House of Commons
Tuesday, March 10, 1914
Private Business
Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitioners for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the Second Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Great Western Railway Bill.
Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Bill.
Ordered, That the Bills be committed.
Northwich Urban District Council Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
Scottish Insurance Companies (Superannuation Fund) Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 21) Bill (by Order),
Third Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 8) [Kingstown] Bill [ Lords ],
Mr. MULDOON had on the Order Paper the following Notice of Motion:—"That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to consider the advisability of inserting a Clause providing for the transfer of the undertaking of the Urban District Council of Kingstown within such period and on such terms and conditions as may be approved by the Board of Trade (by Order)."
Mr. Muldoon—
I desire the notice to be postponed for a fortnight.
Why, Mr. Speaker, is this notice "by Order."
It was called the other day, and objected to.
With great respect to you, Mr. Speaker, it is a different Motion.
Then it ought not to have appeared with the words "by Order."
Adjourned till Tuesday, 24th March.
Crystal Palace Bill
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table and to be printed.
East India (Bengal Legislative Council)
Copy presented of amended Rules for Questions and Discussions [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Education (Scotland)
Copy presented of Statement showing (1) an estimate of the sums receivable by the Education (Scotland) Fund for the year 1913–14, of the expenditure therefrom under Section 16 (1) ( a-f ) of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, and of the balance available for allocation under Section 16 (2) of that Act; (2) the allocation of such balance in accordance with the terms of the Department's Minute of 28th June, 1912 [by Command] to lie upon the Table.
Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907
Copies presented of Orders numbered D. I. P. 82, dated 27th February, 1914, and 83 and 84, dated 3rd March, 1914, declaring certain areas described in the Schedules thereto to be infected with Wart disease of potatoes and to be infected areas for the purpose of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Order by the Secretary for Scotland, dated 16th January, 1914, affecting certain Shops in the burghs of Buckhaven, Methil, and Innerleven [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Emigration
Copy presented of Report on the Emigrants Information Office for the year ended 31st December, 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company (Patents)
Order [ 5th March ], That the Return relative to Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company (Patents) do lie upon the Table, and be printed, read, and discharged.
Return withdrawn.—[ Mr. Hobhouse. ]
Local Contributions (Ireland)
Return ordered, "of all moneys contributed out of the rates by the county council and other local bodies in each county in Ireland during the financial year 1913–14 for the purposes of schemes under the Agriculture and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Act, 1899."—[ Mr. Ginncll. ]
Civil Servants
Return ordered, "of the number of persons in the established Civil Service of the State on the 31st day of March, 1914, distinguishing those in each department of the Civil Service and Revenue Departments, respectively (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 210, of Session 1911)."—[ Lord Charles Beresford. ]
Return ordered, "of the total amount provided in the Estimates for the Civil Service and Revenue Departments, respectively, for the year 1913–14, in respect of salaries and allowances of persons in the established Civil Service of the State."—[ Lord Charles Beresford. ]
Selection (Standing Committees)
Sir Daniel Goddard reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Mr. Palmer; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the Grey Seals (Protection) Bill): Mr. Robert Harcourt.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee; That they had dis- charged the following Members from Stannding Committee A (in respect of the Parliamentary Elections (Polling Day) Bill): Mr. Attorney-General and Mr. Runciman; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the said Bill): Mr. Herbert Samuel and Sir John Barran.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee A the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Parliamentary Elections (Polling Day) Bill): Sir Frederick Banbury, Mr. Charles Bathurst, Mr. Harris, Mr. Goldman, Captain Jessel, Mr. Leach, Mr. Muldoon, Mr. O'Shee, Mr. Parker, Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. Walter Roch, Mr. Rowlands, Sir Harry Samuel, Sir Harry Verney, and Mr. Aneurin Williams.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee C: Mr. John Taylor and (in respect of the Elementary Education (Defective and Epileptic Children) Bill) Mr. Burns; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Jowett and (in respect of the said Bill) Mr. Joseph Pease.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee C the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Elementary Education (Defective and Epileptic Children) Bill): Sir William Anson, Mr. Arnold, Lord Robert Cecil, Mr. Herbert Craig, Mr. Ffrench, Mr. Rupert Guinness, Mr. Hills, Mr. Hoare, Mr. Edgar Jones, Sir Wilfrid Lawson, Sir Philip Magnus, Dr. O'Neill, Mr. George Thorne, Mr. Walsh, and Mr. Whitehouse.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Mexico (Death of Mr. Benton)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of all the circumstances in Mexico and especially the murder of Mr. Benton, he will request the Government of the United States of America to reconsider the expediency of recognising the Presidency of General Huerta as the only alternative to existing horrors?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the results of the non-recognition by the United States Government of the de facto government of General Huerta, he will suggest to the former Government that no greater degree of blood guiltiness attaches to one rather than to another Mexican politician, and that peaceful and orderly administration can only be attained by recognising General Huerta?
The Government of the United States are, of course, aware of all the circumstances in Mexico, but they have already made it clear that they do not themselves regard the recognition of the Presidency of General Huerta as the only alternative to the existing state of affairs, and are not prepared to receive such a request from other nations.
asked the Secretary of State for War if it is open to Great Britain to secure the reference to the Arbitration Tribunal of The Hague of the question of obtaining redress for the murder by General Villa, the Mexican revolutionary general, of Mr. Benton; or whether any questions which involve the application of the Monroe doctrine are excluded from consideration by that tribunal?
The answer to the first part of the question is technically and theoretically in the affirmative, but in practice there is at the present moment no satisfaction to Tae obtained by arbitration, and I am not prepared to admit that in this case arbitration will be the most fitting method of securing redress when there is an opportunity. As regards the last part of the question, I have never heard it suggested that there was anything in the policy of the United States adverse to the settlement by arbitration of disputes not involving the independence of Central or South American Republics.
Portuguese West Africa (Mr. Bowskill's Arrest)
asked whether arrangements have been made for the release of Mr. Bowskill?
A telegram was received last night from His Majesty's Consul at Loanda reporting that the Governor-General had just received a telegram from the Governor of the Congo in which he stated that he had arrived at San Salvador on the 24th of February, having been attacked three times on the way. On arrival he had found the head of the English Mission and three Catechist's prisoners. He had liberated the former immediately on parole pending inquiry. There were 600 refugees inside the fortress; the personnel of the English Mission alone had refused to enter. The insurgents had attacked the fortress on all sides on the 25th, as well as before the arrival of the Governor, but had been repulsed each time; on the second occasion with heavy loss. The Governor-General stated that he was very pleased to know that no British missionary had in any way suffered on account of the rebellion. The Acting British Consul at Boma, who, as stated in answer to a question yesterday, was prevented from going to San Salvador by the rebellion, has been instructed to proceed there as soon as he can safely do so, to see Mr. Bowskill, and to report fully on all the circumstances.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know at all the charge upon, which Mr. Bowskill was arrested?
No. I do not know the charge; that is what I want to find out. But I understand from this telegram that he is now liberated. I want to know all the circumstances—why he was arrested, the nature of the arrest, and so forth; we cannot be content until we know.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is very great anxiety on the part of the friends of this reverend gentleman at Nottingham and elsewhere as to his fate? Will he kindly intimate as early as possible any further information so as to relieve their anxiety?
Oh, yes; the Missionary Society themselves have got this information direct, and we shall certainly give all the information we can; and that is what I wish the House to understand from my answer to-day. According to, the latest information there is no anxiety at the present time about Mr. Bowskill personally. What we may have to demand in the way of reparation or compensation for what has taken place is a question we reserve; but we are not content.
Is there telegraphic communication between San Salvador and this country?
It would appear that the Governor-General of Loanda is in telegraphic communication with San Salvador.
asked whether His Majesty's Government propose publishing shortly a White Book on labour conditions. in Portuguese West Africa; and, if so, whether it is proposed to include the letter addressed by the Rev. J. S. Bowskill to His Majesty's Consul at Loanda, dated 23rd December last?
I hope that correspondence on the subject of contract labour in Portuguese West Africa will soon be laid before Parliament. I do not, however, propose to include correspondence received this year, as that would delay the publications, and any such correspondence can better be presented subsequently.
New Hebrides
asked whether, according to the 1906 Convention, by which the New Hebrides Condominium was established, the age and height at which minors could be contracted was to be immediately fixed; and, if so, whether a standard age or height has yet been fixed?
The New Hebrides Convention did not prescribe any age below which minors could not be engaged, but provided that "children shall only be engaged if they are of a certain minimum height, to be fixed by the Resident Commissioners jointly." No definite minimum height, however, appears to have been fixed, but in the rules subsequently adopted for labourers engaged by British subjects it is laid down that no "native under the age of sixteen, or who is obviously physically unfit for plantation labour, shall be recruited for labour." The French Resident Commissioner was instructed to apply the Convention rule on the subject in such a way "as to prevent children from being recruited before the age at which their strength is fully developed, so as to fit them for their work—in fact, generally speaking, before the age of fifteen."
Have the Colonial Office given instructions to the British representatives to take steps to get the conditions fixed so as to prevent children being recruited during the eight years?
The instructions to British subjects are perfectly clear; if the hon. Member wants any further information as to how the instructions apply, I shall be glad to give it.
asked whether natives in the New Hebrides against whom charges have been made are frequently arrested, detained, and treated as convicts pending trial, the sentences being often of shorter duration than the time already served; and whether many natives so detained have died before being brought to trial?
My attention has been drawn to the fact that certain natives of the New Hebrides were arrested and detained for several months pending trial by the Joint Naval Commission in December last, and that in some cases the sentences were of shorter duration than the periods of previous detention. I have seen a statement that some natives have died while awaiting trial. His Majesty's Government are considering what steps can be taken to prevent the repetition of such occurrences.
Kolhapur Royal Statues
asked the Undersecretary of State for India whether he can give the House any information regarding the blackening of the faces of the statues of the Royal Family at Kolhapur?
The Secretary of State is informed that the busts in question, which were guarded by a special police guard, were defaced with tar on the night of 14th February. The perpetrators of the offence have not yet been traced, but the case is being investigated by His Highness the Maharaja of Kolhapur, with the assistance of an officer lent by the Government of India.
British Army
Cavalry Regiments
asked the Secretary of State for War whether four additional regiments of Regular Cavalry are to be raised?
No, Sir
Frozen Meat Supply
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, after allowing for carriage to destination, delivery charges, agents' expenses, and other concessions in the contract, any saving has been accomplished by the War Department through supplying the large depots of the British Army with frozen beef under a bulk contract; whether this method is as satisfactory as the one previously practised; whether he is aware that, owing to the large quantities of frozen beef which have been drawn from Liverpool for this contract, the shortage and consequent increase in price has been very adversely felt by retailers depending upon this market for supplies; and whether it is his intention to continue to supply frozen beef under similar contracts in the future, and thereby assist the meat combine to manipulate prices on the important markets in a manner which was impossible when the Army supplies were drawn from a large number of contractors in various parts of the country?
After making allowance for all outgoings, the new system shows a considerable saving, and in other respects is more satisfactory. I have no information as to any disturbance of the Liverpool market. As the sources from which frozen meat is imported remain the same, the suggestion in the last part of the: question does not appear to be well founded.
Army Advertising
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the placing of advertisements with the newspapers in Connection with the recent advertising of the Army has been entrusted to Mr. Hedley Le Bas, or the firm to which he belongs, or to Messrs. R. S. White and Sons, who have the standing contract for War Office advertising; whether he is aware that the person or firm who places the War Office advertisements with the newspapers receives from the newspapers a commission of 10 per cent., or a similar sum, and that payment of commission by the newspapers is the usual method by which advertising agents gain a livelihood; and whether Mr. Hedley Le Bas, or the firm to which he belongs, has entered into any arrangement with Messrs. R. S. White and Sons to share such commission, or what were the arrangements for placing the advertisements made between the War Office, Messrs. R. S. White and Sons, and Mr. Hedley Le Bas, or the firm to which he belongs?
With regard to the first two parts of the question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the reply to his question put on the 4th of March. With regard to the last part, as I have already stated, no payment in any form whatever was made to Mr. Le Baa or the firm to which he belongs.
Has Mr. Le Bas received any money from the newspapers, not necessarily from the War Office in this connection?
No, Sir. I am glad to make it quite clear that these gentlemen, together with the editor of the "Spectator" and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mile End, gave me great assistance in this matter, and neither did they nor any member of their firms receive a single penny.
What did they do it for, then?
They were actuated by patriotic motives.
That is not understood in the city.
Northern Junction Railway
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the Army Council, or any official on its behalf, has to his knowledge and with his sanction stated that the construction of the Northern Junction Railway, the subject of the Bill now awaiting Second Reading, was a national necessity, and that the War Office would support it on that ground; and has he ever made such statement or any statement of a similar character?
I would refer the hon. Gentlemen to the answer I gave on the 3rd instant to a similar question put by the hon. Member for the Tottenham Division of Middlesex.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give a direct yes or no answer?
I do not think I can add anything to the answer I then gave. It seems to me to have been a very definite answer.
Territorial Force
asked the Secretary of State for War (1) whether promotion to the command of a battalion in the Territorial Force, providing the officer is fully qualified in accordance with the regulations, is by seniority or by selection; if the latter, upon what principle is it determined; (2) whether, in view of the difficulties in raising the Territorial Force to its proper strength, and particularly to supply the shortage of officers, he will take steps to prevent injustice to capable and meritorious officers caused by their being passed over for command solely by reason of questions of social status; and (3) whether there is any reason why an officer who is second in command to a Territorial Force battalion should be passed over for promotion to the command, providing he is fully qualified in accordance with the regulations, and who has been reported upon as zealous, hardworking, attentive to his duties, and nothing against him?
The promotion of an officer to command is decided solely on his military qualifications.
Enfield Small Arms Factory
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he will give the total number of actual employés at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield, as on 1st March?
The number is 1821.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that discharges of employés have been recently taking place at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield, where such employés were still within some years of reaching the age limit of sixty-five years, and were physically sound; and whether he will say what gratuity or pension can be claimed by a servant at the Royal Small Arms Factory on being dismissed in the circumstances above mentioned?
A few discharges have recently taken place. The men affected had been permitted to stay on beyond the age of sixty, at which age, and not at sixty-five, all men employed are liable for discharge. The amount of gratuity depends upon amount of service and rate of pay at time of discharge, and is not affected by the fact that a man has reached his age limit.
Questions
Agricultural Land Value
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government have yet decided to accept the order of Mr. Justice Scrutton confirming the award of Mr. D. Watney in the case of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue v. Hunter, that unexhausted manures and tillages are included in agricultural value; and, if so, whether they will amend the provisional valuations that have been sent out accordingly?
My right hon. Friend fears for the moment he can add nothing to the reply which he gave the hon. Member on Thursday last.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that great inconvenience is imposed by this delay, as these two judgments are of very great importance, and the Government has given: notice of appeal in the one and not in the other, and can he give a reply at an early date, and can he say when?
I hope very shortly. The matter is engaging the attention of the Treasury. It is a very important question, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman will recognise.
Will I put it down this day week?
I will communicate with the hon. Member to-morrow.
Will the hon. Gentleman answer at the end of Question Time? In the meantime he can have a consultation with the Law Officers in the Lobby.
Wick Harbour
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether correspondence has passed between the hon. Member for Wick Burghs, or the Lord Advocate, or the hon. Member for Dumfries Burghs, with regard to the Wick Harbour extension, and the Development Commissioners or Treasury; if so, upon what dates; upon what date did Mr. Cole cease to be the engineer to the Development Commissioners; how was it that he attended a meeting of the Wick Harbour Trust regarding Development Commission work in December if he was no longer in the latter service; and was it by the sanction of the Commissioners?
No official correspondence has passed between my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate and the Treasury or the Development Commission on the subject of the Wick Harbour. My right hon. Friend before he became Lord Advocate interested himself as the Member for the Wick Burghs in the project, and some semi-official correspondence passed between him and the Secretary of the Development Commission in 1912 and 1913. This correspondence ended with a letter written by the Lord Advocate on the 6th May last—six months before he joined the Government. The only letter written by the Lord Advocate on the subject since that date is one to myself three weeks ago enclosing for my information a complaint received by him from a contractor who had been employed on the harbour works. There has been no correspondence on the subject, either official or semi-official, between the hon. Member for Dumfries and either of the Departments named in the question. As regards the remaining parts of the question, I would refer the Noble Lord to the full explanation which I gave him last week, and to which I have nothing to add.
With regard to the latter part of the reply, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that one of the members of the Harbour Trust said it was not at the suggestion of those members that Mr. Cole came down, but it was the Development Commissioners sent him down on the 3rd September, and may I ask at whose orders Mr. Cole went down?
If a member of the Harbour Trust said that, the member of the Harbour Trust was wrong. Mr. Cole was not sent at the suggestion of the Development Commissioners.
Is the hon. Member aware that Mr. Georgeson, secretary, said the same thing; and was he not the Radical agent for Caithness and also for Wick Burghs?
The Noble Lord is repeating certain allegations fully dealt with in the answer. That answer was accurate in every detail, and I have nothing to add to it.
Gold (Government of India Reserves)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India what is the amount of gold (metallic) in the Government of India Reserves, in India, at the present time; does any of it belong to the Gold Standard Reserve, and, if so, how much; and is any of the gold in the form other than that of minted sovereigns and half-sovereigns?
The amount held in gold in the reserves in India at the end of February was £15,421,000, in addition to £610,000 in the Treasuries. The answer to the second and third parts of the question is in the negative.
Was there not a sum of £800,000 in the reserve some time last year?
There may have been at the end of last year, but there is none now.
National Insurance Act
Outworkers
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Mrs. C. R. Hoare, a laundress, of Highcliffe, Hants, who was an insured contributor in the Prudential Society from January till June, 1913, when her membership was cancelled on the ground that she was a married outworker, is entitled to a refund of the contributions paid by and for her for six months in error?
The person referred to was accepted as a member of the society under a misapprehension. It appeared on inquiry that she has not been employed within the meaning of the Act, and as she was married before the Act came into operation she is not entitled to be a voluntary contributor. She is not an outworker, as stated in the question. The question of a refund in respect of the contributions incorrectly paid will be considered as soon as it has been ascertained whether the society incurred any liabilities on account of her.
Excessive Sickness (Departmental Committee)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the evidence taken by the Departmental Committee on Excessive Sickness under the National Insurance Acts, which is already in type and extends to some thousands of questions, can be published for the information of approved societies and others who are interested in the subject and who may wish to offer rebutting evidence?
The publication of the evidence so far given before the Committee would create a misleading impression. I do not understand what the hon. Member intends to suggest as to the offering of rebutting evidence by approved societies and others. The Committee is not inquiring into allegations in respect of specific societies, but into the general question affecting the administration of sickness benefit.
Will the hon. Gentleman say whether the inquiry is confidential, or will the result be published with the evidence?
I cannot say until the evidence is completed what course will be pursued.
Tubercular Disease (Assistant Clerks)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will furnish a Return of the number of assistant clerks who have been granted prolonged sick leave on account of tubercular disease since the 15th July, 1912?
I hope that my hon. Friend will not press for this return, since its value would not be proportionate to the amount of time and labour involved in its preparation.
Medical Benefit
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commission, whether his attention has been drawn to the issue of a circular to the panel doctors in Bolton, advising them that, on account of the drug fund being overspent, they should not prescribe extract of malt and oil, petroleum emulsion, etc., except to tuberculous patients; whether the Government propose to take any steps to see that the rights of insured persons are not thereby imperilled and their medical needs ignored; and whether they agree with restrictions of this kind being placed on doctors with regard to the medicine that panel patients can have?
The hon. Member is misinformed. The circular contains no allusion to the condition of the drug fund, and has no reference to financial considerations. It merely expresses the general views of the Committee arrived at in the course of administration as to the interpretation to be placed, in their opinion, upon the provisions of the Act regarding the supply of medicines in connection with medical benefit. The rights of insured persons cannot, of course, be restricted by any such general announcement as that referred to.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Hull Insurance Committee have delivered their medical tickets by hand instead of sending them by post; what is the total amount spent in 69 delivering the medical tickets; what is the total number of insured persons in the-area of this insurance committee; and how many, owing to change of address, have not yet been traced?
My right hon. Friend is informed that the Hull Insurance Committee have arranged for the delivery of medical cards by persons specially engaged for the purpose, instead of sending them by post; but as the issue is still in progress, no complete information is available in reply to the rest of the question.
asked how many medical tickets have been sent out by the Rochdale Insurance Committee; how many have been returned through the Dead Letter Office; and what steps are being taken by the Committee to trace those insured persons who have changed their address without notifying this change?
The number of medical cards issued by the insurance committee referred to is about 38,700, of which about 2,800 were returned undelivered owing to changes of address or for other reasons. A considerable number of these have already been reissued to their owners, and insured persons have been informed in the local press and otherwise that they should apply for cards if they have not received them. The committee is not however, responsible for the issue of cards to insured persons who have removed outside their committee's area.
Unemployment Benefit
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that Mr. S. W. Ainsworth, residing at 121, Usher Road, Bow, who was working for Mr. Walter Gurr, builder and decorator, of 135, Brownlow Road, Willesden, was discharged in consequence of slackness of work, deposited on 26th January, 1914, his unemployment book, number 12/A 6538, with the manager of the Stepney Labour Exchange, who stated that the man was disqualified through a trade dispute; if he is aware that the contractor stated in a letter that he was discharged through slackness of work, and had nothing to do whatever with a trade dispute or lock-out, and that a copy of the employer's letter has been sent to the manager of the Stepney Labour Exchange; and whether, seeing that up till Thursday, 5th March, the man has been denied unemployment benefit, he intends taking any action in the matter?
I have made inquiries into this matter, and find that the claim of S. W. Ainsworth was received with the claims of other workmen discharged in consequence of the dispute in the building trade on the 26th January, and was disallowed under Section 87 (1) on the 28th of that month. The branch of his association appealed against this decision on the 14th February, and on the statement contained in the appeal the divisional officer reversed his decision and allowed the claim. I understand that the branch secretary was advised of this on the 5th March.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether several workmen, recently employed at Rosyth, have applied for unemployment benefit and have been refused it by the insurance officer on the ground that they have voluntarily left their employment without just cause, and that some of them on appeal have been able to show to the Court of Referees that the conditions of work at Rosyth, particularly in the matter of housing and messing, are so bad that they were justified in leaving; and, if so, whether he will take steps to inform other intending applicants for work there of the conditions there prevailing so that a similar state of affairs may in future be avoided?
I have not so far been able to trace any appeals of workmen recently employed at Rosyth as having been made at any Court of Referees in Scotland. If, however, the Noble Lord will supply me with particulars as to the claims to which he refers, giving the names of the workmen and the places and approximate dates at which they claimed, and the Court of Referees at which the cases are stated to have been heard, I will have further inquiries made.
London Insurance Committee
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Insurance Commissioners are prepared to require the London Insurance Committee to distribute the money now in their hands and available for medical services, so as to implement the understanding upon which the doctors joined the panel?
The distribution of the funds available to the London Insurance Committee among the doctors on their panel, in accordance with the Regulations and the doctors' agreements, is in the first instance, at any rate, a matter for the committee themselves with whom those agreements have been made; and, as I have already stated, this distribution is engaging their attention.
Is there no means of bringing the insurance committee to book for default?
I think, their attention, having been called to the matter, they will deal with the question.
Approved Societies, British Possessions
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether any steps have yet been taken to determine what societies in British Possessions are approved societies under Section 32 of the National Insurance Act, 1911, so that transference of members of approved societies in this country may be effected in the case of migrations of the members within the Empire?
No applications have been received for such approval as the hon. Member refers to. The Commissioners hope, however, at an early date to make an announcement with regard to the conditions upon which emigrating members may carry their transfer values to branches of approved societies in other countries.
Friendly Societies Schemes
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state how many schemes, under Section 72 of the National Insurance Act, 1911, submitted by registered friendly societies and branches, have now been confirmed; and what is the total amount of the funds of friendly societies and branches thereby set free, either to provide increased benefits or reduced contributions, or to redeem deficiencies existing in the valuations of these societies and branches?
The total number of schemes confirmed to date is 2,647, consisting of 2,161 schemes for continuing the contributions and benefits specified in the Rules, and 486 providing for a reduction of contributions and benefits. In the case of the latter reserves amounting to £240,934 have been applied in reduction of existing deficiencies or the grant of additional benefits.
How many societies have not yet had their schemes confirmed?
I cannot say without notice. I will find out.
Scottish Approved Societies (Meetings on Licensed Premises)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the wishes of Scottish approved societies were ascertained before the Regulations forbidding their meeting on licensed premises were issued; and whether, pending the decision as regards Regulations for the place of meeting of English approved societies, he will instruct the Scottish Insurance Commissioners not to enforce the provisions of Insurance Regulations (No. 2) (Scotland)?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative. The Regulations referred to were unanimously approved by the Scottish Advisory Committee, on which approved societies of all types are represented, and my right hon. Friend is not aware that any difficulty is arising from their operation.
Should not the Scottish approved societies have had the same chance of considering the Rules as the English societies?
Yes, Sir, and they are represented to the number of about thirty on the Advisory Committee. They raised no objection to the Rules.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Rules were adopted before they had an opportunity of understanding them?
No, Sir, the hon. and gallant Member is hopelessly wrong.
Were not the Rules made before the 15th July, 1912, before the Act was in operation? Were they not dated in June?
Yes, Sir, but there was such unanimity of opinion among the representatives of the approved societies that the Rules were made at once.
Excluded Classes of Workers
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the Special Orders issued by the National Insurance Commissioners and the Joint Committee, Nos. 916 and 1,886, of 1912, which have the effect of excluding from compulsory insurance under the Act persons engaged in the subsidiary employments of hop-picker, fruit-picker, pea-picker, potato-picker, flower-puller, and onion-peeler, provided they were not insured persons immediately before such employment; and whether, in view of the fact that in many districts women are employed on farms in the subsidiary employments of clover-winning, haymaking, harvesting, and potato-gathering, in which they work on an average two or three days a week during the summer months, the Insurance Commissioners and the Joint Committee will be advised to issue, and will issue, a further Special Order excluding from compulsory insurance under the Act persons engaged in such subsidiary employments provided they are not insured already?
The employments referred to in the latter part of the question belong to a series of seasonal field employments which are the principal source of livelihood of the bulk of the "women engaged in them. If those women engage in hop-picking or fruit-picking they continue to be liable to insurance. The Special Orders referred to were intended to meet the case of those persons not otherwise insurable who engage for short periods in hop-picking or fruit-picking. The Commissioners are not prepared to make an Order which would put a premium on the employment of casual labour to the detriment of those persons who have to rely on these field employments for their living.
Is not the potato-gatherer exempt?
No, the potato-picker is exempt.
Would it not be possible to exempt the potato-gatherer under similar circumstances?
I am afraid, if an Order were made in their case, it would put a premium on casual labour.
Questions
Supervisors of Works (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he has received a petition from the supervisors of works under the Board of Agriculture in the Highlands; if so, whether he has considered it; and whether, in view of the increased work they have to perform under the Land Act, 1911, he can see his way to raise their salary proportionate to other officers in the same grade in the public service?
The reply to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. The Board of Agriculture for Scotland with my approval approached the Treasury last year on behalf of their supervisors of works and obtained some concessions in regard to pay, and the matter has again been under consideration with the view of obtaining further improvement in their salaries and allowances, but a decision has not yet been arrived at.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those supervisors were receiving less per hour than those they were supervising?
No, Sir; I am not aware of that. If my hon. Friend will give me the facts I will look into them.
Scottish Departmental Work (Expenditure)
asked whether he can state the annual sum of money spent on offices, staff, printing, etc., in London on purely Scottish departmental work?
I am unable to give in any complete form the information desired by my hon. Friend, because expenditure of the kind to which he refers occurs upon the Votes for numerous Departments outside the Scottish Office, including, for example, the Home Office, Board of Trade, Office of Works, and the Treasury, and is, in many instances, included in general charges which cannot be divided in the manner he suggests. Taking, however, the two principal Scottish Departments with headquarters in London, the total Vote for the Office of the Secretary for Scotland in the current financial year is £18,776, of which approximately four-fifths is attributable to expenditure in London. The Vote for public education, Scotland, includes £28,203 in respect of salaries and other expenses in connection with the offices in London and Edinburgh, of which approximately two-thirds is spent in London, and £54,103 in respect of the inspectorate and the staff of the Royal Scottish Museum, the whole of which is spent in Scotland.
Before the Scottish Estimates are discussed, could the right hon. Gentleman get the facts for us?
No, Sir; I cannot add anything to the answer I have already given. I have given the reason why I cannot.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give us a return of the stationery with regard to Scotland, and is he aware that in the Census Returns there was a ton of paper over owing to an error?
I do not see how that arises out of the present question.
Milk Supply (Edinburgh)
asked whether 15 per cent. of the milk supply in Edinburgh contains living tubercle; whether this is twice the average of the large towns in the United Kingdom; and what steps are being taken to cope with this condition of affairs?
I am not aware on what authority my hon. Friend makes the statement contained in the first part of the question, as I am informed that the Medical Officer of Health for Edinburgh states that investigations carried on for several years show that only in exceptional cases was the presence of tubercle detected in samples of milk taken in the city. I see no reason to doubt that efficient measures of inspection and examination are in operation, and that as regards its milk supply Edinburgh will compare favourably with other large towns. I may add that Edinburgh occupies a good position when its statistics of mortality from all forms of tuberculosis are compared with the statistics for other large towns in Scotland.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that this statement was made by a well-known professor?
I do not know what are the investigations on which he bases his statement.
Water Power, Highlands of Scotland
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman has seen the proposal made by the chief engineer to the Highland Railway Company regarding the use of the abundant supply of water power in the highlands of Scotland for agricultural and industrial purposes; and whether he will proceed to the immediate appointment of a committee to inquire into this question, as proposed by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The subject of the supply of water power in the highlands has, I believe, been very fully investigated. It is now a question of industrial application, and I am not satisfied that the appointment of a committee would be of material assistance at the present time.
Small Holdings (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland if applications have been received from the crofters of Annat, Ross-shire, for extension of their holdings; and, if so, what steps, if any, have been taken by the Board of Agriculture to deal with these applications?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Steps are being taken to interview the applicants very shortly.
asked whether, respectively, the amount of money actually expended on the establishment of the one small holding recently set up in the county of Perth, and on the negotiations for schemes of land settlement in that county which have fallen through or are still under consideration?
£188 is the amount actually expended on the holding in question, but the estimate of total expenditure thereon is £750. In reply to the second part of the question, it is not possible to allocate preliminary expenditure to particular areas.
asked (1) what sums, if any, have been applied by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland to the equipment of the 160 new small holdings which have been established under the Small Land holders (Scotland) Act, 1911; what sums have been applied to the equipment of the new enlargements; (2) whether, after making due reservation for questions of compensation and other matters not yet settled, he can state the amount spent since 1st April, 1912, to date on the establishment of the 160 new small holdings and 99 enlargements set up under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911?
