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Commons Chamber

Volume 61: debated on Thursday 23 April 1914

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House Of Commons

Thursday, 23rd April, 1914

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Private Bills [ Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Skegness Gas Bill [ Lords].

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

Weymouth and Melcombe Regis Corporation Bill,

King's Consent signified; Bill read the third time, and passed.

Inverness Water and Gas Provisional Order Bill,

Considered; to be lead the third time To-morrow.

Local Government Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,

"To confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Brighton, Deal, and Hastings." Presented by Mr. ROBERTSON; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 201.]

East India (Legislative Councils)

Copy presented of Regulations and Rules relating to the Constitution of a Legislative Council for the Central Provinces and of certain Amendments in the Imperial Council Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908

Copy presented of Account showing Receipts and Expenditure on account of Proceedings in connection with the winding up of Companies under the Act during the year ending 31st March, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 196.]

Bankruptcy Act, 1883 (Proceedings)

Copy presented of Account showing the Receipts and Expenditure on account of Bankruptcy Proceedings during the year ended 31st March, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 197.]

Post Office (Foreign And Colonial Parcel Post)

Copy presented of the Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post Amendment (No. 63) Warrant, 1914. Dated 1st April, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Inter-Imperial Trade

Return ordered, showing for the last year for which figures are available:—

  • (a) The value of all articles imported into the United Kingdom from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and British South Africa, respectively, (i) free of duty, (ii) subject to duty;
  • (b) The value of all articles imported into Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and British South Africa, respectively, from the United Kingdom, (i) free of duty, (ii) subject to duty."—[Captain Murray.]
  • Foreign Trade

    Return ordered, showing for the last year for which figures are available:—

  • (a) The value of all articles imported into the United Kingdom from the United States of America, Germany, France, Austria, Russia, Italy, Spain, China, Japan, and the Argentine, respectively, (i) free of duty, (ii) subject of duty;
  • (b) The value of all articles imported into the United States of America, Germany, France, Austria, Russia, Italy, Spain, China, Japan, and the Argentine, respectively, from the United Kingdom, (i) free of duty, (ii) subject to duty."—[Captain Murray.]
  • Oral Answers To Questions

    China Merchants Company

    1.

    asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Banque Industrielle loan of 75,000,000 francs, issued in Paris, is intended in part for the purchase of the undertaking of the China Merchants Steam Navigation Company, which would transfer Yangtze trade to French and German bottoms; if the Government of the latter Power has, as is believed, a large interest in the Banque Industrielle; and whether His Majesty's Government is prepared to acquiesce in the interposition of other nationalities in the affairs of the China Merchants Company?

    As regards the first part of the question, I have no reason to believe that the Banque Industrielle are interested in the matter. As regards the second part, His Majesty's Government have no information. As regards the last part, I am unable to say more than that the affairs of the company are under consideration.

    Persia

    2.

    asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the fact that the determination of Russia to provide herself with extensive and permanent barrack accommodation in the Azerbaijan province is causing anxiety in Persia; has he any official information to the effect that the recall of Russian troops from Persia was intended to be temporary, and took place because of the lack of barrack accommodation; and has he received any confirmation of the alleged promise of the Russian Minister at Teheran to the effect that Russian troops shall be withdrawn from Persia after the coronation of the Shah?

    The answers to parts one and two of the question are in the negative. As regards the last part, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which my right hon. Friend gave him on the 26th ultimo, to which, at present, I have nothing to add.

    May we take it that it is still the intention of the Russian Government to withdraw the whole of their expeditionary force from Persia?

    3.

    asked whether the Russian Government has decided to subsidise a line of fast steamers to run between Odessa and the Persian Gulf ports; does this indicate an increased interest on the part of Russia in the South of Persia; is there a likelihood of Russian war vessels being sent into the Persian Gulf on the ground of a necessity to protect Russian commerce from attacks by pirates; and does the letter from Sir Edward Grey to Sir A. Nicholson, dated the Foreign Office, 29th August, 1907, still represent accurately the policy of His Majesty's Government and the assent of the Russian Government to that policy?

    The answers to the first and last parts of the question are in I he affirmative, and I have no means for forming a reply to the other two parts of it.

    Is it the opinion of the Secretary of State that this action is within the spirit of the limitation of spheres' of influence under the Russian Convention?

    As the hon. Gentleman asks if that is the opinion of the Secretary of State, I shall be glad if he will put down a question for Tuesday, when he will be here.

    Opium Trade

    6.

    asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the stocks of unsold Indian opium in Shanghai are being held by a syndicate of dealers; whether he is aware that the syndicate has realised and is realising from recent sales profits amounting to as much as 100 per cent.; and whether the time has now arrived when we should cease to compel China to permit her subjects to purchase from this syndicate the drug the production of which she prohibits in her own territory because its use is so ruinous to her people?

    I am aware of the circumstances referred to by the hon. Member in the first two parts of the question, but have no information as to the exact amount of profits that the holders of the stocks of Indian opium in China have realised. Under the agreement of 1911 provinces which are shown not to produce or import native opium can be closed to Indian opium, and action will no doubt be taken whenever or wherever this condition exists as it has been in the past.

    Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the opium in question was bought by the syndicate at from 3,000 to 4,000 rupees per chest, and is being sold in China ot 6,000 to 7,000 taels per chest, which represents profits of from 100 to 200 per cent.?

    Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these merchants have been a long time out of their money, and it is a question of justice?

    Irish Language

    7.

    asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Treasury have refused to sanction the scheme for the teaching of Irish in Irish national schools which was most carefully considered and drafted by the general council of county councils, the Catholic school managers of all Ireland, and the school teachers' association; whether, in view of this unanimous demand from these three bodies, representing every interest in Ireland, he can explain the refusal of the Treasury; and whether in educational matters affecting Ireland the views of the people have any weight whatever?

    A scheme, prepared by the Commisisoners of National Education, which proposed a revision of the system of payment of fees for instruction in the Irish language in national schools, was submitted to the Treasury in December last. The result of this proposal would be to throw upon the Vote for National Education a net additional charge for the teaching of Irish eventually amounting to £30,000 per annum. In view of the many other educational purposes for which Grants are required and demanded, the Treasury considered the present system of Grants to be as large as the claims of this branch of instruction, in competition with others, demanded; and consequently they were unable to give their sanction to the proposal of the Commissioners of National Education. The representations of the public bodies referred to in the question were very carefully considered, but the existence of other claims cannot be overlooked.

    Is it the fact that the National Board of Education, representing the public interest in education in Ireland, made this demand?

    Yes; but of course other bodies in Ireland, including some of these same bodies, make other demands, and the Treasury has to consider the relative importance of each. It is not a question of one demand only.

    Have any of these bodies explained what benefit it will be to any living Irishman to be taught the Irish language?

    Outrages (Ireland)

    8.

    asked the Chief Secretary whether he has any official information with regard to the attack made on the 13th April, near Bally gawley, upon two Unionist farmers, Andrew Agnew and Joseph M'Cartney, aged sixty; whether these men were attacked and beaten by a party of Nationalists, two of whom held M'Cartney down while two more beat him till he became unconscious; and whether any arrests have ben made?

    I am informed by the police that the two men mentioned were assaulted by some persons returning from a football match on the 13th instant, some of whom were apparently under the influence of drink, but neither of the men was seriously hurt or rendered unconscious as stated. The men assaulted have so far failed to identify any of the assailants.

    10.

    asked the Chief Secretary whether he has any official information with regard to the attack made, on the evening of 13th April, at Killybearn, upon eight working girls who were proceeding in a conveyance from Cookstown to Coagh for the purpose of attending a ball given by the Orange Order; whether the girls and driver were attacked by a gang of rowdies with volleys of stones and iron nuts; whether one girl sustained a fracture of the skull; and whether any arrests have been made?

    The police inform me that on the night of the 13th instant while eight girls were driving from Cookstown to Coagh to a dance, stones were thrown at them by some persons from the top of a deep cutting through which the car was passing. One girl was struck on the head and her skull fractured, but none of the others received any serious injury. Six persons have been arrested and remanded until the 24th instant. I am happy to be able to state that so far the injured girl is progressing favourably.

    Old Age Pensions (Ireland)

    11.

    asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Margaret Halpin, of Boherbuoy, Limerick, who was born in or about the year 1840, but of whose birth no record can be found, who is a claimant for an old age pension, and who, in support of her claim, is able to produce her marriage certificate which shows that she married a soldier who served in the Crimean War, and who, after her marriage, was in the service with her husband, who died in 1901 after service in the Army; and, seeing that this old widow states that she was twenty-five years of age at the time of her marriage in 1865, and that it is impossible to get any record of her birth, although her two sisters are receiving the old age pension, whether, taking all the circumstances of this case into account, steps will be taken to grant the pension in this case?

    Margaret Halpin's claim for an old age pension was disallowed by the Local Government Board on appeal in October, 1911, for want of evidence of age. The fact that she was married in 1865 could not be accepted as sufficient evidence that she is seventy years of age unless she is able to prove that at the time of her marriage she was over twenty-one years of age.

    Land Purchase (Ireland)

    12.

    asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the Congested Districts Board received a communication from the people of the parish of Mullagh, county Galway, in reference to the contemplated sale of the estate of Miss Browne in the said parish; is he aware that the district contains a number of uneconomic tenants; and whether the tenant on Miss Browne's estate, to wit, Mrs. Timothy Ryan, was approached with a view to acquiring her interests; and, if not, will he direct the Board to open negotiations with the tenant?

    The Congested Districts Board have received the communication referred to which states that there is congestion in the vicinity of Mrs. T. Ryan's farm. The Board have not yet communicated with Mrs. Ryan, but inquiries are being made regarding the farm.

    Housing (Ireland)

    14.

    asked the Chief Secretary if he is aware that some of the tenants on the Ely estate, South Wexford, dwell in houses unfit for human habitation; and whether, seeing that the holdings on the estate are now being vested in the tenants, the Estates Commissioners will consider the advisability of giving Grants or loans to such tenants for the purpose of improving their dwelling-houses or building new ones?

    The holdings on this estate were purchased direct from the owner, under the Irish Land Act, 1903, and have been vested in the purchasers. As regards the allegations that the houses on some of the holdings are unfit for human habitation, this is a matter for the local authorities under the Public Health Acts, but so far as the Estates Commissioners are aware, the facts would not appear to be as alleged in the question. The Commissioners are not prepared to sanction any further advances in respect of the holdings which have been vested in the purchasers, but it is open to the purchasers if they require loans for building purposes to make application for such loans to the Commissioners of Public Works under the Land Improvements (Ireland) Acts.

    May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the Act of 1909 does not provide for loans to tenants through the Estates Commissioners, and further, if the inspector has made any report with reference to these houses?

    Dublin Disturbances (Compensation)

    15.

    asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in accordance with his undertaking in connection with the recent Dublin disturbances, any disciplinary measures have yet been taken with any members of the Royal Irish Constabulary or the Dublin Metropolitan Police Force; if so, in how many cases and to what extent; and whether he is yet able to state what compensation has been paid to those injured or whose property was injured by unjustifiable assault at the hands of police constables?

    A disciplinary inquiry has been in progress for some time into the action of the police in Dublin whose conduct was condemned in the Report of the Dublin Disturbances Commission, but the inquiry is not fully completed, pending the result of civil proceedings which have been taken against some of the Dublin police for damages alleged to have been done by them. The compensation which I stated in this House on the 18th February last I considered ought to be given has been paid.

    Yes, Sir. Compensation has been paid amounting to £42 9s. 4d. to twenty-four persons, and, in addition, compensation amounting to £21 3s. 8d. has been paid to the Dublin Corporation.

    Foot-And-Mouth Disease

    19.

    asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will say by how many beasts, and to what estimated money value, the export of fat pigs from Ireland has fallen in the last six months, in consequence of restrictions in connection with disease, as compared with the corresponding period when last disease free?

    The total number of fat pigs exported from Ireland to Great Britain during the six months ended 31st March last was 117,351, and during the six months ended 31st March, 1912, 278,980, showing a decrease of 161,629 animals of an estimated value of £622,195. For comparative purposes, the period 1st October, 1911, to 31st March, 1912, has been taken, inasmuch as restrictions on exportation were in force during the part of the corresponding period of 1912–1913. It must not be assumed that these figures represent an actual loss or that the decrease shown is wholly due to foot-and-mouth disease restrictions.

    20.

    asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), having regard to the sufficiency of the fifteen-mile radius restriction against foot-and-mouth disease hitherto in Ireland and still in England, and for the information of the sufferers from the fifty-mile radius enforced by the Department this year, what reason, if any, there was for it; what opinion the Department obtained of its legality before enforcing it; the number of families injured by it; their estimated aggregate loss; and when this wide radius will be reduced?

    A fifty-mile radius has not been in use in dealing with outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in Ireland. This question probably refers to the boundary line drawn to admit of the embargo on exportation to Great Britain, which applied to all Ireland, being relaxed as regards the area north of such line, in which no outbreak had appeared. Movement out of the area south of such line was necessarily at the same time prohibited. Steps of this nature are within the powers conferred by Section 22 of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894. It is not possible to answer the latter part of the hon. Member's question.

    The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question, asking on whose opinion this Order was regarded as legal—whether it was the opinion of the legal authorities or the opinion of the officials?

    21.

    asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) by how many beasts and to what estimated money value the export of stall-fed fat stock from Ireland has fallen in the season now closing as a consequence of restrictions in connection with disease, as compared with the most recent normal disease-free season; whether he is aware that many beasts fit for sale last February are still in the stalls, reduced in value £4 a head, plus the cost of feeding in the interval; whether he is aware that some of these cases in North Westmeath are 50 miles from the nearest disease centre; and whether he will give a reference to the specific statutory authority for imposing this loss in these circumstances?

    This year, since 30th January, the exports of fat cattle to Great Britain are short by about 48,000 head in number as compared with the same period last year. The value of these animals is approximately £850,000. It must not be assumed that these figures represent an actual loss. The authority under which the Department deal with the suppression of foot-and-mouth disease is the Act 62 and 63 Vic, chap. 50.

    The right hon. Gentleman has not answered whether he is aware of the specific cases of losses fifty miles from the nearest centre of the disease.

    The only ground upon which the hon. Member can use the figure fifty miles is by drawing a line right through the centre of Ireland and taking everything north of the line as free.

    Does the right hon. Gentleman's Department, or does it not, deny the losses stated in the allegation in the question?

    No, Sir, but we have no means at the present moment of accurately judging of the losses.

    I categorically said that you must not assume that the cattle are not in existence, and that they may not be sold. It is absurd to say that there are losses when there may be no loss.

    Is it or is it not a fact that these animals are reduced in value after two months' feeding?

    Is it not a fact that cattle were selling at the fair at Athy at 31s. 6d. per cwt. live weight, and that in the ordinary course, if there had been no restrictions, these cattle would have brought 36s. 6d. per cwt. live weight?

    86.

    asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will say what special opinion the Board obtained on the legality of the requirement before requiring the Irish Department of Agriculture to enforce a fifty-mile radius of restriction against foot-and-mouth disease, while a fifteen-mile radius is held to be sufficient in both England and Ireland; find if he will give a reference to any statutory authority for requiring the wider restriction to be enforced in Ireland?

    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD
    (Mr. Herbert Lewis, for Mr. Runciman)

    The Orders restricting the movement of animals in Ireland on account of foot-and-mouth disease are made by the Irish Department, and questions concerning the area affected by them should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Vice-President. The Board have no reason to doubt the legality of the Orders, but they have not obtained any special opinion on the point.

    87.

    asked which ports in Great Britain are now open to receive Irish store stock, and which ports in Ireland are open to receive store cattle from Great Britain?

    The following ports in Great Britain are now open for the reception of store stock from Ireland, namely. Ayr, Barrow-in-Furness, Fleetwood, Greenock, Heysham, Holyhead, and Stranraer. The second part of the question should be addressed to my right hon Friend the Vice-President of the Irish Department.

    Will the right hon. Gentleman put it to the President of the Board of Agriculture that it is a great grievance in this country that we cannot send stock to that country when they can to this?

    88.

    asked what is the least period of time since the last outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease that is given to allow an area in Ireland to export store cattle to this country; and what area or distance is now considered safe from a late outbreak before the area is allowed to export store stock to this country?

    It is impossible to lay-down any rule. The extent and the duration of the restrictions depend upon a great variety of circumstances, the evidence as to the origin of the outbreak, the length of time during which disease existed before being discovered, the tracing of contact animals, and so forth. In every case the Board and the Irish Department are in constant communication with one another, with the single object of allowing the trade in store cattle between the affected area and Great Britain to be resumed at the earliest possible moment reasonably compatible with due precautions against the spread of infection.

    I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture a question, of which I have given private notice, namely: Whether he can state when it is likely that Dublin port will be opened for the export of Irish live stock; whether any arrangement is being made for the reception of Irish live stock in the port of Plymouth; and whether he can give the dates, titles and sections of the Orders under which those embargo Regulations are issued?

    After consultation with representatives of the Irish Department, the Board propose to issue an Order, to come into operation on Monday midnight, the effect of which will be to allow fat stock from the southern part of Ireland, excluding the present scheduled areas, to be shipped from Dublin and Wexford for immediate slaughter at the following ports in Great Britain, namely, a portion of Birkenhead, Cardiff, Bristol (Avon-mouth), Manchester, and Deptford. At present there is no suitable landing place for Irish live stock at Plymouth, but the Board will be glad to consider any proposals made to them for the provision of the necessary accommodation. The Regulations governing the importation of Irish live stock into Great Britain are contained in Orders issued from time to time by the Board, under the powers conferred upon them by Section 22 of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894.

    May I ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether any decision has been come to as to the reopening of the port of Waterford?

    Can the right hon. Gentleman inform me when the port of Limerick will be reopened?

    If the hon. Gentleman will put down a question as to the port of Limerick for Monday next, I hope to be able to give him a satisfactory answer.

    asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether the restricted area in county Kildare has been reduced to a radius of five miles from Ballysax, and whether, in view of this limitation, the fair of Kildare on Monday and Tuesday next can be held?

    Kildare Scheduled District at present includes the town of Kildare, but if nothing unforeseen occurs it is proposed to reduce the district by the end of this week. This will exclude the town of Kildare, and admit of the fair being held on Monday and Tuesday next.

    British East African Protectorate

    22.

    asked the Secretary for the Colonies whether any debt against the East African Protectorate is made on account of the Uganda Railway; if not, how does the account stand between the taxpayer and the beneficiary in respect of that undertaking; what is the annual charge upon the Consolidated or other fund for interest; is there any and, if so, what provision for a sinking fund; and how does the account in that behalf also stand?

    Under the provisions of the Uganda Railway Acts, advances up to a total of £5,502,592 have been made from the Consolidated Fund for the purpose of construction, and the expenditure out of these advances had amounted to a total of £5,460,294 8s. 4d. in the period to 31st March, 1913. Repayment of the advances from the Consolidated Fund is being made by instalments of annuities (terminating 15th November, 1925) at the rate of £319,112 a year, for which provision is made on the Colonial Services Vote. No repayment has been made by British East Africa in respect of these advances, and no such repayment is contemplated under the Acts.

    Can the right hon. Gentleman say who are the contracting parties in regard to that contract?

    24.

    asked the Secretary for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that natives recruited for the coastal plantations of British East Africa are locked in carriages sometimes for as long as thirty-six hours; and whether he can state what steps are being taken to remedy the admitted evil results of the practice?

    I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for North Salford yesterday.

    25.

    asked the Secretary for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the evil results of recruiting Kikuyu labour for the copra-producing regions of British East Africa; and whether, in view of the importance of preserving native health and life, he will prohibit the recruiting of the Kikuyu for coastal regions?

    There appears to be considerable difference of opinion among the witnesses as to the results of employing Kikuyu labour on the coast, and I am not prepared to take action, as suggested on the evidence at present before me. I am, however, communicating with the Governor on the subject.

    Somaliland

    23.

    asked the Secretary for the Colonies whether he can state the reasons which have caused the Government to decide on the reoccupation of Burao, in Somaliland, and the reversal of the policy announced to the House by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies and the First Lord of the Admiralty in March and April, 1910?

    I have already stated the reasons in the Debate which took place in this House on the 24th of February, and I do not think that I can usefully add anything to what I said on that occasion.

    Can the right hon. Gentleman see his way to lay further Papers on Somaliland before the Debate takes place on the Colonial Office Vote?

    26.

    asked the Secretary for the Colonies what steps are being taken to do away with the unsatisfactory position which prevails at Berbera and in British Somaliland; if he is aware that our friendly native tribes are being harried by the Mad Mullah incessantly and our troops penned in at Berbera: and that the whole position is detrimental to the prestige and position of this country in the whole of East Africa?

    I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made in the course of the Debate on Somaliland on the 24th of February.

    May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he intends to do nothing but wait for the death of the Mad Mullah?

    I think, if the hon. Member will refer to the Debate, he will find that we are taking immediate action.

    Imperial Defence Conference

    27.

    asked the Secretary for the Colonies when he will be able to lay Papers upon the Table on the subject of an Imperial Defence Conference, as promised; and whether he will consider the desirability of a Conference in order to remove the present misunderstandings between the Dominions affected and the Mother Country?

    Governor Of Tasmania

    28 and 29.

    had on the Notice Paper the following questions to the Secretary for the Colonies: (1) Whether Sir William Ellison Macartney has tendered his resignation as Governor of Tasmania; if not, whether he has requested Sir William Ellison Macartney to resign; and, if not, whether he will do so at the earliest opportunity; and (2) whether he can state on how many occasions, if any, since the foundation of the Commonwealth of Australia a Governor-General or a Governor of any of the States has refused to accept the advice of Ins responsible Ministers; whether his attention has been called to the action of Sir William Ellison Macartney in Tasmania in insisting on a dissolution of Parliament and attaching certain conditions to the constitution of the Cabinet, contrary to the advice of the Prime Minister of Tasmania; whether the Governor consulted the Secretary of State on the subject, and, if so, whether he will place the messages received and sent upon the Table of the House; and whether he has received any messages from the Prime Minister of Tasmania on the subject, and, if so, will he place these communications upon the Table of the House?

    I have been asked to postpone these questions. I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he could get the information by cable?

    I do not think I could get the information by cable. The Governor has asked the Government to wait for the whole of the documents, and I think it is only fair to wait until they arrive.

    Will the right hon. Gentleman not fortify himself meanwhile with the many precedents which exist for such action as that of the Governor-General of Tasmania?

    Mr. MOORE rose—

    I wish to put before the right hon. Gentleman a point for consideration before he gives an answer.

    New Hebrides

    30.

    asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in order to allay the apprehensions of the Governments of Australia and New Zealand, he will extend an invitation to them to be represented on the Conference to be held on the subject of the New Hebrides or, as an alternative, give to these Governments an assurance that ample opportunity will be provided during the progress of the Conference for their point of view to be expressed in anticipation of a final agreement, rather than in subsequent criticism of a tentative arrangement they might find it embarrassing or ineffective to disapprove?

    I have been in correspondence with the Governments of the Commonwealth and New Zealand in regard to the questions to be discussed with the French Government, and, as I stated on the 2nd of March in reply to my hon. Friend's question, I have undertaken to consult them further before any new arrangement is entered into. I need not say that the fullest consideration will be given to any views expressed by the Commonwealth or Dominion Government.

    National Insurance Act

    Deposit Contributors

    31.

    asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commissioners, whether superintendents or agents of approved societies such as the Prudential are allowed to see lists of the names of persons who are deposit contributors under the National Insurance Act; and whether they are allowed to use information of this kind, obtained in their capacity as officials or members of local insurance committees, to circularise deposit contributors and endeavour to urge them to join a particular approved society, while the agents of other approved societies have no means of obtaining lists of deposit contributors?

    The Commissioners have issued a circular to all insurance committees drawing attention to the confidential nature of the information concerning insured persons which comes into their possession in the course of the discharge of their statutory duties. My right hon. Friend has no information which suggests that this principle is not generally adhered to in practice, but he is informed that in an isolated case in Wales where a doubt appeared to exist strong representations to the above effect were at once made to the committee concerned, and no further complaint has been received.

    Declaring-Certificates

    32.

    asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East if he is aware of the feeling among approved societies and their various organisations that the form of declaring-on certificate, Medical 34, issued by the Insurance Commissioners to panel doctors should bear upon it words to the effect that the certificate should be sent in to the society immediately it is signed; and whether he will take steps to have the desired alteration carried into effect?

    The question of the revision of the form in the manner referred to by the hon. Member is now under the consideration of the Insurance Commissioners

    The hon. Gentleman has just made a suggestion which will be acted on if it is a good one.

    Panul Doctors (Stoke-On-Trent)

    33.

    asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East whether his attention has been called to the delay which has occured in paying the doctors on the Stoke-on-Trent panel; and whether the Insurance Commissioners could bring to an end a state of matters which inflicts heavy loss upon the doctors who have undertaken to serve under the Act?

    My right hon. Friend is not aware that any avoidable delay has arisen in the case referred to. He is informed that the doctors in question have already been paid 94 per cent. of the amount estimated to be available for their remuneration, and that, as a matter of fact, the accounts with a view to a settlement are in the hands of the doctors themselves for agreement by them.

    Unemployment (Employer's Refunds)

    80.

    asked the President of the Board of Trade whether an employer may be deprived of the refund under Section 94 (1) of the National Insurance Act, Part II., where the failure to employ the workman continuously for twelve months is due to the fact that the workman whose card had been stamped for forty-six weeks had incapacitated himself for work on one occasion through misconduct?

    It is one of the conditions imposed by the Section referred to that the workman should have been continuously in the employer's service through the prescribed period of twelve months. Each case where a workman is absent from work from any cause is considered on its merits, and I am unable to say without full details of the case whether the circumstances mentioned in the question would be regarded as breaking the continuity of service. I may add that the amending Bill which I have lately introduced proposes, among other things, to abolish the condition of continuous service, which gives rise to the difficulty to which the hon. Member draws attention.

    May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether under the Bill which he proposes to introduce the employer would have any opportunity of getting a rebate in the case of a man who has been continuously employed, or whether he is to be deprived of the benefit?

    I would ask the hon. Member to see me at some other time, when I can explain to him the object of the Bill.

    Mail Steamers (Wages)

    36.

    asked the Postmaster-General if he can state the rate of pay obtaining on the Peninsular and Oriental steamers and all other ships under contract with the Government for carrying mails; and whether the Government will take steps to ensure that fair and reasonable wages are paid on all vessels receiving Government subsidies?

    The Fair-Wages Resolution has never been considered applicable to contracts with steamship companies for the conveyance of mails. Inasmuch as steamship companies, like railway companies, are mainly engaged in large commercial operations, and the conveyance of mails is only an incidental part of the general business of transport on which their labour force is employed it would not appear to be properly applied to them.

    Post Office

    Portree Office

    37.

    asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that a mason, Angus Campbell, was employed by the Post Office at Portree and, in the course of his employment, fell from a scaffolding and was killed; if he is aware that the Post Office authorities have refused to recognise the claim of the widow for compensation; and if he will say on what grounds compensation has been refused?

    I am advised that no legal liability under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, rests on the Post Office in this case. I understand that legal proceedings may be taken by Mrs. Campbell; and I am making further inquiry, and will communicate with the hon. Member.

    Postal Orders

    38.

    asked the Postmaster-General whether he can state the weekly issue of 6d. postal orders from the Post Office for the last six months?

    There are no figures available to show how many 6d. postal orders are sold weekly. The average number paid weekly during the last six months was 268,892.

    Sub-Postmasters

    39.

    asked when it is intended to make payment to salaried sub-postmasters for their work in connection with the National Insurance Act?

    I would refer the hon. Member to the answer to a similar question on the 4th March last. The report of the Departmental Committee on Units is still under consideration, and I am unable to say when it will be possible to make the payments to salaried sub-postmasters for this work.

    Postmen (Classification)

    40.

    asked when the new classification of postmen will be taken in hand; and on what basis, whether of population, cost of living, or any other consideration, it is proposed to reclassify them?

    The question of reclassifying provincial post offices for scales of pay of the outdoor force has been already taken in hand in accordance with the recommendations of the recent Select Committee, but, as was contemplated by the Committee, it may be some considerable time before the matter can be settled. All essential considerations will be taken into account in fixing the revised classification, but I am unable to make any definite statement at present.

    Is the Postmaster-General prepared to agree to placing all the postmen in the area of the London County Council in one grade, instead of having several grades as at present?

    Holt Committee's Report

    42.

    asked the Postmaster-General if, in view of the acknowledged rise in the cost of living during the last few years, he will take steps to increase the wages of the employés in all branches of the postal service on a more equitable basis than that now suggested; if, in arriving at the different amounts of increase to be allowed in the different classes both in London and in the provinces, he will pay due consideration to the Board of Trade Returns dealing with the recent rises both in the cost of living and in house rent; and if he will so adjust the wages of all grades of all sections so that no employé shall receive less than a 15 per cent. increase on the wages paid in 1905?

    The recent Select Committee on the Wages and Conditions of Employment of Post Office Servants stated that certain considerations which they mentioned, including the rise in the cost of living, "are relevant in fixing the remuneration which should be given to Post Office servants, and attention has been given to them in the recommendations which your Committee have made." The Government have accepted the scales of pay which the Committee recommended on those considerations, and my right hon. Friend is not prepared to propose a further adjustment on the basis suggested.

    Has the cost of living increased by 11.3 per cent., as shown in the Holt Committee Report, and will the proposed increase amount to not more than 4.3 per cent.?

    58.

    asked if the Prime Minister will now state on what date he will give a day for the discussion of the Report of the Holt Commission?

    59.

    asked whether the Prime Minister can grant a day for the discussion of the Holt Report and the reforms proposed by the Government in pursuance of the Report's recommendations?

    68.

    asked whether the Prime Minister can arrange to give the House an early opportunity of considering the question of a penny postage rate between France and this country?

    In regard to these questions an opportunity will arise when the Post Office Estimates are taken next week.

    In view of the gravity of the case, may we have the advantage of the right hon. Gentleman's presence?

    I really cannot guarantee that. I have a number of things to look after.

    Can the right hon. Gentleman say why his duties make it necessary for him to be absent so much more than any previous Prime Minister?

    Telephone Service

    41.

    asked the Postmaster-General whether, having regard to the fact that the revised schedule of telephone rates has not been published before Easter, as was contemplated, he can now state the date when the new rates wall be announced?

    The subject is one of great complexity, but my right hon. Friend hopes to obtain the authority of the Treasury for his proposals with regard to the revision of telephone charges at an early date and to announce them immediately afterwards.

    Is the hon. Gentleman aware that so long ago as June of last year the Postmaster-General promised that the rates would be published, and has not the time arrived now for that to be done?

    The Postmaster-General is now awaiting Treasury sanction, and will publish them immediately when that is obtained.

    When they are published, will the Members of the House of Commons receive them simultaneously with outside bodies?

    Will the Postmaster-General consider the question of trunk rates for Middlesex?

    School Building (Reconstruction)

    43.

    asked the President of the Board of Education (1) what are the rules of the Board for the protection of children and teachers and for the efficient performance of the school work during the time that a school building and playground are in the hands of the builders for reconstruction; (2) whether it is the practice of the Board, when sanctioning plans for altering or rebuilding a school, to attach any condition as to the provision of suit able accommodation for the school during the process of reconstruction, and to protect the children from injury; and (3) whether it is the practice of the Board of Education to sanction the rebuilding of a school whilst the scholars are in attendance, and to allow a school building and playground to be placed unreservedly in the hands of builders and their workmen without any educational supervision?

    The Board have not found it necessary to make any such rules as he suggests. The repair and rebuilding of school premises are generally carried out during school holidays. If the work has to be done while the scholars are in attendance the local education authority and the managers are responsible for the protection of the scholars and teachers from injury and of the school work from any avoidable disturbance. If the building work prevents the school premises from being used for a considerable time or involves any substantial interference with school work, the Board may require temporary accommodation to be provided, and in that case satisfy themselves as to its suitability.

    Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in London especially several eases have recently arisen in which the difficulties referred to have recurred in quite an acute form?

    I am not aware of that. I shall be very glad if my hon. Friend will give me particulars.

    Political Pensions

    45.

    asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the granting of a political pension in place of that which lapsed on the death of Lord Cross; and whether he will consider the propriety of modifying the declaration required from a political pensioner before making any recommendation?

    The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, I think that an undertaking should be exacted similar to that adopted by Mr. Gladstone.

    May we take it then that these facts which have come to light have made the Prime Minister quite aware that some change ought to be made in connection with these pensions?

    I think that if the undertaking suggested by Mr. Gladstone was uniformly enforced it meets the requirements of the case.

    61 and 62.

    asked the Prime Minister (1) whether the Bight Honourable Lord George F. Hamilton is a political pensioner of the first class and draws £2,000 per annum from the Treasury; what are the terms of the declaration made entitling him to such pension; whether he is aware that Lord George F. Hamilton is director of the American Freehold Land Mortgage Company of London, director of the Bank of Australia, director of the Chartered Bank of India, Australia, and China, chairman of the Metropolitan District Railway Company, director of the Whitechapel and Bow Railway Company, deputy-chairman of the Phoenix Assurance Company, director of the Union Marine Insurance Company, deputy-chairman of the Underground Electric Railway Company of London, and chairman of the Central London Railway Company; and whether he will take steps to have his name removed from the Civil List; and (2) whether the Right Honourable Lord Balfour of Burleigh is a political pensioner of the second class and draws £1,200 per annum from the Treasury; what are the terms of the declaration made entitling him to such pension; and whether he is aware that Lord Balfour of Burleigh is governor of the Bank of Scotland, chairman of the City of San Paulo Improvement and Freehold Land Company, chairman of the San Paulo Railway Company, director of the Great Northern Railway Company, director of the Forth Bridge Railway Company, chairman of the Imperial and Foreign Corporation, chairman of the Pacific Phosphate Company, director of the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, director of the Western Telegraph Company, member of the Council of the Russian and English Bank; and, if so, will he take steps to remove the name of Lord Balfour from the Civil List of pensioners?

