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Commons Chamber

Volume 59: debated on Monday 2 March 1914

House of Commons

Monday, March 2, 1914

Sale of Intoxicating Liquor (Sunday)

I beg to present a petition signed by residents of the British Islands showing "that your petitioners believe that the sale of intoxicating liquors on Sunday is a special cause of intemperance, immorality, and crime, and that, moreover, those persons employed in such sales should have their Sunday's rest. Your petitioners therefore pray your honourable House to pass a Bill stopping such sale on Sundays throughout England." The petition is signed by 168,000, and the signatures were collected by the officers and members of the Salvation Army.

Private Business

Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Port Talbot Railway and Docks Bill.

Southend Gas Bill.

Ordered, That the Bills be committed.

Private Bill Petitions [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—

Butterfly Company [ Lords ],

Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, that, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—

Marriages Provisional Order Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.

London Electric Supply Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Monday, 16th March.

South Suburban Gas Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Monday next.

Chesterfield Corporation Bill (by Order),

Read a second time, and committed.

Market Rasen Water Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Thursday.

Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 21) Bill (by Order),

Third Reading deferred till To-morrow.

Land Drainage Provisional Order Bill,

"To confirm a Provisional Order under the Land Drainage Act, 1861, in the matter of a proposed drainage district in the parish of Rippingale, in the county of Lincoln." Presented by Mr. RUNCIMAN; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 80.]

Commons Regulation (Gosford Green) Provisional Order Bill,

"To confirm a Provisional Order under the Inclosure Acts, 1845 to 1899, relating to Gosford Green, in the city of Coventry, and for purposes incidental thereto." Presented by Mr. RUNCIMAN; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 81.]

Post Office (Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post)

Copy presented of the Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post Amendment (No. 61) Warrant, 1914, dated 10th February, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

TREATY SERIES (No. 3, 1913)

Copy presented of Exchange of Notes between the United Kingdom and Spain renewing for a further period of five years the Arbitration Agreement signed at London, 27th February, 1904 ("Treaty Series (No. 4, 1904)"), London, 15th February, 1914 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

TREATY SERIES (No. 4, 1914)

Copy presented of Exchange of Notes between the United Kingdom and Italy renewing for a further period of five years the Arbitration Agreement signed at Rome, 1st February, 1904 ("Treaty Series (No. 3, 1904)"), London, 31st January, 1914 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Civil Services and Revenue Departments (Estimates, 1913–14)

Estimate presented for Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending 31st March, 1915, with Memorandum by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 132.]

Standing Committees (Chairmen's Panel)

MR. STUART-WORTLEY reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Sir Arthur Griffith-Boscawen to act as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Children (Employment and School Attendance) Bill) and the (Grey Seals (Protection) Bill).

Mr. Stuart-Wortley further reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had agreed to the following Resolutions:—

That any Member of the Chairmen's Panel may be and he is hereby empowered to ask any other Member of the Chairmen's Panel to take his place temporarily in case of necessity;

That, in the absence of the Chairman of the Chairmen's Panel, the Panel may be convened at the request of any two Members of the Panel.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Selection (Standing Committees)

SIR DANIEL GODDARD reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Sir Frederick Banbury; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the Children (Employment and School Attendance) Bill): Major George Stanley.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Mexico (Death of Mr. Benton)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the whole territory of the Mexican Republic, or only its northern provinces, is within the sphere of influence of the United States Government in the same degree that Southern Persia is within the sphere of influence of the British Empire; and whether, in either case, the duty and responsibility of the State Department at Washington to protect British lives and property will be more effectively insisted on by the Foreign Office?

There is no analogy between the conditions in Mexico and Persia, nor are there any spheres of influence in Mexico. The United States Government, who alone are in a position to hold any communication with General Villa, have offered to use what influence they have with the Constitutionalists on behalf of foreign lives and property.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state for how long General Huerta and the party which he leads have been in effective control of the capital city and of the greater portion of the territory of the Mexican Republic; and whether, in view of the risk to British lives and to British capital involved by the prolongation of the present position, he will recognise General Huerta and his government?

General Huerta became provisional President of Mexico on 19th February, 1913, and was recognised as such by His Majesty's Government at the end of March.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can give any information as to the progress of the investigation into the death of Mr. Benton in Mexico?

The only information that I can give to-day is as follows:—We heard yesterday evening that His Majesty's Consul from Galveston was leaving El Paso yesterday morning with Mr. James Hambleton, F.R.G.S., as British representative, two United States Army surgeons and an American lawyer and doctor. But we have heard this morning from Washington that the Secretary of State considers that it would not be safe to send the commission at present, and that he has ordered it to wait. My right hon. Friend will make a statement on the subject after Questions to-morrow.

Albania

asked whether the Albanian deputation that recently waited on the Prince of Wied, under the leader ship of Essad Pasha, to offer him the throne of Albania contained any representatives from the district of Northern Epirus which is to form part of his kingdom?

I have no information as to the composition of the deputation referred to.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has assented to the district of Northern Epirus being policed by an Albanian gendarmerie under Dutch officers on its evacuation by Hellenic troops and its absorption in the newly-formed kingdom of Albania?

The proposed course has the approval of all the six Powers, and as one of the Powers we agree to it.

Does the hon. Gentleman think those Albanian brigands will make good gendarmes?

asked whether the inhabitants of Northern Epirus have established a provisional Government and proclaimed their autonomy; whether this action has been taken in view of their determination not to submit themselves to a form of government controlled by their ancient opponents, the Mussulman population of Albania; and whether this country intends to associate itself with any attempt that may be made to overcome their resistance by force of arms?

I have been informed that placards have been circulated at Vallona announcing the proclamation of the autonomy of Epirus under a certain Spiro Milio. I have no further official information on the subject. The matter has not yet been discussed between the Powers. I am unable, therefore, to say to what contingencies it may give rise.

Portuguese West Africa (Mr. Bowskill's Arrest)

asked whether the Reverend Mr. Bowskill, at the request of the Portuguese authorities, risked his life in going out to meet the rebel leaders who were attacking San Salvador; and whether Mr. Bowskill demanded that before doing so the request should be made in writing?

We have received copies of letters written by Mr. Bowskill in December, extracts from which have appeared in the Press. It would appear from them that the statements in the hon. Member's question are correct.

Is the statement in the "Times" to-day correct, that this dispute had no connection with the administration of the labour regulations?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British Consul-General at Boma is within easy reach of San Salvador, the post at which the Rev. Mr. Bowskill is under arrest; and, if so, will he consider the advisability of telegraphing instructions, either to the Consul-General at Boma or to the Vice-Consul at Leopoldville, to proceed at once to San Salvador to institute a full inquiry?

His Majesty's Consul at Loanda has been instructed to ascertain as quickly as possible the grounds of Mr. Bowskill's arrest, and the causes leading to it. He is also to inquire as to Mr. Bowskill's whereabouts. His Majesty's Minister at Lisbon has been instructed to inform the Portuguese Government of the serious impression which will be created by the arrest, and to ask them to ascertain and inform him of the facts, and, pending an inquiry, to have Mr. Bowskill released. I have also asked the Portuguese Government to afford facilities to the Acting British Consul at Boma, who has been instructed to proceed at once to make inquiries on the spot into the circumstances of the arrest, and furnish a full report. I have just heard from Lisbon that instructions have been sent to afford all facilities and every assistance to the British Consul.

We have to-day received a telegram from His Majesty's Consul at Loanda, stating that at the telegraphic request of the head of the mission at Matadi, on 25th February, he informed the Governor-General, who immediately telegraphed through the Administration at Noqui to the Governor of the Portuguese Congo, who is on his way to San Salvador, for an immediate explanation of the arrest with instructions to liberate Mr. Bowskill immediately unless there were strict legal reasons for his detention, in which case the entire responsibility for the detention would be on the Governor of the Congo. Mr. Hall Hall adds that a reply is expected about 4th March, owing to communications with San Salvador being interrupted.

Are not the good offices of the British Foreign Office in a case like this conditional upon the abstention of the reverend gentleman from interference in Portuguese politics?

The good offices of the British Foreign Office are always at the disposal of any British subject who is arrested until we are assured that the arrest is in strict accordance with law.

Is it a fact that the only interference which is suggested was at the request of the Portuguese Government?

We do not yet know the circumstances of the arrest. We know what happened in December fully from letters which have been received, but our difficulty now is to find out the circumstances of the recent arrest.

Would the request of the Portuguese authorities in such a case justify such intervention as is inferable on the part of this reverend gentleman?

Hague Conference

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can publish or lay upon the Table of the House the text of the letter recently received from the United States Government regarding the preparations for the next Hague Conference?

I cannot publish the communication from the United States Government without their leave. As soon as an answer has been returned to it I shall have no objection to stating the nature of the communication and of His Majesty's Government's reply, and perhaps this will meet the hon. Member's wishes.

Not exactly, but the matter is now under the most definite consideration.

Foot-and-Mouth Disease

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will give a reference to the Act of Parliament, and point out the Clause or Section therein under which the Board of Agriculture issue an embargo on all Irish livestock consigned from areas free of disease; and whether he will in future modify the action hitherto followed preventing importations of livestock from uninfected districts in Ireland?

The Order of the Board, dated 13th February, to which I presume my hon. Friend refers, was made under the powers conferred on the Board by Section 22, Sub-sections xvii. and xxxvii. of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894. With regard to the second part of the question, I can only say that in taking such action as may appear to them to be necessary as a precaution against the introduction of disease, the Board will always do their utmost to mitigate the loss and inconvenience which is inevitably caused to persons interested in the Irish livestock trade on both sides of the Channel.

What was the result of the inquiry which has been made at Birkenhead as to the origin of this disease?

I am afraid I cannot make any statement on this subject at present. Evidence was taken at the inquiry, but the Report has not yet been drawn up.

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, when cattle from Ireland are placed in quarantine at Birkenhead or other ports they are fed on foreign hay; and whether, if such is the case, he will forthwith forbid the practice?

The fodder supplied to Irish cattle at the landing places in Great Britain is provided in some cases by the owners of the landing places and in others by the owners of the cattle. Hay from Canada was supplied to some Irish cattle in the Woodside lairage at Birkenhead at the beginning of last month, but the Board have no means of knowing with certainty the origin of all hay supplied. Foreign hay is allowed to be imported only from countries known to be entirely free from foot-and-mouth disease, and in these circumstances I am not prepared to prohibit its use.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what countries on the Continent are free from foot-and-mouth disease?

Would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to lay the same embargo upon litter and other food stuffs as upon hay and straw?

I should have to consider that question. So far as these particular animals are concerned, it does not appear that they received any infection from either food stuffs or hay or straw.

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, as Ireland is free from foot-and-mouth disease, he will have the restrictions removed and permit the exportation of live stock from Ireland to the markets in Great Britain?

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is now in a position to make a statement declaring the right of Irish cattle to be exported into Great Britain, seeing there is no evidence of cattle disease in any part of Ireland?

Veterinary officers of the Board and of the Irish Department met at Birkenhead on Thursday last and all available evidence bearing on the question of the origin of the recent outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease was carefully examined and discussed. Some further communication between the representatives of the two Departments must take place before any conclusions can be arrived at. Meanwhile, I regret that the new outbreaks confirmed yesterday in the South of Ireland make it impossible for the restrictions upon the importation of Irish animals into Great Britain to be relaxed for the present.

As Cork lies at the extreme limit of the South of Ireland, will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the opening of the ports in the north and east?

I am afraid that the position is still too uncertain to enable me to take the risk of opening the ports at present.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any foot-and-mouth disease in the North of England at present?

There was a case at Low Fell ten days ago, and there have been two or three cases in Liverpool quite recently, the Liverpool cases being, no doubt, connected with the Birkenhead outbreak.

Is there any reason why sheep should not be allowed to be exported from Glasgow to Ireland?

The export of sheep from Glagow can go on so far as I am concerned. If the Noble Lord means the export of sheep to Ireland the question should be addressed to the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture, Ireland.

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether there has been any fresh case of foot-and-mouth disease in Worcestershire; and, if not, whether he can modify the Order now in force, so as to allow cattle and sheep to cross public roads, to enter adjoining buildings, for milking and lambing purposes?

No new cases of foot-and-mouth disease have occurred in Worcestershire. The Board have under consideration the issue of an Order to come into operation within the next few days, the effect of which will be to allow under licence the movement of animals for slaughter or for other special reasons within a large part of the scheduled area. Every effort will be made to minimise the unavoidable loss and inconvenience suffered by farmers, and applications may be made to the Board or to the inspector in charge for special leave to move animals in case of urgent necessity; but the hon. Member and the farmers themselves will. I have no doubt, recognise that exemptions can be allowed only in exceptionally urgent cases, for the value of the restrictions in preventing the spread of infection is lost unless they are rigorously enforced.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether similar regulations will be applied to Ireland?

That question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend at the head of the Irish Agricultural Department.

asked the Prime Minister: (1) Whether, having regard to the loss inflicted on Irish stockowners and traders in cattle between Great Britain and Ireland, in consequence of the restriction imposed on the landing and marketing of Irish cattle in this country and to the practice of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, when a single outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease occurs in Ireland, in issuing orders and regulations prohibiting the landing of animals from any part of Ireland however remote from the centre of infection, he will grant a Committee of Inquiry into the application of the existing law, as applied to the transit of cattle between Great Britain and Ireland in the event of an outbreak of disease in either country, and as to whether the regulations enforced by the British and Irish Departments were in accordance with the spirit of the Act of Parliament under which they claimed legal authority? (2) Whether, having regard to the complaints made by Irish cattle traders as to the loss inflicted on them by the present detention orders in Great Britain in consequence of the suffering of animals resulting therefrom, he will so word the terms of reference to any Committee of Inquiry he may appoint that will enable practical men engaged in the cattle traffic between Great Britain and Ireland to appear before the Committee and give evidence as to the hardships to which they are subjected in consequence of unnecessary delay and suffering inflicted on their stock and to which they have been witnesses, and to offer suggestions begotten of their own personal experience as to what improvements in present regulations are desirable?

I see no occasion for the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry as suggested by the hon. Member.

Having regard to the great importance of the cattle trade to Ireland and to the general desire expressed on this matter, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of granting such a Committee of Inquiry into the transit question?

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture for Ireland whether he has any information to give the House as to an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Ireland; and can he give any information as to the origin of the outbreak?

I have received the following telegram, dated 1st March: "To-day an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease has been confirmed among cattle belonging to George Hanley, Ballinacourta, near Kinsale—four animals affected. Other outbreaks reported from Ballinacusha, near Queenstown, and from Grange Douglas, near Cork. These are being examined by Department's Inspectors, but evidence so far to hand strongly indicates that foot-and-mouth exists on these places. Officers have been despatched to the spot, and all the necessary measures are being taken for dealing with the outbreak. Some of the affected animals were bought last week at sales at Cork, and as there has been considerable intercourse between Cork and Birkenhead recently, involving movements of dealers and others, this is believed to be a likely source of infection as indicating the origin of the present outbreaks."

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that none of these dealers who are engaged in slaughtering cattle at Birkenhead—five of whom went to Greenore without being disinfected—took the infection with them?

It is quite impossible for me to answer a question of that kind. These men, returning from Birkenhead and from work of that kind, land at different ports, and it is almost impossible to detect them; but we are doing our best in that direction.

Is the right hon. Gentleman now prepared to allow Scottish sheep from Glasgow into the North of Ireland?

I am in communication with the principal officers of the Department, in regard to that. I am not keeping the Irish ports closed against Scottish sheep because of an outbreak in Cork, but because of outbreaks at Durham and Liverpool.

Are there at Cork any facilities for the disinfection of persons engaged in this trade on returning from Cork market?

Yes. There are disinfecting facilities at all the ports under the charge of the Department.

Forest of Dean (Government Employés)

asked whether, seeing that ordinary workmen in the Forest of Dean in the employment of the Crown receive a wage of 18s. a week with no allowances, and have to pay there-out a cottage rent, and that during the last eight years no increase has been made in such wage although the cost of commodities has risen by at least 10 per cent., the Government will, by way of example to private employers, forthwith advance the wages of such employés?

The wages of able-bodied men employed in the Dean Forest and on other Crown estates are under consideration; and I will make a statement when the revision is complete.

Does the right hon. Gentleman admit the statement in the latter part of the question, that the cost of commodities has gone up by at least 10 per cent., which is not the fact. A number of commodities have gone down and been reduced in value?

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in view of the financial difficulties and domestic embarrassments often occasioned to the lower paid State employés in the Forest of Dean owing to the receipt of their wages at intervals of one month or longer, he will make arrangements for their being paid weekly, in accordance with the usual practice on privately owned property?

No complaint about the present system of paying wages in Dean Forest once a month have been received from the men concerned. The men are widely scattered and the introduction of a weekly pay day would involve some inconvenience and waste of time. Should I, however, find reason to think that there is any general desire for payment after shorter intervals than at present, I will consider whether anything can be done to meet it.

Would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to receive a deputation on this subject when he is next at the Forest of Dean?

May I ask whether these wages are paid in arrear and not in advance, and whether a very small portion——

New Hebrides

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will submit to the Governments of Australia and New Zealand for their consideration any tentative arrangements arrived at with France regarding the New Hebrides before they are finally ratified?

The Governments of the Commonwealth and New Zealand have been informed that they will be consulted before any new arrangement is entered into.

Bee Disease Bill

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he proposes to reintroduce the Bee Disease Bill this Session?

Coleford and West Dean Water Supply

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he realises that a scheme for providing the district of West Dean and the town of Coleford, in the Forest of Dean, with a wholesome supply of water has, in view of the increasing population consequent upon coal-mining developments upon Crown Land, become essential to the health of the inhabitants and in settling the housing problem in the Forest; whether the Office of Woods and the Treasury have received an appeal from the Gloucestershire County Council and the district councils of the areas affected to make a substantial contribution towards the cost of carrying out the proposed scheme, without which it will be impracticable; and, if so, whether, in view of the increasing income derived by the Crown from mining royalties, the Government propose to respond generously to such appeal?

An appeal for a contribution out of the Land Revenues of the Crown towards the cost of a scheme for supplying West Dean and Coleford with water has been received, and I have been asked to see a deputation from the county council on the subject. I hope to be able before long to give the deputation an interview.

Crown Lands

asked what is the acreage of land owned by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests in Scotland; and how much of it is let or used for sporting purposes?

The area of Crown land in Scotland under the management of the Commissioners of Woods is about 35,651 acres. The answer to the second part of the question is that about 3,300 acres are used for purposes of sport only, this area consisting of very wet ground, which is of no use for any other purpose except for grazing sheep for a few months in summer.

May I ask whether any of the rest of the land is partially used for sporting purposes?

I have no doubt that there is shooting over most of the Crown lands in Scotland.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there are shooting rights over the whole of the Crown lands, and that large rents are obtained for them?

I am well aware of that, but we do not allow sporting rights to interfere in any way with afforestation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answer is not an answer to my question?

I have given as good an answer as I can. If the hon. Gentleman wants a further answer, perhaps he will put another question on the Paper.

asked whether recently on the renewal of a lease of No. 98, Portland Place, by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, the rent was increased by more than 4,500 per cent., namely, from £9 to £420, and in addition an expenditure on the premises by the tenant was required; and what was the amount of such expenditure?

The site was let on a building lease at £9 per annum as long ago as 1822, which lease expired at Michaelmas, 1911. The house was let by the Commissioners as from 5th January, 1912, at £420 a year after the first three months, the lessee undertaking to expend £1,000 in repairs and improvements towards which sum the Commissioners contributed a sum of £800.

Small Holdings

asked how many fresh applications for small holdings were received by county councils in 1913; how many of these were approved; and in how many cases were holdings actually provided?

Fresh applications were received in 1913 from 4,061 persons, of whom 2,485 were approved. The number of new holdings provided in 1913 was 2,504.

asked how many acres of land were applied for in 1913 for the purpose of small holdings and how many acres were actually provided?

During the year 1913 applications were received for 70,064 acres, applicants were approved for 40,225 acres, and 25,046 acres were acquired for the purpose of small holdings.

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will state how many of the 4,744 applicants for small holdings since the passing of the Act are considered to be suitable; how many of them were actually smallholders at the time and merely wished to change their holdings; and how many have been dealt with?

I regret that I am unable to give the Noble Lord detailed figures on these points. The great majority of the applicants are considered to be suitable.

asked the Secretary for Scotland, whether he will say how many of the 3,388 applicants for enlargements of crofts have been provided with enlargements?

The number of applicants actually provided with enlargements is 135. There are a number of other cases in various stages of progress.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman give me only number of enlargements when he cannot tell me the number of new holdings?

The question was not the number of new crofts which have actually been provided; it was how they had been dealt with.

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will state how many small holdings have actually been provided under the provisions of the Small Holdings Act in deer forests; and how much arable or old arable ground is there actually available for such?

So far no small holdings have been provided under the Act in deer forests. In answer to the second part of the question, I would refer the Noble Lord to the Report of the Highlands and Islands Commission.

Are we to understand that this Report is correct, and that the other Reports concerning deer forests are incorrect?

Agricultural Labourers

asked if the average weekly earnings in cash and in kind of agriculture labourers in the counties of Shropshire, Oxfordshire, and Cornwall have risen since the Return for 1907; and, if so, by how much, respectively?

No inquiry into the total earnings of agricultural labourers, as distinct from their cash rates of wages, has been made since 1907. The annual inquiries into cash rates of wages show that, since that year, there has been a rise of about 2s. per week in several districts in Cornwall, and of 6d. or 1s. in a few areas in Shropshire. In Oxfordshire the upward movement was very slight.

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if his Department has received an offer of land free of cost for the building of cottages for agricultural labourers at Hastingleigh, near Ashford; if the offer was declined on the grounds that there was no demand for additional cottages and that the wages prevalent in the district would not admit of cottages being built and let at a satisfactory rent; and if the Government only propose to build rural cottages in districts where wages are above a certain level?

The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative. The Board have no power to acquire land for the building of cottages, but if there had been any demand for additional cottages at Hastingleigh, and if the wages paid to agricultural labourers in the district had been sufficient to enable them to pay an economic rent, I should gladly have submitted the offer of land to the Treasury with a view to its acceptance by the Commissioners of Woods. With regard to the past part of the question, I must ask the hon. Member to wait for the introduction of the Bill.

May I ask whether it is not a question of land being given free, gratis, and for nothing, but because there is not enough money allowed to admit of the construction of cottages which could be let at moderate rents, thereby giving an advantage to labourers?

The cost of land is not the only matter which has to be considered. The money for land is not a very large proportion of the cost.

Office of Works (Tenders)

asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, why tenders for furniture, etc., required in the public service are limited to manufacturers only; and whether, in view of the facts that the retailers, who are taxpayers and ratepayers, are thus prevented from tendering and many manufacturers refuse to tender except through retailers, he will abandon the restriction which limits the area of supply?

The course of action referred to is dictated by consideration of economy and a desire to render effective the Fair-Wages Resolution. In certain cases special articles are obtained from retailers.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that he is limiting the market by restricting the tenders to wholesalers?

I am sure that we are getting the best terms by going direct to the source of supply.

asked whether, in asking for tenders for goods required in the public service which are manufactured abroad, the tenders are limited to manufacturers or whether they are sought also from retailers?

Housing of Working Classes

asked the President of the Local Government Board what was the price paid for the 9 acres 1 rood 25 perches of land acquired by the Southgate Urban District Council for the erection of houses under the provisions of Part III. of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, and in respect of which the Local Government Board sanctioned a loan of £2,250; what, prior to acquisition, was the total gross and net rental, and the total assessment of this land to local rates, or, if this land formed a portion of a larger property, by how much the assessment of that larger property to local rates was reduced by reason of the severance of that portion?

The full price paid for the land was £3,250, the difference between that sum and £2,250 being sanctioned under the Public Health Act for highway purposes in respect of the getting of gravel. Prior to its acquisition, the gross estimated rental was £22 and rateable value £21.

How much does the cost of this land represent in the whole cost of the cottages and in the proposed weekly rents?

asked what was the price paid for the 10 acres 1 rood and 9 perches of land acquired by the Featherstone Urban District Council for the erection of houses under the provisions of Part III. of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, and in respect of which the Local Government Board sanctioned a loan of £3,505; and what, prior to acquisition, was the total gross and net rental and the total assessment of this land to local rates, or, if this land formed a portion of a larger property, by how much the assessment of that larger property to local rates was reduced by reason of the severance of that portion?

The purchase of the land referred to was not completed by the Featherstone Council, and the sanction to a loan for the purpose was cancelled in August, 1913, when the Board sanctioned a loan of £933 for the purchase of another site of over 11 acres.

asked what was the price paid for the 5 acres and 30 perches of land acquired by the Hendon Urban District Council for a housing scheme under the provisions of Part III. of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, and in respect of which the Local Government Board sanctioned a loan of £2,075; and what, prior to acquisition, was the total gross and net rental and the total assessment of this land to local rates or, if this land formed a portion of a larger property, by how much the assessment of that larger property to local rates was reduced by reason of the severance of that portion?

The sum of £2,075 represents the agreed purchase money for the land referred to. This land forms a portion of a larger property, but, as the actual conveyance has not yet been completed, no change in the assessment has been rendered necessary.

asked what was the price paid for the 6 acres and 33 perches of land acquired by the Chelmsford Borough Council for the erection of houses under the provisions of Part III. of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, and in respect of which the Local Government Board sanctioned a loan of £1,769; what, prior to acquisition, was the total gross and net rental and the total assessment of this land to local rates, or, if this land formed a portion of a larger property, by how much the assessment of that larger property to local rates was reduced by reason of the severance of that portion?

The price paid for the land was £1,706. It formed part of a larger property, and the gross estimated rental and the rateable value of the part acquired by the council have been fixed at £18 and £16 10s. respectively, by which amounts the rental and rateable value of the larger property may be reduced.

asked what was the price paid for the 14 acres of land acquired by the Barnet Urban District Council for a housing scheme under the provisions of Part III. of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, and in respect of which the Local Government Board sanctioned a loan of £2,500; and what, prior to acquisition, was the total gross and net rental and the total asessment of this land to local rates, or, if this land formed a portion of a larger property, by how much the assessment of that larger property to local rates was reduced by reason of the severance of that portion?

The price paid for the land was £2,500. The gross rental was £23 10s., and rateable value £23.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would serve a useful purpose if he issued a Return of all these cases of which his Department have knowledge?

If the hon. Member will put down a Motion on the Paper I will be glad to consider it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman include how much the cost of the land represents in the rents?

Poor Law Officers (Superannuation)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, under the provisions of the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896, an officer dismissed for misconduct may obtain a refund of his payments, but not so in the case of an officer voluntarily resigning; and whether, in that case, he will consider an alteration of the law?

The answer is in the negative. An officer who has become qualified for a superannuation allowance is entitled to receive it if he voluntarily resigns, but not if he is dismissed owing to misconduct, though, in that event, the guardians may, if they see fit, return to him the amount of his contributions. An officer ceasing to hold office before he is qualified for a superannuation allowance is entitled to the return of his contributions, except where his retirement is due either to his own misconduct or voluntary resignation.

Irish Language (Letters)

asked the Postmaster-General whether letters addressed in Irish have been refused acceptance by Post Office officials in Ireland; if so, under whose instructions they acted; and what arrangements, if any, have been made to meet the requirements of those people who speak no language but Irish?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for West Clare on the same subject on the 24th February.

Inland Waters (Three-Mile Limit)

asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the importance of the question relating to the closing of certain inland waters and extending the three-mile limit, referred to his Committee, he will state when his Report on that subject will be issued?

The Interdepartmental Committee on Fisheries has not yet completed hearing the evidence it proposes to take as to the advisability or otherwise of extending the three-mile limit, and, in view of the importance of this matter, I am unable at present to inform the hon. Member as to the probable date of the promulgation of the Report.

Telephone Service

asked whether the Post Office is still collecting intercommunication fees which were formerly charged for telephonic communication between the Post Office and the National Telephone systems?

Under the agreement of 1905 for the purchase of the National Telephone Company's system, the terminal fees which had been charged previously on trunk calls between the subscribers of the two systems were withdrawn, and since then no such fees have been charged.

Imperial Wireless Chain

asked (1) whether sites have been obtained for stations of the Imperial Wireless Chain in England, Egypt, East Africa Protectorate, Union of South Africa, India, and Singapore; and (2) whether detailed specifications of all machinery and plant required for the Imperial Wireless Chain have been submitted by the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company for the approval of the Postmaster-General, as provided in Clause 4 of the Agreement of the 30th July, 1913; and, if so, whether they have been approved of, and on what date?

Work on the English station, which is situated at Leafield, Oxfordshire, has already begun, and in connection with that station detailed specifications of the power plants and masts have been submitted by the Marconi Company. These have been generally approved, subject to certain reservations. The specifications of the wireless plant have not yet been settled. As regards Egypt, a change has been made in the original proposal, under which the station in Egypt will be a three-way station instead of a two-way station. Originally the three-way station was to be in East Africa, but it was found impossible, at any rate without very large expenditure, to obtain a suitable site in that Protectorate for a three-way station, and as the Marconi Company were willing to guarantee the maintenance of continuous and efficient communication between Egypt and India, the Postmaster-General decided to erect the three-way station in Egypt instead of in East Africa. The site for this station has been purchased, and the specifications of the power plant and masts have been generally approved. As a result of the change I have referred to, the third station will be in India instead of in East Africa, and the Indian Government is now arranging for the provision of the site in the neighbourhood of Poona. The specifications for the Indian station cannot be finally settled until the site has been approved. Under the present arrangement the East African station is necessary as a link to South Africa, and until the agreement is ratified by South Africa neither the East African nor the South African station can be proceeded with. The South African Government have informed me that they will be able to bring the matter before Parliament now. Sites, however, for both these stations have been provisionally selected, as is also the case in regard to the Straits Settlements station. As no new charge on public funds will be created by the altered arrangements, the Law Officers advise that Parliamentary sanction is not needed.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he can say on what date rights to use Dr. Goldschmidt's wireless apparatus were acquired by Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Company; and whether, in view of the unfavourable opinion of Dr. Goldschmidt's system expressed by the Postmaster-General at the end of last Session when refusing to allow its owners to tender for the Imperial Wireless Chain, he can explain why Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Company found the Goldschmidt system worth buying?

