House of Commons
Wednesday, March 11, 1914
Private Business
Norwich Electric Tramways Bill,
To be read a second time To-morrow.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 21) Bill (by Order),
Third Reading deferred till Thursday, 19th March, at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Standing Orders,
Resolutions reported from the Select Committee;
1. "That, in the case of the Belfast Corporation [ Lords ], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
2. "That, in the case of the Skegness Urban District Council [ Lords ], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill, on condition that Clause 64 be struck out of the Bill:—That the Committee on the Bill do report how far such Order has been complied with."
3. "That, in the case of the Sheffield Corporation, Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with:—That the parties foe permitted to proceed with their Bill, on condition that the words and the local Acts' are struck out of Clause 49 of the Bill:—That the Committee on the Bill do report how far such Order has been complied with."
Resolutions agreed to.
Shops Act, 1912
Copies presented of Closing Orders made by the undermentioned Local Authorities and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—
County of Chester (Districts of Runcorn (and the adjoining parish of Weston), Winsford, and Nantwich);
Boroughs of Southport and West Bromwich;
Urban District of Caerphilly
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 146]
Homeless Poor
Copy presented of Report of the Metropolitan Poor Law Inspectors' Advisory Committee to the Local Government Board up to 31st December, 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
St. George's Hospital Bill
Copy presented of Report of the Attorney-General on the Bill [pursuant to Standing Order 175 a ]; referred to the Committee on the Bill.
Nottingham Mechanics Institution (Amendment) Bill
Copy presented of Report of the Attorney-General on the Bill [pursuant to Standing Order 175 a ]; referred to the Committee on the Bill.
Oral Answers to Questions
Royal Navy
Contractors (Armour Plate)
asked the First Lard of the Admiralty if he will state the names of the firms which have contracts with the Admiralty at the present time for the supply of armour plates?
The following firms hold contracts for armour for the Admiralty at the present time:—
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not a fact that their plant is capable of a very much larger output of armour plate than they at present execute; and whether they were not encouraged years ago to increase their plant?
That was gone into before the Select Committee, and I am not going to make any admissions likely to be advantageous to one side or the other.
Did the right hon. Gentleman regard that as hostile? It was not.
Neither hostile nor friendly. I have to pursue a path which is entirely neutral to these great firms.
Submarine A7 (Lost)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if the divers employed in the attempts to raise the submarine A7 have made any reports which will assist in elucidating the reason why the submarine sank to so great a depth and could not rise to the surface again; and if there was any hidden defect found in this particular submarine which will account for her loss?
No, Sir.
Have the divers penetrated into this submarine at all?
I believe not.
Then this matter will remain unknown as to what caused the disaster?
We shall not know any more than at present.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any defect list had been furnished by the commanding officer of A7 submarine previous to her sinking: and, if so, whether any defects were put in relative to the pumps or tanks?
A7 was due for annual refit in February of this year. The customary defect list was forwarded to the dockyard by her commanding officer on the 15th January, in accordance with the regulations, one month before the commencement of the refit. A scrutiny of the list shows that the annual routine examination of the tanks and some minor repairs to pumps were included, but no defect appears which affected the seagoing efficiency or safety of the vessel. The maintenance of a submarine's pumps in an efficient condition is of vital importance, and is closely watched from day to day by the naval officers responsible.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any wireless messages were received from the submarine recently lost near Plymouth after she had sunk; and, if so, what was the-nature of the message?
No, Sir. A7 was not fitted with wireless telegraphy apparatus, nor would communication have been possible after the vessel had sunk even if she had been so fitted.
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the statement by Captain Coulson in a recent speech at Southport relating to this subject?
No, Sir.
Rosyth Dockyard
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state when it is estimated that the works at Rosyth, at present under construction, will be completed; and will he state the estimated permanent number of persons who will reside there when the dockyard is completed and in full work?
The contract date for the completion of the works under construction is the 31st May, 1917. It is not possible to state the permanent number of persons who will reside at Rosyth when the dockyard is completed and in full work.
Cannot an estimate be made as to what the permanent population will be, as it is important in view of the discussion that may arise as to the housing of these people?
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what was the date of the extension of the contract of Messrs. Easton Gibbs for large additional work connected with the new docks at Rosyth; and were any provisions as to the housing of the workmen made in the contract at the time of such extension?
Assuming the question relates to the provision of the third dock, the date of the supplemental contract was 25th June, 1913. No special provision was made for housing workmen beyond that contained in the conditions of the original contract. The contractors, however, agreed to accept the new Fair-Wages Clause in connection with this work.
Do I understand that there is no provision as to housing in the first contract of the Admiralty after all the discussion, and did they not think it necessary to insert one even last year in the new contract?
There was provision for handing over land. I will give my hon. Friend further information when the Navy Estimates are under discussion.
Will my hon. Friend encourage, the First Lord of the Admiralty to extend his activity by sleeping a few nights in these lodging houses?
"Dreadnoughts."
asked the First Lord of Admiralty how many "Dread noughts" it is estimated we shall have available for whole-world service in the spring and summer of 1916, after providing for a 50 per cent. superiority over Germany in Home waters?
I propose to deal with the standards of naval strength when I introduce the Navy Estimates for 1914–15.
May I ask whether on and after the date mentioned in the question we shall have only two "Dreadnoughts" in the Mediterranean, and will not that be a practical abandonment of the former position?
The hon. Member is now giving information.
Mediterranean Fleet
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state what was the tonnage of the armoured ships in the British Mediterranean Fleet in March, 1904; what is the corresponding tonnage at present; and what is the total tonnage of the armoured ships completed for the Italian and Austrian navies since the date named?
I will circulate the answer with the Votes.—[ See Written Answers this date. ]
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we reduced our tonnage in the Mediterranean since the date in the question by 111,000 tons, while Italy and Austria have increased theirs by 273,000 tons?
I follow with very close attention the movements of ships while responsible for the administration of the Admiralty, but the whole situation in the Mediterranean has frequently been laid before the House, and the House will soon have another opportunity of pronouncing upon it.
Royal Fleet Reserve (Classes a and B)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether Admiralty circular letter, dated 28th February, 1914, informs classes A and B of the Royal Fleet Reserve that they will be called out for eleven days' training during the month of July, 1914; whether the Admiralty circular letter, 1901, declares that classes A and B are not liable to be called upon to serve in the Fleet during peace manœuvres; whether the Admiralty circular letter, Royal Fleet Reserve, 1911, declares that neither class (A or B) is liable to be called upon for service for summer manœuvres; whether pensioners enrolling in the Royal Fleet Reserve incur no fresh liability with the exception of one week's annual training carried out in their own time; whether it is declared in the same circular that class A (pensioners) are only liable to be called out in an emergency; and whether the test mobilisation proposed for July, 1914, is in consequence of an emergency?
Under the present regulations the liability of classes A and B, except in emergency, is limited to a week's annual drill. Special terms of an advantageous character are offered to men who carry out eleven days' training in July, in recognition of the fact that it is a variation from their ordinary training. I may refer the Noble Lord to what I said yesterday in regard to the exemption of men who are unable to attend in July, and the importance, which the Admiralty attach to the mobilisation. In these circumstances, it is the duty of well-disposed persons to help, and not to hinder, the project.
Hydrogen Generating Plant
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether a register is kept of firms in possession of hydrogen generating plant in the United Kingdom, and their capabilities of production in each case; and how far this supply is made compulsorily available in case of emergency?
Sir, this point has been and is being considered.
British and German Navy Battleships
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can state how many battleships have been completed for the British and German Navies, respectively, from 1906 onwards?
The hon. Member will find the information he requires in the published Return standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for North St. Pancras.
Questions
International Prize Court
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the event of an International Prize Court being established, it would be proposed for voting power to be according to tonnage registered in each country; or, if not, what method would be adopted?
Particulars as to the constitution of an International Prize Court will be found in Articles 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, and 43, and in the table annexed to Article 15 of the International Prize Court Convention. The convention is published in the Final Act of the Second Peace Conference, Miscellaneous No. 6, 1908, Command Paper 4,175. To give the hon. Member particulars of the constitution of the Court would exceed the limits of a Parliamentary question.
Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House whether it will be based upon tonnage or one for each country?
It is not based on either.
How is it based?
If the hon. Member will look at this answer he will see exactly.
New Hebrides
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the New Hebrides Convention prohibits in Article 43 the transfer of labourers from one employer to another in consideration of a cash payment and with out the express consent of the labourers so transferred; and whether a recent decision of the Joint Court is a violation of this Article?
Article 43 of the New Hebrides Convention provides that no transfer of a contract of engagement shall be permitted unless freely accepted by the labourer. In the case referred to by my hon. Friend the Joint Court was, I presume, satisfied that the transfers were freely accepted by the labourers in question.
British Army
Bathing Huts, Stokes Bay
asked whether the rent of a number of bathing huts at Stokes Bay, near Portsmouth, on shingle beach, has been fixed by the Department at the annual sum of £760 per acre; and whether this decision was come to by the. War Department on their own initiative or whether the Treasury required them to ask this sum?
The rent of a bathing hut site of ordinary dimensions is 15s. a year. This compares favourably with the rents charged by private owners in the locality. The price was fixed locally, and the Army Council have concurred in it. No reference to the Treasury was necessary.
Royal Flying Corps
asked what is the number of water-cooled engines in efficient use by the Royal Flying Corps; and whether he has any information as to the number and high standard of reliability of these engines as used in the German flying corps?
One is in actual use and twenty-four others are being fitted into the twenty-four aeroplanes under construction at the Royal Aircraft Factory. I have no information as to the number in use in the German, flying corps, or as to the results obtained, but the high standard of reliability of the engines in question is recognised.
asked what number of civilians have been enlisted as mechanics, fitters, etc., in the reserve of mechanics, Royal Flying Corps; and what steps have been or will be taken to give these men some idea of military discipline and organisation?
It is proposed to open Category (a) Special Reserve shortly for the enlistment of mechanics, etc., for the Flying Corps. Those enlisted will be called up for a certain amount of training every year.
Am I to understand that nothing has been arranged yet, and that no civilians have been enlisted at the present moment?
I cannot add anything to the answer I have given.
asked how many aeroplanes are now in use by No. 6 Squadron of the Royal Flying Corps; and whether permanent hangar accommodation is to be provided for the aeroplanes of this squadron?
There are fourteen serviceable aeroplanes in use. They are accommodated in permanent hangars.
Can the Secretary of State for War give the House any information with regard to the sad accident which occurred this morning to the Royal Flying Corps, and which resulted in the death of Captain Allen and Lieutenant Burroughs?
I deeply regret to say that it is the fact that two officers of the military wing of the Royal Flying Corps at Nether Avon, namely, Captain Allen, of the Welsh Regiment, and Lieutenant Burroughs, of the Wiltshire Regiment, were killed. I have not been able to obtain any precise details of the cause of the accident, but I hope to receive them in the course of to-day. Meantime the commandant of the Central Flying School and the inspector of engines have both left for the scene of the accident, and most searching inquiry will be made into the cause of it. I need hardly add that I know the House sympathises with the relatives of the gallant officers.
Land Defences, Cromarty
asked whether the control of the land defences at Cromarty has been, placed in the hands of the Royal Marines, who have had little or no training or experience in the use of range-finding instruments and searchlights in connection with land defences; and, if so, why these guns are not manned by the Royal Artillery in the usual way?
The land defences at Cromarty are provided and controlled by the Admiralty.
Royal Soldiers' Daughters Home
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to the sanitary and educational defects in the Royal Soldiers' Daughters Home at Hampstead; and what steps have been taken or are in contemplation to remedy these defects and to afford to these children of soldiers similar educational advantages to those enjoyed by other children in London under the local education authority?
I have seen references to this matter in the Press, but I am not informed as to any action the committee of the institution, with whom the matter rests and who are not under my control, may contemplate taking.
Major Adams V. Sir Edward Ward
asked whether, in view of the fact that, in the recent libel action, Major Adams v. Sir Edward Ward, the defendant had acted purely in his official capacity as a public servant under the directions of the Army Council, His Majesty's Government will indemnify Sir Edward Ward in respect of the whole costs and damages arising out of that action or of any appeal from the verdict?
I am not in a position to add anything to the answer which I gave to the question put to me on this subject by the hon. and gallant Gentleman on the 25th of last month.
Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that the liability of the Army Council depends upon the result of the verdict?
No, Sir. I have been most careful to suggest nothing in this matter. It is still sub judice.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider an indemnity as in the case of the hon. Member for White-chapel?
I hope I shall not be taken as saying "Yes" or "No" in this matter. As I have already said, there is nothing to be stated pending the possibility of an appeal.
Territorial Force
asked whether any officer or man of the Territorial Force is subject to military law when on duty, but at all other times is entitled to complete freedom of action; or, if not, will he say what is the responsibility of such officers under the King's Regulations or otherwise?
The conditions under which officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the Territorial Force would be subject to military law are stated at length in paragraphs 213–216 of the Territorial Force Regulations. It is a general rule applying to all persons in the service of the Crown that they should contract no obligations inconsistent with the performance of their duties in such capacity.
Army Manœuvres
asked the Secretary of State for War if he will state what will be the area of this year's Army manœuvres; and whether the Forest of Dean will be included in such area?
A draft of the Order in Council prescribing the area of the manœuvres for this year was laid on the Table on the 13th February, and a map has been placed in the Tea Room. The Forest of Dean, taken as a whole, is not included.
Secret War Office Documents
asked the Secretary for War whether instructions were given to the South African Government to destroy secret War Office documents; and, if so, when the instructions were given?
No particular instructions have been issued to the South African Government.
Questions
Gold Standard Reserve (India)
asked the Under-Secretary for India whether he will state the sterling value at the present time of the gold standard reserve, exclusive of its silver branch in India, and say what the loss would have been to the revenues of India during the past twelve months if half of this reserve had been held in the shape of metallic gold?
The sterling value at the present time is £21,412,000, of which £17,092,000 earns interest and £4,320,000 is in gold. But much of the gold has been added in the last three months. The average held in gold during the twelve months has been £2,093,000. The amount earned by the interest-bearing portion in the year is, approximately, £574,700. If half of the total represented by the securities and the average holding of gold had borne interest throughout the year, instead of the £17,092,000 just mentioned, at the rate-actually earned on the £17,092,000, the interest obtained would have been £322,500, or less by £252,200 than has actually been received.
Is my hon. Friend aware that very many people in India suspect the gold held by the Government of India in London is intended to support the reserve gold at the Bank of England in moments of crises, and that at the expense of the taxpayers of India?
Yes, Sir. I am aware of the existence of that suspicion.
National Insurance Act
London Insurance Committee
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the London Insurance Committee has made any request for increased Grants to enable them to meet expenditure arising out of the working of the National Insurance Act; if so, what reply has been made to such request; and if any suggestion has been made to the London County Council, in the matter, and the nature thereof?
I understand that the London Insurance Committee communicated with the Treasury early last year as to the provision of further funds to defray the expenses of sanatorium benefit, and they were informed, in reply, of the conditions under which further funds are available for the treatment of tuberculosis. I have no information as regards the last part of the question.
Is it not a fact that the Treasury Estimates have been exceeded, and has it not been found necessary to communicate with the London County Council asking them to make up part of the deficiency out of the local rates?
I do not know what the hon. Member means by the Treasury Estimates being exceeded.
Has the amount placed aside by the London Insurance Committee been exceeded? Have they enough to pay the insured persons?
I have already answered that question.
No, Sir.
Approved Societies
asked whether the Insurance Commissioners have still large sums of money in hand which ought to go to the approved societies for investment; and whether the societies are being credited with interest thereon at the rate of 3¼ per cent. only while they could themselves safely, and without difficulty, invest the money at 4¼ per cent.?
The money referred to consists largely of sums retained under Section 55 (3) of the Act The remainder consists partly of sums left by approved societies in the Investment Account under Section 56 (1) proviso, and partly of sums retained to meet current liabilities. All such moneys are invested temporarily under Section 54 (3) proviso.
Can the hon. Member say what interest, and will he also answer the latter part of the question?
At a rate of interest determined by the National Debt Commissioners.
asked how-many societies, or what membership of approved societies, in Scotland have elected to take advantage of the provisions of Section 16 of the amending Insurance Act, thereby securing separate valuation in Scotland?
Representations have been received by the Joint Committee under the proviso of Sub-section (1) of Section 16 of the National Insurance Act, 1913, in respect of nineteen societies having a membership in Scotland of 708,277.
Insurance Committee Areas (Great Britain)
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will specify the insurance committee areas in Great Britain where the drug fund under the National Insurance Act is insufficient to pay the panel chemists their accounts in full for 1913?
For the reasons already given in my reply to similar questions by the hon. Member it is not at present possible to make any statement on the subject.
Medical Benefit
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commission, why a young domestic servant, by name Anne Yeatman, in service at 17, Macaulay Road, Clapham, taken seriously ill, and ordered by Dr. Hopewell, Water Lane, Brixton, to go into the country as quickly as possible, who went to her parents at Oxford on 26th February, and applied at once to the London National Health Insurance Committee, 5, Chancery Lane, for a medical ticket to be sent to her to enable her to have the attention of a panel doctor, has had no reply to her application, and is consequently unable to obtain medical treatment?
My right hon. Friend is informed that the London Insurance Committee received an application, dated 28th February, for a medical card from the person referred to. The particulars of her insured membership were, however, incorrectly stated, and further investigation was necessary. The card was issued on the 5th instant.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman why the medical ticket was not sent to the girl until nine days after her application, during which her condition was serious, and why the ticket had not been sent to her at the beginning of the year?
The facts as stated by the Commissioners do not quite agree with the facts as stated by the Noble Lord. I understand that she did not reply until 28th February, and then gave incorrect particulars. When correct particulars were ascertained a card was immediately sent.
Canterbury Insurance Committee
asked whether the finance sub-committee of the Canterbury Insurance Committee have passed a resolution asking the Insurance Commissioners to grant them an extra sum of money so that they may be able to pay the local panel chemists their accounts in full?
My right hon. Friend has no information as to any such resolution.
Income Limit
asked whether a sea-going boilermaker earning £11 per month and his keep is considered to be a manual worker and therefore compulsorily insured, although his income, including his keep, is reckoned to exceed £160 a year?
The question whether employment is employment by way of manual labour depends upon the nature of the duties performed in the particular case. If my hon. Friend has a specific case in his mind, I would I suggest that the facts of the case should be put before the Commissioners with a view to a formal decision being obtained under Section 66 of the principal Act.
asked whether a person who ceased to pay contributions in August last because his income then exceeded £160 a year is entitled to claim benefit until arrears begin to have effect in July next?
No, Sir. A person who ceases to be employed within the meaning of the Act because his rate of remuneration exceeds £160 a year is suspended from insurance, and therefore ceases, during suspension, to be entitled to benefit quite apart from the operation of the arrears provisions.
Questions
Increment Value Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with reference to the 3,750 assessments for Increment Value Duty made to 30th December, 1913, if he will state how many of such assessments resulted in the payment of duty and the total amount of Increment Value Duty received?
I am informed that the number of these assess- ments which have, up to the present, resulted in payment of duty is 2,050. As regards the yield of particular taxes during the current financial year, I am not prepared to give figures in advance of my usual financial statement.
Conveyances (Extra Duties)
asked what is the amount realised by the Exchequer by the extra duties imposed by Section 74 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, on conveyances or transfers operating as voluntary, disposition inter vivos in each of the financial years ending 31st March, 1911, 1912, and 1913?
The approximate amounts for the years in question are £48,000, £65,000, and £74,000, respectively.
Undeveloped Land Duty
asked whether, in view of the statement made by the Lord Privy Seal on 11th August, 1913, the right hon. Gentleman will give directions to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to refund Undeveloped Land Duty to any owner who can show that it is not possible for him to obtain for his land more than the rent for the purposes of agriculture?
asked whether, in view of the statement made by the Paymaster-General on the 11th August, 1913, he will give directions to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue not to assess any owner for Undeveloped Land Duty except in respect of land which is being held up by such owner, and unless the Commissioners can afford proof that such land could be used during the year of assessment for a better purpose than agriculture?
I see no reason for giving any special directions to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue.
Is the House to understand that the doctrine laid down by the Lord Privy Seal or the practice of the Commissioners is the correct one?
I do not think the hon. Member correctly interprets the doctrine laid down by the Lord Privy Seal. I have copies of it here.
Do the following-words carry out the doctrine now being pursued by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue:—
"Suppose the owners of land can show that it is definitely impossible to obtain more than an agricultural rent, then, if they were to appeal, they would be excused the sum charged."
Is that the correct interpretation?
The hon. and gallant Member has not quoted what was further stated in the course of the same speech:—
"It has never been contended on this side of the House that this particular tax is only to be applied to cases in which it can be shown that land which might profitably be built on to-morrow is being deliberately kept out of the market, but there are also cases in which land might not be what the speculative builders call ripe for building on which the tax may very properly be charged."
That passage is in the same speech.
Will the right hon. Gentleman state how a Minister came to make such a misleading statement?
It is not at all misleading. On the contrary, it is a statement by which we stand.
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will explain why, having regard to the provisions of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, the practice has been adopted by the Commissioners of picking out a strip of purely argicultural land abutting on a road and forming part of a field the site value of which is worth less than £50 an acre and transferring part of the site value of the whole field to the site value of the strip of land solely for the purpose of making a claim for Undeveloped Land Duty?
The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. It is only where the frontage land has a site value exceeding £50 an acre that a claim for duty arises, and in the apportionment, which is made according to the respective values of the apportioned parts, there o is no transfer of value such as the hon. Member suggests.
Does that not mean that Undeveloped Land Duty may be claimed on any purely agricultural land if it abuts on the roadway?
If by abutting on a road it has a building value above the agricultural value, of course it does.
Then in any agricultural district Increment Value Duty may be claimed? Has the right hon. Gentleman not stated that agricultural land of that character was exempt?
Certainly not. It has always been stated and understood, and, in fact, it is in the Act of Parliament, that if there is a building value over and above the agricultural value it is chargeable. All land undeveloped must have been agricultural land at one time or another.
asked whether the Commissioners of Inland Revenue claim, when assessing Undeveloped Land Duty upon agricultural land, place the-greater part of the agricultural value of the entire holding on the acre upon which the farmhouse is situated, and which is in any case exempt from Undeveloped Land Duty, thus reducing the agricultural value shown in respect of the rest of the farm, and producing consequently an agricultural value lower than the assessable site value of the whole farm, although the provisional valuation of the whole farm shows an agricultural value in excess of the-assessable site value; and whether he will state under what provisions of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, the Commissioners claim the right to apportion agricultural value in this manner or at all?
The Commissioners do not, and have no power to, apportion agricultural value. They ascertain, for the purposes of assessment of duty, the agricultural value of the land which is liable to duty, and the value so-ascertained may be greater or less than the agricultural value of the remainder of the hereditament.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Commissioners are assessing Undeveloped Land Duty on the site values of undefined portions of land comprised in a holding without having first made an apportionment of the site value as provided by Subsection (2) of Section 29 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, to which a statutory objection could be taken and against which a statutory appeal could be lodged; whether the owner is debarred by this procedure from appealing against the-amount of such assessment, having regard to the provisions of Section 33; whether this procedure has been adopted by the Commissioners with the express object of evading the provisions relative to appeals; and whether he will take steps to ensure: that the Commissioners shall comply with the provisions of the Act?
Where part of a holding is exempt from Undeveloped Land Duty, and no formal apportionment of site value is made, the Commissioners indicate on the notice of assessment the allowance granted to give effect to the exemption, and furnish any further information which is desired. This procedure has certainly not been adopted with the object suggested by the hon. Member, nor does it debar the owner from appealing against the amount of the assessment and calling in question the allowance which has been made.
asked whether the larger part of the receipts from Undeveloped Land Duty are in respect of duty assessed on agricultural land?
No statistics are available on this point. As the hon. Member is doubtless aware, duty is charged only on the excess of site value over agricultural value.
Development Commission
asked whom it has been decided to appoint as a Development Commissioner in the place of Sir Sainthill Eardley-Wilmot, who retired from the Commission last summer?
I hope to make an announcement very shortly.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not the fact that he has made a statement to the same effect several times, both last Session and this?
As the hon. Gentleman knows very well, the difficulty is that I should like to have appointed two additional Commissioners; and whether you are able to have an additional person or not depends upon very largely whom you appoint.
Increment Value Duty (Ireland)
asked how many occasional valuations have been made in Ireland to 31st December, 1913; and what sum has been paid as the result of these valuations for Increment Value Duty?
I understand that the number of valuations on separate occasions made up to the 31st December, 1913, is 5,786. As regards the yield of particular taxes during the current financial year, I am not prepared to give figures in advance of my usual financial statement.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much those valuations cost?
Not without notice.
Could the right hon. Gentleman say the amount of duty collected up to March last?
No.
Old Age Pensions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received several complaints from pension committees in county Kerry regarding the refusal of pension officers to attend meetings; whether this refusal has caused in convenience and has practically prevented committees going on with their work; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
I am aware that the county Kerry pension committee have passed several resolutions in reference to the fact that the local pension officers have not recently attended the meetings of the committee. I can only repeat what has already been said to the committee by the Board of Customs and Excise that there is no obligation upon pension officers to attend at meetings of local pension committees. Pension officers do, in fact, attend whenever the cases under consideration raise points which make their presence necessary; but, having regard to the numerous matters which require their attention, the Board are not prepared to require them to give such attendance as a general rule.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is a fact that the local pensions officer has been requested to attend the meetings of the committee on several occasions during the past twelve months, and that he has during all that time ignored their request?
I will take note of that fact.
Commissioners of Inland Revenue v. Smyth and V. Hunter
asked if a decision has yet been come to as to what extent the judgments of Mr. Justice Scrutton, in the cases of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue v, Smyth and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue v. Hunter, should be accepted or appealed against; and, if there Are to be appeals, what steps will be taken to expedite the hearing?
The matters referred to are receiving very careful consideration, and I hope to be able to announce the Government's decision early next week.
If this decision be reversed, will not the result be that duty payable on an occasion will differ materially, according to whether the occasion arises in the summer, when the grass is growing, or in the winter, when it is not?
I think that the hon. Gentleman had better put that conundrum off until I have answered the question on the Paper.
May I take it that the right hon. Gentleman cannot answer now?
St. Paul's Cathedral
asked the Prime Minister if he has considered the Reports relating to the condition of St. Paul's Cathedral and the need of money to assure its safety; and if the Government propose to make a Grant towards this object?
In answering this question, to which I hope he will give a favourable consideration, will the Prime Minister bear in mind that St. Paul's has very special associations with the House, having regard to the fact that its builder, Sir Christopher Wren, was in several Parliaments a Member of the House of Commons?
I have seen some of the reports referred to in the question, but the matter has not in its general aspects been before the Government officially. The question what remedial steps (if any) are required is primarily one for the cathedral authorities.
May I ask the Prime Minister whether, if it came before them, they are likely to give it favourable consideration?
I have not received any representations on the subject.
Will the Prime Minister remember that St. Paul's was built with moneys obtained by Parliamentary Grants at a time when public opinion was much weaker than at present?
Civil Service Estimates (Law Charges in Scotland)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to page 71 of the Civil Service Estimates, Law Charges in Scotland, where it is stated that the salaries of the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor-General for Scotland cover all business of whatever sort done by them in virtue of their offices; if so, will he take any steps to institute this system with Law Officers in all parts of the United Kingdom or, if not, will he see that Scotland is not ill-treated in this respect?
The rules regulating the emoluments of the Law Officers of the Crown in the three kingdoms were settled nearly twenty years ago with a view to the duties discharged by them respectively on behalf of public Departments in the several kingdoms. I am not aware of any ground for re-opening the matter.
Barwell Postal Facilities
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that inconvenience is caused to the in habitants of Barwell by the closing of the post office on Wednesday afternoon; and whether he will put a relief man in for this afternoon weekly, in order that the post office business may not be interrupted in this manner?
I am aware of the case, and the circumstances were fully stated in a letter to the hon. Member in October last. Apart from practical difficulties in sending a relief clerk to Barwell Post Office on Thursday afternoon, on which day early closing now is observed, the amount of postal and telegraph work to be dealt with would not warrant the cost involved.
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether his predecessor has, in an action in Dublin at the suit of the County Dublin County Council, repudiated agreements entered into by the National Telephone Company prior to the Government's purchase of that undertaking in 1911; whether the judge held that he was not bound by the conditions and stipulations formerly binding on the telephone company; and whether the Post Office claims the right either to abandon or to enforce such agreements in accordance with the interests of the Department?
The decision of Mr. Justice Dodd, against which there has at present been no appeal, was that the particular agreements in question which related to wayleaves on public roads were not binding on the Postmaster-General. The attitude of the Post Office towards all agreements depends upon their legal effect, and not upon considerations of interest. I beg to refer the hon. Member to the answers given by my predecessor to the hon. Member for Kendal on 20th March, 1911, and to the hon. Member for Ealing on 8th May, 1912, for a full statement of the position of the Post Office with regard to agreements made by the National Telephone Company in respect of wayleaves on public roads and on private property.
asked the Postmaster-General the reasons which determined his advisers to recommend him to refuse the installation of a telephone service between Longford and Richmond Harbour, viâ Killashee, where the present line ends; whether he is aware that at least 100 telegrams per week would be sent through this office; and whether he will agree to instal the office if there is a small local guarantee provided?
