies of 4,000 and under. That is an aggravation of the evils of the present system which the Government deliberately ignores at the present time. What will be the position when this Bill is passed as now framed? The inevitable result will be to necessitate, as the first work of the successors of His Majesty's Ministers a new scheme dealing with political questions which this Bill only complicates. You must have a Bill dealing with electoral qualifications and with redistribution. The Government has spent many months and even years without having had the courage to set up a Redistribution Commission, and it will probably pass to the end of its days without reaching that pitch of bravery. The subject will consequently remain to be dealt with. What is it the public demands that it does not get under this system with regard to qualification? We have at the present time in this country the remains of a system which has grown up during many generations and which has worked with, on the whole, admirable results, but which is open to theoretical criticisms, and, particularly, to the objections of doctrinaire politicians. It is also open to some reasonable objection on principles of equality and democratic control, to which both parties in this country are bound and will have to submit, whether they like it or not. There are these inequalities.
The Government has not the courage to deal with the real question and to say, "The qualification shall not be this or that property or that duration of occupation: the qualification shall be a human qualification; it shall be the qualification of the existence of a subject in the State." The Government has not the courage to say that. If it had we should have had a basis which would form a proper ground for reasonable discussion, but nothing of the kind. The basis of the position of the subject in the State would necessitate the letting in of the woman voter. If the qualification were a household qualification, if it depended upon the possession of nothing less than the liability to obey the law, and to bear such burdens as may be imposed by some man or other, you would have to deal with the woman's qualification. If you proposed adult suffrage, I do not think any Member doubts that that would raise a wave of feeling in this country, which, if it did not sweep the present Government from office, would secure such a revolt against trickery in politics of the kind to which we have been subjected in recent years as would result in the addition to the electorate of qualified women voters. But right hon. Gentlemen shrink from the qualified woman voter on the ground that her enfranchisement is an additional advantage given to property—the woman householder may not be enfranchised because she will also provide an instance of additional advantage to property. If the Government is ready to give what in everything but name amounts in substance to adult suffrage, I think it will find that Members on this side of the House who have not seen their way in the past to cast a vote in favour of the enfranchisement of women will feel the necessity of taking any step which may introduce the trained and reflecting mind and sense of responsibility into the settlement of our political questions. You enfranchise here what an hon. Member called "the leakage of the present system"—not a very high compliment to the 3,000,000 of people or thereabouts who do not find their way on the register at present. The people who are on the register are people who for the most part have qualified themselves by the performance of social duties, and by undertaking burdens and responsibility in the State. And there is this to be said for His Majesty's Government about what their critic on the other side calls the leakage; they have no more idea than we have of what these electors really consist or what their qualification is for the performance of political duties. If there are men much above the age of tweny-one years who have failed to obtain the franchise, their number is very small indeed compared with the two or three million people who are proposed to be added by this Bill. The people who are unable to qualify themselves do not amount to anything like that number, and are a mere fraction in every constituency. The people who really fail to qualify themselves are those who fail to secure a settled home for any long period of time. It is quite true that the problem is different in the Metropolitan boroughs, and in some of the great industrial constituencies in the provinces, from what it is in most provincial towns. No doubt life is much more settled in the provincial towns, and there is less probability of a man failing to obtain the franchise if he desires to obtain a franchise. The man who for years has been disfranchised, who is disfranchised during half a lifetime, is a political curiosity, and for the real purposes of the conflict of parties he does not exist. The man who does not get enfranchised at the present time is the man who does not reside in a settled habitation, the man who never takes either a house or rooms for himself. The Government have no idea, and I do not believe that any politician in this House knows with certainty, what will be the effect upon the electorate of enfranchising two millions and upwards of that class of voter. I should have thought, for that if for no other reason, that the Government might have been less ambitious than they have been in this scheme, and that while they were trying the experiment of having an additional 40 per cent. on the electoral roll, they might have left upon the electorate a body of voters who certainly have some reason for their existence, some reason in their stake in the country, in their trained electoral knowledge, and who would only temper the additional 40 per cent. by a fraction of about 10 per cent. If they were experimenting in anomalies, why could not the Government have taken that course?
For my own part, if this had been a Bill for dealing with registration and its anomalies, I should have welcomed it, and, so far as lay in my power, I should have desired, if there were any defects in it, to remove them. If the Government even now drop the rest of their proposals and dealt with registration, so as to give the qualified person under our present system a fair chance of being upon the register, I do not believe the Bill would meet with any opposition; certainly it would not meet with any organised opposition from this side of the House. If the Government desired to go farther, to simplify the conditions with regard to residence, and to introduce a residential qualification under reasonable restrictions—to provide, for instance, that a man on reaching twenty-five years of age, living in this country, and without having had the good fortune to possess a settled home of his own, should be qualified to be an elector—I should think such a proposal well worthy of consideration. I do not believe it would have been vehemently criticised, and I feel sure, it would not have been vehemently opposed on this side of the House. With regard to the matter of adding what an hon. Member has called the leakage, or the unknown element, of something like 40 per cent. to the existing electorate, taking no account of the enormous strength which is added to the claim of the qualified woman voter if the unqualified male voter is to be added wholesale, even if the Government had taken a course of that kind and had included Redistribution in their proposals, I should not have been prepared to vote against the Second Reading of the Bill. The Government does not take any of these courses; it panders to political passion by this proposal, and it disfranchises to some extent the landed class. I am not frightened by the disfranchisement of the landed class. If they are to be disfranchised, I know there is a Nemesis for Governments as well as for land owners, and some of us will live long enough to see how these things work. If the Government, instead of dealing with the problem on non-contentious and honest lines, choose to introduce proposals of this kind, designed to put an Opposition in the odious position of having to vote against the Second Reading of a Bill, some parts of which command popular approval, because other parts are dishonest; if the Government choose to pursue their customary tactics with regard to this question, so far as I am concerned I have not the least doubt what kind of vote I ought to give, and all I can do to thwart this scheme of gerrymandering I shall do.
The hon. and learned Gentleman, who has just sat down, seems to oppose this Bill because it goes too far. I have an opinion in the opposite direction, I do not think the Bill goes far enough, and I shall have a few words to say as to what the Bill ought to do. But I welcome the Bill so far as it goes, and I think that everyone who desires to remove the anomalies connected with our franchise system ought also to welcome it. We ought to simplify the franchise so far as it is possible to do so. Everyone in this House has had a great deal to do with electioneering, and must have come across many anomalies connected with the system of voting, and many people who from time to time have been disfranchised on account of removal. Our party does not believe in a property qualification. We believe that the vote ought to be for simple citizenship, and that every citizen of full age ought to be able to give a vote for the person who is to represent him in this House. Our ideal is that every adult, whether man or woman, should have a vote in a Parliamentary election. I do not understand why the Government apply the Bill only to males, unless it is on account of their disagreements. So far as the party with whom I generally act are concerned, we shall, when the Committee stage comes on, move to include women on the same terms as men, and we shall vote for any Amendment having that object in view. Objection is raised to this Bill in some instances because it goes too far, and in other instances because it does not go far enough. It is really difficult to know what to do to please hon. Gentlemen opposite. So far as I am concerned, and I think I may speak for those with whom I usually act, we are in favour of redistribution and of one vote one value, quite as much as hon. Gentlemen opposite, but there are certain conditions which must foe attached.
Reference was made by the Colonial Secretary to the fact that the Act of Union provided that there must be, so long as that Act was in force, one hundred representatives from Ireland. I could be no party at any time to voting for a redistribution of seats for Ireland so long as that Act of Union is in operation, unless Ireland is allowed one hundred Members. If our predecessors made a definite and solemn bargain, we ought to carry out that bargain to the fullest extent. We shall be in a position in the next two or three years to vote for a redistribution of seats, because I hope and believe that by that time the Home Rule Bill will be passed; there will be a smaller number of Members required from Ireland, and we shall be in a position to vote for a redistribution. I understood the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Harcourt) to say that before the next General Election there will be a Redistribution Bill introduced, and if that pledge is carried into effect I do not see any reason why hon. Members opposite should object. There seems to be an idea that the persons who are going to be enfranchised by this Bill are casual workers. Nothing of the kind. A very large number of people who are not casual workers, but are in somewhat regular occupation, will be enfranchised. I welcome the alteration of the qualifying period. It is a scandal that under the registration system of this country anyone should have to wait two and a half years before being entitled to vote. At one election I was in that unfortunate position myself. A very large number indeed who are disfranchised at every election are not casual workers, because in the Metropolitan Boroughs just as in large urban constituencies inpinging on one another, if a man moves across the street in certain districts he may lose his vote for two and a half years. So, under these circumstances, I welcome the alteration in regard to the six months qualification. It ought to be the case that the local authorities should be compelled to see to it that everyone who is entitled to be on the register is on. The local officer ought to be compelled to see that it is done under penalty; and it ought not to require so much of the party registration agent to be looking after persons getting on the register as at present. If a man removes from one place to another, it does not make him any the less a citizen, and he ought not to be disqualified on that ground, and if the local authorities will see to it from time to time they will be able to get these people on the register just as easily as they get them on the rate book, and there is not much difficulty in getting them on the rate book as a rule.
The same arguments are used against this Bill as have been used against every Franchise Bill which has been introduced for a hundred years back, and there has been exactly the same arguments in regard to the question of education. The Noble Lord (Lord Robert Cecil) argued that people who were better educated ought to have more electoral power. I do not believe in any such principle as that. Everyone has to obey the laws—everyone is on an equal plane in that respect—and everyone ought to have the same right to have a voice in the framing of those laws. The fact that a person has property does not make him more intelligent. There are many ways of getting wealth, but wealth does not make a man have more regard for the institutions of the country; and it certainly in many instances does not give a man more regard for the welfare of the poor. As regards university representation it is a difficult thing to attempt to convince any body of working men that universities ought to have representatives, simply because they are seats of learning. There can be nothing said personally against the class of representatives who come from the universities. They are men of high standing who can make good speeches and speak in a cultured manner; but generally my experience has been that they are reactionary. They have not supported the working classes much, and they have generally looked after the benefits of their own class. So that so far as university representation is concerned we can do very well without it. It is a species of plural voting, and because they happen to represent a university, because they happen to have been at a university, that is no reason why they should have two votes. On these grounds I am opposed to plural voting of every description whatever. One man one vote is my ideal, and I might go further and say one woman one vote.
