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Commons Chamber

Volume 60: debated on Tuesday 31 March 1914

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House Of Commons

Tuesday, 31st March, 1914.

The House met at Half-past Ten of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Royal Assent

Message received to attend the Lords Commissioners.

The House went, and having returned, Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to

1. Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Act, 1914.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 30th March, suspended the Sitting of the House until a quarter before Three of the clock.

At a Quarter before Three of the clock the House resumed, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Housing Of Working Classes (Ireland)

presented a petition from the Town Commissioners of Bally-bay, county Monaghan, in favour of such legislation as would give municipal authorities in Ireland greater facilities for providing better housing accommodation for the working classes in the cities and towns of that country.

Private Business

Private Bills (Petition for additional Provision) (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—

Walsall Corporation Bill.

Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

Kidsgrove Gas Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

London Electric Railway Bill,

King's Consent signified; Bill read the third time, and passed.

Chiswick Urban District Council Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the-third time.

Port of London Authority Bill (by Order),

Third Reading deferred till To-morrow.

Industrial And Provident Societies Act, 1893

Copy presented of Regulation, dated 28th March, 1914, made by the Treasury-under Section 74 of the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

National Insurance Act

Copy presented of Provisional Special Order, dated 26th March, 1914, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee and the Insurance Commissioners, acting jointly, entitled the National Health Insurance (Subsidiary Employments) Provisional Order, 1914 (No. 1) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 172.]

Shops Act, 1912

Copies presented of Orders made by the Councils of the boroughs of Bootle and Carlisle, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Police Act, 1890

Copy presented of Correspondence relative to the refusal of the Secretary of State's certificate under Section 17 (2) of The Police Act, 1890, to the Tyne River Police Force, for the year ended 29th September, 1913 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Board Of Agriculture And Fisheries

Copy presented of Annual Report for 1913 of Proceedings under The Small Holdings and Allotments Acts and other Acts (Part II. Allotments and Miscellaneous) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Copy presented of Annual Report on the Administration of the Grant for the Encouragement and Improvement of the Light Horse Breeding Industry for the year from 1st November, 1912 to 31st October, 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Diseases Of Animals Acts

Copy presented of Order, No. 9061, dated 26th March, 1914, and entitled the Liverpool (Birkenhead) Foreign Animals Wharf Order of 1914 (No. 2) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers To Questions

United States (British Commercial Agents)

1.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in what portions of the United States the British commercial agent is employed; what is the general nature of his duties; what salary and allowance he receives; under what Vote the money is paid; what commercial agents are employed elsewhere; what salaries are paid them; and under which Votes do they appear?

There is no longer a commercial agent in the United States. An extra Vice-Consul has been appointed to do the work of the late commercial agent at New York. There is a commercial attaché in each of the following countries:—

Salary.
£
France500
Germany1,200
Japan900
Turkey800
China1,000
There are three attachés for Austria-Hungary, Italy and Greece; Russia; and Spain, Portugal and Morocco, with their headquarters in London, with salaries from £600 to £900 per annum. The commercial attaché in Paris is also resident British Director of the Suez Canal Company. Provision for the salaries is made in the Diplomatic and Consular Vote, see Class V., No. 1, of the Estimates for Civil Services.

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to consider the advisability of appointing commercial agents as in the United States in different parts?

Railway Concessions (Asia Minor)

2.

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether the Commercial Bank of Milan have obtained a concession to build a railway from Adalia to the English railway of Smyrna, to Aidin; whether this concession violates the treaty made with the British company of 1856, which should permit the British company to construct a line between Eyerdir and Adalia; and, if so, what steps will be taken to safeguard British interests?

The answer to the first two questions is in the negative; in reply to the third, discussions are proceeding between the Smyrna-Aidin Company and the representative of an Italian syndicate. It has been agreed that those discussions shall, pending a final conclusion, be treated as confidential, but one of their objects is to safeguard the interests of the Smyrna-Aidin Company.

India

Imports Of Intoxicating Liquors

3.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India, whether the imports of intoxicating liquors into India have increased from the value of £1,092,551 in 1911 to £1,243,265 in 1913; whether he can give the figures for each of the last ten years; and whether any steps are being taken to check the growing importation?

The reply to the first question is in the affirmative. Figures showing the quantity and value of the imports of intoxicating liquors for the last ten financial years will be circulated with the Votes. Taking a triennial average for the beginning and end of this period, a decrease in the quantity of imported liquor is shown, amounting in the case of spirits to a decrease of nearly 6 per cent. During the ten-year period the rates of duty have been twice enhanced and are now higher by 50 per cent, than at the beginning. [See Written Answers this date.]

Is the increase in imports officially said to be due to the greater prosperity of India?

There is no increase in the quantities; it is only an increase in values, and that, I think, is accounted for by the increase in the rates of duty.

Sovereigns Imported

5.

asked the number of sovereigns imported into India during the current year, approximately?

The net imports of sovereigns into India in the first ten months of the year 1913–14 were £5,044,100. The net imports for the whole financial year may be estimated at £7,400,000.

Does this great falling off, in conjunction with the lower prices, accepted for Council Bills mean that the Government of India has successfully attempted to check the flow of gold to India?

Bankruptcy Laws

6.

asked the Under-Secretary for India if he is aware that the absence of any provision in the Indian Bankruptcy Acts corresponding to the provision of the British bankruptcy law, whereby an act of insolvency is committed if a notice to pay is served on a debtor and remains unsatisfied for seven days after service, is regarded by traders in India as placing them at a disadvantage as compared with Home traders; and can he say on what grounds the Secretary of State is advised that the difference in position is more apparent than real, and that the remedy provided to creditors in India is equally effective?

Under Indian law, if a judgment creditor is unable to obtain satisfaction for his judgment debt, he may apply for notice to issue to the judgment debtor to show cause why he should not be committed to prison. If the debtor be committed by the Court to prison, such commitment amounts to an act of insolvency upon which the creditor can take action in the Insolvency Court. The judgment creditor has thus a remedy as effective as the bankruptcy procedure of this country and not dissimilar from it.

Criminal Procedure

7.

asked the Under-Secretary for India whether the attention of the Secretary of State for India has been drawn to the conduct of Mr. Oakden, superintendent of district Debra Dun, and as such district magistrate of Mussoorie, in transferring from the hearing and adjudication of Mr. Hoare, deputy magistrate of Mussoorie, to the hearing and adjudication of Mr. Grant, assistant magistrate of Debra, the case of Hearsey v. Forster, in which a criminal breach of trust was alleged, when no application for such transfer was made by the parties, and after Mr. Hoare had recorded some evidence and expressed his intention to frame a charge; whether such transfer was made by Mr. Oakden on the informal complaint of one of the witnesses in the case, a Mr. Priestley, manager of the Mussoorie branch of the Alliance Bank of Simla, where the accused kept his floating and loan accounts, and to whom Mr. Hoare had issued an order to allow such accounts to be inspected by the prosecution; whether, notwithstanding that there is no provision in the Indian criminal procedure code investing district magistrates with revisional or corrective jurisdiction in cases which are being tried by deputy magistrates, Mr. Oakden, on the strength of Mr. Priestley's communication and without giving the prosecution any hearing in the matter, called upon Mr. Hoare, who is a first-class magistrate, for an explanation of his conduct of the case, and incidentally quashing Mr. Hoare's order for inspection, transferred the case as stated above; whether he is aware that in his explanatory letter to Mr. Oakden, Mr. Hoare charges Mr. Priestley with having on three or four occasions after the institution of the case attempted to influence Mr. Hoare in favour of the accused, and that, although this circumstance along with the other facts of the case were made the subject of a representation by the counsel for the prosecution to the legal remembrancer to the Government of the united provinces of Agra and Oudh, no remedial action was taken by the officer in question or by the judicial secretary to the local Government; and will the Secretary of State for India direct that copies of this representation and the papers referred to therein be forwarded to the India Office, and state whether any action will be taken by him to prevent a repetition of the abuses complained of, and in particular what action it is proposed to take to prevent Europeans holding influential positions in India from endeavouring to influence magistrates in favour of parties in cases which are being tried by such magistrates?

On a point of Order. May I ask if there is any space limit for questions put on the Paper?

In explanation of that question may I explain that the details were very numerous and to the very best of my ability and with the assistance of the clerk I reduced them.

If we have very many questions of this kind I think we shall have to introduce some regulation. But this is an exceptional case.

If the objection is pressed I must decline to put the question. I could not summarise it in briefer form.

I have not heard of the case. If the hon. Member will supply me with the evidence on which he bases his suggestions, the Secretary of State will consider the matter.

Non-Alcoholic Drinks For Soldiers

8.

asked the Under-Secretary for India whether his attention has been drawn to the Brigade Order No. 11, issued to the 3rd Infantry Brigade, and dated 14th February, 1913, in which the supply and transport officer is authorised, on the recommendation of the senior medical officer, to make a free issue of rum to the troops in camp; whether arrangements are made under similar circumstances for a free issue of non-alcoholic drinks to the troops; and whether such an arrangement is official and confirmed by Order?

I have to thank my hon. Friend for supplying me with a copy of the Order in question. Under the Army Regulations the senior medical officer may recommend the free issue of rum on occasions as a medical precaution to troops on service attended by cold or wet. When practicable a free ration of tea may be given as an alternative.

Sitapur Murder Case

9.

asked whether it is the intention of the Government of India to allow the sentence of transportation for life passed upon Gangha Singh, in the Sitapur murder case, to be carried out without snaking any inquiries into the truth of the statements made to the police since the trial implicating one Mathura in this murder, and alleging that he had already been the subject of previous charges of murder; and, if so, whether, in view of the fact that Gangha Singh was acquitted by the only Court that tried him and heard the evidence, and that doubts exist as to the justice of his subsequent conviction, the Secretary of State will now direct that these inquiries should be made?

The Secretary of State has no information as to any such statements. The story about Mathura did not form part of the defence in the first case, either in the original trial or on appeal; nor was it advanced in the original trial of Bachan Singh. When it did appear in Bachan Singh's appeal it was not supported by any evidence, and was discredited by the Assistant Judicial Commissioner. It subsequently came to the notice of, and was the subject of careful consideration by, the Local Government, the Government, of India and the Secretary of State in Council in connection with Gangha Singh's memorial. The decision on that memorial has already been stated, and the Secretary of State sees no sufficient reason for directing that further inquiry should be made.

Do I understand that inquiries have been made into the facts alleged in the petition?

Yes, Sir; they have been the subject of careful consideration by the Local Government, the Government of India, and the Secretary of State in Council.

Can my hon. Friend say if, as a result of the inquiry, it has been found to be the fact that this man Ganglia Singh has been accused of murder previously?

I can inquire into that, but it was not included in the original petition.

It is of no use making inquiries unless they are made as to the particular points mentioned in the petition.

Tirah Campaign

10.

asked whether on occasions when the Indian Army has been engaged in frontier operations native officers and men have been informed that they may disappear if they have conscientious objections to engaging in military operations against men of their own race and religion?

The answer is in the affirmative. On the occasion of the Tirah expedition the Government of India decided that Afridi soldiers should be excused from service, and directed that those serving in corps detailed for service with the force were not to be so employed.

War Medals

13.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the claim made as long ago as 3rd December, 1913, on behalf of C. Cooper, of Knutsford, Cheshire, for an Indian war medal, will how be settled; and, in view of the applicant's age, whether he will cable to India, if necessary, for a reply to his letter of December last?

I understand that the India Office have not yet received a reply on this case from the Government of India, and that no reply is expected before the middle of next month.

Will the hon. Gentleman telegraph—this man has been awaiting a reply since early in December last?

British Army

Small Arms Factory, Enfield

17.

asked the Secretary for War whether he is aware of the hardship involved in the recent reductions in ratings which have had recently to be enforced at the Small Arms Factory, Enfield, owing to improved processes of manufacture and the consequent reduction in the number of workmen for whom work is available, and also to the lack of new work coming forward; and whether the War Office will consider whether the manufacture of articles other than those designed for the arming of troops could be profitably undertaken?

I am informed that about twenty men have recently been transferred from one part of the factory to another owing to improvements in processes. Some of these have suffered a reduction in rating. No hardship is known to have been caused through lack of work. It is not proposed to undertake in the Ordnance Factories the manufacture of articles not required by the Admiralty or the War Office.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that quite recently the War Office paid £120,000 for the purchase of chassis abroad?

18.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, under present regulations, an employé is liable to be discharged, though capable of work, from the Small Arms Factory on reaching the age of sixty, with a gratuity which represents on an average but six months of the salary he was earning; whether the Treasury have put repeated difficulties for twenty years to any contributory scheme of pension put forward by the employés; and whether he will inquire as to the terms of pension and gratuity on retirement now, in existence in other large firms such as Vickers-Maxim and Harrods?

Employés are liable to be discharged at the age of sixty, with the gratuities provided by the Superannuation Acts, but thoroughly efficient workmen may be kept on till sixty-five. A contributory scheme of pension has been under consideration in the War Office—not the Treasury—for some time. The delay has been due to defects in the schemes put forward on behalf of the workmen, which were found upon actuarial examination to be unsound, but I hope that this difficulty has now been surmounted. In the circumstances, I do not think the inquiries suggested would be likely to be of use.

As regards the question of superannuation—the hon. Member knows to What I am alluding—is there any prospect of that being settled before Whitsuntide?

Johannesburg (Use Of Imperial Troops)

22.

asked the Secretary of State for War if, on the occasion of Imperial troops killing twenty men and wounding several hundred people in the streets of Johannesburg in July last, any officers tendered their resignations or threatened to do so?

I have no reason to believe that any resignations were tendered on the occasion referred to.

In the recent disturbances in South Africa were any Imperial troops employed?

Railway Strike, 1911 (Army Officers)

23.

asked if, on the occasion of the military being called out in connection with the railway strike in 1911, officers were informed that they might disappear if they had conscientious objections to supporting the civil authorities?

Education (Scotland) Fund

31.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether representations have been made to him in respect of the diminution in the balance of the Education (Scotland) Fund; and whether, in consequence of the position in which voluntary schools in Scotland are placed, he can see his way to secure an increase of the Grant?

Such representations have been made, and the question of increased Grants for education is under the consideration of the Government.

Moffat School Board

32.

asked whether the janitor and inspector at Moffat is a retired soldier whose services have given complete satisfaction to the school board; and whether the Education Department insisted upon appointing a physical instructress in his place, and as the school board objected they cut off a portion of the Grant?

In 1911 the school board of Moffat appointed an ex-driver of the Royal Artillery to the combined post of janitor, attendance officer and "drill instructor" in their higher-grade school. For the former two posts he is probably quite competent, but, as was pointed out to the Board at the time of his appointment, he has no recognised qualification for taking charge of the physical exercise instruction of a higher-grade school which is something quite different in purpose and method from military drill. At a subsequent visit by the chief inspector of physical training (October, 1912) his work was reported on as being unintelligent and ineffective, and a reduction of the Grant was accordingly made in terms of Article 144 of the Code. The advisability of appointing a woman teacher for the older girls has been repeatedly brought to the notice of the Board, and a temporary appointment of this nature has now been made.

Physical Instruction (Scotland)

33.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Education Department are now insisting that physical instruction shall hence-forth be given by those who hold a diploma from one of the gymnasia recognised by the Department; whether a Dane has been appointed an instructor in physical drill; and whether, as a result, the appointment of ex Army men as attendance officers is being hereby prejudiced?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative as regards primary schools, and in the affirmative, as a rule, in the case of higher-grade and secondary schools. With regard to the second part of the question, the governors of Dunfermline College of Hygiene and Physical Training have appointed a Dane to be one of their instructors of physical exercises, and this gentleman has been employed temporarily by the Scotch Education Department for the inspection of physical exercises under the supervision of the chief inspector of that subject. This appointment does not seem to have any possible bearing on the question of the employment by school boards of ex-Army men as attendance officers.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman do something to obtain the employment of soldiers on what is really the special work of the Army; and will he not communicate with the officer in charge of the gymnasia in the Army and try to get soldiers trained for this special purpose?

That is a question of which the Noble Lord should give me special notice. The training of soldiers is rather outside of my Department.

Island Of Lewis (Uig Cottars)

34.

asked whether the case of the imprisoned Lewis cottars was treated as one of contempt of Court; and whether it was so treated from the first or, if not, what was the reason for the change?

These cottars have from the first been treated as prisoners committed for contempt of Court.

Am I to gather from that that there has been no change in these prisoners' dress since they first went into gaol?

Probably my hon. Friend did not hear what I said the other day, that they preferred the dress of untried prisoners. It was their own choice, and was not adopted under compulsion.

Has my right hon. Friend any statement to make as to whether these men will be released?

Yes, Sir. I have received news to-day from which I gather that they will be prepared to give the undertaking to the Court.

In these circumstances, will it be possible for the Court to review the sentences, as the Court at present is not sitting?

I know there is that technical difficulty, but if there is any way in which I can assist the Lord President and the Court to get over that technical difficulty I shall be only too pleased to do so.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also consider the desirability of reviewing the circumstances of the land problem in the Island of Lewis?

I do not think we can look at it with more sympathetic eyes or take more care in dealing with it than we have been doing. We shall certainly not relax our efforts to settle as many cottars as we can on the land.

Departmental Committees (Scotland)

35.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether any declaration similar to that made by Members before accepting to serve on Committees on Private Bills is required from persons before selection to serve on Departmental Committees in Scotland; and, if not, what steps he takes to ascertain that a person has no pecuniary or other personal interest in the matter to be examined and reported upon by the Committee?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, it does not necessarily follow that an interest of the nature mentioned should disqualify a person from serving upon a Departmental Committee. Much would depend upon the nature of the interest and the character of the inquiry, and the suitability of persons to serve on a Committee is fully considered before they are appointed.

National Insurance Act

Medical Benefit

26.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the decision of the county of Worcester local medical committee that vaccine injections and operations for appendicitis shall not form part of the medical benefit for insured persons; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter, so that insured persons shall have the adequate treatment to which they are statutorily entitled?

The medical benefit regulations provide that any question as to whether an insured person is entitled to any particular service should be considered by the local medical committee and the insurance committee, and their conclusions reported to the Commissioners, by whom the question might further he referred for decision by a board of referees specially constituted for the purpose. My right hon. Friend understands that in the cases referred to no decision has yet been reached, and it would be premature therefore to make any statement on the subject.

Excessive Sickness Committee

28.

asked how many invitations were issued to secretaries of approved societies inviting them to give evidence before the Departmental Committee on excessive sickness and deficiencies under the National Insurance Act?

Sixty-six invitations have been issued to secretaries of approved societies with a view to the selection of representatives for the purpose of giving evidence before the Committee.

29.

asked how long it will be before the Departmental Committee on excessive sickness and deficiencies under the National Insurance Act present their Report?

My right hon. Friend has nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Salisbury on the 16th February.

Domiciliary Visits

65.

asked whether officials of the Insurance Commissioners visit private houses and, without stating their business, endeavour to effect an entrance for the purpose of putting questions to householders or their servants upon the answers to which legal proceedings may be founded; and whether instructions will be given that such action by the Commissioners and their officials shall be stopped?

I am not aware of any case in which an official of the Commission has concealed the nature of his business in order to effect an entrance into a private house; the latter part of the hon. Member's question does not, therefore, arise.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there have been instances of such visits being made?

If the hon. Gentleman will show that the rules have been broken, I will see that they are not broken.

Special Medical Service (Scotland)

66.

asked what steps are to be taken to provide special medical service for sparsely populated districts in Scotland outside the Highland area; and what sum of money is to be devoted to that purpose?

The matter is at present under consideration. I may add that, in accordance with the promise given by my right hon. Friend, provision has been made in the Estimates for the ensuing financial year to enable a Grant for this purpose to be made.

Sanatorium Benefit

64.

asked if the man named Youatt, a consumptive and an insured contributor under the National Insurance Act, who has frequently become a charge upon the South Stoneham Guardians, owing to the insurance authorities refusing further responsibility for his case, was for a time an inmate of Tilford sanatorium; if the medical superintendent of that institution reported that the air at Tilford was too strong and cold for Youatt; if, on receiving this report, the only action taken by the county medical officer was to communicate with the South Stoneham Guardians to the effect that Youatt was due to be discharged; if all insured contributors suffering from tuberculosis are liable at any time to be discharged in this way; and if any compensation is payable to Poor Law authorities in respect of insured persons who leave their employment in expectation of receiving free hotel accommodation under the Insurance Act and become a charge upon the rates, owing to there being insufficient insurance funds to provide for their treatment?

I have nothing to add to my previous reply to the hon. Member, except that, as my right hon. Friend is informed, the medical superintendent of the Tilford sanatorium has made no such report.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman to reply to the last part of the question?

The provisions of the Act require that the contributions of insured persons should not be used in relief of rates.

Rhodesia (Elections)

36.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will issue a Return as to the views of the various candidates for the recent elections in Rhodesia, together with the votes polled for each; what proportion of the electorate were employed by the Chartered Company, and how many are employed on railways controlled by the company; how many coloured electors are on the register, and how many electors were on the register in each constituency; and whether the electors were in possession of his views regarding the misuse of his letter by Sir Starr Jameson before polling took place for the purpose of influencing votes in favour of the South African Chartered Company?

No, Sir. I cannot undertake to issue such a Return. I have seen difficulties even nearer home in dissecting the quality and quantity of a "mandate." The Resident Commissioner will, no doubt, in due course, report to me through the High Commissioner on the result of the elections, and I will consider whether his Report can be laid. I made a statement with regard to the letter referred to in this House, but except with respect to the reference to the Judicial Committee of the land question, in regard to which I caused a public announcement to be made in Southern Rhodesia, I have made no public statement in Southern Rhodesia.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to believe that the electors in Rhodesia had not a free choice in the selection of candidates?

Julia Decies (Appeal)

37.

asked the Secretary of State for the Horne Department when the appeal of Julia Decies, who was tried at the Central Criminal Court on 4th March, will be heard; if he is aware that the jury, in finding the prisoner guilty, strongly recommended her to mercy and that Mr. Justice Darling awarded seven years' penal servitude; and whether, in view of the health of the prisoner and the whole of the circumstances of the offence, he can see his way to recommend a remission of the sentence?

The Court of Criminal Appeal heard the prisoner's application yesterday and refused leave to appeal. I would refer the hon. Member to the judgment of the Court reported in the Press this morning, and, in view of what the Court said as to the sentence, I regret that I could not entertain the hon. Member's suggestion.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration some of the salient facts of this case which could not have been before the Court?

South African War (British Subjects Among Boers)

38.

asked the Home Secretary if he will submit a list of British subjects who fought on the side of the Boers in the South African war, and who subsequently received the Royal pardon?

The hon. Member is as well aware as I am, and the hon. Member whose case is referred to himself mentioned the fact quite recently in this House.

Garndolbenmaen Post Office

42.

asked the Postmaster-General whether telegrams addressed to those residents within three miles of Garndolbenmaen post office, Carnarvonshire, are accepted for delivery at the ordinary rate; and, if so, whether, in view of the loss incurred on the telegraph service, he will consider the desirability in the first instance of securing the residents a daily delivery of letters?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. No doubt such telegrams are handled at a loss to the taxpayer, but I do not think that this affords any argument for incurring the greater loss which a daily delivery of letters would entail.

43.

asked why certain persons residing within two miles of the post office at Garndolbenmaen, Carnarvonshire, have no daily delivery of letters, whilst those resident in the hills several miles away have a daily delivery; and by what authority a distinction is drawn between the postal privileges enjoyed by various residents in the same district, and who decides what is the area in respect of which an estimate is made as to the expense of a daily delivery of letters?

The extension of postal facilities in rural areas is necessarily governed by several considerations, among them the position of the houses at which delivery is to be made in relation to the delivery centres and the roads. Departure from the general rules in order to avoid apparent anomalies would involve expenditure which I could not justify. In cases such as this the Post Office often spends all and more than all the revenue which it receives.

Established Postmen (Ex-Soldiers And Sailors)

44.

asked whether appointments as established postmen are now limited to ex-soldiers and sailors, boy messengers, and other employés on the establishment of the Post Office?

Vacancies for established postmen are reserved for boy messengers and for ex-soldiers and ex-sailors. In a few exceptional cases appointments are conferred on auxiliary postmen.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman give special consideration to these auxiliary postmen, who, as boys, were appointed auxiliary postmen, and since then have drifted along to blind-alley employment?

We are not exactly able to do that except in cases where outsiders are unable to secure housing accommodation. When a man has been a long time an auxiliary postman, and his duties increase up to the standard required for a full time post, we usually appoint him to that post.

Why are ex-soldiers permitted privileges which are denied to ex-weavers and ex-miners?

Because some years ago, at my instance, when the Opposition were in office, they made a rule that ex-soldiers and ex-sailors were to have the first claim.

House Of Lords

47.

asked when the proposals for reconstituting the Second Chamber will be introduced?

Is that pledge still considered a debt of honour which will not brook delay?

Foot-And-Mouth Disease

39.

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether his attention has been called to the necessity of taking steps to put a stop to the spread of foot-and-mouth disease west of the Shannon, and pointing out the advisability of appointing a sentry on the different bridges to prevent the entrance of stock into the province of Connaught, and that railway companies be instructed not to book cattle to any railway station west of the Shannon; and whether he proposes to take any, and, if any, what, action in the matter?

Representations to the effect indicated in this question have been received. Stringent precautions have been taken by the Department with the object of preventing foot-and-mouth disease spreading from affected to unaffected parts of Ireland. Extensive districts, from which no movement of ruminant animals or swine is allowed, have been scheduled around the places of outbreak. In addition an Order has been issued similarly prohibiting animal movements from southward to northward of a defined line running from the coast near Drogheda on the east to Oranmore Bay, county Galway, on the west. The railway companies are duly observing this prohibition. By far the greater part of Connaught lies to the north of this line, which crosses the Shannon at Athlone. For the present these precautions are deemed sufficient. There has been no appearance of the disease in Connaught.

Why should any portion of Connaught be in the scheduled area seeing that, there is no disease near the place at all?

All I can say about that is that a line has to be drawn somewhere. Those who are on the wrong side of the line of course complain, but it has been very carefully drawn with a view to the whole of the facts of the situation. I think I can assure him that the moment the Department sees that it is possible to make an alteration, it will be done.

40.

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether, seeing that there is no foot-and-mouth disease in Scotland and seeing that sheep are admitted from Scotland, he will admit pedigree bulls, under strict regulations, into Ireland from Scotland?

The Department have had under consideration from time to time lately the question of allowing the importation of pedigree stock from Scotland to be resumed. They hope to see their way to allow such importations, subject to suitable conditions, in the course of the present week, provided there is no unfavourable change in the position of Scotland in regard to foot-and-mouth disease meantime.

41.

asked whether the Report of the Interdepartmental inquiry into the causes of the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease at Birkenhead will be circulated; whether it points to the fact that the disease did not originate in Ireland or from Irish cattle; and what steps are being taken consequent on the Report?

The Department is having the Report referred to printed, and it will be issued at an early date. The latter part of the question is best answered by the Report itself.

I wish to ask a question, of which I have given private notice to the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), namely: Whether, having regard to the fact that there has been no case of foot-and-mouth disease in the county of Limerick, and that the restrictions in the county have been removed, the Department will be good enough to enable the fair to be held at Rathkeale on Monday next, 6th April?

Housing Bill (Building Materials)

46.

asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the fact that builders and housing reformers complain that the supply of building material is controlled by a trust which raised prices last year by 20 per cent., which was equal to the price of the land on which houses are built, he will make provision in the Government's Housing Bill enabling public authorities to manufacture building materials and to supply them to private builders?

The Prime Minister has asked my right hon. Friend to reply to this question. He will give the matter consideration, but he has so far received no request from any public authority to be furnished with such powers.

Thorpe School, Surrey

51.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is satisfied, in compliance with the provisions contained in Section 7 (4) of the Education Act, 1902, that the religious teaching given at Thorpe Church of England school, Surrey, is imparted in accordance with the provisions of the trust deed of the school?

I have no information as to whether the religious teaching given in the school in question is imparted in accordance with the provisions of the Trust Deed. I may remind the hon. Member that under Section 7 (3) of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, it is no part of the duty of His Majesty's inspector to inquire into any instruction in religious subjects given in a public elementary school.

Road Board Appointments (Ireland)

52.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether any county surveyor in Ireland, at the request of the Road Board or the advisory committee or of any of the inspectors of the Board, inspected or reported on ay road improvement work in Ireland in any county other than that of which he is surveyor; and, if so, in how many cases?

The answer is in the negative, except in so far as county surveyors were members of the advisory engineering committee.

53.

asked when Messrs. J. P. J. Butler and R. W. Butler were appointed as inspectors by the Road Board; what the terms of their appointment and salaries are; and at what they were engaged prior to their appointment by the Road Board?

Mr. J. P. J. Butler was appointed engineering inspector to the Road Board on 12th December, 1911, at a salary of £6 a week and travelling expenses. Prior to his appointment by the Road Board he was engaged as an engineering assistant upon the staff of a consulting engineer. Mr. R. W. Butler was appointed engineering inspector of the Road Board on the 28th April, 1913, at an initial salary of £250 per annum and travelling expenses. Prior to his appointment he was the chief assistant to the engineer and surveyor of the county borough of Newport.

54.

asked the names of the persons comprising the advisory engineering committee appointed by the Road Board last year, showing the representation for England, Ireland, and Scotland; and for how long the committee was appointed?

The Road Board appointed in February, 1913, a temporary advisory engineering committee for the purpose of inspecting a considerable mileage of roads in Ireland. The committee, which was dissolved in February, 1914, consisted of Mr. P. C. Cowan, Chief Engineering Inspector, Local Government Board for Ireland; Mr. W. Cohen, County Surveyor of county Dublin; Mr. W. E. Duffin, County Surveyor of county Waterford; Mr. R. H. Dorman, County Surveyor of county Armagh. This temporary committee was distinct from the advisory engineering committee constituted by the Road Board in August, 1910, in accordance with the scheme printed in Appendix No 10 of the First Annual Report of the Road Board.

55.

asked on whose advice, recommendation, or report, are the grants and loans made by the Road Board in Ireland; whether all work in process or actually completed is inspected by an officer of the Road Board; and, if so, who these inspection officers are?

The details of each application for grants or loans are examined and reported upon by the engineering staff of the Road Board. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative, and as regards the third part, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave him on the 24th instant.

Old Age Pensions

56.

asked why there are more pension officers employed now than in the year the Old Age Pensions Act came into operation; how many were employed on a permanent basis in the first instance, and how many temporarily; and how many of each of these classes are now in this employment in England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, respectively?

The increase in the number of pension officers employed is due to the increase in the number of pensioners. The answer to the second part of the question is approximately—1,500 officers on a permanent basis and 100 employed temporarily. The figures asked for in the third part of this question are, approximately, as follows:—

On a permanent basis:

England and Wales, of whom it is estimated that 100 are employed in Wales1,400
Scotland200
Ireland300

On a temporary basis, none.

Cost Of Living (Foreign Countries)

57.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the percentage of the increased cost of living which has taken place since 1900 in the following countries: Italy, Germany, Austria, United States of America, Canada, and United Kingdom, respectively?

Certain information bearing on the subject will be found, together with the necessary cautions as to the comparability of the figures, on pages 60 to 62 of the "Cost of Living of the Working Classes." (Cd. 6955 of 1913.) Since the issue of that volume figures for Prussia and Bavaria have become available, with the result that the percentage increase in retail food prices for Germany should be raised from 30, as stated in the Report, to 37. Official figures for the United States for 1912 have also been published since the issue of the volume, showing that the increase in retail food prices between 1900 and 1912 was 50 per cent.