Telephone facilities cannot at present be provided at Richmond Harbour, as there is no exchange nearer than Athlone or Mullingar. The application for telegraph facilities was refused because the use likely to be made by the public of the service was too small to warrant the cost, even under the usual guarantee of one-third of any annual loss involved. The estimated telegraph traffic was 100 telegrams a year, and not 100 telegrams a week. I should be willing to provide a telegraph office at Richmond Harbour if a guarantee for the whole of the annual deficit were given.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he still adheres to the arrangement by which the telephone exchange is proposed to be put Into a private house in Longford instead of at the local post office, in which there is ample room for the same; whether it is the practice of his Department to make arrangements of this kind without any notice to telephone users, who desire to secure official secrecy for the transaction of their business; whether the police in Longford have made any report as to the unsuitability of the selected site for the exchange and their refusal to do business through it; and whether the present arrangement will be cancelled and the exchange put in the local post office for the satisfaction of all parties in the town?
I see no reason for departing from my predecessor's decision to house the exchange in premises outside the post office. This decision was based on the fact that the requirements of the service could not be properly met in the post office premises. It is not the practice to consult subscribers as to the position of exchange premises. The staff employed in exchanges are always placed under an obligation to observe secrecy, and this condition would apply at Longford. No communication has been received from the Longford police in the sense indicated.
I beg to give notice that on the Post Office Estimates I will draw attention to this matter.
Longford Post Office
asked the Post master-General whether he is aware of a promise made in this House by a former Postmaster-General to have the office at Longford remodelled so as to give the public greater facilities for attention and the quick despatch of business; whether he is aware that by setting the counter at right angles to its present position the business could be divided into three parts and not, as at present, have all done in one narrow space; and whether he proposes to direct this to be done?
Proposals for rearranging the Longford Post Office are nearly settled. They provide for an extension of the counter, which will give more accommodation for the public than would be available under the arrangement suggested by the hon. Member.
asked the Post master-General whether any attempt will, be made to give a daily motor service between Longford and Strokestown in which passengers could be carried for a nominal charge?
I have ascertained that the cost of substituting a motor for a horse-drawn vehicle for the conveyance of mails between Longford and Strokes- town would be unjustifiable. It is not within my province to provide for the conveyance of passengers, nor have I any funds for that purpose.
asked what is the cause of the delay in filling the office of postmaster at Longford; whether any advertisement of the vacancy has yet been issued and what replies have been received; and when an appointment will be made?
The vacant post-mastership of Longford was advertised in due course on the 6th January last. Some unavoidable delay was occasioned in dealing with the various applications, but an appointment has now been made.
asked whether it is still proposed to keep Longford postal district in the northern district; whether he is aware that, under this arrangement, much inconvenience has been caused by the inaccessibility of the surveyors, who reside mainly in Belfast; and will the old arrangement of attachment to the Dublin district be revived?
There is a misapprehension on this subject—a misapprehension which two of my predecessors have endeavoured to remove in answers to the hon. Member's questions in March, 1904, and March, 1907. Longford was transferred to the northern district in 1903, not from the Dublin district but from the midland district; the headquarters of the northern district are not in Belfast but are in Dublin, and none of the surveying staff reside in Belfast. I can see no reason for any change.
Postage Rates (France and England)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he can now see his way to establish a penny post between this country and France?
I regret that I am not in a position to make such a proposal.
Is the right hon. Gentleman in communication with the French Postmaster-General on the matter?
I am not, personally.
American Hails (Queenstown)
asked the Post master-General whether, under the new arrangements for the conveyance of West- bound mails, under which the contract to embark them at Queenstown has been cancelled, the Cunard steamship "Lusitania" made her first trip direct from Liverpool to New York on the 28th ultimo at 2.30 p.m.; whether she did not reach New York until Thursday, too late for letters to be forwarded from New York on that day; whether the departure at 2.30 p.m. on Saturday the 28th necessitated the American mails being posted throughout the United Kingdom on Friday the 27th ultimo; whether this occasions the complete loss of a business day without any corresponding gain; whether this is to be allowed to continue; and whether he can state to the House that there is any prospect of Cunard vessels in future being able to leave Liverpool punctually at 2.30 on Saturdays or at any fixed hour on that day?
The "Lusitania" left Liverpool at 2.30 p.m. on Saturday the 28th ultimo, and is reported to have reached the Ambrose lightship at 1.30 a.m. on Friday the 6th instant; but her arrival at the Quarantine Station, New York was delayed until 8.10 a.m. by a snowstorm. The mails reached New York Post Office at 10.24 a.m.; but I have not yet received information of the hour of delivery of correspondence in New York or of the hour of dispatch of the mails for places beyond New York. The correspondence included in the mails conveyed by the "Lusitania" had to be posted on Friday night in all parts of the United Kingdom except Liverpool, Manchester, and places in the vicinity of these towns. The navigation of the Mersey by the large Cunard steamers being restricted to some extent by tidal conditions, no fixed sailing hour can be adhered to with absolute regularity though every effort will be made to ensure it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of appointing a Committee to inquire into all the circumstances connected with the refusal of the Cunard Company to carry out its contract?
I have, I think, stated the reasons fully and without reserve, and there is nothing which a Committee could ascertain which is not already in the possession of the House.
Will the right hon. Gentleman keep an open mind on the subject.
Have the Cunard Company any control over weather and tides?
That hardly appears to require an answer.
Foot-and-Mouth Disease
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Cork was due to the fact that infection was brought to Cork from Birkenhead?
I am informed that there is no evidence at present to show definitely how the outbreak of the disease in Cork originated.
Can the right hon. Gentleman now say whether the fair at Naas can be held on the 18th as usual?
It has been decided it cannot be held.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware it has been announced in this House that the Report of the Inquiry Committee in connection with Birkenhead would not be issued until the officials of his Department have given their consent to its terms? When does he propose to allow that consent to be given?
Correspondence is now going on, and the two Commissioners have been unable to agree up to the present.
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether, in view of the length of time which has elapsed since the last case of foot-and-mouth disease in Kildare was dealt with, he is now in a position to remove all restrictions on the movement of cattle in the county?
The Department are keeping the position in regard to county Kildare carefully in view, and if nothing adverse occurs meanwhile it is hoped by the end of this week to withdraw the restrictions which still apply to reduced areas round Naas and Ballysax. Restrictions regarding the premises where the disease appeared will, however, continue for a further period.
School Clinics
asked the President of the Board of. Education how many elementary education authorities in England and Wales have availed themselves of facilities afforded them by present enactments for building school clinics, and to what extent, and the effect, if any, beneficial or otherwise, to the scholars; whether the Monmouthshire education authority has done anything in this direction, and, if so, to what extent; how many children in the elementary schools of Monmouthshire require treatment for vision and teeth alone; and how long will it take to deal with the number requiring treatment at the present time arising out of the aforestated causes?
The number of local education authorities in England and Wales that have established school clinks for the treatment of children attending public elementary schools is 115. The total number of clinics is, approximately, 200. The reports of the school medical officers show that in a large percentage of cases the treatment has been effective. The Monmouthshire education authority have established a clinic at Newport for treating defects of eyesight. They have under consideration the establishment of further school clinics. It was estimated in the School Medical Officer's Report for 1912 that the number of children in the area between seven and eight years with defective vision was 1,294 out of 10,535, or 12.3 per cent.; and that the number of children between five and eight years with defective teeth was 22,242 out of 22,683, or 98 per cent. I am, of course, not responsible for these figures, nor am I in a position to say how long it will take to deal with these cases.
Ancient Monuments Act
asked what steps are being taken to nominate a Scottish Advisory Board under the Ancient Monuments Act; and when he expects to be in a position to announce the names of its members?
The First Commissioner hopes to be able to publish the names of the Scottish as well as the English and Welsh Advisory Boards in a short time.
Measles
asked the President of the Local Government Board how many local authorities have, during outbreaks of measles, given effect to the Board's circular of April, 1911, and provided the medical officer of health with an adequate staff, including additional assistants, and how many have failed to do so?
I regret that the information in my possession does not enable me to give the particulars for which the bon. Member asks.
Rural Population
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will state what were the rates of increase in the population in rural districts in England and Wales; and what was the actual increase in the number of the rural population in 1901 and 1911, respectively?
The figures of 1901 show a decrease in the population in rural districts in England and Wales of 637,533, or 7.9 per cent. on those of the previous Census, and the figures of 1911 an increase of 438,068, or 5.9 per cent. over 1901. It must be noted that the rural districts, both in 1901 and 1911, have a less area than those of the preceding Census.
In view of the right hon. Gentleman's answer that there has been an increase in 1911, may I ask if his attention has been called to the statement of the Prime Minister at the National Liberal Club that in view of the steady decline of the rural population he was supporting the land campaign?
I think the hon. and learned Member is confusing the agricultural population with the population in the rural districts. "Rural districts" has a technical meaning: it means districts under a rural authority, and includes a great number of mining districts, the population of which has been rapidly increasing.
Is it not the fact that the agricultural population also shows a remarkable increase?
I must ask for notice of that.
Is it not the fact that the agricultural labourers have increased by 75,000?
One must necessarily have notice of such a question.
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman opposite will put down another 8.15 Resolution.
Labour Exchanges (Nurses)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether nurses may, and whether they do, make use of the Labour Exchanges in order to find employment in their profession?
The number of trained sick nurses who obtained employment through the Labour Exchanges during the four weeks ended 13th February, 1914, was twenty-four.
May I ask if inquiries are made as to whether nurses who apply for employment are trained or not, and whether if they were registered the Labour Exchanges would not have some guide?
It is obviously not the duty of the Labour Exchanges to do some of the duties which the hon. Member apparently thinks should be performed by them. The Labour Exchanges do not find employment for ordinary domestic children's nurses, who learn their duties as nursemaids.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether they are trained or not?
If a nurse in the opinion of the institution is qualified she is granted a certificate, and the Labour Exchange finds her employment under those conditions. But the question which the hon. Gentleman is putting to me is one which, it seems to me, ought to be directed to another quarter.
Trade Boards Act (Laundries)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government propose to fulfil the intention expressed last Session to issue a Provisional Order bringing the laundry trade under the operation of the Trade Boards Act; and whether he will make a statement on the matter?
I propose to introduce a Bill immediately to confirm a Provisional Order applying the Trade Boards Act to calendering and machine ironing in laundries.
Does that cover laundries which are run by convents?
I will look into that.
Belfast Tramways (Bonus to Employés)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board auditor has surcharged the members of the municipal administration of the Belfast tramways the bonus paid to their employés; whether this has put an end to the profit-sharing scheme there in force; under what Statute the auditor decided the payments were illegal; and whether the Government contemplate legislation to remedy this state of things?
The Local Government Board auditor surcharged salaries and wages to the amount of £2,800 paid on the 4th May, 1912, to the staff of the Tramways Department in anticipation of the profits estimated as likely to be earned in respect of the year ended the 31st March, 1913. The Local Government Board have no official information as to the second paragraph of the question. The auditor's reason for making the surcharge was that the payments in question were not authorised by law. As regards the last paragraph, it is open to the corporation to initiate any such legislation if they so desire. I may add that the surcharges in question were remitted by the Board on appeal.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the desirability of changing the general law so as to permit municipalities to put in force such a scheme where they think that course desirable? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the result of the destruction of this scheme has been a very great disappointment to the men employed on the tramways in Belfast.
Personally, I should be very glad to see made an alteration in the law as indicated by the Noble Lord. If he can give me any satisfaction on the subject. I shall be very proud to be the author of a Bill.
Reversion Duty
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the appeal in Marquess of Camden v. Commissioners of Inland Revenue decided against the Commissioners in the Court of Appeal, assessments to Reversion Duty are still being made contrary to that decision; and whether the Commissioners will give an undertaking that no such assessments shall be made in future?
The answer to the first part of the quesiton is in the negative, and the second part does not arise.
Fire Arms (Proof Harks)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take steps for registering the Birmingham and London proof marks on fire arms as special trade marks under the Trade Marks Act?
It is open to the authorities of either proof house to apply for registration of their marks under the provisions of Section 62 of the Trade Marks Act, 1905. Any such application will be carefully considered by the Board of Trade.
Suffragist Outrages
May I ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will consult with the proper authorities with a view to assisting the public to view those museums from which they are now excluded, namely, the British Museum, the Wallace Museum, and Hampton Court and South Kensington Museums?
I shall be very happy to communicate with the responsible authorities in order to see if anything in the nature of police protection can be given enabling the art collections to be opened again.
Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why these women were not searched?
As the Noble Lord is aware, the Art Gallery does not fall within my Department.
Do the Government contemplate any further legislation dealing with these outrages?
I shall be very glad to receive suggestions on the subject.
Deport them.
Where to?
Anywhere—South Africa.
Could not the Government, instead of bringing in frivolous Bills early in the Session, such as the Plumage Bill, give these women a chance to have legislation passed?
Orders of the Day
Notices of Motion
Armed Merchantmen
To call attention upon this day two weeks to the Arming of Merchantmen, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. M'Curdy. ]
Agricultural Industry
To call attention upon this day two weeks to the condition of the Agricultural Industry, and to move a Resolution.— [ Captain Weigall. ]
Rights of British Citizens
To call attention upon this day two weeks to the Rights of British Citizens within the Empire, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Pointer. ]
Bill Presented
Prize Competitions (Prohibition) Bill
"To prohibit certain Prize Competitions." Presented by Mr. JAMES HOGGE; supported by Lord Robert Cecil, Mr. Perkins, Sir George Toulmin, Sir David Brynmor Jones, Mr. Silvester Home, Mr. Sherwell, Mr. Arthur Henderson, and Mr. Snowden; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 114.]
Government of Wales
I beg to move, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the provision for the Government of Wales."
The recognition of Wales as a separate entity is one of the oldest traditions of the British Monarchy, and its observance by Parliament in recent years has perhaps been more frequent and considerable than is generally appreciated. Wales has long enjoyed separate treatment in the matter of Sunday Closing, and its education has been in some considerable measure under the control of the Welsh Department in London and the Central Welsh Board, while its University and its constituent colleges, its Library, and its Museum have been recognised as national institutions. During the present Parliament the Welsh Insurance Commission has been created and a charter granted to the Edward VII. Memorial—a most beneficent national organisation for combating consumption—and in matters agricultural a National Council of Wales has been con- stituted, with its separate Commissioner, who, together with the Welsh Commissioner for Small Holdings and the Welsh Development Commissioner, should constitute the nucleus of that separate Board of Agriculture for which Welsh farmers are clamouring so vigorously. In addition to what has actually been achieved, a good deal more has been attempted. Even a Unionist Ministry at one time went a considerable way in the direction of offering educational autonomy to Wales, and in 1908 the Liberal Ministry of the day handsomely recognised in its proposals the more mature condition of opinion on the Principality on licensing-matters. The Established Church (Wales) Bill now before this House is possibly the fullest acknowledgment of the distinctive-ness of Welsh feeling and judgment on matters of primary importance. Amid much controversy the principle least challenged is that of the separateness in this matter of Welsh nationality. Nearly twenty years ago a Royal Commission on Welsh Agriculture reported that the conditions obtaining in Wales approximated much more closely to those of Ireland and the Highlands of Scotland than to English conditions.
It is a somewhat striking fact that in the three matters which now await attention at the hands of the Government—land, licensing, and education—both the needs and the ideals of Wales differ from and are greatly in advance of those in England. Judging by the Parliamentary expression of its opinions, no portion of the United Kingdom is more frequently governed in direct defiance of its desires than the Principality. Under Conservative rule its aspirations are contemned, under Liberal rule they are with comparatively rare exceptions ignored. The Parliamentary history of the subject is somewhat scant and intermittent. It figured prominently in the earlier utterances in the country of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleague, Mr. T. E. Ellis. In 1890 the Chancellor declared:— prescience. In 1892 Lord Pontypridd, then Mr. Alfred Thomas, introduced his National Institutions Bill, creating a National Council of Wales, and more recently a Bill was prepared creating the Office of Secretary for Wales. During the last three years, however, the Welsh National Liberal Council, the official mouthpiece of Welsh Liberalism, has with complete unanimity declared in favour of autonomy on lines somewhat similar to those proposed in the case of Ireland, but naturally approximating more closely to those desired for Scotland. The Bill which I ask leave to introduce has, like the Government of Scotland Bill submitted to the House last year by the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire, been based very largely upon the Government of Ireland Bill, though in both cases there are divergencies of moment therefrom. In accordance with federal practice, this Bill leaves to Imperial Parliament the control of the Postal Services and of Customs and Excise, and, like the Scotch Bill, provides for a Single-Chamber Legislature. With the exception of the Postal Services, the services specified in the Irish Bill as Reserved Services, such as Old Age Pensions, National Insurance and Labour Exchanges, are from the outset placed under the control of the Welsh Legislature, and the devolution of domestic affairs generally is made absolute, effecting thereby a rational division of labour as between the Welsh Legislature and Imperial Parliament. It is proposed that women shall be entitled to vote upon precisely the same conditions as apply to men at present. The Welsh Legislature is to consist of ninety Members, elected by the present constituencies with slight modification, returning from three to six Members on methods of proportional representation. As regards the numerical strength and economic competence of Wales to undertake the responsibilities of self government, I would only remind the House that its population is greater than that of Norway and Cape Colony, and only slightly, if at all, less than that of Denmark, while it is more than three times that of Maine.
In finance we have followed the somewhat complicated and cumbersome devices of the Irish Bill, but can readily believe that simpler arrangements would meet the situation both in Scotland and in Wales, nor would the financial relations of Wales to the United Kingdom involve any disparity comparable with the present Irish position. Under the Government of Ireland Bill the representation of Ireland in this House is reduced to forty-two, roughly, one Member for every 100,000 people. On somewhat similar lines twenty-seven Members are allotted to Wales, all to be returned by large constituencies returning three or four Members, who it is suggested should also be elected on lines of proportional representation—in both cases peculiarly necessary in the industrial parts of Wales, where the progressive elements in the community are naturally divided into two groups giving varying emphasis and prominence to purely economic considerations. It is recognised that the representation of Wales, as of Scotland and Ireland, in this House while English domestic business is under consideration is anomalous, and not easily justifiable, but we trust that either by means of its elective Second Chamber, or some other device, Government will arrange for Imperial and general business to be dealt with exclusively by an Imperial body, and English domestic business by the representatives of England alone. In submitting this Bill we are profoundly convinced that while effectively advancing the interests of Wales, we are also facilitating the early adoption of a happier solution of the perils and troubles which to-day confront the body politic. If autonomy were granted to Scotland and to Wales during the life time of the present Parliament, in a large measure there would be achieved that similarity and simultaneity of treatment by which we understand the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College, and Unionist opinion generally, would be almost, if not wholly, persuaded to be reconciled to Irish self-government.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. John, Sir David Brynmor Jones, Sir Ivor Herbert, Sir Alfred Mond, Mr. Cowan, Mr. Watt, Mr. Brace, Mr. John Edwards, Mr. Hinds, Mr. Haydn Jones, Mr. Towyn Jones, and Mr. Richards. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 24th March, and to be printed. [Bill 115.]
Supply
Army Estimates, 1914–15
Postponed Proceeding resumed on Question [ 10th March ], "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—[ Colonel Seely. ]
Question again proposed.
When this Debate was adjourned last night, I was calling attention to the paragraph in the Secretary of State's Memorandum regarding the difficulty he had experienced in finding a sufficient number of cadets to fill the quarters built for them at the Royal Military College at Sandhurst. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether this unpopularity of the Army as a career for young men is not assisted or brought about in some way by the petty economies which are so continually practised at the officers' expense. This is a question to which I have repeatedly called attention, and I have never been able to get a reply from the right hon. Gentleman on the subject. I have shown that the allowances given to officers are purely nominal. They are not sufficient to cover what they require How can an officer get a servant for a shilling a day? How can he get medical attendance for a penny a week? I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to appoint a committee of officers to go into this question and see whether it cannot be settled in a satisfactory way. It is ten years since a Committee sat on this subject. Everything has gone up in price since then, and the officers have suffered a great deal through these petty economies. Even the allowance for the conveyance of baggage is insufficient. The regulations are good enough, but when an officer sends his baggage off and pays for the conveyance, the War Office comes in and makes a payment to him which is far less than what he has paid out to the railway company. I heard of a case in which an officer sent a ton of baggage by railway, and paid the charge, amounting to 28s. When the bill was forwarded to the Pay Office he was told, "We only allow two pence per ton per mile for baggage, and we will give you 8s." The officer was 20s. out of pocket. All these little things tend to the detriment of the good name of the Service. The charges for furniture for the messes and quarters of the officers are a source of perpetual annoyance. It is believed throughout the Service that the original cost of the furniture has been repaid many times over, and yet the continual charge of a penny per day goes on. If you would treat officers with the liberality and generosity with which they ought to be treated, you would not find difficulty in getting cadets at Sandhurst.
I wish, in referring to the Special Reserve, to call attention to the deficiency of 460 officers. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether some modification could not be made in the rule which requires Special Reserve officers to put in six months' training straight on end. I know that there are young officers, especially in the North of England, who would like to join the Special Reserve, but as they are just entering on business they are not able to give six months straight on end for their training. I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should consider whether it would be possible for these men to do their training in three or four different periods. If they were allowed to do that, and were thereby enabled to go on with their business, you might get the officers you cannot get at present. Another point I wish to bring to the right hon. Gentleman's notice is one upon which I have often asked questions before, namely, the advisability of paying the Reservists weekly, instead of quarterly as at present. This would be a great boon to the men. In some cases it would save the men loss of employment, while it would, at the same time, save the Service from discredit. The system of making payment in a lump sum quarterly is a temptation which the Government ought not to put in the way of some of these men. I cannot but think that the objections brought forward on behalf of the War Office to the payment of the Reservists weekly, in the same way as old age pensions are paid, do not meet the representations which have been made in favour of the change. The objections do not in any way sufficiently justify the refusal.
4.0 P.M.
Another point to which I desire to call attention is the question of the strength of the garrison at Malta. It has been said, I believe, by a very great naval authority, that if a landing was effected by an enemy's force at Malta, no further defence would be possible, and that there would be nothing left to do but for the commander of the garrison to send an invitation to the leader of the landing party to come to dinner! The right hon. Gentleman knows that the naval defence at Malta has been very seriously decreased of late, and that the landing of an enemy's troops there is now a possibility which we have got to recognise. The garrison at Malta of late years, instead of being strengthened to meet this deficiency in naval strength, has been reduced, and I would urge the Secretary of State, if he cannot spare from England British troops to strengthen the garrison, he should, at any rate, sanction the enlistment of more Royal Malta Artillery and Malta Militia. I believe the Malta local troops are good soldiers, and I am told that there would be no difficulty whatever in raising the required strength. I do trust that the right hon. Gentleman will take this into consideration, and inform us that a sufficient garrison will be provided at Malta in view of all contingencies. The Secretary of State, in the printed Memorandum which I have in my hand, has told us a good deal about the travelling kitchens he is providing for Infantry Divisions, but no mention has been made by him of travelling water-carts. I wish to call attention to that matter. The Secretary of State has given a very well-earned word of praise to the Royal Army Medical Corps in connection with the great reduction which has taken place in the death rate, sickness, and the number of invalids. During the South African war there were terrible losses from enteric and dysentry and other water-borne diseases. In the last few months we have heard of the very large number of deaths by cholera in the Balkan War. Our Army in late years has been equipped, at great expense, with a filter water-cart, and it is of the highest importance to us to know that this method of water purification is considered by those most competent to judge to be a reliable and efficient protection against water-borne diseases under war conditions. I wish to know whether the right hon. Gentleman will give us a report in regard to the trials of this filter water-cart in the field and at manœuvres. Will he tell us whether it has been adopted by India, or by any of the great Continental armies? Will he let us know exactly whether we have a water-cart which provides against disease under war conditions? The hon. Member for Central Hull referred yesterday to the necessity of supplies of stores and equipment being issued to regiments in this country in advance before the outbreak of a war. Looking through the Estimates this year I regret to see a decrease of no less than £119,000 under the head "supply of clothing," and a further decrease of £99,000 under the head of "harness, saddlery, camp equipage and stores." Does this reduction in stores mean that the reserves of stores have been cut down to find money for other purposes?
No.
We all remember that in the first weeks of the South African war the supplies of these very stores were exhausted, and it was impossible to get what was wanted in this country, and we had to get it from abroad. It is a dangerous thing for us to rely on getting these stores from abroad in case of war. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us an assurance on this point. There was one announcement in the Memorandum that I was very pleased to see, and that was the provision of married quarters for soldiers. Married soldiers and married officers have very much to suffer indeed. In many places no houses at all are available for them. Last year I mentioned the case of Salisbury Plain. There we had the War Office purchasing from a contractor disused huts that had been occupied by men who were building the barracks. These huts were done up as officers' quarters, and let out at a rent of £50. Is that the right way to treat officers? How can an officer be expected to live on his pay if the right hon. Gentleman takes half of it away from him as rent? Such an exorbitant rent was charged for the houses which were built at Tidworth, that few officers could afford to live in them. I believe that some of these houses have now been allotted at reduced rates. At Bulford, I believe, there is still a great shortage of quarters, and no private houses are to be got. That is the generous way in which officers are treated, and that is how married officers and soldiers have to suffer. By the Return given to me by the Secretary of State the other day, it appears that the unspent balances of the Army Estimates for the last five years average something like £200,000 a year. That is bad administration. If the War Office had been administered properly, some of this money might have been available, for the purchase of houses for married officers at places where they are required so badly. I know one case at Fermoy where a house was to be purchased for the general, and year after year the same thing occurred—there was no money available. Yet the War Office administration is so bad that this money is allowed to lapse, when with careful administration it could be devoted to the purchase of houses, not only there but in many other places. I hope that the administration of the War Office will be improved in this respect.
Military Forces (Shortage)
I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words, "this House regrets the serious shortage in the Military Forces of the Crown, and invites His Majesty's Government to state forthwith its concrete proposals for dealing with the situation."
I would like to move this Amendment, if possible, from an entirely non-party standpoint. Though the discussion has been on non-party lines, I am afraid that the Division will be taken on strictly party lines, because the vast majority of hon. Gentlemen who are not listening to the discussion and who will give their decision afterwards, will base their decision on the ordinary questions addressed to the Government Whips, as to whether they are to vote Aye or No. That is the inevitable result of our system so long as the Army is managed by Parliament. I suppose that it is absolutely impossible to alter it until there has been a bad smash, but I think it is a misfortune that it should go out to the country, as it will to-night, that this House does not regret the serious shortage in the military force of the Crown and does not invite His Majesty's Government to state forthwith their concrete proposals for dealing with the situation. The shortage is exceedingly serious. The situation is most grave. If the House of Commons does not regret it, people who do not know this country might take it that the country does not regret it, and in foreign countries it undoubtedly would have an unfortunate effect on those who are our friends, and a rather encouraging effect on those who are less friendly with us at the present time. Though I had not the privilege of hearing the speech of the right hon. Gentleman yesterday, I read it this morning, and it struck me that he was more or less satisfied with the present state of affairs. He pointed out that we had got 117,000 men of the Regular Army in India and the Colonies, 55,000 men ready for any emergency here, and 121,000 men in this country at the present time, and there were the usual statements of hope about the National Reserve and the Territorials.
Hope is a very sound thing, but we cannot live on hope. The right hon. Gentleman is not paid £5,000 a year to hope. He is paid that sum to supply us with an Army. Hope, obviously, does not take the place of an Army. We all hope we will win, but we shall certainly be beaten when it comes to fighting by people who have taken bigger steps than hoping. It is this perpetual optimism which is charming in the right hon. Gentleman, which is very disconcerting in discussing these serious matters. I may go a little more deeply into this question of the shortage of numbers. The right hon. Gentleman quoted the number of men. The age of a man varies according to the Act of Parliament. A man is a man at seventeen under the Army Act. Under the Insurance Act he does not become a man until he is twenty-one. He is a man as regards contributions, whether his contribution be four pence or whether it be his life under the Army Act, but under the insurance scheme he is not entitled to get the benefit, unless he happens to be married, until he is twenty-one. I can carry that argument further. Will anyone who has seen active service contend that it is a fair, proper, or fit thing to fill your ranks with boys of seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, or twenty? The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that no other countries take men into the Army until they are twenty-one, except France, which, owing to the necessity for increasing her peace establishment, has with great reluctance reduced the age to twenty; and that reduction is subject to a very serious medical test. We are content to fill our ranks with any kind of boys whom we can put into a khaki uniform and call soldiers. I call it criminal, and I call it deluding the country, because when the country reads the right hon. Gentleman's statement, and is told that we have got so many men, it believes that we have got the men. It does not believe that we have got boys.
