House of Commons
Tuesday, March 3, 1914
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors (Sunday)
I beg to present a Petition signed by 176 inhabitants of the widely scattered and sparsely populated district of Slaidbum showing "that your Petitioners believe that the common sale of intoxicating liquors on Sunday is wrong in principle and injurious in practice. Your Petitioners therefore pray your honourable House to pass the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill."
Private Business
Private Bills (No Standing Orders not previously inquired into applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, no Standing Orders not previously inquired into, are applicable, namely:—
Wadhurst and District Gas Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be committed.
Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Riddings District Gas Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be committed.
Glasgow Corporation (Celluloid) Bill,
To be read a second time upon Monday next.
Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday, at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Marriages Provisional Order Bill,
Read a second time, and committed.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 21) Bill (by Order),
Third Reading deferred till Monday next.
Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 8) [Kingstown] Bill,
To be printed. [Bill 84.]
Ecclesiastical Commission
Copy presented of the Sixty-sixth Report from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England, with an appendix [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Street Accidents Caused by Vehicles
Return presented relative thereto [Address, 26th February; Mr. Ellis Griffith ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Navy
Estimates presented for the year 1914–15, with Explanations of Differences [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Copy presented of Statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty explanatory of the Navy Estimates, 1914–15 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Local Government Board (Ireland)
Copy presented of the Labourers (Ireland) Order, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Civil Services and Revenue Departments, 1914–15 (Vote on Account)
Estimate presented showing the several Services for which a Vote on Account is required for the year ending 31st March, 1915 [by Command]; Referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 135.]
Standing Committees
Ordered, That all Standing Committees have leave to print and circulate with the Votes the Minutes of their Proceedings, and any Amended Clauses of Bills submitted to them.—[ Mr. Eugene Wason. ]
Selection (Standing Committees)
SIR DANIEL GODDARD reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Mr. Fred Hall (Normanton); and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Albert Smith.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee A the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Grey Seals (Protection) Bill): Major Anstruther-Gray, Mr. Barnes, Mr. Currie, Viscount Dalrymple, Sir John Dewar, Mr. Harry Hope, Mr. Macpherson, Mr. Lyell, Sir Wilfrid Lawson, Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. O'Shaughnessy, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Cathcart Wason, Mr. William Watson, and Marquess of Tullibardine.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee: That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee A (in respect of the Children (Employment and School Attendance) Bill): Mr. Clough and Captain Waring; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the said Bill): Mr. Secretary M'Kenna and Mr. Cawley.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Persia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the security for the repayment of the sums of £50,000 and £120,000 lent to the Persian Government in 1911–12 and 1912–13?
The financial advances made by His Majesty's Government to the Persian Government are secured on the Customs and Excise Receipts of Southern Persia; they are repayable out of a loan if such be made, or if none is concluded before 1st January, 1915; the advance will be repaid by half-yearly instalments of £25,000.
May I ask whether British Government control over the Southern Customs is such as to make the security good?
I would ask the hon. Gentleman to give notice of that question.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he could give any information as to affairs in Kerman and Persian Beloochistan; whether the trade route from Bandar Abbas to Kerman is now safe for caravans or not; and, if not, whether he will consider the advisability of lending a few British and Mahomedan officers to the Persian Government to form a force of Persian levies to protect the road?
The present situation in the districts mentioned is far from satisfactory, though I have no information of any actual robbery on the Bunder Abbas-Kerman road since May last. A force of gendarmes under three Swedish officers which proceeded to Kerman last autumn has within the last few days inflicted considerable loss on a force of Baluchis near Bam. A new Governor-General, a Bakhtiari Khan, is proceeding to Kerman, and is expected on arrival at his post to take suitable measures for the maintenance of order. In the circumstances, I am not contemplating any such steps as those suggested in the last part of the question.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, seeing that, this route is entirely within the British sphere of influence, it would not be desirable to take some such steps as the formation of Persian levies under British officers?
For the reason I have given in the answer, we are not contemplating any such steps at present. It seems, of course, a very simple thing to say that a few officers should form Persian levies, but, small as it is, it might turn out to be the commencement of much larger developments, and I would rather put it off as long as possible.
Balkans
asked what change, if any, in the situation in the Balkans is occasioned by the renunciation of Greek authority by the Epirotes?
I am not clear as to what the hon. Member means by "renunciation of Greek authority by the Epirotes." Northern Epirus is, by international agreement, to form part of the new State of Albania; Greek authority, as far as it exists in that region, is based on military occupation of recent date, and will shortly be terminated by the withdrawal of the Greek forces there.
Mexico
Protection of British Subjects
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in consideration of the anxiety that exists in regard to the safety of British subjects in Mexico, he is prepared to lay upon the Table of the House of Commons Papers showing the communications which have passed between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States in reference to the state of things which prevails in Mexico?
I must refer the hon. Member to paragraphs 4 and 5 of the answer given on 23rd February to the hon. Member for North Down when I stated that I would lay Papers as soon as it was possible to do so, but that the most interesting of the Papers were from the Government of the United States, which I could not lay without their leave.
Questions
Death of Mr. Benton
asked whether General Villa is recognised as a belligerent by the British or by the United States Government, or by both Governments?
The answer is in the negative as far as His Majesty's Government are concerned. His Majesty's Government are unaware that the United States Government have made any declaration on this point.
Is it made clear in the communications with Washington that this country must hold the United States responsible, as this murder arose out of the anarchy following upon non-recognition—
That question does not arise out of the answer.
General Huerta's Government
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how long elapsed between the date of the murder of the late President of the Mexican Republic and the recognition by the British Government of General Huerta's Government; if, before this step was taken, any assurances were asked for or obtained with regard to the protection of British subjects resident in Mexico; and what period elapsed between the date of the murder of the late King of Servia and the formal recognition by Great Britain of his successor, and the period between the deposition of King Manoel of Portugal and recognition of the Republican Government in that country?
The death of President Madero took place on 22nd February, 1913. His Majesty's Government recognised General Huerta's provisional Government at the end of March last, because they were advised that such recognition would best contribute to the re-establishment of order, which was a matter of the first importance to British subjects and British interests in Mexico. No assurances were obtained from him, and the action taken by His Majesty's Government was in accordance with general practice. The late King of Servia's death took place in 1903; diplomatic relations were renewed in 1906. The deposition of King Manoel took place in October, 1910, and the Republican Government was recognised on 9th November following. These two cases are not analogous to the case of Mexico.
Portuguese West Africa (Mr. Bowskill's Arrest)
asked whether, having regard to the arrest of the Rev. Mr. Bowskill in Portuguese West Africa, the information in possession of His Majesty's Government is that when the rebels in Portuguese West Africa attacked San Salvador the head Portuguese official fled and hid himself in Mr. Bowskill's bathroom?
It would appear from the letters written by Mr. Bowskill and communicated to the Foreign Office that on the occasion of the attack on San Salvador a Portuguese official did take refuge in Mr. Bowskill's sitting-room.
And is this the official, who so saved his life, the man who has placed Mr. Bowskill under arrest?
I am not sure of that. The information which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary gave to the House yesterday was that we were expecting information on the 4th March. Inquiries are being made with all speed.
San Thomé
asked how many labourers were recently taken by force from the Portuguese Congo to the plantations of San Thomé?
I am not aware that any labourers have recently been taken by force from Portuguese Congo to San Thomé.
Great Britain and France
asked whether negotiations are in progress or pending between His Majesty's Government and the Government of the French Republic concerning any interests, political, commercial, economic, or financial, affecting the two countries in any part of the world; and, if that be so, whether it is proposed to embody the results of these negotiations in the form of a treaty, understanding, or agreement, and at what date?
There are always a large number of questions respecting which His Majesty's Government carry on discussions and correspondence with the the French as with other Governments, as, for instance, fishery regulations, boundary questions, arms traffic, and the reciprocal repatriation of pauper lunatics, upon which an agreement is under negotiation. But these are all separate matters of detail and there is no intention of embodying them in a new treaty with France, nor would any of them justify in the ordinary sense of the words a statement that a new treaty with France is under negotiation.
Does the right hon. Gentleman intend the House to infer that there are no financial or economic arrangements now being discussed between this country and France in regard to the Middle East and the Baghdad Railway?
There are various matters of detail constantly under discussion with the French Government, and not with the French Government alone. There is nothing in the ordinary sense of the word that means a new treaty, or anything affecting the relations of the two Governments in any way.
Is it not a fact that arrangements are being made between this country and France with regard to certain financial and economic matters?
I wish to have notice of that question. It is difficult to answer with regard to particular points when one is asked without notice.
New Hebrides
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any conversations have taken place with France relating to the position in the New Hebrides since the last Papers referring to that question were laid upon the Table of the House; and, if so, whether he will consider the advisability of circulating further Papers on the subject?
I have already on several occasions stated that His Majesty's Government are actually in communication with the French Government in order to improve the working of the Condominium. There have been various instances brought to our notice, as is well known, showing certain grievances that exist in the New Hebrides. We have asked the French Government to confer with us so that the joint administration may be improved. If, as I hope, this leads to definite results, I shall be prepared to lay Papers explaining them.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether since the appointment of the Condominium Government of the New Hebrides any suggestion has been made by this country to France for the purchase of French rights in these islands or for the surrender of those rights in exchange for compensating advantages in some other part of the world; and, if not, whether he can see his way to advise His Majesty's Government to open negotiations with France for the purpose of making such arrangements as will lead to the cession of all French rights in the New Hebrides to this country, with a view of the administration of the islands being handed over to the Commonwealth of Australia?
No suggestion of the nature proposed has been made to the French Government since the establishment of the Condominium Government in December, 1908. I am not aware that the Commonwealth of Australia is prepared to entertain a suggestion for the acquisition of the French rights in the New Hebrides by purchase or exchange of territory; and His Majesty's Government have no present intention of asking Parliament to vote money for the purchase of French rights in the New Hebrides or to agree to the surrender of British territory elsewhere in exchange, even supposing the French Government were prepared to entertain such a negotiation.
Would the right hon. Gentleman confer with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies asking him if he would send some message to the Commonwealth of Australia to see if they would not, in common with Australia, accept responsibility for the New Hebrides?
I gather the hon. Member's suggestion to be that we should ask the Government of Australia whether it would be prepared to take over the New Hebrides.
Yes.
We could not put that, in my opinion, before the Government of Australia without asking them at the same time whether they would themselves be prepared to undertake the purchase, or to give exchange of territory, and that, of course, opens a very large question.
North-West Frontier, India
asked the Undersecretary of State for India whether increased lawlessness and insecurity has lately prevailed upon the North-West Frontier of India; and, if so, whether he can state the reasons therefor and the measures taken to restore a normal condition of order and peace?
I would refer the hon. Member to the full answer which I gave yesterday to the question of the hon. Member for Brentford.
As that is not an oral answer, may I ask the Under-Secretary to state whether the Government of India is satisfied with the existing situation?
The answer which I gave is circulated with the Votes. I think that the hon. Member would probably be able to satisfy himself on the subject by reading the answer that has been given.
asked whether a punitive expedition has lately been sent against the Bunerwals on the North-West Frontier of India; what was the nature of the offence which had to be punished; how many villages were destroyed; how many lives were lost; and were chose who were slaughtered the same men who had committed the offence?
In consequence of two serious raids by the Bunerwals in the Mardan district, in which eight British subjects were murdered, a British force manœuvring in the neighbourhood was dispatched on 21st February against the two villages principally offending. The troops returned on the 23rd February, without casualties, having destroyed the villages, taken ten prisoners, many cattle, and a few rifles. The raiders' losses are stated to have been small.
Appeals Against Acquittals (India)
asked whether conditions in India have greatly changed since the law allowing appeals by the Government against acquittals was passed; and whether there is any evidence that such appeals have been lightly sanctioned or have resulted in miscarriages of justice?
The Secretary of State doubts whether the changed conditions in India referred to by the hon. Member have much bearing on the considerations which led to the law in question. He is not aware that the power of appealing against acquittals has been lightly exercised by local governments, or has resulted in miscarriage of justice; but the whole question is under his careful consideration.
Will the hon. Member bear in mind with reference to this that there were no fewer than twenty-six cases in ten years in which prisoners who were acquitted in the Court below were convicted by the superior Court and sentenced to be hanged, and, having regard to the inconsistency between that system and our system, will he see that amendment is made in that direction?
The whole matter is under consideration, and the fact referred to has no doubt been brought to the attention of the Secretary of State.
Newspapers (India)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he will lay information as to the proceedings taken against the owners of presses and newspapers under the Press Act of 1910, showing the security required to be deposited; the security declared to be forfeited; and the number of presses confiscated and newspapers suppressed?
I will lay Papers giving the information that my hon. Friend desires so far as action of a punitive character is concerned, as regards not only owners of presses but also publishers of newspapers.
Sitapur Murder
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the doubts that exist as to the justice of the sentence in the Sitapur murder case, for which two men were hanged and one is still imprisoned for life after being acquitted by the only Court that had the accused men and the witnesses for the prosecution before it; whether he has considered the following facts: that it was found both by the Court that acquitted the men and by the Court that set aside the acquittal that no motive could be found for the alleged murder; that, according to the theory of the prosecution, the murder was committed in broad daylight, within the area of the village, at a place where five ways meet, and in the immediate vicinity of several houses; that the murdered man was a powerful man, and the medical evidence showed that there were thirty-nine wounds upon the body caused by cutting weapons, but that no evidence was brought by the prosecution to show that there were any signs of a struggle on the ground where the murder was alleged to have been committed or any marks of blood upon the persons or clothing of the accused; that all the witnesses for the prosecution except one had recently been engaged in a civil lawsuit with the accused men in which the accused men had defeated them and were known to be personally hostile to the accused men; that the only Court which saw the witnesses and heard their evidence acquitted the prisoners on the express ground that the evidence of these witnesses was untrustworthy; that the murdered man was last seen alive at the house of the wealthiest and most powerful of the witnesses for the prosecution, a man named Jagdish Singh, who is the principal landowner in the village; that this man's servant, although admittedly present at the alleged scene of the murder before anyone else, was never called as a witness by the prosecution; that it is stated in the prisoners' petition to the Government of India, a petition which unfortunately reached the Government too late, that this servant of Jagdish Singh had been carrying on an intrigue with the wife of the murdered man and now keeps this woman; and that he is a man who has been several times prosecuted for murder; and whether, in view of these facts and other suspicious circumstances affecting this case, he will cause further inquiry to be made into the matter with a view to the release of the man who is still imprisoned?
The Secretary of State cannot accept as accurate my hon. Friend's summary of the evidence, nor does he follow him in the inferences which he seeks to draw from it. The theory of the murder suggested in the question was not put forward until after the conclusion of the trial of the three accused in the Judicial Commissioners' Court, and has not been substantiated.
Is the hon. Member aware that the facts stated in this question are taken straight from the White Paper presented to this House last Session, and is the fact that these men were not adequately defended at their first trial a sufficient reason, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, for refusing to consider their case now?
I cannot agree with the hon. Member that the facts are accurately summarised, but all these points have been taken into consideration by the Secretary of State.
If I put down another question, will my hon. Friend be willing to state in what particulars the summary is inaccurate?
That had better be put down.
Is there not some reason to believe that the judge who acquitted Bachan Singh took this view of the evidence, and changed his opinion?
The judge who acquitted the man referred to did not change his opinion as to the correctness of the conviction in the first case. There was a difference in the evidence.
asked the Undersecretary of State for India if he will give further information as to the circumstances attending the acquittal, on the 13th May, of Bachan Singh, one of the four men charged with taking part in the Sitapur murder; whether the Judicial Commissioner on this occasion had before him any of the same witnesses as those who were brought against the other three; whether the acquittal of this prisoner was based upon the same grounds as those upon which the other three were originally acquitted by the Sessions Judge, namely, that these witnesses were not trustworthy witnesses, or if not, what was the reason for the acquittal; and whether the Secretary of State will lay upon the Table a copy of the judgment of the Judicial Commissioner, and of the evidence and proceedings in this case?
I will place in the Library a copy of the Record of both trials of Bachan Singh, which includes a plan of the scene of the murder. My hon. Friend will then be able to see the reasons which led to the acquittal of Bachan Singh on appeal, but it is not easy to summarise an elaborate judgment.
Will the hon. Member state how it was that the trial of Bachan Singh was kept from this House altogether when we were discussing the case of the other three men?
I think that the information about Bachan Singh was not in the possession of the Secretary of State at the time of the discussion.
Is it a fact that the acquittal of Bachan Singh was after he himself had been before the Court of Appeal by which these other men were convicted?
I think that that is not correct.
Will the hon. Member find out why the Record of the trial of Bachan Singh was deliberately kept from the knowledge of the Secretary of State?
Delhi
asked what is the estimated total cost of the move of the capital from Calcutta to Delhi; and whether it is still maintained that the cost will not largely exceed £4,000,000?
There probably will be some excess over the original estimate of £4,000,000;, but how much it cannot at present be said. The engineers' and architects' proposals are being subjected to a close scrutiny and revision by the Government of India with a view to effecting all possible economies consistent with the requirements of a new Imperial city.
Will not the excess exceed the whole original estimate in all probability?
The Government of India has not given any figure at all at the present time. I am quite unable to add anything to what I have already stated.
British Army
Non-Commissioned Officers and Men (Married)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will publish the Report of the Committee appointed by him to inquire into the position of the non-commissioned officers and men married off the strength; and whether he proposes to do anything to remove their just grievances?
I am sending the hon. Gentleman an advance copy of the Report.
Special Reserve
asked the Secretary of State for War whether it is his intention to publish the interim Report of the Departmental Committee on the Special Reserve; and whether his Report will be circulated to Members with the Army Estimates?
I have given instructions for this Report to be presented to Parliament this week.
asked what is the establishment and the strength of the Special Reserve, differentiating the Infantry and other branches, and also giving separately the establishment and strength of officers and men; and what were the corresponding figures twelve months ago?
If the hon. Gentleman will permit me, I will circulate these figures, which are somewhat lengthy, with the Votes.—[ See Written Answers this date. ]
Is the shortage greater or less than last year?
I cannot deal with it piecemeal. It is a very long document.
National Reserve
asked what is the total strength of the National Reserve in the United Kingdom; how many are registered under Class I. and Class II., respectively; what axe the medical requirements in each class; and whether all the men in both classes have been medically examined?
The total strength, on 1st January, 1914, was 217,680, of which number 13,765 were registered in Class I. and 45,722 in Class II. The former only are required to undergo a medical examination similar to that undergone by soldiers of the Regular Army; for the latter fitness for home defence service is the requirement.
How many drafts have been medically examined?
The examination is still proceeding, and the number is still increasing.
asked whether every National Reservist registered under Classes I. and II. has signed a definite engagement to present himself for service when required in time of national danger?
Every National Reservist in Classes I. and II. has signed the following declaration:—"I (description of man follows) undertake, in the event of imminent national danger, to place my services at the disposal of His Majesty the King for General Service (Class I.); for Home Defence (Class II.)."
Home Army
asked the number of officers, non-commissioned officers and men required to complete the establishment of the Home Army at the present time; is it the intention of the authorities to add one or more Cavalry regiments to the strength of the British Army; and is it intended that the Royal Scots Greys shall go to India or South Africa for a turn of service when it comes to their turn on the roster?
The number required to complete on 1st February was 13,680. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative. The moves to take place during the year 1914–15 were published in Army Order 31 of this year. I can add nothing at present to what is there stated.
Rawal Pindi (Sickness Among Mounted Troops)
asked the Secretary for War whether he can state the percentage of sickness among the British mounted troops at Rawal Pindi in the summer months; whether a large number of men are in hospital owing to malaria; and whether mounted troops are taken to the hill stations during the summer months?
The percentage of sickness among British mounted troops at Rawal Pindi for the seven summer months of 1913 was eight per cent. The returns available in this country do not show the causes of sickness. Men requiring change to the hills are sent there under medical advice, but mounted troops do not go to the hills as specific mounted units.
May I ask whether the care of the horses is considered in preference to the men?
The ground is not suitable for the use of mounted troops.
I am asking about the men, and not as to the use of the ground.
I think the hon. Member had better put down another question.
Supply of Bayonets
asked the Secretary for War whether he has formed an estimate of the number of bayonets required to be provided for the service of the Army during the coming financial year; and what proportion will be ordered from private firms?
Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to refer him to the answer given to the right hon. Member for the Hallam Division and the hon. Member for the Ecclesall Division last Friday.
Questions
Northern Junction Railway Bill
asked the Secretary for War whether he or the Army Council, or any responsible Departmental officer of the War Office, has stated that the projected railway which is the subject of the Northern Junction Railway Bill now awaiting Second Reading, or the similar Bill rejected last year by the Select Committee, was a necessity to the War Office and to the military authorities who would warmly support it on national grounds only; and whether any assurance in such terms or to such effect has been given by the War Office or any person speaking officially on its behalf to the hon. Member for Harrow?
The view of the War Office is that all extensions of railways giving further facilities for the movement of troops in time of war are desirable, and that this is particularly the case with regard to railway extensions effecting better communication between the North and the South of London.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared, speaking on behalf of the War Office, to make a statement to that effect, and amplify his statement when the Bill comes on, in view of the fact that Members of the House might be greatly influenced by the national importance of the scheme, apart from local interests?
No, Sir. It would be most unusual for the Secretary of State for War to make any such statement. This is our considered policy, which we have followed in all other cases, and no further information is necessary from me.
Does the right hon. Gentleman really say, in view of the great importance of this railway from the national point of view, that he will not endeavour to give his opinion to the House in regard to it?
I shall certainly go no further than I have gone in this reply to the question, and the evidence given by the Quartermaster-General before the Committee I think is all that is necessary.
Could not the same statement be made on behalf of any railway ever built in any country?
I can hardly add anything to the answer. All railways are good, and those north and south of London have peculiar advantages from the military point of view.
War Office Land (Roscommon)
asked the Secretary for War whether he will state the conditions under which the leasehold land, until recently held by the War Office, on the Roscommon side of the Shannon Bridge has been surrendered to the landlord; whether any consideration was given on either side; and whether he will state the price paid by the same landlord for the fee-simple land and the buildings thereon also held by the War Office in the same locality?
No consideration was given in connection with the surrender of leasehold property. There were no special conditions, but with a view to avoiding the legal and practical difficulties which would have arisen had the freehold property been sold to anyone but the proprietor of the leasehold property the surrender and the sale were dealt with as one transaction. It is not the practice to disclose the price paid in these cases.
Was there any consideration for the freehold property?
The whole thing was one transaction.
Army Film
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been called to the fact that the hiring charge for the use of the Army film for recruiting purposes is £10 per week; and whether, in view of the fact that in small country towns this charge cannot be borne entirely by the place of entertainment where the film is exhibited, and consequently falls largely upon the officers of local units, he will recommend a graduated scale of charges based upon the seating capacity of the hall or theatre available for the exhibition of the film?
This film is a private commercial enterprise, and I have no power to control the charges made for its exhibition.
Government of Ireland Bill
Commissioned Officers
asked the Secretary of State for War if any information is available as to the number of commissioned officers in the Army who would refuse to fight against the Protestant population of Ulster in the event of Imperial troops being employed by the Government to support the domination of an Irish Parliament; and what arrangements have been made to replace such officers?
I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I made to a question put to me by the hon. Member for the Ludlow Division of Shropshire on the 17th ultimo.
Has not information been received from some officers that they would not be inclined to be a party to shooting down men whose only crime was their loyalty?
No, Sir.
Proportional Representation
asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered if the prospects of the settlement of the Irish difficulty by consent would be materially increased if the Irish House of Commons were elected on methods of proportional representation, thus automatically securing to the Protestant minority throughout Ireland the full quota of members to which they may be entitled; and, if so, whether the Government will consider the substitution for the Senate of forty nominated Commoners sitting in the Irish House of Commons and entitled to intervene in all matters of administration, taxation, and legislation, a moiety retiring finally in five years and the remainder in ten years?
The question of proportional representation has already been discussed in and decided by the House, and I am not prepared to reopen it.
Federal Home Rule
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the preference expressed by the responsible leaders of the Opposition in both Houses for federal rather than merely dual Home Rule, he can see his way to submit to the House at an early date and promptly proceed with the Scottish Home Rule Bill, promised by the Secretary for Scotland; and whether, in such suggestions as he proposes to submit for the amendment of the Government of Ireland Bill, he will have regard to the desirability of some reasonable approach to uniformity in the powers to be delegated to the four national Legislatures which the Government contemplate?
As has already been stated, the Government do not see their way to introduce legislation of the kind referred to during the present Session. As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the speech which I made on 10th May, 1912, in which I expressed my views on this subject.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Government of England Bill will be introduced?
I cannot say at present.
Does the Prime Minister mean that the Government do not intend to introduce the Scottish Home Rule Bill this Session or this Parliament?
I said this Session.
Does that apply to this Parliament?
Oh, well, we will consider that afterwards.
Prime Minister's Statement
I desire to ask the Prime Minister if he can now inform us when he intends to make his proposals in regard to the Home Rule Bill?
I understand that satisfactory arrangements have now been agreed to which will ensure the completion of the necessary financial business by the end of the financial year. I will, therefore, make my promised statement in reference to the Government of Ireland Bill on the Motion for the Second Reading on Monday next. I understand it is the desire of the Opposition that the further consideration of the matter should be adjourned that night.
I think the course suggested is a proper one in the circumstances, and, in view of the reply of the right hon. Gentleman, I hope my hon. Friend will not think it necessary to move his Resolution to-night.
Questions
Finance Act, 1909–10
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what is the amount realised by the Exchequer by the extra duties imposed by Section 73 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, on conveyances and transfers on sale in each of the financial years ended the 31st March, 1911, 1912, and 1913?
The approximate amounts for the years in question are £430,000, £612,000, and £624,000, respectively.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what is the amount realised by the Exchequer by the extra duties imposed by Section 75 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, on leases and tacks in each of the financial years ended the 31st March, 1911, 1912, and 1913?
The approximate amounts for the years in question are £106,000, £109,000, and £118,000, respectively.
Liquor Taxation
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that Scotland contributes to Excise 22s. 10d. per head, and England and Wales only 16s. 9d. per head, he will consider the propriety, in his coming Budget, of so increasing the taxation upon intoxicants consumed in England and Wales as to secure therefrom a full proportionate equivalent to the £1,400,000 per annum overpaid by Scotland; and whether such additional taxation would enable him to abolish the duties on sugar and tea?
I am afraid I cannot adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.
Customs and Excise (Outdoor Staff)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the complaints of the outdoor staff of the Excise branch of the Customs and Excise Department at the manner in which the amalgamation of the services is being carried out; whether he has received statements on behalf of the men concerned to the effect that they regard the expectations on the faith of which they entered the service as being falsified by the present arrangements; and whether, in view of the pledge given when the assent of Parliament was obtained to the amalgamation, that no officer should suffer in position or prospects, he will institute an impartial inquiry into these grievances?
I beg to refer the hon. Member to my reply to a similar question addressed to me by the hon. Member for Nottingham on the 16th ultimo.
National Insurance Act
Insured Persons
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government will be prepared to give a Grant to those persons compul- sorily insured under the National Insurance Act whose benefits are reduced through no fault of their own owing to their societies showing a deficiency at the first triennial valuation?
I am afraid that I can add nothing to the reply given to the hon. Member on the 18th ultimo, and to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Wednesday last.
