House of Commons
Monday, May 25, 1914
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with), —Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Hightown Gas and Electricity Bill [ Lords ].
Aire and Calder Navigation Bill [ Lords ].
Great Northern Railway Bill [ Lords ],
North Eastern Railway Bill [ Lords ],
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 16) Bill.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 17) Bill.
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 18) Bill.
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 19) Bill.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill.
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.
Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 14) Bill.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 15) Bill.
Sea Fisheries (Emsworth) Provisional Order Bill.
Land Drainage (Tillingham Valley) Provisional Order Bill.
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.
Private Bills (Group F),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from the Serjeant-at-Arms attending this House, as follows:—
25th May, 1914.
Sir,
I have to report that I have been unable to Serve Mr. Macmaster with the Order of the House of 22nd May, 1914, to attend the Committee on Group F of Private Bills on Monday, 25th May, owing to his departure to America, and I am informed that he is not expected to return before the middle of June.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your obedient servant,
H. D. ERSKINE,
Serjeant-at-Arms.
To the Right Honourable the Speaker.
Cardiff Railway Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Birmingham Corporation Bill,
Walsall Corporation Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Mablethorpe Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],
Nottingham Mechanics Institution (Amendment)Bill [ Lords ]
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Belfast Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Bristol Water Bill [ Lords ],
To be read a second time To-morrow.
Hull and Barnsley Railway Bill [ Lords ],
Read a second time, and committed.
Liverpool United Gaslight Company Bill [ Lords ],
To be read a second time To-morrow.
North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Bill [ Lords ],
Reading Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
St. George's Hospital Bill [ Lords ],
Read a second time, and committed.
Wesleyan and General Assurance Society Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill,
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Railless Electric Traction Provisional Order Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 8) [Kingstown] Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
As amended, considered.
moved at the end of the Schedule to add, as a new paragraph—
"When the Kingstown Urban District Council (hereinafter called 'the District Council') shall have become the Undertakers for the purposes of this Order, the following provisions shall apply:—
Amendment made. Bill to be read the third time upon Tuesday, 9th June.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
"To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the Urban Districts of Cashel and Castlebar, the Rural Districts of Mountmellick and Sligo, and the Bangor and Newtownards Joint Hospital District." Presented by Mr. BIRRELL; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 274.]
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill,
"To confirm a Provisional Order of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the counties of Antrim and Londonderry." Presented by Mr. BIRRELL; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 275.]
Dundee Boundaries Extension and Gas Order Confirmation Bill,
"To confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Dundee Boundaries Extension and Gas." Presented by Mr. McKINNON WOOD; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered on Tuesday, 9th June.
Trade Reports (Annual Series)
Copies presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 5275 to 5277, 5284, 5286, and 5287 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
EGYPT (No. 1, 1914)
Copy presented of Report by His Majesty's Agent and Consul-General on the Finances, Administration, and Condition of Egypt and the Sudan in 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Board of Education
Copy presented of Report for the year 1913 on the Victoria and Albert Museum and the Bethnal Green Museum [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865
Copy presented of Four Orders in Council, dated 14th May, 1914, under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 14th May, 1914, under the Act, entitled the Zanzibar (Merchant Shipping) Order in Council, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Seal Fisheries (North Pacific) Acts, 1895 and 1912
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 14th May, 1914, entitled the Seal Fisheries (Crown Colonies and Protectorates) Order in Council, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Extradition Acts, 1870 to 1906
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 14th May, 1914, directing that the Acts shall apply in the case of Germany under and in accordance with the Treaties of 14th May, 1872 and 5th May, 1894, as supplemented by the Convention of the 4th May, 1910, for the Suppression of the White Slave Traffic [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Bishoprics Act, 1878, and Bishoprics of Sheffield, Chelmsford, and for the County of Suffolk Act, 1913
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 30th March, 1914, approving a Scheme of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners with respect to the Bishopric of Chelmsford and the contiguous dioceses of Ely, St. Albans and St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Board of Agriculture and Fisheries
Copy presented of Report of the Progress of the Ordnance Survey to the 31st March, 1914 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Annual Report of the Chief Veterinary Officer for the year 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
National Health Insurance Commission (Ireland)
Copy presented of Order made by the Irish Insurance Commissioners as to Employment under Local and Public Authorities [by Command]; to He upon the Table.
National Debt
Copy presented of Return showing (1) the Aggregate Gross Liabilities of the State as represented by the Nominal Funded Debt, Estimated Capital Liability in respect of Terminable Annuities, Unfunded Debt, and other Liabilities in respect of Debt, the Estimated Assets, and the Exchequer Balances at the close of each financial year from 1835–6 to 1913–14, both inclusive; and (2) the Gross and Net Expenditure charged annually during that period against the Public Revenue on account of the National Debt, and other Payments connected with Capital Liabilities [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copies presented of Orders made by the Councils of the county of Norfolk and of the boroughs of Dunstable and Wolver-hampton under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Mercantile Marine (Issue of Certificates of Competency)
Copy presented of Return of the number of Certificates of Competency issued in the Mercantile Marine and the Sea-fishing Service [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Coal Mines Act, 1911
Copy presented of General Regulations, dated 19th May, 1914, made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Act, amending the provisions as to Reserve in Part IV. of the General Regulations, dated 10th July, 1913 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Unemployment Insurance
Copy presented of the Special Extension Order (Unemployment Insurance) Rules, 1914, made by the Board of Trade under Part II. of the National Insurance Act, 1911 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 250.]
Harwich Harbour
Copy presented of Abstract of the Accounts of the Receipts and Expenditure of the Harwich Harbour Conservancy Board from the time of their incorporation down to and inclusive of the 31st March, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Wireless Telegraphy
Copy presented of Report of the Committee appointed by the Postmaster-General to consider the report how far and by what methods the State should make provision for Research Work in the Science of Wireless Telegraphy [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Supreme Court (Rules)
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House. Copy of Rules of the Supreme Court, dated 20th May, 1914 [by Act].
British Nationality and Status of Aliens Bill
Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee C.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 251.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 251.]
Bill [not amended in the Standing Committee] to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday, 9th June.]
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Chesterfield Corporation Bill,
Land Drainage (Rippingale) Provisional Order Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to provide for the regulation of Moveable Dwellings." [Moveable Dwellings Bill [ Lords ].
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for the transfer of the undertaking of the Slaithwaite Gas Company to the Long-wood Gas Company; to confer further powers on the Longwood Gas Company; and for other purposes." [Longwood and Slaithwaite Gas Bill [ Lords .]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Company to acquire additional lands for gas and water purposes; to raise additional capital; to create a further amount of debenture stock; and for other purposes." [Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Company Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for an increase of the contributions to the Railway Clearing System Superannuation Fund by the Railway Clearing House, certain Railway Companies and Joint Committees, the Clearing House Committee (Ireland), and certain contributing members of the fund; and for other purposes." [Railway Clearing System Superannuation Fund Corporation Bill [ Lords.
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Company; and for other purposes." [Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer additional powers upon the Midland Railway Company and the Cheshire Lines Committee for the construction of works, and upon that Company and Committee and the Midland and Great Northern Railways Joint Committee for the acquisition of lands; and for other purposes," [Midland Railway Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Corporation of Birkenhead to provide and work motor omnibuses; to make further provision with respect to the ferries of the Corporation; and for other purposes." [Birkenhead Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Citizens of the city of Manchester with reference to street works, waterworks, tramways, main drainage works, and the supply of electricity and otherwise for the better local government and improvement of the city; to alter the wards thereof; and for other purposes." [Manchester Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the Yorkshire Electric Power Company." [Yorkshire Electric Power Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Corporation of Bristol to construct works and to enlarge certain cemeteries in the city of Bristol; to confer further powers upon the Corporation; and for other puposes." [Bristol Corporation (Various Powers) Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers on the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company; to make provision with respect to the supply of electricity to the company; and) for other purposes." [London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Bill [ Lords. ]
Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend the enactments relating to the calorific power of the gas supplied by the Gas Light and Coke Company, and to relieve that Company from their obligations as to the illuminating power of such gas; and for other purposes." [Gas Light and Coke Company Bill [ Lords. ]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the compulsory limits of water supply of the burgh of Motherwell; to confer further powers as to water supply; to construct and maintain sewers and sewage purification works; to acquire lands; to Borrow money; and for other purposes." [Motherwell Water and Sewage Purification Bill [ Lords. ]
Longwood and Slaithwaite Gas Bill [ Lords. ],
Rhymney and Aber Valleys Gas and Water Bill [ Lords ],
Railway Clearing System Superannuation Fund Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Shropshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire Electric Power Bill [ Lords ],
Midland Railway Bill [ Lords ],
Birkenhead Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Manchester Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Yorkshire Electric Power Bill [ Lords ],
Bristol Corporation (Various Powers) Bill [ Lords ],
London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Bill [ Lords] ,
Gas Light and Coke Company Bill [ Lords ],
Motherwell Water and Sewage Purification Bill [ Lords ],
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Standing Orders
Resolutions reported from the Select Committee:—
1. "That, in the case of the Great Central Railway (Pension Fund) Bill [ Lords ], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with: That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
2. "That, in the case of the Glasgow Corporation (Celluloid) Bill, Petition for additional Provision, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with: That the parties be permitted to insert their additional Provision if the Committee on the Bill think fit,"
Resolutions agreed to.
Private Bills (Group F)
Sir John Barran reported from the Committee on Group F of Private Bills; That Mr. Macmaster, one of the Members of the said Committee, was not present during the sitting of the Committee this day.
Sir John Barran reported from the Committee on Group F of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Wednesday, 10th June, at Eleven of the clock.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL
Reported, with an Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill, as amended, to be considered upon Tuesday, 9th June.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Trans-Persian Railway
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the event of Great Britain agreeing to the extension of the proposed Trans-Persian Railway beyond the sphere of Russian interests, the stipulation will be made that all extensions south of the sphere of Russian interests shall be constructed on the Indian gauge and not on the Russian gauge, so that British and Indian goods will have the same facilities for entering Persia in the south, without break of gauge, as Russian goods will have in the
The question of gauge has been considered by His Majesty's Government, who are fully alive to the desiderata of British commerce. I am unable, however, at this juncture to make a definite statement on the point.
May I ask whether, in view of the positive declaration respecting the special interests possessed by Great Britain in the Persian Gulf—in the Russian Convention, 1907—the hon. Gentleman can give an assurance that no railway on a foreign gauge will be permitted to run to the shores of the Persian Gulf?
I must ask for notice of that question.
Paramaribo
asked the name of His Majesty's Consul at Paramaribo; and the amount of salary paid to him by the Foreign Office?
Mr. G. Hewett, who was until recently at Paramaribo as His Majesty's Consul, is now on sick leave, and is unlikely to return to his post. His successor has not yet been appointed. Mr. Hewett's salary was £800, and his successor, who will be a more junior officer, will be on the scale £600-££700.
New Hebrides
asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to give any information with regard to the appointment and meeting of an Anglo-French Commission for the purpose of considering questions arising out of the condominium in the New Hebrides?
As I stated in this House last week, a conference has been agreed to by the French Government, and will be held in London shortly.
Can the lion. Gentleman say anything with regard to British representation at that conference?
I cannot yet. I will, if I may, let the hon. Member know as soon as it is settled.
Mexico
asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, if he has any information with regard to the alleged extraction by the Mexican Constitutionalists of a forced loan from British and other foreign residents at Tampico; and if any steps have been taken, directly or through the American Government, to protect British interests in this matter?
I have nothing to add to the answer given to the hon. Member for Nottingham on the 21st instant.
Small Holdings
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture how many acres of land have been secured for applicants under the Small Holdings and Parish Councils Acts; for how many persons; and the number of acres and applicants which are in the county of Wiltshire?
Up to the 31st December, 1913, 182,022 acres had been acquired for approximately 13,700 small holdings applicants, and the quantity of land acquired for allotments was 31,271 acres, which was let to 118,240 persons and 49 co-operative associations. In Wiltshire the land acquired for small holdings amounts to 5,671 acres, and for allotments to 1,029 acres. The small holdings are let to 260 persons, and the allotments to 3,439 persons.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the greater part of the area of Wilts which the hon. Member is now seeking to represent in this House as its Member is wholly un-suited for small holdings?
Government Building Contracts
Trades Union Wages
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether any persons employed on the public buildings in course of construction in Great George Street, Westminster, are receiving less than the trade union rate of wages; and, if so, will he explain why?
On inquiry five labourers were found to be employed on the New Public Offices Extension at the rate of 7½d. an hour, as they were not considered by the contractors to be capable of commanding the increased rate of 8d. an hour granted since the 4th of April last. The Board have at once given instructions that the full rate must be paid to all labourers under the contract.
Borstal Labourers
asked whether any Borstal youths are or were employed on the public buildings in course of construction in Great George Street, Westminster; how many are so employed; what rate of wages are they receiving; and whether any of these are competing, directly or indirectly, with ordinary labour?
The First Commissioner is unwilling to identify and thus prejudice boys discharged from Borstal. The hon. Member may rest assured, however, that they are not supplied to replace men involved in a dispute, nor save in a few exceptional cases at less than the trade union rates of wages.
National Insurance Act
Scottish Insukance Committees (Expenditure)
asked the hon. Member for St. George' s-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commissioners, whether, in view of the fact that during the past year the necessary expenditure of the majority of Scottish Insurance Committees has exceeded the sum allowed to meet their administration expenses, the Scottish Insurance Commissioners in the meantime guarantee the deficit which insurance committees are daily augmenting in carrying out their duties under the National Insurance Act, or whether the insurance committees should incur no further expenditure until a decisive reply has been given to the Memorandum submitted to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster by the Scottish Association of Insurance Committees on 21st April?
Parliament has already provided a special initial Grant which will enable the deficits for the past financial period to be made good. As regards the current and future years, as I have repeatedly stated in reply to similar questions, my right hon. Friend is considering the best means of meeting the requirements of the situation. As only four months of the current financial year have elapsed, I see no reason why Insurance Committees should take the course suggested in the question.
Do I understand the deficits for the past year are to be made good?
Yes, Sir, the sum provided by Parliament is sufficient to meet all the amounts for last year.
Will it be so in the case of all insurance committees?
Postal and Civil Service Benevolent Society
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if the attention of the National Health Insurance Commissioners has been called to the Actuarial Report, recently published, with regard to the United Kingdom Postal Telegraph and General Civil Service Benevolent Society; if this is an approved society under the National Insurance Act; if the Commissioners were already aware of the financial position of this society; and what, if any, action has been taken in the matter?
The society referred to by the hon. Member is not an approved society, and has no connection whatever with the National Insurance Acts.
General Medical Council
I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department a question, of which I have given him private notice: Whether he is aware that about 1,200 householders in or about Annfield Plain, county Durham, are members of a medical association who have made, with a certain medical man in their neighbourhood, an arrangement satisfactory to themselves and to the said medical man; whether the said medical man is threatened with being struck off the medical register, because he is working for an association which, it is alleged, has canvassed; whether the alleged canvassing is denied by the association in question; whether the case will be heard before the General Medical Council in London on Wednesday this week; whether the charge against this association and their doctor is being supported by certain, other doctors; whether in the event of the view put forward by these other doctors being accepted, the doctor of the association will be struck off the medical list without enjoying any right of appeal; whether, in these circumstances, and in view of the importance of the matter to the working classes, the Home Secretary will take steps to see that the matter is not decided without a full and impartial inquiry into all the facts of the case?
I have received this morning a letter on the subject from a correspondent in Durham, but I have no other information. Assuming the facts to be as stated by my hon. Friend, I do not think, primâ facie, that I have any authority to take action.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inform me whether there is any power to get an impartial decision on this matter, or whether the powers of the General Medical Council are absolute in a matter which evidently concerns themselves?
I should think that if the facts are as stated by my hon. Friend the remedy can only be obtained by a fresh Statute.
Royal Navy
Coaling (Portland)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether men employed at Portland by two coaling firms, contractors to the Admiralty, have been locked out for joining a trade union; whether he will make inquiries into the matter; and, in the event of the two companies concerned persisting in their policy with regard to trade unionists, whether he will break the monopoly enjoyed by them and throw the station open for competition?
The Admiralty do no coaling by contract at Portland.
Rosyth (Dockyard Church)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what steps are being taken at Rosyth to provide for a dockyard church?
It is not proposed to provide a dockyard church.
Are the Government prepared to give a site?
It is not proposed to grant free sites for places of worship on the land to be used for Admiralty purposes, but it would be open to religious bodies to apply to feu land within the town plan.
Admiralty Contracts (Fair-Wages Clause)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the firm of A. G. Mumford, Limited, of Colchester, are at present engaged on any work for the Admiralty; and, if so, can he state what such work comprises and the value of such contract?