I think the Bill ought to go further than it does. We have had remarks made from time to time in regard to payment of Members from hon. Gentlemen opposite. I think this Bill ought to include payment of returning officers' expenses. This is an official Bill, and money is to be spent in official work connected with elections, and it ought to be paid for out of the rates. I notice that on the First Reading a number of hon. Members opposite were quite agreed that that ought to be a public charge. They do not agree with payment of Members, they say, though there are very few who do not take the money—they can be counted on the fingers—so that so far as that is concerned they would be well-advised to cease talking in the way they do as long as they take the salaries. Another thing that I think ought to be done is that we should have all elections on one day. There is very great disturbance in business when elections are going on, and we ought to provide for a minimum of disturbance if it can possibly be done. I see no reason why all elections should not be on one day exactly as municipal elections are conducted. If it can be done with regard to local elections certainly it can be done in regard to Parliamentary. Again it would be an advantge if there were fewer conveyances used, or if they were prohibited altogether, except perhaps in the case of invalids. At present we are engaged in two three-cornered fights. No one likes these three-cornered fights unless it is the party which wants to slip in between two progressive sets of voters. At any rate as a general principle I think it is wrong to have minority Members. I certainly should not like to be a minority Member myself. If the Bill could enact some system, either of prohibiting elections of that description or of providing that Members who are returned should have a majority of votes, it would be a much better Bill than it is now. I welcome the Bill as far as it goes, and we shall endeavour to improve it in Committee, and so far as we are concerned we shall vote for the Second Reading.
With some remarks of the hon. Member I am in full agreement. We on this side of the House, I am sure, do not object to a wider extension of the electoral system. Our whole argument and the purport of this Amendment is that a measure of this description should be introduced at the proper time and not at this inopportune moment. Nor should an electoral franchise of so far-reaching and sweeping a character be introduced in instalments, but in a more comprehensive form. I also agree with the hon. Member in objecting to the insufficient time that the Government have allowed to elapse between the First Reading and Second Reading. It is supposed to be a simple measure, and on the face of it it seems simple, and you are only dealing with ten Clauses, but the intricacy of the Bill does not lie in the Clauses, but in the Schedules. Simplicity is to be attained by the repeal of many Acts, and no one can appreciate the full effect of the Bill and the Schedules unless he has had ample time to discuss the Acts which remain unrepealed, as well as those which are to be repealed. I have gone to a considerable amount of trouble to obtain a definition of the municipal franchise under Clause 2. It says:—
"Subject to the provisions of this Act, and especially to the provisions and limitations set out in the First Schedule, every person who is an occupier of land or premises in a local government electoral area shall have a vote."
I looked for a definition of what a person really is, and I had to go back to 45 and 46 Victoria, cap. 50. It is contained in an Act to consolidate with amendments the enactments relating to municipal corporations of England and Wales, and it says a person shall not be entitled to be enrolled as a burgess unless he is qualified and is of full age. When I referred to the Schedule on page 11 this very Section of the Act of 1882, which determined the qualification is eliminated and is repealed. I mention that point only to show that more time should have been allowed, unless the President of the Board of Education can tell me where I can find a definition of the "person" entitled to vote. The Secretary of State for the Colonies, in opening the Debate this afternoon, made a very plausible speech, in which he said that this was a very simple and innocuous measure. Just because this Bill appears so simple that it is suspect of suppressing much of the injustice that remains unredressed. The President of the Board of Education, in introducing the Bill, told the House that there were approximately 12,000,000 people in this country of age to have the franchise, and that he believed that under the Bill 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 who have never had the vote before would receive the franchise. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is quite correct in assuming that, because a very large number of people have not qualified as occupiers they have not a vote. They are kept off the register for one reason alone—namely, the long qualifying period necessary to become a voter in this country. As an instance. There was an anomaly brought to my attention yesterday by a resident in Brighton. He transferred from London to Brighton on 24th July last—too late to be qualified in Brighton for last year—and he has to remain disfranchised until the period comes round on 15th July next year. Only two weeks short so this year does not count, and he has to go another year before getting on the roll, and after that period has passed he only becomes qualified by waiting six months longer. In other words, he has to wait two years and five months before he becomes a voter. Electoral authorities say that if this anomaly could be removed by a reduction in the qualifying period, at least 1,000,000 voters would be added to the register.
The whole registration law of this country it a great anachronism, full of inconsistencies and anomalies which urgently require repeal. The right hon. Gentleman will be well advised if he will even at this stage divide the Bill in two, one part dealing with the question of registration, in regard to which he will get the assent of all parties in the House, and so add 1,000,000 voters who are at present kept off the register. We were told by the President of the Board of Education that the principle of this Bill is "Trust the people." No doubt hon. Members opposite on public platforms profess their desire to see that the views of the people shall be heard and that the people shall be trusted. But let us test the professions of the right hon. Gentleman on this point. He begins to trust the people by dividing the electoral system into four categories. He says that the occupier shall be entitled to the Parliamentary franchise and the municipal franchise, that the resident shall only be entitled to the Parliamentary franchise, that the lodger shall only be entitled to the Parliamentary franchise and not the municipal franchise, and that the same shall apply to the owner. I say, with all respect, that if you wish to trust the people, the way to trust them is to have one franchise and one qualification, and not the differentiation which has been suggested under this Bill. Take the case of the lodger, for instance. The lodger who pays a minimum of £10 for the rooms he occupies—that means 4s. a week—is under this Bill to be disqualified for the municipal franchise. Yet the same Bill suggests that another class of people who probably pay only a shilling a week for rooms are to obtain full citizen rights. Assuming lodgers represent intellectual people and they do represent the intellectual middle class, it seems a great injustice that you should wish to exclude this particular class from the municipal franchise, while you include another class of people in the Parliamentary franchise who have no special qualification.
Under the Bill an adult in this country is only to have one vote, though he may be qualified for many votes. How do you propose to deal with people in Ireland? They may have only one qualification, but hon. Members opposite are prepared to give them two votes. They are prepared to give them a vote for the Irish Parliament and a vote for the Imperial Parliament. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] If you are prepared to give two votes for one qualification in Ireland, I wish to know why a voter in this country should not have two votes for one qualification. A lodger in Ireland has the full municipal franchise, the full borough franchise, and the full parochial franchise, and he is now to have a vote for the Irish Parliament and the Imperial Parliament. In this country the only vote a lodger will have will be the Parliamentary franchise and no other. That is an injustice and an anomaly that ought to be removed if there is to be any logic or justice in the Bill at all. Another point I wish to refer to is in connection with the Revision Courts, and more particularly the functions of the town clerks and the county clerks. They are to be responsible in future for the preparation of the register—not only the six months' register, but for the supplementary register as well. That will entail a vast amount of work and a great deal of printing expense. It may happen that in one month there will only be one new voter, and yet the whole of this machinery will be employed for the purpose at considerable expenditure. The same machinery will be employed to announce there are no additional voters. Who is to pay the expenses? The people who are to pay are the ratepayers and that is proposed at a time when ratepayers are groaning under the burdens of local taxation. And here we are asked to further increase the expenditure falling on the local rates.
Another point which seems to me a very serious matter is this: What check is there going to be on the officials? You might have a partisan official who might choose to put less men on the register or who might choose to show a blank sheet. It is a very dangerous system to introduce, particularly in constituencies where the majorities are very narrow. Finally, in connection with the tribunals to be created, at present agents have an opportunity of appearing before the revising barrister to plead their cases. In future, when the case is before the County Court, a lawyer will have to be employed, which will mean additional expenditure. On reading the Bill I find Clause 26 to say that any person may make any objection he likes to a voter coming on the list. It may be quite irresponsible or frivolous. Who is to pay for this objection? Section 32 provides that the registration officer shall be deemed to be a party to any proceedings relating to an objection to an official alteration, and on any appeal from the decision of the County Court he may be named as a respondent. Clause 38 shows how money for these operations has to be provided, and it is provided once more out of the pockets of the ratepayers. This in itself is objectionable. The House is more or less united on this point at least, that what we want to provide at the present moment is to reduce local expenditure instead of increasing it. For these reasons and those I mentioned, I intend to support the Amendment of the hon. Member for Chelmsford. I would make a further appeal to the President of the Board of Education, imperative as it is that these registration anomalies should be removed, to proceed merely with that part of the Bill and leave the whole question of the franchise to be dealt with, as some hon. Members opposite suggest, in connection with redistribution and not press for the passage of this measure in its present unworkable form.
I wish very heartily to support the Second Reading of the Bill. I congratulate the Government on pressing forward the Second Reading at this stage. I have listened to most of the speeches in this Debate, and have been surprised to find that there is not one to get up and say a word in support of the plural voter. For my part, I welcome this Bill because it will abolish the plural voter, and I should welcome it even though it were only confined to that single object. I have long been in favour of one man one vote, and I have no quarrel at all with the contention put forward by one hon. Member on the other side that one vote should have one value. For that reason I welcome the announcement of the Colonial Secretary that the Government intend to deal with the redistribution scheme during the next Session of Parliament. So far as I know, no one has spoken, either in support of or in opposition to this Bill, who has not made some suggestion or indulged in criticism on some point of detail, and I should welcome very much the deletion of the provision that a vote should be given on the ground not only of residence but on the ground of occupation. It seems to me that the Bill would be very much simpler if the occupation qualification were altogether taken out of the measure, and I hope that the Government will simplify the Bill by reserving the vote for the residence qualification. In reference to the proposed period of six months for qualification I think it would be better if the period were reduced to three months. I am perfectly sure that the registration would be simpler if the register were made up twice a year instead of there being a continual process of making it up. I agree with the criticisms that have been urged against the proposals of the Government on the ground of expense. It has been a strong platform of those, on this side of the House at any rate, that we should make it as inexpensive as possible, not only for the ratepayers but for candidates for Parliament, rather than add to the expense, as may be the result if the proposals now embodied in the Bill are carried into effect. If the Government can see its way to consider seriously the suggestion that the register shall be made up periodically—and I suggest that twice a year would be quite enough for all practical purposes—with a three months' qualification, I think it would be a great improvement, particularly on the ground of expense. But whether the Government make these improvements in the Bill or not, I shall very heartily vote for the Second Reading of the Bill.