I must refer my hon. Friend to my previous replies to similar questions, and ask him to wait till the Report of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, now in preparation, is published.
When is the Report likely to be issued?
It is in course of preparation, and it will be issued within a few weeks.
asked whether any or all of the 259 successful applicants for new holdings and enlargements under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, have been allowed to enter into occupation before claims for compensation by previous holders of the land, or by its owners, have been settled?
The majority have entered on occupation before claims of compensation by owners have been settled, but in a number of cases outgoing tenants' claims have been previously met.
asked what proportion of the 8,000 applicants for new small holdings and enlargements, under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, are possessed of the necessary capital to enable them to undertake the minimum responsibilities for the equipment and stocking of the holdings for which they have applied?
Apart from the special cases of difficulty in taking over the stock on Highland sheep farms, the majority of the applicants, so far interviewed, can be said to be possessed of sufficient capital.
asked whether, in view of the fact that shortage of funds had not, so far, hampered the land settlement policy of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, he can state any or all of the reasons why, in a period of two years' working of the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, only 259 applicants for new holdings or enlargements, out of a total of 8,000, have so far had their claims satisfied?
It would be impossible to deal with the matters referred to within the limits of question and answer, and I would remind my hon. Friend that there will probably be an early opportunity of discussing them in debate.
Education Code (Scotland)
asked whether he has ascertained what will be the total amount of the reduction in fee Grants for the current financial year to the principal school boards concerned owing to the new interpretation which the Comptroller and Auditor-General has placed upon Article 20 (II.) ( a ) of the Scottish Education Code; and what will be the total increase in Grants for defective children to the same school boards for the forthcoming financial year as compared with the year 1912–13?
Figures submitted by the school boards concerned show that they estimate the loss of Grant for the current financial year which occurs under Article 129 of the Code (not Article 20 (II.) ( a )) at £3,764. The Scottish Education Department estimate the additional Grant to all school boards under the revised Article 20 (II.) ( a ) at approximately £10,000, which will mean an increase of £4,500 as compared with the total Grants for 1912–13.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the seven principal school boards in Scotland estimate the loss for the current year at £5,493, and only a gain in the future of £135 in Edinburgh and Glasgow?
I am not prepared to accept those figures as accurate.
Will the right hon. Gentleman guarantee to alter the new interpretation of the Code so that the school boards shall not suffer any loss during the forthcoming year, or will he guarantee that it will be made good in the coining years?
No, Sir, I am not prepared to say that.
Whose fault is it?
Court of Session
asked in how many cases the Court of Session has up to the present date been requested to appoint an arbiter under Section 7 of the Act of 1911?
The number is eight, but there are other cases in which an arbitrator has been agreed upon between the Board and the parties concerned.
Vivisection (Edinburgh Hospital)
asked the Lord Advocate if he is aware that a man named Collins, from whom the hospital authorities in Edinburgh purchased the dog for purposes of vivisection, was convicted in connection with a dog stealing case last year and fined £5; and, if so, will he say what action he proposes to take?
The individual referred to in the hon. and gallant Member's question, was convicted on 14th April, 1913, of reset of a stolen dog, and a penalty of £5, or in default thirty-days' imprisonment, was imposed, together with an obligation to find caution, or security for £5, or in default to undergo thirty days' imprisonment. The fact that Collins had been previously convicted was duly considered in relation to the present case. For the reason stated in my reply to the hon. and gallant Member on 3rd March, I do not propose to take any action in the matter.
Is it not the case that under the Dogs Act of 1906 any person finding a homeless dog is obliged to take it within twenty-four hours to the nearest police station?
That may quite well be, but I do not see what bearing it has on the present case, because here a full inquiry was made, and as a full explanation was given by Collins as to how he came by this dog, I fear I cannot take proceedings.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not secure that any dog that is operated upon by a vivisector is kept in confinement, and not allowed to run about disgusting people?
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the expediency of altering the law so that vivisection should not be allowed on dogs unless they are purchased from a recognised dog trainer?
That is not a question which ought to be addressed to me.
Agricultural Organisation Society (Government Grant)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the conditions recently laid down by the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury with reference to the Grants of £9,000 to the Agricultural Organisation. Society in aid of its work during the financial year 1913–14; and whether, having regard to the undertaking given on behalf of the Government by the then Solicitor-General on 9th October, 1909 in the House of Commons, that Grants to promote the organisation of co-operation should not be applied to form a co-operative society for buying or selling, but only to encourage combination among farmers for purposes of securing better transit and marketing facilities for their produce, he will direct the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury to revise the conditions attaching to the Grants in accordance with this undertaking and lay them upon the Table of the House at an early date, or, in the alternative, will discontinue the Grants at the expiration of the present financial year?
The passage to which the hon. Member refers is incompletely quoted in the question. When read with the context and the two discussions of the 7th (not 9th) October, 1909, it does not appear to me to bear the interpretation which he places upon it. The object of the insertion of the words "organisation of" before "co-operation" in the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, was to prohibit advances to co-operative societies for trading purposes. I understand, in point of fact, that the Agricultural Organisation Society carries on no trading business, directly or indirectly.
Were certain conditions not placed upon the Grants that were made to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society for the protection of traders' interests of which English and Scottish traders bitterly complain at the present time?
I should like notice of that question.
Antarctic Expedition (Government Grant)
asked whether the Government has decided to ask Parliament for a Grant of £10,000 towards the cost of another Antarctic or trans-Antarctic expedition?
It is proposed to ask Parliament to vote £5,000 in 1914–15 in aid of Sir Ernest Shackleton's expedition, and a further £5,000 in the following year.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take the sense of the House on this question, or at any rate have the Vote so marked in the Estimates that it shall not escape the notice of hon. Members who may wish to express their opinions upon it?
That depends on the relative importance attached by hon. Members to the Vote.
Is this not a matter of importance—
The hon. Member can form his own opinion upon that.
Treasury Chest Fund
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been drawn to the fact that a loan out of the Treasury Chest Fund was advanced to the Persian Government in the year 1911–12, followed by two other loans from the same fund in 1912–13, and a further loan from the same fund in 1913–14; whether, seeing that advances of any sums out of public funds without previous authority from this House are irregular, he will say why proper authority for the foregoing advances was not sought?
I have no personal knowledge of this matter, but I understand that the advances referred to were made under the authority of the Treasury Trust Fund Act, 1877, which admits temporary advances for any public service to be repaid to the Treasury Chest Fund out of money appropriated by Parliament for the same service, or out of other money applicable thereto. No exception appears to have been taken to these payments by the Controller and Auditor-General.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question which I put as to whether he approves of money being advanced as a loan without the sanction of Parliament?
Of course I do not. This was apparently done under statutory authority.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that in the future it will be lawful for the Treasury to advance loans to foreign countries without the authority of Parliament?
That is a hypothetical question, and I will answer it when it arises.
Suffragist Outrages (Malicious Injuries Act)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in respect of the outrages recently committed in England and Scotland by militant suffragists, he will consider the propriety of extending the provisions of the Malicious Injuries (Ireland) Act to Great Britain?
I do not think it desirable that the provisions of the Acts referred to should be extended to Great Britain.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not think that those outrages are a war against society, and that some steps should be taken to protect innocent people from their consequences?
The question is not as to the propriety, but as to the expediency of the steps to be taken.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the Government might assist those who, both in London and elsewhere, are in charge of national possessions of importance, and not leave the expense of guarding them to fall entirely upon the churches or other places?
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the damage done to-day at the National Gallery to the Rokeby Velasquez amounts to malicious injury in the sense that these words are used in the Irish Act?
Yes, of course I do. The question is whether the provisions of an Act which at present applies to Ireland alone should be extended to Great Britain, and I am not satisfied that would have the effect desired.
Has the right hon. Gentleman no answer to make to my question, seeing that the place I have specially in view is the parish church of the House of Commons, which is now under a large expense in consequence of guarding against these outrages?
I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is doing all that he can, through the police and otherwise, to protect these places.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, if he does not think the Irish Act appropriate, whether he will regard the possibility of proposing some other legislation to meet this difficulty?
I regard it as a very serious matter.
I beg to ask the Hon Secretary a question, of which I have given him private notice, namely: What steps, if any, he proposes to take to protect the art treasures of the nation, in view of the outrage committed this morning at the National Gallery?
I regret to say that a picture, Velasquez's "Venus," was struck seven times with a hatchet and much injured. The police have communicated the fact of this wanton mutilation of one of our art treasures to the authorities responsible for the care and protection of our picture galleries and museums.
Has anyone been arrested?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the case has already been before the police court?
I am aware of the last fact, or, at least, that the case has been mentioned in court. The perpetrator of the deed was one Mary Richardson, who has already been brought before the courts upon another charge.
Is she a suffragette?
Yes.
Isle of Wight Law Courts
asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called by the Isle of Wight Law Society to the congestion of the contentious business in the Isle of Wight courts and the consequent delay and denial of justice to suitors by reason of their being unable to bear the expense of frequent adjournments, the difficulties being further increased by the number of special matters now referred, especially to the county court; and whether he will give consideration to this representation, with a view to ascertaining the causes of this states of things and remedying it?
I am informed that the Isle of Wight Law Society have recently made a representation in the sense of this question to the Lord Chancellor, who is by Statute the authority concerned with County Courts, and that the matter is under his consideration.
National Defence
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to reply to the memorandum addressed to him by the committee of the National Defence Association on the 26th February, 1913?
Careful consideration has been given to the views expressed in the memorandum, which range over the whole field of national defence. I do not understand that the association expected from me a detailed reply. The matters in question can only adequately be treated in discussion in this House.
Foot-and-Mouth Disease
asked the Prime Minister whether he will, at an early date, put down the Vote for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, so that hon. Members may have an opportunity of criticising the administration of the President with regard to the embargo placed on the landing of Irish cattle?
I will bear the hon. Member's suggestion in mind.
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture a question of which I have given him private notice, namely, whether he can state if the Birkenhead lairages, Wallassey and Woodside, have been disinfected, and all hay and straw burnt; if so, whether they will now be opened to the importation of Irish live-stock; whether the report of the inquiry respecting the spread of foot-and-mouth disease from that source has been issued; and whether it is intended to remove the embargo off doubly inspected healthy live-stock coming from uninfected areas in Ireland?
The disinfection of the lairages at Birkenhead has been completed, and all hay and straw will have been removed by to-morrow evening. In view of the new outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease just confirmed at Thurles in county Tipperary, I regret that it is im- possible at present to allow the importation of live-stock from Ireland into Great Britain to be resumed. I hope that the report of the inquiry at Birkenhead will be available before the end of this week; we are still waiting for the observations of the officers of the Irish Department, who are probably busily engaged at the moment in dealing with the outbreak of disease in Ireland.
Will the right hon. Gentleman allow live-stock to be imported from the areas in Ireland which are free from disease?
Our difficulty at the present time is not knowing how far the area of infection may have spread, but as soon as the position has become clearer my right hon. Friend the Vice-President of the Irish Department and I will arrange a boundary, if we can, north of which it will be possible for us to export and import stock over to the English ports.
Am I to understand that at the present time the right hon. Gentleman is not disposed to allow any Irish live-stock to be imported?
That is exactly what I said, in view of the uncertainty of the position in Ireland.
From where did the hay and straw which is to be burned tomorrow come?
I have answered two or three questions on that for some time past. The reason why the hay and straw is being destroyed is not that it has infected the animals, but that the animals have infected it.
Where did it come from?
May I ask the Vice-President when the restrictions will be removed from the district of Naas, and shall we be allowed to hold our fair on 18th March?
I cannot accede to the hon. Gentleman's request that a fair at Naas should be held on the 18th instant.
North Sea (International Investigation)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he proposes to continue the International investigation of the North Sea so far as this country is concerned; if so, how long does his Department anticipate that the investigation will continue; and is it anticipated that the further cost to this country will be as much as another £154,000, which is the sum already spent by Great Britain?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. At the last meeting of the International Council the British Delegates, in accordance with instructions given to them by the Government, moved a resolution which was adopted unanimously by the council in favour of cooperation for a further period of five years on the understanding that before the expiration of that term the question of further co-operation should be considered anew in the light of the progress made. The annual cost of the investigations to Great Britain is approximately £14,500, and I cannot at present see any prospect of a reduction of the rate of expenditure if the investigations are to be adequately carried on.
British East Africa
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in reference to the East African Protectorate, whether residents in the Uasin Gishu plateau are apprehensive of a native rising, and that some of them have arranged to laager at the farm house of a settler, who owns a gatling gun, in the event of trouble, and whether the British Minister at Adis Ababa is making any arrangements for the protection of settlers in the outlying districts?
:I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for West Bristol on the 16th of February.
Somaliland
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether political officers serving under the Colonial Office in Somaliland before the evacuation of the hinterland were allowed to count their service in Somaliland towards pension and not seniority, whereby they lost many years' seniority and the advantages consequent thereupon; and whether he will take steps to ensure that these officers shall not lose seniority in the Colonial Office service by reason simply of the evacuation of certain parts of that territory?
Most careful consideration was given to the three cases in question, but it was, unfortunately, not possible to allow the retrenched officers to retain their seniority without injustice to officers already serving in the Protectorates to which they were transferred. On the other hand, there were compensating advantages in their being transferred to Protectorates where, on the whole, the conditions of service are less arduous and the prospects of advancement better. It must also be remembered that seniority in itself does not give an officer in the Colonial service a claim to promotion.
Building Trade Dispute
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, upon how many of the buildings in course of erection in the London district for the Office of Works the work is entirely suspended, upon how many the work is partially suspended, and upon how many the work is progressing at the normal rate?
Ten entirely suspended, nine partially suspended, and six progressing normally.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is no dispute between the employers and the workmen regarding hours of labour and wages or the general conditions of work as agreed to and signed by the two parties, and, that being so, will the Office of Works take over the jobs that are at a standstill and carry them on themselves?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will put his suggestion in writing.
Public Vaccinators
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he will supply a list of the unions in which public vaccinators and vaccination officers are paid fixed salaries, together with the amount of the salary paid to each such official?
I will send the hon. Member the information for which he asks.
Milk and Dairies Bill
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, and, if so, when, he proposes to reintroduce the Milk and Dairies Bill of last Session, or, alternatively, to introduce some other Bill with similar objects?
I am in communication with the representatives of the various interests affected, and am not yet in a position to make a definite statement with respect to the introduction of the Bill.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is considering the well-founded objections that dairymen and milk-sellers have to some of the provisions of the Bill with a view of their being amended?
Yes. If the Bill is introduced, it will probably be in a somewhat different form, and, as I have stated, I am in communication with the various interests affected.
Royal Navy
German Navy
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Government has information to the effect that the Imperial German Government proposes to create two strong naval wings on the German coasts in order to resist a blockade?
Sir, I am informed that, according to the newspapers, a statement to this effect has been made by the President of the German Navy League.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know nothing of his own knowledge? Does he know nothing more than that?
I have given a full answer to the question.
Am I not in order in asking for an answer from the right hon. Gentleman?
The hon. Member has got an answer.
Salvage Operations (Submarines)
asked who was the officer in charge of the salvage operations in connection with Submarine A7; and who was the officer in charge of the salvage operations in connection with Submarine C14?
Lieutenant William H. Highfield, Royal Navy, of Sheerness Dockyard, was, under the directions of the Commander-in-Chief at Devonport, in charge of the salvage operations in connection with both Submarine C14 and Submarine A7.
Has the officer had charge of any other salvage work in connection with the raising of submarines in the past?
I do not know. I could not deal with the case of an individual officer and with the details of his previous career without having full notice and being able to consult the records. Perhaps the hon. Member will write to me on the subject if he has any complaint to make against this officer, or anything of the sort. Nothing is known at the Admiralty.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the officer and men engaged in this work have been favourably reported on at the Admiralty?
It is a serious thing for me to speak about an officer of junior rank serving under the Admiralty. I have every reason to believe that he is regarded with great confidence by his superiors.
Estimates
asked if it is proposed to construct a naval base at Cromarty; and, if so, whether provision therefor is made in the Navy Estimates for next year?
Cromarty Firth has become an important Fleet anchorage, and the Admiralty has made arrangements for its approach to be defended by guns manned by a Royal Marine garrison. There is an oil-fuel depot further up the Firth. Provision has been made for the services mentioned in the current and forthcoming year's Estimates.
Coastguard Service
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty what provision is made by the Admiralty to enable the Coastguard Service to secure on loan suitable reading matter in the form of books or magazines; what is the annual cost of such provision; and whether the arrangements are of a character to make it easy for Coastguards in out-of-the-way stations to secure books that will be of educational value to them?
Circulating and reference libraries are provided for the Coastguard. From the former books are circulated every six months, and the Coastguard have facilities for obtaining on loan books from the reference library. The initial cost of the books was £700, paid in 1910–11.
Scapa-Flow Harbour
asked the President of the Board of Trade if any scheme is in contemplation for the construction of harbour works at Scapa-Flow; if any application has been made to the Government for financial assistance in the matter; and if any provision therefor is to be made in the Estimates for next year?
I have been asked by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to answer this question. So far as is known at the Admiralty, no scheme is in contemplation for the construction of harbour works at Scapa-Flow, nor has any application been received by the Admiralty for financial assistance in the matter, and no provision is being made for such works in the Estimates for next year. The existing pier at Scapa-Flow is being extended for naval purposes at Admiralty expense at a cost of about £9,000, and a balance of £4,500 is being provided in next year's Estimates to complete the work.
Was the suggestion of Government help, made by the hon. Member for Dumfries on the 24th November last, authorised by the Government?
I know nothing of the matter. I am simply answering the question for the Board of Trade.
Are we to understand this statement was made purely for electioneering purposes?
I really do not know why the hon. Gentleman should press me on the subject.
You are a member of the Government.
You will never be!
Questions
Railway Carriage Doors (Accidents)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps, if any, the Board are taking to insist upon railway companies adopting due precautions for the prevention of accidents arising in connection with the doors of railway carriages; and whether he is aware that recently within a week, owing to lack of such precautions, fatal accidents have occurred to railway passengers at Urmston, near Manchester, and at Kettering, and that another lies in a critical condition at Nottingham through falling out of railway carriages?
Returns of these accidents have been received from the companies concerned, and are under consideration. The Board of Trade have not seen their way to recommend that carriage doors should be locked, in view of the possibility that passengers might be unable to leave the carriages in case of emergency.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware there are other methods of preventing such accidents besides locking doors?
There are many methods, but the most successful method—locking carriage doors—to prevent people tumbling out may be the worst method when people want to get out in the event of an accident.
Workmen's Railway Tickets
asked the President of the Board of Trade what time the last workmen's tickets are issued in the morning from the Mansion House and Fenchurch Street Stations to Bromley and East Ham?
I have communicated with the two railway companies concerned in this matter, and am sending my hon. Friend copies of their replies.
Agricultural Labourers' Strike (West Norfolk)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the intervention of his Department has been sought by either the farmers or the Agricultural Labourers' Union, or other representatives of the labourers, involved in the strikes now proceeding in the West Norfolk villages of Hillington, Flitcham, and Babingley, with a view to a settlement being attained on the basis of the conditions recently introduced on the farm at Sandringham and recognised by some farmers in the district; and, if so, can he state if, and what, action is contemplated?
No application for the services of the Board of Trade has been received from either party in connection with this dispute.
Will it be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to take the initiative in the matter?
I am making inquiries.
London Coal Porters' Strike
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the London County Council Education General Purposes Subcommittee have made a grant of £30 and other sums to the officers of the staff, stores, and other departments as a reward for energy displayed in January last in assisting to defeat the claims of London coal porters for a higher standard of life; and if this disbursement of money is in accordance with the Regulations of the Board?
My right hon. Friend has no official information on the subject, which would not, in any case, come within the scope of any Regulation of the Board.
Was the committee in order in granting money for strikebreakers? Have the Education Board no power in the matter?
The expenditure is entirely in the discretion of the local education authority, subject, of course, to the usual audit by the Local Government Board.
Revenue Collection, Argyllshire
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether notices threatening distraint in seven days if Inland Revenue taxes are not paid have been sent out in Argyllshire and Dumfriesshire; if so, will he explain why these shires should be among the first to threaten distraint; will he say whether such notices have been sent out in any part of England or Wales; and whether such notices have yet been thought of for London?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to his question on the 25th February. Final notices are in process of issue in all parts of Great Britain. Argyllshire and Dumfriesshire are not being treated exceptionally in this respect.
Can the hon. Gentleman say if in any other counties in Great Britain the notices are out yet?
Perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to look at the answer I gave the other day.
Customs and Excise (Assistant Clerks)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state respectively the number of assistant clerks employed in the Statistical Office and the Tea and Dry Goods Accounts, His Majesty's Customs and Excise, London; the date of the introduction of assistant clerks into each of those offices; the designation of the grade of clerk formerly employed in each office on the work at present performed by assistant clerks (abstractors); and the respective scales of salary paid to the assistant clerks, and the clerks employed prior to the introduction of assistant clerks (abstractors) in each of those offices?
The answer to the first part of the question is 224 and eighty-nine, respectively; to the second part, 1896 and 1901, respectively; to the third and fourth parts, that owing to rearrangements of work which have taken place from time to time since the introduction of the assistant clerks' class, it is not possible to say precisely what grade of clerk was formerly employed in each office on the work now performed by them.
Vaccination Act, 1907
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been drawn to the fact that at a meeting of the Halstead guardians, on the 13th February, Mr. C. E. Brewster, J.P., the chairman of the board, said that he had never signed a statutory declaration certificate under the Vaccination Act, 1907, and that he should never do so; whether he is aware that other magistrates throughout the country have adopted a similar attitude towards the provisions of the Act in question; and whether steps can be taken to secure the general co-operation of magistrates in the administration thereof?
My attention has not previously been drawn to this matter. I have received a few complaints of a similar nature, but I have no reason to think that any persistent refusal to assist in giving effect to the law is other than extremely rare; and, so far as I am aware, magistrates generally do co-operate in the administration of the Act.
Factory Inspectors
asked the Home Secretary the number of factory inspectors and assistant factory inspectors, male and female?
The authorised strength is as follows:—
Police Regulations (Publications)
asked the Home Secretary whether Constable Green, of Lewisham, and Constable Thornton, of Kensington, have been reprimanded and cautioned for supplying other constables at their request with copies of the Police and Prison Officers' Journal; what offence has been committed against the police regulations; and why police are allowed to sell on police premises without any objection another paper entitled "On and Off Duty"?
The Commissioner is entrusted by the law with the control and discipline of the Metropolitan Police, and I am satisfied that he acted properly in the case referred to in dealing with officers who circulated a paper directly inciting to disobedience to the police regulations. With regard to the last part of the question, I understand that the Commissioner contemplates issuing an order that no articles are to be sold on police premises without permission, as the necessity for such a rule has now become apparent.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think it right and proper to discriminate between these two papers, and would it not have been the proper course to withdraw the one mentioned in the latter part of the question before taking action in regard to the other?
As I have stated in my answer, one of the papers directly incited to disobedience of the police regulations. The other did not do so.
Coal Mines (Rescue Staff)
asked the Home Secretary whether the arrangement arrived at between the coalowners and the miners' representatives, in the hearing before the referee as to the form of the amended Home Office regulations dealing with the provision of self-contained breathing apparatus at all collieries, under Section 85 of the Coal Mines Act, 1911, will relieve the coalowners from the obligation to provide self-contained breathing apparatus and trained rescue staff at collieries where fewer than one hundred miners are employed?
No, Sir, the position of these small mines will remain practically unaffected. Under the present regulations they may be exempted by the Secretary of State in certain circumstances, but if not so exempted they must either provide a rescue brigade and breathing appliances at the mine or obtain them when required from a central rescue station. It is not proposed by the new regulations to relieve them from this obligation.
High Court Judges (King's Bench Division)
asked the Attorney-General whether there are now any arrears of cases in the King's Bench Division of the High Court; and whether it is proposed to maintain the number of judges in that division at eighteen?
There are now no arrears of cases in the King's Bench Division, but I am informed that unless the number of judges is maintained at eighteen there will be no possibility of complying with the other re commendations of the Royal Commission.
May we take it that eighteen will remain the constant number of judges in this division of the High Court?
As my hon. Friend knows, it will be necessary to obtain the authority of Parliament, either by legislation or resolution, before the number of eighteen can be altered.
Athlone Floods
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if his attention has recently been called to the flooded condition of the country in the vicinity of Athlone, county Westmeath, and the fear that an outbreak of fever may result; and if he can now state what action the Government propose to take in connection with Mr. O'Connor's inquiry and report?
I have received a Report from the Board of Works, from which I gather that the February flood of this year, although serious, is not as great as that of previous years. I am also aware that the apprehended danger to the health of the district is being closely watched by the Local Government Board and the medical officers of the local authorities. With regard to the last paragraph, I am not yet in a position to add anything to my reply to the previous question of the hon. Baronet.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received messages from the Westmeath County Council and the Athlone Urban Council requesting him to extend to the Shannon district the terms offered last year to the portion of the country drained by the River Barrow?
Yes, Sir.
Will he do so?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Irish Parliament was discussing the drainage of the Barrow district at the moment of its dissolution, and that not one penny of national money has been spent on that system of drainage from that day to this; and does not the Barrow overflow its banks four times a year regularly?
I could not be expected to act with greater promptitude than the Irish Parliament.
Assistant School Teachers (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland the number of assistant teachers in Ireland promoted to second grade in each of the years ended December, 1900, to 1913; what was the rule by which promotions were decided in the earlier years; and what is the rule to-day?
The Commissioners of National Education inform me that assistant teachers are ineligible for promotion beyond the third grade unless in exceptional circumstances, and by special order of the Commissioners. No such promotions were made between 1900 and 1909, as there were comparatively few assistant teachers who had reached the maximum of the third grade before that year in whose favour exceptional circumstances could be claimed to exist. In each of the years 1909 and 1911 one assistant was promoted. In 1912 the Commissioners found that a large number of assistant teachers had reached the maximum of the third grade, and that in many cases they were worthy of promotion. After a full consideration of all the circumstances, the Commissioners decided in August, 1912, that assistant teachers of long service and exceptional efficiency might be promoted to the second grade by their special order provided they had been in receipt of the maximum salary of the third grade (including the bonus awarded under the Irish Education Act, 1892) for not less than three years, and that they had secured "very good" or "excellent" reports continuously for six years. In connection with this order ninety-six assistant teachers were specially promoted from April, 1912, and thirty-seven from April, 1913.
Orders of the Day
Notices of Motion
National Insurance Act (Medical Relief)
To call attention upon this day two weeks to Medical Relief under the Insurance Act, particularly in regard to Sanatoria, and to move a Resolution.—[ Sir H. Craik. ]
Canals and Waterways
To call attention upon this day two weeks to the question of Canals and Waterways, and to move a Resolution.—( Mr. George Thorne. ]
San Francisco Exhibition
To call attention upon this day two weeks to the forthcoming International Exhibition at San Francisco, and to move a Resolution.—[ Sir Godfrey Baring. ]
Bills Presented
Local Government (Qualification for Office) Bill
"To amend the Law with regard to the qualification of members of county, borough, district, and parish councils and boards of guardians in England and Wales." Presented by Lord ROBEBT CECIL; supported by Mr. Wright, Mr. Pollock, and Mr. Dickinson; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 108.]
Diseases of Animals (Ireland) Bill
"To amend Sub-section (5) of Section seventy-one of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894." Presented by Mr. T. W. RUSSELL; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 109.]
COUNTY AND BOROUGH COUNCILS (QUALIFICATION) (No. 2) BILL
"To extend the qualifications for membership of County and Borough Councils." Presented by Mr. HEBBEBT SAMUEL; supported by Mr. Burns, and Mr. Herbert Lewis; to be read a second time tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 110.]
Poor Law Officers Superannuation (Scotland) Bill
"To provide for superannuation allowances to Poor Law officers and servants in Scotland and for contributions towards such allowances by such officers and servants; and to make other relative provisions." Presented by Mr. DUNCAN MILLAR; supported by Sir John M'Callum, Mr. Scott Dickson, Mr. Barnes, Mr. MacCallum Scott, Mr. Scanlan, Mr. Godfrey Collins, Mr. Dundas White, Major Anstruther-Gray, and Dr. Chapple; to be read a second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 111.]
Juries (Exemption) Bill
"To amend the Law relating to service on Juries." Presented by Mr. WILES; supported by Mr. Radford, Mr. Touche, Mr. Yeo, Mr. Carr-Gomm, Mr. Dickinson, Captain Jessel, Mr. Hamilton Benn, Mr. Dawes, and Sir Howell Davies; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 112.]
Police Acts (Amendment) Bill
"To amend the Police Acts, 1839 to 1909, and to make more secure provision for incapacitated constables, and for the widows, children, and other dependents of constables." Presented by Mr. WILES; supported by Sir Charles Swann, Sir James Fortescue Flannery, Sir William Priestley, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Dickinson, and Mr. Remnant; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 113.]
Supply
Army Estimates, 1914–15
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
Colonel Seely's Statement
It may be a convenience if I give the House a very short resumé of of the number of troops we have available and the different purposes for which they are required. Before I deal with that, may I say that, having now introduced these Estimates for several years in succession, it is to me, and I am convinced to every Member of this House, with a sense of deep regret that we have not got opposite to us Mr. George Wyndham, who for years in succession dealt with these questions with a complete absence of partisan spirit, and with a wide knowledge which added nothing but knowledge to our Debates. The Estimates which I lay before the House show a substantial increase on last year. Their increase is due, as I have indicated, to two main causes—the scheme for increasing the pay of officers and for giving promotion from the ranks to a larger number of men in the ranks, and also for the increased needs of aviation. But apart from these necessary increases the criticism may well be made that the number of men which we now have is somewhat less and the amount of money demanded is considerably more. That is, I believe, a permanent feature of our Military Estimates. I do not believe that unless you greatly reduce your numbers you will ever reduce substantially your Army Estimates. The cost of living has gone up in all directions, and this applies in equal or greater measure to the Armies of the world. To take only one instance: to every Army now has to be added an Aviation Service. There will be found in the Army Estimates a very rough guess—it can be no more—of what every Cavalryman, each Artilleryman, and each Infantryman costs. There is no estimate yet of what each airman costs, but from a calculation I have made there can be no doubt that he is at least double as costly as any of the others, and so it must always be. Therefore, I make no apology to the House for the comparatively small increase due to what I believe to be a permanent feature of all Armies in the world. The cost of all Armies per man is bound to increase.