That we, who claim to be the greatest nation, the most civilised, and the richest and largest Empire in the world, should allow the business of national defence to be relegated in such large measure on the one hand to children, and on the other hand to grandfathers, in the shape of the National Reserve, does seem to me to be a scandal. Furthermore, I do not believe that that in any way represents the view or the desires of the nation at large. If the nation were fully aware of this, the nation would at once say that this is not a dignified, proper or safe proceeding, and would insist, not on undertaking the burdens, but on enjoying the privilege of qualifying ourselves to defend the country. The right hon. Gentleman talks about burdens. I am not quoting from his speech, but it is the fashion to talk of military service as a burden. Is it a burden to give up a certain amount of time and put oneself under discipline? It depends on what we do it for. If we are so bereft of patriotism that the men of this country would not consent to give up their time, it is a bad look out. I do not believe that this represents the view of the country. We aim at getting 34,000 recruits. We only got 28,000, which was 6,000 short; and of that number 14,000 were under nineteen, and 5,000 were under twenty. Therefore 19,000 out of the 28,000 were a year younger, and some of them were two years younger, than any man who would ever be taken into service by any foreign nation against which they would ever have to fight.
Turning to the statistics on page 39 of the Army (Annual) Report, we find that those serving in the Army below the age of twenty are 14 per cent. Naturally we cannot send a boy under twenty to India or the Colonies, and the bulk of that 14 per cent., doubtless, is serving here at home. If we take 14 per cent. off the 28,000 which we have in this country, and add the additional percentage which you must allow for the low percentage serving in India, you will find that the number under twenty in this country is an appallingly large proportion. That is the Regular Army. The Special Reserve is still worse. Small and attenuated as it is, there are 29 per cent. of the men under twenty—that is, 29 per cent. are children. Of the Territorials, 79,000 out of 236,000—that is, 34 per cent.—are under twenty. That shows a most deplorable state of affairs. I was surprised yesterday to find that the right hon. Gentleman blamed those who are more or less well-to-do for not taking a larger share in the question of national defence. I suppose that we may now look forward to the delightful prospect of seeing the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues voting for a measure brought in by Lord Willoughby de Broke. That would satisfy in every way the right hon. Gentleman's view, so far as I understand, because it insists on those who are well off serving their country. But the criticism levelled against that measure has been that it is not merely the privilege of the well-to-do to serve the country, but that it is the privilege of the nation at home. Logically, that is what the right hon. Gentleman ought to do. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will not be able to say that I am unduly alarmist or have misread the Report. I have done my best to extract the correct figures from it. It is not possible to get over the fact that the establishment of the Army has been consistently reduced year after year ever since the right hon. Gentleman has been in power. There was an establishment of 286,000 of all ranks in 1905, and the establishment is now 255,000, in spite of the increase in the population and in the wealth of the country, and in spite of an increase in our responsibilities and liabilities. The reduction in strength has been from 272,000 to 247,000. Why are we alone of all nations in the world in a position to be able to reduce our armed land forces? What special dispensation have we from Providence to enable us to contemplate with satisfaction and security a position which no other nation in the world occupies? Is there anything responsible for the situation but the party exigencies of whatever political body happens to be in power? Both sides are equally to blame for this state of things.
I am not making a party point of this. We shall never remedy this state of things until it becomes an established rule that whoever you vote for, whether he be Radical, Socialist, or whatever he may be called, when he goes to Parliament will be pledged to keep the armed forces of the Crown in a proper position. You will never have anything right until that is done. Judging by the energy of our own Dominions across the seas, we are at present missing a golden opportunity. The unfortunate thing is that the party in power represents a section of the community who, no doubt perfectly honestly, do not attribute much importance to the armed forces of the Crown, whereas we on this side attribute to them very much more importance. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] In support of that statement I have only to ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to note the manner in which the Territorials are supported by the respective sides. Would the right hon. Gentleman view with equanimity the abandonment of all interest in the Territorials by the Lords Lieutenant of the country, and would he be content that they—the vast majority of them are Conservatives—should abandon the enormous amount of work they do now because they think it is patriotic for them to do so? He cannot assert that. Then my contention is perfectly justified that hon. Members opposite do not support the Territorials to anything like the same extent as we do. I see an hon. Gentleman opposite who is not, I think, a member of a Territorial regiment, but, as usual, he is most vociferous in supporting the system with everything but his time or his service. We give our time and our service, and are therefore entitled to speak in the manner in which I am speaking. If you have the curiosity to examine the Army List and compare it with Dod, you find that on our side there are fifty-seven members of the Territorial Force, while on the opposite side there are only about a dozen. Anybody who has endeavoured to obtain a Pair for his Territorial training knows that he cannot get it from hon. Gentlemen opposite. If they can controvert that statement I shall be very glad.
We ought to be in a fortunate position from the fact that the present Opposition supports heartily the measures, defective though they believe them to be, which the Government take for the safety of the country. It is fortunate for this reason: that if the Government would bring forward any reasonable scheme dealing with the matter of national defence they could be sure of support from this side. But they have not done so. When we get into power that will not be the case, and whatever we suggest in this connection will be viewed from the point of view of finance, and finance alone, and we shall be told that we are asking for too much money for a perfectly useless service, and that we had better rely on banquets, diplomacy, treaties, and all those things to which nobody attaches any value. Therefore, I say we are missing a golden opportunity. I should like to know what is the standard of comparison which the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends use in comparing the Army with others. The hon. Member for West Renfrewshire (Colonel Greig) always makes a lucid, but frankly party, speech on this subject. Yesterday he pointed out how much better the Army was to-day than it was at the time when the Conservative party went out of office. [HON MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] That statement is cheered by hon. Members who do not belong to any section of the Army. The hon. Member proceeded to admit that there had been a considerable reduction in numbers, and that the strength and the establishment had been greatly reduced.
I did not admit they had been reduced. What I said was that it was a very much more efficient machine than it was.
The hon. Member must admit that it has been reduced. There has been a reduction in strength from 950,000 to 930,000. Again, I should like to know what is the standard of comparison. Is the comparison between the Territorials as against the Volunteers? Why does the hon. Gentleman confine himself to the Volunteers, because he would get a better result if he compared the Territorials with the trained bands which existed in the old days and were armed with blunderbusses? These men, if they fight, are not going to fight with volunteers or trained bands, but will be called upon to fight the picked men of the military nations of the world. What is the use of telling us that the inefficient men—inefficient owing to the training they get—are better than the old Volunteers? A man who is insolvent may have debts amounting to £100 and £50 in his possession. He has £55 at a given time the next year, but he is still insolvent., although he has increased his position to the extent of £5. You cannot treat the matter of national defence on any basis except that of absolute security so far as the resources and power of the nation enable you to do so. That is not what we are doing. We are confined to such an Army as we can get for £28,000,000 per annum. We are told you can juggle the figures and give so much to this or so much to that, but that is all we can do. If the men do not come in we start an advertising campaign. We are said to be a nation of shopkeepers, and I suppose we are using the methods of shopkeepers to fill our Army. It is rather undignified for the country to do such a thing, and is it not still more undignified to find a certain general officer taking part in a variety entertainment between a ventriloquist and a conjuror? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I understand that was done, and I am referring to the campaign of the general who went round to smoking concerts. I know we have all done that for the purpose of getting into this House, but I think it is exceedingly humiliating to fill your Army in such a way. The result has been complete failure, because you have not succeeded in getting anything like your establishment, and a large proportion of those you do get are boys who have no business to be in the Army, but ought to be at school or learning a trade. Those are some of my grounds for contending that the position is unsatisfactory. While we are on the question of the standard of comparison, I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman has noticed an allusion in a foreign newspaper to the remarkable statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have had the curiosity to collect foreign newspapers which contained allusions to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's remarkable outburst before he went for his holiday in Africa. I have fifty-five different cuttings which I got from twenty-nine French papers, and in one of them there was this remark: position we are in to-day is that we have this body of men, insufficient in number, far too young in years, a large proportion of which is absolutely insufficiently trained, and we call it an Army.
If you desire peace you should hold the balance of power in order to maintain the equilibrium by which alone it can be maintained. If you have not got an Army, how are you to do so? The right hon. Gentleman no doubt disagrees with me on this subject, and he is, of course, entitled to his opinion, but do not let us have any misunderstanding. If we only want a police force, let us have a police force, but if we want an Army, let us have a real Army, and not a sham Army. The whole question turns on what we intend the Army to do. Our liabilities are for a certainty greater than those of any other nation. We have got, as the right hon. Gentleman told us yesterday, a larger proportion of our Army completely mobilised than any other Power. Not only is it completely mobilised, but we know that we cannot withdraw one single man from our troops in India, or in Egypt, or in the Mediterranean. That part of the Army is not only completely locked up, so far as being used anywhere except in those places concerned, but in the event of war we shall have to provide, since war is likely to take place in some of those countries, drafts to make up the wastage which is bound to occur. Therefore, we can eliminate any calculation that we shall have available for use in Europe, the troops that we have got in India, Africa, and the Mediterranean. That brings us down to the 121,000 men we have got in this country and to the Reserves, so that eventually we get to our Expeditionary Force of 162,000. I should like to know has the right hon. Gentleman reason to believe that we shall be in a position to send that 162,000 out of the country within a fortnight, or, at the outside, not longer that a fortnight, absolutely and completely equipped to be used in any part of the world where they would be called upon to act? I think that an answer is necessary to that.
If the right hon. Gentleman says "yes," our power towards maintaining peace is increased, and if he cannot say "yes," what is his position? You have the nations of Europe constantly adding to their forces which they count in hundreds of thousands, and you have Great Britain, which, whether we like it or not, is a European country, and which is in the European system, for good and all, unable, unless the right hon. Gentleman can tell us to the contrary, to put a paltry 162,000 men in the field. This is the kind of thing which we cannot hear too often, and we would like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman can send the Expeditionary Force, so far as he is concerned, wherever it may be wanted, complete with 162,000 men, within a fortnight from this shore. Unfortunately our discussions on these occasions, unreal as they are, are doubly unreal from the fact that we cannot discuss the whole question of national defence together. If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to say so, this year it is especially unreal, because the Prime Minister does not see fit to supply the most essential data for this discussion, namely, what is the present view of the authorities of this country as to the provision which ought to be made for resisting invasion. I am one of those who believe that in the future, as in the past, we shall provide against invasion not in this country, but outside of it. This country has been threatened with invasion frequently. We never warded it off here. We warded it off at a place called Waterloo, and we warded it off at a place called Trafalgar. I venture to think if ever we are threatened with invasion, unless we can prevent that invasion at a considerable distance from these shores, the game is up. If ever people do get into this country, the thing is done. That is my view on the subject, and, if I may be permitted to say so, I think that increases the force of the case I was endeavouring to put, namely, that we should have a real Army which could be used outside these shores in the shortest possible time. I think there is less likelihood of bloodshed if we do that. That may be some consolation to those Gentlemen who have a horror of bloodshed. I yield to nobody in my horror of bloodshed, but I think you ought to adopt a reasonable way of endeavouring to prevent it, and you cannot do so by saying you do not like it. That appeals to nobody, and yet it seems to be very much the attitude we adopt in this country.
To return to the question of the employment of our Army. We cannot touch the forces in India; they are the élite of the Army. There are none of them under twenty, as obviously you could not send them so young abroad. Those forces will be locked up in India, and do you really think that the other forces you have got are sufficient to meet the other require- ments of the country, and to what extent are you prepared to rely on the Territorials to fill up places which must be filled up? The Territorials, as I understand, were based on the idea that they would have six months' training. How on earth anybody could imagine that it would be possible to give six months' training to any part of the Army after the outbreak of war, and at the same time have that Army carrying on duties which were going to be abandoned by another part of the Army going elsewhere, I fail to understand. It is rather like the case of the man who decided to build a new school and to use the bricks of the old school, and yet to continue to use the old school while the new school was being built. That seems to be more or less the idea which underlies this case, and that you can have the Territorials ready at a moment's notice to jump into the breach and fill the gap that would be created by the employment of the Regular Forces of the Crown elsewhere, while at the same time the Territorials are not to be called on to do useful work until after six months' training. How do you reckon out the two things? Surely nobody thinks it is possible to give six months' training after the outbreak of war, and there is not the slightest prospect of getting that six months' training before the outbreak of war!
Imagine what an outcry there would be in this country supposing whoever occupied the position of Secretary of State came down here and said, "So far as the public is aware, the horizon is quite clear, but we, who have inside information and are in touch with the condition of the world, believe things are getting dangerous, and that it is desirable that the Territorials should be embodied to do training because they might be called upon to fight." Anybody can see that happening without raising a great outcry! You cannot train them for the reason that you dare not come down to this House before war broke out and call upon it to consent to the men being trained, while if you want, to do it after war has broken out it is too late. Those are some points in the situation. I venture to think they are very grave ones, and that the position with which we are confronted now gains additional gravity from the fact that it is a chronic position, and that it is a position which is inseparable from our system. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman of the examination of one of his predecessors in office by the Committee which sat after the South African war. I would remind him of questions put to Lord Lansdowne, the then War Minister, in these terms:— and take the risk of telling the country the truth, and the whole truth, far from embarrassing his party, it would redound to the credit of his party for many a long year. I do not believe that this country is less patriotic than any other. I believe if this country really was aware of the deficiences in our armed forces as compared with the forces of other countries, which must always be borne in mind, that this country would submit to any sacrifice, and wisely submit to any sacrifice, because any sacrifice for peace is far preferable to the terrible sacrifices of war. Let me quote, in conclusion, from a speech made by Lord Wolseley in the House of Lords. It has often been quoted, but it cannot be too often quoted:—
Like my hon. Friend, I do not intend in any way to approach the subject from a party or political point of view. If anything I may say in criticising the deficiencies which I believe to exist should savour of party politics, I assure the House it is not said in that spirit. Personally I would infinitely prefer to see the whole question of defence removed from the arena of party politics altogether, and placed in a somewhat similar position to that occupied by foreign affairs. There is no doubt that at the present time extreme apathy exists throughout the country in regard to this matter. That apathy extends in a great measure to this House also. It is very remarkable that in every foreign country when questions of defence are under discussion in the Legislature you always find the House packed; whereas in this country on similar occasions the House is usually half empty, and, to say the least of it, the interest is languid. Only yesterday, when the Secretary of State was introducing the Estimates for the defence of this great Empire, the number of Members present was very small, and during the greater part of the speech there were only thirty or forty present, and some of those were asleep.
What is the reason for this attitude? I do not think we have far to go to find the answer. It is that we are not a military nation. As a nation, moreover, we have no war history. I lay particular stress on the word "nation." I entirely distinguish the nation from the Army. The Army has a great and brilliant war history. Individual regiments have their war history. But that is not the nation. The nation as a nation has never fought another nation. We have fought among ourselves. If you go back to the days of Marlborough, he had only 32,000 men in the field. The utmost number of men that Wellington had in the Peninsula was 42,000. For the great achievement at Waterloo there were only 35,000, and a great many of those were in plain clothes. What we have done as a nation is, not only that we have fought among ourselves, but we have paid other nations to fight for us. Again, going back to history, I may remind the House that before the battle of Austerlitz every Austrian soldier had 10s. in gold in his pocket. There are many other cases that I could quote. Those times have passed. You can no longer buy nations. Nations as they become military nations are not to be bought. In future, in the matter of defence, we have to rely only upon the strength of our own right arm. Coming to the question of actual deficiencies, my numbers vary a little from those of the Secretary of State, who, of course, has better opportunities than I have of verifying them, and whose figures probably are more up to date. After all, numbers are easily conjured with in different ways, and there are a good many veiled effects behind the figures which would only become patent in the event of mobilisation.
What are the actual numbers as regards the Regulars? According to my figures, on the 1st February, there was a deficiency of 9,223. The Secretary of State yesterday gave the number as a little over 8,000. His figures are, I take it, up to date, and I am glad to think that, owing to the advertising which he has carried out, and upon which I congratulate him, the numbers of the Regular Army have probably increased. But in the Regular Army, I would remind the House, there are about 24,000 men under the age of twenty. As regards the Special Reserve, on the 1st February, according to my figures, there was a deficiency of 13,699, and there were 16,820 men under twenty years of age, making a total of 32,519 who could not actually take their place alongside the Regulars. The Territorials were 61,348 short, with 79,333 under twenty years of age, making a total deficiency of 140,681. I propose to go a little deeper into these figures. As has been pointed out, we take men for our Regular troops nominally at the age of nineteen. A great many of these men would be, if the truth were known, about eighteen. No Continental nation takes men under twenty-one years of age. Therefore if our troops were opposed to Continental troops, you would be asking men of nineteen to fight men of twenty-one or twenty-two. That is a practical impossibility.
Why?
Because a man of nineteen has nothing like the physical strength of a man of twenty-two. You might just as well take one of Stephenson's engines, put it alongside an up-to-date locomotive, and expect it to pull the same number of trucks. It is an absolute impossibility. A second handicap, and a very important one, is as regards the number of Reserves who on mobilisation would be drafted into the Regular Army. I do not know what the exact number is, but I do not think I am far out when I say that 65 per cent. of the mobilised force would consist of Reserves. These men, although excellent in physique, would have lost the best of the training required for soldiers. They would come from the factory, the bench, and every sort of civil employment; they would be drafted into the ranks, and, if we were fighting a foreign nation, within a few days you would be placing these comparatively unfit men in front of armies trained up to the highest pitch of perfection. What would be the result? Armies are very like navies. Navies have to conduct the whole of their operations according to the steaming capacity of their slowest ship. It is exactly the same in regard to armies. They have to conduct the whole of their campaigns according to the marching ability of their slowest units. You would handicap the whole of any other army with which you were allied if you had this great mass of comparatively unfit or untrained men.
Another point of great importance is that the Reserves take much longer to mobilise. You have to collect them from every part of the country. I am of opinion that they would come up, almost to a man, but still they would take time. Time is becoming more and more the most important element in war. I need only remind the House of what happened in the last great war that was fought. Not only was the outbreak of war very sudden, but a great general action was fought within a very few weeks. War was declared on the 10th October. The battle of Lulabourgas, which was the one big general action of the war, began on the 23rd of the same month. On the 9th November, a month from the outbreak of war, the enemy were knocking at the doors of the capital of their opponents. Exactly the same thing happened in the Franco-German War. War was declared on the 23rd August. The decisive battles—Vionville, or Mars-la-Tour, and Gravelotte—of that campaign began on the 18th September, and in a month the whole of that war was settled. In the last struggle between the Bulgarians, the Servians and the Greeks, the whole war from start to finish was over in twenty-three days. Therefore, every day of delay that you have in collecting or mobilising your troops is so much advantage to your adversary. Now I come to the Special Reserve. Unless I am very Much mistaken, a very large number of officers would have to be taken from the Special Reserve on mobilisation. I shall be glad if the right hon. Gentleman will say whether I am right on that point. As regards numbers, what allowance is being taken for losses in general actions? The Special Reserve are the only people upon whom we have to rely to make good the losses in battle in the ranks of the Regular Army. Taking the very low estimate of 15 per cent. of the whole number engaged, it would mean that in three general actions, which might take place in ten days or a fortnight, you would lose about 6,000 men. Allowing three times that number for losses from sickness, you would have a depletion of over 20,000 from those causes alone.
5.0 P.M.
Now I come to the Territorials. As to the six months' training, which has always been the great difficulty, it is really ludicrous to talk about it. We shall never have six months' grace. Untrained men will always fail, as they have always failed in the past, before trained men. I could give many historical instances where that has happened. The greatest instance known to history is that of the campaign of 1870, when General Von Werder, with 32,000 trained men, not only defeated but drove across the Swiss frontier 320,000 untained men under General Bourbarkai—men trained in exactly the same manner as our Territorial Force. If I had time I could give many other instances. One other important deficiency which has not been largely referred to, is the deficiency in trained staff officers in the Territorial Force in case of mobilisation. Staff officers are the ears and the eyes of the Army in the field at the present moment. I have no hesitation in saying, from personal investigation of nearly every one of the fields of battle in Thrace, that the whole of the successes gained by the Bulgarians and the Servians in the war were entirely owing to their excellent staff work. They were able to place a certain number of men in certain places with a certain amount of ammunition, and to keep them there. Likewise the general failure which accompanied the Turkish arms was owing to the fact that they could not carry out those duties. In 1911 I asked Lord Haldane a question in the House on this very subject:— I find still the same six staff officers. Two of them are brigade majors, really engaged in brigade duties connected with local brigades, while also included in the six are the medical and sanitary officers. I do not think anybody who has had anything to do with the soldier will consider the medical and sanitary officers to be staff officers of the first class! On the War Establishment for Mobilisation I see (page 48) that a Regular Division has sixteen Regular staff officers, thirty-two sergeants, and a total, I think it is, of sixty-four of all ranks on the general staff. All you are giving our Territorials is six staff officers—no other allowance at all. I should like to know Where these staff officers are coming from? You cannot take them on the spur of the moment. You cannot pick them up in the street. Is the right hon. Gentleman going to take antiquated fossils like myself from the National Reserve, men who twenty-five or thirty years ago did a considerable amount of staff work? I should very much like to know where these staff officers are coming from. I am afraid I have taken up too much of the time of the House. My excuse must be that on other questions I do not, as a rule, engage much of the time here, but on this question I feel deeply and strongly. In any case, I am very like Lady Godiva approaching the end of her ride: I am getting down to my close.
I would make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman. He has done many gallant actions, both in peace and in war. I do not think, and I have not said a word to suggest that I believe the right hon. Gentleman is responsible for the deficiencies which I believe exist in our Forces. I do not say that his predecessor was to blame. I attach every bit as much blame to the right hon. Gentlemen who have filled the post of Secretary for War on our side of the House. None of these Ministers have dared to propose—I almost said had the pluck—to take the nation into their confidence in regard to this deficiency. All for what? All for the sake of these miserable party politics! Certainly I have criticised the system and the scheme under which we are working at the present time. The predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman, Lord Haldane, is a man of extraordinary ability and great knowledge; but if this shortage which I have endeavoured to show is the result of his reorganisation, then I can only wish that he had devoted his great abilities to the reorganising of his own profession. Speaking as an old soldier, I say that he might have reduced both their numbers and emoluments with considerable advantage to the State, and to the corresponding benefit of the community. My appeal too the Secretary for War is this: he yesterday admitted some of the deficiencies which exist. I ask him still further to take us and the nation into his confidence, and state what are the great deficiencies with which he has to deal, particularly in the case of mobilisation. If he will do that, well, then, I say that not only will he have the support, the entire support, of everybody on this side of the House; he will earn the gratitude of the whole country, and will be handed down to history as a far greater man than any of his predecessors.
I do not profess, like other hon. Gentlemen who have taken part in this Debate so far, to be an expert on the subject under discussion. But I would suggest that it is necessary that those who are experts, and who speak as old military men, should understand that there is another side to the question, that side from which the question is looked at by the ordinary citizen. Another thing it would be as well to understand by those who themselves have been connected with the Army is that it is not always a fact that the citizen does not take any interest in military affairs. Nor is it always the case that citizens do not understand military matters—certainly militarism! I suggest that it would be quite an easy matter to contest every proposition that has been put forward, and the axioms that evidently are accepted by military men as being beyond dispute, and to support the opposite with equal authority to any that has been suggested so far during this Debate. Take the case that is particularly interesting to me as to whether a young lad of nineteen may be a capable soldier. I confess that that is rather a low age, and as a rule, the country would be well advised not to have that type of men for foreign service. It is, however, a moral certainty that there are many exceptions to the rule. My papers will show that I signed into the Army as a young man of twenty-four when I was eighteen. I went through a campaign before I was nineteen, and I am here, which shows, after all, that both the climatic conditions and the actual experience of a campaign can be performed without much loss of physique or health in the case of a very considerable proportion of those lads who have been disposed of here to-day by the hon. Member for Rugby with a wave of his hand as though they were not of the slightest importance in our military organisation. I have got two sons, neither of whom are nineteen. They would compare with any of the conscripts that you may see in any of the European armies.
I am positive of this, because I have taken the trouble to watch and examine the Armies on the Continent at manœuvres, and I say that if you take our Territorials as I saw them on Salisbury Plain, and the conscripts, as I have seen them, say in the South of France, that the conscripts are not comparable to our men. I do not know whether hon. and right hon. Gentlemen speaking here imagine that our men are less brave, but certainly so far as physique, set-up, and manhood are concerned, our men are as good as any of the men that I have seen on the Continent of Europe. So far as our Regular Army is concerned, neither of the hon. Members who have spoken would surely attempt to compare any foreign soldiers that I have seen with our Regular soldiers—not even those of Germany! Men look at these European armies, and they form an opinion. They are entitled to their own judgment; but I am speaking now as one trying to estimate what seems to be the physique of these men after having had the opportunity, I am pleased to say, of seeing them at their work. I do not think we ought to be so ashamed of our young men as it would almost appear we ought to be from the speeches that have been delivered here this afternoon.
Will the hon. Member forgive me. I am the last man in the world to be ashamed of our young men. What I am ashamed of is the country taking boys of eighteen and nineteen and asking them to do the work of men of twenty-one and twenty-two.
That relates to policy. I wish to say a word o two about that directly. One other contention was put forward by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who seconded the Amendment. He claimed that the whole history of war showed that the untrained man was of no consequence whatever in a campaign when he was opposed by the trained man. He gave two or three instances to support his contention. He said that he did not think that any case could be put in opposition to that contention. I think there are cases, Take one. On which side were the trained men at Bunker's Hill? It is a fact that history will attest that men who are imbued with an ideal such as defending their country, or standing for what they believe to be right—that when banded together with those ideas they are always more formidable as military antagonists, and ever have been, than ordinary trained soldiers who are fighting merely because they are ordered to fight. Surely the hon. and gallant Gentleman has an illustration of the truth of what I say in our own recent history. Farmers taken from the veldt made a very creditable military display, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Sir R. Pole-Carew), who is evidently going to take part in the Debate, has had personal experience of their ability. They were no mean fighters. It was not a very easy or safe business to face an equal number of them with trained troops. There is no doubt about that. I venture to say, on this generalisation suggested by the hon. Member for Rugby, that the game was up if our military organisation and want of attention and preparation made it possible for any enemy to land upon these shores. There is nothing of the character of our people to justify such a state of affairs. I dare say the game would be up if we lost the command of the sea, but I should say it would take a very formidable Army to march from John O'Groats to Lands End and dispose of us unless the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to take a very low estimate of our people, which I do not suppose he is.
What I concern myself about is the question in regard to policy. I think when a Motion of this description is put forward declaring that the number of men at present provided in the Army is quite insufficient, the hon. Member for Rugby is quite right when be said, "You have to decide when settling a question such as this what is the policy in reference to our military forces, and what you want the Army for," because upon the answer to that question entirely depends the affirmative or the negative of the Resolution the hon. Gentleman proposes. What is it that the ordinary citizen thinks we require an Army for? I suggest I am merely voicing the opinion of hundreds and thousands of workmen who have take the trouble to consider the situation, when I say this is their view. Our Army is necessary in this Empire of ours, largely as a great military police. Thus, as the hon. Member for Rugby suggested, our idea is that what we require is a great military police to defend this Empire from outside interference, and also to maintain our authority within our own territories. That is what we imagine our Army is for. The question therefore is, have we a sufficient force for that purpose? I think we have, and all the speeches delivered this afternoon seem to point to that conclusion. The speech of both the hon. Member for Rugby and the hon. and gallant Member for Bath suppose that we are going to interfere in European complications. The whole burden of their song is, that you must have a striking force sufficient to enable you to mobilise within the course of a few days and launch your force against some supposed enemy on the Continent. That is the whole basis of their contention so far, but that is a different policy to the one I was suggesting a moment ago. I am trying to do justice to the argument as I understood it, that you cannot defend this country. I understood that the idea is that really what you have to do to defend your own country is to enter the territory of another country.
We have always done it in the past.
I venture to say, there is no necessity for such a condition of affairs. The hon. Member for Rugby very likely considers it rather peculiar that the Labour Members usually have voted for the Navy, whatever sums were demanded, I am not able to discuss that, but it bears out what our ideas are upon the subject. We assume our Navy ought to be kept supreme, and that, therefore, invasion should be almost an impossibility. Of course, if it is not supreme, if one could imagine for one moment that the Navy is in such a condition that there is a possibility of invasion, then the only question we have to consider is whether our Army is in such a condition as to prevent successful invasion on a large scale; but that, is another matter entirely. The assumption is that our Navy is supreme is what the ordinary citizen goes on, and that is why the ordinary citizen resists in every possible way the proposal put forward by military men in favour of compulsion in reference to our military service. It is because they believe the Navy is supreme, and that there is no possibility of invasion, that they believe the only pro- vision necessary is such military preparation as to enable us to protect our own territories and to maintain order within our territory. Of course, I quite understand that if another policy is to be adopted, if it is going to be considered part of the business of our country to be entangled in European diplomacy and affairs, and whether we have a quarrel with other nations or not, that we are to join in because other nations with whom we have some kind of a shadowy agreement do so, then, of course, a policy of that description requires a great Army, and if His Majesty's Government have any idea of such a policy our present Army is not sufficient. There is no doubt about that, if we are going to interfere in European affairs our Army is not sufficient, and, in such circumstances, every statement made by hon. Gentlemen opposite is unquestioned and beyond dispute; but we support the Government so far, believing that it is not their intention to embroil themselves unnecessarily in European complications. I will describe, as far as I can, what my idea is. If it is the intention of the Government merely because of some shadowy agreement, irrespective of whether our interests are endangered or not, to interfere, then I say that is a policy we have not agreed to, and if such a policy were intended for a moment this Army is not sufficient for such a purpose. But, of course, that is the whole contention from beginning to end. The hon. Member for Rugby did quite right in stating that if it was our intention to interfere in the military affairs of Europe, irrespective of whether our interests are concerned or not—
I did not say anything like that at all.
