Skip to main content

Written Answers

Volume 54: debated on Monday 30 June 1913

The text on this page has been created from Hansard archive content, it may contain typographical errors.

Written Answers

National Insurance Act

Amending Bill

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what friendly societies were consulted in drawing up the Bill to amend the National Insurance Act; and whether the provisions of that Bill have been framed with due regard to the defects which have been found in practice by the friendly societies to exist in the original Act?

In preparing the Amending Bill the Insurance Commissioners and myself invited to conferences the chief representatives of all types of approved societies. On 5th May (the date which has been announced by a clerical error as 6th June) we conferred with a number of representative officials of friendly societies, including the president, the ex-president, the vice-president, and the secretary of the National Conference, of Friendly Societies (one of whom was a director and Parliamentary agent of the Manchester Unity of Oddfellows). On 1st May we conferred with representatives of trade unions, on 6th June with representatives of women's trade unions, on 18th June with further representatives of women's interests, and on 23rd June with representatives of Holloway Dividing and Deposit Societies. We also invited suggestions from the industrial assurance companies, and other conferences and frequent communications on particular points have been held with officials of approved societies. At all these conferences suggested amendments to the Act were fully discussed. The conferences were necessarily limited to a few persons, and were confidential in character, for I have had to remember that the House of Commons desires that proposals for new legislation shall not be given publicity before they have been submitted to the House.

Sanatorium Benefit

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the number of people suffering from consumption who, though they were not able to work at the time of the passage of the Act and who are not dependent on any insured persons, as many of them are unmarried people without any friends or-families, such as father or mother living, and in such districts where the county councils have not nor will not put their powers to deal with such cases into operation; and will some provision be made to meet the needs of these people?

An insurance committee has no statutory powers to arrange for the treatment of tuberculous persons other than insured persons and their dependents, and if the county councils do not avail themselves of their powers to provide for such cases, the insurance committee is unable to take any steps in the matter.

Devon County Council (Motor Traffic)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that at the meeting of the Devon County Council on the 19th instant an increased county rate of 6d, in the £ had to be levied; that the increased cost of the main roads for the year was £12,000; and, seeing that this increase is necessitated by motor traffic, will he arrange that the Devon and other county councils should receive the whole of the revenue arising from carriage and motor-car licences instead of only part as at present?

The proposal in the question would involve legislation which the Government are not prepared to introduce. I may point out, however, that the balance of the proceeds of carriage and motor-car licences not retained bycounties is paid over to the Road Improvement Fund.

Road Board

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount of money handed over to the Road Board in 1912–13, and how much was allocated by the Board to London in that year?

The total amount paid into the Road Improvement Fund from His Majesty's Exchequer during the years 1912–13 was £1,172,205. 'The Board do not allocate money to London, but make advances by way of grant and loan on applications from individual Highway authorities. The aggregate of such advances made and indicated to Highway authorities within the Administrative County of London in the financial year 1912–13 was £108,012.

Customs And Excise (Statistical Office)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury, in view of the fact that only five assistant clerks, new class employed in the Statistical Office, Customs and Excise, have been promoted to the second division since 1st January, 1911, while twenty-five, twenty-seven, and seventeen assistant clerks, new class, employed in the Post Office Savings Bank Department, Board of Education, and Board of Trade, respectively, have been promoted to the second division in the same period, if he will state why sufficient recommendations for promotions have not been forwarded by the Board of Customs and Excise for the sanction of the Treasury, so that the assistant clerks employed in the Statistical Office may have the same prospects of advancement as their colleagues in other offices; and if not less than one year's and not snore than two years' service as registered boy clerk may be allowed to reckon towards the eligibility by service of an assistant clerk for promotion to the second division?

