House Of Commons
Tuesday, 26th November, 1912.
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Established Church (Wales) Bill
Petitions were presented praying the House not to pass into law the Established Church (Wales) Bill by—
Mr. A. Strauss, (7 petitions) from Paddington bearing 2,432 signatures.
Mr. Parkes, (10 petitions) from the Central Division of Birmingham bearing 1,776 signatures.
Lord Henry Cavendish-Bentinck, (40 petitions), 15 from Nottingham bearing 4,057 signatures and 25 from the Rushcliffe Division bearing 9,543 signatures.
Mr. Dixon, (19 petitions) 3 from Boston bearing 558 signatures, 14 from the Spalding Division of Lines, bearing 1,427 signatures, and 2 from Grantham bearing 2,725 signatures.
Mr. R. Guinness, (39 petitions) from the South-Eastern Division of Essex bearing 5,821 signatures.
Viscount Helmsley, (71 petitions) from the Thirsk and Malton Division of Yorkshire bearing 10,370 signatures.
Mr Courthope, (31 petitions) from the Rye Division of Sussex bearing 6,780 signatures.
Captain Clive, (52 petitions) from the Ross Division of Herefordshire bearing 7,983 signatures.
Mr. Harold Smith, (30 petitions) 10 from Warrington, 12 from the Leigh Division of Lancashire, and 8 from the Walton Division of Liverpool bearing 17,000 signatures.
Mr. Mark Sykes, (83 petitions) 28 from South Leeds, 35 from the Osgoldcross Division of Yorkshire, and 20 from the East, West, and Central Divisions of Hull bearing 24,956 signatures.
Historical Manuscripts (Royal Commission)
Copy presented of the Report on the Manuscripts of Alan George Finch, Esquire, of Burley-on-the-Hill, Rutlandshire. Volume I. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
East India (Executive And Legis Lative Councils)
Copy presented of Amended Regulations for the Legislative Councils of Madras, Bombay, the United Provinces, and the Punjab [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Colonial Reports (Annual)
Copy presented of Colonial Report, No. 742 (Grenada, Annual Report for 1911) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers To Questions
Columbia (Mr H S' Hughes)
1.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when Mr. H. S. Hughes will be placed on his trial by the Columbian Government; and whether the British Consul has been instructed to report immediately any development of this case?
I have no information as to the date of the trial. His Majesty's Minister at Bogota has full instructions, and will telegraph any further development of the case. I shall then be prepared to make a further statement on the matter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say how long ago it is since the offence arose with which Mr. Hughes was charged?
I cannot say that without notice.
British Companies (Native Labour)
2.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any information suggesting that abuses have arisen out of the employment of aborigines under the control of British companies in other districts than those under the management of the Peruvian Amazon Company; and, if so, what steps are being taken?
I have not before me at the present time charges against British companies other than the Peruvian Amazon Company that have not been satisfactorily disposed of, but if the hon. Member would inform me what particular districts and companies he has in his mind, I will endeavour to give a more precise answer. It is a somewhat arduous undertaking to search all the correspondence relating to British companies in all parts of the world for the last seven years.
69.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received any information suggesting that abuses have arisen out of the employment of aborigines under the control of British companies in other districts than those under the management of the Peruvian Amazon Company; and, if so, what steps are being taken?
Occasional complaints are received from coloured and other persons employed in foreign territory, but I have no reason whatever to suppose that any state of affairs corresponding to that revealed by Sir Roger Casement's report exists in the case of any British company employing labour from British Colonies and Protectorates in foreign territory.
3.
asked whether the Prime Minister of Persia has recently invited back to that country Saad-ed-Dowleh; and whether, in doing so, he acted on the advice of the British Minister at Teheran?
The answer to the first question is in the affirmative, and the step was taken with the encouragement of the British Minister. I had reason to believe that Saad-ed-Dowleh's return might be of use in the present crisis and had instructed the British Minister accordingly. I gather that there is a tendency on the part of some people—I do not mean on the part of my hon. Friend—to confuse Saad-ed-Dowleh with Salar-ed-Dowleh or even with Shuja-ed-Dowleh. He is not the same person as either of these two nor, so far as I am aware, has he any connection with them, and I hope some attempt will be made to keep the names distinct.
Coinage Of Rupees (India)
4.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India the number of Indian rupees that have been coined during the last five years; the amount of profit accruing to the Indian Government ox the Imperial Government by such coinage; and the use to which the profit is put?
In the five years ending 31st October, 1912, about 668 lakhs of rupees were coined. The profits were about 201 lakhs, which were added to the Gold Standard Reserve, except that about 35 lakhs were used for capital expenditure on railways, in accordance with a recommendation of the Railway Finance Committee of 1907–8.
Army Service In India (Examinations In Persian)
5.
asked whether officers of the Indian Army and officers of the Royal Engineers serving with Indian units in India are debarred from getting any rewards for passing the lower standard and higher standard examinations in Persian, and that officers of British regiments serving in India are eligible for these rewards; and, if so, what is the reason for this distinction having been made between the Indian Service and the British Service in India?
The effect of certain recent Amendments to India Army Regulations would appear to be as stated in the question. The reason for this differentiation between the two Services is not known to the Secretary of State. An inquiry has been addressed to the Government of India on the subject.
Mysore (Claim Of M Vencata Row)
6.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to a money claim made by M. Vencata Row, as sole executor of one Subadra Boyi, against the Government of Mysore; whether a tribunal in Mysore rejected the claim solely on the ground that the will under which Subadra Boyi derived title was not proved because probate had been granted, not on the will itself, but on a copy of it; whether M. Vencata Row, while maintaining that the tribunal exceeded its jurisdiction in decideing that matter, searched for and obtained the original will referred to, and begged leave to produce it before the tribunal, but that this request was refused; and whether, as the only ground on which an adverse decision was based has now been displaced, he will take steps to reopen the case and secure that a claim which is admittedly well-founded in fact and law shall be admitted?
A Regulation of the Mysore Legislature constituted a Special Court in 1896 to try and determine and pass final judgment as to the person or persons, if any, entitled to the moneys in question, and directed the Government of Mysore to carry out the final judgment of the Court. The Court was not satisfied that such a will had ever been executed, or that if executed it had been lost and could not be found, or that a copy of the will produced was a correct copy of the original will. When the document which was alleged to be the original will, but which has never been proved to be such, was found, the Court had already been dissolved, and no power remained to reconstitute it. Such being the case, successive Secretaries of State, after repeated examination of all the circumstances, have considered it impossible to press the Mysore Government to reopen the case, and my Noble Friend regrets that he must adhere to this decision.
Is the Indian Government of opinion that this man has a really substantial grievance?
It may be so, but it is not certain, and unfortunately the case cannot be reopened.
Purchases Of Silver (India)
7.
asked if the suggestion of Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company, contained in their letter to the India Office of 16th April, that their first purchases of silver for the Government should be postponed for two months at the market rates, estimated at ⅛d., equal to a shade under 3 per cent., entailed a further brokerage to them on this transaction; and, if so, how much?
As shown in the correspondence circulated on 19th November, a brokerage of ⅛ per cent, was paid on the amount postponed.
Are we to understand that the transaction entailed double brokerage fees to Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company in addition to the 3 per cent that had to be paid by the Government for postponing delivery for two months?
Yes, Sir, two brokerages.
Had not that transaction the effect of making the Government pay 4½ per cent, per annum on the money?
I gave reasons for postponing in response to an earlier question.
8.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India, if his attention has been called to the fact that £600,000 worth of silver was purchased by Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company on behalf of the Government of India on 11th September at 29⅛d., whereas the market price of the day was 28 13–16d.; and what is the amount of the difference in cost and commission between the two amounts?
The market price of 28 13–16d. was the price for silver bought for cash in London, in respect of which the cost of freight and insurance to India would have been paid by the purchaser. The purchase actually made was of silver to be sent from China, freight and insurance being paid by the seller, and the purchase price being paid partly on arrival in Bombay and partly some days after arrival. The extra gross purchase price was £6,438, and the extra commission was £8. Against this there was a saving of about £6,400 on freight, insurance, and interest. The Secretary of State is satisfied that so large a purchase could not have been made for immediate delivery in London at the date mentioned without raising the London price, which, a week later, had risen to 29 3–16d., and continued to rise for several weeks afterwards.
Will the hon. Gentleman answer my question whether this £600,000 worth of silver was bought above the market price?
I have answered the question. The market price in London is not the price of silver delivered in India, and this silver was bought in China, freight and insurance being paid by the seller.
9.
asked how the India Office satisfied themselves that Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company acted as brokers and not as dealers in purchasing silver, seeing that he is unaware of the names of the sellers from whom the silver was purchased?
Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company were instructed to purchase silver on behalf of the Secretary of State, i.e., to act as brokers; the contract notes furnished by them indicated that they acted in that capacity; they have assured the Secretary of State in writing that they did so; and have offered to submit their books for inspection by his representatives.
Do the India Office still dispute that Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company carry on business as dealers as well as brokers?
I can only say in answer to the hon. Member's suggestion that the Secretary of State has satisfied himself on this point, and if at any future date he wishes to examine the books he can do so.
Has he examined the books?
He has not done so, but he is perfectly satisfied.
How can he be satisfied?
The hon. Member had better put the question down.
It is done.
19.
asked whether the Secretary of State for India is able to submit any estimate of the additional cost of the recent silver purchases on behalf of the Government of India, owing to the accumulation of large balances at home having encouraged native speculators to form a ring to force up the price of silver against the Government, as compared with the probable cost if, during the last three years, moderate amounts of silver had been purchased to be minted when required; and can he give any assurance that the accumulation of unnecessarily large balances in London will be avoided in future?
The Secretary of State is unable to estimate what would have been the effect on the price of silver if he had made purchases in 1909, 1910, and 1911, when they were not required. In abstaining from such premature purchases he acted in consultation with the Government of India and in accordance with their views. He has no desire to accumulate unnecessarily large balances in London, and their large amount in the last three years was mainly due to the net receipts in India from revenue and other sources being largely in excess of the estimates and to a very heavy demand for remittance.
If these balances are not required in India, does it not indicate that the people of India are unduly taxed for the benefit of the London Money Market?
20.
asked if the India Office approached the Bank of England this year on the subject of purchasing silver before the order was placed with Messrs. Samuel Montagu and Company; and, if so, did the Bank of England decline to purchase because they were asked to do so through any specified firm?
The Bank of England were not approached on the subject this year.
22.
asked whether there is, or has been within the last ten years, a contract or agreement between the India Office and the Bank of England relating to the purchase of silver; and, if so, the terms and state when it was entered into and when it expired?
Before 1906 the Bank of England charged ⅛ per cent, on all silver purchased through them. This was separate from the commission paid to brokers. In March, 1906, an agreement was made by which the Secretary of State was to pay ¼ per cent, for brokerage, commission, etc., on the first two millions purchased in any financial year through the Bank, and ⅛ per cent, on any further amount, the payment to be divided between the Bank and the brokers, as might be arranged by them, without the intervention of the India Office. The agreement was for the period from 1st April, 1906, to 31st March, 1913.
Is this a compulsory arrangement?
It is to last until 1913, but it is not compulsory.
Is it not binding?
It is not compulsory.
Will the hon. Gentleman give the House the terms of the agreement?
Yes, if the hon. Member asks for it.
Factory Inspectors (India)
10.
asked the Under-Secretary for India whether, having regard to the fact that of the total number of factory managers in India, namely, about 2,430, some 2,000, or 78 per cent., are Indians, and all the ordinary factory operatives are Indians, he will take steps to secure the appointment of an adequate number of Indian factory inspectors who are acquainted with the conditions prevailing in Indian factories, and who, speaking the same language as the operatives, will be better able to obtain correct information, and may therefore be expected to perform their duties more efficiently than inspectors sent from the United Kingdom?
I am unable to verify the hon. Member's figures, but it is a fact that European managers and assistant-managers are employed in the larger factories. First-hand knowledge of the working of the Factory Acts in this country is also an important qualification for inspectors in India. There is no bar to the employment of Indians in such offices, but the responsibility for enforcing the Indian factory law rests with the local Governments, and the Secretary of State is not prepared to interfere with them in their selection of agents.
Lord Nicholson's Committee (Report)
11.
asked whether the Committee presided over by Lord Nicholson has yet completed its labours; and when the Report will be presented?
The Committee has not yet completed its labours. It is not known when its Report will be presented.
Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is the desire of hon. Members to discuss any changes that may be contemplated?
I will convey that view to the Secretary of State.
Council Bills (India)
12.
asked whether, as the Secretary of State for India does not intend to restrict his drawings by weekly sales of Council Bills to the amount of home payments on account of the Government of India, but proposes to sell additional bills, so far as the resources permit, provided there is a sufficient demand for them, it is to be understood that he is not prepared to place a limit on the accumulation of balances in London?
The accumulation of balances in London is limited in three ways: First, by the capacity of the Government of India to meet Council Bills from their balances; secondly, by the practice of regulating the sales so as not to interfere with the flow of gold to India except to prevent the necessity of its being subsequently re-exported by the Government; thirdly, by the practice of using part of the balances for the discharge of floating debt and for capital outlay.
17.
asked why trade requirements, for which the Secretary of State for India has sold Council Bills and telegraphic transfers in excess of payments which he has to make on account of the Indian Government, have not been met under the operation of the Gold Note Act, which was intended to provide for the free and automatic flow of funds to India and for the maintenance of exchange should the flow turn in an opposite direction, thus safeguarding India's financial position; is the proper course to buy silver in London against the sales at 13.4 5–32d., shipping it to India and minting it into rupees, the profit going to build up the gold standard reserve; and why has this practice been neglected at the risk of getting the financial position into a tangle?
The Gold Note Act (i.e., Act II. of 1898, as amended by Act VIII. of 1898) expired on 21st July, 1900. Silver has been bought and coined as required and the profit has been added to the gold standard reserve, with the exception of about £1,100,000 used for capital expenditure on railways in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee of 1907–8 on railway administration and finance.
Gold Standard Reserve (India)
13.
asked the lowest figure to which the sterling portion of the gold standard reserve sunk when a moderate strain was placed on it during the adverse trade conditions of 1908, and the amount before the transfer of a chance balance of £8,090,000 from India's surplus funds held by approved borrowers or on deposit in London?
The lowest figure was £5,966,724 (securities being valued at market price). The Secretary of State does not understand the last part of the question.
14.
asked what became of the exchange profit on the transactions of bringing home balances at about 1s. 4 5–32d. (the bullion point) used to restore the gold standard reserve in 1908–9, and the £8,090,000 sold in India or London against them at or about 1s. 3⅞d.?
The profit on bills sold by the Secretary of State in India above 1s. 4d. per rupee, or by the Government of India in London below that rate, is added to the general balances of the Government of India; and the usual practice was followed in the cases mentioned. But the Secretary of State did not sell at 1s. 4 5–32d. per rupee in 1908–9, nor did the Government of India sell at 1s. 37/2d.
Why has not the profit been added to the gold standard reserve, to which it properly belongs?
I have told the hon. Member that the usual practice was followed.
15.
asked whether it is in accordance with the recommendations of the Fowler Committee that a large portion of the gold standard reserve should be held in silver as at present, while a large portion of the paper currency reserve is held in gold to meet obligations which can only be demanded in silver?
The silver branch of the Gold Standard Reserve was established on the recommendation of the Government of India in 1906. The holding of gold in the Paper Currency Reserve originated with the Gold Note Act of 1898, which was passed before the Fowler Committee was appointed, and is mentioned in paragraph 15 of its Report. It now continues under the Indian Paper Currency Act of 1910. It is not the case that the obligations against which the Paper Currency Reserve is held can only be demanded or met in silver. Notes are encashable in legal tender money, which includes sovereigns and half-sovereigns as well as rupees and subsidiary coins.
Finance Methods (India)
16.
asked whether the Under-Secretary for India has considered the risks involved in the present financial methods of the India Office if within the next few months, in addition to the monetary demands in India to move its crops, there should arise troubles requiring the bulk of the large balances at present lent to banks and approved borrowers in London and the Paper Currency Reserves, to be available for use in India; is he aware that it would necessitate the sudden withdrawal of many millions from the London market and the purchase of enormous sums of silver, which would force up the rate and upset markets; and will he consider a change of policy in future to avoid this risk?
One of the advantages of the present method of holding the India Office balances (which has been in force since 1838) is that the loans and deposits can be called in, if required, at short notice and without difficulty, as is illustrated by the fact that, since 31st March last, they have been reduced by £8,915,000, and the money, if required for the purchase of silver, becomes available at the most convenient place. If the hon. Member wishes to submit proposals for a change of policy, the Secretary of State will be glad to consider them.
Does the hon. Gentleman consider the effect on the Money Market if the banks and approved borrowers are suddenly called upon to pay out many millions of money, as they are under a technical obligation to do?
That is a very speculative question. I have answered the point already as far as it can be answered.
21.
asked what margin* is required by the India Office over and above the current market value of the securities deposited by the approved borrowers of the cash balances of the Government of India?
India Sterling Bills, India Bonds and Guaranteed Debentures of the several Indian Railway companies are taken at par. British Treasury Bills, Exchequer Bonds, Metropolitan Water Board Bills and London County Bills are accepted at their market value except when the unexpired period is very short, in which case they are taken at par. The other securities that are accepted are taken at their minimum market value on the day of the loan with a five per cent, cover, which is at once added to if the value of the security falls during the currency of the loan.
Paper Currency (India)
18.
asked the maximum sum for which there is statutory authority for investing the Paper Currency Reserve in British Government securities?
The maximum sum is 40,000,000 of rupees.
Imprisonment Of Mr Arnold (Rangoon)
23.
asked whether the Governor-General has received from Mr. Arnold, now in prison for libelling a magistate at Rangoon, an appeal for a re-trial; and, if so, whether the Governor-General will use his powers to have such appeal transferred to Calcutta?
The Secretary of State is not aware that an appeal for a retrial has been made by Mr. Arnold to the Governor-General. The Governor-General has no power to order a retrial, nor would the Calcutta High Court have jurisdiction to deal with an appeal of the kind.
I shall call attention to the whole of the circumstances of this case on the Motion for Adjournment.
Artillery Ranges
24.
asked the Secretary for War if he will give particulars of land purchased in England or Scotland during the last two years for the establishment of Artillery ranges?
Nearly 19,000 acres have been purchased at Ad Fines and nearly 5,000 acres at Salisbury Plain for Artillery ranges.
Southern Command (Local Audit Staff)
25.
asked the Secretary for War whether, in view of the fact that the local audit staff on the established list attached to the Southern Command, who are paid from Civil Service Votes, are receiving a substantial addition to their remuneration owing to the present high cost of living prevailing there, he will, in revising the ration allowance of the soldiers on the same administrative staff, consider their claim to additional remuneration on the same grounds?
I regret that I still cannot follow the hon. Member's reference to this staff; but if they are paid from Civil Service Votes they would not be administered by the War Office.
Army Reserve
26.
asked the Secretary for War whether his attention has been called to the case of Francis Entwistle, who joined the Scots Guards in 1891, and served with the colours until 1898, rejoined from the Reserve on mobilisation in 1899, and served in the South African War, earning the Queen's South Africa medal and clasp for Belmont, Modder River, Paardeberg, Diefontein, Johannesberg, Diamond Hill, and Belfast, and also the King's South Africa medal and clasp 1901–2, and was then transferred to the Reserve, joined Section D, 1st Class Army Reserve in 1901, completing sixteen years' service in all; and whether he will reconsider the refusal to allow Entwistle to serve a second term in the same Reserve because he was following the occupation of cotton weaver, but at the same time being well used to horses; and, if not, whether he will recommend the Regulations being so altered as to admit of men of this stamp entering the class of Reserves referred to or let it be known to men joining the Army from the textile trades that it will be impossible for them to take full advantage of the Regulations unless they learn another trade?
My attention has been drawn to this case. Re-engagements for a second term of service in Section D are regulated by paragraph 18 (a) of the Army Reserve Regulations, and are confined to those men who can be employed on their trades on mobilisation, e.g., bakers, butchers, carriage smiths, wheelers, saddlers, etc. A weaver could not be employed on his trade while serving with the troops on mobilisation. It is not considered to be in the interests of the Service to make the suggested extension of the Regulations, and I regret therefore that I am unable to take the action suggested by my hon. Friend.
National Reserve
27.
asked the right hon. Gentleman if he is now in a position to state his intentions as to giving any assistance to the National Reserve?
I am not yet in a position to make a statement on this subject.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be able to make a statement?
I certainly will make a statement, but I would not like to pledge myself as to the precise date. It will be before long. The matter is being considered.
In the meantime the National Reserve gets one penny a month. Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether one penny a month is sufficient encouragement for the National Reserve?
I do not think that arises out of this question, but, in any case, the matter is being considered as to the best form in which further developments of the National Reserve can take place. I am not aware that there is any such discontent as the hon. Member suggests.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position to make an announcement on this subject?
No, Sir; I cannot definitely say when I will make an announcement. I shall certainly make it before next year's Estimates, and in the meantime the National Reserve continues to grow satisfactorily.
Army Horses
28.
asked what is the average length of training necessary to make a horse efficient in Cavalry, Horse Artillery, Field Artillery, Howitzer and heavy batteries, Mounted Infantry, and other mounted units respectively?
It is impracticable to lay down any definite period for such training, as the time necessary depends upon the horse's age, condition, and temperament, and the facilities for training. In the Artillery, I am advised, that a seasoned horse can take its place in the team practically at once.
Does that apply to Horse and Field Artillery?
That is the advice I am given, that a seasoned horse can be put in almost at once.
Territorial Force
30.
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether any officer of the Volunteer Force or the Territorial Force has been appointed to the Territorial Force Reserve who has exceeded the limit of age laid down by regulations; and, if so, whether he will give favourable consideration to officers who, though they have exceeded the age of forty-five years, are under the age at which officers are compulsorily retired from the active list of the Territorial Force, provided they are specially recommended by the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief on account of their physical fitness and general military qualifications?
A few officers have been so appointed under exceptional circumstances. It is not considered that any useful purpose would be served by a general relaxation of the regulations, but the Army Council are prepared to consider as special cases applications for the appointment of officers whose age exceeds the limits laid down.
31.
asked the right hon. Gentleman what is the number of Territorial Infantry that his military advisers consider to be necessary for the defence of these shores; what was the number actually in the ranks as per last state; what number does the establishment provide for; what is the object of wishing to maintain so many troops above the number required; and whether, if the establishment is the correct number required, the number of men serving in the ranks is dangerously below the number required?
The establishments and strength of the Territorial Infantry on the 1st November were as follows:—
| Officers. | N. C. O. s and men. | |
| Establishment | 5,745 | 196,627 |
| Strength | 4,724 | 159,450 |
Does not the right hon. Gentleman understand that half the attacks against the Territorial Force are made through evasive answers on this point; can he not tell us the number of men he requires, and then we will do our best to try to get them?
That is an argumentative question.
32.
asked how many of the Territorial Infantry have not been to camp this year; how many have done eight days' training and under; how many have done over eight days' training; how many have done the full musketry course; and how many have failed to reach the full standard of efficiency in musketry?
The figures for camp are as follows:—
| Officers. | N. C. O. s and men. | |
| Absent | 656 | 22,697 |
| Present: | ||
| Less than eight days | 15 | 194 |
| Eight days and less than fifteen | 609 | 50,400 |
| Fifteen days and over | 3,493 | 88,720 |
National Insurance Act
Soldiers
29.
asked the, Secretary of State for War if complaints exist among soldiers, who are eligible to join approved societies, that representatives are not permitted to visit them in barracks to explain the Sections of the National Health Insurance Act which especially refer to men in the Service; and if he will give instructions for the removal of the prohibition under proper regulations?
Instructions have recently been sent to general officers commanding to take measures for explaining to soldiers the advantages of joining approved societies. I am informed that in many cases the local military authorities have got representatives of societies to come to explain the Act to soldiers. There are over 500 such societies who are willing to accept soldiers, and it is not considered desirable to give a general permission to all their agents to visit men in barracks; hut steps are being taken to see that every reasonable facility is afforded to soldiers to join approved societies.
Will the right lion. Gentleman consider the advisability of appointing a special day or hour at which the representatives of the various societies can attend in the large barracks for the purpose of enrolling members?
Yes, Sir, I will, certainly consider that suggestion, and every opportunity shall be given to soldiers of joining approved societies.
And officials of trade unions?
Income Tax
33.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if a man whose income, when joined to that of his wife, exceeds £160 a year is liable to pay Income Tax upon the joint income; and, if that is so, whether a man who is an employed person and whose income, in conjunction with his wife's, exceeds £160 a year is not entitled to exemption from the provisions of the National Insurance Act?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, subject to the exception under 60 and 61 Vic, c. 24, Section 5, where the husband and wife are each separately earning an income from personal labour and the joint income does not exceed £500. With regard to the second part of the question, I would refer the Noble Lord to the answer I gave my hon. Friend the Member for the Ossory Division of Queen's County on 25th October.
Welsh Insurance Commission
39.
asked whether the Treasury agreed that an assistant secretary to the Welsh Insurance Commission should be appointed; whether the Welsh Insurance Commissioners decided that a knowledge of Welsh was not necessary for that officer; having so decided, whether they advertised in July last for an assistant secretary, the advertisement not specifying that a knowledge of Welsh was necessary; whether, on 13th September, the Commissioners nominated as assistant secretary an Englishman with experience of matters connected with the National Insurance Act; and whether the Treasury delayed the matter for a month, and then disapproved of the candidate selected by the Welsh Insurance Commissioners on the grounds that the person nominated could not speak Welsh?
The answer to each of the questions is in the affirmative. The Treasury regard a knowledge of the language of the Welsh people as an essential qualification for the post of assistant secretary of the Welsh Commission.
May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as the Secretary of the Welsh Commissioners is a capable Welsh scholar competent to deal with the Welsh letters, as the Treasury state; whether it is not the duty of the Welsh Insurance Commissioners to appoint as assistant secretary a man who has had considerable administrative training and has had a good practical experience in working the initial stages of the Insurance Act?
I should like to see those questions in writing.
Medical Benefit
35.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the resolution passed on Tuesday, the 19th instant, by the representatives of the divisions of the British Medical Association that the provisions of the National Insurance Act are unworkable and derogatory to the medical profession, and that the medical profession decline to take service under the Act and Regulations as at present constituted, he proposes to recast the Regulations for providing medical benefit in such a manner as shall not be injurious to medical science and practice in this country; and, in any case, how he proposes to provide the medical benefit offered under the Act to insured contributors?
I was requested last week by the British Medical Association to receive a deputation in regard to certain points in the Regulations relating to medical benefit and acceded to their suggestion. I am at present in communication with a committee appointed by the association for that purpose. In the circumstances I consider that no statement could usefully be made.
Licensing Appeal Court (Grangemouth And Kilsyth)
40.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether a separate Licensing Appeal Court will be set up for Grangemouth and Kilsyth, since the increase in population has entitled Stirling to a separate Court; and, if not, can he account for the delay?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. An Order dealing with the matter will be issued in due course. I understand there is no urgency as there is no business for the Appeal Court arising out of the recent Licensing Courts.
Scottish Universities (Fees)
41.
asked whether the directors of the Carnegie Trust consulted the Scottish Education Department on the question of making the leaving certificate examination of the Department a condition of the payment of university fees; whether there have been any communications of any kind between these two bodies on this subject; and whether any attempt was made to elicit the opinion of the Scottish universities upon it?
The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the negative, as is also the answer to the third part, so far as the Scottish Education Department are concerned.
Is it not a fact that no communication whatever passed between, these two bodies?
That was my answer.
44 and 57.
asked the Secretary for Scotland (1) whether, in view of the fact that the original constitution of the Carnegie Trust declares that no capable students shall be debarred from university education, he is prepared in the interests of Scottish education to make representations to the trust that their policy of insising on the leaving certificate of the Scottish Education Department as the necessary preliminary to obtaining a Grant in aid of fees is likely to debar a type of student who previously has been one of the most valuable assets of the Scottish universities; and (2) whether the Scottish Education Department has considered the special case of medical students who now take a preliminary examination in subjects which cease to be subjects of instruction for their degrees, inasmuch as the new regulations of the Carnegie Trust, by forcing them to take the leaving certificate of the Scottish Education Department before they can receive Grants in aid of fees, may delay their entrance to a university for eighteen months in case of failure in only one subject; and whether he proposes to take any steps to prevent this policy militating against the reputation of the Scottish medical schools?
The Regulation referred to is not as stated in the questions, nor do I think its effect is correctly stated. It does not apply to all students as appears to be suggested. It does apply to students entering the universities from the secondary schools, as a general rule and with certain qualifications, and as applied to such students I regard it as salutary in its effect and calculated to advance the interests of sound education. Otherwise, as I have already stated recently, neither as Secretary for Scotland nor as the Minister responsible for the administration of the Scotch Education Department have I any jurisdiction over the Carnegie Trust or the Scottish universities.
Am I to understand that the Carnegie Trust grant will not apply to students who have not gone through secondary schools and are entering a university?
No, I said nothing of the kind.
What did you say?
54.
asked whether, in leaving certificate examination of the Scottish Education Department, the principle of compensatory marking exists; whether this is so in the preliminary examination of the joint board of preliminary examiners at the universities; and whether, therefore, in the view of the Scottish Education Department, the university preliminary examination is a more satisfactory test of the capability of a student to enter on a university career than the leaving certificate of the Department?
My hon. Friend appears to have in view the fact that, in determining the award of the leaving certificate, excellence in one subject of a candidate's group may be allowed to compensate, within reasonable limits, for weakness in another. This, however, has no effect on the marking in individual subjects, passes in which alone can confer exemption either in whole or in part from the university preliminary examination. The reply to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Are we to understand that the Scottish Education Department are now of opinion that the preliminary examination by the Joint University Preliminary Board has a superior value to the Scottish-leaving certificate?
That is the question that is asked me?
It is a question arising out of the answer.
55.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the fact that the Carnegie Trust in Scotland are endeavouring to insist upon the leaving certificate of the Scottish Education Department as preliminary to a Grant in aid of fees to students entering the universities, he can see his way to arrange for a spring and autumn examination for the leaving certificate, so as to avoid the present loss of time to a student who may fail in one or two subjects?
It is not accurate to suggest that the leaving certificate is required in all cases, nor do I think that under the present system difficulties arise which would justify the proposal of my hon. Friend, even if it were practicable.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that a student failing in one subject in the leaving certificate examination is not able now to advance to a university for a period of eighteen months?
No, I am not aware of that.
Tobacco Duty
34.
asked why the Customs Import Duty on imported foreign-cut tobacco is 4s. 8d., while the drawback of duty on British-cut tobacco exported is only 4s. 1d.?
The differences between the Import Duties and the drawbacks allowed on similar articles manufactured in the United Kingdom have existed since the revision of the Tobacco Duties by the Manufactured Tobacco Act of 1863. The subject is a technical one, and the reasons for these differences cannot be stated within the limits of an answer to a question, but they were explained by Mr. Gladstone in this House on 23rd and 27th February and 2nd, 5th, and 19th March, 1863.
Is it not a fact that British-cut tobacco at present is really protected against foreign-cut tobacco?
I remember that being the subject of controversy in this House, and it took about three weeks to settle it.
Land Value Duties (Ireland)
38.
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether the grand total produced by the Increment Value Duty, the Reversion Duty, and the Undeveloped Land Duty together in Ireland during the last financial year was £157; and whether he can state or give any estimate of the cost of collecting this sum?
The total amount of Increment Value Duty, Reversion Duty, and Undeveloped Land Duty paid in Ireland during the year to 31st March, 1912, is as stated in the first part of the question. As regards the second part, I would refer to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury to the hon. Member for Oswestry on 22nd February last.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider it satisfactory that in the third year of the existence of these taxes the proceeds of the three taxes together should amount to a sum which is nothing like the amount allowed to two Members of Parliament for their travelling expenses?
I never stated that I expected much Land Value Duty from Ireland. On the contrary, I remember that during the discussion, when it was staled there would be a heavy burden on Irish land, I said quite the reverse.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that the smallness of the produce may, perhaps, account—
That is in the nature of an argumentative question.
Registrar Of Sasines
42.
asked whether there is any vacancy at present in the office of the Register for Sasines caused by the removal of an official in that office in the beginning of October; and, if so, when is it intended to fill it up, and have the Civil Service Commissioners no qualified person whom they can recommend to fill up the vacancy?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It is proposed to defer filling the vacancy pending the holding of another competitive examination, which will be held in due course. Three appointments have already been made upon the basis of the last examination held, when there were eleven competitors, and the keeper of the Register of Sasines prefers to await the results of another examination before making other appointments.
Will the right hon. Gentleman read certain correspondence I have on the subject?
Certainly, with pleasure.
Prisons (Scotland) Act
43.
asked whether the provisions of the Prisons (Scotland) Act, 1909, regarding the appointment of women members to the visiting committees for Scottish prisons, have been generally adopted; and, if so, how many women are now members of such committees?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. At present there are forty-two women members of visiting committees distributed over the nine prisons in Scotland where women are ordinraily imprisoned.
Are there not two lady visitors at Perth?
Yes, I believe so.
Government Legislation (Preliminary Investigation)
49.
asked the Prime Minister whether there is any precedent for His Majesty's Government making investigations, upon the results of which legislation is to be based, by any other means than an open, impartial, public, and fair inquiry?
If, as I presume, the Noble Lord refers to the unofficial body as to which he has made previous inquiries, the answers which I have already given show that in our view the suggestions made in the question do not accurately represent the relation of the Government to the Committee and its findings.
Why are the Government afraid of having an open, impartial inquiry into the land system?
The Government are not afraid.
Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean that in the eyes of the Government the findings of this inquiry will have no value?
No, certainly not. The Government leave themselves free to adopt or modify them as they like.
Who bears the cost?
Not one penny comes out of public funds.
Home Rule (Scotland)
50.
asked whether it is intended to introduce the Home Rule Bill for Scotland during the lifetime of the present Parliament?
I can at present make no statement as to the business of Parliament in future Sessions.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mind me drawing my own conclusions from that answer?
Not in the least.
51.
asked in what way the financial details of Irish Home Rule were considered in relation to the financial details of Scottish Home Rule, and upon what basis was the result of these considerations arrived at; whether any moneys expended for Irish internal or Imperial purposes will fall to be paid out of the Imperial Exchequer; and, if so, whether Scotland will have to pay a share of such?
The consideration of the financial details of a Scottish Home Rule Bill would be premature at the present time. Moneys expended by the Irish Government will be provided mainly from the Transferred Sum which will be issued out of the Imperial Exchequer, but which will be far more than covered by the revenue derived from taxation in Ireland. With respect to the deficit in the cost of the Reserved Services I would refer the Noble Lord to my answer to his question on Thursday last.
Am I to understand from all that that Scotland will not have to pay any share of what I may call Trish expenditure?
In so far as there is a deficit resting upon the Imperial Exchequer, Scotland will contribute her proportion.
Foot-And-Mouth Disease
52.
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the statements made to him recently by a deputation of Scotch importers of Irish cattle and to repeated statements made by Irish stock-raisers as to dependence of the one upon the other for the successful prosecution of their respective shares in presenting finished fat cattle to the British consumer, and to the general views expressed by the spokesmen of the deputation that the rules applicable to England should not be denied to Ireland, he will now consider the advisability of appointing a Select Committee of this House to take evidence from experienced agriculturists, and report as to what permanent regulations should exist governing the transit of cattle from one country to the other in the event of an outbreak of disease in either?
The responsibility of regulating the transit of cattle between Ireland and Great Britain when disease exists in either country ought, in my opinion, to be left to the Departments concerned. I do not think that any advantage would be gained by the appointment of a Select Committee.
What will happen if (he Departments concerned fail to agree between themselves as to what is the proper course to adopt?
It will then be decided by the Cabinet.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a very strong feeling amongst British agriculturists that there should be some Committee in order to facilitate co-operation between the two Departments?
Does the hon. Member mean a Committee of this House?
A Select Committee, not necessarily of this House, but preferably.
Perhaps the hon. Member will put down a question independently.
Government Of Ireland Bill
Irish Finance (Committee)
40.
asked the Prime Minister how many copies of the evidence given before the Committee on Irish Finance were printed?
Thirty-eight copies were printed for the use of the Cabinet, the members of the Committee, and the officials concerned.
Legislation (Reserved Matters)
47.
asked, with reference to Clause 2 of the Government of Ireland Bill, by which the Irish Parliament is precluded from making laws in respect of trade, quarantine, merchant shipping, lighthouses, trade marks, merchandise marks, copyright, patent rights, or weights and measures, whether the officers who perform the Executive duties in Ireland in relation to these matters will be exempt from any jurisdiction of or disciplinary obedience to the Irish Executive, and will be solely amenable to the several Imperial authorities administering such services from the respective headquarters in London?
The answer is in the affirmative, except to the extent of any arrangements that may be made between the Imperial and Irish Departments under Clause 40. Those arrangements are to be such as not to diminish the responsibility of the Imperial Department by which the arrangement is made.
Irish Minister
48.
asked what Minister of the Crown will, after the passing of the Government of Ireland Bill, answer questions relating to Ireland in the British House of Commons?
As I have stated before, there will be a Minister in this House answerable for Ireland: it is impossible as yet to say what will be his precise designation.
When does the right hon. Gentleman propose to determine who is to be the Minister who is to answer these questions?
I think when the Bill comes into operation.
Will there be any Irish questions?
Will the existence and the duties of this Minister be provided for by legislation, and, if so, why is there no such legislation in the Bill?
I do not think it is necessary to provide by legislation.
Can a new post and new duties be created without legislation?
No, but it is quite possible that a Minister already in existence may be charged with the duty.
Will the office of Chief Secretary be abolished?
School Inspectors (Scotland)
56.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of future appointments to the inspectorate of schools in Scotland, he proposes to issue a Memorandum to the profession indicating the positions for which teachers will be eligible; and whether he can state how far actual teaching experience will weigh with the Scottish Education Department, in addition to other academic qualifications, in making such future appointments?
Actual teaching experience is at present a consideration of great weight in making appointments to the inspectorate, and it is probable that even greater weight will be given to it in future, but I see no need to issue a Memorandum on this point.
58.
asked to what class of inspectorship Mr. Angus Macdonald has recently been appointed; whether Mr. Macdonald is a trained teacher; how many years he has taught; whether there are among the ranks of His Majesty's inspectors any cases of teachers, either in elementary or secondary schools, who have risen to the grade of junior inspector; and, if so, after how many years' service?
Mr. Angus Macdonald has been appointed a sub-inspector of the second class. He is a trained teacher who has taught for nine years. Among the ranks of the inspectorate other than sub-inspectors, all but six were previously teachers in elementary or secondary schools. The periods of service of these men range from about one year to twenty-three years, exclusive of service as pupil teachers and attendance at training college. Of the six already mentioned, one had experience in teaching as a lecturer at a training college, two at technical colleges and in continuation classes, and the other three had experience of teaching at a university.
How many sub-inspectors have risen to the grade of junior inspectors?
The hon. Member must give me notice of a question like that.
It is in the question now.
59.
asked whether during the last ten years junior inspectors have been appointed to the inspectorate over the head of sub-inspectors who have had practical training in teaching; and, if so, how many?
Seventeen junior inspectors have been appointed in the last ten years, but it is not correct to say that they have been appointed over the heads of sub-inspectors. Nor is the implication of the question that practical training in teaching is confined to the grade of sub-inspector in any way correct.
If these men have not been appointed over the head of the sub-inspectors and the sub-inspectors remain where they are, are they not under these men?
They are two distinct classes of officials.
School Accommodation (Scotland)
62.
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he has made any estimate of the cost of providing the additional school accommodation which will be necessary if the Scotch Education Department Minute of 27th March, 1911, reducing the size of classes from sixty to fifty is enforced; and what will be the probable amount of the rise in the education rate in poor and populous areas where the classes are now all up to the present maximum of sixty?
