House of Commons
Monday, March 9, 1914
Private Business
Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Upper Medway Navigation and Conservancy Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be committed.
Private Bill [ Lords ] (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, introduced pursuant to the provisions of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, and which the Chairman of Ways and Means had directed to originate in the House of Lords, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—
Glasgow Corporation (Water, Tramways, etc.) Bill.
Private Bill Petitions (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Reports from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—
London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill.
Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Mall Approach Improvement Bill (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 4th day of March, That, in the case of the follow- ing Bill, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—
Mall Approach Improvement Bill.
Northern Junction Railway Bill (by Order),
Middlesex County Council (Western Road and Improvements and Finance) Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
Northwich Urban District Council Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Weymouth and Melcombe Regis Corporation Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
Taff Vale Railway Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday, at a Quarter-past Eight of the clock.
South Suburban Gas Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday, 23rd March.
Glasgow Corporation (Celluloid) Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday, at a Quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Metropolitan and Great Northern Railway Companies Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
Rhondda and Swansea Bay Railway Bill (by Order),
Read a second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Lurgan Gas and Electricity Bill (by Order).
Second reading deferred till Monday next.
Market Rasen Water Bill (by Order),
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this Bill be now read a second time."
I object.
Perhaps the hon. Member is not aware that this matter has been the subject of a conference, and that the proposed Instruction has been agreed
In those circumstances I withdraw my objection.
Question put, and agreed to. Bill read a second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
London County Council (General Powers) Bill (by Order),
City of London (Various Powers) Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday, at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Scottish Insurance Companies (Superannuation Fund) Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ],
Third Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 21) Bill (by Order),
Third Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
"To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Bromley and East and West Molesey." Presented by Mr. HERBERT LEWIS; supported by Mr. Herbert Samuel; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 102.]
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
"To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Cardiff, Haverfordwest, Maryport, and Southampton, and the North Bierley Joint Hospital District." Presented by Mr. HERBERT LEWIS; supported by Mr. Herbert Samuel; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 103.]
Factory and Workshop (Schemes for Regulation of Hours of Employment, Etc., in Charitable Institutions)
Copy presented of Scheme approved by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in pursuance of Section 5 (2) ( a ) of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1907, for the Regulation of the Hours of Employment, Interval for Meals, and Holidays, in respect of the Magdalen Asylum, Convent of the Good Shepherd, Sunday's Well, Cork, in substitution for the Scheme approved on 2nd January, 1909 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Scheme approved by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in pursuance of Section 5 (2) ( a ) of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1907, for the Regulation of the Hours of Employment and Intervals for Meals and Rest in respect of the Institution of the Church Army, at Queen Elizabeth Lodge, Old Southgate [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Penal Servitude Acts (Condi Tional Licence)
Copy presented of Licence granted to a Convict discharging her from Aylesbury Convict Prison on condition that she enters a home [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Burghs (Areas and Rates) (Scotland)
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 14th August, 1913; Mr. Charles Price ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
University of Glasgow
Copy presented of Abstract of Accounts of the University of Glasgow for the year 1912–13 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Panama Canal (Tonnage Measurements)
Copy presented of Rules for the Measurement of Vessels for the Panama Canal (Proclamation by the President of the United States of America) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Midwives Act, 1902
Copy presented of Report on the Work of the Central Midwives Board for the year ended 31st March, 1911 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Army (Special Reserve)
Copy presented of Interim Report of Committee on the Special Reserve, 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Crystal Palace Bill
Copy presented of Report of the Attorney-General on the Bill [presented pursuant to Standing Order 175 a ]; referred to the Committee on the Bill.
Lunacy
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—Return of all sums received by the Visitors of Lunatics for travelling expenses, or upon any other account, from 1st January to 31st December, 1913 [by Act].
Government of Ireland Bill
Return ordered, "showing Government Proposals in connection with the Government of Ireland Bill."— [ The Prime Minister. ]
Return presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 143.]
Export of Coal
Return ordered, "giving the quantities of coal exported from each of the ports of the United Kingdom, by quarterly periods in 1913, at prices not exceeding 5s., above 5s. but not exceeding 6s., above 6s., but not exceeding 7s., and so on, with comparative totals for 1908–12 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 91, of Session 1913)."—[ Mr. Samuel Roberts. ]
Ireland (Average Prices)
Returned ordered, "showing, as far as practicable, for Ireland as a whole (1) the annual Average Prices for each year 1881 to 1912; (2) the annual Average Prices for each period comprised in the period 1881 to 1912 of five years, ten years, fifteen years, twenty years, and twenty-five years, and for the period of five years 1908 to 1912; such prices to be compiled from the Returns of Prices of crops, live stock, and other Irish agricultural products heretofore published from time to time by the Irish Land Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland, or from other information in the possession of those departments."—[ Mr. Newman. ]
Agricultural and Trade De Velopment (United Kingdom, Germany, and United States)
Return ordered, "showing for the year 1913, or latest year available, and a year twenty years earlier, for the United Kingdom, Germany, and the United States of America, the following information, namely:—
(1) Cultivated area under principal and other crops;
(2) Quantity of wheat, barley, oats, rye, and potatoes produced;
(3) Quantity of pig iron, crude steel, and coal produced, and of pig iron and coal consumed;
(4) Value of imports and exports (special trade) distinguishing separately "raw materials" and "manufactures";
(5) Receipts from railway goods traffic, total, and per mile of line;
(6) Total estimated population at the middle of the year;
showing also the percentage increase under each head between the two years specified."—[ Mr. Amery. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
China (Oil Concessions)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Chinese Government has granted concessions for oil to the Standard Oil Company, and, if so, what is their nature and extent; do they affect the province of Szechuan; whether His Majesty's Government will impress upon the Chinese Government that Article 9 of the 1902 Mackay Treaty should be carried into practicable and workable effect at once; whether, recently, agreements giving concessions to Belgian, French, Japanese, American, and Russian syndicates have been entered into or granted for working oil, iron, and coal fields in China; whether concessions of a similar nature have been granted to other nationalities; whether the British Minister completed on the 24th February important conversations with the Chinese Government to the effect that China reaffirms the predominance of England in the Yangtze Valley; and, if so, will His Majesty's Government give its support and assistance for the working of the mines and industries covered by the charter granted as to the province of Szechuan, the most important province in the Yangtze Valley, in preference to securing compensation from the Chinese Government in respect of the attempted cancellation of that charter?
According to the information of His Majesty's Government the answer to the first question is in the affirmative, the concession embracing the province of Shensi and the districts of Chienchang in Chihli. So far as His Majesty's Government are aware the concession does not affect the province of Szechuan. With regard to the third question, His Majesty's Legation during the last eleven years have taken every opportunity, and will continue to do so, of impressing upon the Chinese authorities the necessity, in the interests of China herself, of developing the mineral resources of the country in accordance with the provisions of the Mackay Treaty. With regard to the fourth and fifth questions, His Majesty's Government have no knowledge of concessions having been granted except to the Standard Oil Company as already mentioned. With regard to the sixth part of the question His Majesty's Government, having had tinder their consideration the question of railway and industrial development in the Yangtsze Valley, and the claims to which our predominant commercial and economic interests in that region entitle us, a communication to this effect has been made to the Chinese Government. As regards the last part of the question, His Majesty's Government are awaiting a communication from the Chinese Government as to whether they will make a fresh offer of compensation for the cancellation of the Szechuan concession. If an arrangement can be made with the Chinese Government for a modification of the original contract or its exchange for another contract His Majesty's Government would see no objection to such an arrangement being made instead of the claim of compensation being pressed.
Persia (Coronation of Shah)
asked whether the date has yet been fixed for the coronation of the Shah of Persia; and if the Persian Parliament will have assembled and its members have taken the oath of allegiance prior to that event?
I have been officially informed that the date of the Shah's coronation will be 21st July next. I cannot say whether the Persian Parliament will assemble before that day.
Portuguese West Africa
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether civil administration has been withdrawn from the San Salvador and San Antonia districts of Portuguese West Africa; and whether he can state the number of British subjects resident in these areas?
According to a dispatch, received from the British Consul at Loanda on February 13th, the Governor-General of Portuguese West Africa has set up a military instead of a civil organisation in the districts named. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
asked whether any treaty exists by which Great Britain is entitled to proclaim consular jurisdiction over British subjects resident in that part of the conventional basin of the Congo in which civil administration has been replaced by martial law by the Portuguese Government?
:No treaty exists between Great Britain and Portugal which confers a right on the former to exercise extra-territorial jurisdiction over British subjects in any part of the Portuguese dominions.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further information with reference to the arrest of the Rev. Mr. Bowskill?
In a telegram dated from Boma, 6th March, the Acting British Consul reports that Mr. Bowskill, who was at San Salvador, to which place the Acting Consul could not proceed owing to the rebellion, would be released on the arrival of the Governor, who was on his way to that place with soldiers. Mr. Bell adds that the mission was not considered to be in danger.
Is telegraphic communication now in existence between San Salvador and this country?
No.
Is there any truth in the statement that Mr. Bowskill has been released?
Not to our knowledge.
New Hebrides
asked when His Majesty's Government proposed a Conference to the French Government upon the New Hebrides dilemma; and whether the French Government has yet replied?
The first suggestions for a Conference were made last summer. Since then the French Government has asked us to state in greater detail the matters which it was desired to discuss. This was done in November, after consultation with the Governments of Australia and New Zealand, and we are hoping that the French Government may be able to agree that a Conference should meet at an early date.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will suggest to the French Government the appointment of a Joint Commission to report upon the working of the Condominium in the New Hebrides?
It has already been stated in this House on several occasions that His Majesty's Government are at present in communication with the French Government with a view to improve the working of the Condominium, and the facts are sufficiently well known to make it unnecessary to delay the Conference which His Majesty's Government hope may take place by obtaining further information in the manner suggested by my hon. Friend.
Mexico
asked whether Generals Carranza and Villa, leaders of the Constitutionalist party in Mexico, have been and are, with the approval of the States Department of the United States of America Government, large purchasers of rifles and cannon from that country for the prosecution of their campaign against the Federal Government; and whether the States Department have expressed an opinion that the participation of any non-American Power in the grant or guarantee of a loan to the Federal Government would be contrary to the spirit of the Monroe doctrine?
The Government of the United States have withdrawn the prohibition upon the export of arms to Mexico. I am not aware that they have otherwise expressed approval of purchases of arms, nor do I know what purchases have been made. So far as I am aware the answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the dissatisfaction that has found expression in every civilised country at the state of anarchy that is prevalent in the Mexican Republic has been brought to his notice; and, if so, whether he will bring his influence to bear on the States Department of the United States of America Government with a view to securing their recognition of the Federal Government at Mexico and of, under adequate guarantees, allowing President Huerta a free hand towards restoring order in the Republic?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but the Government of the United States have already declared their determination not to recognise the Presidency of General Huerta and made it evident that they do not regard this as the only alternative to the existing state of things. It would serve no useful purpose to make representations to them on this subject.
Albania
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information to give the House relative to the provisional Government that has been established in Northern Epirus with a view to preventing its forcible absorption in the principality of Albania?
The International Commission of Control received on 28th February a telegram from a Monsieur Zographos announcing his having been appointed, by a public meeting at Argyrocastro, President of the Provisional Government of autonomous Epirus. I have no other information concerning this alleged provisional Government.
Is it a fact that the only important port in Northern Epirus is blockaded?
I should like notice of that question. I believe that it is a fact.
England and America (Centenary of Treaty of Ghent)
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, in view of the approaching celebration of the centenary of the Treaty of Ghent and the completion of 100 years of peace among English-speaking peoples, and in view of the offer of the American people, through the American national committee for the celebration, to present a replica, of the St. Gauden's statue of Abraham Lincoln to the British people, His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of granting a site in the south-east corner of the Canning enclosure?
The First Commissioner will be glad to consider the suggestion if it is generally favoured.
May I ask if the First Commissioner will consider alternative sites for the statue which will not diminish the present area of grass space?
Oh, yes, Sir; certainly.
Royal Navy
Recruits
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the publicity given to His Majesty's Government to the nationality of Army recruits will be extended to naval recruits; whether the numbers of naval recruits for the Royal Navy according to the latest returns were 15,890 from England and Channel Islands, 603 from Scotland, 556 from Ireland, 243 from Wales, 3 from the Colonies, and 673 unclassified, making a total of 17,968; and which of the Scottish, Irish, and Welsh counties failed to contribute a single recruit for the Navy?
Returns have not hitherto been rendered of the nationality of officers and men throughout the whole Navy, as in the case of the Army. I have not heard any reasons to require an innovation. The figures given in the second part of the question are correct.
Coal and Oil, Fuel
asked whether the battleships of the "Royal Sovereign" class are designed for the use of coal fuel; whether the question of using oil fuel was considered, and, if so, when the decision in favour of coal fuel was come to?
These vessels use coal with oil as an auxiliary. Their design was settled by the Board of Admiralty in the regular course last year. Some reference to this subject was made in my statement to the House on the 17th July, 1913.
asked (1) what was the average price paid for coal per ton during the last two years for the Navy; and (2) whether the price in store in England of oil fuel for the Navy is above or below £4 per ton at the present rate?
I would refer the hon. Member to my general remarks on the subject of oil and coal prices in my speech in the House on the 3rd of this month.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not give the House something less general than he gave us the other day?
No, Sir.
Are there any large firms in this country paying considerably less for oil than the Admiralty is paying?
:I am afraid I am not familiar with the details of these other firms.
New Construction
asked whether the different accelerations promised with regard to heavy ship building will have the effect of adding to the strength of the Fleet three heavy battleships in lieu of the three that were expected from the Dominion of Canada by 1916?
I propose to deal fully with this question when I introduce the Navy Estimates for 1914–15.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when that day will be?
Questions on business should be addressed to the Leader of the House.
Royal Fleet Reserve
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the notices of training in 1914 (Royal Fleet Reserve, Classes A and B), calling out the Naval Reserves in these classes, excepting those who have already drilled before the 8th March, for eleven days' training in July, were not sent out before 27th February; why the Naval Reserves who presented themselves for training on Monday, 2nd March (the first and last possible day to enable them to complete their training by 8th March), were refused, and told they would have to put in their Fleet service in July for eleven days; whether he is aware that hitherto there has been no difficulty in arranging this training to suit the convenience of the men at, say, a week's notice; whether he will consider the position in which these men are placed, having regard to the fact that, being compelled to present themselves for training for eleven days in July, they run the risk of losing their employment; and what is the special reason for this July training that will exempt the men from training in 1915?
The notices were sent out on the 27th February, the intention being that men who had arranged to drill during the week ending the 7th March should do so, but that men should not drill after that date, the training in July being in lieu. I have no information as to men who presented themselves on the 2nd March being refused. The position of men with regard to their civil employment has been considered, and those who for good reasons are unable to attend in July should apply to their registrars for exemption. Men so exempted will drill under the ordinary regulations. I wish to add that the Admiralty attach great importance to as many Reservists as possible training for eleven days in July, and they hope that employers will be able to make the necessary arrangements. Men who train in July are exempted from training in 1915 in consideration of the July training being longer than the usual seven days, and also in order that employers may be relieved from again sparing the services of their employés next year. In a matter of this consequence, which is essential to an effective test of the mobilisation arrangements of the fleet, the Admiralty feel that they can count with confidence upon the patriotic co-operation, of all classes.
Contractors' List
asked whether Messrs. Stewarts and Lloyds, Coombs Wood Works, Halesowen, are on the list of contractors for metal tubing?
Messrs. Stewart and Lloyds, Limited, are on the Admiralty list for steel tubes, etc.
asked whether Messrs. Wheways, Green Lane, Walsall, and Messrs. Nosills, Green Lane, Walsall, are on the list of contractors for chain and cart gear goods?
The answer is in the negative.
Royal Dockyards (Promotion of Candidates)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that on the 27th and 28th October, 1904, an examination was held for first-class writers, now third grade clerks, in the Expense Accounts Department of His Majesty's dockyards; that since that date several promotions have been made, among them one of the men who failed to qualify at the examination in 1904 and one who never sat at any examination although eligible for years; and whether he will consider the possibility of promoting the men who are duly qualified but have received no promotion for over nine years?
The facts are as stated in the question. The reason is that a system of promotion by selection was definitely substituted for that of promotion by examination in 1907. As the system of promotion by examination has now been reintroduced, I can give no undertaking that candidates who qualified but were unsuccessful at the 1904 competitive examination will be specially promoted.
His Majesty's Ship "Warspite."
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is proposed to furnish the following cabins, namely, the admiral's, chief-of-staff, wardroom, and gun-rooms, as far as wardrobes and sideboards are concerned, on His Majesty's ship "Warspite," by putting the work out to contractors, or whether it is the intention of the Government to have the work in question done, as heretofore, by joiners in His Majesty's dockyard; whether a Committee of any kind has been inquiring into high-class, joinery work done in His Majesty's dockyards; and, if so, what is the purport of that inquiry, and will he give the result of the investigations?
The question of improving the furniture of the officers' quarters in His Majesty's ships is at present being considered by a Departmental Committee; and in accordance with a proposal made by that Committee, certain firms have been requested to forward estimates and designs for fitting up the admiral's day cabin, dining cabin, and Bleeping cabin on His Majesty's Ship "Warspite." Similar estimates and designs have been called for from the Admiral Superintendent, Devonport, for purposes of comparison. The investigations of the Committee are not yet completed, and the whole matter is still under consideration.
Am I to understand that the Royal Dockyards are to have no opportunity of doing this work?
What I said was: "Similar estimates and designs have been called for from the Admiral Superintendent, Devonport."
Are the Government not satisfied with the work done by the joiners in the dockyards?
I do not think that deduction can be drawn from the reply I have given.
Battleships Capacity ("Lord Nelson" and "Agamemnon")
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state why in the Dickinson Return the "Dread-nought" has been placed below the "Lord Nelson" and the "Agamemnon," seeing that it carries ten 12-inch guns, giving a weight of broadside fire of 6,800 lbs., as against the four 12-inch and ten 9.2-inch guns carried respectively by the "Lord Nelson" and "Agamemnon," giving a weight of broadside fire of 5,200 lbs.; whether the Admiralty rank the "Lord Nelson" and the "Agamemnon" as equal in fighting value to the "Dreadnought"; and, if so, whether the three Austrian "Radetzkys" should not also be so ranked?
The order in which the ships are placed in the Dickinson Return for 1914 is in agreement with previous years. The ships are placed in the order in which they are completed; the "Dreadnought" was completed in 1906, and the "Agamemnon" and "Lord Nelson" in 1908.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the latter part of the question?
The "Lord Nelson's" are classed as "Lord Nelson's," and they were finished later than the first "Dreadnought." Their broadside at 10,000 yards is superior to the first four German "Dreadnoughts."
First Sea Lord
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he charges any Members of this House with misrepresentation and gross attacks upon the Naval members of the Board of Admiralty, arising out of Prince Louis of Battenberg's speech at the Union Jack Club; and, if so, will he give their names?
It does not seem necessary for me to add anything to the statement which I made to the House on Wednesday last on the subject of the First Sea Lord's speech.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question on the Paper?
I said it is not necessary for me to add anything to the answer I gave on the subject of the First Sea Lord's speech last Monday.
Does the right hon. Gentleman withdraw the words "gross misrepresentation and attacks"?
No, Sir; far from withdrawing them, I should wish to emphasise them.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give any names at all?
Rosyth Dockyard (Housing of Workmen)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of men now employed in the construction of His Majesty's dockyard at Rosyth?
The number of men employed is now 3,633.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) whether he will make special inquiry into the housing conditions of the men employed at His Majesty's dockyard now in process of construction at Rosyth; and (2) whether he will make special inquiry into the housing conditions of the men employed on the the works connected with His Majesty's dockyard at Rosyth?
My right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary and Sir Francis Hopwood are at Rosyth to-day inquiring into the housing question with representatives of the contractors and the Local Government Board for Scotland.
asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many men will be employed at the explosives factory, Crombie, when completed; and what steps the Admiralty are taking to provide housing for these men, and so prevent even further overcrowding in the Rosyth neighbourhood?
The number of men required at Crombie when the depot is in full working order will be about 450. The Admiralty are erecting over sixty houses for workmen and police. Offers have been received from various sources for the provision of further housing accommodation in the neighbourhood, which are now being carefully considered.
Does the Admiralty undertake the responsibility if private enterprise does not?
Questions
Indian Budget
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the increasing interest shown by Members of this House in matters connected with India, he can see his way to give two days instead of one for the discussion of the Indian Budget this year?
I will consider this suggestion when the time arrives for fixing the date for the introduction of the Indian Budget.
May I ask the Prime Minister whether India is not entitled to more time and attention since her adoption by the Labour party?
National Food Supply
asked the Prime Minister, if, following the decision of the Admiralty to permanently store a supply of oil for the entire needs of the Fleet for three years in time of peace and one year in time of war, he will consider the desirability of erecting at suitable centres throughout the country elevators for the storage of grain in order to ensure the nation's food in the case of war?
As I have recently stated, the Government have various aspects of the question of food supplies in time of war, including that suggested by the hon. Member, under consideration, but at present a final reply cannot be given.
London Electric Railway Company (Lease)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, on a lease of lands required by the London Electric Railway Company for their Piccadilly Circus station, the Commissioners of Woods and Forests demanded a slightly reduced rent of £800 and, in addition, a fine of £89,834, and also large expenditure on buildings; and what was the amount so expended on buildings?
This was practically a sale subject to a rent of £800 a year (the lease being for 999 years). The sum of £89,834 formed part of the consideration agreed with the two companies, which were subsequently amalgamated in the London Electric Railway Company. The subject of the transaction was a large block of property in Piccadilly, the Hay-market, and Jermyn Street, on or under which the stations of two tube railways and an hotel over and some shops have been constructed. No stipulation was made as to expenditure, and the Commissioner of Woods has no information as to the amount actually spent.
Sea Fisheries
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if it is his intention to prohibit the use of kettle nets in Rye Bay, in the use of which vast quantities of immature fish are destroyed, to the great detriment of the fishermen on the coast?