Tariff Law (Holland)

58.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if there has been any alteration in the tariff law of Holland since 1900; and, if not, can he state when the last material alteration was made in the Dutch tariff law?

Except as regards duties on a few articles, the tariff now in force is substantially that enacted in 1862, and amended in 1877, in which latter year numerous articles hitherto dutiable were made free of duty.

Food Adulteration

60.

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he proposes to introduce legislation this Session in reference to the adulteration of bread and other articles of food of frequent human consumption?

My right hon. Friend regrets that he sees little probability of being able to introduce a Bill this Session.

Public Works (Demand For Labour)

61.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he can make a statement as to the action taken by his Department in recent years to promote the adjustment of public works undertaken by local authorities, so as to regularise the demand for labour in recurring periods of good and bad trade?

Although the Local Government Board have in times of exceptional distress from want of employment issued circulars to local authorities to urge the putting in hand of public works, and have on various occasions emphasised the desirability of regularising employment as far as possible, they have not taken direct and formal action of the kind contemplated in the question. The practicability of adjusting public works to the varying conditions of the labour market will be examined by the Committee which, as my hon. Friend is aware, the Government are appointing.

Royal Navy

British And Foreign Fleets

63.

asked what number of battleships and battle cruisers and light cruisers will be available for service in the Mediterranean in 1916, consistently with maintaining in Home waters the Admiralty standard of strength compared with Germany, namely, sixteen to ten; and what will be the number of vessels of each of the classes named possessed by Italy and Austria, respectively, in the same year?

I would refer the hon. Member to my statement when introducing the Navy Estimates on the 17th instant, and to the Return standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for North St. Pancras.

Royal Irish Constabulary

67.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what is the total strength at the present time of the Royal Irish Constabulary Force; what is the proportion of the force stationed in Ulster; and will he consider the advisability of moving some of the men from Ulster to other parts of Ireland where cattle maiming and other outrages are going on unchecked?

The total strength of the Royal Irish Constabulary at the present time is 235 officers and 10,246 men. Of this number 58 officers and 3,213 men are stationed in Ulster. I see no reason to recommend any change in the present distribution of the force.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

68.

asked the Chief Secretary whether the Estates Commissioners have received a memorial from the inhabitants of Mountmellick and Rosenallis districts, Queen's County, who are, and have been, users of Mrs. Adair's bog for fuel, requesting them to purchase the bog under Section 18 of the Land Act, 1909; whether the Commissioners have also received a resolution passed by the district council of Mountmellick, expressing their willingness to become trustees under the same section of the Act; and, in view of the fact that the present owner, Major Stoney, Graigue, Mountmellick, has expressed his willingness to dispose of his interest in the property, can he say what steps the Estates Commissioners propose taking in the matter?

The Estates Commissioners have received the memorial and resolution referred to, and propose to make inquiries in the matter.

Suffragist Prisoners (Forcible Feeding)

30.

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is aware that two doctors, who examined Ethel Moorhead a few hours after her release on 25th February, reported that she was then suffering from double pneumonia caused from the injection of foreign substances into the lungs; if he will say if the burning of the church, referred to by him as justifying the course followed, occurred on the night of Miss Moorhead's release, when she was at the point of death; and if it is the practice in Scotland, in regulating the treatment of convicted persons, to differentiate in the case of women about whom the police express suspicions that they may have been implicated in other breaches of the law for which they have not been tried?

The only report of the nature mentioned which I have received is one by Dr. Grace Cadell, a copy of which was sent to me. I have already dealt with the allegation contained in that report in my answer to the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division on the 9th March, to which I would refer the hon. and learned Member. As regards the remainder of the question, in deciding whether to grant to a prisoner undergoing sentence a temporary discharge on licence under the Act of last Session, I have to take into consideration all the circumstances of the case, and circumstances such as those mentioned in the earlier portion of the answer already referred to are obviously relevant in this regard. There was no suggestion in my answer to the hon. Member for Blackfriars that Ethel Moorhead was concerned in the burning of Whitekirk Church.

No, Sir. No suggestion of that kind was made. It is perfectly clear from the purport of my answer that no suggestion of that kind was made.

House Of Commons (Easter Holidays)

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what arrangements are proposed for the holidays?

It is proposed that the House should be asked to adjourn on Wednesday, 8th April, and that it should reassemble on Tuesday, the 14th.

Government Of Ireland Bill

Japanese Rifles

4.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to a letter received recently by the Lord Mayor of Dublin, written by one S. Shimoda Osaka, offering to ship a supply of rifles direct from the arsenals of Japan, and stating that 200,000 rifles of the latest pattern have been shipped into India during the past year; and whether he has any information that consignments of rifles have been or are being made from Japan or elsewhere to India?

I have seen a newspaper report on which the first part of the question seems to be based. As regards the second part the Secretary of State attaches no importance to the statement. It is obviously absurd.

What are the regulations dealing with the importation of arms into India?

Major-General Sir C Macready

11.

asked if Major-General Sir C. Macready is still in Belfast, and if Brigadier-General Count Gleichen commands the troops there?

What orders were given to General Macready when he was sent to Belfast?

Military Understanding With France

12.

asked whether, in the event of troops being employed in Ulster over an extended period, the Government are in a position to carry out our military understanding with France?

My right hon. Friend wishes me to say that he cannot undertake to reply to a purely hypothetical question.

Movements Of Troops

14.

asked if preparations and mobilisation orders, marked private, enclosing routes and warrants, have been received by officers on the Reserve during the last fortnight; and if, on the receipt of a telegram containing a private word, the officers in question have been directed to proceed to their allotted stations?

Have not posters been sent to the police ready to be put up?

Brigadier-General, Gough

15.

asked whether in the history of the Army a case has ever occurred in which, when an officer has left his command for a short period, whether on leave or on duty, an officer from the half-pay list has been appointed to replace him in command; whether it is the invariable rule for the next senior officer in the command to assume that command; and whether there were a number of field officers available and qualified to perform this duty when Brigadier-General Gough was summoned from his command to headquarters on a recent occasion?

With the indulgence of the House, I would ask permission to read a short personal statement. I regret that my recollection betrayed me into a misstatement yesterday, which I desire at the earliest moment to set right. In replying to the right hon. and learned Member for the Walton Division, and speaking of the document which the Adjutant-General had drafted for General Gough, I said:—

"The document did not arrive in time to be read by the Cabinet."
This is not the case, and does not do justice to my colleagues. The document was read to the Cabinet, and was immediately dissented from by them. I was called out of the Cabinet Room on several occasions that morning, and I have no personal recollection of this particular discussion. The only impression left on my mind was that of the Prime Minister striking out the various paragraphs, and giving the paper to the Secretary of State as the Cabinet was breaking up. The true facts are as stated to the House on Wednesday last by the Prime Minister.

Commissioned Rank

16.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the feeling of unrest created throughout the country by recent occurrences in connection with the Army in Ireland, he will take the necessary steps to have the Regulations of 1st January extended with the view of securing to deserving and capable men of all classes equal opportunities of obtaining commissioned rank in His Majesty's land forces?

My right hon. Friend is not sure what particular proposal his hon. Friend has in mind. The matter shall be considered.

Is it believed by the Government that capable and experienced men in all classes would behave differently from the Army officers who have upheld the honour and discipline of the Army—

The hon. Gentleman must know that that is not a proper question to ask.

Instructions To Sir Arthur Paget

19.

asked the Secretary of State for War on what date instructions were given to the General Officer Commanding in Ireland that he was to give officers domiciled in Ulster the option of proceeding on leave in the event of the units to which they belonged being ordered there; whether these instructions were in writing; and, if so, why they were not included in the White Paper laid before the House?

The only instructions given to Sir Arthur Paget were those which my right hon. Friend has already stated were given to him by the Secretary of State for War on the 19th March.

Is it not a fact that, in another place, it was stated the other day that these particular instructions were given last December?

Surely that has reference to the first paper in the White Paper laid before the House, dated in December?

It does appear. It is the first paper in the White Paper. It is dated in December.

Is it not the case that in the White Paper there is no reference to the instructions to Sir Arthur Paget?

25.

asked the Secretary of State for War on what date Sir A. Paget had the interview with him at the War Office on the subject of the letter addressed to Sir A. Paget from the War Office on the 14th March; was anyone else present at the interview; did Sir A. Paget make any note of the verbal instructions then given to him by the Secretary of State for War; when was the Army Council first made aware of those instructions, and by whom; did those instructions give the option to officers domiciled in Ulster to disappear, and that they would be reinstated on conditions, and that officers who were not prepared to undertake active operations against Ulster for conscientious or other scruples were to send in their resignations and would be dismissed the Army; were General Gough and the other officers who exercised that option offered them by the Secretary of State for War guilty of any act of disobedience in so doing; and had any officer asked for that option before it was volunteered by him?

The reply to the first part of the question is, "On the 18th and 19th of March"; to the second, "Yes"; to the third, "Not to my knowledge"; to the fourth, "The Army Council were kept generally informed"; to the fifth, "Yes"; to the sixth, "No instructions were given in this form"; to the seventh, "No." I have no information as to the last part of the question.

Army Council Memorandum

20.

asked what were the questions of the General Officer Command- ing referred to in the third paragraph of the last Memorandum in the White Paper on the Irish command?

21.

asked the Secretary of State for War on what date the first Memorandum on the White Paper, referring to his interview, on the 16th December, with the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, was written?

24.

asked if, when intimation was conveyed to Army officers that, under certain circumstances; they may disappear, a similar permission was granted to the non-commissioned officers and men?

Naval And Military Forces

48.

asked if inquiries have been made of officers or men in the Navy as to their willingness to be used in co-operation with troops in Ireland for overcoming the opposition of Ulster to the rule of an Irish Parliament?

If it was correct to ask officers of the Army this question, was it not also correct to ask officers of the Navy?

Mr John Redmond And The Government

49.

asked whether a written undertaking has been given by His Majesty's Government to the hon. and learned Member for Waterford that the Government of Ireland Bill should be passed without appeal to the people, whether by Referendum or General Election?

Are we to understand that there is no undertaking signed by even one Member of the Government?

16Th Lancers (Dismissal Of Colonel)

May I ask the First Lord of the Admiralty a question, of which I gave him notice last night, namely: Whether he will state the terms of the telegram which announced to the War Office the resignation of the colonel of the 16th Lancers?

It was understood that the right hon. Gentleman would ask this question, and in the absence of the Prime Minister the following answer has been sent over to me: No telegrams are missing. The War Office, as their reply shows, assumed that what was stated as regards the officers of the 5th Lancers applied also to those officers referred to in a later telegram.

Then are we to understand that the War Office dismissed the colonel of the 16th Lancers before they were informed he had resigned?

What I understand from the answer which has just been given to me is that the War Office assumed from the first telegram of Sir Arthur Paget that the same conditions existed in the 16th Lancers as in the 5th Lancers, and they intended that reply to cover both.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that all that was said in that telegram was, "Fear 16th Lancers will act in same way," and on the strength of that did they actually dismiss the colonel of the 16th Lancers?

They received a subsequent telegram from Sir Arthur Paget, "Regret to report Brigadier and fifty-seven officers, 3rd Cavalry Brigade, prefer to accept dismissal if ordered North." That was, as I understand, the only information the War Office had before them at the time, and they sent a general telegram to Sir Arthur Paget which covered the whole circumstances of the case.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman not know that fifty-seven officers do not include the whole of the officers, and that they had no information whatever as to the resignation of the colonel, and yet they dismissed him without that information?

What the War Office actually said was:—

"Direct Gough and officers commanding 5th and 16th Lancers to report themselves to the Adjutant-General at the War Office without delay. They should leave by first possible boat. They should be relieved of their commands, and officers are being sent to relieve them at once. Resignations of all officers should be refused."
I understand that that telegram was sent on the assumption that the same conditions existed in both the 5th and the. 16th Lancers.

Is not the meaning of that that the War Office without any information that the colonel of the 16th Lancers had resigned, not only dismissed him but appointed his successor?

No. The War Office received a telegram stating that there was a serious state of affairs regarding the 5th Lancers, and stating also—

"I much fear same conditions in 16th Lancers."
It is only natural that they should send a telegram which covered both.

If there were no other telegrams, why did the First Lord of the Admiralty say last night that there were some telegrams, and that they were so immaterial that they had not been published?

I will point out further in reply that the War Office was not dismissing. The resignations were to be refused. Dismissal is a much more serious thing.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the telegram is a dismissal from his command, not from the Service, and does he say the War Office dismissed him from his command before they knew that he had resigned?

It is quite clear that the War Office assumed that the 16th Lancers and the 5th Lancers had followed the same course, and they sent a telegram to the General Officers commanding that they should be relieved of their command—it is now known that they were relieved temporarily of their command—and that resignations should be refused.

Would not it be really better if the Government would lay before the House the actual telegrams which they received from Sir Arthur Paget?

These are the telegrams. If there are further telegrams relating to this point which the right hon. Gentleman has raised with regard to the 5th and 16th Lancers, I will certainly have the matter inquired into, and see that they should be laid; but I understand that there are no further telegrams relating to this particular point. If there are, of course I have been misinformed in my answer, but I have no reason to suppose that there has been any misconception of the question which the right hon. Gentleman intended to ask, or that there has been any misconception in the answer with which I have been supplied.

What is the objection in the Government informing the House of Commons of the whole facts by laying all the telegrams received from Sir Arthur Paget?

I can only say in answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question that I will inform the Prime Minister of the question which the right hon. Gentleman has put, and which he has pressed, and I will make inquiry again as to whether there are any further telegrams upon this point.

Might it not be advisable for the Leader of the Opposition to put the Government in possession of the telegrams in his possession?

In reference to the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman why did not the War Office also assume that the 4th Hussars were concerned in this, seeing that the only telegrams published refer to the brigadier and the brigade, and that the 4th Hussars were part of the brigade? Why did they make the assumption with regard to the 5th and the 16th Lancers, and not with regard to the 4th Hussars?

I have already promised to make inquiries as to whether there are further telegrams on this point, and, if the Noble Lord wants more information on the point, I will include that in the inquiries.

Does the right hon. Gentleman approve of the principle of dismissal first and questions afterwards?

Will the right hon. Gentleman also make inquiries as to the telegrams which were sent from the post office in this House to General Gough between 5 o'clock and 10 o'clock on Tuesday last?

That is a matter on which I cannot get any information from the War Office.

Elementary Education (Defective And Epileptic Children) Bill

Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee C.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 173.]

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 173.]

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 154.]

Private Business

Sir Harry Samuel reported from the Committee on Group C of Private Bills; That Mr. France, one of the Members of the said Committee, was not present during the sitting of the Committee this day.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Chesterfield Corporation Bill

Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section A); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Sir Daniel Goddard reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee B at the conclusion of the Importation of Plumage (Prohibition) Bill: Mr. Harold Smith; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Sandys.

Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee; That they had added to Standing Committee A the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Superannuation (Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Queen Anne's Bounty) Bill): Mr. Barran, Mr. Burdett-Coutts, Mr. Haddock, Mr. James Hope, Sir Charles Nicholson, Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. O'Shaughnessy, Mr. Pointer, Mr. Parry, Sir James Fortescue Flannery, Sir John Tudor Walters, Sir Joseph Walton, Mr. Stuart-Wortley, Mr. Samuel Roberts, and Mr. Lees Smith.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Message From The Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill, without Amendment.

East Ham Corporation Bill, with Amendments.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the introduction of proportional representation in Municipal Elections; and for other purposes connected therewith." [Municipal Representation Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Stone Gas Light and Coke Company, Limited, to supply electricity and to confer further powers on and to change the name of the Company; and for other purposes." [Stone Gas and Electricity Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Bengal and North Western Railway Company, Limited, to redeem a portion of its existing capital; and for other purposes." [Bengal and North Western Railway Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the Didcot, Newbury, and Southampton Railway Company." [Didcot, Newbury, and Southampton Railway Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend The Colonial and Foreign Banks Guarantee Fund Incorporation Act, 1899; and for other purposes." [Colonial and Foreign Banks Guarantee Corporation Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for the transfer to the urban district council of Cleckheaton of so much of the gas undertaking of the Bradford Corporation as is situate within the urban district of Cleckheaton; to extend and define the limits of the council for the supply of gas and to confer further powers upon the council in relation to their gas undertaking; to authorise the council to provide and run motor omnibuses; and to make further and better provision with regard to the improvement, health, and local government of the district; and for other purposes." [Cleckheaton Urban District Council Bill [ Lords.]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the limits of supply of the South Bank and Normanby Gaslight and Coke Company, Limited; to repeal the powers of the Middlesbrough Corporation to supply gas within the existing and extended limits of supply of that Company; and for other purposes." [South Bank and Normanby Gaslight and Coke Company [ Lords.]

Stone Gas and Electricity Bill [ Lords], Bengal and North-Western Railway Bill [ Lords],

Didcot, Newbury, and Southampton Railway Bill [ Lords],

Colonial and Foreign Banks Guarantee Corporation Bill [ Lords],

Cleckheaton Urban District Council Bill [ Lords],

South Bank and Normanby Gaslight and Coke Company Bill [ Lords].

Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Notices Of Motion:

Taxation Of Agricultural Produce And Home Manufactured Goods

To call attention upon Wednesday, 15th April, to the heavy rates and taxes levied on agricultural produce and manufactured goods produced in this country and the injustice of allowing similar goods front abroad to escape taxation.—[ Mr. Rowland Hunt.]

Brixham And Dartmouth Trawl Fishermen

To call attention upon Wednesday, 15th April, to the unfair position of the Brixham and Dartmouth trawl fishermen, owing to the law prohibiting them putting down their trawls in Start Bay, and to move a Resolution.—[ Colonel Burn.]

Length Of Speeciees

To call attention upon Wednesday, 15th April, to the length of speeches in this House, and to move a Resolution.—[ Mr. Leach.]

New Writs

For the Borough of Belfast (East Belfast Division), in the room of Robert James M'Mordie, esquire, deceased.—[ Lord Edmund Talbot.]

For the County of Fife (Eastern Division), in the room of the Right Hon. Herbert Henry Asquith, First Lord of the Treasury, one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State.—[ Mr. Illingworth.]

Bills Presented:

Railways (Hours Of Labour) Bill

"To amend the Law relating to the Hours of Labour on Railways." Presented by Mr. HUDSON; supported by Mr. Wardle, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Goldstone, Mr. Frederick Hall (Normanton), Mr. Pointer, Mr. Adamson, Mr. Jowett, Mr. Parker, and Mr. Stephen Walsh; to be read a second time upon Friday, 1st May, and to be printed. [Bill 155.]

Coroners' Inquests (Fatal Accidents) Bill

"To amend the Law relating to Coroners' Inquests in the case of Fatal Accidents on Railways." Presented by Mr. HUDSON; supported by Mr. Wardle, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Pointer, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Hodge, Mr. Frederick Hall (Normanton), Mr. Goldstone, Mr. Chiozza, Money, Mr. Jowett, and Mr. Gill; to be read a second time upon Friday, 1st May, and to be printed. [Bill 156.]

Orders Of The Day

Government Of Ireland Bill

Amendment Proposed

Order read for resuming adjourned Debate on Question proposed [ 9th March], "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Question again proposed. Debate resumed.

I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add the words "upon this day six months."

In rising to move the Amendment which stands in my name, I do not think that the most fervent supporters of the Government will differ from me in the first thing I have to say, which is that this House is asked to approach the consideration of this first and most important of the Government measures—what is admitted to be by its friends, and claimed to be by its opponents, a great revolution in the Constitution of the country: this measure which we are asked to read a second time to-day—under exceptional circumstances as affecting the measure itself, and in a state of affairs, politically, for which I do not believe there is any parallel to be found in our history. The Prime Minister is not only the Leader of this House, he is not only the dominant figure on that bench and on that side of the House, and in the House, but he has been through these last two years the Minister in charge of this Home Rule measure. He has made himself responsible for its conduct from the beginning to the end, and he and he alone has been the mouthpiece of the Government with regard to proposed changes. He made the other day, when the Second Reading was first moved, an announcement of first importance to the House and the country, going at greater length and with greater detail in regard to the proposed alterations. Yet to-day, when we are asked for the last time to debate this question, to discuss not only this Bill but the proposed alterations, we are called upon to do it in the absence of the one Minister whose presence is essential. If additional proof were required of this it would be found in the questions which immediately preceded the Orders of the Day. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition gave notice yesterday of the question he would ask to-day. He asked that question. What has the right hon. Baronet the Foreign Secretary to say in reply? My right hon. Friend asked more than one question—he asked two or three consequential ones, and in almost every reply given by the Minister in charge of the House came the sentence, "I will speak to the Prime Minister and ask him about it." If that is the difficulty in which Ministers find themselves in regard to answering plain questions, of which full notice has been given, what is likely to be the result in reference to questions that we shall put to them in the course of this Debate? It has been with the Leader of the Opposition, whose advice we seek, a question of grave consideration whether we ought in these circumstances to consent to take part in this Debate?

Let me remind the House of all that Ministers said in the old days when they were passing the Parliament Act through Parliament. We urged that the subsequent Debates in the second and third years would be to a large extent sham Debates. We urged that the attention of this House could only be given in a partial degree. We urged that the Government would feel themselves compelled to force the measure through with as little Debate and discussion as might be possible. What was the answer which we received in emphatic terms from the Prime Minister himself? It was—I remember his making it in answer to a speech which I addressed to the House on this very branch of the question—that if, as time goes on, during this period of two years, to which he said he attached so great importance, there was evidence of a change of opinion, of needs for alterations, the whole value of the Parliament Act was that it will give the Government of the country the chance of giving effect to those needs, and they would be in a position to do it. Yet on this, the greatest Bill of all, the most important of all, for which the Prime Minister is more responsible than any Member of the Government, when the last occasion arises when effect can be given to these changes, and when the last moment arrives at which Parliament can recognise the undoubted feeling of the House and the country, the one man, who alone can get up in his place and defend the measure or answer questions, is absent from our Debates, and he is not even a Member of the House. Do not let me be misunderstood. There have been occasions in my own experience in the country and in this House when great national difficulties have forced the Ministry of the day to make changes which, subsequently, made it impossible for leading Ministers to be in their places. It may be that such a condition of things has arisen now. But I deny altogether that that condition of things is one which can in any way compel the sympathy or forbearance of His Majesty's Opposition. That condition of things has been brought about solely by the action of the Government, and is the result of their policy. But I will go further, and I will say that if our hopes are realised we should be the last to complain of the absence of the Prime Minister upon any other occasion than this. We hope, even against hope, that his acceptance of this great office of Secretary of State for War, in addition to the already heavy burden he bears as Prime Minister, means that he has taken upon himself the charge of the Army in order that he may defend the Army, not only with the full power of his own great abilities but of his great position, against the attacks upon its honour which have been made not only by his followers, but by some of his principal colleagues.

If it be the case that his acceptance as the representative in this House and this country of the Army means that he is determined to stop this attack upon the Army of this country then, great though the price be that we will have to pay, I for one would not complain. But the circumstances of the last few days have been so extraordinary, with the everlasting changes and events and alterations on the part of Ministers, the hopeless inconsistency between statements made in this House and statements made in the other House, the fact that one Minister resigns, while to the ordinary observer and reader of what is going on others who seem to be no less responsible remain, the fact that distinguished brilliant officers feel themselves compelled to resign their offices, which they have held with great advantage to the country, while some of those, if the statements which have been made in another place, apart from the statements here, are correct, who are at least equally responsible and have not resigned, all this fills us with amazement, and makes us wonder whether it is worth while to hope for any improvement in this position that is full to-day of so much difficulty and, indeed, of so much darkness. As I have said, it was a matter for grave consideration whether, on the consideration of this Bill, so far as we are concerned, we ought not to have shaken the dust off our feet and declined to share any responsibility under the circumstances of the case. It would not be difficult to show the extraordinary nature of the position in which we find ourselves in discussing the Amendment which is now before the House. That Amendment is to move the rejection of the Second Reading of this Bill and it takes place in the absence of the most important Minister of all. I make no reflection on the Foreign Secretary, whose distinction we all recognise. I make no reflection upon any of his colleagues, but I think that I shall here carry all quarters of the House with me when I say that one's experience in this House teaches one many lessons, but, amongst others, there is none has impressed itself so much on me as this, that it is of the utmost importance that the head of the Government in this House, the Minister specially responsible for the measure under consideration, should be present in the House to hear the Debates.

Let anybody who is a Member of the House compare his own experience with the Debate he has listened to and the Debate an account of which he has only read. I venture to say it is of vital importance that if the Prime Minister and his colleagues are in earnest in making the proposal for compromise which they made the other day, it is absolutely vital that he should have been here; and when I recognise, as I do, that it would have been possible by, after all, a very small alteration in the arrangements to have had his presence here, I am compelled, whether I like it or not, to ask myself whether the Government's proposals for compromise were really intended in order to secure the peace, to avoid catastrophe, or whether they were only intended as a mere political manœuvre to put themselves and their-party in a better position, and, if possible, to manœuvre our party, and especially my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson), in a wrong position. The circumstances of the day point in that direction and lead the most charitable-minded men to that conclusion, but the Government counted their chickens before they were hatched.

Their sinister object was defeated by the action of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dublin University. They made it perfectly clear what the attitude of the Opposition and what the attitude of the people of Ulster is in regard to your compromise, your proposed compromise, and I think it would have been a better tribute to the sincerity and reality of the action of the Government if they had commenced their proceedings to-day by a clear and definite statement of how the matter stands now and what view they take of the answers given to their offers. We know nothing or the attitude of the Government in regard to the suggestion of my right hon. Friend, and, so far as we are informed, we stand exactly where we stood when the Prime Minister made his proposal the other day. I believe everybody, wherever they sit and certainly we on this side of the House, feel the gravity of a crisis so terrible as the one with which we are confronted, where now there has ceased to be any doubt as to the possibility of civil war, where we have the admission of the Prime Minister himself this is now a possible and real factor in the case, where we know that the Prime Minister has gone so far as to make proposals for the amendment of a Bill which he says will, in his judgment, make it a worse Bill, in order that he may be able, if possible, to avert this awful disaster. We feel this, at least, as much as Members do opposite. The proof of that is to be found in the action of my right hon. Friends near me, and hon. Gentlemen opposite must not blame us if we look, especially in the circumstances I have described, with suspicion and doubt upon their proposal, and if to-day we call the absence of the Prime Minister as evidence of the fact that they were manœuvring, and not seeking really to come to a satisfactory settlement. After all, the proposal which the Prime Minister made, so far as we are able to understand it now, is one which nobody really thinks, having examined the position in Ulster, and in Ireland, and having decided the facts for themselves, would expect them to accept. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, more outside of this House than in it, have declared that we on the Opposition side are not sincere. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Two or three hon. Gentlemen opposite cheer that, but I confess it makes me wonder that anybody of intelligence can cheer a statement of that kind. I am very glad to find that the cheer was so weak; but that is the charge made more outside this House than in it.

4.0 P.M.

I do not complain of their saying it. That is the statement made much more outside this House than in it, and so far as I know, and I believe I am familiar with the full views of my hon. Friends, both in this House and of those whom they represent, there is not a shadow of foundation for that charge. As for sincerity, I think it is ludicrous to suggest that we are not sincere in our opposition to Home Rule in any form. It is the great fact which brought together the Unionist party of to-day. It is the great fact which led to immense sacrifices being made by those distinguished statesmen and their followers who were once Members of the Liberal party and who came into alliance with us. It is the great fact which we have kept in the forefront of our party programme ever since we have been a political party, and so far as I know, nothing can be quoted from any one of our leaders to show that there is the smallest weakening on this question of establishing practically an independent Parliament in Dublin. Therefore the charge of insincerity cannot, I submit, be maintained. However, I do not complain of that, but I think it is a wholly unworthy charge for any man who claims to be sincere himself to make against his political opponents. I come now to the second charge, that we want to use Home Rule as a means of attacking and destroying something else. Hon. Gentlemen opposite say, "What the Opposition really want is, not to destroy Home Rule, but to break down the Parliament Act." Do right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite really believe that? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] They do. I do not object. On the contrary, I think that that is quite a reasonable view to take. I think it is rather a stupid one, if I may say so, but none the less, it may be so. There is a good deal to be said for it.

I wholly disagree with the hon. Gentleman. My right hon. and learned Friend never said anything of the kind. But that is neither here nor there. It is extraordinary how hon. Gentlemen opposite, when challenged, are unwilling to take up the challenge. They invariably turn to us and say, "You said it." That is their whole justification for this Home Rule Bill. They point to the fact that my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Mr. Balfour) and Lord Lansdowne talked about Home Rule in two or three of their speeches, and that is their whole justification for the Bill. When they are searching for a warrant for their policy, they go to the scrap-heap of speeches made on this side of the House. It is so now. This charge, of which I did not knew they were ashamed, they justify by referring to speeches of my right hon. and learned Friend. I entirely deny the suggestion; but, be that as it may, I am dealing now with their charge. There is a great deal to be said for their desire to reap for themselves the advantages of the Parliament Act. They carried it openly, because they said that their party always had to face obstacles in another place, and that they ought to be given a free chance to pass their legislation. They now say that, owing to the position in which they find themselves, they cannot possibly consult the people on this Bill at this moment without surrendering all their advantages under the Parliament Act. That is perfectly true; but the offer which the Government have made of excluding Ulster under circumstances which in themselves are wholly ridiculous, is no attempt to meet that difficulty. If their desire is really to consult the people, if their conviction is that the people are heartily with them, why, instead of making these fantastic proposals with regard to Ulster, do they not come to us and the country and say, "Our difficulty is the Parliament Act. Will you agree to such an amendment of the Parliament Act as will enable us to reap its advantages, even though we consult here and now the people of the country?" I say that then the Government would be making a proposal well worthy of consideration. I have no right or title to speak for my party or for this Bench, but, speaking for myself, and believing, as I do, not only that our position in regard to Home Rule is sincere, but that it is our most deep-seated and profound conviction that Home Rule will be bad for Ireland and worse for the United Kingdom; realising, as I do, that the system of party government is one which, though it has many disadvantages, holds the field in the absence of any better proposal, but involves many difficulties; and realising, as I do, that this argument of the party opposite, which is the result of the party system, has a great deal to be said for it; I say that, if that is your objection, if your claim is that you are entitled to enjoy the fruits of the victory which you won at the election, and which enabled you to carry the Parliament Act, we are sincere, and we will do nothing to deprive you of those advantages. But we say that your duty is, without a moment's delay, to consult the people of the country and get their approval of the policy, with its possibly awful consequences, upon which you are embarked, and to which you are committed. We say that if, under the party system, your only difficulty is that under the Parliament Act you are faced with certain difficulties, make proposals for removing those difficulties, and ask us whether we will consent to them if you, on your side, undertake to go to the people, who you say are behind you in this matter.

My Motion is that this Bill be read a second time this day six months. I have referred to the greater and graver difficulties of the situation. I come now to one which, if the position were not so serious, would be almost comic. What is this Bill that we are asked to read a second time? I understand that the Foreign Secretary is to follow me. Nobody in this House is better able to make his meaning clearly understood. Is he prepared to tell us what this Bill is? Is it the printed Bill that we are able to get in the Bill Office? Is it the Bill as altered by the suggestions of the Prime Minister? Further, in the Prime Minister's speech, which we hoped would be followed on this occasion by much fuller information, there was a clear indication that the Amendments in regard to the exclusion of Ulster were by no means the only amendments that he had in his mind. He was asked various questions, as hon. Members will find by reference to the OFFICIAL REPORT, as to the judiciary and other matters, and his answers indicated that those questions were still under consideration. How do they stand to-day? If the Bill is the one we have in print, what an extraordinary position we are in. The Government are asking us to read a second time a Bill which they by their own action, have already admitted must, if it remains in its present form, inevitably lead to civil disturbance. If the Bill is the one as altered by the suggestions of the Prime Minister, how are those alterations to be effected? The Government boast of their Parliament Act as the great charter of Liberal liberty. But the Parliament Act makes for them the very difficulties which, amongst others, now stand in their way. They cannot amend this Bill. They admit its difficulties; they admit its dangers. No longer can any man on that side of the House charge us with bluffing when we talk about the terrible consequences that will follow if you proceed with your policy. All this is admitted through the mouth of the Prime Minister himself. Yet, conscious though they are of the situation, prepared as they are to alter the Bill on the lines indicated by the Prime Minister, under the hide-bound methods of the Parliament Act, they are unable to do anything to give effect to their own wishes.

