House Of Commons
Monday, 28th July, 1913.
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions far Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Limerick Harbour Commissioners Bill [ Lords].
Alexandra Park and Palace Bill [ Lords].
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
Southgate Urban District Council Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Arundell Estate (Closing of Arundell Street and Panton Square) Bill [ Lords],
Central London Railway Bill [ Lords],
Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Conyngham Heirlooms Bill [ Lords],
Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Edinburgh Corporation Bill [ Lords].
Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Gomm Heirlooms Bill [ Lords],
Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Grays and Tilbury Gas Bill [ Lords],
Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Great Eastern Railway Bill [ Lords],
Verbal Amendments made; King's consent signified; Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Kent Electric Power Bill [ Lords],
Lord Wimborne's Estate Bill [ Lords],
Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Worthing Gas Bill [ Lords],
Read the third time, and passed, with an Amendment.
Bradford Corporation Bill [ Lords],
As amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
Ebbw Vale Water Bill [ Lords],
Huddersfield Corporation Bill [ Lords],
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Leith Harbour and Docks Bill [ Lords] (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.
Ascot Authority Bill [ Lords],
Ordered, That, in the case of the Ascot Authority Bill [ Lords], Standing Orders 211 and 236 be suspended, and the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to consider the Bill on Wednesday next.—[ The Deputy-Chairman.]
Watney, Combe, Reid, and Company Bill [ Lords],
Ordered, That in the case of the Watney, Combe, Reid, and Company Bill [ Lords], Standing Orders 211 and 236 be suspended, and the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to consider the Bill on Wednesday next.—[ The Deputy-Chairman.]
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill [ Lords],
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No 3) Bill [ Lord],
Read the third time, and passed, with an Amendment.
Pilotage Provisional Order Bill,
Read a second time, and committed.
Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (No. 1) Bill [ Lords] (by Order),
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill [ Lords] (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
Airdrie Corporation Gas Order Confirmation Bill,
"To confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Airdrie Corporation Gas." Presented by Mr. MCKINNON WOOD; and ordered, under Section 7 of the Act, to be considered To-morrow.
Message from the Lords,—
That they have agreed to:—
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 20) Bill, without Amendment.
Amendments to—
North-Eastern Railway Bill [ Lords], without Amendment.
East Ham Corporation (re-committed) Bill,
Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section A) [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Industrial Council
Copy presented of Report on Inquiry by the Industrial Council into Industrial Agreements [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Minutes of Evidence taken before the Industrial Council in connection with their Inquiry into Industrial Agreements [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Railway Returns
Copy presented of Returns of the Capital, Traffic Receipts, and Working Expenditure of the Railway Companies of the United Kingdom for the year 1912, with a General Report thereon and Summary Tables for a, series of years [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Cost Of Living Of The Working Classes
Copy presented of Report of an Inquiry by the Board of Trade into Working-class Rents and Retail Prices, together with the Rates of Wages in certain occupations in Industrial Towns of the United Kingdom in 1912 (in continuation of a similar Inquiry in 1905) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Trade Reports (Annual Series)
Copies presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 5172 and 5173 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Compensation For Industrial Diseases (Departmental Committee)
Copy presented of Report of the Departmental Committee appointed to inquire and report-whether the following diseases can properly be added to those enumerated in the Third Schedule of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, namely: (1) Cow-pox, (2) Depuytren's Contraction, (3) Clonic Spasm of the Eyelids, apart from Nystagmus, (4) Writer's Cramp. Report and Minutes of Evidence [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Explosives Act, 1875
Copy presented of Thirty-seventh Report of His Majesty's Inspectors of Explosives for the year 1912 [by Command] to lie upon the Table.
Penal Servitude Acts (Conditional Licence)
Copy presented of Licence granted to a Convict discharging her from Aylesbury Convict Prison on condition that she enters a home [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Pauperism (England And Wales) (Half-Yearly Statements)
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 6th May; Mr. Herbert Lewis]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 233.]
Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 15th July; Mr. Herbert Lewis]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 234.]
Union Of South Africa
Copy presented of Correspondence relating to recent disorders on the Witwatersrand and the Employment of Regular troops [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Supreme Court Of Judicature
Account presented of Receipts and Expenditure of the Paymaster-General on behalf of the Supreme Court of Judicature in respect of the Funds of Suitors of the Court in the year ended 28th February, 1913, and of Account of the National Debt Commissioners for the same period in respect of Funds held by them on behalf of the Supreme Court of Judicature, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 235.]
Boy Labour In The Post Office
Copy presented of third Report of the Standing Committee on Boy Labour in the Post Office [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Inquiry Into Charities (County Of Devon)
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—
Further Return relative thereto [ordered 26th July, 1905; Mr. Griffith-Boscawen]; to be printed.
Oral Answers To Questions
War In Balkans
1.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Bulgarian forces previously to the Treaty of London occupied a position of great strength opposite the Chatalja lines; and whether it was due to the pressure of the Powers that the Allies were obliged to accept the Enos-Midia line and withdraw from a position which could be held against the Turkish Army?
It is true that His Majesty's representative at Sofia was instructed to point out to the Bulgarian Government the advisability of withdrawing behind the Enos-Midia line as soon as his colleagues received similar instructions, but I am not aware that any such withdrawal was effected, nor am I competent to pronounce on the technical values of the positions in question.
Could my hon. Friend state what reply has been received from the Turkish Government concerning the representations made to them?
That does not arise out of this question.
Is it not a fact in regard to the Treaty of London that pressure was put upon the Allies to withdraw to a permanent frontier behind a line opposite Chatalja which they then held?
Yes, Sir, of course, there was a desire that the Treaty should be carried out.
Tuberculous Cows
2.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to a discussion at the recent congress of the Royal Sanitary Institute held at Exeter at the beginning of this month, in which the opinion was expressed by a leading veterinary expert, and sympathetically received by the congress, to the effect that the consumption of milk containing bovine tubercle bacilli has the effect of immunising young children and others against human tuberculosis, and that measures for exterminating tuberculosis in cattle may actually result in a spread of the human disease; and, if so, whether he is prepared to reconsider the possible effects of the Tuberculosis Order of 1913 in the light of modern scientific knowledge or, alternatively, to defer the enforcement of its provisions pending further scientific research? In putting this question, I should like to draw attention to the fact that the main virtue of it lay in the word "drastic" which appeared before the word "enforcement," and that that word has been cut out.
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. His attention has been called to the expression of opinion quoted by the hon. Member, but in view of the far more generally expressed opinion that a great number of young children every year contract tuberculosis with fatal results through the consumption of milk from tuberculous cows, he is not disposed to relax the efforts which he is making to check the disease by the operation of the Tuberculosis Order of 1913.
Stafford House
3.
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he can state what accommodation will be available in Stafford House for the entertainment of distinguished foreign visitors; and whether a date has (been fixed for the use of the apartments destined for this purpose?
The First Commissioner regrets that he is not able, at present, to state what accommodation will be available, nor is it possible at this stage to name a date when the apartments for entertainment purposes will be ready for use.
Thames Embankment Gardens
4.
asked whether the Embankment garden adjoining the House of Lords will eventually be thrown into one open space along with the new gardens on the Embankment which are being laid out under the London County Council; and, if a single sweep of garden is not at present contemplated, whether such development will be considered?
The plans now under consideration contemplate a single sweep of garden throughout the area available.
Load Line
8.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Committee appointed to inquire into the subject of the load line, which was presided over by Sir Edward Reed, and which reported in 1885, recommended that it would only tend to failure to entrust the task of assigning compulsory load lines which we describe to any purely official administration, but stated that it should be entrusted to some body of a more representative character which should consist not only of officials but also of gentlemen who, as shipowners, naval architects, seamen, and perhaps underwriters, would bring to bear on work great knowledge and experience; and why he has ignored the recommendation, when setting up the Committee which he has recently appointed, in not selecting a representative seaman to a place on the Committee?
The Report and recommendations of the Load Line Committee of 1885, to which my hon. Friend refers, were carefully considered when the Act of 1890 was before Parliament, and, so far as was then thought expedient, were given effect to by the Merchant Shipping Act, 1890. The provisions of that Act, reproduced in the Consolidation Act of 1894, are still in force, and put certain statutory obligations on the Board of Trade. I may point out that the Committee which is now sitting is not an assigning body but an advisory body, and was not intended to be representative of particular interests. But, as I have already stated, every facility is being, and will be, given for representatives of seamen and others interested to place their views before the Committee.
May I ask whether, in view of all the reports and statements which have been made in regard to this question, he would not consider the advisability of appointing a Committee of this House to inquire into those statements?
I do not know to what statements my hon. Friend refers. I can only say, in addition to the answer given, that the matter was very carefully considered by a very strong Committee.
The statements I allude to were in connection with the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, when President of the Board of Trade, and the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, and the right hon. Gentleman himself and his colleague beside him.
That is a different matter as to whether the load line of 1906, after six years, should not be examined into, in order to see how far it has been effective and how far deficient. The question we are dealing with is quite different from that which the hon. Member suggests.
Labour Exchanges
9.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the clerks employed at the Walham Green, Clapham Junction, Canning Town, Leyton, Holloway, Woolwich, Kingston, Shepherd's Bush, Tottenham, Borough High Street, and Brentford Labour Exchanges have worked, on an' average, about 350 hours each overtime from the 1st February last to the 30th June without any extra remuneration; whether it is proposed to give them any extra remuneration; and, if so, why there is so much delay?
I am aware that a considerable amount of overtime has been worked in many of the Labour Exchanges during this period, though the average for the Exchanges specified is much below the figure stated in the question. As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave in reply to the hon. Member for Hammersmith on 17th July.
10.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that on the 18th and 19th instant men were being engaged-within the precincts of the Gravesend Labour Exchange for work at Leith docks,-where a dispute is in progress; that a man who applied at the Exchange was informed that there was nothing for him, but that a man in the porch was engaging men for Leith; and whether he will make inquiry into the matter and give instructions that the porch or any other part of an Exchange must not be used for such a purpose?
I have caused inquiry to be made into the matter, and understand that there is no foundation for the statement that an applicant was informed by an officer of the Gravesend Labour Exchange that a man in the porch of that Exchange was engaging men for Leith, nor was any such person seen or known to be there by the officers of the Exchange on the days in question. No member of the public is permitted to use the precincts of any Exchange in the manner described, and I therefore see no reason to issue special intructions on this point.
Royal Navy
War Staff
12.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the distribution of business has been altered at the Admiralty in so far as the War Staff is now placed under the control and orders of the First Lord and removed from the control and orders of the First Sea Lord?
No change has been made in regard to the relations of the War Staff to the Board of Admiralty as laid down in the table of distribution of business. By that table the superintendence of the War Staff is assigned to the First Sea Lord. There is therefore no foundation for the Noble Lord's suggestion.
Oil Fuel
14.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will state to the House the specification of oil as to flash-point when oil fuel was first introduced into the Navy, and the specification now; whether he will state to the House if the flash-point has been altered considerably during the last twelve months; and, if so, whether he will state to the House to what extent?
The flash-point was fixed at 250 degrees Fahrenheit in 1902, but was reduced to 200 degrees Fahrenheit in 1903. In 1912–13, as a result of expert advice and experiment, it was decided to reduce the flash-point to 175 degrees Fahrenheit except in the case of light shale and distillate oils—for which a flash-point of 200 degrees Fahrenheit is still retained. I may mention that Lloyd's standard is 150 degrees Fahrenheit (close test), and, under certain precautions, an even lower flash is permitted to be used in merchant ships.
16.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if the contracts to be made for the supply of oil will be made only with companies registered in England or with firms established in the United Kingdom?
In the great majority of cases the large producing companies, if not themselves registered in the United Kingdom, either have branch offices here or British firms acting as their agents. The Admiralty is in no way precluded, however, from making a contract direct with a foreign producing company whenever such a course is advantageous.
Would not great difficulties arise in the event of war if we had contracts with firms or companies in foreign countries?
Strange as it may seem, those aspects are borne in mind by the Admiralty.
17.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if it is the intention of the Admiralty in purchasing or acquiring interests in oil fields to confine such purchases to the Colonies or to parts of the British Empire?
I have already stated to the House the general lines of Admiralty policy in regard to oil fuel supplies, and it is not in the public interest that the possible intentions of the Admiralty and its ultimate policy should be more precisely stated at the present time.
"Haelequin," "Insolent" And "Ant" (Landing Vessels)
15.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the vessels "Harlequin," "Insolent," and "Ant," used for landing liberty men from the Fleet at Spithead, are obsolete and unsuitable for the duty, and that the "Harlequin" cannot steer with accuracy; whether he is aware that these vessels have sometimes to visit six or seven ships in order to get the men on board; and, seeing that owing to this sometimes the men do not get ashore until five o'clock in the afternoon, although their leave is supposed to commence at 1.30, whether the Board can see their way to supply vessels suitable for this work?
The "Ant" and "Insolent" are no longer in use for this service. A vessel large enough to replace them both has already been purchased and is expected to be delivered in September. The "Harlequin" was acquired in 1908, and is reported to be a suitable vessel in regard to accommodation and speed. I am not prepared to accept the Noble Lord's suggestion that she cannot steer with accuracy. She is, however, reported to be unhandy, and arrangements are being made to effect certain improvements in her. In regard to the last part of the question I have received no report indicating that the time occupied in getting the men ashore is as great as is suggested by the Noble Lord.
What is the difference between steering badly and being unhandy?
The Noble Lord will be able to appreciate that point better than I.
Is it the fact that the paddle wheels are locked, or can they be worked separately?
I have no information except what I have given in my reply.
Admiralty Contract (Fair Wages Clause)
18.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the firm of J. W. Blake and Son, Gosport, Admiralty contractors, have been employing a hammerman at a rate of 2½d. per hour, the proper rate being 5¾d. per hour; that when the men's union made representations to the firm the reply was given that they had taken him to be younger than he actually was, and that he had not been employed upon skilled work, and the man was subsequently discharged; and whether, in view of the fact that there is a difference of opinion as to the work the man was engaged upon, he will have inquiries made in order to ensure that the system of this firm is not in contravention of the Fair-Wages Clause?
Inquiry will be made into the circumstances referred to in the question.
19 and 20.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) if his attention has been called by the Newcastle dis trict secretary of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers to the fact that Messrs. Armstrong, Whitworth, and Company, are not observing the Fair-Wages Clause of the House of Commons in the payment of skilled mechanics (engineers) doing Government work; and what decision, if any, has been arrived at by his Department on the matter; and (2) whether his attention has been called by the Newcastle district secretary of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers to the fact that the Parsons Marine Turbine Company, Wallsend-on-Tyne, have not observed the Fair-Wages Clause of the House of Commons in paying skilled mechanics (engineers) employed on Government work; and what action, if any, he has taken in the matter?
This matter has been reported to the Admiralty and is being investigated.
22.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether Messrs. Morrison and Mason have agreed to observe the wages and working conditions for all classes of workmen, including navvies and labourers, as laid down in the agreement signed between the trades union and the Portsmouth Master Builders' Association?
It is understood that Messrs. Morrison and Mason have entered into no agreement, but that, so far as they are applicable, they are observing the wages conditions for all classes of workmen, including navvies and labourers, as laid down in the agreement mentioned.
Ships On Chinese Stations
21.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty in view of the present condition of affairs in China, how many of His Majesty's ships are at present on the Yangtse between Hankow and Shanghai; how many are at Shanghai itself; whether there is any reserve of gunboats at Hong Kong available for river work; and when will the two river gunboats promised last year be ready for service?
By latest advices there are twelve of His Majesty's ships between Hankow and Shanghai, three at Shanghai itself. Two more large ships are proceeding to Wusung and two destroyers to Shanghai. There are no gunboats in reserve at Hong Kong, but there are torpedo craft which can be employed on river work if necessary. The date for the delivery of the two new river gunboats of the present year's programme is not yet settled, but on present information it is estimated that the vessels will be completed in the early part of 1915.
Naval Manœuvres (Wireless Communication)
23.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is customary during the naval manœuvres for the wireless operators on certain ships to be engaged in deliberately interfering with the wireless communication of the opposing Fleet; whether the problem of jamming messages is a simple one and easily applied to the Imperial service; and will he say whether there are any known means of preventing this?
I am advised that it is not the universal custom during manœuvres to attempt to interfere with the opposing Fleet's messages, though it may at times have been attempted for short periods. It is not worth the trouble involved and the delay caused to the communications of one's own Fleet, and has in practice often been found abortive. The problem is not a simple one, even when the installations are of the same type, and would be more difficult when the details of the opponent's system are not well known, and very difficult in the ease of stations well separated from each other. The answer to the last part of the question is generally in the affirmative.
Is it not possible to tap messages sent across?
Yes, Sir.
Officers Interested In Contracting Firms Or Companies
24.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if there is any Navy regulation or rule of the Service prohibiting naval officers while serving His Majesty from entering into relations with, or holding interests in, the business of contractors to the Admiralty, or from holding shares or other interests in companies entering into contracts with the Admiralty?
By Article 14 of the King's Regulations, officers are forbidden to have any pecuniary interests or personal advantage in the purchase of or in contracts for the supply of provisions or stores of any kind for the use of His Majesty's ships or the naval service generally, or in contracts made for the execution of any naval works on shore.
Ewell Charities
25.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will inquire of the trustees of the charities of Ewell, Surrey, how many meetings of the trustees have been held and on what dates during the last three years; whether the representative trustees were consulted before the requests and communications put forward as the wishes and views of all the trustees were presented to the Board; and whether all due formalities will be observed and properly certified before the money of these charities is allowed to be paid over for the building of a Church of England school at Ewell?
I see no ground for making the inquiry suggested by the hon. Member. I have no information to show that all the trustees were not consulted on any proposals made to the Board. I have no reason to suppose that the trustees will not observe all due formalities in dealing with the funds of the charities.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that allegations are being made which render this transaction, at any rate, suspicious and liable to be upset later on by decisions of the Courts of Law, and will he therefore make inquiry?
If a primâ facie case is made out, of course I will make further inquiries, but I have no information which would justify me at the present moment in making inquiries.
Would a newspaper report be considered primâ facie?
It depends upon what the newspaper report contains.
Ratepayer's Right To Inspect Documents
26.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that, previous to the Act of 1902, any ratepayer had the right to inspect documents in the office of his local school board; that this right was appreciated by ratepayers, especially those desirous of knowing the reports of His Majesty's inspectors; whether he is aware that the ratepayers in different localities are now prevented, under the Education Act of 1902, from knowing whether the reports of the schools to which their children are sent are satisfactory, and that suspicion and friction have thereby arisen; and whether the right of ratepayers to know how their money is spent will be restored by the Education Bill of next Session?
The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. Section 87 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, which conferred the right which he mentions, was repealed by the Education Act, 1902. Article 23 of the Code directs that any report on a school sent by the Board to the local education authority or to the managers must be entered in the log book. The managing bodies of public elementary schools in county areas now include representatives appointed by minor local authorities, to whom, in practice, the inspectors' reports are communicated. I am not aware of the existence of such suspicion and friction as the hon. Member suggests. I will consider the point raised in the last part of the question.
Education (No 2) Bill
27.
asked the President of the Board of Education whether it is intended to proceed this Session with the Education (No. 2) Bill; and, if not, how the Supplementary Estimate, Class IV., Sub-head 2r Vote DD, can be distributed?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I should add that unless the Bill becomes law we shall not feel authorised to distribute the proposed Grant of £100,000 to local education authorities.
National Insurance Act
Great North Of Scotland Railway
42.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that, although a certificate of exception from the provisions of the Insurance Act was issued to the Great North of Scotland Railway in October last, the regulations providing for the issue of a notice of certificate of exception and schedule of terms to the staff concerned have not yet been complied with; and whether he will make inquiries as to the cause of the delay and request the company to issue a notice at once?
My right hon. Friend is informed that the Commissioners are in communication with the company in the matter with a view to notice in the prescribed form being given at an early date.
Insured Persons (Scotland)
43.
asked what is the total number of insured persons in Scotland, distinguishing between compulsorily insured, voluntarily insured, and deposit contributors, as ascertained from the latest figures?
The estimated numbers at the present time are 1,441,629, 1,963, and 36,014, respectively.
Approved Societies' Funds (Scotland)
44.
asked what is the amount of money at present held by the Scottish Insurance or National Debt Commissioners on behalf of approved societies in Scotland; in what securities have the available moneys been invested, and by whom; what is the rate of interest earned on such invested moneys; what appreciation or depreciation has taken place in such securities; and, if there has been depreciation, who bears the loss on securities invested by the National Debt Commissioners?
The amount at present standing to the credit of the Scottish National Health Insurance Fund is £1,551,124, of which £1,425,000, has been issued to the National Debt Commissioners for investment. With regard to the second part of the question I would refer my hon. Friend to the annual Return issued by the National Debt Commissioners under Section 54 (6) of the Act. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the last Return from which he will observe that about one-half of the investments are in short-dated securities. The liability of the National Health Insurance Fund to societies in respect of moneys standing to their credit in that fund is a cash liability. The Treasury regulations of 12th August, 1912 (S.R. and O. 1201, of 1912), by which the National Debt Commissioners are governed in their management of the sums issued to them for investment, provide means for protecting that fund against loss through the depreciation of investments so made. The average Tate of interest earned on the capital sums invested (excluding moneys awaiting investment) is about £3 8s, 6d. per cent.
If in Scotland the original basis was 9d. for 4d. and there is all this enormous surplus, may I ask if the people have been getting 9d. for 4d.?
Perhaps the Noble Lord will put a question down on that point.
Tuberculosis Officers
72.
asked the President of the Local Government Board in how many cases medical officers of health have been appointed to perform the duties of tuberculosis officer in addition to their other existing duties?
In seven cases the Local Government Board, with: the concurrence of the Insurance Commissioners, have approved of the arrangement referred to.
Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that these seventy people come up to the qualifications for efficiency laid down by the Local Government Board?
If my hon. Friend will look at the answer I am giving to Question No. 68, he will be fully answered.
73.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, in giving approval to or withholding it from tuberculosis schemes submitted by local authorities, the Board have taken into consideration the staffing of dispensaries and sanatoria, including the tenure and other conditions of appointment of the staff and the qualifications and experience of tuberculosis officers?
In reviewing the schemes put before them by local authorities, the Local Government Board have regard to all relevant considerations, including such as those referred to in the question.
Receipts And Payments (Ireland)
39.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the amount received from employers, employés, and the State in Ireland, respectively, for National Health Insurance during the year ending 14th July instant; the amount paid, respectively, for sickness benefit, maternity benefit, sanatorium benefit, during the six months and for administration expenses during the twelve months that the same have been in operation; the amount received from employers, employés, and the State, respectively, for unemployment insurance in Ireland during the twelve months ending 14th July instant; and the amount paid in unemployment benefit to unemployed persons directly and to associations, respectively, during the six months during which benefits have been payable?
The receipts into the Irish National Health Insurance Fund up to the 13th instant were £824,883, including £130,687 State Grant. There is no means of distinguishing between the-contributions of employers and employed. £112,565 was issued to approved societies for administration expenses, and £193,601 14s. 1d. for sickness and maternity benefits in the same period. £15,994 19s. 10d. was issued to insurance committees for sanatorium benefit and administration. For an answer to the second part of the question, perhaps my hon. Friend will address the President of the Board of Trade.
House Of Commons (Procedure)
46.
asked the Prime Minister whether he could arrange in future to give notice of all Money Resolutions on Bills by having the same printed on the Order Paper in sufficient time to allow of Amendments being put down to them?
I see no sufficient reason to depart from the usual practice of the House in regard to this matter, but the question will no doubt be considered by the Select Committee on Procedure.
Does the Prime Minister not realise the difficulty which, as a matter of fact, occurred only last week when Members were suggesting Amendments to a Resolution they could not possibly have seen?
We have gone a great deal further than our predecessors by putting these Resolutions on the Paper. I very much deprecate the practice which has grown up of discussing details twice—both on the Resolution and on the Bill.
47.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Eleven o'clock Rule is now suspended, and that Members are also being asked to sit on Committees after 2.45 when the House is sitting; and "whether he will consider the possibility of changing an arrangement which leaves so much of the Session without Committee work, and crowds the bulk of it into the last few weeks, when sufficient time cannot be given to a considered discussion of useful measures?
This is also a matter which might, I think, well be considered by the Select Committee on Procedure.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration this suggestion: that next Session he provide an early day in order that the Second Readings of the Scottish Bills may be taken, so that the Bills may be sent up to Committee at the beginning of the Session and not crowded into the last three weeks?
I am afraid if I were to promise that, a similar request would be preferred by England, Ireland, and Wales.
Have the Committee on Procedure any influence on the arrangement of Government business?
It is appointed for that purpose.
Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed how empty the benches are during Question Time? Is he aware that several large Committees are seated upstairs at the present moment, that Ministers who ought to be there are here, and that Ministers who ought to be here are there?
That is a matter which the Select Committee on Procedure may well consider.
Will the right hon. Gentleman refer this particular question of procedure to the Committee?
It comes, I believe, within the scope of their inquiry.
Financial Relations (Scotland)
49.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to facilitate the early establishment of a domestic legislature in Scotland, he will appoint a Commission to investigate during the Recess the relations at present obtaining between Scotland and Great Britain in the matter of public income and expenditure, with a view to fixing the appropriate contribution to Imperial revenue which Scotland under Home Rule should make and the most convenient form of levying such contribution?
I am not prepared at present to promise to appoint such a Commission.
Financial Relations (Wales)
50.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to facilitate the early establishment of a domestic Legislature in Wales, he will appoint a Commission to investigate, during the Recess, the relations at present existing between the Principality, including Monmouthshire, and Great Britain in the matter of public income and expenditure, so as to fix the appropriate contribution of the Principality to Imperial revenues, the fittest method of levying the same, and the probable amount of the cost of the domestic services assuming that none are reserved to Imperial Parliament?
I am not prepared at present to promise and appoint such a Commission.
Railway And Canal Traffic Act, 1912
53.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the dissatisfaction that has been caused amongst traders by the manner in which the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1912, is being carried out; and whether he will appoint a Special Committee to inquire into the working of this Act?
The effect of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1913, is to lay down the conditions under which a rise in the cost of labour shall be deemed by the Railway and Canal Commission to justify an increase of railway rates if challenged under the Railway and Canal Traffic Act of 1894. As no case in which it has been sought to justify an increase of rates under the Act of 1913 has as yet been heard by the Commissioners, any inquiry into the working of the Act would be in any case altogether premature.
Has the right hon. Gentleman had his attention drawn to the dissatisfaction which has arisen in connection with this matter in many commercial centres?
I have received certain resolutions on the point, but I may point out that the Act has not yet really begun to work, and, therefore, it would be of no use at the present moment to inquire into its operation.
Education Grants (Scotland)
54.
asked what equivalent Grants, if any, will be given to Scotland consequent upon the proposals in the Education (No. 2) Bill?
There are cases in which the principle of equivalent Grants is appropriate, but there are other cases in which it is not appropriate. This is one of the latter cases. Education Grants for Scotland are based upon consideration of the needs of Scotland, which in many respects are different from those of England, but care is taken to ensure that the aid given from the Imperial Exchequer to Education in Scotland as a whole is not less than what is given to England. At the present moment Scotland is certainly not suffering any disadvantage.
Is it not the case that the fact that at present Scotland is not suffering is due to this: that in Scotland education is in receipt of Grants which are applied to other purposes in England?
That is so, but it does not entirely account for the difference in the state of affairs.
Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that a few weeks ago he kindly gave me figures which showed that Scotland is getting a great deal more per head of population for education than England?
Yes, but that answer is subject to certain qualifications.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know that the equivalent Grant in this case is £13,750? How can he view with equanimity this sum of money going out of Scotland?
I view, not only with equanimity but with pleasure, the fact that we are getting £42,000 for which England is not demanding an equivalent. If the Education Grants are based on the necessities of Scotland they must also be based on the necessities of England. In this case England has a special necessity which Scotland does not suffer from.
Public Health
55.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the suggestion of Sir Thomas Barlow and other distinguished medical men, and endorsed by a unanimous resolution of the British Medical Association, now meeting at Brighton, that a Royal Commission should be appointed in order to investigate the public health aspect of venereal disease; and whether he intends to act upon this suggestion?
As I stated in reply to a question on Friday last, the suggestion is receiving careful consideration. I can say nothing more at present.
Provisional Collection Of Taxes Act
56.
asked if Mr. T. Gibson Bowles, who in the action Bowles v. the Bank of England, recovered the Income Tax unlawfully deducted by the Bank from a dividend due to him, has now been called upon by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to pay to them that same Income Tax; has this been done by the direction of the Treasury and of the Prime Minister as First Lord thereof, or by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue of their own motion without such direction; and, seeing that the action in question, which established an important public principle, cost Mr. Bowles £3,084, including £137 of his law costs which the Treasury refused to pay, though it paid the whole costs of the Bank, and that Mr. Attorney-General undertook that the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act would not have the effect either of robbing Mr. Bowles of the fruits of his action or of laying him open to some sort of counter claim, is it proposed to persist in the claim now made?
The assessment has been made by the District Commissioners of Taxes, the proper authorities for dealing with such a matter, under the provisions of the Income Tax Acts. The observation referred to in the last part of the question was directed to any action which might have been taken by the Bank of England, and could not bind the District Commissioners in the exercise of their statutory functions. The Attorney-General on the same occasion, in reply to the hon. and learned Member himself, made it quite clear that Mr. Gibson Bowles could not escape having to pay his Income Tax by having caused to be set aside the practice of deduction without statutory authority.
Is that an assurance that the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act itself will not be used against Mr. Bowles?
I do not quite know that I can say that. He has simply to pay Income Tax like anybody else.
And he has had a very good run for his money.
57.
asked why the undertaking given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on behalf of the Government, of which the Prime Minister has been reminded from time to time, to appoint a Select Committee to inquire into the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act has not been carried out; and whether it will be carried out next Session?
The Government will take steps to set up a Committee forthwith, unless, owing to the late date of the Session, it is agreed through the usual channels to postpone its appointment till next Session.
Railway Rates
58.
asked whether and, if so, when it is the intention of the Government to appoint a Select Committee of the two Houses of Parliament to inquire into the whole question of railway rates, with a view to reclassification and general revision?
I do not think a Committee of the kind suggested, with the object mentioned, would lead to useful results. The Government have the question of an inquiry into the railway position under consideration, but I cannot yet make any announcement on the question.
59.
asked whether the Government have abandoned their intention of introducing this Session a one-Clause Bill to meet the grievances of farmers and traders in respect of owners' risk rates charged upon produce and merchandise consigned by rail to balance to some extent the benefits conferred upon the railway companies by the Railways Act of last Session?
I regret that it has not been found possible to arrive at such an agreement in regard to the question of owner's risk rates as to enable me to introduce a Bill on the subject this Session.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the Government did not practically give a pledge that they would introduced the Bill this Session?
On the contrary; I said particularly that if I could arrive at an agreement such as would make it a more or less non-contentious measure, it would be introduced, but it was quite evident that otherwise it could not be introduced this Session.
Excessive Sickness (Scotland)
60.
asked whether approved societies in Scotland are finding that the average expectation of cost of sickness benefit is being exceeded, and, in particular, if the societies mainly composed of women are finding much excess of expenditure; whether there has been any excess in any particular district or with regard to any society or group of societies; to what the excess has been due; and what steps the Commissioners propose to take with regard to this important question?
As my right hon. Friend stated in reply to the hon. Member for Salisbury, on the 12th ultimo, it is too early to make any generalisation as to the actual claims for sickness benefit in comparison with the actuaries' estimates. The Commissioners are, however, taking steps to obtain information from approved societies on the points raised by my hon. Friend, and the whole subject, as he is aware, will be the matter of an inquiry by a Departmental Committee.
Old Age Pensions
61.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he has received any representations from boards of guardians asking for an Amendment of the Old Age Pensions Act by which pensions may be given to persons admitted to the workhouse for medical care, and such pensions or some part of them be recoverable, by the guardians in payment for the treatment; and if he can hold out any hope of legislation on the subject?
Representations have been received of the nature referred to; but I am afraid that I cannot hold out hope of legislation on the subject.
National Gallery
62.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can explain the need for a Supplementary Estimate, Class IV., Sub-head 2, being an additional £1,200 for police at the National Gallery?
This Supplementary Estimate has been presented because since the date at which the original Estimate was framed it has been found necessary to increase the staff of police at the National Gallery and the National Gallery of British Art.
Is the increase necessitated by the recent outrages?
I think that is so.
Vivisection Inspectors
64.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he has taken, or proposes to take, to ensure that the vivisection inspectors to be appointed are in sympathy with the Act they are called on to enforce?
My right hon. Friend will satisfy himself before making the appointment that the persons to be appointed are qualified for the post in this as in other respects.
Poor Rate (Prosecution At Burnham, Bucks)
65.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether William Allan Macdonald was, on Monday last, arrested by the police, without warrant shown, and sentenced by the justices at Burnham, Bucks, to four weeks' imprisonment for non-payment of poor rate in respect of a house called Conewood, Farnham Royal, Bucks, and forthwith committed to Reading Gaol; whether he is aware that Macdonald is not the owner or tenant of Conewood, or otherwise liable for the rates on the same; and whether he will make inquiry and, if the above facts are established, order his immediate release?
My right hon. Friend is making inquiry with regard to this case, but in any event he has no power to interfere with a term of imprisonment imposed in default of payment of poor rates.
Motor Omnibus Collision (Whitechapel Road)
66.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been drawn to a collision which took place between two motor omnibuses in Whitechapel Road on 6th July, whereby the two vehicles became locked together and were badly damaged; if so, whether he is aware that the vehicles were removed by the breakdown gang of the motor omnibus company without any inspection or interference on the part of the police; and whether he can explain why the practice usually adopted in the case of tramcars in a similar condition was not followed, namely, that of holding up the vehicles pending the arrival of an official from Scotland Yard?
The detention in situ of motor public carriages concerned in a street accident, whatever the type of vehicle, necessarily depends on the circumstances of the individual case, and must, therefore, be a matter for the discretion of the police. The directions to send for an expert official to make an examination on the spot apply only to cases of serious accident. The accident referred to was of an ordinary character.
Suffragist Disturbances
67.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has any information as to the disturbances in St. Stephen's Hall on Thursday evening last and, in particular, whether Miss Margaret Macmillan was thrown down by the police; and, if so, why this was done?
The police have no knowledge of any woman having been thrown down in St. Stephen's Hall. Mrs. Pethick Lawrence with several other ladies had been permitted to accompany Sir Edward Busk to St. Stephen's Hall as a deputation, and while there she began to make a speech. She was requested to refrain and on refusal was removed from the hall. Owing to the resistance offered some measure of force had to be used.
Have the persons who were convicted as a result of this disturbance been let out already by order of the Home Secretary?
That does not arise out of the question.
Has any report been made to the Home Office as to the injuries to Miss Margaret Macmillan and Mrs. Lawrence?
The question was asked with regard to whether anybody had been thrown down in St. Stephen's Hall, but the police say they have no information of that kind.
Is it not a fact that this happened at the top of Westminster Hall, which is below St. Stephen's Hall?
I understand that this occurrence, so far as the police know, did not occur anywhere.
Lagos
74.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has any information as to the closing of the port of Lagos, on the West Coast of Africa; if so, whether such closing is likely to be prolonged; how many cases of yellow fever have been reported; and whether the medical officer apprehends any serious condition of affairs consequent on the cases reported?
Two cases of yellow fever have occurred in Lagos within the last ten days, and the port has in consequence been declared infected; but I have no reason to suppose that it has been closed to shipping. The port will probably not be declared free from infection until eighteen days have elapsed from the isolation, death or recovery of the last suspected case. No case has been notified to me since the 21st instant, and judging from the information that I have received there is no reason whatever to anticipate a serious outbreak.
Have either of the cases been those of Europeans?
I am not sure. Perhaps the hon. Member will give notice of the question.
South Africa (Strike Of Miners)
75.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the number of Imperial troops now stationed on the Witwatersrand, and the number on the 15th July?
The number remains, I believe, the same as when the troops were originally sent up. The maximum I now understand to have been 2,910.
When are you going to take them all away?
Will there be any increase in the number of troops on the Rand without the Home Government being informed and their approval being obtained?
Oh, yes, Sir, if necessary.
Are we to take it that the cables saying that there are 8,000 or 9,000 troops on the Band are false, and that there has been no increase in recent days?
I can only inform the hon. Gentleman that my own figures are correct.
Have any special instructions been given to the commanding officers with regard to the interference in labour disputes by these troops?
No, Sir, only that they must obey the law.
Laud Valuation
76.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he proposes to have the land valuation suspended so far as it applies to the land, and interests in land, and site values affected by the Revenue Bill, 1913?
The answer is in the negative.
Civil Servants (Deduction Of Income Tax)
77.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what reason the Paymaster-General had for deducting more Income Tax than he was warranted in doing when paying the quarterly balances of salary due to certain Civil servants on the 30th June last; and what reason he had when he made such deductions for disregarding the declarations made by such Civil servants in the previous month that their pay formed their sole sources of income?
If the hon. Member will be good enough to furnish me with particulars of the cases referred to, I will cause inquiry to be made upon the subject.
Superannuation Act (Amending Bill)
78.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why the Bill to amend the Superannuation Act, introduced last Session, has not been reintroduced as promised by him; and whether it is proposed to reintroduce it next Session?
I am not aware of any such promise. I understand that last Session's Bill met with opposition, and I cannot undertake to introduce any controversial measure on this subject.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he made a promise himself to introduce the Bill this year, quite early in the Session?
All I did was to express a hope. I have the actual answer here.
Evicted Tenants (Ireland)
81.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland why John Duff, who was evicted from his holding on the estate of Caroline Buxton and others, Coolnacarte, Queen's County, was not reinstated in his holding when the estate was acquired by the Estates Commissioners; why the Estates Commissioners allotted his holding amongst other tenants on the estate instead of reinstating him; and if he will say whether the Estates Commissioners intend providing John Duff with a holding elsewhere or purpose to otherwise compensate him?
Duff's case was fully considered by the Estates Commissioners when dealing with the Buxton estate, on which his former holding is situate, and they decided to take no action in the matter of his reinstatement, nor will they provide him with a holding elsewhere. The lands formerly occupied by Duff have been, allotted by the Commissioners in the exercise of their discretion to three tenant purchasers who have signed undertakings to purchase same, and have been put in possession thereof.
Labourers (Ireland) Acts
82.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in the event of any rural district council obtaining a loan in the open market for the purpose of proceeding with a scheme for the erection of cottages under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts at a rate of interest exceeding land purchase terms, the financial provisions of the new Land Bill will entitle such council, when the Bill becomes law, to apply for and receive on land purchase terms, out of the million pounds provided for the purposes of the Labourers Act, an amount sufficient to redeem the loan necessarily borrowed in the open market for the completion of a scheme?
It would not be possible to make the financial provisions of the Bill retrospective in the case of labourers' cottages, as the hon. Member suggests.
In cases where the district councils in future borrow money for the purpose of completing a scheme, will the Financial Clauses in those cases allow them to repay it out of the money provided under the Bill?
In the future, if they borrow money, they will not borrow at the higher rate if they think they can get it at the lower rate under the financial provisions of the new Bill.
Land Purchase (Ireland)
84.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether Mr. H. Blake-Knox has yet accepted the offer issued to him by the Congested Districts Board on 19th November, 1912, for the purchase of Iris property in the parishes of Kildacamogue and Straid, county Mayo, or what stage the negotiations for sale have reached?
Negotiations for the purchase of this property by the Congested Districts. Board are still proceeding.
85.
asked whether the negotiations between the Congested Districts Board and the owners of the estate of the late Mr. W. E. Kelly, situate in the parishes of Aglish and Ballyheane, county Mayo, have resulted in a sale of the estate, or when the Board hope to acquire the property?
Negotiations are proceeding between the Congested Districts Board and the owners of this estate, and they are not in a position to give any further information at present.
86.
asked whether Mr. Patrick O'Dowd, J.P., Fallduff, county Mayo, has lodged maps and other necessary papers with the Congested Districts Board with a view to a sale of his estate through the Board; and, if so, when the Board will have an inspection made and an offer issued?
Mr. O'Dowd has lodged the maps and certain documents necessary for a preliminary inspection of this estate, but some further information asked for by the Congested Districts Board is awaited.
87.
asked whether the Congested Districts Board have approached Mr. John Durcan, Turlough, relative to the sale of his estate in Cloontubrid, county Mayo; and, if so, with what result?
The Congested Districts Board have communicated with Mr. Durkin regarding the sale of the property, but it has not so far been offered for sale through them.
88.
asked whether the Congested Districts Board have yet issued offers for the estates of the following, situate in the parishes of Turlough and Kildacomogue, county Mayo: Mr. D. G. FitzGerald, the Misses Hunter, Mr. B. Gibbons, Phibbs Irwin (in lunacy), James Foy, Mark Foy, and P. Foy; and, if so, whether the offers or any of them have been accepted?
The Congested Districts Board have not yet issued offers for the purchase of the estates of D. J. FitzGerald, E. Gibbons, and J. Phibbs Irwin. Offers for the purchase of the estates of the Misses Hunter, Mark Foy, James Foy, and Patrick Foy have been issued, and the Board's offer has been accepted in the case of Mr. Patrick Foy's estate.
Bromley And Beckenham Joint Hospital
69.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has made any inquiries into the allegations made in connection with the administration of the Bromley and Beckenham Joint Hospital; and whether, in view of the complaints that have been made, and of the fact that patients suffering from infectious diseases have been discharged before being cured, he will have a full and public inquiry into the matter?
I have caused inquiries to be made by my inspectors into the allegations referred to, and their reports do not indicate any marked failure in the administration of the hospital. The Local Government Board are writing to the Joint Hospital Board on the subject generally. At present, I hardly think a public inquiry is necessary.
Poor Law Relief (Oxford Union)
70.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, since the Oxford Local Poor Act of 1854 came into force, the Local Government Board has in the course of its administration treated the overseers in the eleven parishes comprising the union of Oxford as having the same powers of giving relief in kind, orders for medical relief, and orders for the workhouse in eases of sudden and urgent necessity as the overseers of other unions have been treated since that date by the Local Government Board; and, if the overseers of the said eleven parishes are not treated by the Local Government Board as having the same powers as overseers in other parishes, to whom should the poor in the union of Oxford apply for medical or other relief in cases of sudden or other urgent necessity if the only relieving officer of the union is distributing or supervising out relief or otherwise engaged in his duties away from his home and office?