Women Outworkers
asked the Secretary to the Treasury what is the position of a woman outworker under the National Insurance Acts, employed on the unit system, if through insufficiency of work she is unable to keep her card fully stamped by her employer where the unit fixed is 13s. and the contributions of employer and outworker are 3d. each; and need the outworker only pay 3d. towards the arrears?
The benefit of Section 7 of the Act of 1913 will extend to outworkers whose contributions are paid on the unit system. In the case which my hon. Friend cites, the proportion of the weekly contribution payable by the outworker in these circumstances would be 3d.
Sanatorium Benefit
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if his attention has been called to the case of William Milne, of Potter How, Edinburgh, a consumptive deposit contributor, who was entitled to sanatorium benefit, as was admitted by the clerk to the Edinburgh Insurance Committee, but was on 25th February, 1913, refused institutional treatment by that committee on the ground that he had twice been in sanatoria and was not urgently ill, who finally had to seek admission as a consumptive to the Craiglockart poorhouse hospital, and who, whilst receiving inferior nourishment there, again made application to the Edinburgh Insurance Committee for institutional treatment under the National Insurance Act, but was again refused, the sanatorium benefit sub-committee deciding that he should continue in the poor-house hospital; and if he will say if William Milne died a pauper in December last, though at the time entitled to proper sanatorium treatment under the National Insurance Act?
My right hon. Friend is informed that the Scottish Insurance Commissioners are making full inquiry into the facts relating to this case, and I will communicate the result of this inquiry to the hon. Member.
Questions
Income Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state how many individuals paid Income Tax for the year 1912–13; how many of such persons are males and females, respectively; and how many of the male persons were assessed on an income exceeding £400 per annum?
Owing to the system of assessment and collection at the source no definite statistics are available as to the total number of, individual taxpayers or how this total is divided between the sexes. It is estimated, however, that about 1,150,000 persons paid Income Tax in 1912–13.
Police Court Fines
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what is the total sum received from fines imposed in police courts in England and Wales by magistrates in the last three years for which the figures are available; what proportion of these amounts have been, or are in course of being, paid by instalments; what proportion of these amounts were not paid in consequence of the defendant having accepted the alternative of imprisonment; whether there have been any cases in which a fine has been imposed without any alternative; and whether the fines have been paid in every case; and, if not, what are the total amounts for the three years of such fines not recovered?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has asked me to reply to this question. I am not in possession of these particulars, and they could not be obtained except by examination of the records of the different Courts of Summary Jurisdiction, involving an amount of labour which I could not ask the Clerks of the Courts to undertake. It would probably cost them many thousands of pounds to prepare the information.
Land Valuation
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether the Report of the Land Inquiry Committee so far as it relates to towns may be expected at an early date; and (2) whether the Report of the Land Inquiry Committee so far as it relates to Scotland may be expected at an early date?
I understand that the English Report referred to will be published at the end of this month, and the Scottish Report in the course of the next few weeks.
Will the English Report be published before the Report of the Departmental Committee on this question?
I really do not know when the Departmental Committee's Report will be published. I know it is being prepared.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that in certain cases the valuers employed by the Government for the valuation of land have valued it at less than the amounts which it has recently realised when sold by public auction; that in certain of such instances the officials have themselves paid the expenses incurred by the owner; and whether such instructions have been or will be given as will prevent such action in future?
The Valuation Office are unable to identify any case of an official having acted in the manner referred to in the question.
May I ask—if the officials themselves have not paid—has the State paid some of these expenses where the valuation has been wrong?
Fiars Prices
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he intends this Session to give legislative effect to the recommendations of the Departmental Committee with reference to fiars prices?
I hope to introduce a Bill upon this subject if I can arrange an agreed Bill.
Can the right hon. Gentleman see his way to introduce a Hill this Session in order to permit of discussion?
I hope it will not be very late.
Sea Fisheries Act, 1889
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the box used in the purchase of herrings in Loch Fyne is the legal quarter-cran box, in accordance with the Sea Fisheries Act, 1889; and, if not, will he say why the Fishery Board for Scotland does not enforce the law?
The box generally used for the purchase of herrings in Loch Fyne is the "Glasgow" box, which contains more than a quarter-cran box. The "Glasgow" box was introduced by the fishermen themselves and has been in general use for a considerable number of years, and its capacity is well known to all interested. No complaints have been received by the Board in recent years regarding the use of the box. I may add that the question was exhaustively considered by a Committee of the Board in 1902, and their Report (1902, Cd. 1674) states the position fully, and includes an explanation as to why the strict enforcement of the law was considered inexpedient.
Scottish Land Court and Board of Agriculture
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will state when the Annual Reports of the Scottish Land Court and Board of Agriculture will be presented to Parliament?
I am unable to name a specific date, but both these Reports are now in course of preparation, and I hope that they will be issued next month.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the Land Court Report is of special importance, and that we ought to have it before the morning of the day on which it comes up for discussion?
Small Holdings
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he can say upon what grounds the Board of Agriculture sanction walls half a brick or 4½ inches thick as suitable for the dwelling-house upon a small holding in Scotland; and whether the Board guarantees the safety and health of the inhabitants in such cases?
I am not aware of any case to which the Noble Lord's description would accurately apply.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that I am inaccurate in the particulars I have given, and may I ask him if the specifications were not published by the Board of Agriculture?
The inaccuracy was much more extensive.
asked what is the number of small holdings that have been left vacant or derelict by promoting the occupants to new small holdings; and what is the number of persons, including families, who have been removed or lost their situations in order to make room for new-comers?
I am not aware of any such cases of derelict small holdings; nor have I information enabling me to reply to the second part of the question.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the fact that the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, has been in operation for two years, and that during that time the claims of only 160 applicants for holdings and of 99 applicants for enlargements have been satisfied, he can say when the Board of Agriculture for Scotland expects to satisfy the claims of the remainder of the 8,000 applicants not yet dealt with?
I can only say that I hope progress in the future will be more rapid.
If the figure 166 is correct, how was the hon. Member for East Perth (Mr. W. Young) able to have information which the right hon. Gentleman could not give me yesterday; and may I ask if the second figure 99 is not 35 per cent. wrong on the right hon. Gentleman's own showing?
I must ask notice of that question.
asked the exact amount of the funds at the disposal of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland between the date when the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, came into operation and 31st December, 1913; and the total sum spent by the Board in its various operations during that period?
The total of the sums paid into the Agriculture (Scotland) Fund between 1st April, 1912, and 31st December, 1913, was £516,835, and the total expenditure from the fund for the same period was £112,533, but, of course, there is in addition a considerable sum earmarked for the settlements which have been established or sanctioned.
asked how much has actually been spent by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, irrespective of questions of compensation, etc., yet to be settled, since the date when the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, came into force till 31st December, 1913, or to date, on creation of new holdings, enlargement of existing holdings, and development of afforestation, respectively?
It is impossible to give an answer which will not be misleading if the question of compensation is excluded. The principal expenditure connected with afforestation has been in relation to the work of the Advisory Committee and their technical advisers in ascertaining what would be a suitable demonstration area.
asked whether or not shortage of funds is one of the main causes of the delay in establishing small holdings in Scotland under the existing Act?
Shortage of funds is not at present causing delay in the establishment of small holdings.
asked whether applications have been received by the Board of Agriculture for small holdings in a deer forest in the Kintail district of Ross-shire; whether a sub-commissioner has visited the district and prepared a scheme; and whether that scheme has been considered; and, if so, with what result?
The reply to the first and second parts of this question is in the affirmative. Negotiations are in progress with the estate.
When are these negotiations likely to be finished?
This is a question which does not concern the Board of Agriculture alone.
asked whether applications have been received by the Board of Agriculture for small holdings upon Invercharron Mains, Ross-shire; whether these applications have been considered; whether a sub-commissioner has examined the farm and prepared a scheme; whether the applications are likely to be granted; and, if not, what are the reasons for not granting the applications of men who are in every way suitable?
The reply to the first three parts of the question is in the affirmative, to the fourth in the negative so far as this farm is concerned, but the applicants will be considered in connection with other schemes. It is uncertain whether Invercharron Mains is available in terms of the Act, but apart from this, it is not a suitable subject.
Estimates (Navy and Army)
asked the Prime Minister if he can now say whether, before the Naval or Military Estimates for the next financial year are considered by the House, he will give time for the discussion of the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Falkirk Burghs?
I fear that, owing to the rearrangement of financial business, it will be impossible to give a day for the discussion of this Motion before the Estimates.
Agricultural Organisation Society
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the conditions recently laid down by the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury with reference to the Grants of £9,000 to the Agricultural Organisation Society in aid of its work during the financial year 1913–14; and whether, having regard to the undertaking given on behalf of the Government by the then Solicitor-General on 9th October, 1909 in the House of Commons, that Grants to promote the organisation of co-operation should not be applied to form a co-operative society for buying or selling, but only to encourage combination among farmers for purposes of securing better transit and marketing facilities for their produce, he will direct the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury to revise the conditions attaching to the Grants in accordance with this undertaking and lay them upon the Table of the House at an early date, or, in the alternative, will discontinue the Grants at the expiration of the present financial year?
The matter shall receive further consideration. Perhaps the hon. Member will renew his question next week.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this society confines its activities entirely to propagandist work?
No, Sir, I am not aware.
National Defence (Food Supply)
asked the Prime Minister if he realises that, whereas during the previous ten years the arable area of the United Kingdom shrank by a yearly average of 100,000 acres, the shrinkage last year was no less than 277,000 acres, and that the small area under wheat cultivation is rapidly decreasing; whether the Committee of National Defence have considered, in the light of these facts, the increasing gravity of the problem of food supply in time of war; and when it is proposed to take practical steps to solve the problem?
The Committee of Imperial Defence has, for the last four years, been examining various aspects of the complicated question of supplies in war. On the recommendation of the Committee, various arrangements have been made by the Government in regard to this question, and others are still under consideration.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a Bill has been introduced called the Compulsory Land Cultivation Bill?
I have not noticed it.
Cathcart School
asked whether the Cathcart School Board, in applying for a loan to build the Cathcart school, informed the Scottish Education Department of the stipulations they had made with Sir John Stirling Maxwell that, in return for the payment of £3,270 17s., they were to secure not only the site of the school but the reservation as an open space of about one and a quarter acres and an expenditure by the vendor of a large sum in the construction of roads and fences, plantation, and the maintenance of the river bank; and if the Scottish Education Department made any comment on the terms obtained by the school board?
The reply to both parts of the question is in the negative.
Are we to understand that the Education Department made no objection to the price which the school board was paying, although they thought they were getting much less for their money than they actually did?
I do not think the hon. Member is justified in saying that they thought they were getting less for their money than they actually did. It is no business of ours to go into the details of arbitration agreements. We have simply to sanction the loan. These particulars were not put before us.
Is it the practice of the Education Department to sanction loans when they think the price is excessive?
No, I do not think that is so.
Then we may take it they did not think the price was excessive?
Land Settlements (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland the names of the six landowners with whom negotiations were conducted in the six schemes for land settlement in Scotland which the Board of Agriculture for Scotland has abandoned as impracticable, the county or counties in which the lands are situated, and the acreage in each case; and the reason in each case why the Board of Agriculture found it necessary to abandon the scheme?
No, Sir. I do not think that it is desirable to give names and particulars of such cases, the more so as it would probably prejudice the Board in future operations.
Will not the right hon. Gentleman state some of the reasons why these schemes were abandond?
I do not think there would be any advantage in doing so.
Afforestation (Scotland)
asked what developments have taken place in afforestation since the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, came into force?
The Departmental Committee upon Scottish Forestry reported in December, 1911 that a demonstration area and forest school should be acquired by the State, and I would refer the hon. Member to my recent replies to the hon. Member for Bridgeton, Glasgow, on this subject. The Board of Agriculture for Scotland await the decision of the Development Commissioners with reference to the Board's application for a Grant for the employment of advisory and research officers. District correspondents are about to be appointed by the Board. The Development Commissioners agreed to make advances for the afforestation of catchment areas belonging to public authorities, and one application of this kind has been approved by the Board.
Parliamentary Registers, Glasgow
asked whether the assessor of Glasgow, in making up the list of persons entitled to vote for the year 1913–14 in so much of the city of Glasgow as lies in the Parliamentary Divisions of North-East Lanark, North-West Lanark, Dumbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, and West Renfrewshire, disregarded the boundaries of the polling districts fixed by the sheriffs of these counties; whether the registers printed are therefore not in conformity with the provisions of the Statutes governing Parliamentary elections in counties; and, if so, what steps are being taken to have the registers put in proper form?
I am informed that a question of the nature mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member has arisen as regards the form of the register of Parliamentary voters for portions of the counties of Lanark and Renfrew now included within the boundaries of the city of Glasgow, but that Dumbartonshire is not similarly affected. The determination of the question rests with the sheriffs of the respective counties, who recently held a joint hearing of the parties interested. The orders of the sheriffs were issued yesterday, and it is understood that the necessary corrections in the form of the register will be made forthwith.
Experiments upon Living Animals
asked the Lord Advocate whether any action has been taken by the Procurator Fiscal of Edinburgh with regard to the Irish terrier belonging to Mr. Donald Morrison, of Edinburgh, which was lost in December, 1913, and which returned to his master some six weeks later, limping and with a scar stretching from the paw to the first joint, and wearing a new collar marked "Surgical Department"?
Inquiry into the circumstances referred to by the hon. and gallant Member was made by the Procurator Fiscal, and elicited the following facts: (1) That an experiment was performed on the dog in virtue of a licence under the Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876; (2) that the dog was purchased for the purpose of the experiment from an individual bonâ-fide believed to be the owner; and (3) that no evidence was obtained which would justify the institution of proceedings against anybody for theft of the dog.
May I ask if the officials in the laboratory admit that they purchased the dog from a man named Collins, and if so, was Collins able to give a satisfactory explanation of his ownership of that dog?
I am informed that full inquiry was made by the Procurator Fiscal, and the result of that inquiry was that there was no justification for prosecution against Collins either for theft or reset.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that Collins was up in court for dog stealing, and was fined £5 only last year?
I cannot answer that question without notice.
Mussel Fishing
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that a draft Order for the improvement, maintenance, and regulation of a mussel fishery in Cardigan Bay was received by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries from the Lancashire and Western Sea Fisheries Joint Committee on or about the 29th November last; whether the Board have considered this Order; and whether, in view of the distress existing at Barmouth and Portmadoc on account of the total suspension of mussel fishing, he will give instructions for a public inquiry to be held locally at an early date on the questions raised by this draft Order?
The answer to each part of the question is in the affirmative.
Poultry
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will state what is the amount of poultry that the advisers of the Board consider can be kept on extensive lines upon one acre of land; and whether they recommend the extensive or intensive system?
The answer to both parts of the question depends upon the skill and experience of the poultry-keeper and many other circumstances. I will gladly send the Noble Lord copies of the leaflets issued by the Board on the subject.
Will the right hon. Gentleman draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the fact that they have to pay Undeveloped Land Duty?
Agricultural Statistics, 1912
asked why there was so much delay in issuing Part V. of the Agricultural Statistics for 1912; and why it is even now not yet published, seeing that it was presented to this House on the 16th February?
There has been no delay on the part of the Board of issuing Part V. of the Agricultural Statistics for 1912. This Part, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, consists solely of statistics of the British Empire and foreign countries, and even now in many cases the complete figures are not yet available. I have ascertained from the Stationery Office that copies will be obtainable this evening, or at the latest to-morrow morning.
Foot-and-Mouth Disease
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in view of the inability of the Board and its veterinary advisers to trace the origin of outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in the absence of any proof of contact with similarly affected animals, and of the impression that such outbreaks are caused by contact with or the consumption of packing material or of feeding stuffs imported from a foreign country where the disease is prevalent, he will consider the advisability, seeing that the bacillus of the disease is ultra-microscopic and its presence unascertainable by bacteriological examination, of causing such articles, if found upon the premises, to be fed by way of experiment to sound animals, carefully isolated for the purpose, and thus, by tracing the disease to its source, put a stop to the unsettling anxiety and suspicion which prevail on the occasion of all such outbreaks owing to ignorance of their origin?
As I have explained to the hon. Gentleman in answer to many similar questions in the past, such experiments as he suggests would involve a risk which in the opinion of the Board, of agriculturists in general, and of the Departmental Committee, of which he was himself a Member, ought not to be incurred. Moreover, as was pointed out very clearly in the evidence given before the Committee, the results of the experiments would be inconclusive, and would not therefore produce the effect which the hon. Gentleman desires.
May I ask, failing such experiments, what steps the Board take to endeavour to trace these outbreaks to their origin?
We adopt all the usual steps, taking advantage of all the evidence brought before us. I appointed a Departmental Committee a year or two ago to trace and inquire; into the origin of outbreaks as far as they could.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether at the time of or shortly prior to the recent outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease at Birkenhead any fodder imported from outside the United Kingdom was being used in the lairages at Birkenhead; and, if such fodder was not then being used, will he say from what part or parts of the United Kingdom the fodder then in use at the Birkenhead lairages had come?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave yesterday to a similar question addressed to me by the hon. Member for the Richmond Division of Yorkshire (Mr. Orde-Powlett).
Federated Malay States (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the increase of the liquor traffic in British Malaya and to the fact that the quantity of beer imported into the Federated Malay States rose from 384,800 gallons in 1909 to 3,119,512 in 1912; whether there axe any restrictions on the sale of this liquor; whether he is aware that the planters' associations and missionary bodies have criticised the present excise administration; and whether steps will be taken to suppress the irregularities complained of and to reduce the facilities which now exist for the sale of toddy and other intoxicating liquors?
I am aware that the quantity of malt liquors imported into and manufactured in the Federated Malay States has risen since 1909 to the figures quoted by my hon. Friend. The sale of malt liquor is subject to the restrictions imposed by the Excise Enactments of 1908 and 1909. Representations have been made to the Government by the planters' association on the sale of intoxicating liquors, and the whole question is receiving the consideration of the Federated Malay States Government.
May I ask whether coincident with the increase in the importation of such liquors, there is a decrease in the consumption of spirits and wine?
I think it is likely, but I would like to have notice of the question.
Ceylon (Excise Advisory Committees)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the resolution of the South Ceylon District Synod of the Wesleyan Methodist Church asking for the enlargement of the powers of the Excise Advisory Committees of Ceylon so as to include the question of the sites of taverns, and also for an increase of the unofficial element on the advisory committees; and whether he is in a position to give a favourable answer to these requests?
The resolution in question has only reached me through the hon. Member. It is already open to members of the advisory committees to submit advice with regard to the sites of proposed taverns if they desire to do so. As regards the constitution of the advisory committees I would refer to the answer returned to a question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for West Denbighshire on the 6th of May last.
South Africa Chartered Company
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been directed to a speech made by Sir Starr Jameson, C.B., the president of the South Africa Chartered Company, at Salisbury, Rhodesia, in the presence of the Resident Commissioner, representing the Colonial Office in Rhodesia, in which he stated the Imperial Government would renew the Charter next October, but any renewal must be on the terms of the present Charter; what authority, if any, had Sir Starr Jameson for this statement; and what pledge, if any, has been given to him by the Government for a renewal of the Charter on its present terms or at all; and whether, having regard to the public interests involved, the question of the renewal of the Charter and the terms of that renewal will not be decided till the proposed settlement has been submitted to the consideration of the House of Commons?
I have seen a report of the speech delivered at Salisbury by Sir S. Jameson on 22nd December, in which he stated that the Charter is not coming to an end in 1914, but must be continued on the conditions which it contains. Article 33 of the Charter, to which he was referring, gives the Government powers at certain dates to add to, alter or repeal any of the provisions of the Charter, or to enact other provisions in substitution for, or in addition to, any of its provisions relating to administrative and public matters. I am not prepared at present to make any statement with regard to any action which His Majesty's Government may consider desirable under Article 33.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Charter was obtained behind the back of Parliament and without Parliamentary knowledge?
What notice do the Government mean to give, if any, to the Chartered Company if they propose to make any alteration in the terms of the Charter?
There is a date fixed in the Charter by which the alterations must be made.
Will a full opportunity be given to Parliament to discuss the matter before any decision is arrived at by the Government?
That is not for me to say.
May we take it, then, that Sir Starr Jameson had no right whatever to state what the Government would or would not do?
Royal Navy
"Royal Sovereign" Class (Construction)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will now state the official figures of the dimensions, armament and speed of the "Royal Sovereign" battleship class?
I am advised that it would be most undesirable to make public these details at this stage of the ship's construction, and contrary to former practice.
Armour-Plate Contracts
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has considered paragraph 18 of the Report of the Estimates Committee, calling attention to the limited competition for armour-plate contracts and its effect on prices; and whether he will throw open the opportunity to tender to other firms in addition to the five now on the list?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part that the Admiralty has constantly had this matter under review and is always willing to consider any reasonable possibility that presents itself of wider competition that would be consistent with compliance with all necessary requirements of quality and delivery. The whole subject was specially explained confidentially by the Third Sea Lord to the Estimates Committee, of which my right hon. Friend was a Member.
Salvage Operations
asked (1) whether yard craft No. 96 has been taken over officially at Sheerness by the Salvage Department of the Admiralty; how long she has been at Sheerness; and what was her cost of construction; and (2) whether yard craft No. 96 was designed for the purpose of being used to raise submarines of the "C" Class and others of greater weight; whether she has satisfactorily answered any lifting tests; and, if so, why she has not been employed in any of the salvage operations in connection with submarine disasters?
Yard craft No. 96, built at a cost of about £54,000, has been officially taken over by the Dockyard officers at Sheerness, at which port she has been since September, 1912. She was designed for the purpose of being used to raise submarines of the "C" Class and others, and tests have been applied with satisfactory results. She has not, however, actually been employed in connection with any submarine accident since her delivery, as another vessel, also specially fitted for work of this description, and more suitable for raising submarines of the "A," "B," and "C" Classes, has been available.
Would it be incorrect to say that, on her lifting test, she was capable only of raising forty tons?
Her power of raising dead-weight is many times that.
Has she proved herself able to do it?
Yes. Tests have been applied with satisfactory results.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give us the deadweight which this vessel can raise?
I do not know that would be in the public interest, but she is capable of raising a weight considerably beyond that of a submarine.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the First Lord stated not very long ago the weight that this vessel could raise? That being so, why is the right hon. Gentleman now unable to give me the figures for which I ask?
I am not unable to do so, but I do not think it is desirable. I will look into the matter.
Is there any objection in the public interest to stating the weight that a craft of this description can raise?
I think my right hon. Friend was right in refusing to give the weight in reply to a Supplementary question if he had not fully considered the matter.
Fourth Destroyer Flotilla
asked how many days the Fourth Destroyer Flotilla stationed at Harwich has spent at sea since the 1st December last?
During the year 1913 the Fourth Destroyer Flotilla was at sea on 120 days. Figures confined to the winter months would be misleading to the House.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question on the Paper?
Figures confined to the winter months would be misleading.
Is it not a fact that this flotilla has been confined to Harwich Harbour for the last three months because it has not oil with which to go to sea?
No; that is not a fact.
Reserve Fleet Mobilisation
asked whether a test mobilisation of the Reserve Fleet will take place next July; and, if so, whether a mobilisation announced so long beforehand corresponds with the conditions of mobilisation for active service?
Yes, Sir. A peace mobilisation differs from a war mobilisation in many respects. On the whole, a sudden war mobilisation would be the easier, but there is no doubt that the proposed test will be of the highest interest and value.
Am I to understand that the mobilisation next July is to be merely an exercise and not a test?
I hope that it will be in the nature of both—an instructive exercise and a test.
Oil Fuel
asked if any substantial progress has been made in the provision of oil fuel for the Fleet; and whether British ships and torpedo craft burning oil are not being exercised for want of fuel?
Yes, Sir. Very substantial progress has been made in the provision of oil fuel for the Fleet, and there is no truth in the statement contained in the last part of the question.
Is it true that torpedo flotillas are not now being exercised awing to a desire to economise oil fuel?
I will take an opportunity, in view of some of the questions which have been asked, of going fully into the subject of how the exercises of our torpedo staff compare with those which prevail in other countries.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many ships engaged in the navalmanœuvres last year were engined for oil fuel; what was the average total consumption of such vessels per day when engaged in the manœuvres; what is the present number of ships in commission burning oil fuel; and what is the amount of oil fuel at present in the possession of the Admiralty?
The answer to the first and third parts of the question can be ascertained from the answer given to the Noble Lord the Member for Portsmouth on the 18th of last month. The answer to the second and fourth parts of the question are confidential.
Is the House to understand that many of the destroyers have not been laid up, or temporarily laid up, in consequence of a shortage of oil fuel?
I cannot see that that question bears any relation to the question that the hon. Member has put on the Paper.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask your ruling as to whether or not my supplementary question was relevant to the question I placed on the Paper?
I would like to see the supplementary question before answering.
White Star Line
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will state the exact status of the ships of the White Star Line armed by the Admiralty; and whether he can now give to the House the authoritative information promised on the subject?
The ships of the White Star Line are British ships as defined in the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and their status, whether defensively armed or not, does not differ from that of other British ships; but under the Agreement of 1st August, 1903, their British character cannot be altered without the prior consent of the Admiralty and the Board of Trade, whereas British ships generally are not subject to any such stipulation.
asked a further question, which was inaudible in the Gallery.
I have shown that, so far as the legal status of this company is concerned, these ships are better adapted for the purpose in question than any other vessels.
Is it any good the ships being adapted if we cannot get them?
Questions
New Hebrides (Labour)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that it was recently disclosed in evidence in open Court in the New Hebrides that a plantation had changed hands, the assets including implements, cattle and thirty-three labourers, the labourers being valued at £50 each; and whether he will say if a total of £1,650 was actually paid for these thirty-three men and boys?
I am aware that in a case recently before the Joint Court it was stated that two French citizens, to whom thirty-three native labourers had been engaged under indentures for one year, transferred an estate to an Australian company, a sum of £l,650 being included in the purchase price in respect of labour; and that the Joint Court held, after the completion of the transfer, that these indentures had not ceased to preserve their legal force.
How does this transaction differ from slavery? And is it not in direct violation of Article 43 of the Convention, which prohibits the transfer of contracts unless freely accepted by the labourer and authorised by the Resident Commissioner?
I suppose it cannot be in violation of the Article, because it was a decision of the Joint Committee.
Shortage of Houses
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the shortage of houses, especi- ally in rural areas, has in many cases been aggravated by the fact that the Post Office makes no provision for housing its employés; and whether he will cause an inquiry to be made with a view to providing such accommodation in future?
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the dearth of cottages in rural districts, he will cause inquiry to be made as to the-conditions of housing of Post Office employés in rural areas?
The question of providing houses for postmen in rural areas recently formed the subject of inquiry and consideration by my right hon. Friend's predecessor, who was satisfied that the difficulties which would attend the provision of houses by the Post Office outweigh the drawbacks which arise from the existing system, under which no official provision is made in this respect. My right hon. Friend sees no reason to dissent from his conclusion.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether it is not the fact that many private employers make provision for their employés in the matter of housing, and ought not the Post Office to act up to the standard of the best employers?
It will readily be realised that as the Post Office deals with some 230,000 employés, it would be almost impossible to do what the hon. Gentleman, suggests. Moreover, we find that the only cases of difficulty of the kind that we have to contend against are about one-and-twenty out of the 230,000. We provide successfully for these by drafting unmarried men into these particular posts, and giving them special privileges.