Surely at this stage of the Bill we ought to know clearly, not only what is in the mind of the Government, which Bill it is we are discussing, and what is to be its final form when placed on the Statute Book, but also what is the method by which those changes are to be made. On a previous occasion my right hon. Friend the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson) made it perfectly clear that, in our view, there is an immense difference between amending this particular Bill in another place at the suggestion of the Government, and bringing in another Bill to carry out the suggested alterations. The first course involves the acceptance of this Bill in its amended form by those who represent the Unionist party in another place. That is a policy to which I do not believe any Member of the Unionist party will, under any possible conditions, submit. That Bill must be, and will be, opposed by us. If you have made up your mind to improve it, as we think you would by certain alterations, your only policy under the Parliament Act is to do that by a separate Bill carried at the same time. As to that we know nothing. No statement has been made. I hope the Foreign Secretary is in a position to make here and now an explicit declaration upon this and other questions. This is not a matter which has been suddenly thrust upon the Government. It has been before them for a considerable time. I hope we shall, here and now, have definite information from the Government so that my hon. Friends who take part in this Debate may at least know more than I do as to the answer to the questions which I have asked.

I said that the Prime Minister indicated that there were changes of an even greater character, in one sense, than the exclusion of Ulster—greater, because they carry the change in the Bill further. We have argued all through these Debates that your Bill as it stands creates not a federal or subordinate Parliament, but one that will be practically a sovereign and independent Parliament. We are quite aware that you have contested that view. But when you are contesting it you cannot deny that you will not find in any federal Parliament in the world the powers which, under this Bill, you propose to give to what you call a subordinate Parliament. You are surrendering to your subordinate Parliament, in connection with the judiciary, the Post Office, and the Customs, powers which, in every other case, are reserved to the central Parliament, and have always been regarded as of vital importance in the establishment of a system of central and subordinate Parliaments. Therefore, in your decision as to this change is involved the answer to this greater question, whether you are in reality at the last moment going to start upon a policy of federalism, or whether you are going to adhere to the system which will be established if your Bill passes, namely, the creation of a practically separate Parliament. When you get through all this haze and difficulty, you come to the Bill itself. In our previous discussions my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, I myself in an humbler way, and others, have repeatedly challenged the Government. I will not stop to discuss all the fantastic proposals in the Bill for the ordinary administration of Ireland, but I will say a word upon one branch only of the subject, and that is finance. More than a year has elapsed since we challenged the Government to produce their authorities for the financial proposals of the Bill. We all remember the effect when the present President of the Local Government Board—who was then Postmaster-General—swallowed our challenge, and apparently was only too anxious to answer it. He shortly afterwards made a most long and interesting speech, but he forgot to quote the authorities who approved of the Irish financial proposals. Every other Minister on that Bench spoke in turn—some of them had spoken two or three times. Certainly all of us I am afraid on both Benches are a little bit inclined to speak too long, and are possibly inclined to agree with the view suggested by the hon. Member in the Motion of which he gave notice at the beginning of business as to the length of speeches. Certainly in regard to the speeches; to which I have made reference, of Ministers opposite nobody could have said that in their desire to be clear and explicit that they unduly shortened their observations.

Although they took a full share of the time of the House and discussed at large the various proposals of this Bill, there was not one, I think, from the beginning to the end of our Debate who has been able to justify the extraordinary financial proposals of the Bill. What is more remarkable still; how does this question stand in Ireland itself? I make no apology for dwelling upon that aspect of the case—for this reason: the only justification really for the policy of the Government is that Ireland cannot be rendered peaceful without the policy of Home Rule. The Prime Minister towards the end of his arguments in one speech said the choice was between the Bill which would cause trouble in Ulster, or no Bill which would cause trouble in the South and West. "Our object," hon. Gentlemen opposite say—and they get eloquent and sentimental over it—"our object is to take peace to Ireland, to make Ireland prosperous—as she has never been—to encourage her industries, to develop her resources, and to build her up into a great and growing nation." That is your object! Nobody will deny, for it is as true to-day as ever it was, that money is a great, if not the greatest, factor in the success of a Government scheme of this sort. It is the finance of this Bill, therefore, that compels and receives more consideration in Ireland than any other branch of the subject at present. How does it stand? I admit, so far as this House is concerned, that the Nationalist party, the hon. Gentleman who follow the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond), are very silent on the question. But other Nationalists outside this House, just as sound in their nationalism as they are, are not so silent. We have read the views of Lord Dun-raven. We have read the views of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. O'Brien). Nobody questions the Nationalist proclivities of the latter. We know what these have said about this Bill. We know that the Prime Minister and his Friends declare this Bill to be three things—to be a good Bill, to be a Bill which will settle the Irish difficulty—that is one of the most frequently made claims of hon. Gentlemen opposite—and we are told that its finance is generous and satisfactory, and that Ireland ought to be able to succeed under it. I have quoted Lord Dunraven and the hon. Member for Cork, not textually, but generally; nobody, I think, can question the statement I have quoted. What says one of the Nationalists whose Nationalism is certainly sound, and who is a great authority upon this question? Speaking on 4th April, 1913, at a lecture on the finance of the Bill by Professor Bastable—the one authority whom the Prime Minister has ever been able to put forward—Professor Kettle said:—
"The Bill was a transition Bill. If it were the final turn in the devolution of Irish affairs from Westminster to Dublin, it would be a disastrous Bill. It was not the end but the beginning. It was the seed of freedom lodged in Irish soil. Let them deliberately face and accept the sacrifices, and speed on, so far as they might, the transition period and so reach the time when under a scheme of full fiscal autonomy they would be responsible for the raising and for the spending of the public finances of Ireland."
What are the three main facts that emerge from this declaration of Professor Kettle? They are undoubtedly that, as the Bill stands, it is disastrous for Ireland—that as the Bill stands it is purely a transitionary measure. It has only to last for a short time and to be regarded as a step towards the acquisition of full national rights. Further, it makes it perfectly clear that this Bill can only cease to be disastrous to Ireland when Ireland acquires full fiscal autonomy. You talk about federalism! You say that this Bill is to be part of a future federal system, and that the only reason it comes alone is because the claims of Ireland are the oldest, the most insistent, and the most pathetic. Hon. Members opposite say that they are laying the foundation of a federal system. Yet out of the mouths of their own supporters—those who are willing to express their views in public with independence—come the most emphatic condemnation of your scheme as a part of the federal system that ever was uttered by anybody criticising constitutional proposals.

This is your Bill which is going to bring peace to Ireland. What has it done already? You have not gone far along your road. It has unsettled the people in Ireland. Does anybody deny that? Do hon. Members opposite contend that the unsettlement in Ireland is confined only to Ulster? Do they believe that they have not profoundly disturbed the people in the other three provinces—that, so far, this Bill has pleased none and has annoyed many; has settled nothing, but has unsettled a great deal? This Bill, the finances of which I have described, and the provisions of which I have referred to, were to spell your message of peace to Ireland. But this Bill has been condemned by your own supporters! You are asking us to read it a second time and we are wholly in darkness and ignorance as to what are its real provisions and what you have really got in your minds. I do not believe that in any country in the world where constitutional changes of so far-reaching importance has been made has there ever been such a spectacle as we contemplate to-day, or has there ever been such a spectacle as this country presents to the whole world as at the present moment. I am not going to discuss now, as we have already debated it, and no doubt we shall again, the new peril which the policy of hon. Members opposite has brought upon this country. You chose to say that we were bluffing. You would not listen to anything that we told you. You talked about going on full steam ahead; of meeting force by force. Where is that language now? Who talks now of meeting force by force? [An HON. MEMBER: "The Foreign Secretary."] It is true that the Foreign Secretary in his speech the other day made what appeared to be a very portentous announcement. I do not want to place upon his language what it will not bear. The right hon. Gentleman is well able to explain it for himself, but I say that, with the exception of the concluding sentences in his speech, there is not anybody on that side of the House who has not admitted that the possible has been arrived at, and that you will never be able to use the full forces of the Crown to enforce this Bill upon Ireland.

The hon. Member is one of whom I will say this—and I have said it before—that he has always been perfectly consistent and perfectly courageous in the advancement of his own views. I am bound to say I have always known him in this House and on the platform as a most eloquent exponent of the policy of peace, and a most determined opponent of the policy of force and of the policy of coercion. Changed, indeed, must be the conditions, and curious, indeed, must be the alterations in the minds of those who have made themselves known by their firm opposition to, and hatred of, anything in the nature of coercion, that they are now prepared to say that the policy which they opposed when it was applied to criminals guilty of murder and assassination, and every kind of crime—a policy which they opposed when it was adopted by this country in defence of our national interests and the flag—that that policy is going to find in them for the first time in their lives supporters and adherents when it is to be directed against those who, if they ever fight at all, will fight alone because they claim their right to enjoy the same privileges that hon. Members opposite enjoy, to continue in the same citizenship which hon. Members opposite enjoy. It is, indeed, an extraordinary change. Notwithstanding, however, the views of hon. Gentlemen, and notwithstanding the language of the Foreign Secretary, and what is in the White Paper, it is an extraordinary controversy which is raging around the methods by which you nearly smashed the British Army. All this, I say, shows to the ordinary observer—who is not an enthusiastic party man bound upon cheering his own Government, and seeing that their policies are carried into effect—that these events of the last ten days have made it clear to every intelligent observer of our affairs—who is not absolutely overridden by his party interests and loyalty—that any attempt of yours to force this Bill upon a loyal and peaceful population is foredoomed to failure before you really try to put it into practical effect. That is a view which is, I believe, held universally. I believe that many hon. Gentlemen opposite will themselves admit that. I have not exaggerated or overstated the case in the description I have given. That being so, I come to the last question which I have to ask the Government. I have asked them, What is this Bill? I have asked them their view with regard to federal pro- posals. I have asked them what is their defence or criticism now at the last moment of matters brought again to their notice, and their own proposals.

I now come to the question which we have asked the Government throughout all these Debates, and to which we have never had an answer. From the time of the Second Reading, when this Bill was first brought in, to the last occasion when we debated it, we told hon. Members that they would never be able to bend the necks of this proud people to the yoke under which it was sought to bring them. We warned you of these difficulties. What was your answer? That we were bluffing! That the people of Ulster had wooden guns! That it was all nonsense! All a storm in a teacup, and that it would be discovered that there was no reality in it! There is not one of you so callous as to dare to say that to-day. You know that all we said was true—you have at all events now some appreciation of the magnitude of the task you have undertaken. You are beginning to have some idea of the terrible consequences that may follow from your policy. This is the last question that I ask of the Government—what are you going to do? What are you asking Parliament and the country to do? Are you going to carry this Bill as it stands, with a full knowledge of the consequences which will follow, and if so, and if you say so, when you have done all that, what is going to be your record? You tell us that if there is going to be opposition to your proposals, you will use the full forces of the Crown to carry them out. That is your message of peace. That is the way in which you propose to create a new Ireland. Ireland, God knows, has suffered enough from party politics. I have taken part in many Irish Debates, official and non-official. I have spoken on many platforms upon the Irish question, and with great happiness. I spent a great part of my life in my younger days in Ireland; and indifferent and ignorant indeed of Irish history would be the man who attempted to deny that Ireland has suffered grievously, and has had to bear many a wrong, too often created by insufficient justice and fair-play.

I believe everyone wishes to-day, whatever their views on this particular question, to see Ireland go along that happier and better path she had been treading now for twenty years, developing the resources of her national position and taking full advantages of those natural privileges which are her possession. That, I believe, is the general desire. How do you propose to give effect to it? Is this the last trace of your statesmanship? Is this your last great act before you appeal to the country for its approval or disapproval of your action. You are determined that this Bill must be passed for reasons which I will not go into, because they are known to everybody. I do not care for the reasons—I ask this Government here to-day, when they will have their last opportunity in these Debates, to tell us what they are going to do, not in the mere passage of this measure through the House of Commons, not in the mere use of the forces of the Crown to put down disorder if it arises, but I ask them what is their plan for the future of the country, which they will have made ten times more miserable, and in which they will have created ten times more trouble in order to carry their measure of "peace" by the bayonet and by the bullet. Does the Foreign Secretary doubt this for one single instant? Is he anxious to raise the issue raised in fateful debates in other parts of the world in the last few months that a country is better, or likely to be happier or more prosperous, because its soil will be drenched with the blood of its own best citizens? Does he realise that if this Bill was not open to all the imperfections such as I have described, that if the Pin was not a bad Bill, which I am here to say it is, and in proof of which I quoted, not Unionists, but Nationalists, if it was ten times better, and that you were prepared to do much more than you are to remove the objections of your friends, the Bill is still hateful to the minority in Ireland—determined, resolute, and God-fearing people—who say to-day, as all along, that they will not have it, and I say you are bound, in my humble opinion and in honour to this House and the country, to tell us here, not only how you propose to deal with the Bill here and under your own Parliament Act in another place, and not only what the Bill really is, but how you propose to put it in its final form.

If you repeat what you have said already, that if the people of Ulster will not accept it, you will use force to compel them; you will have created in Ireland a new and terrible position; you will have created a position that will result in years of misery and suffering and ruin. You cannot deny that it is true, and that the facts are as I have stated, and that my forecast of the future is well founded. The least you can do is to tell us, in answer to these questions, why it is you persist in this extraordinary policy, and what is the plan you have got for dealing with that situation which must follow, if you try to compel the people of Ulster to accept this. Bill, which will mean misery for them suffering for them, and which will mean I believe, for the rest of the United Kingdom, interruption in our progress and advancement, such as the world has never experienced for hundreds of years.

These questions have got to be answered; the Government may evade then as they please by equivocal answers, as in recent days, but a time will come and come soon, when they will have to answer them, either within this House or before the more critical and more insistent jury, and my firm belief is, and it is the last word that I have to say, that if you are blind to the facts, deaf to the warning and refuse to recognise the situation which this House and this country finds itself in if you persist in your policy of Home Rule you will be held by the people of this country, and by the historian of the future, to have been guilty of the greatest act of folly ever committed by any Government, and I believe further, that if, as a result of the Government's policy, the forces of the Crown have to be used to coerce Ulster, the historian will say, as we say, that you have been guilty of the greatest crime that men in history ever committed.

I will come later on in what I have to say to the House to the arguments with which the right hon. Gentleman opposite concluded. I will take, first of all, the observations with which he began his speech. He expressed concern at the inconvenience caused by the absence of the Prime Minister. Of course, in that regret we all join, and I personally at least, as much as anyone, but when the right hon. Gentleman went on to give an illustration he selected an illustration drawn from the inconvenience of the Prime Minister's absence not in his capacity as Prime Minister, but in his capacity of Secretary of State for War. That arose out of a question put by the right hon. Gentleman opposite to-day. I have no reason to believe that the answer I gave was not accurate or complete. The Prime Minister had only just gone to the War Office. We had a Cabinet meeting the whole of the morning. The right hon. Gentleman's question was put at very short notice, and I thought it desirable under these exceptional circumstances, as he would not accept my answer as conclusive, to say that I was perfectly prepared to make further inquiries to make sure that there was no further information. I still believe the answer was perfectly adequate, but because of these exceptional circumstances, I promised to make further inquiry, and I think it is rather a far cry to bring that in as an illustration of the inconvenience in these Debates of the absence of the Prime Minister.

In the first place, the Prime Minister has spoken in this Debate already—I think he has spoken a second time, in what was practically a Debate on the Motion moved by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, which was practically a Debate on the same subject. Practically he has made two speeches relevant to this Debate, and one actually in this Debate, and I do not know that to what he has said already very much new could be added to-day. I, too, am afraid that I have not much new to say, and I therefore mean to keep close to the subject introduced by the right hon. Gentleman, and not to introduce, except in so far as he touched upon them once or twice, any of the matters which the House has been engaged in discussing for many days past. I would like to approach the right hon. Gentleman's question, "What is the Bill the House is discussing?" He asked, "Is it the Bill in the Bill Office?" Well, Sir, it is the Bill in the Bill Office. Failing taking anything less, failing any possible agreement, it must remain the Bill in the Bill Office, and we must proceed with it as such, but I regard the time we have still as time that may be used in investigating whether there is not yet a chance that some measure of agreement may be reached which will avoid those terrible necessities—I do not use less emphatic language than the right hon. Gentleman used in expressing my regret at necessities, if they come to be necessities, to try and find a settlement in Ireland by force rather than by consent.

Rather than by consent. The right hon. Gentleman interrupted as if I expressed a preference for settlement by force.

I am sorry; I only thought the two phrases went very badly together—settlement by force.

I will deal with the question of force after. I want to take up this Debate where it was left on a previous day by the rather remarkable speech made by the hon. Member for Herts, Watford (Mr. Arnold Ward), from the opposite side of the House, appealing for settlement by consent. I am afraid one of the great obstacles to a settlement by consent is the way which proposals made from our side have been received. If you are to make any progress, even if our proposals appear to be unacceptable, they must, at any rate, have the credit of being made with good intentions, and not every proposal that is unacceptable is made in bad faith. I would like—not for the purpose of pressing upon the right hon. Gentleman opposite a proposal when they are not prepared to receive it, but merely proposals which have been made undoubtedly in good faith—to take one or two alternatives to the Prime Minister's suggestion the other day. There is Sir Horace Plunkett's suggestion, which is not acceptable to the other side, but made in good faith. Then there is the proposal of federalists—people like Lord Hyde not party politicians. Their proposal, I understand, is that Ireland must be made a unity. They are opposed to a settlement by exclusion of any part of Ireland, but they would like the settlement to be by an amendment of the Home Rule Bill, so as to take out of it the particular things which they think are obstacles to a future federal settlement, while leaving Ireland a unity under one part of the Bill. Those are proposals made in good faith. We have had, further, the proposal which has been dismissed—

It has not been made by the Government, but I am taking the different proposals which have been made in the interests of a settlement. Those are proposals coming from a quarter obviously made in entire good faith without any partisan motive, but they have not found acceptance, and some of the proposals we have made have not found acceptance. They have, however, been made with a real desire to find a solution. The proposal of Home Rule within Home Rule was made in that way with a real desire to meet the apprehensions of Ulster as to what might happen in practice under Home Rule. There is the statutory guarantee, which in practice would give a Grand Committee of Ulster Members, or anything of that kind. There are various ways by which it might be arranged, such as power for education, for control of the police, power over the appointments in Ulster, and over all those things that affect the lives, the liberties of the people, and the things that really matter in the daily life of the people-in fact, a practical, effective, working guarantee. That has not been accepted, but it was made in the belief that it was really starting from the point of view that Ulster's apprehensions were real, that they had real fears of what would happen under this Bill, a real dislike to have their own intimate concerns left in the hands of anybody but themselves, and a very natural inference from that is that if arrangements were made by which those things would remain in their hands it would go a considerable way to meet the apprehensions in practice. All those various suggestions have found no acceptance, but I would still like to say that upon none of them is the door absolutely shut by the Government. I think the Prime Minister has used some phrase of that kind more than once. He has said:—

"We shut the door upon no suggestions, and until the last moment I will not reject any one of these suggestions as being hopelessly useless."
The last suggestions were made by the Government, not because we thought it preferable, indeed, I think some of the others are preferable to the suggestions which have been made by the Government, but they were made because we had tried some of the others, and we have been told that they would not be acceptable. At the time when the Prime Minister made his last proposal about the optional exclusion of Ulster for six years we were anxious to come to right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite with some proposal which at any rate would have shown a new desire on our part to meet them on the lines which alone they had told us would be acceptable. It was new from us. Now I must say we are exceedingly disappointed at the way that proposal was received. We had been told before that, with regard to our whole Bill as it stood, if we fought one election on that Bill the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition would admit that if that election went in favour of our Bill he would give no support to resistance by force. Six years means two elections at least.

Supposing it is four years or six years before a Parliament is elected, how will the election be upon Ulster?

As you come to the end of the six years, or period, or any time within the six years, it will either be apparent that Ulster, having had experience, as we shall all have had, of the working of the Dublin Parliament, is prepared to come in on terms, or it will appear that the resistance of Ulster is as decided and as strong as it is at the present moment. [An HON. MEMBER: "Will they keep their forces?"] It is not a question of keeping their forces, but a question of the expression of opinion. The feeling is known perfectly well without the existence of forces. If that is so, and if it still be the case at the end of six years, that only by force and by coercion can you make a settlement of the Irish question at the end of six years on the lines of our Bill, does anybody believe it possible that the election in this country can take place on anything but that particular issue? [An [HON. MEMBER: "The Army versus the People."] It is because we wish to avoid any chance of a settlement by force of this question that we made an attempt earlier in autumn, when it seemed that a proposal of this kind would not be ill-received. The First Lord of the Admiralty launched a proposal on his own responsibility at Dundee early in the autumn campaign, and he took great risks. He risked some of the favour of his own party by launching that proposal on his personal responsibility for the exclusion of Ulster, but he received a good deal of commendation and support for his courage from the other side for having done so, and for his contribution to a settlement by consent.

The proposal which the Prime Minister has now made is at least an ample fulfilment of what the First Lord suggested for the temporary exclusion of Ulster, and it has been received as an impossible proposal. I do not know that the last word has been absolutely said by the Government. I say plainly that beyond the six years we are not prepared to go. The country must settle it at the end of six years. I understand that one statement of the great objection to the inclusion of Ulster is that Ulster people object to being deprived of their rights in this Parliament as they consider it, and desire to have their affairs dealt with and settled in this Parliament until the same principle is also applied to other parts of the United Kingdom—that is, in other words, until a federal solution is arrived at. I am not sure that it is a matter still to be explored whether sonic progress might not be made to ensure that in some way before the six years expires some federal solution might be arrived at. Unless we do get a federal solution in time, Parliament, and I believe this country, will go under from the failure of Parliament to transact its business. I think that is absolutely essential, and if that be the case to make sure of the federal solution within the six years, that at any rate is a matter which can be discussed. I admit it is complex and difficult, but it is a matter which may be discussed, and if there be any general feeling that it is possible, and that it will in any way relieve the situation, I do not see in the least why discussion should not be resumed on that point. I think it very undesirable, however, that when we come to details of that kind, we should begin our discussion by launching proposals backwards and forwards across the floor of the House. If there is any idea of a possibility of a settlement on any of these lines, I think it would be much better the moment right hon. Gentlemen opposite feel that, that there should be some resumption of the private conversations which have been discontinued. The moment you come to details the mere launching of a detail before it has received any Parliamentary criticism or discussion is apt to foredoom its failure. I only suggest that about the federal solution to give one instance that I do not think the last word has yet been said. There is yet room for discussion, and possibly for sonic relief of the situation.

5.0 P.M.

I come now to the proposal which the right hon. Gentleman opposite launched across the floor of the House the other day about the Referendum. He made that proposal because he wished to make a proposal to us not for the special object of introducing the Referendum into our Constitution, but in order that some way might be found of obtaining the fair and effective opinion of the people of this country on this particular measure. He said that the Referendum should be without the plural vote. We do not believe the Referendum is an adequate or effectual way of obtaining the opinion of the people. The Referendum is a pure experiment. It may be that you will find very few people go to the poll, and in that case it would be an inadequate, ineffective, illusory, and untrue indication of the feeling of the country. There is one more point. We cannot agree to any settlement that does not mean placing the Home Rule Bill on the Statute Book. We cannot be left in the position that if an election takes place, whatever our majority may be after the election, we are to find ourselves in the position of having to begin at the beginning, and take two and a half years before we can bring the Bill into operation. I did not entirely follow what the view was. Had the right hon. Gentleman opposite said whether he was willing to substitute an election for the Referendum, with the same condition about plural voting attached to it—[An HON. MEMBER: "Are only Liberals to vote?]—Why, if you use the Referendum to obtain the true opinion of the people of this country, is that to be more truly and fairly obtained by eliminating the plural voter, when, if you come to an election, it is necessary to retain the plural voter in order that the election should be fair?

The right hon. Gentleman cannot possibly have considered the subject at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] He will agree with me. Does he not see that in a Referendum every vote is of the same value.

I do not believe that in that method you would get the people to go to the poll. [HON. MEMBER: "Try it."] Complete redistribution you cannot have before the Home Rule Bill conies into force; but, if it be the case of an election on those terms, and so arranged that the Home Rule Bill would come into operation within a year, or whatever its natural time would be after its passing, provided the election goes in favour of it, well, I think there may be something to be made of that proposal. We believe an election, and not the Referendum, would be the best method, and the only method by which you can really get the full opinion of the people of this country. We cannot agree to anything which would put us back as the result of an election, whatever our majority might be, into the position of having to go back to the beginning of the matter, and having to take two and a half years again to pass the Home Rule Bill. The Bill must be placed on the Statute Book. It might be placed on the Statute Book in a way which I believe would be perfectly fair as between both parties, whichever won the election. That, I believe, might perfectly well be arranged.

Now I come to something that the right hon. Gentleman said with regard to the use of force, and on that I should like to be very explicit. He quoted something I said the other day with regard to the use of force but he did not quote all I said. My memory is that I said that, in the long run, it might be that there could be no settlement except by force. I spoke, also, with the strongest dislike of a settlement by force. I will put my dislike to the use of force even stronger than I put it the other day. For a hundred years after the Union we tried to find a solution of the Irish question by force, and we came to the conclusion that, in the long run, force was no solution. That I am perfectly ready to admit. It makes me look with the greatest reluctance, almost with despair, upon finding any solution of the Ulster question purely by the use of force; and to embark on a policy of actual coercion to make Ulster submit to an authority in Ireland which she is determined to resist by force is a most grave, serious, and ominous thing. But I have never contemplated that question could arise until after an election. Under the Parliament Act Parliament is limited to five years. If our Bill is placed on the Statute Book, it must be the middle of next year before it comes into full operation and before that particular situation can arise. Before that time, I have always assumed that there must be an election, and I do not believe it possible for any Government—should that come to be the only thing in the last resort—to embark on that policy without having consulted the country upon it.

But that is a long way off. On the other hand, what are the risks before us within that time? We were told in the autumn continually that it was difficult to hold Ulster in, and that there might be outbreaks at any time. Then, I say, If there are such outbreaks, force must be used, and we shall not be the first to use it; we shall be meeting force by force. We have had a very frank admission from the Leader of the Opposition that, if it were a case of a Protestant majority anywhere breaking out upon a Catholic minority, the full forces of the Crown must be used, or whatever force is necessary—on that we are agreed. We are told that the moment the Bill is placed on the Statute Book, a year before it can possibly come into operation, a year before there can be any Dublin Parliament or Dublin Executive to resist, a year before there can be any question of using force to compel Ulster to submit to the operation of the Bill, there is to be a provisional Government set up. What is that provisional Government to do? Is it really going to take over the government of Ulster? If so, it is going to defy not the Dublin Parliament but the Imperial Parliament. Is it going to seize the Customs and the revenues, and generally to take over the whole administration and turn out the officers who are now lawfully carrying it on? Then, of course, force must be used. There is no escape from it. If, on the other hand, it is going to be a sort of voluntary association for doing its best to keep the peace between different sections in Ulster, then, if it does very little, very little matters. But, if it be set up really to take the place of the existing Government and of the Imperial Government, then obviously there can be no question that force must be used.

I should like to be perfectly clear, and I think it is very desirable and may save misunderstanding, as to what the Army are likely to be called upon to do. There can be no question until after an election. I think I have made that clear. It is practically admittedly impossible, under the Parliament Act, until after an election, for force to be used to coerce Ulster to submit to the operation of the Bill and to a Dublin Parliament and Dublin Executive; but, if in that interval before that arises, election or not, there is disturbance of the peace and disorder in Ulster, and an attempt to defeat the Government of the country and the Imperial Parliament, then, of course, the Army must be called upon; not to use all its force, but to do what is always a disagreeable necessity for the Army, whether it be in Great Britain or whether it be in any part of the Empire—to use such force as may be necessary to uphold the authority of the Crown and to preserve order. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the Prime Minister having gone to the War Office, and I said that I would not touch more largely than he had touched upon what we have discussed in recent days, and I propose not to do so; but surely there is a feeling that, if an election had been forced last week, we should have been brought to the brink of something where the Irish question and the Ulster question would have disappeared before much larger issues. If ever it really be the case that the Army, or any large section of the Army, takes active sides between the political parties in this country, then the country will be face to face with a question more serious and grave than it has known for three centuries. If ever the question of who is to govern in this country—whether it is to be the civil authority, the recognised Government in Parliament, that is to govern and decide policy alone, or whether it is to be interfered with—is raised, then I take my stand as strongly as anyone who spoke last week, even on the Labour Benches, with regard to what the feeling of the country and what my own feeling would be. I would feign avoid any such catastrophe as that of an election taken on that issue.

I would like to take the new Army Order that has been issued and the fact of the Prime Minister having taken the War Office as a reason for closing on both sides of the House the criticisms and censures which have been made, either upon the fact that questions were put to officers or that officers put questions to representatives of the Government. We have been very frank in admitting that hypothetical questions ought not to be put to officers which put them in a difficult position. We have been equally emphatic in the expression of our opinion about the impropriety of officers putting questions. The new Army Order starts on the assumption that the putting of certain questions may have been the origin of all the trouble. If that is so, then I think hon. Members opposite, who realise the strength of feeling which has been raised, might well be prepared, if hon. Members on this side of the House are also so prepared, to take what has happened—the issue of the new Army Order, and the taking of the War Office, for the time being, at any rate, by the Prime Minister—as passing no censure upon anybody, but as giving everyone who has been concerned in this business and the whole Army the opportunity of making a fair start. Should it turn out to be so, we may yet escape the issue which seemed to be raised last week. I trust that what I have said may have removed some misunderstanding as to the demands likely to be made on the Army, or as to what our view as to the duty of the Army is. There can be no misunderstanding as to the length things must go, and as to the depth of feeling there will be, if the forecast which I have ventured to put before the House of a fair start in this matter is not realised, and if again we have reopened by any incidents that may occur the grave questions which were opened by the incidents of last week. If we are thus forced, depend upon it the next election must be on something much more grave than the question of Ulster or of Ireland—upon something so grave that, whatever its result may be, it cannot leave things in the Constitution of this country as it found them.

We all listened, as the House always does, with great respect to the right hon. Gentleman. No one upon either Front Bench has a greater mastery of Parliamentary statement or impresses alike supporters and opponents by the candour of his statement. Everything he says, therefore, is listened to by his opponents not less than by his friends with the utmost possible respect. It is not in any spirit of disrespect, therefore, if I say that his concluding passages, so impressively delivered, seemed to me like some nightmare dream. Whoever dreamed that any responsible or irresponsible person in this country was going to suggest that the Army was to dictate our policy? No one ever dreamed of it on this side, and such a thought certainly has never crossed my mind. No one has ever contended for such a proposition. But I have not the least doubt that everyone must keep their own consciences. Whatever Parliament or King or anyone else may say or do, there must always be an ultimate appeal in every individual to his own conscience. More than that has not been claimed by any person of responsibility. No one on this side has ever contemplated such a suggestion as that advanced by the right hon. Gentleman, and my indignation is as great as that of the right hon. Gentleman at the mere suspicion that the Army should interfere with ordinary Parliamentary government. I put aside what the right hon. Gentleman said at the end of his speech, because no one on this side of the House ever dreamt in his wildest dreams of such a thing.