The firm has several direct orders for the Admiralty for engineering work, and in addition they have orders for Admiralty work which they are executing as sub-contractors to other firms.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is making inquiries into an alleged violation of the Fair-Wages Clause by Messrs. G. and G. Curtiss, Portsmouth, cartage contractors to the Admiralty; whether he is aware that, although the carters in the employ of this firm have recently received an increase in their wages after some agitation, the rate is still only 21s. a week,. the hours being from 5.30 a.m. to 7 p.m., except on Saturdays when work ceases at 4 p.m., and two hours on Sundays without pay; whether he is aware that the carters directly employed by the Department receive 24s. a week for 48 hours; that the Portsmouth Corporation and the local cooperative society pay their carters 26s. a week; and that contractors to the corporation are obliged to pay their carters 24s. a week; whether he is aware that Messrs. Curtiss have recently discharged over thirty of their carters for attending a trade union demonstration; that the firm do not now employ a single trade unionist; and that the policy of the firm is antitrade union; and whether he will have full inquiry made into the matter without delay?
I have not yet come to a final conclusion regarding the wages question; but I hope to do so shortly. As regards the discharges, I understand that these were made in consequence of the refusal of the men to obey the orders of the firm. The-firm deny that they discriminate between union and non-union labour.
Admirals Superintendent of Dockyards (Official Interview)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if Admirals Superintendent of Dockyards were recently summoned to the Admiralty on official business; whether, on arrival, they were ordered to report themselves at the House of Commons; and if he will say what was the reason for this order?
The Admirals Superintendent of the Chatham, Devonport, and Portsmouth yards were asked to attend at the Admiralty on Wednesday, the 13th instant, for the purpose of considering whether, by a possible readjustment of work between the yards mentioned, certain contemplated discharges of workmen might be avoided. These officers attended at the Admiralty, and the matter was discussed there. It was necessary that my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary should also see them, and, as he was in attendance upon the House at the time, they were requested to meet him in his room during the course of the afternoon. This they did, together with the Director of Dockyards and Dockyard Work, and in consequence certain readjustments of work were put forward and approved, which my right hon. Friend informs me will, to a great extent, render unnecessary discharges of workmen which would otherwise have had to take place. I do not understand why this procedure should call for notice, nor how the hon. and gallant Member came to be informed of the movements of officials engaged upon Admiralty business.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that the House of Commons is the best place in which to carry on departmental business?
Certainly, Sir, it is a perfectly proper place for persons to be received on official business.
Is not the real reason for these officers coining to the House of Commons the fear in which the Government lives of their dwindling majority disappearing?
It is the duty of Ministers as often as possible to be in attendance upon the House. My right hon. Friend has to do a large portion of his work down here, and no one has ever challenged such a course before. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has not told me how it was he knew of it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be in a position to inform the House of the result of these conversations between the Admiralty and the representatives of the dockyards?
The result will be to greatly reduce the number of these discharges.
FIRST LORD or THE ADMIRALTY (AEROPLANE FLIGHTS)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he could so arrange as to have personal flights on aeroplanes belonging to the Royal Navy on days of the week other than Sundays, owing to the custom of the service being not to hold unnecessary parades on the Sabbath day and to the fact that such parades give the men engaged extra duty upon a day which is otherwise a holiday?
I have never flown in a naval aeroplane or seaplane on a Sunday.
Have any naval hands been employed in connection with these flights on Sundays?
Has the right hon. Gentleman ever attended a bullfight on a Sunday?
asked the right hon. Gentleman under whose authority he takes hydro-aeroplanes in the Navy out, and who gives the executive orders?
Such orders are given by the Inspecting Captain of Aircraft in the regular manner.
Who pays for any vessels kept in attendance in case the right hon. Gentleman makes a forced landing?
Torpedo-Boat Destroyer Flotilla (Ulster Coast)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the weekly amount of oil-fuel being consumed by the torpedo-boat destroyer flotilla now engaged in blockading the coast of Ulster; whether this oil is being taken from the war reserve or current supplies; what is the present price of such fuel; and under what Estimates will this expenditure appear?
I am advised that it is not the practice to furnish particulars of the quantities or contract cost of fuel expended by the Fleet, and I see no reason to make an exception in the present case. The expenditure will constitute a normal charge on the current fuel estimate Vote 8/2 K.
Is it not a fact that for some time past oil fuel has been withdrawn from destroyers for ordinary training for the defence of the United Kingdom, and that it is not until the right hon. Gentleman wants to use these destroyers against Ulster that an expenditure of 2,000 tons a week is permitted?
Questions
Public Health (Milk and Cream) Regulations, 1912
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he has now inquired into the case which came recently before the magistrates at the Nottingham Summons Court, in which proceedings were taken against the Farmers and Cleveland Dairy Company, Limited, for selling cream containing formalin as a preservative contrary to the Public Health (Milk and Cream) Regulations, 1912, and in which the magistrates declined to convict the defendants on the technical ground that no penalty had been prescribed by law in the event of the contravention of such regulations, but only for wilful refusal to obey them; and whether he proposes to take any and, if any, what action in the matter to prevent such regulations proving abortive in the future?
I understand that this case is still sub-judice.
Stoneydelph (Wilnecote Ecclesiastical Parish)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether in 1873 the Local Government Board by an Order in Council separated Stoneydelph from the ecclesiastical parish of Amington and joined it to the ecclesiastical parish of Wilnecote, for which a burial board district was formed and a cemetery called into existence; whether he is aware that on 14th March, 1913, an inquiry was held on behalf of the Local Government Board by Major F. H. Tulloch, M.I. C.E., in consequence of the application of the Amington Parish Council for a loan for a burial board; whether he is aware that, in spite of the Order of 1873, the Law Officers of the Crown then advised that Amington and Stoneydelph, which is three miles from Amington cemetery by the main road, must be treated as one parish for the new Amington burial board purposes; and, whether in view of the petition of the inhabitants of Stoneydelph which, with its accompanying ordnance map showing the lie of the ground, has been handed in to the President of the Board of Trade to protest against the injustice meted out to them of having to pay burial rates twice over under the Order of 1913, the Local Government Board will reconsider the decision then arrived at, and allow Stoneydelph to remain in the ecclesiastical parish of Wilnecote as by the Order in Council of 1873?
I am making further inquiry into this matter, and will communicate with the hon. Member.
Vaccination Acts
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the hostility of parents to the enforcement of vaccination, as indicated by the material increase in the number of declarations of conscientious objection under the Act of 1907, he will consider the advisability of introducing a Bill providing that in any district where the number of vaccinations falls below 50 per cent, of the births the board of guardians of such district may have the option of deciding whether the penal Clauses of the Vaccination Acts shall be put into operation against any defaulters?
:I do not contemplate legislation of this character.
Malton. Rural Council (Housing)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a discussion of the Malton Rural Council on Saturday, 16th May, on the question of issuing demolition orders with respect to certain cottages at Welburn, which are alleged to be so insanitary as to be incapable of repair; whether the demolition orders have now been issued; whether he is aware that the agent of the owner of the cottages, when asked by the clerk of the council if she was prepared to erect new cottages to accommodate the persons displaced, refused to give such an undertaking; and whether, in view of the alleged scarcity of cottages at Welburn, the Government propose to take any steps in the matter?
I am informed by the clerk to the Malton Rural Council that, at the time the council made a closing order in regard to the cottages referred to, the cottages were and had been been for some time unoccupied, being unfit for habitation. No demolition orders were made, as, prior to the consideration on the 16th May of the question of demolition, the owner informed the council that the demolition was being proceeded with, and that it would have cost more to make the cottages habitable than they were worth. I have no information as to whether the owner does or does not intend to build other cottages, but the demolition of the cottages now in question has not involved the displacement of any persons, and at present the council hope that if any insufficiency of accommodation is found to exist it will be remedied by the owner.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any objection to giving the name of the owner?
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give me notice.
Motor Cars (Dazzling Headlights)
asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the fact that the International Automobile Convention of 4th October, 1909, by Article 5, provided that the use of dazzling lights on motor cars is in all instances prohibited in towns; and why no steps have been taken to have this Regulation enforced in England?
The convention referred to dealt with the Regulations to be applied to cars travelling in countries other than that where their owner is domiciled. It does not require any country adhering to the convention to forbid any kind of headlight within its own territory. As my right hon. Friend explained on the 9th March, it has not been found possible up to the present to make compulsory Regulations on the subject.
Concrete Pipes
asked the President of the Local Government Board, if, in the public interest, he will consider the desirability of the publication of a standard specification for concrete pipes for strength, porosity, and density, so that local authorities, when asking for tenders may be able to clearly state the quality of pipes they require, and that all manufacturers of concrete pipes may have a fair opportunity of tendering for same?
I do not think it would be advisable for the Local Government Board to issue a standard form of specification, but I will bring the hon. Member's question to the notice of the Engineering Standards Committee, who are a body supported by the leading technical institutions, and are engaged in drawing up standard specifications of all kinds of materials used in the execution of public works.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if in most cases concrete pipes of the manufacture of Messrs. John Ellis and Company are specified in public contracts by most of the borough and municipal engineers and surveyors, whereas no special make of iron, steel, or earthenware pipes is specified when calling for tenders; whether any of the Local Government Board inspectors suggest to borough and council engineers and surveyors to use concrete pipes of the manufacture of John Ellis and Company, of Leicester; and, if so, for what reason?
The terms of the contracts of local authorities scarcely ever come before the Local Government Board, and the Board have no information as to whether the practice referred to in the first part of the question is a common one. With regard to the last sentence, the engineering inspectors not only do not make any such suggestions, but in any cases where it does come to their notice that a special manufacturer is mentioned they object to it.
Condition of Blind (Departmental Committee)
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will consider the desirability of placing a direct representative of blind employés on the Departmental Committee appointed to inquire into the condition of the blind?
I have in-invited the organising secretary of the National League of the Blind to become a member of the Committee, and he has accepted the invitation.
Road Board (Classification of Roads)
asked the President of the Local Government Board how many county councils, urban and rural district councils, and town councils, respectively, have been asked by the Road Board to obtain information for them for their classification of roads?
Sixty-one county councils, 246 non-county boroughs. 803 urban district councils, and 652 rural district councils.
Are we to understand that this £6,000 or £7,000 is going to pay the expenses of all these councils?
That is the next question.
asked what amount is allowed for maps and what amount for wages in the estimate of £6,000 to £7,000 for the cost of local authorities of obtaining the information for classification of roads as set out in the circular of 30th April from the Road Board; and what is the average allowance per hour for men taking the census?
In my speech in the House on the 18th instant I distinctly stated that the estimate of £6,000 or £7,000 was in respect of the census of traffic itself, and was exclusive of expenses for maps and other purposes. I also stated that the average cost of 30s. for each census point was estimated on the assumption that the local authorities would usually employ their own roadmen or police. That figure, therefore, is not based on any average allowance of wages per hour.
Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman wishes to amend his speech the other day when he said £6,000 or £7,000 would cover the whole?
The hon. Gentleman is totally wrong. I did not say so.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state what is the latest date beyond 18th May, as mentioned in the circular of 30th April, "by which local authorities may send in supplementary census points to the Road Board for their classification of roads?
No final date has been fixed, but it is desirable that the summer months, when motor traffic is greatest, should be utilised for the traffic census itself.
Will the hon. Gentleman see that local authorities are informed that the circular of 30th April sent out by the Road Board in which 18th May is given as the date by which census points must be notified, has now been altered and the date extended?
That was fully discussed in the Debate.
Local Authorities (Housing)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has lately called upon local authorities to supply him with detailed information concerning housing in their respective areas; whether he is aware that in many districts medical officers of health, sanitary inspectors, clerks, and other officials are already working at high pres- sure endeavouring to carry out the requirements of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act and other recent enactments; and whether, in the event of local authorities employing additional assistance to obtain this further information without undue delay, he will see that the cost is not placed on the rates?
Under Section 17 of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1909, it is a duty of each local authority to make inspection of their district, and to obtain and record full information as to all houses which are unfit for habitation, and a number of other particulars. That Section contemplated that the necessary expenditure should be borne by the authority. Much of the remaining information now required to be transmitted to the Local Government Board is either readily available or would usually be obtained in ordinary course in the exercise of their duties under the Housing Acts and Public Health Act, if those duties are properly performed. In. the circumstances, as at present advised, I see no reason for asking the Treasury to sanction a special Grant for this purpose.
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question in which I ask if it is necessary to employ extra labour, will the Local Government Board see that it does not fall upon the rates?
That is the question I have answered. I see no reason to ask the Treasury to sanction a special Grant.
Are we to take it that the Local Government Board will place a fresh burden on local ratepayers in order to find out information for Government purposes?
Keighley Waterworks
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether the housing and hospital Clause was inserted in the Keighley Waterworks Act; if so, whether he is aware that no housing or hospital accommodation has so far been provided by the promoters for the men employed upon these works; and what action, if any, he proposes to take in the matter?
By Section 12 of the Keighley Corporation Act, 1912, the corporation are required to provide housing and hospital accommodation for the workmen employed on the construction of a reservoir. I have been in communication with the corporation who informed me that they would at once erect huts for the housing of workmen if it was found that the accommodation available in the immediate neighbourhood proved insufficient. With regard to hospital accommodation the corporation have made arrangements with the Keighley and Bingley Joint Hospital Board.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Clause placed the onus upon himself to see that proper accommodation is provided, and that there is no such accommodation?
No. The obligation is on the local authority to provide the accommodation. We made inquiries, and we were assured there was ample accommodation. I will at once make further inquiries, and if the accommodation is not adequate I shall press the corporation to fulfil their duties.
Railway Rates
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has made inquiry as to whether the railway companies which carry traffic from the ports to inland towns have raised their rates for foreign traffic as the result of the passing of the Railway Act, 1912, or whether, as when a general rise in rates took place in 1892–3, foreign traffic is being exempted from the burden of the increased charge; and, if so, what is the result of such inquiry?
I have made inquiry of the railway companies, and I am informed that there has been no exemption of foreign traffic, as such, from the recent general increase of rates. The companies also state that it would no doubt be possible to find instances in which individual rates have not been increased, but such instances are exceptional in character.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that in these exceptional instances the home producer does not suffer as a result of foreign competition?
I will look into the matter.
Panama-Pacific Exhibition
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the director of the expositions branch of the Board of Trade visited Germany and discussed the question of England and Germany participating in the Panama-Pacific Exposition to be held at San Francisco next year; and if he is aware that several German merchants attribute the abstention of their Government to the visit of the director of the British expositions branch of the Board of Trade?
The director of the exhibition branch of the Board of Trade has made no visit to Germany for the purpose named; but, of course, in the ordinary performance of his duties he frequently has informal conversations with representatives of foreign exhibition authorities on subjects connected with international exhibitions generally. I find it difficult to believe that German merchants hold the opinion ascribed to them in the question; but if any of them do so, it must be entirely without foundation.
asked the Prime Minister whether any decision regarding the participation of the British Government in the Panama-Pacific Exhibition has yet been arrived at?
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that the anti-British agitation in the United States, occasioned largely by His Majesty's Government refusing the invitation of the President of the United States to participate in the Panama-Pacific Exposition to be held at San Francisco next year, occurred after His Majesty's Government had announced that the British Fleet would be present at the opening of the Panama Canal?
asked whether the Government has changed its mind on the subject of British official participation in the Panama-Pacific Exposition at San Francisco?
In view of the representations recently made by a number of Members of the House the Government have carefully reconsidered the matter, and have come to the conclusion that they must adhere to their decision. The Board of Trade, after full inquiry, are satisfied that there is no such widespread desire on the part of British manufacturers and traders to exhibit as would render possible official British participation on an adequate scale, nor at this date would it in any case be practicable to arrange it. The Government do not think that any good purpose would be served by some method of participation that would not be on a scale proportionate to other exhibits. They have accepted the invitation of the United States Government to take part in the ceremony of the opening of the canal, and intend to send a contingent of ships for that purpose to show the importance which they attach to the occasion, and their goodwill. His Majesty's Government feel that this will be more suitably shown as regards the canal by this ceremony than by a formal participation in the exhibition, though they have no desire to discourage British exhibitors who wish, on their own account, to send exhibits.
SS. "Turret Hill."
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, when the steamship "Turret Hill" left Goole, previous to foundering, on the 13th instant, her coal was under hatches and properly stowed; whether the attention of the surveyor of the Board of Trade had been called to the steamship "Turret Hill" leaking on occasions previous to her last journey; and whether he is prepared to appoint a representative of the seamen to act with the Board of Trade representative on the inquiry into the loss of life arising out of the founding of the steamship "Turret Hill?"