I am sending the lion, and gallant Member a copy of the Minute to which he refers, so that he may see what its precise effect would be. He will see that it would not be possible to make the estimate he desires. I am not aware of any districts where all the classes are now up to the maximum of sixty.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will accept my statement, that according to a calculation which has been made the rise in the education rate in some of those areas may be 5d. in the £?
I could not accept that figure without examination.
Early Closing By-Laws (Greenock)
63.
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he has received notice from the Greenock Corporation regarding early closing by-laws, under the Burgh Police Amendment Act; and can he say whether these recommendations will be sanctioned or otherwise?
I have received these by-laws, and I have also received several petitions against them, which I have referred to the town council for their observations. I am not yet in a position to answer the last part of the question.
Conviction Of Boy (Glasgow)
64.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the conviction, in the Glasgow Criminal Court, of a boy of 17 of stealing, and his sentence to two months' imprisonment; whether, in view of the youth of the prisoner, he will consider the advisability of altering the sentence; and whether the Borstal system is intended to provide an alternative and reformatory method of punishment in cases such as this?
If my hon. Friend intends to suggest that the boy to whom he refers should be transferred to the Scottish Borstal Institution, this is not in my opinion a case for the exercise of the power of transfer. The minimum Borstal sentence is one year, and the treatment is not intended for short sentence prisoners.
Crofters, Cunningsburgh
65.
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that applications from Cunningsburgh, Shetland, have been sent in by a number of crofters for extension of Scot-held rights; and when it is likely that the said application will be considered?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Board of Agriculture for Scotland expect to send a representative to Shetland during December with a view to considering this and other applications.
Afforestation (Festiniog, Merioneth)
66.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will state, in connection with the afforestation of a part of the Crown land situate in the, parish of Festiniog, in the county of Merioneth, and known as Hafod Fawr, and referred to on page 51 of the Eighty-ninth Report of (he Commissioner of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenue, the number of acres planted, the number and varieties of the trees planted, the cost per acre of the planting, including that of fencing and draining, if any, and the subsequent annual sum, if any, expended on the afforestation?
The number of acres planted is about 150. Over a million trees have been used. They comprised larch (native Japanese and a few American), Scots and silver fir, spruce (Norway and Sitka), Corsican and Swiss pine, Austrian pine (for shelter), and a few Weymouth pine and Douglas fir, alder, ash, and a few hard woods. The total cost per acre down to 31st March, 1909, was about £20, and this includes, besides the expenses of actual planting, those incurred in fencing, draining, clearing, weeding, forming a nursery, and purchasing trees. No new ground has been planted since 31st March, 1909. The sums expended in the three subsequent years, including all maintenance expenses, were as follows:—
| 1909–10 | … | … | … | £359 |
| 1910–11 | … | … | … | £297 |
| 1911–12 | … | … | … | £309 |
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is planting the varieties of larch which are peculiarly subject to disease?
The planting was done previous to 1909. If the Noble Lord wishes to have a list of the trees, I shall be very pleased to supply him with it.
Does £20 an acre include the cost of re-planting?
I can only give the cost as £20 an acre down to 1909 as representing the charge for the purposes stated in my answer.
Fruit Trade (Standardisation)
67.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he proposes to take any steps to promote the standardisation of packages containing fruit, and of the numerous varieties now grown in English orchards and fruit plantations, so as to render their produce more marketable?
Not at present.
68.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he proposes to introduce legislation, similar to that in operation in many of the United States and in the Oversea Dominions, to render compulsory the spraying of orchards and fruit plantations infested with easily communicable insect or fungoid pests, or the destruction by fire of infested fruit trees and bushes, in order to prevent injury and commercial loss to fruit growers clue to the carelessness or ignorance of their neighbours?
The Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907, already enable the Board to direct the spraying or destruction of fruit trees and bushes for the purpose of preventing the spread of any destructive insect, fungus, or pest.
House Of Commons (Ventilation)
70.
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether there is any reason why all the windows of the Chamber should not be left open while the House is not sitting?
It is the general practice to keep windows of the Chamber open when the House is not sitting; the number that are opened, and the extent of opening, is governed by the direction and strength of the wind.
Ryde Police
71.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will state the reasons why Sergeant Watson, of the Ryde Borough Police, has not been granted the Coronation medal notwithstanding the fact that he was the oldest police constable serving in the Isle of Wight at the time of the Coronation of King George, with thirty years' service with exemplary conduct to his credit, during twenty of which he had served as a sergeant; and whether, in view of these facts, he can see his way to authorise the bestowal of an extra medal on this deserving officer?
A certain number of medals was assigned to each police force in proportion to its numbers. In advising His Majesty as to the distribution of these medals to officers other than chief constables, I was guided by the recommendation of their chiefs. In the case of Ryde, Mr. Watson was not the officer selected for recommendation. I am sorry that I cannot now advise the bestowal of any further medals.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire why Sergeant Watson was not selected? It has been a gross miscarriage of ordinary justice.
There may be more than one opinion on that point.
Factory Inspectors (Appointments)
74.
asked the Home Secretary if he will state how many of the recent appointments of eleven junior inspectors of factories and two lady inspectors represent additions to the staff and how many the filling up of vacancies; and what is the position in relation to the proposed appointment of seven inspectors' assistants?
Three of the junior inspectors and two of the assistants represent additions to the staff, the remaining appointments being for the purpose of filling vacancies.
Workmen's Compensation Act (Claims)
75.
asked the Home Secretary if he can state the amount paid by employers under the Workmen's Compensation Act in the year 1911; the number of individual claims paid in the case of temporary accidents and the average weekly rate of compensation; the number of claims paid in the case of fatal accidents and the average amount paid per case?
I am unable to give my hon. Friend the figures for all employments to which the Act applies, but for the seven great groups of industry for which returns are collected—that is, mines, quarries, factories, docks, railways, constructional works, and shipping—the figures are as follows:—
- Total amount, £3,056,404.
- Number of disablement cases, 419,031.
- Average payment, £5 16s.
- Number of fatal cases, 4,021.
- Average payment, £154.
Fencing And Cleaning Machinery
76.
asked the Home Secretary if the conferences between factory inspectors, employers, and operatives in the cotton trade on the questions of fencing and cleaning machinery, etc., have been concluded; whether there are any conferences arranged in other trades, and, if so, in which trades; and whether any of these conferences have met?
The conferences in the cotton-spinning trade were concluded last March, and a report of the result has been published and issued to the parties concerned. I have directed a copy of the report to be sent to my hon. Friend. A similar series of conferences in respect of the woollen and worsted industries will shortly be concluded at Bradford; and another series, dealing with cotton weaving, was commenced at Blackburn on the 6th instant. Conferences respecting iron foundries will commence at Manchester en 10th December next.
Coal Mines (Inspectors Of Animals)
77.
asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that the Coal Mines Act. 1911, received the Royal Assent on the 16th December, 1911, and came into operation on the 1st July, 1912, and in view of the fact that that Act contained important regulations relating to the care and treatment of horses and other animals in mines, and that Section 109 expressly provided that the Secretary of State should appoint special inspectors for examining into the care and treatment of such horses and other animals and for enforcing the provisions of the Act in relation thereto, and in view of the urgency of the matter, he will state how many special inspectors of horses and other animals in mines have been appointed under the Act and for what districts; and, if no such inspectors have been yet appointed, whether he will state the reason for the delay that has taken place and when the inspectors will be appointed, what are the districts into which the United Kingdom is to be divided for the purpose of such inspection, and how many inspectors are to be appointed for each district?
As I explained in reply to questions on the 6th August and the 21st October, a very large number of applications was received for the new appointments of inspector of horses. These applications were referred to the new Board for mining examinations lately established under the Coal Mines Act of last Session. The examination of the numerous applications has necessarily occupied a considerable time, but I understand that the recommendations of the Board will be received shortly. In accordance with the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on the Report stage of the Bill, one inspector of horses will be appointed for each of the six divisions into which the United Kingdom will eventually be divided for inspection purposes. I may add that consulting veterinary surgeons have already been appointed.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state into what districts the country will be divided?
The ordinary six divisions into which the country is divided for the purposes of the Act.
What is the size of the divisions which each inspector will have?
The six divisions cover the whole country.
The whole United Kingdom?
Yes.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that there will be six inspectors?
Yes. That was stated on the Report stage of the Bill. It was announced by my right hon. Friend that the appointments would be of six horse inspectors, and that was approved of by Parliament at the time.
What is the meaning of "very shortly"? Does it mean next month?
That is not under my control, but I understand from the Board of Examinations that the result of the examinations will be announced shortly.
I beg to give notice that, in view of the unsatisfactory nature of that answer, I will call attention to the matter on the Motion for Adjournment to-night.
Royal Navy
Naval Cadets' College
78.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the naval cadets at Osborne College have been without facilities for learning to swim practically ever since the college was started; and if representations have been made to the Admiralty or the Treasury to provide these facilities?
I do not think I can add anything to the answer which the First Lord of the Admiralty gave the hon. Gentleman on the 5th instant.
Assistance Of British Colonies
79.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will give particulars of any assistance which has been given or offered by British Colonies in respect of the maintenance of the Navy; whether such assistance is intended to be as far as possible proportionate to the naval expenditure necessary for the security of the Colonies affected; what portion of naval expenditure can be attributed to the position and needs of Ireland; and if, to avoid discouraging the co-operation of Colonies with similar powers of self-government to those proposed to be conferred upon Ireland under the Government of Ireland Bill, the Government will make provision for Ireland to contribute as its quota to the cost of Imperial defence the proceeds of any Import Duties which may be imposed on English goods, or some definite amount, from the beginning of the operation of Home Rule?
The information about the contributions of the Dominions may be found in the various official publications, and will at a later date be brought together into a single Parliamentary Paper. The latter part of the question appears to be appropriate to the Debate on the Government of Ireland Bill rather than to a question and answer on Admiralty business.
How soon will that Paper be published? Will it be published immediately after the announcement is made in the Dominion House of Commons?
I am not quite sure. I am looking for an appropriate opportunity of bringing the whole thing together.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question with regard to Ireland, or ought I to direct it to the Chief Secretary?
The question appears to be an argumentative one. It deals with certain aspects of matters which will follow on the passage of the Government of Ireland Bill. I should have thought that the occasion of the Debate of that measure would have furnished the hon. Gentleman with the opportunity he speaks of.
Telephone Service
80.
asked the Postmaster-General if Mr. James Morton informed the controller at 144, Queen Victoria Street, on the 24th September last, that he would require his telephone, the rent for which had been paid up to the 30th April, 1913, to be removed from 25, Old Broad Street, to 85, London Wall, as soon after the 30th September as possible; and, if so, will he state how much time elapsed between the date given by Mr. Morton to the controller as the date on which he was moving his office, namely, the 30th September, and the date on which his telephone was connected up at his new premises?
Notice of removal was received from Mr. Morton on the 26th September and the work was completed on the 8th instant. The case was complicated by the fact that Mr. Morton was taking over the agreement of another subscriber, and about sixteen days were occupied in the negotiations and in completing the transfer, but there was clearly delay which should have been avoided, and of which I have taken suitable notice.
81.
asked whether it is proposed to discontinue the telephone service to Rhum, Muck, Eigg, and Canna; and, if so, why is this course adopted?
There is no telephone service to any of the islands named, and there is no telegraph service to Muck. As regards the telegraph service to Eigg, Rhum, and Canna, I would refer the Noble Lord to my answer to the hon. Member for Argyll on 6th March last.
Is the right, hon. Gentleman aware that the result of this is to cut off the inhabitants of Rhum and Canna from the benefit of telephone communication?
I do not know to what the Noble Lord is referring.
82.
asked the Postmaster-General if he has received complaints as to the existing system of payment for telephone calls, under which deposits are demanded from the subscriber at uncertain intervals, and no detailed account of the expenditure of such deposits rendered; has he in contemplation any change in the system; and, if so, can he give the House any information as to the alterations which he intends making?
I would refer the Noble Lord to the reply which I gave on the 16th July last to the hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth. No further change is under contemplation.
83.
asked the Postmaster-General if his attention has been called to the fact that Messrs. Baker Brothers, of Finchley, were served with a demand note for a deposit of £3 in respect of Telephone No. 259 Finchley, at the end of October last, by the controller, the statement of account accompanying the demand showing a balance of 10s. 4d. due to the Post Office; and to the fact that in response to a request from Messrs. Baker for a detailed statement of account they were furnished by the same authority with a balance-sheet showing a credit, after the payment of the deposit of £3 on 1st November, of £1 17s. 1d. in Messrs. Baker's favour; can he say how the discrepancy in the second account presented by the same authority arose; and will he say what steps he intends taking to obviate errors of this kind in the future?
I am informed that the balance of 10s. 4d. due to the Post Office was shown on the account rendered to Messrs. Baker Brothers as outstanding at the end of September, and that the additional calls made during October brought the amount outstanding at the end of that month to £1 2s. 11d. After the payment of the deposit of £3 on 1st November the amount standing to Messrs. Baker Brothers' credit was therefore correctly stated as £1 17s. 1d.
86.
asked when something is going to be done in order to make the telephone service between Dublin and Wexford and the intermediate offices available for subscribers?
The method of working the Dublin-Wexford line has recently been modified, and I am informed that an improvement in communication has resulted. Steps are being taken to effect further improvement at the earliest possible date.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the telephone between Wexford and Dublin has been out of order for the past twelve months, and no messages could be sent by subscribers, and will he kindly take the matter in hand in earnest and see that this trunk telephone is made right?
Yes. Steps are now being taken. I am aware that the service has been defective. The Department has the matter in hand now.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the telephone service in Ireland is too extravagant? Is this one of the economies which it is hoped to effect under Home Rule?
Manchester Telegraph Office (Mr Bradley)
85.
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to fact that a sorting clerk and telegraphist named Bradley, of the Manchester office, who was known to be suffering from telegraphists' cramp, was removed from a rota containing only a small proportion of instrument duty to one with a much larger proportion; whether he is aware that this had the effect of entirely impairing his manipulative ability; and whether, in view of the fact that it is alleged this action was simply taken with a view to bringing Mr. Bradley into a better position for observation, he will review the local endorsements relative to Mr. Bradley's removal?
I am fully acquainted with the circumstances regarding Mr. Bradley. The change of rota was made in order that he might gain experience of writing work, and was in his own interests. There was a greater amount of telegraph work on the rota to which Mr. Bradley was moved, but the circuits were not heavier, and there was no reason to think that the work would be beyond his powers. I am satisfied that Mr. Bradley has no ground for complaint as to his treatment, and that no useful purpose would be served by reopening the case. Mr. Bradley was removed entirely from telegraph duties over a year ago.
National Union Of Women's Suffrage Societies
I desire to ask why question No. 72 on the Paper was not asked? This question in its original form is a foul slander, and I want to know if the question has been postponed?
The question has been postponed by request.
Is it in order to suggest that an hon. Member has asked a question containing a foul slander?
I rose to interrupt the hon. Member.
I only postponed it at the request of the Home Secretary. I am only too willing that it should be investigated.
Vacation Of Seat (Member Holding Contract)
53.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will advise His Majesty to submit the question of whether the hon. Member for Whitechapel has vacated his seat to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council under Section 4 of 3 and 4 Will. IV., c. 41?
Can the course suggested in the question be followed having regard to the fact that proceedings of this House, especially in relation to the qualifications of its Members, are guarded against any interference not authorised by the laws of the country, and that by law and custom of Parliament the Crown cannot take notice of anything done in this House but by the report of the House itself?
No doubt that is a correct statement of constitutional doctrine. In reply to the Noble Lord's question, the House having decided to appoint a Select Committee to inquire into the matter, I do not see my way, at any rate at this stage, to adopt, the suggestion of the Noble Lord.
Is the right lion. Gentleman aware that the Section of the Act to which reference is made includes any question whatever, and is not confined at all to questions which affect the Crown; and is he further aware that any Report made by the Privy Council will not be in any way binding upon the House, but merely by way of authority and advice?
I think the Noble Lord is quite right in what he says. He will notice I carefully guarded my answer. I said I do not see my way at this stage.
In the event of a Court of Law finding that the hon. Member has vacated his seat and incurred penalties, will the Committee continue their interesting researches?
I do not like to repeat a hackneyed answer to the question. We do not know yet what a Court of Law may find.
I beg to ask the Attorney-General a question of which I have given him private notice: whether it is a fact that a writ was issued on the 11th instant against the hon. Member for Whitechapel (Sir Stuart Samuel), claiming penalties in respect of votes given in this House which are alleged to be illegal? When did information of the issue of the writ reach His Majesty's Government, and why was such information not disclosed to the House and to the Members required to serve on the Committee before the Motion of Friday, the 22nd instant, was passed?
No information of the issue of a writ had reached His Majesty's Government on Friday when we discussed the matter, or has reached His Majesty's Government at the present moment. All that I know of it is that I have seen it in the Press this morning.
Established Church (Wales) Bill
I desire to ask the Prime Minister whether he still adheres to the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, that the business on Friday is to be the first day's business of the Committee stage of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill?
We hope to begin the Committee stage on Friday, but I have been looking into the matter, and I quite agree with those who think it would not be a reasonable thing to take on Friday both the Instructions and Clauses 1 and 2, and we do not propose to do so. When we come to the discussion of the Motion for the allocation of time on Thursday, I hope to be able to make provision.
Orders Of The Day
Business Of The House
Has the right hon. Gentleman any statement to make about the business after eleven o'clock to-morrow evening?
When will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to slate to the House what the arrangements will be for Christmas, as I am sure hon. Members are anxious to know what is going to be done?
I hope at the beginning of next week. In answer to the Noble Lord's question, to-morrow we shall take the Money Resolution of the North Killingholme Admiralty Pier.
Is any other business to be taken on Friday after the Committee stage of the "Welsh Disestablishment Bill?
No.
New Member Sworn
Thomas Taylor, esquire, for the Borough of Bolton.
National Accounts (Examination)
I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to extend the powers and duties of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and to amend the Law relating to the examination of National Accounts."
The object of this Bill is to establish an examination of public expenditure, and to give extended powers to the Comptroller and Auditor-General acting under a Finance Committee. It may be said that we have already the Public Accounts Committee, but the Finance Committee in dealing with money matters would act in no party spirit, and would deal with them purely as a matter of business. There would be no censure on the Government, and such a Committee would have power to go into the National Accounts. At present we cannot go into a study of the Estimates because, even if we do, we cannot bring the results before the House. If there were a Finance Committee sitting upstairs these matters could be brought before it, and some good could be done in the way of control of expenditure. In county councils, such as the County Council of Lancashire, and in corporations, such as that of Manchester, they have a finance committee; the Dock Board of Liverpool have a finance committee, and other and similar bodies also appoint finance committees. I do not suggest that these committees have any power over policy, but they can see that money is spent to the best advantage. I can understand that permanent officials would be against this change, and that, in certain quarters, the measure may not be popular, but we are tired of listening to lawyers hour after hour with their interminable claptrap. I have said that this will not be a party Committee, and business men amongst Liberal Members opposite would be able to serve upon it, and I believe the result would be that very large sums would be saved to the country. 4.0 P.M. I have gone into this matter carefully, and I estimate that in the first year there would be a saving of a million of money, and similarly in the second, third, fourth, and fifth years, so that by the end of five years, by checking extravagance and by effecting reductions, there would be a total saving of £5,000,000. After that period I cannot say what would be the amount saved. I think that with the appointment of this Committee a great deal of good work would be done for the public welfare. I believe that if business men or chambers of commerce will agree, that large sums could be saved to the country by the adoption of my proposal. I do not think that this should be a party question, and my hon. and gallant Friends behind me need not fear that the appointment of such a Finance Committee would at all interfere with the Naval and Army Estimates. All that the Finance Committee would be able to do would be to see that the money was well expended, and that soldiers, for example, did not go into battle with bayonets of soft steel. Our accounts and contracts would be examined by such a Committee, and this cannot be done at the present time, as we have no machinery to do it; and I think that if we adopt the plan that I submit it would work well, as it has already done in the case of county councils, municipal councils, and other bodies. Official answers given to questions on these business matters do not suffice, because there are so many lawyers and professional politicians who give them; but upstairs, before a Committee, such answers would not be tendered. In future if you should decide to have an aerial fleet, the Committee would be able to find what was the cost of an aerial fleet in France, and we would in this way be enabled to get the benefit of the experience of other countries. At present there is no system of finding out these facts. The War Office have financial advisers, but we find that, in effect, they have as much influence over finance as intelligence officers have over the Intelligence Department. We are the only great nation who adopt our methods. The great nations on the Continent have an Estimates Committee somewhat similar to what I am suggesting. Those great nations like Germany found out that there was great waste, and questions were put by that Estimates Committee to the German officials. If those great Continental nations, who are supposed not to be so astute in business as ourselves, have found by experience that those Committees helped them to save money, then I think it is well worth our while to consider the matter.I would remind the lion. Member that the Rule under which he is bringing in his Bill limits him to a brief explanatory statement.
I beg to move.
I would point out that we have already two Committees which deal with the examination of accounts—one is the Public Accounts Committee and the other is the Committee set up last year. I desire to ask you, Sir, whether the Bill is in order. It is a Bill "to extend the powers and duties of the Comptroller and Auditor-General." That part of it is. I venture to say, in order, but it goes on to say, "And to amend the law relating to the examination of national accounts." That, I venture to say, is not in order, since, as far as I know, there is no Statute regulating the examination of national accounts, and this House, I understand, has always held that any Committee which is set up for that purpose is to be set up by this House, and not by Statute. Hon. Members opposite will probably agree with that for the reason that this House does not desire its pro- cedure to be controlled or interfered with by the other House. If there is a Statute it must go to the other House. I would ask whether the second part of the proposal is in order.
The first part "to extend the powers and duties of the Comptroller and Auditor-General" is clearly in order. With regard to the second part, I do not like to commit myself until I have seen the Bill. I do not know on the face of it which is the law relating to the examination of national accounts. I do not gather in what way the hon. Member seeks to amend it, but when I see the Bill, if the hon. Baronet will take objection before the Second Beading, I shall then be in a better position to decide.
I venture to offer an uncompromising opposition to this Bill. Its title may be good, but its methods, I am perfectly certain, are very bad. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City has-already pointed out that we have two Committees dealing with our financial relations. I find it very difficult to follow those Committees or to read the Reports they send in. If we have a third Committee dealing with a similar subject, I shall be quite bewildered, and I am perfectly certain if I am not the majority of Members will be. I have listened very attentively to what the hon. Member said in his speech; his remarks were attentively observed on this side, but they were not quite audible or connected. I gather from him, in the first place, that he is dissatisfied, and thinks that we are not getting real full value for the money we spend. If that is the case, I think he should begin by reducing expenditure. That would be a popular method, at any rate with the taxpayers, and certainly on the large items of expenditure it would be popular on this side of the House. That is a matter which certainly, in my opinion, ought to come before any new method of account. The hon. Member said that Germany and other countries had a Finance Committee of the kind which he proposes to set up here. I am a thorough Englishman, and, though I have a great admiration for many foreigners, I do not want to adopt foreign Parliamentary methods, and that is a very good ground for opposing the method he has proposed. The hon. Member also said it would only take about two hours per week for a Committee to put the accounts of this great nation in order.
I did not say that.
I am very glad the hon. Member did not, because it did seem to me an absurdity. What he did say was that by this method he would show how to save a million per year, or five millions in five years. In that case, if he had an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I am sure he would give him a warm and welcome reception. For those very good reasons I offer the strongest
Division No. 325.]
| AYES.
| [4.10 p.m.
|
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Fleming, Valentine | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gardner, Ernest | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Gibbs, G. A. | Newman, John R. P. |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Goldman, C. S. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Baird, J. L. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gretton, John | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Barnston, Harry | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Barrie, H. T. | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Helmsley, Viscount | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hills, John Waller | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Boyton, James | Hoare, S. J. G. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hope, Major A. (Midlothian) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Horner, Andrew Long | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Butcher, John George | Hunter, Sir Chas. Rodk. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Ingleby, Holcombe | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington) |
| Campion, W. R. | Jones, Lelf (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Jowett, Frederick William | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Joynson-Hicks, William | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Cassel, Felix | Kimber, Sir Henry | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Knight, Captain E. A. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Larmor, Sir J. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Lewisham, Viscount | Valentia, Viscount |
| Chappie, Dr. William Allen | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Clyde, James Avon | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Clynes, John R. | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lyell, Charles Henry | Winterton, Earl |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Hon. S.) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. G. (Droitwich) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Maclean, Donald | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Younger, Sir George |
| Dixon, C. H. | Magnus, Sir Philip | |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Malcolm, Ian | |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton, M. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Kebty-Fletcher and Mr. Stanler. |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Moore, William |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Ainsworth, John Stirling | Banbury, Sir Frederick George |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) |
| Adamson, William | Arnold, Sydney | Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Beauchamp, Sir Edward |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Beck, Arthur Cecil |
opposition to this Bill, and if it goes to a Division I hope the majority of the House will support me.
Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 11, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to extend the powers and duties of the Comptroller and Auditor-General and to amend the law relating to the examination of National Accounts."
The House divided: 264. Ayes, 158; Noes,.264.
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Sentham, G. J. | Holt, Richard Durning | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Bird, Alfred | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Boland, John Pius | Hudson, Walter | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Hughes, S. L. | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Illingworth, Percy H. | Radford, G. H. |
| Brace, William | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Rattan, Peter Wilson |
| Brady, J. P. | John, Edward Thomas | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Reddy, Michael |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Joyce, Michael | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Keating, M. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kellaway, Frederick George | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Clough, William | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Kilbride, Denis | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lardner, James Carrlge Rushe | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Crooks, William | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rowlands, James |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Cullinan, J. | Lundon, T. | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Lynch, A. A. | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | McGhee, Richard | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| De Forest, Baron | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Sheehy, David |
| Delany, William | Macpherson, James Ian | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Devlin, Joseph | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Doris, W. | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Snowden, P. |
| Doughty, Sir George | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Duffy, William J. | Meagher, Michael | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, W.) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Sutton, John E. |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Millar, James Duncan | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Molloy, Michael | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Tennant, Harold John |
| Falconer, J. | Mooney, J. J. | Thomas, James Henry |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Morgan, George Hay | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Morrell, Philip | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morison, Hector | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Muldoon, John | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Gill, A. H. | Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Ginnell, L. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Needham, Christopher T. | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Glanville, H. J. | Neilson, Francis | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Nolan, Joseph | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Wardle, George J. |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Waring, Walter |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Gulland, John William | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Doherty, Philip | Webb, H. |
| Hackett, John | O'Donnell, Thomas | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | O'Dowd, John | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Hancock, J. G. | O'Grady, James | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas f. |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Whyte, A. F. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | O'Malley, William | Wiles, Thomas |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Shee, James John | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Hayward, Evan | Outhwaite, R. L. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Hazieton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Hinds, John | Pirie, Duncan V. | |
| Hodge, John | Pointer, Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Hogge, James Myles | Pollard, Sir George H. | King and Mr. Booth. |
Police Acts Amendment
Motion made and Question, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Police Acts, 1839 to 1909" [ Sir Charles Schwann]—put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Charles Schwann, Sir James Fortescue Flannery, Sir William Priestley, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Remnant, and Mr. Wiles. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed.
Government Of Ireland Bill
Considered in Committee.
Nineteenth Allotted Day—Progress 25Th November
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Finance
Clause 15—(Powers Of Irish Parliament With Respect To Taxation)
(1) The Irish Parliament shall have power to vary (either by way of addition, reduction, or discontinuance) any Imperial tax so far as respects the levy of that tax in Ireland, and to impose in Ireland any independent tax not being in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax, subject to the following limitations:—
and the power of the Irish Parliament to make laws includes a power to make laws for the purpose of giving effect to the powers of taxation under this provision—
(2) For the purposes of this Act—?
The first Amendment, as I stated yesterday, will be that standing in the name of the hon. Member for South Birmingham (Mr. Amery), to insert the words "other than Customs or Excise Duties," but after the full discussion we had yesterday, I do not think that hon. Members should go over the same ground. The next Amendment will be that in the name of the hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Cassel), proposing to leave out the power to levy new taxes in Ireland. The next, if we have time, will be that standing in the name of the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins) to insert the words: "The Irish Parliament shall not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production or export of goods."
I beg to move in Subsection (1) after the word "tax" ["any Imperial tax"], to insert the words "other than Customs or Excise Duties."
We consider this Amendment, not only as one justified in itself, but as a test of the sincerity of Members opposite who have declared themselves in favour of a Federal Constitution. It has been admitted that every Federal Constitution in the world clearly reserves these powers to the Federal authority. That is not a mere coincidence, or a mere convention. I suggest that it springs necessarily from the whole nature of Federal government. The difficulty of Federal government lies in reconciling the natural desire of a local government for greater powers with the need for national union, and the way in which that difficulty has always been got over is by making the industrial and economic interests of the citizens coincide, not with the State or Province, but with the nation as a whole. By abolishing provincial boundaries in those matters which most concern the life of the ordinary citizen, you make him feel that the nation is the real Federal unit, and that the Province or State is a mere administrative convenience for certain purposes. That is clear when you are dealing with an attempt to bring about greater union among separate States; it is even more clear when you are breaking up an existing union at the instigation of a party who have always avowedly aimed, not at Federalism, but at Separatism. I am ready to believe that hon. Members opposite do sincerely desire a Federal scheme, but surely they are alive to the fact that many of the Members behind me, and still more their supporters in Ireland, do not desire a Federal scheme, and are bound to make efforts to break down a Federal system in favour of a Separatist system. One might not be surprised if hon. Members in their eagerness to prevent Separatism and to make Federalism really work were prepared to abandon their Free Trade principles and accept a protective tariff for the United Kingdom, just as the New South Wales Free Traders accepted a Protectionist tariff in Australia; but nothing is more surprising than to find hon. Members opposite accepting the division of the United Kingdom in this most important matter. They protested enough about it in words. We even found the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, when speaking of his unreflecting Home Rule Friends demanding that Ireland should have power to fix Customs and Excise, describing them as having no State left at all. After all these protests comes a petty little Amendment from the Postmaster-General, which would not remove a single objection of a sincere federalist. The Bill remains not a whit less objectionable, and a great deal more ridiculous, but straightway the whole opposition collapses. I am not going over the ground which has been covered in previous Debates. I would point out that that Amendment, as far as it goes, is bound to be only temporary. It is certain to be swept away when the financial revision comes. The hon. and learned Member for Waterford made it perfectly clear in his speech that he regarded it as a trivial Amendment, because there was no immediate prospect of Ireland wishing or being able to reduce taxation in respect of Customs Duties. He also made it perfectly clear that he hoped to have a free hand when the financial revision came. But whether it be temporary or permanent, you still have left in the Bill a barrier between this country and Ireland a barrier to trade and an instrument for Protection in the hands of the Irish Government. It will be a hindrance and inconvenience; and it will cause to be imposed upon every man who wishes to send goods from England to Ireland an expense which is not imposed on people sending goods from Ireland to England. It is only a question of the Customs authorities making their rules sufficiently vexatious and stringent to make that a very serious cause of expense. We may be told that the Customs officers will be under the control of the United Kingdom. How do we know that? How do we know that under Clause 40 they will not by some arrangement be transferred? If they are not transferred let me put the position. As the Leader of the Opposition has shown, you have the danger of smuggling. If any smuggling successfully takes place, do you not think that you will have speech after speech and Motion after Motion in the Irish House of Commons protesting against the laxity of the Imperial Customs officers in Ireland, suggesting that they are in the pay of British industries, and insisting upon either screwing up the Imperial Customs officers in Ireland to the point which they desire or else breaking down the system altogether? "There is a further point, which I would just mention again, for no attempt has been made on the part of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to answer it. I will deal with it in a single concrete instance. If you do not give this power to change the Customs and Excise to the Irish Government, its powers to give a bounty would be limited by its resources. It might have £40,000 or £50,000 that it was willing to spend on tobacco, and this sum, while it might give valuable encouragement to tobacco growing as an experiment, would not amount to substantial and continuous perfection. But now take the powers you are conferring under this Bill. Let me suppose that the Irish Government raises the Customs and Excise on tobacco by 6d. in the £—that is to say, from 3s. 8d. to 4s. 2d. on the raw leaf. You would at once get an increase of revenue of something approximating to £200,000. On this the Irish Government, under the Ten per Cent. Rule, can keep £160,000. Take the £40,000 or £50,000 that that Government is prepared to spend already with the additional £160,000, and you have enough money to give a bounty of 1s. in the £ on 4,000,000 lbs. of tobacco —more than half the tobacco consumed in Ireland. What is the position of the Irish tobacco grower in that? He pays nominally an Excise Duty of 4s. 2d., and he receives the bounty of 1s. He does, in effect, pay an Excise Duty of 3s. 2d., while his English or foreign competitor pays a Customs Duty of 4s. 2d. He gets direct protection, without any cost to the Irish Government, or necessarily any cost to the Irish consumer, of Is. in the £. There is a further point. Supposing the Irish manufacturer, producing tobacco which enjoys a 1s. per lb. preference over his English and foreign competitors, sends his tobacco to England. That tobacco has, in fact, only paid an Excise Duty of 3s. 2d., but it is supposed to have paid 4s. 2d., and therefore it is going to get a bigger drawback. It comes to this country and gets a drawback of 6d. So that actually what is paid upon Irish tobacco coming to England is 2s. 8d., as against 3s. 8d. paid by any other tobacco coming into this country. Surely that is sufficient to disorganise the tobacco trade of this country, and to give real and effective protection to Irish tobacco! How are you going to meet that? Is there any way of meeting that condition of things except by imposing a duty in this country against this bounty-fed Irish tobacco? The right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General has already suggested that. Yet what is the point of the Amendment to prevent in Ireland the reduction of the Customs and Excise? The whole point of that Amendment is to prevent the necessity for putting up a tariff barrier in Great Britain. Here, however, by the Bill as you have it, you inevitably create conditions under which you are bound very soon to put up that tariff barrier! Once you give Ireland power over the Customs and Excise, you give quite a different meaning to the power to give bounties, to the power to establish a State monopoly, and to the power to establish trade agents. There is nothing harmful in a province having trade agents, if it is a province. The Canadian provinces have trade agents in this country, and the Australian States have trade agents in this country. Those trade agents know that their powers are limited, because they cannot speak for the Governments which are authorised to make Customs treaties; but the moment you give the Irish Government the power to vary the Customs and Excise, you turn what would otherwise be trade agents into quasi-diplomatic agents; into agents who, in fact if not in theory, will have the power to conduct commercial treaties, and deal with all commercial treaties indirectly involved. You may say it will be rather a one-sided Customs bargain if Ireland can only raise duties and not lower them. But, of course, promises not to raise duties can have their weight in the Customs bargain. Even so, there is the further point in regard to the Excise which has not been dealt with in this Debate at all. All the restrictions, by which it is intended to safeguard, to patch and plug up the leaky vessel of Free Trade, are in regard to Customs or to Excise Duties where Customs Duties are imposed. There is no provision in this Bill whatever to prevent the Irish Government imposing any sort of Excise at any rates, or with any degree of variation, on articles not subject to Customs Duties, Nothing in the Bill, so far as I can see, would prevent the Irish Government proposing an Excise on the sale of woollen goods, and of imposing it at one rate on the sale of English goods and another rate on the sale of Irish goods. That is the whole case. It is leaking. So far from having a few small gaps that may be filled, its gaps are such that you will only fill them up on one condition, and that is to reserve the power of dealing with Customs and Excise and the regulation of commerce in any shape or form to the United Kingdom. That is the whole object of this Amendment. I could have wished, Mr. Whitley, that you had allowed this Amendment on Clause 2 in order to make it quite clear that it was a fundamental part of the new constitutional system being introduced by the right hon. Gentleman, that he would never, in any circumstances, contemplate depriving the United Kingdom of these powers, which are essential, if it is to remain a United Kingdom; for even if we pass this, under this Clause there is always the suggestion latent that it may be revised. We may be opposed to the idea of a federal United Kingdom—and for my part I do not believe there is room for such a federal system—but at any rate I do regard it as infinitely preferable to a system of separatism. Hon Members opposite do, I believe, sincerely wish it, and if they do wish it, if they do not wish to damage the cause of federalism irretrievably, I submit they are in honour and conscience bound to vote for this Amendment.I shall strictly observe your recommendation, Mr. Whitley, that seeing this matter has been very largely discussed, the speeches should be brief, and I shall endeavour as far as possible not to cover the ground which has been previously traversed. Therefore it is no disrespect to the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken if I deal with what he has said as shortly as I can. His first point was that our proposal with regard to Customs and Excise runs counter to the federal idea, and that if there are any hon. Members on this side of the House who hold strongly the federal idea, whose support of Home Rule is founded on that principle, that they must necessarily vote on this occasion for this Amendment. The hon. Member has spoken to-day as he has spoken previously, and as hon. Members have spoken on many occasions, as if what we were really proposing was to give to the Irish Government complete control of her tariff policy; that we are establishing a system of fiscal autonomy, and that we are enabling Ireland to do what the States of Australia were able to do towards one another before the federation of their Commonwealth. The movement of federation in that and other parts of the world, in so far as it touches this question of Customs, was, of course, as in every case, mainly directed to the abolition of the powers of the particular States to tax the goods of their neighbours—neighbours speaking the same language, usually of the same or kindred races—for the protection of their native industries, with the result that there was constant friction in the various communities which should have formed an autonomous whole. They became under these circumstances frequently irritated with one another and possibly hostile.
It is necessary to remind the Committee once more—probably this may be the last opportunity of doing so—what precisely are the powers that we are conferring in this regard. We are conferring no powers to tax any article which is not already included in our tariff; no power to tax British goods for the protection of Irish goods; no power to discriminate between goods according to their origin and to levy a higher tax on goods coming from one part of the world than on goods coming from another pan of the world. Indeed, we have introduced an Amendment to the effect that they are to have no power to reduce the Customs Duty on goods of any kind at all. The hon. Gentleman called this a petty little Amendment, which does not by any means alter or diminish the inherent viciousness of our system, or make it in any degree less acceptable. A petty little Amendment! Yes, but we were told by the right hon and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College, that what is now described as "a petty little Amendment" was a revolution in the Bill. We were told we are changing the Bill in a vital principle which requires the whole reconsideration of our financial proposals. It is not necessary to dwell further on that inconsistency in regard to the powers conferred upon the Irish Government. These, in relation to Customs, are nothing more than that they may simply, with regard to the Beer and Spirits Customs Duty, increase them at their will; but in regard to tea, sugar, and other similar Customs Duties, they may increase them with the limit that they can have no more benefit than 10 per cent, on the increased yield of the taxes. With regard to the actual provisions, I think that any stranger listening to the hon. Gentleman's speech, who had not previously followed his controversy, would be amazed to find, after hearing all that he had to say, that we are not giving fiscal autonomy to Ireland, but are giving the power we are for purely revenue purposes, limited to the receipt of the additional revenue of 10 per cent, of the Customs Duties, except beer and spirits. I was interested to hear the hon. Gentleman, as an active leader of the Tariff Reform movement, discoursing so cogently on the inconvenience of Protection. When he gives an illustration he gives one the impression that he is living in an unreal world. Out of his own very nimble and ingenious brain he spins cobwebs which he attaches to branches of our tree, and then he points to the flimsiness of his own cobwebs as a proof to the weakness of our tree! The other day he grave as a really serious illustration what might occur under this Bill if this country was engaged in a war for the sake of a Lancashire cotton industry. He suggested that that war was made possible because in this House there were only forty-two Irish Members, whereas if there had been sixty-five Irish Members it would not have been possible. If additional taxation was levied upon Ireland for that war, he suggested that the Irish people would have a cause of complaint. To-day we have had similarly fantastical illustrations. The hon. Member to-day has suggested that the Irish Government would impose a stiff duty upon foreign tobacco going into Ireland, and use this to give a bounty to the Irish tobacco growers in order practically to compel the Irish people, if I may say so, to consume their own smoke—that is to say, to smoke tobacco grown on their own soil. It is forgotten that in all probability the Irish smoker will have something to say to this. Excellent as Irish tobacco may be in some circumstances—in many cases, no doubt—for the Irish Parliament seriously and deliberately to raise the price of all foreign tobaccos going into Ireland would mean that the Irish consumer would undoubtedly have something to say to his representative. Then he went on to give us another illustration of the Irish Parliament calmly sitting down, and in the fullness of its wisdom imposing an Excise Duty on the sale of woollen goods, an Excise Duty upon the clothes of the people at a higher rate if the clothes of the people were made in Yorkshire, and at a lower rate if they were made in some parts of Ireland. Is it really conceivable that an Irish Parliament would deliberately set to work to raise the cost of clothing on the poorest class of people in Ireland in that way?It is perfectly possible to put 1d. per yard duty on Irish woollens, and 2s. per yard on English woollens, and other countries have done the same.