The last speaker has, I think, spoken more strongly in favour of the Bill than any of the previous ones. I have heard most of the speakers, and I have noticed that among those who say they are going to vote for it, there has not been one who has not indulged in criticisms of the Bill and suggested additions which he would like to see made to it. They do not object to most of the Clauses of the Bill as it stands, but they say that it is very far from perfect, because it does not include other and important points. There is no whole-hearted supporter of this Bill in its present form, as has been made perfectly clear during the whole of this afternoon. I do not know why the unreal feeling which has maintained itself in the House the whole of to-day has prevailed. The only explanation I can give is that no one thinks that the Bill is going to become law, and hon. Members know that when they get rid of this Bill in two or three days after the Second Reading they will not hear of it again until possibly February or March of next year at the very earliest, and I suppose it is not worth a man's while to go into the Bill properly now because he will have forgotten all about it before it is dug out and brought before the House again. I have never assisted in connection with any Bill the Committee stage of which was postponed for six or eight months after the Second Reading. It is a novel experience, but we are accustomed to that at the present time, and when the Government is trying to drive not two coaches through Temple Bar, but three, in the one Session, then we feel that there is a lack of reality about the whole business. Everyone knows perfectly well that as three coaches cannot go through Temple Bar together, so three Bills of the magnitude of those which are now before the House cannot possibly go through in the one Session. The portion of the Bill in reference to plural voting is that which finds the greatest favour among hon. Members on the other side. I do not think in fact that any of them would disagree with the proposal made with regard to that, except that one or two of them say they wish the Bill was confined to the plural voting only. I was in the House while we discussed the last Plural Voting Bill, and took some part in the discussion on it. It was thrown out afterwards by the House of Lords, but it left this House in such a condition that it could not possibly be worked in any shape or form.
9.0 P.M.
I remember the extraordinary condition the register was to be in. There was to be a register with stars against the names of different people, and this register was to be collocated against other registers in the country, and the voter had to elect in which he would be registered for voting purposes; and I believe in the end the Bill was left in such a condition that no returning officer could ever have worked it, nor would the voters have had an idea where they were able to vote or where they were not able to vote, and discrepancies would have occurred in the register. Under this Bill, also, persons will have to elect the place in which they will be registered because, although you make residence the qualification, a good many people have residences in two places. A good many reside for half the year in one place and for half the year in another, and, in electing on which register they will be placed, they will consider that in one place their party is in a large majority, while in another it is in a small minority. The voter will elect the place in which he is to be registered; you may have all the trouble of gerrymandering, and immense expense may be occasioned. Directly the voter elects where he will appear on the register all this trouble will take place, and you cannot get rid of it so long as you have different places of residence or different properties in different places belonging to one voter. You are not going to get rid of that difficulty under this Bill. We are asked if we support plural votes. I do. I have three votes, one in the City of London, and one in the south, and really I do not know which would be the best place for me to vote in. No one can readily say where one's interest is larger—whether one's country house or one's factory. One may have an interest in the town, and another 20 miles away in the county where one resides. We have to consider whether our greatest interest is in the town or in the country, 20 miles away, where one resides. Why should not a man be allowed to vote in the town where his capital is invested, where all his interests lie, and where his workmen are? I think the voter should be able to elect to be on the register where his interests are, but you say that he ought to vote where he resides. I hold that a man ought to have two votes, and it would do no possible harm to anyone in this country if he had. If this Bill is passed, three and a-half millions of additional voters will be put on the register, and it becomes a question of lowering the franchise from a scale which includes a more or less educated body, who take part in the Government of the country at the present time. No doubt the better class of labourers are on the register at the present time. It is only those who do not take an interest in public life, who are what are called "rolling stones," who do not get on the register; yet it is they who will become eligible to be put on the register, and whether they will prove as good citizens as those who have received a better education, and who are plural voters, is a matter for discussion later on, and it ought to be discussed. Decisions of the highest public importance to this country will be in the hands of a less educated body than that which now exists. That is not a small matter, and it is one which we ought not to hesitate to thoroughly discuss. There are men like ourselves who ought to have votes; I do not say they ought not, for a moment, but I say at the present time you are handing over questions of the utmost importance, which are now in the hands of educated people who have acquired interests in different places, to a less educated body, and I, for one, shall regret it. I believe the country may afterwards regret it, too.
I should like to see sailors and fishermen enabled to exercise the vote, a duty which, by reason of their calling, they are frequently prevented from doing. It often affects Members on both sides of the House, whether the fishing fleet may happen to be at sea or at home; but the exercise of the vote should not depend upon whether it is the mackerel season, or some other season, when some 200 or 300, or 500 electors happen to be away prosecuting their calling. They are on the register as electors, like other voters, and they have a stake in the country, like anybody else, yet they frequently are deprived of the opportunity of expressing by their vote their political sentiments. I think the Government, in making this change and in putting an enormous class, what I may describe as the most shiftless class, on the register, should turn their attention to providing some "way by which fishermen and sailors may be able to record their votes. It does not affect my Constituency, because the herring fishing of Great Yarmouth is conducted off the coast, and in the autumn the fishermen are in one day and out the next. Those people in my Constituency can come in when they like, as they fish just off the coast. I believe it is true that in many cases fishermen leave on their voyage after the candidates have been nominated. There should be some means or other of depositing a vote with the returning officer, sealed up, and which could be opened on the polling day. If that were done, the difficulty could be met, and many of those men would get the right of citizens for the first time. It may be said that what is proposed in this Bill as to the lists is done in France and Germany. That is so, but it is very simple in those countries, because every man has got his papers, with his name and age and other particulars. If that system prevailed in England it would be the simplest possible matter to produce that paper and be placed on a register. In England we are so secretive that we do not like anybody else to know anything about our affairs, and it is therefore much more difficult to prepare a register than in those countries. In foreign places twenty-four hours after arrival I have had to give particulars to the police as to how long I intended to stop and a full description as to other matters.
Under circumstances like that it is easy enough to prepare a register. [An HON. MEMBER: "We do not want that here."] We want an accurate register, and you want us to get it at the expense of the local authorities, and in a way which will be very difficult, if not almost impossible. There would be a great number of errors and the system would entail great expense on the ratepayers. You are going to have three registers, which makes the matter almost an absurdity. There is, then, the question of the women—a subject which cannot be kept out of the speeches. Did hon. Members read in Saturday's newspapers the speeches of the French Prime Minister and some of the other Ministers? In those speeches which dealt very sympathetically with the facts, it was pointed out that the deputies did not represent the electors in the town or the electors in the country, but the inhabitants of the town and of the departments. At present in England about 17 per cent. have votes, and this Bill would probably add another 7 per cent., so that we would get 25 per cent. of the inhabitants on the register. Place the figure at 50 per cent., and in addition you have the minority under twenty-one. By adding the women you would be putting on an immense body of opinion, but as to what it would be you would be absolutely in the dark. There is no possible way of showing whether they would vote Conservative or Liberal, Nationalist or Labour. They would be a vast unknown force. It would be a great risk, but still they represent half the people in the towns we represent, and whether they should not have their say is a very open question, and I am prepared to consider it in a most liberal way, and I hope we shall have the opportunity when this Bill goes into Committee to discuss it. There is the question, however, whether we want any change at all at present until we can do the thing thoroughly. The Government are now bringing on this Bill for Second Reading in the dog days, and is it not a question whether it would not have been better for them to postpone it until they could bring in a proper, full, and exhaustive Bill at the proper time, and make it the principal Bill of a Session, and then it would have a chance of becoming law. As it is I think it is impossible, and I shall register my vote against the Second Reading.
One has listened with extreme interest to the speeches that have been made from the Opposition Benches during the last hour, particularly in view of the fact that the Leader of the Opposition asked that they should have at least two and a half days to discuss this very important measure. There have been four Members of the Opposition present, including one of their Whips; and when the hon. Member who has just spoken sat down the then possible scheme of speeches was exhausted.
Not at all. I dispute that.
I quite recognise that whilst the last hon. Gentleman was on his feet special precautions were taken to secure that certain other Members should be present before he finished, in order that this artificial discussion should be continued for the two and a half days which were demanded by the Leader of the Opposition. I felt very much inclined to move ''That the Question be now put," instead of making a speech at all. What one would like to say about the speeches that have been made is that apparently hon. Gentlemen opposite do not recognise the basis upon which we on this side found a Franchise Bill. The hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) has been perfectly frank in stating that those whom we shall enfranchise are the shiftless population of the country. [An HON. MEMBER: "Shifting."] Shifting and shiftless, and usually the shifting have plenty of money to shift with, to the advantage of the party opposite. The hon. Member pressed the point that the lower you go in the social scale you will find a more uneducated class. That was practically put in the First Reading Debate, when the hon. Member for Glasgow University (Sir H. Craik) sneered at the people to whom a vote would be given by this Bill, and pointed out how much better it would be if university representation were retained and votes given to the men who passed through the universities. One knows the conditions in which the hon. Gentleman was talking. In Scotland, in particular, the average man who goes through the university in any of the Scottish seats is sent there at great personal sacrifice by the other members of his family, and those other members of the family are the lads engaged in the great industries in the industrial towns of Scotland. Surely the men who make the sacrifice for the one member of the Scottish family to go through the university, and who are really matriculating at the great university of industry, are as much entitled to the vote as the man who is going through the university by virtue of their exertions. If for no other reason, one would be in favour of the abolition of university seats because of the kind of speech made in this House by Members who represent the universities. If that is the kind of intolerance of attitude towards the men who ought to be enfranchised, the sooner we get rid of university seats the better. We on this side base our claim to the franchise not upon property, as so many Members opposite seem to think it ought to be, but on the fact that a man is a man. I put it at that, and no higher.
That is very low.
You cannot put it higher.
We have been told "that a man is a man for a' that," and that is sufficiently democratic and broad for the people in Scotland to base their claim upon. I do not know upon what level the hon. Member puts the constituents who elect him. They are much wealthier than the majority of constituents in the country, so that perhaps he thinks that wealth ought to carry a vote. Let us have a candid proposal from the other side that men shall have votes according to their income, or according to their stake in the country.
Hear, hear.