A formal inquiry has been ordered into the loss of the "Turret Hill," and the questions mentioned by the hon. Baronet as to the stowage of the cargo and as to the vessel leaking will be investigated at that inquiry. Meanwhile I should prefer not to say anything which might possibly seem to prejudge the case. The representative of the Board of Trade at those inquiries is the solicitor who conducts the case on behalf of the Board of Trade, and it is not proposed to appoint any person to act with him; but I may point out that all the circumstances connected with the casualty will be fully investigated, and that any person interested may, by leave of the judge, appear at the inquiry, or, if he can give any material evidence, can be called as a witness.
Labour Exchanges
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the reason for the closing or replacing by agencies of the Board of Trade Labour Exchanges?
As I informed the Noble Lord on the 7th May, the reason why a few of the smaller Labour Exchanges are being closed is that as the result of experience, there does not appear to be enough work to be performed by the Exchanges in those districts which cannot equally well be performed by local agencies or by neighbouring Labour Exchanges. On the other hand, there are cases where the work is proving greater than was anticipated, and in which it is accordingly contemplated that local agencies should be replaced by Labour Exchanges.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no occasion for Labour Exchanges in dockyard towns?
That is a matter of opinion.
Ships' Articles
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, as regards ships' articles of agreement, the usual term of service specified therein is two or three years; whether officers and men signing such articles on the presumption that the voyage will be of the usual character are not informed of the probable duration of the voyage and frequently find, after signing articles, that their ships are put in a trade or trades whereby they are engaged on permanent service in waters abroad for the full period of the articles or more; whether, in view of the hardship upon officers and seamen involved by this, he will consider the desirability of amending the present form of ships' articles and ensuring that in cases such as those described officers and men may be entitled to claim additional emoluments for long service abroad which they had not anticipated on signing articles; or whether he can take any other steps in the matter?
This matter is governed by Section 114 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, which requires the agreement to state either the nature and, as far as practicable, the duration or the maximum period of the intended voyage. The maximum period of service varies; it is frequently two years, and sometimes three years. In accordance with Section 115, the superintendent of a mercantile marine office, in the case of an agreement with the crew of a foreign-going ship, causes the agreement to be read over and explained to each seaman—which term includes officers other than the master—or otherwise ascertains that he understands it; but if the hon. Member can refer me to specific cases in which hardship has been caused by failure of an officer or seaman to understand the conditions under which they are undertaking to serve, I shall be prepared to consider them.
S.S. "Columbian."
asked the President of the Board of Trade the date when he first received news that the third boat of the steamship "Columbian" was missing; and whether he communicated with the Admiralty or by wireless with the masters of ships in the neighbourhood of the accident requesting them to make special search for the missing boat?
No reports were received by the Board of Trade as to the missing boat of the " Columbian," but telegrams published in the shipping Press on the 5th, 6th and 7th of May stated that every steamer within range was being communicated with, and that a special search was being made for the missing boat by vessels on the spot. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Am I to understand that the right hon. Gentleman made no personal effort to see that search was made for the missing boat?
The facts were known to the Board of Trade, and it was proved by extracts from the "Shipping Gazette" that vessels on the line of route were doing their best to find the missing boat. Perhaps I may be allowed to pay a special tribute to the chief officer of the last boat for the splendid way in which he handled the whole circumstances connected with the third and the last boat.
The right hon. Gentleman seems to have misunderstood my question. Did he, or did he not, make any personal effort to effect the rescue of this boat?
It was not necessary, because we were informed day by day through the usual channels of the efforts which were being made by all the vessels on that line of route to recover the men.
Then we are to understand that the right hon. Gentleman did nothing?
Post Office
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will consider the advisability of offering in rural districts an alternative tariff to telephone subscribers whereby the minimum rate should be reduced to £3 and no free calls, instead of £5 with 500 free calls?
The present rural party-line tariff, where there are three subscribers per mile of circuit, is practically the same as that suggested by the hon. and Noble Member, except that it includes an unlimited number of calls to subscribers on the same exchange, instead of no free calls as suggested. Former experience showed that for exclusive lines a charge of £3 a year, without any minimum payment for calls, caused considerable loss.
Foreign Postage Rate
asked whether an agreement has been come to by the majority of the nations to reduce foreign postage to l½d.; and when this change may be expected to take place?
I am not aware of any agreement among the majority of nations entitled to vote at the approaching Congress of the Postal Union for the reduction of international postage to lid. Various proposals for reduction have been made, but I am not in a position to forecast the result of the deliberations of the Congress.
Retrenched Officials from South Africa
asked the Postmaster-General whether the Government has reconsidered the case of the retrenched officials from South Africa now employed in the postal department; and, if so, will he say with what result?
The answer is in the negative. I do not see my way to move further in the matter.
Carlisle Staff
asked the Postmaster-General whether he has received any representations from the sorting clerk and telegraphist class stationed at Carlisle with regard to their title to reciprocal promotion, in consequence of the superintendentship at Carlisle Post Office being filled by an officer from Carn-forth; and whether he is now in a position to give a reply?
Inquiry is being made with the object of securing a reciprocal promotion for the Carlisle staff, and I hope to be able to make an announcement at an early date.
River Sub-Office, Dover
asked the Postmaster-General whether postmen in River, which was incorporated in the borough of Dover ten years ago, are paid wages on a lower scale than other postmen in Dover; whether there are three daily deliveries of letters in River, two of which start from the Dover head office, a large number of letters being delivered in other parts of the borough, while letters delivered by the River postmen have to be taken to the Dover head office; whether there is any reason for such discrimination to the disadvantage of the River postmen; and if he will take steps to remedy the grievance complained of?
The circumstances at River were carefully considered before the settlement of the present classification, under which River sub-office is placed in Class IV for scales of pay of postmen, while Dover head office is in Class III. The whole question of classification for outdoor force is again under review, however, in connection with the two recommendations of the Holt Committee.
Housing Accommodation (Coulsdon)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the postmen at Coulsdon, Surrey, find difficulties in obtaining houses; whether he will take any steps to help them to find accommodation reasonably near their work; and whether an order has been issued saying that in future only unmarried postmen are to be employed at Coulsdon?
I am not aware of the circumstances, but I will have inquiry made and will inform the hon. Member of the result.
Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to take any steps to urge the Government to provide housing accommodation for postmen who cannot find houses?
Questions
Manufacture of Armaments
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that at the annual meeting of the American Convention of Labour (representing over two and three-quarter millions of organised workers) a resolution was passed approving the proposal of the British Cabinet that the Governments of Great Britain, Germany, and the United States should cease the manufacture of armaments for one year, and that such resolution was forwarded to the President and Cabinet of the United States with a request that approval should be communicated to the Governments of Great Britain and Germany; and if he is also aware that since the convention was held the House of Representatives of the United States has adopted resolutions favouring such a course of action; and if he will state whether any communication upon the subject has been received from the United States Government, and, if so, with what result?
We have received no communication from the United States Government on this matter.
Development Fund
asked what is the amount of money now in the hands of the Development Commissioners which is free for distribution when called for?
I am informed that, after taking into account both advances actually recommended and the estimated amount of advances which the Development Commissioners have provisionally agreed to recommend, a sum of approximately £900,000 is at present unallocated.
Government of Ireland Bill
Ulster
asked the Prime Minister whether any and, if any, what terms have been offered to the Nationalist party to induce them to agree to the permanent exclusion of Ulster from the operation of the Government of Ireland Bill?
No terms have been offered.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is going to make any statement as to the amending Bill before the Third Reading of the Home Rule Bill?
made no reply.
May I press for a reply?
That does not arise out of this question.
Assent of the Crownn
asked the Prime Minister if the statement made by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster recently regarding the Assent of the Crown to the Government of Ireland Bill under the Parliament Act was made with his knowledge and sanction?
:I do not know what statement the hon. Member has in mind. Perhaps he would kindly send me the reference.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, at a meeting at Ipswich recently, stated that the King would pass the Home Rule Bill irrespective of any—
Certainly!
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it was upon his authority that that statement was made?
I am afraid I have not read all the speeches that were made at Ipswich election.
Questions
General Mackready's Appointment
asked the Secretary of State for War whether any precedent exists in the records of the War Office of the Secretary of State corresponding directly with a general officer in command of troops in time of peace otherwise than through the proper official channels before the incidents which led to the resignation of the late Secretary of State for War; whether any such precedent exists for the appointment in time of peace of a military officer with authority to correspond directly with the Secretary of State and with magisterial duties before the appointment of General Macready to Belfast; and whether such appointments have been rigidly confined to officers wielding executive authority in a conquered province or on the lines of communication of an army engaged on active service?
There is nothing irregular in this course, which has been pursued before, though it is not frequently followed. As regards the general position of Sir Nevile Macready, there are no precise precedents, but I explained the reasons for his appointment in answer to a question on the 30th April.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give a return in regard to the first part of the question of any cases in which there has been this course pursued?
I should like to consider that.
May I ask whether this appointment is for any specific period?
The terms of the appointment have been laid in the White Paper.
Employment of Troops (Civil Disturbances)
asked when the terms of reference to the Select Committee on the Employment of Troops (Civil Disturbances) will be before the House?
The terms of reference are under consideration. I am unable to say when they will be made public, but, as I have already stated, I am doing what I can to expedite the appointment of the Committee.
Will not the terms of reference have relation to the nature of the arms to be used?
The matter is still under consideration.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman inform me in Debate that the sole question to be decided was the nature of the arms to be used, and did not he himself say that the law was clear and intelligible and needed no change?
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will circulate as a Parliamentary Paper the regulation issued from the Government printing office, Dublin, in 1891, entitled General Orders for the Guidance of the Troops in affording Aid to the Civil Power in Ireland?
I am not sure to what document my hon. Friend refers. If he would give me fuller information on the subject, I will certainly consider his request.
Suffragist Outrages
asked what is the extent of the further suffragette outrage at the National Gallery; whether there were any police or guards in the room at the time of the outrage; whether the muffs and reticules carried by all women who enter the Gallery are examined; and what further steps the Government proposes to take to protect the irreplaceable art treasures of the nation?
Five pictures have been comparatively slightly damaged, and, I understand, can easily be repaired. The answer to the second and third parts of the question is in the affirmative. The Trustees, in concert with the Treasury and the Office of Works, are considering the question of what further precautionary measures should be taken.
British Army
Deficiency Below Establishment
asked the Secretary of State for War if he can now state the deficiency below establishment of the Regular Army, Special Reserve, and the Territorials; and how the present numbers c£ the three Services compare with the numbers serving on 1st January last?
The present deficiencies are: — Reserve and Territorial Force by 996 and 12.118, respectively.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman if his attention has been called to the fact that in 1905–6, the last year in which the Unionist Government were responsible for the military forces, the deficiency of the establishment of the Army was 17,000, the Reserve about 10,000, the Militia 32,000, and the Volunteers and Yeomanry 90,000?
Barracks (Religious Denominations)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the possibility of combining a building at Redford Barracks for the use of the varous religious denominations and for the purposes of social recreation commensurate with the needs of the number of troops to be kept there?
The provision necessary for social recreation has already been made. The provision of a separate building for the use of the various religious denominations has been the subject of a conference between representatives from Scotland and the War Office, and they are still in correspondence on the subject.
asked why the Army Council cannot provide the capital cost of a church in connection with Redford Barracks?
In view of other more pressing military necessities, the Army Council regrets that it is unable to increase the funds already devoted to the provision and maintenance of buildings for Divine Service.
Will my hon. Friend tell us what more pressing necessities there are than the providing of buildings for religious services for soldiers?
I said "more pressing military necessities."
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can issue a statement showing the location of Anglican churches in connection with English barracks, etc.; how the money for their erection was obtained; and the annual Grants to each?
The following buildings in England are used only by the Anglican Church: St. George's, Aldershot; All Saints', Aldershot; Portsmouth; Dover Castle; St. George's, Woolwich; Plymouth Citadel. The money for their erection was mostly provided in Votes of Parliament, as far as is known; some at a very distant date, and none during the last twenty years. There are no annual Grants to these, but the fabrics are maintained out of Army Vote 10.
In view of the fact that the Government have provided money for building religious buildings at these other barracks, why cannot they give money for building a church at the new barracks at Bedford as well?
We are hoping to build, but we have not been able to do so up till now.
Messrs. a. G. Mumford, Limited
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the firm of A. G. Mumford, Limited, of Colchester, are at present engaged on any work for the Army; and, if so, what such work comprises and the value of such contract?
No,Sir.
Elphinstone Barracks, Plymouth
asked the Secretary of State for War what steps are being taken to light and protect in a proper manner the wharf at the Elphin-stone barracks, Plymouth, where, on the 5th instant, the late Sapper Fullwood lost his life while on sentry duty; and whether he will consider the desirability of prompt action being taken in the matter, having regard to the fact that the jury at their inquest added to their verdict of found drowned a rider that the attention of the military authorities should be called to the need of more effectively lighting and protecting the wharf?
The circumstances in connection with this very regrettable accident are under investigation and I cannot at present say what steps will be taken, but the hon. Member may rest assured that the matter will receive prompt attention.
Royal Flying Corps
asked whether the hon. Member for Ilkes-ton recently took charge of an Army aeroplane, on which he was a passenger, when in the air, and for which he claimed auto- matic stability, or whether the pilot still exercised foot control?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and the second in the negative.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether these Army aeroplanes are allowed to be controlled by uncertificated pilots, and if there had been an accident can he say who would have been responsible?
There is no control other than steering.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the recent remarks by the late Secretary of State for War on the question of securing automatic stability in aeroplanes; if this question has been considered or dealt with, except in France and Germany; if the Dunne biplane, which has been tested in this country, has, in a large measure, solved the problem of stability in flight; and if the War Office is in possession of the results obtained from this and other experiments?
The question of inherent and automatic stability has also, I am informed, been considered in Austria, the United States, and Great Britain. The Dunne biplane is believed to have a considerable degree of inherent stability. The War Office has information regarding most of the experiments in this direction.
Questions
Supreme Court (New Rules)
asked the Attorney-General when the Draft Rules of the Supreme Court for amending the procedure by or against poor persons (Order XVI., Rules 22–31) are to come into operation; whether any such fund as that referred to in Rule 28 has been created; if so, what is its nature and amount and, if not, how it is proposed the money shall be raised; will the new Rules be available to litigants in the High Court where the sum in dispute is between £20 and £100, and in other actions which are within the County Court jurisdiction; is the existing procedure in forma pauperis in fact available to litigants in the County Courts, and do the County Court judges in practice ever permit litigants to sue in forma pauperis in County Courts; and will the new Rules increase the facilities for poor persons to sue in the County Courts?
As the answer to the Noble Lord's question is necessarily technical and somewhat lengthy, I propose, with his permission, to circulate it with the Votes.
Justices of the Peace (Glamorgan)
asked the Attorney-General whether he can state what has occasioned the further delay in the issue of a new list of justices of the peace for Glamorgan; and whether, in view of the complaints of delay in securing the attendance of magistrates in some divisions of that county, steps will be taken to expedite the formalities incidental to the new appointments?
The list of new magistrates for Glamorganshire has now been settled, and the names will be published this week.
Conviction (Lewes Assizes)
asked the Attorney-General whether he has taken into consideration the facts of a recent case heard in the Court of Criminal Appeal, in which the appeal of a man convicted at the Lewes Assizes was allowed on the ground that the clerk of assize had interfered with the jury; whether he has noted the remarks of the Lord Chief Justice in this case; and what action he proposes to take?
Yes, Sir. The man will not be further prosecuted in respect of this matter.
Will the clerk of assizes who made this mistake be allowed to make mistakes in future? May I press for a reply?
Experiments on Animals
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, as stated in the King's Bench Divisional Court on Monday last, the Home Office have expressed entire satisfaction with the conduct of Dr. Yorke in exposing for several days in an open field a donkey covered with sores, due to experiments made upon it in the laboratory, and only destroying it after complaint had been made to the police in consequence of the swarm of flies observed from the other side of the hedge to be flying about and settling upon the animal; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent other animals being subjected to similar treatment?
The statement reported to have been made in Court that the Home Office had expressed itself as entirely satisfied with Dr. Yorke's conduct was incorrect. I expressed no such view. Careful inquiry was made by me at the time; I saw no ground for differing from the conclusion of the justices, who found that the allegations as to the condition of the animal, which are repeated in the question, were not substantiated, and that the animal was not, in fact, caused unnecessary pain; but I formed the opinion that Dr. Yorke should himself have visited the animal from time to time, and should have satisfied himself by personal inspection that it was being properly cared for, and I have so informed him.
Coal Mines (South Wales)
asked the number of accidents from falls of the roof in the mines in the South Wales coalfield since the National Insurance Act came into force; what percentage of the total accidents the above-mentioned accidents are; whether any of these accidents have involved the occurrence of cystitis or bed-sores; if so, what percentage; and what arrangements have been made for their proper treatment?
