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Commons Chamber

Volume 59: debated on Thursday 5 March 1914

House of Commons

Thursday, March 5, 1914

Private Business

Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report train one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Isle of Thanet Gas Bill,

Ordered, That the Bill be committed.

Cavan and Leitrim Railway Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 2nd April.

Market Rasen Water Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Monday next.

Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907

Copies presented of Orders numbered D. I. P. 70–81, respectively, issued during February, 1914, declaring certain areas described in the Schedules thereto to be infected with wart disease of potatoes and to be infected areas for the purpose of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company (Patents)

Return presented relative thereto [ordered 14th August, 1913; Mr. Fred Hall ( Dulwich )]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Shops Act, 1912

Copy presented of Order by the Secretary for Scotland, dated 4th March, 1914, affecting certain Shops in the burgh of Glasgow [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Message from the Lords

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the Money-lenders Acts, 1900 and 1911." [Money-lenders Bill [Lords.]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Scottish Insurance Companies (Superannuation Fund)." [Scottish Insurance Companies (Superannuation Fund) Order Confirmation Bill [Lords.]

SCOTTISH INSURANCE COMPANIES (SUPERANNUATION FUND) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [Lords]

Ordered (under Section 7 of The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) to be considered To-morrow.

Publications and Debates. Reports

Ordered, That Mr. Macmaster be discharged from the Select Committee on Publications and Debates Reports.

Ordered, That Mr. Malcolm be added to the Committee.—[ Mr. Illingworth. ]

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 8) (KINGSTOWN) BILL

I beg to move, "That it be an instruction to the Committee on the Bill to insert a Clause providing for the transfer of the undertaking to the Urban District Council of Kingstown within such period and on such terms and conditions as may be approved by the Board of Trade."—[ By Order. ]

Before the question is put, Mr. Speaker, there is a point on which I think we should obtain a ruling from the Chair. This Bill last Session came forward, and upon an undertaking given to the Chairman, a Standing Order was passed, as I understand, to put the Bill in the same position this year as it occupied last year. It has gone through all its stages in the House of Lords, and has been read a second time in this House. The hon. Gentleman now desires to move an Instruction which would, as I understand it, have the effect of turning the Bill into a public Bill. The Kingstown Council having petitioned against this Bill and allowed its own Order to lapse on two occasions, and also those powers which it had received from the Board of Trade to lapse on two occasions, the hon. Gentleman now desires that this Motion shall be passed by this House for a direction to the Select Committee that it shall insert these particular powers conferring upon the local authority special powers, without any notice whatsoever, and although the Bill has passed all its stages in the Lords and passed the Second Reading in this House. Under the circumstances I have stated, I ask whether it is in order, in regard to a Bill affected in this way by the Standing Orders, to move this Motion, and, in any event, whether the putting down of this Motion should be allowed to obstruct the hearing of the Bill before the Select Committee.

The putting down of this Motion cannot prevent the Bill pursuing its ordinary course. I am not at this moment in a position to deal with the point raised by the hon. and learned Member, and perhaps the better way would be to take objection now to this Instruction being proceeded with, and then it would have to come up in the ordinary course for discussion at a Quarter past Eight o'clock, and by that time I will have mastered the facts which are not now present to my mind.

Very well, Sir; it is quite possible some arrangement may be come to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Portuguese West Africa (Rev. Mr. Bowskill's Arrest)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, according to information in possession of His Majesty's Government, the Portuguese official responsible for causing the rebellion by illegal practices was merely dismissed, whilst the Reverend Mr. Bowskill, who secured the withdrawal of forces and prevented bloodshed, was arrested?

As a result of the disturbances in San Salvador in December last the Portuguese Secretary of the Administration of Portuguese Congo was dismissed. I am not yet aware of the circumstances in which Mr. Bowskill was recently arrested, or what was the nature of the arrest.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further information with reference to the arrest of the Rev. Mr. Bowskill?

The situation is as follows: The Acting British Consul at Boma has been sent to the spot, and is presumably there now. The British Consul at Loanda is in communication with the Portuguese Governor-General. The Portuguese Governor-General has sent instructions to the Portuguese Governor at San Salvador that Mr. Bowskill is to be released if possible, and that the Governor will be held responsible if he is detained. The Governor-General had expected to receive a reply yesterday, but it is supposed that the telegraph has been cut by natives, and I have not yet received the information expected from him.

I do not know, and I am not sure that the Portuguese Government themselves are even certain about the nature of the arrest and whether he is really arrested on a charge or simply detained. I have sent the Acting-Consul from Boma to the spot, and the British Consul at Loanda is in communication with the Portuguese Governor-General to get this information, as I want to get to the bottom of it as soon as possible.

Is there telegraphic communication between the Consul at Boma and the Foreign Office, or has it been cut?

There would be from Boma, which is two days' journey from San Salvador, to which the Acting-Consul has gone from Boma, and until he returns, or sends someone back, he cannot actually telegraph from the spot.

Turkey

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information as to the agree- ment recently concluded between Messrs. Armstrong, or an allied company, and the Turkish Government for the construction of a naval dockyard; and whether this agreement was concluded with the knowledge, assistance, or consent of His Majesty's Government?

I am informed that the Turkish Government have granted a concession to a combination of the firms of Armstrong and Vickers for the organisation and reconstruction of the existing dockyards at Constantinople. This agreement was the result of private negotiations between the Turkish Government and the firms interested, in which His Majesty's Government had no participation.

May I ask whether it is not in any way a matter of interest to His Majesty's Government that a British company enters into a contract for the increase of armaments of a foreign power?

Of course any large contracts secured by British firms is in a sense a matter of interest to His Majesty's Government. All I mean by this answer is that we do not initiate them, and that we are in no way a party to them. It was not owing to any diplomatic representations or action of ours that the contract was initiated or carried through.

About that I will say that we certainly do nothing to encourage other countries to increase their expenditure upon armaments, but if they, on their own initiative, decide to enter on such expenditure, of course we shall certainly do nothing to discourage contracts with British firms.

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information as to the present position of negotiations with the Ottoman Government on the subject of the reforms in the Asiatic vilayets; and whether such negotiations are concerned merely with the so-called Armenian vilayets or include also the vilayet of Mossoul?

I am informed that the Turkish Government will shortly submit to the Powers a scheme of reforms. I cannot, of course, state in advance what these proposals will be, though as soon as they are received I hope to be able to make a statement about them. I may, however, say that I understand the scheme will con- template the appointment by the Porte of European Inspectors-General with wide powers of administration and control.

Naval Prize Bill

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs if he can yet make any further statement in respect to legislation on the inter-nation prize court, or-other provisions of the Declaration of London; and if he can say if the abandonment of the right of capture of merchant ships at sea would be favourably regarded by the Foreign Office if, as a result of such abandonment, rival sea Powers would agree to an arrest in the growth of armaments?

As regards the first part of the question, His Majesty's Government hope to be in a position to reintroduce the Naval Prize Bill this Session, but I am as yet unable to make any definite statement. With regard to the second part of the question, the position of the Government was fully stated by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary in this House on 1st April last. From this statement the hon. Member will see that His Majesty's Government still adhere to the position as stated in the Report of The Hague Conference of 1907 that they "would be prepared to examine the question of the conclusion of an agreement to abolish the right of capture if such an agreement could promote the reduction of: armaments."

Steamship "Clumberhall."

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs if any endeavour was made by His Majesty's Government to secure the reference to arbitration of the case of the seizure by an Italian warship of the British steamship "Clumberhall," as was done by the French Government in regard to the French mail steamers "Carthage" and "Manouba"; whether His Majesty's Government has received satisfactory evidence that the alleged offence against international law of the captain of the "Clumberhall" was deliberate and of a more serious character than in the case of the "Carthage" and the "Manouba"; and if he will lay upon the Table copies of the communications which have taken place with the Italian Government on the subject?

His Majesty's Government made no endeavour to secure the reference of the "Clumberhall" case to arbitration before its submission to the Prize Court, and their reason for not doing so was explained to the hon. Member in reply to his question of the 19th ultimo. If the hon. Member will refer to the answer then returned to him he will see that His Majesty's Government were not influenced in the course they adopted by any consideration such as that suggested in the second part of the question. After the Prize Court had given an unfavourable decision, His Majesty's Government did, however, urge the Italian Government to submit to arbitration the question of compensation for the unduly long detention of the vessel, but the Italian Government declined to reopen a case which they considered to be closed by the decision of the Prize Court. I do not think it is necessary to lay before the House the text of the communications which have passed with the Italian Government, but I shall be happy to show the hon. Member copies if he so desires.

Is the House to understand that a British steamer in ballast and in distress is not permitted to enter a blockaded port in order that she may be saved?

That is a technical point, and I ask the hon. Member to put a question on the Paper. It is a point of international law on which I will have to be very accurate.

I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question on the adjournment on Thursday next.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if and when the Estates Commissioners intend providing with holdings the evicted tenants on the Lansdowne estate, Queen's County, whose claims are still unsatisfied?

The Estates Commissioners have provided holdings for all the applicants in connection with this estate for whom they have decided to provide holdings.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say on what evidence the Commissioners rejected the application of the other tenants?

It has not been the practice of the Commissioners to state their reasons. They act on their discretion, and they do not wish to state their reasons.

asked why the Estates Commissioners refuse to provide a holding for Thomas Moore, an evicted tenant on the Lansdowne estate, Queen's County, whose claim as representative of his father, James Moore, had been previously recognised and admitted?

The Estates Commissioners inform me that Moore's former holding comprised about forty-three acres at a rent of £22 10s. The Estates Commissioners offered to provide him with a holding of fifty-one acres, subject to a purchase annuity of £23 10s., but he refused to accept their offer, and they decided not to take any further action in his case.

asked how much money has been advanced or sanctioned for the purchase of estates under the Land Purchase (Ireland) Acts up to the 1st of January, 1914; how much further money is represented by pending agreements; the amount of rental thereby dealt with in both cases; what is the average years' purchase so given, or agreed to be given, exclusive of the bonus; and what is the estimate of the unpurchased rental to be dealt with by the new Irish Land Bill throughout the whole of Ireland?

The total amount advanced under the Irish Land Purchase Acts, 1870–1909, up to the 1st January last is £86,004,038, and a sum of £1,491,611 was lodged in cash by the purchasing tenants, making the total purchase-money £87,495,649. The estimated purchase-money of lands, for the sale of which proceedings had been instituted and were pending, on that date is £34,585,230, including lands for the purchase of which the Congested Districts Board were in negotiation, but had not yet acquired. The Estates Commissioners estimate that the purchase money of lands which have not yet, but which may, become the subject of proceedings for sale under the Acts of 1903–1909 will not exceed sixty millions. The rental of the lands sold is not available in all cases, but such particulars as are available are given in the tables relating to the various classes of sales appended to the Annual Reports of the Irish Land Commission and the Estates Commissioners. The hon. Member will find detailed particulars as regards the number of years' purchase under the Acts prior to 1903 in Parliamentary Paper 90 of 1903. The average number of years' purchase of all classes of rents (including judicial, non-judicial, leasehold, and other classes of rents) of holdings vested by the Estates Commissioners in direct sales under the Acts 1903 and 1909 is 22.4 and 20.3 respectively.

asked whether the estate of P. Gun Mahony, Kilmurry, county Kerry, has yet been inspected by the Estates Commissoners; whether arrangements have been made with the landlord for the reinstatement of Mr. Walsh, the evicted tenant; and whether the Estates Commissioners will definitely refuse to sanction the sale if the evicted tenant is not reinstated?

The reply to the first paragraph of the question is in the affirmative. The Estates Commissioners are in communication with the vendor as regards Walsh's former holding and other matters. They are not prepared to give any assurance of the nature asked for in the concluding portion of the question.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will ascertain and state under what Act and Section the Estates Commissioners propose to deal with the estate of Lady Chapman, of Killua Castle; whether they will treat it as a congested estate; the number of holdings on the estate now derelict in consequence of congestion; the number which do not comprise any land; the number consisting of less than half an acre each; the total number congested within the meaning of the Land Act of 1909; the number of tenants paying rent out of outdoor relief received from the Poor Law guardians; the number and gross acreage of nonresidential grass farms on the estate; and, this being the only non-residential land in the neighbourhood, whether it all will he applied to the relief of the congestion on the estate?

This estate is the subject of proceedings under Section 6 of the Irish Land Act, 1903. It does not appear to be a "congested estate" within the meaning of that Section as amended by the Act of 1909. The village of Clonmellon, which is situate on the property, includes some seventy holdings of less than half an acre which are not agricultural holdings. On the agricultural portion of the estate there appears to be fifty-four holdings of a tenement valuation less than £7. I have no information as to the manner in which poor relief afforded to people in the district is expended by them, and the Local Government Board have no power to insist upon relief being given in kind if the board of guardians do not consider that course desirable. I hope to give the hon. Member later on the information he asks for as to the non-residential grass farms on the estate.

This has been repeatedly on the Paper, and I now ask whether the right hon. Gentleman takes any account of the condition of tenant s who are paying their rents out of Poor Law relief?

As I have already told the hon. Gentleman, neither I nor the Local Government Board can in any way interfere with the board of guardians. If the board of guardians relieve tenants with money it is beyond the power of humanity to prevent those tenants, if they are so minded, disposing of a portion of that money in payment of rent. All that the Local Government Board can do is to give advice, but they cannot interfere with the board of guardians if they choose to act in that way.

The right hon. Gentleman misconceives the question altogether. Do the Estates Commissioners, not the Local Government Board, or do they not, consider tenants congested who have to pay their rent out of Poor Law relief?

I have no doubt if the fact be brought home to the minds of the Estates Commissioners that Poor Law relief went in payment of rent it would be taken into account.

asked whether the Land Commission have inquired into the damage done on the lands of Douglas Killorglin, county Kerry, by recent floods; whether it was agreed on purchase that the banks surrouding these lands should be maintained as a necessary condition of the payment of the annuity; whether, in the recent flooding, damage was done which cannot be repaired for more than twelve months; and whether, under the circum stances, steps will be taken to recover from the landlord compensation for the losses the tenants have suffered?

The answer to the first paragraph of the question is in the affirmative. On the sale of these lands in 1886 the Land Commission required the entire embankment to be put into a state of thorough repair by the vendor, which was done. In addition a sum of £500 was provided out of the purchase money as a guarantee for the future maintenance of the embankment, which had previously been maintained at the expense of the estate. During the past year serious damage was done to the embankment, and the attention of the vendors was called to the matter, and they were required by the Commissioners to put the whole hank in order. The Commissioners have recently been informed that the embankment will be immediately put into thorough repair by the estate, and it is expected that the work will be commenced at once and continued until completed, and that it will not take more than about four months. Some of the tenants whose holdings were purchased under the Ashbourne Act allowed their instalments to fall into arrear last year owing to the damage done to their holdings through flooding. The Commissioners have recently obtained decrees in these cases, but in the circumstances have not yet proceeded further. The Land Commission cannot take the steps suggested in the final paragraph of the question.

asked whether a family named Wilkinson, on Sir John Dillon's estate in the county of Meath, have signed an agreement to purchase the farm in which they live in three separate lots; what is the acreage of the farm; have the Commissioners satisfied themselves that this farm consists of three genuine holdings by examining the rent receipts of the parties, and what is the oldest date of such separate receipts, if any, and can they be examined by the hon. Member for South Meath; and have the Commissioners sanctioned the purchase of the farm by these parties?