I know the hon. Member did not say it, but it was understood. I understood from the observations of the hon. Member that there was an arrangement by which we might be involved in European conflagration without any attempt whatever being made to interfere with us; that there was an understood compact between our Government and other Governments that certain assistance should be rendered, provided they were attacked in certain ways. I only go as far as that, and I say they are quite right in bringing forward statements as to the inadequacy of the present military organisation in circumstances like that, because it is morally certain that nothing hon. Gentlemen could do towards a voluntary basis would be successful. I doubt whether conscription, unless on a very severe scale, would be sufficient in such circumstances. You would not only want a million of men to maintain order within our borders, but you would require another million of men for foreign war and aggression in other countries of Europe, and conscription that is on a national service basis would not be sufficient to maintain a policy of that sort. I venture to say, therefore, understanding our policy to be what it has always been hitherto, of non-interference in European affairs except where our own material interests are involved, the present Army is amply sufficient.
The question before the House has been put so very admirably by my hon. Friend who moved this Motion and by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who seconded it, that I feel there is little left to be said. I have had some little experience of warfare, and I wish to offer a few remarks upon the present state of His Majesty's Army. In the first place, I should like to say I entirely agree with the hon. Member who has just sat down, that we should be told once for all what the Army is for. Yesterday I was delighted to hear the Secretary of State, when he first got up, say it might be for the convenience of the House if he explained what the Army is for. I thought, "Well, now, this is the first time it has ever been suggested that this information should be given to the House or the country," and I waited and waited, and when the right hon. Gentleman sat down I knew no more about what the Army was for than when he got up. I may be very dense, and very likely I am, but I could not understand or make out that he gave any information whatever on the subject. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Stoke that the country should know for what reasons we maintain an Army. I have often heard the question asked, "Do we regulate the strength of our defensive forces to fit in with our diplomacy, or do we regulate our diplomacy to fit in with the strength of our defensive forces?" I confess I think we should be wise to adopt the latter course. I wish there was not so much unreality about these Debates. It is impossible to discuss the Navy to-day, yet in making suggestions with regard to the Army from the conditions and circumstances of our Empire, it is impossible to do so with any satisfaction until we know how we stand with regard to our Navy. It is impossible for this reason: We are not only an island, and therefore dependent upon the supremacy of the sea, but we are a great Empire—the greatest the world has ever known—and the safety of that Empire is entirely dependent upon the Navy. Personally, I have very great doubt whether our Army could now be transported to any spot outside this country at any time to be of any use, or that we could clear the seas to permit us to do so. I think that is the first question we should inquire into.
The hon. Member for Stoke has mentioned South Africa. There, I agree, we had great difficulty with the trained Army in dealing with untrained men, but I think I may say there were exceptional circumstances, and that, it was an exceptional country such as you are not likely to meet with in other parts of the world. Still there is a good deal in the argument of the hon. Gentleman with regard to the present question. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not think I am doubting his word. I confess, as we are told year by year, that we are able and ready to send a force of 162,000 men either to the Continent or some other part of the world, that I get more and more puzzled to know where on earth the right hon. Gentleman is going to get the men. He is a conjurer I have no doubt. I almost think he has a widow's cruse of soldiers in his pocket. He has told us that since last year we are deficient again in the strength of our Regular Army, and surely after all, with our Empire, it is no use talking about Territorials and Special Reserve. The real point is that we must have a Regular Army of such a strength and efficiency as is necessary for our Empire. On the 1st of January, 1913, we were over 5,000 men short, and on the 1st January, 1914, the right hon. Gentleman tells us that we were 8,000 short, but I make it out that we are 12,000 short.
I do not think the hon. and gallant Gentleman was here yesterday when we cleared this matter up. There is a net shortage of 8,000 men with the Colours and a surplus in the Reserve of 13,000. The net shortage is explained by the fact that we have a surplus abroad of the Regular Army with the Colours and a larger deficiency at home.
Would that account for the difference between the 8,000 and 12,000?
Yes, Sir.
If we have a surplus abroad, it is not available for the 162,000 of the Expeditionary Force nor for the defence of this country. Therefore you must wipe that out of your calculation. As to the force we have got now, we have, out of the 121,000 men, 28,000 under twenty years of age. If they were all of the physique of the hon. Member for Stoke and his family, no doubt they would be able to take the field at nineteen, but there are always exceptions which prove the rule. It has been decided by experts and medical men that you cannot and should not send men under the age of twenty to go through a campaign, from which it is not likely that they would come home. It is not wise for us to take those men into the Army when you cannot use them. That is the case with us now. We have fewer men year by year, and yet we propose to send somewhere this Expeditionary Force of a larger number of men than we ever attempted to do before, although we know we have reduced our establishment very heavily during the last few years. I think the right hon. Gentleman should recognise that in the South African War we had the Militia to help us. We had then 124 battalions of Militia mobilised, and they released a very large number of battalions of the Regular Army. The right hon. Gentleman has not that force to fall back on now. You may put the strength of a Militia battalion at about 500, and that means about 62,000 men. Where is the right hon. Gentleman going to get that 62,000 from? Nevertheless, he says he is going to send 160,000 men abroad, but it seems to me that that is impossible.
We do not know what the policy of the Government is, but I seem to recollect that the Foreign Secretary told us on one occasion that we had a certain arrangement with a foreign Power by which we hoped to be able to supply a certain number of men to help them in case of need. Has it ever been considered that besides this we have very large Dependencies for which we are responsible? Has it ever been considered that we have reduced our establishments and garrisons in the Mediterranean to almost a dangerous extent? Has it ever been thought possible that on the outbreak of war, or before or immediately after, we might have to send a large force to reinforce Egypt or India, or our garrisons in the Mediterranean, or elsewhere? Is it a wise thing to promise or make any suggestion that you will send a large number of men somewhere on the Continent and lock them up there when you might want them the very next day to look after your own Empire? We know the Special Reserve is in such a condition that it is short of officers and men, and yon cannot rely upon them as a very strong force at your back. We know the Territorials cannot be relied upon to defend this country, and although we hope that the Navy is sufficiently strong to protect these shores, we know what happened during the naval manœuvres. Naval experts have told us, although they have gone back on their word afterwards, that we cannot rely entirely upon the Navy to prevent an invasion. It would be most unwise in the present state of our Army to propose to send a large force to the Continent and to neglect our own Empire.
What does the hon. and gallant Gentleman mean by saying that we have gone back on our word afterwards?
What I mean Is that the First Sea Lord, not very long ago, gave this country to understand that the Navy could not be relied upon by itself to prevent an invasion. What I mean by saying that he has gone back on his word was an announcement made by the First Lord of the Admiralty within the last few days.
As the First Sea Lord is not here to defend himself, and as the First Lord of the Admiralty is not here either, I think I am entitled to say at once, with a full knowledge of the facts, that I repudiate entirely the wholly unwarranted statement which the hon. Gentleman has made. I repudiate it most warmly, and it should never have been made.
I really do not understand what the right hon. Gentleman means. He may repudiate anything he likes, but it is not my fault that the First Lord of the Admiralty is not here, and it is not my fault that the First Sea Lord is at public servant. The First Sea Lord did make an announcement, and whether he meant what he said or did not. I do not know, but it is public property. The First Lord of the Admiralty, two or three days ago, did say that the general acceptation of that announcement was not that which was intended to be meant. Have I said any harm? All I can say is that I do not think so. It is a most extraordinary thing that, with the present Government, if one says a single word either about the naval or the military advisers they always say you have no right to speak about absent men. In many other countries I believe it is the custom to publish with the Army and Navy Estimates of the year the Reports of the naval and military experts employed in the Admiralty and the War Office, and I wish that were done here, for we should then know where we are. At the present moment we have the right hon. Gentleman sitting on the Treasury Bench, and, When it is convenient, screening himself behind the reports of the experts, and at other times, when we ask whether they are acting on the advice of their experts, we have them telling us that we have no right to mention those experts at all. I should like to know what we are to do. If the naval and military reports of experts were published with the Army Estimates, we should know what they really do think and what is really right or wrong.
With regard to the shortage of men, that is the most important point for us to consider at the present moment. I am sorry to say that I am old enough to have served in the Army before the days of Mr. Cardwell. I joined the Army forty-five years ago. When I first joined we had a long-service Army, and our system was twelve years with the Colours, and the men with good characters were allowed to extend for nine years more, making twenty-one years, and they served for a pension. That was a reason for men to join. I do not mean for one moment to say that we had not then times when it was difficult to get men, and there were times when we had plenty, when trade was good and bad, and it is the same thing now. There is a factor now which there was not then, and it is emigration. In those days there was practically no emigration, but now it is easy, and I sympathise with the boys of this country who want to go to another country where life is freer and employment is better. That is bad for the Army and the Navy. When Mr. Cardwell altered the system of service in the Army it was because the Franco-Prussian War had just been fought, and we found that other nations could employ a large number of men backed up with great reserves. We had a magnificent army as far as physique went, and we were fit to go anywhere. We had a peace establishment practically the same as the war establishment, but it, is a very different thing now. The Army was able to move, or would have been able to move, if the arrangements had been better; and as far as the personnel was concerned, it could take the field at a moment's notice. More than that, for our battalions abroad, Cavalary regiments and other units when they went abroad to serve in India or elsewhere, we formed depôts in this country from which they were supplied with the men they required while abroad.
Mr. Cardwell very properly said, "Yes, and you have got no Reserve." We had no Reserve, and we had no means of making a Reserve, and therefore a shorter service was necessary, and a short service system was brought in. Then I think they made a great mistake. I fancy for economical reasons they arranged that the units in this country instead of the depots that had been in existence before, should provide those abroad with the annual drafts required during their term of service in other countries. The effect of that has been disastrous. I have always said the same thing. It looks well on paper, but for this country, where the conditions of our Empire are always changing, it is an impossible system. I wish the right hon. Gentleman to understand that I am not opposing the present Government. I am merely speaking from my humble experience of a good many years, and I say that as long as that system lasts you cannot expect to have a really good striking force in this country. It is an impossibility. The units of this country are of necessity what Lord Wolseley called "squeezed lemons," and, as time goes on and it gets more difficult to get men, they will become still more so. You will get fewer men in the ranks, and on mobilisation more men from the Reserves, and that must be bad.
I say that system has been worked out, and we had better think of something else. It is the system that is wrong; it is not the right hon. Gentleman or his advisers. It is the system. The system for this country is impossible. The conditions or this Empire are changing every year, and I believe that I am right in saying that the system has never even been given a chance, because there has always been, until a very short time ago, more units abroad than in this country. It has only been possible to have more here lately by bringing regiments home from South Africa. Unless you are actually equal at home and abroad the system cannot work. One unit abroad upsets the whole show. In any case you have a "squeezed lemon." If you want to have an Army at all, have one upon which you can depend, have one that is good, one able to protect the Empire, and able to help our friends in case of necessity. You have not one, and you cannot mobilise quickly, you cannot send your Expeditionary Force, and you cannot protect your Empire if you do not have one. That is my contribution to this Debate. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will consider whether we are to continue a system which has never worked well, which cannot work well in the future, and which I think with the great difficulty that there is now in getting men is sure to fail. I heard the right hon. Gentleman say yesterday—I know it to be perfectly true—that however much you may desire to employ Reserve men in Government billets, there are not sufficient billets to go round. That is perfectly true, but at the same time we also know from the Secretary of State for War that there are a large number of men who left this last year.
Twenty-eight thousand.
Out of that 28,000, 24,000 are employed.
Twenty-four thousand with good characters.
If those 24,000 men are employed, they are employed by a great many private employers, and, although the Government billets may not be sufficient to go round, surely it is better for the Government to employ as many men as they possibly can in the Post Office, in the police, and in any Government billets, that are going. At the present time you employ a very small percentage, I think it is 26 per cent., and that was only increased by 1 per cent. during the last twelve months. If you employ as many men as you can, you will find that you will not only set a good example to the rest of the employers in the country, but you will also do the Service a very good turn. Unless you can hold out more baits to men to join the Service, you will not get your Army. I can give you an instance from my own experience. Before the abolition of the long service and the pension, we obtained a large number of men, some of the best men we had, from the Western counties, sons of small farmers. The moment the pension was abolished what happened? It was retained in the Marines, and not one single man did we get again; they all went to the Marines. Why? Because they got long service and pensions. Because they had something to serve for. I will tell you another instance. When they first brought in the three years' service with the Brigade of Guards, it was extremely difficult to get men. The authorities cast about to think what they could do, and they offered billets in the Metropolitan and other police forces to all men of good character who had served three years in the Brigade of Guards. I had the honour then of commanding a battalion, and I had the honour of serving with the best men, physically and morally, that I have ever seen, simply because they had something to serve for.
I know that the House will agree with me that, if you want men of a good class, you must give them something worth serving for. It is the fashion to say, and it is perfectly true, that there is only a certain number of men you can depend upon to enlist in the Army every year. That is perfectly true and always has been. There are, however, much better classes that you would like to get in the Army, and if you hold out sufficient bait you would get them. We have already proved it. My contention is that if the right hon. Gentleman will only put his mind to that and not to juggling with figures, not to trying to deceive the country—I apologise to him for the word deceive: trying to persuade the country that which is is not—and, what I think is far worse, running the risk of deceiving your allies as well, because it is so if you promise them 160,000 men and you cannot send them; if you will only do that, if you will set your mind to work to consider what you can do in the way of giving men something to serve for, and, if possible, Government billets, service in which together with the time that they have given in the Army they can count for pensions, then I think you will find that you will not have so much difficulty with your recruiting.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Baird) upon introducing this Amendment. With him, I regret the serious shortage in the Forces of the Crown, and I further regret that the Government has no concrete proposals to meet the situation other than the advertisement proposals, which have admittedly failed. I seems, from the statement the right hon. Gentleman made yesterday, that he increased the number of recruits as the result of those advertisements by 1,000 in five weeks. If that is the result after five weeks, I say that it is a colossal failure, whether the Secretary of State for War agrees with me or not. Anyone who knows about this vast expenditure in full-page advertisements in papers would consider it a failure if over a period of five weeks no better results were obtained than have been obtained by this latest and commendable attempt on the part of the War Office. I regret that the hon. Member for Rugby did not give any concrete proposals for dealing with the situation. It is a very simple thing to condemn any administration for a shortage in the forces, but I am bound to confess that it is an extremely difficult thing to set out concrete proposals that will make our voluntary Army equal to any situation that it may be called upon to fill. That brings one to the question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down.
What is the British Army for? It is not for the defence of Canada, Africa, New Zealand, or Australia. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] There is not a public man in any one of those Dominions who counts upon the British Army to assist him if he gets into any trouble. They consider themselves so geographically situated that they could not need the British Army—and when I say the British Army, I mean at least an Army Corp, and not a scattered regiment hero and there—or they consider their own military efficiency and numbers adequate to whatever demands may be brought upon them. Therefore, I repeat that the South Africans, Australians, Canadians, and New Zealanders do not count upon the British Army, and they do not think that they will need the British Army to assist them. Each of those Dominions is taking steps to look after itself for two main reasons: First, because they are so loyal to this old country that they think that the time has come to relieve the Mother Country of the great burden of protecting, not only herself, but also her scattered Dominions.
I never mentioned them.
6.0 P.M.
I am not accusing the hon. and gallant Gentleman of mentioning them. I am giving him information which he apparently did not know before. I am glad to see him in accord with me on that information. I say that the Dominions oversea are seriously attempting to provide a military force adequate to any demand that may be made upon them, so that in considering the possible use of the British Army I say that the House has a right to eliminate these four great Dominions. I speak with, feeling and pride here as a Colonial, and I say further that the Mother Country should appreciate the efforts that are being made by these Dominions, especially by Australia and by New Zealand. They realise that this old country cannot always, either in a military or naval sense, adequately protect the far-flung frontiers of the whole Empire. I make that sub mission with pride and certainty, but I make this submission with humility: The British Army can only be used for the defence of this country in India or in the Mediterranean. Our regiments may be sent to control parts of South Africa and so on, but the use of the whole Army, an Army Corps or more, must be restricted to those three portions of the world. That being so, I submit it is impossible to rule out the possibility of the British Army being used on the Continent of Europe. What is the use of any War Minister suggesting to this House, after what has happened in recent years, that the British Army is only to be used for police purposes in this country or in order to resist invasion. My criticism of the War Secretary, and of his learned predecessor, is that the War Office suffers under the great delusion that it is not good policy to tell this country and this Empire the real objects of the British Army. If it is a fact that the War Office has no clear and precise policy as to the use of the British Army, it is a most humiliating confession; but if they have a concrete and carefully thought out scheme for any possible demand that may be made on our military forces, I submit that this House ought to know it. It finds the money, and it never refuses to find the money, however much; may be asked. You will never arouse this country from the apathy it displays towards the Army, or from the indifference with which it treats a debate on the Army, until the people know what the War Office thinks the British Army is for. Of course, the Secretary for War will not say that he agrees with me even if he does so. He is not only a soldier, but he is an official. We have a good precedent. No other country conceals from its people the objects of its Army. The Australian and New Zealand Governments—both, by the way, Labour Governments—when they introduced their systems of military service, made it clear why they thought their particular systems were necessary, and the response that came from the people of those Colonies is one of the most remarkable things in British history and in democratic government. But in the Mother Country there are few men, if any, in the House of Commons, which is asked to vote millions at the bidding of the Secretary for War, who have the slightest conception of the objects of the Army which we are supporting, and we cannot get from the Secretary for War one clear-cut sentence as to the objects of that Army.
There is undoubtedly a serious shortage in the military forces of the Crown, and I hope the House will allow me to speak for a few moments on that question of shortage. The Secretary for War, in his most interesting speech yesterday, spoke feelingly about the after careers, or lack of careers, of men who leave the Army after seven years' service with the Colours. But why let them go after seven years' service with the Colours? It is an extraordinary thing, but the Army is the only calling in life in which a man is dismissed as soon as he becomes efficient. The Secretary for War compares the career of a postal servant, a Civil servant, or a policeman with the career of a soldier. But the comparison is not fair to the soldier. The Civil servant, and, indeed, men in all other vocations in life, have offered them at the inception a continuous and lengthy career with hope of high reward. It is in the Army alone that a man is rushed into a blind alley, although he may be one of the most efficient men in the particular regiment in which he has served. The real reason for the dismissal of these men from the Army at the end of three or seven years' service is that the War Office is always in fear of asking the House of Commons or money. If you were prepared to find money for pensions, if you were prepared to pay a man for increasing his years of service, if you were prepared to pay higher remuneration to the officers, so that the poor man could have a career, there is not the slightest doubt about it that men would stay in the Army longer than they do, and that the force would be much more efficient. The War Office is the last authority that should hesitate to ask the House of Commons for a Grant of money for this purpose. After all said and done, these are the men on whom we all "sponge" when it comes to the real defence of this country. Most of us in this House will never fight on any field of battle, but I think all would vote for dealing liberally with soldiers—officers and rankers alike—who are prepared to shoulder the burden of the defence of this country. I hold that the War Office has no business to assume that the House of Commons would refuse to grant money necessary to make an army career for the ranker and for the officer as well. At the moment the broken soldier is one of the saddest sights in England. In every poor house you will find some old fellow who has done his duty in this way. He may not have been a saint—probably he would have been a bad soldier if he had been a saint. [An HON. MEMBER: "Stonewall Jackson."] Of course, we have had saints in the Army, but much depends on what we mean by the word "saint." I am speaking of soldiers as soldiers, and not as saints. It is extraordinary to me that the people of this country show so much indifference towards these broken soldiers. It is very sad to think you cannot go to any workhouse in the country without finding that a considerable percentage of the casuals dependent on charity are men who have actually risked their lives and possibly sacrificed their health in order to defend millions upon millions of apathetic citizens, who enjoy prosperity and peace because of the work done by these old soldiers. I make this plea for the old soldiers—I make a plea also for the young soldier, so that we may prevent his coming to such a humiliating end. What we do for the police we can afford to do, and we ought, in fairness, to do for the soldier. The naval man is treated much more handsomely, though not too well, and what we do for him we ought also to do for the soldier. The Army has always been the Cinderella of the forces, and why it should have been so I could never understand. So much for the rank and file.
Let me now deal with the officers' class. The shortage of officers is a more serious matter than the shortage of men. A man may be trained, if he has a good physique—and I am quoting now one of the best authorities—and may become an efficient Infantry soldier in four months, and a fair Cavalryman in six months. But no officer can be trained in a less period, even if he has a natural gift and instinct of command, to take charge of any body of men. What is the position with reference to the officer? No man can become an officer in the British Army—of course, there are some exceptions, but they are very few; they do not amount to more than 1 per cent.—unless he has some private income, and unless he has a certain social status. If he is a married man, he cannot do so unless his wife has some social status. Anybody who knows anything about the Army knows that whilst the colonel commands the regiment, the colonel's wife commands the colonel, and nothing is more serious in the administration of our battalions nowadays than the influence, the almost sinister influence—the feminine influence. No man can now, unless he has a certain social status, and unless his wife enjoys an equal social status, become an officer in the British Army; and, on the top of that, you have this system of secret reports which many believe in and for which there is, no doubt, much to be said, but which, at any rate, has a deterrent effect on a young man, or on the father of a young man, when considering the question of a future career. As it stands now, you narrow the area of selection for possible officers, and then you complain that officers are not forthcoming. My suggestion to the House is a concrete proposal, which I make with all deference to men older and wiser in military affairs than I can possibly be. You have to break down this social status of the officer, and you must throw the position open in the same way as you throw open law, medicine, and engineering. We have in the House to-day a Prime Minister and a Leader of the Opposition whose capacity no man doubts, but neither could have become an officer in any English regiment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] I need not go into details. I simply make that submission. I am touching now the most "touchy" part of the British Army system. I am not saying a word against the officers as a class. I consider that they are doing their duty and have always done so, and I may say further that the land-lord class, which is sometimes condemned in round terms, has, in England's past, provided a larger percentage of the officers of the British Army than any other class. In the past the system may have served well, but at the present moment you must open up your regiments so as to make a career for the humblest boy or man without consideration of his income or his social status, and unless you do that you will never get an adequate supply of officers. I admit it is a difficult thing to do, because an officers' mess nowadays is a happy family, and it is extremely difficult to admit into it any man not of equal social status—unless, indeed, it be one of distinguished ability—without upsetting the comfort and, indeed, interfering with the efficiency of the officers of the regiment. Unless you make the career of the officer as open and as hopeful of great reward as the career of a lawyer, a doctor, or an engineer, you can never expect to get an adequate number of officers, and you will never get the best brains in England for the Army of England unless you are prepared to draw from all classes of her men. In Australia, where they have taken this military question with a seriousness I regret that this country does not attach to it, they have wiped out the social status idea in connection with officers. Their officers are appointed from all the youth of the Commonwealth, according to examinations. I had the pleasure recently, with many of my hon. Friends and colleagues, of attending their military college, and of discussing this question with an English officer, who is one of the instructors, and who was greatly impressed with, the capacity of the sons of working men qualifying to become officers. He told me that two of the boys were, respectively, the son of a shoemaker and the son of a policeman. I ask anyone in the House if the son of a shoemaker or the son of a policeman would be able to enter Sandhurst to-day. Of course not. Why should we shut our eyes to the fact that until we open the Army and make it a career, we are restricting it to men who are excellent men in themselves, and first-class soldiers, and keeping it to a narrow area. I believe in the Commonwealth system of recruiting officers. I do not believe in the present system here, because I think it does not supply all the officers we want, nor necessarily the most efficient ones.
With the references which the hon. Member has just made to the unfortunate fate which sometimes overtakes soldiers after they have passed the ranks, I think we are all in complete agreement. I think we are completely in agreement with those sympathetic suggestions which he made, that after a man has served his country some better provision, if possible, ought to be made by the State to find him employment in after life. With regard to the Service, we are face to face with the difficulty that the longer the service is extended the greater becomes the problem of having that large Reserve which is part of our military system. I am not going to deal with the remarks the hon. Member made with reference to the officers. He was sympathetic, but I am inclined to think that some of his observations were made without, perhaps, very close knowledge of the conditions which actually prevail. In the Army, if any young officer joins a regiment, there is no place where he will get a warmer welcome, from whatever class in society he comes, than he will receive when he joins the officers' mess. The hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. Baird) was perfectly correct in his observations, that the decline in our military force has become a chronic state of affairs in this country. It has been going on for years, and an examination of the figures shows us that, apart from the numbers of the Territorial Army, to which I shall allude later, and taking the Regulars and the Special Reserve or the Militia, as the case may be, between the 1st January, 1907—and I select that date in order to be perfectly fair, because if an earlier date had been taken the comparison would have been even more striking—and the 1st January, 1914, exclusive of the Territorials and exclusive of the Reserves, there has been a reduction in the forces of no less than 48,000 men. With regard to the Territorial Force, the position is even more unsatisfactory. Taking only the last few years, I find that in 1912 the Territorial Force was 40,000 men short; in 1913 it had gone up to 50,000 men short, and to-day the right hon. Gentleman has told us the force is now 56,000 men below its establishment. The right hon. Gentleman in his speech yesterday went on to say that we must expect a considerable drop in the near future unless extra efforts are made. I could not help being reminded of the remark made by the Prime Minister only a week or so ago, when he took up a different attitude and was quite optimistic as to raising the force to full establishment "within a reasonable time."
This remark of the Prime Minister was addressed to a deputation of the National Service League, which waited upon him a week or so ago; and it seems to me to show that there is some considerable difference of opinion between the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for War. Taking the Home Defence Army as a whole, we find that there is a shortage which cannot but be regarded as extremely serious. The Regular Army has a shortage of 13,000 men below establishment; the Special Reserve of some 14,000 men, and the Territorial Force of 56,000 men below its establishment, making a shortage, on the whole, of our Home defence of some 83,000 men in all. Mark you, that is in spite of the fact that the establishment of the Special Reserve has been reduced since 1913 by nearly 10,000 men. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman finds it a convenient method of dealing with the difficulty. Instead of bringing your numbers up to the level of your establishment, it is of course much simpler to adjust your establishment to correspond, as far as may be, to the numbers of the men. It is the same system which the right hon. Gentleman pursued with such conspicuous success with regard to the Territorial Force last year, when, in order to meet the reduction in number, he equalised matters by depriving the invading force of their horses and guns. And, in view of the further reduction in the numbers of the Territorial Force during this year, some extension of that same excellent principle will have to be considered, and I would throw out the suggestion to him that if he can now persuade the invading army to leave their rifles behind, the difficulty would be settled once and for all.
In view of the serious and growing shortage of the Territorial Force, in view of the fact that the Home Defence Army as a whole is 83,000 men below its establishment, I think we are entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us some definite information as to what the position of the country would be if it became necessary to dispatch the Expeditionary Force from these islands. The right hon. Gentleman said, in the course of his speech yesterday, that owing to the speeding-up of the mobilisation arrangements, the Expeditionary Force could leave at very short notice. But what would be the state of our defence when it had actually gone? First of all, we must remember that it would be necessary—and the necessity would arise at once—to send out drafts to replace the wastage of war, and that, in itself, would be a very serious matter, for it is definitely laid down in the Regulations of the establishment of the Expeditionary Force that drafts are to be officially estimated at the rate of 70 per cent. per annum of the whole force. The right hon. Gentleman, at the beginning of his speech yesterday, gave us some hope that he was going to examine this important question. He said:— But, although I have carefully examined what the right hon. Gentleman actually said, because that seems to be the most vital question upon which the whole defence of this country turns after the dispatch of the Expeditionary Force, he does not appear to have referred to the matter again, and did not fulfil his pledge at all. He took care to mention nothing whatever about it in the course of his remarks yesterday, and I hope he will take an early opportunity of dealing "later on," as he says, with the matter of the Expeditionary Force. It must be within the recollection of hon. Members that last year the late Mr. Wyndham made a speech which produced a deep impression upon this House, and, indeed, upon the country at large. He dealt with the whole matter, and he showed us quite conclusively and in detail—and there was no serious attempt either to disprove or to deny his figures—that even a short time after the Expeditionary Force had left these shores, after calculating the necessary drafts to replace the wastage of war, we shall find ourselves practically denuded of trained and mature troops, and almost entirely dependent for our safety upon the Territorial Force. I do not think that position is disputed. Indeed, that is the situation. I notice that the Prime Minister, on the same occasion to which I have already alluded, used these words:—
It may be a convenience to the House if I intervene at this stage, in order to make some reply to the speeches which have been made from both sides of the House in support of the Amendment. Everybody, in whatever part of the House he may sit, listened to the speech of the hon. Member who moved it with pleasure and with interest. It was wholly devoid of overstatement, or of any kind of party spirit. It was the kind of speech which everyone must welcome who has the welfare of the Army at heart. But though I can do nothing but respectfully applaud the manner of the hon. Member's speech, nevertheless he does not seem to me to have avoided falling into the usual dilemma into which most people are bound to fall when they proceed to criticise our present Army system. The reason they impale themselves upon the horns of the dilemma, is that they do not ever seem to apprehend what our Army really is composed of. In a leading article in the "Times" newspaper the criticism was made that nothing that I said yesterday was new. That interested me greatly, because I have heard from many of those who listened to my speech yesterday that they never knew before really of what the British Army was composed, and I make this criticism of the hon. Member and his excellent speech, that he does not seem to have remembered of what the British Army is composed. Although I am loth to labour the point, I must again point out what it is composed of. It is quite different from any other Army in the world, because it is composed of two halves approximately, the men abroad, who are of the same age, approximately from twenty to twenty-seven, who are ready mobilised and therefore much more ready than any other Army, and the almost equal number of men at home—at present there are 121,000 at home, and 117,000 abroad—who are younger, but who also have a larger number of Reservists added to them than in the case of foreign armies, making their average age older than that of the foreign armies, the result of the whole system being this extraordinary ingenious Card-well system which has been criticised to-day by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Sir R. Pole-Carew) in a speech with parts of which we must all agree with regard to the hardships imposed upon the men by the system—the result of this system is that we have, for the purpose for which we require them, a larger Army on mobilisation for the money which we spend—of this I am persuaded—than under any other scheme you could possibly devise. Observe what we get for it! This Amendment says that this House regrets the serious shortage of the military forces of the Crown and invites His Majesty's Government to state forthwith its concrete proposals for dealing with the situation. What is our answer to it? The first answer is, that as for shortage on mobilisation, there is not any. There is a surplus, and that is a very good answer, and, indeed, a conclusive one, except it be said, as was said by the Mover of the Amendment, that apart from the question of whether we are below establishment or not, the actual, forces we have under our present system, are not really adequate to our needs.