The number of persons injured by falls of ground (whether of roof or sides) in the South Wales coalfield during 1913 was 15,772, which is 45 per cent, of the total number for the coalfield. No figures for the present year are yet available. As regards the other matters referred to, I have no information.
Police Inspectors (Pay)
asked what increases in pay have been made in the cases of chief inspectors, sub-divisional inspectors, and divisional inspectors since the beginning of 1905; and the date when such increases were made?
Chief Inspectors.—The pay of this rank was increased on 1st July, 1905, from a fixed rate of 87s. weekly to a scale rising in four years from 87s. to 103s. When the general rise in pay was given on 7th August, 1911, chief inspectors participated, and their maximum is now 108s. weekly.
Sub-Divisional Inspectors.—On the 2nd April, 1906, the maximum pay of this rank was increased from 73s. 6d. to 78s. 6d., and was further advanced on 7th August, 1911, to 82s. 6d.
Divisional Inspectors.—An increase of the maximum pay from 67s. to 70s. was given on 7th August, 1911.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say why the divisional inspectors were not advanced in the same proportion as the higher grades?
I have some doubt on that question.
I will put it down.
asked how many sub-divisional inspectors are in receipt of a special weekly allowance of 5s.; and on what grounds the payment is made; which are the districts in which this arrangement obtains; and whether any corresponding allowance is made to the divisional inspectors in the same districts?
Twenty-three sub-divisional inspectors are in receipt of this special allowance. I can give the names of the sub-divisions if the hon. Member will put down an unstarred question. No corresponding allowance is made to divisional inspectors or to the majority of sub-divisional inspectors. I have already explained, in reply to previous questions, that the allowance is given to certain sub-divisional inspectors whose charge is specially responsible and arduous.
Mines (Amending Bill)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consider the advisability of promoting an amending Mines Bill to deal comprehensively with any reforms in the management of the mines shown to be necessary as a result of inquiries into the recent disasters, rather than of proceeding, as he has thought fit, by way of Regulations issued by the Home Office, in order that the whole of the questions involved, including what safeguards shall or shall not be insisted upon, may be fully thrashed out in a Committee of this House?
I do not think there is any need to have recourse to fresh legislation instead of exercising the express powers conferred on me by Parliament in the Act of 1911. The Act provides for the publication of any Regulations in draft and for the hearing before a referee of any substantial objections raised on behalf either of the owners or the men, and this procedure ensures a thorough investigation of all questions at issue. The matter which will have to be dealt with are of a highly technical character, and can, I think, be more satisfactorily settled by this procedure than by discussion in this House.
Will the right hon. Gentleman introduce a measure?
I have already brought in a Bill.
Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, having regard to the expectations raised in the minds of the fast-diminishing number of teachers who have retired after faithful service to the educational needs of the nation with an inadequate superannuation and who are admitted to be worthy of consideration, he will request the Treasury to make an additional Grant to aid these old State servants?
The Treasury are aware of the circumstances referred to, but I am advised that legislation would be required to increase the benefits of teachers who retired under the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1898, before 1st April, 1912, and I am not in a position to deal with the matter without the consent of the Treasury.
Will the right hon. Gentleman have regard to the Compassionate Fund?
I cannot say more at the present moment.
New Council School, Berriew, Montgomeryshire
asked the President of the Board of Education if he has sanctioned the building of a new council school at Berriew, Montgomeryshire, at a cost of £26 per child; and, if so, how he has satisfied himself that the interests of the ratepayers has been regarded under Section 9 of the Education Act of 1902, seeing that arrangements have been made to build a non-provided school, which would impose no charge upon the rate?
The cost of building the new council school, estimated at about £27 per child, includes the provision of a handicraft and housecraft centre, which the managers of the church school were not prepared to provide. The cost to the rates of building the elementary school apart from the centre is estimated at about £16 per child. Before determining the council school to be necessary I directed a public inquiry to be held and carefully considered all the points to which Section 9 of the Education Act, 1902, requires me to have regard.
Has not the gentleman who held the inquiry reported that the Church people were prepared to build a school, even without the handicraft centre, at £16 a child?
I understand that one individual offered £500.
Budget (Education Rates)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, under the Budget scheme for the relief of rates levied for educational purposes, it is proposed to leave threequarters of the existing total loan charges, the proportion now borne by rural villages in respect of the provision of new schools, as a continuing burden upon such parishes, although possibly necessitous, or whether such charges, both present and prospective, will hereafter be distributed in their entirety over the whole administrative area of the local education authority?
The charges imposed upon parishes by Section 18 of the Education Act of 1902 cannot be removed without legislation, but as I stated on the 18th instant, in reply to the lion. Member for Chelsea, I should like to amend that Section at once if the measure could be regarded by the House as uncontroversial. I would venture to point out that under Section 2 (iii.) (8) of the Finance Bill provision is made that additional Grants for elementary education to county local education authorities may be made on condition that the local education authority arrange to make the rate uniform over its area.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these charges, which are all for national purposes, are becoming an almost intolerable burden in many rural villages?
It is in consequence of that fact that I am prepared to bring in legislation if the House generally assents.
As the House is likely to assent, will the right hon. Gentleman introduce such legislation?
I will communicate through the usual channels to see if legislation can be introduced with general assent.
Post Office Savings Bank
asked the Secretary to the Treasury when the list of securities held by the Post Office Savings Bank on 31st December last will be communicated to this House, either in the Report of the Post Office or in the Annual Parliamentary Paper?
I hope that the Annual Return in continuation of H.C. No. 176 of 1913, will be issued in the course of July.
Donegal County Council (Fishing Industry)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state what, if any, progress has been made in giving the Grants authorised to Buncrana and Rathmullen, Lough Swilly, for piers for the development of the fishing industry; and, seeing that the Donegal County Council have expeditiously done their part, whether he will see that the industry is not checked and handicapped by the delay of the Treasury and the Development Commissioners?
Some delay has taken place in this case owing to the difficulty of the county council in complying with one of the conditions imposed by the Development Commissioners. Measures are now being taken to overcome this difficulty, and I understand that tenders for the work will shortly be invited.
Business of the House
I desire to ask the Prime Minister a question, of which I have given him private notice: Whether, in view of his promise to suspend the Eleven o'clock Rule for the discussion on the Motion for Adjournment on Wednesday, he proposes to adjourn it to-day?
I did not give any promise, although I thought it was a reasonable suggestion; but it is impossible to put down any such Motion to-night.
Can it not be moved without Notice?
Notice must be given of the Motion to suspend the Eleven o'clock Rule.
New Members Sworn
George Robert Harland Bowden, Esquire, for county of Derby (North-Eastern Division).
Francis John Childs Ganzoni, Esquire, for borough of Ipswich.
Orders of the Day
Government of Ireland Bill
Mr. Speaker—Personal Explanation
Before I call upon the Clerk to read the Orders of the Day, I hope that the House will allow me to make one or two observations with regard to what took place upon last Thursday evening. I think it is hardly necessary for me to recall the incidents which occurred, as they are so fresh in the minds of all hon. Members of the House. There are two matters which require some further attention. In the first place, as far as I understood, the demonstration which took place after the Division on the Motion for Adjournment was intended by the Opposition as a protest against being invited to proceed with the discussion on the Home Rule Bill without some further statement being made on the part of the Government in regard to the amending Bill. As I understand now, though I was not aware of it then, the Opposition had some reason to suppose, whether rightly founded or wrongly founded I know not, that a statement would have been made by the Prime Minister. That is the first point, to which I will refer again presently.
The second point is the incident which occurred between the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and myself, and, on reflection, I think I ought to state frankly to the House that I think I was betrayed into using an expression which I ought not to have used on that occasion. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that by the request which I put to him I conveyed some imputation that he was responsible for the demonstration which had taken place. I wish to say frankly that no such idea was in my mind, and if I conveyed such an imputation by the question which I put to him, I am extremely sorry that any such imputation should have been conveyed, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will believe that statement and accept it in the same spirit in which it is made. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will feel, as I feel, that on occasions of that character—of the character that took place last Thursday—the Chair is placed in a difficult position, and has all of a sudden to face some totally unexpected development, and it is not always possible to hit exactly the right way of dealing with it, although I do my best. I feel sure I shall always be able to look to the right hon. Gentleman and to the other Leaders—the responsible Leaders of the parties in this House—for support for the authority of the Chair in maintaining order and in conducting our Debates with all that due decorum and order which has always been traditional in this House, and which, I think, the country expects from it.
Now, I wish to turn again for one moment to the first part of the subject. I do not know whether it would be in the power of the Prime Minister, or whether he would feel justified in replying to a suggestion if I made it—and I will make the suggestion—and that is that the Prime Minister should, if he can see his way to do it, give some further information to the House with regard to the amending Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "No! "] If he does not see fit to give any further information, that is a matter entirely for him. He will remember that, I think, as far as I know, the only authoritative announcement so far made was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—I think on the 12th of May—and if the Prime Minister can see his way either to amplify or to confirm that statement. I think it would go some way towards satisfying the views of those who think we ought not to proceed any further with the discussion on the Third Reading of the Bill without some further statement. I leave the matter there. I do not know whether the Prime Minister is prepared to make any statement or not. I simply throw out the suggestion.
I think it will be sufficient if I say that I am personally deeply grateful to you, Sir, for the generous statement which you have just made to the House, a statement which has been listened to, I am sure, by everyone with respect and even with admiration. Such a statement as you have made could only, be made, if I may venture respectfully to say so, by one who is conscious of his strength, a strength which in your case, Sir, is derived not only from the high office which you fill, but from the knowledge that in the exercise of the duties of that office during many years you have secured, and now enjoy, the complete confidence of the whole House of Commons. You have spoken, Sir, of the difficulties of the Chair, and I am sure that every Member of the House realises how arduous always, how difficult often, are the duties which devolve upon the Speaker, and, Sir, those difficulties are incomparably greater at a time when, as at present, passion runs high and party feeling is unusually bitter and resentful. I am sure that I speak not only for myself, not only for the party which I represent, but for the whole House when I say that in facing those difficulties you have won not only the respect, but the personal regard of every Member of the House of Commons. As regards the general subject to which you have referred, I may perhaps later have an opportunity of referring to it. All that I desire to say now is that it will always be my endeavour, so far as possible, to support the dignity of the Chair so worthily filled by you.
4.0 P.M.
Mr. Speaker, I shall say nothing with regard to the—if I may so call it—personal aspect of the matter, beyond associating myself—and, with myself, I am sure, all those on whose behalf I am entitled to speak—with the well-merited tribute which the Leader of the Opposition has paid to the impartiality and the dignity with which you preside over our proceedings; with the testimony which he has borne to the universal respect which is felt in every quarter of the House; and with the wish and the hope that in the discharge of your most responsible duties in a time of difficulty and stress you may rely m the future, as I think you have been able to rely in the past, upon the co-operation of the leaders of ail sections of thought and opinion in this House. Sir, you have added to what I have called the personal aspect of the matter, I will not say an appeal, but a suggestion to myself. I need not say that any suggestion coming from the Chair, and from you, is one to which in any circumstances I should feel bound to respond.
I do not know upon what ground it is suggested that I had entered into any undertaking, express or implied, direct or indirect, to say more on Thursday with regard to the intentions of the Government as to the amending Bill than had been said before. I am not aware of any ground for any such impression; but since you have made the suggestion to me, I think it right and proper, with respect to you and to the House, to summarise, as I can do in two or three sentences, the statements which I think have been already made, or, if not made in express terms, clearly indicated on the part of the Government. It is our intention that the amending Bill shall give effect to the terms of agreement, if, as we still hope—I have not abandoned the hope—such an agreement may be arrived at; and if, at the time of its introduction in another place, no agreement has been reached, it will, as was stated more than once most clearly by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with my complete assent, in the course of the Debate on Tuesday, the 12th of this month, embody the substance of the proposals outlined by me on behalf of the Government on the 8th March, in the hope and with the object that, after discussion and consideration, an agreement may be attained.
Order read for resuming adjourned Debate on Question [21st May] "That the Bill be now read the third time."
Question again proposed. Debate resumed.
Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has just made a very conciliatory speech. That we are accustomed to that from him I readily acknowledge; but he has not altered in any respect the essential factors of the situation, and what he has just said has, in my opinion, made it still more improper that we should part for the last time with the Home Rule Bill until we know what shape the amending Bill is going to take. Conciliatory speeches are useless, and worse than useless, unless they are accompanied by considerate, or at least, reasonable action; and in the few remarks which I intend to address to the House I shall show, or at least, I shall endeavour to show, that the action of the Government is altogether unreasonable. It is impossible in taking up the Debate which was begun on Thursday not to refer to what happened then. We all recognise that Mr. Speaker has always the right, and it may often be his duty, when disorder arises to appeal for support to the Leader of the party from which that disorder comes. Such appeals have been made in the past. One such appeal was made in my own experience when the position of parties in this House was reversed. On that occasion the then Leader of the Opposition did not find it possible, as you who were in the Chair will remember, to make an appeal to his own followers; he appealed instead to the Leader of the House of Commons. We have made such an appeal to the Prime Minister. I should make it again, were it not that I know it would be useless, for this reason: that the conditions under which the right hon. Gentleman is content to hold his great office make it impossible for him to respond to any such appeal. I do not intend to follow the precedent which was then set. I do propose to appeal, and to appeal earnestly, to my hon. Friends behind me.
But before I make that appeal, I feel bound to say a few words in regard to the situation in which the House of Commons finds itself. Xo one who has been for any length of time a Member of this House, who is proud of its history and its traditions, can like disorder; and from the nature of the case, it must be disliked most of all by those Members who, like myself, from the nature of their position, are compelled to make frequent claims upon the patience of the House of Commons. But if anyone in this House or out of it imagines that the glory of the House of Commons in the past in the way in which its Debates have been conducted—if he imagines that that tradition has been preserved or can be preserved simply by the action of the minority—if he thinks that that great tradition can be preserved by the minority's acquiescing always in whatever course is taken by the majority, then he shows great ignorance of human nature and great ignorance of the history of the House of Commons. The tradition of the House of Commons has been due in part to the action of minorities and to their self-restraint; but it has been due to a still greater extent to the forbearance and to the sense of justice and fair play which Mr. Gladstone said can always be relied upon on the part of the majority. The sense of justice and fair play, Mr. Speaker! The Prime Minister has placed upon the minority in this House a strain which no minority could stand. Through the whole of this Parliament encroachments continual upon the privileges and the rights of the minority have been made every Session—and, indeed, every month— with increasing ruthlessness. And, Sir, if the conditions which now prevail in the House of Commons were to be permanent, our Parliamentary institutions as we have known them in the past could not be preserved, and as we know them now would not be worth preserving.
The climax has been reached in the way in which the Third Beading of this Bill is taken. I do ask hon. Members opposite for a moment, if they can, to consider what they would think of the procedure of the Government if they were Members of the minority, or if they were even impartial observers with no party bias. What is the position? The Government are to-day asking the House of Commons to give a final verdict upon the Irish policy of the Government when the House does not know what that policy is. It is admitted that this Bill does not represent the final policy of the Government, and yet we are asked to give a blank cheque to enable them, if they choose, to carry this and nothing else. And, Mr. Speaker, what is the necessity for this course? It is admitted that it is only owing to the Parliament Act that such a course is adopted. If the Bill were going through under any other terms—[HoN. MEMBERS: "It could not!"]—the Amendment would be considered in the usual way. In my belief the course which the Government are adopting is as absurd, and as inherently unjust, as if in the ordinary course they were to ask the House to assent to the Third Reading of a Bill and then to set up a Committee to examine the contents of that Bill. And, Sir, what makes this outrage—as I regard it—all the more intolerable is, that we believe—and I doubt if there is a Member in this House who in his heart dis- agrees from me—that this course is being adopted by the Government, not because they themselves think it right or proper, but because it is dictated to them by a section of the House which is quite content with the Bill as it stands, which would prevent, if it could, any alteration in the Bill as it stands. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the position. What can the Opposition do? I have ventured to suggest to my hon. Friends behind me what I think is the best course, and it is a course which I earnestly hope they will adopt. It is obvious that under such circumstances we cannot discuss the Third Beading of this Bill. It would not only be futile; it would be ridiculous.
