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Commons Chamber

Volume 47: debated on Wednesday 29 January 1913

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House Of Commons

Wednesday, 29th January, 1913.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, MR. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Established Church (Wales) Bill

Petitions against the passing of the Established Church (Wales) Bill were presented by—

Mr. G. Terrell, (43 petitions) containing 6,209 signatures from the Chippenham Division of Wiltshire.

Mr. W. G. Nicholson, (51 petitions) containing 7,365 signatures from the Peters-field Division of Hampshire.

Mr. Joynson-Hicks, (17 petitions) containing 3,711 signatures from the Brentford Division of Middlesex.

Mr. Mount, (10 petitions) containing 1,010 signatures from the City of Oxford; and (15 petitions), containing 2,183 signatures from the Lowestoft Division of Suffolk.

Greenwich Hospital And Travers' Foundation

Accounts presented for the year ended 31st March, 1912, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 479.]

National Insurance Act

Copy presented of Return of Officers appointed to the Staff of the National Health Insurance Commission (Wales) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Woods, Forests, And Land Revenues

Abstract Accounts presented for the year ended 31st March, 1912, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 480.]

Public Offices (Acquisition Of Site) Act, 1895, Etc

Account presented showing the Moneys issued out of the Consolidated Fund, the Moneys borrowed and the Securities created in respect thereof, and the Expenditure, under the provisions of the Acts, to the 31st March, 1912; together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 481.]

Public Offices Site (Dublin) Act, 1903

Account presented showing the Money issued from the Consolidated Fund under the provisions of The Public Offices Site (Dublin) Act, 1903, and of the Expenditure; the Money expended and borrowed and the Securities created under the said Act for the period ended the 31st March, 1912, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 482.]

Army (Appropriation Account)

Copy presented of the Appropriation Account for 1911-12, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon, and upon the Store Accounts of the Army [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 483.]

Army (Crdnance Factories)

Annual Accounts presented for the year 1911–12, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 484.]

Copy presented of Appropriation Account of the sums granted by Parliament for the expense of the Ordnance Factories, the cost of the productions of which have been charged to the Army, Navy, and Indian and Colonial Governments, etc., and the Statement of the Surpluses and Deficits upon the Grants for the year ended 31st March, 1912, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 485.]

Aemy (Clothing Factory)

Annual Accounts presented of the Royal Army Clothing Factory for the year 1911-12, with Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 486.]

Military Works Acts

Account presented for the period ended 31st March, 1912, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 487.]

Chelsea Hospital (Army Prize Money And Legacy Funds)

Account presented of the Receipts and Expenditure of the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital (for Services other than those voted by Parliament) in the year ended 31st March, 1912, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 488.]

Malay States

Copy presented of Reports for 1911 on the States of Kedah and Perlis, Kelantan and Trengganu [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Copy presented of Report for 1911 on the Federated Malay States [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Shops Act, 1912

Copy presented of Order by the Secretary for Scotland, dated 31st December, 1912, in terms of Section 4 of the Act, affecting the Shops of retail butchers and retail fruiterers in the burgh of Darvel [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Census Of Production Act, 1906 (Rules)

Copy presented of Rules made by the Board of Trade under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers To Questions

Royal Navy

Flogging

1.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty at what date flogging was abolished as a method of disciplinary correction in the Navy; whether any demands have since been received from admirals, captains, or others asking for its reintroduction; and whether, since the abolition of flogging, there has been observable any deterioration or improvement in the morale and discipline of the Navy?

Corporal punishment was finally suspended as regards the Navy in 1881. Without an exhaustive search it cannot be stated whether any demands have since been received for its reintroduction, but it is highly improbable that any officers who entertained such views would represent them officially to the Admiralty. There has been a gradual and very satisfactory improvement in the morale and discipline of the Navy during recent years, but it cannot be stated that this is due to the suspension of corporal punishment.

Coastguard (Rates Of Pay)

2.

asked if the question of an increase in the pay of the Coastguard can be considered in the case of those men who have no gardens with their cottages, but who have cottages only in cities and towns where the cost of provisions has increased in recent years, so that they are worse off now than they were ten years ago, and considerably worse off than they were forty years ago when the rate of pay was last settled?

I do not think that the wages of the Coastguard are insufficient, or that they have difficulty in paying their way, although some stations may be slightly better off than others. As indicated in previous replies, it is not proposed to increase the pay of the Coastguard. It is, perhaps, worth noting that a man, as a rule, does not serve for more than five years at the same station.

Admiralty Contract (Fair-Wages Clause)

3.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that the firm of. Owen and Sons, Limited, of Liverpool, who supply capstan bars, black boards, and other articles to the Navy, are paying the workmen who make them from 4s. 6d. to 8s. per week less than the standard rate of wage, and that, although the firm were parties to an agreement entered into by the employers and workmen of the district, they refuse to comply with the terms of the agreement; and whether he will strike this firm off the list of those who are invited to supply articles of the kind mentioned to the Admiralty?

No complaint as to the rate of wages paid by Messrs. Owen has previously been received. I am making inquiry into the matter.

Skilled Labourers (Bull Point)

4.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that, although thirty-eight skilled labourers at Bull Point have been granted the maximum pay of 28s. during the last seven years, they were all placed on the progressive list previous to that period, and that during these last seven years no skilled labourer has been placed on the progressive list; whether he can explain this; and whether he is aware that, in consequence of this action, an ordinary labourer with twelve months' service is eligible to receive 1s. a week more than a skilled labourer with thirteen or fourteen years' service?

The statement made in the first part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question is correct, and the reasons why no skilled labourers have been placed on the progressive scale of pay during the last seven years are, in the first place, that from 1904 onward, reductions in the number of men employed in naval ordnance depots generally were being effected, and in the second, that from the 17th February, 1910, a system of working to the mean of the scale of pay was substituted for the previous method of a progressive scale. Since that date fifty-seven men have been advanced to the skilled grade. All skilled labourers on the minimum of the scale received an advance in pay of 1s. per week from the 1st August last. I have already explained in previous answers to the hon. and gallant Member how it arises that labourers in certain cases receive more than skilled men on the minimum of the scale.

Is it not the fact that the result of the action taken is that unskilled labourers are now able to get a shilling a week more than skilled labourers?

I have explained before that the flat rate for unskilled labourers is 22s., but people doing responsible work may for a short time get 1s. or 2s. a week more for that work, and therefore in some cases they would get 24s. The minimum for a skilled labourer is 23s. Therefore in that case the unskilled labourer is getting more than the skilled labourer for the time being, but the skilled labourer can go up to 28., and in special cases to 31s.

Is it not a fact that practically anybody can do the work which is performed by the unskilled labourer at the rates referred to, whereas it takes a skilled man to do the other work?

No. For the time being the unskilled labourer is doing responsible work.

Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman that it is the policy of the Government to put unskilled labourers to do skilled work?

No. The labourers who were doing the special work for this short time are, in many cases, men who will be promoted to the rank of skilled labourers.

Hospital Accommodation (Harwich)

5 and 6.

asked (1) whether the temporary naval hospital accommodation at Harwich, which has been admitted to be unsuitable, is now closed; and (2) whether two cases of enteric fever in the Fleet at Harwich have recently had to be sent to Chatham owing to insufficient hospital accommodation on the spot; and whether a beginning has been made of making good this deficiency?

Harwich is one of those places on the East Coast which have only in recent years acquired a naval importance. The following arrangements are made for the treatment of sickness among the increasing numbers of sailors stationed there: All ordinary cases occurring in the flotillas are taken on board the parent ships, where there is the usual Service accommodation for sick, and are transferred to Chatham Naval Hospital at convenient opportunities; urgent and serious cases are accommodated at Shotley, opposite to Harwich and half a mile away, where there is a well-appointed naval hospital belonging to the Shotley training establishment. In ordinary times there is room in this hospital for treating such naval cases, but if there were to be an unusual amount of sickness among the boys at Shotley difficulties in providing accommodation might arise. My right hon. Friend is therefore making provision in the forthcoming Estimates for certain extensions at Shotley Hospital which will effectually provide against such a contingency. My right hon. Friend is not prepared, as at present advised, to ask Parliament to build a separate naval hospital on the Harwich side of the water, as that would involve duplication of services and heavy expenditure. A case of enteric fever was recently sent from Harwich to Chatham for treatment because the patient himself elected to be sent to Chatham Hospital, and his condition at the time is stated to have warranted that course.

"Dreadnoughts"

7.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Board adheres to the policy which provided for the maintenance of a 60 per cent, superiority over Germany in "Dreadnoughts" and for an increase in that margin as pre "Dreadnoughts" decline in relative fighting value; and, if so, what will be our percentage superiority over Germany in completed "Dreadnoughts" on 1st April, 1914?

These argumentative questions are very suitable for discussion when Navy Estimates are presented.

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to decline to answer that question?

My hon. Friend must see that it is quite impossible to deal adequately with it within the time at the disposal of the House and by way of question and answer.

Personnel

8.

asked whether, in view of the fact that it is the stated policy of the Board to maintain a greater superiority than 60 per cent, in armoured ships, cruisers, and destroyers over the next naval Power, the necessary steps will be taken to ensure that we maintain a greater superiority than 60 per cent, in the active list personnel?

The manning requirements of the Navy depend upon the fleets which it is necessary to maintain in commission, and no standard based on the numbers of a foreign navy would be applicable. As a matter of fact, however the margin of superiority in personnel which the hon. Member recommends has been, and continues to be, more than fully maintained.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if we are to maintain this superiority of trained men we shall require 23,500 men added to the personnel in 1915?

Is the right hon. Gentleman sure that he will be able to secure the necessary addition to the personnel after his action towards the shipwrights?

Battleship "Conqueror"

9.

asked on what date the battleship "Conqueror" was due for delivery from the contractors; whether she is shown in the Navy List as having been commissioned on 23rd November for service in the Second Battle Squadron; whether, as a matter of fact, 16th January was the date arranged for placing the ship in full commission; whether her commissioning has been again postponed and, if so, for what reason; and when it is expected that the vessel will be ready to join the Fleet?

The contract date for completion was the 31st March last. The reply to the second, third, and fourth-parts of the question is in the affirmative, the postponement being due to certain defects in connection with the turret gun machinery, which are being rectified. The vessel is expected to be ready to join the Fleet in three weeks' time.

His Majesty's Ships (Naval Traders)

10.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his decision with regard to the exclusion of naval traders from His Majesty's ships is final, and, if so, is he aware that, owing to the exclusion of these traders, distress exists amongst the persons directly and indirectly affected thereby; whether, since the exclusion of these traders, the canteens are selling uniform clothing; will he explain why officers are allowed to have their own tradesmen visit them on board ship and the men refused a similar advantage; and will he cause notices to be posted up in the ships informing the men that orders previously given to naval traders can be completed ashore?

This is a matter to which great care and attention have been given, and the decision to exclude traders from His Majesty's ships must be regarded as final. There has been no representation from the Fleet that any inconvenience has been experienced in consequence of these orders, and presumably the only effect, so far as purchases are concerned, is that the men may have transferred their custom to other traders. Any inconvenience or, as the hon. Gentleman puts it, distress, which may have been caused will therefore only be of a temporary nature until matters have adjusted themselves to the new conditions. No tailor-made clothing is allowed to be sold in the canteens, and the articles of clothing which may be sold there are strictly limited. The object of the excluding Order is to put an end to the touting for orders, which has been a feature of the past. If there is any reason to apprehend that the visits of tradesmen to officers are accompanied by anything in the nature of touting for orders, then we shall certainly consider the further extension of the excluding Order.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what he is pleased to call "touting" has been continued for years as part of the Admiralty machinery, and that the abrupt cessation of this touting, as he calls it, is causing great distress amongst women engaged in naval trading?

Both the statements of the hon. Gentleman are incorrect. It may have been the practice, but it was no part of the Admiralty regime, and there was no abrupt cessation of the practice. We gave due notice, and the men have leave at present to go ashore. We thought it better that the bluejackets should go ashore for their purchases.

Service By Proclamation'

11.

asked whether seamen under fifty-five years of age, if called upon by the Admiralty for service, by proclamation or otherwise, are entitled to receive their travelling expenses, and, on re-entry, the same good conduct pay as when pensioned; whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that men having the rating of chief carpenter's mate were called up last year to attend the naval manœuvres for a month, that they were not given travelling expenses, and did not receive their badge money, being only paid 4s. 9d. as chief carpenter's mate, when they should have received 5s.; and whether he will cause inquiries to be made into the matter so that the men in question may be duly compensated?

Good conduct pay is payable to all pensioners when called out for service in the Fleet, but not when voluntarily serving, as at manœuvres, unless specially sanctioned. On the occasion of the last manœuvres certain pensioner artisan ratings were asked to volunteer for temporary service under conditions which were stated at the time, and did not include good conduct pay. The question of allowing good conduct pay on future occasions is under consideration. Travelling expenses are repayable under the Regulations to all seamen when called out for service in the Fleet or attendance at naval manœuvres. I am not aware of the particular cases referred to by the hon. Gentleman in which travelling expenses were disallowed, but if details are furnished I will cause the matter to be investigated.

Royal Dockyards (Mex Discharged)

12.

asked how many men have been discharged from the Royal dockyards since 1st December, 1912; how many of these men had served five, seven, ten, and over ten years, respectively; what steps, if any, were taken to absorb the redundant men in any vacancies existing in other departments; and how many men were by this means: saved from discharge from the Works Department?

The number of men discharged from the Royal dockyards as being in excess of requirements—i.e.,excluding the discharges on account of age, invaliding, or at the men's own request —during the period referred to is 167. This figure includes forty-six men who were entered temporarily for a short period for specific work. Of those discharged, sixteen had served for five years, five for seven years, one for ten years, and eleven for over ten years. Inquiries were made locally at the time of the discharges to ascertain which of the redundant men could be absorbed in other departments, and twelve men were by this means saved from discharge from the Works Department. In addition to the twelve transferred, three men discharged have since been re-entered in other departments, and six are now being employed as casual workmen. I may remind the hon. Gentleman that as regards the discharges in question from the Devon-port Works Department, he has already been informed that these discharges were rendered necessary by the completion of the works in hand. I may also tell him, further, that as an act of consideration, we continued the engagement of a number of these men over the Christmas season.

Are we to understand that these long service men will be taken on again as soon as vacancies occur?

We discharged 167 men out of about 50,000 because there was not work. For those who have got over seven years' service there is a gratuity. As soon as there is work for them they shall certainly be considered. I do not know whether the hon. Member would keep them when there is no work to do.

"How To Join The Royal Navy"

13.

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman contemplates a new and revised edition of the pamphlet entitled "How to Join the Royal Navy," and, if so, when that edition will be available for distribution?

A new edition is now in the press, and a supply is expected very shortly.

Royal Flying Coups (Naval Wing)

14.

asked whether the First Lord of the Admiralty has selected a number of sites round the coast for hydroplane stations; and whether he is contemplaing any large extension of the Naval Wing of the Royal Flying Corps?

16.

asked if several stations and garages for aeroplanes and dirigibles are to be established on the East Coast of England to accommodate the aircraft which may be employed by the Admiralty in the North Sea?

The establishment of aircraft bases on the East and South Coasts, as well as the general development of the Naval Wing of the Royal Flying Corps, are both questions that are receiving the close attention that their importance demands.

Shipwiughts

15.

asked whether the Department has received any protest from the naval shipwrights relative to the new conditions of pay and service; whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that these new conditions deprive naval shipwrights of certain advantages promised to them on joining unless they are prepared to give up the right of reverting to the dockyards after completing twelve years' service; whether he is aware that a boy entering the Navy as a shipwright from the dockyard under the new agreement is practically in a worse position than a man joining from outside, seeing that on entering the outside man immediately becomes a petty officer, while it takes a naval apprentice from the age of eighteen one or two years in the yard and twelve months in the Navy as leading seaman, making two or three years altogether, before he can get first-class petty officer rating; and whether, in the circumstances, he will reconsider the recent changes in the naval shipwright ratings so as to bring them more into line with the traditions governing service in His Majesty's Navy?

No protest has been received since the issue of the circular letter giving the conditions in detail, of which I sent the hon. Gentleman a copy, though I received a telegram alluding to one aspect of the question on the day of the issue of the circular. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative. As regards the third part, a man who enters the Navy as shipwright from outside will do so as petty officer. He must be over twenty-one. Boys who are trained for shipwrights in the dockyards enter between fourteen and sixteen, would be rated leading seaman between nineteen and twenty-one, and petty officer between twenty and twenty-two. The age for attaining petty officer rating averages the same in each case. The answer to the fourth part is in the negative. The changes made are very favourable to the men who accept them, as I have already explained. In fact, I may say that the amount spent on the shipwrights is proportionately greater than on any other class.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the alternative offered by the Admiralty to the shipwrights is to their disadvantage?

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept from me a statement showing the incorrectness of his reply?

The reply I gave the hon. Gentleman on the 13th of this month was a detailed statement of the new pay, and I repeat that the changes made were very favourable to the men, and certainly of the money spent, this class, having regard to its numbers, received a greater proportion than any other class.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the shipwrights regard the arrangement as very unfair, and that they were forced to sign a paper damaging to their future prospects, and, as they consider, against their original contract?

They were asked to choose the new scale and give up the right to go back to the yard or stick to the old scale. We have taken care to secure that if they do go back to the yard the establishment shall be open to them, over and above the existing establishment.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only about forty-six out of 600 shipwrights have been got to sign the paper, and will the right hon. Gentleman kindly deal with that question? I have carefully looked into the matter, and it looks as if it was really unfair to the men who are asked to sign against their original contract?

My expectation is that the circular letter which was issued will deal with all these matters of detail, and will remove all those misapprehensions. I certainly give an undertaking to look into the matter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow a certain specified time to elapse before captains of vessels force the men to sign the paper?

Captains of vessels do not force the men at any time. It is at the men's option to sign or not to sign.

West Africa (British Colonies)

17.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will say how many European and native doctors, respectively, are employed in the British Colonies of West Africa?

The numbers (including those employed in the British Protectorates) but exclusive of doctors not in the Government service, as to whose numbers I have no information, are respectively 214 and 7.

British Army

Horse And Field Artillehy

18.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to say how many cadres of Horse and Field Artillery are to be abolished, and how many batteries of either are to be absorbed?

The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Colonel Seely) : I have nothing at present to add to the replies which I have already given to the hon. and gallant Gentleman on this subject.

Having regard to the fact that it is extremely difficult to form a cadre once it has been abolished, will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to guarantee that this House shall have an opportunity to discuss the matter before Parliament rises?

I do not think it reasonable to suggest that the rearrangement of the Artillery rendered necessary by the return of the Artillery from South Africa, should be fully discussed here before the whole of the rearrangements are yet completed. I will give the fullest information on the point, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman may be assured that no steps will be taken which will in any way weaken the Artillery. The steps taken will be with a view to increasing the striking force.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that to abolish the cadres is to decrease the efficiency of the Artillery?

Cavalry Remounts

19.

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman is yet in a position to say by what date approximately a complete complement of Cavalry remounts will be available for the 15th Hussars?

How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to mobilise in a few weeks if he cannot mount one regiment?

The Army as a whole and this regiment in particular will be ready for mobilisation at once.

No; with horses, and with a greater complement of horses than the Cavalry has ever had before in the history of the country.

May I ask how it is he is obliged to take the Mounted Infantry cobs from one regiment to another?

It is very inconvenient to discuss this by question and answer, but it would have been a most ridiculous and extravagant proceeding to attempt to get rid of all these excellent horses, for the purposes of war as well as of peace, all at once in a hurry, just because we had a regiment returning home; the arrange- ment that has been made by the military authorities has been the best possible, and an excellent arrangement.

I have mentioned the Mounted Infantry are being reduced in number and that the cobs available are excellent cobs, and I can imagine no commander in the field would be otherwise than delighted to have them at his disposal.

Royal Flying Corps

20.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether it has been decided that the majority of future orders to be given to independent aeroplane constructors shall be for machines to the B design; and, if so, whether, in fairness to the industry, he will take steps to announce this decision?

21.

asked the right hon. Gentleman whether it is intended that any civilian aviator accepting a commission in the Reserve of the Royal Flying Corps can in no case be given a commission in that section of the Regular Forces comprised in the Military Wing; whether the nearest approach to permanent service is that he may volunteer for four years' continuous service with the Military Wing and remain during that period in the Reserve; and, if so, whether, in view of the pledges given, he will explain why these civilian aviators are so treated?

An officer of the Special Reserve Royal Flying Corps can compete for a commission in the Regular Forces subject to the usual conditions. If he is not a candidate for the Regular Army, his term of service in the Royal Flying Corps is four years, subject to extension.

22.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the motor vehicles, said to be capable of transporting the squadrons of the Royal Flying Corps by road, are designed to transport aeroplanes or merely the personnel of the squadrons; and, if so, whether there are sufficient wagons to act as transport for more than a single squadron on a war footing?

The answer to the first part of the question is that the motor vehicles mentioned are designed to carry aeroplanes, equipment, and stores, as well as personnel. The reply to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. Arrangements have already been completed for transport for the Military Wing of the Royal Flying Corps on mobilisation.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of these motor transport vehicles are now ready?

23.

asked the right hon. Gentleman whether the fact that a number of different officers of the Royal Flying Corps habitually fly the same machine is due to the exercise of the discretion of the officer commanding the Military Wing and of the officers commanding squadrons, or whether it is due chiefly to the scarcity of machines; whether in time of war it would be necessary to have a number of aeroplanes for each officer's use instead of a number of officers for each aeroplane; and whether he has considered the advisability of establishing an aeroplane remount department?

24.

asked whether, of the thirteen monoplanes classed as being in flying order, in spite of possible alterations which may be considered necessary, eleven of them, namely, six Deperdussins, four Flanders, and one Bleriot, have ever been flown by Regular officers of the Royal Flying Corps, and, if so, how many of these have been so flown; whether, under these circumstances, there are at the moment more than fifteen aeroplanes, including monoplanes and biplanes, belonging to the Military Wing of the Royal Flying Corps immediately available for use in time of war; and whether this number is adequate?

Of the thirteen monoplanes mentioned only three have not been flown by officers of the Royal Flying Corps, namely, two Howard Flanders and one Martin Handasyde. The reply to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.

Territorial Force (Volunteer Duty)

25.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the danger caused to other parts of the Metropolitan area by the concentration of large bodies of the police force for the protection of individuals occupying this building and the additional work thereby thrown on members of the force, he will authorise, if applied for, the services of such units of the Territorial Force as may volunteer for picket or sentry duty in the precincts of Westminster?

Royal House Artillery

26.

asked what are the names of the officers now serving in AA and BB batteries of the Royal Horse Artillery?

At the present time Captain Curling and Lieutenant Lanyon are serving with AA battery, which is ordered home from India; and Major Monkhouse and Lieutenants Ward and Gifford with BB battery, which is ordered home from South Africa.

What has happened to other officers who were serving in this regiment?

If the hon. Gentleman will put down a question I will tell him, as I have not got the whole destinations in my head at the moment.

I have been asked a definite question as to the names of the officers in two batteries, and I have given a reply.

Sir R. POLE-CAREW rose—

The hon. and gallant Gentleman should really take the trouble to put down the question. If he thinks it is of sufficient importance to ask it is of sufficient importance to be put down.

Horse Rugs

27.

asked whether the cost of providing horse rugs for the horses of their units is still borne by the officers of the mounted units of the Regular Army; whether there is any immediate prospect of the Army Council removing this charge from the officers; and how many mounted units have adopted the suggestion of the Army Council that horses standing in stables during the winter do not require rugs at all?

The question of making an allowance for the provision of horse rugs is now under consideration.

How long do the War Office and Army Council intend to consider this question, which I asked a year ago, and to which I got the same answer?

We shall consider it until we have come to a conclusion. We shall come to a conclusion very soon in a sense which the hon. Gentleman will probably be pleased to see.

In considering this question, will the right hon. Gentleman make investigation to discover if there is any other Army in the world in which the officers have to do this instead of the State?

The question is not so simple as the Noble Lord seems to think. I will send him a memorandum about it.

Officers' Uniforms

28.

asked whether, considering that it has not been found practicable to create a special branch of the Army Clothing Department to deal with officers' uniforms, and that though there is nothing in the Regulations to prevent a regiment from making an arrangement with a military outfitter regarding the supply of uniform and equipment, still little can be done in this respect when the supply required is only for one regiment, the War Office will undertake to make a general arrangement with some firm or firms to enable officers of all branches of the Service to purchase uniform, and equipment at a more reasonable rate than they can at present; and, if not, what steps the War Office propose to take in the matter?

Some few years ago an experiment was tried of supplying officers on appointment with lists of tailors willing to provide uniforms at certain cash prices; the experiment did not meet with success or with general approval in this House, and the practice was discontinued. The question of finding some other means of enabling officers to purchase uniforms at a less cost than that now prevailing is being considered.

Will that be considered in time for inclusion in next year's Estimates?

I shall certainly keep on considering this difficult question. If the hon. and gallant Member can make me any suggestion I shall be glad to have it. Every proposal on this question has been found not to work well.

Will the War Office try something to cheapen the cost of the uniforms of officers?

It is not very easy to arrive at that desirable result, and if, as I say, the hon. Gentleman has any suggestion I would be glad to have it.

Woolwich Arsenal

29.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that his predecessor gave a promise to the men at the Royal Arsenal that there should not be a reduction of piece rates unless an improved method of manufacture was introduced and that, notwithstanding this promise, young men of between eighteen and twenty years of age have been employed in the metal case factory, Royal Laboratory Department, Woolwich, at rates 33 per cent, less than the rates paid to the men; and if he will arrange that all work be paid at the same rate whether performed by old or new hands?

I cannot agree that boys should be paid the full wages of men; and I cannot admit that the promise referred to contemplated anything of the kind.

May I ask whether the promise mentioned in the question was actually given?

Yes, the promise was given, but it does not cover this case, but the case of the men only.

Can the hon. Gentleman say why it is there should be any alteration made seeing that it is piece rates that are under consideration?

I explained before that this work was very suitable for boys. We have often been pressed by hon. Members from the benches below the Gangway to retain boys, and having suitable work we thought it better to retain them.

Food Taxes

30.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can indicate the nature of the taxation it is proposed to introduce to take the place of the present heavy taxes on food which the Government proposes to remove?

I am at present unable to make any statement with regard to the Budget proposals for the coming year.

May I ask whether the House is to understand that notwithstanding statements that have been made, the present taxes on comestibles used on the breakfast-table are still to be continued?

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the fact that a tax of a penny in the pound on the capital value of land would result in a sufficient sum to meet all the revenue at present derived from food taxes and give a handsome surplus, and will he keep that fact before him?

Land Value Duties

32.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the grounds on which the Commissioners of Inland Revenue claim payment of Increment Value Duty on fortuitous windfalls and other profits when there has been no rise in the value of the site since 30th April, 1909?

Where there has been a fortuitous windfall, and a price has been obtained in excess of the market value, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue can claim Increment Value Duty under Sub-section (2) of Section 2 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, as interpreted by the recent judgment of the High Court.

Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that on the first Budget debates any statement was made by a Member of the Government that it was intended to tax fortuitous windfalls and other profits of the builder's business?

That question has been asked and answered repeatedly, and has been the subject of debate repeatedly, and I have no doubt it will be again, and we cannot discuss it by question and answer.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it will encourage building enterprise?

Building Trade Statistics

33.

asked whether the increase in the number of cottages and small houses in the year 1910–11, namely, 10,651, is the lowest on record for the past fifteen years?

In the year 1910–11, which was a year of revised assessments, the increase in the number of cottages and small houses exempted from Inhabited House Duty was less than in the preceding fifteen years, but the figures are not the lowest on record, those for the last year of new assessment prior to the period selected by the hon. Member having shown a decrease. As I have previously stated, the figures for 1911–12 so far as they are available point to an increase for that year as large as in any of the four years prior to 1910–11, so that there is no evidence from these statistics of any general decline in the erection of cottages and small houses.

National Insurance Act

Medical Benefit

31.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the misapprehension as to the Government's intentions with regard to free choice of doctors by insured persons, he will, in order to prevent a similar misunderstanding in future, give some kind of official form to the pledge given by him on the 2nd January to deal with any grievances which may arise as regards the working of medical benefit?

34.

asked which, if any, insurance committees have permitted doctors to join the panel and limit, by their agreements, the number of insured persons to be treated by them to those whom they agree to treat without having others assigned to them?

The conditions under which insured persons in each area may be allotted to the doctors on the panel are laid down in Section 15 (2) (d) of the National Insurance Act, and the Regulations of the Commissioners. It is within the discretion of the insurance committee, subject to those conditions, to make such arrangements as will limit the number of insured persons for whose treatment any particular doctor will be responsible. I am not aware which insurance committee have made arrangements with doctors on the panel granting such limitations.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire whether any insurance committees have made these arrangements? Will he also notify insurance committees that they can act in this way?

I think my answer will be quite sufficient notification. I have no knowledge that they are in ignorance on the subject.

35.

asked whether local insurance committees are entitled to fix a limit of five days in which insured persons desirous of making their own arrangements for medical benefit have to apply for the form, thus excluding a large number of persons who had not received the medical benefit ticket, which in certain cases it has been stated must be brought when application is made, from availing themselves of the provisions of Section 16 (3) of the Act?

I am not aware of any case in 'which such a time limit has been fixed. If the hon. Member has any case in mind, and will supply me with the particulars, I will make inquiries.

37.

asked where Messrs. Morgan and Dimmock practised as doctors prior to their appointment under the National Insurance Act?

Dr. Morgan practised in London. Dr. Dimmock has held important hospital appointments in London and the provinces.

Has either of these doctors practised in the district in which he now resides?

In the districts in which they have now taken up residence? I do not think that either of them has.

38 and 39.

asked (1) upon what terms Messrs. Morgan and Dimmock have been engaged as doctors for the purpose of the National Insurance Act to work in the Isle of Ely, and whether they have been assured that they shall have a monopoly of practice among insured persons in that district; and (2) whether the insurance committee having jurisdiction in the Isle of Ely have allowed insured persons to make their own arrangements with doctors not on the panel in that district, or is the right of free choice of doctor limited to Messrs. Morgan and Dimmock?

The Insurance Commissioners, upon the application of the Isle of Ely insurance committee, and after inquiry, have satisfied themselves that the number of doctors on the list in two districts was not such as to secure an adequate medical service, and have, therefore, authorised the committee to make special arrangements for the attendance of insured persons in these districts. Under these arrangements one doctor in Chatteris and three in Wisbech have undertaken complete responsibility for all the insured persons in these districts.

Has the panel system been superseded in this district? If so, was it by the insurance committee or by the Insurance Commissioners?

The ordinary system—the list system, if I may so describe it—under Section 15 of the Act, has been suspended, and a scheme suggested by the insurance committee has been accepted by the Commissioners.

Has the panel been closed? If so, for how long? Is it true that it is closed for two years?

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question on the Paper—

I was asking for an answer to the question on the Paper. I submit that it has not been answered.

I really think that that is enough, considering the number of other Members who have questions on the Paper.

55.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in the interests of insured persons, he will arrange that the names of all doctors willing to serve on the panels shall be placed on the public lists immediately on receipt of the knowledge of their willingness to serve?

Names of additional doctors joining the panels are kept at the offices of the insurance committees. Revised lists are published by the insurance committees at convenient intervals, but it would not be practicable for each committee to print and distribute a new list upon the receipt of each additional name.

Would it not be possible, without much trouble, to put the names of the additional doctors down in handwriting?

The list goes round to many hundreds of places, and it would be difficult to arrange that.

56.

asked if the Insurance Commissioners have received complaints from doctors on the panels that an excessive and unnecessary amount of their time is taken up in filling up forms and returns and doing other clerical work to the detriment of their useful medical work; and if steps will be taken to diminish this clerical work and arrange for it to be carried out in some other manner?