4.0 P.M.
I said it might be a convenience if I gave a very rough picture of what the British Army is and what it is for. Our Army is different from any other Army in the world in that approximately one-half of it is always ready for war and fully mobilised—that is, the Army abroad, and the other half, the Army at home, in order to be ready for war in the fullest sense, requires to be mobilised with a substantially greater proportion of Reservists, compared with some of the more efficient armies of the Continent, than is the case with the Army abroad. I understand that there is a Motion before the House to call attention to the shortage of numbers. I will deal with the shortage of numbers with regard to the different branches of the Army. First of all, with regard to the Regular Army. It is true there is a shortage in the Regular Army. In dealing with that shortage I shall use round numbers. I shall be glad to give the precise numbers when required. That shortage in the case of the Regular Army is 8,000 men. These are the men with the Colours. There is a surplus of the Army abroad and there is a deficiency of the Army at home, but on net balance of men with the Colours, there is a deficiency of 8,000 men. On the other hand, in the Reserve of the Army there is a surplus over the normal of 13,000. Therefore, when the Army mobilises, we have approximately 5,000 more men over the normal in order to deal with the situation which may then arise. It will be seen, therefore, that though there is a substantial shortage in the Special Reserve of the Territorial Force, with regard to the Regular Army the House need have no concern that there is any breakdown in our military system. Of course, the consequences of there being this shortage of about 8,000 men with the Colours means that, on mobilisation of our Army at home, we should have a rather larger proportion of Reservists than we otherwise should have, and to that extent we are a shade weaker in the view of many officers, and especially of my hon. and gallant Friend opposite, who has consistently urged for the last three years that our proportion of Reservists is greater than that of foreign Armies, and that it is desirable we should reduce our proportion. On the other hand, as I have shown, there is a surplus over the normal, over the whole matter on mobilisation, of some 5,000 men. It has to be borne in mind that, although half our Army at home is mobilised, we have a larger percentage of Reservists in that Army than is the case in foreign Armies. In the case of the other half of our Army, we have no Reservists at all, for they are mobilised already, and therefore, in comparison with foreign Armies, our Army has fewer Reservists than any Army in the world. The figures are approximately as follows: We have here at home to-day, according to the latest Returns, 121,000 men of all ranks and all arms. Abroad we have approximately 117,000 men of all arms. Those are white troops recruited in this country. It is quite true that, with regard to the 121,000 men, we have a considerable number of immature men, of untrained men, seeing that they have only just been recruited, and of men not fit for war for various reasons, but, as against that, we have an Army Reserve instantly available of 146,000 men. Let us see what the position would be—and I thought it might interest the House if I made this calculation—if we went to war to-morrow. We should have in India and the Colonies 117,000 men fully mobilised. We should have at home 121,000 men, and we should be able to call upon an Army Reserve of 146,000 men.
Is that the normal to-day?
That is to-day. Our Reserve is above the normal by about 13,000 men. You make the normal as being in the neighbourhood of 132,000 to 133,000. To-day it is 146,000. If we mobilised, as we should instantly on the declaration of war, within a very short time—it has never been stated in how short a time—but I am able to state that the time has now been shortened to far less than was ever thought possible until the last few years. The speeding up of our mobilising arrangements during the last few years has been remarkable, and I think most successful. We should then mobilise an Expeditionary Force of about 162,000 men, complete in all details—men, horses, rifles, guns, and ammunition. I am persuaded that there would be no muddling in this matter now. After years of patient labour on the part of officers specially charged with this Department I am confident that there would be no mistake in the provision of the Expeditionary Force. I will deal later with the reinforcement of that force, but for its actual provision at the moment, for the needs of the Empire, I think I may say with confidence that that force would be forthcoming, and that there would be neither great gaps nor mistakes in its equipment or in its numbers. I may be asked, "But what have you got before mobilisation?" The House may say, "We understand that we have this force of 117,000 men abroad, a force of six divisions, amounting to 162,000 men, with, of course, the garrisons for our defended ports, and, with a certain number of Regular troops left over who are now being organised themselves into mobile units, but what have you got in time of peace, supposing a sudden attack were made upon this country?" I fully admit that in dealing with this question we are at a certain disadvantage. Nobody can consider what would happen to this country in the event of a sudden attempt at invasion without taking into account both the Army and the Navy, the functions of both of which are absolutely vital to the consideration of this problem. I cannot deal with that to-day, because it would obviously be far better that the matter should be dealt with as a whole by the Prime Minister when he deals with the Report of the Sub-committee to which he has referred, and with regard to which he gave an answer to the hon. Member for Fare-ham (Mr. Lee) yesterday, in due course when he lays the whole of this matter before the House. Therefore, I do not propose to deal at all to-day with the question of invasion, except to take the point that I have been asked to take with regard to what is immediately available for service in this country in an emergency.
It is difficult to say, without making plain our different plans, what is the precise force which is always ready to deal with any unexpected emergency within-these Islands. I would only suggest, as a way of arriving at some measure of the truth, the consideration of what takes place at the time of our annual manœuvres, and what has taken place at the time of civil commotion some years ago. Last year there were of the unmobilised Army a little over 45,000 men of all arms present at the manœuvres, at which the hon. Gentleman opposite was present—the grand manœuvres in Buckinghamshire. This year in Ireland of troops not represented at the manœuvres here there were some 12,000. Broadly speaking, then, for the purposes of manœuvres and for any sudden emergency of any kind, we have always instantly ready within a few hours to go anywhere over 50,000 men of all arms. It may be said that that is a small affair to deal with an emergency that might arise from oversea, but I would appeal to the House not to go into the question of invasion at the present moment until the matter has been fully dealt with by the Prime Minister, and to remember that we have this force available, which clearly is of such power and value that the greater part of the problem of immediate invasion may be said to be solved by its possession. The more important question which I understand hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to raise is—what would happen to this country after mobilisation, and in the absence of the Regular Army? That, I understand, is their real question, and I have only dealt with the other aspect of it in order to-clear it out of the way, so that when we come to discuss the question of invasion and raids we may set aside the question of the problem of "a bolt from the blue" when the Regular Army is out of the country.
That is what I ask the House to vote these Estimates for—a Regular Army in this country which provides some 50,000 men of all arms available at an hour's notice, which provides an Expeditionary Force of 162,000, together with garrisons for our defended ports, and for regular units which can be organised into a force of considerable value, and the force Overseas, partly paid for by India, by Egypt, and by our Colonies, of 117,000 men. That is what these Estimates provide, and I hope the House will see that those who have said that the British Army is a negligible quantity, those who have said that it is not ready for war, those who have said that in the event of various sudden emergencies it would prove wanting, have got no warrant for their statements. I do not say that the Army which I have described would meet every call that might be made upon our Empire. It could not. We want help from the people of this country other than the Regular Army. We want help from our Dominions overseas, but I do say that for the purposes of immediate danger, a bolt from the blue, our Army is now well organised, well equipped, and ready for the duties which it may have to perform. I have dealt with the numbers. I will now, if I may, deal with the officers and the men of the Regular Forces. This is the first year in which the new scheme for officers' pay comes into operation, involving a cost of a little over £140,000 a year. It will also mean promotion from the ranks, under the new scheme, of a considerable number of men, who, I believe, will be of immense advantage to the Army. The scheme I was permitted to lay before the House more than a year ago has received general commendation, but I have seen in various quarters a suggestion that promotion from the ranks is foreign to the principles of the British Army. Those who so speak know little of the past—this is no party matter—and know little of the present of the British Army. I was reading only the other day a statement by Lord Wolseley, which he has, I understand, embodied in the "Soldier's Pocket Book," but I read it in another book. Lord Wolseley said:— with Lord Wolseley's dictum, and the numbers will increase. If you are going to make any great reform in the British Army you cannot do it in a hurry. One thing very necessary is that the men so promoted should have educational advantages which will enable them to hold their own with those who have gone through Sandhurst, through the universities, and by other means. It is quite clear that we must have some school for these men to go to. The chief of the Imperial General Staff is giving his closest attention to this aspect of the question; he does not wish to make any announcement of what he thinks will be the best plan of dealing with the matter at the present time. We sent over an officer with a special knowledge of this matter to study the way in which they do the thing in France, where, as the House knows, a large proportion, about half, of the officers are promoted from the ranks. Of course, the French Army is different from ours in every particular, and notably in the fact that as it is recruited by compulsory methods, you get men of all standards of education in the ranks simultaneously. I must ask the House, then, not to press me as to the methods which we are going to adopt this year for providing proper education for the men promoted from the ranks. Various suggestions have been made. A special school is one; that they should attend Sandhurst is another; that they should have other facilities is a third. I can only assure the House that Sir John French is determined to find a good method of solving this problem, and by next year, when the Estimates come to be placed before the House, it will be possible to say what measures have been taken in order to secure that the fullest educational advantages shall be given to the men promoted from the ranks.
With regard to the men in the Army, I have said that there is a shortage of the Army at home of 8,000, and I have explained that for the purposes of mobilisation we need not be concerned with that shortage. Owing to the increased size of the Reserve, actually more men are available on invasion than there would have been had the numbers been full and the Reserve been smaller; but it is a fact that recruiting gives us anxiety. It was for that reason above all others that I sanctioned the experiment of advertising in the Press what the advantages of the soldier are, and the employment of other methods of which there has been some criticism, what they call the Army film—the cinematograph. I do not think myself that it would have been right to have refused permission to either of these methods of making the advantages of the Army known. Although there is no immediate anxiety for the purpose of war in the shortage of recruits, it does seem to me highly undesirable and unworthy that whenever the rest of England is prosperous and happy, the Army should be trembling as to the possibility of filling its numbers. The Army ought to be independent of occasions such as those. When the country prospers the Army ought to prosper. The Army is part of the country; it comes from the country and goes back to the country; it is ridiculous that it should only prosper by the misfortunes of the country. I am glad to say that the result of the advertisement scheme has been not unsatisfactory so far as it has gone. It is too early yet to judge precisely of what the effect will be, but we have obtained more than a thousand more recruits since the date when the advertisement first appeared than we obtained in the corresponding period of last year. How long that will continue I do not know.
How many have been obtained?
I do not carry the figures in my head, but anyone can easily evolve them from this. We recruit approximately 34,000 a year. The advertisement appeared about five weeks ago, and we have obtained a thousand more in the period than we did last year. I will have the figures ready for hon. Members.
Thirty-three per cent, more.
It is not quite so much as that, but it has made a substantial increase in the numbers obtained for the Regular Army and the Special Reserve. The total increase in numbers has been over a thousand, but, after all, I only sanctioned these schemes with a definite object in view; that was to make fully known the advantages of the Army to the serving soldier, which are very great, and then, if possible, to see that the great defect of the Cardwell system was remedied. The Cardwell system, I am persuaded, is very good for the State, but it seems to me to be bad for the man. Having given three years close attention to this question, I do believe that under no other system could you for the same money get the same available strength as that which I described in the beginning of my speech. I believe that it is a most extraordinarily ingenious and flexible plan for obtaining military strength in the complex circumstances of our Empire, but it is bad for the man as compared with other State services, as compared with the Navy, which is mostly a long service, or with the Post Office, which is a continuous service, or with the Civil Service, which is a continuous service, and it is a reproach to us if we allow to continue a system which is so good for us as a nation, but which does cause such hardship to the men. It will be seen from page 18 of the General Annual Report with regard to men who leave the Army that in the year under review some 28,000 men left the Army. Of those, 24,000 were men of good character, and of the 24,000 the various organisations reported to us that employment was found for 16,000 men. I do not say that that was permanent employment. It was not, because in some cases the employment offered was only temporary, and in other cases, and they are many, although the employment offered was permanent, the men themselves did not care to stay in it. But even taking the figures as they stand, in these days when we protest in every speech which we make, whether we be Liberals or Conservatives, or belong to the Labour party or the Irish party, against blind-alley employment, and when that is the ordinary tag to any speech on social betterment I do think that we ought to pay attention to this aspect of the matter.
I saw my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on the subject, and he was good enough to agree to the appointment of a Committee to investigate this problem. The Chairman of it is a man whose name will commend itself to everybody in this House for he has had a varied career, both in the Army, and as the Governor of a Colony at a most critical time, and as a Civil servant — I mean Sir Matthew Nathan. Associated with him are great employers of labour, and men high in the Civil Service, and I am glad to say my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. John Ward), whose services in this matter of the employment of ex-soldiers, have been at our disposal before, and whose help in this matter we are glad to acknowledge. I do believe that it is possible to cope with this problem. That it will be possible to cope with it by giving to every soldier employment in a Government Department, I do not believe. The numbers of vacancies are much smaller than people suppose. Unless you include the Post Office, the number of vacancies in the ordinary Government Departments are surprisingly small. Nor is it always the case that the duty is one which the soldier, leaving the Colours, is best fitted to perform. It is ridiculous to ask the soldier, leaving the Colours full of life and vigour, to become a park keeper at the age of 29 or 30. He does not want to do it; he wants to be a vigorous strong man, and to do more vigorous work. I cannot give any account yet of what Sir Matthew Nathan has been able to do. He has been good enough to write me a very full letter showing the difficulties of the problem which confronts him; but I hope and believe that before the Estimates next come to be presented to the House of Commons, what I have advisedly called the reproach of the Cardwell system, namely, that it does not provide even for the best of men any sort of future employment, may be removed. It is that at which we should aim, and we should not rest satisfied until that is done.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has received any Report from the Committee relating to this subject, and also whether he proposes to lay the Report before the House so that the House may know what has been done in the matter?
I am glad that my hon. Friend has interrupted me on that point, because I had intended before I left it to refer to the preliminary labours of the Committee, presided over by Sir Edward Ward, who was for so many years, I think thirty years, Permanent Under-Secretary of State for the War Office, of which Committee my hon. Friend was also a member. That has cleared the ground to a great extent of many of the problems which have got to be faced in dealing with this question, and I certainly will accept the suggestion of my hon. Friend and will lay before the House the findings of and all relevant matters connected with the Committee over which Sir Edward Ward presided; and perhaps I may be permitted to take this opportunity of saying, and I am sure that the House will agree, that we all desire to acknowledge the services which Sir Edward Ward has rendered to the Army. I have dealt with the Regular Army, and now I come to the other Army Services, the Special Reserve and the Territorial Force. I have said that the Regular Army is causing us no anxiety for the purpose of mobilisation with regard to numbers; but with regard to the Special Reserve the statistics are not so favourable. Taking the latest available figures, there is a shortage, approximately—again I use round numbers—of 13,000 men and 400 officers. But, of course, this does not show the full shortage compared with last year, because, owing to the advance of mechanical transport, it was possible and right for us to greatly reduce the establishment of the Special Reserve. Before that we did require a large number of Artillery in the Special Reserve to provide for our Expeditionary Force. These are not now required, as their places are taken by mechanical transport, needing a much smaller number of men, as anyone can see. Therefore, we reduced the establishment, and, when I say the shortage is 13,000 men, you must take that coupled with the fact that there would have been a considerably larger shortage but for the reduction of the establishment.
:Is the establishment only reduced in the case of the Artillery, and not in the case of the Infantry?
I should not like to say offhand, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite can answer that question more rapidly than I can, for he has been engaged now for many months on a Committee which is investigating the subject. The establishment in the main has been reduced in respect of the Artillery. This is unsatisfactory. I do not believe there is any scheme by which we can produce a force like the Special Reserve, with its present limitations as to service and as to duties it will perform in war, up to the standard laid down by my predecessor. Lord Haldane. I do not believe that is possible in the present circumstances. English people love co-operation, and, no doubt, when I apply it to the English, I mean the Scottish, Irish, and Welsh. [An HON. MEMBER: "British."] No, no. Never British; that does not include Irish—English, which includes all. This people—I will put it that way—wishes to co-operate in a special degree. Everyone will remember the saying of a Frenchman—I think it was Talleyrand—that, in the event of a number of Englishmen being shipwrecked on an island, the first thing they would do would be to form a committee and elect a chairman. Whatever they do they wish to act together. The difficulty with the Special Reserve is the difficulty that when war comes the Special Reserve goes to war with different units, except in the case of twenty-seven extra Reserve battalions, who go as units. That, I believe, is the real difficulty.
I may be asked, "Why do you continue to put on the Estimates a Vote for a force which is always below strength?" I answer that the Special Reserve, in addition to all the other things it does, provides a doorway through which go a great number of excellent recruits, many of whom will not join the Regular Army straight away, but are ready to join the Reserve, and they very often go on to the Regular Army, when they find they like the life. Therefore, I think that any Secretary of State would be ill-advised if, just in. a fit of pique, and because he could not get his number, he organised the British Army into two lines, and two only—the Regular Army and the Territorial Force. You do want a third line, which provides, among other valuable services, a half-way house for the would-be recruit under our voluntary system. Here may I acknowledge the services rendered to us by the Committee over which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State presides, of which Lord Salisbury, the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, the hon. and gallant Member for the Woodbridge Division, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Lich-field were members. They have given many months of study to this question, and they have made many recommendations in accordance with the comparatively restricted terms of their reference. I hope to be able to carry out the great majority of their recommendations in so far as the exigencies of finance will permit. I hope in the course of this Debate the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who have given me so much assistance will make further suggestions, and my hon. Friend the Undersecretary of State will be able to deal with the matter at greater length.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether the 233 officers increase in the Special Reserve includes those officers from the Regular Army serving to get their £100?
I cannot say offhand, but I will make a note of the Noble Lord's request, and will let him know in the course of the day.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say, in the course of this Debate, whether he will be able to announce the adoption of any of the recommendations of the Departmental Committee?
Yes, that is what I meant to imply when I said I hoped the Under-Secretary of State would make a further statement on this matter. He will announce what part of the recommendations of that Committee the Army Council have been able to adopt in view of the exigencies of the finance of this year. I now turn to the Territorial Force, the point on which there has been the most criticism in the past year. The numbers of the Territorial Force are, as I anticipated last year, still far below the establishment, but I am glad to say not so much below the establishment, by a long way, as we then anticipated and feared. The numbers are, approximately, 56,000 below establishment. On the other hand, from the number of terminations of engagements falling in each year, we did anticipate a considerably greater fall in strength. The fact that we are better situated than I had hoped is due to the remarkable success of recruiting this year. We have had the best recruiting we have ever had since the force started. We have enlisted no fewer than 67,000 men in the year compared with last year, which I then said was the best since the start—57,000, compared with much smaller figures in the forty thousands and fifty thousands of the preceding years. In fact recruiting has been brilliant, indeed, booming for the Territorial Force during the past year, and more especially in the last few months. A deputation of very eminent gentlemen who have given their time and trouble to this matter, waited upon the Prime Minister only a week or two ago, and he then gave certain figures showing that recruiting had been good. Since that time the result has been more encouraging, and I am glad to tell the Committee that since 1st October of last year there has been an actual gain in strength of about 10,500, and in the months of January and February of this year alone, there has been a gain in strength of 7,111 men to the Territorial Force.
How does that compare with the year before?
Do you mean increase since the 1st of October?
I mean the actual increase of strength as compared with last year.
With regard to recruiting, it is 67,000 this year, as compared with 57,000 last year. With regard to the gain in strength, which, of course, depends not only upon the recruits but upon the re-engagements, and especially upon the number of men whose term has expired, the gain is far greater, both since the 1st October and the two months of January and February of this year—7,111 and 10,500. But here I want to enter my caveat. These figures are highly encouraging, but I would not ask the House to assume that they are so encouraging as they seem. I myself, who have had to watch these figures very closely during the past three years, have been surprised at the very rapid increase in strength. I am persuaded that a great many men whose time is up must have avoided resigning from a sense of loyalty to the force, but who will resign before very long. I think we must anticipate a very real increase in the number of men leaving the Colours very soon. I have no proof of it, but my expert advisers tell me that there must be some reason for this, and I think it is that the men who have served loyally and well for four years are determined not to leave us at a critical time, and are holding on as long as they can; but their time will soon come to an end, and, therefore, it would be a mistake to suppose that we can now rest on our oars, and be sure that we are going to get 67,000 every year, and that the force will soon be up to full strength. We must expect a considerable drop in the near future unless extra efforts are made.
I come to the other main reason for the increase in the Estimates of this year, and that is the extra provision I have made to deal with the Territorial Force shortage. The total sum is about £200,000. A very remarkable memorandum was given to me for submission to the Prime Minister last Session, signed by a very large number of Members of the Liberal and Labour parties, and I am personally informed that the Irish party and the Members of the Conservative party would have signed it had they been asked. It suggested that we should pay the insurance contributions for the whole year, both for employers and for their men in the Territorial Force. The more one considered that particular solution of the question the more one saw very grave dangers in the way of adopting it.
I had special inquiries made from many county associations, and it appeared that a great many employers of labour were not particularly anxious to receive this boon. Some were in favour of it and some against. Those who were against it thought it was too small a matter. They said they were glad enough to let their men go, and they did not want to be paid for it. Therefore, on the whole, it seemed to us wise that we should give all the money we had available for this purpose—having decided what it was reasonable to provide—to the men, and let them make their bargain with the employers. Therefore we have decided to give every man who fulfils the proper conditions, and who attends camp for fifteen days, a round sum at the end of his training.
Does that include non-commissioned officers?
It includes every man of all ranks. It is a pound per head, the simple round pound, for every man who attends the fifteen days. I am glad the hon. Gentleman interrupts me, because it enables me to explain why we give the same sum to the sergeant with his high pay, and to the private soldier with his comparatively low pay. The reason is this. We do not want to make the Territorial Force into what I may call a mercenary force. It is wholly remote from the ideals of its conception that gain should form part of it, but on inquiry we did find that in almost all cases the men suffered real pecuniary loss from attending the fifteen days. We do not ask that any man should make money out of belonging to the Territorial Force, but we do ask that as far as possible he should not suffer in pocket. We think on the whole that this grant of £1 to the man who attends fifteen days, although of course it will not make up the loss which a highly paid man must suffer owing to the loss of two full weeks of his employment, will still prevent the great majority of the men from being actually out of pocket by their services to the State. I hope that the House will be good enough to vote this sum. I do believe, although it is not a solution of all the difficulties of the Territorial Force, that it will be found to be very acceptable to members of the Force. With the remainder of the money at my disposal for this purpose, I hope to make a great advance in the opportunities for instruction.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how the Yeomanry are treated?
In a Memorandum I have explained that the Yeomanry are to receive 30s, instead of £1.
They get no camp allowance now.
Everybody gets the round pound, except the Yeoman, who received a pound before as equitation allowance. It may be that that was not exactly the same thing. Some people said he should get nothing, and some people said he should get the whole thing, or £2 altogether, and it seemed to us not unreasonable to split the difference and to give 30s. I was saying that we proposed to devote the remainder of the money to greatly increasing the opportunities for instruction for non-commissioned officers, and, indeed, for the private soldier in the Territorial Force in learning the duties of their profession. I am not going into any details as to the advancement in efficiency of the Territorial Force. The figures were given by the Prime Minister to the deputation which waited upon him the other day, and I think they are sufficiently remarkable. They show, quite apart from the question of the actual value of the Territorial Force in the event of invasion, at a particular time and under circumstances under which it might occur, and to which I have asked the House not to devote their attention till the Prime Minister makes his statement, that there is a substantial and continued increase in efficiency, both in musketry, in camp attendance, and in general knowledge of their profession by the officers and men of the Territorial Force.
In conclusion, I would say that the increase in the number of officers of the Territorial Force has been to us a source of very great satisfaction. It has been continuous, and I think there is every prospect that it will continue. That, is due to various causes, and partly to the increased provision which the House was good enough to vote last year for the Outfit Allowance, but in large measure, no doubt, owing to the increase in the Officers' Training Corps, and to the increased interest taken in the. Territorial Force by our great Universities such as Oxford and Cambridge. Let us hope that that one day Dublin University and the other Irish Universities will have the opportunity of sharing to the full in this matter. The Welsh and Scottish Universities already share to the full in it, and also our public schools, and not only schools like Eton and Harrow, but much smaller schools which give us great numbers of excellent Officers' Training Corps, as they are called, and in some cases large numbers of officers to the Territorial Force, and, indeed, to the Special Reserve and to the Regular Army also.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what provision there has been for rifle ranges?
I have referred to the different rifle ranges we have been able to provide. This year we have devoted a very considerable sum to increased rifle ranges, and the increase of accommodation is considerable, but it is nothing like enough yet, and further sums are required and will be required in order to make good this very real deficiency in our military equipment. That, however, raises a very wide question, with which I would sooner not deal with now, with regard to how it is possible to secure real rifle efficiency in a crowded country, and that is a question which I should be very glad to discuss at the proper time; but, perhaps, as I have detained the Committee at such length already and have other things to say, it is enough for me to add now that I fully realise the importance of the point, and that provision has been made and that further provision will be made. I may be told, "You have satisfactorily accounted for the shortage in the Regular Army by showing that there is an increase in the numbers of the Regular Reserve. You have told us that the Special Reserve is 13,090 short of establishment, and that the Territorial Force is 56,000 short of establishment, and you give reasons for saying that the Territorial Force recruiting is buoyant, but how do we stand, "you may ask, "if you take the test you yourself laid down, supposing you had immediate war?" Our position is really more favourable than it was last year—in fact, it is far more favourable. Last year I ventured to suggest that the overwhelming proportion of the men who had left the Territorial Force and, indeed, other branches of the Army, would come forward in the hour of need to help us, and I was asked from the benches opposite, "What proof have you of that?" and I could only say that that was the belief of myself and of the other members of the Army Council who gave-special attention to this matter.
I am glad to say we have more to go on now. We had then some 160,000 men in the National Reserve, and we now have 217,000 at the date of the last Return I saw. A great many of those, of course, are older men, and men who are properly called veterans, and it will be remembered this was first called the Veterans' Reserve. We introduced a scheme of classification. We asked those who were ready to undertake an honourable obligation to come up and serve His Majesty in the hour of national emergency to sign a document. I am glad to say that, with the exception of London, and that for various reasons which I need not give, and especially the fact that Sir John Steevens, who has been the life and soul of the movement, has been comandeered by the Government for other work, the results have been most gratifying. Of those who have undertaken to serve in any part of the world when required in time of national emergency there are no fewer than 13,000, according to the last Return, and that number must now be considerably increased, as that Return is already several weeks old. When we reflect that the Special Reserve is 13,000 under strength, and that the number of men in the National Reserve, of whom we could say nothing definite last year, and who now say they will serve in any part of the world in time of war is also 13,000, I think the House may have reason to congratulate itself that we have so many patriotic men who, having served the country their full term, are prepared to come forward in the time of national emergency and serve in any part of the world without fee or reward of any kind in the meantime—though, of course, they will receive some emolument when the time comes—except for the payment from the Territorial Force Association, which administers a grant of 10s. per man.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what are the ages of the men in the National Reserve?
We know exactly what the ages are, and very definite restrictions are laid down with regard to those in Class I.—that is, the 13,000. All of them are medically examined, and all of them must be under a minimum age—for the moment I forget what it is, but I think it is about forty years of age. It has varied often in making the classification. The first suggestion was forty-five years, and the next was thirty-eight, and I think it now stands at forty-two, and is finally settled at that. The 13,000 are all under forty-two, and they have all been medically examined. Of those who have undertaken to serve within these islands—that is to say, who have taken the Class II. obligation—the number is 45,000. I said just now that the Territorial Force was 56,000 deficient in numbers. Towards that deficiency we now have that 45,000, so that on the score of numbers alone there is no reason why the House should be concerned for the state of the British Army, either with regard to the Regulars, Special Reserve, or Territorial Force—that is, for the purposes of immediate war. We stand well for the purposes of immediate war on any basis which you may consider, but if I am asked whether I am satisfied that a sufficient proportion of the people of this country, and especially the well-to-do, are ready to serve their country in time of need, I answer, "I am not." I do think it a deplorable thing that there should be men who receive everything they can get from the State—and I refer now only to the well-to-do—and who do nothing to serve it. I believe that it ought to be regarded as a disgrace to any man who has gained so much from the power and prestige of this country, in wealth and comfort and happiness, if he does not give some of his time and some of his leisure to the service of the State, and his ability and his capacity. With regard to the others, less fortunately situated, the matter is different. They have to make great sacrifices in order to serve in any of the Forces of the Crown, unless they elect to join the Regular Army.
5.0 P.M.
I do not propose now, and I hope I may be forgiven for not going into the great question of Compulsory versus Voluntary Service. I think that can be better dealt with when we are not making what I may call a business survey of what we get for our money in the Army Estimates, but when we have before as the wider issue of the Army and the Navy, and Imperial defence as a whole. I turn to one or two other subjects with which I must deal. I am certain the Army is right on mobilisation. I may be told. "Yes, right perhaps in men, and no doubt in guns, rifles, and ammunition—we do not dispute that, but what about the horses?" I do not wish to weary the House with figures, but I think it is well to clear up some of the absurd misapprehensions which have arisen with regard to our horse supply.
Suppose we went to war to-morrow, we should want 102,000 horses of the various classes. During the last three years we have carried out a most careful survey of the horses of those classes actually available. I have no doubt whatever that we know within a very small margin just exactly what there is available. We want 102,000, and we have available 375,000, leaving a surplus of 273,000.
Sound horses?
Are they not chiefly of the heavier type?
They are sound horses; those only are counted. The total horse population is far greater than 375,000. The hon. Member (Mr. Meysey-Thompson) asks whether they are not chiefly of the heavier type. I was going to deal with that. It might be said, "We do not dispute that you want 102,000, and that you have 375,000, but all your surplus is of one type, and you have a shortage in the others." That is not so. We have a surplus in every class, but in the heavier type we have the greatest surplus. The fact of the matter is that those who have talked about this question—I do not mean in this House, where all the discussion has been upon sound lines, and has been of the greatest assistance to the War Office, but irresponsible people outside—have, if I may speak quite frankly, talked a great deal of nonsense. They do not seem to understand that when it comes to war, and we use the opportunity which Parliament was good enough to give us two years ago under the Army Act, we have got any number of horses for the immediate purposes of war, and a large surplus over. But in some particular classes, although we have a surplus, we have not anything like a big enough margin. The way to solve this problem, I am persuaded, is not to start great breeding establishments, as some suggest, the cost of which is enormous, and which might really do us far less good than relying upon the demand, not so much of ourselves as of the rest of the world which now comes here to buy horses. The solution is in seeing that the horses we breed are the best of their type.
If I may explain, all Armies, in every country, are faced with this problem. The demand for horses for civil life decreases most rapidly; the demand for horses for military purposes decreases comparatively slowly. How are we going to meet that difficulty? I would suggest that as the total number of horses falls the proportion of those that remain fit for military purposes—which, in fact, means horses that are fit, well, strong, and in good condition—should increase in an even greater ratio, so that for many a long year to come the total number available for military purposes shall be greater than before. General Birkbeck, who has given a very special study to this question, is of opinion that we can solve the problem on these lines. I agree with him. I have every hope that the Board of Agriculture will co-operate with us in this scheme. Be it observed that any idea that the foreigner is buying our best horses, and so depleting our supply, is really most remote from a true appreciation of the situation as it stands. It is the very fact that our horses here, and especially in Ireland, are so good, and that the foreigner in greater and greater proportion comes to us for his horses, which has enabled us to be in the good position that we are. The more the foreigner comes to us to buy horses, the better for us. We must encourage him to come, and to buy more and more. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I notice that hon. Gentlemen opposite think that I am carrying the matter too far. I assure them, if they will consider this matter—and, indeed, this, above all other questions, is not a party question—if they will accept my invitation, which I give them here and now, to come to the War Office, where a room shall be provided for them, where they can meet General Birkbeck—I refer especially to those hon. Gentlemen who breed horses—I think they will agree, when they have had this interview, that it is just because the foreigner comes to buy our horses that we are likely to be better situated in regard to horse supply in years to come. I hope that hon. Gentlemen, who have given me a great deal of assistance in this matter in the past, will accept this invitation.