What I urge is that so far as we are concerned, we should allow the thing to end and the Division to be taken without the interposition of delay on our part. Let the curtain ring down, and the sooner the better! It is a farce; and I think a contemptible farce! I would make this appeal to my hon. Friends with all the more confidence, because, though it is the end of an act, it is not the end of the play. The Government have the power— we never doubted it—to carry their Bill through Parliament. But there their power ends. By the way in which they have tyrannised over the minority in this House, and by the way in which they have attempted—[Interruption]—and perhaps still mean to attempt to ride roughshod, not over the minority, but over the majority of the people of this country, they have deprived the House of Commons of all influence and themselves of all moral authority. The final act in this drama will be played, not in the House of Commons, but in the country, and there it will not be a farce. It is to the people that we appeal. When the Government have got into such a position that they find it impossible to obtain a seat for a Cabinet Minister—and for a Cabinet Minister whose duties make it essential that he should be in the House of Commons—when we have reached that stage, it must be evident, even to the most blind, that the appeal to the final tribunal is not far off.
I shall not interpose, save for a very few moments, between the House and a Division, if the right hon. Gentleman thinks it right that we should now take the Third Reading of this Bill. He is very compassionate to me in regard to my own personal position. He seems to think I am the slave—[HON. MEMBERS: "So you are!"]—of taskmasters over whom I have no power of control. Sir, I hold my office by the consent, and as, I believe, with the confidence, of the majority of the House of Commons. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Go to the country!"] So long as I can make that claim—[HoN. MEMBERS: "You cannot! "]—I desire no better title to its tenure. The right hon. Gentleman has enlarged upon the unparalleled outrages and oppression to which the minority in the House of Commons have been subjected during the-years in which we have held power. Can the right hon. Gentleman for a moment, retrospectively or prospectively, put himself in the position of a minority belonging to this party sitting at that side of the-House before, the Parliament Act passed? If this Bill, which we are now going to-read the third time in this third Session—[HON. MEMBERS: "The three-card" trick!" and "Give it them!"]—after it has had nine readings, upon seven of which there was the fullest opportunity for Debate—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh! "]—hon. Gentlemen opposite would not take advantage of it!—if this Bill, which, as I say, has been substantially unchanged, which has been before the House now for three Sessions, and which is now for the third time going to be read the third time—if this Bill had been introduced by the party opposite and carried by a majority of one in this House two years ago, it would have taken its place upon the-Statute Book. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why do not you reform the House of Lords? "I These are the people who talk about the oppression of minorities!
There is not a man who sits beside me on this bench who, in the Parliament which ended in the year 1905, had not clearly and vividly engraven upon his-memory cases of legislation, novel, never submitted to the electorate, condemned* by them on the first occasion on which they had the opportunity of pronouncing their opinion, passed through this House in the course of a single Session, and become, with the assent of the Chamber at the other end of the corridor, at once the law of the land. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Preamble!" and "Debt of honour!"]; All this indignation—I do not say it is simulated at all—arises from a want of imagination, and in the case, I am afraid, of a number of hon. Gentlemen whom I see opposite, from a want of actual experience of what the Liberal party has had to undergo when it was in a minority in this. House. I think it necessary, in reply to the right hon. Gentleman, to point out these very simple and elementary facts. They do not depend upon rhetoric. They are recorded in history. It is because for the first time we have—very imperfectly! I admit—redressed the standing balance of injustice that for two generations past made the Liberal party as an instrument of policy, and Liberal policy as a principle in legislation, to a large extent futile and ineffective; because that balance has for the first time been imperfectly but substantially redressed that we now see the attitude and listen to the language which the right hon. Gentleman has addressed to us. I have only one more word to say. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Something about Ipswich!" and "The debt of honour!"] If this Bill goes through to-night to another place, we intend, as I have said, not because we think the Bill a bad or imperfect Bill, but "because we are anxious—and what patriotic man, to whatever party he belongs, could fail to be anxious—to secure something like acquiescence and peace, we shall produce, as I have already said, our amending proposals.
If time permit, I suppose?
They are put forward in that spirit, and with that object, and for no other reason. As I said the other day, and as I repeat to-night, when our amending proposals are submitted elsewhere, and subjected—as I dare say they will be—to amendment, amplification, and possibly transformation, they will come back here to this House, and this House will have, as it ought to have, the final and determining word in this controversy.
I am sorry to be obliged for a very few minutes to stand between the House and an immediate Division, but, notwithstanding the collapse of the Debate—indeed, probably all the more on that account—it is not possible for us on behalf of those whom we represent in this House to avoid giving some expression of opinion as to the wholly altered condition in which this Bill is presented for Third Reading. The Prime Minister has done all that eloquence and ingenuity could do to put the best face upon the transaction, but I must own that this strategy of secrecy in this House as to the amending Bill, upon the pretext of tenderness for the feelings of the House of Lords, is in my humble opinion an in- defensible course. It is not quite straight dealing either with Ireland or with England, but I am firmly convinced that the Prime Minister has been driven to that policy of secrecy and mystification in reference to so vital a matter, and I am convinced it is because the course suggested by his own judgment has been made impossible for him. I cannot help thinking that this course and policy of resurrecting the House of Lords as a sort of electioneering bogey somehow conveys tome the impression of the last throw by a rather desperate gambler. The game, as far as Ireland is concerned, was lost on the day that the hon. and learned Member for Waterford and his Friends consented to the partition of Ireland. That is a fact that will never be forgotten for them, and will not easily be forgiven to them in the years to come. All that has happened since is a consequence of the policy of first bitterly opposing any genuine concession to Ulster at the right time and then consenting to a concession of all others, which will not only fail to conciliate Ulster, but will rouse millions of the Irish race to resentment and revolt against this Bill, and, indeed, against the British party politicians of all parties. Sir, the object of this strategy is to me quite clear. It is simply to put off the inevitable evil day of disillusion for unfortunate Ireland and to enable the hon. and learned Member for Waterford to go on bragging that some tremendous victory for Ireland is won by a ghastly farce of this kind of thing.
The hon. and learned Member the other night caused some little excitement by a; statement which, if it meant anything at all, meant that the technical passage of this Bill on Third Beading will be the realisation of all the glorious hopes of Ireland's glorious freedom, for which he told us he and his fathers had made such sacrifices. I should like to be in a position to cross-examine him as to where exactly this victory for Ireland's freedom comes in. Why as far as getting to the Third Beading, of the Bill is concerned, we had got as far as the final passage of Home Rule through this House twenty-one years ago, and we got thus far in spite of the bitter hostility of the hon. Member for Waterford—to a far more generous Home Rule Bill of Mr. Gladstone than, the Bill of to-day! To-night the Prime Minister has confessed that this Bill is only the first instalment, and that the second instalment will nullify the first in its most vital principle, like the Preamble that never came off. Here we have a Bill the postscript of which is the most important, because it will reduce the whole thing to chaos. Any Bill that cuts Ulster off from the body of Ireland, temporarily or permanently, is, in my opinion, worse than nothingness, and I think you will so find. The hon. and learned Member the other night spoke as if the technical passage of this Bill will be a joy-day for Ireland as a nation. Sir, it will be, on the contrary, one of the grossest frauds that ever were perpetrated. It will be very little short of a cruel practical joke at the expense of the intelligence of the Irish people, as well as of their feelings. They will have the cup of liberty presented to their lips by this Bill, but on condition that their lips must never touch it. They will be presented with a Bill the first Clause of which declares that all Ireland will henceforth be governed by an Irish Parliament, and this lying statement is merely enacted in order to be repealed. If this Bill ever becomes an Act, it will be borne with a rope round its neck. It is not intended for anything. It is, on the contrary, repudiated by its authors. It blots out the name of Irish nationality.
The difference between the party that sits behind us and ourselves, is that we readily offer almost any conceivable concession to Ulster that would have the effect of uniting Ireland, but we will struggle to our last breadth against a proposal that will divide her, and divide her eternally if Ireland through her own representatives once consents. I have no doubt the hon. and learned Member is entitled to boast that the Irish people have been trustful, but they have been trustful to the very verge of tragedy, because the masses of the Irish people have been kept in still more tragic ignorance of the very A B C of the situation by a corrupt Press. I call a newspaper corrupt which has given six-
teen officials to the Government. The hon. and learned Member may boast, but there are limits even to the gullibility of the poor people who solemnly believe him, when he assured them that there is no longer an Ulster difficulty, and that the Ulster obstacle to Home Rule was gone the day that the Parliament Act was passed. His promises are being exposed already. If you pass this Bill without the amending or rather repealing Bill, it will be a farce too great for words, because you know you cannot enforce it until you have got 40,000 or 50,000 rifles out of the hands of the Ulster Volunteers, and everybody, I hope, even the First Lord of the Admiralty, now know that that is a practical impossibility. Even if it were otherwise, your beating down of Ulster would be a disastrous blow. On the other hand, if you only pass this Bill at practically the same time at which you pass the amending Bill, destroying it in its most vital principles well, then, let us drop this canting pretext that you are really satisfying the national claims and aspirations of Ireland by splitting the country up into two rival and hostile States, when you will have not less than three minorities in a state of discontent and anger and revolt instead of as at present one minority. You have the power to pass this Bill to amuse the people whom you so stupidly take to be all children, but you know the passage of this Bill does not mean business. So long as this Bill is clogged, as the Prime Minister admits it is clogged, with this amending Bill for the partition of Ireland, so long in our opinion it will not be a Home Rule Bill, but a Bill for the murder of Home Rule as we understand it, and we will have neither hand, act, or part in it.
Question put, the third time: "That the Bill be now read the third time."
The House divided: Ayes, 351; Noes, 274.
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whitsuntide Recess
The New England Company
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn until Tuesday, 9th June."—[ The prime Minister. ]
:I rise in accordance with a promise have given to various people interested in a matter of some public importance, to call attention to the position of the New England Company. This is a class of charity of which there are a great number, and they are ancient charities, which in the course of time have undergone considerable change owing to the changing conditions—
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I wish to know whether a discussion on the New England Company is in order on the Motion for the Adjournment?
:I submit, Mr. Speaker, that -that is no point of Order at all. There has "been on the Notice Paper for some weeks past a Motion with regard to this subject, which has now been withdrawn in order that might raise the question on this occasion, and if the Noble Lord opposite had given attention to his Order Paper he would have seen that the facts were quite sufficient to justify some attention being drawn to this subject have called the attention of the representative of the Charity Commissioners to this subject, and he has kindly consented to reply to my remarks I think I must assume that it is a matter of public importance and one which justifies some attention being given to it. Now, Mr. Speaker, have called attention before to this matter in this House during the course of this Session have done so by means of questions on two specific cases as to the way in which the charity, which was originally undenominational or purely voluntary, had been diverted by a series of steps to the exclusive use of the Church of England called attention last Session to the way in which certain large Endowments in Oxford, given for purely educational purposes without any denominational test at all, have been devoted to the Church of England, and added in many cases to the Endowments of the Church revenues.I called attention, by way of questions, to a charity in Lancaster which was given for educational purposes only and has now been transferred for the purposes of Church schools called attention to a similar case in Essex. Now, this case of the New England Company is in my opinion a very clear and a very flagrant case. In the year 1649 the New England Company was founded by an Ordinance of the Long Parliament. It was founded in order to support the propagation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, according to the words of the Ordinance, in the New England Colonies, and a large amount of money was subscribed by private individuals for that purpose. No less a sum than £11,000 was collected and invested in land in order that this company might have funds which it might use for religious and philanthropic purposes in New England. It is quite obvious that the persons who subscribed this money in 1649 in the time of the Long Parliament would be either Puritans or favourably disposed to the Puritan religion, and as a matter of fact they were all, as far as one can trace those who gave money for this purpose, either Presbyterians or Independents. Now they were told by their Ordinance to act through Commissioners, and the Commissioners who were appointed to act in the New England Colony were undoubtedly all of them Independents or Presbyterians, or those who, like the members of the Calvinistic Church in France, were closely related to the Presbyterian movement in these islands.
In the year 1662, after the Restoration, the Ordinance was altered to this extent, that an incorporation was passed and a charter was given by which the funds in the command of the New England Company were transferred legally to a new company, but actually to the same parties with the addition of one or two other persons. In 1662 a company for the propagation of the Gospel in New England, and the parts adjacent in America, was founded. Of course, after the Restoration there was a change in the direction of matters, more weight having been given to the point of view of the Church of England, but in the year 1662 we find the whole of this property of the New England Company, which had been given originally by Independents and Presbyterians without any doctrinal test or basis, transferred to a society which was originally in part consisting of members of the Church of England and in part consisting of Presbyterians and Independents, and there is no doubt that originally and until the date the new company was founded in 1662 the work of the company was purely undenominational. Though no doubt the governing body in this country was very largely Church of England, yet they worked amicably with Independents and Presbyterians. The Commissioners through whom they worked in America were entirely Puritans—that is, either Independents or Presbyterians—and in no case, as far as we can trace the history of the company, were the first Commissioners through whom the society had to work members of the Church of England at all.
I do not propose to carry the history of this company through its various stages. I will only point out that at the present time the governors of this company are entirely members of the Church of England, that they refuse to admit anyone who is not a member of the Church of England to become a governor, and that the whole of their money is given to the Church of England objects.
I do not see the relevancy of this historical retrospect. What branch of the Government does the hon. Member blame?
I am calling attention to these facts in order that the Charity Commissioner who answers in this House for the Charity Commissioners may give me a reply, and as he has gone into the facts, and is prepared to do so, I think it would be proper for me just to refer to the facts.
What have the Charity Commissioners got to do with it? What have they done in this matter to which the hon. Member objects?
I have not gone fully into the relations between the Charity Commissioners and the New England Company, because I was anxious to make my remarks as short as possible, but I can do so if it is necessary.
I think it is. In order that the hon. Member may have a locus standi in this Debate he must show that they have committed some offence or promulgated an improper scheme, or done something which they should not have done. Otherwise the whole story has no relevance to anything we are concerned with here at all.
Would it not be proper if they left something undone which it was their duty to do?
If the hon. Member can show they have any power to deal with a company of that kind. The hon. Member must remember they have only power to deal with a charity through powers regulated by Statute.
Very well. It is quite obvious from the history of this case that the Commissioners have some authority in the matter.
Will the hon. Member show what authority? Will he quote the Section of the Statute? I happen to know something about it, because I was a, Charity Commissioner some years ago.
That is a very good proof that the Charity Commissioners have a great deal to do with the charity.
On the contrary, that is exactly what I am asking the hon. Member to prove.
This matter has been frequently before the Charity Commissioners and has been brought to their notice by way of correspondence, and they have always answered the correspondence on this matter to my knowledge, as I have had the correspondence before me. I do not suppose they would take the trouble to go into a long correspondence in this matter unless they had a locus standi .
Perhaps the correspondence goes to disclaim any authority over the charity?
Not so far as I have seen, and I have seen a great deal of it.
Will the hon. Member confine himself to the point, and show what the Charity Commissioners have done which they ought not to do? He must deal with the powers of the Charity Commissioners.
I will just mention the two points in which I think the Charity Commissioners have not done what they ought to have done, and, first of all, they might have an inquiry into the administration of this charity, which I have shown is administered in a way quite opposed to its original intent, and for objects quite different to those which its original donors had intended. In the first place I think they might have given a public inquiry into the matter, and they have failed to do so. In the next place they might have insisted that the Governors should admit amongst their number persons who were not members of the Church of England. Many believe that that would be right, and in fact I understand, though I have not got the means of proving it, that they have already suggested in one way or another that such should be done. I believe the matter is of such a nature that there should be some public inquiry or public statement that these funds which now carry on the charity should not be applied to purposes totally different from the point of view of those who originally founded and endowed this charity. In conclusion I will only thank you, Mr. Speaker, and the House, for having listened to me in dealing with the matter which I consider is one of great importance, and I am sorry to have detained the House at this time when everyone wants to get away for their holidays, but the matter is one which I personally could not have allowed to pass without feeling that I had neglected my duty.
I will detain the House a few moments only. The question is really indicated in the desire to have an inquiry into this Charity. I will not go into the history of the Charity. The point is actually this—that the Charity Commissioners have no objection to an inquiry if the hon. Member or his Friends allege maladministration of the Charity. With regard to the legal points they believe that legally this Charity is a Church Charity, and that the Charity is properly managed by the majority of its members, and if the majority of its members are members of the Church of England, they are entitled to do so, or they might put on Nonconformists if they chose. Therefore so far as they are concerned, the Charity Commissioners do not see their way to undertaking an inquiry into the legal position. On the other hand, if the hon. Member suggests that some inquiry ought to be made, the proper thing to do would be for his friends to go to the Courts of Law. For that they would, of course, require the consent of the Charity Commission, and that body would be quite ready to grant it. If, however, the hon. Member alleges general maladministration of the Charity—which I do not believe—then the Charity Commission would be quite willing to hold an inquiry. But on the legal side of the question it is quite impossible for them to do so.
