House of Commons
Monday, June 15, 1914
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER, laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, that, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Gas Light and Coke Company Bill [ Lords ]
Bristol Corporation (Various Powers) Bill [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
Naval Medical Compassionate Fund Bill (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 9th day of June, That, in the case of the following Bill, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—
Naval Medical Compassionate Fund Bill.
Ordered, That Standing Orders 204 and 235 be suspended in the case of any Bill the time for the Second Reading of which expired during the Whitsuntide Recess, and that the Second Reading of any such Bill shall be set down on Wednesday, 17th June.—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]
Abertillery and District Water Board [ Lords ],
A verbal Amendment made; Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Wadhurst and District Gas Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Great Western Railway Bill,
As amended, to be considered To-morrow.
Wesleyan and General Assurance Society Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Friday.
Stone Gas and Electricity Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
As amended, considered; A Clause added; Bill to be read the third time.
London County Council (Money) Bill (by Order),
Read a second time, and committed.
Dee Fisheries Provisional Order Bill, Gas and Water Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill,
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 19) Bill (by Order),
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 11) Bill (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill,
"To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to Cavan and Londonderry." Presented by Mr. BIRRELL.
Ordered, That, in the case of the Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill, Standing Order 193a be suspended, and that the Bill be read the first time.—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]
Bill accordingly read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 283.]
Mines and Quarries
Copy presented of Annual Report for the year 1913 by the Chief Inspector of Mines. Part I., Divisional Statistics [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Explosions (Cliffe, Kent)
Copy presented of Report to the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the circumstances attending an Explosion of Nitro-glycerine, which occurred in a cordite stove of the Factory of Messrs. Curtis and Harvey, Limited, at Cliffe, on 29th April, 1914 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Closing Order made by the Council of the urban district of Tredegar, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
East India (India Office, Retirement at Sixty-Five)
Return presented relative thereto [Address 12th June; Mr. Charles Roberts ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Board of Agriculture and Fisheries
Copy presented of Annual Report on the Distribution of Grants for Agricultural Education and Research in the year 1913–14 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Annual Report on Sea Fisheries for the year 1913. Part I. Report [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Agriculture (Scotland)
Copy presented of Second Report of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland for the year ended 31st December, 1913 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Local Government Board (Scotland)
Copy presented of Return of the Area, Population, and Valuation of Counties Burghs, and Parishes in Scotland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Board of Education
Copies presented of Reports for 1913 on the Science Museum and on the Geological Survey and Museum of Practical Geology [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
National Insurance Act
Copy presented of Special Order, dated 4th June, 1914, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, acting jointly with the Insurance Commissioners and the Welsh Insurance Commssioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Employment under Local and Public Authorities) Exclusion Order, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.[No. 269.]
Copy Presented of Special Order, dated 9th June, 1914, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, entitled the National Health Insurance (Normal Rate of Remuneration) Order, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.[No. 270.]
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 5th June, 1914, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, and the Insurance Commissioners, the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, the Irish Insurance Commissioners, and the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, acting jointly, entitled the National Health Insurance (Collection of Contributions, Navy and Marine) Regulations, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 271.]
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 5th June, 1914, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, and the Insurance Commissioners, the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, the Irish Insurance Commissioners, and the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, acting jointly, entitled the National Health Insurance (Collection of Contributions, Soldiers) Regulations, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.[No. 272.]
Copy presented of Provisional Regulations, dated 10th June, 1914, made by the Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Married Women's Special Benefits) Regulations, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.[No. 273.]
Copy presented of Provisional Regulations, dated 9th June, 1914, made by the Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Insurance Committees, Election of Medical Representatives) Regulations (No. 2), 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.[No. 274.]
Copy presented of Provisional Regulations, dated 9th June, 1914, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, entitled the National Insurance (Arrears) Amendment Regulations, 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.[No. 275.]
Inspectors of Nuisances (England and Wales)
Return ordered, "of the inspectors of Nuisances in England and Wales who do not give their whole time to that office, showing as regards each officer (a) the area and population of his district; (b) his remuneration as Inspector of Nuisances; and (c) his other public or private employments."—[ Mr. Ramsay Macdonald. ]
Housing by Local Authorities
Return ordered, "so far as particulars are available, as to ( i. )the cost of the provision made by local authorities for housing persons of the working classes, in pursuance of improvement schemes and reconstruction schemes under Parts I. and II. of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, and the charge, if any, on the rates in respect thereof; (ii.) the cost of schemes for the provision of houses for the working classes under Part III. of the said Act, and the charge, if any, on the rates in respect thereof; and (iii.) the cost of housing schemes under Section 3 and the Schedule of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1903, and the charge, if any, on the rates in respect thereof. (Return to apply to London County Council, town councils of county boroughs, and Metropolitan borough councils.)"—[ Sir Thomas Whittaker. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
"Tai-On" Piracy
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can say how many people lost their lives owing to the piracy of the "Tai-On"; how many of these were British subjects; and whether, in view of the inadequate protection afforded by the British Admiralty, he can see his way to influence the Chinese Government to augment their service of revenue cruisers officered by Europeans?
I have no precise information as to the number of persons who lost their lives as a result of the "Tai-On" piracy. The Chinese and the British naval and Colonial authorities are in communication with a view concerting measures for the protection of shipping Southern Chinese waters.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the only river gunboats now are the "Sandpiper" and the "Robin," that they are both obsolete, and that should the "Triumph" be commissioned the crews of both gunboats will be absorbed by her and there will be no river gunboat available at all?
I will take note of what the hon. Member says on the subject.
Hankow (British University)
asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he has received a communication from the Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce and manufacturers suggesting that £250,000 might be allocated from the amount of the Boxer Indemnity to establish a British university at Hankow; and whether he proposes to entertain the same?
The memorial from the Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce referred to has been received, and is under consideration.
Wireless Time-Signals (Dominions and Colonies)
asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs if he will state what were the recommendations, made by the British delegates at the International Conference held in Paris for the establishment of wireless time-signals, at certain stations in the Dominions and Colonies, and which were communicated to the Dominions and Colonies with a view to adoption?
The recommendations were that time-signals should be transmitted from wireless stations at Capetown, Colombo, and Hong Kong, at which places there are observatories, and that the Governments of the Commonwealth of Australia and the Dominion of New Zealand should also be asked to co-operate in the scheme.
Persian Oil-Fields
asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether the Government contemplate the formal annexation or protectorate of the neutral oil-bearing zone in Persia; whether he has I been advised that, in the event of troubles arising in that country involving danger to the oil-fields in which it is proposed to invest over two millions of public funds, adequate military protection can be given; and, if not, what measures the Government have considered which would afford protection to this source of Admiralty supply?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the remainder, I am not prepared to make any statement pending the discussion of the subject on Wednesday, when a full statement can be made.
May I ask if, on Wednesday, the Minister for Foreign Affairs has arranged to be in his place to explain the effect of the international arrangement between Russia and Persia?
Surely the Secretary of State will be here in respect of matters on which he ought to be here.
Does the hon. Gentleman understand that there are very important matters affecting the Foreign Secretary in regard to the arrangement between Russia and Persia?
I will do my best to bear that in mind.
asked the Prime Minister if he can say exactly how the money which the Government proposes to invest in the Anglo-Persian Oil Company will be allocated and spent; and how much, and to whom, will be paid in cash?
The whole of the Government subscription for two million ordinary shares will be allocated to fresh cash expenditure necessary to the obtaining of oil for naval purposes, and for refining, storing, transporting, etc.; for example, pipe lines, refinery plant, improved means of transit, storage tanks, barges, boring and opening up of wells, etc. The whole expenditure will be in cash for these purposes on estimates which have been submitted and examined, and will further be subject to the scrutiny of the Government ex officio directors. The money advanced, on debenture security will be utilised for the ordinary purposes of the company and in repayment of outstanding loans to the company secured on their properties. The Government debentures rank parri passu. with those already issued, and the permanent assets will be greatly enhanced in value by the additions referred to. The increase of debentures is within the company's existing rights of charge.
Is any of this money being used by the Anglo-Persian Company to repay money advanced to them for the payment of preference dividends by the Burma Oil Company?
I must have notice of that.
Will this money be expended solely and wholly on the improvement and development of the concession of the company in Persia: will it or will it not be available to be diverted for any other purpose?
I have said that the £2,000,000 subscribed for the purpose of ordinary stock, is to be exclusively devoted to new developments, and that the £200,000 which has been paid to obtain control in regard to debentures is for the ordinary purpose of the company.
Is it to be in Persia?
Yes.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a large sum of money due to the Burma Oil Company from the Persian Oil Company?
I am aware of the relations between the two companies.
Will the shares allotted be-new shares?
Yes, Sir, entirely new shares.
asked whether any valuation has been made as to the actual value of the producing properties of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company and the actual amount which it may be assumed has been spent in the development of that property to the present time; and, if so, whether such valuation can be made public, so that it could be seen how the amount expended, together with the other assets of the company, compares in its total with the total face value of the share capital?
Expert examination has been made of the property and plant as well as of all books and accounts of expenditure for the original concession and for its development to date. This examination has satisfied His Majesty's Government that the present capitalisation of the company is reasonable; also that the area of proved territory and its potentialities fully justify the further expenditure contemplated by His Majesty's Government for the necessary developments for naval purposes. Beyond the information in the Report of Admiral Slade's Commission already presented to Parliament, it is not considered advisable to publish further details.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the amount of cash which was paid by the Burma Oil Company for the £1,000,000 ordinary shares which they hold in the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, in which the Government propose to take a further £2,000,000 of similar ordinary shares; and whether the Government will acquire these £2,000,000 shares by a similar proportionate cash payment?
The holding of ordinary shares by the Burma Oil Company in the Anglo-Persian Oil Company is 970,000 shares of £l each. The balance of the one million ordinary shares was held by Lord Strathcona. The Burma Company received half of its present holding in payment for its share of the original concession, and the balance it obtained from the original concessionaire in return for Burma Oil Company shares of a current cash value of more than one million pounds. In regard to the second part of the question, the answer is in the negative. His Majesty's Government is obtaining its shares on much more favourable terms than the Burma Oil Company, mainly in consideration of the large supply contract which it is in a position to place with the company.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Burma Oil Company has paid the dividends for the last five years on the preference shares of the Persian Oil Company?
I do not see the relevance of that question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the quotation of the ordinary shares?
The hon. Gentleman has as good an opportunity of ascertaining that as I have.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any commission is being paid for the introduction of this £2,000,000 of new capital?
I do not understand what the hon. Member means.
May I repeat the question? Has any commission been paid by anyone for the Government taking up this £2,000,000 of capital in the Persian Oil Company?
I really do not understand what the hon. Gentleman means Will he be a little more precise?
Do I understand that the Government is investing £2,000,000 in shares in this company?
The Government is investing £2,200,000 in this company.
Arising then out of that answer I ask the right hon. Gentleman a plain question, namely, whether any commission has been paid or will be paid to anyone in consequence of the Government investing £2,200,000 in this company?
I have no knowledge of any such thing.
The right hon. Gentleman might have said so at once.
Is the Government making this purchase directly or through any firm?
No; the negotiations have been conducted on the part of the Government by Sir Francis Hopwood and Sir Frederick W. Black on behalf of the Admiralty and two representatives of the Treasury, and the names of all parties concerned are set out in the Papers published to Parliament.
They have robbed the brokers of their commission.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state how many gallons of oil have been supplied for British naval purposes by the Burma Oil Company, which has been a producing company for a long time, and which is the parent company of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, with which the Government proposes to establish a partnership; what are the prices charged for oil so supplied; and how do prices and quantities compare with the prices charged and the quantities supplied by other British companies?
As frequently stated to Parliament, there are sound reasons in the public interest, strategic and otherwise, for not making public either the quantities, prices, or definite geographical distribution of contracts for important naval supplies. It is regretted that no exception can be made in the present instance, but it may be stated that the Burma Oil Company have supplied the Admiralty with many thousands of tons of oil fuel of very high grade at prices which compare most favourably with those from any other source, British or foreign, and the arrangement which is in force with the Burma Company is one of the most valuable of our standing contracts for large supplies in special circumstances.
Board of Agriculture
Argentine Cattle (Royal Agricultural Show)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he can state whether the South American ports will be opened to our cattle before the date of the Boyal Show?
The practice of the Argentine Government is to prohibit the importation of live stock for a period of six months from the date of the last outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. Scotland, as the result of representations made by me in 1912, is now treated as a separate unit for this purpose, and the export trade from that country, which has remained free from the disease, has not been interrupted, but shipments of animals from England and Wales will not be permitetd presumably until after the 20th September next. The question of reducing the period is being discussed between the two Governments, but I regret that no final decision has yet been reached. The other South American States have not prohibited the importation of British stock.
Has the right hon. Gentleman made any special request to the Argentine Government as regards the Royal Show?
I have made no representation to the Argentine Republic with regard to the Royal Show, seeing that they have stated their opinion quite definitely as to the export of English live stock. Communications are passing every week with the Argentine Government.
Swine Fever
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether the chief veterinary officer of the Board has recently made some valuable discovery in connection with the serum treatment of pigs suffering from swine fever; and, if so, whether he will state the nature of such discovery?
The chief veterinary officer of the Board has for a long time past been conducting experiments in the use of the serum with a view to finding a preventive or cure for swine fever. It is impossible at present to estimate the value of the results recently obtained.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will state how many separate field expperiments are now being made on herds of swine to test the efficiency of serum treatment; whether such experiments are being conducted by the officials of the Board or by the Departmental Committee; and what compensation is being paid to the owners of the herds upon which such experiments are being conducted?
Twelve separate experiments are now under observation. Veterinary officers of the Board are in charge of the experiments, and in some cases where there is a large number of animals to be kept under observation they have the assistance of veterinary practitioners. The Board have no power to pay compensation except for animals slaughtered by their direction under the provisions of the Diseases of Animals Acts.
I trust the right hon. Gentleman will bear in mind that it is in the interests of public health this work is being conducted, and can the right hon. Gentleman make any statement as to payments to those whose herds are being experimented on?
I will bear that in mind.
Disinfecting Hides
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether it has been proved to the satisfaction of his Department that the formic-mercury process of disinfecting hides and skins is inefficacious as a means of destroying the germs of anthrax and foot-and-mouth diseases in such articles?
I am informed that the result of extensive inquiry and research is to show that the process in question cannot be regarded as practicable and effective. I would refer the hon. Gentleman particularly to the report of the Royal Medical Research Department of Coblenz, published last year.
Questions
Victoria Tower Gardens
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if he will state when it is expected that the extension of the Victoria Tower Gardens will be thrown open to the public; whether their completion was promised for the summer of 1913; how long the public, including the many poor people living in the narrow courts and streets in the rear of the new Millbank boulevard, have been excluded from the old part of these gardens; whether the delay is due to the fact that the railings for the new part of the garden are not ready; when the new railings were ordered; will the new railings be of the same pattern as the old; and whether, in certain foreign and Colonial cities, it has been found possible to-maintain public gardens of great amenity and beauty without any railings at all?
1. I informed the House on the 23rd April, 1912, that the garden could not be completed before the summer of 1913. Delay, however, occurred in obtaining possession of the ground. The garden was closed to the public in November last. 2. The new railings were ordered on the 22nd of January. They are not of the same pattern as the old; an entirely new design has been made. 3. The First Commissioner would welcome any information from the right hon. Gentleman as to the maintenance of similar gardens abroad, but he does not think it would be advisable to abolish the railings enclosing the Victoria Tower Garden. He will consider the question of opening the garden before the railings are fixed.
London Building Trade Dispute
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the- East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether, in view of the present prolonged dispute in the London building trade, he is prepared to consider the advisability of proceeding with necessary work by the employment of direct labour, and thus adopt, the policy followed by most public authorities of doing their work for themselves and saving contractors' profits?
This question has been considered, but the First Commissioner fears he does not see sufficient reason for altering the present policy of the Department.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this dispute has now been on for twenty-one weeks, and does he not think it is about time the First Commissioner stepped in to do the work instead of allowing it to be idle?
I do not think that arises out of the question on the Paper.
National Insurance Act
Panel Chemists
asked the hon. Member for St. George's- in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commissioners, whether his attention has been called to the recent meeting of the Salford Insurance Committee, at which it was stated that insured persons were not getting the best treatment, as was seen by special reports which had been issued; that the Drug Fund was not sufficient; that those doctors who had been charged with excessive prescribing had since dropped their prescriptions to an enormous extent; and that there was thus a danger of insured patients not getting the best treatment; and whether the Commissioners have decided to conduct an investigation on the spot, as requested by the committee?
My right hon. Friend is not aware that any statement was made in the course of the meeting in question to the effect that insured persons were not getting the best treatment. Attention was drawn, according to the newspaper report of the discussion to the necessity for safeguarding the rights of insured persons in the matter of proper and sufficient medicines, but my right hon. Friend has no reason for apprehending that action taken by the insurance committee to check extravagant prescribing will hinder them in the performance of their duty to protect these rights.
May I hand the hon. Gentleman a newspaper report which definitely states that they are not getting proper treatment, and would the hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question, as to whether the Commissioners have decided to conduct an investigation on the spot?
No. An investigation is being held in the whole of Lancashire into the question of druggists' accounts.
asked whether the Commissioners have advised the Birmingham committee that the final balance for last year is only £400 with which to meet a balance of £5,000 owing to the panel chemists of that area for 1913?
As I have previously explained there is available to meet the cost of chemists' bills in any area not only the amount credited to the Drug Funds of the committee, but also the amount of any surcharges which may be made by the committee in respect of extravagant prescribing. In the case referred to an investigation is already in progress, and it cannot therefore at present be stated what sums will ultimately be available towards the balance of accounts in question.
asked whether the panel chemists of Aberdeen City have only received 52½per cent. of the amounts due for the quarter ending April, 1914; and whether the panel chemists of Aberdeen County have only received 16s. in the £?
The figures mentioned by the hon. Member are approximately correct, but as he will be aware from my replies to many similar questions, such payments are only advances in anticipation of the annual settlement provided for in the agreement into which the chemists have entered.
When will the hon. Member be able to tell us whether the chemists' accounts for last year will be discharged in full?
A complete settlement has been made already with chemists in certain areas, and in others investigation is proceeding.
When will the investigation be completed for all?
It is quite impossible to tell. It does not rest with the Commissioners, it rests between the committees and the chemists in the particular areas.
Will it be finished in 1918?
Outlay
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commissioners, if he will say what is the outlay on national insurance at the present time and what is the number of persons insured; whether he can give the corresponding figures for Germany; and whether it is still the contention of the Government that the National Insurance Act was conceived on a more generous scale than similar legislation in Germany?
Approximately, fourteen million persons are now insured under the Acts. As regards the other points raised in the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the Estimates for the current year, and to the White Paper on Sickness and Invalidity Insurance in Germany, of which I am sending him copies.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the question I asked was: What is the annual outlay on national insurance, and can he give us the figure?
I am sending the hon. Gentleman the precise account of the outlay in the Estimates.
Sanatorium Benefit
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to statements made at a recent meeting of the county of Lanark insurance committee by the chairman of the sanatorium benefit sub-committee to the effect that a stringency had arisen with regard to funds which would make it necessary that the committee should exercise some discrimination in the future with regard to applications, and that the committee could not view with satisfaction the possibility that they might have to refuse in future applications by workers who, having paid contributions, were morally, if not legally, entitled to the benefit; and, if so, whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
The Statute lays upon insurance committees the duty of discriminating between applications for sanatorium benefit, in the sense that they are bound to take into account the circumstances of each individual case in considering what form of treatment to recommend. Their duty in this respect has not in any way altered since the commencement of the Act.
Questions
Pistols Act
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a case at the Central Criminal Court in which it was shown that pistols are now made a certain length for the purpose of evading the restrictions on their sale imposed by the Pistols Act; whether he has information to the effect that these weapons, which can be sold to minors, are capable of taking human life; whether the police have any record of fatalities caused by them; and whether he can hold out any hope of being able to introduce amending legislation in the near future?
My attention has been called to the case in question. There is no doubt that pistols are manufactured and sold with long barrels for the purpose of escaping the requirements of the Pistols Act, and that they are dangerous weapons in the hands of children. Fatalities occur from time to time, but no recent figures are available. I hope the Act may be amended when time can be found for that purpose.
Princetown Prison (Officers' Petition)
asked when an answer will be given to the petition presented last November by the officers of His Majesty's prison, Princetown, respecting hours on duty and other matters?
A decision has not yet been arrived at, but an answer will be given to the petition as soon as possible. I may add that the matter has been delayed pending the consideration of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service.
Traffic Committee Recommendations
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is yet in a position to state if any recommendations of the Select Committee on the traffic question, which sat last year, have been dealt with; if so, whether he will state which of them have been carried out; and when the House will have an opportunity of fully discussing the Report?
As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on the 18th of May to the hon. Member for Bedford. I will send him a copy. The latter part of the question should be addressed to the Prime Minister.
Post Office
Wireless Telegraphy
asked the Postmaster-General whether his Department are considering the possibility of the general use of wireless telegraphy for certain of the local purposes of the United Kingdom; and whether he purposes carrying out the extension of underground lines which certain provincial towns are demanding?
The matters referred to are constantly receiving the attention of my advisers; but it would be premature at present to attempt to determine how far wireless telegraphy might be brought into general use for such local purposes of the United Kingdom as my hon. Friend has in mind. The experience to be gained from the wireless communication which it is proposed to establish between stations near Newcastle-on-Tyne and Stonehaven will be valuable in this connection. With the completion of the underground cables from London to the landing places of the foreign cables there will, so far as can at present be seen, be no need to extend further the main underground telegraph system, but where the telegraph overhead routes between large centres are locally congested the wires will be put underground.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the wireless system between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, which his predecessor suggested instead of underground wires, is in actual operation and is being successfully carried on?
A site has been obtained at Stonehaven for the erection of masts and buildings, but some time must elapse before it can come into working order.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that that dispenses with the necessity for underground wires between Dundee and Aberdeen?
I think it will take the place of them, although it is only required when the overhead wires are out of order through storms, and then wireless telegraphy will take their place.
May I ask whether Stonehaven was got during the recent pleasant tour?
I took it into consideration a good deal before that. I will take an opportunity of looking at it.
Officers' quarters.
asked the Postmaster-General whether the result of the recent high-speed wireless telegraphy demonstration in the United Kingdom was of such a nature as to convince the experts of his Department that it might be preferable in the near future to use wireless telegraphy for telephonic communication between distant towns in the United Kingdom, and so obviate the expense of the maintenance of land lines?
I should be sorry to-commit myself to a definite opinion on this-question at present. The demonstration referred to had no bearing on the question of the use of wireless telegraphy for telephonic purposes.
Glasgow Postmen
asked the Postmaster-General whether in the southeastern district, Glasgow, the early duty postmen whose duty normally terminates at 12.45 p.m. on Saturdays are kept two hours later every fourth Saturday without any extra payment for this extra duty; whether the south-eastern district office is the only one of the six district offices in. Glasgow in which such an arrangement exists; and whether he will arrange that extra remuneration, shall be provided for early duty postmen who may be called on to perform extra duty?
I am informed that the attendances of the postmen who perform the collection in question amount on an average to 7½ hours each Saturday and to forty-six hours per week. The duty is divided among thirty-two postmen of whom four attend each Saturday, each man being thus on this duty once in eight weeks. In these circumstances the-question of payment for extra duty does not arise.
Do I understand the extra duty is performed?
No. What happens is that each man is on forty-six hours per week, but is liable to perform forty-eight.
Is that the same as in the other divisions in Glasgow?
I am afraid I do not carry all that information in my mind, but if my hon. Friend puts down a question I will get the information for him.
Parcel Post (Great Britain and China)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is in a position to make any statement with regard to the parcel post service between Great Britain and China via Siberia?
A parcel post service between Great Britain and China by way of Siberia was instituted on the 1st of October last, and is working satisfactorily.
Tipton (Hours of Opening)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will give instructions for the hours of the Tipton Post Office to be extended in view of the importance of this industrial centre, which has, a population of 31,756, the greater part of whom are engaged in the various manufacturing industries; and, if he is not in favour of such extension, will he consent to receive a deputation thereon?
The hours of business at the Tipton head post office are those which are in force at the majority of similar offices throughout the United Kingdom, and are considered adequate to meet the general requirements of the district. I am not prepared to extend them, and, in the circumstances, I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by my receiving a deputation on the matter.
Telegraphic Service
asked whether any steps have been taken with regard to effecting a substantial reduction in the rates for ordinary and Press telegrams between this country and China and Japan as a result of the postal and telegraphic conference held at Tokio in February, 1913?
Substantial reductions were made on the 1st September last, the ordinary rates to China and Japan being reduced from 4s. 5d. to 3s. 6d., and from 4s. 10d. to 3s. 11d., respectively, and the Press rates from Is. 5½d. to 1s. 2d., and from 1s. 7d. to 1s. 3d., respectively.
Telephone Service
asked to what extent the cheap rate for telephone service in rural districts has been availed of: and if many applicants are still waiting for the service to be installed?
About 1,710 rural party line subscribers' telephones are at present working in over 300 districts, and about 700 additional installations are in course of completion. A number of proposals for new party lines are also being dealt with.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the girl operator in sole charge of the Doagh telephone exchange has been in charge of that exchange for some years, and receives remuneration at 3s. per week and the free use of an empty house, that the exchange includes five business houses and two call offices, and requires a continuous day and night service; whether any allowance is made for a fire in the call office in cold weather and a light at night; and whether, in view if the inadequacy of such payment, he will favourably consider the grant of some increase?
The Doagh telephone exchange is in charge of a male caretaker-operator, who is solely responsible for the service and provides any necessary assistance. The remuneration, which includes expenditure for heating and lighting, is correctly stated, and is in accordance with the general scheme of remuneration at small exchanges where the traffic is insufficient to justify the employment of regular post office staff. It will, however, be shortly increased as from the 2nd February last, in accordance with the recommendations of the recent Parliamentary Committee.
Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that there is a male and not a female operator in charge?
Yes, that is my information.
Is it correct that the male operator receives 3s. a week?
I am informed that he did so until the 2nd February; at any rate, his increase dates back to the 2nd February.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiries, because the operator informed me that she was a female?