I do not find that the Local Government Board have had occasion in recent years to consider the legal position arising out of the local Act of 1854, or that any difficulty has arisen in connection with the giving of relief in cases of the kind referred to. If, however, my attention is drawn to any such difficulty I shall be happy to give it my consideration.
Lambeth Infirmary (Nurses)
71.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the report of the matron of the Lambeth Infirmary to the guardians regarding the impossibility of obtaining nurses; and whether, in view of the fact that this scarcity of nurses is general and increasing, he will consider how far the disinclination of young women to enter the nursing profession is due to the abuse of nurses' uniforms, the exploitation for gain of undertrained nurses, and other evils connected with the nursing profession and its relation to the sick, that could be remedied by State registration of trained nurses?
I understand that in May last the medical officer reported to the Lambeth Infirmary committee that the matron was finding increasing difficulty in obtaining probationers; that temporary nurses who had to be engaged were expensive, and that the arrangement on the whole was unsatisfactory. Since that date I have sanctioned a substantial increase in the permanent nursing staff. With regard to the general questions raised as to the nursing profession, I may refer to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend on the 8th May.
Is it not the case that this difficulty is very general and that it is an increasing difficulty; and is it not time something should be done to protect the sick from the scarcity of nurses in general?
I am not sure that the plan suggested by my hon. Friend would have that result.
Would the right hon. Gentleman like to receive some evidence upon that point?
I shall be happy to receive any evidence.
Post Office (Dismissal Of Clerk)
38.
asked the Postmaster-General if he satisfied himself by definite and conclusive evidence, before discharging Mr. Cardew from the Post Office, of that gentleman's inability to perform the duty proper to a first-grade clerk; if he was a well-conducted public servant of thirty years' service, who had passed all the prescribed tests and had been certified efficient for many years; if any misconduct was alleged; if Mr. Cardew was given any warning or opportunity of defence; and, if not, as Mr. Cardew's discharge means disgrace and ruin to that gentleman, if he will institute an inquiry into all the circumstances of his case?
Before I agreed to proceed with Mr. Cardew's superannuation, I not only considered very fully the documentary evidence bearing on his case, but consulted personally all the heads of branches in the office of the secretary to the Post Office who had had experience of his work, and found an absolute unanimity of opinion to the effect that Mr. Cardew was unequal to the duties of his position. I did not, moreover, come to a final decision on the matter until Mr. Cardew had received ample opportunities, of which he fully availed himself, for appealing against compulsory superannuation. All the circumstances of Mr. Cardew's case have been most carefully investigated, and there is no room for further inquiry. Mr. Cardew, though he had been repeatedly passed over for promotion and was still in the bottom class of higher division clerks with men twenty years and more younger than himself, had been allowed to proceed to and remain at the maximum pay on that grade. His work had, however, as I informed the hon. Member for Dulwich on the 10th instant, attracted unfavourable notice as far back as 1893, and for some period previous to his discharge his services had been of little if any value to my Department. No charge of misconduct has been brought against Mr. Cardew, whose length of service at the date of his retirement was as stated in the question.
Sub-Postmasters (Sale Of Insurance Stamps)
28.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is in a position to make any statement as to the scale of remuneration to sub-postmasters in Scotland for selling health insurance stamps?
30.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is yet in a position to give a definite decision with regard to the rate of remuneration of sub-postmasters for additional work under the National Insurance Act; and, if not, whether he can promise to do so by some definite date in the near future?
31.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction that exists in regard to the provisional payment to sub-postmasters for their new work in connection with the Insurance Act; what is the reason of the delay in regard to giving a definite decision in this matter; whether the provisional rate is one unit in the scale payment for each £1 of insurance stamps sold, whereas the actual rate in force for postage stamps is eight units for each £1 sold; and whether the rate proposed therefore for selling insurance stamps is only one-eighth of the rate in force for selling postage stamps?
32.
asked when the delay in dealing with the question of extra remuneration to sub-postmasters for increased work caused by the National Insurance Act will end?
33.
asked the Postmaster-General if he can now say whether any remuneration has been fixed by his Department to sub-postmasters for the sale of national insurance stamps; and, if so, what are the conditions?
34.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is now, or when he will be, in a position to state what conclusion has been arrived at as to the remuneration of sub-postmasters for work in connection with the National Insurance Act, and particularly with regard to their remuneration in respect of the sale of insurance stamps?
The Treasury arc not prepared to sanction any payment in addition to that already made on account pending the Report of the Select Committee on Post Office servants. That Report, will, I understand, be issued before the end of the Session, and steps will be taken to deal at once with the Committee's recommendation on this particular subject.
Bailiffs' Wages
40.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that a bailiff who has been employed at the Runcorn County Court for five years is in receipt of a wage of one guinea a week only; whether he is aware that in this particular case the wage now paid is less than it was many years ago; and whether he will take steps to have the whole scale of bailiffs' wages reviewed and made more in keeping with the present cost of living?
I am not aware of any bailiff employed at a wage of one guinea a week by the registrar performing the duties of high bailiff of the County Court of Runcorn. The registrar receives what is believed to be an ample allowance for the service and execution of process within his district, but the number of bailiffs employed and the distribution of the allowance are within his discretion. Some two years ago the allowance was substantially increased. As similar allowances have been revised from time to time on the application of the respective registrars and high bailiffs, I am not aware that there is any case requiring the steps to be taken suggested in the question.
War Office Motor Cars
89.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the excessive speed of the War Office motor cars upon public highways; if his attention has been drawn to the statement made by the police at the Atherstone Police Court on Tuesday that in some cases the War Office motor cars travel at 50 to 60 miles per hour; and whether he intends taking any action in the matter?
I have seen a report in the Press, but I understand that the statements made were not proved. Instructions as to careful and considerate driving have been issued to all drivers of Army motor vehicles.
Imperial Wireless Chain
35.
asked whether, in the event of the establishment of an Imperial wireless chain station at Hong Kong, messages transmitted from the United States, viâ either Honolulu or Manila, by either a private or American Government undertaking, would under our Government monopoly be received and handled; whether His Majesty's postal authorities would arrange to transmit wireless messages to stations under American control; and whether there will be a wireless station at Weihaiwei?
The question of erecting a long-range wireless station at Hong Kong has not yet been decided, and no conclusion has been reached as to the area of communication should such a station be established. So far as I am aware, the establishment of a commercial station at Weihaiwei has not been considered.
36.
asked the Postmaster-General whether, as it is always a matter of difficulty to take away from a contractor his lights under a contract, he will consider the desirability of making the first contract for the erection and equipment of stations for the Imperial wireless service one for three stations only, thus ensuring perfect liberty of action for the Government in regard to succeeding stations; and what is the nature of the conditions under which he proposes to transfer the erection of the second three wireless stations for the Imperial service from the original contractors to any others whose systems may be proved to be more efficient or more economical?
By arranging a contract covering six stations in- stead of three, it has been possible to negotiate the terms under more favourable conditions than if a smaller number were included. In addition, much delay would be avoided in the erection of the second three stations if it is finally decided to proceed with them on the same lines as the first three. The second part of the question can only be adequately answered by reference to the terms of the contract itself.
37.
asked whether it is possible for any foreign country, desiring to do so, to deliberately interfere with the working of the Imperial wireless service by the continuous emission of powerful signals of the same wave length as that employed by the Imperial service; whether this destroys the strategic value of such service; and whether it is impossible to avoid such undesirable interference so long as a spark system is employed?
I am informed that deliberate interference is possible; but it can be overcome to such an extent—whether a spark system or some other system is employed—that the strategic value of the service remains practically intact.
I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he has any statement to make relating to the Marconi Contract?
I anticipated it would have been possible to lay Papers in the beginning or in the middle of last week, but a number of minor points remained for settlement, and one point of very considerable importance has been, the subject of further negotiations with the company. Perhaps I may be allowed, by leave, to explain to the House the alteration which it is proposed to make in the terms of the contract, as I explained them to the House some days ago. As hon. Members who are interested in the matter may be aware, the royalty payable to the Marconi Company under the new contract was to be in respect of each station in the chain of wireless stations in which Marconi patents are still being used and not in respect of the chain as a whole, as was proposed in the original contract. To that the company agreed, and I made the announcement some time ago to the House, but the company found on further inquiry that in respect to the British East Africa Protectorate their inventions were not protected by patents. In East Africa it is proposed to erect the largest of all the stations, capable of communicating and receiving messages to and from Egypt, South Africa, and India, with a vast installation which-will have no fewer than six separate aerials. The company represented that they could not be expected to erect this station for the sum. payable and receive no royalty whatever in respect of the use of their inventions there, and that they were not prepared to do so, but they asked that they should receive such payment as was originally contemplated. I replied that I was not prepared to make this concession to the company unless they were willing to meet my wishes, which I had formerly expressed, with respect to the royalty payments themselves, not only in East Africa but throughout the chain. As hon. Members may be aware, it was proposed that if another system was employed other than the Marconi system, which was free of the Marconi patents, the Marconi system should be discarded completely and no royalty payment would remain, or if the essential Marconi patents expired no royalty would be payable. But it has been represented that it might be desirable to use still some Marconi patents in one portion of the installation while discarding the use of the Marconi system in other portions, and I have made proposals to the company repeatedly with a view to assessing the royalty payments on that basis.
It is not practicable, for reasons on which this is not the occasion to enter, to schedule each patent separately and attach a payment to it, if only for the reason that the contract gives us, not the obligation but the right to use not only all existing patents, but any future patent which may be taken out by Mr. Marconi or which the Marconi Company may have a right to use, without any additional royalty payment whatever—a very favourable clause in the contract. But I have proposed to the company that the royalty, instead of being in respect of the stations as a whole, should be divisible, and that portions of it should be payable in respect to different portions of the installation. I pressed that three times upon the company, and three times the company declined to accede. I only proceeded with the contract after that refusal because of the great difficulty, expense, and delay of the only alternative which was open, the creation of an inexperienced and new staff of Government engineers to carry out this most difficult task. I am glad, however, to be able now to say that in consideration of the concession with regard to East Africa for which the company have pressed, they have now agreed to my proposal with respect to the division of the royalties. The contract will provide that, instead of a 10 per cent. royalty being payable in respect of a station as a single unit, 4 per cent. will be payable in respect of the internal transmitting apparatus—the most important part—2 per cent. in respect of the internal receiving apparatus, 2 per cent. in respect of the external transmitting apparatus, and 2 per cent. in respect of the external receiving apparatus, so that there will be full liberty to discard the Marconi apparatus in respect of one part of a station while retaining it in others, and securing a proportionate reduction of the royalty by so doing. This, of course, is an alteration very favourable indeed to the Government, and I hope that Papers may now be laid in the course of a day or two. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has authorised me to say that, as the Papers are not available to the House, it will be obviously impossible to take the Debate on Friday of this week as was intended. It is intended that on an early day the Government will make a Motion for the ratification of the contract in its amended form.I presume that I am correct that the royalty will still be on the gross receipts, irrespective of whether any profits arc made?
Yes, Sir, the royalty will be on gross receipts.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can give any good reason for driving such a hard bargain on the part of the Government with a company which has given such good value to the nation?
I confess that I have done my best to drive a hard bargain, and I think I have succeeded.
Are we to understand that the royalty will go out pari passu with the dropping out of patents, or will the royalty be payable, even although only one patent remains?
I thought I made it plain that the stations will be divided into four parts, and if any Marconi patent was used in one of these parts, then the royalty will be payable in respect of that part. But if the patent was unimportant and not essential then it would be discarded rather than pay a large royalty, and some other apparatus would be used in place of it. If, on the other hand, the patent was essential to the station, and that portion of the installation could not be worked without it, then the company claim, and I think in the circumstances not unreasonably, that they are entitled to their royalty.
Orders Of The Day
Business Of The House
May I ask the Prime Minister what business will be taken tonight, and also whether he can give an indication when the question of the Marconi Contract will be proceeded with?
We hope, if time permits after the Mental Deficiency Bill, to take the adjourned Debate on the Second Beading of the Elementary Education (Defective and Epileptic Children) Bill and the Committee Stage of the Children (Employment Abroad) Bill tonight. In regard to the other question of the right hon. Gentleman, we no longer propose to take the Marconi Contract discussion next Friday, but I hope we may take it, subject to exigencies which may arise, by the middle of next week. [An HON. MEMBER: 'What day?"] I would rather say that to-morrow.
Mental Deficiency Bill
As amended (in the Standing Committee) considered.
New Clause—(Abolition Of Sentence Of Death In Case Of Defective Prisoner)
"(1) Sentence of death shall not be pronounced on or recorded against any person with respect to whom the Court before which he is convicted is satisfied upon medical evidence that he is a defective; but in lieu thereof the Court shall sentence him to be detained during His Majesty's pleasure, and, if so sentenced, he shall be liable to be detained in such place and under such conditions as the Secretary of State may direct, and whilst so detained shall be deemed to be in legal custody.
(2) The Court may act either upon the evidence given during the trial or may call for further medical or other evidence.
(3) Without prejudice and in addition to the provisions of the Criminal Appeal Act, 1907, where sentence of death is pronounced on or recorded against any person, it shall be lawful for that person (with the leave of the Court of Criminal Appeal or upon the certificate of the judge who tried him that it is a fit case for appeal under this Sub-section) to appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal against the sentence on the ground that he is a defective, and upon such an appeal the Court of Criminal Appeal, if satisfied upon medical evidence that he is a defective, shall substitute for the sentence of death a sentence of detention during His Majesty's pleasure, and the appellant shall then be liable to be dealt with as though he had been originally sentenced by the Court before which he was convicted under Subsection (1) of this Section.
(4) Nothing in this Section shall affect His Majesty's prerogative of mercy.
(5) This Section shall apply notwithstanding that the crime was committed or that the proceedings were instituted before the commencement of this Act.
(6) Section two of the Offences against the Person Act, 1861, is hereby repealed, so far as that Section is inconsistent with this Section."
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
There is no doubt that this Bill was brought forward to relieve from the ordinary penalties of the law many persons who are not responsible for their actions. The people to whom I refer are really like children, and the object of the new Clause is to bring them within the scope of the Bill. Clause 8 of the Bill deals with the procedure in cases of persons guilty of offences punishable with imprisonment and penal servitude. If these persons, when brought before the Courts and found guilty, are found to be defectives, they could not be sentenced to penal servitude, to which they would be sentenced if not defectives. That reason itself is sufficient for extending the provisions of the Bill to those cases where murders have been committed and the death sentence may have been pronounced. There are other parts of the Bill which for the first time bring defectives under the same category, irrespective of age, as children and young persons. It may be urged that Clauses 2, 4, and 5 of this Bill might become operative in the cases I am appealing for, but these Clauses will work slowly. In the first place, Clause 2 provides that a person who is defective may be dealt with; Clause 4 gives power to deal with a defective otherwise than at the instance of the parent or guardian; and Clause 5 tells how orders made by a judicial authority are to be enforced. A petition has to be presented, two medical certificates have to be obtained, and a statutory declaration has to be made. I submit to the House that that is the process to be followed in a case where sentence of death has been pronounced. Taking that into consideration, and bearing in mind the fact that defectives are not more responsible for their actions than children, we ought to extend the powers conferred by the Bill to the most serious offence of all.I entirely agree with my hon. Friend's concluding words, that if the Bill proposed to treat defective persons exactly as children, it would seem to point to the conclusion that this new Clause ought to be accepted. But I would point out to my hon. Friend that there is on the present occasion, a reason for departing from the analogy of the Children Act. I quite agree with him that, in the case of a defective person, the death penalty ought not to be applied, but the question which we have to consider is: which is the proper authority for deciding whether the death penalty in the case under discussion is or is not applicable. There are obviously three authorities whose decision might be final. There is, first of all, the jury; there is then the judge; and then there is, last of all, the Home Secretary on recommendation to His Majesty. With regard to leaving to the jury the option of giving a verdict of "guilty but defective," the Royal Commissioners and the whole body of the judges have recommended that no such verdict ought to be allowed. There is, as my hon. Friends know, at the present time a verdict which may be given by a jury of "guilty, but insane." That is a question which is properly left to the jury, but all the authorities have agreed that we ought not to leave it to the jury to decide whether a prisoner is or is not defective. Therefore, in drawing up this Bill we have not proposed that the jury should have any such power. The next question is: should we proceed upon the line suggested by my hon. Friend and give to the judge a power which we would refuse to the jury? It is obviously, I think, undesirable, to give to the judge a power which we withdraw from the jury on a question of fact. It is true that in other parts of the Bill, where the issue is not so important we do allow the judicial authority to decide whether a prisoner is or is not defective. But when we come to a trial for murder, the whole body of the evidence will be directed to the question whether the prisoner is or is not guilty. The question of defectiveness will only come up as a second issue. I recognise, and the whole Bill recognises, that a judicial authority if competent to decide the question, but I am dealing now with the question whether it is more prudent to leave the decision of the question in the hands of the judge, or, as it would be now, in the hands of the Home Secretary.
When the case comes up before the Home Secretary he will have an opportunity which in Court it is impossible to give. He will be able to inquire into the circumstances of the case, quite apart from, the question of guilty or not guilty. He will be able to call evidence as to the whole life history of the prisoner, and he will be able to obtain lengthened medical evidence as to the state of the man's mind, which is not open to the judge. If the judge has the power and does not exercise it, but comes to the conclusion on such evidence as is before him that the prisoner is not defective, it is bound to have an influence upon the Home Secretary when he comes to consider the same question, whereas if the Home Secretary can consider the whole question of defectiveness or non-defectiveness, de novo, ab origine, he is in a better position to form a definite conclusion. In the interests of the defective prisoner, I would suggest to my hon. Friend that he would be better advised to leave the decision of the point in the hands of the Home Secretary, as it is now, instead of in the hands of the judge, and it is solely on that ground that I ask him not to go on with this Amendment. It may be said, and my hon. Friend has said in fact, that in other parts of the Bill we do leave the decision of this very point to the judicial authority. But look at the difference in the two sets of cases. Should the judicial authority make a mistake in the first instance under the Bill and decide that a person is or is not defective, that decision is always open to review; but if, in the case where the prisoner is found guilty of murder, the judge's decision is final, and if the judge wrongly declares the prisoner defective, that prisoner cannot suffer the death penalty for his crime. If the judge, on the other hand, determines that a prisoner is not defective, though it would not be conclusive on the Home Secretary, it would go a very long way with him, and he would be most reluctant to overrule the decision of a judicial authority who had come to the conclusion, after hearing the evidence, that the prisoner is not defective. For these reasons I would suggest to my hon. Friend that he would be better advised not to interfere with the present practice upon this point, but to leave the decision in the hands of the Secretary of State.The right hon. Gentleman has I think come to the right conclusion, though I think he has come to it by arguments and reasons which go against the Bill as a whole. However, as I am opposed to the Bill, as a whole, I think that the arguments of the Home Secretary on this Amendment show one of the difficulties which are sure to arise if the Bill becomes law. We really do not know, and nobody ever will be able to ascertain whether a person is really defective or not. The case which the hon. Gentleman has brought forward in this new Clause is that in which a person kills someone else and there is medical evidence— on which I, personally, place very little reliance in a subject of this sort, for it means to say that one or two doctors can be induced to say that in their opinion the person who is accused is mentally deficient—and then the question arises, what is to happen? The murderer is to be kept alive at the expense of the community because these two doctors say that he is mentally deficient. What security have we that in a very short time, if he really is mentally deficient, he will not go and commit another crime of a similar sort; and if he is not mentally deficient, then there can be no doubt whatever that he ought to suffer the penalty of his crime. Now, we have a tribunal in last resort: that is the Home Secretary. Whether that tribunal is always satisfactory or not depends of course upon who occupies the position for the time being. I think that we must not discuss that point, but we must take it that, as a general rule, the decisions of the Home Secretary have been more or less satisfactory. In those circumstances I think that the hon. Gentleman would be well advised to withdraw this Amendment. I do not know whether he is a supporter of the Bill or not. If he is a supporter, I think that the best thing that he can do is to withdraw the Amendment, and if he is an opponent, I congratulate him on having brought forward this Clause which shows how very absurd the Bill itself is and what difficulties will arise if it becomes an Act of Parliament.
4.0 P.M.
I am extremely grateful to the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Higham) for bringing forward this Amendment, which seems to me to dot the i's and cross the t's of this Bill. There are certain definitions in this Bill of mentally defective persons which are of a wide and embracing character, and after the Bill is passed numbers of people in this country will try to avoid coming within the four corners of those definitions. But on one solitary occasion people might like to come within the definition of what constitutes a defective person. If they have committed a murder they might try to escape the death penalty by getting inside the definition. The Home Secretary knows that those definitions are not only wide definitions, but that every murderer can perfectly well prove to be a defective under paragraphs (c) and (d), as that would be a means of upsetting the criminal law he refuses this Amendment. Just reverse the process and consider the position of the unfortunate person who is trying to avoid coming within the definition and who is classed as a defective and to be kept a prisoner for life. The definitions show him no mercy, while the murderer is not allowed to have the advantages which it would give him to be able to prove himself to be a defective. It seems to me that the proper thing to do is to make those definitions water-tight, so that neither the innocent man can be proved to be defective nor the murderer to prove himself to be defective. By doing so you get rid of the difficulty and at the same time of the scandal of passing the sentence of death on a man who is not fully responsible for his actions owing to defective intellect.
I do think defectives should have the advantages just as much as the penalties, and I hope my hon. Friend will go to a Division and that we shall secure for the defectives privileges as well as the liabilities and dangers which this Bill brings for the whole community. One other thing strikes me, and that is the hypocrisy of the whole thing. Here you are bringing in Amendments so that persons who are defective may avoid having the death penalty with the judge assuming the black cap and all the rest of it. You are very tender to prevent that being done, but it might be well for this House to consider whether a sentence of perpetual imprisonment such as this Bill provides is not even worse than the death sentence.The hon. Member is dealing with the main principles of the Bill and getting rather away from the Clause now under discussion.
For myself, I would rather have the death penalty than perpetual imprisonment under this Bill.
I am not quite satisfied with the objections which have been raised against the new Clause by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. I think that in the interests both of the defectives and of the judge who presides that the death penalty in cases like this ought to be abolished. Any person who has been present in Court knows how gruesome it is and how very much judges dislike in cases such as infanticide to pass the death sentence when they know full well that the sentence will never take effect. The Home Secretary based his opposition to this Clause on two points. First of all, he said it would be wrong to make the judge the judge of facts in this case. I do not want to refer to any person in the Home Office, past or present, but with all respect, I say that the judge is a much better judge of the facts, having heard all the evidence, than a Home Secretary could possibly be. The judge has got the jury behind him and hears learned doctors on one side or the other, and he has also got his own common sense, which one always finds, especially in murder trials, present to the minds of the judges in English Courts. The Home Secretary went on to say that so far as the medical evidence was concerned he could have traced in the Home Office the history of the defective. As a matter of fact, what actually does happen in a case of this sort is that doctors are produced on both sides, and the judge is in a position to hear the evidence given by the medical men, and if with the assistance of the jury, he does come to the conclusion that the man is defective, I think he ought not to be asked by this House to pass the death sentence upon the defective in question. I would like to hear this new Clause discussed at greater length, but so far as I am concerned at the present time I am inclined to take the view of the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Higham), and to say that in a case of this kind no English judge should be forced to pass what is the most terrible of all sentences upon any defective.
I should not have risen to make any observation on this new Clause were it not for what fell from the Home Secretary. His statement was of a sufficiently startling character to cause me to interpose one or two observations. At the present time the law is that a man cannot excuse himself for killing any person unless at the time he did not know the nature of the act which he committed. That is the law of England. The Home Secretary said, and it was a very startling statement, that if on inquiry he discovered that the person was mentally defective he would exercise, or advise the exercise, of the prerogative of the Crown of commuting the sentence. I should like to know more explicitly from the right hon. Gentleman whether that is what he means, because in that case all that is necessary henceforth in a murder case is to satisfy the Home Secretary afterwards that the person is mentally defective. That is an extraordinary defence to the crime of murder, because when we came to examine the definition of a mentally defective person we find it is not an idiot or an imbecile, but a person "in whose case their exists from birth or from early age mental defectiveness not amounting to idiocy, yet so pronounced that they are incapable of managing themselves or their affairs." Does the Home Secretary really mean that the prerogative of the Crown is to be exercised in the case of persons who are mentally defective? In that case, the law of murder is abrogated, because in the vast majority of cases, I think, it would be possible to demonstrate, ad nauseam, that the person against whom the murder charge lies is, under this definition, mentally defective. That is the first absurdity in which we are landed in respect of the provisions of this Bill, but it does not end there.
There is the further absurdity in the case of a man charged with manslaughter, rape, burglary with violence, grievous bodily harm, the intention to commit grievous bodily harm, and attempted murder. In all those offences it is open to the prisoner under Section 2 to raise the defence that he is mentally defective, and if he is mentally defective, then the judge at the trial has full power to investigate any evidence which he can call in order to ascertain whether or not the person is mentally defective. If he is, having committed attempted murder, the judge orders him to be detained in an institution. On the other hand, in the reverse case, if the Home Secretary is satisfied that the person is mentally defective then he absolutely revolutionises the law of England, and the person, although he knew the nature of the act, is decided to be mentally defective and is sent to an institution to be maintained at the expense of the State. I really think the Home Secretary ought to throw more light on this interesting problem. It seems to me, if his statement is to be accepted, that we are entirely changing the law of England with regard to homicide. If that is so, the sooner we know it the better.I do not desire in the least to interpose in the controversy between the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken and the Home Secretary. I desire to recall the attention of the Committee to the precise terms of the new Clause with which alone we are concerned. The new Clause assumes that a verdict of guilty of murder has been returned against a person who is mentally defective by the jury, and on that assumption it is based. In the first place, it is highly improbable that any such contingency will occur. It is well known, I think, to any of us whose lot it has been to prosecute in a Criminal Court, that juries are notoriously timid nowadays in bringing in a verdict of guilty on the capital charge. That is an increasing tendency, and I think I am right in saying that juries, if they can find any excuse at all in order to avoid doing so, readily seize upon it. That is the first reason why I say that it is highly unlikely that this contingency will ever occur. There is another reason why it is very improbable, and it is this: All the evidence with regard to the alleged mental state of the person who is on his trial will be as fully before the jury as it is before the judge. They will be able to appreciate on a question of fact, just as fully as the judge can do, the value and the effect which ought to be given to that evidence. Coupling those two considerations together, the shrinking which the jury feel from, bringing in a verdict on the capital charge and the exceeding improbability of their doing so in a case where there is evidence that the person who is charged is mentally deficient, I submit to the House it is extremely improbable that the contingency will arise. If it should arise, then I suggest to the House that the proposal embodied in the Amendment is a highly undesirable proposal. What does it involve? It involves this, that the judge who presides at the trial may not only differ from, but disregard and defy the verdict that the jury has returned upon the evidence.
Only in one direction.
Yes, only in one direction; but I think it is a most invidious proposal that when judge and jury differ upon a question of fact the judge should have the right to override the view which the jury take, whether it be on the side of mercy or not on the side of mercy. I think that is a most invidious proposal, and one which the House should not sanction, especially in view of the fact that the Home Secretary will have the fullest opportunity of coming to a right decision. I do not really appreciate the argument of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty when he says that a judge will be in a better position than the Home Secretary to deal with a matter of this kind. The judge may be asked to decide on the spot without full information or advice, and without full opportunity of considering all the factors of the case; on the other hand, the Home Secretary has an opportunity to consider the whole life history of the man concerned.
I do not wish to interrupt; but would it not be sufficient, supposing the defence was raised that the prisoner was defective, for the defective or his solicitor to produce in the Court medical evidence to prove that fact, and for the Crown to produce rebutting evidence?
I quite agree. That does not in the least interfere with the argument I was endeavouring to present to the House, namely, that the Home Secretary was in a better position to deal with the matter than the judge. I assume that, as the hon. Member has stated, there may be evidence on both sides presented to the Court. The judge has to consider and decide upon that evidence while he sits on the bench, without time for mature and careful consideration, a very momentous matter; while the Home Secretary will have an opportunity of fuller consideration and investigation than would be possible if the Amendment were carried. Therefore his decision would be more likely to be the proper one than that which a judge could be expected to give under the different circumstances to which I have referred. I do not think the judiciary of the United Kingdom would thank the House if we imposed upon them the duty which this Amendment seeks to place upon them. I respectfully urge my hon. and learned Friend to withdraw it.
I should like to point out to the House what would be the real effect of this Clause. A man who had committed a murder could escape the death penalty if he proved that he was defective within the meaning of this Act. I must trouble the House to look at the definition. It deals with idiots, imbeciles, feeble-minded persons, and moral imbeciles, and it defines the last as "persons who from an early age display some permanent mental defect coupled with strong vicious or criminal propensities on which punishment has little or no deterrent effect." That is to say, that the person is mentally abnormal, that punishment has never had any effect upon him, and that therefore the penalty should not be inflicted upon him. It would reduce the Bill to absolute absurdity if we adopted a Clause of this sort. The definitions are not by any means clear. No one can distinguish between the different classes of defectives. I hope we will not add another absurdity to the Bill, which is already full of a large number of absurdities.
I agree with the hon. Member who has just sat down with regard to the undesirability of adopting such a Clause as this. I should like to call the attention of the House to definition (d) which the hon. Member also has just called attention to. Of course, it is impossible to consider a Clause of the sort which is before us without considering these definitions. It is quite impossible to deal with this matter unless we get an idea as to what is to be a defective person. The House will see that among these definitions of defective persons is—
It would puzzle anyone who was going to define the ordinary kind of habitual criminal to define it very much better than in those terms. I speak on this matter with no little experience of the Criminal Court, and I consider these words are most apt words to describe the habitual criminal of the ordinary type. It seems to me that if this Clause is adopted what you will practically do is to grant a charter to the habitual criminal to go about murdering with impunity. That is a very grave matter. We are not at the moment considering the Definition Clause, but I do agree with the hon. and learned Member for one of the Divisions of Durham who said we are trying to bring about a revolution, or little short of a revolution, in the criminal law by coupling such a Clause as this with such definition. I certainly hope that the hon. Member who has proposed this Clause will see the expediency of withdrawing it; and, if it is in order for me to express an opinion on it at this moment, I do hope that when we come to Secton (d) of the Definition Clause we shall hear from the Government some very considerable modification of it."Moral imbeciles, that is to say, persons who from an early age display some permanent mental defect coupled with strong vicious or criminal propensities on which punishment has little or no deterrent effect."
My hon. and learned Friend who has just sat down has opposed this new Clause because he is dissatisfied with the definition in Section 2. That seems to be an insufficient reason for objecting to the Clause. The definitions, it seems to me, should stand on their own feet. If the definitions are absurd that is a reason for removing them from the Bill, but no reason for giving protection under this Clause to defectives who have committed crime. The real question which the House has to decide is not the frequency of the contingency arising, which seemed the dominating idea in the mind of my hon. Friend for a Division of Durham, but the question which is the best authority to exercise the discretion. The Home Secretary has admitted that the discretion should be exercised with regard to those who come within the definition contained in Section 2. He says that the discretion should be used by the Home Secretary; the new Clause proposes that the discretion, should be in the hands of the judge. I prefer the latter alternative, and for the following reasons: It is in accordance with the scheme of the Bill. The Bill provides that in the case of every crime or offence short of murder it shall be the duty of the judge to ascertain whether the criminal or offender is a defective within the meaning of the Act, and that he shall be entitled to make an order accordingly. It seems, therefore, only in accordance with the principles of the Bill itself that no exception should be made in the case of murder. It is regarded as a judicial matter in respect of all other offences, why then should it be treated as an administrative question in relation to murder alone? But that is not the sole consideration. At the present time, with regard to murder, two questions only are tried, whether in fact the prisoner is found guilty of the murder, and whether he knew the nature of his guilt. If this Clause is included in the Bill, then a further question will also have to be considered, namely, as to whether he is defective within the meaning of this Act. In these circumstances notice will be given to the defence that the question whether or not the prisoner is mentally defective will also be considered and determined by the judge. Under these circumstances it will be the duty of those who have the defence laid upon them to bring evidence as to whether he is defective or not, and having that evidence before him, I hold that the judge will be in the very best position to determine whether he is mentally defective. I think it will certainly be more satisfactory from the point of view of the jury and of the prisoner himself that it should be done in open Court, rather than behind the closed doors of the Home Office. I do not think it is always satisfactory to refer matters such as this to the Home Office. When the Home Office exercises on behalf of the Crown the prerogative of mercy we are always told that it is contrary to practice to state the reasons upon which that is done. It may be because a man is defective that sentence is commuted; it may be because in the opinion of the Home Office the evidence is not satisfactory; but whatever be the reason for the exercise of the prerogative no reason is given if inquiry is made at the Home Office. On the other hand, we are told that juries do not convict in capital cases; that the reason is that they are afraid that conviction by them will mean with absolute certainty that the prisoner will suffer the capital penalty; and that therefore juries make verdicts contrary to the evidence because of the penalty that will be incurred. If juries know that the question whether or not the prisoner is defective will subsequently be taken into consideration by the judge, then they will give their verdict honestly and in accordance with the evidence that is put before them. The meaning of this Clause is not that habitual offenders will be able to commit murder with impunity. The procedure of this Clause is better than that which the Home Secretary approves, and I hope that his appreciation for his own Department will not lead him to resist this Clause. I am going to vote for the adoption of the Clause.
The main question at issue is whether, in addition to lunacy, we are to require the fact that a man committing a crime was, at the time, a defective. It seems to me that there is another question, and that is this: Whether this House is justified in passing this Bill at all. As one of those who supported—
I think that question is one which arises on the Third Reading.
I was only going to say—and I suggest that it was quite relevant—that it having been said in justification for this Bill that these people, having been confined for the reason that they were either dangerous to themselves or to the community—for the reason and in view of the fact that they were not answerable for their own action—that that justification for giving powers to confine them is the very reason why we should go further and ask whether the acts committed by these people are or are not such as to bring them within the criminal law? Is there not justification when the Home Office incarcerates them as defectives for not treating these people as ordinary criminals; because, after all, the assumption underlying the whole of our criminal law is that not only has a man knowingly to commit an act, but also wilfully? In the case of a lunatic it is not suggested in Court that he has committed the offence wilfully, for the simple reason that he is taken to be insane. We are legislating with the purpose, practically, of putting another class outside the pale of the law. In any event we are going to deprive them in their own interests or in the interests of the community of that freedom which they have hitherto enjoyed. I do submit that if we are justified in depriving them of their freedom we are certainly not justified on the evidence in saying that when they commit crimes they are equally liable with other persons whom we deem to be sane. The other issue that arises is this: We are bound to place discretion either in the Home Office or the Court which deals with the case. I say, quite frankly, I prefer to leave it to the judge and jury—not that I reflect upon or have any disrespect for the decision of the right hon. Gentleman or his predecessors. But it is perfectly well known that whilst the authority for advising the exercise of the clemency of the Crown does devolve upon the Home Secretary personally, there is no doubt the greater part of the work and the actual decision in a good many cases devolves upon one of his subordinates. For that reason I shall support the Clause.
The fate of this Clause will depend upon the question of what a defective is, as defined by the Bill. I should be in. favour of deleting the Clause, of voting against it, but I do not understand that there is any hope in that direction. The hon. and learned Member for Norwich suggested that possibly the Government would modify on Report the definitions which are at the bottom of this Bill. I see no proposed Amendment from the Home Secretary, and I am fully convinced, having served on the Committee upstairs, that the Government intend to push this Bill through in the very raw condition in which it now is, and that the definitions will not in any way be modified. Assuming, therefore, that the definitions will remain as they are, I cannot base my vote upon that question at all. I cannot vote with those hon. Members who have suggested that the definitions are so wide that if you pass this Clause you practically suggest to murderers generally that they can escape under this definition of defectives. That being out of the discussion, I must say that I am in favour of this Clause. The arguments put forward by the Home Secretary did not seem to me to be in any way strong enough to induce any Member to vote against this Clause. Those arguments were two. In the first place, the Home Secretary thought that the judge was not the proper person to decide the question as to whether the person found guilty was a defective and should not be hung. He suggested that the evidence on which the judge would have to act might not be sufficient for the purpose of saying as to whether the person was or was not a defective, and would be brought in incidentally.
I do not understand the Clause in that way. I understand that if the judge, during the course of a trial, has an idea from the evidence that the prisoner who is being tried is a defective that he is not bound to confine himself, in considering that question, under the terms of this Amendment, to the evidence which has been produced by the time the jury has found the prisoner guilty, but that he can himself afterwards, quite independently of the evidence which has been produced at the trial, call medical evidence to satisfy himself as to whether or not the prisoner is a defective. I quite agree that on the issue of whether a murder has or has not been committed by the prisoner that the evidence in regard to his being found a defective might be very slight—in fact, it might only arise incidentally. Once it has arisen in the mind of the judge, according to the terms of this Amendment, it will, I say, be open to him to go into that question exhaustively, and to have evidence before him on that issue quite apart from the jury. Under these circumstances, does the Home Secretary suggest that the inquiry held, as suggested a moment ago, behind closed doors, and probably by subordinates, is satisfactory? Because the Home Secretary surely cannot and does not conduct all inquiries of this kind; he must be aided by subordinates of his Department, and an inquiry of that kind is unsatisfactory when we are introducing practically a new principle into our criminal law, and when we come to examine prisoners, not because they are lunatics, but because they are defectives and come within the limit of the rather wide Definition Clauses of this Bill? Can it be said that such an investigation would be more satisfactory to the public at large than an inquiry held by a judge in open Court, where everybody that is interested in the matter can go and hear the question fought out and considered on its merits—as to whether the person guilty is such a defective within the meaning of this Bill as entitles him to have the capital punishment dispensed with? The Home Secretary's first reason was entirely based upon that, that the judge was not anything like as good an authority on a. very important question of this kind as was the right hon. Gentleman himself in his official capacity, or his successor. I cannot agree with him. I suggest to the House that if we are to have this question arising at all—I am very sorry indeed that we must have it—but if this Bill goes through—and I fear it will—it will be much better if the judge at the trial settled this important question. Before I deal with the other reason put forward by the right hon. Gentleman, I would like to say that it is a most remarkable fact that though this important Amendment is put forward on behalf of six hon. Members of this House, only one of those is here so far as I can see. The only hon. Member here who is responsible for this Amendment is the hon. Member who moved the Motion. I do not find the name on the list of the hon. Member who-seconded the Motion. I must, if I get the opportunity, vote in favour of this proposed new Clause. The second reason given by the right hon. Gentleman for refusing to support this Clause seems to me a very much weaker one than his first reason. He suggests that if you give the judge the power to inquire into this matter, and decide upon it, that if he should decide against the prisoner, and the matter came up before the Home Secretary—as it will have a right to do under the terms of the Amendment—that that would influence the Home Secretary. Where could you find a weaker argument than that? The judge, of course, would have his evidence before him to decide, and he would decide as he saw fit upon the evidence. How can that be conclusive or influence in any way, or take away from the responsibility of the Home Secretary in deciding a question over again, not necessarily on the same evidence at all, but under a different responsibility altogether? These are the two arguments, and the only two arguments, which have been put forward by the Government as to why this new Clause should not be adopted. If the Government had put forward the argument which has been put forward by several hon. Members that the definitions are so wide that it would not be safe at all to allow defectives coming within those definitions to be excused in the case of murder, I should have understood it, and I should have felt inclined to join with the right hon. Gentleman in opposing the Clause itself. As a matter of fact, he could not do that. The moment
Division No. 208.]
| AYES.
| [4.45 p.m.
|
| Adamson, William | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Radford, G. H. |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Henderson. J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Alden, Percy | Higham, John Sharp | Sutherland, John E. |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | John, Edward Thomas | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Barnes, George N | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Thomas, J. H. |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Bowerman, Charles W | Macpherson, James Ian | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Martin, Joseph | Wardle, George J. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Morrell, Philip | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Cassel, Felix | Neilson, Francis | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Newman, John R. P. | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Clynes, John R. | O'Grady, James | |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Outhwaite, R. L. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Pringle and Mr. J. M. Hogge. |
| Goldstone, Frank | Pointer, Joseph | |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Beale, Sir William Phipson | Burns, Rt. Hon. John |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Beck, Arthur Cecil | Byles, Sir William Pollard |
| Arnold, Sydney | Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Bethell, Sir J. H. | Chapple, Dr. William Allen |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Clancy, John Joseph |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Boland, John Plus | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Booth, Frederick Handel | Clough, William |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Brady, Patrick Joseph | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Barnston, Harry | Bridgeman, William Clive | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Brunner, John F. L. | Crumley, Patrick |
| Barton, William | Burke, E. Haviland- | Cullinan, John |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Burn, Colonel C. R. | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) |
he does that, he impugns the propriety of the definition which he has introduced into this Bill. We have then only these two arguments, the first, that the judge is not a fit tribunal, or as good as the Home Secretary himself, with which I have endeavoured to deal; and, the second, that if the judge be given a power and his decision is against the prisoner, that he would influence unfavourably the Home Secretary with regard to his consideration of the question when it came before him. I ask the House to consider whether these two arguments, and the only two put forward by the hon. Gentleman to exclude this very beneficial and reasonable Clause from the Bill are sufficient! So far as I am concerned, they are not sufficient. I hope my hon. Friend will press the matter to a Division, and although I am opposed to the Bill, very strongly opposed to it—and did all I could in Committee, and am prepared to do what I can here against it—assuming that we must have it, it is desirable to make it as good as we can under the circumstances. For that purpose I shall vote for this Amendment.
Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
The House divided: Ayes, 44; Noes, 257.
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardiganshire) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Delany, William | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Quitter, Sir William Eley C. |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Joyce, Michael | Reddy, Michael |
| Devlin, Joseph | Keating, Matthew | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Dewar, Sir J. A. | Kellaway, Frederick George | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Kelly, Edward | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Kilbride, Denis | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Doris, William | King, Joseph | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S.Molton) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Lardner, James C. R. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Duncannon, Viscount | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Rowlands, James |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Leach, Charles | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Sanders, Rocert Arthur |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Sandys, G. J. |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Falconer, James | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Lundon, Thomas | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Fell, Arthur | Lynch, A. A. | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Sheehy, David |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | McGhee, Richard | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Maclean, Donald | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Field, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Fitzgibbon, John | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Stanier, Beville |
| Forster, Henry William | Mallaby-Deeley, Harry | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Meagher, Michael | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Gilmour, Captain J. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Ginnell, Laurence | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C | Menzies, Sir Walter | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Glanville, H. J. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Molloy, Michael | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Greig, Colonel J. W. | Molteno, Percy Alport | Tennant, Harold John |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, North) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Mooney, John J. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Morgan, George Hay | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Morison, Hector | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hackett, John | Muldoon, John | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Munro, Robert | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Webb, H. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Weston, Colonel J. W. |
| Hayward, Evan | Nuttall, Harry | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Hazleton, Richard | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Helmsley, Viscount | O'Connor. T. P. (Liverpool) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | O'Doherty, Philip | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) | O'Dowd, John | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Henry, Sir Charles | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Hills, John Waller | O'Malley, William | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Hinds, John | O'Shanghnessy, P. J. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Shee, James John | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Hodge, John | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | Parker, James (Halifax) | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Parry, Thomas H. | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Younger, Sir George |
| Horner, Andrew Long | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Perkins, Walter F. | |
| Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) | Peto, Basil Edward |
New Clause—(Misstatements)
"(1) Any person who makes a wilful misstatement of any material fact in any petition or statement of particulars under this Act shall be guilty of a misdemeanour.