Dublin Strikes
I want to put a question to the Chief Secretary for Ireland with regard to the persons who were guilty of police excesses in Dublin. I want to know what steps have been taken to trace them, whether the steps have been successful, and whether any punishment in any degree has been meted out to any person. My right hon. Friend will remember that the Report admitted that certain excesses had taken place, and he promised that the Irish Office would do its best to trace the offenders and bring them to justice. I wish to know whether the inquiry has been successful?
The hon. Member is correct in what he says. The Report did indicate that certain members of the police force—whether they belonged to the Royal Irish Constabulary or to the Dublin Metropolitan Police was not known—did destroy in an unnecessary manner property in the houses to which they had gone in search of disturbers, and I promised there should toe inquiry on that subject. That disciplinary inquiry has been held, but the Report, although it has reached me, has not yet been published. It will be held over because there are proceedings pending against a possible offender, and until that case has been adjudicated upon by the Courts obviously it would be improper to publish the Report. But I will do so as soon as it can be done. There has been very great difficulty indeed in identifying the names of offenders, but when my hon. Friend sees the Report I think he will be satisfied with it so far as justice is concerned. At any rate, I can assure him that the investigation has been of a very searching nature.
Land Purchase (Ireland)
I desire to call attention on this occasion, there being no other, to the administration of the Land Purchase Acts in Ireland and the failure of the Chief Secretary to proceed with his Bill with a view to accelerating the completion of land purchase. The transfer of the ownership of land in Ireland from one class to another by means of public money is a transaction so far-reaching that it is of the utmost importance, not only to the parties immediately concerned, but to all who on the purchasers' failure become liable, that the prices should be just. Short of our national question, the land question is the greatest, and until it is settled on safe terms nothing will be settled. Since every increase of burden put upon purchasers increases the danger of their insolvency, and the ratepayers of town and country are liable for the whole amount of the annuities in arrear, it is to the direct interest of all classes that land purchase should be completed with the least possible delay and that the prices should be fair. The tenants have been deterred from building and from draining and otherwise improving their farms by the fear, or rather the certainty, that their rents would be increased on their improvement. For this reason most farms in Ireland stand in need of these delayed improvements; as soon as the tenants after purchasing can safely carry them out they will get a reasonable chance of living on' their farms with success. These improvements cannot be carried out without money. If, by agreeing to exorbitant prices, for the sake of getting rid of the landlords, the tenant deprives himself of the means of carrying out the necessary improvements on his farm to the best advantage, the danger of failure is increased. So long as the rent and not the actual value of the farm forms the basis for calculating prices, rent-fixing is the very heart of the land question, instead of being negligible and obsolete, as the Chief Secretary used to think.
The Government differs from us in this important respect. If they have a real desire for rapid sales at fair prices, as they profess to have, they have the power to attain their object by administration without any fresh legislation at all. Everybody in Ireland knows, and the Chief Secretary himself knows, that the Land Commissioners fix rents, high or low, as previously decided upon in Dublin Castle according to the exigencies of the Government of the1 day, and never by impartial judgment. The Chief Secretary will be well advised not to attempt to deny this fact, which is notorious to everybody in Ireland, if he cares to retain any of the little credit remaining to him in Ireland. No one will deny the importance and urgency of completing land purchase as soon as possible. We have-heard the Chief Secretary in this House declare it to be more important and more urgent than Home Rule itself. Apparently that was an exaggeration for no other purpose than to raise hopes that he was at last going to settle this question—hopes which he chilled by doing more than any other man to check land purchase, and1 which he now without scruple finally disappoints in order to serve the purpose of himself and of his party. No one could have recognised more fully than the Chief Secretary that it was his duty at the earliest possible moment to introduce and press forward, until it found a place on the Statute Book, a Bill for the completion of land purchase in the shortest possible time. What has he done towards that end? Absolutely nothing He has done even worse, because his Act of 1909 has proved in practice, as he has been forced reluctantly to admit, the greatest blow the policy of land purchase ever sustained. He introduced a fresh Bill last Session, and the same Bill this Session, but he admits that he has no intention of proceeding further with it. In other words, the Bill is admitted to be a sham—a party job for tactical purposes meant to deceive the people of Ireland whom he asks to trust him. The thing would be ridiculous were it not so tragical and treacherous. It amounts to this, forsooth, that until the Clanricardes, who still curse large areas in Ireland, overcome their anti-popular prejudices, and voluntarily consent to do what the law for the last ten years has enabled them to do without loss—until they tell him what sort of Bill they would like, he will leave the unfortunate tenants without redress. It is another illustration of the old policy of the Government and the landlords.
Where would the Irish people have been to-day if such a ridiculous doctrine had been entertained in the past? Is anybody silly enough to suppose that the Irish landlords would have agreed in advance to the Land Act of 1881—the basis of a long series of Acts—or that the Houses of Parliament would have passed it if it had to wait until the landlords had consented to it in advance? Everybody who has any knowledge on the subject knows that that Act was passed, not with the consent of the landlords, but in obedience to Michael Davitt and the Land League. Notwithstanding all the Land Acts that have been passed, notwithstanding the number of times this House has been assured that it was dealing finally with the land question, every defect pointed out by the Irish Members in those Acts has proved in the working to be real, and to that extent the Acts have been failures. The most recent instance is the Bill introduced by the present Chief Secretary in 1908 and enacted in 1909. As everybody connected with land in Ireland knows, what is really required is universal compulsory sale of all tenanted land and the distribution of all ranches on fair terms. Nothing short of that can possibly succeed. The Chief Secretary professed to have that object at heart, but he introduced and got Parliament to pass a Bill which could not accomplish that object. Compulsion of some sort, legal or illegal, being obviously necessary, we were bound to amend the Bill for that purpose. Baffled in that, we were bound to support statutory compulsion in whatever form we could get it. What the Chief Secretary chose to call compulsion has proved in the working to be the merest sham, and he himself, seeing what his duty was, must have known that it could not have proved otherwise.
The further Bill introduced last Session and again this Session confers only a similar lame, limited, ineffective compulsion, amounting to nothing more than a false pretence. The Government newspapers in Ireland, in expectation of jobs for their writers, carefully concealed this defect from the public. They will not embarrass the Government, but they have no scruple in conniving at what will embarrass the people of Ireland later on. The Bill is defective in every respect. Instead of applying compulsion to the Clanricarde breed, it offers them inducements at the expense of the purchasing tenant. In effect it offers them rewards for resisting the law, and the result is that the Birrell purchasers, as they are called, will always pay more than their neighbours, the Wyndham purchasers, and they, in turn, pay more than the Ashbourne purchasers. The landlords who resist longest and extract exorbitant rents at all times will end by getting bigger prices than the other landlords. That appears to be the Chief Secretary's idea of justice.
To anyone who really cares about this matter, three facts are plain: First, that immediate universal compulsory sale is necessary; secondly, that the Chief Secretary's Bill, if enacted as introduced, would not accomplish that; and, thirdly, that since the Irish Parliament will have no power over land purchase, and this is the last Session in which a full Irish representation will be here, the problem ought to be settled this Session. The Chief Secretary saw clearly that his Bill could not do what he professed it would do, for he talked, when introducing it, of the Imperial Parliament passing a compulsory Bill at some indefinite future date after his Bill had failed. What authority has the Chief Secretary, or could he have, for pledging in advance the Imperial Parliament to pass a particular law for Ireland at a future date, when he may be in another place and the Irish representation in this House will be less than half what it is at present? Such a pledge in the circumstances could not possibly have been honest. There is far more probability in the forecast of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs that after the Irish Members have been got rid of and sent off to Ireland to attend to their own business, the British Parliament will very rarely indeed trouble itself about Ireland. We all hope that will be the case, because it will be best for both countries, provided that this important and urgent land question is settled now this Session while we are here. The present Session is the time, and the only time, for dealing with the Irish land question thoroughly and finally. As you have in the past, in spite of us while we were here, there is no reason for supposing that you will not in the future, in any dealings you have with regard to Ireland, err and err seriously. After this Session there is not the remotest chance of land legislation here of the slightest use to Ireland. The tendency of this Parliament is in the opposite direction.
The situation in Ireland is absolutely intolerable. Notwithstanding all the Acts that have been passed, a number of tenants still remain under the landlords' heels, paying rack rents, side by side with neighbours who are rapidly becoming purchasers under the Ashbourne Act or gradually under the Wyndham Act. Ireland can never be, and ought not to be content until that situation has been brought to an end, and all working farmers placed on an equal footing in that respect. From the point of view of morals and principle the neglect of the evicted tenants is the greatest blot on the administration of the Land Purchase Acts and most discreditable to the Government. Parliament has repeatedly passed laws for the relief of evicted tenants or their representatives as an obviously essential part of the settlement of the Irish land question, yet, for some technical reasons, hundreds of these unfortunate people remain without deriving any benefit whatever from those laws, although their right to benefit is fully admitted. Red tape prevents redress, while those who apply the red tape draw large salaries from public funds. This policy of preventing justice by quibbles and trickery, which leaves evicted tenants to melt by the roadside is a sin against God and man and a disgrace to the Government that stoops to it, while providing with homes persons having no moral or statutory title whatever to them. Many of these evicted families comprise the real heroes of the Land War, men who sacrificed their homes on principle and for the common good in order to force upon the Statute Book those beneficent laws for which different Governments now claim credit. What could be more disgraceful than that in the administration of those Acts the very people whose sacrifices won them are denied the benefit of them?
If this Session is allowed to pass without settling this question, only two courses will remain open to the people whose lives and fortunes depend upon its being settled; they must either allow themselves to be wiped out of their native land which needs their services, or they must institute a fresh violent agitation, violent enough to pull down the ruins of landlordism with a crash, doing, it may be, some damage in the process. Everyone in Ireland who has come to the use of reason, and is not silenced by the prospect of a job, knows that violent agitation is the only thing you respect and to which you submit. If we were disposed to forget this invariable teaching of the past, our folly should be corrected by your surrender to violence at the present day. I myself, seven years ago, by simply pointing out to landless young men that while they had no alternative but the emigrant ship, the land that was morally theirs was devoted to fattening the bullocks of moneylenders for English markets, easily succeeded, as the Chief Secretary knows, in getting large numbers of them to adopt the admirable policy of cattle-driving, of which I am proud, and which, if party pressure had not been applied, would have cleared the country of the ranchers—the curse of Ireland—in a single year. The counter-policy of the Chief Secretary's friends was embodied in their cry, "Give Birrell a chance." Unfortunately, the chance was given, and, like every other chance given to a British Minister in Ireland, it was used against the people who gave it, and in practice proved to be a chance for the Minister and a chance for the landlords, graziers and grabbers, and the emigrant ship for the landless dupes. Many of the dupes have gone and the right hon. Gentleman remains. He will probably believe me when I say that I would prefer to have the young men in Ireland. I say here and now, solemnly and seriously, that although the Chief Secretary has by that trick succeeded in thinning our ranks, it would be prudent for him to take care whether he is right in assuming that we are broken beyond recovery, and that the resources of agitation are exhausted. If the Chief Secretary fails to do this Session what he knows and admits to be his duty in this matter, he may easily live to learn that tenants have at their disposal, and so far unused, a very simple and effective method of beating the landlord and the Government combine. He may easily learn also that young men still remaining in the neighbourhood of ranches could very easily spoil them by ploughing them up or ploughing up great belts in the best parts of them, and not allowing a beast to graze on them a day longer. We shall then see if he will dare to do to these young men what he is too cowardly to do to the gunrunners of Ulster.
The speech of the hon. Member, so far as it was concerned with the policy of land purchase, dealt with a subject of the greatest importance. So far as it dealt personally with me, I think it does not deserve that title. He quoted me as expressing the opinion—to which I entirely adhere—that no more important question is possible at the present moment in Ireland than the completion of the great agrarian revolution which has already been successfully carried out over the greater part of the country and over more than one-half of its entire acreage. There I entirely agree with him. But when he complains that we are not at this moment or have not been during the past week or two of the Session concerned with the details of the Land Bill which I introduced last Session and have reintroduced this Session, I really think he does not display that Parliamentary knowledge which I know him to possess, because he must recognise, as well as I do, that it is perfectly impossible, having regard to the state of public business and the important questions that are before this House, to expect the House to give the time and the close attention which such a complicated measure demands unless there has been first some obviously ascertained measure of agreement upon its main and most contentious principles. In saying that I could not undertake to carry that Land Bill of mine in this Session unless there was such a measure of assent among all parties concerned, I meant Irish landlords are interested, the Irish tenants are interested, the Irish Members are interested, and the British taxpayer is interested, and I cannot get rid, even if I wished to do so, of the criticisms, sometimes severe and always very close, of all those contending parties. The hon. Member is very fond of adjuring me as if I were the custodian of the British Treasury, and he complains most bitterly, as other people have done, that I destroyed land purchase in Ireland.
That is so.
I know that is his belief. I am rather glad there are people who still believe it, because there are a great many discreditable things said about me which are true, and it is most gratifying that there should be one or two discreditable things said of me which I know to be untrue. I should, therefore, be rather sorry if they disappeared altogether from the scene of Debate and left me face to face with the disagreeable truth which may be said against me. The hon. Member knows as well as I do that the financial provisions of the great and most beneficial Act of 1902 had. owing to the fall in stock, completely broken down, and when I appeared upon the scene, unfortunate man, at the very moment when it had broken down, unless it had come to the relief of that Act and led its finance with new drafts of money, it must have been a complete fiasco and hundreds of thousands of tenants who had entered into provisional agreements with their landlords and were paying interest, instead of rent, would have been thrown back into their former position. In order to do that I had to obtain additional Grants from the Treasury, and it was a very difficult job to do it, and although I agree that my Act, as it is called, of 1909, is not so beneficial financially as was the previous Act of 1903, it is not as if I substituted the Act of 1909 for the Act of 1903. The Act of 1903 had broken completely down and the financial position of the Act of 1903 completed all transactions that had taken place under the Act of 1903, and were then outstanding.
I am really, in my humble way, a supplementer and supporter of the Act of 1903, and I had to make the best provision I could for future arrangements under the Act of 1909. The Land Bill which is now before the House, if the House can be induced to read it a third time, will benefit very considerably the acceleration of land purchase, which I agree is not going on so fast as I should like to see it, although the arrears are so great that all the exertions of the Land Commission are simply concerned in carrying out the transactions which are outstanding under that Act, and therefore the delay is not so great or so serious as it is sometimes supposed to be. But I can assure the hon. Member, though with the gratification of knowing beforehand that he will not believe me, that I am most anxious, and in this Session of Parliament, to put the Land Bill, which is in print, on the Statute Book. He knows as well as I do that it cannot be done except by some measure of Parliamentary agreement, and I am glad to think that the landlords and tenants of Ireland, through their representatives, are meeting and discussing this matter, and I am still quite hopeful—I do not say I am full of hope, but I am hopeful—there is a slight distinction between the two ways of putting it—that such a measure of time may be given to still enable me to proceed with the Bill, which I quite agree with the hon. Member, if he will allow me to agree with him, is a most important matter.
Upon the subject of the evicted tenants I think he was most unreasonable. The Evicted Tenants Act which we have passed have been very difficult Acts to carry out. The hon. Member talks of quips and quibbles. The quips and quibbles to which he refers are the provisions of the Statute, and if the Statute has inserted quips and quibbles it is not my fault. It is the fault of the legislators of the House who put in what they thought the necessary and wise provisions and Clauses. I cannot overrule those quips and quibbles. I am only dealing with the evicted tenants who come within the term and scope of the Act of Parliament. The hon. Member speaks as if an evicted tenant coming after twenty years of exclusion from his own holding and finding someone else in it, is a popular person in his community. I can assure him that I know a great deal better than that. It is a task of very great difficulty to get a holding for him. Very often he or she may repeatedly refuse to take over a holding, even a better one, which we can offer, so obstinate are they or so attached to their homes. You do not do justice to an old evicted tenant by making a new evicted tenant, and turning out someone who has been in occupation for ten, fifteen, or twenty years, and has got as fond of the holding as was ever the previous proprietor. Again, in a great number of instances we find that it is no kindness to put the evicted tenants on the soil. Their fathers may have done so, but they will never work the soil. They themselves have acquired other habits, living in other localities and in towns, or it may be abroad, and they are not suitable to do the work, and most laborious work it is to make a living out of a small holding in Ireland of a few acres. You have to be not only industrious, but skilled in the simple but not easily acquired habits and arts of agriculture. Therefore a number of these persons whose sympathy the hon. Member asks are not suited to it, and were the whole record of the history of evicted tenants ever told, it would be on the whole a fine history and a noble history, but it would be full of the most lamentable mistakes and some very great disasters made in consequence of the desire to restore these people to their own homes. However, I am not at all sorry that the hon. Member has had an opportunity of delivering his soul on this subject, and many things he said were eminently wise and sensible, and having regard to them I will pass over his criticism of myself.