Sub-Postmasters' Assistants (Wagks)
asked the Postmaster-General whether the Committee it is proposed to set up will have power to deal with the wages of scale-pay sub-postmasters' assistants?
The answer is in the negative. As I stated in the House on the 10th instant the Committee we are setting up is for the purpose of examining into the Report of the Holt Committee, and the issues raised upon it in the course of the Debate. The Holt Committee did not deal with the conditions and wages of sub-postmasters' assistants.
Will the right lion. Gentleman apply the Fair-Wages Clause in connection with these officials?
That raises a different question altogether. The question was whether they came under the survey of the Holt Committee; they did not, and therefore they could not be reviewed by the new Committee.
Questions
Enfield Education Committee
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Enfield Urban District Council, in appointing its education committee, has failed to comply with the provisions of the scheme adopted under Section 17 of the Education Act, 1902, in that it has appointed no representatives of higher education, secondary education, provided and non-provided schools, as directed by the scheme; and what steps will be taken to secure that the provisions of the scheme are duly observed?
I have no information to show that the Enfield Urban District Council has failed to comply with the provisions of the scheme establishing its education committee. In these circumstances, the point raised in the second part of the question does not arise. The Board have no power to interpret the provisions of schemes for the constitution of education committees.
Bishoprics Bill
asked whether the Government intend to give facilities for the Bishoprics Bill which has passed the House of Lords this Session?
J fear the Government cannot give facilities for this Bill unless they are assured that it will be substantially unopposed.
Will the Prime Minister promise that the Bill shall not be suddenly starred in the last days of the Session, as Bills of a similar character were last Session?
It will not be, unless the conditions to which I referred are fulfilled.
Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1913
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can inform the House what has been the effect of the increases in rates sanctioned by the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1913; and whether any railway has found it possible to recoup under this enactment the increased labour charges it was intended to countervail?
I have read statements by the chairman or general managers of certain railways with regard to this matter, but I have no official information, and I would remind the hon. Member that the question is at present before the Railway and Canal Commission.
Labour Exchanges (Domestic Servants)
asked if the Labour Exchanges supply hotels, institutions, or private houses with domestic servants?
Vacancies for domestic servants in hotels and institutions, are dealt with by Labour Exchanges. Managers of Labour Exchanges have instructions not to deal with vacancies for resident domestic servants in private houses, but the juvenile department of a limited number of Exchanges have been allowed, on the advice and subject to the supervision of Juvenile Advisory Committees, or in co-operation with education authorities exercising powers under the Education (Choice of Employment) Act, to deal with vacancies of this nature in the case of juveniles.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that that is rather taking business out of the hands of agencies formed for that special purpose? And does the Department make itself responsible for the personal character which is considered indispensable in such cases?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman has read into my answer what really is not there. For instance, I specifically stated that Labour Exchanges do not deal with domestic servants; they are left to private agencies.
Food Prices
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give the figures showing the rise in food prices since 1907?
The Board of Trade index number of the retail prices of twenty-three articles of food in London showed an increase of 9.3 per cent. between 1907 and 1913. According to returns from seventy-seven provincial towns, relating to eleven articles only the percentage increase during the same period was 8.4.
Pauperism (Reduction)
asked the President of the Local Government Board what reduction in indoor and outdoor pauperism has taken place in England and Wales since the Old Age Pensions Act came into operation?
The number of indoor paupers on the 1st January, 1909 (the date when old age pensions began) was 266,366; on the 1st January last the number was 243,913, a reduction of 22,453. The number of outdoor paupers on the 1st January, 1909, was 563,790; on the 1st January last the number was 384,409, a reduction of 179,381. These figures do not include insane and casual paupers. With respect to aged paupers, the most recent count before the Old Age Pensions Act came into operation was made in 1906. The total number of paupers over 70 years of age has fallen from 229,474 in 1906 to 57,048 on the 1st January last, a reduction of 75 per cent.; of these, the number of indoor cases has fallen from 61,378 to 48,103, a reduction of 22 per cent., while outdoor cases have decreased from 168,096 to 8,945, a reduction of no less than 95 per cent.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the cost of pauperism has gone down?
I must have notice of that.
Does the right hon. Gentleman ascribe the diminution in the number of paupers entirely to the effect of the Insurance Act?
No; it is mainly due to old age pensions, as far as the aged and outdoor paupers are concerned.
Sheriffs of Counties
asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government intends to rescind the Resolution of the House of 1689 regarding the nomination of Members of Parliament as sheriffs of counties?
The answer is in the negative.
Was this Resolution passed in order to protect Members of Parliament from an onerous office, or to circumscribe the area of selection?
The Resolution dates back to 1689. I cannot conjecture-what its purpose was.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think the matter still of sufficient importance to be worth his attention?
No, Sir.
Duchy of Lancaster
asked the Prime Minister, as representing the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, how many livings are in the gift of the Duchy in the West Riding of Yorkshire; and what is the amount of income of each benefice and the nature of the security in each case?
There are-seven Duchy livings in the West Riding of the county of York, particulars concerning which will be circulated with the Votes.[ See Written Answers this date. ]
asked the Prime Minister, as representing the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, if he will state what is the date of the lease to John Rhodes of the minerals under the estate in the borough of Pontefract, and including the field now in use by the Pontefract Cricket Club; whether he is aware that damage has been caused to the playing pitch through subsidence, caused by underground workings; and whether, in view of the revenues obtained from coal royalties, any compensation can be granted for the loss sustained by a voluntary athletic club?
The field now in use by the Pontefract Cricket Club is included in a lease to the late Mr. John Rhodes, of 20th June, 1911; the minerals thereunder are demised by a lease of 25th September, 1909. The sub-lease of the cricket ground was granted by a former Duchy lessee. Last autumn the president of the cricket club was informed that claims for compensation should be made against the immediate lessor, if the terms of the sub-lease justified such claim, but not against the Duchy revenues.
Coal Miners (Northumberland)
asked the Prime Minister whether any representations have been made to the Government to the effect that the three-shift system in coal-mining in Northumberland affects the miners or their dependants adversely, and that in consequence dissatisfaction with the system exists in that district; whether he can say if any attempts have been made by employers to minimise the inconvenience; and whether he will give a day for the discussion of the matter?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. The Government have not received any representations in this matter, but they are aware that dissatisfaction is felt by the workmen with the three-shift system, and that this due, in part at any rate, to the inconvenience and discomfort caused when members of the same household work in different shifts and come home at different hours. I am given to understand that' arrangements are made as far as possible to have the workers of the same family in only one or two of the shifts, so as to mitigate the inconvenience. The matter is not one in which I have any power to intervene, and I am afraid it will not be possible to give a day for its discussion.
Government of Ireland Bill
Irish Parliament (Powers)
asked the Prime Minister whether, under the provisions of the Government of Ireland Bill, the Irish Parliament will be entitled to organise, control, or maintain an armed Volunteer force; and, if not, what steps he proposes to take in order to disband the Irish National Volunteers or take them under direct Imperial control before the Bill is put in operation?
The reply to the first paragraph is in the negative. As already stated by my right, hon. Friend, the action of this force and of the Ulster Volunteer Force does not cease to engage the attention of the Government.
Arising out of that answer, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, under the provisions of the Government of Ireland Bill, it will not be competent for the Irish Government, after six years, to organise, equip, and arm a constabulary force in any way they please?
A constabulary force—yes.
Will the right hon. Gentleman state in whose hands the government of Ireland is at the present moment?
In the hands of His Majesty's Government.
Why does not the Government enforce the law in Ireland as they did in the recent South Wales labour troubles?
I do not quite understand my hon. Friend's question.
Is it not competent for any citizens to band themselves together to uphold the law?
It depends on the law of the land, which the hon. Member knows as well as I do.
Volunteer Forces
asked the Prime Minister whether any instructions have been given to Sir A. Paget or Sir N. Macready with regard to the relations between the Regular forces and the Irish National Volunteers in the event of the Government deciding to coerce Ulster into acceptance of the Government of Ireland Bill?
No, Sir.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the propriety of advising His Majesty to issue an Order in Council under the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act, 1907, for the constitution in North and South Ireland, respectively, of two divisions of Territorials, and so retaining for the service of the Crown and for completing the Territorial establishment the bodies of disciplined men now in existence in that island?
My hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion will receive careful consideration, but the particular procedure suggested is not applicable to the case.
General Macready
asked the Prime Minister if General Macready has now returned to the War Office; and, if so, whether he has been relieved of his special duties in Ulster?
The answer to the first part is in the affirmative and to the second part in the negative.
Is there any intention of sending General Macready back to Ulster?
I cannot say that—when he is needed.
Amendment Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether the assurance given to the Irish Nationalist party on 10th June by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Government of Ireland Amendment Bill would contain not more than the Government's offer of temporary exclusion by county option in Ulster was made on behalf of the Government?
I know of no such assurance.
Is the report that has appeared in many of the papers during the last few days incorrect?
I do not know to what report the hon. Gentleman refers.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is authorised to state what the Government of Ireland Amendment Bill will contain before that Bill is introduced into the House of Lords or the House of Commons?
I am not aware to what the hon. Member refers. If it is to the statements on 12th May, the speech in the House of my right hon. Friend on that date was made on behalf of the Government.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman see the reported speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 10th June, making this statement as from the Government?
Yes; I have not got it in mind.
House of Commons (Session)
asked the Prime Minister whether, taking into account the poor quality and tedium of work transacted during the dog days, and out of consideration for those Members whose children will otherwise be deprived of the companionship of their fathers during their school holidays, he will consider the advisability of arranging that this House shall not sit during the months of August and September?
While I sympathise with the hon. Member's desire, I fear, in the present circumstances, his suggestion is hardly practicable.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's policy in this matter been entirely actuated by the bachelors of this House?
Scottish Home Rule
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the resolution passed by the Edinburgh City Council calling upon the Government to proceed with a measure of Home Rule for Scotland; and whether he can now say when he proposes to introduce such a measure?
As regards the first part of this question, I have seen what has appeared on this subject in the public Press. As regards the latter part I can add nothing to what I have already stated on this subject.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since the Edinburgh City Council passed this resolution it has also been passed by every important burgh in Scotland; is he also aware that the Government promised to introduce such a Bill? Why, then, cannot he tell us the date on which we may expect it?
Because the programme of the present Session is completely full.
Does the Government propose to introduce the measure next Session?
I cannot make any statement at present as to what will happen next Session.
Redistribution Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government's offer is still open to confer with the Opposition as to the basis and passage of a Redistribution Bill?
The answer is in the affirmative.
Will the offer be repeated to-day during the course of the Debate? Will not the Prime Minister give permission to those of his colleagues who speak in the course of the Debate to renew this offer, with, if possible, greater emphasis?
My colleagues have the freest hand in the matter.
Westminster Abbey (Coronation Stone)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the recent bomb explosion in Westminster Abbey and the damage done thereby to the Coronation chair and stone, he will consider the desirability of taking the necessary steps for the removal of the Coronation stone for safer custody to Scotland; and whether this restoration can be effected on the approaching 600th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn?
I fear I do not see my way to accede to my hon. Friend's suggestion.
Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed that His Majesty, on a recent visit to the French Republic, actually returned to the French Republic ornaments that one of his predecessors had purloined from the French? In view of the fact that His Majesty is now going to pay a visit to Scotland, would it not be a graceful act to return this stone?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the strong feeling in Scotland—which has existed for many generations—on the subject?
The Kings of England have been crowned in this chair for something like 500 years.
"The stone; not the chair!"
The Irish Kings were crowned on it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider, as an alternative to this proposal, the handing over of this stone to the London Scottish Volunteers, who were raised originally for the purpose of keeping an eye on that stone?
Rating Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to introduce the Bill for dividing the rateable value of land so as to distinguish the value attributable to houses, buildings and other improvements, and the value attributable to the land without the houses, buildings, or other improvements in the present Session?
It is intended to include Clauses for this purpose in the Revenue Bill, which will be circulated shortly.
When are we going to see this Bill?
Very soon. I said last week that the Bill would be circulated some time this week.
Will there be a Rating Bill as well as a Revenue Bill?
No, not this year.
British Army
Army Canteen Case
asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the comments of Mr. Justice Darling in a recent trial with regard to the conduct of Lord Saye and Sele in reference to the obtaining of Army contracts on behalf of a firm of brewers for whom he acted; and whether, seeing that Lord Saye and Sele is at present a member of the Government, he will say whether any action is proposed to be taken in the matter, and the nature of the same?
I have seen the report of the comments of the learned judge. I understand that Lord Saye and Sele intends to make a statement on the subject in another place at an early date.
asked the Secretary of State for War if Colonel C. H. T. Whitaker, who was recently sentenced to six months' imprisonment in connection with the Army canteens case, will be deprived of his pension in consequence of this conviction?
A decision on this matter will be announced as soon as is possible, but I cannot yet make any statement.
Can the hon. Gentleman say when the statement will be made?
Very shortly.
I will repeat the question this day week.
Regular Establishment
asked the Secretary of State for War the number of men required to bring the Regular Army up to its proper establishment; and has he reason to believe that this deficiency will be increased or decreased by the end of the year?
The deficit on the 1st May, which is the last date for which figures are available, was 10,793. As regards the second part of the question, recruiting is improving, but the heavy wastage which is in prospect will, it is feared, prevent the existing deficit from being very materially reduced during the period mentioned in the question.
Can we have an assurance that the standard will not be reduced without the House having an opportunity of discussing it at any rate?
Yes, Sir.
Crimean Veteran
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Mr. W. Robinson, of 5, Lawn Gardens, Hanwell, Middlesex, late Royal Engineers, a Crimean veteran, and in receipt of 5s. a week for veteran's service, has, owing to the receipt of an old age pension, been deprived of his veteran's pension; and whether he would see his way to restoring, for the few remaining years of his life, the above pension to this old servant of the State?
I understand that the 5s. a week in question was a grant from the Veterans' Relief Fund, and that it has been stopped for the reason stated. The Army Council have no power to intervene in the matter, but I would point out to the hon. and gallant Member that Robinson receives 7s. a week as an Army pension, in addition to the 5s. a week as an old age pension.
Royal Scots (Sergeant-Instructor's Widow)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has considered the case of Mrs. Bright, widow of the late Sergeant Frank Bright, sergeant-instructor to the 8th Battalion the Royal Scots; and whether, in view of the fact that Sergeant Bright died of pneumonia contracted in the actual performance of his military duties and lost thereby 17¼ years' qualifying service towards pension, he can grant a temporary pension to Mrs. Bright, who has to support three children under eight years of age, at least equivalent to the actuarial sum by which the public has profited owing to the premature death of this non-commissioned officer?
I regret that I see no prospects of obtaining funds to extend the grant of pensions to the widows of soldiers who die of disease not contracted on active service; but I am glad to say that the Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation, to whom Mrs. Bright's case has been represented, have been able to grant her an allowance of half-a-crown a week for each of her children.
Questions
Post Office Estimates
asked the Prime Minister whether he will allow time on the Post Office Estimates for the consideration of postal service matters, especially with regard to the proposal of the Post Office authorities to deprive the people of the direct postal service by motor car between Thurso and Skerray and Tongue, Sutherland, a service which has either by coach or car existed for many years?
Two days have already been given to the Post Office Estimates. If there is a generally expressed desire for a further day, I have no doubt it can be arranged through the usual channels.
Government Employés (Pay and Pension)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the grievances of employés at the Government ordnance and small-arms factories, with regard to pay, pension and promotion, have recently been under his careful consideration; and whether, in the event of a Royal Commission, Select Committee, or Hybrid Committee being appointed by the Prime Minister on behalf of His Majesty's Government to further inquire into the position of employés in the Post Office, he will represent to the Government the desirability of including within the scope of inquiry of any such Commission or Committee the position of employés at Woolwich Arsenal and Enfield Small Arms Factory?
With regard to the first part of the question, ample and systematic opportunities are afforded to these employés for bringing any grievances to the personal notice of the Army Council, and full consideration is given to all grievances so brought. As regards the latter part, if the hon. Member will refer to the speech of the Postmaster-General on 10th June, he will see that the Government intend to set up a body to inquire as to the future relations of the State with its employés, and upon the Report of this body action will be taken. The Committee which the Government are setting up for the purpose of inquiring into the Report of the Holt Committee is an ad hoc body, and I do not think it desirable that the scope of its inquiry should be extended.
Will the Inquiry include dockyard employés?
The General Inquiry?
Yes.
Yes, all employés.
Non-Provided Schools (Transfer)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he has sanctioned the transfer of four non-provided schools from the Marquess of Londonderry to the Durham County Council; if so, whether he can state the price originally demanded and the amount actually paid for these schools as consideration for the transfer; and what is the total number of authorised school places in these schools?
I assume that the hon. Member refers to certain schools in Sea-ham. One of these schools was transferred in 1909, and two others (one of which has since been divided into two schools) in 1913 and 1914. As the premises were acquired by the local education authority under Section 19 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, the Board's consent to the terms was not required, and I have no information as to the amount originally demanded and actually paid. The schools are recognised as providing accommodation for 2,809 children.
asked the President of the Board of Education, whether he is aware that the provided school of Newington St. Mary, in the borough of Southwark, is about to be closed, the children transferred to council schools, and the teachers taken, into the service of the local education authority; whether, when this school has thus ceased to exist, he will strike it off the grant list and off the list of schools which are necessary, and must therefore be maintained and kept efficient by the local education authority; whether, if any attempt to re-open this school is made at some future date, he will treat it as a new school subject to all the provisions of Sections 8 and 9 of the Act of 1902; whether he has been informed that the transfer of the scholars and teachers to the local education authority is intended to be only temporary, the school retaining its corporate existence whilst its premises are re-built; whether he will inform the managers and the local education authority that such conduct is an infraction of Section 7 (1) (d) of the Act of 1902, which requires the managers of a non-provided school to provide premises free of charge for the school to meet in; and whether he will warn the local education authority that any expenditure they incur in providing temporary premises for a non-provided school is illegal?
I understand that the local education authority have issued notices for the provision of temporary council schools to accommodate some of the children disturbed by the proposed rebuilding of the Church school of St. Mary's, Newington, the remainder of the children being distributed among existing council schools. The operations of rebuilding have not yet commenced, and the notices have not yet expired. The question whether in these circumstances notices will have to be issued by the managers of the Church school before it is reopened in the new premises, has not yet arisen, but I will consider the point carefully. If the new temporary council schools are provided in compliance with the procedure contemplated by Sections 8 and 9 of the Act of 1902, which provides for an appeal against the local education authority's proposal, I do not see how the local education authority's action can be regarded as illegal.
Royal Navy
Raising Submarines
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will say what improvements, if any, have been adopted for more speedily raising submarines, in view of the difficulties encountered in recent accidents?
I have nothing to add to the previous statements which have been made on this subject.
Revaccination
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it has been brought to his notice that, during the naval manæeuvres in the Mediterranean at the end of last year, the Vice-Admiral on His Majesty's ship "Collingwood" sent a message to the ships of the first Fleet that it had been brought to his notice that there might be officers and men who had conscientious objections or scruples against revaccination, and that those conscientious scruples were to be accepted, but that those persons were not to be allowed on shore in any port during the cruise for fear of contracting small-pox and thereby quarantining the ship to which they belonged; and whether, in the interests of the service, he will consider the advisability of not penalising conscientious objection, which has been legally recognised since 1898?
Small- pox being not uncommon in Mediterranean ports, vaccination or re-vaccination of officers and men has been ordered where it appeared necessary. Two or three of the men concerned pleaded conscientious objection. The Commander-in-Chief thereupon issued orders directing that no punishment or penalty was to be incurred for declining vaccination, but every precaution was to be taken to prevent any person objecting to vaccination becoming a danger to the ship's company. In pursuance of this, it was considered necessary that, in ports where cases of small-pox are known to exist, such, persons should not be allowed to land* and that they should be subject to such restrictions as would avoid risk of smallpox infection being brought on board. The rights of the conscientious objector are therefore upheld, but due steps have been taken to prevent the observance of them involving a danger to the health and' safety of others.
Dockyards
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty at what date the establishment was introduced in the Works Department in His Majesty's dockyards; and will he give the proportion of the men employed to the men established?
The establishment of Works Department men was introduced during the financial year 1913–14; approximately 11 per cent. of the men have so far been approved for establishment.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the date when establishment was suspended in His Majesty's dockyards; and will he say why it was suspended and when it was resumed?
The establishment was suspended in 1907, and was resumed in 1910. It was suspended because the view was taken that the proportion of established men at the time satisfied the needs of the Service.
Are we to understand that after establishment was introduced the proportion went up or went down?
Of course the whole thing is affected by the very large numbers of men in the yards. The number of men we have in the yards now is larger than ten years ago.
If you have reduced naval estimates in the future does it follow that the establishment then will be reduced?
That I cannot say.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now in a position to state to the House what steps the Government have taken to reduce the number of discharges in His Majesty's dockyards, and will he say when these steps were taken?
Certain readjustments of work as between the yards have been made with a view to the avoidance of discharges as far as possible; but the question is still under consideration, and will, of course, receive close attention.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the First Lord of the Admiralty said they would be reduced?
No. He said we had made such arrangements as would reduce what would otherwise have been large discharges. That has been our effort.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the First Lord of the Admiralty said the effect of this would be that the discharges would be less?
Yes, that is so. The whole matter is still under consideration.
Naval Pensions Committee
asked whether the Committee on Naval Pensions has completed its sittings, and when the Report will be issued?
I do not understand to what Committee the hon. Member refers.
Personnel
asked what were the numbers required to man the Fleet in 1906–7, 1907–8, 1908–9, 1909–10, 1910–11, and 1911–12, respectively, and what was the shortage, if any, at the end of each financial year; will he say in which of these years additions were made to the Fleet; and what was the addition?
As regards the first part of the question I may refer the hon. Member to my answer to him on the 19th December, 1912. The additions made to the fleet each year are given in the First Lord's annual statement which is issued with the Estimates.
Cottages in Rural Districts (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Scottish Board of Agriculture intend to build cottages in rural districts in Scotland; and whether they will eventually take over those cottages built in the meantime by local authorities in Scotland, as was intimated' to be the intention of the Government as regards England and Wales, in the Local Government Board letter of 7th December, 1913, to the chairman of the Somerset County Council?
As the hon. and gallant Member is aware, a Royal Commission on housing in Scotland was appointed in 1912, which, among other matters, has been investigating the conditions of rural housing, and I should like to have their Report before making a statement as to building. As to the second part of the question, no case of the kind referred to has been brought to-my notice.
Does the letter of the-Local Government Board refer to Scotland in the same way as it does to England?
No. The President of the Local Government Board for England has no jurisdiction in Scotland, but, if such a case arose in Scotland, no doubt it would be dealt within the same manner.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know how long the Housing Commission is likely to sit, and when we may expect to get their Report?
No, sir; I am afraid I cannot answer for the Royal Commissioners in the way my hon. Friend desires. They are beyond my control.
When can we have a similar statement for Scotland as the-President of the Local Government Board made last week with regard to England and Wales?
That would depend upon whether the conditions turned out to be similar or not in Scotland.
Post Office Motor Mail Service
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the Post Office authorities propose to do away with the motor mail service between Thurso, Skerray, and Tongue, Sutherland, which has been run for many years, either by coach or motor car; and whether he will use his influence to prevent this being carried out and the people being deprived of the only means of getting direct from Thurso to Skerray and Tongue?
The matter to which my hon. Friend refers appears to be one of Post Office administration, and any questions or representations regarding it should therefore be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General.
Is it not my right hon. Friend's duty to protect the people in Scotland against the Postmaster-General?
No, Sir; nor do I think they need such protection. In this particular case, as far as my limited information goes, the district generally benefits, although there may be a certain limited number of people who, under particular circumstances, may not benefit.
Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman refuses to give particulars of this part of the contract?
Cattle Diseases (Ireland) Act
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he has taken legal proceedings against any persons for offences under the Cattle Diseases (Ireland) Act, and, if so, will he name the offenders and give the results of the prosecutions; and whether, in cases of conviction, he has power to withhold compensation for animals slaughtered, by order of his Department, which belonged to persons convicted of concealing the existence of foot-and-mouth disease amongst their stock?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. On Thursday last, in answer to a question put by the hon. Member, I gave names and particulars of the recent cases.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease has taken place during the week-end in Ireland?
I have received notice of a question on that point.
Foot-and-Mouth Disease (Ireland)
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether the references made by him in his address at the meeting of the Council of Agriculture in Ireland to a recent speech of the Duke of Devonshire were due to that speech having been likely to create a false impression as to the prevalence of foot-and-mouth disease in Ireland, and particularly in the South; whether there is any evidence or reasonable grounds for suspicion that farmers in county Waterford have deliberately concealed the existence of the disease; and how many years have elapsed since any case of the disease was found in the county Waterford?
The reply to the first part of this question is in the affirmative, and to the second in the negative. No case of foot-and-mouth disease has been confirmed in county Waterford for the past thirty years.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any information with regard to the alleged outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Ireland?
I received a telegram late on Saturday night stating that the Department's inspector at Belfast had stopped four cattle belonging to a cargo from county Fermanagh. One of the principal inspectors was at once dispatched to Belfast, and a telegram was dispatched to my right hon. Friend asking him to send over an English inspector to co-operate with the Department's inspector. The Department's inspector wired, after examining the cattle, that he was not able to say that the disease was foot-and-mouth, but rather thought it was not. The English inspector, on examining the cattle, was not able to say that the disease was foot-and-mouth. The chief inspector has gone to Belfast, and is there now, and the district from which the cattle came in county Fermanagh has been examined by six inspectors as to the state of health in the locality. I expect a reply before the evening is out on that point, but the House will understand that at the present moment there has been no decision, although four inspectors have been present, by any one of the four, that the disease was foot-and-mouth.
Is it not a fact that foot-and-mouth disease can be seen and verified even by a layman, without inspectors certifying it; and is it not a fact that in county Fermanagh what is called "dirty mouth" has been very prevalent for a length of time, and that cattle were suspected of foot-and-mouth disease last year because of this "dirty mouth" existing? [Laughter.]
This is not a laughing matter, and I do not think that hon. Members should treat an outbreak of disease in Ulster as of no account. This is one of the most serious things that has happened in the county. I am not able to say that foot-and-mouth disease is so easily diagnosed as my hon. Friend seems to think, and it is very often a difficult matter. I am with the hon. Member in his second proposition that this disease in the counties of Fermanagh, Monaghan, and Armagh was two years ago mistaken for foot-and-mouth, and a great deal of trouble was caused.