I understand that the Marconi Company acquired the rights in question in September last. I do not know what motives actuated them in doing so; but I may point out that the Advisory Committee on Wireless Telegraphy, over which Lord Parker presided, reported that the system was a promising one. I cannot find that my predecessor ever expressed any opinion inconsistent with that of the Committee; and I may perhaps remind the hon. Member that, in reply to a question asked by the hon. Member for the Horncastle Division, he stated that he would be very glad to consider the employment of the system for the later stations of the Imperial Chain if proof was forthcoming within the next few months that it was more efficient or more economical than the Marconi system.

What is the distance between the station in Egypt and the station in India?

I should like notice of that question. I have given the fullest information to the House which can be usefully given. If there are any supplementary questions outside the statement, which I have made as full as possible, I must ask hon. Members to place their questions on the Paper for Thursday.

In view of the fresh evidence of value provided by the purchase by the Marconi Company, is the right hon. Gentleman reconsidering the matter at the present time, while it is still possible to alter the system?

School for Oriental Languages

asked the Prime Minister what obstacle exists to the speedy execution in the alterations in the buildings of the London Institute recommended by Lord Cromer's Committee on the School for Oriental Languages; and whether such need necessarily be delayed till the Privy Council has passed the charter for the school?

It has already been stated that satisfactory progress is being made with the plans for the alterations of the building of the London Institution. These alterations will proceed independently of the consideration of the Privy Council of the charter for the School of Oriental Studies. Substantial provision will be inserted on account of the service in the Estimates for 1914–15, and it is hoped that tenders will be invited for the work at an early date.

Trade Disputes Act

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government proposes to hold an inquiry into the working of the Trade Disputes Act?

I am not aware that there is any sufficient reason for such an inquiry.

Has the right hon. Gentleman perused the opinions of Sir Walter Runciman and other prominent citizens?

Education Bill

asked the Prime Minister if he can inform the House what is likely to be the additional demand upon the taxpayer under the contemplated Education Bill?

I must ask the hon. Member to defer his question till the introduction of the Education Bill, when my right hon. Friend will then make a statement as to the estimated cost of the Government's proposals.

Will it not then be too late for public opinion to make itself felt?

Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to say when the Education Bill is likely to be introduced to the House?

Parliament (Duration)

asked the Prime Minister if he will ascertain whether, since the prorogation of Parliament in August, 1913, a memorial signed, amongst others, by the Dukes of Atholl, Beaufort, Bedford, Buccleuch, Devonshire, Leeds, Manchester, Marlborough, Montrose, Newcastle, Portland, Richmond and Gordon, Roxburghe, Rutland, Somerset, and of Wellington, by the Marquesses of Lansdowne, Londonderry, and of Salisbury, by Earls Curzon of Kedleston, Derby, Roberts, Selborne, and Wharncliffe, by Viscount Midleton, by Lord Ampthill, and by Lord Willoughby de Broke, has been presented to the King, praying His Majesty to exercise his Royal prerogative and forthwith to dissolve this Parliament?

I understand that no such memorial has been received by His Majesty.

Has the right hon. Gentleman made any communication direct to each one of "the poor but honest dukes" mentioned in the question?

Government of Ireland Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to agree to an arrangement whereby the financial business required to be transacted during the current financial year may be so expedited as to enable a day or days to be devoted before 12th March to the exposition and discussion of the contemplated amended proposals for the future government of Ireland, on condition that a corresponding amount of time may be specially set aside for the discussion of Estimates in the period of the Session subsequent to March?

I should welcome all means which would expedite the necessary financial business, and I shall be glad if an agreement can be come to with that object. I should consider in that connection the suggestion made by the hon. Member in the concluding part of the question.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will undertake, if the financial business is facilitated, to bring in at once his proposals with regard to the Home Rule Bill?

I want, first of all, to see some possible basis of arrangement to transact the financial business more rapidly than we at present contemplate, in order that the other object may be achieved.

For the sake of relieving the public mind, would the right hon. Gentleman not be willing to obtain by agreement this year what he took by force majeure last year?

I hope the hon. Member will not do that, because we are most anxious to come to an arrangement, and I am not at all without hope that we may be able to expedite the financial business to such an extent as to enable a statement to be made at a very early date with regard to the Government of Ireland Bill.

The right hon. Gentleman can secure that at once if he chooses. If he will undertake that, as soon as the financial business is got through, even temporarily, he will bring on the Irish Bill, we shall at once endeavour to bring that about.

asked the Prime Minister if anything has occurred since the commencement of the Session to rule out the exclusion of Ulster from the Government's proposals for averting civil commotion in Ireland?

Parliamentary Elections (Three-Cornered Contests)

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the fact that, since the last General Election, on no fewer than six occasions candidates have been returned at by-elections in three-cornered contests in whose favour a majority of the votes were not recorded, the Government will consider what steps may be taken by legislation providing for a second ballot or otherwise for the abolition of this electoral anomaly or injustice?

This matter has not escaped the notice of the Government, but I cannot say more at present

Orkney and Shetland Cable

asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that the cable has been broken between Orkney and Shetland for over three months and no effort made to repair it, he will, considering the inconvenience suffered by the public, endeavour to obtain the services of a suitable ship fitted with wireless apparatus from the Admiralty and, to prevent a further repetition of such delay, if he can negotiate with the Northern Lighthouse Commissioners to utilise the services of the "Pole Star" for repairs in cases of emergency?

Arrangements have been made for the "Telconia" to proceed to the Orkneys direct from the work she is now engaged upon and to pick up the necessary cable from the "Monarch" en route. As my hon. Friend is aware, there is no Post Office Wireless Station which could work to Kirkwall, even if a ship were stationed there. The "Pole Star" is not a cable ship, and it would take ten or twelve days to fit her for cable work.

Has the vessel actually left? She has been going to leave for the last fortnight.

I understand that the ship has actually left for the purpose of picking up the cable at Pembroke Dock, where the "Monarch" is lying for repair.

Postal Workers

asked the Postmaster-General if he will state what would be the aggregate cost of an advance of 2s. per week to all postal workers in all grades?

There are about 237,000 postal workers in all grades. At 2s. per week rise, the aggregate increased cost would be about £1,230,000 a year, exclusive of the contingent increased cost for pension, extra duty, Sunday pay, etc.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will state what the aggregate cost would be of increasing the remuneration of all sub-postmasters by 10 per cent. on their present scale?

The total remuneration of sub-postmasters, including the increase under the recommendations of the recent Parliamentary Committee, is about £1,500,000 a year. A 10 per cent. increase would, therefore, cost about £150,000 a year.

Imprisonment for Debt (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will state the average number of persons who during the last three years, have been sentenced to terms of imprisonment on account of being unable to pay certain liabilities incurred by them; and the average length of such sentences?

The average number of civil prisoners for debt during the last three years is twenty-one, and the average duration of confinement is fourteen days. These figures do not include persons committed to prison for wilful failure to pay sums decerned for aliment.

Rosyth Dockyard

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Local Government Board have made any recent examination of the housing conditions of workmen at Rosyth; and, if so, whether he will inform the House of the results of that examination, particularly with regard to overcrowding?

Previous inquiry by the Local Government Board resulted in the provision of the accommodation for 900 workmen referred to in the reply by the Civil Lord of the Admiralty to the Noble Lord on 25th February. Since the erection of these additional houses no complaints have been received by the Board, whose officers are keeping themselves informed as to the circumstances.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an answer to the question whether there has been any recent examination of the housing conditions of the workmen of Rosyth; and, if so, will he inform the House of the result of that examination, especially with regard to overcrowding?

My answer is that the Local Government Board have carefully considered the matter, and the result was as stated by the Civil Lord of the Admiralty to the Noble Lord. The officials of the Board are keeping themselves acquainted with the circumstances regularly.

There is no necessity for a special examination so long as they are keeping themselves acquainted with the circumstances.

Has the Secretary for Scotland satisfied himself that there is no overcrowding at the present time?

Has the right hon. Gentleman satisfied himself that there is no overcrowding at Rosyth and the neighbourhood?

The answer is, that since the erection of those houses there have been no complaints of overcrowding. I am not aware that there is any overcrowding.

Land and Sport (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether any facts have been elicited since publication to justify the impression that the Return issued last Session of lands wholly devoted to sport in Scotland and over 1,000 feet in altitude is erroneous?

The answer is in the negative. My attention has been directed to certain criticisms, which will be considered if a further Return is made. As regards the altitude figures, I would call the hon. Member's attention to the footnote on page 17 of the Return.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the names of existing deer forests for which people have been turned out specifically for deer, and for over a thousand feet in altitude?

Debtors (Imprisonment)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the average number of persons who, during the last three years, have been sentenced to terms of imprisonment on account of being unable to pay certain liabilities incurred by them; and the average length of such sentences?

I presume my hon. Friend's question refers to persons imprisoned as debtors. If so, the answer is that during the last three years the average yearly number of prisoners committed as debtors was 15,640, It is impossible to say what was the average duration of the imprisonment, but, in the case of those committed by a County Court, who would form nearly one-half of the figure given, the imprisonment cannot exceed six weeks, and the average term would be much less.

How do those figures compare with the fact that imprisonment for debt was abolished fifty years ago?

Imprisonment for contempt of Court, for not obeying the Order of a judge to pay the debt by instalments, still exists.

Does the right, hon. Gentleman contemplate any legislation to deal with this state of things?

Frederick George Green (Sentence)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the sentence on Frederick George Green at the Old Bailey on 11th February; and, if so, whether he intends to take any action with reference to it?

The case has been brought to my notice, but it is not one in which I can take any action. I have no power to increase a sentence, however obviously disproportionate it may be to the gravity of the offence.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of any extenuating circumstances which might have justified Judge Atherley-Jones in giving a sentence so much below the maximum?

No, Sir; no extenuating circumstances of any kind have been brought to my notice.

Head Loads (Shoreditch Inquest)

asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been drawn to the statements made at the inquest on the body of Samuel MacDonald, at Shoreditch, when evidence was given that he died from dementia and meningitis, due to carrying heavy loads on his head, and that fish porters were frequently attacked by the same complaint; and if he will inquire into the question?

I have seen a newspaper report of the proceedings at the inquest, but the employment is not one which comes under inspection by the Home Office, and I have no special information in regard to the case. It does not appear that any medical evidence to the effect suggested was given at the inquest. If the hon. Member will furnish me with any particulars he may have to support his suggestion, I will make inquiry.

Shuttle-Kissing

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any satisfactory device for preventing shuttle-kissing has been found; and, if so, whether he will recommend its adoption in all mills?

The inspectors of factories have for some time been pressing manufacturers to adopt appliances for preventing this practice, but, as no such device had been found which was generally accepted as satisfactory, conferences have been held between the inspectors and representatives of the employers and workers. At the last conference in October a small committee representing the three parties was appointed to make practical trials in cotton mills of various devices. These trials are still proceeding, and I am not in a position to make any definite statement at present, but I have good hope of their leading to a satisfactory result.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a satisfactory device has been adopted in several mills, and can he not urge its universal adoption?

That would be one of the matters to be brought before the conference to which I have alluded. I hope to be able to make a statement later.

Suburban Railway Services (London)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the dirty condition of many of the compartments on the suburban services of some of the railways running into London; and whether he has power to put in force regulations in the interest of public health by which clean and sanitary conditions may be enforced?

The Board of Trade have no power to make such regulations, but I shall be glad to consider any specific complaints.

Great Northern Railway Company, Ireland

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Great Northern Railway Company of Ireland have increased the third-class return tickets by 12¼ per cent. and the first and second by 2 per cent., that they have increased their market tickets by 37 per cent., and passenger luggage sent forward by 50 per cent.; and, seeing that the company distributed £10,000 as a bonus amongst their servants and that the high-class officials received as much as £50 when some of the engine-drivers only received £1, will he have inquiries made into this matter?

I am aware that this company, in common with other Irish companies, has increased certain passenger charges. I am also aware that they have recently granted a bonus to their staff, but I have no information as to its distribution. The Board of Trade have no jurisdiction in regard to either of these matters.

Does the recent Act of Parliament allow the company to increase the third-class return tickets by 12¼ per cent., and the first and second by 2 per cent.?

Exports

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what is the value for 1912 of domestic exports from the United Kingdom, Germany, and the United States respectively, not including in each case the exports to the Colonies of possessions belonging to the country named; (2) what was the value of exports from the United Kingdom to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa respectively five years previous to the first grant of preference; for the year in which preference was granted; and for 1913?

I will have a statement embodying this information printed in the Votes. [ See Written Answers this date .]

Because the questions involve giving fifteen or sixteen lines of figures in columnar form, and each reply would take about seven minutes.

That is a matter of opinion. It seems to me we ought to give the figures as they are revealed by the facts.

Inland Waterways

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the event of the local authorities within all areas likely to derive benefit representing their willingness to contribute out of the local rates a substantial proportion of the total fund required for the development of the inland waterways of the country, and in view of the increasing and insistent demand by agriculturists and traders for such development, the Government will proceed to constitute a waterways board, as recommended by the Royal Commission on Canals, with a view to a percentage only of the total cost being provided from Exchequer funds and spread over a period of years during which such development would be carried out

I am afraid I cannot say more than that any specific proposals made by local authorities to contribute towards the cost of acquiring and improving canals as recommended by the Royal Commission, would receive very careful consideration.

National Insurance Act

Sickness Benefit

asked whether some approved societies in the area of the Worcester Insurance Committee are refusing to give sick benefit for certain diseases, including gout and bronchitis, in order to help themselves out of the difficulty of inevitable deficiencies in the future?

The Commissioners have no information with regard to the alleged action of societies operating in the district referred to by the hon. Member beyond what is referred to in the answer which I gave to him on the 24th February. No cases have been brought before them for decision on appeal in accordance with Section 67 of the National Insurance Act, 1911.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether accounts have yet been received from all the approved societies showing how many insured persons have received sickness benefit for the year ending 12th July, 1913, and the total amount so received; and, if so, will he state the number and the amount and whether such accounts have yet been audited?

Is it impossible to say how much sickness benefit was paid up to the 12th July last?

Does the hon. Gentleman mean that he cannot give any information?

Administration

asked in how many cases the amounts drawn by approved societies indicate a probability of excessive expenditure, and in how many cases the Commissioners have assisted or are assisting the societies in making reforms required in their system of administration?

In just over 100 cases societies have been requested to make provisional claims for reserve values, the amounts issued to them having indicated a probability either that the societies were abnormal in respect of the age distribution of the members or of the proportion of married women, or that the actuarial estimate was being exceeded. Further information has in some of these cases corrected the first conclusions drawn from the issues of funds. In the remaining cases the Commissioners have either already given advice to the societies or are obtaining further information from them in order to be in a position to give such advice.

asked what was the cost of administration of the National Insurance Act to 31st December last; and, if an exact sum cannot yet be stated, how much should be added to the £3,675,000 approved society administration and the £252,000 insurance committee administration for the cost of administration of the National Insurance Commissioners in England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales and the Joint Committee?

The exact cost of administration of the National Insurance Acts cannot be stated until the Commissioners have received the audited accounts of the societies and branches (some 20,000), and the insurance committees which administer the Acts. The amounts quoted by the hon. Member are the sums issued by the Commissioners to societies and committees respectively (for the period to 11th January, 1914) to enable them to defray expenses of administration; they do not necessarily represent the actual expenditure for the period. The amount provided in the Estimates for the financial year 1913–14 for the cost of central administration by the several Commissions and the Joint Committee is £855,659.

Valuation (Preliminary)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the anxiety felt in various parts of the country as to the probability of heavy deficiencies in some of the approved societies at the first triennial valuation under the National Insurance Act, he will cause a preliminary valuation to be taken of a few representative societies, especially women's societies, so that some immediate and reliable information may be made available on the subject?

My right hon. Friend is not prepared to make an invidious selection of a few among many representative societies to undergo such a preliminary valuation as the hon. Member suggests. But in cases where the expenditure upon benefits appears to be in excess of the anticipation, careful inquiry is being made into the methods employed by the society for properly controlling claims, and, where necessary, the co-operation of the society is being sought to effect improvements.

Approved Societies (Deficiencies)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Departmental Committee on the question of deficiencies under the National Insurance Act includes Wales in the scope of its inquiry; and, if not, will he say why this is not done?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The great majority of insured persons are covered by the terms of the Committee's reference, but my right hon. Friend understands that the question of alleged excessive claims in Wales is engaging the attention of the Welsh Insurance Commissioners.

I cannot say without notice which societies come under the jurisdiction of the Welsh Commissioners.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether any information has reached him or the Insurance Commissioners to the effect that grave deficiencies are expected in various approved societies in the county of Durham at the first triennial valuation?

It would be most unfair to the particular societies operating largely in the county referred to to attempt to conjecture beforehand their probable position after the valuation referred to by the hon. Member.

Is it not the fact that the Insurance Commissioners have received information that grave deficiences are expected with the first valuation?

asked how it is proposed to meet the deficiencies on administration accounts in the case of societies showing such deficiencies, where the deficiency cannot be included in the 1913 account without being likely to cause a deficiency on that account; and whether it is proposed that a levy should be made on the members in these cases?

Under the Act and the Regulations it is the duty of any society which has a deficiency in the administration account which is too serious to be carried forward, either to make it good in some other way within the prescribed time or to levy the members.

Minimum Benefits (Payment)

I would like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question of which I have given him notice: Whether or not it is the case that, on the evidence now available, the chief actuary has reason to consider that a large number of approved societies would, on valuation, be unable to pay the minimum benefits under the Insurance Act?

In view of the short experience of approved societies in meeting claims for benefit, disablement benefit in particular being not yet operative, I do not propose at the present moment to direct any actuarial examination to be made such as would be requisite for arriving at a reliable professional opinion. I may say, however, that the evidence at present at my disposal indicates that the experience in respect of men's societies generally has been well within the actuarial expectation. The experience in respect of women, however, indicates some excessive sickness benefit expenditure, and that this excess arises particularly from the claims in respect of married women. There are also considerations affecting some societies having an undue proportion of members in specially unhealthy trades. A strong Departmental Committee is now examining the whole subject, and I hope that its Report and evidence will be helpful in the consideration of how best to meet the particular difficulties.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware, although he has given information which is not asked for, he has not answered the question which he promised to answer? The question which I requested his permission to put on Wednesday, and which he promised to answer was: Whether in the opinion, not of himself, but of the chief Government actuary, there was evidence which would lead him to consider that the minimum benefits in the case of a large number of societies could not be paid? Why does he not answer that question?

The right hon. Gentleman assumes that this is my opinion. I certainly would not express an opinion without consulting the chief actuary of the Government. In fact, I have been in consultation with him on the very question of the right hon. Gentleman, and the answer I have given the right hon. Gentleman is given after consultation with him.

Then does the right hon. Gentleman say that he has the authority of the chief actuary for the statement that he has not evidence to lead him to suppose that a great many of the societies will not be able to pay the benefits?

I have given the answer most fully. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes or no?"] I stated exactly on Tuesday last, and I have repeated it now, that there are only two points in respect of which there could be any doubt. I have stated with respect to the men's societies that they are well within the actuarial expectation.

I am sorry to press it, but I only put this question after I had received a definite assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he would answer it. The question was: Is it the opinion of the chief actuary, on the evidence now available, that a large number of societies will not be able to pay minimum benefits? Does the right hon. Gentleman say that the chief actuary gives an answer in his words to that effect?

The answer is that he has not made an actuarial examination of these societies at the present moment. As a matter of fact, the time has not arrived for him to do so. There is a time specified in the Act for the purpose, and the chief actuary would not give an opinion on any particular society with-without an actuarial investigation into the matter. That, up to the present moment, he has not made. I think he is keeping his eye on the working of the Act, and I am giving his general view of the working of the Act.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that after promising to answer my question and refusing to do so, the public will draw the inference—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—that the Act is insolvent, and that he is now, on Monday, afraid to answer a question which on Wednesday he promised to answer?

The right hon. Gentleman has given the inference which he would like the public to draw, and which, like a good many inferences he draws, is upon most imperfect information.

Mr. BONAR LAW rose——

It is impossible to go further into this matter by way of question and answer.

Would it be in order for me, Mr. Speaker, to put a supplementary question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

I am afraid the matter has now reached a point when it ought to be debated in the ordinary course.

Questions

Wick Harbour

asked the Secretary to the Treasury by whose orders and at whose request did the engineer of the Development Commissioners visit Wick on the 3rd December, when he interviewed the members of the Harbour Trust; and what is the sum that the Development Commissioners have undertaken to pay towards the harbour extension?

No engineer employed by the Development Commissioners has visited Wick, but I understand that the engineer formerly employed by the Fishery Board for Scotland and now in the employment of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, who was in the neighbourhood in connection with work for the latter Department, visited Wick about the time mentioned at the request of the Harbour Trustees to explain some details of the scheme for the extension of the harbour which he had prepared in March, 1913. The Development Commissioners stated in May last that they would be prepared to recommend the Treasury to convert into a Grant a loan of £15,000 previously sanctioned to the Wick Harbour Trust, and to grant from the Development Fund a further sum not exceeding £22,500 if the Harbour Trust could obtain from other sources the remaining three-quarters of the sum of £150,000 then estimated to be necessary for the repair and reconstruction of existing works and the execution of new ones.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that account is perfectly different from the account published in the Liberal papers as to the transaction and from the report of the Harbour Trustees published in the local papers?

I have read, as it so happens, the report in a local newspaper, and I find it does not differ in the least from the account which I have just given.

May I ask how it was an engineer should happen to stroll in five days before an election and promise these large sums of public money?

As I have already informed the Noble Lord, he came at the request of the local Harbour Trustees. I will read to the Noble Lord a question that was put to the trustees. A Mr. Green said—

"He thought it would have been more proper and less open to misapprehension if Mr. Cole's visit was delayed for a day or two."

I think I apprehend the Noble Lord's insinuation. The chairman answered:—

"I do not think that should be said at all. This has just come up in the ordinary course of our own negotiations with the Development Commissioners."

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the chairman referred to in his quotation is the president of the Wick Conservative Association?

Is it not also the case that the chairman stated that this gentleman came of his own accord, and not at any request?

I have already informed the Noble Lord twice that he came at the request of the Harbour Trustees.

Road Board (Appointments)

asked if it is the usual practice in the Government offices to acknowledge the receipt of applications for important appointments and to state whether such applications are to be considered or not; and why the Road Board do not follow this practice?

The reply to the first part of the hon. Member's question, so far as I am in a position to answer it, is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, I have no reason to believe that the Road Board intend to disregard the general practice.

If I call the hon. Gentleman's attention to a case, will he use his influence to see that the usual practice is followed?

Certainly; but I would remind the hon. Member that in cases where there are a large number of applications it may sometimes be very difficult, though every effort is made.

Cornwall Sea Fisheries Committee (Loans)

asked if the details of the terms on which the loans are to be made by the Cornwall Sea Fisheries Committee are to be finally settled by them, or are subject to the approval of the Treasury?

The Treasury have approved the proposal that the actual administration of the loans should be confided to a special Committee, and the detailed terms on which the loans are to be made will be devised by that Committee and not by the Sea Fisheries Committee. The extent to which the Treasury or the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries will exercise their general powers of control over the administration of the scheme will depend on the manner in which the arrangements adopted are found to work in practice.

Valuation Office (Dublin)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury what is the initial remuneration paid to temporary assistant surveyors in the Valuation Office, and is subsistence allowance granted when these officers are absent from head quarters, and, if so, to what amount; and will he state the number of temporary assistant surveyors working in the Valuation Office, Dublin, at salaries of between £8 and £10 a month without subsistence allowance?

The initial remuneration is £8 a month. A temporary assistant surveyor, when sent away on duty from his headquarters, i.e., from the town in which he is employed, would get subsistence allowance at the rate of 10s. or 7s. a night, according to circumstances. There are no temporary assistant surveyors at salaries of between £8 and £10 a month working in the Dublin Office.

Clerkenwell Police Court (Conviction of Mrs. Sarah Savage)

I beg to ask the Home Secretary a question of which I have given private notice, namely, whether his attention has been drawn to the sentence of six months passed upon Mrs. Sarah Savage at Clerkenwell Police Court the other day, whether it came out in the course of the trial, and has since been confirmed by independent investigators, that Mrs. Savage is a sober, hard-working decent woman, and that her reason for locking up her children was not due to cruelty, but only meant to preserve them from the perils of the streets, physical and moral, during their mother's absence from work; and whether under all the circumstances of the case he is prepared to recommend the remission of the remainder of the sentence?

By some mistake, in the post or otherwise, the hon. Member's notice has not reached me. I am unable to give an answer to his question, but I will inquire into the circumstances of the case.

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

May I ask the Prime Minister what business he proposed to take on Thursday?

Bills Presented

Mall Approach Improvement Bill

"To enable the London County Council to acquire certain lands and execute certain improvements in the city of Westminster, and for other purposes in connection therewith." Presented by Mr. WEDGWOOD BENN; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 82.]

Companies (Annual Returns) Bill

"To extend the period within which, under the Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908, companies having a share capital are required to complete and send to the Registrar of Companies in each year a list of the members and a summary giving certain particulars respecting the financial position, etc., of the company, together with a statement in the form of a balance sheet." Presented by Mr. FREDERICK HALL (Dulwich); supported by Sir Harry Samuel, Mr. Touche, Mr. Boyton, Mr. Shirley Benn and Major Gastrell; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 83.]

Supply

Navy (Supplementary Estimate, 1913–14)

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Contract Work, Victualling and Clothing for the Navy, Etc

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,500,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1914, for additional Expenditure on the following Navy Services, namely:—

£

Vote 2. Victualling and Clothing for the Navy

88,000

Vote 8. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.

Section I. Personnel

88,000

Section II. Matériel

733,000

Section III. Contract Work

1,125,000

Vote 9. Naval Armaments

320,000

Vote 10. Works, Buildings, and Repairs, etc.

60,000

Vote 11. Miscellaneous Effective Services

123,000

2,537,000

Less Surplus on Vote 1

37,000

Total

£2,500,000"

Mr. Churchill's Statement

4.0 P.M.

I think the Committee would consider it proper for me to introduce this Supplementary Estimate to the House with some words of general statement. It would obviously be undesirable, however, and, I think, contrary to the practice of the House, if we were to try to debate the large questions of naval policy which are appropriate to the general Estimates of the year, now soon to be presented. It would, I think, within the limits which you, Sir, have during recent Debates on the Supplementary Estimates so rigorously enforced, be impossible to do justice to the topics which might be at once so complicated and far-reaching; nothing but disadvantage could result from their partial or truncated statement. Still, a Supplementary Estimate of two and a half millions, raising the total expenditure on the Navy for the year to £48,800,000 is a serious event. It requires from the Minister and from the Government responsible full, clear and satisfactory explanation, justification both of the form and procedure adopted in all respects, and of the merits of the expenditure itself. It requires also from the Committee careful and unprejudiced attention, and a time appreciation of the conditions—the real modern conditions—which govern naval finance and administration. The form of Supplementary Estimate, which has been circulated, shows the expenditure under many heads and sub-heads. It is, of course, drawn up according to the rules and practices which prevail. I dare say, however, a good many Members have found—and, if I may judge by newspaper comments, other persons outside Parliament have found—a study of the items, however painstaking and however intelligent, does not readily afford any simple or general clue to what precisely has been going on. I propose, first of all, to explain shortly what are the causes of, and the reasons for, this additional expenditure. I hope then to be able to show that on their merits they are good reasons and unavoidable causes; I hope also to show that the procedure in regard to each branch of expenditure is covered by precedent, and has been in accordance with strict financial propriety, and that all necessary covering authority has been obtained, at every stage, and that Parliament has been informed at the earliest practicable moment of all the forseeable new charges. Now what are the causes of this Estimate, apart from the ordinary miscellaneous items which are in many Departments an unavoidable incident in Departmental administration? Apart from ordinary miscellaneous items, which make up but a very small part of the total for which we are now asking the House, there are five main causes which explain the sum of money that is now requested, and these five main causes are accounted for under the numerous sub-heads of the Vote, and each of them, or most of them, affect several heads and many sub-heads. I am going to give the House a few round figures which will, I think, make the position clearer. The first cause is an increase in expenditure upon the oil reserve; £500,000 is represented by that. The second cause is the new programme of aircraft, costing £250,000, in the present year. The third main cause is the increase in wages in the Dockyard, and in prices under the Victualling and Clothing Votes, which together amount to a little short of £200,000. The fourth cause is about £450,000—I am only giving round figures—due to the acceleration, or I fancy it would be more appropriate to say the beginning earlier, of three battleships in the 1913–14 Programme, to cover the temporary delay in the Canadian Naval Aid Bill. And the fifth cause, the largest cause, is due to the better progress by contractors in the shipyards all over the country in the execution of contracts for ships—ships authorised to be built by this House; that last cause accounts for £1,000,000—a net million—that is to say, under some heads of construction there have been savings, or what are called savings, and under other heads of construction there have been over earnings, and the net deficit on the year resulting from that is £1,000,000. Let me deal with these points seriatim. First, oil! I made a full statement to the House in July last on the subject of oil; I showed the advantages, the great and numerous advantages, which it offered in the construction of warships, and I showed also the difficulties, both business and military, and the dangers which were inseparable from the employment of fuel of this character, having regard to the fact that we possessed no large natural supply. I explained, so far as it was possible, the measures which we thought it necessary to take in order to steer our way through these difficulties and dangers in order to deal properly with the peculiar conditions of the oil market, and the dangers of great price combinations, and in this connection, above all, I demonstrated, I think to the satisfaction to the House as a whole, the vital necessity of building up without delay, ample oil reserves in this country to enable us to override price combinations in time of peace, and to come safely through military risks in time of war. I shall not, of course, go over that ground again, but I must remind the Committee of the length and detail in which it was then discussed. The Admiralty have from the very beginning adopted, and maintained, a standard of oil reserve proportionate to the number of oil-using ships laid down. That standard has been fixed as a result of elaborate calculations, both of the peace and war requirements in relation to the world's supply of oil. The standard is, of course, subject to revision from time to time as new circumstances and new tendencies manifest themselves, and we are here in a field where the conditions are novel and continually changing.