The Insurance Commissioners are anxious to receive any suggestions from doctors on the panel for simplification or improvement of the methods of keeping records and returns which their experience may show to be desirable and inquiries are being made by officials of the Commission from doctors on the panel in various districts as to their experience of work under the Act. Such suggestions as are being obtained, either by inquiry or correspondence, are receiving the careful consideration of the Commissioners.

Why was this work which was formerly carried out by club secretaries ever put upon the doctors at all?

The work of keeping the records of illnesses when the Bill was being passed through this House was regarded by both sides as being a most important piece of work.

Is there any necessity for the doctors to take three copies of the record of illnesses?

I think there is, as at present advised, but that may be a point for consideration.

Insurance Commissioners And Ministers

45.

asked the Prime Minister how long a period is likely to elapse before the National Health Insurance Commissioners will be in a position as regards departmental matters to act independently and to come to decisions on their own initiative and without oversight by and on instructions from Ministers?

The relation of the Commissioners to Ministers is as explained more than once by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, and defined in a Treasury minute of which I will send a copy to the hon. Gentleman. It will be impossible for the Commissioners or any other Government Department at any time to act without oversight or instructions of Ministers, who are responsible to Parliament for the expenditure by those Departments of money which Parliament votes for the purpose.

Are not the Insurance Commissioners, who have this matter particularly under their care, more conversant than Ministers with what is most for the benefit of the insured persons?

The hon. Member must know that the constitutional responsibility of Ministers means the responsibility of Parliament. If you allowed anybody else to act instead of Ministers, you would infringe the authority of Parliament.

Insured Persons (Number)

53.

asked what are the numbers of insured persons under the National Insurance Act who are members of approved societies and deposit contributors, respectively, and the proportion in each case of single and married women?

The approximate numbers of members of approved societies and of deposit contributors are 13 ¼ millions and 480,000, respectively. The numbers of men and women are about 10 millions and 3 ¾ millions, respectively. The numbers of single and married women are not available at present, as the distinction is not required for immediate administrative purposes.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take the necessary steps to see if it is possible to obtain the numbers both of single and married women?

I think as soon as I have the full particulars I shall be able to get at that.

Does the right hon. Gentleman know that the doctors themselves attribute importance to this information as regard the two different sections?

Bricklayers And Joiners (Widnes)

62 and 63.

asked (1) whether the bricklayers and joiners employed at the Vine Works, Orr's Zinc White Paint Works, Widnes, are insured under Part II. of the National Insurance Act; and, if not, whether the Umpire has given any decisions in these cases; what is the name of the firm or company employ- ing these men; and have any letters or communications passed between the Board of Trade and the employers concerning the inclusion or exclusion of these men; and (2) whether the boilermakers, blacksmiths, bricklayers, and stonemasons employed at Deacon's Works, Widnes, are insured under Part II. of the National Insurance Act; and, if not, whether the Umpire has given decisions in the cases of these men and what is the name of the firm or company employing these men; and have any letters or communications passed between the Board of Trade and the employers concerning the inclusion or exclusion of these men?

I am making inquiries into the points raised in the hon. Member's two questions, and will communicate the results to him as soon as they are available.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether any communications have taken place between the employers and the Board of Trade already, and what are the names of the employers?

Contributors' Cards

69.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will give facilities for persons insured under the National Insurance Act to return their cards through the post without a stamp, as is the case in Income Tax matters?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to questions on this subject asked by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury on 31st October last and by the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon on 6th December last.

Agriculture Statistics

40 and 41.

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture (1) what is the average yield per acre in the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, the United States, Canada, and any other country having official Returns, of hay, cereal corn, and root crops, respectively; and (2) what is the average number of horses, bovine cattle, sheep, and pigs per acre in the United Kingdom; and what is the average number of the same live stock in France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, the United States, Canada, and any other countries making official Returns?

The information for which the hon. Member asks in these two questions is contained in Part V. of the Board's Agricultural Statistics, which is now in the press. I shall be pleased to send him an advance copy.

Small Holdings

42.

asked whether any county councils, other than the Cheshire County Council, have constituted small holdings on the colony system; whether this system is developing; and whether the Board, through the Small Holdings Commissioners, advise its adoption by county councils wherever practicable?

Several county councils besides Cheshire have acquired large estates for the purpose of small holdings and may therefore be said to have established small holdings on the colony system. The Board are certainly in favour of the purchase of land in large blocks whenever possible, and county councils are usually of the same opinion. But, owing to the fact that applicants for small holdings are often not in a position to move from their present homes, it is not possible to satisfy the whole of the demand by means of the establishment of colonies.

Could the right hon. Gentleman give in a written answer the county councils other than the Cheshire County Council which have adopted the system?

Yes. If the hon. Gentleman will put down an unstarred question I will arrange to have full information circulated with the Votes.

43.

asked whether, in consequence of the bad harvest season and floods of last year, any applications have, to the knowledge of the Board, been made to county councils by statutory small holders for remissions of rent; and whether, in conformity with the practice of private landowners in the locality, such applications have been acceded to in any and, if any, which counties, and at whose expense have such remissions been made?

No official communications on the subject have been made to the Board, but I understand that in some cases county councils have received applications from small holders for remission of rents in consequence of the losses caused by floods last year. If a remission is made, the deficiency falls upon the small holdings account of the council, and, if that account cannot meet the deficiency, the Board may pay one-half of the loss in accordance with the conditions laid down in the Treasury Minute of the 31st December, 1907, a copy of which I shall be pleased to send to the hon. Member.

Have any applications been made for half to be paid out of the small holdings accounts of the Board?

I do not think that any applications have actually been received, but I understand that one or two are coming forward.

Is not the difficulty of the small holders more due to high rents and rates?

No. The difficulty is entirely due to a flood which destroyed the whole of their produce.

Irish Hay And Straw (Removal Of Restrictions)

44.

asked whether it is intended to remove on 1st February the restrictions that have been imposed on the importation of hay and straw from Ireland; and, if so, what steps will be taken to prevent hay and straw coming from districts still affected by disease?

An Order has been issued, and will come into operation tomorrow, removing the restrictions at present imposed upon the importation of Irish hay and straw into Great Britain. I have no reason to believe that any part of Ireland is now affected with foot-and-mouth disease.

In view of the very grave danger that, at such a short distance of time, infection may still be lurking in hay and straw from infected districts, would it not be far wiser to put off the removal of restrictions for a considerably longer period?

The last confirmed case in Ireland was on 2nd November. I am advised that there is no risk of the conveyance of infection by hay and straw, considering the long lapse of time, and particularly the fact that no hay or straw is coming forward or is likely to come forward from that particular district.

Will this arrangement include hay and straw which has been used for packing abroad, and subsequently transhipped from Ireland to this country?

There are no restrictions on hay and straw used for packing, as the hon. Member, having been a Member of the Departmental Committee which considered the matter, knows.

Government Of Ireland Bill

Redistribution

46.

asked whether any measure for the redistribution of electoral areas in the forthcoming Session of Parliament will be consequent to and depending on the Government of Ireland Bill being made operative?

I can add nothing to the replies given by my right hon. Friend, the Prime Minister, on this subject on the 16th and 20th instant.

Does the so-called right of Ireland to have a hundred Members terminate when the Government of Ireland Bill becomes a Statute?

Registration And Election (Expenses)

47.

asked whether, in view of the fact that a Bill may be introduced next Session which, if placed on the Statute Book, may add to the roll of electors over eleven million names, it is the intention of the Government in any franchise, registration, or electoral reform which they may introduce to deal with the expenses of registration and election now thrown on candidates for a seat in Parliament, and which will be increased with any addition to the present electorate?

I must refer the hon. Member to the reply given on this subject by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to a question on 23rd January by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh.

Women Suffrage

48.

asked whether the promise of facilities for a Women Suffrage Bill next Session will be given to a Bill for adult female suffrage, or to a Bill for female suffrage on the Norwegian system, or to a Bill to enfranchise female house holders?

As was explained on Monday, this is a matter for the supporters of the movement to decide amongst themselves.

Admiralty Arch (Approach)

49.

asked the hon. Member for St. George' s-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether his Department is responsible for the unsightly condition of the Charing Cross approach to the Admiralty Arch; and, if not, whether he can take steps to induce the responsible authorities speedily to amend what is at present a disfigurement of one of the finest sites in London?

This is a matter outside the jurisdiction of the Office of Works, and one for the London County Council to deal with.

Underground Tramways (Metropolis)

50.

asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, with a view to diminishing the existing congestion of London streets, his Department has at any time discussed with the London County Council the possibility of allowing underground tramways to be made under thoroughfares and land within the jurisdiction of the Office of Works in such a manner as not to interfere with the amenities of any street or path beneath whose surface such tramways might be run?

The possibility of allowing subways for tramways under land, etc., in the control of the Department was discussed with the London County Council in 1906. The First Commissioner is prepared to consider any further representations which the council may make on the subject.

House Of Commons (Tape Machine)

51.

asked whether the First Commissioner is able to comply with the request made by the signatories to a memorial to him asking that an additional tape machine may be obtained for the convenience of Members; and, if so, where has he decided to put it?

In response to the request received from the hon. Member, the First Commissioner has given instructions that an Exchange Telegraph tape machine shall be installed. He would be glad to receive the views of hon. Members as to where the machine should be placed.

Old Age Pensions

50.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been called to a meeting of the Kerry old age pension committee in reference to the resignation of the Ardfert pension committee; whether he agrees with the views of pension officers as therein stated regarding means of applicants for old age pensions; whether officers have been given any instruction from headquarters as to the manner in which they are to estimate means; and whether, in view of the conduct of pension officers in this matter, he will have a sworn inquiry with a view to ascertaining the real facts?

I have seen a newspaper report of the proceedings of a meeting of the Kerry old age pension committee on the 13th instant, to which the hon. Member no doubt refers. I understand that the Local Government Board, whose decision is final, agreed with the pension officers in the cases in question that the value of maintenance and other privilege enjoyed by the claimants exceeded £31 10s. per annum. There does not appear to me to be any necessity for an inquiry of the kind suggested.

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the report by which these officers arrived at their estimate?

No, I asked the hon. Member to furnish me with figures when he put a similar question a few weeks ago, and he has not yet furnished them.

Does the right hon. Gentleman hold with these officers, who appear to think that a farmer in Ireland has no right to give his farm to his son when he is about to die?

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the Irish Members any information as to the basis—the cost of living and so on—on which this estimate was based, and whether it was made by the pension officers or the Local Government Board?

I did not ask the hon. Member for a supplementary question, but to put it on the Paper.

Timber Deck-Loads

59.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will lay upon the Table of the House copies of any regulations now in force in Holland, Belgium, France, and Germany, respectively, as to the carriage of deck-loads of heavy or other timber by sea going vessels owned by the subjects or entering the ports of those countries?

So far as my present information goes, I am not aware of any specific regulations with regard to-the carriage of deck-loads of timber in ships in force in the countries named, but I will make further inquiries as to the present position of the question abroad and inform the hon. Member of the result.

Locomotive Drivers (Eyesight Test)

60.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in respect to the tube system of railways in the case of accidents caused by disregard of signals, it is the practice of the Board of Trade to examine the drivers for colour vision; whether, if so, he can state what method of testing is adopted; whether it has proved entirely satisfactory; whether the colour vision of the driver who ran past the danger signal at Caledonian Road on 4th September was found to be normal; whether more than one method of testing was employed; and, if so, whether the results obtained were consistent?

The only accident of this kind on a tube railway into which an inquiry has been held on behalf of the Board of Trade was the collision at Caledonian Road station in September last. The inspecting officer who held the inquiry did not consider it necessary -to have the colour vision of the motor man concerned specially tested, but it appeared from the evidence that the man's eyesight had been tested by the company in the previous March, and been found to be satisfactory.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these men are tested for colour; if so, whether they are tested by the ordinary skein or by lamp?

As regards the railway companies I cannot answer, but I will make inquiries.

Labour Exchanges

61.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is a Labour Exchange at Brixton and, if not, if he will state how far the Brixton Town Hall is from the nearest Exchange?

The nearest Exchange to the Brixton Town Hall is at Camberwell, 1½ miles distant.

Emigration (Building Trade)

64.

asked if there is any information among the Emigration Returns showing that an excessive number of persons connected with the building trade have left this country during the past three years?

The entries in the passenger lists of passengers' occupations are in many cases so vague and unsatisfactory that ten years ago the attempt to tabulate these entries by separate trades was abandoned. I regret, therefore, that I am not able to give the information desired.

School Children (Medical Inspection)

57.

asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that not only do local authorities have to pay the whole cost of the medical inspection of school children, but if, on the advice of the medical officer, they exclude children from school or compel their attendance at centres for remedial treatment they suffer a further loss of Grants owing to their absence; and if he proposes, by legislation or otherwise, to remove this burden from the ratepayers?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. My right hon. Friend has received no evidence to show that the reduction of Grant due to exclusion of children from school for the reasons mentioned in the question has, in fact, been substantial. He is considering how far it is possible to effect a reconstruction of the system of Grants, but he is not in a position to make any statement on the matter.

School Buildings (Model Plans)

58.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the increased demand throughout the country for instruction in handicraft and domestic economy, and the tendency of local education authorities to construct buildings for these purposes of creosoted timber, corrugated iron, match-boarding, and other inexpensive materials, the Board can supply authorities with model plans and elevations of such buildings, and advice as to their construction and materials?

The Board are always ready to place at the disposal of local authorities all the information they have in regard to materials and buildings suitable for classes in special subjects. Experiment and development in the use of quasi-permanent material and the internal arrangement of the buildings are to be encouraged. The issue of model plans and specifications would, my right hon. Friend is afraid, tend to stereotype one particular kind of building, and would, therefore, be undesirable.

The hon. Gentleman has not quite answered my question; it was as to any information of this sort that the Board could supply to the Local Education Authorities.

Glasgow Coach Builders (Fair-Wages Clause)

65.

asked the Postmaster-General if he is yet in a position to make a statement in respect to the Board of Trade inquiry into the wages paid by Messrs. J. Hendersons, coach builders, of Glasgow, before the recent strike of the men employed by the firm?

I have inquired into this matter very fully, and have received from the Board of Trade particulars of the wages paid by a number of firms in Glasgow. There does not appear to be any standard rate for this kind of work, and the facts now before me show that the average weekly wages paid by Messrs. J. Henderson, before the recent strike, to coach bodymakers and painters were almost precisely the same as those paid by other employers of men performing work of a similar kind.

Overseas Cables

66, 67, and 68.

asked the Postmaster-General (1) whether a code word costs more to transmit by cable than a plain-language word; and, if not, whether he can give to the plain man the advantage that comes to the commercial man, who has raised coding to such a fine art that he can transfer, by cabling one word, the contents of a business letter requesting detailed quotations for an extensive waterworks plant; (2) whether he can give an accurate estimate of the cost of completing the last link in the All-Red cable; and (3) whether, from his experience of deferred cables to Australasia, he could give an estimate of the increased business that would accrue to the Pacific cable if he altered deferreds to include codes at 1s. 6d. a word, and ordinary plain language at 1s. a word?

The cost of dealing with a code word is undoubtedly greater on the average than that of dealing with a plain-language word, and this was one of the considerations which induced the cable companies to accept the system of half rates for deferred telegrams in plain language which came into operation last January. In the case of the Pacific cable, regarding which alone I have definite information, such deferred telegrams during the first half of last year constituted about 17 per cent, of the total traffic (other than Press traffic) passing over that cable between the United Kingdom and Australasia. This appears to have been largely new traffic; but I fear that I cannot from these data estimate the effect of the reductions suggested by the hon. Member. No recent estimate has been obtained of the cost of an Anglo-Canadian cable, but I understand that the cost of a cable laid in 1910 between this country and Newfoundland was about £450,000.

Telephone Service (Dublin)

70.

asked whether many applicants for telephones in the city of Dublin have had to wait for six months and more before being provided with instruments and numbers, and that old subscribers who remove to new premises are no better treated; and whether any steps are being taken to supply the citizens of Dublin with telephone facilities adequate to their growing needs and to reduce the present delay in installing instruments?

I regret that there is considerable delay in providing telephone installations in Dublin owing to the fact that, on the transfer of the National Telephone Company's system, it was found that in that city, as in many other places in the United Kingdom, there were no spare wires available for meeting the demand. Special steps have been taken to provide additional underground plant and everything possible is being done to expedite the completion of the work, which will then provide for future requirements for a considerable period.

West London School (Infectious Illnesses)

71.

asked the President of the Local Government Board the number of infectious illnesses which have visited the young children at the Park School, Harwell, since its control by the West London school managers; the number of children affected in each instance; and the duration of the illness?

I am sending the Noble Lord a statement giving particulars with regard to this matter. As to the last part of the question, precise information as to the duration of illness in each individual case could not readily be obtained.

Kent Water Supply

72.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the inadequate provision of water supplies in the rural districts of Kent, and whether he has any official information as to the number of rural parishes depending wholly or in part on open ponds for their supply of drinking water?

My attention has been called to deficiency of water supply in a few localities in rural districts in Kent, and in several cases I am in communication with the local authority. With regard to the last part of the question, I hope shortly to be in a position to publish a return of the sources of water supply in the various districts.

Vaccination (Kirkcaldy)

73.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the vaccination of Andrew Nicholson, of Kirkcaldy, aged eighty-six, was imposed upon him by a public officer without his request; and, if so, can he give some explanation of this action?

I cannot add anything t) the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Dundee on 7th January. The medical practitioner adheres to the statement which I then quoted.

Milk And Dairies

75.

asked the Secretary for Scotland if it is proposed to introduce next Session a Milk and Dairies Bill for the prevention of the production and sale of diseased and dirty milk on the same lines as that recently introduced and applicable to England and Wales and the similar Bill already promised for Ireland?

As the hon. Member is doubtless aware, a, Milk and Dairies Bill was introduced in another place by my predecessor in 1909, and was passed through Committee and Report stages. I cannot at this time pledge the Government as to next Session's legislation, but there is every intention of introducing a Scottish Bill at the earliest practicable date.

Limehouse Cut

76.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that damage has been recently caused to the property of Messrs. H. L. Raphael, adjoining the Limehouse Cut, by stone throwing and robbery; whether he will institute a searching inquiry as to the continued state of affairs by which portions of the Metropolitan boroughs of Stepney and Poplar are left wholly un protected and without security for life and property; and will he take steps to remedy the same?

The Commissioner of Police reports that he is not aware that any damage has been done to the property of Messrs. H. L. Raphael. No complaint to that effect has been made to the police. It is not the case that any public portions of the boroughs referred to are left unprotected. The protection of private property is a matter for the owners, who in the case of Limehouse Cut possess statutory powers for this purpose; but the Metropolitan police would deal with offences occurring on Limehouse Cut in the same manner as elsewhere on their being brought to notice.

77.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the condition of the waterway or navigation and towing paths adjoining known as the Limehouse Cut, whereby robberies have been committed from barges navigating in the Cut" and from premises adjacent to the Cut, and to the fact that the condition of the neighbourhood has been described as under a reign of terror owing to the conduct of a number of persons of the criminal class, and that the towing path of the Cut is a rendezvous for gamblers; whether he is aware that, upon complaint, the Metropolitan police have, notwithstanding the invitation of the Lee Conservancy Board that the police should patrol the Cut at the cost of the Board and take such steps as might be necessary for the proper protection of merchandise and premises, declined to take any steps on the ground that it was contrary to established practice for the police to patrol the towing path and banks of the navigation; and whether, notwithstanding the fact that the Board are themselves large ratepayers, this attitude on the part of the police has his sanction?

Limehouse Cut is private property, and is policed by constables appointed by the Lee Conservancy Board under the provisions of the Canals and Rivers Police Act, 1840. The Metropolitan police do not patrol private property, save in exceptional circumstances; and though the Commissioner would have been glad to assist the Lee Conservancy Board, if possible, by supplying police at the cost of the Board, he found that the towing path which he was asked to patrol was so dangerous owing to its defective condition that he was compelled to decline.

Magistracy (Ireland)

78.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will furnish the hon. Member for West Cavan with the names of the eighty-six Catholic magistrates for Cavan as set out in the Return to the hon. Member for South Down, No. 369; will he say from what source the figures set out in the said Return were procured; and, if the figures in this Return for county Cavan be wrong, will he state what are the true figures?

The Lord Chancellor informs me that it is not the practice to identify the magistrates belonging to any religious denomination by giving their names; but of the eighty-six magistrates of the county Cavan who were stated in the Return referred to as belonging to the Roman Catholic religion, the information in that respect was in seventy-seven cases obtained from the magistrates themselves, and in the other nine cases from personal knowledge or official sources.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the only public record available to Members of this House shows there are only sixty-seven, and not eighty-six?

I do not know. If seventy-seven gentlemen say they are Roman Catholics I cannot help them.

Orders Of The Day

Business Of The House

May I ask what business will be taken in the early days of next week?

On Monday and Tuesday, we will take the Report stage of the Established Church (Wales) Bill, and on Wednesday the Third Reading.

May I ask why it is that the Guillotine Resolution for the Report stage of the Welsh Bill which, I understand is the first Order to-morrow, is not on the Paper; and when it will be?

My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary was under the impression it was on the Paper; it was an oversight and the Government will repair it as soon as possible.

When will the Lords Amendments to the Scottish Temperance Bill be taken?

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that it will not be taken after eleven o'clock?

When does the Government propose to take the Railways (No. 2) Bill?

I do not think I could say now. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would give me notice.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say it will not be before Wednesday of next week?

Does the right hon. Gentleman therefore mean to take the Second Reading after eleven o'clock?

Trade Unions (No 2) Bill

As amended (in the Standing Committee), further considered.

Clause 2—(Definition Of Trade Union)

(1) The expression "trade union" for the purpose of the Trade Union Acts, 1871 to 1906, and this Act, means any combination, whether temporary or permanent, the principal objects of which are under its constitution statutory objects: Provided that any combination which is for the time being registered as a trade union shall be deemed to be a trade union as defined by this Act so long as it continues to be so registered.

(2) The Registrar of Friendly Societies shall not register any combination as a trade union unless in his opinion, having regard to the constitution of the combination, the principal objects of the combination are statutory objects, and may withdraw the certificate of registration of any such registered trade union if the constitution of the union has been altered in such a manner that, in his opinion, the principal objects of the union are no longer statutory objects, or if in his opinion the principal objects for which the union is actually carried on are not statutory objects.

(3) Any unregistered trade union may, if they think fit, at any time without registering the union apply to the Registrar of Friendly Societies for a certificate that the union is a trade union within the meaning of this Act, and the Registrar, if satisfied, having regard to the constitution of the union and the mode in which the union is being carried on, that the principal objects of the union are statutory objects, and that the union is actually carried on for those objects, shall grant such a certificate, but the Registrar may, on an application made by any person to him for the purpose, withdraw any such certificate if satisfied, after giving the union an opportunity of being heard, that the certificate is no longer justified.

(4) Any person aggrieved by any refusal of the Registrar to register a combination as a trade union, or to give a certificate that an unregistered trade union is a trade union within the meaning of this Act, or by the withdrawal under this Section of a certificate of registration, or of a certificate that an unregistered union is a trade union within the meaning of this Act, may appeal to the High Court, or in Scotland to the Court of Session, within the time and in the manner and on the conditions directed by rules of Court.

(5) A certificate of the Registrar that a trade union is a trade union within the meaning of this Act shall, so long as it is in force, be conclusive for all purposes.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (4), after the word "any" ["aggrieved by any refusal of the Registrar"], to insert the words "consent or."

This is a mere formal or verbal Amendment, and I am sure the Attorney-General will accept it. I think probably the right hon. and learned Gentleman will see that if it is right in one case that there should be a right of objection to consent there should also be a right of objection to withdrawal of consent. This Amendment is clearly in the interests of hon. Members on the Labour Benches, who especially represent trade union politics in this House, because obviously if the consent of the Registrar is already given in such cases as are contemplated in Sub-section (3) of Clause 2, it is only right that if there is anyone objecting to that consent there should also be the right to object to the action of the Registrar in withdrawing consent already given. This Amendment ought to be accepted; it is clearly what is known as the converse of the proposition. If it is right that there should be an opportunity of objection to the Registrar's consent there ought to be an opportunity for objection to the Registrar's withdrawal of consent. This Amendment cannot possibly do any member of any trade union harm, and it mainly concerns the members of trade unions, and in the interests of members of trade unions we want this amount of latitude and liberty of action. This is only a small point, but I feel confident that the Attorney-General will see, as I have already explained, that if there is a light of objection to consent there also ought to be a right of objection to the withdrawal of a certificate already granted.

I think I shall be able to satisfy the hon. Member that there is a good reason why this Amendment should not be accepted. The two cases do not stand exactly in the same position. The registration, such as it is, which has been the custom of the Registrar to perform does not injure anybody. Nobody can be hurt by a union being registered. If a union is registered and the constitution is altered application can be made to the Registrar, who would when satisfied that the facts were as stated, withdraw the certificate. [An HON. MEMBER: "Speak up."] Consequently there is a right of appeal, and that is the only right of appeal.

It is not often that I agree with the Attorney-General in the discussions we have had at the various stages of this Bill, but I think there is a good deal in what he has said. To pass this Amendment might lead to trade unions being subjected to vexatious litigation. Those who wish to safeguard the rights of the minority wish to be careful to avoid any possibility of trade unions being subjected to vexatious litigation. Therefore, I hope my hon. Friend will withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (5), to insert the following new Sub-section:—

(6) If the Registrar of Friendly Societies is of opinion that it is expedient that public notice should be given of any application to register a combination as a trade union, or for a certificate that an unregistered trade union is a trade union within the meaning of this Act, he may require the application to be advertised in the "Labour Gazette."

This is a very simple Amendment, and I do not think it will be objected to by any hon. Gentleman opposite. [An HON. MEMBER: "We do object to it."] There is no proposal which we have proposed from this side of the House on this question which has not been objected to by the hon. Member opposite. The intention of the Amendment is to enable everyone concerned to know that a trade union wishes to be registered, and it has been suggested to us that it is extremely difficult to acquaint the members of a trade union with what is going to be done. When the question of balloting the members of trade unions was under consideration it was pointed out how difficult it was to reach trade unionists in order to have a ballot. If it is difficult to reach trade unionists for the purpose of a ballot, it will be equally difficult in this case, because many members of a trade union may live a long distance from the centre of the trade union, or from the district where there is much political activity, and they may be unaware that it is the intention of the trade union to be registered. Therefore, by an Amendment, power is given to the Registrar of Friendly Societies to give public notice of any application to register a combination as a trade union, or for any certificate that an unregistered trade union is a trade union, should be advertised in the "Labour Gazette." The only objection I conceive which can be raised to this Amendment is that the effect might be to cause some person to object to the combination being registered who would not otherwise have done so. I do not think that that is ah argument against the Amendment. Although this is not an Amendment of prime importance, I think it is desirable that notice should be given to all those whom it may concern that a certain combination is going to be registered as a trade union. I have acquainted myself with the probable cost of such an advertisement in the "Labour Gazette," and I find that it is trifling. The "Labour Gazette" is widely circulated, and for these reasons I hope the Government will accept my Amendment.

May I point out to the Committee that trade unions have been registered for the last forty or fifty years, and it has never been found difficult to let the members know when they are going to be registered? As a matter of fact, before a trade union can be registered, all the members must decide the point at a general meeting, or in some other way, and they must agree that registration should take place. The suggestion has been made that it is difficult to get the opinion of the members, but there is a Clause in the Bill which provides that it must be done in a certain way, and it has to be announced in the monthly reports and the circulars issued by the society. Inasmuch as members must first of all decide, at various branch meetings and at general meetings, that the registration must take place, there can be nothing in the point raised by the Noble Lord about the members not knowing of this fact. With regard to advertising in the "Labour Gazette," I am glad hon. Members opposite have learned something from the discussion upstairs, because there it was argued that it was necessary to advertise in nearly the whole of the papers in the country, and now it has been brought down simply to advertising in the "Labour Gazette." In our view, this expense is entirely unnecessary. I know the expense will not be so great, but it will cause a considerable amount of delay. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] Because the "Labour Gazette" is only published every month, and if a union decides to make an application just after that journal has been issued, it cannot appear for another three weeks. From the arguments used by the Noble Lord, one would think that the "Labour Gazette" was a good medium for the workmen, but may I point out that that journal is seldom read by the rank and file of trade unions, and it is mostly read by the officials. In my opinion, this Amendment would serve only as a means of delay, and I hope the Government will not accept it.

4.0 P.M.

I think the Noble Lord was quite right when he said this is not a very important Amendment. It is the result of a good deal of discussion in Committee, and is the minimum demand put forward by the Noble Lord and those associated with him upstairs. I cannot help thinking it would be far better that this Amendment should not be inserted, and I am very hopeful the Noble Lord will come to the same conclusion when I have explained the effect of it to him. You would by this Amendment fetter the discretion of the Registrar, and I think that is undesirable. The Registrar should have the right of calling for notice by advertisement wherever he thinks it is necessary, and in any form he thinks necessary. He might be of opinion the "Labour Gazette" would not be the proper means in a particular application; and, if this Amendment were passed, we should really be limiting the right of the Registrar, which I am sure is not what the Noble Lord wants. He wants the Registrar to have the power to require advertisement if he thinks it right.

I am afraid I do not quite follow the meaning of the right hon. Gentleman. Does he suggest it might be more desirable that the Registrar should have the power to advertise in any publication? I thought that was specifically objected to by the Labour party, and that was why the Amendment was put down in this form.

The Registrar has the power now. He is the person who can determine what should happen, and, if he thinks there is not sufficient notice, he can say, "I should like notice given in a particular way." I agree with the Noble Lord that in certain cases this Amendment would operate to the advantage of the trade unions inasmuch as it limits it to one particular form of advertisement in the "Labour Gazette," but it would operate for all kinds of trade unions which come under this Bill, and I do not think that desirable. I can conceive cases in which it would be desirable to advertise in some other papers and not in the "Labour Gazette," or it may be in the "Labour Gazette" and some other paper. It is better, therefore, the Registrar's discretion should be unfettered. The Noble Lord's point is met by my telling him there is a discretion vested in the Registrar, and the only effect of passing this Amendment would be to limit it. That is why I cannot accept it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 3—(Restriction On Application Of Funds For Certain Political Purposes)

(1) The funds of a trade union shall not be applied, either directly or in conjunction with any other trade union, association, or body, or otherwise indirectly, in the furtherance of the political objects to which this Section applies (without prejudice to the furtherance of any other political objects), unless rules, to be approved, whether the union is registered or not, by the Registrar of Friendly Societies, are in force providing—

  • (a) That the funds of the union are only to be applied in the furtherance of any such political objects if the furtherance of those objects has been approved as an object of the union by a resolution for the time being in force passed on a ballot of the members of the union taken in accordance with this Act for the purpose by a majority of the members voting; and
  • (b) That any payments in the furtherance of those objects are to be made out of a separate fund (in this Act referred to as the political fund of the union), and for the exemption in accordance with this Act of any member of the union from any obligation to contribute to such a fund if he gives notice in accordance with this Act that he is unwilling to contribute; and
  • (c) That a member who is exempt from the obligation to contribute to the political fund of the union shall not be excluded from any benefits of the union, or placed in any respect either directly or indirectly under any disability or at any disadvantage as compared with other members of the union (except in relation to the control or management of the political fund) by reason of his being so exempt, and that contribution to the political fund of the union shall not be made a condition for admission to the union.
  • (2) The political objects to which this Section applies are the expenditure of money—

  • (a) on the payment of any expenses incurred either directly or indirectly by a candidate or prospective candidate for election to Parliament or to any public office, before, during, or after the election in connection with his candidature or election; or
  • (b) on the holding of any meeting or the distribution of any literature or documents in support of any such candidate or prospective candidate; or
  • (c) on the maintenance of any person who is a Member of Parliament or who holds a public office; or
  • (d) in connection with the registration of electors or the selection of a candidate for Parliament or any public office; or
  • (e) on the holding of political meetings of any kind, or on the distribution of political literature or political documents of any kind, unless the main purpose of the meetings or of the distribution of the literature or documents is the furtherance of statutory objects within the meaning of this Act.
  • The expression "public office" in this Section means the office of member of any county, county borough, district, or parish council, or board of guardians, or of any public body who have power to raise money, either directly or indirectly, by means of a rate.