Is the President of the Board of Agriculture satisfied with what has taken place in sending his inspector over; and are there any restrictions now with regard to any cattle being sent over from Ireland to this country?
Yes. The statement made by my right hon. Friend is one in which I concur. Immediately we got information of the trouble in Ireland, which was communicated very promptly by the Irish Department, we at once took steps to have any animals likely to come over to England placed under close inspection, and we stopped the week-end shipments as far as possible for the time being. We hope that the suspicions aroused on Saturday have been groundless, and that the trade may go on as before. I have just received the following telegram, dated Dublin, 1.30:—
"Have replied further to Board's telegram of yesterday to the effect that in contacts with eight of the fifteen cattle forming consignment, in which four suspects included have been traced and examined with satisfactory results, and that examination of in contacts with remaining seven, which has been delayed owing to difficulty in identifying sellers, will it is expected be completed in the course of to-day. A11 the fifteen came from Graham, Maguires Bridge, who collected them from various local sources of origin all in county Fermanagh or border parts of adjoining counties."
In view of the alarm and anxiety which this announcement will cause to English stock-keepers, will the right hon. Gentleman make a more precise statement as to the nature of this disease at Question Time to-morrow?
I hope that I may be able to do it on the Adjournment of the House to-night.
Standing Committees (Chairmen's Panel)
Mr. Stuart-Wortley reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Mr. Stuart-Wortley to act as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Milk and Dairies Bill); and Sir David Brynmor Jones to act as Chairman of Standing Committee C (in respect of the Patents and Designs Bill and the National Insurance Act, 1911 (Part II. Amendment) Bill); and Mr. Arthur Henderson to act as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills (in respect of the Milk and Dairies (Scotland) Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.
Selection (Standing Committees)
Sir Daniel Goddard reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee B (in respect of the Milk and Dairies Bill): Sir Frederick Banbury, Sir Clement Kinloch-Cboke, Mr. Secretary McKenna, Mr. John Robertson, Mr. Solicitor-General, and Mr. Penry Williams; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the said Bill): Sir John Barran, Mr. Herbert Lewis, Mr. Runciman, Mr. Herbert Samuel, Mr. Stanier, and Lord Alexander Thynne.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee: That they had added to Standing Committee B the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Milk and Dairies Bill): Dr. Addison, Mr. Barnston, Sir Godfrey Baring, Mr. Charles Bathurst, Mr. Courthope, Mr. Cecil Harmsworth, Mr. Glyn-Jones, Mr. Lundon, Mr. James Mason, Mr. Thomas Richardson, Mr. Sheehy, Sir John Spear, Mr. George Terrell, Mr. George Thorne, and Sir Harry Verney.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee: That they had added to the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Milk and Dairies (Scotland) Bill); Major Archer-Shee, Mr. Ashley, Mr. Baird, Mr. Blair, Colonel Boles, Mr. Clough, Viscount Duncannon, Sir Henry Hibbert, Mr. Hohler, Mr. John, Mr. M'Ghee, Mr. George Roberts, Sir Outhbert Quilter, Mr. Scanlan, and Sir Samuel Scott.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee C (in respect of the Patents and Designs Bill and the National Insurance Act, 1911 (Part II. Amendment) Bill): Mr. Gardner, Mr. Ellis Griffith, Mr. Hudson, Mr. Jowett, Mr. Thomas Richardson, and Mr. Trevelyan; and had appointed in substitution (in respect of the said Bills): Mr. Attorney-General, Mr. Baldwin, Mr. Hodge, Mr. Charles Roberts, and Mr. Tyson Wilson.
Sir Daniel Goddard further reported from the Committee: That they had added to Standing Committee C the following Fifteen Members (in respect of the Patents and Designs Bill and the National Insurance Act, 1911 (Part II. Amendment) Bill): Mr. Astor, Mr. Carr-Gomm, Mr. Godfrey Collins, Mr. Timothy Davies, Mr. Forster, Mr. Goldsmith, Mr. Hills, Mr. Lewis Haslam, Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson, Sir Arthur Markham, Mr. Patrick Meehan, Mr. O'Shee, Mr. William. Thorne, Mr. Penry Williams, and Mr. Worthington Evans.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Bill Presented
Coal Mines (Nobthumberland) Bill
"To restrict work in Coal Mines to certain hours of the day" Presented by Sir RICHARD COOPER; supported by Mr. Hills and Mr. Leslie Scott; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 24th June, and to be printed. [Bill 284.]
Orders of the Day
Small Landholders (Scotland).—[Salaries.]
Resolution reported, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment of any additional Salaries which may become payable under any Act of the present Session to amend the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, as regards any additional member of the Land Court a salary not exceeding twelve hundred pounds a year out of the Consolidated Fund, and as regards any additional members of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland such salaries or remuneration as the Treasury may sanction out of moneys provided by Parliament."
Resolution agreed to.
Plural Voting Bill
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
I beg to move to leave out the word "now" and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
The avowed purpose of the Bill which we are now asked to read a third time is to alter the provisions of our franchise law which hon. Gentlemen opposite consider presses hardly upon their party. I have listened to a good many Debates upon this particular subject, and throughout I have been struck with the various expressions which hon. Members opposite have found for describing this particular condition of our franchise law. Really, from all they have said about it, one would imagine that the present state of our franchise laws was the invention either of the Evil One or of the Conservative party. It is an historical fact that whenever an alteration has been made in the franchise law the party opposite has been in the majority in this House. Both in 1832, in 1867, and in 1885 the Liberal party was in a majority in this House. The last alteration was made by Mr. Gladstone's Government. That alteration made a great increase in the number of the plural voters in this country. By abolishing the old large divisions of counties and substituting smaller ones, he enormously increased the number of plural voters. When the Bill was before the House of Commons, an Amendment was actually moved by a supporter of the Government of the day to delete the plural voter from its provisions. An Amendment was actually moved in the sense of the Bill which is now before the House. Mr. Gladstone dismissed it in that sort of way in which a Minister so often does dismiss an Amendment by a supporter. He said that it might come some day, but the present time was not expedient for putting it into his Bill, and, when a Division was taken upon the subject, there were only forty Members of the House altogether who voted in favour of abolishing the plural vote. If Mr. Gladstone resisted the abolition of the plural voter at that time, I cannot think that it can be such a bad thing as some of the speeches we have heard from hon. Gentlemen opposite would have us believe.
There is, as a matter of fact, a strong justification for the plural vote. When a man has interests in more than one division in the country, it is quite a fair thing that he should have a voice in the return of the representative for that part of the country. Hon. Members opposite talk as if the House were always engaged in voting on big Government measures, and as if it were simply a matter of counting heads. Of course that is not so, and; it is on the private Bills and the minor public Bills that I think this provision by which a Member has to vote for any division in which he has interest is one that is of vital importance to a man who has business interests in more than one part of the country. Say a man has an office in Bristol and another in Cardiff. If any private Bill legislation comes forward which affects his interest in either of those parts of the country, he would naturally go to his Member of Parliament and ask him to do what he could to protect his interest in the locality, but human and Parliamentary nature being what it is he would go with very much more force to his Member of Parliament if he had a vote for that particular division than if he had not one. That, I think, is the use of the plural voter. Of course, I quite agree that it can be abused. [Cheers.] I am very glad to hear that cheer from hon. Gentlemen opposite. I quite agree that the creation of a number of faggot voters in districts in which they have no particular kind of interest is an abuse, but that is not an aspect of the question on which hon. Gentlemen opposite have been so eloquent, for that use of this provision was made more strongly than has ever been done by anyone else by Cobden and Bright at the time of the Free Trade agitation. They actually got from four to five thousand men from the boroughs to obtain faggot votes by purchasing freeholds in the counties. They had no interest in those counties.; they simply invested£50 or£60 in buying some freeholds, and thus obtained a vote in those counties.
Those people had no vote.
I do not know what that has to do with the point. I say it is, an abuse of the system to give faggot votes in that way, and that abuse was used more largely by Cobden and Bright than anyone else. They obtained from four to five thousand votes in three counties alone in that manner, and their biographers estimate that there would be eight or ten times that number throughout the country. When you come to look at the biographies of Bright and Cobden, both written by men who were in the innermost counsels of the Liberal party, you find that system of procedure was regarded not only with complacency, but even with admiration.
4.0 P.M.
If you want to abolish merely this system I have nothing more to say, but you must not, at the same time, seek to abolish a perfectly legitimate system of voting. This Bill is the first, I believe, which the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education has passed through the House of Commons. It is his first offspring of the kind—at any rate, it is attributed to him—and, knowing what I do of the right hon. Gentleman, I do not see how, taking the Bill as it stands, and we are asked to take it as it stands, he can be proud of it. The effect of it will be absolutely ridiculous—one register at a General Election and another register at a by-election. A Parliament may be elected, a Member of that Parliament may be elected a Minister. He will have been returned at the General Election on one register, he may go back to his constituents on another, and be turned out two or three weeks later, after having been made a Minister. It might, too, happen that parties will be so evenly divided that the one which had come in at the General Election would not be able, after the Ministers had been appointed, to retain a majority in the House. Surely that is reducing our representative system to an absolute farce! The effect of the Bill will, in certain constituencies, be absolutely ridiculous. You may object to the City of London representation, or to university representation, but if you want to kill that form of representation, kill with the sword and not with the dagger of the assassin. The fact is, that without a measure of Redistribution— and the right hon. Gentleman opposite I believe realises that perfectly well—this measure is an absolute farce. We have heard a great deal about Redistribution during the Debate on this and the preceding Plural Voting Bills during the past two years. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said:— —note the delicate distinction— Act of Union a special article was inserted which actually said:—
It is not only in Redistribution that we say alterations ought to be made in the present system. You are proposing to take away the votes of a large number of people in certain instances, and when you are doing that we say you ought at the same time to give voting power to a great many people who are entitled to vote under our present system, but who, owing to accidental circumstances, are unable to exercise their franchise. We say that a soldier or a sailor ought not to go without his vote simply because he is so often moved from one place to another. We say the same thing applies to the fishermen, to the mercantile marine, and to men engaged in the coasting trade. We believe that if these men had the chance of coming on the register it would mean an advantage of thousands of votes to our party. We say when you are dealing with the franchise you ought not to make only those alterations which are entirely for the benefit of your own party, but you ought at the same time to make the alterations for which we ask, and which we believe would be for the benefit of our party. It is often thrown in our teeth that for a great many years the Unionist party had unchecked ascendency in the country, and that they were able to pass any laws they like, without any serious interference from any Second Chamber. Admitting that, during the whole of that time the Unionist party never cooked the franchise to its own profit. [An HON. MEMBER: "It was cooked already!"] In fact, when we set up county councils, and regulated the franchise for them, we established a franchise on the lines advocated by the most extreme among hon. Members opposite. Why did we do that? Why did we never take any advantage of our position, or of the unrestrained power we were said to have had, in order to alter the franchise in our own favour? I will tell you why: Because we considered it was not playing the game. It is that aspect of the case which does not seem to appeal to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. They appear to think it is quite the game to make those alterations of the franchise which tell in their favour, and to make none of those which tell in our favour. It is that state of mind and that feeling that we on this side resent, and it is in the belief that I am voicing the general opinion of those sitting on the benches behind me that I say we resent this Bill as a low-down trick, and I move that it be read a third time this day three months.
I have listened to the speech of the hon. Member opposite with a great deal of interest, and beyond his attributing to us the perpetration of what he called a low-down trick, I have very little exception to take to the arguments he endeavoured to present to this House. He commenced by alluding to the fact that Mr. Gladstone did not see his way in 1884 and 1885 to abolish the plural vote. At that time the plural "vote was not largely used in this country. No doubt the plural vote has existed for a great number of years, but it was not until the extension of the franchise in the counties that a large number of plural votes were ever exercised at any General Election. In the election of 1885 the question of the abolition of the plural vote never came before the electors in any definite form, and Mr. Gladstone thought that it was premature for the House to destroy the plural vote when he was dealing with the franchise at that period. But since that period the facilities of transit have enormously increased, and with that increase there has also been an increase in the abuse of the plural vote, until now the masses of the people of the country who do not possess the plural vote very much resent the exercise of it by those who do possess it. The hon. Member proceeded to allude to the necessity of abolishing other electoral anomalies at the same time as we abolished the plural vote, and remedies for abuses which he thought should find a place on the Statute Book.
Nobody is more anxious to secure electoral reform than I am. The hon. Member alluded to the desirability of enfranchising thousands of fishermen and men of that class whose calling prevented them from being in this country at the time of a General Election. He said that the party opposite would secure thousands of votes from these individuals if they were able to record their votes by proxy, and he was anxious that that principle should be associated with a Bill of this kind. The very first year I came to this House—1893—I introduced a measure of that kind myself. I have always advocated it, be cause I think it is very hard on the fishermen and fishing class that they are, to so large an extent, disfranchised at a General Election. I supported that Bill and these proposals, not because I think that one side or the other is going to be the gainer by the addition of a certain number of men to the register, but as a fair measure of reform as between the electors on the register in the various constituencies. The hon. Member suggested, although he did not go into it very fully, that this Bill ought also to be associated with a Redistribution Bill, and he taunted us on this side of the House that while we had given certain pledges they had been hedged around by conditions. Apparently he regarded our views in respect of Redistribution with some scepticism. At the close of the Second Reading Debate the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) asked me a very definite question, namely, whether it was the intention of the Government to meet the expressed desire of the Opposition, or words to that effect, so as to carry out the principle of one vote one value. I think his words were— jointly by both sides of the House. I say here and now that we are quite prepared to enter into a treaty with the other parties in the House, with a real desire to discuss reasonable proposals, so as to secure a fair Redistribution of seats in the country. The very fact that we have already passed a Home Rule Bill for Ireland, and that we have reduced the over-representation of Ireland from 103 Members down to 42, is, at any rate, an indication that we are anxious to prevent the over-representation of Ireland continuing in this House after the passage of the Home Rule Bill. From this box not only have the speeches to which.the hon. Member referred been made by the present Attorney-General when he was Solicitor-General, by the then Undersecretary for India, who is now the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, but by the Prime Minister and by myself in regard to this matter. Those overtures have never been responded to by hon. Gentlemen opposite. The only real response which has been made by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite was when a question was put to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. He was definitely asked whether he would be a party to the introduction of a Redistribution Bill with the Abolition of Plural Voting Bill, and he replied that he would give exactly the same degree of opposition to a Redistribution Bill as he was giving to the Abolition of Plural Voting Bill.
What he said was that he would give it the same measure of support.
I do not want to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman, and I had perhaps better read his exact words. On 4th July, 1913, he said:— Bill that will pass rapidly through this House. What we do complain about is that every overture we have made in connection with securing not only one man one vote, but one vote one value has met with no response from representative men on the other side of the House. The hon. Gentleman dwelt upon the fact that we were trying to rig the register in our own party interest. It had been said that our policy had been vindictive, unstatesmanlike, and so on. Personally, I am very sorry that the Bill is not bigger than it is. I think it is a blot on the Bill that it does not apply to by-elections, and that it still leaves the plural voter in the preferential position of being able to select, at a General Election, the particular constituency in which he may, at the last moment, record his vote. At the same time we have had our difficulties in connection with the proposals we have submitted to the House, and to enlarge the Bill would have made it practically impossible, in the lifetime of this Parliament, to get rid of the plural vote to which we are committed as a party, and for which we believe we have great support in the country.
The Opposition always regard the plural vote from a somewhat different standpoint than Members on this side of the House. They regard it as being a vote associated with the property qualification which they think has antiquity behind it, which justifies the exercise of the vote in any constituency where that property and those interests exist. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am glad I have not misrepresented their position. We on this side of the House regard the vote as a matter which has been entrusted to individuals, and we look at it from a much more human standpoint. We say that every citizen ought to have an equal voice in the affairs of his country, that everyone who is on the register should count as one and for not more than one, and that no individual should be allowed to record more than one vote. We think that the citizens of this country should all be regarded as equal in respect to voting power, and we say that wealth should no longer obtain in connection with the qualification for the vote. The plural vote is not really based upon property. It does not depend upon the amount of personal property, and, to a very large extent, it does not depend upon, the amount of real property. An individual who happens to be allowed to exercise a plural vote as a rule is the owner of houses in different constituencies. The wealthy have, therefore, a very great advantage over the poor. The wealthy who buy houses in various constituencies have a great advantage over the poor in the votes which they may exercise in connection with the affairs of the country. The wealthy have many weapons whereby they are able to exercise their influence. The poor are almost limited to the exercise of their one vote. The rich man moves about, we will say, from his place of business to a residence in the country. He exercises a vote in connection with the place in which he has his business, and the place where he resides in the country. Working men live often in a suburban area in the constituencies where they have a vote. They do their work in another part of London, but they have no vote there.
They do not pay anything.
They do not pay anything because they have not got property, and therefore do not share the privileges of those who do possess property, and that is our complaint. Again, take the middle classes. Shopkeepers have a real grievance in the fact that large universal providers compete with them, and wherever they put down shops in competition with the local tradespeople they exercise the vote. I know one firm which actually possesses 500 votes in 500 different places, and another which possesses 100 votes.
Kearley.
I believe Lord Devonport possessed very nearly 100 different qualifications at one time before he went to another place.
That is why made him a peer.
But there is no consistency in regard to the principle on which the plural vote has been established. Not only does it not depend exclusively upon wealth, but even the possession of a house in one constituency and a house in another does not necessarily qualify an individual to exercise two votes. For instance, an individual may possess, in the Tower Hamlets, consisting of seven constituencies, seven different qualifications, but he may only vote for one constituency in the Tower Hamlets. A man may possess in Liverpool a qualification in all the five wards, but at the same time he may only be able to exercise one vote at a Parliamentary election. There is no consistency either in regard to the attitude which hon. Members have adopted in regard to their opposition to the plural vote. If they believe in the plural vote, they ought to have been consistent in insisting that in the matter of the Referendum it should be equally applicable. Take, for instance, a great issue such as Home Rule, which they desire to be submitted either to a Referendum or to a General Election. No individual in his senses would ever suggest that one juryman should have a plural vote upon a jury to decide a case in the Law Courts. How is it more sensible that on a question which concerns the country when you are making an appeal to the electors you should allow certain favoured individuals to record more than one vote while you only permit the recording of one vote to the great mass of the community? It seems to me that there is no more justification in a system of that kind than if Members of this House were allowed, because they happened to be privileged individuals, to have their votes in the Division Lobbies counted two or three times over. However, I am somewhat tired of the arguments connected with this Bill, to which I have listened in the last two or three Sessions. I know both sides of the House are constantly asserting that we are promoting it for party interests, and that the Opposition are resisting it for party interest. If we are supporting it for party interests, you: are resisting it for party interests.
That does not make it any better.
Two wrongs do not make a right, but it is not a question as to whether it is going to benefit one party or the other. It is a question as to what is fair between man and man. We believe it is right that everyone who is capable of exercising a sane judgment as to who should represent him should be entitled to one vote and one vote only. On the other hand, hon. Members opposite think that certain favoured individuals ought to be allowed to exercise more votes. There are certain advantages, no doubt, which may be procured by the passing of this Bill. I believe one would be that it would tend to the diminution of the creation of faggot votes, and of those 40s. freehold votes to which the hon. Member has alluded. It would, in that way, reduce the number of names on the register and tend to diminish the expenses of the returning officer and also the election expenses of candidates, which are based upon the number of names appearing on the register. The abolition of the plural vote creates no injustice.
Yes.
The hon. Baronet thinks it would interfere, no doubt, with the number of electors who have recorded their vote for him at past General Elections. The abolition of the plural vote would hit the City of London and, naturally, he wishes to stand up for the City and its historical associations, but if there were any exception made for the City of London it would create several fresh anomalies which it would be quite impossible for us to justify. A case was given last year, or the year before, in connection with barristers. A barrister who happened to possess a qualification in the Temple would be able to record two votes, one for the Temple and one outside. Barristers who possess qualifications for Lincoln's Inn, which is not in the City of London, would only be able to possess one vote. Of course, if you create an anomaly of that kind it could not be justified. Then, again, a certain number of Members who represent university seats think that because they are seats of learning they ought to have special representation in this House, and that the university vote ought to be excluded from the provisions of a plural voting Bill. Our experience of university Members in this House is that they are just as good party men as any other Members, and a large number of their constituents are not closely associated with even the universities -which they represent. A large number of M.A.'s who possess votes have no association with the present life of the universities. I happen to have a vote for the University of Cambridge, but I do not pretend that I am closely associated with the life of Cambridge, and I think it is absurd to try to secure special privileges for universities because they are seats of learning. In this Debate hon. Members opposite have used their utmost ingenuity to find some theory which would justify them in retaining the plural vote. I believe all those theories have been upset in debate, and I feel that every one of their arguments to justify their opposition to this Bill has been riddled again and again. They resist this measure because though they have often had to admit that it is unjust electorally, they gain by it electorally. But they might recognise that they would promote the well-being of the people if they would help us to remove a grievance which is real and deep-seated in the minds of the masses of the people of this country, who have not the opportunity or the wealth or the means to secure for themselves the plural vote which is used by a privileged class in the community. When the working classes of this country realise that they have not an equal voice with the wealthy in connection with the affairs of this country they feel that they have a real grievance and that they have not an equal responsibility, and if you want the masses of the people of this country to feel the responsibility of citizenship, depend upon it, it would be a wise step to remove a grievance which is so deep-seated, and which is felt so acutely by the ordinary elector who has only the possibility of exercising one vote at a General Election. The ordinary elector, no doubt, puts two or three questions before him at an election. He desires to elect the man who represents the principles in which he himself believes. He tries to secure a representative who will honestly represent those principles and who has the ability to represent them, and it is because, as I believe, by the abolition of plural voting, you will strengthen this House and make it a better mirror, and help it to reflect more accurately the views of the masses of the people of this country, and so strengthen our Constitution that I resist the Amendment, and I trust that the House will, for the second time, give a Third Reading by an overwhelming majority to this Bill.
I have a certain amount of sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman, because no one could possibly, for a moment, avoid coming to the conclusion that he himself is perfectly cognisant of all the very weak spots which exist in his Bill, but is absolutely buoyed up by one belief only. He says that the Bill is popular in the country. Well, I have been fighting political questions for twenty-five years in the country, and I confess that I have never seen any great signs of the popularity of this particular measure. I say, with equal strength, that I know the immense popularity it obtains in the right hon. Gentleman's own party. There is no use arguing a point which is admitted. The supporters of the right hon. Gentleman have given the case away time after time. I have been looking through the speeches published in the OFFICIAL REPORT, and I find that hon. Members opposite have time after time said, "We want this Bill because we think it is going to be a. great advantage to our party."
indicated dissent.
The right hon. Gentleman may shake his head, but I have referred to the OFFICIAL REPORT, and if he will do so he will find that I am correct.
I admit it.
The right hon. Gentleman admits it, and he says that, while his party will benefit, there will also arise benefit to the country as a whole. I noticed that when he began his speech he indicated the view that the plural vote was very much more abused now than in the days when Mr. Gladstone supported it. So far as I can gather, I think the exact opposite is the case. I think the plural vote is much less abused now than in those days. In my view faggot votes are not created now as they were in former days. The right hon. Gentleman may tell me that constituencies are won by plural voters, but the votes are not exercised by faggot voters. It is an entirely different thing. The right hon. Gentleman says that the improved means of transit has completely altered the conditions of elections since 1884. So far as I can see, the motor car is the only improvement in the means of transit enabling people to pass quickly from one place to another. I desire in this particular matter to associate myself with my hon. Friend who moved the rejection of the Bill. I am not here to defend the plural vote where it is a faggot vote. I think it is wrong, and if any Bill for the purpose of dealing with the faggot vote had been brought in I should have been pleased to support it. That is not the thing with which we are concerned at the present moment. I am one of those who are perfectly content to stand up and defend plural voting upon the principle of it. I have always done so before. My belief is that at the present moment plural voting is not an anomaly in any degree or shape under our system of franchise. If you examine our system of franchise you will find that this Bill in no way alters it. The system of franchise is based not in any way upon individuality or units. It is based absolutely and entirely upon residence in a district, or the possession of property in a district. The proof of that is perfectly simple when you consider that an individual possesses a vote in a district as long as he dwells there, or is in any county a freeholder. The moment he removes from the district or sells the freehold of his property, which qualifies him as a voter, he ceases to have a vote. He is allowed to remain on the register until the time it expires at the end of the year.
If that is the case, surely I am justified in defending plural voting, for the reason that we take certain districts of the country for our own convenience and make them into constituencies! An individual goes to a district and resides there. If he leases a house he pays rates and taxes. I should like to say, in passing, that I confess I listened with the utmost astonishment to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman in which he argued that a man should not vote more than once. When I first came into politics there was an old saying which was looked upon in those days as a shibboleth, and that was that taxation and representation go hand-in-hand. That was drummed into my ears day after day and year after year. I really believe that it was looked upon as a leading principle of the Radical party. But times have changed, and the Radical party have changed with them. I often comment upon the fact that the two parties in the State have absolutely changed places, and whereas in the old days the party for which the right hon. Gentleman opposite speaks stood up for the rights of the individual and resented the idea of depriving a man of what he was justly entitled to on account of his stake in a district, at present the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends have given up the whole attempt to safeguard the rights of the individual, and have given themselves over body and soul into the arms of' the Socialists. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] It seems to me that they have given up things which formerly enabled them to do a very great deal of good in the country. I think it is clearly proved that the giving of a man a vote in respect of residence or of the property he holds in a locality is for the purpose of voicing the interest which that voter has in the district where he lives or holds property. I think it would be most detrimental to the districts in this country if you were to deprive people who are able to do an enormous amount for a district of the right of having a voice in deciding who shall represent them in this House. My opinion is that our system of franchise completely kills the whole of the arguments for the Bill upon which the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends rely. If the residents in a district only are to be represented I grant that it would be impossible to stand here and support the principle of the plural vote, but the principle of our franchise system is that districts, and not merely individuals, should be represented. The Secretary of State for the Colonies, in a recent Debate we had on this subject, made one or two interesting remarks and the right hon. Gentleman has repeated them. He said that we on this side had admitted that a man had no claim to be a plural voter under a Referendum, and that being so, he could not understand why a man should have more than one vote at a General Election.