    Lord George Hamilton and Lord Balfour of Burleigh are political pensioners of the first and second class respectively, and receive the pensions stated. For the terms of the declaration made by them on application for the award of pensions I will refer my hon. Friend to my reply of Tuesday last. I am not aware of the emoluments derived by the Noble Lords from the sources quoted, but I am confident that, if they were such as to render the retention of their pensions inconsistent with the terms upon which the pensions were granted, they would inform me of the fact.

    May I ask my right hon. Friend how recent was the declaration given in the sense required by Mr. Gladstone to surrender the pension in the event of their pecuniary circumstances improving to a material extent?

    There has been no case in my time, and I can only speak from what I have learned. In the case of Lord Balfour of Burleigh I know that undertaking was given, and I have every reason to think it was given by Lord George Hamilton.

    Will the right hon. Gentleman send to all political pensioners copies of the questions and answers that have recently been made upon the matter?

    They are a very small body, and I think they would probably read the newspapers.

    May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will inquire from those pensioners the total amount of income derived from those companies, so that he can form his own judgment as to whether they are entitled to pensions or not?

    I cannot do that. This is a matter of honour. Any distinguished person who has been in the service of the State and who is entitled to receive a pension of this kind would probably voluntarily and spontaneously give it up.

    Will my right hon. Friend ask the Noble Lords the question: Whether they will supply him with the grounds on which they opposed the Government old age pension scheme?

    British Army

    Army Council

    46.

    asked whether an Army Council can be held without any member of the Army being present; and what civilian Members of the Government would form a quorum in that event?

    The answer is in the affirmative. I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the Letters Patent constituting the First Army Council, and to the Order in Council (CD. 2851) of 10th August, 1904.

    Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Army Council held any meeting in the weeks after the crisis at which no soldiers were present?

    Non-Commissioned Officers And Men Married Off The Strength

    53.

    asked the Prime Minister which of the recommendations made by Mr. Tennant for improving the position of non-commissioned officers and men married off the strength in the Army the Government propose to adopt; and how many non-commissioned officers and men will be benefited thereby?

    As the hon. Member was informed on Tuesday, no statement can at present be made on this subject.

    Does the Government throw over this promise made by the late Secretary of State for War also?

    No; I think the hon. Member is unreasonable in this matter. It is impossible for the right hon. Gentleman in undertaking the duties of the War Office to settle everything at once.

    Established Church (Wales) Bill

    57.

    asked if the Prime Minister will appoint a small Committee of this House to scrutinise the protests signed by over 103,000 Nonconformist adults in Wales against the Disendowment Clauses of the Established Church (Wales) Bill?

    I do not see my way to do this. I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on 23rd February to the hon. Member for the Denbigh District.

    If the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to have a scrutiny made into this protest, will he restrain his supporters from throwing doubts upon it by saying that it was sent to the right hon. Gentleman in order that * it might not be scrutinised?

    I never made that statement. I said that the petition should be presented to the House of Commons, and be examined by the Petitions Committee.

    Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that during the whole Debate on the Bill hon. Members opposite threw doubts on the bona fides of the petition, and, if he will not have it scrutinised, have they any right to throw doubts upon it?

    Irish Cattle Trade

    64.

    asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the opinion prevailing in Ireland that the powers conferred upon the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries by the Contagious Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, are being unfairly and unreasonably used in the interests of English stockowners, to the detriment and possible ruin of Irish owners, and in a manner totally at variance with the intentions of the authors of the Act, he will grant an inquiry by a suitable Committee into the administration of the Act and the Regulations made by the English Department affecting the landing and treatment of Irish cattle?

    I see no reason to alter the decision which I conveyed to the hon. Member on 2nd March on this subject.

    Motor Car Lights

    69.

    asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has obtained a legal opinion on the question of proceeding against the owners of motorcars which carry dazzling head-lights and drive with these in the Metropolis to the common danger?

    I am advised that it might be possible to take proceedings if in any case it could be proved by definite evidence that the driving of a car with dazzling head-lights was an actual cause of danger; but, in the absence of specific regulations on the subject, proceedings could not be taken against an owner merely on the ground that danger might, in the opinion of the police, ensue from his use of too powerful lights.

    Destruction Of Dogs (Prosecution)

    70.

    asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if any action has been taken by the police against the woman who deliberately shut a number of dogs up in a deserted house so that nearly all died of starvation?

    A warrant has been issued, at the instance of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, for the arrest of this woman, who has, however, not yet been found.

    Police Matrons

    71.

    asked the Home Secretary whether he will give further consideration to the questions addressed to him on 14th May, 1912, with reference to the conditions of service of matrons in police stations; whether they are on duty from 4 p.m. to midnight in one week and from midnight till 10 a.m. the next, and on* alternate Sundays from 10 p.m. till 10 a.m. Monday, and receive no pension, no police medical attendance, and no pay during sickness nor during their one week's holiday; and if so, whether he can see his way to improve the position of these women, whose duties are arduous and often repulsive and dangerous?

    This question has received careful consideration. The hours of attendance vary according to local circumstanes, but may be said to be approximately as stated, except that during most of the night time they are resting and are provided with beds, and that they are relieved from attendance before 10 a.m. whenever possible. Arrangements for a weekly rest day have also been made. The appointment is not pensionable, and matrons do not receive ordinary pay during sickness and annual leave, but they receive sickness benefit and medical attendance under the National Insurance Act.

    Children (Theatrical Performances)

    72.

    asked the Home Secretary whether his attention had been called to the case of Miss Phyllis Bourke, who has been refused a licence to perform after 10 p.m. in Mr. Galsworthy's play; and whether, if an appeal is made to him, he will favourably consider the grant of a licence to her?

    My attention was called to the matter last Monday, and it was then explained to the manager that I had no power to take any action. Under the provisions of the Act it is in the discretion of the magistrate to say what restrictions and conditions are to apply to the employment of children in theatres, and there is no appeal to me.

    Is it not the case that the magistrate invited the applicant to appeal to the Secretary of State if he disagreed with the magistrate?

    Metropolitan Police

    73.

    asked the Home Secretary whether, owing to the increase in the cost of living or other causes, the increases of pay granted about three years ago to the police of the large cities of the North have been revised recently; will he say how the new scale of pay for constables in Liverpool, Sheffield, and St. Helens compares with that of the Metropolitan force; does the minimum pay for constables in the Metropolitan force remain at 27s. and the maximum at 35s. for men under fifteen years' service; and what are the minimum and maximum rates for Liverpool, Sheffield, and St. Helens?

    The minimum and maximum rates of pay for constables in the Metropolitan Police are as stated. The scales of pay and pension have recently been revised in Liverpool and Sheffield. In the former the minimum and maximum rates of pay of police under fifteen years' service are 30s. and 40s. respectively, but this includes a rent-aid allowance, which in the Metropolitan Police is granted in addition to the ordinary rate of pay. In Sheffield the minimum and maximum rates are 28s. and 38s. respectively. In the case of both towns, however, the rates of pension are materially less than in the case of the Metropolitan Police. I have not yet received information as to St. Helens.

    Is it not the fact that the amount granted in aid towards the cost of housing of the Metropolitan Police is so small that it does not amount to the maximum amount paid now to the police of Liverpool?

    Probably the maximum amount for fifteen years' service, having regard to the pay, house allowance, and advantage of pension, is approximately the same in the case of London as in Liverpool, but after fifteen years' service the London policemen receive an additional half-crown?

    Is it not the fact that the minimum amount paid towards the relief of rent is 1s. 6d., and the maximum amount 2s. 6d., and therefore the amount in total is less than Liverpool?

    The hon. Member omitted the third factor, the value of the pension allowance.

    74.

    asked whether the Metropolitan Police who were sent to South Wales have ever received their pay for extra duty during the coal strike in 1912?

    No Metropolitan Police were sent to South Wales in 1912. All the men employed in South Wales on a previous occasion had received their pay and allowances long before the coal strike in 1912.

    Naval Accountant Branch Committee

    77.

    asked when the Report of the Naval Accountant Branch Committee will be published?

    I must refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Plymouth on the 3rd of this month.

    Exports

    79.

    asked the President of the Board of Trade the value of exports per head of the population in 1913 from the United Kingdom, United States of America, Germany, and France?

    The values of the exports of domestic produce and manufactures during 1913 from the countries specified, per head of their respective populations, were as follows:—United Kingdom, £11 8s. 3d.; United States of America, £5 4s. 3d.; Germany, £7 7s. 9d.; and France, £6 18s. 7d. All these figures are provisional.

    Local Authorities (Expenditure)

    81.

    asked the President of the Local Government Board what was the total expenditure of local authorities in England and Wales on education, main roads, police, and the administration of the Poor Law, in the years 1902 and 1912, respectively; and what portion of the sum so used was raised from rates, and the amount obtained from Imperial taxation and other sources in the two years?

    The information available on the points mentioned in the question is contained in the recently issued Appendix to the Report of the Departmental Committee on Local Taxation. I will send the hon. Member the references.

    Roads (Classification And Subsidation)

    82.

    asked whether it is proposed to take any steps towards a classification and subsidation of urban and rural roads throughout the country, as suggested in the statement by Sir George Gibb published in the Appendix to the Report of the Departmental Committee on Imperial and Local Taxation?

    Government Typists

    83.

    asked the Secretary to the Treasury if any reply has yet been made to the memorial addressed to the Treasury in December, 1911, by the superintendents and chief superintendents of typists serving in Government offices; and, if not, if he will state the reasons for the delay in dealing with the matter?

    No, Sir; the answer to the memorial has been necessarily postponed pending the publication of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service and consideration of its recommendations.

    I understand that there have been certain general recommendations, which are now being considered.

    Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is three years since the memorial was sent in, and that these workers have never received any reply whatever?

    We are dealing with it now in connection with the consideration of the Royal Commission's Report.

    Moneylenders' Addresses

    84.

    asked whether the regulations issued by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue under Sections 2 and 3 of the Moneylenders Act, 1900, permit a moneylender to register as one of his addresses a place in which he has no office or residence, but to which he or his agent resorts for the purpose of carrying on his business with persons in the street; and, if so, whether this construction of the Act has the support of the Law Officers of the Crown?

    The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, there does not appear to be any such doubt as to the proper construction of the Act as to make a reference to the Law Officers necessary.

    Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue have decided, at any rate, in correspondence, that a moneylender may register a street comer as a statutory address under the Moneylenders Act?

    The Commissioners of Inland Revenue, before they decided, took legal advice. But I will inquire further.

    Mrs Pankhurst's Arrest (Glasgow)

    85.

    asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he has received any reports as to the circumstances connected with the recent arrest of Mrs. Pankhurst in Glasgow; and whether he has been asked by the corporation of the City of Glasgow to appoint a commissioner to hold an inquiry into the matter?

    The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, I received yesterday a communication from the magistrates committee of the Corporation of Glasgow, forwarding for my consideration various documents bearing on the subject, which I have not yet had time to consider, but no request of the nature indicated is made by the committee.

    When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to be able to give an answer to this suggestion by the corporation?

    Eggs (Importation)

    89.

    asked what is the present total number and value of eggs imported into Great Britain: and what proportion of these come from Siberia?

    The total quantity of eggs imported into Great Britain last year was 2,586,855 thousands, of which 1,274,110 thousands came from Russian northern ports. The values were £9,582,476 and £4,401,012 respectively. The imports from Siberia cannot be distinguished.

    Government Of Ireland Bill

    Exclusion Of Ulster

    9.

    asked what amounts of money each year would have to be provided from outside sources for an Irish Home Rule Parliament if Ulster were exempted from Home Rule?

    I would refer the hon. Member to the statement of the Prime Minister in reply to similar questions addressed to him on the 16th March.

    Has the right hon. Gentleman been in communication with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to it?

    Royal Irish Constabulary

    16.

    asked the Chief Secretary whether he has now been able to communicate with the Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary and ascertain whether a strengthening of the police force in the province of Ulster was carried out between the 1st and 21st day of last month; and, if so, will he give the number of constables that were despatched to Ulster and the stations or, if preferred, the counties from which they were drawn?

    There was no strengthening of the police force in the province of Ulster during the period mentioned.

    Business With Ulster Firms

    17.

    asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution passed by the Roscommon County Board of the Ancient Order of Hibernians that the representatives of Ulster firms doing business in the West of Ireland must be boycotted until a permanent change in their attitude towards the Government of Ireland Bill is shown by the heads of such firms in Ulster; and whether he will consult the Law Officers of the Irish Government as to whether such a resolution is a violation of the Corrupt Practices Act?

    I have seen a newspaper report of the resolution referred to. I am advised that assuming the authenticity of the resolution it cannot be said that it comes under any of the provisions of the Statute quoted by the hon. Member.

    Movement Of Troops

    18.

    asked the Chief Secretary if any communication on behalf of the Government was made to the police authorities in Belfast or elsewhere with reference to the military operations recently projected in Ulster; and, if so, whether he will give the tenor thereof?

    The only communication on behalf of the Government made to the police authorities at Belfast was that the Commissioner of Police at Belfast was directed to assist Sir Nevil Macready in the duties attached to his appointment as General Officer Commanding the Belfast district.

    Is it not a fact that the War Office recently stated that, owing to a misapprehension, the police had been asked as to whether they would give their assistance in the quelling of any disturbances, and that that emanated from the military officers?

    May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will consult the Secretary of State for War on this question?

    47.

    asked the Prime Minister which Cabinet Minister promised the help of the Navy in the late Ulster crisis, with its battleships, destroyers, and howitzer ammunition and landing parties?

    54.

    asked whether the Prime Minister was aware on the 23rd March that orders had been given by the First Lord of the Admiralty, on the 19th and 20th March, sending seven vessels of the Third Battle Squadron and eight destroyers of the Fourth Flotilla and the collier "Salvus" to Lamlash?

    No such promise as is suggested in Question 47 was ever made by any Cabinet Minister. The movement of the Battle Squadron with its attendant ships to Lamlash was decided on by the Cabinet on 11th March, and my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty had full authority from the Cabinet and from me to make such a movement. The date and details of the orders were left to the discretion of the Admiralty. This movement of the Battle Squadron was not, and was never intended to be, a part of the precautionary measures to safeguard the ammunition depots, and in fact the Battle Squadron could no I have arrived at Lamlash at the earliest until two days after they were completed. The Admiral was not ordered to report himself to the Admiralty in London on his way North earlier than Monday, the 23rd. On the morning of the 21st, when I discussed the general position with my right hon. Friend, he told me that the Battle Squadron was on its way home from Arosa Bay, and in view of the prevalent excitement in this country, and the fact that the precautionary measures in Ireland had been peacefully carried out, I suggested to him that the movement of the ships should be delayed, and my right hon. Friend gave orders to defer it until the Easter leave was completed. I may add that my statement to the Press on the following day, in regard to the operations which had been carried out in Ulster, that the only naval movement connected with them was the assistance of the two cruisers—I ought to have added "and one destroyer"—was perfectly accurate.

    Does the right hon. Gentleman's statement also refer to the eight destroyers of the Fourth Flotilla?

    Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to correct the OFFICIAL REPORT of his answer to my question on the 24th March, when he said that he knew nothing about eight destroyers?

    If the right hon. Gentleman finds that the words are exactly the words I quoted—"I know nothing about the eight destroyers "—will he follow the prevalent Government precedent?

    48.

    asked the Prime Minister what explanation General Paget has given to the War Office on the subject of his mistake with regard to the verbal orders received from the late Secretary of State for War?

    I would refer the hon. Member to Sir Arthur Paget's statement published in the White Paper.

    49 and 50.

    asked the Prime Minister (1) whether private Members in moving suggested Amendments to the Government of Ireland Bill are, or will be, subject to the same restrictions as are at present imposed on them in moving Amendments in Committee on any Bill before the House; and (2) whether it will be competent for Ministers, in the case of the Government of Ireland Bill, to suggest Amendments involving any increased charge without a previous empowering Resolution passed by a Committee of the House?

    These questions involve the procedure of the House, and, if and when they arise, must be settled by the authority responsible for that procedure.

    51.

    asked the Prime Minister whether Sir Arthur Paget was debarred from explaining to the officers of the 3rd Cavalry Brigade, in reply to General Gough's communication of 20th March, that the duty ordered them consisted of the maintenance of order and the preservation of property, and did not involve the initiation of active military operations against Ulster?

    As I have already stated, Sir Arthur Paget considered that the matter had passed out of his hands, as the officers had already been summoned to London before he had time to deal with their letter.

    May I ask whether, in fact, he was debarred, in the view of the War Office, from answering this question, or whether it was that he preferred that it should be answered by his superiors rather than by himself?

    52.

    asked the Prime Minister why the authorities of the War Office did not explain to the officers of the 3rd Cavalry Brigade in Ireland on 21st March that the duty ordered them by Sir Arthur Paget on the 20th consisted of the maintenance of order and the preservation of property, and did not involve the initiation of active military operations against Ulster?

    The officers were summoned to London, and the matter was discussed with them there.

    Does not the right hon. Gentleman see from the telegram that was read by the First Lord of the Admiralty that these officers were in the greatest uncertainty and distress on this point up to a late hour on Saturday, 21st March, and would not an answer have relieved them?

    They had then been summoned to London. On Monday morning they went to the War Office, and there put themselves in communication with the Secretary of State.

    If an answer would have relieved them, why did the Minister insist on their presence in London?

    The letter was brought over by the officers on that morning when they came.

    Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to say why Sir Arthur Paget made no attempt on the 21st March to correct the misapprehension which he knew existed in consequence of his speech on the 20th?

    I have already said that he considered the matter had passed out of his hands, the officers having been summoned to London.

    My question is not in respect of these officers; it is intended to refer to all the officers of the Cavalry Brigade, except those of the 5th Lancers, then in Dublin.

    The commanding officers and the brigadier were all summoned to London.

    55.

    asked the Prime Minister whether any written protest was made by any of the officers serving at the Curragh and lodged with Sir A. Paget on the 21st March last; if so, whether such protest was forwarded by Sir A. Paget to the Secretary of State for War; and what action has been taken upon it?

    The only protest received as far as I am aware is that published in the While Paper.

    56.

    asked the Prime Minister if he will undertake that, failing the submission of the questions at issue to the country in the meantime, no further effort shall be made to overcome by force the opposition of Ulster to separation from the United Kingdom, without affording Parliament an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the use of the Army and Navy for such a purpose?

    I have nothing to add to what I have already stated in the House on this subject.

    60.

    asked the Prime Minister whether identification tickets were issued to part of or all of the troops to be employed in the operations against Ulster; whether such tickets are issued only on active service to identify dead bodies in the field; and whether there is any instance of the issue of such tickets during peaceful manœuvres or when precautionary military measures alone were contemplated?

    I am informed by the Irish Command that, as far as can be ascertained, the reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. The rest of the question does not arise.

    Colonel Hogg

    63.

    asked the Prime Minister whether Colonel Hogg has sent to the War Office any communications addressed to him criticising his action in retaining his command?

    Royal Navy

    75.

    asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any steps were taken to ascertain the feelings of the lower deck at any of His Majesty's ports as regards serving against Ulster?

    I am waiting for those charges to be formulated. As soon as they are, I will grant the earliest possible day in my power.

    Has the right hon. Gentleman received any so-called private telegrams from any officer?

    Is the right hon. Gentleman entitled to make imputations of that kind? [HON. MEMBERS: "So-called telegrams!"]

    Do I understand you, Sir, to rule that if any hon. Member breaks the Rules of Order, any other Members may break the Rules of Order? If so, hon.—[Interruption.]

    On the point of Order. May I be permitted to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is entitled to answer my hon. Friend in such a manner?

    Charges Against Prime Minister

    I bog to ask the Prime Minister a question of which I have given private notice, namely, whether his attention has been called to a notice of Motion standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Clackmannan and Kinross (Mr. Eugene Wason), and in the names of as many other hon. Members as the Rules of this House permit, in the following terms:— "That in the opinion of this House the Leader of the Opposition should substantiate or withdraw without delay in this House the charges of falsehood which he has brought against the Prime Minister."

    And whether he will grant the earliest possible day for the discussion of that Motion?

    I am waiting for those changes to be formulted. As soon as they are, I will great the earliest possible day in my power.

    Trade Disputes (Employment Of Troops)

    I beg to ask the Prime Minister a question of which I have given private notice, namely, whether, in view of the Debate yesterday on the conditions under which troops may be employed to quell civil disturbances arising out of trade disputes, he will appoint a Committee to inquire into and report upon the various points raised?

    I have received representations from many of my political Friends in the same sense. I intend to ask the House to appoint such a Committee.

    Will my right hon. Friend see that the terms of reference to the Committee are not confined simply to trade disputes, as there are other aspects of the problem?

    United States And Mexico

    I beg to ask the Prime Minister a question of which I have given private notice, namely: Whether His Majesty's Government have any statement, to make with regard to the war which has broken out between the United States of America and Mexico; whether it is not possible for this country in the interests of humanity, and having regard to the large interests which Great Britain has in Mexico, to offer its good offices in accordance with The Hague Tribunal to bring about an early termination of hostilities?

    I have had very short notice of this question, and in view of the importance of the matter raised, I must ask my hon. Friend to put it on the Paper for next week. Perhaps the Foreign Secretary will be back, if my hon. Friend will put the question down for Tuesday.

    Arising out of that answer, for which I thank the right hon. Gentleman, may I ask whether His Majesty's Government are keeping in mind the fact that, according to Article III. of the Convention, other Powers may, of their own initiative, offer their good offices after hostilities have commenced, and that such action would not be considered as an unfriendly act?

    His Majesty's Government are most carefully watching the situation.

    Business Of The House

    May I ask the Prime Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]—what the business—[Laughter]—will be next week? I understand that at the request of my Noble Friend (Lord Edmund Talbot) it has been agreed that Tuesday and Wednesday, I think, should be devoted to a Motion from these benches in connection with the recent movement of troops. In connection with that I should like to say in regard to the interposition of the Prime Minister just now, that the charges mentioned by the hon. Member behind him were stated by me in the plainest and most unequivocal language in this House on the 30th of March last. I shall take the opportunity on this Motion to repeat them, and shall be glad then to have the explanation of the Prime Minister. With further reference to this particular Motion, would the Prime Minister consent to supplement the information contained in the White Paper by obtaining from General Paget, and circulating to the House, his report of the communication verbally made to him by Cabinet Ministers when he was in London, and also his account of what he said to his officers at the second conference referred to in the White Paper, when he said he would give details of the movements which were contemplated in Ulster?

    This is the first I have heard of a request for a Motion; therefore, the provisional arrangements I have made for next week will have to be, I suppose, modified.

    On Monday, we propose to take the Second Reading of the Plural Voting Bill.

    Tuesday and Wednesday, we shall very gladly give to the discussion of the Motion, the terms of which the right hon. Gentleman has not announced, and which, I hope, will very soon appear on the Paper.

    On Thursday, my right hon. Friend will introduce the Budget.

    In regard to the request for the publication of supplementary documents from General Paget, as at present advised, I do not think it will be possible to comply with the request of the right hon. Gentleman, but I will consider it.

    The Motion will be moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain), who is not here to-day. I should like to consult him before the terms are put down, but it is intended that the words shall embody a request asking for an impartial inquiry into recent events. [HON. MEMBERS: "Whitewash!" and "No more Marconi Committees!"]

    May I ask, Mr. Speaker, if it was not the original intention of the Government to have had the Holt Report debated next week; whether it is necessary to waste two days upon this other matter, and whether the right hon. Gentleman will not reconsider his decision to give two days, so that we might have one of the days for a discussion of the Holt Report, which is of very great importance?

    We certainly intended, if this notice of Motion had not been given, to devote Tuesday to a discussion of the Post Office Vote in Committee of Supply. In view of what the right hon. Gentleman said, I cannot say that I think Tuesday and Wednesday would be more profitably occupied than in the way he has described.

    May I ask the right hon. Gentleman that when he puts down the Post Office Estimates for Debate he will have it specifically understood that the first whole complete day will be occupied with the Holt Report; otherwise we may have a roving discussion?

    I think it is very reasonable that that should be the first topic to be discussed. I do not know that it will occupy a whole day.

    May I ask the right hon. Gentleman when he hopes to find time for the Motion which is down in his name, and which ought to have been discussed last night—the Motion dealing with Blocking Motions?

    I had intended to put that down for Wednesday next. Meanwhile, I will put it down for the most convenient day.

    Would it not be advisable to suspend the 11 o'clock rule so that we may succeed in having a Debate?

    May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of his statement yesterday that the law relating to the use of the military in civil disputes was intelligible and reasonable, there is need for a discussion, and whether it is not a waste of time to appoint a Committee to consider it?

    This is on an entirely different point—the question of the use of weapons.

    Seeing that the Holt Report deals with the pay and prospects of 250,000 postal officials could we not have a complete day for its discussion? [HON. MEMBERS: "Monday!"]

    Parliamentary Elections (Polling Day) Bill

    Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee C.

    Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

    Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.

    Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Friday, 26th June, and to be printed.

    Bills Brought From The Lords

    British Gas Light Company (Hull Station) Bill Lords

    Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

    Bill to be read the third time.

    Colonial And Foreign Banks Guarantee Corporation Bill Lords

    Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.

    Bill to be read the third time.

    Bengal And North-Western Railway Bill Lords

    Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

    Bill Presented

    Summary Jurisdiction (Matrimonial Causes) (No 2) Bill

    "To make further and better provision with respect to the hearing and determination of matrimonial causes by Courts of Summary Jurisdiction, and for purposes connected therewith." Presented by Mr. RENDALL; supported by Sir Godfrey Baring, Mr. Radford, Mr. Alden, Mr. Chancellor, Mr. Snowden, Mr. George Roberts, Mr. King, and Mr. Acland Allen; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 203.]

    Message From The Lords

    That they have agreed to,—

    Crystal Palace Bill, with Amendments.

    That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Mexborough Urban District Council to acquire the undertaking of the Mexborough, and District Water Company, Limited, and to

    make further provision in regard to the water supply of the district; and for other purposes." Mexborough Urban District Council Bill [ Lords.]

    And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Ellesmere Port and Whitby Urban District Council to purchase certain gasworks of the Shropshire Union Railways and Canal Company; and to confer further powers upon the Council with regard to the supply of gas and electricity and for the improvement of the district." Ellesmere Port and Whitby Urban District Council Bill [ Lords.]

    Mexborough Urban District Council Bill [ Lords],

    Ellesmere Port and Whitby Urban District Council Bill [ Lords].

    Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

    St Anne's-On-The-Sea Improvement Bill

    Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section B) [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

    Orders Of The Day

    Supply—Sixth Allotted Day

    Civil Services And Revenue Departments Estimates, 1914–15

    Considered in Committee.

    [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

    Stationery And Printing—(Class Ii)

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £569,272, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, for Stationery, Printing, Paper, Binding, and Printed Books for the Public Service; for the Salaries and Expenses of the Stationery Office; and for sundry Miscellaneous Services, including Reports of Parliamentary Debates." [Note.—£500,000 has been voted on account.]

    It may be for the convenience of the Committee to ask your ruling, Mr. Whitley, upon a point of Order. I had intended to draw attention.

    to inaccuracy in the Report of the House of Lords Debate, but with great kindness and courtesy—for which I am extremely indebted to you—you have privately called my attention to the fact that this matter arises more properly on another Motion. May I ask you, therefore, whether it is your ruling that the question of editing the Parliamentary Reports does not arise upon this Vote, but upon an earlier Vote in the same class of Estimates—Class I., I think—and, if so, whether upon this Vote it would be in order to draw attention to any mistake in the Report or any improper correction in the Report, or whether it would not be obligatory upon me, and other Members interested, to raise the matter on the earlier Vote when it is put down?

    If the Noble Lord will look at the Vote set down for to-day, Vote 24, Item N, he will find that that applies solely to printing, binding, and delivering the copies of the Debates, and that the money for reporting and editing the, Reports appears on Vote 1 of Class II., under the heading (c), almost the last item on page 5 of the Class. Therefore, it is, as I informed the Noble Lord just now, on that Vote that any matter referring to that sum of money ought to be raised.

    4.0 P.M.

    On the point of Order, may I ask if it is not competent for an hon. Member to argue that a sum of money should not be voted by the House for a service which is imperfect, and then to cite an illustration of that fact, such as the misprinting or the misediting of some passage on the ground that proper value has not been obtained for the Vote, and to move a reduction upon that ground? And in the second place, might I ask if it is necessary to move a reduction on a Vote on which the topic most properly arises? Cannot it be moved on any Vote to which that is relevant?

    As I pointed out to the Noble Lord, the point which he intimated that he wished to raise would be very largely mutilated on this Vote, and he agreed it would be better to raise it upon the other Vote when it is put down. The hon. Member is correct to this extent, that this Vote has reference to the printing, but the printer must print what copy he receives, and therefore no blame can attach to him.

    On a point of more general interest might I ask, if a certain topic is relevant to some one Vote, whether it must be raised on the one Vote that you consider most suitable, and cannot be raised on any other Vote to which it is relevant, if you think that it would be more in order and more properly raised upon another Vote?

    That is rather a hypothetical question, which does not now arise. In this case it is quite clear what the Noble Lord desired would be practically impossible on this Vote, and he will at least have a much better opportunity on Vote 1.

    There are a considerable number of items in these Estimates upon which I think it is desirable that the Committee should be furnished with some information before we agree to" the expenditure of £1,060,000. Some of these items affect the conditions of persons in the Department of the Secretary to the Treasury, which I think it is worth while bringing before the Committee at the commencement of my remarks. I should like to draw the attention of the-Minister in charge of these Estimates to an item in the establishment charges for female typists. The wages paid for female typists are set out at a minimum of 20s. a week and a maximum rising to 26s. I should like to know from the hon. Gentleman how many hours these female typists are called upon to work, what are-the ages of the girls employed, and how their remuneration compares with the remuneration in other business firms? I should also like to direct his attention to the wages paid to charwomen as set out on page 117. There are several charwomen mentioned, and I notice that some of them have rather miserable wages. One gets 16s. 6d., six get 14s., one gets 12s., and two get 10s. I want the hon. Gentleman to compare these wages and rates of remuneration with those in the various other Departments. If he will refer to another part of his own Estimates he will find that the estimate of sale from waste alone amounts to a sum of £7,000. It does seem to be ridiculous that a Department has got to expend £7,000 in dealing with waste and can only pay charwomen at the rate of 10s. a week. I should like to know if these charwomen are engaged all the time in the several buildings connected with these Departments, or whether they, are only partially employed, so as to sea whether the remuneration they receive is of a nature that the hon. Gentleman himself might be proud of in his own domestic concerns. I ask him to compare the wages paid to those people with some other remarkable facts. I should like to know the name of the Department that takes in no fewer than 100 copies of the "Peerage" to distribute among the clerks and 152 copies of the "Peerage," and no fewer than twenty-two copies of "Who's Who." What is the use of "Who's Who" in the Stationery Department? I can well imagine how it may be useful in the library, but what can be its use in the Stationery Department?

    It is not set out, but the money is here for the purchase of these books for various Departments, and I am putting the point that here you have a Department paying charwomen 10s. a week, while it is wasting the money of the country in purchasing copies of books which seem to me to have no relevancy at all to the work of the Stationery Department. It seems to me that that is the kind of criticism these items ought to be subjected to, when we are asked to pass so large a sum of money. I have dealt with two small items first: I want now to raise some larger point. I should like to know whether there is any improvement in the number of printing firms tendering for the work of the Government, because I discovered that, although there are 245 paper mills in this country, 203 of which are on the stationery list of the House of Commons, very few of these ever tender for the supply of paper. As a matter of fact, the majority of them do not tender. It is also current knowledge that far too few printers tender for the enormous volume of work carried out by the Stationery Department. It is perfectly obvious that some great saving might be effected if these matters were subjected to greater competition. For instance, in 1906, when the Stationery Office went direct to the manufacturers, they effected a saving in that year of £54,000. It has occurred to me to ask my hon. Friend whether the Government has ever taken into consideration the possibility at all of manufacturing its own paper. If you look at the figures of the volume of work and of the variety of the work which passes through the Stationery Office, it is of such a nature and extent as to warrant some sort of experiment being made by the Government itself to deal with this as a self-contained Department. I understand, for example, that very frequently estimates have to be secured for a very special class of work. I do not know and have not heard of any method by which charges for that kind of work could be checked at all. Has the Stationery Office now, or does the Stationery Office contemplate in the future, setting up a Printing Department of its own?

    The hon. Gentleman is, I understand, dealing with Item A, but on the lines on which he is going his speech would be more pertinent to the whole Vote, and I think it would be better if he dealt with the whole Vote instead of Item A.

    On a point of Order. I want to move a reduction of Item E. If the hon. Member moves a reduction upon the whole Vote I should be cut out.

    That is so. In the first instance, therefore, the Debate ought to be kept to Item A, which deals with salaries.

    I have no desire at all to limit the discussion. I am in the hands of Members of the Committee as to whether I should move a reduction of Item A or not. If I take the opportunity of sitting down now, I presume I shall not lose my right of coming in again on other subjects. Therefore, as I do not desire to cramp the Debate, and as I cannot go further on this particular point, I content myself with asking for an answer in respect of wages.

    The hon. Member may review matters in his speech without moving at all, and leaving that open to the hon. Baronet, and then he could come in later on.