I think it certainly would be ultra vires to put a higher Excise Duty than a Customs Duty.
Not Customs.
How would it be possible to put an Excise Duty on commodities according to their place of origin? You would want to have the Customs officer going round from one shop to another, saying, "Here is a piece of English goods, which must be taxed at the higher rate; and here is a piece of Irish goods, which must get the benefit of the lower rate."
The right hon. Gentleman, the Member for West Islington pointed out that you must have a Customs in order to-trace all goods coming into Ireland, and it would be perfectly easy to trace English goods to the wholesale shops.
I leave it to the Committee to decide whether or not my description of the hon. Gentleman's arguments as fantastic is not perfectly justified. On the hon. Member's supposition I could prove that the present state of things in Ireland is grossly unjust and intolerable, and must lead to inevitable friction between the two countries. The party opposite did an admirable piece of work in this House by setting up the Congested Districts Board, which has set itself in a very practical fashion to the development of the fishing industry in Ireland. I can imagine the hon. Gentleman, if we proposed such a scheme, saying, "You are-proposing to give British money to encourage Irish fishermen to make harbours and to provide additional expenses for fishing boats, and then you allow them to send their fish over here to undersell English fishermen." That is the state of things undoubtedly existing, and do hon. Members suppose that we ought to put a contravailing duty on Irish fish for the protection for the North or West fishermen. So much for the hon. Gentleman's concrete illustrations. His speeches are full of them. I do not think any one of his illustrations carries the smallest conviction to any hon. Member upon whatever side of the House he sits. They are drawn from an unreal world and not the world of practical politics, and I venture-to say that by the exercise of an ordinary modicum of common sense the Irish Parliament and the Imperial Parliament will-make good progress under the scheme such as we propose.
The right hon. Gentleman twitted my right hon. Friend upon spinning webs out of his ingenious fancy. I wonder where the right hon. Gentleman gets his conception as to the probability of Irish policy when the Irish Parliament is assembled! What groundwork is there in his view for supposing that an Irish Parliament, composed in the main of Nationalist Members, or any Irish Parliament, will hold the same pedantic views about the fiscal question which are the peculiar property of right hon. Gentlemen opposite? If there is one thing more certain than another it is that it has always been the desire of the Nationalists of Ireland and the supporters of Home Rule to be able to protect and develop Irish industries. That is one of the principles they put most prominently forward in their speeches in Ireland in order to induce other Irishmen to become Home Rulers. We know that even English Free Traders, like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Islington, frequently pointed to the Free Trade policy of this House as being responsible for disastrous consequences to Ireland. My hon. Friend has shown, and has taken a natural illustration to show, that by the power you give in the words to which he objects—that is the power to vary Customs and Excise, and to give bounties—you put it in the power of the Irish Parliament to establish an efficient system of protection, and the only question is do you want to do it, and, if you want to do it, why not say so? Do not pretend you do not want to do it or that you are not doing it when it is proved to you over and over again and you are unable to disprove that the powers you give under your Bill are quite sufficient to enable the Irish Parliament to do it if they wish to.
I regret I am unable to find in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General any argument which shows that this provision in the Bill is drawn from the world of practical politics, because there is an absence of any precedent for this provision either in dealing with this particular question of Home Rule for Ireland or dealing with any other part of the Empire. I do not think the Government have established the need for this provision. The Postmaster-General has said that to increase the Transferred Sum would not allow sufficient elasticity, but the whole sum that would be required to make good this provision, even if it lacked elasticity, would not be a large sum, and I, for one, am not prepared to oppose this power to vary Customs, which I do oppose, for reasons with which I need not trouble the House again, unless I supported at the same time the principle of adding to the Transferred Sum the amount which this provision for the varying of Customs would give if
Division No. 326.]
| AYES.
| [5.0 p.m.
|
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Ashley, Wilfrid | Banbury, Sir Frederick George |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Astor, Waldorf | Barnston, Harry |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Baird, John Lawrence | Barrie, H. T. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Balcarres, Lord | Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) |
ascertained. The argument that you cannot add to the Transferred Sum really cannot carry any weight when the sum involved is so small.
It is not small.
It is comparatively small. One could estimate, at any rate, what sum the power to vary Customs would bring in to the Irish Government, and I think it cannot amount to a very large sum.
I went into this the other day, and I think the right hon. Gentleman was not in his place. I pointed out that the yield of increased Customs Duty might amount to a very considerable sum. Would the right hon. Gentleman be willing to add to the surplus that is to be handed over to the Irish Parliament by the British taxpayer, amounting to nearly three-quarters of a million?
I doubt whether the sum will be three-quarters of a million, but I would sooner pay this three-quarters of a million than vote the power of varying Customs and Excise, which is prejudicial to the whole scheme of devolution. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman regards previous Home Rule Bills as being elastic because they did not contain these powers of varying Customs. There was no such provision before, and I think where the genius of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors succeeded, perhaps he might succeed also. In my opinion there has been no argument to show any justification for giving these powers, instead of providing Ireland with adequate money to work successfully under Home Rule. I am positive of this, that the right hon. Gentleman will find out later on that the country would rather make a subsidy, even to the extent of three-quarters of a million than allow this impossible system to be adopted to the prejudice of any further system of devolution.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 167; Noes, 303.
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Newman, John R. P. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Bird, Alfred | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Boyton, James | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bull, Sir William James | Harrison-Broadley, H, B, | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Burdett-Coutts, William | Helmsley, Viscount | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Butcher, John George | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ) | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Campion, W. R. | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hills, John Waller | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Cassel, Felix | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Castiereagh, Viscount | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stanier, Beville |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Horner, Andrew Long | Stewart, Gershom |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Chambers, James | Hunt, Rowland | Swift, Rigby |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Ingleby, Holcombe | Sykes, Alan John (Chcs., Knutsford) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Joynson-Hicks, William | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kimber, Sir Henry | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Knight, Captain E. A. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Larmor, Sir J. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lewisham, Viscount | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Croft, Henry Page | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Winterton, Earl |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Mackinder, H. J. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Macmaster, Donald | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Magnus, Sir Philip | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Fleming, Valentine | Malcolm, Ian | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Forster, Henry William | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Gardner, Ernest | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Younger, Sir George |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | |
| Goldman, C. S. | Moore, William | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Amery and Mr. Bigland. |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Bowerman, Charles W. | Crumley, Patrick |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Cullinan, John |
| Adamson, William | Brace, William | Davies, E. William (Eifion) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Brady, P. J. | Davies, Timothy (Louth) |
| Agnew, Sir George | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Bryce, J. Annan | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Dawes, J. A. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Burke, E. Haviland- | De Forest, Baron |
| Arnold, Sydney | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Delany, William |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Denman, Hon. R. D. |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Devlin, Joseph |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Dickinson, W. H. |
| Ballour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Dillon, John |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Doris, W. |
| Barnes, G. N. | Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Duffy, William J. |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick) | Clancy, John Joseph | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Barton, W. | Clough, William | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Clynes, J. R. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George) | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Bentham, G. J. | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipnerary, N.) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Cotton, William Francis | Essex, Richard Walter |
| Black, Arthur W. | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Boland, John Pius | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Falconer, J. |
| Sooth, Frederick Handel | Crooks, William | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Lynch, A A. | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Rencall, Atneistan |
| Field, William | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Ricnardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | McGhee, Richard | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Roberts. Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Macpherson, James Ian | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Gill, A. H. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Robinson, Sidney |
| Ginnell, Laurence | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Glanville, H J. | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Roche, John (Galway E.) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Rowlands, James |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Russeil, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Meagher, Michael | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Seaman, Thomas |
| Hackett, J. | Menzies, Sir Walter | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Millar, James Duncan | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Hancock, J. G. | Molloy, M. | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Molteno, Percy Auport | Sheehy, David |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Mooney, John J. | Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Morgan, George Hay | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Morison, Hector | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Snowden, Philip |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Muldoon, John | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Hayward, Evan | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, W.) |
| Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Needham, Christopher T. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Neilson, Francis | Sutton, John E. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nolan, Joseph | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Thomas, James Henry |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nuttall, Harry | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hinds, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Thorne, W. (West Ham) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Hodge, John | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hogge, James Myles | O'Doherty, Philip | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Donnell, Thomas | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Holt, Richard Durning | O'Dowd, John | Wadsworth, J. |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Grady, James | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Hughes, S. L. | O'Malley, William | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Waring, Water |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| John, Edward Thomas | O'Shee, James John | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Outhwaite, R. L. | Webb, H. |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Parker, James (Halifax) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Jowett, F. W. | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir T. P. |
| Joyce, Michael | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham | Whyte, A. F. |
| Keating, M. | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Pointer, Joseph | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Pollard, Sir George K. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| King, J. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Lambert, Richard (Cricklade) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Pringle, William M. R. | Winfrey, Richard |
| Leach, Charles | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Young, William (Perthshire, E.) |
| Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Reddy, Michael | |
| Lundon, T. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "and to impose in Ireland any independent tax not being in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax."
In proposing this Amendment I desire at once to protect myself against the charge which may possibly be made against me that I said yesterday, when, dealing with the question of the Irish Parliament the Bill was fiddling with Imperial taxes, and that while I would not so strongly object to the Irish Parliament having the power to impose independent taxes, the riddling with Imperial taxes has gone through, and now we come to these independent taxes. I should like to say at once to the Postmaster-General that if the Government meet the points which I am going to put, I may be willing to consider whether I shall press this Amendment to a Division or not. I am afraid the Solicitor-General did me an injustice yes-derday, when I did not like to interrupt him because he was being fired at by hon. Member behind him. The Solicitor-General said I complained that the powers of the Irish Parliament in this respect-were too wide, and that afterwards I complained that they were too small. I was dealing with the power to reduce taxation, which has gone, and I was arguing that the power of increasing taxation should also go. Upon this Amendment the first difficulty is the question of interpretation. It is said that all these independnet taxes which the Irish Parliament may impose must be taxes which are "in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax." These are blessed words, and they are sprinkled like salt over this Bill, to make it here and there a little more acceptable. The Joint Exchequer Board will be confronted with an almost impossible task which ought not to be left to a Board of this description, because they will have to determine whether these taxes are substantially the same in character as other taxes. Is a Property Tax substantially the same as an Income Tax, and is that a question which you are going to leave to this body of five to determine quite independently of Parliament? If they held that the Property Tax was not substantially the same in character as an Income Tax, the result might be that the whole provision to limit the powers of the Irish Parliament with regard to Income Tax would be rendered nugatory. Is a Corporation Tax substantially the same as an Income Tax? Is a business or a trading licence substantially the same as an Income Tax? The Committee will have to make tip its mind what is meant by the phrase, "substantially the same in character." Does it mean the same character from the point of view of its incidence on the taxpayer or from the point of view of the Exchequer? There is no guidance whatever to the Joint Exchequer Board as to the principle on which it ought to proceed. I will go so far as to say that there are very few independent taxes which I should not be prepared to argue either that they were or were not substantially the same in character. It is said that an appeal is to be granted to the Privy Council on this question, and I should like to have it made quite clear whether that appeal is to be granted, and this seems to be an appropriate opportunity for the Government to make a statement. If such an appeal is to be granted, I would like to ask the Attorney-General how is it to be dealt with from the point of view of the subject, and when is the subject to have his opportunity for an appeal? The important point is that the subject should have that right of appeal. On this point the answer of the Postmaster-General was that the subject can raise the question in Court. But how can he do that? Supposing the tax is imposed upon grass land, and that tax has been levied for five years, and at last another Hampden arises in the county of Clare who disputes this question before the Courts, and refuses to pay his tax. What would be the question for the Courts to decide? Not whether this is substantially the same in character as the Undeveloped Land Duty, but whether, in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, it is substantially the same in character. Will the Court have to adjourn the case in order to obtain the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, and, if so, how is the subject going to enforce his opinion before the Privy Council or the Joint Exchequer Board? Doubtless the Joint Exchequer Board will look at the matter from the point of view of the Treasury, and they will consider how much it interferes with the revenue of this or that country, rather than from the point of view of the incidence of the tax upon the subject. I do not know whether I have made my point clear or not, but it seems to me that the question might be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board in the absence of the subject without him having any opportunity of being represented either through counsel or personally. We know that in one case recently there was a case in which the subject appeared personally and successfully advocated his case. Is the case to be decided against the subject beforehand, without any opportunity of disputing the facts? How is he to get an appeal to the Privy Council? Those are the points upon which I should like to have some clear and definite explanation, because the Bill, to nay mind, from the point of view of the subject, is useless unless the subject has the right to exercise his right before the Joint Exchequer Board has pre-decided this question. The vitally important point you have to decide is what "substantially the same in character" means from the point of view of the Exchequer or from the point of view of the subject. It is a very grave matter, because in reference to almost every independent tax you choose to name I think I could give you some very cogent arguments either way. The Government so far as indirect taxes are concerned, in theory at any rate, have attempted to exclude Protection. I do not say whether they are right or wrong in that. They have made the attempt, but I do not think they have made it successfully, although they think they have stopped up all the loopholes against Protection. Personally I do not think they have, but for argument's sake I will assume they have excluded discrimination. In the name of common sense what reason can there be when you adopt that line to allow these other independent taxes to be as protective and as discriminative as any Irish Parliament may choose to make them. Can they or can they not make them protective or discriminative? What about a duty upon commercial travellers' samples, or a duty upon advertisements? Probably the Postmaster-General will get up and say that I am not living in a world of reality, that I am spinning cobwebs out of a non-ingenious brain, and that these are on the branches of his tree. I venture to put it to the right hon. Gentleman that I am discovering weevils in his rotten tree. Here you have a real case, because I could name instances in our own Colonies where such duties have been imposed. There have been duties imposed on commercial travellers' samples and advertisements, and trading licences have been granted. The right hon. Gentleman seems to think it is outside the world of reality to impose trading licences or duties upon the sale of foreign commodities. I should recommend him to study the history of taxation; I should like to ask if either of the Law Officers of the Crown are prepared to say that it would not be competent for the Irish Parliament to impose a duty upon commercial travellers' samples or to make it a necessity to take out a trading licence to sell articles of foreign manufacture in that country. If they take refuge in Clause 2, Sub-section (7), I propose to answer that in advance. If they rely upon the words:I would call their attention to the words in brackets"Trade with any place out of Ireland"
That is expressly expected. It is trade with any place out of Ireland except so far as trade may be affected by the exercise of the powers of taxation given to the Irish Parliament. If they imposed a duty upon commercial travellers' samples coming into Ireland from Lancashire, or any other part of England, or upon advertisements for the sale of English goods in Ireland, it is true it might be with reference to trade with a place outside of Ireland, but still it would be in the exercise of the powers of taxation given to the Irish Parliament. I venture to submit with some confidence that upon the true construction of this Bill there would be ample power given to the Irish Parliament to impose not only duties upon commercial travellers' samples and foreign advertisements, but also upon the sale in Ireland of articles manufactured abroad, which also is not a thing outside the world of reality as the right hon. Gentleman seems to suppose. There would be ample power to do all those things. I will give the right hon. Gentleman another case, not drawn from the world of unreality, and not one of those cobwebs which the right hon. Gentleman imagines I am spinning, but drawn from actual fact, given to me by persons who are apprehensive of it actually occurring. It has reference to insurance companies and companies of that-character now doing business in Ireland. Would there be anything to prevent the Irish Parliament imposing a special tax upon the branch of a foreign insurance company doing business in Ireland? I should like to have an answer from one of the Law Officers of the Crown to that question. My interpretation is that there is absolutely nothing in this Bill from start to finish to prevent it. You may take one theory or the other. You may say, "We are granting a Parliament to Ireland, and therefore we will trust them and allow them to protect and discriminate as much as they like." That is an intelligent view, but, if that is your view, why all these precautions to endeavour to stop discrimination with regard to indirect duties? It is inconsistency of that character I should like to have explained. If the Irish Parliament are going to have the power of independent taxation, it is absolutely monstrous that the English taxpayer should be called upon to pay the cost of collection. Again, I will draw my example, not from that region of fancy where cobwebs are spun, but from one of the most recent experiences of the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. This afternoon I obtained an answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that in the third year of their incidence, the three Land Taxes together, the Increment Value Duty, the Reversion Duty, and the Undeveloped Land Duty, produced in Ireland the magnificent grand total of £157. It would not be sufficient to pay the travelling expenses he allowed two Members of Parliament. When I asked the right hon. Gentleman the cost of collecting that £157 he showed the most surprising reticence and coyness. He referred me to answers which he had given to other Members which again referred to further answers, and in none of them can we find any real answer as to what this £157 cost in collecting.("except so far as trade may be affected by the exercise of the powers of taxation given to the Irish Parliament.…")
The Irish pay the cost of collection.
I accept the right hon. Gentleman as an authority on all fiscal questions, but I am not quite sure I accept him as an equal authority on the question of legal interpretation, and, with all deference to the opinion expressed by him, it appears to me the Imperial Parliament would have to bear the cost of collecting these taxes. If I hear to the contrary from the Law Officers, it will surprise me very much.
The cost of collection would increase the amount of the deficit, which the Irish Parliament has to get rid of, and in that sense it is an Irish charge, just the same as old ago pensions and everything else which is reserved.
Those who imagine the time is near when the deficit is going to be got rid of may attach some weight to that, but we who do not think so do not attach very much weight to it. I put it, there cannot be any possible defence for imposing on the British taxpayer the cost of collecting any freak taxation which an Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer may choose to impose. He, from his point of view, will not care one iota what it costs. The question whether the deficiency is going to be wiped out by this extra amount or not is one which may come twenty years hence, but it will not come in our generation, and it is the taxpayer of the present day who is being unjustly treated. I would invite the right hon. Gentleman to leave the realm of fancy in which his imagination is now flitting about and to come to the ordinary case where a man has to collect a debt. Supposing somebody owes me a debt and I ask a solicitor to collect it for me, the solicitor does not pay the cost of collection, but I who receive the money. In the case of the Irish Parliament the right hon. Gentleman reverses the process and makes the British Parliament, which has to do the collecting, pay for the cost of collection. This cost of collection will involve very heavy litigation, and the cost of fighting all these cases up to the Privy Council will be borne by the British taxpayer. The question whether a Corporation Tax is of the same character as the Income Tax will have to be fought by the British taxpayer right up to the Privy Council, whilst the Irish taxpayer will get any proceeds resulting from that litigation. I submit that is a perfectly absurd conclusion. The three points upon which I invite the attention of the Government are: First, the question of interpretation; secondly, the question of protection and discrimination with regard to the independent taxes; and, thirdly, the question of the cost of collection.
I will leave my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General to reply to certain legal questions which the hon. and learned Member has raised. Let me answer two or three of his other points. I should like, in the first place, to say I should be the last man to suggest the hon. and learned Member has woven anything whether of substance or not out of a non-ingenious brain, for sitting here now for several weeks and listening to his many speeches on the subjects of Irish finance and the Home Rule Bill, I am filled with admiration, if I may respectfully say so, of the ingenuity and the skill with which he endeavours to pick a hole in that which we regard as stubborn and closely woven material, to use another metaphor. The hon. and learned Member has raised to-day two or three points of very considerable substance. He said we are giving to the Irish Parliament the power to devise and levy new taxes so long as they are not substantially the same as Imperial taxes, and that is not a practicable provision. It may be well, in the first place, to point out to the Committee the reason why this restriction is made. The financial scheme of the Bill is based on the proposal that the normal and natural increases of Imperial taxes should flow into the Imperial Exchequer with a view of paying off the deficiency; but as soon as that provision was inserted in the Bill it naturally occurred to us that if the Irish Parliament had power to repeal taxes—and we thought it very desirable—they should do it at their own expense. They might conceivably repeal an Imperial tax which was productive and increasing in its yield and substitute for it another tax under another name, but substantially the same in effect, and the increase of which would go into their own Exchequer instead of into the Imperial Exchequer. We thought that danger was not a very real one, but still it would have been a defect in the scheme if no provision had been made against the possibility. That is the source of and the reason for this part of the Bill which provides that these taxes shall not be substantially the same. The hon. Member puts a number of ingenious conundrums or cases which might arise as to whether particular things are substantially the same.
On a construction of the Act?
I do not know that you can lay down any principle of construction. It must necessarily depend upon the merits of the case. If there was any principle which could divide the two categories of taxes, we could undoubtedly insert it in the Bill.
Is it from the point of view of the taxpayer or from the point of view of the Treasury that this has been inserted?
I do not know that the points of view are necessarily different. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I do not think they are necessarily different. The tax is either substantially the same or it is not. If it is substantially the same in character, then the Treasury and the subject will both be affected by the fact of its identity. It is because it will be necessary, if these cases arise, to deal with them upon their merits that you must have some authority charged with the function of discrimination. The hon. and learned Member suggests that because there is a problem which will have to be solved by the Joint Exchequer Board that problem is therefore insoluble.
The right hon. Gentleman is not correctly interpreting me. I suggested that if there was a difficult problem of this character it ought to be made certain the subject has a right of appeal before the case is prejudiced against him.
The hon. and learned Member also dwelt upon what he thought was the difficulty which would arise, apart from this question of appeal by the subject, in actually determining any of these cases upon their merits, and he left the impression upon the Committee that because there were possible difficult questions to be dealt with the scheme was therefore in itself impracticable. It is precisely because questions of some difficulty may arise that we have established a body of a more or less authoritative character like the Joint Exchequer Board to deal with those particular points on the merits of each case as it arises. Then the hon. and learned Members says, "Yes, but if the Irish Parliament might take other action afterwards, and the Joint Exchequer Board might raise difficulties." I think that, in practice, in all probability—of course, one cannot speak with certainty on a point which must necessarily arise in the future—but in practice the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer, before he proceeds with legislation of this kind—
My point was that it would be decided beforehand.
The hon. Member is continually leading me off the one point. The question, whether or not the scheme is in itself practicable, is the question to which I am addressing myself, and I suggest that in practice what will occur will be that the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will go to the Exchequer Board and get their opinion. The hon. Member has asked as to the appeal to the Privy Council, but I would point out that these questions cannot be considered by themselves; they must be considered in conjunction with the general question. It is proposed to amend Cause 29 by adding the following words:—
"The Lord Lieutenant or the Secretary of State may refer to His Majesty in Council for review the decision of the Joint Board on any question whether any independent tax imposed in Ireland by the Irish Parlaiment, is substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax. Upon the hearing of the question such persons as seem to the Judicial Committee to be interested may be allowed to appear and to be heard as parties to the appeal." That is the procedure which, as at present advised, it is contemplated to adopt. Then the hon. and learned Member's second point was with respect to the cost of collection. He says that giving this power to the Irish Parliament to raise new taxes may involve the Imperial Exchequer in a large expenditure. Several hon. Members have criticised the Bill on this particular point, but Irish taxes in the main will be collected by the same officers as collect the present taxes. There may be exceptional cases, but, as a rule, the Irish taxes will be small in amount and merely an addition to Imperial taxes, and naturally they will be collected by the officers who collect the Imperial taxes. It would obviously be a most uneconomical thing to set up a new staff of tax collectors throughout Ireland for the purpose of collecting what may be quite small duties, and many of them mere percentage additions to existing duties! If there is to be only one staff of collectors it will necessarily be an Imperial and not an Irish staff. Then there comes a question whether it is worth while to assess the cost of collection of Irish taxes and to charge the Irish Government with that Amount. In framing an Act of Parliament like this one has to consider the probabilities and possible inconveniences. It would be an extremely complicated matter of accounting to determine. For example, supposing the Irish Parliament fixed the Tea Duty at 5½d. instead of 5d., it would complicate the matter and there would have to be a calculation by the Exchequer as to the cost of collecting the extra ½d. Similarly it would have to have determined how much cost would be thrown on the Exchequer by an increase in the Beer Duty, and probably it would not be worth while working that out. It would involve, if you are to work it out with any approach to exactitude, a large amount of trouble which would be scarcely compensated by the result obtained. Furthermore, there is this other reason. The control of the tax-collecting system will be not in the Irish Parliament, but if the Irish, however, are to be made to pay the cost of collecting the Irish additions to an Imperial tax they will be asked to pay for a service over which they have no control. It will not be for them to say, What are to be the number of the officers or their salaries? That will be vested in the Board of Customs and Excise and the Board of Inland Revenue in England.Is it the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman and of the Government that there will not be a possibility under Clause 14 of the transfer of this from the English to the Irish Government?
There will be no such transfer, actually or technically, within the terms of the Bill, but it might be possible for the Government to transfer the work to the Irish Parliament. There is no such measure in prospect or contemplated to charge the cost of collection to the Irish Parliament. There remains this point with regard to the cost of collection, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Islington has pointed out, that, after all, is a matter of book-keeping. If the cost of collection goes up it will be an Irish charge and to that extent the Irish Government will have an inducement not to lay an excessive charge on the Imperial Government. I cannot admit that the taxes will be in any way protective. I do not know any case in any country in the world in which a tax is imposed on travellers' samples except by Customs Duty. If such a tax were imposed it would possibly be disallowed as being contrary to the plain intention of the Bill. As to the Excise Duty on commercial travellers' samples, is it likely that such a tax would be imposed? Naturally we want to offer the utmost possible inducement to encourage, to the greatest extent within our power, commerce between the two countries. It is not likely that the Irish Government would tax commercial travellers' samples from Lancashire, seeing that almost the whole of their trade is with Great Britain.
But you admit that there is the power to do so.
I have not considered that. I should not like to answer that question without notice. It is the first time the point has been raised. Lastly, let me point this out to the Committee. The Irish Parliament is to have no power to vary any Imperial tax. On that basis this House has passed the Second Reading of the Bill. I suggest that the position is impossible in this respect. As was pointed out by the hon. Member for South Birmingham, there is no federation in the world where constituent States have power to vary the Customs. We propose nothing of the kind, and, for this reason, I trust the Committee will not accept this Amendment.
The answer of the right hon. Gentleman is really most remarkable. Let me take three of his points. The first question which was put by my hon. Friend was, Is it not possible that a protective duty may be imposed by the Irish Parliament? Is it not possible that the Irish Parliament may put on taxation which will have a protective effect? The reply of the Postmaster-General was, "I do not know, I have not thought it out." That, I submit, is a most remarkable position.
It had relation only to commercial travellers' samples.
It has not been suggested that this is a tax which is actually in existence.
An Excise tax.
The tax which is to be imposed is to be an independent tax, and it seems to me perfectly clear that the Irish Parliament would have power to impose it as an Excise Duty.
I should like the hon. Member to refer mc to any authority with regard to the imposition of an Excise Duty on foreign commercial travellers' samples.
I am quite prepared to admit there may not be such a case, but it will be possible to impose such a duty under this Bill. I do not know, neither does the right hon. Gentleman know, what may occur, but it is possible such a duty might be levied. I understand it is not provided against.
It is a question of machinery.
That is not the concern of the Irish Parliament. That touches the second point to which I am coming. The Irish Parliament have not to trouble themselves with the machinery by which a tax is to be levied. All they have to say is that a tax shall be levied, and they turn to the Imperial Parliament and say, "You must provide the machinery for it." The second point of the right hon. Gentleman was the question of the cost of collection. My hon. and learned Friend pointed-out the very great objection which has always been taken to these powers from this side of the Committee, because the Irish Parliament might invent any kind of freak taxation, which is only going to bring in the smallest amount of revenue, while the British taxpayer will have to bear the cost of its collection. The Postmaster-General says that it is not likely that the cost of collection would be very large. He said not one single word about the instance my hon. Friend suggested, in which that cost of collection might be sollen by the fact that the Irish Parliament might have to enter into a long course of litigation in connection with the tax. I do not suppose the right hon. Gentleman will say that is impossible, because there have been cases even within living memory in which Governments have had to enter into protracted litigation in connection with taxes. Does he suggest that that is not likely to occur under the powers given to the Irish Parliament?
I cannot see why, if you are apportioning the cost of the Joint Exchequer Board between the British and the Irish Parliaments, you should refuse to apportion the cost of collection of taxes between those Parliaments. What was the right hon. Gentleman's justification for his refusal? He gave two reasons. In the first place, that it is difficult to get a precise determination; and, secondly, that the Irish Government will have no control over the appointment of officials. As to the first point, will it really be so difficult to precisely determine the cost of collection, within reasonable limits, of the Irish taxes? It may be difficult, but it will not be half so difficult as to determine what share of the taxes belongs to the Irish Government. You set up this Board and lay upon it the most difficult duty of determining what share of the proceeds of a tax should properly be allotted to the Irish Exchequer, and yet you say, in the same breath, that it is impossible to determine what share of the cost of collection ought to fall on the Irish Exchequer. I say that if you can do the one thing you can do the other. As to the second suggestion, that it will be inadvisable to charge any of the cost of collection to the Irish Exchequer, because the Irish Parliament will have no control over the officers who are to collect the taxes, that opens up a most interesting vista of possibilities. Is it true that the Irish Government will have no say as regards the number of officials to be appointed to collect any tax Supposing the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer puts a tax upon the land held by graziers in Ireland. Is it suggested by the Government that he will have no voice at all as to the number of officials to be appointed to supervise the collection of that tax? If that is so, do not the Government think that there are possibiliics of the greatest friction there. Suppose the tax is not remunerative. Suppose the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks it is not remunerative enough. He turns to the British Government and says, "It would be all right if only you gave me more officials to collect it." Can it be suggested that he will have no voice in determining the machinery of collection? Of course he will have a voice. He will suggest what he wants to the Imperial Parliament, and they will have to give it to him, and the Imperial Taxpayers will have to pay for it. As to the third point, that any increase in the cost of collection will swell the deficit and so postpone the end of the deficit period, and the period of revision, that is quite true. The Postmaster-General and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough) are in a hurry to see the end of that period. I do not believe that the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will be in any great hurry to arrive at the end of the deficit period. The end of that period means a state of affairs when contributions will be expected and demanded from Ireland towards Imperial expenditure, and I do not think the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will be in a hurry to arrive at the end of that period. I do not think we shall ever see the end of it, and I think the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will Take care that the accounts never do balance, or, if they do balance at the end of two years, he will see that they do not balance in the third year. I turn to the question of the substantial identity of the taxes. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has fully appreciated the point made by my hon. and learned Friend. The point really is this: When is the determination to be made as to whether a tax is substantially the same or is different? The right hon. Gentleman's answer to that is, that no doubt, the Chancellor of Exchequer in Ireland will consult the Joint Exchequer Board before he brings in his taxes, and get their opinion. The Committee will remember that under Clause 10 no Vote or Grant of public money, and no Appropriation Bill, can be passed by the Irish Parliament except in pursuance of the recommendation from the Lord Lieutenant. Had it been possible to discuss that Clause—I only pause to observe that that Clause, a most important Financial Clause, has never received a word of discussion—some of my hon. Friends were prepared to propose that Bills imposing taxation should be subject to the same restriction, namely, that they should also have to proceed upon a recommendation from the Lord Lieutenant. Had that been done the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman as to consulting with the Joint Exchequer Board could have been carried out, and a certificate could have been obtained from: the Lord Lieutenant. The right hon. Gentleman does not appreciate the serious objection to consulting the Joint Exchequer Board. If the Joint Exchequer Board say that the tax is substantially the same, and it is not brought forward, that is all right. If, on the other hand, they say the tax is not substantially the same, and the taxing Bill can go on, then the subject in Ireland may be liable to be taxed under a Bill on which the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board has been obtained, and after an inquiry at which the subject has had no chance of being represented. It is suggested that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Ireland should go privately, or semi-officially to the Board before he brings in his Bill, and should ask for our opinion on the proposed tax. That is all right, so far as the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Irish Government are concerned, but the subject is never represented at that inquiry, and never gets a chance of stating his views. If he had, he might have boon able to convince the Joint Exchequer Board that the tax ought not to be imposed. That is the difficulty the Government are in. They say it will be possible later on for the subject to bring the matter to determination in the Law Courts. I confess I do not think that that is so, even under the Amendment the Government has suggested. If I apprehend the Postmaster-General aright, his suggestion is, under Clause 22 or Clause 29, that the Lord Lieutenant or a Secretary of State is to be empowered to go to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for a determination as to the rights or wrongs of the proceedings of the Joint Exchequer Board in determining the question of independent taxation. But who is to move the Lord Lieutenant? Quis custodiet upsos custodes? Where does the subject come in? There is no power to the subject to set the machinery in motion. The right hon. Gentleman has not completely answered the arguments of my hon. and learned Friend, and I hope that possibly the Attorney-General may be able to give some further explanation of the points which have been raised, which, I think, he will agree are substantial points.The Postmaster-General seems to think he has put my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Cassel) in the hollow of a cleft-stick. That may or may not be the case. There are no cobwebs about this question, and taxpayers in Ireland will be grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for raising this question. There is no doubt that the Irish Parliament, if ever it is set up on College Green, will have to raise money. How is the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer going to raise it? I submit he will not get money from the centimes additionnels—from the extra taxes on tea, coffee, tobacco, and sugar coming into Ireland. If he puts a swingeing tax on Messrs. Murphy's stout and Jameson's whisky his life will not be worth a moment's purchase. If he wants an extra tax he has got to get it from the one thing Ireland has to tax—that is the land. There are no cobwebs about that. Once this miserable set of Financial Clauses is passed, it becomes merely a question how the money is to be raised— in what way the tax is to be put on the land, and on whom it is to be put. I do not suppose there is very much doubt as to who the first victims will be. I should like to ask the Attorney-General if he thinks that the tax I have suggested would be substantially the same as the taxes already proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer over here? The first individuals to be taxed will be the landlords, the ex-landlords, and those men who own or farm a certain amount of land who are known as graziers. Supposing we had a Super-tax of 6d. in the £ put on the rents, as collected., of the Irish landlord, would that be a tax substantially the same as the taxes already levied by the Chancellor of the Exchequer over here? It would be a popular tax and an easy tax to collect. It would be put on as an incentive to the landlords to sell their land for what price they could get. Take another tax, which would be very popular, a tax of 1d. in the £ on the capital value of farms at £500 valuation and upwards. How would that work out? Take a man who farms or grazes a farm of £500 valuation. A 1d. in the £ on the capital value of that land would work out at £52 per annum. It would be a popular tax, a substantial tax, and a tax easy to collect. Would that be within the competence of the Irish Parliament?
6.0 P.M. What engines of oppression those two taxes would be. It would not take very long for the landlords, the ex-landlords, who still live on their own demesne lands, and the unfortunate gentlemen called graziers to be taxed out of existence. The proceeds of the tax would go downwards, and the next person to be taxed would be the man with a small farm. Take a farm worth £20 a year. A penny in the £ on the capital value of that land means £2 1s. 8d. a year, in addition to the annuity he is paying to the British Government or to the landlord. It is a very good thing that the Excise officer who is to collect these taxes is going to be an Imperial officer. He wants to be a stout, brave man from England and a very well paid man. If he was an ordinary man who went round to collect the tax from the unfortunate owner he would not be alive very long. I should like to know if these are the sort of taxes which the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer can put on, and I should like to ask hon. Gentlemen from Ireland if these are the sort of taxes they are going to put on. Are they the sort of taxes they have in their mind to raise money to run Ireland with? We are told the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to go along and consult the Joint Exchequer Board as to whether or not the taxes would be legal. Can we imagine the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) running along to the Joint Exchequer Board and asking them if they will give him leave to put 1d. in the £ on the capital value of graziers' land or 6d. in the £ on the rents collected by Irish landlords? Certainly not. The hon. Member, if he were Chancellor of the Exchequer, would clap on the taxes and risk the general Exchequer Board. That is perfectly certain. Are these taxes competent—1d. in the £ and a 6d. Super-tax on the rents collected by Irish landlords; and if any financier below the Gangway would tell us whether or not they are going to tax land in this way I shall be grateful.
I listened very carefully yesterday to the arguments from the Radical benches with regard to those powers of taxation to be allowed to the Nationalist Parliament, and all their arguments were that Ireland was really living the life of a rich man, and that it would suit her far better to depart from the high standard set by the rest of the United Kingdom, and cut her expenses and cut her method of living on quite a different scale. Now we hear exactly the same argument used or implied to-day. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lough) last night drew a pathetic picture on this very subject. He spoke very strongly against the Government on this point. Of course, he did not vote against the Government, but he certainly made the strongest possible speech against the Government, and it was all on the point that Irleand really did not require nearly so much money as was spent upon her, and that she ought to live the life of a poor relation and not for a moment strive to keep up the excellent standard which is set by the Imperial Parliament. That being so I cannot see why hon. Members opposite do not accept this Amendment at once and say it cuts out the possibility of the Nationalist party ever raising any more taxation on their own. They will not require to raise any taxation on their own because all hon. Members on that side are convinced that this Bill, if passed through, would allow Ireland to go backward instead of forward in the march of civilisation and the march of economic development.
