House of Commons
Thursday, March 12, 1914
Private Business
Weymouth and Melcombe Regis Corporation Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next, at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.
Metropolitan and Great Northern Railway Companies Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Northwich Urban District Council Bill (by Order),
Norwich Electric Tramways Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
London Electric Railway Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Railway Bills (Group 1),
Sir Luke White reported from the Committee on Group 1 of Railway Bills: That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Tuesday next, at half-past Eleven of the clock; Report to lie upon the Table.
Cardiff Railway (Compounding of Tonnage Rates) Bill,
Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee on the Cardiff Railway Bill in the Session of 1913 be referred to the Committee on the Cardiff Railway (Compounding of Tonnage Rates) Bill.—[ Sir Luke White. ]
Chiswick Urban District Council Bill,
Copy presented of Report of the Attorney-General on the Bill [pursuant to Standing Order 175 a ]; referred to the Committee on the Bill.
London Electric Railway Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Railway Bills (Group 1),
Sir Luke White reported from the Committee on Group 1 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Com- mittee had adjourned till Tuesday next, at half-past Eleven of the clock.
Report to lie upon the Table,
Cardiff Railway (Compounding of Tonnage Rates) Bill,
Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee on the Cardiff Railway Bill in the Session of 1913 be referred to the Committee on the Cardiff Railway (Compounding of Tonnage Rates) Bill.—[ Sir Luke, White. ]
National Insurance Act (Regulations)
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 7th March, 1914, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee and the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, acting jointly, entitled the National Health Insurance (County of Zetland Pharmaceutical Committee) Regulations, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
INTERNATIONAL OPIUM CONFER ENCE (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 2, 1914)
Copy presented of Correspondence respecting the Second International Opium Conference held at The Hague, July, 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Colonial Reports (Annual)
Copy presented of Report, No. 794 (St. Lucia, Report for 1912–13) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Order [11th March] that the Paper relative thereto be printed, read, and discharged.
Rosyth (Housing)
Copy ordered, "of Report by Dr. J. R. Currie, Medical Officer of Health for the county of Fife, and relative excerpt from the Minutes of the meeting of the Public Health Committee of the Dunfermline District Committee of the Fife County Council, held on 22nd October, 1912."—[ Mr. M'Kinnon Wood. ]
Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 147.]
Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908
Copy presented of Order, dated 5th March, 1914, directing the Small Holdings Commissioners to carry into effect a Scheme for the provision of Small Holdings in the county of Lancaster [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Ancient Monuments (Scotland) (Royal Commission)
Copy presented of Fifth Report of the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments and Constructions of Scotland (Monuments and Constructions in Galloway. Vol. II. Stewartry of Kirkcudbright) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—
Copy of Statement of the Funds of the Museum of the late Sir John Soane on 5th January, 1914 [by Act].
Selection (Standing Committees)
Sir Daniel Goddard reported from the Committee of Selection that they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Mr. Charles Bathurst; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the Parliamentary Elections (Polling Day) Bill): Major Morrison-Bell.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee that they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B (in respect of the Importation of Plumage (Prohibition) Bill): Mr. Secretary McKenna and Mr. Robertson; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the said Bill): Mr. Hobhouse and Mr. Montagu.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee that they had added to Standing Committee B the following fifteen members (in respect of the Importation of Plumage (Prohibition) Bill): Mr. Alden, Mr. Astor, Sir Hildred Carlile, Sir Edwin Cornwall, Mr. Timothy Davies, Mr. Denniss, Mr. Esslemont, Major Guest, Mr. Hinds, Mr. Hodge, Mr. Molloy, Sir J. D. Rees, Mr. Rothschild, Sir Philip Sassoon, and Mr. O'Sullivan.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Standing Committees (Chair Men's Panel)
Mr. Stuart-Wortley reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Mr. Eugene Wason to act as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Importation of Plumage (Prohibition) Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.
Message from the Lords
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to incorporate the Wesleyan and General Assurance Society; and to provide for the management of its affairs and to confer further powers upon the society; and for other purposes," [Wesleyan and General Assurance Society Bill [ Lords. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Southern Persia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the control exercised on behalf of His Majesty's Government at present over Customs collections in Southern Persia is sufficient to make a lien upon such Customs a good and sufficient security for the repayment of the sum of £170,000 advanced between 1911 and 1913 from the British Exchequer?
His Majesty's Government have no reason to regard as unsatisfactory either the control over the Southern Customs exercised on their behalf or the security for the loan.
In view of the fact that the Battle of Kazerun took place only the other day, does that look as if there was such peace as would enable these arrangements to be carried out?
I do not think that the Battle of Kazerun affected the Southern border.
It is very near. I have been there myself.
I do not think it is near enough to affect the position at Bushire, which is always approachable from the sea.
Cabinda and San Thomé Plantations
asked if the right hon. Gentleman will inquire how many labourers were recently demanded and how many actually impressed for service on the plantations of Cabinda and San Thomé from the San Salvador district of Angola?
Before making inquiry it will, I think, be advisable to await the report, for which I have called, on all of the circumstances connected with the recent disturbances at San. Salvador, as they seem to have been partly connected with a demand for labour for San Thomé.
Central Africa and Asia Minor (Negotiations with Germany)
asked whether any negotiations are in progress or have taken place with Germany regarding Central Africa, or Asia Minor, or in respect of trade with America?
There have been no agreements made with Germany lately, nor are any negotiations now in progress, with regard to Central Africa or trade with America. As regards Asia Minor, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave him on the 17th ultimo. These negotiations are still in the same position.
New Hebrides
asked whether the native missionary Judah, in the New Hebrides, is still in prison; and, if so, will he use his best endeavours to obtain the release of this man?
Judah was sentenced to two months' imprisonment for extortion of money by the Anglo-French Joint Naval Commission on 18th December, 1913. I therefore presume that he has now been released.
asked what is the respective proportion of cases brought against British and French subjects before the Joint Court in the New Hebrides?
From 10th April, 1911, to 5th November, 1912, the accused in cases before the Joint Court were of French nationality in seventy-eight cases, and British in twelve. These figures do not include civil cases. Later statistics are not available.
Egypt (Charge against Mohib Pasha)
asked whether Mohib Pasha, now Minister of Agriculture in the Egyptian Government, is charged with having maladministered the funds of the municipality of Jautah, while he was governor of the province of Gharbia; whether an investigation is now being held; and whether the result of this investigation will be made public?
I have no information on the subject, but I will enquire.
Portugal (Entry of British-made Goods)
asked whether any arrangement has yet been made with Portugal which will enable British-made goods and, in particular, motor cars and parts thereof to enter that country on equal terms with similar manufactures of France and Germany?
Negotiations are still in progress with the Portuguese Government for the conclusion of a commercial treaty by which most-favoured-nation treatment will be granted to British goods on importation into Portugal, and His Majesty's Government are now making proposals with a view to expedite an arrangement.
Would not a small surcharge on port wine expedite arrangements?
Curiously enough the trouble has arisen from the fact that we do tax Portuguese wine at the present moment, and the Portuguese complain that we tax it unfairly and too much. It is precisely because this is a case in which we can bargain that we have got into this difficulty, and the Portuguese are not satisfied with the bargain.
Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise the bargaining advantages of having import duties?
I was giving this as an instance where we have a power without interfering with our fiscal system or resorting to Tariff Reform or any method of that kind, and it has proved entirely ineffective.
Land Purchase (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether any action has been recently taken by the Estates Commissioners with the object of acquiring the lands of Kilbarry, county Meath, from the Marchioness of Winchester; and whether the difference about the price which arose over previous negotiations could be bridged by paying the maximum bonus under the Act of 1909?
As the hon. Member has already been informed the Estates Commissioners have notified the owners the sum they would be prepared to advance for the purchase of these lands if formal proceedings for sale were instituted under the Land Purchase Acts. The owners are not prepared to sell at such price, and have not instituted proceedings for sale, and, in the circumstances, the Commissioners have not taken any further action in the matter. The reply to the concluding portion of the question is in the negative.
asked at what date the first steps were taken under the Land Act of 1909 to acquire the estate of Lord Clanricarde; at what date judgment was given in favour of the Congested Districts Board; whether the fact of an appeal having been allowed implies that this landlord's resistance may be successful; assuming otherwise, how long is it possible for him, by dilatory proceedings, to prevent the Board acquiring the land; the amount of law costs incurred in this matter to the present time; the estimated further costs on appeal; and, in view of the demonstrated inadequacy of existing compulsory powers, whether he will insert in the promised Land Bill compulsory provisions operative in such cases and applicable to the whole of Ireland?
Negotiations with Lord Clanricarde for the purchase of his estate were opened by the Congested Districts Board in March, 1910. Legal proceedings were taken in the Court of Chancery by Lord Clanricarde in 1912 to test the validity of the action of the Board, when the Master of the Rolls decided against the Board. The Board appealed against this decision, and the Court of Appeal, on the 8th December, 1913, gave judgment in their favour. Notice of appeal to the House of Lords was delivered by Lord Clanricarde on the 5th instant, but I cannot at present say what the date of the hearing of the appeal will be. Every similar litigant has a right of appeal, and no such inference as that suggested can be drawn from the present proceedings. The costs incurred up to the present by both parties is about £3,000, and the costs of the appeal to the House of Lords will probably be £2,000 more. There is no reason to suppose that the powers to acquire estates compulsorily in congested districts counties under the Act of 1909 are inadequate. Under Clause 12 of the Irish Land Bill of last Session it is proposed to extend these powers to non-congested counties.
Is there any such thing as the promised Irish Land Bill? Have the Government given any undertaking to go on with it?
There certainly is a Land Bill.
Where?
Where all Bills are before they become Acts of Parliament, and I certainly hope that it will be proceeded with this Session.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to expedite the hearing of this case?
No, Sir. I will do what I can, but other suitors certainly have their rights.
asked how many of the evicted tenants, including representatives of deceased evicted tenants, noted by the Estates Commissioners as coming within the Statutes providing relief for them, and whose holdings are untenanted, still remain unprovided for; whether the Riggs farm on the Smythe estate, Collinstown,. Westmeath, is one of these; whether the Commissioners have made an offer to the owner for that farm for the purpose of reinstatement; whether the offer has been refused; and, seeing that voluntary methods have failed in ten years to give relief in such cases, whether he will insert in the promised Land Bill an operative compulsory provision covering such cases?
The Estates Commissioners have provisionally noted for consideration in the allotment of untenanted lands acquired by them fifty-seven evicted tenants or their representatives whose former holdings are stated to be untenanted, and who have not yet been reinstated in their former holdings or provided with other holdings elsewhere. I have dealt with the case of Mrs. Riggs in reply to numerous questions to which I would refer the hon. Member. The answer to the last paragraph of the question is in the negative.
asked the Chief Secretary, having regard to the number of landlords who, after offering their estates for sale to the Estates Commissioners and accepting interest in lieu of rent, now inform the tenants that they will not complete on the prospect of getting higher prices under the forthcoming Land Bill, and, if disappointed in this, will resume their right to recover the old rents for the past six years and for the future; whether he will provide in the forthcoming Bill against this anticipated increase of price beyond the sum for which the Commissioners now find the holdings to be security, against the resumption of a power voluntarily surrendered, and against the use of the threat to resume as a means of obtaining money from the tenants in addition to the price settled by the Commissioners?
Interest in lieu of rent in the case of an estate sold to the Estates Commissioners is only payable from the date of the agreement to purchase, and when such an agreement has been entered into the owner cannot refuse to complete the sale unless the Commissioners consent. In one case, however, that of the Talbot estate, to which the hon. Member probably refers, the owners voluntarily accepted interest in lieu of rent on the prices at which the tenants were prepared to purchase, pending negotiations for the sale of the estate, to the Commissioners, but this interest was not collected by the Land Commission, who were not parties to the arrangement, and who cannot interfere with any proceedings which the owners may take to recover the rents due to them. Whether the owners wait for fresh legislation or not, the purchase money will be fixed by the Estates Commissioners if the estate is sold to them. The case in question is not one of an owner withdrawing from a formal agreement for sale, and I do not consider that legislation of the nature referred to in the latter part of the question is required.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Estates Commissioners consider the conduct set out in the question legitimate; and, if they do not, what action they take in reference to it?
It is legitimate because it is legal.
asked if a considerable number of summonses for possession of their holdings have been served on the Clanricarde tenantry, in the division of South Galway, by the Marquess of Clanricarde; and if the appeal to the House of Lords by Lord Clanricarde, in the late decision pronounced against him by the Court of Appeal in Ireland, has yet been received and when the appeal is likely to be heard; and, pending the hearing of the appeal before the House of Lords, will the Government decline to allow the forces of the Crown to be used for the purpose of carrying out more evictions on this estate?
I understand that proceedings are being taken on behalf of Lord Clanricarde for possession of certain holdings on his estate. As I have just stated, notice of appeal to the House of Lords by Lord Clanricarde was delivered on the 5th instant, but I cannot yet say when the appeal will be heard. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
In view of the fact that a special Act of Parliament was passed in this House a few years ago for the express purpose of reinstating evicted tenants in their holdings or of otherwise providing for them, at enormous cost to the people of this country, does the right hon. Gentleman not think that a stay should be put upon the power of Lord Clanricarde to evict any more tenants pending the decision of the House of Lords?
I have no power to stay proceedings in an eviction.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a Bill passed its Second Reading in the House of Commons for the expropriation of this nobleman?
All that is very well, but it does not alter my legal position.
Does my right hon. Friend say that the forces of the Crown will be used for carrying out convictions?
The hon. Member knows perfectly well that the Executive has no power whatever to prevent the sheriff calling in what power he needs.
asked under what section of what Act pasture holdings restricted to the use of the land for pasture by yearly tenants, such as those on the estate of Lady Chapman, county Meath, come within the provisions of the Land Purchase Acts?
The provisions of the Land Purchase Acts enable yearly tenants occupying lands under contracts of tenantry to purchase their holdings. The hon. Member will find the expression "tenant" defined in Section 57 of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881, and Section 26 of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1885.
asked the number of pasture holdings held by yearly tenants on the estate of Lady Chapman, county Meath; the total acreage of such holdings; and whether, under existing agreements by which they are held, it is within the power of the owner to resume possession of the holdings at the end of each yearly letting?
The Estates Commissioners are making further inquiries as regards the tenure under which the tenants referred to hold their lands, and are not at present in a position to furnish the information asked for in the question.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, under the Irish Land Act of 1909, it was enacted that tenancies created after a certain date were excluded by the Estates Commissioners from the provisions of the Land Purchase Acts; and, if so, whether he will state why pasture holdings on the estate of Lady Chapman, in which no permanent tenancy exists at the present time, are proposed to be brought within the provisions of the Land Purchase Acts?
Section 16 of the Irish Land Act, 1909, provide that no advance shall be made in respect of tenancies created after the 15th September, 1909. The Commissioners are making further inquiries as regards the tenure under which the tenants referred to hold their lands.
Will the Estates Commissioners, in connection with this matter, ascertain the area of land held by these men elsewhere?
There is no reason why they should not do so if they can.
asked whether the Estates Commissioners will permit the Parliamentary representatives of the claimants for portion of the pasture holdings on the estate of Lady Chapman, counties Meath and Westmeath, or their legal representatives, to inspect the nature of the agreements between' the yearly users of pasture holdings and the owner?
It would be entirely contrary to the practice of the Land Commission to comply with the hon. Member's request.
asked whether the inspector from the Estates Commissioners who visited the estate of Lady Chapman, counties Meath and Westmeath, made any inquiries as to the number of families that once resided on the estate and by their labours gave fertility to the soil; whether any of them or their descendants are still living in the immediate neighbourhood as landless men; and, if so, will their claim to a share of the pasture holdings or untenanted land be considered?
The reply to the first paragraph of the question is in the negative. The Estates Commissioners are not in a position to reply to the second paragraph of the question. The persons referred to in the last paragraph do not appear to come within the classes mentioned in Section 17 of the Irish Land Act, 1909.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the total area of land on Lady Chapman's estate which the occupants are restricted by agreement from cultivating; the total area held by the same occupants elsewhere, apart from the holdings so restricted; whether he will quote for the House the clause of the agreements restricting industry on this congested estate; and whether he will afford the House an opportunity of discussing this important matter before any thing is done that would lock up this land from relieving congestion to which Parliament intended such land to be devoted?
As I have just stated, the Estates Commissioners are making further inquiries as to the tenure of the holdings on this estate, and until I have received their report I can make no further statement on the subject.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the tenants on the Gumbleton estate, near Coachford, county Cork, signed their purchase agreements in November, 1906; whether they have now been paying interest for over seven years; adding in effect considerably to the number of years' purchase; can he explain the reason of the delay in having the holdings vested in the tenants; and, seeing they are very few in number, will the Estates Commissioners now expedite matters?
The estate of Frances Gumbleton and others, county Cork, is the subject of a sale direct by the vendor to the tenants under the Irish Land Act, 1903, and purchase agreements were lodged with the Estates Commissioners in February, 1907. The estate is being dealt with in order of priority, and the Commissioners hope to be in a position to vest the holdings in the purchasing tenants at an early date.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if there is a number of estates before the Estates Commissioners where the tenants cannot be declared the purchasers of their holdings owing to the fact that the solicitors having carriage of sale have neglected to prove title although they have been requested by the Commissioners to do so; and whether, having regard to the fact that the purchasing tenants are thus penalised by being obliged to continue paying interest in lieu of their half-yearly annuities, he will direct the Commissioners to take steps to have the sales completed forthwith?
Before holdings can be vested in purchasing tenants under the Land Purchase Acts, vendors have to satisfy the Land Commission as to their powers to sell under such Acts. This is sometimes a matter of considerable difficulty, and takes time. The Estates Commissioners take the necessary steps to see that their requirements are complied with as rapidly as practicable, and where title cannot be shown, the proceedings for sale will have to be dismissed.
Is it not a fact that the purchase money of twenty-four estates is lying idle with the Estates Commissioners owing to the fact that the solicitors for the vendors have not proved title, and that proceedings were initiated in or about the year 1906?
If I had power to expedite solicitors, I would exercise it.
Can the right hon. Gentleman do nothing with it at all?
No, Sir, I cannot.
Evicted Tenants (County Leitrim)
asked whether the Estates Commissioners would consider the claim of Stephen M'Padden, an evicted tenant on the Delan estate, Carbeg, Corry, county Lei trim, for a grant to enable him to rebuild his house and stock his farm?
The Estates Commissioners have already informed M'Padden that they are not prepared to sanction a grant in his case, and they are not prepared to depart from this decision.
Old Age Pensions
asked the Chief Secretary whether he has received from several pension committees in county Kerry resolutions complaining of the methods by which pension officers estimate the means of applicants and of the number of deserving cases thus excluded; and whether he has considered the proposal to legislate giving the right to appeal to the County Court on the question of means alone to each applicant?
I am informed that resolutions of this tenour have been received by the Board of Customs and Excise from pension sub-committees in county Kerry. With regard to the second part of the question, I have no reason to think that the rights of claimants are not adequately safeguarded by the existing statutory machinery.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the county of Kerry these pension officers make estimates of the means of applicants which are totally wrong?
I am aware that there was that feeling against pension officers.
asked the Chief Secretary whether he has received several resolutions from the Ardfert old age pensions committee and the Kerry County Committee requesting him to hold a public inquiry into the administration of the Old Age Pensions Act by the pension officers in that district; and whether, considering the public dissatisfaction which prevails he will take steps to have the inquiry held?
I would refer the hon. Member to my predecessor's answer to his; question of the 29th January, 1913.
Seeing that this question has created very considerable dissatisfaction in the county of Kerry, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the justice of having an inquiry into the matter?
The hon. Member made the same appeal to my predecessor. I looked at the papers this morning. He considered it very carefully, and told the hon. Member that he did not think that there was any necessity for any inquiry of the kind suggested.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Kerry County Committee and the Kerry County Council have again strongly requested that an inquiry should be held, and that there are special reasons for doing so?
I am sorry to tell the hon. Member that I do not think that the aggrieved people have made out a case.
Employment of Children Act, 1903
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in view of the facts disclosed by the Report of the committee of inquiry into the conditions of employment in the linen and other making-up trades of the North of Ireland, he will take steps to recommend to the local authorities in the North of Ireland to frame without further delay by-laws under the Employment of Children Act, 1903?
As I have already informed the hon. Member, a circular was issued in July last to local authorities pointing out their powers under the Employment of Children Act, 1903, but so far no by-laws have been submitted for confirmation. The initiative in this matter rests with the local authorities, and no useful purpose would be served by further interference on the part of the Irish Government, but I hope the publicity given by this question will have some good effect.
National Schools (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will state what amounts have been voted and spent in the last two financial years for medical inspection in Irish national schools; and whether, seeing the failure of the scheme, he has any other proposals to secure for Irish children the advantages of medical inspection such as is given in England and Scotland?
The Commissioners of National Education inform me that the amount voted for the purposes of dental inspection in schools for the year 1912–13 was £7,500, of which only £263 2s. 6d. was spent, the balance being returned to the Exchequer. For 1913–14 a sum of £5,000 was voted, but the amount expended cannot yet be determined. The conditions of the Grant are that for every £1 contributed by the State, £1 should be raised from local sources. There has been a large and constant increase in the number of schemes approved during 1913–14, and I see no reason to believe that the present arrangement has failed. There is no power, without legislation, to transfer to the county councils the administration of the funds provided for this purpose.
Ballyhack Harbour
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he is in a position to state whether the plans and specification for the improvement of Ballyhack Harbour have yet been completed, and, if so, when he will have tenders for the work advertised; whether he is aware that it is over two years since the county council agreed to pay half the cost of this work; and whether, having regard to the immense loss inflicted on the fishermen of the district for want of proper harbourage, he will expedite this work so as to have it completed during the coming summer?
The Wexford County Council, on the 7th October last, approved of the plan for this work, subject to the arrangement of certain details by the county surveyor and the Department's engineer. The arrangement referred to has been made, and the work was commenced last week. It will be carried out with the least possible delay.
Nyasaland (King's African Rifles)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government proposes to maintain the King's African Rifles on the present footing, and to debit the total cost, as at present, to the Nyasaland Protectorate?
It is proposed to maintain the King's African Rifles on the present footing, but the hon. Member is under a complete misapprehension in thinking that the total cost is debited to Nyasaland. Each Protectorate pays for its own contingent.
asked the Secretary for the Colonies if he can give any details of the fight on the borders of British East Africa in which Lieutenant Lloyd-Jones, King's African Rifles, was severely wounded; and why no proper medical attendance was forthcoming for this officer?
So far as the actual lighting is concerned, I do not think that I can add anything to the account which appeared in the Press on the 7th of this month. With regard to the second part of the Noble Lord's question, I have satisfied myself that everything was done which it was possible to do, having regard to the remoteness and inaccessibility of the locality in which the incident occurred. I am glad to have this opportunity of referring to the devotion of Mr. Parvati, the Indian sub-assistant surgeon at Marsabit, who, on being informed of the casualty, made a forced march to Lieutenant Lloyd-Jones, accomplishing it in four days. This was a most remarkable and creditable performance as his camel transport broke down, and he managed to cover the 100 miles of desert with only one camel and with practically no food or water.
St. Kitts (Sugar Industry)
asked whether, notwithstanding the fact that a Grant of £11,000 has been made from the Development Fund to the Sugar Beet Growers' Society, Limited, a body working in cooperation with the owners of the Cantley sugar factory in Norfolk, permission has been refused to the Government of St. Kitts to guarantee the capital of a sugar factory in that island?
The answer to the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. I am informed that the Grant in question was made solely for work of organisation, instruction, and book-keeping, and that it stands on a footing quite different from that of any proposal to give Government assistance to a sugar factory.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Cantley factory is the only sugar factory in this district, and that the benefit of this Grant must therefore accrue to that factory?
I must ask for notice of that question.
British East Africa (Kilindini Whari)
asked when it is intended to carry out the provision of proper wharfage accommodation at Kilindini, British East Africa, long since promised?
This is one of the objects of the East African Loans Bill, and when it comes on for Second Reading I shall be prepared to make a statement on the subject.
Is it not the case that when a sum of money was previously voted for the Protectorate a promise was given that this wharfage accommodation should be provided?
Yes, Sir; and the money is now being used for the purpose for which it was voted.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it is not being so used?
The Noble Lord does not know what we have been doing below the water line.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no steamers can get alongside the wharf, and that the condition of congestion of goods is as great as ever?
Cavan and Leitrim Light Railway
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Cavan and Leitrim Light Railway Company have complied with the Rail way Companies Accounts and Returns Act of 1911; and, if so, when have their accounts and returns been submitted?
The accounts and returns of this company were received by the Board of Trade on the 2nd February.
District Railway (Workmen's Tickets)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of cheap workmen's tickets that were issued at Barking, East Ham, Upton Park, Plaistow, West Ham, Bow Road, and Stepney stations on the District Railway from Sunday, 1st March, to Saturday, 7th March, inclusive?
I have asked the railway companies concerned if they can furnish this information.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the District Railway Company intend increasing their train service between Wimbledon to the Mansion House to 35 trains in each direction; if he is aware that the extra train service between all the stations from Barking and the Mansion House is more pressing than the train service from the west; and if he intends urging the District Rail way Company to put extra workmen's trains running from the east daily?
I have asked the railway companies concerned for their observations in this matter, and I will communicate with my hon. Friend on receipt of their replies.
Union Life Assurance Company of Canada
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, since the Union Life Assurance Company of Canada obtained £157,000 capital in England in 1910, any meeting of the British share holders was duly summoned; whether this represented the savings of 745 English investors; and whether his Department possesses any power to protect the public against such methods of flotation as were practised by the present company?
The Union Life Assurance Company of Canada was incorporated in Canada and carried on business there, and not in this country. The Board of Trade, therefore, have no official information relating to the company. A company which is not incorporated in this country is not required to hold meetings of its shareholders here, and I have no knowledge as to whether any meeting of the British shareholders was in fact held, or as to the number of those shareholders or the amount of capital subscribed by them.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his Department exercises any power of control over or examination of the position of insurance companies, as is provided by the Canadian Government; and, seeing that certain directors of the Union Life Assurance Company are being prosecuted in Canada for their misrepresentations of fact in securing the investment of £157,000 of British money fraudulently, will he state whether those parties in London who assisted in the preparation of a misleading prospectus will be made amenable to justice?
The powers of the Board of Trade relating to assurance companies are limited to those conferred upon them by the Assurance Companies Act, 1909, which does not apply to companies which are neither registered nor carry on business in this country. I have no information as to the nature of any criminal proceedings in Canada against any directors of the Union Life Assurance Company of Canada, and I am not aware of any grounds on which such proceedings could be instituted against any person in this country.
If it is shown that persons in this country assisted in the preparation of the fraudulent prospectus, cannot the Board of Trade take any steps?
I am afraid that this being a Canadian company, in the event of proceedings being taken, I have no jurisdiction.
If it is true that proceedings have been instituted in Canada against the promoters, can the right hon. Gentleman do nothing to assist them?
Unfortunately at the moment the Board of Trade has no jurisdiction.
Have you no jurisdiction in England?
It is a Canadian company, and the Board of Trade has no jurisdiction over it.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that £157,000 of British money has been invested and lost in this company?
Yes; £157,000 of British money has been invested by British investors in a Canadian assurance company over which the Board of Trade has no control whatever.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Union Life Assurance Company of Canada, owing to the state of its finances at the time and the need for procuring additional capital, offered in 1910 £200,000 worth of shares for subscription in England; whether a prospectus was prepared and issued, as a result of which £157,000 was invested in the stock of this company by English investors; whether he is aware that, consequent upon investigation into the affairs of this company by Mr. A. M. de Beck, editor-in-chief of the "Canadian News," assisted by a committee of the shareholders, it was established that the whole of the British capital was used for purposes other than those mentioned in the prospectus; was the Union Life Assurance Company registered in England and was a list of its shareholders obtainable at Somerset House; has this company gone into liquidation in Canada and has a prosecution of certain of its directors, including Mr. H. P. Evans and Mr. H. Symons, K.C., been ordered; whether the Board of Trade can take any steps to protect the interests of the British investors of this company; and, if so, will he disclose their nature?
I have seen a copy of the prospectus of the Union Life Assurance Company of Canada, which was issued in this country in 1910, offering 10,000 shares of 100 dollars each for subscription, but I have no information as to the amount subscribed by British investors. I understand from statements in the Press that the company has gone into liquidation in Canada, but I have no information as to the result of any investigation, or as to any proceedings which may be pending. The company was not registered in England, and no list of its shareholders was obtainable at Somerset House. On my present information I am not aware that there are any steps which can be taken by the Board of Trade to assist the British investors.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, in connection with the Union Life Assurance Company of Canada, in which £157,000 of British money was invested and lost, a body known as the London Advisory Board was formed; whether this was constituted of Viscount Maitland, William Schooling, a writer on insurance, and F. W. Kerr, a company director; can he state what the functions of this board were; what supervision they exercised over the affairs of the company; whether they held any meetings and kept any minutes; if so, whether these are now available; and whether the Board of Trade can inquire into the conduct of this board and the representations it made from time to time to deceive the shareholders of the Union Life Assurance Company?
It appears from a copy of a prospectus of the Union Life Assurance Company of Canada, which I have seen, that there was an advisory board for the United Kingdom, consisting of the persons mentioned in the hon. Member's question. The Board of Trade have no information as to the functions or proceedings of this advisory board, and they have no jurisdiction to conduct an investigation into its conduct.
Government of Ireland Bill
Statement by Prime Minister
asked the Prime Minister whether, in the event of a poll for against exclusion or inclusion in the Government of Ireland Act resulting in a tie in any county, he will say on whom will devolve the duty of giving a casting vote?
The following questions on the same subject also appeared upon the Paper:—
(1) Whether it is the intention of the Government to make any suggestion to Parliament relative to Customs, Excise, and the Post Office that would alter the proposals contained in the Government of Ireland Bill; (2) whether, in the event of any alteration of the representation of Ireland in the Irish House of Commons being made necessary by the exclusion of any county from the Government of Ireland Bill, a suggestion to provide for the adequate representation of the Protestant minority in the Irish House of Commons will have the support of the Government; (3) whether, in the event of any alteration in the representation of Ireland in the Irish Senate being made necessary by the exclusion of any county from the Government of Ireland Bill, the scheme of election to the Senate, as set out in Part III. of the First Schedule, will be altered so as to provide for election by the method of proportional representation on a less cumbrous and more workable basis; and (4) whether, in view of the scanty information with regard to the Government proposals in connection with the Government of Ireland Bill contained in the Return issued on the 10th instant, and to the short interval which may elapse before the resumption and conclusion of the Second Reading of the Government of Ireland Bill, he will cause a Return giving such proposals in ampler details to be immediately issued?