In reply to the first part of the question, I would remind the hon. Member that as has been frequently stated in this House, promotions must depend on the varying circumstances of the different departments. It is not possible in any grade to secure absolutely equal chances of advancement at all times in all departments. I would, however, point out that in addition to the five Statistical Office assistant clerks promoted to the second division, two were promoted to junior clerkships in that office, and eleven to supervising assistant clerkships, posts practically non-existent in the other departments referred to. The hon. Member will observe that the proportion of these promotions to the total number of assistant clerks employed compares not unfavourably with the figures for the other departments he mentions. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury what grade of clerk is employed in the Statistical Office, Customs and Excise, on the registration of particulars embodied in the Board of Trade Monthly Returns of trade and navigation; the scale of salary of that grade; the date of its introduction into the Statistical Office; the grade of clerk employed in checking the particulars entered in the registers; and the number of hours spent on the average each month by the checking clerks in verifying the registration of merchandise imported into and exported from the various ports in the United King. dom?

The answer to the first part of the question is the assistant clerk class; to the second £45 to £150; to the third, December, 1896; to the fourth, that, the checking is primarily done by assistant clerks with checking allowances, subject to further checks by superior officers; to the fifth, that no record is kept of the time spent in checking each separate branch of the work.

British Beekeepers' Association

:asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will say how much money has been granted for the past year by the Government to the British Beekeepers' Association; in what areas has this money been spent; whether any counties have not shared in the benefits of this particular Grant and, if so, which; and whether the British Beekeepers' Association have rendered an account of their portions to the Government?

With regard to the first three parts of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the 'answer I gave to the hon. Member for Stoke on the 10th instant. Payments in respect of the Grant are only made when the association has satisfied the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, by accounts and otherwise, that the conditions attached to the Grant are being fulfilled.

Belfast Licensed Houses

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of on-licensed houses and the number of off-licensed houses in Belfast in the year 1901?

According to the "Return relating to Licensed Houses" (House of Commons Paper 408 of 1903), the number of premises holding retail "on" and retail "off" licences in the county borough of Belfast on 31st March, 1901, were as follows:—"On" licences, 662; "off" licences, 556.

Teachers' Pensions

:asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the new pension scheme is to be made retrospective with regard to those teachers who retired in October, 1901, and who had served upwards of thirty-seven years up to the date of their retirement?

I fear I am not in a position to say from what date and in what manner the new scheme will take effect.

Evicted Tenant Reinstated (County Kerry)

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Estates Commissioners have promised to Patrick Shea, of Cleeny, county Kerry, a restored evicted tenant on the Kenmare estate, a free grant of £160 for the purpose of stocking his land, and a further grant of £100 towards buildings; and, if so, when will these sums be paid to Mr. Shea?

The Estates Commissioners inform me that the facts are as stated in the first part of the question save that the suns to be expended on buildings will be an advance repayable in the land purchase annuity. The expenditure will be supervised by an inspector, who. will receive the necessary directions when proceedings for the sale of the estate have been completed.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary if he can obtain an explanation of the delay in registering the titles, under the Local Registration of Title Act, of the tenant purchasers on the Blacker-Douglas estate, county Kerry; whether he is aware that the lands in this case were vested in the tenant purchasers over three years ago, which should have been immediately followed by the registration of the titles; whether he is aware that the Land Commission continue to retain the purchase agreements, with the result that the Registrar of Titles is compelled to refuse to receive, even provisionally, all deeds dealing with these lands, thus making their legal transfer impossible; and whether, in view of the inconvenience thus caused, steps will be taken at once to register the titles, or at any rate to transfer the purchase agreements from the Land Commissioners to the Registry of Title?

The Estates Commissioners inform me that in the cases referred to on the Blacker-Douglas estate, county Kerry, immediately after the advances were made, and the holdings vested in the several tenant-purchasers the fiated agreements were forwarded to the Land Registry Office for the purpose of enabling the ownership of the holdings to be registered in accordance -with the requirements of the Local Registration of Title (Ireland) Act, 1891. Owing to certain questions having been raised by the Registrar of Tides in some of the cases the completion of the registration has been delayed, but the Commissioners hope to be in a position to fully discharge these queries by an early date.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if the Congested Districts Board will offer Mr. Martin, of the Lissduff estate, Dunmore, county Galway, an equivalent farm elsewhere and divide the Loorah farm, on the estate, amongst the eight small holders on the property?