I listened to the explanation of the Postmaster-General and he failed to deal with two or three very important questions. Surely if the Bill is to be thrust, as the Government threaten, upon an unwilling people, those people are entitled to have some indication of the class of taxation to which they will be subjected in future. There is not a farmer in Clare or Kerry who does not want to know whether under Home Rule his lands will be still further taxed, and according to this Clause, without the Amendment, apparently the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the hypothetical Parliament to be established in Dublin will have the power of taxing to any extent, irrespective of the real benefit of the country, and of course we in the North of Ireland have always stated that injudicious taxation of say, the linen industry would be fatal to the whole prosperity of the northern counties. I am quite sure that not one hon. Gentleman on the other side has the faintest idea of the ruin which would stare thousands upon thousands in the face if some protection was not put in against tampering with that industry which it has taken so many generations to build up. I know threats have already been made in Nationalist papers in Ireland that if they get Home Rule, one of the very first industries to be attacked is to be the great linen industry of the North of Ireland. Hon. Members say one thing in the House and another out of the House and, after all, the organs of Nationalist opinion in Ireland very often override the Nationalist party themselves and they have to voice the sentiments which are put before them by those who are stronger than themselves outside the House. That is one of the most serious positions which we would have to face in Ireland—the power of allowing the Nationalists, at random, for spite, such as they have shown in the past, to levy any tax on an industry which, as I say, has been built up in the North of Ireland after generations of hard work on the part of the people. Does not the Attorney-General himself fear the natural result of this class of legislation? Another person, I am perfectly certain, who would also, unless this Amendment is accepted, be bound to be taxed is the foreign commercial traveller. We have already in Ireland societies who go round the country circulating the names of certain firms which only are to be dealt with. That is to say, a most persistent boycott is in existence against all northern firms, or those who refuse to cave in to the domination of the Ancient Order of Hibernians and other secret societies. I exhibited in this House a list for the Chief Secretary to examine for himself. Does anyone doubt that if it suited the Nationalist party to boycott English goods they could easily do it by clapping a tax on the commercial traveller and another tax of some sort on his samples? No one denies that for a moment. In Nationalist quarters in Ireland England stands as a foreign country. There is no such thing as talking about England being their best friend or anything of that sort. I cannot use the language in the House, but it is the Saxon, the foreigner—"Get rid of foreign rule out of Ireland," and so forth. Therefore you are immediately face to face with the fact that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Nationalist Parliament wished to get up or take advantage of the strong anti-Saxon agitation, it would be possible to cripple any English industry in Ireland that they desire to cripple. Another point would be with regard to the agencies or branches of large firms which have their headquarters in England. There is hardly a responsible, respectable insurance company in London or in Scotland that has not got its branches dotted all over Ireland, and these people are doing an enormous amount of business for the simple reason that they have in their employment English and Scotch clerks, who never give away any of the secrets of the firm and who do not allow it to be known what families in the districts have small annuities and so on, and the consequence is that you find, for the same reason, that the northern banks in Ireland have their large connections throughout the South and West because the staff clerks will not be intimidated by the local branches of the various leagues, and therefore the local people are quite content to come in and place their deposits in their safekeeping in preference to a purely national-run bank in Ireland, where we all know, from time to time, information is given to the heads of those leagues, for the very purpose of ascertaining who in the district have deposits that they can bring pressure to bear upon to get subscriptions to keep their concerns going. The large insurance companies do a fine business throughout Ireland for that very reason, and under this Clause, unless the Amendment is accepted, it would be possible for the Nationalist Parliament to put vexatious taxation on these various insurance companies and other large concerns which do such a big business in Ireland. That would be most regrettable. If there is one thing we ought to try to do in framing any measures, it is to prevent one section of the country exhibiting in any way its vindictive feeling by putting oppressive or vexatious taxes against the mother country, and therefore these particular points deserve the very closest attention of the Government. If there was any guarantee whatever that there was the slightest chance of business men running this new Parliament in Dublin, the right hon. Gentleman would probably be able to give an assurance that he would consult these business men, and would be able to make some sort of statement which would reassure people like my hon. Friend (Mr. Newman). People living in distant parts of the South and West would be, at all events, reassured if there was the slightest chance, as I say, of business methods being employed. But in every branch of Nationalist life in Ireland, you find an absolute want of business knowledge and business responsibility, and therefore, not only through vindictiveness, but also through ignorance, you are bound under these financial parts of the Bill to come to irreparable disaster.I wish to put to the Attorney-General one or two questions which arise upon this extraordinary provision—I do not suppose in any other Constitution in the world there is a provision like it with reference to the raising of taxation. I am not going into the question of whether it is right or wrong to give to the Irish Parliament a power of taxation. If the South and West of Ireland think it is a great benefit that they should have a body in Dublin which is able to put additional taxes on them in addition to the taxes put by this Imperial Parliament—if they think that is some thing worth having Home Rule for, I suppose, as we are in Committee upon the Home Rule Bill, we must leave them to enjoy the contemplation of that and say it is something which naturally arises from the setting up of the Parliament in Dublin. Indeed, up to the present, I have not heard it suggested by anyone on either side what single benefit Ireland is going to get except this double system of taxation which you are setting up under this Bill. What I have risen for is to try and find out what the Clause is supposed to mean, because I do not suppose you would find anything in the Bill to assist you in interpreting this Clause. You create a Parliament in the country, and then you say to that Parliament that it is to be able to impose taxation in that country so long as it is an independent tax—whatever that means—
"not being in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax….." Could there be anything more extraordinary than such a provision as that? It is not a provision that the Irish Parliament may tax anything in Ireland so far as it is beneficial in their opinion for the Irish people. It is nothing of that kind at all. It is not the Irish Parliament which is to-judge whether the tax is a beneficial one, even although it is only to be levied in Ireland, but an outside body called the Joint Exchequer Board is to decide. Could you have anything more ridiculous? The Irish Parliament must first submit to the Joint Exchequer Board the request, "Are we, the Irish Parliament, entitled, in your opinion, to set up a tax that we think is necessary for the benefit of the country, for purpose of social reform?" or whatever may be the other reasons for which the Irish Parliament would impose the tax. Does the right hon. Gentleman really think that a system of that kind could have any possible duration if it is to be set up in relation to what is to be in reality a Parliament? The Postmaster-General told us that the matter does not end there. When you have taken the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board he told us, I think, that before an Act of Parliament was brought in at all the Chancellor of the Exchequer would go to this Joint Exchequer Board and ask their opinion upon the question whether he would be right in bringing in the Bill. That would be the preliminary step to bringing in a Bill in the Irish House of Commons. I take it, that is so. Then look at the question which the Joint Exchequer Board have to determine. They have to determine whether in their opinion the tax is the same in character as an Imperial tax. That seems to me one of the most difficult, if not one of the most important, questions that could possibly be put before any Board. I will deal with that in a moment, for no explanation has been given of what the nature of the tax might be. The Chancellor of the Exchequer having gone to the Joint Exchequer Board and having put this question before them, certain parties are to be represented before they decide whether he is entitled to bring in his Bill, but the matter does not rest there. When the Board have given their opinion an application can be made by any party interested to come over here to England to the Privy Council, who will have power then to go into the matter. I would ask the Attorney-General what matter are they to go into? As I understand the Bill as at present drawn, the entire matter lies with the Exchequer Board. It is their opinion, and their opinion alone, which is to regulate the matter, and. if they give their opinion, what is the Privy Council going to inquire into over here? Is it going to inquire into whether the decision of the Exchequer Board is right, or are they to inquire into the question whether the Exchequer Board were of that opinion? The Attorney-General knows the difficulty of this class of question, but, so far as I can see, once you leave it to the opinion of the Exchequer Board, to give an appeal to the Privy Council is really nugatory, unless you are going to impute something like dishonesty to the Exchequer Board and say that this is not really their opinion, and that they could not have come to this opinion at all. What I wish to ask the Attorney-General is, What will be the respective functions of the Exchequer Board and the Privy Council by way of appeal when the matter comes over here? There is behind that, of course, the important question of all, namely. What is a tax substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax? We have had no illustrations of that. Several questions have been asked in regard to the matter, and no answer has been given. I should like the Attorney-General or somebody to indicate to us what kind of taxes would be and what kind would not be substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax. I would like to put one or two specific cases to the Attorney-General. Suppose, for instance, that the Irish Parliament were to pass a Bill that there was to be an extra tax upon the profits of, say, the linen trade in the North of Ireland, would that be substantially the same as the Imperial Income Tax? That would be taxing the profits of a particular trade. Would that be a tax which the Irish Parliament might impose, or would that be substantially the same as the Income Tax, because the linen trade would have already paid the Imperial Tax upon its profits? I take the linen trade, but, of course, it would be the same as regards any other business. You might take the distilling business, or the brewing business, or whatever other industries you might find in Ireland, or indeed you might take as ray hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Craig) said, the question of the land. Would rents be treated as an additional tax on the head rents? For instance, the Imperial tax would be raised as Income Tax on farming profits, and, if so, would an additional tax, being in the nature of Income Tax, be substantially the same in character as Income Tax imposed by the Imperial Parliament? That question must necessarily arise. It has arisen already in this country. Take the question of the Mineral Rights Duty which would be imposed as an extra Income Tax upon mineral rights under the Budget. It was pointed out over and over again tint it was nothing more than an Income Tax upon the produce of those mineral rights. If that is an extra duty under the Budget in relation to mineral rights, is that substantially the same in character as the Imperial tax upon income, and if not, what is the difference and what is the principle on which we are going to leave the whole of this matter at large, not to the Parliament in Ireland, but to the Exchequer Board, for their opinion—a Board which is to have power to regulate not only the Irish House of Commons, but to regulate also and to over-rule apparently this House of Commons? I suppose the Government have some conception in their mind of what kind of taxes could be set up, and I would ask the Attorney-General to tell us if there is any principle which can be or will be laid down in this Bill as the dividing line as to what is a tax substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax. I do not go into the question of the power of the Irish Parliament to raise taxes. What I should like to point out is that in every line, as we go on by these provisions and by the reference of these matters to tribunals, you are really laying the foundations of long and protracted litigation which can lead to nothing but friction as between the two parties.Perhaps the Attorney-General will allow me to ask a question which he could answer in the course of his speech in order that we may understand the position of the Joint Exchequer Board in deciding as to any tax submitted to it. May I ask whether the Irish Treasury and the British Treasury, who will each appoint two Members, are to appoint them from the Treasury itself or from outsiders?
In answer to the question of the hon. Member for Gravesend, I would point out that there is nothing in the Bill to limit the choice of the Treasury as to the persons they would think proper to select both here and in Ireland. The main question which has been discussed on this Amendment was, I think, put by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson) in the observations he made just now. As I understand the first objection raised was: that this matter, as to whether or not an independent tax is a tax which is substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax, is left to the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board; that there is no sufficient means of reviewing their deci- sion, and that consequently subjects would be bound by the decision of the Board. It is to that matter, no doubt, that a great deal of criticism has been directed both on this occasion and in preceding Debates. What was said certainly on two occasions in my hearing—I said it myself once—was that we did intend to give some appeal from the decision of the Joint Exchequer Board. My right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General read to the Committee today, not the Amendment we are putting down, but at any rate a suggestion with reference to it. It was not intended to be anything more than that, for undoubtedly points of considerable difficulty are raised. As the result of the discussion we had recently we have been considering the matter, and I am sure hon. Members will recognise that it is one which has to be reviewed with some care, and particularly when you are desiring by the Amendment to give an appeal which will be open to the subject. What is intended is not to confine the appeal merely to a Secretary of State or to the Lord Lieutenant; but we do intend that the appeal should be one of which the subject can avail himself, so that he would be entitled to raise this precise question if he desires to do so; and we have now to determine how that is to be done, and how the subject is to get to the Privy Council. I have stated quite clearly what the intention of the Government is in the matter, namely, that the subject should have in some form or the other the right to get to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, so that the Committee may review the decision of the Joint Exchequer Board. Under the suggested Amendment, as it stands at present, the initiative is in the Lord Lieutenant or a Secretary of State, who might refer this matter to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for their decision, and when once that is done no further question upon it could arise. That is to say, if this question has been referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and the Judicial Committee has expressed its opinion upon it, and I will assume, for argument, that it agrees with the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, then it is useless for the subject, or any one else, to carry this question to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It differs from the ordinary case in which the subject is interested in this, that there is one question only to be determined, and which, when you answer it, you answer it for both countries—that is to say, here the only question that has to be determined is whether or not the independent tax imposed in Ireland is substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax, and once that has been answered, it is quite obvious that it will be impossible for any other question with regard to the same tax to be raised again before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.
The point we were making was that the subject should have a chance of expressing his views before the question was answered, as otherwise it would be answered on an parte statement.
That is exactly what I am dealing with. He should have an opportunity of presenting his views to the Privy Council before the Privy Council gives the answer, and what we have done, even so far as we have gone with the Amendment at present, was to say that upon the hearing of the question the Privy Council should give leave to any person who appeared to be interested to appear and argue before it. That seems to meet the objection raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Undoubtedly the door ought to be open in the view of the Government for the subject to raise this question, even though it might be that neither Parliament desired to raise it.
Will the subject be heard before the Joint Exchequer Board?
No, that is a different question entirely.
It might save time.
The Joint Exchequer Board has nothing else to decide but tins one question which comes before it. It would have to consider, first of all, whether or not this is substantially the same tax. It expresses its opinion upon it. Then if there is dissatisfaction with that appeal, and it is thought that the opinion is wrong, there should be, in our view, an opportunity of taking this matter to the Privy Council; but it is unnecessary to do that until you have got the pronouncement of the Joint Exchequer Board. Once you have got that pronouncement, the door is thrown wide open, and no one will have any right to complain that he has not an opportunity of being heard, because it will be made quite clear. This is an answer to the question put to me by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and a very pertinent question, whether the appeal would be merely an appeal from the expression of opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board; but whether in language which is quite familiar to lawyers, and which, I think, would be understood by the Committee, the Judicial Committee should pronounce its view as to whether it comes to the same conclusion.
Would the subject get his costs in case he was successful in an appeal?
I am really not able to answer that.
Assuming that the Lord Lieutenant does not move in the matter, and does not ask for an appeal, what right has the subject in the case?
If the Lord Lieutenant did not move in the matter, then I should have thought it would be quite easy to have the petition made to him, and if there is any body of opinion at all dissatisfied with the decision of the Joint Exchequer Board that he would refer the matter to the Judicial Committee.
You may take it that there would always be a large body of opinion resisting.
Then if that is the case, you can leave it as it is, and it makes it quite unnecessary for me to go a little further to make a better provision. But I think that it was not intended to shut, out the possibility of some further appeal, or some further right to the subject that I was intending to give. If the Lord Lieutenant will not move in the matter, then I should have thought that the question could be raised in Parliament, just exactly the same as the question could be raised in Parliament here. The Secretary of State might be asked whether he would refer it to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Every opportunity is given to raise it by the Amendment even so far as it goes. But in order that there should be no doubt I am prepared to go further and to introduce words, when we put the Amendment on the Paper, which will make it quite clear that the subject will have the right to be heard before the Privy Council upon this question, provided that he makes his application within some limited period. I do not say how many months should be the time that would be allowed, but it must be essential to know whether or not the Judicial Committee will agree with the Joint Exchequer Board, and if there is to be an appeal it must be quickly, and the decision must be obtained within a very short period.
With those observations I think I have satisfied the objections which were raised by hon. Members opposite upon this matter, and when the Amendment comes on the Paper I think that they will see that we have given effect to their views, and particularly that we have given effect to the suggestion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College. I desire to make it quite plain that when the Judicial Committee comes to consider it it will have to consider it not merely by technical reference to the opinion of the Board, but to determine for itself whether it comes to that conclusion—in other words, to determine it on the merits. That, I think, answers every question which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has put to me with reference to this matter. Another question has undoubtedly been raised during the course of this Debate. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, in the second part of his observations, referred to the independent taxes which may be imposed. He put a series of questions. I shall answer those by saying that you never can determine a question of that kind until you know the precise circumstances. I shall be quite prepared to say that if you are imposing a tax upon the balance of profit or loss of a business, that, of course, would be—so it occurs to me at the moment—substantially the same as an Income Tax. But you may impose various taxes on an industry which would not be taxed directly on the balance of profit or loss, and that is what an Income Tax is. Therefore I can quite conceive cases in which a tax would be imposed which would affect profits, but nevertheless would not be a tax in the nature of Income Tax. It is suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who spoke before my right hon. and learned Friend that you will have taxation on the linen industry. He seems to think that it would be singled out in the first instance for taxation, for apparently the Members of the Irish Parliament, in dealing with matters of finance, would, in the view of the hon. and gallant Member, be actuated by revenge, and not, as I should have thought, by the desire to get money which could be used profitably in Ireland, and which they thought would be usefully derived from a particular industry or class of persons. Assuming that in the Irish Parliament you have considerations before them as to raising revenue, they have to say how that revenue is to be raised. It really does seem to me in the highest degree improbable—I will not use any stronger words—that when they who have to administer the affairs of Ireland in the Irish Parliament and are striving to make their Budget, and will have to commit their revenue, and will try to impose taxation, they will look forward to the thing which would be the best source of taxation—that is, the source which would be least harmful to Ireland and most beneficial to the community. There is very little doubt about that.They have already threatened us.
As I understood him, he referred to some observation which he had seen in a newspaper. I cannot conceive that it is any threat. I do not know w7hethcr he suggests that any hon. Member here has made a threat. I understood that that was not what he said; but if you are going to deal with the Irish Parliament and its system of raising finance upon the basis that it will not deal with finance from the aspect of finance, but simply with the desire to revenge itself upon those whom the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks its enemies, then it is impossible for us to discuss finance at all.
That has never been done in this Parliament.
The hon. Member wishes no doubt to take me to another subject, but I know what he is talking about and I answer him emphatically in the negative.
The Licence Duties.
I should have thought we had discussed that often enough to know what the answer is, and the hon. Member knows perfectly well that that tax, just the same as any other which he has in mind, certainly was not imposed for the purposes of revenge. We should have to go back to a very old discussion if we want to get into this region, and I do not propose to travel into it now. We are concerned at present with our scheme of finance here, and really, I am surprised when we come to consider the kind of criticism which has been directed to it. At one time it is said, as it was said when we were discussing Clause 2, you must exclude all power of taxation from Ireland. When that passed it is said, you must take away any power of raising Customs or Excise Duty. That we have been discussing to-day. Then we come to the third question. They say you must exclude from Ireland all power of raising independent taxes. Then when you have done all that I would really ask hon. Members opposite what do they consider would be left for Ireland, for its revenue? It is the same old story which has been heard so often and which I only venture to repeat in order to save having to go in detail into what has been said by hon. Members opposite. They are considering this system of finance in the Bill with the idea that Members of Parliament in Ireland will be actuated by wicked minds. If that is the case it is quite useless for us to repeat the language which we have already repeated. We take a contrary view and we think that when they are exercising their powers in the Irish Parliament they will seek to administer affairs as they think best for the needs of Ireland. The views between us are so conflicting that I am afraid that we cannot reconcile them, and we must be content to leave it there as we had to do at various other points in this Debate.
Will the right hon. Gentleman deal with the question of Clause 2, Sub-section (7), as to whether it does not in fact authorise the Irish Parliament to impose protective duties of the character I have indicated.
The hon. and learned Gentleman is putting a question to me which it is quite impossible for me to answer. I cannot express an opinion as to whether a case comes within this particular Clause until I know the facts, and it certainly would be very wrong for me to express, across the floor of the House, merely upon a statement made by the hon. and learned Member in regard to it, an opinion which might afterwards be used against me on a subsequent question.
Division No. 327.]
| AYES.
| [6.50 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Beauchamp, Sir Edward |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Beck, Arthur Cecil |
| Adamson, William | Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury) | Bentham, G. J. |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Bethell, Sir John Henry |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Black, Arthur W. |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Barnes, George N. | Boland, John Pius |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles Peter (Stroud) | Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) | Booth, Frederick Handel |
| Arnold, Sydney | Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Bowerman, C. W. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Barton, W. | Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) |
I was putting a perfectly general question, whether it would be possible to impose special discriminative taxes against goods manufactured abroad.
It appears to me that the Lord Lieutenant may put the Privy Council in motion on an appeal from a decision of the Joint Exchequer Board in regard to these matters. Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell the Committee who sets the Lord Lieutenant in motion? Will he act on the advice of the Irish Ministers or on his own initiative? If he acts on the advice of Irish Ministers, it seems to me the whole proceeding is perfectly futile. Ex-hypothesi the Irish Parliament proposes to levy a tax, and the Exchequer Board may decide that it is right; then somebody wants to appeal, and he asks the Lord Lieutenant to say that the tax should not be levied. Then the Lord Lieutenant refers to the Irish Ministers, who advise him not to put the Privy Council in motion. How is the Lord Lieutenant to act? It is a material question, and can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Lord Lieutenant, in the exercise of his power, will act on the advice of Irish Ministers or on his own motion? If he has to neglect the advice of Irish Ministers, will not that put him in an awkward position?
I have dealt with that point already. The Lord Lieutenant would no doubt act on the advice of Irish Ministers, but I can quite see that cases might arise where petitions would be presented, and the Lord Lieutenant might refer the matter to the Privy Council.
I will put a question on the Paper.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 308; Noes, 178.
| Brace, William | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Brady, P. J. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | O'Connor, T. P. Liverpool) |
| Bryce, John Annan | Henry, Sir Charles S. | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon, S.) | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Higham, John Sharp | O'Dowd, John |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hinds, John | O'Grady, James |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Hodge, John | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hogge, James Myles | O'Malley, William |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Shee, James John |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hudson, Walter | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Clough, William | Hughes, S. L. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Clynes, John R. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt Hon. Sir J. | Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | John, Edward Thomas | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Pirie, Duncan V |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Cullinan, John | Jowett, Frederick William | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Joyce, Michael | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Keating, Matthew | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Radford, George Heynes |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Kilbride, Denis | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Dawes, J. A. | King, J. | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Delany, William | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Reddy, Michael |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Dillon, John | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Leach, Charles | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Doris, William | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Duffy, William J. | Lewis, John Herbert | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaves) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lundon, T. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lynch, A. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary) | McGhee, Richard | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Macpherson, James Ian | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Falconer, J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Rowlands, James |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | M'Curdy, C. A. | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Ffrench, Peter | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Field, William | M'laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Samuel, J. (Stockton) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Manfield, Harry | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Gill, A. H. | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Sheehy, David |
| Ginnell, Lawrence | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meagher, Michael | Shortt, Edward |
| Glanville, H. J. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Menzies, Sir Walter | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Millar, James Duncan | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Molloy, Michael | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Molteno, Percy Alport | Snowden, Philip |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Guest, Hon. F. E. (Dorset, E.) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Spicer, Rt. Hon Sir Albert |
| Gulland, John William | Mooney, J. J. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Morgan, George Hay | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Hackett, J. | Morrell, Philip | Sutherland, John E. |
| Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Morison, Hector | Sutton, John E. |
| Hancock, John George | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Muldoon, John | Tennant, Harold John |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Nannetti, Joseph | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Needham, Christopher T. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Neilson, Francis | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Nolan, Joseph | Wadsworth, John |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Hayward, Evan | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Nuttall, Harry | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Waring, Walter | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | Wiles, Thomas | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Wilkle, Alexander | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Webb, H. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) | |
| White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Whitehouse, John Howard | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) | Gulland and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Forster, Henry William | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Gardner, Ernest | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Moore, William |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Gibbs, G. A. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Goldsmith, Frank | Mount, William Arthur |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Astor, Waldorf | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newman, John R. P. |
| Baird, J. L. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Newton, Harry (Kottingham) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Greene, W. R. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gretton, John | Nield, Herbert |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Barnston, Harry | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Barrie, H. T. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bigland, Alfred | Helmsley, Viscount | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bird, A. | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Boles, Lt.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hewins, William Herbert Samuel | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Boyton, J. | Hills, J. W. | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hohler, G. Fitzroy | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Stanier, Beville |
| Campion, W. R. | Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Horner, A. L. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Houston, Robert Paterson | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.) |
| Cassel, Felix | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Swift, Rigby |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hunt, Rowland | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hunter, Sir Charles Roderick | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Joynson-Hicks, William | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Chambers, James | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Kerry, Earl of | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Kimber, Sir Henry | Touche, George Alexander |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Knight, Captain E. A. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Larmor, Sir J. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Lewisham, Viscount | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Winterton, Earl |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Croft, H. P. | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Doughty, Sir George | Mackinder, Halford J. | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Macmaster, Donald | Younger, Sir George |
| Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Malcolm, Ian | |
| Fell, Arthur | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Craig and Mr. R. MacNeill. |
| Fleming, Valentine | ||
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "limitation" ["the following limitations"], to insert the words, "(a) The Irish Parliament shall not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production or export of goods."
7.0 P.M. In submitting that Amendment may I express my amazement at the rapidity with which the party opposite is becoming deeper and deeper involved in the policy of Protection. I take the series of Amendments which we have considered during the last few days, and in every one they have taken a step which brings them nearer and nearer to the adoption of that policy, and now, by this Amendment, we have, if I may say so, a test case. Are the party opposite going to vote for or against this Amendment? There is no possible room for misapprehension on the subject. Bounties are everywhere considered the essential mark of Protection everywhere. You may have a system of Import and Export Duty which is not Protection. The greatest economists in the Free Trade movement have always given their approval to certain classes of Import Duties which they did not consider protective, and it is perfectly open to a Free Trade party to adopt a moderate system of revenue from Import Duties, even though they give a microscopic Protection, which would not be a serious infraction of the Free Trade principle. With regard to bounties, the case is absolutely different. Universally in this country and on the Continent in the writings of all great economists the bounty is the sign of Protection. So much so is that the case that Continental writers, in looking up what we may call the fiscal policy of the United Kingdom, or many among them, are found who say it is a case over again of "perfidious Albion," and that in regard to certain important branches we have never given up the system of Protection. They say we have never given up the system of Protection with regard to our shipping and shipbuilding, owing to certain methods we have practised, and which, they say, constitute bounties on those particular industries. Therefore, they say, that it is absurd for us in this country to say that we are Free Traders as long as we retain those particular methods. In the very short time we have for the discussion of this important subject, now less than half an hour, I am not going once more over the case I gave the House yesterday in arguing the point of Order as to the very numerous methods by which a country may give bounties. I can fall back on the Board of Trade publications and Reports and on the Consular Reports issued by the Foreign Office, and in which there are so many ways enumerated in which bounties can be given and are given by the exercise of powers of taxation, such as we are giving to the Irish Parliament under this Bill. Therefore, I am not going to labour that case. I would put it this way, that the view taken by the Postmaster-General that the expres- sion bounty is to be confined to a direct payment in encouragement of exports is not the usual sense in which that term is used at the present time, nor is it the usual form which a bounty takes under the tariff system of the different countries in Europe. That is, if I may say so, a mere text-book phrase, and it is only another example of what I referred to last night, namely, of the facility with which the Postmaster-General, with his very wide knowledge on economic subjects, is able to invent formulæ to induce the Liberal party to vote for a system of Protection. I am going to assume that if what the Postmaster-General said about the intention of the Government is correct, either the Government is bound to accept this Amendment, or else it is with equal certainty committing the whole of the Liberal party to the system of Protection which the word "bounty" summarises and expresses. There is no escape from that. I venture to assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that whatever the Postmaster-General may say, whatever unction those people may lay to their souls that they are not voting for Protection, with the most perfect frankness, that we are going to explain throughout the country with fullness of detail the precise significance of the action by which the Liberal and Free Trade party has been induced to vote for a policy of Protection. I put in this warning that the British elector will forgive very much, but there is one thing they will never forgive, and that is the failure to play straight with these great questions of finance. What is the position in Ireland? I wish to look at what we may call the atmosphere in which the Government has introduced these proposals. We know perfectly well what Irishmen think about these questions. There is no misconception about that. They are perfectly straightforward about it. I have often attacked Members of the Nationalist party, but one thing I have never denied, and that is that they are perfectly straightforward. I do not complain of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway for getting this Government to bring the Gentlemen opposite to vote for this policy. It is very natural if they can upset the Liberal party on formulæ, and so much to the credit of the brains of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. Hon. Gentlemen opposite should have more knowledge of the subject and acquaintance with the details, and if they are taken in they have them- selves to blame for the consequences. What is the state of opinion in Ireland? It is universally admitted. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Water-ford (Mr. John Redmond) shakes his head, but some years ago, along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin). I had the opportunity in Dublin of hearing a great, deal of evidence from representative people all over Ireland, and we found substantially no difference whatever. There were differences on points of detail, no doubt, but the general desire for a protective system in Ireland was unanimous. In fact, so much was that the case, and my right hon. Friend will correct me if I am wrong, we were universally congratulated in Ireland because we advocated a system which harmonised all the conflicting interests in Ireland. We actually had in Dublin a banquet attended by Nationalists and Unionists, and the one thing they were unanimous about was the desirability of a protective system, for Ireland. I do not depend in the least upon a mere expression of opinion. I have got the facts of actual organisations that exist in Ireland at the present time. You have got all over Ireland industrial organisations, the object of which is to secure for Irish industries and Irish manufactures even the meagre protection which can be obtained under the present system. We have those associations all over Ireland. We have the business experience of people who have trade relations with Ireland. In order to elucidate this question I have taken the trouble to make inquiries amongst business firms which have relations with Ireland. Under the idea of the sentimental preference which is being encouraged everywhere in Ireland for the purchase and sale of Irish goods, their commercial travellers are told over and over again that no further orders can be given. I have not the time now to give the details of this matter, but if the hon. and learned Member for Waterford or anybody else wishes to know I am perfectly willing to show them the evidence of those firms, and the names of those firms, and to give them this conclusive proof, that if Ireland is determined on any one thing it is determined to carry out this policy of Protection. And why should they not be? I know very well we have the notion in England in some quarters that Irish economic activities consist of the linen industry and shipbuilding, and that for the most part all the rest is agriculture. As a matter of fact, if you examine the Census Returns, you will find there is an exceedingly wide range of Irish industries. Those Irish industries, as we have pointed out, have been severely prejudiced by the policy the United Kingdom has pursued during the past sixty years. But there is no reason why those industries should not be put on their legs again, and it is perfectly legitimate on the part of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway to aim at reviving those industries by any method which is open to them under the system of government which is now proposed. We may be perfectly certain that one of the earliest things an Irish Parliament would have to deal with would be to devise methods within the four corners of your Home Rule scheme to encourage Irish industry by remissions of taxation, by direct payments, and by other fiscal methods. The method of giving bounties is exceedingly well known. Our firms in England constantly receive invitations from the United States and from Continental countries like Roumania and many other parts, to set up their manufactures in those countries—on what terms? Why, on the terms of the remission of taxation. It is a perfectly well-known method of granting a bounty to industries. I am not going to be out of order, but I could describe other methods by which those bounties are given. We may be perfectly certain that the strongest pressure will be brought to bear on the Irish Parliament to exercise the powers they possess in giving encouragement to industries in the way I have described. I say they are bound to do it. We are not legislating, I suppose, for next year or the year after. We are legislating for a long period of time. How in the world is Ireland to escape the financial embarrassment this Bill will bring on her unless she takes steps to increase the productivity of Ireland? Will the Irish succeed in working a bounty system? I say hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are bound by their own admissions to admit that they will succeed to a certain extent. All the arguments at the back of the land policy and the scheme of taxation they have supported goes upon this, that the incidence of rates is of a certain kind. Why? Because under the system of competition if you have differences of level you are bound to have those things adjusted, and you are bound to have a number of firms given advantages such as I have described. They can do it, and Ireland has done it before in the eighteenth century. It was a common method, by which Ireland sought to increase its industries to give bounties, and if they are called on to grant those exemptions and those discriminations in taxation they can do it, and none of the explanations from the Treasury Bench have convinced me that they have thought of how the Joint Exchequer Board or anybody else is going to prevent them. What is the probable result? I say that the first result will be a great increase of friction. You have only to look through the evidence of business firms to see how deeply they resent the methods already adopted in Ireland for giving that sentimental encouragement to Irish products. I am perfectly certain that once that country embarks on that policy, you will find friction increasing by leaps and bounds. Apart from that, it must lead to the accentuation of differences between the two countries. It must lead to the growth of new vested interests, and in this connection I would point out that under the truncated Amendment of the Postmaster-General what is left to the Irish Parliament is this, and that is the final power under a tariff when, if ever, our fiscal system is reorganised, or suppose there was any drain on the finances of this country, or any departure from the present system, then you put into the hands of the Irish Government the most powerful means known to civilised tariff countries of bringing pressure to bear, and that is the power of penalisation and retaliation, under the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Great frictions are likely to arise from those differences of system. We stand on this ground. We are absolutely against any difference of any kind between Great Britain and Ireland. We stand for the fiscal unity of the United Kingdom. Guarantee that fiscal unity, which has been accepted in times past by Protectionists, by Tariff Reformers, by Free Traders, and by every great financial statesman, and you can begin to talk about Ireland. But if you are going to begin by breaking up that fiscal unity, and then give to the Irish Parliament power to accentuate those differences and to produce friction between the business men and working men of Great Britain and Ireland, I say that you are acting contrary to the interests of the Kingdom and of the Empire. I do not know that we have any Free Trade party now. I do not think we have; but there may be a few people left on the other side with some relics of their convictions as Free Traders. If there are, they are bound to vote against bounties in Ireland. It is not so much the principle of Protection. All the discussions that we have had have brought more and more into relief the conclusion that what really stands between that side and this is not so much the question whether you may or may not depart from the principles of Free Trade, but whether on the one side you will disintegrate, or, on the other, consolidate the Empire. It is the Empire question that is at the back of all this. Future generations will bear me out that that is the significance of the votes that hon. Members are giving in this great Home Rule controversy on this point. Do not make any mistake about it. The power to grant bounties is the most distinctively protective measure you could possibly adopt, and by adopting it you scrap your record and your pledges, and you deal a blow at the integrity of the Empire.I suppose that in this House there are no hon. Members who are more convinced and active Tariff Reformers than the hon. Member for South Birmingham (Mr. Amery), and the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins). It is amusing that today those two hon. Members have both moved Amendments to this Bill seeking—
I do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but in the few minutes available I beg him not to misrepresent Tariff Reformers
I do not think that in these introductory sentences I have misrepresented anybody or anything. Does the hon. Member deny that he is an active, leading, and influential Tariff Reformer, or that the hon. Member for South Birmingham occupies a similar position, or that they are both convinced Tariff Reformers? Yet these are the two hon. Members to whom we have listened to-day moving Amendments to the Bill in speeches in both of which they dwelt upon the inconveniences and drawbacks as regards Ireland of the very system which they wish to introduce between us and—
The drawbacks as regards our allowing protection in Ireland.
In the case of the Irish Government the drawbacks and friction of the very system which they wish to introduce between us and—
No.
No.
I do not wish to misrepresent anyone.
You do. Use more honest arguments.
I was going on to say, the system which they wish to introduce into the relations between this country and foreign countries. I think the hon. Member will not deny that he for one is anxious to establish a system of tariff alterations which would affect the relations between ourselves and foreign countries.
Is Ireland a foreign country?
We have had to-day an instance of the denunciation of sin from quarters where that is not expected.
Bosh! Produce serious arguments.
We are at issue with the hon. Member on this Amendment on two points, one a very important question of wording, and the other the question of merits. As to the first, the hon. Member has worded his Amendment as follows:—
"The Irish Parliament shall not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production or export of goods." I have contended that you cannot, by levying taxes, give a bounty; that a bounty is a thing given. The hon. Member disagrees with me and asks me to quote an economic authority. I should be very sorry indeed to set up for a single moment my own authority against that of the hon. Member on a question of economics, to which I know he has given the study of many years; but I will quote to him two authorities, the best I can obtain. They are two dictionaries on economics and commercial subjects, one a fairly old one and the other a recent one. McCulloch's Commercial Dictionary defines "bounty" in this way—"A term used in commerce and the arts to signify a premium paid by Government to the producers, the exporters or importers, of certain articles, or to those who employ ships in certain trades."
Will the right hon. Gentleman state the date?
I said that it was an old one; nevertheless it is still an authority. McCulloch is an old economist of about the period of Ricardo; the date of this edition is 1882; it has been revised. There is no other date in the book. The other authority is Palgrave's Dictionary of Political Economy, and there I find the following definition:—
"A bounty is in principle something received by the producer in addition to the price received from the consumer through the ordinary operations of the market."
Who is the author?
I have not time to look at that. It is a long article, but there is nothing in it which in any way differs from that assertion. The hon. Member himself is a contributor to the book; therefore I am sure he will recognise the authority of the volume. Consequently, the hon. Member is, in our view, not entitled to use the term "bounty" at all in this connection. Bounties are not possible by means of the levying of a tax. They are possible if you give a drawback larger than ought to be allowed, but that is limited by the Customs Clauses of the Bill. You cannot give a bounty upon exports, because that is prohibited by a Sub-section of the Bill, and I am quite ready, if necessary, to put in words on Report which will make that intention perfectly clear. The hon. Member says that you can give a preference to one person as against another by taxing one and not taxing the other. I am not quoting the exact words, but that is the substance. Of course, you can. He says that that is contrary to Free Trade. Let me give him two instances from our present system of taxes in this country. You may have two factories, side by side, one a distillery manufacturing whisky, and the other a factory of ginger beer; you tax one, but you do not tax the other. You have a Licence Duty on the distillery, but none on the ginger-beer factory. Yet the hon. Member says that because we maintain this system and because we would allow the Irish Parliament to establish a similar system of taxation, we are committing the whole Liberal party to Protection. I think that is straining words too far.
It is a gross misrepresentation.
The hon. Member has had many opportunities of taking part in the Debate, and he ought to be prepared to listen to views with which he I may not agree.
May I point out that the particular case given by the right hon. Gentleman is that of a tax which is contrary to Free Trade principles?
I cannot admit that. At all events, no one has yet declared that no Free Trader could be in favour of a tax upon the manufacture of alcohol; but that is, in fact, what the hon. Member is contending. It is the first time that anyone has urged that it is contrary to the principles of Free Trade to tax a particular industry such as the alcohol or liquor trade. Let me give another illustration. (An HON. MEMBER: "What about cocoa?"] We have now a system of taxation of site values and undeveloped land. We tax undeveloped land, but we do not tax land used for agriculture. If the hon. Member's Amendment were inserted in the Bill, the Irish Parliament would not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production of goods. A person who uses his land for the purposes of agriculture would accordingly get a preference of the kind the hon. Member wishes to aim at by the Amendment. It appears to me to be a most undue restriction upon the powers of the Irish Parliament to prohibit them from adopting, if they thought fit, a system of taxation believed on other grounds to be open to them, which this House has thought fit to adopt, and which no one until this moment has suggested was in any way contrary to the principles of Free Trade. I have given two particular illustrations; the hon. Member gave us none. [HON. MKMBEKS: "Oh!"] I do not think he gave a single practical instance.
The other day.
In his speech to-day he did not give even incidentally an illustration.
I must protest against what the right hon. Gentleman says. In arguing the point of Order to which I referred in my speech, I deliberately referred to the measures by which bounties are given. In addition, I referred to our own experience and to that of foreign countries. I omitted all those instances from my speech to-night simply because the Government have given us only half an hour in which to discuss this question.
It would have been interesting to have had in- stances, because one could have dealt with them one by one.
Lack of time.
The hon. Member spoke for quite a quarter of an hour. It is true it is not a long time, but it was long enough to have given cogent instances if they had been ready to hand, and we could then have considered the degree of practicability and probability attaching to them. For these reasons I ask the Committee not to accept the Amendment.
We have only two minutes left, but it is quite long enough to point out that the only argument on which the right hon. Gentleman relies is half-past seven o'clock. He began by objecting to the raising of this question in the form in which it is raised. Owing to our method of discussion it could not be raised in any other way. He gave as an illustration of difference of taxation, confectionery and spirits. He knows perfectly well that that is not the case my hon. Friend meant. If Ireland enables the confectionery trade to be started without having to pay taxes which are paid by all other industries, that is Protection, not against Ireland, but against England, which is competing with Ireland for this trade. It is a fact, and nobody can deny it, that a system of bounties is possible, and that bounties are everywhere regarded, not only as a proof of Protection, but as the worst form of Protection. All economists say so, because they invariably lead, more than any other form, to corruption. The whole sum and substance of what the Government are doing in this matter is that they are determined not to allow any preference for the United Kingdom, as a whole, against foreign countries, but they are doing, and they are ready to do, what Members from Ireland have claimed that, if ever they had the power, they would do, namely, to set up a system of Protection against England and Scotland. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] I can read a quotation, even in the short time left, from a speech. It is by the hon. Member, who, I think, is the son of the leader of the Irish party. Speaking in this House, he said:—
That is what the Government is giving! And, it being after half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded pursuant to the Order of the House of the 14th October, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair."What we want is Protection, and not against the tariffs of Germany and the United States, but against this country."
Division No. 328.]
| AYES.
| [7.30 p.m.
|
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Goldman, C. S. | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Goldsmith, Frank | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newman, John R. P. |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Greene, W. R. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Baird, J. L. | Gretton, John | Nield, Herbert |
| Balcarres, Lord | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid.) |
| Beldwin, Stanley | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Barnston, Harry | Haddock, George Bahr | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Barrie, H. T. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hamersley, A. St. George | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Rawson, Colonel R. H. |
| Bird, A. | Harris, Henry Percy | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Helmsley, Viscount | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Boyton, J. | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hickman, Col. T. E. | Royds, Edmund |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hills, J. W. | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool., W. Derby) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hoare, S. J. G. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hohler, G. Fitzroy | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Campion, W. R. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone) |
| Cassel, Felix | Horner, Andrew Long | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Houston, Robert Paterson | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Cave, George | Hume-Williams, W. E. | Stanler, Beville |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hunt, Rowland | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) | Hunter, Sir C. R. | Starkey, John R. |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Ingleby, Holcombe | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Chambers, J. | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Swift, Rigby |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kerry, Earl of | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Kimber, Sir Henry | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Knight, Capt. E. A. | Terrell, H. (Gloucester) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Larmor, Sir J. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, Norman (Kent) | Lewisham, Viscount | Tryon, Capt. George Clement |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Croft, H. P. | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent. Mid) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. Sir C. Scott | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Doughty, Sir George | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Duke, Henry Edward | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Mackinder, H. J. | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Macmaster, Donald | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Fell, Arthur | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Malcolm, Ian | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Fleming, Valentine | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Younger, Sir George |
| Forster, Henry William | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | |
| Gardner, Ernest | Moore, William | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Gastrell, Major W. H. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Hewins and Mr. Bigland. |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Mount, William Arthur |
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 214; Noes, 325.