This is a question not for the Board, but for the Sussex Sea Fisheries Committee in the first instance. The Board have no power to take the initiative, and if the Committee submit, as they may, a proposed by-law for the confirmation of the Board, it will have to be considered with an open mind. My hon. Friend will therefore understand that I cannot prejudge the question by either agreeing or disagreeing with his view as to the effect of the use of kettle nets.
Foot-and-Mouth Disease
asked what are the actual steps, if any, taken by the officials of the Board to discover on farm premises the source of an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the absence of any possibility of contact between animals on the premises and other animals known to have been previously infected?
It is impossible within the limits of an answer to a Parliamentary question to describe the steps taken to trace the origin of outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease. The procedure was explained in detail by officers of the Board in their evidence given before the Departmental Committee. For full information I must refer the hon. Gentleman to Cd. 6244 of 1912.
Live Stock (Exportation)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will forthwith use his best endeavours to obtain a reduction in the period of embargo, placed by the Argentine and other Governments upon the importation of live stock from England and Wales in the event of an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease, from six to three months, so that if no further outbreaks occur during the next few weeks there may be no interference with the export to Argentina and other countries of cattle and other live stock sold at the Royal Agricultural Society's Show in June?
I fully appreciate the importance of this question and am already doing all that can be done to bring about a satisfactory arrangement.
Can steps be taken to reduce the embargo on Irish cattle in the three provinces?
Parish Councils (Mode of Election)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has yet prepared an Election Order to admit of electing parish councillors by ballot, in substitution for, or as an alternative for, the existing custom of electing them by show of hands; and, if so, when he proposes to issue it and bring it into operation?
An Order is in course of preparation.
Housing Schemes
asked how much the cost of the land, excluding law charges, road making, and estate development, represents in the weekly rent of the houses proposed to be erected in the following cases in which loans have recently been sanctioned by the Local Government Board; the South-gate Urban District Council, the Fether-stone Urban District Council, the Hendon Urban District Council, the Chelmsford Borough Council, the Barnet Urban District Council, the Pontefract Borough Council, the Tiverton Borough Council the Yeovil Borough Council, and the Evesham Rural District Council, showing in each case the total average rent proposed to be charged and the proportion of it which represents the cost of the land?
Without an examination in each case of the plans in order to apportion the charge for the land between the houses to be built it is impossible to give the figures which the hon. Member desires with any degree of accuracy.
I will put the question down again.
Newton-in-the-Willows (Labourer's Notice to Quit)
asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been directed to the conditions of housing at Newton-in-the-Willows, a small agricultural village near Kettering; if he is aware that Mr. William Chapman, a farm labourer and parish clerk for over fifty years, has just received notice to quit the cottage in which he has lived all his life at Lady Day next; that he can get no other cottage in Newton-in-the-Willows; that he does not know where to go and that his friends fear it may endanger him to be moved, as he is seventy-eight years of age; and what he proposes to do in the matter?
I am aware of the circumstances of this case, but my right hon. Friend has in any case no power to prevent effect being given to the notice to quit the cottage, which has been served upon Mr. Chapman. Nor does it appear from the information at present before the Board that the village is one in which the rural district council can properly be pressed to build cottages, as the supply is stated to be adequate to house the persons working in the locality.
Motors Cars (Head-Lights)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, as a result of the experiments carried out by his predecessor, a satisfactory method has been found of diminishing the glare produced by dazzling head-lights on motor cars?
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has any control over the regulations which govern the lighting of motor cars; and, if so, if he has sanctioned any regulation permitting motor vehicles to use at night head-lights of such power and brilliancy as by their blinding light to endanger the lives of pedestrians who may be crossing the road and the safety of other vehicles which may be using it?
My right hon. Friend, the President of the Local Government Board, is considering the results of a number of experiments which have been made. He is not, however, in a position to make a compulsory regulation on the subject at the present time.
University of London
asked the President of the Board of Education what are the terms of reference to the Departmental Committee appointed by him in connection with the reconstitution of the University of London; and whether that Committee is empowered to recommend such constitution for the university as will secure unimpaired and on a permanent basis the work of the external side of the university as hitherto conducted and not in accordance with the principles of the Haldane Commission Report?
The terms of reference are as follows:—"To inquire and report, after consulting with the bodies and persons concerned, as to the steps by which effect shall be given to the scheme of the Report of the Royal Commission on University Education in London, and to recommend the specific arrangements and provisions which may be immediately adopted for that purpose, and as the basis of the necessary legislation." As regards the second part of the question, I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend to a similar question on the 5th March.
Is it contemplated by any Act reconstituting the university to give it discretionary power to exclude external students from its examinations?
I do not think that the Royal Commission suggested the university having such power, nor, so far as I know, was any such idea in their minds.
Are the Committee recommending a scheme—
I am afraid I cannot hear the question. Perhaps my hon. Friend will put it down?
Imperial Defence (Invading Force)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in anticipation of his full statement with regard to the conclusions arrived at by the Imperial Defence Committee in the re-examination of the invasion problem, he will inform the House whether the figure of 70,000, as the possible size of the invading force which our Home Defence Army should be capable of dealing with, has been increased, or decreased, or left unchanged, as a result of the recent inquiry?
The figure of 70,000 has been left unchanged.
Inland Waterways
asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the growing interest, in the Midlands and South and West of England in the development of inland waterways of the country, he will state whether the Government propose to appoint a Waterways Board, as recommended by the Royal Commission on Canals, or to carry out by legislation or otherwise any of the other recommendations of that Commission?
The Royal Commission recommended that the first step should be the appointment of a Central Waterways Board for Great Britain, and most of the other recommendations are dependent on this step being taken. As to this I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to a question put by the hon. Member on the 19th February.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be able at an early date to make a more definite statement on this matter, considering the interest evinced upon it in every part of the country?
My right hon. Friend is receiving a deputation from the Waterways' Association at the end of the month.
May I ask whether something cannot be done to improve the existing waterways without going so far as an expenditure of £20,000,000?
I am afraid I cannot answer that on the spur of the moment.
Post Office Servants (Holt Committee)
asked whether, in view of the facilities which have been arranged for facilitating the financial business of the House, he can fix a day for the discussion of the grievances of postal servants and the Holt Report?
also asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the unrest among Post Office servants as the result of the Holt Committee, he can give a day before the Easter vacation for a discussion on the Report?
I fear I am not yet in a position to make any statement on the subject.
National Insurance Act
Examination of Sputum
asked how many local authorities have provided for the free examination of sputum; and how many have not yet made such provision?
The Department have no exact information on the subject. Speaking generally, the schemes of treatment which are now being developed by the councils of counties and county boroughs include arrangements for the examination of the sputum of patients attending institutions provided by these councils.
Questions to Ministers
asked whether, if the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commission, is going to continue to reply to Questions on the Insurance Act which used to be addressed to the Secretary to the Treasury, he may be given some more concise title and so save time and printing in Questions?
I am prepared to consider any suggestions which the hon. Member has to make.
When I asked whether the arrangement would be permanent, did not the right hon. Gentleman reply that it was under consideration?
:I said it would be a new appointment.
Deposit Contributors
asked when the right hon. Gentleman will introduce the Bill to provide for the deposit contributors whose provision under the National Insurance Acts lapses at the end of the present year?
As has already been stated, special investigations in regard to this class of insured persons are in progress, and, until they are completed, it would be premature to make any further statement.
Medical Benefit
asked the Secretary to the Treasury how many medical tickets have been sent out by the Liverpool Insurance Committee; and how many have been returned owing to the insured person having changed his address?
asked how many persons were engaged by the Liverpool Insurance Committee to deal with returned medical tickets; how many days they were employed in tracing the insured persons who had removed without notifying their change of address; what was the total cost of employing this staff on this work; and out of what fund this money was paid?
The number of medical cards was over 225,000, of which about 37,000 were returned. The staff employed in dealing with the returned cards were twelve girls and three men. The approximate cost of this staff is £40.
asked whether the collectors of the panel doctors are employed by the Blackburn Insurance Committee to deliver medical tickets to insured persons; how many collectors are so employed; what remuneration is paid to them for this service; how many doctors' collectors have refused to undertake this work; and what arrangements are made to deliver the cards in these cases?
My right hon. Friend is informed that in a large number of cases the collectors of the panel doctors were employed by the Blackburn Insurance Committee to deliver medical cards to insured persons, but he is unable to state how many were so employed or how many declined to undertake the work. The remuneration offered was 2s. 6d a hundred cards. In those cases in which it was not possible to secure the delivery of the cards by the doctors' collectors the cards were sent by post, or delivered by other persons engaged for the purpose.
asked what are the arrangements which have been made by which an insured person who has been refused medical attendance by three panel doctors can obtain medical benefit without further delay?
Insurance committees have always had power under their agreements with doctors to assign to a doctor any insured person applying to them for the purpose who experiences difficulty in getting accepted, and this power has always been exercised when necessary. The recent constitution of panel committees under the 1913 Act, however, has made it possible to facilitate the procedure of assignment, which is now being revised by insurance committees with this object.
Will the hon. Gentleman say how long it takes the insurance committees to get insured persons allotted to particular doctors?
It is done instantly. The patient applies to the doctor, who either treats him or tells him where to go.
The hon. Gentleman has' not answered my question.
If the hon. Gentleman will give me the details of any case I will inquire, but I cannot do so if he merely makes vague statements.
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commission, whether the Government has taken official notice of the remarks of the coroner, made on Saturday last, in respect of the case of George John Chandler, an insured person, who suffered from consumption, and filled up the requisite application form for sanatorium treatment, which was sent in on the 12th January, but who received no benefits, and cut his throat during what the Bedford coroner's jury found to be temporary insanity; and what explanation he can give the House of the failure to treat this unfortunate man?
I would refer the hon. Member to my full reply of the 4th instant, from which he will see that his insinuation is absolutely baseless.
How is the hon. Member in a position to say that the delay in treating a man in his state did not conduce to his death?
Because the inquest shows that the man had all the nourishment and all necessary attention.
It did not show the state of his mind.
Statistics
asked the number of persons belonging to friendly societies at the date the National Insurance Act came into force, and the number of persons now insured under the National Insurance Act; and if the Hearts of Oak Society gave better benefits than are obtainable under the National Insurance Act?
The total membership of friendly societies, including duplicates, was in December, 1911, approximately six and three-quarter millions. The number of persons insured under the Act without duplicates is nearly fourteen millions. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Can the hon. Gentleman state more precisely what number of persons are at the present moment obtaining benefits under the Act?
The precise number of insured is 13,759,400.
asked the number of persons now insured under the National Insurance Act and the number of persons whose names are on the list of panel doctors; and, if these lists do not correspond numerically, what is the amount of money outstanding on the medical benefit side?
In reply to the first part of the question, the latest available figure is 13,759,400. In reply to the second part, I would refer the hon. Member to my replies to the hon. Member for Colchester on the 25th ultimo and 2nd instant.
Sanatorium Benefit
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, if his attention has been called to the correspondence which has passed between the South Stoneham guardians and the county medical officer for Hampshire with regard to the discharge, in January last, from a sanatorium of an insurance patient suffering from tuberculosis; why this discharge resulted in the patient becoming a charge upon the guardians, having regard to the provisions of the National Insurance Act; if any person suffering from tuberculosis, who has contributed under the Act, is liable at any time after a short period of treatment under an insurance committee to be passed on to the guardians to be dealt with; and if, in such circumstances, the insurance committee are called upon to contribute to the person's upkeep?
The correspondence in question had not previously been brought to the notice of my right hon. Friend. He is informed, however, that the insured person referred to received three months' treatment in a sanatorium, at the expiration of which the medical officer of the sanatorium reported that the patient would derive no advantage from a continuance of this form of treatment. The insurance committee, accordingly, recommended, on the advice of their medical adviser, a course of domiciliary treatment; but finding, on inquiry, that the patient had no home at which treatment could be given, they communicated with the guardians.
May I ask if this method of placing an additional burden on local authorities is for the purpose of concealing the bankruptcy of the Insurance Act?
No. I have no doubt this was a very sad case, but, unfortunately, it was not a case provided for by the Insurance Act.
Questions
Post Office Contractors (Metal Tubing)
asked the Postmaster - General whether Messrs. Stewarts and Lloyds, Coombs Wood Works, Halesowen, are on the list of contractors for metal tubing?
The firm named is on the list of contractors for metal tubing.
Houghton-le-Spring (Telephone Box)
asked the Postmaster-General if he will replace the present telephone box at Houghton-le-Spring with a more modern structure?
I am making arrangements to replace as soon as possible the existing cabinet by another of more suitable size and design as suggested by the hon. Member.
Central Telegraph Office
asked whether two officers in the cable room of the Central Telegraph Office have been unanimously recommended for promotion to the rank of overseer and assistant-superintendent, respectively, in that department by the whole of their immediate superiors; and whether, in view of this certification that the officers in question are the best qualified of those eligible for the performance of the higher duties, any reason exists for withholding their appointments?
The two officers to whom the hon. Member is understood to refer are not regarded by the Controller of the Central Telegraph Office, with whom the responsibility for making recommendations rests, as the best qualified for promotion at the present time. I fear, therefore, that it will be impossible to promote them on this occasion.
Wireless Telegraphy
asked the Postmaster-General if he will state how many tenders have been received, and from whom, in respect of the contract for the construction and equipment of the second series of three wireless stations for the Imperial chain; and whether the contract for these second three stations has yet been allocated, and, if so, to whom?
The second three stations are included in the contract with the Marconi Company, and so far, therefore, the Marconi Company holds the contract for them. Under Clause 2 of the contract, however, the Postmaster-General has power to cancel the contract so far as it relates to those three stations; and it was with this power in view that my predecessor issued a notice in the Press in November last that he would be prepared to consider applications to tender from any firms, companies, or contractors who were able, by means of practical demonstration, to satisfy him of the efficiency of their system. Tenders were not asked, and none were sent in. Replies were received from the Universal Radio Syndicate (Poulsen system), the Société Francaise Radioélectrique (Béthenod system), and the Galletti Company; but their proposals were too indefinite, and the dates suggested for the demonstrations too distant to justify waiting. The companies were informed that the Post Office would be glad to witness demonstrations of the systems; but as a matter of fact no successful demonstration, even of an experimental character, has yet been given.
Post Office Life Insurance Scheme
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that, in the Post Office life insurance scheme, a regulation is inserted by which those who are unvaccinated have to consent that, in the event of their death from small-pox, only the amount actually paid in premiums shall be paid to their relatives instead of the full amount insured for; will he state why a similar clause is not inserted in the policies of vaccinated persons; is he aware that under the National Insurance Act submission to vaccination is not made a condition for the receipt of benefits; and, seeing that conscientious objection to vaccination has been recognised by law in this country since 1898, is he now prepared to amend the regulation under notice of his life insurance scheme?
The National Debt Commissioners, on whose behalf insurance contracts are granted by the Post Office, after examining the general practice of insurance offices, recognised, I am informed, an increased risk in the case of the insurance of unvaccinated persons. They considered, therefore, that this should be met by a provision that, in the case of an unvaccinated person dying from small-pox the payment should be limited to a return of the premiums paid.
Sir Stuart Montagu Samuel Indemnity Bill
asked if it is proposed to reintroduce in the present Session of Parliament the Bill introduced and dropped last year to indemnify the hon. Member for Whitechapel for taking part in the proceedings of the House while interested in a contract with the Government of India?
The matter is still under consideration.
Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House whether this Bill is going to be promoted again or not?
Very soon.
Gerrard Telephone Exchange (Robberies)
asked the Postmaster-General whether there have been a number of robberies of property belonging to women operators in the Gerrard exchange; and, if so, has the culprit been found in any case, and are proper precautions taken to guard the back door at all hours?
It is the case that a number of losses of private property have been reported by members of the staff at the Gerrard exchange; and some of these losses are doubtless attributable to theft. A thief was detected and dismissed in October, 1912; but the inquiries made in the more, recent cases have not resulted in the detection of the offender. I am satisfied that the precautions taken to guard the back door at all hours are adequate.
Postal Work (Ireland)
asked what is the total number of chief and sub-post offices, telegraph and telephone offices, and the total number of employés engaged in postal work in Ireland?
The number of post offices in Ireland at 31st March, 1913, was 3,046, of which ninety-four were head offices. The total number of employés engaged in post office work in Ireland is approximately 17,160. This figure does not include assistants to scale-payment sub-postmasters, who are not in the direct employ of the Department, nor deliverers, etc., paid out of allowances to postmasters and sub-postmasters.
Metropolitan District Railway (Overcrowding)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the overcrowding which takes place on the Metropolitan District Railway between 6.30 and 8.30 on the section between East Ham and Aldgate East stations; and if he will station an inspector at Aldgate East station between the hours mentioned with a view to a report being made to the Board?
I have communicated with the Midland and the Metropolitan District Railway companies in this matter, and I am sending my hon. Friend copies of their replies. It is undeniable that trains are often crowded during the busy hours on such a line as this, and I do not, therefore, think that a visit by one of the Board's inspecting officers would serve any very useful purpose. If my hon. Friend has any specific suggestions to make for the improvement of the train service I shall be glad to communicate them to the companies.
Steamship "Templemore" (Loss)
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been drawn to the recent Board of Trade inquiry into the loss by fire in the North Atlantic of the steamship "Templemore," with particular reference to the application to the Court for the costs of the master, who was entirely exonerated from blame, to be paid by the Board of Trade; and, if so, whether the suggestion which has been made by the Court to the Board of Trade that some part, at any rate, of the master's expenses might be allowed him has now received his favourable consideration?
My attention has been drawn to the judgment of the Court of Inquiry recently held into the circumstances attending the loss of the steamship "Templemore." The question of costs is one for the Court to determine, and I find that, although an application was made to the Court for an order for the costs of the master to be paid by the Board of Trade, the Court decided not to make any such order. As regards the suggestion referred to in the hon. Member's question, I may point out that the master was in receipt of a subsistence allowance from public funds at the usual rate from 23rd October, 1913, until the conclusion of the inquiry on 27th February, 1914, amounting altogether to over £95. None of the questions submitted to the Court suggested that the master was responsible for the casualty, and in these circumstances I regret that I can see no ground for applying to the Treasury to defray out of public funds any part of the legal expenses which he thought proper to incur.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of instructing counsel who represent the Government in Board of Trade inquiries not to oppose, but to support, applications made under these circumstances?
The application was not opposed.
Money-lenders (Uniformity of Interest)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to two money-lending cases, in one of which Judge Woodfall, at Westminster, said that money-lenders incurred considerable risks and so required a high rate of interest, and gave judgment against a farmer for interest at about 350 per cent., and in the other, Judge Mulligan, at East Dereham, Norfolk, said that he did not think it necessary that money-lenders should make a living, or for that matter should live, and found that 20 per cent, interest was sufficient; and whether he will consider the possibility, by circular or otherwise, of trying to produce some uniformity in the rate of interest permitted by County Court Judges in these money-lending cases?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I regret that I was not able to deal with it when the hon. Gentleman put it down for Wednesday last. The Legislature has deliberately refrained from laying down what is the maximum rate of interest which money-lenders may recover upon their loans, and has preferred to leave to the tribunal the duty of judging in each case whether the bargain is "harsh and unconscionable," and, if it is, how the contract made by the borrower should be modified. In these circumstances the fact that different rates of interest are allowed in different cases is no indication that the same principles are not being applied, and it would not appear consistent with the legislation which Parliament has enacted for uniformity in the rate of interest to be secured by Executive action. I should add that both the County Court Judges referred to have been communicated with, and neither of them considers that the statement in the hon. Gentleman's question fully explains the view he took, which, in each case, depended upon particular facts proved before him.
Supper Clubs
asked if, in consideration of the development in London of establishments known as supper clubs, the main object of which is to carry on a restaurant business during hours in which licensed hotels and restaurants are obliged to close their premises, he will enforce, either by legislation or through regulations, provisions by which this competition with restaurants and other licensed premises by these so-called clubs, having special regard to the fact that a considerable number of those who frequent them are not members, may be suppressed; and that these clubs shall be obliged to conform to the same rules and restrictions as regards closing as restaurants and licensed premises?
I received a few days ago representations from the Association of Hotels and Restaurants on this subject, and I am arranging to receive a deputation from them. In the meantime, I cannot add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. Baronet on the 16th February.
Will my right hon. Friend in the meantime consider whether special instructions ought not to be issued?
I do not think special instructions are necessary for the purpose.
Criminal Lunatics
asked whether, when special Reports are asked for in respect of inmates of criminal lunatic asylums, a personal examination is made by a Home Office expert?
When I require a report on the condition of an inmate of one of the criminal lunatic asylums I obtain it from the medical superintendent, who has direct personal knowledge on the subject, not from one examination merely, but from continuous observation.
asked how often the Lunacy Commissioners visit the Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum?
Once a year, as shown in their Annual Report laid before Parliament.
Mrs. Savage (Conviction)
asked if the right hon. Gentleman is yet in a position to announce his decision in the case of Mrs. Savage, of Holloway, now undergoing a sentence of six months' imprisonment; has he any information pointing to the habits of her late husband and his responsibility for the condition of the children when Mrs. Savage was cautioned on a previous occasion; and has he taken into consideration that the Islington Board of Guardians, after careful inquiries into the case by the receiving homes committee, recommend the release of the woman, and that the guardians are prepared to render suitable assistance to enable Miss Mary Neal to arrange for the proper keep of the mother and children?
The matters mentioned in the question are receiving my attention, together with all the other circumstances of this case. I hope to be able to announce my decision in a day or two.
Herring Fishing (Statutory Close Time)
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that the whole of the fishing towns in the districts embraced by Loch Fyne and the territorial waters of the Firth of Clyde, with the single exception of Campbeltown and including the wholesale fish salesmen of Glasgow, have by public meetings and resolutions shown unanimously that they are anxious for a statutory close time for the fishing of herring in these waters from 1st February to the middle of May; and is it intended, in view of the falling off of this industry, to give any effect to the local desires for a statutory close time?
According to my present information the opposition to the proposals for a close time in the waters referred to is not so restricted as my hon. Friend's question suggests, but includes most of the Ayrshire fishermen as well as those from Campbeltown and Carradale, a group which represents a large proportion of the interests affected. The whole question of the herring fishery in the area referred to has, for some time, been engaging the consideration of the Fishery Board, but hitherto the making of such a regulation has not been deemed expedient in view of the conflict of opinion. I am informed that the fishery showed a considerable improvement in 1913.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Fishery Board have always said that they never could really enforce a statutory close time?