I should have thought the reason was very simple indeed. It seems to me that at a General Election various subjects are submitted, and the electors are asked to say whom they would like to represent them, taking all issues together. That, I take it, is exactly what the electors are required to do at a General Election. But a Referendum is an entirely different thing. In a Referendum you submit one point, and one point alone, to all the individual units in the country, so that you may ascertain what is the opinion of the country on the question submitted. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] If I have not made myself clear, I am afraid I cannot make it clearer. I told you the difference between the representation of a district, and the expression of an opinion on a great question by the country under a Referendum. Our leaders on this side offered to have a Referendum on the Home Rule question. [An HON. MEMBER: "To save civil war."] My hon. Friend says "To save civil war." The Secretary for the Colonies said that we baited our offer of the Referendum by intimating that there should not be plural voting. I cannot see how it could be anything else except what we proposed. I absolutely deny that because we offered a Referendum without plural voting that was inconsistent with our championing the franchise as it exists in the country now. Instead of improving our franchise system—which goodness knows wants improving—what you do in this Bill is to single out one point which gives you a party advantage, and that is unblushingly acknowledged by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Redistribution may be a desirable thing, but it is no answer to our argument as to the justice of plural voting. Plural voting stands by itself. It is no argument why Redistribution should not be brought in. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that his party are obtaining an enormous advantage under the present system through the absolutely undue advantage of the present electoral arrangements. If I say that you are going to gain a party advantage in this, I am perfectly entitled to do so. I do think that to tie up the question of Redistributon and deal only with plural voting is perfectly ridiculous. I speak in support of the principle of plural voting, believing that it is perfectly justified.
5.0 P.M.
There are some things which the Government could do if they wished to do some good in regard to the representation of the people. Complaints have been made as to the time it takes a voter to get oh to the register. Why not endeavour to get the period shortened? A man moves, say, from one side of the street to the other, and he loses his vote. My Constituency is Norwood, and on the other side of the road is Wandsworth, and if a man moves simply across the road he loses his vote. It will take two years before he gets on to the register again. You could do a great deal of good by removing that anomaly. But there is no party advantage for you in it, and you do not do it. In the case of lodgers also you could make it more simple for people to get on to the register. I am not here attempting to retard men coming on the register. Personally, I believe, that the more you put on the register the better it will be for our party. I have not the smallest fear of the result. What I do say is that, for the first time in the history of Parliament, you have introduced a purely disfranchising measure. You are endeavouring to take men off the register, because you believe, rightly or wrongly, that they are a disadvantage to your, party. I am not sure that you are right in taking that view. If we lose in the South of England, you may lose in the North. My own opinion is that your plans will fail because you will find that you will lose a large amount of the support you now obtain. While you will be doing an injustice to our friends, the plural voters, in the South, you will be doing an equal injustice to your own friends, the plural voters, in the North. There are many reforms in connection with our franchise law which are really necessary and urgent, but you say that you have no time to deal with them. Why, you are absolutely rendering the whole business of the House of Commons a perfect farce. You come and tell us that this measure in demanded by the people of the country. Where are the men who usually sit on the benches opposite? [An HON. MEMBER: "Where are yours?"] An hon. Member asks where are ours. We are a number of men who, at the dictation of the most autocratic Ministry that was ever created in this country, are bound and gagged whenever it suits you. You render it impossible for us under the Parliament Act, whatever the faults of a measure, to amend them, and you make it impossible for yourselves, which is more idiotic still. The consequence is that we are here absolutely as so many penny-in-the-slot machines into which you put the pennies of your salaries, and you make us all work.
You take your salary.
I have not got any salary. I wish I had. I do not think that it is worth while pursuing all these arguments over and over again. Everybody must be sick of them. But this Bill is going to leave us now, and there is some idea that perhaps it may be dealt with again in another Session of Parliament. I have my own idea on that point. But before it leaves us now I wish to add my final protest against the iniquity of the measure that seeks to deprive people of what they are justly entitled to—of their voice in deciding who shall represent the constituencies in this House. It absolutely deprives those who are most interested in education, a thing upon which hon. Members opposite pride themselves, of the franchise, and it disfranchises men who are the greatest experts in these educational matters. In addition, it will affect injuriously the whole of the dignity of the great commercial centres of the country. My hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) says that it will not affect the City of London because there there are no Radicals there. I am not thinking any more than he is of that point. But the City of London is the chief commercial centre, not only of this country, but of the civilised world, and there may be times in the history of our country when it would be well, no matter what Government is in office, that we should have a decision given by the great commercial centres on matters that vitally affect us. I raise my voice absolutely in protest on behalf of those constituencies which in all probability would be handed over simply to those who look after the offices at night time. We must not forget that the whole of this Bill must lead to an immense amount of gerrymandering by agents throughout constituencies as a necessary result; and, taken as a whole, I raise my voice in earnest to protest against this Bill.
I had not an opportunity of listening to the early part of the speech of the hon. Gentleman opposite, but I heard the Mover of the rejection of the Bill, and after listening to his speech, which occupied half an hour, I can discover no argument against the Bill. The hon. Member's observation ranged all over the political field, but had little reference to the Bill. He spoke of Redistribution, of the Union with Ireland, and various other things, including the iniquities of the Liberal party in general, and John Bright and Cobden in days gone by in particular, but there was very little about this Bill either for or against. I am one of those who take a considerable interest in this Bill, and I sat patiently listening to the hon. Member, because I wanted to hear some argument requiring some answer, but heard none. I am sorry that the hon. Baronet (Sir. F. Banbury) had no opportunity of preceding me, because I wanted to deal with something that could by any stretch of imagination be called an argument against the Bill, but I heard none. I rise on behalf of hon. Members on these benches to repeat our views on this Bill. First, I should like to say that I regard it as a lamentable fact that, after all that has taken place during the last few years, we should be discussing this Bill at all. There is here no question of mandate. In the first Parliament in which I sat in 1906 we passed a much more drastic Bill than this, a Bill which was going to abolish the plural voter. We passed that Bill, after coming to this House, with an immense majority. We were here discussing that Bill for two or three weeks on end, and then it was disposed of in two or three hours at the other end of the passage—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] —which seems to be a source of great satisfaction to hon. Members opposite; and I believe that they would do here exactly what the House of Lords did on that occasion.
In the meantime the mandate was renewed twice, and last year we passed a Bill, not the 1906 Bill, but the Bill which is now before us, and the House of Lords again rejected it. I suppose that we shall pass the Bill again to-night by a substantial majority, and that it will go up to the House of Lords and be rejected again, and probably we shall be discussing it here again next year, and repeating the arguments for and against it, ad nauseam, until everybody is sick and tired of hearing them. All this indicates to my mind that we have not gone far enough in regard to the reform of the House of Lords. I admit that we are in a better position now than we were in 1906, because the promoters of the Bill then had no redress whatsoever. But still even now, under, the terms of the much lauded Parliament Act, we have to come here three years running and repeat these arguments on a Bill so small and so modest that I should have said that every man with common sense would vote for it with the greatest alacrity. It just shows that the House of Lords is absolutely inconsistent with the idea of a free democracy. We regard this Bill as a very small Bill. In fact, the remark which the servant girl made might be made about this Bill: it is such a little one. It is a mouse out of a mountain, the mountain being the Franchise Bill of two years ago which was lost through the militancy of the women, or the muddling of the Government, or both. This Bill might be said to be a little scrap saved out of the Bill of two years ago. It does not affect the qualification of the voter, which is still based upon property and not personalty. It does not affect the question of registration, which will remain as it is, and it will still cause thousands of working people throughout the country to be disfranchised. It will not affect Redistribution, though everybody is agreed that Redistribution is necessary. It leaves Distribution just as it is now, in which I am one of the 50,000 voters in the Constituency in which I live, while I am here by the votes of something like 4,000 people, and this though we are all agreed about the necessity of Redistribution taking place as soon as possible. This Bill will, indeed, create an anomaly, for it will enable a man to vote only in one constituency at a General Election without depriving him of his vote in other constituencies after the General Election.
But I am going to vote for this Bill in spite of all its shortcomings and defects, because I believe that it will be a step, though only a small one, in the direction, of securing greater equality of political power for the various classes in. this country. It will save some hundreds of thousands of votes being cast the next General Election by people who have already voted, and it will prevent those votes being cast in favour in the main of property. It raises the whole question of the property qualification of voters. I believe that rich and poor have the same right of voting. If there is to be a difference I would give it to the poor man, because he is more fixed and tied up to his country than is the rich man. Instead of that, what happens is that if a man has property in twenty-places he can vote for twenty places. If the hon. Baronet had spoken before, he-might have advanced some arguments for me to answer, but I have honestly tried to find some in the speech of the hon. Gentleman opposite, and I have found none. It has been said that we ought to have intelligence and education represented to a larger extent in this House. I think that I heard the Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil) use that argument on one occasion, and it is said that we ought to have these admitted anomalies maintained so that intelligence will be sure of representation. That argument seems to-be based upon the assumption that intelligence and money go together. But sometimes they do not. It is a very simple sort of thing to assume that intelligence and money go together, but it is not at all the fact. The Tichborne claimant had a very simple division of the community. He divided the community into those who had brains and no money, and those who had money and no brains, and he set himself to exploit that particular section who as he thought had. money but no brains.
He assumed that he had the brains but not the money.
It did not come off. I do not believe that any particular section of the community has any monopoly of brains or intelligence, and therefore I do not think that there is anything in that argument. Then there are some who say that they want education represented in this House, and that the plural vote should be retained in order that education may be represented. It all depends on what you mean by education. If there was any need for those who had the best social sense, and the greatest desire for social service, being specially represented in this House, then I would not mind some special provision being made for that if it were necessary. But I do not believe for one moment that it is necessary. There are men of broad and generous sympathies in all classes of the community, and those men will always find that they can sustain an appeal to the masses of the people, and therefore there is no special need for them to have any special law in order to be here. After all democracy is not a mere counting of noses. It never is and never can be. It is brains, ability, and character that will always count, and I believe that if you had the freest possible democracy, giving every man and every woman equal power, you would have, just as now, brains, ability, and character getting the preference. But if what is meant by education is academic education, then, for my part, I have not the slightest sympathy with it, because I think all history and experience have shown that education of that kind generally sides with money. I am just reminded by the presence of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Hugh Cecil) of the fate of Mr. Gladstone. No doubt the Noble Lord will remember that, as Mr. Gladstone's mind broadened and his sympathies became more general, he was discarded by Oxford University; and I cannot help thinking that, if the Noble Lord only brought himself up to date, he would share the same fate.
Then we have the mill argument. I was reading only yesterday the speech of the hon. Member who moved the rejection of the Bill on the last occasion that it was before us, and he used the mill argument. A mill, he said, was running fairly constantly, and the man who supplied the -capital for it would have one vote, while the thousand operatives in the mill would have a thousand votes. Let me say, by way of parenthesis, that the thousand operatives, as a matter of fact, would not by any means have a thousand votes—not by a long way. First of all, there are the women, who would probably form a very large part of the workpeople in the mill, and none of them would have votes. Then there are the men, many of whom are not in an economic position to qualify for the vote. Take my own case. I have three lads ranging from twenty-five to thirty years of age, and they are not in a position, in an economic sense, to qualify for the vote. It may be assumed that the ordinary operatives in a mill, in the great majority of cases would not be, in such an economic position as to entitle them to the vote. Then there is the other case, that they may not have put in the necessary residential qualification. Here again let me illustrate the matter by my own case. I took a house In August, 1911; I did not get the vote until the beginning of this year. I entered upon occupation just after the list had been made up. I stayed there until the following July, and I had then to qualify by twelve months' residence, as from July, 1912, to July, 1913. Then I was put on the register, and I got the vote on the 1st January, 1914. If it was so in my case, is it not much more likely to be the case of operatives in mills? I have no hesitation in saying that if you were to analyse the position in regard to the thousand mill workers you would find that, instead of a thousand votes, they would have much nearer a hundred. But, even if they had a thousand votes, what then? Why should the man who supplies the capital for the mill have a lot of votes because each of his thousand operatives have one vote. Is it because of his brains and talent that he is to have a lot of votes? It is fair to assume that artisans have as much intelligence as the mill-owner, and also are as much interested in keeping the mill going and the country going.
Although it may be true that a larger number of workpeople have votes, though only one each, still that is no reason why the mill-owner should have a lot of votes. Again, let me refer to the idea of brains, ability, and character as giving him a power above that of any of his workpeople. After all, his life would be free from economic care; he would, so to speak, sit on a hill where all could see him. Probably he would have had the enormous advantage of having received a training in the formative and early period of his life over and above that of his workpeople, and, therefore, if there is anything about the man at all, his position as a mill-owner and as a wealthy man would give him enormous power over that of any of his workmen. Let me follow this mill argument a little further. I must say there are practical difficulties about it. The suggestion is, I suppose, that there should be votes in proportion to the money supplied to the mill. My hon. Friend the Member for one of the Divisions of Lancashire, who sits near me, knows that it is a very common thing for mills to be owned largely by workpeople. Are you going to give to workpeople who subscribe the capital of a mill voting power in proportion to their subscriptions? There are many cases in which banks hold the capital of the mill, and are you going to give banks a right to vote? It seems to me that if this suggestion is really seriously entertained you land yourselves into all sorts of difficulties. As a matter of fact, the whole thing is absurd and grotesque. I believe the only consistent way in which you can get this House made into a fair reflex of the minds of the nation and the interests of the people in this country is to give every man a vote, and no man more than one vote. I would add, so far as I am concerned, that I would also give every woman a vote, because every woman, just like every man, has to obey the laws of the country and contribute to the welfare of the country, and she ought, like a man, to have her share in the making of the laws of the country. I would remind the House that one of the greatest democratic organisations which I know is carried out on that principle. There may not be many in this House fully acquainted with the co-operative organisation of this country. It is an organisation of workpeople, numbering, I think, just over three millions, and therefore they are about one-fifth of the population, if you take women and children. That organisation does a business of something like £130,000,000 a year. I should say that it is one of the greatest business organisations in the world, and the whole of that business, from top to bottom, is carried on as a pure democracy. Every man and woman coming into it has a vote directly he or she qualifies by having a £l share—which they need not pay, by the way, and which is credited to them on their purchases. Men and women qualify in that simple and easy way, and each has the vote just as the man or woman who had joined the movement twenty or thirty years ago.
The organisation is carried on with the utmost efficiency, not only as an idealistic and educational movement, but as a great business concern. All that is done on democratic principles. I support this Bill because it is a small step in the direction of carrying on the affairs of the country in the same way as the co-operative movement of this country carry on their business. I am not altogether disinterested in sup- porting this Bill; I make no profession of that sort. I am here representing a part of the business and commercial centre of Glasgow, sent here by about four thousand votes; but I suppose very few of those four thousand votes came from the business and commercial centre of the city. There are a number of men there who have more than one vote; probably some of them have half a dozen, and it is likely that in so far as those men voted at the election in which I was returned to this House-they voted against me. The effect of this Bill, in so far as they choose to vote for their residences rather than their business premises, would be to reduce the number of plural voters in my Constituency, and therefore, I make no profession of disinterestedness, and I am going to vote for the-Bill for that as well as for other reasons.. The same might apply to the Government and all Members on this side of the House. I do not see why we should stick ourselves on a pinnacle and make profession of our political virtue. This Bill is going to benefit, in an electoral sense, a large number on this side of the House, and, therefore, I submit that the Government, as any Government should do, has endeavoured to save this little bit from the wreckage of two years ago, and they would have been fools if they had not done it.
The only serious objection which is taken is one that is raised by some of my colleagues who have determined to vote against the Bill, because it does not do-anything for women. That is a chivalrous and generous position to take up, and I can understand it, although I cannot rise to it. After all, though the Bill does not, do anything in the way of giving political power to women, yet, as a matter of fact it gives no more political power to men, and, therefore, it does not appear to me that the argument which is put forward by my hon. Friends is a sufficient one to induce me, at all events, and the bulk of my colleagues, to vote against this Bill. Moreover, I believe the Bill will make it easier to get votes for the women, having regard to the fact that all previous extensions of the franchise have done something in the direction of pulling down privilege and monopoly. I believe that in so far as this Bill can be said to extend the franchise it will have exactly the same effect as other extensions of a like nature have had, and it will clear the road, so to speak, for other and more drastic measures of reform. For these reasons I am going to vote for the Bill. I hope the House of Lords will on this occasion take the common-sense view and pass it. If they do not, then I suppose there is nothing else for it. but to wait for another year and then pass it over their heads. But I hope it will be an object lesson to the democracy of this country, showing them that although we have done a little to clip the wings of the House of Lords, we have not yet done half enough. I hope that this Bill, if the House of Lords reject it, will afford that object lesson, and will show the need, the urgent need, for reducing the three Sessions down to two, and ultimately, as I should say, putting this House in the position of the only Chamber representing the will of the people.
I must claim the indulgence of this House on this the first occasion of my rising to address hon. Members. I have listened to the arguments in favour of this Bill to abolish plural voting. I have just returned from an election of which you are all aware, and during that election, although the time was very short, and although the Home Rule Bill occupied a great share of attention, yet I must say that I did not forget that this measure was likely to be brought before the House very soon after I had entered it, and T made it a point that if I was returned to the House I should vote against this measure. There is no one in this House who can claim to be in favour of one man one. vote more than I do myself. I have frequently stated that that was my opinion, but at the same time, I have always qualified it by saying that I believe in one man having one vote, but that every vote should have the same value. The hon. Member who has just spoken told the House that he represents 4,000 electors. I have the privilege and honour to represent 21,000, and I would ask him, Is it fair when he casts his vote that his 4,000 electors should replace the 21,000 whom I represent? The right hon. Gentleman opposite said that this was a fair measure. I take objection to it because it is not a fair measure, and I say that a Bill of this kind should never be introduced unless accompanied by a Bill for the redistribution of seats. In Grimsby, which I have the privilege of representing, we have a very large floating population. I pledged myself that on the first occasion that I had the opportunity to raise my voice I would do so in support of those men being able to cast their votes before they go to sea. They have the necessary qualification, but, by reason of the nature of their calling, their vessel is often called away and they are ordered on board at six o'clock in the morning, while, as the polling opens at eight, they are thus debarred from exercising the franchise. I say it is a great and burning shame in the case of the fishermen all round the coast that they have not the opportunity to cast their votes. They have to go to sea either early in the morning of the day of polling or on the day before. If they do not do so when they are ordered, they are brought before the magistrate, and are fined 21s. or twenty-one days' imprisonment. I say that is a very great injustice, and that the Cabinet and the Government ought to make it their business to give those men their just dues and rights. Why should they not be allowed to exercise their votes the same as those who have not to go to sea?
Some hon. Members have complained that everybody has not got a vote, and the last hon. Member who spoke said that he would give every man a vote. I would not go as far as that, because I think everybody should have the necessary qualification. I would not lower the vote to the man, but I believe in raising the man to the franchise. That hon. Gentleman also said that the co-operative people managed their business on the system of giving everyone a vote. I think, however, that the hon. Member will admit that before anyone can cast a vote in a co-operative society he must become a member, and therefore must qualify. I say that every man in this country should be able, and it should be within the reach of every man to qualify for a vote if he is a decent citizen, but I would not give the vote to every man irrespective of how he conducts himself. I say it should be within the reach of every man if he likes to qualify for a vote, and it should be within the reach of everyone to qualify if he only tries to do so. My experience in Grimsby was that while there are hundreds clamouring to get on the register, yet we have the greatest difficulty to get them to the poll when we want them, and I am very much of the opinion that if you extend the franchise to the women of this country you will have great difficulty in getting half of them to go to the poll when they have got the vote. An hon. Member has already said that it is a very great injustice that because a man moves from one side of the road to the other, he cannot have a vote until he remains so long in the house to which he has changed. I can complain of the same injustice, for I have moved during the last three years from Grimsby to London, and I think it was eighteen months before I could get on the register, although at the same time I was a councillor in Grimsby.
The last speaker also said that he considered that working men had quite as much brain power as the wealthier classes. I have not the least doubt they have, but it is not a question of those who have the most brains, but it is the use to which they put those brains. That is what I find counts in life. I believe the Almighty has endowed us all with a certain amount of brains, but we do not all make the best use of them. The hon. Member also spoke about cotton factories, and about the proprietor having one vote and his thousand employés having a thousand votes. He alluded also to the companies, and said the shareholders and the manager should have so many votes, and he pointed out that in some of the mills in Lancashire the operatives did find the capital. It is, I believe, contrary to usage for shareholders in a company to have votes. I am the managing director of my own company; I have no vote at Grimsby, though I am Member for that constituency. I am going to vote against this Bill simply because I do not consider it is a fair measure, and I do not think it is a fair thing for the Cabinet and the Government to bring forward a measure of this kind unless they are prepared at the same time to bring forward the question of Redistribution of seats. That is a crying evil, and one which ought to be remedied, and if the Government desire to bring forward a measure acceptable to the electors of this country, they will not do so without bringing Redistribution in it, and at the same time offering to the fishermen in all the fishing ports of the United Kingdom the opportunity of voting and the right to register their vote at the Board of Trade, which could be done simply before they go out to sea, I thank the House for the kindly hearing they have granted me.
I think everybody in the House will have listened with pleasure to the maiden speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. I congratulate him very sincerely on his good sense in not taking up too much time to begin with, and on the very common-sense speech he has made. I hope that during the time he sits in this House he will always speak with as much common-sense and as much to the point as he has done to-day I almost feel he belongs to us. [An. HON. MEMBER: "He is sitting on the wrong side!"] He will forgive me if I do not follow him into the various points he has raised. I desire rather to call attention to the speech made by the hon. Member who moved the rejection, and I also wish to congratulate him most heartily on the reasonableness of his speech except in the last sentence, which was the only part to which I could take exception. Otherwise in his speech there was an entire absence of that sharp and rather vulgar criticism one sometimes hears in this House. I am glad we did not get that from the hon. Gentleman's speech. I am afraid I should not agree with him or many hon. Members opposite who approach the consideration of this subject from points entirely different from mine. The hon. Member wants to destroy the Bill, while I would rather, if it were possible, enlarge the scope of the Bill. That, not being possible, I shall heartily support the Bill as it stands. I regret very much indeed that it does not include by-elections as well as a General Election. I ventured to say the same thing on a former occasion when I had the opportunity of speaking on this Bill, but, nevertheless, I shall vote most heartily for it. I regard it as a long-delayed attempt to secure equality before the law for man and man. I have long believed that property ought not to have privilege in the way of franchise which it now has, and some of which this Bill will destroy. Why should I, as a plural voter, have the right to vote in London out of a house in which I live, and then have the right to go to Yorkshire, where I have not lived for more than thirty years, and vote in that constituency? I cannot find any ground which justifies it except that by accident very early in life I happened to come into possession of what is called real property, which entitles me still to register my vote there. I have no other ground on which I could at all justify my going to Yorkshire to vote, and I do not justify it in that sense, and I hope that that vote will be taken from me, and the sooner the better.
Even as matters stand, the property vote is not at all equal. A Gentleman sitting on the bench opposite might have a hundred thousand pounds worth of shares which would give him one vote, while another man might get a vote out of a thousand pounds worth of real property. Why should the man with the real property of a thousand pounds in value have more votes than the man with ten times or twenty times or a hundred times his wealth? I think this Bill has long been necessary, and brings us a little nearer to that for which I have been contending for the most part of my public life. I know that on the opposite side the Bill will be objected to. Several objections, indeed, have already been raised. Some Members opposite say that there is no demand for the abolition of the plural vote. Gentlemen who take that view must move in circles altogether different from those in which I move. I know few things in politics more earnestly demanded by the great mass of the people than that one man should have one vote, and that no man should have more than one vote. We have been told that property ought to be recognised, and before this Debate closes probably some hon. Members will rise and justify, as they have already sought to justify, the giving of an extra vote to a man because he has a large estate in the country. [An HON. MEMBER: "Shame!"] I do not cry "Shame," but I say it is a thing that ought to be abolished, and this Bill will abolish it in course of time. We have been told that this is a piece of political gerrymandering. What, I ask, is meant by talk like that? This Bill will give no advantage to any Liberal or Radical which it does not leave to any Conservative. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) shakes his head, but we do not take from him his one vote. He will have one vote left by this Bill, which also leaves only one vote to hon. Members on this side. The Bill will be an advantage in this way, that we shall have one vote one man, and they will have the same right and privilege.
We are told that this proposal ought to be accompanied by Redistribution of scats. It has been stated in this House before, and again to-day, on behalf of the Government, that hon. Members opposite can have Redistribution as soon as they like. If they really wish for Redistribution—and I shall believe that they are sincere until I am compelled to believe otherwise—why do they not urge their leader or leaders to confer with our leader or leaders? And then, even in the short time that this Parliament has to live, it would be easy to get Redistribution through on the lines set out by the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. There are several grounds on which I support this Bill. First, it destroys an improper property qualification. Secondly, it begins to recognise that humanity instead of property has the right to confer the vote. It puts the rich man and the poor man on the same level at the ballot box, so far as it goes. I agree with the hon. Member below the Gangway in hoping that the time may come when every man will have the privilege of the vote, and I hope that when women learn to behave themselves they also may have votes given to them. I have said that on former occasions. This Bill will bring us one step nearer to the desired goal. I hope the Government will insist on carrying the Bill through, and that they will listen to no proposals for resignation until the Bill is on the Statute Book. Far too long the leaders of the Liberal party have been far more anxious to satisfy the criticisms of their enemies than to do justice to their supporters. I hope that in this measure we shall get one little slice of justice, and that it will soon be the law of the land that one man shall have one vote, and no man more than one. I heartily support the Bill.