Between what ages were these 375,000 horses?
I could not say offhand. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the census was first taken by the police, and was very imperfect. Then we had the census checked by military officers. That was still imperfect. Then we put on 500 military officers, who have made a complete survey of the horses; and we have now, I think, seventy-five full-time officers keeping it up to date. Their sole duty is to tell us the precise number of horses of military age and fit for military service. If I were asked to go into the qualifications of the 375,000 horses it would take too long, but I am anxious to give the hon. and learned Gentleman the fullest information, and I hope that he will be one of those who will come to the War Office and confer with General Birkbeck on the problem.
With regard to wireless telegraphy, we were very much behind other nations in its application to the Regular Army. A Committee was appointed to investigate this matter, with my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Sir H. Norman) as Chairman, together with, not only officers of the General Staff and others, but also persons from outside fully conversant with the possibilities of wireless telegraphy. This Committee gave us a most valuable Report, and we hope to be able to adopt the whole, or nearly the whole, of it. A good deal has already been done, and I believe that our Expeditionary Force will be as well—or, indeed, better—equipped than any corresponding force with this new and vital need—wireless telegraphy.
Now with regard to aviation. I have asked the House to sanction a very large Estimate indeed—£1,000,000—for aviation. It is a very large sum; it is much larger than was anticipated. I may be asked, "Why £1,000,000? Why so much, and what do you propose to do with it?" The provision of aircraft is the most expensive thing that an Army has ever had to face. I was speaking to the War Minister of a great neighbouring Power not long ago, and he said to me, "Beware of aviation; it eats up money." It does eat up money. In order that it should be safe it has got to be very expensive. Only the other day I said that we had a remarkable record of freedom from accidents in the Military Wing. Since I last addressed the House, there has been one accident of a fatal character. In the memorandum which I have circulated I thought it right to refer to the comparative immunity from fatal accidents. But with every care there must be accidents. By an unhappy coincidence, on the very morning of the day on which I am presenting these Estimates to the House, another brave young officer loses his life, this time again, not in the Military Wing, but under tuition on Salisbury Plain. I have not yet full details of the cause of the accident, which, of course, will be most carefully investigated; but that this brilliant young officer lost his life in the service of his country as fully as though he had died on the field of battle no one will deny.
It must be a hazardous business, but it can be made less hazardous by the provision of money, and in that the House has been most generous. I acknowledge with gratitude that the House has never refused to Vote any sum, however large, for this vital service of the State. The fact that our immunity from accidents has, in the past, been so much greater than in the case of other countries, is, perhaps, a matter upon which we may fairly congratulate ourselves, and on which I wish to make my acknowledgments to the House and to the Exchequer which provided the money. We require this large sum because, although our Army is small, it must be most efficient. I was talking, about a year ago, to one of the foremost of the combatants in what is known as the Balkan war. He drew with pencil and paper a graphic picture of the great events which opened that war. He was then under no illusion as to the ultimate result. While we here were thinking that the face of it was to be changed, he realised that the, chance had been missed. Having drawn me a picture of the situation of the opposing Armies, where he thought they were, and where they actually were, he said bitterly to me, "Had we had one single aeroplane, the -whole history of Europe would have been altered." Speaking now with the knowledge that we have, there can be no doubt that what he said was literally and entirely true. One aeroplane, and they had not got it. It was not because they had not got an aeroplane, or had not got the men; they had got several aeroplanes, and several men, but they had not got the organisation, and the numbers to ensure that the aeroplane and the man should be there at the time. You cannot improvise an Air Service. We have been laboriously building it up now for more than two years. I honestly believe the British Army has now got it, and that it will continue to have it. So long as it has men who are determined to make any sacrifice in order to ensure that we shall not fall behind in quality —I say nothing for the moment as; to quantity—that is another question—in this great problem of mastering the air for the purposes of war. We, I hope, shall never be able to say that had we had one single aeroplane our history might have been altered. We have now a very good Air Service. I do not wish to go into details in the matter, as I went into it at some length on the Supplementary Estimates the other day. I would like to take only one little point to show what a mistake it is to think that we are a very long way behind other people in this matter. Reference was made in Debate by an hon. Member opposite as to a fund opened in Germany, subscribed from private sources, to provide money for aviation. Reference was also made to an article in the "Times" showing the considerable sum that was allocated to people who had flown for one hour and to others who had flown for one hour with a passenger. The inference was drawn by the speaker, and indeed by others who followed, that we could not do anything of the kind. This article was read by the officer commanding one of our squadrons, who upon it wrote a letter to General Henderson as follows:—
beautiful grass field suitable for landing. Perhaps you are in a machine going at 70 miles or, it may be, 50 miles an hour, and just as you approach what seems to be your good landing, you find that for purposes of agriculture a barbed wire fence has been spread across the middle of the field. It may be that the fact that the barbed wire fence is there forces the airman again to rise, and may cause an accident, and it may be—though no doubt when our men become more expert this will be less the case—it may be the cause of death, as it has been in the past. If there are those who can help us in this matter, and they will send particulars to me, we will send down officers to choose landing places and to choose the best method of indicating where those landing places are. I hope there will be no expense to the landowner or the farmer. By the means I have suggested we shall be able to secure a greater measure of safety to those who navigate in the air our difficult and somewhat dangerous country.
What about the live stock?
My hon. Friend inquires, "What about the live stock?" I had a meeting of squadron commanders the other day, and I put that point to them, and they said—I will repeat it in their own words—" Oh, we will chance the cows." [Laughter.] That may be taken in two ways. There is the cow to consider and also the airman. In all seriousness, I would suggest that it would be possible for a large number of landing places to be arranged for, and though I cannot suggest that these places should be permanently kept free of live stock, when you are landing, if there is any stock in the field, it is very seldom difficult to avoid them. What I would suggest is that we want landing places which shall not be ploughed or cut across with fences without due notice to us.
What sort of acreage does the right hon. Gentleman want for a landing place?
It is very hard to say in acres; it all depends upon the shape of the field. You may say the bigger the better, but an 80-acre field is an admirable landing ground.
There are very few in the country.
An 80-acre field is wholly admirable. A 50-acre field has been suggested to me! May I put it this way? I have myself landed on several occasions in a 30-acre field. While a 30-acre field is quite enough for ordinary purposes, provided that you have no telegraph posts on one side, or high trees on one or more sides, it depends very greatly upon the type of aeroplane—how long it takes to pull up. It must always be remembered that if the aeroplane has got up a speed of 50 miles an hour, that the moment the airman sees the tops of hedges it is desirable that he should have the biggest space possible available, so that he may be able to go, if necessary, a hundred or more yards beyond before pulling up. I hope I have given the House a clear idea as to the kind of field we want. We shall be glad to get big ones, and we should like to get small ones, we shall be thankful for any. Before I sit down there is one point I must deal with, and that is reference to armaments. I have dealt with the horses and the men, and the Air Service; now I want to deal with the weapons. With regard to the Artillery, various minor improvements have been made since I last spoke. No great outstanding improvements have been possible. Our field gun, as compared with that of France and Germany, is a very good gun. In some respects it is better and in some respects inferior. The Master-General of Ordnance drew up for me a memorandum of some length comparing our gun with that of foreign Powers. It would appear that our own, taking it as a whole, need not fear comparison. When all the various problems awhich are to be faced in this matter are considered, it may be that it is capable of considerable improvement—as are other guns. I am, however, advised that it would not be possible to go further than we have gone without an entirely new equipment, and I do not think that any Government would be of opinion that the present was the proper time to start upon a new Artillery equipment.
How long would it take?
When the time does come, I think we can promise that we shall not be behindhand.
How long would it take to re-equip the Artillery?
I purposely avoided paying any attention to the question of my hon. Friend, and, if he will allow me, I will continue to do so, for that is one of the things which are never made public. There is the other point with regard to the rifle. As the House knows, expensive experiments were carried out with the 76 rifle last year. In many respects the rifle showed remarkably good results, though not in all. We did not think it would in all. It appears that in this weapon we have very nearly reached the limit at present—I say advisedly "at present"—of the flat trajectory and high-muzzle velocity. I think it likely that in this, as in other countries, advance will be sought in other directions. What we must see to is that, when that advance comes, we are at the front and not behindhand. Adequate arrangements have been made to ensure that that shall be so. I have given such information as I can to the House on the subject of these Estimates. I hope and believe that the House will now proceed to pass them, so that by these means we may secure the safety of our country, and I hope, in the long run, the contentment of the private soldier.
I shall not attempt to follow the right hon. Gentleman over the whole, or anything like the whole, of the very wide area which he has covered—for two reasons: The one is out of consideration for the House, and also because I have been called upon somewhat unexpectedly to take part in this Debate. I do not profess to be as familiar with the details of many of the questions which have been dealt with as one ought to be, to be able to deal with them in a satisfactory Way. I am anxious really to confine the greater portion of my remarks to dealing with the earlier part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in which he dealt with finance. Before coming to that I must refer very briefly to one or two specific points which he raised in his speech. I will pass away from these as quickly as possible, because there will be other opportunities in the next few days to deal with the subject, and I know there are hon. Members who wish to raise special points, and will do so more efficiently than I can hope to do. The first point of detail on which I wish to touch is that of recruiting. I am not going to deal with the question of the shortage of numbers, because I think we shall have a special. Debate on that matter, probably tomorrow, on the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby. But with regard to the question of recruiting, that is probably the most immediately pressing problem with which the War Office has to deal at the present time. We know the right hon. Gentleman has taken a step, and a remarkable step, in dealing with the emergency, but he has not told us very much about what he is doing. I think we may say that we generally approve of his scheme of advertising the Army, although I am sorry to hear that the results have not been more satisfactory up to the present time. He told us how many men he had got, but he did not tell us how much he spent in getting them. I should like to know how much each of these extra men has cost by way of advertising. The general idea of advertising is undoubtedly sound because of the popular lack of knowledge about the Army, and the very great ignorance which has obtained in the country up to this time is not only absurd, but really inexcusable. Perhaps I may say that in my opinion nearly the whole secret of success in this matter of recruiting is, by some means or other, to get the British mother upon your side. She is, at any rate, in country districts, the determining arbiter with regard to the supply of recruits, and I have often felt that there has been no systematic, proper effort made to enlist the goodwill of the British mother on behalf of the needs of the Army.
The right hon. Gentleman said, and I think rightly, that the second key to the situation is the question of after employment, and I am very glad to know that that matter has been taken up by an influential Committee, because I think, until it is satisfactorily settled, you never can get the best class of recruits, particularly in times of prosperity. I had the opportunity, very largely owing to the right hon. Gentleman's courtesy, of seeing a good deal of the Army in the recent great manœuvres, and one thing that interested me above everything else was the splendid behaviour of the men and the extremely cordial relations which existed between them and the inhabitants of the country side wherever they went. That, of course, helps enormously in the way of recruiting, and I think there is good reason to feel that the old prejudice which used to exist against the Army is rapidly passing away, and I think that is very largely due to the introduction of good character certificates, which are required of men who wish to join. I pass from that to the second point of detail with which I wish to deal, that is the question of the supply of officers, and particularly the new scheme of pay. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about this new idea of promotion from the ranks; I hope he is not suggesting for a moment that there is any difference of opinion about that in any quarter of the House. The idea of drawing more largely upon the ranks for officers meets with the approval, I believe, of everybody: the only question is, how it can be most efficiently carried out. It is obvious something has to be done, in view of the very serious shortage of officers in case of mobilisation—I do not know the exact figures—but I think we are 4,000 officers short in case of mobilisation.
The only criticism I wish to pass upon the right hon. Gentleman's proposal at present is that I do not think what he is proposing in the way of extra expenditure goes really far enough: it is only a pill to cure an earthquake. He is not holding out sufficient inducement at the lower end; he has not only to get the British mother on his side, but the British father, who holds the purse string; to get a larger supply of young officers who are prepared to adopt the military profession and go into Sandhurst. One of the proposals, no doubt, affects a long needed amelioration in the financial position of senior officers. I do not think he meets the need at the lower end, and I think there is a certain real injustice in the new proposal with regard to the drawing of officers from the ranks, because what the right hon. Gentleman is really doing is to encourage the getting into the Army eventually of the Sandhurst failures, and he is giving very little encouragement to the best class of non-commissioned officers upon whom he wishes specially to draw. The right hon. Gentleman sees the need, but as I understand the limit of age at which these officers are to be taken from the ranks is between twenty-one and twenty-three, and that at once cuts out nearly all the best of the sergeants and relegates them to the position of having the privilege of training young gentlemen who failed in Sandhurst and drawing in through the ranks non-commissioned' officers to pass over the heads of those sergeants, and, as a result, I am not at all' surprised that there is no enthusiasm whatever amongst the sergeants of the Army for this particular proposal of commissions from the ranks. I think that is a point worthy of consideration.
The next point of detail to which I wish to come is with regard to the Special Reserves, and the right hon. Gentleman there, I think, made astonishing admissions. He told us—naturally he had to be very tender in dealing with the point—that his predecessor's plan with regard to the Special Reserve had proved to be impracticable. These were not the words he used, but he spoke of the practical breakdown of the Special Reserve for the purposes for which it had been intended, and lie said, on the other hand, it is proving very useful as a kind of back-door for recruits to come into the Army. What a falling off from Lord Haldane's glowing anticipations when he introduced the Special Service scheme! I do not want to go further with that now, because I understand the hon. Gentleman opposite who presided over the Special Committee is going to confide to the House what were the conclusions of that Committee, and, what is far more important, what the Government propose to do about it, and until we have that information there is no real good to go further.
I shall defer what I have to say about the Territorial Army until the Territorial Vote comes up. I now come to the earlier portion of the right hon. Gentleman's speech in which he dealt, firstly, with the question of the finance of these Estimates. In the opening passages of the right hon. Gentleman's Annual Memorandum, and again in his speech, he indulges in a long drawn out financial apology for the size of the Estimates, and, in order apparently to smooth their passage through the House, he draws a number of comparisons with the expenditure in previous years. In my view these apologies are entirely ineffective, and in many respects objectionable, and incidentally, as far as I can study the figures, they are totally inaccurate—I do not mean they are intentionally inaccurate—but they are obviously misleading for this reason, that in comparing what he calls the effective cost of the Army at the present time and in previous years he compares what were the Estimates for any given year, instead of what was the actual expenditure on the Army in that year, with the result that he produces figures that bear no relation whatever to what was the comparative effective cost of the Army. I think he will find that is so if he examines the figures; for example, he states that in 1907–8 there was a clear reduction of over £2,000,000 in the Estimates. That is true of the Estimates, but there was nothing like that reduction in the actual cost of the Army; the real reduction was a little over £1,250,000. Then he tells us, again, in his opening paragraph, that the effective cost of the Army to-day is nearly £2,500,000 less than in 1905–6; he is there comparing something not with the real cost of the Army in 1905–6 but with the original Estimates, and as a result he will find, I think, that so far from the difference being £2,500,000 it is only a little over £1,250,000, and I think that in that one particular he is over £1,000,000 out. And there is a similar caser with regard to the Estimates for 1907–8. So far from the effective cost of the Army being actually less than it was then, he will find it is something like £67,000 more. I think in these cases there is no useful object served in comparing actual cost with Estimates never required. I do not think that these calculations were worth making in any case. The moral to be drawn from them is, that the right hon. Gentleman is inspired in this matter with the desire to apologise for any occasion upon? which the mystic normal of £28,000,000 has been ever exceeded.
I have often wondered, and I have never been able to find out, what possible virtue there can be in this particular figure of £28,000,000 for the Army Estimates. The right hon. Gentleman admits that the price of everything has gone up, but still the cost of the Army must be kept the same or he must apologise for the fact. His Estimates have only been kept within this arbitrary and illogical figure by cutting down both the Regular and Auxiliary Forces, and that is really one of the constant complaints which we have to make against the whole military policy of the Government. They seem to have adopted as the basic principle of their policy that you must spend a fixed sum of £28,000,000 for the Army, and that that amount must on no account be materially exceeded, and I must admit that they have in past years displayed extraordinary misplaced ingenuity in manipulating the Army in such a way as to make out that it cost no more than that particular sum. They have periodically laid it on the financial bed of Procrustes and cut it down to fit. Having done that, they do not tell us why. These manipulations are obviously based upon financial exigency, and are never explained or justified by any reference whatever to national or stragetic needs. We never have been able to get any answer to the inquiry which we repeatedly made in the past years: How it is that whilst the military requirements of the Empire cannot possibly be less than they were eight years ago, still the Army, greatly reduced in strength, is considered to be equally adequate to our needs? The right hon. Gentleman's chief concern appears to be to show that the cost of the Army remains the same, and, having said that, he seemed to think he had completely justified his position. But why is there this total divorce between military expenditure and national and strategic requirements which specially disturbs our mind? We have had no intelligible explanation of it from the right hon. Gentleman or his predecessors. Our anxiety in this matter is increased when we see that of the limited sum available more and more as the years go on is being expended upon that portion of our military forces which is the least valuable for purposes of war, and this is being done at the expense of our small professional Army, which is the only thing we have to rely upon with any certainty in the case of serious warfare.
It is no good pretending—I do not think the right hon. Gentleman will pretend—that at the present time, and at its present strength, the condition of our military forces, in view of the shortage of numbers, does not cause grave anxiety not only to us, but to the right hon. Gentleman and to the Government. I do not wish to go into this question of numbers to-day, because we shall have a further opportunity upon the Resolution to be debated to-morrow. Although there is this acknowledged and serious dwindling in strength, our national and strategic requirements have certainly not decreased. The right hon. Gentleman has established this afternoon to his own satisfaction that we have no reason to fear what he calls a "bolt from the blue"—that is to say, an attack upon this country in time of peace when the Regular Army was at home. I am not disposed to contest that. That is not my point. There has been no suggestion from the Government, so far as I know, that we do not still need for Imperial purposes at all time in the first place to maintain an Expeditionary Force of 162,000 men, a force which was designed by its creator, Lord Haldane, to use his own words— known military problem. That, however, is the figure laid down by the Government, and for the purpose of this argument I will leave it at that The second requirement which, so far as I know, has not been altered, is that we should have at all times and under all circumstances here in this country a Home Defence Force which, in the language of the Prime Minister in the Debate of July, 1909— it is a very ingenious one, that as long as we can keep a force here capable of dealing with a maximum raid of 70,000 men, then we are safe, because no larger force could possibly skip past the Navy.
That is the ingenious theory that has been repeatedly laid down. Personally, after our experience of the manœuvres during the last two years, I cannot help feeling grave doubts as to what would happen if those 70,000 men came, not in one compact body which might more easily be dealt with, but in three or four simultaneous and widely scattered bodies of a size and kind that successfully raided the Humber, Newcastle, and the East Coast during the manœuvres of the last two years. I know there is a tendency on the part of Government apologists to somewhat minimise raids of that description, and they say, "After all, they are not serious invasions; they are not blows at the heart, and need not be taken too seriously." Yes, Sir, it is one thing for the Government which is established in London to talk about a blow at the heart, and to say that nothing but that is really a very serious danger to this country, but that does not bring much comfort to the large and important communities in those parts of the country, who, by their geographical position, are necessarily exposed to perils of that kind, and they will demand, and lightly demand, adequate protection against the sort of raids which were made last summer. No one in their senses would deny that in time of actual war it would be necessary for the central Government to stop its ears against local clamour of any sort or kind, if by detaching forces to preserve the safety of Hull or Newcastle they would uncover the heart of the Empire and? expose it to a deadly blow. That is in time of war. But that does not justify the Government, after the repeated and convincing warnings that it has had from operations designed and carried out by itself, whilst time remains, and whilst we are at peace, from giving adequate protection to those exposed communities. Therefore, I dissent altogether from this implied policy, that it is not the Government's duty to maintain a sufficient force for Home defence in this country to deal promptly and decisively with the very serious kinds of raids which have been proved to be possible during the last few years.
6.0 P.M.
Even if the Government's theory were sound, we still say that the Home Defence Army the Government has got is not even o capable of dealing, in the absence of the whole of the Expeditionary Force, with the invasion of 70,000 men which the Defence Committee, not only in its previous investigations, but in the investigations just concluded, has admitted might possibly arrive in this country. We have argued that point frequently in previous years, and if our case was strong then it is certainly not less strong now, when our numbers, both in the Regular Forces and of our Territorial Force and our Spedal Reserve are less than they were. The right hon. Gentleman gave us figures showing that they were short, and therefore the risk, whatever it was, has been accentuated, and the Government has announced no step to meet it. This brings me to what is the main point I wish to make in connection with this matter, and it is that the Government went out of its way to tell us again and again last year that the whole Expeditionary Force would be permitted to leave these shores immediately in case of strategic requirements overseas arising, and whilst that was undoubtedly the position a year ago, and upon that assurance given by the Government in the most precise manner, our most vital oversea obligations are, and have been for a long time past, based, I now feel bound to ask whether there is any proof in the persistent rumours which have reached us. I am justified in referring to those rumours because the Government have refused to supply us with the facts in this Debate. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] Because the Prime Minister has himself within the last fortnight, whilst admitting that the Report of the Defence Committee on these matters has been drawn up as a unanimous Report, has refused to disclose it to the House in time for these discussions. Ho has told us that he will tell us at some future time. Now is the time. We ought to have it before we are called upon to pronounce upon the military preparations of the Government, and, in its absence, we are bound to proceed to a certain extent upon assumptions and upon such information as has reached our ears. I think we have a real cause of grievance against the Prime Minister in connection with this matter. The right hon. Gentleman himself admitted in the course of his speech that we were somewhat in a position of disadvantage in this particular discussion in not having this Report of the Defence Committee. I do feel that the action of the Prime Minister in this matter has been a slight upon the House of Commons.
I should be sorry if the hon. Gentleman went on under a misapprehension. I, of course, sympathise with his view that we ought to be able to discuss national defence as a whole, but, when he says that the Prime Minister is to be blamed because he has not laid the Report of the Sub-committee before the House, I must say that he is under a complete misapprehension of the facts. It is impossible for the Prime Minister to lay that Report before it is finally concluded. The matter has not yet been finally concluded, and there has therefore been no discourtesy on the part of the Prime Minister.
That is not the point. The Prime Minister told us that the Committee had agreed upon a unanimous Report.
Practically.
Upon what point?
Upon the one point that they were called upon to examine, which was the problem of invasion. I say that it is making a farce of these Debates. It is a farce that the House of Commons should be called upon to pronounce upon the adequacy or inadequacy of the Government's military preparations without the fundamental facts which would alone enable us to form a fair opinion upon those proposals. I feel sure that the Government could, if they had chosen have made an opportunity to disclose this matter to the House, instead of waiting until these Debates are over, until the Army and Navy Estimates are over, and then at some future period of the Session, if we ever reach it, telling us at a time when the Estimates have been passed, and when any discussion must be purely academic. In the absence of those fundamental facts, I am bound to say that the inference from the present position, as the possible invading force has been again pronounced by the Defence Committee to be the same as it was before, and as the Home Defence Army is less than it was before, is that the only adjustment possible in this particular problem is that either the Expeditionary Force itself should be reduced or that a portion of it should be held back in these islands until such time as the Territorial Army is considered sufficiently trained and equipped to deal with the situation alone. That is the only inference we can draw, and, if that is the Government's policy, if their policy now is to hold back a portion of the Expeditionary Force so that the whole force cannot proceed instantly oversea whenever and wherever it is required, then I say that change is fraught with such peril, not only to our position as a world power, but to the security of the whole Empire, that we should feel bound to fight it tooth and nail.
Apart from all other considerations and obligations, what could be more grotesque than to maintain an Expeditionary Force the whole of which cannot, if necessary, go upon an expedition? The War Office boasts, and boasts with good justice, I think, that as a result of their policy during the last few years the mobilisation of the Expeditionary Force, its equipment in all essentials, has been enormously improved, and has been keyed up to a point where I believe the right hon. Gentleman is justified in saying that theoretically the whole of it might be dispatched almost at a moment's notice. I should be the last to deny that an enormous improvement in that respect has been effected. What is the use of that? What is the use of doing; that if, at the same time there should be any suggestion or any pressure even brought to bear upon the Government to make them keep behind, to hold back, a portion of this force, upon which so much labour and time has been spent to make it capable of immediate dispatch? I say that we are labouring under a great disadvantage in discussing this, after all, fundamental matter, because the informations which we ought to have received before we discussed these Estimates has not been vouchsafed us.
I do not blame the right hon. Gentleman. He is obviously not prepared on this-occasion to answer me "Yes" or "No." whether that is or is not the policy of the Government, or whether there has or has not been any change in this matter. He says that we must wait until the Prime Minister produces it. That does not satisfy us. I do not think that we ought to be satisfied with the position as it is. We know that the invading force remains the same. We know that the force which was designed to meet it is considerably less than it was, and I say that, in the absence of positive assurances from the Government, we are perfectly justified in drawing that very unhappy inference. It is still more unfortunate that this change, if it be a change, in the Government policy, should coincide with this substantial involuntary shrinking in our military Forces, and with the recently proved incapacity of the Fleet, at its present strength, to prevent serious raids upon our shores. Not only for these reasons, but because we do not believe that in any case the Government has made the preparation and provisions that are necessary to cope with the invasion which they themselves say is possible, an invasion by 70,000 men, we have said in the past, and we have to say again, to-day, that we consider that in this vital question of Home defence they have lamentably failed, that they are gambling with national safety, and that it is our duty on every possible occasion and by every means in our power to protest against this sacrifice of national security upon the altar of financial exigencies. I end on that note, because the right hon. Gentleman began on it.
Oh, no.
I am in the recollection of the House, and I say that the right hon. Gentleman began not only his speech, but also his memorandum by apologising for the expenditure on the Army. I took his words down, and he said:—
"It may be said that the number of men is less, but that the money spent is more. That is a permanent feature of Army Estimates, and, unless you reduce the numbers, you cannot keep down the cost."
At once disclosing the fact that his one anxiety is to keep down the cost, and that he can only do that by reducing the number. Therefore I contend that I am justified in the remark that the Government is sacrificing national security upon the altar of false economy.
Before I refer to the general survey of the situation which was given by the Secretary of State, I should like to say a word or two about the remarks of the hon. Gentleman opposite as to the deficiencies in the Army. I do not share his feeling. He and his Friends are very fond of saying that our forces are in a bad state, and that the Empire is on the verge of dissolution. Taking the forces of the Empire as a whole, they are, in my opinion, in as good a state at the present time as they ever were.
The right hon. Gentleman has himself admitted a serious deficiency in numbers, and I was only referring to his statement.
I am quite aware of that, but deficiencies have not existed only at the present time. I do not wish to make this a party matter, but I want to go back ten years. There was at that time a different system in operation. Since 1907, as we all know, the plan for the auxiliary forces has been entirely altered. What was the position just about the year 1906? I will take what the hon. Member for Fareham himself said about recruiting for the forces at that time:—
"An important reason why recruiting has fallen off was that the Army had boon made unpopular."
This was after twenty years of administration by his own party.
"There has been a conspiracy in the Press, in Parliament, and in society to discredit and ridicule the Army. The Army has been abused and laughed at and both officers and men are tired of w hat they would call being humbugged about."
Here is what the Secretary of State for War at that time of the Unionist Government (Mr. Arnold-Forster), speaking in the House of Commons on 8th March, 1906, said as to the then condition of the Army:
"When he succeeded Mr. Brodrick he had to act at once, for the Army was disappearing; it was impossible to stand still and do nothing, or the Army would now have to be recreated from the beginning."
This was before the present Government took the matter in hand. Mr. Arnold-Forster, at Croydon, on January 9th, 1906, said:—
"When he entered the War Office he found that the whole of the British Infantry and the Artillery would have died out in two years under the then existing regime. Against the advice of his advisers he altered the terms of enlistment. He was commissioned when he came to the War Office to revolutionise the War Office and the whole of our commands throughout the United Kingdom and every one of our Possessions beyond. That was not child's play, but it had been done."
Let me turn for a moment to what the actual figures are. Suppose we take 1905. In that year the Regular Army strength was 203,828; in 1912–13—and I take the figures for that year because I have not been able to correct those for the present-year up to date—the strength of the Regular Army was 182,479.
They are practically the same.
Yes, for all substantial purposes of comparison they are practically the same. The Army Reserve in 1895 was 94,000. In 1912 it was 139,000. While the Regular Army and Reserve in 1905 was about 298,000, now they are about 321,000. The Militia was 88,000 odd, now it is 58,000 odd. The Volunteers and Yeomanry in 1905 numbered 275,000; last year they were 262,000. I am not going to dwell on the fact, which everybody knows, that the 275,000 Volunteers in 1905 were nothing in comparison, in regard to efficiency, equipment and organisation, with the present force of 262,000 men. You have to add to the numbers on both sides 75,000 for the Indian Army, which is the normal establishment maintained on that side of the sea. You have also to add to the figures for 1905 about 182,000, our then strength in the Navy; in 1912 that strength was 189,000. I find that in 1905 the actual figures, without any comment as to the nature of the particular units and their efficiency, was 934,000. In 1912 it was 912,000, giving an advantage of 21,000 to 1905. But can anybody allege, and, indeed, I challenge hon. Members opposite, or any critics outside, to say that the 912,000 of the British Empire forces throughout the world in 1912 are not infinitely better than the 934,000 in 1905? Take another point of view. Here is the establishment, exclusive of the Indian Army. In 1905 the Army establishment numbered 221,000—the strength was 203,000, and there was thus a deficit of 17,000. The establishment of the Army Reserve was 104,000—the actual strength was 94,000, and the deficit 9,000. The Militia Force showed a deficit of 39,000. The Volunteer and Yeomanry establishment in 1905 was 369,000—the actual strength was 275,000. Adding these figures together we find the actual establishment which hon. Member opposite thought sufficient and proper in those days was 829,000 men, and the actual strength with which they were perfectly satisfied was 670,000, so that there was a deficit of 159,000 men. I will now take the year of 1912. The establishment of the Army Reserve, the Special Reserve, the Militia Reserve, the Territorials and Yeomanry, and the Channel Islands totalled altogether 736,000 men with an actual strength of 648,000 men, so that there was a deficit as between strength and establishment of 88,000 men.
Anyone who looks at the figures will see that is largely due to the shortage in the numbers of the Territorial Army at the present time, a shortage due to causes which I would not hesitate to indicate, and which perhaps we may have another opportunity of discussing. There are causes which I believe could be removed to-morrow if certain organisations in the country would direct their attention to encouraging men to join this force instead of carrying on a propaganda against it. Taking the situation as a whole, what is the position at the present time? The Cardwell system, the Secretary for War has told us, has been successful, except in the provision of employment for men after they have left the Army. Does anyone suggest we are going to get rid of the Cardwell system and produce anything else? Is the party opposite going to suggest any other system than that of voluntary enlistment. It may be I am not entitled to argue that now, but I submit that we are entitled to know whether hon. Gentlemen opposite have any other suggestions at the present time for remedying the difficulty.