Yes, there is a difficulty because the same fishermen vary in their opinion from one season to another.
If the fishermen are unanimous, will the right hon. Gentleman take action?
That is the difficulty. They are very far from being unanimous.
Saturday Half-Holiday (Scotland)
asked if, in view of the fact that voluntary agreements have been made in Scotland between many farmers and workers for a Saturday half-holiday, the right hon. Gentleman will consider the possibility of introducing a Bill to apply the principle to the whole of the farmers and workers and to bring the backward into line?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire last Thursday, to which I am unable to add anything.
Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that last week he told my hon. Friend the fact of a voluntary agreement being made was satisfactory, and this question arises naturally out of that answer?
Yes, but I said something more in my answer on the occasion to which I have referred my hon. Friend.
Miss Moorhead (Calton Gaol, Edinburgh)
asked if the right hon. Gentleman is aware of the allegations which have been made of ill-treatment of Miss Moorhead while in Calton gaol, Edinburgh, and of her health and life being endangered thereby; and if he can make a statement on the matter?
No representations to the effect suggested in the first part of the question have been made to me. As to the second part of the question, I am prepared to comply with my hon. Friend's request. Miss Ethel Moorhead, alias Margaret Morrison, alias Edith Johnstone, alias Mrs. Marshall, alias Mary Humphries is under sentence of eight months' imprisonment for breaking into a house with intent, to set fire to it, this being her fourth conviction. She was sentenced on the 15th October, 1913, and was released, after hunger striking, on 20th October. She broke the terms of her licence. During the time she was at large several fires occurred in various parts of Scotland—three in Perthshire and one in Renfrewshire. Ethel Moorhead was identified as having been in the neighbourhood at the time of these fires, and is "wanted" by the Perthshire police on suspicion of being concerned in at least one of them. She was arrested in Peebles after a visit, which the police regarded as suspicious, to Traquair House. After the arrest she refused to take food. Under the circumstances it was evidently undesirable to liberate her, and she was forcibly fed. An experienced doctor from outside Edinburgh Prison was brought in to carry out the forcible feeding, and there is no foundation for alleging that she received any injury from that. The illness from which she is suffering, and in consequence of which she was liberated on licence on the 25th February, was caused by her own action. The doctor reports that on Sunday, the 22nd, she broke the window of her cell and tied herself to the bars, while imperfectly clothed, and that she also took other opportunities of wilfully exposing herself to cold. I regret to say that during the past few months there have been a number of cases of arson in Scotland, the last being the burning of the ancient church of Whitekirk, in Haddingtonshire. In one case, that of Aberuchill Castle, Perthshire, there were several servants iii the castle at the time of the fire, who were, I am informed, rescued with difficulty.
Nigeria
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the District Commissioners of Southern Nigeria have the advantage of a legal adviser, assessor or coadjutor, sitting with them in trying native criminal cases?
No, Sir.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration an appointment, such as I have indicated, for the purpose of creating or adding to public confidence and securing expert impartiality in the administration of justice in Southern Nigeria?
I will consider the hon. Member's suggestion.
asked what are the legal, judicial and age qualifications of a Commissioner in charge of a province in Nigeria who is allowed to try Capital cases; and whether confirmation of sentence of death by the Governor or his deputy may be given without the prisoner having the right of a retrial before him?
No special legal, judicial, or age qualifications are laid down for such an appointment, but, as I informed my hon. Friend on 5th March, a Resident or Commissioner in charge of a Province in Nigeria will practically always be an officer of considerable length of service and experience of judicial work. The answer to the second question is in the affirmative, but the Governor or his Deputy before whom a sentence comes for confirmation gives his decision on all the written records of the case. This operates substantially as an appeal, since the Governor or his Deputy can, if he thinks fit, order a new trial before the Court which passed sentence or before any other Provincial Court or before a Judge of the Supreme Court, or order further evidence to be taken either generally or on some particular point.
Jamaica
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he communicated his opinion to the Governor of Jamaica that the Legislative Council might properly indemnify Sir Sydney Olivier against his law costs before he had received Any notification that the local Legislature desired to carry out that step; and whether that communication was made after consultation with Sir Sydney Olivier?
The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. Sir Sydney Olivier applied for an indemnity for legal expenses incurred in an action brought against him in respect of a dispatch written by him in the course of his duty as Governor of Jamaica In my opinion his application was an entirely proper one, and I instructed the present Governor to submit the matter to the Legislative Council.
If these costs are to be paid, should not the generosity be ours rather than be forced upon the people of Jamaica?
I think that Sir Sidney Olivier incurred these expenses in the discharge of his official duties as Governor of Jamaica.
Scottish Land Reform
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received a memorial from the Young Scots Society, signed by Messrs. Kenneth MacIver, president, and Thos. Lochhead, hon. general secretary, begging him not to deal with Scottish land reform until the question of Home Rule for Scotland has been dealt with; and whether he intends to accede to their requst?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I can add nothing to what I stated in my recent speech at Glasgow.
May I ask if one of the reasons alleged in the memorial was the right hon. Gentleman's imperfect acquaintance with the land problem in Scotland?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Mr. Kenneth MacIver mentioned in the question is the future Liberal member for West Perth-shire?
Agricultural Land (Valuation)
asked if it has been decided by the Courts in test cases connected with the valuation of agricultural land under the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, that the value, of unsevered crops, including grass, and roads should be deducted in estimating site values; if this ruling will involve a revaluation of such land; whether legal opinion was obtained before it was decided to dispute the points at issue; if a revaluation has to be effected what will be the cost entailed; and how will any necessary rectification of increment charges already made be affected in cases in which land, valued on a wrong basis, has since changed hands?
It is not possible to represent the precise effect of these decisions by question and answer, but I may point out to the hon. Member that some of the issues involved are issuer of fact which differ in each case. I understand that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue consulted the legal advisers of the Department before the cases were contested. As I informed the hon. Member for Chelmsford on the 5th instant, the, question of the extent to which these judgments should be accepted or appealed against is still under consideration, and I should, meanwhile, prefer to postpone any further statement on the matter.
Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he would be good enough to reply to the last part of the question, which deals with most important matters in cases in which land has changed hands?
I have answered it.
Not the last part.
Clerks to Surveyors
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any, and, if so, what, alteration has been made or is contemplated in the position of clerks to surveyors in pursuance of the declared intention that there should be some definite Government proposals this year for the amelioration of the condition of this class, and of his guarantee that justice will be done to their claims?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for North Derry on the 24th ultimo.
Development Commissioners
asked if the Government will again support and facilitate the passage into law of the Bill, reintroduced this Session by the hon. Member for the Wilton Division, providing for the appointment of two additional unpaid development commissioners?
The Government will give the hon. Member's suggestion sympathetic consideration, but I cannot say more at present.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he proposes to fill the existing vacancy on the Commission?
I hope, soon.
Land Purchase (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that there is local dissatisfaction at the failure of the Estates Commissioners to reinstate John Duff in the holding from which he was evicted on the Ruxton estate, Queen's County, lately purchased by the Commissioners; that the tenants on the estate have forwarded a memorial to the Commissioners asking for Duff's reinstate- ment; whether he is aware that Duff, on his giving up possession to the Commissioners, was promised a holding elsewhere or compensation in lieu thereof; and whether the Estates Commissioners will reconsider John Duff's claim and grant him a holding elsewhere or adequate compensation in lieu thereof?
The Estates Commissioners have received representations from some tenants on the property and others expressing dissatisfaction with their decision not to reinstate Duff in his former holding. No such promise as that referred to in the question was made to him. As the hon. Member has already been informed, this case was fully considered by the Commissioners, and they are not prepared to depart from their decision in the matter.
asked why the Estates Commissioners will not provide a holding for Mary Anne Kennedy, who was evicted from a holding at Ballymullen, Queen's County, on the De Vesci estate, containing 12 acres 2 roods 6 perches, on the 2nd August, 1882; and if the Commissioners will reconsider the advisability of making further inquiries into her claim?
The Estates Commissioners inform me that Mary Anne Kennedy made application for reinstatement in a farm at one time in the occupation of her father. The Commissioners have no power to interfere with the present occupier, and they do not consider her a suitable person to work land. The reply to the concluding portion of the question is in the negative.
asked the Chief Secretary whether the Estates Commissioners have purchased and divided the un-tenanted land on the Reynolds property; whether James Boggan is a tenant of that property on a valuation of £1, the valuation on his other farm in the adjoining property being only £30; whether three acres of bog, which Boggan has held for the last five years, were taken from him, though he has no other turbary; and whether the Commissioners can see their way to give Boggan the plot, three acres, of which he was tenant for five years?
The tenanted portion of the estate was sold by the owner direct to the tenants under the Irish Land Act, 1903, and the holdings have been vested in the parties, including a holding of 2½ acres held by James Boggan. As regards the untenanted land, the owner proposed to sell it in parcels, and had agreements signed by his allottees, who included Boggan, but the Estates Commissioners did not approve of the proposed allotment, and required the owner to sell the untenanted land to the Commissioners, who have since allotted it. The Commissioners could not see their way to make any allotment to Boggan in their distribution of the lands. The matter of the allotment of the lands is closed and cannot be reopened.
asked whether the Congested Districts Board have refused to purchase the congested estate of Mr. Ryan, near Newport, county Mayo, upon terms which the Board had previously offered, and which the owner is now willing to accept; and, if so, can he state the grounds for such refusal?
The Congested Districts Board inform me that they have not refused to purchase the estate referred to upon terms which they had previously offered. The owner was willing to accept the Board's valuation of the estate upon certain conditions to which the Board have declined to agree, but they are willing to purchase the estate on the terms of the offer already made by them.
National Schools (Ireland)
asked if Mr. Joseph Connor received promotion as teacher of Brookfield national school, Moria, from 1st April, 1912, but has received no salary on an increased promotion basis for the twelve months April, 1912, to April, 1913, thereby sustaining a loss of £13; and if this arrear will be provided before the end of the financial year?
asked if Mr. John Kyle received promotion as a teacher in Lurgan national school from 1st April, 1912, but has received no salary on an increased' promotion basis for the twelve months April, 1912, to April, 1913, thereby sustaining a loss of £13; and if this arrear will be provided before the end of the financial year.
The two teachers referred to qualified for promotion on the 1st April, 1912, but as there were not a sufficient number of vacancies in the higher grade, they were not awarded the corresponding increase of salary. As I have already stated, the Treasury have consented as from 1st April, 1913, to an in- crease in the number of teachers in the first grade on the condition that in future no promotions shall he made in excess of the authorised numbers, and I am unable to recommend the claims of these teachers to payment of an increased salary for the period during which they were awaiting vacancies.
Overcrowding (Dublin)
asked if the 20,108 families, stated in paragraph 8 on page 3 of the recent Report on Housing in Dublin to be living in one-room tenements, are crowded into 4,577 one-room tenements; and, if not, how many one-room tenements the 20,108 families do occupy?
The 20,108 families referred to each have a one-room dwelling, and there are therefore 20,108 one-room dwellings, which, as I have already informed the hon. Member on the 3rd instant, are comprised in 4,577 tenement houses.
Is it correct that, on an average, there are five living in single rooms in Dublin?
No, Sir; it is sometimes four.
Importation of Arms (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that Major Poe, J.P., of Craigue House, Callan, county Kilkenny, recently received a letter from the policy at Kilmanagh, dated the 27th of February, informing him that a box of 100 sporting cartridges consigned to Major Poe from the Midland Gun Company, Liverpool, had been detained by the Customs officials at Dublin; whether ammunition for sporting purposes is expressly exempted from the Proclamation relating to the importation of arms into Ireland; and, if so, will he say by what authority the consignment in question was interfered with by the Customs officials?
The Board of Customs and Excise inform me that the only package of cartridges which they have been able to trace as recently consigned to Major Poe from Great Britain is one which arrived at Dublin on the 21st February. It was examined and passed by the Customs on the same day. There was no detention. If the hon. Member will furnish me with further particulars, I will have further inquiry made.
Mullingar Assizes
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the remarks of Mr. Justice Ross, at the Mullingar Assizes, regarding two brutal murders, to the effect that there was something wrong when people who could give evidence were holding back out of fear or for some other cause; and what steps he proposes to take?
My attention has been called to the remarks of the learned judge. The objection to give evidence referred to in the question, so far as it exists, is not the result of political or agrarian agitation, or of terrorism created by any actual organisation, but results from a general aversion to support Crown prosecutions in such cases.
Evicted Tenants (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary whether James Fadden, who was evicted from his holding on the estate of Mr. F. C. Garvey, of Murrisk, county Mayo, for non-payment of one year's rent, applied to the Estates Commissioners in due form and within the prescribed time for reinstatement or a new holding under the Evicted Tenants Act; is not Fadden an industrious man of excellent character; can he state why the Commissioners and the Congested Districts Board have refused to provide him with a holding; and will he ask them to reconsider their decisions, and, if possible, extend to Fadden the benefits of the Act passed for the relief of evicted tenants?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. After inquiry, the Estates Commissioners decided that Fadden was not a suitable person to be provided with a farm, and they refused to take any action in the matter of his application. The question of approving or refusing applications under the Evicted Tenants Act is entirely a matter within the discretion of the Commissioners. The Congested Districts Board cannot provide holdings in cases where such applications have been refused by the Estates Commissioners.
Old Age Pensions
asked the Chief Secretary whether the Local Government Board would now reconsider their decision in reference to the depriving of John Rooney, of Diffreen, Gurteen, Manorhamilton, of his old age pension from 14th February, 1910, to 14th November, 1912, and grant him those arrears?
The Local Government Board have no record of the case of John Rooney. In any event, there is no authority enabling payment of an old age pension to be made in respect of a period prior to the date on which the pension was awarded by the pension authorities.
Protestant Cathedral, Waterford
asked the Chief Secretary whether prayers were recently offered up in the Protestant cathedral at Waterford seeking Divine guidance in these times of difficulty; whether he is aware that three reporters took down the names of the worshippers, whose names have been pilloried since in a Nationalist newspaper; and whether the police may have orders to prevent reporters making a nuisance of themselves in this manner and offending the public conscience in future?
The reply to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. I am informed that reporters attached to the staff of an evening paper in Waterford took down the names of some of those attending the service referred to. This is certainly not an unusual practice in England, and, from any point of view, calls for no interference by the police. I am, however, informed by the police that this prying action of the newspaper was disapproved of by the Nationalists in Waterford, and that the four parish priests of Waterford have written to the Press stating that neither they nor the Catholics of Waterford approve in any way of this alleged espionage.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received a resolution from the corporation of Waterford stating that the allegations contained in this question are not true, and was the resolution written on House of Commons notepaper? May I ask if people outside the House are entitled to use House of Commons notepaper?
That question should be addressed to the Stationery Department.
Is it a fact that of thirty-eight members of the Waterford Corporation only two elected members are Protestants?
That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
Orders of the Day
New Member Sworn
John Guiney, esquire, for the county of Cork (North Cork Division).
Standing Committees (Chairmen's Panel)
Mr. Stuart-Wortley reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Mr. Stuart-Wortley to act as Chairman of Standing Committee C (in respect of the Elementary Education (Defective and Epileptic Children Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.
Bills Presented
Local Authorities Fire Brigades Bill
"To empower Local Authorities to recover from insurance companies and owners of property the expenses of the attendance of fire-engines and fire brigades at fires, whether within or without their districts, and to make charges for such attendance." Presented by Sir THOMAS ROE; supported by Sir Luke White, Mr. Pretyman Newman, Mr. Hall, and Mr. Raffan; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 24th March, and to be printed. [Bill 104.]
Universities of Oxford and Cambridge Bill
"To make further provision with regard to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge and the colleges thereof." Presented by Mr. WHITEHOUSE; supported by Mr. Buxton, Mr. Murray Macdonald, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. Edgar Jones, Mr. Goldstone, Mr. Sherwell, Mr. Hamar Greenwood, and Mr. Dickinson, to be read a second time upon Friday, 27th March, and to be printed. [Bill 105.]
Control and Supervision of Clubs Bill
"To amend and extend the Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910." Presented by Mr. SAMUEL ROBERTS; to be read a second time upon Friday, 24th April, and to be printed. [Bill 106.]
Vaccination Acts (Repeal) Bill
"To repeal the Vaccination Acts." Presented by Mr. BLACK; supported by Sir John M'Callum, Mr. James Parker, Mr. Kellaway, Mr. George Greenwood, Mr. Snowden, Mr. Chancellor, Mr. Pointer, Mr. Lees Smith, Mr. Crooks, Mr. Hancock, Mr. Edgar Jones, and Mr. Bentham; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 21st April, and to be printed. [Bill 107.]
Government of Ireland Bill
Motion for Second Reading
Importation of Plumage (Prohibition) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—[ Mr. Hobhouse ]
I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
I do not object to other business which may be on the Paper being brought forward, if the Government and the House have other business which is consistent with the dignity of the occasion, and with the business affairs of the nation. I do not want to run away from my duties in this House, but I object to this Bill being taken on an occasion such as this. It is only since Thursday last that it has been known that the Bill would be brought forward and taken up by the Government. Year after year the Bill has been brought in as a private Bill, and no one ever expected that it would be taken seriously by the House. There is a very great objection on the part of the business community of the country to its being taken now, because they have not had time to prepare their case against it. It is extremely unfair to Members on this side of the House that the Government should bring forward the Bill to-night, and use the Government Whips and all the forces of the Government to carry the Bill to a Second Reading, when they must know, or if they do not know it, I desire to tell them, that there is a large number of Members of their own party who look upon this measure in a very serious light. It is extremely unfair on the part of the Government to ask us to stay here, and by our attendance help them to get a Bill through which was not part of the Government programme, and which was not in the King's Speech. It was not expected that the Government would take up a Bill of this character. I know that there is a great deal to be said for the Bill from a sentimental point of view, but from a business point of view it is unfair to the business community that this semi-private, semi-public Bill—it was a private Bill for some years, and is only now taken up by the Government—should be taken to-night, and it will make the business men of London, Manchester, and other great business centres angry with the Government, as are many of their supporters, if it is proceeded with to-night. It will be all very well to use the forces of the Government to defeat the proposal I am making, but I tell the Government that they will be taking a very serious course, and that they will hear a great deal more about it.
They ought not, at the bidding of some faddist society outside, to use the party Whips and to dragoon their own supporters in the House of Commons into passing a Bill in regard to which the business community of the country had no idea the Government were going to take it up and find time for it on an occasion like this. The Bill was a private Bill until 4th August last, just before the Horse rose for the Recess. Then it was taken up by the Government. I do not call that making it a Government Bill. I did not know of it until I looked it up the other day. I think the Postmaster-General has enough to do in looking after his telephones and Post Office business, without taking up this measure and asking us to help him through with it. I dare say there are plenty of Members here who are keen upon this Bill for various reasons, and, as the Debate proceeds, we shall hear the arguments on both sides; but what will those arguments come to when the Government have taken it up and intend to put on the Government Whips? [Interruption.] That is quite right when it is a Government measure or a measure mentioned in the King's Speech to which all of us have devoted our political life, and have come here to support. We want the Government Whips on for any measure put forward by a party, whether it be the Conservative or the Liberal party. We come here for that, arid are whipped for that. I object to the Government Whips being put on for a Bill which has nothing to do with the party, but only some society outside. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite are quite welcome to what they can get out of my observation. There is a great distinction between measures of this nature and the great measures brought in by respective Governments.
7.0 P.M
I beg to second the Motion for Adjournment. I appeal to the Government not to proceed with this Bill at the end of the Home Rule Debate. I can assure them that their supporters in the country will not thank them for the Bill. If this Bill is passed there will be thousands and, perhaps, tens of thousands of poor girls thrown out of work in London alone. I do not think the Government ought to take up this Bill. I would appeal to the Postmaster-General to drop the Bill to-night and to adjourn the House. There would be no objection to any Bill which the Government has in hand, but this is brought on without notice, when a quarter of the Members in the House had no idea that it was to be brought on or they would have been prepared to oppose it. It is a Bill brought in by a few faddists, which will do no good to anyone, but will do a great deal of harm, not only in London, but in Manchester and, I believe, in Nottingham and other cities where this trade is flourishing, without doing any harm to any birds.
It is a pity the hon. Member did not reserve his opposition to the Bill until after he had heard the arguments advanced in favour of it. He made one statement as to the number of people who are employed which is quite contrary to the fact. When the House knows the facts they will be amazed at the audacity of the hon. Member in having made that statement. I hope the House will give me an opportunity of stating the case for the Bill. It is not a case of faddists. I believe there are Members drawn from every section of the House who are earnestly in favour of the Bill, because they know that unless it passes the horrible cruelty which has been too long permitted in the interests of a trade, which is not an English trade, will continue, and when they hear the statements of myself and my hon. Friends who can put our case before the House, the opposition will be minimised to an extent which will surprise my hon. Friend.
I am amazed at the remarks of the Postmaster-General. He says he is very anxious to state the case for the Bill, but he moved it without a word of explanation, and if no one had risen it would have been carried nemine contradicente.
My hon. Friend wanted to discuss the Adjournment before he discussed the merits of the Bill, and it would have been gross discourtesy if I had not let him.