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Esslemont, George Birnle | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Falconer, J. | Lynch, A. A. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Farrell, James Patrick | Macdonald, J, R. (Leicester) |
| Adamson, William | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Ffrench, Peter | McGhee, Richard |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Field, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Fitzgibbon, John | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Arnold, Sydney | George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Gill, A. H. | M'Curdy, C. A. |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Ginnell, L. | M'Kean, John |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Glanville, H. J. | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spelding) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Manfield, Harry |
| Barnes, George N. | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Griffith, Ellis J. | Martin, J. |
| Barton, W. | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Gulland, John W | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Meagher, Michael |
| Bentham, G. J. | Hackett, John | Meehan, Francis (Leitrim, N. I |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Hancock, J. G. | Millar, James Duncan |
| Black, Arthur W | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Molloy, M. |
| Boland, John Pius | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Harvey, A. J. C. (Rochdale) | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Mooney, J. J. |
| Brace, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Brady, P. J. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Morrell, Philip |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morison, Hector |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Havelock-Allan, sir Henry | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hayden, John Patrick | Muldoon, John |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hayward, Evan | Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hazleton, Richard | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Needham, Christopher |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Neilson, Francis |
| Bytes, Sir William Pollard | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Henry, Sir Charles | Nolan, Joseph |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Higham, John Sharp | Nugent, Sir Walter R. |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Hinds, John | Nuttall, Harry |
| Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hodge, John | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hogge, James Myles | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Clough, William | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Clynes, John R. | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Dowd, John |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Grady, James |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hudson, Walter | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Malley, William |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburghshire) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Crooks, William | John, Edward Thomas | O'Shee, James John |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Cullinan, J. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Jones, Haydn (Merioneth) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rothernam) |
| Dawes, J. A. | Jowett, F. W. | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) |
| De Forest, Baron | Joyce, Michael | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Delany, William | Keating, M. | Pointer, Joseph |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Kellaway, Frederick George | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Devlin, Joseph | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Dillon, John | King, J. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Price, Sir Robert J. E. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Doris, W. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Duffy, William | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradfard, E.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Leach, Charles | Radford, G. H. |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rattan, Peter Wilson |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford) | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Lundon, T. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Reddy, M. | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Webb, H. |
| Rendall, Athelstan | Snowden, P. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. sir Thomas P. |
| Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Sutherland, J. E. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Sutton, John E. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Robinson, Sidney | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Roche, John (Galway, E.) | Tennant, Harold John | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Thomas, James Henry | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Rowlands, James | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Rowntree, Arnold | Thorne, William (West Ham) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Toulmin, Sir George | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Winfrey, Richard |
| Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Wood, Rt. Hon. T McKinnon, (Glas.) |
| Samuel, J. (Stockton) | Verney, Sir Harry | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Scanian, Thomas | Wadsworth, John | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Walton, Sir Joseph | |
| Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | |
| Sheehy, David | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Wardle, G. J. | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
| Shortt, Edward | Waring, Walter |
then proceeded, successively to put forthwith the Question on Amendments moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at Half-past Seven of the clock at this day's sitting.
Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1), after the word "tax" ["as an Imperial tax"], to insert the words,
Division No. 329.]
| AYES.
| [7.44 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Bryce, J. Annan | Delany, William |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Burke, E. Haviland- | Devlin, Joseph |
| Adamson, William | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Dickinson, W. H. |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Dillon, John |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Doris, William |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Duffy, William J. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Chancellor, H. G. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Clancy, John Joseph | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Clough, William | Essex, Richard Walter |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Clynes, J. R. | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Falconer, James |
| Barnes, George N. | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick) | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles |
| Barton, William | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Ffrench, Peter |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Cotton, William Francis | Field, William |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Fitzgibbon, John |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Crooks, William | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Crumley, Patrick | George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd |
| Black, Arthur W. | Cullinan, John | Gill, A. H. |
| Boland, John Plus | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Ginnell, Laurence |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Davies, Ellis William (Eiflon) | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Glanville, H. J. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Brace, William | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Dawes, James Arthur | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | De Forest, Baron | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward |
"and shall not have power to vary, except by way of addition, any Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax, or any Excise Duty so levied where there is a corresponding Customs Duty."—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 324; Noes, 213.
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Manfield, Harry | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Gulland, John William | Martin, Joseph | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Hackett, John | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Roch, Walter F. |
| Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Meagher, Michael | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Hancock, J. G. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Millar, James Duncan | Rowlands, James |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Molloy, Michael | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Mooney, John J. | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Mon.) | Morgan, George Hay | Scanian, Thomas |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Morrell, Philip | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Morison, Hector | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Hayward, Evan | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Hazleton, Richard | Muldoon, John | Sheehy, David |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Shortt, Edward |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Needham, Christopher T. | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Neilson, Francis | Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Snowden, Philip |
| Hinds, John | Nolan, Joseph | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Hodge, John | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Hogge, James Myles | Nuttall, Harry | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Sutton, John E. |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Doherty, Philip | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Hughes, S. L. | O'Donnell, Thomas | Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Dowd, John | Tennant, Harold John |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Ogden, Fred | Thomas, James Henry |
| John, Edward Thomas | O'Grady, James | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Malley, William | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | O'Shee, James John | Wadsworth, J. |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Jowett, F. W. | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Joyce, Michael | Parker, James (Halifax) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Keating, Matthew | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Wardle, George J. |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Waring, Walter |
| Kilbride, Denis | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| King, Joseph | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Pirie, Duncan V. | Webb, H. |
| Lardner, J. C. R. | Pointer, Joseph | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Pollard, Sir George H. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Leach, Charles | Power, Patrick Joseph | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Lundon, Thomas | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Pringle, William M. R. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Macdonald, P. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Radford, George Heynes | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| McGhee, Richard | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Reddy, Michael | Winfrey, Richard |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnnon (Glas.) |
| M'Curdy, C. A. | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| M'Kean, John | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Rendall, Athelstan | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | |
| M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
NOES.
| ||
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Baird, John Lawrence |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Ashley, W. W. | Balcarres, Lord |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Astor, Waldorf | Baldwin, Stanley |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gretton, John | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Barnston, Harry | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfieid) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Nield, Herbert |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Haddock, George Bahr | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | O'Shee, James John |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, s.) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bird, Alfred | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Harris, Henry Percy | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Boyton, James | Helmsley, Viscount | Rawson, Col. Richard H. |
| Bull, Sir William James | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Burdett-Coutts, William | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Hickman, Col. Thomas E. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hills, John Walter | Royds, Edmund |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Campion, W. H. | Hoare, S. J. G. | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Cassel, Felix | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Cave, George | Horner, A. L. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hunt, Rowland | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Chambers, J. | Ingleby, Holcombe | Stanier, Beville |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Clay, Captain H. H, Spender | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Starkey, John R. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Stewart, Gershom |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kerry, Earl of | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kimber, Sir Henry | Swift, Rigby |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Larmor, Sir J. | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lawson. Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lewisham, Viscount | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Croft, Henry Page | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dixon, C. H. | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Doughty, Sir George | Lonsdale. Sir John Brownlee | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Eyres-Monsell, S. M. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Mackinder, H. J. | Winterton, Earl |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Macmaster, Donald | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Fleming, Valentine | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Forster, Henry William | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Malcolm, Ian | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Moysey-Thompson, E. C, | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Gastrell, Major W. H. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Moore, William | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Goldman, C. S. | Morrison-Bell, Cant. E. F. (Ashburton) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Mount, William Arthur | Younger, Sir George |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newdegate, F. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Newman, John R. P. | Middlemore and Mr. Fell. |
| Greene, Walter Raymond |
Government Amendment: At end of Sub-section (2), add the following new Sub-section:—
"( c) The power of the Irish Parliament to vary an Imperial tax, so far as Income Tax (not including Super-tax) is concerned, shall only be exercised so as to alter the conditions under which any exemption, abate-
ment, or relief from the tax may be granted to persons resident in Ireland without varying the rate of the tax, and, so far as any Customs Duty or any Death Duty is concerned, shall only be exercised so as to vary the rate of the duty without otherwise altering the provisions with respect to the duty, or dis-
criminating in that variation between persons, articles, or property, and where the duty is one of two or more correlated duties, or is a duty levied at a varying rate, shall not be exercised without varying proportionately all the correlated duties or
Division No. 330.]
| AYES.
| [7.55 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Donelan, Captain A. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Doris, William | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Duffy, William J. | Jowett, F. W. |
| Adamson, William | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Joyce, Michael |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Keating, Matthew |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Kilbride, Denis |
| Alien, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | King, Joseph |
| Arnold, Sydney | Essex, Richard Walter | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Esslemont, George Birnle | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Falconer, James | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Farrell, James Patrick | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Coekerm'th) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Ffrench, Peter | Leach, Charles |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Field, William | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) |
| Barnes, George N. | Fitzgibbon, John | Lundon, Thomas |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lyell, Charles Heury |
| Barton, William | Gill, A. H. | Lynch, Arthur Alfred |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Ginnell, Laurence | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Glanville, Harold James | McGhee, Richard |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Boland, John Plus | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | M'Curdy, C. A. |
| Brace, William | Gulland, John William | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Hackett, John | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hancock, J. G. | Manfield, Harry |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Martin, Joseph |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Mason, D. M. (Coventry) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Meagher, Michael |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Menzies, sir Walter |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Haslam, James (Derbyshire)) | Millar, James Duncan |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Molloy, Michael |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Hayden, John Patrick | Mond, Sir Alfred M. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hayward, Evan | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hazleton, Richard | Mooney, John J. |
| Clough, William | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Morgan, George Hay |
| Clynes, John R. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Morrell, Philip |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Morison, Hector |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Henry, Sir Charles | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Muldoon, John |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Higham, John Sharp | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hinds, John | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Hodge, John | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Crooks, William | Hogge, James Myles | Neilson, Francis |
| Crumley, Patrick | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Cullinan, John | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hudson, Walter | Nuttall, Harry |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| De Forest, Baron | John, Edward Thomas | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Delany, William | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvll) | O'Dowd, John |
| Devlin, Joseph | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Ogden, Fred |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Grady, James |
| Dillon, John | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
all the rates of duties."—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 319; Noes, 210.
| Q'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| O'Malley, William | Robinson, Sidney | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Roch, Walter F. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Wadsworth, J. |
| O'Shee, James John | Roche, John (Galway, E.) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| O'Sullivan, Timothy | Roe, Sir Thomas | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Rowlands, James | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Rowntree, Arnold | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Wardle, George J. |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Waring, Walter |
| Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Scanlan, Thomas | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Webb, H. |
| Pointer, Joseph | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Sheehy, David | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Sherwell, Arthur James | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Shortt, Edward | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | I Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Smith, H B. L. (Northampton) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Pringle, William M. R. | Snowden, Philip | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Radford, George Heynes | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Raffan, Peter Wilson | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Sutherland, J. E. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Reddy, Michael | Sutton, John E. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. Mckinnon (Glas.) |
| Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Rendall, Athelstan | Tennant, Harold John | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Thomas, J. H. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Thorne, William (West Ham) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Toulmin, Sir George | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
| Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
NOES.
| ||
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Hall, Marshall, (E. Toxteth) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hamersley, A. St. George |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Clyde, James Avon | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) |
| Archer, Shee, Major Martin | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence |
| Astor, Waldorf | Courthope, George Loyd | Harris, Henry Percy |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Harrison-Broadley, H. B, |
| Balcarres, Lord | Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) |
| Barnston, Harry | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hewins, William Albert Samuel |
| Barrie, H. T. | Croft, Henry Page | Hickman, Colonel T. E. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Hill, Sir Clement L. |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Denniss, E. R. B. | Hills, J. W. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Hill-Wood, S. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Dixon, C. H. | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Doughty, Sir George | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Duke, Henry Edward | Hope, Harry (Bute) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) |
| Bird, Alfred | Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Fell, Arthur | Horner, A. L. |
| Boscawen, Sir A. T. Griffith- | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Hume-Williams, W. E. |
| Boyton, James | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Hunt, Rowland |
| Bull, Sir William James | Fleming, Valentine | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Forster, Henry William | Ingleby, Holcombe |
| Burgoyne, Alan Hughes | Foster, Philip Staveley | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Gardner, Ernest | Jessel, Captain H. M. |
| Butcher, John George | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. |
| Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Gibbs, George Abraham | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Goldman, C. S. | Kerry, Earl of |
| Campion, W. R. | Goldsmith, Frank | Kimber, Sir Henry |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Gordon, Hon, John Edward (Brighton) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford |
| Cassel, Felix | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lane-Fox, G. R, |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Greene, Walter Raymond | Larmor, Sir J. |
| Cave, George | Gretton, John | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Lloyd, G. A. |
| Chambers, J. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Peto, Basil Edward | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Gee. Han. S.) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Remnant, James Farquharson | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Mackinder, Halford J. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Macmaster, Donald | Rolleston, Sir John | Touche, George Alexander |
| M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Rothschild, Lionel de | Valentia, Viscount |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Royds, Edmund | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Moore, William | Salter, Arthur Clavell | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Mount, William Arthur | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Neville, Reginald J. N. | Sanderson, Lancelot | Winterton, Earl |
| Newdegate, F. A. | Sassoon, Sir Philip | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Newman, John R. P. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Newton, Harry Kottingham | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, w.) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Nield, Herbert | Spear, Sir John Ward | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Norton-Griffiths, J. | Stanier, Beville | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Starkey, John R. | Younger, Sir George |
| Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Steel-Maitland, A. D. | |
| Parkes, Ebenezer | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Swift, Rigby | Stewart and Mr. J. Wood. |
Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1), at the end of paragraph ( d), to leave out the words "Excise restrictions," in order to insert instead thereof, the words
"revenue restrictions, or any variation of Customs or Excise drawbacks or allowances which woud cause the amount of drawback or allowance payable in respect of any article to be more than reasonably sufficient, in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, to cover the duty paid thereon, and any expenses due to revenue restrictions,"—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
Division No. 331.]
| AYES.
| [8.10 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Crooks, William |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Brace, William | Crumley, Patrick |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Brady, P. J. | Cullinan, J. |
| Adamson, William | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Bryce, J. Annan | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Adkins, Sir W Ryland D. | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Burke, E. Haviland- | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Dawes, James Arthur |
| Arnold, Sydney | Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | De Forest, Baron |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Delany, William |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Devlin, Joseph |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Dickinson, W. H. |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Chancellor, H. G. | Dillon, John |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Chapple, Dr. William | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Barnes, George N. | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Doris, W. |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Clancy, John Joseph | Duffy, William J. |
| Barton, William | Clough, William | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Clynes, J, R. | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Bentham G. J. | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Black, Arthur W. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |
| Boland, John Pius | Cotton, William Francis | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Essex, Richard Walter |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Esslemont, George Birnie |
(seated and covered): I beg, Sir, to ask, on a point of Order, whether it is not possible so to improve the instrument known as the guillotine that it may be possible to Closure by one blow a series of Amendments and Clauses, so that hon. Members, being prohibited from opportunity of speech, may be relieved from the necessity of prolonged pedestrian exercise, and so that the solemn farce of Divisions without discussion may not be unduly overdone?
The Committee divided: Ayes, 316; Noes, 207.
| Falconer, J. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | McGhee, Richard | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Ffrench, Peter | MacNeil, John G. S. (Donegal, South) | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Field, William | Macpherson, James Ian | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Curdy, C. A. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | M'Kean, John | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Gill, A. H. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Robinson, Sidney |
| Ginnell, L. | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Roch, Walter F. |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Glanville, Harold James | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Manfield, Harry | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Rowlands, James |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Martin, J. | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset) | Meagher, Michael | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Gulland, John W. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Hackett, J. | Millar, James Duncan | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Molloy, M. | Seely, Rt. Hon. Col. J. E. B. |
| Hancock, John George | Molteno, Percy Alport | Sheehy, David |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Shortt, Edward |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Mooney, J. J. | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Morgan, George Hay | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Morrell, Phillip | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Morison, Hector | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Snowden, p. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Muldoon, John | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Hayward, Evan | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Hazleton, Richard | Needham, Christopher T. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Neilson, Francis | Sutton, John E. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nolan, Joseph | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Henry, Sir Charles S. | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Tennant, Harold John |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nuttall, Harry | Thomas, J. H. |
| Hinds, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Hodge, John | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Hogge, James Myles | O'Doherty, Philip | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Donnell, Thomas | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Dowd, John | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Ogden, Fred | Wadsworth, J. |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Grady, James | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Malley, William | Wardle, George J. |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles S. (Armagh, S.) | Waring, Walter |
| John, Edward Thomas | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | O'Shee, James John | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Webb, H. |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Parker, James (Halifax) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston). |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pearce, Robert (Starts, Leek) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Joyce, Michael | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Keating, Matthew | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Pointer, Joseph | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| King, J. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, West) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Pringle, William M. R. | Winfrey, Richard |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid., Cockerm'th) | Radford, George Heynes | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Leach, Charles | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Lundon, Thomas | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Reddy, Michael | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Redmond, John E (Waterford) | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
NOES.
| ||
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Ashley, W. W. | Balcarres, Lord |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Astor, Waldorf | Baldwin, Stanley |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Baird, J. L. | Banbury, Sir Frederick George |
| Barnston, Harry | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Nield, Herbert |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Norton-Griffiths, John |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hamersley, A. St. George | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pole-Carew, sir R. |
| Bird, Alfred | Harris, Henry Percy | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Helmsley, Viscount | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peef |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boyton, James | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hickman, Colonel T. E. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Hills, J. W. | Royds, Edmund |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, w. Derby) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ) | Hohler, G. F. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Campion, W. R. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Carlile, Sir Hildred | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Cassel, Felix | Horner, A. L. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Houston, Robert Paterson | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Cave, George | Hume-Williams, W. E. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hunt, Rowland | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hunter, Sir C. R. | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Ingleby, Holcombe | Stanier, Beville |
| Chambers, J. | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Starkey, John R. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Steel-Maitland, A. D |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Stewart, Gershom |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kerry, Earl of | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kimber, Sir Henry | Swift, Rigby |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Larmor, Sir J. | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Croft, H. P. | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Lewisham, Viscount | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lloyd, G. A. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Dixon, C. H. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Tryon, Capt. George Clement |
| Doughty, Sir George | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Fell, Arthur | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. s.) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., South port) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | MacCaw, W. J. MacGeagh | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Mackinder, H. J. | Winterton, Earl |
| Fleming, Valentine | Macmaster, Donald | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Forster, Henry William | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Goldman, C. S. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Moore, William | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Mount, William Arthur | Younger, Sir George |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
| Greene, Walter Raymond | Nowdegate, F. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Gretton, John | Newman, John R. P. | G. Gibbs and Mr. C. Craig. |
| Guinness, Hon Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
Question put, "That the Clause, as Amended, stand part of the Bill."
Division No. 332.]
| AYES.
| [8.30 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Beauchamp, Sir Edward |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Bentham, George Jackson |
| Adamson, William | Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Bethell, Sir J. H. |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine |
| Agnew, Sir George | Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Black, Arthur W. |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Barnes, George N. | Boland, John Pius |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Booth, Frederick Handel |
| Arnold, Sydney | Barton, William | Bowerman, Charles W. |
The Committee divided: Ayes, 300; Noes, 194.
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Brace, William | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Brady, P. J. | Hayward, Evan | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Hazleton, Richard | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Bryce, John Annan | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Dowd, John |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Ogden, Fred |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Henry, Sir Charles S. | O'Grady, James |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Higham, John Sharp | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Hinds, John | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Malley, William |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hodge, John | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hogge, James Myles | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Shee, James John |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hudson, Walter | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Clough, William | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | John, Edward Thomas | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Radford, G. H. |
| Cullinan, John | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Joyce, Michael | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Keating, Matthew | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Reddy, Michael |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Kilbride, Denis | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | King, J. | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| De Forest, Baron | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Delany, William | Lambert, Richard (Cricklade) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Dillon, John | Leach, Charles | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lewis, John Herbert | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Doris, William | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lundon, Thomas | Robinson, Sidney |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roch, Walter F. |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | McGhee, Richard | Rowlands, James |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Macpherson, James Ian | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Falconer, James | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Curdy, C. A. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Sheehy, David |
| French, Peter | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Field, William | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Shortt, Edward |
| Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Manfield, Harry | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Martin, J. | Smyth, Thomas F, (Leitrim, S.) |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Snowden, Philip |
| Ginnell, L. | Meagher, Michael | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Glanville, H. G. | Menzies, Sir Walter | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Millar, James Duncan | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Molloy, Michael | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Sutton, John E. |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Gulland, John W. | Mooney, John J. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Morgan, George Hay | Tennant, Harold John |
| Hackett, J. | Morrell, Philip | Thomas, James Henry |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Morison, Hector | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hancock, John George | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Muldoon, John | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Nannetti, Joseph p. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Needham, Christopher T. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Nolan, Joseph | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Norton, Captain Cecil William | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Wardle, George J. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Nuttall, Harry | Waring, Walter |
| Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | Wilkie, Alexander | Winfrey, Richard |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. (McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Webb, H. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Wedgwood, Josiah C | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | Williamson, Sir A. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) | |
| Whitehouse, John Howard | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
NOES.
| ||
| Aitken, Sir W. M. | Gibbs, G. A. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Goldman, C. S. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Ashley, W. W. | Goldsmith, Frank | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Astor, Waldorf | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Baird, J. L. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Newman, John R. P. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Greene, Walter Raymond | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gretton, John | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Barnston, H. | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Nield, Herbert |
| Barrie, Hugh T. | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Norton-Griffiths, J. |
| Bathurst, Charles Wilton | Gwynn, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hall, Marshall, (E. Toxteth) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (Montgom'y B'ghs) |
| Bird, Alfred | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Harris, Henry Percy | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Helmsley, Viscount | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Boyton, J. | Henderson, Major H, (Berkshire) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bull, Sir William James | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hickman, Colonel T. E. | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hill, Sir Clement | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hills, J. W. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Campion, W. R. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Stanier, Beville |
| Cassel, Felix | Horner, Andrew Long | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Houston, Robert Paterson | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Cave, George | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hunt, Rowland | Stewart, Gershom |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Chambers, James | Ingleby, Holcombe | Swift, Rigby |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kerry, Earl of | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Craig Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Knight, Captain E. A. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Larmor, Sir J. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lawson, Hon. Harry (Mile End) | Watrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Lewisham, Viscount | Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Doughty, Sir George | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Wood, Mon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | Worthington-Evans. L. |
| Fell, Arthur | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Mackinder, H. J. | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Macmaster, Donald | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Fleming, Valentine | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent. St. Augustine's) | Younger, Sir George |
| Forster, Henry William | Mersey-Thompson, E. C. | |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Salter and Major White. |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Moore, William | |
Clause 16—(Relations Between Great Britain And Ireland As Respects Customs And Excise Duties)
(1) Any articles which are brought into Great Britain from Ireland or into Ireland from Great Britain shall be deemed to be articles exported or imported for the purposes of information to be furnished under the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, and Section four of the Revenue Act, 1909, and for the purpose of any duty or drawback payable in the circumstances for which provision is made under this Section, but not for any other purpose.
(2) Where a Customs Duty is levied in one country and not in the other, or is levied in both countries but at a higher rate in the one country than in the other, duty shall be charged and drawback allowed in respect of articles being articles produced, prepared, or manufactured abroad as follows:
(3) Where an Excise Duty is levied in one country and not in the other, or is levied in both countries but at a higher rate in the one country than in the other, duty shall be charged and drawback allowed in respect of articles being articles produced, prepared, or manufactured in either country as follows:—
Division No. 333.
| AYES.
| 8.30 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Barton, W. | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Burl, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) |
| Adamson, William | Bentham, G. J. | Byles, Sir William Pollard |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Bethell, Sir J. H, | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Black, Arthur W. | Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Boland, John Pius | Chancellor, H. G. |
| Arnold, Sydney | Booth, Frederick Handel | Chapple, Dr. William Allen |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Bowerman, C. W. | Clancy, John Joseph |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Clough, William |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Brace, William | Clynes, John R. |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Brady, P. J. | Collins, G. P. (Greenock) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Bryce, J. Annan | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Barnes, G. N. | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Burke, E. Haviland- | Cotton, William Francis |
as if they were articles imported from abroad, equal to the amount of the Excise Duty levied in the country into which they are brought; and
( b A drawback shall be allowed on any such articles sent from the one country into the other equal to the amount of the Excise Duty levied in the country from which they are sent
(4) The proceeds of any Customs Duty charged under this Section in Ireland on any article shall to the extent to which they exceed the proceeds of the Customs or Excise Duty which would have been charged on the article on Great Britain be deemed to be the proceeds of a Customs Duty levied as an Irish tax, if the duty is charged in respect of a difference of Customs Duties, and be deemed to be the proceeds of an Excise Duty levied as an Irish tax if the duty is charged in respect of a difference of Excise Duties, and as to the balance be deemed to be the proceeds of an Imperial tax.
(5) Nothing in this Section shall affect any enactment under which articles deposited in a bonded warehouse without payment of duty may be transferred from one country to the other country.
Government Amendment: In Sub-section (2), at the end of paragraph ( a), add the words,
"and if the duty is payable in respect of any such articles on delivery from bond, after manufacture or preparation in bond, a duty equal to that which would have been paid under similar circumstances in respect of the same article in the country into which the article is brought."—[ Sir Rufus Isaacs.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 298; Noes, 192.
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jowett, Frederick William | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Joyce, Michael | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Crooks, William | Keating, Matthew | Radford, G. H. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Kellaway, Frederick George | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Cullinan, J. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Kilbride, Denis | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | King, J. | Reddy, M. |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| De Forest, Baron | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Delany, William | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Leach, Charles | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lewis, John Herbert | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lundon, Thomas | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Doris, William | Lyell, Charles Henry | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lynch, A. A. | Robinson, Sidney |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | McGhee, Richard | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Rowlands, James |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Macpherson, James Ian | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Essex, Richard Walter | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | M'Curdy, Charles Albert | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Falconer, J. | M'Kean, John | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Mckenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Ffrench, Peter | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Sheehy, David |
| Field, William | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Manfield, Harry | Shortt, Edward |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Martin, Joseph | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Gill, A. H. | Meagher, Michael | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Ginnell, L. | Mechan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Snowden, Philip |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Menzies, Sir Walter | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Glanville, Harold James | Millar, James Duncan | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Molloy, M. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Sutton, John E. |
| Gulland, John William | Mooney, J. J. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Morgan, George Hay | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Hackett, J. | Morrell, Philip | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Morison, Hector | Tennant, Harold John |
| Hancock, John George | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Thomas, J. H. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Muldon, John | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. D. | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Needham, Christopher T. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Nolan, Joseph | Wadsworth, J. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nuttall, Harry | Wardle, George J. |
| Hayward, Evan | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Waring, Walter |
| Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Doherty, Philip | Webb, H. |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | O'Donnell, Thomas | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Henry, Sir Charles | O'Dowd, John | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Ogden, Fred | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Hinds, John | O'Grady, James | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Hodge, John | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Hoqge, James Myles | O'Malley, William | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Shee, James John | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Hughes, S. L. | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| John, Edward Thomas | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Jones, Edgar (Mertyhr Tydvil) | Pirie, Duncan V. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Pointer, Joseph | |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe) | Power, Patrick Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | G. Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
NOES.
| ||
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Goldman, C. S. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin M. | Goldsmith, Frank | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Newman, John R. P. |
| Astor, Waldorf | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Baird, J. L. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Gretton, John | Nield, Herbert |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Norton-Griffiths, John |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antraim, Mid) |
| Barnston, Harry | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Barrie, H. T. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington) | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Bird, A. | Harris, Henry Percy | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Helmsley, Viscount | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Boyton, James | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Rothschild, Lionel do |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hickman, Colonel T. E. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hills, John Waller | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Campion, W. R. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Horner, Andrew Long | Stanier, Beville |
| Cassel, Felix | Houston, Robert Paterson | Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Starkey, John R. |
| Cave, George | Hunt, Rowland | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Chambers, J. | Ingleby, Holcombe | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Swift, Rigby |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kerry, Earl of | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Kimber, Sir Henry | Terrell, H. (Gloucester) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Thompson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Knight, Captain E. A. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Larmor, Sir J. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Dennis, E. R. B. | Lewisham, Viscount | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., South) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Fell, Arthur | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Mackinder, H. J. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Macmaster, Donald | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Fleming, Valentine | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Yate, Col. Charles Edward |
| Forster, Henry William | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Younger, Sir George |
| Gardner, Ernest | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | |
| Gastrell, Major W. H. | Moore, William | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Hicks Beach and Mr. Greene. |
Government Amendment: In Sub-section (3), paragraph ( a), after the word "brought" ["the country into which they are brought"], insert the words,
"or if there is no such Excise Duty in the country from which the articles are sent, a duty equal to the drawback allowed on the exportation of similar articles manufactured or prepared in the country into which the article is brought or, if there is no such drawback, equal
to the Customs Duty payable on the importation of a similar article into the country into which the article is brought."—[ Mr Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
What does the Amendment mean?
(seated and covered): Do I understand that the Government do not move the Amendment in line 26? [In Sub-section (3), paragraph (a), after the word "levied" (equal to the amount of the Excise Duty levied"), to insert the words "on similar articles."]
Division No. 334.]
| AYES.
| [8.40 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Essex, Richard Walter | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Esslemont, George Birnie | Lundon, Thomas |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Falconer, James | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Adamson, Williamson | Farrell, James Patrick | Lynch, A. A. |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Ffrench, Peter | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Field, William | McGhee, Richard |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Arnold, Sydney | Fitzgibbon, John | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Gill, Alfred Henry | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Ginnell, L. | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | M'Curdy, C. A. |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Glanville, H. J. | M'Kean, John |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Barnes, G. N. | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Barton, William | Gulland, John W. | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Manfield, Harry |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.) | Hackett, J. | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Bentham, G. J. | Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Martin, J. |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Hancock, J. G. | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale) | Meagher, Michael |
| Black, Arthur W. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Mechan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Boland, John Pius | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Menzies, Sir Waiter |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Millar, James Duncan |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Molloy, M. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Brace, William | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. |
| Brady, P. J. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Mooney, John J. |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hayden, John Patrick | Morgan, George Hay |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hayward, Evan | Morison, Hector |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hazleton, Richard | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Muldoon, John |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Henry, Sir Charles | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hiqham, John Sharp | Needham, Christopher |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hinds, John | Nolan, Joseph |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Hodge, John | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hogge, James Myles | Nuttall, Harry |
| Clough, William | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Clynes, John R. | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Hudson, Walter | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Dowd, John |
| Cotton, William Francis | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Ogden, Fred |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | O'Grady, James |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | John, Edward Thomas | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow) |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Malley, William |
| Cullinan, J. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe) | O'Shee, James John |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Jowett, Frederick William | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| De Forest, Baron | Joyce, Michael | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Delany, William | Keating, Matthew | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Kellaway, Frederick George | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Kilbride, Denis | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Doris, W. | King, J. | Pointer, Joseph |
| Duffy, William J. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Elverston, sir Harold | Leach, Charles | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Radford, George Heynes |
That is so.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 298; Noes, 192.
| Raffan, Peter Wilson | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Sheehy, David | Wardle, George J. |
| Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Sherwell, Arthur James | Waring, Walter |
| Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Shortt, Edward | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Reddy, Michael | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Webb, H. |
| Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Rendall, Athelstan | Snowden, Philip | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Sutherland, J. E. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Sutton, John E. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Robinson, Sidney | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Roche, John (Galway, E.) | Tennant, Harold John | Winfrey, Richard |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Thomas, J. H. | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Rowlands, James | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Rowntree, Arnold | Thorne, William (West Ham) | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Toulmin, Sir George | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | |
| Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Verney, Sir Harry | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. G. |
| Scanlan, Thomas | Wadsworth, J. | Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Scott, A. MacCallum (Bridgeton) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs, Ince) |
NOES.
| ||
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Lane-Fox, G. R. |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Fell, Arthur | Larmor, Sir J. |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) |
| Baird, J. L. | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Balcarres, Lord | Fleming, Valentine | Lloyd, G. A. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Forster, Henry William | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Foster, Philip Staveley | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Barnston, H. | Gardner, Ernest | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Barrie, H. T. | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Gibbs, G. A. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Goldman, C. S. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Goldsmith, Frank | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Mackinder, H. J. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Macmaster, Donald |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Greene, Walter Raymond | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
| Bird, A. | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Middlemore, John Throgmorton |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Moore, William |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Boyton, James | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Mount, William Arthur |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Burdett-Coutts, William | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Burgoyne, A. H, | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington) | Newman, John R. P. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Butcher, John George | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Harris, Henry Percy | Nield, Herbert |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Norton-Griffiths, J. |
| Campion, W. R. | Helmsley, Viscount | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Cassel, Felix | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Cave, George | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hills, John Waller | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Chambers, J. | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Clyde, James Avon | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Horner, Andrew Long | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Houston, Robert Paterson | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Salter, Arthur Claveil |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hunt, Rowland | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hunter, Sir C. R. | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Ingleby, Holcombe | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Doughty, Sir George | Kerry, Earl of | Stanier, Beville |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Knight, Captain E. A. | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Steel-Maitland, A. D. | Touche, George Alexander | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Stewart, Gershom | Tryon, Captain George Clement | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Valentia, Viscount | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Swift, Rigby | Walrond, Hon. Lionel | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Sykes, Alan, John (Ches., Knutsford) | Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Sykes, Mark (Hull Central) | Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Talbot, Lord E. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) | Younger, Sir George |
| Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) | |
| Terrell, H. (Gloucester) | Wills, Sir Gilbert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) | Wolmer, Viscount | E. Craig and Mr. John Lyttelton. |
| Tobin, Alfred Aspinall | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
Government Amendment: At the end of Sub-section (3), to insert the words,
"in cases where a drawback would be allowed on the exportation of the articles from that country or, if no Excise Duty is levied in the country into which the articles are sent, equal to the
Division No. 335.]
| AYES.
| [8.51 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Davies, Timothy (Lincs, Louth) | Hodge, John |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hogge, James Myles |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Dawes, J. A. | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Adamson, William | De Forest, Baron | Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) |
| Addison, Dr. C | Delany, William | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Hudson, Walter |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Devlin, Joseph | Hughes, S. L. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Dillon, John | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Arnold, Sydney | Donelan, Captain A. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Doris, W. | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Duffy, William J. | John, Edward Thomas |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Barnes, George N. | Elverston, Sir Harold | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) |
| Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) |
| Barton, William | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Joyce, Michael |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Essex, Richard Walter | Keating, M. |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Esslemont, George Birnle | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Bentham, G. J. | Falconer, J. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Farrell, James Patrick | Kilbride, Denis |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | King, Joseph |
| Black, Arthur W. | Ffrench, Peter | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Boland, John Pius | Field, William | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Fitzgibbon, John | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Gill, A. H. | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) |
| Brace, William | Ginnell, L. | Leach, Charles |
| Brady, P. J. | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Glanville, H. J. | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Lundon, T. |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Griffith, Ellis J. | Lynch, A. A. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gulland, John William | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sidney C. (Poplar) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | McGhee, Richard |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hackett, John | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr T. J |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hancock, J. G. | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | M'Kean, John |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Clough, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Martin, Joseph |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hayden, John Patrick | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hazleton, Richard | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Meagher, Michael |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Crooks, William | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Menzies, Sir Waiter |
| Crumley, Patrick | Henry, Sir Charles | Millar, James Duncan |
| Cullinan, John | Higham, John Sharp | Molloy, M. |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Hinds, John | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz |
drawback allowed on exportation."—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 291; Noes, 187.
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southward West) |
| Mooney, J. J. | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford) | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Morgan, George Hay | Pringle, William M. R. | Sutton, John E. |
| Morison, Hector | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Muldoon, John | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. | Reddy, M. | Thomas, J. H. |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Needham, Christopher T. | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Nolan, Joseph | Rendall, Athelstan | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Nuttall, Harry | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Wardle, George J. |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Waring, Walter |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Robinson, Sidney | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| O'Donnell, Thomas | Roch, Walter F. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| O'Dowd, John | Roche, Augustine, Louth) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Ogden, Fred | Roe, Sir Thomas | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| O'Grady, James | Rowlands, James | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow) | Rowntree, Arnold | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| O'Malley, William | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Scanlan, Thomas | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| O'Shee, James John | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| O'Sullivan, Timothy | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Sheehy, David | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Sherwell, Arthur James | Winfrey, Richard |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Shortt, Edward | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Rotherham) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | Yoxall, Sir James Heury |
| Pointer, Joseph | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | |
| Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Snowden, Philip | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | W. Jones and Mr. Webb. |
| Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
NOES.
| ||
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Courthope, George Loyd | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Hewins, William Albert Samuel |
| Baird, J. L. | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hill, Sir Clement L. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hills, John Waller |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hill-Wood, Samuel |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Croft, Henry Page | Hoare, S. J. G. |
| Barnston, H. | Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Hohler, G. F. |
| Barrie, H. T. | Denniss, E. R. B. | Hope, Harry (Bute) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Dixon, C. H. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Doughty, Sir George | Horner, A. L. |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Duke, Henry Edward | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Hume-Williams, W. E. |
| Bigland, Alfred | Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Hunt, Rowland |
| Bird, A. | Fell, Arthur | Hunter, Sir Charles |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Ingleby, Holcombe |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Jessell, Captain H. M. |
| Boyton, J. | Forster, Henry William | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. |
| Bull, Sir William James | Gardner, Ernest | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Kerry, Earl of |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Goldman, C. S. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Butcher, John George | Goldsmith, Frank | Knight, Captain E. A. |
| Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Lane-Fox, G. R. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Larmor, Sir J. |
| Campion, W. R. | Colliding, Edward Alfred | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Greene, W. R. | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Gretton, John | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Cassel, Felix | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Lloyd, G. A. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |
| Cave, George | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hamersley, A. St. George | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee |
| Chambers, J. | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Harris, Henry Percy | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Mackinder, H. J. |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Helmsley, Viscount | Macmaster, Donald |
| M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Rolleston, Sir John | Touche, George Alexander |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Tryon, Capt. George Clement |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Moore, William | Sanders, Robert A. | Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Sanderson, Lancelot | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Mount, William Arthur | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Neville, Reginald J. N. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Newdegate, F. A. | Smith, Harold (Warrington) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Newman, John R. P. | Spear, Sir John Ward | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Newton, Harry Kottingharn | Stanier, Beville | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Nield, Herbert | Starkey, John R. | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Steel-Maitland, A. D. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Stewart, Gershom | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Parkes, Ebenezer | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Swift, Rigby | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Peto, Basil Edward | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) | Younger, Sir George |
| Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) | |
| Pollock, Ernest Murray | Talbot, Lord E. | |
| Price-Jones, Col. E. | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) | Douglas Hall and Mr. Marshall Hall. |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
Government Amendment: At the end of paragraph ( b), in Sub-section (3), after the words last added, to insert the words,
"The Excise Duty on a licence granted to a manufacturer of any article, the amount of which varies either directly or indirectly according to the amount of the article manufactured, shall be treated for the purposes of this
Division No. 336.]
| AYES.
| [9.3 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Chancellor, Henry George | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Fitzgibbon, John |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Clancy, John Joseph | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Adamson, William | Clough, William | Gill, A. H. |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Clynes, John R. | Ginnell, L. |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Glanville, H. J. |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Cotton, William Francis | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Griffith, Ellis J. |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Crooks, William | Gulland, John William |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Crumley, Patrick | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Cullinan, J. | Hackett, John |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Hancock, J. G. |
| Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) |
| Barton, William | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Dawes, J. A. | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | De Forest, Baron | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Bentham, G. J. | Delany, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Devlin, Joseph | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Dillon, John | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Boland, John Pius | Donelan, Captain A. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Doris, William | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Duffy, William J. | Hayward, Evan |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) | Hazleton, Richard |
| Brace, William | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson |
| Brady, P. J. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Elverston, Sir Harold | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Higham, John Sharp |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Hinds, John |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Essex, Richard Walter | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Esslemont, George Birnie | Hodge, John |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Falconer, James | Hogge, James Myles |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Farrell, James Patrick | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Ffrench, Peter | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Field, William | Hudson, Walter |
Sub-section as an Excise Duty on the article manufactured."—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 297; Noes, 101.