The Estates Commissioners inform me that in connection with the proceedings for the sale of this estate to the tenants under the Irish Land Act, 1903, three tenants named Wilkinson signed agreements to purchase their holdings, comprising in all 727 acres. One of the holdings is held under lease and the others under judicial rents. The estate Las not yet been inspected, and the advances applied for have not yet been made. The Commissioners are not in a position to make any statement with regard to the other matters referred to in the question.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Duke estate, situate in the Drumfin electoral division, Sligo Union, has been purchased by the Congested Districts Board; whether the maps and other necessary documents have been lodged since May, 1913; and, if so, can he state the cause of the delay in completing the sale?

The Congested Districts Board have recently decided to issue an offer for the purchase of this estate. The maps and documents were lodged in May, 1913, as stated, but there has been no avoidable delay in the matter.

asked what progress has been made towards the acquirement and sub-division of the untenanted lands of Clonfin, on the estate of J. E. Thompson, in North Longford; whether these lands have yet been acquired by the Commissioners; if not, why this has not been done; whether he is aware that the owner is most willing to facilitate the transfer; and can he indicate an approximate date when this matter will be finally dealt with?

The Estates Commissioners have made a proposal for the purchase of this estate, which has been accepted by the owner. The vendor is not yet in a position to give the Commissioners clear possession of the lands which they propose to divide, but he is taking all necessary steps to enable him to do so.

asked the Chief Secretary if he will state the cause of delay in the completion of the sale to the tenants of the Caldramore estate, county Longford, vested in the Rev. W. B. Lumley, Clontarf, county Dublin, George Hadden, Wexford, and John B. M'Cutchean, as treasurers of the Home Mission Fund of the Methodist Church in Ireland, which was sold to the tenants under an agreement dated 1st May, 1908; whether he is aware that there is no question of title, area, or charges of any land to prevent this sale going through; and will he request the Commissioners to expedite the same in the interests of fair play to these tenants who bought under the impression that the land would be vested' in them inside a year at least?

This estate is the subject of direct sale proceedings under the Irish Land Act, 1903, at prices agreed on between the owner and tenants. It has not yet been reached in order of priority to be dealt with by the Estates Commissioners, and, having regard to its position on the principal register of direct sales (all cash), the Commissioners are not in a position at present to say when it will be dealt with.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Estates Commissioners are prepared to revise the scheme of sub-division of the untenanted lands of Rhyne (Bond estate), made by their inspector, Mr. Gallen, so as to obviate the necessity of evicting Mrs. Doherty from four and a-half acres of marsh land which Mr. Gallen insists on giving to another tenant; whether he will explain why such proceedings were taken when a larger area of land was available without such proceedings being necessary; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his question on this subject on the 24th July last, to which I have nothing to add.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire whether the Estates Commissioners are satisfied with Mr. Gallen's scheme in this case?

asked whether the Estates Commissioners have received a memorial from a number of applicants for a portion of the Gerrard estate at Headstown and Stephenstown, county Meath; and what action they took in the matter?

The reply to the first paragraph of the question is in the affirmative. The owner is not disposed to sell the lands in question, and the Estates Commissioners have decided to take no further action in the matter at present.

further asked whether the Ardee (No. 2) Rural Council have made application to the Estates Commissioners for portion of the untenanted land on the Reynell estate, situate at Lobenstown, county Meath, for the purpose of providing pasturage for the cows of labourers in the district; and with what result?

The answer to the first paragraph of the question is in the affirmative. The estate of F. H. Reynell and others on which the untenanted lands referred to are situate is the subject of a sale by the owner direct to the tenants, and includes about 170 acres of untenanted lands which the owners offer for sale to the Estates Commissioners. It has not yet been reached in order of priority to be dealt with by the Commissioners, and the lands have not, therefore, been acquired by them.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the estate of More O'Farrell, Oristown, county Meath, is yet vested in the tenants, and, if not, will he state the cause of the delay; whether any agreements to purchase have been lodged on behalf of grazing lettings which do not come under the provisions of any of the Land Acts; and, if so, will the Commissioners seek to acquire such holdings as untenanted land for distribution between the small holders?

This estate is being dealt with by the Estates Commissioners in order of priority, and the holdings have not yet been vested in the tenants. No agreements appear to have been lodged in respect of grazing lettings which do not come within the Land Acts. The reply to the concluding paragraph is in the negative.

asked whether any inquiry has been made into the nature of the leases on the estate of Lady Chapman, county Meath; and, if so, are they in the opinion of the Estates Commissioners bonâ fide tenancies, subject to the provisions of various Land Acts?

The Estates Commissioners have made inquiries as regards certain pasture holdings on this estate, and have ascertained that the tenants are yearly tenants, but are restricted to using the lands for pasture. Holdings held under such tenancies are not excluded from the provisions of the Land Purchase Acts.

asked the Chief Secretary whether he can state the cause of the delay in distributing the untenanted lands acquired on the Nicholson estate, Balrath, county Meath, by the Estates Commissioners for the benefit of the uneconomic holdings on the estate; and whether the tenanted holdings will be vested in the occupants this year?

The Estates Commissioners have not acquired the lands referred to. They are in communication with the owner, but they are not in a position at present to state when the holdings will be vested in the purchasing tenants.

asked whether any recent action has been taken to acquire the Hope estate situate at Loughbawn, county Meath?

The Estates Commissioners have furnished the owners with an estimate of the price they would be prepared to offer in this case if formal proceedings for sale to them are instituted under the Land Purchase Acts. Such proceedings have recently been instituted, and the matter will be dealt with in order of priority when the statutory requirements as to title and other matters have been satisfied.

asked whether the Estates Commissioners regard the existence of derelict holdings on an estate as evidence which should affect their treatment of it; whether they make any special inspection of occupied holdings, within the zones and outside the zones, respectively, which do not yield rent and from which the landlord takes, in lieu of rent, poor relief given to the occupants; whether they base their calculation of the price to be advanced on money so paid as on an economic rent, relying upon recovering the annuities from the ratepayers; whether the attention of the Commissioners has been directed to these holdings on Lady Chapman's estate, either on the ground or in a schedule of the estate; and how many of the uneconomic holdings on the estate are within the zones and how many outside the zones?

The existence of derelict holdings on an estate is a factor taken into account by the Estates Commissioners when they are dealing with the property. In the case of direct sales, where the price agreed upon for the purchase of a judicial holding comes within the zonal limits of the Act of 1903, the holding is deemed to be security for the advance applied for, and is not liable to inspection for security. Where the price does not come within the zone limits, the holding is inspected by the Commissioners; but there is no information as to the cases referred to where it is stated poor relief is utilised to pay rent. The Commissioners' estimate of the price which they can give for an estate offered for sale to them is framed after the estate has been inspected by one of their officials, and his report and all the circumstances of the case considered by them. Lady Chapman's estate is the subject of proceedings for sale to the Commissioners, and, if they acquire the property, the prices at which the holdings will be sold to the tenants will be the prices fixed after inspection. As it is proposed to sell the estate to the Commissioners, and not direct by the owner to the tenants, the question of the zones does not arise in connection with this estate.

asked whether the tenants on the estate of Lady Chapman, of Killua, in the village of Clonmellon, will be allowed to participate with the other congested tenants in the non-residential grass land on tile estate available for distribution; and, if not, on what grounds are they to be excluded, there being neither trade nor manufacturing industry in that village?

The Estates Commissioners have not yet acquired the property, and are not, therefore, in a position at present to say how they may allot lands available for distribution if acquired by them, but the point suggested by the hon. Member will not be lost sight of.

asked the Chief Secretary if the sale of the Ballylehane, county Kilkenny, estate of Mr. Darby Scully, Silverfort, Fethard, is yet completed; if so is he aware that congestion exists in the neighbourhood of the estate: and will he see that immediate steps will be taken for its distribution?

This estate has not been offered for sale to the Estates Commissioners. They communicated with the owner as to whether he was willing to negotiate for the sale of the lands referred to, but he refused to sell, and the Commissioners have decided not to take any action in the matter at present.

asked the Chief Secretary if he has received official information to the effect that at a meeting held in Cong on Sunday, the 8th of February last, in reference to the proposed sale of Lord Ardilaun's estate to the Congested Districts Board, speeches of an inflammatory character were delivered, including warnings to Lord Ardilaun's bailiff, who was present, that he might suffer the fate of a former bailiff named Huddy, who had been murdered; whether he is aware that the speakers at the meeting also reminded the audience of the fate of Lord Mountmorres, and suggested that Lord Ardilaun could be similarly dealt with if he stood in their way; that the speakers included Messrs. Moclair and Morris, organisers of the United Irish League, and the hon. Member for South Mayo, who is a member of the Congested Districts Board, and whether any steps have been or will be taken in reference to these proceedings, and particularly in reference to the presence and conduct on the occasion of the hon. Member in question?

I have read a report of the meeting in question. There were a number of speakers, and, save in one instance, no exception could be taken to any of the speeches. In this one case the speaker did indulge in most improper language, but I am not sure that it will bear the construction placed upon it by the hon. Member. This speech was in marked contrast to that delivered by the hon. Member for South Mayo, who referred to the generosity of Lord Ardilaun and his family in removing slum habitations from cities, and appealed to him to show a similar generosity to the occupiers of slum holdings on his property in the country. I am informed that the man who made the objectionable speech is an irresponsible windbag whose words carry no weight, and I think to take further notice of his speech would be a mistake. The conduct of the hon. Member for South Mayo seems open to no question. He informs me that he did not hear the speech I have commented upon.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the speaker whom he describes as an "irresponsible windbag" congratulated the audience upon having started a "no rent" campaign in order to coerce Lord Ardilaun in relation to his sale of property to the Congested Districts Board, and that a member of the Board was present at the time and made no protest?

I see nothing in the language quoted to lead me to alter my opinion. As to whether the hon. Member for South Mayo heard those observations I know not.

May I ask whether, in the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman, "irresponsible windbags" are all confined to Connaught?

asked the Chief Secretary the grounds upon which Mr. Gallen, Estates Commissioners' in- spector, refused to recommend the application of the tenants on the Howard estate, at Fihora, county Longford, for a, grant to enable them to drain the river and bog in the vicinity of that townland, and construct a road into the bog, which at present is almost inaccessible for want of these things being done; and whether he will request the Commissioners to send another inspector to report on this case?

The Estates Commissioners cannot identify this estate as being the subject of proceedings for sale before them under the Irish Land Acts, 1903–9.

asked the Chief Secretary whether in regard to the estate of T. S. Brew, West Clare, the Congested Districts Board has taken over the estate nearly four years, but that the tenants are still paying the old rent; and can he state when they may expect an abatement?

The Congested Districts Board inform me that they have recently granted an abatement of rents to the tenants on this estate pending a rearrangement and resale of the holdings.

Seeing that this is a very small affair, can the hon. Gentleman see that it is not further postponed?

asked the Chief Secretary whether in reference to the estate of W. V. Reeves, West Clare, he is aware that no vesting orders have yet been issued, not even in regard to those town-lands, Donogrogue, Poulnadance, and Tiervana, respecting which a promise was made several months ago; and whether, in view of the difficulties of the tenants, he can state that the vesting orders will be immediately issued?

The Congested Districts Board cannot state at present when the holdings on this estate will be vested in the tenants. No promise was made by the Board as to when the holdings would be vested.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take note that this, also a small business, has been hanging over for a number of years, and that these "shilly-shallying" methods have caused a bad impression throughout the country?

asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that in the Doolin district of West Clare there are over 100 uneconomic holders who are paying exorbitant rents to eke out scanty livings, while in their vicinity lie over 2,000 acres of untenanted lands, principally on the MacNamara and Gore estates; whether, in view of the fact that the last Land Act was passed for no other purpose than to deal with such cases, he can explain why nothing has been done in this matter; and whether the Congested Districts Board will take these estates in hand without delay?

The Congested Districts Board have received numerous memorials from small landholders in the district mentioned asking them to purchase the estates referred to. Neither of these estates has been offered for sale to the Board, and they do not propose, at present, to take steps to acquire them compulsorily.

Royal Irish Academy (Manuscripts)

asked how long the work of revising and completing the catalogue of modern Irish manuscripts in the Royal Irish Academy has been in operation; has the index to the catalogue been completed; and, if not, how long will it take to complete it; how much money has been spent on the revision and completion of the catalogue; and what is the minimum amount the printing of the revised and completed catalogue would cost?

The secretary of the Royal Irish Academy informs me that the indexing of all the Irish manuscripts has been continuously carried on since 1907. It is very difficult to estimate beforehand the length of time required to complete a work of this kind. In addition to a special grant of £800 made by the Government in 1907, the academy has expended about £1,180 on this work, and until the preparation of the index has been completed it is impossible to estimate the cost of printing the revised and completed catalogue.

Cloghane (County Kerry) National School

asked whether Mrs. Margaret Walsh, assistant teacher in Cloghane national school, county Kerry, has got six consecutive very good reports in the last six years; whether she is trained and classed second of first; and, if so, on what grounds is her promotion delayed; and whether, considering her record and service, she will be promoted as from the beginning of 1913 which, according to the evidence of Mr. Dilworth before the recent Commission, she is entitled to?

The Commissioners of National Education inform me that Mrs. Margaret Walsh has got six consecutive "Very Good" reports within the last six years. She is a trained teacher ranking in the second class (first section) under the old regulations. Assistant teachers are, as a rule, ineligible for promotion beyond the third grade unless in exceptional circumstances. In view, however, of the satisfactory character of the reports on Mrs. Walsh's work, the question of her eligibility for special promotion will be considered by the Commissioners this year.

Housing of Working Classes (Dublin)

asked whether the attention of the Irish Government has been called to the recently issued Report of the Departmental Committee on the Housing Conditions of the Working Classes in Dublin, which Report reveals the existence of a serious state of affairs in that city; whether his attention has been called to the fact that no less than 229 persons per 10,000 live in one-room tenements in Dublin, whereas the corresponding figures for Liverpool are 23 and for Belfast 3 per 10,000; that several members of the corporation own houses described as being unfit for human habitation; and that the Committee recommend State aid towards housing operations in Irish towns; and what steps the Government propose to take to carry out the recommendations of the Committee?