I beg to give notice that I will call attention to the matter on the first possible occasion.
Shops Act, 1912 (Barnsley Tobacconists)
asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that the Barnsley Tobacconists Closing Order (Shops Act, 1912) was confirmed by him on 25th July, 1913, and laid upon the Table of this House on or about 5th August, 1913, at which date the Government had obtained the whole time of the House; if he is aware that Section 6 of the Shops Act, 1912, provides that within 40 working days upon which the House sits an Address may be made by either House of Parliament that an Order under the Shops Act may be annulled; if he is aware that the Order as above has not been laid this Session; if the Home Secretary is advised that the Act has been properly complied with in the case of the Barnsley Tobacconists Closing Order; and, if not, will he lay the Order again this Session in order to comply with the Act?
The circumstances are as stated in the question. I am advised that the Act has been complied with. I should be glad to lay the Order again on the Table if the effect of my doing so would be to renew the opportunity to the House which was curtailed last Session by the prorogation, and I will consult the authorities of the House on this subject.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that owing to the Order being made so late in the Session there was no opportunity for discussion?
Yes; I said that the circumstances are as stated in the question.
Motor Omnibuses (Metropolitan Area)
asked the Home Secretary if he is aware or will take steps to ascertain whether the drivers of motor omnibuses in the Metropolitan area are fined or penalised in any way for not keeping time on their journeys through the streets of London; whether the fear of this penalty results in these vehicles often being driven at excessive speed and to the danger of the public; and whether he can see his way to ensure that no motor omnibus belonging to an individual or corporation which imposes such penalties shall be licensed to ply for hire in London?
I am informed by the Commissioner of Police that, so far as he is aware, it is not the practice to fine or otherwise to penalise drivers who have been delayed on a journey, unless it appears conclusively that they are late through their own default. On the other hand, it is the rule to penalise a driver who arrives at his destination in advance of the time prescribed. The police have no reason to believe that the system of payment is in itself a source of danger, or that it is a cause of excessive speed.
Central Welsh Board
asked the President of the Local Government Board, in view of the fact that it is alleged that irregularities have been discovered in the accounts of the Central Welsh Board, if he will state whether such board is the subject of audit by the Local Government Board; whether any audits of the board's accounts have been held; and whether any irregularities were discovered?
The accounts of the Central Welsh Board for the years ended the 31st March, 1912, and 31st March, 1913, have been audited by a district auditor appointed by the Local Government Board. Previous accounts were audited by a firm of chartered accountants. The district auditor did not discover any defalcations, though he pointed out some desirable improvements in the methods of accounting. A preliminary audit of the current year's accounts has, however, revealed serious irregularities. The formal audit, as required by Statute, cannot be held until the close of the financial year, and will take place at the earliest practicable date.
Clerkenwell Police Court (Conviction of Mrs. Sarah Savage)
I desire to repeat the question I put yesterday to the Home Secretary, of which I have given private notice, and which is printed in to-day's OFFICIAL REPORT.
"Mr. Keir Hardie: I beg to ask the Home Secretary a question, of which I have given private notice, namely: Whether his attention had been drawn to the sentence of six months passed upon Mrs. Sarah Savageat Clerkenwell police count the other day, whether it came out in the course of the trial, and has since been continued by independent investigators, that Mrs. Savage is a sober, hard-working, decent woman, and that, her reason for locking up her children was not due to cruelty, but only meant to preserve them from the perils of the streets, physical and moral, during their mother's absence from work; and whether under all the circumstances of the case he is prepared to recommend the remission of the remainder of the sentence?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd March, 1914, col. 44.]
My hon. Friend is mistaken in supposing that he gave me private notice yesterday. Neither then nor since have I heard from him, nor has he repeated his private notice.
I received yesterday afternoon from one of the officials of the Home Office an acknowledgment in the name of the Home Secretary of the receipt of my question of yesterday. I think, therefore, I am entitled to some explanation of the extraordinary answer of the right hon. Gentleman.
Yes, Sir, my hon. Friend is certainly entitled to some explanation. As soon as I am acquainted with the facts I shall be most happy to give them to him. I inquired yesterday at the Home Office, and was told that no such letter had been received from my hon. Friend. I inquired again yesterday evening and received the same answer.
Can the right hon. Gentleman, as a matter of fact, not give an answer to the question put by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Keir Hardie)? He heard it yesterday, and possibly may consider it worthy of inquiry. It is a matter of some importance.
Yes, Sir, we are inquiring now into the facts of the case, but so far we have been unable to receive any conclusive account as to what were the circumstances of the conviction of Mrs. Savage.
Mexico (Death of Mr. Benton)
May I ask the Foreign Secretary if he has any information regarding the position in Mexico?
I must ask the leave of the House to make a somewhat more extended statement than can properly be compressed within the limits of an answer to a question. All the efforts that have been made hitherto have failed to secure an investigation of the facts respecting the death of Mr. Benton. The persistent difficulties put in the way of investigation create the strongest presumption of a desire and an intention to conceal the truth on the part of those in Mexico who are responsible for what has happened. Communications with the Government of the United States are still proceeding, but I would repeat what I said last week: that these communications do not imply that the Government of the United States have any responsibility for what has taken place, by which I mean, of course, the death of Mr. Benton. While, therefore, we shall welcome any action that they are prepared to take to secure justice, we have no title to demand as of right that they should themselves resort to the use of force. One can demand that another Government should go to all lengths to secure reparation for a crime only when one holds that Government in some way responsible for the commission of the crime. So far, the Government of the United States have shown at least as much interest in the death of a British subject as they have in the case of outrages on American citizens, for I understand that several Americans have been killed in Mexico, and they have shown every desire to use their influence to secure protection for British subjects in territory controlled by those who are described as Constitutionalists.
I would, therefore, sum up the situation by saying that, if the Government of the United States think it proper to take further steps, either on behalf of their own, subjects or of a British subject, we will gladly await the result; but, if for reasons of their own they do not think it desirable to take such steps, we must, of course, reserve to ourselves the right to secure reparation whenever there is opportunity. Our general policy towards Mexico and Central and South American Republics is confined to commercial interests, which we keep within non-political limits. As a rule, therefore, all questions that arise between those Republics and ourselves are settled by diplomatic means or can be referred to arbitration. But the violent death of a British subject and the refusal by those responsible in Mexico to allow the circumstances to be investigated make it incumbent upon us to do what we can on our own behalf, assuming that the Government of the United States desire not themselves to take any responsibility for intervention. It has been urged upon me that we should take immediate action; without, however, giving me any suggestion or indication of what action we can take at the moment. I must therefore repeat what I said last week: That there is nothing we can do effectively under present conditions. The Government in Mexico City have no control over the territory where the death of Mr. Benton took place, nor over those who were responsible for his death. We cannot, therefore, under present circumstances, secure reparation through that Government. We have no intention of engaging in what would be on our part a fantastic attempt such as the sending of a force, which, to be effective, would have to be a very large force, into any part of Mexico. Under ordinary circumstances, we might have taken action at a port, or by way of blockade. Under present conditions, if we took such action and it had any effect, it could only result in giving assistance to the contending party in the north of Mexico. To take action that would positively help those from whom we demand reparation, simply for the sake of appearing to do something, would be worse than futile. But we do not intend to let the matter rest, and, as soon as by any change of circumstances it is in our power to carry the matter further, we shall take whatever steps may be practicable.
Orders of the Day
New Member Sworn
George Welsh Currie, esquire, for the Leith District of Burghs.
Notices of Motion
National and Imperial Defence
To call attention upon this day two weeks to the question of National and Imperial Defence, and to move a Resolution. —[ Mr. Butcher. ]
Prize Money (Royal Navy)
To call attention upon this day two weeks to Prize Money in the Navy, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. H. Nuttall. ]
National Insurance Act
On this day two weeks to call attention to the working of the National Insurance Act, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Denison-pender. ]
Bills Presented
Soldiers' Parliamentary Franchise Bill
"To facilitate the acquisition and exercise of the Parliamentary Franchise by soldiers who, in the course of their military duty or service, are removed from one constituency to another." Presented by Mr. BUTCHER; supported by Viscount Helmsley, Mr. Worthington-Evans, Viscount Castlereagh, Mr. Charles Bathurst, Colonel Burn, and Major Morrison-Bell; to be read a second time upon Friday, 17th April, and to be printed. [Bill 85.]
Shops Act (1912) Amendment Bill
"To amend the Shops Act, 1912, in respect of the closing of barbers' shops on Sundays in Wales and Monmouthshire." Presented by Mr. KEIR, HARDIE; supported by Mr. Brace, Mr. Richards, and Mr. John Williams; to be read a second time upon Friday, 13th March, and to be printed. [Bill 86.]
Parliamentary Elections (Alternative Vote) Bill
"To amend the law relating to Parliamentary Elections." Presented by Mr. WILES; supported by Mr. Alden, Mr. Radford, Sir Charles Nicholson, Mr. Gordon Harvey, Sir William Howell Davies, Mr. Roch, Mr. Yeo, Mr. Arthur Henderson, and Mr. Eugene Wason; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 87.]
Nurses' Registration
I beg leave to move, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to regulate the qualifications of trained nurses, and to provide for their registration."
4.0 P.M.
This Bill, without compulsion, without cost to the State, without the creation of new State officials, sets up a nursing council. That nursing council is charged with the duty of prescribing a curriculum, of prescribing also a minimum standard of training, of prescribing that certificates shall be granted to those nurses who pass examinations prescribed by this council, and it provides also that a register of nurses who have passed the prescribed examination, and secured certificates, shall be kept for reference. It does not in the least interfere with nursing even as carried on at present. If this Bill becomes law any woman would be at liberty to practise nursing just as she practises it now; she could go to cases to which she is called whether she is trained or not, whether she is an imposter or not, and she could charge any fee she desires. The only thing she will not be able to do if she has not these qualifications is to claim that she has been trained at a hospital and is a qualified nurse. It is on all fours with the registration of medical men. Any man can practise as a doctor whether he is trained or not, but if he is not trained he cannot claim to have been trained as a medical man, to have gone through the ordinary curriculum, and to have secured a degree and registration. All we want to do is to place the nurses in the same category as the doctors in relation to a recognised register. The present state of the nursing profession is quite unsatisfactory; there is a great scarcity of nurses. Of 200 institutions circularised quite recently ninety-nine declared that they were short of nurses, and a large number also declared that the quality of the women applying to be trained was much lower than it used to be. Under the present system the sick are imposed upon. Women can wear uniform and pretend to have gone through some hospital training and claim the usual fees. This Bill does not prevent even that, but it does prevent these women claiming to have been fully trained in a hospital when they have not been trained. Not many years ago a negro kept a house in London, put women into it, supplied them with nurses' uniform and plied them out as nurses, although it was afterwards found to be nothing more than a place which was kept for immoral purposes. Not long ago there was a woman prosecuted for practising as a certificated nurse and falsely claiming to have been trained in the London Hospital. In this way the sick are imposed upon and exorbitantly charged, and in many cases they are injured in health on account of the false claims put forward by these impostors. Massage houses, private hospitals and quack hospitals now issue certificates. A nurse may go into any hospital for a few months and then go out and claim to have been trained. There is no minimum standard, and no way of protecting the sick from the impostures which are being carried on. In this matter the poor suffer the most, because the rich can afford to make many inquiries. The Insurance Act has made nurses more necessary than before. Greater claims are made upon them, and the establishment of sanatoria and the practice under the Insurance Act has shown that there is an immense shortage of nurses, especially amongst the poor. Then we have the abuse of the nursing uniform. Even prostitutes find it profitable to trade upon the fair name of nurses in order to prosecute their calling. There was a time when nurses boasted that if they were dressed in their uniform they could go to any slum in London with impunity and without suspicion, but they cannot do that now. I heard the other day the case of a nurse warning other nurses not to wear their uniforms at railway stations in London, and I have heard it stated that the police look into their faces with suspicion on station platforms. So great is the degradation that nurses are beginning to feel that they are likely to be disgraced by wearing a uniform of which they were once so proud. Who are the people opposing this measure? Simply those who have a vested interest in the money value of untrained and undertrained nurses. The head and front of this opposition is the London Hospital. I want to say one or two things about the London Hospital, because that is the only great hospital in Great Britain that actively opposes registration and exploits nurses for its own financial advantage.
That is a serious charge.
Yes, it is a very serious charge, and I will prove it. The London Hospital give a certificate to a nurse at the end of two years' training, when it is recognised by all the great hospitals that three years is a necessary curriculum, and that no nurse can be properly trained unless she has stayed for at least three years at a hospital. At some Scotch hospitals, four years is required, and all other great hospitals require three years. The London Hospital gives a certificate to nurses at the end of two years—
Is the hon. Member in order in introducing all these charges under the Ten Minutes' Rule?
The proper course in introducing a Bill is to state what the Clauses are, and not to make attacks upon institutions which have no representatives here to defend them. The hon. Member has only one minute more in which to explain his Bill.
Perhaps I am entitled to say that if a hospital gives only two years' training, and in the third year sends out nurses and pays them 11s. 6d. per week while they are earning two guineas per week, and then opposes a Bill which would make that impossible, I think I have a right to say that—
The hon. Member is now going back to the argument which I have just ruled out of order.
I want to say that a Select Committee has already reported in favour of the registration of nurses; that the general medical council is in its favour; that the British Medical Association supports it, and that all the societies of trained nurses are in favour of it. It has been recently declared by the right hon. and learned Member for the Walton Division (Mr. F. E. Smith) that if there is any wrong which women suffer, they can depend upon this House giving them redress. I now appeal to this House to make that statement good, and remove an injustice to the sick and an injustice to women by granting leave to introduce this Bill. This measure is for the protection of the sick and for the protection of women. The great training hospitals in our midst give a full curriculum, and give no certificates until three years' training has been fulfilled.
I appeal to the House not to accede to my hon. Friend's request—
May I ask whether it is necessary for an hon. Member who rises to oppose the Bill to divide the House?
The hon. Member has stated that he opposes this Bill, and he can divide the House upon it. If an hon. Member begins his speech by saying that he opposes a measure, I am bound to hear him.
The Noble Lord interrupted me almost before I had said a sentence.
Perhaps the hon. Member does not recollect an incident which occurred about a fortnight ago, when possibly he was not present. By reason of what occurred then, the Noble Lord has now applied to me in the way he has done.
I intended to make it clear that I was opposing this Bill, and I think I started in no undecided way. I appealed to the House not to accede to my hon. Friend's request, and I am not going to run away from my position; and if the Noble Lord will tell with me, I will certainly go to a Division. I will not discuss the references which have been made to the London Hospital, except to say that I think that that alone would entitle us to oppose this Bill as a mark of protest against the attack made upon that institution. I quite admit my hon. Friend has brought this Bill in with the best intention, but he overstated his case when he said that all the objection to this measure came from interested people. I ask my hon. Friends to support me in order to show my hon. Friend the Member for Stirlingshire (Dr. Chapple) that he has no right in introducing the Bill to make a sweeping statement like he has done, which has no foundation whatever. I should have thought that we needed much more inquiry before legislating upon this topic. The fact that this measure seems to have been conceived in a spirit of antagonism to a great institution which serves the poor in the East End of London shows that we require more time for reflection. We do not know what the Clauses of the Bill are or what its machinery is. If this Bill has been drafted in the same kind of spirit as the speech which has been made in intro- ducing it, I cannot conceive that it is likely to do any possible good. Naturally I am suspicious about any new legislation setting up a distinct profession when the standards are not agreed. In nursing there is no common standard—in fact, the standard varies in every part of the country, and particularly between England and Scotland.
I think my hon. Friend would have been well advised to have confined his Bill to Scotland, and also to have confined his remarks to Scotland. There is a great difference—and as far as I know the hon. Member has not touched upon it—between the nurses in Scotland and the nurses in England with regard to their organisation, aims, and desires upon this particular question. My hon. Friend is a Scottish Member, and this subject may have progressed more there than in this country. That is one reason why he should have confined this measure to Scotland, and then it could have been threshed out before the Scottish Grand Committee. The hon. Member has made out no case for the introduction of this Bill. The Insurance Act is no argument at all. I agree that the Insurance Act is bringing benefits in the way of medicines, and so on, to the poor which were beyond them before, and I should be glad if we could do something for the nurses to increase the dignity of their profession and give some opportunity for a recognition of those who are genuine nurses, but to base the claim for his Bill upon the cock-and-bull story of nurses being stirred up on railway stations by the police is absurd, and something which I never heard of. We heard the old argument about women dressed as nurses decoying poor girls away for immoral purposes, but when the charge was investigated a case could not be found. I do not believe that the stories about a nurse going to Harrod's Stores or Selfridge's have a word of truth in them. To give that as a reason for introducing this legislation simply shows the poverty of the case. Owing to the manner in which my hon. Friend made an unprovoked attack on a great nursing institution, I think we ought to mark our sense of disapproval by opposing this Bill in the Division Lobby.
Question put, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to regulate the qualifications of trained nurses, and to provide for their registration."
The House divided: Ayes, 311; Noes, 82.
Division No. 32.] AYES. [4.15 p.m. Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Falconer, James Low, Sir F. (Norwich) Acland, Francis Dyke Farrell, James Patrick Lyell, Charles Henry Adamson, William Fell, Arthur Lynch, A. A. Addison, Dr. Christopher Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Agnew, Sir George William Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Alden, Percy Ffrench, Peter Macdonald, John M. (Falkirk Burghs) Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Field, William McGhee, Richard Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Mackinder, Halford J. Armitage, Robert Fitzgibbon, John Macmaster, Donald Arnold, Sydney Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South). Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Flavin, Michael Joseph Macpherson, James Ian Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) France, G. A. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd M'Callum, Sir John M. Barnes, George N. Gill, A. H. M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) Baring, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs) Gladstone, W. G. C. M'Micking, Major Gilbert Barrie, H. T. Glanville, H. J. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Beale, Sir William Phipson Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Malcolm, Ian Beauchamp, Sir Edward Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Beck, Arthur Cecil Greene, Walter Raymond Manfield, Harry Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Greig, Colonel James William Marks, Sir George Croydon Bentham, George Jackson Griffith, Ellis Jones Mason, David M. (Coventry) Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Meagher, Michael Bird, Alfred Gulland, John William Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Black, Arthur W. Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix). Boland, John Plus Hackett, John Middlebrook, William Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith Haddock, George Bahr Middlemore, John Throgmorton Bowerman, Charles W. Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Millar, James Duncan Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Molloy, Michael Brace, William Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Molteno, Percy Alport Brady, Patrick Joseph Hardie, J. Keir Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Bryce, J. Annan Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Money, L. G. Chiozza Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Mooney, John J. Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Morgan, George Hay Byles, Sir William Pollard Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Morrell, Philip Carr-Gomm, H. W. Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Cator, John Hayden, John Patrick Morison, Hector Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Hazleton, Richard Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) Helme, Sir Norval Watson Muldoon, John Chancellor, H. G. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Murphy, Martin J. Clancy, John Joseph Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Hewart, Gordon Nannetti, Joseph Clough, William Hinds, John Neilson, Francis Clynes, John R. Holmes, Daniel Turner Neville, Reginald J. N. Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Hope, John Deans (Haddington) Newton, Harry Kottingham Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Nield, Herbert Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Nolan, Joseph Condon, Thomas Joseph Houston, Robert Paterson Norton, Captain Cecil W. Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hughes, Spencer Leigh Nuttall, Harry Cotton, William Francis Hunt, Rowland O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Courthope, George Loyd Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Cowan, W. H. Illingworth, Percy H. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) O'Doherty, Philip Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) O'Donnell, Thomas Craik, Sir Henry John, Edward Thomas O'Dowd, John Crooks, William Johnson, W. Ogden, Fred Crumley, Patrick Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Cullinan, John Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Currie, George W. Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe) O'Shee, James John Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Sullivan, Timothy Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Palmer, Godfrey Mark Dawes, James Arthur Jowett, F. W. Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Delany, William Joyce, Michael Parker, James (Halifax) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Kellaway, Frederick George Pearce, William (Limehouse) Devlin, Joseph Kelly, Edward Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Dewar, Sir J. A. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Kenyon, Barnet Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Dillon, John Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Pirie, Duncan V. Donelan, Captain A. Kilbride, Denis Pointer, Joseph Doughty, Sir George Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Duffy, William J. Lane-Fox, G. R. Pratt, J. W. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lardner, James C. R. Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Pringle, William M. R. Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Leach, Charles Radlord, George Heynes Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Lewisham, Viscount Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry Essex, Sir Richard Walter Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.) Rea, Rt Hon. Russell (South Shields) Faber, George D. (Clapham) Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Reddy, Michael Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Weston, Colonel J. W. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) Wheler, Granville C. H. Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Rendall, Atheistan Snowden, Philip White, Patrick (Meath, North) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Soames, Arthur Wellesley Whitehouse, John Howard Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Stanier, Beville Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Sutton, John E. Wiles, Thomas Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Swift, Rigby Williams, John (Glamorgan) Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Robinson, Sidney Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading) Roe, Sir Thomas Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Wing, Thomas Edward Rowlands, James Thorne, William (West Ham) Winterton, Earl Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Thynne, Lord Alexander Worthington-Evans, L. Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Sanders, Robert Arthur Verney, Sir Harry Yate, Colonel C. E. Sandys, G. J. Wardle, George J. Young, William (Perth, East) Scanlan, Thomas Waring, Walter Yoxall, Sir James Henry Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Dr,—Dr, Sheehy, David Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Chapple and Mr. Aneurin Williams. Shortt, Edward Webb, H.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Pollock, Ernest Murray Ashley, Wilfrid W. Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) Quitter, Sir William Eley C. Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington) Randles, Sir John S. Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Rawson, Colonel R. H. Barnston, Harry Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Rees, Sir J. D. Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Henry, Sir Charles Rothschild, Lionel de Blair, Reginald Hills, John Waller Salter, Arthur Clavell Bridgeman, William Clive Hodge, John Sanderson, Lancelot Bull, Sir William James Hogge, James Myles Sassoon, Sir Philip Burn, Colonel C. R. Holt, Richard Dunning Staveley-Hill, Henry Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Stewart, Gershom Cassel, Felix Jessel, Captain H. M. Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) Castlereagh, Viscount Joynson-Hicks, William Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Tryon, Captain George Clement Clyde, J. Avon Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) Valentia, Viscount Croft, Henry Page Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Walker, Colonel William Hall Denison-Pender, J. C. Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Denniss, E. R. B. Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Weigall, Capt. A. G. Duncannon, Viscount Lockwood. Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R. Wilkie, Alexander Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Lundon, Thomas Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud Gardner, Ernest Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. Wills, Sir Gilbert Gastrell, Major W. H. Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Wilson, Maj. Sir M. (Bethnal Green, S.W.) Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) Goulding, Edward Alfred Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Grant, J. A. Paget, Almeric Hugh TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. Gretton, John Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F. Booth and Mr. Higham. Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) Perkins, Walter F.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Dr. Chapple, Dr. Addison, Mr. Alden, Mr. Bryce, Mr. Duncan Millar, Mr. Scott Dickson, Mr. Remnant, Viscount Wolmer, Sir George Younger, Mr. Ramsay Macdonald, and Mr. Field. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Friday, 13th March, and to be printed. [Bill 88.]
Supply
Navy (Supplementary Estimate, 1913–14)
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Contract Work, Victualling and Clothing for Tub Navy, Etc
Motion made [ 2nd March ], and Question again proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,500,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1914, for additional Expenditure on the following Navy Services, namely:—
£ Vote 2. Victualling and Clothing for the Navy 88,000 Vote 8. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc. Section I. Personnel 88,000 Section II. Matériel 733,000 Section III. Contract Work 1,125,000 Vote 9. Naval Armaments 320,000 Vote 10. Works, Buildings, and Repairs, etc. 60,000
£ Vote 11. Miscellaneous Effective Services 123,000 2,537,000 Less Surplus on Vote 1 37,000 Total £2,500,000"
I have a notice of Motion on the Paper, but I understand that it will have to be a little modified, namely, to reduce Item Vote 10 by £100, in respect of Rosyth Naval Depot (Additional Provision). I desire to move that Motion.
The Noble Lord cannot move to reduce an item after a reduction of the whole Vote has been proposed from the Chair.
Can I not move to reduce the whole Vote by £50 in respect of the Rosyth Naval Depot?
If the Noble Lord moves a further reduction of the whole Vote, it should, I think, be for a larger amount than the reduction moved yesterday.
I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £200.
I do so, of course, in order to raise a question about Rosyth. The question I desire to bring before the Committee is one of some importance.
On the point of Order. Will it be open on this reduction to discuss other questions than that of Rosyth, or shall we be confined to that question?
A reduction of the whole Vote does not confine the discussion in any way to a particular item.
I felt it was impossible to attempt to interfere in the general discussion yesterday by raising the particular question about Rosyth. Therefore, after taking advice from the authorities of the House, I waited until I thought that the general discussion was over in order to raise this special point, which is one of very great importance, and which thoroughly merits the attention of the Committee. It is, indeed, a matter of much surprise to me that the question has not been debated before in this House. Some of us who have complained regarding this matter, which closely affects the welfare of the working classes, thought it was one likely to be brought forward by Members of the Labour party. But it has not been brought to the attention of the House by them, and, therefore, I now venture to raise it. Among the many items in this Vote will be found one dealing with Rosyth. It proposes a Grant of £12,500 for Rosyth. I do not know exactly how that sum is to be spent, but it is perfectly plain it will be spent, either to increase the work going on there, or to prevent any diminution of it. In any case, it must result in continuing the employment of a large number of men, and it is quite certain, too, that the men so employed will need to be housed.
The Noble Lord submitted that point of Order to me yesterday, and I then informed him that it was not in order on the Supplementary Vote to raise the question of housing. It is clearly a matter for the main Estimates, and not one to be discussed on a Supplementary Vote. I may point out that the sum asked for here is an additional amount of £12,500, as against a total sum of £3,850,000, of which £590,000 was voted in the Estimate last year, and so it clearly comes on the main Estimate and not on the Supplementary Vote.
It is only in order to give an opportunity of stating exactly how the matter stands that I venture to submit these considerations. I quite understand that, on a Supplementary Estimate, it is impossible to raise again the principle involved in the main Estimate. I clearly understand that point. I do not propose or desire to raise any question whether it is desirable to have a naval base at Rosyth, or whether the way in which the work is being carried on is best for the purpose, or any other question of that kind. What I desire to raise is the exceptionally bad conditions of housing which prevail there, and I submit, if I may be allowed to make the submission, that it cannot possibly be a matter of principle even for this Government to house their workmen badly. Therefore it cannot have been the principle involved in the Vote which we agreed to on the Main Question. The only thing involved by this additional amount is, if I am correct in assuming that the housing conditions are bad, that they must be made worse by any increase in the work being carried on at Rosyth, because more men will have to be provided for. I submit, respectfully, if we are asked to grant this money, I am entitled to call attention to what I am quite certain the House, when it knows the facts, will regard as a perfect scandal and disgrace.
The Noble Lord is not quite entitled, in submitting a point of Order, to make the kind of speech he had hoped to make. With regard to the real point of Order, I have, of course, since telling the Noble Lord yesterday what my first opinion was, further considered the matter, and it seems to me clearly, under all previous rulings of the Chair, to be one of those matters which are not really pertinent to a Supplementary Estimate.
May I ask whether it is possible on a Vote of this kind to move that the amount taken is insufficient to provide for the proper duties of the Admiralty in connection with this matter?
Unless the hon. Member is a Minister of the Crown he cannot propose that.