The actual quantity of oil which we keep in reserve, the standard which it is thought necessary to maintain, the distribution of oil between the different ports at home and abroad, and the prices at which our various contracts have been negotiated, are all according to regular Admiralty practice, long approved by this House, kept secret, and kept as secret as the standard of reserve of ammunition itself, and I must decline altogether to give exact particulars on such a subject. I have been asked a number of questions. I can only meet them by that answer; but I wish to give the House two main facts this after- noon, which will I think be quite sufficient for a full comprehension on the part of the Committee of all the issues likely to be put to the vote on the present occasion. First, the average price of oil, including freight, has more than doubled in the last two years. The Committee will see at once what a heavy burden a fact like that imposes upon the Admiralty at a time when we are not only purchasing for current consumption, but when we are accumulating a large initial reserve. That is the first fact; the second fact should, I think, be carefully considered by those who may have been perturbed by rumours which are very freely in circulation as to the scarcity of the Admiralty's supply of oil at the present time. We have now, to-day, this minute, safely stored in this country more than, I will not say how much more, but considerably more than three years' peace consumption for the whole of our existing very large oil-burning fleet. It would be possible for us to conduct the whole movement of the present British Fleet for three years, including the manœuvres, without bringing another tun of oil into the country, at the full extent of activity which has been observed in the present year.

When I say the present oil-using fleet I mean the present oil-using fleet in commission, and we keep, and shall continue to keep, either purchasing and storing in this country or else in view under definite war contracts or other effective arrangements sufficient oil to enable us to conduct a whole year of war. And that oil is proportioned from month to month, as are the reserves in this country to the number of oil-burning ships which are ready for commission, which are on the emergency list for commission. That is our present position, and month by month as the fleet increases the oil position will be fully maintained and even improved in the next twelve or fourteen months by Estimates and arrangements which I shall ask Parliament to approve when the General Estimates of the year come to be considered. I hope that will allay undue anxiety upon that subject, because I have seen some ridiculous fairy tales in the papers about the deep anxiety with which the Admiralty has been watching the advent of a particular ship to these shores carrying oil, owing to the narrowness of the margin on which we are working. Sir, we are not working upon a narrow margin in regard to any reserve of oil supply for the British Navy. During the summer of last year, on a resurvey of the general conditions of the oil situation we decided that it would be wise to make a certain increase in the initial quantity of reserve which we should have at the present time. We did not make, of course, any addition to the ultimate total of reserves; all that we did was to take measures which would enable us to have rather more in hand at the present time than we thought it necessary to have a year ago when the Estimates for 1913–14 were presented, and for that purpose £500,000 has been included in the Votes.

I should like to point out that although this increase of the oil reserve is paid for out of revenue under our existing financial practice, and has to be paid for out of revenue, the oil has not been consumed, and will not be consumed, but is stored away, and if the Navy went out of business to-morrow, if by some happy arrangement some moral awakening amongst the people enabled us to dispense altogether with Navy arrangement none of this valuable commodity would be wasted, and the whole of this oil could be sold at the market price, and could be applied to commercial purposes. Therefore, the money has not been spent in the ordinary sense, but it is a capital charge, if ever there was a capital charge, in return for which we have an asset of equivalent money value, and as the result of which we have a good and a sufficient margin of security in a commodity of vital importance. I shall not attempt this afternoon to enter upon the wide questions of naval policy which are connected with the use of oil instead of coal in so many of our ships. I discern in various quarters a disposition to suggest that the whole policy of using oil is wrong, and that I, personally, am responsible for it, and for the great expense involved in it. I will, it desired, deal fully with these complaints when the general Estimates of next year are presented. Meanwhile, I will content myself by saying that with regard to the expenditure of this year upon oil, both for consumption and reserve, that no vessel for the design of which I, and the present Board of Admiralty, have been responsible, has yet reached the water, and that not a ton of oil has been required this year as a consequence of any measures taken by me; and, further, that next year, for every ton of oil for consumption and reserve required on account of vessels for which I have been responsible, five tons will be required for those which were built before my time, and for which I have to provide. Let me make it clear, however, that the present Board of Admiralty agree fully with the decisions in this respect which were taken by the Board of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and that in making clear the limits of my own responsibilities, I do not in the least impugn, but, on the contrary, I endorse and carry forward the work and policy of my predecessor.

There is one other point in regard to oil to which I will refer. It was suggested last year by the Noble Lord the Member for Portsmouth (Lord C. Beresford), who is not in his place to-day—[An HON. MEMBER: "He is ill."]—I am not making any reproach that he is not here—it was suggested by him last year that the policy which the Admiralty have followed during my tenure in regard to oil-burning ships was contrary to the recommendations of the Royal Commission. Both the series of reports and the minutes of evidence of that Commission, except perhaps the final report which I am now considering, are strictly confidential for military reasons, and also because the bulk of the evidence given was given on the distinct understanding that secrecy would be observed. I have, however, received from the chair man of the Commission, Lord Fisher, the following statement, which has been agreed upon unanimously by the whole Commission. That Commission, I must remind the Committee, contains some of the most distinguished men of this country, and certainly the highest authority that could be convened in this country, to consider questions connected with oil supplies. This is what Lord Fisher writes, and I will lay the document from which I take this extract on the Table:— In asking the House to approve the action of the Government in spending £500,000 on increasing the oil reserves of the moment—or, rather, ante-dating our accumulation of a certain standard of reserves—I think I can claim to prove that we have acted throughout on the highest expert authority; that we have taken in good time all the measures which are necessary to assure what is undoubtedly a very difficult and complex operation, and I think I have defined, within exiguous limits, the personal responsibility which I have for the present scale of expenditure in regard to oil. So much for that.

I now come to air. We were very late in starting the British Air Service both by sea and by land. A year ago we were very far behind France and Germany in aeroplanes, and were practically unprovided with airships. I believe it will be found that our caution and tardiness in airship construction will ultimately be fully justified. Great progress has, however, been made in every direction by the British Air Service during the year, and if the House of Commons assents to the provision for 1914–15 which the Government recommend, and which we shall ask for at the proper time, very considerable results, not only of a positive, but of a relative character, ought to be attained by the end of that year. The Naval Air Service has now reached a point when, although still in an experimental stage, it has already begun to share the military responsibilties of the Royal Navy, and is about to become an effective factor both in Fleet operations and coats defence. In these matters the initial outlay is very heavy. Everything has to be provided at the beginning—sheds, plant, appliances, land, as well as the actual instruments of aviation. Although the expense in the first few years will be heavy, and although in its embryonic stage you cannot point to any specific reduction under other heads of naval charge which could be made in consequence of the development of the Air Service, yet I am sure that ultimately the development of the Naval Air Service will be productive of considerable reductions in other classes of naval weapon.

As a result of a thorough examination of what had been and what was being done by other countries, and of the numbers and quality of aircraft, both aeroplanes and airships, already possessed by them, and in view particularly of the considerable new German naval air programme, which was announced after the British Estimates of last year were framed and presented to the House—in view of all these facts, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War and I felt it our duty last July, upon the representations of our expert advisers, to make further proposals to the Cabinet for increasing the Air Service, and after a very full, and as the House may believe, a very severe and searching investigation of the whole subject, my right hon. Friend and I both obtained authority to take what we considered the necessary measures. So far as the Admiralty was concerned, the principal expense has been caused by the provision of airships and airship sheds and the necessary stores and appliances for working airships, in all of which we were almost totally deficient. A considerable new programme of airship construction has been approved, contracts for which have been already made and are being and will be executed as fast as possible. We considered it essential, not merely to obtain Airships by purchase from abroad, but to interest British constructors in their manufacture, thus bringing to this country, if I may use a phrase which will give satisfaction to hon. Members opposite, the art as well as the article. A contract has been made with Messrs. Vickers for one large and three smaller non-rigid dirigible airships. The rigid, which is approximately a Zeppelin of the latest type—I mean it is on the same lines and of the same description as the latest type of Zeppelin—is being built in England, and a considerable portion of the three non-rigids are being constructed here also.

A second large Astra Torres airship of the non-rigid type has been ordered in France, and will shortly be delivered, and a contract has been signed with Messrs. Armstrong for three large semi-rigid airships of an Italian design, which affords great promise, called the Porlanini. The first of these will be constructed abroad, and the other will be made by Messrs. Armstrong in this country. Large sheds have had to be constructed by both firms at a heavy capital outlay, and a portion of this charge is of course reflected in the price of the ships. We are building two additional airship sheds, one in the Medway near Chatham, and the other in Norfolk. This programme, though considerable, is modest in comparison with what is being and has been done abroad, and we cannot pretend that it competes effectively either with French or German achievements and exertions. Having regard, however, to our great and growing superiority in the seaplane and in all connected with its development, we consider that the additional airship provision which we now ask the House to approve is, under present conditions, sufficient. Notice of this new programme was given to Parliament on the 17th July last, but the Estimates had not been framed nor were the details settled when Parliament rose, and this is the first occasion when I can present them to the House. The total cost of the eight airships and their sheds is £475,000, of which, approximately, £200,000 falls in the currency of the present year. All this, together with the additional expenditure on seaplanes, makes a total of £260,000, which constitutes the second main cause of the Supplementary Estimate I am now charged with presenting to the Committee. The third cause requires only the briefest mention from me. The increase in the wages of the dockyard men was necessary to maintain a fair corresponding, after making full allowance for the advantages of Government service, with the general rates of wages in the shipyards of the country. It was, indeed, also to allay a serious and growing discontent on the part of a large and reputable body of skilled workers engaged in an absolutely vital branch of employment. The increases which have been made in the wages follow and accompany a variety of other concessions which have taken place during the last few years. They have, on the whole, been very well received, judging by reports I have obtained from the naval centres, and they were fully explained to the House by my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Dr. Macnamara) on 27th May last with, I think, general approval. The increase in prices, which accounts for £100,000, is automatic, and I can no more control it than I can control the weather. For these two heads, wages and prices, there is £200,000 required in the Supplementary Estimate.

I come to the great field of new construction, on which there has been an overspending of about £1,450,000. This overspending arises from two causes, the first deliberate, the second automatic. The first is due to the decision taken by the Cabinet, and duly announced to the House of Commons on 5th June last, to accelerate, or perhaps it would be more correct to say to begin earlier, three battleships of the 1913–14 Programme in consequence of the failure of the Canadian Naval Aid Bill to pass into law. The expenditure from this cause amounts to £437,000. No one, I think, can say that this proposal came last June as a shock to the House. I fancy, indeed, that a good many of my hon. Friends on this side of the House were relieved to find that the expedient adopted by the Government on the recommendation of the Admiralty did not involve any direct addition to our declared programme, and in no way saddled us with the expense of building three extra battleships or committed us to do so at any future time. The method adopted involved no increase in the aggregate liabilities of the Navy, nor any departure from the programme which maintained the 60 per cent. standard which had been so often announced to the House. It merely meant that £450,000, approximately, was spent on these ships in 1913–14 instead of being spent on them two years later, and any increase in the expenditure in 1913 will, of course, be balanced by a compensating and corresponding reduction in the charges for 1915 and partially for 1916. That is all that I have to say on this part of the subject to-day. Since we came to the decision last June, the temporary relief afforded by the acceleration of these three battleships has very nearly passed away, and we now know that it will not be possible during the present year for the Canadian Naval Aid Bill to be pressed forward. When the General Estimates are introduced, I shall deal fully with the measures which the Government will propose to meet and cover that situation, but it would not. I think, be possible, though I have hesitated on the subject, to deal with that question effectively on the Supplementary Estimate, for this reason: I must survey the general Navy strength of the British Empire, and I must deal in particular with the Mediterranean situation, and I do not think it would be convenient to the Committee as a whole, nor indeed suitable to the present discussion, having regard to the limitations within which we are very properly confined, to enter upon it at the present time. So that is all I have to say on the fourth main cause. The first is oil, the second is air, the third is wages and prices, and the fourth is the acceleration of the Canadian ships, and on those heads I have accounted for £500,000, £260,000, £200,000, and £437,000, respectively.

I come now to the last and most important feature in the Supplementary Estimates. I mean the net over-earning by the contractors of £1,000,000 on Votes 8 and 9, and in a lesser degree, an insignificant degree, on Vote 10. Here I am on very strong ground, because I warned the House most plainly in introducing the Estimates last year of the possibility that greater progress would be made by the contractors in executing existing contracts than we had allowed for. Let me read to the House exactly what I said on 26th March, 1913:— final treatment, and are delayed in delivery. This reflects immediately upon the programme of hull structure, which is kept waiting for the armour. Large castings, as hon. Members below the Gangway will realise, frequently fail, and the failure of a stern-post or a stem-post of a great ship may produce delays of many weeks in the earning power of contractors upon a great ship. Trade disputes interfere seriously from time to time with the progress on boilers and machinery. Again, the result is reflected upon the slow progress of the hull. The same is true of gun-machinery and gun-mountings, and again the result is reflected in the hull and, of course, in the Estimates. Any of these sectional troubles may suddenly be cleared away, and progress will then proceed at such a rate that arrears are overtaken; but then, perhaps, the hulls cannot be placed, the riveters may have become dispersed, and the even rate of delivery, so essential to the smooth and punctual construction of a warship, is destroyed.

We are at no special disadvantage, for these difficulties are inseparable from the construction of these vast machines of war, which are better undertaken in this country than in any other country of the world. Sooner or later, of course, all these delays and difficulties are overcome, but in the process, and upon this I respectfully ask the Committee to fix their attention, there are very large fluctuations, all of which powerfully affect finance, now under this head and now under that; and sometimes the variations in the monthly statements to the Admiralty show differences between one head and another in these sections of the Vote by as much as several hundred thousands of pounds. Across the whole of this vast fluctuating business of production under so many heads, which goes forward, on the whole, so successfully, and which in the end combines so harmoniously the House of Commons, in its wisdom, draw the arbitrary line of the 31st March. No doubt that is a necessary condition of annual finance, and I bow to it with reverence. But it is surely absurd to reproach the Admiralty with miscalculation, and even to found a charge of financial misdemeanour against a Minister, because of variations from the original Estimate which are to be found in the presentation of accounts at any particular moment! Those variations are inevitable at a particular moment in a process so essentially uncertain and variable as warship construction. Of course, they are all well within the limit of existing commitments and contracts. If they do not mature now they will mature a few months ahead. Certainly, if it were held to be a grave fault—if the House were to take the position which I see has been taken in some quarters where I read with attention—that it is a grave financial error and miscalculation to have variations of this character, then I am bound to say I think we should be forced to abandon altogether the attempt to give in advance detailed information under all these sub-heads in the Estimates. What we should have to do—I do not think anybody would take the responsibility if it were going to be a cause of complaint of making prophecies in regard to all these fluctuating matters—we should have to ask, on account of the general body of outstanding shipbuilding liabilities, for a Vote on Account well within the limits of the total amount Parliament had sanctioned, and then present details at the end of the year in the Appropriation Account. I wish respectfully to tell the Committee that, while we do our very best to give beforehand the best forecast of earnings under the different heads, the variations from outside causes on all account are so continuous that it is to the total aggregate of money taken for shipbuilding rather than to this specific allocation between different sub-heads and heads of charges that the Committee should look to form a fair and trustworthy judgment of the progress of naval expenditure.

Then I pass from variations between different heads to the generally increasing volume of charges. And here it may be said by some critics, "If you thought there was a possibility of this extra money being required, you should have asked for it in the original Estimate, and then at the end of the year, if any portion was unspent, it could have passed through the medium of the Old Sinking Fund in reduction of the National Debt." I do not agree with that opinion. I do not think the Committee would agree that it is a wise criticism. It is a very foolish thing artificially to inflate British Naval Estimates, giving an appearance abroad of expansion which does not correspond with actual fact. It is a bad thing also for any public Department, any great spending Department, to be left at the end of the year with a large surplus through under-spendings on the different heads of charge. However carefully and rigorously financial national control is maintained—and I am confident in my ability to prove to the Committee and to this House that it has never been more efficiently and rigorously maintained than it has been under my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty during the last two years—however carefully it is maintained, it is always found in practice that the possession of large balances by spending Departments at the end of the year is not conducive to the highest form of economy. Judging by the experience which I had in two previous years on this Vote, in both of which large sums were left unearned, and by the general position of the labour market, the great congestion which prevailed in the shipyards, and the condition of the industrial world generally, I made, deliberately and avowedly, a conservative Estimate, and I told Parliament, at the time, as the quotation I have read shows, plainly and frankly what I was doing. I have seen the most extraordinary statements put forward on this subject in quarters where, from the authorative tone adopted, one would expect to find some care for the truth and some knowledge of the facts. It has been suggested that no sooner had Parliament risen in August last than I issued orders to the contractors to accelerate the construction of their ships, and so incurred, without the consent of the House of Commons—and, as was amiably suggested, behind the backs of my colleagues, and in contravention of a Cabinet decision—a deliberate and unauthorised charge on the taxpayers. I am here to-day in my place respectfully to answer such a charge if it should be preferred in any quarter, and I can do so the more effectively because I have no power, even if I had the wicked will—I have no power—it is not physically possible, even if I had the authority and the power—to accelerate the completion of Government shipbuilding. The utmost which I can do is to enjoin punctuality, and I have been very far from successful in enforcing that.

Although better progress has been made this year than could be foreseen, the shipbuilding programme is still largely in arrear. I do not mean largely in arrear in a military sense—it is a matter of a few months' average over the whole programme—but, in a financial sense, largely in arrear. Many charges which should have been extinguished this year, and in former years have, from physical, industrial economic causes, been so far retarded that they will fall on next year, and, to a lesser extent, the year after. The period through which we have been passing in late years is exceptional in Admiralty experience. There have been great and numerous labour disturbances. We are still under the influence, and shall be for many months, of the far-reaching dislocation of the great coal strike. We have passed through a period of extraordinary trade activity in the shipyard, and consequent scarcity of labour, and there has also been the feature—I am not criticising it, still it affects the execution of contracts—of short hours and irregular attendance at the yards on the part of the workmen. There is an enormous volume of shipbuilding—as great and even greater than it has ever been at one time, and it is shipbuilding of a far more complex character, a far more intricate character than there has even been before. Only two years ago, let me remind the Committee, contractors failed to earn all the money provided by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary by nearly £2,000,000. I do not remember hearing any complaints on that occasion about miscalculation or financial dismeanour of the kind which have been levelled at me at the present time. On the contrary, this short earning by contractors of £2,000,000 was euphemistically and cheerfully described as savings, and it was, of course, surrendered to the Treasury according to rule. Meanwhile the liability remained absolutely un-diminished, and moved forward with the certainty that it would mature later. In fact, if my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not had the forethought, in the face of a great deal of Parliamentary opposition from both sides of the House, to put away £1,500,000 of the surrendered money in the Exchequer balances, if he had not had the forethought to do that at the time when, as I remember, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire was vieing with the most severe economists in favour of the transference of the whole of this sum to the amortisation of the National debts, our position would be, perhaps I ought not to say so satisfactory, but it would be even more unsatisfactory than it is at the present time.

5.0 P.M.

I should like before I sit down to deal for one moment with what I may call the anatomy of Naval expenditure under the system of annual finance. All great ships of war affect three and many of them four years of estimates. Almost all the vessels, great or small, affect three financial years. Once a contract has been signed for a ship, big or small, or for a dock or any other large work of construction, the Minister responsible has no power whatever to prevent the contractors earning their full instalments at the time specified in the contract. Hitherto the difficulty has been to prevent unnecessary delay, and I have been very frequently asked, in this House, why the penalty clauses have not been enforced against contractors who are in arrear in their work. In such matters I can only act on legal advice, and no case has arisen in my experience, so far, where the penalty has been exacted. But to reverse the process and try to procure retardation, even if such were justified on military grounds, is practically impossible. The contractor would immediately say, "I am perfectly ready to slow down, or to suspend work altogether, on your ships if you will pay compensation for the disorganisation of my yard, and the disappointment of the earnings on which I was counting, and the dispersal of my skilled workmen." But, short of leaving the ship rusting on the stocks and paying compensation for the contractor, there is no way in which the House can avoid paying the bills for contracts definitely entered into when they fall due. And it seems to be unreasonable—it is the first time I have spoken on this subject for a long time—it seems to me unreasonable, and even, if I may say so, unintelligible, to complain of the Minister who is for the time being responsible, as if the maturing of these liabilities was due to some deep and ineradicable wickedness on his part, or as if it indicated some new and vast departure in naval policy. It is the duty of the House of Commons to pay great attention—much more attention than it has done in past years—to the proposals for new contruction—to the programme for new construction each year. It is therefore their duty, instead of embarking on vague lamentations on the subject of expenditure, to require of the Government, and we shall be quite prepared to supply them, good reasons for every vessel and for the vessels of every class included in the programme. That is the great motor muscle—if I may quote the phrase used by Mr. Gladstone—of naval finance. But, having done that, having dealt with the new programme and sanctioned the new commitments, the House ought to recognise that the liability has been incurred absolutely, and will have to be defrayed by this country just as liabilities incurred by private individuals have to be defrayed within a reasonable period of time after they fall due. It is no use complaining of the expenditure after it has been incurred, or blaming the Minister, as if he were a rogue, when the inevitable consequences of a Parliamentary decision materialise. It ought really to be a matter of rejoicing when the programmes are executed without undue delay, and when, in consequence, the volume of outstanding liabilities is reduced. We are asking now for a net increase on this head from these causes of £1,000,000. If that £1,000,000 were not paid for in the Supplementary Estimate of this year, for which provision can be made, it would have to be paid for in next year, and would simply roll forward to increase the already congested Estimates of 1914–15.

To sum up, the only new service in this Supplementary Estimate which involves an extension of programme, which involves a question of principle, which incurs an extension of liability, is the £260,000 for aircraft. All the rest is either money which would have to be paid sooner or later under the existing commitments, but, being paid now, will not have to be paid hereafter, or else it is an automatic increase through wages and prices which are a necessary consequence of market conditions. That is the fact. I shall recur, if the House will permit me, to these larger aspects of naval finance when I present the main Estimates, because it will be found that they contain the key to the present conditions and the means by which private Members can judge in advance of future Naval Estimates, and a means far more effective for both those purposes than can be found by a study of the immense voluminous detailed Estimates which are presented in the regular course. I do not, however, desire now to anticipate that statement, and it would not be proper for me to do so. I have, therefore, said no more than is necessary to satisfy the Committee, as I trust I have done, on the particular matter we have in hand this afternoon. I trust that I have satisfied them that the additional expenditure for which we now ask "has been properly incurred under Parliamentary rules and according to good precedents, that it has been wisely incurred for good and important reasons, and that it was indis- pensable both to the maintenance of our Naval Service and to the punctual discharge of the obligations of the State.

I desire to put to you, Mr. Whitley, a point of Order. I take it, from what the right hon. Gentleman has said, that a considerable part of the sum involved in this so-called Supplementary Estimate has been spent, therefore, I want to ask you whether it is not a violation of constitutional practice and of the privileges of this House that the Government, without the authority of Parliament, should have spent money. I submit to you that this is not a Supplementary Estimate, but an Appropriation-in-Aid, and that the Government ought to be so indemnified by means of an Act indemnifying them, and not in a Supplementary Estimate.

This is a similar point to one that was raised on a much smaller Vote last year. It is this: Must a Supplementary Estimate in all cases deal only with sums which remain to be paid and of which no part has yet been paid to contractors or otherwise? I can only be guided in that matter by the long practice of the House. It is clear that in practically all cases of Supplementary Estimates payments may be made, and have been made from time to time, during the six months the House has not been sitting, and the fact that part of the money has been paid cannot in any way vitiate the provision of it in a Supplementary Estimate. Of course, what would happen if the House did not authorise the payment is another matter, which does not come within my purview.

No. The amount is a matter for hon. Members to take into consideration, but not for me.

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is obvious, in view of the past improvements in regard to Supplementary Estimates and the necessary restrictions which are placed upon these Debates, that it would be impossible for us on this occasion to deal adequately even with the subjects which are relevant to this Vote, still less would it be possible for us to cover the whole ground upon which it may be, and probably will be necessary, for us later on to criticise, challenge and possibly attack the whole naval policy of the Government. As the right hon. Gentleman truly says, this must be in its nature a truncated discussion; therefore, it is necessary that we should defer, until we can actually see and weigh, not only in relation to each other, but in relation to the whole problem of naval defence, the proposals of the Government, otherwise, on an occasion like this, we should have to argue very largely upon surmises and assumptions, and to that extent should be largely beating the air. It is obvious that we have no alternative—and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition agrees with this—but to postpone for a short time—I assume it will not be more than a week or ten days, or thereabouts—our main criticism of the Government's policy. I feel bound to make that point clear at the outset, because I do not want either the right hon. Gentleman or the Committee to infer for a moment that because we do not develop the criticism which we should feel bound to make, even upon what we know of the right hon. Gentleman's policy at the present time, and because we are precluded from formulating that protest now, that we are in any sense consenting parties to the policy of which these Supplementary Estimates are a preliminary and, to some extent, a disquieting symptom. Therefore the remarks of those of us who take part in this Debate must be of a somewhat desultory and superficial nature, and we must deal very largely, not with questions of principle, but with points of detail that arise on particular items of the Vote.

Here I would like to interpolate, before I come to the actual items, a few remarks upon what the right hon. Gentleman said about our general system of finance, which is mainly responsible for producing this kind of Supplementary Estimate. The production of this Estimate is largely the result of what must be generally agreed by the Committee to be an absurd financial system—a system under which, if any money that has been voted by the House with full knowledge of all the facts of the Government's policy is not all spent within the limits of the financial year, owing it may be to labour troubles or other causes which may be quite unforseen at the time the money is voted, the surplus: goes back to the Treasury and has to be voted again in succeeding years, and, as a result, successive Naval Estimates appear much bigger to outside observers than they really are. That has an evil effect, because it causes anxiety and counter operations in foreign countries and leads to trouble; moreover, it results in the general Budget of the year showing a false surplus.

The system to which the hon. Member refers is quite well understood abroad.

It may be quite well understood abroad, but I do not think it is followed abroad in the case of foreign budgets. When the hon. Member says it is quite understood, it depends upon understood by whom. It may be understood by financial experts who have made a special study of our system, but it is certainly not understood by the chauvinists in foreign countries who take these inflated Estimates as an indication that we are doing a great deal more than, we actually are, and the Estimates are consequently made an excuse for inciting counter expenditure in foreign countries. To that extent it is a system which is not only financially absurd, but is internationally harmful. Apart from that, it is confusing to the taxpayer who has to find the money. He finds he is taxed twice over, and he gets altogether false ideas of the actual expenditure on the Navy. I believe that in no other important European country is this system followed, and that the almost universal practice is, when money is voted for Naval services, that if it is not spent it is carried over and is available for the Naval Department until they have discharged all their liabilities. On looking at a reply which was given by the right hon. Gentleman the other day, I believe I am correct in saying, that during the eight years this Government has been in office over £3,000,000 sterling voted by this House for the purposes of the Navy has been surrendered to the Treasury. Profiting by that experience, it is, of course, a temptation to an astute Minister like the right hon. Gentleman to underestimate. He said just now he had deliberately made a conservative Estimate. That is equivalent to saying that last year he deliberately underestimated the amount of money that would probably be spent because he did not want to experience the fate of his predecessors who had had on many occasions to surrender large sums of money which had been voted but unspent for the services of the Fleet. He said, very truly, that his predecessor, the Home Secretary, had on one occasion to surrender no less than £2,000,000.

He pointed out that no attack was made upon that underspending by any of the hon. Gentlemen who formed the reduction of armaments group. I suppose the reason is that the Home Secretary is such a general favourite on that side of the House that it was felt that that should be passed over in his case. At any rate, the right hon. Gentleman is wiser in his generation. He is not likely to make that mistake again. This year he deliberately underestimated, and that is the true origin of this Supplementary Estimate.

I now come to the items of which the Estimate is made up. The first with which the right hon. Gentleman dealt was the question of oil. It is difficult to exaggerate the magnitude of this problem of oil fuel for the Fleet. We know from answers which have been given recently that there are no fewer than 166 vessels built or building for the Fleet which burn oil fuel only, and can only burn oil fuel, and there are, in addition, some eighty ships which are fitted to burn either coal or oil, and the right hon. Gentleman has established beyond any possibility of doubt the superiority of oil as a fuel for the service of the Fleet, if other things are equal, that is of the price and the availability of supply is in any way comparable to coal, but unfortunately that is not the case. He has shown that since the original policy was adopted, the price of oil has been forced up to an altogether fanciful figure, and that it is four or five times as expensive as coal at present.