Now we know exactly where we are. It is a contest between property and the rights of humanity. I prefer to stand on the rights of humanity. If persons are compelled to obey the laws of the country there is substantial reason why they should have a voice in the making of those laws. If you call upon us to protect the shores of this country there is another substantial reason why we should have a vote in any provision that is made for that kind of defence. The real crux of the question, therefore, is whether one is entitled to a vote from the point of view of property or from the point of view of humanity. As I say, I prefer to put my claim on the ground that a man is a man. Apart from that, one general criticism might be made with regard to this particular Franchise Bill, namely, that it is unnecessarily complicated by dealing with the extension of the franchise and a revision of the machinery of franchise at one and the same time. I am very sorry that we are going to have, as we obviously are, considerable heated Debates as to whether the franchise should be extended to men or women or both, and that probably the discussion of topics of that kind will materially injure the discussion of such topics as deal with better registration and the perfecting of the machine so that those who have votes at present may have the pleasure of recording them. I am one of those who believe that however you widen the franchise and however many more people you bring in, you will not have very much difference in the political complexion of the various parties in the country. Those who are outside the franchise now will certainly largely increase the number of voters, but you will not make a very great difference in the relative strength of the parties in the State. Therefore I do not think it is so important that the franchise should be extended as it is that the machinery should be perfected so that those who have the vote now may be put into such a position that they can record that vote.
At the same time I have no personal difficulty as to the way I should vote on this measure. I believe in adult suffrage for men and women. I think that all ought to be included within the four corners of this Bill, and personally I shall vote against the Third Reading of the Bill if the vote is extended to men without being extended to women. One other question I think ought certainly to be included in this Bill. I am reluctant to make this point, because it may be misunderstood. I hope the House will agree that in putting the point one is not pleading personally or for a group of people who may find themselves in this position. I refer to the question whether or not the Government ought to tackle in this Bill the question of the payment of returning officers' expenses. We have heard a lot said in criticism about Members accepting a salary in this House. I agree with the policy which provides salaries for Members of Parliament, and with the reason for which it was made possible—that we ought as far as we can to widen the choice of candidates for election in order that all sections of opinion might be properly represented in this House. Those of us who have gone through contested elections know that the one expense in those elections to which we object more than another is that incurred by the returning officers. I have in mind a case in which, if you examine the details of the returning officers' bills, you will find that certain people are coining money out of the candidates who stand for election. I remember that some months ago when I came into this House I was charged for the erection of booths in that particular constituency a sum which would have bought the booths over and over again. These same booths have been used twelve months previously by the same Members, and also have been used by school board and municipal elections in the interval. And these kind of expenses, forsooth, are charged against the candidate at a time when, owing to other circumstances, it is not possible to look very closely into these expenses. If this Bill goes through as it is, assuming even that women are not included, and the franchise extended, as it will be extended, it means that every one of us will have our electorate considerably enlarged. That means that our personal expenses at the time of election will be very largely increased. There will be increased postages and printing, and increased rent of halls. That one does not object to, because that is a personal and necessary expense in putting your programme before the electors.
But there will be increased expenses in providing extra booths, extra printing, and all the other paraphernalia, and I do say that the time surely has arrived when these should be charged on the proper authorities and not upon the candidate. I want to make this point: I hope the Government will note the significance of it; that if you have, as you have, given a salary to Members of Parliament to widen the choice of the democracy in the candidates whom they may choose, you are going to take away with the left hand what you have given with the right, for you are going largely to increase the returning officers' expenses in the constituencies. Those of us who have been through the turmoil of contested elections and who know the organisation of these matters beforehand, know how extremely difficult it is to get any but a certain type of man chosen to represent a Division. Surely it is the proper thing that people should have as wide a choice as possible? Now that you have made that possible—it is not nearly so possible as it might be even yet—with the operation of the payment of Members for a number of years—if you make it less possible by largely increasing the returning officer's expenses at the elections, you are going to again create the same difficulty. I therefore hope the Government will consider this question, either in connection with this Bill—preferably so—in order that the difficulty may be taken away. Other questions that have been raised are Committee points, which I do not at the present wish to elaborate, especially as I note a great many Members of the other side have come in willing to make speeches in order to keep up the farce that they require two and a-half days to discuss this Bill, when for the last hour and a-half they have left this House, with you, Sir, in the Chair, and some half dozen of us as listeners.
That there have not been many Members in the House during the last hour and a-half has made the hon. Gentleman opposite to draw the conclusion that there is no need to discuss this Bill. I do not agree with the hon. Member in that conclusion. First of all, I think it is necessary, in order to satisfy the requirements of nature, that at some time or other hon. Members of this House should dine.
Is dinner more important than the Franchise?
Certainly not, but if we have a proper time for the discussion of a Franchise Bill then we can also have a proper time to preserve our health by taking that simple refreshment which we all require. This violent endeavour to rush things through the House when fatigued nature is unable to understand what is going on is so dear to hon. Members opposite. We on this side of the House, at any rate, are determined to stop if it is in our power so to do. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has made some very extraordinary statements. He is opposed to university representation on the ground of the speeches which are made in this House by university Members. He described those speeches as intolerant. My right hon. Friend below me (Sir Robert Finlay) is a distinguished university Member, and he will, I believe, before the Debate closes make a speech. We shall then have the opportunity of knowing whether or not the speech my right hon. Friend is going to make is more intolerant, more sensible, or more àpropos the question before the House than the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just addressed us. If the House is going to decide whether or not the representation of a particular locality shall be maintained by the speeches of the Members who happen for the moment to represent it, I venture to say that in their inmost hearts every single Member in the House would prefer to retain my right hon. Friend than the hon. Gentleman opposite. The hon. Gentleman quoted from Burns, and I apologise for not being so well acquainted with Scottish poetry as I ought to be. I think he quoted "A man's a man for a' that."
Of course, no one disputes that. What I dispute is that all men are equal. The hon. Gentleman is not equal to other hon. Members on the opposite side, else why is, he not sitting on the Front Bench? That disproves the statement that all men are equal, and that they have different acquirements and different abilities, a fact which none are more apt to appreciate than the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister. The hon. Gentleman talked about shifting populations. He said that shifting populations have plenty of money to shift with. That is not my experience. I had the honour of representing Peck-ham 13½ years in this House. We had a great number of shifting people in Peck-ham. That was one of the great difficulties we had to contend against at registration time. These people shifted either because they could not pay their rent or because they could not pay their tradesmen. They shifted in the night. That is what is called moonlight flitting. They did not shift because they had plenty of money to shift, but because it was advisable for one reason or another. The speech of the hon. Gentleman was a typical speech from the Radical party on an occasion like the present. The hon. Gentleman would like to have his election expenses paid.
Not my election expenses.
I apologise for the slip: the returning officer's expenses. He is not content with his salary. He wants something more. That was one of the reasons I objected to a salary being paid, because I was perfectly certain when it was given that it would not be sufficient. It would not be a living wage, and other things would be required, and this is another proof that I was right in my prophesy. The speech of the hon. Gentleman is typical of the speeches delivered in support of this Bill by hon. Members opposite. I had the opportunity of listening to the speech of the hon. Baronet, the Member for the Wellington Division of Shropshire (Sir Charles Henry). He said he was going to vote for the Second Reading. So far as I can make out, the only thing he supports is the abolition of plural voting. He wants the occupier done away with, and no motor cars. Why should he be done away with? He has got a stake in the country, and therefore will probably vote Conservative. That being so, the hon. Member wants to do away with him. In the same way motor cars, generally belong to people who have got some stake in the country and, very wrongly no doubt, and very foolishly, these peope who have got something to lose do not support hon. Gentlemen opposite, but do support hon. Gentlemen from this side of the House, and therefore the hon. Baronet wants to do away with them. In fact, the speeches, so far as I heard them, of hon. Members opposite have tended to show that the real object of this Bill is to disfranchise people who are Conservatives and to enfranchise people who are followers only of the Radicals. The hon. Baronet also says that plural voting cannot be justified. I do not know where he got that statement from; he did not attempt in any kind of way to prove it, and I will endeavour to prove he was wrong. After all, what is plural voting? Plural voting gives a man who has rates and taxes to pay the right to say whether those taxes shall be paid or not. It is the continuation of the old Radical principle that representation and taxation should go together. It is not a doctrine which the Unionist party have started in the last few years to benefit themselves. It is a principle which has been continued during the last 200 years. I draw the attention of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken to that fact.
What about the women?
One thing at a time; I will come to the women in a moment. At present I am dealing with the men, and I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Gentleman to this fact. Somewhere about 200 years ago the English Parliament endeavoured to force the American Colonies to pay certain duties—I think they were duties upon tea. The American Colonies of that time refused to pay these duties, and they threw the tea into the sea at Boston harbour, and the great revolution which parted America from this country ensued. What was the justification of the Americans for doing what they did? They said they had no voice in the fixing of taxation by this House, and therefore they were not obliged to pay it. That is the contention of hon. Members on this side for the existence of the plural vote.
Then what about the women?
The hon. Gentleman keeps on talking about women. I do not see what that has to do with it.
The hon. Baronet argues that representation should go with taxation. He makes that the basis of his contention. Obviously, therefore, women ought to have the vote on the same principle.
May I point out to the hon. Gentleman that all through the ages up to the present time women have never had a vote or voice in the Government of the country, and never in any country until in the last twenty years have women had a vote. I am concerned for the moment in dealing with things as they are. If the hon. Member means by his interruption that should an Amendment be introduced to confine the suffrage to women who pay rates and have other property qualification I am not at all sure that I should not agree with him, but from his speech I do not think we shall find him of that opinion. I was pointing out that the American Colonies separated from this country on the ground that we were trying to compel them to pay taxes when they had no voice in the provision of those taxes. It is for that reason that hon. Members upon this side of the House have always and will always continue to support plural voting. Let us look at the condition of the country at the present time. As matters stand something like 7,000,000 of people return Members of Parliament to this House. I believe I am right in saying that out of these 7,000,000 only 1,000,000 pay Income Tax, Death Duties, Inhabited House Duties, etc., and I think I am right in saying that these taxes amount to about 55 per cent. of the whole taxation levied at the present moment.
Fifty-two per cent.