May I ask, assuming it is impossible to discuss the housing question on a Supplementary Estimate dealing with the Rosyth base, when it will be possible, seeing that during the whole of last Session this subject was burked because the Admiralty refused to put down the main Vote?
I imagine when vote 10 of the Naval Estimates comes before the House, and I never give a determined ruling beforehand, but, as at present advised, I can see nothing to prevent the question being discussed when the main Estimates come on.
In the paradoxical conditions that sometimes prevail on Estimates, had there not been frequent precedents whereby the only way of drawing attention to the insufficiency of a sum for a certain purpose has been to move a reduction? In this case is not the only way of drawing attention to the fact that the sum is insufficient for the proper housing of the workmen employed at Rosyth to move a reduction of the Vote?
No doubt that is so on the main Vote.
You rule it would be in order on the main Vote for Rosyth, but surely, if that is so, it is also germane to a Supplementary Vote which increases the number of men and the necessity for housing them?
Whether a Supplementary Vote involves a question of principle or not is solely for the discretion of the Chair, and largely depends on its proportion to the total originally asked for. It is quite clear to my mind that this is far from being a case where a matter of principle can be brought in.
Would it be possible for the First Lord of the Admiralty to give us a promise that we shall have an opportunity of discussing this question?
That point must be raised in the ordinary way. No doubt if vote 10 is particularly asked for, the opportunity will be afforded.
I asked for it last year, but it was refused, in spite of the fact that I specially represent these men.
You are getting the Government out of a difficulty.
Would it not be possible to permit a discussion, provided it was the general wish of the Committee? would it not be possible for you, I will not say to stretch a point, but to make this concession to the general opinion of the House, if such opinion be generally expressed?
I have to guard the interests of my possible successors. It would certainly be very wrong on my part to allow a breakdown of the rules which have so long governed the discussion of the Supplementary Estimates.
With, regard to what you said just now about your ruling depending on the magnitude of the Vote, will you inform the Committee how much a Vote ought to be in order to justify discussion?
I can only repeat what I have already said. It is a matter for the discretion of the Chair, and I am-clearly of opinion there is no case here for such a discussion.
Is it right for the Chairman to protect the Government from what may be an inconvenient position?
The hon. Member must know that that is a grossly disorderly observation, and if it is carried further I shall be bound to take notice of it.
I withdraw the remark, Mr. Whitley. I did not intend to insinuate anything against your general rulings, which are always fair; but on this occasion I was moved because I thought they were not quite—
After your ruling, I cannot obviously develop my argument. At the same time, I am very anxious that the opinion of the Committee should be taken on this point, and I propose to persist in my Motion, and divide the Committee. I hope I may ask hon. Members to reserve their general observations until we get back to the Main Question.
If the speech is out of order, I am rather doubtful whether I ought to put the Motion.
I submit I am quite entitled to move a reduction of the Supplementary sum.
Will someone representing the Admiralty explain what this increased sum is asked for, seeing we are not allowed to discuss it?
For Rosyth.
Yes; but will the right hon. Gentleman rise in his place and tell us?
It is necessary on account of increased earnings by the contractors.
I do not support the reduction, although I am one of those who think the general expenditure of this country on the Navy at the present time is excessive. That is my own view, and it is the view of my Constituents; but I do think that many considerations which were urged in the general Debate yesterday were really not relevant—
On a point of Order. I think I am right in assuming that if the hon. Gentleman will allow us to take a Division now, he will be able to make a speech afterwards.
He dare not face a Division.
Divide! Divide!
I may point out to hon. Members that this Vote has been set down for discussion to-day, and any hon. Member who catches my eye and is called upon is entitled to a hearing.
Has it not been ruled that it is perfectly in order for hon. Members to cry "Divide"?
It is most disorderly for hon. Members to prevent discussion. My duty is to secure for both sides of the House a proper hearing.
Am I not right in my recollection that it has been ruled that the cry of "Divide, divide!" is perfectly in order?
That, again, is a question entirely for the Chair. If the cry of "Divide" is used to prevent discussion, it is distinctly disorderly.
Is it not in accordance with the immemorial practice of the House? I notice that the First Lord of the Admiralty, who is very ignorant on many matters, is amused at this observation.
No, I am not.
I understand the Noble Lord—the hon. Member for Rushcliffe being in possession—wishes to put a point of Order. If he wishes to do that, will he please address his remarks to the Chair, and not to other parts of the House?
May I say I had no intention whatever of laughing at the Noble Lord's observations. I laughed at the lordly gesture with which he swept away one of his hon. Friends.
Will the Noble Lord submit his point of Order?
I want to ask whether it is not in accordance with the immemorial practice of this House, when a large party in the House desires to proceed immediately to a Division, that they have been in the habit of crying "Divide!" for centuries past? Therefore, why should any objection be taken to the adoption of that course at the present time?
The Noble Lord knows there are cases where Members do properly signify that they wish to go to a Division immediately, but it is my duty not to allow that method to be used for the purpose of preventing debate.
We do not want to prevent debate.
This Estimate has been set down for debate this afternoon, and I must ask hon. Members to allow the discussion to proceed.
On a point of Order. May I ask for an answer to the question put by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury)? He asked whether it would not be in order for the hon. Member for the Rushcliffe Division (Mr. Leif Jones) to move a subsequent reduction after a Division has been taken on the Noble Lord's Motion. That will enable us to get a Division on the point raised by the Noble Lord.
I have already ruled that the subject the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord Robert Cecil) wished to raise is clearly out of order. The Vote being before the Committee, the reduction is not confined to any one subject, and it is open to any hon. Member to speak.
Mr. LEIF JONES rose—[HON. MEM BERS: "Divide!"]
I must point out to hon. Members that this is destructive of all procedure in this Committee. If hon. Members intend to persist, it is clearly my duty to see that the Debate is continued in a proper manner. Again I ask them not to continue these interruptions.
Are we not justified in assuming, so far as we know, that this £12,500 that is asked for in respect of Rosyth may be entirely for housing?
That is not a point of Order The hon. Member, when he catches my eye, can ask the question, and no doubt it will be answered.
(who spoke amid considerable interruption): The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) has suggested that I should defer any remarks I have to make until after this proposed reduction has been disposed of, but I think it necessary that I should oppose this reduction. [Interruption.] In making such remarks as I have to offer I promise the Committee that I shall not be long. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I desire to make a reference to certain speeches that were made yesterday, and to say something—
Why cannot you do it on the Main Question.
The observations I wish to make I have a perfect right to make. I do not desire to make a great demand on the attention of the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] There is no reason why hon. Members opposite should treat me with discourtesy.
Will the hon. Member for the Rushcliffe Division proceed with his point, and I shall then be able to see whether it is in order. I have not yet apprehended what his point is.
I am not putting any point, Sir.
No doubt the hon. Member will indicate his point. I assume that he wishes to discuss the Vote.
I wish to discuss the form of the Estimates, the criticisms that have been made as to their propriety—both in form and substance—the criticism that they ought to have foreseen, and other criticisms which were put forward yesterday. I am afraid I cannot put the whole of my points to you in short form. [HON. MEMBERS: You can do it on the main Vote."] It was suggested yesterday that this Supplementary Estimate was rendered necessary because of bad estimating on the part of the Admiralty officials. As a member of the Estimates Committee, I am one of those who examined, under the chairmanship of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, the Admiralty Estimates last year, and I therefore claim to speak with some peculiar knowledge of the Estimate, and have a right to express an opinion upon the charges which have been made. I submit to the Committee that no justification whatever has been advanced for the charge that the Supplementary Estimate has been rendered necessary because of bad original estimating. In his speech yesterday the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty dealt fully with that point, and in a great measure disposed of it, although I venture to think that he fell into a slight error in estimating the amount of the variation from the original Estimate. He said that there was a gross underestimate of £400,000, apart from matters of policy, but that that was met on the other side by £100,000 increased re-receipts from Appropriations-in-Aid, with the result that the error was only an error of £300,000. I submit that, instead of subtracting the One from the other, if he wishes to arrive at the margin of error which has taken place at the Admiralty, the two sums should be added together, and that, instead of an error of £300,000 it is really an error of £500,000. Even an error of £500,000 on total Estimates of £48,000,000 is not a very large sum. [HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down!"]
You have got all your men here now.
It scarcely amounts to 1 per cent. of the total Estimates. I say in all seriousness that it is very unfair for hon. Members of this Committee, in regard to Estimates which have been framed with infinite care by the officials in a public office, to lightly let loose charges of inaccuracy and inefficiency. I speak with a long experience—[Interruption]—of the Public Accounts Committee. I have sat on that Committee for ten years, and it has been my business to examine the Admiralty officials, and, in particular, the accounting offices of the Department, and I say without doubt that the officials who were accused are experienced, intelligent and diligent officials, and that the nation is thoroughly well served in the Accounting Department of the Navy. [An HON. MEMBER: "What are you doing?"] I am defending the Estimates
You are defending the Government.
5.0 P.M.
Allegations have been made of extravagance in this matter, and I should like the special attention, if I may have it, of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London to this point. I have here the Report of the Estimates Committee, over which he presided with distinction and ability. We had brought before us these charges of extravagance, which were refuted here yesterday. I appeal to the hon. Baronet for confirmation of the fact that we failed to find in the witnesses that came before that Committee, or by any means we had, any evidence of the stories that are told of the extravagance that goes on in the Admiralty Department. The hon. Baronet the Member for the Mansfield Division (Sir A. Markham) yesterday gave us a story about a colliery company with which he was associated offering coal to the Admiralty at 2s. above the price they were selling it to other buyers, and the Admiralty thanking them for their reasonable offer. I should like to remind the Committee that we investigated this question of coal on the Estimates Committee, and this was the unanimous finding of that Committee:—
"Your Committee received certain confidential information on the subject of contracts for coal and they consider the present system is satisfactory."
I contend that if the hon. Baronet (Sir A. Markham) had in his possession facts such as he brought before the Committee yesterday he might very well have come before the Estimates Committee last year and placed those facts before them. It was thoroughly well known to Members of this House that the Committee were inviting Members to give such evidence. I suggest that my hon. Friend ought not to have held back the information, and ought not to have put it forward in the way that he did when it was given to the public as a fact. The Committee found that the present methods were satisfactory. We investigated various charges, and in no case were we able to substantiate any one of them. [Interruption.] Hon. Members are not going to bring my speech to an end any quicker by interrupting me. This Committee ought to pay some attention to the findings of a Committee which they themselves appointed to investigate these Estimates. The Committee found in regard to the whole question of extravagance in the Admiralty—this is paragraph 3 of the hon. Baronet's Report:—
"Your Committee are of opinion that the evidence has been on the whole satisfactory, and that care is taken to obtain good results for the expenditure incurred."
With that finding of the Estimates Committee before them, hon. Members ought not to persist in the charges, freely made yesterday, of extravagance against the Admiralty. Even in the case of the armour ring—and I admit we did have evidence before us of an understanding among the few firms who supply armour to the Admiralty—we had before us full evidence in regard to the price of armour, and the finding of the Committee deserves the attention of this Committee. It was:—
"Your Committee have heard evidence with reference to the difficulties involved in obtaining competitive tenders for armour plate and gun mountings owing to the existence of a trade ring, and are of opinion that it is desirable that this question should be further carefully considered by His Majesty's Government."
I should like on this point to put a question to my right hon. Friend—that is, to ask him how far he has paid any attention at all to the findings of this Committee, and whether they have taken any further steps to investigate this question of what undoubtedly exists, an armour ring in this country? We have no evidence that there is an international ring, but we had clear evidence before us of the existence of an understanding between the five British firms which compete in this matter of armaments. The finding of the Committee was, and it was after pretty full investigation, that though the price paid for our armour is a high price, considering the confidential information which was placed before us by the Admiralty Board, we found that the price was not extravagant, and we did not recommend, though the matter was considered, that the Government should itself undertake the manufacture of our work in competition with these firms. That would be a very expensive process. But I press upon the Government that they should give attention to the recommendations of the Committee and should go further into this matter than they have done.
May I ask your ruling, Sir, whether we shall be in order in calling out "Agreed!"?
The hon. Member had better not risk it.
May I ask why that is not permitted?
Unless it seems to me to require it, I do not give rulings of that kind in advance.
Mr. LEIF JONES rose— [Interruption.]
I have had to speak to the hon. Member for Holderness before. I ask him distinctly to desist from interruptions.
Has it not been ruled by Mr. Speaker on a previous occasion that to cry "Divide!" is absolutely in order, and by Speakers previous to him?
The Chairman is in charge of the proceedings in Committee, and it is my duty to keep order. I have distinctly called upon the hon. Member—and I do not wish to have to go further than that—to cease from disorderly interruptions.
Do I understand you to rule that to cry "Divide" is out of order?
There is no point of Order which can arise on that. I am dealing with the case of the hon. Member for Holderness. I am quite sure he will accept what I have said, and not give me any further occasion to interfere.
The Admiralty, under the old practice of the House, had the consent of the Treasury to the power of transferring money from one Vote to another. The actual expenditure of the Navy at the present is somewhere about £4,000,000 a month. It follows that the probability is that the Admiralty at present have in hand, from the money which was voted by Parliament last year, between £2,000,000 and £3,000,000, otherwise they would be having to ask for more than £2,500,000 in order to get this amount. In bringing a Supplementary Estimate to the House, instead of postponing it to get over the year, the Government have acted in strict accordance with the recommendations of the Public Accounts Committee for many years past. It has been our continual demand on the Public Accounts Committee that when a Supplementary Estimate becomes necessary they should not try to evade it, but should proceed to a Supplementary Estimate and let the House have an opportunity of deciding upon the question. I have had something to do with Financial Committees of the House. There is no desire on the part of the House to take any notice whatsoever of the proceedings of those Committees.
How is this discussion about Committees of the House upstairs in order on this Vote?
Hon. Members must give me a better opportunity of hearing what is said. I will undertake to keep matters strictly to the point. I did not catch the observation to which the Noble Lord referred.
I was referring to remarks made yesterday that the House desired more financial control than it at present possesses. It does not show any very earnest desire in that matter to-day, or at other times. I speak as one of those who think the Navy Estimates too large, and if I do not oppose the Supplementary Estimate now it is because I think that Supplementary Estimates the direct outcome of the Estimates which were sanctioned by this House. I want to invite my hon. Friends who agree with me in condemning our present expenditure on armaments as excessive.
Is the hon. Member in order in discussing the whole question of armaments on a Supplementary Estimate?
As I said just now, it is difficult for me to follow the hon. Member's remarks. It is not in order to discuss the whole question on this Vote, and the hon. Member is not to do it.
I was not doing it. I was inviting the House not to do it.
Would it not be in order—
I understand the hon. Member is just concluding his remarks.
I invite those who think as I do to turn their attention to the Estimates for the coming year, and not waste time now.
May I appeal to both sides of the House on the situation which is arising in the Committee at this moment. It cannot possibly be a good thing for the discussion of Naval Estimates, which do not very often come on, that there should be introduced into them strong party feelings on this side or on that, which have the effect of raising great heat and causing an unreasonable scene in the Committee, and which might conceivably be held outside to indicate a lack of unity which on general principles does not exist at present. I understand that the Opposition who are here are very anxious to take a Division to ascertain the important question, not very much connected with Naval Estimates, whether there are more Liberals or Conservatives in the House.
What the hon. Gentleman says does not appear to me to arise or be connected with this Vote. My suggestion to the Committee is to confine themselves strictly to the immediate matter before us—the substance of the Supplementary Estimate.
rose [Cries of "Withdraw."]
If anything unparliamentary is said it will be my duty to see that it is withdrawn.
In these circumstances I would ask my hon. Friends on this side of the House not to stand in the way of the Division which hon. Members, demand, though I think we have a great right to complain. [Cries of "Withdraw."] I shall withdraw if I have said anything that is unparliamentary. If my conduct has been unparliamentary I will gladly withdraw and apologise. I have said nothing, as every member in this Committee knows, that is not legitimate and fair.
If the Committee is prepared to come to a decision—
What are we going to vote about? I understand it to be a general reduction of the whole Estimate. Is that so? We vote without respect to any item, and if we vote for the Amendment we are voting for a general reduction of the Naval provision.
Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £2,499,800, be granted for the said Service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 132; Noes, 272.
I wish to get some information as to the circumstances which lead to Supplementary Estimates being largely reduced at this moment. The Financial Secretary to the Admiralty explained last night that the over-expenditure under certain heads represented upwards of £3,000,000. Then there were surpluses, reductions, and savings under other heads which enabled the Admiralty to bring down the Supplementary Estimate to £2,500,000. There is a surplus under the head of "J" amounting to £117,000. From the Navy Estimates presented last year it appears that Vote J represents sums under various headings, such as repayments by other Departments of Government for supplies of Naval stores, payments from Colonial Governments, the proceeds of the sales of ships, and other matters of that kind. At page 97 of the Navy Estimates the various items are shown in detail. Therefore it is clear that under these heads the Admiralty received £117,000 more than they expected. Is that derived from larger contributions from Colonial Governments and the Indian; Government, or from the sale of stores and old ships? It is a very important item. The next item to which I wish to call attention is K (ii.), amounting to £160,000—money provided for new coaling machinery and ships for coaling. The total of the original Estimate was £440,000, and the savings of £160,000 represent a very large amount of the total Vote. I wish to know whether this very large saving has been accomplished without in any way crippling the Service, or whether it is the result of any change of policy on the part of the Admiralty. Has the Government decided not to go on with the provision they expected to make for the coaling of the Fleet?
Item C refers to work for warships built by contract. The original Vote contained very large sums for armour and propelling machinery, and a sum, not so large, for gun-mountings. With respect to the item for the hulls of ships, we were informed last night by the First Lord that they were expediting the hulls of three additional ships, and also those of ships already in hand which were not part of the programme last year. The total amount estimated last year under that head was £207,000 more than was expended. I admit, of course, that the total Vote is a large one, but this is a considerable amount, and some explanation is required as to why the work has fallen so far behind. It has been said on the other side of the House that we have been complaining of the Admiralty's officials. So far as my hon. Friends and I are concerned, that is very far from our intention. We always find that when it is not convenient to give a correct answer the Government fall back on a eulogy of the Admiralty officials, or the Home Office or the War Office officials. These Estimates are the result of the policy of the Government. They are made by the officials of the Admiralty in compliance with the orders given to them, and the Government are responsible for them. The result of this changing policy of the Government is to produce confusion. They bring forward Estimates in March; they alter them again in July, and later on they again come down in March with further Supplementary Estimates for a very large amount. All this results in confusion. This is not the fault of the Admiralty officials. It is due to the confusion of policy of the Government themselves, and no doubt to the difficulties with their party in relation to the Navy. Some protest should be made against this constant attempt of the Government to shelter themselves behind a eulogy of the permanent officials, who we all know are most efficient officials, and do their duty admirably according to the instructions given to them by the Government.
I would ask my right hon. Friend to give replies to some of the points which were raised by various speakers last night. The Financial Secretary made a long reply last night, but he never dealt with the particular points which I want to raise now, as to which we are certainly entitled to have, and what the Government has to say. My right hon. Friend the First Lord was not present when I spoke. I will not repeat my speech, but I would direct his attention to the point which I tried to make. It arose through some remarks which he made as to the provision which is to be made in default of the three Canadian ships. He says:—
I submit that that is a grossly unconstitutional and irregular proceeding. I hope that my right hon. Friend understands the point. It may be perfectly right that we should build these ships, but it is grossly unconstitutional and absolutely unprecedented that we should have a Supplementary Estimate for a complete change of programme which has never been before the House. I should be glad if my right hon. Friend could find some precedent for the action which has been taken. If this is to be done, we might have changes of the shipbuilding programme in any direction.
It may save time if I remind my hon. Friend that the decision of the Government was announced to the House on 5th June, and that after that the Shipbuilding Vote came on and no protest was at any time raised in any quarter of the House.
If that is the only answer, may I point out that the opportunity which we have of discussing these things is very small? It certainly was not agreed to. There had been a preliminary protest, which I myself made, and my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling Burghs made, and because we were not called when the Shipbuilding Vote came on and were not able to speak in protest, then we are to have a new departure made without the express sanction of the House in any way.
I do not think it would be arguable that unless every Member who differed from our proposal had an opportunity of speaking independently, the Government could not proceed with the policy which had been openly announced to the House, in regard to which there is an opportunity of discussion at a later stage. I think that there are many precedents to the contrary in that respect. Many vessels have been laid down at an earlier period than was expected, and when my hon. Friend may have desired to express his individual dissent I think it is fair to say that the Committee of this House, as a whole, did approve, and approve very emphatically, of the very moderate proposals which we made in regard to the acceleration of these ships.
The question really is this, whether any definite provision was made for this particular shipbuilding which is not an ordinary acceleration of ordinary ships but a change of policy? The policy really is this, that because Canada provisionally offered us three ships which were to be entirely in excess of our ordinary programme and of the 60 per cent. standard and afterwards failed to carry out that offer—
I understood yesterday that it was ruled by the Deputy-Chairman that we were not in order in discussing the principle which was involved in the acceleration of these ships, and I was myself called to order for having unwittingly transgressed in that respect. I would like to know whether it is open now to the hon. Member to raise the "whole question, because if so we shall feel bound on our side to take advantage of the opportunity for discussing it.
I would like to point out that the First Lord in his statement expressly gave as the reason for his acceleration the failure of the Canadian Naval Aid Bill to pass into law. Therefore, am I not entitled to discuss that?
The last thing which I would wish to do would be to stand in the way of my hon. Friend, but I do submit on the point of Order that it would be quite impossible for me to do justice to the discussion of the very important matters, questions of policy, which he wishes to raise unless I can go fully into the question not only in relation to this particular acceleration, but in relation to any measures that will have to be taken in the new Estimates; and the discussion of those measures would lead most undoubtedly to a survey of the general position of our Navy, and particularly the Mediterranean situation. I do not think it would be fair to ask us to embark upon that question on this Vote. I understand it would not be in order. Unless we could embark on it fully, I could not give my hon. Friend the answer which he desires, and which the importance of the subject requires.
On the point of Order, the hon. Member must not pursue that line.
But I may refer to it as the First Lord has done?
The hon. Member referred to it, and I must now ask him to pass from it.
I was referring to it when I was interrupted. The point which I was making which I think will be in order—
The hon. Member must take that as my ruling. He will now leave that point.
May I respectfully point out on the point of Order, that there was a distinction made by the First Lord in the case of the acceleration—that is to say that £450,000 was in respect of certain acceleration and another £1,000,000 was in respect of other acceleration. With regard to the £450,000 referred to—
I have given my ruling as to the hon. Member referring to the policy in reference to the whole question of acceleration, and I must again ask him not to pursue that point.
This very point was ruled to be in order and was discussed very fully yesterday.
I am putting my point of Order less on grounds of order than on the grounds of the convenience of the House and the practicability of discussing the matter fully.
I would like to point out that yesterday the whole of my speech, which occupies two columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT, was made on this point which I am trying to raise again to-day, and I am complaining that my right hon. Friend has not made any attempt to answer it.
On the point of Order, which I have already ruled, the hon. Member has already stated his views in two columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT on the point, and he is not in order, under another Standing Order, in indulging in a repetition of argument which he addressed to the Committee yesterday.
I have no desire to repeat the arguments, and I do not profess to do so, but in answer to what my right hon. Friend has said, it is very little satisfaction to us that we shall have an opportunity of discussing this point later on when the Estimates are reached. If, as we believe, a change of policy in the programme of the Government has been arrived at on Supplementary Estimates without first of all obtaining the sanction of the House, I think I am entitled to point out that this has been done without being in any way disorderly. On that ground I think that we are entitled to make very serious protests against what I believe to be the very unconstitutional and the irregular nature of this Supplementary Estimate.
I desire to ask an answer in reference to various points which were raised in the Debate yesterday. The Secretary to the Admiralty having, as he said, confined himself to the financial side, asked at the conclusion of his speech that the Vote should be granted. The Financial Secretary confined himself to the purely technical question of Estimates. He did give an answer to one part of our criticism when he said that he had represented to the Treasury the desirability of having separate items in the Estimate.
There have been many expressions of opinion as to the form of these Estimates being obscure. It is not a matter for us, but for the Treasury. We can represent to the Treasury the views expressed in this Commitee, and we have already done so.
What was said had reference to the form of Supplementary Estimate, but what we ask has regard to the form of the original Estimates. The Supplementary Estimate will follow the original Estimate, which ought to be clear. There should be a figure as to the cost of oil in each year, and also for the cost of coal—I mean we should have the total Estimate of cost of oil and coal for the year. We also ought to have the cost of ships building or built for carrying this oil, together with the cost of storage accommodation at the various depots. I think we ought to have all those three items separately, if we are to properly follow the cost to the country of the adoption of the new form of fuel. Seeing the cost increased by £1,500,000 this year, and now there is another £773,000, we ought to have the figures in regard to those items. In regard to the main Estimate, the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty told us that there is only a difference of £300,000. The difference was £400,000 on the Estimate, and that on appropriation £100,000. Item K 2, in the original Estimate, was £422,000, and the saving on that is £160,000. That saving amounts to more than one-third of the whole Vote. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman can be congratulated on an Estimate in Which there is a difference of more than 33 per cent. But I would point out that if the whole of the rest of the increase rests upon what are termed political decisions, in that case it only throws a heavier responsibility on the First Lord of the Admiralty. It is in regard to the overspending that I wish to make a few remarks. Member after Member on this side of the House asked for an explanation, and received none. Nor have they received any assurance that these Supplementary Estimates will not form a precedent.
I want to make quite clear the points on which we desire to have assurances. First, there is the cost of oil. The right hon. Gentleman yesterday assured us that all that had been done was covered by precedents, that it had been in accordance with strict financial propriety, that all necessary covering authority had been obtained at every stage, and, finally, that Parliament had been informed at the earliest practicable moment. I think that in endeavouring to prove it the right hon. Gentleman did not in any way come near the mark. In regard to the Estimate itself, he admitted that when we saw the Estimate we could not tell much about it, and when he came down to this House yesterday the right hon. Gentleman very properly, though for the first time, gave us the information which enabled us to understand and to divide the Estimate into five heads of spending. The first is the expenditure on oil, £500,000; the second is a programme in connection with aircraft, £250,000 in the present year; then there is the increase of £200,000 for wages and dockyards; and the fourth item is £450,000 for the acceleration of ships in consequence of the delay in the Canadian ships. The final item is the increase on the payments on contracts, £1,000,000. The First Lord of the Admiralty, in his statement, said that the money had been spent, and that liabilities had been incurred to the amount of £250,000 on aircraft. What did he tell us with regard to that service, which is an absolutely new service? We had never heard of it. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman had no authority, nor had he given any information to the House, in regard to that item. He tells us that the Cabinet knew and that the Cabinet had decided in July last. But no information was given to Parliament in July last, nor had Parliament any knowledge of the matter until the Supplementary Estimate was introduced.
Parliament expressed its view.
Some Members expressed their view, but there was no Resolution and no Vote to that effect. That being so, what becomes of the First Lord's claim that the necessary covering authority had been obtained at every stage? It was not obtained with regard to that item.
This is the first occasion I could make any Estimate. No Estimate was framed at the time Parliament rose.