I do not intend to detain the House more than a few minutes, because the arguments on this Bill, both for and against, are perfectly well known, and have reached that point of development which is usually called the threadbare stage. I am surprised that, although the matter has been very amply discussed in its main principles, hon. Members opposite are still unaware of how strong and how plain a case can be made against the Bill, and how entirely incoherent and even self-contradictory the case which they present in favour of the Bill must be held to be. I desire to point out at the outset that you must rest your representative system on one of two main principles. On the one hand you must have, say, as our ancestors said, that particular localities have to choose representatives. Those representatives were considered rather as representatives of the whole people than as representatives of the locality. You must either say that your system of representation is to give every locality of sufficient position the right to choose, a Member of Parliament, or you must go on the principle, which apparently commands the assent of hon. Members opposite, that every individual ought to have an equal vote in determining the government of the country. Those are very obviously not the same principles, and they may result, in many respects, in different consequences. It will be quite clear that, according to the principle that it is in the interests of the country that various localities should each choose one representative, the plural vote is justifiable. A man in business in the city and residing in a suburb is in a very real and practical sense a member of two local communities. He pays rates and taxes, he takes part in local affairs, he bears his part, if his means are sufficient to enable him to do so, in local subscriptions, charitable, religious and the like; he is, in a real sense, a member of two communities, and therefore upon that principle it is perfectly plain that the existing plural vote can be defended.
I would especially point out that that particular sort of plural vote which belongs to the electors of a university is also perfectly justifiable. Indeed, I am amazed that the Government have not made that an exception to their Bill, because, assuming that you retain university representation at all—and this Bill does not abolish it—you must be supposed to think that an educational qualification is a proper title to a vote. It is quite clear that if a man has an educational qualification, that qualification ought to have effect, whether or not a man may independently and incidentally have a qualification of a different kind. The two qualifications proceed on quite different bases, and to say that a man is not to have the advantage of his double qualification, assuming that both qualifications are valid, is to argue most illogically and most unfairly. I cannot mention this aspect of the matter without remembering that when the Bill was last before Parliament we had the assistance of my greatly venerated colleague, Sir William Anson. Everyone on both sides of the House will agree that his distinguished ability, great learning, and charming personality were an ornament to the House, and that his death has inflicted a great loss. Suffering, as we university representatives are, under that great loss, it is still our duty to point out that the Bill in this respect is indefensible and illogical. Hon. Members opposite meet all this part of the argument by adhering strictly to the principle that each individual is entitled to an equal voice in the government of the community. In the main I agree to that; but I think that if we were drawing up a fancy constitution an exception might be made of a strictly financial kind. It is not quite reasonable or proper, nor is it in accordance with the old traditions of Parliamentary Government in this country, that the numerous class, who are poor, should impose taxes on the small class, who are rich. The original principle on which the Plantagenet Kings and statesmen founded Parliamentary Government was there should be no taxation without Parliamentary representation, and a minority who have no effective means of checking the majority are very much in the same position as the old Commons of England were when they resisted being taxed by the King arid nobles without their consent. If it was tyrannical for King Edward I. and his nobles to impose taxation on the towns without the towns giving their consent through their burgesses in this House, it is equally tyrannical for a democratic majority to impose taxes on people with over £5,000 a year without obtaining from those people any effective consent.
Would they ever get it?
I dare say the same difficulty arose with King Edward I. and his nobles. Probably they found it difficult in those days to get the consent of the burgesses to the taxation of the towns. Nevertheless, they thought themselves bound, according to their conception of Parliamentary Government as it was then understood, to summon representatives from the towns and get their consent to such taxation. I suggest that the democracy ought to be equally liberal and equally just. You ought to have in some form the consent of the rich people to the taxes which are levied upon them and to which the poor do not contribute. But that is by the way. It is merely suggested by an interesting speech to which we listened earlier in the Debate, and is no part of the argument which I am addressing to the House. My objection to this Bill is that it does not in the least express the theory upon which it is supposed to rest. That theory is that every individual ought to have an equal voice in the government of the country. The Bill, not merely does not give every individual an equal voice in the government of the country, but it may easily make, and in the present Parliament, if it had applied to the election, would have made the existing system of representation more defective than it is at present. That is hardly realised on the other side of the House, I think. The truth is that if you adopt the principle of every individual having an equal voice in the government of the country, you must have proportional representation. Logic inexorably requires it. No other system will do. Neither redistribution of seats nor any of the changes foreshadowed in the Government's large Franchise Bill will give you what you want. Only proportional representation will really give to every individual an equal voice in the government of the country. The discrepancies between the calculated results of proportional representation and the practical results of various General Elections are quite amazing. It is not a mere academic matter. It is a matter of the utmost practical importance. According to competent mathematicians, if the present House of Commons had been elected on the basis of proportional representation, the coalition majority would have been only 38. If that had been the case, neither the Home Rule Bill nor the Welsh Disestablishment Bill would have passed into law. [HON MEMBERS: "No!"] If hon. Members doubt that, let them ask what their Whips would have thought of the prospect of carrying on this Parliament for four years with a majority of no more than 38 to begin with. Such a course would have been utterly impossible.
We do not agree about the 38?
The calculation was made by the Proportional Representation Society. If the hon. Member will look into the figures he will see that it is shown quite clearly that the majority would have been 38.
Does that include the universities?
6.0 P.M.
I forget whether it does or not, but I think it does, because it is on the basis of the existing representation. This is the point I want hon. Members to grasp. What would have happened if the plural vote had been abolished at that election? You actually had a result which was nearly 100 out. You had a, majority of 126 instead of 38. If the plural vote had been abolished, the result would have been far worse. You would have had twenty to thirty more Liberals elected, and that the House of Commons would have been much less representative than it is at present. Therefore, you are actually carrying a Bill which may, quite easily, in similar circumstances, make the existing representative system less fair than it is now, so improper is it to proceed merely for party advantage. If hon. Members would really address themselves to the reform of the system of representation on any theoretical principle, whether on the system of local representation, or on the principle of equal rights as between individuals, they would never support this Bill at all. But they are not proceeding on any principle. They are proceeding to get so many more Members of Parliament on their own side into Parliament.
One man one vote.
Yes, but "one man one vote" has no meaning, unless you mean that one man has in political power an equal share to another. "One man one vote" is a mere shibboleth. "One man one vote," to be rational, means equal political rights to every man, and if you want that you must have proportional representation. Nothing approaches it, nothing goes sufficiently near to it, to be a fair system or a fair arrangement. What then you are doing is to make the representative system worse for the sake of party advantage. You are doing a thing because it is justifiable on the platform, because in a rather popular form it is possible to you, but which as a matter of fact has nothing behind it, except a mere desire to strengthen the party advantage in this House. Let me add to that that it is particularly unfortunate that you should be doing this at a time when part of the community are so deeply moved as they are about Women Suffrage. I really do not think that people are always perfectly fair to the advocates of Women Suffrage, nor are they even perfectly fair to those criminals who are causing us so much distress, and who are called the militants. It is hardly realised how very great and deep the provocation has been that has led them to the deplorable excesses of which we complain. I look at the pledge, or one of them, given by the Government to the advocates of Women Suffrage when the large Reform Bill was in immediate contemplation. I quite agree that the Government may say verbably, "We kept our promise." I do not make the charge that they have verbally broken it. I do not think they have. But I do think that they have done a thing which no honest man would do in any private transaction with those who trusted to his honour. I am quite sure there is no Member of the Government who would act in a private capacity to any person whatsoever as they have acted in their public capacity to the advocates and the supporters of Women Suffrage. They destroyed the Conciliation Bill at a time when it had great prospects, and when public feeling was more favourable to it than now. It was destroyed by the promise of a Reform Bill.
No, no!
It was "torpedoed," as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said. They promised the Reform Bill. I am speaking now of the period before the Reform Bill was introduced. Not only did they promise the Reform Bill, but they represented that it would have a very much better chance than any Members' Private Bill could possibly have. They dwelt upon that fact. They pledged themselves very deeply to carry the Bill and to give a fair chance to the advocates of Women Suffrage to amend it. I can quote the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer just before the Bill collapsed. He and the Foreign Secretary received a deputation, and they were very strongly impressed on the subject. They repeated in the very clearest terms the promise. The Chancellor of the Exchequer also quoted the Prime Minister, and said that they would fulfil their pledge to the letters and in the spirit. The Chancellor repeated that twice. He repeated not only to the letter, but that in the spirit the pledge was to be fulfilled. He made clear what the pledge was by quoting what the' Prime Minister himself said in answer to Mrs. Fawcett at a previous deputation. Mrs. Fawcett's questions were two. She asked: '"Is it the intention of the Government that the Reform Bill shall go through all its stages in 1912?" The answer was: "Certainly, that is our intention. We hope to carry it through this year." "Will the Bill be drafted," was the next question, "in such a way as to admit of any Amendments introducing women on other terms than the men?" The reply was: "Certainly." The Prime Minister in the same pledge quoted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said: "You shall certainly have the opportunity to introduce into that Bill qualifications for the suffrage for women if the majority of the House of Commons is prepared to assent to them."
The Government were prevented. It was not their fault. But does anyone say that when you are prevented from carrying out a pledge so definite, so clear, and. so often repeated, that people who care profoundly—either wisely or foolishly— no one thinks more clearly than I do that those concerned take a most exaggerated view as to the importance of the matter, but they do take that view—they felt that the Government was thus deeply pledged— that that ends the matter? The ruling of the Chair made it impossible to fulfil the pledge. The Government did not bring in a new Reform Bill with more extended, title. They did try to fulfil the pledge in the next Session, but left the matter to a private Member's Bill. In the wreck of their own Reform Bill they did just what they were bound to do. They saved one article which they were anxious for, and the one thing which it was for their party advantage to carry. I call that acting rather in a way which would certainly be described as acting dishonourably in a private transaction. The other day in an old Parliamentary Debate in the year 1770 I came across a very fine definition of honour. The thing I am about to quote was used by Lord John Cavendish in proposing a candidate for the Chair of Mr. SPEAKEK. Lord John Cavendish recommended this candidate because in particular he had a nice sense of honour. He thus defined that quality:— beautiful; other people think it rather smudgy. I was amused to see a Liberal newspaper the other day claiming most extravagantly on behalf of the Prime Minister that he enjoyed a high reputation in this respect. That is from an admirer of post-impressionist honour. We think that the Prime Minister's efforts are rather smudgy. We do not seem to trace old familiar lines of the old-fashioned honour. We do not like it in its post-impressionist form. The Government nevertheless will go on with what they are doing. They have rather a lust for party tactics and for party advantage, which is anxious to receive any gain that can be had. They will go on. They have a majority, and that majority will strengthen the Government, as hon. Members very frankly allow, by the reflection that it will help most of them in their constituencies. The Bill will no doubt be read a third time, though I cherish the hope it may not pass into law. It will, at any rate, during the present Session, pass triumphantly through this House, leaving not only in the minds of the advocates of Women Suffrage a strong and natural and legitimate sense of wrong, but also leaving with the Government an additional stain on already dirty hands.
The Noble Lord who has just addressed the House stated that we were living in a new age, in an age of novelty. I certainly think it is novel for an hon. Member to discuss the subject of Women Suffrage in a Bill dealing with plural voting. The subject-matter of the Noble Lord's speech has really nothing to do with the matter under discussion.
If the Government have time for this Bill, they could find time for a Women Suffrage Bill.
It would be out of order for me to pursue that argument; at all events, I assume it would. But I compliment the Noble Lord upon one thing, and that is that he is faithful to the hereditary policy of his family. When the subject of reform was debated in the year 1867, and when as applied to towns the whole question of the plural vote as such was debated in this House, the distinguished father of the Noble Lord left the Cabinet because of the undertaking by the then Mr. Disraeli as to the Reform Bill. By that Reform Bill of 1867 there were ten qualifications which would have multiplied the number of votes given to persons living in towns. There was the money qualification. A person possessing, £50 in the Savings Bank was qualified to have a vote. There was the educational qualification, that gave every schoolmaster a vote, and every university man a vote. There was also a qualification that a man. was to pay his rates direct, and not to be-entitled to a vote if he compounded. If the Noble Lord will read the speech which his distinguished father delivered in this. House on the Third Beading of that Bill, and in which he chastised Mr. Disraeli for-having abolished all his qualifications at the request of Mr. Gladstone, he will see-what I mean. Mr. Gladstone at that time,, I believe, moved no less than ten Amendments to the Bill, and there was abolished-the whole of these qualifications. To-day in towns we have no plural votes. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about London?"]: London is a special place. Strictly speaking, in our towns we have no plural voters. The position is this—
What about the statement of the hon. Member for Black-frairs?
He represents, I understand, a county constituency.
No, a town.
Let me explain. If my Friend the hon. Member for the Black-friars Division of Glasgow states that there are certain men living or having, businesses in a constituency, who may have a vote in the counties—
I have plural voters. These voters have a vote in respect of their-business in the city and also in respect. of their residence outside.
I was going to point that out. If a man has a business qualification in a town, then he is entitled to be a voter, if he lives within seven miles of the borough. If he resides beyond the seven miles of the borough, then he is not qualified to vote for either a municipal candidate or for a Parliamentary candidate. There may be special cases that I do not know, but when a borough list is. made out you have the municipal qualification. If a man lives beyond seven miles, and within fifteen miles of the borough, he-is qualified he can act in the capacity of a. councillor, alderman, or mayor. Let me point out this great difference: If a man is a voter in a borough—that is to say, for-his business premises—and has a residence he can choose either one or the other. Then if he owns a little property, even of the value of 40s. outside in the county, that is a qualification that entitles him to a vote. Now all that is really what we object to. We object to a man having a qualification in the counties that he cannot have in the boroughs, because this Bill will mot apply to the borough constituency in England.
It will, apply to every one of the boroughs in London.
That is if a man resides within seven miles he has a right to be upon the register. But if he resides above seven miles he has not a right to be put on the register. So far as the monetary qualification goes, let me put this case to the House: Supposing a man is living in a borough, in a house of a capital value of £5,000, he is not entitled to have any vote but one. But if another man is living on a piece of property -worth £500 or £200 or £100 he is entitled to have one vote, and if he possesses an income to the value of 40s. or owns another in the county he is entitled to another vote. Therefore it does not represent the amount of money that a man possesses in the property qualification that entitles him to a vote. I say it is only right and just that there should "be an abolition of the plural voter in our -counties, and that they should be put on exactly the same footing as the borough voters, who represent the constituencies for Members of this House. I was very much surprised to hear what the hon. Member for Grimsby stated about the condition of things in Grimsby. I was there the night before the election, and I found great excitement and eagerness on the part of the men of Grimsby to vote. In fact, I believe there was a very high percentage of voting in Grimsby. I was astonished to hear the hon. Member say that, although you give a man a vote, the difficulty was to get him to vote on the day of the election. I think that is belying his own constituency. The other thing that surprised me was this: The hon. Member thought a man should have a qualification for the vote, but he did not say what the qualification ought to be. He did not define whether it was to be a monetary qualification or an educational qualification. And I think Members of the House who oppose the abolition of plural voting, if they demand qualifications for the vote, should define what these qualifications are. repeat that if anybody will look up "Hansard" of the date to which I have referred, he will find that the whole question of qualifications debated and that the qualifications put into that Bill were set aside by a majority of the House, and that the Government of the day accepted the conditions which the House itself demanded.
I should like to point out this anomaly to the House: It was stated, I think, by the hon. Member for Blackfriars, that this Bill will affect him. But it does not affect me, only so far as I am the possessor of another vote, and I am quite prepared to give up my duplication of votes. Plural voting does not affect me politically in the slightest, but I think it is a very severe handicap upon Members who contest county constituencies. Take the case of the hon. Member for East Durham. The occupation vote in his constituency numbers 15,692. The ownership vote totals 5,620. There are more than one-third of the electors in South-East Durham ownership voters. I say it is a very severe handicap for any man to undertake to fight a constituency with such a large number of ownership voters. Take the county of Cheshire. There are eight divisions in Cheshire. There are 15,838 ownership voters. In Derbyshire in the seven divisions there are 19,000 ownership voters, and you can go through the whole list of the ownership voters and you will find that some constituencies are very severely handicapped by their large numbers. In one of the divisions of Yorkshire there are 6,036, and in the Wimbledon division of Surrey 7,143. In Somerset I find there are in the seven divisions:59,862 occupation voters and no less than 21,456 ownership voters, or more than one-third of the total number. Many of those voters in the county have no real qualifications —no actual real monetary qualification— for their votes, and it is a very serious handicap for a man to undertake to contest a constituency and then to find himself outvoted, not by the men to whom he has been speaking and addressing, not by voters living in the constituency, but by men brought in from other parts of the country. I say, in conclusion, that if the hon. Member for Grimsby was outvoted by men brought in from outside he would be the first man to plead for the abolition of the vote by men who came from outside to outvote the men who lived in Grimsby. This Bill is a just Bill, and it has been too long delayed. There is a strong and wide feeling in the country in its favour, and therefore I shall vote for its Second Reading.
The hon. Member who has just sat down does not, I think, quite understand this Bill, because he has given us so many extraordinary reasons for voting for it. He has told us that this Bill will not affect the borough constituencies. How on earth the hon. Gentleman could have arrived at that conclusion I cannot possibly conceive. Let me point out to him that if a man has a house in a borough he has a vote for that borough at the present moment. If he has & house in another borough or county he also has another vote for that borough or Bounty. Under this Bill he will be deprived of one of those votes, and therefore in that way alone it affects the boroughs. Then, again, if he has a business qualification in the borough, and if he resides within seven miles of that borough—and there are a very large number of people, especially in the North, who live in villas five or six miles outside the large towns or boroughs in which they have business— he will be deprived of his vote. Again, in London, if a man has a business qualification and resides within twenty-five miles of the City he has a vote, and he will be disqualified by this Bill. Therefore, I think the hon Gentleman should have studied the Bill a little more carefully before he came down to the House and told us he was going to vote in its favour. He gave another reason, and that is, that it is an extraordinary hard thing for some hon. Friend of his—I did not catch his name— to have to contend with the large number of outvoters in his constituency. How does the hon. Gentleman know that these outvoters are not Radicals? It is because they are not Radicals that the hon. Gentleman thinks the thing is hard. If they were Radicals the hon. Gentleman would welcome them.
I am glad that the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division of Glasgow is now in the House, because I should like to say a few words upon the speech he delivered to us. He told us that he listened to the speech of my hon. Friend, who moved the rejection of this Bill, and that he could find no argument in it against the Bill. I am afraid I cannot agree with that, because I listened very carefully, and I think there was a very considerable number of arguments in the speech against the Bill. But, at any rate, my hon. Friend did speak in the way in which he is going to vote. He spoke against the Bill; even if his arguments were not satisfactory to the hon. Member. The hon. Member for Blackfriars spoke against the Bill, but everything he said was in favour of the Bill, except the one part of his speech which said he would gain some votes by the Bill, and although he was not making a speech against the Bill, he finished up by saying, "Notwithstanding I am against the Bill, as I am going to gain some votes by it, I will vote for it." I am sure the hon. Member will admit that I am not making that statement without some proof. He first began his speech by saying the law has not been properly reformed. I presume that what the hon. Member meant was that that ought to have been in the Bill. Then he said the Bill was a little one. That is not a very strong argument in favour of it, and then he said that he did not believe that democracy was a mere counting of noses. That is what the Bill is going to do; that is the argument brought forward by his own leader, the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, and that is one of the reasons why hon Members on this side of the House are strongly opposed to the Bill. Does the hon. Gentleman want equality among the various classes in the country? I agree there ought to be, but this Bill does not do it; this Bill does exactly the reverse, as I shall proceed to show. Therefore, I think I am right in saying that the speech of the hon. Member for Blackfriars, except that part of it where he acknowledged and honestly admitted that it was going to do him good electorally, was a speech against the Bill.
I want to say a few words with regard to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. I sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman very sincerely. He had a very difficult task; he had an extremely bad Bill, and it was very difficult to adduce any argument in its favour, and although he also was candid enough to say that it would do his party good, it would not, of course, do for the right hon. Gentleman to have made too much play with that particular point. He tried to put some little gloss or polish upon the Bill, and I am sure he will acquit me of discourtesy if I say he singularly failed. He made great play with the Referendum, and he said, "You are offering us the Referendum without plural voting," and because we are kind and generous people, anxious to get a Referendum or a General Election and prepared to give away a great deal so that the people may be consulted, he says, "Why do you not abolish plural voting?" The right hon. Gentleman does not recognise how anxious we are to assist him and his Government in every kind of way to place the various questions we have been discussing before the country. We are so sincere in that we are prepared to give up a great deal of the advantage we ought to retain in order to give the country an opportunity of deciding which is right, and yet the right hon. Gentleman cannot see the great magnanimity with which we are animated. The right hon. Gentleman said that Mr. Gladstone in 1884 stated that plural voting was not abused. What did he mean? I thought over that remark very carefully, and I have concluded that before 1884 a great many plural voters were Radicals, and that is what the right hon. Gentleman called not abusing it. But the moment the common sense of the country sees how the Liberal party is progressing, he turns round and says that plural voting is abused. The right hon. Gentleman further stated that there was not the same travelling facilities in 1884. As far as I remember there were railway trains in 1884. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not motor cars!"] I agree that motor cars have increased during the last ten years, but that does not facilitate plural voting. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]
Let hon. Members recollect that nearly every polling booth is close to a station, and if you go by train you can, by driving four or five miles, in nine cases out of ten, go to the polling booth and register your vote. Motor cars do not assist in that way. I agree that they are valuable in a country constituency for bringing in outvoters who are too lazy to go themselves, but I do not believe in motor cars for this purpose, and I think that a person who has a vote ought to take the trouble to go to the polling station himself. The arguments of the right hon. Gentleman were really so feeble that I do not think it is necessary to devote any great length of time to discussing them. The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) gave us some very excellent reasons why this Plural Voting Bill should be rejected. I am glad that there are one or two Members of the Labour party in the House, because there are a good many reasons which have not been brought forward against this Bill to which I propose to devote a few moments. I have always understood that one of the arguments which has been brought forward by the Labour party has. been that in the past a particular class, generally described as the aristocracy, had practically the whole power in the State, and what the Labour party desired was that that power amongst the people should be made more equal. Now it is because I agree that all classes should be equally represented that I am against this Bill. Let me read to the House what Professor Lecky said on this, point in his work, "Democracy and Liberty." He said:— I only wish I had been able of my own knowledge and power to make such remarks as those. They are absolutely apt to the present situation, and they describe absolutely correctly the effect of the Plural Voting Bill. On page 25 of Mr. Lecky's book, he says:—
You are quoting from a Conservative Member.
These are the opinions of Professor Lecky, an exceptionally clever and able man. Naturally, therefore, he was a Tory, and naturally the hon. Member would like to exclude him and all those like him from having a share in the representation of the country, because they know perfectly well they would not vote for the party opposite. The hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division (Mr. Barnes) alluded to a speech made by the hon. Member for the Bassetlaw Division (Mr. Hume-Williams), in which he referred to the case of a mill-owner. He said, "Here was a mill-owner who had a thousand hands, and they might be women." I presume the hon. Member when he said one thousand hands did not mean one thousand people who had votes.
He did not say so, and he assumed a thousand hands, and assumed that they had one thousand votes.
They must have been men, because under the present law women are not allowed to have a vote, and if I may say so quite courteously, the idea that every one of those hands has not got a vote is beside the question. The vast majority of them would have votes, and that is what my hon. Friend meant He never meant that the mill-owner should have a thousand votes or any particular number of votes as the hon. Gentleman seemed to suggest. What he meant was that the mill-owner should have one vote in that place and one only. What this Bill is going to do is to take away from that mill-owner that one vote, and that is absolutely indefensible. What has happened is that hon. Gentlemen opposite are pretty certain if they went to the country with the franchise in its present state they would be very heavily defeated, and therefore, as has been the habit of the Liberal party for the last thirty years, finding that is the case they have set about gerrymandering the constituencies in order to ensure that they should get another opportunity from people who do not understand them of mismanaging the affairs of the country. That is the sole reason why this Bill has been brought in. Some hon. Members, like the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division, have had the courage to get up and say that that is so, but we have to think of something a little more seriously than that. If we are really going to govern a great country like this in a proper manner, and on the lines of past Bills dealing with the representation of the people, we must not consider where they are going to advantage or disadvantage one party or the other. What we must consider is, as Mr. Lecky said in the few sentences I have read, where a reform is going to benefit the representation of the people in this House. Is this Bill going to give a better representation or a worse representation? You must leave out all questions as to whether or not either party is going to benefit. I say that this Bill will give a worse representation because it takes away from those people who by their energy and industry have gained a stake in the country the vote they are entitled to have. In the words of the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division, it is not the object of democracy to count by noses as this Bill does. Therefore, I shall have much pleasure in voting against it.
The hon. Baronet opposite has addressed to us one of his peculiarly ingenious and interesting speeches, but he did not fully explain what were his reasons for objecting to the principle which this Bill embodies. He seems to have some objection to the counting of noses, but the objection which we entertain, those of us who support this Bill, is to counting noses more than once. We do not want to exclude the millowner from having himself counted once, but we do object to the same individual being counted a number of times. The hon. Baronet did not explain why he defends the maintenance of that system. He brought forward certain objections, with some of which I agree, to different features of this Bill, but he did not explain why he defends the existing system under which one individual is counted a number of times.
I did so in the words of a man who could explain it much more lucidly than I could hope to do so.
I will come to Professor Lecky in a moment, but, before doing so, I should like to refer to an expression used by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil). He described the Government's standard of honour as being in some ways comparable to the later impressionist painters, as somewhat smudgy. The Noble Lord overlooked one essential fact. This party has been pledged for a large number of years to the abolition of plural voting, and if the Government had neglected to abolish plural voting, or had neglected to try to do so, then they would have been wanting in a proper standard of honour, and those of us who have been supporting them for a good many years would have had good ground of complaint against them. The hon. Baronet made some play with the question of the Referendum. His contention, I understand, is that under this Bill one vote does not possess one value. I agree with him. It does not, and it would be a very difficult and complicated business so to reform our franchise law that one vote did possess one value. The hon. Baronet and his party are willing that on a Referendum one individual should only have one vote. The millowner, in this case, is only to have one vote, whether it is on account of the mill or whether it is on account of his private residence. His opinion on a great question like Home Rule, which we are told may involve civil war, shall only be expressed once, whilst, if it is a case of a General Election, which may occur automatically at the end of a certain period, then he may have the opportunity of expressing his opinion as many times as he happens to have the qualification. I cannot see what real distinction there is either in fact or reason.