I am not familiar with the figures of the Admiralty contract, but, at any rate, it is not denied that it is enormously more expensive than coal at present, and there must be considerable anxiety in the mind of the Admiralty and anyone else as to the available sources of supply. Even since the right hon. Gentleman spoke on the subject last year, there have been great changes, and mostly to our disadvantage. The price, I believe, has gone up still further, and certainly the sources of supply have in one very important respect been narrowed. The right hon. Gentleman told us a good deal last year about the great contract which had been made with the Mexican Eagle Oil Company, and he said, in defending that contract, quite unnecessarily as I thought at the time, that it was indispensable to the proper solution of the oil fuel question. I think he might have told us on this occasion how that matter stands now, what has become of that contract, what oil is, as a matter of fact, available in Mexico at present, and what prospect there is of supplies on any considerable scale being forthcoming from that country. There has been a great change there and we ought to know what substitute the Admiralty has been able to find for the great and important area so indispensable, as the right hon. Gentleman said, to the solution of the problem, which has been unhappily withdrawn very largely from availability at the present time. The right hon. Gentleman has, of course, made the situation sound as attractive as he can, but I cannot believe that it does not contain elements of considerable anxiety even to him, and certainly rumours, I do not know how well founded, but based upon very positive indications, as to the recent curtailment of the movements of that portion of the Fleet which burns oil fuel only, and the announcement that the Naval Manœuvres this year are to be abandoned in order, as the right hon. Gentleman said, to effect an economy, suggest that the available reserve of oil, and the price which it has reached at present, have been largely determining factors in these unfortunate restrictions. To that extent I cannot help feeling that the present situation is disquieting, and future prospects equally so.

I am glad, at any rate, to learn that of the £750,000 contained in this Estimate for oil, £500,000 is apparently devoted to strengthening and increasing our reserve of oil fuel. On that point I think the right hon. Gentleman's statement was a little ambiguous. He said, of course quite rightly, that the amount of reserve must be treated as confidential. No one would quarrel with that, but he said that the amount in stock was calculated to satisfy both the peace and war requirements. He told us as regards peace requirements that he had sufficient oil for three years already stored. As regards war requirements he did not tell us that he had a year's supply stored. He said he had contracts made to some extent—the oil was in sight—but on asking him a question across the floor of the House it appeared that the standard of one year's requirements was based only on oil-burning ships which are actually in commission at present.

No. I said most distinctly that we maintained these standards and more than these standards—I do not say how much more—from month to month with regard to the continually growing volume of the oil-burning fleet.

The great ships which will be the chief oil burners of the future are not in commission at present, but will be in commission, I imagine, within the course of the next twelve months. When they come into commission there will be an immense increase in the amount required continually for purposes of war.

The hon. Gentleman is really unintentionally misleading the House. The flotilla will be the consumers of oil. The five great ships will consume only very small proportions of the total oil consumption of the year.

Of course, the oil-burning destroyers are so very much more numerous that I have no doubt it is those very vessels which, according to statements we have seen recently in the newspapers, have been withdrawn from their natural activities. If it is not because the reserve of oil is insufficient, it must be because the price of oil is so high that the Admiralty is not prepared to spend the money.

Does the right hon. Gentleman tell us that there has been no curtailment of the activities of the oil-burning destroyers of the Home Fleet? He does not. That is the point I was making, and that is the disquieting symptom which suggests that there is more anxiety in connection with this subject of oil supply than he has given us to believe to day. He asks for approval of the whole policy of oil fuel for the Fleet, but stated that he did not think this was the proper occasion on which to discuss it, as he intended to make a fuller statement on the Estimates. I hope when that time comes he will make these points more clear than he has done to-day, because, in spite of what ho says, we cannot help feeling that there is real cause for anxiety in the somewhat premature step, as we think, taken by the Admiralty in embarking, upon such a large scale, upon this new and great departure in the method of fuelling the Fleet, and it is difficult, in view of what has occurred during the last three years, not to come to the conclusion that it would have been less rash and less premature if the Admiralty had gone more slowly in this matter, and had waited, at any rate, before developing it on the scale which now obtains, until the Royal Commission had further reported, and until the certainty of adequate supplies had been more effectually guaranteed. That is all that I wish to say on the subject of oil to-day.

I now come to the second item, that of air. The right hon. Gentleman admits, very truly, what we have repeatedly impressed upon him and the Committee during the last two years, that the Admiralty has been very late in beginning to deal with this great question. We are justified to that extent in the criticism we have made in the past, but that does not prevent us from welcoming, as we do, this new sign of activity on the part of the Admiralty. I think, possibly, from a purely financial point of view, it may be difficult to justify embarking upon an entirely new programme in this way, in a Supplementary Estimate, but I am much more concerned with our getting the equipment that we need than I am in this question of economic pedantry. I will leave this to be dealt with by hon. Members opposite, who are the principal opponents at present of the Supplementary Estimate. I will only say in regard to that that we are relieved to know that both the Admiralty and the War Office, in connection with this matter of the Air Service, have been showing greatly increased activity.

Then I come to the third item mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman. That was the acceleration of the three ships which, as a temporary expedient only, as was emphasised by the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the Government several times last Session, has been accelerated to replace the ships which we had expected to receive from the Canadian Government. On 17th July, when the matter was last discussed, the right hon. Gentleman told us that by accelerating these three ships they would be ready by the third quarter of the year 1915. Surely that must be impossible now. Does the right hon. Gentleman expect to have them as early as that? It is clear that if these ships were laid down early in November—that was the earliest date any of them were laid down—they cannot possibly be completed by the third quarter of 1915. If they are ready by the beginning of 1916, if they are even ready two years hence, that is about the most one can expect, and therefore the advantage which will have been gained by this acceleration will not be the six or seven months which was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman when he last spoke, but at the most two or three months, and whatever that advantage has been it has, as a matter of fact, practically evaporated already. It will certainly have evaporated in the course of this month, and consequently the deficiency which was to be met by this temporary expedient will recur almost immediately. It has got to be remedied. It is a problem which is both urgent and immediate, because, as the right hon. Gentleman told us again and again in varied forms, these three ships, the place of which is being temporarily filled by the ships which are contained in this Estimate to-day, are absolutely essential to the whole world needs of the Empire in the Spring of 1916 onward. Certainly if they were necessary when the statement was made, they are not less necessary now, because there has not only been no decrease but there has been an actual development of foreign shipbuilding programmes.

Therefore, the whole of this action which the right hon. Gentleman has taken, and which he has crystallised in the Supplementary Estimate, would be absolutely futile and useless unless it is followed when he produces his main Estimates by action of a somewhat drastic character. I know that we cannot discuss that to-day, and I do not wish to do so. But I wish to say that unless the right hon. Gentleman takes one of only two courses open to him—one of them being the only practical, sane, and safe course—that is, to lay down three extra ships at once—almost immediately when the Estimates are produced, it now seems to the world at large that we are going in the spring of 1916 to allow our standard of strength to fall below the minimum security which the Admiralty itself has laid down. To that extent we should be simply inviting attack, or, at any rate, diplomatic pressure which we should not be in a position to resist. It would not be possible on this occasion to debate the step which we believe the Government ought to take. We shall do that, I hope, next week, or the week following. The only real question at issue in the meantime is whether the Government are going to keep the pledges given repeatedly to the House of Commons and the country in regard to this matter or not. This will soon be disclosed, but in the meantime, considering the character and the insistence of these pledges, I think it is absolutely unthinkable that rumours which we have heard in regard to surrender on the part of the Government to the ill-informed clamour of a section of their own supporters—

On a point of Order. Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman to be allowed to discuss the whole of the naval policy of the Government on this Supplementary Vote?

The hon. Member has himself suggested that another occasion would be the right one. Still, I think his last remark on that subject was going beyond the scope of the present Debate. I am sure it would be for the general convenience that the question of world policy should be deferred.

I am exceedingly sorry if I have in any way gone beyond the scope of the Debate. It was not my desire to do so. My passing remark, which I do not wish to develop, was merely in anticipation of next year's Estimates, and to implore the Government not to listen to the ill-informed and ignorant clamour of a section of their own supporters.

It would naturally lead to other things being said on the same subject if the hon. Member were to pursue that line.

I hope to have plenty of opportunity of saying what I have to say on another occasion. I think I have now touched upon all the specific points raised by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech. They nearly all raise great questions of policy if the occasion was one on which we could debate them. I think he has made out a case for the passage of this Estimate by the House, and if we make any general attack upon it at all, it is merely this: we do not consider it is as large as it should be in order to carry out fully, or anything like fully, the pledges which he and the Government as a whole have made the House of Commons and the country.

May I submit for your consideration, Mr. Chairman, this point? My hon. Friend (Mr. Lee) referred to the sum required for acclerating the programme, and in order to meet the deficit caused by the Canadian Bill not going through. If we criticise the Supplementary Estimate in any way, and endeavour to show that the policy of accelerating in this particular was not satisfactory, we may have to refer to the whole programme, and to the necessity of building ships to take the place of the three Canadian ships which will be needed at the end of 1916, and I wish to know whether we are to be cramped in that particular, because I do not think we can adequately discuss this Supplementary Estimate unless we are to be allowed to show what the effect of it will be in 1916?

It is certainly very far from my desire to cramp the discussion in any way on an Estimate of this magnitude. It seems to me that what the hon. Member has referred to would come within the scope of the discussion.

May I have your ruling on a point? The right hon. Gentleman said, in the course of his speech, that £200,000 had been expended on increased wages, principally in the dockyards and prices. According to your ruling, when the hon. Member for Fareham was speaking, it seems to me that certain matters touched upon by the right hon. Gentleman are not to be debated today. It occurs to me that many of us here may wish to make some observations on the increase of wages in the dockyards. A great many of us think that it is insufficient. I wish to know whether a debate of this kind it to take place to-day or whether it is to be postponed to another occasion?

Although the right hon. Gentleman said that part of one of the items was caused by an increase in wages, I understood him to say that that was announced on 17th May last. That was before the Estimates for the year were passed.

No, Sir. It is a new matter which has not yet been debated in the House. It has been announced to the House, but I do not think the actual increase of wages has been fully debated by the House.

It was announced on 17th May last, and it could have been debated. If that is the case, I know of no change which has been made since then. I do not think that this is the occasion for debating the matter. It will be open for discussion in about a fortnight, when it will come before the Committee in another form.

I shall do my best to keep strictly within the confines of your ruling, and I shall therefore postpone until next week or the week after my observations on matters which we cannot relevantly discuss to-day. When the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lee) accused us of ignorance, I thought about the state of his own mind in 1909. I think it is a great pity that these things should be said across the floor of the House; but I am perfectly certain that the hon. Gentleman thought it necessary to say that certain Members on this side of the House were ignorant and ill-informed.

Unfortunately I was not able to develop my remarks. If I had, I should have made it plain to the hon. Member that I did not class him as one of the uninformed. I referred to certain events in the past.

I wish to say that next week or the week after we shall be perfectly able to defend ourselves. There were certain points in the speech of the First Lord of the Admiralty, the discussion of which I think we might also conveniently postpone until we are able to discuss them in connection with general policy. So far as I am concerned, I propose to do that with reference to his statement about aircraft, and I shall confine myself at the present moment to the expression of a pious hope that, as he has told us he is going to Messrs. Vickers and Company for a substantial supply of aircraft, we shall have no more "Mayfly" ships from Messrs. Vickers, and I hope also that the inspectors will do their work better than they did on that occasion. The general policy of going to Messrs. Vickers, and the attitude the Admiralty have taken up, will be better discussed, so far as we are concerned, when we are in a position to discuss general policy and Admiralty administration as a whole. I want, in a general way, to say that the Estimates before us now are not Supplementary Estimates at all. It is simply a farce for any Minister to come and ask us for an extra sum of money amounting to £2,500,000, and call them Supplementary Estimates. As a matter of fact, that does not disclose, as it ought to do, the financial incompetence of the Admiralty, because what they have done is this: They have spent an extra £3,176,000, and they have underestimated to the extent of £676,000, and on the adjustment of the whole account they are practically £4,000,000 out on the whole year's account. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] They have overspent about £3,000,000, and deducted from that the sums under the head of "Less." If I am wrong the Admiralty are themselves to blame. This very simple sum in arithmetic means that the Admiralty accounts have to be adjusted to the extent practically of £4,000,000. That is not a Supplementary Estimate. Take the item for oil. I heard the whole of the right hon. Gentleman's statement regarding oil. It was very impressive. It was a magnificent sort of attempt to defend an exceedingly bad case, but was there one single consideration in the right hon. Gentleman's defence that a competent Admiralty could not have foreseen when making up the Estimates at the beginning of the year? The Admiralty seems to have some lack of foresight, as was the case in connection with the sinking of ships like the "Empress of India." Every item, with the exception of £1,000,000 which is supposed to have been caused by the acceleration of building, over which the right hon. Gentleman says he had no control, shows that there was lack of foresight on the part of the Admiralty.

If the Committee will take the Estimates as a whole, it will find that, as a matter of fact, this is not carrying on the old Programme, but really beginning a new one. Take the question of acceleration. Whether you take it from the point of view of accelerating our own programme or building three extra ships in order to supply the Canadian ships, it is a new programme. Of course, not technically. What did the Admiralty say when Germany was accelerating? We sat here day after day and heard arguments from the box, at which the right hon. Gentleman spoke this afternoon, which had no meaning and substance unless it is true, and I say that it is true, that if a nation accelerates its programme it is really increasing its fighting efficiency and consequently the menace it offers to other countries. So whether you take the acceleration of our own original programme or the acceleration of the 1914–15 programme by three ships in order to build against the Canadian ships, which are not forthcoming, from either point of view the right hon. Gentleman is really launching a new programme. I have read only this morning the statement of the right hon. Gentleman on the 17th of July, and perfectly clearly he said that if we are not going to get the Canadian ships we are going to build our own ships, to accelerate our own ships, to meet the deficiency. Earlier in his speech he told us that the Canadian ships were not put into the calculation so far as the 60 per cent. programme, to which you must build up, was concerned. Therefore, from the point of view of a foreign Power of a fighting efficiency, the Supplementary Estimates which we are now being asked to pass really amount to a new departure in shipbuilding and an increase in the fighting efficiency of this country. That is not the purpose of Supplementary Estimates, and Supplementary Estimates drafted in this way practically amount to an extension of the General Estimates presented to this House. The right hon. Gentleman told us this afternoon that £1,000,000 of the £3,176,000 has been spent because the contractors have accelerated the building of the ships that they had under contract during the last few months.

If my hon. Friend takes the net figure, £2,500,000, it will relieve the figure by £1,000,000; or if he takes the gross figure on all Estimates, then he must take the gross figure on the othe side.

That is quite right. It is £1,000,000 out of the £2,500,000. I did lapse into a mistake. However, the comparison is no part of the argument; it is the actual sum—£1,000,000 of the £2,500,000 has been spent on account of the acceleration of building in private yards. What does it mean from the point of view of labour? It is the very worst way in which labour can be employed. You are dragging into your shipbuilding yards an extra number of workmen over and above the normal staff that you are going to use in the normal year. You have either got to do that or have overtime, because as soon as you go back to a normal standard of ability you have got no employment for those men in the yard, unless your normal standard of building is going to increase by a steady percentage every year.

There is no question of an abnormal rate of building. On the contrary, with all this Supplementary Estimate, we are still not up to the normal.

Surely my right hon. Friend is not going to say that year after year, in a normal state of building, we are going to build on a basis of these Supplementary Estimates? Does my right hon. Friend mean to say that the present state of activity in some of those yards, and the overtime that is being worked on the Clyde and other places, are going to give a normal condition of work under Admiralty contracts?

The building programme is greatly in arrears, and the arrears are being overtaken during this year to a larger extent than we expected, but there will still be large arrears next year to be overtaken.

My right hon. Friend is building on arrears. He admits that he is building on his normal programme plus the arrears. Otherwise he is not overtaking his arrears. I certainly understood his argument to be that he is overtaking his arrears. Then I am perfectly right in saying that as soon as he comes back to his normal he is bound to discharge some of his men who are building his normal plus a certain percentage of arrears. I am not blaming my right hon. Friend for this. I am only pointing out what the effect of this kind of handling of labour by contractors is upon the labour market. Either he is getting men working overtime abnormally at the present moment, or he is abnormally increasing his staff, and as soon as my right hon. Friend begins to get back to his normal rate of building he has got to face an enormous pressure both from the workmen and from the employers, for more over-building in order to prevent discharges taking place and consequent unemployment. He says that he has nothing to do with this and, to a certain extent, I agree. But I wonder if the significance has escaped him. Those firms that he is now employing to produce these ships are no longer British firms. They are all international firms. Let us see what happens. I quite agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said about this. You get a year of slow building. Nobody takes any heed of it. It has been said that even my hon. Friends here who are economic experts, do not give the Admiraty credit when it hands over £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 to the Commissioners of National Debt. That is one year. Then next year an acceleration takes place in building. Consider the effect of that abroad. It is published abroad that we are accelerating our building. It is not only the narrow vision of the economist on this side of the House that forgets to average off this year's inflated building, as compared with the previous year, when the building was less than the normal, but it is also foreign public opinion that forgets to average it off, and what is said abroad in Germany, France, Italy and Austria is, "Great Britain is accelerating her speed of shipbuilding, and the only explanation for the acceleration is not that she may average up to her normal level of building, but that she may become more efficient against us in the waters of Europe." Surely that is the natural consequence of this kind of building.

What is going to happen with your international builders? They did not want a foreign scare last year because their hands were full of foreign orders. One of the reasons why you could not get so much armour as you wanted last year was that these very firms were producing enormous quantities of armour to be used in building foreign men of war. Now it is slack, and what is the indication from Germany? I think that what we said and did in 1909 must show this House that we also have got special means of knowing what is going on in Germany. All the indications at the present moment in Germany are that the German armour firms are beginning to create another scare. They are beginning to bring that pressure to bear upon the German Government, which always precedes either a building acceleration or an amending Naval Bill. Let us assume that the shipbuilding firms in this country wanted to increase the building abroad, and, consequently, the dividends of their shareholders, how do they do it? Precisely by the method which the right hon. Gentleman explained at the box this afternoon as accounting for the overbuilding this year. They come to him and say, "Owing to the coal strike, owing to the slackness of our men, and owing to all sorts of little pettifogging things last year we could not build so much, but this year, owing to the increased virtues of our men and the fact that labour at last has become awakened to its responsibilities as the producing agent in our yards, we want you to give us £1,000,000 more." All this is whispered in the chancelleries of Berlin, Paris, and elsewhere, and this is being made the reason why those very Powers then give more orders to the very firms that are now telling my right hon. Friend that they are such good, faithful servants in 1913, while they were not nearly so good and faithful in the year 1912.

That is the process, and that is the method of agitation which is going on. That is how the thing is being worked. If it suits their purpose next year, down, will go their building, and if it suits their purpose next year to do more building, up will go their building. The whole thing is now no longer a method of producing for this country. The whole thing is a carefully studied financial plan, devised by firms that are no longer competitors. Talk about Vicker's Maxim on the one hand and; Armstrong's on the other hand, and all the others—it is all a fraud and all a farce. They have got directors who are interchangeable. The vice-chairman of one is chairman of the other. The chairman of one is the director of another. One company holds shares in the other company, and they have got yards abroad and fitting places abroad, and all they require to do now in order to squeeze my right hon. Friend, in order to squeeze the Admiralty, and in order to squeeze this House, is to sit down year by year and decide how they are going to study the strategy of building, because there is just as much strategy in this as there is in the Admiralty disposition of the Fleet. They simply sit down and study the strategy of building in order to get Germany squeezed one year, Great Britain squeezed the next, and Austria and Italy squeezed the next. Then we are called Little Englanders and economists and Little Navyites, and the changes are rung over a certain gamut of opprobrious epithets. I would appeal to this House to begin at the beginning and to assert this principle that our shipbuilding shall be subordinated to national defence and not be made an end in itself, and that my right hon. Friend, and everybody who will succeed him, will be able to stand up at that box and describe the strategy of the firms who have him in the hollow of their hands and prove that it was going on wasting public money, and increasing the dividends of those shipbuilding yards.

My right hon. Friend does not see the point. Part of the strategy of shipbuilding is to get into arrears.

It was no part of the strategy of these firms to have the coal strike, or to have the great naval activity and the great industrial activity, which are the sole cause of the arrears; and there is lastly the fact that with all this accelera- tion, as the hon. Member calls it, we are still late by a great many months on the whole programme.

6.0 P.M.

Part of the strategy is to persuade my right hon. Friend that the coal strike had as much to do with it as he thinks it had, and a certain part of the strategy has no concern with where you are at the present moment. It has a concern in involving us in this present Supplementary Estimate. You are accelerating by £1,000,000. That is good enough. Take the case of the 1909 scare. Nobody ever went back then to compare the year's expenditure. Simply a Liberal Minister rose and said, "They are accelerating." Everybody believed it. This is quite sufficient to get up a national scare, and the national scare is quite sufficient to give back the shipbuilding to the threatened firms. However, I want to take a general point in regard to Supplementary Estimates. My right hon. Friend said quite truly that they were presented in the usual form and order. I have gone into them for some years, and that is, I find, quite correct. The right hon. Gentleman has also said that there is not a single Member of this House, not even if he had been a Civil Lord in previous administrations, who could follow through those figures and point out what the expenditure was that we are being asked to supply the money for. There are certain headings. We turn to the Estimates for 1913–14 and find a miscellaneous lot of items grouped under those headings. We cannot tell, for instance, if there is a single extravagant voyage of the "Enchantress" included in those Estimates. I do not know what you would say, Sir, if I started upon that; I am afraid you would rule me out of order; but it is quite possible that there is hidden somewhere hundreds of pounds, or a few thousands of pounds expended extravagantly in that way. The House should be provided with more information. If we are to have £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 asked for in Supplementary Estimates or going on from £3,000,000 to £4,000,000, and if this is to go on year after year, then, really, we should have some form of Supplementary Estimate which will enable us to make preparation by a study of the various items before we come here. If we have not made that preparation, may I say, respectfully, that it is the Admiralty's fault.

I think the time has come when this House should be a little more careful about Admiralty expenditure. Sir Robert Chalmers, who was examined by one of the Committee upstairs, stated, in answer to a question, that the Treasury has no Naval expert to check Admiralty accounts. I think that is a most extraordinary state of things. I would like to know, for instance, how many attempts the Admiralty made to produce these Supplementary Estimates. Do they really account for every penny that has been overspent by the Admiralty up to the 31st March this year? Are these Supplementary Estimates the original Supplementary Estimates that have been presented to-day? I have been reading the newspapers recently, and certainly we have been told, apparently on good authority, or which is more or less good, that attempt after attempt has been made to produce these Supplementary Estimates, and to shuffle off from them certain sums on to the Estimates for next year. I am bound to say, when one sees the extravagance that is going on right and left in Admiralty affairs, that one begins to lose confidence in the Admiralty, and in its financial representatives in this House; and it is necessary, for the guidance of this House, and for the confidence of this House, that the Estimates should be submitted to a Committee which will consider every item of expenditure, and tell this House clearly and distinctly what the Admiralty is doing, and how far its over-expenditure is in any way contrary to the intentions and to the Votes given by this House year after year on the Estimates. I doubt very much if my right hon. Friend himself knows what the over-expenditure was a very short time ago.

I cannot tell until the end of the financial year what the total earnings have been in that year, or what they may be found to be at the present moment. The Estimate is up to the end of the year, and in the last three months of the year the variations are very considerable, but, every penny that has been and is to be paid to the contractors under the contract is included in those Estimates, and what is due will be punctually defrayed, if the House approves of these Estimates, at the end of the year.

I leave it where it was. All I say is that this enormous expenditure and extravagance has been proved up to the hilt, and this House ought not to allow Supplementary Estimates to this enormous amount, and with this imperfect information to be placed before it as these are placed before us now. The House ought to take precautions to safeguard itself against extravagance which is nothing but wanton, and an expenditure which is becoming nothing but reckless. Until some Committee is set up to make this investigation, and to tell us exactly how the Admiralty has spent and is spending the money we vote, we can go into the Divisional Lobby for or against those Estimates, but certainly we have not got the information, we have not got the knowledge, and we have not got the confidence which enables you to safeguard the public purse as we are expected to safeguard it.

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty is deeply impressed by the speech that has just been made. The hon. Gentleman's speech had a good deal of his old-time forensic force, but I do not think that this Committee will attach the importance which it might otherwise attach to it if it did not know that this demonstration this afternoon is made not to impress this Committee, and not to impress the First Lord of the Admiralty, but to impress the hon. Gentleman's friends outside this House. We know perfectly well what will happen when the Division takes place. The hon. Member for Leicester, who tells the First Lord of the Admiralty that he and his Government are full of gross extravagance, that they are wicked—

Oh, he and his Admiralty! The hon. Gentleman was careful about his utterances when he attached responsibility for acts of the Admiralty only to the Admiralty itself and not to the Government. That is a new theory in the Socialistic view of the duty of the Legislature. I do not understand it. Evidently the hon. Member does understand it, and if, in some distant day, when he comes into power, it is his idea that his own Department is going to be absolutely independent of the Government, then we know what Socialistic legislation will be. The First Lord of the Admiralty has left the House. I wished to point out to him the position in which the hon. Member for Leicester puts himself and the Government. The hon. Member for Leicester actually said to this Committee that the First Lord and the Admiralty are controlled by shipbuilding firms. That is the view of the hon. Member. What in the world is he doing, voting for a Government that is controlled by a shipbuilding ring? What is he doing it for, this honest Member for Leicester, representing the honest electors? He is going into the Lobby to vote for a Government which he tells this Committee is controlled by a ring of shipbuilders!

I am saying exactly what the hon. Member said, but if he wants other opportunities he can explain himself. In the first place, this demonstration of the hon. Member is hollow; in the second place, it attributes to this Government qualities of weakness, qualities of humility and submission to outside individual interests, which, if they were true, then the Government ought not to sit on that Front Bench one hour, and the hon. Member opposite ought to be doing his best to put them out. He actually puts forward in this House the theory that the Admiralty should take close account of the disturbance that may occur in shipbuilding yards if national policy requires that certain ships should be built and the shipbuilding yards are able, in the circumstances in which they are placed, to have a busier time and to finish their contracts a little before time or at the time required. The attitude of the hon. Member is that the Government, if their policy is going to disturb the conditions of labour to such an extent that men are dismissed at the end of a busy year because the shipbuilding yards are not to be so busy next year, are to alter their policy accordingly. If the hon. Member does not mean that, I do not know what he means. He declares that he wishes the Government to be subservient and subordinate to the necessities of labour. Surely if national policy is going to depend upon the momentary necessities of any branch of labour in this country, I do not know what national policy or what the nation will be become. Let me take another point. The hon. Member has said, and distinctly said to the First Lord of the Admiralty, that here was acceleration, and he referred to the sum of £1,000,000. He said that this £1,000,000 has to be spent because of the increased activity in the shipbuilding yards, because they were building to finish their work sooner than they expected, that this was acceleration of the Naval Programme, and that Germany—I suppose he meant Germany and the other countries which are rivals in shipbulding—would regard this as acceleration of our shipbuilding programme. The hon. Member really, in spite of his utterances, is a very highly intelligent and very able man if he will allow me to say so, and how he can make a statement of that kind in this House, that the £1,000,000, which represents nothing save that which has already been arranged for, is acceleration of the shipbuilding programme I cannot understand. I am speaking now of the £1,000,000 which is applied, not to the Canadian ships, but to the payment for work already done, or to be done sooner than was expected by the Admiralty.

Let us come to the Canadian ships. The hon. Member regards the money that is being spent by the Admiralty also as acceleration, because of the necessity of supplying the place of these Canadian ships. Does the hon. Member for Leicester remember that the First Lord of the Admiralty, in his place in debate, stated in this House definitely that the Canadian ships were part of our policy, and were necessary to our policy, if we were to be secure throughout the Empire. If we were to be secure throughout this Empire those ships were to be part of our policy. If that is so, is it not the case that either we must build those ships or the Canadians must build those ships? I think it is absolutely clear if the policy says the ships which we arranged to build, plus the Canadian ships which the Canadians hoped to build or pay for building, that if they do not build their share we must build them. What has the right hon. Gentleman done? He has increased, accelerated, or, as he said, made an earlier beginning of certain ships which would take the place of the Canadian ships, and would preserve our position until 1916. Germany does not misunderstand that. Germany was alive, and all the country and the whole world, to what the First Lord of the Admiralty said, and what the Government said through him, that our world-interests wanted the ships that would be laid down by ourselves and the ships that were to be given to us by Canada. If Germany knew that those ships were not to be built, there is not the slightest doubt about it, but that she would accelerate her shipbuilding. Give her an opening to increase her strength by failure on our part to maintain the strength that we believe necessary, and it is quite clear that she would do as she did before, and with the slightest lapse in our activity she would take possession of the gap created. I do not think I have misrepresented the hon. Member for Leicester in any particular, but that I have faithfully reproduced his opinions, and I have made such comment on them as I thought justified under the circumstances. We know perfectly well that this demonstration this afternoon has no more reality than past demonstrations of the same kind when the Labour party ran away from their own Amendments.

At any rate we do not pretend to be the purists that the hon. Gentleman and his friends presume to be. Let me address myself to the question of the Supplementary Estimates so far as we regard them from this side of the House. I think I may say quite frankly as to the last three items, that is to say, the item of £200,000 increase in wages and prices, and of £450,000 for beginning earlier, and the £1,000,000 for the quicker execution of the contract, all those I believe the right hon. Gentleman and the Admiralty could not have foreseen, and I think that we ought to support those three items. Nobody in this Committee can, I think, question the explanation of the First Lord upon those three points, further than to say, as my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Lee) said, that the Supplementary Estimate, so far as the new ships were concerned, is unsatisfactory in that it only meets the temporary need, and will not meet the needs of the declared policy of the Government two years from now. Apart from that, I think we can all agree that the Government have not much to apologise for. A word or two about oil reserve and the matter of aircraft, and first about aircraft. The First Lord of the Admiralty stated what we all knew to be true three years ago. And it is that we did not compete successfully with Germany. We did not compete successfully with Germany two years ago. When the War Minister was so very nationally selfish as to point out that we were going to profit by the scientific experiments of other nations, and that they were going to sweat and we were going to get the profit, I said then, and I say now, that this Supplementary Estimate represents a most reprehensible neglect upon the part of this Government. Hon. Members of this Committee know perfectly well that if you are going to have scientific shipbuilding, or scientific warcraft, or scientific submarine arms, you have got to have scientists who are continually experimenting in order to produce the desired effects. It is no good to have people in other laboratories experimenting; you have got to have the experiments of your own scientists in your own workshop. These Supplementary Estimates would never have been needed if it were not for the absolutely reprehensible neglect of both the Admiralty and the War Office during the last three years.