The right hon. Gentleman told us yesterday that it was the suggestion of the Cabinet, but no announcement was made to Parliament. In regard to the £450,000 for acceleration in consequence of the delay of the Canadian ships, it is perfectly true it was mentioned to Parliament; but there was no covering authority asked from Parliament to carry it out. We are not bound by statements of Ministers in this House; it would be a strange proceeding if we were to be bound by statements of Ministers made on different occasions. The House really is bound only by its own votes; the real authority is when the matter has been brought up and voted upon by the House. Therefore, I support the protest of my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Morrell) that this has been deliberately done without the authority of Parliament. In regard to two of these items, the necessary covering authority has certainly not been obtained from this House. Nor has the right hon. Gentleman informed Parliament at the earliest possible moment of this item. The decision, he mentioned, was announced to the House of Commons in June last, but I maintain that we ought to have had a Supplementary Estimate then, when we could have exercised control, and not now, when the money has been spent. With regard to the expenditure on oil, the right hon. Gentleman tells us that the matter was considered in the summer of last year, and the decision was to increase the reserve.
This House sat during the summer months of last year, yet no mention was made of any intention to increase the oil reserve. Here, again, there was no covering authority, nor was any information given to the House at all. The first information we have had was given to us yesterday. That is the only information we have ever had. In regard to this item, I repeat that the assertion of the First Lord that covering authority had been obtained is not proved, and no information was given to this House. That is in regard to three items out of the five items in which there has been overspending. I suggested to the right hon. Gentleman that he intended to make a practice of these Supplementary Estimates, and he was somewhat indignant, and gave me an answer to which I will call the attention of the Committee, because it rather confirms all I have said with regard to this matter. This is what the right hon. Gentleman said:—
dissented.
6.0 P.M.
I understood that the original Estimate was so correct that the right hon. Gentleman himself pointed out that there was a difference only of £300,000. He said yesterday:—
"Across the whole of this vast fluctuating business of production under so many heads, which goes forward, on the whole, so successfully, and which in the end combines so harmoniously, the House of Commons, in it wisdom, draw the arbitrary line of the 31st March. No doubt that is a necessary condition of annual finance, and I bow to it with reverence."
Then he went on to say that really if Estimates were to be perfectly correct in all details, they would have to be given up altogether, and there would be none at all. He told us that in that event he would come down to this House and ask for a lump sum, and that if we wanted to know how the sum was spent, we would be referred to the Appropriation Act. That is treating the financial control of the House in a manner which I think is not quite in accord with what we have a right to expect from a Minister of the Crown. I do not want to, nor do I think I am, misrepresenting the right hon. Gentleman, I quote from the OFFICIAL REPORT of yesterday what he said:—
"Certainly, if it were held to be a grave fault—if the House were to take the position which I see has been taken in some quarters where I read with attention—that it is a grave financial error and miscalculation to have variations of this character, then I am bound to say I think we should be forced to abandon altogether the attempt to give in advance detailed information under all these sub-heads in the Estimates. What we should have to do—I do not think anybody would take the responsibility if it were going to be a cause of complaint of making prophecies in regard to all these fluctuating matters—we should have to ask, on account of the general body of outstanding shipbuilding liabilities, for a Vote on Account well within the limits of the total amount Parliament had sanctioned, and then present details at the end of the year in the Appropriation Account. I wish respectfully to tell the Committee that, while we do our very best to give beforehand the best forecast of earnings under the different heads, the variations from outside causes on all account are so continuous that it is to the total aggregate of money taken for shipbuilding rather than to this specific allocation between different sub-heads and heads of charges that the Committee should look to form a fair and trustworthy judgment of the progress of naval expenditure."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, March 2nd; l914, col. 94.]
This is really a question of great importance, and the statement I have quoted shows in what a light way the right hon. Gentleman regards the control of this House in financial matters. I think we ought to be very careful that we are not creating a precedent. What I want to know is whether this proceeding is in the future to be regarded as a precedent, so as to enable a Department to exceed the amount of money voted for particular purposes. Supplementary Estimates are sometimes a necessity, and occasions will arise when the expenditure is necessary, but this is expenditure of an entirely different character on a new service not authorised by Parliament. There was no urgency, and no new features have been brought forward. Why did the right hon. Gentleman refer to what the German programme was in this respect? If he looks at it he will see that it was £147,000 this year for aircraft and £100,000 last year, making £247,000 in the two years, while we are spending £250,000 in this Supplementary Estimate for a commencement, and we are going to spend nearly £500,000 on new aircraft in addition to what we have already spent on aeroplanes and waterplanes. Why refer to Germany? Surely we can go on our own basis without referring to other Powers! I wish to know whether the ordinary safeguards with regard to finance are going to be followed, and to get from the Prime Minister an assurance that this is not going to be a precedent in the future; for, otherwise, it might lead us into spending of sums of which we have very little con- ception unless we reassert the authority of the House of Commons over finance. I ask, further, that this Supplementary Estimate should be referred to the original Estimates Committee. Why should we be hurried now to give a decision without proper information? The money has been spent, but we ought to see whether we can provide against anything of the kind in future. If that is not done, what other assurance can we have that this proceeding will not be drawn upon as a precedent by this or some future Government to the detriment of the control of this House over finance?
I listened to this Debate for the greater part of last night and tonight with the very greatest interest, and I cannot avoid drawing a contrast between the condition of the House at this moment, when a real question of the vital business of the country is being discussed, to its condition about an hour ago, when a matter was under discussion which really was of no consequence at all to the country. There can be no doubt whatever of the intensely vital importance and interesting character of the question raised by this Supplementary Estimate. Personally, I think it is a great pity that both in the discussion in the country, which was very widespread and intense before the Session opened and before the Estimates came under discussion, and in the discussion last night, that so much attention should be directed to the form of the Vote and to the question whether the First Lord of the Admiralty has been guilty of an irregularity and of a financial offence—I mean as regards the form. I do not think he has. I have looked into these Estimates a little. I have listened carefully to the whole of the criticism which has been brought forward during this discussion, and I cannot see that any case has been made out against the First Lord for irregularity at all. The question of the transfer of the balances, which has been largely discussed both last night and tonight, is an old standing dish, a hardy annual. I discussed it myself fifteen or twenty years ago, and many hon. Members who have spoken at considerable length appear to me to be ignorant of the fact that every year, every Session, almost sub silentio, we pass along schedules of these transfers, both as regards the Army and the Navy.
It has been an established practice of the House for the last thirty or forty years and as long as I can remember here, thirty years. I have frequently remonstrated against it. I think it is a dangerous practice. It may be necessary, but I think if it is not necessary it ought to be done away with. It is an old Treasury system, and, as was explained by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, it has been a matter of comment and discussion for fifty years in this House. The only change that has taken place has been in the direction of tightening the Treasury control and control by this House. There has been, therefore, no departure in this Estimate as regards the transferred balances. Let me turn to the question on other items—I mean the large items for additional Votes. So far as I can understand they are entirely in accordance with the practice of the House, and the only point at issue is the magnitude of the Estimate. It is not a question of form. I think it is a great pity that the attention of the Committee should have been so largely distracted, as it has been, from the real points, which are really vitally important points. The real point is the magnitude of the Estimate.
And the time of presenting it.
Is there any particular point in that? This was the time.
Not when the money is spent. Surely there is the difference.
The hon. Member does not know the practice of the House. Technically speaking, of course, it sounds very plausible to say that you must present the Estimate before the money is spent, but on hundreds of occasions it has been the established practice for years to present a Supplementary Estimate when the sum provided for in that Supplementary Estimate has been spent. The really important point is the magnitude of this Estimate and the commitment which it involves, and there we come up against the enormous difficulty which has obstructed the whole of this Debate. The fact is that, according to the Rules of Order, we really cannot properly discuss this Estimate at all, because we are cabined, cribbed, confined, and headed off when we attempt to discuss the only important issues which are concerned with these Estimates. I must confess, though I am very strong on this question if I had freedom to give expression to my views, that I think the First Lord made out an overwhelming case in one respect, namely, that in so far as these large commitments are concerned, he warned the House, not once, but repeatedly during last Session, and the proper time to have protested against these commitments was during last Session, in last Spring—
We did protest.
Very few protested. I do not quarrel with the fact that the hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. D. Mason) did protest and one or two others, but the main body of the House did not protest, and they accepted the Navy Estimates, although they were repeatedly warned by the First Lord and by other Members of the Government of what the House was committing itself to. I, myself, have been rather muzzled during the last two or three Sessions on this subject. I longed to express my views on the question of the Canadian ships, and on the conduct of the Government in appealing to Canada, and in sending a confidential memorandum to the Government of Canada which contained information concealed from this House.
You voted for the Government.
Yes, I voted for the Government. I was going to explain the difficulty I found myself in, and I think when I have done so, any reasonable man in the House will say that I was perfectly justified in the action I have taken Really, the right time to protest against the whole of this policy was when the First Lord came to that box, and more than once in my own hearing indicated to this House that we were to be committed to Naval preparations and the accelerating of Naval construction in order to make up for the failure of the Canadian ships. That was a momentous announcement of policy, far-reaching in its effects, and, in my opinion, utterly indefensible, unnecessary, and inconsistent with the speeches made by the First Lord when he offered an agreement with Germany two years ago, and again at a later period—wholly inconsistent, and it was taken in that sense by Germany. I think it is impossible to exaggerate by the mischief, done on the Continent and in Germany by—
The hon. Member is going beyond the border-line.
This only illustrates in a most striking way what I mentioned to the Committee a few moments ago, namely, that on these Estimates, we are quite unable to discuss the real questions. I will content myself, drawing my brief observations to a close, by saying that on this occasion, as on many previous occasions, and I have no doubt on many future occasions, I shall vote for the Government against my convictions, and probably spare the Committee the pain of listening to long speeches protesting against the policy of the Government, and for two reasons, first of all, because I support the general policy of the Government and desire to see it succeed on other matters, and secondly, because I am an old Parliamentary hand, and I ask myself when I am going to take any action in Parliament what will be the result of that action, and I certainly am not going, either now or at any future time, to defeat this Government in order to vote in Gentlemen whose only complaint is that the Government are only building four ships this year when they ought to build nine.
I should like to address my remarks to the point made by the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, that the Supplementary Estimates were excessive in amount. They amount to only 5 per cent. of the total Estimates, and I would ask business men on either side of the House would a large business, spending on capital account each year from £25,000,000 to £30,000,000, consider a 5 per cent. margin an excessive figure to work upon during that period? [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes."] Having had some experience myself of drawing up an imaginary estimate for capital expenditure during the year, and of looking at that estimate at the end of twelve months, I must confess that I have seldom been able to keep to within 5 per cent. of my estimate. Take a large shipping or railway company, with large commitments on capital expenditure. Is it unreasonable for them to expect their managers, spread all over the country or in different parts of the globe, to keep their estimates within 5 per cent. of the actual expenditure? No doubt it would be quite easy for the Admiralty officials to keep within their original estimate. I can well imagine that if this Committee is loth to approve of Supplementary Estimates, Government Departments in future may endeavour to make their Estimates as large as possible, so as to avoid the necessity of coming to the House at the end of the year with a Supplementary Estimate. I admit frankly that the Admiralty are asking for a large sum, and the First Lord has to give good reason to justify the expenditure.
Supplemental Estimates, in my opinion, can be justified on two grounds. The first is that the Admiralty have not proceeded with works which this House has not authorised. This point was fully covered yesterday, therefore I will not refer to it now. Another point, which to my mind is of force in this matter, is that the House should endeavour, as far as possible, to steady taxation from year to year. If I may judge from the revenue returns, the revenue this year is steadily improving, but there are perhaps lean years ahead. This Supplementary Estimate will undoubtedly tend to check expenditure in the coming year. In face of the increased revenue returns and of the lean years ahead, is it not wise to spend the money this year, and so forestall expenditure in the coming year? No doubt that is not in accordance with strict constitutional practice, but, in my opinion, there is a stronger point for Members to bear in mind, and that is the interest of the taxpayers as a whole. If by the introduction of this Supplementary Estimate taxation can be checked in future, I think the Government have taken the right course in bringing it forward this year. There is undoubtedly a very strong feeling on the part of Members on this side of the House that more information should be given with regard to the Navy Estimates. The information supplied in the past, when the Navy Estimates were only £30,000,000, is insufficient for the needs of this House when the Estimates are round about £50,000,000. Yesterday and to-day not only the administration, but also the policy of the Admiralty have been attacked. The Estimates Committee, under its terms of reference, is unable to examine into questions of policy. It is restricted to questions of administration. I should like to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will extend those terms of reference so that the Estimates Committee can report to this House on both policy and administration. The First Lord has much to gain and nothing to lose by the full facts being known. If I may say so, he is not lacking in courage. I would like him to endeavour, as far as possible, to enlist his opponents and critics, and to ask them to examine not only the policy, but the administration of the Admiralty. I believe then that his policy might be justified in the future by his present opponents.
Yesterday afternoon the attack on the Government was opened by the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald), who made great play with the point that the Admiralty, by their enlarged Estimates for shipbuilding this year, would tend to create unemployment in the years to come. On checking the figures bearing on this point, I find that, taking Votes 8 and 9, and omitting the provision for oil and coal, the amount in 1913–14 as compared with 1911–12, shows an increase of only 4 per cent. In other words, the Admiralty this year have been guilty of increasing the Vote for shipbuilding and material by 4 per cent. Shipbuilding is the most fluctuating of industries. It is more liable to extreme forms of adversity and prosperity than any other trade. It is well known that in bad times unemployment in the shipbuilding industry amounts to as much as 25 per cent. Yet the hon. Member for Leicester drew the inference that, because the Estimates were largely increased this year, unemployment would be created in the future through work not being forthcoming for the shipbuilding yards. The difference is only 4 per cent., and I suggest that the hon. Member's argument was built on a very unsound and unstable supposition.
Will the hon. Member give me his figures?
I will give the figures if they are questioned. I have taken Votes 8 and 9, and omitted the total sum allowed for oil and fuel. In 1911–12 those Votes amounted to £24,220,000 In 1913–14, including the Supplementary Estimates now under discussion, they amounted to £25,294,000. In other words the figures for 1913–14 show an increase of only 4 per cent.
What about deductions?
I have taken the total figures for each year. I have added the Supplementary Estimates, and the only deductions I have made is the money allocated for oil and fuel. I have endeavoured to look at the matter quite fairly, and I trust that the hon. Member will find that my figures are correct, or point out where they are wrong. The hon. Member, building up a great argument on mere surmise, endeavoured to show that five armour-plate firms by their policy can either retard or accelerate shipbuilding throughout this country, and that they had actually done so during the past few years. He omitted to point out that the enormous number of ships built during the last few years in the shipbuilding yards by private owners had created congestion. He omitted to point out the extreme scarcity of labour in the shipbuilding yards during the last few years, brought about by the bad trade of 1908–9, as a result of which men left these shores for Canada. He omitted to point out the great delay that has taken place during recent years in the delivery of ship plate. In fact, he gave no reason to justify the strong argument which he advanced against the Government, by which he claimed that the Admiralty were mere tools in the hands of these armour-plate firms. Surely motives of self-interest alone would make these firms glad to fulfil, and fulfil promptly, orders for warlike materials of any kind. I admit that the question of the price of armour-plate cannot remain in its present position. The Admiralty experts should be well able to advise the Committee what they consider to be a fair and correct price for armour-plate. I think that the prices now paid by the Government should be published. The whole facts in regard to armour-plate should be laid before the House, so that we might get a true understanding of the position. More information regarding Naval questions should be given by the Admiralty to this House. On this occasion I shall support the Admiralty, not because I altogether approve of the Supplementary Estimates, but because I think that the First Lord has given sufficient reason for the policy pursued this year.
The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) drew attention to the rule under which balances can be transferred from one head where they are not wanted to another where they are required. He said that this was an old rule and a bad practice. I agree. It is a rule which can only be continued if the powers under it are exercised with great care and discretion. It is open to a great deal of abuse, and I cannot help thinking that in the present instance the rule has been abused. It is almost impossible that Parliament, when allowing the transfer of balances from one head to another, could have contemplated any such actions as have taken place on this occasion. It is impossible that they could have contemplated under that rule the paying for the Canadian ships, or, indeed, the paying of this very large expenditure upon oil. From that point of view I cannot help thinking that the Admiralty have started a new system, which, if not soon checked by the House of Commons, may grow into a very dangerous method of carrying out work of which the House of Commons has never had notice, and which it has certainly never approved. I do not rise on this occasion, as the Debate has been somewhat prolonged, to deal with the general question so much as to ask a question in regard to the Estimates which perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give his attention, if he is going to reply, as I hope he is, to some of the questions which have been addressed to him. I understod, and the House understood, in regard to the sum of £1,000,000 which is in the Supplementary Estimate, that it was due to the cost of unexpeced work which was out at contract, and which the contractors have completed much more rapidly than was anticipated at the commencement of the year. That, I understood, was the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, and we must take it as being the fact that the contractors have been in such a hurry, of their own accord, to complete the contracts, that they have been able to accelerate the delivery of their ships very much more rapidly than was anticipated by them or the Government at the beginning of the year.
That argument, however, I submit, does not apply to the work which has been done in the dockyards. We have on the Estimates the sum of £1,083,000 which, as I understand it, is due entirely to excess of expenditure on work under our own control. This includes the £500,000 winch has been spent on oil. When we take away that £500,000 we still find £583,000 over the original Estimate, or 10 per cent. more has been spent than was anticipated. I have gone through the Estimates of the last three or four years, and I cannot find that on any occasion there has been a necessity to bring forward Supplementary Estimates under these headings: Section 2, Vote 8—the provision of materiel in our own dockyard and under our own command. There is no question, as I understand it, of the contractors being bound to accelerate that work. For some reason or another we have spent £500,000 more on work which we had in our own hands, and for which we ought to have been able to make a more accurate estimate at the beginning of the year. That needs some explanation. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us why, for the first time, we have had this enormous sum wrongly estimated in regard to work which is entirely under our control. That is the one point I wish to raise. I do not wish to go into the general question to-day. I regret, and I am sure most hon. Members will, that the House of Commons has had so little opportunity to consider some of these very important questions, questions which we ought to have been called upon to decide in the course of last spring or summer.
My hon. Friend who has just sat down has drawn attention to increases in the dockyards. He suggests that while we may not be able to control outside contractors we ought certainly to be able to control the work in our dockyards. My hon. Friend spoke continually of the contractors getting through their work more rapidly than was anticipated. It would be more correct to say that they were executing their work less tardily than we had expected, because in almost every case they are far short of the dates on which they ought to have achieved the particular instalments which have been marked out in the contract of the ship. Therefore, I deprecate very strongly the impression being fostered here, or out of doors, that there has been any acceleration of the British Naval programme. Apart from the three accelerated Canadian ships—which I frankly admit have been deliberately accelerated—apart from these, so far from our programme being accelerated, there has been a general retardation over practically the whole area of the programme, which certainly might be fairly computed, on the average, at not less than between two and three months' building over the whole area of discussion. It would be difficult for me in a moment, in answer to my right hon. Friend, to give an exact explanation of this or that tendency which he traced in the Estimates, but there are many things which affect earning in the dockyards. In the first place, concerning tenders for light cruisers we received from firms all over the country we decided that they were so high that they indicated that the firms were full of work and did not wish to tender actively for the cruisers. We did not, at any rate, choose to pay the price demanded, so we transferred two of the cruisers from the contract section to the dockyard section. That meant, of course, pro tanto, a reduction on the contract section and an increase in the expenditure of the dockyard section. That is not the case with the whole figure to which my hon. Friend has referred, and I am not putting it forward as anything but an instance of book-keeping, which in some cases operate to increase one section of a Vote and diminish another section. It is quite easy to assume that work in the dockyards on a battleship or cruiser is all dockyard work. Investigation shows that when a ship is built in a dockyard all that happens is that it is put together in the dockyard. The materials of which it is constructed are bought from the trade; the engines by which it is to be propelled are always manufactured and bought outside; the armour is purchased outside, as are the fittings of every kind. They are merely fitted together in the dockyard by dockyard labour. Therefore, we in this sphere of dockyard activity are affected by over-earning on the part of private firms in the same way as we are in the ordinary contract section of the Vote.
There are other explanations which I could give if I had a little more opportunity of addressing my mind to the very interesting and perfectly intelligible point which my hon. Friend has raised. For the moment, however, I will content myself by indicating these two important courses of variation in explanation of the increases which he traces. Several hon. Members who have spoken—notably the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire (Mr. Molteno)—who have criticised the Vote have dwelt on the fact that the Committee was not properly informed of any intention on the part of the Government to embark on the new proposals for aircraft. I told the Committee yesterday that when Parliament rose I was not in a position to make a definite Estimate, or prepared with a regular scheme to put before the House for their sanction; and that this is the first occasion that such a proposal can be made. As a matter of fact, although in principle the Cabinet assented to the increased programme of aircraft before the House rose for its vacation, the details of the programme have been greatly varied since, and had I presented a hard and fast Estimate then—had I been in the position to do so—I should now be adding another considerable batch to my many explanations of discrepancies. I do think, however, that I dealt in a frank manner with the House. I am very grateful, indeed, to the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) for the remarks which he made on Parliamentary regularity and form, a subject in which he has long made himself formidable in our discussions. Let me read to the Committee what I really did say on 17th July last, bearing in mind that I had no definite Estimates to put before the House, and that I could not state in detail what the programme was. I said:— House, and to bring matters before them specifically in the shape of Votes, we have to be guided by general considerations of business management in the management and control of the business of this House, and also by what are considered financial considerations. It was not possible when the House rose for us to say with certainty that there would be a Supplementary Estimate of the kind required. Now we know; now we are confronted with a larger over-spending and over-earning by the contractors on the Estimates made. In August it looked as if there would be another very large over-earning by the contractors. By the way in which the money was going out and being earned, it appeared that we should require more money. But before the end of the year was reached the situation was altered, and we were able to get through without a Supplementary Estimate at all, and it was quite possible that although, as is now shown, we under-budgeted perfectly sincerely, and although we added undoubtedly new charges and new heads of charges to our original proposals, it was quite possible when the House rose in August that we should not have to come before the Committee and ask for the additional £2,500,000, but might have to make a small surrender to the Treasury.
That brings me to the general question of merit which lies behind this question of form. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries was rather shocked at my having stated that if the House were able to take the view of no variation in the sub-heads under the Votes for new construction, if that was to be the great financial basis on the part of the Admiralty, it would be very difficult to find any Minister or official who would take the responsibility for making definite forecasts in regard to matters essentially variable in character. He scolded me on that subject. I have a deep respect for the financial control of the House of Commons and for the forms and conditions of Parliamentary control; I bow with all respect and submission to them, and I enforce them as far as lies in my power in the administration of the Department for which for the time being I am responsible; but it is with a full sense of the importance of Parliamentary control that I have been lead increasingly to the view that the principle we have adopted—I here I am making a personal confession to the House rather than a Ministerial declaration—that the form and principle we have adopted of mixing up together recurring and non-recurring expenditure is not conducive to the best form of financial control nor to the strongest and most practical form of House of Commons control. Here you have two different classes of expenditure, as is well illustrated by this Estimate. You have the recurring expenditure upon establishment, which is a matter of exact account. These are the Votes which my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty has very properly stated, have been very carefully scrutinised and exactly estimated. In that respect, indeed, there is room for all this nice criticism on the slightest increase of these heads; but to mix up with these and to overload them with this vast volume of new construction of non-recurring expenditure in pursuance of contracts already sanctioned by Parliament the whole of which must ultimately mature, but the exact date of maturing being uncertain and leading to a very large variation at any time, is a different matter. It seems to me that though in regard to establishment charges you do require to have these prices estimated, and have the power to bring the Admiralty to book, and demand an exact explanation in regard to increases, although slight, it is not in the interests of financial scrutiny and control to mix up all these vast variable charges which, after all, the House has assented, to, knowing probably they are bound to come up one day or another, and which, when assented to, ought to be put aside under one head separate from establishment charges. That is my personal view, and if I was sitting on the opposite side of the House occupying the position of greater freedom, I would press it upon the House in what I believe to be the interest of Parliamentary control and proper departmental responsibility. That is all I meant by my reference yesterday which so shocked the hon. Member that he attributed to me a mutinous intention and a spirit of rebellion against the authority and wish of the House of Commons.
My hon. Friend proceeded to ask me for information, and that was repeated by other hon. Members. No Minister has ever given so much information upon Admiralty matters as I have. In fact, I have given so much information that my past speeches form an arsenal for inconvenient quotations. It was asked that more information should be given in the Estimates. The form of the Estimates has bee-n prescribed by the Treasury and approved by the House so as to be able to give the maximum possible information to the Committee under the different heads, and to assert the strongest form of Parliamentary control. It is for the House or for the Treasury to require the spending department to give their accounts in a different way. We must obey. We are bound to obey any direction we receive upon that account, but I venture to think that more information would not necessarily mean more light. Here you have got this enormous volume of expenditure nearly £50,000,000 in the present year, rolling up, and what is required is less multiplication of details and some broad and general grouping and classification of the subjects which would enable hon. Members to follow closely, not merely the existing position, but the immediate future of Naval finance. Much information is given in the original Estimate to which, if I may say so, with great respect the Committee has not given great attention. For instance, last year the total for new construction under the new programme was over £18,000,000. Not a single economist or Member in any part of the House drew the attention of the House to that very serious figure. Their criticisms were entirely confined to the gross total in the Estimate in which three or four years of programme are mixed up, and which was practically of course out of our control as far as the great volume of the expenditure is concerned, by the time the actual year is reached. If you wish to make restrictions in the control of Naval expenditure, you should attempt to make it in a particular year. The only way is to try and keep control of the new commitments and to make sure that the sums of money provided for deferred liabilities are greater than the new commitments each year.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries asked for information upon the subject of oil. I shall make it my business when I address the House upon the general Estimates for next year, to trace the causes that lead to the increase of these Estimates as compared with the Estimates I received from my predecessors. I will trace them in detail, and I will make it my business to give the House the figure of the total expenditure on oil, upon oil tankage, upon pipe-lines, oil-craft engines for oil, oil for reserve, oil for consumption, and the protection of the storage, and other ancillary methods. I will give one figure from the whole which will enable the House to measure the experiment and to judge the submitted demand. I cannot undertake to give the different sub-heads, I am advised it would not be in the public interest to disclose our exact reserves of oil, or rather the exact extent of tankage and storage. Therefore, I may give the general figures so that the question of policy may be judged—I am entirely in the hands of the Committee—but I shall ask the Committee to support me in stating the total figures, and not breaking them up into details which would enable information of military value to be obtained by a very simple calculation.
That brings me to the question of the publication of prices. With regard to the publication of oil prices, there is this to be said against it, that if you say the amount of money you are spending, and state the exact price, a simple sum in division would enable a calculation to be made of the amount purchased or to be obtained. Speaking generally on the question of prices, the Admiralty and other public Departments have frequently been pressed upon the subject, and payments were presented to Parliament as far back as 1888, and Parliament has always approved of the price of Admiralty contracts being kept secret. The publication of the prices of commodities is perfectly useless without specification of the commodity. What is the use of saying, as one hon. Gentleman said last night, that the armour used today cost £100 a ton where formerly it cost £20? The armour that cost £20 was wrought armour; the armour that cost £100 is the best armour to be had in the world, as the result of chemical and manufacturing processes of the utmost complexity and expense. It is the same with a very great proportion of our supplies. In order to judge the value of prices it would be necessary to know the whole conditions of the contract and the tenders, and these, if published, would give an insight into our Admiralty business and its military aspects which we do not have into the military aspects of other countries and which hitherto we have not been forced to disclose; but, although I am not able conscientiously to advise the House to require such publication of prices, I should not hesitate to disclose them to the Committee on Estimates, and they were disclosed most fully to the Committee which handled the Naval Estimates last year.