I certainly accept that. I merely say that the right hon. Gentleman moved the Bill without a word of comment or explanation. The appeal I would make to the Government is this: The business community of this country complains repeatedly that measures are brought forward which interfere with trade and commerce, and this House does not give due consideration to business interests. I am certain that when they know that on a day like this, when most important statements have been made from the two Front Benches, and there is a general desire on the part of hon. Members to ponder and discuss them amongst themselves, it would astonish the business community that under these circumstances, the Government pressed forward this Bill. It has only been taken up by them a short time, and the business community in the East End had no idea that its fate would be decided to-night. If that had been so there would have been processions organised of the workpeople who would be thrown out of employment, and who are in danger of going to the workhouse. But there has been no time to arrange for that. When the Bill came on dealing with the employment of girls at the pit-brow, ample time was given, and an hon. Member on the other side of the House was able to bring the employés round and walk them through the terrace, and let the House see the kind of women who work on the pit-brow. If a longer time had been given for this, whether the business people are right or wrong, they could have come and put their case. It may be that the discussion will convince me and that I shall support the Bill. I have no personal interest, but I have been approached again and again by chambers of commerce and people of that kind, and their arguments certainly are entitled to weight and consideration. You may over-rule them. You may say that poetry and romance ought to outweigh business people. All we are asking is, that they should have ample notice and should be heard in the House. I am certain that our proceedings to-day, in going on after several hours of the utmost mental strain in following the Leaders of the House on both sides, will not commend themselves to the business people of the country, who have money and labour at stake. I appeal to the Government not to withdraw the Bill, but to put it down on a day on which the people interested and the workers can come and state their case in deputation or by attendance at the House to hon. Members.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent and declined then to put that Question. Debate resumed.
I do not think the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman are-likely to dissipate or diminish the objection of those who think the Bill ought not to be taken. The business community do not realise that this has been made a Government Bill. That all-important fact requires a great deal of sinking into the community, which has hitherto looked upon the Bill as a purely private Bill. I have only just realised that it is to be put through with all the power of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman rather scoffed at the hon. Member who talked about ten thousand people. I am not so sure that from first to last, directly or indirectly, ten thousand people are not concerned. Even if one thousand are concerned the Bill should not be suddenly converted from a private Bill into a Government Bill, and their interests jeopardised without due notice. I think even the opinion of the London Chamber of Commerce has not been had upon this particular Bill since it became a Government Bill. When that opinion was expressed it was a private Bill.
They came to see me after the Government had taken over the Bill.
I am glad to have elicited that, but I still complain, quite apart from the merits of the Bill, that it is not known to the public in general what the London Chamber of Commerce has done in the matter or what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I am sure all he said ought to be reported in the most public manner, but it escaped me, and I am a careful reader of the newspapers, and it may have escaped other people as veil as me. There are really very good reasons, and the right hon. Gentleman might take them into account when he hears them put from his own side. I submit, as a man who is occupied in business affairs continually in the City, that it is unfair that this Bill, having been converted into a public Bill, should be rushed through on a night like this with all the power of the Government behind it to the detriment of so many workpeople and others, who, whether the Bill is good or not, will be injuriously affected by its passing.
May I not appeal to the House, after we have had this preliminary discussion, to state my case to them? It is rather hard, in a non-controversial Bill, when the Minister in charge may not state the case for the Bill without objection being taken to it. If the case for the Bill be so weak or so unsupported by evidence or facts that it is clear the House is against it, of course it will not pass. If, on the other hand, the case for it is so overwhelming that we may be able to persuade persons who are now doubtful or hostile of the strength of our case, the House might be willing to accept the Bill after three or four hours' discussion. I appeal to those who object to the Bill to let us, at any rate, get the Second Reading in order that I may state the case for it.
I appeal to the Government not to take this Bill to-night. The trade are unprepared. We did not know last Thursday that the Bill was going to come before the House. The London Chamber of Commerce are to meet again on Wednesday to discuss the matter, and it would be unfair to the House, now that the City of London knows for the first time that the Government as a Government are taking it over, to discuss it now. There are 5,000 people and £3,000,000 employed in the trade, and it is unfair for the Government to jump upon the City of London a measure of this kind without the city being prepared for it. We want to hear two sides of the question, and the other side are not prepared with their answer.
If we consent to take the Bill to-night, will the right hon. Gentleman promise not to use the Closure?
After all, what is objected to by some of my hon. Friends—I think they are not very many—is that the Bill should pass. If we get a Second Reading I will undertake that every possible objection to it shall be heard by me, and that we shall have in Committee the most ample discussion upon all these questions. Any objection that my hon. Friend (Mr. Hinds) makes will receive from me the most full and respectful consideration. When we get into Committee anything that he has to say will carry with me, and those who feel disposed to vote with me upon this, the utmost consideration and respect. It is not a controversial Bill. It is approved by a very large number of people outside. The objectors are comparatively few, and for that reason we might get a Second Reading to-night.
I know nothing about the Bill, but the circumstances are such as to excite my curiosity. I notice that the support for the proposal for the Adjournment is almost entirely upon the merits of the Bill. It is supported by those who are opposed to the Bill. We have not had its merits discussed, and it is impossible to have any full discussion on a Motion such as this. I take it that the Bill has some merits, and that, there is something to be said for it. The Bill has been taken up by the Government, and it has obtained a large measure of support on both sides of the House. In these circumstances it is desirable that we should know something more fully about the Bill, and to-night, when we have an adequate amount of time in the early part of the Session, which may be crowded, and in which which we may not in future have a similar opportunity, I suggest that we should hear something about the merits on both sides, for it appears that there is very serious conflict as to the facts of the case. It seems to me that it would be quite competent and possible to carry on the discussion in such a way as to secure that there will not be a Division on the Second Reading to-night.
Unlike some Members who have spoken on this matter, I do know something about the merits, and as to how the Bill is regarded on both sides of the House. As to the statement that no notice has been given that it has been taken up as a Government measure, I have had the great advantage of having a paper sent to me by the London Chamber of Commerce, and I am in my place tonight to listen to the discussion on the Bill, having arranged to give my time for that purpose. When we have such a large attendance as we have now, it seems to me that, the Bill will receive proper attention. I think that out of sympathy with the large bird population involved, we should take the discussion to-night.
I wish to ask why the Government have made this a Government Bill, and why it is proposed to take the Second Reading on a night when there is so much work to do. The Bill affects many thousands of men, women, and children.
The hon. Member can bring in these arguments on the Second Reading Debate, but not on a Motion for the Adjournment of the Debate.
I object to the Debate on the Bill being taken to-night. Now that it is a Government Bill, the persons affected should have full notice of the fact, in order that they may bring pressure on the Government. The right hon. Gentleman says he is willing that the Debate should be adjourned after he has stated his case. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I object to a one-sided statement of the case, especially after the deputation that waited upon the right hon. Gentleman from the London Chamber of Commerce elicited the statement that there has been a secret inquiry into the facts in connection with the plumage trade, and that he refused to give any of the figures to the London Chamber of Commerce or to other persons. That being so, it is exceedingly unfair that this Bill should be forced through by the Government Whips until the whole community have had an opportunity of seeing the figures which were obtained as the result of the secret inquiry. I submit that the House is not in a fit position to-night to discuss this matter, which is purely one of business and trade affecting the industry and the livelihood of a large number of people. As soon as the question of the adjournment is settled by the rejection of the Motion, the House would clear, and the matter would not have the attention it deserves. The business which engaged our attention earlier to-day has been a great strain to me, and I feel myself that we shall not have justice done in a matter of this kind if the discussion is proceeded with now.
I wish to ask my right hon. Friend whether he would consider the propriety of not putting on the Government Whips in the Division on the Second Reading. If he would not do that, I think a great many of the objections to the discussion taking place now would melt away.
If I could get an assurance from the objectors to the Bill that they would allow the discussion to proceed without dividing on the proposal to Adjourn the Debate, I certainly would accept that suggestion.
I favour the Motion for the Adjournment of the Debate for reasons entirely different from any of those, so far, advanced. Session after Session Departmental Bills have been dropped by the Government, and I think it is rather strange that they should find time for a private Bill of this character, while some of these Departmental Bills, which would be of incalculable advantage to thousands of people in this country, are waiting to be passed. It is a most extraordinary act on the part of the Government, and I most assuredly will vote for the Adjournment.
Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
The House divided: Ayes, 49; Noes, 337.
Division No. 40.] AYES. [7.24 p.m. Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Henry, Sir Charles Pearce, William (Limehouse) Bigland, Alfred Hinds, John Pringle, William M. R. Booth, Frederick Handel Hodge, John Quilter, Sir William Eley C. Bowerman, Charles W. Hohler, G. F. Rees, Sir J. D. Bull, Sir William James Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Hunt, Rowland Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Stewart, Gershom Denison-Pender, J. C. Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Swift, Rigby Denniss, E. R. B. Kyffin-Taylor, G. Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) Dixon, C. H. Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Valentia, Viscount Esslemont, George Birnie Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Watt, Henry A. Falle, Bertram Godfray Mac Caw, William J. Mac Geagh Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Middlemore, John Throgmorton Yeo, Alfred William Gretton, John Newton, Harry Kottingham Young, William (Perthshire, East) Hambro, Angus Valdemar Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Sir—Sir Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) E. Cornwall and Mr. T. Davies. Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.) NOES. Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Joyce, Michael Acland, Francis Dyke Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Kelly, Edward Adamson, William Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Kennedy, Vincent Paul Addison, Dr. Christopher Essex, Sir Richard Walter Kilbride, Denis Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Agnew, Sir George William Faber, George D. (Clapham) Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford Ainsworth, John Stirling Farrell, James Patrick Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Aitken, Sir William Max Fell, Arthur Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Alden, Percy Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Lardner, James C. R. Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Larmor, Sir J. Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Ffrench, Peter Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Armitage, Robert Field, William Leach, Charles Arnold, Sydney Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Levy, Sir Maurice Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Baird, John Lawrence Fitzgibbon, John Lewisham, Viscount Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Fitzroy. Hon. Edward A. Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W) Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Flavin, Michael Joseph Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Baldwin, Stanley Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R. Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gardner, Ernest Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Gastrell, Major W. Houghton Lundon, Thomas Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Gelder, Sir William Alfred Lyell, Charles Henry Barnes, George N. Gibbs, G. A. Lynch, A. A. Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) Gill, Alfred Henry Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. Barrie, H. T. Gilmour, Captain John Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Gladstone, W. G. C. McGhee, Richard Beauchamp, Sir Edward Glanville, H. J. Mackinder, Halford J. Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Goldstone, Frank Maclean, Donald Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Grant, James Augustus Macmaster, Donald Bethell, Sir John Henry Greene, Walter Raymond Mac Neill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Bird, Alfred Greig, Colonel James William Macpherson, James Ian Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward MacVeagh, Jeremiah Black, Arthur W. Griffith, Ellis Jones M'Callum, Sir John M. Boland, John Pius Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) M'Curdy, Charles Albert Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) M'Kean, John Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Brady, Patrick Joseph Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lines., Spalding) Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) M'Micking, Gilbert Brunner, John F. L. Hackett, John Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. Haddock, George Bahr Marshall, Arthur Harold Burn, Colonel C. R. Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) Mason, David M. (Coventry) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hall, Frederick (Normanton) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Butcher, John George Hamersley, Alfred St. George Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Millar, James Duncan Byles, Sir William Pollard Hancock, John George Molloy, Michael Campion, W. R. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Molteno, Percy Alport Carr-Gomm, H. W. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Cator, John Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Money, L. G. Chiozza Cave, George Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Montagu, Hon. E. S. Cawley, Harold T. (Lanes.. Heywood) Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Mooney, John J. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Morgan, George Hay Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Hayden, John Patrick Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Chancellor, Henry George Hay ward, Evan Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Chapple, Dr. William Allen Hazleton, Richard Morison, Hector Clancy, John Joseph Helme, Sir Norval Watson Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Clay, Captain H. H Spender Hemmerde, Edward George Muldoon, John Clive, Captain Percy Archer Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Clough, William Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Murphy, Martin J. Clyde, James Avon Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Nolan, Joseph Condon, Thomas Joseph Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Norman, Sir Henry Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Higham, John Sharp Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Cotton, William Francis Hills, John Waller O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Courthope, George Loyd Hoare, Samuel John Gurney O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Hogge, James Myles O'Doherty, Philip Craik, Sir Henry Holt, Richard Durning O'Donnell, Thomas Croft, Henry Page Hope, Harry (Bute) O'Dowd, John Crooks, William Hope, John Deans (Haddington) O'Grady, James Cullinan, John Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Malley, William Dawes, James Arthur Hume-Williams, William Ellis O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Delany, William Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. John, Edward Thomas O'Shee, James John Dillon, John Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Sullivan, Timothy Donelan, Captain A. Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Doris, William Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Parker, James (Halifax) Doughty, Sir George Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Parry, Thomas H. Du Cros, Arthur Philip Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Duffy, William J. Jowett, Frederick William Perkins, Walter Frank
Peto, Basil Edward Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) Walton, Sir Joseph Philipps, Colonel Ivor (Southampton) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. Pointer, Joseph Sanders, Robert Arthur Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Pollock, Ernest Murray Sanderson, Lancelot Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Pratt, J. W. Scanlan, Thomas Watson, Hon. W. Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Webb, H. Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Sheehy, David Weigall, Captain A. G. Radford, George Heynes Sherwell, Arthur James Weston, Colonel J. W. Raffan, Peter Wilson Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport) Ratcliff, R. F. Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Rawson, Colonel Richard H. Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) White. Patrick (Meath, North) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Snowden, Philip Whitehouse, John Howard Reddy, Michael Spear, Sir John Ward Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Rendall, Atheistan Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Staveley-Hill, Henry Wills, Sir Gilbert Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) Wing, Thomas Edward Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Thomas, J. H. Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) Robinson, Sidney Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) Worthington-Evans, L. Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Wright. Henry Fitzherbert Roche, Augustine (Louth) Thorne, William (West Ham) Yate, Colonel Charles Edward Roe, Sir Thomas Touche, George Alexander Younger, Sir George Rothschild, Lionel de Toulmin, Sir George Yoxall, Sir James Henry Rowlands, James Trevelyan, Charles Philips Rowntree, Arnold Tullibardine, Marquess of TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. Royds, Edmund Verney, Sir Harry Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.
Original Question again proposed.
After the discussion which we have had the House will probably desire that I should make a statement in moving the Second Reading of the Bill which would be sufficiently comprehensive for the information of those who are inclined to support the Bill and those who oppose it. The Bill is intended to protect birds coming from abroad whose plumage is coveted on account of its beauty, and whose numbers are in danger of being reduced actually to vanishing point on account of the beauty of their plumage. It is also designed to protect birds from cruel and unnecessarily wanton slaughter during the period of reproduction. The numbers killed in this trade are perfectly incredible. There are five or six sales conducted during the year in the City, and the plumages are exhibited in the warehouses in Cutler Street. An article in the "Fortnightly Review," which I have myself checked for the purposes of accuracy, sets out comprehensively some of the large number of birds so killed and exposed for sale. In December, 1912, there was put up for auction the plumage of 75,000 ospreys. In June, 1913, there was put up the plumage of 77,000 ospreys and 22,000 crowned pigeons of a particular species well known for the beauty of its plumes, 25,000 humming birds, 162,000 Smyrnian kingfishers, and so on, and the list can be almost indefinitely prolonged. It shows that the contention of the trade that the destruction is not widespread is an idle contention, and has; no relation to the facts of the case at all.
Many of these birds are among the most beautiful objects in nature, and what is forgotten very often in this controversy is that once you permit one of the species of these birds to disappear, there is no force known to man by which it can ever be replaced. They are gone once for ever. If we permitted this trade to be continued; we should without any doubt be accessories to the fact, and should be condemned for our slackness in the matter. It has been said in the course of the Debate that this Bill has been rather sprung on the House. That is hardly the case. The Bill is almost identical with those that have preceded it. The first of these proposals came from Lord Avebury. It was moved in the House of Lords. Then a Select Committee of the House of Lords met and inquired into the extent of the trade and the methods by which it was conducted. It held a most searching inquiry, and the facts which it elicited undoubtedly startled the opinion of many persons in this country who had not hitherto given any attention to the trade and revealed the cruelties and horrors connected with it. One of the conclusions of the Committee was that there was no reason to suppose that the exclusion from the market of the plumage of rare birds would materially affect the feathered trade of this country as a whole. Any reduction in the feathers of these birds would be more than counterbalanced by the use of other feathers and of artificial flowers. Again, it said that the methods employed for slaughter are such as in many cases, and especially in that of aigrettes, do involve both the destruction of the parents and the young birds, and also the eggs; and, finally, it went on to say that they are satisfied that many birds are greatly reduced in number und that others are in danger of being exterminated. I do not think that this House of Commons, without any distinction of party, would desire to be connected with a traffic which is conducted under the conditions set out.
What is the date of that Report?
That was in January of 1908. The Bill then passed the House of Lords, with its provisions strengthened, as a consequence of the inquiry made by the Committee, and it was introduced into this House by the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord Robert Cecil) substantially in the form in which it left the House of Lords. In 1909 the senior Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) and the junior Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald) were united in proposing the same Bill to the House of Commons. That shows, therefore, that there is little party feeling or prejudice in the proposals which they made. In 1910, 1911 and 1912 the Member for Totten-ham (Mr. Alden) proposed similar legislation. Finally, in the early part of last year, the hon. Member opposite the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Page Croft) also introduced this Bill into the House. Therefore there is neither novelty in our proposals nor any party bias about them. What I believe moved the hon. Gentleman in the proposals which he made to the House and which have induced the Government to take up this Bill, is a love of the beauties of nature and the promptings of humanity, which go side by side with that love. Those are the source and guide of our action in this matter; they are what animated us in endeavouring to put a stop to that traffic which is not founded upon reason, which brings no profit to this country—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—I will prove it—and which is a dishonour to the people by whom it is conducted. It may be asked: What made the Government take up a measure which had previously been a private Member's Bill? That is a very reasonable question to ask, and this is the answer: Extermination is very imminent and the danger is very urgent. Already many species of birds have disappeared under the persecution of these traders and their savage allies, and you could not wait until some private Member has been successful in the ballot for promoting a Bill of this character, because, if you did, you would shut your stable door upon a dead horse. The form of the Bill is simple enough. It proposes to prohibit the importation into the United Kingdom of the plumage of any wild bird, and to prevent any person having in possession or being concerned in the sale of such plumage; and there are penalties for infractions. There are exceptions to that, the plumage of birds whose names are on a schedule, the plumage of birds imported alive or for the purpose of food, or, which I really think is an important exception, the plumage of birds imported for scientific purposes under a licence granted by the Board of Trade.
Why are ostriches permitted?
If my hon. Friend is aware of the conditions in which the ostrich plumage is acquired he will see why this question is unnecessary. Coming to the arguments for the Bill, there were regions which at one time were densely inhabited by bird population which have been absolutely struck clear of rare and valuable and beautiful species of birds. It is not merely that there has been considerable slaughter, it is not merely that where they were plentiful they are now scarce; it is far more than that, it is that they have absolutely disappeared from most of their breeding places and their haunts. I am told by those who know about this subject that in Florida and in Carolina, where there were once millions of egrets, you may go to nearly every breeding place and hardly find a specimen of any sort or kind. In Papua, and in New Guinea, the birds of paradise have been almost exterminated. In Australia, despite legislation which the Australians recognised to be necessary, the lyre bird has been almost swept off the face of the earth. In New Guinea, the gowra pigeon, which used to be there in great quantities—and anyone who is familiar with this subject is aware of the beauty of that bird—is hardly to be found at all. Some hon. Gentlemen ask whether any rare species have been absolutely exterminated. I may state that in Trinidad one of the most beautiful birds, the colibris, has greatly suffered. Of eighteen species which existed there not many years ago, thirteen have been absolutely exterminated. Surely, in a case of that sort, the most ardent advocate of the continuation of this trade must have his doubts and must hesitate as to whether the action hitherto pursued its wise or not. Then there is the case of the albatross in the Island of Laysan (Hawai). They were only saved from extermination by the action of the United States Government, who sent a man-of-war there. They found some thirty or forty people engaged in slaughtering these unfortunate birds, not by tens or hundreds or thousands, but by hundreds of thousands.
The bodies of the birds were left to rot and fester in the places where they used to breed. One of the witnesses described it as one of the most horrid sights that the imagination of man could conceive. It is easy to multiply cases of that sort. Knowledge of them has not come in single letters, or from the experience of an odd traveller or an odd explorer; the communications we have received have come from every part of the world; they have found their way into every newspaper in this country; they have been forwarded from every part of the world by travellers, sportsmen, explorers, and even agriculturists, who suffer from the disappearance of many of the most beautiful species of birds. The evidence is unimpeachable and overwhelming. There is another consideration which I will press upon the attention of the House. The breeding of these most beautiful birds is of necessity in remote regions, in solitudes, and the inexorable advance of civilisation tends to destroy the solitudes in which alone those birds can successfully rear their young. That, however, is a matter which we cannot stop. But why should you permit a silly and debasing passion which, after all, is nothing but a relic of savagery and primitive barbarism, to do harm to the most innocent and most beautiful creatures? It is really a case of the vanity of women going hand in hand with the rapacity of men, and I do not see why this House should not, so far as it is able, limit the sphere of their general mischief.
I should like, if I may, to examine the arguments against the' Bill. They are set out in a paper which I think has been circulated to every Member of this House, and which I think is one of the most untrue statements which has ever been put into print. It is issued by the Textile Trade Section of the London Chamber of Commerce, which hon. Gentlemen say have never had a chance of putting their views before the House and the country. That document states, after setting out a, list of objections, that they must not be taken to exhaust the whole of the objections to the Bill. It gives a list one by one, and first sets forth that the markets of this country will be closed to the fancy feather trade, amounting to £350,000, and to the raw ostrich feather trade of more than £2,000,000. What does that suggest? It suggests that the sale of ostrich feathers is to be stopped in this country.
:No.
Then why is it mentioned at all? It is mentioned for the sake of discrediting the Bill, of misleading the public. The Bill expressly exempts the plumage of ostriches from the operation of the Bill. The document goes on to say that the sale of feathers from the poultry yards would be destroyed. The Bill does nothing of the sort, and I do not think hon. Gentlemen opposite contend that poultry are wild birds.
Is the pheasant a wild bird?