Let me deal with the supposed shortage of the Regular Army. Our net shortage is, in round numbers, 8,000. We have a surplus abroad, in India alone, of more than 3,000. We have a net shortage of 8,000 with the Colours owing to various causes, notably a change on the terms of enlistment, introduced at the close of the last Government, which has caused great fluctuations in the men with the Colours and in the Reserve; the numbers with the Reserve are, my experts tell me, about 13,000 above the normal. Therefore, suppose the Army mobilised to-morrow, we should have not less men, but more men, than is the normal number under our present system. The drawback of the present position would be that we should have a greater proportion of Reservists with our Home battalions. This does not apply to the 117,000 men abroad, who are not affected one way or the other, but in the case of the Home battalions we should have a greater proportion of Reservists. The hon. Member (Mr. Baird) complains of the youth of the men, but does he not see that the very fact that we have in our Home Army—an Army of which so large a proportion of Reservists are to be found—that the average age of our Army is greater than in foreign countries. I am surprised that the hon. and gallant Gentleman should not take the point, because he is a believer in long service. He thinks a soldier who has been trained for seven years is manifestly superior to a soldier trained for two or three, and a soldier trained for fifteen years is better than a soldier who has been trained for seven.
I did not say that.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that we let a soldier go away when he is just his best at the job.
I can assure the right hon. Gentleman I said nothing of the sort. The hon. Member behind you said that. My point was that you should give them a chance of pension and employment after they left the Army. I agree that to get a Reserve short service is necessary—not too short.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman does not demur to my statement. He believes that soldiers with long service are better than soldiers with short service, and, other things being equal, the longer you train them the better they are. Our Army, when mobilised, is not only older on the average, but it has much longer training than any Army on the Continent. This is one of the many points that no one seems to apprehend when indulging in the usual jeremiads about the British Army being hopelessly inadequate for its task—jeremiads which are not inspired by any real belief in the inadequacy of the Army—but only because of our national characteristic that when we are quite sure a thing is good, we are determined not to let anyone know we think so. If hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite thought a fifth part of what they say against the Army in Army Debates they would be much too patriotic ever to open their mouths. The Army at home mobilised ought to be, unless Englishmen are manifestly inferior in all military, qualities to all foreigners, much superior as a fighting machine to any other of the same size, for, first of all, it has had a much longer training.
No, not in the ranks. Surely it is a different thing if you have men trained in the ranks from taking men who have been in the Reserve for perhaps a lengthened period and suddenly put them into the ranks under officers and non-commissioned officers they have never seen.
It is very fortunate that we should have this out, because I now see that there are hon. Gentlemen opposite who really believe that our Army at home, when mobilised, is inferior to an equal number of men of foreign Armies. They are wrong.
At first.
I really believe they are wrong, not because I have a patriotic belief in my own countrymen, but simply from a survey of the case which I have been obliged to make during the many years I have been responsible for the great Department of the War Office. The British Army, when mobilised, has men who have been trained for much longer than the Armies of any foreign Powers. Our term of service on the average is over seven years. The term of service in foreign countries varies from two to four, the average period being, I believe, a little over two. If there be anything in the theory which hon. Members have persistently advanced, that length of training increases a soldier's qualities, that long training of seven years must give our soldiers an advantage over the two and a quarter years of foreign countries, and if the hon. and gallant Gentleman says, "What is the good of that, because you have to bring men from the Reserve who have left the Colours," does he suppose that any Army mobilises without men from the Reserve? On the contrary, having got this enormous advantage at the start of the seven years instead of two, we now have to deal with the question of the number of Reservists. If you take the British Army as a whole, our proportion of Reservists is much less than that of any foreign Power, because half of it requires no Reservists to fill up, whereas the other half, the Army at home, has to fill up with Reservists. But if you take the Home Army only, you will find that the number of Reservists which we require in order to fill up our ranks is only a comparatively small percentage greater than that of the great Armies of France and Germany. As compared with the Army of Bulgaria, our proportion is considerably smaller, but when you consider what these Reservists are—every one of them men who have had seven years' training, most of them in all parts of the world, with more opportunties of active service than another Army in the world, so far as I know—I say that the material of our Reservists is incomparably superior to that of any Army in the world. I submit with full confidence, setting aside altogether the relative fighting qualities of Englishmen and foreigners—that is a matter on which different views may be held, but suppose that they are absolutely equal—that viewed from any available standpoint our British Army is a more efficient and a more formidable fighting machine than any Continental force of the same size. I have given my reasons for saying so, because to-day, for the first time, we have had it nakedly stated by some hon. Gentlemen opposite that that view is not a just; view. I see that the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Mr. Baird) has returned to his place, and he will allow me to repeat what I have said, that his speech was devoid entirely of any trace of party spirit. I was endeavouring to show that the hon. Gentleman was in a dilemma in complaining that our Army is too young, because it appeared to me that part of his case was that it must be on the average too old.
I come now to the question whether the age of nineteen or twenty is really too young. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent (Mr. J. Ward) said that he took part in a campaign when he was nineteen. It does not seem to have done him any harm. Indeed, I think we will all agree in that, and, having had the opportunity of seeing his boys, I would say that they would make very formidable soldiers at their present age, and I only hope that he will give them a chance. It is a nice point when a soldier is at his best. My medical advisers in the Army are disposed to think that we put our age now too high, and certainly many of the best judges to whom I am bound to appeal are doubtful whether we are not unwise in saying that a soldier should not take part in a campaign until he is twenty. Many think that nineteen is quite old enough, and if you are to go simply on medical standards as to the precise amount of resistance there is in the organs of the body, both to disease and to fatigue, I am told—it is a complicated medical subject—that there is a good deal to be said for a lad of nineteen as against a lad of any other age. We take care to see that the rules are not broken, and I do not think we have an appreciable number abroad who are under twenty years of age. But I have been urged by my medical advisers—not, I grant, on principle; that is not their business—to consider whether it would not be wise in the interests of the Army to allow the age to be reduced to nineteen. [An HON. MEMBER: "Is that abroad?"] Yes, abroad.
made a remark which could not be heard in the Reporters' Gallery.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman ought not to say things of that kind. It is on a par with the very unworthy statement with regard to the First Sea Lord, in which he said that he had gone back an his word—a statement which should never be made by one gentleman of another, or by one officer of another. I refer to that because the House is now fuller, and what is said may be read to-morrow. I do not think that we should be right in saying that our Army is too young. We have a considerable number of immature youths, but we have so large a Reserve that we are able to dispense with them on mobilisation. The hon. Member for Rugby doubted whether 162,000 men of the Expeditionary Force would really be there on the day. I can assure him there is no doubt about it. There are 121,000 men at home and 146,000 in the Reserve, which makes a total of 267,000 men. You must eliminate the unfit, the untrained, and those too young, but without drawing, except to a very small extent for special ratings, on the Special Reserve, out of that large number I know we can be certain that the whole force of 162,000 would be available if we went to war to-morrow.
There is no doubt about them being available, but what I asked the right hon. Gentleman was whether the rest of the defences of the country would be in a position to send them abroad, if necessary, within a fortnight.
That is the second point, which I am coming to now. If there is no dispute in the mind of anyone that this force of 162,000 as the Expeditionary Force would be available if we went to war to-morrow, in addition to the great force of 117,000 we maintain overseas, we can now proceed to inquire what this great force is for. I was asked by my hon. Friend behind me if the War Office had made any careful consideration of the plans which would be necessary to defend our great Empire. I reply to him, "Yes, constant, care is taken in thinking out every possible menace we may have to face." Then he asked me whether I am going to say what I am going to do with the Army when we go to war, to which I frankly answer him, "Certainly not." He says that the democracies of foreign countries have been given this information. I say that no democracy of any nation except this has ever asked for it, because they know perfectly well that the whole value of any military force is instantly minimised if it is stated where the Army is to go and what it is to do. To make any such answer would obviously be unwise. What the House of Commons has a right to know is, "Is your Army ready to go anywhere and do anything?" The House of Commons has the right to ask the Foreign Secretary, "What is your foreign policy?" and the Prime Minister, "What is the general trend of your policy at home and abroad?" but to ask regarding the forces which any country has at the moment—and I am speaking as if we were abroad—which will you put on the Eastern frontier and how many, which on the Western frontier, which will you retain to protect yourselves from a blow at the heart, how many do you send into the defending ports?—imagine such questions being asked in a foreign country! The man who asked them would be regarded as a fool unless it was regarded as a bad joke. It would be most unwise and most wrong for me to give any indication of any sort or kind of what is to be done with the six divisions of the Expeditionary Force in the event of war. And in the event of what war? I can think of five different dangerous wars for the British Empire—five positions in which she might find herself, and which she would have to take by sea and land. What would be the good of attempting to lay down by broad rule of thumb what is to be done with the Expeditionary Force? The real question is, "Is the Expeditionary Force ready to go on expedition?" and to that I answer, it is absolutely ready to go on expedition, and I am persuaded that, wherever it goes, it will fight well.
Will the whole of it be permitted to go?
That is one of the questions which I say it would be most foolish for any Minister to lay down a precise rule about.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman say last Session that it would?
Oh, no. The question is: Is it ready to go?—I mean at the time of mobilisation. Beyond that I absolutely refuse to go, and I think the House will support me in refusing. I have said I am confident that the Expeditionary Force is ready to go; but I do not think the House yesterday sufficiently appreciated the very generous tribute to the present advisers of His Majesty, both military and civil, in the speech of the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Lee), and I wish now publicly to acknowledge what he said. I think it was a most generous thing to say, and I am convinced it was wholly true. He said:—
"The War Office boasts, and boasts with good justice, I think, that as a result of their policy during the last few years the mobilisation of the Expeditionary Force, its equipment in all essentials, has been enormously improved, and has been keyed up to a point where I believe the right hon. Gentleman is justified in saying, that theoretically the whole of it might be dispatched almost at a moment's notice. I should be the last to deny that an enormous improvement in that respect has been effected."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th March, 1914, col. 1112.]
When he said theoretically, I took him to mean that he was coming to the point whether in point of fact the Government of the day would let it go, and not to the question whether it was actually ready to go.
Yes, entirely.
7.0 P.M.
I believe what the hon. Gentleman opposite said is absolutely true, and I think it would be wrong of me not to pay a cordial acknowledgment to him for having thus so emphatically said this in praise of what has been done by his political opponents. We have worked very hard to make that portion of the Army at Home—which was called by Lord Wolseley a squeezed lemon—instead of a haphazard collection of units, into a formidable Expeditionary Force. That means a great change in our military power. That change has now been achieved. The numbers, as I ventured to point out, if you take those in the Reserves and the Colours, are substantially the same as in previous years, and rather more than the normal of last year. Our military power, I am persuaded, has increased. Viewed, therefore, as a whole, I believe, from the military point of view, quite apart from the dangers that menace us from outside, and the relative position in which we stand, this country has greatly increased its strength in recent years. I am not going into the question now as to how far other nations have increased their strength, or how far diplomatic relations make the position better or worse. That would not be suitable for this Debate, and least of all for this particular Amendment, which is to call attention to the shortage in number; but I do with some confidence ask the House to reject this Amendment, not on any party grounds—I take the view of the hon. Gentlemen opposite on that point—but simply because so far as the ground is concerned round about which this Debate has centred, I think we may claim that we are stronger than in any period of our history. Before I sit down I may deal with another aspect of the question which was raised by the hon. Member for Bodmin, my hon. Friend behind me, and also by the hon. Member for Stoke. They all pleaded in effect for the abolition, of the Cardwell system. I do not wonder. At first sight it is a most attractive proposition that we should go back to the long-service system.
I never asked to go back to the long-service system.
Also the hon. and gallant Gentleman said that it was a pity that men should not be allowed to serve on.
I did not say that—it was the hon. Member behind me.
It does not affect the argument. I understood that the hon. and gallant Gentleman was in favour of a longer term of service. If not, I have nothing more to say about it. But my hon. Friend here and the hon. Gentleman opposite are frankly in favour of a system of longer service. I think that several Gentlemen opposite are in favour of a longer term of service than seven years. I have not been listening to Debates in this House without learning that. I was strongly of that opinion myself when I first became a Member of this House. No doubt if we made our whole Army enlist on the same terms as the Marines, it would solve a great many difficulties, and, above all, it would solve the difficulty to which hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway often call attention, that of the "blind-alley" nature of soldiers' employment. We should not be forced into the unfortunate position that while for the safety of the State you must call upon as many men as you possibly can to come and join your Army, yet at the time when men who are at any other employment are getting the best of their job you turn them out. Of course, the answer is that a soldier's profession is one where youth is an enormous advantage. The present Chief of the General Staff has a strong view on the merits of quite young soldiers—I do not refer to boys; I mean really strong young soldiers—as compared with veterans of forty or fifty. You cannot, if you are to have an Army of any size in this country, go back to the long-service system unless you greatly increase the cost—how greatly it is very hard to say, but the increase would be many millions—in order to provide a force at all comparable with the force which we now have, namely, the 117,000 men abroad, the mobilisation force of 162,000 men at home, together with all our garrisons for our defended ports at home thereto added. To do that on the long-service basis, on what I might call the Marine terms of enlistment, would involve millions of increase in our Estimates. I do not think that the country would ever face so great a cost, and therefore what it would mean is a great decrease in our mobilisation strength. I do not think that the country is prepared to face that. It would be a very strong thing to do now, to reduce our striking power for oversea purposes to perhaps half what it is to-day; but that you will have to do if you attempt a long-service system for the same cost.
We have an immense Empire, and though, as my hon. Friend truly said, we are not principally responsible for the defence of our great Dominions, though we would gladly spend our last man for their support if required, it is not going too far to say that this Expeditionary Force of 162,000 is not too big a force to be found in the heart of the Empire here, in view of its great responsibilities oversea. I put this question then to my hon. Friends who think that it would be a good thing to go back to the long-service system: Have they fully realised that they have got to do one of two things, either to increase the cost of the Army by many, many millions, or reduce our striking force to about half what it is to-day? One of these two things must follow from that. But I admit that the Cardwell system is on its trial, just because it does bear so hardly upon the men who join the Army and who do not get after employment. It is for that reason that I dwelt at some length upon this point yesterday. That we may find some solution of it I am hopeful, but that we are bound not to rest until we do, I am sure. I think that I have dwelt upon the different points raised in the course of this Debate, and I hope now that we may perhaps be permitted to come to a decision upon this matter in order that the general discussion may be resumed, on which there is much which must necessarily be said from this Bench in reply to the criticisms made by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. But I say, in conclusion, that I do not believe that any case has been made out for regretting the shortage of our Regular Army. I believe that our military strength as regards our Regular Forces is greater now probably than it has ever been, and I hope and believe that the House will support us in taking that view.
May I be permitted one word of personal explanation?
If it is a personal explanation.
The right hon. Gentleman gave me to understand, at any rate, that he considers I behaved in a manner unfitting a gentleman. That is what I understood him to say. I think that it will be within the recollection of the House, or of those who were here at the time, that what I said I explained at the moment, and to that explanation I beg to adhere. I have only to say that, in my humble opinion, the right hon. Gentleman is not a very good judge of a gentleman.
The remarks of the hon. and gallant Gentleman are utterly irrelevant to a personal explanation. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has no right to rise and say that he wishes to make a personal explanation, and under cover of that to fire a dart at the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War.
On this point, if I may be permitted to say so, I did resent, on behalf of an absent officer, the statement made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman that that distinguished officer had gone back on his word. Those are the words which I understood him to use. If he did not mean to say that that officer had gone back on his word, I am only sorry that I took him up so sharply, but if he did, I could not do otherwise than repel indignantly what seemed to me so wilful an accusation. The words may have been said in the heat of the moment, and if the hon. and gallant Gentleman has any explanation to the effect that he did not mean the words in the sense in which I understood then I should be very glad to say that I am sorry if I took him abruptly.
I explained them at the time, and the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well what I said.
If the right hon. Gentleman had throughout his speech adopted the same tone that he adopted in the latter part of it, I think that his remarks would have made a more favourable impression on the House as a whole, but throughout the earlier part of his speech he adopted a highly controversial and even acrimonious tone, which I think came ill from one who is never tired of reading sermons to us as to the undesirability of importing anything like a party spirit into our Army Debates. I agree entirely with him that it is most undesirable, but when he goes so far as to make the statement which I could only characterise as very offensive, that if we believed in the criticisms which we had made in the course of this and previous Debates—implying thereby that we did not believe in them—we would be too patriotic to open our mouths. I say that in itself is a very offensive suggestion to make. We do believe entirely in the criticisms which we make. The right hon. Gentleman seems to think that if we do not approve whole-heartedly of everything that he is doing and everything that exists with regard to the present state of the Army, we must be unpatriotic people, who ought to be muzzled if we do not keep our mouths shut. The criticisms which have been advanced by my hon. Friend this afternoon have been in every respect fair criticisms. I am quite certain that they believed every word they said, and where they saw defects in our military system they felt it their duty to point them out. The right hon. Gentleman, on a previous occasion, used the same remark about myself—that I did not believe in my criticisms, because if I did, I would be too patriotic to use it. It is our duty to call attention to all the defects which we see in our military system, and the more real we believe them to be the more incumbent it is on us to get up here and call attention to them. The right hon. Gentleman began his speech by saying that my hon. Friend who moved this Resolution was impaled on the horns of a dilemma, and then he forgot to tell us what the dilemma was.
Both too old and too young.
That is a comparatively small dilemma. The right hon. Gentleman and his Government are upon the horns of a much greater dilemma, and one upon which they have refused us all information. We say in this Resolution that the numbers of our military forces are not sufficient, and we say that they are not sufficient, because if the Expeditionary Force, which, I presume, is intended to go on expeditions, and which has been equipped, as the right hon. Gentleman reminded me just now, that I had admitted in the course of Debate yesterday, solely for the purpose of going on expeditions, cannot go because we have not sufficient troops at home, because our military strength at home is not sufficient, then it is the Government which has placed itself and placed the country upon the horns of a formidable dilemma. When we challenged the right hon. Gentleman again to-day as to whether or not this Expeditionary Force, for which he is responsible, will or will not be allowed to leave at a moment's notice, if necessary, he gets up and says that he declines to answer, and that it would be most unwise for any Minister to make a statement on that point, absolutely regardless of the fact that he did not hesitate for a moment to make the statement again and again in the course of the Army Debates last Session. When I said that across the floor of the House he denied it, therefore I feel bound to refer him to a Debate contained in this very compendious volume he has been kind enough to send me for my convenience, and I hope it will not inconvenience him if I use it on this occasion.
I have another copy.
If the right hon. Gentleman will look at columns 69 and 70 he will find that my right hon. Friend the late Mr. Wyndham challenged him specifically on this point last Session, and after several pointed queries, and after, if I may say so without offence, several wrigglings on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to avoid answering it, we find, according to column 70, that he did answer it. The Report reads:—
"Mr. Wyndham: As we now understand, if next week it became desirable from a strategical point of view to dispatch six Divisions, a Cavalry Division, and the necessary complement of guns, the Government would not hesitate to do so whatever the state of the Reserves for maintaining the force and the Territorial force, and whatever was the naval problem with which they were confronted. But the right hon. Gentleman now dissents.
Colonel Seely: Oh, no.
Mr. Wyndham: Then he assents."
The right hon. Gentleman made no objection to that. It was boasted in another place by Lord Haldane that the whole of the Expeditionary Force would be able to go at a moment's notice. That was only last year. We now ask the right hon. Gentleman the same question. He says that no Minister should make a statement of that kind in this House. Does not that confirm us in the fears we expressed yesterday that there has been a change of policy in this matter on the part of the Government during the last twelve months, and that the reason the right hon. Gentleman has these sudden compunctions about making a statement this year, which he had no compunction in making last year, is that the Government's policy has changed, and that they are not able to send the Expeditionary Force which they had keyed up for that one purpose? That fact has such grave consequences in connection with our world position and possible obligations and commitments in various parts of the world that, although it is impossible to deal with it adequately on this occasion, I say it is one of the most serious faults—the right hon. Gentleman does not deny it is a fact—
What?
That the whole of the Expeditionary Force cannot any longer be allowed to leave at a moment's notice.
Indeed, the hon. Gentleman must make no such assumption.
Then may I ask him a plain question, would they be allowed to go?
To which I answer, I shall certainly make no reply.
That is quite sufficient. I do not think we need any more explicit acknowledgment of the truth of my suggestion than that. Now I come to what is certainly a less important point, namely, the right hon. Gentleman's argument with regard to the age of the Army. He produced the very ingenious argument that, because that portion of our Army which is permanently stationed abroad requires no Reservists for mobilisation, and that that portion of our Regular Army stationed at home does require a very large proportion of Reservists, putting the two together the average number of Reservists required for the whole Army was less than that of Continental Powers. Does he put that forward as a serious argument? Does he not realise that the Army which is abroad has to remain abroad for garrisoning stations? It is not going to fight alongside the Expeditionary Force, which is mobilised at home. It will be fully occupied in its own stations, and hardly a man will be able to be moved from a place like India or any of our Colonial garrisons. That really is no answer at all to our case. We say that under our present system of mobilisation of the Army at home the proportion of Reservists is, in the first place, far too high for a campaign which might require that that force should not only be mobilised, but should actually be in the fighting line within two or three weeks. We say it is too high, because a very large proportion of the units would be composed of men who have been away for a very long time from the Colours. The right hon. Gentleman speaks of the Reservist as being necessarily a trained man. He is a trained man when he leaves the Colours, but the right hon. Gentleman knows, and none knows better, that every year that passes he becomes less and less efficient for the purposes of war, because of the length of time he has been away, and because he gets out of touch, not only with his officers and non-commissioned officers, but out of touch with the actual training, the methods of warfare, and even with the weapon, and, whilst our Reservists who have only left the Colours for two or three years are probably superior to the Reservists of any Army in the world—I am willing to grant that—our Reservists who have been away four, five, six, or seven years have enormously diminished in military value for the purposes of immediate warfare, not only on account of their age, but on account of the time they have been away from the Colours and in civil employment.
We further say that this system under which you make up your force by associating with young men of eighteen or nineteen years of age—men who under the present War Office Regulations, are not permitted to go abroad because their stamina is not considered sufficient—those men who are mostly over thirty and many much older, this linking of youth and age, while it may produce a high paper average, does not make for military efficiency, nor is it comparable with the Continental system where the Reservists have been away only a short time, and where you get the average of men to a general uniform level, not only in age but in training, without which the units cannot be thoroughly efficient. My hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Sir Charles Hunter), in seconding this Amendment, made very clearly the point that the weakness in connection with the Expeditionary Force or our Home Army on mobilisation, is that it consists of an undue proportion of Reservists, because in military affairs, as in nearly all others, the pace will be the pace of the slowest. What we have to consider in this matter is not merely fighting capacity, but what is quite as and even more important than that, namely, marching capacity. Everyone knows that if you take the Aldershot Division, they have been trained all through the winter and summer doing progressive marches, and by the time they arrive at the manœuvre period those men are hard as nails and can march against any troops in the world. But those very battalions are only 300 or 400 or 500 strong, and if they went to war, instead of manœuvres, you would have to fill them up largely with these old men who have been away a long time from the Colours. If they were going to fight on the Continent of Europe, they would have to march at once, and probably fight within three weeks. What would be the effect upon the marching capacity of those units?
We are not belittling the British Army or the Reservists, but you would take men from sedentary occupations when they were perfectly soft, put them in one of these regiments, half of which is composed of young, hard men, and expect them to march and keep up with them. It is absolutely impossible. That is one of the great weaknesses of our present system. I wish the right hon. Gentleman would try an experiment with regard to this very point at future manœuvres, or even this year. His colleague at the Admiralty is trying an experiement analogous to it this year in the mobilisation of the Third Fleet. He is going to bring the men back from civil life to see how they can take their places in the War Fleet. There the element of marching does not come in. If the right hon. Gentleman in his next manœuvres would try an analogous experiment, put forward some kind of bounty—he cannot do it compulsorily without a Proclamation—call back to the Colours as many Reservists as he can get for the purposes of the grand manœuvres, put them into these regiments, see how they are going to march and see how they take their places in the ranks, and how in actual fighting they fulfil their part under fire discipline and matters of that kind, he will learn not only a very instructive and, I believe, an almost vital lesson with regard to the possible value of our Expeditionary Force in time of war, but he will in addition give to the staff—not only the directing staff, but the supply staff—a practical and valuable lesson which they cannot possibly get under existing conditions.
I shall no doubt have an opportunity of replying on that subject at another time. I wish I could have done it this year. The suggestion was made to me by the hon. Gentleman privately. I wish we could have done it, but the legal difficulties are very great, and the cost is enormous. We had decided to mobilise the Artillery of one Division this year. When I say that that small experiment will cost £11,000, the House will see that to adopt this experiment, valuable as it may be, quite apart from the legal difficulties, which are almost insuperable, would be almost too big a thing. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his suggestion.
I am glad something is to be done, but I venture to say that the right hon. Gentleman has chosen the arm of the Service which will teach him less than any other, because the Artillery will not have to march, and marching is the principal test. After all, what is £11,000?
£13,000.
What is £13,000? Does the right hon. Gentleman really suggest that if our criticism is well founded—it is not merely our criticism, but the criticism I have heard from many Infantry officers of every grade—that the efficiency of the Expeditionary Force would be very doubtful on account of this great influx of older and soft men—does he mean to say that to expend £13,000 or £30,000—
It would be much more than that.
It depends on the scale upon which the right hon. Gentleman does it. He can begin the lesson, if necessary, with only one battalion, or, at any rate, a brigade. He would learn the most important part of the lesson from them I do not think the sum which would be expended would be so great that it would not be well expended. There is one other point to which I desire to refer. The right hon. Gentleman quoted me, and said that on mobilisation the Expeditionary Force, the Home Army, whenever mobilised, would be complete in every particular. I asked him what about officers, and he said, "I am coming to that, and I will deal with it;" but he did not, as I am afraid happens very frequently with the right hon. Gentleman, on account of the fact that he has got into what I think the deplorable habit of speaking without notes, which results not only in the speeches becoming very much longer than they need be, but in the Minister forgetting very often to deal with important points, or sometimes the most important point of all. I wish he would go back to his earlier and happier habit. Yesterday we challenged the right hon. Gentleman on this point as to officers on mobilisation, and he told us to-day he would come to it, but he has not done so.
To-morrow.
I hope my hon. Friends will take note of that. I do not wish to have to speak to-morrow, but I hope some of them will see that the right hon. Gentleman carries out his promise with regard to that point. I have only one other remark to make, and that is with reference to something that fell from the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. J. Ward) in his very interesting speech. He said, very truly and fairly I thought, that if it was the policy of the Government in any circumstances to send our Expeditionary Force to take part in hostilities in Europe, then, of course, they have not enough men, though, he added, from his point of view and that of his Friends, they did not believe that that contingency ought ever to be allowed to arise. I think I am fairly stating his argument. He tried to put upon us the argument that we had said that the force might be used in Europe, even though our material interests were in no way affected. I do not think he was quite fair in saying that. After all, we may be very unwise, but we are not absolute lunatics. To suppose that we wish that our Army should be used in any portion of the world unless our interests are really affected is really absurd. Of course, we are only considering the case where our material interests would be very seriously affected, and although we may differ from the hon. Gentleman, I venture to say that even he would not regard with equanimity situations which have occurred in the history of the past, again and again, where a neighbouring friendly Power might be exposed to the risk of being beaten down, or when territories closely adjacent to our shores might be occupied by another nation which might use those territories and ports for operations against us. I say those are contingencies which we could not face with any equanimity. They are contingencies in which our material interests would be gravely affected, and I say, under those circumstances, and under those circumstances alone, if they should arise, of course it stands to reason that our Expeditionary Force and anything we had behind them, would have to be used in support of and in defence of our own material interests.