SS. "Clumberhall" (Arrest)
I desire to bring to the notice of the House a question which is of vital importance to the commerce of this country, and that is with regard to the capture of a British steamer during the Italian-Turkish War in 1912. In April, 1912, the British ship "Clumberhall" left Liverpool in ballast bound to the east. The usual course was observed, and when she got to Port Said an additional fireman was shipped. It seems rather an extraordinary matter to bring to the notice of the House, but it is rather an extraordinary coincidence that in this case the Italian authorities were desirous of suggesting that this poor fireman, an Arab, was a Turkish officer in disguise. The ship continued her passage until the morning of 10th May, when, unfortunately, it was discovered that a crack had occurred in the starboard boiler. Naturally, the engineer was rather worried as to what might, be the position of the port boiler, and he made for the first port he could, and about midnight they arrived off Hodeidah in the Red Sea. The ship came to anchor five miles from shore, and after she had been there some time an Italian officer appeared and got into communication with the captain. Nothing was said to him as to his being within the blockaded area, or as to his having done anything against the law which had been formulated, but a recommendation was made to the captain that he should proceed further inshore with the idea that the examination of the starboard boiler should take place. But to the surprise of the captain, after he had been advised to go further inshore, another boat came over full of armed soldiers, and the captain was told that he was placed under arrest and that he had violated the blockade, and therefore his vessel had become a lawful prize to the Italian Government. I quite agree that in the ordinary course of events a merchant ship going into blockaded waters runs that risk. But surely under the circumstances it was evidently the bounden duty of the captain, for the protection of the lives that he had on board, and for the protection of his property, to do what any ordinary man of common sense would do, and make for the nearest port so as to examine the condition of the ship.
6.0.P.M.
Had she had any cargo on board it might have been inferred that something in the nature of contraband might be hidden, but there could be no such suggestion. The ship was entirely in ballast, and all she had was sufficient coal to take her out and bring her part of the way back to this country, in order that she would not have to pay the high price for coal that obtained in the East. The next thing that happened after the ship had been taken into Hodeidah, was that the Italian officer said, now we have arrested you it is necessary that we should take you into another port in the lied Sea, Massawah. When they got into the Port of Massawah the whole of the bunker coals were turned over, spade by spade, to see if there was anything there which might prove contraband. But there was nothing of the sort. The fireman was eventually sent back to the ship, and when he got there he bore traces of very great ill-treatment which would in the ordinary course of events lead one to believe that they had tried to get some information out of him, and having failed had scourged him. These are not the times when one would expect the methods of the Spanish inquisition. It is the duty of Members of this House to see that there is proper protection given to the shipowners of this country. They pay a high rate of premium. They contribute very much according to the dues that they have to pay. They pay for the upkeep of the Navy and they are entitled to receive the utmost care and attention from the Government of the country. The damage to the boiler was inspected by the engineer of an Italian man-of-war, the "Piemont," and the Italian officer agreed with the method which had been adopted by the engineer of the "Clumberhall" as to the manner in which the repairs should be carried out. There was a systematic examination of the whole of the bunkers. In fact, everything which was possible was done to find contraband; and then it was found that it was impossible to do so, for, after all, if that ship had actually broken the blockade—the official blockade—and had crossed the line, it would not have been necessary to have found any contraband on board, because the fact of crossing the blockaded line, if she was not in a damaged condition, would have been an act which would have entitled the Italians, under these circumstances, to have captured her. Surely it has been laid down by international practice that a ship which is disabled may, under certain circumstances, enter a blockaded port for effecting repairs, and I may state that, according to Article 7, it is provided that in circumstances of distress, acknowledged by an officer of the blockading port, a neutral vessel may enter a place under blockade, and be subsequently released, provided she has neither discharged nor shipped any cargo there. I venture to say that the captain of this ship complied entirely with the regulations, because five miles from the shore the Italian officer came onboard and was informed of the condition of the ship, and at the instigation of the officer himself the ship came further inshore. I have asked in this House whether, if there was a line of demarcation upon the shore seawards, how far a ship might be from the shore without coming within the blockaded line, and I received the following reply:— be one of the most important factors, would have been noted at the time, and would have been reported at the time. But it was not mentioned, and it was not put in the report of the Italian officer. I repeat, and I wish to emphasise the fact, that it was not until the case was actually tried that there was any suggestion whatever that the lights of the ship had been blinded. I am desirous of bringing to the notice of this House that two other steamers—the "Manouba" and the "Carthage"—happened to be in very similar waters about that time. One had Turkish passengers on board, and the other was carrying an aeroplane consigned to Tunis. These two vessels were captured. They happened to be French steamers, and the French Government said, "You must release the steamers and pay compensation," and that was done. Mistakes of that character may occur, though they should not; but, at all events, if they do occur, there is only one thing to be done, and that is for the Government which has made the capture to return the ship.
We ask that the expense to which the owner had been put should be refunded to him. That ship was fixed to load homewards from Bombay at a high rate of freight, and having been, delayed in getting out there, the voyage homewards had to be fixed at a much lower rate of freight, and in round figures there was a loss to the owner of £5,000. The Government may say that they are not responsible for that. I maintain that the Government here have admitted that the shipowner was entitled to some compensation, because I put a question to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a little while back and received a reply to the effect that representations were made to the Italian Government for compensation in respect of the undue detention of the ship. That proves my argument. It proves that the Government at that time was satisfied that a breach had been committed by the Italian Government. If our Government was satisfied at that time that there had been a breach, it is their duty to see that the British shipowner is protected, just in the same way as the French Government saw that the owners of the French steamers were protected. There have been all sorts of questions with regard to this ship. Some of the statements made by the Italian Government in trying to substantiate their case were most ridiculous. I have referred to the statement as to blinded lights, and to the statement that the poor fireman was a Turkish officer in disguise. As it happens, this same man has been shipped over and over again under similar circumstances by other shipowners, and I am in a position to give to the Government the names of the shipowners who have employed him simply for the run from Port Said through the Red Sea. Anyone who knows anything in regard to the conditions ruling in that part of the world must know full well that it is necessary to ship additional men. It is most ridiculous to point to this and to say that the "Clumberhall" had been in communication by wireless telegraphy with some other ships. I think that was the crowning part of the charge which as been made. Everyone knows full well that very few tramp steamers, comparatively speaking, are fitted with wireless telegraphy. It would not have been difficult for the Government to find out in this case that it was not in operation. I submit that I have clearly made out a case showing that this capture ought never to have occurred. The Government, by stating that they applied for compensation, have admitted that they made themselves conversant with the fact before making the application. Having been satisfied on that point, I venture to suggest that it is the plain and bounden duty of His Majesty's Government to see that the interests of British shipowners are protected, and that where compensation is due they will take the necessary steps to see that it is obtained.
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman opposite on having raised this question at a time when he can get a full answer, as I hope to give him now. The hon. Member's first attempt to raise the question was when he gave notice that he would bring it forward on the Motion for Adjournment one night. I think on that occasion he was stopped by an official on his own side. He tried to raise it on a subsequent occasion, but did not get his opportunity. Up to a certain point I am in entire agreement with the hon. Gentleman. The "Clumberhall" did develop a crack on 10th May, 1912, and did make on that date for Hodeidah Roads. The vessel steamed from ten in the morning until midnight, and did anchor at the place which has been mentioned. It was then boarded by the Italian authorities and sent for adjudication in a Prize Court. The case was reported to the Foreign Office on 16th May, 1912, and twelve days later, owing to the intervention of the Foreign Office, the boat was released before a detailed report from the Italian officers on the spot had, I believe, reached Rome. The boat proceeded to Bombay, and the underwriters made a claim for a loss of £5,300.
The owners.
I beg pardon, the owners. The Government put forward the claim that the question should be brought before a Prize Court, and the Italian Government, which was at first unwilling to do so, finally did so, and the ship went for adjudication to the Prize Court. The decision of the Italian Prize Court was that the ship was liable to be confiscated, and should have been confiscated, but having been released, owing to the good offices of the Italian Government, no further action could be taken. That is the main ground on which the Court gave its decision, so that the ship being, or presumed to be, where the blockade was in operation, had come within the blockaded area under the plea of distress, without first having the cause of distress verified by the blockading fleet. The other questions about the stoker, wireless telegraphy, and lights are all entirely subsidiary. This was the main point. First of all, was the ship where the blockade was in operation? Article 15 of the Declaration of London says:—
"Failing proof to the contrary, knowledge of blockade is presumed if the vessel left a neutral port subsequently to the notification of the blockade."
In this case the ship left Liverpool on 19th April, and notice had appeared in the "London Gazette," on 23rd January, and therefore, that condition was satisfied. The captain of the ship either knew of the blockade, or ought to have known, according to the provision in the Declaration of London. The second point is that, either knowing, or presumed to be aware, of the blockade, he came within the blockaded area. As the hon. Member knows, the blockade is not the area between the blockading ships and the shore. It is, to quote the commentary to Article 17 of the Declaration of London:
"All the zones watched (by ships which have been properly posted and instructed) taken together from the area of operations."
This area was blockaded because, as was admitted, shortly after she put down her anchor she was boarded by a party from the Italian ships which were watching, and therefore it must be admitted that she was inside the area which was blockaded. The third point is whether or not the "Clumberhall" had the cause of distress verified before entering the blockaded area. Clearly not, because according to the statement of the captain he did not know that it was a blockaded area, and secondly, it was not, according to the account of the owner, the "Clumberhall." but the "Piemont" which took the initiative in the matter. There was no request to have the cause of distress verified before coming within the blockading line. The ship came within the blockading line without having the cause of distress verified, as shown by the fact that before the ship took any step at all a party from the Italian vessel boarded it. Therefore, unfortunately, the case does not come within Article 7 of the Declaration of London, which says that in circumstances of distress acknowledged by an officer of the blockading port a neutral vessel may enter the locality under blockade.
For those three reasons the decision of the Prize Court must stand. It is perfectly certain under the Declaration of London that the "Clumberhall" was technically guilty of a breach of blockade, and therefore liable to confiscation. Therefore there is no claim for compensation for a few days delay, but there is rather, I may suggest, a cause of gratitude by the hon. Member's friends that the ship, owing to the good offices of the British Government, was released after eighteen days, from which, of course, you must deduct such time as the ship would have had to lie up owing to having a cracked boiler. But we have not got any gratitude. On the contrary. What happened subsequently? We asked for compensation undoubtedly, as the hon. Member stated, because of the delay, our grounds being that there was no evidence of guilty intention, and therefore we asked as an act of grace for compensation for missing the charter. The hon. Member claims that when we ask another Government to give compensation as an act of grace and when they refuse we ourselves are liable to pay that money which we ask from them. If that doctrine was to be established, it would be very difficult for us ever to ask any sum to be paid by anybody, because on the hon. Member's own showing, if we do not get it, we ourselves are liable to have to pay it.
I never suggested that the Government should have to pay the money.
I thought that the suggestion was that as we had acknowledged that the claim was just, we were liable to make good the compensation.
To see it carried out.
The claim is that the British Government, simply because we ask for compensation in this case and it was refused, should thereupon make ourselves liable to have to pay the compensation afterwards. We went a little further than that, and asked that if the Italian Government did not see their way to compensate arbitration might be granted. The Italian Government replied that in view of the declaration of the Prize Court they must regard the matter as closed. And with regard to arbitration we found that our arbitration agreement with Italy only applied to cases of a legal nature, and on taking such advice as was available to us, we came to the conclusion that the reasonableness of the length of detention could not really be treated as a case of a legal nature, and therefore we could not really proceed with our claim that the matter should be arbitrated upon. Therefore the case is closed, and I fear must remain closed, and the owners abuse us instead of being grateful to us for having got their vessel off confiscation, which was adjudicated under the international rules governing these things. Two very short questions arise. First, is the international law under which this question was decided by the Italian Prize Court reasonable? I think that it is, because ships before entering the blockaded area should get leave, and should have the cause of distress verified by the blockading authority. I do not think that if we were to have war we should recognise the rights of ships to penetrate through our blockade without getting the cause of distress verified, and taking our chance after they had gone through. Such a rule would be very much liable to abuse.
The second question is: Are we to be bound by this international law, even when it acts against our interests, as we desire Bothers to be bound by it when it acts in accordance with our interests? These Articles of the Declaration of London, as the hon. Members knows very well, have not yet been ratified, but it is surely rather a compliment to us that, in all recent wars, foreign nations have been willing to be bound by the provisions of the Declaration of London; and if they had been willing to be bound by the provisions of the Declaration made on our invitation at a conference which we call, we who are primarily responsible for that conference and for its decisions, should not try to go back on those decisions when other nations pay us the compliment of observing them and taking them for the best code of sea law that is now in existence. Then there is just the point that if the Government had been able to get their way, and this declaration had been ratified, we should not have been in this position, and the matter might then have been referred to an International Prize Court. But the hon. Member knows quite well who it is has made it impossible for us to set up an International Prize Court. Our Prize Courts Bill was rejected by the House of Lords. I am afraid that as long as this is the case the hon. Member and his Friends must put up with the decisions of national Prize Courts, because in the absence of International Prize Courts those decisions cannot be revoked.
Surely if we want decisions of our Prize Courts to be respected, if the hon. Member and the profession which, I believe, he ornaments, that of underwriter, wants to have things of a simplicity which I should have thought must be in the interests of underwriter, namely, that matters should be decided by Prize Courts, and not have it every time a question of wrangling, we must respect the decision of Prize Courts in cases affecting British ships, if we want to have other nations respecting the decisions of an English Court in regard to their vessels. We cannot get such a decision under the provisions of the Declaration of London. That being so, we ought not to quarrel with this decision, simply because of the occurrence if eighteen days' delay to a British ship. With regard to the "Carthage" and "Manouba," they are quite different. They tried to seize articles on the conditionally contraband list when destined for a neutral port. That was found to be as definitely against the Declaration of London, as what was done by the Prize Court was in accordance with the Declaration of London, and I do not think that the hon. Member can compare a case where the action of the belligerents was in accordance with international law with a case where the action was clearly contrary to international law. It is because we feel that the decisions of our Prize Courts, when given, should be respected by other Powers, that we feel bound to put up with the decisions of Prize Courts if other nations when they are in accordance with the code of regulations which we had so great a part in framing and in setting up.
Taxi-Cab Drivers
I desire to take this opportunity of calling the attention of the Government to the grievances of the motor cabmen. The cabmen at present are bearing a great many burdens. He pays various fees, and he pays taxes on petrol, and there is one tax which is very irritating to him, and the incidence of which is very hard. That is the local taxation licence. The ordinary licence up to 20 cwts. for a cab is 15s. As soon as it exceeds 20 cwts. it is £2 17s., while for a motor lorry over 5 tons it is 15s. again. In order to build a motor cab according to the regulations of Scotland Yard, it is difficult to construct it under 21 cwts., and a cab of this weight ought to be on the 15s. scale. As a mere matter of ensuring the safety of the cab, it is desirable that the limit of 20 cwts. should be increased to at least from 23 to 25 cwts., which would not only be relieving the cabman himself, but would be an additional incentive to increasing the safety of the public by having a cab which Would in all respects insure the standard required by Scotland Yard, and not be liable to the same accidents as lighter cabs. This is particulary the case in reference to those cabmen who have their own cabs, and who ought to be encouraged. I believe that the cabs which belong to the large companies are as a rule only 20 cwts., but those cabs which are owned by the men themselves generally exceed 21 cwts., and are more comfortable and certainly are more safe. I strongly urge the Government before bringing in the Revenue Bill to increase the limit of weight for the low tax. It is only fail-that that should be done when one considers that a motor lorry can be 5 tons and only pay 15s. though it does much more damage to the roads than the 21 cwt. cab. In the case of a motor cab paying 15s. Motor Licence Duty, half the amount is taken off after the 1st of October. There is a reduction of 7s. 6d., and the cab only pays 50 per cent, of the full duty for the three months for which the licence is valid. But if a licence for which £2 17s. is charged is taken out after the 1st of October, there is a reduction of only 7s. 6d. instead of 50 per cent, which is given in the case of the smaller duty. This acts very harshly in the case of the cabmen who take out these licences. I urge very strongly on the Government that when they are bringing the Revenue Bill, or in some other way they should try to redress that grievance which bears very heavily on these cabmen and irritate them very much, and that they should modify it in such a way as to make it more equitable.
I am sorry that I shall not be able to afford the hon. Member as full an answer as I should have otherwise given if I had received longer notice. With regard to the question of weight, it is probably true, as the hon. Member has said, that the taxi-cab, to be reliable should be about 21 cwt., and all I can say is that the point the hon. Gentleman has raised is one that shall be considered sympathetically, as far as I am concerned, in order that justice may be done between the two classes, and to that class on which the law presses heavily at the present time. With regard to the men who drive their own cabs, anything which will make it easy for them to carry on their trade ought to be encouraged.