Everybody knows with regard to the Regular Army that during the present year there have been various reasons for the diminution in recruiting. There has been a large emigration, employment has been very plentiful, and there has been enormous recruiting going on in recent years for the Navy. Hon. Members may not be aware that in the year before last we took something like 20,000 recruits for the Navy, and last year we took 16,000, and that all adds to the total demand on the recruiting resources of this country. [An HON. MEMBER: "Boy recruits!"] Yes, they take boys and train them for the Navy. They do not recruit in any other way. They take a man for the whole of his life: they take him young arid train him up, and that is the reason why there has been a demand of that sort. Before I pass from this topic let me point out to the House in general that at the present moment our own resources of trained men in this country are very much greater than before. The National Reserve has been referred to; 13,000 or 14,000 of these men are of military age, under the age limit, perfectly willing to undertake service here or abroad, and there is a large extra number of them who would be extremely valuable if engaged on military service of some kind or another, either in the Regular or Territorial Force. They would, for instance, be extremely valuable in maintaining lines of communication. May I also remind hon. Members that we have a very much larger and very well trained force also available in case of necessity. We have been told that it is a force equal to meet any Army in the world. It has been admirably trained, equipped, and organised. It is a force which has even offered its services to this country. It is a force of 100,000 men in the North of Ulster. This, we have been told, and we believe it—I, at any rate am quite willing to believe it, for I have always advocated this—and I hope that the day will come when we shall have a North of Ireland force and a South of Ireland force included in the Territorial Force of this country. Permit that, and tomorrow your force will be full to overflowing. It is a trained force, and it confirms my opinion that the Territorial Force has much greater advantages, even though it may not use smuggled powder and wooden guns. Our present system is the Cardwell system, which I understand hon. Members opposite do not desire to reject. Here is a criticism which I should like to commend to the attention of the House:— promotion from the ranks is calculated to-do a great deal of good. Even within my own experience in the last month or two I have heard of cases where men are eagerly taking advantage of it. There is a little adjustment necessary, which the War Office is quite prepared to make, to meet the cases of those men serving ort the 1st January this year, who, under the reduced age limit, would not have been able to sit for examination under the scheme. I rather think the War Office might consider some of the criticisms of hon. Gentleman opposite in order to give men who are at present serving a chance of sitting for this examination. The result of putting the age limit at twenty-three rather prevents the class of men whom we want coming in. Not very many become non-commissioned officers in the Army at quite so early an age as that. What is wanted is to get the non-commissioned officer who has earned his position to go on further, and, if he is fit, to pass the examination to become a commissioned officer under the new system. I am sure that everybody will be glad to hear that means are to be adopted, after further consideration, by which these men will have am opportunity of further fitting themselves. One word with regard to the Special Reserve. Here, again, there is a shortage, but we may look forward to the Report of the Committee having some effect by rendering that force more attractive. I am perfectly certain hon. Member opposite will agree with me that if you ask the opinion of Special Reserve officers as to the efficiency and character of the present force as compared with the old Militia which existed prior to 1907, even with its reduced numbers, materiel, and men, it is of a far better class. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no!"] Hon. Members opposite differ, but I have sources of information—[HON. MEMBERS: "So have we!"] — and I have the opinions of officers of the force which bear out what I have stated. I do not propose to go into the question of the Territorials at the present time, because we may have another opportunity of discussing that. I desire to say one word on the question of the horse supply. I am strongly inclined to the opinion, and there are many people in the country who are coming to the opinion, that sooner or later we must have a compulsory horse census in this country. The latest form which is sent out to owners of horses does not give complete information as to the description and character of the horses. I saw one of these forms myself the other day, and it only asked whether the horses were draught or riding. That information is not complete. I know it all depends upon whether the owners of horses in this country will be prepared to accept compulsory registration as they have it in France or Germany. The system there gives no trouble to the owners. Each horse is registered, with its age and capacity, and a certificate is drawn up. If the horse is sold the certificate goes with the horse, and the place to which it goes is noted and sent to an official, with the result that they can trace every horse in the country. That is the system which sooner or later will have to be adopted in this country.
I am aware that it is more a matter for the agricultural community as a whole—farmers, landowners, and so on—to say whether they are willing to submit to it. There will no doubt be certain expenses, and those expenses the State might very well pay. In the case to which my attention was drawn the owner, who is a very loyal and patriotic subject, rather criticised the information he had to give for not being so complete as it ought to be. In that case four horses were returned as riding horses, and apparently would be treated by the War Office as serviceable, whereas the owner alleged that while two of them were excellent for hunting purposes, the other two might be ridden, but were not quite up to the same standard. It is true that the census does not mean that every horse is going to the Cavalry, because many a hunter or horse that can be ridden, as a rule, would be useful for ordinary draught work. I understand that 50 per cent. of the horses that are registered would certainly not be taken, and if an owner had four horses in his possession they would take two and leave him two. You would naturally take the two best and would pay for them. If hon. Members opposite would only help us to get compulsory horse registration throughout the country, I imagine that many of the prognostications of evil which we hear as to the disappearance of the horse would be dissipated by revealing the fact that there are enough horses in the country. If hon. Members would only help us, and would bring pressure to bear upon the authorities and the agricultural community, I have no doubt the matter can be remedied. I do not propose to deal with controversial matters, such as the numbers of the Territorial Force, but I suggest that taking a survey as a whole, subject to a slight shortage, which is a fluctuating matter, and can be done away with if we take the proper means, we need not sit down and say we have come to the end of our resources and that the British Empire is going to break up.
The hon. Member who has just sat down made a disparaging remark with regard to the old Militiaman, who exists no longer.
No.
We should feel much happier if we now had so large an Auxiliary Force, which was ready to go abroad the moment it was called upon, as we had at the beginning of the South African War. Those men were always disparaged and discouraged in peace, and I think the right hon. Gentleman himself will admit that disparaging remarks were made of them in the war which were wholly undeserved.
The hon. Member quite misapprehended me. What I meant to say was, taking the age and character generally and the training of the force, the present Special Reserve is a better and more efficient military instrument than the old force.
I am not speaking of the officers—they can speak for themselves—but for the men. It is the very expression "character" to which I take exception. It used to be thrown in a man's teeth that if he happened to be a Militiaman he was a bad character. I lived alongside Militiamen for long enough to know that they were sober, hard-working men. Most of them that I met were members of a union, and did very good service.
I was not speaking of the character of the men, qua character, because a man can fight even though he has a bad character from a moral point of view. What I said was that his character as a fighting unit was very much better now than that of the old Militiaman.
I should say that a man of thirty-five in good health, and with the esprit de corps which existed amongst those men, was a better and more useful man to send abroad, and was less liable to fail through sickness than the young boys one gets nowadays. I did not intend to speak upon that matter, but to say that it is a matter of great regret that we have to discuss the details of the Army at the present moment without having had an opportunity of discussing the general principles of Imperial Defence, or having heard what is the general view of the Sub-Committee, which must be of great importance. To take one fundamental matter only: At the present moment, from what the right hon. Gentleman said to-day, and has said on previous occasions, it is difficult to know whether the Territorial Force exists to release the Expeditionary Force, or whether the Expeditionary Force exists to cover the initial training of the Territorial Force. If we could have a really dogmatic statement on that matter, it would clear our minds, and we should now have to criticise the organisation, the provision, and such changes of opinion as are inferred with regard to certain exalted officials. One would then be able to test the Territorial Force in view of the statements of the Prime Minister in July, 1909, and we could test its actual value in being able to stop a possible invading force if the Navy had not time to arrest it.
With regard to the Territorial Force, I know the right hon. Gentleman and the Prime Minister always manage to feel completely satisfied, no matter how black the situation looks. They generally arrive at that state of mind by repeating certain statistical formulae which produce a kind of auto-hypnotic state. For instance, the Prime Minister in replying to a deputation from the National Service League, produced a statistical formula better than any I have heard of for the purpose. He produced a standard to which the Territorial Force conformed very well indeed at that moment. I have heard of all kinds of statistical formulæ—candle power that had nothing to do with candles, horse-power that has nothing to do with horses, and in one case of a ton mile that had nothing to do with weight or space—but I never heard of troops being measured by the camp day aggregate as a proof of their fighting capacity. The Prime Minister admitted that he was 63,000 men short of what it was stated he should have had, but, on the other hand, he said, the camp day aggregate was 202,000 as against 156,000 for the previous year. I admit that is a triumph, but, at the same time, it is like one of those magic spells which have a habit of recoiling upon the wizard's head at most unexpected moments, because I find that 75,000 Continental troops have more camp days than a million and a half Territorials of the most efficient kind. I find that one Continental soldier has behind him as many camp days as a Territorial who has served for seventy-one years with the Colours. In the same way the Prime Minister found that musketry had improved. That was because fewer men had been tested, and that 148,000 was a higher percentage of the 176,000 who were tested than the 153,000 who were tested in the previous year were to 188,000. That sort of facts and quotations rather tends to obscure from the public mind two main facts; one is that we are 63,000 men short of the men that we should have—that is under the most modest computation.
Fifty-six thousand.
And on the other hand, that of the existing men we have only 148,000 who have been tested for musketry in the last year. Personally, I think that recruiting has improved, and I am certain that with the £1 bounty it will continue to improve, but with a large influx of recruits, I submit that the right hon. Gentleman should keep a close eye on the wastage which occurs when you bring in a lot of recruits. If 60,000 come in for a given year, a larger percentage than would be the case with a less number would not appear at the second camp, and there is a larger wastage during the period of service. I thank the right hon. Gentleman most heartily for the £1 bounty which does away with one injustice from which the Territorial Force suffered; but there is one person who still must suffer, that is the small employer who has Territorial soldiers in his employ. It is a different thing with a large employer who has a large business, but if a, man has only two, three, or four employés in his shop or business, if he lets one go, he is losing one-third, one-half, or one-fourth of his staff as the case may be. That is a considerable tax on the small employer. He should receive 10s. for the second week of his men's service in order to help him to find additional labour. The other point to which I wish to draw attention is the question of the equipment of the Territorial Force. I must still ask for socks and shirts and boots and mobilisation stores. It is most important that we should get these things now. If the Territorial Force is ever mobilised it will be a time undoubtedly of chaos in trade and business and on the railways and the mobilising of so large a force following on the mobilising of the Expeditionary Force, will produce a period of congestion on the railways which will be without precedent. We cannot look back to the South African war to give us any indication of what a general mobilisation will be in England now. The South African mobilisation was very slow. The Militia Reserve came first, then the Militia stores were ready to hand and the people went to the front in driblets and in parties which could be easily handled. Then we were only able to equip the South African Expeditionary Force because the Duke of Connaught had commanded at Aldershot some time previously, and had collected a very great mass of stores, and he incurred some criticism for having collected stores which were considered to be in excess of what was required. But even then, with small numbers, sending not more than 12,000 men a week, one had to boil haversacks in coffee in order to make white haversacks into khaki haversacks on the eve of departure. Still, we got over the South African difficulty without any real hitch. But South Africa was a slow exodus with a surplus of stores. The Territorial Force mobilised as a whole will be a sudden influx of men, and I feel that there will be a deficit of stores somewhere or another. It is impossible to send battalions down to Aldershot or elsewhere to fetch them, because the Regulars will be there, and there will not be room. You cannot send the stores by rail because the railways will be blocked taking food and other things to the various parts of the country. As for asking the commanding officers to buy the stores, as has been suggested, the commanding officer of a Territorial detachment, if he gets his men fed and his ammunition issued and gets his men together, and gets over the general difficulties of mobilisation, will not have time to go about buying blankets or pots and pans and things like that. He will have plenty to do. Of course it is a very irritating kind of expense to buy a lot of stores and hide them away and never see them. You cannot use them. They cannot be shown on occasions like this, and they are unornamental, and the man in the street knows nothing about them at all. But still, if ever the Territorial Force is wanted, it will be a disaster if the stores are not there upon the spot.
Another point to which I wished to draw attention is the position of the Territorial quartermaster, which is a very hard one indeed. His work is harder than a Regular battalion quartermaster. He has stores scattered all over the place, and there are a great number of canteens, bars and other things that he has to look after. He has approximately £10,000 worth of Government property on hand. His correspondence, in the case of one battalion at least, and it was not considered anything extraordinary, was 2,500 letters in one year, and for that he receives less than some people think an agricultural labourer ought to receive—that is £50 a year. Of course it might be submitted that a quartermaster is probably an old pensioner, but I do not think the right hon. Gentleman at the War Office has any right to take his pension into consideration. The quartermaster in a Territorial battalion is, next to the adjutant, the most important person, and the whole question-of success or failure of mobilisation depends upon him. He has great responsibilities upon his shoulders, and with regard to the Territorial Force the question of stores, and the right man in the right place to issue them, is one which I hope the right hon Gentleman, will consider.
There is another point which I think is rather important. At present grand manœuvres fall unduly hardly on British soldiers. Our climate is an unpleasant one at all times. It is uncertain: you may get extreme cold, and English soldiers are the only soldiers in the world who on grand manœuvres are denied practically any form of shelter. Officers and men really dread the coming of manœuvres, for they have to undergo hardships which in war troops very often do not have to undergo. Night after night without cover may not seem so ill a thing as in fact it is, but, with the short summer nights, the men are under the sun and cannot get away from it, and it wears down their vitality. They are fatigued, and the result is that the manœuvres are to many of them by the fourth or fifth day absolutely disgusting. They are worn to a, shred. People see them coming back bronzed and looking very healthy, but if they have not had proper shelter at night their eyes are stinging, their ears are ringing, and in young bones there are the seeds of rheumatics which ought not to be there for some years to come. I wish the right hon. Gentleman would take the bull by the horns and introduce legislation to allow troops to be billeted in private houses.
I know the English soldier is looked upon as a social outcast by a very few people. Still, even without legislation, there are in town and country plenty of outbuildings and other buildings where troops could be at the time of manœuvres. In towns you have stables, garages, cinema theatres, temperance halls, Free Trade halls and other secular buildings of that kind. They have always been extended to me and I have used them for that purpose. In the country English agriculture is in most parts richer in outbuildings than in a country where there are many small holdings. Where you have large farms there are more barns, covered yards and other outbuildings which would be available. I know the Staff College objection that such buildings are for hospitals and the Headquarter Staff, and so on in war, but, at least, in war men will not sleep on the ground; why should they in peace? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider, as an initial step, using such outbuildings for housing troops, and so make manœuvres, as they are to the Continental soldier, a pleasant recollection. It would be an advantage to recruiting in several ways. First of all, it would bring the soldier nearer to the people, and also he would not tell his civilian friends such dismal experiences of manœuvres as he sometimes does; and, lastly, it would build a bridge between the civilian population and the Army, and it would give the officer an exercise in a thing which the Continental officer does by daily routine in manœuvres and out of manœuvres—that is billeting men, which, with us, is a matter which is learnt merely as technical theory.
I have listened with pleasure to the speech of the hon. Baronet, which has met with general approval on both sides of the House. I congratulate the Secretary of State upon his admirable speech. One part of the speech to which I listened with great pleasure was that in which Jie stated the arrangements which had been made to give the man who has risen from the ranks an opportunity for educating himself. I raised that question very shortly after I was elected in 1806 and in 1910, and last year I suggested to the right hon. Gentleman that he should adopt a system which is in existence in Germany. He said an officer had been asked to go to France to inquire what system is in existence there. I pointed out last year that they have an admirable system in Germany, and if a man is raised from the ranks he should have an opportunity of going to Sandhurst for six months to get an education in tactics, in which case he would not have the strain that he has now. The moment he is raised to the ranks he has not only to attend to his ordinary duties, but has to prepare himself for an examination in tactics. I drew attention last year to one or two inequalities of payment. With regard to quartermasters, in 1911 there was a change made in the pay of quartermaster-sergeants, but, whilst it was a great benefit to some of the quartermasters, it turned out to be very deficient in others. For instance, many quartermasters who were expected to derive benefit from the change had to wait, it was found, until 1916 before they could get any benefit. I suggest that the time limit should be abolished and that the men should at once receive the benefit which is intended for them. I should be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman can say whether that has been done. The same thing applies to a change which was made in the pay of majors in the Army. Will it be believed that whilst the change which was made was supposed to be beneficial to the majors, in point of fact some of them who have retired say that after the change was made they will actually get less retiring pension than they would under the old arrangements! That is a very stupid thing. I shall be glad to hear whether some change can be made in that.
May I also ask whether the Secretary of State will make some announcement or some answer to the deputation which waited upon him at the War Office the other day with regard to the building of a church at Bedford? There have been two deputations to the War Office on the matter, and I think the right hon. Gentleman was very pleased with the unity existing amongst the different ranks in Scotland, and I hope he will now be able to make some announcement as to what they are going to do. I also wish to ask whether they have come to any decision as to what to do with Edinburgh Castle? I should like to reply to one or two observations made on the other side in regard to the depleting of this country in the matter of horses owing to foreigners buying. If you increase your selling market you increase your productive market. The very fact that the Argentine Republic and the United States of America come to this country so constantly to buy prize-bred stock is an encouragement to breeders in this country to breed the stock which is required. The fact that foreigners come here to buy horses is a reason for helping farmers to produce the horses which are required. One thing which did more to check the breeding of horses in this country than anything else was the invention of motor cars, and the more we can extend our foreign markets for horses the greater will be the possible supply of horses.
7.0 P.M.
I was glad to hear the sympathetic way in which the Secretary of State referred to the subject of the employment of ex-soldiers, and I hope the Report of the Commission may bring some good results, but it is disappointing that this question has been often raised before and yet we only see this very small increase of 1.25 per cent, in the numbers of ex-soldiers and sailors employed. I am glad to see that the Postmaster-General has made an advance in the direction of taking men as postmen under three years service who had been discharged owing to wounds or sickness contracted on active service, but I wish the Secretary of State could use his influence with the Postmaster-General to have that extended to men who have been discharged under three years' service from illness which is certified as due to what they have contracted while serving with the Colours, whether on active service or not. One or two other points with regard to unemployment are mentioned in this abstract of the Army, and one is with regard to the employment of ex-soldiers and sailors in Ireland. No one can read the Report without having grave misgivings as to the way ex-soldiers and sailors are treated in Ireland at present, and the way the numbers employed have gone down, equally with the prison service, with the railway Service and with police employment. In the case of England and Wales we find that in the prison service in 1913 vacancies were filled up by ex-soldiers to the extent of 65 per cent., while in the case of Ireland the number was as low as 37 per cent. With regard to police employment, whereas in the London City Police the percentage of ex-soldiers was 37, and in the borough and county police of England 35, but in the Dublin Metropolitan Police it fell to 5.6, and in the Royal Irish Constabulary to 1.4. It is exactly the same with regard to the railways I am glad to see that the English railways do employ a very large number of these men, but I observe that in the case of the Irish railways the numbers are not so satisfactory. In the case of the Cork, Blackrock, and Bandon railway, there is only one ex-soldier in its employment. It is not a very large railway, but I think they could afford to have in the service more than one ex-soldier. The present Government have so much in common with the Irish party that I hope they may be able to put some pressure on their Friends with a view to the employment of more ex-soldiers and ex-sailors. I trust that the diminishing numbers employed this year in the prison service are not a portent of what will happen under Home Rule in Ireland.
As to the increased pay in the Army, I would point out that no increase has been granted to the Brigade of Guards. I know the excuse for that will be that the officers in the Brigade of Guards get what is known as Guards' pay. It is well to recollect what was the origin of Guards' pay. In 1881 the Radical Government, with an intelligent anticipation of the policy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, laid violent hands on a purely private fund which was subscribed by the officers of the Brigade of Guards. The Government disclaimed any dishonest intention in doing so, and when the question was raised they said that the interest of the fund would be given, in Guards' pay in order to enable them to pay lodging money. At that time there was no accommodation in barracks for the officers at all. I am referring especially to the case of captains in the Brigade of Guards, who are not only no better off than officers in the Line, but are in many cases actually worse off. When an officer goes to the Staff College, he loses his Guards' pay. I know of one case at the present moment in which a captain with twelve years' service will only draw 11s. 7d. a day, whereas Line officers are drawing 14s. 7d. a day. It may be argued that officers of the Brigade of Guards are generally men of larger private means. As to that I would say, first of all, that it is extremely undesirable that it should be supposed that no man should serve in the Brigade of Guards unless he has large private means. If you take the average officer serving in Cavalry regiments, I think you will find that he has, as a rule, larger private means than the average officer in the Brigade of Guards. I do hope that the Secretary of State will consider this point, and, at any rate, put the officers in the Brigade of Guards on an equality in all respects with officers of the Line I think the fact that the purely private fund of the Brigade of Guards was annexed by the Government should not be counted. They should be allowed the increase of pay which was granted to the other officers of the same standing throughout the Army.
I welcome the optimism of the speech delivered to-night by the Secretary of State for War. While I think that in many instances we see some improvements, there are other matters which are distinctly depressing. I must say that in any matter concerned with the defences of the country, be it naval or military, I look upon the subject from an entirely non-party point of view. I am perfectly willing to join hands with any party which will see that our defences are adequate to our need. I only wish I could say the same of other gentlemen not in this House, and who are partisans. If we want an example of the way these matters are dealt with, we must remember the Debate in another place last year, when certainly the responsible Ministers speaking for the Government did all they could to divert the discussion from the actual and notorious facts into side channels, and to turn the discussion away from anything that could lead to a real and valuable conclusion. I think that is a great pity, and I would like to refer now to a question which, to my mind, is the most important to be settled in connection with the Territorial Force. No one who considers the defences of the country can feel comfortable at the knowledge that there is a deficiency of over 60,000 men in that force—that is, below the minimum laid down by Lord Haldane when he started his Territorial scheme. I do not think Lord Haldane has had a groat deal of assistance from Gentlemen on the Ministerial side of the House. I can remember when he first launched on the country his scheme for the organisation of the Territorial Force. I think he received no support from any single Cabinet Minister. He was entirely alone in everything he did. He received little or no encouragement from any Minister on these benches, and certainly no Minister showed any enthusiasm for his Territorial scheme. On the Unionist side of the House and in the country we have done everything we could to assist the Territorial movement. While referring to the discussion in another place, I would remind the House that Lord Haldane tried to saddle the Unionist party with a desire to introduce conscription into this country.
The hon. Member is not entitled to answer statements made in debate in another place.
I bow to your ruling. The question of the shortage has to be grappled with. I know quite well that there are many difficulties in raising the number required by the Territorial system. The right hon. Gentleman has to contend with two great obstacles which stand in the way of obtaining an adequate Territorial Force. The first is the question of the employers. I know that most of the large employers are very ready and willing to assist the Territorial movement, and to allow their men to have the necessary-leave in order that they may attend camp, and that the small employers are unable to give them leave. They may be equally patriotic, but they cannot spare their men, and that is a matter which the Secretary of State must grapple with and arrange. If he does that he will get over one of the great difficulties. The other question which so greatly affects the Territorial Force is that of officers. I would strongly recommend the right hon. Gentleman to see whether something cannot be done in order to make officers, who have served a certain period in the Regular Army and who desire to leave, join the Territorial Force. Everyone who has had any experience of a Territorial regiment knows the great value of getting officers who have served in the Regular Army for a certain number of years. I do not think it is beyond the bounds of possibility to inaugurate a system by which an officer who has served, say, five or six years and who wants to leave, may be bound to serve a limited number of years in the Territorial Force. If you get a nucleus of officers who have served in the Regular Army, then I am perfectly certain your civilian officers would learn discipline from them, and when I say discipline I do not mean fear of punishment—I mean the discipline that makes them play the game. If you could get that nucleus of officers, I am perfectly certain that the value of the Territorial Force would be greatly increased. Not only would this improve the civilian officers, but there would be a better feeling all through the rank and file, because they would know that the officers had served in the Army and knew their work. I cannot help feeling that something may be done in that line, and I am sure it would be of great benefit to the Service.
With regard to the actual members of the Territorial Force, I would say that the regiments are of very little use unless all the men in them have gone through annual training. I think the training of four or five days is of comparatively little use. The minimum number of days in camp that will make a man efficient is already small enough. I think fifteen days ought to be compulsory for every man, and he should, of course, go through the necessary drill in the other months of the year and attend a course of musketry. I do not think we can consider the regiments efficient unless they have done that training. The right hon. Gentleman has made a proposal to give extra Grants to the Territorials—the Infantry and the Yeomanry—and I do hope that will do some good, but until something is achieved in that respect, so that all shall be trained, I do not think that we can feel very happy about the Territorials. When Lord Haldane first started his scheme he told us that the Territorial regiments would require six months before they were fit to go on active service and meet an enemy. I am perfectly certain that that is true. What have we to do if our Home defence is left in the hands of the Territorials when they want six months' training before they are fit to meet an enemy? That is certainly the weakest point of the whole Territorial system. The right hon. Gentleman told us that the shortage in the Army was 8,000 men, but only about a week ago, when I put a question in the House, the numbers were given as 13,000.
Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman was misled by the phrase I used. It is net shortage. We have a considerable surplus abroad, and a considerable deficiency at home, and taking a balance between those, the latest deficiency is just over 8,000.
Coming to the National Reserve, it is very satisfactory to think that we have 13,000 men ready to serve anywhere, who would for the time being fill the place of those men who are deficient in the Special Reserve. But I would like to know if all those men have served in the Army, or if some of them have only served in the Territorial Force. If they have all served in the Regular Army, and if they are medically fit, I do not doubt that they would be a valuable addition if they are not over 42, as the right hon. Gentleman said. I would like to know if the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to do anything for the National Reserve? Many of them have formed themselves into regiments, and do a certain number of drills each year. Unless they do drills and keep themselves up to the mark they would not be fit to take their place in the ranks and go on active service. Is it not possible to give those men who really take an interest in the regiment which they have formed some uniform? That would have a very good effect on the Reserve, and induce other people to join. It would be of great help in increasing the numbers and in increasing the efficiency. I do not suppose that the Reserve ever get an opportunity of shooting, and if they are not able to go through a course on the range I do not know what they would do if they were put into regiments and sent into active service. They would not, in such conditions, give a very good account of themselves.
I was very glad to hear the satisfactory account which was given of the census of horses which has been made. I am glad that it has been done on the right lines, by appointing 500 officers of the Army to go over the census and see that every horse is properly registered, and every horse of a suitable kind. But if you have got this reserve of 375,000 horses that have already been marked as available, I would like to know what you are going to do on mobilisation. Have you appointed the depots where these horses are to be brought, so that in the event of their being required, you will know where to find them assembled, and can then draft them to the regiments or depots as required? That is very important, because in the event of these horses being called up you cannot do it all at once. You would need a considerable time to do it, unless you have an appointed rendezvous in each county or in each district. That is not a difficult matter to arrange, and it would make the mobilisation of the horses very much easier.
I welcome cordially what the right hon. Gentleman said about "ending the blind-alley employment of the Army." I have spoken on this more than once in this House. I feel that it is a duty which the State owes to those men who join the Service and leave everything they care about at home to go and serve their country in India and elsewhere, that they should feel that at the end of their service they will get employment which will mean that their future will be assured. Further, if those men are appointed under the Civil Service, on the expiration of their Colour service, then the Government ought to allow them to count the years which they have served in the Army or the Navy towards their pensions in the Civil Departments. That would not cost a very large sum, but it would not only help those men—it would help the Army in every way, because it would induce the best class of young men to join the Army, knowing that in the future they would get employment, and that each year they served they were doing themselves good by increasing the pension which they would obtain if eventually they did get Civil Service employment. That would go a long way towards making the Army popular. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on what he said as to the possibility of bringing to an end this "blind-alley employment." I think, on the whole, that the statement of the right hon. Gentleman is more satisfactory than many of us anticipated, and I hope that it means real earnestness on the part of the Government in the intention to grapple with these matters that are vital to the nation, and that require to be attended to at once.
I desire to speak for a few minutes on a subject which has come under my notice. I had an opportunity during the last few weeks of coming across a large number of men who might be considered experts in the disposal of ex-soldiers. It seems to me a most interesting expression of opinion that the secret of our not succeeding in getting a proper number of recruits to join the Colours is the blind-alley end of the Service. I welcome very much what the Secretary of State has said in that regard, but the opinions of these experts led me to believe that it was essential that the soldier should be trained for his service afterwards while serving with the Colours. Another important matter was that the greatest harm was done to the soldier when he left the Colours if he had to wait for employment for many months. While with the Colours he had learned to work, and he had learned discipline and to keep regular hours. But during the period in which he did not work he lost all the good that he had gained. It seemed to be clearly the opinion of those experts that the Army should be a place where those who join it could learn some means of providing for themselves afterwards. A certain proportion would find places in the Civil Service, but it was pointed out that only a very small proportion of the men who left the Colours could find vacancies in the Civil Service ready for them. According to the figures given recently by Sir Matthew Nathan there are at this moment 800,000 ex-soldiers. There are 140,000 employés of the central Government and 107,000 employés of the municipalities, making in all only 250,000 employés.
If everyone of these places were given to ex-soldiers, and there are 800,000 old soldiers known to exist, it seems inevitable that sooner or later some organisation should be created by which the soldier shall be prepared for his future life while serving with the Colours, and some effort should be made by which, through the Labour Exchanges or some other means, he should decide what occupation he would like to take up when he leaves the Army, and that he should be given a certain notice that he cannot go into the Civil Service because there are too many applicants, but that he must prepare himself for some other work. If so, he must give a certain amount of his leisure time to prepare himself for those duties. Without that the blind alley would be there all the time. I was told the other day of someone who had recently cross-examined the gutter men who were selling matches round the Strand, and of the first nineteen men who were questioned thirteen were old soldiers. If so, no wonder that it is difficult for a recruiting sergeant to induce men to enlist when they are always liable, if they get in touch with a likely recruit, to have one of these men come up and tell the old story that there is a blind-alley end to the Army, and that there is a good example in themselves of what would happen to the would-be recruit. I think it is a matter for congratulation that the Secretary for State is having an investigation into this matter, and I hope that in due course it will beaj fruit. When it has borne fruit it will do away entirely with the bad name of the Service, because the men who join the Colours are as good as any others if they have a proper chance, and a proper chance can only be given by proper organisation.