The answer to the first two paragraphs of the question is in the affirmative, except that the figures 10,000 should read 1,000. There are three members of the Dublin Corporation who own houses which are described by the chief superintendent of the sanitary staff of the corporation as being unfit for human habitation. The question of municipal housing is receiving the consideration of the Government.

When will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make a statement as to what steps the Government propose to take? Also, can he explain why the conditions of housing in Dublin are so much worse than they are in Belfast?

Will the Government take into consideration the desirability of bringing in an amending Bill to alter the Act of 1890, to ease the cost to the Corporation of Dublin and other bodies?

That is a very large question. Some such relief must, in my opinion, if that is worth anything, be given to public bodies and ratepayers before they can be expected to take upon themselves the burden of this very necessary work. In reply to the hon. Member for Dudley, I yield to no one in appreciation of the importance of the question, but obviously I am not in a position to say when the Government will be able to make really definite and businesslike proposals in this matter. They cannot be delayed indefinitely.

I beg to give notice that I will raise the question on the Adjournment of the House next Wednesday.

National Schools, Ireland (Teaching of Irish)

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Lords of His Majesty's Treasury have yet sanctioned the proposals of the Commissioners of National Education for the teaching of Irish as an ordinary subject in national schools; and, if so, whether he can give particulars of the regulations which will govern the teaching of Irish in the national schools from the 1st of July, 1914?

Evicted Tenants (Ireland)

asked whether the island called Saints Island, in Lough Ree, county Longford, owner the late Captain Bond, has yet been taken over by the Estates Commissioners; and, if so, whether the application of a man named Edward Clarke, whose father was evicted from the same, will be considered for restoration as an evicted tenant?

The answer to both paragraphs is in the negative. Clarke's father was not evicted within twenty-five years prior to the passing of the Irish Land Act, 1903, and he does not, therefore, come within the class of evicted tenants for whom the Commissioners have power to provide holdings.

asked whether the owner of Aghanvilla and Gurteenard farms, near Geashill, King's County, Mr. James Dunne, Kilbride, Portarlington, has consented to sell those farms to the Estates Commissioners for redistribution amongst evicted tenants and small uneconomic holders in the locality; whether the Commissioners have made Mr. Dunne an offer for the lands; if so, what was the amount of the offer; and was payment to be in cash or stock?

The Estates Commissioners have had a preliminary inspection made and have intimated to the owner the sum they would be prepared to advance if proceedings for sale were instituted under the Land Purchase Acts. Up to the present proceedings have not been instituted. It would be contrary to practice to state particulars of the estimated price at this stage of the negotiations.

Labourers' Cottages (Longford)

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Local Government Board have informed the Longford District Council that they will not advance any further money on foot of the loan necessary to pay for building labourers' cottages, under the 1908 scheme, because twenty-eight cottages have not yet been contracted for; whether he is aware that this is not the fault of the rural district council but of the Local Government Board itself, which has refused to allow the limit of the cost of erection fixed ten years ago to be exceeded now, notwithstanding that materials and labour now cost more; and will he direct that the money be advanced forthwith to enable the council to go on with the work?

The loan sanctioned in this case amounted to £28,800, of which the council have already received £25,000. This is as much as they are entitled to having regard to the present position of the scheme, namely, 129 cottages completed, eight in course of construction, twenty-eight not yet contracted for, and one apparently abandoned. The Local Government Board have felt it necessary to fix a limit of £170 per cottage in regard to the issue of money out of the fund provided by Parliament for the purposes of the Labourers Acts, but this does not preclude a council from borrowing in the open market any additional sum that may be required to complete their scheme, and the council have been so informed.

Shooting Cases (Galway)

asked the Chief Secretary whether he has received a report of the firing into the houses of Patrick Burke and Peter Dooley near Headford, county Galway; whether several shots were fired through the windows of both houses and a revolver bullet was found imbedded in a bag of flour; and whether any arrests were made or any person made amenable?

I am informed that on the night of the 1st February the houses of Patrick Burke and Peter Dooley were fired into as stated. These occurrences were not reported to the police, who only heard of them casually some time afterwards. So far, the police have not been able to obtain sufficient evidence to justify any arrests.

asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that a shooting outrage occurred in county Galway in which a man named B. Uniacke was fired at and wounded near Loughrea, on the morning of 25th February, when walking on his farm; will he say if the motive for this outrage was agrarian; and if Uniacke, though seriously wounded, followed his assailant and identified him, and whether an arrest has been made?

The police inform me that on the morning of the 25th February Bernard Uniacke was fired at and wounded. Uniacke pursued and identified his assailant, who is now awaiting trial. The motive for the outrage is a matter of opinion.

Commission of the Peace, County Cork (Mr. T. Sheehy)

asked whether an application has been made by Mr. Timothy Sheehy, M.C.C., or made on his behalf, to the Lord Chancellor to appoint the said Mr. Sheehy to the Commission of the Peace; whether the Lord Chancellor is aware that Mr. Sheehy carries on the business of a licensed publican in the town of Skibbereen; and whether he has repeatedly tried to be appointed to the Commission during the terms of office of the late Lord Chancellors Walker and Barry?

The Lord Chancellor has appointed Mr. Timothy Sheehy to the Commission of the Peace for county Cork. He is aware that Mr. Sheehy is the licensee of a public-house, and in addition is a coal, fish, and general merchant. The Lord Chancellor is not aware of what applications were made to his predecessors for appointment to the Commission of the Peace.

Hartley Bridge (Carrick-on-Shannon)

asked the Chief Secretary whether he has been informed of the action of the county councils of Leitrim and Roscommon in building an iron bridge over the Shannon, near Carrickon-Shannon, known as Hartley Bridge; whether this bridge has been built at a cost of £1,500, of which the Congested Districts Board contributed £500; if neither of the county councils named have purchased land to make roads connecting this bridge with main roads, with the result that Hartley Bridge is perfectly useless; whether the contractors for the bridge have recovered from the county councils, after legal proceedings, a sum of £291 and costs, as the result of the neglect of the councils to provide boring tools; and whether the Congested Districts Boards or any other public department in Ireland will take steps to ensure that the ratepayers' money expended on this bridge will not be wasted?

The bridge in question has been built at a cost of £1,500, £500 of which was raised by voluntary subscriptions, £500 contributed by the Congested Districts Board, and the balance provided by the Leitrim and Roscommon County Councils. In formulating the proposals for the construction of the bridge the county councils omitted to make proper provision for the approaches thereto, and when the matter was brought under the notice of the Local Government Board they urged the councils to take steps to have the work completed, and it is understood that the subject is now under consideration by the councils. A sum of £291 has, after some arbitration, been awarded to the contractors, but the basis of the claim is not disclosed in the minutes of the councils concerned which were received by the Board.

National Defence

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement to the House respecting the findings of the Sub-Committee of the National Defence Committee upon Invasion before the introduction of either the Navy or Army Estimates?

I fear this will not be possible, as, although the general lines of the Report have been agreed upon, it is not finally settled.

Would it not be possible for the Prime Minister to give even a brief indication of the general conclusions before we are called upon to discuss the Army Estimates? Will he be able to tell us whether 70,000 men, the number that has been laid down by the Committee of Imperial Defence as the possible number of an invading force, has been either increased, or decreased, or remains the same as it did as the result of the last inquiry?

I think partial and fragmentary statements are undesirable. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will repeat his question on Monday?

Would the right hon. Gentleman cause to be circulated the opinions contained in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the senior Member for the City of London, delivered in May, 1905, as to the invasion of this country, in which he stated that no sane person would undertake such an expedition?

The speech was recorded in the pages of the Parliamentary Debates.

Civil Service (Royal Commission)

asked when the Report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service may be expected?

I am afraid I can add nothing to my reply to a similar question on the 23rd February, that the Report may be expected very soon.

Home Rule (Scotland)

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he is aware of the National Conference held in Edinburgh last autumn which called for the details of the Government's proposals for a scheme of Scottish Home Rule; and whether he has any statement to make in response to this particular request; and (2) whether a representative organisation in Scotland, comprising the Scottish Liberal Association, the Scottish Women's Liberal Association, the Young Scots' Society, and the unofficial Scottish Liberal Members of Parliament, have asked for a statement of policy from the Government on Scottish Home Rule; and whether he has made any reply to them?

My right hon. Friend announced the views of the Government on this subject in his speech at Glasgow on 9th November, and there is nothing I can add to it at present.

Arising out of that answer, does the right hon. Gentleman know that the Secretary for Scotland said nothing on that occasion?

Are we to understand that when a Member of the Cabinet speaks in his own or any other constituency he speaks on behalf of the Government?

In a general way, yes, but there is a very large latitude allowed.

That is a question which ought not to be addressed to me, but to the hon. Member below the Gangway.

Government of Ireland Bill

asked the Prime Minister if the statement recently made by the Secretary of State for War at Ilkeston, that no scheme of self-government for Ireland could be regarded as satisfactory which provided for the permanent exclusion of Ulster, was made with his knowledge and authority?

As far as I can gather, my right hon. Friend was merely repeating in his own words what I said in substance in a speech at Ladybank last autumn.

Jury System

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to give effect by legislation during the present Session to the recommendations, or some of them, of the Committee appointed to inquire into the jury system?

I fear it will not be possible to introduce legislation on this subject in the present Session.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the payment of jurors is at least as worthy of consideration as the payment of Members?

Divorce Laws

asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to introduce legislation embodying any of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on the Divorce Laws?

The question is still being considered by the Government, and I am not able to say more at present.

Could not the right hon. Gentleman see the possibility of arranging by general agreement that this matter might be pressed forward?

If I saw any prospect of general agreement I should be glad to do so, but I do not know a more contentious matter.

Foot-and-Mouth Disease

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will state what is the present condition of Ireland as regards foot-and-mouth disease?

The latest information as to the position with regard to foot-and-mouth disease in Ireland is as follows:—In county Kildare, where the first outbreaks occurred, the disease appears now to have been stamped out, no further case having been reported for over a month, but reduced areas surrounding the localities of the outbreaks are still kept under restrictions. In county Cork there have been a number of interrelated cases due to the spread of infection from a sale. Up to to-day fifteen outbreaks have been confirmed in this neighbourhood; they are mostly in or near Cork City. The remotest are approximately nine miles to the south and seventeen to the west. All the outbreaks in county Cork confirmed so far have been traced to this sale held in Cork on 21st ultimo, one or more of the infected animals in each case having been purchased at or returned from that sale or been in contact with animals purchased at or returned from it. Stronger restrictions on animal movement have been applied over a district extending fifteen miles beyond the outermost cases, and arrangements have been made for a staff of over thirty veterinary inspectors and about 150 extra police to deal with the circumstances. The slaughter of affected and in-contact animals is proceeding rapidly, and it is hoped that the situation is now well in hand. There are no reports of the disease from other parts of Ireland.

How many separate premises are now scheduled as infected? Have all the animals that appeared in this sale been traced back to the premises from which they came?

The latter question I can answer in the affirmative. I would like notice as to the other.

Arising out of the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to Kildare, can he now state when the restrictions applied to that county will be removed?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any direct contact between Birkenhead and this sale in Cork has been established, and whether men engaged in the cattle trade in Birkenhead where foot-and-mouth disease is rife were allowed to come to Cork and attend this sale without being disinfected?

Will the right hon. Gentleman enlighten me as to what he means by the phrase "very shortly" Will it be this week?

The hon. Gentleman knows the ordinary practice is to reduce the fifteen-mile radius round the place infected to nine miles. It has been reduced to nine miles and to a smaller circle. I cannot say the exact day, but if nothing happens the restrictions will not be kept on long.

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will state whether, in the case of either of the outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in county Kildare in January last, any attempt was made by a person, claiming to be a knowledgeable person but not being a fully qualified veterinary surgeon, to cure the disease prior to the discovery of its existence by the officials of his Department?

I am informed that no circumstances of the nature referred to in this question occurred in connection with either of the outbreaks mentioned.

Do I understand that no attempt whatever was made to cure any of the animals found on the infected premises at Naas?

The animals were attended by the veterinary officer of the rural district council.

Is it not a fact that immediately the officer in question ascertained that it was foot-and-mouth disease he telephoned at once to the Department, and that steps were immediately taken?

Has the right hon. Gentleman any further particulars to communicate to the House about the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Wales?

The outbreak in Wales has occurred in one place where only one animal is kept, namely, a pig, and it is separated from the other animals by a wall 9 feet high. The people attending the pig have had no connection with Birkenhead or any of the areas where foot-and-mouth disease had broken out. We find it totally impossible to say what has been the origin of the disease, but only one animal is affected. As there was some doubt about the diagnosis, I had two of the most competent of our staff on the premises as soon as possible, and I am sorry to say that they confirm the decision of the veterinary officer on the spot.

Do I understand that it is a solitary pig that is infected with this disease?

Only one solitary pig, but I am sorry to say that this necessitates us placing restrictions on a very wide area of territory.

Southern Nigeria (District Commissioners)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether in Southern Nigeria the District Commissioners have been or are to be given increased powers over the natives of the Protectorate, which are to extend to the power of life and death, without a right of appeal to a higher Court; whether these District Commissioners are often appointed without any legal knowledge or judicial experience; and whether they combine executive with judicial functions?

It is proposed that, subject to certain minor modifications, the system of Provincial Courts which has worked well in Northern Nigeria should be extended to the rest of the Protectorate of Nigeria. A Resident or Commissioner in charge of a province will alone be able to try capital cases, and no sentence of death or of imprisonment beyond six months can be carried out unless the Governor (or a Lieutenant-Governor or Judge of the Supreme Court delegated by the Governor) confirms it. A Resident or Commissioner in charge of a province will, of course, practically always be an officer of considerable length of service and experience of judicial work. He is also an administrative officer, but a combination of administrative and judicial functions is almost essential in a country like West Africa.

Have these Commissioners to pass any examination or to qualify for judicial positions?

Has the Commissioner the advantage of a legal adviser, assessor, or co-adjutor sitting with him at the trial?

Emigration to Canada

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to recent reports, some official and some from charitable agencies, showing that there is much unemployment, with consequent destitution, in Toronto, Winnipeg, Vancouver, and other industrial centres in Canada; and whether his Department will follow the precedent set by the War Office and use the Press of the country to warn intending emigrants to be on their guard against official and shipping agents' statements for inducing emigration, which state that work is plentiful in the Dominion?

I am aware that there has been an unusually large amount of unemployment in Western Canada during the present winter, and serious attention has been drawn to this fact in the Board of Trade "Labour Gazette" for several months past. Similar information has been freely circulated to the Press by the Emigrants' Information Office. I am sending my hon. Friend copies of the notices referred to.

Is the hon. Member aware that the Emigration Office has likewise published information directly by circulars and posters?