I should like to remind the House of yet another point with regard to which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War promised us in his speech this afternoon, as he did yesterday, to state something, but which he did not state. He began by saying to-day that he was going to tell us what the Army was for. When he came to the point he went through the solemn humbug of putting his hand to his heart and saying, "I am not going to give away the secrets of the General Staff and to tell my plans to Germany or any other Power." Nobody on this side or on the other side suggested that he should do that. What we have suggested is that he should only do what every other Power has done. The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly well aware that for months last year the French Parliament was discussing very seriously the problem of its Army organisation from the point of view of increasing the time of service from two to three years. Why? Because the German Army had been strengthened by a certain number of men. Every debate turned on the strength of the German Army, the numbers of German troops available on the French frontier, and on every other detail that affected the position. Nobody asks the right hon. Gentleman to go into plans and strategy, but what we do ask him to do is to review the broad problem of defence which faces this Empire, and the strength that may be brought against us at this point or that point, and, in particular, to tell the House if our Army system, as it exists at present, can supply the necessary numbers to deal with that problem. There is nothing unprecedented in that in this country. It is what we do with the Navy the whole time. Nobody asks the First Lord of the Admiralty to tell us the secret orders given to his admirals as to where the Fleets shall go, but we do discuss the Navy from beginning to end, from A to Z, in constant comparison with the strength of the enemy that it is likely to encounter.
It seems to me that the very beginning of any discussion of our military problem lies in dealing with the question of what we have got to defend, and what enemy we may have to encounter in one part or another. It is a most significant fact that, with the exception of the right hon. Gentleman, everybody who has joined in this Debate on both sides has laid stress on that point. To that point the right hon. Gentleman has made no answer. I do not presume to go into details from the point of view of a strategical expert, but, after all, there are certain very broad problems about which this House would like to be informed, and about which the right hon. Gentleman never gives us any information. He refers, as if he stated something very new, to the fact that we keep a permanently mobilised oversea force of 117,000 men. That is true; but we have done so for the last forty years. It is 3,000 men stronger in India than it was some years ago. I think, as a matter of fact, that it is now about the strength which was originally laid down by General Peel's Committee in 1869. Our forces in the Mediterranean are considerably weaker than they were. But let us look at the change in the situation. Is not the danger of trouble in India, by everyone's admission, far greater than ever it was? Is the Afghanistan of to-day, after long military preparation, comparable to the Afghanistan which gave us so much trouble in 1878 and 1879? Are the hill tribes, after successful gun-running, a greater or less danger than in 1897, when they called out the whole strength of the Indian Army? I do not wish to set up as a prophet, but I venture to say that trouble with Afghanistan and with the hill tribes alone, apart from any trouble such as with Russia, would not only occupy the whole of the troops in India, but also the whole of the Expeditionary Force available in this country.
Take, then, the question of Persia. The Foreign Secretary, I think wisely, has avoided committing us to military entanglement in Persia, and to extending our responsibilities. I hope he may continue to do so as long as possible, but no one can look at the trend of events in the East without knowing that sooner or later we are going to be faced with a considerable increase in military commitments in that quarter. More than that, what about the weakening of our naval strength in the Mediterranean, which should force us to consider whether we ought not to keep a greater, rather than a less, military strength east of the Suez Canal, whether in South Africa or in India? It also forces us to consider whether the garrisons, which are much smaller to-day than when we had a three-Power standard in the Mediterranean, are sufficient. On every one of these points this House expects, and deserves to have, some enlightenment. Take the problem of the Expeditionary Force itself. We have never been told why that force is to consist of six divisions rather than, say, of sixty divisions or two divisions. The only explanation we have ever had is the original explanation of Lord Haldane, who pointed out that it was the best way of organising such forces as were now in this country. What a scheme on which to build the defence of a great Empire! I venture to say, on a rough guess, that the Expeditionary Force is not large enough for dealing with the problem of India. I say—and here I differ from the hon. Member for Sunderland—that if Canada were at war with the might of the United States thrown against the seven or eight millions of Canada's population, we should be bound in honour to the Empire and to Canada to use every man we could send in the defence of Canada. There, again, I say, much and deeply as I would regret the possibility of such an occurrence, as long as we have a frontier with the United States, we have got to contemplate, at any rate, so organising our forces that we shall not be altogether helpless if war is forced upon us. In that case, again, I say the forces available on mobilisation are not large enough.
As to the position in Europe, there again it is not a question of our dealing single-handed with one of the great European Powers. We have been committed by our foreign policy to the support of a certain grouping of Powers, and it is our duty to supply not only naval strength but military strength to prevent that grouping being broken down. What good would it be to us winning a victory at sea if our allies were crushed and defeated on land? After all, we do not go in for a thing like that out of the mere desire to encourage militarism. This House has given the Foreign Secretary all credit for the loyalty with which he adhered to the Powers with which we are in friendly relations, and for the success which rewarded that loyalty in preserving the peace of Europe. We have so far managed to preserve the peace of Europe by our alliances and friendships, but if it becomes more clear day after day that our alliance and friendship are not worth having, then we shall be unable to play our share in preserving peace and defending our world interests. The discussion this afternoon has dealt not only with the failure of the right hon. Gentleman to tell us what the Army is for, and to show that the official scheme corresponds in any sense to our needs, but my hon. Friends have also pointed out that the official scheme itself is not being carried out and that there is a shortage on that scheme. The right hon. Gentleman airily denied that there was a shortage on mobilisation, and declared that there was a surplus. It is, of course, perfectly true that the right hon. Gentleman can mobilise somehow or other 162,000 men. Nobody has ever disputed that, but the point which we make is that he has allowed the Army in this country to be in such a condition that mobilisation will reveal the very gravest weaknesses and the gravest deficiencies. If the establishment of the units were stronger, as many of us have urged for the last three years, if the average age of the recruit were higher, if we recruited to our full establishment instead of being 13,000 short, we should not require such an immense number of Reservists in the ranks, and we should have a much more efficient Army.
The right hon. Gentleman trotted out a most preposterous idea, that you can reckon the efficiency of an Army by its average age. Would anybody take a man of seventy and his grandchild, and compare them with two effective adults? Is the exhaustion of the undeveloped boy of nineteen, after twenty miles of hard campaigning, made good by the blisters and perspiration of the fat Reservist in Section D, or by the rheumatic condition of the man who has left the Army for thirteen years? The right hon. Gentleman talks as if our Reservists had all had seven years' training and had recently left the ranks. He knows perfectly well that the large figure of the Reserves to-day is due to Lord Middleton's scheme under which an enormous number of men served for three years. These men in Section D have left the ranks for from nine to thirteen years, and have had no refresher course as Continental troops have. The whole system of our armament, training, and everything has changed in the last ten or twelve years. It is a ridiculous proposition. The right hon. Gentleman says that we run down our Army, and say that our own Army on mobilisation is not comparable with the Home Army on mobilisation of foreign countries. Take the Army of a country like Germany. On mobilisation you have in the ranks men of twenty-one and twenty-two. You bring back to the ranks men of twenty-three and twenty-four, who have left during the last two years, who come from the same villages, who are the brothers and cousins of the men actually in the ranks, who serve under the same officers who trained them, and stand side by side with those whom they left only a few months before. Our Reservists, even if they have come fairly recently from the ranks, have come from the other battalion in India, and they may not have met any of the officers or non-commissioned officers under whom they have to serve. At the time of the South African war it was found that the journey out to South Africa and the first few weeks there were none too long to bring Reservists into a condition to be incorporated with the rest of the unit. In the case of Section "D" the evidence given before Lord Elgin's Commission showed that, on the whole, the officers were by no means satisfied, I do not mean with the personal zeal of the men, but with the ease with which they could be incorporated into their units.
The right hon. Gentleman now tells us that his medical advisers are all urging him the way he wants to go in lowering standards. When he gets into a recruiting difficulty, his medical advisers, absolutely ignorant of recruiting difficulties, come to him, seize him by the lapel of his coat, and say, "Do send these boys of nineteen abroad, to India; they are so much stronger and more robust than the older men!" We know that in many cases they are only seventeen or eighteen. Like the hon. Member for Stoke, they pretend to be older than they are. The right hon. Gentleman's medical advisers also press him to lower the height and reduce the chest measurement, because the men march and fight better under such conditions! But may I remind the right hon. Gentleman that medical advisers exist in other countries? France, face to face with a problem in many respects far graver than ours, but which they have taken far more seriously than we have taken ours, were immensely exercised over the question whether the age of entry of recruits could be lowered below twenty-one—that is to say, whether the age of the fighting men, even for European campaigning could be under twenty-one and a half. It is only with the very greatest reluctance and after searching physical tests that they have agreed to do it. The experience of war tells us the same. Everyone who has read the history of the Napoleonic campaigns remembers the terrible mortality of the young French recruits, who after the Russian disaster, were dragged out at ages from nineteen to twenty-one, to fight the campaign of Leipsic. The young "Marie Louises," as they were called from their girlish faces, absolutely wasted away after a few weeks' marching. It really seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman might take a Debate of this character more seriously than he has done, and answer somewhat more reasonably the speeches, so free from party prejudice, which have been on all sides of the House.
The right hon. Gentleman, coming back gradually to his old love, is beginning to criticise the Cardwell scheme. He admits that that scheme, as it affects the men, is an unfair scheme. Of course it is. The whole point of the scheme was to keep a man for as long as you possibly could, without giving him a pension, until he was too old to turn with any prospects of success to another method of earning a livelihood. It was a fraud upon the men, and it avenges itself upon the Army, as such frauds always will. It avenges itself, not only in actual shortage of recruits, but in the type of men you get. With the prospects of the Army as they are to-day, you will not get able, hale men of 20, who can look to their future, to enlist. You will get the improvident and the out-of-work, and the man who is not old enough to get steady wages in other employment. The result is that, instead of a heavy pension vote you get an even heavier crèche vote, you get 30,000 or so boys, who cost from £50 to £60 a year, and cannot be sent abroad in the event of war. It is much better to pay pensions to men who serve their country throughout their lives than to pay a number of boys who wear uniforms, eat food, cost a great deal more than five times the number of pensioners, and then are not available when the time of stress comes. This is not a new problem. I remember reading an article in "The Nineteenth Century" in which Lord Roberts, in 1884, pointed out that very defect of the Cardwell system, and said that it would lead to the steady deterioration of the type, physique, and age of the recruits whom we enlisted.
There is another respect in which the right hon. Gentleman is beginning to go back upon the official scheme at present adopted. He is beginning to apologise for the Special Reserve. He is beginning to point out, as many Members on this side pointed out, in face of the denials of the right hon Gentleman's predecessor, that in destroying the Militia, we also destroyed the corporate spirit, which was one of the great inducements of recruiting. What is the condition to-day? Let me remind the House that the Militia; which might have had a great deal done to improve it, did, in fact, in the South African War, provide 29,000 Militia Reservists to reinforce the Regular Army—mature men, in years, in training, in every respect equal to the ordinary Special Reservists. [An HON. MEMBER: "More than equal."] I wish to put the case quite moderately. Over and above that, the Militia mobilised 124 battalions of Infantry and a large number of Artillery and Engineering units. Sixty-eight of those Militia battalions besides other units went abroad, sixty to South Africa, and eight to St. Helena and the Mediterranean. The present scheme provides, instead of 29,000 drafts for the Army, something like 35,000 at the outside; and instead of sixty-eight battalions for foreign service, it is supposed to provide twenty-seven. It can only raise about 10,000 men, and to bring those battalions up to a strength of 500 or 600, and to make them worth anything whatever, they have to be padded out with 5,000 or 6,000 Reservists, who pro tanto are taken from the strength of the Reserve.
The right hon. Gentleman talked about there being no shortage on mobilisation. The scheme for which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible is not a scheme for mobilisation only; it is a scheme to mobilise a force to hold the field for at least six months. But when you take the number of trained mature men over after mobilisation, after deducting the recruits, the sick, and the immature, there are not 50,000 trained and mature men available to be sent forward as drafts. I admit that if the only war we were fighting was the one in which the Expeditionary Force was engaged, and if the casualties were kept down to a certain official calculation of 5 per cent. per month, undoubtedly we should have enough for a six months' war, and, I believe, a margin of 15,000 or 20,000. But I venture to say that in any serious campaign the casualties in the first two or three battles would exceed that official calculation, and absorb the whole of our Reserve available for drafts. And are we going to suppose, if we are fighting on the Continent, that we shall have no trouble anywhere else? Will not the 75,000 white troops in India want drafts? Will not the Mediterranean garrisons want drafts? What about the ordinary peace flow of drafts to India? None of these problems seem to have been faced by the right hon. Gentleman.
There is another significant omission. In previous years the Secretary of State has always spoken with a great deal of pride of the 144,000 Regulars over and above the Territorial Force left behind to defend this country when the Expeditionary Force is mobilised. We hear nothing of that now. It is just as well that we do not. In the first place, the number is not 144,000, but a good deal below. It is more like 115,000 or 120,000. But that is the scrap-heap of the Army. It includes 40,000 or 50,000 matured, trained soldiers, not in compact units which could go out to fight, but scattered about, with all the recruits and the sick, with practically no officers or non-commissioned officers. If we go to war, we shall be in exactly the same position as we were at the beginning of 1900, when Sir Evelyn Wood was able to tell Lord Elgin's Commission that in one case one officer had to look after 1,700 men, and when Lord Lansdowne admitted that the 100,000 left behind could in no sense be described as an Army. These units may be very useful for training drafts; they may even supply some element in the defence of our stationary ports and garrisons; but they are of no conceivable use as a mobile field force.
8.0 P.M.
For that purpose we have to rely on the Territorial Army. There, again, I think it is significant that the right hon. Gentleman was not as confident about the future as he has been in the past. He dwelt on the excellent recruiting of the past year, but he admitted that there was going to be a very heavy outgoing of men who have stayed beyond their four years' service, and that there would be difficulties in the future. He did not, I am afraid, tell the House the full extent of those difficulties. He is satisfied with the recruiting of 67,000 men. I would ask the House to follow me in certain, I hope not too detailed or complicated, figures. To maintain an establishment of 300,000—which is the establishment of the Territorial Army—on a four years' basis, you must have a clear net intake of recruits of 75,000 per annum. To keep them at the present figure of about 240,000 men you must have a clear net intake of 60,000 recruits per year. The record figures the right hon. Gentleman has given us are of the gross intake of recruits in the Territorial Force for the year. But there is always an enormous wastage of men who for one reason or another, with or without permission, leave the Territorial Force before their time has expired. The average wastage, not due to expiry of service, in the Territorial Force, has been 28,000 a year during the last four years. If you deduct that from the recent record figure of 67,000, you will find that the real net intake of recruits during this record year has been only 40,000 men. At this rate, on a four years basis, we shall soon be down to a Territorial Force of 160,000. In order to keep the Force up to its present strength you want a gross intake of something like 88,000 recruits a year. Where are you going to get them? Officers may go on inducing their men to protract their service a year or two longer. I doubt if they will go on doing it for ever. At any rate, in so far as they do do it, they only do it at the expense of that Territorial Reserve of which we used to hear so much, but of which we have not heard anything during the last four years. It is the very men who would have gone into that Territorial Reserve who have been induced by the entreaties of their officers to stay for another year in the Territorial Force. Looking at that problem, whether from the point of view of the Regular Army, the Special Reserve, or the Territorial Force, that cannot go on much longer.
I would like also to touch for a few moments upon the most interesting question of invasion. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, who complained that it was unfair to the House to ask us to Debate the Army Estimates, by moving Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, without being told the result of the discussions. We have one very significant light thrown upon these discussions. From the brief answer of the Prime Minister we gather that the statutory invader of 70,000 men is not, in spite of the efforts which I feel sure were being made, dislodged from his position. He stands still entrenched at 70,000. The attempt to whittle him down to 50,000, or to 40,000, have failed. Therefore the figure is one on which we ought to be able to put greater reliance than before. Still, I venture to say it is under-estimated rather than over-estimated. Really, though, is it not a rather extraordinary thing in considering the defence of one's country, and of a Great Empire, that you should base it upon a statutory invader whose size you fix yourself? Would it not be far better to say that you are developing the whole armed strength of the nation to meet even any contingency? There is a reason for that, which I think deserves far greater prominence in this House than it has received throughout these Debates. That is that the strength of our home defence organisation requires to be determined by considerations over and above the strength of any possible invader.
The one lesson which above others the South African war enforced, the one lesson which Lord Elgin's Commission definitely placed before the people of this country, was that it was essential in any great war in the future that we should have the power of great expansion over and above the Regular Forces of the Crown. In our war with two petty farmer Republics, we almost at the outset exhausted the Regular Army, which was just as great as it is to-day. It was not so well organised to meet mobilisation. No one disputes that. But the total number of men whom you could put into the field in three or four months was as great. We were thrown back upon every sort of makeshift and expedient. Can any say that the dangers which may threaten us in India, in Canada, on the Continent, are comparable to a war like that? The dangers are far greater; consequently, the need for a power of expansion is infinitely greater than it was. Lord Haldane was continually talking about the great reservoir of expansion that the Territorial Force was going to supply. Where is that reservoir to-day? Who mentions it? That reservoir is sucking the other way. From the refusals of the right hon. Gentleman to answer questions, it is clear that so far from adding to the strength of the Expeditionary Force, the weakness of the Territorial Force is going to be a drag upon the Expeditionary Force, and to keep men kicking their heels here in England, while the Empire may be going to pieces in India, or the whole fabric of our European position may be in course of being overthrown.
When we have put up so serious a case, I suggest that it requires a more serious answer than the right hon. Gentleman has given. This is not the time, and I do not think it is the place of the Opposition to suggest concrete proposals. I would be prepared to suggest plenty if I had more time, or if it were our business on this side of the House to make such proposals. So far, we have heard no suggestion of concrete proposals from the right hon. Gentleman which approach the whole gravity of the problem. He has done a little for the officers. For what it is we thank him. But is that going to dispose of the shortage of something like 6,000 officers? In passing, I may say that I largely agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland said. I had the privilege of seeing what Australia has done in the way of military service. I was able to spend more time than he did at the remarkable college which the Australians have created. There they go on the principle, not of raising men from the ranks and then trying to find a training for them by some makeshift or other; they take the men from every walk of life and give them gratis a four years' training of the very finest character. They are turning out what I believe will be some of the finest Regular officers in the British Empire. It is not, I say, our business to make concrete proposals. Our business is to ask the right hon. Gentleman and the Government to tell us what the defensive position of the British Empire is to-day with regard to our military needs, just as they do tell us it with regard to our Naval needs. If they did so; if they gave us frankly the opinion of their experts as the Australian Government gave the Australian people the opinion of Lord Kitchener, as to what it is necessary for the people to do, I am prepared to leave it to the people of this ancient country who, I believe, are just as willing to make any sacrifice necessary as are the people of France, or the people of Australia. But they do want to know for what it is they are asked to work or to make sacrifices. If they are informed of what is needed, they will do what is required.
In the few minutes left to me I would like to say how very much I personally deplore the levity with which the right hon. Gentleman seems to treat this very serious shortage in the Army. Yesterday he simply alluded to the shortage—also to-day for that matter—while he suggests that the shortage in the Regulars is merely a matter to be put right from the surplus in the Reserve. He has not given any reason for that optimism in the answer he has given to the very serious criticisms which have been made from this side. Yesterday, when he alluded to the shortage of the Special Reserve, all he could say about it was that the Special Reserve was very useful as a means of getting recruits for the Army. Apparently the destruction of the Militia and the setting up in its place of the Special Reserve is to be followed also by the destruction of the Special Reserve. The shortage in the Territorial Force was hardly alluded to at all yesterday. Yet here we are in 1914 with a shortage of over 80,000 men in the miserable and inadequate establishment laid down by the present Government for our defence, and no hopes are given to the House that we shall even arrive at that establishment. The strength of the Army to-day, considering the responsibilities we have to undertake, is in any case extraordinarily small. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that we are ready to send out of this country an Expeditionary Force of 162,000 men. He goes on to say that the other numbers of our forces is 121,000 serving at home in the Regular Army, and the Reserves 146,000. If you deduct the Expeditionary Force from these two figures, you have left in this country, on the departure of the Expeditionary Force, very little over 107,000. This figure will include all the Reservists, who are unfit to go abroad, all the young soldiers, who are too young to go abroad, all the sick men and the unfit men. That will leave a very small force indeed of Regular troops. In addition to these, we know we have 250,000 Territorials, and in addition some 60,000 Special Reservists.
We are not spending any more than we spent a hundred years ago on our defence. Our responsibilities were not then anything like so great as they are to-day. In 1805 we had 742,000 men under arms in this country. It is quite true that that time was a time of war, but it was also a time when our population was only one-third of what it is now. Again, we were then a self-contained country, able to produce all the wheat and to raise all the meat we required. We did not have to rely upon oversea resources for the raw materials that we required for our manufactures. At that time, too, we were not responsible for an Empire anything like the size of the present British Empire. In India we had perhaps not one-fifth of the amount of territory that we have now. Australia was not settled at all, with the exception of some small settlement at Sydney. New Zealand did not exist as a British Dominion. The Cape did not belong to us at that time. Yet, in 1805, we had under arms 742,000 men. The potential enemy against which we raised this force only consisted at that time of 551,000 men. That was the strength of the French Army. At that time we knew that the Navy was supreme. We did not know it by paper calculations of a 60 per cent. or a 30 per cent. margin. We knew it by the test of Trafalgar. If at that time we found it necessary to have that number of men under arms, it points, at any rate, to the fact that we shall require a very much larger number of men than we have at the present time in the unhappy event of war breaking out.
Amendment negatived.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Supply: Army Estimates, 1914–15
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Vote A.—Number of Land Forces
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a number of land forces, not exceeding 184,600 of all ranks, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, at home and abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915."
It being a Quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put.
Private Business
Taff Vale Railway Bill
Read a second time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Condition of the Blind
I beg to move, "That, in the opinion of this House, the present system of voluntary effort in aid of the Blind People of this Country does not adequately meet their necessities, and that the State should make provision whereby capable Blind People might be made industrially self-supporting, and the incapable and infirm maintained in a proper and humane manner."
The Motion applies to two general principles, to the first of which I have not the slightest doubt every Member of this House will give immediate assent, and that general principle is that there is no class of persons in the United Kingdom who can reasonably make a stronger demand on the sympathy and help of this House than the blind people. They are in a peculiar position of helplessness, and it seems to me that this helplessness—this state of perpetual night in which they live—ought not to be added to by leaving them in indigence and in a state of perpetual poverty. I am quite sure therefore, in regard to that aspect of the question, I shall receive the assent of every Member of the House of Commons. The second general principle to which I want to draw attention may not meet with the same general agreement, nevertheless I state it as my profound belief. That general principle is this, that no system which is not organised and controlled by the State will meet the situation with regard to this particular class of individuals. They cannot be relied upon, either the male or the female blind, to be in a position to help themselves entirely, and what they cannot do for themselves the whole nation, acting together through its elected representative, can and ought to do. These are the two general principles upon which I start. I want to say that nothing is more certain in regard to this problem than that private charity has broken down. It has been, so far as the solution of this problem is concerned, a failure—first of all, because it is not sufficient in quantity, and, secondly, because it is correlated and directed from one central force.
What are the facts so far as I can get hold of them with regard to this problem of the blind? There are, so far as one can learn, 26,336 blind people in England and Wales, and in the United Kingdom somewhere between 32,000 and 34,000. What is their position? The hon. Member for Blackburn put a question the other day to the Prime Minister, and in that question he made the assertion that of these blind people there are 5,000 in our workhouses, 5,000 receiving parish relief, and 7,000 begging their bread, exposed to the inclemency of the weather, acting as a perpetual reproach to us all. It seems to me every time one meets a blind beggar there is a challenge to our whole system of society. Of the whole number there are only apparently 3,000 employed in voluntary institutions, and, even in their case, the wages they receive are less than 10s. a week. Out of 3,552 sightless persons in the Metropolitan area 1,210 are inmates of the workhouses. My Motion recognises that there are two classes of blind people. There is the class that is capable of doing something towards earning their own living, and there is the class which is incapable and infirm. But out of this class we take those that cannot without help meet the problem of existence. We do not ask for the capable that they shall not do something towards earning their living: what we do ask for them is that they should receive help and assistance in trying to solve that problem, and that they should get training and have employment found for them. Now what has charity done? I do not want to minimise it. I always believed, and believe still, that there is plenty of good will in the world, that there are plenty of people ready to help, but this good will is not always wisely directed, and it certainly does not solve the difficulties which have to be solved in this case. This good will leads to a creation of a number of excellent voluntary institutions, but even these, when full, only provide opportunities for training some 2,310 persons, and that out of a total number is a mere infinitesimal proportion.
Charity has also found a lot of money for the blind. Large sums have been left as bequests, and nobody knows exactly how much has been left in this way, but it is variously estimated at the capital sum of between £2,000,000 and £3,000,000. If this sum were properly invested it would no doubt bring in an annual income of about £100,000, but what happens to it? Certainly much of it is not spent. The capital does not seem to be entrenched upon, and a large part of the income appears to go in salaries of permanent officials and the expenses of keeping the organisations going. Out of the total number of the blind there are only about 5,800 who are receiving small pensions, averaging not more than £10 per annum. For the disbursement of these charities there are no less than fifty different organisations, with the result that there is overlapping, waste, and great expense, and it is not the sightless who are getting the major part of the benefit. I am informed that the cost of obtaining subscriptions for these institutions and charities ranges from 25 per cent. to 33 per cent. of the proceeds. Mr. Ben Purse, in the "British Blind," gives some interesting information. I ought to say that Mr. Purse is a blind man who has done more than any other single person for the benefit of the blind. He has organised and written and agitated, and I think I am right in saying that, but for his efforts it is very doubtful indeed whether we should have got to the position of having the Debate in the House of Commons on this question.
In his pamphlet, entitled "The British Blind," Mr. Purse points out cases that in a subscription list, the total proceeds of which realised £210 per annum, there is a secretary who receives out of that sum £160. In another case the total subscription list amounts to £310, and the secretary receives £300. I do not say that these are typical instances, but they show that in a number of these cases a large part of the subscriptions goes in salaries. I am not attacking the men, but the system. It seems to me that the whole system is wrong, and ought to be put an end to. Private charity has failed to settle this problem, not from want of good will, as I have already said, but from want of well directed effort in the real object which ought to be brought about, such as want of organisation and centralised control. This problem, in spite of all the voluntary efforts which are readily acknowledged, in spite of the fifty organisations attempting to deal with it, remains as urgent as ever it was, indeed, in my opinion, it is more urgent than ever to-day. There remains only one solution, and that is, that the State, in conjunction with the municipalities, should take up this problem and attempt to solve it on reasonable lines. A Mr. Lewis has said:— blindness are now said to be due to the failure to attend to this disease in its very early stages. If that be so, and I think the evidence is overwhelming to that effect, then it is a great pity to say the least of it that this Order was not issued long ago. In 1851 the proportion of the blind to our population was one in 900. In 1901 it had been reduced to one in 1,285, and according to the Census returns for 1911, it was then one in 1,370. It is still a very large proportion of the population, and if this compulsory Order had been made in 1851 it is probable that the number of the blind would not have been more than half what it is at the present time.
In Manchester last year under the permissive Order which was issued by the Local Government Board, with an expenditure of £150 only, that city treated and saved the sight of 80 children. Under the 1893 Act for the Education of the Blind and Deaf it would have cost from £300 to £350 for each child to have been trained compulsorily under that Act. Therefore, as a mere matter of £ s. d. alone, it pays to save these children from this disease. I do not put it on the ground of expense at all. I say that it is criminal folly on the part of any community which allows children to become blind when, for a small expenditure like that, they can be saved from it. Under this Act, the Act of 1893, provision is made for education, but no provision is made for employment thereafter, with the consequence that the large expenditure for training is practically wasted, and the blind are exploited and underpaid, as the figures I have already quoted show. In addition to that, large numbers get no remunerative employment at all. In London, out of 3,552 sightless persons, only 260 are provided for industrially. In the East End of London there are 650 persons who are blind, and not a single workshop facility is provided for them. Where they are employed the piece-work system is largely put into operation, with the result that very small wages are paid to them, and, indeed, I think we may safely say that they are sweated in a fashion which is a disgrace to our country.
The League for the Blind, the Labour party, and my Motion all suggest that it is advisable to make all the capable blind, as far as possible, industrially self-supporting. We are not in favour of keeping them idle; we are in favour of them being trained, employed, given useful work to do, made as happy as it is possible under the circumstances, and kept from poverty, indigence, and sweating. Of course, it may be true to say that such employment will not be self-supporting, and that it will not provide sufficient funds itself to pay the necessary wages. That may or may not be so, but, if ever there was a case of subsidising employment, this surely is one, and the sum expended ought not to be grudged by anybody. Here, again, private institutions, though they have done something, and we admit it in no grudging fashion, have failed to solve the problem. The figures which I have given you are already sufficient proof, if proof be needed, that the wages paid are insufficient, indeed, in some cases, following the fashion nowadays, I believe that there have been even strikes of the blind, and the opportunities for work are too few. I am convinced that the case I have put, so far as the capable blind are concerned, is an unanswerable case for the State taking up this problem. Could we not in this country create some reserve services for these people, some work of a character which they could perform, and leave it as far as possible for them to do? I am told that in Japan such a thing happens. I do not press that point unduly, but I do say that the State ought to take up this problem and solve it. The State should undertake the organisation of this work.