(1) Whether, in view of the fact that under his scheme of settlement of the Home Rule question the Unionist counties will all be excluded, there will be likely to remain a single Unionist representative in the Dublin Parliament to voice the sentiments of the minority of the voters; and whether, under these circumstances, he proposes to introduce, so far as the Lower House is concerned, any additional safeguards for their benefit; (2) how, in preparing the requisition to the Lord Lieutenant which has to be signed by a substantial body of the electors, he proposes to ensure secrecy as regards the identity of the signatories in order to avoid the persecution which will follow publicity and to ensure the secrecy of the Ballot Act, which, so far as the signatories are concerned, would be destroyed by their names and wishes becoming known; and (3) whether any administrative difficulties are likely to arise under his amended scheme for the government of Ireland by having a county and a borough which it contains under different Governments; and whether he will state the reason for preferring this form of separate treatment of county and borough for voting purposes?
asked the Prime Minister whether he will issue a White Paper showing the Amendments that would be required in the Government of Ireland Bill if the proposals adumbrated in Parliamentary Paper, No. 143, were adopted by Parliament?
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether his suggestions for amendment of the Government of Ireland Bill include the abandonment of the provisions for setting up a separate Irish Customs; or whether it is suggested that the jurisdiction of the Irish Customs is to be limited to such counties as may not become excluded; and (2) whether his suggestions for amendment of the Government of Ireland Bill include the abandonment of the provisions for setting up a separate postal service for Ireland; or whether it is suggested that each of the excluded counties is to have its own postal service or remain under the Irish or British postal service?
asked the Prime Minister when the text of the proposed alterations in the provisions of the Government of Ireland Bill will be laid upon the Table of the House?
asked whether in the event of the proposals adumbrated in Return No. 143 being adopted by Parliament the transferred sum would be reduced and, if so, by how much annually, on the supposition that the counties of Armagh, Antrim, Down, and Londonderry and the city of Belfast elected for exclusion from the operation of the Government of Ireland Bill?
asked the Prime Minister when he intends to put on the Paper the wording of the new Amendments to the Government of Ireland Bill?
asked the basis on which the adjustments of revenue and expenditure of any excluded county will be fixed under the Government proposals of the Government of Ireland Bill?
asked the Prime Minister whether it is essential to his scheme for the Amendment of the Government of Ireland Bill that the counties and county boroughs of Ulster, which vote for the exclusion, should be adjoining geographically; and will he say how he would propose to deal with a county borough as regards government generally, and the questions of the control of Customs and the Post Office in particular, which voted for retention under the Government of Ireland Bill, while the surrounding county areas voted for exclusion?
asked the Prime Minister, whether, in the event of the proposals adumbrated in Return No. 143 with regard to the future government of Ireland becoming Law, the control of elementary education in any excluded area will be vested in a board chosen on a denominational basis; and what security he proposes to afford for the protection of the religious educational rights of any Catholic minority in such an area?
asked (1) whether any Poor Law unions or other areas for local government purposes are situated in two counties; how it is intended under his suggestions for amendment of the Government of Ireland Bill to deal with such areas if one of such counties becomes excluded and the other remains included within the jurisdiction of the Irish Parliament; and (2) whether, under his suggestions for the amendment of the Government of Ireland Bill, the £500,000 subsidy to be given to the Irish Parliament will be reduced in proportion to the area excluded; and, if not, what is the fixed basis referred to on page 4 of the White Paper No. 143 as that to be adopted for the necessary financial adjustments?
In regard to these questions which all deal with the Government proposals in regard to the Government of Ireland Bill and to provisions consequential upon, or supplementary to those which have been already explained, I shall be obliged if I may postpone my answer till Monday, when I will make a general statement on the subject.
Meantime, cannot the right hon. Gentleman give the House something better than this truncated, eviscerated and emasculated stump?
Questions
Collieries (Foreign Leases)
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) the acreage of the coal lands in Kent which have been acquired or leased by French, Belgian, and German companies and syndicates, respectively; (2) the acreage of the colliery in South Yorkshire recently acquired by a German company company, and the estimated amount of steam coal contained in the colliery; and (3) the acreage of the collieries in South Wales owned and controlled by German companies, and the estimated amount of steam coal contained in those collieries?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer these questions of the hon. Member, and I will, answer the three questions together. The Home Office has no official information on the points raised in the questions, and I am not sure that it will be possible to obtain it, but I will make such inquiries as are possible.
Will not this sort of thing increase when the channel tunnel is made?
The hon. Member had better address his question to his neighbour (Mr. Fell).
Postal Service (Carnarvonshire)
asked the Post-master-General whether he has yet been able to arrange for the collection of letters at Pennart, Carnarvonshire, after 10 a.m.; and whether, in view of the fact that a postman passes within two miles on his round in the evening, he can provide an evening collection by arranging that the letters be handed to the postman by the auxiliary postman, as is done with the morning delivery?
I am having inquiry made, and I will communicate with the hon. Member.
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the expressed desire of the Department to give extended postal and telephone facilities to farmers, he can now see his way to provide a daily delivery of letters to all those resident within a radius of two miles of the Garn Dolbenmaen, Carnarvonshire, post office?
I am having inquiry made, and will communicate with the hon. Member.
Postage Rates (France and England)
asked the Postmaster-General if he has any official information to the effect that Sir John Henniker-Heaton is prepared to come forward with personal guarantees of a satisfactory nature against any loss either Government may sustain in the event of penny postage being initiated between this country and France; and whether any announcement can be made on the subject?
I am aware that in April, 1910, Sir John Henniker-Heaton, during the course of an interview between my predecessor and a deputation of Members of this House, offered to provide the interest on the British revenue sacrificed by the introduction of penny postage with France, and in a letter received recently he repeats his statement that certain gentlemen are prepared to give guarantees against any loss of revenue. The Government cannot accept an offer from private individuals to defray any part of the loss to the revenue caused by a reduction in rates of postage.
Why is it that the Post Office never do anything until they are forced?
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General why the telephone call rate between Horrabridge and Tavistock, Devon, has been raised from 2d. to 5d.; and if he will take steps to have the charge reduced to its former level?
This is not a recent change. It was made as far back as 1907 when Horrabridge and Yelverton were transferred from the Tavistock telephone area to that of Plymouth to meet the wishes of the local subscribers. It is not possible under present conditions to revert to the original arrangement, but the whole question of the fees for calls between neighbouring places is now under consideration with a view to the removal of anomalies.
Post Office Employés (Old Age Pensions and Insurance Acts)
asked what increase of pay, if any, has been given to sub-postmasters and Post Office employé generally for the increased responsibility and work entailed on them under the Old Age Pensions and Insurance Acts?
In the case of scale payment sub-postmasters the remuneration for old age pension work is at the rate of 40s. per 1,000 old age pension orders paid and 1s. for each accepted claim in the preparation of which the sub-postmaster has rendered assistance to the pensioner. The rates of remuneration for national insurance work are stated in the reply given to a question on the subject on the 12th February. Increases of work at the counters of post offices which are staffed with officers employed directly by the State are met by the employment of additional staff or the employment of the existing staff on overtime, not by increases in the rate of pay of the officers employed.
Postal Salaried Sub-Offices (Glasgow)
asked whether it is the practice in Glasgow to promote postmen to sub-postmasterships; and, if so, how many postmen from the head office there have been promoted to such posts during the year 1913, and since the Liberal Government came into power in 1906?
The hon. Member is presumably referring to salaried sub-offices and not to scale payment sub-offices, which are usually conducted in shops and to which are appointed residents in the various localities. Postmen, with other Post Office servants, are eligible for appointment to salaried sub-postmasterships. These appointments, like head postmaster-ships, are advertised in the Post Office Circular, and the best qualified candidates are selected. The competition is extremely keen, and it is but seldom that a postman would prove to be the best candidate. I will have inquiry made as regards the latter part of the hon. Member's question and will acquaint him with the result.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that general dissatisfaction exists among the postmen with regard to these appointments, and that when notices are exhibited in the post offices as a matter of fact practically no postman ever secures one of these posts?
As I have explained to my hon. Friend, there is competition for these posts, and we must take the best man. If a postman happens to be the best man, we gladly take him, but if he happens to be the second best, we are not entitled to do so.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what class of officials in the Post Office usually get the preference over the postmen who are not the best men?
If my hon. Friend will put that question on the Paper, I will give him an answer, but I cannot undertake to answer it off-hand.
Julia Decies (Appeal Against Sentence)
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the nature of the evidence for the defence given at the trial of Julia Decies, at the Central Criminal Court, on Wednesday, 4th March; if he is aware that the jury, in finding the prisoner guilty, recommended her to mercy, and that Mr. Justice Darling awarded seven years' penal servitude; and whether, in view of the health of the prisoner and the whole of the circumstances of her offence, he can see his way to order a remission of the sentence?
The convict has applied to the Court of Criminal Appeal for leave to appeal against her sentence.
When does the right hon. Gentleman expect the appeal will be heard?
I am afraid I cannot say.
I will repeat the question next Thursday.
Quarries and Metalliferous Mines (Royal Commission)
asked the Home Secretary whether the Royal Commission on Quarries and Metalliferous Mines, which was appointed some years ago, have agreed on their Report, and when the same will be presented?
I am informed that the Commission have not yet finally settled their Report, but expect to have it ready in the course of next month.
Street Traffic (Metropolis)
asked the Home Secretary whether, under the new by-law for regulating slow traffic in London, he can add to the by-law that the roads should be sanded up to the kerbs, with a view to assisting horses drawing heavy loads; and if the reason that heavy traffic Keeps to the middle of the roads is that the drivers find it better going?
I am advised that the requirement suggested in the first part of the question would not come within the by-law making powers. I am aware that the structure of certain roads and their condition in certain states of the weather sometimes offer an inducement to drivers of heavy vehicles to keep in the middle; but the requirement of the by-law is qualified by the words "so far as practicable," and the experience of places where this rule is already in operation shows that it can generally be enforced with great advantage to the traffic.
Is it not a fact that the sides of the road are kept watered while the middle is not, and that the heavy traffic goes in the middle of the road on account of the sides being watered?
I can only judge by experience in those places where the rule has already been in force, and we find that very good consequences have followed.
Established Church (Wales) Bill
asked the Home Secretary whether, under the Established Church (Wales) Bill, the Church Representative Body will be legally bound, except in so far as existing interests are affected, to apply a private benefaction vested in the Welsh Commissioners under Clause 4 of the Established Church (Wales) Bill, and transferred by them to the Church Representative Body under Clause 8 of that Bill, in accordance with the wishes of the benefactor and for the benefit of the parish to which it was given?
I am not in a position to give any authoritative decisions as to questions of the interpretation of the Bill when it becomes law, but I am advised that private benefactions will have to be applied (except in so far as existing interests are affected), as nearly as possible, to the same purposes as those to which they are now applicable; but, of course, if, under the constitution adopted by the Welsh Church after disestablishment, the parochial system were abandoned, new considerations would arise and the cy près doctrine would apply.
Under the terms of the Bill is not an absolute discretion given to the Church Representative Body to use the endowments exactly as they please—I mean the private benefactions that are left and handed over?
I have given the best answer that I am advised I am able to give on the point put by the hon. Member. I am afraid I cannot add anything to it.
Coal Mines Act Amendment Bill
asked the Home Secretary when his promised Coal Mines Act Amendment Bill is likely to be submitted to the House?
I hope, very shortly.
Coal Mines Inspectors
asked the Home Secretary whether he is prepared to increase the number of coal mine inspectors; and, if so, when, and to what extent?
I am afraid I cannot add anything to the statement which I made on this subject in the Debate on the Address last month. Large additions have been made during the last three years to the staff of inspectors, which has been increased from forty-two to ninety, and time must be allowed for the assimilation of so large a number of new inspectors, though I have little doubt that further additions will be required in the future.
Railway Rates (Carriage of Milk)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the recent modifications of the rates charged by the railway companies for the carriage of milk have, in several cases, involved a further increase in the rates previously charged by the companies, and that the revised rates are still in some cases 7 and 8 per cent. above those charged prior to July last; and whether the Board is satisfied with the revised tariff; and, if not, what action does he propose to take in the matter?
I do not follow the hon. Member's statement that the recent modifications in the rates on milk have in several cases involved a further increase. Perhaps he will be good enough to furnish me with instances. On the general question, I can only repeat what I have already stated in answer to questions on this subject, that it is open to the traders to require the railway companies to justify the increases before the Railway and Canal Commission, and that I understand steps are already being taken with this object. There is no requirement that the Board of Trade should be satisfied with the tariff.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Railway and Canal Commission is a wholly useless tribunal for the disorganised producers?
Town and County Councils (Qualification)
asked whether in the Bill which the Government have promised to introduce, making residence a qualification for eligibility to town and to county councils in England, they propose to include Scotland; or whether they propose to introduce a separate measure for Scotland, as was done in 1907?
The reply to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is in the negative, and to the second part in the affirmative.
Suffragist Outrages
asked whether the state of mind of the female convict Richardson, released under the Temporary Discharge of Prisoners Bill, but at present in custody on another charge, has ever been inquired into by competent medical experts?
I have consulted competent medical experts, who saw the prisoner last October, and who advise me that she was not then of unsound mind.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it is his intention to release the female convict Richardson; and if, before doing so, he will consider the danger to the public if this woman is at large?
There is no present ground for releasing the prisoner. The danger to the public is never left out of consideration in any such case.
Having regard to the fact that this woman appears to be a criminal of the most dangerous nature, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possible danger to the public before he releases her because of one of these so-called "hunger strikes?"
If it were only a so-called hunger strike I should certainly hope not to have to release her. The annoyance and the danger to the public will certainly be borne in mind.
Did the right hon. Gentleman notice a statement openly mocking the inefficiency of the law?
Yes, I observed that Acts of Parliament bind me as well as everybody else.
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury a question, of which I have given him private notice: Whether he will, at an early date, afford an opportunity for debate as to the protective measures to be taken, in view of recent events, with regard to the art treasures of the nation?
The matter is under consideration, and I cannot make any statement at present, but I hope to do so at the earliest opportunity.
I must respectfully ask the right hon. Gentleman, in making these investigations, if he would personally inquire why it is that a woman recently apprehended, who is known to be a desperate person, was admitted without, any surveillance or search of any kind into the National Gallery, and why the muff which she carried was not searched by the attendants at the door?
Employment of Children Act
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that a man was recently summoned at the Midhurst Petty Sessions for employing two children, aged twelve and thirteen, contrary to Regulations made under the Employment of Children Act; that the employment of the children consisted in their being taught, with the consent of their parents, out of school hours, how to milk cows; that they were so instructed only occasionally and received no payment for it; that it was admitted by the prosecution that they attended school regularly and were clean, tidy, and respectable children; that the offence for which they were summoned occurred on a school holiday; and whether he will bring in a Bill to so amend the Act as to prevent such cases arising in future?
I have no information about the case to which the Noble Lord refers, but I am making inquiries.
Solicitors (Pay, Allowances, and Pensions)
asked how much is provided in this year's Estimates, 1914–15, for pay, allowances, and pensions to solicitors?
It would be impossible to obtain the information desired by the hon. Member without an amount of labour which would not be justified by the result.
Undeveloped Land Duty
asked, in view of the fact that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue keep a record of the applications for exemption from Undeveloped Land Duty under Section 17 (3) ( b ) of the Finance Act, 1910, on the ground that the land consists of woodlands, parks, and gardens, reasonable access to which is enjoyed by the public or by the inhabitants of the locality, and of the fact that the Commissioners keep a record of their decisions upon such applications, how many such applications have been received by the Commissioners; and how many of such applications for exemption have been granted and how many have been refused?
While, as I informed the hon. Member on the 4th instant, such records exist, they are not assembled, and so are not available for statistical purposes. If the hon. Member requires information with regard to any particular case, I will try to obtain it for him.
Cheap Trains Act
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the estimated amount of Railway Passenger Duty that has been remitted to the various railway companies who have a terminus in London from 1905 up to 1913, under the Cheap Trains Act, 1883; and if he is aware that an answer was given to a similar question on 21st May, 1906?
The receipts from Railway Passenger Duty paid by London railway companies have declined from £276,000 in 1905 to £221,000 in 1913. But the Board of Customs and Excise do not see how it would be possible to estimate the proportions in which this decrease, and the decreases in the intervening years, should be attributed to the Operation of the Cheap Trains Act, 1883, or to other conditions. The answer given in 1906, to which the hon. Member refers, was subject to the same qualification.
Elementary School Teachers (Pensions)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether any increase has lately been made in teachers' pensions; and, if so, how far this change will be retrospective?
By the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1912, the rates of superannuation allowance payable to elementary school teachers on retiring at the age of sixty-five were increased from the rate at which they formerly stood of 10s. for each year of service to the rate of £1 for each year of service, and increases were also made in the rates of allowance payable to teachers who retire before the age of sixty-five in consequence of being disabled. The increases were retrospective to this extent, that the Act, which was passed on the 7th August, 1912, was applied to all the teachers who attained the age of sixty-five years on or after the 1st April, 1912, or applied for a disablement allowance on or after that date. No change has been made in the pensions since the passing of that Act.
Is anything going to be done in regard to teachers who retired before 1911 who are now sixty-five years of age and upwards?
Nothing has been settled in regard to that. A Committee is inquiring into the possibility of it.
Minor Legal Appointments (Scotland)
asked the Lord Advocate whether he proposes to introduce and try to pass into law this Session the Bills dealing respectively with the clerks of the Court of Session and with the sheriff-clerks-depute, promised by his predecessor; whether any further action is to be taken by him giving effect to the Report of the Committee on Minor Legal Appointments in Scotland; and, if so, when such action is to be taken?
It is my intention to introduce legislation giving effect to the recommendation of the Committee referred to by my hon. and learned Friend, but I regret that it is not possible for me at present to say when an opportunity of doing so may occur.
Payment of Fines (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he can see his way to take steps to give more time for the payment of fines in Scotland?
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is about to introduce legislation dealing with this subject.
National Insurance Act
Panel Chemists (Payment of Accounts)
asked the hon. Member for St. George' s-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commissioners, whether the panel chemists in the area of the London Insurance Committee have been paid their accounts in full for 1913?
My right hon. Friend is informed that no settlement has as yet been effected, but that advances have been made to the extent of over 80 per cent. of the bills presented, which have not all been checked.
May we take it for granted that the accounts will be paid in full finally?
I cannot say what the result will be until the accounts have been checked.
Approved Societies (Book-Keeping)
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commissioners, whether a circular letter has been issued by the Inspector of Audit, Edinburgh, asking certain approved societies to agree to hand over their book-keeping to a firm of accountants; and, if so, whether he has sanctioned the issue of such a document, which is practically canvassing for accountants and involves interference with the arrangements of societies?
The letter referred to was sent to the approved societies concerned in order to give assistance, for which there has been a strong demand from societies. Among the suggestions made in the letter were the formation of an association for the part-time employment of any accountants whom the societies might see fit to consult.
Drug Fund
asked whether there is a deficiency in the drug fund in the area of the Birmingham Insurance Committee; and whether the Birmingham panel chemists will be paid in full?
I will refer the hon. Member to my reply to him of yesterday, in which I indicated that it is not possible at the present stage to make any statement as to the amounts which will ultimately be available for payment to the chemists in any particular area.
Solvency of Insurance Societies
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he will communicate to the House the Report of the Chief Actuary to the Government upon the solvency of insurance societies?
I have nothing to add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 2nd instant in answer to a question by the right hon. Member for the Bootle Division.
Independent Order of Rechabites
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that two Nottingham tents of the Independent Order of Rechabites have refused to work the National Insurance Act, the cost of working which during the first twelve months was £30 over the amount allowed for administration expenses, and the district committees refusing to allow the use of the voluntary money for making up the difference; and whether the Government proposes to take any and, if so, what action in the matter?
My right hon. Friend has communicated with the society referred to, who state that the hon. Member has been misinformed, and that the State insurance of members of the tents named is being properly administered. No complaint has been received by the Commission either as to the administration of benefits or as to any internal arrangements between the tents and the district in question.
Royal Navy
Rosyth Dockyard
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what has been the result of the visit of the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty and Sir Francis Hopwood to Rosyth?
On Monday last the Additional Civil Lord of the Admiralty and myself, accompanied by officials of the Scottish Local Government Board and the local medical officer of health, made an inspection of the lodging houses in and about Inverkeithing, and of the hut colony erected on the works at Rosyth by the contractor. On Tuesday last I made a similar inspection of the lodging houses of Dunfermline, and, with the full approval of the contractor, interviewed a number of men engaged upon the works. Last night I furnished my right hon. Friend with a detailed statement of my investigations, and it is our intention immediately to discuss the matter with other members of the Board, the contractor, and the departmental officers concerned.
Will the right hon. Gentleman communicate to the House the substance of this detailed statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty?
An opportunity will offer for making a statement when the Motion is made that Mr. Speaker leave the Chair on the Navy Estimates.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not tell us whether it was satisfactory or not?
It is very difficult within the limits of an answer.
Can he not say "yes" or "no"?
Will there not be some opportunity for hon. Members to consider the statement before it is made from the Treasury Bench? We shall have no opportunity of checking it.
There are public documents—there is the report of Dr. Wilson—and I understand they will be brought up to date. I will make inquiries about the publication of Dr. Currie's report.
When will that be?
That is a matter for the Scottish Local Government Board.
Did the right hon. Gentleman visit the consumptive men who were in one of the bunks at the Rosyth mansions?
No, but I have heard about one man. He had been removed before I went there.
Ought not the Papers to be laid in common fairness to all parties in the House before the Motion is made that Mr. Speaker leave the Chair?
I have already communicated with the Scottish Local Government Board with regard to Dr. Currie's report. That will be laid.
Immediately?
I hope so.
Will the right hon. Gentleman at the same time tell us about the railway facilities?
I did that a long time ago. Arrangements have been made for workmen's trains between Dunfermline and the works. I am not aware as to cheap trains the other way. I will make inquiries.
Questions
Cream (Boracic Acid)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he can make a definite Regulation under Section 4 of the Sale of Food and Drugs Act, 1899, fixing the limit of boracic acid to be allowed to be used in preserving cream at 35 grains to the pound, or .5 per cent., which was the amount recommended by the Departmental Committee (1901) on Preservatives for Use in Butter?
As at present advised, I am not satisfied that it is desirable in the public interest to make a Regulation defining the quantity of boric acid which may be added to cream as a preservative. I am considering the matter in consultation with my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware and does he agree that he has complete power in this matter under Section 4 of the Sale of Food and Drugs Act?
I should not like, in reply to a question of which I have not received notice, to exactly define the powers of the Board. Everything I did in the matter I did in consultation with my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the supply of cream to the public and the dairy industry is practically in a state of chaos at present owing to the vague and indefinite nature of the Regulations issued last year by the Local Government Board?
Infectious Diseases (Notification Acts)
asked the President of the Local Government Board how many local authorities have requested the Board to apply the provisions of the Infectious Diseases (Notification) Acts to the first case of measles and whooping cough occurring in a household during the last twelve months; and how many local authorities have drawn the attention of the Local Government Board to the great difficulty experienced in dealing with "carriers" of diphtheria, and have asked the Board to permit legislation to enable sanitary authorities to treat the "carriers" as persons suffering from an infectious disease?
In answer to the first part of the question, the Devon County Council in December last passed a resolution requesting the Board to apply the provisions of the Notification Acts to the first case of measles and whooping cough occurring in a household. No other local authority has made any such application in the last twelve months. Legislation would be required to enable me to give effect to the proposal. In answer to the second part of the question, four or five sanitary authorities have recently drawn the Board's attention to various difficulties in dealing with "carriers" of diphtheria, and the Devon County Council have suggested that legislation should be promoted to enable sanitary authorities to treat "carriers" as persons suffering from infectious disease.
House Accommodation, Rochdale
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the recent reports published by the medical officer of health of Rochdale, in which it is stated that there are 5,482 not-through houses in Rochdale, of which 3,470 are back-to-back; whether he is aware that Manchester has got rid of over 5,000 back-to-back houses in the last six years, and Salford has reduced the number of such houses from 2,525 to 73; if he can give any reason why similar action has not been taken at Rochdale; and if the Local Government Board propose to take any steps in the matter?
My right hon. Friend is aware of the facts stated in the question. He is in communication with the Town Council of Rochdale on the subject, and is awaiting their reply.
Land under Arable Cultivation
asked what was the area of land under arable cultivation in Great Britain in 1900, 1905, 1910, and 1913, respectively?
The area of land under arable cultivation in Great Britain, as returned in June of each year, was as follows:—
asked what was the area of land under wheat in Great Britain in 1900, 1905, 1910 and 1913, respectively?
The area of land under wheat in Great Britain, as returned in June of each year, was as follows:—
Foot-and-Mouth Disease
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), whether he is aware that there has been no case of foot-and-mouth disease in the county of Sligo or, for that matter, in the province of Connaught for thirty years; and whether, seeing that steamers ply bi-weekly between Sligo and Glasgow, he will consider the advisability of having that port opened for the exportation of fat and store cattle as, at least, between Connaught and Scotland?
also asked the Vice-President whether he is aware that there has not been a case of foot-and-mouth disease in the north-east counties of Ireland during the past thirty-five years or thereabouts; that being so, will he say why an embargo has been placed against the port of Belfast, which is the principal outlet from these counties; whether steps will immediately be taken to remove all restrictions against this port, more especially as all cattle shipped at Belfast are subject to a searching examination as to their condition of health by a properly qualified veterinary surgeon prior to shipment; and will he take immediate steps to have this embargo removed without delay?
There is no record of any case of foot-and-mouth disease in the north-east counties of Ireland or in the province of Connaught for about thirty years past. The recent circumstances regarding outbreaks of the disease among Irish animals have, however, led to the temporary prohibition by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries of the landing of ruminants and swine in Great Britain from any Irish port. The question of the modification of this embargo so far as Belfast and Sligo are concerned, is one for decision by that Board. It is understood the matter will be considered when the general situation as to the disease in Ireland has become clearer.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that the embargo will be removed from the Belfast port?
I cannot at the moment, but I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that the Board of Agriculture quite recognise that a case has been made for Belfast, and are quite alive to the importance of removing the embargo.
May we conclude that Londonderry will be made free at the same time?
The hon. Member must conclude nothing except that I will do my best to remove the embargo as soon as possible.
They are on the same footing, are they not?
Yes, I think so, substantially.
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) when he intends to let Scottish sheep into Ireland?
It is not practicable to announce a definite date at present. The matter will be kept in view and will be reconsidered when the general position in regard to foot-and-mouth disease has become more assured.
What on earth is the reason for preventing clean stock going into the infected area? If it had been the other way we might have understood it.
I hope the Noble Lord will wait. If we had had the experience, we have had in dealing with this disease he would have known how treacherous and insidious it is.
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) on what date the investigation re the outbreak of foot-and-mouth, disease at Birkenhead took place; on what date did the representative of the English Board of Agriculture submit his draft report to the representative of the Irish Department; and when was it approved by him and returned for circulation?
The investigation at Birkenhead took place on 26th February. The draft report referred to was received by the Department's representative on the 9th instant, but previous to this date communications regarding the points of investigation were passing between the officers concerned. On the 11th instant the draft report was returned with observations. The terms of the report are not yet finally settled.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he can now state the result of the conference recently held to inquire into the cause of the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease at Birkenhead?
The chief veterinary officer of the Board received a letter this morning from the chief veterinary inspector of the Irish Department, calling attention to some new evidence bearing on the subject of the inquiry at Birkenhead, and suggesting certain variations in the report. I regret that this will necessitate some delay in the issue of the report.
If agreement between the two Departments is found to be impossible, will the two right hon. Gentlemen arrange that separate reports shall be published on this matter by each Department?
Yes, I think that will be done; but I hope it will be possible for the two Departments to come to a unanimous decision.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his; attention has been directed to allegations that foot-and-mouth disease has been brought into the district of Redditch, Worcester, from Ireland, and that corrupt connivance prevails between Irish cattle owners, dealers, and officials of the Irish Department of Agriculture in passing infected beasts from the Irish ports; will he say whether it is now established that the Redditch outbreak was due to cattle brought from Birkenhead, where they contracted the disease, and that the disease did not come to Birkenhead from Ireland; and whether he has any information showing that corrupt connivance prevails to pass infected cattle from the Irish ports?
I have no knowledge of the allegations or of the corrupt connivance to which the hon. Member refers. In the opinion of the Board's advisers, the cattle which developed foot-and-mouth disease at Redditch were probably infected at Birkenhead. I would rather not express an opinion as to the sources from which infection came to Birkenhead until I have seen the report of the inquiry which has been made into that question.
If I send the right hon. Gentleman a copy of the "Times and Mirror," in which these allegations appear, will he say then that he does not believe one word of the statements made in that Tory rag?
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the case of foot-and-mouth disease recently discovered at Conway, and to the consequent Closing Order covering an area of fifteen miles from that borough; whether he is aware that only one animal was found to be affected; and whether, in view of the inconvenience and loss occasioned by the continuance of the Order, he can make any statement as to the date upon which it will be withdrawn?
The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative. An Order has been made and comes into operation to-day modifying the restrictions in the outer zone of the scheduled area, approximately ten to fifteen miles from the infected place. I hope that in a week's time it will be possible to grant similar relief to the next five-mile zone, and, if all goes well, at the end of four weeks from the date of the outbreak, to withdraw all restrictions except from the immediate vicinity of the infected premises.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has traced the source of the disease in the case of this isolated pig?
I am afraid I cannot state the source.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has considered the advisability of admitting the importation of Irish fat stock from areas in Ireland unaffected by foot-and-mouth disease, for example, from the province of Connaught; and whether he can hold out any hope of such a partial alleviation of the hardship imposed upon consumers by the present prohibition of importation?
In view of the latest reports from Ireland I regret that I cannot at present adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion. I am anxious to alleviate as soon as possible the hardship caused by the exclusion of Irish live stock from Great Britain, but I must remind my hon. Friend that an epidemic of foot-and-mouth disease in Great Britain, which might result from premature withdrawal of the restrictions, would cause much greater hardship.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether the officials of the Board have the power to inspect and verify the source of origin of the fodder and litter supplied to cattle at quarantine stations; and, if so, whether they have exercised that power and satisfied the Board that no possibility of infection can have arisen from these sources?
The officers of the Board have power to inspect the fodder and litter supplied, and in fact do so, but they have no power to require proof of origin, and, if they had, they would have no means of verifying the answers which they might receive. The Board rely for protection upon the Order made under the Diseases of Animals Acts, the effect of which is to prohibit the importation of hay or straw except from countries known to be free from foot-and-mouth disease. If, as I presume, the hon. Member refers in the last part of the question to the recent outbreaks at Birkenhead, I can say that the Board are satisfied beyond all doubt that the infection was not introduced by means of fodder or litter.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what country on the Continent is free from foot-and-mouth disease?
The hon. Member ought to give notice of that question.
I wish to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture, Ireland, a question of which I have given him private notice, namely: Whether any cases of foot-and-mouth disease have been discovered in the city or county of Kilkenny; and, if not, will he explain why the monthly fair held in Kilkenny City yesterday was broken up and; the removal of cattle prohibited after sales had taken place, and the animals were being removed by rail and road from the city; why, if it was necessary as a precautionary measure to prohibit the fair being held, due notice was not given to the public to prevent the importation of cattle, and thereby avoid the loss and inconvenience which resulted from the belated action of the Department; and whether he proposes to place any further restrictions on Kilkenny City or County?