As there are no proceedings pending before the Congested Districts Boari for the purchase of the Loorah farm they cannot say whether they would be prepared to offer a farm in exchange.

asked if maps, etc., have been lodged with the Congested Districts Board with regard to the Captain Quinton Dick estate, Carronbela, Dunmore, county Galway; and how soon it is expected that the sale will be effected?

The maps and documents necessary for a preliminary inspection of this property have not so far been lodged with the Congested Districts Board.

also asked whether the Congested Districts Board will transfer some of the tenants on the Bermingham estate, Milltown, county Galway, bought in 1893, to untenanted land on the Taaffe estate, or any adjoining estate, with a view to making the rest of the Bermingham holdings economic holdings?

The Congested Districts Board do not propose to transfer any of the Bermingham estate tenants to untenanted lands on the Taaffe or any other estate purchased by them in this district, as there will he no land available after the Board's own tenants have been dealt with.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the estate of Lord Clancarty, Ballinasloe, has been purchased by the Estates Commissioners many years ago; and, as all the formalities in connection with the same have long since been arranged, will he direct that the sale be completed so that the tenants may then get the benefit of the grazing lands which-are now held by a grazier named Cooke?

If the hon. Member refers to the lands of Killurebeg, these lands are included in that portion of the property which has not been acquired by the Estates Commissioners, but it is the subject of proceedings for sale to them, and will be dealt with by the Commissioners as soon as practicable. Pending the acquisition of the lands the Commissioners understand they have been let under a temporary grazing letting by the owner to, Mr. Cooke.

asked the Chief Secretary whether game and fishery rights are included in the offer of the Congested Districts Board for the purchase of the estate-of the Marquess of Sligo, county Mayo; and what demesne or other lands are to be retained by the landlord according to the Board's offer?

The shooting rights over the estate referred to are to be conveyed to the Congested Districts Board, and all the fishing rights are to be reserved to the vendor. The vendor has not agreed to sell any portion of his demesne land.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the estate of the Earl of Sandwich, at Ballinlough, Kilteely, county Limerick will be dealt with this year; what is the cause of the delay, seeing that the' agreements have been signed for more than seven years; and is the landlord to. be paid in cash?

This estate is the subject of proceedings for sale direct by the owner to the tenants under the Irish Land Act, 1903, and is being dealt with in order of priority on the principal register of direct sales (all cash). The Estates Commissioners hope that the estate will be reached for payment during the present financial year.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the estate of Lord Massey, near Galbally, county Limerick, is being dealt with; and, if so, will special attention be paid to the holdings of William Hanly, of Ballyglana, Galbally, and others, who refuse to sign because of the high price; and, in view of the fact: that these people are very highly rented, will the Commissioners refuse to sanction 'the sale unless justice is done to those tenants?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his question on this subject on the 8th May, to which I have nothing to add.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Congested Districts Board have made an offer for the Blake Minor estate, Costello, county Galway; and, if no offer has been made, will he state when one is likely to be made?

The Congested Districts Board have not yet made an offer for the purchase of this estate. The valuation of the property is at present in progress, and the Board hope to consider the question of making an offer within the next three months.

asked the Chief Secretary 171,ether, with regard to the Westby estate, Kilballyowen, West Clare, he can slate what negotiations are in progress; and whether, in view of the fact that it is about five years since this estate was taken over by the Estates Commissioners, he can promise that an effort will be made to dispose of the question with as brief a delay as possible?

The hon. Member is under a misapprehension in thinking that this estate has been taken over by the Estates Commissioners. The prcperty has not been, and is not, the subject of proceedings for sale to the Commissioners, but it is the subject of proceedings for sale -direct by the owner to the tenants under the Irish Land Act, 1903, and has not yet been reached in order of priority, and until so reached the Commissioners have no power to deal with it.

asked the Chief 'Secretary what is the cause of the delay in vesting their holdings in some of the sub-tenants on the estate of Matthew Franks, county Kerry; whether he is aware of the hardships endured by those poor tenants still paying the old rent; and when the Commissioners propose to vest their holdings?