There remains besides that the problem of the infirm and the incapable. It is a different problem altogether. At the present time they are in workhouses; they are receiving parish relief; they are begging their bread in the streets. Large sums of money, as I have already indicated, are collected, and the State should inquire into the present method of dealing with this money and into the whole problem so far as these indigent blind are concerned, and should either absorb or supplement the money which is at command, so that no blind person shall be neglected. In my opinion, there ought not to be a single blind person begging his bread in the whole of this country. This great and rich country ought not to permit such a sight to be seen. What are the Government going to do? The Prime Minister, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden), was very sympathetic. Two years ago the Home Secretary advised the deputation which waited upon him from the League of the Blind to make their peace with the voluntary agencies which are at work in this matter, and then to come again and see him. The League of the Blind have put forward year after year a Bill in this House. The voluntary agencies a short time ago put forward a Bill. They have come to terms, the League of the Blind and the voluntary agencies, and there is no further controversy, I understand, between them. Peace has been made. A draft Bill has been prepared, and that draft Bill, both on behalf of the voluntary agencies and the League of the Blind, puts forward as its central fact that this is a matter which the State ought to take up, and which the State ought to seek to solve. That being so, it seems to me that the Government ought to have no difficulty whatever in accepting the Motion which I am moving to-night. Will the Government assist in getting that measure passed? I think that the time for discussion and inquiry is getting past and gone on this question. Not very long ago a distinguished novelist and dramatist had something to say about the heartlessness of Parliament. Here is an opportunity for testing Parliament. Where, to-night, are the baiters of Chancellors and the weepers over the sorrows of the dukes? We are now considering the problem of dealing with the blind. It is a compassable problem; its dimensions are easily ascertainable; it is one of great urgency, and there should be no avoidable delay in dealing with it. It cannot be left to solve itself. The blind of this country are in sufficient numbers to form a fair-sized city. Blind Bartimeus appeals to-night to this House, and I hope his tapping-stick raps will not be in vain. I am asking the Government to listen to this call for assistance; let not sightless eyes grope in vain for a hand to help. His unceasing patience begs for relief from his load of undeserved misery. Professor Pollard, in a recent History of England, uses words which I will paraphrase:— them, and the Government to step into the breach and do its duty.
I feel there will her very little opposition to a Motion of this character, and I am led to that conclusion by the fact that less than two years ago a conference was held in one of the rooms upstairs, to which Members belonging to all parties were invited. At that time there happened to be two Bills before this House, neither of which, like many other measures, stood the slightest chance of passing. There was a rather sharp division of opinion as to the lines upon which the Bill should travel, and as the result of that meeting—and I see some Members here now who were present at it—it was agreed that the matter should be deferred to see if some arrangement were not possible, as between the two sides. It was not altogether a question of objection, to the State taking its share in the work; the difficulty rather arose from the fact that these voluntary organisations, to which I want to give the highest credit for the work they have done in this matter, themselves or through their representatives, had to confess that the time had arrived when some support must be given, by the State, if their good work was to be continued. And when we, as workingmen, had a Motion of that kind, we felt that there was not only justice in the claim, that the State should step in, but that the time had really arrived when the matter should be taken up seriously by a Government Department, As has been stated, a Bill has been drafted with that object, although up to the present it has not been laid on the Table of this House. When the representatives of these voluntary bodies told us that their funds were being diminished—I cannot now go into the-reasons for that—and when they acknowledged that the work they had been engaged in, although not at a standstill, was being seriously hampered, we sent a deputation to the Home Secretary. When I say "we," I am speaking of the Trades Union Congress, which had this matter before it not once or twice, but on several different occasions. Our deputation was received in the best possible spirit, and I want to give the present Home Secretary every credit for the genuine sympathy which was expressed by him. But he told us that, owing to the congestion of Parliamentary work, it might be, difficult to get a Bill passed. I wish to submit to this House that, looking to the fact that there is a common agreement between hon. Members on both sides, the time is ripe for a serious effort on the part of the Government to bring about legislation on the lines foreshadowed in the Bill. The most ardent opponent of State interference, or of State assistance, surely must realise that when State assistance is asked for those who are really helpless, the claim demands special consideration. Let me introduce one aspect of the question. Where these workshops have been set up, and they are doing splendid work, even there they are open to the competition which other branches of the trade have to contend with, and prison-made goods constitute one of the factors which keep the wages of the blind low. That has been acknowledged time and again. Why, after being trained, after being made self-supporting citizens, should people in that position, or should an industry like that, be subjected to such competition as that of prison made goods My feeling is that if the State will come forward and help us, as it should do, that aspect of the question could be eliminated and the position improved of these men and women, who, at present, are in receipt of a mere pittance in wages, not because of any fault of those running these institutions, but because they have not sufficient money whereby they can pay proper wages, through, largely, unfair competition. A Motion of this kind need only be tabled and spoken to in the able manner in which it was moved by my hon. Friend in order to meet with the approval of every Member of this House. We are asking tonight that the sympathy expressed so many times by responsible Members of the Government shall be put into practice. The Government may have delayed dealing with the matter until the pulse of the House has been felt, but I hope that the result of to-night's discussion will be that the right hon. Gentleman who occupies the position of Home Secretary may see his way, not only to accept the Motion, but to decide upon legislation, and, when he has decided upon it, put his back into it, in order that the wishes to which it gives expression may be given effect to.
The hon. Member for Stockport who moved this Resolution in a speech full of information and full of the kindest possible feeling, making many practical suggestions, the other day quoted a distinguished literary gentleman who had written of the House of Commons that it was a place of singular heartlessness, because it did not adopt any of those particular Acts of Parliament which appeared to him to be the nearest and dearest to the hearts of all people. He complained bitterly that this House of Commons spends so much time in quarrelling over great constitutional questions, leaving just a little corner of its time for subjects really affecting humanity, raising the hopeless in feeling, and making the world better than it is. Without at all endorsing those somewhat acrid criticisms, I think somewhat ignorant criticisms, of the House of Commons, I also, as a very old Member of the House of Commons, feel that we do not set enough time apart in this House for legislation on problems of this character, in regard to which, in the main, there is a general consensus of opinion, not only as to particular problems, but also as to the particular manner in which it would be possible to give redress for grievances such as that which is brought before us to-night. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on having made good use of his opportunity, at all events. His Motion is one which will not entirely command my assent, but he has amply proved his Preamble, and I never heard a truer Preamble, or one more distinctly proved than this by the hon. Gentleman.
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He admits himself that the third operative part of the Preamble has already been accomplished, and that we have to thank the late President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Burns), who has now been removed to another Department of the State, for one of his last acts in his former position, in making compulsory notification of that peculiar form of ophthalmia which, if neglected, undoubtedly causes much blindness that can be prevented if only it is notified and dealt with in its earlier stages. As regards another part of the Motion, the hon. Member endeavours to persuade the State, or rather the Ministers who are responsible for certain Departments of the State, to see to it that the necessities of the infirm and incapable are met, and that they should be always secure of proper and humane treatment. That is a really very difficult part of the problem. That seems to me to touch the whole fringe of the Poor Law. They are deserving of our sympathy, and I do not know any who are very much more deserving of our sympathy than many of the classes of infirm people who are incapable of earning their living. But it seems to me almost a question that must wait until we deal with the whole question of the Poor Law as it touches the infirm and incapable. Where I do join with the hon. Member in thinking that he is bringing forward a practical Motion tonight is the first part of it, which urges that the country shall in future adequately meet the necessities of those who are capable blind people and capable of being so educated as to be self-supporting or partially self-supporting. That is where I feel the House singularly fails in its duties. I recollect some years ago setting up a friendship with Mr. Campbell, son of Sir Francis Campbell, and who is himself now principal of the College for the Blind in Glasgow. Some years ago I had very many conversations with Mr. Campbell and with Sir Francis Campbell which led me to look into the statistics, and I own I was shocked and horrified at the little we do for the blind and the little we do for the capable blind. That is a distinct error of education. It is not the fault of one party or of another. We do not give sufficient time to these questions on which there is a general consensus of opinion. I agree with the hon. Member entirely that voluntary effort has utterly broken down in this particular domain of charity, and I think the very fact that something like twenty years ago the State took upon itself to do something by means of Grants for the education of children has helped to dry up the resources of philanthropic people who ought to have given something more than they have done in this particular domain of charity. The hon. Gentleman pointed out that there are 5,000 blind capable of being practically educated so as to be able—I am much more hopeful than the hon. Gentleman opposite is—in many cases to keep themselves entirely, and in most cases to keep themselves partially. Yet the whole of our institutions can only contain between 1,000 and 2,000 out of that 5,000—practically 3,000 having to go wandering about, passing their time in perfect misery, because nobody takes them up and teaches them so that they may be able to support themselves. Pensions do not meet their case; pensions do not educate them; pensions do not bring them happiness or satisfy that great feeling which they have of wanting to earn like other men. Pensions can do nothing for that; only education can do it, and the education is being splendidly carried out by a few institutions, but they are not all endowed institutions. I think only three of them are endowed—the Leatherhead, Bristol, and Manchster institutions.
The Royal Normal School for the Blind has no endowment whatever, and most of those splendid institutions that are doing magnificent work have to appeal, almost in agony, for adequate support, and the support they receive is never in any circumstances adequate. They are now educating, the blind people in the way they ought to be educated, and they have struggled desperately to get the money necessary for an adequate education, and it is a splendid education which they give. The hon. Member opposite spoke of Mr. Ben Purse, who has done a great amount of valuable work on behalf of the blind; but I venture to pit against him Sir Francis Campbell, who has made the Royal Normal College the great centre of the musical training of the blind. The hon. Member opposite took a rather gloomy view of the capacity of the blind to earn their own living. I am hopeful. There have left the college and are now earning their own living entirely ninety-eight organists, something like sixty-eight general teachers, 350 teachers of music—generally in the musical profession—fifteen clergymen, and many typewriters. I do not speak of one college alone, for all the colleges are doing excellent work in this direction, but they are very much in need of more endowments and sustentation, because they have continually to reject people because of this lack of means, while, of course, they must select, to a certain extent, people who can afford to pay.
That is a great pity in itself, because many people who cannot afford to pay are not only just as deserving as those who can afford to pay, but can be educated to just as good a pitch of perfection. This is the case at the Royal Normal College at the Crystal Palace. Only 12 per cent. of their pupils are paid for entirely. The remaining 88 per cent. have to be assisted. The actual cost of the education and training amounts to £35 under fifteen, £45. between fifteen and sixteen, and £65 for those over sixteen. The whole of the rest of the money, except what they can afford to pay, has practically to be begged from, the public. There are institutions doing their best under Royal patronage, Royalty taking it up and giving it its blessing. Every man almost who is at all influential in the educational or philanthropic world every now and then commends it and writes letters to the papers, but money is never forthcoming, and it is so little for this rich nation to afford. It is a proof that voluntary effort has indeed broken down utterly, and it is only lately that the State has recognised its obligation towards the blind at all. Up till 1893 nothing was done by the State. A good deal, I admit, has been done since then, but it is only the very beginning. We ought to do more for the blind than almost any other class, and yet we do less. There was a Royal Commission in 1886 which recommended that a grant of £10 per head should be given for the education of the blind. What has been given? Only five guineas per head. What is the total cost of the education of the blind in London in the elementary schools? Here in London we have 494 blind children of the elementary school class between the ages of five and sixteen. There are six day schools for the blind up to thirteen, when they are very properly drafted into residential schools. There are two of these. The total cost of educating a blind child in London, if you take the total cost of the child in the elementary school, is £21 7s., and the Grant given towards that is five guineas. That is not worth much if you did not pass the child on for the other three years, from thirteen to sixteen, to the residential school. If you do that it costs £54 7s. to educate each blind child in London, if you are really going to give a proper education so as to make him partially or wholly self-supporting afterwards, and towards that all that the State gives is five guineas—something like 15 per cent. Look at what the State does for other cases. For ordinary elementary education the State, if you take all in, finds something like 50 per cent., and yet it only finds 15 per cent. for the education of the blind. For reformatory schools it finds 60 per cent., for industrial schools 40 per cent., and for secondary schools something like 30 per cent. It is the Cinderella of education, when it ought to be the princess of education. It ought to be the education that appeals to us most.
Can these children be educated so as to get their living? Is this practicable? Undoubtedly. There, again, the hon. Member (Mr. Wardle) takes a little too gloomy a view of what can be done. I do not agree with his figures about London. I think he has given us rather pessimistic views. I have here the annual report of the London County Council for 1912. There is a pithy paragraph which shows how very much can be done for these children, if only, in addition to their education, you can get good men and women to join that care committee. Splendid and noble work has been done by these people, some of the hardest and most difficult and most thankless, except that, I am sure, they must rejoice in a good conscience and the satisfaction of spending their time in that magnificent way:— fault?" What was the answer? "No; it is not the fault of the man or of the parent, but that the work of God might be made manifest in him." Here we have got a few hours. Let us do one of the works of God, and one of the greatest works of God is to look after the feeble and helpless, and to look after the blind, who have always appealed to the whole sympathy of mankind.
I crave permission to deal with one aspect of this question. One of the fundamentally unsound, though common, views in regard to the blind is that because they are blind, their intelligence may not be equal to that of other people. That is not true, as could be proved historically from the case of Milton downwards. I have known three blind Members of Parliament, and when I mention the name of Henry Fawcett, I need scarcely say that he was a standing proof of the extraordinary conquest which a determined and masculine mind can make over his infirmity. One of the points to which I am sure the Government will direct their attention is the improvement, not merely of education generally, but of the type of education that is given to the blind. My own interest in this matter, though submerged by other matters until recently, was revived by an interview I had in the last few days. There is a gentleman well known to many Members on this side of the House, Mr. C. Arthur Pearson, who has been afflicted with blindness. Everybody knows that he is one of the most able, active, and energetic men in connection with the Press. He was recently afflicted with almost complete blindness, and he did me the honour of asking me to go and see him. He asked my assistance in the relief of the afflicted people whose ranks he has joined. He is pushing forward that work with characteristic energy. I was touched by seeing the splendid courage with which this gentleman, who has been struck down with blindness at an early period of his life, was devoting all his extraordinary energy towards the relief of the blind. The point to which he directed my attention most in connection with the position of the blind, was the defectiveness of their education, and the consequent sweating to which they are subjected. I hope that everybody who reads my hon. Friend's speech to-morrow, will realise that the figures he produced are a terrible indictment.
As an Irishman I am interested in the question of blindness. Some of our most popular figures in Ireland have been blind. In my early days in Ireland nearly every popular figure was a blind man, and indeed, I remember hearing many blind musicians. In Ireland you will see blind harpers still. There are a great many diseases of the eye in Ireland which require very careful attention. Everybody knows that the blind are taught by what is called the Braille system. The point to which I wish to direct the attention of my right hon. Friend is that the Braille system is not sufficiently extended. If we could get every blind person educated, they would not be compelled to seek, as they do now, some of the meanest and cheapest work. As a matter of fact, a blind man thoroughly educated, would prove quite as efficient in many respects as those who have sight. The hon. Gentleman gave us many figures to show the extraordinary results which have been achieved in the college with which he has been associated. I am informed that in addition to the number of blind men who are musicians, a large number make excellent secretaries. They can make as quick speed in shorthand and typewriting as people who have sight, but they are not well educated, and that is because of the sparseness with which suitable books in Braille type have been published. I am afraid good people very often select bad books—I mean, goody-goody books. I have called attention to this defect in more Departments than one during my Parliamentary life. I remember calling attention to the literature supplied to the unfortunate men and women in gaol, and really I think the kind of literature to which they were treated was an aggravation instead of an alleviation of their troubles.
was understood to say that prisoners are bad characters.
The hon. Baronet has standards of good and bad people which are not quite mine. Whether good or bad, I think I would err on the side of mercy. I wish the hon. Baronet—I say it with all due respect to him—would show the same respect to men as to animals. With regard to the Braille system, the position is this: There are a large number of books produced, but I rather think these books deal too much with the serious and devotional side. Far be it from me to condemn books that are serious or devotional, but there are other sides of literature to which the blind have perhaps even a greater right than those who can see. The first thing that has to be done is to increase the number of books in Braille type, and at the same time to make a broader and more general selection of the literature produced in that way. I am sure any action of that kind would enormously help to develop the minds and improve the education of the blind, and in that way make them more self-supporting. The hon. Member who moved the Resolution insists that the blind should be made self-supporting. Carlyle has said that charity curses him that gives as well as him that receives unless it is properly directed. It would be better if the blind were independent, and that they should have the enjoyment that comes from being self-supporting. For these reasons I heartily support the Resolution.
I rise to support the Resolution, and I will briefly give my reasons for doing so. I do not think that anyone disagrees with the object which it is desired to obtain, and certainly no one denies the right of these poor people to receive every consideration at our hands. If in the past there has been some difficulty in obtaining the necessary legislation for the blind, I think it is chiefly because of the difficulty of getting both sides of the House to agree as to the methods to be adopted. I wish to make a few observations on the legislation so far as it has gone up to the present time. The House will realise, from the sympathetic speeches to which we have listened, that the young are comparatively well looked after, in so far as education is concerned, up to the age of sixteen. Their education until then is provided for under the Elementary Education (Blind and Deaf Children) Act of 1893. They get a far better education up to that period of their lives than they do technical training subsequently. I submit that much of the difficulty with which we are confronted at present arises not so much from the lack of dealing with these poor blind people in their youth, as from the manner in which we have neglected them afterwards. The hon. Member told us that there were in 1908 something like 26,000 blind people in the Kingdom. I would like to know where he got those figures?
They are Census figures.
I also have got Census figures for 1901, and I find that there were then in England and Wales alone something over 25,000 blind people. Half of those people became blind after the years when they might have been at school. That is a very important point in discussing this particular phase. Less than 2,500 of the total are under the age of fifteen. Only about 7,000 are between the ages of fifteen and forty-five, and of the remainder between 15,000 and 16,000 are from forty-five years upwards. I venture to assert that if you could discover the ages of those who are in workhouses to-day, you would find that they consist largely of persons who got through their school life and the preliminary technical training which they hoped might carry them on to old age without realising that blindness was going to afflict them at a later stage of their career. Therefore the attitude which has now been taken up ought to commend itself to all sections of the House. I may now refer to the history of this question of legislation for the blind. It was realised that the provision of education for the young under the Education Act, 1893, and the very inadequate provision for technical training under the Education Act, Part II., of 1902, was not nearly sufficient to meet the exigencies of the case. So at the International Conference of 1905 a strong National Committee was formed which was instructed to do its best to find a modus vivendi in the shape of a Bill, whereby all difficulties might be met. The first Bill was introduced in 1909. Hon. Members opposite also—I think it was a very good thing—introduced a Bill of their own on behalf of the National League of the Blind. That Bill went so far that this Committee, which had formerly introduced the first of these Bills, which was running parallel with the Bill of the Labour party, again took the matter in hand, and considered whether they could not improve the measure in some way to meet points on which the Labour party raised objections.
The result of their deliberation was the Bill which I had the honour to sponsor last year. That did not meet with their approval. I wish to show where the differences of opinion lay as between the two lines of thought, and also to show how very easy it is for two sides of the House, however differing they may be upon features of great national policies, to find a means of compromise when they direct their thoughts to an object, the betterment of which all have in view. The main features of the Bill which I introduced last Session were these: It provided for the technical education of all capable blind persons of from sixteen to fifty years of age for a period not exceeding five years. That was the main provision. I laid very great stress not so much upon the education of the young as upon technical training subsequent to the years at school. The second provision was for the employment of all poor blind persons so trained, and for the obtaining of employment for them in so far as it was practicable—I cannot put it more definitely than that. Hon. Members who have studied the Bill will know that it was made out in great detail. The third was the provision of the expenses of blind persons while under training, and the last was for Grants in augmentation of wages earned by persons so employed. I frankly admit that there is one failure in that Bill which I realise: We had no Grants other than voluntary ones from charity sources to meet augmentation of wages earned by the employed blind. However much we sympathise with the blind, and recognise that it is essential to mete out to them in their sad state rather different treatment from that given to other people, we do wish, at the same time, to encourage them to help themselves. I wish to impress this on my hon. Friends. If we have objected to State aid, it is because we feared we could not find any means of applying that State aid which might not at the same time rob the blind themselves of doing that work which they desire to do. But as I listened to my right hon. Friend behind me I realised more and more that it would have been wiser if we could have had a discussion on this point last year, because, associated as I am, closely, financially, and practically, with the control of one of the establishments that look after the blind, I know the extent to which we have entirely failed to appeal to the charitable to maintain the work which we are endeavouring to do.
It is most gratifying to find that the hon. Mover has been able to say that he cast no blame on those voluntary institutions. I wish he had been a little bit kinder in his reference to the disposition of the funds, for I can assure him that we try to make a penny look like a pound in dealing with these blind institutions in which I take so much interest. The objections of hon. Members to this Bill were that it contained no provision for a minimum wage for blind workers, that it only dealt with a minority of the blind, and that it did not deal at all with the incapable blind; and then they brought forward one ground of opposition which I never clearly understood: that the blind had never been consulted in the framing of the Bill. That was a ground of opposition which I should have liked an opportunity for reply in. Debate across the floor of the House, but it never arose during the last Session; for I can assure them, and they must know quite as well as I, that that was not the case, and that a large number of conferences were held between the Parliamentary Committee and the secretary and representatives of the National League of the Blind. The only difficulty was that we could not then come to some agreement whereby we could all go forward together. But it is a mistake to think that we did not consult those who are in closest touch with the people for whom we intend to legislate. I have here the amended Bill, which I hope to lay at an early date on the Table of the House. It is entitled, "The Education (Employment and Maintenance) of the Blind Bill No. 2." That Bill has been accepted most cordially by all sides in that little controversy which has been waged around the desire for legislation, so that I hope in the circumstances, now that we are entirely in agreement, that this measure, when it is presented to the House, will receive the cachet of approval of all sides who are anxious to forward a cause which is so sadly in need of additional legislation.
I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for North Kensington (Mr. Burgoyne) taking such, such an interest in this matter. He has stated his case most admirably—indeed. I think we may congratulate ourselves tonight that, even if the number of Members in the House is not very large, those who are here are interested and anxious to get something done. All the speeches made have been very much to the point, and I only desire to supplement in a few particulars some remarks that have fallen from those who have already spoken. I want to disarm the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) and to get him to admit that, in the case of the helpless, the blind, cripples, the aged and the children, there is a right and a duty on the part of the State to interfere. I admit that the State is gradually encroaching on what has generally been understood to be the sphere of individual rights. The House of Commons knows that very well.
And regrets it.
Although we may not all be agreed as to how far the State should encroach on that sphere, yet we do all agree, and I hope I have the hon. Baronet with me, that in the case we are considering the State should step in and do its very best. I am not sure that I have the hon. Baronet with me, but I hope I may convince him before I sit down. With regard to the speech of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle), which I very much enjoyed, he raised the point of what can be done with new-born infants. In England and Wales to-day there are not less than 5,000 people who, if they had been attended to when they were born, would not be blind. Probably the number is greater. If that is so, the Order of the Local Government Board has not come a moment too soon. I believe we shall diminish the number of cases of blindness very rapidly as the result of that Order. Is it not possible for us to do very much more in the direction of the education and training of those who have reached, say, the age of sixteen? We have admitted the case up to sixteen—although much more might be done for them—but, from the age of sixteen to fifty or sixty, a very great deal more might be done than is being done to-day. I am glad to see that both sides of the House are agreed upon this subject, and that there is practically no difference between those who have been responsible for various Bills in previous years. We have come to the point when voluntary institutions, if they are doing good work, might, and should, be subsidised, and that, in so far as they are not able to cope with this work, the State must step in and do it. If we are in agreement up to that point, I think we may safely leave it to the Government to devise a Bill that will satisfy us. It is not absolutely necessary for us now to go into details of the measure. I believe we shall have the sympathy of the Local Government Board in this matter.
In Germany, if my figures are correct, there are 34,000 blind people, to deal with whom there are thirty-five institutes and thirty-six workshops and homes, some of them very large. The provincial Governments make a grant of about £70,000 for the maintenance of those institutes and homes, and from private sources another £60,000 is collected. In that way the institutes alone are able to teach and train 13,000 blind people as against the comparatively small number mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Fulham (Mr. Hayes Fisher) and the hon. Member for Stockport. Germany is very often held up to us in other respects, and we might very well imitate her in this one. There is a great deal of leeway to be made up, and although Germany is by no means perfect in its care of the blind, it has done very much more than we have done in England. It is not quite true to say that the United States is doing all that it might for the blind, but there are one or two States which have taken action in a very effective way. Massachusetts formed a State Commission in 1905, and in 1908 Ohio followed their example. The duties of these Commissions will give us some idea of the United States institutions. They have the power, and it is their duty, to maintain and keep an accurate register of the blind. I do not think we do that. Every blind person, young or old, is, known—where they live, and all about them. In the second place, they aid the blind by teaching them industries, and then finding them employment. May I say here how heartily I appreciate all these after aid committees? These Commissions practically work upon those lines. Committees are formed which assist the work of teaching, training, and finding employment for the blind. Their third duty is to provide and maintain schools for industrial training, and workshops for the-employment of blind persons. Fourthly, they promote visits and teachings in the homes of the blind; and, fifthly, make inquiries concerning the cause of blindness and inaugurates such preventive measures as seem wise
The maternity benefit of the Insurance Act will be of very great value, because there is no doubt whatever that now nearly every child will get proper care at the time of birth, and if the Local Government Board could make it a notifiable disease, I imagine we should be able to cut at the root of this disease. I urge the Government very strongly to deal sympathetically with the Motion. I am certain there is some sympathy inside the Government Department, and that it is only a question of money. It cannot be a very big question so far as money is concerned. I would suggest that the Government should, as speedily as possible—I am not quite sure whether it would not be necessary to pass a Bill, and am afraid it would be—grant a sufficient subsidy to the voluntary institutions that are already doing good work, an I that they should immediately establish other institutions to fill up the gap left by the voluntary institutions. If that were done, we should, at any rate, free ourselves from the condemnation which is at prseent on our minds and hearts, that we have neglected this rather large class of helpless people, who are quite as deserving, if not more deserving, than many other sections who receive liberal assistance. I hope we shall have a very favourable answer from the Government and that something will be done before long.
It is the quality of mercy and not of charity that is not strained. There is a great distinction between the two, which the hon. Member for Scotland Division overlooked. It is suggested that in this case public charity has been strained to breaking point, but I do not think—though I appreciate the tone of the speech of the hon. Member for Stockport—that quite sufficient allowance is made for the very large sums collected by voluntary efforts or for the immensely good work done, for instance, by the Royal Midland Society for the Blind in the great Midland cities, a Division of one of which I represent. An immense deal of work is done in that way, and I think it would be only fair to admit that before putting a case for further indefinite subventions which are now demanded from the Government with whom the hon. Member said it is only a question of money. It is only a question of money, the fifty or sixty millions which the Government has added to the annual draft from the pockets of the taxpayers and ratepayers of this country, including what is taken for old age pensions. I have as great sympathy with the blind as any hon. Member in this House, but I cannot understand why it is suggested that the blind are in any way inferior in intelligence to any of us, and certainly nobody could suggest that who had read Homer and Milton, I suppose two of the greatest poets in the whole world, both of whom were absolutely bereft of sight, and one of whom wrote the finest sonnet to the blind in the English language. I do not know who could have suggested that, or who is going to doubt that the blind are entitled to all the compassion, mercy, and assistance anybody can possibly give them, but I submit that all matters must be measured by money. When we read the terms of this Resolution, why it might amount to a stage on the way to another fifty or sixty millions.
Let the House consider those terms. The Resolution asks that the State should make provision whereby capable blind people might be made industrially self-supporting. That is, by subventions, so as to place them in the same position as those who have not been afflicted with this appalling calamity. Unhappily, no education can put the blind on the same footing as the seeing, or can altogether obliterate the effects of this terrible visitation. As that is the case, what is proposed is really that the State, which means the ratepayers and the taxpayers, for there are no State funds, and the State is poorer than the poorest Member of this House, it merely means the pockets of the people; and it is suggested that out of the pockets of the already terribly burdened taxpayer and ratepayer, the whole expenses of putting the blind in the same position as the seeing shall be borne by the State. As if that was not sufficient and is really an unconsidered trifle, at the end of this Resolution the State—that is to say, the taxpayers and ratepayers—are asked to maintain the incapable and infirm in a proper and humane manner. The House is asked to-night to pass this Resolution, upon which no doubt a Bill will be subsequently drafted, which would lead to some sort of unestimated, unconsidered, and incalculable expenditure, which has characterised all the proceedings of one who should be the guardian of the public finance, but has been the most wanton expender of the present Administration. Is there any reason because humanity demands that everything that can be done should be done for the afflicted, why therefore all the considerations of expense, by which all these subjects must be measured, should be thrown to the winds and a Vote taken on this Resolution, and a Bill, regardless of expense, should subsequently be promoted and rushed through the House?