China and British-Grown Tea

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the total amount of China and British-grown tea, respectively, imported into the United Kingdom for 1912; the quantity of China tea re-exported; and the amount of each class of tea on which duty was paid?

The total quantity of tea imported from China (including Hong Kong) in 1912 was 20,947,000 lbs., and the total quantity from British Possessions (other than Hong Kong), 306,035,000 lbs. The quantity of China tea re-exported was 10,564,000 lbs. The quantity of China tea retained for con- sumption and subject to duty was 10,559,000 lbs., and the quantity of tea of India and Ceylon retained was 258,682,000 lbs. No information is available with regard to the comparatively trifling quantities of tea imported from other parts of the British Empire which were retained for consumption.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how it is these figures differ entirely from those given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speeches in the House of Commons in August last?

I am not aware of the difference; perhaps the hon. Member will call my attention to it by a question.

London Labour Exchanges (Female Clerks)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether female clerks working overtime in the London Labour Exchanges in order to get out the new books in connection with the unemployment part of the National Insurance Act received no extra remuneration for overtime although the male clerks lid receive some such remuneration; and, if so, whether he will take steps to prevent the repetition of this difference of treatment?

I think the Noble Lord has been misinformed. Women clerks working overtime in connection with the exchange of unemployment books, received gratuities for the work at exactly the same rates as male clerks of equal grade.

Appellate Jurisdiction Act (Lords of Appeal)

asked the Attorney-General whether any appointments have been made of Lords of Appeal under the Appellate Jurisdiction Act of 1913; if so, how many; and will he say who have been appointed to these posts?

Two appointments have been made, Lord Dunedin and Lord Sumner.

National Insurance Act

Approved Societies (Valuation)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Government will issue a warning to the members of those approved societies in which the Insurance Commissioners have reason to believe that grave deficiencies will occur at the first triennial valuation, so as to give those members an opportunity of making some further provision for themselves in case illness?

As I have stated in answer to previous questions, I am not prepared beforehand to publish conjectures as to the probable position upon valuation of particular approved societies.

asked whether the Insurance Commissioners are still advising persons to become members of approved societies instead of deposit contributors, having regard to the probability of grave deficiences in many of these societies, which will entail reduced benefits or increased contributions for their members; and what was the last occasion on which the Insurance Commissioners issued advice to such effect?

The Commissioners are still giving, and intend to continue to give, the advice referred to, the wisdom of which has only been confirmed by the experience of the benefits available during illness for members of approved societies.

Can the hon. Member say in what way the position of the deposit contributors will be inferior to the position of members of approved societies if the deficiencies occur?

I cannot answer a number of hypothetical questions. Members of approved societies have the advantage of insurance. Deposit contributors merely get the advantage of State aid.

Transfers

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that a revised form of Circular A.S. 92, dealing with transfers between approved societies, was issued early in February by the English Insurance Commissioners, and that it simplifies the procedure and is an advantage to societies in point of economy, he can state whether it is intended that a, similar circular should be issued by the Scottish Commissioners; and, if so, at how early a date it may be expected?

My right hon. Friend is informed that the Scottish Insurance Commissioners have this matter under their consideration. It is hoped that a decision will be arrived at at an early date.

Sanatorium Benefit

asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commission, whether his attention has been called to a resolution adopted by the Dublin Insurance Committee, at its meeting on the 19th February, to the effect that it is unable to meet one of its obligations, namely, the supplying of sanatorium benefit, in respect of which there is at present a total waiting list of eighty-three persons; and what the Government propose to do so that these eighty-three consumptive insured persons in Dublin may get the benefit for which they have paid?

My right hon. Friend's attention has not previously been called to the resolution referred to, but he is informed that it is not the case that persons awaiting admission to residential institutions are without treatment in the interim.

Canterbury Insurance Commissioners

asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commission, whether the Insurance Commissioners have received a letter from the Canterbury Insurance Committee, in terms of a resolution passed by the finance subcommittee, asking them to grant an extra sum of money so that the local panel chemists may have their accounts paid in full; and, if so, what action is to be taken in the matter?

Insurance Stamps

asked whether the remuneration payable to sub-postmasters for carrying out such administration of the National Insurance Act as falls upon them has been fixed at the rate of ¾d. for each £1 worth of insurance stamps sold, to include not only the stocking and sale of insurance stamps but the advice given to inquirers at the post office; and whether, in view of the fact that for the sale of ordinary postage stamps 3d. for each £1 worth of stamps sold is allowed, he will take steps to increase the remuneration for national insurance work?

I beg to refer the hon. Member to the replies given to questions on this subject on the 12th February and yesterday.

Questions

Official Report (Scottish Volume)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state when the Scottish OFFICIAL REPORT is likely to be distributed to Scottish Members; what is the occasion for so long a delay; and will precautions be taken in future to deliver the same within reasonable time from the close of the Session?

I understand that these volumes are now ready for delivery. There is, unfortunately, inevitable delay in printing departmental volumes owing to the fact that their preparation depends upon the completion of the full OFFICIAL REPORT, but every effort will be made to secure their delivery at the earliest possible moment.

Sir Francis Drake (Memorial)

asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the Commissioners of His Majesty's Office of Works will provide a site for a statue or a group of statuary proposed to be erected by the committee for erecting a national memorial to Sir Francis Drake on the stone flags between the pumping station and the head (east end) of the Serpentine?

From an answer which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Kincardineshire on 16th April, 1912, the hon. Member will see that the First Commissioner is pledged to oppose any scheme for the erection of statuary in the Royal Parks. He would not be able, therefore, to agree to this suggestion unless it was the unanimous wish of the House.

Arising out of that reply, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether that pledge was not in respect of the grass, and in view of the fact that the site in question is nothing but stone flags does not alter the situation with regard to the pledge?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there would be considerable objection on this side of the House to such an attitude?

My Noble Friend gave a pledge, and could not depart from it with- out the consent of those to whom he gave it.

Shadwell Memorial Park Scheme

asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will state what is the present position of the Shadwell memorial park scheme?

The difficulties with regard to the transfer of the site have now been overcome. The approved draft conveyance having been delivered to the King Edward Memorial Committee last week, and its completion can now only be a matter of a few days. The memorial committee find themselves confronted with unexpected difficulties in providing the funds for the construction of the embankment wall, and the laying out of the park, inasmuch as a promised donation of £25,000 has recently, to the regret of the intending donor, had to be cancelled.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether the First Commisioner has considered the propriety of proposing a Grant-in-Aid or any other means of assistance?

I do not know whether that has been considered, but if not, it shall be considered on the hon. Member's suggestion.

Will my hon. Friend give me any information as to whether the Mansion House committee have hopes of obtaining similar benefactions, or are they considering the idea of making a general appeal to the public?

I have no doubt they would be very glad to have money to carry out the Shadwell scheme.

Sale of Food and Drugs Bill

asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the resolutions passed by chambers of commerce and other trade organisations throughout the country objecting to the provisions of the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill, 1913, which was introduced in the House of Commons last Session; and whether, in face of this opposition, His Majesty's Government propose to proceed with the measure.

My attention has been called to resolutions of the character referred to. I am not yet in a position to say whether the Bill will be reintroduced this Session, but in any case it would not be without modifications. I will take care that ample notice is given.

Rescue and Aid Arrangements (Mines)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the hearing of the mine-owner's appeal against the draft Order relating to rescue and aid arrangements has been heard; and, if so, with what results?

asked whether the parties have been heard before the referee in the appeal at the instance of the Lanarkshire Coalowners Association against the form of the amended regulations issued by the Home Office under Section 85 of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, requiring the provision of self-contained breathing apparatus at all collieries; whether any arrangement has been arrived at between the coalowners and the miners' representatives as to the form of the amended regulations; and when it is expected that the referee will give his decision?

The reference on the mine-owners' objection to the regulation proposed by the Home Office has been partially heard, but in the course of the proceedings an arrangement was come to which, if generally accepted, will render the further hearing unnecessary. Under this arrangement, the owners agree that self-contained apparatus shall be provided and the rescue brigades trained in its use, and an alternative system for the establishment of rescue brigades will be admitted by which, in place of local brigades at the collieries as at present required, permanent brigades will be maintained at the central stations, and one or more men, according to the size of the colliery, will be trained at each mine to act with the central brigade when summoned to the nine. This system has the important advantage of securing brigades more highly trained and efficient than a local brigade with only occasional practices can be, and as the central station must be within ten miles of the mines which it serves, and in telephonic communication with them, and must also be provided with a motor car in constant readiness for transporting the brigades, the central brigades will be able to reach the mine almost as quickly as the local brigade. It will be necessary to propose fresh rules to carry out the arrangement, and this will be done immediately.

Will the contemplated arrangements allow the mine owners to be relieved from the obligation of providing rescue apparatus in mines employing only a few miners?

I should be glad if my hon. Friend would give me notice of that question.

The proceedings are being postponed for a month, and it will not be possible to make an announcement until those proceedings are ended.

Passive Resistance (Mrs. Harvey)

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Harvey who passively resisted, on conscientious grounds, the payment of Licence and Insurance Tax for a servant called Asquith, and who was consequently imprisoned last summer for two months in the second division; whether he is aware that she complained of the dampness of her cell causing rheumatism and gastric catarrh; whether he made any and what inquiries into these complaints, and from whom; whether Mrs. Harvey had any opportunity of testing information given to him by asking questions of his informants; and whether he will cause further inquiry to be made into Mrs. Harvey's complaints?

Mrs. Harvey served only one month, the fine due on a second commitment having been paid. After her discharge from prison she communicated to the Press certain statements with regard to her treatment in prison. These were brought to my notice; I inquired into them, and satisfied myself they were without foundation. I should mention that though during her imprisonment Mrs. Harvey sent four petitions to the Home Office, she made no complaint on the points referred to in the question, nor is any difference made to them in a letter of complaint I received from her solicitors in January last. I see no reason for any further inquiry into the matter.

May I ask if this servant, who acted upon the promptings of conscience, is the same as His Majesty's servant of the same name?

Sub-Postmasterships

asked the Postmaster-General whether postmen are eligible for the position of sub-postmasterships; and, if so, how many years have elapsed since any postmen employed in Edinburgh received such an appointment?

Postmen are eligible to be appointed to sub-postmasterships. As regards the latter part of the question, I am having inquiry made, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

Fedwhir (Aberdare) Postal Service

asked if the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to grant the boon of a second postal delivery on week days to the inhabitants of the district of Fedwhir, near Aberdare?

I am having inquiry made in the matter, and I will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

Imperial Wireless Chain

asked with regard to the establishment of a chain of Imperial wireless stations, when it was decided to establish a three-way station near Cairo instead of in East Africa as before contemplated; with what stations in the chain would the three-way station in East Africa have communicated and at what distances, respectively; with what stations will the three-way station near Cairo communicate and at what distances, respectively; whether the establishment of Cairo as a three-way station instead of East Africa will necessitate any and, if so, what alteration in the Marconi agreement of the 30th July, 1913; and, if not, whether a supplementary agreement will be necessary, binding the Marconi Company to demonstrate and to maintain a continuous and efficient communication between Egypt and India, as provided by Clause 7 of the principal agreement with regard to the stations there specified?

The decision to establish a three-way station in Egypt instead of in East Africa was arrived at in November last. It was intended that the three-way station to be erected in East Africa should have communicated with the Imperial Wireless Stations in Egypt (distance 1,900 miles), in India (2,570 miles), and in South Africa (1,600 miles). The station about to be constructed in Egypt will communicate with stations in England (distant 1,950 miles), in India (2,560 miles), and in East Africa (1,900 miles). The question whether the rearrangement of the Egyptian and East African stations necessitated a further formal agreement with Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Company supplementary to that of the 30th July, 1913, was considered by the Law Officers of the Crown, and they advised that the variation was a mere modification of the contract in one particular, and did not affect its general scope and character, and that an exchange of letters would be sufficient. The Marconi Company have given a written guarantee, a guarantee which I shall regard as a most strictly binding one, that continuous and efficient, communication will be maintained between the stations in Egypt and India in accordance with Clause 7 of the agreement of the 30th July last.

Land Valuation

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer questions of which I have given private notice to himself and the Attorney-General, namely, whether, in view of the judgments of Mr. Justice Scrutton in the cases of Hunter v . the Commissioners of Inland Revenue and Smyth v . the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, he will give directions that all provisional valuations of agricultural land which have not been fixed by effluxion of time and which are not under objection shall stand over without prejudice to the owner, whether extension of the sixty days of grace is requested or not; and whether the Government accept the Order of Mr. Justice Scrutton confirming the award of Mr. D. Watney in the case of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue v . Hunter that unexhausted manures and tillages are included in agricultural value, and, if so, whether they will amend the provisional valuations sent out accordingly?

May I also ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the Attorney-General's statement yesterday that he has advised an appeal by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue against Mr. Justice Scrutton's judgments delivered on the 28th of February last, it is intended to stop further assessments to Undeveloped Land Duty from being made until the appeal is heard, in cases affected by the decision?

I will answer first the question originally intended for the Attorney-General. The question of the extent to which this and the other judgments should be accepted or appealed against is still under consideration. As to the other question asked by the hon. Member for Chelmsford, in all cases affected by the judgments such directions will be given. In answer to the hon. Member for Aston Manor as to stopping further assessments to Undeveloped Land Duty, where the decisions would vary the amount due the cases will be kept in abeyance pending a final determination of the questions in dispute.

Julia Decies (Conviction)

I wish to ask if the attention of the Home Secretary has been called to the nature of the evidence given in the case of Julia Decies at the Central Criminal Court on Wednesday last, when the jury, in finding her guilty, recommended her to mercy, and Mr. Justice Darling sentenced her to seven years penal servitude; and whether he can see his way to order a remission of the sentence?

I have only seen a newspaper report of the trial which took place yesterday. I would remind the hon. Member that it is open to the prisoner, within ten days of her conviction, to apply to the Court of Criminal Appeal for leave to appeal against her sentence.

Will the right hon. Gentleman put his powers into force in consequence of the beastly way in which this man served the woman?

I think, in the first instance, the proper course for a prisoner who feels aggrieved by a sentence is to appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal.

Government of Ireland Bill

I beg to ask the Prime Minister a question, of which I have given him private notice: Whether he will arrange to lay upon the Table of the House, at the conclusion of Monday's Debate, a White Paper embodying the Amendments of the Government to the Government of Ireland Bill, so that the concrete proposals of the Government may be in the hands of Members as early as possible?

We will prepare, so as to be ready for publication on Tuesday morning, a White Paper describing the proposals.

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what business will be taken next week?

On Monday, the Second Beading of the Government of Ireland Bill will be taken. It may be—I do not know—that it will not occupy the whole evening; and, if not, the Importation of Plumage (Prohibition) Bill, and some others small Orders on the Paper will be taken.