This estate is the subject of proceedings for sale to the Estates Commissioners, and the holdings cannot be resold to the tenants until questions which have arisen as to the turbary on the estate and as to the sub-tenants thereon have been settled. These matters will be dealt with and the holdings vested in the tenants as soon as practicable.

asked the Chief Secretary what is the cause of delay in vesting their holdings in the tenants on the estate of Captain Stokes, county Kerry, considering the fact that agreements were signed in April, 1906, at 6s. 9d. in the £ first term, and they are still paying 4 per cent.; and when the Estates Commissioners propose to vest these holdings?

This estate has not yet been reached for payment in order of priority on the principal register of direct sales (all cash). In their purchase agreements the tenants contracted to pay interest in lieu of rent at the rate of 3¾ per cent. on the purchase money until the date of their holdings being vested in them. The Estates Commissioners hope that the estate will be reached in its turn for payment during the financial year commencing the 1st April next.

Old Age Pensions

asked the Chief Secretary if he 'will accede to the wishes of the Kilfinane pension committee, county Limerick, and send down an inspector to investigate the claims of both Bovenizer and Tobin, as in both these cases the pension officer was satisfied that the cliamants had reached the age of seventy?

As I have already informed the hon. Member, these cases have been decided, and the Local Government Board have accordingly no power to reopen consideration of the claims or to send an inspector to investigate them.

asked on what grounds the Local Government Board refuses to grant a pension to Thomas Courtney, of Ballinrush, Kilworth, county Cork; did the Fermoy pension committee pass the claim on two different occasions; were the Local Government Board not satisfied that this poor man has nothing to live on except the goodness of his son; and will the whole case be reconsidered?

Thomas Courtney's pension was disallowed on appeal by the Local Government Board as they were not satisfied that his means were less than £31 10s. a year. His claims for pension were not allowed by the pension committee on two occasions as stated in the question. The pension committee disallowed the first claim in 1911, and, on appeal, their decision was confirmed by the Board. In connection with his second claim the pension committee allowed him a pension of 5s., but on appeal the claim was disallowed. The claimant is maintained on a large, well-stocked and fully cropped farm which he assigned to his son in 1911, and in the opinion of the Board the benefits therefrom were worth more than £31 10s. a year.

Secondary Schools (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary if he will state from the last Returns the number of Roman Catholic clerical and lay headmasters, respectively, in intermediate schools in Ireland; the number of Roman Catholic clerical and lay assistant masters, respectively, in these schools; the number of Protestant clerical and lay headmasters, respectively; the number of Protestant clerical and lay assistant masters, respectively; the number of Roman. Catholic head mistresses and assistant mistresses, respectively, in these schools who are members of religious orders; the number of Roman Catholic head mistresses and assistant mistresses, respectively, who are not members of religious orders; and the number of Protestant head mistresses and assistant mistresses, respectively, in these schools?

The number of secondary schools in connection with the Inter-mediate Education Board for Ireland during the school year 1912–13 was 337. Of these the management was as follows:—

Roman Catholic.
Nuns71
Brothers or Monks79
Other Clergymen53
Lay men7
Lay women1
Total211
Protestant.
Clergymen.13
Lay men59
Lay women54
Total126
The Commissioners of Intermediate Education have no information as to the religion of lay assistant teachers; nor as to their numbers for the last three years. A Return compiled in 1909–10 showed that the approximate number of clerical and lay assistant teachers was as follows:—
Lay Assistant Teachers Regularly Employed.
Women.Men.
Catholic Sch'ls.Protestant Sch'ls.Total.Catholic Sch'ls.Protestant Sch'ls.Total.Gross Total
75328403293249542945
Clerical Assistant Teachers Regularly Employed.
Nuns.Men.Total.
435371806
Assistant Teachers Occasionally Employed (Lay).
Women.Men.
Catholic Sch'ls.Protestant Sch'ls.Total.Catholic Sch'ls.Protestant Sch'ls.Total.Gross Total
8610218812382205393
Clerical Assistant Teachers Occasionally Employed.
Nuns.Men.Total.
221840

Rathmullen (Landing Place)

asked why the Congested Districts Board, having first arranged to send a surveyor to meet the Donegal county surveyor in order to inspect Newbridge, Rathmullen (landing place) and report thereon, now, without any alteration in the circumstances, decline to carry out the arrangements, especially as the Donegal County Council is unanimous in the matter?