I desire to bring to the notice of the House what I consider to be a serious evasion of the provisions of the Fair-Wages Clause on the part of the contractors at the naval base at Rosyth. According to the information that has been supplied to me by the representatives of the men, at least two classes of workmen are being paid wages that, are under the rate of wages paid by other employers in the district. One class of which I speak are the carpenters, who are engaged on concrete work and in reinforcing concrete work. According to the information supplied to me, they are paid as much as from 4s. to 8s. per week less than the wage agreed upon by workmen under other employers in the district. The other class to which I refer are the navvies, who are paid 5½d. an hour. According to the information I have received from their representative, that is the lowest wage paid by any employers in the district for that class of work. I have here a list of the local contractors and the wages they pay, and in no single instance, in that district, do they pay less than 6d. per hour to their men. To pay 5½ an hour to men employed under a Government contractor is an evasion of the Fair-Wages Clause, and it ought to be very carefully inquired into.
We have heard a great deal recently said in this House about housing conditions of workmen in the Rosyth area. I put it very seriously to the Members of this House that we cannot expect men paid at the rate of 5½per hour, or an average of 22s. or 23s. per week, to provide decent accommodation for themselves and their families. The rents in this locality are very high—at least, for Scotland. The rent for two rooms is from 4s. to 5s. 6d. per week, and of three rooms from 6s. 8d. to 13s. 7d. per week. Men earning a little more than £l a week are not in a position to pay such high rents, and they take in lodgers, which has been the cause of a large amount of overcrowding in the district recently. I expect that the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Dr. Macnamara) will remind me that the Advisory Committee was sent to inquire into this very matter. I am perfectly aware that the Committee was sent about July or August of 1912 to make this inquiry, but I do not think that an investigation which left outside its scope any representative of the workmen was at all satisfactory. It might be all right to make inquiry at the Labour Exchanges and among the employers of the district, but I think that the representatives of the workmen ought to have been included among those from whom evidence was taken in regard to such a matter as this, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree to again send the Advisory Committee to the district to make full inquiry into this matter, taking evidence not only from the Labour Exchanges and the employers, but from the representatives of the men and those who are interested in the welfare of the men.
I certainly support the appeal made by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife to the right hon. Gentleman that further consideration should be given to the case of this deserving class of men, who I must say have been treated in a way that this House never intended in regard to the question of fair wages. There is no doubt about the fact that no contractor in the district is paying 5½d an hour. The firms employed by the War Office at the barrack works opposite Rosyth pay 6d. an hour minimum wage both as regards navvies and other workers, and it is a well-known fact that navvies engaged recently in constructing a tramway in the same district struck for 6½d. an hour, and the whole of the works were completed at that rate. Yet the same class of men employed by the Government contractor are receiving 5½d. an hour. As a matter of fact, I do-not believe there is a solitary workman in the district, apart from the Government contractor's employés, receiving less than 6d. an hour; so that, instead of being model employers, the Government are the worst in the locality. Somehow or other the contractor, who is a very decent fellow —there is no doubt about that—has got to the soft side of the Department, and I have not much hope of getting anything. Indeed, in regard to the housing question, it was only when I employed the big stick of the Opposition that I could get the Government to do anything. Immediately that big stick was employed they tumbled over, and I got justice done. We shall never get justice done in regard to the wages question until we get some Member of the Opposition to voice our claim. The Government pay very little attention to any Member on this side of the House; it is only when a powerful Member of the Opposition gets up to represent our case that they listen. I make this offer to the right hon. Gentleman: If he can show me a majority of one, or if he can show me that there are half a dozen employers in the locality that do not pay a minimum rate of sixpence an hour, then I agree that at least he has some case. But, as a matter of fact, nobody in the district pays less than that rate. That is why there should be some inquiry in order to see whether the rate cannot be improved.
The Advisory Committee, when the last-strike took place, proceeded in the way my hon. Friend described. They asked the employers in the locality to give them information as to the rate of wages, but they never asked any representatives of the workmen to appear before them in order to ascertain what was their grievance in regard to wages, and I submit that-to come to a proper decision they ought to have consulted both sides. It was the strangest sort of Advisory Committee I have ever heard of. They consulted employers, but not a single trade unionist was ever called upon, nor did trade unionists even know that an inquiry was in progress. It was only after the Committee had got their information in their own way that the trade unions knew anything about the subject at all. My hon. Friend has taken the matter in hand, but for myself I do not think we shall ever get any advantage for the workmen, or even get a fair interpretation of the Fair-Wages Clause, unless the representatives of labour take part in an inquiry. Otherwise, I do not believe that they will get anything, nor would I have got anything in respect of housing if it had not been for the assistance which I received from the Opposition. Then it became a national question, and the people could see at once that there was something very important to be considered and solved. For myself, I believe it will only be in some such way that the Fair-Wages question will be solved. I have not much confidence in the invitation to send a Committee there, but, at any rate, I back up my hon. Friend's protest against the wages that are being paid, and if something can be done I shall Toe very pleased. I have grave doubts after five or six years of efforts to get fair wages for these men that we shall ever be able to accomplish it.
As the House is aware, this work is being done under a contract, and it is not a question of what I think, as the hon. Member for Stoke seemed to put the matter. It is a question of carrying out the terms of the contract, as far as the wages are concerned. That is the point raised by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson. This is the contract:—
The wages paid in the execution of the whole of the contract shall be those generally accepted as current in each trade for competent workmen in the district in which the work is carried out. This condition shall apply to all sub-contracts entered into by the contractor in connection with the said works and the contractor shall procure the insertion of a provision to the same effect in any such sub-contract."
All I have got to do is to see that that is carried out.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know that in every subcontract the contractors, Messrs. Easton and Gibbs, Limited, have insisted on a minimum rate of 6d.?
What I am first of all saying is this. I really think, with great respect, that my hon. Friends might admit the situation. What my view about the matter is is not in issue here. The question is: What are the terms of the contract, and is the contract being carried out? That is the question and that is the issue, and that is not quite the way he has put it. The minimum at that time when that contract was signed was 5d. per hour, and in 1912, as my hon. Friend knows, a strike took place for a minimum rate of 6d. A most careful examination was made of the facts and of the conditions in the locality to see that the terms of this contract were being carried out, and the conclusion was arrived at that for competent men the wage generally paid at that time reached 5½d. per hour.
Will the right hon. Gentleman state why no representatives of the men were consulted when the inquiry was being made?
I have not lost sight of that point. After that inquiry we immediately advised the contractor that 5½d. was clearly the minimum rate, and that therefore they must go up to 5½d. Then my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. J. Ward) challenged that and said the minimum is not 5½d., but is 6d. I requested the Fair-Wages Advisory Committee to give me their independent view. My hon. Friend would not take my view, and he told us to-day he does not think he will ever get this question satisfactorily dealt with, "because the Admiralty have made up their minds to have this work done at 5½d." That is not the position at all. We have got to get the work done and see that the contract is respected. My hon. Friend said the minimum rate is not 5½d., but is 6d., and in order that there might be a perfectly independent inquiry I handed over the whole thing to the Fair-Wages Advisory Committee. I have taken a careful note of what the hon. Member for West Fife said with regard to the character of the inquiry, and I will represent it to the President of the Board of Trade, who is President of the Fair-Wages Advisory Committee. I may say that my experience of the Fair-Wages Advisory Committee is that they do their work with great impartiality and with great care, and that their reports are most reliable. I have in connection with many labour questions received from them very up-to-date advice and advice of great reliability, but, as I say, I will convey the objection to the President of the Board of Trade. We have a most admirable representative on the Committee, but in order that it might not be suggested that we took any part in the matter I asked him not to sit on this occasion. This is the report I re- ceived on the 24th of October, 1912, from the Fair-Wages Advisory Committee:—
That is ten months ago, and I have no evidence, I am bound to say, that the conditions have materially altered in the sense suggested by my hon. Friend, namely, that 5|d. is no longer the minimum rate current for competent workmen. From what I have said, it will be observed that the whole matter has been continuously watched, and has been inquired into by the Committee in 1912 and in 1913. I will consider, if my hon. Friend will submit detailed particulars to me, whether there is any case to justify a further investigation. What we have to do is to see that the contract is carried out. It is no good my saying I think that these men ought to have this or to have that, as that is not the point, and it should not be put that way. The point is: Do the contractors carry out the terms of this contract? I do my best to see that they do, and I say, so far from the evidence placed in my hands and by the Advisory Committee, they are carrying out the contract. As I say, if my hon. Friend thinks he can place in my hands some new evidence or new facts of a change which would lead me justly to come to the conclusion that 5½d. was no longer the minimum rate for competent workmen in that locality, then I should be bound to go into that question. With regard to housing, whatever may be the reasons, the contractors agreed some time ago to add hut accommodation for 300 single men and 200 huts for married men. I receive weekly reports in detail as to the progress of the erection of these huts, and I am very hopeful indeed that there will be forty married quarters ready on the 28th of this month, on which date the lettings fall in in that district.
May I ask whether any inquiries are being made in regard to what are called timbermen, with a view to seeing whether they are receiving the standard rate of wage?
As I have said, continual inquiries have been made, and I have no evidence before me yet on which I should be justified in making inquiry again. If such evidence is put before me, I will certainly see that inquiry is made. With regard to timbermen, who, I understand, are not carpenters in the trade sense of the word, but more in the nature of skilled labourers doing rough work in the trenches, I will have their wages looked into if I receive any new evidence to justify my going into the matter again.
National Insurance Act (Out-Workers)
May I on the morrow of the Ipswich election, when the Government must have an open mind as regards the merits of the Insurance Act, ask them once more to consider the cruel case of married women out-workers in the lace trade? I do not mean to make a ladies' case unpopular by pleading it at an inopportune moment, and I will not say a word on the merits of the case, though few cases come before the House having a greater claim upon its sympathy. I hope and believe that at this moment the Government may be inclined to consider the case of these poor married women out of whom pennies are being wrung by the Insurance Act. The hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East (Mr. Wedgwood 'Benn), who, I am told, is here to reply to me, but will not arrive until I have finished my speech, answers in this House for the Insurance Commissioners, and so did Mr. Masterman. Mr. Masterman was made a Cabinet Minister, and so will the hon. Member be, if he attends when subjects in which he is interested are brought up. Mr. Masterman is now wandering up and down the face of the earth looking for a seat, and so will the hon. Member be if he maintains a deaf ear to these hard cases. [At this point Mr. Wedgwood Benn entered the House.] I was just warning the hon. Member that his association with the Insurance Act will place him in turn in the unfortunate position now occupied by Mr. Masterman, if he does not attend to the prayers and tears of these unfortunate victims of a policy of social reform and Socialistic legislation. I ask the hon. Member once more, Will he or will he not look into this case? If he will not, a great disaster is surely in store for him, and he will repent his inattention in sackcloth and ashes when it is too late.
Housing of Working Classes
The hon. Member for Stoke has brought against the Government a charge of underpaying some of their employés. I do not propose to enter into that, except to say that, having many dockyard empires in my Constituency, I recognise the willingness of the Government to consider their appeals, but muck more remains to be done in the direction of some of the workers in the dockyards. We look to the Government to be model employers, but, bearing in mind the increased cost of living, I do not think that the Government have treated some of the employé the dockyard as they should have done. I would also mention the case of the sub-postmasters. I recognise that the Postmaster-General has done something to deal with grievances in the postal' service, but I do not think that he has yet acted fairly in the case of sub-postmasters, nor in the case of clerks in rural post offices. The work of these young men and girls has been greatly increased on account of the Old Age Pensions Act and the Insurance Act, and I think they have a further claim on the Government for fair treatment. In answer to a question of mine, the Postmaster-General stated that where there was an increase of work there was an increase of staff. That does not apply effectively in the smaller post offices, because a gradual increase of work takes place before the increase is of sufficient volume to justify an addition to the staff, and the employés have to do the work of the administration of the Old Age Pensions and the Insurance Acts without any extra remuneration whatever.
But I rose especially to ask the Government to give attention to the question of the housing of the working classes. There are no employers in the country so negligent as the Government in providing -dwelling-houses for their own employés. Preceding Governments have participated in the neglect. We see little done by the Government to provide houses for dockyard workers, policemen, or schoolmasters. These are public employés, and they have to occupy cottages and houses that are really required for other residents, especially in rural districts. If the Government made an effort to provide suitable dwellings for their own employés it would greatly reduce the pressure on ordinary residents in rural districts. The question is becoming more acute every day. In consequence of the alarm felt at the Budget of 1909 there was a great reduction in the provision of dwellings. The year before that Budget the number of small dwellings built was 87,000; the year after the number had fallen to something like 16,000. It is true that there has been some recovery from that depression; but, all the same, the alarm has greatly checked builders in their speculation in providing houses. We owe a debt of gratitude to the speculative builders, because they have been the agents through whom a large number of dwellings have been provided for the working classes. But they have been disheartened by what they considered to be menacing legislation, and that has made the question more acute than ever before. I hope the Government will do something, and that speedily, to remedy this grievance. The competition for houses causes rents to go up. On some big estates where cottages were formerly let for 1s. 9d. a week, they are now being let at 2s. 6d. or 3s.
The President of the Board of Agriculture led us to hope a little while ago that the Government were going to build a hundred thousand cottages, but we can see no signs whatever of the fulfilment of that promise. We on this side have year after year produced, but the House has refused to pass what I think would have proved an excellent measure for dealing with this difficulty. We have had no encouragement from the Government at all. Indeed, the late President of the Local Government Board offered strong opposition to the measure. Therefore, a cumulative responsibility rests upon the Government to do something at least to provide dwellings for their own employés. I would like to see them, acting through local bodies, encourage local authorities to deal with this question in a progressive spirit, to do away with slums, and to provide good dwellings for the working classes. It is a most important question. The Government have not dealt fairly with the matter. They have opposed Unionist proposals without producing anything that they considered more effective or more suitable. Living in a rural district and near a. large town, I know that this is an increasingly important matter, and the Government are partly responsible for the aggravation of the grievance. I hope, therefore, they will soon do something effective with a view to securing the provision of suitable dwellings at rents which the working classes can afford to pay. I believe that that would conduce more to the welfare of the people generally than any other line of action they could possibly take up. At His Majesty's prison at Princetown the Government are making some efforts, but they are insufficient to meet the requirements of their own employés. There are something like forty men there, many of whom would like to get married if they could get the necessary housing accommodation. I think that they are entitled to consideration at the hands of the Government, as well as employés elsewhere. I hope the Government will realise their responsibilities in this matter and set an example to other employers.
I merely rise to reply to the question put to me by the hon. Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) about the outworkers of Nottingham. He asked whether an inquiry could be held into this case. The fact is that two inquiries have already been made by Committees presided over by Sir Ernest Hatch and Mr. Pope. Both inquiries, after a full examination of the evidence, came unanimously to one conclusion. That conclusion has also commended itself to the Advisory Committee, where both workers and employers are fully represented. Were you to exclude married women outworkers, you would inflict a great injustice on the single women outworkers. The exclusion of outworkers at all would inflict a great injustice on the inworkers.
Why not exclude them both?
That would inflict a great injustice upon people who are inworkers, and working in factories. That the Act is working well in the district is shown by the latest Report, which states that there are only two employers out of 769 who object to it. That shows that the Act is being successful. It certainly is for the benefit of the workpeople concerned, and I am afraid I can hold out no hope to the hon. Member of any further inquiry.
Business of the House
May I ask what business the Government intend to take on the reassembling of the House?
The Prime Minister announced last Thursday that on Tuesday, 9th June, we shall take the Second Reading of the National Insurance Act, 1911 (Part II.) Amendment Bill, the Milk and Dairies (England and Scotland) Bill, and if time permit, some of the smaller Orders on the Paper.
On Wednesday there will be taken Supply (Post Office Vote).
On Thursday, Supply (Home Office Vote).
In regard to Friday, which is a Government day, the Prime Minister will be glad to answer a question at the beginning of that week.
Question, "That this House do now adjourn until Tuesday, the 9th June," put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly, at Seventeen minutes lifter Seven o'clock, till Tuesday, 9th June.
Petitions Presented
The following Petitions were presented and ordered to lie upon the Table:—
Monday
Borough Funds Bill—Petition from Manchester, against.
Disorderly Houses Bill—Petition from Westminster, in favour.
Established Church (Wales) Bill—Petitions against from Penrith West, Rosley, and Winster.
Vaccination Acts (Repeal) Bill—Petition from Govan, against