On Tuesday, we propose to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on the Army Estimates.

On Wednesday that Motion will be continued.

On Thursday, we shall take Army Votes in Committee of Supply.

Bills Presented

Fresh Water Fish (Scotland) Bill

"To provide for the better protection of Fresh Water Fish in Scotland; and for other purposes relating thereto." Presented by Sir JOHN BARRAN; supported by Major Anstruther-Gray, Mr. Barnes, Sir William Bull, Dr. Chapple, Mr. Clyde, Viscount Dalrymple, Mr. Duncan Millar, Mr. Wilkie, and Sir George Younger; to be read a second time upon Friday, 13th March, and to be printed. [Bill 94.]

Government of Ireland Bill

"To amend the provision for the Government of Ireland." Presented by Mr. BIRRELL; supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Herbert Samuel, Secretary Sir Edward Grey, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Churchill, and Mr. Attorney-General; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 95.]

Metropolitan Councils (Expenses of Association) Bill

"To remove doubts as to the legality of certain payments by the Councils of Metropolitan Boroughs. Presented by Lord ALEXANDER THYNNE; supported by Sir John Harmood-Banner, Mr. Hamar Greenwood, Mr. Crooks, and Mr. Dawes; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 96.]

Established Church (Wales) Bill

"To terminate the Establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire; and to make provision in respect of the Temporalities thereof; and for other purposes in connection with the matters aforesaid." Presented by Mr. Secretary MCKENNA; supported by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Hob-house, Mr. Solicitor-General, Mr. Ellis Griffith, Mr. Herbert Lewis, and Mr. William Jones; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 97.]

Plural Voting Bill

"To impose a penalty on an elector who votes in more than one constituency at a General Parliamentary Election." Presented by Mr. JOSEPH PEASE; supported by Mr. Secretary Harcourt, Mr. Samuel, Mr. Montagu, Mr. Harold Baker, and Mr. Attorney-General; to be read a second time on Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 98.]

Animals (Anesthetics) Bill

"To make further provision for the protection of Animals from cruelty." Presented by Mr. WALTER GUINNESS; supported by Dr. Addison, Sir Frederick Ban-bury, Lord Henry Cavendish-Bentinck, Mr. Butcher, Mr. Courthope, Mr. Greene, Colonel Lockwood, Mr. Malcolm, Mr. Mills, Mr. Snowden, and Mr. Cathcart Wason; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 99.]

Solicitors (Qualification of Women) Bill

"To remove disqualifications on the ground of sex or marriage for the admission of persons as Solicitors, and their acting and practising as Solicitors under the Solicitors Acts." Presented by Mr. HILLS; supported by Mr. Amery, Mr. M'Curdy, Mr. Ramsay Macdonald, Mr. Radford, and Mr. Worthington-Evans; to be read a second time upon Monday, 16th March, and to be printed. [Bill 100.]

Supply.—[1st Allotted Day.]

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Private Business

Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbour Bills

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Bill be now read a second time."

I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."

I am bound to call attention to the fact that in regard to this Bill a circular has been issued to Members of this House which grossly misrepresents the main position. One paragraph of that circular says the Bill is opposed by Mr. Delany because the Great Southern and Western Railway Company do not see their way to provide a station at Borris-in-Ossory on a branch line. That is a gross misrepresentation of my opposition to the Bill. I do not oppose the measure on any such ground. The Great Western Railway Company came before the House last Session with a Bill similar if not identical with the one before us. After a long discussion it was rejected by a considerable majority—133 to 95. They come here this evening with practically the same Bill. They have never met any of the grievances which were complained of by the staff, and they have never endeavoured to satisfy the Members who, in their duty here, took up an attitude of opposition to the measure. The promoters ask the House of Commons tonight to consent against its will to the Second Reading, upon a misrepresentation which was circulated among Members of the House this morning. Against that procedure I strongly protest. This Fish-guard and Rosslare Railway was promoted in 1898 by a Bill in this House. I was not hero. The Bill went before the Hybrid Committee upstairs, and, as I understand, it was discussed in detail very carefully. The Committee rejected one-half of the provisions of that Bill, and what happened? Next year this company promoted another Bill, which included all the objectionable provisions which had been rejected by the Hybrid Committee in the Bill the previous year, and that passed through the House. That is one reason why we should be very sceptical in regard to Railway Bills introduced into this House. It is most important that a Bill of this character should be discussed in the interests of the public, in the interests of of the staff, and in the interests of the railway company itself. In 1911 there was a strike on this Fishguard and Rosslare Railway.

The men were beaten, and I am sorry to say that after they went back they were the victims, and are still being made the victims to this very day by the company, for having stood as trade unionists and as men combining for their own interests. Not one of the men who took part in that strike has ever been promoted since they went back, but they have been degraded in this way, that the blacklegs, who took their place, have been promoted before them. I do not think that ought to be the course followed by a great and rich company like the Great Western Railway Company. When a dispute is closed there ought to be give and take and general forgiveness; above all, there ought to be some humanity exercised by a great and rich company like the Great Western towards men of this class. It is not in the interests of the company and its shareholders, it is not in the interests of the travelling public—who should have some voice in these matters—that this condition of feeling should exist, and it would be better for the safety and convenience of the travelling public that there should be an efficient railway staff, a staff that is fairly treated, that is not nursing grievances, that is not sullen and discontented, but one which is paid fair terms and enjoys good conditions of labour. It is not so. That is one reason why I stand up here to oppose the Bill, and move its rejection. This Fish-guard and Rosslare Railway was established by the Act of 1888, and the company were bound to go to the Irish Clearing House to have their goods traffic and passenger traffic dealt with there, but in place of their going to the Irish Clearing House they go to the English Clearing House and take a large amount of business from Ireland. If I am correctly informed they cannot go to the English Clearing House themselves. The Act establishing the London Clearing House, 13 and 14 Vic., chapter 33, 25th June, 1850, limits their work to railways only, while the Act establishing the Irish Clearing House, namely. 23 Vic, chapter 29, empowers the Irish House to deal with railway, canal, and steam-boat traffic. Therefore, the Great Western Company, in going to the English Clearing House, must get some other company to represent them. That is another instance of the injustice they are doing and the illegal action they are taking in these matters. This Bill empowers the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbour Company with the Cunard Company to take their mails from Queenstown. It has affected the commercial interests of Ireland, north, south, east and west, and it has injured at once, and for ever if it continues, an asset, and a growing asset, for the advance of Ireland, namely, the tourist traffic from America which was developing, and very largely developing. No more disastrous or fatal blow could be struck, not only at that traffic, but at the commercial and industrial interests of Ireland, than that of allowing the Cunard Company to wriggle out of their contract and pass by Queenstown, at which, under its terms, they were bound to call. On those grounds I propose the Amendment, and I hope the House of Commons will support me as it did last Session by a very decisive and very strong vote after a calm discussion.

9.0 P.M.

I beg to second the Amendment.

Before I come to deal with the victimisation of many of the employés of this company in Ireland, I desire to refer to the origin of the Fishguard line, because I consider that most of the difficulties that have arisen, and the criticisms we have to offer here to-night with regard to the treatment, of employés of the company in Ireland, would not have been necessary if the original intention of Parliament with regard to the control of this line had been carried out. In 1898 a Hybrid Committee sat consisting of nine Members of this House, and for a period of five weeks dealt with the Bill under which this Fishguard line was acquired and built. It consists of a length of line of 93 miles from Fermoy in county Cork, to Rosslare Harbour in county Wexford. The Great Southern and Western Railway of Ireland, and the Great Western Railway Company of England, came before Parliament, and put their evidence before that Hybrid Committee in promoting the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Bill. For the first three days of the proceedings of that Committee, the 8th, 9th, and 10th of June, 1898, the Committee largely devoted its attention to the question which arose with regard to the position of the Great Southern and Western Railway in connection with the proposed line. The position then was that the Great Southern and Western Railway Company controlled the only through route from the south of Ireland and the Midlands to England and Scotland. They controlled the system from Cork to Dublin viâ Kingstown to Holyhead, and they had relations with the London and North-Western Railway Company. That was admitted in the evidence of the chairman of the Great Southern and Western Railway Company before the Hybrid Committee. The question the Committee had to consider was whether Parliament would allow that company, which then controlled the only main route from Ireland to this country, to control the proposed new route from the south of Ireland to this country. For the first three days that was the chief question at the Committee. Lord Cawdor, the chairman of the Great Western Railway Company, was examined with regard to that. The Bill of that year proposed as introduced, that the Great Western Railway Company should have three directors on the board of the Fishguard Company, and that the Great Southern and Western Company should also have three directors, and that the Fishguard Company, which had been formed by a Mr. Henderson, should have one director, thus making seven in all.

That was the proposition before the Hybrid Committee, which took a very strong line with regard to it. It was pointed out that Mr. Henderson, who was to represent the Fishguard Company on the board, was merely there temporarily, and would be likely to disappear if the Bill passed, because the two companies were taking over the interest of Mr. Henderson and his friends in the original Fishguard Company. There was the utmost reluctance on the part of Earl Cawdor, who was cross examined at length for two days with regard to whether his company would be willing to secure a permanent controlling voice in the management of the new company, to assent to such a proposal, and he did not assent to it as a matter of fact. When the chairman of the Great Southern and Western Company entered the chair on the third day he was subjected to examination and cross-examination by several counsel and several members of the Committee, dealing with this point alone, as to whether it would not, be the fact that under the board of the Fishguard Company, as proposed by the Bill, the Great Western Company would not have the control the members of the Committee desired in Ireland over the working of the new route, but that the control would remain in the hands of the Great Southern and Western Company, which was already proposing to acquire the control of the Waterford and Limerick Railway and of the Limerick and Central Ireland Railway. On the third day of the Hybrid Committee the proposals which had been accepted by the boards of these two companies were put in evidence. The only two questions that were really discussed on the first three days was whether the Great Western Company were to have control of the proposed new route or whether that control was to be in the hands of the Great Southern and Western Company, and whether the Great Southern and Western Company would undertake to come to Parliament for sanction to the amalgamation with the Waterford and Limerick Railway and the Waterford and Central Ireland Railway. The Committee desired that the Great Southern and Western Company should not by any pooling arrangement avoid coming to Parliament. On the 13th June the leading counsel for the Great Western Railway and the Great Southern and Western Company, the late Mr. Pope, began by saying:—

One of the main objects of the Committee in 1898 in desiring to secure a permanent majority of the board of the Fishguard line for the Great Western Company, was to prevent the Great Southern and Western Company, which controlled the other great route between Ireland and England, from treating the two great routes, which ought to be competitive, as part of the system of monopoly, which the Great Southern and Western undoubtedly have in two-thirds of Ireland. That is one of the chief reasons I wish to give the House to-night for giving no further facilities by this Bill to the Fishguard Company. The Great Western Railway Company has not done its duty under the Act of 1898. They have allowed the Great Southern and Western Company of Ireland to do what was never contemplated by the Committee upstairs when this House passed the original Act of 1898. We should not have had the trouble which we have had in regard to the employés of this company in Ireland if the Great Western Railway Company had exercised its controlling power and voice as provided in the original Bill of the Great Southern and Western Company. I do not know where the Fishguard directors, of whom there are seven, meet. I know there is no balance sheet of this company, and no annual report. It has no note paper on which to write letters. So far as any letters are concerned that I have received with respect to the employés of the Fishguard Company, they have been written on Great Southern and Western Company's paper. As regards the employés at Waterford, the Irish part of this Fishguard route, I want frankly to meet this point. Under the agreement of May, 1898, which was embodied in the schedule of the Act of 1899, it is provided that the Great Southern and Western Company shall "work, manage and maintain" a portion of the system in Ireland, that is, the ninety-three miles from Fermoy to Rosslare.

But if that clause is to be held to give the Great Southern and Western Company complete and absolute control of that ninety-three miles of line, what is the meaning of the Hybrid Committee spending three days at the beginning of its proceedings to extract the consent of the Great Southern and Western Company and the Great Western Company to the permanent constitution of a board in the proportion I have mentioned. These companies are now reading the proposition contained in the schedule of the Act of 1899, that the Great Southern and Western Company "shall work, manage, and maintain" a line in Ireland, as giving them complete and absolute control of the line, of its policy, rates, fares, treatment of employés, and everything else connected with the line. I say that Parliament, in 1898, never intended that that should be so. They are setting up that Clause of the Schedule to the Act of 1899 against Section 89 of the Bill of 1898. They have no right to set it up, because that Clause was in the agreement which came before the Committee in 1898, and the Committee had cognisance of that Clause in the agreement. It is true they did not insert that Clause in the Bill of 1898. It is also true that they did extract from the agreement between the Committees of May, 1898, when they met in June—I am speaking of the Hybrid Committee—certain provisions of the agreement which had been entered into between the two Committees on May 27th, and incorporate them in the Act of 1898; but they did not insert this one. Lord Shuttleworth—who was then Sir U. K. Shuttleworth—was chairman of the Hybrid Committee in 1898, and also chairman of the Private Bill Committee in 1899.

He took part on these three days in clearing up at the beginning the point that I have mentioned. At his suggestion, finally, when it was made clear by him that the Committee would not accept and assent to the Bill unless the permanent constitution of the Board was such as desired by the Committee, that the two boards consented to the permanent constitution. How can these Companies now assert what they do? Apparently, the Great Southern and Western Railway has ignored Section 89 of the Act of 1898, and has treated this Clause in the agreement which was in the Schedule as giving them complete control. This is a most serious thing for Ireland as regards competition, and in respect of rates and fares. I regret my hon. Friend the Member for the City of London is not here to-night, because he would have been able, with some effect, as he did last year, when a similar Bill was rejected by the House, to show what the result has been in regard to the question of these two routes from Ireland to England—as to what the effect has been on the trade and traffic of the South and Midlands of Ireland. He would have assured the House, as he did, that the Great Southern and Western Railways is in effect a monopoly over the Midlands and the South of Ireland: that the intention of Parliament in regard to the Act of 189S has not been carried out, and is not being carried out at the present time.