The Congested Districts Board recently decided that they would not undertake the work of improving the landing place at Newbridge (Rath- mullen), having regard to the large expenditure now being arranged for harbour works in Lough Swilly. In the circumstances the Board did not consider it necessary to have an inspection made as had been previously intended.

Registrar-General's Department (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary in how many instances within the last five years has the Registrar-General succeeded in his endeavours to take advantage of any opportunity of improving the positions of temporary clerks; is it possible that the pay or prospects of any of the permanent staff could be injured by the promotion of a clerk from a temporary position to a permanent position junior to that of the existing permanent clerks in the office; and, if so, in what way?

The Registrar-General has not power to appoint temporary employes to permanent clerkships in his Department, but has at all times endeavoured to assist them to obtain such improved positions as they may be eligible for under other departments, and he has been successful in one instance in doing so within the period named. It would depend upon the conditions under which a temporary clerk was allowed to enter a permanent class as to whether the interests of any members of the latter would thereby be prejudicially affected. There are no vacancies existing at present among the permanent staff of the Department.

Kilkenny Magistracy

asked the Chief Secretary if he is aware that the population of the county Kilkenny is comprised of 74,830 Roman Catholics and 4,329 Protestants, and as compared with those figures there are fifty-three Roman Catholic magistrates and seventy-four Protestants; is he aware that 90 per cent. of the whole number are Conservatives by reason of the fact that no gentleman will be appointed to the position of magistrate without the sanction and approval of the lord lieutenant of the county, who is himself a Conservative; is he aware that, on his own suggestion, more than three years ago, the names of a number of highly educated gentlemen were, on the recommendation of the public bodies of the county, sent to the Lord Chancellor without any result whatever, whereas several Conservatives were appointed on the recommendation of the lord lieutenant of the county; and whether it is proposed to take any action in the matter?

The hon. Members's figures are not quite accurate. According to the last Census, there were 61,468 Roman Catholics and 2,888 Protestants in the county of Kilkenny. There are 141 persons in the county holding the ordinary commission of the peace, of whom sixty-nine are believed to be Roman Catholics and seventy-two to be Protestants. The Lord Chancellor will consider all recommendations for the appointment of magistrates that may be made to him by representative persons or bodies, and will deal with them on their merits in the circumstances of each case. He has no knowledge of the recommendations referred to by the hon. Member as having been submitted to preceding Lord Chancellors.

Osborne Naval Cadets

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can give the following information in regard to the temporary buildings recently put up at Osborne for the accommodation of naval cadets, that is, the total cost and the cost per foot cube; and will he submit copies of the plans?

No temporary buildings for the accommodation of cadets at Osborne have been erected recently. If my hon. Friend alludes to the buildings comprising the establishment generally, their total cost was about £197,000, of which sum about £100,000 was expended on buildings of a not very permanent nature. The cost per foot-cube will vary with the different kind of building, and is not recorded. It would need considerable investigation to work this out in detail. If my hon. Friend would state of which buildings he would like to see plans, I shall be very pleased to show them to him.

Aircraft

Royal Flying Corps

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will give the House a copy of the order or letter or communication sent from the War Office to the Royal Flying Corps, late in May or early in June, in reference to any possible inspection or inquiry into the number of aeroplanes, and which communication was formally read to the officers by Major Sykes, the adjutant of the corps?

I am not aware of any correspondence except letters written to the commandants of the Central Flying School and Military Wing with regard to railway arrangements for the hon. Gentleman. These would not be of interest to the House, but I am sending copies to the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will give to the House a copy of the Report and recommendations of Major Sykes, the adjutant of the Royal Flying Corps, in April last on the subject of the monoplanes in possession of the corps?

It has never been the practice, and would not be in the interests of good administration, to publish Departmental Reports made by officers in the ordinary course of their duty.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether any and, if so, what arrangements have been made in the Royal Flying Corps for the training of air mechanics in aviation; and what opportunities there are for promotion from the ranks?