I greatly regret that any inconvenience was caused to the farmers of Kilkenny yesterday by the prohibition. The action of the Department will be best understood when I say what the circumstances are in regard to this outbreak. First of all, in the county of Kildare the disease has disappeared. There has been no case for five weeks, and the county of Kildare is absolutely free. I am glad to say that in the great county of Cork, which has been ravaged by the disease, for some weeks now, it seems to have abated, and that there has been only one case in the last few days in the city itself—in one of the by streets. But the gravity of the situation is intensified by what has taken place. It appears that a cattle dealer went to Cork and bought a large number of calves in this yard where the disease originated. He brought these calves to Thurles, in the county of Tipperary. He sold several and kept the remainder. Those that were kept showed symptoms of the disease a few days afterwards. The Department was notified—and. I should say that I cannot speak too highly of the willingness of the people in the country to co-operate with us—and inspectors were sent, the disease was-confirmed and the cattle were slaughtered. But the question arose: where did those that were sold go to? We have had to scour five Irish counties for these animals. We have had to add largely to the staff of the Department to do so, and we have been able to get, I think, at the whole of them now. They were spread over five counties. Some of them were traced to Kilkenny, and if the notice of the prohibition of the fair was short, we could not have given it earlier, and we could not have allowed cattle, which were likely to have been in contact with these calves, to go through the country. We have put a large staff to operate now in these five counties. I do not say that there is any disease in these five counties, but there may be disease there any moment. When you look at the facts I think that you will see that we are face to face with one of the most dangerous situations that it is possible to conceive in regard to this mischief, and I must ask hon. Members from Ireland to give us, at all events as far as they are able, a free hand in endeavouring to stamp out this disease.
Have the Department ever made any inquiry by experts as to whether the French system of curing rather than slaughtering should be put into operation in Ireland?
It is well known that on the Continent no effort apart from isolation is made to stop this disease, but to adopt that method in Ireland would be to wreck the whole Irish cattle trade.
Portuguese West Africa (Arrest of Mr. Bowskill)
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a question of which I have given him private notice, namely: Whether information has been received that the Rev. Mr. Bowskill is to be tried at San Salvador by military officials, and, if so, whether he will direct the British Consul to be present, or arrange with the Portuguese Government for the trial to be transferred to Noqui or Loanda, where the British Consul can be present?
Having received information that Mr. Bowskill was to be tried by military officials at San Salvador, I sent instructions yesterday evening to His Majesty's Minister at Lisbon to represent immediately to the Portuguese Government that, in my opinion, it was absolutely essential that a British Consular officer should be present at the trial; also that, if possible, the venue should be changed, and that the trial should take place before a properly constituted civil tribunal. His Majesty's Minister was also instructed to urge the Portuguese Government to send immediate orders to this effect to the Governor of the Congo direct as well as to the Governor-General of Angola, as communications between Loanda and Noqui appear to be uncertain.
House of Commons (Seating Accommodation for Members)
I desire, Mr. Speaker, to ask you the following question: Whether your attention has been called to the fact that on Monday, when the Second Reading of the Government of Ireland Bill, which was not Departmental business, was to be taken, the seat under the Gallery, right behind your chair, was filled with officials of Departments, while Members of this House were unable to find seats and had to stand about the gangways or in the galleries; and, if so, whether you will say that officials of Departments are not entitled to use that seat when no Departmental business is to be transacted, thus preventing Members of the House from getting seats?
When that seat was taken, away from Members and was handed over for the use of officials in the different Departments, it was clearly understood that when there was no business which compelled their attendance, it was to be open to Members. I am obliged to the hon. Member for having called attention to the fact that the Gallery was full on Monday last. I have made inquiries as to who was there on that occasion. It appears that the three Secretaries of the Prime Minister were there, one Secretary of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Irish Parliamentary counsel, and there were three officials from the Iris Office. I must leave it to hon. Members to judge as to whether they think that these officials were properly there or not. I do not know why the hon. Member says that the Government of Ireland Bill was not Departmental business. It seems to me that, as far as the Irish officials were concerned, and certainly as far as one or two of the private secretaries were concerned, they had every right to be there. I exercise some energy in repressing the desire of private' secretaries to come and listen to our Debates, but I am not always successful.
May I ask whether it was not an occasion upon which these Gentlemen were not likely to be consulted?
That is a very difficult question to answer. It was impossible to foresee how far the Debate would go, or what lines it would take. The Debate did, I think, exceed the limits which most people had expected to be reached on that occasion, and it might easily have gone further, and there might have been a necessity for some of those officials to be present.
Is it a fact that before the change was made an additional Gallery at the end of the House was placed at the disposal of Members, thereby leaving the accommodation available for Members precisely the same as it was before?
That is within the recollection of most Members of the House. I think that I am also correct in stating that there was a general understanding that if there was room in this Gallery, it was to be free for Members, because it is a more convenient place for listening and for other purposes.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what business will be taken next week?
On Monday we shall take the Report of the Civil Service (Vote on Account).
On Tuesday we shall move the Speaker out of the Chair on the Navy Estimates.
On Wednesday the discussion will be continued.
On Thursday we hope to take the Navy Estimates in Committee of Supply.
Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman that there will not be any discussion on the announcement which he contemplates making with regard to Home Rule on Monday?
No; I think not.
WESLEYAN AND GENERAL ASSURANCE SOCIETY BILL [Lords]
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Assistants to Pharmacists (Qualification) Bill
Order for Second Reading upon Friday, 3rd April, read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.
Shops Act (1911) Amendment Bill
Order for Second Reading To-morrow read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.
Bills Presented
Factory and Workshop (Cotton Cloth Factories) Bill
"To abolish the infusion of steam and other forms of artificial humidity in Cotton Cloth Factories." Presented by Mr. ALBERT SMITH; supported by Mr. Gill, Mr. Snowden, Mr. Sutton, Mr. Stephen Walsh, Mr. Hodge, Mr. Clynes, Mr. Tyson Wilson, and Mr. Wardle; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 116.]
Cotton Factories (Fines Abolition) Bill
"To abolish the system of fining in Cotton Factories." Presented by Mr. ALBERT SMITH; supported by Mr. Snowden. Mr. Gill, Mr. Wardle, Mr. Tyson Wilson, Mr. Hodge, Mr. Stephen Walsh, Mr. Clynes, and Mr. Sutton; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 117.]
Supply. [Second Allotted Day.]
Army Estimates, 1914–15
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. Whitley in the Chair.]
Motion made and Question proposed, "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 186,400, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915."
4.0 P.M.
I rise in accordance with the promise made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War (Colonel Seely) on Tuesday last, that I should give some account of the work performed by the Committee, over which I had the honour to preside last year, as to the Special Reserve. As the House will remember, although the Special Reserve in many respects represents the old Militia, yet it is with very great distinctions. The old Militia was in point of fact a real Territorial Force, and it was charged with the function of Home defence. That Home defence has been undertaken by the establishment of the Territorial Force, and the members of the Special Reserve have undertaken different obligations from those which were undertaken by the old Militia. Therefore, there is this very great distinction, namely, that the Special Reserve undertakes much wider obligations than ever the old Militia undertook. Perhaps when that is borne in mind, the Committee will see, although it may be regrettable—it is regrettable undoubtedly—that larger numbers have not come forward, yet it is not so surprising when we reflect upon the weighty obligation to serve in any part of the world on occasions when they might be called upon. When we came to consider the condition of the Special Reserve, it was obvious that steps should be taken to try and bring the numbers more nearly up to establishment. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State readily concurred when I suggested to him that there was in both Houses of Parliament a great wealth of experience among Noble Lords and among hon. and gallant Gentlemen in this House on which we might safely draw, and we felt that Noble Lords and hon. and gallant Gentlemen would not be backward in coming forward to our assistance. I should like to be allowed to express my acknowledgment to my hon. Friends, and also to Lord Salisbury in the other House, for the kindness with which hey readily concurred in that view and came to our assistance, and I venture to hope that the work which we have done, though it may have proved irksome to those engaged in it, will prove to be useful.
Perhaps the first thing I ought to do is to inform the Committee of the work which we undertook to perform, and what it was we set out to do. We were asked to advise the Secretary of State "on the means by which the Special Reserve can be brought up to establishment, having regard to their efficiency, the requirements of other branches of the Service, and to the exigencies of the public purse." We felt that perhaps the most important of the recommendations which we made "was to try and obtain the money necessary to pay to those members of the Special Reserve who come up for the full period of training what is called "separation allowance." I am glad to say that provision has been made in the Estimates sufficient to enable me to put that into operation, subject to the final approval of the Government. That separation allowance is only for men who attend the full period of annual training, and it will cost £11,000 at the very least. The next most important recommendation which was made, and to which I think my hon. Friends pretty generally attach great importance, was that there should be sufficient money given to officers for the band. The band allowance has been increased by £50, and the officer commanding is authorised to spend it on any object connected with the band. I have been able to provide for the amount in the Estimates, the amount being £2,625. The third most important recommendation was to provide that the Supplementary Special Reservists, instead of undergoing six months' recruit training, in addition to a fortnight annually at the depot, should serve nine months, in addition to one week at the depot; or, alternatively, twelve months, in addition to one week's musketry in alternate years. Men thus enlisted should not be allowed to pass into the Line unless -they have bought their discharge. The Army Council decided to grant this, and to fix the rate of discharge at the high figure of £10 in order to make it practically prohibitive. That, again, is a matter which will cost money, but I maintain that it will not cost much money, though it will inevitably cost a good deal in the first year—we anticipate about £6,000 which has been included in the Estimates of 1914–15.
If my hon. Friends will do an arithmetical sum they will find that the amounts I have stated will come within £20,000, which has already been provided for in the Estimates of this year. Therefore I think they will agree that we have done fairly well in regard to these three large items. I am now going to read a certain number of recommendations which the Committee make, and to inform the Committee of the action we are taking upon them. I apologise to the Committee if my remarks necessarily partake somewhat of the nature of an inventory, but that I am afraid is inseparable from the duty which I am performing. The Report of the Committee is now about to be presented. I do not know whether it has already been presented, but it has, at all events, been laid upon the Table. My right hon. Friend informs me that it has been presented. The recommendations include one that more opportunities of taking up military appointments under the War Office and the Colonial Office should be given to Special Reserve officers. I dare say hon. Gentlemen will realise how difficult it is to get the Departments to do this. There are not many appointments in the Departments which would be suitable to Special Reserve officers, and, of course, there is no lack of Regular officers who are candidates for those posts. The Adjutant-General emphasises the difficulty of finding employment under the War Office for Special Reserve officers. All we say is that there ought not to be a preference given either to Regulars or to Special Reservists; and that there ought to be equality between the two branches of the Service, and the best men ought to get the posts. Then the Committee suggest that the holders of certificates "A" and "B" should be excused some portion of university examination which includes military subjects. I may inform the House that the London University already excused holders of certificates "A" and "B" a part of the practical examination for a military degree, at the option of the examiner. I regret to say that Oxford and Cambridge have refused to accept this proposal.
We also suggest or recommend that a list should be published annually in the Press showing the number of certificates obtained and commissions taken in the Special Reserve and Territorial Force by cadets of the various contingents of the Officers' Training Corps. A list was published in October, 1913, and similar lists will be published annually. It is further suggested that medical examination and gazetting should be expedited. The procedure necessary for the assembling of medical boards and the medical examination of candidates for commissions has been simplified. Paragraph 17 of the Report states that information as to average mess expenses should be circulated to all contingents of the Officers' Training Corps. This proposal has been adopted. Then come a number of recommendations dealing with probationary training. The Committee recommend that the division of the probationary training into three parts should be allowed, but that the whole should be completed within three years from the date of first appointment. That is a matter which is still under consideration. I am afraid I cannot give my hon. Friends the assurance which I feel sure they wish me to give, that this has bean adopted, but I am glad the recommendation has been made. Leave without pay is another matter on which the Committee make a recommendation. They submit that leave without pay from annual training up to fourteen days should be permitted in urgent cases, and leave with pay up to three days should be reintroduced. This proposal has been approved.
We have made a certain number of recommendations in regard to schoolmasters, who are ideal material out of which to form Special Reserve officers. It is recommended that for schoolmasters going on the Supplementary List in future, examinations "A" and "B" should be accepted in place of certificates "A" and "B," and that probationary training should be dispensed with. No action has yet been taken on this proposal. In regard to supplementary officers, it is recommended that they should be allowed to draw pay and allowances in respect of the Officers' Training Corps' annual training, and also of the Special Reserve training. It is believed that arrangements can be made for supplementary officers to draw pay and allowances for both the Officers' Training Corps and the Special Reserve annual training. Then there is a recommendation as to musicians. It is to the effect that musicians, within a limit of fifteen per battalion, should be enlisted without the requirement of one month's recruit training, and, on the completion of the annual training, men so enlisted should be able to claim their discharge without payment. Any pay given to these men in excess of the ordinary rate should be met from the band allowance. That has been approved, with the qualification that musicians can only obtain discharge without payment if they have received no non-training bounty, and that they receive no recruit bounty if they are excused. The necessary Army Order has not been definitely approved. The advantages of joining the Special Reserve, it is suggested, should be brought to the notice of the Army Reservist when his pay is sent for the last time. It was also suggested that the age limit should be increased from forty-two up to forty-six for discharge, but the chief of the General Staff was inclined to think that a man at the age of forty-six would be rather old. I am glad, however, to have obtained his approbation of getting the age altered, so that it should be thirty-eight going up to forty, and the discharge to be at forty-four. That is two years over and above the existing age; it is likewise recommended that the sum paid for the purchase of a discharge should be £5 for those who purchase their discharge before having performed their first annual training. Throughout our Report we demonstrate quite plainly the desire we had to prevent men using the Special Reserve merely as a stepping-stone to the Line. We endeavoured to find any means we could, without doing injury to the Line, to stop that perpetual flow from the Special Reserve into the Line. The Committee also reported that:— Special Reserve officer should be appointed to the War Office, and should be available for consultation in reference to Special Reserve matters. But, inasmuch as the Special Reserve is part of the Regular Army, there are those who feel that to have a special branch for the Special Reserve at the War Office would not really be in accordance with the idea of keeping the Special Reserve as part of the Regular Army, and that by taking such a step as we recommended we would really be taking a retrograde step. The provision made in the Estimate is sufficient to enable me to put into operation any or all of the proposals of my Committee that may receive final approval. I should like the House to realise that the number of the Special Reserve has been increasing rather satisfactorily in the last few months. For instance, the strength of the Special Reserve, exclusive of officers, on the 1st of October, 1912, was 55,500, and in October, 1913, 55,606, and on the 1st March of this year, which is the latest available figure, the total had gone up to 57,952, which is an increase of 2,450. I think, therefore, I am perfectly justified in saying that recruiting has improved, and that the steps which we have taken to advertise the Army by this little book, which I am sure is familiar to hon. Gentlemen in all quarters of the House, with its very engaging pictures, has had a real effect. The figures I have given are exclusive of officers and categories B and C, while with the the total is 65,000.
According to the Army Estimates of this year the number is 63,689.
The figures I have given are those of the 1st of March, and are the latest. We have had quite a considerable increase in the last two months. That, I think, deals with all the subjects under the heading of "Special Reserve."
I mentioned yesterday about the training of young officers for six months causing a difficulty very often in connection with their business.
There was a recommendation, which I mentioned just now, as to that for splitting it up into three periods. It is hoped we may be able to do that. I think the period for the training of the officers is five months.
It is five months for the men preliminary recruiting drill and six for the officer.
Yes, that is so. It was to the men I really meant to refer.
Do I understand that this change will be made?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman must not take me as giving a definite pledge, but it is one of the recommendations we made. No decision has yet been arrived at, but it is hoped that such a change may be made.
It will be favourably considered?
It is down for consideration, but no decision has yet been arrived at. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in his opening speech on Tuesday touched on the subject of horses, and I desire now to supplement what he then said. The British Army, like I believe, all foreign Armies, rely for their mobilisation requirements upon the civil resources of the country. In the case of horses, were such a supply non-existent, we should be compelled at vast expense to maintain not only establishments constantly at war strength, but adequate reserves as well. Thus, in India, where a war establishment is always kept up, we find that British batteries stand in their lines 167 horses strong, as against 70 in England, while the annual expenditure, including the buying of horses, stallions, farms for horses, and depôts, amounts to some £335,000.
Might I ask the hon. Gentleman what that figure represents?
That figure of £335,000 is for the whole Army, I understand. Coming to the number of horses, I find that our requirements for mobilisation total 102,000. The hon. Member for York asked if they were divided into special categories. They are—into riding horses, of which we require, giving the round numbers, 36,000, and of light draught horses 49,000, and heavy draught horses 13,000. It is essential that those horses which we get for mobilisation should be in hard-working condition, and arrangements have been made to classify those horses and know exactly where they are upon the occurrence of any grave national emergency. Some 500 military officers were engaged in the task of completing this horse census.
Ex-officers?
No; serving officers. This classification shows that in riding horses we have 87,000, and in light draught 132,000, and in heavy draught 148,000. The numbers we require in those classes respectively, being 36,000, 49,000, and 13,000. Thus, even giving away or conceding a 25 per cent. margin for those which might be unable from any cause to be made available, or for any possible inaccuracies, we have an ample margin. All those horses are between the ages of five and fourteen years, and there is a complete description of them all. In order to test whether this census has been carried out accurately, remount officers were sent from the War Office to pay surprise visits to five districts, three in England being composite districts, including urban and rural population, and one in Scotland, and one purely urban district of Blackburn, in Lancashire. The one in Scotland was in my own Constituency, but I was unaware that they were going there. They found that there was in the county of Berwick only 5 per cent. of error in classification, and that, I think, may be taken as very satisfactory. As has already been mentioned in the Memorandum we have appointed eighty-five special officers to undertake the revision, as it were, of this census, so that no possible error, which can be avoided, shall be allowed to creep into this list.
Are those veterinary officers?
No, not necessarily; but, of course, a veterinary officer would not be excluded. They are mostly retired officers with special knowledge of horses. Up to now I have been dealing with the figures in connection with the case of a grave national emergency, and I now turn to what is required for partial mobilisation for what we call "little wars." For that there is a horse reserve kept up in two sections amounting to 20,000, of which 10,000 are in the section containing riding and light draught horses, for which a retaining fee of ten shillings per year is paid. The Artillery section also contains 10,000 Artillery horses, for which a retaining fee of £4 a year is paid on a three years' contract. All these horses are available within forty-eight hours. In view of the growth of motor traction, it is extremely desirable that this supply of horses should be kept up. There are now being made to the Board of Agriculture certain proposals by which we hope to be able to perpetuate, at any rate, a sufficiently large margin over and above the requirements which I have named. No fewer than 80 per cent. of our horses come from Ireland. I should like to appeal to farmers in Scotland and England that they should engage more in horse breeding. I cannot think that it is altogether desirable that so large a proportion of our light draught horses should come from Ireland.
Will the hon. Gentleman give encouragement to those who, like myself, breed horses, by purchasing horses at the same age as is done in other countries?
I should like to give the Noble Lord every possible encouragement, because he is very deserving of it, but I do not think that we can alter our policy to suit his particular class of horse. An interesting question arises as to the connection between blood-stock kept for racing purposes and the class of horse which we are considering here and its improvement. It is rather interesting to observe the connection between gambling and betting on the turf and the keeping up of blood-stock. Hon. Members will be aware that a short time ago the United States passed a law against betting, with the result that nearly all the racing studs were given up and no races were held. In order to keep the supply of horses in something like a good condition, and to bring back the blood-stock, I understand that very recently they have returned to the old betting principle, and races are again taking place. It is a very interesting ethical and psychological question how far that ought to be encouraged.
Would you encourage betting here?
I would do a great deal, but I cannot go so far as that. I would like the Committee to consider whether it would go so far as our great neighbour, the French Republic, where they have a system on the turf—the Pari-mutuel —under which a percentage of the proceeds are taken and applied to horse breeding. Whether the House of Commons would think itself entitled to give so direct a financial encouragement to betting and racing is really a matter upon which I cannot pronounce, and which I leave to the speculation of hon. Members.
Would the hon. Member bring in a Bill to that effect?
I am afraid I cannot undertake to do that.
The question of legislation cannot be discussed on the Estimates.
I am very much obliged to you, Sir, for getting me out of my difficulty. I should like to acquaint the Committee with another little piece of work which has been accomplished at the War Office during the past year. It is not a very uncommon complaint against the War Office that we write too many letters and sling too much ink. When I suggested to my right hon. Friend—or he suggested to me—that it might be a good plan to have a Committee to cut down the correspondence within the War Office itself and between the War Office and the commands, he—or I—readily acceded to the suggestion. I presided over a Committee, having as my right-hand man Lieutenant-General Sir Herbert Miles, now Governor of Gibraltar. I was also assisted by Sir Reginald Brade, who has now taken Sir Edward Ward's place as Permanent Under-Secretary at the War Office. To both of these gentlemen I should like to tender my acknowledgments for their valuable assistance. We did a fair amount of work last year. I do not pretend that we covered the whole ground, and the work is to be continued this year, when I shall be assisted by Sir Alfred Codrington in the place of Sir Herbert Miles, and by Mr. Cubitt in the place of Sir Reginald Brade. We dealt with 165 different Army forms, a, great many of which we recommended should be abolished. The list of forms dealt with is contained in a large appendix to the Report, occupying five pages. Twelve forms have already been cancelled, and sixteen amended. Eventually 153 will be dealt with. I think the Committee will agree that that is a work worthy of being done.
In connection with the question of horse-breeding, is the hon. Gentleman aware that the supply of stallions is ample and excellent, and that it is the mares that have run short? It is on the question of supplying mares that encouragement is needed.
I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his information. I believe he is right, but I thought that I had sufficiently dealt with that subject to show him the steps that were being taken to improve the breed of light draught horses in this country.
I do not propose to follow the hon. Gentleman in his suggestion of the State establishment of betting, nor do I know whether that would be to the advantage of the Special Reserve, and it is upon that that I wish to speak. All of us who served on the Departmental Committee would desire to express our sense of the courtesy always extended to us by the hon. Gentleman, and of the great trouble that he took in connection with the Committee. I must add, however, that we are a little disappointed that the whole of our recommendations have not been carried out as we suggested last year. It is only an interim Report, and does not profess to deal with the whole question. A great deal more will have to be done if the Special Reserve is to be put in the position which it ought to occupy. I think it is rather disappointing that, after all the months we took to consider these small changes, which, after all, amounted to very little, and were only meant as palliatives, they have not been carried out in their entirety. I am grateful to the Secretary of State for the concessions he has made. The allowance to married Special Reservists during camp time will be a great advantage. The right hon. Gentleman said that it was only for those who go to camp. In the Special Reserve they all have to go to camp. It is not possible to be let off half the period, as in the case of the Territorials. I admit the value of that concession, and I think it will conduce to better recruiting for the Special Reserve. I admit also the value of the concession with regard to band allowance. No doubt one difficulty of getting officers, and every commanding officer knows how great that difficulty is, is the heavy cost put upon officers, especially in connection with the band. I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has seen his way to meet us in that respect. There are other changes which we recommended and which ought to be carried out at once, but which have not been, touched, and unless they are carried out our difficulties will remain.
In regard to the main principle, this is really a very important matter. The Special Reserve has broken down. The right hon. Gentleman himself said so the other day. He stated that it was impossible to produce a force like the Special Reserve, with its present limitations, up to the standard laid down by Lord Haldane. I venture to say that when the scheme of Lord Haldane has broken down in an important particular, as it has, by the admission of the right hon. Gentleman, the Government ought to take every possible step to bring it up to the standard at the present time. Remember what it means. Lord Haldane, in his wisdom, chose to abolish the Militia. I always thought that that was a most unwise proceeding. What had you under the Militia? Take what the Militia did in the South African war. You had 126 Infantry units; they came up as units, not merely as depot battalions. Of those units, sixty-one served in South Africa, nine served in the Mediterranean, and fifty-six did garrison duty at home. What have you got now? You have only twenty-seven battalions, which can come out as units, and those twenty-seven battalions are frightfully under strength, both in officers and in men, and they have no reserve at all. They have the highest establishment—750—while the establishment of the depot battalions is only 580, and yet they are generally the weakest of all. That is really all you have got, without any reserves to take the place of the 126 Militia units which you had before.
What have you got besides? You have seventy-four depot battalions. I quite admit the great value that they would be if they were up to strength; but what good would they be in their present condition? They cannot supply many men, because they are so weak. Take the question of officers. The great difficulty on the mobilisation of the Special Reserve would be to officer these depot battalions. The depot battalion would have all its own Special Reserves. It would have the immature lads who were not fit to take the field with the Line battalions. It would have all the Reservists who came up, but were not immediately wanted for the Line battalions. In most cases the depot battalions at the beginning would come up to 1,200 or 1,400 men. How many officers would they have? They would lose their Regular establishment officers, and they would have to give four of their officers to the Line battalions. Some of them have only thirteen instead of twenty-seven Special Reserve officers now. That means that you would have, in some cases, nine officers to officer 1,200 or 1,400 men. How on earth is the proper instruction of recruits, and the sending of drafts to be carried on under those conditions? It is absolutely impossible. Remember these depot battalions have different duties to do. They have not only got to be depot battalions to supply drafts to the Line battalions. They have also certain mobilisation stations, which is part of the general scheme of the defence, and every one of them would have a post to defend in case of a raid. Under present conditions it is quite impossible for them properly to fulfil their duties. Therefore it is the duty of the right hon. Gentleman and the Government to take drastic steps at once to bring them up to their proper position. I do feel disappointment that the whole of our recommendations—only these small palliatives—are not to be carried out at the very first moment by the Government. One of the most remarkable features of the Special Reserve system is the constant lowering—the degradation, if I may call it—of the establishment. Though the establishment goes on going down, the actual strength goes down still more. A few years ago the establishment of the Militia was 130,000. It is well over 100,000 strong. Year by year since the Haldane scheme was inaugurated the establishment has come down, and the strength has come down even more, so that now the establishment is only roughly 80,000, and the strength is something that varies month by month between 55,000 and 65,000.
In 1904 the establishment was 89,000.
I do not know whether I said ten years ago; I was referring to the time when I first joined the Militia. At that time the establishment was over 130,000, if I remember aright, while the actual strength was something like 115,000. There has been a progressive decline ever since. What happens? If in any year your strength falls below the establishment, you proceed to bring the establishment down; then the strength falls below the establishment again. Is it not time the Government really took drastic steps to deal with the Special Reserve if they attach any value whatever to it? If they do not, I suggest that the sooner it is abolished the better. I have referred already to one or two changes which we recommended, and which the Government have accepted. For this we give them our thanks, but they have left out one of the most important changes which would really have a considerably immediate effect upon the supply of officers. Take the case of the probationary period for officers. I confess I do not understand why the Government have not made up their minds after all we reported last August. We pointed out most conclusively that so long as you make a young fellow go straight away for six months to a Line battalion, it is practically impossible to get new officers, and that unless you gave the commission to the idle man, or captured the men immediately they leave the university or the public school, you would not get them. I tell the Government unless they make some relaxation of their plan, to enable a young fellow who joins the Special Reserve, not to undertake his probationary period immediately, but to do it perhaps in six months' time, and in two or three parts, as we recommended, it will be practically impossible for us to get officers for the force.
Those of us in this House who are commanding officers ought to have the sympathy of the Government. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that what time I have to spare from defending the Church in Wales from the assaults of the Government, or from urging better housing conditions in the country, I spend in trying to get officers for my battalion. I almost invariably get the same answer: "We can do a month's training, but not six months' probation." Therefore I would respectfully urge upon the right hon. Gentleman that the Government should meet us in that matter at the earliest possible opportunity. There are two other recommendations that we made of real importance, and I regret the Government have not undertaken the matter. One is the question of uniform. One reason why it is difficult to get recruits is because the authorities dress them so very badly. The dress of the Special Reserve is still that miserable badly-fitting frock which is an eye-sore to the man and makes him a thing to mock at when he walks out in the street. The hardship is the greater in this way because the Regulars have a decent tunic; the Territorial Force have a decent tunic; but the poor Special Reservist has only got this wretched frock. Let me point out to the right hon. Gentleman what happens? Three years ago my battalion was quartered at Shorncliffe. We had three smart Line battalions in garrison, and a whole Territorial Division. The Linesmen walked out in Folkestone in their smart tunics. The Territorials walked out in Folkestone in their smart tunics. The poor Special Reservist had nothing but this wretched frock, and there was not a girl in Folkestone who would look at him. [Laughter.] It may be a subject for laughter and ridicule, but I beg to assure the House that recruiting depends considerably on feminine influence. Why do we still get this wretched frock? The reason is characteristic of the way in which the Special Reservist—and the Militiamen before him—is always treated.
The reason is this: Before the South. African war and before the khaki uniform, was introduced for ordinary work, the British Army was clothed in a red serge frock. Vast quantities of this cloth was stored in the War Office establishments. Khaki was introduced. The authorities did not know what to do with the redicloth. Some wise-acre said, "Put it on the Special Reserve." So we are going on still using this old red serge to the detriment of recruiting for the Special Reserve. If the Government wish to deal fairly by this force they ought to scrap the whole of that red serge, and give the Special Reservists a decent cloth tunic like the Linesmen or the Territorials There is another point, rather a technical one, but very important. We recommended—and I am sorry it is not carried out so far as I can gather—that we should try to attract men who go into Section D of the Reserve into the Special Reserve. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman realises that Section D consists of the men who have served twelve years, seven years with the Colours and five with the Reserve. If the man likes, at the end of twelve years, he can re-engage in Section D, and then he is available for service like the ordinary Reservists. I have always suggested that we should get this man into the Special Reserve. Why? Because, first of all, you stiffen the Special Reserve very much if you get these old soldiers; and, secondly, it is far better for the old soldier to be doing a month's training.
We recommended that arrangements should be made to get the Section D men into the Special Reserve. The reason you cannot do it is this: That the man in Section D gets more pay than the Special Reservist, and if a man can get more pay for doing nothing he is not likely to join' the Special Reserve for the purpose of working. We recommended that the Special Reserve offer to these men as much in the way of emoluments as Section D does, so that we might endeavour to get them into this Special Reserve. I regret very much that the Government have not seen their way to accept that proposal, which I think would do a very great deal to stiffen and improve the Special Reserve, and also would provide a month's annual training for these men. I was rather struck by the remark by the Secretary of State the other day, that if the Special Reserve was 13,000 under strength, it was compensated for by the fact that the National Reserve was 13,000 above strength.
I said nothing of the kind. What I said was that Class I. of the National Reserve, who are now doing service overseas, amounted to over 13,000.
I was speaking from memory, and I do not wish to do an injustice to the right hon. Gentleman, but may I point out that really the matter amounts to this: You have got 13,000 men who have been many years from the Colours. Take a National Reserve man of 42—that was the figure given the other day. By that time the man has been, presumably, about seventeen years away from the Colours. With all respect to the National Reserve man, the man who does a month's training every year must be a better soldier than the man who has been all these years away from the Colours. I do not want to prolong the discussion. I would acknowledge the trouble the Secretary for War and the Under-Secretary have taken over this Committee. I gratefully accept what little crumbs the right hon. Gentleman has given to us, but I do think that the Government, if they wish to preserve the force, should take much more drastic steps. I do not, and cannot, believe that you will stop the decline of the force except by doing what I adumbrated. I hope the Government will take further steps to bring "this essential part of our forces," as the Secretary of State has called it, up to its proper strength.