For the purpose of this Bill it is expressly exempted, and if the hon. Gentleman had read the Bill he would have seen that. Then we come to what is the real point against the Bill. This document from the London Chamber of Commerce states that the factories of the feather merchant employ a great number of workers who must be regarded as specialists, and who under the Bill would be thrown out of employment. That is the real point with which I am bound to deal. Let us see what the figures of the trade arc. The total imports of feathers last year was £3,570,000, of which £2.500,000 represents ostrich feathers: other fancy feathers amounted to1 £1,070,000; the total exports were £2,100,000, of which ostrich feathers "were £1,750,000; and fancy feathers, with which alone this Bill is concerned, came to £326,000. That, is the value of the exports of all fancy feathers from those particular birds which are affected by the Bill. The value of the feathers of the birds affected by the Bill, from an export point of view, is about. £160,000 a year. I have had the advantage of getting advance figures of the second census of production, and, in the inquiry directed by the Board of Trade, we had the assistance of the feather trade itself. There was a deputation, and they promised that they would give us all the information in their power as to the amount of produce from their factories. We have got the figures, and the total output of all the feather workshops in this country is £710,000; of that £520,000 represents ostrich feathers. There are various products which come to £70,000, and all other feathers which are prohibited by this Bill come to a total value of £120,000. That is the measure of the trade which is going to be affected. And what about the number of persons employed in the trade1? After all, that is the most important point. My hon. Friend talks about thousands of persons being thrown out of employment in London alone. We have had a census also of the persons engaged in that trade. The total number of persons engaged in the trade, whose centres are largely in London and in Manchester, is 3,800.
Are these the figures taken under the Census Production Act?
They are taken from the returns made by the manufacturers. There is no dispute about them.
Why did the right hon. Gentleman challenge my figures when I said thousands?
8. 0.P. M.
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to finish. In addition to these 3,800 there are 160 outworkers. Of the 3,800, 3,200 are engaged on ostrich feathers or ostrich feathers and artificial flowers, leaving between 600 and 700 employed upon the fancy feathers. Of the number I have given an enormous proportion are girls and young women, and the total of the adult male workers is between sixty and seventy. Those are figures which will amaze hon. Gentlemen who have followed this Debate, and who were led to believe that if the Bill passed there would be thousands and thousands of persons who would be thrown out of work by the operation of this Bill. What would happen supposing this feather trade came to an end? The total trade involved, as I pointed out, is £120,000 per annum in this country, and the entrepât trade is £160,000. That trade, of course, gives little employment for persons in this country. The number of persons engaged in this trade of £120,000 per annum is astonishly small. It is really not a question of tens of thousands as my hon. Friend imagined; it is a number considerably under one thousand employed in distribution or manufacture. The real fact of the matter is that the trade is in the hands of a small number of foreigners, who come over, as I know from my own personal experience, from Vienna, Paris or Berlin, and return on the Saturday morning. They take the whole trade abroad practically for manufacture and distribution, and the amount of employment involved in this country is practically nil. It is asked why we should set an example in this legislation. I am bound to answer the question, "Why should we take the lead in this matter?" We have not taken the lead. We are not the first country in Europe, and we are not the first part of the British Empire to legislate in this matter. We really are acting, qua our Colonies, as receivers of stolen goods. The United States set the example, and we ought to be ashamed not to take the lead. Their legislation is infinitely more drastic than anything I have ventured to suggest. Why have they passed that legislation? It is because their minds have been stimulated by the knowledge of what has occurred in their own country and under their own eyes. It is their own forests and their own swamps and their own breeding places which have been devastated and swept clear by those who are guilty of participating in this trade. The Colonies have legislated against exports. There is no manufacture of these goods in the Colonies, and therefore there clearly is no need for provisions against import, and they passed prohibition against the only thing which concerns them—the export trade.
Do they allow them to be imported and made there?
If the hon. Member can point to any import trade into the Australian Colony, I shall be very much astonished; but I will come to that later. The Government have ventured to invite the attendance of the self-governing Colonies and foreign nations to a Conference in London on this subject, based on this condition, that every country attending the Conference should come to it on the express understanding that they should prohibit all entry into that country of the skins and plumage of wild birds, and that every Government taking part in the Conference should undertake to legislate for the prohibition of exports of skins and feathers. So that the countries coming to the Conference would be pledged to legislate against either exports or imports.
When is that Conference to meet?
I hope at once. What is the result of the invitation which we have issued? Portugal, Sweden, Rou-mania, America, Canada, South Africa, China, Switzerland, Turkey, and many of the smaller countries, are coming to the conference so pledged. Belgium says, "we have no interest in the trade, but we reserve the right to ourselves to adopt legislation which the Conference will recommend." Spain, Holland, Austria, and Russia have not yet answered, but they all accepted invitations to a similar conference which was summoned two or three years ago, but which fell through because of the absence of France. Germany has not yet replied; Greece, Denmark, and France are the only European countries which have refused to attend. I say, therefore, that we have an overwhelming demonstration of the trend of opinion in Europe on this matter. We have got their sympathy, and they are pledged to cooperation in this work. What about England? How does public opinion go here I think I can. quote in support of this Bill the opinion which is represented in papers so diverse as the "Times," the "Manchester Guardian," the "Daily Chronicle," the "Spectator," the "Field," the "Pall Mall Gazette," the "Westminster Gazette." Surely there never was such a concatenation of literary journalism as is represented by those papers.
I have got here from all the most distinguished associations and societies in England resolutions on behalf of this Bill. And this is at least remarkable: there is a thing which is called—perhaps that is a disrespectful word—there is a body in existence which is called "The Society for the Economic Preservation of Birds." Its chairman is the secretary of the Zoological Society, and as the secretary of the Zoological Society he had, what I think was the most humiliating position, of having to bring me a resolution from his society in support of a Bill to which he was personally opposed. I have here a list of something like twenty distinguished societies interested in the preservation and protection of birds and natural life, which have all passed resolutions in favour of this Bill, and if you come to individuals, there is not a profession in this country which will not send distinguished men, opposed to each other perhaps on every other conceivable subject, who desire to support and advocate the passage of this Bill. Let me say, in conclusion, that destruction and extermination are perfectly easy and but little time is wanted to bring their labours to an end.
Would the right hon. Gentleman say why France is so strongly opposed to this?
At once. There are 50,000 people employed in France in making up feathers and in the feather trade, and the French Government is afraid, apparently, to face their opposition. France will be responsible for her own action, but she will not manufacture as she does now for the English market, and she will not manufacture, as she does now, for the markets of all those countries which have agreed to come to the conference, a fact which is probably overlooked by the hon. Gentleman. She will manufacture, perhaps, for herself, but in this matter the responsibility will rest on her head, and we shall be free from it. I venture to say that extermination and destruction are easy, but there is nothing that man can do that will ever replace those species which you are content to see wiped off the face of the earth. I do hope that the House of Commons, without distinction of party and without any introduction of party into this matter, because it is entirely outside all party questions, will, by an overwhelming majority express its determination to have done with a foul trade.
I beg to move, as an Amendment, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words, "upon this day six months."
I should like to say at the outset that I have not the slightest interest, directly or indirectly, in the feather trade. I take it up purely as a trade question, in order that a home industry may not be destroyed. The Bill will not save the life of a single bird, and that is what makes it futile and useless, and that is why I so strongly object to the time of the House in a busy Session being taken up with such a Bill. International action and international action alone, as the right hon. Gentleman admits, by the Conference which he tells us he is about to call, can effect the object that he desires. Vienna, Berlin, Paris and London are the only cities where there is any feather trade, and none of these will attend the Conference. Why, if there is to be a Conference, should this Bill be forced through the House before it is understood by the people of the country? Why not wait to see what countries will join the Conference, and what joint action is necessary, and put that into a Bill? I listened very carefully to hear what the countries were that were coming to the Conference, and, as I suspected, those countries most interested in the feather trade are not coming, and do not intend to come. They would be only too glad if this Bill is passed, as the whole of the English trade will be diverted to Paris and Berlin, and naturally those countries will be very glad for us to make a present to them of this very lucrative trade. The right hon. Gentleman tells us it is small, and that there are only sixty or seventy men engaged in it, and six or eight hundred women and girls. Those are not correct.
Does the hon. Gentleman doubt them? They are supplied by the trade.
They are not by any moans complete, and do not allow for the immense number of people who are engaged in the distributing trade. Let me remind the right hon. Gentleman, when a deputation waited upon him he was told frankly to his face that as long as his inquiries wore secret the trade would not give him correct information, and he could not expect to get it. The whole of this Bill is founded on information which has been obtained in secret, and is entirely inaccurate, and is misleading not only to the right hon. Gentleman and those who support him, but to the country. Nobody is more willing than I am to agree with the right hon. Gentleman on the object of this Bill. Its objects are, first to preserve the birds from extermination, any birds and not merely beautiful birds, and the next is to prevent their cruel and wanton slaughter. If this Bill really did that effectively I would support it, but inasmuch as it will do nothing to that desired end, but will, as a necessary and bounden and irrevocable consequence, destroy what trade there is here and send it abroad, I oppose the Bill, which is bad in principle and bad in operation.
The right hon. Gentleman has brought a charge against the London Chamber of Commerce which is entirely undeserved. I am a member of the London Chamber, of Commerce. I associate with the members of the London Chamber of Commerce. I know them to be gentlemen who are above anything of the kind. I wish to repudiate, I believe, the unintentional slander on the right hon. Gentleman's part in what he said about the London Chamber of Commerce. They are men of honour; as much men of honour as the right hon. Gentleman himself, and they never would be guilty of the trickery he accuses them. What did he say? He said it was a misrepresentation to say that the ostrich feather trade would go abroad. What the London Chamber of Commerce mean by that is this: At the present moment London is the centre of the feather trade of the world. All the fancy feathers come here, and all the ostrich feathers. Ninety per cent, of the ostrich feathers are re-exported to Paris, Vienna, and Berlin. The Continental buyers who come here for fancy feathers buy the ostrich feathers all in the one market. The moment you divert the whole of the fancy trade to Paris or Vienna or Berlin, probably the Continental buyers will have to go to Paris to buy the fancy feathers, without which they cannot do, for the great industry employing forty or fifty thousand people, but they will not go to two markets, and will make arrangements for the ostrich feathers to be shipped direct to Paris, and thus the market in ostrich feathers will go in time from London.
May I ask if the hon. Member has evidence to that effect from the ostrich merchants?
I have been asked to put that point before the House. The London Chamber of Commerce is composed of men of business, not mere theorisers or members of birds' protection societies who perhaps know very little about the feather trade. The Port of London Authority authorise me to say that the port dues alone on feathers imported into this country last year were £31,400, and they are unwilling to lose that money.
Does that include ostrich feathers?
That is the total. These are the charges on the goods that come into their docks, and they point out that out of that £31,000, £8,000 goes in dockers' wages. These people will be affected by the Bill; so that when it comes to a question of thousands of people being employed hon. Members opposite are not so very wide of the mark. So much for my justification of the London Chamber of Commerce. That, at all events, is a view which they may fairly take, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will now withdraw the insinuation of bad faith which he made against that body.
I did not accuse them of bad faith. I simply asked why they put these figures into their statement against the Bill if they did not wish to suggest that that is part of the loss which would be suffered if the Bill passed.
I am sure that they were not actuated by any wrong motives, and it has been explained to me that what they meant by these figures was that the ostrich feather trade would be diverted to the Continent. If this Bill would really accomplish the object of the right hon. Gentleman I would support it, and so would every right-minded man. But what is the Bill? It is to make it criminal, under a penalty of £5 for the first offence and £25 for every subsequent offence, with imprisonment in default of payment of the fine, for any person to import, sell, exchange, possess, or use any feathers of any foreign birds of any kind.
Any wild bird?
Any bird with the exceptions mentioned in the Bill. The definition in the Bill includes any bird rarely or never found alive in a wild state in this country; therefore, I say that it includes every foreign bird save those excepted in the Bill. The Schedule, which is the shortest Schedule I have ever seen, excludes the ostrich and the eider duck. The avowed object of the right hon. Gentleman is to destroy an ancient, honest, and lawful trade, which is the mainstay of a large number of people, and affords a light, skilled occupation for many men, women, and children. I think the House will agree that it is a very extreme measure. The Bill, as the right hon. Gentleman said, is simple. It is extremely simple, sweepingly simple, and sweepingly extreme. An extreme measure requires extreme justification. May I call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that all over the world foreign birds are in the habit of moulting their feathers, and that the enormous bulk of the trade in foreign feathers consists of moulted feathers? Take the peacock, for instance. Peacock's feathers are moulted, and they are collected by Hindoos. No Hindoo will kill anything, and he never kills a peacock. But these feathers are absolutely prohibited. Then there is the aigrette, which always forms the principal foundation of Bills of this kind. Two-thirds of the aigrette plumes imported into this country are moulted.
What is their value if they are moulted?
Moulted feathers have a great value. Those which are taken from the bird after it is shot are more valuable, because in many cases the moulted feathers get injured, but many of the moulted plumes are in perfect condition. [An HON MEMBER: "NO."] The British Minister at Venezuela reported as long ago as the 14th January, 1909, that 25 per cent, of the aigrette plumes that came to this country were moulted plumes.
Are you quoting the actual words?
They are from a letter addressed to the Royal Society for the Preservation of Birds.
Is the hon. Gentleman professing to quote the actual words, or is he quoting a transcript? Because there is a very important difference.
The right hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity of seeing that for himself. I have been told that these were the actual words. In any case, I do not see how any transcription could alter the 25 per cent. If everybody, from the London Chamber of Commerce to a British Minister abroad, is to be looked upon with so much suspicion, I have nothing further to say. When I differ from the right hon. Gentleman's figures, I give a good reason. The right hon. Gentleman when he differs from mine gives none—nothing but suspicion.
This question has been raised before. I think if the hon. Gentleman looks at a very interesting and eloquent article in the "Fortnightly Review" of this month, he will see side by side the actual words of the Minister and the transcript quoted by the London Chamber of Commerce; they bear no relation the one to the other.
The right hon. Gentleman will perhaps read the actual words, and then we shall see for ourselves. At present I submit that what I have quoted is correct. It is not the first time that it has been quoted. I hope that by and by the matter will be cleared up. However that may be, things have altered since that date. The right hon. Gentleman said that the aigrette has disappeared from South America, and that therefore the export has been forbidden under the American law. That is true. The only market now is Venezuela, and the landowners there are cultivating the aigrette as a domestic bird with a view to selling the plumes for a profit. The result is that two-thirds of the plumes coming to this country are moulted plumes, which are very carefully collected by the people who keep these heronies in Venezuela, breed these birds, and give shelter and protection to them by hundreds and thousands— that of the total number of herons' plumes coming to this country two-thirds are obtained in this way. We can never prevent the native1 shooting herons for food or for the aigrette—they are very good food. You cannot prevent settlers shooting them. You cannot prevent collectors shooting them. In that way a good many of these plumes come from these countries, and in that way they are most valuable. But to say that there is any cruelty in regard to the manner in which the plumes are got off the birds is quite wrong. It may be cruel, and it is cruel to shoot them in the nesting season, and if there were means of stopping it I would be the first to support those means, but this Bill does not do it; the birds will be shot just the same. There is not a line or Clause which will have the slightest effect on the shooting of these birds.
Consider the false notions that are held in regard to this question of cruelty. I was talking in the precincts of this House to an hon. Member who is highly respected and a man of great intelligence. He told? me he was going to vote for this Bill because traders skin the birds alive in order to preserve the brilliancy of the plumes. A more absurd idea, of course, could not possibly be entertained. It is perfectly clear that the aigrettes are not to be caught by salt being put upon their tails, and then their being skinned alive. No aigrette can be got until it has been shot, and I suppose the proportion of aigrettes killed is about as great as the number of pheasants which are killed in a drive. It is perfectly clear that there can be no object whatever in skinning the birds alive. The way that notion has got abroad is this: The merchants call these live plumes and dead plumes, and live feathers and dead feathers—the live plumes and feathers meaning those that have not been moulted, and the dead plumes and feathers those that have been moulted. Some sagacious individual, perhaps maliciously, circulated the idea that the live feathers were feathers taken from the bird whilst alive—being ruthlessly torn from it. If hon. Members of this House vote for this Bill with such ideas in their minds, all I can say that it is pretty hopeless to contend against it. Take another class of feathers, those of the green parrot, birds which are so disastrous to agriculture in India. They are not allowed to be exported, but they are killed just the same. Hundreds of thousands of them are killed every year by the farmers and peasants because of the damage they do to the crops. They lie and rot, and they are the waste products of Nature. They are like the moulted feathers.
No, no!
Is my hon. Friend going to say that the green parrot, which is so destructive to agriculture, has not to be shot? It is shot in large numbers. Let me quote to him this note on India:—
"Of all the British Colonies or Dependencies. India alone has contributed skin and plumage on a scale worth mentioning.
Mr. Maxwell-Lefroy, the Indian Government entomologist, says that:—
"Of the Indian birds known to be exported, only the cattle egret and the jay are beneficial to the country in any way."
He holds:—
"That if the trade can lighten the burden of India's paroquets, ibises, storks and herons, it should be encouraged. Paroquets, cranes, house sparrows, common green barbets, and bee eaters, are harmful to India. Unfortunately for that great but poor Empire, the notification was designed to please a few individuals and not to benefit the country."
Let us come to Australia. Mr. Tudor, the Australian Minister for Customs, writes to say that:—
"The West Australian Government are pressing upon the Union Government to repeal the laws against the export of Emu skins, because the animals have increased in such large numbers that they are breaking down the vermin-proof fencing all over Western Australia, and the crops are suffering."
One word more with regard to the aigrette. Things have changed. Venezuela passed in 1910 a law which protects all the birds in that country necessary to be protected. I have the Act here.
I think it only refers to two of the provinces of Venezuela.
That may be, but Venezuela is a very large place, and two provinces even may cover a considerable area. Those two provinces shelter an enormous number of birds. The birds there are taxed, and licences are granted for the right to trade to this and other countries. It is a perfectly legitimate trade, and carried on without any cruelty whatever by persons who are licensed by the Government, who rear the birds, kill them, and export them and their feathers in the proper way, just as we in this country kill the ordinary barn-door fowl. If the hon. Member says that it is wrong to kill aigrettes because they are beautiful I cannot argue with him. I can point out the correspondence that has been going on in the columns of the "Times" for the last few days, and can quote the high priest of bird protectors, the great engineer of this movement, Sir H. H. Johnston, who says that he is driven to do this because it is wicked to kill beautiful birds.
Hear, hear.
He also says:—
"There is nothing inherently wrong in the wearing of plumage. As to its not being more barbaric to kill wild birds than domesticated birds, I agree, but it is infinitely more stupid."
So it has come to this: It is not wicked, nor barbaric, but stupid. Sir H. H. Johnston gives a reason for it:—
"The wild birds referred to sire necessary element in the balance of nature in these tropical regions from which moat of them are derived."
The only exception that is given to this is that of the tsetse-fly in Africa, which prevents the birds nesting.
The hon. Member is quite wrong in that statement. I myself have seen numerous birds nesting.
I can only give you the authority of Sir David Bruce, F.R.S., who, writing from Nyasaland, on 14th March, says:—
"I do not believe there is any foundation whatever for the statement that the indiscriminate slaughter of bird has been carried out to such an extent in parts of Africa infested by the tsetse-fly that nature's check on the increase of this insect is weakened."
And Mr. E. E. Austin, of the British Museum, says the same thing, and Professor Robert Newstead, F.R. S., of Liverpool University, says:—
"There is no authentic evidence to prove that the destruction of birds in any part of Africa has any bearing upon the increase of tsetse-flies. Moreover, I can definitely state that insectiverous birds are not known to prey upon tsetse-flies to any marked extent."
Against all this I have to put the authority of the hon. Member for Mansfield.
What the hon. Gentleman said was that there were no birds in the tsetse-fly country.
I did not mean to say that, and, if I did say it, it was a mere slip of the tongue. The next thing Sir Harry Johnston says is that these birds are almost invariably beautiful features of the landscape: 98 per cent, of these birds are in the tropics, and nobody ever sees them but the travellers, I always thought that animals and birds were made for the use of man, and we do not preserve them in order that travellers that go into the swamps should have the landscape made more beautiful for them. This Bill will not alter that in the least bit or prevent hundreds of these birds from being shot. The next thing he says is that many of them are of economic importance, such as in the production of guano. Guano is produced in Brazil and Chili. I do not know and I never heard that any birds are ever imported from Peru and Chili. This Bill excludes a large number of birds which should be extremely useful to the trade, and not only has it no effect in preventing the slaughter of birds, but it goes too far.
One word more about the next Clause in the Bill. There is a Clause in this Bill that licenses collectors. Collectors may shoot as many rare birds as they think proper if they have a license from the Board of Trade. The first thing we know when rare birds have vanished is an obituary notice in the papers. I have no doubt there are many birds which have been exterminated in this way, and I am going to submit to the House that it is not by the trade, but by the collectors that rare birds are exterminated, It amuses me to call to mind that the late President of the United States, Mr. Roosevelt, when he went collecting and shooting, boasted in the newspapers of having shot ostriches, male and female, at 60 and 80 yards, as if that showed great prowess. I should think it extremely easy to do that. He boasts of having killed these wild ostriches, which are very scarce at the present time. The greatest enemies of rare birds, I agree, are civilisation and agriculture, and in all these places, in the United States of America and the Colonies, where civilisation has advanced, and towns are being built, forests cleared, and swamps drained,
the birds are in danger of being exterminated, and are becoming rare. Now this Bill will allow the collector to wreak his sweet will upon the birds. Whatever the bird is, the rarer it is, the more money he gets, and if it is the last of its kind, it would be the rarest and choicest of all. That is the reason why I should never in any circumstances vote for any Bill under which the collector is to be allowed to shoot rare birds, and import them into this country. I want to put this argument to the right hon. Gentleman. Hare birds are never bought when the quantity of them is too small and the demand is only for the abundant and continual supply year after year. The very best reason for knowing the aigrette is not in danger of extermination is that for the last twelve years enormous supplies of plumes have been coming to this country have never fallen off, and it is never likely to fall off, and now that they are being domesticated they never will fall off. There is only the question of cruelty, and that is regulated in the two states of Venezuela, If the hon. Member can show me any provision in this Bill by which cruelty will be prevented I will support it. There is not a word in the Bill that prevents cruelty of any kind. May I point out to the right hon Gentleman that but for the fact that ostriches have been used in trade, the ostrich would have ceased to exist, and would have been exterminated altogether.