(2) Any person who makes a wilful misstatement of fact in any medical or other certificate, or in any statement or report of bodily or mental condition, under this Act shall be guilty of a misdemeanour.
(3) A prosecution for a misdemeanour under this Section shall not take place except by order of the Board, or by direction of the Attorney-General, or the Director of Public Prosecutions."
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
I only propose to formally move this new Clause, because I am informed by the Home Secretary it is unnecessary, and if he will just explain to the House why it is unnecessary, I think it will be satisfactory. The Clause is intended to make it punishable for any person to make a wilful misstatement. Of course the House will understand that under this Bill a great deal is allowed to doctors and medical practitioners. They draw up certificates of various kinds, and it seems to me and my hon. Friends it is very important that the danger they incur by making misstatements should be brought before the eyes of medical practitioners who sign these certificates. The Home Secretary says this provision is already in the Perjury Act. But even if it is already in the Perjury Act I suggest that it would be advisable to put it into, this Bill, because you are giving such wide powers to medical practitioners. Then, again, you have got to remember that every year to begin with, and then every five years, fresh certificates are to be signed by the medical officers in institutions as to the health of individual patients, and there, in case of misstatements being made, you consign a person to another long period of imprisonment, and it may be to imprisonment for life. I think it is very important that the medical officers of institutions who will have this Bill before them, and who will know it inside and outside, should also have this Clause before them. They will not know anything about this Clause in the Perjury Act, and this Clause in this Bill would be a definite reminder that what they set their hands to should be the truth, the whole, truth and nothing but the truth. Therefore, I think, although this Clause exists in the Perjury Act, it would be well to insert it in this Bill also.I beg to second the Motion.
As my right hon. Friend has said, Sub-sections (1) and (2) of this Clause are covered by the previous enactment of 1911, Section 5, which says:—
I think my hon. Friend will agree that these two Sub-sections are covered by that Section. As to Sub-section (3) of the Clause, as my hon. Friend is anxious to get this declaration as quickly as possible, I hardly think he will be anxious to press it."If any person knowingly and wilfully makes (otherwise than an oath) a statement false in a material particular and the statement is made in a statutory declaration.……or any oral declaration or oral answer, which he is required to make by, under, or in pursuance of any public general Act of Parliament for the time being in force, he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and shall be liable on conviction thereof, on indictment, to imprisonment with or without hard labour, to any term not exceeding two years, or to a fine, or to both such imprisonment and fine."
In that case, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, although I have not had an answer about my desire to repeat these Perjury Clauses in this Bill.
It is not necessary.
Proposed Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Part I—Power And Manner Of Dealing With Defectives
Powers of Dealing with Defectives.
Clause 1—(Definition Of Defectives)
"The following classes of persons who are mentally defective shall be deemed to be defectives within the meaning of this Act:—
5.0 P.M.
I beg to move to leave out paragraph (c). We are not asking to leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) because they deal with imbeciles who are pretty easily distinguishable. There is not much difficulty in discovering whether a person is an idiot or an imbecile. It is only when we come to the definition of what constitutes feebleminded persons that we come to the real difficulty so far as definition is concerned. We want the House to understand what feeble-minded persons are; that is to say, persons in whose case there exists from birth or from an early age, defective-ness not amounting to imbecility. If it does not amount to imbecility, you have to refer to the previous definition of what constitutes an imbecile. These are persons in whose case there exists from birth or early age mental defectiveness not amounting to idiocy, which renders them incapable of managing themselves or their affairs; but feeble-minded persons are people who are not so defective that they are incapable of managing themselves or their own affairs, or in other words, they are persons who are capable of managing themselves and their own affairs. Does this House really mean to say that they want to have the power given to the Home Secretary or the Courts of Justice to lock up for life people who are capable of managing themselves or their own affairs? You are really, under this definition, giving power to a Police Court magistrate or stipendiary, or any untrained justice of the peace, approved by the Home Secretary, to pass a sentence on some miserable offender who has committed some trifling crime against some local by-laws, and to lock him up for life simply on the ground that although he is able to manage himself and his own affairs, yet his defectiveness is so pronounced that he requires care, supervision, and control for his own protection or for the protection of others. It is the wording of that sentence I want to call attention to in particular. Whereas the care, control, and supervision for their own protection is a reasonable sort of definition, when once you put in that they require care, supervision, or control in the interests of other persons, you immediately introduce the thin edge of that wedge which the hon. Member for Stirlingshire (Dr. Chapple) is always so anxious to drive home, the thin edge of the wedge of the Eugenic theory. What is, or what is not, for the protection of others? According to the hon. Member for Stirlingshire, it is for the protection of other people, that people who are bad breeders should not be allowed to breed, that they should have operations performed on them so that they should not be able to breed.
I never in any of my arguments used that argument at all in favour of this Bill. I have justified the Bill in the interests of those whom it is designed to protect, and those alone.
It is difficult to know exactly what the hon. Member's arguments are. I have read all his speeches, and he undoubtedly represents in this House that school of thought whose object it is to protect the interests of the future of the race by sterilising and segregating the mentally defective, and it is in the interests of that sort of person that you have got this particular wording of Sub-clause (c), "for the protection of others." That means for the protection of others against the breeding of persons undesirable in the interests of the race. I do urge upon this House to cut out this definition of feeble-minded persons altogether. That will leave in the Bill idiots and imbeciles, the two classes of persons who are already able to be put in institutions; but it will leave out this definition, whose very vagueness, as has been shown in the previous debate, is such that the Home Secretary would not tolerate it as a protection for the defective prisoner, if he had to prove himself to be a feeble-minded person. It is so vague that it cannot be used as a plea against justice, and in that case it should not be left in its present vague position. It is possible for any police magistrate, and for any justice of the peace, approved by the Home Secretary, who may happen to share, and many of them do share, the views of the hon. Member for Stirlingshire, and of the Eugenic Council—that these should be able to consign people who are capable of managing themselves and their own affairs to prison for life under this Bill. It would be impossible to get the House voluntarily to cut out the whole definition of feeble-minded persons, but I trust that we shall have very radical Amendments to this Sub-section, and that we shall have a definition ultimately evolved which does, give some safeguard to the ordinary citizens of this country. We all know very well when we were at school the number of backward children there were in the school who afterwards proved themselves to be admirable citizens, and who very often preferred games and the open air and looking at birds and trees to doing their lessons. Are we going to say that all such children should be segregated for life because they are a danger to society?
Not at all.
Then I will finish the definition for the hon. Member for Stirlingshire. The last part of the definition is this: "or in the case of children are incapable of receiving proper benefit from the instruction in ordinary schools." Those who are incapable of receiving instruction in the ordinary elementary schools are children who, at the present time, are sent to special schools. You have only to ask the teachers, and you will find that a large number of these children who are regarded by educational authorities and the teachers as being incapable of receiving benefit from their instruction in the ordinary schools are merely children who are backward, who are dull at lessons, and who prefer life in the open streets to sitting at a desk and saying the "ABC" after a teacher. All these children are regarded, at the present time, as being incapable of receiving instruction in the ordinary schools. Are you content that all those children should be severed from their families and sent to these special schools during their school age, and thereafter sent to the feeble-minded institutions? Let hon. Members think what these feeble-minded institutions are. They are full of people who are horrible to see, mentally defective persons, idiots, and imbeciles, people it would be the severest possible penalty to have to live in company with, and to these institutions you are condemning children in this country who are normal in all respects except in so far as their work is concerned, children who are merely a little bit lazy and backward, and they are to be sent to these hells upon earth, to these institutions from which they will never emerge! I ask the House to see if they cannot amend this definition of what con- stitutes feeble-minded persons, and in particular the definition of feeble-minded children, before they pass this Bill into an Act of Parliament; otherwise they will be not benefiting feeble-minded persons, but committing a crime which the people of this country will hold them answerable for. Do you think the parents of these children will take it kindly from you if you pass an Act to deprive them of their children and send them to these places? When you argue, with the hon. Member for Stirlingshire, that it is in the interests, of the race that the inefficient workers should be segregated and stamped out from the race, I think they will have a plain, straightforward answer to make to hon. Members who vote for a crime like this, and I trust that they will see that those people who support this Bill are not sent back here to support similar Bills.
Though I am seconding the Amendment, it is not because I want the whole of the Sub-section deleted. I am not opposed to this Sub-section at all down to a certain point, and that is feebleminded persons, in whose case there exists from birth or an early age mental defect not amounting to imbecility, yet so pronounced that they require care, supervision, and control for their own protection or for the protection of others. I agree down to that point, but I am bound to say that there is a very considerable amount of force in the statement of the hon. Member for Newcastle in regard to-the other words, because it looks as if it were only necessary for a child to be backward and incapable of taking the average benefit from instruction given in school for it to be segregated with feeble-minded persons and dealt with on that basis. This is really legislation for the working-class children, and let us make no error about that. The hon. Member for Stirlingshire shakes his head, but there is no doubt about it. A person who is fairly well off has a governess at home and instructs his children at home, and up to a certain point of their age they do not come under the cognisance of regulations of this description. They might be absolutely incapable of taking the instruction given them, but no one outside the family circle would be any the wiser where they happened to be able to provide a governess, so that there is not the slightest doubt that these words apply merely to the children of the poor that go to elementary schools, and then the teacher is obliged to report that it does not matter what they do, this child does not seem to be able to get on, is at the bottom of the form though it has been there three or four years, and so on. The hon. Member for Stirlingshire suggests that they shall be dealt with as feebleminded persons. This is how it appears to me, who am a supporter of the Bill and not opposed to the Bill at all, but really this is too much of a good thing, and unless there is some explanation or some saving Clause somewhere else, I would almost see the Bill wrecked before I would allow this to be applied to the ordinary child of working people who happened to be backward. For that reason, I must have some explanation, or I shall be obliged to vote as suggested by the hon. Member for Newcastle.
Mr. Speaker, I wish—
Order, order. I wish the hon. Gentleman would not be so impatient. I think we should get on better.
My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme is really, notwithstanding two years' debates, still under a complete misapprehension as to the nature of this Bill. He said that a magistrate who was passing sentence on some person for some miserable offence, would have power to lock up that offender for life; but there is no such provision in the Bill. There is no such provision, or such power, or anything like it in the Bill. Then he said the reason he would be able to do so was because, under the definitions, a feeble-minded person, although he was able to manage his own affairs, was a person who required supervision for the protection of others. I quite admit that the hon. Membear, reading these words superficially without considering them, might naturally fall into the error which he has made, but I beg him to remember that he has had these words before him now for over a year. He has taken a great interest in the Bill and written about it to the Press, and ho has had it for over a year before him. He has had it again and again explained to him that these words do not bear the construction which he has put upon them. When it is said in paragraph (b) that "imbeciles are persons who are incapable of managing themselves or their affairs," and in paragraph (c) that "feeble-minded persons are persons who, not being imbeciles, yet require care, supervision, and control for their own protection or for the protection of others," it does not mean that because they are not imbeciles they are therefore capable of managing their own affairs.
They are not incapable.
There is all the difference in the world. The hon. Member must not even construe it in that way. Although not imbeciles, they may still be incapable of managing their own affairs. The words in the first definition—
mean that they are completely incapable of managing themselves or their affairs, and the words have been so construed, and, when in the next paragraph we say, "not being imbeciles," we mean persons who are not completely incapable of managing themselves or their affairs, and yet persons who are so mentally defective that they cannot look after themselves. They are still persons who in the ordinary sense are not capable of managing themselves or their affairs, but they are not completely incapable."Imbeciles; that is to say persons in whose case there exists from birth or from an early age mental defectiveness not amounting to idiocy, yet so pronounced that they are incapable of managing themselves or their affairs"—
The word "completely" is not in the definition.
No; but the word "completely" is the interpretation put upon these words in another Act of Parliament. My hon. Friend proposes to leave out paragraph (c), leaving it to apply only to idiots or imbeciles. Knowing the facts as he does, he ought to have reminded the House that this Bill repeals the Idiots Act, 1886, and that, therefore, to leave out paragraph (c) would be to destroy the whole Bill. My hon. Friend knows that as well as I do, and he is really not entitled at this late stage to bring up again as a fresh argument this kind of argument, which he produced last year, without informing the House at the same time that his Amendment destroys the Bill. Then my hon. Friend went on to deal with the question of children, and there I think his statements were even more amazing. He said that this Bill gave power to lock up children who were a little backward or lazy. He said, "You lock them up for life in very hells upon earth." All that, he said, was done by paragraph (c). His remarks went so far as to deceive my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. John Ward). What are the real facts about paragraph (c) in relation to children? In the first place, in order to remove any misconception on the point, my hon. Friend might have said, as I think he is also well aware, that I have placed upon the Paper an Amendment to leave out the word "are" ["or in the case of children are"], and to insert the words "that they, by reason of such defectiveness, are permanently." That would exclude any motion of mere temporary defectiveness.
Why permanent?
Because feeble-mindedness is a permanent defect, and we have inserted it throughout. A person to be treated as feeble-minded must be somebody who from birth or from an early age has been mentally defective. Therefore, in the definition of children who might come under the operation of the Bill, we are quite willing to insert words providing that the mental defectiveness shall be permanent and not merely casual. This is only a definition Clause, and it says:—
It then deals with certain classes of children who shall be deemed to be defectives, but you have to turn to the later Clauses to see how children who come within the definition of this Act can toe dealt with. The only children who can be dealt with under this Act will be found to be those under Clause 2, Sub-Section (1), paragraph (b) (i.) who are found to be neglected, abandoned, or without visible means of support or cruelly treated; under paragraphs (ii.) and (iii.) who have been guilty of a criminal offence or are undergoing imprisonment, or under paragraph (v.) in whose case notice has been given by the local education authority as is hereinafter mentioned. Now I turn to the class of children in respect of whom this notice may be; given, and I find it is only these classes of children:"The following classes of persons who are mentally defective shall be deemed to be defectives within the meaning of this Act."
Not only.
Clause 2, Sub-Section (2) paragraph (a), says,
"Children over the age of seven who have been ascertained to be incapable by reason of mental defect of receiving benefits or further benefit in special schools or classes, or who cannot be instructed in a special school or class without detriment to the interests of the other children or for whom the Board, of Education, certify that no suitable special school or class is available."
Go on, please.
The whole point of my argument is that the only class of child who can be dealt with is the child who either is in a special school or class and is incapable by reason of mental defect of receiving benefit or further benefit from the instruction, or who has been discharged from a special school or class because he is so defective that he cannot receive further benefit from the special school or class. It follows from this that the child who is merely lazy or backward, the ordinary child in the ordinary elementary school who does not come up to the level of the other children, is absolutely excluded from the operation of the Bill. Then I have to consider how they can be dealt with under the Bill, and not one of those children, children who must be proved to be mentally defective or who must be in a special school or be discharged from a special school, can be dealt with except under an order made by a judicial authority on a petition and with medical evidence, and yet my hon. Friend has the courage to get up and say that upon the mere judgment of this, that, or the other magistrate, children who are merely lazy or backward may be sent to "hells" for life. I think that I have given sufficient explanation to show that my hon. Friend's alarms are entirely unfounded, and I will only conclude by saying that to exclude this paragraph would be to render the Bill nugatory and throw us back on the existing law."(b) who on or before attaining the age of sixteen are about to be withdrawn or discharged from a special school or class."
I quite agree that this paragraph is necessary. It is true that if we are to pass the Bill at all, it would be folly to leave out such an important provision. It is most true that you cannot follow the importance of this Sub-section without having regard to the later Clauses of the Bill. It is necessary to bear in mind when discussing these provisions that we have to deal with a body of opinion which, it seems to me, is not a very reasonable body of opinion when you come to the administration of these laws. You have philanthropists and you have scientific people, and both those two classes of persons are apt to get fancies—you really can hardly all them by a more respectable name—and to press those fancies with a total disregard to the feelings of individuals, and with the most ruthless indifference to the sufferings they cause, provided that they are clear in their own minds that they are doing what is in the interests of this or that person. Therefore, you must watch with most jealous care the language of Statutes of this kind. Philanthropists, in the language of symbolical physiology, are very abnormal persons. They have swelled heads and no bowels, and they proceed, therefore, with a total disregard for the liberty of the subject. The Home Secretary probably knows that neglect has received a very artificial interpretation at the hands of some magistrates. It has been held that merely to refuse to have a child operated upon when medical advice thinks that it ought to be operated upon is wilful neglect. I do not believe that the High Courts of Justice would take that view, but it has been taken by some magistrates.
Supposing the doctor said, "Here is a child which ought to go through a certain course for epileptic children," it is possible that magistrates might take the view, if the parents refused, that they were neglecting their child. It would then come within a class included in Clause 2, Sub-section (1), and would fall under the operation of this Bill. Those are the sort of dangers you have to guard against, and I think that the language of this paragraph will have to be most carefully considered. There is one expression "proper benefit," which misled the hon. Member, not altogether unnaturally, into his exaggerated account of the Bill. The words "proper benefit" would seem to suggest the advantage a schoolmaster might think a child ought to get from his teaching. I rather agree with the Home Secretary. If you read the whole Clause, it has to be mental defectiveness not amounting to imbecility, yet so pronounced that they require care, supervision, and control. All that has to be read before you come to consider the proper benefit. At any rate, it is permanent defectiveness. If the Home Secretary could find some better adjective which would really suggest that it was more than a backward or stupid child, and if the proper benefit could be qualified in some way, it would remove the sort of case which the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme has in his mind, and I think that the Clause would be made better. But I really think that it is in the later parts of the Bill we must look for safeguards in giving parents proper control over their children and in protecting them against compulsion.I agree with the Home Secretary that if this paragraph were deleted the whole Bill would be destroyed. I also agree that backward children could not possibly come under this Clause. I take it that only special school children would come under this Clause. The right hon. Gentleman said that the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme had had these definitions before him for two years, and that, therefore, he ought not to raise new points, but the right hon. Gentleman has himself had them before him for two years, and yet to-day he is proposing to make a very important and far-reaching change. It is proposed to insert the word "permanently," but I do not think the House has at all realised what the insertion of that word would really mean.
The hon. Member cannot speak to an Amendment which is to be moved later.
If the Home Secretary will look at page 3 of the Bill, lines 3 and 4, he will see that the words are, "or for whom the Board of Education certify that no suitable special school or class is available." Does not that provision seem to give a loophole to the local education authorities, which probably could not afford the erection of special schools, to throw the care of these children oh those other authorities, and therefore those children would not get the benefit of the education which they would receive in the special schools, and they might be all the more quickly thrown into the hands of the other authorities?
I propose to deal with those words when we come to them in a way which I think will be satisfactory.
The hon. Member who moved this Amendment is proceeding on entirely humanitarian grounds, and I support him on those grounds, because it seems to me we have made a very strong case, in spite of what the Home Secretary says. I have spent the last six weeks or two months in considering this measure, and while I must say that the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme holds strong views in regard to this Bill, yet, with regard to this definition, I do not think he is inaccurate at all. It appears to me that, under this Bill, all that has to be done is to get the consent of any justice of the peace—and all justices of the peace are not capable jurists—and, so far as the Bill is concerned, when that consent is given a child can be practically imprisoned for life. It is provided that its case may be reconsidered; that is true, but after all, to all intents and purposes, that child will be imprisoned for life. No doubt some alteration is required, but our principal objection is to this part of the Bill, and it is clear that those children are to be a separate class altogether from those who are mentally defective. Even with the Amendment proposed by the right hon. Gentleman it seems to me that this class will be a very large one, and will be incapable of receiving proper benefit from the instruction in the ordinary schools. I submit that in a large number of cases the children who do not receive proper benefit are not incapable of receiving instruction, and that it is due to the incapability of the teacher. The teacher fails to understand some of the children. I have an instance in my own mind of a person who was sent to school, but he received no teaching whatever. He was pronounced to be perfectly incapable of receiving instruction, and he was sent away from the school unable to read or write. He remained incapable of reading or writing until the age of forty years, without any change being observable in his condition since he was sent from the school. After he was forty years of age he went to a tutor, under whom he was educated, and under whom he showed great aptitude indeed. The reason of his incapacity at school was that he had a physical defect, and in reality the teacher was incapable of understanding the child. But all these cases are within the Bill.
No matter how capable a teacher may be, whether man or woman, in regard to everything else, he or she may be incapable of understanding the physical or even the slight mental defects of pupils who enter his or her school. Under this Clause the words are "a child who is incapable of receiving benefit from instruction in the ordinary school"; but we must remember that unless a person comes within the definition of Clause 1, he cannot be proceeded with under the Act itself. Evidence is to be produced before the magistrates whether a person is defective under (a), (b), (c), or (d). That is most important. The Home Secretary says, "After all, it does not matter very much, and the definitions on that part of the Bill come later on." I dispute that. I submit that this is the important part of the Bill. These four definitions, and especially definition (c), are an important part of the Bill. It has been pointed out that it does not even mean, under the present Bill, that those children who cannot be dealt with under Sub-section (c) shall be children who have to go to a special school. The Home Secretary has told us that he proposes to move an Amendment with regard to that. It is very remarkable that we are only to get this Amendment now. This Bill was fought in Committee all last Session, and has been fought this Session, and all our Amendments have been refused. The attitude of the Government has been, "This is our Bill, every word of it." [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] That is substantially true. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]I was not even allowed to move my Amendments.
Every person likely to make suggestions of Amendments in Committee upstairs—
The hon. Member is getting off the line now, and he must come back to it.
I say it is very remarkable that an Amendment should now come from the Home Secretary to alter the Clause providing that the Board of Education are to specify the children. I do not know what the alteration is. We are now going to have two Amendments with regard to this Clause which the Government have refused to discuss up to date. Sub-section (c) was not discussed, and with regard to other provisions of the Bill no change could be obtained. I rather welcome the proposal to make Amendments now, for I think it is encouraging to those of us who have persistently endeavoured to get fundamental changes in this Bill, that they should be obtained even at this late hour.
The hon. Member said that he opposed the Bill on humanitarian grounds, but I understand those grounds to be in favour of the Bill and not opposed to it. The object of these Clauses is not to imprison persons for life, but to protect them. There are thousands of persons from whom the imprisonment will be a real and beneficial protection, and every care will be taken that the persons who are put into these institutions are persons who will be there for their benefit. The wider you make these Clauses and definitions the better it will be; and it is because there is a very large number of persons mentally defective that these Clauses for their protection must be introduced into the Bill.
I have the greatest respect for the hon. Member for St. Pancras, who said that the definitions could not be too wide, and that the wider they are the better. That is a perfectly justifiable point of view compared with the point of view of an absolute autocracy —a body of people who know instinctively what people ought to be in prison and what people ought to be at liberty. We have got to remember that we are dealing with ordinary human beings and not with men like Mr. Sydney Webb or the Member for St. Pancras. It is in order to protect the ordinary individual of this country that you have got to make the definitions clear, and get them as hard and as fast as it is possible, and not to trust merely to the goodness of heart and intentions of people like the hon. Member for St. Pancras. I am sorry that the Home Secretary has left the House, because I am afraid that the warmth with which he replied to my recent Amendment portends a somewhat stormy and electrical time later on in the day. If he is so very angry with my Amendments at six o'clock, I do not know what he will be at twelve o'clock at night. He says that I spoke of feeble minded persons who were quite capable of managing their own affairs. I was not the first to say that. Mr. G. K. Chesterton said it in the first place, and it has been said in every Liberal newspaper in the last year and a half. It is all very well for the Home Secretary to get up now and say "incapable of" will mean in future "completely incapable of." The wording of this Bill is what we have to go by. Under the wording of this Bill people who are not incapable of managing their own affairs are liable to long, life confinement. There is no getting away from that; they may not be "completely incapable." You must take the words in the Bill as they are. If the right hon. Gentleman likes to put in an Amendment and insert the word "completely" before "incapable," well and good. But, as he does not suggest doing that, we must assume that all the wisdom is embodied in the plutocrats of the Home Office and in those who will be called upon to decide whether or not these individuals shall be confined for life. I am sorry the Home Secretary has left the House because, having denounced me with great force, he gave an entirely fancy account to the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University of how children are to be dealt with in this Bill. Where you have special schools or classes the children will continue to be weeded out from the ordinary elementary schools to the special schools or classes by the teachers. That is the present system, and it is the system which is to be continued in the future. When they have been weeded out from the ordinary schools into the special schools, the process of weeding out will continue under Clause 2, Section (2), Sub-section (a). If a child goes into the special school he may be weeded out to an institution between the ages of seven and sixteen. So far there is no difference between myself and the Home Secretary. But the right hon. Gentleman tried to leave it at that; he tried to suggest that that was the only way in which the children would be dealt with. If, however, you read the next Subsection, Sub-section (b), you will see that children who remain in the special school after the weeding out process has been continued, between the ages of seven and sixteen, are then to be dealt with in the following manner. I had better read the exact words of the Sub-section. They are,
"who on or before attaining the age of sixteen are about to be withdrawn or discharged from a special school or class, and in whose case the local education authority are of opinion that it would be to their benefit that they should be sent to an institution or placed under guardianship." Thus the education authority, again, is the body that will give notice to the local authority under this Act, and children who have not been weeded out prior to the age of sixteen can be dealt with at or near the age of sixteen. The local education authority, without any doctor's certificate, can give notice that certain children require to be looked after. I think we must all recognise that there are some teachers in our schools who would be thankful to see children in ordinary schools looked after as well as those in special schools, and is it unlikely that they will say that the children in special schools will be better off by being looked after? It comes to this: When once a child goes into a special school or class the fate of that child is sealed. Notice will be given either before it reaches the age of sixteen if it is mentally defective, or at that age, by the teacher that it had better be looked after after leaving school. What happens then? Notice is given to the local authority under this Act, and the officer of that authority brings a petition before the justices of the peace which states that the child, a mentally defective child, belonging to a particular class, requires to be looked after. That petition has to be backed by the certificates of two medical practitioners. It would be quite easy to get such certificates in the case of any child who has been in a special school under the very vague definition contained in this Bill. After all, the medical practitioner will not have to say that such-and-such a person is insane or incapable of managing his or her affairs; he will be merely asked to say that such a person would be better if looked after, and that it would be better either for his own protection or for the protection of other persons. I submit that that is much too big a risk to allow the people of this country to run. At the present time, as this Bill stands, any child who goes to a special school or class runs very grave risk of being incarcerated for life. In a large part of the country where there are no special schools or classes I am afraid you have an even wider area of danger for the children of the working classes. Where there is no special school or class there will only be one weeding-out process. If a child is weeded out from an ordinary school between the ages of seven and fourteen, it will go, not to a special school or class, because there is none under the local authority, but it will go straight away to one of these institutions, and I am inclined to think it will be not protection, but an added danger, for these slow children that there should be no special school or class that will take them in. In the absence of such special school or class, any child who the teacher finds to be backward or incapable of reaping proper benefit from the instruction of the school is sent straight away from the ordinary elementary school to one of these institutions without any second weeding-out process. That is a very grave danger. That is why the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rotherham (Mr. J. A. Pease) has brought in an Education Bill to deal with this particular difficulty. The Bill has not passed its Second Reading, and whether it will ever do so, I cannot say, but I am confident that the dangers in front of parents of feeble-minded children in this country are growing, and that this Bill places the very serious risk on parents that if a child is sent to a special school, and if this Definition Clause is left as it stands, once a child is withdrawn from an ordinary elementary school no parent can be sure of getting it back. The Home Secretary said that if this Clause were deleted there would be nothing left in the Bill. I do not agree with him. There will be a great deal left; there will be the money provisions left, and they constitute the most important part of the Bill, because they provide institutions to which these people can go voluntarily. We are only discussing now the need for compulsion; we are discussing whether we ought to compel people who come under a certain definition to take advantage of these benefits. If they are real benefits they will be taken advantage of voluntarily by everyone who needs them. All we are discussing is whether we shall compel a certain narrow class of persons who come within the scope of this definition to go to these institutions. This Clause merely deals with one corner of the question. I hope we shall fight against it. If we could have some promise of an Amendment in the definition of feeble-minded, it might assist us, but I do not suppose that the Under-Secretary is allowed to give any promises in regard to an important Clause. But what we do want is a serious Amendment of this definition. May I repeat my points? First, if this definition comes out, it will not destroy the Bill, because it only deals with the compulsory part of the measure. So far as the Bill is concerned, the providing of money and the weeding out of these feeble-minded persons will still be retained in the Bill. I further want to point out what will be the normal course under this Bill if it becomes an Act. The children will be weeded out first from the ordinary to the special school, and then from the special school to the institution, while those who remain in the special school after weeding out pass automatically under the action of the local authority, to the institution. The normal course will be that when a child has gone to a special school—when it has been removed from an ordinary school—it will go to one of these institutions permanently, without any weeding-out process taking place. It will be done on the initiative of the teacher and without any medical certificate. Now we have to protect these children from being weeded out by making the definition as narrow as possible. It is not the case we are dealing with only a few children. Every child who goes to a special school, whether it has reached the age of sixteen or not, will pass automatically into the institution, provided the local education authority gives notice to that effect. That is the class for whom I am pleading. I think they ought to have protection against the danger of incarceration for life. They are children who have been weeded out very often simply because they are slow and do not get proper benefit from the education given in the ordinary school. I do not say it is necessary to cut out the whole Clause. But I do think the House is justified in asserting that the greatest care should betaken in all these cases, so that there may be no possible risk of a child being improperly incarcerated for life under this Bill.6.0 P.M.
I speak with a certain amount of knowledge on this subject as I am associated with the largest educational authority in the country and am chairman of its special schools committee. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood) has spoken as though it was entirely at the option of the teacher in the ordinary school whether or not a child was weeded out and sent to a special school. That certainly is not the case in London, where the education authority has more special schools than all the rest of the country put together. In no case in London is a child admitted to a special school unless it has been certified by one of the doctors of the education authority as being a proper child to go into such a school. Then the hon. Member's account of the attitude of the teachers in the special schools is equally incorrect. He spoke as if they were anxious always to weed out the children from the special schools and have them sent to an institution. The exact reverse is the case. I speak with infinite knowledge of the work which the teachers are doing in these schools. I know what is their ambition, an ambition which is frequently fulfilled. It is to so educate the children under their charge that they are able once more to take their place in the ordinary school. That occurs over and over again, and it is certainly the desire of the teachers of the special schools to effect that rather than that the children should pass on to an institution. It will be quite impossible, under any reasonable local education, authority, for such children to be passed on from special schools to institutions without the authority of the school medical officers. In every case the school medical officer is called upon to give his authority before any such transfer is made. I know these schools, and that in many cases the children educated in them are turned out able to take their place and earn their living as reasonable, respectable citizens. I know, also, too well, that there is in these schools a certain proportion—not a very large proportion, but a not inconsiderable proportion—who, unless they get after they leave these schools decent guardianship and decent care in some such institution as that in the North of England and others scattered about the country, which I hope will be increased when this Bill is passed, they will infallibly go the downward course and live a life which can only be a curse to themselves and to others. I should regret it extremely if this Amendment were carried, because I believe it would destroy one of the most important portions of the Bill.
I desire to draw attention to the fact that it is not necessary under the Bill that the child should have been to a special school before he can be confined to a home. I notice that an Amendment has been made to Clause 2 by the Committee, by which a child may be taken if the Board of Education certify that no special school or class is available. As the definition now stands, it means that children incapable of receiving proper benefit from the instruction in ordinary schools can be removed to a home if the Board of Education certify that no suitable special school or class is available. I opposed this proposal in Committee, because I thought it was going very far indeed to say that because a child is incapable of benefiting from the ordinary education given in the ordinary school he should be liable to be imprisoned for life, because it practically means that. My hon. Friend behind me and the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme seem to think that it was intended that before a child could be so removed he must be removed in the first instance to a special school. I should like to ask the Under-Secretary whether the Govern- ment intend to insist upon the words of Clause 2, which provides that a child may, notwithstanding the fact that he has had no opportunity of being tested in a special school, be removed from the ordinary school to a home, provided it can be proved that he is incapable of benefiting by the instruction in an ordinary school. I can understand there is a good deal to be said for the view that a child who has failed to benefit by the ordinary instruction given in a special school should be treated as a defective, but it is contrary to what the Committee and a large number of Members intended to say if we say that a person should be liable to removal if he is merely incapable of benefiting from the ordinary instruction.
I had put down in my own name an Amendment similar to that now being discussed. On consideration, however, I decided not to move it, mainly because I came to the conclusion that if the Bill was to be a reality at all, some definition of feeble-mindedness would require to appear in it. I was unable to discover a definition which was a real improvement upon that in the Bill. There have been two points of view in regard to this matter—first of all, that expressed by the hon. Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson), who desires to make the definition as wide as possible, and, on the other hand, there is the point of view represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme and the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil), who, on the whole, prefer a restricted view of the class which comes within the definition. The question is how we are to secure this end. From the point of view of the hon. Member for North St. Pancras, it is well that the Clause should be as wide as possible. He believes that the treatment is going to be an unmitigated benefit to those afflicted by it, and that it is for their protection, training, and cure. It may be so. Were the institutions in which these people are going to be treated voluntary institutions I could well believe all those things would be true, and that they would be an unmixed benefit for them; but, at the same time, we must remember that the powers which are being taken for the cure and protection of these people are also powers which involve their compulsory detention. As they involve compulsory detention, we should look upon them with great care and caution.
No matter how beneficial an institution may be, nobody who is compelled to remain in it is necessarily to believe that it is simply for his benefit. For example, the Ritz Hotel and Devonshire House are both very desirable places, but no Member of this House would care to be detained in either for the rest of his natural life, and if the hon. Member for North St. Pancras got up and said in connection with such a proposal that it would be for the benefit of the individual for whom it was suggested a great many people would, disagree with him and probably vote against him. That feature of the proposals in this Bill should always be borne, in mind. We may all agree that it is beneficial, curative, and protective, but it is, at the same time, a very serious restriction of liberty. I can only speak for myself in this matter, but I think we who desire to restrict the definition should adopt the method of securing additional safeguards and precautions in reference to the people who may be dealt with under the Bill. Certain precautions have been included which were introduced in Committee. The Home Secreary has indicated that additional precautions and safeguards will be adopted during the course of the present stage of the Bill. In view of the changes which have already been made and the other changes which have been promised, there is really no case for opposing the insertion of this paragraph in the Bill.Does the hon. Member press his Amendment?
No, Sir.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in paragraph (c), to leave out the words "not amounting to imbecility, yet so pronounced," and to insert instead thereof the words "so pronounced that, while capable of managing themselves or their affairs, or in the case of children of being taught to do so, yet."
This is really a drafting Amendment. Each of these definitions goes on the principle of saying that it is not so bad as the previous one—that the imbeciles are not idiots, and that the feeble-minded persons are not imbeciles. I think it would be better, in defining feeble-minded persons, that you should say what they are and not what they are not. The paragraph says that feeble-minded persons are "persons in whose case there exists from birth or from an early age mental defectiveness not amounting to imbecility." I want to embody in the definition of feeble-minded persons the definition of imbeciles in the previous paragraph, and instead of saying, "Not amounting to imbecility," to say "so pronounced that— then comes the definition which is taken from the imbecility paragraph—while capable of managing themselves or their affairs, or in the case of children being taught to do so—both these things are what imbeciles are not—and then go on with the definition as before. It is very important that we should make each of these paragraphs clear in itself, and that they should not be definitions by reference. Here you have again introduced that vice against which every Member of the House has protested at some time or other, the vice of legislating by reference. Here we have definitions by reference. It would be better to take the words from the previous definition and embody them in this definition, which would then read: "Feeble-minded persons; that is to say, persons in whose case there exists from birth or from an early age mental defectiveness so pronounced that while capable of managing themselves or their affairs, or in the case of children are being taught to do so, yet that they require care, supervision, and control for their own protection or for the protection of others." That seems to cross the "t's" and dot the "i's" of the previous definition. It does not strengthen, widen, or stiffen it, but only makes perfectly clear to the House and to the country what we are doing, and does not try to conceal it in this vague reference toI hope it will be treated as being a drafting Amendment and incorporated in the Bill. I am all in favour of making these definitions of what constitutes a new crime as clear as possible, and leaving as little as possible to the imagination or idea of the people who will administer the Bill. This Amendment is only one of a series which I have put down to this paragraph. It elucidates the matter. The other Amendments have been suggested by Dr. Bernard Hollander, the great specialist, and I think the Government might accept some of them."not amounting to imbecility."
I beg to second the Amendment.
I think the hon. Member, in the course of his speech, has made the very answer I should have given to this Amendment. He wants to embody in this paragraph the definition of imbecility which appears in paragraph (b). That is the substance of the Amendment. Before I deal with this matter, may I remind the hon. Member that in the Committee of 1912, we spent six days upon this very definition.
Nothing like it.
There were twenty-seven Divisions upon the definition of defectives. In the Committee of 1913, from which the hon. Member was unfortunately absent—
Excluded.
Unfortunately absent—I know he has been busy in other haunts of life—there were three days spent and six Divisions taken upon this question. I think I am entitled to say that for nine days in two years we have really gone into this matter very carefully. These definitions are very difficult matters. We all know that any definition is difficult, but a definition of different states of mind is very difficult indeed to get watertight. We know that in the long run it will have to be a matter of inspection and observation by the skilled men who will have to deal with these cases. In regard to the substance of this Amendment, it is really to substitute in (c) the definition given in (b) of imbecility. There can only be one reason for this, and that is that the ordinary reader of the Bill will have forgotten, when he comes to line twenty, what was in line fifteen. There are some who would forget, but it is only six lines back. It is not as if it were twenty Clauses back. When a man comes to Sub-section (c) and sees the word "imbecility," he only has to look six lines back to see the definition. The hon. Member is very anxious not to have prolixity in Acts of Parliament. Would not this be carrying prolixity too far, to redefine the word in line twenty? I hope the hon. Member will not press the Amendment.
Question, "That those words stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move to leave out the word "require" ["that they require care"], and to insert instead thereof the words "required throughout their life's history."
This is one of the Amendments which was suggested by Dr. Bernard Hollander and I hope it will receive careful attention at the hands of the Government. It is based upon the idea that mental deficiency begins at an early age and lasts throughout life and that it is not an accidental occurrence which occurs at a certain age, but is part of the growth and history of the development of the child, and that it is most important in making these definitions that we should have it clearly laid down that the deficiency has to be a permanent matter and not one which is purely temporary. The Home, Secretary himself, in framing an Amendment of which he gave notice to-day, has recognised this later on in the Clause. The Amendment is that in the case of children they, by reason of such defectiveness, are permanently incapable of taking advantage of their education in the schools. He recognises, just as I think every doctor who has studied the question realises, that mental deficiency is a permanent state of affairs, and that what you have to judge by is not what the child or the adult is at the present moment, but what he has been like at all previous dates in his history so far as those who know him remember, and that is what Dr. Hollander means when he talks of their life history. He says it is of the utmost importance that a medical practitioner who is giving a certificate should not base his certificate simply on what he sees of the patient at that moment, but should also have information as to the previous life history of the patient, and in order that we may make it necessary that the medical practitioner should give such evidence we want it stated that the definition of feeble-mindedness requires not merely the state at that moment, but the condition of the patient during his or her whole life. I will read what Dr. Hollander says on the matter:—I do not know whether the Government want to meet me on any of these Amendments or to steam-roller the whole of them, but this is an occasion when they might possibly take a recommendation, not from the Member for Newcastle, who is such a nuisance to them, but from a leading specialist in questions of insanity whose opinion presumably is of some weight."The definition as it stands will be applicable to a great many persons who are leading normal and useful lives. It is true of many men, and still more so of a great many women, that they are mentally defective—of course, not amounting to imbecility yet sufficiently pronounced that some care, supervision and control should be given for their protection or for the protection of others. We are all feeble-minded in some respects or when taken out of our accustomed environment. For the law to interfere with the border-line feeble-minded it should be proved in any given case that a person is always in need of supervision and not merely at a particular time, and in the case of children it is not sufficient to say that they are incapable of receiving proper benefits from the instruction in ordinary schools, which may apply to a great many children who do well in after life, but it should be stilted that they have failed to acquire rudimentary knowledge."
I beg to second the Amendment.
So far as I understand the scope of the Bill, there is no intention of including anybody who has not been feeble-minded from birth or from an early age. If you take the Bill strictly as it stands, a person who has been slightly feeble-minded, but not in such a state that you would require to take any steps in respect to him under this Bill, and lives to the age of forty or fifty and then brings himself within the definition of the Bill, requires care, supervision, and control, and that would be introducing a very dangerous state of affairs. The object of the Amendment is that the only people to be dealt with by the Bill are those who have been feeble-minded from their birth or from an early age. If it were not so, that would be opening the door to all the dangers which have been pointed out under other definitions in other Bills, cases of people who were inclined to be feeble-minded and who would be dealt with for very objectionable reasons when they arrived at that time of life—disputes as regards property, disputes between husband and wife, and other reasons which would mar the advantages and objects of the Bill. As it stands now, it is sufficient for a person to be feeble-minded from birth or from an early age, to be perfectly quiescent until the age of forty and then get so pronounced that he requires care, supervision, and control for his protection. That is a possible construction of the Bill as it stands. I gather that is not the intention of the Government, and that if a person has not brought himself within the purview of the Bill at the age of forty, they do not intend him to come under it then. If that is so, there can be no harm in inserting these words They will come in perfectly simply. It is, after all, merely a drafting Amendment which will carry out the intention of the Government better than the present Bill.