5.0 P.M.
I do not propose to take up much of the time of the Committee, but I hope I may be allowed to make one or two remarks with regard to this force. I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War for having allowed us to have this Committee, and the Under-Secretary for the way he has acted as Chairman. The only stock which the Special Reserve seems to have been possessed of during the last two years has been "hope deferred." I am glad indeed to see that this year we have, after a good deal of hard work, got a very small divi- dend. Let us hope we may get a better one in the time to come. I quite agree with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Dudley has said. The Government must make up their mind as to whether or not this force is worth having. May I point out to the Government that it is the only force we have in this country, except the Regular Army, which is liable for active service at any time. It has contributed its quota in every war that we have had from the time of Waterloo to that of the South African campaign, but it is deplorable that it has been allowed to come down from an establishment of nearly 100,000 men to a force of something like 53,000 men, as we had it last year. On one very important matter the Government have given us its help, and that is with regard to the question of separate allowance. I look upon the grant of separation allowance as possibly making the difference at the present time between the life and death of the force. At least, if the Government did not grant separation allowances it would have meant the last of the Special Reserve. What have we got as a result of these recommendations? We have got a total amount of £20,000, but we asked for £50,000, and the Territorial Force, which, of course, we back up in every possible way, secured £200,000. Having regard to the fact that the Territorials received £200,000, I think we might have been allowed something like £30,000 more, which we required to get the Special Reserve clothing which they would not be ashamed to walk about in. There is one other point with regard to the Special Reserve at the present time, and that is that when a Special Reservist joins his battalion he ought not to be allowed to pass on to the Army or Regular Forces until he has done at least one training with his battalion. That would tend to stiffen the battalion which at the present time gets no value from the necessary expense of his preliminary training if he goes straight to the Line, and he would be a better man if he had joined the Regular Army. After all, the great question we have got to consider is the question how to get more men into the Special Reserve. That is a problem which I think will require a very great amount of ingenuity to get over. I only suggest one possible remedy. Nobody knows what the Special Reserve is—one of the worst plans for the future welfare of the force adopted by the late Secretary of State for War was that when he changed the name of Militia to that of Special Reserve. The name "Special Reserve" conveys nothing, not only to the "man in the street," but even to experienced officers. In my opinion there is really no room for more than two forces. If a man wants to go into the Army he can enlist. If he wishes to go into the Territorial Force, if there is a Territorial officer on the spot of any use, and most of them are, he will take very good care to get every man for the Territorial Force who does not wish to join the Army. Where does the Special Reserve come in? I am afraid at the present it does not come in at all. I will give an instance of a county where the Territorial Force is strong, and I was told by an officer, who had 136 men in his company last year, that when he wanted to get rid of seven of them he asked his colour-sergeant what they would do, and the sergeant said they were all taken into the Special Reserve. That shows there is no room for more than two forces. The only way you will get more men for the Special Reserve, if you want to get full battalions for each service in time of emergency, will be to localise the recruiting. Take special areas, and insist that men who enlist in those areas shall go into the Special Reserve if they enlist within that area. I believe that is the only way to get over the difficulty of the want of knowledge regarding the force due to the change of name. We see in the newspapers and in the "London Gazette" that this force is referred to as the Special Reserve of Officers. Whether this is a forecast on the part of the Government which means that they fear that in a short time there will be no men in the force at all, I cannot say. I only wish the Under-Secretary would take into consideration what we recommended, and call these battalions in the "Gazette" "Reserve Battalions," and then, at any rate, we should know where we were. I should like to point out that twenty years ago, when we had a full quota of Militia—before Lord Haldane disbanded seventy-four battalions, many battalions stood on parade over 1,000 strong. Surely with proper encouragement that could be done to-day. When I joined the old Militia in 1895 the battalion I joined stood on parade 1,100 strong, and ten companies. To-day the same battalion has only 350 men for training. I think you will require very drastic measures if you are going to do something really useful to provide men and officers for the Special Reserve. One more remark—we are always told that the very great difficulty is of getting more money for clothing and other necessary requirements of the force. I still observe that the whole grant for the Officers' Training Corps is put down as a Special Reserve Vote. I do not think that is fair. Certainly a large proportion of officers go from the Officers' Training Corps into the Regular Army, and a very large number go into the Territorial Force, and we are told that an increasing number of them go into the Special Reserve. In my opinion there is a large sum of money taken out of this Vote which ought to be divided between the Vote for the Regular Army, the Special Reserve, and the Territorial Force; then, without increasing the amount for the Special Reserve, you would have available a certain amount of money, which you might use for providing better clothing. The commanding officers of battalions are not encouraged by the War Office to take a real interest in their battalions. They are too little consulted with regard to important matters connected with their regiments, and very little notice is taken of their requirements in the way either of adjutants or of the Line officers posted to them. In the case of my own battalion, the late adjutant was posted for that battalion without any consultation with my late commanding officer, and, without my being consulted in any way, an officer I had never heard of or seen before was sent to me as adjutant by the War Office in the last three months. That is not encouraging to officers commanding battalions who, in season and out of season, have devoted themselves to their work, and it is not right that they should receive a snub of this character. I am very grateful to the Government and the Undersecretary for what they have done, and I am always ready to co-operate with any Government that may be in office to render this arm of the Service fully efficient.
I do not intend to take up more than a few minutes, because several of my hon. Friends wish to speak this afternoon, and I promise not to repeat anything that my two hon. Friends have already said. The Under-Secretary rather prided himself, I think, on having been so generous as to vote us an increase of £20,000 towards the Special Reserve. May I suggest that he might give us more than that without any extra cost to the public? I asked the hon. Gentleman this afternoon a question which was not reached for oral answer in the House. The question was:—
I also think it might be possible to advertise the Special Reserve a good deal more. At present very few people know what the Special Reserve is. I would suggest, instead of pamphlets and posters being sent out, which are really never read, that whatever changes were made in the Special Reserve should be advertised in newspapers, and for choice the Saturday football papers, which get to places where the recruiting sergeant never gets to. There is another point which the Committee dealt with when they were sitting, and that is that the Special Reserve should have a representative at the War Office. I do not think that any satisfactory arrangement will ever be made in the Special Reserve unless someone is appointed to represent it at the War Office. From the Estimates it will be seen that there are 211 officers employed on the staff of the Territorial Force. I never heard that anyone was appointed permanently for the Special Reserve. The Army list shows that on the staff of the Territorial Force there is a director-general, supported by two assistant directors, a staff captain, a civilian gentleman, called an assistant-principal, and the remainder of the 211, I suppose, are made up of divisional generals, brigadiers, and staff officers. The Special Reserve has absolutely no one whose sole duty is to consider its interests at the War Office, yet the Special Reserve is what the Secretary of State for War calls in his Memorandum "this most essential part of our forces," and surely there should be someone whose whole time would be devoted to its welfare!
I should like to say a few words on the subject of small arms and ammunition. I will preface my remarks by stating that I am considerably indebted to the courtesy of the right hon. Gentleman and some of his staff for confidential information, and I can assure him I shall not on this occasion abuse that confidence. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell as much as he can to the House and the public on these subjects, because they are matters of very great interest, and I think a good deal of information might be given without in any way imperilling the public interest. The first thing that struck me on examining the Estimates for this year was the tremendous reduction in the provision for small arms ammunition and rifles, and bayonets. The first item is reduced from £545,000 to £350,000, or a reduction of 40 per cent. Rifles and bayonets have been reduced by 50 per cent. as compared with last year. Naturally, this has caused some little anxiety, and my first point is a request for some explanation. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give to the House a positive assurance that the minimum laid down, so far as rifles and small arm ammunition are concerned, is being maintained.
I give that assurance now at once, absolutely.
I had no doubt the right hon. Gentleman would give us that assurance, but I felt anxious on the point, and I wish to find out the cause of the decrease. It would be interesting if the right hon. Gentleman would tell us whether the cause is the provision of new plant. Another suggestion has been made in two or three quarters that the reduced provision for ammunition is due to the expectation that at a very early date the War Office will have a perfectly satisfactory combination of new ammunition and rifles, and that they desire to work off the stocks of the existing ammunition in advance. That, again, would be a great danger if it were true, and the right hon. Gentleman will, I hope, remove that fear. That brings me to the new rifle, the experimental .276 rifle. I think it is a matter of common knowledge that the trials which the War Office carried out last year on a rather extensive scale have proved that they have not yet found a perfect combination of rifle and cartridge. That is a point on which I think the Committee may fairly ask for a certain amount of greater detail. It is very difficult, I know, for anybody to say with confidence how long it may take to provide a satisfactory ammunition for a rifle which appears on the face of it to be an extremely satisfactory one, and I think the reason for the difficulty is that the War Office, in searching for this new perfect combination, put the cart before the horse, because, from the scientific point of view, it would be infinitely easier to build a rifle which will give perfectly satisfactory results with a given adopted ammunition than provide an ammunition that will give the most satisfactory results with a given adopted rifle. On three or four occasions I have pressed that point home. With regard to the rifle now under discussion I know it is too late. Rut I am sure my point will be borne in mind, because I know my opinion is shared by experts in rifles at the War Office. I hope this will be borne in mind if any variation in the rifle has to be made.
I do not know whether I should be going beyond what is right and proper if I make one or two suggestions to the right hon. Gentleman with regard to this rifle. I am not going to give away any details which would be of value to anybody else, but my point will be of importance, so far as our troops are concerned, when the time comes for them to carry this weapon into action. The first point is with regard to the sight. As everybody knows, the fixed aperture sight—I do not mean it is rigidly fixed, but it is incapable of elevation—is set at 400 yards range. That, I believe, is perfectly right; but there is no reason why the aperture sight on the leaf, the adjustable aperture sight, should not be capable of being adjusted to a shorter range. I should like to point out the importance of that. Rifles have to be used at times, and will have to be used, at very short ranges, and then snap-shooting and rapidity of aim is all-important. The Secretary for War is a rifle shot himself, and he knows how comparatively easy it is for a man well trained in rifle shooting, given an accurately sighted rifle, to get an accurate aim almost instantaneously through an aperture, but it is quite impossible to make allowance for even a few inches in making that aim, and, therefore, the sighting must be absolutely accurate. Flat as is the trajectory at 200 yards of this rifle, if a head appears from behind a post or stone, although many men could hit that head within two seconds five times out of six through an aperture with a rifle they were accustomed to, I think, if it is only sighted for 400 yards, they would not hit that head once in six times. I think that is a point worth noticing, and I should suggest that the fixed aperture should be left where it is, but that the aperture on the leaf should be made adjustable to the shortest possible range. My next point is with regard to the magazine platform. When the magazine has been emptied, the platform rises in front of the bolt head, and prevents the closing of the breach, until it is pressed down. The object of this is to prevent single loading into the chamber, and to compel the soldier to charge the magazine. I am not, on this occasion, disputing the soundness of this object.
But there is one fact which may have been overlooked. In these days it has been laid down that at certain stages of the attack short rushes are the proper mode of progression, and four seconds is the limit of time between leaving one position to getting back into one's prone position. That is generally accepted, but there is no margin whatever in it. I should like to throw out this suggestion, that if it happens that a soldier has just emptied his magazine when he has to prepare to make the next short rush that he will not be able to close the bolt, because he has one hand engaged, and it is almost impossible to close it with one hand. If you bring the other hand back while in an absolutely prone position your muzzle probably goes into the ground, and it takes time. This will mean that in nine cases out of ten, if the magazine is empty, the soldier will be rushing forward, and throwing himself down with an open breach and loose bolt. The risk of damage is very great, and no useful object is gained. Thirdly, I hope the position of the sling swivels will be reconsidered. I find myself that they are uncomfortably placed for the slinging of the rifle for the purposes of carriage, and they make it quite impossible to use a sling, as some of our best shots are accustomed to do, for the purpose of steadying the rifle to fire. I hope in what I have said that I have not transgressed the confidence of the right hon. Gentleman.
Hear, hear.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman may be able to give the Committee a good deal more information as to the present position of the rifle and ammunition, including the probability of our adopting an automatic action.
The right hon. Gentleman, speaking the other day on these Estimates, informed us that the term "England" included Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. I am not going to argue that point, but there seems to be no doubt, from the fatherly way in which the right hon. Gentleman took up all the good points in his Memorandum and Estimates, that the right hon. Gentleman follows rather the idea of the holiday task we were asked sometimes to do at school, namely, "Write an essay on the expansion of England." If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to take the good points, he must be prepared to be criticised on some of the bad points in regard to which we do not see eye to eye. I am going to base my remarks upon his Memorandum, and I will take the items seriatim. I do not think any individual who desires to promote the efficiency of the Army ought to carp at the increased expenditure, more especially as it must be obvious to the meanest intelligence in the country, who studies Army questions in the least, that we are bound to have an Aviation Department, and an efficient one, and you cannot have that without a certain amount of expenditure. This is an increased expenditure which every civilised Power is bound to meet.
I think the right hon. Gentleman is very wise to hand the Lighter-than-Air Department over to the Navy, because, after all, there are very few occasions when it would suit our Army to use the Lighter-than-Air Service. Obviously, in the present state of aeroplanes, for what I may call sea-scouting purposes, the Lighter- than-Air Service is, as we are situated, indispensable. The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned that airships would not be suitable for the Indian frontier. I should have thought that the Indian frontier was exactly the one place where aeroplanes would be suitable. After all, there are no dukes; or other people there to give you land. It is very dangerous to abuse landowners there, and they are not always likely to welcome you if you make a forced dissent upon them. Possibly the same remarks will apply to Somaliland, to where the right hon. Gentleman, if he continues in office, will probably have to turn his attention before very long. Of course, as far as India is concerned, that is a matter for the Indian Army, and not so much for our Army. There is certainly one point on which we cannot disagree, and that is with regard to the special section of the Army Ordnance Department which is going to be told off for the supply of spare parts and engines, and so on. I think we may congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on doing that. The right hon. Gentleman has not, so far as I can seer given us any promise of a material increase in the number of pilots. It is comparatively easy to get new aeroplanes on the outbreak of war. You can get them manufactured, provided, of course, you have a sufficient number to start with and a good reserve. You can always impound civilian ones. Unfortunately, the risk to the pilots are capital risks. It is not with him a question of bad wounds as it is with other officers and of coming back to duty when he has recovered. It simply means that you have got to replace him. We ought, therefore, to have a very large reserve, even if we do not keep them actually in the Flying Fleet. I should like to mention the right hon. Gentleman's idea of having landing stages throughout the whole of this country. Everyone, of course, agrees with that, but it is not quite so easy to carry it out as the right hon. Gentleman seems to think. He says, "We will chance a cow," but the farmer is not going to chance your aeroplane.
I undertake at once to pay for the cow.
First catch your cow. The statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the other day might get into some of the Farm Press and be misunderstood. That is the reason I raised the question. There are very few fields that are really big enough for the purpose. It means raising hedges, filling up ditches, cutting timber, and things of that sort. I think if the War Office axe prepared to pay reasonable out-of-pocket expenses, a good deal might be done through the Aero Club. I have no reason to doubt that landlords within reason would be glad to meet the right hon. Gentleman, but at the same time he might, to put it mildly, muzzle some of the other Members of the Front Bench, so that at least we might have willing ground on which to work when we are dealing with these landlords. I am glad to see the line the right hon. Gentleman has taken with reference to the new brigade of Cavalry. I am not going to talk about the further ideas which he suggests, except to say that I am quite certain that he will have the co-operation of all Cavalry officers and other officers on this side of the House. At the same time he has done away with the Mounted Infantry. That, I think, is perfect-right, because of the advantages we gain otherwise, but I do not think it is right to do away with Mounted Infantry training, which is another thing. There may be many occasions when you do want to use Mounted Infantry in an emergency, and I think that at every big Cavalry centre, like Salisbury and Aldershot, a large number of Infantry ought to be trained, at any rate, in riding. They ought to be given really efficient riding school instruction. It could be done very cheaply. It could be done at times when the Cavalry would be very glad to have the horses exercised, and you could certainly use the Cavalry staff to give the instruction. The next point the right hon. Gentleman raised was the question of the pay of the officers, and at the same moment he spoke about employment for the men who had left the Colours. I am sorry to say that we saw nothing in regard to that in the Memorandum.
It is here.
It is very sketchy. I always know when the right hon. Gentleman is not very keen to talk about a subject; it is always very hazy and general. He did not tell us anything very definite with regard to this subject, although it looks very well on the platform. I will give him one little point which I think he might consider. The men in the ranks now have got very few real grievances, but they are given a certain amount of pay for efficiency in musketry, and I think you ought to give them an equal chance of getting that pay. It is perfectly obvious that if a man is stationed in Scotland, where he has nothing to do most of the year, he is absolutely trained in musketry, and he picks up his pay for efficiency in musketry easily; but if you take the same regiment and put it down at Aldershot, the man hardly gets to the ranges and has very little practice. These men in the regiments at Aldershot, however, are far more efficient soldiers than the men who are not getting so much pay in the North, but they do not make such a good musketry standard, with the result that they lose. I think that certain stations should be given a rebate so far as musketry is concerned, not in order to spend more money, but simply in order to make it as fair as one possibly can to the soldier, wherever he may be placed.
We have heard a great deal about trying to get employment for non-commissioned officers when they leave the Colours. The right hon. Gentleman said that there were very few places in the Civil Service, and that he was not counting on the Post Office. I can quite understand why he does not count on the Post Office. The Post Office now runs the Postmaster-General, instead of the Postmaster-General running the Post Office. We really want to try to get the trade unions of the country to see if they cannot do something to help the men in the Service, and not to put obstacles in their way, as they very often do when they leave the Service. There are a whole lot of men, the very best soldiers in the Army—sergeants and staff sergeants and senior non-commissioned officers and warrant officers—who, when they leave the Service, are at a loss to find employment, although they are very intelligent and probably the most reliable men in the whole of the country. These men find tremendous difficulty in getting places. A man in that position in the Army does not want to carry a post-bag or to pull the right hon. Gentleman up in a lift. He wants something better. I have one suggestion to make. In the old days everybody had to go through an examination to get into the Civil Service, but this Government has broken through that rule, and a great many people, sometimes according to their politics and sometimes for other reasons, are able to get into the Civil Service at a much later period of life. Why do you not allow these non-commissioned officers, if they are recommended in character and in every other way by their commander-in-chief, to go through a Civil Service examination while they are in the Army and so qualify them- selves for the Civil Service, and not find that the time they are in the Army is lost? I think you might get a great many valuable Civil servants in that way. I think it would be only fair to do something for these men, the very best men who serve in the Army. It is satisfactory to see more money for the officers. £144,000, but the right hon. Gentleman promised to tell us something about the shortage of officers. I think he has forgotten to do it.
Oh, no!
The question of the initial expense is, of course, one that people always fear, but I do not think that it is so very expensive while you are in the Army, though, of course, you want to see some prospect, instead of going into a blind alley. It is just as much a blind alley for the officer as it is for the men. In the old days the officer got his pension with no liabilities, but today he has some liabilities. I do not say that it is wrong, but before he gets his £100 a year he has to go to the Special Reserve. The Special Reserve is short of officers, and it is difficult to get them. I quite admit and realise that. The Yeomanry is full of officers, and it is quite easy to get them. The best officers we had in the Yeomanry used, to a great extent, to be the subalterns who had been in the Cavalry, but now you force them to go into the Infantry, simply in order that you may show a large number of officers in the Special Reserve. We ought to have those officers, if they wish it, in the Yeomanry. I know that the right hon. Gentleman does not agree with me on one point. He thinks that one untrained man is worth six trained men. I am exaggerating it, but he knows what I mean. He believes that the man in the Territorial Force, in certain ways, is better than the man in the Regulars.
No, I never said that.
The right hon. Gentleman had a talk with me here with regard to certain regiments in South Africa, and he explained how much better the South African Light Horse—he meant the Imperial Light Horse—was than many of the Regular forces out there. Nearly all the Irregular regiments that did well in the South African war were those which had Regular non-commissioned officers and officers. There is no question about that. I would like every field officer in the Yeomanry, at all events, to have had some Regular service or something to compensate for it. If they are so very good without having been in the Regular Army, if they are sufficiently efficient to take on all the world, why on earth bother about training the Regular Army for 365 days? Why not merely give them eighteen days and not worry to pay them for the remaining 347 days? I confess I have never been able to follow the argument of the right hon. Gentleman in that respect. I have a great respect for the Territorial Force. I have heard the opinions of a great many people upon it. I have always been very fortunate in the men with whom I have come into contact, and my opinion is that if a breakdown occurs in case of mobilisation, the breakdown will be not with the men, but with the officers, who are untrained. You cannot train an officer in eighteen days. The officers themselves are keen and of the best material, but we want the head of squadrons and the field officers to be men of more experience. We want them to have that knowledge which is lacking in the lower ranks of officers. I have never known a bad squadron do well with inefficient and untrained officers, but I have known a bad squadron with good officers do exceedingly good work.
I now come to the question of expense. There is nothing an officer loathes more than to feel that the War Office is making money out of him. On this matter I wish to address myself to the Financial Secretary to the War Office. The other day, when I said the War Office were making 100 per cent. out of the Army in connection with furniture, he challenged my statement. I will now give the hon. Gentleman my figures. I know mine are accurate; I do not know whether those lie has are so, and I am not quite sure if he knows them to be accurate. I do not think there has ever been much sympathy at the War Office for gentlemen who has to pay 1d. per day for the furniture which is supplied. Marching officers who have to pay that sum are beginning to wonder what they pay the penny for. Let me say at once my figures are not based on the cost price of the articles, but on the retail price which is charged against officers for breakages. The wholesale prices, no doubt, would be considerably less. The furniture in each officer's quarters cost £17 17s. 8d. That is the capital value of it, as I think the hon. Gentleman will admit. It is the value according to the charges if any of the articles are broken. Now the officer has to pay 1d. per day rent for it. The furniture in the quartermaster's quarters is valued at £67 16s. 5½d., and he has to pay 3d. per day rent for that. The officers' mess furniture and furnishings are valued at £359 12s. 3d., and every officer, including the quartermaster, has to pay 1d. per day for the use of that furniture. In passing, I may observe the quartermaster never uses it. Damages are seldom admitted to be fair wear and tear. If there is a simple scratch on the furniture, the officer is charged for it, and you are far better treated by a lodging-house keeper in Brighton than by the representatives of the War Office.
The Government started this system in 1902. I am going to take the case of a regiment in which the system was started in November, 1902. It is a case of which I am personally cognisant. The grievance is that the officers have to pay this charge for the furniture. I might take the case of a Scottish regiment stationed at Edinburgh Castle. It is not the one from which I got my figures. The officers have probably to go to Stobs for several months in the year, and surely it is manifestly unfair that an officer should have to pay 1d. per day for furniture in barracks when the War Office authorities send him away to Stobs or some other place for several months I am perfectly well aware that nowadays officers are given an allowance when they join for tent furniture, but still they are being charged for the barrack furniture, and even in that matter the War Office has been very mean. It is horribly mean, because when they brought this thing in they wanted to get the biggest advertisement they could for new officers joining. They wanted to be put to the least possible expense and to give the minimum amount of justice and satisfaction to those concerned. They succeeded. They gave this allowance for camp furniture only to officers who joined after the Act passed, knowing that probably 88 per cent. or 90 per cent. were already in the Army and would not get it. The right hon. Gentleman might do an act of tardy justice and give the allowance to all the officers who have not had it, bearing in mind that those who go to camp still have to pay 1d. per day for their barrack furniture.
I now want to take the figures. The hon. Gentleman thinks that they are wrong. Let us see how they work out. At the rate of 1d. per day the officer pays the full value of the furniture in eleven years, 227 days, or practically twelve years. The quartermaster, who pays 3d. per day, contributes the full value of the furniture in fourteen years 316 days, or practically fifteen years. In November, 1913, the officers in the regiment of which I am speaking had paid the full value of their furniture, and the Government is now making 100 per cent. out of them, less the very small amount required for the upkeep. [An HON. MEMBER: "Is it a Scottish regiment?"] Yes, it is a Scottish regiment, and they do not like parting. I beg to ask the Financial Secretary for the War Office if my statement is right or wrong. If it is wrong, in what respect is it incorrect? It is of no use his saying that he has to supply furniture for new barracks. No doubt they are doing that, but at the same time they are making 100 per cent. profit out of the officers, and they are using that money to buy the new furniture. I say it is a very handsome profit they are making.
No.
The right hon. Gentleman is using the money. I do not suggest they have got the 100 per cent. in their pockets, but they are buying new furniture for the new barracks. They are furnishing the new barracks out of money which has already been paid by the officers, and they will be charging the new officers in the new barracks 1d. per day for it, and thus officers will be charged twice over. Now take the question of the mess. The Government, I admit, make a handsome contribution—an allowance for breakages. There is no complaint on that score. But every officer pays 30s. 5d. per year, and, as the peace establishment is twenty-five officers, that gives a total of £38 5s. per year. Therefore the total value of the furniture, less breakages, is paid off in nine years 163 days, or nearly ten years—in other words, it was paid off two years ago. Wilful damage is always paid for by the officer, and giving even an extra year, we find that the War Office made 100 per cent. profit out of the officers for their mess furniture last year. I do not wish to be rude, but I must say I could not imagine a better investment for the Liberal party funds. The quartermaster, as I have said, has to pay 1d. per day for the officers' mess; furniture, as well as 3d. per day for his own, but he never really uses the officers' mess; he simply goes in for three minutes in the morning on business and then comes out again, and he has to pay 26s. a year for that privilege. I think the right hon. Gentleman might let him off that, for he may be a poor man with a family and have to keep up a good appearance. The War Office in 1908 knew that they were in a precarious position, because they wrote to the officers asking for suggested improvements. The inquiries pleased the officers immensely at the time; it pleased them a great deal more than the results, which have been absolutely nil up till to-day. There has, in fact, been no change. Surely the War Office might cut the charge down to ½d. per day and supply carpets and curtains, and other little things, so as to make the job more complete. Why should a field officer be allowed a shelf and a subaltern not? In this connection may I make one suggestion? Something might be done with regard to the telephone. The Postmaster-General, having made a large sum out of the Post Office last year, has now cut down the maximum number of calls to 4,000—a number which is swallowed up almost at once. I think the War Office might do something to help the officers in this respect.
6.0 P.M.
I do not wish to speak at too great a length. I have said nothing about the Special Reserve. The right hon. Gentleman told us, with regard to the Special Reserve, that the large number of 233 officers had joined this year. Does that include the Reserve officers from the Army or not? If it docs, it really means we are in a worse position than before, as we used to have the Reserve officers from the Army without counting the Special Reserve. Now they are passing through the Special Reserve and are being counted twice over. It is not really fair to say that you are getting a large number of new Special Reserve officers if they are really officers passing from the Regular Army. The right hon. Gentleman has admitted a shortage of 13,000, but he seemed to suggest that that did not matter, that it was nothing—that, in fact, it was rather a good thing, as he has much better men in the Territorials to put in their place. Is it the contention of the right hon. Gentleman that a National Reserve 13,000 will make up for the loss on the Special Reserve? He tells us it takes six months' service to train for the Special Reserve. Is he content with a fortnight a year? Is that to be the minimum? It is not provided in the report of the expert officers that it should be reduced, but will the right hon. Gentle- man tell me how many days' military training the National Reserve do? Is it not a fact that they are doing absolutely no training, and that therefore you cannot rely upon these men? They should be treated as what they are—the National Reserve—and they cannot be used to fill up the Special Reserve, which is supposed to be the first thing the Regular Army falls back upon for its supply—at any rate, his predecessor said that would be the case. With regard to the Territorial Force, brushing away all the red herrings which have been thrown across our path, such as abnormal increases and highly satisfactory shooting, I would point out that we get the same excuses every year. Although the numbers may have slightly increased since last year, it must be borne in mind that the real strength of the Army is its weakest point. The figures for the Territorial establishment are as follows: On the 1st January, 1914, we were 63,779 short. That is not what appears in the Memorandum, but it appears in the Army Estimates. As to training, of the 251,706 effectives, 55,018 are inefficient, leaving a total effective strength of 196,688, out of an establishment of 315,480, and all of those are not efficient in musketry. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman one more question, a question which he has not, which he never will, and which he dare not answer.
Then what is the use in asking it?
I am glad to hear that interruption, because I want to show, if not to the country, at any rate, to Members of this House, that the right hon. Gentleman dare not face the facts of the case. We are told that the establishment is 315,485. Is he satisfied with 196,688 effectives? If he is satisfied with them, why does he keep up this large and expensive establishment? If he is not satisfied, let him tell the country what the trouble is, and then he will probably do something to knock out conscription, which is now anathema to him. Let him warn the people and tell them the facts. That is the way to get a real voluntary Service. He always says the Army is perfect, and yet he keeps up the big establishment. He cannot have it both ways. I wish also to refer to the question of rifles and ammunition, which is one of the very unsatisfactory points. I knew it was going to be unsatisfactory the moment the right hon. Gentleman began speaking about the gun, and it appeared that he meant to slide quickly off the topic before there was time to catch him. Perhaps there was wisdom in the right hon. Gentleman's silence about the rifle. Lord Haldane told us that France and Germany were going to have an automatic rifle, or that they had got it. He said that they would get better results, but that we should try to get a better automatic rifle. An hon. Member on this side of the House suggested it might be easier to get a magazine rifle which would be more efficient and less expensive. Lord Haldane said it would be the height of folly to go in for a magazine rifle. On 14th March, 1911, he told us the rifle we were going to have was a magazine, and not an automatic rifle. He apparently changed his mind in two or three months.
Who did?
Lord Haldane, who said he was against an automatic rifle, and promptly told us we were to have a magazine rifle. The present Secretary for War told us on 4th March, 1912, that we possessed the best rifle in the world, a rifle which was preferred to the automatic rifle—that is to say, he was strongly in favour of the magazine rifle. I agree with him, because I believe the new rifle is a very good one. If it is a good one, why has he not issued it to the Army? Is he going to loop the loop also, and go back to the automatic rifle? The official War Office excuse, as it is known in the Army, is that the right hon. Gentleman wants to get an automatic rifle, but the real reason is that he has found that the magazine rifle is in one sense unsatisfactory. We want to know the definite policy of the War Office on this subject. We want a little clear thinking on the subject instead of unclear talking. I remember his telling us that the converted rifle, which the Army now have, was the best rifle in the world. When he spoke the other day he said it was better than any rifle in the world with the exception, perhaps, of the American rifle.
I was referring to the experiments as to accuracy—the Noble Lord must please quote me correctly—in which the American rifle came out first.