    The hon. Member would be quite in order in moving a reduction on Item A.

    I do not desire to move a reduction upon this particular item. I am only copying the example of the hon. Baronet opposite in order to make a speech upon this particular Estimate. I do not propose to move a reduction, and if I do not I presume I could go over every item.

    It is very nice of the hon. Member opposite to say so, and I hope that means that I shall be assured of his presence as long as I talk. There are only one or two other items to which I wish to refer, and the first is the length of the contracts made by the Stationery Office. As far back as 1908 they used to be for ten years, and the suggestion was made that they ought to be for shorter periods. I should like to know if the Stationery Office are now letting their contracts for shorter periods of time. There is one other point, and that is the printing for Government Departments involving an expenditure of one and three-quarter millions of money which might lead to the distribution of the work in such a way as to prevent a large amount of unemployment in the printing trade. Everybody knows if contracts are put out ax, a particular time, the sum charged for that work would be very large, as compared with work distributed over a whole year. Here is a big Government Department having a large sum of money to spend, and I want to know can they tell us what they are doing in that particular respect. I should like to know whether the fashions are changing amongst hon. Members who use the writing paper in the Library. I find that owing to the personal preference of hon. Members of this House desiring a particular kind of paper of a particular quality and a particular surface, it is costing the country about £1,200 more yearly.

    Is the quality of the paper supplied in the Library in order on this Vote?

    I am not quarrelling about the quality of the paper which the hon. Member uses. What I am saying is that it costs more than it ought to do.

    Because he intervened. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is a libel!"] Because hon. Members are exercising this privilege, the paper is costing us a great deal more. The quality of the paper used by the Cabinet, for instance, differs from that used by most hon. Members on the Back Benches or below the Gangway, and I hope we shall receive some information upon that point. I find that there is a very large gratuitous distribution of volumes connected with the work of the Department from time to time, and I should like to know who gets them—who are the people who make this demand upon the Department for free volumes of the work concerned with the Department. This amount stands at a fairly large figure each year, and it seems to me that these standard lists have a faculty of increasing to a great extent, and we really ought to know how far this gratuitous distribution goes on. With regard to economies that might be effected, I wish to remind the House of one matter. Hon. Members are aware that you find in the copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT that you get each morning, and also in the copy of the Votes and Proceedings each morning, replies to the same questions. I have taken the trouble to ascertain what that means in money, and I find that it costs £20 on a single day to duplicate that information in the Votes and Proceedings and in the OFFICIAL REPORT. That seems to me to be an unwarrantable waste of public money. Hon. Members complain that we get far too many Papers, and I dare say the bulk of us agree with that complaint. I am sure hon. Members do not desire that this large amount of money should be spent unnecessarily upon information which can be secured in another way. It is far handier to hon. Members in the OFFICIAL REPORT than in the Votes and Proceedings, and I am sure nobody will complain if the Department effected an economy in that direction. Hon. Members know that the Stationery Department, more than any other Government Department, has effected economies. They have, as a matter of fact, effected larger economies than any other Department which we have had to criticise from time to time. I do not know whether such economy is possible in the case of all the Estimates, but if every Estimate submitted to this House were reduced to the same extent as the Stationery Vote has been reduced by the exercise of economies, we should set free a sum of no less than £12,000,000 a year. That is a simple sum in arithmetic, and I am only showing what economies have been effected by this Department, and how great a necessity there is for every other Department to exercise the same economy.

    I scarcely know how we stand on this Vote. The hon. Member who has just spoken has not moved a reduction, and I wish to know if I am at liberty now to speak from A to Q, although I do not wish to do so?

    I think it would be better to have a general discussion on the whole Vote, instead of confining the discussion to a particular item.

    May I refer to the question of salaries, wages and allowances? To-day some objections have been raised to the expenditure of public money amounting to £3,200 in the case of distinguished ex-Ministers. On this Vote I see an excess of nearly double that amount in the present year, as compared with the figure last year. I think these items require some explanation from the hon. Gentleman opposite. For instance, I noticed there is £1,561 excess for deputy-superintendents of clerical branches. I am aware that the introduction of Socialistic legislation increases the number of clerks in Government offices and the general expense of administration, but I think the Committee would be better satisfied if this increase were explained. There is an increase of £800 for second division clerks, and the double star note does not give the information which, I think, the Committee would like to have. In the case of printing clerks, there is an increase of £700 a year and an increase for assistant clerks of £800 a year. In view of these increases, the inspector of waste seems to exist to very small purpose, because he has not been able to avoid these large increases. I gather that the particular function of this inspector is to prevent waste in binding. Does this refer to some technical operation in regard to binding, or waste in the operations of the Department that deals with binding? I dare say all this is perfectly clear to experts, but to me it is not clear, and I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would explain it.

    The excess under Inspector of Waste is very small this year, but I do not understand what are the functions of this officer. In regard to warehousemen, there is an increase of 10 per cent. on the total Vote, and in the wages of porters and boys there is an increase of upwards of £2,500. These items chiefly account for the very large increase of £5,764 under Sub-head (a). The hon. Member who spoke last referred to the wages of charwomen, and he said he thought they were too low. I submit that the proper wage to pay to a charwoman is that which she obtains in ordinary employment, and probably the charges in this respect are fair and just. It does not seem to me at all consistent for an hon. Member who is objecting to excesses in these Estimates to urge the Department at the same time to increase the wages of charwomen. Will the hon. Gentleman kindly explain what is the allowance for clerical assistance in editing the "Dublin Gazette," which is costing £40 more a year than it did last year? I do not know whether it will continue to appear on this Vote in the future, but at the present time I do not know what that excess is, and I shall be grateful if the Secretary to the Treasury will explain it. The hon. Member opposite seemed to be "egging" the Government on to increase the pay of female typists. If they are satisfied and can be got at this wage, I think it is inconsistent of the hon. Member to urge the Government to increase those wages.

    Perhaps the House will permit me to say a few words on this Vote as Chairman of the Committee which has had to deal with the publications of the House. I do not think my hon. Friend on the Government Bench will deny that that Committee has been a very good supporter of the Treasury in its efforts at economy. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) who introduced this question has evidently paid the Committee the compliment of reading some of its Reports. The hon. Member drew attention to one or two recommendations which the Publications Committee have made in regard to the distribution of copies of "Who's Who," and other publications. I think that recommendation has already had a good effect upon the Government Departments; and the Stationery Office is entitled to be exonerated from the suggestion that that Office requires all these copies of publications for its daily use, because the Stationery Office simply distributes them. The demand for them is made by the heads of Departments, and the Stationery Office has no authority itself to refuse. It can only put a little check upon the demand by bringing the attention of the Publications Committee of this House to what it considers to be extravagant.

    In regard to the time for contracts, a couple of years ago the Publications Committee went into the question of contracting for printing. They found that ten years had been the period for which printing contracts were made, and it was considered too long. The period was reduced to five years, and then it was found that that was too short. In ten years it was found that there was not sufficient elasticity for the Departments, and in the five years' period it was found that the contractors were scarcely able to recoup themselves for the extra cost which they might be put to by undertaking a Government contract. The hon. Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) is troubled about the waste, in regard to which £7,000 has been recovered by the Stationery Office. That waste is what the hon. Member sees before him in the House, and the Government Departments. My hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh made what I think is rather a new suggestion, and that is that the Government should manufacture its own paper. I cannot agree that that suggestion would be an economical proceeding. The various Government Departments require a great many varieties of paper of different qualities, and the amount of paper they require varies each year. They may have a sudden demand for one size and quality one year, and a very small demand in the succeeding year. I am afraid it would be a very doubtful experiment, and, personally, I should not feel inclined to encourage the suggestion that the Government should undertake the manufacture of paper. I agree that direct contracting with paper makers is very much better than buying paper from agents in such large quantities as the Stationery Office has to do, and the saving which was secured some fifteen years ago when that system was first adopted has been continued. I consider that on the whole the method by which the Stationery Office buys its paper is very economical, and that it is very well done. They will have a still further advantage when the new premises which are being built for them give them a greater margin for storage.

    I may also point out to the Committee the attention which has been paid in late years to the method of contracting for printing. A few years ago the contracts were very large, and they were secured by very few firms indeed. Out of about £150,000 worth of printing, two firms secured £74,000 worth. Since then the Stationery Office has revised the contracts, and has reduced them, making it possible for a much larger number of firms to secure a portion of the work. In view of the suggestion that the Government might itself do a certain proportion of the printing, it was thought advisable to continue for another two years the contracts which would have terminated a few months ago. Some of the contractors were unwilling to continue the contracts, and those contracts were put up again. There was only a small number of them. It is rather testimony to the superior skill of the Stationery Office in letting these contracts to find that these very contracts which the contractors refused to continue have been let out again, to the amount of £37,500, with a saving for the first year of some £4,000, and for the second year of some £2,000. That is almost entirely owing to the fact that the Stationery Office has rearranged its forms of tender, has given further particulars of the contracts, and divided the numbers. The illustrative figures for the last twenty-five years are something like the following: In 1887, four firms secured £138,000 worth of printing; in 1897, nine firms secured £154,000 worth of printing; and in 1907 £200,000 worth was divided among twelve firms only. A few months ago £37,000 worth of printing was given out, and seven firms have now secured those contracts. The Publications Committee a few years ago recommended that the Government should do its own printing, and a Departmental Committee was then set up. It considered that it was not advisable to set up a central Government printing press, but it did recommend that Departmental presses should be set up, especially one at the Post Office, where they expected a saving of something like £5,000 on £55,000 worth of work. The Treasury, as my hon. Friend may know, was, however, adverse on general grounds of policy to further Departmental presses being set up. This adverse decision, I may say, was against a scheme which would have involved a capital expenditure of some £280,000. The Committee was actuated by the fact that there has been no actual experiment on a large scale. It appears to me—although I do not want to prejudge the decisions of the Committee which may be taken some time this Session—that there are very strong reasons which may be adduced for the Stationery Office having at its disposal a considerable printing establishment. Of all the Departments, if any, it appears to me that the Department through the hands of which £1,000,000 of printing goes is the very one which ought to have printing facilities at its disposal. The Department has a great variety of work to give out, and, while the Departmental presses which the Committee recommended would have all the fluctuations of one Department, a central Department would be able to avoid fluctuations by the average of work from the whole of the Departments of the Government.

    The Stationery Office has to buy nearly £500,000 worth of paper yearly. A great proportion of it, almost the whole of it, is brought to London. It would have this under its own hands, and would, therefore, avoid, for whatever printing it did, one turnover of the paper in its being sent out and returned printed. The argument for the Stationery Office having some printing machinery and plant at its disposal is for this reason a very strong one. The Department has to decide all technical questions which arise, and it would undoubtedly find it most valuable to have an extensive equipment for keeping its technical advisers up to date in their knowledge of new printing methods and machinery. Its staff, by whom all the work received has to be checked, is now entirely divorced from all practical working. It is recruited occasionally by skilled workmen being brought in, but once they get into the Stationery Office they may possibly never see a printing office again. I do not want to be taken as making any reflection on the staff in saying that, because I believe their work to be very well done; but, in forming an opinion as to cost, freshness of knowledge, and acquaintance with modern processes and machinery are of very great value. A great deal of the work which is given out is of such a nature that exact details cannot be supplied to those firms who wish to tender. At the recent inquiry several of the witnesses described tendering for Government printing as very speculative, and very much of a gamble. Those are conditions under which it is probable that those who are engaged in the gamble will see that the odds are on their own side. They are sure to take security that they will not lose. I do not wish to prejudge what the Committee which is considering the matter may say, but I hope that my hon. Friend will be willing to turn a kindly ear if the Committee should consider it advisable that the Stationery Office among its facilities should have the setting up of a printing department.

    I should like to make a remark generally, if the Committee will allow me, with regard to the Motions which are made in the House for the presentation of Returns. Frequently, when there is a Motion on the Paper for a Return, the exact form of headings and rules is set out on the Paper. On these occasions the Member who-draws that up may not know what will be the exact size of the column which is best, and the various details which will produce an economical Return. I can give an instance in connection with a Return moved for by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford Diversity (Lord Hugh Cecil). It was a Return of the sales of advowsons. If that Return had been set up in the same way as a previous Return of ten years ago, it would have cost £180. The Stationery Office drew attention to the extravagant manner of the composition, and on being approached the Noble Lord was perfectly willing to have it done in the most economical and convenient form. Instead of £180, set up on the manner suggested by the Stationery Office, the cost for composition was £60, so that no less than £120 out of £180 was saved by the Stationery Office in that one instance. I would suggest, instead of drawing up the exact form, that hon. Members should be content to mention the particulars they require, and simply say "in a convenient form." The form could be afterwards arranged by the skilled advisers of the Department.

    I may mention, with regard to the OFFICIAL REPORT, that the additional facilities which are now given to the House by the Daily Reports being ready the next morning instead of at the week-end, have been secured by a favourable contract, so that if what was done now were done at the price which used to be paid, instead of costing £13,100, it would cost £17,338. I think that the House has done very well to take into its own hands its own reporting, separating the reporting and the printing contracts, and giving out the printing to contract. By that means it was also able to secure greatly increased facilities for the Departments. At the present time there are no fewer than thirteen Departments who have the Debates and questions which relate to their own Department set up in separate parts. The Irish Office, the Board of Education, the Post Office, the India Office, the War Office, the Treasury, the Labour Exchanges, the Board of Agriculture, the Admiralty, the Scottish Office, the Home Office, the Colonial Office, and the National Insurance Commission are all able, by using the type which is now at the disposal of the Stationery Office, to have their own separate parts together in a very handy form. I might also mention the fact, which I think was alluded to by my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh, that it has been recommended by the Committee that neither the Division Lists nor the non-oral questions should be printed twice. One costs an additional £1,000 a year, and the other an additional £900 a year. There is one other little detail with regard to questions in which perhaps the House may be interested, and that is that the average number of questions per day is now 138, while ten years ago it was sixty-four. The number of pages occupied in the OFFICIAL REPORT by questions and answers is now more than double what it was ten years ago. If you wish to secure economy in printing, you must really reduce the amount of the work. Whilst you have in the Stationery Office a Department which is extremely economical, it has to fulfil all the demands of the Departments, and so long as you have an avalanche of leaflets from the Insurance Commissioners, torrents of statistics from the different Departments, and further Returns asked for by Members of this House, so long will your printing bill continue to grow, and so long will my hon. Friend at the Treasury have to try and keep a tight hand, as I believe the Treasury does, all round.

    Sir F. BANBURY rose—

    May I ask if the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London moves his Amendment now it will preclude further debate on the matters discussed by my hon. Friend?

    I understand the hon. Baronet is not going to move his Amendment at this stage.

    No, I propose to do that later on. But I wish to say a few words in answer to the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bury (Sir G. Toulmin). I have obtained a copy of the Report, which is a very interesting document, and have read as well as I could during the last few moments what it says as to whether or not it is advisable the Government should set up a printing department of its own. I think, as shown by what the hon. Member said, it certainly is not advisable, for, if I did not misunderstand him, he told the Committee that printing for the Government was a very great gamble. He said he had been informed by the contractors that printing-was a gambling transaction, and there might be a loss or there might be a profit. We do not want the Government to enter into these gambling transactions, because it would still remain a gamble.

    I am afraid that the hon. Baronet did not quite appreciate my argument. I said the contractors feel that it is a gamble, and therefore they add 10 per cent. to what they think they can-do the work for, in order to make themselves quite secure; whereas, if the Government did it themselves, they would only pay the real cost.

    Then apparently I am right in what I said. The contractors think, say, that the cost is going to be £300,000. It turns out to be £340,000. The printers lose £40,000, which the nation gains.

    If the contractor thinks it is going to cost £300,000, he charges £330,000, and, if it proves to cost only £280,000, then the nation loses £50,000.

    But you must also take it the other way. Suppose the contractors make a mistake. It may be suggested that they never make mistakes, and if that can be shown to be the case I have nothing further to say. But the very statement of the hon. Member that the contractor says it is a gambling transaction, and he is not quite certain what the cost is going to be—of course, I only use the word "gambling" in the sense that it is impossible to estimate the cost—shows that in these circumstances it is better to leave it to the contractor instead of to the Government. If we know perfectly well what it is going to cost, possibly it might be better for the Government to undertake it. Even on that point I am very doubtful; but if it is a problematical question then the Government, had better leave it to the contractor instead of attempting to execute the work themselves. There is another point. It would be necessary to have experts to supervise all this work. As far as my own personal feelings are concerned, I rather sympathise with the Members of the Government, who are having this additional work cast upon them. I understand their work is very hard at the present moment—I have never been a Government official myself, and therefore I cannot really say, but is it to the advantage of the nation, when you remember all the difficulties that are put in the way of a Government Department and the pressure which Members of Parliament are subjected to to obtain increased rates of pay and increased emoluments for this and that and the other for the particular service of a Government Department—a thing which is very bad in itself, and which, I am sure, every Member of Parliament dislikes—is it to the advantage of the nation to multiply the number of Government Departments and to increase the pressure put upon Members of Parliament. I think it would be a very mistaken policy, especially when the work, as in this ease, is of a nature which fluctuates considerably in the year. The hon. Member in paragraph 3 of his Report says:—

    "In this connection your Committee recommend that each Government Department should, during next year, carefully consider the periodical publications for which they are responsible, both as to contents and ill consultation with the Stationery Office, as to form. Your Committee examined a considerable number of these publications and found much to criticise in the method of their preparation. It is in their opinion very desirable that the Departments should consult the Stationery Office before the "copy" is prepared. Your Committee recommended the adoption of this course in 1907–8, and in accordance with that recommendation circulars have been issued by the Treasury to the various Departments. Your Committee, however, regret to note that the system does not appear to have been completely adopted, and a case has been brought to their notice in which a Department of the Local Government Hoard—"
    I believe the Local Government Board are very great sinners in this respect, that they issue a very large number of publications—
    "had never even been informed of the existence of the Treasury circular."
    To set up a Committee of this House, and when they make, as this Committee did in 1907–8, what, at any rate, seems to be a very sensible Report, in which they offer a sensible recommendation, and for the Local Government Board, one of the chief offices in the country, never even to be informed of the existence of the Treasury Regulation is very strange indeed.

    Possibly I did not make the point quite clear. What I meant to convey was that one Department of the Local Government Board had never been informed of the circular. The Local Government Board itself had received the circular, but the attention of a separate Department of the Board appears not to "have been drawn to it.

    That really makes it all the worse. Apparently, the Local Government Board had been informed, and had not even taken the trouble to convey the information to one of its Departments. I do not know which Department it was, or whether a very important Department was left out purposely. If the circular went to the Local Government Board it should have been passed on to all the Departments. I am very much obliged to the hon. Member for his explanation, but I am not obliged to him for his attempt to whitewash the Government, an attempt which, I think, has not been very successful. There is another recommendation to this effect:—

    "Your Committee see no reason to modify the con elusion then arrived at, but desire rather to emphasise it: and, in addition, they would point out that the Division Lists are duplicated, i.e., they appear in the OFFICIAT. REPORT and also in the Votes and Proceedings, a duplication which appears to your Committee lo be unnecessary"
    I do not know whether that will have a very great effect in saving money. It is not necessary, in my opinion, to have the Division Lists in the Votes and Proceedings, but it is necessary to have them in the OFFICIAL REPORT, because many Members look at the OFFICIAL REPORT—it may not be on the following morning or even in the following week—and they may have to turn it up for reference, and may desire to know if there was a Division on a particular subject and who voted in it. They would not look to the Votes and Proceedings for that, and consequently the inclusion of Division Lists there is not a very great necessity. I hope that, in that regard, the recommendation of the hon. Member will be carried. The item for printing and stationery is a very large one. The net sum is over a million sterling. We all know it is absolutely necessary to spend a considerable sum upon printing and stationery for the advantage of the nation, but a very considerable portion of it might be saved if there were not so many circulars sent out from the different offices. The hon. Member in his speech said something about insurance tracts.

    Very well. Circulars sent out from the Insurance Commission and from other offices pointing out the advantages of certain things. I will not allude to that further, because I intend later on to move a reduction of Item E for this very reason. I do hope the new Financial Secretary will seriously consider whether something cannot be done to curtail waste in this Department. It is almost impossible to prevent a certain amount of waste and duplication, but still I think some considerable saving might be made in the printing of unnecessary circulars, which, I am afraid, is done at an excessive rate.

    I think the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) did not quite appreciate the point raised by the hon. Member for Bury (Sir G. Toulmin) in regard to the somewhat speculative contracts. The fact is that it is impossible to tell beforehand how they will work out. In consequence of that my hon. Friend says it is a gamble, and as only people who have already had experience of the work will tender for it, the competition is "very limited. As gambling phraseology has been brought in—I have not much acquaintance with bookmaking and gambling, but I have always been given to understand, and perhaps that is the reason why I have not indulged in it, that when one gambles with a bookmaker the odds are in favour of the bookmaker—I am making no reflection on the printing trade in general when I say that in respect of these contracts the odds are equally in favour of the printer as against the Government, and therefore it appears desirable that the Government should have an opportunity of placing a check upon the very small number of firms who are prepared to tender for these so-called speculative contracts.

    I think I am right in saying the hon. Member for Bury himself stated that two contractors had refused to take contracts which had then been relet at a reduced sum. That would seem to show that there is competition.

    5.0 P.M.

    Yes, undoubtedly, but a large number of the contracts might correctly be described as speculative. There is a difference between contracts for work which is perfectly well understood, and which is done year after year, and contracts which cannot be calculated upon beforehand, and it is with a view of saving money in this direction that I think a Government Department would be of advantage. I would like to appeal to the Treasury to lend a sympathetic ear to our plea for a Government printing office on an adequate, though not an extravagant, scale. It is perhaps anticipating a little the conclusions of the Committee over which my hon. Friend the Member for Bury presides, and of which I have the honour to be a member. But the opportunity seems to be a good one for bringing the point before the House and under the attention of the Financial Secretary, and I trust the Committee will not think that we are poaching on its preserves by putting forward our plan before a formal decision has been arrived at. It seems most desirable we should have an adequate printing office, at least for the Stationery Department, which knows far more about printing than many other Government Departments that already have presses of their own. I ask this, not on grounds of philanthropy, which the hon. Baronet would probably expect, or so that the conditions of employment should be of the best—though I will admit that that is an eminently desirable result to be obtained—but on other grounds. I ask the Government to set up something in the way of a printing press to serve as a check on the contractors, not only in regard to speculative contracts, but also in regard to the whole of the printing for the public service. It is perfectly true that there is a large amount of competition for Government work, but at the same time you have a, system of contracts for the public service which is always at the mercy of a ring that may be formed among the comparatively few printing contractors who are able to tender for the particular work required. In that case they are bound to give the work out at the ring price, unless they have their own Government Department. Even though that Government printing department is small and quite incapable of doing more than a small percentage of the total Government printing work, it could, nevertheless, take on any particular job in regard to which there was reason to believe they were being asked for more money than the job was worth. In that respect it would serve as a most useful check upon the danger of rings being formed, as we have every reason to believe they have been formed in the past, in regard to various Departments against the Government. It is probably within the knowledge of this Committee that within the last few years, in regard to one particular class of contract for one item only, a ring had been formed, or, at any rate, it had been the custom to restrict competition very severely. As a result of careful inquiry by the Treasury, and, perhaps, at some little risk and inconvenience to the public service, a saving was made which amounted to no less than £70,000 per year.

    There is a further saving to be made by a Government printing department, in that these contracts are now made for a period of seven years. Many of them are for Returns and publications which come out year after year without any change, and, therefore, the type is kept standing. If a contractor only gets a contract for seven years, he has only to spend in the first year the cost of setting up all that type. If a Government Department takes such a contract as that in hand, they would know that at the end of seven years they would not have to surrender the work, and they could keep the type standing from year to year, or as long as it was required, and, once set up, that composing would be done with and it would not be a recurring expense. That would mean a considerable saving to the public service. There is, it is true, a risk that such a printing press might allocate to itself the most desirable printing jobs, but I cannot believe, having regard to the record of the Stationery Department, that it would be guilty of any such practice. If it were established, it would be in a position to undertake work which was hardly of a pressing nature, what we call "stand-by" work, and would be able to keep its presses going with work which was not urgently required by public Departments. It would be able to carry on the work more economically than printing presses which have to depend upon spasmodic orders which they cannot in any way control. On the whole, I think a case has been made out for establishing something in the nature of a Government printing department. I would not suggest that a very large expenditure should be made at first. I believe it is possible, by the expenditure of only a few thousand pounds, to set up a comparatively small printing press, not on a small scale, because I want it to be on such a scale that it could be extended as it proves to be desirable.

    What I urge is that the sum of £10,000 should be expended in setting up a sufficiently large public printing press to be able to compete with any chance of rings being formed against the Government, and if that press justifies itself by carrying out the work economically and to the satisfaction of the other Departments from year to year, as it justifies itself, further money could be spent until the Department was expanded to-the extent which some hon. Members below the Gangway wish to see established at once. I welcome the opportunity, which occurs far too seldom, of considering the general question of expenditure on stationery. We are all very conscious that it is growing very rapidly—indeed, I fear there is a tendency rather to condemn the Stationery Department as though it were responsible. On the contrary, the Stationery Department has proved itself to be at least as efficient as any other Department of the Government service. It is to be remembered, in its favour, that it is the unwilling servant of all the other Departments, in that it has to carry out their demands without being able to put more than a very slight check upon them. If it were not that this House had an occasional opportunity of stiffening the back of the Stationery Department, I am afraid the extravagance would be very much greater than at the present time. In-particular, I would ask that this House should set its own house in order as far as possible, and I join in the appeal made by the hon. Baronet that we should at least avoid extravagance in our own printing. I agree with him as to the unnecessary duplication of Division Lists and the Written Answers to Questions. As a matter of fact, that can only be settled by a Standing Order of the House. It is under the Standing Order that both those items are printed in the Votes. We know that nobody looks at the Votes of Proceedings when he wants to get a record of the Divisions or an answer to a question.

    My hon. Friend will agree with me that they can be equally conveniently looked up in the Report of the Proceedings. I regret to hear my hon. Friend advocating an expenditure which must amount to £2,000 or £3,000 a year in order to have the answers to his questions reprinted when they are already printed, so that he may have the honour and glory of seeing them in a larger type.

    This matter cannot be altered without an alteration in the Standing Orders of the House. I suggest to hon. Members that if they are sincere in their desire for economy, they should agree to an amendment of the Standing Orders without it being necessary to discuss the matter in the House.

    The Committee knows that the very large number of the Members of the House serve on Committees upstairs. They do so very willingly, because they think, perhaps, it would be of some use to the country, but much of their efficiency is diminished through one small difficulty they experience. We have in Committee very often a large number of Papers, and on several occasions we have asked for paper-cases to be provided in order that we may keep our papers together and do our work with efficiency. I regret to say that that request has been refused. It is a cynical comment on the value of our work that such a small addition to our comfort and the efficiency of our work should be denied us by the Treasury. I imagine that the cost of these cases could hardly be more than 2s. or 2s. 6d. each. If every Member of the House had one given to him, the whole cost would not be more than £100. I have served on a Departmental Committee, and there no question was raised, because each one of us was furnished with a case, which we found extremely useful—in fact, if we had not had them, we should not have been able to keep our papers together, and valuable time would have been taken up in dealing with them. It is not parsimony, but true economy, if Members are enabled to carry on their work with efficiency.

    We are all agreed that the Stationery Office is one of the most efficient Government Departments. I should like to associate myself with the excellent work done by the Publications and Debates Committee. I am certain they have exercised themselves to the utmost to effect every possible economy in respect of printing, binding, etc. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. James Hogge) prefaced his speech with some reference to the wages of charwomen and others. I beg to associate myself with those sentiments, although I think it is a point applicable to all State Departments. It is a question which ought to be overhauled, not in respect to the Government Stationery Department alone, but in respect to every Government Department. The hon. Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) suggested that even charwomen should be put in competition with one another in order to see what is the lowest wage which they will take. I believe the majority of Members will desire that all those in their service should receive such a sufficient reward as will enable them to live, and I suppose the hon. Member himself shares that view, although he expresses views of a somewhat different (character. There are two points to which I desire to express myself. One is in respect to the placing of Government contracts. The hon. Member for Bury (Sir G. Toulmin), who so ably acts as the Chairman of the Publications and Debates Committee, has revealed to the Committee the reasons why the duration of contracts has been varied from time to time. Originally the period was one of ten years. Experience proved that that was too long. Then it was changed to one of five years. Experience proved that to be too short, hence, I believe, the common practice now to be to give contracts for a period of seven years. I agree that ten years was too long, especially having regard to the great fluctuation in the prices of paper which constantly take place. Of course, paper is one of the chief items in expenditure under this head.

    On the other hand, five years has been proved to be hardly fair to those who have to carry out these contracts, because, as the hon. Member for Scarborough (Mr. Walter Rea) said, during the period of the contract the contractors have to recoup themselves for all the charges of typesetting, etc., which means that they have imposed upon them too short a period, and they have to inflate their prices beyond the ordinary market prices in order to cover their risks. It might well be that seven years has been proved by experience to be fair to the Government and to the contractor as well. I desire to direct the attention of the hon. Gentleman in charge of this Vote to one point relating to Government contracts. I would like him to tell us what measures are adopted in order to secure that in respect to Government contracts the Fair-Wages Clause is carried out. I am prepared to acknowledge that in recent years a marked improvement has been made in this regard. I believe that many reproaches have been removed from the Government because of the amendment of that Clause and the improved manner of its administration. I may claim to have some knowledge of the trade, because when I used to work I was a printer. Now that I am in the House of Commons my friends tell me I do not work, and therefore I cannot claim to be placed in that category.

    I intended that as a joke. I make claim to have some intimate knowledge of the trade, and to speak on some points with modest authority. But I am informed that there are firms holding Government contracts, which have offices in London, but send some Government work out into branches in the provinces and by that means the provisions of the Fair-Wages Clause are evaded. I have on occasion made representation to the heads of Departments on this matter. I appreciate their difficulties, because I have experience of them myself. I find it very difficult to get exact particulars upon which to prefer charges against these firms, but there is more than reasonable ground for suspicion that this is not at all an uncommon practice, that a firm which may, because of the superior strength of the organisation in London, he compelled to conform strictly to the Fair-Wages provisions may, where that combination is lacking in provincial parts, resort to conditions which cannot possibly be recognised as an honourable compliance with the provisions of the Fair-Wages Clause.

    I can indicate to the right hon. Gentleman two instances, one at Dunstable and another at Woodham. I am convinced that in both these cases firms which have Government contracts, and which are at present, I believe, Government contractors, have conditions prevailing in branch offices which no reasonable person will be prepared to defend as coming within the provisions of the Fair-Wages Clause. Female labour is resorted to in a manner which would not be recognised were that work done in London. I candidly confess that it is extremely difficult to get reliable data on which to prefer exact charges, but I submit that it would be incumbent upon the authority placing those contracts to compel those firms to prove that they are in full compliance with the Fair-Wages Clause, not only in their London establishment but in their branch offices—that is, at any rate, if there is any chance whatever of Government work reaching those branch offices. I do not think that is an unreasonable request, and I do not think the manner in which I have preferred it will be objected to by any hon. Member. It may be, of course, that when inquiries are prosecuted you will be told that the house is perfectly fair in London. That may be so. My hon. Friend (Mr. Bowerman) is able to speak with even greater authority than I can, because he maintains a more intimate connection with trade matters than I have been able to do in recent years, but I believe he will bear me out that it is a very common practice for Government work to be transferred to these provincial establishments where we are told in full confidence and with perfect candour that the Fair Wages Clause desired to be enforced by this House is violated in a considerable degree. I would respectfully request that the right hon. Gentleman should give special consideration to this point, and that he will ascertain whether it is possible for the officials of his Department to compel these contractors to give the fullest possible information respecting wages and general conditions, not only in regard to London, but also to provincial establishments under their control.

    A very interesting development has ensued in this Debate on the question of a State printing office. Here of course the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) will know that he and I do not agree excepting on this point. I most heartily associate myself with him in the principle that in all these matters we should simply contemplate efficiency and economy and therefore, if I make the admission that when I approach this subject it is from that point of view, I am sure he will regard it that I am concerned with the public welfare equally as I am prepared to acknowledge that to be his motive. For my own part I feel that a very strong case has been made out for a considerable experiment under this head. I am not going to urge, as the hon. Member (Mr. Walter Rea) seemed to suggest, that my hon. Friends on this bench would demand that the State should immediately set up an establishment sufficient to cope with all Government printing. I am not prepared to urge a scheme of that character, for after all I can quite conceive that this is a subject which must be approached first of all from an experimental stage, and that subsequent developments must very largely be guided by the result of the experiment thus conducted. I should be quite prepared to accept that, because I have supreme confidence that once the experiment was embarked upon, a very wide extension of the principle would be justified, but here of course, any experiment must be based upon conditions which will allow of ultimate extension. I do not think that the question of a few thousand pounds is worthy of consideration by this House. The Post Office has given some consideration to this matter, and the very humble project they have outlined involves a capital expenditure, I believe, of some £56,000 or £57,000.

    Of course, those who are accustomed to speak of millions may regard that as rather a small sum, but if, in respect of the printing of one Department, a scheme involving a capital outlay of £56,000 has to be contemplated, a scheme worthy of the Government undertaking must necessarily be of much larger dimensions than that. Here I want to enter a protest, strictly adhering to my original thesis of efficiency and economy, against different Departments setting up small distinct offices. After all, if we are to have a number of small printing offices, that must certainly be a most uneconomic method of doing Government work. Everyone is aware, of course, of the advantages and economies of large productions in these days, and everyone will see that you must have a supervisor—a competent person—in each one of these smaller offices, and in the aggregate the expenditure thus made is of an inefficient and uneconomic character; therefore, I suggest that the Government already has the nucleus of a "State printing office. If they were to bring together the few small offices that they now have under their control they could make a start of this character in a manner likely to afford a fair test and to prove the possibility, from the point of better economy and more efficient administration, of Government printing.