7.0 P.M.
As far as coal is concerned, the hon. Baronet the Member for Mansfield Divi- sion (Sir A. Markham) gave us a rather frank and ingenuous reference to his own business. He told how the Admiralty had been induced to pay 2s. per ton more to a company in which he was interested than the same company was charging the trade at large. I have, of course, asked my hon. Friend to let us have the particulars of that case, so that we may have it carefully investigated, but I am sure that on this question of stores the price at which we are purchasing our coal at the present moment is, as a general rule, substantially less than the current market quotation. That is due to the very great advantage we have of contracting on a very large scale and over long periods of time; and one of the reasons which render it undesirable that these prices should be disclosed in regard to coal is that it would make it difficult for us to obtain some of the valuable tenders we now make, because the contractors can deal with us on a large scale, and they would find themselves bound by demands for their customers with whom they may have obligations to give them coal at the prices that they now offer to the Admiralty. Then, as regards armour, it is a very thorny subject. I have done my best to understand the incidence of this armour question, and since I assumed office of the Admiralty I have obtained the services of Sir Francis Hopwood, the former head of the Board of Trade, who especially concerns himself with the business aspect of Admiralty contracts. It is very easy to say "break the armour ring," but let us see what that means. There are five firms in the country which supply us with armour. You could not, I think, get any substantial competition in this respect from abroad, but we never shut the door, and if it were possible to get armour of the quality we require from abroad and at cheaper prices, and by that expedient to act upon the prices in our Home market, I should certainly, both as an administrator and a Free Trader, not hesitate for a moment to adopt that course. It is very difficult for us at the present time to do this. No scheme has been put forward and no proposal has been made which offers us the prospect of any satisfactory or effective competition in regard to the supply of armour from abroad which would enable us to exert an influence on prices in our Home market. Then, it is said, "Can you not bring other competitors in and widen the area of competition?" Frequently I have had proposals from companies, some of them financed partly abroad and some of them financed at Home, to embark upon the manufacture of armour, but all those proposals took this form: "Give us a fixed contract for a number of years at a certain price and we will put up the necessary plant." We have got five firms that have the necessary plant at the present time, and, if we were to bring a sixth firm in with the necessary plant, all the plants of those six firms, and all the workmen connected with them, and the general machinery of production would have to live off us, because we are practically the sole consumer, and in order to make a continuance of the business profitable to the six firms we should have to supply them with a profit on the capital of a sixth plant instead of a profit on the capital of five plants. Therefore the matter is not so simple as it appears. We are asked, "Why should you not start a State armour-plate factory?" That has often been considered, and it is never excluded from the scope of our policy. Of course it would involve the purchase of an existing plant and the purchase of a business by the Government represented as extremely profitable, and such transactions are not usually conducted on terms which leave the Government in a very favourable position from a point of view of economy. I know how much I suffer when we have to purchase land. Anybody who sells anything to the Government thinks he is entitled to charge any outrageous price which can be extorted. If you are not to purchase you would have to incur a heavy capital outlay. That brings me to a tender spot in Admiralty finance. We are a firm with enormous interests, but no capital account. What would be said by the House if an Estimate for a very large sum was suddenly to be flung on the Estimates and raised by a large capital sum for this purpose? [An HON. MEMBER: "You could borrow the money."]
Why not borrow it?
The Noble Lord is now opening up a field from which I have been taught consistently to avert my eyes. It is quite clear that without financial power other than we now possess, we could not embark on the purchase or creation of an armour-plate business without seriously forcing up the Estimates of one particular year. I wish to say that we have succeeded in procuring terms in regard to armour which are not unsatisfactory, and in forcing very substantial reductions in the prices which used to be charged. It is also true that we have the best armour, according to all accounts, in the world. These facts were all laid before the Committee over which the right hon. Baronet presided. There was a most excellent investigation, and I authorised, not only the junior officials, but responsible heads of departments, like the Director of Contracts and the First Sea Lord to go down and tell the Committee everything. That was a confidence which had never been broken, and everything was revealed, and although the Committee felt in one of their recommendations that the existence of trade rings should be carefully watched by the Government, they reported:—
"They desire to say, after careful consideration of Admiralty evidence, that having regard to the particular considerations which govern the Admiralty in this matter, the money is administered with a due consideration to economy as far as it is consistent with considerations of naval efficiency."
I do not feel that in those circumstances the Committee on this occasion will desire to take any drastic action against us. Of course, from time to time, we must very carefully watch the market and give effect to the recommendations which the Committee have made. If at any time, either by the introduction of foreign competition or by moving in the direction of a State armour-plate factory, we thought we could favourably influence prices, we should certainly do it. No consideration beyond that of equity would influence us in dealing with these grave questions. That is all I wish to say on this subject now; but I should like, in conclusion, to say that although it is my duty to present this great Supplementary Estimate, and it will be my duty if I continue in this office to present the heavy Estimates of next year, I do not take joy and pleasure in extending our expenditure on armaments. I do not view without genuine repugnance and regret the continual and irresistible mounting of the tide of expenditure in almost every branch and part of the Naval Service. I am satisfied, as far as I am concerned, looking over my own conscience and surveying as I can my own actions, that everything that I could do agreeably with the proper maintenance of our relative naval strength has been done to confine these Estimates within the narrowest limits. I think they have never been more severely canvassed and examined than they have been during the last year. What is presented now, and what will be presented in a fortnight's time will, I am confident, stand the severest battery to which it can be exposed from any quarter in the House. I thank the Committee for the attention it has given me.
I do not wish to follow the right hon. Gentleman in the wide ground he has covered, but there is one point he made just now, upon which I feel bound to say a word or two. He said that in certain contingencies he would be prepared to buy essential portions of our war material from abroad, and even in the matter of armour-plate he said he would be prepared to buy it from foreign firms if he could do so more cheaply.
No.
That is certainly what I gathered from the right hon. Gentleman's speech.
I said of equal quality and more cheaply.
I do not want to argue the question of Free Trade and Protection on this occasion, but I must protest against that proposal on purely naval and military grounds. It is not merely a question of buying these war materials from any available source, but it should not be forgotten that if the source is a foreign one you are encouraging and building up the capacity for producing armaments in those foreign countries, which capacity on some other occasion may be used to build armaments which may be used against us. That is encouraging and fostering the creation of an industry which may be, and probably would be at some future period, used against us to our national disadvantage. Whilst I do not wish to raise the question of Free Trade or anything of that kind, I feel that it is a very dangerous proposition for the First Lord of the Admiralty or the Secretary for War to lay down that if he can do so more cheaply and get an equally good article for such an essential portion of our defence as armour-plate he would be prepared to get it from abroad. That is a proposition which would require a great deal more defence than the right hon. Gentleman has given it to-day. With regard to the other alternative, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, of establishing an armour-plate factory of our own, I could not help hearing with some amusement and satisfaction an interjection from an hon. Member behind the right hon. Gentleman, who said, "Why not borrow the capital?" That is the very principle upon which we have been persistently attacked, when the right hon. Gentleman sat below the Gangway in the last days of the 1905 Parliament, because we then borrowed capital in order to deal with permanent work. It is, of course, obvious that if such a great departure from policy as the creation of an armour-plate factory should be decided upon, it would be absurd to say that the capital could be found out of the income of the year. It would be necessary for the Government to do what other Governments have had to do, namely, bring in an Armour-Plate Works Bill as we brought in a Naval Works Bill, and they would be as fully justified in dealing with it as capital under another head as we were. I would not like it to be thought for a moment that we could pass even sub silentio a proposal that even in this difficulty we should turn rather for our supply to foreign sources instead of taking the only practical course adopted in every other country in the world, of paying for the establishment of a plant out of the money which could be borrowed in the ordinary course.
The Committee, for obvious reasons, seldom hears hon. Members from the city which I represent making themselves very vocal in favour of naval expenditure. But one observation has to be made in consequence of what was said by the right hon. Gentleman. It is not only financial purism or pharisaism which deters the right hon. Gentleman from borrowing money for the purpose of creating an armour-plate works of the Government's own. I think, if he examines the obligations, if not of his own Department, certainly those of the War Office, with which his Department must necessarily be in intimate, alliance with regard to obtaining armour and armaments, he will find that some of these firms have been induced to lay down gigantic plant at almost phenomenal expense by promises made by successive Governments that for a long time to come, at least until the benefit of that great expenditure should have been realised, there should be on the ground of plain equity, if not on the obvious strategical grounds of national safety, a large and substantial proportion of Government orders given to those firms which had so incurred those obligations and risks, and had thereby provided the plant in various geographical positions throughout the country, which our national safety so obviously required.
I had perhaps better attempt to define more precisely what I said, because I do not wish to give rise to any misunderstanding. I certainly consider, if a case were established, that the Admiralty were the victims of extortion on the part of a ring of producers of armour-plate, that then we should be justified in that event—if that fact were established, which is not at all admitted by the Admiralty, nor asserted generally—for the purpose of breaking an unfair trade combination to consider the alternative either of entering into the business of production ourselves or partly of obtaining, as an incident, not as a rule, as an exceptional measure, a certain supply of that commodity from elsewhere if it offered. Nothing has been adduced so far to show that you could get from abroad a supply which in price, in quality, and in regularity, and certainty of delivery, would equal the supply which we can command in this country. Still, let me make it quite clear to the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Lee) and to the Committee generally that we must hold ourselves free to protect the interests of the taxpayer if at any time we should be led to the conclusion that we are being unfairly treated in the matter.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will adopt the obvious alternative of making the plate himself rather than the very dangerous alternative of obtaining it from abroad.
I think that most of us on this side of the House, and many, I believe, on the other side, heard with great surprise and regret the right hon. Gentleman's expression that under certain circumstances he would consider the placing of these orders abroad. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] I will try and show why I regard that as a very dangerous step to take. We have to consider our capability to provide ourselves with the necessary armaments at critical times, and I submit that, if we start placing orders abroad, we shall thereby reduce the efficiency of those five firms on which we have at present to depend. If we reduce the efficiency of our own firms and a time comes when our foreign supply fails, we shall then be in a worse position to meet whatever situation may arise than we are at the present time. I was, therefore, very much relieved to hear the right hon. Gentleman's second statement, from which I gathered that he had been rather led to say a little more than he meant when he first referred to the possibility of placing these orders abroad.
Might I point out that, if you want to be economical and to get your goods cheaply, you must have competition, and, if you start and say that you will not go abroad under any circumstances, and will not have a factory of your own in your own country, you put yourselves entirely in the hands of the five firms. The idea of the right hon. Gentleman, I understand, is to have another string to his bow. If the five firms ask a price which he thinks rather beyond the fair price, and if he finds that he can get the armour-plate cheaper abroad, then he will go abroad. I do not often think the Government are right—I do not know- that I have ever said so before—but, personally, I think the right hon. Gentleman would be quite right in doing so.
My reference was entirely to the placing of orders abroad, and not to the providing of a second string by entering into the process of manufacture ourselves.
Might I, as one also taking a great interest in the Estimates Committee, state that the recommendation of the Committee was rather not to buy armour-plate abroad, but, in order to create some competition or some fear of competition that would bring armour-plates down to reasonable prices, that the alternative should be at whatever cost to start works of our own.
I was not here at the commencement of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, so I do not know whether any explanation has been given as to the three large sums applied to the reduction of the Vote which we are now asked to sanction.
I took a note of the hon. Gentleman's remarks at the time, but he was not here later in the evening, and therefore I did not get up to reply. He points out that under Vote 8, Section 2, J, we have saved £117,000, the Estimate of the Appropriations-in-Aid having been £550,400 against an actual amount of £667,400. He asks whether that means that we have entered upon any new policy with regard to the sale of old stores. No, there has been no new policy in that respect, but the sales in the Commonwealth have been greater than were anticipated. Then the hon. Gentleman said there was a saving of £160,000 under K (ii.), the Estimate of £444,000 having been reduced to £284,000. That is due to slower progress than was anticipated on new-craft for coaling and machinery. The hon. Gentleman said that he did not understand how it was so much had been overspent on machinery for ships when at the same time a considerable sum was saved on the hulls of ships. He asked what was the explanation of this apparent paradox. It is one of the fluctuations which arise from time to time, and over which we have no control. Some particular trades—say, the boilermakers—may be in dispute, and the result is that the hull is delayed whilst the machinery may be going full steam ahead.
Am I to understand that the progress on hulls of ships has been less than was anticipated owing to labour troubles in the yards where these vessels are being built?
It has been largely due to labour troubles.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Civil Services (Supplementary Estimates, 1913–14)
Unemployment Insurance
I beg to move, "That, in the opinion of this House, the provisions of Part II. of the National Insurance Act, 1911, should be extended to workmen in certain other trades in order that the scheme of Unemployment Insurance might more adequately cope with any increase in unemployment; that the scheme should be amended so as to remove existing anomalies and give associations of workmen administering it more financial assistance; and that an inquiry should be held into the general administration of Part II. of the Act, particularly of the provision disqualifying from benefit workmen thrown out of employment by reason of a trade dispute."
The first point of this Resolution is the need for extending Part II of the National Insurance Act of 1911, and the reason why we put this question in the forefront is that we feel the necessity for extending the Act in order that it may more adequately cope with any increase of unemployment. I should like very briefly to notice what is the present position. Part II. of the Act provides for compulsory insurance for unemployment in the following trades: Building, construction of works, shipbuilding, engineering, construction of vehicles, ironfounding, and saw milling. The Act further makes provision for voluntary insurance in all other trades through the various organisations. I should like to remind the House that under the compulsory part of the Act both employers and workmen are compelled to contribute 2½d. per individual for each week. The State contributes one-third of the total receipts from employers and workmen. When the individual workman is unemployed he is entitled to 7s. for each week of unemployment up to a maximum of fifteen weeks in any twelve months. I should also point out that there is no benefit paid under the Act for the first full week of unemployment. The compulsory part of this scheme covers something like 2,250,000 fully insured workers. Speaking in general terms, I think this may be said to be about one-sixth of the wage-earning population. I find that the number of payments during the five weeks ending 30th January in the present year, according to the Board of Trade "Labour Gazette," was as follows: Workpeople claiming through Labour Exchanges, 215,728; and the amount paid was £66,809. The number of workpeople claiming through the various trade unions—I have only the organisations that have this matter of Part II. in hand—was 101,976, and the amount paid through these organisations was £29,144. Let me say here that however satisfactory the compulsory provisions for unemployment insurance may be in our judgment they are wholly inadequate to meet the needs of the case of unemployment during any exceptional depression in trade.
We would have it to be clearly understood that we on these benches in the organised labour movement generally welcome unemployment insurance only as a means of assisting those in enforced idleness. We do not accept it as anything like a full, satisfactory, or adequate remedy for the great problem of unemployment, especially as we knew it but a very few years ago. But what we are specially concerned about this evening is that the principle of unemployment insurance is far too limited in its application to the various trades of the country. Moreover, we think, and I believe rightly, that this is the time when this House ought to face the position. If we wait until we have a recurrence of those days when the last Unionist Administration were compelled to pass the Unemployed Workmen Act—those days that came in the succeeding year when, I believe, the unemployment statistics in some organisations increased up to something like 20 per cent. and 22 per cent.—the possibility is that we will have what has often been described as an attempt to legislate by panic. I think all of us who supported Part II. of the National Insurance Act and who have followed closely the various reports that have been issued on the subject from month to month in the Board of Trade "Labour Gazette," and more particularly that magnificent report that was issued during last year by the Director of the Labour Exchanges, can recognise, at any rate, that it has been proved to demonstration that the principle upon which Part II. has been founded is absolutely sound.
That being the case, the proper time to consider an extension of the Act, to include many of the vast numbers of workers who are to-day outside its scope, is when unemployment stands at 2.6 per cent., as it does at the present moment. If we wait until unemployment rises to a percentage of 8, 10, 12, or even higher, it is quite certain that this House would not be able to do its work as efficiently as it would do in the calmer moments of good trade through which happily we have been passing, and are passing at the present time. We are the more emboldened to ask for this extension to-day, in view of the fact that no section of the House would be disposed to question the soundness of the principle upon which this scheme of Part II. has been parted. Looking through the report of Mr. Beveridge, I found that at the time when the report was issued the balance upon the working of the whole scheme stood at £1,600,000. If with the limited number of workers insured it has been possible so to work the scheme that, during the short time it has been in existence, they have a balance of £1,600,000, then, making every allowance for exceptionally good trade, that in itself is the most powerful argument that could be advanced, that the larger number should have been contributing during the period of good trade, so that we should have had a much larger balance to apply for unem- ployment purposes when depression is once more upon us. The amount now in hand is actually larger than the figure which I have mentioned, for I am merely giving the figure which appears in Mr. Beveridge's report last year. We are further encouraged towards extension because of the conclusions which Mr. Beveridge himself has reached after having watched very carefully the working of the scheme from its inception. I may quote one or two of these conclusions from the end of the Report in the Blue Paper C D 6965. There he says: in order to extend the trades in the schedules—for a considerable extension to bring about the inclusion of new trades. Then, I think, on the general question they ought to give very careful consideration to the question of casual and women workers. I think that the cases of the casual worker with a low rate of pay, and the frequency with which he is forced into idleness, and the women worker with a very small pittance, which she often receives, are very hard if they are at any time the victims of unemployment. These great bodies of workers, to say nothing of trades like the textile, furnishing, and other vast bodies of workmen who have been left entirely outside the Act, ought to receive immediate consideration. I know that the answer would probably be that Part II. of the Insurance Act, like Part I., was an experiment. We are prepared to admit that it was in the nature of an experiment, but we had the experience of other places where insurance had been tried. It is a good many years since the Ghent system was adopted, and other countries followed that system, and we have now had the experience of the last eighteen months or two years to guide us, and it seems to me that, at any rate, the Director of Labour Exchanges, in the words that I have just quoted, makes it clear to the House that he is satisfied that the experiment has been a success. That being so, I think that the claims of those bodies of workers whom I have already named ought to receive immediate consideration.
The Resolution also draws attention to the fact that there are certain anomalies in the Act. I want to refer to one or two of them. Take the case of a trade whose members are supposed to be included within the schedule of this Act. Many of them have thought that they were included, but owing to the interpretation that has been given they have been placed outside the Act. I have in mind the case of one organisation represented on these benches by the hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge)—the British Steel Smelters' Trade Union. I think I am right in saying that there are about 1,000 of their membership included in the Act, and some 29,000 left entirely outside the Act. That leads to a great amount of confusion in the administration of this particular organisation, and the case of these steel smelters, I think, is only one instance of many that could be given to prove the point that I am endeavouring to make. Then there is another curious anomaly in connection with the building trade. The workers in the building trade are included when engaged in general house-building. A man may be engaged to-day in building a house, and to-morrow in repairing a wall. In building a house he was using bricks-and in repairing a wall he was also using bricks. Yet, in the one case, he conies within the scope of the Act, and, in the second, he is entirely omitted. I saw a case the other day in which we were reminded that a man might be in the building trade and engaged upon a large building one day and the next engaged in repairing work, using stones and bricks, in connection with a railway arch. In the former case he was included in the Act and in the latter case entirely excluded.
I wish to remind the President of the Board of Trade, in this connection, that he, and I think pretty well everybody associated with the party with which he is identified—certainly Members on these benches—used to poke some very fine fun in respect of the Workmen's Compensation Act. There was the story of the thirty feet—a limit that did such excellent service against the party opposite. We used to remind the worker that if he had to fall it had better be a fall of thirty feet, rather than twenty-nine feet and three-quarter inches, because for the extra quarter of an inch he would get compensation, but if he did not go to the length of thirty feet, then there was nothing for him. The ridiculousness of that condition is only equalled by the ridiculousness of the argument that a workman in the building trade may one day find himself within the provisions of the Act and the next day find himself entirely excluded. It seems to me that the only remedy for this is that the entire building trade, whether engaged in the work of construction or reconstruction, whether engaged in building or the work of repair, should be included. A man ought not to be expected for so long to pay 2½d. per week, and I think it is particularly trying in the case of the builders' labourer, who is compelled, out of his small earnings, to pay whether he likes it or not, and then finds himself shunted because he gets a job of the other class that I have described, and is precluded from obtaining anything in the way of compensation, simply because he has been engaged on repair work instead of building. I should like to bring before the House, and particularly before the President of the Board of Trade, some points which we on these benches and which the Trade Union Congress have decided are points for amendment in any new Bill.
There is the question of ordinary receipts of all trade unions being accepted as sufficient evidence of the unemployed benefit having been paid. This raises the whole question of the audit. In connection with our various trade unions, and in the trade with which I am associated and which is happily included in the Act as it now stands, if we have one difficulty more than another it has arisen out of the question of the audit. It seems to me that there ought to be some much more simple method whereby the auditor and the other representatives of the various Departments concerned could be satisfied without taking up the time of our trade union official, not only day after day, but week after week, in a vain attempt to try to satisfy the auditor. It should be remembered that officials of the trade unions are not appointed to their position because of some very exceptional ability in the keeping of books to satisfy the requirements of the auditor. They are generally appointed, and I think rightly, because, first of all, of their knowledge of the trade with which the union is connected, and because they have shown some fidelity to the primary and essential principal for which that organisation has been brought into being. How can it be expected that men who have been appointed because of these qualifications, which in our opinion are really indispensable, can meet the exacting requirements of some auditors who have recently been visiting the various unions? I hope this is a point the right hon. Gentleman will keep clearly in mind.
Then there is the system of notifying vacancies, and of the evidence which is required by Labour Exchanges. In this matter we have been very much disappointed. When the Bill was going through the House, and when unemployment insurance was first mentioned, I remember a speech being made from the Front Bench in which the trade unions were told that they were practically going to have this business committed to them, that it would be entirely under their control, and that it was going to be a very simple business. We have found as the result of the last twelve or eighteen months' experience that it has not worked quite so simply as some expected. We want to see this system extended, as I said a moment or two ago; we welcome it; we want to assist it, but I would observe that if trade unions are to be put under all these irksome necessities to which they have been subjected, of giving other evidence than that which would satisfy the Labour Exchanges, in order to prove payment of unemployment benefit, there will be created a great deal of hostility to the permanency of the Act. The next point to which I wish to call attention is the question of the one-sixth payment under Section 106, that is a very important subject. Having regard to the amount of work devolving upon the-various trade unions, we have come to the conclusion that the one-sixth should be a sixth of the entire amount which the trade union and the State together pay. This is a matter which has been discussed with a great deal of interest at the Trades Congress, and I hope, without labouring the point at all, that the President of the Board of Trade will give it his most serious consideration.
I should like to urge that the Regulations under which the different unions are compelled to administer the Act are too cumbersome and not altogether well conceived. If there has been one mistake made more than another in connection with Part II. of the Act—and the same applies to Part I.—it is that there is no end to these Regulations, and the mischief of it is that as soon as we have our trade union work adjusted to the Regulation, and before we have fairly got started, the. Regulation is superseded by another Regulation. I appeal to the President of the Board of Trade to take this matter into his consideration, and if we are to have those Regulations, let them be drafted in such a way that any wayfaring man will be able to understand what they mean. Another point which I think must appeal to all the officials of the Board of. Trade, because it must have been brought to their notice over and over again, is the length of time that it takes to decide that certain men, who think they are under the Act, are out of it. The decision, especially in the cases of those that have to go to the Court of Referees, or to an Umpire, ought to be expedited, because, if the man is fighting with his union to get the money, and the union does not know whether the benefit ought to be paid or not, it is one of the greatest possible sources of annoyance. Then there is the question of evidence with regard to unemployment, and there is a feeling amongst the unions that too. much importance has been attached to statements made by some of the employers. I am not going to condemn the whole of the employers in the statement I am going to make, because there are good employers and bad employers, and it has been my experience to meet many of both classes, but, even I think unintentionally in some cases, statements are made by the entries on the cards that must have a prejudicial effect on the workmen's chances in getting further employment.
Let me give a case brought to my notice this week. A man is compelled to work a considerable amount of overtime, and as the result of that overtime he gets fatigued physically, breaks down, and is off employment through no fault of his own, but really because it is impossible for him to continue owing to his physical condition. On his card he is credited only with the actual time worked without the overtime. Thus, if he has worked for four clays with a good deal of overtime, and is off for two days, instead of being credited with the four days, plus all his overtime, he is only credited with four days, and there is nothing on his card about the overtime. What does that mean? That card is taken as a certificate of character, and the man is put down as a bad time-keeper. The next employer he goes to says, "I will not have you—I want a good timekeeper." It seems to me that this was never intended, and it certainly is a great act of injustice, to the workman who has nothing but his labour to sell, and a still greater injustice to those dependent upon him. I hope this point will receive consideration. There is then the question of low-paid workers. Wages, we know, in many trades, are altogether below subsistence level, and it seems to us, and the Trades Congress has endorsed this view more than once, that it is possible, at any rate, if they have to pay the premium at all, that their premium should not be quite the same as that of men who may be getting £2 per week or more. I hope, if it be at all possible, that some consideration will be shown to those low-paid workmen.
There are two other points I feel I must mention, and I desire to urge them very strongly upon the President of the Board of Trade. The first is the question of subsidiary occupation. This question is felt to be exceptionally hard, especially in the case of trade union secretaries. I have not a shred of doubt that this case has been brought before the Board of Trade over and over again. Take the case of a branch secretary, who may have 1,000 members in his branch. His salary is paid quarterly, and it may work out at 9s. or 10s. per week. When he goes to the engineering shop of, say, a foundry, he starts at six o'clock in the morning and works until five at night. Very often that branch secretary has to give up every night to branch work, and, what is more, his Saturday afternoon is very seldom his own, and I know cases where the work is so great, especially at the end of the month or quarter, that they cannot get through it without giving the whole of their Sundays to it. Supposing that one of those secretaries falls out of employment, what takes place? In spite of the fact that he may have qualified by paying the requisite number of weeks, and that 2½d. is deducted from his wages as regularly as clock work, he does not receive a single halfpenny of unemployed benefit under the Act. It seems to me whatever argument there might be against paying a man who might enter into employment after he became unemployed from his own ordinary occupation and whatever might be said if he enters into competitive employment, that in the case of a trade union secretary or a secretary of a friendly society, and their cases are just exactly the same, that there could be no shred of justification for denying such a man the unemployed benefit for which he has contributed while in employment. Therefore, I sincerely hope that this point will be dealt with, and in such a way as to mete out justice to the officials, the very worthy officials to whom I have referred.
My last point is probably one of the most important we on these benches have to call attention to. The closing part of my Resolution asks for an inquiry into the question of men who are affected by a trades dispute. We have any number of illustrations which I could give showing how unfairly the Clause that deals with this point has been proved to work. In my own trade, in the foundry, when the moulders decide to go into a trade dispute, they necessarily bring to a standstill the labourer who has nothing whatever to do with it. He is never consulted, and the punishment that is going to be inflicted upon him is not, I am afraid, taken into consideration, and yet, because the moulders think fit, after using every legitimate means to get a settlement, to go out on strike the labourer who was working in that foundry is denied his benefit under Part II. of the National Insurance Act. In fact, I think we have had cases where we have only got contradictory decisions, and not until we have gone right through to the Umpire have we received anything like satisfaction. Take the instance of the pattern-makers, which is an entirely different trade from our own. When the pattern-maker goes on strike the moulder cannot get work because the patterns are not produced; but they are entirely separate trades. Why should there be doubt in such a case as that, such as we have had to go through, causing any amount of annoyance and disappointment, taking up precious time, conducting correspondence with this official and the other official, merely to point out that they are two distinct trades, and that when one of them goes on strike the other ought not to be in any way affected by the fact of their doing so. It appears to me that this question wants facing.