I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman that accuracy is a useful thing, and perhaps the first thing in regard to a rifle. If I had the most accurate rifle I should consider I had the best. Last year, when I asked him why, if it was such a good rifle, he did not give it to the Territorial Force, he said he would rather use the old rifle because he had more confidence in it, and it was a better weapon for the Territorial Force. He cannot have it both ways. Why is he giving the converted rifle to the Territorial Force this year? What the right hon. Gentleman said was that the rifle in possession of our troops was a better rifle than that of the other European Powers, and he said we want to have a new rifle because we thought other people were going to get a new rifle. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman, because I think he is quite right in serving out the other one in the meanwhile. Why has the right hon. Gentleman not issued what I call the new experimental rifle? Is it because he is waiting for an automatic rifle? I ask him to give me information on that point, but I am afraid he will not do so. I can tell him the real reason why it is not issued.
He will probably give the official answer that the War Office are waiting to see what they can do with an automatic rifle, but the real answer is that cordite ammunition does not suit the rifle, and that if he is going to use this rifle he has to face a change in the explosive for the whole Army. He knows that cordite is suitable for a hot climate, while the nitro-cellulose powder is not. He has made his rifle first, and then found that the present ammunition does not suit it, because it heats too quickly. He has adopted the best rifle in the world, which is useless simply because he did not carry on the experiments with a new powder for the cartridge. Has he a cartridge which is suitable for the excellent new rifle upon which he has spent a lot of money? If not, I would press him to do something to find a new explosive which will be satisfactory. If he did get a new explosive he could still leave the cordite in India, for it is quite good enough for Indian emergencies. The right hon. Gentleman ought to do something to obtain a powder which suits modern rifles, but the War Office have done nothing; they have no real laboratory, and have done very little in practical experiments with regard to it. If the right hon. Gentleman is still waiting for an automatic rifle, I ask him what kind of powder he will use for it. He knows he would not be able to use cordite. I shall be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman will answer the questions that I have put to him.
The discussion has ranged over a very wide field, from Cavalry to crockery. I am quite sure that the figures given by my Noble Friend (Marquess of Tullibardine) were very convincing to all who followed them. It seems to me that the main consideration for us on the discussion of this Vote in Committee should be the well-worn and much vexed question of Army recruiting, which is not only the essence, but the very essence, of the military question. At the present time I believe that it is giving cause for grave concern to the War Office. I do not say anxiety, but I use the words grave concern. I am afraid that is so. What the causes are, perhaps, it is not profitable to inquire, because the data are very vague. Emigration was given by the right hon. Gentleman as one cause. Perhaps another, which he did not mention, may be the ghastly and menacing condition of Ireland. That is quite possible. At any rate, there is every reason to view the prospect with concern. The right hon. Gentleman made an experiment in advertising the attractions of the Army. I am the last person in the world to decry the sweet uses of advertisement. I believe they are very necessary. It seems to me, after all, that organised publicity is essential to all business enterprise in these days, and on one side the Army is a big business, and therefore needs organised publicity. I am bound to confess that I do not think advertising will solve the problem. I believe that even more depends upon the after-care of the soldier. It is on that point I am speaking to-night, in order to obtain a definite pledge from the right hon. Gentleman.
We require a reassessment of the industrial value of the ex-soldier. That is a most important point. We all know the repute he had in the past. Sometimes he was supposed to be given to drink, in most cases he was supposed to be unfitted for skilled labour, and in many cases, I am afraid, he was unemployed because he was unemployable. But he had not had a chance. Nothing was done under the old system to train him for any skilled trade while he was in the ranks, and nothing was done afterwards to put him in relation to the employers of labour in the locality from whence he came. That has been changed now, and could be changed much more if the War Office only realised the necessity of adapting themselves to the new times and the new conditions which exist. The soldier of to-day has usually an exemplary character when he leaves the ranks. He has been a steady and sober man. He at least has his second or third-class certificate, and very often he has a first-class certificate of education. He is in every way fitted to be a skilled worker and to go into the very front rank of the industrial army after he leaves the Regular Army. But the question is: How is he to be got there? The example has been given, and it ought to be held up and approved by the Secretary of State. I believe that nothing does so much to provide for the after care—that is, the after employment—of the ex-soldier as the formation of Old Comrades Associations in the regiments of the Regular Army. There have been not one but many formed; but, although they have had a somewhat grudging recognition from the War Office, they have had but little encouragement. It is necessary that they should be encouraged, and it is necessary that they should be brought into touch more than they are with military authorities at headquarters. The best example of an Old Comrades Association is that of the Liverpool regiment. I believe it contains several thousand members, who subscribe one day's pay a year in order to keep it going. It has had the devoted service of the officers and of many ex-officers of the regiment. The Liverpool regiment is not particularly lucky in that respect, because I believe the officers of the British Army are prepared to render devoted service for such a cause in every regiment. So much depends on it and so keenly does it appeal to their patriotism, that it is only a question of the elementary organisation of such a body to enable it to work to full advantage.
They have obtained situations practically for the whole of the men leaving the ranks in the city with which the regiment is connected. That is the point. In the first place, it is necessary that the association should establish formal relations with the municipal and local authorities of the borough or county from which it derives its origin and name. Then the association should put itself in connection with the great employers of labour, such as the railway companies and dock companies, and also, of course, with private firms. When a man leaves his regiment he carries with him his employment sheet. That employ- ment sheet gives the very details which every employer wants to know about the character and capacity of the man who applies to him for employment. If there is that bridge built, if there is that connecting link between the regiment on the one hand, and the local authorities and employers of the place with which he is connected on the other, I believe it is possible to absorb the whole of the ex-soldiers as they leave the ranks into the industrial system of the country. I think also there is another need for the supervising care of the War Office. It might well be that each regiment should take a special line of its own and should prepare its men for a particular class of employment. If technical trades are taught to those in the ranks, it would be a great advantage if the regiments could specialise each in their own line. One man who was employed in order to give technical training to the men would be sufficient for a great number, if one trade were specially selected and developed. In that way the guidance of the right hon. Gentleman would be valuable. But I do not want the War Office to put itself in the place? of the Regimental Association. Nothing could be worse. This system, to work, must be decentralised. It must enlist the voluntary aid, even the voluntary enthusiasm, of those who, for reasons of comradeship, wish to give it its full possibility of development. It ought not to be the lines of brigade or division; it must be within the regimental orbit. What the War Office could do here is to supply some central organisation to which application should be made by these regimental associations, so that there should be no overlapping and waste of effort. In the mere matter of teaching, such a committee could obtain the services of those best qualified to teach the special trades which are required for the regiments which wanted to obtain them. Naturally, the authorities in the regiment would have regard to the trade and calling specially connected with the locality from which the recruits were drawn and with which the regiment is associated. All that is wanted is the linking up, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will provide that linking up of the War Office.
I assume that the Committee which is now sitting is making inquiries into the subject, but that Committee may sit a long time, and its Report may be slurred over in the press of other things. To my mind nothing is really so important, so long as the voluntary principle exists, for the enlistment of our Army as to provide for the proper after-employment of soldiers. At this moment I believe there are 700,000 ex-soldiers out of work. It is very difficult to ascertain the facts, but we know that there are a great number. Everyone who cares for the Army must admit that the present state of things is a crying scandal. That ex-soldiers capable of good work, many of them trained to special trades and bearing a good character, should be trudging the high roads of the country, applying to every relief committee for work, and being the great subject of consideration for the unemployed bodies of the country, is nothing less than a scandal. I believe the two principles to be adopted are to organise and to decentralise the system which has been voluntarily adopted and even perfected by many battalions. I am told that there is a great difference between the condition of a battalion where this system is at work and where it does not exist. The men, when they have hope of regular work before them, not only do their military duties better, but take advantage of the opportunities which are offered for technical and special training to the very fullest extent. It seems a simple remedy, but it has never been up to the present brought into being. The War Office has it in its power now practically to secure its universal adoption. I ask the Secretary of State why should there be any delay. It is far more important than many of these subjects on which he has addressed the Committee at length. I am sure it has his sympathy, but I want more than that: I want an assurance that in the War Office itself he will set up that connecting post which is required between the Army system as a whole, which he controls, and the regimental details in which this particular form of association must work to the best advantage. I think the House will consider that this is worthy of their consideration, and I do not for a moment see how any can disapprove what has been done, and what is promised to be done.
I feel sure the Committee will agree with the hon. Member that it is a scandal to this nation and a source of great regret to anyone who has been in the Army when we see old soldiers, sometimes with several medals, walking about the streets unable to obtain any employment. I quite agree with everything that has been said by the right hon. Gentleman, as well as other hon. Members, that one of the reasons why we cannot always have our Army full up to strength is the uncertainty of employment after they have left the Colours. The Noble Lord (Marquess of Tullibardine) called attention to what I think is really a grievance with officers of the Army. When first the question of the supply of furniture was brought in there was a certain number of officers who rather opposed it. Although, I believe, it was my brother who was largely responsible for doing it, I personally opposed it very much indeed. I think up to a certain point I was wrong. But now I am not so sure that I was wrong, because it has resolved itself into this: that, so far as the officer can see, the War Office has made him pay the full value of the furniture which he has got, and means to make him go on paying for the rest of his service. Although he may be mistaken in that, it will take a great deal to make him believe that the War Office is not making a bit out of him somehow. It is curious when one's attention is drawn, as mine has been, to two figures in the Estimates—the first and the last year's, which are mentioned on page 2. In 1905–6 there were 221,300 men, and the cost of the Army was £28,478,863. Now we have practically 35,000 men fewer, and the cost of the Army is £371, 137 more. There may be and no doubt is a very excellent explanation of those figures, and I think the Committee will be glad to have some explanation about them. Of course, aviation has had something to do with it, but I think there must be some other explanation. We have heard a great deal about the shortage of numbers in the last few days, and the right hon. Gentleman seemed to imply that he was not quite satisfied with things as they were. As his speech went on he seemed to warm to the subject, and to think that, after all, all things were not so very bad, and provided we would only leave him in his present position and trust entirely in him, everything would be all right. Without wishing to be in any way controversial, he will understand that I do not want to see him there any longer than we can help, although if that party is to remain in power, there is no one more than the right hon. Gentleman that I should prefer to see there, not only because he has done what he could for the Army, but it is exceedingly pleasant to hear him putting figures in the most attractive light that is possible. We may not agree with them, but it is always a pleasure to hear them put to balance each other in the most attractive way. He started off by telling us that the Army was 8,000 men short. He said also that the shortage had been foreseen. In that case it seems a pity that something has not been done to make up the numbers. His way of settling was to say it does not really matter. We are 8,000 men short, but we have 13,000 in excess in the Reserve. Put the 13,000 against the 8,000, and you have 5,000 more than you want. That is very pretty on paper, but when you come to work it out, I do not believe it is right. In the first place, you must have a large number of immature men in the Army, and until the right hon. Gentleman has been persuaded by the medical authorities to allow boys of nineteen and under to go on active service, notwithstanding the experience of the hon. Member (Mr. John Ward), who appears to have made a false answer, which made him liable to severe penalties—
I was determined to go.
That does the hon. Member all credit. Even allowing for that, there will be, I think, a large number of men in the Army who will not be fit to go on active service; also you must take into account that although Reservists, as a whole, come up when called to the Colours in the most admirable way, there will be a certain number who will not come up, not because they do not want to, but they are probably abroad or something like that. They probably cannot. Further, if they have been five or seven years away from the Colours, a certain number of them will not be fit for active service, and I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is justified in saying that if you have 13,000 too many in the Reserve, you have 5,000 more than you want to make up the numbers. If you make up the numbers at all. I believe it is as much as you can possibly do.
There is a very large surplus in any case. I said that there were 13,000 more than the normal in the Reserve. There is a large surplus of about 10 per cent. to meet the various causes of shortage which have been referred to by the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
I am certainly glad that the right hon. Gentleman has made that clear. I think the Committee will agree with me that these 13,000 would be sufficient to set against the 8,000 the Army is short. There is another matter to which I wish to refer. If you are 8,000 men short now in the Regular Army, it must make a difference to your Reserve. As your men who are at present in the Army pass out into the Reserves, it must be that you will be 8,000 below the normal in the Reserves. That cannot be contemplated with equanimity by the House, and I would urge that the Committee, which is sitting or about to sit, should deal with the question of the employment of soldiers when they leave the Colours. The Committee should be asked to expedite their Report as much as possible, and in the meantime everything possible should be done to make the Army attractive to the civilians to come in. I think the manœuvres have done an enormous amount of good in that way. The civilian population now see what the soldier really is. The civilian sees that he is one of the best fellows we have got in this country. I live close to the manœuvring area, and on all hands I hear how the people in that part of the country appreciated the behaviour of the soldiers. So much for the Regular Army.
The right hon. Gentleman went on to speak of the Special Reserve, and it was instructive to listen to him, because while he was speaking I was not quite sure whether it was due to his natural delicacy of feeling that he did not refer too much to the failure of his predecessor or whether it was due to his natural invincible optimism, and I cannot see from reading the speech which was predominant. He told us they were 13,000 men short, and I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there is not much optimism about that. He said that we have got a National Reserve, an excellent body of men, and he implied that the 13,000 in Class I. of the National Reserve would be available to make up the shortage of the Special Reserve. The right hon. Gentleman must have known that he was pressing the point very far. These National Reservists are no doubt excellent men, but you know nothing about them. You know they have served in the Army, but beyond that you know nothing. They may not have served in the Regular Army. They may have served in the Territorials. Put it at the best. Put it that they have all served in the Army. You know nothing at all about them. They may have been away from the Colours long enough to have forgotten a great deal of what they knew. They have no uniform, no equipment, and no organisation, and, if you wanted the Special Reserve in a hurry, it is idle to say that you could make up the shortage now in that force by taking men from the 13,000 of the National Reserve.
There is great force in what the hon. and gallant Gentleman says, but I do not want him to miss the point. So far as uniform, equipment, and ammunition are concerned, these are all provided for,
May I ask where?
Where are they provided? What organisation have you provided to get them together, and to send them off to the different regiments? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to explain that. He said the Special Reserve was a very good half-way house for the Regular Army—in other words, the Special Reserve is to be the "squeezed lemon" for the Army. It is curious to see how many men go from the Special Reserve to the Regular Army. I see that there were only just over 9,000. It would be interesting to know how many would have gone into the Regular Army anyhow. Now the Under-Secretary of State tells us about the recommendations of the Committee over which he presided. The first of the recommendations on which he laid most stress was that money should be given to the Special Reservists for a "separation fund" as an encouragement to go into the Special Reserve. The money is only to go to the married men. If you want the half-way house to be filled with married men, there will not be much inducement to other men to enter the Regular Army. I want to deal very briefly with the question of the shortage of Territorials. They are 56,000 short. We have been trying without success—and I do not suppose that I am likely to be successful where others have failed—to find out from the right hon. Gentleman; whether he would be ready to send the Expeditionary Force away from this country as soon as the Territorial Army was brought out. I cannot believe that he really would regard the situation with equanimity if the Expeditionary Force were being sent away on an expedition, and we had to depend for the defence of these shores—not primarily, but still we have to count them in—on a branch of the Army which is going to be 56,000 men short of its establishment. How much longer are we to allow it to go on without getting the force up to its proper strength? How much longer can this-country afford to go on with a force which is already 56,000 men short of its establishment? The right hon. Gentleman said in the House the other day that we must look forward to its being still further reduced.
No.
I think the right hon. Gentleman did say so. If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will make the point clear. He was talking about the large increase which had taken place. I believe myself the reason of that increase was because it was winter. Men join much more during the winter months than in summer. They have not got so many amusements in winter as in summer. But the right hon. Gentleman said—and this is what I base my contention on—that the Territorial Force is going to be still further reduced.
"I am persuaded that a great many men whose time is up, must have avoided resigning from n sense of loyalty to the force, but they will resign before very long. I think we must anticipate a very real increase in the number of men leaving the Colours very soon."
Is that not going to reduce them?
The same mistake has been made by several speakers. What I did anticipate, and what my advisers anticipate, is that we must have a considerable increase in the number of men leaving, but that we must also anticipate an increase in the recruiting. The figures we have already had for the last three months do not lead us to anticipate a decrease in the force. We anticipate an increase in the number of men leaving, and also an increase in the number of men joining, and altogether we look forward to an increase of strength.
I think most Members of this House and most people in the country will do their best to get the force up to strength. I do not follow the right hon. Gentleman's explanation. Up till now we have been losing more men than we have been getting in. Last year there were, I think, 37,000 who re-engaged for one year. The right hon. Gentleman anticipates that a large number of these men will resign before very long. If more men resign than we are able to get in, surely the right hon. Gentleman does anticipate that the force will be much smaller.
No.
It seems to me if you have not been able to keep pace with the men going out by getting others in, your force is going to get smaller. I think the right hon. Gentleman has done something to induce men to come in by saying that he will pay an extra £1 to those who go into camp. I am not sure that that will quite meet the point, but it will go a long way, I agree. But I think that a man who gives up his leisure and goes into the Territorial Force should be treated on different lines from others in this country. I do believe that if a man gives up, as he mostly does, all his leisure time to make himself fit to defend the country, he should be given some compensating advantages for it. It is not only the Territorial soldier who is really handicapped by the Territorial Force. It is the small employer also. A man with a big business employing a great number of hands can have holidays so arranged as to enable members of the Territorial Force to have their holidays at a time when they can go into camp, but a small employer cannot do that. I think the right hon. Gentleman would be well advised to do something to help a man like that. I must confess that it seems to me a most serious thing that in the whole of our military forces there should be 77,000 short out of 648,000. That seems to me too big a proportion to regard with equanimity. The right hon. Gentleman started advertising the advantages of the Army, and the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Harry Lawson) has said that that is an admirable thing to do. The Army film, I hope, will be successful.
It will not solve it.
I quite agree, but I hope that it will go some way towards assisting. In reference to the Territorial Force, most of the time of the Inspector-General of the Territorial Force is occupied going about lecturing in the country. I have seen General Bethune, the Inspector-General, in many capacities. I have seen him on the stall in India. I was not fortunate enough to see him on the staff in South Africa. I have seen him commanding troops on Salisbury Plain, and commanding different Territorials; I have both seen and heard him making speeches to Territorials when giving away prizes; and no doubt in every position he shines. But I should hardly have thought that it was the special job of the Inspector General of the Territorial Force to spend most of his time going about making speeches, trying to get recruits for the Territorial Army. I have no doubt that he has got a great many recruits, but I do not believe that it is his job; and, after all, you cannot always have a man like General Bethune, who, I say advisedly, shines in any position in which he is placed, and the right hon. Gentleman must look to some other means of filling up the Territorial Force.
I come now to the vexed question of Territorial Artillery. I have made it my business to see as many officers as I can, not Regular officers, on this point. I have consulted officers commanding Territorial batteries and commanding Territorial brigades, and adjutants, as many as I could see, and one and all were agreed that the Territorial Artillery has made tremendous progress. I do not think that anybody was ever inclined to doubt that. The question which we have to ask ourselves is, Is the standard which they have reached one which would command confidence in any Army in which they might be employed? That is a question which everybody must answer for himself. I have asked many of these Territorial Force officers and adjutants, and they all say the same thing. It is impossible to say whether the standard is high enough. Some say that they do not think so, and some say they do. As far as I can make out, the general opinion seems to be that if you are going to employ the batteries by themselves, and use them as complete batteries, probably the standard was not high enough, and probably it never would be high enough. But on the other hand, if you are going to take them and use them for other batteries, there is no reason why the men in many cases should not be most usefully employed. But, of course, the difficulty there, more than in any other branch of the Territorial Force, is the question of officers. It is a very technical and difficult branch of the Service. If you can say that these officers who go down to practice every other year are the equals, or anywhere near the equals, of officers who go down every year, and have done so probably for twenty years before they command a battery, the only answer is that the officers of the Regular Artillery have been wasting their time, because if they can learn it in a fortnight, what is the good of going down every year for three weeks, and doing it for twenty years before they command a battery?
In addition to that, you give the Territorial batteries at present 200 rounds a year. They probably cannot fire every year, and so you give them 400 rounds for each second year. That means that it is quite possible that an officer or a man will be four years in the Territorial Artillery and never see a round fired. You cannot expect any of those men to be very useful. To show the way that the Territorial Army is treated, I may point out that you think it sufficient to give them 400 rounds to fire every second year, yet you think it necessary to give the Regular Artillery 600 rounds to fire every single year. Is it not absurd to say that you are going to teach the amateur by giving him one-third the number of rounds which you give to the Regulars in order to acquire the same knowledge? To my mind, even if it was possible, as to which everybody will have a different opinion, that the Territorial Artillery should be a really efficient force, the way you treat them, and the amount of ammunition which you give them, is not giving them a fair chance to become so. The right hon. Gentleman referred with satisfaction to the gun with which the Regular Horse and Field Artillery are at present armed. I should have thought that by now it is about time to say that there is no necessity for argument that, as the Artillery have had this gun for something like ten years, the equipment is getting a bit worn.
Regular or Territorial?
Regular—they have had it about ten years. I should not touch the Territorial, which I think a most inefficient gun. This gun is getting a bit worn. The right hon. Gentleman told us with great satisfaction of a certain number of advantages which the gun has got over the French and German gun, and some disadvantages. I do not suppose that he could tell me what these advantages and disadvantages are.
Yes, I can.
All of them?
Yes.
I know that there was one as to which I asked the right hon. Gentleman, and he said that it was not in the public interest to disclose it. I should like to mention it now, as I happen to know what it is, but as the right hon. Gentleman said that it was not in the public interest to disclose it, I shall not do so. But it is about time that the question was very seriously taken up. It is a very serious matter, and the right hon. Gentle- man should direct his attention to it as soon as possible. The right hon. Gentleman has done something towards increasing the pay of the officers. I have no doubt that the officers are very grateful to him, and I wish that it had been done while I was myself still in the Regular Army. There are one or two things which should have been foreseen. The captain of a Horse Artillery battery is going to be very badly treated. When he becomes a major in the Field Artillery he is going to lose a shilling a day. He has 17s., but when he becomes a major commanding a Field Artillery battery he is only going to get 16s. per day. I do not see much incentive to promotion there. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will see his way to giving more money to let the Field Artillery major be better paid.
There is another point. As it is at present, after three years, a captain gets his extra two shillings a day. That works most unevenly. Take my own regiment. The average time necessary to become a captain is eleven or twelve years, and sometimes rather more. That means that a man cannot get the extra pay until he has served fifteen years. That is not fair compared with other regiments, where promotion is quicker, and where an officer may become a captain after, say, nine years' service, and in three years, this captain, therefore, is qualified for the extra pay. If you cannot give them all the extra pay after twelve years, why not make it so that all shall have it at a uniform time, and then do away with what I think is a distinct grievance to the good regiments, because it is mostly in the good regiments that promotion is slow. I believe that there is very much more to be done before we can really say that our military defences are in the most efficient state. We cannot, of course, discuss the question very much, because we have not had the Report of the Defence Committee. Until we know that, it is very difficult to discuss any question of policy, but I believe that there are many ways in which the whole question of Army details ought to be improved, and though the right hon. Gentleman has, I know, done as much as he can in the year, I hope that he will not rest until he has removed every anomaly that he can hear of.
There are some questions which I should like to put to the Secretary of State for War. The hon. Member for Mile End asks that something should be done to set on foot as rapidly as possible the organisation for the employment of the ex-soldier.
Linking up.
I asked the other day whether the Report of Sir Edward Ward's, Sub-Committee would be published and laid before the House. I was in hopes that it might be in print, so that Members could have had it before this discussion. I would like to know when we may expect to have that Report. I believe that it would have greatly assisted Members who-are interested in the point referred to by the hon. Member for Mile End, and enabled them to see that the War Office are doing something, and also to see what they propose to do in future. I did not understand definitely the other day whether it was intended to lay the Report, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give us a definite reply on the point today. The next point is in reference to promotion from the ranks, which was dealt with on the last occasion when the right hon. Gentleman made his statement. Apparently the scheme has been entirely suspended, because I understand that the promotions last year were fewer than they were the year before. The scheme was a suggestive one, not because it was sufficiently broad, but because it indicated a change of mind and policy. But, of course, it becomes of no importance at all if it is going to be kept back for ever.
It came into force on the 1st of January.
7.0 P.M.
There is one other matter to which I wish to refer. I have been in correspondence with officers who made the suggestion to me that something should be done to clear up the point in reference to officers' pay, as put forward in the Army Order No. 1, of the 1st January this year. I dare say the right hon. Gentleman knows to what I refer. Are we to understand that the Order excludes the district officers of the Royal Artillery and the coast battalion officers of the Royal Engineers. The other questions I desire to put are: (1) Are these officers included in the term "Officers of our Regular Army," as stated in the first paragraph of the preamble to Army Order No. 1, of the 1st January, 1914? (2) Is is not the fact that they are genuine combatant "officers from the ranks," and, if so, why are they excluded from the benefits conferred on other officers of similar ranks, by the Army Order in question? (3) Is it now intended to include these officers in the scope of the increased emoluments conferred by the Army Order under review? I should like an answer to those questions.
I want to join in the protest of my hon. and gallant Friend, and also my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham, that we have not had an opportunity of hearing a statement from the Prime Minister with respect to the Sub-Committee of the Committee of National Defence. I think the right hon. Gentleman must realise that not only in discussing the Army, but also the Navy Estimates, we labour under a very considerable disadvantage. We are grateful to the Prime Minister for answering the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Fare-ham, and stating that the Committee have not altered the number of possible invaders, but still maintain it at 70,000. May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should try and use his influence with the Prime Minister, when we again discuss the Army and Navy Estimates, in order that we may have an opportunity of some discussion on the policy of the National Defence Committee, without which it is not possible, on the Army and Navy Estimates, to review the whole of our policy of defence throughout the Empire. On this occasion I should not be in order in discussing the Imperial Defence Committee but may I say that I very much regret that the inquiry of the Sub-Committee has been confined solely to the question of Home defence; and I earnestly hope that another Committee will be set up to inquire, not only into the question of Home defence, but into the whole of our Imperial defence. Hon. Members in this House, as a rule, mainly criticise our preparations for Home defence. I think that some of us certainly do so because we believe that our Home Defence Army is neither capable in quality or in quantity of meeting an invading force of 70,000. Nor do I think for one moment that it fulfils the conditions which the Prime Minister laid down in his speech of the 29th July, in which he said:— a question to which he refused an answer. I am not going to ask him the same question. I do not know whether the result of the recent inquiry has been that the policy of His Majesty's Government has been changed, and that a certain portion of the Expeditionary Force is to be retained for the purpose of Home defence in this country; but I should like to point this out: If, as a result of the inquiry, it has been found necessary for the safety of this country to retain a portion of the Expeditionary Force here, it more than justifies every word Lord Roberts has said on this matter, and also more than justifies what he and those who think with him have said on many occasions, that we cannot and ought not to rely entirely upon a half-trained body such as the Territorial Force. May I express the hope that neither the right hon. Gentleman nor Lord Haldane will again try, if I may use such an expression, to deceive the country by saying that we have 400,000 men to meet an invasion by 70,000? We have 400,000 men, possibly, on paper, but not available for a central force. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman this question: What number out of that 400,000 men he will get as a central striking force?
For myself, I do not believe that you will obtain—I am taking the old condition of things, with the Expeditionary Force out of the country—anything like sufficient men to fulfil the conditions of three to one, as you have contended. There is one other matter in connection with Home defence which, to my mind, is a great weakness. It is not the right hon. Gentle man's fault, it is not the fait of the War Office, but it is the fault of our system, that the Territorials are unable to manœuvre in very large numbers—that is to say, that if there were mobilisation on a large scale — I will put the central force, if the right hon. Gentleman likes, at 100,000 or 200,000—the numbers do not very much matter—there would be most appalling confusion, inevitably. In the recent Army manœuvres the manner in which the Staff carried out their duties was very severely criticised. I may say that not only were they criticised by military correspondents at the time, but they were criticised by a great number of officers who took part in the manœuvres, and who told me that some of their duties were very inefficiently performed. If that happens with the Regular Army on manœuvres with, I think, 48,000 men—
Forty-five thousand eight hundred.
Forty-five thousand eight hundred men, with the best staff officers that the Army can produce, and men thoroughly trained, what would happen if there was an Army of 200,000 with all the best officers and staff officers in this country away? I ask the right hon. Gentleman what arrangement has been made for providing a general officer commanding, with a proper and efficient staff, for the central force, for he is bound to have a central striking force for Home defence.
I will reply at once. The hon. Gentleman bases all this attack upon an article by the military correspondent of the "Times."
No.
On the contrary, I may be permitted to say I prefer the opinion of my own expert military authorities to that of the authority referred to.
The right hon. Gentleman as usual begs the question. I simply stated what I believed to be the fact, and he gets up and does not answer the question I put to him. I asked him a very straightforward question, and he has not answered it in any sort, kind, or manner. I asked the right hon. Gentleman what provision has he made with respect to the officer commanding the central or striking force of the Home Defence Army, and what provision has he made as to providing that officer with an efficient staff? That is a plain question which has nothing to do with the answer which the right hon. Gentleman has given. Unfortunately our military forces are lamentably short. I would point out to the House that the recruiting of the Regular Army and for the Territorial Force are two entirely different matters. For the Regular Army you want to attract men who desire employment, whilst with regard to the Territorial Force you want to attract the employers in order to get them to allow their employés to join the Territorial Force, and also give them leave for a fortnight's training. I am not going to criticise the methods of recruiting which the right hon. Gentleman tells us he has modernised by advertisements in the "Daily News" and by cinematograph. I think the method was described yesterday by an hon. Member opposite as a colossal failure. I, however, wish the right hon. Gentleman every success.
We notice also in the right hon. Gentleman's Memorandum that, after careful consideration, he had come to the conclusion that the Territorials did not enlist for pecuniary advantage. It is very satisfactory that the right hon. Gentleman, after careful consideration, comes to that conclusion, but I think that any Member of the House who is acquainted with the Territorial Force could have told him that a very long time ago and saved him trouble in this matter. I am afraid that I cannot agree with my hon. and gallant Friend with regard to the bounty. I firmly believe that the £200,000 which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to give in bounties is an absolute waste of money, and will not get him one single recruit. I do not think that the difference of £1 or 10s. is in the least likely to make a man enlist. The right hon. Gentleman might have utilised this money in another direction, and given the employers some of it —which I would sooner have seen—though I dare say hon. Members below the Gangway opposite do not approve of the suggestion. After all, it is the employer who suffers the greatest loss. The man goes away for the fortnight and the employer has to give' him leave, and a great number pay full wages for the time.
Some do not pay anything.
I said a great number pay full wages; some may not, but I know a certain number who do.
Some even discharge their men for going.
Very likely that is so. What you want to do is to encourage the employer to allow his men to go. When a man goes away to camp somebody else has to do his work. By this method of bounty you do not solve that difficulty. There is another point which I would commend to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. I know a man in London who belongs to one of the Territorial regiments. He happens to live outside the area of his recruiting ground and goes down three or four days per week to drill at a cost, roughly speaking, of about Is. 6d. in fares. His employer will not let him go for more than a week to camp, and yet that man, who has attended thirty or forty drills during the year, does not get this bounty because he is only a week in camp. The man who has done just ten drills and does not take half so much interest in the work gets the bounty for fifteen days in camp. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he cannot take into account the number of drills as well as the number of days in camp. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the question of the employment of soldiers referred to by the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Harry Lawson), and I believe he will solve the recruiting difficulty for the Regular Army as soon as he solves the question of employment. As regards recruiting for the Territorial Army, I would suggest that instead of giving bounties he should, as one hon. Member suggested, come out into the open and tell the country, frankly, that more men are wanted for the defence of this country—Home defence, and that unless you get them the country is not safe, and I believe if he did that he would obtain, all the men he requires.