These companies seem to be quite reluctant to change the position. The Great Western Railway Company, seems to be quite reluctant even to make any suggestion to the Great Southern and Western Railway, who have a majority on the board of the Fishguard Company—this mythical board which does or does not meet—and it does not matter. Certainly the Great Southern and Western Railway Company's control is inimicable to the best interests of trade and commerce in the Midlands and the South of Ireland. In my view it is the duty of Parliament to resent the fact that these two companies, which constitute the Fishguard Company, have not carried out the intention of Parliament in regard to preserving for the Great Western Railway, the controlling voice in the management of the company. I am informed that some of the provisions of last year's Bill are embodied in the Bill of this year. I have not got last year's Bill, but it was certainly known last year that the Great Western Company, one of the promoters of this Bill, intended to make Fishguard an ocean port. Fishguard was then intended to be the competitor that was to kill Queenstown. I understand them to say that they have now abandoned that idea, and that they are now content with the more modest role of being a British channel port. Why was that policy inaugurated? After Mr. Cunard came on the board of the Great Western Railway Company the Cunard liners, for the first time on the eastward route, began to call at Fishguard, and to take passengers and mails at Fishguard. I am rather inclined to doubt whether these companies have abandoned the idea of making Fishguard an ocean port. If, as I believe, they have never abandoned the idea, one of the main objects of this Bill is, as I contend, to find the money—and I think that that shows very clearly control. One of the objects of the Bill is to make Fishguard an ocean port. Cunard liners have hitherto been calling at, Fishguard whenever they could and the weather was suitable on this eastward journey. The idea at the back of the minds of the directors of the Great Western Company is, I believe, to make Fishguard an ocean port from which liners shall sail from this country to America. But if they have abandoned, as they say they have, that idea, the people in Ireland, who have been so upset by the arrangements recently made—or, rather, by the upsetting of the arrangements which formerly existed between the Post Office and the Canard Company—will welcome it, and will be glad to have a definite assurance that there is no intention of Fishguard going to be set up as an ocean port to compete with Queenstown. It will more probably compete with Liverpool. We have not despaired in Ireland of even yet being able to compel these great ocean liners to come back to Queenstown.

Leaving that point, I wish now, although I have trespassed rather unduly upon the time of the House, to deal with the case of the men who are penalised by the Great Southern and Western Railway upon that portion of the Fishguard line under their control. I think if ever there was a case where the Great Western directors ought to exercise their influence to prevent what is going on on that portion of their line in Ireland, it is this case. I have the particulars of the penalisation of a number of men from Waterford who are on the Fishguard line, midway almost between Fermoy and Rosslare, and they are certainly surprising in view of what was said here last year by some of my colleagues and myself in this Debate as to what was going on, and is going on, with regard to the penalisation of men who took part in the strike in 1911. It is going on at the present time, inasmuch as the men who took part in that strike, although some were reinstated, are being degraded and refused promotion whenever it is open to the company to put a blackleg into the places rather than the men who went on strike. That is going on to-day, but immediately after the Bill of last year the secretary to the Great Southern and Western Railway had the assurance to write a letter for publication in the Dublin Press saying that no employé of his company had been penalised in connection with the strike of 1911. That rather opened my eyes, and I said, if this Bill comes on next year, as it probably will, I had better have some names and particulars with regard to the number of men, not on the general system, there are hundreds of men penalised on this company's system, but I am only dealing now with the system which is part of this route, and immediately after the rejection of the Bill last year, when I saw this letter, I wrote to Mr. Richard Keane, of Waterford, one of the, men who had been penalised, and I asked him to give me the names of the men at Waterford who had been penalised, and he wrote to me on the 12th May, 1913, shortly after the rejection of the Bill, as follows:— Sequently I wrote to the general manager, as follows:—

With regard to Maurice Carroll, an offer was made to take him back, but it was as goods porter at Kingsbridge Station, far removed from the Fishguard line, and that is not reinstatement, because Carroll was a goods guard. That is not a fair reinstatement, because his wages would be reduced and his position would be Jess. Even that case, as well as all the others I have given, contradict the contention in the letter which the secretary wrote after the House rejected the Bill of last year. I have only read a small part of the correspondence, but I think it is sufficient to satisfy hon. Members that this company is victimising and penalising these men. Eleven of these men were victimised at Waterford Station, and seven of them have gone to find other employment. Four of them, however, are anxious to get back, and the only response I have been able to get from the company is that one was offered a lower position, and the other three would not be taken back because they were said to be unsuitable. I think that is an unfair evasion on the part of the company, and they have no reasonable or just answer to the case which has been made out for these men. Numbers of men on that line have been victimised, and on these grounds I ask this House not to permit this victimisation to go on, and thus allow the Great Western Railway to abdicate its position as regards controlling this system. I think we ought to insist that the Great Western Company shall take up the position it is entitled to take under the Act of 1898. If this Bill should receive a Second Reading I do not intend to let this matter rest, and I shall move an Instruction when this Bill comes back from the examiner's to give effect to Section 89 of the Act of 1898 to compel the Great Western Company to exercise an effective controlling voice over this line in Ireland.

The speeches which have been delivered by the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment require a reply from me. Perhaps I may be allowed to refer shortly to the point raised by both hon. Members with regard to Fishguard as a possible rival to Queenstown. It is perfectly true that in the past there was an expectation that Fishguard might become a port of outward as well as inward call for Atlantic steamers. For very much the same reason as that which has created the altered position with regard to Queenstown it is evident that the Great Western Railway could not make any such change in the way suggested as would justify such a further expenditure of capital. If hon. Members will refer to the Bill they will see that in Section 22 power is taken to discontinue certain works which were in prospect. Besides that the company have also abandoned the idea of making an ocean quay such as would be necessary for outward liners to call, as well as discontinuing the eastern breakwater. The money required, £300,000, is for the repairs and completion of the main breakwater, which has been considerably damaged unexpectedly by severe weather. The company has, in fact, had to call in expert advice on the subject and embark on a large part of this expenditure with a view of protecting the work and securing the present Irish services, services which, if we had another winter like the one previous to this, would be very much jeopardised were they not enabled to proceed with the contract, and proceed with it at once, for strengthening the whole line of the breakwater, and protecting the money which has been already spent upon it.

I have been told—and I believe it is a fact—that if this expenditure is delayed another twelve months, it is very questionable whether the company will be able to maintain their obligatory services, at any rate, as they have done in the past. Therefore it is important that the House, if it decides to reject this Bill a second time, should realise the responsibility of the step. Of course, if all that has been alleged against the Great Western Company is correct, one can conceive that, such a drastic course might become necessary and perhaps desirable. My contention is, and it is after all a legal point, that by the Act of 1898–9 this House, the Committees of this House, and the chairman who is appointed over those Committees, deliberately contemplated this severance of the two interests, and that the Great Western Railway Company should be responsible for the management of the Fishguard and Rosslare services on this side and as far as Rosslare, and that the line of rail which has already been alluded to belonging to the Fishguard and Rosslare Company should be handed over for management and maintenance and control to the Great Southern and Western line. It has been suggested today that a postponement might be desirable, but if the Great Western Railway Company really felt that they had a controlling and compelling influence with the Great Southern and Western Railway, is it to be contemplated that after the severe reverse the company received at the hands of Parliament twelve months ago, they would deliberately put forward another Bill on the same lines without having taken the trouble to try and remove these obstacles which have been put before them so forcibly by the two hon. Members?

Anybody can see that the risks the Great Western Railway-would run would be infinitely less than they run to-night in promoting this Bill and having it again rejected.

Will the hon. Member tell the House what the Great Western have done since last year?

I am not a member of this company myself. I am not one of the four Great Western directors, but I understand that they have used what influence they could to persuade their colleagues and the; larger directorate of the Great Southen and Western that it was most necessary in their mutual interests to remove these grievances. The House and the country have had examples in the past twelve months of the difficulty of persuading a director, and it is quite as hard to persuade him there as it is here. The House may take it from me that the railway company have failed. The argument of the hon. Member for West Waterford (Mr. O'Shee)—and he has an advantage over me, because I believe he actually served on the Committee—is that the Committee had a?certain agreement before it, an agreement which was come to between the two companies before the Bill came before the Committee in 1898, and that it deliberately accepted certain points in that agreement, and embodied them in a Bill, and omitted certain other points. I hope the House will bear with me while I read a few extracts to show that it was the deliberate intention of the 1898 Committee that the rest of the agreement which was submitted to them should be embodied in a subsequent Bill. It was, for the technical reasons which appear, not possible to embody them in the then Bill, because the notices and so forth had not been given as required under the rules of Parliament. The agreement contains the following provisions:— points with regard to the agreement, which perhaps I might read:— working the Cork and Rosslare Railway. It was perfectly understood that the Great Southern and Western Company were to work that system.

There is no necessity to discuss the details of the 1911 strike. It is a matter on which the Great Western Company have felt that they have no locus standi. They have no power to interfere further than by making such representations as can be made as between one man and another without power to carry them out. As far as I have been able to study the question, I am advised with regard to the technical position of these two Committees, that the hon. Member's contention is not borne out, and that the Great Western Company have no control and no power such as he imputes to them. If that were not so, I should feel compelled, though much against my will, to try and discuss the various details of alleged intimidation to which he has alluded. I feel that the Great Western Railway Company have shown all through that it is their pride to manage their affairs creditably, and to give the best possible service both as regards the Channel transit and as regards railway communication. It is rather hard, feeling as the company does in this way, that it should be brought to task not only last year but again this year, for alleged acts or alleged lack of interference in matters which we feel Parliament deliberately recognised as not in their province. Hon. Members know that when one company interferes with another company's affairs it is not the best way of getting redress on particular points. When I first noticed that this larger subject was to be brought forward, I addressed several questions to a representative of the railway company with a view to being able to reply to points that might be raised in this Debate, but I was told that no good object could be served by giving the information. This represents the feeling which, rightly or wrongly, exists at the present time with regard to any interference on the part of the Great Western Company with the staff and working of the Great Southern and Western Company on this section of the line, which they consider has been definitely allocated to the control and management of the Irish company.

I have no desire, and indeed no right, to interfere in the controversies between the hon. Member on the other side and the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken in regard to the general purposes of this Bill. As far as I can gather from the speech just made, there is less need to do it in view of the statement to which we have just listened. Nor is it my main purpose to take part in the other controversy with regard to labour conditions on the other side, although I should like heartily to associate myself with hon. Members opposite in the complaints they have made as to the victimisation of men across the Irish Channel. It seems to me they have a very strong case here, I will not say against the Great Western Company, but at any rate against the company on the other side for having taken action against certain men for the sole reason, as far as I can gather, that they took part in the strike. Probably they were members of the Railway Men's Union, and that fact may—although it has not been so alleged to-day—have been in the minds of the managers of the Great Southern and Western Railway when deciding on their action. But the fact which has impressed itself upon my mind more than any other is that part of the case dealing with the character of the men who were victimised. Two of them were of unimpeachable character, and they were so thoroughly reliable that they were appointed to fill superior positions in the absence of superior officers.

I associate myself with my hon. Friends opposite in the case against some-body, I will not say who it is. But, as far as I can gather, it is a very unfortunate circumstance that the Great Western Railway Company has, by Statute, been divested of any powers of interference on the other side. I gather somebody is going to reply on behalf of the promoters of the Bill, and I hope that this point will be carried a little further, for it is perfectly clear that the Great Western Company has, since the Bill was last under discussion, made certain representations to the directors on the other side, although there is no statement as to the action which it is intended to take henceforth. As the statement has been made that a message was sent to the manager or somebody on the other side, in view of this Debate coming on to-night, to satisfactorily dispose of that grievance, it seems to be a legitimate grievance. If the matter is to be carried further, and I hope it will be, then what will guide me to some extent in what I may do will not be what has been done by the Great Western Company, but what they intend to do in the future to remove that legitimate grievance put forward by my hon. Friends opposite.

The main reason why I rise to take part in this Debate is to put a distinctive case of our own. I do not think there will be the same dubiety as to where the responsibility lies, because in this case the responsibility will be found to lie against the Great Western Railway Company. Our case can be put in a very small compass. It is all contained in a letter I hold in my hand from the General Secretary of the Amalgamated Labourers' Union. The purpose of our intervening in this Debate and putting down a blocking Motion is to avail ourselves of the ordinary opportunities for bargaining on occasions of this character, in order to see that the men in Fishguard and the area generally on this side concerned in this Bill shall have the ordinary rights of combination, and that nothing shall be placed in their way and no victimisation take place in the event of the men organising to improve their position. It is alleged that that has been done by the Great Western Railway Company. As we are advised, a strike took place at Fishguard against the Great Western Railway Company in June of last year. The object of the strike was to improve the position of the men as regards wages, meal-times, and stopping-times generally. I need not go into that now. After a week or two, and after the Great Western Company had replaced some of the men who came out on strike, the men were induced to meet the representatives of the Company, a Mr. John Rees. After meeting this Gentleman the men went away with the impression on their minds that they had an assurance from him that if they returned to work their grievances would be rectified. On the strength of that assurance the men did go back to work, but when they went back it was found that three, of them were, as we are advised, victimised.

Those three were the chairman, the secretary of the local branch, and a man who had been for many years employed by the company and who was a lame man, he having met with some accident some years ago on the Great Western line. The chairman and the man who had met with an accident, after about three months' time, during which they had been sup- ported financially by their union, obtained employment in the service of the contractor who was carrying out some extensions on behalf of the Great Western Company at Fishguard. They were employed some little time, and then the chairman of the branch was dismissed. We allege that he was dismissed for the simple reason that he was an official of the union. The secretary of the branch, who was still out of work, went to see the men on the harbour works to deal with them in connection with the affairs of the union, but was immediately warned off by the representative of the Great Western Company. He was instructed by his superior officials to see the representative of the company with a view to getting access to the harbour to carry on the ordinary work of the union. He wrote to the representative of the company but received no reply. Afterwards he met him at Swansea station, or somewhere else, and made representations to him as to the desirability of his getting to the harbour works because the men that he represented started? work at different times, left off at different times, and worked long hours, and it was therefore impossible to get the men together at any time except by seeing them at their work. He very much desired that that should be done, but that has not been done. Our case briefly is that these three men have been victimised because of their association with the union.

We desire that the railway company or the promoters of this Bill should, before it passes, make a statement in plain terms, and give us assurances that the men in that area shall have a right to combine, and will not be victimised in any way because they do combine. In the second place, we desire to have some statement as to the branch chairman, who is still out of work. We want to know from the promoters of the Bill whether or not they are going to place any obstacle in the way of that man getting employment. Of course, if there is not a job for him, we do not ask them to make one, but we do ask that, in the event of the man making an application for work, his association with the union shall not prejudice him in getting work there. In the third place, we desire some statement as to the secretary going on to the harbour works to see his men in connection with union business. We do not put that forward as a right. We know perfectly well, in fact, the letter I have in my hand admits that he has no legal right on the harbour works, but we do ask, as a matter of goodwill and in order to promote good feeling between the railway company and their employés and to make it perfectly clear that the railway company have no objection to their men organising, that no obstacle shall be put in the way of the secretary going on to the harbour works. I have endeavoured to put the three points before the promoters of the Bill without any waste of time and as concisely as possible. It may be that my hon. Friend beside me (Mr. Wardle), who has a more intimate knowledge of railway matters than I have, may intervene later on. We shall be guided as to what we shall do later on by the statement that may be made and by the further consideration of the case put forward by my hon. Friends opposite.