If it is equitable that a man should have a number of votes at a General Election, it is equally equitable that he should have a number of votes in a Referendum. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Hon. Members opposite say "No," but what are the reasons they bring forward for saying so? I say that a Referendum on a question like Home Rule brings forward a matter of vital national consequence, and, if it is fair and right on a question of that kind a man should only have one vote, why is it fair and right that at a General Election he should have many votes? There must be some reason, and the hon. Baronet has certainly avoided explaining what is the reason that justifies the difference. For my part, I think that a man is not entitled to express his opinion more than once, whether on a Referendum or at a General Election. As far as I could ascertain, the basis of the hon. Baronet's contention was embodied in his expression, "A stake in the country." I should like to examine that. It is really at the bottom of the whole of this controversy—this conception that because a man has what is-called " a stake in the country," a money stake, he should have more than one vote. That is a principle with which I strongly disagree, and because I do disagree with it I support this Bill. In the first place, the present system, as the hon. Baronet would be the first to admit, is not fair even to the holders of a money stake, because you may have a man with a very large factory, or something or other which has a great annual value, who has only one vote, and you may have, as in London, a man with a number of small shops, scattered all over the place, who-has twenty votes, so that from the point of view of the money consideration the-present system is not equitable.
The present Bill does not give one vote one value.
Nothing, I agree, is perfect in this world. We shall not get one vote one value by this or any other Bill, but we shall get nearer to that standard by this Bill. What is the claim f It is that it is just that a man with property should have more than one vote. It is founded, I suppose, on the fact that he has embarked his money either in a house on in an enterprise in this and the other place, and that therefore he is entitled to vote in that place and in the other place. Of course, so far as municipal votes are concerned, this Bill does not affect the question. But what is the greatest stake any man can have in the country? Surely his own life is the greatest stake. The hon. Baronet shakes his head, but I should like to know what is his greatest stake if it is not his life?
There is his reputation.
In the, main, his reputation would go with his life.
No; his reputation remains afterwards.
I do not suppose that even the hon. Baronet, with his powers, would suggest a reputation qualification. His greatest stake is his own life. Supposing we had an outbreak of European War or, if you like, civil war in Ulster, what would be the first effect? One of the first effects would be that a large number of men, previously employed at the docks, would be unemployed, and prices of corn, whether panic or real values, would go up. It would cost more for a working man to provide his children with bread. Large numbers of working men, scores of thousands of them, would be thrown out of work in the first week. Who, then, has the nearest interest in the good government of the country, and the proper conduct of its business? Surely the man who ii likely to suffer first if the country is badly governed and if its business is badly conducted! Supposing we are blundered into a European war by some mismanagement, either in Whitehall or elsewhere, would the man with ten votes or a factory employing a thousand hands suffer before the people whom he employed? They would suffer long before he suffered, and probably he would never suffer in himself at all. The man who has the greatest interest in the good government and the orderly progress of the country is the man who is poor and is likely to be unemployed if the country is badly governed, and if its affairs are badly conducted. He has a much nearer and real interest in the maintenance of good government than the man who is well supplied with the goods of this world and who may have half a dozen votes. The size of a man's holding of property is no indication whatever of the nearness of his interest in the real good government and progress of the country, because any falling away from a high standard of government will not bring to him poverty or suffering in any way whatever so soon as it will to the man who is-poor and is likely to be unemployed. For that reason, I say, in equity and in justice, that a man who is poor and likely to be unemployed and suffers soonest from ill-government has a greater stake in the-country than a man who is able to be independent to some extent of that Government.
I have always for that reason disagreed with the doctrine that property in anyway, shape, or form is any qualification whatever to vote, and for that reason I entirely disagree with Professor Lecky's proposition. I think it is fundamentally unsound, and that property in any shape-whatever ought not to confer any right or-title to a Parliamentary vote as such, and' for that reason I frankly confess that so-far as I am concerned I cannot see any rational and humane system of qualification other than that you should have adult suffrage. That, however, is beside the-point; but it is not beside the point that the possession of property is not a fair and right title to confer upon its owner the possession of a number of different votes, and that is the principle at which we aim in this Bill. The hon. Baronet frankly maintains quite the opposite opinion. He says; that he has got Professor Lecky and a good many others on his side—that the-possession of property should entitle a main to a number of votes. I disagree with him and because we disagree on that fundamental issue we take different sides on this-Bill. The hon. Baronet says, and it seems; to be the stock argument of his party, that the only reason why the Government is. pressing this Bill forward is that they think it will confer upon them some party advantage. If the hon. Baronet will really look into the records of the writings and labours of Liberals and Radicals for the-last forty years he will find that he is mistaken, and that they have had a standing-grievance for a long time against Liberal Governments that they have not sought to redress this wrong.
What about Johns Stuart Mill?
That is a long time since.
He was a good Radical.
I quite agree, but we-have moved since the time of John Stuart Mill. He was certainly a very good Liberal, but in my opinion the qualification which property confers in giving a number of votes is a violation of the first principle of individual liberty. At all events, the difference between the hon. Baronet and myself is not a question of party advantage. It is not with me, anyhow. It is because I believe that the present basis of our electoral qualification is wrong and unjust in itself that I have much pleasure in supporting this Bill.
7.0. P.M.
The hon. Member who has just sat down has, like many other supporters of the Bill, given one reason for doing so, and that is that it does not adequately represent his views. There are some other arguments the hon. Member used with which I would like to deal. He gave us at the end of his speech what I may call a tirade against any property qualification whatever. I am certainly not going to be a defender of a purely property qualification, but how far are we to go? If you pursued the argument that the hon. Member has developed, the logical inference would be that you ought to give no vote to a man who has over a certain amount, and that votes should be entirely left to those who are poor and who require them for that reason. The hon. Member made what I thought was a very strange statement. He said that a man's greatest interest, according to which he was bound to be guided, was himself, and that in all political action that was his chief and only motive. Does the hon. Member say that that is his highest ideal of political movement? If we look back at the history of this country, do we find that those who have discharged this duty of citizenship best have been those who have looked merely to their own safety?
I was only pointing out the exceptional nature of the stake in the country of that particular individual.
Yes, I quite understand that. But, for my part, I claim for my fellow citizens they are not thinking of the safety of their own skins when they take certain action in a great crisis in the history of this country. I believe they have a higher object, and I believe, too, that the constituencies of this country will teach the hon. Member that they have some higher object than merely the ^safety of their own skins, or the securing of their own interests. The hon. Member thought he had completely confounded and 'confused us by asking what was the difference between a Referendum and an ordinary election, and why in a Referendum the single vote only should be given, while in an election for a Member of Parliament a man should be allowed to take part in the voting in more than one constituency. It seems to me the difference is almost so self-evident as not to require stating. Is it not perfectly clear that if a distinct and single issue is to be decided, such as the treatment of Ireland, women suffrage, or something of that kind, all votes may be without danger and with very great advantage counted as equal. There is no other way open to us; you cannot possibly have a Referendum unless you have the single vote by the single voter. But it is quite different when you are electing a representative to sit in this House to represent particular localities with all their interests, financial and otherwise. Surely in that case all who have a serious interest in the locality have a right to ask that they shall be given a voice in the selection of a Member to permanently represent them in this House.
The right hon. Gentleman who is in charge of the Bill told us in the course of a somewhat discursive speech, which dealt with a good many other topics than the proposals actually embodied in the Bill, that he was tired of the arguments. For that reason I presume he dealt chiefly with what he thought might, be a bargain between the two sides of the House with regard to the conjunction of Plural Voting and Redistribution Bills. He spoke of a bargain. I am not sure that I like these bargains. A burnt child dreads the fire, and I, for one, am not inclined to enter into any further bargains of the sort. The right hon. Gentleman said he was tired of the arguments that had been adduced for and against this Bill. It is quite true we have had this Bill before us for several years, but when we try to find out what is the principle embodied in it we are faced with the fact that we have had the Bill introduced in half a dozen different shapes, and at each introduction it has been so varied that there is no general principle that can be said to apply to all of them. We had a Bill proposed by the late Sir Charles Dilke. We had another proposed by the present Under-Secretary for War. We had one proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education has been responsible for another Bill of quite a different nature. If there is any common principle involved that can interest the House, why has it been necessary that the Bill should take such a number of totally different shapes? Why, as each successive Bill has been brought forward, has it been so altered as to differ from the preceding Bill on some fundamental point?
I am not going to refer again to the action of Mr. Cobden or Mr. Bright with regard to the creation of faggot votes and the multiplication of plural voting. But I will point out there was a very strong reason for Mr. Gladstone not being strongly in favour of the Plural Voting Bill in 1884. I am old enough to remember the election of Midlothian in 1880, when Mr. Gladstone achieved his great triumph there. That triumph was achieved almost entirely by the creation of faggot votes, chiefly by lawyers in Edinburgh, and it was not likely, therefore, that Mr. Gladstone would have proposed a Plural Voting Bill at that time. I am not going to pursue the well-worn topic on which charges may be bandied from one side to the other as to whether or not we desire some party advantage out of this Bill, or out of the preservation of the present system. But this I will take leave to say. that this Bill cannot have the least effect where there is any great preponderance of popular opinion—working-class opinion, or any other sort of opinion in a particular constituency. It could do no more in any constituency that affect the merest fringe of the voters, and turn the balance one side or the other between the contending parties. If there is a great sweep of democratic opinion in any constituency, this Bill is absolutely worthless to one party or the other to help them to attain their object. There is, of course, a popular appearance—a specious appearance—of democratic movement in this Bill. The poor man requires more power, and this plural voting is a privilege of the rich man. But is the hon. Member quite sure that it is always the richest man who assumes these responsibilities and who is anxious to increase his number of votes? "Punch" used to make fun of Sir Georgius Midas, an ideal specimen of the vulgar rich, who sought to gather all that wealth could produce. But I am not sure that one of the luxuries Sir Georgius Midas desired was increased political influence. He knew how to make his money tell much better than the mere gaining of votes. He got the best of what the world could produce. I would far rather that his influence were exerted in an open, legitimate way than by underhand methods, by secret collusion, or by using his money in the least legitimate way. Of all the influence that wealth can exercise that which is not recognised is certainly the worst. Is it not often the case that a man who has, it may be, a plurality of votes is a man who has interested himself in different localities, has assumed responsibilities with regard to those localities, and has become a leader and guide to his neighbours in each locality; and is it not perfectly legitimate that when an election comes along they should desire not to be deprived of the feeling that he is equally responsible with them for the election of a man as their Parliamentary representative?
To listen to hon. Members opposite, one would think that the object of the vote and the object which every voter had in view when he exercised it was to gain some advantage for himself, and that he thought of nothing but certain interests with which he is identified—that the vote was never exercised except in accordance with something which he believed to be to his own benefit. Is that true of ourselves as Members of the House of Commons? I wonder how many of us on one side or the other have any personal interest with regard to the many questions on which we show the deepest feeling, and on which we have the most firm convictions for which we are ready to do battle? How many on this side or that are affected, say, by the Disestablishment of the Welsh Church; how many are affected, directly and personally, by the state of Ireland; how many are affected by the various financial questions that come before us? We, as representatives, do not act only in our own interests. Some of us opposed the Supertax. I, as a poor man, had not the smallest interest in doing that, and I was faced by a dozen millionaires on the other side who were personally concerned but who did not allow their votes to be affected by their interests. I say, to the honour of this House, we are not affected merely by personal interests, and that being so, is there any ground for assuming that our constituents are only affected by personal interests, that they only use their votes for some purpose of their own, and that if they have no such purpose they will take no interest whatever in an election? Surely the object of the vote is to make this House the best mirror of the country that we can possibly find! That is not done merely by counting votes, or by dividing the country up into equal constituencies. There is nothing more dangerous, nothing I personally dislike more than political jingles or proverbs, such as "One Man One Vote," "One Vote One Ballot." They are likely to lead us into a great many misconceptions and absurdities. I am not particularly anxious that our constituencies should be precisely even. My own Constituency, from a numerical point of view, is considerably larger than any average constituency that could be established. I do not see why every constituency should be of exactly the same size. They should be representative in proportion to their distinctive and individual interests. An agricultural district should have a proportionate representation, although the numbers of the constituents might not be so high. Take the case of Orkney and Shetland. You could never make an average constituency of that if all were to be distributed equally. Orkney and Shetland have their peculiar interests, and when you consider the fact that nothing makes an Orcadian or a Shetlander more angry than to be called a Scotsman, is it not right that they should demand a representative of their own, and is it not fair that that should be given all over the country, and that the old county representation which has entered into the history of this country and is a part of our blood and our tradition should not retain its separate individuality. Nothing crushes down individuality, and nothing monotonises representation more than to have merely equally divided sections of voters without paying the least regard to the interests which bind them together or to the separate individuality of the constituencies. What you want in this House is representation of all the diverse interests of the country, and you cannot get that unless you have men elected to represent each of those interests and each of those sections of the country, elected by the men who hold responsible positions in those sections and who are the leaders and guiders of opinion in those sections.
Take the case of London, or of any large town, and that of the surrounding country. We see hundreds of thousands of men who have their business in London going off at night to the country, and re- turning every morning. Are those men peculiarly lacking in intelligence? Are they not a very strong and intelligent part of the nation? They are men who have knowledge of the town, but in a certain degree they have knowledge of the country districts in which they happen to live. Is that a disability? Will you not allow a man to act except as a pure ctiy man, or a pure countryman? What will be the consequence if you divide them? Either you will drive the city men to vote in the town and renounce their votes in the country, and thus leave the country vote to the men who loiter about, the men you see in the middle of the day in a small country town, probably wasting his time, or not employing himself in any very profitable way, either for himself or his town—that will be the man to whom you will leave the returning of a county Member; or the man in business in the town will have to help in the election of a county Member, in which case you leave the election of a Member for such a place as the City of London to the caretakers of the different offices. Why not recognise what is a reality and a fact that these men have different interests and double responsibilities, and that they take part in different sections of the life of the nation, and why not allow them their fair influence in voting in a place where they discharge those duties and take upon themselves those responsibilities, and where they have proved their right to be considered the most important and leading members of the different societies.
I was very much struck by the illustration used by the hon. Member who has just sat down in regard to the creation of faggot votes in Scotland. If my memory serves me right, it is one of the sights of Edinburgh to be shown the block of buildings which provided the faggot votes for the purpose of defeating Mr. Gladstone. The facts are quite opposite to those as stated by the hon. Member. He asked, "What is the vote for?" and in reply to his own question he said, speaking for his party, that the basis of the plural vote is that of interest. All through the Debate the plea put forward on behalf of the plural voter has been his interest here, there or elsewhere. Our point of view is that a man is a citizen, and that he should give his vote as a citizen, and that one individual is no more in the sight of the State than another. The ideal of sacrifice of self-interest for the greater general interest is more nearly accom- plished by the Bill now before the House. That is a better ideal than that defended by the hon. Member just now. The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) laid down the proposition that in the old time the franchise was settled upon the basis of local representation—that is to say, the representation of local interest in the Parliament of the nation—and he rather argued for the preservation of that state of things. That is exactly what I should stand for, and that is the reason why I am in favour of the Bill before the House, for at the present time the local people, after they have taken the trouble to select a candidate, find that the Member is not elected by the locality, but by people who, after electing a Member in the locality in which they live, come along and decide what Member they shall have. It is in order to preserve the individual constituency that I submit that the persons in that constituency alone should select their representative.
We have had several by-elections recently, including one at Grimsby. I regret very much that I was unable to hear the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Tickler), but in Grimsby, as in other places, I have never found that those who come here and defend plural voting asked to be returned to the House of Commons to do so. They generally mentioned other subjects. I hope the Government will not flinch in regard to this measure. It is not our fault that plural voting has not been abolished before this. The hon. Member who has just sat down referred to the several attempts made in this House to abolish it. This House has already more than once satisfied all the wishes expressed by the critics of this Bill in the Electoral Reform Bill which, in the 1906 Parliament, was introduced by the Secretary of State for the Colonies and passed, but destroyed at the other end of the corridor. It is not our fault that this Parliament has been troubled about the plural voter. The 1906 Parliament dealt with plural voters according to their power, but were overruled in another place. If there is one thing more than another on which the Government may rely, it is that electors in the country are more enthusiastic about this measure than any other in the Government programme. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] There seems to be some dissent from that, but I can take hon. Members to one or two constituencies to prove it. The man in the street expresses himself in the words used by the hon. Member who moved the rejection of the Bill, and who called it a "low-down trick" The average man in the street believes it to be a low-down trick for one man to be allowed to have nine, ten or more votes than he has. The argument as to the stake in the country is answered by the working man who says, "You may have a stake in the country, but I stick to the country. You rich people can leave the country if it suits you to do so, but I have to remain here" The interests of the working men of the country are really greater than the interests of those who are opposed to this Bill. Therefore it is with the greatest confidence that I shall go into the Lobby in support of the Government, believing that they have a large majority of the electorate who are steadily supporting this Bill, and who believe that just as we have fought for religious equality in Wales, so we ought to fight for political equality at the ballot box.
Before I deal with the general question, I should like to say a word as to the offer made by the Leader of the Opposition to the Prime Minister in regard to the Home Rule Bill. I do not think that what he said ought to be quoted against the Unionist party, because the offer was made in very special circumstances. We were trying to save the country from civil war, and when the Prime Minister subjected the Leader of the Opposition to a very severe cross-examination across the Table, he asked him how far he would go. My right hon. Friend first offered a General Election, then a Referendum, and, finally, the Prime Minister asked whether he would be in favour of abolishing plural voting for that purpose. The offer was made for the purpose of one single issue, and it is not fair to bring it forward in this Debate as an argument in favour of abolishing the plural vote. The two things are entirely distinct. In one case you take one particular subject, and put the cut-and-dried question, "Are you in favour of the Home Rule Bill or not?" and in the other you are asking men to elect a Member for this House. The Leader of the Opposition said he would agree to the abolition of the plural vote for that occasion only. I only say that in order to answer the hon. Member for Hoxton (Dr. Addison). On the general question, I consider that the Government are trustees for the nation and for the State in any question of reform. Undoubtedly this is a Reform Bill; therefore they ought to be particularly careful to see that they hold the scales evenly between the parties when they have the power to bring in such a measure. I have been here the whole of the afternoon and heard every word said on this subject, and I say to-day, as I said on the last occasion, that it is the business of this House, and ought to be the desire of this House generally, to get the best kind of Government that we can for this country, arid also to take the means by which that is most fairly arrived at.
We have been taunted with saying that we are in favour of the argument with regard to a stake in the country. That is a principle to which I adhere. I do not say that it should be necessarily a monetary stake, but a man who has a large stake in the country ought to have more voting power and more electoral power than a man who has a less stake. On the last occasion I used the simile of the limited liability company, and to-day the case of the co-operative society has been brought forward, in which every single person who belongs to one of the great co-operative societies has a separate and individual vote. I challenge hon. Members opposite to say whether in regard to their own businesses they would give equal voting power to any workman under them who holds one or two shares while they hold the bulk of the shares? No reply was given to that challenge, and I do not think that the majority of them would do such a thing for a moment in regard to their own businesses. Yet they come down and ask that noses should be counted, and that men should only have one vote. The result of this Bill will be that you will bleed the universities white. You do not, of course, abolish the university vote, but practically you do so because men will naturally vote in the constituencies in which they live rather than vote for the universities. By that means we shall largely lose the benefit of the educational vote. I would amend the franchise in the direction of giving additional votes to those who have the best educational qualifications. I would go farther still, and give additional votes in the case of fathers who are bringing up sons for the benefit of the Empire. As a matter of fact, we are giving away too much electoral power. All classes in the State should have an equal and fair amount of electoral power. We have seen, of course, in the years which have gone by the power pass from the Crown to the aristocracy and from the aristocracy to the middle classes, and now it is very largely in the hands of the working classes, solely because of the fact of their numbers. Everyone will agree that the largest crowd has not necessarily the greatest amount of wisdom. In fact, we have seen in many cases that the very opposite is the case. Therefore, I deny that the body which possesses the greatest numbers should have the greatest power.
Look at recent legislation. Look at the Bills which have recently been passed. Under the Old Age Pensions Act people are not now disqualified from the pauper qualification. They remain all the winter in the poorhouse, and if they like to come out in the summer for a change and rely upon their pensions and pick up what casual labour they like, they can come out. But they are not disqualified by any means from their electoral qualification. Therefore, a person who has been a hopeless failure in the State has electoral power equal to those who have a very much larger stake in the country. They can combine together for the purpose of forcing their Member to reduce the age from seventy to sixty. That, I think, is an extension of the franchise in the wrong direction. The same thing, of course, applies with regard to the Education (Provision of Meals) Act of 1906. People who are not able to supply their children with food can now have their meals provided by the State. Sometimes it may be that a man is proved to be able to pay for them, and there is machinery whereby the money can be attempted to be recovered; but a person looking to the State and then defrauding the State may still have the qualification to vote for Members of Parliament. The third object-lesson I will give in which the pendulum has swung too far is the case of the present Budget. We are not voting taxation for necessary or for merely revenue purposes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has budgeted for a large number of social and philanthropic reforms which he is very anxious to pass into law, but of which at present he has given us no particulars, and which actually need legislation before they can be properly discussed, and yet we have already voted the money for the purpose. There, again, the pendulum has swung too far. This Bill is an unpopular one because it is part of a very much larger measure. Member after Member on the other side has fairly and honestly admitted that it will benefit their side. They also made the tu quoque that if that is the case it cannot benefit our side. We ought to look at something higher than that—something beyond whether it will benefit one party or the other. The Government are in the position of trustees. They hold the scales, and they certainly ought not to weight the scales against their opponents. They had a larger Bill in which it was admitted that there were a great many things that we were in favour of, but that has all been jettisoned, and we simply have this one Bill which works very strongly in their favour.
When we think of the plural voting that goes on in a place like Kilkenny as compared with Romford—which has thirty times the voting power of Kilkenny—and when we think that 40 per cent. of the electorate in Scotland are Unionists, and yet there are only eight Unionist Scottish Members out of seventy-four, we naturally protest, and feel very strongly that the Government are not treating us fairly by forcing this Bill through the House of Commons when there is no Second Chamber to revise it in any way. It is a disfranchising Bill. Mr. Gladstone always said that no Bill should be a disfranchising Bill. It takes away electoral power, and for that reason alone ought to be very carefully safeguarded by the Government. The Prime Minister, in 1912, freely admitted that there were advantages to his party in the abolition of plural voting, and that there were disadvantages to us on the other side. Again, I do not think the Government realise the immense amount of expense which will be put on the country, and also on the individual Members of Parliament who will be elected. Every registration agent or election agent will tell you that this is going to cause a great deal of confusion. At present it only seems a simple Bill, but when you think that there will have to be two registers kept, a register for General Elections and a register for by-elections, you will begin to understand something of the difficulties which will occur. Again, look at the pressure which will be brought on the individual voter as to where he should vote. Talk about the old days of the hustings, when men were almost torn in halves as to whether they should go on one platform or the other, those times will almost return when a man is urged to vote in the constituency where his vote is needed. On these grounds I submit that this Bill is not a fair measure. It has been thoroughly well thrashed out and debated, but I do not think that the Government have made out a case for doing away with the plural voter. Radicals like John Stuart Mill and Liberals like Mr. Gladstone and others, saw far more fairly than the Members of the present Government that a balance of power should be maintained between the various classes. As the Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil) said, you are not representing real membership, but you are representing constituencies and areas, and, of course, as long as we recognise and realise that principle, plural voting must be part of that system.
I support this Bill because I believe that the voters resident in a constituency are the ones who ought to be called upon to choose the Member for their constituency. I have listened in vain during this Debate for any valid reason in support of plural voting. There has been no attempt to justify the present registration laws. Indeed, anything more haphazard and happy-go-lucky than the present law it would be impossible to imagine. The anomalies are so numerous that they appear to tumble over each other in a chaotic jumble. The Bill will take away what we regard as a longstanding injustice, and it is for that reason that I support it, and I am delighted that the Government are pressing it forward, and I hope they will leave no stone unturned to carry it into law. Take my own case. I am qualified in all the three electoral divisions of the city of Nottingham, but I have only one vote. A freeholder in the almost adjoining city of Lincoln, because he is a freeholder there, is entitled to vote in the division of Gainsborough. No one can justify a position like that. Plural voting to-day is, in my opinion, indefensible, and it is only fair to say that it has not been seriously defended in this House. The Leader of the Opposition gave the case away completely for plural voting when, in asking for a Referendum, he said he would be willing for that purpose to abolish plural voting. In view of these facts, I would ask why should not the Leader of the Opposition give what is called the signal to another place to pass this Bill on the second time of asking, instead of prolonging the agony and waiting till it automatically becomes law under the Parliament Act? I am not without hope that so desirable a course will yet be adopted and the Bill will be passed in another place in this Session of Parliament.
The hon. Member (Mr. J. W. Taylor) told us that the people of this country were more enthusiastic for this measure than for any other before Parliament, and that has been the burden of the speech of more than one hon. Member opposite. I_suggest that they are wrong. They are making the common mistake of confusing party with people. The people are not very enthusiastic over this measure; the Liberal party, perhaps, are. If the people are enthusiastic to have it passed into law, they have not communicated their enthusiasm to the benches opposite. There has been a very poor attendance all day, and very half-hearted speeches. The Liberal party, I admit, are enthusiastic to get the Bill passed into law by means of the Parliament Act. Someone sent me the other day a paper called "The Liberal Monthly," which had a very well-drawn cartoon. It represented the Prime Minister sitting in a well-appointed motor car, which he was driving, numbered Al, and in it there were three well-dressed passengers, the Welsh Bill, the Irish Bill and the Plural Voting Bill. But in this Premier's "joy-ride," who has the seat of honour alongside of him? Not the great Irish Bill and not the great, popular Welsh Bill, but this poor, little One-Clause Plural Voting Bill. I quite admit that if I were in the Premier's place I should be disposed to put the Plural Voting Bill in the place of honour alongside me. I should say to myself these supporters of mine in the House have been chained to their benches like galley slaves for so many years without any relaxation at all. They have had to work for me, keeping me on the Front Bench, in office, and I, at any rate, ought to do the very best I can for them. If I can pass this Bill into law, and if it will give them a certain amount of support which otherwise they would lose, it is certainly my duty to do everything I can to pass the Bill and to stay in office long enough to do it. That may be one reason, and in the opinion of hon. Gentlemen opposite a very good reason. But another aspect of this case is that this Bill has a very important meaning, and a very sinister meaning to the country. If this Bill is to be passed into law the Government has got to stay in office another year in order that that may be done. If they are going to stay in office, they have to get the support of hon. Members below the Gangway, and it means that there is to be no settlement by consent of the Irish question. [An HoN. MEMBER: "Why not?"] If what the Government propose does not please hon. Members below the Gangway, it means that there is to be no summoning of the Irish Parliament until after this Bill becomes law, and it means that there must be many more months of intolerable tension for Ireland and the nation at large. That is perfectly certain, and all that is to happen if this Bill is to become law.