This Debate has ranged over a number of topics of varying magnitude, with some of which I will deal. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will reply later to various points, and for that reason I will pass over what has just been said by the hon. Member. I come to the remarks of the Noble Lord the Member for Perthshire.
I desire to apologise for one statement. I said 100 per cent., while it should be somewhere about 10 per cent.
The Noble Lord's figure did astonish me. I was hardly able to follow his figures at all, and I hardly think he could expect me to deal with them, suddenly delivered as they were. The Noble Lord raised this point previously by way of question, and I asked him to supply information. No doubt, owing to pressure of other affairs, he neglected to do so, and if I do not give as complete and crushing an answer as I should like, that is the reason. The Noble Lord has reduced his figure to 10 per cent. which he says is the profit which, in its meanness, the War Office is making out of the officer. I challenge that figure completely and absolutely. If you take the ordinary officer's quarters, the rent charged is 30s. per year, or a Id per day, which is calculated to give, not 10 per cent. but 2 per cent. interest on the capital outlay. The capital outlay on furniture for ordinary officers' quarters is not £17 but £15. The present rate charged was arrived at after most careful inquiry by Lord Stanley's Committee. I do not think any reason has been brought forward to show that the figure has become incorrect in the interval. It is, of course, possible that there has been some fractional change, but it is hardly reasonable to ask that we should change it to a charge of decimals, and I think we are fairly entitled to leave it as it is. I would point this out, that every committee which has sat at the War Office has deprecated these persistent and frequent attempts to complicate the regulations and amounts of allowances. The bringing forward of special cases where the thing does not work correctly to a fraction gives not only very great trouble, but does great harm in the Army at large. Quite recently the Army Council in giving an increase of officers' pay, has formulated the decision that they will treat all these matters in a broad and equitable spirit. In this particular case, if the Noble Lord is able to satisfy me that something inequitable does exist, I promise him that a remedy shall be found. The Noble Lord does approach these matters in a reasonable spirit, and I am quite sure he will come to reason in this matter, and that we shall have a satisfactory conclusion on the controversy.
The hon. Member for Preston (Major Stanley) referred to the total of the Estimates, and asked how it was we were paying so much more for less men. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will look at the details on the same page he will see one of the reasons that there has been a very considerable expenditure on the Territorial Force as compared with the Volunteers. There is, as well, the enormous rise in prices, the growth in the number of officers, the growth of departments, and there is, lastly, the necessary outlay upon aviation. I only mention those to show some of the causes why it is that there is more expenditure on fewer men. A very striking feature of this Debate has been the remarkable unanimity on all sides in the attitude taken up on the question of the employment of discharged soldiers. All are agreed as to the pernicious effect of the blind-alley element in a military career, and the un-desirableness from every point of view of seeing the old soldier begging his bread, or even worse, in the streets of the country. We all agree. The hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Harry Lawson) made this afternoon an extremely interesting and valuable contribution to this subject. It was not the only one, but his speech was a very original one, though I do not share his view that the Committee sitting on this subject is going to be lengthy in its deliberations or that the Report will be too long delayed. I think he would be rendering a valuable public service if he were to appear before that Committee and give it the benefit of the advice he gave to us this afternoon. I have been asked by my right hon. Friend to deal with one matter which was not dealt with yesterday, and that is as to the question of a shortage of officers on mobilisation. The point of the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Lee) in his question was, "What would happen in connection with officers if we had to mobilise for war?" As far as the peace establishment is concerned, that, of course, is more than full, and there is even a small margin of superfluity.
What happens when you mobilise for war is that a number of officers are withdrawn for the staff appointments, and you want, apart from that, an increase in officers for an increased number with units. In our Army, as in every Continental Army, there is an immediate deficiency, but I think I can show that that deficiency will almost immediately be made up. [AN HON. MEMBER: "How many is it?"] My point is that in the nature of things you have to take away those officers and replace them, and more than replace them by others. It is apparent that that takes place in the Germany Army or in the French Army and equally with our own. I think it would be undesirable to give an exact calculation of the number of transfers which take place. What will happen will be that arrangements will be made for supplying those officers from the Special Reserve, and more particularly from the unattached list. I think we may look on it as a fortunate thing that the unattached list does show such signs of prospering and increasing. Beyond that there is the reserve of officers.
What is that unattached list?
I mean the Supplementary List of the Special Reserve, those who are not in units.
Will they be sufficient to fill up the 460 vacancies.
I am not prepared to describe all the methods which the General Staff intends to employ. I am assured that in their opinion there will be no difficulty in supplying the needs of the Expeditionary Force.
When the hon. Gentleman speaks of Special Reserve officers, does he mean the Special Reserve lists of the different regiments and battalions?
I mean those on the unattached list—those not specially attached to units, and it is possible some officers may be taken from their units.
Will the battalions of the Special Reserve have sufficient officers?
I will come to the point of what will happen to the Special Reserve officer later. It really, however, is impossible, even if I carried all the secret arrangements in my head, to describe precisely the machinery which it is intended to employ on mobilisation. As to the Expeditionary Force, there would be no difficulty whatsoever, but there might be some slight difficulty as regards certain Departmental services. When you come to the Special Reserve, and consider how that is to be filled up, I admit that it is not nearly such an easy matter. I am afraid I must ask the hon. Member for Fareham to be content with an assurance that arrangements have been made by which the difficulty will be met.
I did not expect to get an answer.
Then you will not be disappointed.
Not at all.
The hon. Member can hardly expect me to tell him the exact number of officers that will come into each part of the Special Reserve; but I fail to see what greater satisfaction could be given in any answer across the Table than the assurance which I have offered.
I did not want the hon. Gentleman to give me the exact figures. He says that the Expeditionary Force will be completely filled up. We grant that. We do not know where the officers will come from, but we accept the hon. Gentleman's statement. But will he then be able to fill up the Special Reserve with the requisite number of officers to enable it to discharge its duty of preparing drafts for the front, and generally to be effective for the purposes of war? The hon. Gentleman gives us to understand that the position is not very satisfactory. Will he be able to fill up the full complement of officers?
I do not want to put the matter in too favourable a light; I can only say that preparations have been made which it is believed will be successful. No difficulty is admitted on that point. It is believed by those who are responsible for preparing these matters that the officers can and will be obtained. As regards the shortage of officers on mobilisation, that refers back to the original question as to our sources of supply of officers. Whatever charges may be brought against this Administration, at any rate a considerable amount has been done to develop those sources of supply and to discover new ones. The Special Reserve and the Territorial Force are contributing officers, and figures are given in the Secretary of State's Memorandum. There is also the Officers' Training Corps, which is an entirely new creation, and is proving a great success. The position in regard to Sandhurst is not so satisfactory. A Committee is going to consider the matter with a view to discovering what exactly is the hindrance to its smooth working, and, if necessary, offering improved inducements. I believe myself that the position has been greatly improved by the officers' pay scheme and by proposals in regard to promotion from the ranks. With regard to the latter, we have not yet discovered what its full effect will be. The hon. Member for Fareham rightly said that there was no difference of opinion as to the end we wanted to achieve under the scheme for promotion from the ranks, but there might be some friendly interchange of views as to the means to be pursued. The hon. Gentleman expressed the fear that under that scheme we might encourage Sandhurst failures to find an easy way into the commissioned ranks of the Army. That has been very carefully considered from the beginning, and I do not think that it would be allowed to happen. There are means by which it could be prevented. The scheme is not intended to benefit that sort of applicant.
I do not want to discourage the young lad who fails at Sandhurst from entering the Army by another way. That is not my point. What I am afraid of is that the best type of sergeants will be discouraged.
I understood the hon. Member to complain that the scheme would lead to the encouragement of the Sandhurst failure. I understand now that he says that you would not be able to get the sergeant because he would be too old. I venture to differ from him to this extent: I do not think you want the sergeant at all. I do not think the sergeant is likely to make a good officer. What you want is to get the good man at an earlier age, before he becomes a sergeant, and it is just that that we shall be able to do under this scheme. With regard to those already in the ranks, it has been decided that the serving soldier shall be allowed to have the benefit of both arrangements, and that the benefit of the new scheme shall not be confined to those who have enlisted since the beginning of this year.
Have the Army Council drafted any definite scheme in regard to this subject? It is a little confused, but it seems as if the sergeant is going to be practically excluded.
The sergeant class will not be excluded. As far as anyone now serving is concerned, he will get the extra advantage of having the benefit of both arrangements. There is no sort of question of excluding the sergeant, but the question of age comes in. Several Members have brought forward cases of officers who may be considered to have been hardly treated by the new pay scheme. It is not to everybody that an increase of pay has been given by that scheme. It was never intended from the very first that an increase should be given to everybody. The main object of that scheme was to provide a living wage in the early stages of a man's career in the Army. It was not to spread evenly over the whole mass of officers a certain sum of money so that everybody should get a little more. With regard to particular cases of alleged hardship or grievance, they will be collected and considered on their merits, and dealt with in the Department as soon as possible. It is not easy to foresee, when you make a change of this kind in a very carefully balanced scheme of pay, how it will affect the relative status of everybody concerned. Various cases have been brought to our notice, and they will be considered, and such as deserve remedy will receive it with as little delay as possible.
The case of the Horse Artillery captain?
That will be considered with the others, certainly. It is in the list of special instances to be considered.
Can the hon. Gentleman say why the extra cost of living in London is disregarded in the case of Foot-guard officers, who are actually receiving less pay now than Line officers?
The hon. Member is asking me to deal with one particular case on its merits. I prefer not to deal with one case alone. Various cases have already been considered and will be considered further. I have deliberately omitted to deal with a great number of points which have been raised, because I know that many other hon. Members wish to address the Committee.
Is it intended shortly to issue Sir Edward Ward's Report?
I can assure the hon. Member that he will have that. I do not know what precise significance he attaches to the word "shortly," but I do not think the Report will be issued until Sir Matthew Nathan's Committee has finished its labours.
I do not apologise for going back to a subject referred to in the opening remarks of the Secretary of State. In the past it has been our regimental officers who have pulled this country through its wars, and I am one of those who believe that they will do so in the future. As long as I am in this House I shall be in favour of giving every consideration to these officers, whom the men will gladly follow if they are given a proper chance. It is not giving the Reservist a proper chance to call him up, perhaps have him in his uniform for two days, and send him in to the fighting line before the end of the week. There is no greater admirer of the Reservists than myself. I have been proud to have them under my command, and should be only too glad to have them under my command again. But it is not right to have the enormous number of Reservists that we have in our Expeditionary Force at the present time, if that Expeditionary Force is to be sent off at a moment's notice. We ought not to have in the Expeditionary Force Reservists who have been away from the Colours more than two years. We must do something to increase the establishment of the Infantry battalion. I want the Committee to understand what really our Expeditionary Force is. The Secretary of State the other day led the House to believe that he had an Expeditionary Force of six divisions amounting to 162,000 men. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman did not wish to deceive the House, but six divisions amount not to 162,000, but to 117,006 or 118,000.
The figures for six divisions are inaccurate, but the actual force that would be available within a day or two would be 162,000.
I do not wish to take any unfair advantage of the right hon. Gentleman. I have no doubt that what he states is perfectly true. I believe that he does not wish to give the impression that all these 162,000 men are in our first fighting line. He is perfectly correct in saying we have an Expeditionary Force of 162,000, but, of course, when you consider the fighting line, one has, to a certain extent, to consider the Infantry that is going to be put into the first line. I would like to support my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Preston, who pressed upon the Government the necessity of keeping up to date the armament of the Artillery. Those of us who are Infantry soldiers, would, I am sure, wish our Artillery to have the best armament possible. We know what support it has given us in the past, and we feel confident that, if properly armed, it will give us that support in the future. It is entirely the duty of the Secretary of State for War to see that it is armed in the best possible manner. I wish to turn to the point of view of the Infantry. I have said that there are these six divisions of Infantry which, as the House knows, consist of three brigades of Infantry and certain other forces, such as the Field Artillery Brigade, the Howitzer Brigade, the Engineers, etc. The number of Infantry in one of these divisions works out, I believe, at roughly 19,563. We also know that in the Expeditionary Force we have one brigade which, I believe, is attached to headquarters, and one battalion which is attached somewhere else; some Artillery and other units. I believe that that really means 79,000 men to fill up our Infantry of the rank and file.
As the War Secretary told us yesterday, or the day before, at manœuvres this year we had in England 46,000 men, and in Ireland 12,000 men, a total of 58,000. The figures which I have given, 79,000 out of the 162,000 of the Expeditionary Force, works out at about half. The upshot of it is to make up the 79,000 men who are going abroad we should need 29,000, and I say that is too great a preponderance of Reservists in our Expeditionary Force. I have put these figures as plainly as I can, and I have endeavoured to show the Reservists' standpoint. Taking them as a whole, they are as near the position as it is possible to get. It does seem to me, in view of all these things, that it is necessary to increase the establishment in order that we should not have this great influx of Reservists at the time of trial. I know it may be said that we can say all this, but that it is going to cost more if we are going to have more men in the fighting line. Well, I am one who wishes our Army, when it is called upon, to have the best chance it can of fulfilling its duty, and I feel sure that if this House really appreciates the position, and really believes that we should have an Expeditionary Force, it will do whatever is possible to increase the number of the men who are serving. If the Secretary of State for War would put the figures before us I believe that Members on all sides of the House would support him in doing all that is necessary to make the Expeditionary Force a more efficient force than it is. It is unfair to the officers, who give all the time they do to military studies, to have them impeded by being called upon to use up their time and to be handicapped by having to take charge of men who are not fit. I go further, and say that it is unfair to the men serving that they should be delayed and kept back owing to unfitness. It is not want of willingness on the part of the Reservists, but it is on account of the Reservist not having had the time necessary to get him into the saddle and train. In these observations, I am sure, I shall have the support of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. John Ward). I know he would wish our Reservists to be given the chance of getting properly fitted, and they really should not be so largely required in the First Line of Defence as they are now. I see the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War is good enough to nod his head, so I hope that my remarks will be taken notice of by him.
I would like a word in respect to the ex-soldier, with whom I have very great sympathy. If we are to increase the number of men in our standing Army, we shall have to see to it either that we give them longer employment in the Army or that we do what we can when they leave the Army to help them to get into civil employ-employment. We have at the present moment to recruit a great number of men who have no trade and who perhaps are not the pick of our working classes. They are men whom the Army training greatly benefits. I do not wish to run them down in any way, for they have not had the same advantages as others, but that is no reason why they should be allowed to fall behind in the race. They have come forward and become our soldiers. They have done their duty as well as a great many men who came from a better position. It is our duty, it seems to me, to raise these men so that they shall not go back to where they were. We owe these men a great debt of gratitude for coming forward and preserving our Army on a voluntary basis. The hon. Member for Stoke has supported me on previous occasions when I have said that if we wish to preserve our Army on a voluntary basis we have got to look after our men and treat them fairly, so that they may afterwards have opportunities in civil life. Personally, I am all for preserving the voluntary basis of our Army. If you wish to do that, and to have an Expeditionary Force that will give proper value for the money spent on it, then this question and other questions must be looked into.
8.0 P.M.
I give every support to what has fallen from the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Harry Lawson) in regard to the formation of Old Comrades' Associations. Anything that can be done in that way to keep employers in touch with the regiments in which are men from their districts is good work, and it would also be well if it was known that the Army was giving facilities to the men in the ranks to keep up a continuity with their districts, so that they might be traced by employers. If, too, while they are in the Army they can be trained in the particular branch of the work most suited to the district from whence they come, we would be doing much to encourage not only the men I have mentioned, but other men to join the Army, for all would know that they were being taken an interest in in the district from where they enlisted. In all this they would be more able, on return to civil life, to get employment. Again, if we want more recruits for our Army—and it seems that we do—we shall not only have to look to the present methods, but to consider others. Every year we have to employ a great number of men in our Civil Service. If it is necessary to have greater numbers than we can get by the ordinary method of recruiting, we should look at other methods and see if it is not possible to have a corps in which the members are not to be used for foreign service, but which might be used for men to come in for a shorter period of training. I believe if we had such a corps we should attract men to the ranks, as I do not suppose many men would be unwilling to give their services to the country and to be in the forefront of the line if they knew they had not to give the long period of service they have now. I hope that we may be able to institute in this country certain short service battalions, for entry to which you might have examination. This is not the time for me to deal in detail with these matters. I do think that we might institute shorter service battalions in which the men who serve might afterwards be given employment in our Civil Service.
We know that at present there is certain discontent in the Post Office. The Post Office does try to employ as many ex-soldiers as possible. One reason why they cannot give more employment is the number of telegraph boys who enter upon what is known as the blind-alley service. Why should not these boys put in some time in the Army? I could give other illustrations, but I hope I have said enough to say that I fully appreciate that there are difficulties in obtaining greater numbers on the establishment of our Regular Army. I personally feel that it is very necessary we should try, without going into details on the point, all methods by which the Secretary of State for War might undertake to do these things. I can only say, in conclusion, that I feel that advances have been made, but because advances have been made that is no reason why the Secretary of State for War should talk about everything being all right. I believe we are more likely to get the country to take an interest in the Army and to get what is right and best if the truth only is put before them. I regret that anything should be said to the country which is not absolutely the truth. I do not for a moment wish to say that in any remarks the Secretary of State for War made he wished to mislead anybody; but what he said was open to misrepresentation, and I do hope when he speaks again he will touch upon these points and give them consideration.
I wish to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can tell us—and this affects the Army very much—whether the Regular Army is going to be used for the coercion of the loyalists in Ulster? That is the question which I wish to put to the right hon. Gentleman.
Or to suppress the Labour movement in labour disputes.
I do not quite see what that has to do with it.
Obviously the object of the hon. Member for Stoke is to show what the line of argument the hon. Member is now using would speedily develop into. I must ask the hon. Member not to pursue that matter.
I am very sorry if I have transgressed. I tried to ask a question on this point and I was told it was a matter for general debate. This is the first opportunity I had of asking that question. The next question I would like to ask is whether the Secretary of State can tell us definitely, now that he has had time to think it over, what is the real number of men that could keep invaders out, and what he considers to be sufficient training for the Expeditionary Force in these islands, which the First Sea Lord said was necessary? The Territorial Force cannot come under this condition, nor the Special Reserve, and I do not think there will be left any of the Regular Army of the Line in these circumstances. The Secretary of State for War cannot tell us whether he is going to send these 162,000 men of the Expeditionary Force away at once, even if they are urgently needed. Therefore I conclude we may fairly consider that the Expeditionary Force could not go.
Oh, no.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say if there was urgent need for it that the Expeditionary Force will go?
I have been asked this question before. I certainly will say nothing of the kind, but I certainly say that the hon. Gentleman must not assume it would not.
I am assuming that if it could be sent, the right hon. Gentleman would be only too pleased to say so. But he cannot say so, and we must really conclude it could not.
Oh, no.
At all events, that is very probable it would not be able to start, and therefore there is an Expeditionary Force, which is supposed to be one of our safe- guards, it is fraudulent. It is an Expeditionary Force that cannot go on an expedition, and, of course, the reason is that we have not got a Home Army to take its place. There is no doubt, about that. In the Regular Array we are admittedly short by 8,000 men, and, although we have 267,000 men with the Reserve of the Regular Army, then you have got 63,000 men in the Special Reserve, I want to know as how the right hon. Gentleman is going to devise garrisons for this country, which, I understand, would take up about 200,000 men? How is it going to provide this with our present military forces, in view of the fact that we have such a very large number of immature men and boys unfit for wax, both in the Army and the Special Reserve, and the Territorial Force? He told us that, although we were short of men in the Special Reserve by 13,000 men, that we had gained an equal number—13,000—to the National Reserve, which had signed on to go out and fight in any part of the world. I do not think that is a fair thing to do. These men of the National Reserve are old soldiers; they have done their share, and to back up a system of Special Reserve, which the right hon. Gentleman himself admits has broken down, you are going to put it upon men to come forward in their patriotism to do an extra share after they have done the best that men can do by joining the Regular Army. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman also that in regard to the Territorial Force he says we are 56,000 men short, but he makes that up by 45,000 men of the National Reserve, who have made an honourable promise to come up and defend the country in time of need.
I ask him again, is it fair to ask men like that who have done their share in defence of the country to back up a rotten system—rotten in all ways? You cannot find the men and you cannot train them, not because the men are not good fellows, but that they do not have a chance under our industrial system. The right hon. Gentleman knows it as well as I do. It is not the fault of the employers nor of the men of the country. You are going to give them £1. What good is that going to do? Is it going to make up for all the sacrifices they make, for all the time they lose and all the trouble they take, and for their personal expenses? Is it going to make up anything to the employer? Oh, what humbug it is! How well the right hon. Gentleman knows. I hope he will not think I am making a personal attack upon him. I know the right hon. Gentleman is Cabinet-tied. He would do right if he could, but he cannot. I do not wish to blame the right hon. Gentleman. I blame the party system which prevents the right hon. Gentleman from telling the country. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman something about civilians in time of war. He very kindly sent me a Blue Book upon the question, and it says that if civilians in territory not in occupation on the approach of the enemy, spontaneously taking up arms to resist the invading troops, without having had time to organise themselves, in accordance with Article I, shall be regarded as belligerents if they carry arms openly, and if they respect the laws and customs of war. Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to tell me that if this country was invaded that anybody who could shoot and who begged, borrowed, or stole, or hired a rifle and went to fight for his country—that if such a person were caught he would not be stuck up against a tree and shot? Would not the general officer commanding the troops in the enemy's country say "You had plenty of time to organise your-selves."
It being a Quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put.
Private Business
London County Council (General Powers) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
The House will notice that, in connection with the three Bills set down for consideration, there are Motions standing in my name of a somewhat unusual character, and I think it is due to the House that I should explain the reason why these Motions are put down. These three Bills deal in part with what is an important and a new question. They would, in the ordinary course, if passed on their Second Reading, have gone to the Local Legislation Committee for consideration upstairs, but, in view of the importance of the subject, I consulted the Chairman of that Committee to ascertain his view upon the matter. He informed me that, in view of the heavy work which that Committee had before it this Session in dealing with the ordinary matters of local legislation, he thought it was desirable that this special matter should be dealt with in some other way. With his concurrence, I have put down this Resolution, that if the Bills are referred back by the Local Legislation Committee to the Committee of Selection, that Committee shall appoint a Select Committee consisting of seven members to deal with them. It seems to me that it is most desirable that if any Clauses are inserted dealing with celluloid they should be dealt with in such a way as to save the people interested from the necessity of having to appear Session after Session. If the matter is dealt with in this way, it will be brought into a standardised form. I might also inform the House that I have, with the assent of the Chairman of the Selection Committee, asked the hon. Baronet, the Member for Doncaster (Sir C. Nicholson), who was for many years the Chairman of the Local Legislation Committee, if he would be good enough to act as Chairman of the Special Committee, and he has given his consent to do so if the Committee of Selection so desire. That will ensure, if the House adopts the Second Reading of these Bills, that they will go to a Committee which will deal adequately with them, and I think that arrangement will give satisfaction in all quarters of the House. I will only say further that I notice that the opposition is not to the Second Reading of the first two Bills, but only to the parts dealing with the subject of celluloid. Under these circumstances, I would suggest, if there is any desire to discuss this matter, that the Second Reading might be allowed to pass, and the discussion on celluloid articles might be taken on the Motion that those particular parts should be omitted.
Will an hon. Member, who has an objection to the Second Reading on other grounds, be entitled to discuss the Bill on the Second Reading?
Certainly; I was not aware of objections on any other point other than that relating to celluloid.
I beg to move, as an Amendment, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
This House has already been troubled on two separate occasions with the arguments for and against this particular Bill. Less than ten months ago we had a Division here, and a very strong discussion in reference lo the Bill now before us, and by the very substantial majority of 127 votes to 47 the House rejected the Bill. It seems somewhat strange that a Bill having the same provisions should now be brought before the House, and should have associated with it a memorandum which is not correct in its terms, inasmuch as it makes a Departmental Committee that was appointed state that this Bill is in accordance with the recommendations of that Committee. I think I shall be able to show that the recommendations of the Departmental Committee have been absolutely ignored in connection with the proposals of this Bill, and, further than that, I shall be able to show that they have done expressly what the Departmental Committee said there was no occasion to do. In this very great industry many hon. Members are inclined to imagine that articles connected with celluloid touch only very small manufactures, whereas, as a matter of fact, I will undertake to say that in the house of every hon. Member, and almost on every person here to-night, there are articles of celluloid. Celluloid enters into all the new industries that are being developed in connection with the motor-car trade, submarines, and aeronautical work, and therefore to make any attempt which is going to check the use of what is a somewhat new substance, and penalise those who propose to handle and deal with it, is to keep back an industry in the same manner as Parliament has kept back industries before, owing to the want of knowledge exercised by those who framed the legislation of the day.
We have suffered in the past from what may be called interference with the manufacturing industries of this country. We lost entirely the position we ought to have held as an engineering country concerned with the industries of automobiles owing to the legislation of that day having made it necessary for every vehicle that travelled by means of anything other than a horse to have a man in front of it with a red flag, and then it must not exceed a speed of five miles an hour. That illustration is well known to every one of us, because for years while other nations were having motor cars running about we could not use one. I remember some years ago I lectured in various parts of the country in order to obtain from the mayors of different corporations petitions to Parliament to get that legislation altered. I ask the House of Commons to-day not to do anything which must harass an industry, and which must hold back the manufacturers of this country. In the petition put forward, and in the Bills proposed, the promoters speak of celluloid as though it was the most inflammable material that had ever been manufactured, and this Bill, promoted by the London County Council, endeavours to lead people to believe that this very dangerous substance is responsible for such a large number of fires during the last few years that special legislation is necessary. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] The hon. Member says "Hear, hear," and I presume that he has wider knowledge of the subject than I happen to possess.
You might just as well ask for special precautions to be taken to prevent the fire stations of London from causing trouble as to prevent this industry from causing trouble. There have been more fires connected with the fire stations of the London County Council during the last eight years than, there have been fires associated with the celluloid industry. Therefore, if we are to have investigations into the causes of these conflagrations, we had better turn our attention, first of all, to the fire-engine stations, and let them be put in the same category. The proposal is to make regulations in such a manner that there is no doubt that in London alone some 70,000 shops will be placed under new restrictions. There will be an army of inspectors necessary. It will not be possible for any person to have any celluloid upon any floor of his shop if there is a floor above occupied or used by any person employed by him. If this regulation is carried out, all this material will have to be handled, sold, and displayed in places of one storey. No building is to be used where one person is employed above the floor on which this material is stored. It only needs to be looked at to see how perfectly ridiculous it is.
The rights of landlord and tenant are to be interfered with. Owners of property are to be penalised, and the regulations that are to be made are to set on one side leases that have already been made, and to require an owner to carry out alterations even although the tenant may be there for a very short time. We might just as well be asking the House of Commons to-day to justify the cry that goes up every night when we finish as to "Who goes home?" or to start ringing the curfew bell at nine o'clock in every place, to command people to go home, instead of only in Lincoln's Inn Fields, as to start now and attempt to control, by grandmotherly legislation, an industry such as this. I will undertake to say that there is not a village in this country, there is not a shop associated with the drapery trade, there is not a factory associated with motor cars, and there is not an engineering shop that does not in some form or other employ celluloid. The fires in those places to which attention has been drawn have not been shown conclusively to have been connected with celluloid, although celluloid was upon the premises. The loss of life arose from the improper means of escape. We have had during the last eight years thirty-one fixes in the London, County Council's own fire stations, and yet in London there have only been six fires connected with celluloid. There have been thirty-six fires connected with cinematograph films. Therefore, there have been forty-two fires connected with cinematograph films or celluloid as against thirty-one fires in the actual fire stations themselves.
During the last eight years, while there have been these thirty-six fires, there have been 1,200 fires in connection with oil lamps in London, and no one proposes today to ask that an inspector shall go into every house where there is an oil lamp. There have been 1,042 fires during the last eight years owing to faulty electrical circuits, but no electrical engineer is to be required to go round and see that these circuits are in order. There have been 1,233 fires due to candles, and there is no proposal in this Bill to deal with those who are selling candles. In connection with lights that have been thrown carelessly down there have been 7,114 fires, as to which no notice, of course, is taken. That being so, I think that the statistics justify those of us who oppose this Bill in saying that it is a hurried piece of legislation. It is wantonly interfering with a new industry. It is going to hold back an industry in a manner that will check the development of a material that is growing more and more into use in commercial life. What are the London County Council proposing to do? They are proposing that every person who keeps a store—and a store is defined to be any premises on which there are 5 cwt. of celluloid material—shall go and obtain a licence or authority to trade in this material. He shall have registration, and he must pay 10s. 6d. His application may be required to be accompanied by the plans, sections, and particulars of the premises where he is going to carry on this business Supposing, for example, a large firm like Peter Robinson's or Harrod's Stores, seek this 10s. 6d. licence, they must take with them a plan of the whole of their premises and ask that the plan shall be approved. Then, I presume, the inspector is to have the power at any time to go into those premises, examine them, see that the regulations are properly carried out, take away samples, paying for them, of course, and harassing the people by finding out exactly what proportion of nitro-celluloid there may be in the article that is being sold.
The London County Council seem to me to be running official mad. Those who have anything to do with them know full well that it is not the gentlemen who are elected on the council who control its policy, any more, very often, than it is the Members of this House, or the Cabinet, who control the policy of many things connected with departmental matters. It as the permanent officials. Here is an attempt to create another vast army of officials, who are to harass about 80,000 shopkeepers in London alone, and who are going to require plans to be submitted to them in connection with the articles that are to be sold, although it is said that in most cases there is not so much as 20 per cent. of celluloid in the material. There is something worse. A landlord was perfectly satisfied to let a tenant have I remises three years ago on a seven years' lease. If this Bill passes, the London County Council may require a great many alterations to be carried out. The owner may be required to alter premises to suit a trade or an industry in which no subsequent tenant may care to engage. You are going to destroy leases, and you are going to place the whole of the people in London, who have premises of this character, under the domination of a body of fussy officials who will have to justify their position by going and bringing in a number of reports as to whether these alterations should be carried out. Their premises are to be altered, licences are to be given, and the trade generally is to be worried. In a memorandum which the county council are responsible for, through their agents, we are told that the Bill has been promoted to carry out the recommendations of the Departmental Committee. Anything more flagrantly wrong has never been brought before this House than this misstatement. The Bill does not carry out the recommendations of the Departmental Committee; it absolutely flies in the face of them, and any body of men responsible for bringing before this House this measure, which contains a great many items with which we have no concern, should be given a lesson if they come to the House of Commons; make misstatements of that character, and attempt to get their Bill through by professing to embody recommendations said to have been made by a Departmental Committee which have in fact not been made. These people should have a lesson given them; the House should assert its authority over the county council, and reject the whole Bill, thereby giving the promoters time to pause before they come again. In the statement to which I have referred they say that the Departmental Committee on Celluloid, appointed by the Home Office in 1912, has recommended powers of control in the direction of those sought by the Bill. It seems hardly credible that those who drew up this statement could have referred to the Report, seeing that, as a matter of fact, the Report says that no recommendations are needed in connection with a matter which touches the great shops of London. On page 12, speaking of Public Exhibitions, the Report says:— the Home Office in preparing some general Regulations, I cannot say, but I can conceive why the London County Council should rush in first. It is to lead people to believe that they are a great council, in which all wisdom is centred, and where much watchfulness is existent towards that which is supposed to be the public weal and the public good. Those who have had much to do with the efforts of the county council looking after the public weal and the public good in the past may perhaps wish that they had not gone quite so fast in some of the grandmotherly inspections associated with some of the offices they have. In order that there may be a clear issue in connection with this, I beg to move, "That the Bill be read a second time this day six months."