I think the hon. and learned Gentleman will agree with me that these words are not at all necessary. "That there exists from birth or from an early age mental defectiveness not amounting to so and so." Someone must be satisfied with that fact before the patient can come in this Clause: Of course, these definitions are very difficult. We had a definition from the hon. Member (Mr. Wedgwood) of himself, that he was a nuisance. No one will agree with that definition. So there is really difficulty about it. I think the hon. and learned Gentleman will agree that no one is a feeble-minded person unless from birth or from an early age there exists mental defectiveness. That is the same thing in other words as "required throughout their life history. "Suppose there was a case where no one knew the previous history. Is it to be said that because we could not trace the life history of the patient from year to year, he is to be excluded from the provisions of the Bill, however much he requires it? I really do not think there is very much in the substance. The hon. Member asked whether we are going to steam-roller his Amendments. There are some Amendments which only deserve the steam roller, and I do not think this is one of the most useful Amendments he has moved.
I am sorry the Government cannot accept the Amendment. Their arguments against it are arguments which cut their own throats. First of all, the Under-Secretary says it is quite unnecessary to state that they have required care throughout their life history, because mental defectiveness must have occurred at an early age. No doctor could sign the certificate unless he knew this defectiveness had occurred in early age or was a permanent affair. Then he says, "How can we possibly know their life history when we may not know what was their previous history at all?" He may just have come across the case casually after he has grown up. He is unable to find the life history and is also unable to state when the mental defectiveness began. So that if he was unable to give a certificate on account of the fact that he did not know whether the infant was feebleminded, exactly the same argument applies to the inability to supply the life history. There is no argument to be drawn from that whatever, but there is a very substantial need for this Amendment. The Under-Secretary has omitted to notice that the definition of the feeble-minded person is that he or she shall need care, control, and supervision. What would be the definition of a feeble-minded person who did not require care, control, or supervision? Obviously he contemplates bringing under this Act a person who has been mentally deficient from birth, but who in early years may not have needed care, supervision, or control. It is extremely important that the definition of what is a mentally defective person should be the same when he is forty years of age as when he is an infant. You want the same definition of feeble-mindedness throughout, and whether a person be that from middle age or from a baby, in either case the feeblemindedness shall depend upon the need for care, supervision, or control. Therefore this Amendment, which makes it quite clear that the definition of mental deficiency must in all cases and at all ages be the same, should, stand in the Bill.
Question, "That the word 'require' stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move to leave out the words "for their protection or."
I want to leave out these, which are purely drafting words, because it seems to me that they give a false idea of what the Bill is intended to be. It is primarily a Bill for the protection of others. These are the compulsory Clauses in the Bill. Anyone who is a feeble-minded person under this definition ought to have not only a clear statement as to why he is regarded as mentally deficient, but also he should be safe from having in the definition the somewhat hypocritical statement that he needs care for his own protection. That makes it quite clear what is the intention of the Bill—that is, that it is passed for the protection of society and not for the protection of the individual. The individual is able, under this Bill, to get assistance if he wants it. A feeble-minded person could get a home which he would be free to enter or to leave without these penal Clauses in the Bill at all, but it is only hypocritical to say to a person, "We are not content that we should take advantage of this Bill that you should get a real home, but we will take care that the real home shall be a real prison and that you shall not be allowed to leave it if you once go into it." When you are saying that, I think it is just as well to make clear in the definition that you are guilty of hypocrisy by saying that it is for their protection alone, that this Bill is being passed. If the words "for their own protection" were left out, the Clause would still give sufficient protection for the cases you have to deal with. Why shove in the words "for their own protection"? Some persons have the old-fashioned idea that all women require protection. If you had gone to Whitehall on Sunday afternoon, you might have been able to form some opinion on that subject. Some of us have the old-fashioned idea that women require protection, but if you put this in an Act of Parliament you are widening enormously the scope of the term "protection." You are saying that if any woman, for example, requires protection, some person should make an order for that purpose. The Clause would read just as well without these words, and the definition would then read quite straightforwardly.The hon. Member in the next Amendment proposes to leave out the words "of others" also. Could not the two Amendments be put together?
No, they are on different points.
The hon. Member proposes to leave out both the words "for their own protection or" and the words "of others."
The second is an alternative. If I cannot get this Amendment accepted, I will move the other one.
I do not think I would be justified in dividing an Amendment like this.
On the point of Order. I think it is very usual to put down an Amendment which, if carried, would wipe out part of a Clause, and at the same time to put down Amendments to that part of the Clause which would be wiped out. That is what I have done in this case. If this Amendment is made, the subsequent Amendment would be unnecessary, but, if it is not made, then it becomes necessary to move the subsequent Amendment. I submit that is the usual practice.
I cannot see the connection between the two at all. If it has been the custom, it is quite a novelty to me.
I will withdraw this Amendment, and move the second one, to leave out the words "for the protection of others." I regard these as the most dangerous words in the Bill. Who is to decide as to the protection of others? The hon. Member for Stirlingshire (Dr. Chapple) thinks that certain things are for the advantage of the race. Hon. Members opposite think that compulsory service is for the advantage of the race. Others think that compulsory segregation or compulsory education is for the advantage of the race. But what they think is not evidence, and I wish to have in this Clause a form of words which would not enable a magistrate or any other person to say that somebody requires protection. I think it is undesirable to leave in the Bill a form of words so absolutely vague and liable to be interpreted a hundred different ways by people of different temperaments. The ordinary way to interpret "protection of others" is to say that it is protection against absolute physical violence. If that could be made clear by the addition of these words, I would be satisfied, but I know that such an Amendment as that would not be accepted.
What the supporters of the Bill mean is not protection of people from violence, but the segregation of people so that they shall not have children. They mean to protect future generations who might be deteriorated in stamina or brain by having feeble-minded people for parents or grandparents. That is the kind of protection the hon. Member for Stirlingshire has in view, and it is also the kind of protection which the Home Office are after. If it is not so, would they be willing to insert the words "against physical danger." They will not accept these words, nor will they agree to the excision of the words I propose to omit. I am bound to believe, and I am fortified in the belief, that the object is not what appears on the surface, namely, the protection of these unfortunate people for their own benefit, or the protection of others from the danger of these mentally defective persons. What they wish is protection of the race and the building up of a finer type of people to be better wealth producers in the country. If the Government will accept words to provide against physical danger, I would withdraw my Amendment. In that case, I think the majority of hon. Members who have studied the question will agree that the Bill would be improved from the point of view of the mentally defective, whatever it might be from the point of view of Eugenics.
My hon. Friend has fallen into error with regard to this Clause. He stated in his first speech that it was a compulsory Clause. I assure him he is mistaken. It is a Definition Clause, and the words he proposes to omit are really a useful guide in the definition of a defective person. They are not operative in any sense themselves. The omission of these words would neither assist nor be detrimental to a mentally defective person. They would enable a doctor when certifying to have some light as to what was intended by the Legislature by this definition. I hope my hon. Friend who has misapprehended the purpose of the Clause will not press the Amendment.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what the Legislature does mean by the words? Do the Government mean to protect other people from physical danger, or to protect the community from the production of an inferior race?
If what my hon. Friend describes as powers of a Eugenic character underlie the Bill, there would be some point in his request, but he has to give us the powers which the Bill gives to deal with defectives. In order to ascertain what is meant by the protection of defectives for their own advantage or for the protection of others, I would have to go through the whole Bill to see how these words should be interpreted.
It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman has totally disregarded the question. I wish to know what ordinary interpretation he would put on the words, "for the protection of others." He says the Clause is not a compulsory, but a Definition Clause. That is the merest quibble. People who come within the scope of the Clause are to be compulsorily segregated. People can go into these institutions voluntarily without being inside the definition at all. I am sorry, as the Home Secretary will not accept this Amendment, or any similar Amendment, I shall be compelled to divide the House upon it.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move, in paragraph (c), to leave out the word "are" ["are incapable of receiving proper benefit"], and to insert instead therof the words "that they by reason of such defectiveness appear to be permanently."
My hon. Friend the Member for Stirlingshire (Dr. Chapple) has pointed out to me that to make the Amendment in the form in which it appears on the Paper, in which the words are "defectiveness are permanently," would be to compel a doctor to take upon himself the character of a prophet, and therefore I have substituted for the word "are" the words "appear to be." The word "permanent" has a meaning which would apply to the future as well as the past. A doctor could form his opinion as to the past and come to a definite conclusion as to the future, but he would not like to say that any person would be permanently incapable. Therefore, in view of my hon. Friend's criticism, I have moved the Amendment to insert the words "that they by reason of such defectiveness appear to be permanently."I have given notice of an Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman has made another change in the wording of the Clause, and he was very careful to state that it does not affect the meaning.
Will the hon. Member be in order if he moves to leave out the word "permanently," and would I be justified in opposing the Amendment?
The word "are" is not material to the question.
I am opposed to the Amendment to the Amendment, because it would take away the force of the Amendment as it appeared on the Paper. I thought we were going to get something. I thought the Government were going to make a proposal which would make the Clause watertight.
Can the hon. Gentleman move an Amendment to an Amendment which has not yet been moved?
The hon. Member is not criticising your Amendment. He is criticising the Amendment of the Government.
The word "are," which I am talking about, is the one that comes before the word "permanently."
The word "are," which the Home Secretary proposes to leave out, is the one in paragraph (c) ["are incapable of receiving proper benefits from the instruction in ordinary schools"].
Question, "That the word 'are' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
Question proposed, "That the words, 'that they, by reason of such defectiveness, appear to be permanently,' be there inserted."
I move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "appear to be," and to insert instead thereof the word "are," which appears on the Paper before the Amendment was altered, at the instigation of the hon. Member for Stirlingshire.
I think that once you put in such a vague phrase as "appear to be" you might as well leave out the Amendment altogether. It is too ridiculously vague to be the slightest guide to a medical practitioner. There are certain types of disease which are permanent types of disease, which are recognised by drooping hands and the conformation of the skull, and various other physical signs. But if you are going to put in the words "appear to be permanent" any sort of disease can be brought within the scope of the definition. I would be in favour of the Government, as advised by their own permanent officials, rather than as advised by the hon. Member for Stirlingshire. The hon. Member is a doctor himself, and therefore a person who should be regarded with peculiar hesitation and suspicion before Amendments brought in are accepted in this off-hand way. The Government put down their Amendment after a consultation with their advisers in order to meet the very difficulties about which we have been talking, and they should stick to that Amendment.I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment. I join the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme in protesting against such words as "appear to be" in a definition. They mean nothing at all. The one thing which physicians can do surely is to prophesy with regard to things of which they have evidence. Everyone can see that certain ailments, like a cut in the hand, are merely temporary, but there are other ailments, physical and mental, which are entirely different in their nature, and have definite signs, which a doctor can see, and if he cannot see them, then the person should not be locked up. This is the very idea of the Government in introducing the Amendment, and I hope that they will not snatch away with one hand what they promise to us with the other. I would very much prefer that the Home Secretary should withdraw the Amendment altogether, rather than make it worse by putting in these words.
The hon. Member for East St. Pancras, in his last speech but one, reminded us that the Home Secretary, in Committee, told us that these definitions had been so carefully discussed last year, that it was really not worth our while wasting time on them this year. The Under-Secretary this afternoon said that we had devoted six days to the discussion of this particular definition. It is absurd then that the Home Secretary should now, at the eleventh hour, put down this Amendment, and this afternoon put down an Amendment to that Amendment. At the same time, he has told us that the Amendment to the Amendment would not affect the meaning of the Clause. Of course, it affects the meaning of the Clause. It makes his former Amendment absolutely meaningless. I object strongly both to this Amendment and to the former Amendment, because, in its former Amendment the Clause would read:—
How is it possible to say that a child at the age of seven will never be able to benefit from the instruction in ordinary schools? The right hon. Gentleman told us a short time ago that all special school children came under this heading, anyhow came under the heading "feeble-minded persons" under this Bill. Tie knows perfectly well that a very large proportion of the children in special schools do pass into the ordinary schools after a certain time. I am not going to argue now whether it is right that these special schools should be continued, or remain under the Board of Education or not. But I maintain that in certain cases it would be absolutely impossible to set up special day schools. The Bill provides for that. On the top of page 3 provision is made that where the Board of Education can certify that no suitable special school or class is available, the special school children, that is to say, the children who in ordinary circumstances would go to a special school, are sent to an institution under the Board of Control. How can you say that those children will never be able to benefit from instruction in an ordinary school? It is quite possible that, after some time, even those children who are under the Board of Control, will be able to benefit in an ordinary school, and we ought to have power to send those children back to an ordinary elementary school. Therefore, I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should not make these Amendments in the Bill at the last moment, but that he should stick to the definitions which were passed by the Committee upstairs. I hope that we shall accept neither his Amendment nor the Amendment of the hon. Member for Newcastle."Children who by reason of such defectness are permanently incapable of receiving proper benefit from the instruction in ordinary schools."
This Bill contemplates the improvement of many of those who come under its provisions. Improvement may be expected in many cases where feeble-mindedness is not due to arrested development of the brain. There may be many oases of feeble-mindedness where the origin of the condition is not known. You may have feeble-mindedness due to malnutrition, and there may be recovery after a child has been properly fed for some time. Or it may be due to special circumstances such as convulsions. It is impossible for a doctor to say of a child of seven, "This child is feeble-minded and can never improve." You could say that of an idiot or of an imbecile, or of a feeble-minded person whose feeble-minded-ness is obviously due to arrested development of the brain. But you could not say it of those exceptional cases due to other causes. Consequently, if you are going to make this test no doctor could sign a certificate, no doctor could say, "This child of seven or eight is feeble-minded now and shall remain for ever so." Doctors would not put their signatures to a certificate of that kind. The Bill contemplates the gradual improvement of many children. Some children may get in who really are not feeble-minded, but who are backward, children whose brains are normal, but who through some other reasons may manifest conditions of feeblemindedness. Unless you have these words "appear to be," it would be better not to have the Amendment at all. If the right hon. Gentleman withdraws the whole Amendment as suggested by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme that would be a solution of the question. If he does not withdraw the Amendment, those words "appear to be" ought to go in.
I think that some Amendment is absolutely necessary, because the words are too wide, and are open to all the objections which have been mentioned by the hon. Member. The words as they stand are:—
"In the case of children, are incapable of receiving proper benefit from the instruction in ordinary schools." There is not a word there about mental deficiency in any of those children, so that any child whether mentally deficient or not is liable to come under the Bill. The first part of the Clause referring to the permanent deficiency is not incorporated in the last part which stands by itself. The Home Secretary says that it does not. Those of us who are accustomed to construing Acts of Parliament for many years will agree that if a judge were construing that portion of the Clause itself he would take this view. It reads:— "Persons in whose case there exists from birth or from an early age mental defectiveness not amounting to imbecility, yet so pronounced that they require care, supervision and control for their own protection or for the protection of others …" It then goes on to say:— "or in the case of children are incapable of receiving proper benefit from the instruction in ordinary schools." That stands absolutely by itself.What is the nominative to the word "are"?
7.0 P.M.
I do not wish to undergo a cross-examination in grammar, because once you begin to criticise the grammar of this Bill it would never pass. The grammar is the weakest point in the Bill in many respects. The right hon. Gentleman is not responsible for the grammar. The draftsman is, and the Committee altered it, and some parts of it are exceedingly difficult to construe. Some Amendment is, therefore, necessary, if I am right that those words stand by themselves. The Home Secretary's words that he put in seem to me to meet the situation, but with one exception. The insertion of the word "permanently" has caused the whole difficulty here. If he had left his Amendment to read in this way in the case of children that "by reason of such defectiveness are incapable," that would be quite sufficient. To decide that they are for ever permanently incapable is impossible. If he says they are for a time and likely to continue so for some time, that is sufficient. The difficulty will be solved, I submit, by leaving out the word "permanently" and replacing the word "are."
I really think that the original form of the Amendment was best, though I do not think it makes very much difference. The hon. Member is somewhat under a misapprehension as to the meaning of the word "permanently." Permanent does not mean lasting for ever. We say a man is a permanent official, but we do not mean that he cannot be dismissed, but simply that he holds by a lasting tenure. Permanent means lasting, and in this connection not a temporary defectiveness, but a defectiveness which is likely to last the greater part of the child's life. I am not sure whether medical men do not use the word "chronic" to express that idea. I would suggest to the Home Secretary to adhere to the original form of the Amendment, and so close the discussion.
I think a great deal too much is being made of these words. We wish to make clear in the case of children that the incapacity to take advantage of the schools is by reason of mental defectiveness, and it is in order to get rid of the notion that it is mere backwardness or laziness or any other quality, but that it is because the children are incapable of getting benefit from the schools, and that the reason of that incapacity is because they are mentally defective. As to the word "permanently" the Noble Lord has really given the explanation, and we insert it because we want to distinguish whenever it is necessary mental defectiveness from other kinds of mental illness. Ordinary mental illness may be cured just as physical illness may be cured. There are occasions when physical illness is incurable just as there are occasions when mental illness is incurable. But mental defectiveness is a condition of arrested development which is permanent. It is quite possible that science may discover hereafter a means of effecting even a cure for that, and of developing the brain, but at the present time mental defectiveness is a condition of arrested development which is permanent in its nature.
Children are sent back from mentally defective schools to the ordinary school.
There is nothing whatever in Clause 2 to prevent a child being sent backwards and forwards from the special school to the ordinary school, and from the ordinary school to the special school. This definition does not touch that. It is only a guide to the doctor who has to give a certificate. You must get the children under this Clause, and under Clause 2 as well, before you can deal with them under the Bill. This does not mean that anybody included under this will be dealt with under the Bill, but only such persons as are included in this definition and who come under Clause 2 as well will be dealt with under the Bill.
It is a very great pity that the Government, having had this matter two years under consideration, and having had the same definition last year and this, through the Home Secretary, should, two days ago, give notice of such a very important and drastic Amendment. The height of absurdity is reached when, to-day, the Home Secretary tells us that in obedience to the suggestion of a medical man sitting on his own side, he is going to alter the words "to appear to be." Although this seems, at first glance, to be rather trifling, I think it is really an important point, because certain classes of people in future are going to be compulsorily locked up or taken care of, and prevented from associating with their fellow men. It is a very important thing, therefore, when a child is being dealt with by a medical man, and when he is going to give a certificate on which depends whether that child is to be removed from association with others or not. It may be the case of a girl of thirteen or fourteen years of age, and a question arises: Is that girl to be locked up and segregated from the rest of the people? The medival man says, "Let us look at the Act of Parliament." He does not know the astonishing course of events in this House, and he probably signs the certificate. His excuse is probably, "Oh, yes, it appeared to me to be a case of that kind." He was not satisfied that there was permanent incapacity, but there was the appearance. We are asked to alter this Bill at this stage at the instance of the Government by putting in these words about "permanently," and we are asked at the last moment to make a farce of the whole thing and to put it into the hands of the medical profession. Ordinary members of the medical profession will not, we know, give a certificate of this kind, without very grave and very careful consideration, but we know also that forty or fifty years ago people were sent to asylums, and we know of the horrors that took place in some of those, and now we are going to start afresh the system of locking people up and segregating them at a moment's notice, and to allow medical men to act upon something that appears to be the case. I think the Home Secretary will be well advised to leave both these Amendments out and certainly to withdraw the second Amendment which is an astonishing one and against which I would vote.
I wish to ask the Home Secretary not to put himself in a similar difficulty again. We had the whole question of these Amendments threshed out over and over again upstairs, and we thought some permanent settlement had been arrived at about these definitions. We spent many weary days up there and now we are told two days before this stage, that this definition is going to be altered and some further Amendments made. I should prefer the words as they are actually in the Bill, and on behalf of my Friends who supported the Home Secretary through the Committee stage may I say we are somewhat
Division No. 209.]
| AYES.
| [7.10 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Clough, William | Griffith, Ellis Jones |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Clynes, John R. | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |
| Adamson, William | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Hackett, John |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hancock, J. G. |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Cowan, W. H. | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) |
| Allen, Rt Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Crumley, Patrick | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Cullinan, John | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Hayward, Evan |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Hazleton, Richard |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Dawes, James Arthur | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Barnes, George N. | Delany, William | Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen) |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Barton, William | Devlin, Joseph | Higham, John Sharp |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Dewar, Sir J. A. | Hinds, John |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Dickinson, W. H. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Dillon, John | Hodge, John |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Donelan, Captain A. | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Doris, William | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Duffy, William J. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Boland, John Plus | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Duncan. J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | John, Edward Thomas |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Elverston, Sir Harold | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Nots, Rushcliffe) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Joyce, Michael |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Keating, Matthew |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Kelly, Edward |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Field, William | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Fitzgibbon, John | Kilbride, Denis |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | King, Joseph |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Ginnell, Laurence | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Lardner, James C. R. |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Glanville, H. J. | Leach, Charles |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Goldstone, Frank | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Greig, Colonel J. W. | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert |
astonished that at the instigation of some other Members of the House he has allowed himself to put down an Amendment which in my humble opinion does not advance the cause of the Bill one bit, about which too much time has already been wasted. I shall certainly vote against the word "permanently." I understand that "are" being left out there are difficulties in the way of inserting it back again. I would like to suggest the words "by reason of such defectiveness are incapable," which will get it what it was before and will meet my hon. Friends point that feeble-minded persons had no relation to this provision. By that means we do nothing to disturb the existing definitions which were passed with such care by the Committee. The words will make the matter more explicit. I trust the Home Secretary will consider that suggestion.
Question put, "That the words 'appear to be,' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
The House divided: Ayes, 230; Noes, 78.
| Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Lundon, Thomas | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Lynch, A. A. | O'Shee, James John | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Sutherland, John E. |
| McGhee, Richard | Parry, Thomas H. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Thomas, James Henry |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Pointer, Joseph | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Marks, Sir George Croydon | Radford, G. H. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Meagher, Michael | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Wardle, George J. |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Reddy, Michael | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Molloy, Michael | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Webb, H. |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Mooney, John J. | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Morison, Hector | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Muldoon, John | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Munro, Robert | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Nicholson, Sir Charles M. (Doncaster) | Robinson, Sidney | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Nolan, Joseph | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Norton, Captain Cecil William | Rowlands, James | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Nuttall, Harry | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Winfrey, Richard |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Scanlan, Thomas | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| O'Dowd, John | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. | |
| O'Grady, James | Sheehy, David | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook | |
| O'Malley, William | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Helmsley, Viscount | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Hills, John Waller | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Barnston, Harry | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hogge, James Myles | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Horner, Andrew Long | Stanier, Beville |
| Bird, Alfred | Houston, Robert Paterson | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Boyton, James | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Butcher, John George | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Swift, Rigby |
| Cautley, Henry Strothor | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Martin, Joseph | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, North) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Morrell, Philip | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Mount, William Arthur | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Neilson, Francis | Weston, Colonel J. W. |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Newman, John R. P. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Fell, Arthur | Perkins, Walter F. | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Fletcher, John Samuel | Peto, Basil Edward | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Pringle, William M. R. | Younger, Sir George |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | |
| Greene, Walter Raymond | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Benniss. |
| Gretton, John | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | |
Words inserted in the Bill.
Further Amendment made: In paragraph ( c) leave out the word "are" ["children are incapable of receiving"] and insert instead thereof the words "that they by reason of such defectiveness appear to be permanently."—[ Mr. McKenna.]
I beg to move in paragraph (c) to leave out the word "ordinary" ["instruction in ordinary schools"], and to insert instead thereof the words "special school or class."
This is a very important Amendment dealing with a point raised in every speech which has criticised the definition of "feeble-minded person." At present the definition runs, so far as children are concerned, "are incapable of receiving the proper benefit from the instruction in ordinary schools." I want to alter that by saying instead of "ordinary schools," "special schools or classes." Everybody is agreed that it is much too wide a definition of feeblemindedness to say that every child too backward to get on in an ordinary elementary school should be classed as a defective person. There is a large measure of agreement for saying that every child not capable of taking proper advantage of special schools or classes should be considered to be mentally defective. The Home Secretary said in his speech just now that the people to be dealt with are those people who are weeded out of the special schools and classes rather than those people who are weeded out of ordinary elementary schools. This alteration will make that quite clear. This alteration is one which I believe will meet his view. No one would class as mentally defective a child too backward to take advantage of the ordinary elementary school education. But we all want to have classed as defective such children as are unable to take full advantage of special schools or classes. The scheme is that children in these special schools and classes between the ages of seven and sixteen will gradually be weeded out, and that one-third or one-half of the children between those ages will be found to be not capable of taking advantage of the education provided in special schools, and will, therefore, be weeded out. Those are the people who we all want to have dealt with; and those are the people whom we think this Act will benefit. This is an alteration in the definition which, I believe, will meet with the support of the House. I think, if the Government will give it their careful consideration, they will allow it to be adopted. The only reason, as I understand it, why the words "ordinary school" remain in in place of "special school," is because there are in so many parts of the country no special schools. That is only a temporary state of affairs. In a very few years these special schools will be universal, and as soon as they are universal then your definition will hold water perfectly satisfactorily: A transitional period has to be dealt with. When we are making a law which shall be a permanent part of our jurisprudence and shall for all time dis- tinguish the mentally defective person from the normal person, we should take a broad view and not so cut our definition, that it is incapable of dealing with the temporary circumstances of the present day. If the Home Secretary and the House really mean to deal simply with children who cannot be educated in special schools, either because they are too nervous, or because their habits are offensive, or because they cannot take advantage of the special instruction, let them make it clear in the definition and let them not so word the definition as to embrace children incapable of receiving instruction in ordinary schools. You make arrangements in Section 2 to deal with children not in special schools, children weeded out in the nine years between the ages of seven and sixteen, and childen who, when they reach sixteen, are picked out by the education authority as being in need of further care and supervision. Why not make the definition in Section 1 coincide with that? I therefore beg to move.Amendment not seconded.
I beg to move in paragraph (c), after the word "ordinary" ["instruction in ordinary schools"] to insert the words "public elementary."
The fact that I got no seconder for the other Amendment only indicates the interest which the House takes in this Bill. The reason for this Amendment is that I do not know what an "ordinary school" is; everybody knows what an "ordinary public elementary school" is. The word "ordinary" has been used here so as to try to conceal the fact that this Bill is class legislation, legislation for the poor only. There is no possibility of testing the rich man's child. He may or may not be receiving benefit in these schools. It is only the children of poor people that are being dealt with. I cannot understand why, if this is so, it is not explicitly stated to be so, instead of being left vague, as it is at the present time. I do not know what an "ordinary school" is. I know what an "ordinary public elementary school" is. If that is what is intended it ought to be stated. If, on the other hand, you mean something else by an ordinary school, something that is entirely different from the public elementary school, in that case it would be well that we should have some explanation from the Home Secretary as to what exactly is intended by the words "ordinary school."
I beg to second the Amendment. I quite agree with the hon. Member that "ordinary school" has no legal meaning whatever. The usual term is "ordinary public elementary school." That is the term used in the Elementary Education Act of 1899. I therefore think the right hon. Gentleman should really accept the Amendment.
The words "ordinary schools" are in contradistinction to the words "special schools." It is a very strange thing that the hon. Member himself should want to introduce words into this Bill that stamps it as clans legislation, of which we want even to avoid the suspicion. The only thing that can be said for the Amendment is that it is a sort of verbal expansion of the Subsection.
The defence of the Bill by the Under-Secretary, though perhaps convenient and plausible, is not quite a satisfactory one. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the Definition Clause of the Bill he will see that the special school or class is a special school or class within the meaning of the Elementary Education (Defective and Epileptic Children) Acts. Take any middle-class family that send their child to a small privately managed school. We heard some very incisive and scathing descriptions of some of these schools from the President of the Board of Education— and some of them deserve it, for they are scandalous—but it would not do to make the instruction given in that sort of school and the methods of instruction the test as to whether or not the child is mentally deficient. I do not think that you gain very much by the expression "ordinary schools," but the matter is not worth while detaining the House for. I should have thought on the face of it that the Amendment was rather more reasonable than otherwise.
I should like to suggest to the Home Secretary that instead of adhering to the word "ordinary," he should put in the word "special." If he will remember, certain Clauses of an Act which the Under-Secretary seems to have forgotten provides that taking in conjunction with the Elementary Education Act that a boy—
That point has already been raised, and the House has passed from it.
I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker; perhaps I may say this, that a special school is a class or department to which the child is sent if it is found to be incapable of receiving instruction in the ordinary classes—
That argument has already been used, and we have disposed of it.
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.
I beg to move, in paragraph (d), to leave out the words "who from an early age display some permanent mental defect coupled with strong vicious or criminal propensities on which punishment has little or no deterrent effect," and to insert instead thereof the words "who, by reason of arrested development or disease of the brain dating from birth or from early years, display at an early age vicious or criminal propensities which are of an incorrigible or unusual nature and are generally associated with some slight limitation of intellect."
Nothing in the Sub-section is said as to what is the age at which the punishment has been or is to be inflicted, or whether it has been or is to be done by domestic punishment by parents or guardians, or by criminal punishment under the criminal law, nor how this deterrent effect of punishment is to be in any way decided. The words of the Amendment are very definite; but the words in the Sub-section do not seem to me to have at all any very definite or intelligible meaning. At the same time, I do not wish to press the Amendment. I should like the Government to explain what meaning they attach to these words in the Sub-section, especially the closing-words relating to punishment.I beg to second the Amendment.
What Amendment is the Noble Lord moving?
The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hogge).
I should myself have no objection if we were starting the Bill afresh to take the words put down by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, instead of the words which stand in the Bill, because they both mean precisely the same thing. The words which stand in the Bill were considered by the Committee at considerable length. I think they are good words, precisely emphasising the kind of person with whom we hope to deal. There is probably in the mind of every Member in the House a certain type of person who, like Jane Cakebread, has been convicted some hundreds of times. She is exactly the kind of person whom we hope to deal with under this particular Sub-section. She and persons like her develop at a very early age what we call moral imbecility. It appears that from the very earliest age they suffer from some moral defect without being at all bad persons in the ordinary sense of the term, and even not being criminals in the ordinary sense. You may send them to prison not a hundred or two hundred times, but some hundreds, as in the case of Jane Cakebread, but this kind of punishment has not the slightest effect. She was really a feeble-minded person. It is not a very large class, but it is a class which we hope to deal with under this Section, which must be read in its entirety —that is to say, he or she must be a person who, from a very early age, has displayed some permanent mental defect, and, coupled with that permanent mental defect, must be of some vicious or criminal propensity. We have endeavoured so far as we can to define these vicious propensities. The words we have chosen are words for those persons on which punishment has little or no deterrent effect; but we mean precisely the same thing as in the very excellent words of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh. I hope the House will agree to stand by the Grand Committee in its proposal and to adhere to these words.
I hope the Noble Lord will not press the Amendment. The reason it is down in my name and also various other Amendments, is that while discussing the Definition Clause in the Scottish Grand Committee, we refrained from continuing our criticisms on the ground that the definitions for both Bills ought to be the same, and we were given to understand that if any alterations were made in the English Bill they would also apply to the Scottish Bill. I think everybody will agree that to alter the definitions in the Bills as they stand, we should only be prolonging time before we come to a conclusion, and therefore we thought it better to concentrate upon the administrative Clauses instead of these Amendments.
I will not press it to a Division, but I gathered from the Home Secretary that the acts he contemplated are criminal acts. I think there is a widespread misconception as to what is the meaning of the words "early age." I confess I think it ought to be limited. I understand the hon. Member opposite has another Amendment dealing with this matter, and I shall reserve any further criticisms for that.
This Clause is not meant to deal particularly or chiefly with Jane Cakebread's. I think it is mean to deal chiefly with prostitutes, and we want to be careful not to widen the Clause to such an extent that people who are puritanical by tendency will be able to lock all prostitutes up. We want to see there is no loophole left in the definition to embrace people whose moral defect is of that sort, and I am afraid the example of Jane Cakebread is not of much value. I do not think the Home Secretary knows what moral or mental state is in early infancy. The definition, it seems to me, might very well exclude Jane Cakebread's, and might also include all those people, such as prostitutes, as feeble-minded persons. I am afraid this definition of moral imbecile as its stands might be twisted to that purpose. Therefore, I think it is just as well that we ought to look into the Amendments proposed to this Clause very carefully and see that we make it sufficiently clear that a mere moral lapse, even of a very bad sort, it is true, but still a lapse of morality, should not be sufficient to result in incarceration in a feebled-minded institution.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move, in paragraph (d), to leave out the words "from an early age" ["that is to say, persons who from an early age display some permanent mental defect"].
This is an entirely different matter from that which has just been disposed of. There are moral imbeciles who are not so from an early age. Let me give two examples which I think ought to come under the provisions of this Bill. There was the case of a young man of twenty-five whom I once knew who got a cut on the forehead which separated the tables of the skull, and ever afterwards, although previously entirely normal and of a high character, he was a moral imbecile. He had no power of self-control; his will was entirely gone. That is a case that was a fit subject to come under this Bill, yet he was not a moral imbecile from an early age. Not infrequently both men and women get hæmorrhage of the brain and the pressure of the clot will produce a moral and mental defect which will express itself in moral imbecility. There you have a question of moral imbecility which started from injury to the brain, but not from early age, but which produced mental defects. Sunstroke frequently produces moral imbecility which does not manifest itself in any way except in loss of moral power. If we strike out the words "from an early age" we would bring these cases in and we would embrace all cases, whether congenital defects of the brain or whether produced by some disorder such as I have mentioned. Diseases of the brain producing melancholia or insanity come under the Lunacy Act, but where the lesion referred to produces moral defects, I think it ought to be included in the scope of this Act.I beg to second the Amendment.
A case was put very strongly before me that this Bill ought to deal with recidivists, as there has been a considerable difficulty found in dealing with "ins" and "outs," and the suggestion was made that instead of saying that they should have the ordinary punishment of the criminal law, some special form of treatment under this Bill might be used for these persons on the ground that probably it is advisable to treat such persons as "ins" and "outs" as moral imbeciles.I regret that it is impossible for me to recommend the House to accept this Amendment. The Bill proposes to deal with mental diseases and particular diseases which have manifested themselves from birth or an early age. We cannot, therefore, accept an Amend-which would greatly extend the Bill, and give point to the charge made by my hon. Friend (Mr. Wedgwood) that it would be possible to affect people whom it is not intended to affect. We must adhere to the Bill as it stands with all its safeguards.
It seems to me you could not have a more magnificent example than this discussion affords of how necessary it is that women should have the vote.
Amendment put, and negatived.
I beg to move, in paragraph (d), to leave out the words "an early age," and to insert instead thereof the words "three years of age."
I am informed that infancy means up to twenty-one years of age, and although that is definite enough it seems to me to be too late. The meaning of an early age, as I understand it, is two or three years of age. Moral imbeciles are those persons who from the age of three or before display some permanent mental defect coupled with strong, vicious, or criminal propensities. I am given to understand that the Home Secretary interprets early age to mean the age of two or three. It is obvious that so long as vague words remain in the Bill you will have it interpreted in different ways by those who have the administration of the Act. We think early age contemplates the ages of two or three or what they call infancy, and therefore I wish the paragraph to read "moral imbeciles, that is to say, persons who from three years of age display some permanent mental defect coupled with strong, vicious, or criminal propensities." [Laughter.] I am sorry hon. Gentlemen opposite do not see the importance of this Amendment. I am quite aware they think it would be a good thing to have as many people as possible locked up. I am one of those who wish to see as few people as possible locked up, and I want the age to be put as early as possible to make quite sure that the people dealt with here are really feeble-minded, and not to have people locked up whom the Home Secretary desires, or whom the Conservative party desires to see locked up. We want mental deficiency to mean mental deficiency from an early age, and I am therefore anxious to make it clear that infancy means three years of age and not to leave the matter to the judgment of cranks.Amendment not seconded.
I beg to move in paragraph (d), to leave out the word "mental" ["display some permanent mental defect"], and to insert instead thereof the word "moral."
This is a drafting Amendment, but it seems to me important. You are dealing with mentally defective persons and the use of the word "mental" here seems to me to be tautological. If they have a mental defect they are mentally defective, and I suggest therefore in the interests of common sense we should strike out the word "mental," and insert the word "moral."Amendment not seconded.
I beg to move in paragraph (d), to leave out the words "on which punishment has little or no deterrent effect."
I do not think these words add anything to the sense of the Sub-section, and I think they may have a very mischievous meaning. I do not altogether appreciate the examples given by the Home Secretary just now when he referred to the case of Jane Cakebread. I hope this Bill is designed to do away with such cases. Surely, the whole object of this Bill is to take away from those mentally defective from early years such careers as those of Jane Cakebread. We want to take care of those people before they have become vicious in that way. The words of the Sub-section as they stand really remind one of the old days when it was thought that the cure for lunacy was to give a man a good thrashing. I hope we have advanced beyond that, and I should like to have some explanation from the Home Secretary as to what he really does mean.8.0 P.M.
I second the Amendment, which I think is one of some importance. It is impossible to see how the Court would interpret the Sub-section. They could not have the defective tortured in order to see whether it did or not produce a deterrent effect, and how will you decide what measure of punishment is to be considered sufficient to prove that the mentally deficient person comes within the terms of the Sub-section?
I regret that I cannot accept the proposal of my hon. Friend. It would extend the scope of this definition very much if we accepted the Amendment. The case of Jane Cakebread was quoted by me as a case which was recently in the mind of all of us, but there are others now living who would have to be dealt with under this Bill and who have long since passed the school age. I quite agree that thirty years hence we shall hope that all people of this kind will have been brought under the operation of the Bill at a much younger age than Jane Cakebread was, but we have to deal with criminals of that kind now. The reason why I think we have to insert these words is because experience must have shown, in the case of these persons, that they are a kind of person on whom ordinary punishment has no deterrent effect. This is a definition Clause, and unless we put in some words of that kind we shall be proposing to treat moral imbeciles in a manner in which we do not treat any other class of defective person under the Bill. It will be found in Clause 2 that except in the case of children nobody can be treated as a defective person under the Bill who has not done something which has brought them in contact with the law. In the case of moral imbeciles, we propose that they shall if by evidence it can be shown that punishment has not had, in fact, a deterrent effect upon them. But omitting the words would be to leave the case of moral imbeciles upon a conjecture. We do not propose, in the case of any defective person under the Bill, that it shall be left merely to conjecture in order to give power to deal with them. There must be a proved case, and we propose in the case of moral imbeciles also that it must have been proved that punishment in their case has had no deterrent effect.
I can quite understand these actual words being open to some objection. I quite agree with the intention of the Government and with the intention of the Bill, but I do think these words are perhaps a little too drastic, and that it would be better if some other words could be substituted for them. I would like to suggest these words: "and who have been found to be incorrigible by ordinary methods." I think that is really all that the Government want, and these words appear to me to be a good deal better. They do not lend themselves to people to blaspheme, and to say that you have got to torture a person to find out whether he is incorrigible or not. Moral influence, persuasion, and so forth might be more effective in reforming these people than punishment, and yet they would come within the definition of incorrigible, so I venture to suggest to the Home Secretary this alternative form of words.
It is not the point put by the Noble Lord I am concerned about. It is quite a new form of offence against Society to be a moral imbecile, and looking at these words I was thinking how I myself might get on if they became law. I feel certain that I should answer almost everyone of them except the word "vicious," to which I do not plead guilty; but I have done things which some people consider to be criminal, and that no amount of punishment has over prevented me from doing, because I did not think they were criminal. That seems certainly to be a case which one can sympathise with, and which one sees very much in evidence at the present time. Take the case of the man who is fond of poaching. If he were a wealthy man, and could hunt, and could thoroughly enjoy his sport, he would not he a poacher. It is the old propensity of the hunter that makes the poacher as a rule, and he will keep on poaching from the time he is a boy till he is an old man, find you can put him into prison a hundred times, and still he does it. Is he a moral imbecile upon whom punishment has no deterrent effect?
Does he suffer from a mental defect?
There are plenty of old squires who would think it was a mental defect. Those gentlemen who like foxhunting and pheasants, and who do not like them to be destroyed, do not like a man who cannot see the illegality and the criminality of it, and who, because he has no pheasants of his own, started to shoot other people's. It seems to me that a case of that kind might be included. I venture to suggest that there must be something different to these words. Take the case that is greatly agitating society just now, and that is the case of the Suffragettes. As a matter of fact, I should imagine that you could land everyone of them under these words. I would like some lawyer to point out to me how you could not. Certainly, they are criminal to burn people's places down, without any object at all, apparently, except to destroy the chances of the cause they are supposed to advocate. Surely, that must be imbecile and criminal. It seems to me to meet almost every one of the points, and the Clause seems dangerous just as it stands. Even supporting the Bill as I do, I would like to be sure that you were not passing a law to deal with what you believe to be one phase of mental deficiency, which everybody is agreed ought to be controlled, and then some lawyer comes along—and you never know what lawyers may do—and extends the principle to things which you never contemplated. I think there ought to be some saving words in this Clause.
I hope the Home Secretary will not accept the Amendment. It is very difficult, once we get an involved discussion about the particular form of words, to know when to finish. We have spent weeks upon these definitions, and these are the best that we can arrive at. It is extremely easy to criticise and to make these definitions. The hon. Member who spoke last need not be under any alarm, because these are only definition Clauses. He ought to read Clause 2, where he may see the persons to whom these cases are applicable. He should read the definitions in conjunction with Clause 2, and he will see that the Bill is not nearly so alarming as it appears from the definition Clauses. All the suggestions he made are strictly met by Clause 2. As I said at the beginning, I hope the Home Secretary will not make any alterations to this Clause. I do not think any practical good is likely to come out of it, because it is a matter which has been very carefully considered.
I think the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Helmsley) has suggested a form of words which meets all the Amendments on the. Paper, and which I think would apply satisfactorily. He proposes to substitute for these words the words, "and who have been found to be incorrigible by ordinary methods." It is the same meaning but avoids some of the pitfalls in the existing words, and if that were in accordance with the general wishes of the House, I would be quite prepared to leave out these words and to accept the Amendment of the Noble Lord, if he will move it.
I regret very much that the Home Secretary has accepted any change in these words. I quite realise the difficulties, but this definition was one arrived at by the Royal Commission in these exact words, and it was arrived at after consultation with a great number of mental experts, and also after consultation with the Royal College of Physicians. It is a very difficult thing to define a moral imbecile, and this definition in the Bill was proposed by those who knew all the facts and whose object it was to put the facts of life in regard to these moral imbeciles into a definition which will meet the case. That was discussed not only by the witnesses before the Royal Commission, but also at considerable length by the Royal Commission itself, by the Committee upstairs last year and by the Committee upstairs this year, and we have not been able to find any better words. At this last moment the words suggested by the Noble Lord I do not think would be any improvement. If we are going to bring into this class persons who must have been punished in one way or another, I think you may be making a mistake. There is, first of all, the permanent mental defect at an early age—that is congenital imbecility of a kind. Secondly, it must be coupled with a strong vicious propensity, on which propensity punishment has little or no deterrent effect, and that is the whole question, whether the person has sufficient intellect to connect the punishment with the crime. Punishment has no effect on the moral imbecile, because he is unable to connect the punishment with the crime, and that is what is meant by these words, "on whom punishment has little or no deterrent effect." It always has been a difficulty to find the right words, and I doubt very much whether the words suggested at the last moment by the Noble Lord and accepted by the Home Secretary are really an improvement on the Clause.