It was 52 per cent. I think the hon. Member has forgotten that there have been several increases since 1909 in direct taxation, and I should say that the proportion now is about 55 per cent. If the hon. Gentleman makes the proportion 52 per cent. of direct taxation and 47 per cent. indirect taxation I have no objection. My argument is that the major portion of the taxation is paid by this 1,000,000 of people and in addition to that this 1,000,000 of people pay also a great portion of the indirect taxation. What is their power of voting, and what would be their power of voting if this Bill became law? The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education informed us 3,000,000 people would be added to the list of voters if this Bill passed. There are now 7,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman took off the plural voters and said 3,000,000 would be added. That makes 10,000,000. As a matter of fact it will make nearer 11,000,000, because, unless I am mistaken, the right hon. Gentleman said the present number was nearly 8,000,000. The result is that 10,000,000 or thereabout will call the tune, and 1,000,000 will pay the piper. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no."] I say yes, and I challenge the hon. Gentlemen who say "No" to get up and prove that my contention is wrong. I venture to say that the great majority of the taxation will be paid by 1,000,000, and that of the 10,000,000 many of them will pay nothing at all, if they do not smoke or drink. [An HON. MEMBER: "They drink tea."] That is but an infinitesimal amount. I say that any country governed upon that principle is bound to come to a disastrous end. An hon. Gentleman who is no longer a Member of this House (Mr. Bottomley) was always great upon the advantage of a business Government. Let us deal with the business Government for a moment, and see what business people do to protect their interests Take a joint stock company. The directors, who are in the position of hon. Members and right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench, are not elected by one man one vote, and one shareholder one vote does not elect a director. In a great number of cases a man with 100 shares has 100 votes, and a man with 1,000 shares has 1,000 votes. Sometimes a man with £1,000 stock has ten votes, and a man with £100 stock one vote. I know the number is limited, and if you get up to £50,000 worth of stock you do not have any more votes than if you had £30,000 or £40,000. But that is not always so, and there is a larger proportion of votes given to those who have more capital than to those who only invest a small amount. The result is that the ordinary joint stock companies of this country are fairly well managed. Anyone with any experience of business knows that if you only gave votes to the small shareholders you could not carry on business properly, and yet here in a much greater undertaking, that of the British Empire, you are going to say that the man who has worked all his life and has shown that he has a superior brain to the ordinary man, and who by frugality and industry has obtained a stake in the country, he is to have no more power that the boy of twenty-two or twenty-three years of age without experience, and who is generally the sort of young man who thinks the chief object in life is to get what he can for the moment, and he leaves the future to look after itself. As an illustration of that I would call the attention of the House to a question which was put last Wednesday by a judge in the Central Criminal Court to a man who was had up for pushing another man into the water. This man was asked by the judge why he was on strike, and the man replied—
"I do not know, my Lord, why I am on strike. I do not want to be on strike, and I should like to go back to my work."
That man who does not know why he is on strike and would like to go back to his work is to be given the same power as one of my Constituents in the City of London who has shown by years of industry managing a great business, that he is capable of exercising and bringing to bear some knowledge as to whom he should vote for to represent him in Parliament. The whole thing is absolutely absurd, and I challenge any hon. Member opposite to show me any country in the history of the world which has ever been successful where it has been governed by a pure and unadulterated democracy. Every single country from Greece downwards where the democracy has had the controlling power, as it would have under this Bill, has been ruined by that democracy. It stands to reason that it is so. It is all very well to talk about the intelligence of this or that man. I am not casting any blame upon the vast majority of the people of this country, but we know that the time of the workers is occupied in earning their living and attending to their particular wants, and therefore it is not within their power to give that thought and consideration to the complex issues which really should control and govern the return of Members to this House. It is not in their power to give the attention which is necessary in the selection of their representatives, if this country is to be successfully governed, and they fall an easy prey to demagogues who have existed for 2,000 years from the time of Cleon in Athens to the present day. These people have appealed to the baser passions of the people who are not sufficiently alert and far-reaching in their knowledge to see the effects that will be brought upon them by the prejudices of the moment.
You appeal to working-class folk.
I do not quite understand the hon. Member's interruption.
The hon. Baronet has argued that because people work for their living they cannot take an interest in election affairs and vote properly. If that is so why do hon. Members opposite ask for their votes.
The hon. Member opposite has misunderstood me. In the first place I am not dealing with the present electorate, but with the extension of the electorate by 3,000,000, and that is the point before the House. Whether it would be advisable to disfranchise them is another question with which I was not dealing, although I should be perfectly willing to deal with that point on another occasion. I am now dealing with the extension of the franchise. I am not aware that any hon. Member of this House has yet appealed to the 3,000,000 voters who would be put upon the register should this Bill become law. With regard to the people who are working, I do not draw any distinction between a banker who works in his office and a bricklayer who works on the scaffold, because they both work. The hon. Member opposite thinks nobody works unless he works with his hands, but I do not agree with him. A man working with his hands and whose work is tiring, and who has his sole attention upon that work, is not so qualified to give a considered judgment as a man who has had experience in regard to other affairs of the nation. That has been the experience of the world for the last 2,000 years. There is another very curious anomaly in the Bill, and it is that plural voting is to be allowed to return an alderman, a mayor, or a county councillor, although he is not to be allowed to return a Member of Parliament. That has been explained by the right hon. Gentleman opposite on the ground that in that case you are not voting for the same body, and a more extraordinary explanation was never given. After all, local affairs are small in comparison with the affairs of Parliament, and what does it matter whether you return 670 people to sit in one place or seventy or eighty to serve in different places. The point is what are they returned for, and what will be the result of their labours when they are sent to this place or to another place to carry out the mandates of the electors.
When you are returning Members to this House to deal with great Imperial questions, to get up and say that a man who has property is not to have a vote for Parliament, although he may have a vote for Mr. Common Councillor Jones, is simply playing with the country and with the House of Commons. The real fact is that no one in this House or in the country takes this Bill seriously. If it were taken seriously, there would not be a mere handful of hon. Members opposite present or on this side of the House. We do not think that this is serious, but we believe that this Bill is brought forward in order to satisfy some remnant of the party opposite, and when it cannot be carried the Plural Voting Bill, which will give a little more security to the shaky seats of hon. Members opposite, will be brought forward. That is the reason why the House is now in its present state. I must say I rather regret that the country is not alive to what they are doing. I look upon this Bill as being far and away more fatal than Home Rule or Welsh Disestablishment, or any of the mischievous, measures which the Government have chosen to provide for our amusement in this year of 1912. If this is carried, the effect will be to destroy the character of the representatives of this House, and to place the government of the country in the hands of those who are least fitted to govern. An illustration occurs to me at the present time. Who would say that the porters at a bank should have equal power of electing the directors with the share- holders? Yet that is what right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are endeavouring to do. There are a good many hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House who are well equipped with this world's goods. They are not here; but I wonder what the hon. Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) and the hon. Member for one of the Divisions of Derbyshire think about this Bill. Are they foolish enough to think that the experience of past years will not be repeated, and that when the power is in the hands of those who have not, they will not like to put their hands in the pockets of those who have? We all know that is so. I venture to think hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite who have a little stake in the country will do well to consider whether they had better break with their party on this question as they will, sooner or later, have to break with it on others. I am, perhaps, rather old-fashioned in my opinions on this question, but I venture to say they are sensible opinions, and they are opinions which will be endorsed by every practical business man either in England, Wales, Scotland, or Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] Well, not by a man who wishes to obtain a few votes or to place himself in a hurry on that Front Bench; but by any man who is seriously desirous of seeing his country remain what it once was, the greatest country in the world. If this sort of thing goes on, instead of being the greatest country in the world, it will gradually decline into the position of a Spain or a Portugal.
10.0 P.M.
During the course of this Debate attention has been repeatedly called to the emptiness of the benches in this House, particularly on the Government side. It has been usual when proposals have been brought forward for a vital change in our representative system that people should be at the back of it and that there should be a strong demand for it. We have had the great part of the people represented by nearly a dozen Members throughout the course of this Debate sitting behind the Government both above or below the Gangway. I think the country will take note of the real character of this Bill by the light of that fact. The President of the Board of Education, in introducing this measure, said a great deal about the anomalies of our present system of voting. If there are any anomalies which do any harm, by all means let them be set right, but all this talk about the anomalies of our present system is merely intended to cover, not a measure for setting these anomalies right, but a measure for a complete electoral revolution. If there are any points in our present system which require to be redressed, by all means let the Government bring forward a measure for that purpose. This is not a measure for that purpose. It is a measure, under cover of a great deal of talk about anomalies, for the purpose of putting our representative system upon a totally new footing. The Colonial Secretary endeavoured to extenuate the extent of the change which would be made. He said the change would be a slight one and that the effect of the proposals for the enfranchisement of those who did not enjoy the vote would apply only to sons who now lived with their parents and to domestic servants who do not occupy houses separate from those of their masters. That is a complete mistake. The proposal is to add three million voters to the register. Will hon. Gentlemen say these three million voters quoted by the President of the Board of Education are made up of sons living with their parents and of servants who are living in their masters' houses? It is a complete delusion. They are made up of persons who reside in the locality but who have not reached the very modest qualification which the law at present requires, and that is that they should reside in a house of their own.
No.
Indeed, that is so. The law at present enjoins a household franchise.
There is the lodger.
There are other franchises as well. I am at present on the household franchise. The lodger franchise is restricted to those who occupy lodgings of the annual value of £10. The household franchise is not so restricted. The only requirement is that a man should reside in a house of his own, and to the term "house" an extension has been given which certainly leaves no room for complaint on the part of the most ardent supporter of a wide electoral basis because the word "house" includes any portion of a house, though not structurally separate, which is separately occupied. You propose to remove that security for stability altogether and to say, though a man has no house of his own at all, if he has resided anywhere or anyhow in a constituency for six months he is to get a vote. Do you propose to apply that to the case of tramps? A tramp may reside for six months in a constituency. Do you propose that he should become qualified by moving about and stopping at different points in a constituency? I do not suppose you intend that, although you use dangerously wide terms. What I am desirous of impressing upon the House is that under cover of all this talk about anomalies a revolution is being attempted by the Government. Then we have at present the occupation franchise in respect of premises of the value of £10 a year. That limit the Government propose to remove altogether, and the Bill as it stands provides that the occupation of any premises of any value whatever apart from residence cannot confer the franchise. Do the Government mean that? There is some doubt, judging from what fell from the Colonial Secretary. He said it had been pointed out to the Government by some learned friend that this would open the way to the creation of all sorts of faggot votes, and whether the occupation franchise should be retained in the Bill or not was rather an open question. I rather understood that the occupation franchise is going to be dropped altogether. If it is what becomes of such constituencies as the City of London? You annihilate that altogether. You will put it simply in the hands of caretakers who reside in the City. That will be the result of dropping the occupation franchise.