The right hon. Gentleman said something about the Referendum, and he indicated his objection to adopting that solution which seems to many of us the most logical and reasonable solution of the problem. He made the objection first that no one will go to the poll. On that I think he is mistaken; at any rate, one cannot tell until it has been tried. Secondly, he said that an election without plural voting would be the same thing as a Referendum. That shows that the right hon. Gentleman has never looked into the question of plural voting, and its working, or the working of the representative system. If there had been true proportional representation in the present Parliament, the Ministerial party—the coalition—would only have had a majority of thirty-eight. They actually had a majority of 126. Supposing plural voting had not operated at the last election the Liberal party would have won twenty seats more, and they would have had a majority of 166 instead of the majority of thirty-eight, to which they would have been entitled according to the true principles of electoral representation. Therefore, we claim that the party opposite are not entitled to carry their Plural Voting Bill without any other electoral reform; for that would make our electoral system under a conceivable eventuality even more corrupt than it now is. It would make this House much less representative of the people than it is now. With a Referendum everybody has one vote, and the effect does really correspond with the balance of opinion. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman has missed the whole point of the suggestion. It is perfectly logical and reasonable. You have no plural voting in the Referendum; but we cannot consent to the abolition of plural voting in the representative system unless you are going to have a proper reform of the whole representative system. If you are going to have one man one vote, you ought to give to every vote an exact value, and the only way in which you can give every vote its true value in the representative system is by proportional representation. You might as well deny a proposition in Euclid as deny that. Therefore, it would appear that the Government have not really given sufficient consideration to my right hon. Friend's proposal when he meets it with such a criticism as this.

There is some misconception in the Noble Lord's mind. I have not the least objection to a redistribution of seats.

A Bill for the Redistribution of Seats is exceedingly difficult to carry, because directly you propose redistribution you have local opposition from all quarters. I am not going to say a word against any proposal which makes for peace, but I think the right hon. Gentleman would find great difficulty in carrying out redistribution with the abolition of plural voting at the present political juncture. The difficulty would be very great indeed. The right hon. Gentleman sketched two or three proposals which he thought were open to consideration in respect of a modification of this Bill. He said, and he said with perfect truth, that it was of no use making proposals unless they were to begin with a belief in the good faith of those making the proposal. That is a very reasonable suggestion. It is quite true you cannot fairly consider any proposal, good, bad, or indifferent, unless you believe in the good faith of those who put it forward. But then those who are desirous of giving an impression of good faith should really take the trouble to make proposals which are not so obviously defective as to lead the uncharitable to suggest that they were really put forward not to be passed but only to argue about. Again, is it desirable, when you are putting peace proposals forward, to make exceedingly combative and aggressive speeches? The first Lord of the Admiralty, at an early point in this stage of negotiations, went to Bradford and made a speech which certainly was not calculated to convey an impression of good faith. I put it to the Foreign Secretary—and we know his perfect good faith in this matter—whether it does not create an impression of bad faith when we see manœuvres which have for their object the subordination of peace to party tactics, and when we have violent speeches made just when the period of negotiation is beginning? The right hon. Gentleman says he was very dissatisfied with the acceptance of his proposal. I think that hon. Members opposite are very unreasonable to come to us in the midst of a heated controversy and to make proposals which appear so illogical and so difficult of working that it is hardly possible for anyone to believe that they are put forward with a view to their acceptance. You are surprised that at the first jump off, at the first outset, such proposals are not accepted with open arms. I am sure that when the right hon. Gentleman conducted the Balkan negotiations he did not proceed with them in that spirit. He did not, because his proposals were not accepted at once with open arms, take up such an attitude.

No one in the Balkan negotiations said that a proposal was "a hypocritical sham."

To that I should answer that he never made so unreasonable a proposal; nor did he make his proposals in so excitable atmosphere as the House of Commons. These things require time for reflection.

The right hon. Gentleman hinted at Home Rule within Home Rule. It is, of course, a very ingenious suggestion, but I have never been able to see how it would work. I do not think anyone believes Home Rule would work as between Ireland and Great Britain unless with the utmost desire on both sides to make it work. You rely on the one side on the gratitude of the Nationalist party, and on the other on the traditional good sense of the British people, to make workable all sorts of machinery, very complicated and open to all sorts of friction. You think it would work because there would be good will at both ends. I do not think you are right in that. But does anybody suppose there can be good will between Belfast and Dublin? Does anyone suppose that the big Home Rule Government and the little Home Rule Government would really try to make the thing work as smoothly as possible? Does anyone suppose that on either side there would be that spirit and disposition which alone could make the complicated machinery work? That is one reason for distrusting Home Rule within Home Rule. But if the Government believe in it, let them bring their proposals forward. Do not let us always be trying to dress up a ghost. Let us have a substantial body on which we can put clothes. If the Government believe in Home Rule within Home Rule, let them put their proposals down by way of Amendment, and then we shall see what they are. It is not possible to discuss these things as long as they are in the vague.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Sir Horace Plunkett's arrangement. I do not think that would work. I do not think anyone can believe in the temporary inclusion of Ulster. Then we have the Government proposal for a six years' exclusion. The whole difficulty of that turns on the time limit. The Government apparently think that their time limit is an adequate proposal because within that time limit there will be two General Elections. Can anyone really suggest that that is a satisfactory arrangement? We are all of us in Great Britain tired of the Irish question. Is it a good thing to fight two more General Elections upon it? I cannot believe that the Government themselves really want to fight two more General Elections on the Irish question, and, therefore, I am somewhat inclined to agree with those uncharitable people who say that such a proposal, although made for tactics, is not really meant to be accepted. That is where the good faith of the Government comes under suspicion. They put forward things which no one in their sane senses believe in. If you are going to settle the Irish question you want to have a stable system which everyone—Ulsterman, Southerner, and Nationalist—can regard as a fixed arrangement for a considerable number of years. Can you conceive anything more likely to irritate all the contending factions in Ireland than this six years' proposal? Can you conceive anything more likely to keep Ulster stewing in sectarian bitterness? Can you conceive anything more inimical to the objects of peace? It is for these reasons that I believe this six years' proposal to be an unreasonable proposal. Nevertheless, I do press upon the Government, if they think their proposal is a good one, that they should put it forward. Let it be put forward by way of a suggestion under the Parliament Act. I prefer the method of suggestion to any other, because, among other things, you can get at it quicker. I believe that in the present state of tension and heat the great thing is to lower the temperature. Let us on both sides of the House get a lower warmth of temperature. If you carry any form of exclusion through this House, I am persuaded that the temperature would be lowered, even if it were in the unsatisfactory form of the Government proposal. The fact that this House formally committed itself to exclusion, whatever the conditions, would relieve the extreme tension that at present exists. Honestly, I believe, that no House of Commons, when they really consider the six years' limit, will adopt that method of solution. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say, in reply to somebody on these benches who interrupted him and asked whether Ulstermen must keep up their forces for six years, when he replied with some warmth of tone, that forces would be quite unnecessary, because opinion will be quite sufficient. I understood him to mean that the opinion of Ulster will be quite sufficient. If that is really the position of the Government, then nothing divides the two sides of the House. We are quite content with a settlement which will make the exclusion of Ulster dependent upon the opinion of Ulster. If it is the right hon. Gentleman's view that Ulster ought to be kept out so long as it wishes to be kept out, we are only disagreeing about machinery, and we are thoroughly agreed in principle; of course, on this very limited question only.

We thoroughly agree that the exclusion of Ulster ought to be dependent upon the opinion of Ulster. I am persuaded that if this matter were fairly discussed, and discussed with some relaxation of party discipline, the majority of the House would be in favour of carrying exclusion on the basis of consent. It is so entirely in accord with what appears to be the mind of the Government themselves, that I cannot believe a fair discussion of the matter would not end in that way. I am exceedingly anxious that we should adopt, without unnecessary delay, the principle of the exclusion of Ulster. Even in the defective form of the Government's proposal I should welcome it. I am quite sure that we are in great danger of doing two things: First, of allowing the temperature to rise to a point where reason disappears altogether in party passion; and, secondly, in danger of coming to treat this matter, this infinitely grave matter, as if it were a matter of bargain, agreement, and contention between the two parties. You cannot really deal with the art of government in that spirit. Constantly in the late Debates it has been put that if the Ulstermen did strike the first blow, would it not be reasonable for the Army to put them down by force, as if it were a matter of the balance of justice between the one and the other. That is not the way to look at it. Whoever is to blame, wherever the ultimate source of grievance lies, an appeal to force would be a most inconceivable mischief to the whole country, and especially to Ireland. We ought not to think of it as trying to throw the blame on one side or the other. If we are to arrive at a solution, we ought to have on our minds the immense calamity which both sides of the House ought to be anxious to avoid. Now I enter upon more contentious ground, but I am obliged to say that hon. Members almost shock me by their attitude of mind on this question.

To force Ulster under a Government it renounces would be one of the greatest crimes recorded in history. I cannot conceive a wickeder proceeding on the part of a civilised Government. I have tried to think whether in the whole course of history there is anything like it. Of course, there is such a thing as the consequence of foreign conquest. If you take the case of the Tyrol, which I think is a fair parallel, that was handed over from Austria to Bavaria, and the patriot Hofer was taken by Napoleon and shot. That was always considered an exceedingly harsh and tyrannical proceeding on the part of Napoleon, and a great international crime. But that was done after foreign conquest. The only other parallel I can think of was Warren Hastings abandonment of the Rohillas to the King of Oudh. That was done for the purposes of money, otherwise it was done very much as the present Government are doing this. He wanted to please the King of Oudh and get money, just as the Government want to please the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond) and get votes. He agreed to hand over the Rohillas, and when they would not submit he lent the British Army to shoot down the Rohillas. That was an infamous crime. I really think when it is contemplated to shed blood by the bucketful, and to shoot down hundreds and thousands of human beings, in order to carry through a miserable party manœuvre, it is sheer, stark wickedness. [An HON. MEMBER: "Now the temperature rises."] My object is to bring home to hon. Members' consciences the depth of wickedness involved. It is a very grave matter. You are engaging in it as if it were an ordinary manœuvre in party politics. I do not complain of your passing the Parliament Act in that sort of way. That is quite another matter, and is within ordinary party controversy and the use of ordinary party weapons, but you are not entitled to force people, plain yeomen and plain artisans, under a domination which is literally and truthfully more hateful to them than foreign domination. It is sheer, stark tyranny. Therefore I press upon the Government, as that duty lies upon them as the Government of the country, not, to treat this matter as if it could be set aside because the Opposition did not welcome it on the first night the proposals were made. That is not the way you can conduct the government of the people or solve great problems. You cannot throw from side to side proposals for better government. If the Government, as the right hon. Gentleman with perfect sincerity said, tell us that they were made in good faith, let them put forward their proposal by way of suggestion under the Parliament Act. Let us fairly and fully discuss it, let us move from our side what Amendments we think are desirable—I earnestly appeal to the Government to let their supporters have somewhat more freedom than most Governments give their supporters in the discussion—and let the fair judgment of the House of Commons pass the suggestion if it can. Even if it is a bad suggestion, it will be better than nothing. If it is a serious improvement, and if the Bill places the exclusion of Ulster on a practicable basis, then good work will have been done. I say all this not as diminishing an iota the general opposition we feel to Home Rule. We are just as much convinced as we ever were that, with Ulster excluded or without it, this is a most unwise and most dangerous measure. We are still perfectly convinced that the true Government of the United Kingdom is to treat it as one nation with a single Parliament and a single Executive. But anything is better than dissolving society by civil war. Let us then, not agreeing about Home Rule—for that is impossible—bend our common efforts to introducing into this Bill such safeguards as will not make it a good Bill, but, like some other Government proposals, a bad Bill, but not a Bill which will reduce the whole country to anarchy and create a new Irish question, much more difficult of solution and much more ruinous in the end than is the Irish question now.

I have never, so far, intervened in the Home Rule Debates, but the gravity of the present situation has made me feel that it is one's duty, if one feels strong enough on the question, to come forward and express one's opinion. We owe a debt of gratitude to the Foreign Secretary for having brought a calmer atmosphere to this House than we have had recently. The Noble Lord who has just sat down did, on the whole, with perhaps a single exception, keep the temperature down. It is my intention, if I possibly can, to lower the temperature still further. I do not call myself a moderate man, and I should be very sorry to be called so by anybody else, but I feel that on an occasion of this sort it rests with those who feel that we have reached a moment when we ought as a House of Commons to rise to our responsibilities, to give their opinion, even although they do not get uproarious cheers from the party point of view. During the past week we have had ammunition enough on both sides of the House to last for several months. I can assure the Noble Lord who has just sat clown that it would not be difficult for me to respond to the heated part of his argument, but it is our duty at this moment to resist accusing one another of hatching plots, and, as far as the question of Home Rule is concerned, to desist from the very strong party accusations that have been passed across the floor of the House during the past week or so. I believe there is a strong body of opinion on both sides of the House desirous of seeing this question settled, and that in the country the people are getting exasperated with us, as a House of Commons, for not settling this question, and that they will become enraged with us if we allow the ship of State to drift again into stormy waters. It is our duty at this moment to attempt to establish some order out of what appears to be chaos.

As one who has Irish blood in his veins, I have always had the deepest sympathy with the aspirations of the Nationalists in Ireland; but while we are quarrelling, as we have been during the past week, both Nationalist and Unionist Ireland are waiting for the settlement of the question which concerns them both. If we allow ourselves to go on we shall keep them waiting and shall not settle this present question. I have attended the whole of the Debates during the last two or three years, although I have not taken any part in them. I have looked to the passage of the Home Rule Bill. About that there has never seemed to me since the passing of the Parliament Act, any great difficulty. But I have looked beyond that. It is not the passage of the Bill, it is the establishment of good government in Ireland that I look to as the great objective. I feel sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond) would infinitely prefer to see Home Rule in Ireland come as a message of peace, rather than as a signal for strife. Since I came into this House I have regarded this question as part of a great whole. We were told by the Prime Minister, when he was introducing this Bill that it was the first step in a scheme for the granting of Home Rule to other parts of the United Kingdom. I have realised the urgency of the Irish demand. I have seen that the moment has come when the Irish question must be settled. I have also seen that Irish Home Rule must be the excuse for granting Home Rule to other parts of the United Kingdom. It is impossible for an architect to build one storey of a house without having the full plan of the whole edifice before him, and it is clear that we should have a plan before us by which the United Kingdom. as a whole, can receive better government in the future. When I, as an Englishman, stood for a Scottish constituency, I began to realise how Scotland was suffering also from the neglect of her affairs by the Imperial Parliament, and after studying the question I became more and more impressed with the fact that Scottish Home Rule must quickly follow, and that, if that follows, the entire scheme must be drawn up. This is not starting a new hare. I am not suggesting something which has never been proposed before. It is the policy of the Government that I am urging should be brought forward now in such a manner as to make us see the future more clearly. I should like to remind the House of what the Prime Minister said on this question. When he spoke at Earlstown some years ago he said:—
"I have always held the view, and hold it still more strongly than ever with each year of increasing experience at Westminster, that there is no other solution of the congestion of the Parliamentary machine, in which it may be Scotland suffers more than any other part of the United Kingdom, than by some form of delegation of Parliamentary business to local authorities with local knowledge and local responsibility."
In introducing the Home Rule Bill in 1912 he said:—
"What we are doing now—I say this advisedly—we should do with the distinct and direct purpose of these fuller and further applications of the principle."
Members of the Opposition have also shown their readiness to consider the question of devolution or Home Rule all round. Lord Lansdowne, in the House of Lords, said only last year:—
"Whenever the Government's scheme of federation is produced, I for one am ready to treat it with the utmost respect and a desire to find in it a solution of the difficulties with which we have for so long contended."
The negotiations which took place in the autumn were at one moment hopeful. We hoped very much that something might come of the various speeches which were made on both sides, although it was a very difficult way of coming to any agreement, and I would remind those who think that there are extremists who are irreconcilable on this point, such as the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson), that at one moment during the autumn he was one of the most reasonable of those who desired to show that they were ready to meet any proposals so long as they did not infringe on the general principles which they held, and it was the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) who said, at Manchester, on 3rd December:—
"I desire to state, if I can make any contribution towards this settlement. if it is ever approached seriously, that in satisfying the parties interested, first the United Kingdom must be considered and then Ulster. I lay down these preliminaries to any possible settlement, and I do not think that they will be considered unreasonable. I lay down, first, that no settlement most humiliate or degrade us. I lay down, secondly, that we must not get any treatment different and exceptional front the treatment offered to any other part of the United Kingdom. We must have preserved to us what every citizen has, neither more nor less. We must have the same protection of the Imperial Parliament, and, above all, we must have no deal and no Act which establishes the foundation for an ultimate separation of your country from ours,"
And very shortly after the Prime Minister said:—
"I have been looking all these weeks, and looking in vain, for some corresponding and, if possible, not irreconcilable statement in equally general terms from those of the Opposition who are ready, or profess to be ready, to attempt a settlement. I find it, or I fancy I find it, for the first time, in a speech delivered by Sir Edward Carson in this city only a couple of nights ago."
I only quote this to the House to show that we are not justified in saying that there is any irreconcilable opinion.

I am very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that, and it is only our party warfare, which has become so acute, that has made us drift away again from one another. I think we have drifted so far that during the last week we may have been shaken into our senses, and if we can come back and find the right hon. Gentleman in that frame of mind which he says he still holds, and we can find the Government in the frame of mind which was shown by the Foreign Secretary this afternoon, there is very great hope of a settlement still. I often think, when I come into the House on these great nights when party feeling runs high, we form an admirable audience for the Front Benches. We encourage them and we cheer them, but they do not always represent what we think. I do not know what method is adopted by hon. Members opposite, but I know on our side of the House there is an extraordinary difficulty of a proper connecting link between the Back Benches and the Front Bench. The Front Benches live in another world from what we do, and I do not think they always take perhaps as much pains as they might to find out what the sentiment of a good many of their followers is. I should like to see the private Members of the House of Commons asserting their right to express an opinion which may differ from the Front Benches, but which is an honest opinion, desiring a settlement of this matter.

I want to say a word on the various proposals which were touched upon by the Foreign Secretary. Let me take, first of all, the Referendum. I object altogether to the Referendum. My reason is that I prefer being a representative and not a delegate. If I am to become a delegate, I should ask my Constituents to find someone else to come here. In the second place, I believe that it is an experiment which is rather risky, and I think it is very likely that we should get a very small percentage going to the poll to register their votes. It is extremely difficult to put a question to the electors. How you are going to put the whole Home Rule Bill to the electors so that the agricultural labourers will understand what they are voting about, I do not know. Then, if it is rejected, is it possible for the Government to survive? It is quite impossible. Therefore, it really is not a method of government which we desire to see introduced into our public institutions, and for us to adopt it for the first time for such a very grave and critical question as this seems to me out of the question altogether.

I want to touch very lightly on the question of six years, because I realise that just about there is the point where we may come to an agreement or fail to come to an agreement. It seems to me that the Government proposals as they stand are important for this reason: That it would be contrary to our principles—the principles of those who believe in Home Rule and a United Ireland—to put into their Bill anything which meant permanent exclusion. I do not see how it would be possible for us to do that consistently with the principles we hold. Also, if we do away with the six years' limit it would mean two Acts of Parliament in order that Home Rule in Ireland should be established with the whole of Ireland united and that, I think, is very undesirable. But in the interval of six years it seems to me that there is an opportunity for us to take advantage of the proposal which has been shadowed. I think that interval might well be used to set up a statutory commission or convention to consider and draw up a scheme for the federal government of the United Kingdom as a whole. That six years would be well occupied, and I believe it would be for the good of the country if such a scheme were drawn up. I have Irish blood in my veins, but I am an Englishman, and I stand for a Scottish constituency, so I do not look at the thing from a biassed point of view. But I feel that as we all agree on so many points, what we have to do in the next few days is to accentuate those points and do what we can to diminish the points of difference.

Does the hon. Member propose that all Ireland should be one unit?

6.0 P.M.

My proposal would certainly be that Ireland should be united in the eventual scheme. But for the present, what has impressed me about the Ulster opposition is this: I never tolerated sonic of the arguments which have been brought forward, but there is one argument which has impressed me. They have said, "Why should we be governed by a subordinate Parliament, when we protest against it, while our fellow countrymen in Scotland and England, are under the Imperial Parliament?" If during the six years a Liberal scheme is worked out and Scotland has her Parliament, England has hers, and Wales hers, the Ulstermen will be in precisely the same position as all their fellow citizens of the United Kingdom, and that objection, which I consider perfectly reasonable, will disappear. But it is very important at this moment that as many of us as possible should attempt to come together on one of these points. If we dissipate our energies in discussing a great many proposals, I think we shall arrive on Thursday night again at a state of despondency, feeling that we have got no further forward. I would suggest that this is a proposal which really brings least resistance. and which is likely to get most support. I can assure my Nationalist friends that the last thing I wish to do is to delay Home Rule, or to delay the prospects of a united Ireland. My desire is to expedite matters. But I see also the enormous difference there is between getting Home Rule by consent and getting it with a protesting and antagonistic minority. The difference is quite gigantic. One means the establishment of better government in Ireland, which will mean peace and prosperity in the future, but the other means antagonism, which will continue to grow, and barriers between religious sects, between races, and between social classes, which will continue to grow higher and become more difficult to surmount. The difference between the two is quite immeasurable, and we have got so near the point when we may get this Bill by consent that it would be madness for the House of Commons not to take full advantage of the opportunity.

I do not mean the Bill by consent, because nobody asks hon. Gentlemen opposite to renounce their dislike of the principle of Home Rule, but I mean the setting up of a scheme of Home Rule by consent. It may be supposed that it is a quixotic idea to suggest this uniting of the two parties after the storms and conferences of the last few days. It may be supposed that I am suggesting something which is idealistic and impossible when I ask the two Front Benches to join hands in this matter, but I believe in the great generosity of human nature, even of political human nature, and I believe also that sometimes after the heaviest and wildest storms you get the finest weather.

I desire to say that the speech of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Ponsonby) was one of thoughtful reasoning at a time when passion has been running very high. I believe that our contests on this question from the first to last have been based on the word consent, and I believe, also, that I am not wrong in saying that hitherto the party opposite has held that as the watchword in nearly all its ideals. It is always considered that no government without consent is possible. The Prime Minister used words on 9th March last which, I think, have been forgotten by ninny on both sides. He said:—

"The best traditions of our past, no less than the undisclosed and fateful issues of the future, appeal to us to-day with imperious accents to pursue, if we can, the way of unity and peace."
I simply ask the House to consider the utterances of the leader of the Ulster Unionists at Manchester. He laid down, in the first place, that no settlement must humiliate or degrade to Ulster; secondly, that they must not get any treatment different and exceptional from the treatment offered to any part of the United Kingdom; and, thirdly, that they must have preserved to them what every citizen has, neither more nor less—they must have the same protection of the Imperial Parliament, and, above all, they must have no Bill and no Act which establishes the foundation for the ultimate separation of this country from Ireland. That was followed by a speech of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who, speaking on 4th December last at Bradford, said:—
"It has been in the minds of many of us, but a federal solution is a very big thing. It is our objective in the long run—Home Rule all round."
I have always had a dream that the day may come, even in our time, when there will be a federal system in the British Empire, and I confess that my view in the past has been that the British Isles should form a federal union in a federal system of the Empire. If you believe that further proceedings on the lines of last week will prove absolutely and utterly disastrous to our country, then I say, if you believe in a system of federalism at all, it is our duty to look at this question all round. I think hon. Gentlemen opposite know—no one will deny—that if one shot had been fired last week by accident, whether for precautionary purposes or for purposes of a different description, there would have been no peace in Ireland in this generation. You would not have settled this question, and you would not have brought to Ireland what every man desires to see in that country. Supposing there was a party victory on this question, won by means of force which the Secretary of State to-day has apparently once more suggested may be employed, are you going to bring peace to the two peoples who, speaking broadly—and I believe I am not exaggerating—will not even intermarry to-day—if you are going to win a victory in a river of blood, I do not believe it is possible to bring peace to them in this manner. I wish to take exception to what the First Lord of the Admiralty said last night. He tried to suggest that the attitude of the Opposition was most unreasonable the last time the question of concessions were discussed. Let us examine this. I think it must be agreed that the Unionist party leaders went a very long way on that occasion, and tried even at the eleventh hour and fifty-five minutes to see if we could not come together.

What was the proposition? First of all. we had the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson), in which he deliberately asked the Government: Why do not they extend their exclusion of Ulster until Parliament should otherwise order? I think that was, from his point of view, a very great extension. We are the Unionist party. It has been our whole aim to try to maintain the Union. Can anyone say that the right hon. Gentleman did not go an enormous way to meet the party opposite at that time? Can anyone say that it was not a generous proposal that was made in regard to the Referendum, and with regard to the pledge he had received from the Unionist leaders in the House of Lords? I think that must be admitted. The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Ponsonby) said that the Government could not possibly survive after a Referendum had been carried against them. I venture to think that a Government which has such rejuvenating force as the present one, and which survived the events of last week, would certainly survive an adverse vote on a Referendum. I would point out that Governments have survived in countries where the Referendum has been used, and where the vote has been adverse to their policy. As to the statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty that the attitude of the Unionist party was unreasonable, I venture to think that two specific proposals were put forward by his side on that occasion as to the compulsion at the end of six years which seemed to me absolutely unreasonable, in view of the tension of feeling which exists in Ulster. Whether they are to be compelled to-day, to-morrow, next year, or six years hence, you cannot win Ulster by this compulsion, which is contrary to the whole principle of government in this country in days gone by. After these proposals had been made the First Lord of the Admiralty went to Bradford, and he was not helpful to the general discussion when he spoke of bringing this matter to the test. He went out of his way to say that he was prepared to see bloodshed on a large scale. Considering the spirit which had previously existed, it was not surprising that some passions were raised when that speech was made. It was hardly conciliatory from his point of view to provide all the various munitions of war, Cavalry brigades. Infantry brigades, and ships. It was not helpful to the situation. It was bad that such a statement should be made at that moment, and I believe moderate opinion on all sides deplores the utterance and those actions.

I believe we are prepared to ask, What is good for the country at this moment? Can we come together and find a way out of this difficulty? Delay in this matter surely is very bad. We must recognise that there might so easily be just a small civil disturbance, which might not be countenanced by leaders on either side in the province of Ulster, which would cause trouble. Obviously it is just that spark that is needed to have a great disturbance on both sides. It might happen in the shipyards. Surely, if the Government has one word more to say, our party, if they said it, should be prepared to receive it in the spirit in which it is made. I would ask the House to consider the effect of the prolongation of this agony in the Army and Navy. I have done my best to make the Territorial Force a success, but it is difficult for us and for every man who is desirous at present of joining that force, and who asks himself the question, "What does the future hold out?" after the speeches which we have had on the discipline of the Army and the Navy. If there is any possible way out of this difficulty, let us come together. Let us know where we are, and we certainly can fight for our main principle without any question whatever.

The whole difficulty seems to me to come from the actual distinction which some people try to draw with regard to what is the difference between civil strife and the possibility of civil war. Directly the Nationalists of Ireland claimed that Ireland was to be a nation. there, I think, we found a distinction which made it so very difficult for people in this country. When they found that the people of one province were being deliberately told that they were to be put in a permanent minority in a different nation, there you created a feeling which nothing could get rid of. But a federal settlement would have a very different effect. It would be giving greater power to people in localities. I have always been amazed that this House has not long ago agreed to prevent witnesses coming over here year after year from Ireland to decide whether there should be a harbour, or a canal, or something of that kind in a particular place. I think that we have got past that stage. On a federal basis I do believe that you could get union in all national affairs, even though you might delegate the local powers to various parts of the country. I believe that no great advantage can come from a prolongation of this question. Nothing could be more disastrous for this country than that we should go through what we went through last week. I do not think that anyone in this House really believes that it was a good thing for this country that we should have seen permitted here a great discussion as to the attitude of soldiers and sailors, who are absolutely prohibited from going on platforms, and saying which line they would prefer to take. I think that there is a great deal to be said for the view that the attitude of officers, either for or against, should be dismissed out of our discussion.

Personally, much as I hate and loathe the present Government in every direction, I would much sooner see it kept in power for another five or six months than that we should see civil war in Ulster. [Laughter.] I am glad to see that there is general assent to that. But when we are so near together, when the Leader of the Unionist party and the Leader of the Ulster party have made it perfectly plain that they were only standing out for this principle of consent, when it was possible still for this House to make perfectly clear that Ulster can always come in if the rest of Ireland is well governed, as hon. Gentlemen opposite all believe will be the case, and when it is possible then immediately to start forward by calling together a convention and considering the federal devolution of Great Britain and Ireland as a whole, I am perfectly certain that it will be a good thing for this country. I know that it is extremely difficult at the present time to talk on either side absolutely away from what I may call the strict party issue, but I do believe that the majority of this House feel that we have been near so great dangers in the few days that have gone by, that it would be so utterly disastrous for us to tamper in any way with the great institutions of this country which have hitherto always been free from criticism that. I cannot help thinking that if the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is really sincere about this question he, during his leadership of the House, can make clear that he is ready to come a little way in our direction in order to try and take back his party once more to those great principles of consent upon which it has been built up, and on which alone it can be called Liberal in the days to come.

I have been somewhat surprised at the conciliatory tone of the speeches delivered this evening from the benches opposite. The right hon. Gentleman who opened the Debate put forward the sincerity of the Opposition with reference to this question. The Opposition may be very sincere on this question, but I should like them to believe that those of us who are supporting this Bill are also sincere in our views. It may or may not interest the House to know that many years ago I used to be a anti-Home Ruler. I supported the right hon. Gentleman the ex-Leader of the Opposition in 1892 by giving him my vote for the Constituency that I now represent, and I also voted in 1885 and 1886 for the late Member for North-East Manchester (Sir James Ferguson). I think hon. Members opposite will agree that in 1885, or at least 1886, the Home Rule question was very prominent. It has been said now that we ought to have an appeal to the country. So far as I am personally concerned, I believe that we have already appealed long enough to the country. We have had two elections in 1910, and when hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite say that the electors of the country were not aware of what would take place if the supporters of this Government who were in favour of the Parliament Act were returned, I think that, we can all recognise that the electors were aware of what would happen if a majority in favour of the Parliament Act came back to this House.

I have here my address Which was delivered to the electors of East Manchester in December, 1910, and I there stated distinctly that, if elected, I should support a measure of local self-government for Ireland, because I believe that only by that means can justice be meted out to Leland. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members opposite say "Hear. hear." I think hon. Members will agree that even at the last election it would have been impossible to put before the. country all the details of a Bill for local self-government for Ireland, and it is very seldom that that is done. I think that the Home Rule Bill as presented at the present time is really a very mild kind of measure, so far as Ireland is concerned, and when hon. Gentlemen opposite talk of what Ulster will do, I want to suggest to them what the greater portion of Ireland may do, if through any accident it happened that the Home Rule Bill was not carried in this House. We on these Labour benches believe in majority rule. The majority of the Irish nation are in favour of this Bill. We have always contended in the trade union world that those who are in a majority ought at least to have their say when they are demanding things that are only fair and reasonable. I believe that this Bill is only fair and reasonable, so far as the Irish nation is concerned. I do not believe that if we had another election at the present time, it would be the means of settling this matter. The Opposition to my mind would then say that some other question had affected the result, and that Home Rule had not been prominently before the electors, and even then a few months afterwards they would be calling out for another General Election.