There are some points to which I wish to draw attention with the object of asking for an explanation. The hon and gallant Gentleman the Member for Torquay (Colonel Burn) referred to the desirability of having a uniform for the National Reserve. I quite agree that such a uniform, if it can be obtained, would be a very-excellent thing. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, I have had some communications with him upon this subject, and I do not think that I am disclosing any secret by saying that, as I understand, one of his objections to a uniform for the National Reserve is that it would involve a large expenditure of money which is not on the Estimates. The suggestion which I made to the right hon. Gentleman was that he should allow any individuals in any particular place who desire to provide themselves with a uniform at their own expense to do so. I put that to the right hon. Gentleman, and his reply was that if those individuals provided themselves with uniforms, in course of time the demand would be made and pressed upon him for the expenditure of large sums on the part of the War Office to provide every other individual in the National Reserve with a uniform. That might be so. May I make this suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman: Let him lay down now that under no conditions whatsoever will he give way to that demand. Having said so much, then let him say that any individual or company of the National Reserve which desires to provide himself, or itself, with a uniform may do so. What is the present position? As I understand it, there is kept in store a sufficient number of uniforms to equip the National Reserve in case of mobilisation. Why should not members of the National Reserve, who desire to do so, obtain those uniforms now, at their own expense? This, of course, must be approved by the War Office, and if the right hon. Gentleman lays it down that under no conditions will he accede to any demand to provide the National Reserve with uniforms at the cost of the War Office, I am sure he will find that a very great number of the National Reservists would provide themselves with their own uniforms, and that would be a very great incentive to recruiting the National Reserve, and secure an excellent result in every way. There are one or two other matters about which I wish to say a few words. In the Memorandum issued by the Secretary of State there is the following paragraph:—
"The increase in the Cavalry at home also enabled the Mounted Infantry Schools at home and in South Africa to be dispensed with, and on mobilisation relieves Infantry battalions of the strain of detaching picked men to form Mounted Infantry battalions."
Are we to understand from this that the Mounted Infantry, as an organisation in the British Army, is a thing of the past? That is a question which I put to the right hon. Gentleman. There have been times in our history when, at great expense, at the last moment, and with great trouble, it has been found necessary to raise battalions of Mounted Infantry from battalions in the field, and to equip them and send them on service. I do not know whether it is assumed from this that Mounted Infantry and Cavalry are one and the same thing and have the same work to do. I think there are many hon. Members in this House who know the value of the Mounted Infantry when they have been on service in particular parts of the world, and I should be very sorry indeed myself to see the total disappearance, as an organisation, of the Mounted Infantry from our Service. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us exactly how this matter stands. There is another matter to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, namely, the question of machine guns. In his Memorandum he says:—
"The Cavalry at home have been equipped with a machine gun weighing, when ready for action, 28½ lbs., less than the earlier pattern, and the equipment of the Cavalry abroad and some of the Infantry with the new pattern is provided for."
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, last year I expressed some doubt as to whether this light machine gun was in every way the best machine gun for the Infantry. I expressed no opinion upon it as regards the Cavalry, but I have grave doubts as to whether this light gun would be an improvement upon the present machine gun so far as the Infantry are concerned. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to say whether it is his intention to. arm the whole Infantry with this light machine gun. I hope he will be able to give the House an assurance on the subject, on the authority not of any expert Committee, but of Infantry officers who have to use this gun in the field. The test should be not by an expert Committee and ex-gunners, but by the officers who have to use this gun in the field, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give the House an assurance on their authority that this light machine gun is in every way an improvement on-the machine gun at present in use. I turn-from that to the question of the rifle. The right hon. Gentleman passed over the rifle in a very few sentences, and perhaps he did so from an express desire not to say too much about it—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—though for reasons other than those held by hon. Gentlemen opposite. The right hon. Gentleman refers in his memorandum to experiments carried out by the troops during 1913 with a new magazine rifle of 276-inch calibre. The paragraph goes on to say:—
"While results were in many ways highly satisfactory, they disclosed the necessity for further scientific research experiment. These are being vigorously prosecuted, and I hope that before long an arm of this calibre, satisfactory in all respects, will have been worked out."
But in his speech the right hon. Gentleman said that we have very nearly reached the limit of flatness trajectory, and of muzzle velocity. Then he went on to say, in so far as an ordinary magazine rifle is concerned, that an advance will be sought in other directions, and if that advance is made we must not be behind other countries. I do not know quite what the right hon. Gentleman means by using the words "other directions." Did he mean to convey the possibility that an automatic rifle looms in sight? I am not quite sure, but I hope that is not the case. I do not know whether, having regard to the interests of the Service, he will be able to give us much information about this, but I do urge upon him not to hasten forward too rapidly in the direction of the automatic rifle. The right hon. Gentleman knows what my views upon this subject are. I have had to give them to the House on some previous occasion. However, I do ask the right hon. Gentleman to be very careful, whatever may be the opinions of his expert advisers—and I say that in no derogatory sense—to consider this question of the rifle from every point of view before he commits himself to a rifle of automatic character. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman may be able to answer some of the questions I have put to him.
I only wish to refer to one or two points in the Secretary of State's speech. One had reference to the appeal in which the right hon. Gentleman joined with his colleague at the Admiralty, as to landing places in this country for aviators. I submit that this object is a most desirable one in the interests of aviation. Perhaps the appeals which have been made upon this subject may take shape in some public statement as to what is a proper space for the purpose of landing. I presume that a certain length is necessary, and a long narrow strip seems to be the more useful. I submit that if people only knew what is wanted they would certainly do their best to respond to the requirements of the authorities.
I desire to refer to two other matters, one being a rather delicate subject at this moment—the question of canteens. I think the action of the War Office as regards that matter certainly does not redound to their credit. The first intimation the public received that there was anything wrong with the canteen management was the announcement of the War Office that a large number of quartermasters were about to be tried by court-martial. As is known that court-martial was cancelled, but not until all those officers had been under arrest for some weeks. Apparently, it was the result of some of the officers putting in their defences or asking for further inquiry that the proceedings were not gone on with in their cases. It was contrary to the principles of English law that officers should have been kept under arrest for certain periods, and then released with no opportunity of clearing their characters, as certainly ought to be done. I wish to know what is the position of those who wish to make contracts for canteens at the present moment? As is well known, there are two firms and one co-operative society who practically have had the whole of the business in their hands of late years. One firm have a number of employes who are undergoing trial on certain charges at the present moment. As the trial is likely to be a prolonged one I would like to know whether the firm are to be allowed to make fresh contracts for canteen management. Further, I wish to ask whether there is any intention of taking any action against another firm, Messrs. Dickeson, whose name has constantly appeared in the course of these proceedings. Keferences have been repeatedly made to them, and it is a well understood thing that the same sort of misconduct is asserted against Messrs. Dickeson as is alleged against Messrs. Lipton. I should like to know whether the right hon. Gentlemen is going to proceed against any individuals of that firm as well as ther other. It seems to me that the Secretary of State, before embarking upon proceedings against these officers and employes, should have made up his mind in advance as to what scheme he intended to adopt for the canteens in the future. We hear remarks to the effect that there is an idea that the War Office themselves will manage this business. If that is so, surely it ought to be announced as early as possible. I hope some statement will be made on that subject.
The only other point to which I desire to refer is as to the pay of Guards' officers and the reason why they have not been awarded the increase of pay that has been given to officers of the Line. Officers of the Line have now twice received increases of pay which have not been accorded to officers of regiments of Footguards. Previous to the last increase, the pay of a commanding officer of a Line battalion was £419, as compared with £328 of an officer of Footguards. When you take the latest increase into consideration, even after adding Guards' pay in the one case and all allowances in the other, the Guards' colonel still finds himself with something like £22 per year less than the Line officer. Surely there is something wrong in this. An officer who is appointed to the War Office receives, I understand, £100 extra pay on the ground that the cost of living in London is so much greater. Surely the Footguards' colonel ought at least also to get something of the same sort. In addition to that extra cost he does not, either in London or in Windsor, get a house such as is found for the colonel of a Line regiment in practically every station in which lie is quartered in this country. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will favourably consider this matter and give us some reason for this remarkable omission of commanding officers of Footguards in the increases. I think he will be astonished if he will inquire as to the number of Guards' officers who have recently given up their commissions in order to accept more lucrative employment, either in the City or elsewhere. If he is under the delusion that the Guards' officers are so well off that the pay is of no consequence, I think he is wholly wrong, and, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Southport said, even if they were so well off, surely it is a wholly wrong principle that the State should take advantage of that and not give them an adequate amount for the expenditure they incur, and the work they undertake.
It is not often that I intervene in an Army Debate, and I hesitate somewhat in doing so, though I do not think it is altogether a bad thing for us to be let take part now and again in these Debates. I rise on this occasion for the purpose of dealing with one question, and I do so because we all recognise that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State is sincerely desirous of doing everything he possibly can for the discharged soldier. On that account I desire to assure him that this matter is one which interests the people of this country very largely. That interest is not by any means confined only to soldiers or ex-soldiers. I had this matter brought to my mind very forcibly the other day by a friend of mine who fills a responsible position in the Army on active service, and who is a very distinguished soldier. I will give to the House his personal experience because, while it is very easy to speak generally, and while undoubtedly general statements are quite true, yet I think a concrete instance very often is much more forcible. This officer assures me that it costs him more than £100 per year in helping and providing for men who have served under him and who cannot find employment. I would sooner not mention the officer's name in the House but I will tell it privately to the right hon. Gentleman. That seems to me to be rather a startling thing when you come to think of what the officer's pay is. It is not a very large amount to begin with, and when you come to consider that the officer to whom I refer is in a responsible position and on active service, I think it is perfectly certain he is not a man who would spend his money on cases which are not deserving cases. I do not suppose his case is a singular one, and there may be many other instances. It that be so, I think, speaking as a civilian, it is really a startling matter and one worthy of the greatest possible consideration.
The question seems to be important from two points of view, and first from the point of view of fair dealing, and by that I mean you expect these soldiers to give up, perhaps, the best part of their lives and go to distant countries and bad climates and follow their officers whenever called upon—which, thank goodness, they always do—and then they are to be turned adrift with no trade to which they can put their hands. It is a commonplace that they are handicapped in that way. There is another point of view, and that is, as to making the Army popular and recruiting better, and, in order-to do that, you ought to make the conditions under which the soldiers serve good, as in latter days they have been, and you ought to ensure some reasonable chance of finding employment after active service. Let me again assure the right hon. gentleman that this is really a matter about which many of us, although not soldiers, feel very strongly. If he could give us some more definite information as regards the steps which he intends to take, then I think he would increase the satisfaction which he has produced by what he has already said. It is because I recognise that he is so sympathetic and wants to do everything he possibly can, that I have risen to refer to the subject and to ask him, if possible, to give us some more definite information.
I desire to support the request of the hon. and gallant Member for Kincardineshire as to the National Reserve. I have the honour to command a battalion in London, and it is brought to my notice repeatedly that there is great dissatisfaction at not being allowed to wear a uniform. One complaint is that on parade they look like a body of strikers, while some of them say that their clothes are not sufficiently respectable to enable them to turn out as smart as they desire. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he cannot see his way to grant the request. If unable to provide uniforms on account of expense, I believe that private funds could easily be found. Further, many men are prepared and willing to pay for their uniforms and have expressed that desire on many occasions. Then I would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he cannot possibly see his way to increase the grants of 11s. and 6s. respectively. After deductions have been made for administrative purposes the sum available is quite in-sufficient. I know from personal knowledge that the right hon. Gentleman is very keen to do all that he can for this body. He has told us of the value they are to the State, and I think if he were to meet these two points, everybody would be pleased, and recruiting considerably increased.
I desire to mention two matters which were referred to by an hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, and in the first place to ask the Secretary of State a question on the subject people are rather inclined to over-estimate their good qualities. I think those who have experience of mounted troops, and I have not myself, will agree that the Mounted Infantry at best are a very moderate substitute for Cavalry, and if they have been organised at the last minute on previous occasions, it has been merely because there are not sufficient Cavalry to do the work properly. If you ask any general officer taking a force into the field he would a great deal rather have Cavalry than Mounted Infantry, although we know that Cavalry are more expensive and more difficult to train. I would refer also to the question of a rifle, which I am sure everybody in the Service hopes will not be much longer delayed—that is to say, the introduction of the new rifle, because we are always told, and I think every officer is told at Hythe, that our present rifle does not come up to the standard of Continental nations. I am sure that no one realises that more than the British soldier himself, because he is continually finding on the range and in the field, that the rifle is defective in various respects.
Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman say that it is defective in many particulars compared with the rifles of other nations, and, if so, I should like to know of any basis for that.
As I think I originally said, I would prefer to go into this question in detail on another occasion, but I would only tell the right hon. Gentleman this: that in certain practice, which is included in the practice fire of Regular soldiers, it has been found necessary, owing to the frequency with which jams take place, to keep tins of oil behind the firing point, into which the men dip their bolts before fire practice. I maintain that a thing of that kind destroys the confidence of the soldier going into action in the weapon which he is going to use.
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but any statement reflecting on the value of the soldier's weapon is so important, and, as I may not have the opportunity of replying to-night, I am sure he will forgive me for making a statement now. Exhaustive tests we have recently made tend to show that with regard to accuracy, which he seems to impugn—
No, I did not.
May I make a statement in order that there may be no mistake? In exhaustive tests recently made with regard to accuracy, the American rifle appears to come out first and ours comes out second, and all the rifles of foreign Powers come after it. And with regard to reliability, ours, according to the latest tests, is superior to all. No statement about this matter should be made without careful examination.
8.0 P.M.
I must accept any statement of the kind. I did not impugn the accuracy of the rifle, and I think he will do me the justice to admit that I did not, nor did I desire to go further into the question than what I stated. What I stated was, that I knew it was generally considered in the Service that it was high time he had a new rifle, and that every practical soldier believes that that time should not be delayed further than was absolutely necessary. I should like to refer to a matter in regard to which the right hon. Gentleman took considerable exception to my attitude on a previous occasion. I refer to his voicing the opinion of the General Staff. I am not aware whether or not to-day he referred to the General Staff as having given their opinion on any particular point. We have now a body of men called the General Staff. They are often referred to, and their opinion is often quoted. The right hon. Gentleman has admitted that when he says that the General Staff have advised on such and such a point, and given such and such an opinion, he means that that is the view given him by the Chief of the General Staff. I never intended and I should be the last person in the world to say anything against the Chief of the General Staff, quite apart from the fact that I hold His Majesty's commission, and therefore would not on any account do so. But I maintain that when the right hon. Gentleman, either in this House or in the country, says that the General Staff have advised him on such and such a matter he should make it clear that he means, not the General Staff, but the Chief of the General Staff. I would suggest, with all respect, that it is not impossible that the opinion of the General Staff should be taken on matters of policy connected with the Army. There are a large number of officers, both in the Territorial Force and in the Regular Army, holding General Staff appointments, and their opinion very often appears to disagree with the opinion expressed by the right hon. Gentlemen in this House and elsewhere. There is no reason why there should not be a conference of the General Staff officers upon occasions when the opinion of the General Staff is desired on matters of policy.
In his statement to-day I think the right hon. Gentleman passed over rather too lightly the number of Reservists that it would be necessary to bring into the Regular battalions and regiments in case of mobilisation. He spoke as if it were quite immaterial whether a company consisted of sixty men with the Colours and forty Reservists, or of twenty men with the Colours and eighty Reservists. Any officer who has dealt with Reservists will agree that it is not quite so easy as one would think to take over, out of the hundred in your company, eighty men whom you have never seen, and who have been living a civilian life, possibly for some years, before being suddenly called upon to take their places in the ranks. On the question of the shortage of recruits, I do not wish to minimise in any degree the advantage that would accrue from the greater certainty of obtaining employment when the soldier leaves the Colours. There is, however, another point which goes against recruiting. I speak as one who has served in a branch of the Service which normally does not go abroad, except in the event of active service. I recognise that this is an expensive suggestion, but if something could be done to reduce the period which an ordinary battalion of Infantry, or regiment of Cavalry, or brigade of Artillery, has to spend abroad it would do a great deal to induce a large number of men to enlist. I do not think that any man cares to enlist with the virtual certainty of spending the whole of his soldiering in India. Many men enjoy Indian or foreign service, but if there was a little more chance of seeing a bit of home soldiering as well as foreign soldiering, it would certainly tend to improve the numbers of those who come forward to enlist.
Two other points to which I wish to refer have already been dealt with by hon. Members on this side. One is the question of Guards' pay. When this question is reconsidered, as I think it should be and hope it will be, there should be remembered the case of young officers in the Brigade of Guards who have not received the same increase of pay which has been given to officers in other branches of the Service. The Guards' pay, to which reference has been made, was given in order to compensate for the greater cost of living in London. No one can pretend that the cost of living in London, as compared with other parts of the country, has gone down in any shape or form during the last few years. Therefore, there does not seem to be any reason why these officers should have been deprived of a rise given to officers in other branches of the Service, merely on the ground that they have received the extra pay known as Guards' pay, for the reason I have stated. Lastly, as the Member of this-House who probably has last come from the Regular Service, I wish to support very strongly what has been said on the subject of billeting, and the exposure of troops on manœuvres. It is not only on manœuvres that nights are spent by troops without covering of any kind. The Alder-shot troops go out sometimes for three, four, or five weeks in the summer. They very often leave barracks on Monday or Tuesday morning and return to barracks on the Saturday without having spent a single night even under canvas. It does not sound much to spend an occasional night in the open air; I do not think that it hurts anyone; but I agree that three or four nights in succession, in our climate, must affect the health of the troops. I am sure that it is an unpopular mode of training, and one which could easily be avoided by the employment of billeting. I have never yet, except on one exceptional occasion in New Zealand, had to billet any troops with which I had anything to do. If you asked an ordinary regimental officer to billet his company in a village or town he would not know how to set about it, because, although he has done it on paper, he has never had to do it in practice. If it could be introduced into our manœuvres and training, I am sure that it would improve the relations—which are good, but might be made better—between civilians and soldiers. It would certainly improve very considerably the efficiency of the Army if they were called upon to fight in a country where billets were necessary.
I should like to support what has been said in regard to billeting. It is very hard when men have to be out day after day in the pouring rain and Arrangements cannot be made to secure them a comfortable night after it. It does tell, no doubt, against the popularity of service in the Army, and I hope that some arrangements will be made for the protection of troops in bad weather. With regard to the employment of ex-soldiers, I cordially welcome the statement of the Secretary of State in his Memorandum, that the complete solution of the recruiting problem is bound up with this question. I have pointed out before that the first step necessary in the settlement of this question is the acknowledgment by the Government as a whole that they will no longer be a party to the present system. The right hon. Gentleman has spoken about blind alley employment. Could there be any greater blind alley employment than that which takes men at the age of 18, employs them during the seven best years of their life, and then turns them out upon the streets with no employment, and no career of any sort before them? The country owes it to these men, who serve in all sorts of trying climates, that a career should be provided for them. I ask the Secretary of State to obtain a public statement by the Prime Minister that two-thirds of all suitable vacancies in all Departments of the State should be reserved for soldiers on the completion of their term of service.
I will also ask that this principle should be extended to all municipalities and public bodies throughout the country. I would suggest that the Prime Minister's pronouncement on this subject, for which I ask, should be communicated to all municipalities by the President of the Local Government Board. When the Government has once given its official imprimatur to this proposal, it will readily be taken up by the great railway companies and private employers throughout the country. I am delighted to learn that Sir Matthew Nathan's Committee is now inquiring into the matter. I regret that we are getting on so slowly. We have only 26 per cent, of Government appointments for ex-soldiers so far, and the increase in the last two years, according to the last Return, is only 1.25 per cent. I hope to put down a Motion for another Return on the 31st March this year, and I hope that the Secretary of State will give me at the same time a Return of the information obtained by Sir Matthew Nathan's Committee as to the number of ex-soldiers employed by municipalities and other public bodies. It is most important that we should have this in a public return. I know that objections are raised to the employment of a large proportion of ex-soldiers. I know that in the event of sudden mobilisation, if there were too large a proportion of ex-soldiers in the police, the police might be left short-handed. The percentage at present, however, is so small that it could certainly be considerably increased without danger. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree to give me the return for which I shall ask, and to allow the other information to be published in conjunction with it. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman one or two questions regarding the treatment of officers. It would appear from statements in the Memorandum that the Government are unable to get cadets to fill the large buildings which they have put up for them at Sandhurst.
It being a Quarter-past Eight of the clock, further Proceeding was Postponed without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 4.
Mr. Lloyd George's Speeches
I beg to move, "That this House, contemplates with regret the repeated inaccuracies of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his gross and unfounded personal attacks upon individuals."
The Motion that stands in my name, and which I rise to move, relates to three points. First, there is a suggestion of repeated inaccuracies—
Tariff Reform.
Order, order.
There is the suggestion that these inaccuracies are the basis for personal attack; and thirdly, there is in the Motion an expression of regret of this House at these inaccuracies and these attacks. I am not here to-night to defend any persons in particular. The persons to whom I shall make reference are entirely unknown to me. I am not here as a landowner. I am not a landowner. Still less, am I here to be personally disagreeable to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whom I have always, in personal relationships at any rate, found to be genial and courteous. But the point of accuracy I consider to be one of the very first importance in the case of a man occupying the highest position in the financial world of our country. It is in all business circles one of the very first requirements that business men should be reliable. The proud boast that a man's word is as good as his bond is one of the traditional boasts of business men in this country. The man who is the head of our national finance, a man whose word can influence great questions relating to property, whether it be in land, or stocks, or valuable securities of any kind, should be far beyond the reach of any question as to the absolute reliability of the statements that he puts forward. It matters little whether those statements have relation to questions that are peculiarly in the department of finance, or whether they relate to the policy and propaganda which he may wish to pursue, and to succeed in forwarding. I say that if it be that the Chancellor, in his high position, has committed himself to inaccurate statements, to statements that will not bear investigation, it is not a question for himself or his party, but for Parliament and for the nation. I much prefer that statements that are being put forward on platforms in the country, and which are being talked about in all kinds of places in our land, should be brought forward. I think the right hon. Gentleman himself will agree with me that it is better to bring them forward here in this House of Commons than to go on to public platforms and make these statements.
nodded assent.
I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that he wears the robes of big men—of Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Goschen, Sir William Harcourt, Lord St. Aldwyn, and many others. I would suggest that he had better be lost in the amplitude of his robes than emerge with statements that will not stand investigation. The writer of the book called "The Real Lloyd George" says: —
"He keeps one eye on the crowd, the other is blinded by the limelight."
I do not know how this may be, but a few instances taken for convenience' sake from what is known as the right hon. Gentleman's Glasgow speech, I propose to bring before the House. I am sure the House will understand that it is for reasons of brevity, and in order that there may be ample time for reply, and that others may take part in this Debate, that I confine myself to this particular speech at Glasgow. I have been inundated with matter relating to all kinds of points—insurance, and I cannot say what besides. I am simply amazed at the volume of correspondence that the right hon. Gentleman himself must have had to deal with during recent years relative to the statements that he has made. I do not propose to dwell at greater length on that point, for the right hon. Gentleman will know better about it himself. I take, first of all, what the right hon. Gentleman said in his speech at Glasgow. He said:—
"In 1908 you wanted land. You had to go to the Duke of Montrose. Dukes are always in the habit of asking more for their land than it is really worth. He asked £26,000, he got £19,000. I do not suppose he was paying for the whole of it more than £9 or £10 a year to the Stirlingshire County Council. That is, the people of Glasgow had to pay him 2,000 years' purchase on the basis of his contribution to the public fund."
Here is a definite statement on particular points, unaffected by irrelevant questions as to the quality of the land or the character of individuals concerned. Questions of that kind are irrelevant. The question of policy is irrelevant in this matter. It is a definite statement purporting to be a statement of fact. What are the facts in this case? The £19,000 was paid on an arbitration satisfactory to the purchasers. [Laughter.] Hon. Members laugh, but I suppose the purchasers in this case knew what they were doing. I am given to understand that this particular property before long, at any rate in years to come, will be well worth£50,000 a year to the Glasgow Corporation. However that may be, they knew what they were doing. Now, let me try to continue. The £19,000 was paid on an arbitration. It included land purchased, but what the Chancellor did not state was that it also included land submerged, acclimatisation damage through sheep being removed, damage to shootings and fishings, allowances for building new farmhouses and offices, the originals being submerged, and allowances for planting and fencing and various other items; so that the actual price for the land sold was very much below£19,000. The suggested sale of the land at 2,000 years' purchase on the basis of a contribution to public funds is therefore absurd. I take another case. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made great play about the Highland clearances when he made an attack upon the Duke of Sutherland, in which, forsooth, he dragged in Ananias. The Chancellor of the Exchequer drags in Ananias as being outdone in perjury by the trustees of the duke. He flings taunts about very freely. What justification has he? Let me quote his words: —
"He had overlooked that his trustee had sent in their valuation for Death Duty purposes for the whole estate."
[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am afraid that cheer is premature.
"They had said it on oath; they had sworn that to the best of their judgment the whole of the million acres were worth £400,000. Does he mean to suggest those trustees have commuted perjury by swearing that the whole of the land was only worth one-third of what it was really worth?"
Now the trustees have replied to this and stated publicly that they had not sent in a valuation for Death Duty purposes. There was nothing of the kind to suggest it, and there is nothing in the Act compelling one. Further, if, as seems clear, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been looking into this case, he knew duty was only payable on property passing and there is power to deduct mortgages. The Sutherland estate had mortgages on it for large amounts. The figure mentioned by the executors in the affidavit is not the amount at which the estate could be sold but a rough estimate of that value less the amount of the mortgages in favour of third persons. Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer fair or accurate in his representation? Again, he says:—
"In the old days the chieftains had the right of hanging their subjects. In 1748 the Government thought, on the whole, they had better take that away from them, and the Duke of Sutherland claimed £10.000 compensation—he got £1,000."
Will it be believed there was no Duke of Sutherland at that time! What is the fact? The first Duke of Sutherland was an Englishman and a Liberal. He was the son of the Marquess of Stafford.
That makes it no better.
He was created duke in 1833. [An HON. MEMBER: "Shame!"] The hon. Member thinks it funny to say "Shame!" He was the duke of the alleged clearances. As a right hon. Gentleman near me says, there were no clearances, but of the alleged clearances, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had much to say about this. Now this man obtained his estate by marriage and by purchase. In 1812 there were no roads in the county and no bridges, except one. But he changed all this, so that twenty years after he had completed 450 miles of roads and 134 bridges. Roads and bridges are not deer forest. There was a controversy about the methods of clearing at that time, and an under-factor, Patrick Sellar, stood his trial at Inverness for harsh clearances. He was acquitted, and brought an action for slander and obtained substantial damages, so we are going over old ground on this occasion. If hon. Members will look up "Hansard," third series, No. 81, they will find that an hon. Member, Mr. J. Loch, stated in this House that from 1812 to 1833, the year the duke was created a duke and the year of his death, the county yielded him no rent, and that, in addition to the rental lost, more than £70,000 was spent for the benefit of the county and of the people dwelling in it. I think a good deal less than justice has been done to the memory of this dead man. His first misfortune seems to me that he was created a duke. One might refer to the millions of acres that were to be restored to agriculture. My Noble Friend the Member for West Perth pointed out that the last Report on Deer Forests, the Highlands and Islands Commission, scheduled 4,000 odd acres as being the only ground which showed signs of being old arable or fit for arable, but here the figure is put at millions of acres that are to be restored to a population which can live in great prosperity on the lands on which their ancestors starved. That is the hope.
At this very meeting the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not resist flinging a taunt at a man whose only fault seems to have been that he came in the path of the right hon. Gentleman, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer charged him with being present on a forged ticket, though he got his ticket legitimately and in a proper manner that Liberals get tickets to go to those meetings, and it required a solicitor's letter to get the necessary apology. My time is limited. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no," and "Go on!"] It is all very well to say "Go on!" and I could go on for some time, but I understand time is required by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself to reply, and I understand that other hon. Members desire to speak in the limited time at our disposal. I will say this. A policy that is based upon inaccuracies bodes ill for the success of that policy, or for the carrying out of that policy. I believe myself that this House must regret inaccuracies in a man occupying the position of the highest Minister of State in the realms of finance. I believe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself would prefer that these statements, supporting what he may think an important policy, should be accurate statements, and that it is very desirable that in the making of these statements personal attacks on individuals which will not bear investigation should be avoided, and I believe that this House, when instances of this kind are brought to its notice, should express its regret that these charges should ever have been made.
In rising to second this Motion, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will believe that I am speaking sincerely when I say that, like my hon. Friend, I do not wish to make anything which I shall say more offensive or unpleasant than the necessities of the case warrant. I am bound to state the facts. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it a practice and system as he goes from place to place to select a large landowner in the district and hold that man up to public odium, ridicule, and contempt. That is a novel course for Chancellers of the Exchequer to take, and the right hon. Gentleman will find no precedent for such a course in the careers of his illustrious predecessors. Whatever view the House may take with regard to such a course, there is one point upon which there will be unanimous agreement, and it is that, if such a course is adopted, it is absolutely incumbent upon the Minister to make the most careful inquiry, and to be absolutely accurate and fair in his statement of facts. In order to examine how far the Chancellor of the Exchequer has conformed to that rule I am bound to take instances, and in the selection of instances, I am bound to say that my only difficulty has been an embarrassment of choice.
The right hon. Gentleman's statements which falls in the category of this Motion, like the Report of the Land Inquiry Committee, may be divided into two volumes, Part I., Rural; and Part II., Urban. There would certainly have to be a special volume for Scotland, but, as a town Member, I propose to confine myself mainly to the urban aspect of the problem, and I propose to deal with four cases of which I have given the right hon. Gentleman notice, as I thought it was only fair to do so, as no man could be expected at a moment's notice to deal with all the statements made covering a long period of time. In the first case I propose to select, I have intentionally taken one going back some years, in order to show that it is not a recent practice only, but that it has continued for years. The first case that I take is that of the Duke of Westminster. In this case the duke granted the renewal of a lease to Mr. Gorringe, and the way in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer described that transaction was this:— if only it will have the effect of damaging landowners. That was the statement, but what are the facts? The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that Mr. Gorringe had a lease of the premises at a few hundred pounds ground rent, but that was absolutely untrue. It is proved to be untrue by a document publicly filed, namely, the prospectus of Frederick Gorringe, Limited, which shows and states that Mr. Gorringe was not paying a few hundred pounds ground rent, but he was actually paying a rent £3,665, and it was only increased by £335, making £4,000.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated the facts as if the fine of £50,000 had been paid only respect of the renewal of the old lease, but that was not the case, because it was paid not only in respect of the lease, but in respect of the renewal of the old lease of four additional shops. [Laughter.] I do not know what hon. Members opposite find to laugh at in that. It was paid in respect of the granting of a fresh lease of four shops of very great value at a rent of £1,200. The right hon. Gentleman speaks as if it was a wicked thing for a landlord to demand a fine, but the right hon. Gentleman as a landlord—because the Commissioners of Woods and Forests are under the control of the Treasury—takes into the Exchequer whatever fines they impose. If these facts be converted into terms of rental, then in this case the rental would be found altogether a perfectly reasonable one, having regard to the area and the district. The right hon. Gentleman put it as if Mr. Gorringe was hardly used, but what are the facts? Mr. Gorringe obtained this renewal of the lease with a view to its sale to the company he was forming; he sold it to that company with other assets for £206,000, and in the prospectus itself the benefit of this particular agreement, together with the fag-end of the old lease, is represented as an asset worth £15,000.
He paid £50 for it.
I must ask hon. Members to listen to the Debate without interrupting. There is not a long time given for this Debate, and on a question of this kind it is advisable that hon. Members on both sides should listen in silence.