I rise for the purpose of seconding the Amendment for the rejection of the Bill, not so much with the view of destroying the measure as far as it refers to other matters, but particularly to deal with that portion affecting celluloid and celluloid manufactures. Reading over the Memorandum in support of this Bill, we find it sets out that the reason for the introduction of this Clause is with a view to preventing the destruction of property by fire, and the impression left on one's mind is this, that celluloid is one of the most dangerous substances that we can have in commercial life. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] An hon. Member says "Hear, hear," therefore I shall be very pleased to submit what I think is fair criticism. I presume that the hon. Gentleman who interrupts me would lead us to believe that any trade in which there is a very large amount of destruction of property by fire is a fit and proper trade to be harassed and dealt with. If that is so, we shall have to start with closing the public-houses, because they are the largest producers of conflagrations in the City of London. They stand as No. 1, whereas the industry we are now dealing with stands at the very lowest. The undertakers are less dangerous than the public-houses, and they stand very low on the list. The point is that ho evidence is brought in proof of these statements, but quite the opposite. Last year an official investigation was held, and it appeared that only one fire was attributed to non-filled celluloid. There was only one fire the previous year and in the two previous years, as against a very large number of fires in other industries. His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Explosives stated before the Departmental Committee:—
"The view that has been adopted by my Department has always been that the accidents are so few compared to the enormous quantity of celluloid that is used and stored in connection with almost every trade and industry, that there is no need fur this legislation—that is to say, that although, perhaps, one or two accidents may be prevented by it, the hampering of the trade and industry may be so excessive…."
This view is also borne out by the fact that the storing of celluloid has not led to any increase in the rates of insurance. I suppose that would be the very best test one could bring to bear on any material called inflammable. Mr. Ridley, the secretary to the Fire Offices Committee, informed the Home Office Committee that the fire offices, having regard to the number of fires, had not yet found it necessary to impose a higher insurance rate upon drapers, nor was there, within his knowledge, any general practice of increasing the rates
"in the case of toyshops or shops where these very light fancy goods are being stored"—
indeed, if a wholesale warehouseman in the City, storing muslin and such like goods, opened a new department for celluloid toys, he
'did not think the rate would necessarily go up."
The promoters of this Bill, so far as they are dealing with celluloid, have really no case. There is one hon. Member I miss to-night who has generally stood up in this House in defence of the liberty of the individual, namely, the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). I had hoped to see him in his place to-night to carry out his usual rule in regard to this Bill. It would be wise of the promoters of this Bill to undertake to delete from it the whole of the Clauses dealing with celluloid and cinematograph films. That course would lead to the Second Beading of this Bill being passed without any opposition. Seeing that a Committee has already sat and reported on the matter, seeing, further, that there is not so much danger as has been described, I would ask those who have the Bill in hand to be content with the Second Reading of the Bill—with the deletion of the Clauses to which the Mover of the Rejection has alluded.
The Mover and Seconder of the Rejection of this Bill seem in many details not to have grasped its provisions. The hon. Member for the Launceston Division (Sir Croydon Marks) says this is the same Bill as that of last year. As a matter of fact, the celluloid provisions have been entirely recast, and I can only imagine that he has not really compared it with last year's Bill, because, if he had done so, he could not possibly have made such a statement. I have the provisions of the two Bills in parallel columns, showing how they have been changed since the Departmental Committee sat, but I do not think it is necessary to weary the House with them. The only part of those Clauses which does remain more or less the same in principle is that dealing with dangerous businesses. Therefore the London County Council is not seeking to make the law more stringent, but, on the contrary, to lessen the onerous restrictions which now ought to weigh, under the London Building Acts, upon those who carry on such business. At the present time it is illegal to build premises for these dangerous businesses which are set out in the Definition Clause—the manufacture of matches and other substances liable to sudden explosion and other products which are liable to cause sudden fire or explosion—it is illegal to build a factory for those purposes within 50 feet of another building or within 40 feet of the road. These provisions have, for some time past, been held to be too onerous by the London County Council, and they have not enforced them. They now come to Parliament asking to be given other powers more elastic, which will enable them to give greater freedom to the producers of these dangerous materials, and, at the same time, protect the public from the danger of fire. That is practically the only provision in these Clauses which is untouched since last year. The celluloid provisions are absolutely recast. The case of both hon. Members who have spoken on this subject really is that there is no more danger—indeed, that there is less danger—of fire from celluloid than there is in other premises which are not connected with any such manufacture or storage. The hon. Member for Launceston said there was more danger of fire in the fire brigade stations, and apparently he thought there was more danger in the ordinary residential house, because he said so many fires took place owing to short circuits on the electric wires and from candles. He did not think it necessary to give us the comparative number of residential houses in London and the celluloid factories. As a matter of fact, there is not a single celluloid factory in London at the present time.
I was speaking not of factories, but of shops.
I understand that the provisions of this Bill will probably not apply to a single retail shop except Selfridge's. In the Definition Clause the hon. Member will see that the word "shops'" is not mentioned. The provision is for premises where celluloid is kept for the purposes of profit. That provision is limited to premises where five hundredweights of celluloid is kept, and I am told that there is not a single shop in London which does such a retail trade except Selfridges—
The hon. Member is quite mistaken.
That is the information the London County Council have.
That shows how wrong they are again.
It is easy to make a statement of that kind without any evidence. It is the wish of the London County Council to carry out the provisions of the Departmental Committee's Report, and they are fully ready to go before a Select Committee which will be able to recast the rather vague recommendations of the Departmental Committee in Parliamentary langauge. The county council have no desire whatever to go beyond the provisions asked for by this Departmental Committee, and they have done their best to put these provisions into the form of a Bill. If there were any foundation for the statement of the two hon. Members that there is no danger of fire in connection with celluloid, why is it that the Home Office appointed this Departmental Committee? Hon. Members' memories may be short. Perhaps they forget the very disastrous fires which have taken place in connection with celluloid. It is easy for the hon. Member (Sir C. Marks), who is not connected with the ratepayers of London—
I am, unfortunately, a heavy ratepayer.
The hon. Member is not connected with the ratepayers of London in any representative capacity. It is very easy for him to say the county council have to be taught a lesson, but I think they would be taught a bigger lesson if they neglected their responsibility of carrying out reasonable precautions for public safety. There was a very serious fire in Moor Lane on 28th July, 1912, which was one of the causes which led to the appointment of the Departmental Committee. The coroner asked if such a fire was preventable by the adoption of any and what special precautions against fire. The answer of the jury, who heard all the facts of the case was:—
After such a statement as that, would it have been possible for the county council to sit still and do nothing? If they had done so, they would very rightly have met with considerable condemnation from the ratepayers whom they represent. The hon. Member apparently objects to all regulations, and apparently thinks celluloid is not inflammable. He read from this Departmental Committee, but he did not deal with their finding that celluloid is extremely inflammable.
I have made celluloid, so I know how much it will burn.
I dare say the hon. Member knows a great deal about celluloid, but in dealing with the Departmental Committee he found it useful to quote it for his own purposes when he was misrepresenting the attitude of the London County Council, but he did not read the very strong passages pointing out the dangers of celluloid, and showing that celluloid, not only catches fire, but at a temperature considerably below the boiling point of water gives off poisonous and very inflammable and explosive fumes, and that on that ground a fire with celluloid in it is very difficult to put out, largely owing to the fact that it is extremely dangerous to human life for the fire brigade to come near it. The hon. Member seems to think it is a matter of no importance. Since 1902 about thirty lives have been lost in London in connection with these fires, and about fifty fires have taken place, which, on the authority of the London Fire Brigade, were connected with the storage of celluloid. The hon. Member has quite misunderstood the Bill—in fact, I really do not think he can have read it, because he said it would be impossible to store celluloid in anything but a one-storey building, and there is no provision remotely resembling such a statement in the Bill. The Bill lays it down that these stores are to be registered, and that in those cases where people are living overhead—which clearly shows that it is not only to be in a one-storey building—there must be reasonable means of escape in case of fire. But surely that is an absolutely necessary provision.
Read Section 29, Sub-section ( c ).
Perhaps the hon. Member will read it.
"Prohibit or make, subject to the consent of the council, the use for the purpose of a celluloid store of any part of any premises which is situate anywhere beneath any room in such premises which is used for residential purposes, or in which persons are employed, and empower the council to attach conditions to any such consent."
Anyone who heard the hon. Member would have thought he meant that celluloid could only be stored in a single-storey building. These provi- sions are only enabling powers to the London County Council. There is a power of appeal from them to the police magistrate, and these regulations have to be allowed by the Secretary of State, who, I suppose, would not allow anything so unreasonable as that which the hon. Member seems to imagine. The hon. Member objects very largely to the proposals as they will affect shops. I have dealt with that matter already, and given him the assurance of the responsible officials of the London County Council that certainly not more than a very small number of shops will be affected by these proposals. The hon. Member for Launceston quoted the Report as if it said that no shops should be brought under the provisions of this Bill as regards registration. There is a paragraph at page 9 of the Report of the Select Committee which recommends that the occupiers of places in which more than 5 cwt. of celluloid is stored should be required to register the premises, and that the local authority should be responsible for enforcing the regulations. It is quite true that here the word "wholesale" is inserted, but there is no definition of wholesale attempted, and I am told that wholesale and retail business is carried on in the same premises. The London County Council, finding that the Departmental Committee could not find out what a wholesale celluloid shop was, thought it best to adopt the recommendation of the Departmental Committee that no shop should come under the provisions of the Bill unless it stored at least 5 cwt. But the real answer to the hon. Member is that the London County Council do not want any more drastic powers than those laid down by the Departmental Committee, and they are willing to allow the matter to be discussed before a Select Committee upstairs, so that model Clauses may be drafted.
I agree that there is a great deal to be said on general principle against local authorities coming one by one and asking such powers. But we have had lessons in London that if we have to wait for general legislation, we shall have to wait a long time. In 1908 general powers were sought by the London County Council to deal with the milk supply. There was a great deal of sympathy with that measure, and the then President of the Local Government Board said he would bring in legislation. The London County Council must be content to allow infantile mortality, through impure milk, to go on in the meantime. We have waited six years, and we have not yet seen the Milk Bill. We do not want to repeat that experience, and have more fatal fires in London while waiting for a Bill to regulate the sale of celluloid. In connection with the sale of celluloid, there is one consideration which distinguishes it from the regulation of the sale of milk. The production and sale of celluloid in a large town must be subject, in the public interest, to restrictions different from those where celluloid is produced in a factory apart from other buildings. Owing to the high houses and narrow streets in London, there is much greater danger of fire spreading than in the country, and that I think to some extent answers the objection stated by the hon. Member for Launceston. I hope the House will pass the Bill, and allow it to go to a Select Committee, so that model Clauses may be drawn up, which will enable those engaged in the trade to know where they stand.
It is one of the unfortunate results in connection with a discussion of this kind that we are either, under ordinary circumstances, forced to oppose a Bill, many of the Clauses of which we are in sympathy with, or to allow people to be put to great erpense in order to object before a Committee upstairs to Clauses which, as is often shown, they were perfectly right in objecting to. The hon. Member opposite (Mr. W. Guinness) made a very significant boast, I might call it. He referred to the difference between the celluloid provisions in this Bill and those in the County Council Bill of last year. The county council brought forward a similar Bill last year, and its provisions in regard to celluloid were as perfect as the county council, with the assistance of its able officers, could make it. But the House declined to pass that Bill until the whole matter had been considered by a Departmental Committe. Now the county council come to us and say, "We have recast entirely the provisions relating to celluloid because of the report of the Departmental Committee." That shows the danger of leaving such a body to make such regulations as they seek power to make by this Bill. The House was right last year in rejecting the Bill in order that a Departmental Committee of experts should consider the subject. I wish to deal with the question from the shopkeepers' point of view. The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds says he Understands that there is only one shop in London which would come within the definition under this Bill of a celluloid store.
One retail store.
With all respect to the hon. Member, I would say that there is no person living in London to-day who-can say how many retail shops will come within this provision, because the definition of a store is premises where there is more than 5 cwt. of celluloid. When you consider the number of articles celluloid enters into to-day, I doubt whether any large departmental store, or large retailer, could tell you at all what weight of celluloid there is in the place. Is he to weigh-all the handles of knives, all the umbrellas, all the collar studs, and every imaginable kind of article which celluoid enters into to find out whether he has got 5 cwt.? To lay down such a definition as this shows that those who have drawn up these provisions really do not understand their business. I ask the House to consider the powers these bodies are asking. In a similar Bill for the City of London, which I suppose I would not be in order in discussing now, one of the provisions is that every celluloid article must be stamped or labelled "celluloid." It is true that the county council do not ask for power to make that regulation; but I do not think they need it in view of the terms of paragraph ( g ) in Clause 29 of their Bill. If there is a store these regulations may do this. They may
"make provision with regard to the execution and maintenance of works, and with regard to any such other matters whatsoever as may be deemed expedient with a view to diminution of danger to life and property arising from fire or explosion."
Read Sub-section (2).
That means that these regulations have to be confirmed by the council and allowed by the Secretary of State. That is, that these gentlemen realise that they make regulations from want of knowledge, which are not the proper regulations, and therefore there must be an appeal to the Home Office or the Secretary of State. It would be very much better for this House to bring in a Bill which will deal with the storing of celluloid throughout the whole country, and let the Home Office decide what those regulations are to be. The hon. Member opposite referred to the recommendations of the Departmental Committee with regard to shops. I cannot blame him for not reading this, as it does not support his case, and he is not called on to support my case. On page 7 of the Report it states:—
"Accidents in shops, both wholesale and retail, have been very rare, and the danger of a fire arising owing to the presence of celluloid is remote, if ordinary precautions are observed. The bulk of the articles are necessarily kept in packages, and whether the main stock is kept in the drawers or shelves of the shop, or in a stockroom, there does not appear to be any evidence that special danger has attended the keeping of celluloid under such conditions."
Anybody quoting the Committee's Report on this matter ought to put that finding of the Committee before the House. There is one significant matter to which I am entitled to call attention. The Chairman of Ways and Means has seen fit to place an instruction on the Paper which does seem to me to show that if there had not been that instruction we would have been justified in opposing the whole Bill. I am not speaking for a large number of shopkeepers. I am not prepared to vote against the Second Reading of the Bill if, and I suppose I must take that risk, the House is prepared to accept the instruction of the Chairman of Ways and Means. But I do protest strongly against public authorities doing what they are too fond of doing, bringing in these general powers Bills, putting in these clauses dealing with special interests and putting these special interests Session after Session to the expense of going upstairs and employing counsel to oppose these particular proposals. It is a grossly unfair thing to do. There was a retort made to one hon. Member who opposed this Bill that he had no connection with London ratepayers. That cannot be said of me. I represent a section of the London ratepayers. Most of my constituents would be very glad indeed if the public authorities in London were more busy about enforcing the powers which they already have than searching for fresh powers. I do strongly object to an area like London being taken and having these special provisions made for it. Take a great road dividing London from Middlesex. On one side of the road tooth-brushes must be stamped "Celluloid, inflammable." On the other side of the road they need not be. If legislation is needed, and I do not deny that it is, in regard to the manufacture and possible storage under certain conditions of celluloid, it is the business of Parliament to take up the question and provide that those requirements shall be made universal throughout the country.
In the Debate which we have just had, and which has been very interesting in many respects, most of the speakers have dealt rather with the details of the Bill than with the principles which underly it. In a case of this kind it is unfortunate that a Bill should be jeopardised by objections addressed to only one portion of it. With regard to the celluloid portion, it seems to me that the underlying principle of this Bill is: shall there, or shall there not be, control over this particular business? It is quite true that this Bill does not follow precisely the recommendations of the Departmental Committee. If this Bill goes to a Committee the Home Office will, following the usual course, present a Report to the Committee upon this particular part of the Bill. As the Report of the Departmental Committee has been referred to by my hon. Friend who moved the rejection, I may refer to two short extracts. The first is at page 5:—
"In our view the extent of the danger should not be judged solely by the number of accidents recorded. Celluloid is a material presenting definite danger of its own against which appropriate precautions should be taken. It takes fire very readily and burns with great rapidity."
At page 13 it states:—
"We are strongly of opinion that the general conditions under which the business is carried on render it necessary that effective measures should be taken to secure the safety of persons employed in film stores, and neighbouring tenants, and we think that the circumstances call for systematic inspection and supervision by the local authority. The trade is a growing one and the need for regulations is likely to increase rather than decrease."
In those circumstances I do submit to the House, that without committing ourselves in any way to the details of this Bill a case has been made out for having control over this particular business, and that that is the only point with which we are concerned at this stage. If the House refers this question to a Select Committee there will be ample opportunity for dealing with all these points one by one, and, of course, the Bill will come back to the House where it can be further dealt with. In these circumstances I would suggest, without prejudicing the details or the control foreshadowed by this Bill that, as the Departmental Committee which was recently appointed and went into the matter thoroughly, came to the conclusion that special precautions and safeguards were necessary, it is the duty of the House to give a Second Reading to this Bill.
I desire to offer a few observations in favour of the Second Reading of this measure. I am not particularly interested in two of the three measures before the House, but in that one which has been promoted by the corporation of Glasgow. I understand some arrangement has been come to, by whom and with whom, I do not know, that the three Bills shall stand or fall together. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."]
On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I would ask whether we can discuss a Bill relating exclusively to London and speak on a Bill which is not yet before the House.
Is it not a fact, Sir, that the original arrangement was, for practical purposes, that the celluloid provisions of these three Bills should stand or fall together. The Glasgow Bill to which my hon. Friend referred deals only with celluloid, and its provisions are similar to the provisions in the London Bill. If we cannot discuss them together, may we have a separate discussion on the Glasgow Bill?
We can only discuss one Bill at a time. I did not understand the hon. Member for the College Division of Glasgow was going to open the Glasgow case. Of course it is open to the hon. Member to use conditions which are similar in the Glasgow case as illustrations in speaking on the Bill relating to London. The hon. Gentleman could not go into the details of the Glasgow case.
If hon. Members desire to take the discussion separately on the other Bills, I suggest the first Bill be taken tonight, and then I will propose that the other Bills should be set down for Monday evening, and not taken to-night.
As far as I am concerned I did not intend to go into any details on the Glasgow measure. I simply wanted to discuss the general principle underlying the Bill. I think that the hon. Members who have just spoken have gone too much into detail, and have put before the House points which would have been much better left to the Committee. What are the circumstances which have led to the promotion of these three measures? The danger of this celluloid manufacture was exemplified in several fires in London, notably the Moor Lane fire in the City, in which nine lives were lost.
Questions were repeatedly asked in this House by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood) and by other hon. Members in regard to this celluloid fire, and such pressure was brought to bear upon the Government that the Home Office was induced to appoint a Departmental Committee to inquire into this question, and this Committee has comparatively recently issued a short Report. I think it was the duty of corporations, such as London, Glasgow, and the County of London, to act upon that Report of the Departmental Committee, when they realised that the lives of their constituents were being risked by this particular manufacture. The hon. Baronet, in a very admirable speech, entered, I think, far too much into the details of the Report of the Committee. If I were desirous of following him in considering the Report, I would call his attention to one or two observations of that Committee which lead in completely the opposite direction from that in which my hon. Friend went. On page 6 of the Report it says:— of the Bill, and the details of it could be discussed in Committee upstairs, and altered if necessary.
In regard to the City of London Bill I have a very important point relating to Clause 41, which I think I can raise even still better upon the City of London Bill, which the Chairman of Committees will put down for Monday. I will only indicate what it is. As I read the two Bills together, it would seem that the City of London ratepayers will have to pay twice over for the administration of the provision relating to the storage and manufacture of celluloid. I would prefer to raise the discussion when the hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) is present. It appears to me that the ratepayers of the City, being in the London County Council area, will have to pay for a horde of new officials, and then they will have to appoint their own officials under their own Bill in the City area. That is a point I can raise on Monday, and I therefore give notice to the Member for the City—I have already given him private notice—that I intend to raise that point. If the Bill went to a Division with that provision in it, it would be sufficient in itself to cause me to vote against it. I trust the House will allow the Bill to go to a Second Beading and send it to a Committee upstairs to do justice.
I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed.
I beg to move, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to amend Part V. so as to provide that the Metropolitan borough councils shall be the authorities to register premises in the county of London used for the reception or treatment of persons requiring nursing or massage, manicure, chiropody, light or other baths, or other similar treatment, and to administer the provisions of the Bill relating thereto and of the bylaws made thereunder."
There is a very general opinion as to the necessity for this Bill. The only difference of opinion is as to how the machinery of it ought to be vested. I think that the borough councils, being in the position of administering various Acts amended so recently in the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1912, would be the proper persons to have the necessary machinery to administer this Bill. It is in the interests of the borough councils I move this Instruction.
I beg to second the Motion.
If any discussion is desired on this Instruction I suggest that it should be deferred until Monday, in view of the other matters before the House, and in the same way as I referred my own Motion. If it is the general opinion, I will move that the Debate be Adjourned, and then I will' set it down for Monday.
Question, "That the Debate be now Adjourned," put, and agreed to.
Debate to be resumed upon Monday next, at a Quarter-past Eight of the clock.
had given notice of the following Motion: "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they omit the provisions relating to the marking of celluloid articles."
If the hon. Member will put this Instruction on the Paper to-morrow I will put it down for Monday next.
I will do so.
The hon. Member's Instruction really refers to a Clause not in this Bill, but in the next Bill.
City of London (Various Powers) Bill (By Order)
Supply. [Second Allotted Day.]
Army Estimates, 1914–15
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Postponed Proceeding resumed on Question, "That a number of Land Forces not exceeding 186,400, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915."
I was referring to the question of people who took up arms without uniform when their country had been invaded. The rule dealing with the matter is:
"The inhabitants of a country not under occupation, who, on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist troops without having had time to organise themselves, in accordance with Article I, shall be regarded as belligerents if they carry arms openly, and if they respect the laws and customs of war."
The people of this country would have had plenty of time to organise themselves into a. Militia or Volunteers, or some other uniformed force. Therefore the commander of the enemy would say, "You have no excuse, and we are bound to shoot you." Just as was done during the Franco-German war. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell us plainly what is the situation in this matter. Dealing with another matter, I would ask why was the War Office specification for the supply of quarters of beef from Australia altered in August from 150 to 200 to 110 lbs. of Australian forequarters. Was it not because it was found that Australian beef was infested by a parasitic worm, and has not the flesh of such cattle been condemned on that ground by the sanitary authorities? Is it not the fact that, after considerable negotiations with the Australian Commonwealth, a compromise was agreed to by which the flanks and briskets were removed, and it was found necessary to reduce the weight so considerably that nearly half went to the worms and the rest to the British soldier? I want to find out whether our soldiers have been deliberately fed by our War Office on worm-infested beef. Is it right that our soldiers, on whom we depend for the preservation of our lives and liberties, should be compelled, and remember they are compelled, unless they spend their own money, to use this food and this worm-infested flesh. It has been admitted in this House by a Minister that he has seen the American statistics showing that an enormous quantity of preserved food is produced from animals suffering from disease and some of this must be imported into this country from America, so we appear to have added diseased meat from our Colonies to that from America for compulsory consumption by our soldiers. The Government, rightly or wrongly, refuse to feed our soldiers on British or Irish meat which is rigidly inspected, whereas millions of tons of meat come into the Port of London where there are only three inspectors to deal with it. No wonder the right hon. Gentleman is able to buy meat for our soldiers at 3¼d. per lb. We are not even sure that the worm-infested parts of this beef are cut out, because it has been found that some of the beef in the shops of a Government contractor to the War Office contains unmistakably this parasitic worm. The Government have a contract with a South American Company with an unpronounceable name. It may or may not be sound meat, but it is the coarsest meat on the market, and, for that reason, the cheapest. Is it fair to feed our soldiers, on whom we depend for our safety, upon the coarsest meat that can be found in the whole world?
Colonial preference.
It is South American, not Colonial. In a case the other day the Secretary of State said that there had been no other complaints in a regiment in which two soldiers had said that the meat was uneatable. Soldiers, both officers and men, are very averse to complaining. I have "caught it" myself for complaining about bad meat provided for the soldiers. Coming back from South Africa I chucked the whole of the supply of one day overboard. I mention that simply to point out that there is a prejudice against complaining about the meat. Quartermasters and commanding officers do not like it. I do not know exactly why it is, but that is the fact. Therefore, I do not think there is much in the right hon. Gentleman's answer that there had been no complaints from the rest of the regiment. It is rather a serious matter. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us why these flanks were cut out—whether it was because the rest of the animal was infested with this parasitic worm; and, if not, why the authorities were obliged, particularly in regard to these Australian animals, to agree to take about half, or nearly half, the weight that they did from the quarters? On the general question, although we know that the right hon. Gentleman would put us in a safe position if he could, the position of this country at the present time is anything but safe, not only because we have not a sufficient number of troops, but more particularly because our Auxiliary Forces are nothing like efficiently trained. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman remembers Lord Haldane saying in the House of Lords that his expert advisers told him that men trained for from four to six months were not fit to contend with Continental soldiers. Yet you have Reserves, some trained for only three months, some for about five months, and according to the right hon. Gentleman they are ready to go straight abroad and contend with Continental soldiers on their own ground.
I understand that it will be for the convenience of the Committee if we now pass Vote A and come to an important point which the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans) wishes to raise, so that we may deal with that before we pass Votes 10, 13, 14, and 15, which it is necessary for us to have for the purposes of the financial business, in accordance with the arrangement which has been made. I would therefore appeal to the Committee to pass Vote A, but perhaps it would be improper for me to do so without replying to the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Hunt), who has so often been unable to make his speech owing to his courtesy in giving way in order to facilitate business. With regard to the meat, I can assure him that there is not a shadow or a shade of foundation for any of the allegations which have been furnished him in this matter. The queston whether we ought to feed our troops on meat grown at home, or on meat from abroad, whether the Colonies or elsewhere, is too large a question to enter into now. We have decided that we shall have a considerable proportion of the meat for our soldiers provided from abroad. Apart from that question, the suggestion that any of our troops have been given meat which is bad, is absolutely without foundation.
That is not the question. Why did you cut off these particular parts of the Australian beef if it was not worm infected?
I am very glad to have an opportunity of disposing of this ridiculous fallacy, which has obtained currency not in any reputable journal, but in some quarters. When you import meat, whether for the Army or anyone else, you have to conform to the arrangements made by the Government of the country that exports that meat, which itself has to conform to the regulations made by our own inspectors here. In the case of some of the Australian meat it has been found necessary to excise a portion of the carcass of each beast in order to make quite sure that this parasite should not be present in it. This applies to all meat. It has nothing whatever to do with the Army. I would ask the Committee to observe, not: remotely. It applies to all the meat which is imported from Australia into this country. In the ordinary course of business some of this contract went to the Australian Government, and as in the case of meat exported from these Dominions portions were excised. I wish to emphasise that there is nothing in this peculiar to the Army, and I shall be glad to refer again to the matter, if necessary, on some other-occasion. Every bit of meat consumed by the British soldier is most carefully inspected by our own Army inspectors. I can give this guarantee, apart from the question of whether or not we should have it from at home or abroad, that every care is taken to ensure that all meat supplied shall be of the best quality, and that we have had no complaints of any sort or kind as to the quality of the meat provided.
Has the right hon. Gentleman had any complaint about there being too much bone?
Yes, there have been as good many complaints, no doubt, as the hon. Member knows—for he knows all about it. There used to be a great many complaints as to there not being enough to eat, or that there was too much bone in the meat; but, on the whole, I should think there are fewer complaints now as to the quantity supplied than at any previous time in the history of the Army.
If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, I have had letters quite recently from a young guardsman which upset my theory that the Army is better fed than it used to be.
I really think that it will be much better to have this discussion on the Vote for Stores.
Yes, Mr. Whitley, I bow to your ruling. I only thought it was proper that I should reply to the particular point made by the hon. Gentleman. He asked me with reference to one other point about The Hague Convention. I can add nothing to the document I sent to him containing the considered opinion on The Hague Convention in relation to the civil population in time of war. It is impossible for me to attempt to interpret what meaning would be put by a commander upon the decision of The Hague Conven- tion. I can only say that I have no doubt whatever that any civilised country would abide by the findings of The Hague Convention. I hope we may now have the Vote.
I think I should just say that I willing join in the arrangement that has been made. I was going to make a certain reference to the controversy between the right hon. Gentleman and myslf regarding aviation, which I think is of a very serious character, but I will leave it over until the Report stage of this Vote.
10.0 P.M.
I will not keep the Committee from a, decision for more than five minutes—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—but there is one question which has never been answered from the beginning to the end of this Debate. Many interesting things have been raised. The right hon. Gentleman said, almost at the very outset, that he was going to tell us what the Army is, and what the Army is for. I am interested in the second question, and for a long time I listened—until I fell asleep. There was an answer to the first question, but it was uninteresting to me. The second question has never been answered. [HON. MEMBERS: "It was answered while you were asleep."] To put it bluntly, the right hon. Gentleman flatly refused to answer the question at all. Therefore, before I vote I should really like to have an answer to that question, or I shall be obliged to seek an answer for myself. I ask myself what has the Army been engaged in? I see it has been engaged in a raid in Somaliland, and amongst tribes that I think it ought never to have visited. This has caused the death of distinguished officers and men. The Army has been engaged in a punitive expedition on the North-West frontier of India, punishing villagers and innocent people who had not committed the offences which were to be punished. They suffered vicariously. It has been used in South Africa to quell civil disturbances arising out of labour disputes.
Those are questions which we usually discuss on the Colonial and Foreign Office Vote. The hon. Member must recollect that if he makes statements other hon. Members will want to reply.
I cannot help that.
It is my duty to help it.
Surely that ought not to keep me—without in the least contesting your ruling—from asking what the Army is for? We are asked here to-night to vote 186,000 men. I have to determine, on behalf of my Constituents, whether I should vote for these men or not. I want to know what they are going to do? The right hon. Gentleman will not tell me what they are for. Therefore I have to inquire for myself what they are likely to do. Without going any further, I will say that there is one thing we have been lately told by most distinguished persons what they are not to do, and that is to quell an armed rebellion within the confines of our own country. Lord Roberts is, no doubt, a great soldier. I bow to him with infinite respect in that capacity. Nevertheless, in my judgment he is rather a small statesman. He has said that the Army will be ruined if it were to be turned against our civil population in Ireland.