In the earlier stages of this development we, a scientific nation, who have always led in scientific industry, and whose knowledge of all science was as great as that of any other nation until a few years ago, actually have the littleness, like some South American Republic, to await the activities of some other nation to show us what to do. I admit that you have reaped the advantages of it, but you have done so at the expense of your national prestige, and you might have reaped them at the expense of your national safety. That is the thing that is serious. Because you escape from year to year the consequences of neglect, it does not follow that some day the precedent set by neglecting the development of aircraft, aeroplanes, and airships, may not be reproduced in some neglect which will result in a national catastrophe. I took these views three years ago, and I take them now, and I repeat to this Committee what I believe in their heart of hearts they think, that for the honour of their country, quite apart from the efficiency of the Navy and the Army, we should have made greater progress in this matter in the past. Therefore I do not complain that these Supplementary Estimates come this year, I am glad they have come, but they ought to have come in another form much earlier. As for the oil contract, there is not much to say except this: it is clear if we accept the policy that we must have oil I do not understand, and I do not believe this Committee thoroughly understands yet, whether this policy of oilships is an unqualified success—that is to say, whether there are no doubts regarding it. Lord Fisher, in his Memorandum said that he believed in it, and he said the two things that were necessary were sources of supply and large reserves. The First Lord of the Admiralty has assured us that he has the sources of supply and the large reserve. I am only offering the opinion of a layman and I offer it on this basis only. The First Lord says they have one year's war supply. I should have been much more critical than the hon. Member for Leicester in this respect, and I venture to say that when the Government says that it has one year's war supply you may safely take it that you must knock off 50 per cent. At any rate, that is true of the other arm of defence, the Army.

I am saying that was true of the Army, and when the right hon. Gentleman says that we have a year's supply and then gives an unsatisfactory answer to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham, I am rather doubtful that the assurance he has given is as satisfactory as it ought to be. I am throwing this doubt upon it because I anticipate that in another year we shall have exactly the same kind of discussion, and exactly the same kind of retrospective look, and that he will be saying the same thing as we are saying to-day that the prophecies have not been fulfilled, and that the preparations were not adequate. In spite of the protests of those who would like to see the preparations diminished I think, on the whole, this Committee is bound to give its support to the Admiralty upon these Supplementary Estimates. Three-fourths of them, in any case, are wanted under the circumstances, and as for the other, too, if through any lack of proper preparation they have to bring forward these Supplementary Estimates now, we can at any rate be grateful that they do not fail to do their duty even at the eleventh hour.

I feel myself under some difficulties in view of the state of the Treasury Bench. This is a financial matter and I had supposed that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, or the First Lord of the Admiralty himself, would be present. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman opposite is in charge of the Debate, and at any rate he has been consistent in sitting on that Bench throughout the discussion.

I should just like to say a word or two as to what he said. I will only make him responsible for his own statement. I understood he took the view for the Opposition that the sum asked for was not sufficient. The hon. Gentleman approved of the action of the Government, and, as usual, gives them a blank cheque, only he complains that the cheque is not large enough, or, rather, that the figure which is filled in in that blank cheque is invariably not large enough. We have not derived much advantage or enlightenment from that speech as a criticism of the Supplementary Estimates. I wish to take a somewhat different line. This, as far as I can find, is the largest Supplementary Estimate that has ever been presented to this House in time of peace, and it occurred to me that it would need very considerable justification and explanation from the First Lord. We have now had that explanation, and the First Lord appears to take the matter as one quite in the ordinary course. He thinks it unnecessary to make any justification, and merely explains that these items have come about in the usual way. He tells us that this Supplementary Estimate is in accord with the strictest financial propriety. It seems to me to be a very extraordinary and unusual proceeding, and one which requires to receive proper justification. I observed that the right hon. Gentleman, in conclusion, made matters considerably worse from our point of view, because he declared if we wanted strict details, and to have the Estimates kept in detail, then he should refuse any details, and would ask this House for a lump sum. If that lump sum had been a less sum, and not a greater sum, there might be something to be said for his argument. In view of the fact that we have not the details and yet have to pay a larger sum, it is very unsatisfactory from every point of view. I have to complain that the right hon. Gentleman does not give us the details. From the form of the Estimates we cannot tell upon what the money has been spent. He has told us that the reserve of oil fuel has cost £500,000. We cannot tell that from these figures. He has told us that he has sent £160,000 on aircraft. We cannot tell that from these figures. The only item in regard to aircraft mentioned in these figures is £42,000, making a total revised Estimate of £140,500. We have no means of examining that statement. The same is true in regard to the £100,000 extra on contract prices. The whole thing is wrapped in mystery.

My hon. Friend must not hold me responsible for that. I am bound to present the returns in the prescribed Treasury form, approved by the Public Accounts Committee and the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and presumably by the House. That is the exact form in which the House wishes to have the Return and Accounts presented. If it wishes to have the accounts in another form it should say so at once.

If that is so, I think it is most desirable and important that we should have them in another form. Here we have the item of oil fuel, which is merely a reserve store, and which, together with aircraft, the right hon. Gentleman tells us is responsible for an increase of £1,500,000 in the original Estimate of this year, and is now responsible for another £773,000. That surely is an item which we ought to be able to follow exactly. It is of sufficient importance to be separated as an item of expenditure, and to be clearly placed before us. Under the Heading K1 you have— perfectly safe in adopting them. His words were:—

There is a very large amount about which it is admitted we were never warned. Hon. Members will remember a former occasion when many new services had been inaugurated, and money spent upon them without the authority of Parliament. That has come about again under the present financial laxity. With the advent of the right hon. Gentleman to the Admiralty we have had very large Supplementary Estimates. In 1912 the Supplementary Estimates amounted to £990,000, and the ease with which the money was obtained has led the right hon. Gentleman, to presume upon the indulgence of the House, with the result that he now asks for more than double that sum. No Supplementary Estimate of any consequence was presented from 1904 to 1912, when the right hon. Gentleman inaugurated this system of Supplementary Estimates. The practice was vigorously condemned by that master of finance, Mr. Gladstone, who said that it was "one of the greatest evils the House could endure." His reasons for that statement were given with such clearness and brevity that by the permission of the House I will quote them. When giving evidence before the Public Accounts Committee, Mr. Gladstone said that— of the Abyssinian war. There was a very careful Estimate made at the beginning, and that Estimate was very largely increased. Upon this being discovered, the House passed a unanimous Resolution that a Select Committee should be appointed to ascertain the causes of the discrepancy between Estimate and expenditure.

I asked the Prime Minister whether he would allow this Supplementary Estimate to go before the Estimates Committee, a Committee which had already examined the Estimate last year with great care, so that they might ascertain exactly how, why, and by whom this increased expenditure had been made. The Prime Minister in answer to my request, suggested that I should wait until an explanation had been given on this occasion of the Supplementary Estimate. We have had that explanation, and I have endeavoured to show that the explanation is in no sense satisfactory. The intention is to make a precedent of this procedure. It is, it appears to be, the ordinary course of events. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that shipbuilding is so complicated and difficult, that a ship is composed of so many parts—that there are its guns, its armour, and so on, and that every portion of the ship has to be made carefully. I must really ask if ships have suddenly become so complicated? Ships have been built for many, many years. I know something about them, about ordinary ships. Perhaps they are not so complicated as a war vessel, but I know something of the difficulties entailed in building vessels, but what we do know is that we lay down a definite sum for the building of ships, that sum is allocated by the Admiralty, and our control is through the sum which we vote annually. Therefore, the answer of the right hon. Gentleman is no answer to our complaint. We have definitely said that a definite sum is to be allotted. If the House has any control whatever, that control ought to be respected by the Admiralty. Otherwise there is no control over our finance. I must strongly object to the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman on the opposite side of the House that we should allow ships to be laid down, and the Admiralty allowed to spend what they please upon them and at any time. That is not our system of finance.

We may some day have a dictator who will settle these matters. We have not got him now. [AN HON. MEMBER: "You have, indeed!"] We are getting near it. I attribute a good deal of the present position to the alteration which has taken place in practice of making the Treasury a spending Department. Who are the Treasury? How did the Treasury come to pass this Estimate when it was so incorrect and so unsatisfactory? When were the Treasury informed of this overspending, and what did they do when they were so informed? We want to know all these matters. We want to keep our Parliamentary control an effective one. The right hon. Gentleman suggests that the Treasury were informed. I am glad to know that, but it does not say much for the control of the Treasury. Were the Treasury told that the money had been spent, and when?

The extended use of oil fuel in the Navy is what I will next deal with. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that in respect to this subject he is not very responsible. But he rushed in and ousted coal altogether in the programme of 1912–13 and almost entirely in 1913–14. When he came to occupy his present position, he says, there were a large number of ships burning oil fuel—but also a very large number burning oil and coal! The right hon. Gentleman is responsible for a very great extension of the use of oil. Then we have a panic that there is not enough oil! The right hon. Gentleman told us that he had come to the decision that the Navy must have more oil. We are estimating £1,000,000 upon the storage of oil fuel. Anybody who knows anything about oil knows that it is a very difficult thing to keep. It leaks out of the storages, and it disappears very largely. The disadvantages of oil fuel are greater than its advantages. Look at the position! We, of all countries, should not endeavour to dispossess coal in favour of oil. Of Welsh coal millions of tons are exported to every country of the world. It gives freights to out-ships, and it supplies our miners with wages to the extent of £100,000,000 annually. It gives us cheap freightage for our goods, and for our raw material on the return voyage. We are immensely dependent upon it. Why, then, should we be the persons, and not someone else, to go out of our way to dispossess ourselves of our premier position in the whole world? In the use of oil for our battleships there is a very grave danger, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman that a decision in this matter should not be taken until the matter has been very thoroughly investigated. Are we to leave a matter of this vital importance in the hands of the experts? I maintain we ought not to do so. I maintain that it is only common-sense that this House should decide the matter of this sort, and that the decision ought not to be taken before the grounds of it are communicated to this House. I am referring to the fact that our programme of the year before last was mainly on oil, and also to this year's programme. While I have no objection to put forward in supplying a few of the smaller ships with oil fuel, we have supplied battleships where you have only a very small number of units, and it appears to me that by so doing you are taking enormous risks from a strategic point of view. It is a very dangerous policy. There is a possibility of your ships being a dangerous inferno of explosive material.

Coal can be carried with perfect safety. Not only so, but the bunkers form a protection for the vital parts of the ships, and tends to neutralise the effects of shellfire. Oil will aggravate it instead of neutralising it. We ought to know what the expenditure is, and what it is proposed to do in regard to oil for the Navy. I have devoted some considerable attention to this matter, because it has been brought so prominently before us, and it is a case of panic, as I said just now. It is said that we have got the oil. I am glad to hear that we have. I want to know what we propose to spend annually on the consumption of oil. The whole Estimate, it seems to me, is eloquent of unbalanced development—rushing in and doing the thing without proper consideration. The right hon. Gentleman told us in July last we were to have an enormous delivery of warships. In a very eloquent speech, and one that was really very important too, the right hon. Gentleman said:— be pressed on. I contend that with this immense torrent of ships it is impossible to man the vessels, and the result is that our officers and men are becoming inefficient, and will remain inefficient. Officers are taken out of their ordinary course and put on to fresh work. We have not enough men for this great torrent of ships, and it will be far better to go a little easier. Let the materiel rest a little, and then we will be able to train the personnel better.

How, may I ask my hon. Friend, are you to prevent contractors who have contracts under Government authority, from earning the instalments within the limits of these contracts if they choose?

In making the contracts you can make the instalments payable to suit you, and not dependent entirely upon the contractors. If they do not complete their contract at the time they do not get the money. You do not want them to have the ships completed before the time.

No ships are completed before the time; almost all are completed long after the time.

7.0 P.M.

That may be, but payment may be deferred till next year. I pointed out before that if you lay down ships you ought to know how much you will have to pay in each year. Arrangements are to be made of that character. There seems to be want of proper control. We vote a certain number of ships, what happens? The ships of this year are undoubtedly different to those of next year, and they are perhaps double the cost of the ships of a few years ago. There has been a tremendous increase of power and speed and other things which has lead to this difficulty. We were informed that the new ship's would cost £2,700,000 or £2,800,000, as against £2,000,000 for the original "Dreadnought." "The Empress of India" is double, the gun power of the "Dreadnought." "The Tiger" is a gigantic ship, with 100,000 horse-power and 30,000 tonnage. The fact is you have an excessive and lopsided development. Your materiel is going far ahead of your personnel, and so is your gun-power. If you examine these things you will find that the one destroys the other. A ship like the "Lion" has got speed by the sacrifice of gun-power and of range and armaments, and so it must be. I urge that these Estimates show there has been a lopsided, inharmonious development, and I urge we should not go on, except on well-ordered lines, spending money ordered to be spent by the House of Commons and not exceeding these limits, and we should do far better. I ask for some assurance that overspending of this character will not occur again, and that this shall not be taken as a precedent, because I fear from what the right hon. Gentleman has said he intends to make it a precedent.

It is absolutely without any foundation at all that I intend to make Supplementary Estimates of this kind a precedent. Nothing of the kind. I should deeply regret that next year, Estimates of this character should have to be presented, but it depends entirely upon the size, of course, of the original Estimates.

I am very glad to have that assurance, but the right hon. Gentleman's words lead me, and perhaps justly, to the conclusion that he regards this as an ordinary proceeding. He told us, and the fact is, that the uncertainties were so great, it was impossible to estimate in advance or anything like it, and that therefore proceedings of this kind should not be judged too severely, and he went so far as to say that he could not go into details now. I think I was justified in saying that he thought this was an ordinary proceeding—it has occurred twice already—and I think I was justified in saying that that interpretation might be put upon his words, but I am very glad to have his interpretation now. I ask the Treasury to do its duty, and to get some effective control into its possession, and to become again the guardian of the public purse, and the watchdog over other Departments. Before being put to the vote this overspending should be referred to the Estimates Committee who examined the original Estimate, and that Committee should report to this House.

I do not propose to make a speech, but I want to ask the First Lord a question arising out of his speech to-day. He said the Admiralty were working on no narrow reserves of any supply required for the Navy. If he referred to oil only, I give way at once, but if he referred to other stores, then my information, which is naturally not equal to his, would lead me to believe he is mistaken. I should like to have a personal assurance from him as First Lord to the contrary. I am told the Admiralty are working on narrow reserves of practically all the stores that are required for the Navy. If that is not the case, I should be very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman if he can assure me on that point.

My statement, of course, referred to vital supplies of oil and ammunition, but in regard to other stores the amounts we keep in hand are regulated by the possibility of being able to obtain immediate supplies from the general supplies of the country, as well as by the margin that we require.

I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.

I move this reduction as a protest for two reasons. First of all, because of the enormous waste of public money; and, secondly, for the reason suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries— namely, the unconstitutional character of this Supplementary Estimate; that is to say, in my humble judgment, it is not in accordance with procedure that so large a sum should be overspent without the sanction of Parliament. It has been ruled from the Chair in answer to a question that while Supplementary Estimates are in order the amount ought to be decided by the House. Of course, I recognise that some Supplementary Estimates should be introduced, but to introduce one representing such a large amount as 2½ millions, whatever our opinion as to the amount that should be spent upon the Navy, is not, I think, in accordance with the procedure of this House. I think, therefore, many hon. Members may support me in the Division Lobby while perhaps not agreeing with my views upon expenditure generally, and upon policy which, of course, we have been debarred from enlarging upon to-night, but they may agree with me because of the present course being unconstitutional and not in accordance with the procedure of this House. The hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Lee) made a remark which I venture to think will not find an echo in the breast of his colleague the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain), and it was this: In relation to our finance, he said that the system of surrendering balances to the Treasury at the end of the year was an absurd system, and that it was the cause of the Supplementary Estimates. If that represents the views of the great Conservative party, I must say I am at a loss to understand how former speeches made by men such as Sir Robert Peel and Mr. Pitt and Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcester can be justified. One listened with amazement to the statement made by the hon. Gentleman, who was put up as the spokesman of his party, and who commences his speech with a statement such as that to which I refer.

I pass from that to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty. Many of us on this side of the House have listened with great pleasure to the masterly way in which the right hon. Gentleman goes into details in regard to technique and the mechanical arrangements connected with his Department. But we do believe that whilst he may and undoubtedly does delight this House with his knowledge of technique, and flights of fancy—and we are all interested in his real flights also, but we respectfully suggest to him that it would be more in accordance with the responsibilities of the First Lord if he cut short some of these latter flights, because we have some regard for his personal safety and for his position as First Lord—I say that, while we admire and listen with pleasure and delight to his knowledge of the mechanism of his Department, we fail to follow him when he tries to reconcile his Department with finance. He offered three main reasons as an apology for this Supplementary Estimate. I think his speech may be happily described as an apologia. I doubt if he felt very happy in that position, or that he felt certain he was making out a very complete case. He gave three main reasons for this Estimate. The first was the execution of contracts, the second was details with regard to airships, and the third was increase of the wages of the men. It was well pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries, that the right hon. Gentleman in his arguments made no case or justification for this expenditure. The only check we have upon expenditure is that of voting against these Estimates when they come before this House. It is beside the question to say that this is part of some programme the right hon. Gentleman may have adumbrated or enlarged upon in this House, and which got a certain amount of support at a certain particular period in its career. Surely policy governs expenditure, and if this House six months ago, or a year or eighteen months ago, gave some support to some speech outlining some construction with regard to this year and next, that does not commit the House to a course of expenditure that might be involved in the total construction programme! We only vote; we cannot in the nature of things be expected to know the prices of materiel, the various prices of destroyers, cruisers, and battleships. Most of us look at what is the amount of money we are asked to vote, and if we subscribe to that amount, we recognise, representing the taxpayers, that this House and those who we represent, are liable for that amount and for that amount alone. If there has been overspending, as undoubtedly there has been, and it is admitted by the right hon. Gentleman in this particular Estimate, I submit it might have, been foreseen at the end of last Session, and powers might have been asked from Parliament to justify that over-expenditure. But to ask us now, within a few weeks of the end of the financial year, to give the right hon. Gentleman, in a Supplementary Estimate, an indemnity for the money expended, is, I submit, entirely illegal and unconstitutional. I propose to give one or two quotations in proof of that statement. There are various authorities. There is one who is well known to many hon. Members of this House. According to Joseph Redlich and Sir Courtenay Ilbert:—

I have given a few examples, and there are many more which I could quote. The hon. Member for Dumfries quoted Mr. Gladstone, and I have quoted others, including Sir Erskine May. Any hon. Member may prove for himself that this action of the Government is both unconstitutional and illegal. Hon. Members opposite may differ with us upon questions as to what amount should or should not be spent upon armaments; but if they would only take the trouble to look into this question they would see that they have a great opportunity, if they are really anxious to supplant this Government. Why do hon. Gentlemen opposite not study these questions for themselves, instead of leaving it to individuals like myself to call attention to this unconstitutional procedure. If they want to achieve the object they have in view here is the opportunity. Instead of that, you hear speeches from hon. Members opposite who attack this question as a matter of policy. The speech made by the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir G. Parker) was, according to the ruling of the Chair, quite out of order as far as it related to Germany; but here is an opportunity for the hon. Member for Gravesend to attack the Government on the ground of their action being unconstitutional. I ask hon. Members opposite if they do not believe my quotations to take the authorities I have quoted and study for themselves. Here they have an opportunity of maintaining the constitution of this country, Parliamentary precedents, and traditions, and they have ample evidence to make out a very strong case which would get support from hon. Members on the Ministerial side, and would receive the solid support of the Labour party. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] When a Division is taken I do not think it will be found that the Labour party will support the Government in this matter. I have no authority to speak for them, and they are well able to speak for themselves, but I cannot believe after the speech of the Leader of the Labour party that they will support these Supplementary Naval Estimates.

When Labour Members represent constituencies where they make armaments they always vote in favour of these Estimates.

I do not think the hon. Baronet who has interrupted is quite qualified to speak for the Labour party on this matter. I pass from that to one other Resolution which was passed by the House itself. I have submitted to the House quotations from Sir Courtenay Ilbert and Sir Erskine May, and now I should like to submit a Resolution passed by this House in reference to this very point. The House of Commons registered its permanent disapproval of these Departmental excesses on the 30th March, 1849, when the following Resolution was passed:—

"When a certain amount of expenditure for a particular service has been determined upon by Parliament it is the bounden duty of the Department, which has that service under its charge and control, to take care that the expenditure does not exceed the amount placed at its disposal for that purpose."

There you have a Resolution passed by this House which again confirms my argument that the Government have no right to come here within a few weeks of the end of the financial year, to ask for a Supplementary Estimate to indemnify them for money already spent. The Government did not ask for a Supplementary Estimate at the end of last Session. Had they done that and asked this House for £2,500,000 it would have been in order. We might not have voted it for other reasons, but we should not have had such strong grounds for protest as we have now. This Estimate is an affront to Parliament, and the destruction of our powers. Surely our principal power is control over finance; surely to allow this Estimate to be pitchforked through a few weeks before the end of the financial year, and to indemnify the Government for an expenditure which they have not asked us to authorise, is to reduce Parliamentary control to a farce, no matter what party you may belong to! We are not even asked for our opinion upon this Estimate, and we are simply asked to give the Government an indemnity. They have spent the money, and we cannot recall it. Under any circumstances it has to be settled, but if we were to refuse to vote this money it would give the Government a sharp reproof for their financial irregularities, and other ways would be found of paying the debts which have been incurred. I ask hon. Members, before they agree to this Supplementary Estimate, to weigh well the Resolution passed by this House, and to consider the authority of Sir Erskine May on this point, for he is recognised on all sides of the House as a great authority on Parliamentary procedure, before agreeing to so irregular a proceeding. There is another quotation I should like to place before the Committee, and it is really the crux of this matter; it is the question whether the Government are entitled to come before us and ask for so large an amount as £2,500,000, which has already been spent. On this point Sir Erskine May held:—

"The House of Commons appoints at the commencement of every Session the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for the examination of the accounts showing the Appropriations of the sums granted by Parliament to meet the public expenditure."

Sir Erskine May goes on to say:—

"The Committee scrutinises the causes which have led to any excesses over Parliamentary Grants, and the application of savings on the Grants made to the Naval and Military Departments. The researches made by the Committee and the publication of their Reports ensure on behalf of the House of Commons an effective examination of the public accounts."

I should like to ask whether this Estimate has been submitted to the Public Accounts Committee?

It cannot have been submitted to that Committee yet, but it will be submitted in due course.

That is like locking the stable door after the horse has been stolen. I submit that we are entitled to have that Report before we are asked to indemnify the Government for money which has already been spent. The whole of this procedure reverses the financial practice of this House. The idea of a Supplementary Estimate is something which we anticipate will be spent at some future date, and the very name suggests that.

I think that shows the absurdity of asking us to pass a Supplementary Estimate, which is not an Estimate at all, because the money has been spent. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty does not seem to appreciate that point, and when he approves of that procedure I think he only shows his incapacity for the position which he adorns. To ask for an Estimate for money which the Admiralty has already spent is reducing the financial control of this House to an absurdity. I have already said enough to show that Estimates are to be put forward for sums which it is anticipated will be required, and that we are entitled in this House to have them submitted to us first for our opinion. I shall be told, of course, that while many may possibly agree with me, they will not support me in the Lobby because it may jeopardise Home Rule. One has heard that argument so often that he begins to weary of it. It has been admitted in the many Debates we have had in this House, and the Home Rule question has been debated ad nauseam , that as between the two parties in the State the principle of self-government has been conceded. The Leader of the Opposition has said—

I was just trying to show how it was relevant to the argument I have in view in order to get as many as possible to oppose this Vote, but, of course, I bow to your ruling. I was going to try to demonstrate that the Home Rule question would not be jeopardised by an adverse vote on this subject. It is most unfortunate that we cannot get a free vote on a question of this sort. We are unquestionably hampered in coming to a right decision with regard to it, because of some other thing which may or may not come to pass. I believe that we could give a free vote, and that these other causes would not be jeopardised. There are certain items for surpluses. The first appears in Vote 8. There is a surplus there of £350,000. In Section III. there is a surplus of £216,000, and on Vote 9 there is an of some £630,000 odd, which, I think I am accurate in stating, has been spent in addition to £2,500,000. This amount of £2,500,000 is unquestionably over and above those other items. We know that the Naval and Military Departments have a right to transfer certain balances from one account to another, and we see from this Supplementary Estimate that there is a total there of something like £630,000 odd which they have used in addition to the £2,500,000. They have spent every shilling they possess, and yet, in spite of that, they have to come to us and confess and to make apologetic speeches and say that they have been forced into an expenditure of £2,500,000 in addition.

I submit that that is to affront this House. It is to reduce our Debates to a farce. This House, after all, has fought for the principle of the control of finance, which has been admitted and is eulogised by men on both sides of the House as one of the greatest powers we possess. If, on this occasion we allow ourselves to be persuaded to part with that great principle because, forsooth, some may think they want to spend more on the Navy and because others perhaps have other questions at the back of their minds which they are afraid will be jeopardised, we shall be doing something which we shall afterwards regret. Once we give away that power, and allow ourselves to be jockeyed as we have been this year, and as we may be again, out of our just rights, it will not be so easy for us to recover them. This battle has been fought in the past, and it has been one of the most severe battles we have had to fight. If we allow our control of our finances to escape from us, we reduce ourselves to the position of mere automata, not having any opinions of our own, and not able to express them against an irregularity undermining as, I think, British finance, and we shall be sorry for it. I hope that hon. Members will rise above the mere exigencies of the moment and will enter a protest against this great irregularity.

My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry (Mr. D. Mason) has been indulging in his favourite pastime of giving a friendly lead to His Majesty's Opposition. I rather think that it was a former exercise in that delightful pastime which produced a certain resolution passed by the Coventry Liberal Association. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I do not mention that to reflect on my hon. Friend. I believe that he has always given this House an example of courage. The purpose of my remarks will presently appear. He has always given the House a lead in that particular matter, and I quite think that in opposing his opinions, not only to the majority of this House, but also the majority of his constituents, he is adopting a course which reflects very great credit upon him, but, at the same time, I would like to point out to my hon. Friend, that there is, after all, something to be said for a constituency which is engaged in the manufacture of the materials of war—

On a point of Order. I wish to know what the question of what the constituents of the hon. Member may think has to do with this Vote?

The hon. Member for Coventry has just moved a reduction. I think the speech of the hon. Member for Northamptonshire has not yet developed enough to say what was his point.

May I call your attention to a fact of which you may be unaware. There has been a disagreement between the hon. Member and his supporters in his constituency, and it was that to which the hon. Member for Northampton was referring. May I ask whether it is in order for an hon. Member to attack another hon. Member because his constituents are at variance with him on this question.

A matter of that kind is no concern of mine. The hon. Member for Coventry is a Member of this House and he is equal in all respects to every other hon. Member, and it does not seem to me that that matter should affect the question. We must discuss this matter on its merits.

I quite agree. I have not the slightest desire to reflect in any way on the hon. Member for Coventry personally, and that will appear from the argument I want to present to the Committee. My object was to present the aspect of this question from the Labour point of view, and it was entirely in that connection that I approached the matter, as my hon. Friend will quickly see. I think my hon. Friend knows that I have the greatest respect for him personally and have not the slightest desire to reflect upon him. It has already been said by the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald)—and it was his particular point that brought this subject to my mind—that we get in this connection a concentration of labour upon the construction of the materials for armaments. It was on that point that I was addressing myself when I referred to what had occurred at Coventry, and I have not the slightest desire of reflecting upon my hon. Friend. I hope he will accept that from me. The serious point is this: We have got a very large number of men engaged in constituencies like Woolwich and Sunderland and Coventry, and other places who are drawn into the manufacture of implements of war. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] At any rate, in some constituencies which are well represented in this House we have a very large number of men engaged in the manufacture of the implements of war. It is that fact which largely influenced the able speech of the hon. Member for Leicester, and I am quite sure it is that also which influenced my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry.

The point was dealt with ably by the hon. Member for Leicester, and I quite thought that it had influenced the mind of my hon. Friend.

The question is: Have we, if we think it right and proper to make a reduction in naval armaments, the right, as it were, to cast off, like old clothes, any men who have been engaged in the construction of the materials for armaments? This is a very serious point, and it arises particularly at this time. The hon. Member for Leicester, in his speech, dealt with the question how labour was affected by the Supplementary Estimates presented by my right hon. Friend, and he rather pictured the drawing into the manuture of armaments at this time of a very large additional number of men. If the Noble Lord who raised the point of Order—I quite appreciate what he had in his mind—has any doubt as to what I say, I will gladly show him my notes, and show him that this was the argument I desired to develop. It was solely on that ground that I made that reference to Coventry. The hon. Member for Leicester represented the country as giving up an additional number of men to the manufacture of armaments, and on that he rather founded an argument from the labour point of view, an argument which I entirely appreciate, that it was a bad thing for the country that those men should be drawn into this trade. He rather represented that at this time we were drawing more people into the armament trade because of this Supplementary Estimate. I want to point out that that seems to me an entire mistake. The shipbuilding industry has been acknowledged by my hon. Friend who sits behind me, and who has more knowledge of that matter than most of us, to be a highly fluctuating one and it is the fluctuating character of the trade that largely leads to the presentation of these Supplementary Estimates.