    Some year or two since I went over the marvellous State printing office of the United States in Washington, and there the experience of everybody competent to judge was that that was the best method of doing the Government work. Certainly it is one of the best organised and best equipped printing offices with which I have made acquaintance. I made inquiries, not only as to the conditions prevailing amongst the workpeople, but from the point of view of a Government concern, and without claiming to be able to give an opinion which ought to be accepted unreservedly by every Member of this House, I should say that the opinions that I gleaned went to show that the Department was certainly justified, and that it was regarded as a most efficient and desirable method of doing Government printing work. We have a great deal of confidential printing to be done. This very often has to be paid for at a higher rate when placed with private contractors. The Government, having an office of its own, would be able to treat all this work as confidential, and would not lay itself open to any special charges. Again, the hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Toulmin) submitted a very pertinent point here. I have a very high opinion of those who are in the Stationery Office. I know that many of them are men of practical knowledge of the trade in all its branches. We take them and place them in a Government office, which admits of no immediate contact with great modern printing establishments, and I know of no form of industry in which the processes undergo such rapid change, and even complete change, as in modern printing offices. If the Government had an office equipped in modern fashion, organised on scientific-principles, I believe the staff would then be better able to deal with the mass of Government printing which comes under their control. As it is, I am fearful that they have very largely to be left at the mercy of the contractors or the contractors' representatives on many points which come under their consideration. I know that the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) opposes this, because he fears that many more officials would have to be appointed. He says we must have experts. In my opinion we already have the expert opinion at the Stationery Office. We are already paying for that opinion and for that service, which is now kept in a narrower sphere, whereas, if we had a State printing department, I believe that same expert opinion would be able to deal with both the purely stationery side and also with the productive side of the printing office itself. A Committee inquired into this matter in 1907. They did not report favourably then to the Government embarking upon a great scheme. I believe that opinion has very largely improved since then, and that a majority of the House might be found in favour of an experiment being made in this direction. Then, provided the experiment had been wisely conceived, and it had a fair chance and then was proved to be a failure, I will admit to the hon. Baronet that the State ought not to develop it. On the other hand, I believe that all the inquiry which has been prosecuted goes to prove that it is eminently desirable that the Government should have such a Department under their control, and hence I most heartily associate myself with those who have requested that the right hon. Gentleman will give a fair consideration to this point, and that he will be able to tell us whether the Government have prosecuted inquiries into the matter and have any intention of taking action in this direction.

    I wish to call attention to a small point. I see there is a Vote for stationery for printing for the War Office of £124,000. This, of course, includes the publication of the Army Vote. Perhaps I should address this rather to the Minister for War. I know that in most cases the Government Departments have the greatest difficulty in getting money out of the Treasury, and, therefore, I think the Secretary to the Treasury may be to a certain extent responsible in this matter. My point is that the "Manual of Military Law "was published in 1907, and that there have been, I believe, a good many corrections brought out since then in the shape of Army orders. An important one was read to the House the other day. At the present moment I understand that the "Manual of Military Law" cannot be purchased in the ordinary way and at the ordinary price. It is out of print, and, although the price originally was 2s., I myself on applying to two or three shops in London, including Messrs. Spottiswoode, found that I could get an old copy for 7s. 6d., but I was told that if I wished one up to date I should have to pay 15s. This may seem a small point, but there are a lot of officers in the Army who have to get up these subjects.

    This is out of order. The question the hon. Member is discussing does not arise on this Vote at all. It is a matter for the Secretary of Stale for War, and this Vote has nothing at all to do with the Secretary of State for War. It is the Stationery Vote, and I cannot allow the hon. Member to proceed on that line.

    May I suggest that the money for printing is provided under the Stationery Vote. I think there is considerable parsimony shown in providing money for the printing of new editions of War Office books as they run out. Is that in order? I only wish to bring out the hardship to officers in the Army who have to pay 15s. for this book.

    I have told the hon. Member that it is out of order to discuss that matter for the reason I gave.

    Certain of my hon. Friends on this side of the House have been patting themselves and their colleagues because of some economies which have been effected. I do not challenge their action, nor do I say that they are not faithful. They have carried cut some economies, but I have yet to learn that because a Member of the House of Commons does his duty in that way and saves a little waste we need spend the whole afternoon discussing the matter. After all, there is a great deal of room for more improvement, and I should have preferred some indication from my hon. Friends above the Gangway as to other matters, and the economies which they hope to effect in the coming year. We have not heard a solitary word to suggest that there is more that they hope to be able to do. I trust that next year they will be able to tell us something which will encourage the House to hope that they intend to do better in the future. My hon. Friend referred to the cost of wastepaper baskets. I do not think that a basket costs more than 2s. 6d., and it is hardly necessary to discuss that matter. I think this House ought to set a good example to every Department and to public officials whom we love to criticise. The hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) made a good start, and called attention to the fact that the Local Government Board did not tell the officials of its own Department a very important matter, and that thereby an important economy which might have been carried cut was lost. If that is so, let us begin nearer home. Who are we that we should lecture the Department about extravagance when we carry on an extravagant system with regard to our own concerns? We get by every day's post an enormous number of Papers. Some hon. Members who live at hotels will pair for a month, and then on coming back they find addressed to them a pile of official documents which have to be carried away in a furniture van. I say that the very sight of that literature accumulating at the expense of the State is demoralising to club and hotel servants, and this House loses the confidence it ought to enjoy.

    Some hon. Members are fond of introducing Bills to deal with every subject on heaven and earth. One night there was on the Order Paper private Bills to the number of no less than ninety-two, which, of course, have to be printed—that is to say, ninety-two amateur attempts at legislation. Does anybody suggest that the people of this country are anxious to have ninety-two Acts of Parliament passed in one night about old men, children, horses, women, and every kind of industry? The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London objected to forty, and I objected to twenty-one. There were twenty Bills whose authors were absent, and about eleven were slaughtered. That involves a huge waste of money. Hon. Members do not think enough of the public purse when they bring forward these schemes to advertise themselves or the particular society which is promoting them, or to put some project before the House. The tons and tons of wastepaper in connection with these Bills represents an astonishing charge for printing, and I think we ought to practise a little economy ourselves before we preach it to others. The hon. Baronet is apt occasionally to introduce a Bill, but not very often. In one Session he introduced two Bills on the same subject—No. 1 and No. 2—and that shows that if he had been a little more careful of the public purse he would not have been guilty of that extravagance. I say that the sight we present is not edifying, and I wish my hon. Friends who are members of the Publications Committee would make some suggestions which would lead to greater economy in the future. I would like some system adopted whereby they could stop the delivery of Papers which go in an everlasting stream to hon. Members when they are away for a prolonged period. Could not something be done so that hon. Members while away could cancel the delivery of the Papers?

    With regard to the point that we do not want two Reports per day, I do not agree with the hon. Member for Scarborough (Mr. W. Rea) when he says that nobody looks at the Votes and Proceedings. Of course, we do. The names in the Division Lists in the OFFICIAL REPORT are in exceedingly small type, and I would suggest to any Member who likes to keep the Division Lists by him to take them from the Votes and Proceedings, so as to avoid tearing up the volume of the OFFICIAL REPORT. I do not object to one Report of the Divisions being substituted for the two which we at present receive, but let us have one well printed. If we are not to have the Division Lists in the Votes and Proceedings, they should be printed in a better form than they are now in the columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT. If that were done, then we might sacrifice having two kinds of Reports. I speak on behalf of some of the older Members of the House whose eyesight is not what it was. I know that they have been unable to make out the print in the OFFICIAL REPORT, and if it is really intended to make a change in this matter, I would suggest that the names should be printed in much better type. I would almost move a reduction of the Vote in order to test the feeling of the House on this matter. The wanton waste in connection with printed matter really puts us out of court when impressing on others the necessity for economy. I am sure it has a bad effect on the Departments. The fact that we are so careless—

    I really do not see what the Stationery Department has to do with that. It is a matter for the Members themselves. The Stationary Department simply carries out orders.

    I quite agree; I was dealing with what has been put forward on behalf of the Publications Committee, and hon. Members who have spoken in regard to the savings have vanished before I could reply to them. I am glad that the hon. Member for Scarborough is still here. They were complaining of the waste in certain Departments, and I say that we ought to begin our economies at home. As to the suggestion that there ought to be a Government Department to do all this printing, I am not convinced about that, and I do not wish it to go forth that it is the general opinion on this side of the House that there should be such a Department, because that is not so. It is quite true that we have some expert compositors or printers. That will not make a success of the Department. Our Civil Service officials are not business men in the sense of being able to manage big works, and they are not chosen on this ground. They may be politicians, or the relatives of politicians, but I have no confidence whatever that we select the right kind of people to conduct a great business department such as this would have to be if we printed these publications ourselves. I have no objection to the State doing a certain thing, but if we do it we should have a competent staff and a manager who would save money. In these matters I am an opportunist. I do not apply a rigid rule as to whether we should or should not do certain work. It is purely a case of considering whether we have the right men and whether we can save money by doing it. No information has been given to us that we have a manager. What are you going to pay him? What does a private firm pay its manager? It pays a good price, and expects good work. If you are going to decide upon doing this work, what do you propose to pay? It is very easy to say that you want to make a start and to have the Government doing its own printing in works which would go on year by year, but I do not think that is a sufficient inducement for us to make a start. I look a little further ahead. I do not say that I am against the proposal if it can be shown that the State has the proper man, but no information is given as to that. It is simply stated as an academic theory that the State should do its own printing, because we are in the hands of a ring. I do not believe in the ring theory. There are any number of printers all over the country who would be glad to compete. I am not on the Committee, and I am unable to say why they do not compete. I do not see how there can be a ring among the printers in this country, and, if there is a ring against the Government, I ask why there is not a ring against commercial men. I am certain, even if there was a ring, some printer could break it down to-morrow. There is no close corporation about it. What happens at present is that certain firms have certain forms and machinery which are suitable for Government work. Certain things are set in type, and they can be used again and again. Therefore, a man who has had orders before is on more sure ground than a stranger, but there are plenty of firms which would risk a loss on the first year's contract in order to get work at a profit afterwards. I cannot assume that the State is losing by some mysterious ring of contractors who are conspiring against it. The suggestion which has been made is that there should be a Government Department managed by someone, but whom we do not know. I think that is a suggestion that ought not to be thrown out in this House.

    I desire to draw attention to a matter which I have raised more than once in this Committee. That is, the form in which Blue Books are published. Anyone who ever looks into Blue Books knows that they contain a amount of very interesting and valuable information, and that some of them are works of permanent value, containing in many cases very expensive and wonderfully executed prints, plans and illustrations. Some years ago-there was published, at huge expense, an immense number of Blue Books on the Poor Law system of this country. Those books contain a vast quantity of extraordinarily interesting and valuable information. At the time that those Blue Books were being published I asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether it would not be as well, in view of the great interest and value of the books, to have them published in a form in which they could be read, because the present enormous Blue Books of from 500 to 1,000 pages are practically unreadable, and few people ever do read them. The Secretary to the Treasury of that day promised that he would see that the Report of the Royal Commission on the Poor Law would be published in the same form as the previous Report of the Commission on Secondary Education, which, because it was published in an ordinary handy octavo form, is on the library shelves of many Members of this House and of many persons who are interested in education, and is frequently referred to. But the promise was forgotten, and this has never been done. Another great Commission is sitting at present, which no doubt will publish a very valuable Report, which would be valuable to be consulted by thousands of medical men in this country—the Royal Commission on Venereal Diseases. That Report will, I have no doubt, contain not only enormously valuable information by all the greatest scientific men in the country, but also a vast quantity of extremely extensive and valuable illustrations, and I earnestly hope that the Secretary to the Treasury will have it published in the form of ordinary volumes. If that is done, it will be sought after by a great number of men, and will no doubt be of great value. I would urge that the Reports of all these great Commissions, which are of permanent value as distinguished from the ordinary Blue Book which is temporary, should be published in octavo form in bound volumes, so that they could be put on the shelves of our libraries' and referred to from time to time.

    The hon. Member who has just spoken made a complaint about the waste of printed matter which goes on in connection with this House. I have been listening to this complaint, made in this House in equally forcible and eloquent terms, for the last thirty years. No doubt there is a vast waste of printed matter, but I do not believe that this House wastes nearly as much on printing as any other legislative assembly in the world. You cannot conduct a legislative assembly like, particularly one which controls all the proceedings of the Executive Government, without an enormous mass of printed matter. Take Congress in America—which does not do one-fourth of the work this House undertakes to do, because it has not got this great Empire to look after, and it does not control the Executive Government—and I would venture to say that the publication of the mass of printed matter there is far greater than here. An hon. Member described the experience of Members of this House going away some time and finding a great mass of books and papers awaiting them when they come back. That is a waste on their part, because if they took the trouble to go to the Vote Office and stop these Blue Books coming, of course they would stop, and this accumulation would not take place. But you cannot lay down a rule and order a Member of this House to stop the Blue Books coming if he does not wish to read them.

    Is it not a better system that they should ask for the Papers which they wish to see?

    That has been tried over and over again. We started the Pink Paper, which hon. Members receive every morning, in order to carry out that idea. It was found that hon. Members were extremely angry. The Pink Paper comes still, but in spite of that we get nearly all the publications of the House without asking for them.

    It is owing to the constant complaints of hon. Members who did not receive Papers, and then were told that they ought to ask for them on the Pink Paper. It is inevitable in a great machine like this House. What interests one man does not interest another man, and one particular Paper out of a dozen or fifteen is the one that you just want to see, and you are extremely angry if it is left out, and you complain to the Secretary to the Treasury, or whoever has control, and say that you have been treated in the most scandalous way, and that the Paper which you most wanted to see was not sent to you this morning. When they were referred to in the Pink Paper, hon. Members got extremely impatient and wanted to have the Papers sent. I remember myself being extremely angry on two or three occasions when I had to come and sign the Pink Paper and make inquiries for some Paper that I wanted. The result has been a gradual slipping back into the old practice of sending practically all Papers to all Members. In my opinion, when they are printed at all, the saving effected by cutting off a few Papers from a few Members is extremely trifling. I do not believe that much can be done in this way because the universal experience has been that this enormous waste of printed matter is inseparable from a great democratic Parliament. That is especially the case with a House like this, which is unique in the world, and not only undertakes to legislate for various people, but to control a world-wide Empire, and to control every operation of the Executive of the country, a function which no other House in the whole world undertakes. However, it was not to criticise the hon. Member that I rose, but to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will kindly look into the matter to which I have directed his attention, and, if he is satisfied that I am right, give directions, that in future all really important Royal Commissions—such, for instance, as the various Irish Land Commissions—all great historical works of the utmost importance, shall be printed in octavo form. I have them all at home. They are rotting in a loft, a vast pile of them. They are works of amazing value. If they were bound in proper volumes all Irishmen or Englishmen who took an interest in that: vitally important subject would have them on his library shelves to refer to. It has frequently happened that when I wanted to refer to the Royal Commission Reports on Irish land legislation, of which there have been twenty large volumes during the last twenty years, I have gone hunting for them, and given the thing up in despair, for I have found them mouldering away and really unfit to be handled. I think that that is a reform which the-Secretary to the Treasury might safely undertake.

    The hon. Member for Pontefract complained that no suggestions had been made for future economy, though I think that the Chairman did explain that certain economics had been made. He then proceeded to destroy, or attempt to destroy, the very important suggestion of the Committee with regard to a very great economy that might be effected, assuming that the House later on agreed to the establishment of a State printing office. Of course, there is bound to be a diversity of opinion on this point, but I would draw attention to this fact, that several years ago the House decided to have its own reporting staff, and, as the result of that, substantial economy has been effected. I am not so much concerned about economy as about the welfare of those who have to do the work. I submit that before this House had its own reporting staff the men who were employed by a contractor were discharged year after year at a period of the year when it was impossible for those men to secure other engagements, and they were therefore kept three or four months, or longer, according to the length of the recess, idle in the market place nearly all the time; whereas under the present system those gentlemen are secured in their employment, and they have not to face the recess with the feeling of probable unemployment. Coupled with that we have the fact that an economy has been effected. I hope that that little incident will be sufficient to insure the support of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London when this proposal for the establishment of a State printing office comes on. Why should this subject be be approached in any spirit of animosity? There are at present ten or a dozen printing offices set up in Government Departments, but they are not Government printing offices. They are simply installed in Government premises. They are run by contractors, and neither the House nor the Stationery Office can exercise any control over their work.

    6.P.M

    My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich has referred to the question of extra payments by this House through the Stationery Office for confidential work. May I say that it is the contracting firm that gets the benefit of that payment for confidential work, and not the men who are called upon to produce that work? That should not prevail. If there was a State printing office, I take it that, if there was any extra payment for confidential work, the House would desire that the men who did the work, the men responsible for keeping their mouths closed and not imparting the information outside the office, would be the people to get the benefit of that extra payment. At present the money which is a recognised payment goes into the pockets of the contractors, and those working men who, to their credit be it said, have never been found guilty of imparting information or breaking the confidence reposed in them, do not get a brass farthing of extra payment. May I say a word now with regard to contractors holding big contracts doing portions of their work outside London? They go to places where there is no other printing establishment, where there are no industries except agriculture, and they start a large office and set up their own standard of wage. They are able to get labour, female labour particularly, very cheap, and I ask this House how the contractor, doing his work under those circumstances, can be said to be complying with the Fair-Wages Clause of this House. As I understand that Clause, it was the recognition of the standard rate of wage. The Stationery Office by its method of allowing this work to be undertaken by these particular contractors is unconsciously enabling them to evade the spirit and intention of the Clause passed by this House. I want to emphasise the point raised by the hon. Member for Norwich, and ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he would be good enough to inquire very closely into this matter in Order to see if it is not possible to insist that these particular contractors shall conform literally, in spirit and intention, to the Clause, which has taken up a lot of the time of the House, and which eventually, I think by common consent, was placed upon the Minutes of the House. One word with regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) as to the abandonment of the Division Lists published with the Votes and Proceedings. Those lists, so far as I know, have been running for many years, and have been found extremely useful. I do not express any opinion on the printing of the daily part—it is very good—but for the Division Lists the type is small, and men who are getting on in years perhaps do not care about it. I would suggest, therefore, that it is worthy of reconsideration whether the present system of issuing the large type Division Lists, where you can see the names at a glance, and as it were read as you run, should not be retained. I submit that the point is one well worthy of reconsideration by hon. Members.

    I hope that the House will agree to the proposal of a State printing office, and give it a trial, not on any small scale, nor on any niggardly scale. A very considerable sum is spent on printing, and surely some of it could with advantage be given to a State printing office, if only for the reason, apart from other considerations, that it would secure continuity of employment as against the present system in the trade. When this House rises there may be any number of men, from 150 to 300 thrown upon the streets—just as it was with the reporting staff years ago—and thrown upon the streets at a time when it is impossible or next to impossible to get employment. I take it that one of the objects of a State printing office would be to so regulate the work—and you have got plenty to select from—as to ensure continuous employment of the staff, and from that point of view alone, 30 far as the arguments are concerned, the proposal should commend itself to hon. Members, and I very sincerely trust that this aspect of the case will commend itself to hon. Members who at present do not see eye to eye with the Committee in their recommendations.

    Reference has been made to the large increase in the clerical staff, a circumstance which is all the more noteworthy because the increase in the clerical staff is very much greater in proportion than the increase, apparently, of those who do the manual work of the office. If "we look at the assistant warehousemen, the increase is from twenty-eight to thirty; in the second division clerks it is from twenty-eight to thirty-five; printing clerks, eighteen to twenty-five; assistant clerks, twenty-eight to forty-three. The appointment of clerks apparently has become an absolute disease with the present Government, and I think we ought to know why it is so disproportionate to other classes of appointments. (Jan the hon. Gentleman give any explanation why the "Dublin Gazette" costs far more for printing and paper than, for instance, the "Edinburgh Gazette," the proceeds from the sale of which is over £3,000, while the printing only costs £493. The "Dublin Gazette" brings in only £833 instead of £3,000, and the printing of the "Dublin Gazette" is £730 instead of £493. With regard to the question of the Blue Books sent round with the Votes and Proceedings, I think a great number are sent to Members that are absolutely unnecessary. White Papers, Estimates, and similar documents are of course very necessary to hon. Members, but Blue Books on every sort of subject are not required by Members, and if they are they can perfectly well take the trouble to fill up the Pink Paper and send for what they require.

    I submit that there is not one Member out of fifty who looks at the Blue Books which are sent to him, and they are simply sent straight to the wastepaper basket. They not only cost the country a lot of money, but they give the housemaids a great deal of work in clearing the waste-paper baskets. With regard to the Division Lists, I certainly join with those who have said that it would not be right to abandon sending them round with the Votes. Everyone knows that the OFFICIAL REPORT is not regarded as having the same official character as the Votes and Proceedings printed on blue paper and sent to hon. Members, and for that reason, if for no other, I think that the Division Lists ought to be continued The hon. Member for Pontefract alluded to the fact that the lists were very useful, and I am perfectly certain that they are, for I find that he did me the honour in my Constituency of referring to some of the votes I have given in the House of Commons. I have no doubt that other hon. Members find these Division Lists equally useful. I think the question of the Blue Books is a matter where economies might be practised, and if Members are so idle that they will not take the trouble to fill up the Pink Paper asking for the Blue Books they require, then they ought not to have any at all.

    I want to add a word to what has been said by other hon. Members, to the effect that there must be a great deal of extravagance and waste in the Vote which we are now asked to pass. I do not like waste, and I do not think any of us want it, nor do we wish to be too rigid in economy, but the sum which the Vote asks strikes me as too much to spend for printing, paper, binding, and so on. I have been looking into the details, and I see that the salaries have gone up nearly £6,000. I hope my hon. Friend in charge of this Estimate will explain how that has come to pass. Other expenses show a large increase, and one a very large decrease. There is an increase of £18,000 in the expenditure for printing and yet a decrease of £31,000 in the paper printed upon. I presume that comes from the fact that a large stock of paper was already in hand. I want to emphasise the fact that my own observation—and I ask other Members whether their observation does not confirm mine—convinces me that in many of the public Departments, and especially in the printing that is done for the House of Commons itself, there is a great deal of waste. The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite I think found a mare's-nest when he spoke of the encumbrance of all the Blue Books which are sent round to hon. Members, and in many of which they take little or no interest. He referred to the Pink Paper. I believe that unless a Member orders his books to be sent to him—every Member has the right to have them all—he will not have any excepting those which he enters upon the Pink Paper. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Is not that so "No doubt my hon. Friend will explain what the rule is, but I think I am not very far wrong. I believe that unless a Member desires to have all the Papers issued he will not get them unless he enters them upon the Pink Paper. A great economy was effected by the introduction of that Pink Paper about twenty years ago, and other economies of a similar character, I am quite certain, might easily be effected. I went to get a a copy of the Journal, which is a huge volume that one can hardly lift, but I see that another Member has borrowed it. He might hold it up and exhibit it. It is an enormous volume of nearly 1,000 pages, and I undertake to say that no one reads it, and that it is an absolute waste; it is of no use to anybody, and is a survival. It is not only the printing and the paper of which it consists which has to be taken into consideration, but there is an office and a staff of clerks who prepare it and bring it up to date day by day. I will undertake to say that it is practically of no use to anybody in the wide world, except perhaps someone occasionally in the British Museum.

    But I did not get up to make complaints at all to my hon. Friend; I only wish to ask him whether he will consider what steps can be taken for a thorough overhauling of the Papers issued to Members of the House. In regard to the Blue Papers sent every morning to Members, how much of them is waste? I make a practice of looking through mine every day—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—with more or less care, or nearly every day. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] That cheer confirms my observation that these Papers are not read, and I will undertake to say that there are not 10 per cent. of Members of this House who go carefully through their Papers every morning. I do not want to accuse anybody, and all I can say is I hope they do go through their Papers. All through our arrangements here, without specifying details. I do suggest that a careful consideration of what might be continued and discontinued would lead to some rather serious economies. Everyone, I am quite sure, must be conscious of the way in which Papers, that we have neither the time nor the opportunity to consider and that we do not really care to-read, or in which we do not take any particular interest, accumulate in our houses. I have a very small house and library, and I find that that house is getting almost overwhelmed with the accumulation of Parliamentary Papers. I have bought a large wastepaper basket, but it would require to be bigger and bigger every year. I find it, the most useful article of furniture which a Member of Parliament can have. I beg to thank, on my own behalf, the hon. Member for Bury (Sir G. Toulmin) for the excellent service which he is rendering as Chairman of the Publications and Debates Reports Committee. There are other members of that Committee present to whom I think our best thanks are also due. I believe that further great and useful results may come from that. Committee. The expenditure of public money, not only on printing, but in all Departments, is not sufficiently watched, or not vigilantly enough safeguarded, and I think it is the duty of Members of Parliament not to be narrow economists, for I do not ask them to be that, but to realise that the money which is being spent is money which is taken out of the pockets, very often, of the poor taxpayer.

    I hope that the Secretary to the Treasury in his reply will not respond favourably to the blandishments which have been held out to him by the Labour Members for the purpose of setting up a State printing department. That would add to the trouble which the hon. Gentleman must already have in dealing with State employés in many phases, and particularly with regard to applications constantly made for improvement in position and in wages. I "would also anticipate that there would be considerable difficulties in the way of setting up a State printing department, because I take it that during the Session of this House much of this printed matter has to be produced under great pressure, but should the House resort to the old practice of adjourning in August and reassembling in February then I rather wonder what the State printing department would have to do in the meantime. One hon. Member suggested that there would be continuity employment. That would be at the expense of the State, because during the Recess there would be very little printing to be done. Remarks have been made as to the printers. I do not suppose those Government printers are culprits, but some other printers are held out as culprits because they send printing away to the provinces where perhaps the conditions compelled by trade unions and other organisations are not quite so stringent, and, perhaps, where the Factory Acts are not quite so stringent, and where the employers are able to get the work done on their own terms, on fair conditions, and with less interference by strikes. Continuity of employment cannot, I think, be guaranteed by any State Department in this particular matter. It is surely better to have printers at your hand, who are able to let you have your requirements with the quickest possible dispatch, rather than that you should have a department set up which would be five months idle. There are other considerations. If you create this printing department, you would be adding another branch to the Civil Service, and everybody, from the porter at the door to the master hand, would be a Civil servant, and would want State superannuation and State medical attendance, and other things thrown in, and you would have the many demands which are made on the Government through the various Departments. Therefore, I think, that the setting up of a department like that of printing would be a calamity to which, I hope, the right hon. Gentleman will not agree to.

    There was one observation which fell from the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) which appeared to me to be a very valuable suggestion, and that was that Blue Rooks, or, rather, Reports of Royal Commissions, should be issued in less unwieldy form. When I heard that suggestion there came into my mind a recent instance in which it was put into practice, and that was in the very important case of the Report of the Poor Law Commission. In addition to issuing the Report in the unwieldy form of a volume six or eight inches thick, it was also issued in three very convenient little octavo volumes. I would like to know whether the smaller octavo form was placed on the Pink Paper and made available to Members in the ordinary way, or whether it was only placed on sale at Wyman's and the other establishments. The question is an interesting one, and I should like to know from my hon. Friend whether he can give us any information as to whether that publication in that octavo form was a financial success, and whether it is possible to follow it in the future?

    Yes, like them. The hon. Member for Southport (Major White) complained of the fact that Members did not read the Reports of the Consul from Timbuctu or somewhere else. That is, I think, an instance in which the Member of Parliament would have to give notice through the Pink Paper. It is also true that there are certain classes of Papers which we have got to have whether we like them or not, such as the Paper relating to the Irish Command. That, is the class of Paper no one objects to, and which every Member would desire to get at the earliest possible opportunity, and it would be very inconvenient to have to come down specially to the House in order to get such Papers. In addition to that, there are other Papers—although I am not sure, and I am asking for information—such as Reports of Royal Commissions, which are sent to every Member without exception. We do not get Reports of Select Committees. I should be glad if my hon. Friend would say why we must necessarily have issued every Report of a Royal Commission to Members of Parliament, and whether they could not be put on the Pink Paper.

    I think the White Papers are always sent round with the Votes. I should like to ask what are the regulations with regard to the Pink Paper, because there does not seem to be any particular rule governing the matter. Occasionally Papers come with the Votes, and other Papers of the same kind are only obtained on application through the Pink Paper. There was one point raised by the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) with reference to this question of the Pink Paper. As a result of a discussion on this Vote in former years it was decided that all Papers except actual Votes and Proceedings should be obtained by means of the Pink Paper. The hon. Member said that that was given up because Members were extremely angry that they had difficulty in obtaining some Papers. I suggest that that was an insufficient reason for giving up that practice, which, I think, would really save tons of printed matter being sent around. I should have thought a simple way out of this difficulty would be to put everything on the Pink Paper, with the exception of Votes and Proceedings—that is to say, Estimates and everything else—while perhaps White Papers might be sent round, but everything else would have to be applied for. Estimates like these are sent around, but they are hardly ever read, but if an hon. Member does look at them he comes down to the House and he gets another copy. There might also be some rule as to the number of copies of the Estimates. At present, I think, there is some limit—between six and twelve. What often happens, showing the lavish way in which hon. Members deal with printed matter placed at their disposal by a grateful country, is that, having got a copy of the Estimates out of the Votes Office, hon. Members read it and leave it somewhere, perhaps in the Lobby or in the Library, and immediately go and apply for another copy. It would be quite a simple thing to give instructions to the clerks in the Vote Office not to supply hon. Members with more than two copies of the Estimates in the House itself.

    I suggest that everything should be placed on the Pink Paper, except Votes and Proceedings and White Papers, which as a rule are published to deal with some emergency which has arisen. I cannot see that the hardship of which the hon. Member for East Mayo complained is a very serious one. If hon. Members are so slack as not to fill in the Pink Paper and sign their names, they should not be encouraged to have printed matter of any kind. I think it is generally agreed in this rather useful discussion that there is an enormous waste of printed matter. For ten years I have attended most of these discussions and year after year the same complaint is made, and nothing has been done to really reduce this sum of £1,069,272. The hon. Member for East Mayo gave us an interesting account of what took place in the American House of Representatives, which he said had to deal with less important issues and had a very much heavier printing bill. I am not quite sure that I can accept that. I think there are a hundred millions of people in the United States, and while it is difficult to get a comparison, because of our self-governing Dominions, in which there is very little printed matter published, I think probably the matters there are just as important as in this House. I do not think that what happens in other Chambers is any reason why our printing bill should be so enormous here. There was one other thing mentioned by the hon. Member for East Mayo with which I most heartily agree, and that is, as to the manner in which Blue Books are got up. There is no doubt of the fact, as he stated, that many Blue Books repay study and are worth keeping, and are often of deep human interest to anyone who studies the affairs of the British Empire. What happens at present is when one receives those Blue Books they are put away, and even though in the most admirable bookcase and in a dry house you will find that in a year or two the cover has crumbled away and the book is altogether different from the condition in which is was received.

    I suggest that without very much extra cost Blue Books might be bound in that form of stiff binding that is used for the copies of the Army (Annual) Bill. I do not think it is used for any other form of publication that we have in this House. It is a thin cardboard, which would enable the books to be put away in a bookcase, which at present is almost an impossibility. This small reform would add little, if anything, to the cost, and it would make the Blue Books much more convenient. Another point in connection with Blue Books is that there is no space between the matter dealing with different subjects, as there would be between two chapters in an ordinary publication. They are, too, often badly indexed. Having regard to the importance of the matter frequently dealt with in Blue Books, their get-up leaves very much to be desired, In regard to Sub-head "I"—"Books and Maps for Public Departments," to what maps does that refer? Does it refer to the Ordnance Survey maps of this country, or to maps of different parts of the British Empire? The provision of maps to Government offices is most necessary, having regard to the fact that on a famous occasion when the question of a certain place came up at a Cabinet meeting a Member of the Liberal Administration believed it to be in the South Sea Islands. I have not found any provision in this Vote for the actual surveying, so perhaps I ought to raise the point on another occasion. I want to ask whether maps for different parts of the Dependencies in Africa are available, and, if so, whether they can be copied by private map-making firms. The reason I ask is that the other day I endeavoured to obtain maps of two of our Colonies in Africa. I was given a map which was utterly inaccurate, and I was told that there was no Government map, or that if there was there was no opportunity for making use of it. I suggest that if there are maps of different parts of the Empire they might be put at the disposal of cartographers, and facilities provided in that direction.

    I do not want to go into small points which might well be left to the Committee which has charge of these matters. I cannot help feeling that the whole system in regard to Blue Books ought to be carefully reviewed. The present system dates back to the time when men had greater leisure, and these books could be spread out on a library table and read quietly. The time has come for the embodiment of the information contained in Blue Books in volumes of an octavo or similar form so that they could be carried about in one's bag and studied at odd moments. At any rate, they would always be far more available than they are at present. I make this criticism very seriously. The information contained in Blue Books is often thoroughly well worth preserving, but to a large extent it is lost because of the antique and cumbrous method in which the books are bound. During the years I have been a Member I have watched the growth of the shelves in this House with a great deal of amused interest, as I have speculated how long this building will be able to provide shelving accommodation for the steady increase of literature which is being piled up literally by the ton every year. Those who refer to the old records of this House, as I have done, will, I think, agree that the old type of printing and the old paper used are of a more enduring character than is the case at the present day, and that books a century old on the shelves of this House will be useful and readable books when the great mass of the wood pulp paper books which are being piled on the shelves year by year have passed into dust and illegibility.