10.0 P.M.

It hardly seems twelve months since this Bill was under discussion and rejected by this House. As it was twelve months ago, so to-day the exigencies of the situation have led to the oddest of bedfellows sharing the same room. Hon. Members below the Gangway are asking the House to place the management of the Great Western and Southern Railway under the management of the Great Western of England on the ground that we alone know how to treat our men with justice and equity. Hon. Members below the Gangway opposite are praying the House to reject the Bill because we have no such sense either of justice or equity. I should like to place the House in possession of the facts, as I know them, concerning the strike at Fishguard last June. Both the hon. Member (Mr. Barnes) and I are somewhat at a disadvantage, because he apparently is relying on a written statement that has quite recently been put into his hands. He speaks without first-hand knowledge, and I have no knowledge at all that this particular form of opposition was coming up until half-past four this afternoon, so I also have to rely very largely on information which has been put into my hands, although I have a certain first-hand recollection of what took place last summer. I want to clear the ground first of all by trying to show that the Great Western Railway attempted to deal justly and fairly by its men. The first point to be remembered is that the men at Fishguard are not on the permanent staff of the railway. They are quayside labourers, a few of whom have been for a long time in the service of the company, and the work which is being done is the ordinary, comparatively unskilled work of the quayside labourer. In 1911, the year of the great railway strikes, there was a short strike there without notice, and the wages of the men were raised substantially. After that the work proceeded fairly comfortably and regularly until May of last year, when fresh demands were put forward for the betterment of the men's conditions. The demands in their entirety the railway company felt themselves unable to concede, but they moved a considerable way to meet their men, and they offered higher rates for overtime, and what is a very important point, they offered to make the men permanent members of the uniform staff, and they offered to help in the setting up of a conciliation board. The reason they did this was that they were very anxious to get as many of their men as possible into a constitutional relationship with the railway company. By getting into the conciliation board they would be able to bring their demands up regularly to Paddington, where they could be duly considered, and the men would be able to be represented by their secretary. I am sure anyone who is familiar with the working of the boards on the Great Western Railway will agree with me that the Great Western Railway has attempted to carry out, not only the law, but the spirit of the conciliation movement from the moment those boards were first instituted.

These terms were immediately rejected by the men, and I thought they were very ill-advised to do that. Just as hon. Members below the Gangway feel confident that if the Great Western managed the Great Southern and Western it would be a sort of Kingdom of Heaven on earth, so I feel confident that if this rather unhappy strike had been under the control of some of the hon. Members I see before me, we should have had a settlement, and these terms would not have been rejected. But that is neither here nor there. The terms were rejected, and the men went out. The railway company are under a statutory obligation to carry on the service, and they had to get men to do it. They got a number of men in, and they put up a notice saying that the men who had left their work had thereby discharged themselves from the company's service, and they were justified in so doing. But the company were not anxious that this trouble should go on a moment longer than was necessary, and they put up a notice a fortnight later, on 7th July, saying that any man who chose to apply for work at the current rate could make application to be taken on. Practically the whole of the men—the old men—did thus make application, by which, I take it, they waived consideration of the subjects that had caused the strike. Here, again, I am advised one thing, and the hon. Member (Mr. Barnes) is advised another. I am advised that no promise of any kind was made as to reinstatement. This coming back to work was not a matter of negotiation, but of men applying in response to a notice which was put up. As to the numbers which the hon. Member quoted, I think he is quite correct, and it is true that three men were not taken back. Where I think he is in error is in saying that we pursued any of these men that we did not find work for with a vindictive spirit. We pursued them in no spirit at all, either of vindictiveness or of interested affection. People who manage railways have a good deal more to do than to follow the fate of men all over the country-side. When I was busy in works, I had plenty to occupy myself with without wondering what would happen to the men who had left my service, unless they were people with whom one had been tied by many years of service. I deny entirely on behalf of the railway company that they pursued any of these men, or made any request to the contractors to discharge them. Of course we have not had time to investigate this matter to the bottom, but we telephoned to the contractors this afternoon, and asked if there was any proof in the statement that they had discharged this man, and they said no, he had left of his own accord. Beyond that I can say nothing, for I have no knowledge. I regret very much that pressure from a sensible and judicious quarter was not brought to bear from the Labour interest on the men at the time of the strike to get them to throw their lot in with nearly all their colleagues on the railway, and give a fair trial to the Conciliation Board system. I am quite sure that the continuation of the Conciliation Board system, with whatever modification maybe proved necessary as time goes on to adjust their interest perhaps of one side or perhaps of the other, is a matter of the very first importance to the maintenance of any kind of peace at present between the employers and the employés.

With regard to the three questions asked by the hon. Member, the first was as to the right of combination, whether the Great Western Railway put any obstacles in the way of our men combining, or whether we victimise them for combination. We have never put the slightest difficulty in the way of their combining, and I am not aware that we ever victimised them for having combined. I think that the history of our relations with our men during the last few very critical years is a sufficient answer to that question. The second question was whether any obstacle would be put in the way of the man Fitzmaurice getting employment. We have put no obstacle at all in his way. That question was asked because it was said that it was owing to us that he was discharged by the contractors after leaving our service. We have no intention of putting any obstacle in his way, wherever he may try to get work. With reference to the harbour works, that opens up a larger question, and I cannot answer it here definitely. I would only say, speaking after very short consideration, that it seems to me a point that only would have been put by the hon. Member when he, to use his own candid expression, was trying to bargain. Fishguard is in the country, and although I have not been there myself, I am advised that there is any amount of room where men can meet. I do not think that the difficulty which the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division alluded to about accessibility of the men, is a point that really carries serious weight. If the hon. Member wants a definite and considered reply to that question, I think it should be formally put to the general manager of the Great Western Railway, when it would receive due consideration. I do not use that phrase "due consideration" merely to appease anyone, or to say that the request would be granted. I do not know, and I cannot say. My own impression is that I rather doubt whether it would be granted. I have endeavoured to answer the three questions as straight as I can, and I have given such reasons as should help to guide the House in coming to a decision in this matter. I hope they will see their way to give the Bill a Second Reading.

Perhaps the House will permit me to make a few statements on the issue before the House from the point of view of the Board of Trade. For the information of hon. Members who may not have heard the whole Debate, I would say that a Bill of the same purport as this was thrown out last year by a considerable majority as the result of the putting forward of certain grievances in regard to the management of the Irish section of the joint enterprise. The same grievances have been put forward to-night, and the hon. Member opposite argued very ably to the effect that the Great Western Company of England is finding all the capital for this Bill, whereas the Irish company last year found some of the capital. He argued that in terms of the Bills of 1898 and 1899 the Great Western Company is responsible for the management of the Irish portion of the Fishguard line. I think it has been shown by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Worcestershire (Mr. Wilson) that he is quite mistaken in his contention, although he put his case very skilfully. I think his argument comes to this: He does not dispute that in regard to the Bills of 1898 and 1899 it was recognised by the Hybrid Committee and by the Private Bill Committee that the agreement was that the Irish company should manage the Irish line. That was, by consent, put into the second Bill, and it was only for technical reasons that it was not put in the Bill of 1898. The hon. Member said, granting that that was the agreement, the Great Western Company is to have four directors as against three directors from the Irish company. He argued that the House of Commons was asked to assent to the proposal that the Great Western Company should control the Irish line. I do not think he can argue that that was intended in view of the agreement which was embodied in the Bill. He asked what was the meaning of giving four directors to the English company and only three to the Irish company. I think the answer to that emerged from his own argument. It appeared to the House that the Irish company would be in an unduly monopolist position, and might be able to control the whole of the through traffic. I think the idea of giving four directors to the English company was that that company should have a sort of casting vote as to through traffic, but it obviously was not intended that the four directors given to the English company meant that that company should manage the Irish line. The hon. Member opposite seemed to think that it was not exactly a Home Rule argument that the English company should have four directors. I do not for a moment, take any side on the merits of that dispute.

The hon. Member for North Worcestershire has given his assurance that practically all that can be done has been done by the Great Western, and if any sins have been committed by the Irish company, it is the Irish company that is responsible. I do not think it would be quite fair once again to penalise the English company on that score. I think the hon. Member for Queen's County will admit that the assurance given by the hon. Member for North Worcestershire practically removes. The ground for fear that this is a rival enterprise which would be dangerous to the interests of the harbour at Queenstown. Since that is the only matter in respect of which there is any real grievance against the Great Western Company, I venture to hope that hon. Members will not continue to oppose this Bill as they did last year, when the facts were not so fully brought out as they have been to-night. With regard to the grievance referred to by the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division, I think he will agree that the dispute has been brought to a comparatively small issue. It is said there is only one man who has been penalised. If he admits that in general the relations between labour and the Great Western Company have not been of a very hostile character, I think I might ask him to waive his opposition to the Bill at this stage, and try to gain his ends by making representations to the company. I may point out to the House that if the Bill is again thrown out there is no security that any good will be done as regards the management of the Irish company, and I do not think there is any special security that what is still left in dispute upon the English side will be instantly settled. It is a serious thing that these works may ultimately be left derelict. No man in the House desires that. From the point of view of the Board of Trade it is most desirable that the enterprise should be allowed to go-forward.

Amendment negatived.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed.

Supply.—[1st Allotted Day.]

Civil Services and Revenue Departments, 1914–15

(VOTE ON ACCOUNT.)

Considered in Committee.

National Insurance Act

Postponed Proceeding resumed on Question proposed on Consideration of Question, "That a sum, not exceeding £34,705,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charges for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1915."

Question again proposed, "That Class VII., Vote 2 (National Health Insurance Joint Committee) be reduced by £100."—[ Mr. Worthington-Evans. ]

When the Debate was interrupted, I was proceeding to give an illustration of the effect of the Act in the case of some thousands of very poor people who are members of a society with which I am associated. The annual meeting of that society took place a few months ago, and it was shown by the returns presented that there were some 45,000 paying members. Fourteen thousand of that number had, during the working of the Act, received benefit from it. They received a total greater than the whole of the contributions paid by the 45,000 ever since the first of them was compelled to pay a penny from the beginning of this new insurance scheme. I therefore say that a considerable number by this time, I suppose somewhere between 40 per cent, and 50 per cent, of the insured persons—I am making just a rough guess as I have seen no figures—must have received benefits as a result of their enforced insurance under that section. Therefore it cannot be alleged that they are not getting value for their money. Fourteen thousand in a short time received collectively a larger sum than was paid during the whole period of the Act by the total number of members who were compelled to pay to it. Undoubtedly there is yet some sense of loss or grievance on the part of those who have not received benefits. They are persons who have not been trained in what insurance means, and hon. Gentlemen opposite will not tell them what it means. As a fact the man who has not had cause to receive benefit from this scheme, though compelled to pay to it, may be classed as the more fortunate man.

The insurance is a pooling of interests, and it must be an aggregating of sacrifice in order that certain risks should be met, and if a man does not fall ill and does not become disabled, and if he is not compelled to visit the doctor as a sick individual he may class himself as a fortunately insured person; but it is recognised that until people are unfortunate, until people meet with the misfortunes against which this Act insures them there will be a certain feeling of loss which will be encouraged by the speeches of hon. Gentlemen opposite with regard to the sacrifices that these men are required to make. It will be admitted that our party are entitled to speak for the poor, and in answer to what was said by the hon. Member for one of the Nottingham Divisions we say that this is no tax upon the poor. It is a payment which takes the place of other payments that they were compelled to pay before this scheme was instituted. What they pay in insurance takes the form of a small sum deducted from their weekly earnings. It is not any additional financial burden. In exchange for the 4d. a week deducted from their money they will save the doctor's bill; they have not to pay for medicine, they have not to pay many of the charges which formerly fell upon them. So that in medicine, maternity benefit, money, and various other forms of aid provided by this Act they are receiving a very substantial return for the small weekly sum which the Act compels them to pay.

For our part we would have liked to have seen the Act relieve altogether the poorly paid wage-earners of any burden which this Act imposes, but when we did propose that the very poor, those whose wages were, say, below 25s. per week should be relieved, and that the State should give them free insurance, we got no assistance whatever from hon. Gentlemen who are now sympathising with this class over the burden which they allege rests on their shoulders, It was said by the hon. Member for Nottingham that in the case of many women employed in the division which he represents there is a poor class of employer, and that to make that poor class of employer pay financial contribution is, not only a financial burden to him, but a considerable danger to the industry itself. If to any extent that statement is true the hon. Member can never look to his Leader for the prospect of any relief for those employers, for in one of those delightful interjections which the House receives at times from the Leader of the Opposition the country was informed the other night that in all circumstances, even under a system of voluntary insurance, the employer is to be compelled to pay for all his workpeople, whether they agree to be insured or not. So that no kind of relief can be looked for from that quarter in regard to the poor overburdened employer who had this Act imposed upon him. May I remind the House that the relief for the poor class of employer was not sought by hon. Gentlemen opposite when they had the chance to vote against the Second Reading of the Bill or against the Third Reading of the Bill. After months of work in this House the Opposition did not go into the lobby against the Third Reading of the Bill. They wished to claim a share of the credit of passing an Act if it were very popular and successful, and at the same time they wanted to keep themselves in a position to criticise and attack the measure if they found that it was unpopular.

The hon. Gentleman must address his observations to the administration of the Act, which is the question before the Committee.

I am sorry I have transgressed, and I will not pursue those observations further. I want merely to say, as I did in the earlier part of my speech, that the officials of trade unions, especially those connected with the trade organisations representing the lower paid labouring classes, have necessarily not had experience of the difficulties of working a great Act, and I trust that the observations made by some of my colleagues in the earlier part of this Debate, may receive some attention from the Government. We recognise that an immense scheme like this, involving so many millions of persons, and so many millions of pounds a year, cannot be expected to work with perfect smoothness in the course of a year or two, and we cannot see any advantage other than a party advantage which is to be gained by pressing for an immediate inquiry into the working of the Act. The persons who have to administer this Act are in the country. The Act is not administered from a State office here in London. The Act is administered by the secretaries and officials of hundreds and thousands of different branches of trade unions and friendly societies throughout the country. It is really administered by men who, generally speaking, have not been trained for the purpose of administering such measures. The ordinary branch secretary has not been brought up as an administrator of a scheme like that of the National Insurance Act, but possibly in time the secretaries and officials will overcome difficulties and be able to discharge their duties satisfactorily; and in those days they and those associated with them may look to hon. Gentlemen opposite, should they be in charge of the administration, for the fulfilment of some of those promises which they have held out to the working classes of the country.