Surely it is rather a curious reflection that this Bill is to be passed into law by the aid of the 85 votes of the party below the Gangway. I would point out that during the greater part of this Debate there has not been a single Nationalist Member here at all, and at present there are only four—[An HON. MEMBER: "Seven."]—and yet it is by the votes of the hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway that this Bill is going to be passed into law and also by the thirty or forty votes of the Labour party. What is actually the chief charge against the plural voter? Why is he the man to be pursued in the masses of the electorate? He is supposed to be an individual who swoops down in a motor on the day of an election in a constituency, gets out of his car and drops a vote into the ballot box, which in three cases out of four is against the Liberal party. He then goes on to pursue the same kind of work in another division. That is the popular representation of the plural voter—a. man not particularly interested in a locality, and not resident in it. I quite admit that it was the old theory—it has been renounced to-day by more than one speaker—that a Member of Parliament should be sent here by his constituents who were themselves living in a division to represent them directly in Parliament. The old idea was that boroughs chose burgesses, and that counties chose their knights, and that they went up to Parliament to see that their particular borough or county did not get injustice. They were in Parliament to champion the interests of their locality—nothing more and nothing less. Surely we are moving back the clock in this respect. Dockyard Members ought not to be sneered at for looking after the interests of their constituents. They are men who are supposed to come here to represent the particular interests of their constituents, and to get what they can from the Government Department for them. If they are successful, they get more votes when they seek re-election, and if they are unsuccessful they get turned out. Very often they are sneered at, I think, undeservedly.
Supposing the Budget of 1914 becomes law, then I say that the dockyard Member will be the rule and not the exception. What will happen? If that Budget becomes law, every Member will come to the House to get what he can for the relief of the ratepayers in his division. The Member would have to do the best he could with respect to the twenty-three separate Grants. It is perfectly obvious that the more votes he got the bigger would be the Grants he got. I submit in all sincerity that that will be the state of affairs. We will simply be plausible beggars, and according to our success so will our majorities be at the next General Election. That is the state of affairs which prevails in more than one continental country, and it is deplored in these countries where long ago they abolished the plural vote. May I remind the House that in the case of France President Poincaré said:—
Take another and more interesting case of how these petty interests swamp Parliaments on the Continent. Some years ago I was going through the Danish House of Parliament at Copenhagen, and I asked various questions as to the seats occupied by supporters of the Government and by Members of the Opposition. I was informed that the various Members sat in the seats allotted to them. An official took me to the House and pointed out that on each seat was written the locality from which a Member came. We want to get away from all that. Surely petty parochialism ought not to obtain in this Parliament of ours. Where does the plural voter come in? The plural voter lets a ray of something in the nature of Imperial politics into this which would otherwise be petty parochialism. That is what he has done, and, if allowed, he will do it in future. That is what we want to get at the present moment. We are in danger of going back to this petty parochialism and of having men coming up here to try to save the pockets of the ratepayers they represent. Is it likely that a man who is a plural voter would journey from London to Shropshire, and then from Shropshire to some other county, to vote for Members of Parliament to represent parochial interests? He will vote for men who represent the bigger interests, and who will not come here merely because certain people who sent them will be able to get good Grants from the representatives of the Treasury. Therefore, we ought to try to support the men who can rise above petty parochialism. I do submit that this Bill is a retrograde measure, and I shall vote against it.
I am rather interested in this Debate, because it has developed a good many unexpected features. We have not had really a discussion of the Bill at all, but we have had a great number of questions brought forward which have been full of entertainment and information for me. I do not think that they have been directly pertinent to the question before the House. The speech of the hon. Member (Mr. Newman) was extremely interesting as to the life of a Member of Parliament in Paris and the Danish capital, but what had his stories to do with plural voting in this country? I am sure that none on this side could understand the application to the question before the House. I have been extremely struck in looking over the history of this subject to find how many Members of the Conservative party at one time and another have expressed their strong adhesion to the principle of one man one vote. There are quite a number of Members in this House—I see only one present at the moment—who have strongly supported that principle. I propose, first of all, to call the attention of the House to the fact that a right hon. Gentleman the Member whose absence, I suppose, is most regretted—I mean the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. J. Chamberlain)—has always been strongly in favour of the abolition of the plural voter. I would like to quote the words which he used in 1885, and which, so far as I know, he has never on any occasion diverged from. He said:—
I believe these words, uttered a good many years ago, given in the cogent style of which the right hon. Gentleman was such a master, express the sense of political justice of all parties in the House. That is the principle we have in this Bill, which to my mind, with all its shortcomings, makes it well worth fighting for and carrying through Parliament. It is the principle that every householder has an equal stake in the good government of the country. I am glad also to be able to point to quite a number of Members of the Conservative party who, during the present Session, have given their adherence to this principle. Among these is the hon. Member for the Honiton Division (Major Morrison-Bell), who is well known as a great authority on electoral reform. Speaking in 1911, in the lifetime of the present Parliament, and shortly before this Bill, or a Bill for the same object, was going to be introduced, he used these words:— this is particularly a corrective for hon. Members on the other side of the House—
I am glad to see the Noble Lord (Lord Robert Cecil) in his place. I am rather surprised that he has not risen during the course of the Debate, because I dare say that he remembers that on more than one occasion—I have got a quotation from one of his speeches here, but it was not on a single occasion only—he strongly supported the principle of "one man one vote." Of course, he may distinguish between the principle of "one man one vote," and this Bill, I admit, but do not let us be told that there is no principle in this Bill except purely to gain a party advantage, and a pure desire to gerrymander a constituency. That is not so at all. We have in this Bill the principle put, as we can see, in the simplest manner of "one man one vote." That principle has. the support of the Noble Lord. Speaking on 15th December, 1911, he said:— Perhaps that was why the Noble Lord was absent when his noble kinsman the Member for the University of Oxford (Lord Hugh Cecil) was giving expression to very different sentiments—
Take this question of the Redistribution of seats. It may be said that if we had this offer accepted it either could not be carried through in time or that it would not have been fairly considered by the country. I think that neither of those replies can be urged seriously. Suppose it be said that it is now too late in the life of this Parliament to raise Redistribution at all, that has been very fairly met, I believe, already in a manner which has not excited, I think, the attention that it ought to receive, in what the President of the Board of Education said on the 27th. of April. He pointed out that if you appoint a Royal Commission to settle the boundary and give it clear and distinct lines on which it is to go in carving out the new constituencies, the work can be done very quickly. He pointed out that in 1884 the negotiations between the Leaders of the two parties came to a conclusion on the 27th of November, and in less than three months later, on the 19th of February, the Redistribution Bill completely passed this House. Within three months Redistribution was settled both by the Boundaries Commissioners and the House of Commons. That is a very remarkable achievement. But if both sides were to co-operate in this matter why should it not be settled now with just the same dispatch? I am not myself, on principle, very much in favour of matters of great import being settled by the two Front Benches behind the backs of Members of Parliament without discussion. But we have had a very long discussion for years on this question of Redistribution and electoral reform, and if anybody cares to look up old speeches that: I have looked up, he will find speeches on the point by Lord Lansdowne and Lord St. Aldwyn in the House of Lords, and by many Members of the House of Commons. I have already quoted three, and I could quote the hon. Member for Chelmsford himself on the occasion of his moving the rejection of the Second Reading of this Bill last year. He put the point very clearly that when you come really to deal with electoral reform the plural vote is as likely as not to go. He did not go beyond that, but evidently quite clearly he realises that in a complete scheme of electoral reform the plural vote must go. We are bound to get the plural vote going. Why not have the complete scheme which you profess to desire? You can have it merely for the asking, not in twelve months, but in three months. Why will you not accept that offer, and, if you refuse, why cannot some adequate reason be given which will assure us that you are really playing a wild party game, rather than showing a serious desire to carry out the principle which you have so long accepted? I may quote the actual words which the hon. Member for Chelmsford used. He said:— That ought to be repeated a great many times to-day, because we have had several speeches on the opposite side which have gone merely, as far as they have been attacking this Bill on electoral reform lines, to confute that proposition of the hon. Member. He then went on to say:—
It being Quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put.
Private Business
MIDDLESEX COUNTY COUNCIL (WESTERN ROAD AND IMPROVEMENTS AND FINANCE) BILL.—(By Order.)
Order for consideration, as amended, read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill, as amended, be considered upon this day three months."
I submit this Motion, because I think sthat the House of Commons ought to have its attention drawn to certain novel principles which are introduced, for the first time, in the Bill which is before the House. I should like to state that I am myself interested to some extent, as chairman of one of the companies, which is the company, perhaps, most of all affected by the provisions of the Bill, namely, the Brentford Gas Company. The point I desire to bring before the House is this: As the law at present stands, and as it has been fixed for a considerable number of years, it has been the practice to grant facilities to those who are carrying on public utility services, to lay their mains in any streets or highways within the area of their districts. That has been the law ever since the year 1849, and it has been the law with regard to many of those public utility companies which started earlier than 1847. The particular company of which I am chairman started in 1845 under private Acts which gave it facilities, as did also, later, general Acts relating to gas works and water works. This Bill has been promoted by the Middlesex County Council for an object which I think will have the sympathy of every Member of the House. It is a Bill for making a new approach to London from the western part of the county. Shortly speaking, the road is five miles long, and extends to Chiswick. It is to be eighty feet wide, and is promoted with the object of relieving the extremely congested traffic in that part of London. Anybody who drives a motor, or even walks, along the Brentford High Street knows that it is one of the most uncomfortable places in which he can be. The Brentford highway in one place is only nineteen feet wide. The object of the Bill is to establish a wide approach, and to relieve the congestion in this narrow road, along which, unfortunately, there are tramways. So that everyone has sympathy with this project and the object of the Bill.
But two novel principles have been introduced. With one of them I do not propose to deal, and doubtless it will be discussed by some other hon. Member. The old law gave rights to public utility companies, by which I mean water companies and telephone companies (until they came under the Postmaster-General), pneumatic companies, high-pressure gas companies, and other companies undertaking public services, in fact, all the modern undertakers who have been given statutory powers to use the highways and streets, as wayleave for carrying out the services with which they have been entrusted by Parliament. The law today is that the whole of the under soil from fence to fence, from enclosure to enclosure, on both sides of the road, is available for the purpose of laying the mains needed by those public utility companies or municipalities. The Bill before the House now introduces this novel principle—I am not finding any fault with it— that no pipes can be laid in the carriage way. I quite agree that everybody feels a great deal of irritation when the road is up, and I am not suggesting or finding the slightest fault with the provision made by this Bill for confining those who want to lay pipes or cables, or whatever it may be, to the side walks. I have nothing whatever to say with regard to that provision. But the point to which I desire to call the attention of the House is whether there is sufficient room in the footways for those who are under statutory obligations for the benefit and convenience of the public. The restriction would be utterly impossible, in the present case, if the road is constructed as it is stated it is going to be constructed, and, indeed, it would be utterly prohibitive to any company that wanted to lay mains longitudinally in the public highway. I cannot find any fault with the condition that the carriage-way is not to be utilised for the purpose of laying these pipes and mains. The road is to be made to last for a considerable number of years, and, as the promoters hope, carry a large amount of traffic, and I have no doubt that it will satisfy their hopes and will result in the development of a considerable area along both sides of the thoroughfare.
But I wish to point out the exact position with regard to the proposed road. The promoters, as I have pointed out, are to provide one 80 ft. wide, and on each side they have arranged for a footway of 14 ft. The engineer of the Middlesex County Council, in his evidence, to which I can refer if necessary, looked upon the actual space allowed for any particular laying of pipes as a detail. It appeared that he thought, "If I give you 14ft., that must be enough; you settle it among yourselves; there is plenty for all" That is the attitude, so far as I understand, that was adopted when the actual space of 14ft, on each side was arranged. As far as I know, I am speaking of the water companies and all those who will lay pipes along this road, there was no consultation with them as to what they would in fact require. That is a novel principle, and if this Bill is passed it would form a precedent for other Bills, and there will not be any municipality or public utility company but will find itself in exactly the same position as we are, who are bound to render public utility services in their particular districts, and who are now, for the first time, face to face with this novel principle. The matter is, therefore, one of very considerable importance, and may form a precedent which will affect a number of interests all over the country, and not merely those which are concerned at the present time.
May I explain why it is that there is not sufficient room left for the public utility companies to perform their obligations? The 14 ft. space is to be utilised by not only all who have public utility services to fulfil, but by those who are responsible for the biggest mains of all, namely, the sewers, and also the trunk mains designed to go along this road and to carry water from the Upper Thames to supply the necessities of London. As I understand it, this proposal is that on one side of the road, one of those 14 ft. sideways, there is to be laid a main for the Metropolitan Water Board—a 4 ft. main. It is not only the 4 ft. which the main requires, but there will be junctions for which a still greater amount of space will have to be allowed on both sides. I think that I shall be perfectly reasonable if I say that in every one of those great mains it is necessary practically to allow for an extra 6 ins. on both sides for those junctions. You may, by this Bill, dovetail the junctions on one side of the pipe in such a way that they do not actually come opposite each other, but still that is a matter of considerable arrangement, and I think, practically, you must allow the 6 inches. On this side, where you have this great 4-ft. water main, you have 5 ft. already taken up with a water main which is a trunk main, and does not supply the district locally. That is using this road as an aqueduct in exactly the same way as the companies use land which they have compulsory power to acquire. It has been recognised that most of the water companies, in order to get the water direct to London, ought to have compulsory power to buy a strip of land for the purpose of the company. That power dates back to 1608, and in the Thames Valley you can see those aqueducts carrying the supply straight away from the intake. Practically the Middlesex County Council are going to permit, as I understand, the Metropolitan Water Board to use one strip of this pavement as an aqueduct. That takes away 5 ft. That is the first grievance that we experience on this side.
The next thing is the sewers. You cannot have a road unless you have sewers and you must have two sorts. It is contemplated that along this road there will be valuable house property and buildings of various kinds and, of course, it will be necessary to drain them. The whole of the drainage of those houses is going underneath the sideway. In addition to that, there must be drainage of the surface water. Thus, you have got to provide two lines of sewers, one for the drainage of the houses and the other for the drainage of the surface water. Constructed in the most economical way, those two sewers will practically occupy from 4 ft. to 4ft. 6 ins., and those will be alongside the 5-ft. water main. Then comes along the person represented on the Front Bench here who cannot be denied. He is, I am sure, going to exercise his discretion in a most reasonable manner, but still the Postmaster-General is going to lay his cables and lines for telephones and telegraphs. He comes along and says, "I must have proper and reasonable space." He does not specify what space he requires for his cables, but I am instructed that the amount of space under the most moderate conditions will be at least 3 ft. Then there must also be inspection chambers for the purpose of periodical inspection, and those occupy a space of 3 ft., or very often it may be more. The Postmaster-General would naturally insist on having 3 ft. reserved for himself on this side of the road of which I have been speaking. Those matters. I have mentioned will occupy 12 ft., leaving 2 ft. for gas companies and for electric mains, which also require their inspection boxes, and, in addition to that, for any other public utility which may be required in the future. We do not know what those requirements may be, but let me point out that the number of public utility companies that have been using the road for the last twenty years, as compared with the previous time, has increased very much. We have hydraulic mains, high-pressure mains, and all the other conveniencies which civilisation requires. The electric lighting company will require inspection chambers very little less than those of the Postmaster-General, and there is really no room where they can put those chambers, as well as the Postmaster-General, unless they actually impinge on the carriage way.
I have tried to explain what the position of affairs is with regard to the subsoil. I wish to be perfectly fair. That is the side of the road where the Metropolitan Water Board is running its aqueduct, and, on the other side, there is more space. In the list of those likely to use the sideway to which I have been referring, I omitted to mention that if there are houses along this road, then there must also be a water main To supply those houses. I suppose that will be even more important than a gas company, and will probably come before it. I am instructed that that will probably be a 6-in. main, and, if you allow for junctions, it will probably take up a foot. That has got to be put into the 2 ft. remaining along with the gas company and the electric lighting company. On the other side there is more space. About 8 ft. 3 ins. is occupied by the various public utilities which I have mentioned, and there remains 5 ft. 9 ins. Out of that, you first of all allow for a water service supply main of 9 ins., which leaves 5ft. for an electric lighting company and a gas company. I admit that the gas company would be enabled to have their main there, but I submit that that is not quite sufficient for companies which have obligations of public utility, and also for the future. You are not, surely, going to stereotype this road and prevent its development? You are making it for a long time, and if you are statesmen you should desire to see far into the future and to make reasonable provision for the time that is coming on, and also for the new users of this road. When it came to the evidence the engineer for the Middlesex County Council was asked what did he think would be the diameter that the gas company would want, or what he would suggest, in order to lay down its main, and he said an 8-in. main. Anybody who knows anything about the distribution of gas knows quite well that gas is not like water. [An HoN. MEMBER: "Hear, hear.] I thank the hon. Member. Water does not, I admit., happen to be so profitable. You can get enormous pressure from water but you cannot get such pressure from gas. Therefore, gas mains, for the supplying a similar district to that supplied by a water main require to be larger than the water main. An 8-in. main is the sort of main usually laid down by any gas company which knows its business in a rather inferior street with dwellings of from£10 to£20 rental. That is the provision which the engineer of the Middlesex County Council has made.
If I may allude to the local point of view—that is to say, of the district which is to be served by the gas company, it is a very large area of some fifty square miles at the present time, and covers some twenty-one different townships in Middlesex and Surrey. The pride of this particular company is that it is about the most democratic gas company in England today, certainly in the Metropolitan area, because from a census that has been taken we find that something like 90 per cent, of the houses in the area take gas from this company. It is not what might be called a grand residential area; there are some good houses, of course, but the bulk of the gas is sold to workmen's dwellings by the penny in the slot system and otherwise. To show that that is so, I may mention that the maximum hour of consumption was yesterday at mid-day, which shows that the gas is more used by the poor who cook their dinner on Sunday at mid-day than at any other time in the whole of the 365 days of the year. That shows that we are doing our best to cater for the needs of the working man, and we have been successful to the extent that I have mentioned. We anticipate, as the Middlesex County Council also anticipate, that there will be a development along this road. We shall naturally profit in that development, as will everybody else. No doubt the Middlesex County Council will profit in that development. I hope that they will have a great addition to their rateable value for county purposes. We are not antagonistic in the slightest degree to the Middlesex County Council; we wish them all success. But the suggestion that an 8-in. main is sufficient to cope with the development which is anticipated by the Middlesex County Council, and hoped for by everybody in the district, is almost childish. It is almost childish to suppose that any real development of the countryside can possibly be coped with through mains of this character. It was a 30-in. main that the engineer of the company said ought to be laid to meet the possible development of the surrounding area. It was not suggested, and it was never supposed, that a 30-in. main was required for the purpose of the trunk main, but merely to meet the expected development which will follow the road.
It may be said that along this road there are many cross roads, and the Middlesex County Council have made arrangements for crossings, which arrangements have met with the favour of those who use pipes, and these crossings take place where the roads will cross the line of the new road. If there is not some sort of arrangement by which we can utilise this new five-mile road, it means that practically we shall have to get our mains from the cross roads. The engineer to the Middlesex County Council, in his evidence, hoped that the gas and other companies would lay their mains longitudinally along this road, and the provision he has made is this ridiculous one, which is practically hardly more than sufficient to light the road with public lamps and supply the shops and houses there. There are cross roads, and it may be said that we can get our mains down those cross roads, and, from the point where the cross roads cross the big roads, lead our mains to the new district. That depends largely on whether in the developed area there are new roads made which will join the cross roads further up. The fact is that at the western end of this road, owing to there being some private parks, there are no roads for a space of at least two miles; I believe it is three miles, but. I do not wish to exaggerate, and therefore I will say two miles. Hence we shall be in the position— which any gas distribution engineer will admit to be perfectly ridiculous—of having to carry the gas required for this district on the north and south sides of the road, a distance of two miles in an 8-in. main. I do not know whether there is anyone here with an expert knowledge of the requirements of a gas company when supplying a district along a line two miles long. If there is, he will agree that it would be absolutely ridiculous to suppose that anybody could supply a district with any sort of consumption over a distance of two miles along a road of this nature with such a main. There may be many cases where an 8-in. main can, for a short distance, be used; but for a long distance it is wholly impossible for a proper supply to be maintained.
The second point which I wish to raise is, as I said, novel. At any rate, so far as I understand, the principle is novel as applied to the particular class of vehicle, which, under this Bill, is to pay a special mileage rate along this road. I am not finding any fault with the principle—not the slightest. I merely say that it is a novel principle, and I do not think that it is one which ought to be followed in the particular instance to which it is here applied. Because it practically applies to the omnibus companies, and the omnibuses are the poor man's carriage, or the poor man's motor. The poor man's motor is singled out in this particular instance—of course there are others—for a special tax to maintain this road. That is a novel principle. I do not say it is a wrong principle. That for the moment is not for me to deal with. But it is a principle which, I think, is one to which the attention of the House ought to be drawn. It is for that purpose that I mention it. I desire in the strongest way I can to protest against the difficulties which have been placed in the way of the people, who, under Acts of Parliament, have been used to have sufficient road space to carry on the duties with which they are entrusted.
Amendment not seconded.
Bill, as amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Plural Voting Bill
Postponed proceeding resumed on Amendment to Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
Which Amendment was to leave out the word 'now' stand part of the Question." tion to add the words "upon this day three months."
Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question." Debate resumed.
I rise to resume the discussion on the Third Beading of the Plural Voting Bill. May I say, in opposing the Motion, it seems to me that the other side use to far greater advantage than this side the plural voter, yet they are apparently prepared, if they are able, to take away the plural voters from this side. I regard by far the greatest case of plural voting operating in this House that of the Irish plural voter. In effect, every Irish voter is a plural voter compared with the English voter. That can be proved mathematically or accurately almost to a decimal. Before, however, going into that question I should like to deal with one or two matters that have cropped up in debate, and which have not been answered. One regrets when speaking at this time that hon. Members who raised these points are not here, and that therefore, they must be referred to in their absence. In the first place, I should like to say a word in answer to my Noble Friend the Member or Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil). In the course of his speech he brought in the question of proportional representation as the real and only possible method of having, what he called, one vote, one value. It is not my purpose to deal at any length with the question of proportional representation. But I think it is right that the other point of view should be put before the House, and that the question of proportional representation should not go unanswered. The Noble Lord said that we, in this country, can never really get the principle of "One vote, one value" without adopting that system.
I think that the Noble Lord was right if we take his word literally and in a theoretical sense, but I maintain that we in this country would get "One vote, one value" in an adequate way and with sufficient accuracy if we had equal member constituencies. No substantial injustice would be done to anybody if the constituencies were equalised as near as it is possible to equalise them. In fact, you would get what the House has at present, namely, majority rule. In every constituency it would be possible for everybody to vote for their particular candidate, and the man who got a majority of votes would necessarily come to this House. As a workable scheme, that would give adequate justice as between man and man, provided all the constituencies were equal. That is only putting the case very briefly, but though theoretically the supporters of proportional representation can put forward a good case for one vote one value, there are other disadvantages in that system which it would take too long for me to speak about—at any rate, this is not the right time for me to go into the matter now—and which I can only briefly summarise. One is that by the result of your election you would probably not get an adequate majority in this House to carry on at anything like a stable Government. We should have in this House government by groups, instead of there being two main parties. It is only necessary for hon. Members to think about what is at present taking place in the neighbouring; country of France to see how impossible it would be to suit English conditions by having a majority so unstable that any small group could, it might be, paralyse its efforts.
It must be remembered—and the Noble Lord referred to this point—that through this method of proportional representation you would greatly reduce the size of the majority in this House. The Noble Lord referred to the fact that the majority which the Coalition now has is something like a hundred, but that it would have been, under any system of proportional representation, something like thirty-eight at the last General Election. It has been reduced since then, so that it would be considerably less now. Anyone can see that a majority of thirty-eight would never have carried some of the measures that passed last Session. Some of the major Bills, like the Welsh Church Bill, owe their safety, so far, entirely to the self-denying efforts of the Irish party. But for that fact, it is perfectly obvious to anyone, that the fate of the Welsh Church Bill would have been sealed, and with it the fate of the Government. We do not want in this country to exchange what we have got now, two stable parties who can generally command an adequate majority in this House, for some system of groups which would be, I think, the inevitable concomitant of any system of proportional representation. That is one of the main objections—though of course, there are others—but that is sufficient for me now to deal with on that subject in reply to what the Noble Lord said. Hon. Members on the other side pillory the plural voter. They are perfectly oblivious to the fact that they are by far the greatest gainers in this House by the plural voting system.
How?
The hon. Member asks, "How?" I hope I shall be able to explain that. It is true, leaving out the voter on the Register, who is what I call the legal voter—that by far the greatest plural voter, and the one that has had by far the most influence in this House for the last four years, is the Irish plural voter.
Why do you keep him here then? Why not let him go?