I will leave other hon. Members to deal with the trade; not that I have not got plenty of material, but I have no doubt that other hon. Members will be able to deal with that. The hon. Gentleman has chosen, for some unexplained reason, to say things about the committee of the Ornithological Society on birds, which I am certain, on reflection, he would never utter again. The Committee upon the economic preservation of birds, consists of some of the most celebrated men of this country, such as Mr. F. G. Aflalo, Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society; Professor Gilbert Bourne, Fellow of the Royal Society (University of Oxford); Alfred Heneage Cocks, Fellow of the Zoological Society, etc. Those are fellows of the Zoological Society. There is also on the same Committee F. Martin Duncan, F.R.P.S.; Douglas English. B.A., F.R.P.S., president of the Zoological Photographic Club; Professor Gamble, D.Sc., F.R.S., F.Z.S., of the University of Birmingham; Professor Stanley Gardiner, M.A., F.R.S., F.Z.S:, of the University of Cambridge. I have only read one-third of the names. I should think that out of thirty odd members there are more than twenty members of the Royal Society and the Zoological Society whose names could be quoted in favour of my argument, and that is a body of men whom the right hon. Gentleman. I think, might have treated with a little more respect. What is their object? Their object is his object. Where they differ is that they believe that this Bill will not affect the object in view, but will kill what good work they have been doing in the past. May I just read some concise selections from the report:— to Paris. Ours is a beneficial arrangement under which the birds will be protected.
I suggest that you should suspend this Bill, have your conference with the representatives of the various countries interested, get Berlin and Paris in if you? can, and arrange to take some measures together. You have the basis of such an arrangement in what the Committee of the Economic Society for the Preservation of Birds has already done. You should get a list made out and let that society and the Government co-operate. Let the traders be on that inquiry, and let the three agree as to which birds are rare, useful to mankind, or useful to agriculture, And then put that list in the Bill. If that were done, I am sure there is not a Member of the House who will not vote for it. That is the only way in which the object of this Bill can be carried out. The Government have been approached by the Foreign Secretary, and they never will agree. There is no Royal Commission which could be appointed which would not contain many of the men who are on the list of the Committee for the Economic Preservation of Birds. From that list you could nominate a commission which would have the confidence of everybody, and I ask the Government to co-operate with them in order to regulate this trade and not destroy it. I ask this House to pause before it runs the risk of destroying a trade which has so many ramifications, and which supports so many thousands of people merely on the evidence which the right hon. Gentleman opposite knows is mere hearsay.
No.
I have told the House? why. We asked the right hon. Gentleman to disclose his evidence and he refused to do it.
That is not so. The figures I quoted were from the Board of Trade returns. There is no secrecy about them. The trade promised that they would co-operate in the collection of these statistics, and they carried out their promise. The figures I have given were prepared by the Board of Trade, with the assistance of the trade itself.
Then it is a great pity that the right hon. Gentleman did not snake those figures public before this discussion took place. It is a pity that up to the last lie refused to give us any of the information which he possessed, and that information has been withheld from us until now.
Certainly not. I only got the figures I have given yesterday.
Those figures may be perfectly correct, although I do not think they are. The traders refused to give accurate figures, and the other figures are merely from the distributing trade, such as the millinery trade, fancy flowers, the feather trade, and the domestic poultry trade. We have had no figures at all. I suppose the right hon. Gentleman has got the figures. I would like to know if he is going to run the risk of injuring all these industries in order to get a personal triumph by carrying the Second Reading of this Bill, not one line of which will protect a single one of these birds, and he is doing this in order to hold himself and his supporters up as an example for the rest of the world to follow. I do not mean to say anything offensive, but when their interests and their sentiments conflict, of course their sentiments will go by the board. The other countries will carry on this trade, and we shall be none the better for it. Extreme prohibitive legislation ought to be well thought out. It ought to be reasonable. It ought not to interfere with trade without the strongest possible reason for doing so, and none have been set before the House to-night, except sentimental reasons based on improper evidence. Lastly, I appeal to hon. Members of this House to keep an open mind and not to vote in favour of this Bill until they are sure of the facts, because, after all, the lives of human beings and their sustenance are more important than the lives of birds, 98 per cent, of which are never seen by the eye of man, because they are in the swamps and forests of foreign countries.
9.0 P.M.
I second the Amendment that has been moved by the hon. Gentleman opposite, and I think that I can make my position clear in a very short space of time. The hon. Gentleman opposite has given great study to this question from its many points of view at home and abroad. My position with regard to this Bill is in n much narrower sphere. I happen to be a member of the Port of London Authority. This question came up year after year, and they asked me for several years past to oppose it when it was a Private Member's Bill and had no opportunity of making any progress. In August, last year, the Government gave their support to the Bill, and the present Postmaster-General brought it in. Now that it has become a Government Bill the Port of London Authority again draw my attention to it, and they are very much concerned about it from the point of view of the trade of the Port of London. Listening to the speech of the Postmaster-General, one's blood, of course, ran cold at all the horrors that he pictured about the cruelty to birds, and connecting ourselves with a vicious traffic, and supporting the vanity of women and the rapacity of men. None of us want to do any of those things. I can assure you I do not want to be a party to the cruelty to birds, and I do not want to be connected with all these terrible things which the Postmaster-General pointed out and yet at the same time I am bound under the present circumstances to oppose the Bill going forward to-night. My hon. Friend behind me (Sir A. Mark-ham) says that I want the trade for the Port of London. It would not be a crime if that were what I wanted. The trade of the Port of London is the life-blood of this great capital, and if it is going to be transferred to some other city and the objects of this Bill are not going to be attained, then I am not prepared to sacrifice the trade of the Port of London whilst not saving the life of a single bird. I do not pretend to have any expert knowledge, but I am told by traders that this Bill, as now introduced, will not do anything to mitigate the evils which the Postmaster-General paints in such lurid colours. If that is true, we ought to pause before we hurry this Bill through its Second Reading to-night. We ought to be quite sure that the objects of the Bill are going to be attained. I have a good many figures and statements with regard to the employment of persons engaged in the feather trade in London. The Postmaster-General refutes the statement that a large number of people are affected, but only a moment ago, when he interrupted the hon. Gentleman opposite who challenged his figures, he said that he had these figures only yesterday. A quarter of an hour ago he told us he was backing up this Bill with figures he himself had only yesterday. That is my point. That is where my anxiety comes in. I say that you ought not to force a Bill of this kind forward until the persons who can deal with these figures, those, who are engaged in the trade, have full and ample opportunity of presenting their case deliberately and after full consideration before the Members of Parliament. Sentiment in this matter carries people away. They say, "Do you like to see ladies wearing these aigrettes and feathers of very beautiful birds? Do you wish to pander to their vanity? "Of course, everybody says, "I do not." "Then," they say, "come down and vote for a Plumage Bill and stop it." My opinion is that it will not stop it, and, if my information is correct with regard to employment, the Postmaster-General's figures are inaccurate, and it is not fair to the trading community to transfer the trade from London to Paris merely because of some sentiment. We ought to be careful that the objects of the Bill are sure to be attained before we take employment away from the working people of London. We have been passing through a booming time in trade, and those of us who have worked for many years in the East End of London have not had the trouble during the last few winters with regard to unemployment that my hon. Friends below the Gangway had years ago. Is it supposed, however, that we are going every year to have the good times and the good winters that we have been having during the last few years? What will those hon. Gentlemen, who are going to troop into the Lobby at the bidding of the Whips to vote for a Bill which will transfer the trade of London to Paris, without saving the life of a bird, do when our poor people are walking the streets of London unemployed, because the Port has been deprived of a legitimate enterprise. It is a serious matter.
What right have we, with so few Members present, to deal with a large proposition of this kind without giving the business people full and ample opportunity of stating their case? They do not more as rapidly as Government Whips do, Government Whips who suddenly on the Thursday find that there will be a few hours to spare on Monday night because of the Government of Ireland Bill coming on earlier. They see a Plumage Bill before Parliament for years, and they expect ample and proper time to state their case. My point is that the traders have not had a proper time to state their case. If all the circumstances were as the Postmaster-General has stated here to-night, then I, for my part, should let the Bill pass into law; but if the circumstances are as they are represented to be by people who are just as human and kind-hearted as the Postmaster-General, and just as desirous not to be connected with vicious cruelties as he is, then this Bill ought not to pass in its present form and at the present time. I suggest the proper way to deal with this matter would be to wait until the committee, or rather conference of Continental nations, which the Postmaster-General hopes will meet shortly, has taken place. Then all the nations can act together and pass legislation simultaneously. In that way the fears of a great many traders could be met, and we should be doing things in a businesslike fashion instead of rushing the Bill through hurriedly, as we are asked to do, and seriously interfering with trade by legislation which would not be adopted by other countries. Clause 2 of the Bill provides that His Majesty may, by Order in Council, add the name of any bird to the Schedule, or remove the name of any bird therefrom. See what powers of the House we are proposing to give away! Members who are not here listening to the Debate will presently come in and vote for handing over the power of the House of Commons to the Privy Council with regard to the Schedule of this Bill.
It has been done for the last eight years.
It may have been going on for about twenty years. Of course, in the case of a large Government measure there are plenty of people to take the responsibility, but we have no one taking the responsibility for this small measure. We hear that the Government is supporting the Bill, but I do not imagine for one moment that either the Cabinet or the Government have ever considered it. I give the Cabinet credit for having much more important work to do than to concern itself with a Plumage Bill. No doubt they have given their consent to the Bill, but really there is no one responsible for it, and here is a proposal to give to the Privy Council power which this House itself only should exercise. We have heard a good deal about the ostrich trade. The Privy Council might take that bird under its protection and schedule it. What then would become of that trade? No doubt we shall be told by some speaker for the Government that they will not do anything of the kind. But why should we give them the power to do it? It is bad enough that this House should have the power, but at any rate, if we do anything that our Constituents disapprove they can bring us to book. But who can touch the Privy Council if they do such a thing? And what is to become of the feather trade of London if it is to be dealt with in this way? I think the whole proceeding a mistake. We are dealing with a very difficult problem. I admit the difficulty, and am prepared to be converted or to be persuaded to vote for the Bill, but I am not prepared to give my support to it without having the whole facts brought before the House of Commons.
This House should not act on grounds of sentiment merely. Because some Member is asked if he likes to see fine ladies wearing fine feathers, obtained by the wholesale destruction of beautiful birds, and he says he does not, that surely is no sufficient ground for supporting a Bill of this character. The House should have commercial evidence before it dealing with a matter of this kind. I am not in any way opposed to the spirit of human kindness to which expression was given by the Postmaster-General, and I believe every Member of this House entertains exactly the same feelings as the Postmaster-General with regard to the main question. But this is a business proposition which must be dealt with on business lines, and the Government are unwise in forcing this Bill through to-night. It is unfair to the business community, and I should be very glad if, even at the eleventh hour, the Government would express itself contented with the Debate that has taken place, and allow the Second Reading to stand over until the effect of the Debate on the trading community of the country is known. Traders will then be able to bring their views before the House, and in that way justice may be done. Justice will not be done if this House, by having the Government Whips put on at the forthcoming Division, passes a measure of this kind as the deliberate conviction on the House of Commons, and thereby does great injustice to a large number of poor people who, being scattered broadcast, have no one to fight their battles. Great harm, too, may be done to the business of London, and therefore hope that something will happen to prevent this Bill getting a Second Reading to-night.
As one who is ardently desirous of seeing this Bill carried into law I wish to intervene in this Debate for a few minutes. I was one of those who introduced the Bill last Session. It was obstructed night after night, and yet the hon. Gentleman and his Friends complain that they have had no time to consider the question! I am delighted that the Government are introducing this measure this evening. I believe it has the support not only of the vast majority of Members of this House—and the last time there was a Division upon it in a House of 374 Members, no fewer than 326 voted for the Bill— but that, throughout the length and breadth of the British Empire the desire for the passing of this Bill is greater than for the passage of any other Bill we have had an opportunity of considering. The hon. Member who last spoke has once again put forward the plea that this House should not be hurried on this matter, and he does that although we have been considering this question for the last eight years. He asks why the Government cannot wait until the conference of Continental nations has met to discuss this question. He says he is quite prepared to be reasonable so long as he is not hurried. That has been the position taken up by the opponents of this Bill from the very start. I believe that this House is tired of procrastinating with this question, and that there is a general desire to get to business before any further damage is done to one of the most beautiful friends of the human race throughout the length and breadth of the world. Various figures have been quoted as to the number of persons employed in this industry, the totals ranging from 1,000 to 3,000. If we believe that this trade is wrong, that it is bad in principle from start to finish, we ought, even if there were 300,000 engaged in it, not to let that fact weigh with us. If hon. Gentlemen opposite think that a cruel trade should be carried on because a certain number of people are employed in it, surely the same argument should apply to the slave trade or any other objectionable traffic in any part of the world.
I never heard such a string of fallacies from any single hon. Member as that which we have just had from the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Denniss). He started by proclaiming that not one single bird's life would be saved by the passage of this Bill, and he added it was perfectly obvious we could never deal with this matter until the nations of the world have come to the conclusion that the traffic should be stopped. But the nations are coming to that conclusion. We have export legislation in great Dominions of the British Empire, and we have Orders in the Crown Colonies. The United States of America have determined on legislation in this direction, and I venture to suggest that this country, which used to lead the nations of the world on questions of this nature, should not be last in this race, but should show that we are determined, following the United States of America, to set an example to other nations in this respect. How ridiculous is the claim that bird life will not be largely spared if this Bill is passed. This is one of the richest markets for the decoration of ladies' heads in the world, and it is perfectly obvious that if we immediately shut off the demand in this country the supply will be necessarily less, for there will be no profit in the trade for those engaged in it. The hon. Gentleman, with all his knowledge, told us that the trade was going to France. I ask him or anyone who sympathises with him, if it is true that the trade is going to France, why has every Member of this House received a petition from the French milliners only to-day or yesterday praying them not to let this Plumage Bill be passed in the House of Commons? I noticed a most interesting article in the "Deutsche Confection," of 12th October, 1913, after the United States had prohibited the import of plumage, which said:— of Commerce that they are only engaged in seasonable employment, and are engaged in other seasons in making trimmings of other descriptions. That argument will not stand any examination. The same applies to ostrich feathers, all the figures given include the ostrich feathers, which constitute the bulk of the trade coming into this country. I have met the greatest farmers in the British Empire, and discussed the subject with them. They are desirous, above all other things, that this Bill should be passed, because they believe it will be an enormous encouragement to the ostrich trade of South Africa. They ask us to emphatically dispute the statement some people have tried to put forward that the ostrich farmers are against the passage of this Bill. A more dishonest argument could not be brought forward. The ostrich farmers are engaged in a great legitimate industry in the British Empire. Women only wear the other articles because they are fashionable. If you once get rid of the traffic in these rare species of birds which are brought here by such cruel means, there being nothing more beautiful than ostrich feathers, women will take to them, and they will certainly be more becoming than the other articles.
My last point is the question whether or not there is any cruelty. The hon. Member for Oldham repeated an extraordinary statement which is credited to His Majesty's Minister at Caracas. What the Minister did say on 14th January, 1909, was:— many fallacies—that you certainly ought not to exclude parakeets, and that they were most desirable birds. I want to read a reply of the Bombay Chamber of Commerce on this particular subject. On 4th March, 1910, the Bombay Chamber of Commerce, after pointing out that prohibition was resorted to, not only to prevent beautiful birds being exterminated, but also to prevent useful birds being reduced in numbers, took separately the species in which the London feather dealers were interested, and showed how each was distinctly beneficial to the agriculturists. Lastly, they dealt with the parakeet.
My contention with regard to this Bill is, from the traders' point of view, that the competition in feminine attire is great enough without having a Bill of this kind forced upon them for purely sentimental reasons which, as I contend, will not save the birds themselves. If I believed all that had been said with regard to cruelty I should be one of the first to support the Bill. Whatever other views on this matter are placed before us, I contend that a good deal that has been said to-night cannot be borne out in fact. It is remarkable that the Government did not bring together the conference which has been talked about before bringing this Bill in. If you had all the representatives of the different countries here, and all the different things said with regard to cruelty, I am sure it would appeal to the members of that conference. The great trade associations of this country have been considering the Bill, when it was a private Bill, for some years past, and have not yet had time to go into it since it became a Government Bill, because they did not look upon it when it was a private Member's Bill as in the same category as it is in at present. The traders of the City of Landon knew there was great work to be done, but they never thought the Government would give an evening to discuss a Bill of such small importance as we consider this to be. It was only last Friday that the City of London really awoke to the fact that the Bill was going on, and so they have not organised their forces against it as they would if time had been given.
We have the council of the City of London Chamber of Commerce, the textile1 section of the London Chamber of Commerce, the Employers' Parliamentary Association, and the National Chamber of Trade—all these associations, numbering thousands in all parts of the country, have-unanimously passed resolutions against this Bill from the trade point of view. The Dublin Chamber of Commerce, the Manchester Home Trade Association, the Glasgow and West of Scotland Retail Association, the Birmingham District Retail Association, the Drapers' Chamber of Trade, the Wholesale Textile Association, and many others have passed resolutions dead against the Bill. I have never heard so much sentiment talked in the House of Commons as to-night. The whole question hinges on two species—the egret and the-parakeet. Why is so much sympathy given for the ostrich? There is very often as much cruelty inflicted on the ostrich as on some of these. The question hinges on these two species. All other species could be easily protected by arrangement. I have a document here with regard to the egret, and I find that over 80 per cent, of these egrets which are imported into this country come, not during the nesting season and when the eggs are laid, but during the time when the birds are able to find their own food and when the moulting season has gone. I have figures here which I should have verified if the matter had been postponed. In March the plumes begin to grow, and in April they grow larger. In May they are full grown, and the nesting season begins. In June the eggs are laid. In July some eggs are hatched, and there are some young birds one or two weeks old. The feathers begin to wear, and others are damaged and torn out by the bushes. During all those months the importations to this country in 1913 amounted to £13,160. In the other months, August, September, October, November, young birds from the eggs laid in June are able to feed themselves. There is a larger quantity of feathers in September when the nesting season is at hand. In these months the imports amounted to £62,474. The contention is that cruelty goes on from March to July. Our contention is with regard to the egret that these birds are brought together from August to November, according to the table that has been provided to me.
May I ask when these feathers are collected?
I cannot answer the question exactly. With regard to that, if it is two and a half months after, the amount that comes in October and November is sufficient to prove my argument that cruelty does not go on, as has been contended, during this time. The British Consul in New Guinea states that the paradise birds killed in 1912 numbered 9,837. So far as can be ascertained, the number and variety increases. There is no extermination going on. If only a small number of birds could be had, they would be no good to the trade. We want them in large quantities. Not only do the number of each variety increase, but we know that no cruelty attaches to their pursuit. I have quoted the statement of a man on the spot, and still we have other statements that great cruelty is being practised in regard to this matter. I have here another document by the Consul in Madagascar, which states that in 1910 the French Government decreed that the hunting of birds shall only be allowed during seven months of the year, from 1st April to 31st October, and that during the other five months the hunting and possession of certain birds shall be illegal. Notably, in New Guinea the destruction of birds at certain periods is entirely prohibited. The measures taken by the French Government include the issuing of shooting licences for hunting, an obligation on the hunters to return their guns, and the limitation of the importation of hunting weapons. These measures have been fairly efficient in preventing the destruction of birds each year from reaching such a large proportion as to cause the premature extermination of the Species. They have also had the effect of reducing to a minimum hunting during the close season, the close season corresponding with the period of reproduction. The document further states that in New Guinea there are places where the birds can take refuge and multiply without hindrance. All this leads any impartial person to suppose that there will be no extermination of the birds of paradise. I could give the House other extracts with regard to this matter from the standpoint that we claim the right to use the plumage of birds that are plentiful. This Bill prohibits the importation of these.
The trade does not use any birds that are rare, and it has accepted an arrangement that none of these shall appear in their imports. This Bill permits of their importation for museums and for scientific research. The trade have obtained the co-operation of French, German and Austrian merchants in a programme of protection. The French Government have refused to give their support to proposals similar to those in this Plumage Bill. The trade will assist with respect to such regulations as will ensure the safety of all species. This Bill will not save the life of a single bird, and until you get continental nations to assist in suppressing the destruction of birds, you will not save the birds. You will only get the trade shifted to Paris, Berlin, or Vienna. The flower makers are dead against the Bill. What has happened in America? The closing of the American market was supposed to benefit the ostrich trade, but the fact is that ostrich feathers have declined 30 per cent, in value since the passing of the Bill in the United States. Another point which I wish to mention is this: American trade papers are advertising huge imports of prohibited feathers which preceded the passing of the Bill. The same thing will happen here, and the trade might as well be given a chance, so that the effect would be immediate. The trade in Paris, Berlin and Vienna has not an alternative scheme at the present time, and if there was a Committee appointed to go into the matter a far better service would be rendered in that way than by the passing of this Bill in its present form. I think the trade are badly used by the introduction of this Bill at present. The objections of the trade ought to have received more consideration. You are penalising the trade of this country. You are driving the trade from London. It is bad enough to do that, but you are doing it without carrying out the object of the Bill. For these reasons I shall vote against the Bill.
The last three speakers who have spoken seem to have based their arguments upon the fact that the Bill will be futile if it is passed. I think that argument can be contradicted, and one of the strongest ways of contradicting it is to show that since the Bill was passed in the United States last year, feather sales have been reduced by one-third of the total Amount, and certain feathers have been withdrawn from sale altogether. I believe we shall find, too, that not only will money not be spent on feathers, but that the fashion will depart, and the trade in certain feathers will cease altogether. The Government has been attacked for not adopting international action, and it has been stated that nothing but international action will be effective in dealing with this question. In the first place, the Government have tried to get international action. Most of the European countries were invited to consider the question at a conference. Owing to France being unable to accept the invitation of the Government, the Bill for the time being had to be abandoned. May I point out that all those countries which did not attend the conference have in their own, dominions abroad taken steps to stop the destruction of these birds. France, although it would not come to the conference, stopped the traffic by taking action in Madagascar, and not a single aigrette has been destroyed there since then, and there has been no export of that bird. While Germany did not see eye to eye with us, it issued stringent regulations in German New Guinea with regard to this matter. Although we may not have been able to get international action, the result of the conference was that foreign Governments took action for themselves towards the suppression of the destruction of these birds.
The hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Denniss) in his speech against the Bill, claimed that collectors did far greater harm to bird life than those who killed for the trade. I would point out, in the first place, that this Bill deals with the question of collection, and if hon. Members think that the provisions are insufficient, perhaps they will take some means of making them more efficient. The Government have adopted in the Bill provisions to regulate the action of collectors. In reference to the argument as to the loss of employment, the figures given by the Postmaster-General prove most clearly that this trade is not a British industry. No doubt there is a British market and there are a good many dealers and brokers, but there is practically no industry. The total output of plumage in this country in the year 1912 amounted in value to a little over £500,000. In that were included 500,000 ostrich feathers, 120,000 aigrette plumes, and about 70,000 artificial flowers, which are carried out in the same workshops as the ornamental flowers. All those workshops only employ in or about 4,000 persons. If you take the proportion of them which are employed in the fancy feather trade of this country, you cannot make out more than 1,000 workers employed altogether in this manufacture which, from our point of view, is not worth considering as an industry at all.
If hon. Members think that it is legitimate to kill these birds they are quite entitled to vote against this Bill, but if they think that an industry is going to be destroyed by the passing of this Bill, then they have come to a wrong conclusion. A committee has been started which I believe is organised and financed by the dealers. It is called the Economic Society for the Preservation of Birds, and has got eminent names upon it. But I do not believe that it is the intention of that society in the slightest degree to stop this traffic in birds. By means of the Economic Committee they will form a society in London which will have affiliated societies in Berlin, Vienna, and Paris. They will pass resolutions in London whereby certain birds will not be exposed for sale in these great European centres. I cannot see how a resolution passed in London can ever be enforced, say, in Vienna. It seems to me that in reality there would be no protection whatever, and no recalcitrant trader who refuses to accept the suggestions of this Economic Committee will ever be compelled to follow them. The only means whereby it is possible to stop this trade is by legislative action as in other countries. The United States have set us an example. Our own Dominions and Crown Colonies have set us an example, too, and also India, which prevents the exportation of birds of plumage and those which are valuable to agriculture.
It is high time, after five years' of persistent agitation for this, by Members of this House and many others outside this House, to waste no more time in taking the legislative step which is essential to the prevention of this traffic increasing and existing in this country. I come to one further point, the argument put forward that these birds can be artificially raised and reared in domestic surroundings. That experiment has been tried both by the French in Tunis and by persons in America, and in both cases has absolutely failed. The argument of the Economic Committee, which is simply the trade under another name, is that the importation of this plumage should not be prevented provided that the birds are reared in domestic surroundings. In Tunis this attempt was made. During two years about 400 aigrette fowl were kept in captivity. At the end of that time the whole experiment was abandoned. The profit made by the plumage was practically nil, and the experiment did not pay. The other experiment was made in America, where, after eighteen years, about 500 aigrettes were raised and got together in a heronry in the United States. During all the years in which this experiment was in existence they were never able to collect a sufficient number of moulted plumes to enable them to make the industry pay. The picking up of moulted plumes is not what it is stated to be. What happens is that birds are shot and destroyed; and unless we take action rapidly in what is one of the greatest markets for feathers throughout the world these birds will be exterminated, and can never be restored.
I listened with great interest to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Second Reading of the Bill and who denounced in very strong language, with which I thoroughly agree, the destruction of these rare birds and the cruelty thereby entailed. I claim that I am just as keen as the right hon. Gentleman or any other supporter of this Bill in trying to prevent the destruction of those birds and stamping out the cruelty connected with it, but I have not heard so far any sound or serious argument of any kind which has induced me to believe that if this Bill were to become law tomorrow the life of a single bird would therefore be saved or a single act of cruelty would be thereby prevented. It seems to me that in the moving of a Bill of this kind the art of advertisement plays as large a part as it does in the sphere of commerce. When you wish to bring forward some patent remedy the first thing you do is to try to invent an attractive name. Then you advertise the horrible evils that this remedy is going to cure. Then you offer it to a confiding public. It seems to me that exactly the same thing is being done in connection with this Bill. The promoters have certainly succeeded in finding a very attractive name. They have advertised the horrors and evils which admittedly exist, and they are now offering to Parliament and the public this Bill as the cure for those evils.
It always seems to me to be a very curious thing how many people, both in this House and out of it, are easily captured by an attractive label. If you label a Bill an anti-gambling Bill or an anti-drink Bill or an anti-immoral Bill and go across to the other House and approach the right reverend Gentlemen who sit on the British Benches and tell them you want their support for such a Bill, it is ten to one they will always give it you, and what is more, they will be quite as good as their word; and if in the course of time it is shown that this anti-gambling Bill or anti-drink Bill is really going to increase the facilities for gambling or increase drunkenness itself, yet those right reverend bishops will be so much in love with the title of the Bill that they will certainly refuse to vote against it. I believe that some of those hon. Gentlemen and right hon. Gentlemen who will troop into this House at five minutes to eleven o'clock, in order to vote for this measure, will do so confidently, believing-that they are going to prevent the destruction of these birds and thereby cure the evil. I hope that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will give a little more attention to this Bill before they vote for it in that way. What is the position of the Government in regard to this measure? So far as I understand it, their position is this: I think they must admit that it will not prevent entirely the destruction of those birds, or the cruelty connected with it; but they are prepared to say, at any rate, that this Bill will be a good example to other countries, and show that we in this country do not countenance a trade of that kind. I should like, however, to ask the Government in what way this Bill is going to deal with those individuals who go across to other countries and purchase hats filled with the feathers of those birds, and then wear them when they come to this country? Are they prepared to have every boat watched, and are they prepared to see that no individual in this country does go about wearing hats with those feathers in them? If they are prepared to do that, then, at any rate, they are logical. If they are not prepared to do that, then this country will be in the position of the Pharisee: We shall get up every morning and thank God that ours is not as other nations, and that we are not going to allow this traffic. If every other means had already been tried to prevent this destruction of bird-life, if every means had been exhausted for doing so, then I think there might be something to be said for this Bill; but we know that is not the case.
10.0 P.M.
We know there is in existence at the present time a Committee for the economic preservation of bird-life. I know the right hon. Gentleman in his interesting speech spoke, I will not say with contempt, but rather lightly of that Committee. I still think that that Committee, in the short time of its existence, has already done more in the direction of the object we all desire, than this Bill, if it passes, is likely to do in fifty years. That Committee has already got into touch with and is co-operating with a number of traders in this country engaged in the feather trade. They are also in touch and are co-operating with all the traders in other countries where this trade is generally carried on, and the only countries where it is largely carried on are France, Germany, and Austria. The representatives of the trade in those countries, I am credibly given to understand, have already agreed to abide by the decision of the Committee in this country. The Committee for the Economic Preservation of Bird Life keeps a list on which certain birds are placed as being birds trading in the feathers of which is not to be allowed. Then the traders in those particular countries will abide by that decision, and will refuse to purchase the feathers of those particular birds. I believe in that way more good will be done than could possibly be achieved by a Bill of this kind. In conclusion I only wish to say that if His Majesty's Government really find that they have time to devote to the passing of a contentious, though not a very contentious Bill, of this kind, to prevent the destruction of bird life in foreign countries, and to prevent cruelty from taking place in foreign countries, then I suggest that they would be better employed if they turned their attention nearer home, where they would have no difficulty in finding plenty of cases of cruelty, not only to animal life but to human life. If they were to take up such Bills as the Affiliation Cases Bill, the Worn-Out Horses Bill, the Animals (Anæthetics) Bill, or any of the good Bills which they could find amongst those introduced by private Members, and which have no chance of becoming law unless taken up by the Government, certainly they would be doing more real good in this country, and more real good to the interests of both animal and human life, than if they occupy their time, such time as they have got, in passing a Bill which its best friends really can only say, in rather a self-righteous and unctuous manner, is a Bill which is going to set a good example to other countries.
It seems to me that the title of this Bill is wrong, and that instead of being called the Plumage Bill, it ought to be called the White Feather Bill. I would like to call the attention of the House to the fact that it is being pressed for legislation upon a very great variety of subjects, and, of course, people outside, especialy women, naturally think we will take those subjects in the order of their importance. This is the first night that any effective Government legislation has been moved. Who moved it? The right hon. Gentleman, who declared that women have not shown that earnestness in their suffrage cause which was displayed when Nottingham Castle and other places were burnt down. When you have these difficulties connected with female suffrage and are so unable to find time for that subject it is a matter of ill-omen that the Postmaster-General and the Secretary for the Colonies, who have been most strenuous in their opposition to the claims of women, should insist in the Cabinet that the first subject to be dealt with in the legislation of the present Session should be a Bill for dealing with the ornaments which women wear, while women themselves are being imprisoned and forcibly fed because they are unable to get the suffrage which they have been claiming so long. Therefore, the undoubtedly urgent way in which this Bill is pressed forward, the fact that the Government have had to surrender to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, and the fact that you are attacking articles of female adornment, are all circumstances which will gravely intensify the women's movement and make women more determined than ever they were before to demand that for which you have declared you have no time to afford, though you have plenty of time to afford for the discussion of matters which do not immediately concern this country. We have heard of the wrongs that have been done to these birds in Papua, in Venezuela, in New Guinea, Nicaragua, and other places, and one would almost imagine they were parishes in the Home counties. Here we are melting for the miseries of the birds in those districts. I cannot help being reminded of the words:
I myself am strongly opposed to pigeon flying. I think it is a terrible sport. But I saw from the pictures in the newspapers, and that the Chief Liberal Whip was present with the hon. Member for Ponte-fract (Mr. Booth) just before lie went to Ireland, and that the place they selected for making an exhibition of this cruel sport was no less a place than Old Palace Yard with the Speaker of this House presiding. Fancy the agony of those poor birds being brought down in the pockets of the Chief Liberal Whip, and not one word of protest from the humanitarians upon the Treasury Bench. Pigeon flying of all kinds is much to be deprecated, and yet it is the people who are prepared to treat pigeons in this way who talk of the destruction which pheasants cause. What about pheasants? Why are the farmers of England encouraged right, left, and centre, to devote their mangel-wurzels to pheasants. The new Secretary to the Treasury comes down and suggests that while it is a cruel thing to destroy a bird of Paradise, it is a glorious and righteous act to destroy pheasants, in the language of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Where is the consistency of all this? I think there is something to be said for some restriction with regard to this bird life. I think you should treat it as you have treated the seal. My view is that the seal was being subjected to great and unnecessary destruction. What did you do. You entered into a convention with the United States, and with other countries for the protection of the seal, and this House has year in, year out, passed after careful examination measures for seal protection.
What place did this Bill occupy last year in Government legislation? It was only made a Government Bill on the second or third day before the Session terminated, and what has happened in the scale of either justice or injustice to induce you to say that a Bill which you so treated last year should upon this occasion occupy first place amongst all the measures of the year? I notice that this Bill was down last year in the name of Sir Sydney Buxton. We all welcome the promotion and distinction which he has received. Is it because ordinarily a gentleman like him would have got a peerage that you are giving him this Bill, which, I think, is a poor reward for his long services? There is no other explanation for the way in which this Bill is being pushed forward except it is regarded as a sort of graceful legacy from Sir Sydney to the Members of this House. We have been pressing in Ireland for legislation for the prevention of injury to what is far more important than birds, namely, herds of cattle, and here you are bringing in this protectionist Bill when we ask for some measure to prevent disease being spread amongst our herds, and thousands upon thousands of pounds expended, because these cows have been killed in order to prevent further infection. You will not stop the importation of hay or straw, which is only a comparatively small part of the trade in these countries, for the protection of Ireland, but now, in the name of humanity, the bird of Paradise must not be allowed to be killed? I cannot help thinking as to the way in which these Bills are forced on the House by a little clique. We do not know how it is done. I always notice that the Colonial Secretary gets his way about everything. He is greatly to be praised and complimented for his own services to wild life and other matters of that kind. I am very glad indeed that he should endeavour to force this Bill forward. It is most remarkable that people outside should get it into their heads about the Prime Minister keeping his hand on the steering wheel all the time, and giving an even keel, so to speak, to all measures in accordance with their importance, while a particular Cabinet Minister has particular views and can suddenly get them. I remember three or four years ago the right hon. Gentleman had an estimate of £40,000 to build bridges and railways in Uganda, but he sprouted on to that 2½ millions, and called it a Supplementary Estimate. This is the same kind of thing. I do not want needlessly to oppose anything brought forward with a humanitarian object. But a large number of people employed in London have appealed to us for consideration. One gentleman concerned in this trade, whom I had never seen before in my life, said, "This Bill is death to me if it passes." I assured him that a Bill which the Government only made an August Bill in 1913 was not likely to be made a March hare in 1914, and I sent the poor man away contented and happy. The right hon. Gentleman introduced the Bill in a most able, eloquent and effective speech. If only he could address himself to the telephone girls in that language he would be the most popular man in Parliament.
Unemployment, I believe, is provided for in the Insurance Act. Female workers and male workers in our own country ought to have more consideration in this matter. The right hon. Gentleman said that we abolished slavery. So we did, but we paid £40,000,000 to do it. It is quite right that we should be humanitarian; but, if the right hon. Gentleman had been in the feather trade, would he have brought in this Bill? I hardly think so. By and by, when 2,000 people come marching along the Embankment, saying that their work is at an end because of this Bill, shall we put our hands in our pockets and say, "In the interests of humanitarianism, here is £5 apiece for you"? We shall do nothing of the kind. But, in the interests of humanitarianism, we propose to put an end to this trade forthwith. This is my suggestion: Provide for the compensation of these people; bring the measure gradually into operation; give the people a couple of years in which to turn round and address themselves to some other mode of getting a livelihood. Is not that fair? Look at all the other unhealthy and dangerous trades that exist. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about the support given by the "Westminster Gazette," the "Pall Mall Gazette," the "Spectator," and other papers. You can have the whole of them on very easy terms. I shall never forget that about ten years ago the great crying evil was "Death in the Lamp." Whenever a baby was burnt there was a large picture of Rockfeller, or somebody else described as an inhuman monster sending in oil under flash point and so on. The Bill came on for Second Reading and was defeated. From that day to this we have never heard another word about death in the lamp. All the solicitude of these great London newspapers, who are so careful of the public, was extinguished the moment it was seen that the House of Commons was not to be rushed. It is the same in regard to this matter.
There is a little family of humanitarians at the back of this Bill. There are too many humanitarians in the Cabinet. If there were a few less it would be better for Ireland. I therefore suggest that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee. It is a new Bill. The thought at the back of the Bill is new. Furthermore, it would appear that opinion is, increasing. The French nation, within an hour of your shores, absolutely refuses to adopt this Bill, and you cannot stop Englishwomen from going to Paris, and when there buying their hats there. You cannot adopt American methods of turning out things at Dover. [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes we can."] Then how many inspectors will you need? Will you send the telephone girls there! What is going to be the cost of this inspection? If you are going to watch the ports from one end of England to the other, and from one end of Ireland to another, let us have some estimate as to what the cost is going to be. Therefore I respectfully suggest that this Bill ought to be referred to a Select Committee. The Government have taken off their Whips. Let them give pledges to the people that may be thrown out of work that they will compensate them either by means of the Insurance Act or otherwise—
Let me make one thing clear to the hon. and learned Gentleman. I said I should be quite willing to take off the Government Whips on the understanding that there is no Division taken to-night.
I certainly should insist upon there not being a Division tonight, because the country has not heard about this Bill. It is always a suspicious thing when a Bill is sprung on the House of Commons. [An HON. MEMBER: "Eight years."] It may have been before us eight years, but it has never before been considered as a Government Bill. Let the Bill be inquired into by a Select Committee, and if the Government really feel that this Bill is of more importance to them than Ulster, let them give some further time for its consideration, and let it be understood that, in the name of humanity, we will provide for workmen who may be thrown into the gutter by its operation.
Whenever the hon. Member for North-East Cork speaks of cruelty to man, or bird, or beast, the matter always veers round to Ireland. He spoke about the ladies and their attitude towards this Bill. Let me tell him that three of the principal supporters of Women Suffrage in my Constituency have sent me an urgent appeal to support this Bill, so that they are fully alive to all that there is in it. I only, however, wanted to intervene for a few minutes in regard to the market about which we have heard so much. I know something of this market. There are very few brokers in the market. There are six sales every year. These sales last for a fortnight. Of the articles of the sales, five-sixths, if not more, are ostrich feathers. I know men who have large interests in the markets and who breed ostriches for sale, and I emphatically state that there is no cruelty to the ostriches. As regards dealing in birds of Paradise, the number is very small. The hon. Member speaks of depriving people of trade. It is a small thing. So far as it is concerned with these particular birds the great bulk shown in the London market are ostrich feathers, and buyers from Vienna, Berlin, and Paris attend these sales, which last nearly a fortnight. I assure the hon. and learned Member that the loss that would be caused by the discontinuance of the trade in birds of Paradise would be very little, and all the ostrich feather dealers are quite in favour of this Bill. I asked several of them, and they make no objection so far as that is concerned. It is a mere bagatelle, not worth considering. When you speak of conferences, there is no hope from that source, and we do not want to wait. So far as I am concerned, I hate the idea of any bird being destroyed except for the food of man, and therefore I support this Bill. I feel quite sure that the fashion will immediately give away, and I am certain that the bulk of those people who wear them have no intimate knowledge of what is involved in bringing these feathers to the market. That being so, I feel quite sure, and I have intimate knowledge, that the bird of Paradise feathers forms a very small part of the business done. I do not believe that 500 men or women are employed in London in that particular branch. At any rate, taking the other argument, if this destruction goes on, these birds will be exterminated, and there will not be much for these people to do by and by. I ask the House to pass this Bill as one much needed in the interest of bird life.
If the passage of this Bill is such a small matter and affects so few birds, why all this opposition, and why so much comment from the hon. Member for North-East Cork to the hon. Member for North Hackney? It is true this Bill will have very little effect. I think it will be a dead letter. It is bound to be, because we cannot affect the slaughter of birds at the uttermost ends of the earth. I protest against the assumption in the interesting speech of the hon. Member for Pembroke that those who oppose this Bill have less humanity than those who support it. They may have more experience of the effect of this Bill in the jungles and forests from which the birds come. Long before this question became so prominent, and before it made any impression upon Members upon the Front Bench opposite, I brought the matter forward in the greatest of our Dependencies and sought to protect the birds in the only way they can be protected, and that is to prevent them from being killed in the breeding seasons. In India that could be carried out at least as well as by our county councils. Lord Curzon, always having the courage of his convictions, passed a reso- lution with the concurrence of his counsel, which always concurred with him, that no skins or plumage of birds should be exported from India. I have here the speech which his Lordship made before the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, in which he himself admits that his own administrative order was unsuccessful, and that it led to wholesale smuggling, as all such orders must. The real fact is I am afraid that nothing can prevent the slaughter of these birds, much as I deplore it. We have been told that if this Bill were passed people would abjure other plumes in favour of ostrich feathers. Who can guarantee that? What does it matter to the exporter in India and other places whether he labels his packages for London or Paris? To him London and Paris are two places as near as Westminster and Marylebone.
The whole effect of this Bill will be to transfer the trade to Paris. It may not be a large trade, but the hon. Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) was absolutely right in saying that when this, measure has been suddenly made a Government Bill an opportunity should be given to those whose bread-and-butter is affected of knowing what is proposed, in order that they may be able to organise and agitate against it. It really is a most unreasonable proceeding to try and rush this Bill through to-night. This country used to be described as free, but this is a most inappropriate term to apply to it now. The Bill lays down that no person shall import the plumage of any wild bird, and the only exception is the ostrich. If this were a Bill to forbid the importation of skins, and of the plumage of the egret, kingfisher and the humming bird, there would be some reason for supporting it. The Bill further provides that no person must be in possession or be concerned in selling the plumage of any wild bird. I have heard of the autocratic government of India and Russia, but in those countries the Governments would not dare to propose such a measure as this. The Front Bench opposite would not support this measure but for the fact that they know it will be a dead-letter, and they know that to support it would please influential people who have obtained their ear. I have the utmost respect for these people, but I believe they have in this matter been guided more by their hearts than by their heads, and I think the Front Bench should be guided rather by their heads than by their hearts. It will be observed in this Bill that His Majesty may by Order in Council— I presume that means the Home Secretary—add the name of any bird to the schedule or remove any bird. That is the Insurance Act all over again, because you have an official enabled really to make the law. An official can at any time under this Bill advise the entry of a bird in the schedule, and it makes that official a legislator to that extent. This is a wholly bad precedent, and I hope the House will resist this Bill upon public grounds. In the third Clause it is proposed that the burden of proof should be based, contrary to all previous principles, upon the person who is supposed to be guilty. I remember when a British industry in a British Possession, gold mining, desired to throw the burden of proof upon the person found in possession of the gold, there was an outcry, and it was said, "How monstrous you should desire to throw the burden of proof upon the person in possession! How contrary to British principles of justice!" Here we actually have the same thing proposed from the Front Bench in the Imperial Parliament. I should like to refer to the words of the only great British official who has hitherto dared to take any action in the direction which it is proposed to take in such comprehensive, drastic and tyrannical manner, by this Bill. I mean Lord Curzon. Lord Curzon, speaking to the society which has promoted this Bill, said:— will only despatch the parcels to Paris instead of to London, and that will be the whole effect of your legislation. I repeat that of British Possessions it is India that supplies the greater part of these plumage birds, and it is therefore very much to the point to refer to India, though I admit that it requires an apology since that country has become an annex of the Labour Party. It is said that there is a growing feeling in favour of this Bill in almost every European country, not excepting France, which will be stimulated by the example of Great Britain. That is the sort of stuff that is circulated by sentimental friends of this Bill, and it is absolutely contrary to the facts. All we know is that those who have been approached have absolutely refused to take similar action, and that unless they take similar action the passing of a Bill of this sort, though it affords a pleasant salve to the consciences of sentimental people, will have no effect whatever in saving bird life. I would do my utmost to do that if it were possible to do it by any such Bill as that before the House.