I hope the Home Secretary does not intend to accept this suggestion. Let me point out in a few words what the operation of this Section will be. In the first place, anybody who is found to be, in the opinion of a doctor, obsessed by a mental defect, and to have vicious or criminal propensities, may be sent to a place of confinement as a mentally defective, in the first place on a petition; secondly, if he happens to be in an industrial school, on a mere letter of cachet of the Home Secretary, with absolutely no protection beyond the medical certificates given by the officers of the industrial school or reformatory or prison in which the person is confined; and thirdly, he may be sent under an order. Surely the Home Secretary must, on reflection, agree that there should be proof that the person has strong vicious or criminal propensities! How are you going to get that proof? The only effective proof you can get is that proof which we lawyers are accustomed to receive as proof, namely, that the person has been convicted twice, or more times, and that the punishment has proved to be no deterrent. To leave it entirely in the discretion of the Home Secretary, or to a magistrate on petition, to send a young person who is detained in an industrial school because his parent or his guardian or his schoolmaster, or possibly a stranger, states that he is a person incorrigible, is, to my mind, one of the most ridiculous travesties in law one could conceive. There is absolutely no protection for the liberty of the subject, and I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to adhere to the Clause as it stands, subject, I hope, to the acceptance of an Amendment which I propose to move. I think that it is a reasonable one. It is really that the punishment shall be punishment by law, i.e., by a Court of Criminal Jurisdiction. I would, therefore, venture most strongly to urge that to make this extraordinary departure from the elementary principles of criminal jurisprudence requires; something more than the advice of medical men. I need hardly comment upon this Section, because it is full of words which to lawyers have no meaning. What is a moral imbecile? In the very next paragraph we are told that a moral imbecile is a mentally defective. They are not necessarily the same. Thirdly, we are told that he has vicious propensities. The logic is almost as bad as the grammar. The grammar goes on to say "on which punishment." I have considered this Clause very carefully, and I do really most urgently press upon the-Home Secretary to revert to the Clause as it was originally drawn.
The speech of the hon. Member and of others leads me to conclude that there is not the smallest chance of the Amendment of the Noble Lord being accepted, and, therefore, I have no-alternative except to adhere to the Clause as it stands.
I desire to say why I ask the Home Secretary to adhere to his words. I quite appreciate the object of the Noble Lord, but, if the Home Secretary will look at the words that are suggested, he will find that he is getting on very dangerous ground. He is using the word "incorrigible," which may mean something quite different from that which the Noble Lord means. I remember those two lines very well in Committee. We worked on them some time and discussed them very fully, and I both recollect and confirm all that has been said by the hon. Member for St. Pancras (Captain Jessel). We endeavoured to find some definition of a moral imbecile, and we got so far as the words "coupled with strong vicious or criminal propensities." It was then said by somebody, "you have not taken any steps to cure these propensities by punish- ment, and, before deciding that they are mentally defective, you ought to proceed by some of the ordinary methods." Very well, here are the words, "But which punishment has little or no deterrent effect." If you accept the words of the Noble Lord you introduce words well known in Police Courts. If a person is found to be incorrigible by ordinary methods, what does that mean? It means that, after having been treated by the criminal law, he is found to be incorrigible. That is not what the Committee mean, and it is not what they want. They would be startled if they found that they were introducing as a qualification to what we hope will be the humane treatment under this Bill that the poor defective must go through a number of attendances and sentences at the Police Court until it has been found by Police Court methods that he is incorrigible. That is not the object of the Bill, and I am quite certain that it is not the intention of this House. They do not want all that unfortunate treatment meted out to the poor defective; they want to deal with him in a much kinder way than that. I, therefore, think that the words of the Noble Lord fail of their object, and I hope that the Homo Secretary will adhere to the words that have been adopted after very careful consideration by two Committees and by the doctors.
When the hon. Gentleman refers to the consideration in Committee he must be referring to last year and not to this year.
November and December.
Yes, not this Session. There was no consideration of this particular Sub-section this Session so far as I have been able to remember, and I wish to protest very vigorously against the two speeches made by the hon. Member for St. Pancras (Captain Jessel), in which he led the House to understand that there was free discussion upstairs, and that it was only after careful labour and thought that the Committee passed this Clause. That is not my recollection at all. There was, so far as I am aware, no discussion upstairs at all on this particular Sub-section.
The hon. Member was not on the Committee last year.
No, I am talking of this year.
I am talking of both Committees.
I do not know what occurred last year. I am speaking of this year.
I adhere to what I said.
That may be so, but I understood the hon. Gentleman to say that it was this year there was a long and careful consideration of this Sub-clause. Surely we have got nothing to do with what occurred last year. That is all dead and gone. We are going on this year's proceedings. In Committee upstairs there was no discussion on any point or principle of importance in this Bill. Small points of drafting and unimportant provisions were discussed and Amendments made, but when it came to a Clause like this we got the answer, which has been given this afternoon, that it was a Clause drawn up by the Royal Commission, and we must not touch a word of it. That was the whole point of the discussion upstairs in regard to any point of importance or of real principle. We could get a change in regard to drafting, but on anything like the question now before us the hon. Member for North St. Pancras came with the statement that those were the words the Royal Commission had advised, and that they, being experts, were far better able to legislate than many Members of the House of Commons. I protest against this House thinking for a moment that they should pass this Bill through as it is because there has been such a careful and prolonged discussion upstairs. As a matter of fact, there was no discussion whatever. I quite agree that if the Clause is not to be modified as the Amendment proposes, the wording as it is would be very much better than the wording proposed by the Noble Lord.
I appeal to the Government to go further, and not only refuse the suggestion, but also to strike out those words. They will have a definition which will be quite sufficient for the purpose of the Bill without those words, and if they do that they will at any rate show that they are not, after all, bound down to the very words given, with the i's dotted by the Royal Commission. I object to that kind of legislation. I am aware that a number of Gentlemen have devoted their time for months to this one question, but that is not the point; the House of Commons, after all, is surely the final judge. I do think, after the pertinent arguments we have had, and after the very strong arguments advanced by the Mover of the Amendment, who is one of the most faithful supporters of the Bill, that the Government ought to be willing to give us a chance to modify the extreme rigour of this Bill. It is all very well for the Home Secretary to say that it is not a rigorous Bill, and that it does not send people to gaol. We read it and we find these things in it, and when we seek to modify some particular Sub-section, the answer is, "You will destroy the whole Bill if you change the wording." It surely cannot, be that, if you leave out these words, the Bill will be in any respect weaker than at present. The only difference it will make will be the giving way to those of us who, while not objecting to the principle of the Bill, do object to the very harsh and rigorous way in which the defectives are taken hold of and sent to gaol for all their lives. I do appeal to the Home Secretary to accept this Amendment, supported as it is by persons who, like myself, are opposed to the Bill, and also by hon. Members who, like the hon. Member who introduced the Amendment, are in favour of it.I protest against the idea that the Committee last year considered this question. After all, if these definitions are inspired and come down from on high, we did last year alter definition (c), and now we are told by the hon. Member for St. Pancras that definition (d) is morally inspired. When we got to definition (c), the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) and I retired, satisfied that the Committee and that the Government had dropped the Bill. They
Division No. 210.]
| AYES
| [8.34 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Burn, Colonel C. R. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Beck, Arthur Cecil | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Adamson, William | Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Butcher, John George |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Bethell, Sir J. H. | Byles, Sir William Pollard |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bird, Alfred | Cassel, Felix |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Boland, John Pius | Cautley, Henry Strother |
| Arnold, Sydney | Bowerman, Charles W. | Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Chapple, Dr. William Allen |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Clancy, John Joseph |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Boyton, James | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Brace, William | Clough, William |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Brady, Patrick Joseph | Clynes, John R. |
| Barnes, George N. | Bridgeman, William Clive | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Barnston, Harry | Brunner, John F. L. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Bryce, J. Annan | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |
| Barton, William | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Crumley, Patrick |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Burke, E. Haviland- | Cullinan, John |
have now said that this definition is sacrosanct. As the Home Secretary has ventured to suggest that there might possibly be found another form of words, I want to know whether my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras, who represents the opposite school, could not agree to this Amendment, which is precisely what was suggested by Dr. Vemon Hollander, and which might on that account secure respect. The words of my Amendment are "corrective measures applied during their education and training," etc. That gets away from the idea of flogging and imprisonment. The House must recognise that the definition of imbeciles is meant to deal primarily with children. The question of dealing with adults is purely a temporary one. After all, mentally defective persons will be sifted out and prevented from going into the world in their school days, and, therefore, there will be scarcely any mentally defective adults. When we talk of punishment it means punishment in the ordinary elementary schools; it does not mean punishment by imprisonment or anything of that sort, it means punishment in the ordinary years of school. You want a very different definition when you are going to deal with children, and one suitable to children during school years. That was the suggestion of Dr. Vernon Hollander, and that it what I have adopted in the Amendment which stands on the Paper in my name, for the application of corrective measures during school years. I do not know whether it is possible for the Home Secretary to accept the Amendment, but I do hope he will not regard every Amendment from this quarter as one to be objected to at once.
Question put, "That the words 'on which punishment,' stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes. 249; Noes, 37.
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Jones, William S. Glyn-(Stepney) | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Delany, William | Joyce, Michael | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Keating, Matthew | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Kellaway, Frederick George | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Kelly, Edward | Radford, G. H. |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Dillon, John | Kerry, Earl of | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Kilbride, Denis | Reddy, Michael |
| Doris, William | King, Joseph | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lardner, James C. R. | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Leach, Charles | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lewisham, Viscount | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Lundon, Thomas | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lynch, A. A. | Robinson, Sidney |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Rowlands, James |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | McGhee, Richard | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Macpherson, James Ian | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sheehy, David |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Gilmour, Captain John | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Ginnell, Laurence | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Glanville, H. J. | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Goldstone, Frank | Meagher, Michael | Stewart, Gershom |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Gulland, John William | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Millar, James Duncan | Swift, Rigby |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Molloy, Michael | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Hackett, John | Molteno, Percy Alport | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Mooney, John J. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Morgan, George Hay | Tennant, Harold John |
| Hancock, John George | Morison, Hector | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Thomas, J. H. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Muldoon, John | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Down, North) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Munro, Robert | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hazleton, Richard | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Wardle, George J. |
| Helmsley, Viscount | Nolan, Joseph | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Norton, Captain Cecil William | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Nuttall, Harry | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Doherty, Philip | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Hills, John Waller | O'Dowd, John | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull. W.) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Malley, William | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Hodge, John | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Shee, James John | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Holt, Richard Durning | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Winfrey, Richard |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Parkes, Ebenezer | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Parry, Thomas H. | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | |
| Jessel, Captain H. M. | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. W. Jones and Mr. Webb. |
| John, Edward Thomas | Perkins, Walter F. |
NOES.
| ||
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Guinness, Hon.W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Baker, Sir Randall L. (Dorset, N.) | Hinds, John | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Hogge, James Myles | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Horner, Andrew Long | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Neilson, Francis | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Fell, Arthur | O'Grady, James | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Pringle, William M. R. | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Fletcher, John Samuel | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Martin. |
| Greene, Walter Raymond | Salter, Arthur Clavell | |
| Gretton, John | ||
I beg to move, in paragraph (d), after the word "has," to insert the word "had" ["little or no deterrent effect"].
I have a previous Amendment.
The hon. Member made a, speech on that Amendment just now, but I understood that the Division which has been taken covered that. The hon. Member spoke in support of the alternative he had on the Paper to the Amendment then before the House. The House came to the decision that the words of the Bill so far should stand part.
I made a speech, but the Home Secretary did not listen to it.
The object of this Amendment is to leave the question, whether the punishment has failed in operating as a deterrent, not as a matter of opinion, but as a matter of fact. It is not necessary for me to make any observations upon it, as I understand that the Home Secretary is inclined to favourably consider the Amendment.
I beg to second the Amendment. It makes the Clause much clearer and the definitions much more harmless.
I am quite prepared to accept the Amendment.
Question, "That the word 'had' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add as a new paragraph,
A separate paragraph with regard to mentally infirm persons, such as I am now proposing, was contained in the Bill of last year, and we have never yet been told why the Home Secretary has deemed it necessary to omit such a paragraph from the Bill this year. The Bill as it stands only applies to mentally defective persons who have been mentally defective from birth or from early age. A person cannot be dealt with under any of these para- graphs unless he was defective from birth or from an early age; therefore no person can be dealt with who becomes mentally deficient in later years. Everyone acquainted with local government knows perfectly well that a very large number of the aged persons in our workhouses and lunatic asylums, are only mentally defective through senile decay. Before the Royal Commission it was stated by the chairman of the Asylums Committee of the London County Council:—"(e) Mentally infirm persons, that is to say, persons who through mental infirmity arising from age or the decay of their faculties are incapable of managing themselves or their affairs."
An interesting Return was issued a short time ago by the Local Government Board showing the number of mentally defective persons in workhouses in England and Wales. It showed that out of 29,484 adults who were mentally defective, 10,000, or more than one-third, were persons of sixty years and upwards. In this Return the mentally defective in workhouses are classified according to the five classes contained in the Mental Deficiency Bill of last year, the fifth class consisting of mentally infirm persons who would have come under such a definition as I am now proposing. Under that heading 32 per cent, of all the mental deficients in our workhouses would have come. That definition has been omitted, and we have been given no reason whatever why the right hon. Gentleman has not included it in his Bill this year. Everyone will agree that persons, whose only crime is that they are mentally defective, ought not to be in workhouses or lunatic asylums. They ought to be placed in homes or institutions provided for mentally defectives under the Bill we are now discussing. Early last year the Home Secretary said:"Patients were sent to the asylums of the county council who were senile and not strictly lunatic... The old senile dements are sent to the county asylums practically because someone wants 10 get rid of them. … They represent very nearly one-third of those we receive. We have hundreds and hundreds now that we could dispose of if we had asylums similar to the imbecile asylums belonging to the Metropolitan Asylums Board. It is a serious matter affecting the relatives … to brand as a lunatic a man or woman whose faculties are simply decayed by the advance of years.
It is perfectly clear that to keep aged people suffering from senile decay in a lunatic asylum is a great waste of money. They do not require the very expensive medical treatment which lunatice receive in our modern lunatic asylums. They will be much better off and much economically treated in homes for mental defectives. Unless this definition is inserted, these unfortunate people cannot be dealt with."Mentally defectives ought nut in lie treated in the workhouses, as their case is one in which workhouse treatment is of no value. They ought to be treated in a suitable home which would, if not cure them, at any rate give them a prospect of leading a fairly tolerable life."
I beg to second the Amendment.
With much of the hon. Member's speech we agree. At the same time he will remember, as he served on the Committee, that in view of the financial provisions of this Bill it is really impossible to include all those we wish to include. The Bill is limited to congenital cases—the cases of those who from birth or early age have displayed these particular defects. The substance of the answer to the Amendment is that the money at our disposal at present is not sufficient to meet all the cases we would wish to meet. I say that quite frankly to the House. That being so, we have, as it were, to choose the most urgent cases. In our view, the cases included in the Bill are more urgent than the cases the hon. Member wishes to include. That is a frank and candid admission, and that really represents the real substance of the situation.
These people are already provided for in lunatic asylums, and there would be no additional cost.
That is just so. If the senile dements develop such a state of abnormality of mind that they are lunatics, they are already provided for under the present law, but we do not think they ought to come definitely as a new class in addition to (a), (b), (c), and (d) under this Clause. At any rate, I think the hon. Member will agree with me that once we substantiate that, we have to choose this is really the class that ought, as it were, first to be excepted from the provisions of this Bill. If it was a very bad case, of course, he would be certified as a lunatic. If he is not so certified, a man in this condition would less require special treatment than the other classes included in the Bill. To include this class would entail very heavy additional expenditure, and if you entailed heavy expenditure certain classes would be excluded from the Bill which in our opinion ought to be included, rather than the class to which the hon. Member refers. I agree with the substance of his remarks. When he remembers the financial limitations which have been put upon us, I hope, although we all agree there is merit in the Amendment, he will not press it.
Why was it included in the first Bill.
The hon. Member was on the Committee the second time, and the Bill was very much improved on the second occasion.
I am very pleased to think the Under-Secretary has decided not to accept this Amendment. I have supported the Bill, so far as I have given support to it, on the supposition that it is really to deal with those who may be offensive to society. Surely these poor old people who would be included in the Amendment could not possibly come under that category. Therefore it would be most offensive to include them in a Bill of this description.
9.0 P.M.
I was pleased to hear that the Government were not going to accept the Amendment, sorry though I am to have to oppose my hon. Friend, who is generally a supporter of individual liberty, though on this occasion he has fallen away. At the same time I must really protest against the reason given by the Government for their rejection of the Amendment. They certainly would not find any approval from the hon. Member (Mr. John Ward) any more than they would from me. What the Under-Secretary has said is that the Government would like to lock all these people up, but they have not got money enough to do it. Can one really imagine a less conclusive defence? They had it in the last Bill. The hon. Gentleman says this is an improvement on the last Bill, but though it is an improvement he says he should like to have this in which is not an improvement, if he had money enough to put it in. Is that logical or practical? If he is going to draw the line as to money is there not a very much simpler line? If he is frightened of locking up these poor people, whom I have no desire to lock up, would it not be much simpler to make a difference between compulsory and voluntary? We know that there is only £300,000 under the Bill. That will not be enough to deal with voluntary cases. Surely he might save all this difficulty and trouble by drawing the line at voluntary cases—people who are willing to go to asylums and those excellent institutions which at present deal with idiots and the feeble-minded! But to suggest that the limit of age is the one which is to be taken, simply because of money, is only worthy of some of his supporters who are anxious to lock up so many people under the Bill. I certainly rather agree with the hon. Member (Mr. John Ward) than with the Government. Still, if you accepted this Amendment, you would be on exceedingly dangerous ground and that is why we are opposing it. You would be locking up people at forty, fifty, or sixty, who had been sane until then. When they got a little bit feeble they would be locked up right and left on account of family disputes and people wanting to get hold of their money. That is where the Clause is a bad one which should be rejected, and that is the real danger. I am glad the Government have not money enough to do it, because it would be an absolutely wrong thing to do. I shall have to strain my conscience to the extent of voting with the Under-Secretary against my hon. Friend.
The hon. and learned Gentleman seems to be under the impression that I propose by this Amendment to lock up poor unfortunate old people who are at liberty at present. Nothing is further from my mind. All I propose is that old people who are now locked up in asylums and workhouses should be transferred to proper homes and institutions.
The old men can come out of the workhouse whenever they like.
There is no getting away from the fact that there are thousands of old people in the workhouses who cannot get away, and they cannot get away from the lunatic asylums. Every asylum authority in the country will testify that a very large number of old people are there who ought not to be there. This provision was in the Bill last year, when exactly the same amount of money was provided as is provided this year. For the hon. Gentleman to say he will not accept the Amendment this year because he has not enough money is absolutely absurd. If my hon. and learned Friend is against the Amendment I shall not proceed to a Division.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause to add the follow-; ing new paragraph,
The object of this definition is to bring the benefits of the Bill to certain classes of people who are a constant source of trouble to Social Workers and Poor Law guardians, persons who are feeble-minded, but do not come under the definitions we have already passed. They have no criminal or vicious-propensities which bring them under the operation of the criminal laws, but they are really incapable of properly looking; after their affairs, and particularly are incapable of protecting themselves against sexual indulgence. Many thousands of children are born into the world of parents of this kind, and for their sake as well as for the sake of the mothers these feeble-minded women who are subject to this particular kind of mental and moral defect should be brought within the purview of this Bill. If this Amendment is accepted I have a subsequent Amendment to treat this particular class of moral imbeciles differently from some others, by saying that they shall not be dealt with other than by being sent to an approved home or placed under guardianship. I am not an enemy of liberty, but I am very desirous that this particular class of imbecile should have the benefit of this Bill."(e) sexually feeble-minded persons, that is to say, female persons who do not belong to any of the above-mentioned classes of mentally defective persons, but who are feeble-minded and on account of their mental condition fail to exercise due self-control or due self-protection with respect to sexual immorality."
I beg to second the Amendment.
My hon. Friend has referred to a circumstance which was present to the minds of those who brought in this Bill. He seems to be under the impression that the class to whom he-referred are excluded from the provisions of the Bill. He will find if he will look at the Bill that the class of women could be brought under paragraph (c). So far as the term "feeble-minded" is concerned, they are already included in the Bill. What does the hon. Member want? He says there is a class who fail to exercise due self control. I really could not accept the Amendment. I think his proposal, if carried out, would be exceedingly harsh. The Amendment gives a very vague classification. Really the point is that the Bill is intended to make it possible for any honest man, any honest doctor, to say whether a certain person does or does not come within the provisions of the Bill. If a woman is a feeble-minded person, she comes within the provisions of the Bill, whether she has tendencies to sexual immorality or not, and the hon. Member wishes to add that she cannot exercise due self-control or due self-protection. I really think that is putting too severe a strain on the administrators of the Act. I hope very much for these reasons that no further addition of this kind will be made to the Bill.
I am afraid I do not agree with the Under-Secretary for the Home Department in his reason for objecting to the Amendment, although I am opposed to it. He says that all this sort of people will be dealt with under the definition we have already passed. That may or may not be so.
So far as the feeble-minded are concerned, they already come within the Bill.
That is my point. I do not know who is really feeble-minded or who is not. I do not know who is to decide that question. Very likely two doctors would agree that some person is feeble-minded, although others held a contrary view. While I do not agree that the reasons advanced by the Under-Secretary are good reasons, I am going to support him if the Amendment goes to a Division. I do not know whether the hon. Member who moved the Amendment is an advocate of female suffrage or not.
Yes.
I am surprised that lie proposed the Amendment. One of the reasons why I am going to vote against him is that I think it would not be fair to women that this particular Amendment should be put in the Bill. The Amendment says that persons shall be deemed to be defectives who are
Why not include men? Why should women only be brought under this Section? I am serious upon this point, because I have always said there was no necessity whatever for female suffrage. I have always said that we are perfectly capable of looking after the interests of women, but if we are to have such legislation as this, one law for men and another law for women who are, incapable of due self-control or self-protection with respect to sexual immorality, my objection to female suffrage would vanish. Everyone knows perfectly well that if this Amendment is correct, it applies as much to men as to women, and I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman opposite should have brought it forward, to deal only with the class he describes as female persons. Of course, this really shows what absurdities we are attempting to legislate upon. We are really trying to make out that wherever there is a particular thing we disapprove of, the person, male or female, who does that particular thing is mentally defective, and should, therefore, be locked up on the ipse dixit of two doctors, and confined for five years in a place of detention. I am sorry to differ from the hon. Gentleman, but I am sure he will accept my criticisms in the spirit in which they are offered. I trust the House of Commons will not accept this Amendment, and that even at this late hour the Government may possibly be induced to see that this Bill cannot possibly be carried out without inflicting great hardship and injustice upon a large portion of the community."sexually feeble-minded persons, that is to say, female persons who do not belong to any of the above-mentioned classes of mentally defective persons, but who are feeble-minded and on account of their mental condition fail to exercise due self-control or due self-protection with respect, to sexual immorality."
The reason why I object to this Amendment is that it would be impossible for anyone to decide when a person came within its terms, unless, perhaps, the President of the Divorce Court, or the King's Proctor. I feel certain that while there is a certain degraded class on the streets who want protection, these women are not exclusively the class who would come within the terms of the Amendment. I venture to say that if these-words were put in, although the paragraph would be applied to poor people, you could not apply it to rich people, however immoral they might be. It would be utterly impossible to do that.
I do not see why it should not apply to everybody.
It would be utterly impossible to apply any portion of this Bill from beginning to end to wealthy people.
That is why I am against the Bill.
It is largely for people in poor circumstances that you are passing it. I am morally certain that those who have framed this Amendment mean it to apply only to one rank of society—the poorer people. They have no intention whatever of applying such a strict code as this to those in the higher grades of society. It is more aimed at a class than at an offence, and I object to it entirely. By no stretch of imagination could it apply to the people who happen to move in good society, whose records we hear of from time to time in the Divorce Courts, but to their less fortunate fellow citizens in the poorer ranks of society it may apply very effectively and very harshly. It establishes one code of morals for one section and another code for another section of the community, and it is because of this difference in its application according to wealth and social status that I object to this Amendment from beginning to end.
I am exceedingly glad that a Member from the Labour Benches has at last spoken against the ill which threatens to lock up poor people.
I am not referring to the hon. and learned Member in particular, but I have noticed that for the last hour nearly every speaker on the Amendments has referred, more or less, to the Bill as a whole. It is very important at this stage that we should deal with the Amendments before the House, and not with the Bill as a whole.
I am very glad that a. Member from the Labour Benches has spoken against the Clause which is to lock up poor people. I am opposing this Amendment because it discloses no necessity to lock up this particular class of persons. I sympathise greatly with the Mover of the Amendment. It seems to be the logical outcome of certain portions of the Bill. The Under-Secretary, in speaking against this Amendment, referred to his remarks on the last Amendment and said that the same reasons applied to this. As far as I understand his remarks on the last Amendment were that there was not sufficient money available to deal with the different things that they would wish to deal with, so that if he had money at his disposal he would, I understand, accept this Amendment.
That is not the case. There are other reasons also, but even if this were an Amendment which we could accept on other grounds it would be impossible on account of the financial restriction.
Why the hon. Member who moved this should have restricted it to females I do not know. There is nothing in his speech that would have prevented it applying to men as well as to women. If the Amendment were to be moved in its present form it should be applied to both men and women, and then it would have the merit at all events of being logical and possibly in accordance with the rest of the Bill. I know no other part of the Bill which makes a different law for women and for men. Though I oppose the Amendment I am glad the hon. Member has moved it, because it throws a strong light on the lengths to which you may be tempted to go if you continue the class of legislation which we have begun. It is because it will make a further step in that direction that I am prepared to vote against the Amendment. What is proposed is practically imprisonment for life without a proper trial. It is a danger to the personal liberty of people, however much we may not sympathise with them, and it is a dangerous precedent to lock up people, whether male or female, in the manner proposed.
May I be allowed to withdraw? [HON MEMBERS:"NO."]
I am very glad that this Amendment has been moved, because it enables the Government to show that they can resist pressure in this direction, and also because it has induced the Undersecretary to the Home Department to explain to the House that the women who are meant to be dealt with under this Amendment will be dealt with under Section (c).
So far as they are feeble-minded.
That is what I meant to say. This only deals with feebleminded persons. Therefore, we are told by the Under-Secretary that these people should come under Section (c). It is very desirable that the House should understand the people who do come under paragraph (c). In the second place, I am glad that it has been moved, because it makes quite clear what is at the back of the minds of the promoters of this Bill. Just as they want to make people sober and thrifty by Act of Parliament so they want to make them moral by Act of Parliament. Two years ago an Amendment such as this would have been carried. It would have been thought such an admirable thing to make people moral by Act of Parliament. Now an Amendment on these lines would not have met with a seconder if it had not been felt desirable that the subject should be debated. The only thing I regret is that the Amendment should have been moved by the hon. Member for Hagger-ston, who has done magnificent service for freedom in other spheres, and has also worked effectively for women suffrage, and I think it is sad that an Amendment such as this should have been put into his hands—of course he loyally moved it—and that he should be held responsible for it. Last year in the Committee stage a similar Amendment was moved, I think by the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire, and was rejected without a Division, as this Amendment will also be rejected without a Division. I think a very healthy spirit is growing up of opposition to ail such interference with the moral conduct of the people of the country. The more you look after them by the State in this way the less chance they have of standing on their own legs, and the more necessary further grandmotherly interference is found to be. I protest against this Amendment. I wish that it could be divided on. At any rate, an Amendment similar to this will not pass into law during the lifetime of this Parliament.
Amendment put, and negatived.
Clause 2—(Circumstances Rendering Defectives Subject To Be Dealt With)
2.—(1) A person who is a defective may be dealt with under this Act by being sent to or placed in an institution for defectives or placed under guardianship—
(2) Notice shall, subject to regulations, made by the Board of Education, to be laid before Parliament as hereinafter provided, be given by the local education authority to the local authority under this Act in the case of all defective children over the age of seven—
I propose to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "defectives" ["an institution for defectives"], to insert the words "or a certified house as provided in Section forty-six." This-Clause is probably the most important in the whole Bill. As it stands at present, there are two classes of institutions to which to send defectives, and there is a third class which, under Clause 48, instead of being sent to an institution, may be sent to a certified house. My point is, if you send a defective to a certified house, it must be clear that all the safeguards which are provided, and all the provisions under Clause 2, apply as well to the certified houses. It is only a drafting matter, and it seems to me it should be done.
It is rather unusual to insert in an earlier Clause a reference to a later Clause, and if I put it to insert the words "or a certified house" it will be better.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "defectives," to insert the words "or a certified house."
I beg to second the Amendment.
I think this is the best opportunity for making clear exactly what institution these people will be sent to. There are institutions which may be certified by the county or borough councils, and institutions which may be carried on by the guardians, and then those run by the Secretary of State, and, besides that, there are certified houses to which my hon. Friend has referred.It would be quite out of place to discuss that point now. This is moved as a drafting Amendment, and the other point does not arise until later in the Bill.
I think it would certainly be desirable that the various institutions to which defectives can be sent should be stated in this Clause. Certified houses will be privately managed, and you will have a number of people under the procedure provided sent to those houses. I expect the word "institutions" here is meant to cover them, and it certainly would be better to have it stated.
Clause 2 provides that a person who is a defective may be dealt with by being sent to "an institution for defectives," and Clause 48 (l) states that—
Do not the hon. Members think that once is quite sufficient to have the thing stated? The Amendment is quite unnecessary, and the only justification for it is if you want to say twice what is in the Bill once."Any defective who may be ordered to be sent to, or may be placed in an institution under this Act may be ordered to be sent to or to be placed in a certified house."
Amendment put, and negatived.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1) (a), to leave out the words "or is under the age of twenty-one." This part of the Clause has really to be read in conjunction with Clause 3. Under Clauses 2 and 3 a person can be dealt with at the instance of the parent or guardian without any judicial order whatever, if that person is an idiot, or imbecile of any age, or if he is mentally defective. Under paragraph (b) of Clause 2 (1) there is no necessity to show that the person is found neglected, abandoned, or without visible means of support, and the person can be dealt with by the parent or guardian without the order of a judicial authority under Clause 4. It is quite clear that this procedure does not contain the same safeguards for the protection or liberty of the subject as are contained in Clause 5. Under this Bill it is proposed to repeal the Idiocy Act. So far as I know, under that Act any person can be dealt with at the instance of a parent or guardian if he is an idiot or an imbecile. This proposal goes further than that, as it deals with people who are not idiots or imbeciles, but simply defectives. I think there is an unwarranted and unnecessary infringement of the liberty of the subject. I hope in this case I shall have the support of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood). If this Clause is passed a parent will be able to take his child from a special school, without any order from a judicial authority, merely by getting two medical men to sign a certificate. All that these medical men are asked to certify is that the child comes under one of the four definitions laid down in the Bill. The parent can then remove his child from a special school and place it in an institution under the Board of Control. I want to know whether that is the intention of the Home Secretary. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to adopt this Amendment and thus place the proposals under this Bill on the same basis as the proposals under the Idiots Act.
I desire to second the Amendment. It seems to me very important that this question should be seriously considered. If the Clause stands as at present any parents or guardians will be able to send their children or those over whom they have guardianship to these institutions under much simpler arrangements than those under which they can be sent away by the officer of the local authority. It seems to me rather serious if you are going to make it easy for certain evilly disposed guardians or parents to get rid of their children by locking them up in these feeble-minded institutions. There have been cases of evilly-disposed parents or guardians getting their children consigned to lunatic asylums. The difficulties in the way of such parents or guardians are considerable. The doctors who sign the certificates have to be satisfied that there are certain definite symptoms of insanity. The cases under subheads (c) and (d)—moral imbeciles and feeble-minded persons—are border-line cases, in which it is less the business of the medical man to decide whether the persons ought to be sent to these institutions, than that of the educators of children or those who have practical experience of children. I am against giving greater powers to evilly-disposed parents to put their offspring into these homes. Very often boys and girls during years of adolescence form attachments with members of the opposite sex which are considered undesirable by their parents. It is a little risky to give those parents such simple opportunities as they have under this Bill of getting their children put away. You have to deal with bad parents as well as with mentally defective children. You have to deal with a system whereby the lunacy laws are made much wider than at present.
Under paragraph (b) rather elaborate processes have to be gone through before persons under the age of twenty-one can be consigned to feeble-minded institutions. But under Sub-clause (a) the process is a great deal simpler. I view with some alarm this tendency to give almost absolute power to parents over children of eighteen, nineteen, or twenty years of age. The Government ought to consider very carefully whether these words might not be omitted without doing much damage to the Bill. As far as I remember, the Bill of last year did not contain this sentence, and so far was a better Bill than the present measure from the point of view of the liberty of the subject. This Bill contemplates dealing with children during the school years from seven to sixteen, and it seems to me it would be better to make the upper limit under which the parents have control sixteen instead of twenty-one years of age. After the child has left school and has passed through the sifting-out processes provided by the education authorities with their special schools and so on, it is a little dangerous to give this power to the parents. If there is any feeble-mindedness about a child it will be found out long before he reaches twenty-one. It is a primâ facie case in favour of the child if he has passed the age of sixteen without being sifted out and sent to a special school. I hope, therefore, the Government will consider whether they cannot accept some such Amendment as this in order to give an additional safeguard to children who may displease their parents or get into difficulty with their guardian over money matters.I hope the hon. Member for Stowmarket (Mr. Goldsmith) will not attack me if I reply to his present Amendment by pointing out other Amendments which I propose to make. I have to ask for immunity from attack by him, because on a previous occasion he criticised my action in venturing to accept an Amendment. I do not propose to recommend the House to accept his present Amendment, but I propose to accept an Amendment standing in the name of the hen. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme to insert the words "at the instance of his parents if he," so that as regards persons under the age of twenty-one the power will be limited to parents and will not be given to guardians. That deals with half the case. With regard to parents, I propose in Clause 3, which deals with procedure relating to parents, to move to insert words requiring the certificate, "where the defective is not an idiot or imbecile," to be "countersigned by a judicial authority for the purposes of this Act." This point was discussed at considerable length in Committee, when I promised to introduce words to ensure that a judicial authority should have cognisance of the certificate, so that we might be satisfied that it was not merely a medical certificate, but that a judicial authority would know the circumstances of the case and be able to refuse to sign the certificate if all the circumstances were not fully satisfactory. I hope that with this explanation the hon. Member will be satisfied and not press his Amendment. The reason for not meeting the whole of his case is that I am informed, and I believe it to be the fact, that in many cases we should give, great offence if we insisted on parents going before a judicial authority. I quite agree that we have to safeguard the liberty of the child. I think we have done it. But, of course, I must remind the hon. Member that after the petition there is the whole procedure in Clauses 11 and 12 which apply to this case also. Clauses 11 and 12 also deal with the release of the Orders. I think, having regard to all the circumstances of the ease, we have fairly met the views expressed.
I may point out that it is necessary that the Amendment should be withdrawn in order to put the one that follows, the one standing in the name of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme.
I would like a word or two upon this Amendment, before it is withdrawn. It may be necessary to withdraw it, but I should like to say a word or what the Home Secretary has just said. The Home Secretary says that it might annoy the parent if he is proceeded against by judicial authority. I cannot help that. The parent ought not to have the right to do what he likes with any of his children. He ought not to be able to lock them up, and then because it annoys him to have to appear before the judicial authority, not to have to appear. Why not? Here, again, we come back to the fatal and vicious faults of the Bill, that new proposals and new powers are to be given to certain people, and forsooth, they are not to be subjected to judicial authority for fear that we annoy—
I did not say that.
I do not wish to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman, but I understood him to say that one of the reasons that he objected to this Amendment was that it might give offence to the parents that have to appear before the judicial authority. If he did not say that I have nothing further to say. But my belief is that the right hon. Gentleman did—
I said what the hon. Baronet now says.
Yes. Surely then under these circumstances we are here to see that right prevails. We are not here to encourage parents who want to get rid of their children. I do not hold that parents are exceptionally bad people who cannot be trusted with this power. But unless the Amendment of my hon. Friend is accepted any parent who wants to get rid of his child of eighteen or nineteen or twenty can do so, and if he is not to go before judicial authorities for fear of the annoyance of it, well, a more extraordinary doctrine to have been put forward by the right hon. Gentleman representing the Liberal party I have not heard. We have always supposed that the Liberal party stood for the liberty of the subject. I could not have believed that I ever should have risen in this House to controvert a doctrine of that sort. It has not been put forward by the reactionary people who are opposed to the liberty of the subject. If it had been then, possibly there might have been something in it. That it should be put forward and advanced by one of the greatest living instances of the new Radical party—words fail me to describe my feelings at the present moment! We have already passed certain Acts of Parliament against cruelty to children, because we believe that some parents are not fit to be entrusted with the destinies of their children. In the case put forward, the right hon. Gentleman gives these very people the power to lock up their children—
Oh, no, no, the hon. Member must not misrepresent me!
That is as I understand it.
It is not so.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why, then, is he going to meet my hon. Friend half way? How some of this ever got into the Bill I cannot conceive. How it ever passed Committee upstairs that a guardian should have this power, again I cannot conceive. If the right hon. Gentleman is going to alter it later on as he says to meet my hon. Friend upon the question of the guardian, and then later on going to meet him still further in the matter of the parents, may I ask him why he should not meet him now in a clear, definite manner and accept the Amendment? I should like to have some reason for this: otherwise I hope my hon. Friend will go to a Division. At any rate, those of us who still have some lingering regard for freedom ought to support my hon. Friend.
I do not think that the fears of the right hon. Baronet are quite justified. I think he has overlooked the fact that the child can only be sent away upon the certificate of two doctors, of whom one must have been approved by the local authority, and that when the child is so sent the Board of Control must at once be notified. Then there are provisions in Clause 11 for the examination at the end of the year, and subsequently—
May I inform my hon. Friend that I place no reliance whatever upon the certificate of the two doctors?
The hon. Baronet is so impressed with the fact that everybody can be got at that it will be hard to convince him. Still, so far the terms of protection go, I think they are quite adequate. I can see reasons for distinguishing between the case of the parents and the guardians. After all, a great many guardians are in loco parentis. Surely the thing that you want to do in this Bill is to see that a certain power is not abused. So long as you make sure of that I would be quite satisfied to give the guardians the same powers. My first impression as I heard my hon. Friend speak was that the taking out of these words would enlarge the scope of the Act. I am not sure that it will not, because the first few words in Section 2 will then apply to defectives. I hope for that reason the Amendment will not be pressed. Still I do not quite understand why no distinction is to be made between the powers given to the parents and the powers given to the guardians.
My hon. Friend's incurable optimism makes him a most dangerous man to follow, but why this thing has been brought up I cannot imagine. The Home Secretary, in a very able speech on the Amendment, made it clear that he thought the point should be met. As it is now, at the instance of a parent or guardian, where the child is under the age of twenty-one you can lock him up upon the certificate of two medical men countersigned by a certificate from the judicial authority. Let me put to the right hon. Gentleman, and to my hon. Friend who has just sat down a case which arises in every-day life, a case where the husband and wife are separated by a judicial separation. The wife has got the custody of the children. There is a feeble-minded child whom the mother loves just as much as any of the stronger-witted children. She is willing to look after it, and has the money to look after it, but the husband under this Bill as it stands being at enmity with his wife, to annoy or to distress her, has only got to go and insist, because the child is feeble-minded, on getting the certificate of two doctors, because the safeguard of the right, hon. Gentleman is only illusory. What is the judicial authority? The magistrate many of us are magistrates, and the magistrates, when the certificate is brought to him can only countersign it. You cannot set up your opinion against the opinions of two doctors. You have no opportunity of seeing or cross-examin- ing them. You have simply the certificate signed by two doctors, and if they are respectable men, you can only countersign their certificate. The man may have quite rightly stated that the child is feeble minded, and once that is done, the judicial authority countersigns the certificate, and although the mother had been looking after it perfectly well, the father has power, under this extraordinary Act, to take away that child and shut it up in an asylum, in which it will have to associate with people that have been removed from the lunatic asylums and from criminal lunatic asylums, and also with people who are morally imbecile, and have such strong vicious propensities that punishment has not effect on them. Therefore, the case of the husband who wishes to spite a wife—and I am taking this concrete case, because it is simpler and easier to follow a concrete case—has got full powers to take the feeble-minded child away and shut it up in an asylum of the kind I have indicated. It is true that the husband, instead of sending the child to that asylum about which I shall have a word to say when we come to this extraordinary method of management, could send it to a certified home, where it would not have to associate with people of the kind I mention, but where it would be locked up for a considerable period, and would, of course, cause endless heart searching and pain to the mother from whom it is taken away, and over whom the husband has such powers and enormous leverage of pressure, under an Act of this kind. If I differ from my hon. Friend, it is because possibly my professional practice has given me experience in cases of this kind, and when we are dealing with the liberties of the public, we are bound to see that the proper precautions are taken even if we are to sit up late, before giving powers of this kind to lock up people.
10.0. P.M.
I think the concession made by the Home Secretary though not quite adequate to meet all the circumstances, deserves to have been received somewhat better. It is, of course, valuable to find the Home Seecretary offering some safeguard in circumstances such as that in this Clause. I think we are entitled to point out that this is the second safeguard that has been introduced into the Clause as a result of the action of the critics of the Bill. When the Bill was introduced, a single medical certificate was sufficient to lock up any young person up to the age of twenty-one at the instance of the parent or guardian. In the course of the discussion a concession was made, making it necessary to have two doctors. Now the Home Secretary has, I think, very wisely gone further. He has made it necessary that this certificate should be countersigned by a judicial authority. I regret that the ordinary procedure of a judicial order is not required in these cases as in other cases, but the right hon. Gentleman has brought about the intervention of the judicial authority, and I myself feel satisfied with the concession he has made.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move in paragraph (a), after the word "or" ["or is under the age of twenty-one; or"], to insert the words "at the instance of his parent, if he."