The Admiralty is in the position that it has got to endeavour to forecast for a period of fifteen months, during which a varity of vessels of all sorts are under construction, ranging from battleships down to destroyers, or torpedo boats or submarines. It has got within that fifteen months a large number of these various vessels under construction, and it has got, if it can, to estimate what amount of work will be done upon all those vessels, and what amount therefore it will have to pay to contractors. That would be difficult enough if trade conditions were absolutely stable. But the shipbuilding industry, unfortunately, is most variable in its character, and that element of uncertainty obtains in this connection as it does not obtain in many other directions. My hon. Friend, the Member for Leicester, seemed to think it is a bad thing for the labour of this country at this time that these Supplementary Estimates should be presented. But what are the facts? At this period we have a declining trade, following upon a trade boom of perhaps of unparalleled dimensions. Four or six months ago we began to feel the effect of this trade decline. Naturally, as the ordinary work of shipbuilding fell off, it became possible for the contractors to accelerate work upon more vessels. That is what occurred, and a larger amount of arrears have been wiped off than in previous months. We are still in arrears at the present moment, but, in recent months, we have been able to make up a larger amount of those arrears than was expected. What is the effect on labour? These Supplementary Estimates mean that a certain number of shipbuilders and others employed in such a variable trade, who would otherwise have been unemployed, are now well employed. I agree with the hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. D. Mason), that they are not employed in the best way to be desired from a national point of view, if armaments were not necessary. But if we agree as to the necessity for armaments, surely it is magnificent that we should have this expenditure, which we all deplore, helping to fill up the curve of unemployment. That matter has frequently been dealt with by the economists of this country, and serious proposals have been made by Mr. Sydney Webb and others that we should provide for the curve of unemployment by arranging Government orders from time to time in such a fashion as to fill up that curve. I think the hon. Member for Leicester overlooked that most important point when he dealt with these Estimates as though they are inimical to the interests of labour. Putting aside the question whether the Estimates are necessary, their effect is undoubtedly good for labour, seeing that they come just at the time when trade is falling. They, in fact, steady employment in a number of instances.

As to what the Admiralty has been able to do in the past, I do not think their record in recent years has been bad. From the period beginning in 1904–5 down to the present time, the underspending has varied, except in one year, between £30,000 and £400,000. In the last ten years, there has only been one case of overspending—that is the present year. In one case there has been extraordinary underspending; that was in 1911–12, and it amounted to £1,200,000. With regard to the other eight years, the underspending has never exceeded £400,000 except in one year, and apart from that one year, the biggest underspending was £240,000, which was in 1905–6. I quite agree with the hon. Member who spoke last, and with my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries, that if Supplementary Estimates of his kind were to be produced every year, or indeed frequently, there would be serious cause for apprehension. But we must judge, not only by this year, but by previous years, and when we have it on record that in the last ten years there has been overspending in only one year, and there has been underspending in the other nine years, and that there was only serious underspending in one year, it does look on the whole as though the Admiralty, in spite of the great difficulty of making Estimates, has not done its duty badly. Surely it is a very important matter for the Labour party, that some part at least of these Estimates is accounted for by increased wages—not only by increased wages, paid to workers employed by the Government, but also by increased wages happily secured in the various trades concerned in the other part of this work. One might have expected complaints from the Labour benches that on one count at least these Estimates should be higher and not lower, and that is on the wages side. There has been a movement for securing the minimum wage for Government workers—

I have already given a ruling this afternoon that that subject is not in order.

I, of course, bow to your ruling at once, but I do think there should have been an expression from the Labour Benches that the. Government has not neglected the important question of wages for Government workers. [An HON. MEMBER: "But they have done."] The hon. Member seems to think they have neglected it. At any rate, in these Supplementary Estimates a considerable sum is accounted for by higher wages. The hon. Member for Leicester spoke of the relations between the Admiralty and the contractors, but he did not suggest any remedy. The question is a very difficult one, but as long as the commercial system lasts the Admiralty must either put itself to some extent in the hands of contractors, or it must do all its work for itself. The Leader of the Labour party did not commend that policy to the First Lord. I am bound to say I am very strongly of opinion that a larger amount of constructional work in connection with armaments should be done in Government shipyards and Government arsenals. It has this great advantage, that it gives you more direct control on labour questions, and we do not shift the responsibility with regard to labour questions to the contractor.

On one point I gravely differ from the First Lord, and that is with regard to his dealing with the subject of aircraft. My right hon. Friend almost boasted of the fact that we have left the development of aircraft to proceed abroad, while we have been content to wait for the best engines and the best appliances to be produced. That argument goes very far indeed, and I venture to submit to the Committee that this is not a case of the exhibition of wisdom by a Government Department, but something of a much more profound character. Once this country was pre-eminent in all kinds of engineering; it is no longer so to-day, and it does seem open to question whether a Government Department, like the Admiralty or the War Office, which could prosecute experiments in these particular matters, would not be well advised to do so, even perhaps at rather greater cost than is at present involved. Is it wise to leave the development of all these new appliances—whether it be aeroplanes or airships, or internal combustion engines, or any of the cognate matters, such as the perfecting of electrical machinery to others? Are we justified in taking pride to ourselves that we let foreign countries make experiments while we secure the fruit. Another very important matter was dealt with by the hon. Member for Dumfries, and I confess that I am inclined to agree with him. It is in regard to the use of oil in the Navy. I am one of those who have always believed that the introduction of oil into the navies of the world, and, indeed, into the ships of the world, was a very great misfortune for this country. We have particular advantages with regard to coal, and those advantages affect, of course, not only the Navy, but our shipbuilding. If, therefore, those responsible for the British Navy have assisted the progress of the use of oil on ships, then undoubtedly they are helping to strike a blow at British shipping. If we, by experiment, prove that oil is better fuel for vessels, whether used in internal combustion engines or for raising steam, if by any means we help to prove that in practice—and it does seem to me we have done a very great deal in that direction—we are affecting our commercial interests. It is not only that we reduce the use of coal. We also reduce those coal exports upon which our shipping is largely dependent, and by these means we cause very great injury to our commercial shipping. I would venture to represent to my right hon. Friend in this connection, that this is not merely a question of the interests of the Navy. We are at the same time striking a blow at that wealth upon which, of course, the Navy depends. I again wish, in conclusion, to assure my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry that I had not the slightest idea of making any attack upon him personally in what I said, when I was endeavouring to develop my argument regarding the views put forward from the Labour Benches on the question of the construction of armaments.

8.0 P.M.

I think it is really time that somebody on this side of the House intervened for a few moments in this Debate, if only to put a temporary stop to the kind of civil war which is proceeding on the other side, and which arises whenever there is any question of providing adequately for the National defence. We know, of course, that this civil war is confined to the floor of the House; it does not find its way into the Division Lobbies. On one subject raised by the hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. D. Mason) I agree. I think Supplementary Estimates of this magnitude are always to be regretted, but the hon. Member should not have been one to regret them, not only because they are necessary, but because they are rendered more necessary by the fact that the First Lord always has to come to this House in fear and trembling lest the Little Navy party, when the General Estimates are put forward, prevent him getting the amount he requires. It tends to make him underestimate when he feels sure that a certain section of the supporters of the Government have no confidence whatever in his estimate of the needs of the Navy. There are one or two items which call for a good deal of explanation upon which the First Lord did not see fit to give us an explanation. It is very difficult for the ordinary layman, who is not an expert, to understand why there was such a large mistake as 15 per cent. in budgeting for an item like the Projectile Vote. If we do not understand it, that is all the more reason why we should have been told why there was such a great variation in that one item.

It does not mean that more projectiles have been fired during the year; it means that more projectiles have been finished by the contractors.

I am much obliged to the First Lord for that explanation. I wish that more had been fired and that more practice had occurred. Why is it impossible, when we are dealing with the general Estimates, to give us a little more approximately any cost of that kind? Perhaps the First Lord will explain that when tie answers this Debate. With reference to what the hon. Member for East Northants (Mr. Chiozza Money) has said with regard to labour, I am sorry the hon. Member for Leicester is not present at this moment, because if his views are really those he has put forward, it is rather surprising that he himself did not move the reduction of the Vote. The whole of the tirade against the First Lord means nothing, since hon. Members know they can safely vote against the Government because we vote with the Government on defence questions. We think the hon. Member seriously misrepresents labour all over the country. Those on this side of the Committee who support the Government on defence questions do not find any disposition among the working men of the country to refuse to give adequate supplies for naval defence when the matter is properly put before them. We find no support whatever for a reduction of armaments, and we believe, as the hon. Member for East Northhants believes, that the work which is given by regular Admiralty orders is a very important factor to labour, which labour recognises. If the hon. Member for Leicester really meant what he said when he made a rather obscure point with regard to the disorganisation of labour which would occur when we get back to normal times, he might alter all that if he chose by agreeing with us in our desire to have a regular Naval Law, as they have in Germany. If he complains of labour disorganisation—and he has a certain reason for his complaint that the present Government have been hostile to labour, because of their fluctuating policy by which there was a considerable drop in the Navy Votes in the first two years they were in office, and then a sudden increase—he could avoid all that by having a fixer! Naval Law, which could only be altered on a sliding scale as foreign countries altered their construction.

I should be the last to defend my party for reducing the Navy during the last two years they were in office. I think it was the greatest mistake, and I regret that the present Government, in their first two years of office, did their best to follow my party in the downward course they adopted. I rather anticipate that when the whole question of oil and other kindred questions come up on the General Estimates, it is very likely we shall only have a very short survey of the position, because there will be so many other things with which the First Lord will have to deal that some of these questions will be crowded out, and we shall probably be told by the First Lord that he would be glad to give us more information on certain items if he had the time. He has the time to-night, and I hope he will avail himself of it. The oil question was started without this House being much acquainted with it. I am not an expert, and there are very few in this Committee who can possibly say whether the policy of the Admiralty in regard to oil is right or wrong. In my opinion, it is not for us to say one or the other—that is for the experts who advise the Admiralty, and who alone can know. But we, as Members of this House, have the right to ask for some explanation of the First Lord's policy. I am one of those who believe that questions of national defence cannot be made too simple or too clear to the people, of this country. I know there are certain aspects of national defence—strategical and tactical aspects—which necessarily must remain secret; but if you want lo get the support of the great masses of the people of this country for an ever-increasing programme, such as they will be asked to support, you must make your policy clear, simple, precise, and definite. I am certain we should all find a much greater interest taken in these defence questions in the country if, say, on the question of oil, the First Lord would let us know on what ground he was changing our whole policy, and what he was driving at.

Perhaps I was not sufficiently fortunate to read my OFFICIAL REPORT carefully, or perhaps I was too obtuse to have understood it. I am sure there are those in the country who are as obtuse as I am, who do not understand the drift of the policy. I shall be grateful if the First Lord will tell us whether the oil policy has yet passed out of the experimental stage. Is it definitely decided, yes or no, that the policy of oil fuel is to be adopted steadily and continuously until the whole of the Navy is under its influence. That is a thing the people of the country would like to know. Is it intended that only a certain class of ships should be with oil fuel, or all of them, and, if so, how soon? Those are questions which I hope the First Lord will answer.

I will send the hon. Gentleman a copy of the speech I delivered last year.

I shall be very grateful to have it. I can assure the First Lord that the question is not understood in the country, and that questions are continually being asked upon it. We also want to know what reason he has to hope for any domestic or Imperial sources of supply of oil. There is no reason for secrecy in that matter. We want to know, if this policy is adopted, whether the sources of supply are to be permanently foreign sources; whether they are likely to be Dominion sources; and whether there is any possibility of domestic sources of supply. We further want to know, with regard to oil stores in this country, what measures he is taking for their defence in time of war; whether it is a large matter or a small matter; and whether the stores are open to aerial attack. We want to have some sense of security in this matter. I would plead for what is not generally pleaded for on our side. In the realm of foreign affairs I do not believe that this House can attempt to control in any detail the foreign affairs of the country, but in questions of national defence those who are at the Admiralty and the War Office ought to inform the country in broad outline a great deal more of their hopes and ideals than they do at the present. If there is any reluctance on the part of the people of this country to provide for national defence, it is because the people feel they are paying for something of which they scarcely know the drift, and which is changing from time to time. The Army and the Navy are scarcely their own weapons, for they are controlled by others and not by themselves. The First Lord has now plenty of time to explain to the Committee clearly and amply the matters I have raised.

I wish to ask the First Lord a few questions, and more particularly why it is not in the public interest to disclose to the House of Commons the prices we are paying for all classes of fuel, stores, munitions, and coal. I cannot understand why the Committee should vote large sums of money for carrying on the public services without having the prices the Government pay clearly stated. It is constantly said by Ministers that it is not in the public interest to disclose the facts to the House. Take the case of armaments and the money we are voting to-night. Why is it not in the public interest to disclose to the House of Commons and to the country the prices that are being paid for the armour plate for ships, guns, and other classes of warlike material? There is no one manufacturing in this country who could in the least be damnified by the prices being stated. Let me take coal supplies as an example. Does the First Lord think, when he refuses to disclose the price he is paying for coal, that he is paying merely the market price? Nothing of the kind. The answer I have repeatedly had is that it is not in the public interest to disclose the price. I should like to tell the Committee what happened a few months ago. The Admiralty sent out inquiries for coal. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, there is a ring of people who are on the favoured list to supply coal. Some of the companies with which I am connected are on this favoured list. There are two different lists—one for the supply of coal to foreign ports, and one for the supply at home. The Admiralty sent out an inquiry for immediate delivery. I am going to make this public in the Committee. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would think I ought not to do so, but I hold that the country is entitled to know what is going on. The inquiry came to a company with which I am connected, and the price of coal to the Admiralty was at once increased by 2s. a ton beyond the price at which they were supplying coal to other people. The Admiralty accepted the offer, and immediately telephoned thanking them for the low price at which they were supplying the coal. I will produce papers to support the facts.

I shall be much obliged if my hon. Friend will let me have all the facts. These odd cases can only be judged in relation to the full facts.

What I am giving to the Committee are the actual facts. The price charged to the Admiralty at the time by my particular company was 2s. more than we obtained in the same week from other people, and the Admiralty telephoned thanking them not only for the delivery, but for the low price. Why should not the country know the price we are paying for coal? Why should the Admiralty say, when they are asked to acquaint us with the price they pay, that it is not in the interests of the country to disclose it?

I never said so. On the contrary. I said it is not in accordance with the usual practice which the House has sanctioned, and in answer to a question I gave the reasons why.

I do not wish to quarrel with my right hon. Friend, who is one of the best First Lords of the Admiralty we have ever had. I can assure him I have repeatedly asked his predecessors why they did not give these prices to the House of Commons. I do not wish to make any reflection on him, but if I were to put a question on the Paper to-morrow asking if he would give the prices the Admiralty paid for coal, he would refuse to give it. He would say it was not in the public interest and it was not in accordance with precedent to give it. Will he now change his mind and tell us, so far as coal at all events goes, which is a thing which varies from day to day, the same as all other commodities? Why cannot he be candid with the House and tell us the price?

I now come to firms. I was brought up in engineering, and my profession is engineering, and I happen to live in a district where armaments are made, and I know something about the manufacture of armaments. I have been in and out of armament work all my life, and ought to know, and do know, something about the facts. I know the right hon. Gentleman will say, with regard to the large prices which have been paid by the Admiralty, that they have entered into an arrangement with the armament firms. They say they have been forced by the Admiralty to spend large sums of money in putting down plant in their works. The Admiralty officers say they are to put down so many grinding machines of a particular character, and certain presses, and if they do that the Government pledge themselves to continue giving them work. What are you paying these contractors to-day for armour plates? I know what you are paying for that class of armour plate. I cannot disclose it because it is given me in confidence, but when everyone in the trade knows that you are paying these prices, should not the House of Commons know? Why is the House of Commons to be kept in ignorance of what everyone who is associated with the trade is well aware of? When the American Government, the German Government, and the French Government disclose the prices they pay for armour plates, I cannot see why we should have all this secrecy. Are we to understand that the Government are such keen buyers of material that their prices are always so exceptional that it would not be in the public interest to disclose them? On the contrary, this Government pays the highest price in Europe to-day to the manufacturers of armour plate, and for all warlike stores.

The hon. Member (Mr. Chiozza Money) said the Admiralty were wrong in starting to spend money to prove whether oil was a commercial success. He does not know what he is talking about, because it has already been proved by Messrs Harland and Wolff conclusively that the internal combustion engine will travel five miles on oil to one mile on coal. Leaving out the question whether oil is as safe on board a ship, it is quite clear that the First Lord has been perfectly right in using oil in preference to coal. To say that the Admiralty by this policy of using oil are going to prove that oil will be commercially used, and that it will be to the detriment of the coal trades of the country, is perfect nonsense, because it has been proved for the last two years, by the exhaustive trials made by Messrs. Harland and Wolff, to be for commercial purposes, if it can be purchased, infinitely superior and more economical than coal. Therefore I agree with that policy, though it is always subject to the Admiralty being able to obtain a supply of oil. When the light hon. Gentleman ordered these oil ships he knew he was going to sell himself, bag and baggage, to the Jews. The whole supply of oil is in the hands of a monopoly controlled by Jews, and he knows perfectly well that when he ordered these ships he had not the supply guaranteed to him. I want to know where he is going to get that oil. He can only get it at present by going to this combination who control the oil, and unless he can give the House some assurance that it will be forthcoming, why do we spend this money, because I do not see where it is going to end? An hon. Member opposite asks whether there was not any possibility of oil being obtained in this country in the near future which will enable the Admiralty to be independent of foreign supplies. Where shall we be able to get the oil to drive these ships with? Can we get it at a reasonable price without having to go to these contractors who have formed themselves into a ring? There are only two or three at the most who control the whole supply of the world. It is a dangerous policy for the Admiralty to depend for their supplies of oil on a ring of contractors who have banded themselves together to put up the price of oil, not only for the Government, but to every user of petrol and oil in the United Kingdom. One more instance of the extravagance of the Admiralty. Not satisfied with getting the 13.5, which is a very excellent gun, they decided to construct a 15-inch gun, and they gave out that they were going to build a 14-inch gun. What has been the cost of that change from the 13.5 to the 15-inch? It means an expenditure on a battleship—not only the cost of the gun but the strength that has to be worked into the ship—of £350,000 per ship.

Does the right hon. Gentleman say he can put 15-inch guns on to ships where he has been putting 13.5 guns?

The hon. Baronet has perhaps overlooked the fact that a ship only carries eight 15-inch guns which can carry ten 13.5 guns.

I am told on reliable authority that the difference in cost for equipping a ship with 15-inch guns in place of 13.5 guns amounts to no less than £350,000. I will put a question on Paper, but the right hon. Gentleman will no doubt say that it is not in the public interest to answer it. We shall be glad to hear what he has to say as to the extra cost involved. In that case the Admiralty were not frank with the country. They always want a policy of concealment. It was stated that we were to have a 14-inch gun, but the Germans knew within a few months that it was to be, not a 14-inch but a 15-inch gun. All this policy is going ahead, and you have the result when the Minister comes down to the House and asks these enormous Estimates. So far as the Labour party are concerned, whenever it has been a question affecting their constituents in relation to the construction of armaments, these gentlemen go into the Lobby in favour of the party that spends most money. It is perfectly ludicrous for the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald) to come here and talk of what the Labour party are going to do. In point of fact, when the interests of their constituents are affected they go into the wrong Lobby.

The hon. Member for East Northamptonshire (Mr. Chiozza Money) used an argument as to the construction of armaments enabling labour to be employed in these very bad times. We are in very good times, I think. The hon. Member said that in a period when unemployment was coming upon us we were able to fill up the curve by working at armaments. He poses as an economist. Let the House observe that his argument is that it is in the interests of labour that people should be engaged in the construction of armaments. I consider that these Estimates are higher than necessary. That is the reason why I am going to vote for the Amendment. I shall do so on the ground that the strength of the Navy is so immeasurably greater in proportion to what was laid down as necessary by the right hon. Gentleman himself last year. When the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire says that this money is profitably spent, inasmuch as men are going to find employment who otherwise would be out of work, I say that no more nonsensical argument could be put forward, because these men could with the same money be put on work which would be profitable, and not on work which will have to be scrapped in a few years. I do hope that the Admiralty are going to mend their ways on this question of not disclosing to the public the prices they are paying. I attach more importance to this question than to anything: Why should not the House of Commons have this information? Why should we be automatic machines to come and vote whatever Ministers choose to ask? One would almost suppose that we are their servants, but, as a matter of fact, they are our servants.

Until the Government disclose to the House the prices they are going to pay, and are paying, to contractors, not only in connection with armaments but warlike materials as well, I shall record my vote against them, for the reason that all public bodies—corporations, large municipal authorities, all big undertakings, all our engineering works and manufacturing companies—publish the prices of their contracts. Why should there be all tins secrecy on the part of the Admiralty? I maintain that the Admiralty is not an efficiently managed concern, so far as its business in such matters is involved. If we had more economy and less red tape at that box on the part of Ministers who support the officials in their Departments, who are, after all, the rulers, the administration would be better. Ministers are mere automatic machines to give out in the House of Commons what the officials say, and the Members of the House are expected to be so foolish as to accept what hon. and right hon. Gentlemen tell us. I gather from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that he is going to mend his ways and give us in future some little crumbs of information as to the prices he is paying. At all events, having regard to these Estimates, I shall have no hesitation whatever in voting for the Amendment. It is all nonsense to talk about having to make these arrangements with contractors. We all know very well that the Government have only to say to the contractor, "We are going to have a certain amount of money to spend," and there will be no overspending of these very large sums. The truth of the matter is that the First Lord of the Admiralty has been going about on the "Enchantress," and at every port he arrives at everyone comes after him, and wherever he goes, out goes public money right and left. The right hon. Gentleman seems to have no regard for the public purse, and we are mere machines here to vote what the Admiralty pay. I am not going to be one of the Members who accept the Estimates. I shall continue to vote against all such Estimates as a protest against the way the Government carry on their business.

I should like to deal with some of the observations which fell from my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire (Mr. Molteno). He put forward what I think is the perfectly sound argument—I do not agree with him, but I think it is an arguable point—that an Estimate should be presented on the first opportunity. He said that that decision of principle was come to in July, and that this Estimate should have been immediately presented.

I will not delay the Committee with any further observations on that point. What I think my hon. Friend argued was that the Government had not taken the earliest opportunity after the Shipbuilding Vote in July last of submitting the Estimate. He went so far as to say that they ought to have held a special Session of Parliament. I think if the Government had done that in order to pass a Supplementary Estimate, even although large in amount, their action would have had the effect possibly of producing a new Navy scare, and of directing the attention of Europe in a way which I think is unnecessary to this Supplementary provision. I agree with him to this extent. Broadly speaking, Supplementary Estimates are certainly objectionable. I do not think that anybody speaking from the Liberal Benches would say otherwise. He quoted Mr. Gladstone, and I am not sure that he could not quote Sir William Harcourt and Lord Randolph Churchill against the general principle of Supplementary Estimates. But my hon. Friend was distinctly unfair to the First Lord. In fact, the First Lord had to rise in his place and repudiate a suggestion that the Supplementary Estimates were in any way to be drawn into a precedent. The Supplementary Estimate has been criticised in the matter of form. The Financial Secretary has pointed out that they are only acting in accordance with precedent, and that they require an indication from the House of Commons to the Treasury of their will in the matter. It is extremely difficult for the layman reading this Estimate to understand the five main causes which were described by the First Lord this afternoon, and to understand really under what heads the money has been spent. My right hon. Friend must bear in mind that when he presents in March the main Estimates, we shall have all the details we wish, and we can see on what particular item the money has been underspent or overspent, and we shall have the additional memorandum explaining. In the absence of these, I think that the House of Commons is at a considerable disadvantage.

Turning to more general questions which have been raised, the hon. Member for Leicester went, I thought, with almost Machiavellian subtlety into the policy of the contractors, who, he said, had the Government in the hollow of their hands. He said that they had deliberately spent more money or less money in a single year, according as they wished. I think that he was over subtle in the matter. His charges, which really amount to veiled corruption, do not apply; but there is the point, as the First Lord has pointed out over and over again, that in reality the programmes are late. That is the point which I have continually made in this House. The "Audacious" was late; the "Ajax" was late; and the "Queen Mary" was late by five or six months. I have myself occasionally pressed for some penalty as against the contractors. Why, in the case of serious delay, as in the instance of these three ships, is it not possible to impose some penalty, or to ask, at any rate, whether the question will be seriously considered? The hon. Member for Leicester was difficult to understand in some of his arguments. He made a point which was extremely unfair when he spoke of the beginning earlier by a few months of the contract-built vessels as being in effect a new programme. It is nothing of the kind. It is precisely because it is not a new programme, because my right hon. Friend resisted in July the demand which was made by the Opposition, not merely for three extra ships, but for six extra ships, that I remember well getting up in this House in July, and saying that for that reason alone we ought to support the action of the Government, and I did support it. There, again, we were speaking on the spur of the moment in July last, when we had a single day for the consideration of these rather complex calculations, and I supported the Estimates. However, on consideration, I evolve one or two points of minor criticisms with which I might venture to delay the Committee.

It does seem to me, dealing simply with the question of the three accelerated contract-built ships, that a very large and very sudden change in the margin is involved. The third quarter of 1915 is the point selected by the First Lord for this change. I mean this, that the ships all come in, as I would express it, with a rush in September, 1915. That is the latest point which the third quarter of 1915 would mean. Therefore, I would be glad to have an assurance that the ships are going to be ready at that date, but, if they are, all the five ships of last year's programme, dockyard and contract-built, promised by the First Lord would come in by September at the latest. The "Malaya" will not be ready until September; it is, therefore, a matter of six ships. Consequently, taking the year 1915 and dividing it into two periods ending April and October, in the first case you have British ships 38 and German 23. In the second case you have British ships 44 and German 23, and, comparing the two margins—I am only doing this for the purpose of comparison—you have a margin of 66 per cent. in April, while in October you have a margin of 91 per cent. Therefore, by this acceleration, of which I am bound to say I have some doubt, you alter your margin by as much as 40 per cent. That seems to me an enormous difference between the two periods of the year, when the German factor does not change. The hon. Member for Mansfield, I think, was perfectly justified in drawing attention to the figures as to increase in the size of guns, and to the change of type within the last few years. A few years ago we used to reckon in pre-"Dreadnoughts" and "Dreadnoughts." Now we reckon in simple "Dreadnoughts" and super-"Dreadnoughts." In the matter of comparison the system is the same, but there is a difference in cost. We are dealing with ships which are enormously more costly for construction, maintenance, management, fuel, and every item, and though the comparison is the same, it requires an enormously increased expenditure in every item, and it is absurd, when we are discussing these questions of standard, to leave type out of account. Since the building of the "Orion," the "Iron Duke," the "Queen Elizabeth" and the "Royal Sovereign," it is just as absurd as it would have been in the old days not to differentiate between the "King Edward" and the "Dreadnought."

It is a platitude which I hesitate to submit to the Committee, and which would not need arguing in the least, but that during the Debate in July the hon. Member for Fareham developed what seemed to me an extraordinary theory, that because there are such things as torpedoes and mines and seaplanes which are no respecters of type when they sink a ship, therefore you are not entitled to consider the broadside fire as well as the actual numbers of unit. If that doctrine means anything, it merely means that you should build a large number of small ships instead of a small number of large ships. I am not expert enough to presume to argue that. All I say on the point is that it would mean the complete reversal of the whole of the naval policy that we have been pursuing up to the present moment. Besides, the hon. Gentleman is scarcely consistent with his own observations in the past, because as far back as 1911 he pointed out that while the original "Dreadnought" showed an immense increase in fighting power over the ships which preceded it, the new "Orion" type has a broadside fire which is practically double that of the first "Dreadnought"; and so, in 1911, he pointed out perfectly plainly that type was a factor and he was only dealing then with the "Orion" class. Of course, the broadside of the "Royal Sovereign," so far as we are able to get information on the point—and I am taking this from the very admirable Navy League Annual—is bigger than the broadside of the "Orion" by the margin of the original "Dreadnought." It is not a question of being practically doubled, but of being practically trebled. Therefore, it may be observed that in laying down the last programme of five "Royal Sovereigns," in effect we laid down fourteen "Dreadnoughts." I do not know what the "Dreadnought" argument leads to. By your "Dreadnoughts" you scrapped your "King Edwards," by the "Orion" you scrapped your "Dreadnoughts," and by the "Queen Elizabeth" you scrapped your "Orions." I do not think it would be true to say that the British Government have, set the pace in the matter of number, but they have unquestionably set the pace in the matter of type, and they have always been first in the field by a good many years.

When we have had the criticism from the Benches opposite to the effect that we should have six ships more matured in 1915–16, that we have not built ships enough, and that we are endangering the Empire and are below the 60 per cent. standard. I have worked out the broadside power of the vessels which are covered by the present Estimates. The hon. Member opposite said that, leaving out "Nelsons" and Colonial ships, it would be a matter of thirty-nine to twenty-six, and that we would be below the 60 per cent. standard. Taking the broadside power of these ships on the figures given officially and in the "Navy League Annual," I find that, though you have only thirty-nine to twenty-six, yet the broadside power of the German ships is only 212,320, while that of the British ships is 462,600, or more than twice as much as the German. Taking the "Queen Elizabeth," and "Royal Sovereign" types, nine vessels, and comparing them with our previous thirty vessels, I find that less one-third of the units have more than half the broadside power of the previous ships. The mere fact of building nine ships of this type, comparing broadside fire with, say, nine "Iron Dukes," is that you have an increase of broadside fire equal to two "King Georges."