The voter will still have his vote.
If the occupation franchise is dropped then if the voter resides elsewhere than in the City he will have no vote in the City. At present he has that vote. You propose to destroy it. The truth is, we are face to face with a proposal for a revolution in the matter of the franchise. All previous revolutions in our franchise has been in response to strong popular demands. There never has been a case where you have had a great change in the basis of our electoral franchise without there being a strong popular demand which has led to it. The strong popular demand on this occasion may be measured by the meagre attendance of hon. Members on the benches opposite while this great measure is under consideration. The Reform Bill of 1832 was the result of a profound and intense agitation in the country. The Reform Bill of 1867, which conferred the household franchise in the boroughs, was the result of a strong demand on the part of the working classes to have their legitimate voice in Parliament. The extension of the franchise in the counties in 1884 was the result of an agitation on the part of the householders in the counties who felt that they ought to be on a par with their brethren in the boroughs in the matter of representation. These measures were all passed because they were demanded insistently, and because it was felt it would be dangerous and out of keeping with the progress of our institutions if the demand were refused. But here there is no demand whatever. The President of the Board of Education did not allege that there was any demand on the part of the people for this claim, either on the part of the present electors or on the part of those who would be admitted, to the number of 3,000,000, to the franchise under this Bill.
The only demand for this Bill is from the party wirepullers of hon. Gentlemen opposite. This is the first time in the history of this country that a great measure of this kind, effecting a vital change, has been brought forward without any demand upon the part of the people, and solely in response to those who control the fortunes of the party which happens now to be in power, for the purpose of advancing, as they think, the chances of that party at the poll. They desire to add 3,000,000 of voters to the register for that purpose only. But more than that, on every previous occasion, the demand for the addition of a great body of electors to the electorate has been based on the allegation that they were fitted for the exercise of that privilege. In England it has never been supposed that the vote is a matter of absolute right on the part of any person inhabiting this country. No such principle has ever been admitted in this country, and whenever any great measure of Parliamentary reform has been passed on former occasions it has been based on the allegation, in the first place, that there was a strong popular demand for it, and, secondly, that the addition of the electors the Bill proposed to add to the register would add a valuable element to the constituencies. That was so with regard to the proposal to which I have already referred for giving the working men of this country their due place in shaping the destinies of the country which owes so much to them. Is there anything of the kind on the present occasion? Has the Government even attempted to define the class on which they propose to confer the vote by this measure? They have not attempted to argue any special fitness, because they do not know who these proposed new voters are. We have had no argument presented to the House on the ground that those who would be enfranchised would be electors whose assistance would be valuable in deciding what the constitution of this House should be.
Why is it that this measure has been brought before the House? The hon. Member for Lincoln earlier in the evening referred to the venerable taunt against the Conservative party that their principle was distrust of the people tempered by fear. I think it is a pity the hon. Member did not recall the other branch of that gibe, that the principle of the Liberal party was trust in the people tempered by prudence. I congratulate hon. Gentlemen opposite on the predominence of prudence in their present attitude towards the people. There is plenty of prudence, but very little trust. They are avoiding by every means in their power taking the opinion of the people on themselves or their proceedings; they are only too sensible, by the course of the by-elections, that the present electors are losing confidence in them. What the party wirepullers desire is that there shall be added to the register some 3,000,000 of voters who possibly would be more favourable to the Government than they know the present electors to be. They want this addition on the chance that the new voters may be captivated by some of the schemes which proceed in rapid succession from the fertile brain of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They think it may take the new voters some few years to find out the present Government as the present electors have found them out. That is not my only objection to this Bill. It not merely adds 3,000,000 to the electorate without any adequate reason being shown, but it proposes to disfranchise some 500,000 persons in respect of the second vote—the plural vote which they at present enjoy. I venture to affirm, on any sane theory of representation, that the proposal to do away with plural voting is a complete mistake. The House of Commons ought to be as representative as possible of the constituencies. You have a man who has business premises in the City, but resides elsewhere. He forms an important part of the life in both those constituencies. His business interests are in the City; his home interests are where he resides. His presence would be missed at any meeting on any public subject held in either of those constituencies; the meetings would be less representative if he were not present. In the name of common sense why should you take away from him the vote which he enjoys in each of those constituencies when he is a representative element in each of them, and when without him the result reached is less representative of the constituency?
Why should you level down to those voters who happen to be interested only in one constituency? What sense is there in saying that because there is a number of voters who have interests in only one constituency, therefore those voters who have interests in more than one should only be allowed to vote in one constituency? Surely there is no reason in that. It is merely proceeding on the principle that, because one man has only got one vote because he has only one set of interests, therefore no man is to have more than one vote although he has more than one set of interests. There is no justice in that, and there is no reason in it. On the contrary, I submit that it would be a great injustice to deprive men in such circumstances of the second vote which they at present enjoy. Stringent measures have been taken in our legislation for the purpose of exterminating faggot voting. If those measures have not been completely successful, by all means let them be further prosecuted, and let any remains of the evil be completely uprooted. That is a different thing altogether from basing your proposal for the abolition in all cases of plural voting on no principle which is not obviously unjust. The partisan nature of the Bill in this proposal is even more clear than it is with reference to the proposal to add three millions to the electorate. You want to disfranchise these voters, not because there is any adequate reason for it, but because, as you believe, they vote against the present Government. That is the reason, and the only reason, why you want to get rid of the plural voter. If, in your opinion, the plural voter supported the present Government you would be most sensible of the weight of the arguments for giving a voice in the elections to every man who has interests in several constituencies, and giving him a vote in each of those constituencies. May I quote to the House a few words written by a very distinguished man, Mr. Lecky, for many years a Member of this House, upon this subject in his great work upon "Democracy and Liberty." Speaking of plural voting, Mr. Lecky said:—
Two Members.
Be it so. You are not proposing to reduce the representation to one, but to abolish them altogether. Compare with that the constituency of Galway. That has a number of electors not very much over 2,000–2,360 or thereabouts. Galway returns a supporter of the Government. There is no urgency about the case of Galway, but there is great urgency about the case of Dublin University. London University has a constituency of over 6,000 electors. The Flint Burghs have a constituency of not very much over 4,000 electors. But London University is to be disfranchised. You do not propose to meddle with the Flint Burghs, which returns a supporter of the present Government. Oxford University has a constituency of close upon 7,000 electors and Pontefract has a constituency of well under 3,000 electors. Oxford University is to be disfranchised. Pontefract you leave intact, and it is to be dealt with in a future which is rather dim and very distant as far as your plan of redistribution is concerned. Cambridge University has over 7,000 electors. Compare that with Carnarvon Burghs, which, I believe, enjoy the distinction of returning the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and which have under 6,000 electors. Cambridge University is to be abolished, but the Government are not so rash as to propose to lay a hand upon Carnarvon Burghs. May I now pass to my own country? Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities have a constituency of rather over 12,000 electors. It is put down in Dod as 9,800 odd, but the true figures, as shown in the White Paper, are over 12,000. Compare with that Dumfries Burghs, 4,294, and Inverness Burghs, 4,719. Both these constituencies, it is true, return supporters of the Government, but what can we think of the plea that the university constituencies are so small that they ought to be abolished when you leave constituencies a very great deal smaller untouched?
The hon. and learned Gentleman seems to forget that the university voters all have votes elsewhere. We propose to retain them.
We have not necessarily all votes elsewhere, and that does not affect the question at all. I pass to the Constituency I have the honour to represent—the Universities of Edinburgh and St. Andrews. That Constituency has between 11,000 and 12,000 electors. Compare that with two constituencies not very far from the two universities. In the constituency of Selkirk and Peebles there are 4,106 electors, according to Dod, and in the constituency of Perth there are 5,514. It is perfectly true that these two comparatively small constituencies return supporters of the Government, but is that a sufficient reason to bring forward a proposal to disfranchise the universities' constituency and to advance as your excuse that the universities' constituency is not large enough to be represented in this House? I leave such an excuse to the judgment of Members of the House who heard what the President of the Board of Education said on the matter. The truth is that no case whatever has been made out for the abolition of the university constituencies. The representatives of the universities represent in this House the special interests of education and the special interests of the graduates of the universities with which they are connected. I may say in passing that never have the graduates had more need of special representation than in the course of the Debate in which we had to endeavour to defend them from the unjust treatment to which the medical graduates were exposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Not merely do the university representatives represent the special interests of their constituents and of those seats of learning, but they are also the representatives of the political views of the graduates who are electors in these universities. May I ask why it is that the Government in the Home Rule Bill have retained university representation in constituting the Parliament in Ireland? Is it not because they are sensible of the weight of the considerations to which I have been adverting? They have given away the whole case against university representation by proposing that in the Irish Parliament Dublin University should retain its representation.