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move in paragraph (i), to leave out the words "or without visible means of support."
This is a very important Amendment, and I hope the Government will accept it. It is an Amendment put in by the hon. Member for Stirlingshire during the Committee stage of the Bill. Paragraph (i) of Sub-section (b), as it originally stood in the Government Bill, stated that people who are found neglected, abandoned, or cruelly treated, could be dealt with as feebleminded persons, and sent to these institutions, and then Eugenists came along and added, "Those without visible means of support," which has no real connection with the other three conditions provided. As the House knows, these are the very vaguest form of words. After all, it seems right that there should be power to send children to these institutions if they are really neglected, abandoned, or cruelly treated. I agree that children who come under these categories, or that are neglected in any other way, should be sent to institutions. Their parents have obviously failed to look after them, but to add the further words "having no visible means of support" seems to me to be cruelly unjust to many of those parents. How on earth are the feebleminded children to have half-crowns in their pockets? How are they to show visible means of support? You can test whether persons are abandoned, neglected, or cruelly treated. How can you test whether they are without visible means of support? In the case of tramps, that is sufficient if they have a half-crown in their pockets; but how are you going to apply that condition to those feeble-minded children? It seems to me to be perfectly monstrous. I dislike the whole Bill, but this addition makes it far worse. If the Government will take these words out, I do not propose to talk any longer on this Amendment, but certainly if the words are to remain in, the Bill will be far more dangerous than it was when it came before us on Second Reading. We were told on Second Reading there were two conditions to be satisfied before people could be locked up, and one was that the defectives should come under the definition in Clause 1; and the second was that they should come into contact with, the law. Can anybody suppose that being without visible means of support can be ultimately considered as coming into contact with the law. The cranks say that everyone of those children is without visible means of support, and it means if these words are left in there will be other circumstances to be considered, besides proving that the child is mentally defective and gets into trouble with the law. You simply have to prove that it is mentally defective alone, and then one of your officers has only got to find the child outside its parents' home without half-a-crown in its pocket and all is up with the child. I urge everybody who believes in the liberty of the subject and who believes that it is not the function of the State to lock up people simply because they are feeble-minded to vote for cutting out these words so that the Clause will read as it was when it first went upstairs, where these words were accepted in a light-hearted manner to burke discussion.I beg leave to second this Amendment.
The hon. Member talks about this Clause interfering with the liberty of the subject, but the provision about a person being found "neglected, abandoned, or cruelly treated" applies to something which is done by somebody else and not the child. Supposing the child has lost its parents and it is deaf, it has not been either "neglected, abandoned, or cruelly treated." If the hon. Member looks at this provision he will find that his proposal is entirely un- necessary, because the case he has put before us comes within the third rule of this Bill. These words were introduced in Committee and accepted and there was no Division upon them, and, therefore, I cannot accept the hon. Member's Amendment.
These words are taken from the Children's Act.
:I do not think it is a good argument to advance that because certain words appear in the Children's Act they should be brought into this Act. As far as I know the Children's Act it has been a dead letter, and it was an absurd Act which has resulted in nothing. The arguments which were advanced by the Under-Secretary dealt entirely with the case of children, and I agree with my Noble Friend that this does not apply to children at all. If the Under-Secretary will look at the Clause he will see that it begins:—
"A person who is a defective may be dealt with under this Act by being sent to or placed in an institution for defectives or placed under guardianship—(a) at the instance of his parent or guardian if he is an idiot or imbecile, or is under the age of twenty-one." That does not apply to a child. The next provision is as follows:— (b) If in addition to being a defective he is a person— (i) who is found neglected abandoned, or without visible means of support, or cruelly treated." Surely that refers to one of the class which I have just read—that is, a person who is a defective. There is nothing about a child in that provision. I feel quite certain that if this Section was passed in this way any person who may be a defective, and under the age of 21, who is certainly not a child, may be locked up because he is without visible means of support. That may be right or wrong, but if we are going to pass this proviso let us do so with a full understanding of what we are doing and do not let the House be led away by the argument that we are only dealing with children. I think we ought to have the assistance of a Law Officer of the Crown when we are dealing with legal questions of this kind. There being no Law Officer present, I express my opinion upon what anybody with common sense would understand this Clause to mean, and that is that any person who is without visible means of support may be locked up for an indefinite period. If that is so, and I cannot conceive that there can be any doubt about it, what is the meaning of these words, "without visible means of support"? The hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. John Ward) made a speech protesting against poor people being dealt with in a manner different from rich people, and I hope that the Labour Members will bear that in mind when they are considering this particular Bill. What does this mean? It means that a person who is more or less defective, but who is capable of earning a livelihood may be taken and locked up, because he happens to be out of work for the moment, and has no visible means of subsistence with him. He has no money in his pocket, and he cannot say he has an engagement to do a certain amount of work. Why should we lock that person up? I cannot see any reason why we should. Under these circumstances, hope that the hon. Gentleman will divide upon his Amendment, unless, of course, the Home Secretary can give any better reason in support of the words being retained in the Bill than that which was given by the Under-Secretary.
As I was responsible for moving the Amendment in Committee upstairs, I should like to say that I should be extremely pleased if the Home Secretary could give us a distinct reply now. Before action can be taken with regard to a person under this Section, he must be found to be defective within the definition of Clause 1, and he has either to be an idiot, an imbecile, a feeble-minded person, or a moral imbecile. Really I do not know whether the hon. Baronet is of opinion that an idiot, an imbecile, a feeble-minded person, or a moral imbecile, who is without visible means of subsistence is not a proper person to be dealt with under this Act. It seems to me that if you take into account the definition of a feeble-minded person in Clause 1 and realise that the defective person must at the same time be in the world without any visible means of support—anybody who really cares for these people at all must see that they are proper people to be taken.
Does the hon. Gentleman mean that people who are poor should be locked up and that people who are rich should not be?
The Under-Secretary defended it simply on the ground that it applied to children, but I think that he will agree with me that the words, as they stand, will apply to adults as well.
Certainly. I said "Here is an illustration." Of course, it will apply not only to children, but to persons of all ages.
Therefore, any person above the age of twenty-one can be taken under this Act provided that he is without visible means of subsistence. I want to meet the hon. Gentleman with regard to the children. Of course, if the child is neglected, abandoned, or cruelly treated, you are quite right in taking him and locking him up in an asylum; but under the Clause as drafted you have the right to take a child away from his parents simply because they are poor and have no visible means of subsistence. I cannot believe that is what the Government mean. If the child is neither neglected, abandoned, nor ill-treated, yet you have the right to take him away because his parents are without visible means of support. There would be power to take him before the magistrate, and take him compulsorily from his parents. Even on the Under-Secretary's statement it is an injustice to the children. It is upon adults the real mistake occurs, and it is a great deal too strong a Clause to put in, that you should have power to lock up a defective person simply because he is without visible means of support. If he has got sufficient means you cannot touch him, and if he has not you can. The Amendment proposes to leave out the words, "without visible means of support."
I congratulate the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire upon his candid and straightforward statement to the House. He stated exactly the object and purpose of the words. He said that anyone who is mentally defective, as defined in Clause 1, ought to be put away.
If without visible means of support.
Yes, if without visible means of support. We have been told by the Home Secretary up to now, that it was not only persons mentally defective that were to be put away, but that they had, besides, to come in contact with the law and to get into the Courts for a crime. Does the right hon. Gentleman pretend that a child without visible means of support is committing a crime. As a Radical I have always protested against sending a tramp to prison; but in that case the term is only a fortnight, whereas here it is for life. People so poor as to be without visible means of support are to be deprived of their privileges as citizens, and treated as though they were persons who had committed a crime sufficiently heavy to warrant their being taken away. Either this Bill deals with mentally defective persons who have committed no crime to bring them under the law, or those words must go out of the Clause. On Clause 1 we were told by every speaker on the Government Bench that the definitions must be wide, and that we should not make a hard and fast line; and that persons who come within the definitions and within the meshes of the law, come under Clause 2, and that, therefore, we need not bother to make the definitions more tight in Clause 1. Now we are told, forsooth, that it does not matter whether or not they come into contact with the law, and under Clause 2 those who come within Clause 1 are, in the interests of society, to be put away. You cannot have it both ways. Either those definitions must be watertight, and everyone locked up who conies within, this Clause, or else you leave them vague. You must take the greatest care that people come in contact with the law before they are brought within the meshes of this Act. I hope there will be sufficient independence among Members of this House to see the injustice of leaving these words in. It is making the Bill from a bad Bill into a monstrous Bill, and I hope the words will therefore be taken out.
I rise with reluctance to intervene, as I am very anxious to see the Bill go through. But are we not a long way from the real essence of the Bill? The object is to protect people who are suffering, and suffering badly. A common case known to everyone is that of a vagrant who is a vagrant because he is feeble-minded. He is within the meshes of the law. If he is without visible means of subsistence he can be arrested. Without this provision many vagrants who are mere imbeciles or feeble-minded cannot be properly cared for. The object of this Bill is to care for them, to treat them as patients, and this small Amendment makes that impossible. I am a lawyer, and therefore speak apologetically and with all modesty on behalf of my own profession. It is not a necessary postulate that every Court of Law will interpret such a phrase in the idiotic way which has been suggested in the course of this discussion. There is no Court that would say that because I was walking along the street, having left my small change behind, that I am therefore, without visible means of subsistence. Nor would an ordinary Court say that a child who was away from home and had no purse was, therefore, without visible means of subsistence. The person aimed at is really a person who has nothing to live upon, who is feeble-minded, and who ought to be taken care of.
The suggestions which have been made are a total travesty of the whole Bill, and have proceeded upon a total misconception of what is going to happen. These people are to be placed in homes if certain things happen
Division No. 211.]
| AYES.
| [10.31 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Arnold, Sydney | Barnston, Harry |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Baird, John Lawrence | Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) |
| Adamson, William | Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Barton, William |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Beale, Sir William Phipson |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Beauchamp, Sir Edward |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Beck, Arthur Cecil |
—if on the evidence the judicial authority thinks it desirable to do so in the interest of the person himself, but when they are in the homes the Board has to release them unless it is satisfied that their detention is in their own interest. It all depends on how far the Board will trust the authorities to act in the interests of the defective person. There is no foundation for the idea that people are to be shut up simply because they are defectives or without visible means of subsistence.
I should have thought the two last Members had said the final word on this point. The hon. Member for Cambridge University seems to think that because a person is found without half-a-crown in his pocket he will be liable to be arrested for being without visible means of subsistence. No Court would be so foolish as to come to a conclusion of that sort.
This is really one of the very bad blots on the Bill, and I hope that those in charge will press the Amendment to a Division so that we may show how strong is the feeling in support of it. The admissions made to-night are in entire contradiction of what the Home Secretary preached in Committee last year. He again and again asserted that the object of this scheme was not to deal with feeble-minded people, but with people who came in contact with the law. Coming in contact with the law is now reduced to being without visible means of subsistence. I say to those who are friends of this Bill—I do not regard myself as a friend of the Bill; I regard myself as a friend of the feeble-minded—that nothing more calculated to make this Bill unpopular and the authorities working it unpopular and disliked by the working-classes could be done than to put in such a hideous phrase as this. I hope those who have studied this question will record their votes in the Division.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 246; Noes, 66.
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Malley, William |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Helmsley, Viscount | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Bird, Alfred | Hemmerde, Edward George | O'Shee, James John |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Boland, John Pius | Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Henry, Sir Charles | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Higham, John Sharp | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Hills, John Waller | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hinds, John | Pointer, Joseph |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Butcher, John George | Hodge, John | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Holt, Richard Durning | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Reddy, Michael |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Horner, Andrew Long | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Illingworth, Percy H. | Rendall, Atheistan |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Clough, William | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Cowan, W. H. | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Crumley, Patrick | Joyce, Michael | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Cullinan, John | Keating, Matthew | Rowlands, James |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Kelly, Edward | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Kerry, Earl of | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kilbride, Denis | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Dawes, J. A. | King, Joseph | Scott, A, MacCallum (Glas.. Bridgeton) |
| Delany, William | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S.Molton) | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lardner, James C. R. | Sheehy, David |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Levy, Sir Maurice | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim) |
| Dillon, John | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lewisham, Viscount | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Doris, William | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Duffy, William J. | Lundon, Thomas | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lynch, A. A. | Swift, Rigby |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Lyttelton, Hon J. C. (Droitwich) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | McGhee, Richard | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Maclean, Donald | Tennant, Harold John |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | MacNeill, J, G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Thomas, James Henry |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Macpherson, James Ian | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Fell, Arthur | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Ffrench, Peter | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Field, William | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Wardle, George J. |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Weston, Colonel J. W. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Meagher, Michael | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Glanville, H. J. | Middlebrook, William | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Goldstone, Frank | Millar, James Duncan | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Molloy, Michael | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Greig, Colonel J. W. | Molteno, Percy Alport | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Morgan, George Hay | Wiles, Thomas |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Morison, Hector | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Gulland, John William | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Muldoon, John | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Munro, Robert | Wilson. Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Hackett, John | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Wood, Rt Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Hancock, John George | Nolan, Joseph | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Nuttall, Harry | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Younger, Sir George |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | |
| Haydon, John Patrick | O'Doherty, Philip | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. W. Jones and Mr. Webb |
| Hazleton, Richard | O'Dowd, John |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Barnes, George N. | Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Boyton, James |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Booth, Frederick Handel | Brace, William |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Bowerman, Charles W. | Bull, Sir William James |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Cassel, Felix | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Hogge, James Myles | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Clynes, John R. | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | John, Edward Thomas | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Martin, Joseph | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Mount, William Arthur | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Neilson, Francis | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Parkes, Ebenezer | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Gordon, Hon, John Edward (Brighton) | Peto, Basil Edward | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Greene, Walter Raymond | Pollock, Ernest Murray | |
| Gretton. John | Pringle, William M. R. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Sir F. Banbury. |
| Guinness, Hon.W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Radford, G. H. |
I beg to move, in paragraph (b) (ii), to leave out the words "or liable to be ordered."
I will agree to insert the word "found" before the word "liable" if the hon. Member will move the Amendment in that form.
In that case my point would be met. I move, to insert the word "found" after the word "or" ["or liable to be ordered"].
Amendment agreed to.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, that the following "words of Clause 2—
"(iii.) who is undergoing imprisonment (except imprisonment under civil process), or penal servitude, or is undergoing detention in a place of detention by order of a Court, or in a reformatory or industrial school, or in an inebriate reformatory or who is detained in an institution for lunatics or a criminal lunatic asylum; or
(iv.) who is an habitual drunkard within the meaning of the Inebriates Acts, 1879 to 1900; or
(v.) in whose case such notice has been given by the local education authority as is hereinafter in this Section mentioned; or
(vi.) who is in receipt of poor relief at the time of giving birth to an illegitimate child or when pregnant of such child.
(2) Notice shall, subject to regulations made by the Board of Education, to be laid before Parliament as hereinafter provided, be given by the local education authority to the local authority under this
Act in the case of all defective children over the age of seven—
and also the following words of Clause 3:— ( Power to Deal with Defectives at Instance of Parent or Guardians).
"(1) The parent or guardian of a defective who is an idiot or imbecile, or is under the age of twenty-one, may place him in an institution or under guardianship: Provided that he shall not be so placed in an institution or under guardianship, except upon certificates in writing."
stand part of the Bill.
Question put, "that the Question 'that the words of the Bill to the word "writing" stand part of the Bill' be now put."
I wish to point out that under the Closure Motion I have been ruled out on an Amendment to Clause 2, proposing to insert words which were contained in the Bill last year.
If the House accepts this Motion, and the Motion consequent upon it, we shall begin with Clause 3 after the words "except upon certificates in."
May I point out that there is no Motion, dealing with Clause 3.
Division No. 212.]
| AYES.
| [10.44 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Adamson, William | Gulland, John William | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Hackett, John | O'Dowd, John |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Hancock, John George | O'Grady, James |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Malley, William |
| Arnold, Sydney | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | O'Shee, James John |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury. E.) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Hayden, John Patrick | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Hazleton, Richard | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Barton, William | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Hemmerde, Edward George | Pointer, Joseph |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Henry, Sir Charles | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Higham, John Sharp | Radford, George Heynes |
| Boland, John Pius | Hinds, John | Reddy, Michael |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Hodge, John | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Brace, William | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Holt, Richard Durning | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Bryce, John Annan | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Robinson, Sidney |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | John, Edward Thomas | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Rowlands, James |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Jones. J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Jones Leif Stratten (Notts Rushcliffe) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Joyce, Michael | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Clough, William | Keating, Matthew | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Clynes, John R. | Kelly, Edward | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Sheehy, David |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Kilbride, Denis | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Cowan, William Henry | King, J. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon,S.Molton) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Cullinan, John | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Lardner, James C. R. | Sutherland. John E. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lundon, Thomas | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Tennant, Harold John |
| Delany, William | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Thomas, James Henry |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | McGhee, Richard | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Dickinson, W. H. | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Dillon, John | Macpherson, James Ian | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Doris, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Wardle, George J. |
| Duffy, William J. | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow Tradeston) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Meagher, Michael | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Meehan. Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Middlebrook, William | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Millar, James Duncan | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull. W.) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Molloy, Michael | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Molteno, Percy Alport | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Field, William | Morgan, George Hay | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Morison, Hector | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Muldoon, John | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | Munro, Robert | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | |
| Glanville, Harold James | Nolan, Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. W. Jones and Mr. Webb. |
| Goldstone, Frank | Nuttall, Harry | |
| Greig, Colonel James William |
On the Report stage we do not deal with the Bill by Clauses. We are dealing with the Bill as a whole.
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The House divided: Ayes, 211, Noes, 82.
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Fletcher, John Samuel | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Gilmour, Captain John | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Greene, W. R. | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Barnes, George N. | Gretton, John | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Barnston, Harry | Guinness, Hon.W.E, (Bury S. Edmunds) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Bird, Alfred | Helmsley, Viscount | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hills, John Waller | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Boyton, James | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hogge, James Myles | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Horner, Andrew Long | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Butcher, John George | Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Cassel, Felix | Kellaway, Frederick George | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Kerry, Earl of | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Lewisham, Viscount | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Martin, Joseph | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Mount, William Arthur | Younger, Sir George |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. | Neilson, Francis | |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Goldsmith and Mr. Rawlinson. |
| Fell, Arthur | Parkes, Ebenezer | |
| Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | ||
Question put accordingly, "That the words of the Bill to the word 'writing' stand part of the Bill."
Division No. 213.]
| AYES.
| [10.55 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Cowan, William Henry | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) |
| Adamson, William | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Crumley, Patrick | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Cullinan, John | Hazleton, Richard |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Hemmerde, Edward George |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Dawes, J. A. | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Delany, William | Higham, John Sharp |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Hills, John Waller |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Devlin, Joseph | Hinds, John |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Dickinson, W. H. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Dillon, John | Hodge, John |
| Barnes, George N. | Doris, William | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Duffy, William J. | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Barton, William | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Elverston, Sir Harold | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | John, Edward Thomas |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Bird, Alfred | Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) |
| Boland, John Pius | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Ffrench, Peter | Joyce, Michael |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Field, William | Keating, Matthew |
| Brace, William | Fiennes, Hon Eustace Edward | Kelly, Edward |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Fitzgibbon, John | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Kilbride, Denis |
| Bryce, John Annan | Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | King, Joseph |
| Buckmaster, Stanely O. | Gilmour, Captain John | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon,S.Molton) |
| Butcher, John George | Glanville, Harold James | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Goldstone, Frank | Lardner, James C. R. |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Cawlsy, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Greig, Colonel James William | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Gulland, John William | Lundon, Thomas |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Lynch, Arthur Alfred |
| Clough, William | Hackett, John | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |
| Clynes, John R. | Hancock, John George | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | McGhee, Richard |
The House divided: Ayes, 242; Noes, 53.
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Stewart, Gershom |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Peto, Basil Edward | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Sutherland, John E. |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Pointer, Joseph | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Marks, Sir George Croydon | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Thomas, James Henry |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Radford, G. H. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Meagher, Michael | Reddy, Michael | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Middlebrook, William | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Millar, James Duncan | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Wardle, G. J. |
| Molloy, Michael | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Weston, Colonel J. W. |
| Morgan, George Hay | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Morison, Hector | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Robinson, Sidney | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Mount, William Arthur | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| Muldoon, John | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Wiles, Thomas |
| Munro, Robert | Rowlands, James | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C. | Salter, Arthur Clavell | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Nolan, Joseph | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Nuttall, Harry | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Sanderson, Lancelot | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Scanlan, Thomas | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| O'Dowd, John | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| O'Grady, James | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. | Younger Sir George |
| O'Malley, William | Sheehy, David | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | |
| O'Shee, James John | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. W. Jones and Mr. Webb. |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | |
| Parry, Thomas H. | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
NOES.
| ||
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Greene, Walter Raymond | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Barnston, Harry | Gretton, John | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Guinness, Hon.W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds) | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Cassel, Felix | Helmsley, Viscount | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) | Hogge, James Myles | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Horner, Andrew Long | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Jessel, Captain H. M. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Kerry, Earl of | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | |
| Fell, Arthur | Martin, Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Goldsmith and Mr. Rawlinson. |
| Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | |
| Fletcher, John Samuel | Parkes, Ebenezer | |
As it is now after eleven o'clock, I desire to move, "That the further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be adjourned."
I cannot accept that Motion, as the House has resolved to sit after eleven o'clock.
Clause 3—(Remaining Portion)
"writing of two duly qualified medical practitioners, one of whom shall be a medical practitioner approved for the purpose by the local authority (in the prescribed form), stating that the person to whom the certificate relates is a defective and the class of defectives to which he belongs, accompanied by a statement, signed by the parent or guardian, giving the prescribed particulars with respect to him.
(2) Where a defective has been so placed in an institution for defectives or under guardianship the managers of the institution, or the person under whose guardianship he has been placed, shall, within seven days after his reception send to the Board of Control hereinafter constituted (in this Act referred to as the Board) notice of his reception and such other particulars as may be prescribed.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "writing of," and to insert instead thereof the words "the prescribed form signed by."
It is merely a formal Amendment in order to make way for the substantial Amendment which I have on the Paper lower down, and to which I have already referred in my explanation of the preceding Amendment. I hope the House will allow me to get this Amendment at once, so we can get on to the subsequent Amendment later on. I leave out the words "in the prescribed form" where they occur lower down, but that is merely verbal in order to make way for the subsequent Amendment, which is an Amendment of very much more substance, and one which I undertook at an earlier stage of our discussions to move in order to satisfy criticism raised —What is the prescribed form?
I think the right hon. Gentleman might explain rather more fully. It is rather difficult to understand what he proposes to do. He proposes to leave out the "writing of" and to put in the words "the prescribed form signed by." In what respect is the new wording better than the old? We ought to have some explanation of what the Amendment is, even if we are not allowed to discuss the most important Clause of the Bill.
I am sorry if I did not make the point clear.
You very seldom do.
The Noble Lord need not inform me quite so pointedly. I propose to move out the words "writing of," and to insert the words "in the prescribed form" instead. Then when we come to the lines of the Clause where the words "in prescribed form" appear in brackets, I propose to leave them out. That is purely a drafting Amendment. Unless I move them out there I should not be able to move the subsequent Amendment.
What is the subsequent Amendment?
It is on the Paper "And where the defective is not an idiot or imbecile, countersigned by a judicial authority for the purpose of this Act." I propose to insert these words, and in order to do so, I must put in the words "in the prescribed form," instead of the words "writing of" and leave them out where they appear in brackets lower down. I hope I have made the point quite clear to the Noble Lord.
Does "prescribed form" mean in writing? What is the meaning of the words?
They mean, as shown in Clause 17, prescribed regulations made under this Act.
I suppose on this first Amendment to leave out "writing of" and insert "prescribed form," we must also discuss the Amendment to leave out the words "in the prescribed form" lower down, and that this is the only opportunity we shall have.
It would be more convenient to discuss that Amendment in its proper place.
The Clause would be made nonsense of unless the subsequent Amendment is put in. The one Amendment occurs in two different places.
If the hon. Member discusses that Amendment now he cannot discuss it again on the next Amendment.
Would it put us cut of court later on?
If it is discussed now I certainly should not allow another discussion on the other Amendment when we reach it.
Amendment put, and agreed to.
I beg to move in Subsection (1) to leave out the word "two" ["two duly qualified medical practitioners"] and to insert instead thereof the word "three," so that a certificate of three medical practitioners must be obtained. The Government are so proficient in this matter, and so desirous of being agreeable to everyone, that I have no doubt this Amendment will be accepted.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I hope my hon. Friend will not persist in this Amendment, because it is carrying it too far in the case of defectives to provide for the certificates of three duly qualified medical practitioners. In the case of a lunatic there are certificates from two medical practitioners, and I do not think there is any sufficient reason for departing from that practice.
I do not think the answer of the Under-Secretary is a sufficient one. The original proposal of the Government provided for the certificate of one medical practitioner, and the Government admitted in Committee that the arguments were sufficiently strong to change "one" into "two." Personally, I do not see why the same arguments should not induce the right hon. Gentleman to accept "three" instead of "two." The Under-secretary should not meet a serious argument with a quip, and hon. Members are entitled to a respectful answer, and not a few perfunctory sentences. This is not a proper way of conducting the business before Parliament. I do not understand why Bills are put before Parliament at all if, when an Amendment is put forward, there is not to be a serious discussion. I understand that this Bill was submitted to a Grand Committee from which, necessarily, many hon. Members were excluded, and this is the only opportunity they have of discussing the Bill at all. The earlier Clauses are very important and raise very difficult questions, which deserve very careful consideration. The manner in which this Bill is being conducted is in flagrant contrast with the tone in which the Prime Minister spoke about this measure. He assented to the view that it ought to be conducted in a conciliatory manner. There has been, nothing but discourtesy.
The Noble Lord's remarks are scarcely relevant to this Amendment.
I bow to your ruling, and will address myself more strictly to the Amendment. It seems to me that the one safeguard in this Bill is the medical certificate, and it ought to be made as certain as it can be made. The whole Bill really rests upon medical opinion. No one is to be shut up unless a certificated is granted. The procedure, when a certificate has been granted, is such as to leave safeguards which are not entirely satisfactory. There is, for example, only one magistrate whose assent is required. It is therefore important that the medical certificate should be as strong as it can be. The hon. Member's Amendment is that there should be not merely two but three signatories to the document, and it does not seem to me to be unreasonable, this being the main protection against abuse, that three doctors instead of two should be assenting parties to the certificate. This is not the same as the case of lunacy. The case of lunacy is relatively a, very easily distinguished case. The case of a feeble-minded person is one in which it is confessedly very easy to make a mistake. Therefore, it might easily happen that there would be difficult cases in which it would be hard to determine whether a, person was or was not a feeble-minded person within the construction of the Act: and it does not seem to me unreasonable that you should require rather a stronger body of medical opinion in support of the proposition that a person is feeble-minded or morally imbecile than you do in support of the proposition that a person is a lunatic. At any rate, this is the main safeguard in the Bill, and I cannot see why you should not make it as strong and as trustworthy as it can be made by three doctors' signatures to the certificate.
The Under-Secretary has advanced two arguments against this Amendment. The first was that in Grand Committee they accepted an Amendment increasing the number of doctors from one to two, and the second was that under the Lunacy Acts only two doctors were required. I would point out that a very large number of hon. Members had not the privilege of being on the Grand Committee and that they therefore cannot know what arguments were brought forward there to convince them that two was the right number. Under these circumstances, I think that the hon. Gentleman might have told us why he considered two the right number, seeing that originally he put in the number one. We do not even know whether in Grand Committee three or four was moved or whether the only opportunity of amending it was by accepting the Amendment of two. I am afraid that I am not at all conversant with the provisions of the Lunacy Acts, but I believe that the argument that there ought to be two doctors because under the Lunacy Acts two doctors, are necessary is fallacious.
I believe, though here I am open to correction, that under the Lunacy Acts there are very stringent provisions as to whether or not the certificates of the two doctors should be accepted; and I appeal to my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Rawlinson), who has had great experience in these matters, whether I am not right in thinking that under the Lunacy laws there is the right, also, of trial by jury. If I am right in that, then I submit that it entirely disposes of the second argument of the Under-Secretary. We therefore ought to have close reasons advanced by the Home Secretary for refusing this Amendment. I myself am in favour of the Amendment, because I think the power we are going to put into the hands of two men is too great a power for so few hands. If this proposal passes we might have a Ben Allen and a Bob Sawyer of the medical profession giving a certificate consigning a person to what comes to be confinement for a very great number of years. I am the last man to say anything against the medical profession; but it is a large profession, and all the members of it are not animated by the same feelings. Anyone with experience of life and business knows perfectly well that if a witness does not desire to come before the court he has no difficulty whatever in obtaining a medical certificate that the state of his health is such that it is not safe for him to come before the court. Under these circumstances, and in view of the fact that
Division No. 214.]
| AYES.
| [11.25 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Cullinan, John | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Adamson, William | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Higham, John Sharp |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hills, John Waller |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Dawes, James Arthur | Hill-Wood, Samuel |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Delany, William | Hinds, John |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Arnold, Sydney | Devlin, Joseph | Hogge, James Myles |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Dickinson, W. H. | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Dickson Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Dillon, John | Horner, Andrew Long |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Doris, William | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Duffy, William J. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Barnston, Harry | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Jessel, Captain H. M. |
| Barton, William | Edwards, A. Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | John, Edward Thomas |
| Beale, Sir William phipson | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Elverston, Sir Harold | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshrire) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Fell, Arthur | Joyce, Michael |
| Bird, Alfred | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Keating, Matthew |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Ffrench, Peter | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Boland, John Pius | Field, William | Kelly, Edward |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Kerry, Earl of |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Fitzgibbon, John | Kilbride, Denis |
| Boyle, William L. (Norfolk, Mid) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | King, Joseph |
| Brace, William | Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Gibbs, George Abraham | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Gilmour, Captain John | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert |
| Bryce, John Annan | Glanville, Harold James | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Goldstone, Frank | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lundon, Thomas |
| Butcher, John George | Greene, Walter Raymond | Lynch, Arthur Alfred |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |
| Cassel, Felix | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | McGhee, Richard |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. T. J. |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Hackett, John | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hancock, John George | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Clough, William | Hayden, John Patrick | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Clynes, John R. | Hayward, Evan | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hazleton, Richard | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Hemmerde, Edward George | Meagher, Michael |
| Crumley, Patrick | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
I have shown that the chief arguments of the Under-Secretary are gone, I think we ought to have some much stronger argument before rejecting the Amendment.
I think the Government are running a very great risk in not accepting this Amendment. Only last week I heard two doctors say that one of the Members of the Government was an idiot, and the same doctors gave an opinion that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill was an imbecile.
Those observations are not relevant to the Amendment.
Question put, "That the word 'two' stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 247; Noes, 24.
| Meehan, Patrick J (Queen's Co., Leix) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Middlebrook, William | Pringle, William M. R. | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Millar, James Duncan | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Thomas James Henry |
| Molloy, Michael | Reddy, Michael | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Morrell, Philip | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Muldoon, John | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Munro, Robert | Roberts, Sir H. (Denbighs) | Webb, H. |
| Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Weston, Colonel J. W. |
| Nolan, Joseph | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Robinson, Sidney | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Rowlands, James | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| O'Dowd, John | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| O'Grady, James | Scanlan, Thomas | Wiles, Thomas |
| O'Malley, William | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Sheehy, David | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| O'Shee, James John | Simon, Rt Hon. Sir John Allsebrook | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Parry, Thomas H. | Spear, Sir John Ward | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Perkins, Walter Frank | Stewart, Gershom | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Peto, Basil Edward | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark West) | Younger, Sir George |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Sutherland, John E. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Pointer, Joseph | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | |
| Pollock, Ernest Murray | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
NOES.
| ||
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Goldsmith, Frank | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Gretton, John | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Guinness, Hon.W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Boyton, James | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hodge, John | |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | O'Dowd, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Martin and Sir Frederick Banbury. |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Ronaldshay, Earl of | |
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words, "in the prescribed form," and insert the words, "and, where the defective is not an idiot or imbecile, countersigned by a judicial authority for the purposes of this Act."
The words are inserted here in order to carry out a pledge made in Grand Committee that where a defective is dealt with at the instance of his parent or guardian and is under the age of twenty-one, some judicial authority should be given to the proceedings and they should not merely be commenced on the certificate of two doctors. The words I have proposed carry out exactly, I believe, the pledge given in Grand Committee.I am not quite sure that the Amendment really carries out in any way the understanding on which my Amendment was withdrawn upstairs, because it is not quite clear what is meant by the word "countersigned." I should like to know whether the judicial authority under the Amendment will have power to make any inquiry as to the conditions under which the application is made, and as to the nature of the evidence on which it is based, because the object of my Amendment upstairs, which was practically accepted in substance by the Home Secretary, was that protection should be afforded as between the child and the parent, and that when an application is made by the parent for an order for the removal of the child to a home, some judicial authority or other should intervene. It might be suggested that the parent is unlikely to make an application, but by Clause 17 the word "parent" is given a rather wide definition, and may include any person who is doing the duty which ought to be performed by the father or mother. Under the circumstances, I ask the Home Secretary whether he could not see his way to alter the words and let the Amendment read, "where the defective is not an idiot or imbecile he cannot be removed except on the order of a judicial authority." That would mean that the judicial authority acting under this Clause would have the same power and the same duty as under any other Section in the Act.
I think this is one of those most illusory safeguards which sometimes we come across in Acts of Parliament. Under this Bill the parent has the power of shutting up his child, or in the case where there is a judicial separation the father, separated from the mother, has the power of taking the child away from her and shutting it up. Therefore it has to be safeguarded very carefully. That being the state of affairs, he can have the child shut up on the certificate of the two doctors referred to; and then there is this safeguard. Two certificates are to be granted by the medical authority in the prescribed form. The House of Commons has not the slightest idea what that prescribed form is going to be. It is one of the most important things in the Bill, and it is left to be settled by rules by some other tribunal. They have got the prescribed form, which may be a good or a futile one, signed by two doctors. It then has to be countersigned by a judicial authority—that is a magistrate. So when the two certificates are taken to the magistrate, he will probably be sitting in his own house, and not in a Court, and all that he can do is to satisfy himself that the certificate is in proper order, namely, properly signed by two doctors. If properly signed, he has no power to send for the two doctors, and no power to cross-examine them. It can be and must be done in his own house, and he has no power to do otherwise. I submit that this is quite an illusory safeguard. The proper course would be to bring these cases before a judicial authority. There is no reason why it should not be done by petition brought before a magistrate in open court, or in a court of some kind, and that he should have power to deal with the medical people. What is proposed here is merely the ministerial office of countersigning by a judicial authority. It is certainly necessary that some further power should be given to him under the Bill. I am glad to see one of the law officers of the Crown present. I do not think he will question what I have said.
I do not see the object of the Amendment. It does not appear to be a safeguard for these people at all. The medical certificate is taken by the parent or guardian to the magistrate in his private house, and he, without seeing either the doctors or the defectives, or making any inquiry whatever, can sign the medical certificate. It appears to me that there is no safeguard there. The alteration proposed by my hon. Friend (Mr. Ellis Davies) does make it a little bit better. You have got to remember that the doctors in cases of mental deficiency are the same as in cases of lunacy. In cases of lunacy there is some sort of judicial inquiry. Here you are proposing no judicial inquiry at all. You are trusting entirely to the supposition that the parent or guardian must always act in the interest of the child. If you get a parent or guardian not acting in the interest of the child, I do not think the safeguards in Clause 3 are worth the paper they are written on. The suggestion as to subsequent inquiry is not correct. From, the beginning of Clause 5 you will see that the application is made in private and from the beginning of Clause 6 you will see that it will be held in private. There is no open trial. If there is a case of a parent or guardian trying to shut up children without due cause there will be no possible safeguard for the liberty of the individual. We all know that cases might occur such as pointed out by the hon. Member for Cambridge University, where the parents quarrel, and might avenge themselves on each other by having the children locked up under this Bill. How would the Amendment proposed by the Secretary of State meet a case like that? It would not be possible in the circumstances for a magistrate to do anything but countersign the order in ignorance of the facts and have the child sent to one of these institutions. I think that possibly it might be worth while to have the Amendment if it was amended as proposed by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock. Otherwise it is not worth while having it.
I would suggest as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "countersigned" to insert the words "after due inquiry." I think that the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment is designed to meet a defect in the Bill, but I am not quite clear as to what the process of countersigning implies. It is very important that the judicial authority should not sign merely formally, but should first satisfy himself as to the propriety of the transaction. I do not see how that can be done unless you by your words insure that he makes some sort of inquiry. My impression is that countersignature normally means a signature certifying the accuracy of the previous signatures—in this case the signatures of the two duly qualified medical practitioners. If what is intended is something more than that, that the judicial authority should really inquire into the matter before giving the counter-signature, then it should say so, so that the judicial authority should only sign where he thought that the certificate was properly given. The words which I suggest would make the Amendment better designed to carry out that object.
We must first get rid of the words "in the prescribed form."
Question, "That the words 'in the prescribed form' stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
The Noble Lord perhaps would, instead of the words, "after due enquiry," move the words, "after such inquiry as he shall think fit."
I beg to move in the proposed Amendment, after the word "countersigned" to insert the words, "after such inquiry as he shall think fit."
Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.
Words proposed, as amended, inserted in the Bill.
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the words—
'stating that the person to whom the certificate relates is a defective and the class of defectives to which he belongs, accompanied by a statement, signed by the parent or guardian, giving the prescribed particulars with respect to him.
(2) Where a defective has been so placed in an institution for defectives or under guardianship the managers of the institution, or the person under whose guardianship he has been placed, shall, within seven days after his reception, send to the Board of Control hereinafter constituted (in this Act referred to as the Board) notice of his reception and such other particulars as may be prescribed.'"
Clause 4—(Power To Deal With Defectives Otherwise Than At The Instance Of Parent Or Guardian)
4. A defective subject to be dealt with under this Act otherwise than at the instance of his parent or guardian may be so dealt with—
but no such order shall be made except in the circumstances and in the manner hereinafter specified.
Clause 5—(Presentation Of Petitions)
Requirements as to the making of Orders.
(1) An order of a judicial authority under this Act shall be obtainable upon a private application by petition made by any relative or friend of the alleged defective, or by any officer of the local authority under this Act authorised in that behalf.
(2) Every petition shall be accompanied by two medical certificates, one of which shall be signed by a medical practitioner approved for the purpose by the local authority, or a certificate that a medical examination was impracticable, and by a statutory declaration signed by the petitioner and by at least one other person (who may be one of the persons who gave a medical certificate) stating—
(3) If a petition is not presented by a relative or by an officer of the local authority, it shall contain a statement of the reasons why the petition is not presented by a relative, and of the connection of the petitioner with the person to whom the petition relates and the circumstances under which he presents the petition.
(4) Where the Board are satisfied that a petition under this section ought to be presented concerning any person, and that the local authority have refused or neglected to cause a petition to be presented, they may direct an inspector or other officer to present a petition, and this section shall apply accordingly.
Division No. 215.]
| AYES.
| [11.54 p.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Field, William | Morgan, George Hay |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Morrell, Philip |
| Adamson, William | Fitzgibbon, John | Muldoon, John |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Munro, Robert |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Nolan, Joseph |
| Arnold, Sydney | Glanville, H. J. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Goldstone, Frank | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Gulland, John William | O'Dowd, John |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Grady, James |
| Barton, William | Hackett, John | O'Malley, William |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Shee, James John |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Hayden, John Patrick | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Hayward, Evan | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hazleton, Richard | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Boland, John Pius | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | PonsonBy, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Brace, William | Henry, Sir Charles | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Higham, John Sharp | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hodge, John | Reddy, Michael |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, John E, (Waterlord) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Illingworth, Percy H. | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | John, Edward Thomas | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Jones. Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Clough. William | Jones, William S. Glyn-(Stepney) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Clynes, John R. | Joyce, Michael | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Keating, Matthew | Rowlands, James |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Kelly, Edward | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L (Cleveland) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Kilbride, Denis | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Cullinan, John | King, Joseph | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Lardner, James C. R. | Sheehy, David |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Delany, William | Lundon, Thomas | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lynch, A. A. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Dickinson, W. H. | McGhee, Richard | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Doris, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Duffy, William J. | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Macpherson, James Ian | Tennant, Harold John |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Thomas, James Henry |
| Edwards, A. Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Meagher, Michael | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Esmonde. Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Middlebrook, William | Webb, H. |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Millar, James Duncan | Weston, Colonel J. W. |
| Ffrench, Peter | Molloy, Michael | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
Clause 6—(Procedure, On Hearing Petitions)
(1) Upon the presentation of the petition and such documents as aforesaid the judicial authority shall either visit the person to whom the petition relates, or summon him to appear before him.
(2) Proceedings before the judicial authority may
stand part of the Bill, be now put.
Question put, "That those words stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 186; Noes, 70.
| White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Williamson, Sir Archibald | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Whitehouse, John Howard | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) | |
| Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Wiles, Thomas | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Goldsmith, Frank | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Greene, Walter Raymond | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Guinness, Hon.W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Barnston, Harry | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Bird, Alfred | Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Boyle, William L. (Norfolk, Mid) | Hogge, James Myles | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Boyton, James | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Horner, Andrew Long | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Butcher, John George | Kerry, Earl of | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Cassel, Felix | Lewisham, Viscount | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Martin, Joseph | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Younger, Sir George |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Mount, William Arthur | |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Frederick Banbury and Lord Hugh Cecil. |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Perkins, Walter F. | |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Peto, Basil Edward | |
Question put accordingly, "That the words of the Bill to the word" [part of Clause 3, Clause 4, Clause 5, and part of Clause 6] "'may' stand part of the Bill."
Division No. 216.]
| AYES.
| [12 m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Crumley, Patrick | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |
| Adamson, William | Cullinan, John | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Hayward, Evan |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Hazleton, Richard |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Dawes, James Arthur | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |
| Baird, J. L. | Delany, William | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Devlin, Joseph | Higham, John Sharp |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Dickinson, W. H. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Doris, William | Hodge, John |
| Barton, William | Duffy, William J. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | John, Edward Thomas |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Elverston, Sir Harold | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) |
| Bird, Alfred | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Boland, John Pius | Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Joyce, Michael |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Keating, Matthew |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Ffrench, Peter | Kelly, Edward |
| Brace, William | Field, William | Kerry, Earl of |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Kilbride, Denis |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Fitzgibbon, John | King, Joseph |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Gilmour, Captain John | Lardner, James C. R. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Butcher, John George | Goldstone, Frank | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Lundon, Thomas |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Gulland, John William | Lynch, A. A. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |
| Clough, William | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) |
| Clynes, John R. | Hackett, John | McGhee, Richard |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
The House divided: Ayes, 213; Noes, 37.