    I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "rules, to be approved, whether the union is registered or not, by the Registrar of Friendly Societies, are in force, providing—

    (a) That the funds of the union are only to be applied in the furtherance of any such political objects if."

    This Amendment deals with an important point which was raised in Committee which I said I would consider, and in respect of which I pledged myself to bring up words on Report for the consideration of the House. I feel quite confident when the House appreciates the object of the Amendment we shall all agree it should be made. We impose upon the trade unions, as the Bill stands, the obligation, first of all, to pass rules, and, secondly, as a necessary consequence of one of the rules they wall have to pass, to take a ballot. It was pointed out in Committee, and I think it was a very pertinent criticism upon the Bill, that we are first of all asking the trade unions to go to the expense of calling a meeting to pass rules and then asking them to take a ballot on the question whether the union should engage in political objects. It would undoubtedly be better that they should first of all take a ballot as to whether they were in favour of extending their sphere of operations to political objects, and then, if they were of that opinion, that they should pass rules. The whole object of this Amendment therefore is to save expense by enabling them to take a ballot on the main principle and then, if they are agreed, rules will necessarily be passed afterwards. I intimated that was my view and that T would bring up words to carry it out, and I think the whole of the Committee were agreed it would be the right course to pursue.

    The argument of the right hon. Gentleman is that the horse should be put before the cart, and that it will be less expensive than putting the cart before the horse.

    Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

    I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), to leave out the word "voting" ["majority of the members voting"], and to insert instead thereof the word "union."

    This is only the alteration of a word, but I frankly admit it involves a very considerable principle. Trade unions up to a certain time considered, and apparently rightly considered, they wore entitled to take any political action they saw fit in furtherance of their general objects. We all know that position was successfully challenged in the Courts of Law, and the object of this Bill now is to allow trade unions to embark on a legalised and legitimate career of political activity. It appears to me that makes a very marked change in the position of trade unions, a change which will undoubtedly be very far-reaching. It is not a change which is unanimously agreed to by all the existing members of trade unions, and there is no reason to suppose it will be agreed to unanimously by all future members of the wage-earning classes who may earnestly desire to seek the protection of trade unionism in all matters of their daily life and to obtain the benefits to be derived from trade unions and the advantage of the power of corporate action when they think fit to take corporate action in the advancement of their rights, or in the endeavour to improve their position. It is not by any means clear that all those who would desire to join a trade union would agree to one particular form of political action or to one particular form of politics, which is really what it amounts to. It therefore seems essential we should be satisfied there is some large body of trade union opinion in favour of taking that action, particularly as we know that action has-been successfully challenged, and as we believe there is no unanimity as to engagement in politics being one of the necessary weapons of trade union armoury.

    The view of hon. Gentlemen opposite is really that in certain contingencies they should be able to take from their armoury one weapon, the weapon of a strike, and that in other conditions they should be able to use a more refined weapon of warfare and take political action. They say those two weapons are part of one policy, and that all good trade union members should be prepared to forward trade union interests by whatever method their leaders think is likely to be the most efficacious. That is what I understood to be really the position. There was a general opinion on the part of hon. Members opposite that it was really quite superfluous to have any right of choice in the matter at all. They went, in fact, so far as to move an Amendment to omit the words, "And that contribution to the political fund of the union shall not be made a condition for admission to the union," in Clause 3. They desired, even if any right of exemption was to be given to existing members, that it should certainly not extend to any future members who might join. I want to put the case perfectly clearly and perfectly fairly. If political action is only one of the weapons in the trade union armoury, one they can use just when it best suits the circumstances of the case, then there is a great deal to be said for the view that all trade unionists should conform to this exact form of political action; but it docs not seem to me the matter can possibly be left I there. There is no doubt this particular form of political action means the inclusion of a large number of Members in this House, and, if certain members of the community, not a few, but millions, are to be practically compelled as a condition of their entering a trade union which they enter for the purpose of mutual protection and advancement to support by a weekly or monthly levy a particular form of politics with which a large number of them are not in agreement, then I say we alter the whole system of representation in this House, and the question cannot be confined to the supposed interests of trade union members. We create a position in which a large number will be enabled to enter the House owing to their expenses being paid, and will be able to maintain themselves here in so far as they are not maintained by an unwilling public paying them £400 a year for their services. If that is to be the position, then I say we alter the whole system of representation in this House.

    Members are supposed to be returned by people who agree with them or by the majority in their constituencies who agree with the policy and the politics they advocate. If people are to contribute to the return of Members of Parliament with whom they are not in agreement, then I think it is very necessary we should at least ascertain there is a majority of the members of the trade unions who have taken the trouble to vote one way or the other on this all-important subject. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Walton Division of Liverpool (Mr. F. E. Smith), speaking on the Second Reading of the Bill, quoted a large number of cases in which only 5,000 out of 100,000 members had taken the trouble to vote upon some important question in the trade union. One can multiply these instances over and over again. The contention underlying this Amendment is that this goes far beyond what is the legitimate object of a trade union or what is in the interests of trade union members. On this subject, at least, the public at large and the community in general have a right to expect that if a trade union wishes to enter into this legalised field of political action they should at least ask that something over one-half of the members—in fact, a majority of the members of the union—should decide in favour of that all-important policy. Surely that is not putting the question very high. We asked in Committee that there should be some substantial majority in favour of it. We were met with no line of argument against the principle of the Amendment; we were only told it would be difficult to carry into effect. We want to put no difficulties in the way of trade unions. On the' other hand, we say that it is in the interests of trade unions, if they are going to take this action, action which undoubtedly will be strongly criticised by those who are not in entire agreement, perhaps, with them, or with their methods or with their aims and objects, that, at any rate, the community at large should have the satisfaction of knowing that at least a majority of the people immediately concerned are either in favour of taking the action in question or at least take sufficient interest in it to register their vote when a duly advertised ballot is called for. It seems to be amazing that one should have to speak for a moment on such a question as this.

    Here we have a veritable revolution in our politics. Hitherto, with the exception, I admit, of action that may have been taken under a misinterpretation of what was the actual effect of the law as it then stood, with that exception Members returned to this House have been returned to represent their individual constituencies. We know when this change is made there will be two methods of representation. There will be a legalised form of contribution which will be practically compulsory under the provisions of this Bill, and we are making essential changes by which individual members of the community will have the right, by means of a small committee, of practically controlling the contributions of an enormous membership, the vast majority of whom joined for purely trade purposes, and without any direct intention of entering into politics. It is surely an extraordinary state of affairs that we should have to argue that before taking such a departure at least one-half of the members of the trade union concerned should take enough interest in the subject to vote "Aye" or "Nay" on the question of policy. I confidently commend the Amendment to all Members who are in favour of free politics and of liberty of action on the part of the individual in whatever political action he may chose to take. I would only add this: I feel perfectly certain, whatever rules may be incorporated in the Act as laid down and prescribed as being the rules that ought to be adopted by trade unionists, whatever may be done in that direction, once this departure is taken as a matter of practice and as a practical question, it will be incumbent upon every member of a trade union, whether he agrees or not, to contribute to the political fund of his union. I am certain that, not in the long run, but very soon, that will be the state of affairs, and I give hon. Members opposite credit for knowing that. It is one of the reasons why they are ready to accept this Bill with what are, from their point of view, certain imperfections which deny them complete liberty of action, because they know, as practical men of the world, that in the working out it will prove practically obligatory on every member of a trade union to contribute to the political fund.

    The amount may be small; it is said it is so small in most cases as to be not worth while making a fuss about or to emphasise any difference of opinion. But if we leave in a provision of this kind we shall find it will become a matter of course, and we shall have a large body of people in this country who joined for one purpose, a great organisation of trade unions, and who find that in practice it is to their interest not to make themselves peculiar but to go with the accepted custom and pay whatever the contribution may be, perhaps a shilling a year, to the political fund. From the point of view of the actual money involved, it is not a matter of very great importance; it would not rob anyone. But I want to point out that this is a question of principle. Are we to establish this system which will, in future, deprive the people of their liberty and will practically impose a political test, if not in regard to political opinion, but a test which will go thus far that unless a man holds very strong principles and is willing to make himself an exception to his fellow workers he must do something which may be against his inclination, or, in some extreme cases, against his conscience? I say this is not an ordinary question at all. If it were a question whether trade unions should authorise a strike or terminate one, or take any other action in the course of everyday business, it might be held that it did not matter much whether many or few chose to vote; that would be the business of the members of the trade union. But I say that the community at large have an interest in this question; they have a right to know if a majority of the trade union members are either in favour or against this new departure, and that they take a sufficient amount of interest in it to fill up their ballot papers. That is all we ask for by this Amendment, and it is with the utmost confidence, from that point of view, that I put this matter before the House.

    I beg to second the Amendment.

    I am a strong believer in organisation; I am a strong supporter of trade unions. Trade unions in the past—in the days when they had scant experience and sometimes inefficient officials to run their business on good, sound, business lines—met with great opposition. But they are a necessity, not only for workmen, but for the proper working of business. Therefore, I want to see workmen join trade unions, and it is for that reason that I second this Amendment to-day. Men who have common interests, who work together in trade, join their trade union, and you are bound to find among such men Conservatives, Radicals, Socialists, and even men who have no politics at all, men who, in the ordinary administration of their union, are willing to leave the work to their political leaders or to those who take an active part in the organisation. But when it conies to getting power from the State, surely the State ought to know if the majority of the men of these unions want that power to be given to them. After the power has been given by the State, then it will be a matter for the union; it will be a matter for the official responsible to the members in accordance with the rules. But it certainly must be right for the State to ask to be informed whether a majority of members, including all shades of political opinion, wish to have power given to them to enter into the political arena. It is for that reason I second the Amendment. I believe it will strengthen and not weaken trade unions.

    The speech of the hon. Member who moved this Amendment went very far in the direction of a Second Reading speech. I do not complain of that. It opened up a very large question, and I want to point out to the House that what we are really considering is the point whether or not it shall be necessary under this Bill that there shall be a majority of the members of the union in favour of extending its political objects, or whether it is sufficient to have a majority of those who take part in the ballot. I was struck by one observation of the hon. Gentleman in the course of his speech. He said "we want to put no difficulty in the way of the unions." I cannot conceive anything which would put a greater difficulty in their way than the passing of this Amendment, and I find it difficult to understand how the hon. Member can seriously suggest otherwise. It would mean taking a union with a membership of 100,000, that over 50,000 would have to declare themselves in favour of the proposal before they could take, advantage of the privileges given by this Bill.

    As the Bill stands, it is a majority of the members voting, but the hon. Gentleman by his Amendment wishes to leave out the word "voting," and insert the words "of the union." I think, therefore, I am correct in my definition of the position.

    I could understand the argument if it were to the effect that it is unsatisfactory to have a very small number of members of the trade union voting. But the proposal of the hon. Gentleman goes very much farther, and if his Amendment be carried, it would certainly spoil the benefits which the unions would be entitled to obtain under this Bill. You never get a majority of more than half the members of the union voting in favour of a proposal. Under the proposal of the hon. Gentleman there might be such a thing as legalised compulsion. But this Bill prevents compulsion; it gives a man the right of exemption; it also takes care that when there is a ballot there shall be secrecy; that there shall be the right to vote given to every single member, and a fair and reasonable opportunity of voting. That is how the Bill stands as it emerged from Committee. I submit to the House that they could not have a more satisfactory proposal in regard to the ballot, and that it really provides all that is necessary. I quite appreciate it being said that the ballot must be secret. For that purpose we have introduced words into the Bill. I can understand it being said there must be a fair opportunity given to every man to vote. We have given that.

    The hon. Gentleman was not a member of the Committee, and does not understand why those words were inserted. I will tell him in one moment. All these matters, the right to vote, fair and reasonable opportunity to vote, and the secrecy of the ballot are fully provided for. The only reason for introducing the words referred to by the hon. Member was that it was pointed out that in the Sailors' and Firemen's Union the men were not always able to vote. I submit that we have done all that we ought to have done when we have given a man all these opportunities. If he does not choose to avail himself of the right given to him by the ballot, surely he has no right to complain. He is not even penalised when we have done that. We do not say that if he does not choose to vote he shall lose his rights, but we say that if he does not choose to take part in the ballot he must let the majority decide it. After the majority has decided it, then it is still open to a member of the union, who objects to paying, to claim exemption. Then he does not have to pay into the political funds. I ask the House not to accept this Amendment, and I submit that, having regard to what has happened in Committee and to the framework of the Bill as it has emerged from Committee, there is no need for any such Amendment as this, and that the only effect of the Amendment must be to cripple and paralyse the trade unions in their activities. I do not think that that is the hon. Gentleman's desire. He disclaimed any such wish, and I accept his statement. It amounts to this: If you have a ballot taken of the members of the union who, I will assume, are in greater part indifferent—that is an assumption against the views of those who represent trade unions—assuming that the majority do not care one way or the other, if that is the case, why should not the matter be decided by the majority? It in no way imposes upon them the obligation to pay a penny, but merely says that those who do care to vote may vote for or against it, and can by the ballot come to the conclusion, by a majority of those voting, that there shall be this activity in the particular trade union. If that is to take place, I submit there is no ground for any of the fears which the hon. Member has put forward. He seemed at one time to be travelling very far indeed, and suggested what would happen in this House, as if it mattered in the slightest degree to the House except, of course, as to the powers the House confers on a trade union by its legislation. I think it is an important Amendment. If it is passed it will destroy the value of the Bill to members of trade unions, and I hope the hon. Member will not persist in it.

    I cannot agree with the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, and I cannot see that the difficulties he describes will be so great as he would lead us to believe. In ordinary elections we have something like 95 per cent, voting upon the issues, and if members of trade unions are genuine in their desire for political action, surely they would take the trouble of registering their votes in the ballot. I will not go into the details of how few have voted in the past on this particular question. I would point out that if two unions wish to amalagamate they have to obtain a two-third's majority in order to secure amalgamation. If they are able to get a two-third's majority in order to do that, as they have done for years past, it is not asking too much that half the members of a union should vote on the question whether or not they wish to pursue political objects. A large number of these men join their union not for political, but for industrial purposes. They are practically forced to join their union in many trades or else have no living whatever. Therefore I think it is necessary that they should have the additional safeguard provided by this Amendment. It is one of the vital principles of the Bill that the question of political representation should be thoroughly gone into by the unions before they adopt it. It is a good thing for the members of the unions themselves that they should be forced to take some intelligent interest in political questions. If they think it really does not matter and they are perfectly content to allow perhaps 5 per cent, of the union to vote, it is a very bad thing indeed, and I think that the members of a union had far better vote in larger numbers in order that they should secure the representation they wish. As we have said on many occasions, we have no wish whatever to delay this Bill in any way, but we do wish to secure every possible protection for the minority who are forced to be members of a union. For these reasons, among others, and because this is one of the Amendments I regard as most important, I sincerely hope it will be carried.

    I think the Attorney-General was much more generous to the hon. Member (Mr. Peto) than he deserved, when he said that he thought the hon. Member sincerely did not wish to injure the unions in their political activities. I have not the slightest hesitation in declaring that the hon. Member intends, if possible, to prevent trade unions exercising political activities.

    On a point of Order, Sir. Is the hon. Member entitled to impute motives to hon. Members for what they say in their speeches?

    The hon. Member is not entitled to impute motives. I do not think he is quite doing that, but is judging the Amendment by its effect.

    I hope I have not trespassed upon the well established traditions of the House by imputing motives, but I do resent, and very strongly resent, the insulting language that is being used, and the offensive reference that is invariably made to the salary of £400 a year in every kind of speech that the hon. Member makes, and other hon. Members make, who engage in these attacks upon ourselves as representing trade unions.

    It is not our fault that we have not wealthy parents, and that we are unable to depend upon the resources of the family rather than upon our own resources.

    On a point of Order. The hon. Member began by imputing insincerity to my hon. Friend. He is now going on to discuss the payment of Members. I submit that both are irregular.

    I certainly deprecate discussion on the payment of Members. It is true the subject was not very sufficiently discussed when it was brought in, but that is no reason for discussing it on every possible occasion now. Perhaps the hon. Member will drop that topic.

    I apologise to Mr. Speaker and to the House, and I hope that other hon. Members who take part in this discussion will try to realise that there is a feeling that it is not quite fairly playing the game with us to make such references to the £400 a year. Turning to the Amendment, if the hon. Member who moved it had not been a member of the Grand Committee I should have been disposed to think that he had not read the Bill, but inasmuch as he was a member of the Grand Committee, and took a considerable part and much of our time there in speaking upon Amendments and moving them, he really must know that this Bill does not give us power to compel any man, against his will, to pay the Parliamentary levy or contribute toward the maintenance of a Member of this House. As a matter of fact, that is my great complaint against the Bill. I think we ought to have the power, but inasmuch as we are not given the power, we are entitled to ask hon. Members not to declare publicly that we have in this Bill an instrument by which men, whether they like it or not, will be compelled to contribute for political purposes.

    What I said was that whatever the Bill might say, I appealed to hon. Members opposite whether, as practical men, they did not know that it would become the rule that all members of trade unions would, as a matter of fact, in future contribute to this political fund.

    I can only say that I have no confidence that the Bill will enable us to do that. If I had, I should welcome the Bill much more enthusiastically than I do. The Amendment is intended to cripple, if possible, trade unions from taking part in political activities. The Bill as at present constructed gives first the non-political man the power to vote down the project. When the ballot is called he may, if he likes, take part in it, and endeavour to prevent his union taking part in political activities altogether. But if he fails in his effort to prevent the union taking part in political activities, then the Bill gives him the protection of allowing him to contract out or to be exempted. One would have thought that every principle of equity was met in such a proposal. First, the regulations under the Bill create the opportu- nity for every man to cast his vote. Secondly, having cast his vote, although doing so against the project, if the majority of the Members voting decide for political activities, then there is a further protection to the man who is not in favour of political activities—he may contract himself out. The hon. Member now comes along with a further Amendment, which says that it must be a majority, not of the men voting, but of the union that is to determine whether that particular society shall or shall not engage in political activities. The hon. Member is a great protagonist of individual liberty. By what right does he say that we must compel every man to take part in voting? We do not want that liberty. We say that in a free country like this the question whether a man will cast a vote or not is a matter for him to decide, but if he refuses to exercise his right as a member of the community to cast his vote, assuredly that ought not to be used as a reason for preventing other people who want to engage in political activities from partaking of that opportunity. I do not want to put it offensively. A Noble Lord earlier this afternoon interposed an interjection that I am never very ready to accept anything that he proposes. I wish hon. Members would give us a chance to accept something worth having. It is because all their proposals are intended to weaken the power of the unions for political representation that, against our wish, we are placed in opposition to them, and it is because we think that upon no critical or fair argument or fair treatment ought this Amendment to be accepted that we welcome the declaration of the Attorney-General that the Government do not see their way to accept this. Why are trade unions always to be treated, and why are the members of trade unions always to be treated as if they were not entitled to the same recognition as other people? In Parliamentary Elections you would not declare an Election void because the majority of the people entitled to vote had not taken part in it. After all, all that we ask is the same principle as is in operation in connection with the public life of this nation, and neither hon. Members opposite nor anyone else ought to ask us to take anything less.

    The hon. Member is so frank upon this subject that he almost disarms criticism. He repeatedly made it clear in Committee, and he has made it perfectly explicit to-day, that if he had his way the position of the union and the workers would be that every man should be compelled to join a union, and having joined a union should be compelled to contribute to political funds whether he approved or disapproved of the manner in which they were expended.

    In other words, that the rights of the minority should be callously ignored. The position is perfectly frank, and it would be a useful thing that the workers of the country who are invited to become members of unions should appreciate that that is the measure of liberty which, in the opinion of one of the leaders, should be attributed to them. [HON. MEMBERS: "We have never disguised it."] Do I understand, then, that there is not a Member below the Gangway opposite who does not think that the workers of the country should be compelled to join the unions, and, having joined the unions, should be compelled to contribute money to political purposes, independent of their approval or disapproval? Is that assented to by the whole of the Labour party in this House? I hear no word of dissent, so I assume it is so. I am quite sure that hon. Members, who are in full force to-day, would have the honesty and the courage to get up and say so if they dissented from the statement which their interruption invited me to make. That being so, it is good that the workers of this country should know that not merely the hon. Member (Mr. Brace), but the whole of the Labour party in the House, think that they should be forced into the unions, and that, having been forced into them, they should be forced to contribute money for political purposes. I am quite certain some of the workers of the country would be surprised to know that the whole of the Labour party in the House of Commons takes that view. The hon. Member suggests that we want to force men to vote. I assure him he is mistaken. We want them to be at liberty to vote whether they want it or not. It is the hon. Member who wants to bring pressure upon the workers of the country. We want the workers of the country to have the same freedom that the greatest individualist would claim for himself. It is because we are in favour of the freedom of the worker that this Amendment has been proposed. It is because the hon. Member is opposed to the freedom of the workers that he has expressed the views with which he has favoured the House.

    As regards the observations of the Attorney-General, he made us the concession that he did not believe we desired to cripple the unions. It is perfectly right. We owe the right hon. Gentleman our thanks for attributing to us somewhat fairer motives than have recently been attributed by certain less distinguished Members of the party opposite. But while he is quite right in saying we do not want to cripple the activity of the unions this Amendment is not designed to that end. We are dealing here, not with the primary objects of trade unions, but with secondary and subsidiary objects. The primary object of trade unions is to improve the industrial position in this country in relation to wages and conditions of employment. The object which we are now discussing—the political object—is subsidiary and does not form part of the original trade union movement. It is just because it did not do so that the necessity for the introduction of this Bill has arisen. It is because of the real objection of trade unions being industrial, that the Osborne Judgment was declared. Things have marched fast since then, I agree, and the conditions are different now, and it is probably true, at any rate as regards the operations of individual trade unions, that they have done so much that there is little for them to do to-day in the matter of pure industrial trade unionism.

    It is developing in two directions—a national, and an international movement—that is one phase, and the other is the political phase. The political phase has been in existence for many years. When you are taking a ballot to ascertain whether or not a trade union shall embark upon political purposes, you are in fact asking the members of the union whether they are going to add to their primary purposes secondary and subsidiary objects, and that is why we think the members of the unions should not be entitled to embark upon these secondary and comparatively subsidiary purposes unless it is the real opinion of the union that it is desirable to do so. I do not understand the observations of the Attorney-General. He says if the majority are indifferent, why should not the minority decide for them? Is not the fairer inference from inactivity that they care so little about it that they do not trouble to attend or to vote, and if that is the fair interpretation, why should the minority who are desirous of the acquisition of political purposes to impose the right to exercise those powers upon the majority who are too indifferent to claim it? It appears to me that this is neither logical nor sound. These things ought to be pointed out. It is not the majority of the union holding Radical or Socialist or Conservative views, or no views at all. All that the Amendment asks is that there should be 50 per cent, of the people in the union of any or no political colour, all added together, who are sufficiently interested to vote that the union shall embark upon political purposes without regard to what those political purposes may be, and it seems to me a most moderate demand having regard to the step that is being taken, and to the fact that the step is a novelty from the point of view of a union which has not indulged in political purposes before.

    The Standing Committee which considered this Bill was careful, when it was considering a similar question of majorities and safeguards for minorities under the Shops Bill—and the House adopted the view of the Committee when the Bill came back—to insert not merely a percentage of voters but a percentage upon the percentage of voters, to make sure that the Bill should not be brought into operation unless there was a real demand for it. You have under the Shops Act to have a percentage of those entitled to vote and then you must have a percentage of those voting, and it is only if you get the prescribed percentage of those voting and of those entitled to vote that you are able to bring the Act into operation. Now, when you come to this Bill, no sort of assurance is deemed desirable by the Government or by hon. Members below the Gangway that there is any real demand in any particular union for the enlarging of the area of its activities. No one has ever heard of a Parliamentary election where there was not a far bigger percentage than 50 per cent, voting. If so, what does it mean if you get less than 50 per cent., and what does the Attorney-General mean by saying you will destroy the Bill if you insist on it? It means that the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Members below the Gangway do not believe that they could evoke in the general circles of the unions even a half of the active interest which the general population of this country entitled to consider political matters does take. I see no reason why, if politics are to be embarked upon, something like a true reflex of opinion should not be ascer- tained, and I see no reason why politics should be embarked upon unless there is a real demand, within the limits of any particular union, that that step should be taken.

    5.0 P.M.

    I am not in favour of the restricted conditions imposed by this Clause upon the freedom of action of trade unions. I have always regarded trade unions as being entitled to as much freedom of action, no matter what their policy or action might be, so long as it was within the confines of the law, as any other association. I entirely differ from the hon. and learned Gentleman when he suggested that political objects were not, and historically had not been, the primary objects of trade unions. If he had studied the history very carefully of the rise of trade unions in this country, he would have found that one of the earliest enterprises upon which they embarked in the distant' forties, and even going beyond that period to wards the end of the eighteenth century, was to obtain Parliamentary representation. It is wholly a misconception to believe that the idea of Parliamentary representation is a modern invention on their part. If the hon. Member who moved this Amendment reflects that all political, and I think nearly all commercial institutions in this country are governed by the principle of the majority of those voting, and that in this House itself it is not a majority of the Members of the House, but a majority of the persons who take part in the vote, who decide great questions of policy, international as well as national—

    Forty out of 670. Only the other day we saw hon. Members opposite gladly availing themselves of that principle of voting in this House by attempting by a snap Division to upset the Government against the will of the majority.

    But we are governed here by the principle laid down by the wisdom of our ancestors, and, indeed, so much was the justice of that principle recognised a short time ago that we abolished proxies in the other place. As the Noble Lord well knows, we had a very anomalous and anachronistic system of voting by proxy in the other House, and people who never attended debates, and who took no part in politics were enabled by proxy to vote on questions which came before the other House. There is, therefore, nothing in principle against deciding by a majority of those voting. Look at it from the point of view of detail. My hon. Friend has pointed out how an artificial majority might be obtained against a proposition that a trade union might embark in politics. Take another great practical difficulty. It may interest the Attorney-General to be informed that I talked to one of his constituents, I believe a supporter, who told me that on a very important question, namely, whether the Borough of Reading should incur large expenditure involving, with the approbation of the Local Government Board, the negotiation of a heavy loan, and involving perhaps an increase of twopence or twopence-halfpenny in the rates, the ratepayers of that municipality were invited to declare their opinion on the matter which had been under discussion for two years, and was in everybody's thoughts, and yet only 20 per cent, of those competent to vote for that proposition among the burgesses and ratepayers voted upon the question. I believe the result was in favour of the proposal for incurring this heavy additional expenditure for great public improvements. That is a clear case. To assume for one moment that the 20 per cent, did not represent the feeling of the ratepayers would be wrong. Undoubtedly, if there had been a strong feeling against making these improvements and obtaining the loan, the ratepayers would have voted against the proposal.

    Let us pursue it a little further. If the miners of Durham were invited to vote I do not think there would be any difficulty in getting an actual majority—I do not say which way—one way or the other, because it is a homogeneous trade. The people are all living together, but that is not true of many trades. The members of these trade unions are scattered all over the country. Unhappily, the working population of this country are largely migratory in character. Men engaged in the building trades and other trades are here to-day and away to-morrow, and there would be great difficulty in getting the absolute majority which would be required. But where is the harm? You have hedged this Bill most unreasonably, I think, with restrictions. I believe in the absolute free will of the majority of the people. I have never regarded it as in law ultra vires for a trade union to embark in politics, but the Osborne Judgment has prevented that view being taken, and, therefore, I, as a lawyer, accept the proposition Where is the harm if a man is against a union embarking on what are termed in the Bill political objects? He is not to be damnified if they do engage in political objects. He is taken care of in this Bill. If that man says, "I shall not subscribe for that purpose," he is not to suffer in his status as a member of the union, and he has not to contribute a penny towards the political objects which the union has in view. I think this Amendment, with all due respect, is futile. I think it would cause a considerable amount of embarrassment and difficulty to many trade unions, and would be most unjust. Therefore I shall vote against it.

    It is rather difficult for anyone who has not been present at the Debates in the Grand Committee to be perfectly certain of his ground, especially as you may say something in this House which strikes some vein of passion which has been awakened in the Grand Committee of which you were totally unaware. Dr. Johnson said it is indiscreet for a sober man to enter the company and take part in the conversation of those who are drunk. It does seem that some such debate must have taken place in the Grand Committee when this question has so much excited the usually courteous Member for South Glamorgan (Mr. Brace). I have listened most carefully to this Debate with the object of informing myself on what really is the crux of it. I confess not only as a lawyer, but as a man who has lived among his fellows, that there seems to be nothing more reasonable than that when a great change is suggested to a body which has been acting together the change should be approved by a majority of the members when it takes place. As has been pointed out by my hon. Friend, that principle is already on the Statute Book with respect to trade unions themselves. They require a two-thirds majority for amalgamation, and ordinarily speaking I think any man of common sense and ordinary views would say that it was only natural and proper that before a fresh adventure is taken a bare majority should vote for the change. It is quite true that, as the Attorney-General pointed out, in the very clear speech he made at the beginning, that after this ballot has been taken the dissenters from the view have machinery prescribed by the Bill by which—though not to protest—to absolve themselves from all expense which is the result of that decision. That is a perfectly fair observation, but the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not tell us, nor did the hon. Member for South Glamorgan tell us, what is the reason for saying that if this Amendment was accepted it would absolutely defeat the whole object of the Bill. In other words, both of them affirm, but neither of them gave any reason for stating, that if the Amendment was inserted not a single trade union would be able to embark on political activities.

    Inmost cases. They say it would practically wreck the Bill in the vast majority of cases. I must do the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Atherley-Jones), who is a lawyer, the credit of having given a really substantial reason which was not given by his predecessors in the Debate, and which I think is certainly worthy of the consideration of the House. If those who speak for trade unions were to assure me that it is as a matter of fact in very many cases impossible to get at the members, and that this is the best you can do in the way of establishing that the majority are in favour of a certain course, I should hesitate which way I should cast my vote. But we have had no such authoritative pronouncement on the question.

    Certainly that is the reason why we oppose this Amendment so strongly. It is exceedingly difficult in most of the unions to get a majority to vote, and that for the very reason given by the hon. and learned Member for North-West Durham (Mr. Atherley-Jones).

    Speaking for myself, I think that is really the point of this case. I think those who ask us not to vote for the Amendment ought to bring forward evidence to show that they are doing all that reasonably can be done. Certainly to anyone like myself it does appear a strange paradox that, while there is a desire in many quarters that trade unions should be allowed to engage in political activities, such great apathy should be shown by those who constitute the majority. I confess I have some doubt in the matter, but perhaps we might have some further light in the course of the Debate.