The graduates of the Scottish Universities form a thoroughly democratic constituency. They represent every class in the community, and more particularly that great mass of the population in Scotland, the very backbone in the country, to whom the Universities in Scotland have always been open; men who are distinguished from their fellows throughout the country only by the fact that they have had the advantage of enjoying that higher education which the university affords. Is it a principle of the new democracy that you are to eliminate every elector who possesses the higher education? Surely if ever there was a case where the claim for the representation of the universities is complete, it is the case of the Scottish Universities. It is perfectly true the Government may say "They always vote against us." The constituency which I have the honour to represent was at one time represented by a very distinguished Liberal—Sir Lyon Playfair. Why has that constituency parted company with the Liberals? It is because Liberalism has changed its maxims and has changed its practice. They have not forsaken you. You have forsaken them. And I do submit that the real sin of the university constituencies is chat they are not represented by Radicals. For that reason they ought to be extinguished. The President of the Board of Education said that university representatives were party men. What he meant by that was that they were party men on the wrong side. If the universities returned supporters of the Government we should hear from the Government nothing but panegyrics on the intelligence of the electors and what a feather in the cap of the Government it was that the best minds in the country which had had the advantage of the best discipline and the best training should return Members who approve of the Government policy. Mr. Lecky, whom I have already quoted, expressed himself very forcibly on this point with regard to the representation of the University of Dublin. He said that that university had sent to the Imperial Parliament a greater number of representatives of conspicuous ability than any other Irish constituency. He was one of them. An hon. Member has made an interruption. Does he suggest that Mr. Lecky's view of this subject was biassed by the fact that he was Member for the University of Dublin? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Then what is the sense of the interruption? He went on:— bring forward redistribution until you had ascertained how the new voters would be distributed throughout the constituencies. The truth is that the Government are sensible that they have nothing to gain by redistribution. They may lose by redistribution, and what they want is to have a General Election under this Bill, with the addition of the 3,000,000 and disfranchisement of the 500,000, without that justice which a system of redistribution would give. I desire only to say a few words on the machinery of the Bill. With regard to the first proposal to throw the work on the County Courts, I submit that the Government have grossly under-estimated the amount of work which the carrying out of this Bill will involve. The questions are not so simple as they suppose. The question of what constitutes residence is by no means a very plain matter. The questions of fact with regard to each man whose name is submitted to be placed on the register will be questions that require a very great deal of unravelling and a very great deal of time for that unravelling. The real difficulty in the case of the Court is not so much the law as the facts, and the Government are entirely mistaken in thinking that they can be disposed of in a very short time. The County Courts are already overburdened with work, and you are making a very great mistake in trying to thrust this new work upon them. The second point I desire to refer to relates to the position of the revising barristers, who are a most able and deserving body of men. They have done splendid work in elucidating the difficulties of our present system of electoral machinery. It is proposed, if I rightly understand this Bill, that these men should lose their posts, and lose them without any compensation at all. Do the Government expect this Bill to pass into law? If they do, I am perfectly certain that they cannot persist in a proposal which would do injustice to a large and most meritorious class of men by depriving them of those situations which they enjoy, and which to many of the revising barristers are of vital importance, without that compensation which is always given when a class of public servants have been deprived of their appointments.
There is only one other matter which I feel I must refer to, and that is the extraordinary attitude of the Government to the proposal to give votes to women. The President of the Board of Education (Mr. Pease) said, with obvious reference to what the Prime Minister laid down in this House, that the number of women who would be enfranchised would be something like ten and a half millions. The Prime Minister said that he would regard votes for women as a great, a national disaster, and yet, at the same time, he says he will leave it to the vote of this House whether that disaster is to take place or not, and that if the majority of this House vote for that disaster he will make himself the instrument for carrying it out. Was ever such an attitude assumed by the Prime Minister of this country before? Was there ever in this country a Government contented so to humiliate itself with regard to a great question, and to say: "We are so puzzled about this, so divided in opinion, that we leave our Prime Minister to say, 'It is a terrible thing, an awful calamity, but if the majority of the present House of Commons say that that calamity shall be brought about, I am content to make myself the instrument to carry it out, and will use all the forces of the Government to carry the Bill through to the Third Heading with that addition.'" It is an absolutely unexampled situation. The ex-Lord Chancellor (Lord Loreburn) said that the carrying of woman suffrage in this Parliament would be a constitutional outrage. It is an infinitely greater outrage that the Prime Minister has said he is prepared to perpetrate it. It is a novel thing altogether in our experience that a Minister should come forward and say that, "This is a most calamitous proposal, but if a majority of the House of Commons vote for it I am prepared to accept the situation; I am prepared, with my eyes open, to see the proposal carried into law." The truth is that this Bill marks another step, and a very long step, in the degeneration of political warfare to which we have been witnesses in this Government. Here we have party expediency and political opportunism at their very lowest point, and this House is asked to adopt a measure which in its every line is stamped with the desire, not to benefit the nation, but to benefit the party which brings it forward. Under those circumstances I trust that this House and the better opinion of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who are not present, but who probably in their absence will think over the subject, and whose absence is so conspicuous, will prevent this measure from becoming law.
We commenced our proceedings this afternoon after the introduction of the Second Reading by my hon. Friend by listening to an able and instructive speech by the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman). From that time until the speech we have just listened to I have no exception whatsoever to take in regard to the tone and the criticism that has been offered to the Bill that has been introduced by the Government, but I do take considerable exception to the way in which the right hon. Gentleman has been addressing the House. From the start to the finish of his speech he has done nothing else but ascribe petty, mean and malignant motives to His Majesty's Government. If it is a question of invective being hurled across the floor it is just as easy for us on this side to say that the support which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite give to our present system is because of exactly similar base motives to those which they attribute to us when they say that we have introduced this Bill merely for the purpose of party expediency, and with a view to promote the interests of our own party, irrespective of the merits of the case. The right hon. Gentleman began his speech by alluding to the empty benches on this side. He did not refer to the character of the opposition which has been shown to this Bill by the number of individuals who have been seated on the benches behind him. At one period this evening there was only one hon. Gentleman upon the whole of the Opposition Benches, and yet they have been asking us to provide up to six days in order that they might debate this Bill. The real reason is that the House knows that there is not going to be controversial business taken to-morrow, and the Members also know that there is going to be no Division to-night on the Second Reading of this Bill, and the benches for those reasons have not been well filled during the course of this Debate. Apart from that, the arguments in connection with this subject have been thoroughly threshed out in the country in years gone by. From 1891, when Mr. Gladstone first of all placed the abolition of the plural vote and one man one vote on the Liberal programme, to the present time every single Liberal candidate in the constituencies has always advocated it, and to say there has been no demand for this Bill is really absurd, because there is not a single Member who would have been returned to represent Liberal views unless he subscribed to the principle of one man one vote at every election.
The right hon. Gentleman has criticised what I said about university representation when introducing the Bill. I am not surprised that he feels the matter somewhat acutely, as his constituency is no doubt very materially interested in the University Clause of the Bill. But he entirely misrepresents me when he says that the reason I gave why university seats should be abolished was that the average electorate was much less in those constituencies than in others. I put forward the ground that in this Bill we adopted the principle of one man one vote. I pointed out that university electors would by their residence be able to exercise their votes as citizens, that they would have no grievance whatsoever, and that there was no reason within the four corners of this Bill for any fancy franchise. But I did incidentally say that hon. Members opposite who believed in the principle of one vote one value could hardly support the maintenance of university representation, owing to the fact that the average number of electors in a university was so insignificant as compared with the average number in other constituencies.
Criticism has been levelled against the Bill on the ground that it deals with plural voting. The hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) dealt with this point in two directions. He pointed out that it was possible for a certain number of individuals to obtain votes in more than one constituency, but he seemed to ignore the fact that the penalties were so severe that it was practically impossible for any of those individuals ever to exercise the plural vote even in the event of their names appearing on the register in more than one constituency. His complaint in regard to the abolition of the plural vote was really that property would no longer be defended in the same way that it has been in the past. He believed in the plural vote, because it was a defence of a vested interest. We on this side entirely part company with the hon. Member when it is a question whether property or individuals should be represented.
My point was not that property as such should be represented, but the element of stability in the different interests.
As to the element of stability, we believe that this country is much more stable when it is based upon equal electoral power than when the elections depend upon vested interests and the multiplication of votes in the hands of a few. There has been a good deal of criticism in regard to the 3,000,000 or 2,500,000 new voters to be placed on the register. I gave both figures as approximate figures, and with very great reserve. I cannot be sure that they are accurate. What I am sure is that very few individuals will appear on the register for the first time. The greater portion of the names added to the register will be those of individuals who, even under our existing system, would in the course of their lives appear from time to time upon the register. No new class, except those to which my right hon. Friend alluded, will be added to the register, but a large number of individuals who under our existing electoral system are temporarily disfranchised will under this Bill maintain their citizenship year in and year out. Take some of the higher class of labour in this country—for instance, masons, some of the most skilled and highly trained artisans in the country, who are employed by builders throughout the land. Hitherto those men have very seldom been able to qualify owing to their avocation taking them from place to place. There are a great number besides these in the community. There are ministers—Wesleyan ministers especially—miners, commercial travellers, and others. A great number of these do not reside for a couple of years continuously in the constituency, and the consequences is that it is an exception if they are put on the register. A large number of those classes that I have mentioned are on the register, although, as I have intimated, there are certain individuals of the classes that are not. Under the provisions of this Bill a great number of those deprived of their vote owing to their calling will in future be placed on the register. Both sides, I am glad to see, judging from the speeches, are in substantial agreement on a certain number of points. In regard to the registration proposals of the Government, the simplification of the register and the reduction of the qualifying period there is considerable agreement. Yet I believe the Opposition are going to vote against the Second Reading of this Bill.
Let me deal with the principle of continuous registration. It is apprehended that this Bill will throw additional cost upon the ratepayers, and it will place an increased burden upon the party agents. That is certainly not the intention of the Government. If in Committee it is shown that Amendments are required to meet points of that kind I am quite prepared to say that we desire to meet them. Let me take the extreme case given by the Member for North St. Pancras, who alluded to the possibility of 300 or so removals taking place in the course of the period in one or two constituencies in London. But the average removals from rural districts is nothing like that. Under the provisions of the Bill we only call upon the registrar—the county clerk, or the town clerk—once in every year necessarily to make full inquiry into the whole of his area with a view to satisfying himself that everyone eligible is on the register, but this work may be undertaken more frequently. In rural districts the movements of the population are comparatively few, and there the official concerned is able to call upon the overseers, or assistant overseers, and so on, as often as necessary in order to see that the register is properly attended to. Look at rules 13, 14, and 15, and hon. Members will see that the obligation is placed on the registrar to see that the names of every properly qualified person is upon the register.