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Rowlands, James |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Needham, Christopher T. | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| John, Edward Thomas | Nolan, Joseph | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Nuttall, Harry | Seely, Colonel Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sheehy, David |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Shortt, Edward |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Doherty, Philip | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Keating, Matthew | O'Donnell, Thomas | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | O'Dowd, John | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Ogden, Fred | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Kilbride, Denis | O'Grady, James | Snowden, P. |
| King, Joseph | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | O'Malley, William | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Sutton, John E. |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | O'Shee, James John | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Leach, Charles | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Lundon, Thomas | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Thomas, J. H. |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| McGhee, Richard | Pirie, Duncan Vernon | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Pointer, Joseph | Verney, Sir Harry |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Wadsworth, John |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Power, Patrick Joseph | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Wardle, George J. |
| M'Kean, John | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Waring, Walter |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Pringle, William M. R. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Radford, G. H. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs, Spalding) | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Marks, Sir George Croydon | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Martin, Joseph | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Reddy, Michael | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Whyte, A. F. |
| Meagher, Michael | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Menzies, Sir Walter | Rendall, Athelstan | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Millar, James Duncan | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Molloy, Michael | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Mooney, John J. | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Robinson, Sidney | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Morison, Hector | Roche, Walter F. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | |
| Muldoon, John | Roche, John (Galway, E.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Roe, Sir Thomas | W. Jones and Mr. Webb. |
NOES.
| ||
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Burdett-Coutts, W. | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Burn, Col. C. R. | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) |
| Archer-Shee, Major W. | Butcher, John George | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Croft, Henry Page |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Dalziel, D. (Brixton) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Campion, W. R. | Denniss, E. R. B. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott |
| Banbury, sir Frederick George | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Dixon, C. H. |
| Barnston, H. | Cassel, Felix | Doughty, Sir George |
| Barrie, H. T. | Cave, George | Duke, Henry Edward |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilton) | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Faber, George Denison (Clapham) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Fell, Arthur |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Chambers, James | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert |
| Bigland, Alfred | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes |
| Bird, Alfred | Clyde, James Avon | Fleming, Valentine |
| Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Forster, Henry William |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Foster, Philip Staveley |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid.) | Courthope, George Loyd | Gardner, Ernest |
| Boyton, James | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton |
| Bull, Sir William James | Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Gibbs, George Abraham |
| Goldman, C. S. | Larmor, Sir J. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Lewisham, Viscount | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lloyd, G. A. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Greene, Walter Raymond | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Gretton, John | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Stanler, Beville |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm, Edgbaston) | Starkey, John R. |
| Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Hall, Marshall, (E. Toxteth) | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Hamerstey, Alfred St. George | Mackinder, Halford J. | Swift, Rigby |
| Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Macmaster, Donald | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Magnus, Sir Philip | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Harris, Henry Percy | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, |
| Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Moore, William | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Hill, Sir Clement L. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Hills, J. W. | Mount, William Arthur | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Hill-Wood, Samuel | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Newdegate, F. A. | Walrond, Lionel |
| Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Newman, John R. P. | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Hope, Harry (Bute) | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Nield, Herbert | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Horner, Andrew Long | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis | Parkes, Ebenezer | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Hunt, Rowland | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Hunter, Sir C. R. | Peto, Basil Edward | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Ingleby, Holcombe | Pole-Carrew, Sir R. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Jessell, Captain H. M. | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Remnant, James Farquharson | Younger, Sir George |
| Kerry, Earl of | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Rolleston, Sir John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Viscount Helmsley and Viscount |
| Lane-Fox, G. R. | Rutherford, William (L'pool, W. Derby) | Castlereagh. |
Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Division No. 337.]
| AYES.
| [9.12 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Buckmaster, Stanley O | Dillon, John |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Burke, E. Haviland | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Doris, W. |
| Adamson, William | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Duffy, William J. |
| Addison, Dr Christopher | Buxton, Rt. Hon S. C. (Poplar) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P (Stroud) | Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Arnold, Sydney | Chancellor, H. G. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Chapple Dr. W. A | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N) |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Clancy, John Joseph | Essex, Richard Walter |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E) | Clough, William | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Clynes, J. R | Falconer, J. |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmot (Somerset) | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles |
| Barnes, George N. | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Ffrench, Peter |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A | Field, William |
| Barton, William | Cotton, William Francis | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Fitzgibbon, John |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo) | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Crooks, William | Gill, A. H. |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Crumley, Patrick | Ginnell, L. |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon, Augustine | Cullinan, John | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Glanville, Harold James |
| Boland, John Pius | Davies, Ellis William (Eiffon) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Dawes, J. A. | Griffith, Ellis J. |
| Brace, William | De Forest, Baron | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Delany, William | Gulland, John W. |
| Brocklehurst, w. B. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Devlin, Joseph | Hackett, J. |
The Committee divided: Ayes, 292; Noes, 189.
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Hancock, John George | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale) | Martin, Joseph | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Meagher, Michael | Robinson, Sidney |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Roch, Walter F. |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Millar, James Duncan | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Molloy, M. | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Rowlands, James |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Mooney, John J. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H, L. (Cleveland) |
| Hayward, Evan | Morgan, George Hay | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Hazleton, Richard | Morison, Hector | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Muldoon, John | Sheehy, David |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Murray, Captain Ton. A. C. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Shortt, Edward |
| Higham, John Sharp | Needham, Christopher | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Hinds, John | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitherse) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Nolan, Joseph | Smith, H. B. (Northampton) |
| Hodge, John | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Hogge, James Myles | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Snowden, P. |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | Nuttall, Harry | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southward, West) |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Hughes, S. L. | O'Doherty, Philip | Sutton, John E. |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Donnell, Thomas | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rugus | O'Dowd, John | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Ogden, Fred | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| John, Edward Thomas | O'Grady, James | Tennant, Harold John |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Thomas, James Henry |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Malley, William | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn. (T.H'mts, Stepney) | O'Shee, James John | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Wadsworth, John |
| Keating, M. | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Parker, James (Halifax) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Wardle, G. J. |
| Kilbride, Dennis | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Waring, Walter |
| King, J. | Philippe, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Pointer, Joseph | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Power, Patrick Joseph | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Leach, Charles | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Lundon, T. | Pringle, William M. R. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Radford, G. H. | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Lynch, A. A. | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| McGhee, Richard | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Rea, Walter Russell (Sarborough) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Reddy, M. | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | |
| M'Kean, John | Rendall, Athelstan | |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| M'Laren, Hon, H. D. (Leics.) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | W. Jones and Mr. Webb. |
| M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
NOES.
| ||
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Beresford, Lord Charles | Cassel, Felix |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Bigland, Alfred | Castlereagh, Viscount |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Cave, George |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Boyton, James | Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Bull, Sir William James | Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Burdett-Coutts, W. | Chambers, J. |
| Barnston, Harry | Burn, Col. C. R. | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender |
| Barrie, H. T. | Butcher, J. G. | Clive, Captain Percy Archer |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts Wilton) | Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Clyde, James Avon |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Campion, W. R. | Cooper, Richard Ashmole |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Courthope, George Loyd |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hunt, Rowland | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hunter, Sir C. R. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Croft, Henry Page | Ingleby, Holcombe | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Kerry, Earl of | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Knight, Captain E. A. | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Fell, Arthur | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Larmor, Sir J. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Forster, Henry William | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mills End) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Lewisham, Viscount | Stanier, Seville |
| Gardner, Ernest | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Gastrell, Major W. H. | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Goldman, C. S. | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lieut.-Colonel A. R. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Swift, Rigby |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Greene, Walter Raymond | Mackinder, Halford J. | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Gretton, John | Macmaster, Donald | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Magnus, Sir Philip | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Touche, George Alexander |
| Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Moore, William | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Mount, William Arthur | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Neville, Reginald J. N. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Harris, Henry Percy | Newdegate, F. A. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Newman, John R. P. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Helmsley, Viscount | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Nield, Herbert | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Hill, Sir Clement L. | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Hills, J. W. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Hill-Wood, Samuel | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Hoare, S. J. G. | Parkes, Ebenezer | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Hohler, G. F. | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Younger, Sir George |
| Hope, Harry (Bute) | Peto, Basil Edward | |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Pirie, Duncan V. | |
| Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Pole-Carew, Sir R | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Horner, Andrew Long | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Bird and Mr. Fetherstonhaugh. |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
May I say that I voted in the "No" Lobby. My name is down in the Division list, and the Division list does not agree with the numbers now declared.
Do both tellers agree to the statement of the hon. Member?
I am perfectly agreeable.
Noes to the left, 190; the Ayes have it.
Clause 17—(Supplemental Provisions As To Transferred Sum And Irish Revenue)
(1) The Transferred Sum shall be paid to the Irish Exchequer at such times and in such manner and according to such regulations as the Joint Exchequer Board may direct.
(2) In the event of the reduction or discontinuance of any Imperial tax by the Irish Parliament, the Transferred Sum shall be reduced in each financial year by such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the amount by which the proceeds of the tax are diminished in that year in consequence of the reduction or discontinuance.
(3) In in any financial year the proceeds of any Irish tax imposed as an addition to any Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax (other than a Customs Duty on beer or spirits), or to any duty of Income Tax so levied, or to any Death Duty so levied, exceed one-tenth of the proceeds in Ireland of that duty as levied as an Imperial tax for the same period, the amount of the excess shall not be treated for the purposes of this Act as part of the proceeds of the Irish tax, and the amount payable to the Irish Exchequer in respect of the proceeds of the Irish tax shall be reduced accordingly:
Provided that—
(4) When any reserved service is transferred from the Government of the United Kingdom to the Government of Ireland, the Transferred Sum shall be increased by such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the equivalent of any saving to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom by reason of the transfer, and in determining that equivalent regard shall be had to the prospect of any increase or decrease in the cost of that service which may be expected to arise from causes not being matters of administration.
The sum by which the Transferred Sum is to be increased in pursuance of this provision may be fixed by the Joint Exchequer Board so as to vary during the first ten years after the transfer, but subject thereto shall be a definite sum.
On a point of Order. Can you tell us, Sir, exactly how many Clauses have to be passed under the guillotine in the next hour and a half? [An HON. MEMBEK: "An hour and eight minutes."]
I do not think that is a point of Order; at any rate, it does not now arise.
Is it not necessary that we should know how we can allocate this hour in order to get the best possible results?
That is not a point of Order. Under the Order of the House a time-table is set up and must be carried through.
May I ask whether it is within your cognisance at the time the guillotine falls what the Question to be put will be?
If a point of Order arises at 10.30 it will be dealt with by whoever is in the Chair. If it arises when I am here I am quite prepared to deal with it at that time.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (l), at the beginning, to insert the words, "After deducting from the Transferred Sum any charges which, pursuant to this Act, are to be, or may be, made on the Transferred Sum, the balance of."
In moving this Amendment, I desire to protest against the absurdly short time which is left to us to discuss five Clauses of the Bill. The guillotine falls at 10.30, and we have got just over an hour to discuss all five Clauses, which are of the greatest importance, and which I think the Committee—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hurry up."]Hurry up yourselves.
We have only a few minutes, and you keep shouting like a lot of jackals. If you want trouble, ask for it.
We have a very short time in which to discuss these Clauses, and I hope lion. Members opposite will give us an opportunity in the very short time that remains to us to debate them. I am absolutely certain that nearly the whole of these five Clauses will be passed without discussion and without a word having been said either in favour of or against the proposals which they contain. I maintain that it is really reducing the proceedings to farce and absurdity to ask us to discuss the whole of these Clauses and five and a half pages of Amendments in the time allotted to us this evening. The object of the Amendment which I am moving is to make it absolutely clear that certain deductions have to be made from the Transferred Sum before that sum is transferred to the Irish Exchequer. If my Amendment is accepted, the amended Clause will not add a single penny to the deductions which will be made by the Imperial Exchequer, nor will it take a single penny from the sum which the Irish Exchequer will receive. We are only making absolutely clear that the Transferred Sum is not exactly the same as the actual cash payment which the Irish Exchequer is going to receive. It will show that certain deductions have to be made and that the payments which have to be made under the provisions of the Bill will form the first charge upon the Transferred Sum and the first charge upon the sum which would stand to the credit of the Irish Exchequer, and until those deductions have been made nothing could be paid to the Irish Exchequer. The Irish Exchequer with regard to this sum is nearly in the same position as a deposit contributor under the National Insurance Act. A deposit contributor under that Act has certain sums standing to his credit at the Post Office consisting of his own and his employer's contributions, and the contributions of the State, but he cannot draw the whole of the amount which stands to his credit as certain deductions have to be made and certain charges have to be met, for instance, for medical benefit, sanatorium benefit, and management expenses. I say that the Irish Exchequer is really in exactly the same position. They cannot draw the whole of the cash amount which stands to their credit until certain charges have been met. There is one very important difference in their case, and that is that the Irish Government can draw £2,000,000 more benefit than the Irish people have actually paid for. That is different from the case of the deposit contributor.
The Transferred Sum consists in the first place of the Irish services, that is to say, the cost of the Irish services or the actual amount which has been saved to the Imperial Exchequer by the transfer of those services. In the second place it consists of the subsidy of £500,000 which eventually will be reduced to £200,000, and further consists of any reserve services which subsequently may be transferred to the Irish Parliament. I believe it is the intention of the Government that those deductions should be made first, and that the sum should then be paid ever to the Irish Exchequer. That is by no means clear in the Bill, and I understand that the opinion prevails very largely that this sum is going to be paid over to the Irish Exchequer, and then subsequently the Imperial Government can send in its claim to the Irish Government for the cost of the services which are to be paid by the Irish Government to the Imperial Government. If my Amendment is accepted it will be perfectly clear that those deductions will have to be made first. I should like to point out that a very large number of prior charges have to be made under the Bill. For instance, under Clause 18 all charges under the Land Purchase Acts which now fall on the guarantee fund will come out of this Transferred Sum. Under Clause 20 all existing charges on the Irish Church Temporalities Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum. Under Clause 31, £5,000 will have to be contributed out of this fund towards the salary of the Lord Lieutenant. Under Clause 32 it is provided that the pension and salary of the existing judges and Civil servants, and the superannuation and other allowances of unestablished Civil servants shall be paid out of this Transferred Sum. Clause 23 provides that if a loan is raised by the Irish Parliament on the Transferred Sum, a sum shall be deducted representing the cost of management sinking fund and interest. The Committee ought to remember that after six years, when the Irish Constabulary is transferred to the Irish Government, an increased deduction will have to be made for the pension of the Constabulary. I think we were told the other day that that deduction will amount to no less than £400,000. Another deduction is not only possible, but probable. When the Irish Parliament reduces or discontinues a tax, the loss which that reduction or discontinuance involves will also be deducted from the Transferred Sum. At the present moment we have not got really any knowledge and we have not been told to what amount that Transferred Sum will really come. I maintain we ought to know not only what the deductions are going to be, but the actual amount of the cash balance which is going to be handed over to the Irish Exchequer. At present this Transferred Sum is to amount to £6,100,000. The Prime Minister told us the other day that a certain number of these deductions amounted to £300,000. That is to say, £5,800,000 is going to be handed over to the Irish Exchequer. In six years you are going to add £400,000 to that. Therefore the amount of the deduction which we know of in six years time will amount to £700,000, so that instead of handing over £7,300,000, which would be the sum at that time, the amount which you are actually going to hand over of cash, totals only £6,600,000. I have only up to the present been dealing with deductions which we know of, that is to say those which the Prime Minister mentioned in answer to questions the other day. There are certain other deductions which will be made, and which we cannot possibly estimate at the present moment. Deductions will have to be made when a tax is reduced by the Irish Parliament, and deductions will have to be made when land annuities are not paid, and deduc- tions will have to be made when a loan is raised by the Irish Parliament. We have no information, and we cannot tell at the present moment what will be the actual sum handed over to the Irish Parliament. It is necessary that we should make it perfectly clear in the Bill that these deductions have to be made before the Transferred Sum is handed over to the Irish Parliament. It is all the more necessary because in the Bill of 1893 the whole of the charges which were to be made on the Irish Consolidated Fund were collected into one Clause. Clause 14 of the Bill of 1893 said:— "There shall be charged on the Irish Consolidated Fund in favour of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom as a first charge on that fund all such sums which—" and then comes a list of the sums which have to be charged on the Irish Consolidated Fund. By this proposal we should obtain practically the same result. I hope the Government will accept the Amendment, because, after all, it only expresses what they have often told us is their intention.The hon. Member, by his speech, has made perfectly apparent to the Committee the object he has in view. He stated at the outset of his remarks that the Amendment, if inserted, would, as a matter of fact, make no difference at all to the finances, neither adding anything to nor deducting anything from the sum payable to the Irish Parliament; and that, in fact, it was nothing more than a drafting Amendment. In our opinion it is not an improvement on the present drafting, for reasons which I shall give. In the first instance, I must quarrel with the hon. Member on one point. He made a comparison between our proposals with regard to deductions from the Transferred Sum and the position of a deposit contributor under the Insurance Act. He said that there was this difference, that while the deposit contributor gets the sums he has paid in, the Irish Government will receive in the Transferred Sum £2,000,000 benefit more than they have paid for. That is not so, if he takes into account all the expenditure upon Irish purposes. In the Transferred Sum and in the reserved services it is true there is a margin of £2,000,000 which Irish taxes do not pay for. But if he is dealing with the Transferred Sum, and that is the purpose of his Amendment, the case is just the opposite. Irishmen will be paying £3,000,000 more than they will get back in the Transferred Sum, because Irish taxes amount to over £9,000,000 and the Transferred Sum to only £6,000,000, every penny of which will consist of Irish money. There is nothing in the Transferred Sum from the British taxpayer's pocket at all.
It is a point of importance, because we are often told that the Irish Parliament will have at their disposal a great deal of British money over which we have no control. I am pointing out, as I pointed out on the First Heading of the Bill, that as far as the Transferred Sum is concerned it might more correctly be termed a re-transferred sum, and we might have adopted machinery for the payment of it direct into the Irish Exchequer instead of its coming to our Exchequer first and then being repaid to Dublin. The hon. Member says that our intention that certain sums should be deducted from the Transferred Sum before it is paid over is not made clear in the Bill. But he himself read several Clauses dealing with this point, and pointed out that Clause by Clause the Bill does distinctly in terms provide that certain sums shall be deducted from the Transferred Sum. For instance, Clause 17 (2) says that if the Irish Parliament reduces taxation the Transferred Sum shall be reduced in each year by such sum as may be determined to represent the amount of the loss through that reduction of taxation. Clause 18 states that if there is a failure in the payment of land purchase annuities such arrears which would under the Land Purchase Acts have been made good out of the Guarantee Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act. Clause 20 provides that the deficit on the Irish Church Temporalities Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum. And so in each Clause through the Bill it is made clear beyond all possibility of mistake under what heads sums are to be deducted from the Transferred Sum. The hon. Member said that we ought to have followed the Bill of 1893 and collected all these matters into one Clause. The Bill of 1893 proceeded on different principles. There the taxes were paid into an Irish fund and special provision had to be made in a special Clause, for, so to speak, taking away from the control of Irish Departments certain sums which were to be deducted from them. We proceed on a different principle, and the same necessity does not arise. Even if the Amendment were accepted, it would not have the effect which the hon. Member desires, because it would merely be stated in this one Clause that the Transferred Sum was to be paid over, subject to certain deductions, but it would not bring together into one Clause, as the hon. Member desires the various deductions which would have to be made. Perhaps this is a convenient opportunity for stating very briefly how the position stands with regard to these deductions. The Prime Minister, a few days ago, gave an answer to an hon. Member opposite in which he stated, so far as can now be ascertained, what these deductions would be under the Bill as it stands. There are certain Amendments in the name of my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary which will increase by about £100,000 certain charges for the benefit of Irish Civil servants who may retire under the Bill. They will make the sum £380,000 instead of £280,000. But that amount is problematical, because we do not really know how many Civil servants will retire. That, however, is the Treasury Estimate. I ought to point out that this does not mean that the surplus in the hands of the Irish Government will be reduced by £280,000 or £380,000. Not at all; because these deductions come off both sides of the account. Let me give an instance. Take, for example, the pension of an Irish judge—which is charged on the Consolidated Fund, and will be secured on the Transferred Sum paid by the Treasury here and deducted from the Transferred Sum. It is true that the Transferred Sum will be reduced by £2,000, or whatever it may be; but, on the other side of the account, the judge's pension is part of the existing cost of Irish government, or its equivalent. Such pensions are now part of the cost within the meaning of the Bill of Irish services transferred to the Irish Government. Therefore, although the Transferred sum will be reduced by this amount, and the Irish Parliament will have less money by £2,000 or £3,000, on the other side the expenses that they would be called upon to bear in respect of Irish services will be reduced by an equivalent sum. The surplus of £500,000 at the outset, reducible after a certain number of years to £200,000, is a net surplus. There may be some small reductions, but these considerable sums are not reductions from the surplus in the hands of the Irish Government. Similarly the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment said that when the constabulary are transferred to the Irish Government, there will be an additional sum of about £400,000 to be deducted from the Transferred Sum in respect of the Irish Constabulary pensions. That is true. On the other hand, there would be that amount of £1,400,000, if the constabuary costs the same as now, to be added to the Transferred Sum in respect of the cost of the constabulary generally. As the Committee knows, when the service goes over to the Irish Government the money to pay for that service, which now has to be paid out of the Exchequer, will be added to the Transferred Sum, which will make that difference to the Imperial Treasury. What money is being paid out in respect to the constabulary will be handed over to the Irish Government when they take over the constabulary. If the cost of the constabulary is, say, £1,000,000 general expenses, and £400,000 for existing pensions, the Irish Government at the outset will receive £400,000, in a way saved on the pensions. They would receive it in the Transferred Sum to be added to the existing £1,400,000, and per contra the existing pensions, amounting to £400,000, will be deducted from the Transferred Sum, and so the Irish Exchequer would have in hand £1,000,000 to pay the wages, while the Imperial Exchequer would be debited, for the time being, with £400,000 to pay the pension list. I hope that that is clear. As the pensioners die off and new pensioners come on, so the deduction from the Transferred Sum will be less and the Transferred Sum proportionately increased. The hon. Member asked how much the deductions would be. The Treasury have made a very careful inquiry as to the sums, and we have given the Committee all the information in our possession. As the hon. Member has said himself, there are certain duties in respect of which we have not given figures. It is not possible for any figures to be given by anyone, because there are deductions which will depend upon the future actions of the Irish Government. The Transferred Sum is to be reduced if the Irish Parliament repeals taxes. If they reduce one of the duties, and there is £100,000 loss to the Exchequer, the Transferred Sum will be reduced b5' £100,000. It will be obvious to the hon. Member that we cannot give any estimate now of what that sum may be. It must necessarily depend upon whether or not the Irish Parliament reduce taxes, and to what extent they will in the future reduce taxes. If they do not reduce taxes there would be no reduction in that. Similarly in regard to charges for loans. If the Irish Government raise a loan, and the interest on the Sinking Fund are secured on the Transferred Sum pro tanto, the Transferred Sum will be reduced—we cannot say how much, because we do not know whether the Irish Parliament will raise any loans, and to what extent. Further, in regard to any default in the payment of land purchased annuities. At present the default is extremely little. Last year the figure was £4,700, which is a remarkably creditable figure to the Irish purchasers under the Land Purchase Act, in which such large purchase sums are involved. There is every reason to hope that the honesty which has distinguished the Irish peasantry for so long will not disappear under Home Rule, and that the deductions will not be considerable under this head. It is impossible for anyone to estimate what the deductions may be. I would point out under the head of Irish land purchase that the British taxpayer now has much better security than ever before against loss owing to the failure of the Irish peasantry to repay the sums due from them, because while now you are only allowed to make deductions on certain heads of revenue, which it would be difficult to make deductions from in the future, we have a lien upon the whole Irish Transferred Sum amounting to over £6,000,000 per year. Therefore it is obvious that the security of the British taxpayer from that point of view is very greatly increased. The Amendment of the hon. Member has given me the opportunity of making this statement. In itself it is only part of the Amendment, but, in the opinion of the draftsman, and in our opinion, the Amendment is not a good one. It merely has the effect of stating twice over what is already stated in the Bill. I hope the Committee therefore will not accept it.The speech of the right hon. Gentleman has made it quite evident to the Committee how grossly inadequate is the time at our disposal. The right hon. Gentleman has stated that this is only a drafting Amendment, but the time he has occupied in disposing of it is a very good index as to the character of the Amendments which we are prepared to suggest to this Clause of the Bill. Although it is quite true that in form it is merely a drafting Amendment, it raises a real point of substance, and one which I want to be present to the minds of the Committee. I will put it as shortly as I can. In this Bill there is a certain sum of money which is to be transferred to the Irish Parliament. It is the cost of running the transferred services in Ireland. In the Govenment's White Paper it is estimated that there will be a surplus for the Irish Parliament, so to speak, over the cost of these transferred services of, roughly speaking, half a million. The Transferred Sum is set out in the Government's White Paper at £6,127,000—to be strictly accurate. I want the Committee to realise that this is purely a book figure. It has no existence in fact, and never will have. The Transferred Sum is something quite different from the transferred cash. The transferred cash which is going to be handed over to the Irish Parliament is a very much less figure, a quite different figure from the £6,127,000. As a matter of fact, we now learn from the right hon. Gentleman that the sum of £380,000 is to be deducted from that Transferred Sum as it stands in the first year—and remember that is the highest figure! That is with the inclusion of £500,000; not a diminished amount. The £380,000 is to be deducted from that Transferred Sum in respect of those prior charges. That brings is to £5,747,000, which is the amount of the transferred cash.
What has the Irish Government got to put against that? Against that the Irish Government has got to spend £5,462,000 on the transferred services, and £246,000 to make up the loss on the Post Office. This is a total of £5,708,000 for Irish services. If you set that figure of £5,708,000 against the figure of £5,747,000, which is the amount of the transferred cash, as distinguished from the Transferred Sum, you get the surplus that the Irish Government will realise in the first financial year, as not the £500,000 set out m the Government's White Paper, but £39,000. It is true that the right hon. Gentleman said, "Oh, against that you have set savings which are effected in the cost of the Irish services." Yes, but that does not amount either to the whole or anything like the whole of these deductions, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that very well. In the matter of the deductions he took a single instance and compared the salary-or rather the pension, of an Irish judge. But there are several items in this sum which the right hon. Gentleman himself confessed in his closing sentences as not only having not been estimated by the Government, but he said they could not be estimated by the Government.All those sums, amounting to £380,000, which the hon. Gentleman has deducted from one side, also go to the other side.
As to that I join issue with the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think that that is so. I understood that the £380,000 includes superannuation and other allowances for the existing Irish unestablished Civil servants. He told us that that is being increased by £100,000. The right hon. Gentleman himself said that is an increase over the sum stated in the original figures which are given in the Government White Paper.
There will be an increase on the other side of the account.
Then I think it is quite time that the Government issued an amended White Paper. It is quite time we had a clear statement as to how this amount is going to be spent because the right hon. Gentleman tells the Committee, at a time when there is no possibility of discussing it, that the Government have resolved to put down Amendments which will have the effect of increasing this deduction by £100,000, and he told us to take it from him ex cathedra that there is to be a corresponding reduction. I want to see the figures. The right hon. Gentleman has, of course, acknowledged that there are considerable reductions from the sums which have been estimated; and again, under Clause 17, Sub-section (2), there is possible deduction on account of the reduction of taxation by the Irish Parliament. There is deduction under Clause 18 in respect of land purchase, under Clause 23 in respect of loans, and under Clauses 35 and 37 in respect of the Irish Constabulary. All these are deductions which cannot be estimated at the present moment, because we have not got the figures, and I suggest that apart from the disgraceful injustice of asking us to discuss this matter in the circumstances under which we are labouring now, the Government ought to produce their figures at the earliest possible moment and in the clearest possible manner.
10.0 P.M.
Of the few minutes remaining to us I desire only to monopolise two or three, to remind the Committee that the part of Ireland from which I come has not the slightest intention of accepting this Clause, either with or without this Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend behind me. [At this point cheers were raised by hon. Members as the result of the Bow and Bromley By-election became known.] I thought at first that the cheers which came from my hon. Friends behind me had reference to something I was saying, but I understand now they were due to something which has happened pleasing to those on this side of the House, but that has really very little bearing on the Amendment and still less on the Bill before the House. I only rose to say, with reference to this Amendment and to the whole Bill, what has often been said before by my colleagues and myself, that we in Ulster in no circumstances intend ever to take this Bill, but the disgraceful circumstances by which five Clauses are proposed to be pushed through the House in four or five minutes under an hour intensifies that determination a hundredfold to resist this Bill. I say the Government is behaving in a most disgraceful way. They promised us three hours for the discussion of five Clauses, but we get, as a matter of fact, less than one hour, and out of that the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General has occupied sixteen or seventeen minutes. There are five Clauses for discussion and five or six pages of Amendments. I say if ever the Unionist party in this country were justified in its determined opposition to this Bill, and if ever we in Ulster were justified to have nothing to do with this Bill, and never to allow this Bill to take root in Ulster, we are justified a hundredfold by what has happened to-night.
It has been contended that this is a drafting Amendment. I agree that it is, but a question of drafting may be extremely important, and may involve the question whether something is to be a first or second charge, and as many millions are involved in this matter I think we are at least entitled to the presence of one of the Law Officers of the Crown. If the right hon. Gentleman opposite will look at the Amendment he will see that he has not dealt with the point made by my right hon. Friend. The point made by my right hon. Friend was that under the Bill as drafted it is not clear—I think it is rather clear the other way—that the deductions have to be made before the sum is paid to the Irish Exchequer. The deductions under the Bill as drafted are only to be made after the sum is paid to the Irish Exchequer. You have to look, in the first place, to the definitions of the Transferred Sum under Clause 14. Clause 14 defines the sum as including three items mentioned in that Clause. Then you come to Clause 17, which says that "the Transferred Sum as so defined shall be paid over to the Irish Exchequer." It is quite true that Subsection (2) contains the provision about reducing the Transferred Sum. I quite agree that that reduction would have to be made before the Transferred Sum is paid over to the Irish Exchequer. That is quite true. Supposing it were £6,100,000, and the reduction to be made was £100,000, the sum to be paid to the Irish Exchequer is then £6,000,000, but we have an entirely different thing when we come to the deductions. When you come to the Clauses dealing with the deductions—for example, Clause 32—you find at the end of the Clause, Sub-section (1), these words:—
"All sums so paid shall be made good by means of the deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act in accordance with the Regulations made by the Treasury." The point my hon. Friend made is this, that you have this difference in language, and that the Courts will always consider that where the Legislature makes a difference in language they intend some difference. I quite agree that that may be a mistake on the part of the Courts, but the Courts always assume that when the Legislature expresses a thing in different language they intend some difference, so in one case the words occur that the Transferred Sum is to be reduced by a certain sum before you pay it over to the Irish Exchequer, but when once you pay it under Clause 16 you make a deduction under Clauses 32 and 33, and it is nowhere clear that these deductions have to be made before the sum is paid over to the Irish Exchequer. If I understood my hon. Friend aright, the point he wanted to bring forward is that these deductions should be made clear before and not after.How can you deduct it after?
It would be perfectly easy to pay the constabulary out of it after the deduction. I do not say that is the intention of the Government, but they have unintentionally differentiated the language in the two Clauses in such a way that I think my hon. Friend was perfectly right in asking that this Amendment should be accepted, which makes a very important point clear. If you look at Clause 23, there again you have the words "requisite part of the Transferred Sum." Does the Transferred Sum mean before or after the deduction? If it was right that the deduction had to be made before you arrive at the Transferred Sum, the deduction would have to be made before you paid interest and sinking fund on the loan. I think the matter is left in doubt and obscurity, and I submit it would be only reasonable on the part of the Government to adopt a drafting Amendment, which cannot, in any event, do them any harm.
I desire, in the first place, to enter my protest against the way in which we are being treated over these important Financial Clauses. Of course, I perfectly well understand, after what has happened during the last two or three days, that the Government are only anxious to reach half-past ten in order to get rid of the remaining Clauses which set up this ridiculous system of finance. I venture to think that in the whole history of Parliament we have never had such a grave public scandal as that which has happened to-night and is happening upon these Clauses. As regards these five Clauses, we are given from 9.20 to 10.30 to discuss them, and we should not even have had that time had it not been that the Government themselves refused to move their own Amendments for fear that the whole of the time allotted would be used up, and that no time would be left for saying one word about these five Clauses. Is that not reducing Parliamentary procedure to a farce? They tell us that they will move Amendments; they employ the draftsman, I suppose, to draft them and solemnly put them on the Paper, and then when the time comes for them to be moved they say, "We cannot move them, however necessary they may be, because we have allowed so little time by the guillotine that it would be demonstrating the farce we are asking to be carried out by the House if we did not, leave some little time for the process." Anything more aggravating to an Opposition it is impossible to imagine. In point of fact, the one thing the Government have tried to do ever since this Bill came into Committee is to try and aggravate the Opposition by the tyranny and cowardice they have shown in debate. I suppose they think it is a very brave thing to have the guillotine falling at 10.30 to night, because by reason of that they get rid of five very awkward and very important Clauses in this Bill. There is no act of bravery in it at all, for it is an act of pure cowardice. I should have thought that we had had enough of this kind of thing after the example of the Insurance Act last year. When the Insurance Act was being discussed the Government were warned over and over again—
I did not take objection to the right hon. Gentleman opening his remarks in the way he did, but he must not proceed in that way because that is not allowed by the order of the House, and he cannot go back.
May I remind you, Mr. Chairman, of a precedent last year when the Government were dealing with the Insurance Act in a way almost as scandalous as to-night. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] On that occasion, when Mr. Speaker was in the Chair on Report, I made for a quarter of an hour precisely the same kind of speech as my right hon. Friend has made with the sanction of Mr. Speaker.
Yes, I know that the Chair does allow a little latitude, but that latitude should not be abused. We are now in process of discussing an Amendment. As I said before, I did not interfere with the right hon. Gentleman until he was proceeding to discuss the action of the House in a preceding Session.
Considering the time we have got, it is impossible that anybody could be confined to the mere Amendment before the House, because it would be utterly futile. My experience of the guillotine in this House is that necessarily very great latitude has to be given, otherwise the questions which are put off from time to time would never be answered at all. We are told, "Wait till you come to Clause 17, 18, 19, or 20," and when we come to them, and when we come to the time allotted to them, we find that we cannot discuss any of them. How am I to deal with that situation? Do you not know, Mr. Whitley, as well as anybody else that it is scandalous? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order."] The truth of the matter is that we are coming to the end of Parliamentary government altogether. To-night demonstrates the wreckage of this House, the wreckage of debate in it, and the mere pantomime that goes on here when you are asked in these few minutes to discuss elaborate Clauses of this kind. I suppose that the Government have made up their minds to look upon this Bill as a reality, although from what has occurred from day to day I am inclined to doubt it; but if they do look upon it as a reality—and if the Bill comes into force next year or the year after, and so far as I am concerned the sooner the better, so that we can get to real work—I predict that what the Government will do will be to appoint Home Rule lecturers. This is the new style of legislation. It does not matter one bit whether any single individual in the House understands a line of this complicated finance or not. The Postmaster-General made a speech on what he said was merely a drafting Amendment, and I suppose he was in earnest when he said that. How long did he take to deal with the drafting Amendment? He took twenty minutes. I listened to him myself. The right hon. Gentleman generally makes a clear statement, and if the matter could be made clear it would be made clear by him. I must say, however, that a more complicated, involved and difficult statement to follow has never been placed before the House. If any hon. Member were honestly to get up and express his opinion on that statement, he would have to say that he did not understand one single word of what the Postmaster-General was talking about. That is the way we have to deal with a drafting Amendment.
What are all the other points which are not going to be discussed at all and which are not drafting Amendments? There is the difficulty of estimating the Irish taxes. In Clause 17 the 10 per cent. limit comes in and the whole question of adding to the Imperial taxes and the way it has to be done, and in this Clause the Joint Exchequer Board is set up. Nevertheless, we have not had a single discussion upon that subject. Then there are the credits to the Transferred Sum in respect to the transferred and reserved services, and we are not to have a word about them. Clause 18 deals with the Guarantee Fund under the Irish Land Purchase Acts, Clause 19 deals with the Development Fund and the Road Improvement Grant, Clause 20 deals with the Irish Church Temporalities Fund, Clause 21 deals with the audit and the Irish Exchequer, and every one of these matters has to go without a single word. I suppose some time afterwards it will be solemnly said that this Bill passed the House of Commons. There are not twenty Members in the House of Commons who know any single fact in connection with these. Clauses, and they do not care. Their lives depend upon passing them; that is all they know, and so they pass them. This is not passing legislation by the House of Commons at all. It is passing legislation put forward by the Government, allocating time, not in proportion to the importance of the subject in hand, but to the political exigencies of a coalition majority. What does the Postmaster-General confess in relation to this matter? That he cannot tell us even now what are the charges upon the Transferred Sum. Here we are just going to pass this within a quarter of an hour and there is nobody who knows what the charges are and nobody can estimate them, and the right hon. Gentleman says by reason of Amendments put down by the Government there is a hundred thousand a year added to the sums that are to be taken from the Transferred Sum. A hundred thousand a year has never been discussed at all! What does it matter?We have not reached the Clause.
"We have not reached the Clause." Why, that is becoming as common in this House as the "Wait and see" period. I put it to the Government: Surely, if they are earnest over this Bill, when they find there is genuinely no time for discussing important provisions, there ought to be some way in which they are able to get over the Closure, and enable, at all events, the important matters in these Clauses to be discussed. Is there anybody in the Government at all who cares about these things? Where is the Prime Minister? Where was he yesterday? He was not here yesterday; he has not been here to-day. [An HON. MEMBER: "He has voted in the Divisions."] This shows the extent of the demoralisation. An hon. Member opposite thinks that in an important case of this kind, the only duty the Prime Minister owes to the House is that he should be here in the Divisions. He ought to be here at a time when the House of Commons is really being wrecked by these means.
Why does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman discuss the Amendment?
Does the hon. Gentleman think that is an interruption on a point of Order, or is it an interruption made just to suit his purpose? It does not very much matter. The hon. Gentleman knows very well you could not discuss this Amendment in the time. He only makes that exclamation for the sake of saying something—something which is not in the least relevant. Suppose at this moment you divide, and the House negatives these words, what then! The House knows perfectly well there is no time for any other Amendment. Look at the way in which the House is being treated. We are passing five important Clauses in an hour and five minutes, and the Prime Minister does not even come down here. They are financial Clauses, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here. Neither is the Chief Secretary here. All these right hon. Gentlemen are supposed to have some interest in this Bill, but presumably they have not been able to master the details of the fantastic provisions as explained in the clear statement of the Postmaster-General. For my part, these proceedings this evening have taken away any pretence about the reality of the Bill. I doubt if there is a single hon. Member who understands anything about these proposals, or who can translate the meaning of the Postmaster-General.
I am quite willing to give way to the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson), who, judging from his interruptions, is quite capable of discussing the Amendment. But as he does not rise, I only want to make one very short observation indeed. I only want to point out that an Act of Parliament becomes an Act and carries weight with it in the country because it has the full sanction of full and free debate in the House. But the Government are passing this through without even this ordinary sanction. One Member of the Government at the last election—as a matter of Radical bluff on the hustings—said the Bill would be forced on the people of Ulster by British bayonets. Are you still going to force this Bill on Ulster people by British bayonets when you will not allow the representatives of the people to discuss a word of it? I shall be glad to give way to the Prime Minister, who has just entered the Chamber, if he wants to defend the action of the Government. The Prime Minister has not been in the House to-night to hear the arguments. I understand from one of his devoted followers that he has been in the Division Lobby. That is his idea of his duty to the House of Commons. Owing to his absence he probably does not know that under his precious time table, and in consequence of the Amendments put down by his colleagues on the Front Bench, we on this side of the Committee have been allowed one hour and ten minutes to discuss five Clauses of the Bill. I ask the Prime Minister whether he approves of that, or will he give us further time, which I think we are entitled to as a matter of reason, to discuss these Clauses? If he does not do so, they will go through without a word being said upon them.