    Although my hon. Friend has doubtless got his speech completed, and will probably take no notice of my suggestion, I hope that even if he does not think it worthy of a reply, he will, out of the large measure of courtesy which he possesses, allow it to make some impression upon his mind. In view of the large range of fine thin opaque papers now on the market, I suggest that a certain number of copies of Blue Books for reference purposes, for Government offices, and possibly for the British Museum, should be printed on thin opaque paper, which may reasonably be expected to endure for centuries if need be, which will occupy a very small space indeed, and which, if the volumes are bound in a decent binding, will last for years to come. I would suggest that we should not be to meticulous in our pursuit of economy in this matter. Printers' ink in any business undertaking is not all waste, and in a gigantic business undertaking, such as is controlled from the floor of this House, reaching out in an infinite variety of ramifications over the wide world, we may easily be penny wise and pound foolish in this matter. Therefore, my plea is for an intensification of the quality, durability, handiness, and accessibility of our literature, and that I have no doubt my hon. Friend will bear carefully in mind.

    There is a rather alarming reference in the Estimates in connection with the "London Gazette"—"Clerk of the late 'London Gazette' Office." The "London Gazette" is a publication of great importance and interest, and I hope that that note does not refer to any suspension of publication. I wish to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon. Member who initiated this Debate in reference to the lady typists. It seems to me that the salary paid to these ladies is rather inadequate. I think it is specially incumbent upon hon. Members who, like myself, are very strongly opposed to Woman Suffrage, never to lose an opportunity of insisting that women under the control of Government Departments should get a proper wage.

    I wish to reply at once to the very impressive and valuable speech made by my hon. Friend (Sir Walter Essex) in reference to the paper upon which Government publications are printed. I will, of course, look into the matter, but my information is that all official publications are printed on paper which is very different from what is described as mechanical wood pulp, and will last indefinitely. Therefore, I think my hon. Friend's fears are not well founded The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. J. Hogge) was anxious about the hours worked by the typists in the employ of the Stationery Office. They work seven hours a day. It is not easy to compare the conditions of labour in Government offices with the conditions outside, because of the questions of leave, superannuation, and so forth; but I do not think that there is any reason to suppose that the condition of typists in Government offices is worse than that of typists elsewhere.

    Yes. With regard to waste, I think the hon. Member for East Edinburgh mistook an Appropriation-in-Aid for an item of cost. This waste is a very economical process of collecting waste paper from Government offices and selling it under contract, for which we get this sum of £7,000. The hon. Member asked about the contracts for printing, and how long they lasted. They last seven years, as a result of a recommendation of the Publications Committee that the period should be shortened. I think we always get enough competition to ensure a good placing of our printing contracts. We get more competition now that the form of tender has been revised, also as a result of a recommendation of the Publications Committee. The hon. Member further asked how the notepaper of the House of Commons compared with the notepaper in Government Departments generally. I have written letters both in the House of Commons and in Government Departments, but I have never detected any difference in the excellence of the stationery supplied. I ought to warn hon. Members who are interested in the cause of economy that the existing stock of House of Commons and House of Lords notepaper is, I am informed, coming to an end, and it is then proposed—I am sure this will receive the enthusiastic support of everybody—to substitute a cheaper kind of paper. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"]

    Will the address, "House of Commons. Westminster," be printed on the new paper?

    Will the right hon. Gentleman sec that the new paper supplied is of the shining kind; it is much easier to write on than the very rough?

    I think the Committee will see how difficult it is to pursue economy! The hon. Member for East Edinburgh asked some questions about "Who's Who," etc. We also supply peerages, and other similar books that the Stationery Office supplies—and this reply answers the question of the Noble Lord opposite as to the books and documents supplied to the various public Departments. Roughly speaking, and subject to strict Treasury control, the Stationery Office supplies the various Departments with the books they ask for. That includes books of reference on the peerage, "Who's Who?" etc. We also supply Bibles and Prayer Books for the Army and Navy. We supply library books for the use of the men on His Majesty's ships and for those in His Majesty's prisons. We supply maps that the various Government Departments ask for—such maps as they require in the usual exercise of their functions. These are nearly all bought; the preparation of them does not come in this Vote. I will make further inquiries as to the Noble Lord's questions and let him know the result.

    As regards free volumes, a certain number of free copies of Parliamentary issues are sent regularly to the free libraries of the country, and I do not know that anybody would wish to stop that. Every effort is made to distribute the printing given out by the Stationery Office so that a portion of it falls into the slack season of the year—that is to say, between July and September. For that period about £10,000 is set aside for different purposes. The hon. Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) wanted to know something about the increase in the staff. I venture to suggest to the Committee that we have reason to congratulate ourselves really and truly on the fact that the Stationery Office has come into very little criticism this afternoon. My predecessor in 1912 said that "the work of the Stationery Office was carried on without a flaw of any kind. …" I think the same holds good to-day. Certain points have been brought to the notice of the Committee. Still, taken as a whole, speaker after speaker has got up and said with respect to the Stationery Office that it does its work very well indeed. I would also further point out, for the satisfaction of those who are searching for economy, that the total of this Vote shows a net decrease of £8,436.

    Perhaps the hon. Baronet would like it much better if the Estimate had showed an increase and not a decrease? In regard to the staff it must be remembered by the House of Commons, and the country generally, that they are responsible indirectly. If Members introduce Bills, if this House passes Acts of Parliament, it increases the staff in the various Departments, and that increase is reflected in the Stationery Office and all through the public services. It is such Acts as the Insurance Act, the Old Age Pension Acts, the Labour Exchanges Act, that account to a very large extent for the increase in the staff which appears in these Estimates. In reply to another query of the hon. Member for East Nottingham as to the exact cost, the hon. Member will see that there has been a certain amount of rearrangement. There has been an increase, it is quite true, in some grades of the clerks, but the assistant heads of branches have disappeared altogether. There has been a rearrangement of offices which meant some decrease, but against that an increase must be set. There has been a general rise in the cost of the staff, I admit, because there has been a general increase in the staff to cope with modern requirements. There is another reason for the increase of staff. The newer contracts are somewhat more complicated than the old. They are drawn with a view to obtaining greater economy, and in a?More particular manner; therefore the technical staff of the Stationery Office has had to be increased so as to be able to inspect the contracts more carefully.

    I come to the speech of the hon. Member for Bury (Sir George Toulmin). I should like, if I may, to re-echo the words of thanks which have been repeated through the afternoon to those Members of the Committee over which the hon. Member presides for the extremely valuable work that has been done by the Committee. Much economy will result from careful attention to the recommendations of that Committee which the Stationery Office has always, I think, shown. I do not want to trouble the Committee now, but if hon. Members will look at the Report of the Committee in 1912, and again in 1913, and note the recommendations which the Committee made, and see how many of them have already been carried out by the Stationery Office, it will be not only a satisfaction to those who have worked upon the Committee, but also a: good augury for the carrying out of any recommendations that the Committee may have to make in the future. That brings me to a very difficult question of printing by the Government itself which has been suggested in this Debate. Fortunately, I am relieved from making up my mind and from expressing any opinion on the subject at the moment, because, although the Chairman and one hon. Member of the Committee have expressed their intention of reporting in favour of it, and although so far as I know no Member of the Committee has expressed his opinion of voting against the recommendation to inquire, we have not yet received the Report of the Publications Committee on the subject. All I can say is that I understand that the change that the hon. Member has in mind is not that we should undertake all our printing. That is a question which has already been considered, and has already been dismissed as unwise and impracticable. The suggestion is made in order that the Stationery Office may control better and keep their expert assistants up-to-date, so as to lessen the expense of what I may call exceptional printing, for which it is difficult to get many tenders, and which there is some reason to believe the Stationery Office could do cheaper. If this idea materialises in the Report of the Publications Committee I can promise the hon. Member it will be given very careful consideration. Many hon. Members have spoken about the number of publications which Members of the House of Commons get, and of the economy that could be effected by finding some other means of distributing these publications. The suggestion of the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) it seemed to me was a very good one about a convenient size for Blue Books. He will remember, as my hon. Friend the Member for Montrose said, that the Majority Report and the Minority Report of the Poor Law Commission were published in octavo size and are now on sale, and I believe have been successful. I will gladly go further, if possible, in this matter. I am informed that the present printing is cheaper, and that the printing in octavo form is a somewhat expensive proceeding; but, if it is for the general convenience, if there is a general demand for Blue Books in the form mentioned, especially when it is of permanent value, I think I may say, without committing myself without further inquiry—

    I only made the suggestion in relation to the more valuable and important Blue Books that have permanent value, not those dealing with temporary subjects. Those which are not of permanent value are good enough as they are.

    If we publish Blue Books at all, it is well that they should be published in a form in which they can be conveniently used. I am very much obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman for his suggestion. The hon. Member for Guildford raised a question which has already come before me at the Treasury, and that is, that every Member serving on a Committee of the House of Commons, who applies for it, should be furnished with a case for his Papers. He thought that that could be done very cheaply. I do not think that that is a suggestion with which the Stationery Office ought to comply. The cheapest box that you could possibly get would cost something like 6s., and the number of boxes that might be required is almost indefinite. After all, every Member of Parliament has got his locker, and Members of Parliament have got their neat little brown cases with which they walk about the Lobbies. I do not really think that the demand would justify the expense. Two hon. Members raised the point of the Fair-Wages Clause in Government contracts. It is intended that the Stationery Office should insist upon the observance of the Fair-Wages Resolution both in the letter and in the spirit. I hope I shall have assent when I say that the record of the Stationery Office has been a very good one in the past, but I shall only be too glad to receive and communicate with those concerned any examples, or allegations, that require investigation of a breach of the Fair-Wages Resolution on the part of any of the contractors for Government printing. I will inquire into the case of Dunstable, although I do not suppose the hon. Member (Mr. Bowerman) wishes to suggest that the conditions which apply at a branch establishment should be the same as those that apply in London? I really cannot find that there has been any breach of the Fair-Wages Resolution.

    Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire how it is that in these two particular districts no trade unionists are employed: is not that a violation of the Fair-Wages Resolution?

    It would be a violation of the spirit of the Fair-Wages Resolution if preferential treatment and penalising treatment were given either to members or non-members of trade unions. But I shall certainly inquire into the allegation, and perhaps the hon. Member will assist me with a few more details. I think I have covered a majority of the points in what can be really described as an interesting, though discursive, Debate.

    Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down will he deal with my suggestion that the Blue Books should be bound in some stiff binding? This suggestion I would venture to apply not only to those Blue Books to which the hon. and learned Member for East Mayo referred, but to others. I suggest that they might be bound in the same material as the Army (Annual) Bill. I do not think it would add to the cost.

    I apologise to the Noble Lord for having forgotten that point. This also is a question upon which I will consult the officials. The Noble Lord asked me a question as to what Papers are distributed to Members of Parliament, and as to what Papers it was necessary to wait for the signature of Members on the Pink Paper for. Certain Papers go to Members of Parliament automatically, like the Votes and Proceedings. The White Paper which was issued last night is marked for delivery to all Members by the Department on whose behalf it is issued. I have listened with very great attention as Secretary to the Treasury to the suggestions-which hon. Members have made for reducing the output of Papers to Members of Parliament, though it docs not, strictly speaking, come within the Stationery Office Vote; but it is a matter, I understand, upon which the Publications Committee can advise the authorities of the House of Commons, and it is a matter upon which the Treasury may make suggestions for the curtailment of the expenditure.

    Would the hon. Gentleman explain the high cost of the "Dublin Gazette"?

    7.0 P.M.

    I do not know why it is. There are three separate contracts, one for the "London Gazette," one for the "Dublin Gazette," and one for the "Edinburgh Gazette." There is an amount in Appropriations ii-Aid set against the cost in the way of stamps and so on, but I will make further inquiries. Perhaps if the hon. Gentleman will put down a question I will get the facts.

    I beg to move, to reduce Item E (Printing for Public Departments) by £28,000.

    The hon. Gentleman has said that if the Committee recommended that a small departure should be made in the direction of setting up a Government printing department it will have his careful consideration. That does not mean very much, I am glad to say, and therefore I will not pursue that subject further, except to call attention to the remarks of the hon. Member opposite who said that although the difficulty is in the commencement in setting up a printing department in a small way, it should be remembered that it should be set up in such a way that if it proved a success it could be extended. It is, however, a bad principle. People who come forward desiring to set up a bad thing always commence in a small way, and they endeavour to get sympathy from their opponents by saying that "it is such a little thing," and then the moment they have got the little thing, they say "it is going to grow," and they say, "You see how it has turned out, and you have adopted the principle when you agreed to start this little infant." Therefore I hope that the careful consideration the hon. Gentleman is going to give this matter will not lead him into the great mistake of starting another State Department. Item E, on which I move this reduction, is an item for £378,000 devoted to printing for public Departments. It will be found on page 115, and shows an increase of £18,000 upon the previous year's expenditure. Now the hon. Member forgot, I think inadvertently, to answer the question which was put to him by the hon. Member for Salford, who pointed out that while this item had increased from £360,000 to £378,000, at the same time the next item, which is paper to public Departments, had decreased by £31,000, and he asked how it was that the cost of printing increased while the cost of paper decreased?

    The hon. Gentleman himself suggested the answer when he said that there was paper in stock which might be used, and I nodded assent to it.

    That does answer my question, but that does not touch the fact that the printing has increased by £18,000. If hon. Members will turn to page 120 they will see that in the year 1910–11 the total of printing for England was £233,794. In the year 1911–12 printing had increased to £265,356, and in the year 1912–13 it had increased to £344,067. Then in the year 1914 it had increased to £360,000, and this year it has increased still further to £378,000—that is to say, in four years it has increased from £233,794 to £378,000. It may be that I ought to have included the total for England and Ireland, but that makes a small amount of difference. But if I take the whole figures the expenditure in 1910–11 was £257,000, instead of £233,794, but in any case there is an increase of £112,000 for printing alone in four years. I think, to a certain extent, the answer is supplied by the hon. Member for Bury and by the Secretary to the Treasury himself. He said if this House puts upon the Stationery Department increased work in the shape of expenditure for Labour Exchanges and for the insurance committees, the Committee must not grumble at the expenditure. I am not sure that that is a good argument. I think if the Government bring in measures which the public do not understand, and if it is necessary to spend large sums of money in order to make the public understand the benefits of a measure which is doing them a great deal of harm, and in order to convince them that what is doing them harm is doing them good, it is right that we should raise our voices in this House against such wasteful expenditure. Let measures stand by themselves. Let the Government come forward and say plainly, "We must spend all this money, which is the money of the taxpayers, and which affects people of divergent opinions, in order to make people think that they are getting something nice, in order to make them think that instead of getting a penny they are getting a shilling, and that instead of getting something bad they are getting something good, and we must print all these leaflets and circulars and variety of documents." And, therefore, I move this Amendment to reduce this sum by £28,000, so as to make the amount £350,000.

    I am sorry that the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) is not in his place, because if he were probably as an advocate of economy he would vote with me, if he heard my argument, whereas I am afraid now, when he comes into the House he will be laid hold of by one of the Whips and induced to go into the wrong Lobby. There are many hon. Members opposite who will agree with me that this expenditure is wasteful and extravagant. I am quite certain, if the positions were reversed, and if we were sitting upon the Government side of the House, and if we proposed to spend large sums of money in advancing our measures, we should have a tremendous amount of criticism from these hon. Gentlemen opposite. I am sure the hon. Member for East Northampton would come down with tons of figures proving this, that, and the other, and that we were absolutely wrong, and that all our papers and all our statistics were quite wrong.

    Is the hon. Baronet aware that some of the most important Papers are not printed and circulated to Members at all. Not even the Treasury accounts are in print for the benefit of hon. Members of this House, and, therefore, he ought to wish for increased Papers.

    The hon. Member must know it is not in my power to move to increase the Vote, even if I wished to do so. The hon. Member has advanced a very strong argument for supporting me, and I do not see how he can do anything else but support me after the interruption he has made. He says there are certain things that ought to be included. I rather think there is valuable information which ought to be given to hon. Members of this House and other people, and if the hon. Gentleman votes with me he will be voting to leave out that which is wrong, which will enable us to put in that which is right. Therefore, I hope I have convinced the hon. Member and that he will be found in the Lobby with me when we come to a Division. Speaking quite seriously, I think it is not right that large sums of money should be spent by the State in advancing the doctrines of any particular party.

    How does the hon. Member make out that this money is spent to forward the interests of a particular party?

    I must point out that the hon. Baronet is raising a question of policy controlled by another Department, and which could be criticised upon another Vote, namely, the Insurance Vote.

    I will not allude to it any further except to say that perhaps the hon. Member opposite is right in saying that it does not advance the interests of his party, but at the same time it is costing the nation a considerable amount of money, and therefore I move this reduction of Item E.

    I really think that the remark made from the Chair is the answer to the hon. Baronet's speech. It is not quite fair because the hon. Member disapproves of something which the Stationery Office carries on on behalf of another Department, that he should move a reduction on the Stationery Office Vote, because he has no opportunity this afternoon of moving a reduction in connection with that other Department. I should like to tell the hon. Baronet that the increase this year is not due to insurance leaflets. There are cards and documents to be printed which cannot by any stretch of the imagination be said to be for party interests.

    I based my opening remarks upon the fact that this item has increased from £257,000 to £378,000, and therefore there is an enormous increase which I think is not justified.

    I think the proper place to object is upon the Votes for the Department for which the work is done.

    Has not the hon. Gentleman's Department power now, when another Department comes to it and says, "We want so much matter to be printed," to refuse them?

    The Treasury is constantly waging war with a view to controlling that expenditure, but it is a very difficult matter. The real offenders are Members of Parliament, who seem to have an insatiable appetite for Returns, and really there is no more dangerous man to meet in the Lobby than the man who has just been refused a Return from motives of economy. Part of this increase is due to the fact that some new contracts running from year to year contain payments for composition which will not occur as the years go on, and therefore it may be hoped in that respect there will be a saving.

    I understand that the Stationery Office has a right to refuse this printing. My hon. Friend's intention is to try and reduce the enormous amount of printing for public Departments, and he has been met by the argument that if you want to reduce the amount of printing you should do it on the Vote connected with the Department concerned. I understand that the Department we are now dealing with has a right to refuse printing which in the opinion of the head of the Stationery Department is excessive. What we are pressing for quite seriously is that the Department whose Vote we are now discussing should not accede to every request made for printing matter. While you, Mr. Chairman, have ruled that questions connected with insurance have nothing to do with this Vote, I think we can urge that if a Department comes down and says we wish to have some leaflets printed on the subject of swine fever in connection with the Board of Agriculture I think we have a right to demand, in view of the enormous increase in this Vote, that these demands should be very carefully scrutinised, and the Stationery Office should point out to those particular Departments the increasing cost of printing. With regard to hon. Members demanding Returns, I should think the amount for that purpose is only a very small part of this increase, and I believe it will be found on examination that most of this increase is in connection with Departments explaining their policy.

    I should like to ask how much of this increase is traceable to the length of the speeches of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury).

    I would like to point out to the hon. Baronet opposite that there would be just as much common sense in case we were discussing the railway trains on one of our main lines, and the printing bill for the Railway Guide was refused, as to decline to pay a stationery bill because we disagree with some Department on a matter of policy.

    It seems to me that there is a great waste of expenditure in duplicating the Reports issued to this House. We get a little Blue Book, which is a very valuable epitome of the work accomplished each day. We get that in the morning, but at the same time we get a duplication of the information through the other Papers. Surely there is no need for duplication—

    I wish to remind the hon. Member that that point has been raised already four or five times, and it is not desirable to repeat it.

    I was not aware that the point had been raised I am a very regular attendant in this House. I spend generally twelve hours a day here, but I feel strongly that there is a waste of public money in this connection, and not knowing that this point had been raised I felt it my duty to point it out. I believe this is a useless waste of public money, and much economy might be effected by avoiding this duplication.

    I think this Debate has been one of an exceptionally interesting and useful character, chiefly because hon. Members opposite have taken part in the Debate and contributed some very useful speeches. The point which was raised by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London with regard to the necessity of a reduction of the expenditure upon printing was a very useful and important one. It must be perfectly evident to everyone who follows the proceedings of this House, and the Papers with which we are provided every day, that expenditure upon printing forms an extremely important item in the general expenditure which is necessary for carrying on the government of the country. I do think that this expenditure is now getting beyond all bounds, and if the Government made some effort towards economy in this direction a great deal of money might be saved, and I am certain very little information would be lost to hon. Members of this House. I was particularly struck with one example of the careless and extravagant way in which the printing of the Government is conducted in connection with the White Paper which Members have recently received dealing with recent events in the Irish Command. It seems to me that the information contained in those documents might have been suitably conveyed to the House in one single document. That would have been to the advantage of hon. Members, because they would have had all this information contained within —

    That question is not in order of this Vote. Those Papers are sent to the printers, and they have to be printed as they are sent in. The hon. Member must raise that question upon another occasion.

    I suppose I should be in order in discussing the way in which these Papers have been printed?

    I suppose it would be in order to discuss the paper on which they are printed, the type, and so on?

    I want to call attention to what I consider to be a totally unnecessary piece of extravagance. It may be within the recollection of some hon. Members that after the demand which was made by the Opposition, that this correspondence should be laid before the House. It appeared in two forms, and two Papers dealing with identically the same matter and intended to be identical, although not absolutely identical, were printed by two separate printers. This is an extravagance which could have been avoided. One of these documents was printed by Messrs. Harrison and Sons, whilst the other document, which was identically the same, and circulated at the same time, was printed by Messrs. Eyre and Spottiswoode. This shows the flurry and fluster with which the Government conduct their business. I do not know why orders were given to two different printers. It was a very important question, but it was no advantage to anyone that it should be presented to the House in two different forms. This is only one of many examples of the careless, extravagant, and unbusinesslike way in which the Government conduct the affairs of this country. I hope my hon. Friend the Member for the City of London will press this matter to a Division, in order that we may have an opportunity of recording our displeasure with the Government, and mark our resentment of the unnecessary expenditure which is involved.

    I wish to protest against the suggestion that the Stationery Office has any control over what Papers should be printed for the information of this House and the country. Surely that control rests with the particular Department concerned. The Board of Agriculture, for instance, decides that a particular Paper is necessary, and it is, of course, printed subject to proper Treasury control. Surely the duty of the Stationery Office is a technical one. We know that the Stationery Office has the assistance of the Committee presided over by the hon. Member for Bury (Sir G. Toulmin), and it seems to me, really, that the hon. Baronet's Amendment is entirely out of order. The hon. Baronet has argued for a reduction of this Vote on the ground that the Stationery Office ought to interfere in regard to what Papers should or should not be printed. I submit that that is entirely out of order. With regard to the growth of printing, surely that is a matter on which the country may be congratulated, and it is the result of the extension of Parliamenary interference in certain matters. Surely we may congratulate ourselves on the fact that a larger number of subjects have been examined by various Committees, and have been dealt with by legislation. As to the use of the word economy in that direction, I think it will be a false economy indeed to cut down this Vote.

    I wish to inform the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. Sandys) that the point to which he has drawn attention has already been considered. It was due to a small error on the part of a subordinate, and it was probably dictated by anxiety to make absolutely sure that the thing was printed and not delayed at all. Personally, I do not know another instance of the same kind, and if one were brought to the notice of the Committee, it would have attention drawn to it at once. With regard to the position of the Stationery Office, I wish to say that they have no authority whatever to stop any Department printing what they desire. All they can do is to exercise tact and reason, and possibly refer to the Treasury, or in an extreme case bring it before the Publications Committee. That is the extent of their power.

    I think these proceedings have been conducted in a somewhat undignified manner, and the points which have been raised have been very small in many respects. I think this House is paying far too much attention to trivial matters. We scarcely ever take up a single Government publication in which there is not far too much of what printers describe as "fat." There is far too much space wasted, and the style of type used is often far too big for convenience, and is certainly far too big for economy. The other day I picked up a Notice Paper, for which I presume you get an estimate at so much per page. If the estimate is given in page form, I can only say it is given in a very extravagant way, and the way in which this kind of printing is produced ought to be carefully supervised and a lot of the spacing out which exists should be cut down, and perhaps yon would then get a real economy.

    Question put, "That Item E (Printing for Public Departments) be reduced by £28,000."

    The Committee divided: Ayes, 78; Noes, 243.

    Division No. 81.]

    AYES.

    [7.30 p.m.

    Agg-Gardner, James TynteGuinness, Hon. W. E. (Burys, Edmunds)Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
    Baird, John LawrenceHall, Frederick (Dulwich)Rees Sir J. D.
    Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham)Rolleston, Sir John
    Baldwin, StanleyHarris, Henry PercyRonaldshay, Earl of
    Banner, Sir John S. Harmood.Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Royds, Edmund
    Barnston, HarryHills, John WallerRutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)
    Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)Hohler, G. F.Sanders, Robert Arthur
    Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)Hope, Harry (Bute)Sanderson, Lancelot
    Blair, ReginaldHope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Spear, Sir John Ward
    Boyton, JamesHope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)Stanier, Beville
    Bridgeman, William CliveHorne, E. (Surrey, Guildford)Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
    Burn, Colonel C. R.Hunt, RowlandTalbot, Lord Edmund
    Campion, W. R.Jessel, Captain H. M.Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, North)
    Cassel, FelixKinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementTouche, George Alexander
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Larmor, Sir J.Watson, Hon. W.
    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.)Weston, Colonel J. W.
    Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R.Wheler, Granville C. H.
    Clyde, James AvonMackinder, Halford J.White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
    Craik, Sir HenryMallaby-Deeley, HarryWilloughby, Major Hon. Claud
    Denison-Pender, J. C.Newman, John R. P.Wills, Sir Gilbert
    Duke, Henry EdwardNewton, Harry KottinghamWinterton, Earl
    Du Pre, W. BaringOrmsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamWood, John (Stalybridge)
    Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.Paget, Almerio HughYate, Colonel C. E.
    Fell, ArthurParker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)Younger, Sir George
    Gibbs, George AbrahamPease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
    Gilmour, Captain JohnPollock, Ernest MurrayTELLERS FOR THE AYES—
    Clazebrock, Captain Philip K.Quilter, Sir William Eley C.Sir F. Banbury and Mr. Sandys.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)Denman, Hon. Richard DouglasHolt, Richard Durning
    Adamson, WilliamDickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H.Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
    Addison, Dr. ChristopherDillon, JohnHudson, Walter
    Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.Donelan, Captain A.Hughes, Spencer Leigh
    Alden, PercyDoris, WilliamJohn, Edward Thomas
    Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)Duffy, William J.Johnson, William
    Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)
    Arnold, SydneyDuncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)
    Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)
    Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Elverston, Sir HaroldJones, William (Carnarvonshire)
    Barnes, George N.Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)Jowett, Frederick William
    Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)Essex, Sir Richard WalterJoyce, Michael
    Beale, Sir William PhipsonEsslemont, George BirnieKellaway, Frederick George
    Beauchamp, Sir EdwardFalconer, JamesKelly, Edward
    Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George)Farrell, James PatrickKennedy, Vincent Paul
    Bentham, George JacksonFenwick, Rt. Hon. CharlesKilbride, Denis
    Boland, John PiusFfrench, PeterKing, Joseph
    Booth, Frederick HandelField, WilliamLambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)
    Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)Fiennes, Hon. Eustace EdwardLambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)
    Brace, WilliamFitzgibbon, JohnLardner, James C. R.
    Brady, Patrick JosephFlavin, Michael JosephLaw, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)
    Brocklehurst, William B.Furness, Sir Stephen WilsonLawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th)
    Brunner, John F. L.Gelder, Sir W. A.Leach, Charles
    Bryce, John AnnanGill, A. H.Levy, Sir Maurice
    Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O.Gladstone, W. G. C.Lundon, Thomas
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnGlanville, H. J.Lyell, Charles Henry
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasGoldstone, FrankLynch, Arthur Alfred
    Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)Macdonafd, J. Ramsay (Leicester)
    Byles, Sir William PollardGreig, Colonel James WilliamMacdonald, John M. (Falkirk Burghs)
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)McGhee, Richard
    Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)Maclean, Donald
    Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs, Hey wood)Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
    Chancellor, Henry GeorgeHackett, JohnMacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)
    Clancy, John JosephHancock, John GeorgeMacpherson, James Ian
    Clough, WilliamHarcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)MacVeagh, Jeremiah
    Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)M'Kean, John
    Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
    Condon, Thomas JosephHarvey, W. E, (Derbyshire, N. E.)M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hayden, John PatrickM'Micking, Major Gilbert
    Cotton, William FrancisHazleton, RichardManfield, Harry
    Crooks, WilliamHelme, Sir Nerval WatsonMarks, Sir George Croydon
    Crumley, PatrickHenderson, Arthur (Durham)Marshall, Arthur Harold
    Cullinan, JohnHenderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
    Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)Higham, John SharpMeehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix)
    Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)Hinds, JohnMolloy, Michael
    Davies, S. W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Hodge, JohnMend, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred
    Dawes, James ArthurHogge, James MylesMoney, L. G. Chiozza
    Delany, WilliamHolmes, Daniel TurnerMontagu, Hon. E. S.

    Mooney, John J.Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
    Morgan, George HayRadford, G. H.Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
    Morison, HectorRaffan, Peter WilsonTennant, Harold John
    Morton, Alpheus CleophasRea, Rt. Hon. Russell, (South Shields)Thomas, James Henry
    Muldoon, JohnRea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)Toulmin, Sir George
    Munro, Rt. Hon. RobertReddy, MichaelTrevelyan, Charles Philips
    Murphy, Martin J.Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Verney, Sir Harry
    Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.Redmond, William (Clare, E.)Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
    Nannetti, Joseph P.Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
    Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)Rendall, AthelstanWardle, George J.
    Nolan, JosephRichards, ThomasWason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
    Nugent, Sir Walter RichardRichardson, Albion (Peckham)Watt, Henry A.
    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)Webb, H.
    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Roberts, George H. (Norwich)White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
    O'Doherty, PhilipRobertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    O'Dowd, JohnRobertson, John M. (Tyneside)Whitehouse, John Howard
    O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)Robinson, SidneyWhyte, Alexander F.
    O'Malley, WilliamRoch, Walter F. (Pembroke)Wiles, Thomas
    O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)Roche, Augustine (Louth)Wilkie, Alexander
    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Roe, Sir ThomasWilliams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.)
    O'Shee, James JohnRowlands, JamesWilliams, John (Glamorgan)
    O'Sullivan, TimothyRowntree, ArnoldWilliams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
    Outhwaite, R. L.Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
    Palmer, Godfrey MarkSamuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Parker, James (Halifax)Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)Winfrey, Sir Richard
    Parry, Thomas H.Scanlan, ThomasWing, Thomas Edward
    Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)
    Phillips, John (Longford, S.)Sheehy, DavidYeo, Alfred William
    Pirie, Duncan V.Shortt, EdwardYoung, William (Perth, East)
    Pointer, JosephSmith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
    Pratt, J. W.Snowden, PhilipTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
    Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir AlbertMr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

    Original Question put, and agreed to.

    Houes Of Parliament Buildings—(Class I)

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £3–1,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which "will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, for Houses of Parliament Buildings." [Note.—£32,000 has been voted on account.]

    I want to ask the hon. Member who represents the authorities on this occasion, first of all, whether the Estimates include money for the recommendations made in the early part of last year by the Kitchen Committee. A Committee was set up for structural alterations, and they drew out certain schemes and forwarded them to the hon. Member. The Board has acceded to the minor alteration for which we asked, and I should like to know if it has been done out of maintenance. Secondly, the Board of Works informed me in a letter in August that no provision for these alterations had been made in the Estimates for the current year, 1913. I want to know whether in these Estimates the First Commissioner has made provision for the supply of a range downstairs, and of a vacuum cleaner for the dining room, the Bmoke room, and the corridor. These are absolute necessities. They have been provided in the new Government offices. There they have every modern appliance suited in every way for the requirements of the members. I confess it is a great deal owing to the fact that we are living in an old House that is ill adapted for its requirements, that we have not these modern appliances, but at the same time I think these alterations recommended by our Committee are perfectly possible, and have really been practically promised. The range is a very old one the consumption of coal is enormous, and it really is not adapted for modern requirements. Unless hon. Members are comfortable in the House, you are very unlikely to get business done with that celerity with which Ministers, at all events, would like to see it done. They have already the vacuum cleaner at the top of the building. It is an enormous saving of labour, and is almost a necessity in a public building. All you have to do is to have a further length of pipe carried from this floor where it is in daily use, to the dining room below'.

    We made a great point in our recommendations of the centralisation of the dining room and staircase. At present all the food has to be carried the whole length of the corridor; it is very tiresome, and gets in the way, and the traffic from these two rooms in and out of the service room is through one door. The result is very detrimental to the service, besides being disagreeable to Members. There was another recommendation that we should change the present Strangers' Dining Room for the present service room. The Strangers' Dining Room is very hot and uncomfortable and in every way inferior, and we recommended that it should be changed for the one on the Terrace, which is now occupied as a serving room. That would be very much to the convenience of Members and those who come to see Members on business or pleasure and dine here. That and the range are the two principal alterations which I want to impress upon the hon. Member, and in regard to which I want him to make me a promise. I will not say a definite promise, because no man ever gets a definite promise from a Minister The first thing a Minister is taught is never to give a definite promise. I have, at all events, extracted sufficient from him to say fairly that I was led to expect these alterations would be carried out as soon as they possibly could be.