The hon. Gentleman began to enter upon a larger subject, and, if he had been allowed to pursue it, I should have welcomed the opportunity of saying something on the question which was debated on Wednesday night. I understand that would be out of order on the present occasion, but I trust hon. Gentlemen opposite will realise, if I do not touch upon it, that it is not because I am not able to meet anything that they may bring against us in regard to the attitude we have taken. I hope that the time will come when I shall have the opportunity of saying what I consider on the point. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans), who moved this reduction in a very able speech, which I think commanded—compelled—the attention of the whole House, said that the problem which he brought before us was a very serious one, and I think the course of the Debate has shown that that view is shared by the House as a whole, with the single exception of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who made great play with some doggerel verse to which he apparently attributed greater power than he gives to his own colleague the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. I think everyone who has spoken to-day has dealt seriously with a very grave problem. The problem which my hon. Friend asks the House to consider is this: Ought we not to do something, and to do something soon, to meet the tendency towards the deficiency which is manifest in some of the districts which are administering the Act? I do not think you could have a more serious problem than that, and I think that my hon. Friend made out a perfectly clear case, not only to-day, but on Wednesday last, that there is, at any rate, some ground for alarm. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer a perfectly plain question. To that question the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have given a perfectly plain answer, and he would have given it if the Government actuary had been sufficiently sure of the financial stability of the scheme to enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say what he wanted. We still should like to know what is the real opinion of the actuarial adviser of the Government with regard to the financial status of these societies. I confess this Debate has not removed the apprehension which is present to my mind, at any rate, with regard to this matter. Indeed, the statement which fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself has only accentuated the grave doubts which I entertain. The right hon. Gentleman, if he had been able to prove by figures and by a considered statement that there was no ground for alarm, why cannot the whole House see him standing at that box rejoicing in his own peculiar manner, and pitching into us for having dared to doubt that the scheme was solvent. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, so far from doing that, actually admitted that some of the societies have gone a very considerable way on the path towards insolvency. I think that throws a strange light, a strange commentary, on the speech which was made by the First Lord of the Admiralty in the autumn, in which, commenting on the statement which the Leader of the Opposition made at Norwich, in which he first raised this question, he said it was a cruel and monstrous thing towards insured people that anyone should get up and pass doubts on the solvency of the societies to which they belonged. The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows that some of these societies are marching towards insolvency, and I say it is infinitely more cruel in the interests of the insured persons, knowing the tendency of those societies, not to take steps to meet, it at once.

We are told that our suggestions cannot be verified before the date of the first valuation, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that the date appointed for that valuation had not yet arrived. As my hon. Friend pointed out, there is no date appointed for a valuation. It rests entirely within the discretion of the Commissioners. They can have a valuation now; they can have one at any time they please in the future, and if they have reason to believe that some of the societies are threatened with instability, I should have thought it was their duty to take steps to have a valuation made as early as possible. We are told that it cannot be done. The Commissioners have in their own office now information with regard to something like a hundred societies which would enable them to have this valuation completed in the course of a few days. We are told that it is a cruel thing to have the valuation made now, because it would cast a stigma upon these societies. But it you do not do it now, you will do it whenever you have the valuation—say, two years hence. Every day you put the matter off you increase the burden which will ultimately fall upon the members of these societies. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and other Members have said that we have no real information with regard to this matter—no real information. No reliable information. Why, you have only to read the speeches which have been made for months past by those who are responsible for the administration and conduct of these approved societies to have the information forced down your throat. How conies it that men like the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. J. Samuel) and others seem to pay no regard to the assertions and declared opinions of people such as those to whom I have just alluded?

What I said was that that there is nobody in a position to know what the actual state of affairs are.

I understand from the hon. Gentleman that, in his opinion, people engaged in carrying out in detail the work of the approved societies are not in a position to know whether or not the claims made upon their funds are in excess of the actuarial calculations.

Then the hon. Gentleman does not understand the whole point of my argument.

I do not think that that is a fair representation of what I said. I said that it is the experience of all insurance companies that you may have in one year a very excessive claim rate, but that in the following years of the period, at the end of which the companies have to make a valuation, they may retrieve their position. I pointed out that, although this year there may be a very heavy claim rate upon some of the societies, in the next two years, before they have to make a valuation, they will have greater experience of the working of the Act, and they may retrieve their position.

The hon. Member surely does not suppose that these were all brand-new societies, starting without experience and having nothing by which to compare their present rate of sickness pay! The hon. Member surely forgets that the great bulk of approved societies have a voluntary side, as well as a State side, and that they are able to check the rate of their sickness pay by the corresponding rates of the claims from their voluntary side. There are millions of insured persons who are members on the voluntary side as well as on the State side in these societies. Those who are responsible for the administration of them are able to check the severity of the sickness claims upon the State side by comparison with the claims upon their voluntary side. The hon. Member for Stockton talks about the difficulty of understanding actuarial calculations. Those who are responsible for the administration of these societies have not got that difficulty. Why the whole actuarial basis on which these claims rest was taken from the experience of one of the greatest of the voluntary associations, the Manchester Unity of Oddfellows; and if you find the Grand Master of the Manchester Unity of Oddfellows, impressed by the danger which threatens not only his society, but other societies, publicly expressing regret that his society has ever had anything to do with the administration of this Act, as he has done—

Is the man who is responsible for the conduct of the society on whose experience you base the whole of your financial arrangements to be dismissed as being only one? Hon. Members in all quarters of the House know better. They know that this complaint is right. They know perfectly well that it is not unfounded. If the tendency towards increase over expectations is revealed in increased claims upon the voluntary as opposed to the State fund, if coupled with that you find, the destruction of the old spirit, you have a phenomenon which you are bound to take note of at the earliest possible moment. If the present experience as regards the voluntary side of these societies shows that the old experience is no true test, then the whole financial basis of the present scheme is unsound, and its defects threatens the whole fabric of the national scheme. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, commenting upon some remarks that fell from my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson)—who made a singularly well-informed speech—with regard to sanatorium benefit, said that on the whole it had worked splendidly; so many people had been treated in the institutions and so many at home. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that no one could expect that the whole chain of sanatoria and dispensaries were going to be erected in the course of eighteen months.

Nobody does expect that a whole chain of sanatoria and dispensaries can be erected in the course of eighteen months, but after what the right hon. Gentleman told the House of Commons and the country, we have some reason to wonder that only the sum of £88,000 out of one and a-half millions should have been provided for the erection of sanatoria. He told us to-day that you could not expect local authorities to act with all the speed that one would like to see; but he never told us at the time that he set the one and a-half million pounds aside for the erection of sanatoria; that he depended upon the local authorities. This million and a-half was set aside for the provision of sanatoria. I think that some of us have reason to complain that a little more expedition has not been shown by the Government, if not by the local authorities, in the provision of buildings in this country to which patients could be sent. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us of the great number that were receiving treatment in their own homes. We know something of the treatment in their own homes, and we know how lamentably short it has fallen. In the case of my own county of Kent, which has done most valuable work in the administration of this Act, the fund for the provision of sanatorium benefit fell so lamentably short that the tuberculosis officer was compelled to write round to those who were in receipt of domiciliary treatment saying that the fund had given out and he had not the wherewithal to continue the treatment. Why is this fund so short? There is one reason why it is insufficient, and it is a reason com- mented on by the Chairman of the Association of Scottish Insurance Committees at the first annual meeting in October. He said:—

I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman opposite in his view that we are dealing with a serious problem, and, at any rate, there is that much in common between us. The Leader of the Opposition made a very definite and a very sensational speech this afternoon, and he, at any rate, is perfectly confident that the financial provisions of the Insurance Act have broken down. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] His statement was made at large that the financial provisions of the Insurance Act have broken down. The hon. Gentleman opposite calls that a tendency to deficiency, but that is not quite the same thing. Then the hon. Gentleman goes on to say that no one has alleged that general insolvency threatens these societies. If that is so, I entirely misunderstood the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. I quite agree that the right hon. Gentleman did not say how the Act had broken down, but he stated that he knows that it has broken down, and he is also equally confident that we are hiding that fact from the poor people whom we deluded. I know that confidence, because it once took the form of a very definite statement made standing at that box in which the Leader of the Opposition told us emphatically that this Act would never come into operation. I recall the words of a great statesman, who taught us that "prophecy is the most gratuitous form of error." I think Lord Beaconsfield must have specially coined that phrase for the edification of his successors. I observed that the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans) is equally confident of his prediction on this question of insolvency, but he does not say that the whole of the Act is insolvent. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who said so?"] Why, it is a commonplace on Unionist platforms and in the Unionist Press that this Act is insolvent. [HON. MEMBERS: "Quote," and "Mention one."] They have been telling us that the Act is bound to end in final cataclysm. The Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans) thinks that some of the men's societies, and a good many of the women's societies, will prove insolvent, and that they will need reduced benefits or increased contributions at the first valuation. He is quite confident about that. I think that I know that confidence, too. I remember very well that we were told, with confidence, by the hon. Member that there would be from 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 deposit contributors.

So there will be as soon as you have got the arrears calls going, but you have dodged them.

As I understand the figures, there are less than 500,000. Still, these hon. Members, quite unabashed, turn to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and charge him with inaccuracy. I do think the climax of audacity is to charge us with directing the administration of the Act to serve party purposes. I understand from hon. Members that we have permitted the carrying forward of administration charges for the first year in order to serve party ends, and that we have so dealt with the question of arrears as to make sure that we are serving party ends. Well, really, I do think that it requires a very special kind of hardihood—you will permit me to express my view of it—to get up on those benches and talk about Using the Insurance Act for party purposes. What about our taking the hard-earned wages of these poor people, whilst at the same time we vote ourselves £400 a year. What about that famous thirteen points leaflet? "These people ought to have sickness benefit from the first day"—that was suggested—" and the thing is really a fraud if they do not. The wives and children ought to have medical benefit. You young men under twenty-one ought to have full benefit. You old men over seventy ought to have full benefit. You ought to get death benefits and funeral benefits. You should not have to wait two years for disablement allowance. You ought to get sickness benefit as well as hurt pay under the Workmen's Compensation Act." That little calculation amounts to something like £13,000,000 a year. When we brought in a little Bill last year, this is the statement the Leader of the Opposition made on the Second Reading:—

"The Bill we are considering to-night is admitted to be—it was almost admitted by the right hon. Gentleman who spoke earlier—simply a tinkering with this question; a tinkering which, in my belief, can never really deal with the problems with which the Government is now faced. Though this Bill is merely a perfunctory attempt to deal with them, it is in one sense a serious measure. It is serious from the point of view of the amount of money involved. As the House knows this Bill means an additional expenditure partly drawn from the State and partly imposed upon the Insurance Fund of something like £1,000,000 a year."

and later the right hon. Gentleman said:

"Where is this going to end?"

It will not do for the Leader of the Opposition to boggle at a million and for his followers to go about the country throwing about £13,000,000. I put this in the interest of financial solvency. There are certain hon. Gentlemen who have seen that leaflet before. This Act has been about nineteen months in operation, and I think that it is the greatest scheme of State intervention into the condition of the people that we have ever seen in this country.

Really I must point out to the right hon. Gentleman—as I have done to other hon. Gentlemen—that we are only dealing with the administration of the Act, and particularly with the question of an early actuarial valuation.

Yes, and I have done my best to reply to the criticisms made from the other side. I will pursue the matter no further. The Act has done one thing. In nineteen short months it has doubled the number of working people in the country with some provision for a rainy day. It was, of course, inevitable in a scheme so sweeping, so comprehensive, and so complex, touching the lives of thirteen and three quarter millions of people, difficulties of application and adaptation were bound to arise. But I say this quite dispassionately. When I look at the whole thing and consider the tremendously complicated character of the scheme and its sweeping inclusions, I am honestly amazed that in so short a time this thing should be working so smoothly as it is. I say its smooth working is a fine tribute to the shrewd good sense of the working people of this country, it is a fine tribute to the patriotism of the employers of labour generally, and it is a fine tribute to the devotion of the public servants who have been charged with the administration of it.

I want to say this also—I have said it in the country—I do resent with contempt the attitude of a good many people who should have known better towards the working of this Act. Practically everything we have done we have done in the teeth of nagging and carping criticism. Every individual case of delay, of misunderstanding, of miscarriage, has been seized hold of and dressed up in startling headlines, peppered with notes of exclamation. The cartoonists have dipped their pens in venom; the speakers have charged their lips with rancour; every single case in which the machinery of this Act has not worked with precision and with promptitude has been thrown on the largest screen in the brightest light. It is true that under this Act half a million of people are getting medical benefit every week, it is true that a quarter of a million are getting sick pay every week, and it is true that 18,000 times thirty shillings are going week by week to the young Britisher to give him a better chance. But notwithstanding all these things, every case of a lost card, every case where prompt attention has not been given, every case in which a consumptive is not promptly sent to a sanatorium—on every single occasion of that kind the Act is described as a fraud and a failure. Let me say this, that the poor people who eighteen months ago were to be frightened by emphatic assurances that the benefits were a myth, a delusion and a snare, are now, if you please, as I understand it, to be frightened by equally confident predictions that those benefits will never last after the first valuation. Of course, we must watch the administration of this great and beneficial Act, and the friends of the Act are in a better position to do that than its enemies. We must certainly watch it in solicitude and care. No doubt experience is bound to show, as we go on, that here and there its details may need touching up. Although I cannot go into that, the German insurance law has been amended eight times, and the German invalidity law has been amended three times. It is our duty to these poor people, as experience is gained, to watch whether this thing is not quite working with all the adaptability that one could desire, and to make whatever further adjustment in this complex machinery that experience shows may be necessary. But this much is certain, that compulsory State insurance is as sure a feature of our social system as compulsory State education. I cannot go into that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Never mind the Chair!"] I do think the sooner we give up all this nonsense—[Interruptions]—of always supposing you can recast this scheme upon

a voluntary basis the better for the people insured. I would appeal to men of all parties to join in friendly rivalry for the best way to make this thing, in all its thousand details, a more effective instrument for the national good.

Before we go to a Division I want to make one suggestion for carrying out the Act. In view of the fact that the hon. Member for Colchester has charged the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Act with being a fraud, it is time something was said from these Benches. These charges of fraud which the hon. Member and his Friends have been casting about will have to be dealt with in a much more drastic manner than has yet been the case. The Government have a very simple way of dealing with the matter. Let them come down to the House with regard to the administration of this Act and say that for the future the State and the employers shall bear the whole burden of it. Then let the Government go to the country, and where will hon. Members opposite be? Hon. Members opposite have had a smile on their faces during the time that their friends were speaking, but when they, in the country or in their Press, say they have a real desire to give insurance to the workingmen, as they did when the Bill was first introduced, they know that what they are saying is not true and that they are saying it for party purposes.

Question put, "That Item Class VII. (National Health Insurance Joint Committee) be reduced by £100."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 174: Noes, 242.

It being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order 15, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Vote.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Whereupon the Chairman left the Chair, to make his report to the House.

Resolution to be reported upon Monday next (9th March); Committee to sit upon Monday next.

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

Adjourned at Twelve minutes after Eleven O'clock.