Before the Prime Minister came in I was asking if, when five important Clauses of this Bill are thrust through without one word being said upon them, debate being prevented by the Government Amendments, it was an Act of Parliament which was going to be thrust by force upon a loyal section of the people of this country. I say the thing is so monstrous that I believe if the Prime Minister had been in full possession of the facts he would have got up, and, with the reasonableness which sometimes distinguishes
Division No. 338.]
| AYES.
| [10.30 p.m.
|
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Cave, George | Gardner, Ernest |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gastrell, Major W. H. |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Gibbs, G. A. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Goldman, C. S. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Chambers, James | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Baicarres, Lord | Clyde, J. Avon | Greene, Walter Raymond |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Gretton, John |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Courthope, George Loyd | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) |
| Barnston, Harry | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Haddock, George Bahr |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Craig, Captain James (Downe, E.) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Craik, Sir Henry | Hamersley, Alfred St. George |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Cripps, Sir C. A. | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Croft, Henry Page | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence |
| Bigland, Alfred | Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Harris, Henry Percy |
| Bird, A. | Denniss, E. R. B. | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Dixon, Charles Harvey | Henderson, Major H. (Berks) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Doughty, Sir George | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) |
| Boyton, James | Duke, Henry Edward | Hewins, William Albert Samuel |
| Bull, Sir William James | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Hickman, Colonel T. E. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Hill, Sir Clement L. |
| Butcher, J. G. | Fell, Arthur | Hills, John Waller |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Hill-Wood, Samuel |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Hoare, S. J. G. |
| Campion, W. R. | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Hohler, G. F. |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Fleming, Valentine | Hope, Harry (Bute) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Forster, Henry William | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Foster, Philip Staveley | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |
him, said that he would extend the timetable. I hope he will yet do it. This is a state of affairs which is the guillotine run mad. It is absolutely intolerable. As my right hon. Friend said just now, not half a dozen Members on the Government side can tell us what is the subject-matter of these five Clauses. They are perfectly satisfied as long as there is a sufficient number to attend in the Division Lobby, as the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson) said. That is the whole duty of man. I ask, when you have Bills put through this House and transformed into Acts of Parliament by brute majorities, without debate, what sanction can they have? So far as I am concerned, I say here, what hundreds of loyal people have said at home, that if anything would add to our intention to resist this Bill by all the means in our power if ever, by a great disaster, it comes into operation, it is the events that have occurred to-night, and the fact that we have not been able to debate these Clauses. It is only part of the unfairness, the deliberate unfairness, of His Majesty's Government.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 314.
| Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Moore, William | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Horner, A, L. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Stanier, Beville |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Mount, William Arthur | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Hunt, Rowland | Newdegate, F. A. | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Newman, John R. P. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Ingleby, Holcombe | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Stewart, Gershom |
| Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.) |
| Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Norton-Griffiths, J. | Swift, Rigby |
| Joynson-Hicks, William | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Sykes, Allan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Kerry, Earl of | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Kimber, Sir Henry | Parkes, Ebenezer | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Lane-Fox, G. R. | Peto, Basil Edward | Touche, G. A. |
| Larmor, Sir J. | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'm'ts., Mile End) | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Lloyd, George Ambrose | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Remnant, James Farquharson | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Rolleston, Sir John | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Rothschild, Lionel de | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Salter, Arthur Clavell | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Mackinder, H. J. | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Sanderson, Lancelot | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Sassoon, Sir Philip | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) | Younger, Sir George |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Smith, Harold (Warrington) | Goldsmith and Mr. Cassel. |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Clough, William | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Clynes, J. R. | Glanville, Harold James |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Adamson, William | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Griffith, Ellis J. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Cotton, William Francis | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Gulland, John William |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Crooks, William | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Crumley, Patrick | Hackett, John |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Cullinan, John | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Hancock, John George |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Dawes, J. A. | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithnese-shire) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | De Forest, Baron | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Barnes, George N. | Delany, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) |
| Barton, William | Devlin, Joseph | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Dickinson, W. H. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Dillon, John | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Donelan, Captain A. | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Doris, W. | Hayward, Evan |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Duffy, William J. | Hazleton, Richard |
| Black, Arthur W. | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson |
| Boland, John Pius | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Henderson. J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Elverston, Sir Harold | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) |
| Brace, William | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Higham, John Sharp |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Hinds, John |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Essex, Richard Walter | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Esslemont, George Birnie | Hodge, John |
| Buckmastcr, Stanley O. | Falconer, J. | Hogge, James Myles |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Farrell, James Patrick | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Ffrench, Peter | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Field, William | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Fitzgibbon, John | Hudson, Walter |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Hughes, S. L. |
| Chancellor, H. G. | George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Chappie, Dr. W. A. | Gill, A. H. | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Ginnell, L. | John, Edward Thomas |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Neilson, Francis | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Jones, H Haydn (Merioneth) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Nolan, Joseph | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Nuttall, Harry | Scanian, Thomas |
| Jowett, Frederick William | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Keating, Matthew | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | O'Doherty, Philip | Sheehy, David |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Donnell, Thomas | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Kilbride, Denis | Ogden, Fred | Shortt, Edward |
| King, J. | OGrady, James | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | O'Malley, William | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Snowden, Philip |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Leach, Charles | O'Shee, James John | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Outhwaite, R. L. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Sutherland, John E. |
| Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Sutton, John E. |
| Lundon, T. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Taylor, John (W. (Durham) |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph (Rotherham) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Thomas, J. H. |
| McGhee, Richard | Pirie, Duncan V. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon, Dr. T. J. | Pointer, Joseph | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Pollard, Sir George H. | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Power, Patrick Joseph | Verney, Sir Harry |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Wadsworth, John |
| M'Curdy, C. A. | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| M'Kean, John | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wardle, George J. |
| M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Waring, Walter |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Pringle, William M. R. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Manfield, Harry | Radford, G. H. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Marks, Sir George Croydon | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Webb, H. |
| Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Meagher, Michael | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Reddy, M. | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Menzies, Sir, Walter | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir T. P. |
| Millar, James Duncan | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Molloy, M. | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Rendall, Athelstan | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Mooney, John J. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Morrell, Philip | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Morison, Hector | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Robinson, Sidney | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Muldoon, John | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. | Roche, John (Galway, E.) | |
| Nannetti, Joseph | Roe, Sir Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Needham, Christopher T. | Rowlands, James | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn, |
It being after half-past Ten of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 14th October, successively to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments, moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at half-past Ten of the Clock at this day's sitting.
Division No. 339.]
| AYES.
| [10.43 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Addison, Dr. C. | Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Agnew, Sir George William | Arnold, Sydney |
| Adamson, William | Ainsworth, John Stirling | Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry |
Government Amendment: In Subsection (2), to leave out the word "financial" ["shall be reduced in each financial year"].—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 322; Noes, 217.
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Guest, Major Hon. C. H, C. (Pembroke) | Meagher, Michael |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Guest, Hon, Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Gulland, John W. | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Barnes, G. N. | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Millar, James Duncan |
| Barran, Sir John (Hawick) | Hackett, John | Molloy, M. |
| Barton, W. | Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hancock, John George | Mond, Sir Alfred Morltz |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Bentham, G. J. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Mooney, John J. |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Morrell, Philip |
| Black, Arthur W. | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Morison, Hector |
| Boland, John Pius | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Muldoon, John |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Havelock-Allen, Sir Henry | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Brace, William | Hayden, John Patrick | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Brady, P. J. | Hayward, Evan | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Brocklehurst, W, B. | Hazleton, Richard | Neilson, Francis |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Nicholson, Sir Charles (Doncaster) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Henry, Sir Charles | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Higham, John Sharp | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hinds, John | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hodge, John | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Hogge, James Myles | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Ogden, Fred |
| Chapple, Dr. William Alien | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Grady, James |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Clough, William | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Malloy, William |
| Clynes, J. R. | Hudson, Walter | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Shee, James John |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | John, Edward Thomas | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts. Rushcliffe) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Cullinan, J. | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Jowett, Frederick William | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Joyce, Michael | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Keating, M. | Pointer, Joseph |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Dawes, J. A. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Delany, William | Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | King, Joseph | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Crickdale) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Dillon, John | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Law, Huqh A. (Donegal, W.) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Doris, William | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Duffy, William J. | Leach, Charles | Radford, G. H. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Edwards, A. Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Lundon, Thomas | Reddy, Michael |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Falconer, J. | McGhee, Richard | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Macpherson, James Ian | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Field, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | M'Curdy, C. A. | Robinson, Sidney |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Kean, John | Roch, Walter F. |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Gill, A. H. | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Ginnell, L. | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Gladstone, W G. C. | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Rowlands, James |
| Glanville, H. J. | Manfield, Harry | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Martin, Joseph | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Tennant, Harold John | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Scanlan, Thomas | Thomas, J. H. | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Wiles Thomas |
| Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Thorne, William (West Ham) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Toulmin, Sir George | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Sheehy, David | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Shortt, Edward | Verney, Sir Harry | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Wadsworth, J. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Wardle, G. J. | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Snowden, Philip | Waring, Walter | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | |
| Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Webb, H. | |
| Sutherland, J. E. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Sutton, John E. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
| Taylor, John W. (Durham) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
NOES.
| ||
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Duke, Henry Edward | Lane-Fox, G. R. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Larmor, Sir J. |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Fell, Arthur | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Ashley, W. W. | Finlay Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Lloyd, George Ambrose |
| Astor, Wardort | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |
| Baird, J. L. | Fleming, Valentine | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Forster, Henry William | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Foster, Philip Staveley | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gardner, Ernest | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee |
| Barnston, Harry | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm, Edgbaston) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Gibbs, G. A. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (St. Geo., Han. S.) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Goldman, C. S. | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Goldsmith, Frank | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Mackinder, Halford J. |
| Bonn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Macmaster, Donald |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Goulding, Edward Alfred | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Greene, Walter Raymond | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Bigland, Alfred | Gretton, John | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
| Bird, A. | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Middlemore, John Throgmorton |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Haddock, George Bahr | Moore, William |
| Boyton, J. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Mount, William Arthur |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hamersley, A. St. George | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Newman, John R. P. |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Campion, William Robert | Harris, Henry Percy | Nield, Herbert |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Norton-Griffiths, J. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Helmsley, Viscount | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Cassel, Felix | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. G. W. A. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Cave, George | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hill, Sir Clement | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hills, J. W. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Chambers, James | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Hoare, S. J. G. | Pollock, E. M. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hohler, G. F. | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Clyde, James Avon | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Horner, A. L. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Craig, E. (Ches., Crewe) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hume-Williams, W. E. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hunt, Rowland | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Hunter, Sir C. R. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Ingleby, Holcombe | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Cripps, Sir C. A. | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Croft, H. P. | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Joynson-Hicks, William | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. | Kerry, Earl of | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Kimber, Sir Henry | Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Spear, Sir John Ward | Terrell, H. (Gloucester) | Winterton, Earl |
| Stanier, Beville | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Thynne, Lord Alexander | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Starkey, John R. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Staveley-Hill, Henry | Touche, George Alexander | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Steel-Maitland, A. D. | Tryon, Captain George Clement | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Stewart, Gershom | Tullibardine, Marquess of | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) | Valentia, Viscount | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Swift, Rigby | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) | Younger, Sir George |
| Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) | |
| Talbot, Lord E. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) | Wills, Sir Gilbert | Walrond and Mr. Kerr-Smiley. |
Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Division No. 340.]
| AYES.
| [10.52 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hodge, John |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, s.) | Hogge, James Myles |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Dawes, J. A. | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Adamson, William | De Forest, Baron | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Delany, William | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Devlin, Joseph | Hudson, Waiter |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Dickinson, W. H. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Dillon, John | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Donelan, Captain A. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Arnold, Sydney | Doris, William | Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Duffy, William J. | John, Edward Thomas |
| Baker, H. T, (Accrington) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Elverston, Sir Harold | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Barnes, George N. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Jones, W. S. Glyn. (T. H'mts, Stepney) |
| Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Jowett, Frederick William |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Essex, Richard Walter | Joyce, Michael |
| Barton, William | Esslemont, George Birnie | Keating, Matthew |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Falconer, James | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Farrell, James Patrick | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George) | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Kilbride, Denis |
| Bentham, G. J. | Ffrench, Peter | King, J. |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Field, William | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Crickiade) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Fitzgibbon, John | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe |
| Boland, John Pius | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Gill, A. H. | Leach, Charles |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Ginnell, Laurence | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Brace, William | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Brady, P. J. | Glanville, H. J. | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Lundon, T. |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Lynch, Arthur Alfred |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Macdonald, J, R. (Leicester) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gulland, John W. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney A, (Poplar) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | McGhee, Richard |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hackett, J. | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hancock, J. G. | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | M'Curdy, C. A. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | M'Kean, John |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Clough, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |
| Clynes, John R. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Manfield, Harry |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hayden, John Patrick | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hayward, Evan | Martin, J. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hazleton, Richard | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Meagher, Michael |
| Crooks, William | Henry, Sir Charles | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Cullinan, J. | Higham, John Sharp | Millar, James Duncan |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Hinds, John | Molloy, Michael |
| Davies, Ellis William (Elfion) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Molteno, Percy Alport |
The Committee divided: Ayes, 323; Noes, 220.
| Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Mooney, John J. | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Morgan, George Hay | Primrose, Hon. Neill James | Sutton, John E. |
| Worrell, Philip | Pringle, William M. R. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Morison, Hector | Radford, G. H. | Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Rattan, Peter Wilson | Tennant, Harold John |
| Muldoon, John | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry | Thomas, J. H. |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon R. C. | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Reddy, Michael | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Needham, Christopher T. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Neilson, Francis | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Nolan, Joseph | Rendall, Atheistan | Wadsworth, John |
| Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Nuttall, Harry | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Wardle, George J. |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Waring, Walter |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Robinson, Sidney | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| O'Donnell, Thomas | Roch, Walter F. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Ogden, Fred | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Webb, H. |
| O'Grady, James | Roche, John (Galway, E.) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Roe, Sir Thomas | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Rowlands, James | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Malley, William | Rowntree, Arnold | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Whyte, A. F. |
| O'Shee, James John | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Wiles, Thomas |
| O'Sullivan, Timothy | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Outhwaite, R. L. | Scanlan, Thomas | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Sheehy, David | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Pease, Robert Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Sherwell, Arthur James | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Shortt, Edward | Winfrey, Richard |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Pirie, Duncan Vernon | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Pointer, Joseph | Smith, H. B. (Northampton) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Pollard, Sir George H. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Snowden, P. | |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | G. Howard and Captain Guest |
NOES.
| ||
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Cassel, Felix | Forster, Henry William |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Castlereagh, Viscount | Foster, Philip Staveley |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Cave, George | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gibbs, George Abraham |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Goldman, C. S. |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Goldsmith, Frank |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Chambers, James | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Goulding, Edward, Alfred |
| Balcarres, Lord | Clyde, J. Avon | Greene, Walter Raymond |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Gretton, John |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) |
| Barnston, Harry | Courthope, George Loyd | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Gwynne, R. S. (Eastbourne) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Haddock, George Bahr |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Craik, Sir Henry | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hamersley, Alfred St. George |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Croft, Henry Page | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) |
| Bird, Alfred | Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Denniss, E. R. B. | Harris, Henry Percy |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Dixon, Charles Harvey | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Boyton, J. | Doughty, Sir George | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Duke, Henry Edward | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Hewins, William Albert Samuel |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Hickman Col. Thomas E. |
| Butcher, John George | Fell, Arthur | Hill, Sir Clement L. |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Hills, John Waller |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Hill-Wood, Samuel |
| Campion, W. R. | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Heare, S. J. G. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Fleming, Valentine | Hohler, G. F. |
| Hope, Harry (Bute) | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Moore, William | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Mount, William Arthur | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Horner, Andrew Long | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Newdegate, F. A. | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.) |
| Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Newman, John R. P. | Swift, Rigby |
| Hunt, Rowland | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Ingleby, Holcombe | Nield, Herbert | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, S.) | Norton-Griffiths, J. | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Jessel, Capt. H. M. | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Joynson-Hicks, William | Orde-Powlett, W. G. A. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Kerry, Earl of | Parkes, Ebenezer | Touche, George Alexander |
| Kimber, Sir Henry | Pease, Herbert (Pike (Darlington) | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Peto, Basil Edward | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Lane-Fox, G. R. | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Larmor, Sir J. | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Pryce-Jones, Col. Edward | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Lewisham, Viscount | Remnant, James F. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Lloyd, G. A. | Roberts, s. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Rolleston, Sir John | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Rothschild, Lionel de | Winterton, Earl |
| Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Salter, Arthur Clavell | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Sanderson, Lancelot | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Mackinder, Halford J. | Sassoon, Sir Philip | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Macmaster, Donald | Scott, Leslie (Liverpol, Exchange) | Yerburgh, Robert A |
| M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Younger, Sir George |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'pl., Walton) | |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Smith, Harold (Warrington) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Spear, Sir John Ward | H. Carlile and Mr. E. Gardner. |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Stanier, Beville |
Clause 18—(Charge On Transferred Sum Of Sums Charged On The Guarantee Fund)
The charge on the Guarantee Fund under the Irish Land Purchase Acts in respect of—
Division No. 341.]
| AYES.
| [11.0 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Addison, Dr. Christopher | Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Agnew, Sir George William | Arnold, Sydney |
| Adamson, William | Ainsworth, John Stirling | Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry |
shall cease, and any such sums or arrears which would under the Irish Land Purchase Acts have been made good out of the Guarantee Fund, shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury.
Government Amendment: In Sub-section (3), after the word "fund" ["out of the Guarantee Fund"] insert the words—
"(not being sums or arrears on account of a deficiency in respect of the issue of stock, or bills, or bonds, at a discount or in respect of interest or sinking fund which, under Section 7 of the Irish Land Act, 1909, are a charge on that portion of the Ireland Development Grant which forms part of the cash portion of the Guarantee Fund.)"—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "'That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 321; Noes, 217.
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Meagher, Michael |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Griffith, Ellis J. | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Millar, James Duncan |
| Barnes, G. N. | Gulland, John William | Molloy, Michael |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Hackett, John | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Barton, William | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Mooney, John J. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hancock, J. G. | Morgan, George Hay |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Morrell, Philip |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Morison, Hector |
| Bentham, G. J. | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Muldoon, John |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Harvey, T. E. Leeds, West) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Boland, John Plus | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Havelock-Alian, Sir Henry | Neilson, Francis |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Hayden, John Patrick | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Brace, William | Hayward, Evan | Nolan, Joseph |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hazleton, Richard | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Henry, Sir Charles | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Higham, John Sharp | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hinds, John | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hodge, John | Ogden, Fred |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hogge, James Myles | O'Grady, James |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Malley, William |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hudson, Walter | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hughes, S. L. | O Shee, James John |
| Clough, William | Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Clynes, John R. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | John, Edward Thomas | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton) |
| Crooks, William | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Pirie, Duncan Vernon |
| Cullinan, John | Joyce, Michael | Pointer, Joseph |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Keating, Matthew | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Daves, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kilbride, Denis | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Dawes, J. A. | King, J. | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| De Forest, Baron | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Delany, William | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Devlin, Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Radford, G. H. |
| Dillon, John | Leach, Charles | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Doris, William | Lewis, John Herbert | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Reddy, Michael |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lundon, Thomas | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.) | Lynch, A. A. | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Macdonald. J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | McGhee, Richard | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Falconer, James | Macpherson, James Ian | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Robinson, Sidney |
| Ffrench, Peter | M'Curdy, C. A. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Field, William | M'Kean, John | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs, Spalding) | Rowlands, James |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Gill, A. H. | Manfield, Harry | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Ginnell, Laurence | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Martin, Joseph | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Glanville, H. J. | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Scanlan, Thomas | Tennant, Harold John | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. | Thomas, J. H. | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Scely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Thorne, William (West Ham) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Sheehy, David | Toulmin, Sir George | Wiles, Thomas |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Shortt, Edward | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Verney, Sir Harry | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe) | Wadsworth, John | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs, Ince) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Walton, Sir Joseph | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Snowden, Philip | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Wardle, George J. | Winfrey, Richard |
| Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | Waring, Walter | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | Young, William (Perthshire, E.) |
| Sutherland, John E. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Sutton, John E. | Webb, H. | |
| Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | G. Howard and Captain Guest. |
NOES.
| ||
| Agar-Robartes, Hon, T. C. R. | Doughty, Sir George | Kimber, Sir Henry |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Duke, Henry Edward | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Lane-Fox, G. R. |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Larmor, Sir J. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Fell, Arthur | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) |
| Ashley, Wilfrid | Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Astor, Waldorf | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Lloyd, G. A. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Fleming, Valentine | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Forster, Henry William | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Foster, Philip Staveley | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gardner, Ernest | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Barnston, Harry | Gastrell, Major W. | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee |
| Barrie, H. T. | Gibbs, George Abraham | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Goldman, C. S. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Goldsmith, Frank | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | MacCaw, Win. J. McGeagh |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Mackinder, Halford J. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Coulding, Edward Alfred | Macmaster, Donald |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Greene, Walter Raymond | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Gretton, John | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Bird, Alfred | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Middlemore, John Throgmorten |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Haddock, George Bahr | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Boyton, James | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Moore, William |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Athburton) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Mount, William Arthur |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Butcher, John George | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Campion, W. R. | Harris, Henry Percy | Nield, Herbert |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Norton-Griffiths, J. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Helmsley, Viscount | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Cassel, Felix | Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Herbert, Hon A. (Somerset, S.) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Cave, George | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hickman, Col. Thomas E. | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hills, John Waller | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Chambers, James | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Hoare, S. J. G. | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (M'tgomy B'ghe) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Hope, Major A. (Midlothian) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Horner, Andrew Long | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hume-Williams, W. E. | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby} |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hunt, Rowland | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Ingleby, Holcomhe | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Croft, H. P. | Jessel, Caotain H. M. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Joynson-Hicks, William | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Kerry, Earl of | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Spear, Sir John Ward | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, N.) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Stanler, Beville | Thynne, Lord A. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Starkey, John Ralph | Touche, George Alexander | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Staveley-Hill, Henry | Tullibardine, Marquess of | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Steel-Maitland, A. D. | Valentia, Viscount | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Stewart, Gershom | Walrond, Hon. Lionel | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Swift, Rigby | Wards, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) | Younger, Sir George |
| Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) | Wheler, Granville C. H. | |
| Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) | |
| Talbot, Lord E. | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.) | Wills, Sir Gilbert | Remnant and Captain Tryon. |
| Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) | Winterton, Earl |
Government Amendment: At the end of the Clause add the following new Sub-section:—
"(2) In determining the amount representing the net cost to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom at the time of the passing of this Act of Irish services, the Joint Exchequer Board shall treat the whole of the Death Duty Grant payable under Section nineteen of the Finance Act, 1894, and of the Exchequer contribution payable under Section five of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891,
Division No. 342.]
| AYES.
| [11.15 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Chapple, Dr William Allen | George, Rt. Hon D. Lloyd |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Gill, Alfred Henry |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Clancy, John Joseph | Ginnell, Laurence |
| Adamson, William | Clough, William | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Addison, Dr Christopher | Clynes, John R. | Glanville, Harold James |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Griffith, Ellis Jones |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P (Stroud) | Cotton, William Francis | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Gulland, John William |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Crooks, William | Hackett, John |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Crumley, Patrick | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Cullinan, John | Hancock John George |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Davies, Ellis William (Eiffon) | Harcourt Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Barnes, George N. | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Harmsworth R L (Caithness-shire) |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Dawes, James Arthur | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |
| Barton, William | De Forest, Baron | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Delany, William | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Denman, Hon Richard Douglas | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo) | Devlin, Joseph | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Dickinson, W. H. | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Dillon John | Hayward Evan |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Donelan, Captain A. | Hazleton, Richard |
| Black, Arthur W. | Doris, William | Helme, Sir Norval Watson |
| Boland, John Pius | Duffy, William J. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Higham, John Sharp |
| Brace, William | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Hinds, John |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Elverston, Sir Harold | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Hodge, John |
| Bryce, John Annan | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Hogge, James Myles |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Essex, Richard Walter | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Esslemont, George Birnie | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Falconer, James | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Farrell, James Patrick | Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon S. C. (Poplar) | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Hudson, Waiter |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Ffrench, Peter | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Field, William | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Cawley, H. T. (Heywood) | Fitzgibbon John | John, Edward Thomas |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
and of the Agricultural Grant payable under the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, as part of that cost, without taking into account any diminution of those Grants owing to their being included in the Guarantee Fund."—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 318; Noes, 207.
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Nolan, Joseph | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn-(T. H'mts, Stepney) | Nuttall, Harry | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Keating, Matthew | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Sheehy, David |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Doherty, Philip | Shortt, Edward |
| Kilbride, Denis | O'Donnell, Thomas | Simon, Sir John Allsebrcok |
| King, Joseph | Ogden, Fred | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molten) | O'Grady, James | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Snowden, Philip |
| Law, Hugh A (Donegal, West) | O'Malley, William | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Leach, Charles | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | O'Shee, James John | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Sutherland, John E. |
| Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Outhwaite, R. L. | Sutton, John E. |
| Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Lundon, Thomas | Parker, James (Halifax) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Thomas, James Henry |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotharham) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| McGhee, Richard | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Pirie, Duncan V. | Treveyan, Charles Philips |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Pointer, Joseph | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Pollard, Sir George H. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Wadsworth, John |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Power, Patrick Joseph | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| M'Curdy, Charles Albert | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| M'Kean, John | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Waring, Walter |
| M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Pringle, William M. R. | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| M'Micking Major Gilbert | Radford, George Haynes | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Manfield, Harry | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Webb, H. |
| Marks, Sir George Croydon | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Martin, Joseph | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston) |
| Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Reddy, Michael | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Meagher, Michael | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Menzies, Sir Walter | Rendall, Athelstan | Wiles, Thomas |
| Millar, James Duncan | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Molloy, Michael | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Mooney, John J. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs, N.) |
| Morrell, Philip | Robinson, Sidney | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Morison, Hector | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Muldoon, John | Roche, John (Galway, E.) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Roe, Sir Thomas | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Rowlands, James | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Rowntree, Arnold | |
| Needham, Christopher T. | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Neilson, Francis | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | G. Howard and Captain Guest. |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bigland, Alfred | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Bird, Alfred | Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Chambers, James |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Clive, Captain Percy Archer |
| Astor, Waldorf | Boyton, James | Clyde, James Avon |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Bridgeman, William Clive | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham |
| Balcarres, Lord | Bull, Sir William James | Cooper, Richard Ashmole |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Burn, Colonel C. R. | Courthope, George Loyd |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Butcher, John George | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) |
| Barnston, Harry | Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Campion, W. R. | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Craik, Sir Henry |
| Beckett, Hon. W. Gervase | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Cassel, Felix | Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Castlereagh, Viscount | Croft, Henry Page |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Cave, George | Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Ingleby, Holcombe | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Doughty, Sir George | Joynson-Hicks, William | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Fell, Arthur | Kerry, Earl of | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Kimber, Sir Henry | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Fleming, Valentine | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Forster, Henry William | Larmor, Sir J. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. Hints., Mile End) | Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton) |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Lewisham, Viscount | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Goldman, Charles Sydney | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Stanier, Beville |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Greene, W. R. | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Gretton, John | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.) | Swift, Rigby |
| Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Haddock, George Bahr | Mackinder, Halford J. | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Macmaster, Donald | Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.) |
| Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Magnus, Sir Philip | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, N.) |
| Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Touche, George Alexander |
| Harris, Henry Percy | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Moore, William | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Helmsley, Viscount | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Newdegate, F. A. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Wheler, Granville, C. H. |
| Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Hill, Sir Clement L. | Nield, Herbert | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Hills, John Waller | Norton-Griffiths, J. | Winterton, Earl |
| Hill-Wood, Samuel | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Hope, Harry (Bute) | Parkes, Ebenezer | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Hope James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart. |
| Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Peto, Basil Edward | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Home, William E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Horner, Andrew Long | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. | Younger, Sir George |
| Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | |
| Hunt, Rowland | Remnant, James Farquharson | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Mount and Mr. P. Foster. |
Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Division No. 343.]
| AYES.
| [11.29 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Beck, Arthur Cecil | Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. George) | Chancellor, H. G. |
| Adamson, William | Bentham, G. J. | Chappie, Dr. W. A. |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Bethell, Sir John Henry | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Black, Arthur W. | Clancy, John Joseph |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Boland, John Pius | Clough, William |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Booth, Frederick Handel | Clynes, J. R. |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Bowerman, C. W. | Collins, G. P. (Greenock) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir. J. |
| Arnold, Sydney | Brace, William | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Brady, Patrick Joseph | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Cotton, William Francis |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Bryce, J. Annan | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot |
| Baring, Sir Gedfrey (Barnstaple) | Burke, E. Haviland- | Crooks, William |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Crumley, Patrick |
| Barnes, G. N. | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Cullinan, John |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs) | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Davies E, William (Eiffon) |
| Barton, W. | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) |
The Committee divided: Ayes, 312; Noes, 209.
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Radford, George Heynes |
| Dawes, J. A. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| De Forest, Baron | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Delany, William | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Reddy, M. |
| Devlin, Joseph | Leach, Charles | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lewis, John Herbert | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Doris, William | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Duffy, William J. | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) | Lundon, T. | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lynch, A. A. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | McGhee, Richard | Robinson, Sidney |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Essex, Richard Waiter | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Macpherson, James Ian | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Falconer, James | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Rowlands, James |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | M'Kean, John | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Ffrench, Peter | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Field, William | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Samuel, J. (Stockton) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | M'Micklng, Major Gilbert | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Manfield, Harry | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Martin, Joseph | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Gill, A. H. | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Ginnell, Laurence | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Sheehy, David |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meagher, Michael | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Glanville, H. J. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Shortt, Edward |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Menzies, Sir Walter | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Millar, James Duncan | Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe) |
| Grey, Rr. Hon. Sir Edward | Molloy, M. | Smith, H. B. (Northampton) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Moiteno, Percy Alport | Smyth, Thomas F. |
| Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Snowden, Philip |
| Gulland, John William | Mooney, John J. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Morgan, George Hay | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Hackett, J. | Morrell, Philip | Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W.) |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Morison, Hector | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Hancock, J. G. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Muldoon, John | Sutton, John |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Nannettl, Joseph P. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Needham, Christopher T. | Thomas, James Henry |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Neilson, Francis | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Nolan, Joseph | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Hay ward, Evan | Nuttall, Harry | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Hazleton, Richard | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Wadsworth, John |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Henry, Sir Charles | O'Doherty, Philip | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | O'Donnell, Thomas | Waring, Walter |
| Higham, John Sharp | Ogden, Fred | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Hinds, John | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Hodge, John | O'Malley, William | Webb, H. |
| Hogge, James Myles | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | White, J. (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Holt, Richard Durning | O'Shee, James John | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Outhwaite, R. L. | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Hudson, Walter | Palmer, Godfrey | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Hughes, S. L. | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| John, Edward Thomas | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pointer, Joseph | Wilson, W. T. (Westhroughton) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pollard, Sir George H. | Winfrey, Richard |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn-(Stepney) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Joyce, Michael | Power, Patrick Joseph | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Keating, M. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | |
| Kilbride, Denis | Primrose, Hon. Neil James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| King, J. | Pringle, William M. R. | Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest. |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Greene, Walter Raymond | Nield, Herbert |
| Archer-Shoe, Major M. | Gretton, John | Norton-Griffiths, John |
| Ashley, W. W. | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Baird, J. L. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Balcarres, Lord | Haddock, George Bahr | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Barnston, H. | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Barrie, H. T. | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Helmsley, Viscount | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Bird, A. | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury) | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hills, John Waller | Salter, Clavell |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Boyton, J. | Hoare, S. J. G. | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hohler, G. F. | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton) |
| Campion, W. R. | Horner, Andrew Long | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Houston, Robert Paterson | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. sir Edward H. | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Stanier, Beville |
| Cassel, Felix | Hunt, Rowland | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hunter, Sir C. R. | Starkey, John R. |
| Cave, George | Ingleby, Holcombe | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Jackson, Sir John | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Swift, Rigby |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Joynson-Hicks, William | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Kiiutsford) |
| Clay, Capt. H. Spender | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kerry, Earl of | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Kimber, Sir Henry | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.) |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, N.) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Larmor, Sir J. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lewisham, Viscount | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Croft, Henry Page | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Doughty, Sir George | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Mackinder, Halford J. | Winterton, Earl |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Macmaster, Donald | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Faber, George D. (Clapham) | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Fell, Arthur | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Malcolm, Ian | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Fleming, Valentine | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Forster, Henry William | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Gastrell, Major W. H. | Moore, William | Younger, Sir George |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | |
| Goldman, C. S. | Mount, William Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Neville, Reginald J. N. | G. Locker-Lampson and Col. Burn. |
Clause 19—(Development Fund And Road Improvement Grant)
(1) Nothing in this Act shall affect the powers of the Development Commissioners or the Road Board with respect to Ireland under the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, and for the purposes of that Act any Irish department shall be deemed to be a Government department within the meaning of that Act.
(2) So long as a sum equal to the net proceeds of the duties on motor spirits and the net proceeds of the duties on licences for motor cars levied in Ireland is paid as part of the road improvement grant under section ninety of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, the proceeds of those duties shall not be treated for the purposes of the financial provisions of this Act as the proceeds of an Imperial tax levied in Ireland.
Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1) after the word "of" ["shall affect the
Division No. 344.]
| AYES.
| [11.40 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Duffy, William J. | Jowett, Frederick William |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Joyce, Michael |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Keating, Matthew |
| Adamson, William | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Elverston, Sir Harold | Kilbride, Denis |
| Agnew, Sir George | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | King, J. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Essex, Richard Walter | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Esslemont, George Birnie | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe |
| Arnold, Sydney | Falconer, J. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Farrell, James Patrick | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cock'rmth) |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Leach, Charles |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Ffrench, Peter | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Field, William | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Fitzgibbon, John | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lundon, T. |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | George Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Barton, W. | Gill, A. H. | Lynch, A. A. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Ginnell, Laurence | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Glanville, H. J. | McGhee, Richard |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Boland, John Pius | Griffith, Ellis J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | M'Kean, John |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Gulland, John William | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Brace, William | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Lelcs.) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hackett, J. | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hancock, John George | Manfield, Harry |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Harcourt, Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Martin, Joseph |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Meagher, Michael |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Millar, James Duncan |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Molloy, M. |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Hayden, John Patrick | Mooney, J. J. |
| Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Hayward, Evan | Morgan, George Hay |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hazleton, Richard | Worrell, Philip |
| Clough, William | Helme, Sir Nerval Watson | Morlson, Hector |
| Clynes, J. R. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Henry, Sir Charles | Muldoon, John |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Higham, John Sharp | Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hinds, John | Nannetti, Joseph |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Hodge, John | Neilson, Francis |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Hogge, James Myles | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Crooks, William | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Nolan, Joseph |
| Crumley, Patrick | Holt, Richard Durning | Norton, Capt. Cecil W. |
| Cullinan, John | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Davies, Timothy (Louth) | Hudson, Walter | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hughes, S. L. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Dawes, J. A. | Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Doherty, Philip |
| De Forest, Baron | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Delany, William | John, Edward Thomas | Ogden, Fred |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Jones, Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Malley, William |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Doris, William | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
powers of"] to insert the words "the Treasury or."—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 307; Noes, 205.
| O'Shee, James John | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| O'Sullivan, Timothy | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Outhwaite, R. L. | Robinson, Sidney | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Wadsworth, John |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Roe, Sir Thomas | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Rowlands, James | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Rowntree, Arnold | Waring, Walter |
| Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Samuel, J. (Stockton) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Pointer, Joseph | Scanlan, Thomas | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Pollard, Sir George H. | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Sheehy, David | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Shortt, Edward | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Smith, H. B. (Lees (Northampton) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Pringle, William M. R. | Smyth, Thomas F. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Radford, G. H. | Snowden, p. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Raffan, Peter Wilson | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Reddy, M. | Sutherland, J. E. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Sutton, John E. | Winfrey, Richard |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Kendall, Athelstan | Tennant, Harold John | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Thomas, James Henry | |
| Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Thorne, William (West Ham) | W. Jones and Mr. Webb. |
| Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Toulmin, Sir George |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hohler, G. F. |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Craik, Sir Henry | Hepe, Harry (Bute) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Croft, Henry Page | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Denniss, E. R. B. | Horner, Andrew Long |
| Astor, Waldorf | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Baird, J. L. | Dixon, Charles H. | Hume-Williams, William Ellis |
| Balcarres, Lord | Doughty, Sir George | Hunt, Rowland |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Duke, Henry Edward | Hunter, Sir C. R. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Ingleby, Holcombe |
| Barnston, Harry | Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Jackson, Sir John |
| Barrie, H. T. | Fell, Arthur | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Jessel, Captain H. M. |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Joynson-Hicks, William |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Fleming, Valentine | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Forster, Henry William | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Foster, Philip Staveley | Kimber, Sir Henry |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Gardner, Ernest | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Bigland, Alfred | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Lane-Fox, G. R. |
| Bird, A. | Glbbs, G. A. | Larmor, Sir J. |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Goldman, C. S. | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Goldsmith, Frank | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Boyton, J. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Lloyd, George Ambrose |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Greene, W. R. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Gretton, John | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Butcher, J. G. | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |
| Campion, W. R. | Haddock, George Bahr | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Mackinder, Halford J. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Macmaster, Donald |
| Cassel, Felix | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hamersley, Alfred St, George | Malcolm, Ian |
| Cave, George | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Middlemore, John Throgmorton |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Chambers, James | Helmsley, Viscount | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Clay, Captain H. Spender | Henderson, Major H. (Berks) | Moore, William |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Mount, William Arthur |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Hickman, Col. Thomas E. | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Court-hope, George Loyd | Hills, J. W. | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hoare, Samuel J. G. | Nield, Herbert |
| Norton-Griffiths, John | Sassoon, Sir Philip | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| O'Neill, Han. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Smith, Harold (Warrington) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent. Mid) |
| Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Spear, Sir John Ward | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Parker, Ebenezer | Stanier, Beville | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Peto, Basil Edward | Starkey, John R. | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Staveley-Hill, Henry | Winterton, Earl |
| Pollock, Ernest Murray | Steel-Maitland, A. D. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Pryce-Jones, Col. E. | Stewart, Gershom, | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripen) |
| Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Swift, Rigby | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Remnant, James Farquharson | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Ronaldshay, Earl of | Talbot, Lord Edmund | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Rothschild, Lionel de | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) | Younger, Sir George |
| Salter, Arthur Clavell | Thynne, Lord Alexander | |
| Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord |
| Sanders, Robert A. | Touche, George Alexander | Kerry and Sir J. Lonsdale. |
| Sanderson, Lancelot | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
Government Amendment: In Sub-section (2), at the end, add, "nor shall the Irish Parliament have power to vary those duties."—[ Mr. Herbert Sumuel.]