    I do not wish to allude to any private conversations I had with the hon. Member, but I think I may fairly say that I understood a rearrangement was going to be made of the moneys devoted to the alterations in the House of Commons. Of course, it would not be fair if we were to be expected on the Kitchen Committee to carry out these expensive alterations that have already been promised out of future moneys to be devoted to our use. I confess that the arrangement of the dining-room will be an expensive job, but it will, at all events, conduce enormously to the convenience of Members. The First Commissioner or someone has placed in the Tea Room a portrait of a new tea room which he has designed. I think it is to take the place of the present staff bar, and work that way. It is an extremely pretty plan, and I have nothing to say against it. We should be only too glad to have it, but I think the other alterations should have priority over it, because one concerns the whole House and the other concerns only the Tea Room. The other alterations are absolutely necessary for the comfort of this House and of Members generally. An attack was made the other day upon those who provide milk for this House because a number of bacteria were found in it. But we charge nothing for these bacteria, and if various ill-disposed things are found in the milk, it is not by the wish of those who endeavour to serve you. It is necessary, in the interests of economy, safety, and the comfort of the Members, that we should get the range asked for in the kitchen, that these alterations in the Strangers' Dining Room should be made, and that the vacuum cleaner, which has proved of great advantage to the railway companies, should be brought into use at once. I press this upon the attention of the hon. Member. He has shown himself extremely kind in the way in which he has received our representations, and therefore I do not feel that I am preaching to deaf ears. I know he cannot go beyond the Estimate allowed him by the Treasury, but I would rather make the point, as to the allocation of the sum of money, that the Committee should not be put in the position of having to carry out structural arrangements, which have been already practically promised, with moneys which are only to be provided for us in the future.

    I have listened with great interest to what has fallen from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, and I am happy to inform him publicly what I told him privately, that in the money allowed for new works this year, in the Houses of Parliament Vote, there is a large sum, part of which will be put at the disposal of the Kitchen Committee in addition to the sum they ordinarily have from the Maintenance Works Vote. Which of these plans shall take priority is not a matter for the decision of the First Commissioner, but rather for that of the Kitchen Committee, of which the right hon. Gentleman is Chairman, and I hope we shall be able to come to some arrangement for the application of the money which is provided. I should like to deal at some length with one very important item which appears on the Vote this year—I mean an item of £10,000.

    I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but contrary to practice he is making his speech now. Of that I make no complaint, but I rise to ask whether we shall have the benefit of the hon. Member's reply to our detailed criticisms later on, especially in view of the fact that private business is to betaken at 8.15?

    Wesxminsteb Hall (Restoration Of Roof)

    I regret that the amount of time at our disposal is small, and that I am bound to occupy so much of it, but I think hon. Members will agree that the Vote for £10,000 put down for the restoration of the roof of Westminster Hall is a very important item, and deserves the consideration of the Committee at some length. The Committee is well aware that the roof we are going to restore is not the one which was originally built by William II. They are his walls, but the roof that was then put on was of another design, and nothing like so noble as the one we see now. It was supported by two rows of pillars. That roof lasted 400 years, down to the time of Richard II., and we now desire to make more glorious Westminster Hall, the chief public building in this country. Richard II. had the walls raised on both sides, and, with the assistance of his master carpenter, he designed the roof we now see. I am not going too far when I say that no less than 90 per cent. of the timber which we see in that roof to-day was put there by this man, Henry Yeveley. He was the great carpenter who designed it. This was absolutely the first time the hammer-beam principle was introduced in the construction of the roof, but there is no doubt that Hugh Herland, who was eighty years of age when he designed the new work, did introduce a new principle, and extended other principles which made the Westminster Hall roof one of the architectural glories of the world. There is no other wooden roof, save one erected recently in Russia, which has the same extensive span. The two towers which flanked the hall on the North side are the most interesting part of the building. It is the oldest inhabited part of Westminster Palace which remains. The north-west tower was occupied at various times by the King's relatives, and Margaret of Anjou and Henry IV.'s wife occupied it as an official residence.

    Yes; I am going to deal with that point. The roof was completed between 1393 and 1402—a period of ten years, and from that time down to the restoration of King Charles we have no record of what repairs took place. There is no reason, indeed, to suppose that any very extensive repairs were made, because during that period the structure was at its prime. But shortly after the restoration of Charles II. some repairs took place, and again, in 1683, further repairs were undertaken. We know this, because, fortunately, we have at the Record Office the accounts of the Office of Works and of the First Commissioner, from 1660 to 1702, and again from 1778 down to the present time, so that we are able to get at something like an exact account of what was done in the meantime. The House may be interested to hear that, before the year 1660, there were dormer windows in the roof, probably on both sides, although, possibly, they formed no part of the original design of Hugh Herland. They were there before the Cromwellian period. In 1780 a Committee of the House sat to inquire into the condition of the, roof, and presented a very alarming report as to the state in which it was found; but nothing appears to have been done until the beginning of the nineteenth century. In 3 816, Sir John Soane undertook the first extensive repairs of the hall and roof. At that time, in the lower part of the two towers, were planted two coffee houses—Oliver's and the Exchequer—and there are still prints in this House showing the buildings. Sir John Soane removed these and restored the towers faithfully to their original design.

    In 1834 Sir Robert Smirke, a well known architect, undertook a considerable amount of repairing, and removed from the hall a good many of the internal features. William Kent, another architect who had been responsible for the Law Courts which stood in a garden where the Cromwell statue now is, was also responsible for the wooden buildings which formed the Court of the Exchequer and the Court of King's Bench at the side. These Courts, which were constructed of wood, were removed, together with the booths and shops, at any time when great functions, such, as a Coronation feast, took place. From the time of Smirke nothing was done till Sir Charles Barry undertook the repairing of this Palace, and the House of Commons instructed him to examine the roof and make a full survey with a view to seeing what was the present condition. Sir Charles Barry removed from the east side-that is the side on which is the small courtyard called the "Star Chamber"—the buttresses which stood on that side and which were the work of the mason of Richard II., but he left the buttresses on the west side. Many hon. Members are, no doubt, aware that in the Private Bill Office on the other side of Westminster Hall, in the southwest corner of it, can be seen the buttresses across the west side of the wall. Sir Charles Barry removed those on the east side. Apparently he was not fully seized of the principles on which the hammer-beam roof was constructed, because he put in ties, shoes, and struts, and some of these ties are still visible. They apparently were put in under a false conception, and that is shown by the fact that some of them could be shaken by hand when we were inspecting the roof by means of the scaffold. He further put in struts, which are a great defacement to the roof.

    8.0 P.M.

    I hope I may be allowed to explain what we propose to do. Nothing was done from the time when Pearson removed the dormer windows on both sides in 1885. He reported that the roof was apparently in good condition. This could hardly have been the case; although the decay may not have been on the surface, it still was there. But nothing on a large scale was done. The practice of the Office of Works for many years was to employ two men, who had been sailors, to go up ladders, inspect the roof, and give their view as to what condition it was in. It was not to be expected that men with no architectural training would be able to give a technical opinion. However, the Ancient Monuments Branch of the Office of Works was responsible for a complete survey being undertaken last year. The practice of this House has been to vote a sum of £600 every year for the necessary repairs of the roof, and our architect, who controls the practical side of the Ancient Monuments Branch, a gentleman whose talents in this direction should be recognised with gratitude by this House, suggested that we should spend the money not in repairs but in hiring a scaffolding to enable a complete survey to be made. The scaffolding was hired and erected, and a complete survey was made. I doubt whether at any time there has been such a complete survey of this roof. Every joint was examined, every timber was sounded with a hammer, and a report was drawn out and will be presented to this House in due course. This examination showed that there were four causes of the present decay of the roof. The first was dry rot, the second surface decay, the third an insect—goat-moth—and fourthly, most important of all, there were very extensive ravages by a small grub called Xestobium tesscllatum. We caught some of these, and I shall be happy to exhibit them in the Tea Room. It has been responsible for very great damage to the timber. Of the 40,000 cubic feet of which the roof consists, I am afraid one must say that at least 30 per cent. has been destroyed. I do not suggest that the insect has consumed that vast quantity, but it has consumed sufficient to destroy, for all practical purposes, not only the old timber which was put in by Herland, but the new struts put in by Barry as well. Some of the chief members of the roof, the principal rafters, the wall-posts, the purlins, which go into the trusses in the bays between the hammer-beams, the hammer-beams themselves, and the baulks of wood put in by Barry only fifty years ago, have been extensively consumed by this little beast. As an instance of then-work—I may mention that they are in the larvæ state when they do this damage: We put some in a test-tube which was corked, and in four days they had succeeded in making their way to within one-eighth of an inch of the top of the cork. They had burrowed round and round but had not come out because, peculiarly enough, their instinct told them it was not the right season to come into the air, so instead of doing so they made very extensive spiral movements.

    I want to tell the Committee what is the proposal of the First Commissioner for the repair of the roof. It is obvious that the conditions by which we work must ensure the stability of the roof. We must stop the decay, and we must have regard to the beauty and historical value of the roof. In stopping decay the first important condition is that of ventilation. No doubt a great deal of damage was done owing to defective ventilation. It is proposed to restore the old flares in place of the lantern as one of the most important means of dealing with ventilation. The reintroduction of dormer windows, although not decided upon, will be considered by the First Commissioner and his advisers. As to the insect itself, of course we shall have to destroy it, but destroy it subject to certain conditions. A committee of great experts is considering the question what poison is required to fulfil these conditions. Roughly, they are as follows: You must have some insecticide which will penetrate the wood and destroy the larvas; you must see that it does not make the wood too inflammable; and it must be something which has not a persistent and unpleasant smell, which is not of a gaseous nature, which might poison the workmen and other people in the hall, and it must be something which will not destroy the metal we shall have to introduce into the wood. Given all these conditions of the problem, we have a Committee of experts on the matter advising the First Commissioner, and I hope that before long they will come to some decision.

    As to the strengthening of the roof, in order to ensure its stability there are two possible ways of going to work. First, you might follow the plan adopted by Barry, and take the existing members, in so far as they are good, piece them and support them with metal struts in their places, by making those members which are good do the amount of work which they are capable. The disadvantages of that course would be twofold. First of all, it would mean the removal of 70 per cent of the wood in the existing roof; secondly, it would mean the appearance of many steel plates and steel ties, which would be a severe disfigurement of the beauties of the roof. The plan we propose, and which I hope will commend itself to the Committee is as follows: We propose to place on William II.'s walls a steel structure which will in fact be a roof in itself. It will be strong enough to support its own weight, to support the weight of the roof, to resist the wind pressure, and also to support the weight of those timbers which are already in the roof and whose functions, therefore, really cease to have any necessary part in the structure. Perhaps hon. Members have seen the drawings placed in the Tea Room during the last few days. This steelwork will enable us to preserve all the timber, save about 35 per cent. We shall be able to save all the carved winged terminal figures at the end of the hammer-beams, and we shall be able to conceal the steelwork so that it will be far less visible even than the work put in by Barry. The collar beam—that is to say, the beam which ties the principal rafters across the head of the roof, is in two lengths of parallel pieces. The steelwork will be put up between them. The principal rafters will be supported by steelwork, which will be hidden between two sets of trusses between the strut and the beam. Except in the upper part of the roof, no steelwork will be visible, even if it were possible to see it in the light. Such steelwork as is introduced will be painted, and so far as possible, merged into the general colour of the wood, and I am of opinion that hon. Members will not know, unless they are told, of its existence.

    We shall be enabled in this way to remove the offensive struts, both steel and wood, which were introduced by Barry, and to reveal fully to those in the hall the wonderful beauty of the design of the struts and the great arched rib put up in the time of Richard II. The hon. Member for East Clare (Mr. W. Redmond) asked me a question as to where the wood came from. There has been a great deal of dispute on this point, but we have established beyond the possibility of doubt that the timber is oak. The red appearance, which has given rise to the idea that it was chestnut, is due to the surface decay to which I have referred. It is decay not of an animal but of a vegetable kind, and it only affects the surface to the maximum of one-eighth of an inch, and it has done nothing to destroy the stability of these trusses. It gives that delightful red appearance which we shall make every effort to preserve. We have taken a micrograph—that is a magnified photograph—of the texture of the wood, which proves that it is certainly oak, and not chestnut. We have certain evidence in the bills preserved in the Record Office that it came from the King's Wood at Odiham, from St. Albans, and the wood at Kingston.

    Is there-no record that some of this wood came from Cratloe, in the county of Clare? It is well known in the county, and the history of the county itself states it.

    It may be so. I can only give what evidence comes to our hands from the documents in our possession. It is proposed to remove the existing scaffolding put up for the purposes of inspection, and to erect a steel centre or scaffolding which will support the trusses which are under repair, and the bays. When that work is completed it will be removed to another pair of or three trusses, where further repair work will be undertaken. It is proposed to remove the flags from the floor of the Hall, because they themselves rest on walls and are not strong enough to support the weight of 280 tons which this steel centre, with their weight, will represent. In this Vote we take £10,000, which will enable us to erect the steel centre and commence preliminary work. We shall not put it out to contract, because it is essentially work of an experimental and tentative kind. We shall proceed with our own men. We think the work will probably extend over a period of six years. It will probably cost—although this is merely an estimate which cannot be of a definite kind—we think the work, in all, may cost £60,000. I feel sure that, although that is a large sum, the Committee will not consider it excessive. We hope to take this roof, which has covered the chief public building in England for 500 years, and to secure it from decay for all time. It is our first and greatest public building, and within its walls are enshrined the most thrilling and impressive memories of British history.

    I desire to raise one or two points in regard to matters generally included in this Vote, because this is the only opportunity of discussing them. Before proceeding to raise those points, perhaps I may be allowed to offer my congratulations to the hon. Gentleman for the very brilliant account he has given us in a very short time of the history of our greatest possession architecturally. It would be presumptuous on my part to express any opinion as to the measures he proposes to take for securing the safety of the roof, but we are well assured that he will be guided by expert advice, and we shall feel every confidence in leaving the matter in his hands and in the hands of the expert advisers of the First Commissioner. I desire to ask him a question with regard to the Victoria Tower Gardens. In those gardens there is at present being erected a considerable amount of masonry, upon which, we understand, it is proposed to erect a very beautiful and impressive piece of work, the "Burghers of Calais." Is my hon. Friend sure that the best site has been selected for this piece of sculpture? It will be within the recollection of the Committee that a year or two ago the First Commissioner gave an undertaking that he would not allow any statues or public memorials to be erected in the parts under his control, because he felt they were spaces available for the health and enjoyment of the public, and should not be encroached upon. I am well aware that he said a little time afterwards that he had assented to the erection of this piece of statuary, but if the decision that has been come to is not beyond question, I would ask my hon. Friend not to allow this group to be erected on the enormous pedestal which was indicated in the first model, because if that design is carried out it will be lifted to a distance of 18 or 20 feet, or even a greater height than that. I respectfully suggest that if this piece of sculpture is erected in the Victoria Tower Gardens at all, it should be placed on a level with the ground, so that it can be easily inspected by the public. I should have thought that a site near a museum—say, outside the Tate Gallery—would have been a very appropriate one, and would not have encroached upon the available space in Victoria Tower Gardens.

    I desire to ask one or two questions about the roof, supplementing the hon. Gentleman's very interesting statement, upon which I am quite sure we will all wish to congratulate him. He has told us that the work will take some six years. I quite understand it must necessarily be a lengthy period, but I should like to know what steps will be taken during that time to ensure that decay does not continue. I understand that what he calls "the beast" is continuing its ravages at the present time, and, while the experts are sitting to consider how to kill it, the little beast is advancing. If the period during which the repair is to take place is one of six years, something will have to be done to ensure that the beast does not advance more quickly than the steps which will be taken to overcome it. At present those steps are in the rear o£ the beast, and do not get to the point at which it can be overtaken.

    It being Quarter-past Eight, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed.

    Private Business

    Northern Junction Railway Bill

    Order for Second Reading read.

    Motion made, and Question proposed,

    "That the Bill be now read a second time."

    I beg to move, to leave out the word, "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."

    This Bill has been before the House on several occasions in one form or another. Last year it proposed the construction of a line commencing at Brentford and terminating at the Great Northern Railway in my Constituency at Wood Green. A proposed deviation of that line in Finchley was rejected by the Lords Standing Committee, and the Bill itself was rejected in this House. Last year's Bill would have cut through the Hampstead garden suburb, an experiment in which all housing reformers are keenly interested and justly proud. I think it would have effectively hindered the development of that suburb; but this year's Bill commences at Brentford and terminates at Palmer's Green. It passes about 400 yards outside the boundary of the garden suburb, but there can be no doubt that it seriously affects the suburb itself, and would ruin the neighbourhood in the immediate vicinity of the suburb, which we are all very glad to see is being developed on Garden City lines. The district outside the Hampstead garden suburb is practically itself a garden suburb, and from that point of view alone I should consider that the Bill was undesirable. It would not be unfair to move its rejection on quite general grounds, for the time has now gone by when the promoters of any railway can ask the House to consent to the great transit and traffic problem being treated in a piecemeal and haphazard fashion. Any body of men, if they have the means, can promote a Bill, and if only they can succeed in breaking clown the opposition of local authorities, can press it into law—that is to say, a measure is not sufficiently considered as a rule with regard to the interests of the whole community. Even though it did not vitally affect local authorities, we ought not to pass this measure because it does vitally affect the interests of the whole community. A Royal Commission is now sitting to consider just how far the State should control the existing railways of this country, and the very fact that that Commission has been so appointed seems to me to prove that there are many people in this country, and certainly there are many in a high position, who hold that the time has come for the traffic and transit problem to be considered as a whole, and not in bits, and this is especially the case with regard to London and Greater London.

    We cannot but regret that the matter has not been seriously taken in hand before. It would have been a good thing for the State if it had been very seriously considered long ago. However, the Royal Commission is now sitting, and from that point alone, I think a railway which does not pretend to be a great railway, but only pretends to link up other railways, should be considered apart altogether from whether it is merely likely to promote the interests of comparatively few people. This matter of State control, however, is sub judice. I think the promoters of the Bill, on Second Reading, ought to prove that it is in the interests of the community as a whole, and that it will not injure the local authorities who are most affected. There are some districts which are very seriously affected, and I hope their representatives will speak up on their behalf. The local authorities have spent something like £15,000 in trying to prevent this measure in one form or another passing into law. That is a very serious waste of money, and I hope that the local authorities will not have to spend any more money after to-night. I hope it will be definitely laid down that this Bill is not required, and that no more should be expended, either by those who desire it, or by those who resist it. I have a list of some nineteen or twenty local authorities and associations who are anxious that the Bill shall not be passed into law, and that it shall not even be given a Second Reading, all of them locally interested, and of course the greatest of all is the Middlesex County Council, which has petitioned against the Bill, believing that they must protect the county interests which are likely to be seriously affected.

    In order to show that it is not a fanciful objection on the part of local authorities, one local authority alone, under expert advice, has shown that it is likely to lose, if the railway is constructed, at least £3,000 in rates more or less immediately, and that about £6,000 per year will be the potential and consequent damage per annum. That seems to me conclusive evidence that there is something wrong with a measure of this sort and that we ought not to consent to give it a Second Reading to-night. I leave it to those who really represent the local authorities—I am only very slightly affected by the Bill—to speak, and I am perfectly certain they can make out a very strong case for resisting the measure. It is a mistake to allow a railway to be dumped down which is not likely to prove of very great benefit to the localities concerned, and which certainly must disfigure and destroy the amenities of the district. I wish to oppose the Bill from the point of view of what I should call the great town planning movement which is going on all over the country. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. John Burns) passed through this House the Housing and Town Planning Act, which we think a very valuable measure, and which the local authorities are beginning to avail themselves of. It is on behalf of those who are interested in town planning, and who believe that the growth of a city or of a suburb should be ordered and planned and carefully controlled that I wish to oppose this Bill. Here is a list of well-known societies that are interested in the defeat of this measure:—The Commons and Footpaths Preservation Society, the Co-partnership Tenants Housing Council, the Garden Cities and Town Planning Association, the Institute of Municipal and County Engineers, the Kyrle Society, the London Society, the Metropolitan Public Gardens Association, the National Housing and Town Planning Council, and the Town Planning Institute. All these societies and institutes are anxious that the House shall not give a Second Reading to this measure. They oppose it because they think it is not in the interest of the community as a whole, and that it would, in a way, destroy the effect of the Act of Parliament which has been passed through this House, and which has now become operative all over the country. These societies believe, and there is much foundation for the belief, that the railway would damage some of the most beautiful residential districts in that neighbourhood, for it cannot be denied that where you have an embankment or a cutting, if you take it through a beautiful district, such as some of these residential suburbs, you might do a very great deal of harm from the point of view of destroying the amenities of the district. Apart altogether from the fact that you cut up the suburbs into inconvenient portions and separate one portion from another, you depreciate the district, you depreciate the value of property, and the rate-bearing power of the district is also depreciated. You destroy any possibility of its becoming a beautiful residential district.

    In past years the House has been altogether too careless in relation to the growth of the suburbs of London. To see this, all you have to do is to go to the great Metropolitan areas and look at what we have produced by our carelessness in not watching the growth and development of these areas. If you allow a railway to be planted down in a district like this, you are simply perpetuating for all time this haphazard and piecemeal method of development, and I am certain of this, that you never can expect that Finchley should become the district it ought to become if you allow this railway to run through that neighbourhood. One other point. If this Bill were passed by the House, if you give it a Second Readingg and if it manages to get through Committee—even if you give it a Second Reading I do not believe it would get through Committee—you are going to cripple the work for which the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade himself was responsible. He has done a very great deal to encourage local authorities to comp together and confer, and he has been trying to show that if they confer and unite their forces we might overtake some of the mistakes made in the past, or, at all events, secure proper development in the future. If you send the Bill to a Committee you are not able to alter the direction of this railway, except perhaps in some slight measure. I am not going to limit the powers of the Committee in this respect, but everyone knows quite well that if a Bill goes to a Committee there is very little you can do in the direction of making an alteration in the measure.

    I contend that it is here in this House to-night that we ought to decide this question in the interest of all the local authorities concerned, in the interest of town planning, in the interest of the ordered growth and development of our suburbs, and, I believe, in the interest of the community as a whole; for, remember, London is growing so rapidly that the time will come, if it has not already come—I think it has already come—when we shall have to consider much more seriously the question of the great arterial roads out of London. All that is interfered with by a line which cuts across the great main-roads. I claim that the House should say definitely, once for all, that needless expense, both to the promoters and the opponents of the Bill, should not again be incurred. Let the House say distinctly and decidedly that it will not give a Second Reading to this measure, and that if such a railway is to be considered, it must be considered by Government Departments and by all the local authorities concerned from every possible point of view before it is even, so to speak, introduced into this House at all. Let everybody be satisfied that it is the right thing, and then bring forward your scheme and pass it through the House, knowing all the time that you have satisfied those who are specially interested, and knowing that you are doing no harm whatever to those suburbs so vitally concerned. Knowing the facts of the case as we do now, for we have had this proposal before us year after year, and desiring as we do to promote and not to hinder the expansion on healthy lines of the residential suburbs, it is our duty, and a duty I trust we will follow out, to refuse a Second Heading to the Bill.

    I beg to second the Amendment for the rejection of the Bill, and in doing so I venture to make an appeal to Members in all quarters of the House to vote against the Second Reading to-night. I admit at the very outset that in making that appeal I am asking the House to do something which is somewhat unusual. The usual procedure, no doubt, in regard to a private Bill is to give the Bill a Second Reading, and then allow it to go to a Committee, where the arguments for and against the measure can be thrashed out with counsel before an impartial tribunal. But there are cases in which the House is certainly justified in refusing to send a Bill of this kind to a Committee. Let the House not forget that if they give this Bill a Second Reading and send it for discussion before a Committee, they will necessarily be inflicting both upon the promoters of the Bill and upon those who oppose it the onus of spending very considerable sums both of public and private money. If this project were now brought before Parliament for the first time to-night, I should most certainly say give the Bill a Second Reading, and let it go before a Committee for adequate examination; but this project, very far from being brought before the House for the first time to-night, has been brought before Parliament—or similar projects—on no less than three occasions during the past four years. On each of these occasions private individuals and local authorities affected by the proposal have been compelled to spend large sums of money, and to spend them wastefully, I think, in fighting the Bill. It does seem to me to be a monstrous thing that a project of this kind should be able to come here year after year, in spite of the fact that it has already been adequately examined and rejected by Committees, and that there has been imposed this unnecessary and wasteful expenditure upon individuals and local authorities affected by the scheme. I can speak with some knowledge on this matter, because for at least three miles of its length, this railway will run through one of the best residential districts in the north of London, the district of Finchley, which lies within the confines of my own Constituency. I can assure the House that I know that during the past few years alone, the Finchley Urban District Council has been compelled to spend a sum of no less than £3,000 in fighting this Bill in Committee.

    I received this morning a statement which no doubt was sent to other Members of the House, by the promoters of the scheme in favour of the Bill, and I was somewhat staggered by two statements which occurred in it, and which no doubt purported to be founded on the facts of the case. The first is, that the whole of the railway through Finchley will be constructed under deep cuttings, tunnel or covered way, so that the amenities of that district will not be seriously interfered with. The second is, that the railway, if constructed as shown on the deposited plans and sections would not prevent any town planning scheme that may be under consideration from being properly and conveniently carried out. I suppose that it will be at admitted that the Finchley Urban District Council, who at the same time are the road authority for the district, and also the local authority under the Housing and Town Planning Act of 1909, are as well qualified to speak on this matter, from the point of view of Finchley, as the promoters of this Bill. Let us see to what extent the two statements to which I have just referred are justified by the facts. The Finchley Urban District. Council, representing the ratepayers and inhabitants of the district, have petitioned against the Bill. In the course of the petition they say this:—
    "Your Petitioner? contend that the construction of the proposed railway through their district in the manner proposed will result in the serious depreciation of the value of one of the best portions of the district, and destroy the amenities thereof and the possibility of town planning in this part of the district in the manner contemplated by your Petitioners."
    They go on to point out, that if this rail-way is sanctioned in its present form it will, among other things, entail probably the compulsory demolition of some 363 workmen's houses, housing at the present time some 1,500 people of the working classes. Surely, that in itself is a matter worthy of consideration, especially at a time like the present, when the question of housing the working classes is demanding the serious attention of the public and of Parliament itself. Then look at the question from the financial point of view. The hon. Member for Tottenham observed that in the case of one of these local authorities—he was referring to the local authority in Finchley—the depreciation of the property resulting from the construction of this railway would involve a serious reduction of the rate-producing property of the district. That is perfectly true. It has been estimated by the chairman of that council, a very capable man, who is well qualified to give an opinion upon this particular point, that if this railway is built it will result in a reduction of something like £3,000 a year on the rates, which is equivalent in the case of Finchley to a rate of no less than three pence in the pound over all the district. The hon. Gentleman who moved the rejection of the Bill has asked those of us who are locally concerned to point out objections to the Bill from the point of view of our own localities. I will give one or two more examples of the way in which the scheme will injure this district. It will carry a deep cutting through a portion of land which is included in an extensive town-planning scheme, which has already recevied the assent of the Local Government Board. In view of that fact, which cannot be disputed, how comes it that the promoters of the Bill have circulated among Members of this House the statement that this railway, if constructed as shown on the deposited plans and sec-tons, would not prevent any town-planning scheme that may be under consideration from being properly and conveniently carried out. I would like any hon. Member who supports this Bill to explain how they have arrived at that extraordinary conclusion.

    Then, again, the railway will practically destroy an open space in Finchley, which is at the present time reserved to the public and much valued by the inhabitants of the locality. More than that, it will destroy upwards of a hundred Finchley allotments in a district in which at the present time, owing to the growth of building and so on, it is almost impossible to secure land for purposes of that kind. I hope that I have said enough to show, from the point of view of the locality alone, and from the point of view of Finchley, that there are the gravest objections to the House once more giving a Second Reading to this Bill. In view of the fact that projects almost identical with this project have on various occasions in the recent past been rejected by competent Committees, I do think that we are entitled to ask that the House should not give this Bill a Second Reading unless it can be shown that there are urgent reasons for the construction of this line. What reasons are there? There is certainly no public demand' from those places which would be traversed by the line. All the local authorities have memorialised and petitioned against the Bill. Apart from the local authorities, and speaking from the point of view of the public, if we are to come to any conclusion from the number of letters, petitions, memorials, resolutions, and other ingenious devices, by which one's constituents succeed in bringing to one's notice their opinions and views, when matters of public importance have to be decided, I have no hesitation in saying, that so far as my constituency is concerned, there is an almost unanimous desire to see this Bill thrown out on Second Reading.

    It is rather a significant fact that, so far as my memory serves, while I have received a number of letters and petitions against the Bill, I have only received a solitary letter from one individual in favour of this proposal. In the course of his letter, while he thought the Welsh Church Bill was a very bad Bill, and the Home Rule Bill a still worse Bill, and agreed with me in regard to those measures, he mildly regretted that I was prepared to pass this Railway Bill. That is the one solitary expression of public opinion which I have received, from the locality affected, in favour of the measure. No; if there is any public demand for facilities for the rapid transport of passengers, that demand is far better met by omnibuses, tramways, electric railways, and tubes than it can possibly be met by a heavy railway scheme of this kind. So far as I have been able to ascertain, there is really only one serious argument advanced by the promoters of the Bill in support of the proposal—that is, an argument "which has been advanced on military grounds. I received a letter this morning from the hon. Member for Marylebone West (Sir Samuel Scott), in which, while asking me to come down to the House to support the Bill, he pointed out to me that the line is most urgently required by the military authorities.

    The hon. Member says "Hear, hear." With all due respect to him, I venture to say that statement is fudge. I think I know what the attitude of the military authorities is towards this Bill. Indeed, it was very accurately summed up by the Chairman of the Committee which dealt with this Bill last year—the Committee which rejected it. I am quite aware that a certain number of hon. Friends of my own have been, to a certain extent, influenced by the argument adduced by the promoters of this Bill as to its being a military necessity, and therefore I will read the summing up of the Chairman of the Committee of last year, in which he put concisely the attitude of the military authorities towards this Bill. Counsel for the promoters was addressing the Committee, as I understand, and the Chairman, interrupting, said:—

    "I do not think there is any misunderstanding there"—
    This is as regards the military argument:
    "I take it from the two officers who were called on behalf of the War Office that they only put their views before the Committee to this extent, and to this extent alone, that if this railway was practicable, if it was required in the interests of the public, if it is a railway that Parliament should sanction, then it would be of great benefit to the war Office.
    Mr. Balfour Brown, K.C. (for the Promoters): I agree, Sir.
    The Chairman: They also went to this extent as the other alternative. If this railway was not practicable, if from the public point of view it, was not required, if Parliament did not think on the evidence the Bill should be passed, they did not come before Parliament to the extent of saying, but look at it from the military point of view: although it might not be sufficient in the interests of the public, still it would be a great advantage to the War office.' They would not go to that extent."
    That, I think, so far as my information goes, accurately sums up the attitude of the War Office with regard to these matters. Of course, if you go to the War Office and tell them that you are prepared to come forward with a sum of money to build a railway, the Department would be prepared to support you. They would support a railway anywhere if you are prepared to find the money and build the railway. If you suggested a railway to the moon the War Office would say it was a splendid thing, and would afford them additional facilities for the movement of troops. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not the present War Office."] Of course the War Office would like to see as many railways built either across the country or up and down the country, or in any direction as could be got, because they would afford additional facilities for the rapid move- ment of troops and so on. I do not think for one moment that the attitude of the War Office in regard to this particular project is any different from what it would be with regard to the construction of any other railway in any other part of the United Kingdom. That being so, I am really puzzled by the hon. Member's interest in this Bill, and by his saying that the War Office regards this project as a national necessity. If it were a national necessity, it would have been passed before now.

    If what the hon. Member states really represents the fact, I take the line is "most urgently required by the military authorities," it would have been constructed many years ago.

    Those were not my own words. They are taken from the evidence of Sir John Cowans, given before the Committee last year.

    Those are the words in the letter of the hon. Member, but, at any rate, whether they are his words or those of Sir John Cowans, or anybody else, I submit that it is ridiculous to interpret them in that way. If the line is a most urgent military necessity, of course we would have had it long before now. It would never have been thrown out over and over again, as it has been, by Committees competent to consider the arguments for and against a Bill of this kind. In conclusion, I would urge the House once more to vote against the Second Reading of this Bill, for these three or four main reasons: First of all, because the Bill is one that has already been rejected by Committees in the past; secondly, because it is one for which there is no public demand, so far as I can ascertain; thirdly, because if this railway is constructed it will largely ruin many of the best residential districts in the suburbs of our great capital; and lastly, and by no means least, because if this railway is constructed, as is proposed under the present scheme, it will undoubtedly place insuperable obstacles in the way of the scientific and proper development of greater London, "which everybody who is interested in these matters knows, is one of the most urgent problems.