I demur most regretfully to any such reasoning. I most deeply deplore that blindness does carry with it some disabilities and infirmities which no action of this House and no expenditure of public money can ever remove. It was stated here to-night that a certain number of blind people are begging in this country, and that is regarded by the hon. Member for Stockport as a disgrace to our civilisation. I regret as much as any hon. Member that any man should beg, but what is their standard? I take it that all standards to be of value, and to have any meaning, must be comparative. Is there any country in the world which has not got its blind beggars? Is it not more natural that a poor man, bereft of sight, should be brought to beg than others? Is it not far more venial and excusable, perhaps wholly excusable, and not a matter of fault at all that he should beg, while in others it would be a disgrace to civilisation? I cannot follow the hon. Member's argument, yet I believe myself to be as humane a man as even the hon. Member who moved this Resolution. Then a statement was made by the hon. Member for Stockport, which I rather regretted, that the whole of the money collected did not reach the blind. Something must go in expenses, but I do submit that the amount spent in that way out of the money that is collected for the blind by an institution like the Royal Midland Institution is infinitesimal compared with the proportion spent in adminstration by any funds administered by the Government. It is a mere fraction, and therefore I do not think it is quite fair to suggest that an undue proportion of the funds collected are in any way wasted by those admirable institutions or diverted from reaching the objects of the charity for which they are subscribed.
I do really submit in all seriousness to the House, which I hope will bear with me in doing what I believe to be my duty, since I observe that what I am saying is apparently not in consonance with the tone of the Members, that we have now reached a stage in the expenditure of money, collected often with great difficulty from hard-working people—not infirm, not unsound—from the ordinary working men, and by that I do not mean only the man who works with his hands. I say we have now reached a stage in which the object of compassion is becoming the man who is subject to all these exactions, to which there is no end, and to which apparently there will be no end. My right hon. Friend behind seemed to think that it was not only desirable, but almost incumbent upon the State, or, as I say, the public taxpayer, for there is no State fund to pay more for the education of the blind man than for the education of the seeing man. I venture to counter that proposition, with all respect to him. I say that the first draft on the taxpayers' money is due to the man who is most likely to be useful to the general body of taxpayers when he has been educated. I deny altogether that because any man has the dreadful affliction of blindness, on which I deeply and sincerely compassionate him, that therefore more money of the taxpayer should be spent upon him than upon the man whom this generation of taxpayers has to look to-to pay taxes, and keep the State going in the next generation. This Resolution proposes that the incapable and infirm blind should be maintained in a proper and humane manner. What is the meaning of a vague expression of that sort? It might include all sorts of comforts and luxuries which those who have to pay taxes and rates cannot afford to provide for themselves. The Member for North Kensington (Mr. Burgoyne) referred to a Bill, and those who backed it. I was one of the backers, and I backed it out of sympathy and compassion for the blind, and also as a protest against the Bill promoted by hon. Gentlemen upon the Labour Benches, which was a Bill drawn with their habitual disregard of cost. The Bill to which my hon. Friend refers, the Education, Employment, and Maintenance of the Blind (No. 2) Bill, is about to be introduced into the House of Commons. It is certainly a preferable Bill to that which was drafted by the Labour party. As my hon. Friend was in order in referring to this Bill, I conclude that if I do not dwell upon it I shall not be out of order. Under this Bill, which—or a more drastic one will be the outcome when this Resolution has been adopted by the House—the local authority is to provide technical training, employment, and maintenance; there are provisions for monthly grants to institutions in respect of the persons employed; monthly grants to blind persons holding certificates; expenditure on persons in institutions, hostels, technical schools, or workshops, and monthly grants for the maintenance of the incapable blind. All this means enormous expense, and I trust that some regard to the Exchequer will be displayed in the answer of the Government to-night, remembering that the Exchequer has not a penny inside it except what is wrung from the pockets of the already overburdened taxpayers.
I will not say that there is not in this Bill some provision for the protection of the local authorities. It provides that no expenditure should be incurred by any local authority until the approval of the Board of Education has been obtained. Heaven help any public authority whose sole protector against undue expenditure is the Board of Education. I have never known the Board of Education to consider anything but education. It has never paid the slightest regard to the cost at which it is supplied, or seen whether the money is or is not expended economically and carefully in providing the kind of education required. Local authorities are also empowered, and no doubt will be required, to contribute towards the enlargement, equipment, and alteration of private institutions. My object in referring to these provisions is to show that even this Bill, which is the milder and the more moderate of the two, and is really a counter-blast to the Bill of the Labour party, provides for such unlimited expenditure that I very much doubt whether a man who has due regard for the pockets of the taxpayers should really support it. By those who have devoted their lives, to the blind with whom I am in communication, it is generally considered to be a fair Bill, and they are prepared to support it for a reason which I will give. It is provided at the end of the Bill that the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury shall pay to the local authority out of the public purse one-half of the expense incurred by the local authority. That is regarded as a salve in order to induce those to support the Bill who might otherwise be afraid of the expense. I do not think that that is satisfactory. After all, what is the difference in the long run? No doubt, as regards an individual authority, it matters whether half the money comes from the State or whether it is all paid out of the local rates. But, taking the country as a whole, it is merely a case of the taxpayer having two pockets, one called "rates" and the other "taxes," and if he has to pay the whole amount, it does not matter much whether it comes out of one pocket or the other.
Should I be in order in moving that the Question be now put?
10.0 P.M.
Disregarding that interruption, which was not made out of any regard whatsoever for the time of the House, I have discharged what I believe to be a duty. I am very anxious to see something done for the blind; but I do not believe that to the blind or any other suffering people, however great their suffering, or however much the House may sympathise with them, any good will come by affecting to consider that there is in what the hon. Member describes as "this rich country" any amount of money available regardless of all consideration for any such purpose as this; and I do not think that it will lead in the long run to the benefit of the blind. Wherever the rates are so high that you cannot get new industries to come into a city, that city must decline in prosperity, and the blind, like everybody else, will suffer. I trust that the Government will take into consideration the matter of cost, and not accede to the Resolution in the terms in which it is drawn.
I do not think that the House, after the discussion which preceded the speech to which we have just listened, can congratulate the hon. Member opposite (Sir J. D. Rees) on the contribution he has made to the Debate. He has maintained his reputation for being totally blind to every consideration, but the desire to make some point against what he considers extravagant expenditure for social purposes. He tells us that nobody regards the blind as people of inferior intelligence, and he knows that because he has read the poems of the blind Homer and the blind Milton. He may be able to read the products of those blind men of superior intelligence, but obviously he himself is blind to the signs of the times. What we say in this Debate is, that it is a question not at all of the inferiority of the intelligence of these people, but of the inferiority of their opportunities due to their affliction. When hon. Members take part in a Debate they ought to acquaint themselves with some of the facts with which the Debate is concerned. The hon. Member opposite has suggested that if we make blind people industrially self-supporting it will cost something like £60,000,000 a year.
I said nothing of the sort.
I may have understated it, but that was the sum that reached this side of the House. If that were so, it would mean that instead of 34,000, the number, in round figures, of the blind people in this country ascertained by means of the Census, there would be a blind population of nearly 750,000. These are some of the facts one would deduce from the so-called arguments which have been thrown out in this Debate by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and which vitiate all real discussion. I do not propose to say very much, because I think we are all anxious to know what position the Government are going to take up on this matter. There are three points put in this Resolution. One is that the present system of voluntary effort in aid of the blind people of this country does not adequately meet their necessities of the case. The hon. Member for North Kensington explained what was in the minds of everybody in this House; that the difficulty of all the institutions—he himself had one in remembrance when he spoke— was that they had tried as hard as ever they could to make a penny look like a pound. That is impossible. That is exactly what institutions such as that with which my hon. Friend is connected have to bear in mind in dealing with this subject.
The second point deals with the industrial side of the matter, and point number three with the maintenance of the incapable and infirm. With regard to the third point, surely, after all, in providing humane treatment for those people, we are only following out what we have begun. We passed measures last year in this Parliament to take mentally defective children out of the workhouse, because we felt that that was not the place where they should be brought up. We secured money from the Government for that very humane purpose. It does seem to one that those people who start out in life with such an enormous handicap ought legitimately to be taken from under the methods now adopted by the Poor Law and provided with some sort of comfort and repose in their old age. The other point is as to being able to support themselves industrially. I would like to point out to whoever is going to reply to this Motion, that, after all, the Government is not asked to take in hand a problem which will grow in their hands. It is a diminishing problem. We have been told to-night—perhaps it has not been said frequently enough—that the application of scientific methods of dealing with the blind, and the social measures which have been passed, have made it so much more possible that less people will become blind for you to be absolutely certain that the population of blind people will not grow. Therefore if you can do what has been suggested on the other side by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Fulham, who is the director of an institution which I know very well, and where I myself have quite recently given an address on Impressions of Parliament to the boys and girls who relished it to a very much greater extent than perhaps many other audiences, I say if you can give the blind the technical education which has been suggested, along with the medical and scientific precautions which are taken in their youth, the Government have got only to provide for a body of men who will gradually become less. They are, therefore, not likely to have imposed upon them a growing charge. I see on the Front Bench the late Postmaster-General, looking very much alive. We all recollect that one of his achievements at the Post Office was to get rid of "blind alley" occupations for boys. We want him and the other Members of the Government to provide, if I may put it in this phrase, "an alley of new occupations for the blind."
In cordially supporting this Resolution, may I make a proposal which I think will be received, because, as a matter of fact, it will not cost any money? If on a Resolution of this kind one can suggest a course which will in some way help the blind and not cost the State anything, I think it is one which should be accepted. The matter on the educational side has been very thoroughly discussed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Fulham and other Friends. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham is very doubtful as to the amount this Bill will cost. We need not fear that. When the Bill is before Committee the financial side will be very carefully gone into. I consider it is the duty of the State, so far as possible, to employ those who are afflicted in this way. Preference should be given to blind people in view of their handicap, for with every desire to work there are very few trades and professions open to them. My proposal is connected with the Army. Having been a soldier all my life, I do not perhaps speak without some knowledge. Wherever a regiment is quartered there is always a canteen. It is customary from time to time to provide music at the canteen to amuse and entertain the soldiers when they are off duty. I have myself known occasions when a blind man has been employed to play, and has been very well received; because many blind men play admirably, and certainly a piano can be extremely well played by blind men. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to put it to the military authorities or to the Secretary for War, that where music is provided in the canteens, whenever the opportunity arises, if a blind man who plays be available, that he should be employed. I think there should be a rule made giving a blind man preference. It is only a small thing, and my proposal would only employ a comparatively small number, but in a case of this sort, if you can put even a few men in the way of earning a livelihood, you are certainly doing them a good turn, and you are performing the object which this Resolution has in view. I shall be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman will not dismiss my suggestion without consideration. I am certain that if my proposal is adopted that some assistance will be given to a most deserving class, and though it may not be going a very great way, it will always be a move in the right direction of helping those who are least able to help themselves.
The discussion in which we are engaged to-night is, I think we must all agree, a very pleasant contrast to some of the very arid and profitless discussions we have been used to recently, and the almost unanimous approval of the House upon a question like this is a thing upon which we may fairly congratulate ourselves. It is quite true the hon. Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) has played a role he has played before, namely, that of a voice crying in the wilderness. I am happy to think his is a voice crying in the wilderness, and I do not think he will find many to support him. There were one or two points dealt with by the hon. Member which call for reply. He pointed out that already charitable institutions have collected vast sums for the assistance of the blind in this country. That is only too true, and if he thinks this Motion fails to recognise the good work done in the past by those institutions upon a voluntary basis, I assure him he is making one of the biggest mistakes he ever made. It is not that we do not recognise that much good work has been done. We feel sure that many people have for years past been doing a splendid work without money, without reward, without publicity, in caring for the blind. It is not that, but it is rather because we feel keenly that after all this expenditure of money and effort and self-sacrifice upon the part of those people, they have not accomplished the work they set out to do. If the hon. Member would read the Resolution, he will find that recognition of such good work is implied in its term. The Resolution is, "To call attention to the condition of the blind, and to move that the present system of voluntary effort does not adequately," etc. That carries on the face of it the fact, not that we refuse recognition or that we are grudging in our recognition of what has been done, but that, after all voluntary effort can do, there is a great void which they are unable to fill up, and therefore we come forward and say, because the blind suffer an affliction which ought to appeal to men in possession of their faculties, and because the State has some responsibility for the well-being of the people, it is the duty of the State to supplement, and, if I may add, to organise and co-ordinate the work already on foot and carried on so long and so well by voluntary institutions.
There was one peculiar feature of the hon. Gentleman's argument. He based certain arguments upon a reference made by my hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool in regard to the intellect of the blind. My hon. Friend said it was stated that people who are blind are deficient in intellect. I did not gather that was his own opinion, but that he thought it was held in certain quarters. The hon. Member for Nottingham comes along and says it is a ridiculous idea, but he fails to see this, that if it be true—and he believes it is true— that the blind are not deficient in intellect, we should see to it that no artificial obstacle or other obstacle should stand in the way of the training of that intellect which is not deficient. If they have obstacles in the way and handicaps to overcome which we who can see know nothing about, we ought to take a pleasure in removing those handicaps as soon as we possibly can in the very best way. I could not understand what the hon. Member meant with regard to blind beggars. Is it any the less respectable or is it a greater fault for a blind man to be a beggar than another man? Surely the hon. Gentleman either unwittingly or willingly misinterprets the whole attitude we take up, and totally misunderstands or misconstrues the reference made to that point. When my hon. Friend said it was a shame and a disgrace to civilisation he was not blaming the blind man, but civilisation and the social order which allows it and makes it possible. We ought to look at this question in a broad manner. The hon. Member for Fulham quoted Scripture, and I would like to draw the hon. Member for Nottingham's attention to a passage of Scripture which runs:
Money is not unlimited.
Yes, it is, when there is a South African War, but when it come to affording help to the needy, apparently owe are to deal with it in a very grudging spirit. I cannot quite understand the attitude of persons like the hon. Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees), who come here and assure us of their sympathy and yet habitually put every obstacle in the way of every effort to bring about an amelioration in social conditions. I have been in this House now five years, or thereabouts, and the hon. Member has been here, either on one side or the other, for almost the same time, and on any and every occasion when he has spoken he has always taken up the same attitude. He has always spoken in a spirit of hostility— as one in whom the milk of human kindness had utterly dried up, and as if he had no bowels of compassion left. I was only thinking to-night that if we thought, as the ancients thought, and the heart was the seat of the emotions, we should naturally come to the conclusion that his heart was a hard, dry, old stone. I do appeal to him to see if for once he cannot come into line with the spirit of the age in which he lives.
I backed the hon. Member's Bill last year.
Yes, I understand that the hon. Member did it because he thought there was a worse Bill coming on, a statement which I notice alarms the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, because he seems to think that it is impossible to have a worse Bill. I do hope that the Government are going to meet us, not with fair words and promises, but with a determination to do something in a really practical spirit to bring encouragement to the blind, to lend a hand to these people who have such a hard lot through life, and to see if we cannot offer them in the future some more hope than they have had in the past.
The Debate in which we have been engaged this evening is one of the most interesting to which I have ever listened in this House, and its tone, with the exception of a single dissentient speech, has been practically unanimous. I feel sure that we shall all unite in congratulating my hon. Friend who brought forward this motion upon the clearness and the force and the moderation with which he stated his case. It greatly impressed the House, and I am sure that he must feel satisfaction that he has done justice to a cause that was worthy of his best efforts. Hon. Gentlemen in different parts of the House have taken their share in drawing attention to this particular question from time to time during recent years, and I feel sure that the House as a whole will sympathise, and sympathise deeply, with those whom it is desired to benefit. Perhaps one of the greatest physical losses any man can possibly sustain is the loss of what is called the directive sense, and the sympathy of all of us will go out to those who have to live under such an affliction. My hon. Friend who brought forward this question told us that there were 34,000 blind persons in the United Kingdom. I am glad to be able to tell the House a fact which has not yet been brought to its notice: that the number, in proportion to the whole of the population, has shown a steady decrease ever since the year 1851. My hon. Friend said the question was one of urgency. I am glad, at any rate, to think that the urgency does not arise from the fact that the blind population of this country is increasing in proportion to the rest of the population. The improvement in that respect is even greater than it seems, because blindness is largely an incident of old age, and the proportion of the elderly among the population is increasing, so that the evil we have to deal with is fortunately a diminishing and not an increasing evil. I hope, however, I shall not be understood as advancing that in the least as a reason why we should take no action in the matter. On the contrary, I think it affords all the stronger reason why we should take action, because the matter is coming within more manageable proportions than it has been hitherto.
The age incidence of blindness is a matter of very considerable importance. In 1911, in England and Wales, the proportion per million of the male population under five years of age who were blind, was 130, and the House will notice that the proportion advances considerably at later ages. There were over 350 per million between the ages of twenty and twenty-five; 1,200 per million between forty-five and fifty-five; and no less than 8,000 per million between seventy-five and eighty-five. The infliction, therefore, is essentially in large measure an infliction of age. Women are less subject to blindness than men, except at a very advanced age. If we take the whole population, 760 out of every million males are blind; but the number amongst females is only a little over 700. As regards occupations, the difference between males and females is very striking. Out of the total number of blind persons of the age of ten years and upwards, 35 per cent. of the men were returned as occupied as against only 9 per cent. of the women, and these figures indicate that the need for finding occupation is much more acute in the case of the women than of the men. As regards the occupations of males and females they are chiefly engaged in willow, cane, and rush working, and basket-making. But there is this difference between the males and females in that respect. The females are almost entirely engaged in these avocations, while among the males there is a considerable variety of occupations. The hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) referred to the late Mr. Fawcett, and anyone who saw him at his work in the House of Commons and elsewhere could but wonder at the courage with which Mr. Fawcett maintained his position in this House, in his Department, in the Cabinet, and in the country, notwithstanding his affliction. I think that is a general characteristic of blind people. It is wonderful how they bear up under their blindness, and with what courage they overcome the infirmities which are incidental to their lot. There is one very important question with regard to blind people upon which I should like to say a few words, and that is the amount of their earnings. It is rather difficult to find any reliable figures on this matter. The Census does not help us at all in that respect, and the figures I have obtained show very considerable variations. But there can be no doubt whatever that, man for man, the blind earn considerably less than those who are able to see. Speaking generally, I may venture to say that a trained man of normal capacity and physique can support himself reasonably, but he cannot afford to marry, and I think most of us would regard that as a great misfortune.
A woman is, as a rule, unable to support herself sufficiently, and generally she requires her earnings to be supplemented in order to obtain adequate support. I will just try very briefly to describe the problem that lies before us, and I should like to answer the question, "What are we doing to meet it at the present time?" My hon. Friend the Mover allowed one expression to fall from him which I think must have been a slip on his part. In reference to the action which the Government have taken as to the disease known as ophthalmia neonatorum, the hon. Gentleman said that is the only thing the State has done for the blind. That statement does not cover the whole ground. I need only refer to some of the things done for the blind up to the present time. Parliament has passed the Elementary Education (Blind and Deaf Children) Act, 1893, and that provides for the compulsory education of the blind from the age of five to the age of sixteen. Under that Act accommodation is provided for 2,400 blind children at forty-one day and residential schools, and there are actually over 1,900 on the register of those schools. I am glad to be able to say that on the whole there is ample accommodation for blind children who need education, and there is no indication whatever that there is any considerable number of blind children in the various parts of the country who are not attending school. I think that the Board of Education is entitled to regard that with some satisfaction. There is one criticism which the hon. Member for Fulham made in his very eloquent speech with which I am very strongly disposed to agree. The cost in the special elementary day schools per head per annum is something like £19, and the cost in the residential schools runs from £30 to £50 a year, and he pointed out that the Grant the State gives for that at the present time is the sum of five guineas per child per annum. He represented that is inadequate, and certainly I am not disposed to disagree with him in that respect, as, indeed, is my hon. Friend (Mr. Trevelyan), who is beside me, and represents the Board of Education.
I am not at the present moment in a position to make any announcement upon the question, but I understand that my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education (Mr. J. A. Pease) has approached the Treasury upon this particular point, and that he hopes to make an important announcement, which, I trust, will be satisfactory, in the course of a few days. With regard to Secondary Education, here again I should be disposed to agree with the criticisms that have been made that the position is not altogether satisfactory. In reference to Secondary Education, we have to depend mainly on voluntary help, and it is due to the voluntary institutions to say that during the past ten years they have done their very best, within the limited means at their disposal, to improve and to increase workshop education in this country. The President of the Board of Education is considering the preparation of new Regulations which will enable his Department to recognise these institutions in cases where recognition has not yet been given, and I feel certain these institutions will find that extremely helpful to them, because it will necessarily mean that they will obtain a share of the State Grant. I should like to give one or two specimens of what the Home Office has done to abate the evil. Optic neuritis was in the past a very frequent feature of lead poisoning in pottery work, but the Regulations which have been made by the Home Office requiring the removal of dust and periodical medical examination of the workers have been so effective that at present practically no cases of this kind at all are reported. I have only just given a few instances of the kind of work which is being done and has been done by Government Departments in order to lessen the evil of blindness. My hon. Friend (Mr. Wardle) made a reference to the Poor Law, and he referred to the fact that there were 1,210 blind inmates of Poor Law institutions in London. But it is only due, I think, to the Poor Law authorities to say that two years ago an impartial Committee was appointed to consider this matter. They inquired into it very carefully, and they found that though there were 1,210 blind persons still remaining in London Poor Law institutions, 860 of them were over 60 years of age, and with regard to the remainder, there was always some good reason why they should be retained in those institutions—in some cases paralysis, or there are certain persons, of course, who are temperamentally unfit to be sent to voluntary institutions, and who are obliged consequently to be kept in the workhouse. With these exceptions, wherever the guardians were able to do so, they placed the inmates under their care in the charge of voluntary associations. Speaking of the Poor Law, it is impossible for me to avoid reference to the case of Bradford, which has, I think, set an admirable example to the whole country in the way in which it has dealt with blind persons who come under the Poor Law in that town.
I have already referred to blindness as being in a large measure a disease of old age, and I would direct the attention of the House to this, in view of my hon. Friend's statement that very little had been done by the State in this direction, that the grant of old age pensions is a matter of the utmost importance to the blind because such a large proportion of the blind are aged people over seventy years of age. The provision that has been made for them is not a large provision, but, at any rate, it is infinitely better than was their condition before the Old Age Pensions Act was passed. I would also draw the attention of the House to this, that the effect of the Insurance Act will probably enable many blind people to receive benefit. Many of them, of course, have been receiving sickness benefit already, but I trust it will enable a large number of them to receive permanent benefit after July next. The Mover has referred to the treatment of ophthalmia and to the action which has recently been taken by the Local Government Board in making it universally notifiable. I could give the House some interesting particulars in this respect, but I will confine myself to saying that it has been estimated that over 30 per cent. of the blindness among school children at the present time is due to this disease. The action that has already been taken by municipalities under the voluntary powers they at present possess has been conducive to the very best possible results. Very few cases, indeed, occur in which children are afflicted with blindness when proper precautions have been taken, and I trust the action of the Local Government Board will have the effect throughout the country of greatly lessening the suffering and loss of sight winch this disease causes at the present time. With regard to the work of the Board of Education in preventing defective eyesight, let me say that school inspection has done a great deal in this direction. Expert guidance in the use of the eyes in school work has been given. Spectacles have been provided, and I think the hon. Gentleman will agree that preventive work of this kind is the very best description of work which the Department can undertake. Private charity in the past has been poured out plentifully for the blind. You have a large number of charitable institutions in this country. They are doing excellent work in training, employing, and paying annuities to the blind. There are home-teaching societies, and aftercare unions. Fifty-nine societies in London and the provinces have been established with the object of seeking out the blind in their own homes and teaching them to read embossed type. I have mentioned the kind of work that is done by private charity, but anyone who has listened carefully to the Debate to-night will be prepared to say that, admirable as has been the work done by these charities, and splendid as has been the devoted labour of the men and women who have given themselves heart and soul to this voluntary work, there is still a great work to be done before the House can satisfy itself and the country that it is treating those afflicted people as the House would desire to see them treated. I have tried to give the House a view of what is being done for the blind by both public and private effort. I am not doing that to lead the House to any such conclusion that nothing more remains to be done. On the contrary, after this Debate, perhaps with one or two exceptions, I think that all Members of the House must be convinced that the time has arrived when a great step forward ought to be taken in this direction; but, at the same time, I am sure my hon. Friends will agree with me that it would be extremely unwise for the Government to move in this matter without making due and proper inquiries. My hon. Friend referred to a Bill which has been drafted, and which, I understand, is the outcome of the labours of a number of societies who are deeply interested in this question. So far as that Bill is concerned, the Government Departments have not had an opportunity in any way of considering the question, and what the Government proposes to do at the earliest possible moment and without loss of time—I can assure the House that we do not mean to allow the grass to grow under our feet in this respect—is to appoint an Interdepartmental Committee to consider the whole question. I think the necessity for an inquiry will be admitted on all hands. The Report of the Census for 1901 recommended that expert opinion should be taken as to what constitutes blindness. From the inquiries which had been made prior to 1911, it appears that there are many diverse opinions as to how blindness should be defined. A definition which had met with a certain amount of international acceptance, and the employment of which might therefore have conduced in some degree to international comparability, was possible, but the English experts on the subject considered it inadequate to the requirements. That shows that it is obviously necessary, in the first instance, to inquire as to what the definition is to be. Then it is necessary for us to collect statistics which will have to be obtained from a variety of sources, and it will not be altogether easy for us to obtain all the information that we require, For example, there are some charities which are intended exclusively for the benefit of the blind; there are other charities which are partially for the blind and partially for other purposes. Then we shall have to ascertain information with regard to the sufficiency of accommodation in the various institutions. The Committee will have to make some estimate of the effect of the Insurance Act upon its work, and will have to ascertain the number of old-age pensioners who are blind. That information is not at present available from the Census Returns. And there is also the important question whether more use could not be made, by means of correlation, or otherwise, of the funds which are now in the hands of the charities who at the present moment are doing their best to carry out their philanthropic duties in the best possible way.
Parliament will require to have all this information, and more information I have no doubt, upon this question. But I wish to make it perfectly clear that this inquiry is not to be instituted with a view to postponing the consideration of the question, but rather with a view to expediting it. It is an absolutely essential preliminary to any action being taken, and I feel sure that hon. Members in all parts of the House will agree as to the necessity of some such inquiry. The hon. Member for Blackburn put a question a few days ago to the Prime Minister as to whether an inquiry would be given. My right hon. Friend gave a very encouraging reply, and I am in a position here to-night to say that that inquiry will be set up at the earliest possible moment. I am bound to say on behalf of the Government that we cannot anticipate what the findings of the Committee will be, and we cannot at the present moment give any undertaking on the points which will come within the scope of the inquiry. But if this Resolution is passed, as I have not the slightest doubt it will be after the Debate, we shall interpret that Resolution as meaning that the time has arrived when the questions covered by the Resolution must be inquired into, and the results of that inquiry considered carefully and in a sympathetic spirit, with due regard to all public interests concerned. The late Mr. John Bright upon one occasion, when making a speech in connection with an institution for the blind, said:—
I should like to say that, inasmuch as in my own Division we have a blind institution where a large number of men are employed, I am sure they will be gratified by the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman. With regard to the fact that so much has been done by charity there is nothing that a great many of these men resent more strongly than the fact that they are dependent on charity, and I am sure the speech delivered to-night will be a source of very great comfort to them.
I do not know that I should have risen to-night had it not been for the attack made on my hon. Friend by hon. Members below the Gangway, and to a certain extent by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. My hon. Friend deserves the thanks of the country for having had the courage to get up and state what, after all, is the common-sense view of this matter. We have had the usual debate on a private Member's Motion. Hon. Members have got up and stated certain grievances and unhappy things that occur in this world. So long as the world lasts there will be these evils and grievances—even if the whole House is composed of Labour Members. These grievances and evils will always need remedying: many you will be unable to remedy! Having got up and made the general statement that blindness is a very dreadful thing, they proceeded to say that everybody who is blind is to be kept out of the pockets of somebody else—probably not themselves.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER withheld his assent and declined then to put that Question.
Debate resumed.
My hon. Friend is to be thanked for the courage with which he pointed out that with an expenditure of £200,000,000 so many things ought to be done but were very difficult to do. Hon. Members opposite have posed as philanthropists, and the right hon. Gentleman comes down and says how right we all are, that there has only been one discordant voice, and then says that he is going to set up a Committee to inquire into at least a dozen things, and that when that Committee has inquired into everything something else is going to be done. It is one of those proceedings which really throw dust into the eyes of the public. Nothing is meant to be done and nothing will be done.
Then you ought to be happy.
And hon. Members will be able to pose as being extremely philanthropic people who are going to do all sorts of things with somebody else's money.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved, "That, in the opinion of this House, the present system of voluntary effort in aid of the Blind People of this Country does not adequately meet their necessities, and that the State should make provision whereby capable Blind People might be made industrially self-supporting, and the incapable and infirm maintained in a proper and humane manner."
Supply
Postponed Proceeding resumed on Question, "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 186,400, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915."
It being after Eleven of the clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Thursday).
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Adjourned at Three minutes after Eleven o'clock.