Our own people!
The Noble Lord the Member for Portsmouth has said much the same thing. If that be the case; if we have got an Army which is really—I will not say disloyal—but which is turned into a party instrument, I have really great hesitation as to whether I ought to, on behalf of my Constituents, support this Vote.
Question put, and agreed to.
Pay, Etc., of the Army
Motion made, and Question proposed,
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £8,705,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Pay, etc., of His Majesty's Army (including Army Reserve) at Home and Abroad (exclusive of India), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915"
I beg to move, to reduce the Vote by £100.
I take this action to call attention to the hardships which are now suffered by noncommissioned officers and men who are married "off the strength" in the Army. It is an old grievance, and it is one that I tried to have met by the War Office without troubling this House with it. Last January I entered into correspondence with the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for War to try by gentle persuasion, without publicity, to see whether something could be done to remove the grievance. I did not raise the matter on last year's Estimates because the right hon. Gentleman promised that there should be an inquiry made into the circumstances. I hoped—I do not mean he led me to hope—that when that inquiry was made he would himself volunteer some measure of relief for this grievance. The Committee were appointed, by the Government in March last, and a very able Report by Mrs. Tennant has been made to the Government. As a matter of fact, when the inquiry was going on we could do nothing. We knew the Government had referred the matter to a Committee. Early this year the Committee finished their Report, and the right hon. Gentleman gave me a copy, and I hope he will lay that Report upon the Table, and that all Members of the House will be able to see it. I really think the House should protest against the very inconvenient way in which information is supplied to it, because it is very inconvenient that one Member only should have an advance copy, and other Members of the House should not be able to get the information.
Upon my word, I really never heard such a complaint made as this! This particular document had only just become available. The hon. Gentleman asked if he could get a copy. I said I would try to get him an advance copy. I got him an advance copy in order that he might be able to discuss this matter, and new he complains that every Member of the House has not got a copy. I did my very best to give him the very earliest information, and I do not think he has any cause to complain.
I am very glad to have got that explanation, but, all the same, I think the right hon. Gentleman could have supplied the House. The Report is dated the 3rd December. It was printed in December last, and it is not until March that an advance copy is available. If that is a sample of the ways of the War Office and of the right hon. Gentleman, I do not wonder that he does not like to be told of it, and while I am thankful to him for giving me the Report, I think the House should also have the Report made available for it. I do not, however, want to waste time quarrelling on that matter, because, after all, I got the Report. I cannot read it all, but with the permission of the House I will read such parts of it as support my com- plaint. The regulations provide—and I must ask the House to follow this, because the grievance arises out of these regulations—that of married non-commissioned officers and men 50 per cent. of sergeants should be put upon the strength, and 5 per cent. only of the rank and file. The idea of these regulations is, of course, to limit the number of married men in the Army—to limit improvident marriages, which is, of course, quite right, and to prevent the less mobility of the Army, which is also quite right. But the difference between the privileges of men married on the strength and off the strength is, in my opinion, far too great for the crime, if it is a crime, of being married without being on the strength.
A married man off the strength, whether a sergeant or a corporal, or a member of the rank and file, is not recognised as a married man at all. The Army ignores his wife and children and does not make any provision for them either for rations or quarters, whereas the man married on the strength lives in quarters with his wife and children, and, if not in quarters, he gets a lodging allowance of 5s. l0d. a week, free fuel and light equal to 2s. a week, and his wife and family have free conveyance from one station to another whenever the regiment is changed, and that, of course, is of enormous importance, especially when the regiment goes abroad, because the expense of moving the wife and family of a married man off the strength abroad is practically prohibited. In addition, the man on the strength gets free medical attendance for wife and family, separation allowance in the event of temporary separation on duty of 4d. per day for the wife and l½d. for each child, and there are certain educational advantages and, in addition, their share in the regimental washing. I admit it Is necessary to have some limitation on the right of men to marry on the strength, but I will give the House some typical instances, which I know of my own knowledge, in the Royal Army Medical Corps, so that we may see how these Regulations work. I take a typical instance of the sergeant who has twenty years' service, and has two children, and, although married ten or twelve years, he has no right to go on the strength. It cannot be said that that was an improvident marriage. In the same corps, in the same town, there is another sergeant with ten years' service who has been married two years. There is a corporal with sixteen years' service who has four children, another with twelve years' service and two children, and a private of twenty years' service and five children, and there are hundreds of others in Departmental Corps like this almost as bad as these I have quoted. One of the great grievances is that if a man is married and is waiting for permission in the Departmental Corps, at any rate, he virtually never can recover his position and get on the strength, because the men waiting, who are to be married with permission, have to be absorbed before any of those who many without permission can be taken on the married strength. Of course, that punishment is intended for men who marry without permission. Let us see how that works out. In one of those cases a man has been married for ten years off the strength, and for ten years has been deprived of privileges worth over £10 a year at least; in other words, for having married without permission he is fined £100 or more. Whereas in another regiment I know the case of a man who married without permission, but who in three weeks was absorbed on to the married strength, so that if it is intended as a punishment it is a punishment that does not fit the crime, but works extremely harshly; in some cases because the penalty is enormously severe, and in other cases is extremely light. I ask the House for a moment to consider the results of the Committee's report. A very admirable report was made by Mrs. Tennant, and in the appendix there are separate reports by Lady Haig, Mrs. Wavell, Mrs. Maxse, and Mr. Robb. Mrs. Maxse says: rate of 2s. a week; that needlework instruction, care of children instruction, should be given to their wives, and that army labour exchanges should be set up to provide employment for such of the wives as may desire it. Those are the two classes that should have additional assistance beyond that which the present Regulations grant. The Committee also suggest that stricter observance of the regulations as regards prohibited marriages should be made, and they make various suggestions for carrying out those restrictions which I will not deal with now. I welcome that report, but I am not satisfied with the proposals that are made. It is quite clear from these reports that the eye of the Financial Secretary to the War Office or the Under-Secretary, was upon the ladies when they made that report, for at every moment they are pulled up for want of money, and they do not even complete their own suggestions or carry them to a logical conclusion for fear of putting some expense on the War Office. Although the instructions are not published, it is quite clear that every moment they have been afraid of making any proposals that would cost any money.
I ask for something rather bigger in the way of relief to these men. No one can doubt the hardship. I have quoted sufficient to prove the hardship of a deserving class of men. I suggest that the full privilege of marriage on strength should be granted to all non-commissioned officers and men over twelve years service, and I say that for this reason. They enlist in the first instance for seven years. Then they extend their term for five years, and that gives them twelve years' service. They then re-engage. What right have the Government to re-engage them for a further period of service except in the condition in which they are as married men with wives and children? The Government have no right to reengage them shutting their eyes to the fact that they are married, and that they have wives and children. I ask that all those men who are re-engaged and are married, should be put on full marriage strength. Then I want all non-commissioned officers in Departmental Corps of over seven years' service to come on the marriage strength. I limit it to Departmental Corps for this reason. The question of mobility is not of so much importance as the question of stability; and honesty of the man is infinitely more important. In the Departmental Corps the men are exposed to temptations to which they are not exposed in some other corps. What you want is a stable class of man who would at least know that his wife and children are not starving or sharing his rations with him. This is only after seven years, so that the question of improvident marriage does not come in. It means that after seven years they shall have permission to marry and go on strength. A man at that time is about twenty-five years of age, about the ordinary age when the average civilian of his own rank in life would marry.
I hope that the other proposals of the Committee will be adopted, because they seem to me to be excellent. I do not believe that it is possible for anybody with the present knowledge we have to say what the cost is going to be finally. These men who are married are not recognised at all, and you cannot get any information as to the number of men married off the strength in the Army. I have asked the right hon. Gentleman questions as to what are the numbers, but there are no records. Some commanding officers have got records, but others have not. They are not supposed to know. Some do know, and some look after the men married off the strength, but that depends very much upon the commanding officer, and, if he is doing it at all, he is doing it contrary to the Regulations. It is not possible therefore, and I do not pretend that it is, to say actually what it is going to cost, but, personally, I believe that £20,000 or £30,000 would go a very long way; in fact, I believe, all the way, to meet every suggestion that I have made this evening. I ask the Government to accept the proposal I make. It is really a moderate one. I am not asking that everybody should be recognised. I have limited it to those who really deserve to be recognised. I appeal to everyone in the House interested in a living wage to support me on this occasion because there is no living wage for these men. The Report shows that there is starvation in the Government service amongst men who have served their country well—not only well, but so well that they have been re-engaged for a further term of service after the first twelve years had expired.
I appeal to those who are interested in housing, for here we find slum conditions are prevailing amongst our Government servants. They are lodging in one room— husband, wife, and children—in the lowest quarter of the town. These are not my words: they are the words of the Report. I ask, therefore, for the support of all who are interested in the better housing of our people. The Government tell us that they are short in numbers. They have been advertising in the Press and on the walls of our towns, and even in cinematograph theatres for more men. That is all to the good. The Press is very powerful, and has helped the Government, and extra numbers of men have been enrolled in consequence. But there is another advertisement—a living picture, which is going on all the time. It is not in any one place. It is everywhere where garrisons are to be found. It is in every town. And that picture is a picture of squalor in a one-roomed tenement, a picture of starving women and children, recognisable at once as the children of a man "off the strength." The man also is recognised by his hungry, drawn looks. That advertisement is going on all the time. The right hon. Gentleman may spend lots of money in advertising in other ways, but he could not spend any money better than by altering this picture of the misery of men in the service of the State.
I am sure everybody will be anxious to hear the reply of the right hon. Gentleman, and my excuse for intervening is that this is a question which very largely affects a considerable section of my Constituents. It is often alleged that we constantly have our eyes on votes, and that our actions are dictated accordingly. I am not in a position to claim that those on behalf of whom I now intend to speak are very strong supporters of my own. I know they have grievances, for they have constantly made representations to me, and I feel it my duty to convey to this House those representations whenever opportunity offers. The right, hon. Gentleman is very actively engaged in a campaign of popularising the Army. I recognise the necessity for an Army. I am not one of those who believe that the Utopian day has arrived when we can afford to do without armaments. I believe that the consideration of the human element in the Army is of primary consequence, and, because of the fact that I have been brought into intimate association with a number of men who have suffered grievances in the light of what the hon Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans) has told the Committee to-night, I am going to support the Motion he has made. I know that in my own Constituency, which is an excellent recruiting centre—and in that I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will bear me out—this disability does act as a positive deterrent of recruiting. I know that fathers who have had experience of this, who have rightfully got married and, whatever term of service they have put in, have never been able to get "on the strength," have warned their sons against it. After all, I take it everybody will admit that a young man has a right to contemplate entering into the married state when he reaches a certain age.
The question of cost seems to be one that undoubtedly weighs materially with the Government and the Department. I am not able to give any exact figures in this matter. I gather that the hon. Gentleman's estimate is below the mark. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is it?"] From £20,000 to £25,000. Nevertheless I cannot conceive that if that would be commensurate to removing the grievance the Chancellor of the Exchequer would place any obstacle whatever in the way. I do believe that we have established a case for a full inquiry into the matter. I regret that the Report to which the hon. Gen-Gentleman referred has not been placed at the disposal of every Member of the Committee. The reason submitted by the Secretary for War may be a good one, but it is hardly convincing to me. If that Report was ready so far back as December, we might have had it for the purpose of this discussion, because I presume the right hon. Gentleman himself anticipated it would inevitably arise. I am perhaps a little more fortunate than some hon. Members, inasmuch as the hon. Member for Colchester has been good enough to intimate to me—I trust I am breaking no confidence—
Not at all.
Not the whole Report, but certain parts of it, which prove of interest to me. There certainly is established there a very substantial grievance, namely, that the system is unjust to the soldier who fails to get on the strength. After all, he is not a worse man than the man who is fortunate enough to get on the strength. It is not as if you set up any standard of character or qualification which is applicable to the whole Army. It may very well happen that the least efficient man has the greatest amount of success in this matter. At any rate, I can attest to this fact, that some men who have been thoroughly deserving of getting on the strength have failed to do so. That is extremely bad for the Army as a whole. I claim that the soldier is a direct servant of the State. We on these benches have always claimed that the State ought to be a model employer, and if we are able to submit evidence proving that that standard is violated, we have every right to claim that this case should be adequately considered by the House of Commons. I am aware of the fact, and am able to assure the right hon. Gentleman from personal inquiry, that many a soldier does suffer in efficiency because of his inability to get on the marriage strength. I have personally known of men who have had to devote part of their rations to the maintenance of their wives and children. I suppose that the amount of rations is determined by the necessities of the individual soldier, and that he does not get more than sufficient to sustain himself in a state of ordinary physical efficiency. Therefore, if circumstances compel him to release a certain amount of those rations for the maintenance of his family, it assuredly happens that the State suffers through inefficient military service to that extent.
Then, of course, there is the moral implication of the whole matter. We know that the women and the children do suffer. It is stated in the Report that provision might be made to find work for the women. I enter my protest even against such a suggestion. If a man is rendering good and necessary service to the State, he ought to be assured of such a reward as will enable him to maintain himself and his family in a state of decency and comfort. Certainly the conditions in which these men now have to live compel us to rule out the possibility of the woman being unable to make any real contribution to the weekly income of the soldier married off the strength. In a certain district of the Constituency which I represent I can assure the Committee that the children of the soldier married off the strength can be marked out as compared with the children of the comfortably circumstanced artisan class in that district. Every school teacher knows it. For some years I was a member of the Norwich School Board, and this fact was constantly brought to our notice. I know that it has not tended to popularise the Army among the more thoughtful people in whose midst I have recently moved. The hon. Member's suggestions seem to me to be of an extremely moderate character. I feel that when men join the Army and have reached the age at which we acknowledge that men ought to be allowed to marry, irrespective even of service or rank, they ought to be permitted to do so. I believe that to be good for the Army and for the nation as a whole, and certainly it would tend to greater morality. The hon. Member has made certain suggestions which are a slight improvement upon these recommendations made by this Committee. I most heartily associate myself with him. If they err at all it is on the side of moderation, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will assure us of his inability to give practical effect to them. Certainly we are on very strong ground when we say that at the expiration of twelve years these men are invited to re-engage. Then if the State feels that these men ought not to be placed on the married establishment, and that there is no possibility, of their so doing, they ought to reject these men and not allow them to re-engage. I believe that to be bad for the Army because after all these men are men of experience and character, and altogether most eligible soldiers. Having regard to that I feel that the suggestion is such as certainly ought to heartily commend itself to the House as a whole. Then the Departmental officers are men fixed in life, and do not in any way affect the consideration of the mobility of the Army. We all have to acknowledge that this is a very important consideration, and when we contemplate such a grievance as this, these men being practically fixed, and having seven years' service, I think that is a very moderate suggestion, and one which ought to be accepted. I believe herein lies one of the greatest detriments to recruiting in the Army.
When I became Secretary of State for War I was much impressed by the disabilities under which the wives of soldiers married off the strength laboured. I am grateful to the hon. Member (Mr. Worthington-Evans) for having given me this opportunity of pressing forward a reform which seemed to me to be one of the most important for the Army. If I took him up just now a little sharply for complaining that the rest of the House had not got this document, it was because anyone hearing him speak must think that this question of the conditions of marriage off the strength was one where I was refusing to move, and he and others were asking me to move. The position is the exact reverse. I induced Mrs. Tennant, whose report this is, to take up this inquiry. No one could be better qualified than she is. I am sure I speak for the whole of the House when I say we are grateful to her for the immense care and labour she gave to this, one of the most difficult problems connected with the Army. Having, I hope, made it quite clear that this is my own child, a thing I am most keen about, and that no one is asking me now to recede from a position, but is, on the other hand, helping me forward on a path which I have myself set going—
He claims that it is his proposal.
I do not think so. I only wish the Committee to understand that this is a matter which was initiated by me, and I am very glad the hon. Member (Mr. Worthington-Evans) has given me an opportunity of bringing it before the House.
I do not wish to claim the initiation. I never made such a claim at all. What I said was that in January last year I opened correspondence with the right hon. Gentleman, and that in March he appointed the Committee.
I do not think we need quarrel about this. There is no doubt about the facts. There is no credit due to me as Secretary of State for being concerned about soldiers married off the strength. All the credit that is due to me is that I induced Mrs. Tennant to take up the inquiry. What is really proposed by the hon. Gentleman opposite, and by my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, whose excellent speech, I am sure, we all listened to with pleasure, is that we should adopt a large portion of this report, if not all, for they admitted that some of it went very far. They proposed that we should do two things. Their first proposal is that we should greatly increase the number of soldiers who may be married, whether off or on the strength. That is the first point which would be involved in the acceptance of this report. Secondly, they propose that we should take steps as suggested in the appendix to give a better time to those who are now married off the strength. Neither of my hon. Friends suggested anything better than Mrs. Tennant proposes. In regard to the first point—are we going to have a much more married Army? Figures have been quoted in this Debate to suggest what should be done. I do not think hon. Members realise how vast would be the cost of increasing substantially the married establishment of the Army. I say at once that I am on their side. I think the proposal is a wise one; but let the House be under no delusion as to what it will cost. Even on our own restricted establishment we have had to spend £435,000 on additional accommodation for the wives and families of men in the British Army in the last five years. That is not an inclusive figure. There is more than that. The figure I have given is not conclusive against the proposal, but it means that it is very expensive. I think we ought to face it. I am quite sure that if we are going to say that the British soldier is a person who is to have every advantage in return for the bad climate in which he lives, we must also say that we ought not to unduly restrict him from leading a decent family life. It was for that reason I initiated this policy. I hope the House will not refuse the necessary funds when the time comes for facing the additional cost to make provision for married soldiers. Turn to the other side of the question, as to the provision to be made for the existing wives married off the strength. It would be impossible to exaggerate the tragedy of a departure of one of our units for foreign service. Many of us have seen it. It is a thing you can never forget—the wives and children left behind. Faced with this tragedy, most of those whom I consulted in the matter, even the kindest—indeed, especially the kindest—of them, say that the answer to this is that you must, by every means in your power, discourage the marriage of soldiers in an Army like the British Army, of which about half serves abroad, where children cannot be reared.
Hear, hear.
I notice that at least one hon. Gentleman agrees with that view, and probably a great many do. I do not agree. I believe that to go further than we have done in discouraging them is unwise. I think that, taking a long view, you have got to look down a very long road in considering what is best for the Army with this most delicate matter, and I believe that further restrictions on marriage would be a profound mistake.
You could not have more than you have got.
Indeed you might have the restrictions that did obtain in the past, and that do obtain in the case of those who volunteer for service abroad in the armies on the Continent. Our provision for the married soldier on the strength, for whom we provided this £435,000 during the last five years, is far greater than in the past, but I demur to the position of hon. Gentlemen opposite that our proper course is to restrict within the narrowest limits permission for marriage in the British Army. I may be told that the result of what I have said to-night must be a permanent addition to the Army Estimates. I accept that. I agree that we must do it, and I hope that the House will support me. When I appointed this Committee I foresaw the result, and I may say that I did not do this without consultation with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has taken a personal interest with this question. You cannot go too quickly. That would defeat your own object; but we can go some of the road which is recommended here—I mean with regard to the future—and we shall be well advised with doing it. I know full well that many hon. Gentlemen opposite and many soldiers in the Army will say that this is no unwise step, and that if you are going to have a Foreign-Service Army, you must have a celibate Army. Frankly, I join issue. I do not agree; and we propose to adopt a large portion of the proposal contained in this Report for the extension of privileges to the wives of soldiers, who are now regarded as married off the strength. That involves, not only additional funds in the way of travelling allowance and other matters, but it will involve, undoubtedly, expense in the provision of, and improvement of, married quarters. That, also, we must face. I have told the House that this has got to be done, and I hope that they will support me in providing the necessary funds.
What is the estimated cost?
The question of cost was referred to by the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans), and he put it at £25,000 a year. My view is that it would cost more than double that amount.
What amount?
I am not going into detail, but if we take the consequential increases in respect of the married quarters the sum would be much larger. If the Committee supports the proposal, I am bound to say that I do not see how it is to do it in a Division on the reduction. But since the Committee apparently approves of the proposal put forward, I must state that it involves an addition of many tens of thousands to the Estimates, and, including the married quarters, it might cost £60,000 or £80,000.
Does that include the expense of the married quarters in India, and of conveying the wives and families to India, or is it an extra expense falling upon the Government in India?
I cannot go into details on particular points. I can only deal with the question of policy, which involves the very point raised by my hon. Friend with regard to India. We shall have to make a large provision for the carriage of soldiers and their families to India and back. We have also to provide more accommodation for the families in India. I am persuaded that India would be ill-advised if she demurred to an increase in the married establishment of the British Army. I understand that it is necessary for the financial arrangements that we should now have the Votes put down on the Paper—Vote I., Vote X., and Votes XIII., XIV., and XV. If the Committee will be good enough to pass those Votes it will be in accordance with the arrangement made on both sides.
May we take it that the presence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer here to-night indicates that he, also, is in sympathy with our proposal?
I think it would embarrass my right hon. Friend less if I were to state that his presence in the House to-night may be taken as an indication of his interest in this particular question of housing the wives and families of soldiers. I may say that he is entirely at one with me, and has authorised me to make this statement.
May I ask if something else will not be cut down in order to meet this expenditure?
My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans), in an admirable and lucid speech, drew attention to two or three perfectly definite and moderate proposals. I have listened to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in vain to hear whether he agrees with those specific proposals or whether he does not. I feel we have had an interesting exhibition of vague generalities from the Front Bench opposite and we have not got the slightest satisfaction as to whether the thing is going to be done at once, or whether anything definite is going to be done or not. I would say, further, that I think the right
hon. Gentleman did very scant justice to the Report which he commended, and which said specifically that on military grounds a substantial addition to the married strength was impracticable and ought to be discouraged to the utmost. The proposals of the hon. Member for Colchester are entirely in accordance with the Report issued, and the right hon. Gentleman has failed to support those proposals or to give the House any definite promise that he is going to carry them out. Therefore, if my hon. Friend goes to a Division I shall certainly support him.
Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £8,704,900, be granted for the said Service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 212; Noes, 249.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
It being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Resolutions to be reported to-morrow (Friday); Committee to sit again Tomorrow.
East African Protectorates Loans
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the Treasury to advance to the Government of the Protectorates of British East Africa, Nyasaland, and Uganda, for the purpose of those Protectorates, sums not exceeding in the whole three million pounds, the Advances to be local loans within the meaning of the National Debt and Local Loans Act, 1887."—[ Mr. Harcourt. ]
I do not want to object to this Vote, but I would like to I have some little explanation of it. I understand this Resolution is brought forward in order that a Bill may be founded upon it, the object of that Bill being to authorise Parliament to make a loan to the East African Protectorates. If that is so, I shall not oppose this stage to-night, because I think it shows symptoms of better management and repentance on the part of the Government, in so much as the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary, the son of a great Chancellor of the Exchequer, is carrying out the great traditions of the Liberal party, and is coming in advance to receive the sanction of Parliament. If that is so, he is setting an example to other Members of the Cabinet and of the Liberal party behind him. Under those circumstances I shall not oppose the Motion.
The hon. Baronet is quite right. This is a Resolution upon which I propose to found a Bill, acting upon the precedent of the Colonial Loans Act, 1899, and I am only asking this Resolution in order that the Bill may be introduced.
Is that the precedent upon which the hon. Gentleman acted with regard to the Persian Loan?
That was a email sum out of £700,000.
Does the Liberal party act in one way if the sum is a small one and in another way if it is a large one?
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported to-morrow.
Housing in Dublin
I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
I desire to call attention to the Report lately issued by the Departmental Committee on Housing Conditions in Dublin. I want to draw the attention of the Chief Secretary to this matter, and ask him what he proposes to do. Of all the Reports ever issued to this House this Report gives a picture of the most scandalous state of affairs we have ever known.
There are 5,000 tenement houses in Dublin, 1,500 of them are stated to be unfit for human habitation, 2,000 so decayed and badly constructed as to be fast approaching the border line of being unfit. Two thousand families are living in single-room tenements, and the average number per room is over six. Taking Dublin as a whole, 229 people out of every 1,000 live in single-room tenements, and, if compared with Belfast the number is only three per 1,000. I think this is a remarkable commentary upon the different character of the governments in Dublin and Belfast, and shows that the housing conditions are infinitely better in Belfast than in Dublin. There are worse things than that. We have got it in evidence that members of the corporation are owners of some of these houses which are unfit for human habitation. Three members of the corporation are owners of this slum property. That is not the worst part of it. Under a private Act passed for Dublin a little while ago an arrangement was made whereby in the case of small houses a rebate might be given under certain conditions in the local taxation to make it easier for the corporation to house the working classes at a cheaper rent. We find that three members of the corporation who are owners of this property have been accepting a rebate from the local rates, while the conditions under which alone the rebate could be given were modified in their case by the medical officer in order to allow them to get the rebate. I think that is one of the most scandalous transactions for a long time, and I ask the Chief Secretary whether it is proposed to take any steps to make those members of the corporation to refund those sums which ought to have been paid in relief of local taxation. I am aware that the corporation have endeavoured to deal with the housing question. It is true that they have built a certain proportion of new houses and are letting them at a non-economic rent, which is imposing a heavy burden on the ratepayers
Will the hon. Gentleman quote the Report on that point?
The Report contains the most severe condemnation of the conduct of the corporation. The corporation put forward as a plea for the existence of this insanitary property that they had not the power properly to deal with the situation. What does the Report say? The plea of the corporation in regard to insufficiency of powers would have had considerable force if the evidence suggested a ready administration of the existing powers. The corporation have failed to use the powers they have got now, and their plea that they had not sufficient powers falls to the ground. I should like to know what is going to be done. I think it is quite clear that a most scandalous state of affairs as regards housing exists in Dublin.
Give them Home Rule.
The hon. Member who interrupted me just now (Mr. Brady) said the other day, I think with great truth, that a good deal of the industrial unrest in Dublin in the last few years has been due to the scandalous housing conditions.
Might I point out that this Report also finds that the corporation of Dublin have done all they could in the way of the erection of houses for the working classes consistent with the resources at their disposal? That was the passage that I wanted the hon. and gallant Gentleman to read.
The Report also says that, with regard to dealing with insanitary property and clearing slums, they have not used the powers they have got, and that there have been these grave scandals in connection with members of the corporation. I ask the Chief Secretary what steps he intends to take. I heard someone just now say, Home Rule. We have a very good example here of Home Rule in Dublin.
I am glad the hon. and gallant Gentleman who, I know, takes such an interest in the housing question, should have been very carefully reading the Departmental Report which has just appeared with regard to the condition of the housing question in Dublin. It is a most valuable Report. It has been prepared in a comparatively short time, and I think that it shows the advantage of a Departmental Report over more pompous and cumbrous methods of inquiry. In a very short period of time a great mass of facts have been collected, and they have been presented in a manner which, at all events, has attracted the attention of the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I am only sorry that in a matter of this universal importance he should have thought it necessary to introduce, by comparison, a reference which gives it a political bearing.
It is in the Report.
I think that for anybody to make a comparison between Belfast and Dublin on the question of housing shows how impossible it is even in such a question as this and even for an hon. and gallant Gentleman whose enthusiasm and devotion to this cause to know how to keep politics out of it. Dublin is an ancient city full of houses of a particular kind and character, which once were inhabited by well-to-do persons in attendance upon the natal Parliament of the day, and which now are let out in tenement dwellings; and to compare it with a comparatively new city like Belfast, which everybody agrees has a greater demand upon industries than is possible, at present at all events, in the capital of Dublin is unfair.
The comparison is in the Report.
I dare say it may be, but the conditions of the two cities are of such a sort that to compare the one to the disadvantage of the other is what I call introducing mere party politics into a question which ought to be regarded, and which I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman is generally willing to regard as one altogether independent of those differences of opinion. The hon. and gallant Gentleman admitted that which is a fact: There is no town in the United Kingdom which has made more sacrifices for the purpose of providing accommodation for its working-class population than this City of Dublin. With regard to the three members of the corporation I am only glad that their sins should have been discovered, and that they should have been placed in this position. I only wish that other corporations who are equally peccant should be exposed in a similar way. I think it is most unfair to make any particular allegations in that way against any particular corporation. I think, until all corporations and until all members of corporations are discovered, and we know which of them own property of this description, and how many have availed themselves of Acts of Parliament or otherwise to shield their infirmities and cover up their ill deeds—until that has been done I think we had better for bear casting stones at one another Even the hon. Member's own constituency-may not be absolutely without reproach, and until it has been reported on, I, for my part, shall forbear expressing any opinion on that subject. I have a shrewd suspicion that there are other corporations who would not come better out of such a searching inquiry than the Dublin Corporation, has done. The hon. Member is very anxious to know what I am going to do with this Report. We shall wait until the Report is completed, and until we have the appendix, which will enable us to compare the condition of things not only in Dublin, but in other towns, and will also enable us to form some opinion as to the size of the problem, the necessities of the case, and how it is best to proceed. Until that can be done, I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that our anxiety on this subject does not yield to his.
I must say that a more astonishing speech than that to which we have just listened has never been uttered in this House. The charge is made that the corporation have failed to do their duty. That charge is based on the Report of a Departmental Committee. They are found guilty of not having carried out the powers which they have, and they are found guilty, as I understand it, of having three of their members corrupt. What does the right hon. Gentleman say? He says, "You have no right to accuse these gentlemen."
I said nothing of the kind.
You have no right to accuse the Corporation of Dublin, because you have not had an inquiry into-every other corporation in the Kingdom. If every corporation is to be presumed guilty until it is proved to be innocent, that is exactly the converse of the maxim of English law. If such scandals occurred in any English corporation there would be an inquiry, and if they have not been exposed at present the Government are grossly to blame. It seems a perfectly just and logical conclusion to draw that here you have got two towns in Ireland, one governed by a Unionist council and one governed by a Nationalist council. That governed by the Unionist council is found' to be efficient and pure. The Nationalist Council is found to be corrupt and rotten. Yet these men who you have found in this way to be so very much superior to the Nationalist Council, you propose to put under a Government which is exactly the counterpart of the Dublin Corporation. I venture to say that such a conclusion is amply justified. It is not dragged in by the heels; it was a comparison made by the Departmental Committee itself. It is a perfectly legitimate comparison, and however much hon. Gentlemen opposite may dislike it, they may be well assured that we shall continue to draw attention to it.
Will not the right hon. Gentleman answer the question which has been put to him by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dudley (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen)? Do the Government intend during this Session to do anything to remove the unfortunate conditions which are shown up in this Report?
Can he give us any information on that head?
I have already said that as soon as this Report has been completed —[HON. MEMBERS: "It is complete."] No, it is not complete. We have to consider not only Dublin, but whether there are provisions necessary for other parts of Ireland. We do not propose that we should deal with one only, or spend all our money on one object and not on others. As soon as we have the whole Report before us, with the Appendices, we shall give it that consideration it deserves.
It being half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Half after Eleven o'clock.