    9.0 P.M.

    I had hoped that I might be able to follow the speeches of the promoters of this scheme, but I find that they are sitting together, and both sitting silently solemn. Therefore, I get up to address the House to say why I think this Bill should not be read. I would like to congratulate the hon. Members who are promoting the Bill that they have fixed on a name for it. For the second time it is called the Northern Junction Railway Bill, but it has had many names. It has been called the North Metropolitan Railway Bill, the Metropolitan Outer Circle Bill, the Great Western and Great Northern Junction Bill, the London Outer Circle Bill, the Greater London Railway Bill, and now it is the Northern Junction Railway Bill. The name does not matter. I am opposing this Bill as my predecessors representing the Division I represent have opposed it before. The Noble Lord (Earl Ronaldshay) said that he had only one lukewarm letter asking him whether be was not supporting the Bill. I confess I have had a resolution from the urban district council of Friern Barnet in my Division asking me to support the Bill. I was rather surprised, because I did not think they were touched by the Bill, but I find I was wrong, and that if the line were constructed it would touch part of their sewage farm. It is one thing for a line to run through a sewage farm, and quite another thing to run through your back garden. I attach due weight to that requisition of course, but I cannot say I am greatly influenced by it. I have had numbers of requisitions and there have been requisitions from meetings against this Bill, and it is because I have had those that I am here to speak against it. Another curious thing about this Bill I could never make out, and that is why the railway companies which want this Bill do not come here and ask for it themselves. The Great Northern Company wanted a junction to join with the London and South Western, and now it is the Great Northern and the Great Central which want a connection with the London and South Western why do we not have the hon. Baronet representing the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) here on behalf of the Great Northern, and the hon. Baronet the Member for St. George's (Sir A. Henderson) on behalf of the Great Central asking for this Bill? Why is it left to this holding company to do so, knowing very well, as they say, that if connected it will be taken over by the Great Northern and the Great Central and the London and South Western Railway Companies. It may be said that the opposition displayed by the electors I represent and in Hornsey and other parts of Middlesex, is a selfish and foolish opposition, and that here we have a scheme that will be of great advantage not alone nationally but locally to the inhabitants of Middlesex and outer London, and, indeed, that is in the statement in support of the Bill, and that it will, if passed, create a new outer circle railway, and that this will be formed with Moorgate Street as a centre, going by East Finchley and back to Moorgate Street. If the Great Northern and the Great Central and the London and South-Western are so very zealous to encourage suburban traffic and to do all they can for the residents of Middlesex, through Finchley, Enfield, Farmer's Green and other places, there are a great many things which might be done which they have not done. Why do they not electrify the line at Moorgate Street and from Finsbury Park up to Enfield so that a man can get into a train at Moorgate and run through to Enfield, and why do they not build stations at one or two places where they are wanted badly, such as Friern Barnet. I do not, however, come here to oppose this Bill simply because it is promoted, and because it will benefit the Great Northern Railway or the Great Central. I am not opposing it simply because the Great Northern have left undone things which they ought to have done—not at all. I am asked to oppose this Bill on other grounds, and on fair grounds. There is the question of conveying troops, and by all means let us have all facilities for bringing troops from Aldershot or Salisbury Plain to the Eastern counties in an expeditious way. I do not want, we do not want, to deny to the householder in Kent facilities for getting cheap coal from this new area. I have been told that there is a great deal of coal in Kent, and I have been asked to put money into coal mines there. We do not want to deny to the householder in Kent any facilities or to make his coal any dearer for him. I do not want, far be it from me, to prevent the Great Northern and Great Central from being able to compete on fair terms with the London and North-Western and the Midland in carrying this coal to the South of England. That, as a matter of fact, is really what this Bill is for. It is the competition of these two lines, the Great Northern and the Great Central, which want to engage on level terms, undoubtedly very reason ably, with the London and North-Western and the Midland.

    Those are all admirable objects in themselves, and I have nothing to say against them. We object to being made the corpus vile in this experiment. Town planning has been alluded to. As hon. Members know, we have a town-planning scheme on and under this Bill. What is going to happen to us? In the promoters' memorandum there are all sorts of things to happen in Finchley, such as cuttings and tunnels, but there is also to be an embankment in Southgate. Can you imagine a town - planning scheme with an embankment running through it. I put it to an hon. Member the other day who was arguing this question, "What about the embankment that is going through the middle of the town planning scheme?" He replied that nowadays they make embankments look quite pretty. You have embankments on one side of which you have the sun and a southerly aspect and on the other side you have no sun but lots of bracing air. I suppose in the same way we should have one side of this embankment planted with rock garden plants and on the other side a tropical garden. That may be all right, but it is not good enough for practical people like those who I represent. Long before housing and town-planning schemes were taken in hand, Southgate and the district round about did its best for itself. It always endeavoured to provide lots of open spaces, and was always anxious to secure that not too many houses should be built to the acre. The result is that that district is now a high-class dormitory of London, and through this high-class dormitory the promoters want to send this railway.

    If the "No" of the districts which are opposing this Bill meant taking something from the safety of the country, or denying the blessing of cheap coal or cheap food to other parts, the House might very very reasonably say that we were selfish, short-sighted and narrow, and vote against it. But that is not our attitude at all. By all means have your Northern Junction Railway, but put it further up. Let us keep a radius of at any rate fifteen or twenty miles from Charing Cross clear of such a proposal. Let us have nothing there which has not been duly considered by some central authority which can deal in an authoritative manner with these matters. I am not a railway engineer or surveyor, but it is perfectly obvious that this railway could be built quite easily if only it were taken further up. Hitchin is only thirty miles from London. Why not construct the railway from Hitchin, via Uxbridge, down to Basingstoke or By-fleet? You could then get your troops up and your coal down, and you would be in a district where the railway would probably be welcomed, and you could get land quite reasonably. This railway may be an advantage from a military point of view, or for bringing coal from the new coal fields to the South of England, where I know, to my cost, coal is very much more expensive than it is in the North. But you must keep the line right away from this district. You must keep it away from these garden cities. If the Bill did that. I would say on behalf of this district, "God bless you: go on with your scheme and prosper!" But if it is going to be the scheme which has been rejected so frequently by the electors of Middlesex and by this House, I can only say on their be half that I shall offer to the Bill a most uncompromising opposition.

    At the express desire of the hon. Member who preceded me, I rise to support the Second Reading of this Bill. If all the objections which have been urged against the Bill were true, it would be perfectly right that the Bill should not be sent to a Committee. May I allude to some of the statements which have been made? First of all, it is said not only that the Bill has been before the House on many occasions, but that it has been repeatedly rejected by the House. That statement is not quite accurate. The Bill in its present form has never been before the House at all. A Bill was before a Committee of the House last year, and that Bill was rejected; but the only part of that Bill which has been retained in the present Bill is the parts against which there was little or no opposition. I am speaking in the presence of the Chairman of the Committee which rejected that Bill. As a matter of fact, the Bill now before the House has been considerably altered, and it is an enormous improvement on that part of the Bill which was strongly objected to by the Hampstead Garden Suburb last year. It is not a fair way of putting the the case to say that this Bill has been before the House on several occasions. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is the fact."] A Bill called the Northern Junction Railway Bill has been before the House, but not the same Bill as this. If it were the same Bill as last year, it would be perfectly right that it should be thrown out on Second Reading; but inasmuch as we have learnt by experience, and have tried to avoid the difficulites in which we found ourselves last year, it is not fair to say that it is the same Bill, or indeed, the same line as that which was rejected by the Committee last year.

    Reference has also been made to the attitude of local authorities. We are told that an enormous number of local authorities through whose districts the line passes, object to the Bill. I do not know why that statement is made. I have here a list of local authorities who are at the present time opposing the Bill, but I have also a list of local authorities which are not opposing it. We have not heard a word about the local authorities through whose districts the line passes which are not opposing the Bill. I will take one or two of them. Ealing is said to be strongly opposed to the Bill and to have petitioned against it. We have never heard that, as a matter of fact, the Ealing Chamber of Commerce held a meeting and called upon the Ealing District Council to rescind their opposition to the Bill. We have never heard that the Ealing Parliament did exactly the same. It must be remembered also that we came to terms with Ealing last year, and that the line as far as Ealing is concerned is exactly the same this year as it was last year. As we came to terms with Ealing last year, I do not see any insuperable obstacle to our coming to terms with them this year. Wembley also has been mentioned. We have already practically come to an agreement with Wembley. Wembley opposed because the line went through a town planning scheme which they had in view. As a matter of fact, we have come to an absolute agreement with the trustees of the estate concerned, and therefore the opposition of Wembley will immediately disappear. I come to the opposition of Finchley. That is a serious opposition. It is a strong opposition. But it certainly is not a stronger opposition to-day than it "was six weeks ago. Finchley opposed on the ground that we were going to do harm to their town-planning scheme. Under these circumstances they very properly opposed. But it was unfortunate for Finchley that some time ago Finchley called two public meetings in favour of the town-planning scheme. The chairman of the district council, who strongly opposed this Bill, went from one meeting to another and told the second meeting that the town-planning scheme of the district council was being slaughtered by the electors of Finchley. It does not seem a very strong argument in favour of the council's scheme when the electors of Finchley are opposing it, nor does it seem a very strong argument that we are destroying that scheme—an argument that Finchley has put forward as a strong argument—when, as a matter of fact, the electors of Finchley are not in favour of the district council's town-planning scheme. What I say can be easily proved by the result of the elections that have taken place in Finchley within the last three weeks, when several of the supporters of the railway were returned and several of the supporters of the town-planning scheme were rejected.

    Hendon is down in the Schedule as opposing the Bill. A curious part of the opposition of Hendon is that they had two meetings called under the Borough Funds Act. They were asking for funds to petition against this Bill. At neither of these meetings did they get a quorum. A public meeting was called in Hendon by the opponents of the Bill. The chair was taken by one of the strong opponents of the Bill. Two councillors addressed the meeting in opposition to the Bill. I attended that meeting, and spoke in favour of the Bill, and the result was that a resolution in favour of this Bill was carried. I should like to mention that the following local authorities through whose district this line passes do not oppose. They are Acton, Hanwell, Greenfield, Willesden, Kingsbury, Friern Barnet, and Hendon. It is a curious thing that the hon. Member for Hornsey spoke so strongly against this Bill when Hornsey itself is not opposing it. It does not show that there is any very great opposition to this Bill—at any rate, in one part of the constituency of the hon. Member. There is a third objection, which, of course, is an objection which I am bound to deal with, and that is the objection of the Garden Cities Association against the Bill. That is more of an academic than a practical opposition, because, as a matter of fact, if this Bill comes before Committee, the Garden Cities Association, which looks after town-planning schemes generally, has no locus standi. It is only here in this House that it is able to exercise its influence to prevent this Bill going upstairs, because we do not, as a matter of fact, injure any town-planning scheme in esse. It has no locus stanch before the Committee, where objections can be thoroughly thrashed out.

    The Garden Cities Association opposes this Bill and this line, not because it is this particular line, but because it will oppose any line that is going round the North of London. They say that practically the whole of the North of London is mapped out for town-planning schemes. That is not an objection to this Bill in particular: it is an objection to any railway Bill which passes around North London. Therefore, it makes it very difficult to have any line passing round North London which on those grounds could not be opposed. The Garden Cities' Association opposes every Bill on behalf of town-planning schemes which are in esse at the present time. I would suggest to the House that to make this opposition relevant would be to give the Garden Cities' Association such a monopoly of land and land tenure that has not been heard of, at any rate in this country, up to the present time. Another objection has been raised to this line: that it is a steam railway. That is so at the present time, because it was impossible for it to be otherwise. We are anxious that it should be an electrical line, but it was impossible for us to join up with a trunk line when at the present time those trunk lines are steam lines. It is not possible for us to join up with an electric line. In the course of time the lines in which we are connecting in the district outside London will become electric lines. If anyone looks at the map and plans of the line, they will see that the lines on which it is planned show that we have a junction with the Metropolitan Railway at Neasden, and with the Great Northern at East Finchley, and that these junctions are becoming electric junctions. If this Bill is allowed to go upstairs, and the line is made, I believe by the time it is made it will not be a steam line at all. I have stated publicly before, and I am glad to have the opportunity of stating so again, that I believe by the time the line is made, the London and South-Western, the Metropolitan, and the Great Central will have local electrification, and that the Great Northern will have it at Finchley. By the time this line is constructed and in running order, it will be an electric and not a steam line. That, I think, meets to a great extent the objections of the Committee on the question of noise and smoke. I have said a few words about the public authorities who do not oppose this Bill, but I would like in addition to give those who support the Bill. In spite of what the Noble Lord the Member for Hornsey said these supporters are the War Office, the Road Board, and the Commissioner of Police, who has made a Report to the Home Office; the Great Northern, the Great Central, the Metropolitan and the London and South-Western Railways. Throughout the whole length of line., although it is so close to London, and although, as we have heard to-night, if goes through densely populated districts, it is a curious thing that if this line is so objectionable as has been represented that only thirteen landowners have been found to petition against the line being made.

    I should say hundreds. I should have thought from what has been said, that every landowner and every householder in Middlesex opposed.

    Throughout the whole length of the line there were only thirteen landowners who objected to it going through their land. I think that in itself shows that there cannot be this extraordinarily strong feeling against the line being made that has been represented. I see in his place the hon. Member for the Muckross Division of Yorkshire, the hon. Member for North Lambeth Division, the hon. Member for Somerset, and the hon. Member for South Leitrim. They compose the Committee that sat upon this Bill last year. We do not know the reason why the Bill was thrown out, but the promoters do know, that there was a very strong objection in certain quarters to the Bill, as put forward last year, and we have very honestly tried to meet this objection. There was an objection on account of the Hampstead Garden Suburb, and I think, as far as I know-, that helped very largely, in fact, chiefly, to kill our Bill. We have taken care to go nowhere near the Garden Suburb now, and the Garden Suburb extension have no locus standi to oppose us in Committee, and when it is known that they have no locus standi to oppose it in Committee, I think it is really hard that their influence should be used to prevent this Bill going upstairs and receiving the treatment that Railway Bills have received in this House for years and years. I do not see why this Bill should be treated differently to Railway Bill's that have been brought forward in this House for so many years. It is no great encouragement to private enterprise and to promoters that, at any rate, a Bill of this kind should not be given a chance of being thrashed out upstairs in Committee. I said I see the Members of the Committee here to-night, and I should like to ask them if they could see their way to say whether this Bill, with the improvements that have been made in it, and with the efforts that we have made to try and meet the objections to the Bill, and their knowledge of the Bill—and they know far more about it than any other Members of the House of Commons, as they must, because they have all the evidence before them—and I would like to ask them whether it is their view, without discussing the merits, that, at any rate, the Bill should be given a chance to go before a Committee, where evidence could be taken as to whether or not it should be passed. We, the promoters, are prepared to take our chance, as to whether the Bill is passed or is not passed by the Committee, but what we ask the House is, not to cut us off peremptorily from getting that chance. We ask the House to give us a run for our money. If the Bill is thrown out in Committee, as the hon. Member for Tottenham suggests, we will take our chance, but surely a Committee is the proper tribunal to try whether a Bill of this kind should or should not pass. It is impossible, I venture respectfully to suggest, in the short space of two hours and a quarter for the House to decide on which side the real truth lies, with regard to a Bill of this magnitude. I could speak for three or four hours for the Bill, just as the hon. Member for Tottenham, and the Noble Lord the Member for Hornsey could speak against it; but I should like to have the opinion of the Committee who rejected the Bill as to whether in their opinion they think after the improvements made, the Bill ought to have a chance to go upstairs and ought not to be rejected on Second Reading.

    The hon. Member who has just spoken appealed to the Committee, to which the Bill was referred last year, for their views, and I should like to say a few words as Chairman of that Committee. The Committee sat for several weeks, and heard counsel and witnesses both in favour and against the measure; and they not only did that, but they also took a survey of the entire route of the proposed line. The main question which decided the Committee in throwing out the Bill was this: On full consideration, they recognised that there were, of course, and are, great advantages in this line, and that great advantages would accrue to London if the line were made, but there was at the same time much opposition to it from various points of view. The point of view which decided the Committee was the objection of the Hampstead Garden Suburb, and that was such that the Committee felt bound to decline to pass the Bill, and accordingly rejected the Preamble. The Committee, as those acquainted with private Bill legislation know, were confined to the deviation mentioned in the plan laid before the Committee, and we had no power to so alter the line as to obviate the difficulties with regard to the Garden Suburb, but so far as I understand the situation now—I cannot say definitely, because I have not the materials before me upon which I could form an opinion, and I do not say to-day that this Bill ought to pass the House of Commons—I go so far as to say this, that as I understand great and material alterations have been made with regard to the proposed railway as compared with the scheme, which was before the Committee last year, and I for one consider that it will be best, in the interests of all parties, that this Bill should be sent to a Committee upstairs. Let it go to a new Committee who will hear evidence, and who will report to Parliament upon it. We spent many weeks in considering this matter, and in hearing evidence. It is impossible for the House of Commons, at this stage, to make up its mind as to whether or not this railway should be sanctioned by Parliament. Let it pass its Second Reading now, and let it be sent upstairs. We shall then have a Report, and if the Committee consider the Preamble is proved there will still be an opportunity for the House of Commons, on Third Reading, to discuss the question, but I feel, having had a great deal to do with this Bill last year, that the ground on which we threw the Preamble out, and a great many of the objections have been met, and I think, in all the circumstances, it would be in the interests of all the parties if this measure once again was sent to a Committee upstairs.

    I cannot help thinking that it is extremely unfortunate we should have had the speech to which we have just listened. In our legal procedure no one would ever think of calling, when a trial has concluded, for the grounds on which the jury formed their conclusion, and I think the last speaker has forgotten to consider all the pangs of the ratepayers who have to pay these Parliamentary expenses in order to support their objection. The hon. Member said, speaking from recollection, that the Bill has been materially altered. I wonder whether he looked at the map to see for himself, because if hon. Members look at the map, they will very soon see and appreciate, that while the green line on the map indicates the route of last year's Bill, and the red line the present route, there is but a very small portion of the line where any variation is made. It is true that instead of actually skirting the Garden Suburb, the line is put four hundred yards away. What is 400 yards when you have an unsightly embankment cutting off your garden suburb from the rest of the Weald? I ask hon. Members to go and see the district for themselves. Let them walk across Hampstead Heath and, looking down upon this beautiful scene, contemplate if they can the effect on the garden suburb of having a huge embankment at one place and a deep cutting 420 feet wide and 32 feet deep. There are hon. Members here from Wales, and they are familiar with the Severn tunnel from the time it leaves Chipping Sodbury to the tunnel entrance, and they must be familiar with the ghastly embankment which cuts off the country leaving it desolate on either side. It is those things we object to in Middlesex. I am in the happy position of residing on the confines of Finchley partly in Hornsey, and I represent another district materially affected by this Bill. I have been a member of the county council there, and therefore I am intimately acquainted with every corner of the county. I cannot help commiserating with the hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mallaby-Deeley) that he should find four of his colleagues in opposition to him.

    The hon. Member for the Harrow Division lives in the county of Surrey, and what effect this Bill may have on his own Division I do not know. Let us examine what he says. He says that this Bill has never been before the House before. If a railway running side by side, except at the junction, is not substantially the same thing, then I do not know what the English language is. He says this line has been altered considerably. I have looked at it on the map, and I have information from those who have to deal with these matters professionally, and they tell me that the line is substantially the same, and in Ealing it is absolutely the same. In this district they have built a class of house eminently wanted for London residents, varying from £60 to £70 a year. There are beautiful roads, and it is a beautiful district, and this is to be devastated by a road cutting right through the district, and I am not sure that it does not destroy the Haberdashers School to which a great many of the girls come from all parts of the surrounding neighbourhood. The hon. Member spoke about the local authority, and he appeared to turn somewhat triumphantly towards where I was sitting when he told the House that he had the Ealing Chamber of Commerce behind him and the Ealing Local Parliament. The hon. Member did not say that the town council this year, having awakened to the danger this Bill seeks to impose upon the district, have not only petitioned against it, but, notwithstanding all the efforts the hon. Member has made, they have refused to budge an inch, and they are determined to go on with their opposition to the bitter end. I have a great deal of sympathy with the hon. Member, because I know that he has gone about with his consulting engineer just like "Don Quixote" and "Sancho Panza," and he has tried to convert the district council to his way of thinking. I know as an old electioneerer how these things have been done. Promises have been made, and it was the promise of the hon. Member's engineer that caused the Ealing Chamber of Commerce—

    Well, it was his engineer, and he sent "Sancho Panza" to Ealing. At any rate, he went and made a number of representations in which I am sure they believed, but I know that on one occasion, in addressing a Finchley audience, the hon. Member for Harrow had to tell them it was not what his engineer promised them but what he promised them, and the one was very considerably less than the other. That is the way those two bodies have been dealt with. Now we come to Wembley. Does the hon. Member for Harrow say that Wembley is likely to object in the same way as these other districts, which are developing rapidly, and which have been developing rapidly for some years past? Then he comes to Finchley and he deals with the town-planning question. He tells us that the town-planning scheme of Finchley is objected to, but surely he does not wish to mislead the House, and he rides off on the fact that there has been more than one scheme. The first scheme has already received the sanction of the Local Government Board and has reached the harbour, and there is no chance of wrecking it. There are two additional schemes, and therefore this is a grand opportunity to carry out town-planning legislation, and if hon. Members had only gone to see the extension of the present suburb by the leasing of a large tract of land from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, they would see that picturesque houses are going to be put up which bids fair to make that part of Middlesex as model a village as Port Sunlight or Bourneville. The whole of that scheme will be wrecked if we are to have these cuttings, over which nothing can be built. Let us see how much of this is true with regard to Finchley. A note has been passed to me since the speech which was made by the hon. Member for Harrow by a person I know very well, who says that at the recent election at Finchley two members were returned in favour of town planning. The council now consists of fifteen members in favour of town planning and three against it, and yet the hon. Member represents the electors of Finchley as being against town planning.

    I said nothing of the kind. I said they were not against town planning, but against the particular scheme which the district council has put forward.

    I think the impression left upon the mind of the House was that the question of town planning was in jeopardy in Finchley, but there are fifteen members on the district council now in favour of it and three against. The electors, moreover, have returned members to that council, so that the whole of the council is now as one man opposed to this Bill. There is no question about that. I pass on to Hendon. The hon. Member said that his evidence with regard to Hendon was that they had failed to get a quorum on two occasions when they summoned meetings. It is perfectly new to me, and those who are acquainted with local government, that any district council is bound to call a meeting under the Borough Funds Act except when promoting a Bill, and I cannot imagine that the Hendon Council are doing the work of supererogation in summoning meetings they are not bound to summon. I know that a meeting at West Hendon, a very exciting meeting, which had been carefully arranged, ended in a majority of two only in favour of this Bill. Again, the hon. Member speaks of Acton. This railway, if it touches Acton at all, only does so for a few yards, and Acton, which has had to put up its rates 7d. in the £ to make up for its present financial difficulties, is not likely to embark in a Parliamentary opposition when the railway only touches Acton for a few yards. I cannot answer for Hanwell, except that I know it is where the asylum is situated. Then there is Greenwood. It is remotely affected, and besides, it is an open district, with fields and pastures.

    He also speaks of Willesden. I have looked at the map to see whether Willesden can possibly be affected. I cannot come to the conclusion that any portion of Willesden is affected by the line. If it is, it is only that open portion bisected and bisected again with railways passing in all directions. Lastly, he speaks of Hornsey. I do not know where it comes in Hornsey. It must be a few yards somewhere in the neighbourhood of Muswell Hill. They are not so foolish as to spend the ratepayers' money in respect of a scheme which they know their neighbours who are affected are fighting, and who have fought it before successfully. He speaks further of the War Office. I should like to tell the story about the War Office, because there is a good deal behind it. Perhaps before I do so I ought to tell the House the way in which the case was summed up on the last occasion on behalf of the promoters. Here is the speech of the leading counsel for the promoters at the conclusion of the whole proceedings before the Select Committee. I want the House to bear this in mind, having regard to the appeal made by the hon. Member for Harrow, that this Bill should go upstairs again, this different Bill, for consideration. Mr. Balfour Browne said:—
    "I do not think I should take up much more of your time. It is a matter I think of great importance. This is the last chance. You will never find promoters again who are willing to come for a line if this is rejected. It was passed by the Commons as you will remember in 1911, and spoiled because a certain portion was taken off. You have the evideace of the gentleman called from the War Office to say that after all they hare got their support for the line. I want the line, the whole line, and nothing but the line, and I ask that the Preamble be proved."
    I have with regard to the War Office to call attention to the statement made by the hon. Member for Harrow at a meeting he attended at Hendon, and also at another meeting he attended at Finchley. He said:—
    "Let me tell you the reasons I took it up, and why I am standing before you to-night. When I was first asked last year to stand sponsor to this Bill, the first thing I did before giving any answer to the Great Northern, or the Great Central, or Mr. Foxlee, was to consult the War Office authorities, and having received from them an assurance, which I am at liberty to give to you, that in their opinion this line was a necessity to the War Office and to the military authorities who would warmly support it on national grounds only, having nothing to do with the financial part of the Bill—when I received their assurance that they looked upon it as a line that ought to be made and they were prepared to support it, then I felt that at any rate I had one inducement to concern myself with this Bill."
    Upon that, the hon. Member for Tottenham put a question to the Secretary of State for War on the 3rd of March, asking him in specific terms this question:—
    "Whether he or the Army Council, or any responsible Departmental officer of the War Office, has stated that the projected railway which is the subject of the Northern Junction Railway Bill now awaiting Second Reading, or the similar Bill rejected last year by the Select Committee, was a necessity to the War Office and to the military authorities who would warmly support it on national grounds only; and whether any assurance in such terms or to such effect has been given by the War Office or any person speaking officially on its behalf to the hon. Member for Harrow.
    Colonel Seely: The view of the War Office is that all extensions of railways giving further facilities for the movement of troops in time of war are desirable, and that this is particularly the case with regard to railway extensions effecting better communication between the North and the South of London."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd March, 1911, cols. 218–9, Vol. LIX.]
    As a matter of fact, it is North-East and South-West—rather more East and West than North and South. That answer being eminently unsatisfactory, I myself put down a question. I asked the Secretary of State for War:—
    "Whether the Army Council, or any official on its behalf, has to his knowledge and with his sanction stated that the construction of the Northern Junction Railway, the subject of the Bill now awaiting Second Reading, was a national necessity, and that the War Office would support it on that ground; and has he ever made such a statement or any statement of a similar character."
    The Secretary of State for War referred me to the answer that he had given to the hon. Member for Tottenham, whereupon my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield (Mr. Newman) said:—
    "Cannot the right hon. Gentleman give a direct yes or no answer?"
    The answer was:—
    "I do not think I can add anything to the answer I then gave. It seems to me to have been a very definite answer."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th March, 1914, col. 1030, Vol. LIX.]
    Upon that I wrote direct to the Secretary of State for War, and I got this reply:—
    "In the opinion of the War Office any railway which facilitates transport on mobilisation is of value to the State from the military point of view."
    I wonder whether the Secretary of State for War, or his advisers, ever seriously thought that upon mobilisation they were going to get troops from the Depot at Aldershot along the South-Western to-that remote portion of it situated in Brentford, and then take them over innumerable S-shaped curves till you get to Palmer's Green so as to transfer them on the Great Northern. Obviously, if they want access to the East Coast the proper thing would be either to use the facilities they already have in the Great Eastern or else to go straight across country from. Hitchin to Basingstoke. Basingstoke canal is derelict, and here was an excellent opportunity of buying it up. So much for the War Office. I have the actual answers given by the officers. They were very cautious. It appears to me that they are always cautious in dealing with these matters. An officer, a captain, who was" called, was asked:—
    "Do you consider the building of this railway within a reasonable time to be a matter of national importance?"
    and he replied:—
    "That is for the Quartermaster-General to say."
    Further, he was asked:—
    "Do you consider the proposed new route more direct? "
    He answered:—
    "The actual directness is not a very material matter from the military point of view; whether it is one or two miles shorter or longer is quite immaterial from the point of view of the movement of troops."
    Then I come to the evidence of Major Sir John Cowans, Quartermaster-General, who was asked this question:—
    "I take it from the point of view of the Army Council if this proposed new railway is required as a railway they would support it?"
    and he answered, "Yes." Then he was asked:—
    "You do not mean to say it should be made in any shape or form for the Army Council alone?"
    To that he replied in the negative, and in re-examination he was asked:—
    "I put it to you, it might, in a moment of national emergency, be well that there should be an alternative line for carrying the troops? "
    and he answered:—
    "That is what I was thinking of really. The more railway" we have, the better."
    Then he was further asked—and this was in the examination-in-chief, in which, as a rule, counsel in Parliamentary Committees put the words into the witness's mouth—
    "Really, to sum it up, do you say that the building of this railway in its entirety is a matter of national importance?
    His reply was:—
    "I say so, certainly."
    Then the Chairman observed:—
    "I thought you would not go to that extent V"
    The reply to that was:—
    "In times of emergency it is an alternative.
    You say a railway there in time of emergency would be of great service?
    Yes, of the greatest service.
    If made in a reasonable time in its entirety? "
    10.0 P.M.

    I can well understand that question in view of past history, for the railway has been abandoned time after time. The line was promoted as far back as 1866. It was also promoted in 1882, 1885, and 1888, and it has been abandoned time after time because the promoters could not find the money to make the line. In those days, it should be remembered, the line would have gone through an open area, and not have come into contact with town-planning schemes. I now come to a passage in the examination of the hon. Member for Harrow, who said he was assured by the War Office that the line was a very great necessity, and that they would give it all the support possible. They asked him not to agree to accept any emasculation of the Bill by arranging with the other companies to withdraw their opposition, or anything of that kind. They wanted the whole line, and the hon. Member added that there was an honourable understanding between the War Office and himself that if he obtained the Bill he should not sell it, but that the line should be constructed. He practically gave that undertaking. The hon. Member for Harrow has also said that the scheme has the support of the Road Board. The Middlesex County Council has not received any communication from the Road Board, but a communication has come to the Middlesex County Council, either directly through the hon. Member for Harrow or the solicitors, and that letter suggested that it would be a great economy if the proposed North-Western Road could run along parallel with the line of railway. But the House will not be surprised to learn that a railway which has to cut into tunnels 32 feet deep at some parts, and has high embankments at other parts, is not likely to lend itself to the construction of a road parallel with it with access to-neighbouring lands. So far from being economical, I venture to say that the county could construct the road at 50 per cent. less cost if they had their own route. I challenge the hon. Member for Harrow to produce any evidence in writing from the Road Board actually stating that they recommend this railway. Reference has been made to the landowners. I do not see how it can be suggested that they do not object, seeing that there has been a petition from residents in Ealing alone, signed by owners of land who object to this railway. I know Mr. Rothschild objected to it last year, and was represented before the Committee by counsel. His was a very reasonable objection, considering the way in which the railway proposed to cut his property off.

    The main objection to this Bill having a Second Reading is that it has already been vexatiously promoted, and that the ratepayers of this county have been thereby put to enormous expense. We have had figures from Hornsey showing that its construction would mean a permanent reduction of rating income to the extent of a 3d. rate. In the borough of Ealing there will be 51 acres taken, and the property actually scheduled represents an approximate rateable value of £4,000. It has been estimated by an independent rating surveyor that the present loss in rates will be £1,366 a year, and that the potential loss of rateable value of houses which could be put on the land proposed to be taken and the depreciation of property indirectly affected is estimated at £8,000, making a total loss per annum of £4,099, while the best they can hope for, if the railway pays, is to get a rateable value of something like £500, plus any stations that may be erected. It has been suggested that the line is going to afford great facilities for passenger traffic. I believe, if it is ever constructed, I should be the only passenger, as I should be going back from my Constituency late at night; and should probably travel in the guard's van to keep that official company during his solitary journey. Remember the experiment has already been tried, because when the Midland Company constructed their line from Acton they were put under terms to take passengers. There were no passengers to take, and the result of it was that they gave it up altogether and ran it as a goods line alone.

    There was communication until a short time ago between Willesden Junction and Ealing Broadway Station by means of motor coaches run at long intervals, but the dearth of passengers has been such that they have taken them off. I gave evidence myself on the Bill of 1906, which went much further out than this will go, and I was faced with it last year when I gave evidence in opposition to this Bill. As a matter of fact I was perfectly right in my conclusion. The Midddlesex County Council between 1906 and 1913 constructed at enormous expense an electric tramway from east to west. That line has cost more to construct by reason of the bridging—we had to reconstruct Willesden Junction bridge, and the bridges over the Midland, Great Western, and Metropolitan District—and the result is that it is the line which pays us least and on which the passengers are fewest. As a matter of fact, there is no passenger traffic for this line. Ealing is very well served with the tubes, the District railway, and innumerable omnibuses, and other means of communication, including the tramways from Shepherd's Bush. There is no passenger traffic here. All that is wanted is heavy mineral trade, puffing at all times of the night, making the houses and the whole district desolate and spoiling the property. The House will recollect that railways have been promoted from time to time since 1866, taking a much larger circle, when they could have made their line without interfering with the development of property. They have abandoned railway after railway. Now, after an interval of four years, they ask this House to send the Bill to a Committee, in order that more money may be spent in opposing it. It is a Bill which ought never to be allowed to be put on the Statute Book, because it will work untold harm to those districts who are struggling with the problem of the proper housing of the working classes and make it most difficult for them. It is upon these grounds of interference with local authorities and the amenities of the suburbs of London, that I ask the House not to read this Bill a second time, but to free these people from the burden they have had so often to shoulder in the Committee.