The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University said that he did not complain of the Government carrying the Parliament Act. I remember when he stood in his place there, and would not allow the Prune Minister to speak on account of the Parliament Act. If we are to have men who will interrupt, and who will prevent business from being carried on in this House in matters like that, and will from those Front Benches tell us that if this Bill is forced through it is going to be the means of causing a civil war in Ulster, then I say that if civil war does come the blame will rest on hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, who have been consistently preaching civil war. I believe that the Government have already made enough of concessions on this Bill. I believe that the six years' exclusion is a very great concession that has been offered those who are opposed to the Bill. The Prime Minister has pointed out that there would be two General Elections during those six years. If the electors in the United Kingdom still think that Ulster should not come into an Irish Parliament, then they can decide it. Personally, I am sorry that this matter has to be again before the country for even six years. I was hopeful that this Bill would be the means of settling it during the present Parliament, and I must deprecate the threatening speeches that have been made as to what is going to take place if the Government persist in this Bill.

We on these benches are most anxious that this matter should be cleared out of the way. It has been before the country for the past thirty or forty years. The working classes of this country are beginning to realise that the sooner it is out of the way the better it will be for their economic interests being at tended to in the British House of Commons. So long as Home Rule is being discussed here year after year, questions of social reform affecting the interests of the workers are constantly being neglected. We are most anxious that this Bill should be carried this Session. I hope that the Government will be firm, and that they will press this matter forward. Of course, if it is possible at all to agree with the Opposition by consent to do something so that the Irish Parliament can start without any opposition, then so much the better. But I am of opinion, or at least it seems to be so now, that whatever concessions are made, the Opposition are constantly crying for more. If the Government attempt to make any further concessions I am of the opinion that they will again be called cowards as they have been called in the past, and it will be said that they are afraid of Ulster. I do hope, however, that this matter will be settled by consent. Great changes have taken place during the last twenty years on this important matter. People who were strongly opposed to Home Rule many years ago are now strongly in favour of Home Rule, because they believe than only by granting Home Rule to Ireland shall we have a contented and loyal nation so far as that country is concerned.

We do not always agree upon these benches with the Members of the Irish party opposite. They have gone into the Lobby many times with the Government when we have gone into the Lobby against it. It is perfectly true that on pure labour questions the Trish Members have even gone into the Lobby with the Government and with Members of the Opposition, while the Labour party have been practically by themselves. I am not going to blame Trish Members, because they have been demanding this measure of local self-government for the past thirty years, and, so far as they are personally concerned, they are not going to allow this opportunity to be lost by jeopardising the Bill in any way through their action I do not blame them. But in the past they have been so democratic that they have at least voted constantly and consistently in favour of the democracy of this country and at the same time of Ireland. I and my colleagues on these benches believe that by granting this measure of local self-government to Ireland we shall only be doing justice to that nation, and I trust that the Government will press this matter forward.

It was, I think, the Member for Stirling, who, in the interesting speech which he made a short time ago, put forward a proposition of his own towards the settlement of this great question, and he treated us to a rather interesting disquisition upon the relations between the Back Benches and the Front Benches. I am not myself in a position to say, one way or another, whether his proposal in the direction of a settlement is likely to lead there at all, and certainly I am not going to follow his example in making any proposal on my own account, because I bear in mind that at the beginning of this Session it was very distinctly laid down by the Prime Minister that the duty of taking the initiative with regard to any proposal for settlement lay with the Government. Under those circumstances, it appears to me that whatever opinions may be held on the Back Benches, on the one side or the other, it is a waste of time for any of us to make proposals until the Government have said what they are willing to do. We all listened with great interest and respect to the speech made this afternoon by the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary. And I noticed that he laid great stress upon the proposition that a number of proposals had been made in the direction of settlement which had been made in good faith. He was anxious that we should all recognise that these proposals, whether they were agreed with or not, were made in good faith. He told us of Sir Horace Plunkett's scheme; he told us of the federalisation scheme, a scheme identified with the name of Lord Hythe among others; and the other was a scheme identified with the right hon. Gentleman himself, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs—a scheme known as Home Rule within Home Rule.

When the right hon. Gentleman enumerates those schemes, and asks us to believe that they have all been put forward in good faith, it is not a little peculiar that the one scheme which he says nothing whatever about is the only one which has been put forward in the name of Ulster. There has been a scheme put forward in the name of Ulster by representatives from Ulster—I mean the scheme known as the exclusion of Ulster. Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that that scheme is equally entitled to be considered as having been put forward in good faith? Is it to be supposed that all those other schemes, which appeal more than this apparently to some hon. Gentlemen opposite, can all claim to have good faith as their motive and that the one scheme put forward to some extent in the name of Ulster is to be excluded from that category, and, if so, why? I know that when it was first suggested a long time ago hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite scouted the idea on the ground that it has been put forward from this side of the House, not as a bonâ-fide attempt to amend the Bill, but with the idea of wrecking the Bill. That was what was said. At all events that cannot be said now, because a proposal which does not differ in principle, so far as that is concerned, has been submitted by the Prime Minister himself, and if it is not necessarily wrecking the Bill to exclude certain areas in Ulster by local option, it is ridiculous to suppose that it must necessarily wreck the Bill to extend and to alter the area of which exclusion is made.

Therefore, I think we may reasonably submit that, I will not say our scheme, because it has never been put forward from this side of the House as an ideal settlement of the question, but at all events the one proposal towards settlement which has recommended itself to the Ulster representatives and to this side of the House, is the one which apparently some hon. Gentlemen opposite still regard as being put forward not only as a wrecking Amendment but without good faith, and is the one which the right hon. Gentleman, in enumerating his various schemes, carefully left out of his calculation altogether. The right hon. Gentleman said, in enumerating these schemes, that he does not shut the door upon any one of them. I wish that the right hon. Gentleman or someone on that Front Bench who will follow at a later stage of the Debate would tell us whether the door is shut or open as regards the scheme to which I am referring—the one which has been put forward from this side of the House, and which he has not mentioned. The only other scheme to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, and into which, very naturally, he went in greater detail, was the one most recently put forward by the Prime Minister. With regard to those suggestions, the right hon. Gentleman repeated, not quite in the same emphatic terms, but he did repeat the argument which the Prime Minister has often advanced, that that proposal is to some extent a more favourable one from the Ulster point of view than the proposal of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. We have heard the Prime Minister, with his very great dialectic skill, put the point in this sort of way to my right hon. Friend. He said, "The right hon. Gentleman wants one election for Ulster. We are willing to give him two"; and that has been repeated over and over again, and has been repeated, at all events, by implication this afternoon.

That is not a fair way of putting it. It may be a skilful dialectic way of putting it. but it is not fair, because the proposal which my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition put forward is not one election, as opposed to two, but one election now, as opposed to two or three or half-a-dozen elections in the distant future. The point on which we lay stress is that the people should be consulted before the policy is carried through, and it is no answer whatever to say, "We will not give you an election now. We will carry our Bill first, and then give you not merely one, but two elections in the distant future." Several hon. Members on the opposite side of the House have apparently formed the opinion that it is very unreasonable of us to lay stress upon the exclusion, such as it maybe, of Ulster or any part of Ulster, being in any way limited by a time limit. I just want, if I may, as reasonably as I can, to put our side of the question before hon. Gentlemen opposite. Do they, or do they not propose that Ulster—I use the general term—or some parts of Ulster—should be brought into the Home Rule Bill by force and against her will. I can understand the proposition of hon. Members below the Gangway here. They say that if they had their way they would have the whole of Ireland in the Home Rule Bill from the beginning. That is a proposition I can understand. The Prime Minister has made a suggestion in order to meet the objections of Ulster, and it is an attempt, on his part, to apply to Ulster the principle of consent as distinguished from the principle of compulsion.

If, it, may be asked, that is a reasonable proposition to-day, why should it not be equally reasonable six years hence? And what difference does it make from the Government point of view, or even from the Nationalist point of view, if you once grant that Ulster is only to come in by consent? What difference does it make whether the proposition is brought up at some future election in the form of a proposal to continue the exclusion or in the form of a proposal to put the exclusion at an end? It does make a very great difference from the point of view of Ulster, and I will point out to hon. Gentlemen why it does. What we say is, so far as those of us who know Ulster best can judge, that we feel perfectly certain that the opposition of Ulster to Home Rule will be just as strong, just as unconquerable in six years as it is to-day. I know that view is not shared by hon. Members opposite, but it is our view. Considering that Ulster has remained absolutely immovable, not merely for six years in the past, but for over thirty years, at all events we have got all the facts available in support of our contention.

Supposing it is true that Ulster is opposed at the end of six years to coming into the Home Rule Bill; supposing that the Prime Minister's suggestion has taken effect, and that the only way that Ulster can escape being brought in automatically is by getting the judgment of the electors of this country at a General Election six years hence, what would be the result? Do Hon. Members who are familiar with the ways of electioneering and with the general trend of politics, believe that it would be an easy thing for us to get the decision of the electors in this country? I am not putting it from the point of view as to what the opinion of the electorate will be, if we could get it upon that issue alone. The Prime Minister has told us, in opposition to the proposal for a Referendum, that if there were a Referendum—and this is his reason for objecting to it—even in that ad hoc scheme for getting the opinion of the electors you could not isolate this issue, and that the electors would consider what the effect of their answer would be upon the life of the Government. If it is impossible to isolate the issue and get a clear decision upon it, in answer to a Referendum, how much more difficult must it be to get a decision on that isolated issue at a General Election at the end of six years, when the whole Irish question, according to the desire of the hon. Member who has just spoken, has been got out of the way?

If the hon. Gentleman gets his desire, he would have got the whole of the Irish question put out of the way long before the six years. How then is it possible for the Ulster people to get this clear decision from the people of this country as to whether they are to be brought in or not under the Home Rule Bill? I go further, and I agree with the hon. Member that it is desirable, so far as we can, to get this matter out of the way. Therefore, I say, even if it were possible at the end of six years to revive this question, it is exceedingly undesirable. I speak in this House as representing an English constituency, and I have interests as representing my Constituents just as every other hon. Member has, apart from this Irish question, and none of us want to have our time and our attention engrossed during the next six years by this eternal Irish and Ulster question. But, under the proposal of the Prime Minister, we should be obliged to do so. We might, on this side of the House long before the six years elapsed, be discussing such matters as Tariff Reform, and hon. Members opposite might be wanting to discuss the question of Land Reform, and we do not want to he hampered in a General Election six years hence, by the necessity of going to the electors specially, and saying: "You must put those matters as far as you can, although they are interesting to you, into the background of your minds, because we have come now to the period when these unfortunate Ulster people, unless you intervene, will automatically be compelled to be brought into this scheme of Home Rule to which they so ardently object." What is the object of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in putting it in that way? Take the other side, and suppose that the alternative of my right hon. Friend were adopted, and that the exclusion of Ulster, or any part of Ulster, were given them until this Parliament otherwise determine. Surely in that way you are putting it in the form which, according to the opinion of all who know Ulster best, is most in accordance with the tendencies of opinion in Ulster.

lf, on the other hand, the prophecies of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway and opposite come true, and if the example of a Government in Dublin is so alluring to Ulster, and the experience which she undergoes during the six years enables her to change her mind and say that things have turned out quite differently to what we expected, and that we see the prosperity of the other three provinces, and that we now understand the inconvenience of division between North and South; if any such consideration as that came forward, and Ulster, through her representatives, gave the smallest indication that she was anxious to terminate the exclusion and to come into the Parliament of Dublin, would there be the smallest difficulty in getting it done? It would not upset politics in this country in the smallest degree. You would not require to get a decision from the people of this country on that issue alone. Hon. Gentlemen opposite would be only too delighted to see the consummation of their own policy, and there is no one belonging to the party on this side who would for a moment be able to raise an objection to it, if the demand came from Ulster herself. Consequently, it appears to me that of the two schemes the way in which it is proposed from this side of the House is not only fairest to Ulster, but the only one calculated to carry out the principles which the Prime Minister himself has at heart, if he is desiring to give effect to the principle of consent as against the principle of compulsion. But also it would be infinitely the less disturbing to politics in this country, and would do much more to carry out the desire of the hon. Member opposite in getting the question out of the way. Therefore, I say, that that is the right way to do it if there is to be a carrying out of this suggestion of the Prime Minister. So far as I am able to represent the opinions held in Ulster I will say this, that they think it so important that it should be put in that way, and they are so convinced that no matter what the position may be at the end of six years, and no matter how unconquerable their dislike of coming in, with all their experience, which they believe, and I believe, instead of over coming their reluctance, will increase it,—so convinced are they that greater difficulties would be put in their way at the end of six years that I do not believe, so far as the Ulster people are concerned, if it were left to them they would for one moment consent to the proposition put forward by the Prime Minister if it is necessarily coupled with that time limit.

There is only one thing more I want to say, and it is this: I must say that during these Debates I have often been compelled to wonder why it is that hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway opposite are so hostile to the point of view of Ulster. The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has boasted of their independence of the Government. I am not now going to enter into any examination of the statements that he made with regard to their votes in the Lobby on certain occasions. It might be suggested that the reason why they were in opposition to the Government on those occasions was precisely because they knew that hon. Gentlemen on this side below the Gangway would be likely to vote with the Government, and that if it had not been for that knowledge they might have voted in a different way. I am willing for the moment to assume that the party below the Gangway opposite are an absolutely independent party, altogether free from the control of the Government. If that is so, why is it that those hon. Members there are so hostile to the Ulster point of view? The Ulster point of view is a Labour point of view. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Well, is it not? Is it an aristocratic point of view? One would imagine from the speech that was made by the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. J. Ward) the other day in another connection, that the 100,000 volunteers, for example, in Ulster were all aristocrats. On other occasions, when it suits the argument of hon. Members opposite, from the Chancellor of the Exchequer downwards, we are constantly told what a small and inconsiderable portion of the population are the aristocrats and wealthy people, and yet, according to the implied argument of the hon. Member for Stoke, the 100,000 men who are, as it is now admitted, seen in arms, or, at all events, in military array in Ulster, are all aristocrats or millionaires, or both. The hon. Member, when speaking in the Army Debates, drew a distinction between asking the Army to go and fire upon Ulstermen and asking them to fire upon men of their own class, and I wondered when he made that speech whether he supposed that a battle squadron had been brought from the Mediterranean, and troops moved to strategic points on the borders of Ulster and ammunition imported, all to kill the Duke of Abercorn and Lord Londonderry.

Why, the fact of the matter is, and the hon. Member knows it perfectly well, that if the soldiers, and please God it will never happen, had to be sent to shoot down men in Ulster, then, whatever their political opinions may be, at all events they would have to shoot to use the hon. Member's own phrase, "men of their own class." Of the men who are in the Ulster Volunteers—and I am not now professing to give exact statistics—I should say, of the 100,000 men, at least 85 per cent. are working men, and from 60 to 70 per cent. are trade unionists. Besides, everybody who knows a population of the kind knows that a great population of a province like Ulster, headed by a city with a population of 400,000, must be in the main a working-class population. Therefore, the Ulster point of view, whether it is right or wrong, is, at all events, in the main a working-class movement. The supporters of hon. Members below the Gangway on this side are much more agricultural than industrial. It is one of the points of cleavage between the two parties in Ireland that one is in the main, or very largely, agricultural, and the other is very largely industrial. Under those circumstances it is most difficult for me to understand how hon. Members opposite, who are always to the best of their ability putting forward the point of view of the working classes in different parts of the country, the moment they come to the great industrial democracy of Belfast and the neighbourhood, allow their sympathies to go right away, and they will have nothing to say to the Ulster working men, and they even clamour for their blood. We have heard during the last few days, in the discussion of Army questions. hon. Members below the Gangway opposite call attention to the antithesis or distinction which they think they see between the Army being used in Ulster and the Army being used in the case of industrial strikes. They think there is a parallel between the two.

I could understand that if the attitude of hon. Members was this: If they said we have always objected to the use of troops to quell either riot or disturbance, or to interfere in industrial disputes, and consequently we object ten thousand times more to its being done in Ulster. That would be a consistent position, but that is not what they say. On the contrary, they say while we have always objected to working men, whether at Featherstone or Tonypandy, being coerced by the military, the moment we get a movement of the kind in Belfast, because it does not happen to be a movement for the increase of wages or for the shortening of hours, or, in other words, because it is not a purely materialistic movement, the moment we get a movement supported by very large masses of the working classes, but which, at all events, has an element of idealism in it, however mistaken it may be, then hon. Members opposite say, "Our principles about the military—let them go to the winds! Send your troops, send your Artillery, and tell the right hon. Gentleman to shoot them down!" [HON. MEMBERS: "No, No!"] The hon. Member for Derby (Mr. J. H. Thomas) shakes his head. The hon. Member for Derby, if I recollect aright, made a speech the other day in which he suggested, as a sort of counter move to Ulster, that he might be prepared to form an army of 200,000 railway workers, or something of that sort.

I am sure the hon. Member does not want to misrepresent it. We did protest, and do protest, against the military being sent out in case of trade disputes. You apparently agree with that, and we object to making preferential treatment now in Ulster when in trade disputes you agree that the military should he sent.

7.0 P.M.

I do not see that I have in any way misrepresented the views of the hon. Member. All I am saying is that they might be consistent by objecting to the use of troops on either occasion. I have not said for a moment—and I do not agree—that there is the close analogy which hon. Members opposite seem to think there is between the two cases. All I am saying is that the hon. Member spoke of the formation of an army of railway workers as a sort of antithesis or complement to the Ulster movement. Does he know that there are large numbers of his own union—the Railway Union—engaged in the Ulster Volunteers? Does he think that the army which he proposes to form for industrial purposes are likely to put in the amount of self-sacrificing work that the Ulster Volunteers have done in order to secure such efficiency as they possess? If the hon. Member can get for any object, 100,000 or 200.000 men to give the greater part of their leisure time during two years, often walking many miles after their hard day's work, to put in an hour's drill in order to secure a certain amount of efficiency, he will have an army with such a spirit for their cause in them as will make them practically unconquerable, as I believe the Ulster Volunteers are to-day. That is the true question. It is not a mere question whether or not you bring troops to bear down a certain portion of the population. You have to look at the spirit of the population as evidenced by the amount of self-sacrifice and devotion which they give to their cause. All I wish to emphasise is that on the question of principle, and apart from the mere party point of view, the movement of the people of Ulster, being so largely a democratic and industrial movement, ought to receive a little more sympathy than it has ever yet received from hon. Members below the Gangway.

I wish to say one word in conclusion with regard to the very grave passage in the concluding portion of the Secretary of State's speech. We all recognise the extreme gravity of the situation to which the right hon. Gentleman was referring. Certainly I do not intend to say a single word which would inflame feeling or revive discussion upon that matter. There is only this to be said in reference to the charges made against us of incitement, of seducing the Army, and so forth. I can, with a perfectly clear conscience, say that, at all events, I myself have so far kept clear of any such sin. I would, however, say this. It is a little difficult to choose your words so accurately and so precisely that you can blame the Government for using the military in certain eventualities, and at the same time avoid expressing yourself in such a way as to appear to be inducing the Army to disobey orders. I think that we all endeavour conscientiously to steer that course. I certainly do. I would not for the world say a single syllable, either in this House or out of it, and I do not think that any of the Ulster representatives have done so either, which might be construed as an incitement to any soldier not to do his duty. At the same time, I will not shrink, either here of elsewhere, from impressing so far as I can upon any people whom I address in the country that it would be an iniquitous thing if the Government, who are responsible for the use of the Army, chose to use it to coerce the people of Ulster.

We have had very conflicting statements upon this point from responsible Ministers of the Crown. I hope that before this Debate closes we shall have some more definite statement. The right hon. Gentleman has told us to-day, in no uncertain words, that it is the intention of the Government—and I do not deny that it is within their rights—to use the forces of the Crown to force Home Rule upon Ulster. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I am perfectly aware that you can put these things in different ways. But let us get behind dialectics and down to realities. It is perfectly easy to talk about restricting your use of force to the prevention of disorder and violence, and to the protection of life and property. It is quite easy for the right hon. Gentleman to put a case: "Supposing the suggested provisional Government does so-and-so, or so-and-so, in carrying out its intention to take over the Government of the province, only in such an event will we use force, and under those circumstances we shall use force." That is the way the right hon. Gentleman put it. But it is just as true to say—and this is the way I interpret it, and the men of Ulster will interpret it, and the largest political party in England will interpret it—that what the right hon. Gentleman meant was: "We will coerce Ulster into accepting Home Rule." What I want to know is: Which is true, the statement made this afternoon by the right hon. Gentleman, following a similar statement made last night by the Attorney-General, or the equally clear and explicit statement to the contrary effect made a short time ago by the Lord Chancellor, who definitely said in so many words, "We will not issue orders for the coercion of Ulster"? I do not deny, nor will any Ulsterman deny, that if the Government choose to adopt that policy, they have the legal right to do so. But at all events let us know where we are; because I am perfectly certain that if the infamy threatened by the Attorney-General and by the right hon. Gentleman is the real intention of the Government, we shall have the people of this country with us in preventing the Government from carrying it out.

My only regret is that the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. R. M'Neill) did not sit down five minutes earlier. Up to that point, I listened to his speech with rapt admiration, and there was hardly anything in it to which I could take exception. But when he proceeded to throw petroleum upon the flames, one is a little doubtful about any reasonable compromise being arrived at. I am quite sure that the whole country is absolutely unanimous on this question of the Army. It is no use going into that for the purpose of making bad blood. My one object is to try to reduce the temperature to the lowest possible level, because at its present height it is disastrous, both from the point of view of the country and from the point of view of this House. The contention of the hon. Gentleman with regard to the exclusion of Ulster was, if it is good now, why is it not good six years hence? I will tell him shortly. It is because all during that period, tension will remain just as strong and bitter as it is at the present time. The Liberal party are pledged up to the hilt, so to speak, to two things. The first is to set up a Parliament in Dublin, which is merely a forerunner to setting up Parliaments elsewhere throughout the Kingdom. We in Scotland and Wales have very strong views upon that subject. It is, therefore, only right that we should take all the advantage we can, I think not unfairly, out of the present situation. I hope my hon. Friends in the Nationalist party will thoroughly understand that on this question we are as absolutely loyal to them as we are to our own leaders. We recognise to the fullest extent the pledges they have received. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I did not expect that cheer, and it seems to me that I do not deserve it. The pledges that have been given to the Irish Nationalists with regard to setting up a Parliament in Dublin are absolutely binding on all the followers of the Government.

We simply say—and I am speaking for others who share my views—that forthwith Irishmen are entitled to the Bill practically as it stands, subject to the suggestions of the Prime Minister with reference to the exclusion of certain areas. In the meantime a commission should be set up—as soon as the Government are able to get their men together. Seeing that we have at our disposal on this side such men as Lord Bryce and Sir West Ridgeway, men of great experience and moderation, and on the other side there are men as of the type of Sir Horace Plunkett, it would be very easy indeed to set up such a commission as would command universal respect on both sides of the House. To that commission should be entrusted the immediate duty of endeavouring to ascertain the best method of setting up different Parliaments in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England. The First Lord of the Admiralty has already foreshadowed some scheme of that sort, but many of us have been urging the question for years past, especially those of us who have resided in and understand affairs in the Colonies. There was a speech made the other day with reference to what the Colonies are saying on another question, which I hope has now passed by. I say that on this question of self-government and federation, the Dominions are looking to the House of Commons with very anxious eyes. They have solved the problem for themselves; the system gives them no trouble; it causes no friction, and they cannot see why on earth the problem should not be solved in this country also. It is not simply that the people want this change; it is absolutely necessary. Our object is not to say one single word that might create ill-feeling on the other side. We want, if possible, to lower the temperature. I, for one, have never entered into any hostile criticism in regard to Ulster. I fully recognise the feelings of Ulster in this matter. I have seen a great many Ulstermen, not so much in this country as in other lands. I know it is true of Ulstermen, as it is true of many men who come from that part of Ireland, that many of them would sooner fight than not fight—in a cause which they believed to be just!—and would sooner die than not die, so long as they died fighting. That does not prevent some of us feeling that the Ulstermen have got a very good case. They have lived long under the protection of the British Empire. The scheme that we put forth, namely, that within the next six years a statutory Commission should be established which would bring Ulster within the federal system, along with Scotland, England, and other places, would do away with a very practical grievance which she has got at the present moment. Such a scheme fully endorses the proposition which has been made by several hon. Members to-night. Ulster under such a scheme would be absolutely secure. There would be no fear of any demand to alter her religion. There would be no fear even that any demand would be made to give Ireland anything more than the self-government to which she is entitled. Under such a scheme it would be found that peace and harmony would prevail in that country.

Unfortunately it is only too well known that the trouble of Ireland is not economic. It is not the difference of war, of class and class, but a question of religion against religion. On that subject we get on to extremely ticklish ground. Any person at- tempting to argue that out would only be a fool for his pains. It was said a good many years ago by an old man giving advice to his pupils that as they went out into the world they would find many men who would try to turn them from their convictions. "Do not argue with them," said the old philosopher, "simply hit them straight over the head." The religious question is the one question which it is absolutely useless to argue. Religious convictions are deep-seated in the minds of people. But what we say is that the religious sentiments of the Ulster people will be thoroughly preserved. I do not believe that any Ulsterman present doubts for a moment the good faith of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Waterford, or of those with whom he is associated. They know perfectly well that under no possible circumstances would any hon. Member who represents the Nationalist party do anything dishonourable or hurtful to the Ulster people? At the same time we do not know what is coining after. Nor do they! Therefore it is that we strongly support the proposal that has been made, namely, for a statutory Commission to be set up forthwith so that within the six years Federal Government should be established in this country. What our Colonies have done within a very short period—in some cases a very hurried period of months—surely this country can do within the next six years! Then the question will have been set duly at rest for now and all time.

There is only one question more to which I wish to direct the attention of the Government and the House—that is the way in which the areas in Ulster are to be selected. A great deal has been said for and against the Referendum. I was very glad to hear a number of hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House speak strongly against the Referendum. It is no possible way to find out the true opinions of the people. If we take the proposals which have been made, on high authority I admit, that we shall refer this question practically by Referendum to the people in certain areas of North-East Ulster, I say that, in many ways, it would be a most objectionable method of doing it. It would be infinitely better for the Government to arrange with an hon. Member on behalf of the Opposition with the hon. and learned Member for Waterford, and others—

The principle, so far as I understand it, is this: That by a bare majority vote of the counties those counties may remain out of the operation of the Bill for six years.

What I want to know is, when the hon. Member says that the areas should be selected by certain hon. Members in consultation, has he present in his mind any idea of the principle on which they could go?

The idea in my mind is that it would be an infinitely less dangerous proceeding to try to find out the thing in the way I suggest. Surely you can find out by a scheme of this sort what is the general opinion. It is common talk as to what counties would go under the operation of the Bill, and what would not. Of course if it is contended by hon. Gentlemen opposite that it would be impossible to exclude any part, my argument falls to the ground. But there are certain areas in Ulster which I think by common agreement might be fairly excluded, and I would let those areas be excluded until the six years are over. If you have a Referendum or a popular vote in the matter, you will have riot and bloodshed, and the consequences will be extremely disastrous. I may be wrong on this point, and the hon. Member may be right, that there are no areas in Ulster which will come in. What I say is that the hon. Member for Waterford and the hon. Member who has just sat down, in consultation upon this question might fix such areas as may be readily excluded under the Bill. It would be a very serious matter if you had those areas in the counties going one way or the other by a small majority. Just imagine the confusion that would exist? It would be intolerable. I therefore recommend to all parties in the House the proposals that I make.

On this side of the House, and in all parts of the House, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen should hail with satisfaction a conciliatory speech such as that which has just been made by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. C. Wason). Some of us have sat for many years in this House with the hon. Member. I have had that honour myself. In the speech of the hon. Member, and in many of the speeches which we have heard to-night, Mr. Speaker, a strange and new note has been struck. I entertain some doubt as to the practicability of much of the present proceedings. I rejoice in the benevolence and kindly spirit which has actuated those speeches. I am sure hon. Members will believe that the words they have addressed to the House find a sympathetic echo on this side of the House, and in the hearts of most, if not all of us. But I cannot help observing that between the practical business which is before the House, and the kindly, generous and patriotic observations which have been addressed to the House by irresponsible Members—irresponsible as I myself am in these matters, except for my responsibility to the country, my Constituents, and my conscience—between the great, grave business before the House, and that body of observations which we have heard tonight, there is a great gulf fixed, we have heard nothing from hon. Members below the Gangway, not even a cheer.

I sincerely trust that the hon. Member for East Mayo will not think that I am presuming to address a criticism much less a taunt, to hon. Members below the Gangway who sit here to-night in a more responsible and difficult position than any of us. That is the spirit in which I approach this matter, and it is a significant fact that, except one or two careful questions from the hon. Member for East Mayo, the body of Gentlemen who have sat there and listened to the criticisms upon the proposal of His Majesty's Government have been singularly silent. So long as their silence continues, I can only assume that the sailing orders of the present time are full steam ahead. That really is the position in which we stand. We must, if I may respectfully say so to the House—deal with this as a practical matter. We are upon a Motion for the Second Reading of this Bill. In what circumstances does the country arrive at this situation? The country is in a predicament more calculated to rejoice the hearts of its enemies than any predicament in which it has been placed for two and a half centuries. This Debate, which during the past two months has reached a pitch of such deadly rancour, in spite of the speeches which we have heard to-night. is the fruition of a course of policy which has wrecked our Constitution, and which has given us here, on the floor of this House, within the last few days, demonstration of two terrible facts—the new relation of His Majesty's Government to the forces of the Crown, and the new relation of the forces of the Crown to His Majesty's Government—and a fact still more lamentable—though I hope it has a cheerful answer—the fact that one or two speeches were addressed last week to a topic which by the common consent of Parliament has been, upon the grounds of public safety, excluded for generations, if not for centuries, from our Debates.

That is part of the position in which we stand. What did the Prime Minister tell us only two or three weeks ago in regard to the meaning of this Motion for the Second Reading of this Bill? He said if the Bill passes in its present form, it means civil discord, and it may be civil strife—that is civil war—in Ulster. if the Bill does not pass in its present form, it means as acute a difficulty in the South of Ireland—and the Motion before the House is that the Bill shall pass in its present form. I add one fact more to that rehearsal of facts which I desire to have present, in my own mind while we discuss this question of whether it is possible for us in this extreme hour of the controversy into which we have come to arrive at an honourable and amicable settlement in which we can include hon. Members below the Gangway. The other fact is this, that so grave is the situation in regard to public defence—I think, so far as we know, the foreign horizon is singularly clear—that it has devolved upon one statesman, the Prime Minister of this country, to take upon himself the burden of directing public defence, and to assume, as the right hon. Gentleman said last night, the office of Secretary of State for War. I ask myself, with regard to this assumption of office, which is avowedly a temporary assumption, what war? Why, Mr. Speaker, civil war! That is the position that sums up the situation in which we stand, and, to my mind, although it is a precious thing in the public interests, in my view, that hon. Member should have the courage of their convictions, as I hope we have on this side of the House, and lay before the Government the alternative proposition, which I could have wished for my own part could have been discussed in a free convention before we proposed to reorganise the whole Constitution of the realm—although it is a precious thing in my respectful view to have this declaration made quite clear, we have got to see to what that brings us.