Division No. 345.]
| AYES.
| [11.50 p. m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hancock, John George |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Cotton, William Francis | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Adamson, William | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Crooks, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Crumley, Patrick | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Cullinan, John | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |
| Arnold, Sydney | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hazleton, Richard |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Dawes, James Arthur | Helme, Sir Norval Watson |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | De Forest, Baron | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Delany, William | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Devlin, Joseph | Higham, John Sharp |
| Barnes, George N. | Dickinson, W. H. | Hinds, John |
| Barran, Sir John (Hawick Burghs) | Donelan, Captain A. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Doris, William | Hodge, John |
| Barton, William | Duffy, William J. | Hogge, James Myles |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St, Geo.) | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Elverston, Sir Harold | Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Black, Arthur W. | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Hudson, Walter |
| Boland, John Pius | Essex, Richard Walter | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Esslemont, George Birnie | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Falconer, James | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Farrell, James Patrick | John, Edward Thomas |
| Brace, William | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Ffrench, Peter | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Field, William | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Bryce. John Annan | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Fitzgibbon, John | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Joyce, Michael |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Keating, Matthew |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gill, Alfred Henry | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Ginnell, L. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Kilbride, Denis |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Glanville, Harold James | King, Joseph |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molten) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe |
| Chappie, Dr. William Allen | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockertn'th) |
| Clough, William | Gulland, John William | Leach, Charles |
| Clynes, John R. | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Collins, Godlrey P. (Greenock) | Hackett, John | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J, | Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton) | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 304; Noes, 201.
| Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Shortt, Edward |
| Lundon, Thomas | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Simon, Sir John Alsebrook |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | O'Shee, James John | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Outhwaite, R. L. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim) |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Snowden, P. |
| McGhee, Richard | Parker, James (Halifax) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West). |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Sutherland, John E. |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Sutton, John F. |
| M'Curdy, Charles Albert | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| M'Kean, John | Pirie, Duncan V. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Pointer, Joseph | Tennant, Harold John |
| M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Pollard, Sir George H. | Thomas, J. H. |
| M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Power, Patrick Joseph | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Manfield, Harry | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Martin, Joseph | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Meagher, Michael | Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Pringle, William M. R. | Wadsworth, John |
| Menzies, Sir Walter | Radford, George Heynes | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Millar, James Duncan | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Walton, Sri Joseph |
| Molloy, Michael | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Waring, Walter |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Reddy, Michael | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Mooney, John J. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Worrell, Philip | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Morison, Hector | Rendall, Athelstan | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Morton, Aipheus Cleophas | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Muldoon, John | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneslde) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Needham, Christopher T. | Robinson, Sidney | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Neilson, Francis | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Williams, Llewellyn (Carmarthen) |
| Nolan, Joseph | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Roe, Sir Thomas | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Rowlands, James | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Nuttall, Harry | Rowntree, Arnold | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Winfrey, Richard |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Scanlan, Thomas | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| O'Donnell, Thomas | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Ogden, Fred | Scott, A MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | |
| O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Sheehy, David | W. Jones and Mr. H. Webb. |
| O'Malley, William | Sherwell, Arthur James |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes |
| Aitken, Sir William M. | Campion, W. R. | Fleming, Valentine |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Forster, Henry William |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Foster, Philip Staveley |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Cassel, Felix | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton |
| Ashley, W. W. | Castlereagh, Viscount | Gibbs, George Abraham |
| Astor, Waldorf | Cave, George | Goldman, Charles Sydney |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Goldsmith, Frank |
| Balcarres, Lord | Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Chambers, James | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Barnston, Harry | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Greene, Walter Raymond |
| Barrie, Hugh T. | Clyde, James Avon | Gretton, John |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Courthope, George Loyd | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Haddock, George Bahr |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Craik, Sir Henry | Hamersley, Alfred St. George |
| Bird, Alfred | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Dixon, Charles Harvey | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Boyton, James | Doughty, Sir George | Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Duke, Henry Edward | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Hewins, William Albert Samuel |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. |
| Butcher, John George | Fell, Arthur | Hill, Sir Clement L. |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Hills, John Waller |
| Hill-Wood, Samuel | Malcolm, Ian | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Stanier, Beville |
| Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Hope, Harry (Bute) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Moore, William | Steel-Maitland A. D. |
| Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Horner, Andrew Long | Mount, William Arthur | Swift, Rigby |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Newdegate, F. A. | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Hunt, Rowland | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Hunter, Sir Chas, Rodk. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Ingleby, Holcombe | Nield, Herbert | Terrell, H. (Gloucester) |
| Jackson, Sir John | Norton-Griffiths, J. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Joynson-Hicks, William | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Touche, George Alexander |
| Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Parkes, Ebenezer | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Kerry, Earl of | Peto, Basil Edward | Valentia, Viscount |
| Kimber, Sir Henry | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford) |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Larmor, Sir J. | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Remnant, James Farquharson | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Lewisham, Viscount | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Lloyd, G. A. | Rolleston, Sir John | Winterton, Earl |
| Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Rothschild, Lionel D. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Rlpon) |
| Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Salter, Arthur Clavell | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Sassoon, Sir Philip | Younger, Sir George |
| Mackinder, Halford J. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) | |
| Macmaster, Donald | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) | Worthington-Evans and Mr. Lane-Fox. |
Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Division No. 346.]
| AYES.
| [12.0 m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Falconer, James |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Adamson, William | Chancellor, Henry George | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Ffrench, Peter |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Clancy, John Joseph | Field, William |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Clough, William | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Clynes, John R. | Fitzgibbon, John |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Arnold, Sydney | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Gill, Alfred Henry |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Ginneil, Laurence |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Cotton, William Francis | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Glanville, Harold James |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Barnes, George N. | Crooks, William | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) | Crumley, Patrick | Griffith, Ellis Jones |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Cullinan, J. | Guest. Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) |
| Barton, William | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Gulland, John William |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, S. George) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hackett, John |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Dawes, James Arthur | Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | De Forest, Baron | Hancock, John George |
| Black, Arthur W. | Delany, William | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) |
| Boland, John Pius | Denman, Hon R. D. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Devlin, Joseph | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Dickinson, W. H. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Donelan, Captain A. | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |
| Brace, William | Doris, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Duffy, William J. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Bryce, John Annan | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Elverston, Sir Harold | Hazleton, Richard |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Bytes, Sir William Pollard | Essex, Richard Walter | Henry, Sir Charles |
The Committee divided: Ayes 295; Noes, 191.
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Moltene, Percy Alport | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Robinson, Sidney |
| Hinds, John | Mooney, John J. | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Morgan, George Hay | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Hodge, John | Morrell, Philip | Rowlands, James |
| Hogge, James Myles | Morison, Hector | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Holt, Richard Durning | Muldoon, John | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Seanlan, Thomas |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Hudson, Walter | Needham, Christopher T. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Neilson, Francis | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Nolan, Joseph | Sheehy, David |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Norton, Captain Cecil William | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| John, Edward Thomas | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Shortt, Edward |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Nuttall, Harry | Simon, Sir Arthur Allsebrook |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe) |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) | O'Doherty, Philip | Snowden, Philip |
| Jowett, Frederick William | O'Donnell, Thomas | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Joyce, Michael | Ogden, Fred | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Keating, Matthew | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Malley, William | Sutton, John E. |
| Kilbride, Denis | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| King, J. | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | O'Shee, James John | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Outhwaite, R. L. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wadsworth, John |
| Leach, Charles | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Lundon, Thomas | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Waring, Walter |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Pointer, Joseph | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Pollard, Sir George H. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| McGhee, Richard | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Maclean, Donald | Power, Patrick Joseph | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Whittakcr, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Wiles, Thomas |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Primrose, Hon. Nell James | Wilkie, Alexander |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Pringle, William M. R. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| M'Kean, John | Radford, George Heynes | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Rattan, Peter Wilson | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Reddy, Michael | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Manfield, Hairy | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Martin, Joseph | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Meagher, Michael | Rendall, Athelstan | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | |
| Menzies, Sir Walter | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Millar, James Duncan | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | W. Jones and Mr. H. Webb. |
| Molloy, Michael | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Clyde, James Avon |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Cooper, Richard Ashmole |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Boyton, James | Courthope, George Loyd |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Bridgeman, William Clive | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Bull, Sir William James | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Burn, Colonel C. R. | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Butcher, John George | Craik, Sir Henry |
| Balcarres, Lord | Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Campion, W. R. | Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. |
| Barnston, Harry | Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Dixon, Charles Harvey |
| Barrie, H. T. | Cassel, Felix | Doughty, Sir George |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Castlereagh, Viscount | Duke, Henry Edward |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Cave, George | Eyres-Monsell, B. M. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Faber, George D. (Clapham) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Fell, Arthur |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Chambers, James | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey |
| Bigland, Alfred | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Fleming, Valentine |
| Bird, Alfred | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Goldman, C. S. | Larmor, Sir J. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Gordon, Rt. Hon. Edward (Brighton) | Lewisham, Viscount | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Greene, Walter Raymond | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Gretton, John | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Stanler, Beville |
| Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Haddock, George Bahr | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Hamersley, Alfred St. George | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Swift, Rigby |
| Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Macmaster, Donald | Sykes, Allan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Malcolm, Ian | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Helmsley, Viscount | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Mount, William Arthur | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Hill, Sir Clement L. | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Hills, John Waller | Newdegate, F. A. | Tryon, Capt. George Clement |
| Hill-Wood, S. | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Tallibardine, Marquess of |
| Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Nield, Herbert | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Hope, Harry (Bute) | Norton-Griffiths, J. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G A. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Horner, Andrew Long | Parkes, Ebenezer | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Winterton, Earl |
| Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Peto, Basil Edward | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Ingleby, Holcombe | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Jackson, Sir John | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Joynson-Hicks, William | Remnant, James Farquharson | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Rolleston, Sir John | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Kerry, Earl of | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Younger, Sir George |
| Kimber, Sir Henry | Rothschild, Lionel de | |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Rutherford, John (Lancs, Darwen) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) | W. Moore and Mr. R. McNeill. |
Clause 20—(Irish Church Fund)
(1) The Irish Church Temporalities Fund shall belong to the Irish Government, and be managed, administered, and disposed of as directed by Irish Act:
Provided that all existing charges on that fund guaranteed by the Treasury shall, if and so far as not paid, be paid out of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom, and be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury.
Division No. 347.]
| AYES.
| [12.14 a.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Brace, William |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Barnes, George N. | Brady, Patrick Joseph |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) | Brocklehurst, William B. |
| Adamson, William | Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Bryce, John Annan |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Barton, William | Buckmaster, Stanley O. |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Burke, E. Haviland- |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Beck, Arthur Cecil | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) |
| Allen, Arthus A. (Dumbarton) | Bentham, George J. | Byles, Sir William Pollard |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Bethell, Sir John Henry | Carr-Gomm, H. W. |
| Arnold, Sydney | Black, Arthur W. | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Boland, John Pius | Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Booth, Frederick Handel | Chancellor, Henry George |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Bowerman, Charles W. | Chapple, Dr. William Allen |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Clancy, John Joseph |
(2) The Irish Church Temporalities Fund means the fund under the control of the Land Commission by virtue of the Irish Church Act Amendment Act, 1881.
Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1) to leave out the words "guaranteed by the Treasury."—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
The committee divided: Ayes, 292; Noes, 185.
| Clough, William | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Clynes, John R. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jowett, Frederick William | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Joyce, Michael | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Keating, Matthew | Priestley, Sir Arthur Grantham |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Kellaway, Frederick George | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Crooks, William | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Kilbride, Denis | Radford, G. H. |
| Cullinan, John | King, Joseph | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Reddy, Michael |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Dawes, J. A. | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| De Forest, Baron | Leach, Charles | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Delany, William | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lewis, John Herbert | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lundon, Thomas | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Doris, William | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Roche, Walter F. |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | McGhee, Richard | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Maclean, Donald | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Rowlands, James |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Macpherson, James Ian | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Falconer, James | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Curdy, Charles Albert | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | M'Kean, John | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Ffrench, Peter | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Field, William | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Sheehy, David |
| Fitzgibbon, John | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Shortt, Edward |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Manfield, Harry | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Martin, Joseph | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Ginnell, Laurence | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meagher, Michael | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Glanville, Harold James | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Snowden, Philip |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Menzies, Sir Walter | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Millar, James Duncan | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Molloy, Michael | Sutherland, John E. |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Sutton, John E. |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Gulland, John William | Mooney, John J. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Givynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Morgan, George Hay | Tennant, Harold John |
| Hackett, John | Worrell, Philip | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Morison, Hector | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hancock, John George | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Muldoon, John | Wadsworth, John |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Needham, Christopher T | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Neilson, Francis | Waring, Walter |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Nolan, Joseph | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Norton, Capt. Cecil W. | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nuttall, Harry | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Hazleton, Richard | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Henry, Sir Charles | O'Doherty, Philip | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | O'Donnell, Thomas | Wiles, Thomas |
| Higham, John Sharp | Ogden, Fred | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Hinds, John | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Hodge, John | O'Malley, William | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull W.) |
| Hogge, James Myles | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Holt, Richard Durning | O'Shee, James John | Winfrey, Richard |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. Mckinnon (Glas.) |
| Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Outhwaite, R. L. | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Hudson, Walter | Parker, James (Halifax) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | |
| Illingworth Percy H. | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | W. Jones and Mr. H. Webb. |
| John, Edward Thomas | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gretton, John | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir-William R. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Nield, Herbert |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Astor, Waldorf | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Balcarres, Lord | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Helmsley, Viscount | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Barnston, Harry | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Barrie, H. T. | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hills, John Waller | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bird, Alfred | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Boyton, James | Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Horner, Andrew Long | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Houston, Robert Paterson | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hunt, Rowland | Stanier, Beville |
| Butcher, John George | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Ingleby, Holcombe | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Jackson, Sir John | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Campion, W. R. | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Joynson-Hicks, William | Swift, Rigby |
| Cassel, Felix | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Cave, George | Kerry, Earl of | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kimber, Sir Henry | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Chambers, James | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Larmor, Sir J. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lewisham, Viscount | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Lyttleton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Doughty, Sir George | Mackinder, Halford J. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Macmaster, Donald | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Malcolm, Ian | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Fleming, Valentine | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Forster, Henry William | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Goldman, Charles Sydney | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Moore, William | |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Mount, William Arthur | Scott Dickson and Mr. Avon Clyde. |
| Greene, Walter Raymond | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Division No. 348.]
| AYES.
| [12.20 a.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Arnold, Sydney | Barton, William |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Beauchamp, Sir Edward |
| Adamson, William | Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Beck, Arthur Cecil |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Bentham, George Jackson |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Bethell, Sir John Henry |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Barnes, George N. | Black, Arthur W. |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) | Boland, John Pius |
The Committee divided: Ayes, 288; Noes, 179.
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Henry, Sir Charles | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Higham, John Sharp | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Hinds, John | O'Malley, William |
| Brace, William | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hodge, John | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Hogge, James Myles | O'Shee, James John |
| Bryce, John Annan | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Holt, Richard Durning | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Hudson, Walter | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | John, Edward Thomas | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Clough, William | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Clynes, J. R. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Jowett, Frederick William | Priestley, Sir A. (Grantham) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Joyce, Michael | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Keating, Matthew | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Kellaway, Frederick George | Radford, George Heynes |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Kilbride, Denis | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Crooks, William | King, Joseph | Rea, Waiter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Reddy, M. |
| Cullinan, J. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Leach, Charles Henry | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Levy, Sir Maurice | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| De Forest, Baron | Lewis, John Herbert | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Delany, William | Lew, Sir F. (Norwich) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lundon, T. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lyell, Charles Henry | Robinson, Sidney |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lynch, A. A. | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Doris, William | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Duffy, William J. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Rowlands, James |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | McGhee, Richard | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Russell, Rt. Hon Thomas W. |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Macpherson, James Ian | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | MCallum, Sir John M. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | M'Kean, John | Seely, Colonel Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Sheehy, David |
| Falconer, J. | M'Laren, Hon. H. L. (Leics.) | Shortt, Edward |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Manfield, Harry | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Field, William | Martin, Joseph | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Snowden, Philip |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Meagher, Michael | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Menzies, Sir Walter | Sutherland, John E. |
| Ginnell, Laurence | Millar, James Duncan | Sutton, John E. |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Molloy, Michael | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Glanville, H. J. | Molteno, Percy Alport | Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Tennant, Harold John |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Mooney, John J. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Morgan, George Hay | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Morrell, Philip | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Gullan, John William | Morison, Hector | Verney, Sir H. |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Wadsworth, John |
| Hackett, J. | Muldoon, John | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Hancock, John George | Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossenadle) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Waring, Walter |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Needham, Christojpher T. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Neilson, Francis | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Nolan, Poseph | Webb, H. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Nuttall, Harry | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Hazleton, Richard | O'Doherty, Philip | Wiles, Thomas |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Donnell, Thomas | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Ogden, Fred | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) | Winfrey, Richard | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) | |
| Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | Young, William (Perth, East) | Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest. |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Greene, Walter Raymond | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Gretton, John | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Nield, Herbert |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Astor, Waldorf | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Barnston, Harry | Helmsley, Viscount | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Barrie, H. T. | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hills, John Waller | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Bird, Alfred | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hohler, G. F. | Salter, Arthur Clavel |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Boyton, James | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Horner, Andrew Long | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Houston, Robert Paterson | Stanier, Beville |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hunt, Roland | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Campion, W. R. | Ingleby, Holcombe | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Cassel, Felix | Joynson-Hicks, William | Swift, Rigby |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Cave, George | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kerry, Earl of | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Kimber, Sir Henry | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Chambers, James | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Larmor, Sir J. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Clyde, James Avon | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Lewisham, Viscount | Touche, George Alexander |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lloyd, G. A. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Mackinder, Halford J. | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Dixon, C. H. | Macmaster, Donald | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Doughty, Sir George | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Malcolm, Ian | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Forster, Henry William | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Moore, William | Younger, Sir George |
| Goldman, Charles Sydney | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Mount, William Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Neville, Reginald J. N. | J. Jackson and Sir C. Kinloch-Cooke. |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newdegat,e, F. A. | |
Clause 21—(Supplemental Provisions As To Irish Exchequer And Consolidated Fund)
(1) All sums paid into the Irish Exchequer shall form a Consolidated Fund, and be appropriated to the public service of Ireland by Irish Act, and shall not be applied for any purpose for which they are not so appropriated.
(2) Save as may be otherwise provided by Irish Act, the existing law relating to the Exchequer and Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom shall apply with the necessary modifications to the Irish Exchequer and the Irish Consolidated Fund, and an officer shall be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant to be the Irish Comptroller and Auditor-General.
(3) Save as may be otherwise provided by Irish Act, the accounts of the Irish Consolidated Fund shall be audited as Appropriation Accounts, in manner provided by the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act, 1866, and any Act amending the same,
Division No. 349.]
| AYES.
| [12.30 a.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Leach, Charles |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Acland, Franics Dyke | Essex, Richard Walter | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Adamson, William | Esslemont, George Birnie | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Falconer, James | Lundon, Thomas |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Farrell, James Patrick | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Lynch, A. A. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Ffrench, Peter | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Field, William | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | McGhee, Richard |
| Arnold, Sydney | Fitzgibbon, John | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Macneill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Gill, Alfred Henry | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Ginnell, Laurence | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | MCallum, Sir John M. |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Glanville, H. J. | M'Curdy, Charles Albert |
| Barnes, George N. | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | M'Kean, John |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick) | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |
| Barton, William | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics., Spalding) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Gulland, John W. | Manfield, Harry |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Martin, Joseph |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Hackett, J. | Meagher, Michael |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Hancock, John George | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Black, Arthur W. | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Millar, James Duncan |
| Boland, John Pius | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Molloy, Michael |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Mooney, John J. |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Brace, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Morrell, Philip |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Morison, Hector |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Bryce, John Annan | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hayden, John Patrick | Muldoon, John |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hazleton, Richard | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Henry, Sir Charles | Neilson, Francis |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Higham, John Sharp | Nolan, Joseph |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hinds, John | Norton, Captain Cecil William |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Hodge, John | Nuttall, Harry |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Hogge, James Myles | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Clough, William | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Clynes, John R. | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hudson, Walter | Ogden, Fred |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Malley, William |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | John, Edward Thomas | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Shee, James John |
| Cullinan, J. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jowett, Frederick William | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Joyce, Michael | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) |
| De Forest, Baron | Keating, Matthew | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Delany, William | Kellaway, Frederick George | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Pointer, Joseph |
| Devlin, Joseph | Kilbride, Denis | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Donelan, Captain A. | King, Joseph | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Doris, William | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Duffy, William J. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
by or under the direction of the Irish Comptroller and Auditor-General.
Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 283; Noes, 172.
| Pringle, William M. R. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Radford, George Heynes | Seely, Colonel Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Webb, H. |
| Raffan, Peter Wilson | Sheehy, David | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Shortt, Edward | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Reddy, M. | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Wiles, Thomas |
| Rendall, Athelstan | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Sutherland, John E. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Sutton, John E. | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Tennant, Harold John | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Robinson, Sidney | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Roch, Walter F. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Verney, Sir H. | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Rowlands, James | Wadsworth, John | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Rowntree, Arnold | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | |
| Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Walton, Sir Joseph | |
| Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Waring, Walter | Geoffrey Howard and Capt. Guest. |
| Scanlan, Thomas | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Greene, Walter Raymond | Moore, William |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Gretton, John | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) | Mount, William Arthur |
| Ashley, W. W. | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Astor, Waldorf | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Balcarres, Lord | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Nield, Herbert |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Barnston, Harry | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Barrie, H. T. | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Helmsley, Viscount | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hickman, Colonel Thomas | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Bird, Alfred | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hills, John Waller | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid.) | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Boyton, James | Hohler, G. F. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Butcher, John George | Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Horner, A. L. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, West) |
| Campion, W. R. | Hunt, Rowland | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Ingleby, Holcombe | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Jackson, Sir John | Stanier, Beville |
| Cassel, Felix | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Cave, George | Joynson-Hicks, William | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Stewart, Gershom |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Kerry, Earl of | Swift, Rigby |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kimber, Sir Henry | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Larmor, Sir J. | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lewisham, Vosccunt | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Doughty, Sir George | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Duke, Henry Edward | MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford) |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Mackinder, Halford J. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Macmaster, Donald | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Forster, Henry William | Malcolm, Ian | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Goldman, Charles Sydney | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Worthington-Evans, L. | Yate, Colonel C. E. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- | Yerburgh, Robert A. | Goldsmith and Mr. O. Locker Lampson. |
| Wright, Henry Fitzherbert | Younger, Sir George |
Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Wednesday).
Pilotage (Salaries And Expenses)
Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the Salaries and remuneration of Commissioners or others appointed in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to consolidate and amend the Law relating to Pilotage, of all Expenses incurred by the Board of Trade in the execution of such Act, and of allowances and Expenses payable to members of an advisory committee appointed there-under (King's Recommendation signified), to-morrow (Wednesday).—[ Mr. Gulland.]
May I ask whether the Minister in charge of the Bill can give us any forecast as to the probable expenses in connection with the Bill?
That will be given tomorrow when the Motion will appear on the Paper.
The Orders for the remaining Government business were read and postponed,
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 14th October, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Imprisonment Of Mr Arnold (Rangoon)
I am sorry to detain the House at this late hour, but I shall do so for a very few minutes. I only intrude because the case I desire to call attention to is one in which it appears to me a very serious miscarriage of justice has taken place, and a cruel act of injustice has been done to an English journalist who bears a name honoured on all sides of the House. It will be necessary for me to put the facts of the two cases involved here. The first case is the McCormick case which I referred to by question in the House about six months ago. The second case is that of Mr. Arnold. The McCormick case is the case of a captain who was charged with the abduction and rape of a native girl of the age of about ten years. Captain McCormick is an Australian and a D.S.O. He settled at Victoria Point in 1909 and he then adopted a Malay child, a part of the terms being the payment of thirty rupees to the mother of the child. The child remained with Captain McCormick for some months, after which she was taken away by her mother. In March, 1911, the mother banded the child over to a woman who was the native mistress of a servant of Captain McCormick. Captain McCormick then saw the girl and removed her from the care of this woman and detained her in his bungalow for a period of three months, denying the girl access to her parents, refusing to allow her to go to see her father who was lying seriously ill and even refusing to allow her to attend her father's funeral. The mother made application to Captain McCormick to have her child back. Captain McCormick refused and roughly handled the woman when she made the application.
The child remained with Captain McCormick for three months, when the mother laid an information before the magistrate, Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Buchanan did not want to hear the case, he having been brought into conflict with McCormick over a concession of some land. He therefore wired to his official superior asking him to send Captain Finney, a police magistrate, to enquire into the case. That application was sent in on July 3rd and it should have arrived at the headquarters within three or four days, but, as a matter of fact, more than a fortnight passed before Mr. Andrew, who was the magistrate whom it is said Mr. Arnold libelled, sent Captain Finney down to make inquiries at Victoria Point. In the meantime Mr. Buchanan had become aware of the very serious charges that were being made against Captain McCormick in connection with this girl. He ordered the girl to be removed from Captain McCormick and the girl was removed by a police inspector. The mother of the girl then went before Mr. Buchanan and accused Captain McCormick not only of having abducted the girl, but of having raped her and having communicated to her a loathsome disease. The defence set up by Captain McCormick was that he had become aware that the child was suffering from this disease whilst she was staying at the house of the woman to whom her mother had entrusted her, and he said—"out of pure humanity I thought it was my duty to take the girl to my bungalow and examine her, and I took her and I myself examined her. I found she was suffering from an exceedingly virulent form of this loathsome disease. I took medicines from my medicine chest. I gave them to one of my servants and my servant attended this child. I had a right to do that because I had bought the child from her mother for thirty rupees." All these statements were statements which were made when the case came on for hearing. When Captain Finney arrived and inquired into this case he saw Mr. Buchanan, the local magistrate, who did not want to hear this case. Mr. Buchanan then came to the conclusion that the police wanted to hush the case up, and he therefore decided to issue a warrant for Captain McCormick's arrest on a charge of abduction, and instructed the police to proceed with an inquiry into the charge of rape. That warrant was carried out in spite of the protest of Captain Finney. Captain Finney then wired in a secret code to Mr. Andrew, the magistrate who Mr. Arnold is alleged to have libelled: "McCormick is arrested on an unbailable offence. I hope bail will be allowed." Mr. Andrew allowed bail. During the time before the authority for bail to Captain McCormick arrived, Captain McCormick was entertained by Captain Finney. Captain Finney finally reported that there was no case on the evidence so far as he had been able to get it. Mr. Andrew, however, decided, there ought to be a hearing. He himself decided to hear the case at his headquarters, some 200 miles from Victoria Point. As soon as the mother heard that Mr. Andrew was to be the magistrate she petitioned the Commissioner that the trial should be removed to another court owing to the well-known fact that Mr. Andrew and Captain McCormick were close personal friends. That petition was sent to Mr. Andrew to deal with. He filed the petition and decided to proceed with the case. The mother also applied that she might be allowed a pleader, as they were poor people and they were not able to pay a pleader. That application also was refused. The case then went to Mr. Andrew's court. One of the statements made by Mr. Arnold was that the case was heard in camera. That statement is denied by Mr. Andrew, and as I have heard a suggestion that the hearing in camera was desirable in a case of this kind it is important to bear that denial in mind. He denied that it was heard in camera. As a matter of fact the only persons present at the Court—I have the names—were these, the magistrate and his clerk, McCormick and his counsel, two of his servants, the woman and her child, and the interpreter. And here is another factor which I think is of singular significance. Instead of using the official interpreter of the Court at Victoria Point, who had been brought up to the Court, a distance of 200 miles, the interpreter actually employed was the servant of Captain McCormick. I ask the House to try and realise the position of this poor Malay woman and child, in an alien court, when the only means of approaching the judge was through an interpreter who was employed by the man against whom they were seeking justice. Another circumstance was this, that Mr. Andrew refused to admit evidence from two witnesses who were essential to the case of this woman and her child. One of them was the civil doctor who had examined the girl. Two witnesses were entered as being witnesses on behalf of the woman and child who wore actually witnesses for McCormick. That is explained by Mr. Andrew, the magistrate, as being an error on the part of his clerk. The verdict Mr. Andrew brought in was that Captain McCormick's motives had been pure and philanthropic, and he dismissed the case. Two days afterwards he entertained Captain McCormick at dinner, and during the Durbar celebrations Captain McCormick was his guest for a week. I am coming to a conclusion and I know it is an unpleasant and painful story, but it is one which I felt compelled to lay before the House. When all these facts were known, Mr. Arnold, who is editor of the "Burmah Critic," approached the Government and asked for an inquiry into all the circumstances of the case. He did not succeed in getting any satisfaction, and it was only then that he decided to take up the case in his paper. He then made three statements. One was that Captain McCormick and Mr. Andrew were "boon companions." That expression may be an unpleasant and unfortunate one, but there is no question as to its accuracy, they both being in close and intimate connection over a fairly considerable period. The other was that the case was heard in camera. I have given the House the actual and undisputed facts as to the persons who were present. The third was that Captain Finney and Mr. Andrew had agreed to acquit their friend of this charge. Mr. Arnold was convinced that there had been a grave miscarriage of justice on the facts as he saw them, and as for myself, I may say that having seen the detailed reports of the proceedings, I have come to the same conclusion. I think there has been a grave miscarriage of justice. Burning with a sense of indignation and believing that wrong had been done, Mr. Arnold did write what may have been indiscreet, he may have used some expressions which were indiscreet, but I think that the sentence of twelve months' imprisonment in a Malay prison which was passed upon him greatly exceeded any guilt for which he was responsible. I venture to ask the representative of the India Office two things—first, that they will institute a full inquiry into all the circumstances regarding the trial of McCormick, and also I hope the Secretary of State for India will see his way to exercise the prerogative of mercy on behalf of Mr. Arnold. I cannot help feeling that having served one month, as he has done, in a Burmese jail, whatever indiscretion he was guilty of has been fully condoned. We are not dealing with the case of a man with a libellous pen. Mr. Arnold is the son of Sir Edwin Arnold, and has a hereditary love for the East, and although he may have gone too far in his criticism, there can be no doubt that his motive was a pure and public one.I usually agree with my hon. Friend in the views which he too rarely expresses in this House, but I am sorry to say I do not agree with all the views he has expressed tonight. I think it is a great pity that a matter of such extreme and grave importance to a gentleman who may some day be a distinguished public servant, should be raised at this time of night in the Imperial Parliament. I may say at the outset that I agree with my hon. Friend in what he said when he suggested that the prerogative of mercy might be used on behalf of Mr. Arnold, who the House also will agree bears a distinguished and honoured name, but I do not agree with him on the strictures he has passed upon Mr. Andrew. His first point, so far as I could make out, with regard to Mr. Andrew was that he had heard the case in open court. The fact is, as the hon. Member states himself, that the police reported that there was no case against Captain McCormick. It is a well known fact in Indian law, as it is in the law of this country, that if the police report that there is no case against a man the magistrate can dismiss the case immediately, but Mr. Andrew did not do that, although it was within his power to do it. He thought it was necessary, as there was some doubt about the evidence on which the police had brought the charge, to hear it in open court, and he did hear it in open court. But the hon. Member did not stop there; he said he ought not to have heard the case in open court.
No, no. If I said that, I meant to say the contrary.
He did mention something about it, although I am afraid I did not quite catch the point. He mentioned something about the names of the people who were present in court during the trial of the case. As a matter of fact, in an offence of that sort in this country and indeed in every part of the world the magistrate almost invariably uses his discretion, and in India as in this country he clears the court of all people who are not directly interested either as witnesses or as friends of the prisoner. The magistrate in this case may or may not have used that discretion, but I think it is greatly to his credit, and in his favour if he did what he is credited with, and cleared the court in a case where it was alleged that an offence had been committed against a child, an offence of a disgraceful nature, if it was actually committed, or actually proved, against Captain McCormick. The next point is, the hon. Member said that the offence was a non-bailable one. That may be so, but again the magistrate's discretion in a case of this kind is quite undisputed. If it is a non-bailable case he is entitled to use his discretion and allow any person whenever arrested out on bail.
1.0 A.M. The next point which the hon. Member made was that this Malay woman and child were not allowed a pleader at the expense of the local government. Every person knows that even in this country it was only quite recently that the Poor Prisoners' Act was passed in order to enable poor prisoners in this country to be defended at the public expense. Every person who has any practice in the criminal courts of this country knows that unless a prisoner, however poor he may be, raises some sort of defence before the magistrates, when he is sent for trial he is not allowed to have anyone to represent him, however strong his case is, and it is not at all surprising to me that Mr. Andrew did not give the woman a pleader Probably he had no power. An hon. Friend tells me he had the power. At any rate, the worst that can be said against him is that he did not use the discretion. The facts are that Mr. Arnold was sentenced to twelve months' simple imprisonment. Everyone knows that simple imprisonment in India is not a very serious punishment. There is no hard labour of any sort, but I do agree with my hon. Friend in impressing upon the representative of the India Office that in a case of this sort the prerogative of mercy ought to be extended to a man who bears so distinguished a name as Mr. Arnold. My hon. Friend said it was a very serious thing that Mr. Andrew entertained Captain McCormick two days after the trial. As every person knows in this country judges very often entertain barristers and barristers entertain judges. [HON. MEMBERS: "Prisoners?"] I am coming to that point. I do not see why in the wide world if a magistrate who was absolutely convinced that a man in his own station of life, who was tried before him, was innocent, and he got a fair trial, and there was no proof of any guilt, he should not afterwards entertain him if he wished to do so. I do not think, therefore, that any point ought to be made of that. We in this country do not understand the conditions of the East. The conditions surrounding the white man and the black man in India and in Burma are probably not understood by the people of this country, and I do not think that at this time of night my hon. Friend ought to have gone out of his way to bring that forward as a charge against Mr. Andrew. I do not know Mr. Andrew and I have never heard of him before, but I do think it, is a great pity indeed at this hour of the night that accusations made in various quarters should be repeated. I trust, therefore, when the hon. Member representing the India Office replies to the speech of my hon. Friend he will promise the House that the twelve months' imprisonment shall be shortened, and at the same time produce to the House something in substantiation of the character and honour of Mr. Andrew, who, no doubt, is a very able and a very zealous servant.
I make no complaint at all of the way in which my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford has placed his case before the House, but if I do not follow him in the statement of facts which he made I hope that I shall not be taken as not dissenting on my part, or on the part of the Secretary of State for India, from that statement. Some were true and admitted facts, but others were very much open to question. If I pass them by it is because in the short time which remains I desire to come to the real question which is in the minds of hon. Members, and that is what should be done in reference to Mr. Arnold and in his present position. I am well aware, as many right hon. and hon. Members are, that this case has excited a great deal of interest, not only in India, but in this country, too. If the statement of the facts made by my hon. Friend be true, even if Mr. Arnold had been guilty only of a technical offence, still he would have the sympathy of every honest man in the country; but this case is still sub judice, and it must be remembered, with regard to the statement of facts put before us this evening by the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Kellaway), that it has not commended itself to the courts which have dealt with the case. It is necessary just for one moment and I must try to be brief to refer to the legal history of the case. As my hon. Friend said, in 1911 after Captain McCormick was first tried before Mr. Andrew on a charge of abduction and rape and was discharged, a petition was presented to the Lieutenant-Governor of the province on behalf of the mother of the child asking him to call for the records of the case and to look into the allegations that were made against Mr. Andrew's conduct of the trial. The Lieutenant-Governor made a full investigation into the matter and declared himself to be completely satisfied and to be unwilling to intervene in the matter. That decision was communicated to Mr. Arnold and upon that Mr. Arnold published two articles which formed the subject of the libels. Again, I should like to point out this, in order to correct the statement made by the hon. Member for Bedford. Those libels were not a mere case of criticism of a magistrate for non-performance of his duty, or any simple suggestion of an error of judgment, or even that there had been shown partiality or friendly bias to a prisoner. They went far beyond that, and were intended as my hon. Friend frankly admitted, to make a charge of deliberate conspiracy against two officers. They charged that they had conspired together to prevent justice and to screen a friend. It was a very gross libel, if true, upon two judicial officers in their official capacity. That I think should be borne in mind. Next, Mr. Andrew having been the subject of these libels at once brought an action under the criminal code for defamation of a magistrate.
Can the hon Gentleman say whether Mr. Andrew did that on the instigation of the India Office?
I cannot give a reply to that question without notice. I think it is not the case. No instigation I think was required. Mr. Andrew, knowing the grave charges made against him was, I think, bound to take action. He did take action for defamation, and that case was tried in the Chief Court of Lower Burmah before the Chief Judge and a European Jury, and they found by a unanimous verdict that Mr. Arnold was guilty of libel, that the statements in the articles were untrue, and he then received a sentence of one year's imprisonment. I think, for the information of the House, I ought to quote what the Chief Judge said in passing sentence:—
On that verdict Mr. Arnold took the case a step further. He applied to the Government advocate for a certificate that they were bound to have a full bench which would consider the points of law and procedure. The Government advocate refused to grant the certificate, and at that point the Burmese Court had performed all the functions which it was entitled to perform. It was functus officio. There was no further court of appeal for the province. It then remained open to Mr. Arnold to proceed to move in the final court of appeal which is the Privy Council. I understand that it is the fact that he is applying to the Privy Council to ask them to exercise the prerogative of the Crown and to grant special leave to appeal in this case. I have only a few minutes left, and I want to utilise them to deal with the last point, which is Mr. Arnold's position. It must be remembered that the Burmese Chief Court has no further power to act. It has gone to its full extent. It could not entertain an application to grant bail to Mr. Arnold whilst the case is being heard before the Privy Council. There remains the Executive authority, that is the power of the Secretary of State to intervene. I must tell hon. Members that it is the view of the Secretary of State that at this moment it is not his duty to intervene. If he were to do so, he would be anticipating by his intervention the decision which the Privy Council is going to take upon this appeal, and he would be prejudging the very question which the Privy Council has to decide, which is not whether Mr. Arnold is guilty or not, but whether there is a prima facie, case or not for an appeal from the previous decision. It would be an intrusion of the Executive into the sphere of the judiciary just at the point where the Privy Council has to give its judicial decision. Although the Secretary of State is unable at this point to decide upon the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, I am willing to assure the House that, if the Privy Council thinks fit to grant special leave to appeal in this case, there is, I think, very little doubt that the Government of India, or the Privy Council will at once liberate Mr. Arnold on bail whilst that appeal is being heard. I can perhaps go beyond that and say I have very good reason to believe that the hearing of the petition for leave to appeal is being expedited so that it may take place at the earliest possible moment. I am sorry it is not possible to go further to meet what I have no doubt are the views, though I think, the mistaken views, of hon. Members. I can assure the House on these two points, that the hearing of the petition for leave to appeal before the Privy Council will be expedited to the greatest degree possible, and that there is every probability, if the Privy Council thinks fit to grant leave to appeal, that Mr. Arnold will be liberated pending the final hearing of that appeal."I have sentenced the accused to what may seem a severe punishment, because in my opinion no grosser, more unwarranted, or more mischievous libel could have been published, and because the offence has been aggravated by the line of conduct of the defence, both advocates having not only reiterated, but added to the vituperation contained in the articles, and no sort of apology or expression of sorrow for the injury done to the complainant having been uttered even up to the end of the case."
Mr. Arnold is an old Oxford friend of mine, and I should like to say one word on his behalf. I understand that the Burmese Court has no further jurisdiction, and that his application is now before the Privy Council, and that the case is in the jurisdiction of the Privy Council. That being so, cannot the Privy Council at once release Mr. Arnold on bail. If it has not the initiative, I should like to ask the India Office to do so as a matter of fair play and justice to the son of an eminent public man, who is a graduate of Oxford University and whose offence, whatever it may be, would not have justified in this country so serious a penalty as twelve months' imprisonment in a Burmese jail. I ask that now the case is in the control of the Privy Council that either the Privy Council or the Secretary of State for India should forthwith exercise such clemency as would enable him to be released at once on bail.
I am afraid the dilemma is this, that the Privy Council cannot yet act in this case, and the Secretary of State thinks it is not his duty to act in a way which might anticipate the decision of the Privy Council.
If an application were made to the Privy Council as a judicial body that Mr. Arnold should be at once released is there any reason why he should not be so released?
I understand that they could not do that until they decide whether or not there is a prima facie case for appeal. They must decide that question first.
Will there be an inquiry into the whole case?
I have no doubt the Privy Council will take all relevant facts into consideration.
Do the Government of India intend to have an inquiry into the circumstances of the case?
They have called for reports.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at a quarter after One a.m., Wednesday, 27th November, 1912.