I must correct the misapprehension of the hon. Member for Stoke. What was assigned to the company was not only the rights under the agreement, but the liabilities as well; taking rights and liabilities together they treated the lease as an asset worth £15,000 in the prospectus. All I can say is if a duke makes an agreement with me, and I can transfer that agreement to a company, and the agreement with its rights and liabilities can be treated as an asset worth £15,000, if that be blackmail, then I hope I may be blackmailed by a duke every day of my life. No. Sir, the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly justified in attacking the leasehold system. Speaking for myself, I should like to see some changes in that, system, but what I do say is that the right Gentleman is not entitled to attack an individual transaction of a private individual, to extort and distort and misrepresent the facts, and then hold that up as an example of extortion under the leasehold system. I will pass from that now to a case which relates to my own Constituency of St. Pancras. The statement which the right hon. Gentleman made there was this:— number of separate freehold estates in St. Pancras is 1,550. I wrote a letter to the "Times" calling attention to these facts. The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not reply himself, but an apologist replied for him. I believe he is the gentleman from whom the Chancellor of the Exchequer obtained the information, because the House may remember that I asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he had any official information, and he replied in the negative, but told me that he had derived his information from "a local gentleman who knows." The House was somewhat exercised as to who the local gentleman was, and no doubt they thought that it was some surveyor of experience and knowledge in St. Pancras. I believe that the local gentleman who knows is the Liberal candidate for St. Pancras, and that his chief connection with that borough has been that for a few years he has unsuccessfully wooed the suffrages of the electors.
The gentleman who knows put forward the view that, although there might be 1,550 estates, yet ten of them owned substantially the whole of the value, and that the remainder were practically a negligible quantity. He asked me this question: Does Mr. Cassel deny that two-thirds of the £2,500,000 annual value has passed, or will duly pass, into the hands of some ten of these estates? He had named twenty-six. That was very rash of him. He had named twenty-six, of which I was to select Sen. The first thing that occurs to me is this: If ten own practically the whole value, why did he name twenty-six for me to select from? It shows that the whole thing is pure guess work. I understand that the Chancellor of the Exchequer says that is the challenge from which I ran away. I am conscious of my defects, but I believe one of them is not running away, either from the right hon. Gentleman or from his informer. I answered that query in two letters to the "Times," and I propose to give the House now completed proof why that must be an entirely erroneous theory. I have been in personal communication with each of the twenty-six largest estates who the gentleman who knows named, except the railway companies and the Government. I suppose hardly anyone who listened in that audience would have supposed that one of the estates to which the right hon. Gentleman was referring was the Government, although the gentleman who knows puts the Government among his twenty-six and five railway companies.
We cannot in this matter come to a conclusion by dealing with areas, because areas are really no indication of value. I discovered that when I began to examine this problem. A single set of business premises, for instance, will be more valuable than acres of back streets in another part of the borough, and in St. Pancras large business houses, such as those in Tottenham Court Road, very largely own their own freehold, although the right hon. Gentleman may not have been aware of it. I found it necessary for that reason to obtain from these owners their actual rentals and the actual rateable value of their property, and I have with me here their replies. The first thing which astonished me was to get a letter from one of the twenty-six named by the gentleman who knows, informing me that he has not got a single square inch of land. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman knows which of them it is or whether he would like me to inform him. Another of them said that although they owned not a square inch themselves, it might be that in the capacity of trustees for one of the Royal Hospitals they might own some land. The first one I referred to was the Dean of St. Paul's, and he said that neither in his individual nor in his corporate capacity as the Dean and Chapter of St. Paul's did he own a single square inch of land, although he was named as one of the largest landowners from whom I was to select ten. There were only twelve private landowners among them. I have taken these twelve — I will give the right hon. Gentleman the benefit of the extra two — and the whole of these twelve have been good enough to inform me what are the rentals and the rateable value of their property. I am not at liberty to disclose individual amounts, but the total amount of the gross rental of these twelve estates does not exceed £85,000. That is the gross rental, without any allowance for expenses whatever, and the rateable values of these properties, which the owners have obtained from the proper authority, amount to less than £300,000 as compared with £2,500,000.
9.0 P.M.
Then, also, the question arose, How far is it right to say that these owners would, within a generation, become entitled to that rateable value? On that point I consulted a leading firm of estate agents and surveyors in St. Pancras—the oldest established firm in the borough—and they told me no such assumption can be made. They are acquainted with the properties and state that, in many cases, the buildings are very old, and, on the termination of the leases, will have to be rebuilt, and the landlord cannot expect to get anything more than a ground rent on the new leases. In the case of three estates most of the leases have already actually fallen in. The right hon. Gentleman said I ran away from a challenge. I gave him one. In one of my letters I asked him whether he would name the ten landlords to whom he was referring, and whether he could tell me what were their rents and rateable value. I repeat that challenge to him tonight, and I also ask him if he can tell me by what other process of reasoning he arrived at these marvellous calculations. There is one other argument, and it will interest him as Chancellor of the Exchequer. In the last Inland Revenue Report for which the figures are available we are told that only sixty-six persons in the United Kingdom are assessed to pay Super-tax on £100,000. When I put the question how many there were assessed at £250,000, I was told the number was so small that it was undesirable to give the figure. I doubt whether there are many more than ten in the United Kingdom, drawing their wealth from whatever sources, who pay on as much as £250,000 a year, yet the right hon. Gentleman conveyed to an audience, who were ignorant of these matters, and he would have them believe that, within a generation, there will be ten landlords drawing an average of £250,000 a year each from rents arising in a single Metropolitan borough, and that by no means the wealthiest of the boroughs of London. I can only say if the right hon. Gentleman reflected for a moment, if he were not so blinded by his desire to do injury to the landlords, he would not have been betrayed in making a statement so completely divorced from every semblance of probability or truth. I have not dealt with the other landlords mentioned by the "gentleman who knows." They were educational and charitable institutions, mostly under the control of the Charity Commissioners or the Board of Education, and I have their rentals and the record of their property. I shall wait and see whether the right hon. Gentleman puts these forward as the ten.
I shall now ask the House to accompany the right hon. Gentleman from the Holloway Empire to Glasgow. A large landowner there is the Duke of Montrose, and so he came in for the right hon. Gentleman's attention. There were two cases the right hon. Gentleman dealt with in connection with which he associated the name of the Duke of Montrose. [HON. MEMBERS; "No, no!"] He associated with them the name of the duke. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I am not going to shirk that issue. I accept to the full the statement that the right hon. Gentleman did not intend that, but I say this, if he did not intend to refer to the Duke of Montrose, when he found he had spoken of him in such a way to leave the newspapers and any reasonable man to infer that, it was his bounden duty to make honourable reparation. Instead of that, what did the right hon. Gentleman do? He made an apology indeed, but it was an apology in which he made an attack almost more violent than the original attack, and into it he introduced a whole lot of irrelevant matter. Upon that I am not going to comment—indeed, I could make no comment within the limits of Parliamentary order. I will now come to a first case I was going to deal with. The Glasgow Corporation, under an Act of 1885, as varied by an Order of 1902, had obtained power to put a dam across the Arklet waters, thereby raising the level of Loch Arklet, and diverting the water supply entirely. In doing so they were obliged to submerge 380 acres of the duke's land, and in respect of that damage an arbitrator, agreed to by both parties, a most competent gentleman, awarded the duke £19,000.
The objections which the right hon. Gentleman takes with reference to that transaction are as follows: In the first place, he said the duke asked for £26,000 and only got £19,000, and, in the second place, he says the duke obtained 2,000 years' purchase on the rateable value on which he was paying rates. The way in which the right hon. Gentleman arrives at that conclusion is by putting the rateable value at 6d. per acre, which, for 380 acres, gives £9 10s., and £9 10s. at 2,000 years' purchase would represent £19,000. But that 2,000 years' purchase is a pure figment of the imagination of the right hon. Gentleman. These 380 acres were not separately rated in the rate-books at all; they formed part of four farms which were separately rated, and the whole question is, What part of the total rent is allocated to these 380 acres? I do not know on what principle the right hon. Gentleman proceeded, but, so far as I can see, all he did was to average the total rent over the whole farm. Nothing more unfair or more unreasonable could be imagined, because what would be the position? These four farms consisted mainly of high mountain pasture land. These 380 acres were meadow land and hay land, which provided the winter hay for the sheep and cattle on these farms. They were absolutely essential for the wintering of the cattle and sheep on the farm. Without them the farms would be like eyeless farms; they were the very eyes of the farm. Now, to show the absurdity of the right hon. Gentleman's statement, I am going to prove from the mouth of witnesses for the corporation what are the facts. The right hon. Gentleman has given, as his description of this ground, that it is marshy and swampy, and he only allocated £9 10s. out of the £700 rent of these farms to these 380 acres. What, however, do the witnesses for the corporation allocate? Mr. Greenlees allocated £129, Mr. Buchanan £124, Mr. Atkin £152, and Mr. Malcolm £149. [An HON. MEMBER: "They were valuators."] They were witnesses who gave evidence for the corporation, and one can hardly assume that the tendency of such witnesses would be to put the value too high. Although their business was to put the value low, they put it at from 1,200 to 1,500 per cent, higher than the right hon. Gentleman.
What a pity that the right hon. Gentleman was not a witness for the corporation. What an asset he would have been! If you accept the evidence of the witnesses for the corporation, that would give you—taking the part which the arbitrator allocated for land—not 2,000 years' purchase, but 112 years' purchase. That is the evidence of the witnesses for the corporation. Let me come to the evidence of the duke's witnesses. Their evidence was this: that, although the rental of the farms was then £700, it had fallen to about one-half of what it was worth before these powers were obtained by the corporation, so that the every existence of these powers had lowered the value of the land by about one-half. What the tenants said was this: "We have no security. At any moment the corporation may step in," therefore they compelled the reduction of their rents. Moreover, the witnesses put it that though this meadow land was necessary for wintering the cattle and the sheep, it was doubtful whether the duke could obtain any tenants for the farms at all. That appears to be the view adopted by the arbitrator, and it is a view which has been proved to be true by the facts. What has happened? In the case of two of these farms, tenants who had held them all their lives, whose forbears had been on the farm before them, gave notice to quit. One of the farms is still on the duke's hands untenanted, and with regard to the other, he has had to go to an expenditure of £4,000 before he could find a tenant at a greatly reduced rent. What is it that the right hon. Gentleman has included in his 2,000 years' purchase? He has included the loss incurred on the sale of the stock of sheep, which had to be reduced in consequence of these particular lands being taken. How could you possibly include that in estimating how many years' purchase was being paid for the land. According to the right hon. Gentleman's version, on that ground alone he puts on thirty years' purchase simply because the duke was compensated for the loss he would incur in selling the sheep in consequence of being bound to reduce the stock.
There is one other argument I am going to give the right hon. Gentleman to show that his figures really must be absurd. It is taken from the correspondence between the duke's agents and the corporation. That correspondence has hitherto been under the seal of confidence, but in consequence of the public attack made by the right hon. Gentleman, the duke in his defence is entitled to use it. That correspondence, which I have here, shows that the corporation, of their own accord, actually offered a larger sum than that awarded by the arbitrator on the arbitration. They offered a larger sum subject to this reservation, which it is only fair to state, that it was not to include any temporary or unforseen damage done by the contractors in carrying out the work. The offer was made in a letter written by Sir J. Marwick to Messrs. Dundas and Wilson on 21st May, 1902, the offer being £19,300. The duke himself was away with his regiment in South Africa, but his commissioner accepted that offer, subject only to the condition that he would not allow it to include the temporary and unforseen damage done by the contractors, because he felt he could not take the responsibility for such an incalculable amount. If the duke had been in England, in all possibility the matter would have been settled' by agreement.
I have still to face the fact upon which the right hon. Gentleman dwelt with such obloquy at his meeting, that £26,500 was demanded. All I can say about that is this: from the moment the parties were at arm's length the duke left the whole matter in the hands of his legal advisers. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I wonder whether anyone else would not have done the same. He did not make any attempt to interfere with the figure which they thought it right to place upon it. The relations between the duke and the corporation throughout, until the right hon. Gentleman intervened, had been of the most friendly character. To prove that I need only quote from a book written by the then Town Clerk of Glasgow, Sir J. Marwick, who, writing in his book, "The Water Supply of the City of Glasgow," which refers to the very Act under which these works were executed, said:— merely acquired less than 1½ acres for £3,270. In addition to that there was an undertaking by the owner to fence, plant, and maintain an additional area of more than an acre, to maintain the river bank, and to reconstruct 148 yards of street. The total area was not less than 1½ acres, but more than 2½ acres. The assessed rental was not £3 10s., but £7 18s. The net price received, after allowing for costs incurred by the owners, was not £3,270, but £2,620. In this case the owner had actually given an option to a builder to feu this very land at 10s. per year, which was the usual rate in that district. It was at the request of the School Board that that bargain went off. The School Board was ready to take this land, and although the usual rate of feuing land in that part is 10s. a year, the School Board got it 4s. 1¼d. a year. Moreover the School Board, I have the authority of the owner to say, never to him or to his agent, raised a single word of objection. They never asked for a cheaper site. The right hon. Gentleman knows there is not a more public spirited estate or one which is more generous in its dealings towards public bodies than this particular estate. I might cite cases of parks given without consideration to public authorities. These cases seem to escape the attention of the right hon. Getnleman, and with an estate like this the right hon. Gentleman under these circumstances thinks it necessary, by exaggerating all the figures and by distorting all the facts, to present them in such a way that the "Star" newspaper actually cites this case as a flagrant example of landlord greed. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly at liberty to say that the Corporation ought to be able to obtain their land more cheaply and that the law ought to be altered in that respect; but, again, he has not the right in individual transactions to exaggerate, distort, and pervert the facts and hold an individual case up as being extortionate. There was one statement made by the right hon. Gentleman when speaking to children in a Brecknockshire school:— Gentleman's speeches. I believed it had, but I believe that from that it will recover. But there is another kind of credit which has been more seriously placed in jeopardy. There is another kind of credit which has been more gravely imperilled, and that is the credit and dignity which attaches to the high office which the right hon. Gentleman holds.
There is one observation which fell from the Mover of this Resolution with which I profoundly agree—that it is time, at last, that these things should be brought to the test of a Debate in the House of Commons. It is no fault of mine that this is the first opportunity I have had of answering these allegations. I remember perfectly well the hon. and learned Gentleman referred to a speech I made at Limehouse five years ago. The Gorringe case was then debated in the Press; there was some sort of accusation made, and I repeatedly on the floor of this House challenged hon. Members opposite to repeat those allegations and give me an opportunity during a Debate of replying to them. Never did they accept that challenge.
I challenged you.
I remember that incident, and the moment I made the challenge the hon. Member stopped.
I raised the case on the Budget, and the right hon. Gentleman stated that he would meet me on another occasion.
The hon. Member's recollection is perfectly inaccurate. I have been refreshing my memory by referring to these challenges which I repeatedly made. Does the hon. Member mean to say that he went through all these particulars and arraigned the Gorringe case during those Debates? If he can point out to me a single quarter-column of the OFFICIAL REPORT in which he has done so, I shall certainly withdraw on the spot; but he knows that is not the case. On the contrary, whenever I put the challenge, nothing was ever said about it, and it is only now, five years after the event, that we hear of it. Let me give another case. The other day I was told that there was going to be a great discussion upon my speeches during the Recess. That was the notice which was given in the public Press. I was to have the "time of my life. "What happened? The Montrose case, the Stirling-Maxwell case, the St. Pancras case, were all to be dished up. There was a whole evening before us from four o'clock until eleven. The Mover got up and discussed the effects of the Budget of 1909. The Seconder followed on the same lines. I waited for the third speaker. Not a word about any of these cases. I was fully prepared with the facts, which I am going now to give to the House. I asked the Front Bench whether they were going to get up, and I was told that they would not get up until I had spoken. After I had spoken, then came the Sutherland case, the Montrose case, the Cathcart case, and the Gorringe case—after the Speaker had ruled that I could not reply. This is not the best opportunity, because there are only two hours and forty-five minutes, and I am entitled to my share of them. If I have to trench upon the time which the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. F. E. Smith) is to take for his reply, it is no fault of mine, because I gave fair warning of the time I should expect.
I will come to the challenge which has been addressed to me upon these cases. Let me first of all thank both hon. Members for the courtesy with which they gave me notice of the particular cases which they were going to raise. I delivered, I think, twelve speeches during the Recess on the land question—speeches, I am afraid, of inordinate length. Nine of those speeches passed without question at the time. Three of them are the subject of this Debate—three or four statements made in those three speeches. There is another point—I have been repeatedly told that I know nothing about agriculture. It is very remarkable that, although all the recent speeches I have delivered have been in connection with the rural question, not a single statement that I have made in reference to that question has been questioned to-night. [An HON. MEMBER: "They have been questioned outside."] I am coming to that. It is all very well to do it outside. Why do you not do it here? Let us see what happened during the Recess. There was no part of the statements I made which was so repeatedly challenged as the statement with respect to the depredations of game. I gave instances. Why are these cases not challenged here to-night? [An HON. MEMBER: "There is not time."] They have so much time to spare that they are not merely going to rake up speeches during the last few weeks, but they must needs hark back five years. And yet they say there is no time! This is the challenge—it is on the ground that I have indulged in attacks upon persons. First of all, let me congratulate the Leader of the Opposition. The race to which he belongs is very erroneously charged with not possessing a sense of humour. I never thought so, but if I had ever had any doubt on the matter, I should not have any after I have seen the name of the Gentleman he has chosen to rebuke me on behalf of the Front Bench for making personal attacks. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that my habit was to pick the name of a great landowner in the particular district where I was addressing a meeting. He has given cases to which I referred in my recent speeches—the St. Pancras case, the Loch Arklet case, the Cathcart case, and the Sutherland case. In only one of these cases did I ever mention a name.
Did you not mention the Duke of Sutherland?
I never mentioned the name of the Duke of Sutherland. In the speeches which I have delivered on the Highland clearances I referred to the whole of the clearances in the Highlands, which are not merely Sutherland clearances. The Duke of Sutherland himself rushed into print and started a controversy in which he began to publish all about his private affairs. I never said a word about him in any speech I had made up to that point. [An HON. MEMBER: "You did by innuendo."] There was no innuendo. I was referring to the whole of the Highland clearances. There was no reason why he should step in more than the others. I never mentioned Sir John Stirling Maxwell. In the St. Pancras case I never mentioned the landowner by name. There was only one landowner I mentioned by name, and that was in the Loch Arklet case. I will say more than that. If the hon. and learned Gentleman will do me the honour to go through the whole of my speeches, he will find that I hardly ever mentioned a name. There was only another duke I mentioned, and that was the Duke of Bedford. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Duke of Westminster."] I did not mention the Duke of Westminster in the recent speeches I am referring to. I only mentioned the Duke of Bedford in order to state that he was reputed to be a good landowner. The Duke of Montrose, so far as I can recollect, was the only name I selected, and this is called personal attacks upon landlords. The hon. Gentleman may say, "You referred to particulars of the case, and when you refer to particulars you are practically indicating the landlord." I ask him how are you to establish a case that too much is demanded from public bodies in respect of land used for public purposes unless you are going to give particular illustrations? Supposing I made a general sweeping statement of that kind, the hon. and learned Gentleman himself knows perfectly well that that is true, but the first demand would be that I should give facts and not sweeping generalities. It would be said that not a single figure or fact was ever advanced. You have to give these illustrations in order to establish your case. I carefully avoided dragging in names, and there is only one name I have mentioned during the whole of this time. So much for personalities.
I shall now take each of these cases in their order. The first is the Gorringe case. I think, when the facts of the Gorringe case are presented, the hon. and learned Gentleman will realise that the Unionist party in 1909 acted wisely in not giving it unnecessary publicity by Debate in the House. What are the facts stated by the hon. Gentleman?—not stated quite fully, I would remind him. The lease in respect of these premises was a lease with a ground rent of £350, or rather a group of leases, because there were several of them. They were taken by tradesmen in the main. They built up the businesses. They improved their premises, and largely by their own exertions, and their own expenditure of capital, they created the value. Not a penny, let it be remembered, was contributed by the Westminister estate. Mr. Gorringe comes along and buys up these leases. He buys them at the improved value which these men had created, but he paid for them, so that by the time they got into his hands he had to pay £3,600. To whom? To the men who had created the value. If he had confiscated the value which they had created, if he had taken it away, then there would be some sort of case for the hon. Gentleman, but he paid full value to these people. Then the lease expired, and the Westminster estate comes along. The rent is put at £4,000, and there is a £50,000 premium demanded. It is true that there were four shops included, as I pointed out in a letter to the "Times" in 1909. For these there was a special ground rent of £1,200. Why was it demanded? Mr. Gorringe could not have left that place. He had built up his business there. If he had left that place, the whole of his exertions would have been thrown away; the work of his lifetime would have been lost; he would have had to begin afresh somewhere else; and the Westminster estate undoubtedly took advantage of that fact and demanded an increased ground rent, and increased the ground rents, as far as they were concerned, from £350 to £4,000, because Mr. Gorringe had paid for value created by the former occupiers.
What does the Crown do?
I cannot answer twenty points at once. I am answering the points on which I have been challenged. Notice the difference. Mr. Gorringe bought from other people the fruits of their own labour, and paid for it in full. The Westminster estate had not contributed a sixpence to the building up of the value, yet they took the whole, not merely Mr. Gorringe's value, all the value which he had created, but they took, in addition to that, the value belonging to others which he had paid for. Let me point out another difference, because I am dealing here, let the hon. and learned Gentleman remember, with the question of landlords' contributions to the public funds out of properties of this kind. The gentlemen who built up this value and Mr. Gorringe were contributing to local expenditure, which was helping to create the value—on what basis? On the basis of the full value of the property including the ground rent. As the value went up, up went Mr. Gorringe's contribution to the rates. The Westminster estate was not contributing during the whole of this time a single sixpence. What is still more, it may be asked: Who is paying rates to the local authority in respect of the £4,000 ground rent received from the Gorringe shareholders? Not the Westminster estate, but the Gorringe shareholders, who are paying them now. The Gorringe case, in addition to being a good illustration of the injustice of landowners receiving great values created by local and municipal authorities without making contributions, is an illustration also of the injustice from which traders are suffering. The hon. and learned Gentleman has told us—and I shall have something to say about that later on—that he does not approve of the present leasehold system. He thinks that it is inflicting grievances upon people. He would like to see it amended. Does he defend the continuation of the system under which the Westminster estate would exact £4,000 a year ground rent and £50,000, in addition to that, for premiums under these conditions? Does he?
That is not the point with which I was dealing. The point is not whether the law should be changed, but whether the right hon. Gentleman correctly represented the facts.
That is what I meant when I said that the hon. and learned Gentleman is running away. This is a very vital issue, and for this reason: I am told that the Opposition are committed to redress the grievances of town tenants. I want to know this—and I think that I am entitled to ask it—Does he say that the proposals of that party will make no difference in cases like the Gorringe case? If they do not, then I think the sooner the traders of this country know that the better.
made an observation which was inaudible.
The hon. and learned Gentleman need not skulk behind there. [Interruption.]
Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to address the Chair?
Certainly; but it is really rather difficult when I am challenged by all sorts of interruptions from the other side—
That is just the difficulty in which the Chair is put. If interchanges take place across the floor of the House below the Gangway, it is impossible for the Chair to follow this Debate. If the rule is adhered to that Members should address the Chair, then those incidents will not happen.
I wish, of course, that that were so, but, if it is not, it is rather more than Celtic human nature can stand. I now come to the Cathcart case. The hon. and learned Gentleman said—[Interruption]—I am referring to something which the hon. and learned Gentleman said, and I am entitled to look at him. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that the way in which I put that sentence in rather looked as if I had connected the Duke with the Cathcart case. I said at the very first opportunity that I never intended it. What is still more, hon. Friends of mine who are there said that that was not their impression. I am entitled to say more than that: that was also not the impression made upon those who read the speech. The hon. and learned Member for Warwick (Mr. Pollock) delivered a very solemn admonition upon the duty of perfect accuracy in stating a case, but he is a King's Counsel, and a leading one. He states cases every day of his life, and he has had a training which I have never had in stating cases. Listen now to what he said when attacking me when I had no opportunity of replying. This is what he said. He talked about the Cathcart case, and he said:— in mind when he comes to deliver his next admonition, for it is much easier in the excitement of a great public meeting to fall into an inadvertency. Let me give the facts of the Cathcart case. The Cathcart case was a case where land was purchased by the Cathcart School Board. The hon. and learned Gentleman did me the honour—I am not complaining about it—to quote the words which I used, but I never said a word about the price being too much; I never said it was too much; the only point I made was that the proprietor of the land was not paying on the basis of the real value. That is the only point I made, and I maintain it. The hon. Gentleman said that I stated that these figures had been challenged, and that I had spoken prematurely. These figures had been given in the House of Commons in reply to two questions two or three years ago by the Secretary for Scotland. I took them from the OFFICIAI REPORT. I inquired whether they had been challenged, and found that they have not been challenged during the whole of the two or three years. Mr. Sinclair was the Secretary for Scotland at that time. What were the figures? The valuation roll shows that this property was on the roll for £3 10s., and it was sold for £3,270, and that was 920 years' purchase. The valuation was stated in the House of Commons two or three years ago, and was never challenged. What is the answer? The first answer is this, or, rather, there is only one answer, and that is that you had not estimated the price of the plot of ground because there was expenditure, and the proprietor had expended £600 for making up the street. The hon. Gentleman who lectures me did not state the whole of the facts. He omitted the very essential fact that the street was not so much for the school premises as for the adjoining property of the landowners. But he attributes the whole of this expenditure to the school board. If the hon. Gentleman only looks at the map where the buildings are marked out he would see that no one could go there unless a road was made. Why was not that put down to the account of the owners?
The second fact to which the hon. Gentleman wants an answer is this, and it is an important one, that, in addition to the £3,270, the school board had to enter into a contract to pay £909 for the purpose of making up the street for the adjoining property of Sir John Stirling Maxwell. If the £600 is to be deducted the £900 should be added, but they did not. The hon. and learned Gentleman was so severe upon me for omitting to refer to what he described as essential facts, but why did he not state those two little facts? Supposing the £900 had not been asked, and the £600 be deducted, what is the difference? I said the number of years purchase was 920 years, but the hon. and learned gentleman, says "No, only 750 years." I really do not want a better case than the figures given by the hon. and learned Gentleman himself. The only case I made was as to the value: whether the value was too high or too low is a point about which I expressed no opinion: I only said that the value was not the value upon which the owners paid the rates which they ought to have paid.
Let us now take the Loch Arklet case, in which the Corporation of Glasgow had paid I think some thousands of pounds for storing the water of Loch Arklet, as another reservoir. In addition to that, £8,000 was paid to prevent fencing in the watersheds of Loch Arklet and Loch Katrine. They wanted to raise the level of Lake Arklet by 22 feet. In doing that some 383 acres of land were submerged. Those 383 acres form part of four farms which were in the aggregate over 11,000 acres. The total rents for the farm were £710. It was pointed out by one of the witnesses that £100 of that really ought to go to the hotel buildings.
10.0 P.M.
The real rent, therefore, of the land was £610, not for the 383 acres which were taken, but for the whole 11,000 odd acres. That is the rental of the whole of the land, or at the rate of 1s. per acre. The net rent, making the allowance that I made in the Budget of 1909, was 9d. per acre. The hon. Gentleman who stated the case did not state that the whole of the buildings were on the part which which was not submerged, with two exceptions. One farm building was submerged, and the corporation had to replace it. That is another mistake he made. I deplore these inaccuracies. The hon. Gentleman, in his most inaccurate speech, stated that this building had to be taken out of the £19,000, and that the planting had to be taken out and the fencing. He is wrong. The building was added to the £19,000, and the fencing was added to the £19,000. I have got here the award, and if the hon. Gentleman really challenges me, I will give it to him, but I do not wish to occupy too much time. The fencing, and the £450 for the building—all that was added, and the building of a boathouse was added and bridges were added. He said they were taken off, but they were all added to the £19,000. All that is omitted in the most inaccurate speech of the hon. Gentleman. I do not say that he would misinform the House—I am sure he did not want to mislead them. He is quite incapable of it. He was misinformed; he just slipped into those inaccuracies, and I am very glad of this opportunity of putting him right. For these 383 acres of land, out of a total of 11,000 acres, or one-thirtieth of the whole, the Glasgow Corporation had to pay, not merely the £19,000, but £2,000 in addition for those works, or £21,000 in all, which is more than thirty years' purchase for the whole 11,000 acres, and that is the transaction they defend. That is not all. The hon. and learned Gentleman said this, after all, was the eye of the whole farm. It always is. If, instead of having the reservoir down there, they had put it up on the hill, it would still have been the eye of the farm. Evidence was given by the factor of Sir John Stirling-Maxwell. He was the factor of 200,000 acres of land just like this, and he is a strong Conservative. First of all, the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for one of the Divisions of Edinburgh must accept, I am afraid, a very large share of responsibility for the largeness of this compensation. I read with very great interest and, if he will allow me to say so, with immense admiration his conduct of this case, and if I made any apology at all it would be simply on this ground, that the duke is not responsible, but the hon. and learned Gentleman is. The hon. and learned Gentleman, when he came to that part of the case where he parted with the description of the beautiful arable land, most of which is swamp, and where, according to Sir John Stirling-Maxwell's factor, it is dangerous for sheep to get anywhere near, although it was beautiful arable land—when he parted from that, and it was necessary to describe not productiveness but beauty and sublimity, waving corn was not the thing then. What did he describe this 383 acres of beautiful land as? He called it a "wild Highland glen," and he said, with a picturesqueness that made me envy his resources, "Here are tourists passing that way to the Trossacks, and what will happen to this beautiful wild Highland scenery which will be converted into a muddy swamp," and because those people are deprived of the beauty of that scenery he claimed £1,200 for the duke. Let me pay a tribute to him. He got most of it.
The factor of Sir John Stirling-Maxwell said that 50 acres of this are absolutely intraversable swamp and there are 37 acres from which in the old days they would probably get hay, but recently they had not been working hay. The rest was hill, pasture, and heather, much of which was so bad that no grouse could live in it. That is the eye of the farm, and what does the arbitrator give him for land of this sort—swamp, heather, rough pasture, with only a sheep to a couple of acres—what did he give him? He gave £50 an acre, the price which you would give for some of the very best land in England or Wales. And this is the transaction which is defended! Again quoting this factor, he said that there was a farm which was better on his property in Inverness-shire, which was let at 9d. an acre; another farm he gave was 8d. an acre; another, I think, was 4½d. [HON. MEMBERS: "Chair."] I apologise. [An HON. MEMBER: "We cannot hear you if you address the Labour Benches."] The hon. and learned Gentleman sneered at me because I put it at 6d. an acre. Here is the evidence of this great Conservative landowner's factor pointing out that very much better land had been let at 9d., 8d., and 4½d., with buildings upon some of it, and there were no buildings on this. I therefore took the figure at that price. Upon that the Duke of Montrose was paying 9d. in the £ to the Stirling County Council. That would make the 9s. or 10s. which I gave. I say that it is absolutely justified by the evidence which was given.