    Let me assure the right hon. Gentleman that as a simple matter of fact we never do get a majority of members of any union to vote on anything, not even on strikes. Sometimes in extreme cases, where a vote is taken locally, you may get a majority, but taking unions of a national character whose members are spread from one end of the country to the other, in such cases you never do, and never can, get an actual majority of the members to vote on anything. The most extreme case which I have in mind was on one occasion when a very large percentage, at least 40 or 50 per cent., of the engineers were involved in a dispute, and when, after a lock-out of some six months, the question of settling that dispute one way or the other came up to be decided, and even then we did not get more than about 37 per cent, of the union to vote. And there is a good reason. The railway men will deal with their own case. Theirs is a fairly obvious case—Sunday work and things of that kind. But take the engineers. We vote only in the branches. Those branches meet about once a fortnight. A man joins a branch in a particular place, and does not care about leaving it. Take my own case. I have been a member of a branch of engineers in Chelsea for thirty years. I have never lived in Chelsea during the whole of that time. I do not go more than three or four times a year to my branch. Consequently it seems that even in normal conditions the average member does not go to a branch except on some extreme occasion, but sends his contribution either through the agency of his wife or one of his children. This applies to all the others as well as to the engineers. But here is something which applies specially to engineers. We have between 9,000 and 10,000 of our members at sea. Those men pay their contributions. They are included in the total roll of members, yet not one in twenty of them ever has a chance of voting at all on anything. Consequently you may take off these nine or ten thousand men.

    Another thing is that members are not always at home. Trade union membership is largely made up of the best of the working people, the most skilful of the mechanics of the country in various trades. Therefore these men are being constantly sent out by the various firms for which they work. It is impossible to give the figures in regard to that as in regard to the sea-going men. One never khows. But it is likely that there is even a larger number of engineers working out at any particular time putting up machinery in Germany, France and all over the world, so that you may knock off no less than another ten thousand or may be up to twenty thousand for them. Then another point is that very often we have to work overtime, not because we like it but because of the pressure of trade. Probably, if the right hon. Gentleman will take a bird's-eye view of the trade and industry of the country at present, he would find that owing to the pressure of the trade boom a very large number of the rank and file of trade unionists are working overtime, and therefore are not in a position to get to their branches. If the right hon. Gentleman only knew the trade union movement as we do, he would see from the facts we have given that when it comes down to actual members who have a chance of voting, you do not get a majority of voters in the average trade union. Taking the builders and engineers, who largely work out or away, and the people at sea, and take the railway men doing long journeys, some working night work one week and day work the next, taking all the unions together, probably he would find that not a majority has a chance of voting, let alone getting a majority in favour of any particular object. I think that I have answered the right hon. Gentleman, and I do not need to say anything more than this, that if you get a majority of those voting on any particular proposition, you may fairly take that majority as representing a majority of the trade union.

    This question was fully discussed in Committee upstairs and discussed in all its aspects. As a member of the Committee I listened very attentively to the arguments adduced by the learned Attorney-General and by many members of the Labour party. I must own that while I felt that some Amendment of this Clause was necessary I could not then and cannot now bring myself to accept the Amendment before the House to the effect that at least half of the total number of members of the union must vote in favour of any particular proposition in order that that proposition may be carried. The arguments adduced by the hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes) seemed to me to be conclusive in showing that undoubtedly that is too large a proportion of the total number of members of the union to be expected to vote even on so important a matter as the extension of the powers of the union to political objects. On the other hand, I certainly would have been glad if some Amendment had been brought forward similar to the Amendments that were proposed in Committee, that a certain number of the members of the union should vote on the matter in order that the opinion of the majority should prevail. In all other matters, certainly commercial and industrial, even in this House, a quorum is required to vote in order that the opinion of the majority should prevail, and I should have been glad if an Amendment of that kind had been put down, and if the Members of the Labour party would have agreed to it. But no such Amendment is on the Paper, and I am not certain whether the Labour party would assent to any such Amendment if it were put down. I very much doubt whether they would. I should be very sorry if it should be thought that those Members of this House who are not in any way associated with trade unions, like myself, and who look at this question from a purely outside point of view, were doing anything to prevent the Members of the Labour party from enlarging their sphere of their activity by entering into political work. Therefore, I should be glad personally if the Mover and Seconder of this proposal would be willing to withdraw. Whether they will do so or not I cannot say, but if they do not, I shall not be able to vote in favour of the Amendment.

    As one who is not a member of a trade union, but followed very closely the Debate, I may say a few words on this important question. These arguments were advanced at great length again and again before the Committee, and I was particularly struck by this fact, that very often when we were unable to form even the very small quorum demanded for a Committee, yet it was left to our vote to decide the question, which had its influence on the whole of the population of this country. I wondered how any hon. Gentleman who supports this Amendment could seriously propose in Committee that about nine Members should definitely pass into law something which would prevent the majority of those voting in trade unions from having their way in their own union. To-day I have listened to the various arguments, and that same impression was again and again borne in on my mind. I listened attentively to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Thanet (Mr. Norman Craig), who after delivering his brief left the House without waiting for an answer. He said, that the trade unions of this country had been continually enlarging their sphere of activity, that they had broken with their primary objects and become political. It is very necessary for them to become political. We have heard of those who are born to greatness, those who achieve greatness, and those who have greatness thrust upon them. Trade unions, without seeking it, have had politics absolutely thrust upon them, because we in this House undertake the management of their concerns, possibly—because there is no check whatever upon us—in dense ignorance of the administration of the law behind them, of their objects, of their mode of work, but we presume—no doubt rightly so—to interfere even in the smallest details of their organisation; yet, on the other hand, we hold up the reproach to them that they are becoming political. For my part, I hope that they will not only develop in this way, but that they will develop on the international side and develop in the sense of cohesion among trade unions.

    Those observations hardly seem to be relevant to the Amendment which we are now discussing.

    I bow to your ruling, but I was simply following the objections raised by the hon. and learned Member for the Isle of Thanet. The main point, however; is this: The hon. and learned Member for Hanover Square said that if one good reason was put forward he would be inclined favourably to consider the position of trade unions, and give his opinion against this Amendment. I ask him now, after having heard the hon. Member for Blackfriars, whether he is still prepared to vote for this Amendment, because Members of this House very often form an opinion, not upon the reasons for it, but because they belong to one side or the other? Personally, whether those arguments so forcibly put forward from his intimate knowledge by the hon. Member for Blackfriars held good or not, I would still be opposed to this Amendment. I quite recognise that those arguments in themselves are unanswerable, but suppose the members of a trade union have ample opportunity for voting on any matter put before them, and that, with ample time for deliberation, they still, either through carelessness or indifference, or some other cause, refrain from voting, why should their abstention of ignorance prevail against those who have taken an active part in the organisation and endeavoured, by their activity, to further its ends? I dare say the strongest reason even for their abstention, would not be indifference or ignorance, but because they had by a careful mode of election, placed in a position of power those who are best fitted to govern the trade unions and guide those who in a great majority of cases are content to leave the decision of matters in their hands. I feel that is a perfectly sound principle, and I think it is quite possible to have conciliation of democracy on a broad basis with an aristocracy. I am delighted to see before me what I may call the aristocrats of the Labour party, using the word aristocrats in the true sense of the word—I mean aristocrats not through privilege or accident, but by hard work and by approbation of their fellows in the task put before them. On all grounds I think it is simply bringing it to a reductio ad absurdum, if we in this Parliament, being only a very small proportion at the present time of Parliament itself, and Parliament being only a very small proportion of the nation, were to decide that, having the right of determining legislation by the majority of our own vote, that those votes, when we bring them to bear on the question of developing trade unions, should say that their leaders and those who have taken an active interest in their work, should be unable to carry out their own will.

    I wish to deal with a point raised by my right hon. and learned Friend, and to which the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division replied. Before dealing with that point, I wish to say, with regard to the whole attitude of those who sit on this side of the House on this and similar Amendments, that I take it to mean that we consider the safeguards proposed by us for insertion in this Bill are necessary if the minority are to be protected. We have endeavoured to get those safeguards accepted, but they have been invariably refused. Our position is perfectly intelligible. We accept the principle of the Bill fully, but we do not accept the way in which the Bill is to be carried out, and all the responsibility for that must rest on the shoulders of the Government. So far from what the hon. Member for Glamorgan said being the fact, I would point out that during this Session trade unions have been treated as the spoiled child of the Legislature, and if that be persisted in the effect will only be to injure trade unions themselves. I know the argument will be brought against me that I have not many trade unionists in my Constituency, but I submit that in many towns of the country I see a great, danger arising from the undue power given to trade unions, just as we have seen it arise from the undue power given to corporations elsewhere.

    I ask Members of the House who have not made up their minds on this Amendment to recognise that danger, and I can not think that anyone on the other side of the House will disagree with me when I say that no one can assert that the Legislature has been hard on trade unions during the last six years. I think it is not going too far to say that trade unions have been the spoiled child in regard to legislation. What we have got to recognise is that this question of Parliamentary action has not yet been settled in the trade unions themselves. If we took a canvas of every trade unionist in the country, I am not at all sure that you would not find a large majority against the proposal of the Bill. The hon. Member for Bradford, in the course of a legitimate interruption, said that trade unionists had received great benefits from political action. I differ from the hon. Gentleman, and I doubt if many trade unionists hold that point of view at all. I think a great many of them are very dissatisfied with what their Parliamentary representatives have done. The Government are asking Parliament to give the trade unionists an exceptional privilege. It was observed by an hon. Member that nothing is being done here which has not been done for commercial or political corporations, but you are really asking Parliament to do much more than that. What is the position of trade unionists upon this matter? If there were a unanimous vote, if there were any means open to us of ascertaining what the real view of individual members of trade unions is on this matter, and if trade unionists, by an overwhelming majority, sought to be allowed to take political action, then the safeguards which Parliament imposed would naturally be much less than are necessary in the case of the present Bill.

    But that fight has not yet been fought out, and the Government in refusing this Amendment are, I submit, weighting one of the clubs in the fight. As regards the point that if the Amendment were accepted it would make it impossible for any trade union to carry on political action, owing to the difficulty, for example, of getting hold of the individual members, I would submit that there is a greatly exaggerated fear in regard to that difficulty on the part of Labour Members opposite. On another stage of the Bill the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Gill) said it was impossible to get hold of individual members in order to obtain a ballot with regard to any proposed legislation of the Government. I hope the House will allow me to read an extract from a letter on the very point relating to the taking of the ballot. The letter is from a member of a trade union. [The Noble Lord read an extract to the effect that secretaries of a trade union in the Lancashire cotton trade had distributed the papers to the individual members of the unions in the mills where they worked.]

    What the Noble Lord has read is exactly what I stated. We have a different system from other trade unions, and we got at the individual members through the secretaries.

    The point here is that you have an instance in which you have got hold of the names and addresses of the individual members, and why could not that be done in every trade union?

    I absolutely deny that the general secretary has the power to get the names of the whole of the members in the mills. The only addresses we ask for are those of the secretaries in each mill, who get at the men in the mills.

    The hon. Gentleman himself shows that the union officials were able to obtain the names, and my correspondent in his last sentence said those secretaries are paid officers of the union and are in the respective mills where they distribute to every member the ballot paper or card as the case may be. The point I wish to make is that forty or fifty paid officers of the union have obtained the names of members of the union, and I assert with confidence that it is possible for a trade union through its paid officers to get hold of the name and address of every member of the union. That has been denied again and again by hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I submit that if it has been possible to get hold of these names in one instance, it should be possible in others, and, that being so, the objection to the Amendment falls to the ground. If there be machinery through paid officers to reach the individual members, then I say there is not the slightest reason why this Amendment should not be passed. If you inform every member as to the ballot which is to be taken, and if you cannot get 51 per cent, of the members to vote, then it may be fairly assumed that the desire of that union for political action cannot be very strong. I do not know whether the House is aware that the figures in an ordinary General Election show that something like 84 per cent, of the people on the average vote in a Parliamentary Election. If that be so, surely it should be possible to get 51 per cent, to vote in an election of this kind. My own impression is, and it has certainly been strengthened by what I have observed, that hon. Members opposite know perfectly well that, there is no wide desire among trade union members for political action, and, therefore, they desire that the Bill should stand in such a way as to make it possible for the minority to undertake political action. Otherwise, I cannot see, for the life of me, after listening to the Debate, what can be the objection to this Amendment. There is one other point, which is a matter showing how little interest is taken at the present time by many trade unions as to the question of political action, and the reason why the Labour party are opposing this Amendment. I have here the report of the Labour party, as well as the report of the Trade Union Congress for last year. Looking through them, I observe extraordinary discrepancies in the contributions of the different unions to that party. Some unions, with memberships totalling as many as 30,000, sent small contributions of £30 to the Labour party, while unions with a membership of perhaps seven or eight thousand sent contributions of £100. Two most important unions, the Amalgamated Society of Engineers and the Iron and Brass Founders' Union, sent no contribution at all, although they have a total membership of 100,000.

    That does not affect the matter of my argument. [Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen may laugh, but it does not affect the value of my argument. The real point is as to the discrepancies. It is not suggested that some of those societies, which, with a membership of 10,000, made a contribution of £2, or one which made a contribution of 10s., had been injuncted, although they are so keen about political action.

    I am not sure that I have the name now, but it is in this book. There may be a reason for it, and I have no doubt there is a reason; but I call the attention of my hon. Friends to this, that no argument has been brought forward to show that there is this widespread desire on the part of the members of trade unions for political action, and because there is not that desire, and because hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway opposite know that their position is insecure, and that their party is insecure, they are demanding this provision in order to make it possible for a minority of the members of trade unions to force the unions into political action. The House may refuse this Amendment and other Amendments of the kind, and I have no doubt they will do so, but all I can say is that I think the day will come when the House will very much regret that it came to that decision. I believe the only result of giving this absolutely unguarded privilege to trade unions, which I do not believe the members of those unions desire, and which I do not believe they would express themselves in favour of on a ballot, will be to do harm to the trade unions themselves and gross injustice to the community.

    The Noble Lord has taken on himself the rôle of a strong advocate of the interests of the members of trade unions. He has put forward as one of his very strong pleas that in the attitude which he and his Friends have taken up on this particular question they are particularly interested in the welfare of the members of the trade unions of this country. I am sure that the Noble Lord will not be surprised if we on these benches and those we represent in this House refuse to accept with enthusiasm or sincerity the professed friendship of the Noble Lord and his immediate Friends for the trade unions of this country. He has endeavoured to make Certain references to the financial state- ment, which I imagine he has quoted from the report of the Labour party. I want to submit to the House that the Noble Lord has demonstrated his incapacity and inability and therefore has forfeited any right to take the floor of this House and speak in the interests of the trade unions of this country. If he was informed as to the elementary facts appertaining to the constitution of the Labour party, I am certain he would not have made the mistakes he made during the course of the speech he has just delivered. During the course of that speech he ventured to say to the House that Parliament was treating the trade unionists of this country very much as a spoiled child, having before his mind the very point at issue in this Debate, which is the right of the trade unions of this country, if a majority of their members by ballot-vote decide in favour of political action, that they should be allowed to take that course. May I remind the Noble Lord that on a previous occasion when a similar discussion took place in this House the Member for Oldham (Mr. Denniss), I think in a maiden speech, made a very interesting statement which we have repeated on Labour platforms hundreds of times? The statement was to the effect that he admitted that the right of trade unionists to take part in political action had never been questioned for at least forty years, and that it was only questioned the moment the trade unionists of the country decided on independent labour lines to fight their own political battles. We had a more recent contribution when we entered on this stage of the Bill from the hon. Member who moved the first Amendment (Mr. Leslie Scott), and who said:—

    "I do not in any way wish to raise any controversy relating to that question—"
    that is, the question of political action—
    "I accept the historical facts that trade unions did, to a great extent, carry on political activities in a growing degree down to the time of the Osborne Judgment, particularly during the year that preceded the Osborne Judgment."
    When the Noble Lord suggested to the House that because of our demands in the name of the industrial toilers of this country to be allowed to exercise and to enjoy the rights that for forty years we enjoyed without molestation trade unions are being treated by Parliament as a spoiled child, then I submit he is adding insult to the intelligence of this House. The hon. and learned Member who moved this Amendment emphasised as one of his main points that political action was a subsidiary purpose of the trade union movement. Let me give another quotation from the hon. and learned Member for Liverpool (Mr. Leslie Scott) in his speech on the first Amendment, and I think it will be proof positive that that suggestion of the hon. and learned Member is hardly in harmony with the views of the hon. Member for Liverpool, who said:—
    "There is one reason which seems to me to be paramount on that question, namely, that the solution of industrial difficulties, the solution of the great question of industrial unrest which has been so much before us recently, must lie more and more as years go on in the action of Parliament."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th January, 1913, col. 1093.]
    I think that we who sit on these benches are entitled to claim that we are able to speak, not only with larger authority, but certainly with more well-informed minds as to the opinions and aspirations and desires of the industrial toilers of this country than are hon. Gentlemen opposite. I desire to repudiate, and I think the whole of my colleagues will associate themselves with me in that repudiation, the suggestion that we are asking for favours from Parliament. We are demanding as an act of elementary justice in view of the elementary fact that industrial and economic fights of the future, even on the authority of some Members opposite, are to be fought on the floor of this House, that the industrial toilers shall be allowed to enter the arena of practical politics, and in the name of the workers of this country continue to occupy their rightful place in the council of the nation.

    I am very much disposed to agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken, that this Amendment does not propose to take away any special privilege that is claimed by the leaders of the trade unions, and, furthermore, I would be prepared to concede to the hon. Member for South Glamorgan and to several other hon. Members who have spoken that if the great majority of trade unionists do not vote, and are too slack to vote on these ballots, then they have nobody to thank but themselves for any ill consequences that may arise. I am perfectly prepared to concede that to hon. Members opposite. I am also prepared to admit the strength of the consideration that was adduced by the hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes), who made by far the most powerful speech against this Amendment that we have heard on the subject. I am perfectly prepared to admit that in the case of men who are at sea or out of the country, or who are engaged in certain occupations, that it is impossible for them to record their votes in the ballot. Those difficulties could perfectly well be overcome by arrangements. They are not insuperable difficulties, and if the principle for which we are contending was agreeable to hon. Members opposite, the difficulties of men who are not able to vote by reason of living far away from their lodges would be very easily surmounted. The question I want to ask hon. Members of the Labour party is, why should it be assumed because members of trade unions do not vote at the ballots that therefore they approve of the policy which has been adopted by the leaders of the union.

    6.0 P.M.

    Why should it be assumed that silence gives consent? The hon. Member for Bolton asked me why should the opposite be assumed. I put it to him in this way, that this Bill as it emerged from the Committee stage lays it down that once this ballot has been taken, and a resolution has been carried in favour of taking political action, that every member of the union shall be obliged to contribute to the political fund unless he makes personal application for exemption. That is to say, this Bill places the onus of application on those who dissent from political contribution. Therefore, I argue that it is unreasonable that the onus of making application should be placed upon the great bulk of trade unionists by a small vote which only represents 4 or 5 per cent, of the members of the union. If the Bill was drafted differently, and the onus of application was put upon those members of the union who wanted to contribute towards the political fund, there would be a great deal in the contention of the hon. Member for Bolton that those members who did not care to vote should be assumed as endorsing the policy of the leaders of the union. But if we are to take it that all those who do not make application are in favour of the political levy, I think it is unreasonable to assume, if the vast majority of members do not vote at all, that therefore they are in favour of that course. If hon. Members opposite were willing to agree to its being necessary to secure a majority of the members of the union before political action could be taken, they would be on far stronger grounds in demanding that the onus of application for exemption should be upon those who do not wish to contribute to the political funds.

    We have been told by the hon. and learned Member for North-West Durham (Mr. Atherley-Jones), that we, in this House, have no right to interfere with the internal management of trade unions. That is a very important consideration. Neither this House nor any other has a right to prevent people from spending their own money in the way they want to, provided it is their own money. Therefore, if the hon. and learned Member for North-West Durham can prove to me that this is an unwarrantable interference with the internal management of trade unions, he will have gone a long way to prove his case. But I do not think he is able to do that in the slightest degree. In the first place, the whole of this Bill can be said to be to a certain extent an interference with the internal management of trade unions. You cannot get away from that. Therefore, the principle of State supervision, if I may put it in those terms, has been accepted by hon. Members opposite in voting for this Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] One of the fundamental principles on which the Bill is based is that the Registrar of Friendly Societies should have certain effective powers of investigation and control in regard to the internal working of the unions. How-do we justify that? Nobody has shown the justification more clearly than the hon. Member for Glamorgan who made a lucid and frank speech, as he always does, when speaking on this or any other question. He put forward the claim, which he has put forward on other occasions, that every working man shall, if possible, be forced to join a trade union, whether he wishes to or not, and he said that he himself will adopt every honourable means in his power to bring about that result.

    As long as it is the claim of trade union leaders—and I can quite appreciate that for the purposes of collective bargaining it is very advantageous to them to have as many men in the unions as possible— that they shall be able to coerce men into trade unions against their will, either by strikes, or by inducing employers like the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division (Sir A. Markham) to dismiss every non-unionist, this House must exercise some sort of supervision over the internal management of the unions. If the minority are to be forced into joining trade unions against their will, this House has a responsibility to see that their interests are not prejudiced thereby. It is for these reasons that I justify the insertion in this Bill of such a provision as we are attempting in this Amendment and the other regulations that have been imposed upon the unions by different Clauses of the Bill. The whole necessity for any interference with the internal management of trade unions arises from the fact that they claim and exercise the right of forcing men against their wishes to enter into membership with them. I wish to ask hon. Members opposite one final question. I am quite prepared to admit that there may be practical difficulties in the matter of getting members to vote at the ballot; but surely those technical difficulties do not account for the extraordinary results which have been often quoted in these Debates, such, for instance, as that of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Engineers, when, on a ballot being taken as to whether or not there should be a political levy, out of 107,000 members only 5,000 voted in favour and 2,000 against. There are other figures equally strong. No adequate explanation has been given of the disparity between the establishment of trade unions and their voting strength. Surely the fundamental reason why hon. Members opposite cannot get more men to vote in favour of a political levy is that they really have not got the support of the vast majority of trade unionists in the political policy which they advocate. If the vast bulk of trade unionists really believed in the political principles advocated by hon. Members opposite, there would not be the slightest difficulty in getting those men to vote at the ballot in favour of a political levy. After all, these men vote at Parliamentary elections. [An HON. MEMBER: "Do they?"] The hon. Member who interrupts knows perfectly well that in an industrial district at a Parliamentary election generally about 90 per cent, of the electorate poll. It is therefore obvious that the trade unionists who vote must vote to the number, roughly speaking, of about 90 per cent. How comes it, then, that in the ballots connected with the internal management of their own unions only 5 or 6 per cent, vote? Surely it is that whereas the leaders of the trade unions have the support of the vast majority of trade unionists on industrial matters—they would not be in their present positions if they had not—they have not that support on political matters.

    That, to my mind, is the reason why they have failed to get a majority of the members of the unions to vote in favour of a political levy. Hon. Members opposite know perfectly well that if they once conceded the principle that a majority of the members should be required to vote before political action could be taken, they would in fact be prevented from taking such action. I do not wish to press the matter so far that the effect would be to prevent trade unions and Socialism from being adequately represented in this House; but I say that before this Bill lays it down that every trade unionist shall be considered as willing to pay a political levy, unless he has the courage and enterprise to apply for special exemption, you ought, at any rate, to insist on some form of quorum at the ballot by which it is decided to have a political levy. The hon. and learned Member for North-West Durham said that we in this House decide questions by a simple majority. That is true. So does every other assembly. But every assembly recognises the necessity of having a quorum. What we ask for is that if trade unions are to take part in politics there should be some quorum of the electorate required to vote at the ballot. We think that that demand is a reasonable one. Not only does it not cut against the interests of the political action of trade unions, but it really places their leaders in this House on a firmer foundation and in a more authoritative position than they could possibly hope to have when they are here only by virtue of something in the nature of a snap Division.

    I was very much impressed by the speech of the hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes). I am sorry he is not in the House now, because I should have liked to ask him a question, his answer to which, no doubt, would have still further strengthened me in the view I take. I understood him to say that at a moment of great crisis in the union with which he is particularly concerned they were able to secure the attendance of only some 39 per cent, of the enrolled members of the union. We are here dealing with a practical question, and that statement of the hon. Member seems to me to have been a most practical contribution to the Debate. I do not propose to go into the merits of the general question. With much that was said by the Noble Lord (Viscount Wolmer) I agree, but it does not seem to me to be entirely relevant to the question under discussion. In my view, the majority of trade unionists do not approve of the political policy of the trade unionist party. I am confident that that is so in my own Division. None the less, seeing that according to the information given to us by hon. Members opposite, who on this point should be in the best position to describe the realities of trade union life, it is impossible to secure the attendance of 51 per cent, of the enrolled members of the unions, I think we should be doing wrong if we insisted upon the Amendment now before the House. Therefore, with very little hesitation indeed, I, like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, will have no difficulty in withholding my vote from this Amendment if it goes to a Division.

    The last two speakers, it seems to me, have both maintained a most extraordinary position: that the majority of trade unionists do not agree with the political policy of the men whom they send here to represent them. To me that is quite incredible. I do not believe it for one moment. I do not in the least think that any considerable number of persons, or an appreciable number of trade unionists, are being coerced as suggested by the speakers who have just addressed us. If it be that there is really a majority of trade unionists who disagree with the political action of their union, all I can say is that they are not entitled to much respect either from us or from hon. Gentlemen opposite. Surely they can get their way. They have perfect freedom to make such rules as would embody the policy they do believe in. The Noble Lord the Member for Newton is obsessed by the idea that men are being forced into trade unions. I have had some considerable experience of trade unions and I do not believe such a thing. There is no such forcing. There are a large number of workmen who are not in trade unions. They are free labourers, and they are perfectly at liberty to form themselves into whatever body they like. There is no compulsion upon them at all. There may be individual places—Newton may be one— where almost the entire population of working men are in the unions, and where the few exceptions may feel a little uncomfortable. It was so I remember in the days of the Land League in Ireland—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."]—where the whole of the tenants—

    The hon. Gentleman is wandering rather far from the Amendment, which has now been narrowed down to a very small question.

    rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

    Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.

    Question, "That the word 'voting' stand part of the Bill," put accordingly, and agreed to.

    I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), at the end of paragraph (a) to add the words

    "where such a resolution is in force, unless rules to be approved, whether the union is registered or not, by the Registrar of Friendly Societies, are in force providing"—

    I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Attorney-General's proposed Amendment, to leave out the words, "whether the union is registered or not."

    This Amendment I think will probably command the assent of the House. I think it is in accordance with the spirit and the intention of the Bill as drawn. The point is this: by Clause 1 of the Bill the unions are entitled to carry on any lawful object. Under Clause 2 trade unions are defined as unions which have for their principal objects statutory objects under their constitution, within the meaning of Clause 1, Sub-section (2). The latter part of Clause 2, Sub-sections (2), (3). (4), and (5) deals with the registration of unions, or as an alternative to registration the granting to a trade union which is not registered and which docs not wish to be registered, a certificate that it is a trade union under this Act. I apprehend that in the Act which confers upon trade union the new right—I mean new from the point of view of the law—of carrying on political business, that the provisions in Clause 2 as to registration or certificates are two alternative modes of giving effective publicity to a trade union which the Bill intends shall be the conditions, principally, of the Bill to carry on political business. I apprehend that at the present day for all practical purposes there is no trade union which is not registered or which would not have a certificate under this Act if not registered, which at the same time is not going to carry on political business. All great unions will be registered, or at any rate they will have a certificate under this Act. It is simply in order to have it clear in the Act that this is the intention of the Act that I move the omission of these words. They will be followed as a matter of necessary consequence by adding at the end of Clause 3, Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), a further "unless" Clause—that is, that the trade union funds shall not be applied to political objects "unless" there has been a resolution, "unless" there are rules, and then the further words, "unless the union is registered or has a certificate in accordance with the provisions of this Act." I ask the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill if this view of the Bill is consonant with the intention of the Government. Secondly, I ask whether he agrees with me as a mere matter of law—I think it is obviously a matter of law—that without this alternative I am proposing the Bill would not carry out the intention which I apprehend is the intention of the Government, and at any rate which I suggest is the right course to take. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would answer me before I say anything on the merits of the question. If he agrees with my view, then it will be unnecessary to say anything on the merits. My question is whether it is the intention of the framers of the Bill that the right to carry on political business should attach to unions only if they are either registered or in possession of a certificate?

    It is not the intention, then? I understand that the right hon. Gentleman says that it is not the intention of the Government to attach these conditions to the right to carry on political business. I am rather surprised at the answer, because I should have thought it manifestly right that where political powers of this kind are being conferred, which are a very great practical power, that there some degree of publicity should be required of the bodies to which the powers are to be entrusted. It is not much publicity. It is simply merely for the registration or the granting of a certificate by the Registrar that the body is a trade union. That is all the publicity necessary. The public may then know what the public body is that has these political powers. I submit that the proposal is one which is self-evident, that the course I propose should be adopted by the House, and that we should ask that the unions which are to receive these powers should be known to the public by registration or by a certificate.

    With regard to the provisions in the Bill as to the registration of unions, of course, as a matter of fact, it is optional upon trade unions under present circumstances. If a trade union does register, it is under the jurisdiction of the Registrar of Friendly Societies. In order that the Registrar should have further powers in regard to it we have made a certain provision in Clause 2. Another object in view is to prevent litigation as to whether or not the combination is a trade union within the meaning of the Bill. In order that there should be no doubt about that, and to prevent expensive and very often protracted litigation, we say that an application may be made for a certificate. That application may be made by either a registered society or an unregistered society. It is not necessary to register under the Act in order to get a certificate. Once the certificate has been granted, it is conclusive for all purposes. Any trade union that has got this certificate, so long as it holds it, can never have the question raised against it that it is not a trade union within the meaning of this Act. That is the whole point.

    At the same time, we have no intention of saying that no combination which otherwise conforms to the definition of a trade union in this Bill shall be entitled to carry on unless it either registers or gets a certificate. If it does not choose to register and remains an unregistered society no objection would be taken to that—my hon. Friend does not take objection. What he says is, then it must apply for a certificate. I think what he omits to notice is that the object in granting a certificate is to avoid litigation. It is not meant to do any more. All that it means is that that combination would not have to prove, if it goes into Court, that it is a trade union within the meaning of the Act. There is a definition of a trade union which begins at the first part of Clause 2. It is quite clear, and really incorporates the definitions which are already in existence under the Trade Union Acts of 1871 and 1906. It means "any combination whether temporary or permanent, the principal objects of which are under its constitution statutory objects." That is the definition of a trade union. Any combination which conforms to these conditions is a trade union, whether it chooses to register or whether it chooses to remain unregistered, or apply for a certificate or not. It is entirely a matter which is optional upon the trade union. We do not intend—I do not think it would be right—to insist either upon a trade union registering or obtaining a certificate. Though I quite appreciate the reason of my hon. Friend opposite in calling attention to the matter, I cannot accept the Amendment, because I think it would be going a great deal further than any intention in the Bill, and would necessitate further alterations.

    Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment to the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.

    I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph (b), to leave out the words, "from any obligation to," and to insert instead thereof the word "may."

    My Amendment does not entirely show its importance upon the face of it, but the the effect of it is to put the onus and obligation to the lodge secretary of the union on those members of the union who desire to contribute to the political funds instead of putting it, as the Bill does, on those members of the union who do not desire to contribute to the political fund. I should have thought after the arguments we heard in Committee upstairs, that it would be quite evident to the House that the course I am now recommending is a reasonable and proper one. It seems to me absurd to say that because a man makes no application to his union officials that therefore he is to be assumed to be in favour of contributing his money towards the support of the Labour party in the House of Commons. This Amendment is indeed a very important one, and is thoroughly consistent with the whole principle upon which the Bill is founded. That principle is, that whereas the unions should be allowed to take part in politics, there shall be no sort of pressure put upon any member of the union who disagrees with the policy of the Labour party to contribute his money towards the funds of that party, and with that object the Bill has made careful provision for the secrecy of the ballot, and for safeguarding, as the Government are always pointing out, of the rights of the minority. But if the ballot is to be secret it must be so in fact as well as in name, and what the Govern- ment are asking us to do in leaving the Bill as it is drafted at the present moment, is this: They say that if a ballot is taken it ought to be secret, so that it shall not be known how any of the men vote, so that any man may vote against a political levy without its being known; and in the next paragraph they say that if a man disapproves of a political levy and wishes to avail himself of the provisions of the Bill, he has to send up his name to the lodge secretary or the officials of the union for exemption. That is forcing him at once to show which way he voted in the ballot which is supposed to be secret, therefore this provision entirely invalidates the safeguard and the guarantee of secrecy which the Government have set out in the fourth Clause.