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Pointer, Joseph | Sutherland, John E. |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Marks, Sir George Croydon | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Meagher, Michael | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Reddy, Michael | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Middlebrook, William | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Millar, James Duncan | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Molloy, Michael | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | Webb, H. |
| Morrell, Philip | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Weston, Colonel J. W. |
| Muldoon, John | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Munro, Robert | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Robinson, Sidney | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Nolan, Joseph | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Rowlands, James | Whyte, A, F. (Perth) |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Wiles, Thomas |
| O'Dowd, John | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| O'Grady, James | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| O'Malley, William | Scanlan, Thomas | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N) |
| O'Shee, James John | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Sheehy, David | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Parry, Thomas H. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | Younger, Sir George |
| Perkins, Walter F. | Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) | |
| Peto, Basil Edward | Stewart, Gershom | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Hon. Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
NOES.
| ||
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Mount, William Arthur |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Falle, Bertram Godfray | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Gibbs, G. A. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Barnston, Harry | Goldsmith, Frank | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Greene, W. R. | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Guinness, Hon.W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Boyton, James | Hills, John Waller | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Cassel, Felix | Hogge, James Myles | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Cautley, H. S. | Horner, Andrew Long | |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Jessel, Captain H. M. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord Hugh Cecil and Sir Frederick Banbury. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Martin, Joseph | |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | |
Remaining Portion Of Clause 6—(Procedure On Searing Petitions)
may in any case if the judicial authority thinks fit, and shall, if so desired by the person to whom the petition relates, be conducted in private, and in that case no one except the petitioner, the person to whom the petition relates, any two persons appointed for the purpose by the person to whom the petition relates, and the persons signing the medical certificates and the statutory declaration accompanying the petition shall, without leave of the judicial authority, be allowed to be present.
(3) If the judicial authority is satisfied that the person to whom the petition relates is a defective and is also satisfied that he is subject to be dealt with under this Act, the judicial authority may, if he thinks it desirable to do so in the interests of such person, make an order either ordering him to be sent to an institution the managers of which are willing to receive him, or appointing a suitable person to be his guardian, and the order shall state the class of defectives to which he belongs, and the circumstances which render him subject to be dealt with under this Act:
Provided that—
(4) If the judicial authority is not satisfied that the person to whom the petition relates is a defective, and subject to be dealt with under this Act, or that it is desirable in the interests of such person that an order should be made, the judicial authority may, if he thinks fit, adjourn the case for a period not exceeding fourteen days for further evidence or information, and may order that the person to whom the petition relates shall submit himself to medical examination, or may dismiss the petition:
Provided that, unless the petition is dismissed, the judicial authority shall order a medical examination in any case where the petition was accompanied by a certificate that a medical examination was impracticable.
I beg to move in Sub-section (2) to leave out the words "may in any case if the judicial authority thinks fit, and." The Clause gives the details of the procedure for the hearing of petitions. The first Sub-section provides:
In the ordinary course of events the person will be summoned to appear before him. The first notification a defective will get of the probability of his being put away will be a summons to appear before the judicial authority, and if the judicial authority thinks fit the petition shall be conducted in private. There has been a good deal of protest against hearing these petitions in private, and the hon. Member for North-West Durham (Mr. Atherley Jones) has some Amendments down on this point, but unfortunately he is not able to be present. If my Amendment is carried, the Clause will then read:"(1) Upon the presentation of the petition and such documents as aforesaid, the judicial authority shall either visit the person to whom the petition relates, or summon him to appear before."
That removes from the judicial authority the power to hold a public inquiry if the person to whom the petition relates desires it to be conducted in private, and at the same time it prevents any hole-and-corner business, and that is important. I do not think I need labour the importance of having public hearings in these cases. The mere presence of the Press acts as a deterrent against any hole-and-corner and unjust proceedings. Although the Press may not report the case the presence of the Press is a safeguard against any injustice being done because directly a case appears in the newspapers where there has been any injustice hon. Members, as well as the friends and relatives of a defective, can make whatever protest is possible and get the matter rectified or reversed."(2) Proceedings before the judicial authority shall, if so desired by the person to whom the petition relates, be conducted in private."
I beg leave to second the Amendment.
This is a controversial point as to whether the proceedings shall be public or private. Under the Clause as it stands, normally, the proceedings shall be public, but if the judicial authority thinks fit or if so desired by the person to whom the petition relates the inquiry shall be conducted in private. In this Clause we are very nearly following the recommendation of the Royal Commission. It is not an easy point to decide. There are some who suspect the judicial authority and some who suspect the doctors. We have to consider the interests of the patient. The proceedings under the Lunacy Acts are conducted in private, and I submit that it is really in the interests of the alleged defective and of the alleged defective's family that these proceedings should be in private, if the judicial authority or the defective himself desires it. I do not know why it should be considered a slur upon the family, but we know perfectly well that parents are not anxious to publish the fact that they have a defective child, both for their own sake and for the sake of the defective's brothers and sisters, and therefore, although publicity is a safeguard it is also a danger. I suggest that when we say that normally the proceedings should be public, but that when the judicial authority or the alleged defective desire it it shall be in private, we are making the best provision possible as well as following the recommendation of the Royal Commission and the procedure under the Lunacy Act.
Personally. I strongly support this Bill, and I hope to see it on the Statute Book before very long, but I support the Amendment, because the proceedings before a judicial authority ought always in my opinion, to be public. I speak from some experience of judicial proceedings of various kinds, and I have never, except in the case where the interests of infants are concerned and where private matters are gone into known any advantage to be gained by a private judicial inquiry. Here, where you have a judicial inquiry into the question whether a man's liberty should be restrained or not, it is essential that publicity should be accorded rather than stifled. I also very strongly object to the judicial authority being the body that should have the power against the wishes of everybody concerned of hold-an inquiry in private. I could quite understand the inquiry being in private if the parents or the immediate relatives for some good cause shown desire it, but to give an unfettered discretion, which is not subject to correction by any other tribunal, to the judicial authority which is to investigate and determine the matter is to my mind an innovation which, if adopted, may have very serious consequences. It would be a precedent which would possibly be followed in other cases with very disastrous consequences. I do not see that the slightest benefit either to the lunatic or to his family is to be gained by giving this great unfettered discretion to the judicial authority which is to determine this matter. I think this Amendment should be accepted and that the only case in which the inquiry might be held in private should be where the parents of the patient on good cause shown desire it. I would strongly urge upon the Home Secretary, who himself has had considerable experience in judicial investigations, to realise the importance of not introducing a-precedent for holding these judicial inquiries in private. The Under-Secretary has suggested that lunacy proceedings are analogous. A lunacy inquiry is with the object of determining whether or not a person is a lunatic, and those proceedings are before, a jury. You cannot have a man declared a lunatic otherwise than by the inquiry of a jury.
In 1911 and last year we had twenty or thirty thousand petitions, and in only four did they want a jury.
The parties interested are entitled to have a jury, but you are here introducing a very serious innovation in judicial practice and enabling the Court to determine finally, against the wishes of everybody, the lunatic included, that the inquiry shall be private. Under the Bill as it stands, the lunatic and everybody concerned may object to a private inquiry, and yet you are giving power to the judicial authority to say that the in- quiry shall be private and the proceedings concealed from the public.
It must be understood that if this Amendment is carried the relations of the defective will still be able to have the case heard in private. We are not interfering in any way with the friends of defective persons. All we are doing is to say that the Court shall not against the wishes of the defective and his friends hold the inquiry in private. This inquiry is not similar to an inquiry in lunacy; it is an inquiry as to whether a person comes within the different categories set out in the Bill, and it is a case in which the presence of the Court may help very materially.
I think that when you are having, as in this case, an officer of the local authority as petitioner—and, I suppose, in years to come, in at least nine out of every ten cases the petitioner will be an officer of the local Mental Defectives Committee of the borough or county council—it is far more important the inquiry should be held in public than it is when the petition is laid by the friends and relatives of the lunatic. There ought to be the keenest criticism of the action of the officer of the local authority. In future you are going to have a black list drawn up of mentally defectives persons in the country, and whenever any person whose name is on that list is brought before a Court the officer of the local authority will submit a petition in order to have that person confined. Therefore, in dealing with such cases it is ten times more, important to have them heard in public than in the way an ordinary lunacy inquiry is conducted. Even now, where the officer of an education authority summonses people for not sending their children to school or for some other infraction of the Education Act the cases arc fully reported, and the fact that they are so reported acts as a restraint on the local authority proceeding against too many people. You have through the mere menace of publicity alone a large check upon arbitrary and despotic action on the part of a local authority, and if ever publicity is necessary, surely it is required in cases where you will be inflicting the rigour of the law upon the poorest class of the population who do not know their rights as we do, and who, if the inquiry is held in private, will be absolutely at the mercy of the local authority. Therefore I protest that we ought to pass this Amendment. I hoped that the Government were going to accept it, and I am sorry some influence has supervened which has induced them to decide to keep it out of the Bill. I am certain that this provision will make the Bill far more of a hardship to the lower classes than it would prove with the Amendment in it. You are storing up for yourselves an evil day when the people of the country realise the sort of legislation which you who are not affected by this law are passing. Can anybody doubt the statement the Bill will not affect Members of this House? The law is only meant for the lower orders, and anyone who reads the Bill cannot fail to see that the means through which it is going to be enforced is through the ordinary elementary school, from which mentally defective children are to be gradually weeded out. This Clause will, without doubt, inflict considerable hardship upon poor people who have mentally defective children, who love them and wish to keep them with them. These are the people who are going to be penalised by this Clause, and when you start penalising them like that you are touching them in the most intimate feelings, and you will infallibly evoke a great burst of unpopularity.I am inclined to agree with the hon. Member that publicity is an advantage in these matters as well as a certain safeguard, but I think he I overrates its value when he thinks it will; make people conduct their business in a just and reasonable manner, or that it will prevent arbitrary and despotic decisions. The House of Commons always sits in public, but it cannot be said that its business is reasonably conducted, or that it is free for arbitrary and despotic procedure. The Home Secretary might do worse if he sat in private, and therefore I am inclined to agree with the hon. Member
Division No. 217.]
| AYES.
| [12.33 a.m
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Brace, William | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Brady, Patrick Joseph | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Brunner, John F. L. | Dawes, James Arthur |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Bryce, J. Annan | Delany, William |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Devlin, Joseph |
| Arnold, Sydney | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Dickinson, W. H. |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Doris, William |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Duffy, William J. |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Clancy, John Joseph | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Barton, William | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Clough, William | Edwards, A. Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Clynes, John R. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |
| Boland, John Pius | Crumley, Patrick | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Cullinan, John | Essex, Sir Richard Walter |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson |
that this Amendment would be an improvement. I shall therefore support it.
The last thing I want to do is to take up time, but I really do think this is important. I agree with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Henry Terrell). I cannot imagine what is the object of giving the judicial authority power to sit in private. The Under-Secretary based his speech principally on the argument that he could understand cases where the persons concerned would be likely to wish that the cases of their children should be heard in private. That is already safeguarded by the subsequent provisions of the Sub-section. Let me give a case which is in my mind. Supposing you take a town where the magistrates are administering this Act and an opinion gets about that they are not administering it in accordance with the provisions of the Act, and then they have it in their power to do this. What a very unsatisfactory thing. Perhaps there is a good deal of discussion as to whether one particular person is one who ought to be shut up—and I can quite imagine a great amount of feeling being raised in a small place like that about one particular case—and if the justices are aware of that feeling and have perhaps made up their minds, to a certain extent—as we know justices do sometimes make up their minds—as to how they are going to decide the case, and they are going to decide it against the popular opinion they may decide to hear it in private, and that is a very unsatisfactory thing. This is a very important matter and there is no reason to give this power. I certainly shall support the Amendment.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The House divided: Ayes. 172; Noes, 56.
| Ffrench, Peter | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Field, William | Macpherson, James Ian | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Rowlands, James |
| Fitzgibbon, John | McGhee, Richard | Samuel, J, (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meagher, Michael | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Sheehy, David |
| Gulland, John William | Middlebrook, William | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Millar, James Duncan | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Hackett, John | Molloy, Michael | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Morgan, George Hay | Stewart, Gershom |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Muldoon, John | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Munro, Robert | Sutherland, John E. |
| Hayward, Evan | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Hazleton, Richard | Nolan, Joseph | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Henry, Sir Charles | O'Doherty, Philip | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Dowd, John | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Hills, John Waller | O'Grady, James | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Malley, William | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Webb, H. |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Shee, James John | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| John, Edward Thomas | Parker, James (Halifax) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Parry, Thomas H. | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Wiles, Thomas |
| Joyce, Michael | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Keating, Matthew | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Kelly, Edward | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| King, Joseph | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Reddy, Michael | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Lardner, James C. R. | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | |
| Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | |
| Lundon, Thomas | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Lynch, A. A. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
NOES.
| ||
| Adamson, William | Gilmour, Captain John | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Goldsmith, Frank | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Goldstone, Frank | Pointer, Joseph |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Barlow, Montague, (Salford, South) | Greene, W. R. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Barnston, Harry | Guinness, Hon.W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Boyton, James | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hodge, John | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Cassel, Felix | Hogge, James Myles | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Horner, Andrew Long | Weston, Colonel J. W. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Lewisham, Viscount | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Younger, Sir George |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Morrell, Philip | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Martin. |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Mount, William Arthur | |
I rise to move: "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."
We have been considering this Bill now for about nine hours, and I really think the time has arrived when this Debate should be adjourned. Most of the time we have been listening to the very excellent speeches delivered by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood), and at the present moment the Home Secretary seems no longer inclined to hear any arguments either in favour of or against the Bill. All that is being done at present is for a number of Clauses to be put until we reach a Clause on which the Home Secretary himself has an Amendment down. On a Bill of this importance, which the House is discussing for the first time—because the House so far has had no opportunity of discussing the details of the Bill—the most careful consideration ought to be given to the various Clauses in the Bill, and therefore I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to agree to the Adjournment of the Debate and give us another day on which we can discuss some of the important proposals contained in the next few Clauses.In seconding the Amendment, I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to make some proposal which we can accept. I think he will agree with me that it is not wise to keep the House sitting up during the small hours of the morning. I do not know whether I am speaking for everyone on this side or not, but, so far as I am personally concerned, I should be quite willing to meet the right hon. Gentleman if he would make some reasonable proposal. I do not think it is possible for him to obtain the whole of the Bill to-night, or rather this morning, and it is perfectly true, as my hon. Friend says, that this is the first time the House as a whole has had the opportunity of considering this most important Bill. The House ought to have some opportunity of expressing its opinion, at any rate, upon some of the Clauses. I do not rise to second this Amendment in any hostile spirit, but rather in the hope that we shall come to some sort of agreement that will be mutually advantageous to everybody and really in the interest of the House itself.
I recognise fully the sympathetic spirit in which the Motion has been made and seconded. I must, however, appeal to the House to support me in going on with this Bill. At this period of the Session it is only reasonable to remind the House that every day given to the further consideration of a Bill like this which is going to be passed, simply moans encroaching more and more into the holidays, which I know my hon. Friends are as anxious to have as I am. If we have this Debate now, with a little effort we ought to get through the Report stage, remembering also that the strenuous opposition to this Bill only comes from a mere handful of Members, to meet whose views, I would like to remind them, I have been doing everything I can for a period of two years. They will not be satisfied unless or until this Bill is turned from a Bill representing the views of the great majority of the House into a Bill representing the views of the smallest minority. That we cannot do. This Bill has got to represent in principle the views of the House. The House has been very willing to assist me in meeting the reasonable objections of hon. Members who take a particular view in dealing with matters of this kind, and I would beg them not to press their opposition to an unreasonable extent, but allow us now to make substantial progress with the Bill. There is so little left of controversy that with a little good-will we might get the whole Bill at this one Sitting.
I do not think the right hon. Gentleman takes up a wholly reasonable line. It is not the fault of the opponents of the Bill or the non-official supporters of the Bill that the measure comes before the House so late in the Session. The Government have had control of the time of the House, and it was quite possible for them to have brought it under consideration at an earlier period in the Session and give reasonable time for its consideration. I do not think it is very reasonable to ask the House to take the Report stage of a Bill containing seventy Clauses, even if the opposition is confined to a small number of Members, at a single Sitting. It is certainly propounding a standard of progress different from that to which either party has been accustomed since I have been in Parliament. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman will be able to recall a single instance of a Bill of this complexity and length being passed through its Report stage at a single Sitting of the House of Commons. It appears to me that if you are to have a Consideration stage at all you really mean a Bill to be considered. I do not think the discussion up to now has been of unreasonable length. [HON. MEMBERS: "Clause 1."] The first Clause passed quite easily through the House and no one used obstruction.
Six hours.
It is an exceedingly important Clause, containing the definition of feeble-minded persons. The first two Clauses are the most important in the Bill. I am putting it to the right hon. Gentleman that it is not really a reasonable thing to pass a Bill of this length and complexity in a single Sitting. After all, we are supposed to be doing useful work in reviewing this Bill in the House. I presume that the right hon. Gentleman does not suggest the we are not entitled to discuss the Bill at all; and, if we are entitled to discuss it, then we are entitled to discuss it at a reasonable hour of the day. If the right hon. Gentleman could say that he wanted two or three more Clauses I do not suppose that anybody would be inclined to resist him, and if he would make a reasonable proposal we could come to an understanding. But to ask that the whole Bill should be carried through the consideration stage at a single sitting is, I submit, to treat the House with contempt. The Government might as well have put down a Motion to dispense with the whole stage. If they do not think it right to move that sort of Motion, it is presumed that they think there should be a proper consideration of the Bill, and it is perfectly absurd to say that you can have anything like a proper consideration in the early hours of the morning.
Therefore, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will now seriously consider the propriety of adjourning the Debate. We ought to treat legislation in a serious spirit, and it is impossible for the Government to say they are doing so if they expect members of this House to review the remainder of the seventy Clauses at this Sitting. This is not a matter of party controversy. It is not a Bill which divides the House on ordinary party lines, and the right hon. Gentleman has only to conduct the Bill in a reasonable and conciliatory spirit in order to make more rapid progress than he has already achieved. He has made no appeal to the House to assist him, and he has been content with the arbitrary Motions he has made from time to time, which have had the effect of shutting out discussion on matters that some of us think should not have been passed over without consideration. But even so, he has made very good progress. Why should ho not be satisfied with a moderate, but nevertheless very real, measure of progress, and adjourn the further consideration of the measure at a point which could be agreed upon by arrangement with all concerned? If such Bills as this are to pass through the House of Commons, they can only be properly debated if there is a certain amount of give and take between Members and the Government. I certainly do not think the course which the Government propose to take on this occasion is a reasonable one, and I shall therefore support the Motion for the adjournment of the Debate.I beg to support the Motion for the adjournment of the discussion, and I do so, first of all, on purely personal grounds. I have had to sit here during practically the whole time since a quarter to four o'clock yesterday afternoon with the result that I have not been able to go to the dining room or even to the tea room to get a meal. I think it is rather hard that one should be overwhelmed by the mere physical impossibility of remaining in one place without a meal for such a long period, and I trust, that the Government will be reasonable in the matter. But I support the adjournment for an even stronger reason which I will state shortly to the House. This is the first occasion on which the Government have made use of the Kangaroo to closure a Bill which is not opposed officially by the Opposition. It is also the first occasion on which a non-controversial Bill in the ordinary party sense has been forced through the House when it has not been obstructed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh."] I notice that some hon. Members do not agree with my statement, but I venture to say that any Member who has been here during the whole of the Debate will bear me out when I say that there has been no sort of obstruction to the Bill. The Amendments moved by my Friends and I have been Amendments of real substance, and they have been debated seriously. It is true that since the use of the Kangaroo Closure began a change has taken place, but I defy anybody to say that previous to that there was obstruction of any kind. On the other hand the discussion has been of a practical, a business-like, and a useful character. When the Home Secretary says that the first Clause took six hours to get through he forgets that an hour-and-a-half was taken up with the discussion on new Clauses. There is one other thing to remember. The Secretary of State talks about those who have sought to improve this Bill by all the means in their power as being only a small minority opposed to the Bill. He knows perfectly well that there would be an even smaller minority if the Bill had been framed on voluntary lines.
We all know that something must be done to deal with the problem of mentally defective people, and if the Bill had been cast on voluntary lines I am certain that there would have been an overwhelming majority in favour of it. You would in fact have had a unanimous House, anxious to frame-the best sort of measure and to place it on the Statute Book. There is one other thing that I want to say. However over- whelming the majority in this House, I have always understood that it was a ruling principle that minorities were given fair play. I want the House to realise that the minority to-day may be the majority to-morrow, and that the minority may be right and the majority be wrong. You cannot make things right or wrong by Act of Parliament, whether legislation is carried by majorities as great as 200 or 300 or not. This Bill, if it is made into an Act of Parliament, will be a wrong Act, and it will be right for anybody to resist that Act by the best means in his power. It is a measure which is contrary to the conscience of humanity, and whether you pass it by a triumphant majority here or not, you will not make the Act binding on anybody. It is, I submit, an iniquity that a Bill of such tremendous importance should be passed through the House of Commons by means of a drastic use of the closure in the small hours of the morning, and in any case it shall not be said that the minority, small though it may be, gave way in their perfectly legitimate opposition to these proposals, however great may be the strain imposed on them.As a supporter of the Bill, I feel that I must support the appeal which has been made to the Home Secretary either to adjourn or to come to some bargain with hon. Members on this side of the House as to the amount of further progress which is to be made during the present sitting. It is not the fault of the Opposition that this Bill has come down to the House so late in the Session. We are not masters of the time of the House, and the Government might have managed to bring the Bill on earlier in the Session. The Home Secretary says that there are very few points of substance left to be discussed, but it must be remembered that this is a very important Bill. It has to do with the liberties of the subject, and there are, I submit, a great many points worthy of discussion in the House if we are to try to make it as good a Bill as possible. Yet, here we are solemnly asked to dispose in one sitting of a Bill of seventy Clauses. I wish to point out to the Home Secretary that there are certain Amendments on the Order Paper which we regard as important. We cannot at the present time tell whether they are going to be jumped over or not under the process of Closure which the Home Secretary has adopted.
1 A.M. In these circumstances I should like to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman could not give us some indication as to the Amendments that he is willing, after consultation with us, should be discussed. As my hon. Friend behind me (Mr. H. Terrell) said, with one exception every Amendment that has not been closured since a certain period of the evening has been an Amendment which the Home Secretary has moved himself or of which he had approved. There are certain Amendments of substance which do require a good deal of discussion, and if the Home Secretary would indicate that he would to-night go down only as far as a certain Clause in the Bill, then we might have another day to finish the discussion. I do not think that is too much to ask, and I believe if such a course is adopted it will be in the interests of the Bill. I appeal to the Home Secretary not to rush the Bill for the sake of the honour and glory of getting it through at a single sitting. Hon. Members opposite—I should be the last to wish to complain of it—took up a great deal of the time before dinner. No doubt the subject matter of the Clauses with which they dealt was very important, but the fact remains that very few Members on this side of the House had a chance to get a look-in in the Debate. Hon. Friends behind me had various important Amendments on the Paper which they wished to move, but the Home Secretary became impatient, and closured the whole Clause. That was not very fair to some of my hon. Friends behind me, and I, as a supporter of this Bill, and hoping it will get into law, beg the Home Secretary not to try to attempt to rush it and to take the whole Bill to-night, but to indicate what he thinks is a reasonable proposition as to what proportion he proposes to take tonight, and what we may discuss on another day.I have had so much support on this Bill from the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, from the hon. Gentleman behind him who moved this Motion, and from other hon. Gentlemen opposite, that I feel most reluctant to seem to be unduly oppressive in my demands on the time of the House, but when the hon. Member and the Noble Lord speak of an arrangement, they forget that my hon. Friend who sits behind me (Mr. Wedgwood), and who has taken the greatest part in opposing this Bill, is not prepared to make any sort of arrange- ment of any kind. In view of what has been said—and I recognise the force of the appeal that has been made—if we went this morning to the end of Part I—that is to Clause 19—and then took the remaining Clauses of the Bill to-morrow after Eleven, then I think that would be a reasonable division of the Bill, and I hope it will be acceptable to my hon. Friends, to the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University, and his hon. Friends.
I hope that the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme will accept this arrangement. It is a very reasonable proposal on the part of the right hon. Gentleman, and I trust the hon. Member will accept it.
So far as I am concerned, it seems to be quite a reasonable proposal.
The only thing is that the only two subjects which I wish to debate come before this second part. One is on Clause 6, which deals with the question of the parental veto on sending children to institutions, and the other is on Clause 11, as to whether these orders should be permanent, or should last only for the year, and that after the year is over the inmates are to be free, so that they can go if they like. Those two points seem to me to be the most important things, from my point of view, as affecting the liberty of the subject, and yet they are to be discussed in the middle of the night, in this way! The remainder of the Bill deals with the constitution of the authorities, and with matters of that sort, which do not interest me materially, and no doubt they will be disposed of on a Friday afternoon. I should regret very much, however, if those other two points were discussed at this time. I am quite certain they are the questions in which people outside take the greatest interest, but I am quite prepared to sit up, if hon. Members opposite are prepared to sit up and finish these Clauses, only I do not see much bargain in the case, and I do not see how we can possibly get through these Clauses before six in the morning.
I am quite ready to withdraw the Motion, on one condition— namely, that the right hon. Gentleman will give me an informal undertaking that he will not move the closure more than is absolutely necessary —[HON. MEMBERS: "No"]—as, in that case, I certainly shall persist in my Motion.
I shall be reasonable.
If the right hon. Gentleman tells us he is going on to Clause (19), and is going to move the closure, and to put two or three Clauses at the same time, I shall certainly stick to my Motion.
I can assure the hon. Member that I certainly would not presume to ask Mr. Speaker to allow me to move the closure, or put the question to him, unless I had been, personally, through every individual Amendment. No Amendments were passed over last night which had not either been dealt with, in principle, before, or were really material ones. I can assure hon. Members that that has been literally the case, in regard to all the Amendments which have been passed over. The Amendment of the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University, which was an important one, in Clause (5) should be discussed on Clause (6), and we hope to discuss it now.
It must be understood that there is no bargain, and that I am not bound not to move my Amendments.
The real question is whether what we are doing now can improve this Bill. I will not keep the House one minute, but I do submit that we arc not doing good work at this time of night. We are debating a very important question—and we have a lot more important questions before us—and if we get Clause (19) to-night, this House will not be doing good work as a revising body at all. We have very big and important matters before us, and the Government ought to give us a morning sitting to deal with them.
May I ask if it would be possible to come to an understanding by which we could adjourn earlier to-night, guaranteeing that the Bill should go through on Friday at a reasonable hour?
I am quite prepared to do that.
With a view to getting this Bill through, we might take it on Friday, as that day, which was given to the consideration of the Marconi Committee, is now free. But if we take part of it to-morrow evening, and finish it on Friday, we should get through the Bill. But there are things of such importance that they do require very careful consideration at a reasonable hour of the day
I may only speak by the indulgence of the House, but I hope my hon. Friend will not press the Motion for the Adjournment. Though I do not think the Home Secretary has made a very generous offer, I think it would be unreasonable to press him much further. I understand that we shall adjourn, making the Debate as short as we reasonably can, at Clause (19), and that the rest of the Bill will be taken to-morrow.
After the last statement made by the right hon. Gentleman, I am perfectly willing not to move my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move in paragraph (a), after the word "consent" ["made without the consent"] to insert the words "in writing."
I accept the Amendment.
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move in paragraph (a) to leave out the words "unless in the opinion of the judicial authority such consent is unreasonably withheld," and to insert instead thereof the words "unless it is proved to the satisfaction of the judicial authority that the parent or guardian is unable or unwilling to make suitable provision for the care of the defective."
My primary object in making this change is in order to throw the onus of proof upon the petitioner, instead of leaving it upon the parent. I frankly confess to the House that, although my officers and my hon. Friends and I have given a very great deal of care to these words, we are not particularly satisfied with them. They do effect their primary object, but they are open to the objection that the parents or guardians might profess themselves able or willing to make suitable care or suitable provision for the care of the defective, and that then there would be no guarantee that such suitable care or suitable provision would be actually forthcoming. The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University has an Amendment down, which is printed as referring to Clause 5, but which should be Clause 6. He proposes to insert at the end of paragraph (a) of Sub-section (3) of Clause 6, after "withheld," the words, "Provided that such consent shall not be deemed to be unreasonably withheld if the judicial authority is satisfied that the parent or guardian in good faith desires the well-being of the defective person." That again, if I may say so, errs, like my own Amendment, in not giving any security that the parent or guardian is capable of carrying out his intention in the interest of the defective. I will formally move my Amendment and I shall keep a perfectly open mind as to what hon. Members suggest as an alternative or better form of words.I hope the Home Secretary will not press these words, but that he will keep the words as they stand in the Bill and accept the Amendment of the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University. The effect of altering the words as they stand in the Bill is this. That there is one thing and one thing only required by these new words, namely, proof that the parent or guardian is unable or unwilling to make suitable provision for the defective. These are words of limitation, and, to my mind, it is much more satisfactory to leave the words which are in the Bill because they are much wider words—"unless in the opinion of the judicial authority such consent is unreasonably withheld." That may be for various reasons. You have only to consider whether the consent has been properly given or improperly withheld, and there, is the end of the proviso. Various considerations may arise as to whether or not that consent ought to be given or has been unreasonably withheld, but these new words limit the whole question to whether or not suitable provision is made or will be made for the care of the defective. That may be promised, but never carried out, as the Under-Secretary himself allowed, and the reason I object to the new words is that I do not want the only question to arise to be whether suitable provision is offered or undertaken on behalf of the defective.
I want a much wider basis to be maintained—namely, that the judicial authority should consider all the various grounds that may make that consent a good consent or an unreasonable consent, and act accordingly. In the words of the Noble Lord, "provided that such consent shall not be deemed to be unreasonably-withheld if the judicial authority is satisfied that the parent or guardian in good faith desires the well-being of the defective person," he ensures something like good faith on the part of the parent or guardian, and that is really all the Home Secretary is looking for. I remember this question was very carefully considered previously, and I do not really see any good ground for altering it. I want the judicial authority to have as wide a range for considering the question of consent in all its bearing as possible, and therefore the words in the Bill are happier than the words proposed by the Home Secretary, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will leave the Bill as it is, subject to accepting the Amendment of the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University.I do not think the words in the Bill very happy or calculated to have the result which is desired. What is meant by the words in the Bill as originally framed—"unless in the opinion of the judicial authority such consent is unreasonably withheld "—it is very difficult to say. We intend to provide for a case that often happens of parents who have a defective child and who use that child as a drudge. We want to protect that child. The parent in that case would not consent, but how could it be proved that the consent was unreasonably withheld? That would be impossible under the ordinary practice to satisfy a Court as to that. Then as to the words the Home Secretary proposes to introduce, I think they fall short of what is desired to be accomplished. May I ask the House, because this is a very important matter, to read the Clause as in the original Bill, and as it is now proposed to be Amended—"Where the petition was not presented by the parent or guardian the Order shall not be made without the consent of the parent or guardian." That gives the parent or guardian an absolute veto on the making of the Order. It is proposed to limit that veto by the Amendment and the way in which it is proposed to limit it is by saying that that veto shall not be absolute if it is proved to the satisfaction of the judicial authority that the parent or guardian is unable or unwilling to make suitable provision for the case of the defective. That only deals with the ability or willingness of the guardian or parent to make provision.
Take the case, which frequently happens, of a parent, a mother, who has a, small income, lives in a home, has a defective child and uses it as a drudge. She would be able to show that she was able to make suitable provision for the child. She would say she was willing for the child to live in the house, and how could you say: "How do we know that you will take proper and suitable care of the child, and will not use it as a drudge?" That would be impossible. The mother would say: "I have the means and am willing to make provision for the child," and the Court would have to say that the veto was absolute. I venture to suggest to the Home Secretary that if at the end he would add the words: "and that the defective would be adequately attended and cared for "that would leave the situation better. The Clause would then declare that the Order shall not be made without the consent of the parent or guardian, but the consent of the parent or guardian shall not be required if it is proved that the parent or guardian is unable to maintain the child or unless it is proved that the defective will be adequately and properly cared for. That is exactly what we want to provide for. We want to limit the veto of the parent in two respects, first by making him show that he is able and willing to maintain the child and, secondly, by satisfying the Court that the child will be adequately and properly, cared for. This is a very clumsy Clause, I agree, because you get a negative and then an exception to the negative, but if you read the Clause, adding the words I have suggested, I think the House will see it meets the case in those two respects. I have considered the drafting, and I think if you will simply add these words to the Amendment, and then read the whole Clause with the Amendment and these words together, you will find that it will have the effect which I have suggested, and, if so, I would venture to ask the Home Secretary to add these words to the Amendment, which would then carry out what I believe is the, intention of the House, and give adequate protection to a defective child.I hope the Home Secretary will not listen to the blandishments of the hon. Member opposite, and accept his Amendment, or in any way move in that direction. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will withdraw his Amendment and accept the Amendment moved by the Noble Lord opposite. It seems to me the best form of words. If the right hon. Gentleman insists on his Amendment. I propose to leave out "unable or." I have the strongest possible objection to the Amendment, which, as it stands, merely means that if a person is poor his veto is to have no effect at all whatever, and only the veto of the fairly-well-to-do middle-class people will be considered. It seems to me that if we were to have the Amendment of the Noble Lord opposite, although it does not do everything, and still leaves the onus of proving good faith upon the parent or guardian, it gives much more safeguard to the right of parental veto than the Amendment of the Home Secretary. I have myself got down an Amendment which I think the best of all, but I do not propose to move it. My Amendment is to leave out "unless in the opinion of the judicial authority such consent is unreasonably withheld; and'' and to insert "the parent or guardian has been convicted of an offence under the Children's Act, or under any of the Acts for the prevention of cruelty to children." That seems to me to be far and away the best safeguard for parents. If parents have done something wrong and have been convicted, then by all means let them lose their parental rights, but, if they have not done anything wrong, I contend that the right of the parent to say whether his child should go to one of these institutions or not ought not to be tampered with. But I recognise that, being in the small minority to which the Home Secretary referred, I have no right to get an Amendment accepted. The Noble Lord opposite, however, does represent a considerable party, and if his Amendment, which does go rather further than the Home Secretary's, and does, at the same time, safeguard the interests of the parents, were carried, I think we might get on to the next Amendment and go ahead.
I confess to thinking that the Amendment of the Home Secretary, as it stands, would not be an improvement to the Bill, and it would be better to keep the Bill in its original form than accept the Amendment. But, perhaps, it would be convenient to state the point of substance at issue. The Bill as it stands is ambiguous. It does not quite definitely say what would be deemed to be unreasonable refusal of consent, and there are two classes of refusal, one of which I think ought to be classed as unreasonable and the other ought not to be so classed. There is the indifferent parent, and the grossly negligent or cruel parent, or the parent who has become so weary by the infirmity of the child that no proper effort is made to look after the child. I have heard of the case of a child who was tied up by a leg. That is the sort of case in which a parent ought not to refuse consent to the child being taken elsewhere where it would be well treated. But there is another class of case where the parent is often really passionately attached to the feeble-minded child. We must not forget what has been frequently pointed out by great writers, that an infirm or feebleminded child often excites more affection than a child that is sound, and that is the sort of sentiment which has not always received the respect which often from the mere point of view of health it ought to receive.
There is a tendency to think that a well-managed asylum with proper nurses and proper medical attention is more important to a child than an affectionate parent. I am sure that is profoundly untrue, even from the point of view of health, and it is extraordinarily cruel. It is hardly possible to overstate the cruelty that might be inflicted if a doctor or magistrate, or cranks about this thing, were to take away from an affectionate parent a feeble-minded child which a parent loved to have at home by him or her, and loved to look after. I do not want at all to excite class prejudices, but it is a simple fact that poor people are very defenceless in these matters. One does not suppose there would not be a desire to treat them fairly, but they do not know how to work the law in their own interest. They do not understand how it is done. They are perfectly defenceless before an authority who says, "you must do this," or "you must do that," and they cannot help themselves in the presence of the authority. I think we ought most scrupulously to guard against such a danger. I think there are two ways, but I do not think you could possibly guard against it if you accept the view contained in the Home Secretary's Amendment and also contained in the proposal of my hon. Friend that ability to provide for the child should be a necessary qualification, because the moment you put in this the question arises: What is the suitable provision which the parent ought to be able to make? It leaves room for the discretion of the doctor or magistrate, or both, "which might lead to the very kind of oppressive treatment I am anxious to stop. If you make the rule that an affectionate parent is not to be interfered with, such an affectionate parent will not wish to keep the child in misery when the child can manifestly be much better treated in an asylum. The affection of a parent is the safeguard where suitable provision cannot be made that the child will be handed over, but unless you make the character of the parent and not the resources of the parent the test your Bill is in my view defective. I think my object might be reached in two ways. One is the way I propose in my Amendment on the Paper, but which should be put in a slightly different form because you do not need the proviso, namely: "Such consent shall not be deemed to be unreasonably withheld if the judicial authority is satisfied that the parent or guardian in good faith desires the well-being of the defective person." Or you might do it by amending the Home Secretary's Amendment by leaving out the words "unable or unwilling to make suitable provision for the care" and adding instead thereof "is culpably indifferent to the well-being."Will you move that Amendment?
I conclude, as a matter of form, by moving that Amendment. I do not wish to take up time in discussing both Amendments if the Home Secretary would be good enough to say that he would consider either of them. On reflection, I would prefer this last form of words. It would make the Clause read, "unless it is proved to the satisfaction of the judicial authority that the parent or guardian is culpably indifferent to the well-being of the defective." I need not say I do not attach any special importance to the particular words, but the point is I am anxious to make the character of the parent the test, and that the parent who is really doing the best for his child should be allowed an absolute veto, and that a negligent, cruel, or drunken parent, or one who is not doing his best for the child should not be allowed an absolute veto. In order to bring the matter to an orderly conclusion I beg to move the Amendment to the Amendment which I have read out, namely, to leave out "unable or unwilling to make suitable provision for the care," and to insert "is culpably indifferent to the well-being."
I am going to make a suggestion if I may be allowed to do so, before the question on the Noble Lord's Amendment is put from the Chair. As I expected would be the case, I have had considerable assistance from speeches which have been made with regard to this Amendment, and it appears to me, on reflection, that on the whole I should do better to keep a modified form of the words as they now stand in the Bill, and not move to leave out those words in order to substitute my own words. With the consent of the House I would rather the Clause should read as follows:—"Unless it is proved to the satisfaction of the judicial authority that such consent is unreasonably withheld, or that the parent or guardian cannot be found." If the House agrees to put in those words it would meet the wishes of my hon. Friend (Mr. Wedgwood), who desires in the first instance that the onus of proof should be put on the petitioner. We could then discuss whether, by taking the Amendment of the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University, or some other Amendment, we could define what is unreasonable. Therefore, I beg to ask leave to withdraw my original Amendment and to leave out the words as before, but to substitute "it is proved to the satisfaction of the judicial authority that such consent is unreasonably withheld, or that the parent or guardian cannot be found." I therefore move to leave out the words from "unless" to "and" ["unless in the opinion of the judicial authority such consent is unreasonably withheld, and."]
Question, "That the words proposed to-be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
I now beg to move to leave out the words "in the opinion of the judicial authority such consent is unreasonably withheld; and," and to insert instead thereof the words, "it is proved to the satisfaction of the judicial authority that such consent is unreasonably withheld or that the parent or guardian cannot be found."
I do not quite understand where we are. If these words are put in then I think we must have the Amendment suggested by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University, because without it the Bill, in my opinion, would be no better than it was before, and I should have to oppose my right hon. Friend's Amendment. At present we have had no assurance that we shall have some such words as the Noble Lord has suggested, and as the matter has been shifted about so often I should like to know definitely what we are going to get before we vote to put in the words now moved lay the Secretary of State.
I would suggest that it would be in order to move my Noble Friend's words as a proviso.
Yes, but if the words be not accepted by the Government they will not go in the Bill. The present words of the Home Secretary are not anything like so good as the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman had on the Paper.
If my hon. Friend wishes to have an assurance I can give it him. If the Noble Lord agrees, the following words can be added to the Amendment: "Consent shall not be deemed to be unreasonably withheld if withheld with the bonâ fide intention of benefiting the defective."
I must confess that it is rather late at night to attempt to appreciate the exact force of the words, but on the face of it the Amendment does make a decided improvement in the Bill, and I think I see no reason for resisting it.
I will move after the words last proposed to add the words "but consent shall not be deemed to be unreasonably withheld if withheld with the bonâ fide intention of benefiting the defective." I think that fairly carries out the purpose of the Noble Lord.
Is "intention" better than "desire"?
I think my hon. Friend will find the form of words satisfactory. I think I had better move the whole words in an inclusive form as follows: After "unless" to insert "it is proved to the satisfaction of the judicial authority that such consent is unreasonably withheld, or that the parent or guardian cannot be found, but consent shall not be deemed to be unreasonably withheld if withheld with the bonâ fide intention of benefitting the defective."
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Clause 7 (Variation Of Orders)
(1) Where an order has been made that a defective be placed under guardianship the judicial authority which made the order, or any other judicial authority, or, where the original order was not made by a judicial authority, any judicial authority may, on application being made for the purpose by the guardian or by the Board or by the local authority, and on being satisfied that the case is or has become one unsuitable for guardianship, order that the defective be sent to an institution.
(2) A person appointed to be guardian of a defective may, on the application of the local authority or of the Board or of any other person who appears to be interested, be removed from his office by any such judicial authority as aforesaid, and where a person appointed to be guardian of a defective dies, or resigns his office, or is removed from his office, such judicial authority as aforesaid may, on the like application, appoint a suitable person to act in his stead.
(3) An order under this Section shall not be made without giving to the relative or other person who presented the original petition and to the local authority an opportunity of being heard.