There is a wider question. As the House knows, there has been pending for some weeks in this great city a lock-out affecting a considerable number of men. In fact, I believe that the building trade of London in connection with some of the most important contracts is practically at a standstill. This is the result of a deliberate, settled policy on the part of the Building Trade Employers' Federation. So far as I am aware, they took this course because they wanted to enforce a certain policy upon the workmen. I am given to understand that they wanted the workpeople to sign a certain document. I understand that that position has been departed from, but for some reason the dispute, or rather lock-out—I cannot call it a dispute—is dragging its weary length along, and thousands of men are being severely punished. The question arises whether it was the intention of the Legislature that, because of an act on the part of the employers, who thought fit to lock the men out, these men should be denied, no matter how long they may be in enforced idleness, all the benefits of the Act. It may be that the Government think that the case for an Amendment on these points has not yet been clearly proved. That I am quite prepared to admit, but I think that a case for inquiry has been made out. If we want this principle of unemployment insurance to give, as it ought to do, satisfaction to the workers who are compelled to contribute towards the scheme—if, as we hope, there is to be a large, if not universal, application of the system, it seems to me that this is the time when we ought to satisfy ourselves that the case of workmen forced into idleness by the decision of an employers' federation is not one that is entirely outside the scope of the Act. I should regret very much if this had to be the permanent position. I am quite prepared to recognise that when a workman is out through any fault of his own, it would be absurd for him to expect that he should have either the employer's money or the money of the State. I hope I have made out my case, first, for an extension of the Act to bring in other trades; secondly, for an Amendment to remove some of the anomalies to which I have called attention; and thirdly, if the Government are not satisfied as to the opposition of the Clause affecting trade disputes, for the immediate holding of an inquiry of some kind in fairness to the men concerned. For these reasons I have pleasure in moving the Resolution.
9.0 P.M
In seconding this Resolution I fully recognise the difficulties in connection with the administration of Part II. of the Act, but I am afraid that those responsible for administering the Act have not set themselves to overcome the difficulties as they might have done. From the standpoint of the workers, I am inclined to think that, as time has gone on, the difficulties of the worker have been increased. I do not think that the officials concerned have done as much as they might have done in the direction of trying to work in harmony with the conditions which prevailed in the trade unions which previous to the passing of the Act gave unemployment benefit. I would like to endorse the remarks and arguments of my hon. Friend with regard to the anomalies which exist and the difficulties under which men are placed owing to what is known as the "character note." There is not the least doubt that many men have been placed in an extremely bad position as workmen owing to the information, sometimes untrue, given to the Labour Exchanges by the employers. I will give a concrete case. I have here a letter from the secretary of a trade union in which he says it is only right that the House of Commons should know what use is made of the character form—I do not know the letter or number—issued by the Board of Trade and sent to employers when men are discharged. The Secretary says:—
I know that it has been stated in this House that unemployment benefit can be paid without the authorisation form. At the same time the secretary runs the risk of being called upon to refund the benefit. That makes secretaries extremely careful in regard to paying unemployment benefit. I have been asked by the right hon. Gentleman himself to give one or two specific cases in connection with this matter. If he has any doubt about what I am going to say, I am quite prepared to let him see the originals of the letters. Here is one from West Kirby, Cheshire, which is not very far from Birkenhead. The secretary of a branch of a trade union that administered the Act writes to me as follows:— That is from one branch. I have also a letter from Belfast in which it says that members signed on at the Labour Exchange on 17th August, and at the date of writing, 4th October, the authorisation form had not been received. "I am," says the writer, "sending particulars of this to the Board of Trade." In regard to the above, I do not know whether the note was received by the Board of Trade, and if so whether any notice was taken of it. But I have given these specific cases, and I can give a considerable number of more if necessary. I believe that I am stating what is well within the truth when I say that the Board of Trade have received thousands of these cases from the officials of trade unions that administer the Act. I am now going into the question mentioned by my hon. Friend—that is the lock-out in London. I have raised the matter on several occasions, and I have been asked to give specific cases where workmen, who have been discharged by firms who had not locked out their men, have been refused unemployment benefit. I could give quite a number if necessary, but I will content myself with one or two as a proof of the statement that I have made. In connection with the Fulham branch of carpenters and joiners, one member called Dunmall was discharged on 26th January, and another, Bowridge, on 27th January, while two others, Houseman and Templeman, were discharged on 9th February. These men were refused unemployment benfit. It may be said in reply: Have they appealed to the Court of Referees? I cannot say. But instructions ought to be given to the managers of Labour Exchanges, so that individuals ought not to be called upon t o appeal to the Court of Referees, for the managers of Labour Exchanges themselves could very easily ascertain as to how these men have been discharged.
There are two similar cases in Clerkenwell from a branch of the same society. There is another case of a bricklayer who went to Norwich. As soon as it was ascertained by his would-be employer that he came from London, lie was refused employment. I have got forms here sent by the Labour Exchanges to society branches which are marked that So-and-So is refused unemployment under Section 87, Sub-section (1), of the Insurance Act. Another form in my hands says that the claim is refused under Section 81, Subsection (1), of the Insurance Act. Section 81, Sub-section (1), deals with its application to Ireland. Whether the official responsible for quoting Section 81 anticipates Home Rule or not, I am not prepared to say, but if that official who so marked the paper had been a workman, and had made so serious a mistake as this, he would have been suspended from benefit for possibly the rest of his life. I simply mention that to point out what is going on. In regard to the lock-out in London I would like to say that if the Board of Trade or the Government are not going to amend this Bill in connection with lock-out that it means that whenever an employer of labour is behind with his work, say, on a Government contract, all that he has to do is to lock-out his men on some pretence or another, and then the strike clause comes into operation. My personal opinion is that these men were discharged in the usual way, by giving them one or two hours' notice; that they were really discharged from employment, and not locked out at all. There is this point arising from that which I would like to bring before the notice of the right hon. Gentleman. I put a question to him today with regard to the action of the employers, and the statement made in a speech delivered by the President of the Master Builders' Federation of Great Britain and Ireland, in which he appealed to provincial employers not to give employment to men discharged or locked out in London. He said they would be able to trace them easily by their insurance card. The right hon. Gentleman's reply to my question to-day was an evasion of the point raised in the question. He said:— ought to be done in connection with this matter. It is not for me to suggest the course. In view of the talent at his command, the right hon. Gentleman ought to be able to find someone who can make suggestions to him that will help him out of the difficulty. Some steps ought to be taken to prevent employers making use of the Insurance books, which are issued under an Act of Parliament that have nothing whatever to do with the relations between employers and employed. I have been at the Office of Works, and I have been told that the Government cannot take sides in a dispute of this kind. They are taking sides. At the present time men who have been discharged from firms who have locked their men out are receiving unemployed benefit. If that is not taking sides as against the men who are locked out, and who cannot receive unemployed benefit, I do not know what taking sides means. The right hon. Gentleman will find, if he makes inquiries, that the men have been discharged because they would not sign the agreement, whilst men who were left in the employment of these firms and have been discharged are now receiving unemployment benefit. Therefore, I take it for granted that, whether intentionally or unintentionally, the Government are taking sides with the employers in this case.
There is another point I should like to mention, and that is the policy or action of the Labour Exchange managers in advertising for workmen at a wage lower than the district rate. I had a question the other clay, which was answered quite satisfactorily, with regard to Margate. I was told that the advertisement referred to a place outside Margate where the rate of wages paid is lower, but it would be the easiest possible thing to say that these men are wanted in such and such a place, and if that was done the men would know that the wages paid are to be those of that particular district. The workmen of Margate in regard to this particular advertisement were under the impression that the men were wanted for Margate. At Dunfermline the Labour Exchange there advertised for men at 8d. and 8½d. per hour—several for Rosyth and Dunfermline—the wage at these places being 9d. per hour. If the Board of Trade think it necessary to advise workmen to go to certain districts to a job, they ought to tell them that the wages will be lower than the standard rate. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that he should issue regulations to prevent these things happening in future. I have got a letter here with the copy of the advertisement that appeared in the paper from the Dunfermline Labour Exchange. There is no doubt about the authenticity of the letter. I should like to refer to the attitude taken up by the officials of the Board of Trade responsible for Part II. of the Act in connection with lost cards. I had several cases brought to my notice, of which I submitted two to the Board of Trade, where cards have been lost. In both of these the employer was prepared to make a sworn declaration that the card was stamped, but in one instance the Board of Trade refused to accept any declaration, and therefore the workmen must lose any benefit he is entitled to. The right hon. Gentleman is making inquiry into the other—a lost-card case at Glasgow. In that case the employer is prepared to make a declaration that the workman worked two years for him, and that the card was stamped, and is therefore entitled to benefit. But because his card is lost he is deprived of his benefit. Some Amendment is required so that workmen in future, if they lose a card, should get a receipt for the card so that they can prove that they are entitled to benefit.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will respond to the appeal of my hon. Friend and cause an inquiry to be made. I know he said in reply to a question of mine that he was getting information in a way much better; but if an inquiry was held he would be able to get the collective opinion of the people affected by the Act. I appeal to him in any Amendment that he makes to make a better provision for the trade unions that administer the Act, so that they can administer it in the future to a greater extent than now. We were told that, practically speaking, every trade union that made arrangements under Section 105 of the Act or that administered it would be very little interfered with by the Board of Trade. In connection with the audit a deputation went to the Board of Trade, and on that deputation were my hon. Friends the Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes) and the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. W. Thorne), and we were told that the audit would not be the same as under Part I, but that surprise visits would be made to branches of societies and the books audited, and then if things were found right everything would be right. I ventured to make a suggestion to an official of the Board of Trade in connection with this part of the Act, and that was that forms with double columns should be issued, in which the trade unions administering the Act would enter in one column the benefits paid by the union and in the other the amount of State benefit paid to each of its members, so that one could be compared with the other, and at the same time the Board of Trade would be able to see the total benefit paid by the union. Now I do hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to appoint a Committee of practical men to inquire into the administration and operation of the Act. I have great pleasure in seconding this Motion.
I think it is a matter of congratulation that we have today, almost for the first time at any rate since I have been in the House, a right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench who is going to speak to us about something he understands from the practical point of view. Therefore, that clears the ground of a certain number of remarks that one would otherwise have found it necessary to make in regard to the speeches of the Mover and Seconder of the Motion. It would be very interesting if the work-people in the country could realise the effect or even hear the speech of the Seconder of the Motion. He went so far as to say how the Insurance Act had tagged and branded every workman in the country, so that he had no longer an opportunity of losing his identity if he wanted to, but could be tracked by this Act either by the insurance officer or by the police. I often wonder what sort of a leaflet would have been got out if the Tory party passed an Act that branded every workman as this Act does. With reference to the character note, might I, speaking now as an employer, state that the trouble which was very fairly and honestly put by the Seconder of the Motion as to the trouble of the character note, is not trouble which affects one side only. To have heard the Seconder one would have thought that an employer, when a man was discharged simply gave him the rottenest character he could in order to injure him in the eyes of the employment bureau. Speaking for myself, the, trouble really is that, to an employer, when he has to fill up these character notes for men whose conduct has been anything but satisfactory, it is a source of worry and anxiety how he can give these bad workmen a glowing character without telling a palpable lie. That is the real trouble with the character note, because if it is not true, and in many eases it is not, in 99 per cent. of the cases the truth is distorted in favour of the workman. Except for the last two lines of the Resolution I should be very pleased to support it, and I was going to say I should be very pleased to go into the same Lobby as the Labour Members, but I do not know which Lobby they are yet going into.
The Mover of the Resolution gave an example of what would happen in the case of pattern makers. He said that if the pattern makers were on strike the moulders would be thrown out of employment and would be entitled to unemployment benefit. The President of the Board of Trade knows quite well that nine out of every ten of the moulders in the ordinary foundries would go on being employed for weeks, and possibly months, on their regular work, even if the pattern makers were on strike. The reason I cannot support this Motion is because I think it would be disastrous to make it easier or more profitable or desirable to create strikes. A strike is war, and you cannot wage war with the gloves on. Therefore, it is not desirable to use State Funds to support the either side in the case of a trade dispute. With regard to the Act generally, and the first portion in particular, I am sorry to say that, like most Acts of Parliament, it is very doubtful whether it does not do considerably more harm than good; but, good as this Act may be in some measures, it is entirely degrading the character of the people by making thousands and thousands of good men into liars, hypocrites, and malingerers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh."] The good that the Act does can never lift up the character of these people again, because having been compelled against their will to subscribe the money which is taken out of their wages, which has been most repugnant to them week after week, they feel that they want to get their own back, and they do. Might I give an example of the ignorance of the people who framed the Act and the folly adopted in administering it? An employer—I will give the right hon. Gentleman the name and address afterwards if he wishes to have it—had a number of girls working for him on very light metal work. It was such light work that a lady could do it in evening dress without soiling her hands, and it was no more difficult than the winding up of a watch. These girls in a country district earn about 10s. a week, and they were put, by the wisdom of the Insurance Commissioners, in a class under Section 4 of the Unemployment Act in which they were called mechanical engineers, which included the manufacturers of ordnance and firearms. These girls, earning 10s. a week, had to pay 2½d. to the Unemployment Fund, and the employer had to pay 2½d., and this meant a tax of 4 per cent. on the earnings of the girls. I am sure hon. Members will agree with me when I say that unless an employer is able to pass a charge of this kind on to the backs of the consumer, it has to come out of the worker, because there is no 9d. for 4d. in real life. This tax of 4 per cent. was resented both by the girls and the employers, and it was pointed out clearly to the Government Umpire that these girls could not by any stretch of the imagination be regarded as engineers.
The Umpire, however, decided that those girls were engineers, and they had to pay their 2½d. and the employer had to pay 2½d. and all of them resented very much the tyranny and injustice of this 5d., being practically a tax on their earnings. What was the result? These girls under the Act as workmen if they fell out of employment, say, thirty weeks after they had been paying their contribution, were entitled to eleven weeks' pay at 7s. per week—that is £3 17s.—while the actual amount paid by the employer and the girls was only 12s. 6d. for that period. This is not a case of an injustice to workmen. I am not making any complaint on behalf of the workmen, but I am trying to show the folly of the administration of the Act in just one case, and it is the only case I have time to give to-night. What happened to those girls? Mary's mother is not very well, and Mary wants to nurse her. She looks up her book, and finds that if she were unemployed she is entitled as an engineer to eleven weeks' unemployment benefit at 7s. a week. Mary is discharged for eleven weeks, and she draws £3 17s., and thoroughly enjoys it, and it does Mary good. In this case the employer and the girls paid 12s. 6d. That sort of thing is going on to-day, and it will go on. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is 9d. for 4d."] There is nothing to prevent it; it is doing these girls good, but was that the intention of the Act of Parliament? I admit it is a fine thing for the girls, and I make no complaint of it. If the President of the Board of Trade likes to continue to call these girls engineers and class them with manufacturers of ordnance and small arms, they will continue to draw £3 17s. for the 12s. 6d. they pay.
Will the hon. Member say what these girls are manufacturing?
I do not mind telling the President of the Board of Trade, and I will tell the hon. Baronet himself when I have finished speaking. I hope the President of the Board of Trade will appoint a Committee to go into this Act, and see whether these anomalies and foolish things which are not in favour of the workmen but absolutely against them, as in the case of other classes of employment, can be remedied, so that an Act, bad as it is, may be made into a sensible Act, and one that will not work harm and create ill-feeling and dishonest people, instead of satisfied and honourable workers.
It is rather remarkable that as President of the Board of Trade I should rise to-night as a trade unionist of thirty-five years' standing to reply to the Motion that has been moved by a workman who is a Member of Parliament and connected with my own trade. I mention that fact because the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down is himself an engineer like myself, and he has appealed to me as a practical man, knowing something of a workman's life and his industry, both in factory and workshop, in pit and in mine, to bring to bear upon this difficult and for the moment somewhat complicated problem that practical experience which every Labour Member gains by direct contact with his own particular industry. I rise, under these circumstances, with peculiar pleasure to reply to the Motion which has been made by the hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson). Before I deal with the several practical points that have been raised, I would like to direct the attention of the House to this fact. This great and yet limited experiment has to-night received practically little adverse criticism so far as the speeches have gone. On the contrary, so much good has Part II of the Insurance Act done in the opinion of outside critics and of Labour Members that to-night we are confronted, not with a demand to limit the scope and operation of the Act, but with a general demand that the Act should be extended to a large number of trades that are now outside its operation, and that this should be done as soon as practicable. It is indeed a great compliment that within eighteen months of it being put upon the Statute Book, we should be asked to apply it not to hundreds of thousands of workers, but to millions of workmen, who now see an opportunity of coming within the scope of it. I can only say that generally we share that view, and, as experience directs as, I venture to say, social necessity compels, and as the industrial advantage warrants us in extending this Act, it seems to me that we are entitled to respond to the first part of the Motion by saying that, instead of there being opposition on the part of the Government to the extension of this Act, already, by virtue of orders contemplated and by an amendment of the Act itself which we, hope to get through this year, we intend to go a long way in the direction of extending it to a number of trades.
I think we ought not to allow an opportunity like this to pass by without giving one or two reasons why this Act has worked so well for the 2,500,000 already included, and why in the opinion of some who have spoken it should be beneficially extended to millions outside. It seems to, me, as this is the opportunity of stating one or two facts right up to date with regard to its working, that it is only just to the authors of the Act that the facts at this moment should be known, and the-facts, briefly, are these: Under this Act, which has only been eighteen months in operation, and which to-night has received generally nothing but praise, 2,500,000 unemployed books for insurance have been issued; 2,250,000 workmen hold these books, and £2,400,000 is the total income derived from the employers' and from the workmen's contributions. I am glad to say that there have been only 1,100,000 claims of 800,000 individuals who have secured benefit. It is not out of place at this moment, considering the kind of criticism that was made against this Act—that it might be made on the one side a perquisite of trade unionism, and on the other, as others said, that it would be am appendage of the Employers' Associations—that this interesting figure should be given. Seventy per cent. of the claims made and paid have been made direct by the unemployed workmen themselves, and 30 per cent. only have been made on behalf of workmen through the associations. If there were any idea of any intention either for employers or trade unions to capture the machinery of this Act for any particular purpose those figures contradict any such assumption. It is interesting also to know that 26 per cent. of the unemployment fell within the waiting week; 57 per cent. of the unemployment under this Act was covered by benefits received; 14 per cent. was excluded by various disqualifications; and 3 per cent. only represents exhausted benefit, or where the period of unemployment during the year was beyond the stated amount.
The financial position generally is very favourable indeed, mainly because we have had not only a year of very good trade, but two or three years of very good trade, and I am pleased to say that so far as one can gather there is no prospect of a very depressed year of trade ahead. Another effect which some people apprehended from this Act has not happened. Compulsory insurance, as embodied in this Act, has strengthened and not weakened the voluntary insurance amongst workmen's associations. That is demonstrated by a remarkable figure. Twenty-one trade unions—and I would like the hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. C. Duncan) to follow me on this point, because it deals with a class of labour which, as a skilled engineer, he has helped to organise—with 86,000 membership in insured trades, have begun to make provisions for unemployed benefit which they had not contemplated doing before the Act was instituted. Other associations who, before this Act was passed, made provision for unemployed benefit, have enormously increased their membership since the Act has been in operation, not altogether due, perhaps, to this Act, but partly due to good trade, I am glad to say, and due to a demand above all, on the part of workmen, for increased organisation to maintain their economic position. There is the fact that unskilled labourers, so-called, who before this Act took no part in the organisation for unemployed benefit are now taking that action, Skilled artisans, who did provide unemployed benefit, are taking wider action since the Act than previously. We have this remarkable fact 337 associations, with 1,164,000 members, have been admitted as entitled to claim State contributions, and of these more than half are at present outside the present insured trades. I give those figures because the country is entitled to know what the essential features of these facts are as revealed by eighteen months' administration. It is too soon to cal- culate the effect of this Act on distress, on human misery, on pauperism and poverty springing from lack of work, because we shall want something like worse trade, which I hope we may not get, to test the extent to which, among the poorer and unskilled labourers, this Act has directly affected human misery and poverty, and all the incidents of unemployment which it was passed to provide against.
There is no question, in my opinion, that the dying down of the demands for charitable palliatives for want of employment, and disbelief in relief works and similar agencies, and a greater concentration in the skilled and unskilled trades for meeting unemployment have been stimulated by the working of this Act. I hope that the effect of this Act will be to regularise labour and diminish the necessity for unemployed insurance, and not, by insurance, to place a premium upon disorganisation and irregularity. My own view is, taking a survey of the eighteen months that this Act has been in operation, its effect, on the whole, has been good indeed. The hon. Member for East Somerset, as a large employer of labour, necessarily—and of that I do not complain—made one or two criticisms of the Labour Members below the Gangway, but he made, I thought, a not too generous reference to the effect of this Act in inducing men, to use his own language, to be liars, hypocrites, and malingerers. I think, speaking generally, that that cannot be said to be either the direct or indirect effect of this particular Act. Generous as he is, and opposed as he sometimes is to workmen's organisations, I sincerely trust he will see the disadvantage of continuing, I will not say his uncharitable, but his not too generous, interpretation of an Act which just before he sat down he said had, after all, some bad in it, but was capable of much improvement. I prefer to judge the hon. Member on his last note rather than on his first impeachment, and if it is not too late for me to snatch him as a brand from the burning and to convert him as favourable to trade unions in the future, seeing that he blessed two-thirds of the Insurance Act, I shall be only too pleased to throw out a life-line and pull him ashore. But I must say that the absence of adverse criticism and general support, even by employers, is, on the whole, very satisfactory evidence of the working of this Act.
I now come to the Motion before the House, and to the practical criticisms that have been offered. In the first place, my hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Henderson) referred to casual workers. For the moment it is difficult for us to say that the Order under which the Board of Trade can extend trades will come into operation so far as certain forms of casual workers are concerned. But we are sympathetic in that direction, and I sincerely trust that in this matter we shall have the assistance of employers in the casual labour trades, and, above all, of the trades union and labour leaders and others interested in dock, riverside, and other casual labour. I hope that they will begin as rapidly as possible a development of the Liverpool experiment, which I trust may soon he applied in nearly all districts where work similar to that carried on at Liverpool is conducted. In that direction the Board of Trade will do everything it possibly can to help. My hon. Friend gave an instance of a particular trade in which he said it frequently happened that the majority of the men, owing to rather minute differentiations and grades of trade, thought themselves under the Act when really they were not. He instanced the steel workers, where 29,000 men were outside the Act and 1,000 were in, and he suggested that we should concentrate upon this. In many of the Orders we contemplate issuing we hope to be able to deal with this aspect of the question in a way that will give satisfaction.
The whole of the iron and steel workers are outside the Act. My hon. Friend was talking about the steel smelters.
I know; but it applies not only to the iron and steel trades and smelters, but to other trades as well. It inflicts a hardship upon a number of men, and whether they be smelters or other sections of iron and steel workers, it is our business, if there is a grievance, to try and find a remedy for it. My hon. Friend said there were certain sections of the building trade in an unsatisfactory position. That is true. He gives instances of anomalies. We admit them, and we are now doing our best to meet cases such as where men who are engaged in building a wall for a new house or a new dock when their work is completed on the Saturday, and they start repairing a dock wall or some work of construction on the following Monday, they find themselves to be outside the Act in which they were while engaged on similar work only a few days before. We have decided to alter that, and by means of an Order to cover practically all the difficulties raised by that particular anomaly. This may bring us some 50,000 or 60,000 men who do not now come under the Act.
Then my hon. Friend suggested that payments to trades unions should be taken as receipts and as guarantees for money paid. Several cases were given to the House by the hon. Member for the Westhoughton Division of Lancashire. We admit the necessity in all these cases of making for greater simplicity and, above all, for greater promptness in settlement, consistently with clear accountancy. We have done our best to carry out the suggestions in this direction of hon. Members below the Gangway. I agree with the hon. Member for Barnard Castle that it is too much to ask a branch secretary, who is an engineer, a moulder, or a bricklayer, who has been working for eight, ten or twelve hours a day, to pass an examination in what one would term "clear accountancy." But we have to understand that a member of a trades union or friendly society is not elected to be a branch secretary, because he has that knowledge of accounts which some bogus company promoters show too frequently, with not half the honesty of the branch secretary, who may be very bad at totting up figures, but who is much better in accounting to his members for money actually received and actually expended. Still, I think hon. Members have made out a case in which there is a greater need for simplicity and promptness in helping men of this particular type to more easily discharge the duties they have undertaken. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle raised the question of the one-sixth. We have decided in an amending Bill we intend to introduce this Session, which I sincerely trust will pass into law, because this is relatively a non-controversial question, to deal with that point. My hon. Friend also raised the question of Regulations. Of course, there have been too many Regulations for many Acts of Parliament, but when the House of Commons embarks, as the House of Commons did embark, upon a great experiment of this character, it can only be conducted by changes being made to meet emergencies and difficulties as they arise, and it stood to reason, unless we were willing to allow grievances to remain unredressed, that there had to be a large number of Regulations at the inception of this Act, which I trust time and experience will prove can be diminished in number, simplified in phraseology and made more clear and shorter for the reasonable object to be obtained.
The next point raised was that in the case of men under the Act the decision or appeal has been too slow. We agree, and we are taking steps to accelerate it and to do it as quickly as is consistent with justice to the Act, the contributors and the man himself who appeals. Another point raised was in regard to employers entering on the cards certain statements prejudicial to the workmen. Here again it is well that we should face the fact that there is, and always must be, an inherent disability in any form of compulsory insurance where the employer makes a contribution, where the workman makes a contribution, and where the State makes a contribution. You must either have a name, which we have not in this case, or a name plus an address, or you must have a number. You have got to bring the book and the money it carries with it home to some person who can be identified, either by name or number. That inherent disability operates on both sides, and we ought to devise means by which neither employer nor workman shall be allowed to use the unemployment book and the insurance card either as a black list on the one side, or as an undesirable certificate of the wrong sort of character on the other. To such points as these we are directing our attention. The hon. Member for Barnard Castle said that an employer ought not to be allowed to prejudice a workman who works sixty hours in four days and to make him out to the next employer as a person who is much worse than a man who works six days of eight or nine hours. That is one of those practical criticisms to which we are bending our energy in order to avoid it as quickly as we possibly can.