    I should first of all like to associate myself with everything that the hon. Member for the Buck-rose Division (Sir Luke White) has said to-night. I am only here because I was on the Committee, where we tried to be fair. I am very anxious to try to be fair to the Bill to-night. I rise perhaps for the rather selfish reason of trying to say that, having once voted against a Bill, it is not inconsistent, or not illogical, to support it later on. I support this Bill at the present moment in so far as I think it ought to be sent upstairs. In the eloquent speech to which we have just listened from the hon. Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield) he advised hon. Members to go down and look at the land. We did go down and look at the land. I think that before voting for this Bill again I should like to go down. If I were on the Committee, which I certainly do not intend to be, it would be impossible to cast a vote for or against the Bill without seeing the actual course the line takes. In Committee, a number of things described as hardships were brought to our attention. I think we were agreed that adequate compensation would have remedied most of those hardships. The real crux of the situation was the Garden City. I need not tell the House what a Garden City is. The House knows that the object of a garden city is to provide picturesque, I will not say aesthetic, but nice comfortable homes for poor people with a certain amount of space and a certain amount of scenery. Obviously, if you drive a railway through a Garden City, or put a tunnel under it, you will destroy that object. You cannot have peace over a tunnel. However much you may like railways and deck them with roses they do not add to the beauty of the scenery. We had to weigh in the scales two things, I will not say the hypothetical advantages of this railway, but the future advantages of the railway, with the present and actual disadvantages that it imposes upon the Garden City. On that point I myself had very little hesitation in the way in which I should vote. Reference has been made to the military merits of this Bill, and I am bound to say that is one of the reasons that make me support it. It has merits from the point of view of an emergency mobilisation of the Army. It is on the these grounds that I am going to vote for it being sent upstairs.

    I listened to one of the promoters of the Bill to-night, and I was struck with the complete absence of any argument in support of the Bill. The whole of his speech seemed to be that private Bills ought to be sent, as a matter of course, to a Committee upstairs; in other words, that the onus of proving that the Bill should not pass Second Beading is upon those who object to it rather than on those who support it. I live in one of these districts, namely, Southgate. Those who inhabit that district have as much claim to the consideration of this House as any garden city. Two Members of the Committee which considered a similar Bill last Session said that they threw the Bill out because the Hampstead Garden Suburb objected to it. I claim that the district of Southgate, in fact all the districts on the outside of London, have a claim to become garden cities if they can. I ask the House to reject the Second Reading of this Bill not because one district "which is influential comes forward and objects to it, but because this is a railway which is going round the immediate outskirts of London, which are growing areas where town plans are needed and where at the present time there is a concerted effort on the part of those districts to propose town plans and plans for great roads going in and out of London. The House would be well advised, on broad principles, in saying that this Bill should not go to a Committee, and that those authorities who are now considering town planning should not be put to the expense of opposing it in Committee. It is for that main broad reason that I ask the House to reject the Second Reading.

    I believe prima facie a Railway Bill such as this ought to have a Second Reading. You do not get private promoters supporting a Bill of this kind unless there is a reasonable chance of it being remunerative. If it is going to be remunerative you may be pretty certain that it is going to be useful, and we have heard from the hon. Gentleman (Sir Luke White), who, I suppose, knows as much about the matter as anyone in the House, that this particular Bill has a great many advantages when you are looking at it from the public point of view. Secondly, prima facie, a Bill of this kind ought to go to a Select Committee. You have only to listen to the arguments which have been put for and against to see that it is absolutely impossible in the short time at the disposal of this House to thoroughly appreciate those arguments. For instance, my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Nield) has asked us to go to Hampstead to view the land. I should be only too delighted if I had the benefit of going in his company and under his auspices, but unfortunately I have to give my decision at eleven o'clock to-night, and I do not suppose it would be any use going there at this time of day. This Bill has been before a Select Committee already and has been considered upon its merits and been rejected. Unless the promoters can show that there is some material difference between the Bill as it is now-presented and as it was considered by the Committee, and rejected, we ought not to put the parties who are interested in this matter to the expense of fighting it again in the Committee. It seems to me that that is the real crux of the whole position. The hon. Gentleman (Sir Luke White) and my hon. Friend behind me have solved the difficulty for me, because they have both said upon their experience of this matter, as Members of the Committee, that they do not think it is the same. They think there are material differences, not only in the Bill, but also in the conditions, and therefore it ought to have a Second Beading, because it is impossible for us in the short time at our disposal to thoroughly go into all the pros and cons. I do not think it would be unreasonable to send the Bill to a Select Committee in the ordinary way.

    I should like to say a word as a Member of the Committee, and the only one who voted for the Bill on the last occasion. I was very pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman (Sir Luke White) express the view that it should have a chance again of being sent to a Committee. We went over the ground last year and laboured the points, and taking into consideration the great military advantage of connecting two great railways, so as to enable troops on mobilisation to move more speedily in the event of war, certainly, to my mind, it is a Bill which should have our support. Anyhow, I endorse the opinion that the Bill should receive a Second Reading, so that it may have a chance of going up to a Committee.

    We have heard once more the argument that this Bill ought to go upstairs to a Committee. That argument is used in regard to every private Bill which is promoted, and I am not prepared to say that it is a bad argument, although I believe it was invented by a member of the Parliamentary Bar. I think it is an argument which may have much too wide an application. I think, when a Bill in these terms is promoted year after year, it places a burden upon the opponents, and particularly upon municipalities and local authorities, in opposing the Bill, and therefore we ought to be more careful than we are in saving them from that burden. The hon. Member for Harrow (Mr. Mallaby-Deeley) told us very frankly that he wished to have a run for his money, and I should be sorry that so sportsmanlike a Member should be denied that opportunity. But we ought to consider more carefully the position of the fifteen opponents, all of whom will have to employ Parliamentary agents, solicitors, members of the Parliamentary Bar, and others, who will run up large sums in opposing the Bill which has already been rejected more than once, and which, I think, if it goes upstairs, will not be sanctioned on this occasion. For that reason, I shall vote heartily against the Second Reading.

    The remarks of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Radford) have, I think, been entirely answered by hon. Members who sat on the Committee last year. These hon. Members have pointed out to the House that this is not by any means the same Bill as that which came before them last year. An hon. Member made rather a new proposition. So far as I could ascertain, he made a suggestion as to what should be the line adopted by this House in regard to railway enterprises in a radius of fifteen or twenty miles around London. If the principle indicated is that which this House is going to adopt with regard to railway Bills and all other traffic Bills in reference to the district around London I am afraid that it will do a great deal of harm. The hon. Member for Ealing spoke about certain promises which were made by my hon. Friend, who is, with myself, a promoter of this Bill. I can assure him that any promises made will be most strictly adhered to. Every argument of my hon. Friend against the Bill seemed to be an argument in favour of the Second Reading. He brought forward what were purely matters of detail that were irrelevant to the Second Reading. The only matter which he brought forward which might be relevant was the question of the War Office. Personally, I take a very great interest in the War Office and military matters, and, frankly, one of the reasons why I have collaborated with my hon. Friend in promoting this Bill is because I believe most firmly that this railway is of vital importance in mobilising troops in times of emergency. The Noble Lord the Member for Hornsey was somewhat hard on me when he described the letter which I addressed to him as fudge. I quoted entirely from the evidence given by the Quartermaster-General of the Army, but I desire to read now from the sworn evidence given before the Committee by two officers of the War Office. The first officer who gave evidence was the staff captain of railway transport:—

    "I want to ask you as representing the War Office if they (the railways) suffice in case of emergency or in time of war?—Personally, you would have to do without them.
    You would have to do without them of course, but in case of emergency or in time of war would the present facilities in your view be inadequate?—yes."
    And then he goes on to explain the reasons why the present facilities are inadequate, and why trains are broken up at Clapham Junction, to get round to the Great Northern system. Perhaps even more important evidence is that of the Quartermaster-General. I believe that this is the first occasion upon which the Quartermaster-General of the War Office has given evidence before a Committee on a railway Bill. That rather emphasises the importance which the War Office and the Secretary of State for War attach to this particular Bill. My hon. Friend read out, as I asked him to do, the most important part of Sir John Cowans' evidence:—
    "This proposed new railway is of great value?—Yes, most distinctly.
    Do you say that the building of this railway in its entirety is a matter of national importance?—Yes, certainly."
    That is a most important point, that the building of the railway in its entirety must be insisted upon by the War Office as being essential for their purpose. My hon. Friend asked a very pertinent question, as a Member of the Committee, and the answer was:—
    "We have to consider besides the movement of troops the food supply of London and various other things."
    The food supply of London in that case, as hon. Members, I am certain, are perfectly aware, would be a very difficult matter; and I do sincerely trust that the House will see its way to give this Bill a Second Reading, and allow it to go to a Committee upstairs. If any of those points which have to be brought forward by the various opponents of the Bill are put before the Committee, and are proved, then the Committee would throw out the Bill. I think that, on every ground, we have a right to ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading, and let it go to a Committee upstairs.

    I live in Finchley, and I know the absolute opposition that there is on the part of the inhabitants of that district to this Bill. The hon. Gentleman has told us that along the line some thirteen landowners had been approached, and I presume he referred to the owners of large areas, because the householders of Finchley have banded together to fight against this Bill, and a large number of them are landowners in the sense that they own the sites on which their houses stand. There is opposition on the part of some who own large areas of land, but there is some opposition which to a certain extent has been abated. Last year, at a great meeting held at Finchley to oppose this Bill, a very influential resident took the chair. I believe his opposition has been abated considerably. I am given to understand that if this Bill passes his house will probably be purchased and eventually presented to Finchley. That may of course be merely a coincidence, but to what extent that kind of influence has abated opposition I do not know. We have it on the authority of two local authorities that the construction of this line will permanently reduce the rateable value of the area compared with the rateable value that it may be expected to achieve. This new line, though it would not run through an existing garden suburb, would run through an area which has been scheduled as one of the most desirable parts possible for the development of town planning on the outskirts of London, a thing that we have been promoting for years, a thing we have been inducing local authorities to take up, and a thing which local authorities are likely to work out, acting in cooperation. In view of the fact that we want to see outside London developed along lines different from those lines which have been followed on the inside, and in view of the fact that if you send the Bill upstairs it means an enormous increase in the expenses of those opposing it, the measure is strongly opposed by the inhabitants. I am told that the cost of opposing the Bill to one society alone was £2,000, an amount which otherwise would have gone to a garden suburb if they had not had to brief a counsel to act for them in the Committee. In view of those facts, it is unfair to the local authorities and to the residents in the districts affected that they should again be put to the expense of fighting this Bill. The line is not desired by anybody in the district; it is not asked for by anybody except the promoters. The War Office have not asked for it; they have only said that it would give them additional facilities, and, of course, they are always ready for increased facilities.

    I heard the evidence read by the hon. Member, and also by the hon. Member for Ealing (Mr. Meld). The War Office have not asked for this measure. It it only asked for by the promoters in order to make a profit out of it. They are to get the profit and the residents are to get the nuisance. I think the bargain is not fair.

    It seems to me a very specious argument indeed to say that we should give this Bill a Second Reading and send it to Committee upstairs to judge of the merits of it. I rise to give briefly the reasons why, in my opinion, the House should deal with this question itself. I ask what are the reasons why we are asked to give a Second, Reading to this Bill? Practically they are that it will give a useful military communication between the north of London and the south-west, and the country north of London and the country south-west, and that it will also give useful communication for bringing coal and other heavy goods along that same line of communication. No doubt those are very important considerations, but I think the House is quite competent to say that those two purposes can be just as well obtained by a railway going north to south-west, but considerably further out. You would thereby protect what I may call the living belt of London, the belt around the edge of London, in which Londoners have to live, and to live healthy and happy lives and bring up healthy and happy families. I think that this House is quite competent and that it is its duty to say for itself, and not through a small Committee upstairs, whether it holds with the great principle, important though the military and commercial considerations are, of taking the line further out so as to protect the living belt of this great city. If it had been a question of some small details of deviation, and so on, by all means it should be sent to a Committee; but it is not. It is a question of a very great principle, and nobody in the world, and no power in the world, is so competent to decide that as the House itself.

    Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

    The House divided: Ayes, 104; Noes 181.

    Division No. 83.]

    AYES.

    [10.40 p.m.

    Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour)Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)Paget, Almeric Hugh
    Agg-Gardner, James TynteHaddock, George BahrPearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
    Ainsworth, John StirlingHall, Frederick (Dulwich)Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
    Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham)Pollock, Ernest Murray
    Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
    Bird, AlfredHayden, John PatrickRees, Sir J. D.
    Blair, ReginaldHenderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Booth, Frederick HandelHerbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)Roche, Augustine (Louth)
    Brady, Patrick JosephHerbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)Rolleston, Sir John
    Bryce, J. AnnanHope, Harry (Bute)Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)
    Burn, Colonel C. R.Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford)Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
    Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N)Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk.Sanders, Robert Arthur
    Cautley, H. S.Joyce, MichaelSanderson, Lancelot
    Clay, Captain H. H. SpenderKerry, Earl ofSheehy, David
    Clough, WilliamKilbride, DenisShorn, Edward
    Condon, Thomas JosephLardner, James C. R.Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S)
    Crooks, WiliamLee, Arthur H.Spear, Sir John Ward
    Crumley, PatrickLundon, ThomasStanier, Beville
    Cullinan, JohnLyell, Charles HenryStanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
    Dewar, Sir J. A.Lynch, A. A.Stewart, Gershom
    Duffy, Wiliam J.Maclean, DonaldTalbot, Lord E.
    Duke, Henry EdwardMacVeagh, JeremiahVerney, Sir Harry
    Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
    Du Pre, W. BaringMarkham, Sir Arthur BasilWatson, Hon. W.
    Esmonds, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)Weston, Colonel J. W.
    Esslemont, George BirnieMeehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix)White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
    Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.Molly, MichaelWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Falconer, JamesMuldoon, JohnWilliams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
    Fell, ArthurMurphy, Martin J.Winterton, Earl
    French, PeterNeedham, Christopher ThomasWood, John (Stalybridge)
    Fiennes, Hon. Eustace EdwardNicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)Yale, Colonel Charles Edward
    Fitzgibbon, JohnO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Younger, Sir George
    Flavin, Michael JosephO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
    Gastrell, Major W. HoughtonO'Donnell, ThomasTELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
    Geider, Sir W. A.O'Malley, WilliamMr. Mallaby-Deeley and Sir S. Scott.
    Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    NOES.

    Adamson, WilliamDickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H.Hunt, Rowland
    Addison, Dr. ChristopherDillon, JohnIngleby, Holcombe
    Agnew, Sir George WilliamDonelan, Captain A.John, Edward Thomas
    Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)Doris, WilliamJohnson, W.
    Arnold, SydneyDuncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)
    Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Duncannon, ViscountJones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)
    Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)Elverston, Sir HaroldJones, William (Carnarvonshire)
    Barnes, George N.Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)
    Barnston, HarryEssex, Sir Richard WalterKelly, Edward
    Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)Farrell, James PatrickKing, Joseph
    Beauchamp, Sir EdwardFenwick, Rt. Hon. CharlesLambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)
    Bentham, G. J.Field, WiliamLaw, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)
    Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish.Furness, Sir Stephen WilsonLawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)
    Boland, John PlusGill, A. H.Leach, Charles
    Bowerman, Charles W.Gladstone, W. G. C.Levy, Sir Maurice
    Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)Glanville, H. J.Lewisham, Viscount
    Bridgeman, William CliveGlazebrook, Captain Philip K.Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)
    Brocklehurst, W. B.Goldstone, FrankLockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.
    Brunner, John F. L.Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasGuinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)
    Byles, Sir William PollardGulland, John WilliamMackinder, H. J.
    Campion, W. R.Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)Macpherson, James Ian
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Hackett, JohnM'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)
    Cave, GeorgeHall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)Manfield, Harry
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)Marks, Sir George Croydon
    Chancellor, Henry GeorgeHancock, John GeorgeMoney, L. G. Chiozza
    Chapple, Dr. William AllenHarcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)Mooney, John J.
    Clynes, John R.Hardie, J. KeirMorgan, George Hay
    Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton)Morrell, Philip
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert
    Cotton, William FrancisHarvey, W., E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)Newman, John R. P.
    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Newton, Harry Kottingham
    Craik, Sir HenryHigham, John SharpNicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
    Dalrymple, ViscountHinds, JohnNield, Herbert
    Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)Hodge, JohnNolan, Joseph
    Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)Hogge, James MylesO'Doherty, Philip
    Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Holmes, Daniel TurnerO'Dowd, John
    Dawes, James ArthurHope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
    Delany, WilliamHudson, WalterO'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
    Denman, Hon. Richard DouglasHughes, Spencer LeighO'Shee, James John

    Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)Robinson, SidneyTrevelyan, Charles Philips
    Parker, James (Halifax)Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
    Parry, Thomas H.Roe, Sir ThomasWardle, George J.
    Perkins, Walter F.Rothschild, Lionel deWheler, Granville C. H.
    Pointer, JosephRowlands, JamesWhite, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
    Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.Rowntree, ArnoldWhitehouse, John Howard
    Pratt, J. W.Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.Whyte, Alexander F.
    Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)Wiles, Thomas
    Radford, G. H.Samuel, Sir Stuart M. (Whitechapel)Wilkie, Alexander
    Raffan, Peter WilsonScott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.)
    Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)Williams, John (Glamorgan)
    Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)Snowden, PhilipWills, Sir Gilbert
    Reddy, MichaelSpicer, Rt. Hon. Sir AlbertWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)Wing, Thomas Edward
    Rendall, AthelstanThomas, J. H.Yeo, Alfred William
    Richardson, Albion (Peckham)Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)Young, William (Perthshire, East)
    Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)Thorne, William (West Ham)Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Tobin, Alfred Aspinall
    Roberts, George H. (Norwich)Touche, George AlexanderTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
    Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)Toulmin, Sir GeorgeMr. Alden and Mr. Newman.

    Words added.

    Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

    Second Reading put off for six months.

    Supply

    Civil Services And Revenue Departments Estimates, 1914–15

    Postponed Proceeding resumed on Question, "That a sum, not exceeding £34,700, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, for Houses of Parliament Buildings." [NOTE.—£32,000 has been voted on account.]

    Question again proposed. Debate resumed.

    When the Debate was interrupted I was asking the hon. Gentleman who represents the First Commissioner of Works one or two questions, not by way of hostile criticism, but rather for the purpose of elucidating one or two further facts which I believe will be of interest to the House and to the country. I hope the hon. Gentleman can see his way to give an assurance to the Committee that during the period of the necessary work, and before it can be commenced, steps will be taken to retard the process of deterioration which is, I understand, at present going on. Another point which I want to ask him about is this: If I follow the statement he has made we cannot expect the whole of this work to be completed in a period of less than six years. I do not understand the hon. Gentleman suggests that of necessity six years will be required for the work, but the six years is put as the extreme limit to which it can go. During the whole of that period it will be necessary to take up a certain amount of the paving of Westminster Hall in order that the structure necessary for the purpose of getting at the roof may be placed in situ. Will it be possible to make some arrangement so that the use of Westminster Hall can still be reserved, because it is not only a show place: it is from time to time used, and I do not like to contemplate the possibility of the abandonment of its use during the whole of those six years. We have had to do without it entirely for the last year for a very good reason. But I hope the hon. Gentleman will be able to give the assurance that there will be some use of Westminster Hall during this long period, when it may be necessary from time to time to give receptions to foreign ministers and visitors, and have the like functions in which the place has played so very important a part.

    Another question which I want to ask is this: Will the construction of this new steel roof be carried out from within or from without? I am not quite sure I followed the proposals, but I think a word or two on this point from the hon. Gentleman representing the Office of Works may be of interest by way of additions to the clear statement he has made. If this work is to be carried out from within it seems it will be impossible to make any use of the hall during the whole of that time, and under these circumstances I venture to suggest to him it might be possible to carry out the reconstruction from without, and make it possible to reserve the privileges which the public and Members of the House enjoy in the use, or the partial use, of the hall during the process of reconstruction. I have put forward all these points, not by way of criticism at all, but simply by way of asking the hon. Member to supplement his clear statement, and in the hope that he will be able to give some sort of assurance which I know would be appreciated by the House and by the country on these matters.

    I am rather sorry I did not hear my hon. Friend's speech delivered earlier in the evening, but I think I already heard the greater part of it when I accompanied him up the ladders to the height of the roof. There is one point I wish to urge upon him strongly, and through him, on those responsible for sanctioning the Grant of money in this Vote. It is certainly a very large amount of money that is proposed to be spent on perpetuating and renovating this architectural monument. The roof cannot be renewed; the present roof cannot be made serviceable. The steel framework will be the real roof, and the object of this expenditure will be to preserve this decaying timber fabric for the future. I must say I think in this case the expenditure even of so much as £70,000 is expenditure that is justifiable. This roof is one of the most remarkable architectural monuments in this country, and one of the supreme triumphs of architectural skill in this country, and I think it is desirable that it should be preserved if it was only to be an object lesson to Government Departments in the future, and to those who have responsibility for the designing of Government offices which are now being put up, or may be put up in the future. What is the supreme merit of this roof? It is, I think, that it adheres throughout in every timber of it to the line of structural necessity. Those who built the roof were not concerned in pretending that they were doing something else. The architects who designed the new War Office were rather ashamed of the fact that they were building an office to accommodate a thousand or so clerks, and they pretended that they were building a Greek temple. The striking failure of the architecture of modern Government buildings is the fact that the architects have all been chiefly concerned in disguising the real structural purpose of the building, and copying some ancient style, pretending they were erecting a building of a different character to what it really was. That is the merit which this roof has, and this is the lesson which it teaches to architects and those interested in art and the artistic side of buildings. Although £70,000 will be spent upon renovating this roof, a knowledge of its beauties and merits, and even a knowledge of its characteristics, will still be concealed from the vast majority of people. I think it would be a pity, when we are undertaking this large expenditure, that we should not try to do something to make a fuller and more complete knowledge of the remarkable qualities of this roof available to the general public and to ourselves. From what I saw to-day my appetite was whetted, and I am inspired to ask that much fuller information should be supplied. I believe that the inquiries which have been conducted by the architects who have been engaged on this work have resulted in the acquiring of a very large amount of interesting information. I believe that a large number of interesting drawings and plans have been prepared. Some of them are on view in the Tea Room, and we can judge from the few on view there of the extraordinary interesting character of those drawings. I suggest that the Report which is published should be of the fullest possible nature, and that as many as possible of these drawings—[Interruptions.]—some of them of a nature which would appeal even to the futurists on the bench opposite, whose political principles seem to be of a futurist nature also. I suggest that as large a number as possible of these extremely beautiful drawings which have been prepared should be published in the Report, which will, no doubt, be submitted. I would ask the hon. Member to use his utmost efforts to secure permission to publish a large number of these drawings.

    Before this Vote is passed, I think there are one or two questions which my hon. Friend ought to answer with regard to the £10,000 for provision of additional accommodation for Members in the House on the upper floor, which apparently is a part of the House which has never been explored by Members—

    It being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his report to the House.

    Resolution to be reported upon Monday; Committee also report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

    Chaeity Bills

    Coombe Street (Exeter) Independent Chapel

    Foteshill Road (Coventry) Congregational Chapel

    HORBFORTH (WEST RIDING) BAPTIST CHAPEL.

    MAHDEN (KENT) CONGREGATIONAL CHAPEL.

    OLD SLEAFORD (LINCOLNSHIRE) CHAPEL.

    Orders [ 17th April] committing Bills to a Standing Committee read, and discharged. Bills committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Wednesday next.—[Mr. Charles A We".]

    The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

    Army Life And Discipline

    I desire to take this opportunity of calling the attention of the House to a pamphlet recently issued by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, which contains, in my opinion, very regrettable attacks upon Army life and discipline. I may say it is a matter of regret that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War is unable to be present to-night. We all know he has many multitudinous duties, but, having assumed the responsibility of this important office, it is, at any rate, unfortunate that when an Army matter comes up he finds it impossible to attend. This pamphlet is especially regrettable from the point of view of recruiting. We know from the statement made by the late Secretary for War in introducing the Estimates this year that special efforts have bad to be made by the Army authorities to deal with recruiting during the last six or eight months. Cinematograph entertainments have been organised, a large sum of money has been expended in advertising in the Press, and a special booklet has been issued to place the advantages of Army life before the young men of the country. So far as the Territorials are concerned, the position is even worse. There is no possibility of ever obtaining sufficient number of men to bring the force up to the establishment which was originally laid down, and from the statement which was made by the Secretary for War in introducing the Estimates it seemed that we should have to anticipate that the position would be even worse during the next few months.

    Under these circumstances I think it is most undesirable that Members of the Government should in any way associate themselves with attacks upon military life and discipline. The publication which I refer to is one issued under the authority of an organisation known as the National League of Young Liberals. I gather from information contained in the last page of the pamphlet that this is an organisation which has over 500 branches, and the President of the Board of Agriculture is also President of the League, the objects of which are twofold—first, to train young people for politics by promoting systematic study of the problems of citizenship; and, secondly, to create a force of active workers for Liberal and Progressive principles. I understand that this organisation busies itself with the production of pamphlets of this kind, and apparently is anxious that these pamphlets should obtain as wide a circulation as possible, because I find there are specially reduced prices for large quantities for distribution. The particular pamphlet to which I am drawing the attention of the House is one entitled "Democracy and Compulsory Service." The outside contains an excl-lent portrait of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, it gives his name as the author, and appends his Government position, and consequently gives an authoritative element to this pamphlet. I am not concerned with the attacks which this pamphlet contains on the principles of national service, nor have I any fault to find with the references which the hon. Member has made to the Bill which I had the honour to introduce into this House last year advocating the introduction of national service in the Territorial Force. But I may point out to the hon. Member that, having done me the honour to examine my Bill, and to make some criticisms of my proposals, he might have taken the trouble to see that in the various references made to me throughout the pamphlet I was correctly described. In view of the very strong views taken by hon. Members opposite with regard to the necessity of strict discipline in the Army, with which I am in complete agreement, it is rather remarkable to find that the hon. Member appears to have nothing whatever to say in favour of military discipline, but condemns it root and branch, and describes it by saying:—
    Of all forms of subservience short of positive slavery, military subservience is by far the worst."
    Statements of that kind, contained in pamphlets which are intended for very wide circulation, are not likely to produce the strict military discipline which right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have in view. It is not so much from the point of view of discipline that I desire to criticise the hon. Gentleman's pamphlet, but rather the point of view of his regrettable attacks upon what I may call Army life. It is most unjust and unfair upon soldiers who are members of His Majesty's Army, and must have a deterrent effect upon recruiting when the pamphlet is distributed among the young men of this country. It is extremely regrettable that the hon. Member should have thought it desirable to cast a slur upon the class from which our recruits are drawn at the present time. He referred to them as
    "Lads drawn from the poorest of our population."
    He goes on to say:—
    "It is no longer the neglected, the ill-nurtured, the unemployed who are going to exchange their slum home for the regiment."
    Is that the way in which the hon. Member thinks it desirable to refer to the present class of—

    It was very largely quoted in the National Service pamphlets.

    I think the hon. Member is under a complete misapprehension in that respect. There are no quotation marks in the portion of his pamphlet to which I am referring. It is most undesirable, and must produce a very bad effect in the Army when they find that one who ought to be a responsible Member of the Government casts this undeserved slur upon men who are doing their duty and providing for the defence of their country. There is another matter contained on the same page to which I should like to refer. This is one of the hon. Member's observations:—

    "It is not the business of an army to be moral, or to make character. It is its business to teach soldiers to fight at the expense of every other result upon them. Great Generals may be advocates of temperance, and the War Office may seek remedies against disease which is decimating regiments."
    I consider that that is a horrible statement and a horrible insinuation to make against the men of His Majesty's Army. It is completely and absolutely untrue as the hon. Member would have ascertained for himself had he taken the trouble either to attend the Debate when the late Secretary of State for War introduced the Estimates this year or had taken the trouble to read the statistics which were published I think only a few months ago. What will the opinion of the young man of this country be into whose hands this pamphlet falls when at the same time probably from some other source he has received the pamphlets issued by the Secretary of State for War dealing with the advantages of military service? Which of these is he to accept, the terrible state of things depicted by the Secretary to the Board of Education or what is stated in the pamphlet issued by his fellow Minister?
    "Never have conditions under which the soldier lives been more pleasant than those which surround him now. Never has the Army offered greater advantages. Army conditions have of late years been so vastly improved that the soldier's life is nowadays the most healthy and fascinating occupation that young men can adopt."
    Which of these is supposed to be true in the considered opinion of His Majesty's Government? One, of course, is written to obtain recruits and to induce young men to undertake the patriotic work of defending their country. The other is written merely in order to get a party advantage against their political opponents. I suppose we are to understand that this pamphlet is part of the campaign of the people against the Army. And yet hon. Members on the opposite benches who are responsible for these sort of statements appear to be surprised that they are not popular with the men of His Majesty's Army. Doe3 not the hon. Member realise that pamphlets of this kind, widely distributed throughout the length and breadth of the country, find their way into the barrack rooms of the British Army? Has he no idea how bitterly resented these kind of false statements are by the private soldiers? Does he know that they despise and hate the men who are capable of these cowardly attacks, because the men of His Majesty's Army have no opportunity of replying to them? Under the circumstances can they be surprised to find that their authority is weakening and that discipline is impaired? I hope that in view of all that has occurred, the hon. Member may see fit to withdraw this pamphlet from circulation altogether, and that, at any rate, the Secretary of State for War and the other Members of the Government will take some opportunity of dissociating: themselves from this publication.

    The hon. and gallant Gentleman, whose title I regret I did not correctly cite in my pamphlet, apparently thinks that this pamphlet is likely to have a serious effect upon recruiting. Of course it is very gratifying to me in my position at the Board of Education to think that large numbers of young men of the recruiting age are accustomed to read 33-page pamphlets, for presumably this is not the only pamphlet which they have been reading. I am glad that the standard of education is rising in the way of political education at so young an age. I can reassure the hon. and gallant Gentleman with regard to the effect of the pamphlet. I have inquired where the pamphlet has had most circulation, and it is in the West Riding of Yorkshire and Northumberland. I am glad to say that last year the recruiting in both those counties has gone up. There is another direction in which the pamphlet had some sale. The National Service League purchased a good deal more than a hundred copies, and they have been writing about it ever since, and that is really what is moving the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I cannot imagine that he really supposed that a political pamphlet of this kind does fall into the hands of many people likely to be recruits in His Majesty's Army. The hon. Gentleman has made a perfectly baseless accusation against me in relation to this pamphlet. He says I have attacked the British Army. I have done nothing of the kind. I have been stating the arguments against compulsory service. Everyone knows that one of the chief arguments which is depended upon by the National Service people is that it is going to improve the morals and health of the British people if we have compulsory service. That is a perfectly legitimate opinion to hold, but it is not the opinion held by the mass of Englishmen, and certainly not by all Englishmen, and I am perfectly within my rights in arguing that the health and morals of barrack life are not so good as the health and morals of home life. Against the British Army I make no accusation; in fact, the very passage which the hon. and gallant Member read is proof of my complete appreciation of what is done by the British Army. I have listened to the Debates to which my hon. and gallant Friend alludes, and I have heard my own colleagues speaking about the British Army. I am sorry that I have not the literary faculty of all my family, but what I meant when I wrote this sentence, "Great generals may be advocates of temperance," was—and when I republish this pamphlet I will write—" As far as the British Army is concerned, I am aware that Lord Roberts is a great advocate of temperance, and has done a great deal for the British Army. "That is what I mean. When I wrote" and the War Office may seek remedies against disease which is decimating regiments, "what I meant—and it is perfectly well known—was that there has been disease in British regiments in the past, and that the War Office has been doing what it can in order to prevent it, and that it had to a great extent succeeded. When I republish the pamphlet I will say: "Such efforts at moral training or paternal care are liable to be conflicting, and can never alter the main facts of the life." That is the argument upon which I insist. [An HON. MEMBER: IS that the insinuation?"] The argument which I am putting forward here is that barrack life is liable to be dangerous. I have no doubt that there are large numbers of people in this country who think that barrack life is the most healthy life possible, but there are large numbers of people afraid of it. I am not talking exclusively of England. Here in England we have now a voluntary Army, and there is one very strong motive in a voluntary Army to see that the conditions of barrack life are good, a motive which would not exist when the military authorities could get what men they liked as recruits.

    It is not open to any Member, Noble Lord or otherwise, to interrupt. It is a most reprehensible practice, and I should be very glad to stop it if I possibly could.

    If hon. Members say that barrack life is good for the morals and discipline of the people they must learn to expect us to reply that we believe that to be untrue. We may be wrong. They may be wrong. But if the hon. Gentleman had gone on to read the passage to which I refer he would have seen that I do not treat it as a chose jugée, but simply state that there are two sides to the question, and there are a large number of people who believe that barrack life is not a good thing for the whole community. I also say that the question is not settled in France. It was only the other day that I was reading a series of opinions from all sorts of Frenchmen collected in one of the most responsible magazines of France in which they asked for a general judgment with regard to barrack life in France. I admit that among them there were a certain number of views given which bore out the views of the hon. Gentleman, but there were just as many, or rather more, that led one to believe that the minds of the people in France were extremely anxious about the results of barrack life on the whole of the population. That is the proposition that I want to put forward, and hon. Gentlemen opposite have no right to object to the question being discussed as to whether, under compulsory service—not voluntary, but compulsory service, an entirely different thing, it is likely that you will get the same kind of good results that you get in barrack life in England to-day. Of course we admit, and we are proud, that the results in recent years have been better; but what we are compelled to consider when we are asked to become a conscriptionist nation ourselves is: Are the results in conscriptionist nations so satisfactory as to lead us to follow other nations who have adopted that system?

    The hon. Gentlemen say that they are not in favour of conscription. We are discussing a proposition which we think would lead to conscription. If the hon. Gentleman is going to raise all these points we may "very day have a discussion on some one point in this infinite controversy, but on the main point which the hon. Gentleman raises in the question, whether a political pamphlet is going to have any effect on recruiting, I really think that he has exaggerated its importance and that he might well have left it in the comparative obscurity in which, I have no doubt, he wishes it to-remain.

    Adjourned at Twenty-nine minutes after Eleven o'clock.