    My first reason for moving this Amendment is, that the guarantees of secrecy are not really operative if a man who did not wish to contribute to the funds of the Labour party has got to make application for exemption; and in support of that I would like to remind the House of what happened to Mr. Osborne and those men who have objected to pay the Parliamentary levy in their trade unions, and I must also remind the House of the claims put forward from the benches opposite this afternoon, in order that the House may see exactly the importance of the Amendment I am now proposing. Hon. Members opposite know perfectly well that Mr. Osborne, who objected to pay the levy of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants, was a lifelong member of his union; he was secretary to his lodge, and was a typical representative of trade unionism. Mr. Osborne objected to pay this levy; he did exactly what the Attorney-General is now inviting those who think like him in trade unions to do when the Bill becomes law; he objected to pay the levy, and of course the officials of his union resisted, and he took the case into the Law Courts, and the Law Courts decided he was right. The hon. Member for Stockport disputes the accuracy of my statement apparently.

    If the hon. Gentleman thinks that anything I said was inaccurate, let him afterwards give the House his view of what he conceives to be the true account of what actually happened.

    On a point of Order. The Noble Lord is moving to substitute in paragraph (b) the word "willing" for "unwilling."

    If the hon. Member would pay some slight attention to the proceedings of this House, he would then raise proper points of Order. What I was pointing out was that Mr. Osborne, in taking the action he did in the famous Osborne case, was simply doing what the Government are now requesting the minority of trade union bodies to avail themselves of under this Bill. I would like the House to remember how Mr. Osborne was treated. He was expelled from his union although he contributed to that union for nineteen years. He was turned out of the union although he had every right to be regarded as as good a trade unionist as hon. Members opposite. I believe it is true Mr. Osborne received £12 10s. compensation for the contributions he made. That is true, and I think it should be stated, but we know that other men expelled from trade unions for the same reason as Mr. Osborne was expelled did not receive a penny piece of compensation.

    I give the case of Mr. Joseph Park, who refused to pay the political levy of the Lancashire and Cheshire Miners' Federation. He was expelled from the union and has been subjected to every sort of persecution and indignity, and has not received a single penny in compensation for the contributions he paid last year. I bring forward these cases to show the necessity for my Amendment. I venture to assert that if a member of a trade union is asked to go to the officials of his union and say, "I object to pay for political purposes with which I do not agree," that man will be immediately regarded as a blackleg and an enemy of the trade union, and will receive the same sort of treatment that was meted out to Mr. Osborne and Mr. Park and many others, although, of course, it would not be possible to do it so openly after this Bill as heretofore.

    The hon. Member for Bolton says "Not at all," but I will tell him why I think so. This is what was said upstairs and in this House this afternoon by the hon. Member for South Glamorgan and others. The hon. Member for South Glamorgan laid down the principle very frankly that members of trade unions ought to have no possible objection towards contributing to the political funds of the Labour party, and his reason was this: He said the trade unionist who accepts the benefits which have been secured for trade unions by the Labour party in the House of Commons, with their Eight Hours Act and the Minimum Wage Act, and yet refuse to pay towards the election expenses of those Members, is getting something which he has never paid for, and has no right to, and is really sponging on his colleagues. That is the attitude of the Labour party; that is what they conscientiously believe to be right, and I think it represents the general view of trade unionists. That being so, how-can they possibly regard the privileges of this Bill as sincere and honourable towards trade unionists? The hon. Member for South Glamorgan has again and again said he has the utmost possible contempt for any trade unionist who is willing to take the benefits conferred by the Labour party, but who is unwilling to pay for their presence in the House of Commons. That to my mind accounts for the way Mr. Osborne and others have been treated by the executive of the trade unions.

    These arguments are really all arguments upon Second Reading. Will the Noble Lord address himself to the particular Amendment?

    We have been nearly twenty minutes listening to the Noble Lord's preliminary arguments.

    I would point out, if I may, why I thought what I said was perfectly relevant to the Amendment, and it is because the effect of my Amendment would be that those members who do not desire to contribute to the political funds of the union should not be obliged to make formal application, and thereby expose their identity to the trade union executive. The whole point is that the men who have dared to make formal application for exemption from paying to the political funds of their unions have been victimised in the past, and we have heard from the Labour Benches this afternoon that that victimisation is approved and would, presumably, be continued in the future. That is the sole reason why I am proposing this Amendment; otherwise it might seem to people a very small matter, whether the onus of application should be on the one side or the other. To my mind it is a very important question. If a man—let us say he is a Conservative trade unionist, and there are many such —is obliged to go to the leaders of his union, who are his political opponents, and say, "I object to paying the Parliamentary levy in support of the Labour party in the House of Commons," that man would be exposing himself to the treatment which I have described to the House.

    The hon. Member for Salford is mistaken. I said the vast majority of the trade unionists did not approve of the policy of the Labour party, but I never said the vast majority of the trade unionists were political antagonists of the Labour party. A vast majority of them are neutral, or they are not enthusiastic supporters of the Labour party or of any other political party. If a man is forced to declare which way he has voted in a ballot by making personal application for exemption under this Section, then he will be exposing himself to all the dangers which I have dwelt upon. Supposing this Amendment is carried, we shall be told that if a man refuses to make an application to be allowed to contribute to the funds of the Labour party, it will be said he is showing which way he voted in the ballot. We shall be told that the mere fact of allowing a man to withhold his application will not enable him to preserve secret the manner in which he voted at the ballot. That is what was said on the Standing Committee. I submit that that would not be so. A man might desire to refuse to contribute to the Labour party for a variety of reasons. He might wish to refuse because he was too poor, or because he had some personal reasons against a particular representative, or because he disapproved of the general policy of the Labour party. Therefore, by simply remaining silent, he would not be exposing himself to the same obloquy as he would if he had to go forward and take the same steps which Mr. Osborne had to take. I contend that this Amendment is consistent with the principle of the Bill. If the Labour party think they represent the opinion of the great majority of trade unionists, then they have nothing to fear from this Amendment Finally, if this Amendment is rejected, it will make it very difficult for any trade unionist to withhold his financial support from the Labour party without being considered what is known as a blackleg and an opponent of trade unionism.

    I beg leave to second this Amendment. My Noble Friend has adduced every possible argument that can be urged in favour of it. The Amendment is one of very great importance, and I think the Attorney-General will be ready to admit that that is the case. It was discussed in Committee, but it was not accepted. I think it is a proposal well worthy of reconsideration, and having regard to the fact that very few, if any, of the substantial Amendments brought forward in Grand Committee have been accepted by the Government, and that this Bill will go through the House practically in the form in which it was originally introduced, but somewhat strengthened from the labour point of view, I appeal to the Government to accept this particular Amendment which does not in any way alter the principle of the Bill. It is merely a question of procedure. The principle has been accepted that anyone who objects to contribute towards the Parliamentary fund shall have an opportunity of being exempted from such contribution. Therefore the only difference between us and hon. Members opposite is the simple question whether a member shall announce his intention and his desire to be exempted from the contribution, or whether failing to announce that intention he may be required to contribute. May I read the Clause as it will read after the Amendment is inserted?

    It will read as follows:

    "That any payments in furtherance of these objects are to be made out of a separate fund, in this Act referred to as the political fund of the union, and that any member of the union may contribute to such a fund if he gives notice in accordance with this Act that he is willing to contribute."

    The Amendment simply suggests that any one who is willing to contribute to this fund shall give notice to that effect, and I do think, after the previous Clause has been adopted by the House, that this Amendment might be accepted by the Labour party. Nearly every argument used in favour of not requiring a majority of the members of a trade union to signify their desire to contribute to the fund for political purposes applies to this case. The argument has been used that members of a trade union are often very unwilling to express their opinion, and it is difficult to get at the members who do not desire to express their views in writing. Ought it to be assumed for one moment that because the members of a union fail to indicate in writing or in any other way that they are unwilling to contribute towards the political fund, that therefore they are willing to contribute. That is a contention which cannot for one moment be maintained. Take any other case. Suppose one is a member, as I am, of the Unionist party, and they desire a contribution towards Tariff Reform or anything else, and they write asking me for such a contribution, and I do not reply. Ought it to be assumed that I am willing to contribute. It is assumed as the Bill stands that anyone who does not ask for exemption from this particular Clause shall be obliged to contribute, and it is only with a view to altering that procedure that this Amendment has been moved. This really is an Amendment which is absolutely necessary to protect the minority of members of a trade union, and I trust the Members of the Labour party themselves will see the necessity of accepting it. The Amendment will also considerably simplify this Bill. It will be seen that one or two Clauses can be left out if we do not adopt the artificial procedure of this measure, which requires everyone who does not desire to contribute to this political fund to express in some way his wish to be exempted.

    The Noble Lord who moved this Amendment said it was an important matter. That is quite true; in fact, it is so important that we could not accept it because it would change the Bill completely. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is what they want."] It follows from what the hon. Member for London University (Sir P. Magnus) has said, that once you adopt this Amendment you will have to leave out one or two Clauses, and that is quite true. It would necessarily follow, if we accepted this proposal, that we should have to change our Bill completely. The principle which was affirmed on the Second Reading was that you should give the right to trade unions of engaging in political operations provided you made certain conditions, one of them being that you should provide for the exemption of any person who claimed to be exempt. What the Noble Lord wishes to do by his Amendment is to say, "Oh, no, if a man wishes to contribute he may declare his willingness and then he may contribute and the union may receive his money." You do not want a Bill for that. You do not want a Bill to give a man the right to contribute, but you do want a Bill for the purpose of enabling a trade union to engage in political activities, and in order to do that we say you shall have this opportunity, but you must have the secret ballot; and further, you must give a written exemption in regard to it, and we make provision that these rights shall be easily exercised.

    7.0 P.M.

    What do you do if you adopt this Amendment? The hon. Member opposite was careful not to use the same arguments as those which were put forward by the Noble Lord. I am not sorry that the Noble Lord has repeated the same arguments which he used in Committee upstairs. He has taken a very strong line of opposition to certain provisions of this Bill, and he has conducted his opposition with marked ability. He has made speeches which show that he has devoted a great deal of time and attention to the subject, and that he has mastered it, but the one striking feature which always emerges from his argument is that the trade unionist who does not choose to pay and claims exemption will be a marked man, that he will be coerced, intimidated, and in many other ways made to suffer. That really is reverting to the kind of argument which was used upstairs, but from which so far during the course of this Debate we have been singularly free. I do not complain of any Member who chooses to say it would be better to do it in another way, but I do not think it is right to say, "We desire in every way to assist the unions, and we make no suggestion against them or against the way in which they carry on their work," and then to justify this Amendment upon the ground that if a member takes advantage of the Exemption Clause in the Bill he is going to be a marked man, and will be made to suffer all kinds of consequences. I think it is regrettable that argument should have been used. I am sure the Noble Lord will readily admit that in Committee we did, so far as we could, meet objections. I understand the view is that a man should have some opportunity of claiming some exemption in some particular form. We have given him an opportunity. It has been done. The main reason the Noble Lord moves this Amendment is because at bottom he is absolutely distrustful of the unions.

    Because I believe the hon. Member for South Glamorgan (Mr. Brace) believes what he says.

    That, no doubt, is very clever, but it is not quite so candid as the Noble Lord is usually. The Noble Lord, before he had ever heard the statement of the hon. Member for South Glamorgan, had made up his mind.

    It was said in Committee, and the Noble Lord welcomes it because it confirms him, but he had formed his opinion before he ever heard the hon. Member for South Glamorgan. I am not going to say there have not been cases in which members of trade unions have had cause to complain. I do not know any particular society or combination of men in which those things do not happen. The hon. Member for the University of London (Sir P. Magnus) said, "Why should you compel a man to contribute if he does not want? Why not let him simply declare whether he is willing to contribute? How can you justify compelling him?" Supposing he and I were members of the same club, and there was a vote taken upon a particular point of principle, it might be that neither of us voted upon it, but, nevertheless, we should be bound by the majority, and have to do what the majority wished. We should not even have the right to claim exemption.

    Here you are bound to do what the majority wish, and you can claim exemption.

    That is what I am pointing out. We should be bound, although not voting, by the majority, but in the trade union we give the right of claiming exemption in case a member does not wish to contribute. It is really difficult to see, except as a ground of objection to the Bill on Second Reading, how this Amendment could be put forward. I could understand it as a ground of objection to the Bill, but, if you are to take the Bill as it stands, you cannot accept the Amendment without fundamentally altering the whole principles on which it is founded.

    This Amendment is really necessary if the House is going to give effect to the assurances made over and over again in this House and in Committee that a man shall, after the passing of the Bill, be absolutely free to contribute or not to contribute to the political fund of a union, and that if he chooses not to contribute he shall not be damnified in any way. The right hon. Gentleman likened the case to a club. There is really no analogy whatever. The right hon. Gentleman is not bound to join any club in order to earn his living, but a man is bound to join a trade union in order to do his work. If the right hon. Gentleman were bound to belong to a club in order that he might earn his living, then the analogy might apply.

    I likened the method of voting in a club in answer to the argument used by the hon. Member for the University of London (Sir P. Magnus).

    The Attorney-General must see there is no analogy whatever. He is trying to draw an analogy between institutions which are totally and radically different. It is essential a man should under no circumstances be damnified if he chooses to exercise the right which the Bill is supposed to give him of claiming exemption. The provisions of the Bill are carefully drafted to provide for a secret ballot on the question whether the union should engage in political activities, and at the same time it is provided that the men who in the ballot oppose entering upon political activities should immediately afterwards be bound to declare in substance the way in which they voted. A man votes secretly against engaging in political activities. His secrecy is supposed to be safeguarded. That is an essential principle of the Bill according to the Attorney-General. Those men who oppose the union entering upon political activities will be those who will claim exemption, but the moment the resolution has been passed, if they want to claim the benefit of the exemption, they have got to declare themselves, and by that means declare which way they voted on the resolution. What is the use of the ballot? Is it not an illusion and a sham if you tell a man the moment there has been a ballot and it is against him "you have to declare you are in the minority;

    otherwise you get no benefit whatever"? It may do very well for the purposes of the platform, but, if it is examined, it will not bear criticism for a moment. A man is not to be damnified by claiming exemption, but, before he can claim exemption, he has to declare himself. He is in a minority; he may be in a small minority. The principle upon which trade unions have been supported has been that the majority should govern the minority. A man who is in the minority says, in the first place, "I do not want to belong to the union." You compel him. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] We know the methods that are used. It is no use denying it. It was admitted in this House not long ago, and it has been admitted to-day. Take a miner in the Rhondda Valley. He cannot help himself. Such pressure is brought to bear upon him that he has to belong to the union.

    How about the lawyer? Can a lawyer practise in a Court of Law without being a member of a trade union?

    Certainly he can. There are certain qualifications which a man has to possess before he is allowed to appear in one of His Majesty's Courts. But let me accept the analogy for the moment. Would the Attorney-General like the majority of the Bar, for instance, to say what politics the Bar should adopt, and would he like to be compelled to subscribe to those politics whether he agreed with them or not? That is the position in which you are going to put the members of the trade unions. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members say "No," but I most emphatically say "Yes." The unfortunate man has in the first place to declare he is opposed to the majority. What will be his position? He may be a man who has contributed for twenty or thirty years to the funds of the trade union and who is entitled under the rules of the union to receive benefits. If he lays himself out to oppose the majority of the union, they may deny him any benefit whatever, and he has no remedy. An hon. Member says I was one of the majority of four. I was, and if that majority had been a trade union, we should have been able to tyrannise over the minority according to the principles of this Bill. It is a very good example. A very small majority under this Bill would be entitled to deal with the minority in the most tyrannical manner. I held a meeting in my Constituency the other day, and I invited every trade unionist to attend. Some 1,200 attended. I put it to them1 that if a man were in a minority he would be a marked man. A trade unionist got up and said, "There are no marked men in trade unionism," but he was met by fifty voices, "Ain't there? There are plenty in Gloucester." I have never hesitated to put before my Constituency exactly my views on the matter, and the majority of my Constituents are trade unionists. It is an industrial constituency, and I have twenty-eight unions represented in it. If a member in the minority chooses to claim exemption the same methods would be used against him that are used to-day to compel a man to belong to a union. The safeguards in the Bill are purely illusory. I challenge the Attorney-General or any man to deny it. If a man who has contributed to the funds of his union for twenty or thirty years with the expectation and the right of receiving benefits in return for the money he has contributed sets himself up in opposition to the executive or the majority of that union, they can refuse to give him a single penny of benefit.

    How is it provided for in the Bill? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman refer to Clause 3, Subsection (2)? That simply provides that the man shall not be placed in any inferior or disadvantageous position. But how is that going to be enforced?

    I am loth to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but we are, I believe, going to discuss at a later stage the whole question of the effect of Clause 3. There are Amendments down, and I should like to know, if the matter is raised now, will it be open to me to reply on this Amendment.

    The right hon. and learned Gentleman himself raised the point. I think it was a natural invitation to continue the discussion.

    I only sought to point out that the hon. and learned Gentleman was not quite accurately stating the effect of the Bill, and I wished to draw his attention to the presence of this Clause in the Bill.

    I quite knew of the Clause; it is one of those which are utterly illusory. It does nothing more than express a pious opinion that a man ought not to be damnified. But there is no pro vision in the Bill which will save him from being damnified. There is no provision, should the Bill be passed in its present form, to prevent a man being absolutely debarred from enforcing his right to benefits. I do not think the Attorney-General will deny that he may be absolutely debarred from enforcing his right to any benefit whatever, simply because he has set himself up against a majority of the members of the union; if the majority should refuse him any benefit he has no remedy whatever. That is what makes the Clause a sham. There is no substance in it. There is no use in introducing into the Bill a Clause to the effect that a man shall not be damnified if he does a certain thing unless you also—

    I wish to submit that this Amendment is necessary if we are going to give effect to the statements which have been made by the Attorney-General and by other Members of the Government that, when this Bill is passed, every man shall be absolutely free to contribute or refuse to contribute towards the political funds. But I submit it is necessary not to put the initiative on the man to claim exemption, to put himself forward as a man who docs not wish to contribute. You ought to put upon those who desire to contribute to these funds the onus of taking the first step towards making that contribution. Why should you say to a man, "You shall contribute unless and until you have gone through some formality in order to relieve yourself." Why should you not say to those men who want to contribute, "If you want to contribute by all means do so." You are putting the onus on the wrong shoulders, and you are doing it because you know you will thereby force many men who do not want to to contribute to these funds.

    I desire to say a few words, because of the misrepresentation in regard to this matter which has arisen out of certain words used by the hon. Member for South Glamorgan. It is one thing to say—as the hon. Member has said—that in his opinion men ought to be members of a union, and that they ought to contribute to the Parliamentary fund when it is established. It is quite a different thing to say that when this Bill comes into operation they would then be treated unfairly, as has been suggested by speakers opposite. I want to deny absolutely, on behalf of the trade unions, that there will be any such coercion exercised, or any of the penalising which has been referred to. I want to say further that, from the historic standpoint, what the Noble Lord said with regard to Mr. Osborne is absolutely untrue. I will not go into that now. This is neither the time nor place to do so. But with regard to the other case the Noble Lord mentioned, I will have inquiries made. I am pretty well convinced that in that case also the reason stated by the Noble Lord for the expulsion of the man was not the real reason for which he was expelled. In the machinery of trade unionism, there is an opportunity for a man who is aggrieved, or who thinks he is improperly deprived of his benefits, to appeal to his fellows, and he gets a fair chance and a fair trial. It is unfair, therefore, to suggest that men would be tyrannised over or penalised in connection with this matter. I have myself down an Amendment which would meet this particular point. It will provide that if a member is aggrieved or' thinks he has been interfered with in regard to the matter of benefits, the Registrar is to have an opportunity of deciding whether the man is or is not aggrieved.

    I cannot say, but it shows our bona fidesin the matter. We want to give a fair trial and a fair chance to every man. We only want fair play; we have no desire to coerce men to pay if they have a strong objection to so doing. But we do say that in the case of those members who have no strong objection to pay, with whom it is not a matter of conscience or who may not have sufficient moral courage to say that they will decline to pay, we ask that in those cases we should have the facilities we already possess for getting in our ordinary contributions.

    The hon. Member made, in the latter part of his speech, a very weighty and forcible remark. Let me, if I can, put the position as it seems to us on this side. The ballot is part and parcel of this Bill, and the Government have recognised that secrecy and protection are required. There is definite provision to secure that. Therefore we may take it that in the opinion of the Government it is necessary that the voting should be secret, because obviously it might mean, if it were not secret, that the minority would suffer. No one would say for a single moment that trade unionists are any worse than any of us. But we do say that they are subject to the ordinary emotions and passions of human beings, and it is asking us to outrage common sense to say that at a time of burning political excitement, when a small minority assert their rights against a large majority, that majority has not the power, and may not very often have the will, to make it very disagreeable for the minority. There is not one Labour Member who would contradict that statement in a conversation in a private room, but somehow the House of Commons is supposed to be a place where any argument will do for any purpose. That it would be contrary to human nature and common sense is not denied by the other side. Let me ask hon. Members for a moment to look at it from the common sense point of view. It is recognised by the Government in their own Bill that the minority should be protected by secrecy; that is definitely admitted. As my hon. Friend pointed out, unless you do something in the, direction indicated by the Amendment, does it not become an absolute farce? You, in one place, proclaim secrecy, and in the next line you proclaim publicity.

    It will give secrecy in this sense, that it puts on the shoulders of those who wish to go into politics the burden of saying that it is their wish. It does not put the burden on the minority of dissenting from what may be believed to be the general opinion.

    The effect is perfectly plain. If a man has voted in the minority in the ballot it is kept entirely secret. But to ask any man who has voted against a political fund to announce to an official of his trade union, on an open form, that he dissents from paying any contribution to the political fund does away with all secrecy. It is a contradiction in the plainest possible terms to say that it is secrecy, and it must be borne in mind that the Government themselves have declared that they consider secrecy necessary. I frankly admit that the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman goes some way to meet our objection. I do not wish to commit myself to the exact terms. I recognise his good faith in bringing it forward. It shows he thinks that there is a good deal of force in our arguments and he has done his best to meet them. But take the case of a member who is in the minority. Assume that he has become the subject of public indignation. Hon. Members of course will say that he is deserving of it; they will say, "Here is a man taking all the benefits of the trade union and refusing to pay the contribution. Such a man is a low creature." Public opinion would be against him. No hon. Gentleman opposite will disagree with that. It is, I know, human nature; they would make it very hot for such a man because he is taking the benefits without bearing the burden. They would say he is a low creature.

    That is the view which is held. I am not passing any opinion upon it or saying whether it is right or wrong. That opinion exists, and it has been frankly admitted by the hon. Gentleman who so exuberantly interrupted me just now. His hon. Friend (Mr. Wardle) has seen that, and has seen that that indignation so expressed may result in coercion, I do not say in many cases, but in some cases being applied to the unpopular dissentients. He has endeavoured to meet that. He says that if that unpopularity or that pressure result in injury to the man, the Registrar of Friendly Societies, after giving the complainant and any representative of the union an opportunity of being heard, may make an order remedying the breach of the rule, and that on being recorded in the County Court it may be enforced as an order of the County Court. I think that goes a long way to meet us, but are the Government going to accept it?

    If that is so I will say no more. I think they have gone a good way to meet us in this matter, and I shall reserve anything further I have to say upon it until we get to that Amendment.

    I desire to make a submission for your ruling, Mr. Speaker. This matter has been discussed on the basis that the three Amendments hang together, although strictly and technically we are only on the first Amendment. If you take the three Amendments together, what you find is this, a proposal that those who desire to contribute to a Parliamentary fund may do so; that is to say, it is left quite voluntary on their part. I do not think there can be any question at all that at the present moment the law is that there may be such a voluntary contribution, therefore there is no need for an Act of Parliament to say that. Inasmuch as the purpose of this Bill is to amend the law with respect to the objects and powers of trade unions, and inasmuch as those Amendments would not be amending the law, I submit that if it is not entirely out of order, at all events it would be so reversing the purpose of the Bill as to land the House in a position of having to go through a First and Second Reading again if the Amendment were carried. I submit that point with great respect for your decision.

    I think the hon. Member is comparing small things with great. I do not think the alteration which he suggests could really be considered as of such a nature as to convert the Bill into a new Bill.

    In dealing with the Amendment I want, first of all, to refer to the argument just used by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. A. Lyttelton). Apparently he has come to the decision that if there is a minority who are required to sign their names contracting out of the provisions of the Bill, that is glaring publicity; but if it is the majority who are required to sign their names contracting into the Bill, then it is profound secrecy. Secrecy and publicity cannot depend upon whether a minority or a majority write their names, so that part of the argument cannot be used to sustain the reasonableness or otherwise of this series of Amendments. The hon. and learned Member for Gloucester (Mr. H. Terrell) repudiated with a good deal of indignation and warmth the idea that members of the Bar are members of a union. He said that they had to possess certain qualifications. That is quite true. One of the qualifications they have to possess is that they belong to one or other of the unions, otherwise called the Inns; another qualification is a capacity to eat so many dinners spreading over a certain period. I have been an official of a trade union, and I am a member of the Bar, and I say without hesitation that the regulations with which I am faced at the Bar are a great deal more drastic from a trade union point of view than the regulations with which I was acquainted in my trade union days. I take a typical trade union rule: That a bricklayer is required, if he goes outside a particular area into another area, to take his own bricklayer's labourer. But, in connection with the Bar, if I go outside my circuit to another circuit, I have not only to take a bricklayer's labourer in the form of my clerk, but I have also to employ alongside of me another bricklayer.

    I must apologise for having been drawn to the question of the analogy between the Bar and a trade union. This Amendment proceeds on the assumption that there is coercion, and unfair coercion, applied to men who do not see eye to eye with the Labour party. That is what it really amounts to. I am in a position to speak with some degree of authority on this question. At the last election I ran for a constituency, with a Conservative on one side and a representative of the Labour party on the other side. I have not heard from the time of that election up to now any single echo of coercion of those men inside the ranks of the Miners' Federation who did not see eye to eye with the Labour party, and who took either the Conservative or the Liberal side. I do not believe that there is this wholesale coercion and intimidation. I believe there is exactly the same regard for liberty of thought and freedom of expression and action on the part of trade unions as there is on the part of any political organisation. The hon. and learned Member for Gloucester suggested that if a man were, in fact, penalised by being expelled from his union after paying contributions for years, because of his political views, he had no remedy. That is not true. At this moment he has a complete and effective remedy, inasmuch as he can get an injunction restraining the expulsion, if the expulsion has been based upon any other ground than that of an actual breach of the rules on the part of that man. This Bill makes a sufficient and ample provision for seeing that the rule in that respect shall be perfectly fair, both to the majority and to the minority.

    I confess I was somewhat disappointed with the speech of the hon. Member for East Glamorgan (Mr. Clement Edwards), who speaks with some authority as the legal representative of the Labour party. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no."] I am sorry if I have attributed to the hon. Member qualifications to which he is not entitled. I expected that we should have had from him some observations of a rather more practical character in regard to the Amendment under discussion than the speech to which we have just listened. Although he gave us some very interesting reminiscences of his legal career, and some facts in connection with the bricklaying industry, he did not deal with the question under discussion. Neither did the Attorney-General deal with the question, which is one of the most important that can be raised in connection with this Bill, in a manner which I should consider satisfactory. In effect he told us that the principal objection he had to this Amendment was that if it were embodied in the Bill it would, as a matter of fact, change the whole character of the Bill.

    It might, of course, be necessary to make some changes in the Bill if this Amendment were embodied in it, but those changes would be in a direction of altering that portion of the Bill which, as it stands at present, we are entitled to regard as inconsistent and illogical, and bringing it more into accordance with common sense and what are supposed to be the underlying principles of the Bill itself. What are supposed to be the general principles of the Bill? The object of the Bill, surely is to allow trade unions to enter into political activity, subject to certain definite conditions, one of which is that no member of any trade union shall be forced to contribute to political funds unless he desires to do so. In the course of his speech the Attorney-General threw us into some, perhaps unintentional, confusion as to what are the principles of the Bill. There is an underlying fallacy in all the speeches made from the other side of the House both in connection with this Amendment and those which were moved yesterday. The assumption of hon. Members opposite is that political activities are now to become one of the primary objects of trade unions. Surely the very terms in which this Bill is framed and the existence of the Bill itself show that it is nothing of the kind. The primary objects of a trade union are clearly defined. The political objects into which trade unions are to be allowed to enter can only be regarded as subordinate objects. It is only intended that in certain definite conditions and under certain provisions, clearly stated in the Bill, that trade unions are to be allowed to enter into political activity at all. Therefore, surely, if that is the underlying principle of the Bill—and I maintain that it is—that the primary objects of trade unions are still to remain—those statutory objects which are summarised in Clause 2 of the Bill—the general assumption should be, with regard to the wishes of members of the union, not that every member of the union is anxious to contribute to the political fund, unless he expresses an opposite view, but rather that any member of the union who desires to contribute to the political fund should definitely express his willingness and desire so to do, and it is for this reason that I shall support the Amendment.

    The point which is at issue between the two sides is a very narrow one. It is as to the most effective way of giving protection to the person who may be described as the conscientious objector. The method suggested in the Bill is that the conscientious objector should ask for exemption from payment of the contribution. The method proposed in the Amendment is that every man who is willing to pay a contribution should sign a notice stating his willingness. It is suggested by hon. Members opposite that the latter method is the better way of giving protection, apparently on the ground that greater secrecy would be preserved. I was unable to follow the argument that there would be greater secrecy. If we consider how this would work in practice we see that there would be no greater secrecy, but there would be a great deal more irritation, and consequently a much greater likelihood of injustice being done to the minority of conscientious objectors. What would happen if it were necessary for every man who is willing to sign a notice to that effect? It would mean that the officials of a trade union which had decided to adopt political objects would have to go round and canvas their members and ask which of them were willing to sign, and the man who refused would naturally be regarded as a disagreeable person who did not succumb to the blandishments of the officials. On the other hand, under the scheme proposed by the Bill, the man will make his application for exemption. He will not thereby cause anything like the same degree of irritation as would be caused if the alternative

    Division No. 563.]

    AYES.

    [7.50 p.m.

    Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)Farrell, James PatrickMaclean, Donald
    Acland, Francis DykeFenwick, Rt. Hon. CharlesMacnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
    Adamson, WilliamFfrench, PeterMacVeagh, Jeremiah
    Addison, Dr. ChristopherField, WilliamM'Callum, Sir John M.
    Adklns, Sir W. Ryland D.Fitzgibbon, JohnMcKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
    Agnew, Sir George WilliamFlavin, Michael JosephM'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)
    Ainsworth, John StirlingFurness, StephenManfield, Harry
    Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)George, Rt. Hon. David LloydMarkham, Sir Arthur Basil
    Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)Gilhooly, JamesMason, David M. (Coventry)
    Arnold, SydneyGill, A. H.Meagher, Michael
    Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Ginnell. L.Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, ft.)
    Barnes, G. N.Gladstone, W. G. C.Millar, James Duncan
    Barton, W.Glanville, Harold JamesMolloy, M.
    Beale, Sir William PhipsonGoldstone, FrankMooney, J. J.
    Beck, Arthur CecilGreig, Colonel J. W.Morison, Hector
    Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, S. Geo.)Guest, Major Hon. c. H. C. (Pembroke)Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
    Bentham, G. J.Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)Muldoon, John
    Bethell, Sir J. H.Gwynn, Stephen (Lucius (Galway)Munro, R.
    Black, Arthur W.Hackett, J.Neilson, Francis
    Boland, John PiusHall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)Nicholson, Sir C. N. (Doncaster)
    Booth, Frederick HandelHarcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)Nolan, Joseph
    Bowerman, C. W.Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)Norton, Captain Cecil W.
    Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)Nugent, Sir Walter Richard
    Brace, WilliamHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Nuttall, Harry
    Brady, P. J.Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
    Brocklehurst, W. B.Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
    Brunner, John F. L.Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
    Bryce, J. AnnanHavelock-Allan, Sir HenryO'Dowd, John
    Burke, E. Haviland-Hayden, John PatrickO'Grady, James
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnHayward, EvanO'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasHazleton, RichardO'Malley, William
    Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)Helme, Sir Norval WatsonO'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
    Byles, Sir William PollardHenderson, Arthur (Durham)O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Henry, Sir CharlesO'Shee, James John
    Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)Higham, John SharpO'Sullivan, Timothy
    Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)Hinds, JohnOuthwaite, R. L.
    Chancellor, H. G.Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.Parker, James (Halifax)
    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Hodge, JohnParry, Thomas F.
    Clancy, John JosephHogge, James MylesPearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
    Clough, WilliamHolmes, Daniel TurnerPearce, William (Limehouse)
    Clynes, John R.Holt, Richard DurningPease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
    Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.Howard, Hon. GeoffreyPhillips, John (Longford, S.)
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hudson, WalterPointer, Joseph
    Cotton, William FrancisIsaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir RufusPonsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
    Crawshay-Williams, EliotJohn, Edward ThomasPringle, William M. R.
    Crumley, PatrickJones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvll)Radford, G. H.
    Cullinan, J.Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)Raffan, Peter Wilson
    Davies, E. William (Eifion)Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
    Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe)Reddy, M.
    Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
    De Forest, BaronJowett, Frederick WilliamRedmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.t
    Delany, WilliamJoyce, MichaelRichardson, Albion (Peckham)
    Denman, Hon. R. D.Keating, MatthewRichardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
    Devlin, JosephKellaway, Frederick GeorgeRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
    Dickinson, W. H.Kennedy, Vincent PaulRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)
    Dillon, JohnKilbride, DenisRobertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
    Donelan, Captain A.Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)Robertson, John M. (Tyneslde)
    Doris, W.Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)Robinson, Sidney
    Duffy, William J.Leach, CharlesRoch, Walter F.
    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Levy, Sir MauriceRoche, Augustine (Louth)
    Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)Lewis, John HerbertRoe, Sir Thomas
    Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)Rowlands, James
    Elverston, Sir HaroldLundon, ThomasRowntree, Arnold
    Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)Lynch, A. A.Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.
    Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
    Essex, Sir Richard WalterMcGhee, RichardScanlan, Thomas

    method in the Amendment were adopted, and on these grounds I hold that the method suggested in the Bill is a better protection to a member of the minority than that which the Opposition put forward.

    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

    The House divided: Ayes, 246; Noes, 67.

    Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.Tennant, Harold JohnWhite, Sir Luke (Yorks., E.R.)
    Sheeny, DavidThomas, J. H.White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Sherwell, Arthur JamesThorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)Wiles, Thomas
    Shortt, EdwardThorne, William (West Ham)Wilkle, Alexander
    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir James AllsebrookToulmin, Sir GeorgeWilliams, J. (Glamorgan)
    Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clltheroe)Trevelyan, Charles PhilipsWilliams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
    Smyth, Thomas F. (Leltrim, S.)Wadsworth, J.Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. w. (Worcs., N.)
    Snowden, PhilipWalsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir AlbertWard, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)Winfrey, Richard
    Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)
    Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)Wardle, George J.Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
    Sutherland, J. E.Warner, Sir Thomas CourtenayYoung, William (Perth, East)
    Sutton, John E.Watt, Henry A.Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Taylor, John W. (Durham)Webb, H.
    Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Wedgwood, Josiah C.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

    Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

    NOES.

    Balcarres, LordGuinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
    Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh HicksGuinness, Hon.W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds)Perkins, Walter F.
    Boles, Lieut-Colonel Dennis FortescueGwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)Peto, Basil Edward
    Bridgeman, W. CliveHall, Fred (Dulwich)Pollock, Ernest Murray
    Burn, Colonel C. R.Hardy, Rt. Hon. LaurencePryce-Jones, Col. E.
    Cassel, FelixHarris, Henry PercySanders, Robert A.
    Castlereagh, ViscountHenderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)Sandys, G. J.
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Hickman, Colonel T. E.Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)
    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)Horner, Andrew LongSmith, Harold (Warrington)
    Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)Hunt, RowlandStanier, Beville
    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)Hunter, Sir C. R.Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
    Clive, Captain Percy ArcherIngleby, HolcombeStewart, Gershom
    Clyde, J. AvonKerr-Smiley, Peter KerrStrauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
    Courthope, G. LoydKimber, Sir HenryTalbot, Lord E.
    Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)
    Eyres-Monsell, B. M.Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
    Falle, Bertram GodfrayLonsdale, Sir John BrownleeWheler, Granville C. H.
    Fletcher, John SamuelLowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
    Forster, Henry WilliamLyttelton, Rt. Hon A. (S.Geo.,Han.Sq.)Wills, Sir Gilbert
    Gardner, ErnestMason, James F. (Windsor)
    Gastrell, Major W. H.Mount, William Arthur
    Gibbs, G. A.Neville, Reginald J. N.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount Wolmer and Sir P. Magnus

    Glazebrook, Captain Philip K.Newton, Harry Kottingham
    Greene, W. R.Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

    I beg to move, to leave out the words "is unwilling" ["that he is unwilling to contribute"], and to insert instead thereof the word "objects."

    8.0 P.M.

    I am trying to bring this Amendment into accordance with general legislation in connection with these matters. The principle of the Bill is that a ballot should be taken, and, if the majority decides in favour of engaging in political objects, the union should make provision for exemption for those who do not wish to pay. In my opinion these words "is unwilling" are not at all definite enough. When the ballot has taken place and the members have decided to engage in political objects the onus ought to be put upon the person to do something more than simply say he is unwilling. When we deal with vaccination no one is allowed to get out of that by saying he is unwilling to have a child vaccinated. He must have a conscientious objection. The same thing applies under the Education Act. If a person wants to take a child out of school while religious education is being given he has to declare a conscientious objection. If a man thinks he is not being fairly treated under the Income Tax he must make a definite appeal. It is easy enough for anyone to say he is unwilling. In almost all walks of life if men could get out of paying anything by saying they were unwilling we should have a good many persons making use of that description. It has been said by the Noble Lord (Viscount Wolmer) more than anyone else, that men would be marked men if they claimed exemption in these circumstances. Any official who attempted to take advantage of any person who simply complied with the law would be in a rather difficult place himself. The members themselves watch what is done very carefully, and they see to it that their colleagues are protected so far as benefits are concerned. To impute motives in regard to making men marked men is rather unworthy of the Noble Lord. I think this is a reasonable Amendment.

    I will accept this Amendment. I do not think it is necessary to take up time discussing it.

    I really think there is more in this Amendment than the Attorney-General makes out. I confess if I were a trade unionist and was unwilling to support the Labour party because I disapproved of their policy on some vital question—for instance, the religious question, or because I had on some minor question a conscientious objection—I would feel justified in using the word "objects." If the Amendment means anything, it only means that a member should be allowed to contract out of the Act in a case where he has a real, conscientious objection. If I understood the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Gill) aright, what he wanted was a conscientious objection such as is entertained to the Education Act of 1902 by passive resisters. Before I could agree to this Amendment, I would like to be assured that it does not mean that the minority have got to place their objections on a level with those of passive resisters and of those who claim exemption under the vaccination law. If it is a question of conscientious objection, I should oppose the Amendment very strongly indeed; but if it is merely a question of drafting, I agree with the Attorney-General that it is not worth while making a fuss about it. If the hon. Member really wants to make the minority say that principles which they conscientiously hold are at stake, I think he is going a great deal too far, and my view is that a man ought to be able to withhold a contribution to the Labour party funds on grounds which may seem to other people exceedingly flimsy. There should be no pressure, direct or indirect, on any man to contribute to the Labour party funds.

    It has been stated that this is a drafting Amendment, but in my view it is nothing of the kind. The Attorney-General has a simple faith in trade unions which is almost a fetish. I say that these progressive Amendments, both upstairs and here, involve not only the possibility but the probability of pressure being used. You are driving a man into the open by steps. You profess to give him secrecy under the ballot. Secrecy of what? Secrecy as to whether ho is in favour of a union engaging in political objects at all. You first of all, under the Bill as it stands, make him come forward and say that he is unwilling to contribute, and now you go further and make him say that he positively objects. The Attorney-General accepts the Amendment at once, but I see elements of great danger in it. Secrecy and pressure are-interwoven in this matter.

    The right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I take that view. It seems to me that secrecy is necessary in order to prevent pressure. If you have first of all a negative form of expressing unwillingness to contribute, that is consistent with indifference to political action or positive dislike of the political action likely to be adopted by the majority. But when you proceed further and make a man object, you are making the original secrecy with which the ballot is surrounded less effective or absolutely inoperative. If there was going to be no question of pressure, there would be no need for the Bill at all. At the present time, according to the existing law, it is declared by the Osborne Judgment itself that members of trade unions, if they wish to furnish money for political objects, can form their own committees and collect their own funds. They can do that as an aggregate of individuals. In the past they have been unsuccessful in getting funds for political activity, and they come now for further powers. They want to put pressure, if possible, on a man, and you lend yourselves to that. Instead of making a man say that he is unwilling to contribute, you make him come before his order and say he objects. Let me point out what a vast difference there is in a man coming forward and saying he is unwilling to contribute and saying he objects. It is the moral aspect of the case to which I am directing attention. If you had allowed a man who is willing to come forward and who would be pleased and proud to come forward, to say, "I am going to do this," there would be no harm done, but instead of that you make a man, who is not pleased and proud to come forward, say, "I object," and thereby incur the odium of his fellows. Do you think that is fair to the individual? If safeguards are necessary—and by your own admission they are, for you have provided for secrecy under Clause 4, and you have inserted provisions in Clause 3 by which a man shall not have undue pressure brought upon him—why shape the Bill so that a man is going to be exposed to every possibility of pressure? You are dealing with a state of things in which he may be indifferent to political matters altogether. If you insert the word "objects" you import two things, namely in the first place, that he objects to contribute, and secondly, that he objects to the method of the expenditure which is likely to be made. I cannot understand how any man, trade unionist or not, who has any regard for the liberty of the working men of this country, can support a state of things like that. I am profoundly surprised that the Attorney-General should treat it as a matter of course, and that the Labour party should treat it as a matter of drafting. Bear in mind in dealing with this question that you say a trade unionist ought to contribute because he is enjoying the benefits of an industrial trade union. Do you think it is pleasure for him to pay for things which are not benefits, and which are distasteful to him? There is a great difference between getting benefits from an industrial trade union, which are certain, and paying for things done by a trade union with which you entirely disagree. I see here a departure from elementary liberty in asking a man to come forward and say that he is unwilling to contribute. I see an opportunity for pressure in asking a man to come forward and object. Not only does experience show that pressure is likely to be exercised, but on the form of the Bill as drafted the Government seem to expect it.

    On a point of Order. This Amendment would make the Clause read, "objects to contribute." Should it not be made to read "objecting to contribute"?

    I am in complete agreement with what has fallen from the hon. and learned Member for That. Is the Attorney-General really so simple as he claims to be in stating that the hon. Member for Bolton has risen to move this series of Amendments because of his burning ardour for some slightly better drafting in a Government Bill? The hon. Member for Bolton is much more candid than that. He did not claim any such intention. He said he moved it for practically one reason only, because the words "not willing" are not strong enough.

    I accept the statement of the hon. Member, but I want to remind the Attorney-General of what he said on the Second Reading. Dealing with the case of a man who joins his trade union for industrial benefits, he said

    "that man is also entitled to the protection of the Government when he says, that although he is a member of the union he objects to his money being used for the purposes of paying the expenses of a Member of Parliament or a candidate for Parliament."
    I notice that the Attorney-General used the word "objects" there, but he was speaking colloquially. In stating on the Second Reading of the Bill that the Government view was that the man was entitled to protection, he was undertaking a very grave responsibilty.

    Will the hon. Member mind telling us what, in his view, is really the crucial difference between saying he "is unwilling" and he "objects"? I think probably "objects" is, if anything, stronger, but to me it is so subtle that I cannot see that it is going to make any difference to the trade union.

    We proceed in these matters step by step. This is another step in the direction of pointing out more plainly the minority who do not agree with the political views of the majority. The very word suggests an obvious name which will be used for that handful of people who will be called the objectors. If that is not the object of this Amendment, I would very much like the hon. Members below the Gangway to tell us what the object is. If there is no difference, as the Attorney-General thinks, or only a very slight difference, why do they put down these Amendments and press them upon the House? In what way is this Amendment going to help them if it is not going to help them to carry out their political work? It will help in one direction only, the direction of bringing pressure to bear upon the minority to make it fall into line with the rest and subscribe to the political funds of the union. Coupled with the Amendment which has been negatived in the last Division, it is very unfortunate that the Government should be so willing to strengthen the pressure which is bound to be brought upon these people, who by the hypothesis of the Bill, have got to signify before they can get this exemption that they are a minority of people who are unwilling. To insist that these people shall say "we object" not necessarily to the political opinions of the trade union, but to contribute to the political fund, makes it infinitely easier for the majority to say, "these people are mean and unfriendly people who ought not to be allowed to be members of the union, who certainly ought not to be treated in the same way as other members who are in accord with us." If there is any real substantial meaning in what the Attorney-General said on the Second Reading, and in what is said to be the main basis of the Bill, that they are going to give effective protection to The minority, then I ask the Attorney-General at the last moment to withdraw his approval of this Amendment. Unless there is some very strong reason why it makes a better Bill, it is most unfair on the part of the Attorney-General to impose this still further slight disability, even if it is by way of pinprick, on the minority who are already in such a position of disadvantage.

    Amendment agreed to.

    I beg to move, at the end of paragraph (c), to insert the words:

    "If any member of a trade union alleges that he is aggrieved by a breach of any rule made in pursuance of this Section, he may complain to the Registrar of Friendly Societies, and The Registrar of Friendly Societies, after giving the complainant, and any representative of the union an opportunity of being heard, may, if he considers that such a breach has been committed, make such order for remedying the breach as he thinks just under the circumstances; and any such order, on being recorded in the County Court, may be enforced as if it had been an order of the County Court."

    We quite recognise the susceptibilities of hon. Gentlemen opposite with regard to this matter and feel that to some extent we have a right to meet them. Their fears in our opinion are groundless with regard to any coercion of members after this Bill becomes an Act, but in order to meet their susceptibilities, and in order that this shall not be a matter for the Courts, but that there shall be a proper tribunal which will not lead the unions into Court, we have put down this Amendment.

    It gives me the greatest possible pleasure to second this Amendment, because I recognise in it a very great change of attitude on the part of hon. Members opposite. The hon. Member for Stockport, in proposing the Amendment, has said that he has done so simply to allay our fears, although he does not recognise that there is really any ground for them at all. Of course we accept that statement, and think that it is a perfectly consistent ground for hon. Members to say, "We do not admit that there is any likelihood of this Amendment being required, but nevertheless we are ready to insert it in order to meet the argument which you have brought forward." This Amendment alters the Bill in a very important respect. It practically means that all the safeguards of the Bill, on which the Government have laid the greatest possible stress, have some reality about them, instead of being, as they were in our opinion before that, a fraud and a sham. I understand that this Amendment has been moved largely to meet the pledge that was made by the First Lord of the Admiralty when he was Home Secretary and Minister in charge of the Bill. He said that he was prepared to give the right to trade unionists to sue their unions if they alleged that they were damnified in availing themselves of the privileges given to them by this Bill. The Attorney-General, when this pledge was pointed out to the Government, then stated that, although he was not willing to carry out that pledge to the letter, he would be perfectly willing to allow appeal to be made to the Registrar of Friendly Societies. I gather that he has since arranged that the Labour party should be called upon to move the Amendment. I do not say—

    I do not think it was actually moved; we never had a debate upon it, we had a Division upon it. This Amendment was certainly never moved upstairs.

    I put down the substance of this Amendment upstairs, but it was not moved because we were told by the Attorney-General that it was unnecessary.

    Of course I accept the hon. Member's statement as to his intention. If I remember rightly, I think that the Amendment he did put down was really a very different one from this—one that did not go nearly so far as the present one, and which was more ambiguous. The Amendment which was on the Paper during the Committee stage was not nearly so satisfactory as this Amendment. In support of the present proposal, I should like to say that I do not think it goes wholly to meet our contention. The original proposal was that if a member of a trade union felt that he had a grievance, he could take that grievance to the Law Courts and have it fought out there. Hon. Members opposite have an invincible dislike to the law. If that is so —and I believe it is the case with a great number of others—then we on this side of the House are perfectly prepared to compromise on the Registrar of Friendly Societies, provided that he is given sufficient power to carry out his decisions. That, I understand, this Amendment does confer. Therefore, I regard this Amendment as a very important one indeed. If hon. Members look at the Order Paper they will see at the beginning that there were two proposals made on this side of the House which were never discussed— the first one because it was out of Order, and the second because the hon. Member who was to move it had not arrived in time, and had thought there would be a Debate on the first Amendment. Those two Amendments were put forward simply and solely with the same object as the hon. Member for Stockport has in moving his Amendment—that is to say, they were designed to give to trade unionists who felt they had a grievance the right to appeal to some tribunal, either the Law Courts or the Registrar of Friendly Societies, and have that grievance set right by authority of that tribunal. We certainly would not have put down those Amendments if the hon. Member had assured us that he would move this Amendment. I recognise that the hon. Member for Stockport has sought to meet us in this respect. From first to last my objection to this Bill has been that it was an imposture, a fraud, and a sham. It professed to give the minority the right to contract out of the political levy, and to give the minority safeguards, yet there was no method in the Bill at all by which those safeguards could be enforced.

    I have said before that this question of safeguards is, in my opinion, the whole crux of the Bill, and I confess to feeling infinitely flattered that the force with which he urged our contention in the Standing Committee has at last been felt by hon. Members opposite, that all that we advanced upstairs has not been in vain, and that they are prepared to come forward and make a substantial concession on the point. The reason why I attach so much importance to this Amendment is that I speak in this House on behalf of a large body of Conservative trade unionists in my Constituency. The hon. Member for Ince (Mr. Walsh), for whom I have the greatest respect, I am sure will not contradict me in what I say, that in that part of Lancashire which I represent a great number of trade unionists habitually or occasionally vote Conservative. Those men have felt very strongly on this subject, and I have received strenuous representations from them that this Bill would have placed them in a very unfair position, because the right which was extended to them to contract out of the political levy was an illusory one. I hope that when this Amendment is carried it will not be so. I hope that those men who are Conservative—who have every bit as much right to their political opinions as hon. Members opposite, and who have the right to be Conservative if they choose, however misguided hon. Members opposite may think them—will have a perfect right to refuse the political levy, and that, if they suffer for so doing, they will have the right to take the case to an impartial tribunal. It is for these reasons I second this Amendment. In my opinion, the Labour party have acted in a very sensible and a very straightforward manner. They have admitted the force of our contention, that without this Amendment the Bill would have been a fraud and a sham. They have met us half way, and I congratulate them heartily upon it. Although this Bill is not satisfactory, although it has its blemishes, in my opinion this Amendment will make the measure real, instead of a fraud and a sham.

    I think the Noble Lord who has just spoken has misunderstood the object of this Amendment when he suggests that without it the Bill would practically be a fraud and a sham. I imagine that he was speaking with his tongue in his cheek when he said that.

    If the Noble Lord objects to my saying that he spoke with his tongue in his cheek, I withdraw it. I certainly did not think that he could be serious when he said that the Bill was a fraud and a sham without the Amendment, and that it was a success to get the Amendment put into it. If he does so all I can say is he is arrogating to himself a credit which I do not think he is justified in claiming from what has happened, and he is also speaking, forgetting what did happen. Let me remind him what did take place. I have before me the Amendment that was before us in Committee which was moved in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle), by the hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes), by the hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson), and by another hon. Member. That is the Amendment which is down on the Paper, and one which was proposed by them in order to get rid of some fears which they had that if they had not some Clause of this kind in the Bill the result would be that they might be taken to the Courts on actions or for injunctions, and consequently be involved in very expensive and costly litigation. That was the reason they proposed it. They had some conversation with me, and apparently misunderstood what I said with reference to it. I said it certainly was not clear that actions would lie, and I am not at all certain that actions will lie except, of course, for injunctions against expulsion from membership. At any rate, I am not prepared, as I told them, to state on my authority so that they could rely on it, that it would be impossible to bring actions for injunctions under Clause 3, paragraph (c).

    Thereupon they said, as it seemed to me very naturally and rightly, if that is the case it is better to have this Clause in, so that we may have it in this form that the Registrar of Friendly Societies is to decide this question instead of being taken into Court, and having expensive litigation, with sometimes, I am afraid, expensive counsel. I am making no suggestion against anyone, but no one who is familiar with the history of litigation of trade unions will doubt but that employers have in the past, and I am speaking with definite knowledge, paid men to come forward, paid members of trade unions to come forward to bring actions in order to prevent a trade union expending its money, it might be for strike pay, or in some other way. These actions have cost very large sums of money, and have been taken to the House of Lords. I am making no complaint against them; it is perfectly legitimate warfare, but that kind of thing ought not to take place under this Bill. At the same time it is quite right that there should be some tribunal with the simplest possible procedure to provide a remedy without any difficulty of any sort or kind, and where there is no expense and no appeal. The matter goes before a man who is used to dealing with trade unions, who lives in the atmosphere of trade unions, and knows fully all the points which sometimes may look a little small in Courts of Justice, but which are real points to trade unionists. The Registrar of Trade Unions is a man who can understand those points and deal with them. For that reason I think my hon. Friend is perfectly wise and right in the interest of trade unions in his proposal. That by doing so he has satisfied the Noble Lord and hon. Gentlemen opposite is no argument against it. If it did satisfy them, and if they think the Bill is better it may be that they will not vote against the Third Reading. That seems to me to be an argument all in favour of it. I am not suggesting that they are in any way bound. It helps to relieve apprehensions some persons may have, and, at any rate, trade unionists have acted very wisely in the interests of trade unions in saying, "We will not run the risk of actions in Court."

    As one who has had a good deal to do with the trouble that resulted in the Osborne Judgment, and as one who advised the acceptance of this Bill as it left the Committee stage, I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that this particular Amendment, now when I see it in cold print, is one that will inflict just as great damage on trade unions in the future as the Osborne Judgment has in the past. The reason why I have so consistently advised trade unionists' acceptance of this Bill was not that the present Bill was a complete satisfaction of their honest demands, but because it did really give us the chance of keeping out of the Courts; and now a new danger is proposed to be instituted. By whom? By our very friends. Of course, the Attorney-General says that this would be easy of access, and not very costly, and that you will get rid of injunctions, and, I suppose, all will be calm and bright thereafter. As a matter of fact is it quite so easy to get before the Registrar of Friendly Societies. Because of the infinite friction that will be created under this very Amendment we are inviting the thousand and one out of the millions of trade unionists constantly to take us before the Registrar. In addition to that you are creating a new offence that has hitherto been unknown to trade unions. The Amendment says:—

    "if any member of a trade union alleges that he is aggrieved by a breach of any rule made in pursuance of this. Section."

    Of course, I will be told by lawyers whatever grievance he complains of must be strictly limited to breaches of any rule made in pursuance of this Section. Yes, of course, and so soon as the poor simple fellow alleges he is aggrieved by this Section he will have the lawyers saying, "You are perfectly right; you are aggrieved by this Section, and, of course, you must get along to the Registrar." You are therefore, first of all, making a new authority. The Registrar's functions have hitherto been confined to seeing whether the rules laid down by the society were in pursuance and in accordance with the Friendly Societies Acts. His powers have been strictly limited to that, but now you are making him a judge in the first instance, and you go on to say,

    "if he considers that such a breach has been committed he may make such order for remedying the breach as he thinks just under the circumstances, and any such order on being recorded in the County Courts may be enforced as if it had been an order of the County Court."

    The County Court is being brought in, the Registrar is being brought in, new functions are being created, unlimited powers are being given to the Registrar. He may "make such order for remedying the breach as he thinks just under the circumstances." In the Bill which had as its object their settlement, the difficulties, friction, and injustice created by the Osborne Judgment are being reopened once more, and under a Clause which is given to us by our Friends. It is perfectly true that it has been proposed by a Member of my own party; it is perfectly true that it stands in the name of a Friend and of a trade unionist. But I recognise my responsibility to my own trade union, as well as the responsibility which up till now I have taken in advising the acceptance of the Bill. That responsibility I am no longer willing to take. Rather than accept the Bill with this Amendment, I would refuse the Bill altogether. It reopens once again, and indeed with far greater probability, the prospect of members taking up this course of action. If the Registrar of Friendly Societies is easy of access, that will only multiply the cases that will be specially raised by prompters such as the Noble Lord {Viscount Wolmer). It is perfectly true that there are Conservative working men and trade unionists of whom he knows in the Newton Division. I think it is equally true that a good deal of the prompting of these Conservative trade unionists has come from the Noble Lord himself and his Friends.

    Whether that be the case or not, it is very curious indeed that working men with 25s. a week can spend thousands of pounds in the Law Courts. That crime—because it is nothing else than a crime—against trade unions will be repeated manifold under this Amendment. I am not prepared to accept it, and sooner than accept such a Clause I will vote against the Bill.

    I think my hon. Friend must have spoken under very serious misapprehension as to the meaning of the Amendment standing in the name of my hon. Friend. If my view could be reconciled with that of the Noble Lord opposite (Viscount Wolmer) or with that of my hon. Friend (Mr. Walsh), I should be opposed to the Amendment. It seems to me that what we have to do is to apply our minds to the actual practical working of trade unions under this Bill when it becomes an Act. This Amendment applies in connection with Clause 3 (c). If a man feels that he has been forced into a Parliamentary levy and deprived of trade union benefit, under this Amendment he may apply to the Registrar for redress. The Registrar will say "Yes" or "No." The man cannot appear before the Registrar with expensive counsel. If he wants to appear himself he may do so. He has to make out his own case, as we have to make out our case for the trade union. The whole thing is simplified. The Amendment creates a very simple and inexpensive tribunal to settle any grievance that may arise if a minority man feels himself aggrieved. After all, we start with the basal proposition that we cannot make a man responsible for this Parliamentary fund. I wish we could. In my judgment that is the weakness of the whole Bill, and when we come to deal with the Third Reading we shall be able to say that we only accept it as an instalment of what we think we ought to have. But to argue, simply because my hon. Friend proposes an inexpensive tribunal, that we shall be setting up a position infinitely worse than, or as bad as that which existed before the Bill, is, in my view, to take a very extravagant view of the situation. The law at present is that one man can tie up a trade union. One man has done so, and has made us entirely helpless as a political force and power in the land. Under this Bill, if one individual member of a trade union feels himself aggrieved, he may go to the Registrar of Friendly Societies and get his grievance corrected, and the trade union will yet be free to go on with its political work and activities. I accept the rendering of the Amendment given by the Attorney-General. It would be presumption on my part to assume a knowledge of law in the presence of such an authority. He has told the House of Commons that the explanation he has given is the real legal interpretation of the Amendment. Therefore I accept it. I say, further, that the Amendment has been the subject-matter of discussion and decision with the Labour party, and, whatever my own opinion might be, it is the Amendment of the Labour party, and I stand loyally by it.

    History has a way of repeating itself in regard to trade union legislation. The speech which the hon. Member (Mr. Brace) has just delivered is in almost precisely the same terms that were used by the chairman of the Labour party in this House when the Trade Disputes Act of 1906 was being discussed. Then the Labour party got into a dilemma; then the Labour party nearly betrayed the whole of the trade unions of the country; and then the Labour party by their spokesman endeavoured to get rid of their own responsibility by suggesting that they accepted the interpretation of the then Attorney-General. I say without hesitation that if this Amendment is carried it will open the door to actions against trade unions in flood and volume hitherto undreamt of.

    Before the Registrar. I will use the term "legal proceedings." The Attorney-General has dwelt upon the question of the tribunal, as also has the hon. Member for South Glamorgan. I do not think that the question of the tribunal matters very much, and I am not going to say much about it. But if the process, as suggested, I believe rightly, by the Attorney-General, is going to be easy, simple and cheap, it will encourage a much larger number of aggrieved members to take proceedings. The real crux of the Amendment is in the proposition that members are in future to have a right of enforcing their penalties as against trade unions. At present they have no such right. The Attorney-General shakes his head. It was decided only the other day by the House of Lords, after the expenditure of some £1,000 or £1,200 by the trade union, that a member has cot a right to enforce benefits.

    What I said was: that that is not the Amendment. The Amendment only gives him the right, if he is aggrieved by a breach of the law made under this Section.

    We need not be— and I regard this as vital—in the least degree at cross purposes. Let me construe the Amendment. The Amendment refers to a breach under a rule made in pursuance of this Clause. This is Clause 3. Under Clause 3 there are certain rules which may be made and certain conditions laid down. One of them is contained in Sub-section (1), paragraph (c). That says—

    "that a member who is exempt from the obligation to contribute to the political fund of the union shall not be excluded from any benefits of the union, or placed in any respect either directly or indirectly under any disability or at any disadvantage as compared with other members of the union."

    What that means is this: that if a member of a union does not desire to be part and parcel of the political section of the union, and manifests any opposition to what may be the dominant Labour party section in the union, and if because of that, that member is refused sick benefit or strike or industrial benefit or—and this is rather the point—is expelled from membership of the body and thus deprived of benefits, friendly or industrial, it means, if any of those things happen, because of a man's political attitude, then a breach of the rule made under this Section has arisen; thereupon he can go to the Registrar and allege that he has been deprived of those benefits, and the Registrar is clothed under this Amendment with absolutely unlimited power. He can make any such order for remedying the breach as he thinks fit, and that order has the force of an order of the County Court. I say, and I say unhesitatingly, that this is an absolutely new law for the trade unions in this country. I say more: It is in effect a repealing of Section 4 of the foundational Act of trade unions, the Act of 1871. That Section says:—

    "4. Nothing in this Act shall enable any Court to entertain any legal proceeding—

    It does not even say action—

    "instituted with the object of directly enforcing or recovering damages for a breach of any of the following agreements, namely,
  • 1. Any agreement between members of a trade union as such concerning the conditions on which any members for the time being shall or shall not sell their goods, transact business, employ or be employed.
  • 2. Any agreement for the payment by any person of any subscription or penalty to a trade union.
  • 3. Any agreement for the application of the funds of a trade union—
  • (a) To provide benefits to members…

    9.0.P.M.