I beg to move, to insert, at the end of the Clause the following Sub-section:—
I want to add this fresh Sub-section (4) to this Clause, which deals with variation of orders, that is to say, the judicial authority can vary the orders. This new Sub-clause is really a complement to the parental control in the preceding Clause, and I am particularly anxious that this should be added, so that, if the parents change their minds, or more particularly if their children are being ill-treated in these homes, they will have the power of withdrawing them from the homes, so that they will not be committed, at the age of five, six or seven years, to be kept there until they are twenty-one. Under this, if the parents think their children are being ill-treated, and if the parents themselves are decent parents, and fit and proper parents, they will have an opportunity of getting these children back. If the House gives the parents this power, they will be more ready to send the children to the homes, in the first place, and if the homes are decently carried on, to keep them there. If the parents have the right of taking back their children, you will find that these homes will be carried on upon much more humane and satisfactory lines. The managers of these institutions will do their best for the children, if they feel that the parents can take them away if they are badly treated, or do not get on, or are unhappy. Therefore, I hope this Amendment may go in, and that we may complete the parental control which we have given earlier in the Bill, by giving the same parents the right to reverse their consent if at any time they find their children unhappy or ill-treated."(4) Any order made under the preceding Sections shall cease to have effect and be deemed to be cancelled if the parents or guardians of the person with respect to whom the order was made withdraw in writing their consent to such order, unless the board can show to the satisfaction of the judicial authority that the parents or guardians are not fit and proper persons to have charge of the defective."
I beg to second the Amendment.
I hope my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. Under Clause 11 there is very ample power of discharge.
Not with the consent of the parents.
Oh, yes. My hon. Friend has not really quite mastered either the intention or the actual machinery of the Bill. You can hardly allow a parent, who has given his consent, to cancel his consent at any moment, and to withdraw the child, absolutely at his own discretion. If he were to do that this would be a measure entirely different from the present Bill. We pre-suppose here that, since a parent has given his or her consent, and the child has entered an institution, that it should be in the institution, unless it is discharged by the representatives of the Board of Control, by the visitors, or by the cancellation of an Order. To try to work the Bill upon a compulsory basis, and, at the same time, to allow a parent, any day, and every day, to withdraw the child and put it back again, would be to render such working impossible. My hon. Friend will see that, in Clause 11 at the end of the first year, the parent can withdraw the child if the Board of Control are satisfied that the parent has the means of looking after it.
That is only in the case of the parents of a child under age.
Not in Clause 11. Clause 12 deals with a child under age. In Clause 11 there is ample power in the first year, the second year, or at any time, and the parent of a child in an institution has only to write to the Board of Control and say: "My circumstances are such that I have the means to look after it," and the Board of Control would instantly consider the case, and release the child. But that is not quite the same thing as to ask that the parent who may be a fighting parent, shall be allowed the right, every week, to withdraw the child, and then to put it back again. That would render the whole thing unworkable. I hope the hon. Gentleman will be satisfied after my explanation.
No, I shall not be satisfied. This seems to me to be the vital part of the Bill. Clause 11 says nothing about the parent, and gives him no rights. There is nothing in it to say that the parent has any right to reclaim the child, once the child has gone to the institution—
Clause 12.
Clause 12 deals with where a parent voluntarily sends a child. Clause 11 deals with cases where a judicial authority sends a child to an institution. It is with such cases where the judicial authority—
My hon. Friend is not correct. Clause 12 provides that until the visitors do not discharge the defective, there comes in the appeal above, under which the Board of Control may consider the appeal.
But the appeal to the Board is after the Report has been made by the medical officer of the institution.
The appeal will be heard.
The whole point is that, in Clause 11, the only thing that is taken into consideration is whether the child is or is not defective, and not whether the parent wishes him back or not. What is considered, in Clause 11, is the re-examination of the state of health of the defective. The parents may say a defective is not a defective, and they may appeal on that line, but they cannot appeal and say, "now we are able to look after the child; previously we were not able to look after the child. We are afraid it is being unkindly treated, and we want it at home, to treat it kindly." That does not come in at all. The only thing considered is the state of mental health of the child itself, and if it is unhappy, its state of mental health is not likely to be improved. Just as you have given the parent the right to say whether or not the child should be sent to these places, so, on absolutely analogous lines, you ought to give him the right to withdraw his child, if he thinks it is not being kindly treated. Every human right which gives the parent the right of veto on having his children sent away at first is every bit as strong in favour of giving him the right to recover his children in later years. I hope some other hon. Members will vote for this Amendment, as well as myself. I certainly shall go to a Division. I regard this as one of the most important parts of the Bill, and by passing this Amendment you will take away one of the things that will be most complained of in after years, and which will give rise to most dis-
Division No. 218.]
| AYES.
| [1.52 a.m.
|
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Goldsmith, Frank | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Greene, Walter Raymond | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hogge, James Myles | |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Horner, Andrew Long | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Martin. |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Dawes, James Arthur | Hazleton, Richard |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Delany, William | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Adamson, William | Devlin, Joseph | Higham, John Sharp |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Dickinson, W. H. | Hills, John Waller |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Doris, William | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. |
| Arnold, Sydney | Duffy, William J. | Hodge, John |
| Baird, J. L. | Duncan, C. (Barrow-In-Furness) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |
| Barnston, Harry | Duncan, J. Hastings, (Yorks, Otley) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Barton, William | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Jessel, Captain H. M. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Elverston, Sir Harold | John, Edward Thomas |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Jones, Henry Kaydn (Merioneth) |
| Boland, John Pius | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexlord, N.) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Brace, William | Ffrench, Peter | Joyce, Michael |
| Brady, P. J. | Field, William | Keating, Matthew |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Kelly, Edward |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Fitzgibbon, John | Kilbride, Denis |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Flavin, Michael Joseph | King, J. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Gibbs, G. A. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Gilmour. Captain John | Lardner, James C. R. |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Goldstone, Frank | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Lewisharn, Viscount |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Griffith, Ellis J. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Clough, William | Gulland, John William | Lurdon, Thomas |
| Clynes, John R. | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Lynch. A. A. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hackett, John | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | McGhee, Richard |
| Cullinan, John | Harcourt. Robert V. (Montrose) | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds. West) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Hayden, John Patrick | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hayward, Evan | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
satisfaction to people who come afterwards.
Might I point out that there is a still easier way of accomplishing this object? Under Clause 24 "any Commissioner shall have power to discharge at any time any person detained in a certified institution or certified house, or under guardianship under this Act," so that if a child were unkindly treated, all a parent would have to do would be to persuade one of these Commissioners—and some of them are women—to discharge the child, and that Commissioner would have power to do it. That would be a simpler way than-under Clause 11. It is difficult enough to get them in the home, as the machinery of the Bill is very cumbersome, but they can get out by any one Commissioner visiting-one of the institutions, and if he finds that the child is neglected, that Commissioner can discharge it.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 18; Noes, 166.
| Meagher, Michael | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Millar, James Duncan | Reddy, Michael | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Molloy, M. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Morgan, George Hay | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Morrell, Philip | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Muldoon, John | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Munro, R. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Nolan, Joseph | Robinson, Sidney | Webb, H. |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Rowlands, James | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Dowd, John | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) | Wiles, Thomas |
| O'Grady, James | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| O'Malley, William | Sanderson, Lancelot | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Scanlan, Thomas | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| O'Shee, James John | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Mr. G. Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Parry, Thomas H. | Sheehy, David | |
| Peto, Basil Edward | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Stewart, Gershom |
Clause 8 (Procedure In Cases Of Persons Guilty Of Offences, Etc)
(1) On the conviction by a court of competent jurisdiction of any person of any offence punishable with penal servitude or imprisonment, or on a child brought before a court under section fifty-eight of the Children Act, 1908, being found liable to be sent to an industrial school, the court, if satisfied on medical evidence that, he is a defective within the meaning of this Act, may either—
Provided that, if the court is a court of summary jurisdiction and the case is one which the court "has power to deal with summarily, the court, if it finds that the charge is proved, may give such directions or make such order as aforesaid without proceeding to a conviction, and such a person shall for the purposes of this Act be deemed to be a person found guilty of an offence.
(2) The court may act either on the evidence given during the trial, or may call for further medical or other evidence.
(3) Where the court so directs a petition to be presented against a person, it may order him to be detained in an institution for defectives or in a place of safety for such time as is required for the presentation of the petition.
(4) Where it appears to any court of summary jurisdiction by which a person charged with an offence is remanded or committed for trial that such person is a defective, the court may order that pending the further hearing or trial he shall be detained in an institution for defectives, or be placed under the guardianship of any person on that person entering into a recognisance for his appearance.
(5) Where it appears to the police authority that any person charged with an offence is a defective, they shall communicate with the local authority, and it shall be the duty of the police authority to bring before the court such evidence as to his mental condition as may be available:
Provided that where it is intended to bring such evidence before the court the police authority shall give notice of the intention to the person charged, and to his parent or guardian, if known.
I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name—to leave out the word "medical" ["if satisfied on medical evidence"] and to insert instead thereof the word "the."
2.0 A.M. The effect of this Amendment would be that instead of the Clause reading "the Court if satisfied on medical evidence" would read "the Court if satisfied on the evidence of two medical practitioners." I should like to point out to the House that under this Clause as it stands anyone who is brought up before a Court of competent jurisdiction or a child brought before the Court under Section 58 of the Children Act, 1908, can be sent to a home for mental defectives on the evidence of one medical officer only. This is an Amendment desired by the London County Council. The object of the Amendment is to secure that no one can be dealt with as a defective except on the certificates of two medical men. Nowhere else in the Bill as it stands can a person be dealt with as a defective on the evidence of one medical man only. There is no difference "between this Clause and the other Clauses so far as principle is concerned. The only way in which it does differ is that in this case the medical evidence is given not in writing but orally. I cannot see that this affords any ground for relying on the evidence of one medical man only, and I therefore hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept both this Amendment and the consequential Amendment which I shall move afterwards if he accepts this one. I hope that in his answer the right hon. Gentleman will give us his reason why in this Clause, and this Clause only, one medical man is deemed sufficient.I beg to second the Amendment.
The hon. Member apprehends, as I gather from his speech, that in the words of the Clause as they now stand the evidence of one medical man is contemplated under the Bill. That is really not so. In this case all that the Bill does is to leave to the Court the decision as to the quantity of evidence which the Court thinks right in order to come to a decision. We do not propose to lay down to a Court what is the amount of evidence which should be taken in order to establish a fact. The conditions here are not the same as in an ordinary case of proceeding before an authority under the Act. This relates to a Court of competent jurisdiction which is already engaged in trying the defective on some other matter, and, a question of fact arising before the Court, the Court has to be convinced on the question of fact; but we leave the Court to determine the amount of evidence that is necessary. It is quite true the Court may be satisfied with the evidence of one medical man, but it is much more likely that the Court will require the evidence of two, three, or four medical men.
I should like to point out what really happens in this case. In these industrial school cases a large number of children are had up before the police magistrates, and in London an officer of the county council advises the magistrate as to what industrial school the child ought to be sent, and the child is sent and kept there until sixteen years of age. You propose in this Bill that in certain cases that child should be sent to a home for defectives instead of to an industrial school. That is a very important change, and in future probably an officer from the county council—a medical officer—would attend and give evidence before the police magistrate. We know perfectly well that in a Police Court there are a number of cases to be dealt with and proper attention cannot be given to each individual case. There is every probability that the magistrate will agree with the medical evidence given before him. I really think that before we send a boy who has committed some small offence to a home for idiots and imbeciles, instead of sending him to an industrial school, where he would receive proper industrial training and a good school education, we ought to put in every safeguard in this Bill that is possible. This is a safeguard which is deemed to be necessary by the largest local authority in the country, the London County Council, who deal with an enormous number of industrial school cases every year, and who have put into force the Defective Schools Act more than any other authority. They have got the largest experience, and if they deem it necessary, I cannot see any reason why the right hon. Gentleman should not accept this Amendment.
I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will accept this Amendment. It is surely of importance that an authority to whose care these children are to be committed should, through their medical officer, have some voice in determining whether a child is suitable for sending to one of the institutions under their control, and it would be only bringing this Clause into conformity with other Clauses in the Bill. I admit quite frankly that I understood the concession had been granted in this Clause as in others, and it was admitted by the right hon. Gentleman that it was desirable in view of some public fears that had been engendered by this Bill to give, in other Clauses, the right of calling the evidence of a second medical practitioner if only to satisfy some feel- ing in the public mind. I do think that if the right hon. Gentleman were to accept this Amendment it would tend to allay somewhat the fears that have been raised in certain quarters as to whether there will not be an attempt made to send children unnecessarily to institutions. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to bring this
Division No. 219.]
| AYES.
| [2.9 a.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Dowd, John |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Grady, James |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Hackett, John | O'Malley, William |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Shee, James John |
| Barton, William | Hayden, John Patrick | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hazleton, Richard | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Henry, Sir Charles | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Higham, John Sharp | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Boland, John Pius | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Price-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Reddy, Michael |
| Brace, William | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Bryce, John Annan | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Hey wood) | Joyce, Michael | Robinson, Sidney |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Keating, Matthew | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kelly, Edward | Rowlands, James |
| Clough, William | Kilbride, Denis | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | King, Joseph | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Cullinan, John | Lardner, James C. R. | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lundon, Thomas | Sheehy, David |
| Delany, William | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | McGhee, Richard | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Doris, William | Macpherson, James Ian | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Duffy, William J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Tennant, Harold John |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Meagher, Michael | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Webb, H. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Millar, James Duncan | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Molloy, Michael | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Morgan, George Hay | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morrell, Philip | Wiles, Thomas |
| Field, William | Muldoon, John | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Munro, Robert | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nolan, Joseph | |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | O'Connor, John (Kildare) | |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Doherty, Philip |
NOES.
| ||
| Adamson, William | Gibbs, George Abraham | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Gilmour, Captain John | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Greene, Walter Raymond | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Barnston, Harry | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Hills, John Waller | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hodge, John | Stewart, Gershom |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hogge, James Myles | Sutherland, John E. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Horner, Andrew Long | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | John, Edward Thomas | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Clynes, John R. | Lewisham, Viscount | |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Goldsmith and Mr. Goldstone. |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Martin, Joseph | |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | |
Clause into conformity with other Clauses and to accept the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman.
Question put, "That the word 'medical' stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 143, Noes, 37.
rose in his place and] claimed to move "That the Question be now put that the words of the Bill to the word "unless" in Clause (11) ['An order made under this Act that a defective be sent to an institution or placed under guardianship shall expire at the end of one year from its date, unless continued
Division No. 220.]
| AYES.
| [2.17 a.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Goldstone. Frank | O'Grady, James |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Malley, William |
| Adamson, William | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Shee, James John |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles p. (Stroud) | Hackett, John | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Barton, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hayden, John Patrick | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Hazleton, Richard | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Henry, Sir Charles | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Higham, John Sharp | Reddy, Michael |
| Boland, John Pius | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Brace, William | John, Edward Thomas | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Joyce, Michael | Rowlands, James |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Keating, Matthew | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Kelly, Edward | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kilbride, Denis | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Clough, William | King, Joseph | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Clynes, John R. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Sheehy, David |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lardner, James C. R. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Levy, Sir Maurice | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Cullinan, John | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Stewart, Gershom |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Lundon, Thomas | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lynch, A. A. | Sutherland, John E. |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Delany, William | McGhee, Richard | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Macpherson, James Ian | Tennant, Harold John |
| Dickinson, W. H. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Doris, William | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Duffy, William J. | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks. Otley) | Meagher, Michael | Webb. H. |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Millar, James Duncan | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Molloy, Michael | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexlord, N.) | Morgan, George Hay | Wiles, Thomas |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Morell, Philip | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Muldoon, John | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Ffrench, Peter | Munro, Robert | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Field, William | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Nolan, Joseph | |
| Fitzgibbon. John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | O'Dowd, John |
NOES.
| ||
| Baird, J. L. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Greene, W. R. | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Barnston, Harry | Hills, John Waller | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hodge, John | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hogge, James Myles | Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Horner, Andrew Long | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Jessel, Captain H. M. | |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Booth and Mr. Martin. |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. {Honiton) | |
| Goldsmith, Frank | ||
Question, "That the words of the Bill to the word 'unless,' stand part of the Bill," put accordingly, and agreed to.
in manner hereinafter provided'] stand part of the Bill."
Question put, "That the Question be now put, 'That those words stand part of the Bill.'"
The House divided: Ayes, 149; Noes, 25.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (2) after the word "mentioned" ["hereinafter mentioned"] insert the words "and
the means of care and supervision which would be available if the defective were discharged."—[ Mr. Webb.]
Amendment proposed: In Sub-section (2), after the word "in," to omit the words "the interests of the defective," and to insert instead thereof the words "his interests."—[ Mr. Gulland.]
I think this is an Amendment on which we ought to have some explanation.
This is only a drafting Amendment.
Amendment put, and agreed to.
Further Amendment proposed: In Subsection (3), after the word "condition" ["his mental condition"], to insert the words "and the means of care and supervision which would be available if he were discharged."—[ Mr. McKenna.]
I do not think this is a drafting Amendment, and perhaps some explanation might be given.
I am sorry I was absent from the House. I expected another Division to take place. The object of these words is to enable an authority to have regard to the means of livelihood and care which would be able to be given, in order that where the parents should look after the child, so that, in such a case, the authorities should discharge the child. I have put these Amendments down after consultation with my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, and they are intended—I am not sure how they will be received—as a concession to his views. I hope, at ane rate, he will accept the intention as being bonâ-fide in the interests of the defectives.
Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move in Sub-section (3), after the word "defective" ["interests of the defective"], to insert the word "alone."
This Amendment is, I believe, a purely drafting one if the Government's intentions are as stated. In this matter, obviously, what ought to be considered by the authorities are the interests of the defective, and nothing else, I am afraid that the hon. Member for St. Pancras and for Dumbartonshire will be the sort of people who will decide whether these people ought to be let out or not. They are people who are constantly talking of the welfare of society as a whole, and particularly of the future of the race, and they cannot be expected to judge these matters from the point of view of the interests of the defective alone. I am particularly anxious that the only thing to be considered should be the interest of the defective person. If all the Members of the House are thinking of that interest let them have the Amendment in, after "defective" insert "alone" in line eleven. It will then read: "On such reconsideration the visitors shall visit the defective or summon him to attend before them and inquire into his mental condition and into all the circumstances of the case, and if it appears to them that further detention in an institution or under guardianship is no longer required in the interests of the defective alone shall order him to be discharged." Some might think that a person is a bad breeder, that some woman who goes out will have bad babies, and that the race will be injured. That is not what we want the visitors to look after. What we want them to look after is the interest of the defective alone. I move these words, and hope they will be accepted by the hon. Member for St. Pancras, because I am sure the more the public understand that we are moving in the interest of the defective, and not in the interest of eugenics, the better it will be.I beg to second the Amendment.
If the hon. Gentleman presses this, I have no objection. It is in the interests of the defective that the Bill is being passed.
Question, "That the word 'alone' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Could the right hon. Gentleman accept the next Amendment I have on the Paper, to leave out the word "fourteen" ["parent or guardian may within fourteen days after the decision of the visitors appeal to the Board"], and to insert the word "forty"? It is only to give the parents forty days' notice instead of fourteen.
Oh no. Withdraw it.
Very well, I will withdraw that, and go on to the next one —after the word "visitors" ["after the decision of the visitors"], to insert the words "has been communicated to the defective and his parent or guardian." I want to make it read: "Provided that if the visitors do not order his discharge the defective or his parent or guardian may within fourteen days after the decision of the visitors has been communicated to the defective and his parent or guardian appeal to the Board."
I accept that.
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Withdraw the next.
No, the next is rather important. I am only presenting this in the interests of the defectives. Under the Clause the report has to be made by the medical officer of the institution. Many of these institutions will be private places assisted out of the ratepayers' money, and I think it extremely undesirable that the medical officer of such an institution should have the drafting of these reports, so vital to the inmates of these institutions. It seems to me he ought to be the last person to have the drafting of them.
I, therefore, beg to move to leave out the words "the medical officer of the institution" ["shall be a special report as to the mental and bodily condition of the defective made, in the case of a person detained in an institution, by the medical officer of the institution"] and to insert instead thereof the words "a duly qualified practitioner who is not the medical officer of that institution, and who may be selected by the defective or parent or guardian if desired by them." I move that, although I am afraid the Government cannot accept it, as they are bound up with the medical officers of these institutions. But I do hope they will understand the feelings of the parents with regard to these medical officers who may desire to keep these people in the institutions. It is known that even, in the case of lunatic asylums people, who are useful to officials of the asylum are retained longer than they need be. Exactly the same thing applies to mental defectives, because they are more on the border line and so the risk to them is greater. I think, that apart from the question of expense, and it is only the expense which ties the Government down to the medical institutions, an inquiry should be made by an independent medical officer who can act on his own.
I beg to second the Amendment.
These are words, I am afraid, I cannot accept. The provision in the Clause is for "the medical officer of the institution," and "institution" here means art institution run by a local authority. The medical officer is a man who would know most about the defective and he could not by any possible means have any personal interest, in the pecuniary sense, in the person remaining in the institution or being discharged from the institution. He would merely be the servant of the local authority. With regard to the other case of institutions not under the local authorities I would refer the hon. Gentleman to Clause 48, paragraph (d) of the proviso to Sub-section (2) in which it is stated that "a special report under Section 11 of this Act as to the mental and bodily condition of a defective detained in a certified house should not be made by the medical officer of the house or by any medical practitioner directly or indirectly interested in the house." Therefore, where there could be a question of a person interested arising in a case of a special report of this kind we have expressly excluded the medical officer of the house. We have only left the medical officer where he must know more about the person, and only where he could have no interest have we allowed him to remain the authority to sign the report.
Under Clause 37 the local authority may contribute such sums upon such conditions as they think fit towards the establishment of certified institutions or contract with the managers of any certified institutions. It is in these cases that, I think, a danger would occur. As I understand it, when you contract with the managers of such institutions they do not come under the head of certified houses but of certified institutions, and, therefore, come under this Clause, and if the Home Secretary would make an Amendment in Clause 11, "the medical officer of the institution," and would make it quite clear that these institutions, as he said they were, are purely institutions run by local authorities I should be quite satisfied, but it is when these institutions are not run by the local authorities and are arranged for under Clause 37 that there would be a possibility of complaints being made and of friction arising. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could make an Amendment here or in Clause 48 includ- ing approved houses and institutions of that sort.
If the hon. Gentleman would wait until we come to Clause 37 I think I shall be able to show him that he has not read the Clause correctly. His argument would be quite apposite then.
In that case I will withdraw my Amendment here, in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept my next Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: After the word "detained" ["to be detained in an institution or under guardianship"] insert the words "in his own interest."—[ Mr. Wedgwood.]
Clause 13—(Power To Recover Expenses)
(1) Where an order that a defective be sent to an institution or be placed under guardianship has been made under this Act, the judicial authority which made the order or any other judicial authority, or, where the order is not made by a judicial authority, any judicial authority, may, on the application of the petitioner, or of the managers of the institution or the guardian, as the case may be, or of an officer authorised by the local authority, make an order requiring the defective, or any person liable to maintain him, to contribute such sum towards the expenses of his maintenance in the institution or of his guardianship, or, in the event of his death in the institution of his funeral expenses and any charges incidental thereto, including the cost of conveyance to the institution, as, having regard to the ability of the defective or person liable to maintain him, seems reasonable.
(2) Any such order may, on the application of the managers of the institution in which the defective is for the time being detained, or of the guardian, or of an officer authorised by the local authority be enforced against any property of the defective or person liable to maintain him, if made by a judge of county courts, in the same way as if it were a judgment of the county court, and, if made by any other judicial authority, as if it were an order for the payment of a civil debt made by a court of summary jurisdiction.
(3) An order made under this section may be varied or revoked by the judicial authority which made it or any other judicial authority.
(4) Where a defective has been placed by his parent or guardian in an institution or under guardianship any sum which the parent or guardian has agreed to contribute towards the expenses of the maintenance or guardianship of the defective shall be recoverable summarily as a civil, debt.
I beg to move to> leave out the Clause.
This Clause gives power to all these local authorities to recover the expenses of looking after these mentally defective persons by parents or guardians. It is rather undesirable that you should not only take people's children away and keep them against the parents' wishes very often, but that you should charge them with the expense. It is rather adding insult to injury. Education is free in this country, and this matter of looking after these mentally defectives is a form of education, and it does seem to me undesirable that you should make it a charge upon the parents and guardians and should be able to enforce the charge by a court of summary jurisdiction. Of course, in most of the cases no charge would be made at all, and no proceedings could be taken and no proceedings would be likely to result in money being obtained; but that makes it all the more undesirable that you should give to the local authorities the power to collect this money in certain cases. It gives opportunities for favouritism and penalising particular persons. We have seen over and over again the great danger of making heavy claims upon the brothers and sisters of children who are under the charge of guardians and in the workhouse. Many of these claims fall very heavily indeed on young workers under twenty-one years of age, and I think it is very undesirable that you add to the unpopularity of this Bill by making it an engine of distortion very similar to the-claims made in support of parents in workhouses. Hon. Members know perfectly well the bitter feeling often entertained among the working classes towards their parents when they have to go to the workhouse and an order is made against the children to provide for their maintenance. It is one of the principal sources of bitterness in families. Here you are introducing into this Bill for looking after mentally defective persons, the same sort of discord and the same opportunities for the local authority to make a charge of sixpence a week here, and a shilling a week there, and sustain a large expense in collecting money. I believe it is done in the case of the Poor Law so as to make people feel the responsibility of poor relatives, but surely it is not necessary here to make people responsible for sixpence or a shilling a week when we all know how difficult it is to make both ends meet. I certainly do think this Clause, which is new since last time, is most undesirable in the Bill, and if I can get anyone to support me, I shall go into the Lobby against it.Of course, the meaning of this Clause is that if the defective or those liable to maintain him have the ability to maintain him they ought to do so. That seems a reasonable proposition. My hon. Friend has spoken of this Bill as if directed against the poor, and now he says it is directed against people who are not absolutely poor. Why should not the defective, and why should not those who are liable to maintain the defective not contribute towards the expense? The Royal Commission inquired into the matter very carefully, and this is
Division No. 221.]
| AYES.
| [2.50 a.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Doris, William | Jessel, Captain H. M. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Duffy, William J. | John, Edward Thomas |
| Adamson, William | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rust |
| Arnold, Sydney | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Joyce, Michael |
| Baird, J. L. | Elverston, Sir Harold | Keating, Matthew |
| Barnston, Harry | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford. N.) | Kelly, Edward |
| Barton, William | Essex, Sir Richard Walter | King, Joseph |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Ffrench, Peter | Lardner, James C. R. |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Field, William | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert |
| Boland, John Pius | Fitzgibbon, John | Lundon, Thomas |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lynch, A. A. |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Gibbs, G. A. | Macdonald. J. Ramsay (Leicester) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Gilmour, Captain John | McGhee, Richard |
| Brace, William | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Goldsmith, Frank | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Goldstone, Frank | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Greene, W. R. | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs, Spalding) |
| Bryce. J. Annan | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Meagher, Michael |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Gulland, John William | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Hackett, John | Millar, James Duncan |
| Chappie, Dr. William Allen | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Molloy, Michael |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Clough, William | Hayden, John Patrick | Morrell, Philip |
| Clynes, John R. | Hazleton, Richard | Morison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Muldoon, John |
| Cullinan, John | Higham, John Sharp | Munro, Robert |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hogge, James Myles | Nolan, Joseph |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Delany, William | Horner, Andrew Long | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Dowd, John |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Malley, William |
one of their recommendations. It is part of the financial scheme of this Bill, and the local authority and the Treasury look for these contributions.
Because the Royal Commission decided to get all the money they could out of the poor, that does not make it any juster. [HON MEMBERS: "The rich."] This does not apply to the rich. You are going to get all you can out of the poor, and the point is that when you take away children compulsorily this claim becomes not a contribution from the parents, but a tax upon them. I do not think you have any right in the first place to take the children away compulsorily and keep them compulsorily in segregation, but if you do that, you have no right to make parents pay for it. Certainly if any hon. Member will vote with me I shall go into the Lobby against this-Clause.
Question put, That the words, "(1) Where an order that a defective be sent to an institution or be placed under guardianship has been made under this Act, the judicial authority which made the order, or" stand part of the Bill.
The House divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 4.
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Tennant, Harold John |
| O'Shee, James John | Rowlands, James | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Parry, Thomas H. | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Peto, Basil Edward | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Sheehy, David | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Reddy, Michael | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Stewart, Gershom | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | Sutherland, John E. | |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. William Jones and Mr. Webb. |
| Robinson, Sidney | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
NOES.
| ||
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Martin. |
| Hodge, John | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | |
I beg to move to leave out the words "any other judicial authority, or" ["which made the order or any other judicial authority, or"]. I object to any other judicial authority making the order for a contribution than the original judicial authority which made the order that a defective person should go to a home. I hope the Government will accept the Amendment.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I hope my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment. May I point out to him that the judicial authority which made the order was concerned with defectives, but this authority which is going to make the order for a contribution is concerned with the financial means of the defectives. Those are entirely different matters, and I think my hon. Friend will see that the one has no relation to the other in any way whatever. The judicial authority which made the original order might actually be dead or absent from the country when the time came to have an order made for a contribution towards the expenses of maintenance, and in such case great difficulty would be caused. Therefore I think we should do well to leave the wording of the Clause as it now stands.
Amendment put, and negatived.
I beg to move to leave out the words "or any person liable to maintain him" ["make an order requiring the defective, or any person liable to maintain him"], and to insert instead thereof the words, "or his male parent."
As the House will see the object of this is to limit the responsibility to the male parent, I think it would be very unfair if the authorities were able to come down on the mother of an illegitimate child and make her pay 6s. a week for the maintenance of her defective child. Surely it would be sufficient if the local authority were able to get money out of the male parent of a defective without coming down on other members of the family. 3.0 A.M. So, I move to omit these words, and I shall go to a Division on them if I can get anybody to support me. I do not believe that Members of this House in the least desire to make the mother of an illegitimate child, or the struggling brothers and sisters of people such as these, liable to maintain their relations in these homes, but that is what will be done, unless you vote against an Amendment such as this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It seems to me that, at three o'clock in the morning, hon. Members cannot pay any attention to Amendments that are moved. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, Order."] I am perfectly in order, and when I raised this Question I was jeered at by the Irish hon. Members. I am putting a perfectly honest and straightforward point before the House, and because the Irish Members are here to vote down any opponents of the Liberal Government, if they—. [HON. MEMBERS: Order."] Now, as I have been interrupted, let me put this before the House with perfect clearness. If this Clause goes through, as it is, then any relation of these poor people will be liable to be summoned by any judicial authority, exactly as though their relations were in the workhouse. We know perfectly well that this habit of suing impecunious relations of people in the workhouse for maintenance is a very bad thing indeed, and which we want to put a stop to, when those relations are genuinely impecunious, and not parents of these persons. I believe if the—
I beg to move, "That the Question be now put 'That the remainder of the Clause (13) stand part of the Bill.'"
Division No. 222.]
| AYES.
| [3.4 a.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Goldstone, Frank | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Adamson, William | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Dowd, John |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Gulland, John William | O'Malley, William |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Hackett, J. | O'Shee, James John |
| Baird, J. L. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Barton, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hayden, John Patrick | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.) | Hazleton, Richard | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Higham, John Sharp | Reddy, M. |
| Boland, John Pius | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Redmond, John (Waterford) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Howard, John Geoffrey | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Illingworth, Percy H. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Brace, William | John, Edward Thomas | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Brady, P. J. | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Brunner, J. F. L, | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Joyce, Michael | Rowlands, James |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Keating, Matthew | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Kelly, Edward | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kilbride, Denis | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Clough, William | King, J. | Sheehy, David |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lardner, James C. R. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Cullinan, John | Levy, Sir Maurice | Stewart, Gershom |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Srauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lundon, T. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Dawes, J. A. | Lynch, A. A. | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Delany, William | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | McGhee, Richard | Tennant, Harold John |
| Doris, William | Macpherson, James Ian | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Duffy, William J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Meagher, Michael | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Millar, James Duncan | Wiles, Thomas |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Molloy, Michael | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Morgan, George Hay | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morrell, Philip | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Field, William | Muldoon, John | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Munro, R. | |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. William Jones and Mr. H. Webb. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nolan, Joseph | |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
NOES.
| ||
| Barnston, Harry | Greene, W. R. | Martin, J. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hodge, John | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Clynes, John R. | Hogge, James Myles | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Horner, Andrew Long | |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Jessel, Captain H. M. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Goldsmith. |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | |
| Gilmour, Captain John | ||
Question accordingly, "That the remainder of the Clause (13) stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Clause 14—(Provision As To Contribution Orders)
The persons liable to maintain a defective under the age of twenty-one against
Question put, "That the Question, 'That the remainder of the Clause (13) stand part of the Bill,' be now put."
The House divided: Ayes, 144; Noes, 22.
whom an order to contribute towards his maintenance may be made under this Act shall include the step-parent and, in the case of illegitimacy his putative father and, if the judicial authority having cognisance of the case thinks fit, a person other than his putative father cohabiting with his mother: Provided that where a defective is an illegitimate, and an affiliation order for his maintenance has previously been made on the application of his mother under the enactments relating to bastardy, the judicial authority shall not (unless in view of the special circumstances of the case he thinks it desirable) make an order for contribution against the putative father, but may order the whole or any part of the payments accruing due under the affiliation order to be made to the local authority or such other person as may be named in the order, to be applied towards the maintenance of the defective.
I beg to move to leave out the Clause. I am well aware of the fact that this Clause is taken from the Children Act, but at the same time I wish to point out to the House that it was not in the original Bill and was only passed at one of the last meetings of the Grand Committee upstairs, nor was it in the Bill last year. I cannot understand why the step-parent is put in, because he has evidently had no satisfaction in the matter at all and he is made liable for something with which he has had nothing to do whatsoever. It does seem hard upon a woman who is left a widow that she may not get married again because there may be a defective child, and anyone who wishes to marry her may have this liability thrust upon him. Surely that cannot be a good thing. Then as regards the rest of the Clause, proceedings would probably be taken against the putative father if the woman does not pay the sum. I should have thought that that sum was attachable, or that, at all events, the mother would in any case contribute that sum towards the maintenance of the child. As regards the third category, of persons other than the putative father cohabiting with the mother, that has to be proved in a court. I should think it would be a very difficult thing to prove, and therefore unless the Home Secretary can give a very good reason for the retention of the Clause I do not think it can do any good in the Bill, as it would put a hardship on a respectable woman by making her chance of getting married worse than it otherwise would have been.
I beg to second the Amendment. I think the Clause put in upstairs is quite unnecessary, and that it would bring a number of innocent people within the scope of the law.
I am quite ready to meet the substance of the Amendment and to omit the words "the stepparent and." It will then only include the putative father, who is now made liable up to the age of twenty-one, which is quite a proper position, and where the local authority finds a person other than the putative father living with the mother, I think the public should not be put to the expense of the illegitimate child. If this other person is living with her, and perhaps preventing her earning her own living in support of the child, that person should be made liable. I hope the hon. Gentleman will accept that.
I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move that—
I have an Amendment that comes before that. I am asking that the persons already liable to support the defective should not include any relation, male or female, of less than twenty-one years of age or a mother who works for a weekly wage. Surely it is not unreasonable that these people should be excluded. I think the Home Secretary should accept that Amendment. I understand he is going to move the Closure on the rest of the Clauses. Do let us have this to set off against the rest. I only ask that people under twenty-one—
My hon. Friend is in error. No such person could be liable. The only case it is proposed to meet is that of a putative father, who it is not supposed will be under twenty-one years of age. I do not think that will be likely, particularly as mental deficiency will not be proved until the child is three or four years of age. Consequently the parent must be extremely young.
It is not a question of the parent, but of other relations.
They are not liable.
There was a case the other day of a girl made to contribute to the support of her mother in the work-house.
She was not her illegitimate mother.
This Clause does not deal only with the illegitimate. It deals with legitimates as well as illegitimates, only the House seems to have illegitimacy on the brain. I think these people should not be made liable to maintain the defective. I beg to move.
I beg to second the Amendment.
Question, "That the words proposed be there inserted in the Bill," put, and negatived.
I beg to move to leave out the words "the step-parent and" ["shall include the step-parent and"].
Question, "That those words stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
—(Power To Remove To Place Of Safety Pending Presentation Of Petition)
(1) If any officer of the local authority authorised in that behalf or any constable finds neglected, abandoned, or without visible means of support or cruelly treated any person whom he has reasonable cause to believe to be a defective, he may take such person to a place of safety, and such person may be there detained until a petition under this Act can be presented.
(2) If it appears to a justice on information on oath laid by an officer or other person authorised by the local authority that there is reasonable cause to believe that a defective is neglected or cruelly treated in any place within the jurisdiction of the justice, the justice may issue a warrant authorising any constable named therein, accompanied by the medical officer of the local authority or any other duly qualified medical practitioner named in the warrant, to search for such person, and if it is found that he is neglected or cruelly treated, and is defective, to take him to and place him in a place of safety until a petition can be presented under this Act, and any constable authorised by such warrant may enter, and if need be by force, any house, building,. or other place specified in the warrant, and may remove such person therefrom.
(3) Where the place to which such a person is taken is a workhouse, the master shall receive him into the workhouse if there is suitable accommodation therein, arid any expenses incurred in respect of him shall be defrayed by the local authority, but shall, if an order is eventually made, be recoverable from the defective or any person liable to maintain him as if they were part of the expenses of his maintenance.
I beg to move my first Amendment in Clause 15, which Clause gives power to the local authority to deal summarily with cases of children who are being neglected or abandoned or have no means of support, and it gives not only to the local authority but to any constable power to enter and to remove these children. "If any officer of the local authority authorised in that behalf or any constable finds neglected, abandoned, or without visible means of support, or cruelly treated any person whom he has reasonable cause to believe to be defective, he may take such person to a place of safety, and such person may be there detained until a petition under this Act can be presented." It seems to me rather strong to give to any constable power to take any child away on the ground that it is a defective child and to carry it off to a workhouse. It is enforced abduction, so to speak, when the constable has grounds to suppose that the child is being neglected. I think the poor are under the thumb of the police enough already, and I do not notice that they are getting more popular as time goes on. I think by giving this power you will be storing up a good deal more unpopularity for the police than they have at the present time. Surely, if you give to any officer of the local authority—and there are lots of these inspectors available—power to take these children wherever they may find them, that is enough, without extending that power to constables who will know very little about this Act, and who have quite enough to do with the working classes as it is. I move to leave out the words "or any constable."
I beg to second the Amendment.
Surely, it is proper that a constable who finds a child neglected or abandoned should have the power to take that child.
A constable has that power already if the children are in difficulty. You are giving additional powers to take away a child who is not in a state which would normally call for the help of the police, and anyone "who is neglected or abandoned" according to the constable. She may be playing in the street in front of her own house.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be
Division No. 223.]
| AYES.
| [3.25 a.m.
|
| Abraham. William (Dublin, Harbour) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | O'Connor,. John (Kildare, N.) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Goldstone, Frank | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Adamson, William | Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Dowd, John |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Gulland, John William | O'Malley, William |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Hackett, John | O'Shee, James John |
| Baird, J. L. | Harcourt. Robert V. (Montrose) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Barton, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hayden, John Patrick | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Hazleton, Richard | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central). |
| Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.) | Higham, John Sharp | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Reddy, M. |
| Boland, John Pius | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | John, Edward Thomas | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Brace, William | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Roberts, Charles (Lincoln) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Joyce, Michael | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Keating, Matthew | Rowlands, James |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Kelly, Edward | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Kilbride, Denis | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | King, Joseph | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Clough, William | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Sheehy, David |
| Clynes, John R. | Lardner, James C. R. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Levy, Sir Maurice | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Stewart, Gershom |
| Cullinan, John | Lundon, Thomas | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Lynch, A. A. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | McGhee, Richard | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Delany, William | Maclean, Donald | Tennant, Harold John |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Macpherson, James Ian | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Doris, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Duffy, William J. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Webb, H. |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Meagher, Michael | White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston), |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Millar, James Duncan | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Molloy, Michael | Wiles, Thomas |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Morgan, George Hay | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Morrell, Philip | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Ffrench, Peter | Muldoon, John | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Field, William | Munro, R. | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Nolan, Joseph | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
NOES.
| ||
| Barnston, Harry | Goldsmith, Frank | Morrison-Bell. Major, A. C. (Honiton) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Greene, W. R. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hodge, John | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Hogge, James Myles | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Horner, Andrew Long | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Martin. |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Jessel, Captain H. M. | |
| Gilmour, Captain John | ||
Question put accordingly, "That the words of the Bill to the end of Clause 19 stand part of the Bill."
now put in respect of the words of the Bill to the end of Clause 19."
Question put, "That that Question be now put."
The House divided: Ayes, 147; Noes, 22.
The House divided: Ayes, 156; Noes, 5.
Division No. 224.]
| AYES.
| [3.31 a.m.
|
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Gilmour, Captain John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Gladstone, W. G. C. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Adamson, William | Goldstone, Frank | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Dowd, John |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Gulland, John William | O'Malley, William |
| Arnold, Sydney | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Hackett, John | O'Shee, James John |
| Barnston, Harry | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Barton, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hayden, John Patrick | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Hazleton, Richard | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Higham, John Sharp | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Boland, John Pius | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Reddy, Michael |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Horner, Andrew Long | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Brace, William | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Illingworth, Percy H. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | John, Edward Thomas | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Rowlands, James |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Joyce, Michael | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Keating, Matthew | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kelly, Edward | Sheehy, David |
| Clough, William | Kilbride, Denis | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | King, Joseph | Stanley, Albert (Staffs. N.W.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston |
| Cullinan, John | Lardner, James C. R. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Dairyrnple, Viscount | Levy, Sir Maurice | Sutherland, John E. |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lundon, Thomas | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Tennant, Harold John |
| Delany, William | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | McGhee, Richard | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Dickson. Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Maclean, Donald | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Doris, William | Macpherson, James Ian | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Duffy, William J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Webb, H. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Meagher, Michael | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Millar, James Duncan | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Molloy, Michael | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morgan, George Hay | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Field, William | Morrell, Philip | |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Muldoon, John | |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Munro, Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Hon. Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Nolan, Joseph |
NOES.
| ||
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hogge, James Myles | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Martin. |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | |
| Hodge, John | ||
Ordered, That further Consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned.—[ Mr. Gulland.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be further considered tomorrow (Tuesday).
Children (Employment Abroad) Bill Lords
Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Business Of The House (Supply)
Ordered, That one additional day be allotted to the Business of Supply.—[ Mr. Gulland.]
The remaining Government Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 22nd July, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Eighteen minutes before Four o'clock a.m.., Tuesday, 29th July.