Let us look at realities. Ulster is a reality; I mean Ulster in the political sense. England and Scotland created Ulster, and settled in Ulster that Protestant population which built up the prosperity of the North-East of Ireland—that Protestant population whose descendants new declare their determination, even by force of arms, if needs be, not to be put out of the Constitution under which they were born. At any rate, Ulster is a visible, potent, practical fact. One cannot disguise from one's mind, and it would be idle and foolish to disguise the fact, that a population so divided by race, by religion, by tradition, by ambition, by the hopes of its daily life, from what one may call the population sprung from the native stock of Ireland—and I am drawing no distinction in favour of the one or the other—is there as a great practical fact, for which this Parliament is responsible, and, to my mind, the answer to the hon. Member for East Manchester, when he said in his airy way, if they will not take Home Rule, we will give it them, is this: that we created the position in which they stand, that they have inherited with us, Under the decree of this Parliament, the constitutional rights under which we live, that these constitutional rights are not others to take away, although they may be the right of the men of Ulster to surrender. And there is another practical fast. A great body of men—mere food for powder in the military sense I often fear that probably they are—if this matter goes to the arbitrament of force, I do not know to what extent earnestness and devotion may make up for equipment and skill—but a great body of men whom my hon. Friend the Member for St. Augustine (Mr. Ronald M'Neill) described by tradition, steadfastness, and confidence in an unselfish leader, have asserted and established their right to have their views heard in this House. Ulster, like the rest of Ireland during these troublesome times, during, at any rate, thirty years, Ulster, in the political sense, has by its steadfast vote declared its determination against what is called Home Rule. [HON. MEMBERS "No, no!"] I know to what hon. Members refer. I know there are Ulster Members who sit below the Gangway.

I know that the hon. and learned Member quite accurately claims that there is a large area in the province of Ulster which they represent, but it does not diminish the political difficulty of the case in the rest of Ulster, because the rights of free citizens in a free country are individual rights, and it is the pride and duty of men who rejoice in liberty to respect the liberty of their fellow countrymen. That is the position in regard to what we call Ulster, perhaps inaccurately. What is the position with regard to the South of Ireland? I am satisfied it has impressed the minds of our countrymen within my own knowledge for thirty years, which I can remember in this House, that a body of men who have not all of them taken a great or conspicuous part in the Debates of this House, who have not, most of them, been active in public affairs, but during all that time, that a body of men has been here, declaring in the presence of the whole United Kingdom the determination of their constituents if they could by force, if not by other means, to have what is called Home Rule. That is the second great potent fact, and we have got to deal with that, and I do not disregard it. There is another potent, hard fact, and that is, that the majority of the people in England, as represented by their Members in this House, are opposed to this Bill. You may discriminate, you may reckon up the polls and get a distinction in some minute degree, but having regard to the constitutional principle of representation, this Bill is persisted in against the wishes of the majority of the people in England.

The hon. Member does not mean to disconcert me, and he does not, by suggesting to me that this is a separatist view. I have often had that said to me, but the history of this connection of Ireland with the United Kingdom is over four-fifths a history of English connection. It was an English king who became Lord of Ireland. It was a series of English kings and the English Protectorate that made Ireland what she was down to the end of the eighteenth century. Whether for good or ill, those were the acts of the English people, and England is entitled to-day to be the predominant partner if there is a question of predominance in our Union. I do not desire to set up the question of predominance or of race against race, only I ask hon. Members to remember, and I ask His Majesty's Government to remember now and then the representatives of a considerable majority of the people of England cast their votes steadily against this Bill. There is one other thing. When this House met at the beginning of 1911, the majority which His Majesty's Government commanded, including all classes of its supporters, all its co-allies, was a majority of one in thirty-one of the people. Is there any orderly social body in which you would say that sixteen men -upon a question of vital consequence, upon a question which moves passion and affects freedom, were entitled ruthlessly to overbear the will of fifteen men? That is not the principle upon which our Government proceeded in the past, and I see in the readiness which we have had to go on and harass and to make the will of a bare majority prevail by every political and constitutional device that which brings us to the deplorable predicament to which we have been brought. I do not say it by way of reproach. I trust I am not thought to be reproaching anybody, because I desire to echo in a practical way the conciliatory view expressed from the other side.

What is the next practical fact? The next practical fact is that the Bill in its present form is not compatible with any scheme of federation. I do not intend to elaborate that. I point out to the House why on the face of it, to any student of constitutional law, this Bill is not compatible with federation. It is a Bill which confers powers inherent in the prerogative of the Crown to a Legislature composed of King, Senate, and People in a separate island, and you cannot take part of the prerogative of the Crown and bestow it somewhere without bestowing sovereignty. What are the parts of the ancient prerogative of the Crown?—a very excellent matter to observe when you come to a question of constitutional law, because our forefathers worked out this question with strife, and even bloodshed. There is the prerogative of the judiciary. If this Government had not included in the powers proposed to be granted to thy Legislature at Dublin, the exercise of justice in Ulster, I believe it would have found its way easy compared with the way it has had to travel, but the judiciary is given to the new sovereignty of King, Senate, and people in Dublin. The Customs and Excise is another branch of the prerogative of the Crown, as I say in the presence of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General, and that is being transferred to the new sovereignty; and there is another branch of what, oddly enough, I do not think springs from the ancient constitutional privilege, but it is also a branch of the prerogative of the Crown—the Post Office. These three things, about which the question of the Royal prerogative has been discussed over and over again, are lightly transferred as part of the bargain—and I am not at the moment criticising the effect of the bargain between His Majesty's Government and the Nationalist majority in Ireland—for securing, as it is thought, the peace of the South of Ireland. That is not compatible with the federal system.

When you have a federal system, you do not split up sovereignty; so you have before you two courses. You may amend your Bill, so as to make it compatible with the federal system to lead the way to those ambitions of hon. Members opposite, in which I confess for many years I have had a sneaking sympathy, and in which I do think at the present time we may find a road of release out of the plight in which we are placed. The road to federalism is blocked if you endow one of the constituent races of the United Kingdom with the attributes of sovereignty, because you cannot take that away; so this Bill, in its present form, is not consistent with the federal idea. What is the next position? It is said His Majesty's Government has made proposals to exclude Ulster. His Majesty's Government has made no proposal to exclude Ulster. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member of Trinity College said quite accurately that in the case of Ulster His Majesty's Government is willing to postpone execution of its decree for six years. That is the true position with regard to Ulster. Ulster is to be brought in automatically at the end of the six years, unless a miracle happens. She is to be brought under the control of a Parliament which for reasons we well know at present she detests; she is to be brought in under the control of the Parliament which can never be a Federal Parliament. That to my mind, shows the impossibility of the position in which we stand, until two things have happened—first of all, until hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway have held out the olive branch to Members from Ireland above the Gangway, and to their fellow countrymen in Ireland—they may reject it, but we would prefer to hear what they say—to hold out the olive branch to their fellow countrymen in Ulster saying this: We are ready to take you at your word. Stand out until you are willing to come in. My right hon. Friend the Member for Trinity College used an expression quite recently as a challenge to the hon. and learned Member for Waterford to win us. How is it that hon. Members below the Gangway are afraid that they cannot win Ulster? Is it because the gulf between Ulster and the South is so deep and their characteristics so different that years of careful administration and years of devotion will not prevail upon the stubborn mind of Ulster. Is that what hon. Members fear? If hon. Members are confident of the success of this scheme it cannot fail to win Ulster. The men of Ulster are not less practical than the men of the South of Ireland. It is quite true that they do not dream the same dream. They do not see those visions, visions of the almost fabled past and of the glorious independent future which hon. Members below the Gangway see, but they are practical men. How is it, if that is the fact, that hon. Members below the Gangway cannot say to the men of Ulster, "We are fellow countrymen, and we will not see you shot down for the sake of an ideal unity, which is a real disruption. Look on, See how we shall succeed. There will be peace in Ireland for the first time for centuries under our rule, and there will be the absence of the resentment of Saxon tyranny, and see how we will thrive."

But that is not the voice that comes from below the Gangway. Although this is a Bill the passing of which in its present form means civil war in Ulster, or in the South—I say this upon the authority of the Prime Minister—the sailing orders from below the Gangway at the present time are "Full steam ahead." The first thing which the country requires, and which I am sure this House must have, if it is going to arrive at a settlement, is a general declaration on the part of hon. Members representing the Unionist sentiment of Ireland that they are willing to run a risk in this matter, that they are willing to meet their Irish brethren, as I hope they sometimes may be. We English Members have no interest in their perennial quarrels, but we see them here two bitterly hostile factions, and, for my part, I could not consent to put either of those bodies under the government of the other, and I never will consent to do that. I confess that I cannot withhold my assent from the declaration of my Leader, that if the question comes to be the subjecting of North-East Ireland to the South of Ireland against its will, and, as we think, in an unconstitutional way, without the consent of our countrymen, I should feel bound to extend my sympathy to the people of North-East Ireland. There is no necessity for giving either of these sections of Irish opinion a triumph over the other, and subjecting the other to the humiliation of defeat. I beg hon. Members below the Gangway to consider the situation. They have struggled in this House, and I have enjoyed personally their acquaintance—and I have some little measure of personal esteem for several of them—during more than thirty years, almost during the time some of the senior Members of that party have been Members of this House. I make this appeal to them, that unless they are reasonable and generous in this matter there can be no settlement by consent, and there will be no settlement by consent if what is insisted upon is the close of this transaction which gives a triumph to the Nationalist Members or the Ulstermen, any more than there is a possibility of a settlement by consent upon the close of a transaction which would give a triumph to the Ulstermen over their Nationalist fellow countrymen. That is why I ask hon. Members to look at the realities of this case.

It is no use talking of peace if there is no peace there, and it is no use talking of peace if there is no peace here. This sacrifice, if we of the Unionist party come to it, will be risking in many cases our political existence, and it is a supreme sacrifice for the peace of Ireland. The Prime Minister has assumed the office of the Secretary of State for War, and we have now come to the Second Reading of a Bill which, if it does not put Ulster in flames, will be the signal for an outbreak in the South. We cannot ensure peace in this way. You have, first of all, to have His Majesty's Government released from whatever obligation there is which prevents theta acceding to the wish, so manifestly displayed from the back benches on both sides of the House, to have a fair, generous, and amicable settlement of this matter. That ought to he possible. One has felt almost ashamed of politics when one realises that the conflict of parties in this House was the great barrier to the settlement of a dispute in Ireland which may drench one or another part of Ireland in blood. At this time of crisis, when the country is realising that some of its dearest possessions have gone, and others are at stake, His Majesty's Govern- ment offers to Ulster an illusory exclusion from this Bill for six years, so that Ulster may automatically come in, when the storm has passed by, and the mind of England is occupied with other matters. Below the Gangway there is a silent insistence upon the strict terms of whatever compact there may be, but the compact, so far as we know it, was represented by the Motion intended to be persevered with unless somebody gives way to an extent which is not anticipated, "That this Bill be read a second time," with a view to taking effect under the Parliament Act.

I wish to say a word or two upon the specific and conciliatory speech of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. In spite of our political differences, there is amongst all of us a degree of liking for the right hon. Gentleman, and almost unwillingly sometimes a feeling of confidence and sentiment which singles him out in this House. He said some remarkable things. He spoke of the Referendum, and he said it will not do. None of us have any very great affection for a Referendum, and I do not believe in it as an instrument of party Government. If you have a Referendum you may have a recall. The Referendum has been proposed as a dangerous way out of a still more dangerous situation, and not because those with whom I act in politics are fond of newfangled proceedings of that kind. It has, however, been dismissed, and the Government say they will not entertain it, because they do not think the people will vote. If that is the view of the Government, I fail to see how they can justify the transaction of the last eight years. The Referendum is out of the way, and what is the next proposition? The right hon. Gentleman declared that if you make the transaction a fair one, he would be disposed to accept the passage of this Bill and its suspension, so that the Bill could not come into operation until the people had passed judgment upon it. That is the answer to an observation which I made, as to the slightness of the majority generally in support of these proposals, and as to the antipathy of English representation. If this Bill can be put to the people of this country, and they insist upon it with Ulster or without Ulster, to my mind, whatever may be the duty of an Ulsterman in that situation, the duty of an Englishman is to submit. Deeply as I should regret such a decision, if the thing were put in that way, just as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has said, in my humble way I should submit, and I should not feel myself warranted in taking any step which would encourage the springing up of any kind of civil strife in Ulster.

We are in this position, that in our belief this Bill certainly does not command the confidence or the assent of the people of this country. If the right hon. Gentleman, in the conciliatory part of his speech, intended to convey to the House that the Government was ready to take the Bill as one to come into effect subject to the sanction of the constituencies, then I say, although I have no mandate from anybody to say it, I think that is a wise and statesmanlike course, and I should find great difficulty, no matter what party pressure was brought to bear, in voting against any proposals with that object. The right hon. Gentleman made it clear to the House that if this Bill passed in its present form, with our knowledge of its effects, and if it comes into operation without a General Election, then His Majesty's Government, under the name of the maintenance of law and order, will mass in Ulster such force, and will direct upon Ulster such force, as shall wipe out the opposition of Ulster.

8.0 P.M.

That is what I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say, and other hon. Members so understood him. I do not think what I have said will be denied from the other side of the House. Against such a policy as that we shall stand by every means in our power. We believe that if you are going to the country to demand sanction for wiping out the opposition of Ulster by a tremendous display of Imperial force, the country will rally to the cause of freedom and to the cause of an oppressed people, as it has rallied to the cause of freedom and against oppression in many distant lands. In that event, I do not despair that we may yet save Ireland from that disaster for which it is heading straight. We are going forward toward the passage under the Parliament Act of a Bill which does not command even a grudging assent in its present form from masses of moderate men on that side, does not command any assent from people on this side, does not command the assent of the majority of the constituents in England, but has, it is said, the assent of a bare majority of the electors of the United Kingdom. If his Majesty's Government is going on upon that course, I do not despair of the success of some constitutional principles, but I trust they will not do that, and I trust that at some early hour we may hear from a representative of the Nationalist party in this Debate, in which there has been frank speaking and dispassionate and respectful speaking, whether they are ready to come into this scheme of conciliation and to offer to Ulster the slender but generous concession upon which as it seems to me the peace of this country and, it may be, its future existence will depend.

I think the House as a whole will probably appreciate the force and the sincerity and the desire for peace which were manifested in the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just sat down. I thought, however, that at the close of his remarks he referred to the statement of the Foreign Secretary in a way which hardly did it justice. He represented the Foreign Secretary and in this he was only following the hon. Member for the St. Augustine's Division (Mr. Ronald M'Neill)—as threatening to put down the political resistance of Ulster to the Home Rule Bill by massing great Imperial forces in Ulster.

I do not want that there should be any misunderstanding, especially as I see that the Foreign Secretary is now present. I said that I understood from the right hon. Gentleman that if this Bill passes under the Parliament Act, and without any assent of a subsequent General Election when the Bill has become law under the Parliament Act, and if the maintenance of law and order—that is the maintenance of that law—requires the use of force in Ireland, all the forces of the Crown will be available to enforce that law.

What I said will be on record to-morrow morning, and I do not know that I can repeat the exact words I used. Therefore, I stand by whatever I did say, but what I intended to say was this: After the Bill was upon the Statute Book there must be, I assumed, about a year before it came into operation. In that interval, if force was used, it could only be because there was disorder in Ulster, or a movement in Ulster directed, not to resist the Dublin Parliament and Executive, which would not yet have come into existence, but to resist the Imperial Government, and in that case, of course, force must be used to maintain the Government. Then I also said that, as under the Parliament Act there must be an election every five years, force to compel Ulster to submit to the operation of the Bill—that is to say, to compel Ulster to submit to a Dublin Parliament and a Dublin Executive, which could not come into existence until a year after the Bill passed—could not, I thought, be used until after an election had taken place.

I do not think that there is much difference between the right hon. Gentleman and myself. I understand the right hon. Gentleman's doctrine to be that when this Bill has become law the forces of the Crown must be used to whatever extent is necessary to secure the enforcement of this Bill.

There is no question of securing the enforcement of the Bill until it comes into operation. There must be an interval of a year. Force used during that interval is force used, not to maintain a Bill on the Statute Book which is not yet in operation, but to maintain the existing authority of the Imperial Government.

I did think that the remark of the hon. Member seriously misrepresented the attitude of the Foreign Secretary, but I do not wish to raise controversial questions in a Debate which has, I think, held out more hopes of the two parties coming together on this matter than any previous Debate we have heard. I myself have been an advocate of a compromise. I have in my own Division, not only during the last twelve months, but before that, advocated a compromise on this question of Home Rule and the extreme advisability of a settlement by consent, but I am sorry to say that my remarks were generally addressed to silent meetings and to disapproving supporters, because I can assure hon. Members opposite that any concessions that are made upon this side are made by the Government and their supporters with great difficulty, and generally in the face of the opposition of our supporters in the constituencies. We have made some sacrifices in order to make an approach towards a settlement.

And in spite of that I think there is no question that up to now the Government, without much response from the other side, have made serious efforts to effect a settlement. We heard from the Foreign Secretary the three lines on which an attempt towards a settlement have been made. I would just like to say a word about the main line, that suggested by the Prime Minister and brought forward as a concrete proposal. The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) suggested that meant two General Elections fought upon the Irish question only. I do not believe that is so. I believe that those elections would probably not be fought upon the Irish question at all; but I am quite certain that if Ulster had any reason to fear oppression, and if there were any ground for their opposition to their inclusion with the rest of Ireland, then that election would be fought on the question of their inclusion, and I am quite certain that Liberals, as well as Conservatives, would oppose bringing Ulster under the Dublin Parliament, if it had been shown that under Home Rule in working they were going to suffer any damage by doing so.

One more word about this coming in at the end of six years. It means that not only must two General Elections have been held, but that in all human probability Ulster will not finally come under a Dublin Parliament without the consent, not only of the electors, but also of a Conservative Government, because, surely it is hardly possible that we shall have five General Elections running returning Liberal Governments to this House. If hon. Gentlemen opposite are sincere about what they tell us of their confidence in a General Election, then they, at any rate. are certain that Ulster cannot be included without the consent of a Conservative Government. It is not a question of coming in automatically at the end of six years. It is a question of coming in with the consent of the electorate in Great Britain which has seen Home Rule working, and which has seen the Protestants in the rest of Ireland under the rule of a Dublin Parliament. It is as I said before, a question of coming in with the consent of a Conservative Government as well as a Liberal Government. Our complaint is that up to this time all these efforts at a settlement have been met with a blank negative. When the Prime Minister brought forward those proposals, not only were they not accepted, and not only was contempt poured upon them, but no counter offer was made. Nothing was offered from the Front Opposition Bench.

The hon. Member is wrong about that. My right hon. Friend the Member for Trinity College (Sir E. Carson), in the most explicit way, said to the Prime Minister, "Make a proposal to make the inclusion of Ulster conditional upon Ulster's consent, and I will go to Ireland and put it before a Convention." He also said, "Make your proposal with regard to Ireland part of a federal scheme, and I cannot see how anybody could fight against it."

That is quite true as to his asking the Prime Minister to change his offer. It was not only not an acceptance of this offer, but it was not a counter offer. He said to the Prime Minister, "If you change your offer"—not "I accept it"—"I will go down and put it before an Ulster Convention." Not "recommend it" even to an Ulster Convention. He did not accept it himself. He did not promise to accept the other suggestion which the Prime Minister put forward. He did not promise to suggest it to an Ulster Convention as a likely settlement. The Leader of the Opposition offered nothing, but simply suggested to the Prime Minister that he should take a Referendum of the people of the country. We were told by one Ulster Member that the consent of the people of this country would not allay their opposition. We were, therefore, not offered the absence of opposition to the Bill. We were not told that we should do without civil war if the Referendum were in favour of the Government. We were not told that the Leaders of the Opposition would, if the Referendum went in favour of Home Rule, try and make Home Rule work. There was no promise on that side to give anything. They were willing to take everything, but to give nothing. The Referendum itself was to be held not on the question of Horne Rule in the form which the Government approved of it, or of no Home Rule, but it was to be either the Government's utmost concession which they had offered, and which most of us extremely dislike, or the complete loss of the Home Rule Bill. It was a choice of two evils which was offered to us. If we were successful, we were to get nothing. That was the way in which the proposal was met on that bench. Much has been said about the speech of the First Lord of the Admiralty at Bradford. I believe that was a speech towards peace. It has been said you must believe in the good faith of those you are dealing with before coming to any agreement. I agree. But you must also agree as to the sincerity with which they are putting forward their views. The Leader of the Opposition has repeatedly shown that he does not believe the Government dare go on with this Bill. He has continually taunted the Government with not daring to go on with the Bill. As long as that spirit is manifest on the Front Opposition Bench, there is no chance—

It being a Quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put.

Private Business

Fishguard And Rosslare Railways And Harbours Bill—(By Order)

Order for Consideration, as amended, read.

I rise to move, "That the Bill be re-committed to a Select Committee or Private Bill Committee, and on re-committal, that it be an Instruction to the Committee to insert such provisions as shall prevent the directors of the Fish-guard Company, as constituted by Section 89 of The Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Act, 1898, from having their control of the undertakings and affairs of the Company, whether on the English side or the Irish side, abrogated by anything contained in Clause 13 of the agreement comprised in the Seventh Schedule to The Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Act, 1899."

I am afraid the hon. Member must give notice of any Instruction. The course open to the hon. Member now is to move that the Bill be considered this day six months.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill, as amended, be now considered."

I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."

With reference to the Motion I hoped to be able to make to the House, it is necessary I should explain what has happened since this Bill was read a second time on 5th March. Two of my colleagues and I, on the 16th March, put down three Instructions—Notices of Motion at the time of Private Business—and these notices appeared on the Orders for the Day, one in the name of the hon. Member for Queen's County, another in the name of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick's Division of the City of Dublin, and another in my own name. These Instructions appeared on the Order Papers of the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th March, and my hon. Friend and I sought to move them on the 16th, 17th, and 18th. I am glad to see that the Chairman of Ways and Means is in his place, as on the evening of the 18th March my hon. Friend the Member for the St. Patrick's Division and I had an interview with the Chairman of Ways and Means with reference to our Instructions. He stated it was not for him to decide whether or not the Instructions were in order, but that it was a matter for Mr. Speaker. He added that the Instruction I had on the Paper during the preceding week was, in his view, not in order. I pointed out that I had removed that Instruction on Monday, the 16th March, and he informed me that he had not seen the Instruction in its new form, but he said that if it were in order he would not be enabled to give an opportunity for discussing it that week, and that he could not give such an opportunity until the following week. My hon. Friend and I expressed our entire satisfaction with that statement—

I think I must intervene and say that the hon. Member is in error. I gave no such promise or undertaking.

I entirely accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement. It is not suggested that he gave the promise in an affirmative form. He merely said he could not give an opportunity for discussing my Instruction during that week, nor could he give such an opportunity before the following week. His statement was conditional on his ascertaining whether my Instruction was held by Mr. Speaker to be in order. For that reason my hon. Friend and I awaited some intimation from the right hon. Gentleman as to whether he had found the Instruction to he in order, but, to our surprise, on the following afternoon—the afternoon of Thursday, the 19th March—we were not called upon by Mr. Speaker to move our Notices of Motion. On the following day, as we thought it was an inadvertent omission, we made inquiry, and then ascertained that the reason we had not been called upon was that on the afternoon of Thursday, the 19th March, the Bill had been reported to the House as an unopposed Bill, and came as such before the Chairman of Ways and Means and Mr. Speaker's counsel. We were very much amazed to find that, instead of having the opportunity which we had hoped for of moving our Instructions, we were deprived of it. It is for that reason that I rose just now to move my Instruction. You have, however, ruled that it is not in order to move that the Bill be recommitted in order to insert such provisions as were referred to in my Notices of Motion. I am constrained now by your decision simply to move that the Bill be considered this day six months. I regret very much that my Motion must take that form, because I was anxious to get these provisions inserted, and if they had been inserted I should have desired to facilitate the passing of the Bill. The reason why I have taken such an interest in securing the insertion of the provisions is because as a member of the Hybrid Committee which sat in 1898 to deal with the original Bill—

I think I ought to stop the hon. Member at this point, and say that the provisions which I gathered from the Instruction he read just now he desires to insert in the Bill cannot be discussed at this stage. We are here to-night to consider the Bill as it passed, and we must limit our discussion to what is contained in that Bill. As I gather from the words he read out just now, it deals with matter extraneous to the Bill; we cannot, on the consideration of what is in the Bill, consider those matters which the hon. Member mentioned in his Instruction. I hope I have made myself clear.

I will endeavour not to deal with the details of my Instruction, but only with the Bill as it stands. With this Bill the Acts of 1898 and 1899 are incorporated, and I propose to deal with those Acts as they are affected by this Bill. The Act of 1898 was passed after much discussion by the Hybrid Committee, and this Bill is an amending Bill giving further powers to the company. My objection to the further consideration of this Bill is that the giving of such consideration involves the sanction of this House to what I venture to describe as one of the most flagrant evasions of the provisions of an Act of Parliament which has ever been brought to the notice of this House. This Bill gives further powers to the board of directors of the Fishguard and Rosslare Company. My object in making this Motion is to endeavour to persuade the House that that board ought not to get any further powers, because it has not faithfully carried out the powers given to it by the principal Act.

The hon. Member is now going outside the ruling a moment ago laid down by Mr. Speaker.

I have no intention or desire to discuss any subject which I am precluded from discussing by the ruling of Mr. Speaker. Perhaps have not been able to make my intention sufficiently clear. I desire to give reasons to the House why it should not consider this Bill. It is because this Bill gives further powers to the Fishguard and Rosslare Company.

That would be sound argument on Second Reading, but not on Consideration. I would remind the hon. Member that Mr. Speaker directed his attention to the fact that the House is now considering the Bill as passed in Committee, and I invite the hon. Member to confine himself to the provisions of the Bill.

The Preamble to the Bill says:—

"Whereas it is expedient that the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company, in this Act called the company."
And Clause 4 gives the company additional powers to make harbour works. I think I am entitled to ask the House to declare that it will not give the company any such powers, and, in doing that, to tell them what the company is and how it has carried out the powers given to it by Parliament. Otherwise we are precluded from dealing with the Bill as it stands. I am dealing with the powers given to a company, and subject to your ruling, I think I am certainly entitled to give to the House the character of this company.

In my view that goes beyond the ruling laid down by Mr. Speaker. Clause 4 is quite definite. It deals with power to make harbour works, and the hon. Member must confine himself to the subject matter of that Clause.

May I ask whether this House is not entitled to review the decision of the Committee, and to consider whether the Committee ought to have come to the conclusion at which they arrived? Has this House a right now to-consider the decision of the Committee to report this Bill to the House? I submit that is the object of the Consideration stage of a Bill, namely, to consider it as it comes back from the Committee. Any Member of this House ought to be entitled to give any additional reasons for the reconsideration of the Bill which the Committee had no opportunity of hearing. I am anxious to give those reasons. Our Instructions were put down, but we had no opportunity of moving them. If we had had that opportunity we should certainly have had an opportunity of giving the reasons why we held that those Instructions should be given to the Committee which was considering the Bill.

This is not the time for discussing those Instructions. I again invite the hon. Member—I think this is the second time I have done so—to confine himself to the subject matter of Clause 4.

Before I proceed to deal with the various Clauses of the Bill—and I intend to deal with them—may I ask you to say, for the guidance of the House, what the Consideration stage of the Bill is for, because I am really unable to apprehend it from what you or Mr. Speaker have stated, except that I may deal with tire Clauses and criticise the powers contained in them. Am I to understand from your ruling that I am not entitled to criticise the body which is to have these powers? All I am anxious to do on this occasion is to give reasons why this incorporated body which is to get those powers should not get them with the assent of this House. In dealing with the various Clauses I must, of course, deal with the substance of the additional powers this Bill proposes to give, and in dealing with that substance I must be prepared to indicate to the House my reasons why the particular powers proposed to be given in those Clauses should not be given to this company. I should be precluded from giving reasons of that kind unless I am entitled to point to the past history of this company.

I thought I had made it quite clear to the hon. Member, following what Mr. Speaker had said, that the line he now proposes to take is definitely out of order. This would have been proper matter for discussion on the Second Reading, but it is not on Consideration. Clause 4, to which the hon. Member now directs attention, contains a definite power to construct harbour works. I am quite prepared to hear all that the hon. Member has to say on the question of the harbour works referred to in that Clause. The point the hon. Member is endeavouring, with some ingenuity, to again make is going back to the subject matter of his Instruction, which Mr. Speaker very clearly ruled out of order.

Are we to understand that, if a Bill has passed its Second Reading, under the peculiar circumstances which exist at the present moment, hon. Members of this House have no right whatever to criticise the Bill, because the fact that it has passed Second Reading precludes us on its Consideration from any criticism which, according to your judgment, we were then entitled to bring forward?

Perfectly correct. The Rules of the House do preclude hon. Members on Consideration, or on Third Reading of a Bill, from discussing any extraneous matter. It is quite different from a discussion on Second Reading.

Surely the point raised by my hon. Friend is not extraneous to the Bill? It is in relation to the Bill.

That is entirely a matter for the judgment of the Chair. Mr. Speaker has already ruled, and I have followed his ruling, that the points which the hon. Member is raising are outside the limits of discussion to-day.

It is your ruling that it is out of order to discuss the past conduct of the Fishguard and Rosslare Harbour Company?

If it is out of order, am I to understand that it is out of order on any stage of the Bill to grant further powers to a company to discuss how they have used their powers in the past as a reason why we should not give them additional powers?

Certainly not; I thought I had made it perfectly clear. That may be done on Second Reading but not on the Consideration stage, with which we are now dealing.

Is it not a fact that on any stage of a private Bill it is open to the House to amend, rescind, or amplify any decision they have previously come to on that Bill? Therefore, surely it is in order on this stage of the Bill to move that the company in the past have exercised their powers in such a way that they ought not to be given such powers in the future, on the ground that we can give evidence before the House which was not given to the Committee?

The hon. Member is bringing in matters which are extraneous to the Clauses of the Bill now before the House.

I will confine myself absolutely and strictly to Clause 4. Clause 4 says that subject to the provisions of this Act the company may make and maintain in the lines and according to the levels shown on the deposited plans and section the harbour works hereinafter described, and may enter upon and take and use all such lands delineated on the deposited plan as may be required for this purpose. I ask this House to give no authority to the Fishguard Company to do this, and, as I understand your ruling, I am precluded from saying why I consider that this company should get no such advantage. Supposing I can show the House that this company is not in a position to carry out this Clause, that it has had similar powers in the past, and has not carried them out according to the powers given to it, and that it has departed front the provisions of the Act under which it acted—

I thought I had made that perfectly clear. That is a point for Second Reading, and not a matter to be raised on this Clause. I must ask the hon. Member to address himself to this Clause.

May I read this passage from Sir Erskine May? "On the Consideration of a private Bill, unless a Motion to defer the Consideration to a future day or to recommit the Bill be made and carried, the House may introduce new Clauses or Amendments, subject to the restrictions imposed on such Amendments by the Standing Orders just described, and by Standing Order No. 41 (public business)." We have to consider this Bill. Surely we are in a position to bring forward Motions of this kind?

There is nothing in the ruling which I have given which is inconsistent with the Standing Order the hon. Member has read.

If this authority is correct, and I do not understand that you have controverted it in any way, on the Consideration of a private Bill, the House may introduce new Clauses or Amendments. We are now on Consideration of a Bill, and I suggest that the House should introduce a Clause to the effect that Section 89 of the Act of 1898 shall be carried out by the Fishguard and Rosslare Board exercising an effective control on their own lines of their harbours and railways.

This is a matter of a new Clause. As I understand it, it is quite open to any hon. Member to hand in during the discussion the terms of a proposed new Clause. It is not necessary, as far as I understand the procedure, for the terms of a new Clause, or an Amendment to an existing Clause in the Bill to be on the Notice Paper. That does not apply to the Consideration stage.