I am satisfied that men like town clerks and clerks of county councils will do their duty without our placing penalties upon them in an Act of Parliament. But even if they happen to neglect their duty, the remedy is in the hands of any one who desires to make a claim on his own or on anyone else's behalf; the alteration can be made on the register in the following month by calling attention to the errors of omission or commission that may have occurred. It is suggested in connection with the County Courts that we are going to place a great deal of additional work upon the judges of those Courts, who are already overworked. We believe, as a matter of fact, the County Court judge will not in actual fact hear many cases; they will be referred by him to the Registrar of the County Court, who will take the necessary steps to carry out the work. Where there is a point of law, or some special points on which the registrar wishes to have advice of the County Court, he will obtain it, and upon points of law there will be an appeal to Higher Courts. The whole cost of the County Court is now borne by the Exchequer, and it will continue to be borne by the Exchequer, and from that point of view there will be no additional expense. The very fact that the expense will be distributed evenly over the year, instead of being rushed as it is under our present system, I believe will enable economies to be exercised. But if it is proved that there will be additional cost placed upon the ratepayers in carrying out our new system of registration, the Government are quite prepared to consider how far they can meet any expenses of that kind. It is not our belief that there will be any additional cost imposed upon the ratepayers. We believe if proper economy is exercised by the responsible officers there is no reason in the long run why there should be any increased expenditure.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he and the Government have considered the great objection that a large number of workmen have to going to the County Courts at all?
In our opinion there will be few cases in which workmen will be required to go before the registrar of the County Court. The question of the age of a man or the date upon which he enters into residence is of a simple character, and we believe the cases that will be brought to the Court will be comparatively few. In conclusion, let me say we believe this Bill will remove anomalies connected with the franchise, and that it will simplify the procedure of the registration system. It is honestly intended to enable the views of the electorate to be fairly and impartially reflected in this House, and it is put forward not with the view of helping one party or another, but with a view of doing justice as between man and man.
I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
Question put, and agreed to.
Debate to be resumed upon Thursday next.
Foot-And-Mouth Disease
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Gulland .]
I wish to ask the Minister representing the Board of Agriculture in Ireland a question with regard to the very serious statement made to-day affecting the common honesty of those in Ireland concerned with the new shipping order which I understand the Government have allowed to be issued affecting the port of Waterford. The right hon. Gentleman stated that advantage had been taken of this Order to ship diseased meat to this country, that would, in my judgment, bean offence which could not be prosecuted too severely; and the implication was that on either one side of the Channel or the other, either in Waterford or in Liverpool, the tongue of the head had been cut out, and, as I understand, some other mutilations effected so as to hide the disease from the inspectors whose duty it is to look after the matter. Speaking for myself, I did not believe one word of the story. It was told no doubt on instructions by the right hon. Gentleman—
indicated dissent.
I am not referring to the right hon. Gentleman. I am referring to his English colleague, the Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Runciman). I believe he has been entirely imposed upon, and I rise for the purpose of protesting against this alarmist statement being made to the injury of a trade that is of about £18,000,000 value to us in the year. It affects the English working men as regards the price of their meat far more perhaps than they have any conception of. This panic statement has been made by the right hon. Gentleman in order forsooth to vindicate his Department. Everyone knows this trade in the heads of animals is always carried or with the tongues cut out. The people in the North of Ireland are highly indignant. The statement is made by a number of officers, partly I believe out of jealousy of our country, and partly to show what tremendous vigilance is being exercised. What is the character of the person who has supplied this information? Who is he? Upon what grounds was this gross and serious statement made affecting not merely the port of Waterford, although it was directly in question, but affecting the whole trade of Munster? At this moment you have animals held up in our country of the value of hundreds of thousands of pounds, and the most serious injury is being inflicted upon the trade. I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman is not here. He might have well known, as this is a most important industry which flourishes in Ireland, we could not for a moment allow the statement to pass, and that we would take the earliest opportunity of calling the attention of the House to it. I ask the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. T. W. Russell) to keep a stiff back, or, as we say in Ireland, "a stiff upper lip" in this matter. I know Ireland is a country whose interests are not as great as England's, and I know there are tremendous difficulties, but I do say this is a time when we have a right to expect from the officers connected with Ireland complete independence, and that the right hon. Gentleman will not hesitate to tell those gentlemen connected with the English Board of Agriculture this cock-and-bull story which, as I believe, is circulated to the prejudice of our country, will not be tolerated as far as he is concerned. The real fact is that in the district of Swords two infected animals have been found. I believe when the facts are proved some strange developments will come to light as to how the disease came there. The English department circulated an atrocious statement that disease was found in Limerick. That is a falsehood. There is also another statement circulated that the disease has been discovered at Waterford. That, again, is a falsehood, but those things do incalculable damage to us. Our ports are closed to practically the only industry which our people possess, and if those things go on much longer how shall we be able to pay any rents, and where shall we get the money to pay the annuities to the State in connection with land purchase? I know that some Gentlemen here were anxious two or three years ago to allow Canadian cattle to enter this country, but this is a danger which some of us never contemplated. I protest against these groundless aspersions. On Friday the Government put down the Vote for the Salary of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture, and, as I thought, for the purpose of discussing this question, but, instead of which, we had a discussion about Sir Horace Plunkett, which does not keenly concern the people of Ireland at the present time, and which was started, as I believe, in the interests of rival traders carrying on business there. I think that when a grave crisis like this arises we do not want discussions on Sir Horace Plunkett. We want discussions in which pressure can be put on the Government to open ports which have been need- lessly closed, so as to restore to the trade and commerce of the country that freedom of which it should never have been deprived.
I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he is in a position to give the House any further information with regard to fresh alleged outbreaks of disease?
If the hon. Member had been in the House at Question Time he would know that I was asked a question on this matter, and while I said there was a report as to the outbreak, I added that inquiries were being made—
I quite argee that the statement of the right hon. Gentleman was entirely distinct from that made by the President of the English Board of Agriculture.
I have made investigations, and they are still going on. I stated that I had two inspectors at Water-ford and two at Limerick inquiring into the cases. I have a long telegram here which I have summarised in a form which will give the information asked for. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon asked in the afternoon as to the Limerick case. That has been dealt with by the Department, and this is our report:—
"It appears that two milch cows, bought on the Wakefield market from Mr. Christopher Sheehan, of Limerick, developed foot-and-mouth disease—one died shortly afterwards and the other was slaughtered. Our inspectors report that they have inspected the farms from which all cattle sold fey Sheehan came—they have inspected all the cattle which came in contact with Sheehan's consignment, and they report all healthy They are now engaged in making further and critical examination of all cattle in the district."
Let me here add that the information we have so far is that the disease in this case was contracted after the animals had left Ireland. I think that is a satisfactory report, so far as Limerick goes. In the Waterford case the Department's inspector, who was sent to Liverpool to examine the head, found the infected animal in the state reported by the inspector of the Board of Agriculture, and confirmed the diagnosis that the animal had suffered from foot-and-mouth disease.
The right hon. Gentleman says "the infected animal." It was only the head of the animal.
Yes, only the head. There was nothing else left. It was in the head that the lesions were discovered.
:Give us the names of the persons.
They were given this afternoon by my right hon. Friend.
I mean the names of the officers who diagnosed the disease?
:The Irish officer who diagnosed the disease was one of the ablest veterinary officers we have in the Department. The telegram adds—and this is the important thing as regards Water-ford—that the assertion that purposeful mutilation, with a view to concealment, took place may be dismissed. All the heads shipped from Waterford have the tongues removed separately for sale in the same way, so that that part of the information, which rather shocked the House, has no basis in fact. I am sure the House will be glad to be relieved of that weight. I admit that it would be a very disgraceful thing if that happened, and I am glad to ask the House to believe that it is not the case.
You say otherwise mutilated?
:Yes; the report stated that part of the lower jaw was cut. That might very easily have been the case. This cutting up of tongues takes place in every case at Waterford. That is the extent of the telegram I have received. The inspectors are now at work tracing where the animal came from, and these farms will be visited just as has been done at Limerick. I hope to be in a position to communicate to the House to-morrow what is the state of affairs. I must say, if I am to give an opinion on this subject, that I am quite satisfied that the disease did originate at Swords, and that three head of cattle from Swords infected the whole shipload, and there is the origin of the disease, and in no other part of Ireland is there a single trace of the disease. May I say that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Agriculture consulted with me this morning about the telegrams, and it was decided that he should read them to the House. I was responsible for it, although I did not give the particulars myself.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can explain to us more fully how the dead animal could have contracted the disease? He explained to us that the so-called animal came over in part, which was only the head, without tongue, and that it was otherwise mutilated. That beast must have had the disease before it was killed.
Yes.
How can you insinuate that the disease was contracted in that part of the carcase that had left the animal?
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is the universal practice, not only in Waterford, but I believe all over Ireland, when a beast is killed, that the head is separated from the body, and the tongue taken out of the head and invariably sold by itself.
I believe that is so. I am quite clear in my own mind, so far as our information goes at present, that there is no foot-and-mouth disease in any other part of Ireland. We have made a most diligent search. We are now investigating where the cattle came from. We must go by steps in this matter. It is a very difficult matter to investigate.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question—on what evidence has the statement been made that this head came from Ireland, and who is the Gentleman who said it?
I was going to ask the same question. Is it established that the head came from Waterford at all?
:Certainly; it is definitely established.
:It was killed in Waterford
:I have not said that.
I understand the head came over in a bag from Waterford with other heads, and therefore it must have been the head alone which left Waterford. The body could not have escaped in the bag. It may have been killed in some other part of Ireland, I see. Now we have it that in regard to the animals which died at Wakefield it is practically established that they contracted, or that they probably contracted, the disease on board ship. In regard to the head from Waterford, it was only established that the head came from Waterford. It has yet to be established where the animal to which the head originally belonged was killed. It was probably somewhere in Ireland. I think we can say no more upon that; but it would be very unfortunate if there were any sort of question raised as between England and Ireland. I am quite sure that anyone who is interested in agriculture, both in Ireland and England, has simply one desire—to run the disease down, and, so far as we are concerned as agriculturists in England we desire to have the privilege of taking the Irish cattle just as much as the Irish desire to send Irish cattle here. It would be most unfortunate if there were any semblance of feeling, or if there was any international question in the matter as between England and Ireland, and we may all unanimously support both right hon. Gentlemen in doing their utmost to trace the disease in every case at the earliest possible moment with the object of removing all unnecessary restrictions as soon as circumstances will allow.
:I ask the hon. Gentleman to believe that the Department is working night and day with that object.
Am I right in understanding that the right hon Gentleman's veterinary surgeon has reported that these heads which are alleged to have come from Waterford actually had the disease?
In one case.
As the head was on this side, how did he manage to find that out if the body was in Ireland?
:The head was in Liverpool. I sent an inspector to Liverpool and I sent two to Waterford to find out the origin of the cattle.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned at Twenty-five minutes after Eleven o'clock.