I do not disparage the efforts of those who promote this Bill. I believe they do a great deal of good. They do good in seeking to protect birds whose lives are dashed out against lighthouses. I do not dispute the excellence of their intentions in promoting this Bill. I believe they have the ear of the Government in this matter. But in this great commercial country the interests of any trade, even if only a small one, are entitled to consideration, and a special Committee, or some other machinery, should be set up to enable their views to receive full consideration before the matter is rushed through. The right hon. Gentleman is anxious to get a vote to-night, and he knows perfectly well that many Members who doubt the expediency, justice, and efficacy of this Bill will troop into the Lobby in support of it lest they be accused of not having in their hearts properly developed humanitarian organs. He realises that with the aid of the Government Whips he will have a majority for this Bill, because everybody will vote for it lest they be accused of not having proper humanity—a view which should induce any independent man to get up and' oppose the measure. I do not know, and I do not care, whether there are 500 or 50,000 persons engaged in this trade. Everyone is entitled to the consideration of the Imperial Parliament, and until it is thoroughly shown that this Bill is going to have the effect which is claimed for it, it is a monstrous thing it should be rushed through the House in the manner proposed. I also wish to call attention to the fact that this Bill as drafted places scientific collectors at the mercy of the Board of Trade. I do not think anyone likes to be placed at the mercy of that Board. I am sure a scientific collector would not be satisfied to be in that position, and I think collectors for museums and private collections should be exempt. Take the case of the private collection of Mr. Walter Rothschild. I believe the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill is willing to meet the desire of Mr. Rothschild, who is probably one of the greatest collectors in the world, and who could hardly be accused of inhumanity. I believe the objection will be met to that extent. But I hope some steps may be adopted such as those suggested by the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy), who, in his humorous and caustic manner, really touched the spot, and showed exactly what objections there are to be faced. He showed how this Bill was born in a spirit of humanitarianism which is likely to evaporate. I hope that this Bill will not be rushed through to-night and that the Government will remember there is something to be said on behalf of a trade which is not yet proved to be inhuman and is entitled to consideration before it is doomed to extinction.
The accusation has been levelled against the promoters of the Bill that they are rushing it through the House of Commons. It is impossible to take that argument seriously. For years the matter has been before the House of Commons. A Select Committee of the House of Lords has sat upon it, the expert evidence has been marshalled, and a Report has been published upon it. As to the grievance that the Government adopted the Bill last autumn, introduced it once last Session, and have introduced it again this Session, I should have thought that the most orthodox form of Government attitude is to wait until public opinion has grown around a particular measure and then to see that it becomes law. In this particular case I believe the opinion behind this Bill is so overwhelming that it is comparable to the public opinion behind no other measure. The hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) said that there, are other forms of cruelty. I think he is wrong about ostriches. I am credibly informed that the process of taking feathers from the ostrich is no more painful than is the cutting of his hair to him.
Has an ostrich said so?
Neither has the hon. and learned Member ever so described the process in his case, although it is the same. It is not a question of pulling out, the feathers are cut. In the case of egrets there can be no doubt. The question of cruelty is not a question of opinion; it is a question of fact. I have not the slightest doubt in the world that the trade would like to get these plumes when the young birds and the eggs are not in jeopardy therefrom. But they cannot do it, for the reason that the plumes do not exist. I have copied out from the standard work on American ornithology— Audubon's "Birds of America," Vol. VI., page 133—this extract:—
"The train of this egret "—
That is the great American white egret—
"like that of other species, makes its appearance a few weeks previous to the lone season, continues to grow and increase in beauty, untilincubation has commenced, after which period it deteriorates and at length disappears about the time when the young birds leave the nest. when, were it not for the difference in size, it would be difficult to distinguish them from their parents, should yon. however, closely examine the upper plumage of an old bird of either sex, for both possess the train, you will discover that its feathers still exist, although shortened and deprived of most of their filaments."
I do not deny that some moulted feathers are picked up. What I maintain, and what, is undeniable, is that these moulted feathers, compared with the others, are practically valueless, practically unsale-able, and form but a small percentage of the feathers sold. The feathers have to be taken from nesting birds—they cannot be got at other times—and this leads to the brutal destruction, of their young. They are pulled from the shot birds. The only other point I desire to deal with is the assertion that if we pass this Bill the trade will be driven abroad. It is a little curious that the French trade should have taken the trouble to draw up, print and circulate, and send to every Member of this House a request that we should not, in the cause of international amity, pass a Bill which might affect it. The fact is that the French have refused to come into our international convention, because of the size of the French trade. As soon as you destroy the demand for the feathers in this country, following the lead of America, as soon as you get every country in Europe, except Greece, Denmark, France, free to join, then the trade of the French people will diminish so much that it will be difficult or impossible for them to resist coming, into line with the generality of civilisation. The hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork asks is it open to somebody who buys a hat or feather in France to bring it into this country. As the Bill is now drafted that is an illegal process.
No.
The hon. Member is thinking of last year's Bill. If he looks at this Bill he will find that is an illegal process.
If it is for personal use it can be brought into the country under the Bill.
I can assure the hon. Member that he is wrong. He is looking at last year's Bill: "A person shall not have in his possession or be concerned in selling." I want to deal with the Economic Committee for the Preservation of Birds. I have taken some pains to study the matter, and that Committee is not really worth considering. It does not contain the name of a single ornithologist. Most of the distinguished scientists who are members of it are experts on fish, or protozoa, or the coloration of shrimps, and of invertebrates generally. The only ornithologist on the Committee is Mr. Lutley Sclater, who was put on by the British Ornithologists' Union, and held a watching brief, and as soon as the British Ornithologists' Union discovered what use had been made of his name they called upon him to withdraw from the Committee, which he has done. Professor Cossar Ewart also has withdrawn his name from the Committee, and as soon those other distinguished scientists, who are not ornithologists, know what use is being made of their names to oppose the Bill, they will, I believe and hope, one and all, withdraw their names, as several of them have done. What has the Committee done? Last year at one sale there were 159,000 kingfisher skins sold in London, and there were 78,000 egrets sold. Has this Economic Committee dealt with that? No; because they knew they could never enforce anything so unwelcome on the trade which they allege they have behind them. They have protected the lyre bird, every skin of which which comes to the London market is illegally come by, and this is true, too, of the bower bird and the rifle bird. The chatterer comes from South America, and is very rare. The rifle bird and the bower bird are both protected in Australia. The flamingo is hardly used in the trade at all, nor is the spoonbill, and the only other bird which they have protected is the cow egret from India and Egypt, which is protected in both those countries, and is also illegally come by, and which is the only egret they have put upon the list, because they thought, in deference to public opinion, they must put an egret on. Cow egret plumes are practically worthless, while the whole of the terrible trade in kingfishers and herons is going on unchecked after eighteen months' activity on the part of the Committee. It may be that future generations will inhabit, owing to the march of civilisation, a birdless world—a world "which is poorer than it is at present in this respect—but it is out of harmony with our history, with the number of errands of mercy that we have undertaken, that we should continue to allow the citizens of this country to have any further part in this cruel holocaust.
I only rise to make two very short points. I strongly support this Bill, but I think we must regard the interests of the people who are working in the feather trade. After all, we have allowed this traffic to grow up. No one can go out into the streets without seeing feathers on the heads of three women out of four, all of which would be prohibited as soon as this Bill is passed. I venture to think that there is hardly a person in this House who could lay his hand on his heart and say that he had not seen these prohibited feathers on the head of his wife or daughter. There may be only 500 workers engaged in the trade, but when we lay down a new standard of moralty, and say that a traffic is illegal which before was perfectly legal, the public should compensate these workers. It is through no fault of their own that the trade becomes illegal. Let the House mark this. They have acquired a special aptitude in this trade which would not serve in any other trade, and when the Government consider this matter, I am convinced that they will see that justice is done to the workers in the trade. Unless this is done, I reserve to myself the right to oppose the Bill on the Third Reading. It is true, as has been said by the Postmaster-General and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, that we should do nothing until we have international agreement. We are not the only market, and until we have Vienna, Rome, Berlin, and South America into one international agreement, we shall ' not put down this trade. I know something about international agreements. One thing which I know about them very well is that they are very slow to get. You have not called your Conference yet. Your Conference is only the first step. I do not suppose you will agree at the first Conference. You will want a series of Conferences, and, after you have agreement, you have legislation to get through in the special countries. It will take you years to do it, and I do urge the Government to start without a moment's delay the getting of international agreement, for without that I am certain your Act will fail.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The House divided: Ayes, 284; Noes, 27.
Division No. 41.] AYES. [10.59 p.m. Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Barrie, H. T. Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Acland, Francis Dyke Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Chancellor, Henry George Adamson, William Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Chapple, Dr. William Allen Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Clancy, John Joseph Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Ainsworth, John Stirling Black, Arthur W. Clive, Captain Percy Archer Alden, Percy Boland, John Pius Clough, William Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Brady, Patrick Joseph Clyde, James Avon Armitage, Robert Bryce, John Annan Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Arnold, Sydney Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. Cotton, William Francis Astor, Waldorf Burn, Colonel C. R. Courthope, George Loyd Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Butcher, John George Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Baldwin, Stanley Byles, Sir William Pollard Croft, Henry Page Banbury, Sir Frederick George Campion, W. R. Crooks, William Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Carr-Gomm, H. W. Cullinan, John Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Cator, John Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Cawley, Harold T. (Lanes., Hey wood) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Barnes, George N. Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin), Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Dawes, James Arthur Kilbride, Denis Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Delany, William Kyffin-Taylor, G, Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Rendall, Atheistan Devlin, Joseph Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Lardner, James C. R. Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Dillon, John Larmor, Sir J. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Doris, William Levy, Sir Maurice Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Duffy, William J. Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Lewisham, Viscount Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Robinson, Sidney Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Essex, Sir Richard Walter Lundon, Thomas Roche, Augustine (Louth) Falconer, James Lyell, Charles Henry Roe, Sir Thomas Farrell, James Patrick Lynch, Arthur Alfred Rothschild, Lionel de Fell, Arthur Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. Rowlands, James Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Rowntree, Arnold Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson McGhee, Richard Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Ffrench, Peter Macmaster, Donald Rutherford, Watson (L'pool. W. Derby) Field, William MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Macpherson, James Ian Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Fitzgibbon, John MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sanders, Robert Arthur Flavin, Michael Joseph M'Callum, Sir John M. Sanderson, Lancelot Gelder, Sir W. A. McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Scanlan, Thomas Gill, Alfred Henry M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lines., Spalding) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Gilmour, Captain John M'Micking, Major Gilbert Sheehy, David Gladstone, W. G. C. Malcolm, Ian Sherwell, Arthur James Glanville, Harold James Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook Goldsmith, Frank Mason, David M. (Coventry) Smith, Albert (Lanes, Clitheroe) Goldstone, Frank Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Grant, J. A. Millar, James Duncan Spear, Sir John Ward Gretton, John Molloy, Michael Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Molteno, Percy Alport Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Money, L. G. Chiozza Talbot, Lord Edmund Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Montagu, Hon. E. S. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Hackett, John Morgan, George Hay Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton) Morrell, Philip Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Touche, George Alexander Hancock, John George Morison, Hector Toulmin, Sir George Harcourt, Rt. Hon Lewis (Rossendale) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Valentia, Viscount Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Muldoon, John Verney, Sir Harry Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Walker, Colonel William Hall Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Murphy, Martin J. Walton, Sir Joseph Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Neilson, Francis Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Nolan, Joseph Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Hazleton, Richard O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Helme, Sir Norval Watson O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Watson, Hon. W. Hemmerde, Edward George O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Webb, H. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Doherty, Philip Weigall, Capt. A. G. Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) O'Donnell, Thomas Weston, Colonel J. W. Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) O'Dowd, John White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport) Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Hibbert, Sir Henry F. O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) Higham, John Sharp Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William White, Patrick (Meath, North) Hills, John Waller O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Whitehouse, John Howard Hoare, Samuel John Gurney O'Shee, James John Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Sullivan, Timothy Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) Hogge, James Myles Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Parker, James (Halifax) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Holmes, Daniel Turner Parry, Thomas H. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) Hope, John Deans (Haddington) Peto, Basil Edward Wills, Sir Gilbert Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) Pointer, Joseph Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Pollock, Ernest Murray Wing, Thomas Edward Ingleby, Holcombe Pratt, J. W. Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire) Pretyman, Ernest George Yate, Colonel C. E. John, Edward Thomas Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Yeo, Alfred William Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Young, William (Perth, East) Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Pringle, William M. R. Younger, Sir George Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Radford, G. H. Yoxall, Sir James Henry Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Raffan, Peter Wilson Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Ratcliff, R. F. Jowett, Frederick William Rawson, Colonel R. H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Joyce, Michael Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Reddy, Michael
NOES. Baird, John Lawrence Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Doughty, Sir George Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Esslemont, George Birnie Bird, Alfred Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) Gibbs, G. A. Bridgeman, William Clive Denniss, E. R. B. Greene, Walter Raymond Hambro, Angus Valdemar Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Terrell, George (Wilts. N.W.) Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) Hume-Williams, William Ellis Thynne, Lord Alexander Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.) Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. Watt, Henry A. Henry, Sir Charles Newton, Harry Kottingham Hodge, John Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. Hope, Harry (Bute) Roes, Sir J. D. Booth and Mr. Hinds.
Question put accordingly, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 297; Noes, 15.
Division No. 42.] AYES. [11.9 p.m. Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Edwards. John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Acland, Francis Dyke Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Jowett, Frederick William Adamson, William Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Joyce, Michael Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Essex, Sir Richard Walter Kennedy, Vincent Paul Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Falconer, James Kilbride, Denis Ainsworth, John Stirling Farrell, James Patrick Kyffin-Taylor, G. Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Fell, Arthur Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Armitage, Robert Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Arnold, Sydney Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Lardner, James C. R. Astor, Waldorf Ffrench, Peter Larmor, Sir J. Baird, John Lawrence Field, William Levy, Sir Maurice Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Fitzgibbon, John Lewisham, Viscount Baldwin, Stanley Flavin, Michael Joseph Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R. Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gelder, Sir W. A. Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Gibbs, George Abraham Lundon, Thomas Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Gill, Alfred Henry Lyell, Charles Henry Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Gilmour, Captain John Lynch, A. A. Barnes, George N. Gladstone, W. G. C. Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. Barrie, H. T. Glanville, Harold James Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.) Goldsmith, Frank McGhee, Richard Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Goldstone, Frank Macmaster, Donald Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Grant, J. A. Macpherson, James Ian Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Gretton, John MacVeagh, Jeremiah Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) M'Callum, Sir John M. Bird, Alfred Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Black, Arthur W. Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding) Boland, John Pius Gulland, John William M'Micking, Major Gilbert Brady, Patrick Joseph Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Malcolm, Ian Bridgeman, William Clive Hackett, John Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Bryce, John Annan Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton) Mason, David M. (Coventry) Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Burn, Colonel C. R. Hancock, John George Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) Butcher, John George Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Millar, James Duncan Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Molloy, Michael Byles, Sir William Pollard Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Molteno, Percy Alport Campion, W. R. Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Carr-Gomm, H. W. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Money, L. G. Chiozza Cator, John Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Montagu, Hon. E. S. Cave, George Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Morgan, George Hay Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) Hazleton, Richard Morrell, Philip Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Helme, Sir Norval Watson Morrison-Beli, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Hemmerde, Edward George Morison, Hector Chancellor, Henry George Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Chapple, Dr. William Allen Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) Muldoon, John Clancy, John Joseph Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Murphy, Martin J. Clive, Captain Percy Archer Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Clough, William Higham, John Sharp Neilson, Francis Clyde, James Avon Hills. John Waller Newton, Harry Kottingham Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Hoare, Samuel John Gurney Nolan, Joseph Cotton, William Francis Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Courthope, George Loyd Hogge, James Myles O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Holmes, Daniel Turner O'Doherty, Philip Crooks, William Hope, John Deans (Haddington) O'Donnell, Thomas Cuilinan, John Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) O' Dowd, John Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) O' Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O' Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hume-Williams, William Ellis Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Dawes, James Arthur Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Delany, William Illingworth, Percy H. O'Shee, James John Denman, Hon. R. D. Ingleby, Holcombe O'Sullivan, Timothy Devlin, Joseph Jardine, Sir John (Roxburgh) Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. John, Edward Thomas Parker, James (Halifax) Dillon, John Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Parry, Thomas H. Doris, William Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Peto, Basil Edward Doughty, Sir George Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Duffy, William J. Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Pointer, Joseph Pollock, Ernest Murray Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Pratt, J. W. Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Pretyman, Ernest George Sanders, Robert Arthur Watson, Hon. W. Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Sanderson, Lancelot Webb, H. Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Scanlan, Thomas Weigall, Captain A. G. Pringle, William M. R. Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Weston, Colonel J. W. Radford, George Heynes Sheehy, David White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) Raffan, Peter Wilson Sherwell, Arthur James White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Ratcliff, R. F. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) Rawson, Colonel Richard H. Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) White, Patrick (Meath, North) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) Whitehouse, John Howard Reddy, Michael Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Spear, Sir John Ward Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Rendall, Atheistan Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Talbot, Lord Edmund Wills, Sir Gilbert Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Wing, Thomas Edward Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Robinson, Sidney Thynne, Lord Alexander Yate, Colonel C. E. Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Touche, George Alexander Yeo, Alfred William Roche, Augustine (Louth) Toulmin, Sir George Young, William (Perthshire, East) Roe, Sir Thomas Valentia, Viscount Younger, Sir George Rothschild, Lionel D. Verney, Sir Harry Yoxall, Sir James Henry Rowlands, James Walker, Colonel William Hall Rowntree, Arnold Walton, Sir Joseph TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Alden and Mr. Croft, Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.
NOES. Booth, Frederick Handel Hambro, Angus Valdemar Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) Rees, Sir J. D. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.) Watt, Henry A. Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) Hodge, John Esslemont, George Birnie Hope, Harry (Bute) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. Greene, Walter Raymond Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Denniss and Mr. Hinds.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be committed to a Select Committee."
Question put, "That the Bill be committed to a Select Committee."
The House divided: Ayes, 27; Noes, 255.
Division No. 43.] AYES. [11.20 p.m. Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Booth, Frederick Handel Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Bowerman, Charles W. Helme, Sir Norval Watson Pringle, William M. R. Clive, Captain Percy Archer Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) Rees, Sir J. D. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hinds, John Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) Hodge, John Thynne, Lord Alexander Esslemont, George Birnie Hogge, James Myles Watt, Henry A. Goldsmith, Frank Hope, Harry (Bute) Grant, James Augustus Malcolm, Ian TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Gretton, John Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) T. M. Healy and Mr. Denniss,
NOES. Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Barrie, H. T. Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Acland, Francis Dyke Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Chancellor, Henry George Adamson, William Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Chapple, Dr. William Allen Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Clancy, John Joseph Ainsworth, John Stirling Bird, Alfred Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Alden, Percy Black, Arthur W. Clough, William Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Boland, John Pius Clyde, J. Avon Armitage, Robert Brady, Patrick Joseph Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Arnold, Sydney Bridgeman, William Clive Cotton, William Francis Astor, Waldorf Bryce, J. Annan Courthope, George Loyd Baird, John Lawrence Burn, Colonel C. R. Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Butcher, John George Craig, Herbert James (Tynemouth) Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Croft, H. P. Baldwin, Stanley Byles, Sir William Pollard Crooks, William Banbury, Sir Frederick George Campion, W. R. Cullinan, John Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Carr-Gomm, H. W. Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Cator, John Davies, Ellis William Eifion Barlow. Montague (Salford, South) Cawley, Harold T. Lanes., Heywood) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Barnes, George N. Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Dawes, James Arthur Delany, William Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Lardner, James C. R. Rendall, Athelstan Devlin, Joseph Larmor, Sir J. Ricnardson, Albion (Peckham) Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Levy, Sir Maurice Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Dillon, John Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Doris, William Lewisham, Viscount Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Doughty, Sir George Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lieut.-Colonel A. R. Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Duffy, William J. Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Lurdon, Thomas Robinson, Sidney Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Lyell, Charles Henry Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Lynch, Arthur Alfred Roche, Augustine (Louth) Essex, Sir Richard Walter Lytterton, Hon. J. C. Roe, Sir Thomas Falconer, James Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Rothschild, Lionel de Farrell, James Patrick McGhee, Richard Rowlands, James Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Macmaster, Donald Rowntree, Arnold Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Ffrench, Peter Macpherson, James Ian Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Field, William MacVeagh, Jeremiah Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward M'Callum, Sir John M. Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Fitzgibbon, John McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Sanders, Robert Arthur Flavin, Michael Joseph M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) Scanlan, Thomas Gelder, Sir W. A. M'Micking, Major Gilbert Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Gibbs, George Abraham Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Sherwell, Arthur James Gill, A. H. Mason, David M. (Coventry) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook Gladstone, W. G. C. Mason, James F. (Windsor) Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) Glanvilie, Harold James Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) Goldstone, Frank Millar, James Duncan Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Molloy, Michael Spear, Sir John Ward Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) Molteno, Percy Alport Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Guest, Hon Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Montagu, Hon. E. S. Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Hackett, John Morgan, George Hay Talbot, Lord Edmund Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton) Morrell, Philip Taylor, Theodore C. Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) Hancock, John George Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Muldoon, John Touche, George Alexander Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Toulmin, Sir George Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Murphy, Martin J. Verney, Sir Harry Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Walker, Colonel William Hall Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Neilson, Francis Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Newton, Harry Kottingham Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. Hazleton, Richard Nolan, Joseph Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Hemmerde, Edward George O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O' Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Watson, Hon. W. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) O' Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Webb, H. Hibbert, Sir Henry F. O' Doherty, Philip White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport) Higham, John Sharp O'Donnell, Thomas White, J. Dundas (Glasgow. Tradeston) Hills, John Waller O' Dowd, John White. Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) Hoare, S. J. G. O' Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) White, Patrick (Meath, North) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) Holmes, Daniel Turner O'Shee, James John Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Hope, John Deans (Haddington) O'Sullivan, Timothy Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) Parker, James (Halifax) Wills, Sir Gilbert Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Parry, Thomas H. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. Peto, Basil Edward Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading) Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Wing, Thomas Edward John, Edward Thomas Pointer, Joseph Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Pollock, Ernest Murray Yate, Colonel C. E. Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Pratt, J. W. Yeo, Alfred William Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Young, William (Perthshire, East) Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Radford, George Heynes Younger, Sir George Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Raffan, Peter Wilson Yoxall, Sir James Henry Joyce, Michael Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Kennedy, Vincent Paul Reddy, Michael TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. Kyffin-Taylor, G. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)
It being half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at half after Eleven o'clock.