The reason I made the point is that I did not understand that you had in any way controverted what I had said. I understood that we were now dealing, as this paragraph mentions, with the Consideration of the Bill. This authority that my hon. Friend has handed me—perhaps the words are intended to refer to the Committee stage; I am not sure of that. That is what I thought you would enlighten the House upon. It says, "On the Consideration of a Private Bill." It does not say "on the Consideration stage." If it refers to the Consideration stage, we are on that Consideration stage, and the House may introduce new Clauses or Amendments on that stage. If it refers to the Consideration in Committee, I quite understand what you have just said, but if you are not clear that this does not refer merely to the Committee stage, but to the Consideration stage, at which this Bill now is, then according to this authority we should be entitled now to introduce new Clauses and Amendments.

Only after due notice is given. No notice has been given of any proposal. The hon. Member cannot introduce new Clauses or Amendments without notice on the Consideration stage, and it is too late, of course, to give notice now.

Should I be in order in moving to defer Consideration of the Bill in order that notice might be handed in?

The hon. Member who is in possession of the House has already moved, "That consideration of the Bill be deferred until this day six months."

I understand that has not been put to the House. I suggest that the consideration of the Bill be deferred until this day three weeks. We are not anxious that the Bill should be killed. We are anxious that the Bill should pass with Amendments.

I understand the hon. Member moves, "That the Debate be now adjourned." Does any hon. Member second that?

I hope that hon. Members will not persist with this Motion. It gives me the opportunity of saying a word in reply to what the hon. Member (Mr. O'Shee) said in his opening sentences. He appears to have been under a total misapprehension with regard to myself, and I am sorry for it, because I had no blame in the matter. It is true that he and his hon. Friend came more than once to see me about certain Instructions they had on the Paper. I told him that, in my opinion, these Instructions were not in order, for they dealt with a matter which was wholly outside the scope of the Bill. On the last occasion he saw me he told me that he had put down a new Instruction in another form, and I promised to consider it. I found that that Instruction, equally with the others, was outside the scope of the Bill, and I think it was the same one which he read out to Mr. Speaker a few moments ago. Mr. Speaker was clearly of opinion that it was out of order. I would point out to the hon. Member that he would gain nothing by the adjournment of the Debate, because his Instruction would be out of order. He was quite entitled to raise these matters on the Order for the Second Reading, and to ask the House not to read the Bill a second time, for the reasons which he has stated—reasons as to some previous powers which were given to the company not having been carried out. But after the Second Reading stage is over that opportunity is gone, and, in the interests of the private business of the House, I suggest to hon. Members that, having done their best, within the Rules of the House, to obtain the object they have in view, and having allowed the Second Reading to pass, they should not go to a Division on this Motion to adjourn the Debate. I may point out to the House generally that there is great pressure of private business, and that I have very considerable difficulty in finding proper time for it. My endeavour always is to suit the convenience of all Members of the House, and to deal with them fairly in this respect. But if there are to be Motions for the adjournment of Debates when Bills have been set down with sufficient notice, it will be impossible to conduct private business in the way I am instructed by the Standing Orders.

The Chairman of Ways and Means has appealed to the House on the ground of the congestion of private business. I would add an appeal on behalf of the Fishguard and Rosslare Company, who are promoting this Bill, as to the necessity of getting it without further delay. Every three or four weeks make a difference as to the amount of progress that can be made with the work which the Bill authorises. I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite do not wish to delay the Bill, because they realise that it is for expenditure on works on this side of the Channel which is absolutely necessary if the work already done is to be maintained under stress of weather in the coming winter. The company really feel that great and most serious damage will be entailed if this Bill cannot be proceeded with. The House will remember that twelve months ago a similar Bill was defeated. That might have been attended with serious results if we had had a winter like that before last. I appeal to hon. Members who are attacking the Bill on extraneous matters whether, having laid their case fully before the House on the Second Reading stage, they are not now putting the company in a false position by pressing their objections?

I would like to get quite clearly to understand the ruling which you have just given as to the procedure on the Report stage of a Bill—namely, that it is not possible to discuss the measure fully and in the same manner as on the Second Reading. That is what I understood Mr. Deputy-Speaker to say. I am not opposing this Bill in any shape or form, but, as I understand, it is quite competent for any Member of the House on the Report stage of a Bill to discuss any Clause in it, and to show that the Clause goes beyond what the House thinks fair and right. I am not now on the subject of Clause 4 at all, nor am I saying whether the Instruction is in order or not. I am dealing with the Clause which gives the company power to raise more capital. Surely I would be entitled to discuss whether this company ought to get more capital or not in view of the way they have used their powers in the past: I wish to get a specific ruling on the question whether on a private Bill this House has power to discuss every Clause, and to add to it or to delete it, as long as on the Report stage the House does not attempt to do by way of Amendment anything which would not have been in order on the Second Reading. I suggest to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that every Member in this House is entitled to move any Amendment he thinks fit, subject only to the ruling that, if it was not in order on the Second Reading, it would not be in order on the Report stage. I take no interest in this Bill at all, except in so far as regards what may happen under the ruling you have given to some future Bill.

The rulings of the Chair in previous cases have not been contrary to the view put forward by the hon. Member. All the rulings of Mr. Speaker and myself have confined the discussion within the scope of the Bill as we now have it in our hands, and we have not allowed the discussion to deal with such extraneous matters as might be in order on the Second Reading.

As to what fell from the Chairman of Ways and Means, that we should have put our Amendments on the Second Reading, I would point out that Mr. Deputy-Speaker has stated that if we had put down Amendments within the scope of the Bill this would have been our opportunity for moving the Amendments. We have had no such opportunity. This Bill was put on the Notice Paper this morning without notice to us. I was not aware until three o'clock this afternoon that this business was to come up to-night. Therefore, it was impossible for me to put down a Notice of Motion of any kind. I do not know who is responsible for putting down this matter for to-night, but it has taken my hon. Friend and myself completely by surprise, and we have not been able to prepare Amendments to get a discussion on the points which we wish to raise on that Bill. According to the ruling of Mr. Speaker, he did not rule that the Instruction which I wished to move was outside the scope of the Bill, but he did rule that my Motion could not be considered as it was not on the Paper. I had no opportunity of putting it on the Paper at this stage, because I only knew at three

Division No. 58.]

AYES.

[8.58 p.m.

Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)Hardie, J. KeirO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Boland, John PiusHayden, John PatrickO'Doherty, Philip
Byles, Sir William PollardHazleton, RichardO'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Clancy, John JosephJoyce, MichaelO'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Crumley, PatrickKelly, EdwardO'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Cullinan, JohnKilbride, DenisO'Shee, James John
De Forest, BaronLardner, James C. R.O'Sullivan, Timothy
Delany, WilliamLundon, ThomasPhillips, John (Longford, S.)
Donelan, Captain A.Lynch, Arthur AlfredReddy, Michael
Doris, WilliamMcGhee, RichardSheehy, David
Duffy, William J.MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix)Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
Farrell, James PatrickMolloy, MichaelWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)
Ffrench, PeterMuldoon, John
Flavin, Michael JosephNeilson, FrancisTELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Hackett, JohnNolan, JosephField and Mr. F. Meehan.
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

NOES.

Acland, Francis DykeFell, ArthurHodge, John
Adamson, WilliamFenwick, Rt. Hon. CharlesHogge, James Myles
Alden, PercyFerens, Rt. Hon. Thomas RobinsonHolmes, Daniel Turner
Arnold, SydneyFetherstonhaugh, GodfreyHope, Harry (Bute)
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Gill, A. H.Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeGilmour, Captain JohnHughes, Spencer Leigh
Barnes, George N.Gladstone, W. G. C.Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)
Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs)Glanville, H. J.John, Edward Thomas
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)Glazebrook, Captain Philip K.Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)
Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George)Goddard, Sir Daniel FordJones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East).
Boyton, JamesGoldstone, FrankJones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)
Burn, Colonel C. R.Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnGordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasGuiney, JohnJowett, Frederick William
Carlile, Sir Edward HildredGuinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)Kenyon, Barnet
Cassel, FelixHamersley, Alfred St. GeorgeLarmor, Sir J.
Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood)Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham)Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert
Chancellor, HenryHancock, John GeorgeMacdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)
Clough, WilliamHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs).
Cooper, Sir Richard AshmoleHarvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)Macpherson, James Ian
Cotton, William FrancisHealy, Maurice (Cork)M'Callum, Sir John M.
Crooks, WilliamHealy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.)M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)
Currie, George W.Helme, Sir Norval WatsonMarks, Sir George Croydon
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Molteno, Percy Alport
Dawes, James ArthurHenderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)Morrell, Philip
Denman, Hon. Richard DouglasHenderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.)Morison, Hector
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. ScottHenderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)Norton-Griffiths, J.
Duke, Henry EdwardHerbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)Nuttall, Harry
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Hewins, William Herbert SamuelO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)Hibbert, Sir Henry F.O'Malley, William
Essex, Sir Richard WalterHigham, John SharpOrmsby-Gore, Hon. William
Esslemont, George BirnleHills, John WallerParker, James (Halifax)
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.Hinds, JohnParry, Thomas H.

o'clock in the afternoon of it being taken to-night.

The hon. Member is quite in error there. The Notices were given on Friday last and appeared in the Papers corresponding to this.

We were quite unaware until this afternoon that this Bill was to be taken to-night, and for that reason no Amendments were put down. Therefore, I must persist in the Motion that this Debate be adjourned, and must divide the House on it.

Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

The House divided: Ayes, 46; Noes, 158.

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)Sanders, Robert ArthurWhite, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
Perkins, Walter F.Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)Whitehouse, John Howard
Peto, Basil EdwardSmith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)Whitley, Rt. Hon. J. H.
Pratt, J. W.Snowden, PhilipWhyte, Alexander F. (Perth)
Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Soames, Arthur WellesleyWilliams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.)
Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)Spear, Sir John WardWilliams, John (Glamorgan)
Raffan, Peter WilsonStanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Scarborough)Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Sutton, John E.Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)Swift, RigbyWing, Thomas Edward
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Talbot, Lord EdmundWood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Wright, Henry Fitzherbert
Robinson, SidneyThorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)Yate, Colonel C. E.
Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)Touche, George AlexanderYeo, Alfred William
Roche, Augustine (Louth)Trevelyan, Charles PhilipsYoung, William (Perthshire, East)
Rowntree, ArnoldWalker, Colonel William HallYoxall, Sir James Henry
Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.Watt, Henry Anderson
Salter, Arthur ClavellWebb, H.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)Weston, Colonel J. W.Mr. James Mason and Mr. Baldwin.
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Original Question again proposed. Debate resumed.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill, as amended, considered accordingly; to be read the third time.

Unemployment

I beg to move, "That this House, while welcoming the decision of the Government to extend the provisions of Part II. of the National Insurance Act to other trades than those now insured against Unemployment, and trusting that this may be done without delay, recognises that other measures must be taken to deal with recurring periods of trade depression, as well as with chronic under-employment, and with the case of those Unemployed who are temporarily or permanently unfit for ordinary remunerative work, and accordingly urges that, while trade is still good, further provision should be made for the planning of public work, whether municipal or national, so as to regularise the demand for labour, as well as for the organisation, maintenance, and aid of graded training institutions and other agencies."

In calling attention to the inadequacy of existing provisions for dealing with the problems of unemployment, and moving this Motion, I do not wish to apologise to the House for turning its attention to a theme so different from that which we have been discussing to-day, for I believe that the peaceful settlement of that great issue which the great majority of this House desire to achieve, may be made more easy if we can realise that there are problems of vast importance to the whole country on which good men of all parties have a substantial measure of agreement; and if, to-night, this House is able to endorse this Motion, I think we shall be able to show it to the country, in order to encourage the Government to go forward in dealing with one of the greatest problems of our time. I think it was Lord Morley who once said that we could count a day ill spent in which no thought was given to the poor. I am afraid we all of us must feel that our time must stand condemned by that high test, and perhaps Parliament as a whole must feel that judgment. Yet we do know that Parliament does care for this great problem—increasingly care for it. It is encouraging that there has been on all sides so much convergence of opinion during recent years as to the methods to be adopted in approaching the problem. I am quite aware that many in this House may be dissatisfied with the contents of my Motion, because they feel that they are inadequate. I can feel that to some extent myself, but I have endeavoured to frame a Motion which will provide the greatest common measure of agreement amongst social reformers of all schools on that great question. It may be said, why are we dealing with this now? I think a moment's consideration will show that the present, while we are still in years of trade prosperity as a nation, is just the time when we should approach this problem. We should not leave it to the time of acute depression, when hasty remedies, ill considered, are snatched at in the despair of the moment.

We have to remember that during these prosperous years, when the increasing trade returns are satisfactory, there remains always a constant residuum of misery, which is a constant reproach to our civilisation. We ought never to be content while there are in our midst so many permanently unemployed. Therefore, I think that if we can pass this Resolution to-night, while we are still in the midst of prosperous years, we can encourage the Government to go forward to the lean years, which we know must be coming, with well-conceived plans. I am aware too that a vast problem like this cannot be met by one remedy. It is too great for any one proposal to meet, and it is one which needs the co-operation of all Government Departments, the best thought of the State, the best endeavour of private initiative, and of religious and moral agencies, if it is to be solved. We ought, I think, before the House turns to actual proposals for the future, to consider for a moment how we have attempted to deal with the problem in the past. We must all admit that the old method of the Poor Law has broken down. I think that is common ground in all schools of thought. The Majority and Minority alike feel that the Poor Law, as we now have it, is totally unsatisfactory as a means of dealing with the problem of unemployment. It is something to have that negative agreement amongst us. I think we should feel grateful for the experiment which was made during the last years of the late Government—an experiment which began with the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Strand Division (Mr. Long), the scheme which led up to the Unemployed Workmen Act of 1905. I speak with some special interest of that, because I have had the privilege of serving as a member of the Central (Unemployed) Body and also as a member of the Distress Committee.

I think that experiment was useful both for what it shows could be done and what it shows could not be done, but it was distinctly put forward as an experiment and not as permanent legislation. It was limited to three years originally, and I think it is some reproach to this House that year by year it has allowed the Act to be renewed, for the most part silently, in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, although we knew that it was only an experiment. I think if we look at it closely we shall all agree that the system of relief works which it encouraged was unsatisfactory. They were a pis aller, and we ought to have something better. The relief works in London on which unemployed were set to work in parks was preceded by an arrangement which involved the dismissal of ordinary workpeople who would have been engaged upon that work. That was a ludicrous attempt to deal with the problem. I think, too, that we have all learnt a painful lesson as to the attempt to deal with the problem of coast erosion in hurriedly undertaken relief works. The experiment at Fambridge did not encourage work of that kind organised in the way that it was. But, on the other hand, there were points of the Act which were extremely useful, and some of which have already led to a wide extension for the nation as a whole. The Labour Exchanges began under that Act, and the work of emigration, also done under that Act, however limited, has, at any rate, been good in its effect on individuals. Yet although it is useful to the individual benefited, it is a confession of failure for the nation as a whole that we have got to get rid of persons who cannot find work here and are yet capable of doing good work as citizens in the Colonies.

There were two other experiments undertaken under the Act. One was that of workrooms for women in London. They met with very severe criticism, and some of it economically perhaps sound, and yet they were undoubtedly the only other alternatives to the Poor Law. They did provide work under proper conditions, and not degrading conditions, for poor women who ought not to have been driven to the refuge of the Poor Law, which was the only other alternative, except that of private charity. There was a most interesting experiment at the Hollesley Bay Farm Colony. That, again, has been very much criticised. Part of the criticisms were due, not to the management of the colony, but to the limitations of the Act. It was intended originally that the men taken there should be trained to work as small holders and also, in some cases, for emigration, but the Act prevented them staying for more than sixteen weeks. It was not found possible, as hon. Members who are familiar with the work of agriculture will understand, in most cases to train men adequately, or anything like adequately, in that period. It was through no fault of the colony that failure occurred. As far as certain cases were concerned, very useful results were achieved in training for emigration. In almost all cases there was a remarkable result in the improvement of physique in the men who went there. They went there underfed and injured in morale, and regular employment, fresh air, and wholesome diet made a very great difference to those men. On the other hand, there were defects, inherent also in the Act, which necessarily prevented their training being what one would have liked it to have been. It was not found possible to provide adequate technical training.

I think in some ways life was perhaps a little too easy in that it might have been better for the men if a course of work could have been arranged in addition to the manual work out of doors. Worst of all, I think, when cases occurred of slackness or of lack of discipline, the only penalty that was possible was a penalty that fell, not on the men themselves, but on their wives and families. The only penalty was to send a man away back to his home in London, and that penalty fell heaviest on the innocent wife and family. That, I think, must be clearly a case to be remedied in future. We have not stopped fortunately at the Unemployed Workmen Act. I think we must in approaching this problem recognise some of the other steps that have been taken since the Act was passed, and notably the Labour Exchange Act and the Act providing for unemployment insurance. The House all welcomed two weeks ago the admirable statement of the President of the Board of Trade in response to a universal demand from all quarters that there should be an extension of the provisions for unemployment insurance to other trades not at present insured. We were very grateful for his sympathetic speech and for the attitude of the Government which he represents, and I think to-night, although I do not want to enlarge on it, we ought to reaffirm the decision come to on the Resolution moved by the hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson), and urge the Government to go forward now. This is not a small matter, because we know that the whole actuarial basis of the scheme for unemployment insurance is based on the insurance beginning while trade is still good. Therefore if there is to be an extension of this Act during the next six or seven years, it must be made now if it is to be actuarially sound. We ask therefore that the Government should be bold and should enlarge the Act as far as it is possible in these years of prosperity. I know that it will be very difficult to enlarge it to other trades in a few years time, until the cycle of prosperity has come round again.

I mention in this Motion the grave problem of under-employment. We can never neglect that when we are dealing with the question of unemployment. We believe that the machinery of the Labour Exchanges in the years to come will help by the readjustment of labour to lessen that problem, but it is one which has to be faced by our Statesmen, and as to which we look to the Government for guidance. Then we have to deal also with the question of trade cycles, and seasonal, and especially cyclical aspects of trades, which we can hardly prevent, but the hardship of which we believe to some extent, by wise foresight, can be mitigated. Here, again, I think we must express our indebtedness to the action in past years of the President of the Board of Trade. He was one of the first, I believe, to recognise the importance to the Nation of wise foresight in the planning of municipal and national work in time of prosperity, so that we should not put forward all that work while trade was good, but reserve necessary work for the season of depression. In connection with this let me read to the House an extract from the evidence given by Mr. Bowley to the Poor Law Commission. It puts better and in fewer words than I could the whole statement of the case:—
"In round numbers it may be estimated that 200,000 or fewer able-bodied adult males are out of work from non-seasonal causes one year with another, and have no sufficient resources, and that this number fluctuates between 100,000 in the best year and 300,000 in the worst. … There is consequently need in the worst year for wages to the extent of £10,000,000 to bring it to a level with the best, so far as those men are concerned; for the whole of the last ten years £40,000,000 would have sufficed. The annual wages bill of the country is estimated at £700,000,000. … Is it possible for the Government and other public bodies who employ labour in large quantities to counteract the industrial ebb and flow of demand by inducing a complementary flow and ebb; by withdrawing part of their demand when industry needs all the labour it can get, and increasing the demand when industry is slack? To have a useful effect, this alteration would have to be commensurate with the stun named above (£40,000,000 in ten years)."
Surely that is a problem which ought to be capable of solution by us as a nation. When we remember that £150,000,000 is spent annually in public works and services, excluding pensions and interest on debt, it ought to be possible by wise adjustment to meet the demands made in that statement by Professor Bowley. When we see the example set by the great Government Departments in this matter, I think we shall feel that as a nation we are to blame. In the two great spending Departments of the Army and Navy there is a constant demand, roughly speaking, regular from year to year. It ought surely to be possible for those Departments to arrange the work in such a way as to meet the cyclical need and, to some extent, the seasonal depression also. It would be a very great help to industry if that could be done. In the giving of orders for clothing and boots, and the new works of construction by the great Departments, both the cyclical and the seasonal periods should be considered. But the matter concerns other Departments also. The construction of new post offices in different parts of the country is always going on, and, as far as we can see, without any relation whatever to the seasonal or cyclical changes of trade.

Another great Department which is expanding under the care of the President of the Board of Trade is that of the Labour Exchanges. I am glad to say that hitherto in years of prosperity very little has been done to provide permanent accommodation, but I hope that during the years of prosperity sites may be chosen and plans made for suitable buildings, if we are to have, as I hope we may, Labour Exchanges which shall be centres for trade union activities, as well as for their own work, providing, at nominal charges, meeting places for working people, friendly societies, and trade unions, as in Germany. When we get large public works undertaken to meet that need, it will be for the benefit of the whole nation, and they might be constructed in seasons of distress, unemployment, and trade depression. There are also the great Government Offices shortly to be put up in Whitehall. While the plans may be hastened forward now, the actual construction can be postponed until times of greater need. The Local Government Board has done much in the past to stimulate public opinion in this direction. It has issued circulars in times of depression, pointing out the need for this action on the part of municipal authorities. I would ask that they should go a step further. Municipal authorities look to the guidance of the Government, and if we could have a regular demand made upon municipal authorities by the Local Government Board for the planning of work with this end in view, we should do a great deal; and if, in addition to that, the Local Government Board would issue year by year a separate Report—it might be very small, simply a few pages— stating how municipal authorities throughout the country had been making these plans for work, and what steps had been taken, we should be bringing into force the greatest of all engines—the force of public opinion—to urge local authorities onward to do their duty in this respect.

I come now to the last part of the Resolution, which, unlike the earlier parts, can be met in large measure only by legislation. It can, however, to some extent, be met even now. If legislation is to be satisfactory, it should be based on careful preparation by an Interdepartmental Committee. Any system of graded institutions and colonies touches not only one Department, but a number of Departments in the State. It must necessarily deal with the great problem of vagrancy, which is a Home Office question. It must deal with the products of our prison system. It must deal with the products of our existing workhouse system, which we hope to see replaced by something better. It must also be in touch with the authorities of the Board of Trade. I hope, therefore, that in the preparation of legislation, some such Interdepartmental Committee or Commission may be got to work. We have already before us many suggestions. My hon. Friend the Member for Montrose Burghs (Mr. R. Harcourt) and my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Keir Hardie) have brought in measures of a far-reaching character on this subject. It may not be possible at present for the Government to go to any extent as far as those Bills suggest. But there are certain measures which command almost universal assent, and I think that to that extent we may demand early action.

It seems to be agreed that, sooner or later, we must have some form of detention colonies for dealing with the most difficult case of those, whom I am 10th to call unemployable, who come under the existing vagrancy law. It is very easy for us to deal with these unhappy products of our present civilisation in a selfish spirit. I do not want to see them dealt with merely in a spirit which would sweep our streets clean of sights which distress the feelings of the comfortable and well-to-do. We owe a debt to these men, even when we may feel that there is moral wrong which has brought them to the position which they now hold. We must not shut them up in a place like Merxplas, in Belgium, leaving them to themselves in a penal institution which is almost an Inferno. We want an institution which shall be in the true sense of the word a Purgatorio, with a way up to the highest place of all, with a door always open leading upwards. Although there may be detention for a time, it must only be with the object of reform.

The experience of Belgium shows that small colonies, even of this class, must be better than larger ones. We do not want to see a place like Merxplas with 6,000 inhabitants. I would rather see places like the smaller Swiss and German colonies. I hope we may not content ourselves with the discussion of this very difficult problem, but that we shall also affirm the need for a system of graded training institutions which will be necessary as the stagnant pool of labour becomes clearer under the action of the Labour Exchanges. As casual labour is to some extent decasualised there will be a large residuum left which will have to be dealt with in one way or another. These men deserve to have honourable training, with no stigma attaching to it, given under conditions which demand and expect the best. The training institutions which one would like to see must be of a variety of types to suit differing needs. We shall have to have a great deal of experiment before we can arrive at a satisfactory system. But there are obviously certain things which they can do. A great number of our under-employed and unemployed labourers at one time possessed industrial skill. Graded institutions might aid such men to re-acquire the skill which they once possessed. It might also aid men who had specialised in some department of work which had become obsolete owing to trade changes to learn some other branch of a trade that they had really made their own in the past and which was slipping from them. Apart from these questions, and these special cases of readaptation to industrial environment, training institutions might fit everyone who went into them to be more adaptable and more alert, and might give back the stamina and strength some of these men had lost. I hope, also, that we shall have in the future a system of rural colonies and agencies.

Foreign experience has shown us that this can be useful, at least to a limited extent. British experience in voluntary experiments has shown the same thing. We have, unfortunately, too few of them, and they are very inadequately supported. The Salvation Army made their experiment at Hadleigh. The Christian Union for Social Service has made theirs at Lingfield and Wallingford. I believe the Church Army has a small experiment, and there are other agencies, churches, and societies that I believe would come forward to under- take a work of this kind if they could get some encouragement and some more adequate financial aid than is at present forth-coming. I would ask the President of the Local Government Board if it would not be possible for him, even now, without waiting for a new Bill which would, I know, be requisite before the State could undertake institutions of this kind itself, to make provision for a Grant-in-Aid, this year, if possible, for institutions of this kind, which might begin with a small sum, but which would be extremely useful as an experiment. I hope when he considers a Bill to deal with this question, he will consider the possibility of a half-way house between a State Detention Colony and the present Voluntary Colonies. It ought to be possible for men of weak will who have sunk and gone under in the industrial struggle to he willing to place themselves under voluntary guardianship for a limited period. That is already being done with success in the case of inebriates asylums. There are many cases of men unemployed who have gone under, who recognise their own moral weakness, and in their better moments will be anxious to be thus under restraint to a limited extent in order to recover their morale. I think that ought to be possible under a voluntary system of colonies.

Before concluding, I should perhaps say a word as to the financial possibilities involved. I believe that the average cost in British prisons at present is something like £23 per inmate. In convict prisons it is £27 per head. Our small British colonies for the unemployed are a lot more expensive. Hadleigh, I think, costs £48 per inmate per annum. Although I believe Lingfield is less expensive, it is still more expensive than the prison. But these experiments have only been working a comparatively short time, and under very unfavourable condition. They have had, when supported by Poor Law guardians, very inadequate Grants paid to them on behalf of the inmates. The foreign colonies, which have been working much longer, have been able to reduce the expenditure to a remarkable extent. I believe the average cost of administration at Merxplas, which is very largely self-contained, is £9 per head, and the German colony costs about £10 per head. This is reduced by the average earnings of the inmates to £6 per head. It ought, therefore, to be possible in the future, under wise management, to have a very economical system of colonies. They will always cost something to the State—and I think they should! We have to remember that the men who are there would be costing something anyhow. In the worst cases they would be preying upon the community as vagrants; in the case of the unhappy unemployed person, who is unemployed through no fault of his own, there is a constant indirect charge upon the State. If through his unemployment he sinks clown into crime or goes ultimately to the hospital with disease, he is a further charge on the State. It would be a wise economy on the part of the community to prevent this.

Finally, I think we ought to ask the President to encourage voluntary effort in this work, because it would enlist new forces of enthusiasm in aid of the very poorest in the community. I believe that the churches of this country would come forth and take up this work, and that men outside the churches would band themselves together for it, too. If this work is to be done well, it depends upon getting the very best men and the very best women to give themselves to it. It would be worth while making a generous Grant in order that you might have not only efficient administration in Colonies like these, but an admirable educational work done there too. It would be a very great thing for the State if we could re-enlist in its service, and in the service of the whole community, those noble religious forces which in the Middle Ages expressed themselves in various guilds and in the furtherance of works of mercy. We want to get the same spirit showing itself in caring for, in colonies and institutions, the unemployed and the unemployable, and those who through no fault of their own, through sickness, blindness, and accident, are unable to make their own way in the battle of life.

I beg to second the Motion.

In view of the extremely interesting and exhaustive way in which the Mover has dealt with the question, and in view of the limited time available, I do not wish to take up more than a few minutes. The first matter to which the Mover directs the attention of the House is the extension of some of the provisions of Part II. of the National Insurance Act dealing with unemployment. On this matter I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give the House and the country some definite information. There is, I believe, a more or less general impression in the country that, on the whole, Part II. of the Insurance Act is working extremely well and is a great practical success. If that is so, and I am not challenging it, we shall all be delighted. The only point I wish to put to the right hon. Gentleman is this, that there is a certain amount of uneasiness and uncertainty as to some of the finances of the compulsory parts of Part II. in the compulsorily insured trades. I am going to deal with some figures for which I do not vouch, but I will give the source, and I will ask the right hon. Gentleman if they are anything approximate to what would be the correct figures given by his Department. I happened to see these figures published in an issue of the "New Statesman." I had not an opportunity of testing these figures as to whether they are accurate or not. The administrative expenses of Part II. were there set out as £530,000 a year, and the sum estimated to be paid in unemployment benefit was £800,000 a year. If these figures are approximately correct, it does seem to me to be an enormous proportion to spend upon administrative expenses as compared with that spent in unemployment benefit. It works out, as those interested in mathematics will see, at 1s. for the workmen and 8d. for the official. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell me these figures are mistaken. I only ask the right hon. Gentleman for information.

One other point I should like to put to the right hon. Gentleman is with regard to the extension of Part II. of the Act. As the House will be aware, extension can be made in one or two ways. You can either bring more trades within the scope of the compulsorily insured trades or you can extend and improve the conditions under which non-compulsory insured trades receive benefit in the working of that part of the Act. I venture to think that there is nothing at all of substantial doubt in the financial soundness of the compulsory side of the scheme, and the right hon. Gentleman may be well advised to consider whether it would not be better to have extension in the way of enlarging the provisions for non-compulsorily insured trades under Section 106. Now I turn to one or two other points. The hon. Member who moved this Motion drew our attention to the two divisions into which this Motion actually falls—namely, first of all, temporary employment, and, secondly, chronic unemployment. I do not wish to recover the ground over which the hon. Member moved beyond saying this, that in dealing with temporary employment I suspect that whatever we do we shall have to admit that until the end of time some measure of unemployment is inevitable. In fact, you may liken industry to a long column of troops on the march, in which whatever care those in front may take those behind will be exposed to jars and jolts. In the same way we shall always be exposed to those jars and jolts in the way of unemployment, and therefore we reformers should not be deterred if our efforts are not altogether successful.

It is important, whatever we do, we should bear in mind our reform should, as far as possible, be built upon a permanent basis rather than upon a makeshift basis, of such a makeshift basis character where those relief works to which the hon. Member referred are made necessary, and may again become necessary, in times of crisis. They are generally—I would almost say always so—undesirable. I think in a great many parts of the country they assist in the more efficient classification of those who come under them than in other directions. The hon. Member also dealt with the question of the regularisation of labour. I will not follow that ground beyond saying this, that I am convinced—and a mere cursory study of the material will convince anybody else—whether you take a national Department, as the hon. Member did, or whether you take, as the President of the Board of of Trade has done, departments under local authorities, or whether you take what is so often referred to in these Debates, namely, the work of Crown Agents for Crown Colonies, there is an enormous amount to be done in the way of spreading your demands from the years in which trade is booming in order to safeguard yourself in the years in which trade is falling off. I think you could extend that principle rather further. I believe there is a considerable amount of work that can also be done by private business and private individuals. I believe landlords in the country if they were to set their minds to it, could make their contribution by reserving a certain amount of work to be done in winter rather than in summer. So much for the principle, and for the practice in the way in which progress could be made and work extended. One word about the second question, namely, that of chronic under- employment. I should be the last to minimise all that has been done, and is done, in the direction of attacking the problem from the side of the child. In no problem is it, I think, so very true to say that the child is father to the man than in this problem, and hon. Members will at once have present to their minds a great many instances of examples of what I have in my mind when I say we should attack that problem from the side of the child. But to deal with it from the side of the man is, if not so easy, more pressing, and it is from that point of view we must ask the right hon. Gentleman to give us, if he would, some information when he comes to reply.