Yet the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Lee) and other hon. Gentlemen opposite want six more ships. Any argument more absurd than that I never heard. The margin for the latter part of 1915 is rather swollen and bloated, because in a given month we get our 1913 ships when no other foreign Power has got ships for later than 1912. My point is that by ordering your ships in July or in March, you could, if necessary, get the whole of your construction a year in advance of foreign powers, and you could always deal with realities, and not with suppositions. It is, of course, true that the margin falls, and falls considerably when the German 1913 programme comes in. On this particular point I suggest that your fluctuations are too rapid in 1915–16. There is a jump of 40 per cent. and a fall downwards of 25 per cent., and I would suggest that you might possibly keep a more even keel, and keep the margin more regular through the whole period of the year. What are those ships? You may say without the slightest exaggeration that these "Royal Sovereigns" are the fourth successive type within the last few years—the "Benbow," the "Tiger," the "Queen Elizabeth" and the "Royal Sovereigns" cannot be lumped together and called "Dreadnoughts" or super-"Dreadnoughts." Take the special point of guns; in the first case you have ten 13.5 guns; in the second, eight 13.5 guns; and in the third, eight 15 in. guns; in the fourth we are told it is to be ten 15 in. guns. It is very hard for a layman to know which is the best possible arrangement, and one of the naval correspondents who disturb our minds, has raised doubts about the efficiency of the 15 in. gun, and suggests that the Admiralty are not as satisfied as they expected to be with the 15 in. gun. I do not presume to understand the exact technical point of the subject, whether it is flat trajectory or some other point, but it seems to be suggested that more damage can be done with the earlier 13.5 guns. The French "Flandre" type began after we had announced our 15 in. gun mounts, the 13.5 gun, but in larger numbers. I do not presume to discuss these technical details, however. The Admiralty have embarked upon this new type, and they should give us some idea of their comparative value. The hon. Member for Dumfriesshire referred to the point, I thought a little unfairly, in discussing the question of oil as motive power, and said the First Lord had given no information. In July, the First Lord gave a clear and full account of the matter. I think it inevitable that we should have an unsatisfactory Debate upon these Supplementary Estimates. There are many questions of general policy and standard which the usual opportunity on Votes A and I will afford a more convenient method of discussion. Summarising the arguments which have been addressed to the Committee, I do not think we ought to take too harsh a view of these Supplementary Estimates. I believe that the reasons for them have been clearly announced and accepted by the House, and I do not think I should be misrepresenting the views of many of my hon. Friends who desire to see a reduction in Navy Estimates if I said that while they reserve their views and their right to make comment upon future action, they are very well content to accept the necessity for the particular method of presenting the Estimates at this time.

The hon. Member for Montrose Boroughs (Mr. Harcourt) having proved his loyalty by a halting support of these Estimates and having damned them with faint praise, I should like to say I not only differ from the views he expressed, but I find peculiar difficulty in understanding what is his difficulty in understanding the attitude of the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald). Surely nothing could be clearer than that the hon. Member is willing to wound and yet afraid to strike; willing to wound because it pleases the extremists amongst his supporters, and afraid to strike because it would damage himself or his followers in this House.

After having condemned these Estimates in no halting manner, but root and branch, the hon. Member for Leicester does not move his Amendment, but leaves that with the hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. D. Mason), and neither will he support that if it goes to a Division unless he is perfectly certain that his support will not damage the Government which he is so anxious to serve. The hon. Member for Leicester originally had a turn for tactics, but since his return from India, where he has been serving the interests of British labour I doubt if we shall get him to act up to the very simple elementary requirement of this case by voting for this Amendment. I do not object to these Supplementary Estimates, but, on the contrary, I think the House and the country are to be congratulated that, in these days when there is a "Little Navy party," the Front Bench have had the courage, because it really requires some courage, to keep the British Navy up to anything like a standard. I think the House is to be congratulated that the First Lord and the Parliamentary Secretary have had the courage, notwithstanding the large number amongst their nominal followers who oppose them, to do what is necessary to some extent for the Navy. One might think, to hear the speeches and to read the Press upon this subject, that the First Lord had suddenly started a spirited policy and was going to place the Empire on its feet again, whereas he is doing no more by these Estimates than merely carrying out the minimum policy which at the time when it was advanced received the support of all parties, and falls far short of that which was advised by the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary, and the other leading Members of the party at the time when it was discovered that the Germans, while we were playing at The Hague, were making ready for warfare and getting ahead of us. I think never did a Minister attain fame so cheaply as the First Lord by merely providing the elementary requirements of the Navy. The hon. Baronet the Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham) said very bravely that he declined any longer to be part of an automatic machine, and to support the Government with his vote. The hon. Baronet has been a long time in finding out that he is part of an automatic machine. He might have done so in far less than eight years, and have shaken the dust off his feet by moving over to this side of the House. I do not despair of the hon. Baronet in an absent moment taking that step. He also attacked the Front Bench—that was the, latest collision with the Admiralty—for not divulging the price of coal and details regarding their contracts. I think they would be mad if they divulged more than they do. I think they divulge more than is required. If all the details of our defences are to be disclosed to the House of Commons, and to the whole country through them, there will be an end of such supremacy and superiority in armaments as is yet left to this country, which is little enough in all conscience. If the hon. Baronet's request is acceded to, and I hope there is no fear that it will, and if that policy is pursued, it will be found when next we go to war that this Empire, like that of the Turks, has been destroyed by a mad attack of Parliamentary government. The other day when a question was put, and this is really what made me rise, regarding the provision of oil, and whether experiments had been made in the way of producing oil from shale, I asked whether the Admiralty were really under the impression that the extraction of oil from shale was still in the experimental stage. The First Lord turned aside my question by stating it should have been put a minute before, which makes me think he was really under the impression that the extraction of oil from shale is in the experimental stage. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty will at least prove that at the Admiralty they do know that oil has been produced from shale for many years. There are flourishing companies in Scotland which have for many years been producing commercial oil and selling it in that way, and if they cross over to Spain they will find many more companies engaged in the same pursuit. It is really extraordinary if that is the impression at the Admiralty.

Then objection was made that the Admiralty were in a hurry to go ahead in the direction of expense, and are leading in the riot of extravagant expenditure. If this country is to maintain its position as the leading naval country in the world, it must necessarily lead in expenditure. How can it possibly maintain its position unless its expenditure is proportionate to that position, and the only manner in which expenditure by the Admiralty can be reduced, or progressive increases be avoided, is by an act of abnegation which may prove to be the ruin of the Empire. I hear hon. Members, and they have been doing it ever since I became a Member of this House, saying this is unproductive expenditure. For the life of me I cannot understand how people can call insurance of the nation unproductive expenditure. In the narrowest possible sense of the word I suppose they would argue that it does not make two blades of grass grow where one blade grew before; but it makes the growing of one blade of grass possible. If it were not for the peace and order which is maintained solely by our national expenditure on defence and insurance—and it is a very small percentage on insurance—it would be quite impossible for any crops to grow. All expenditure which they consider alone to be productive would immediately cease. Of all expenditure this is the most productive. Hon. Members of the Labour party who raise these objections know it, because as soon as you get any objections to expenditure in dockyard constituencies, which some of them represent, they rise in their wrath and say, "Economy, economy; but not, oh not, in my constituency." They know perfectly well that this money is spent upon British labour, in the encouragement of British industry, in the defence of British hearths and homes, trade and commerce; and directly it comes to a question relating to their own constituency, away go all their collective theories, and they vote, as I hope they really would in an emergency, for that which they for purposes of party tactics decry and condemn. This money is spent on British labour. Take the "Dreadnoughts," about the expenditure upon which hon. Members opposite frequently complain. I understand that 50 per cent. of the expenditure on a "Dreadnought" is spent on British labour. Does not that provide for the families of those concerned? Is not that productive expenditure? Do we not want to produce families, and large families? And how is that possible unless our workmen are maintained in the greatest of our industries.

The line of argument which the hon. Member is pursuing is hardly in order on a Supplementary Estimate.

I am afraid that my natural desire to observe the Rules of Order has been slightly impaired by hearing the excursions of other hon. Members, who seem to me to have travelled some distance from the subject. With regard to projectiles and ammunition, I do not understand how it is that so very large an increase of upwards of £250,000 has been rendered necessary. If practice has been very much extended, if much more than usual has been done in the way of preparation, the House and the country are profoundly ignorant of the fact. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will explain this large increase—of which I do not complain, but which, on the contrary, I welcome, if it means that more has been done in improving the efficiency of our gunners. With regard to Naval airships, such expenditure as has been incurred is most valuable and necessary, and I cannot understand how any British subject can object to it. It is very clearly proved that all that was said upon that subject on this side of the House in the early days, when the Admiralty and the War Office were so supine in this all-important matter, has been justified by the event. We saw then the French nation, so fertile in invention, so able in mechanics, leading in this subject, and now we have the very instructive object-lesson of the Germans outstripping the French and standing ahead of them and of us. I sincerely hope that no objection will be taken to this expenditure. It is a painful thing that, in critical times like these, any objection should be taken to such expenditure, particularly at a time when any expenditure, however wanton or wasteful, so far from being objected to, is approved and acclaimed, provided only it is sanctified by the all-embracing title of social reform.

I do not pretend to be able to follow the last speaker, either by copying the eloquence of his peroration, or by agreeing with the position that he has taken up. He appeared to me to indicate to the Committee that if he could possibly be imagined to have any dissatisfaction at all with the Estimates, his dissatisfaction would arise from the fact that they are not five, six, or ten times as large as they are. I am afraid that I hold an entirely different opinion. I desire to confine my remarks to one or two main features and to the general character of the Estimates under consideration. It is true that the House of Commons is accustomed to Supplementary Estimates, and if these Supplementary Estimates had been more moderate in size, it is quite likely that this Debate would not have taken place. But I think it will be agreed by Ministers that the size of these Supplementary Estimates is unprecedented, and it is only reasonable to believe that considerable anxiety and alarm have been felt, not only in this House, but in the country, at the idea that expenditure, already high, is likely to go higher still in the near future. It is a rather remarkable fact that these Supplementary Estimates, amounting as they do to some £3,000,000, would really represent one- third of the total Navy Estimates of only a generation ago. The First Lord of the Admiralty has assured us that this is not to be a precedent. We on this side will all be thankful to believe that. This system of bringing in heavy Supplementary Estimates in the month of March, a few weeks before the expiration of the financial year, makes, or would make if the system were continued, the examination of the annual Estimates by this House a mere sham. The late date at which they are presented certainly destroys Parliamentary control over finance.

I should not be in order in dwelling upon the Estimates of the year 1912–13, but I would remind the Committee that it is only now, in the month of March, 1914, that we understand the Navy finance of the previous year. The Report of the Auditor-General giving the exact appropriation for the year 1912–13 is only just in the hands of Members of this House. I do think that that Report might be considerably expedited in future, because I maintain it is impossible fairly to consider the finance of the present year, remembering as one does how much one fails to understand the finance of the previous year owing to figures of the exact expenditure not being issued before. If the Report of the Auditor-General for 1912–13 is examined by hon. Gentlemen they will find that it indicates want of foresight of a most amazing description in the Admiralty advisers. It shows that the million and a half of money which the House of Commons authorised on certain Votes, namely, Vote 8, Section 3, and Vote 10, was not spent upon those Votes, but was spent upon other Votes, victualling, clothing, personnel, articles for dockyard, and ships' armaments. In view of that, I say it would have been extremely useful to us to-day if something like the accurate presentation of expenditure up to, say, Christmas of the year that we are just ending, should have been made to the House before we are called upon to discuss this Supplementary Estimate.

The House must be very much in the dark as to what it is doing. The Supplementary Estimates now before us indicate an expenditure of three million beyond what was agreed to when the Estimates of the year were before us. I fear I must say that it is only because the Admiralty and the Treasury cannot balance the accounts by manipulation—I do not use that word in any offensive sense—that we are allowed to see this discrepancy as early as we are. The right hon. Gentleman is asking us for more money. The difficulty to us is that we are really already committed to the money for which he has come before us to-day—money which, for all practical purposes, is already spent. We are told that we cannot now refuse it without incurring something like dishonour by a breach of the obligations undertaken on our behalf, but of which we have been entirely ignorant. We have been told that it would be improper in this Debate to review the general Estimates of the year; but I want to point out that it was largely on policy that the First Lord obtained from the House the sanction for the Estimate that he presented to us in March last. If the First, Lord has cheerfully taken one Vote and put it to another, he is doing something which makes our position extremely difficult. For every separate Vote in the Admiralty Estimates indicates some point or other of policy. To come to this House last year, state the policy of the Admiralty, and ask for a subvention to carry it out, and then to take the money, or to suggest to take the money to be spent on one Vote and transfer it to another, is not only making finance very difficult, but it is making a policy that the House is asked to follow a policy that is inconsistent and very difficult to understand. I would ask if it is not really a change of policy to take money which the House of Commons agreed to vote some months ago for coaling craft and spend it on oil fuel? The two, oil fuel and coal, are wrapped up in one Vote, and we cannot tell how much there is of one or how much of the other.

It seems to me to be an extraordinary change not only in the financial arrangements but in policy as well. I agree with what has been said by a speaker on this side of the House, that this House ought to be much more fully considered in matters of this sort. I speak with some feeling, because I have been a member of the Estimates Committee for the last two years. Remember that we sat on through the summer last year, most laboriously and most carefully considering, line by line, the Estimates of the Admiralty. We naturally thought that we were considering and examining the expenditure in those Estimates; that we were really having put before us the actual expenditure that the Admiralty intended to incur. We asked innumerable questions of innumerable witnesses. It was never for a moment indicated to us that the details and figures of the amount of the Estimates put before us did not represent something like the actual sum of money which would probably be spent. I think to treat the Estimates Committee in that way was to put rather a slight upon us. If the Estimates Committee is to serve any useful purpose there must be more accurate details of national expenditure placed before us when we are considering national finance. There was one statement made to the Estimates Committee last year, or the year before, which I should like to bring before the House. It was made by Sir Robert Chalmers when he came before the Committee to explain how the financial control of the Treasury operated. He used these words:—

I have listened with interest to the First Lord's explanation of this very large increase in the Supplementary Estimate. At the same time I do not think he made out a case in support of this very large figure. If you take these Estimates item by item, they will destroy to a large extent the ground upon which he based his argument. Take the first item, for instance. Metals and metal articles. There is an increase in the one item of 14 per cent. The next item: coals for yard purposes, there is an increase of over 9 per cent. Take paint material: one would have thought that this was an item where the Estimate could have been more closely adhered to, the increase is over 11 per cent. You come to fuel, to which great reference has been made. Fuel, lubricating oils etc., shows an increase of nearly 30 per cent. And let me just here remark that I think the change of fuel from coal to oil is a very serious matter indeed. I know that in Germany, inasmuch as she has little or no oil, and is largely dependent upon Russia, there has been for years constant anxiety upon the matter, and I think I read in a consul report some years ago, that the German Government had offered a large prize about twenty years ago to anyone who could discover a substitute for oil. Therefore for us to suspend using the natural product of the land, and to become entirely dependent upon other countries for oil, is a change that should not be made without very serious consideration indeed. Not only that, but this is a change of policy in regard to which the Admiralty themselves are strongly in doubt. It may be, and I cannot argue the question, that the substitution of oil may be like the change from wooden ships to iron ships, but if oil is the better the Admiralty should have stuck to it altogether. Instead of that they are using coal in battleships and oil in other ships. That shows that there is doubt in the mind of the Admiralty as to which is the better. I think there should have been presented to the House before the change was made some real statement upon which we could say the Admiralty were justified in the change.

Let me come to another item where there is a considerable increase. I think these percentages are worthy of consideration by the House. Take, for instance, propelling machinery. There is an increase there of 16 per cent., which is a very large increase. Any business man who had to face an increase of 16 per cent. in some part of his business would be very much disturbed. In the armaments of ships there is an increase of 33 1–3rd per cent., which is a very serious item indeed. The First Lord said everybody knows you may have great difficulty and you may have mishaps, and you may have some that will not stand the test. But surely there are many suppliers of armaments, and there should be no great difficulty in testing armaments, and there should not be this great increase. The next item—repairs and alterations by contract for ships—shows an increase of 14 per cent., and projectiles and ammunition an increase of 16 per cent. There is one item that shows an increase of no less than 285 per cent. That is the item for compensation for damage done by His Majesty's ships. I ask what has the Admiralty been doing to cause that damage? We should have some explanation—there may be a perfectly sound one—as to why this item is increased from £20,000 to £77,000.

There were two serious collisions which could not possibly have been foreseen.

My point is that in the setting forth of these items there has been very little business acumen shown. The point is that we do not know the reasons for the increases on referring to this Paper. I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman may be able to give a satisfactory explanation. The explanation he has given does not explain other items, and, speaking as a business man, I say that if any firm were to carry on their business and to have these increases as supplementary estimates, that firm would be bankrupt very soon. I say it is a serious thing to have these Supplementary Estimates of over £3,000,000. Last year, when the Estimates were brought forward, many of us were greatly disturbed by their size. We were then informed that they had been gone into with the greatest possible care, and, therefore, when we saw this great increase, we had great searchings of heart, and I sincerely trust the Debate to-day will have same effect on the Government in being more economical as well as giving more accurate Estimates in the future.

I hope my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty will notice the amount of support the Government has got to-day. The only support I notice came from an hon. Member opposite. So far from this being a minor occasion of very little importance when the House can divide at an early hour and go home to bed early, I consider it is a very important occasion, and I think that 2nd March, 1914, will be often quoted in times to come. We are to-day setting a very dangerous precedent. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries, in his speech, expressed the hope that this would not be made an excuse for bringing in Supplementary Estimates in future years. I noted the answer of the First Lord of the Admiralty to my hon. Friend. He was somewhat indignant at being supposed to meditate bringing in Supplementary Estimates in the future, and he said they would not be brought in, but the introduction of Supplementary Estimates, he added, must always depend upon the original Estimate. He made that reservation. We voted £45,500,000 or £46,000,000 for the Navy Estimates last year, and they turned out to be over £48,000,000. So that when the First Lord of the Admiralty introduces his Estimates next week or so, which we are told are going to be considerably over £50,000,000, we on this side of the House, will make a mental reservation that we must add possibly £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 to the figures he then gives. What limit is to be placed upon the introduction of these Supplementary Estimates? It is an extremely dangerous principle, and one which may lead us very far.

The First Lord said that the conditions to-day were novel, and were continually changing, and he said there must be fluctuations in the future. My hon. Friend the Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. R. Harcourt), who is generally inclined to support the Government in these Debates, was to-night very critical indeed. In fact, he joined with all those of us who still maintain some shred of liberal principle upon this question, and showed by figures he gave the enormous increase that has taken place in the building of ships. I need not repeat the figures again. It is sufficient to say that in ten years we have increased the tonnage of ships from 16,350 to 30,000 tons, and the cost from £1,500,000 to considerably over £2,500,000, and all the other items connected with the building of ships have increased proportionately. Therefore when we make our calculations for the future, it is obvious that all possible increases will be proportionately larger, and these items in the Estimates which the Admiralty are unable to account for in their original Estimates will appear in Supplementary Estimates in the future in ever increasing sums of money. The truth is that it is not only the Admiralty that is responsible. In a Debate of this sort, the great importance of which cannot be over-estimated, we ought to have the First Lord of the Admiralty, the Prime Minister, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer present upon the Treausry Bench most of the time. But, of course, on this occasion they are not going to meet a frontal attack from hon. Members opposite. It is only my hon. Friends who have spoken out to assure the Government that they have very little support from this side of the House. It is the Treasury that ought to be taken to book as well as the Admiralty. I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary a definite question, which I should like him to answer. I am not a financial or a naval expert, but I have still left a certain amount of common sense. I understand that the building of a first-class battleship has to be spread over a period of three or four years. The contracts are given out annually, and the Estimates are made annually. Why is it that in order to avoid this extraordinary item of an extra £1,000,000 being required for contracts, we cannot in each year get some figure which represents our maximum contractural liability. Why is that impossible? If we know the maximum time that one of these ships will take to build, and if the contractors can tell us the amount of time they will occupy in the building of the ship, why cannot we have in one year a sum given to us which will represent more or less the actual sum required eventually? There is an item of £260,000 spent on aircraft. I notice by the First. Lord's statement and by some remarks made by the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Lee) that we are going to start a competition with Germany in aircraft, and that we are going to have the German bogey in the air as well as on the sea.

Then the statement was made by some other hon. Member opposite and by the First Lord himself. Let us discuss in this House, and let us understand what this sum of money is required for. We ought to know what this perfectly new policy is going to be which the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Secretary of State for War decided upon during the recess or at the end of the Session. The money is practically spent, and after assembling here in the usual absolutely futile way, we are simply allowed to make a protest. That seems to me a most unfortunate arrangement, and one that the Admiralty ought to see is not repeated in the future. I notice that the construction of the three ships which are to comprise the Canadian contribution are referred to now as a matter of course. May I say that we have scarcely ever debated that question in this House at all. We have had one opportunity from 10.30 one night until eleven o'clock, which was occupied by two speeches, one of them made by the hon. Member for Burnley, who occupied twenty-five minutes, and the other was made by myself, and I occupied five minutes That is the only time the House of Commons has had any opportunity of discussing a policy which is of the very utmost importance from the Imperial point of view. Whether hon. Members agree with mo or not, it is a very important matter whether Canada should contribute in ships or money, and that matter has never been discussed in this House. I hope to have another opportunity of discussing the policy of the Canadian contribution when it will be in order to do so. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend who spoke last in advising that these Estimates, this meagre bit of flimsy paper with some figures on it, which represent vast liabilities and huge responsibilities, should be referred to the Estimates Committee in order that we may have some clear account given of what these items mean, what this money is wanted for, and what the money has been spent upon. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will take note of that and convey it to the Government.

I do not wish to allude to the particular reason which has led to this financial criticism to-night. We on this side of the House have urged upon the Government that they would have to spend more money on the Navy, and that they should make provision in the Budget for that purpose. The Estimate we are now considering is one of the most flagrant instances of the financial laxity which is creeping into our proceedings in this House. The Government of to-day have carried this matter of Supplementary Estimates to excess, but they will rely upon their followers to give a party vote, and they will ask us to make provision now which should have boon made in the Budget of the year. Such Estimates as these ought only to be asked for in a financial emergency. I do not propose to criticise the items which are devoted to the building of ships, which are so urgently required. It is somewhat noticeable that among the various increases which we are asked to vote to-night there is a decrease in the Vote of £207,000 in the sum of money to be expended on the hulls of ships. That is under Sub-head ( c ), and is a somewhat mysterious item which requires explanation why the Government is not able to expend the money estimated at the time when they are making such large provision for armour, gun-mountings, and so forth. Under gun-mountings I notice that only £50,000 is being taken, and that seems an inadequate sum for any serious expediting of the shipbuilding programme.

What I do want to remark upon is the general confusion which appears to have crept into this Supplementary Estimate. The Government has not only made provision for expediting the shipbuilding programme, but they have taken the opportunity to do a vast number of other things which have nothing whatever to do with the expediting of that programme, and which ought to have been included in the original Estimates of the year. There are very large sums for victualling and clothing and matters of that kind, and there are very large items for projectiles and ammunition. This is not the proper place to provide for an increase in the stores of ammunition. It ought to be done in the General Estimates for the year. This is a confession that there was not sufficient foresight in the Votes we were asked to make at the beginning of the last financial year. We have always urged that the provision of projectiles and ammunition was deficient, and we have asked numerous questions about it, and have not had a satisfactory answer. I am only too pleased that the Government are making a better provision, but it is not proper to put it in a Supplementary Estimate under the plea that they are making provision for accelerating shipbuilding. I think some protest should come from this side of the House against this laxity in financial matters. I am not going to vote against the Government to-night, because I believe that they are making up now, inadequately, for lost time. I am glad that they are making up for lost time, but they ought not to have lost it. We complain that these proceedings are in defiance of the old control of the House of Commons over finance, and I am glad to see that hon. Members on the other side of the House are awakening to this fact. We have raised this question again and again in connection with other matters, and we have not had their support. I think we ought all to act together in maintaining the control of the, House of Commons over finance, and I have only risen to-night to make a strong and, as far as I am able, a forcible protest against the way in which this Vote has been brought in and in which the proceedings have been conducted with regard to the Admiralty's Vote.

After the rather unkind remarks made about me by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mr. Ponsonby), I feel some hesitation in addressing the Committee, but I am very glad on this occasion he has spoken in front of me instead of it being the other way round. I desire very shortly to protest with all the force I can against the methods in which this Supplementary Estimate has been brought forward and against the amount. With regard to the method, I have the sympathy of the hon. Member who has just spoken and of a good many Members on that side of the House. These Estimates illustrate more clearly than anything has done within my recollection the utter helplessness of the House of Commons as things are now arranged. Here we are supposed to be the controlling authority over the finances of this country, and yet to-night the Committee is being asked to vote the sum of £2,500,000 in addition to Estimates which some of us thought already high enough and too high, not in respect of work that is to be done, but as an act of indemnity for work that has already been done. I say that is a serious and unconstitutional state of things. I think it will lead a good many supporters of the Government in the country to consider very seriously how they stand towards a Government which adopts such tactics as that. We were told, of course, by the First Lord that a good deal of this extra expense is automatic, that it is due to increased prices, and he addressed to us a long argument, which, I must say, did not seem to me very convincing, to show how he could not help himself, how we had already sanctioned the general body of this expenditure, and how, therefore, the increase followed as a matter of course; but even that excuse was not available as regards the £450,000 which represents the acceleration in building to make up, as we are told, for the three Canadian ships. My right hon. Friend did not even atempt to say that this was automatic expenditure; on the contrary, he said:— Nothing of the sort has happened. The question has never been discussed at all in this House. It has never been assumed by this House that these proposed ships, which Mr. Borden has provisionally promised, were to be included as part of the programme of the British Navy. On the contrary, Mr. Borden and his friends in Canada expressly said, when they offered £7,000,000 to build these ships, that it was to be considered over and above the margin of strength of the British Navy, and that it was to be considered altogether independent of the standard of 60 per cent. over Germany. Now we are told, because for the moment this scheme has broken down, that the programme of shipbuilding which was good enough last year must be altered. Is not that the position taken up? I know that sometimes it is suggested that this is only an acceleration, and my right hon. Friend tried to pretend that an acceleration was not the same as a new programme. I must say that is a quibble unworthy of the Government. Of course, an acceleration is an increase of strength of the Navy, just as a retardation of shipbuilding would be a diminution of strength. It is a deliberate alteration of the programme on the part of the Government without the sanction of the House, and behind the back of Parliament. They knew last July that they were intending this, and they might perfectly well have come to the House then, but, instead of doing that, they wait until nearly six months afterwards, and then they ask us to give them an Act of Indemnity.

The Government have, as a matter of fact, offered no defence whatever. My right hon. Friend made no defence. If I may say so, he skated very rapidly over that rather thin ice when making his statement first of all, knowing very well that he had no defence. He admitted it was deliberate overspending on his part and on the part of the Cabinet. The present Government, or, rather, its predecessors, when returned to office in 1906 were returned with two main purposes. I remember some of the promises held out in those days. The two main purposes were, firstly, due economy with regard to armaments, and, secondly, the restoration of the power of the House of Commons over expenditure, a power which they said had been unduly restricted by the other party when in power. I am sorry to find a Supplementary Estimate of this character brought forward, and the Liberal party asked to support the Government in this sort of business.

10.0 P.M.

I am afraid I shall disappoint the hon. Member for the Stirling Burghs (Mr. Ponsonby). I cannot pretend to come anywhere near filling the three places which he thought should be occupied—those of the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the First Lord of the Admiralty. Still, I will do what I can to answer the points raised. First let me deal with the speech of the hon. Member for Leicester. It was delivered four hours ago, but it is still ringing in my ears. As far as I can make out we were charged with wanton extravagance, with wasting public money to swell the dividends of private firms, with being simple, innocent, unsophisticated dupes of a Machiavellian International Shipbuilding Ring. We were charged with having conducted ourselves with reckless profligacy on the one hand, and idiotic incompetence on the other. We were further charged with having taken care to present a Supplementary Estimate that no man in this House can follow or understand. That is really a great tribute to us. I do not understand that my hon. Friend thinks that the form of this Estimate is deliberately misleading. He does not suggest that, but it has been suggested by him and by other hon. Gentlemen on both sides of this House, that the form is obscure and confusing. With great respect I venture to think that if a stranger had been amongst us to-day, he would almost have come to the conclusion that nobody had ever seen a Supplementary Estimate before. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Of this size."] Then is the objection to the size and not the form? My hon. Friends have been turning over the pages of this Supplementary Estimate as if it were a curiously rare and cryptic document which had mysteriously come to light and which had never been seen before. Watching them turning it over, and remembering that my name is upon it, I confess I began to lose my identity, and feel like a man suddenly dug out of some ancient catacomb and brought to life again. That, at any rate, is the impression left on me by the discussion. But we have had four Navy Supplementary Estimates in the last ten years, and all have been in the same time-honoured form. If the form is difficult, if it is obscure, at any rate it is not a novel form; it is not our form, it is a form established by custom. I will take care to make to the Treasury representations on the views expressed on both sides of the House. In the meantime, let me try, if I can, to throw some further light upon this Supplementary Estimate which no Member of this House, it is suggested, can either follow or understand. I hope I am a good democrat. I am, certainly, all for giving the fullest information to the House of Commons. I have never refused information, neither has the First Lord, or any Parliamentary Member of the Board, except on the ground of public interest. As to the suggestion that we desire to do anything prejudicial or detrimental to Parliamentary control, I can assure the hon. Member for Rutland (Mr. Gretton) that he is entirely mistaken. We have been overspending on the Estimate of 1913–14, and the result is this Supplementary Estimate. We have overspent, or rather shall have overspent on five of our Votes, Vote 2, three sections of Vote 8, and Votes 9, 10, and 11. The full amount of the overspending will be £3,132,000. To this sum will have to be added £24,000 Appropriations-in-Aid on Vote 2, which, to that extent, falls short of what we estimated when we put these Estimates before Parliament last year. Vote 8, Section III., again give us a shortage of £20,000 on the Appropriations-in-Aid, and on Vote 1 the Appropriations-in-Aid are short by £13,000. Therefore the Appropriations-in-Aid which we expected to get are short by £57,000, and if you add that to the £3,132,000 overspending on the five Votes, you get a total sum of £3,189,000. That is on one side of the balance-sheet. Against that, we have, or expect to have, by the 31st March, underspendings on Vote 8 (Sections II. and III.) and Votes 9, 10, and 1. The total underspending we estimate will be £528,000. In two of the Votes the Appropriations-in-Aid are more than we estimated. On Vote 8 (Section II.) and Vote 9, they are more by £161,000, and if you add that to the underspending on Vote 8 (Sections II. and III.) and Votes 9, 10, and 1, you get a total of £689,000, to which extent our Estimate is to the good. If I subtract our underspendings and excess Appropriations-in-Aid £689,000, from our total overspending and under-receipts of Appropriations-in- Aid £3,189,000, then I get the figure which is this Vote we are now asking for, £2,500,000. I hope I have made that quite clear. Then hon. Gentlemen say, "What authority have you to overspend to the extent, together with Appropriations-in-Aid, of £3,189,000, and only come down here for £2,500,000, because you have got underspendings and excess Appropriations-in-Aid to the extent of £689,000?" I will explain why it is we ask for the £2,500,000. The Naval Estimates to which this Vote is supplementary—the 1913–14 Estimates—are in the Appropriation Act, 1913. They there appear as Schedule "B," Part II. If the hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. David Mason) will turn to Section 5 of the Appropriation Act, 1913, he will read this:—

"So long as the aggregate expenditure on naval and military services respectively is not made to exceed the aggregate sums appropriated by this Act for those services respectively, any surplus arising on any Vote for those services, either by excess of the sum realised on account, of Appropriations-in-Aid on the Vote over the sum which may be applied under this Act as Appropriations-in-Aid of that Vote, or by saving of expenditure on that Vote, may, with the sanction of the Treasury, be temporarily applied either in making up any deficiency in the sums realised on account of Appropriations-in-Aid of any other Vote in the same Department, or in defraying expenditure in the same Department which is not provided for in the sums appropriated to the service of the Department by this Act, and which it may be detrimental to the public service to postpone until provision can be made for it by Parliament in the usual course."