    That Section from the foundational Act, from the very charter of the liberties of trade unions, expressly prohibits the right of an aggrieved member to bring any legal proceedings for the purpose of enforcing the payment of his benefits. This Amendment proposes that in future, so long as the aggrieved member shall allege that he has been deprived of those benefits for political purposes, for political reasons, or on political grounds, that he can go in the face of that Fourth Section of the Act of 1871—can go to the Registrar and the Registrar can make any order he likes without limit or stint. It is not a question of tribunal. That is comparatively unimportant. But I do regard this as of vital importance, and I say as one who has stood here and in the country for the preservation of the industrial side of trade unions, much as I regret to oppose the Government on this question, and much as I regret to oppose my hon. Friends here, I shall not only vote against the Amendment, but I shall do my level best, between now and the Third Reading, to warn the trade unionists in the country of the dire peril in which they are placed by the Amendment which opens the door to actions against which the door is now closed, and which undoes the very principle upon which trade unionism was founded in 1871. The Mover of this Amendment does not even make this proposal bilateral. He merely proposes that an aggrieved member can enforce his benefits against the trade union through the Registrar. He docs not even propose to repeal that portion of the Trade Union Act that gives trade unions a grievance Against the member and the right of en- forcing their contributions. I appeal to Members of the Labour party, for the sake of the future strength of trade unions, for the sake of keeping them free from the harassing and embarrassing litigation which has been so troublesome, to withdraw this Amendment. I hope the. Attorney-General will not insist upon going to a Division. It has been said, and the point is made, that hitherto there have been costly proceedings. Why? There have been costly proceedings by means of injunction to secure what is called the status quo, that is to restore a man to membership—injunctions have not gone beyond that with an aggrieved member in an action against his trade union.

    Does the hon. Member suggest, supposing the member is expelled and declined the benefits of the union in consequence of a breach of Subsection (1), paragraph (c), that that member would not have the right to go to the Courts and obtain an injunction?

    What I say is this: that an aggrieved member under the existing law can, if he is expelled, go to the Court, and, as in the case of Howden versus Yorkshire Miners, get an injunction to put him back into the same position of membership as he occupied before. That he can do now. [An HON. MEMBER: "No." I I beg your pardon, that is what he can do under the existing law at the present moment. There are half-a-dozen cases, but what he cannot do, what no Court has yet said he can do, is that when he is replaced in membership he can positively enforce the payment of the benefits provided for in the rules. On the contrary, the House of Lords expressly said the other day that by reason of this very Section 4 of the Act of 1871 that he cannot do that. The sole point is this: If this Amendment becomes law, the position will be then that if a man has been expelled" from his union and deprived of benefits for any other than political reasons, then the extent of his remedy is an injunction to-replace him in membership. If, on the other hand, it can be shown that he has been deprived of his benefits for political reasons he can then have them removed by injunction and get replaced in membership; or, exercising the further right this Amendment gives, he need not proceed by injunction but by a process through the Registrar, and may get what damages the Registrar likes. That is a new power which I regard as exceedingly dangerous.

    and I say unhesitatingly that if the Labour Members are well advised, if they really desire to preserve the industrial side of trade unions even at this late hour, they will withdraw this entirely mischievous and destructive Amendment.

    The hon. Gentle man who has just spoken showed great and passionate anxiety for fear there would be an increase in civil proceedings in regard to trade unions. While not doubting the sincerity of his anxiety or the reality of his passion I do hope if this Amendment is passed some weighty consideration will compensate and console him for the moral injury done to trade unions in the multiplication of civil proceedings. The hon. Member has attempted to answer the arguments of the Attorney-General in regard to this Amendment. At the present moment a man can go to the Courts for an injunction, and he can be reinstated in his union. Is the hon. Gentleman so distrustful of trade unions and, in my opinion, so unfair to trade unions, as to say that any trade union which would be ordered by an injunction of the Court to receive a man back to its fold who had been an expelled member, would then withhold the benefits from him? That is the whole of the hon. Gentleman's fear. I am not saying I am as ardent a supporter of trade unionism as he is, but I am certainly not so unfair or unfriendly as to say that, and I candidly confess that a more amazing proposition from one who believes in the trade union movement as an honest movement honestly conducted, I cannot conceive. He conceives this, and it is upon this he works himself into this passion. Under the existing law an injured man whose benefits are taken from him can go to the Courts and demand re-entrance; he can not insist, by reason of Clause 4 of the Trades Union Act of 1870, that the trade unions shall pay any benefits to him, but I ask again, Can anybody on either side of the House conceive a case where a trade union, compelled to receive a man back, would not take him into benefit—

    And avail themselves of a technicality? It is too utterly disgraceful to think of; I do not believe that ever was or ever will be done. That one who professes himself so interested in and identified with the trade union movement should resist this Amendment put forward officially by the Labour party, fills me with surprise, which I will not express too harshly. The hon. and learned Member may be quite justified in his view of the law as to what will result if the Amendment is accepted. May I call his attention to the fact that by reason of the Amendment of the Attorney-General, which we passed to-day, you have left in certain obligations which have statutory obligations, and which therefore can be a matter of appeal to the Courts, namely, that ballots should be taken in accordance with the Act, and that rules should be enforced containing certain enumerated provisions? By the proposed Amendment the rules are to be dealt with only by reference to the Registrar of Friendly Societies. Mark the danger you are running if you do not put in the new method of enforcing the rules. You are in this position, that an aggrieved member would go to the Courts for an injunction if he could show no ballot was taken in accordance with the Act. There is no domestic remedy such as is suggested by this Amndment. He could go to the Courts and say I am entitled by the terms of this Act to come to the Courts if there are no rules in force providing so-and-so and so-and-so; and he could say that "no rules in force" mean "no rules in effective force"; and he could go to the Courts for an injunction to enforce any Statute where you have no other remedy and the Court itself must decide as to whether the rules are in effective force. I put that forward as a question of law; I do not know what the Attorney-General may think of it.

    I will tell the hon. and learned Gentleman it is in consequence of a question of that kind arising as to the jurisdiction of the Court that the provisions under Clause 3 are made. I agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman that it was by no means clear, and I think I so stated when addressing the House. I said in Committee, and I venture to repeat it, and I am sure that the hon. and learned Member will agree with me, that if an injunction was granted in certain circumstances—that is, against expulsion—and that that member was readmitted and that the union ever did such a thing as to refuse benefits, I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that the Courts would find a means of compelling the union to carry out the judgment of the Court and would not allow itself to be treated with contempt.

    I am much obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and being enforced by the expression of his view, with which I entirely agree, it is unnecessary for me to add anything more on the legal aspect These matters of trade unions are very complex. There is room for all sorts of indefinite and undefined things. Speaking as a lawyer, not upon the merits, which must be determined by those whom the matter more particularly concerns, I want to point out that the passion of the hon. Member for East Glamorgan was vapid and theatrical, and that his law on this matter was of a piece with it.

    There is no doubt that the Attorney-General made a great deal of the contention of my hon. Friend (Mr. Walsh). There are one or two points in connection with the Amendment that some of us in this quarter of the House would like some more information and explanation upon. It is pretty well understood, so far as the Courts are concerned, that when trade unionists are involved at the present time, and when the question of the expulsion of a member is involved, or anything of that sort, which they think has been done unfairly and in opposition to the rules, they would restore such member. In that case they had got injunctions against trade unions, and insisted upon them admitting the man to membership, and so practically enforcing their will with regard to that matter without any damages and reinstating the man into membership. If the Attorney-General will look at this Amendment I think he will agree that were the parties to enforce this proposal instead of the Registrar-General it is a moral certainty we should have to look very carefully into the wide powers we are giving to this authority. Apparently it is absolutely without limit when once the Registrar-General is satisfied that a grievance on the part of a member who alleges a complaint is justified. If any member of the trade union alleges that he is aggrieved by a breach of any rule made in pursuance of this Section he may complain to the Registrar-General and if he consents and agrees that such a breach has been committed he may make such order for remedying the breach as he thinks just under the circumstances. Does that include reinstatement only? Does it give the Registrar power to punish by damages? [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] That is the only complaint I have to make of the Amendment, and I wish to ask, are we satisfied that we are not giving the Registrar-General by those words absolute power to make whatever order he chooses for the purpose of remedying a grievance. Will that power allow the Registrar to inflict damages upon the trade union, and to impose his will through the Courts afterwards? I confess that by these words we are setting up a new authority which is more friendly than the ordinary Courts and is not so dangerous, but if it is proposed to give to the County Court this enormous power, I should like some limitation upon the power of the Registrar-General, because of what follows immediately after. When once the fiat of the Registrar-General goes forth it becomes an order of the County Court, and then with all our temerity and fear about Courts interfering with us, the moment it is an order of the County Court, it is enforceable by injunction, by contempt and by imprisonment, if the officials of the society will not carry it out.

    I wish the Attorney-General could suggest some words which would reinstate the man into his benefit and make some provision for enforcing the rule upon the executive of the managing body of the society. If this power were limited to that, I could understand it, but it seems to me these words are of such wide scope that it would include almost any proposition whatever the Registrar-General decided was in his opinion in any given case put before it, even if it imposed a monetary line upon the society for the damage done to the member. The moment that fiat has gone forth, the whole Courts would be at the disposal of the member to enforce that order upon the society. Is that a strict legal interpretation of the power we are placing in the hands of the Registrar-General? I do not say it is; I do not know what the words imply, and I should like someone friendly to the movement to explain them, because much depends upon those words. Is this an absolute power given to the Registrar to do what he likes and make any mortal order he chooses which he considers just, and you cannot call into question his decision, and the only thing that follows is the enforcement of his order by the Court? Does that power involve a monetary fine upon a member? A man may have damaged a member because of his hostility to the political fund, and this is a dangerous power to place in the hands of any man without some limitation. I should like to know the exact scope and meaning of those words before I vote for the Amendment. I do not want to pledge myself until I know exactly what this proposal means. I confess it looks dangerous as it stands without some limiting words giving a little more protection than the words seem to imply.

    I confess that when I saw this Amendment on the Paper I regarded it with a considerable amount of doubt and suspicion, not because I feared any evil effects to trade unions, but because I thought it was rather a novel precedent to confer upon an administrative officer the judicial powers contained in this Amendment. I have no hesitation now, in view of all the circumstances, in commending to my hon. Friends below the Gangway this proposal, and I will give the House my reason. One of the most solicitous affairs of the Legislature with regard to trade unions and friendly societies is protection from litigation. If you look not merely at the Trade Unions Acts, where the legislation is very strenuous, and at the Friendly Societies Acts, you will find the same policy pursued. The Section with which we are dealing lays down in very clear and precise language what the duties of the Registrar are to be with regard to the rules which govern the creation of a political fund. It lays down that the payments shall be made out of a separate fund, that the political object shall be approved by the union, and, coming to the critical question in which we are engaged to-night, that a member who is exempted from the obligation to contribute to the political fund of the union shall not be excluded from any benefit of the union or placed in any respect, either directly or indirectly, under any disability or any disadvantage as compared with other members of the union by reason of his being so exempted, and the contribution to the political fund of the union shall not be made a condition for admission to the union. You get there a clear purview of the limitation of the powers of the trade union in respect of the control of its political fund and in respect of the conditions which shall regulate the admission and the membership of those who wish to become members of the trade union. If any member of a trade union alleges he is aggrieved —by what?—not by some misconduct or misfeasance on the part of any leader of the union, but by any breach of any rule made in pursuance of this Section, he may complain to the Registrar of Friendly Societies. What is that Registrar to do? He is to consider if such a breach has been committed, and, if he thinks it has, he may make such order for remedying that breach as he thinks just under the circumstances. No Court of Justice would for a moment entertain the suggestion that involved his power to give general damages against the trade union or to override the policy of the trade union. I hold that the words of this Amendment oust the jurisdiction of the Courts.

    There may be a difference of opinion, and, if there be any difference of opinion, I would respectfully suggest to the Attorney-General that he might add at the end of the Amendment the words "and the decision of the Registrar shall be final and conclusive." That, at any rate, would be effective in preventing any intervention of the Courts. Let me point out that without this Amendment it is perfectly obvious nothing would be easier in the world than for any person who conceived himself to be aggrieved to go to the Courts.

    The hon. and learned Gentleman is surely not reading the Amendment aright. The man will still have the Amendment as an alternative if he wishes to exercise it.

    With all due respect to my hon. and learned Friend, whose knowledge on the subject no one will question, I respectfully demur and say that in my humble judgment the Courts would say, "A remedy has been provided you under the Statute, and you have no right to come here." I do not want to speak dogmatically, and I have no right to assert greater knowledge than my hon. and learned Friend, but that is my view. I would, however, add the words "final and conclusive" to remove any doubt. Supposing the Amendment was not accepted, what would be easier than for a man who thought himself aggrieved to go to the Courts and say, as indeed has happened in various cases, "I have been excluded from the benefit of the fund, and ask for an injunction? It is idle to suppose that the man who would vexatiously for the purpose of harassing the union go to this domestic tribunal would not equally go to the High Courts if this domestic tribunal did not exist. I have considered the matter carefully, and I do say, on the whole, that I think the Attorney-General has done perfectly right in the interests of the trade unions. These forebodings of my hon. and learned Friend are really unfounded, and the hon. Member for Stoke-upon-Trent (Mr. J. Ward) need be under no apprehension that the powers of this tribunal would extend to giving damages against the union.

    I am, in common with other hon. Members, in a position to command the commiseration of the House. I am neither a lawyer nor a trade unionist, and I have received from Gentlemen speaking in both those capacities advice of a wholly contradictory character. I would remind the House this forms no portion of the Bill as introduced. We hear a good deal from hon. Gentlemen on these two benches about there being no difference between Liberal and Tory, but in this case there is no difference between Liberal, Tory, and Socialist; they are all going into the same Lobby, and they are going to add a provision to the Bill which the Government never thought necessary. It has been moved by the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle), and has been seconded by the hon. Member for Newton (Viscount Wolmer), who is one of the strongest and most persistent opponents of the Bill. I will only venture to take one point with the greatest diffidence. I am told by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Glamorganshire (Mr. C. Edwards), for whose legal knowledge and whose service to trade unions I have the greatest possible respect, that this is going to set up a new disability on trade unions and to make enforceable for the first time the payment of money benefit. The Attorney-General, of course, intervened and contradicted that point. I have got the Trade Union Act, 1871, here. I certainly cannot construe it like a lawyer, but to my humble, uninstructed mind these words seem perfectly clear:—

    "Nothing in this Act shall enable any Court to entertain any legal proceeding instituted with the object of directly enforcing or recovering damages for the breach of any of the following agreements."

    And then in Sub-section (3):—

    "Any agreement for the application of the funds of a trade union to provide benefits to members."

    Those words appear perfectly clear. The Attorney-General then proceeded to say, "Oh, yes, but the Courts would consider it unjust, and would manage to get round the law." That was the effect of his statement—that some means will be devised for the Courts to get round Trade Union Acts. That is precisely what hon. Gentlemen on the Labour benches are always complaining about. They say the Court is always doing an injustice. In my humble opinion, and judging the matter on the spur of the moment, trade unions ought to be deeply grateful to the Member for Ince (Mr. S. Walsh) for the courageous stand he has made; to the hon. Member for East Glamorgan (Mr. Edwards) for the service he has once again rendered trade unionism. He is perfectly well entitled to say that he was largely instrumental in tightening up the Trades Disputes Bill, 1906, and now he has rendered further service to the industrial side of trade unionism, a side incomparably more important than the merely political side. I shall, at any rate, unhesitatingly vote with him in the Lobby.

    A good deal has been made in this Debate of the fact that the Amendment was seconded by the Noble Lord the Member for Newton, and that it has been opposed by the Member for Ince. I want to make the matter perfectly clear. If the Amendment had not been seconded by the Member for Newton, it could and would, I think, have been seconded by almost any other Member of the Labour party. The hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) did not put this Amendment down in his own name. He put it down on behalf of the party, and the party is going to stand by it. I have listened attentively to the statement made by the Member for Glamorgan, and we know the valuable work he has done on behalf of trade unionism, but I feel that, on this occasion, the advice he has offered to the Labour party is such that it would be unwise for UB to follow it. If there is one fear we have in connection with this Bill, it is that there are many legal pitfalls in it. We believe there are pitfalls in this particular Section, and, therefore, we are exceedingly anxious to do something to keep us away from the possibility of those costly injunctions which have been the cause of the depletion of many trade union funds during the last five or ten years. The position taken up in this Amendment was, it is quite true, taken up after consultation with the learned Attorney-General, but it was of our own initiative, because we, as a party, were exceedingly anxious to get some other tribunal than the ordinary legal costly tribunal to which discontented individual members have been taking us during the last few years. I sincerely hope that Members on all sides, when this goes to a Division, will support the hon. Member for Stockport in getting this Amendment added to the Bill.

    I can only speak by leave of the House, but, as I have been asked a number of questions upon certain points, I may perhaps be allowed to deal briefly with them. I cannot help thinking there is an enormous amount of misapprehension and misunderstanding as to this Amendment. The hon. Member for East Glamorgan has rendered good service to trade unionism, but he seems to think in connection with what has happened here that the door has been opened wider, and that the result will be that all kinds of actions prohibited by trade union Statutes are now to be let loose or made available against trade unions. There never was a greater mistake. If it were the case I would agree that the Amendment ought not to be adopted. But this proposal is confined to cases of breaches of the rules under this Section. There is a statutory right put upon trade unions to carry out certain obligations and to make rules to secure that a man shall not be deprived of his benefits in consequence of refusing to contribute to a political fund. I propose to deal with two questions, one of law and the other of fact. With regard to the former no man is justified in asserting to the members of the Labour party that there is no danger whatever of actions being brought in the Law Courts to enforce these rules in the event of breach. I do not think any lawyer will venture to assert that. I say with the authority of my position and with a considerable amount of experience both in trade union litigation and in the Law Courts in other matters, although I do not think the j Courts would strain to get round the law, I do say that when a Court has made an order either against a trade union or against any other association or individuals, it will do its best as it ought to, to see that the order is enforced if the Court says the trade union had no right to expel a man and that it was a breach of the rules and that he ought to be reinstated, then if, in consequence of that order, the union does reinstate the man, but subsequently refuses to pay the benefit, then I say that the Court, by way of seeing that its order is not treated with contempt, would do what it ought to do. But I do not believe that any executive of a trade union would deliberately sit down and thus try to defeat an order of the High Court. Neither do I believe there is anything like danger of an enormous number of actions. Trade unions are not likely to do these things. Let me remind hon. Members that if a trade unionist has a grievance before he goes to the Registrar he has the right to put his case before his fellow trade unionists, and it is only when he has exercised that proper legitimate domestic right of appealing to his own court that he proceeds, if he still feels he has a grievance, not to the Courts of Law, but to the Registrar, who understands all these matters and who will decide the point in dispute. When a Registrar has decided I have no doubt the trade union will give effect to his decision. All that happens under this order is that you get some means of enforcing an order in case the trade union or the individuals concerned refuse to carry it out. It does not mean an action. It only means that the order shall not be mere waste paper, which it would' be if the Registrar had no means of enforcing his decision. There is not the slightest fear of any claim for damages such as has been suggested by the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. John Ward). That would indeed be a very dangerous power to grant to any man. All that happens here is that a man who says that he has been deprived of a benefit, say, of 15s. or 30s., in consequence of some action on the part of his executive, goes before the Registrar, who says, "I think he is right." In that case the money would be paid to the man and there would be an end to the whole matter.

    A person who is aggrieved and believes himself entitled to the 30s. will have lost time and incurred expenses in preparing his case. Would it I not be within the competence of the Registrar under these words to make such an order as he thinks just under the circumstances, and add the whole of the accruing costs to the first claim?

    I quite understand. The Registrar will be entitled to say, "This 30s. must be paid, and it has cost 5s. or 7s. 6d. to put your case before me," and you are paid your 7s. 6d. and it is done with. May I ask my hon. Friend, who has attended a good many meetings as delegate, or other functions as a member of a trade union, whether he was not quite properly paid his expenses?

    Let me make the matter quite clear. The right hon. Gentleman used the expression, "I think you are entitled to 30a. and that is what will be paid." I would point out that a good many 30s. could accrue upon the first one. The cost of coming to London from the provinces cannot be limited to 5s. There are a day's wages and other expenses that might very well involve going beyond the limit of 5s., so that it is not quite so easy a matter as the right hon. Gentleman states.

    If my hon. Friend takes that view he must put against it the other side. Let me put the other side. I will take a case with which I am familiar, and with which everybody in the House, or, at least, my hon. Friend is familiar. Take Houghton's case. He was a member of a trade union, and he was employed, that is the right word, to bring an action against the trade union, which resulted in many thousands of pounds expense, an action which ultimately culminated in the House of Lords, and which, as I know, and as my hon. Friend knows, resulted in another case which also went to the House of Lords. It is infinitely better, if there is such a dispute, that the Registrar should decide such a point as can arise under this Clause than that he should have to bring a law action.

    This is a very serious matter. Inasmuch as the right hon. Gentleman himself was of the opinion in Grand Committee that such a thing could not arise, will he explain how it is he now uses the expression "as can arise"?

    I regret that my hon. Friend was not here when I made my first speech to the House. He would have heard me explain all the circumstances. If he asks me that question I will explain again. This Amendment was on the Paper in the name of the hon Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson), and three other Members, to be discussed in Committee. Before the matter came up in Committee, I was asked a question—there is no necessity for any secrecy about it—by the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald). He asked me, as we were going into the Committee, whether I was quite clear that an action could not be brought to recover benefits. I said, "Oh, no, there is no fear of that." In consequence of that, these Amendments were dropped. What other circumstances occurred I do not know. Subsequently, in further discussion, it was pointed out to me that an action for restraining a union from expelling a member could undoubtedly be brought in the High Court, and if a union refused to pay benefits, after reinstatement, no doubt the Court could find some means for enforcing payment, although there is no precedent for it. If the hon. Member thought that in no circumstances an action could be brought under Clause 3 (c), he was mistaken. I never intended to say that, although I did say, and say now, that an action brought directly to enforce an agreement to pay benefits cannot be brought. That is not the same thing we have been discussing. Hon. Members said if that is the case they ought to be protected against injunctions of that kind and litigation of that character. That is the object of the Amendment, and they have moved the Amendment for that purpose. I assented to it, as I believe it carries out my purpose, and is really in the interests of trade unions and will put an end to all this kind of litigation.

    Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that if the Amendment is carried an aggrieved member will be prohibited from bringing an action for restoration to membership by means of an injunction?

    I think there is no doubt about it. The only jurisdiction that is given to the Registrar is with regard to a breach of Clause 3 as it now stands. The remedy will be given in the Statute in that Section, and if that is the case there is no doubt that the remedy which is given exhausts the remedies for any breach under that Section. Do net let us have a discussion whether or not it is so or will be so. I think it will be very useful to take the words we find in the Friendly Societies Act and adopt them. When the proper time comes, I suggest that my hon. Friend should move, or that someone should move, after the words in the Amendment "any such order," to insert the words "of the Registrar shall be' binding and conclusive on all parties without appeal and shall not be removable into a Court of Law or restrainable by injunction." I think that will do away with a good deal of my hon. and learned Friend's objection.

    I see that the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. S. Walsh) has now deserted the Labour party. I do not know whether he has become a convert to Liberalism, but I am quite sure he would be welcome. I think that some of my hon. Friends near me are rather playing not quite the game by the trade union movement in saying what they have said. What are the facts? In the whole course of my experience in dealing with trade unions I have never known a case in which the union has not given a man the benefits to which he is entitled. This Amendment only applies to men who form a small minority who dissent from paying the political contribution. I do not care what past legislation has been, what I do say is that if there was in any union men so tyrannical as to take a man's subscriptions and at the same time deprive him of the benefits to which he is legally entitled, in the name of common justice that man, whether a trade unionist or not, should have the right to see that justice is given to him. Therefore I think the Labour party are perfectly wise in accepting this Amendment because, although such cases have not come within my experience, I believe it is possible that some cases might occur. Instead of spending thousands and thousands of pounds out of their funds they have, under this Amendment, a ready means of obtaining justice at a minimum of cost. The hon. Member (Mr. Walsh) says what about the expenses that the member who is complaining will be put to if he has to enforce a claim against the union. I know cases where men have found money themselves to fight their unions, not in the High Court, but in a local Court. It is a common occurrence with men who dispute among themselves. Some people like litigation. But be that as it may, this is a reasonable Amendment and I can only say, as one who has always supported what I believe to be the legitimate aspirations of trade unions, the Amendment is wise in itself and is to the benefit of trade unions. It saves expense, it will do justice to everyone, and as to causing this great calamity which my hon. Friend speaks of it is a fear which has no reality, though no doubt it is a good stick to beat the Labour party with. Sometimes we want a stick on these benches to beat the Labour party.

    The hon. Member has spoken with his usual impartiality on this question. I want to show the effect of the discussion we have had upon this Amendment. At the beginning of the Debate the object was quite different from that which is now being presented to the House. We first heard of this Amendment in the discussion of the former Amendment, when the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lyttelton) said he would favourably consider the former Amendment if the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member (Mr. Wardle) were adopted. He said by the Amendment we are now discussing protection would be granted to dissenting members of trade unions. Apparently the attitude of the Unionist party at that time was that there was no safeguard for dissenting members, and it was on that footing that the Noble Lord seconded, the Amendment. He held that, apart from the introduction of this Amendment, there would be no protection for the conscientious objector who dissented from the majority who are in favour of political action. Now we find that the situation is altogether reversed, and that, apart from this Amendment, there was protection for the conscientious objector, and that every conscientious objector who felt himself aggrieved would have his ordinary remedy in the Law Courts. Now apparently the Unionist party, leaving their usual position of preserving the jurisdiction of the Law Courts, are going to put into the hands of an administrative officer the power of deciding what are essentially judicial questions, and are thereby going to be guilty of an inconsistency which is quite at variance with their usual attitude in this matter. It is now clear that the Unionist party are in this instance in favour of ousting the jurisdiction of the Law Courts is favour of an administrative officer, and we welcome this change of attitude on their part. I think, however, it has been a valuable discussion, for which we are indebted to the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Clement Edwards), and it has made clear that instead of being an alternative remedy which is granted by this Amendment, henceforth it will be the sole remedy which is open to the dissenting member, and that the decision of the Registrar will be final and binding, and as the jurisdiction of the Law Courts is ousted I think my hon. and learned Friend would do well to withdraw his Amendment.

    I beg to move in the proposed Amendment, after the word "order" ["and any such order on being recorded in the County Court"], to insert the words "of the Registrar shall be binding and conclusive on all parties without appeal, and shall not be removable into a Court of Law or rostrainable by injunction and."

    10.P.M.

    I gathered that the Attorney-General was doing something to make it perfectly clear that the alternative method of re-dress, an injunction to the Law Courts, would be shut out. These words, of course, would not do that. The decision of the Registrar is to be final, and you cannot move in any other Court with regard to that decision. The point I raised is that, in the first place, there are the two alternative remedies. Would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to accept words stating that this shall be the sole remedy for the aggrieved member? I do not think there can be the slightest doubt that if you have at the present moment a right to go into a Law Court for an injunction to restore to membership, and you use no words prohibiting that right, but you use words which suggest another method, you merely make these two methods of obtaining redress alternative. Will the right hon. hon. Gentleman be prepared to accept words which will make it perfectly clear that an aggrieved member has no right to go into the High Court for an injunction in connection with this Clause? I suggest some such words as these: "Provided that the method of redress set forth here shall be the only method of redress open to an aggrieved member."

    So far as I am concerned I am perfectly satisfied with the Amendment proposed by the Attorney-General. It meets our case absolutely, especially after the statement he made that this, being the redress now in the Clause itself, would be construed by any Court as being the only redress open to a member. Under these circumstances I believe our interest is entirely safeguarded.

    When I raised the objection that trade unionists had a strong desire to keep out of the Law Courts I felt, I think rightly, that there was a danger of a new court being created in addition to the present one. But the right hon Gentleman has given us the assurance that this shall be for all intents and purposes the only remedy that an aggrieved member can press under this Section. For any sense of grievance he may feel under the Clause this will be the proper remedy and that undoubtedly removes a great deal of the fear which, rightly or wrongly, I felt. I therefore withdraw my objection to the Amendment.

    Amendmen to proposed Amendment agreed to.

    Proposed words, as amended, inserted in the Bill.

    I beg to move, at end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words:—

    "A resolution under this Section approving political objects as an object of the union shall take effect as if it were a rule of the union and may be rescinded in the same manner and subject to the same provisions as such a rule."

    This is an Amendment to give effect to a promise I made in Committee that I would consider what was best to be done in order to carry out certain views of the trade unionists. I think this is the best way of protecting trade unionists.

    I think this Amendment entirely meets the point raised on the Committee stage, and I am very grateful to the Attorney-General for moving it.

    Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    I beg to move to insert the following words at the end of Subsection (2):—

    "(3) The provisions of this Act as to the application of the funds of a union for political purposes shall apply to a union which is in whole or in part an association or combination of other unions as if the members of that union were the individual members of the component unions and not the unions; but nothing in this Act shall prevent any such component union from collecting from any of their members who are not exempt on behalf of the association or combination any contributions to the political fund of the association or combination."

    This is rather an unimportant matter so far as the principle of the Bill is concerned, but in the administration of the Bill it would be very helpful to such organisation as that with which I am connected. The short point of the Amendment is that the Miners' Federation of Great Britain or any similar organisation shall be treated as one unit for balloting purposes under this Act. At present the Miners' Federation of Great Britain is the national organisation for miners, representing all the miners from one end of Scotland to the other end of Wales. Our political scheme is a national scheme upon all matters of a national character. The Miners' Federation, which is an organisation of organisations, is the dominating unit for all these national purposes. If this Amendment is not accepted by the House, it will mean that the constituent unions of the federation will have to take their own separate ballots, and as an organisation we should be in a state of chaos, disorganisation, and confusion. We are simply asking that for the purposes of this Bill the national organisation shall be treated as one unit.

    The hon. Member who proposed the Amendment said that this is a short point. It is a short point as he expresses it, but it is a very substantial point. It means that the provisions of the Bill will apply, not merely to separate trade unions, but will be extended to the political energies of trade unions in an aggregate form. In other words, it is frankly a Syndicalist Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Let us examine it. You have got your trade union movement to-day in three forms. You have, first of all, the problem of the individual union; secondly you have the national union of unions within a particular country; and thirdly, you have the world problem of international trade unionism. What does this Amendment mean? It means that not only may a particular trade union address itself to political objects for the purposes of that union, but that the union, being a unit in a larger aggregation of unions, may make its members, who are not exempt, act with the aggregate of unions. For my part I doubt if there is in the country at present a single union which would be within the language used in the Amendment.

    As a matter of fact, the Miners' Federation of Great Britain is so constituted, and does exactly the work which we are asking to be allowed to do within the terms of the Amendment.

    Supposing a union is in a federation or group of unions, the members of the individual union would have to express their mind not only with respect to the objects of the individual union, but of the federation of unions. But you also get in the modern developments of trade unions combinations of trade unions which are representative of different kinds of unions. That is a point which certainly must be kept in mind, having regard to the fact that, in ascertaining the mind of your individual union, you have also to ascertain the mind of the federation of unions, if it is in the federation. What advantage do you get in ascertaining the views of the aggregate of unions, instead of the individual opinions held by the members of one union? If this Amendment is accepted, I see that in a veiled way a very dangerous proposal will be grafted on this Bill. The hon. Member was well advised to call it a short point. It seems to me it has all the elements of a dangerous point which ought not to be determined off-hand or lightly in a few moments of Parliamentary time at the end of a long discussion. It is an Amendment which was never discussed in Committee at all. It is introduced now at the fag-end of the Report stage, without a word of discussion, and I-frankly tell the House that it would be very ill-advised, having regard to the nature of its language, to allow it to be grafted upon the Bill.

    I think a great deal of the fear of the hon. and learned Gentleman as to the result of this Amendment is because we have not had an opportunity of discussing it in Committee, and I dare say he may not have noticed it on the Paper before. I do not say that it is of no importance, but I do say that it carries out the whole principle of the Bill. What the hon. and learned Member did not bear in mind is that there are federations, associations, or combinations which are in themselves trade unions, and which have as their component members other trade unions, so that, if the hon. and learned Member follows me, assuming you have a federation of trade unions, which is a trade union and which consists of twelve trade unions—those are the members of the union—

    If the federation of trade unions is a trade union itself it is already covered by the language of the Bill.