10.0 P.M.

I believe everybody, or at any rate most of us, who study this question, are beginning to be convinced that the only way in which we can deal with what I may call the decasualisation of labour is to check the influx of labour into trades already overstocked. It has been done, as hon. Members know, in large degrees in one or two instances already in this country, and the more especially in Liverpool and Manchester, and also, I think, Goole. In these instances, I believe I am right in saying it was done by a voluntary arrangement between employers and employed under the instruction of a Government Department. We would ask that that should be carried, if possible, even further. I make this suggestion, which, as far as I know, has not been made before, and which I should like to see developed. I have always thought you might do something in a small way for one department of your unemployment in this way. In so far as the stock of unemployment is contributed to by discharged soldiers, would it not be possible to make an arrangement on a territorial basis with employers by inviting them to give an undertaking to keep a certain number of regular places in their work for discharged soldiers, and if they were willing to do that—which, of course, would not be an economic arrangement, inasmuch as the discharged soldiers would hardly be skilled men—you should recognise it by a countervailing advantage through taxation or in some other way. I only throw that out as a suggestion to be tried upon an entirely voluntary basis, because it seems to me to accord with what must be the main principle of this question, namely, that you will attack this problem best if you attack it indirectly. I wish to say a word or two about the last part of the hon. Member's Motion, namely, the aid of graded training institutions. Hon. Members will recollect that these are the kind of places referred to in the Report issued by some hon. Friends of mine on these benches who for some time sat in Committee under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend beside me, which reported last year or the year before. The hon. Member began by saying that the Poor Law in this respect had largely broken down, that relief works had largely proved unsatisfactory, and that they were driven to the conclusion that for the solution of this problem you require training institutions carefully graded. Not the least advantage of this system was that you would be able to discriminate between the various classes of individuals you had to handle. Whilst feeling in sympathy with that recommendation, I emphasise the extreme necessity of caution and moving slowly in this matter. If you do not I think you will run great danger of your administration being broken down in the matter of selection, and that would be jeopardising the whole scheme. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider very carefully the request which has been made by the hon. Member opposite who asked—and I should like to support his demand—that we might have an Interdepartmental Committee appointed to consider this question and to make a Report as to what work can be done and done at once. I know that there are many other interesting matters engaging the attention of Parliament, but if I am to believe what I read in the papers I notice that the Chancellor of the Exchequer only last Saturday week, speaking at Huddersfield, said that
"his heart was more moved by the needs of the dockers at Wapping than the imaginary grievances in other parts of the United Kingdom in Ulster."
The Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks that the needs of the dockers are more important, and if he holds that view we shall not be asking the Government to do more than they have declared themselves willing to do if we invite them to put those professions into practice and give the House to-night some earnest of their intention by the announcement that the Government are prepared to do what the hon. Member has asked for.

There are one or two points of primary importance which have been raised in this Debate. The hon. Member who has just sat down will excuse me for saying that his suggestion in regard to the Territorials and discharged soldiers does not touch the unemployed question, because, if the Territorial or the retired soldier gets a job, some civilian must be left out. May I point out that the question of unemployment is again becoming universal, and at the present time it is becoming acute in a good many countries, more especially in Germany, America, and Canada. I mention that fact lest there should be any hon. Members still inclined to tell us that some kind of Tariff Reform will in any way even modify the problem of unemployment. The question of detention colonies for those who have lost the desire for work has been raised, and it has been suggested that they should live at the expense of the community. I suggest the President of the Local Government Board that he should not spend too much time or money on that plan. If the genuine unemployed can be adequately cared for, the vagrant will practically die out, and to deal with this question in a subsidiary way might prevent a great deal of good being done in other directions. The number of men and women who can be trained in these colonies is always bound to be limited, and I hope more attention will be paid to the great public works of reclamation than to the establishment of these labour colonies. I would remind the President of the Local Government Board that in this matter he is not now left to his own unaided resources. The Development Commissioners have very large powers and they have large sums of public money at their disposal. I endorse all that has been said about the allocation of work in order to provide some of it for the lean years as well as for the fat years. The Development Commissioners have been specially empowered by a part of the Clause in the Act to arrange their great schemes for reclamation and so on, so as to be most active when unemployment is scarce and trade is bad.

The problem of unemployment cuts deeper than these suggested remedies would seem to indicate. I have no objection at all to an Interdepartmental Committee to investigate the question once more and to suggest remedies, but, until we get some Department of the Government other than the Poor Law authorities—and let me remark, in passing, that the Local Government Board have very great powers, not only under the modern Act, but under the old Act of Elizabeth, which I understand is still operative—by the creation of a Ministry of Labour, part of whose responsible duties would be to deal with this question and make provision against unemployment, we shall not really solve the problem. An eight-hours working day would tend to absorb a very large proportion of surplus labour, and to that extent prevent unemployment becoming acute. Higher wages would prevent unemployment by creating in the market a greater demand for that which is made, and thereby finding employment. The better organisation of unskilled labour would also have its effect. Last, but not least, there is the establishment of the principle of the right to work. We on these benches claim that the competent worker, who through no fault of his own is deprived of the opportunity of earning his livelihood, has as much right to claim either work of maintenance at the hands of the State as any high paid officer of the Civil Service. I hope the President of the Local Government Board, in replying to the Debate, will not leave out of account those causes which go deeper than those which have been suggested. Although these remedies cannot be enforced without legislation, still, in view of the fact that unemployment is bound to come, and come speedily, either by legislation or by prearrangement, something effective should be done to prevent the recurrence of former scandals of tens of thousands of able-bodied men and women suffering hunger and want through lack of honest employment.

The hon. Member, who has made good use of the opportunity which has fallen to him to bring this matter before the House, has directed our attention to a subject less exciting indeed than those which have absorbed us during the last few days, but in my view certainly not less important. I think that three preliminary propositions of a negative character can be established. The first is that the old comfortable doctrine that if a man is unemployed it is somehow or other generally through his own fault is not tenable. The governing classes used always readily to assume that a man who was out of work was out either because he was indolent or had some physical, mental, or moral defect. That is disproved by one very simple fact which has been revealed by the collection of statistics in recent years, and it is this: In times of bad trade, perhaps 8 per cent. of the working-classes may be unemployed. When good trade comes only 2 per cent. are unemployed. If all the 8 per cent, were unemployed through their own fault in times of bad trade, how is it that, as a matter of fact, 6 per cent. out of 8 per cent. are employed when trade is good? Mr. Seebohm Rowntree and Mr. Lasker, who recently made a detailed study of this problem as it presented itself in the city of York, found when they made their examination, in June, 1910, that there were in that town, out of a population of 82,000, no less than 1,278 persons unemployed at a moment which was not at all one of trade depression, and after examining each of those cases, they came to the conclusion that fully one-half of those persons were not in any way disqualified for employment on account of any personal defect. That is the first negative conclusion from which we must start. These men who are unemployed in a time of great trade depression, it may be due to world-wide causes over which they have no more control than a man has control over the lightning that strikes him, or over the earthquake that destroys his house, are not in any degree, the great majority of them, to be blamed for the circumstances in which they find themselves. I grant they may be the least efficient of the working-classes, because obviously they are the first to be dismissed, but it does not follow that they are unemployable.

The second conclusion to which we are forced is that it is folly to leave the treatment of this question to the moment when the actual need has arisen. In early days it was regarded as a question which occurred from time to time, and which should attract the attention of Parliament and of public men when it occurred. As soon as trade was depressed the men were unemployed in thousands and tens of thousands, processions marched through the streets, riots perhaps took place, and then only was public opinion stirred, soup kitchens were opened, stoneyards began by Boards of Guardians, and hurriedly all sorts of inefficient and ill-considered relief schemes were started. The whole question was treated on each occasion as though it were unprecedented, and as though once over it was not bound to recur. In these days we must adopt a wiser course.

The third consideration I would suggest to the House is that the right remedy for unemployment is certainly not State-aided emigration. That, of course, would be the easiest remedy. To say, "Here are these men who are out of work, and here are vast empty spaces in different parts of the world, let us put the labour that is excessive here into those other areas where it is needed." That is the easiest course, but those who advocate it forget that in times of good trade almost all these men are needed, and that when times of good trade come round, if you have disposed elsewhere of a large part of your deserving enterprising population, the economic resources of your country are so much the poorer. If it were right and practicable to emigrate the idle, the drunken, the dissolute, the feeble-minded, or the inefficient, then, indeed, from our own selfish point of view nothing could be better, but obviously that would be an injustice to the countries to which these persons were sent which they would not for a moment tolerate. Those whom it is suggested should emigrate are, in fact, men and women in the prime of life, the most enterprising, healthy, honest, sober, and industrious of our population, and I have yet to learn that it is any service to any nation under any circumstances to exile from its own shores persons belonging to that class of population. I think what Swift said long ago is very true—that to suggest emigration as a cure for want of work is like cutting off a man's feet because he has got no shoes.

The Government and this House would have been very much to blame if, during the years that have gone by, they had not recognised these facts, and had not taken steps to deal with the problem. During the eight years that the present Administration has held office many things have in fact, been done. The first measure, which was an emergency measure and the least satisfactory of all, was that this House was asked to vote a sum of money to assist the working of the Unemployed Workmen's Act, which the previous Government had placed on the Statute Book, but which was not provided by them with any funds; and year to year ever since sums varying from £100,000 to £300,000 have been voted by Parliament to distress committees in various parts of the country, and to the Central (Unemployed) Body in London, for carrying out relief works and similar enterprises. I agree with the hon. Gentleman who moved the Resolution that these relief works are better than nothing, but they are perhaps the least satisfactory of all forms of dealing with this problem. We find in many places the same men come back year after year and avail themselves of the opportunity for work, and it becomes, in fact, almost regular winter employment for a considerable body of people. The Majority of the Royal Commission on Poor Law condemned this system in almost uncompromising terms. At the same time it is true that, in default of other measures, this is far better than the Poor Law, and those men and women who have given useful service to distress committees and to the Central (Unemployed) Body in London have done good work for the class in whose interest they were acting.

Secondly, there came the establishment of Labour Exchanges throughout the country, a simple piece of social machinery which enabled men to ascertain whether work existed in their own towns or in what direction it was to be found. It did not create new work, but it lubricated the industrial machine, and it is important that that machine should be properly lubricated. At the present time the Labour Exchanges are finding work every day, on an average, for no fewer than 3,000 people—a total not far short of 1,003,000 per year. Next there came the Insurance Act—the second part dealing with insurance against unemployment, which has been spoken of tonight on both sides of the House in terms of commendation. Two and a quarter million of workpeople are insured against unemployment under the Act, and at the present time, a time of good trade, unemployment benefit is being paid out at the rate of £800,000 per year. The hon. Member who seconded the Motion drew attention to the fact that the cost of administration was very high in proportion to the sums paid out. It is not, however, a fair test to compare your cost of administration with the sum actually being paid out in a time of good trade. You should compare it with the premiums received, as, in another year, the trade may be exceedingly bad, and the amount of unemployed benefit to be paid out greatly increased; consequently your expenditure might be raised fourfold in a single year, while your cost of administration would remain practically the same, and the percentage which the hon. Member quoted, if it were correct, would be reduced by three-fourths in that single year. Therefore, it is obvious that your proper test must be a comparison of working expenses with receipts, and the figure which the hon. Member gave is not one that should be accepted by the House. Further, it should be remembered—

Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to state the amount of premiums paid under the Act?

Not the amount of premiums, but the percentage of the cost of administration to receipts. It is in the neighbourhood of 20 per cent. Let it be remembered that this is a new enterprise, and that the Department which the Board of Trade has had to set on foot is, to a very large extent, a fresh organisation, so there is a prospect that in future years these expenses may, perhaps, be reduced. Let this also be borne in mind, that the machinery which has now been established is capable of dealing with a much larger number of persons than has yet been brought within Part II. of the Insurance Act, and that as the Act is extended and a larger body of work-people is covered by its provisions, so the percentage of cost of administration to receipts will, it is anticipated, be lowered. My right hon. Friend intends in the near future to extend considerably, by Orders of the Board of Trade, as he has power to do, the area covered by this Act, and I believe he is now engaged upon the preparation of certain Orders dealing with particular trades for that purpose. Let it be observed that in addition to the £800,000 a year, which is now being paid out in benefits at this time of good trade, the fund has been able to accumulate no less than £2,800,000, which is there ready to be released when bad times come and the need for further unemployment benefit is felt.

My hon. Friend who moved the Motion laid great stress on the necessity for a proper system of industrial training, and suggested a scheme of farm colonies. I propose to speak later on in respect to farm colonies. Let me say at the outset that I am inclined to think, and I believe he will agree with me, that important as these farm colonies may perhaps be for the training of the inefficient, it is much more important to secure such training for young people as will from the beginning prevent them from becoming inefficient and falling into the class to which he has specially alluded. Particularly is it necessary to deal in every way possible with what are known as "blind alley" employments. The most conspicuous offender in that respect was the State, for the Post Office used to employ a staff of about 14,000 boy messengers and used to dismiss 4,000 a year when they reached the age of sixteen, and, although they had during the two years they were with the Post Office an excellent training in discipline and habits of tidiness, punctuality, and so forth, they had no industrial training which would fit them for any skilled trade and which would secure to them a livelihood during the later years of their lives. I had the privilege, when I was at the Post Office, of redeeming the Department from that reproach. A Standing Committee which I appointed, under the very able chairmanship of Sir Matthew Nathan, worked at this question with the utmost assiduity and great skill. The Committee had the advantage of including my hon. Friend the Member for West Leeds, who moved this Motion, and they found remedies—the details are too numerous for me to explain to-night—on various lines for this defect in our organisation, and at the present time no boy messenger has to be dismissed for the reason that no work can be found for him in the Post Office. Again, we established in the Post Office for these boys compulsory continuation classes, which they have to attend as a condition of their employment, and which, if they desire later on to leave the Post Office, or even if they remain in the Post Office, as most of them do, would stand them in good service later on in life. The after-care committees which have been established in so many towns under the auspices of the education authorities are also a great use in that they give advice and guidance to parents of the boys and girls when they leave school, and enable juvenile labour to be directed into better employment than that which they would otherwise perhaps enter.

There is a Bill now before the House, the Employment of Children Bill, which has analogous objects, and which, I trust, may be passed into law. These methods by which society in various ways is seeking to Prevent young people of the working-classes from falling into the ranks of the inefficients are better means of dealing with unemployment than any measure, no matter how philanthropic or well devised, which aims at rescuing the adult inefficient after he has fallen into that class. Still, the farm colonies have their utility. I have had an opportunity at various times of visiting most of them. I have seen them almost all except Hollesley Bay, about which we used to hear much from my right hon. Friend (Mr. Burns). Merxplas has been, I think, rather unfairly described as a purgatory or worse. That Colony contains some 5,000 men. They are all men who have been committed there for their second or third offence of vagrancy. The institution is conducted with most remarkable economy. I was greatly struck by that. It costs 9d. per day per man, and about one-fourth of that is recovered from the profits of their labour. Their labour, however, I was told, is only on the average worth about one-third of that of an ordinary workman. It takes three colonists to do the work of an independent labourer. The buildings, and even the machinery employed there have been erected or made by the inmates. Large areas of heath land have been reclaimed. The regime is a severe one. It is intended to be a deterrent, but at the same time, and this is a most important fact in connection with Merxplas, almost all the men who have been detained there, even if they have been there for months or for a year or more, almost always come back to the colony, and practically none are ever restored to the ordinary industrial life of Belgium. The reason for that mainly is that they are almost all physical or mental degenerates and, as the director of the institution said to me, you cannot make a strong will in a man who has got a weak will. No amount of training will ever enable you to do that. These are mainly weak-willed persons who are incapable of steady continuous application and industry, and who sooner or later fall back into some institution.

In Germany most of the labour colonies are filled with men who have been once or oftener in prison, with the result that the respectable workmen, I believe, will not go to the German labour colonies because they are the resort of men who have a bad character. The institution at Wallingford, under the auspices of the Union for Christian Social Service, is doing, I believe, excellent work. Many boards of guardians, with the sanction of the Local Government Board, send men there and pay for them at the rate of 10s. 6d. per week, and I believe much good is done to them. My own view is that it is better that these institutions should not be officialised. I think they will effect more good if they are voluntary institutions supervised by persons filled with that enthusiasm and zeal which come from philanthropic motive, and they would be of more value if they are continued on that basis than if they were placed under any official auspices. I agree with the hon. Member (Mr. Keir Hardie) that useful as they may be, valuable as their results in many cases are to individuals, they can never touch the mass of the unemployed, and therefore cannot be regarded as a solution, though they may in many cases be a palliative of unemployment. Let this be remembered also, that if all these measures were carried to their furthest point, still, when trade depression comes, you would have unemployment. If every workman in the country was well trained, if everyone was absolutely sober and industrious, and if you carried to the furthest point your measures for training youth, mentally and industrially, still, when times of trade depression came, you would find unemployment in the form either of short time, or of lessening of work. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that the most valuable expedient of all is that upon which hon. Members have laid much stress, and very properly, that every effort should be made by the State and the local authorities to equalise work, and to lessen the curves of seasonal and cyclical depressions.

To a great extent that is already done voluntarily by individuals. There are numbers of workpeople, of course, who, having in view the effect of seasons upon their trades, combine two trades. You have men who work in brickworks in summer and in gasworks in winter. You have the town of Luton, for example, which was formerly devoted almost entirely to the manufacture of straw hats, and there was considerable seasonal depression every year. You have now in that town the introduction of the industry of manufacturing felt hats, and the operatives who are engaged in these kindred trades are now employed all the year round. The most extreme instance of this tendency is that of Italian labourers, who, for a time leave their own country, go to South America—to the Argentine—to reap the harvest there, and then come back to resume their work in Italy. It is desirable that the State and the local authorities, so far as possible, should endeavour to regulate employment so as to give the largest opportunities of employment when the ordinary industries are slack. My right hon. Friend and predecessor (Mr. Burns), who has taken so keen an interest, as the House and country know, in this matter, never lost any opportunity of impressing upon the local authorities with whom the Local Government Board is in contact the desirability of taking this course. There are two authorities which are in a particularly favourable position in this regard. There is the Road Board. When Parliament passed the Development and Road Improvement Fund Act in 1909 it enacted as follows:—
"In approving, executing, or making advances in respect of the execution of any work under this Act involving the employment of labour on a considerable scale, regard shall be had so far as is reasonably practicable to the general state and prospects of employment."
That is precisely the principle for which hon. Members have been pleading to-night. The Road Board has during the course of its existence received a total income of about £4,000,000. It has set aside specifically for this very purpose a sum of £700,000, which it expects to be able shortly to increase to £1,000,000

Will it be used equally all over the country when depression takes place?

Wherever there is need for new roads and road improvements. This money for the time being is lent on short loans, and it will be available at brief notice. The road authorities have been encouraged to prepare now schemes which are not of an urgent character, so that they may be ready with their proposals when depression comes to provide relief by means of this accumulated fund. Then the Development Board have also taken similar action. A large part of their income is spent on such matters as agricultural education and research, which does not involve considerable employment of labour, and which must be carried on, year in and year out, without very much variation. But the Development Commissioners, I am informed, have deliberately abstained from pressing on such works as harbours, land reclamation, afforestation, and so forth, in order that the plans that have been proposed to them should be put in operation during a period of trade slackness, and they have made it a condition of any grants for afforestation that have so far been made, and they will make it a similar condition in future, that the working plans for afforestation shall provide for variations in the extent of the operations to be carried on in the planting and cutting of timber according to the state of the labour market.

Have any plans actually been handed in for afforestation or a reclamation?

Yes. There are a number which are in a very advanced state, and they are preparing also a chart of the whole country, showing the reclaimable land on which labour might usefully be spent in order that local authorities, should they wish to employ labour in times of trade depression, may have indicated to them where in their districts the labour may be most profitably employed.

Yes. They are accumulating now a fund which I trust will reach at no distant date a sum of about £1,000,000, which can be released also in times of depression. So that the House can see that there will be available, when bad time does really come, £1,000,000 from the Road Board, about £1,000,000 in the hands of the Development Commissioners for work, and in addition about £3,000,000 in the Insurance Fund for distribution among those who are unemployed. And all this money will not only directly benefit those who are unemployed, or will seek relief from the Insurance Fund, but will percolate throughout the whole of the community, and so relieve the seriousness of the trade depression that may occur. Of course, for the workers in many trades these methods are not suitable. The textile operatives in Lancashire, for example, would prefer the method usual in the county of working a shorter time, when trade depression comes, to being offered an opportunity of land reclamation, or any such labour of a character to which they are totally unaccustomed. But this method of providing for works to be put into operation when the right moment arrives, is the best of all methods for dealing with unemployment. There is no pauperisation about it. It does not lead to a slackening of personal effort. It does not involve the provision of made work which must be to some extent, economically wasteful. The men are employed in ordinary conditions, to a great extent with their usual employers, and at work to which they are accustomed, and work which is of economic value to the country as a whole.

I think that we ought to concentrate so far as possible on singling out industries that can be expanded and contracted as the general industries contract or expand, on what might be called buffer industries, the elasticity of which will be of value in times of trade depression. The State, it has been suggested, can in other directions, through the ordinary State Departments, do more than it is now doing. When I was at the Post Office I made careful inquiry into this matter, and I found that in fact the curve of employment during the winter went up and not down, and more men were employed in construction work throughout the country. I am not speaking of the building of post offices, which is the work of the Office of Works, but the erection of telephone and telegraph lines and the laying of underground cables, which went on to a greater extent in the winter than in the summer. The reason very often is that the Department is anxious to get this work finished within the financial year, and very often finds that it is somewhat in arrear when October or November comes, and therefore it comes to take on more labour. There are other reasons also.

With regard to the building of post offices, it is difficult to postpone such buildings to times of trade depression, because, as a rule, they are only erected when really urgently required. It should be remembered, also, that the sites are frequently of very great value, and that it would not be a proper course to wait three or four years for a period of trade depression before a new post office is built. But I think it very possible that there may be directions in which the great spending departments might use the opportunity to equalise the giving of work over a series of years; and the Government have already decided to take the course which has been urged upon them this evening by the hon. Member who moved the Resolution, namely, to make a detailed inquiry, covering all the Departments concerned, into the practicability of postponing works until a period of trade depression comes, and to equalise the work in the winter as compared with the summer. The Treasury, as the Prime Minister some time ago undertook, are now appointing a Committee, the terms of reference to which will be somewhat as follows:—To consider whether any, and if so, what steps might be taken with a view to regularising the total demand for labour from year to year in different seasons by adjusting the distribution of public works conducted or given out by public Departments or by local authorities, with reference to the state of employment in particular trades from time to time. I hope that will meet the views of my hon. Friends. So far as this evening's discussion is concerned, I trust the House will pass my hon. Friend's Resolution, as it is an indication of a desirable line of action to secure the solution of a problem which has long engaged the attention of Parliament.

It is not my intention to move the Amendment which stands in my name on the Paper, urging that the Government should impose a moderate tariff on imported manufactured goods. It has been intimated by Mr. Speaker that it would not be fair to switch off the discussion this evening from the more direct matter which is contained in the terms of the Resolution. I wish to devote myself exclusively to the terms of the Motion, but, at the same time, I would like to call attention to the fact that we have had an allusion to the subject of my Amendment from the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Keir Hardie). It was an exceedingly unfair allusion. The statement contained in the hon. Member's speech is, to the best of my belief and the best of the information which may be in the possession of any hon. Member of this House, absolutely without foundation, namely, that there is a greater amount of unemployment in Canada, Germany, and the United States of America than there is in this country at the present time.

May I say that I had the figures, but in order to save the time of the House, I did not state them, they are, however, in my possession now.

I should like to refer to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board. The first part of it was concerned in showing to the House that everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds. The Post Office, the Department over which the right hon. Gentleman lately presided, at any rate is absolutely guiltless in the matter of unemployment or blind-alley employment, or matters of that kind. The major part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was concerned with what is included in the terms of this Resolution and the various proposals which it indicates for dealing with the problem of unemployment. If I may use a homely expression, it is spreading the existing amount of butter thinner over the same amount of bread. I have heard it stated that the greatest benefactor of a country is the man who will make two blades of grass grow where one grew before; and I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that when he next addresses himself to this subject of unemployment for any of the great Departments of the State, the greatest benefactor would be the man who made two jobs where one existed before, and not the Gentleman who proposes, like the Member for Merthyr Tydvil, an eight-hours day, which may be succeeded by a six-hours day and four-hours day, so as to constantly handicap productive trades of this country more and more, in order to employ our unemployed working classes who now emigrate from this country by hundreds of thousands per year.

Last year 302,000 persons emigrated from this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] I am glad to say, since hon. Members ask me, that out of that number 222,000 emigrated to various areas within the British Empire where they could find employment which they could not find here. That may be a very high commendation of the employment in other and more enlightened parts of the British Empire, but I do not think it is a very high commendation of the system which exists in this country which permits such a state of affairs where that is the only effective remedy we have for un-employment at the present time. The hon. Member for West Leeds (Mr. Edmund Harvey) frankly admitted that relief works were a pis aller. Every hon. Member who has spoken has spoken to the same effect, and I think it is very remarkable in a Debate of this kind, expressly raised on such an important issue, that every Member who has addressed the House from either side could only damn his own recommendations with the very faintest of possible praise, and really from some quarters it seemed as if they did not praise, but condemned the proposals they put down in the Resolution as being effective. I do not think some of the remedies which the hon. Member suggested ought even to be characterised as a pis aller. He suggested, in this connection, the principle of making further provision for planning public works so as to regularise the demand for labour by postponing work which could be executed during periods of trade depression. The question of post office buildings has been adequately dealt with, and I refrain from any comment, but the hon. Member also suggested that orders for boots might be postponed from one period to another—

When I was speaking of that, all that I was referring to was seasonal fluctuation.

I accept the hon. Member's correction, but, as I understood it, he was dealing with the terms of the Resolution, which states that further provision should be made for the planning of public work, whether municipal or national, so as to regularise the demand for labour. That, of course, is a broad principle which would deal in the terms of the Resolution with a trade which is meeting with recurring periods of depression. So I understood the hon. Member, but I understand from him now that he was dealing with the subject of seasonable unemployment, which, I suppose, is intended to be confined to the periods of a single year. The hon. Member for Merthyr says that the problem of unemployment cuts deeper than the remedies suggested. There is a very great truth in that remark, which will meet with acceptance in every quarter of the House. I suggest that the remedies proposed in this Resolution are, even after the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, proved to be absolutely inadequate. It is true that the Resolution mentions chronic under-employment. I do not think that the statistics referred to by the right hon. Gentleman adequately represent the amount of unemployment. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of 8 per cent. in periods of extreme trade depression and 2 per cent. in periods of good trade. Those are trade union figures published in the "Board of Trade Gazette," and they do not at all indicate the amount of unemployment in the country. We have another measure of unemployment since the inauguration of National Insurance. We know what is the percentage of insured workers apart from the trade unions which make returns. I find that for the month of January last, whereas the trade union figure is 2.6, the figure in respect of insured workers is 5.5, or double as much as the trade union figure, what the House should bear in mind is that it is not even the general trade union figure, but simply a figure relating to those trade unions which pay unemployment benefit. There are no figures available in regard to the percentage of unemployment amongst casual workers or non-organised labour. We know that, generally speaking, it cannot be in the mouth of hon. Members opposite to contend anything else, because they advocate—and, I think, rightly—the organisation of labour amongst other things to defend themselves precisely against this particular evil of unemployment. Of course there is a far better percentage of employment amongst organised labour than amongst unorganised and casual labour. The real problem is that of chronic under-employment, which has no relation to the problem of seasonal unemployment, or occasional unemployment depending on trade depression. I would only say that the whole of these suggested remedies do absolutely nothing to increase the net aggregate amount of employment in the country.

The trade union policy, so far from doing anything to meet that problem, has a serious deleterious effect upon employment. Take the case of the building trade. Any policy which limits the output of labour as a part of the fundamental policy, which underlies the system, must diminish the demand for labour, for the reason that it must increase, and increase artificially the cost of every article produced—not only the palace and the warehouse, but also the houses of the poorer classes. It goes round and round in a vicious circle, so that the more the natural output is restricted the less the demand for the labour will be. Therefore for the hon. Gentleman the Member for Merthyr Tydvil to speak of a compulsory eight hours' day obviously will still further limit labour, because the limitation of output has not been found to be efficient in that direction. Instead, therefore, of this being a measure to meet this question of unemployment it is bound to aggravate it, to cause the loss of trade and, consequently, loss of employment. The Labour Exchanges have been referred to. They do not, as the right hon. Gentleman candidly admitted, produce a single additional job. They do nothing to increase employment except the reflex action they have by bringing employer and employed together. So far as they do that, to use the words of the right hon. Gentleman, they lubricate industries, and to that extent they are to the good. But it is only reflex action, and I would call attention to the fact that, so far as last year is concerned—and it is a very important figure to bear in mind in considering this question—there were individual and separate applications to the number of 1,877,000. Out of that number only 656,000 persons—not, as the right hon. Gentleman said, approaching 1,000,000—or very little more than one in three of the applicants were found employment. Let the House remark that that was in a period when we are told the trade of this country was in a state of unbounded prosperity. If in that state of trade our Labour Exchanges could only find a job of some sort for one applicant out of three, I ask the House whether it is not a very much more serious problem than indicated by the trades union figures which are given month by month in the "Board of Trade Gazette"?

Distress committees obviously have had nothing to do with the question of unemployment. They do not find any additional jobs. In 1912, the last year of which we have complete figures, only 24,000 were found employment, and 4,200 were, through the distress committees, assisted to emigrate. The only effective agency now in force in this country—and it is not referred to in the Resolution—is emigration. The right hon. Gentleman said that he did not believe in State-aided emigration. We have no need to spend money on State-aided emigration when we have 302,000 people going out of the country and paying their own expenses during a period of trade boom when everyone is supposed to be going on hummingly, and everybody is supposed to be employed. That is the bald fact, and it is a disgrace to the trade system of this country that it should be so year after year, during a period of trade boom, with the Chancellor of the Exchequer getting up and congratulating himself, the House, and the country on the fact that trade is booming, that Income Tax returns show an increase, and that he has got a surplus in his Budget. All the time there is this great leakage of the best of our working classes, both agricultural and industrial! I do not think it is creditable to the general trade policy of the party opposite that they should allow this Resolution to be brought forward dealing with this grave problem and suggest nothing more, as a method of meeting it, than the planning of public works to regularise the demand for labour, and the provision of graded training institutions.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved, "That this use, while welcoming the decision of the Government to extend the provisions of Part II. of the National Insurance Act to other trades than those now insured against unemployment, and trusting that this may be done without delay, recognises that other measures must be taken to deal with recurring periods of trade depression, as well as with chronic under-employment, and with the case of those unemployed who are temporarily or permanently unfit for ordinary remunerative work, and accordingly urges that, while trade is still good, further provision should be made for the planning of public work, whether municipal or national, so as to regularise the demand for labour, as well as for the organisation, maintenance, and aid of graded training institutions and other agencies."

Government Of Ireland Bill

Postponed Proceeding resumed on Amendment to Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question." Debate resumed.

It being after Eleven of the clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed To-morrow (Wednesday.)

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Adjourned at Six minutes after Eleven o'clock