That is the authority—the temporary sanction of the Treasury, under Section 5 of the Appropriation Act, 1913, which includes these Estimates—for the transfer of underspendings to the over-spendings.

If the hon. Gentleman will look at Section 6 of the Act, he will see that after the examination of appropriations by the Controller and Auditor-General, and by the Public Accounts Committee, that Section gives Parliamentary final sanction to the temporary transfers which have taken place in respect of the 1911–12 Estimates. It is quite true that if he wants to get the final Parliamentary sanction in ordinary circumstances for the transfers in 1913–14, he has to wait until the Appropriation Act, 1915. I will explain this. The accounts for 1913–14 will not be made up for some little time. The Accountant-General of the Navy will prepare an appropriation account and will hand it on to the Controller and Auditor-General, who will examine it in the fall of the year and will present early next year a Report to Parliament on the accounts for 1913–14, similar to the Reports to which my hon. Friend referred as having just been presented. The effect of this Supplementary Estimate is this: If we get this Vote we shall be getting Parliamentary sanction now to that to which we should not get it under the ordinary constitutional practice until 1915. So that, so far from putting things off, hon. Members will be voting for those transfers which they would not have had before them until the Appropriation Act, 1915. All talk of irregularity is entirely groundless. Our procedure has been strictly constitutional. It is for the House of Commons to say whether the constitutional practice is a good or a wise one. That is not in my hands. Our procedure is strictly constitutional in every particular.

It is worth noting, since we are on the question of the right to transfer funds, that prior to 1832 the Admiralty used to transfer under-spending to meet over-spendings on its Votes without either the knowledge or the sanction of the Treasury or of Parliament. In 1832 Sir James Graham made an arrangement by which those transfers were revealed in an appropriation account. But even then, although revealed in an appropriation account, the Admiralty had complete power, without either Treasury or Parliamentary sanction, to make those transfers. In 1846 a change was made in the Appropriation Act requiring Treasury approval to be given to such transfers, and, finally, in 1862 the Public Accounts Committee recommended and it was ultimately agreed that a further Amendment of the Appropriation Act should be made to the effect that the Treasury could only give temporary sanction, and that Parliament must have the whole thing put before it in an appropriation account, and should give or withhold its final sanction. That is what we are doing here, and, to cut a long story short, we are carrying out what has been the established constitutional practice of this country for the last fifty years, nothing more and nothing less. There is no irregularity. If my hon. Friends and hon. Gentlemen opposite disagree with the constitutional practice, it is open to Parliament to alter it, but in every particular we have followed precisely the constitutional practice of the country. Since Erskine May has been quoted, let me quote another short sentence, which seems to bear on the statement made by the First Lord on 26th March last as to the course he would take in regard to certain Votes. It seems particularly applicable to the present case:— respect of the contract part of Votes 8, 9 and 10, and the oil and air and increased dockyard expenses, which are all matters of policy, the difference between the original Estimate and the position in which we shall find ourselves on the 31st of this month is comparatively small. There is a gross Estimate of £48,333,194, Parliamentary Votes and Appropriations-in-Aid. That is the sum at our disposal. If you examine the position in which we find ourselves to-day with this Supplementary Estimate, outside all these matters, the contract part of Votes 8, 9 and 10, the oil and air and these increased dockyard charges, all matters of policy, you find that we got about £400,000 net overspending our Votes, and about £100,000 net excess in Appropriations-in-Aid. That is to say there is an under valuation, outside all these matters, of about £300,000 net, which is due first of all partly to increased variation in prices, which is very difficult to forecast. The hon. Member (Mr. Price) says that under Vote 11 G, we have put in an estimate of £20,000 a year for damage done by His Majesty's ships—a purely arbitrary vote.

No man can estimate what would be the damage which may be done in the course of manœuvring and sea service in His Majesty's ships. We put it at £20,000. That in the sum that is always put in, and it might be called a token vote. You cannot forecast that. The hon. Member asked what is the reason for the increase of £57,000. I cannot go into the matter fully because the cases are not finally settled, but, at any rate, there have been two very serious collisions, in which the "Centurion" and the "King Alfred" were involved, and in both cases we have had to admit liability. That is largely why we are asking £57,000 more. There were a number of claims for damage to fishing gear, about and after the time of the manœuvres. I hope my hon. Friend is quite satisfied that, having come at the beginning of the year and asked the amount stated in the original estimate, the fact that we are now asking £57,000 more is not an indication of careless estimating. This is a matter that cannot be foreseen, and the fact that a further sum is required casts no reflection upon the estimating officers at the Board of Admiralty. The variation is partly due also to the change in the New Zealand contribution. They have chosen to change their method. Their contribution, instead of being £100,000, has this year been fixed at £50,000. We could not foresee that. I would remind hon. Members that the Estimates were prepared in the fall of 1912. We first began spending on 1st April, 1913, and we shall make a large expenditure by 31st March, 1914. In their sketch form they were prepared quite eighteen months before the last of the expenditure. In their final form they were settled no less than fourteen months before the last of the expenditure. When you remember the great variety of circumstances, such as accidents, delays, and so on, you will find that this variation of £300,000, apart from what is due to policy, is something very slight. I am entitled to point out that the Estimates Committee, presided over by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), examined this very Estimate very carefully last year, and in their report they say:—

These Estimates for 1913–14 were considered in sketch form during the autumn of 1912 by the Estimates Committee, of which I have the honour to be President. We held nineteen meetings, at which Departmental officers were examined, and in addition there were all sorts of personal conferences and interviews between responsible officials, the First Lord and myself, in which we dealt with all sorts of points, and the results of these investigations, which I think I am entitled to say were of a very painstaking character, were submitted to the First Lord for final consideration. I think that I have covered the ground on the financial side, and I hope that I may now ask the Committee to come to a decision on this Amendment and to give us the Committee stage, at any rate, of this Vote.

May I have an answer to the question which I asked as to the necessity for laying before Parliament the prices which the Admiralty are paying, instead of keeping the House entirely in the dark on this question?

I did not hear the question, because unfortunately I was not on the bench at the moment, but if the hon. Baronet will take the evidence which was given before the Select Committee, I think that he will find the question very fully discussed here.

Then I shall be very glad to confer with the hon. Baronet on the matter, but I am afraid that I can give no other answer than that which was given after great deliberation before the Select Committee over which the hon. Baronet presided.

I wish to support the demand of the hon. Member for Mansfield. I think that no criticism which has been made is so worthy of reply as that of the hon. Member who asked that a statement should be made by the Admiralty as to the price paid for coal and munitions for war, so that all the facts might be known to the House. The hon. Member stated that he was interested in a company that had supplied coal to the Admiralty. They had supplied the coal at 2s. a ton above the ordinary price, and the Admiralty promptly thanked them for supplying it at such a cheap rate. I would point to this fact as substantiating the demand that the prices for armour plate and coal should be stated. There is a great deal at stake in this matter. We have withdrawn from us, first of all, all knowledge of foreign affairs, and we are also denied the information which is necessary to ensure to us that we can see that this money has been properly expended.

I should be very glad to deal with the point which has been raised by my hon. Friend and raised by the hon. Member for Mansfield, but after the Debate which has taken place I would not attempt on the spur of the moment, by such arguments as I could summon up, without full consideration, to deal with the question. If my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Mansfield will put down a question, I will present them with the reasons on this subject which have hitherto been held to be sufficient by the House of Commons. It is open to the House to revise their practice if they wish. More than that I cannot do. It is not that I do not attach importance to the questions, or that I do not realise the strength of the arguments used, but I do feel that I am not sufficiently prepared to reply to them to-night.

I think the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary has disposed of the arguments of hon. Members behind, and not one of them has risen except the hon. Member for Hanley. The discussion, however, shows how flimsy is the control of the House of Commons over these Estimates. Very large transfers have been made—perfectly legally—between one Vote and another in this financial year of 1913–14, and in the ordinary course these transfers will not come up for review till a very long time afterwards—until the Appropriation Act of 1913.

Under Section 5 of the Appropriation Act of 1913 the House could refuse to empower the Treasury to give temporary sanction to the transfers in that year.

If they did that it would show distrust of the Treasury and the Admiralty, which Parliament would be loath to do. These transfers would not come before Parliament practically until August of the second year afterwards, at a time when members are anxious to get away, and this ex post facto control can hardly be considered useful. The only other point I desire to make is as to how you have arrived at these financially round figures. Last week we had the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, and they were worked out very exactly and to very small sums. But in this instance we find large round sums. We find on Vote 2, £88,000; on Vote 8, £88,000; on another part of Vote 8, £733,000; then £1,125,000 and £320,000—all the sums set out together conveniently coming to £2,500,000. If this were a Vote on Account the matter would be explicable. Parliament votes certain sums within a margin, knowing that the balance will have to be made up later on. We are now at the end of the financial year, and the money is already spent, or if it has not been spent, it will be surrendered for the reduction of the National Debt, unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer prevents that, as he did to some extent last year. That, however, is not good accounting. Personally, I do not care for an exact system of water-tight compartments, but it is the law, and I ask how it is that at the end of the financial year the Admiralty come to the House for these round sums, instead of exactly estimating what the proportion would be. It certainly would seem that they had been making shots to cover the amount that would be required, as if they had no very exact estimate, and as if they were quite prepared, occasion arising, either to spend unnecessarily to get up to the amount of their Votes — which spending Departments are often accused of doing—or else careless as to what falls into the Sinking Fund. I suggest it is purely a matter of Admiralty finance, and that these sums do not bear relation to the actual sums spent or to be spent inside the financial year.

My right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, in explaining the Vote, referred back to the original Estimates (Navy) 1913–14. He said that in some cases the Appropriation-in-Aid had fallen short of the Estimate and in some cases had exceeded the Estimate, and if you deduct the underestimate from the overestimate and take the balance from the gross Supplementary Estimates, then referred back to the Appropriation Act of 1912–13, Clause 5, the Committee would understand the matter and in the autumn of 1915 when the Auditor-General reported on the 1913–14 Accounts the Committee would then see if the Vote had been properly applied. That is the sort of control this House has over these Estimates. Reference has also been made by my right hon. Friend to the Estimates Committee Report. I have sat on the Estimates Committee, and we had last year the Navy Estimates for 1913–14 before us, and we looked carefully through them, and we got such information as we could. I am bound to say that the staff answered us very fairly when they answered at all, but there were certain members who were frightened at telling us too much, asd so they told us nothing at all. I remember at the end of one day, after a long examination of an astute member, he was asked did he think there was anything of interest that he could tell the Committee that might be "in the interests of the public." I am afraid the "interests of the public" stops a good many things we would like to know. There is one thing I think the House ought to know, and which follows from what the hon. Member for Leicester said. I do not think the Admiralty or the First Lord or the Parliamentary Secretary are really their own masters. We found this out, and it cannot be denied, and no doubt that accounts for the acceleration o and retardation, and that is that there are only five firms in Great Britain which make armour plate, and only three firms in Great Britain who are members of that five, who make gun-mountings, and, of course, they are an association—that is not denied. The association fixes the price. I can remember the time when armour plate was £20 per ton, and to-day it is nearer £80 or £90.

It is to a large extent a question of tonnage, and not a question of a thick piece of plate. It may or may not be so, but it is a question of tonnage. I know that armour plate was quoted for twenty years by John Brown and Company at £18, and the quotation now is between £80 and £100. The Admiralty are helpless (unless you start making armour plate) and are absolutely in these men's hands; and when you want to ask the price you go to the secretary of the association, or their agent, and that is the mischief. When these men want to go on with the job they accelerate, and when they have other jobs they retard the operation. That is a most unsatisfactory position for any Admiralty to be in. We are in this House under the heel of these five firms. It is quite true they say, "Oh, we do not make a great deal of profit, we will open our books to show what we are doing." That, of course, is really humbug. I defy any man to go into these works and, unless he has a staff to occupy six months, make out what the producing price was, or what the profit was at all. All I know is that these firms have this country in their grip. America has killed the combination.

Can the hon. Member connect that in a special degree with the Estimate now before the Committee?

Certainly. The sum of £668,000 for armour plate is part of this Estimate. Surely I am entitled to show that the acceleration was caused by this tie to these firms. If we had had an open market, there need not have been so much acceleration. In criticising this Vote, I am entitled to show why it is so great, and why it is all rushed at one time. That is the whole point. It is a serious question for this House to consider, whether the Government should not be able themselves to put down plant and make their own armour plate and gun-mountings. It would need a good deal of capital and experience. The suggestion is that it would cost too much. Even if it did cost a little more, there would be no one interested in engendering these fears, and sending us into panic, as they do sometimes, causing us to rush into expenditure which we afterwards find might easily have been avoided. While these firms have this power, they are in arrangement with German firms—Krupps and others, and with firms in France. The British firms will not quote against the German and French firms, who in turn will not quote against our manufacturers. That is a nasty and unfortunate position to be in, and one of which we ought to struggle to rid ourselves if possible. There are many other questions that I should like to raise, but they are not relevant to this Vote, and I shall wait until the general policy can be discussed. The Estimates Committee had before it the Estimates for the year. The Estimate now before the Committee is a very important part of those Estimates and whether right or not, I shall certainly demand that it be submitted to the Estimates Committee for further report as a completion of the Estimates already submitted to it.

I feel very much inclined to support the Amendment, because I do not feel at all satisfied with the First Lord's explanation about our oil reserves. He has informed the Committee to-day that we have enough oil in reserve for three years' peace requirements and also for one year's war requirements. I should like to know how he or anybody else can tell what would be our war requirements! No one can possibly tell. As a matter of fact, we have at the present moment five battleships, sixteen light cruisers, and 120 cruisers built for oil only. A flotilla of twenty of these destroyers would use no less than 1,000 tons of oil per day, and therefore 120 destroyers would use 6,000 tons of oil per day. Hon. Members can therefore easily calculate what that would mean in time of war. The same calculation would apply to the battleships which would use an enormous amount of oil, and also to the light cruisers. If the right hon. Gentleman can assure the Committee that he has, at any rate, over 1,000,000 tons of oil in reserve, he will be entitled to ask for the support of the whole Committee. So far as he has explained to the Committee, I do not think we can be satisfied with his explanation. We are told the matter is entirely secret, that the Admiralty cannot tell the House what they have in reserve, nor can they tell the country, because it is a matter of national importance to keep secret our oil reserves. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that every other nation knows exactly what our oil reserves are. Anybody who likes to take the trouble to go round the oil depots of the United Kingdom can find out for themselves almost to a gallon what our oil reserves are. Therefore, for the right hon. Gentleman to come down and tell the Committee that he cannot even approximately give us the amount we have in reserve is most unsatisfactory. Secrecy is very important in this matter, and if it can be shown that we have an overwhelming amount of oil, well and good; but in July of last year I asked a question as to whether or not a contract for a million tons of oil had been made. The right hon. Gentleman at the time scoffed at the idea of the Navy requiring a million tons of oil. If he has not got one million tons of oil now, his reserve is totally inadequate for peace, let alone war time. I shall, if it goes to a Division, record my vote in favour of the Amendment—no matter what electioneering capital may be made out of it—as a protest against the insufficient information given to this House and the country on this very serious matter.

I cannot quite agree with the hon. Member for West Aberdeen, in what is said respecting the Estimates Committee. We had the Third Sea Lord, I think it was, before us for, if I remember correctly, throe or four days. He gave us most important and unreserved information in regard to the question of armour-plates. I am glad to note that the hon. Member for the Rushcliffe Division, who is also a member of the Committee, bears out what I say. I took up the inquiry rather with the idea that the Government were—to use an expression which may not be unparliamentary—being "done" in the matter. After the evidence given by the Third Sea Lord, I came to the conclusion that though it was a very difficult question the Admiralty were doing their best under very difficult circumstances. I think that was the general opinion of the Committee upon the matter.

In reply to the hon. Member opposite as to a suggested discrepancy in our figures, coupled with the complaint that we did not give the precise amount of the Estimate, and the suggestion that money we do not get rid of should be returned to the Sinking Fund, let me say that, in the main, the great bulk of the fabric is very closely estimated—carried, indeed, to the narrowest possible margin. Whenever we have precise, definite information we estimate down to the last possible detail. If the hon. Member turns to page 24, Vote 10 (F), "Redemption of rent-charges upon branch railways into His Majesty's dockyards," he will find a very close estimate. The Estimate is £5,409. Where we have a precise charge we estimate down to the last pound.

Yes; I have no case in the Supplementary where there is that precise knowledge, and therefore we estimate in round figures. Here in Vote 10 of the main Estimate you have "Annuities— repayment in advances under naval works Acts £1,311,558. When it is not possible to say absolutely what the figure is down

to the smallest possible margin, we estimate in round figures.

It is easier to have a close Estimate at the end of the financial year than at the beginning. Apparently the right hon. Gentleman has taken the nearest Estimate at the beginning of the financial year, and after an experience of eleven months he breaks off into round figures in which there is never any break in the thousands.

I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has given the Committee the whole explanation. Is it not a fact that there has been a discussion in the Cabinet about these Estimates? The Cabinet fixed the sum, and the Admiralty had to cut their cloth according to their measure. The Cabinet refused to find more than £2,500,000, and the Admiralty have to make their Estimates accordingly. They had to under-spend and to make reductions in the sums already voted. That is the position to which we are reduced. We are asked to falsify what we did at the beginning of the financial year. The position is not a right one for the House of Commons, and the whole financial position is entirely unsatisfactory.

Question put, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,499,900, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 34, Noes, 237.

Original Question again proposed.

It being after Eleven of the clock, and objection being taken to further proceeding, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Tuesday).

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

Public Petitions

Ordered, that a Select Committee be appointed, to whom shall be referred all Petitions presented to the House, with the exception of such as relate to Private Bills; and that such Committee do classify and prepare abstracts of the same, in such form and manner as shall appear to them best suited to convey to the House all requisite information respecting their contents, and do report the same from time to time to the House; and that the reports of the Committee do set forth, in respect of each Petition, the number of signatures which were accompanied by addresses, and which are written on sheets headed in every case by the prayer of the Petition, provided that on every separate sheet after the first the prayer may be reproduced in print or by other mechanical process; that such Committee have power to direct the printing in extenso of such Petitions, or of such parts of Petitions, as shall appear to require it; and that such Committee have power to report their opinion and observations thereupon to the House.

Committee accordingly nominated of Mr. Agar-Robartes, Lord Charles Beresford, Sir William Bull, Mr. Burt, Mr. Charles Craig, Mr. Hackett, Mr. Leicester Harmsworth, Mr. Hughes, Mr. Haydn Jones, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Ormsby-Gore, Sir Reginald Pole-Carew, Mr. Reddy, and Mr. Stanier.

Ordered, that Three be the quorum.—[ Mr. Illingworth .]

Privy Council (Ireland.)

On Thursday last I gave notice I would on the following day or to-night call the attention of the House to a matter arising out of a question I had put; but under the Rules of the House I was unable on Friday to call the attention of the House to the question which had reference to the presence of a Member of this House at a meeting of His Majesty's Privy Council in Ireland. I want to recall to the recollection of the House what was going on in Dublin during the strike. A strike leader, James Larkin, on Thursday, 28th August, was returned for trial charged with a very serious crime. He was admitted to bail, but on Sunday, the 31st August, he was arrested during a riot that took place at a meeting which had been proclaimed, and after several appearances before the police magistrate was ultimately returned for trial. He was tried on the 28th October, and was sentenced to seven months' imprisonment, the learned judge characterising his crime as of a very serious character. In a fortnight afterwards, for some reason unexplained to the present moment, he was released. On the 15th December, although the grand jury of the city of Dublin had returned a true bill, for some reason still unexplained by the Executive, the prosecution of Larkin was not proceeded with. Mr. Justice Kenny on that occasion criticised the conduct of the Government in these words:—

"The course adopted by the Executive is not fair either to the community or to the accused."

In these circumstances I had hoped, by my question, to throw some little sidelight upon the mystery of the trial and release of Larkin, and by asking this question in regard to the activities and interviews of the hon. Member for Pontefract, I hoped to get that light. It seems that the form of the question was somewhat technical. It asked whether he had been present at a meeting of the Irish Privy Council. Had I asked had he been at a meeting or several meetings of the Executive in Ireland I should have been strictly correct. Why was the hon. Member there at all? He told us in an interesting speech on the 18th of last month that he was not there in the interests of the workmen, although a deputation had waited on him and appealed to him for over an hour. He was not there in the interests of the employers, but he frankly admitted:—

"I arrived in Dublin—"

There is not enough courage in you to be a volunteer for anything, except £400 a year. [An HON. MEMBER: "Do not you take yours?"] I do, and I spend it on the volunteer movement. The hon. Gentleman frankly admitted that he was there as a politician pure and simple. He said:—

"I arrived in Dublin a supporter of the Government and a great admirer of the Chief Secretary and the Lord-Lieutenant."

Then he goes on to speak of the Dublin Executive and to say:—

"So far from wishing to say anything disagreeable or to be found here complaining of the action of the Dublin Executive, anything further from my mind I cannot imagine."

Neither can I imagine anything further from his mind under the circumstances. Of course, I do not expect to get the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in an official answer. Neither from my experience in this House nor from what has happened in Dublin, nor from what happened on Thursday, do I expect to get it from the hon. Member for Pontefract.

I do not think that one hon. Member ought to make an accusation of that kind against another. We are in the habit of extending to one another ordinary courtesy.

If I have used any un-Parliamentary language, of course, I withdraw, but, at the same time, I must say that I can hardly expect the whole truth in answer to this question from the repository of the secrets of the Government. Here I have a quotation from the hon. Member himself, written to the "Times," on 9th September. He said:—

"His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant has been good enough to-day to request me to attend as a witness to give a frank and impartial statement"—

That was before the magistrate. I want to know by what right or authority the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland requested the hon. Gentleman or anyone to give evidence in a matter which had then been pending before the magistrates for several days on a very serious and grave charge, when he was advised, as I presume he was advised by the responsible law officers of the Crown. The hon. Member went on to speak of an interview in a subsequent letter to the "Times" of 16th September. He says:—

"In an interview at Dublin Castle on the subject of the labour trouble in that city, I asked for the advice of His Excellency. The Lord-Lieutenant was good enough to express himself in favour of my giving the magistrate an impartial statement of what I actually saw."

It is a cardinal rule of this House that his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant cannot be criticised in any way except on a specific Motion framed for the purpose. The hon. Member in criticising him is abrogating the Rules of the House.

I have been wholly unable so far to discover what the hon. Member is raising. It appeared to me to be some matter relating to the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth). I do not think that these occasions are intended for hon. Members to debate matters with one another. Of course, if it is a matter connected with Ireland, it must be the Chief Secretary and not the Lord Lieutenant who is the officer responsible to the House, and I invite the hon. and learned Member to attach any responsibility to the Chief Secretary.

Who was present at this interview to which the hon. Member refers? Was the Attorney-General present at that or any other interview? Was the Under-Secretary or the Chief Secretary present? Was any other person? If so, were the others members of the Privy Council? The subject referred to was the labour trouble and the prosecution of Larkin. What would Englishmen think of a Member of this House, no matter on what side he sat, who came obtruding himself in that department of the English Executive that has charge of the prosecutions in the country? It is almost unthinkable that any Member of this House or any other person could or would be allowed for a moment to obtrude himself in a room of the department of the Director of Criminal Prosecutions when there was a consultation going on regarding a prosecution arising out of a labour trouble. Yet that is what we suffer from in Ireland, and that is an example of the maladministration of the law in Ireland under a weak and partisan Lord Lieutenant. What we want to get at are the facts, and we can then put our own construction on them. This whole performance of the Irish Executive in regard to Larkin was a discreditable piece of wire-pulling from beginning to end, and the chief wire-puller was the hon. Member (Mr. Booth). I understand the Chief Secretary was absent during these visits, otherwise I do not suppose he would have encouraged or allowed the hon. Member's visit to the Castle under the circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman gave me an answer on Thursday which I think was unworthy of him and the great office he fills. I think he is secretly ashamed of it, or he would have been here to-night to answer it. He simply rode off upon an elusive and evasive answer. I do not know whether it was meant to deceive, but it did deceive, not only Members of the House but the public—the same class of answer that his colleagues gave when they were charged with certain dealings in Marconi shares last year. I repeat my question, and insist upon an answer. The question is this, Whether he was present when the prosecution of James Larkin was discussed between Lord Aberdeen and the Attorney-General for Ireland?

The hon. Member is putting a question to a private Member of the House. That, of course, is not open to him at question time, nor on this Motion.

I put it to the only Irish Member of the Government now present, the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture. He is one of the Irish Executive, and I wish to know whether the hon. Member for Pontefract was present at a meeting when the prosecution of James Larkin was discussed between Lord Aberdeen and the learned Attorney-General for Ireland; whether others were present at the same time; whether all those others present were members of the Privy Council; whether the discussion took place in Dublin Castle; and what part the hon. Member took in it?

A question has been asked of the Government, and no one answered. I suppose the Chief Secretary has been prevented by ill-health from attending, for I am sure he would not be prevented through discourtesy. Some of his colleagues, I assume, would receive instructions, and, as a matter of ordinary courtesy and proper respect to the House, I suppose some one will rise to reply to the question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Russell."]

I am at a total loss to understand how it is possible to bring me into the question. [An HON. MEMBER: "Foot-and-Mouth disease."] I have work of my own to attend to—quite enough of it, and all that I have to say is that I know nothing whatever about this matter.

I think the House has reason to complain of the noisy and ill-mannered interruptions of hon. Members.

These interruptions show the very great inconvenience caused by hon. Gentlemen belonging to the party opposite insisting upon sitting on this side of the House. I was going to say when I was interrupted—[Interruptions].

I hope hon. Members, in the few moments that remain, will allow the Noble Lord to proceed.

I think the House has some reason to complain that the responsible Member of the Government who ought to answer the question addressed to the Government by my hon. Friend is not here. He is not here, and he has not instructed his subordinate, the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture in Ireland, to give a reply, as is often done when the Chief Secretary is not present. I must say that it is greatly wanting in courtesy that a question of this character should not be answered, for it is one of importance. It appears to show that in Ireland a Member of Parliament, in no way connected with the Government of Ireland, was allowed to be present at a meeting of the Privy Council—

Mr. RUSSELL rose—

The question was answered by the Chief Secretary on Thursday last, and he said that the hon. Member never was present at the Privy Council, and the hon. Member himself said he was not aware that there was such a body.

I really do not know what the hon. Member is aware of. [HON. MEMBERS: "Courtesy" and "Order."]

If the Noble Lord will give me assistance, I will see that he has proper hearing.

I was not complaining of you, Sir. I was not intending to make the slightest criticism of anything that fell from you. I repeat what I said on the first day of this Session as to the very grave inconvenience—

Again I must point out to the Noble Lord that if he will be good enough to address the Chair, the Chair will be able to save him from any annoyance. But by turning away from the Chair he encourages the very thing which he deprecates.

Whether he was actually at a meeting of the Privy Council or not, I am quite ready to accept the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that he was not. There certainly was a meeting of the Privy Council. There certainly was a consultation, as I understand, about the administration of justice in Ireland. It is certainly a matter to be explained how the hon. Member came to be consulted on a matter of this importance, and what advice he gave, and why his advice was asked for in the matter. I do not reflect on the hon. Member's conduct in any way, but he was not concerned in any way with Irish administration. He was a mere tourist in Ireland. This is a serious question affecting the government of Ireland which deserves a serious answer. We have reason to complain that the Chief Secretary is not present and has not given instructions to some other Member to be present to answer the question. I hope that in a matter of this importance we shall not again be left without a reply from the Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Booth!"]

I wish to draw attention to a communication which I had from a very important council, not the Irish Privy Council, but an urban district council, about excessive smoke—[Interruption.]

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned at Twenty-nine minutes after Eleven o'clock.