Arrangements have been made for training selected warrant officers, non-commissioned officers, and men of the Military Wing at the Central Flying School and in units of the Military Wing, and so far eighteen men have been so trained and have obtained their Royal Aero Club certificate. They are eligible for recommendation for commissions like all other non-commissioned officers in the Army and under the same conditions.

Aeroplanes Purchased

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has yet been able to find out, as promised, the official identifying numbers of the seven areoplanes purchased from the Grahame-White Company in March, 1913?

Bacteriology Of Milk

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if, in view of the admission of some of the veterinary officers under the Tuberculosis Order, 1913, that they were unfamiliar with the microscopic appearance and method of identification of the bacillus of tubercle, he will give the names of the various schools throughout the Kingdom where short courses on the bacteriology of milk in connection with the Tuberculosis Order are given?

I am informed that special classes in connection with the Tuberculosis Order are held at the Royal Veterinary College, London, and at the University of Liverpool. Arrangements are also being made for similar classes at the Veterinary College, Glasgow.

San Thomé And Principé (Repatriation)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will ascertain the average sums of money which the repatriated men and women carried back with them from San Thome and Principe to Angola during the months of January, February, and March of this year?

I have not received complete statistics for the period in question, but will inquire whether the Consul can obtain them. Thirty-two men who were repatriated during January and February on the termination of one-year contracts received an average bonus of about £5 10s.

Trade Boards Act (Laundries)

asked the President of the Board of Trade why hand laundries, employing many assistants, cannot be brought under the Trade Boards Act on the same terms as steam laundries?

The laundry processes proposed to be brought under the Trade Boards Act are those of calendering and machine ironing. These processes, I understand, are practically only carried on in power laundries.

Railway Rates

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the increased rates on goods traffic which the railway companies intend to put into operation on 1st July next will be shown on that date in the rate books which they are required by Act of Parliament to keep for public inspection; and whether the Board of Trade will adopt measures for ensuring that all such books containing the rates now charged on goods traffic shall be retained by the railway companies for public inspection after 1st July next at the various places at which they are kept?

Railway companies are required by law to show in the rate books at their stations all the rates in force for the time being. The new rates will no doubt, as a rule, be entered in the existing rate books and it should be possible to compare them with the present rates, but I have no power to require that this shall be so.

Central Telegraph Office

asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the case of a number of telegraphists over the age of twenty-one who were transferred from provincial offices to the Central Telegraph Office during 1912 without additional remuneration; whether he has considered the claim for increased salary in consequence of the extra cost of living in London; and whether, in view of the fact that the case has recently been submitted to the Select Committee on Post Office Wages, he can give an assurance that the Select Committee will consider the application of the Hobhouse Committee's age-pay recommendations in this case?

I am aware of the case to which the hon. Member refers. The pay of these officers on transfer to the Central Telegraph Office was fixed in ordinary course in accordance with the regulations laid down by the Treasury. The conditions of transfer were made perfectly clear to intending applicants, and I see no reason for asking the Treasury to afford them special treatment. I have no control over the procedure of the Select Committee, and cannot give the assurance suggested in the question.

Benefices Act

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Return relating to the working of the Benefices Act, 1898, granted earlier in the Session, will be laid upon the Table?

The previous Return on this subject, which took seven months to complete, contained 395 entries. The present Return will contain about 1,400, and, owing to the great pressure of work in the Statistical Branch of the Home Office, I fear that it will be impossible to complete it before October.

County Police (Rifles)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has been notified that many county police are being taught to use arms, and that rifles and bandoliers with ball cartridges are now issued to them by the War Office; if it has been reported to him that these armed police will be used in case of strikes to protect railways, dockyards, gasworks, and public buildings; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?

A limited number of rifles have been lent by the War Office to certain county police forces for use in connection with certain duties they would have to perform in the event of war—particularly the protection of Customs officers. These rifles will not be used in any way in connection with strikes. The conditions on which the police have been allowed to have them absolutely preclude this use.