The hon. and learned Gentleman asks, "What about the arbitrator?" I have said about the arbitrator that he gave £50 an acre. I will say more about him. His first award was for £21,000. Then he discovered that he had allowed the Duke of Montrose for one part of the property twice over. There was an appeal to him, and he had to take off £2,000. The hon. and learned Gentleman charges speakers at public meeting with inaccuracy, when this arbitrator, to whom he pins his faith, had actually made that mistake in a careful calculation and judgment. Both hon. Members said that the corporation made big offers. Of course it did. There is one thing emerging more and more clearly from every investigation, and that is that the price which you pay at an auction, or the price which is paid in a transaction between man and man, has no sort of relation to the price which a public authority has to pay in arbitration. Local authorities are coming more and more to the conclusion that it is idle to go to arbitration, and they make the biggest offer they possibly can in order to avert costs. The costs in this case were £5,000. They know perfectly well that the principles of the arbitration room are not the principles of the auction room. You may have to pay forty-five years' purchase where you would only pay twenty years' purchase elsewhere. Consequently, to quote the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham—and I do not know a better illustration of his words than this:
The first.
Very well.
May I interrupt?
No, not now. I will quote an authority:—
"In the history of the Highland glens there is a black page in the account of the private ownership in land, and if it were to form a precedent, we should have an excuse for more drastic legislation than any which the wildest reformer has ever proposed."
Who wrote that?
I will tell you presently— Throughout the many years that I found myself in bitter opposition to him I never refrained from acknowledging that. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said:—
That is the answer to this charge. I come to a conclusion, though I am very much afraid that I am open to the suggestion that I have not replied to certain things that have been said, but I promised the right hon. and learned Gentleman to sit down to time. There is one thing, however, I would like to say upon this subject. I am told that when I said the valuation given for Death Duty purposes was only £400,000, I suppressed facts, and that it ought to have been three times the amount, or £1,200,000. As a matter of fact, I understated the value. If the hon. and learned Gentleman will take the trouble to work out the figures on the basis of the duke's own offer— 25s. for the 400,000 acres of the poorest land in the country—there is still between 500,000 and 600,000 acres left. Will the House follow this? On the valuation roll of the county the land which is left is twice as valuable as the land which is offered. Working it out on that basis, the whole of this land is worth £1,900,000. When it is valued for Death Duty purposes it is £400,000. The hon. Member who moved this Motion said the mortgages were not deducted. Is it suggested that the mortgages make even an appreciable difference in that chasm between that £400,000 and £1,900,000? The mortgages would not bring down the £1,800,000 or £1,900,000 to anywhere near £1,200,000, and if the hon. Gentleman asked his informant he would have discovered that, and to suggest that they did was a thoroughly disingenuous thing to do. What it does prove is the principle which I laid down in the two cases that land has one valuation when it is sold to the public, and it has another valuation when it contributes to the public. I cannot deal with the other cases—I had all the cases here—therefore I should like to sum up, and this is what I have got to say. The most significant thing about this Debate is that although the illustrations which I have used to advance the cause are to be questioned, the cause itself has never been challenged. In fact all the evils which I call attention to have been admitted. You may challenge my style and my methods of speech; and you do it. You may think you would do it infinitely better yourselves. The hon. and learned Gentleman, in one of his letters, ended up by saying what he deplored about this sort of exaggeration was that it did so much damage to the cause we all had at heart. Ho said something to the same effect tonight.
I never said anything of the kind.
Let me deal with the hon. and learned Gentleman. Does he assert that he did not say these exaggerations were doing harm to the cause?
You said, "The cause we all had at heart."
Well, doing harm to the cause. What cause? You might imagine that the hon. and learned Gentleman had devoted his life to advancing the redress of the town traders —the redress of the leaseholders—and that just as he was emerging into triumph, I come up with my exaggerations, and shatter his life's work. When did the hon. Gentleman devote his advocacy to this question? I have not heard of it, his own Leaders have not heard of it. His own Leaders never said a word about the town tenants on which I spoke at St. Pancras until a month after I had gone to this hall and desecrated it with this inaccurate speech. One of their most respected Leaders is chartered by his colleagues to go to the same place, stand on the same spot where these pronouncements were made, and absolutely surrender to all the proposals which I made Was there ever such a tribute to an inaccurate speech? They do not deny the evils, they have admitted them. They admit them now. They are angry at the admissions forced from them. They made a deliberate attempt to ignore them, but that failed. And why? After years, although these things existed-bad wages, starvation wages for agricultural labourers—labourers could not keep themselves and their families in decent comfort. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Yes, I repeat it, labourers 13s. or 14s. a week, bad houses, bad conditions, traders' labour confiscated and robbed by legal process, all this has been going on, and how many speeches were delivered upon that subject by Unionists or by any of their Leaders? [An HON. MEMBER: "Every day."] But now every platform rings with it. The Press is full of it, and this after an attempt to ignore it. Here I have an explanation why there has been this change. Here is a circular issued by the National Unionist Association of Conservative Organisations, and it has been sent out to people who are called Missioners, and it encloses a few sample reports of what they have been receiving from the villages. Here is one:—
"The Radicals started their land campaign here about a fortnight ago with an open-air meeting promising the labourers £1 a week, better houses, higher wages, etc. The meeting, I am informed was well attended, and the proposals are much talked about in the village publics afterwards. I would suggest that meetings like this should be followed by one on our own side, and these plausible statements contradicted before they have time to sink in."
Here is another. An hon. Member, representing an urban constituency, says in his speech:—
"They got reports every day of the week from people that the villagers and the agricultural labourers were talking about nothing but Lloyd George and the minimum wage. In some of the other villages the farmer had grave doubt as to whether he was not going to be left in the lurch over Tariff Reform."
The attempt has failed. They admit the evils, but instead of concentrating their indignation upon the evils they admit they are directing it against a Minister. I stand at this box now, and I challenge any hon. Member present to tell me what creed of his has ever helped as much to force statesmen to recognise these evils and provide remedies for them!
I am so attentive a student of the methods of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that I should be unwilling not to notice that even in the last four sentences of his speech to-night he could not refrain from a misrepresentation of one of his opponents, So characteristic of his methods that I make no excuse for drawing the attention of the House to it for one moment. He quotes my hon. and learned Friend behind me, almost purporting to base himself upon a quotation in front of him—you would have thought that he was reading an extract—charging the Chancellor of the Exchequer with "doing injury to the cause we all have at heart." It is received with sneers and laughter as one of his most successful points by his supporters. Not one word was said by the hon. and learned Gentleman which even remotely suggested the construction the Chancellor of the Exchequer put upon it. Only to-night we are here and we happen to be able to deal with him when he makes this misstatement. The right hon. Gentleman continues, and he asks this question, "When did my hon. and learned Friend devote himself to this cause?" [HON. MEMBERS: "Case."] Case or cause. When did my hon. and learned Friend devote himself to it? And the right hon. Gentleman tonight adds, "Very bad wages for agricultural labourers, and very insanitary houses." We know there are, and when the right hon. Gentleman asks when did my hon. and learned Friend devote himself to it? I retort and say, "When did you?" The right hon. Gentleman has enjoyed high office in this country since the year 1906, and for a great part of the years that have elapsed the Government have held undisputed sway to a degree which has been exerted hardly by a single Government in this country since the Reform Act. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Has the House of Lords ever thrown out a Housing Bill?
It threw out a Land Bill.
Why, since the right hon. Gentleman asks my hon. and learned Friend what he has been doing, has the Government waited from the year 1906 to the year 1914 to redress these great evils? I will tell the right hon. Gentleman since his own modesty prevented him telling us. The Government has waited till the year 1914 until they wanted an election cry, until the Government wanted to cover up the unpopularity of their Home Rule proposals and their Welsh Disestablishment proposals, until, in other words, they wanted to devise one of those elections which was offered to Ulster yesterday as a safeguard so that they might not be brought into the inclusion of Home Rule. When I listen to the right hon. Gentleman defending himself either in this House or elsewhere, I am reminded of a statement which was made by Lord Halifax, that defending an ill thing is more criminal than the doing of it, because it wanteth the excuse of its not being premeditated. Therighthon. Gentleman has spoken of the consideration of my hon. Friend in not making any charge against him of which he has not been given notice. I will only make the observation that it is an admirable practice which he would be well advised to adopt himself. He commended it to-night, but I never heard that he bombarded the Duke of Montrose with notice of the attack he was going to make on him. I never heard that he warned the Duke of Bedford. The only personality he says he used was that the duke was a good landlord, but he omitted to mention that he accused the Duke of Bedford's agent—a scholar with a great reputation—of being a flunkey. Inasmuch as the right hon. Gentleman has dealt with the Gorringe case, I make very little remark on it. The right hon. Gentleman when he defends himself hardly ever does so by reference to what he said, and in that he is wise. This is what he said:— pointed out the unanswerable truth, without contradiction from the right hon. Gentleman, that, so far from this trader suffering from any injustice, he made a great deal of money by transferring the property, and the principal asset on which he relied, in making that money, was the very blackmail to which the right hon. Gentleman alluded. No one supposes that the right hon. Gentleman needs the condemnation of this House upon this charge—"A case like that is not business—it is blackmail." The right hon. Gentleman reprinted his own speeches in a volume, and this is how he altered it. The right hon. Gentleman never runs away, neither in this House nor in Birmingham. He stated in his speech, and it was so reported—it was quoted in every paper in England—"This case is not business, it is blackmail," and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his published volume, altered it to read thus:— ponement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's visits to various towns:—
He always makes a wise selection of his topics, and therefore when he goes to a railway centre he naturally flies to the deer forest of the North of Scotland, a, subject on which they would so obviously be so well informed, which would enter so immediately into their daily lives, that the majority of them probably, like himself in his own characteristic idiom, have never been "at" a deer forest. The House will follow the train of thought. Railway workers "at" a railway station, "at" a deer forest. What did he say to these railwaymen? He said, "There are millions of acres which formerly maintained the sturdiest, bravest and most gallant race under the sun." We know the rhetoric and the sentiment. It is in his best style. "The land is trodden by deer." When I hear the right hon. Gentleman in what I may call his pathetic platform mood, I always recall a line in the "Ingoldsby Legends" in the poem which is called "The Little Vulgar Boy":— the habitation of the population. Does he say that now?
I simply say what I said, both at Bedford and at Swindon, that the hills could be afforested and the glens could be cultivated.
A characteristic and completely inaccurate interruption. I have got the right hon. Gentleman's speech here. It is hardly necessary to say that he said nothing of the kind. Here are his words:—
"Millions of acres which formerly maintained the sturdiest, bravest, and most gallant race under the sun—the land is trodden by deer."
I ask the right hon. Gentleman, as an honest controversialist—Did he or did he not mean to impress on his audience that these millions of acres were suitable for human habitation?
My best answer is to quote another passage to the right hon. Gentleman. This is what he omitted. This is what I said:—
"We want to repopulate these glens, and you can do it by re-afforesting hillsides, protecting glens, getting back the population who will have winter employment in looking after the forests, and summer employment in cultivating the valleys."
And the railway-men of Swindon are to distinguish between the millions of acres which are held out to them as having been reclaimed from human habitation and the places which are fit for afforestation. The right hon. Gentleman goes to St. Pancras and says: "The annual value of St. Pancras is now something like £2,500,000, you will correct me if I am wrong." Picture the right hon. Gentleman's audience at St. Pancras and a local working man getting up and saying, "Forgive me, Mr. Lloyd George, I think you are £100 wrong there." The right hon. Gentlemen said, "Within a generation almost the whole of this £2,500,000 will have passed into the hands of as many landlords as I have got fingers." If the right hon. Gentleman had as many fingers as he has libels, it would be grossly untrue. There are 1,500 established freeholders in St. Pancras. Those are the realities. It appears strange to us here, and it appears strange to hon. Gentlemen opposite, but there are many people who listen to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and who believe in him. Now let me take what, in my humble view, is the most characteristic of all the recent illustrations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's mind. When he was speaking at Glasgow someone in the audience shouted out the word "Marconi!" The Chancellor of the Exchequer was perfectly entitled to resent that interruption from his point of view as being irrelevant, as being insolent, or in any other sense. He did not say that. I could have perfectly well understood if he had said it. What did he say? He turns round to this man, of whom he knows nothing; he has not the slightest idea how he penetrated into the meeting. [An HON. MEMBER: "A forged ticket."] The hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire is very forward with his interruptions. The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows nothing of this man except that he annoyed him. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is extremely fond of comparing himself to Biblical personages. Almost the lowest in this sacred hierarchy to whom he likens himself is Saint Sebastian, and the highest are very high. He knew nothing about this man who annoyed him. Does anyone suppose that that cramped his Sebastian style? He turns round to the man and says, "You come here with a forged ticket."
He did not say that.
I will give the exact words:—
"The fewer taunts that are uttered by people who come here with forged tickets the better."
Is there any distinction there? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] How very admirable pupils of the Chancellor of the Exchequer hon. Members are. What is the point of that observation unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant to impute to the matt the dishonest act of having come to that meeting with a forged ticket? He did not know anything at all about the man, and he slings these untruthful slanders about. That is the way in which he slanders everybody. One day it is a duke; another day it is a duke's agent. I have heard of sane men who slander somebody knowing something, and of a few who slander somebody knowing a little, but I have never yet heard of a man occupying such a high and responsible position who would slander everybody, knowing nothing. In the days, I hope long removed, in which all that is earthly of the Chancellor of the Exchequer shall be carried to his fathers, there may be inscribed upon his stately memorial, perhaps of brass, a broad epitaph: "He ennobled public controversy. He never debased it. He rather dignified office than was dignified by it. And, while he could have been a demagogue, he preferred to be a statesman."
Question put, "That this House contemplates with regret the repeated inaccuracies of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his gross and unfounded personal attacks upon individuals."
The House divided: Ayes, 240; Noes, 304.
Division No. 44.] AYES. [11.1 p.m. Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Burn, Colonel C. R. Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Aitken, Sir William Max Butcher, John George Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Amery, L. C. M. S. Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) Faber, Captain W. V. (Hants, W.) Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) Falle, Bertram Godfray Anstruther-Gray, Major William Camplon, W. R. Fell, Arthur Archer-Shee, Major M. Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Ashley, Wilfrid W. Cator, John Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Astor, Waldorf Cautley, Henry Strother Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. Baird, John Lawrence Cave, George Fleming, Valentine Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Forster, Henry William Baldwin, Stanley Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) Gardner, Ernest Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Gastrell, Major W. Houghton Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Gibbs, George Abraham Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Gilmour, Captain John Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Goldman, C. S. Barnston, Harry Clive, Captain Percy Archer Goldsmith, Frank Barrie, H. T. Clyde, J. Avon Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Gordon, Hon, John Edward (Brighton) Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Goulding, Edward Alfred Beckett, Hon. Gervase Courthope, George Loyd Grant, J. A. Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Greene, Walter Raymond Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Gretton, John Bennett-Goldney, Francis Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Craik, Sir Henry Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Bigland, Alfred Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Bird, A. Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Haddock, George Bahr Blair, Reginald Denison-Pender, J. C. Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue Denniss, E. R. B. Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Dixon, C. H. Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) Boyton, James Doughty, Sir George Hambro, Angus Valdemar Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Du Cros, Arthur Philip Hamersley, Alfred St. George Bridgeman, W. Clive Duke, Henry Edward Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Bull, Sir William James Duncannon, Viscount Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) Burgoyne, Alan Hughes Du Pre, W. Baring Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Harris, Henry Percy M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Magnus, Sir Philip Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton) Helmsley, Viscount Malcolm, Ian Smith, Harold (Warrington) Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Spear, Sir John Ward Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) Mason, James F. (Windsor) Stanier, Beville Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Meysey-Thomson, E. C. Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) Hewins, William Albert Samuel Middlemore, John Throgmorton Starkey, John Ralph Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Staveley-Hill, Henry Hills, John Waller Moore, William Stewart, Gershom Hoare, S. J. G. Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Swift, Rigby Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Morrison-Bell Major A. C. (Honiton) Sykes, Allan John (Ches., Knutsford) Hope, Harry (Bute) Mount, William Arthur Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Neville, Reginald J. N. Talbot, Lord E. Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Newman, John R. P. Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.) Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford) Newton, Harry Kottingham Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Horner, Andrew Long Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) Hume-Williams, W. E. Norton-Griffiths, J. Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) Hunt, Rowland Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Thynne, Lord A. Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Tobin, Alfred Aspinall Ingleby, Holcombe Paget, Almeric Hugh Touche, George Alexander Jackson, Sir John Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Tullibardine, Marquess of Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) Parkes, Ebenezer Valentia, Viscount Jessel, Captain H. M. Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Walker, Colonel William Hall Joynson-Hicks, William Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F. Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) Kerry, Earl of Perkins, Walter Frank Watson, Hon. W. Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Peto, Basil Edward Weigall, Captain A. G. Keswick, Henry Pole-Carew, Sir R. Weston, Colonel J. W. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Pollock, Ernest Murray Wheler, Granville C. H. Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford Pretyman, Ernest George White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) Kyffin-Taylor, G. Quilter, Sir W. E. C. Williams Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) Lane-Fox, G. R. Ratcliff, R. F. Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud Larmor, Sir J. Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Wills, Sir Gilbert Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Rawson, Colonel Richard H. Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) Rees, Sir J. D. Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading) Lee, Arthur Hamilton Remnant, James Farquharson Wilson, Maj. Sir M (Bethnal Green, S. W.) Lewisham, Viscount Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Winterton, Earl Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.) Rolleston, Sir John Wolmer, Viscount Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Rothschild, Lionel de Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Royds, Edmund Wood, John (Stalybridge) Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Worthington-Evans, L. Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lieut.-Colonel A. R. Salter, Arthur Clavell Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Yate, Colonel C. E. MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Sanders, Robert Arthur Younger, Sir George Mackinder, Halford J. Sanderson, Lancelot Macmaster, Donald Sandys, G. J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Sir—Sir M'Calmont, Major Robert C. A. Sassoon, Sir Philip J. Randles and Mr. Cassel.
NOES. Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Bryce, J. Annan Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Acland, Francis Dyke Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. Dillon, John Adamson, William Burns, Rt. Hon. John Donelan, Captain A. Addison, Dr. C. Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Doris, William Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Byles, Sir William Pollard Duffy, William Agnew, Sir William George Carr-Gomm, H. W. Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Ainsworth, John Stirling Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Alden, Percy Chancellor, Henry George Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Chapple, Dr. William Allen Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Essex, Sir Richard Walter Armitage, R. Clancy, John Joseph Esslemont, George Birnie Arnold, Sydney Clough, William Falconer, James Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Clynes, John R. Farrell, James Patrick Baker, H. T. (Accrington) Collins, G. P. (Greenock) Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Ffrench, Peter Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Condon, Thomas Joseph Field, William Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Barnes, G. N. Cory, Sir Clifford John Fitzgibbon, John Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick) Cotton, William Francis Flavin, Michael Joseph Beale, Sir William Phipson Cowan, W. H. France, Gerald Ashburner Beauchamp, Sir Edward Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson Beck, Arthur Cecil Crooks, William Gelder, Sir W. A. Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George) Cullinan, John George Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Bentham, G. J. Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Gill, A. H. Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Gladstone, W. G. C. Black, Arthur W. Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Glanville, H. J. Boland, John Pius Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Booth, Frederick Handel Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Goldstone, Frank Bowerman, C. W. Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) Brace, William Dawes, J. A. Greig, Col. J. W. Brady, Patrick Joseph Delany, William Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Brocklehurst, W. B. Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Griffith, Ellis J. Brunner, John F. L. Devlin, Joseph Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Marks, Sir George Croydon Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Hackett, John Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Hall, Frederick (Normanton) Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Hancock, J. G. Middlebrook, William Robinson, Sidney Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Millar, James Duncan Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Molloy, Michael Roche, Augustine (Louth) Hardie, J. Keir Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Roe, Sir Thomas Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Money, L. G. Chiozza Rowlands, James Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Montagu, Hon. E. S. Rowntree, Arnold Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Mooney, John J. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Morgan, George Hay Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Hayden, John Patrick Morrell, Philip Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Hayward, Evan Morison, Hector Samuel, J. (Stockton) Hazleton, Richard Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Samuel, Sir Stuart M. (Whitechapel) Helme, Sir Norval Watson Muldoon, John Scanlan, Thomas Hemmerde, Edward George Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Murphy, Martin. J. Seely, Colonel Rt. Hon. J. E. B. Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Sheehy, David Henry, Sir Charles Nannetti, Joseph P. Sherwell, Arthur James Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Neilson, Francis Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Allsebrook Hewart, Gordon Nolan, Joseph Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) Higham, John Sharp Norman, Sir Henry Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Hinds, John Norton, Captain Cecil W. Soames, Arthur Wellesley Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Hodge, John Nuttall, Henry Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) Hogge, James Myles O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Holmes, Daniel Turner O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Sutton, John E. Hope, John Deans (Haddington) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Swann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) O'Doherty, Philip Taylor, John W. (Durham) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Donnell, Thomas Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Hudson, Walter O'Dowd, John Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) Hughes, S. L. O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Tennant, Harold John Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Thomas, J. H. John, Edward Thomas O'Malley, William Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Johnson, W. O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Thorne, William (West Ham) Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Toulmin, Sir George Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Shee, James John Trevelyan, Charles Philips Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) O'Sullivan, Timothy Verney, Sir Harry Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Outhwaite, R. L. Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Palmer, Godfrey Mark Walton, Sir Joseph Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Parker, James (Halifax) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) Parry, Thomas H. Wardle, George J. Jowett, F. W. Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Waring, Walter Joyce, Michael Pearce, William (Limehouse) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. Kellaway, Frederick George Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Kelly, Edward Philipps, Colonel Ivor (Southampton) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Kennedy, Vincent Paul Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Watt, Henry A. Kenyon, Barnet Pointer, Joseph Webb, H. Kilbride, Denis Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. White, J Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston] Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Pratt, J. W. White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) White, Patrick (Meath, North) Lardner, James C. R. Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Whitehouse, John Howard Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) Levy, Sir Maurice Primrose, Hon. Neil James Wiles, Thomas Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Pringle, William M. R. Wilkle, Alexander Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Radford, G. H. Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Lundon, Thomas Raffan, Peter Wilson William, P. (Middlesbrough) Lynch, A. A. Raphael, Sir Herbert H. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) MacGhee, Richard Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Maclean, Donald Reddy, Michael Winfrey, Sir Richard MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Wing, Thomas Edward Macpherson, James Ian Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Rendall, Atheistan Yeo, Alfred William M'Callum, Sir John M. Richards, Thomas Young, William (Perthshire, E.) M'Curdy, C. A. Richardson, Albion (Peckham) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. Manfield, Harry
The Orders for the remaining business were read, and postponed.
Supply
Postponed Proceeding resumed on Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair (for Committee of Supply on Army Estimates)."
Question again proposed. Debate arising.
And, it being after Eleven of the clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed to-morrow (Wednesday).
Commons
Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider every Report made by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries certifying the expediency of any Provisional Order for the enclosure or regulation of a Common, and presented to the House during the last or present Session, before a Bill be brought in for the confirmation of such Order:
Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power in respect of each such Provisional Order to inquire and report to the House whether the same should be confirmed by Parliament; and, if so, whether with or without modification, and in the event of their being of opinion that the same should not be confirmed, except subject to modifications, to report such modifications accordingly with a view to such Provisional Order being remitted to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries:
Ordered, That the Committee do consist of Twelve Members, Seven to be nominated by the House and Five by the 8/2/2007Committee of Selection.
Committee accordingly nominated, That Mr. Bentham, Mr. Brunner, Mr. Cowan, Mr. Gibbs, Mr. G. Butler Lloyd, Major Peel, and Mr. Patrick White be Members of the Select Committee.
Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records:
Ordered, That Five be the quorum.— [ Mr. Gulland. ]
East Africa Protectorates Loans
Committee to consider of authorising the Treasury to advance to the Governments of the Protectorates of British East Africa, Nyasaland, and Uganda, for the purpose of those Protectorates, sums not exceeding in the whole three million pounds, the advances to be loans within the meaning of the National Debt, and Local Loans Act, 1887.
(King's Recommendation signified) To-morrow.—[ Mr. Gulland. ]
Mall Approach (Improvement) (Expenses)
Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of contributions made by the Commissioners of Works in pursuance of any Act of the present Session, to enable the London County Council to acquire certain lands and execute certain improvements in the City of Westminster, and for other purposes in connection therewith.
(King's Recommendation signified) Tomorrow.—[ Mr. Gulland. ]
Customs and Excise (Clerks)
I beg to move "That this House do now Adjourn."
I desire to take this opportunity of bringing to the notice of the Government what I regard as a very real and serious hardship affecting an important class of Government servants. I refer to the clerks in the amalgamated Customs and Excise service who formerly had the position of Excise clerks. Their grievance is this—I am sorry it is a complicated and difficult matter, but I will make it as clear as possible. Before the amalgamation of the Customs and Excise service the Excise clerks had a minimum to look forward to of a sum of £400 a year. This was not attained to by slow increments, but in practice—whatever the theory might be—when they reached £220 they were permitted, without examination, to go to a higher class at which they started at £280 and went on to £400. It is, I know, contended by the Treasury that it did not necessarily or legally follow that the promotion took place, but in practice it did take place. After the amalgamation of the two services the maximum was at first reduced from £400 to £320. The result was that a very serious loss was suffered owing to the double effect of the slow increment being substituted for the automatic promotion that was in practice enjoyed before, and also the prospect of the maximum being reduced. On representations being made it is quite true that the old maximum was restored, and that they can still look forward in the ordinary course to the maximum of £400. But the former promotion, which I will call the "jump," that is from £220 to £280, was not and is not now allowed, and I can quote actual cases of a large number of officers who had, as a result of this change of system, lost between £69 and £81 annually.
I have further instances, which I can quote if necessary of officers whose losses, if they go on in the natural course of their service, will amount to many hundreds of pounds. I have two here. The man, if he serves, as he may naturally expect, to 1935, will lose nearly £700; the other will lose £750. That is the result of the amalgamation of the two services, even with the concessions which have since been granted. It is said that some hardships must take place when an amalgamation of this sort comes about. It is also said that these men have the advantage that they had not before of being able to compete for the higher grade in which their maximum would be increased to £450—that is, what is called competitive examination for the surveying grade. I ask the Secretary to the Treasury to say what is the real value of this option to compete. In the first place, I am informed there is only one vacancy on the average for every eight possible competitors, and therefore only one in eight affected by the reduction can hope to get compensation. There is more than that. If they compete and fail, not only do they lose their chance of getting to the higher grade, but they are penalised on their existing grade. At the present moment their maximum is £400. They are able to compete for a superior grade with a maximum of £450, but if they fail in the competition they are degraded—I do not mean that they are disgraced—to a lower grade, in which they go up to £320 instead of £400. The result of that is—I will put it in a betting form—that some who do compete must fail, and actually some of them know they have no chance, and do not compete. But for every one vacancy some four compete and the result is that out of every four that compete it is three to one they lose £80, and one to three they gain £50. I cannot believe that was intended. It seems a system absolutely and wholly indefensible, both from the point of view of the injustice to the men and from the point of view of the public service; and in this class these men have a great part of the revenues of the country passing through their hands, and they want some stimulus to do their work in the best manner, and to be able to be promoted to a higher grade. But you actually in offering a chance of competition put them under a heavy and crushing penalty if they fail. Obviously you cannot expect them to compete at all. I remember in my younger days reading a speech of a celebrated Spartan general to his troops, in which he asked them to show unparalleled bravery, and if they did not they were to be severely punished. Here you offer these men a chance of showing their ability to be promoted to a higher grade, but if they happen to fail—and three out of four must fail—not only shall they not get a chance, but they shall be actually heavily penalised and mulcted in their yearly increments for having had the temerity to compete at all. I think that must be due to an oversight. Some attempt was made to defend it. It is said that they are better off, and that if they lose on the one hand they gain on the other; but this is the only class to which this extraordinary condition applies. The position of the class above them—the second class—is in no way changed. They are allowed to compete for the same examination, and if they fail they are not fined and do not go back to a lesser maximum. I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider these two grievances—the loss in what I may call the jump in promotion, which means this—a very heavy annual loss in any case, and the extraordinary result of this competition to a man who fails—not only the discouragement of his failure but the actual loss in his present position. I brought this matter before the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, and he promised to look into it and give it careful consideration. That was before the last Whitsuntide Recess. The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) has also brought this forward, and written again and again to the Treasury on the subject. Every effort in reason has been exhausted, but nothing whatever has been done, and I do ask the hon. Gentleman now to give me an assurance that he will look into both these grievances, and make a very early, and I trust satisfactory, statement on the subject.
I very much regret that I have not time to give the hon. Member a fuller reply. In answer to representations made, my predecessor wrote a very full statement of the whole case, and the hon. Member has recently had correspondence with the Chairman of the Board of Customs and Excise, and even if I had longer time I could not add anything nor recede from the position which my predecessor and the Chairman of the Board took up. These clerks number some 200, and they were all recruited from outside officers under an old arrangement before the amalgamation. If a man joined as an officer he had the chance of remaining on the outdoor staff or becoming a clerk. If he remained within the outdoor staff he could not get more than £250 maximum without an examination. If he chose to accept the position of clerk on the indoor staff he had a chance, although not a certainty, by two steps and a long pause, of £400. The unambitious man became a clerk, and the man who thought he could pass an examination remained an officer. The hon. Member has taken the hardest possible case and compared it with the old average. None of these men have held a certainty of getting to £400 a year. Under the concession of the Hobhouse Committee they have the certainty if they remain clerks of getting to £400 by slow and gradual steps, and although they have chosen to become clerks, they can still exercise the option which they had? not got before of going back into i the outside service and sitting for an examination and a certificate. To give the clerks the right of going to the £400 maximum, as well as the chance of competing, would give them an unfair advantage over the outdoor staff, which would be resented by the latter. We have to consider the interests of the service as a whole when dealing with a matter of this kind. The hon. Member has come before us as a representative of the clerks. I hold a copy of the letter written by the hon. secretary of the Excise clerks, Customs, and Excise officers on behalf of the Excise clerks, in which they express thanks for the Chancellor of the Exchequer's modification of the scheme, and say that they recognise that the Commissioners in no small degree secured them better terms. These clerks are still satisfied. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I am sorry that, after the consideration given to this question, I am unable to hold out any hope that it will be reconsidered.
I am sorry the hon. Member can add nothing to what has been said before. This is a matter affecting many clerks in the North of England and South Wales, and it is a matter upon which I have had an enormous amount of correspondence, although the right hon. Gentleman says that he has had a letter thanking him for what was done for these officials by the Treasury and by the Department, still at the same time, these men are not in the least happy in the position in which they are, and, as far as I can make out, have got an absolute grievance from the point of view that they had a better chance before. I do not like to go directly against what the right hon. Gentleman had said, because his statement is obviously, as he has given it, a frank one, and I have not had time to go very deeply into the whole of this matter; but, at the same time, from the persistence with which the clerks have continued to put their case before me, and presumably before other hon. Members, it does not seem as if that entire consideration had been given to this case which the right hon. Gentleman says has been given to it.
It being half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Half after Eleven o'clock.