    I am not satisfied that it is. I think that my hon. and learned Friend is quite right in saying that it is intended to be covered. Suppose in the federation to which I have referred, all twelve trade unions have ballotted for political objects and three of them declare against and nine for, observe that in that trade union you have no opportunity whatever of allowing the man who wants to pay, the member of the trade union which has declared by a majority against payment, to pay through his trade union machinery to the federation. If you have a number of individuals, and some are for and some are against claiming exemption the trade union cannot split itself into those who are willing to pay and those who are not willing to pay unless we have a Clause of this kind. That is why it is introduced and we have taken care to say, that although nothing shall prevent the machinery of the union being used for the collection of money to pay to the federation, at the same time it always remains for the executive to determine whether it will or will not. It is necessary to do this in order to legalise what was intended in the first Clauses of the Bill which we have passed, certainly under Clause 3, and in order to give the right to any man to pay if he wants to pay through the trade union.

    I did not follow the Amendment as drafted, and I would ask the learned Attorney-General to consider the exact words in which it is proposed. The Amendment says, "as if the members of that union were the individual members of the component unions." I do not follow what that means. If the members of the federation were the individual members of' the component unions, then you would have to take a ballot of the whole of the members of the component union. The result would be that if you want the federation to go in for political objects, you would, first of all, have your ballot of the individual members of the component union, and, having got that, you would then have to deal with individual members of the component union. I thought that was what you did not want.

    It seems to me that these words will not carry that out, because they have to apply as if the members of that union—that is the federation in the case we have taken—were all individual members of the component unions. If the members of the federation were individual members of the component unions you would have to take a second ballot of the members of the compone unions for the purposes of the federation. I thought the Attorney-General agreed with me, but the hon. Member who moved the Amendment docs not agree with me; that is what he wants to avoid. I do not know which it is. The Attorney-General says the true construction is that which the hon. Member wishes to avoid.

    In the federation the question is whether the federation should engage in political activity. You have to take a ballot of the federation. In the ordinary course you have to take a ballot of twelve component unions which are members of the federation. By this Clause, instead of doing that, you take a ballot of the individual members who form the component unions to decide whether or not they are to engage in political activity. My hon. and learned Friend is right in saying that when you have done that and got a majority for the federation, it does not follow that the individual unions can themselves, apart from the federation, engage in political activity without another ballot.

    Let me clearly understand it. May I take, first of all, the federation? Suppose you have twelve unions in the federation, and that the federation is a union within the meaning of the Act, and that the twelve unions, each of them separately, has a ballot of its members for the purpose of determining whether or not each union shall go in for political activity, and suppose that nine say "Yes" and three "No," then the next question is, Can the federation go in for political activity? You have then to have a second ballot of the individual members of the twelve component unions, and then you have to determine on that ballot whether the federation can go in for political activity. Let me call the attention of the Attorney-General to the words—

    "The provisions of this Act as to the application of the funds of a union for political purposes shall apply to a union which is in whole or in part an association or combination of other unions as if the members of that union were the individual members of the component unions."

    That is as if the members of the federation were individual members of the component union. You would then have to have a ballot of the individual members of the component union in order to determine whether the federation could go in for political activity or not.

    Apply it to this case. You have, first of all, a ballot taken of the twelve unions separately and it does not matter what the result, you then want to consider whether the federation is to go in for political activity, and then you have to have a second ballot of the individual members of the component unions, because the federation is to be treated for this purpose as if it were not a federation of component unions, but as if the members of the federation were the individual members of the component unions. There is no doubt you would have to have a second ballot. It seems to me that ought to be put right. It is not clear as the Amendment stands. What I have suggested is I understand what hon. Members opposite wish to avoid. I am quite sure as the Amendment stands at present the result will be that which I have suggested. I quite agree that is not the result desired.

    The point I think will be met by inserting the words, and I suggest we take it "as if the individual members of the component unions were the members of that union and not the unions."

    I think that would more accurately express what we desire, and I think we shall accept those words in preference to the words on the Paper. Let me try and explain to the hon. and learned Gentleman what we do mean. We want only one vote to be taken and on that vote being taken over the whole federation, or combination, or association, we want all the printing and all the necessary arrangements for that vote being taken, done at one centre, and circulated throughout the whole dozen or whatever number there may be of trade unions; so that for the purpose of carrying on this political work the whole federation is taken as the union and not any one of the component unions. That is, in brief, what we want. When the vote has been taken we want further that the majority of the aggregate vote taken over the whole twelve unions should determine the political action of the whole of the unions, or of any one of them. That is to say, in the event of three of the unions having decided, if their votes were taken separately, against political action, those unions shall be determined in their action not by the sectional vote, but by the vote taken over the whole federation. That is what we are aiming at. I admit that the words in the Amendment are rather awkward; those suggested by the Attorney-General are an improvement, and I should wish to accept them.

    I think that hon. Members opposite, who were rather indignant at his intervention, ought to be exceedingly grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for pointing out the flaw in the drafting of the Amendment. I am not a lawyer, and we laymen have to accept what the lawyers tell us as to the effect of these words. [HON. MEMBKIIS: "NO."] I for one profoundly sympathise with the object the hon. Member has in moving the Amendment. As I have said previously, provided the money is contributed willingly, it ought certainly to be spent according to the desire of the trade unions, and for either House to interfere with the spending of such money would be an unjustifiable interference. If hon. Members opposite think that they can more efficiently manage their political busienss by means of federation, this House ought not to stand in their way.

    I am perfectly clear that the Amendment, even as amended by the Attorney-General, will not carry out the views of the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division, and those are the views I want to see carried out.

    May I, by permission of the House, add another word? There is a danger if you leave the words as they are. Hon. Members desire that a federation of unions should be treated as a unit. It ought, then, to be made clear that the individual unions must not, for this purpose, be treated as units; other- wise you may have an unfair alternative. Suppose there are a dozen unions federated, and that seven of them, with a majority in the aggregate, are in favour of political action, while five are against. It would be manifestly to the advantage of the federated unions that the aggregate vote should be taken. But suppose the case was the other way, and that the larger number of unions were against. It ought not to be possible to take it both ways. It ought not to be left to chance or expediency either to treat the federated unions as the unit or to treat the component unions as units. The component unions should be eliminated as units for this purpose, or you would make it possible for the question to be decided either by the aggregate of the federation, or by simply taking individual unions which were favourable, while the aggregate vote was hostile. If the Attorney-General desires to be fair he should add some such words as, "and the component unions shall not be deemed to be unions for the purposes of this provision." I think it ought to be made perfectly clear, otherwise you may get the alternative condition of the federated unions, as a whole, getting a majority in favour of political action, or taking singly the component unions, as a whole, the majority may not be in favour of political action.

    This, I think, is a very important point, and I think it ought to be quite clearly settled.

    May I further point out to the Attorney-General that if you have both the combination or the component unions as an alternative—and in every speech it has been assumed that the twelve unions are numerically equal—it is perfectly possible that a minority of the unions might be a majority of the total unions. In that case you would have hopeless confusion. From that point of view, unless we adopt the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Norman Craig), we shall have confusion in a matter that can be perfectly easily expressed so as to avoid complication, the unions also being taken into consideration.

    As I read this Amendment, the effect of it is that if the federation wishes to engage in political activity there will have to be taken a ballot of the unions that form the federation, and all the individual members of the unions will vote as to whether or not the federation shall so engage: that is what is desired. That undoubtedly this Clause will do. The other point raised is that the vote does not entitle the individual unions—taking the figure 12— does not entitle each of those unions, without anything further, to engage in political activities—that is to say, having political objects as part of their constitution, apart altogether from the federation. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] In my view it does not—

    The hon. and learned Gentleman is quite wrong. The whole point of doing it in this way is that we should not bind individual unions as regards their own affairs on political objects. Take five component unions who do not wish to be bound. The executive of those unions may refuse to use the political machinery for collecting the levy and nothing you could do would compel them to do it.

    The point I want an answer on is this. As I read the Amendment, unless it is altered, it produces this result, that a trade federation in the aggregate aims first of all at taking a majority in favour of political purposes from the aggregate of the union. If it gets a majority of the aggregate then the whole of the unions are devoted to political purposes. If it cannot do that, as I understand it, then what it does is to disregard the federal idea altogether and to take the individual unions then voting, although they are in a minority of the aggregate, and to impose political purposes on them.

    I want an answer to my question. Will the Attorney-General kindly give me an answer? The question is a simple one. What I want to know is this. In an aggregate of twelve unions, if seven vote in favour of federation and five against it is quite clear the majority would rule; but if the majority is the other way about, can the five unions then as an entity contribute towards political purposes? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] If they cannot they ought to be entitled to. Take, for example, the Miners' Federation. They have always been out-voted by other unions until now. It may be they would say they wanted to contribute to political purposes. I say after they have joined the federation they ought to be entitled to do as they like with their money. Have they that right, or not under the Clause? The Attorney-General shakes his head, but I want an answer, "Yes" or "No."

    This matter, if not properly settled, will go to the Law Courts. I suppose the object of the Labour party is not to invite the intervention of the Law Courts. The matter is very complicated, and in order to give more time for its consideration I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

    I rise to second the Motion. This is a very difficult point; it was not mentioned on the Second Beading or in the Committee. It now comes up on Report stage, and presents a practical difficulty. We want to make the point quite clear, and I think the matter would be better solved by adjourning it at the moment, and it can be dealt with in two or three minutes when the Debate is again resumed.

    We all realise that there is a single desire to express what we want in proper terms, and I do not think we are in a position which requires an adjournment. I cannot discuss the merits of the Amendment on this Motion, but I may say that you may have an individual union which from one point of view is a member of a federation, and from another point of view has an existence of its own, and unless I am misinformed you may have an individual union which as an individual union takes an interest in local work. I do not think anybody who is prepared to accept the principle of this Bill will deny that such an individual union ought to be entitled to exercise the power within its own area for its own purposes. That is not what this Clause is aimed at. If we keep these two separate things in mind we shall get words quite apt, and I hope the hon. Member will withdraw his Motion. I think it is desirable while the House has this question thoroughly in its mind to dispose of the matter.

    I am quite willing to withdraw my Motion if it is the wish of the House. I ask leave to withdraw.

    Motion for Adjournment by leave, withdrawn.

    Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to omit the words "the members of that union were."

    Further Amendment to the proposed Amendment—After the word "unions" ["as if the individual members of the component unions"], insert the words "were the members of that union"—put, and agreed to.

    I will now read the Amendment as amended:—

    (3) The provisions of this Act as to the application of the funds of a union for political purposes shall apply to a union which is in whole or in part an association or combination of other unions as if the individual members of the component unions were the members of that union, and not the unions, but nothing in this Act shall prevent any such component union from collecting from any of their members who are not exempt on behalf of the association or combination any contributions to the political fund of the association or combination.

    May I point out that the right hon. Gentleman the Solicitor-General asked us to withdraw the Motion for the adjournment of the Debate on the ground that he and the Attorney-General were trying to find words which "would meet the difficulty suggested from this side, a suggestion directed to improve the practical working of the Bill? We withdrew the Motion, relying upon the right hon. Gentleman's statement. Are we to understand now that the Motion has been withdrawn, that the two Law Officers are going to proceed and allow this Amendment to be put without further observation or suggestion from them as to the words that would meet the difficulty?

    Let me just state as clearly as I can what I understand to be the object at which we are aiming, because I submit the Amendment in the form in which it has now been put from the Chair really meets the difficulty. You have got to bear in mind two things. A workman may, on the one hand, be a member of an individual union and may, as a member of that individual union, have responsibilities to it, and his individual union may have certain interests which may include political and municipal interests as well as what are ordinarily called trade union interests. On the other hand, because he is a member of that individual union, and because that individual union in its turn is a member of a great federation, he has an interest in the federation. What I understand the Amendment, as it is now drafted and phrased, to do is this: It leaves the position of the workman, so far as regards his membership of the individual union, under the general terms of the Bill; it does not affect it in the least. On the other hand, so far as the federation is concerned—say, the Miners' Federation, which consists of many trade unions—it says, if you want to answer "Aye" or "No" "may the Miners' Federation engage in political action?" it must be determined by a majority of the votes taken from all the workmen who are directly or indirectly members of the federation. I do not think the hon. and learned Gentleman differs from what I am now saying, though he may possibly dispute whether it is a wise provision.

    You are using your individual units to try to get a majority which binds the whole federation, even the minority, and then you are taking by the latter words of this Amendment liberty to bind individual units in favour of political action, though as regards the federation as a whole they are in a minority. You are using people to bind the whole federation of unions if you can, and, if you cannot bind the whole federation of unions, you are taking the individual component unions and binding them. Manifestly, to use a vulgarism, that is getting it both ways.

    I do not want there to be any misunderstanding as to what is in the opinion of us all the effect of these words. The effect I suggest is this. Let me suppose you have got a federation which consists of twelve individual unions, A, B, C, and so on. The question whether or not that federation and the funds of that federation, may engage in political action is to be determined by a majority of the votes of all the workmen who belong to the federation, whatever be the particular trade union, A, B, C, or D, to which they individually belong. I do not see why the answer to that question should be conclusive one way or the other as to the question whether the workmen who belong to trade union A should, in respect of trade union A, find themselves as belonging to a trade union A which does or does not engage in political action. Supposing your federation is the Miners' Federation, and supposing it consists of trade unions, one of which is located in Wales,—another located in Yorkshire, and still another in Scotland, I can quite imagine that the result of the ballot will be there will be no majority in the whole federation for political action, and therefore there will be no right in the Miners' Federation to use the funds of the federation for political purposes. But I cannot see why that should deprive the miners in Yorkshire—if they have a majority in favour of so doing in the Yorkshire Union—of the power of applying the funds of that union to help to elect a man to the town council—say of Bradford.

    It is not merely for municipalities. This is an important point—less important to me than to hon. Members below the Gangway opposite. But the hon. and learned Gentleman is looking at it purely from the point of view of the component union that is in favour of political purposes. Will he look at it from the point of view of the component union which is not? If the component union is in favour and the aggregate of unions is not in favour, whatever happens, the component union has freedom to work politically. But if the component union is net in favour of political action, while the aggregate of unions are, the component union is swamped by the federation, and has political purposes imposed on it.

    The hon. and learned Gentleman from one point of view may be quite right in his diagnosis, but ho forgets that you must distinguish between those contributions which are made for the purposes of the federation and those which are local and which are made for the purposes of the individual union. It is not true that these two things are the same. If you are going to accept the principle of this Bill I cannot for the life of me see why if you get a majority of the workmen in individual unions to say that they want to have a political fund they should not be allowed to do so, even although the other unions in the federation take a different view with regard to political action. What is happening is that you are saying that so far as local unions are concerned political action shall depend on whether there are a majority of the members in favour of it; but that has nothing to do with the question whether the whole federaion has the right to exercise its powers. That has to be determined by the views of the majority of the members in the federation itself. We are agreed as to the effect of the Clause, and I submit that this is a perfectly fair and logical way of carrying out its objects.

    11.0 P.M.

    I hope my hon. Friend (Mr. Norman Craig) will not press this to a Division, because when he says this Amendment is letting the unions have it both ways, he is ignoring the fact that if the safeguards for the minority are efficient the minorities are also having it both ways, too. That is the crux of the whole situation. It is because I believe that the Labour party have now agreed to an Amendment which does give the minority a safeguard, and lets them appeal to a tribunal, that I think the safeguards in the Bill are worth having. Therefore it is right to let the unions have it both ways if they like, because if the minority can enforce these safeguards in a Court of Law, which is practically what they can do, then the minority is having it both ways as well.

    Question, "That the words, as amended, be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    Clause 4—(Provision For Ballot)

    A ballot for the purposes of this Act shall be taken in accordance with rules to be made by the union for the purpose, but the Registrar of Friendly Societies shall not approve any such rules unless he is satisfied that every member has an equal right and, if reasonably possible, a fair opportunity of voting, and that the secrecy of the ballot is properly secured.

    Amendments made: Leave out the words "to be made by" ["in accordance with rules to be made by the union"], and insert instead thereof the word "of."

    After the word "union" ["rules to be made by the union"], insert the words "to be approved."

    After the word "purpose" ["made by the union for the purpose"], insert the words "whether the union is registered or not, by the Registrar of Friendly Societies."—[ Sir Bufus Isaacs.]

    Clause 5—(Notice Of Unwillingness To Contribute Towards Political Objects)

    (1) A member of a trade union may at any time give notice, in the form set out in the Schedule to this Act or in a form to the like effect, that he is unwilling to contribute to the political fund of the union, and on the adoption of a resolution of the union approving the furtherance of political objects as an object of the union notice shall be given to the members of the union acquainting them that each member has a right to be exempt from contributing to the political fund of the union, and that a form of exemption notice can be obtained by or on behalf of a member either by application at or by post from the head office or any branch office of the union or the office of the Registrar of Friendly Societies.

    Any such notice to members of the union shall be given in accordance with rules of the union approved for the purpose by the Registrar of Friendly Societies, having regard in each case to the existing practice and to the character of the union.

    (2) On giving notice in accordance with this Act of unwillingness to contribute, a member of the union shall be exempt, so long as his notice is not withdrawn, from contributing to the political fund of the union as from the 1st day of January next after the notice is given, or, in the case of a notice given within one month after the notice given to members under this Section on the adoption of a resolution approving the furtherance of political objects, as from the date on which the member's notice is given.

    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "is unwilling" ["that he is unwilling to contribute"], and insert instead thereof the word "objects."

    In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "unwillingness" ["of unwillingness to contribute"], and insert instead thereof the words "his objection."—[ Mr. Gill]

    Schedule

    Form of Exemption Notice.

    Name of Trade Union

    Political Fund (Exemption Notice).

    I hereby give notice that I am unwilling to contribute to the Political Fund of the Union, and am in consequence exempt, in manner provided by the Trade Union Act, 1912, from contributing to that fund.

    A.B.

    Address

    day of 19

    Amendment made: Leave out the words "am unwilling" ["I am unwilling to contribute"], and insert instead thereof the word "object."—[ Mr. Gill.]

    Bill to be read the third time upon Friday next (31st January) [Bill 358.]

    The Orders for the remaining Government business were read, and postponed.

    Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 14th October, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

    Business Of The House

    I wish to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can make a statement about the business tomorrow and on Friday?

    Tomorrow, after the discussion on the Motion to allocate time on Report to the Established Church (Wales) Bill, we propose to take the Second Reading of the Railways Bill.

    On Friday, after the Third Reading of the Trade Unions Bill, we hope to take the Report of the Committee on Vacation of Seat (Member holding contract).

    Increment Value Duty (Builders' Profits)

    I desire to raise a point arising out of a question asked by the hon. Member (Mr. Royds) on Wednesday last. My hon. Friend asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer—

    "whether, in view of Mr. Justice Horridge's recent decision in the case of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue v Lumsden, whereby payment of Increment Value Duty was directed to he made on a builder's profit and where there had admittedly been no rise in the value of the site, he will introduce legislation to indemnify owners of houses and land against liability for payment of Increment Value Duty in cases where there has been no rise in the value of the site since 30th April, 1909?
    "Mr. Lloyd George: Payment of Increment Value Duty was due on the case referred to in the question because the builder realised a price considerably in excess of the combined market value of the laud and the building erected by him. In estimating the increment value full allowance was made for the value of the house, including builder's profits; and the excess of price over value was in the nature of a fortuitous windfall, which under the Statute is liable to taxation I do not propose to introduce amending legislation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd January, 1913, cols. 406–7.]
    The point which I propose to raise is not the effect or the legality of this judgment, as the matter will probably come before the Court of Appeal. I desire merely to state the facts and to quote certain definite pledges and statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to compare those statements with the claims which are now made under his directions, and to ask him how he proposes to make his pledges good. The facts are that a builder, a Mr. Lumsden, of Newcastle, erected a house during the year 1909 upon a plot of land which he had purchased, and the house and land were subsequently valued at a total of £625. Mr. Lumsden, like many thousands of others, not understanding the consequences of not objecting, made no objections within the statutory sixty days, and that £625 became statutorily fixed and incapable of alteration as the value of the premises. He sold the house and land three months later for £750, on which the Commissioners served him with a notice of £125 of increment, and claimed Increment Value Duty of £22. The case came before a Referee, and has recently come before the High Court, and the material point is that in the evidence it was stated, and it was definitely accepted by the Crown, both in the High Court and before the Referee, that the site upon which the house stood, the bare land, had not altered by a halfpenny, but the builder had sold the house and land together at a profit, and the claim of the Crown was that the builder's profit, being in the nature of a fortuitous profit, came under the head of increment, and was chargeable with Increment Value Duty. That is the claim which is made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the reply to my hon. Friend, and that is how the matter stands.

    I desire to place before the House the definite pledges and statements which were made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to how Increment Value Duty was to be charged at the time the Act was passed. First of all, I will say that nobody can produce a single statement made during the passage of the Bill which indicates that there was any intention on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Government to charge Increment Value Duty upon profits. The whole ground and basis for the charge of Increment Duty was that it was only to be charged on that part of the increase on the bare land which was attributable to the growth and action of the community, and that the object was to specially guard the subject against any levy of duty upon profits apart from any increase in the value of the bare land due to the growth of the community. But in the course of the passage of the Bill, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer will very well remember, there was a shifting of the Clauses. In the Bill, as originally introduced, the deduction on the "occasion" and the original deductions were repeated verbatim. That was departed from at a later stage, and it was anticipated on this side of the House that that might give rise to some claim of this kind, and the then Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Balfour) raised that very point. He then received assurances in this House, which I have not time to quote in full, but which are well known to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They have recently been stated in the Press. I desire now to quote the definite statements which have been made in writing by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this very point. I have here three definite statements by the right hon. Gentleman, and I will take them in chronological order. The first was written to the hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Alden) on 28th October, 1909. It is signed "D. Lloyd George," and the first sentence is quite sufficient for me. It is in these terms:—
    "Unless the bare value, of the land, apart from anything done to it in the meantime, had risen while the house was being constructed, he would not be taxed at all."
    If that is not plain language, I do not know what is. The second letter was written to Mr. Lowell on 5th December, 1910, and in that letter, which is signed by "R. G. Hawtrey," he says:—
    "I am desired by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to inform you that in the case quoted by the solicitor, if the house was built and cost £400 on a site worth £100, and was sold for £600,"—
    a case absolutely parallel to this one in every particular—
    "not merely is it a complete mistake to suppose that duty will be payable on the sale price for the site value, subject to the 10 per cent, allowance, but duty would not even be payable on the builder's profit. From the price of £000 obtained on sale there would be deducted not merely the cost price of the house, but the whole value attributable to the house, unless there were extraneous causes tending to produce an increase in the value of the bare site."
    No such causes are alleged in this case—

    Is the hon. Member at liberty on a bare statement in a case still sub judice to ask the House to go into the question of what may be decided hereafter?

    The hon. Member is calling attention to what was said in this House or during the passage of the Bill. I do not see anything out of order in that.

    In this case it is admitted that there has been no increase in the value of the bare site at all.

    "The amount attributable to the value of the house would be the whole additional sum of £500,"
    What could be plainer than that? The third letter is dated 22nd December, 1910, and is signed "W. H. Clarke," and begins,
    "I am directed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer."
    Here is the point:—
    "If when you sell your properly, the value of the bare land has not increased over the corresponding value on the 30th of April, 1909, the Increment Value Duty would not be payable."
    Here is a case where it was admitted in the Referees Court on behalf of the Crown, when the Solicitor-General was present, that the value of the bare land had not increased. If the quotation is wanted I have it here:—
    "Mr. Stanley then called Mr. Howell Davies, deputy chief valuer for England and Wales, who gave evidence in favour of the Commissioners assessment accepting the effect of the valuation as on April 30th. 1909, and as on the occasion of the sale. He stated that in his opinion there had been no rise in the value of the land, but he thought that nevertheless the amount of Increment Duty had been correctly ascertained."
    That is the evidence before the Referee. There was no rise in the value of the land, and yet Increment Value Duty was payable. Of course, obviously that builder had proceeded knowing the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    "If, when you sell your property, the value of the bare land has not increased over the corresponding value on the 30th of April, 1909, the Increment Value Duty would not be payable."
    Yet a claim is made on behalf of the Chancellor of the Exchequer now by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, in direct opposition to the statement which was made to the builders, and to these correspondents in the letters written by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I could say a great deal upon the consequences of these claims, but in the half-hour which we have I confine myself to the point, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made to the building trade and to the country definite statements, and those statements were in consonance with all the statements made on behalf of the Government when the Bill was passing through its various stages. One more point: When all these letters were written on 21st January, 1911, we found the origin of these claims. The origin of those claims was the Instruction laid upon the Table of the House, and issued to the Revenue Department of the Inland Revenue Commissioners. In that Instruction these words occur:—
    "By this method—"
    —that is the method of valuation prescribed—
    "the following results should be obtained: Increment value should he collectable in all cases where the unit of valuation or the interest therein has actually been sold for more than its worth at the time."
    That is the claim. It amounts to this, that the House was told, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer's correspondents were told, that the Increment Value Duty would be levied on the actual increase of the bare land due to the growth of the community. The Increment Value Duty is actually being claimed, and the price at which the property is sold differs from the figure which the Commissioners have fixed as its value. It is an absolutely different proposition from, and absolutely contrary to, the statement made when the Bill was introduced, and absolutely contrary to the pledge, which I have said was made to the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I only ask now that the Chancellor of the Exchequer shall fulfil his pledges, and if the Law Officers advise him that the law allows him to withdraw this claim, which has never been authorised by the House of Commons—it is an official ramp, if I may use the expression—then the Chancellor of the Exchequer should amend this Instruction and should levy the duty upon the value of the bare land. If the law cannot be amended, I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is prepared now—his words have been quoted— to make good the pledge which he gave, and to bring the law into accordance with the statement he made in the House, and the pledges he has given since?

    When I had to answer a similar charge last July, the charge was a somewhat different one— differing in character, though emphasised with similar violence. The hon. Member then stated that we were levying the tax against the authority of Parliament. He stated that we had given instructions to the Inland Revenue authorities behind the Act passed by this House and against the Act passed by this House. We then pleaded that the case was sub judice, but he was confident that the Land Union was going to obtain a victory, and brushed aside that plea. The authorities of Somerset House, he said, were levying taxes that were never authorised by this House.

    In face of the judgment you have received and examined, and the pleadings which were advanced by your union? I thought in this House the judges' verdicts stood without challenge until they were upset, and I am amazed that the hon. Gentleman should come down to this House and declare, in view of that serious judgment, that he still believes the judge is absolutely wrong in his law.

    I made no such statement as that. I imagine it would have been out of order. Of course it is not for me to decide what is a point of Order; I leave that to the Chair, but I never thought of making such a statement. I carefully guarded myself against saying one word about the judgment. My statement was absolutely the same as that I made before, namely, that the House had never knowingly authorised any such tax as this, and that the wording of the Statute was based upon—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order."]

    The hon. and gallant Gentleman never said anything of the kind. He never said the House never knowingly authorised. He said that the considered determination of one of the judges of the High Court was associated with an official ramp done by the Inland Revenue. I have some experience of the hon. and gallant Gentleman in controversy, and I think sometimes when he makes charges he really does not know what he says. What are the facts of this case?

    We had not the advantage of the criticism of the hon. Gentleman who interrupts when the Bill was being passed through Parliament. Therefore I may suggest that my remembrance of what did actually happen is fresher than that of the hon. Gentleman.

    I would appeal to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and anyone else who was present during these long Debates will remember that there were changes in the Bill, there was a shifting of Clauses from place to place, and alterations made as the result of criticisms, but I on this one point there never was, from the day the Bill was introduced until it was passed, any doubt on the point now challenged, never any doubt at all as to how we measured Increment Value Duty. The method by which you obtained the subject matter of that Increment Value Duty was to subtract from the money actually paid, that is the consideration, the total value which is attributable to the building on the land at the time of the event.

    The hon. Gentleman occupied a good deal of time, and he has referred outside and in the Press to what he calls alterations which were made in connection with speeches made by Lord Robson in connection with criticisms of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. I remember the Debate at the time, and I have refreshed my memory. The references which he has given are utterly irrelevant to the point at issue, and the changes which were made in the Act, now embodied in the Act, in response to the appeal made by the right hen. Gentleman the Member for the City— changes which dealt with the point utterly unaffected by the question of whether you deduct from the consideration the value attributable to the buildings. What the right hon. Gentleman said was that in your first estimate of value you estimate the value of the building, in your second estimate of value you estimate the value attributable to the building. He said those might be quite different entities. Lord Robson agreed and said it would not be fair because you might be taxing builders' profits, which we did not intend to tax, and do not tax. Therefore ho promised that the like deduction should be made in one case as the other, and that if you deduct the value attributable to the buildings in the one case you do the same in the other. That change was made in the Act, and that is the change under which the authorities of the Inland Revenue are working. The hon. and gallant Gentleman says that we are taxing builders' profits. He says that the promise which has been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that all value which can be attributable to the buildings at the time the land and building together are sold, has not been deducted. He suggested to the House that in that very case, which he says now is in the Court of Appeal, profit made by the builder has been taxed or claimed to be taxed by the Inland Revenue. Nothing could be further from the facts than that. The cost of the building was estimated at a certain sum and put in at a certain sum. A claim was made by the builder for a value attributable to the building very much greater than the cost of the building, legitimate builders' profits due to the skill and foresight of the builder. I have got the actual figures here. Though the actual cost of the building was only some £280, our valuers allowed on the claim of the builder a value attributable to the building of £430. That was very nearly twice as much. The statement that the hon. Member has allowed to go forth in the Press that we only deduct the builder's cost of building when we come to estimate the proportion which ought to be the right subject of Increment Value Duty is an absolute travesty of the facts. What we say is that we give the builder all the value of the profits which are attributable to the building. That is subtracted from the consideration, which is the actual cash in his hands. That was explained by my right hon. Friend in the very first speech he delivered on the Budget. That is what we learned to know in the debates as the Frankfort system: that is, to proceed on the cash in hand rather than on an ad hoc valuation, at the time. All that under the Act—and I have not the slightest doubt it cannot be challenged in law—is the legitimate subject for Increment Value Duty, is that which remains after you have taken away from the price realised the full value there and then attributable to the building on the site.

    Let me give one or two examples of what might happen. Take a site valued at £100 and a house built on the site costing £500 to build. That is put on the original valuation of the house and site together at £600. Suppose that is sold for £700, that is £100 more. The question then arises: Of that increase how much is attributable to the building? All that increase, as my right hon. Friend said, in 99 cases out of 100 is attributable to the building. It is due to the builder having the foresight and skill to build a building which, apart from the land, has gone up in value. In that case the value attributable to the building is put in at £600 instead of £500. The subtraction is only £100, and no Increment Value Duty at all is charged. The builder has his legitimate profit. Take another case. I am not sure that the figures are quite accurate, but the case very much resembles that which has been disputed in the I inferior Court. A number of houses are situated in a terrace. They are all exactly similar, valued at £500 each, and £100 for the site, £500 being the price upon which Death Duties would be paid, and £500 being the value which any valuer in the town, if called in, would give as the value of every one of those houses. The case I have in mind was the case where one house was adjacent to a nursing home, and it was necessary for the extension of the nursing home that the house should be bought by the home. Although the value of the house as put in for Death Duties would have been £500, the composite subject as bought by the nursing home is bought for £700. There is no builder's profit there. There is a monopoly value held by the builder as against one individual, and not as between a willing seller and a willing buyer. You may say that that is not strictly the value of the site. That is the criticism the hon. Gentleman makes upon my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But it is not the value of the building; it is not value attributable to the building; it is not the value of the builder's profits. It is a windfall on the site as much as on the building—perhaps more on the site than on the building. It is a legitimate subject for taxation. It was explained for seven months in this House, and it is the subject we are discussing at the present time.

    It being half an hour after the conclusion of Government business, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put.

    Adjourned at Twenty-five minutes before Twelve o'clock.