10.0 P.M.
Then the hon. Member referred to low-paid workers. That, of course, as he knows, is a very difficult question, and that we are now considering. The hon. Member also raised what I consider is a practical point upon which I trust employers and workmen will agree, that is, the branch secretary. He is known everywhere, whether he is an Oddfellow, a Forester, or a trade unionist. He fulfils a very useful function in working-class society. As a rule he is overworked, and be is generally abused. When he deserves it he gets very little gratitude, and when he expects gratitude he generally gets abuse. This particular man has no right to be handicapped by the disability to which my hon. Friend referred. Where you have a branch secretary who looks after the unemployment benefit of from 300 to 1,000 persons, whether they be members of a trade union or a friendly society, if he happens to be out of work, he receives from 7s. to 8s. for his secretarial duties That makes his remuneration above the amount that entitles him to the unemployment benefit. He ought not to be handicapped by this fact. We think that in this non-competitive, non-insurable, auxiliary work, which he is doing very usefully by organising the unemployment benefit for 300 or 400, or, in some cases, 1,000 men, he ought not to be penalised as he now is. We propose to take steps by means of which this penalisation shall cease. The last point raised by the hon. Member for Barnard Castle was that of an inquiry into the position of men affected by a labour strike or dispute. The point raised by my hon. Friend could really be met if the man promptly applied to the Umpire and the Referee, which in many cases he does not do now. I should like to point out to the hon. Member for the Westhoughton Division that when a man can make an appeal and cares to make an appeal, it is the duty and business of the Labour Exchange superintendent to tell him at the moment that he is able to make an appeal, and he ought to help, as he should help, the workmen in that direction.
What can be done to meet several of the points raised by the hon. Member for the Westhoughton Division? He read a letter from the secretary of a trade union, and complained of the use of the character form when the Board of Trade sent it on. He said that certain particulars were asked for of a man who claimed unemployment benefit. I can only say that none knows better than my hon. Friend himself that the trade unions themselves have to adopt very drastic regulations and take very serious steps if a man who is not entitled to unemployment benefit tries to get it. It seems to me that what in the trade unions is a duty and a necessity should not be regarded in the State as a crime. If in the stopping of malingering or the unjust appropriation of funds contributed by his fellow workmen, the State and the employers, unfairness is exercised towards a man and injustice is done, as was done obviously in the case of a man who had thirteen years' continuous labour, my answer to the hon. Member is that if that man felt, as he did feel, a grievance, it should be remedied and the injustice removed. I hope that the instance he has brought to my notice will be a means of preventing the recurrence of a similar case. I may at this point say that with 2,250,000 workmen holding books and with £800,000 dispensed from the Unemployment. Fund in benefit refunds and administration during last year, it is very remarkable we have had so few grievances produced. There are not thousands of cases of these injustices. I am informed that they do not run into hundreds, and by the time we have improved the Regulations, simplified the procedure, improved the audit, and removed a number of things that we are in the process of doing, I hope we shall be able to say that the hundreds will be reduced to dozens.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many cases clerks in the Labour Exchanges have brought pressure upon the members of trades unions not to appeal?
I think that is due to some misundersanding. If that be so, I will see that the clerks and officials of the Labour Exchanges are not under any misapprehension of what their duties are. The hon. Member asked that the question of audit should be simplified. We agree. The audit might be made more simple than it now is. The returns could also be improved, and the mode of settling claims on appeals by both branches of officials and workmen should be considerably simplified. The hon. Member wants to know whether it is not possible for some form of inquiry to be instituted. That can be answered in several ways. In my judgment, the demand for an inquiry, if it is to be a long, formal, ceremonial investigation of many grievances, which I should prefer to deal with from hour to hour and day to day, brought to me both by employers and workmen's representatives, instead of securing the object hon. Members have in view will rather defeat it. In our judgment it is not necessary, because there is a continuous practical inquiry now going on which automatically deals with difficulities as they occur, and this is the better way. If a formal inquiry is to be set up it might be used as a medium of delaying the concessions which I promise the House we intend to make. It may interfere with us proceeding with an Amending Bill which will deal, I think, plus the concessions to-night, with nine-tenths of the grievances which have already arisen, and instead of helping to rectify the grievances and defects will probably do more harm than good. This Act was intended for, and was agreed upon practically unanimously by all sides of the House as a medium for coping by insurance with trade depression, with irregularity of work and normal unemployment. It was to deal with want of work due to economic causes only, and it was generally agreed that if the cessation of work was due to a strike or a lock-out, the element of insurance which was instituted in this Act to cope with normal unemployment should be suspended.
No one has asked for the abandonment of that vital and inherent principle in the Insurance Act, but I admit that it is right to say that in the matter of the beginning of disqualification and the cessation of unemployed benefit, it seems to me that there is an opportunity for us to inquire as to whether it would not be possible practically, by agreement of the employer and employed, to collect the evidence which is now coming in, and when that evidence is collected forus to consider whether, if necessary, some other than the form of inquiry which we are willing to undertake would be necessary when the facts are collected. If such form of inquiry was proved to be necessary, I trust that the spirit that we have displayed towards this Resolution tonight, and the sympathy with which we have dealt with the practical claims and demands which have been made upon us, will be a guarantee that when the evidence is collected and the facts are brought before us, and a more formal inquiry than that which I have promised is necessary, I should not hesitate for a moment to give any formal inquiry by means of which alleged grievances can be dealt with and actual grievances can be remedied. But preferably I should like the employers and the employed, when the evidence is got together, to come to some mutual agreement by means of which, through approach' to the Government, one or two of the grievances which have been mentioned to-night could be remedied before the close of this Session. In its broad and general outline and with only the reservation which I have given, we accept the Motion, and I sincerely trust the amicable discussion we have had on this, one of the best instances of social legislation that any country has experienced, will conduce to the extension of the Act to considerably more trades, and ultimately bring within the scope of unemployed benefit millions of casual labourers and other workmen who have not felt the benefit of its advantages, and who seek to have its advantages extended to them, and which it is the duty of the House of Commons to instruct and guide the Department in applying to them the advantages of this Act as soon as wisdom and prudence warrants its extension to other trades.
The right hon. Gentleman, on behalf of the Government, has made an important announcement. He says the Government is prepared to accept the Motion except that part of it which asks for an inquiry into the general administration of the Act. As I understand the right hon. Gentleman, what the Government say is that they are willing to have some inquiry, as long as it is not a formal inquiry, into the provision disqualifying from benefit workmen thrown out of employment by reason of a trade dispute, but he distinctly refused to allow any inquiry into the administration of the Act which would precede further legislation on the matter. If there ever was a time when an inquiry was necessary, it surely is at that time when an experimental Act has been in operation for a year or two years, and the Government of the day is proposing to further extend the provisions of that Act to other trades, and more especially when, as has happened this evening, complaint after complaint on various points of administration has been brought before the Government showing how difficult it will be to extend the Act to trades less organised than those which are now in it! After all, the trades which have been selected for inclusion in the Act in the first instance have been the organised trades. That was deliberately done, because in those trades the administrative difficulties would he far less than if all trades had been included—trades which at present have never been organised. To-night the right hon. Gentleman has suggested that hundreds of thousands—I am not sure he did not say millions—of casual labourers were to be brought into the Act by some amending Bill, which the Government propose to introduce before any inquiry has been instituted into the difficulties which have already been found in the working of the Act, even in regard to the organised trades. I ask the Government to consider how much more difficult it will be to extend the provisions of this Act to the unorganised trades when already we know the difficulties which have been met with in the organised trades. The hon. Member (Mr. Henderson) asked for an extension of the Act, but he took very great care not to say to-what, trades be desired it extended. He said he hoped that a vast number now outside the Act would be brought in, and he stated, further, that the best argument in favour of bringing them in was the fact that at this moment there is in the unemployment fund a surplus of £1,600,000. The President of the Board of Trade o seems to think that also was some argument in favour of extending the Act.
I am sure the hon. Member does not intend to misrepresent me. I did mention the textile trade and the furnishing trade.
I beg the hon. Member's pardon. I did not gather that he limited the extension of the Act to these trades.
Not at all.
The hon. Member mentioned two trades, but beyond these he desires to extend the Act to a vast number of persons unnamed. I would call the hon. Member's attention to, the difficulty which is already experienced. The Umpire has been called upon to give 1,600 or 1,700 decisions as to cases in the o insured trades, but if you are going to extend the Act to a large number of other trades, you will have to get a new set of decisions, because a new set of cases will arise and you will have infinitely more difficulty with respect to questions arising in the unorganised trades. There are 1,500 recorded decisions, but the total number is something like 10,000 according to the report of the Board of Trade. I wish to examine the arguments which have been brought forward in favour of the inclusion of a further number. The argument of the hon. Member was that to-day there was a balance of £1,600,000 in the unemployment fund. I do not know whether he and the. President of the Board of Trade thought that was a surplus over and above the benefits which have been paid out, because it would be misrepresenting the position to put forward that argument. It is a surplus only in the sense that it is the sum left after paying out benefits, but there are six months of extra contributions in that, for a period during which no benefit was paid, so that the surplus does not represent what may be expected to be the real surplus for the organised trades included in the Act. Then the President of the Board of Trade said that 800,000 individuals had claimed and obtained unemployment benefit. I think he must be wrong in his figures. There are only something like 2,250,000 insured at the very most. There are 2,500,000 books out, but there are not more than 2,250,000 insured. The number, 800,000, stated by the right hon. Gentleman as having received benefits is something like 33 per cent. of the whole, and it must be obvious that in these trades the risk of unemployment is nothing like as high as that. I think these were probably the total claims, and not the total individuals.
The hon. Member (Mr. A. Henderson) also based his argument for action now on the statement that the unemployment rate was only 2.6. A rather curious thing arises for consideration here. The annual report that was published—the clever report written by Mr. Beveridge—in connection with unemployment insurance states that the stamps sold do not correspond at all with the number of books issued, or the number of persons said to be insured. After checking the number of stamps sold, as it appears in Report C D 6965, and the figures in the Report of the Accountant and the Auditor-General on the appropriation accounts, it would seem either that the number of "ins" and "outs" under the unemployment scheme is very much higher than anybody anticipated, or else that the number of people actually insured in these trades is very much lower than the President of the Board of Trade and hon. Members have been thinking this evening. This is important, because if the number included in the unemployed insurance is not 2,250,000, but nearer 1,750,000, as would appear from the number of stamps actually sold then the unemployment rate upon which the hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson) relies, is entirely changed, and the percentage is very much higher than he thinks, and the argument which he seeks to base on this consideration is accordingly very much weakened. Every hon. Member who has spoken has clearly made out a case for inquiry.
The right hon. Gentleman has made a speech to-night promising everything. If everything is left to him and his Department all will be all right. His speech tonight reminds me very much of a speech which he made in connection with housing last year. "As soon as the Commissioners come into my Department I will go out." To-day he says, "If you do not have an inquiry better leave it to me, and all will be well. Are there anomalies? Let me remove them. Has the umpire given a decision? I will look after his next decision. Is there anybody in who ought not to be? Leave it to me: all will be well." He has taken very good care to say that; but in no single instance has he told hon. Members how he is going to accomplish what he promises. As soon as he began to get near any statement in the least degree indicating the steps which he was going to take, he went away with another promise on to the next complaint. That is very easy. It almost makes one think that a General Election must he coming—promises flow up so plentifully. But I think that the President ought to make one more promise—that is, not to introduce amending legislation until a proper inquiry has been made into the working of the Act to-day. Because this Act has in it two principles, a compulsory principle as regards certain trades and the subsidising of a voluntary principle as regards other trades. The subsidies given to the voluntary insurance have had the effect, as the right hon. Gentleman has admitted just now, of increasing the voluntary insurance against unemployment; and I believe that it can be increased a great deal more if further subsidies are given on a wide, broad scale. Remember what subsidies are given for compulsory insurance—7s. a week during unemployment, while for voluntary insurance it is only 2s. a week.
It is not a subsidy when a member pays 2½d. per week.
The voluntary side is subsidised to the extent of one-sixth of twelve shillings, or 2s. per week, and the compulsory side is subsidised to the extent of one two-fifths of the seven shillings a week. The voluntary subsidy is not yet as large as the compulsory subsidy, and I think if an inquiry is made into the working of this Act it should also be directed to ascertaining whether it would not be better to extend the voluntary side of the unemployment insurance rather than immediately amending it by sweeping in hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people who have not yet been consulted, and who, at present at any rate, you cannot be sure are going to receive the benefit. I say you cannot be sure, because at present you do not know how many people are on your compulsory side. You are only guessing. You have no definite figures to act upon. One hon. Member said it was two and a half millions, another two and a quarter millions, and the Report of the Board of Trade says the minimum figure is £1,900,000 and the maximum £2,250,000. Even the Board of Trade have to admit a margin of £350,000. While you are in that state of uncertainty, it seems to me the height of folly to attempt to extend the operation of the Act to include others, not less organised than those you have in now, without, at any rate, giving some thought to the possible alternative, which is already growing and increasing under this Act.
The hon. Member is under a delusion if he imagines that the Board of Trade are going to include in this Act hundreds of thousands of men who do not want to be included. The real truth is that a very large number of trade unionists, numbering, no doubt, hundreds of thousands of men, are anxious to be included, and have pressed to be included. Under these circumstances it really becomes the duty of the Board of Trade to try and decide whether it is wise to include them. I do not know how far the Board of Trade feel inclined to go, but I do feel that those trades ought immediately to be included where they are border-line trades. The hon. Member for Barnard Castle made two points with regard to the extension of this Act. The first was an extension which would remove anomalies at present existing. His second point was to include other trades which are anxious to come in. In his opinion, and I think it is the opinion of many other Members of this House, it would be wise to extend the Act to other trades. He would take those borderline trades, which I imagine the President of the Board of Trade would have to deal with first of all. The hon. Member for Colchester said we want to know what those trades are, but I should have thought it was open to everybody to discover the border-line trades which ought to be included. I should put down wood-making, furniture, upholstering, blacksmithing, and some of the metal trades that have been alluded to. It seems to me that we might make a beginning, at all events, by including those trades. That would mean a very large number of men, and at one blow would remove nearly all the anomalies. But I think it is a matter more for the Treasury than the Board of Trade, if the money is to be forthcoming to include all these trade unions that have made application to be taken in. But that is, of course, a financial question; it is not a matter purely for the Board of Trade. I hope that will be considered as speedily as possible, because I am certain that the result of the experiment which has already been made within the last eighteen months has proved quite conclusively that the Act is a beneficial and workable measure. We shall not get into financial difficulties with, it, and the working classes who have already reaped the benefit of it are desirous to see it further extended. I do not wish to refer to the trade dispute question, because for the life of me I do not know what to say. I cannot conceive how it is really possible to pay unemployed pay to locked-out men. I wish it were possible, but under this Act I do not see that it is possible. If you once began, say, with the building trade of London and pay unemployed benefit to all those who are locked out in the building trade, and the dispute extended not only to certain portions of the building trade, but to all the building in London and then outside London, which is conceivable, just conceivable—I mean some of the employers have been threatening they will lock out the men outside London—what will happen to the funds? They certainly would not be adequate to meet the tremendous demand of the claims made upon them.
I think, if anything is done in that direction, it must be in separate insurance of a different kind, and it should be insurance which is sufficient and adequate to meet the claims made upon the fund by a huge lock-out or strike. As to the point of avoidable delay, which has been made by nearly all the speakers, I wish to thank the President of the Board of Trade for having speedy redress. I think all it wants is to worry the officers a little better. Civil servants are not immaculate. I never heard of any Government Department that was so, or anybody in any Government Department, and I never heard of any Member of Parliament that was for that matter, but I think we must have some little regard for the immense amount of work that has had to be done during the eighteen months of this experiment. I do not think you can expect an Act of Parliament to get into working order all at once. The same applies to the sickness side. Those who criticise it, apart from the defects in the Act itself, are criticising the administration, but they do not really know the difficulties of administration of even so small a portion of the Act as this compared with the other part, and you must have a lot of defects to complain of. Considering the short time the Act has been in operation, I can honestly say I think the Board of Trade and the Labour Exchanges in the unemployed insurance department have done remarkably well. I thank the President of the Board of Trade for all he has promised to-night, and I would urge him to put the promises into effect as speedily as possible.
The House will be grateful to the President of the Board of Trade for the statement that he has made to-night, and I hope very much that he will see that social necessity compels a considerable extension of this Act at a very early date. We have, after all, to recognise that those who are not at present insured have still to pay their share o of the State insurance. They have a very good claim, and I think if they wish to come in under the unemployed portion of the Insurance Act they should be allowed to do so. I feel specially it must be the desire of the President of the Board of Trade, who has taken a very strong line in opposing, for instance, the Right-to-Work Bill, and who, in this House and outside, has spoken very strongly against relief works at time of unemployment, to see that at a time of prosperity it is made possible to bring into insurance a large number of men who desire it at the present time. I hope that the suggestion that has been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Alden) not only to bring in the border trades but as well the trade unions which are asking for this insurance at the present time will be accepted. I think that the Board of Trade and the officials who have steered this Act, are to be congratulated on the success which has attended their efforts. The criticisms made to-night are, after all, criticisms of detail, and I am perfectly certain that with good will the grounds of those criticisms can be removed. There is no doubt, despite what the hon. Member for Colchester said, that the majority of employers are beginning to recognise that it is good for them to have their people insured at times of unemployment. The more employers try to organise their business, the more important will they feel it is to have their people in a state of physical efficiency when they resume work after a period of unemployment. I hope the President of the Board of Trade, who knows how these things work, will consider whether the time has not arrived, or will not arrive shortly, when the actual amount of money given should be increased. Seven shillings a week is not an adequate sum for a man when out of employment, and we who are so lavish in spending money on national defence ought to realise that it is true defence for the State, when men are out of work, to take its proper share in seeing that they are preserved in a proper state of efficiency and comfort. I hope that the President will be able speedily to carry out his promises, for I believe they will have a very important effect in the country in helping those who are unemployed.
Those who have followed the Debate, and all who have heard the speech of the right hon. Gentleman will, I think, agree that an extremely useful purpose has been served by the Motion of my hon. Friend. The hon. Member for Colchester must be under some misapprehension in view of his references to the request in the Resolution for an inquiry. It is true that inquiry is asked for. Inquiry would be necessary if the facts we have submitted to the House were disputed. But the facts are not disputed. There is universal acceptance of the complaints that have been lodged. The grievances are beyond dispute. They depend solely on points of administration. No fresh law, no amending Act is in any degree necessary to accomplish any of the proposals submitted to the House to-night. One of the Clauses in the Act under review specifically provides for the extension of the Act to other trades, if and when the particular Department considers it is timely and proper so to extend it. I think, however, that a few of the criticisms of the hon. Member for Colchester were properly levelled at the form of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Burns). I would like to express my surprise at a Minister so industrious and so communicative as the right hon. Gentleman is not taking the House a little more into his confidence in respect of how, and even when, he is to give effect to the assurances that were so welcome to all who heard them. Not that I doubt his word for a moment; but I can assure him that his promises would be more cheerful to the larger numbers whom we represent if we could have something more specific in regard to the manner in which these promises are to be met. I particularly want to draw attention to what is to me the great omission of his speech, and that is the absence of any assurance in regard to the trade unions receiving some payment for this State service which they are discharging. I would draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that in the summer of last year his predecessor did, in general terms, give assurances to the trade unions that in due course provision would be made whereby expenses like those incurred in postage, stationery, and other lesser forms of expenditure would be met. These expenses are comparatively trifling compared with the heavy administrative and executive charges which fall upon these organisations which are doing this national service. If it is not too late tonight I think the House would like to hear something upon that very material point—
Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me. I did omit to make reference to that particular point, for, by the amending Bill, or in other way, that, and one or two other points I did not refer to, will be dealt with.
I am very pleased to hear that statement. As I was about to say, it should be recognised by the House, and by this State Department, that those trade unions do not benefit by this labour. It is not distinctly trade union work. It is really friendly society work. It belongs to that larger sphere of social service which the community itself should take in hand. In so far as we take it in hand, we are entitled to ask the State reasonably to cover expenses. Might I draw attention also a little further to that point which is left rather incomplete with regard to the position of the man who has some kind of supplementary duty to perform in addition to his ordinary service, and who, on that account, has been disqualified from his right to benefit. I do not quite understand the assurance given by the right hon. Gentleman on that point. I would like to ask whether it is intended that in the case where the man's supplementary earnings may exceed the unemployment benefit he is not to have the unemployment benefit? That silence is perhaps an important reason why I should try to illustrate these particular cases. I give cases in my own personal knowledge of men situated in this way. They are working fifty-three or fifty-four hours a week; they are in the engineering trade; they had to strike quite recently in order to secure a minimum wage of 20s. per week. They are secretaries of their branches; they represent hundreds of members, and by virtue of the fact that they act for their unions they receive at the end of a quarter an amount equal to 10s. per week. That makes their weekly income 30s. They work hard for that both in the workshop and in the trade unions, and my argument is that men so situated and compelled to pay twopence per week for insurance in connection with engineering employment should not be deprived of the rates of benefit when thrown out of work merely because they discharge additional services, working at night, to try and make up something like a living wage.
I therefore press upon the right hon. Gentleman the extreme necessity and the mere justice of meeting cases of that kind, and not depriving any man of the benefits on that ground. I do not feel that the case of men who have to stop work, owing to trade disputes, has been adequately met. It is true that the Act at present provides against men receiving benefits when out of work through a strike or lock-out, but we never assented to that position. Our claim during the time the Act was under consideration was, and now is, that the men who were stopped through no fault of their own, who were non-combatants in any dispute, whether strike or lock-out, and who did not voluntarily put themselves upon the streets, these men have a just claim on the ground of non-employment from causes over which they have no control. There are men whose work is so constant and regularised that perhaps in a lifetime they would not be subject to unemployment except through a trade dispute. These men through a lifetime are compelled to pay for unemployment benefit and they would have no chance of getting benefit on the only occasion they might have to stop work. That is an unfair position in which to place these men. On the other side of the House hon. Members talk of individual liberty when we make our complaints on points of administration by allusion to the forms that have to be filled in and the red-tape that has to be faced in connection with almost every Department of the State. Our answer to that is this: These employers themselves have set a bad example. Even the forms that have to be filled in even in connection with this Act are less complicated and less unpleasant than many of the forms that employers submit to the workmen. If the State is to be asked to clean its slate in this regard employers might set them a better example by withdrawing these obnoxious and sometimes incriminating and certainly discriminating agreements submitted to men who are endeavouring to obtain the ordinary means of life.
The President of the Board of Trade has given us many welcome assurances, and on that account, for my part, although I am not empowered or authorised to say so, I see no necessity of pressing this Motion to a Division. I understand the right hon. Gentleman accepts the Motion, but how far can we be assured that in amending these administrative difficulties, and in carrying out the assurances given, organised labour will be fairly taken into his confidence? In this regard we have a right to appeal in the name of organised labour because the trade unions are the administrative channels of this part of the Act, and it will not do for State officials to give effect to these assurances by ignoring the closer personal knowledge which many of us justly claim to have because of our immediate contact with these administrative difficulties. The right hon. Gentleman should not conclude, as I rather thought he did, that because we want the Act extended, and want other people to enjoy the supposed benefits the Act confers, that there are not many causes for grievances. There is a great deal of complaint arising from very just causes, and if those who have to give effect to these assurances will take an early opportunity of meeting those who have a knowledge of the grievances, I am certain that, in the course of a very months, the whole of the difficulty could be removed, and a larger number of the working classes admitted to the benefit of the Act.
According to hon. Members who have spoken, Part II. of the Insurance Act has been proved by those who come under it to have conferred the benefits it was intended to bestow. My experience in an industrial constituency rather leads me to that conclusion. But it points the moral that Part II. of the Act, which was very carefully considered, has won its way to acceptance, so far as it has been accepted, because of the care with which it was considered before it was passed. If half the care that was devoted to Part II. had been devoted to Part I., we should have had a good deal less discussion in this House about the Insurance Act and its effect upon the people of this country. The President of the Board of Trade, I understand, has promised a great many things. He seems to be like a godfather, taking upon himself responsibilities for the-future which he cannot guarantee. It is curious that this anxiety to extend the Act, or promise its extension, should take place on this particular date. I say this with a certain amount of feeling, because when the original Bill was under consideration I put down an Amendment to provide that the casual labourers should be considered in connection with Part II of the Bill. An assurance was given me-across the floor of the House that the case of the casual labourers would be considered, but that assurance went the way of other assurances from the same quarter, and it was not worth the paper it was written on, because the casual labourer's case was never considered under the Act.
As the representative of a constituency where casual labour is a large factor in the life of the people, I have reason to complain that the casual labourers do not receive due justice in connection with Part II. of the Act. That was in 1911. Now we are in 1914, measurably nearer the time when Parliament ceases to be, and we cannot but think that may have something to do with the genial promises which are now forthcoming in such abundance. May I ask what has fallen from the hon. Member (Mr. Worthington-Evans) with regard to the necessity for caution? Personally, I am entirely in favour of extending the operation of Part II., and especially the voluntary part of Part II., as widely as circumstances and experience will permit. The only thing I am not quite certain of is whether at this particular moment we have got far enough in the experience of this very novel and far-reaching legislation to know whether the time has come for extension. May I quote the parallel of the Workmen's Compensation Act? The monumental change in the law affecting industry in this country was first made by Mr. Chamberlain in 1897. That Act only extended, just as Part II. of the Insurance Act only extends, to a limited number of artisans in the country, roughly to about 7,000,000 out of 13,000,000. The definition of the 7,000,000 to be touched was naturally a difficult matter. Cases arose in the Courts, and there were a number of decisions given. A great body of experience was secured, and in 1906 the Act was consolidated and extended to practically all the industries of the country.
Nine years were required before the extension of the Act was made. It is true that in the interval partial extensions had been made to one or two particular classes, but the general extension did not take place for nine years. There were differences in that case which made extension easier than in the present case. For instance, there was no general body of friendly society associations to be affected, and, in addition, there were, in the case of workmen's compensation, more or less accurate figures on which you could base calculations. In this case we admittedly are working more or less in the dark. We have got no accurate data on which to proceed, and both those facts, to my mind, indicate that if nine years were required before the final extension in the case of workmen's compensation, we shall hardly be justified in the present case in making a general extension at the end of one or two years. It is true, as suggested on the other side, that there is a considerable surplus at the moment, but that surplus is subject to liabilities under the Act. It is not an absolute surplus. In addition, we have been enjoying for some three or four years a time of unexampled good trade. Other countries have enjoyed it even to a longer extent. In view of both those facts, I venture to suggest inquiry is necessary before any large extension of the Act takes place.
The Resolution, I am sure, is very timely, although the subject is so vast and important—
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.
Question put accordingly, and agreed to.
Resolved, "That, in the opinion of this House, the provisions of Part II. of the National Insurance Act, 1911, should be extended to workmen in certain other trades in order that the scheme of Unemployment Insurance might more adequately cope with any increase in unemployment; that the scheme should be amended so as to remove existing anomalies and give associations of workmen administering it more financial assistance; and that an inquiry should be held into the general administration of Part II. of the Act, particularly of the provision disqualifying from benefit workmen thrown out of employment by reason of a trade dispute."
The remaining Orders of the Day were read, and postponed.
Land Purchase (Ireland)
I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
I regret the Chief Secretary is not present, although he was given notice yesterday that a question was to be raised as to his refusal to give information to this House with reference to the Chapman estate on the plea that it was not advisable in the public interest. Might one ask in whose interests it was not advisable? Was it in the interest of the vendor or of the ranchers or of the Estates Commissioners? I thought it was in their interest that the Chief Secretary conveyed the impression that it was his concern for the landlords, and not for the people on this congested estate, that he ventured to say he had no authority for any of these people, and therefore he withheld information which vitally concerns their future. Full light, full publicity, and full exposure of anything deserving of exposure—these are the only forces which will give these people hope, and full publicity can do no harm to a just cause—
Notice taken that forty Members were not present. House counted, and forty Members not being present,
The House was adjourned at Eight minutes after Eleven o'clock, till to-morrow (Wednesday).