The hon. Member asks me why we keep him here. The President of the Board of Education, in reply to the speech of the mover of this Motion, said that by the Home Rule Bill they were going to reduce the Irish Members in this House. With great respect I say they are going to do nothing of the sort. Members opposite will have the benefit of the Irish plural voter, and all he can do for them, for the whole of this year and probably for the whole of next year. It is possible—I do not think hon. Members can have studied the Home Rule Bill sufficiently—it is possible under the very provisions of that Bill, that the Irish Members in full force may be sitting here in 1916, even if the Bill were signed next month! The right hon. Gentleman said that he was going to do away with the plural voter. Very likely in some distant future, if the Bill ever becomes law he is going to do away with him, but it is perfectly possible that up to February, 1916, we may still have the pleasure of the hon. Member sitting there with the whole of his; one hundred and three Irish colleagues. And 80 per cent, of them vote with hon. Members on the opposite side of the House. Is there anything in plural voting to compare with that? Every Irish elector has double the power of every English elector in this House. Let us see how that works out. I am glad to see some Members of the Labour party present. These Gentlemen profess democratic principles. I should be glad to hear how the principles they profess coincide with their practice. In dealing with this, question I have always taken the Home Rule Bill as an illustration. I will take another Bill—the Welsh Church Bill. Hon. Members apparently on the other side of the House never object to use the Irish plural voter provided he votes for their measure. It is only by means of the Irish plural voter that the Welsh Church Bill has got as far as it has got. In: Ireland it takes 6,700 electors to return a representative to this House—I am. taking the whole of the 103 Members. In England it takes 13,200, almost exactly double, to return each of the 465 Members, Is there anything in. plural voting to compare with that? And remember that over 80 per cent, of the Irish Members returned vote with the party opposite! That does not scandalize the Labour party. Do Members of the Labour party get up and say, "We refuse to be parties to robbing the Welsh Church because it is aided by Irish plural voters" I The hon. Member for Somerset always; addresses the House with much information.
9. 0 P. M.
I am sorry I did not hear his speech tonight, but I shall read it to-morrow. Has; the hon. Member ever raised his voice against that? He does not like the plural voter because he votes for Members on this side. I have heard the hon. Member say that he was in favour of "one man one vote, one vote one value." I never heard him say that he is not prepared to use the Irish plural voter in favour of the Welsh Church Bill. He is prepared to use the Irish plural voter now and until the year 1916, if they are still here, as they can be, and he is prepared to take every advantage which their votes give him. That does not distress the democratic feelings of the Labour party, but that is why I oppose this Plural Voting Bill. I am prepared to trade with hon. Members opposite—of course I only express my own opinion—but I am prepared to give the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Gentlemen opposite all they have put forward on the franchise question. I would give them their Franchise Bill and the Plural Voting Bill in return for one thing, and that is that the vote of an Englishman should count the same as the vote of an Irishman on the question of the Union and the Welsh Church Bill. I do not want you to use the plural voter to smash the Union and to rob the Welsh Church. Is there anything anti-democratic in that view? I would go further than some of my hon. Friends on this side, but equality would not suit hon. Members opposite. They will use the Irish plural voters in order to get their own ends, and then they will consider putting matters on a fair basis. That is trying to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. They want to have it both ways. I am prepared to trade with hon. Gentlemen on the basis I have suggested, but otherwise I shall oppose this Bill up till the last moment. And that is the real ground I have against this Bill. I do not go as far as some of my Friends in opposition to the Bill as a Plural Voting Bill. I do not believe in that advantage from plural voting that is often claimed. Let me make this clear. The Plural Voting Bill is a very good thing from the platform point of view, but I believe I am correct in prophesying that hon. Members will find that the cry for the abolition of plural voting is of more advantage on the platform than the result will be in the polling booths. It is a good platform point, just as hon. Gentlemen opposite used with great ability the cry of the food taxes on the platform. But I doubt if food taxes would really have made much difference, though it was a real good point to rub in as they generally did; so while hon. Gentlemen make the point against plural voting on the platform they are quite prepared to use the Irish plural voters of this House as long as they can.
We are going to reduce their numbers.
I have just dealt with that point. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education made the same point this afternoon, but, like the hon. Member for Pontefract, he also has not read the Home Rule Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said they were going to reduce the Nationalist vote by the Home Rule Bill. I have submitted you are doing nothing of the sort, and that it is perfectly possible to have all the Irish Members here until 1916. You are going to use them all this Session. The right hon. Gentleman purses up his brow, but I say that it is quite possible under the provisions of the Home Rule Bill that we shall have the Irish plural voters here in 1916. If the right hon. Gentleman says he is going to alter that, he is in error. You are going to get a lot out of the Irish plural voters before you let them go. It is quite right from the point of view of hon. Gentlemen opposite. You want them here from the party point of view. I oppose this Bill purely and simply from the party point of view. I have said that before. Do you think that the abolition of plural voting will help you so much? There are more extraordinary statements made upon this plural voting than on any other question. I heard it said that 80 per cent, of the plural voters in the country vote for us. I do not know where hon. Members get those figures. I will give the result of my researches as far as they go and as far as I am prepared to make a definite statement. From watching for nearly three years everything in connection with the subject of plural voting and examining every statement written or spoken that has come under my notice, I believe I am right in saying that of the plural voters, taking the right hon. Gentleman's figures, something under 60 per cent, vote for us and something over 40 per cent, for the party opposite.
How many vote for the Labour party?
You are all one party, so that there would only be point in that interruption if hon. Members on the Labour Benches did not vote in the Government Lobby. You cannot get away from these facts. It is not half and half I admit. I cannot say myself what are the facts, but I think I am fairly right in saying that the gain to us is something under 60 per cent. Therefore this will not be such a good point in the polling booth as hon. Members have been making it on the platform. Hon. Members opposite have expressed surprise and they cannot see the difference between doing away with the plural voter on a Referendum and having a General Election without the plural voter. The Leader of the Opposition made an offer to the Prime Minister that he would be prepared to do without the advantage of the plural voter on a Referendum, if the Government would take the Referendum on Home Rule. The right hon. Gentleman's reply was, "Will you have a General Election without the plural voter?" but the thing is entirely different. I notice the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) smiles at that argument, and I am glad of it, because that will induce me to rub it in.
It is an absolutely and an entirely different thing, as the hon. Member will be the first to admit when I point out that in a Referendum you would have one man one vote, and one vote one value all over the country. Would you get that in a General Election. Why, the first thing you would get would be eighty-three Members from Ireland returned to this House without an election at all. After a Referendum the numbers would count; but in a General Election those numbers would count in the Lobby, and that is the difference. Consequently, you would start a General Election eighty-three up. You would count heads in the Lobby after a General Election, and you would start with eighty-three as soon as the election began, and they would have the influence that eighty-three votes do have in the Lobby, although they would represent something like 5,000 electors each. Would that be fair? As far as plural voting helps us, that would be something like a counter. You seem to say, "We will go into this question with all the Irish Members to help us, and you give up plural voting, so that it will be worse against you still" I should like the President of the Board of Education to deal with that point. The two things are entirely different, and that is why they are not fair to us. We want one man one vote, and a Referendum.
I admit the power of the hon. Member's argument, but he appears to forget all about the Redistribution scheme.
That would be all right if you gave us Redistribution before using the Irish Members to rob the Welsh Church. [An Hon. MEMBER: "No!"] Does the hon. Member deny that the Irish plural voters was used to pass the Welsh Church Bill? The hon. Member is not a bit shocked at that, and that is why this question has got down to a party question. As long as you have all this support, you have something which we cannot pretend to equal by our plural voters.
But you want to keep this system on.
I want to redistribute them.
The last Conservative Government promised to bring forward a Redistribution scheme, and they never did it, and do not propose it even now. Therefore the hon. and gallant Gentleman wants to perpetuate this evil.
The hon. Member is a little bit out in his history. If he studies Mr. Gerald Balfour's memorandum, he will find that a Redistribution scheme came to grief through the rulings of the Chair. The Resolutions were brought in, and as a matter of fact the Tory party did eventually bring in a Redistribution scheme, and it came to grief in November, 1905, because it was ruled that it would have to be put in six separate resolutions in a Parliament which, from our point of view, had got a little bit demoralised. Therefore I am more correct in my history than the hon. Member who interrupted me. The real anomaly here is the Irish over-representation. If you were to redistribute that on a popular basis, you would bring from Ireland seats which we do not even fight into England, where we might win the lot, and all you have to advocate is fair play between man and man, and that an Englishman should have the same power in this House as now.
Hon Members opposite are content to sit there, because every Irishman has twice the voting power that we have, and this only shows how skin deep your democratic principles are. As long as the Irish Members vote with you, then you like it, and I have for years been kicking against that system. The hon. Member opposite is very fond of saying that on figures the Liberals are rather more hardly treated in England than the Conservatives are. If you can say that what happened in 1910 must necessarily happen in 1914, then you Liberals have nothing to fear by Redistribution, but no one knows better than the hon. Member for North-West Durham that an election in January, 1910, does not always go the same way as an election in December, 1910. We always have this on our side, and it is not sometimes sufficiently appreciated. If your party won the whole of those forty seats taken from Ireland it would not alter your position one iota. They are in your Lobby now, and they would be in your Lobby then. If they were taken from Ireland and put in England, where the Tory party would have a good chance and we won the whole of them, it would count eighty on a division, and if we won half of them it would count forty votes to us. How do I justify saying that we ought to take them? Purely by advocating that Englishmen should have the same chance in this House as Irishmen. There can be nothing more democratic; and there can be nothing stranger than that such a point of view should be fought by hon. Members opposite professing democratic principles. The hon. Member for Pontefract knows that he would fight to the death against the principle that an Englishman should have the same chance in this House as an Irishman.
No.
Oh, yes, you would, until you got your Bills through. That is the real argument against this Bill.
He is as good as a Scotsman, too, in my opinion.
Exactly, but there is no grievance between an Englishman and a Scotsman electorally. Scotland has seventy-two representatives now, and under any scheme of Redistribution should have seventy-one. Wales also would be exactly where she is, and have thirty. There is only one anomaly in this House, and that is the anomaly which gives such enormous power over the fortunes of the Government to the Irish party. That fact cannot be rubbed in too often, because it has very little effect on right hon. Gentlemen. When they come here and say: "We want equality, one vote, one value," they mean that they only want it when they have got through a Bill which has not really got the consent of the country. They only want it when they have got their Bills through. They and the whole of their party are really sham democrats. There was one point made by the hon. Member for Hoxton (Dr. Addison), who said that by passing this Bill we should get nearer to one man, one vote. It is perfectly obvious that if we pass this Bill we shall get further away than ever from one man one vote, because you are taking away the sole compensating advantage the Tory party gain under this system. If we are going to deal with these franchise questions let us deal with them all at once; do not let us pick and choose. The right hon. Gentleman, I admit, has said, "Pass this Bill and you shall have Redistribution." I think that he is sincere about that, but will he, on this Bill, practically sign a cheque to say that with this Bill goes Redistribution? He knows that he cannot guarantee it. He might, to use a Stock Exchange term, be caught short. He might find that he could not carry Redistribution. We should then be left in the parlous state of having these Irish Gentlemen here and not even having the plural voter. Do not pick and choose things that will suit your party purposes; put them all right. You would find, if you were prepared really to put the machine right before dealing with, these large Bills that the House would be ready to meet you, and, if you like to have the Referendum on Home Rule, I believe that this party would meet you again, but they will never give up ceasing to oppose the Plural Voting Bill and allow you all the benefit you get from the Irish over-representation.
I have listened with very great interest to the views of the hon. Member for the Honiton Division, but at the same time, after one has listened to him on several occasions, one finds that in all his speeches he brings in something about King Charles's head. He is beset with one idea only in the whole of his schemes for Redistribution. He has some time or other crossed over from Holyhead and had a very bad crossing. It has upset him with regard to the Emerald Isle, and, whenever he gets up on this question, he cannot see anything except a grievance with regard to the representation of the Irish people. He asks us to agree to a scheme, which I dare say his leaders might be prepared to accept, that we should throw away the whole of our political struggles for years and years, and sacrifice measures which have been agitating the country for a long time. Twenty-one years ago I voted in this House for a Home Rule measure. It passed this House after a discussion lasting some eighty-two days. Then I saw it go across to another place, and in four days that measure was killed. We have been agitating against all the difficulties of the representative system and all these years we have had to fight for both the Irish and the Welsh Bills, and it has been necessary to appeal to the country to get their consent to the Parliament Act before we could see the possibility of the will of the masses of the people of this country being carried into legislation. We have for three successive years had to discuss the Irish measure. We have now sent it for the last time from this place for the consideration of the Noble Lords. We have had to do the same in connection with the Welsh Bill, and this is the second occasion on which the Plural Voting Bill has been before this House. Are we going on for ever in this way?
The hon. Member asks us to put on one side the Parliament Act, and to do away with our three years' long struggle on Home Rule and on the Welsh Bill, and he wants us to take away from the Irish people at this particular crisis their representative power and nullify them so that we may keep them in what he calls the "Union," but what we call the "Disunion." We do propose to reduce the representation of Ireland in our Home Rule measure. We reduce it from 103 down to 42. Surely he is satisfied with that. We have gone so far out of our way as to give an undue proportion of political power to that portion of Ireland that would be most likely to send representatives to support the hon. Member. We have here to deal with England, Scotland, and Wales, and we want to know what hon. Members propose to do. The hon. Member says that he wants to get rid of Kilkenny, but my people in Dartford want my vote to be equal to the vote of the hon. Member for Canterbury. They are both in the county of Kent. We in Dartford have 24,000 electors, and we believe we are entitled to more political power in this House. I want the hon. Member for Honiton to face the question on these lines. I am pleased with one statement he made. We, this afternoon and on previous occasions during these Debates, have been charged with having one object, the robbing of the political power from hon. and right hon. Members, opposite. It has been said—ridiculously, I think—that we are going to take the whole of the benefit that may accrue from the passing of the Plural Voting Bill. I agree with the hon. Member for Honiton, we shall get some advantage, but I do not believe we shall get as much advantage as some people seem to think. The electorate of the country are entitled to have fair representation and a fair use of political power. I would support this measure even if, as a partisan, I was not going to get any advantage from it. I advocate it on purely just lines.
I hold that the time has gone by for having plural voting under the conditions which now obtain in this country. They are as much out of date as the old system. which prevailed before the extension of the franchise in 1832. We have shifted our grounds since then. It is no use quoting what John Stuart Mill said or what Richard Cobden did. Since then two Reform Bills have been passed. I know Richard Cobden created freeholds for voting purposes. If my memory serves me right, John Bright did not hold such strong views as Richard Cobden, but still he, too, was strongly in favour of the extension of the franchise. What Cobden did he did in order that more people might get political power into their hands. To-day we have a much more popular suffrage so far as the male population is concerned, and if it were put on a better system by the abolition of the lodger qualification, the suffrage would be extended very much more than now. I have listened to the whole of this Debate this afternoon, and I would like to point out we have not heard very much as to what the Bill will really do. I admit it will affect the boroughs, and I am in favour of the measure for that reason. It will take away a privilege which few working men have been able to enjoy. In future a voter under this Bill who possesses a borough as well as a county qualification will have to select one or the other. He will be unable to exercise both. I was most interested in the speeches of the hon. Member for Norwood (Sir Harry Samuel) and of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). They were both thinking of the effect of the Bill on the City and wondering which would gain the votes. It was, in fact, a glorious struggle which this House had the opportunity of witnessing. The hon. Member for Norwood said he wanted City people who lived in Norwood to exercise their vote in that constituency. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, on the other hand, desires them to vote in the City, and that is the sort of struggle which will go on all over the country if this Bill passes.
Many other arguments have been put forward, some of them extremely foreign to the Debate. We have had speeches referring to the question of proportional representation by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University, and also by the hon. Member for the Enfield Division. The two hon. Members were at variance with one another in their views, and both were at variance with the views of the House generally. The only thing they believe in is that you must have proportional representation in order to get an accurate expression of opinion from the electorate of the country. "We have been chided for only dealing piecemeal with this great question of electoral reform, but when we have tried to deal with it generally we have had great difficulties put in our way. It is not, therefore, much better that we should deal with it piecemeal rather than wait and keep in existence all the grievances without any attempt whatsoever to remedy them. Early in the Session, the hon. Member for North Bucks brought in his little Bill amending the election period. We were told at once we were not facing the question, but if the measure is got through, as I hope it may be in a week or two, it will effect one desirable Amendment. Here we have another measure dealing with plural voting, and if hon. Members are keen about registration, I suggest they might bring in a short measure to amend the registration laws on the same lines as one introduced by some of the London Members many years ago, altering but one word in the registration laws, and substituting "three" months for "twelve" months as the registration period. If hon. Members are very keen on reform they can easily secure that change, and then, in this Session, we shall have obtained three very considerable improvements in our registration laws.
What is the argument against this Bill? The President of the Board of Education and other representatives of the Govern- ment have told hon. Members opposite they can have a Redistribution Bill if they like. There is plenty of time to pass it between now and the next General Election under the Five Years Duration of Parliament Act. We have much more time than they had in 1884–5. I remember very well it was not until towards the end of 1884 that there was anything like decisive action with regard to the question of Redistribution after the passing of the Franchise Act of that year. You have plenty of time now. Let this Bill pass by arrangement, set up your Boundary Commission, have your register made up for next year, have it ante-dated as was done in 1885, and you can have your election without the plural voter and with a Redistribution scheme which I hope will be on better lines than the one introduced by the late Tory Government, which, in my opinion, was nothing like drastic enough. That gets rid of that argument. Then I come to the other argument. First you are to have one man one vote, and one value, but, against that, you have the argument that the man who pays twice shall vote twice. You cannot have it both ways. Many hon. Members opposite have said that they are prepared to defend the plural voter, and the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Sir William Bull) told us that he was in favour of extending it. If hon. Members think the plural vote ought to be extended, whether on the lines of Belgium or any other lines, let one of them draft a measure embodying in it their principles of extension, let it be introduced into this House and printed, and then let us put it before the country. We, on these benches, shall be delighted to test the feeling of the country, whether or not it wants to extend plural voting. Do not keep on talking about the educational franchise and saying that you believe a man who pays twice ought to vote twice, but have the courage of your convictions and put your views into a Bill. Then we shall have a chance of considering it, and be able to discuss it in the country and in the Press. You would encounter difficulties the moment you began to frame your measure, for at the present moment you have nothing like a man paying twice and voting twice.
The present system is as full of anomalies as it possibly can be. Why should commercial men inside the City of London be able to reside anywhere within twenty-five miles of the city and yet have the right of using their plural votes, while a man in Holborn, who has just as big commercial interests, or a man in East Finsbury, should not be able to do so? Why do you not ask for the removal of the seven-mile limit with regard to the men in London, Birmingham, and elsewhere, who have not the plural vote? Why do not you be consistent and abolish the twenty-five miles limit for the city and the seven-mile limit for the other boroughs! That is what you will have to deal with when you draft your new measure. Why do you not let a man vote twice, or even seven times in Birmingham in the seven divisions? A man could vote three times for three boroughs within the neighbourhood of this House—Westminster, St. George's, Hanover Square, and the Strand. He could give three votes in respect of three qualifications for those three constituencies. Yet the man, however large his interest may be, in Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, or any of the other great cities, can only give one vote because he is within the borough. If a man pays twice, three times, or four times, in each case give him qualification because he pays. That is the basis upon which you would put the matter. You ought to be logical and consistent and carry out your principles. It is said that we are going to take away some 500,000 votes. I agree with the hon. Member for the Honiton Division (Major Morrison-Bell) that we shall get some advantage out of it, but I do not think the advantage we shall get is anything like so large as some people think. I am in favour of justice being done in connection with this matter, whatever the result of the election may be.
Take a constituency with 2,000 nonresident pluralists and 2,000 residents with votes elsewhere. Take a place like Dart-ford, with 283 people in Greenwich and 806 in Woolwich, making 1,089 who do not come in to Dartford except to vote. Where is their locality? They live all over the country and have freehold qualifications. We set up in Woolwich and Greenwich polling places for the freeholders, so that they do not have to come into the borough itself. You have eleven vicars in Greenwich who have freeholders' votes in the Dartford Division, who get county votes for their benefices. Is it an injustice to the Nonconformists, and should they not be entitled to do the same thing? In Woolwich four of these voters have such keen local interests that they live in Scotland, one lives in Ireland, one in Wales, and one in Berwick-on-Tweed. The outvoters for the Dartford Division live in 150 different constituencies. Consider the local interest they must take in the life and well-being of the people inside that Division! No doubt it is enthusiastic. Another one lives in Jersey, and, better still, one of these locally interested persons, lives in France. I have given these examples of what plural voting means, and I am not going to weary the House with a further statement of the case. You have only two positions to take up; either you must stand on "one man one vote," or else you must take the position that the man who pays twice or three times to a locality should have the right to the vote. If that is the basis on which you are going to put the matter, be logical and bring forward your measure to give those men the right to vote, but do not oppose our measure which will bring about greater consistency than we have at the present time. The Bill is not all that I desire, but I have been in the House long enough to know that it is wise to take the measure you can get, and to go step by step in the direction you desire to go. I wish to see the residential suffrage with a three months' qualification, so that we shall not have people of whom we have heard to-day, who moved in August two years ago and are just coming upon the register. Because this measure is a step in the right direction, I most heartily support it, and I beg the Government to push on with it with all the power that they can command.
The hon. Member who has just sat down, referred, in the course of his observations, to the piecemeal character of this Bill. It is because of its piecemeal character that you find such a large measure of opposition to it from this side of the House. The hon. Member also referred to other matters which require immediate redress. He referred to the registration laws, and said we could have a simple Bill to amend them. We know there is no controversy on that subject in this House, and one of our reasons for objecting to this Bill is that it does not redress those matters which require it. The President of the Board of Education spoke of mobility as one of the reasons for pressing forward the drastic change which this Bill effects. There is another form of mobility in this country that requires as much immediate attention as that caused by the mobility due to more rapid communication—that is, the question of the mobility of labour. Hundreds of thousands of voters, the best of the working classes of this country, are being disfranchised at the present moment owing to the economic and industrial system by which men are moved from place to place, and, as a result of our anomalous registration law, are prevented from exercising their vote. In these circumstances it is wrong, unfair and unjust, when dealing with a Bill of this character, that those grievances should not be simultaneously redressed. My opposition to this Bill emanates not only from its defect in not redressing these anomalies, but it arises largely from the fact that I see in this Bill a continuation of the policy of the Government tinder which they have been carrying on a campaign which has had the effect of alienating more and more the creative forces and the inherited traditions which have introduced an element of stability during many years into our Parliamentary system.
The Bill contains an inherent fault that is common to all (Government measures, that it is purely destructive, and constructive in no form or manner. It enfranchises no one. It does not mitigate one of the grievances of the working classes. It merely seeks for party advantage, by the admission of the Government, to eliminate the representation in this House of commerce and of education by eliminating the representation that the City of London and the universities have enjoyed for so many years. The Bill merely seeks to stereotype the idea that democracy is really a question of counting so many noses. I favour the fullest extension of representation. What we have to secure is an adequate representation of all classes in this country. I supported the Trade Union Bill, notwithstanding many details to which I objected, mainly on the ground that I thought it was to the advantage of the State that we should have a party in this House representing the needs and aspirations of organised labour. In the same way it is not less important that we should get Members returned to this House representing the commerce, the education, and the learning of the country. It seems to me all nonsense to think that the caretakers or the porters in the City of London can adequately represent the gigantic forces, and the great commercial centre, the greatest almost that the world has ever known. I do not believe that individual brokers in Wimbledon or Mayfair can, by the exercise of their votes, represent in a corporate capacity the position that London occupies in the commerce of the world. It is not true, and I believe the Government know it is not true. You may hold that you do not believe in class representation in this House, but it would be difficult to argue the case from that point of view, in view of the fact that you have the trade union and the Labour party representing labour in this country. You may argue the case that labour as labour should be represented in the House, but that capital as capital shall find no representation. That is a perfectly legitimate attitude to hold, although a very unwise one.
I am frankly afraid, as a social reformer, that the result of piling burden after burden on the classes of the country that represent commerce, and at the same time removing their privileges, will result in alienating them from political work, while in no way decreasing their power for mischief if they wish to exercise it. If you merely wish to annoy the capitalists, or the landlord class in the supposed interests of the working classes, you will make it increasingly difficult for these classes to co-operate with you for the welfare of the country. I do not think anyone who has known and seen what is going on abroad, and who has followed the development of France and America, will deny that the elimination of these very classes, who correspond to our plural voter from the work of the State has proved a great weakness to the State, and has added enormously to the expenditure and extravagance of the nation. The reason is very obvious. You do not destroy the power of money by eliminating the opportunity of working for the State. All you do is to ensure that the power shall be secretly used where it has been used hitherto in a constitutional manner. So, too, I think you are rendering no service to education by removing from it the privileges that it has been enjoying. A Government that is really in earnest in the cause of democracy would rather increase than decrease the many and important classes of representation which should be introduced into this House. A Government that realised and recognised that the first and last essential to the success of democracy is education would in my opinion not deprive the graduates of the old universities of their votes, but on the contrary they would extend the vote to those who had passed through schools and technical colleges, or who had derived benefit from secondary education. You should try to make education if possible a test and a real test, rather than do away with it entirely.
There are certain superstitions in this House against what are known as fancy franchises. This superstition dates back to the time when the franchise of this country was very restricted, and when the power of the democracy was curbed, and was not as great as it is at present. If we are going to get adult suffrage, as I hope we are at no distant date, that will be the moment for us to revise our decisions in respect of fancy franchises unless we wish to allow the survival or the domination of those least fit to rule. We must secure in some way that the capacity, the zeal, and the success in life of our educational scheme of those classes shall politically prevail, or at least that they should equalise the worst passions of the least educated in this country. If the Government were far-seeing, and were really -constructively disposed, they would turn this political vote into a political reward for the best representatives of all classes. Out of the nineteen franchises which exist in this country this is the only one which has been selected for destruction and possesses a certain element of value in it. No attempt has been made to deal with the anomalies that exist by which a million voters among the working classes are disfranchised. It does not remove the penalty of disfranchisement which attaches to those who have the enterprise to move from town to town to better their employment. The anomalies that exist under our electoral system affect twice as many people as would be affected by the abolition of the plural vote. The last question I should like to address to the Government is this: Why does not the Government deal with these anomalies'? Is it because they believe they can gain no advantage from having these million voters on the register t I can perceive nothing in this Bill that shows any particular care for the State. I see no attempt to deal with democracy as a whole, and I can see no attempt whatever to deal with electoral anomalies, and I am driven to the conclusion that the Bill is put forward simply for the reason that the Government, dispirited in the House and hard driven in the country, is trying to save as much as it possibly can from the political wreckage that awaits it.
I am sure everybody is agreed that it is very difficult to find any fresh ground at all in discussing this subject, which has been debated at considerable length. I should like, from a non-controversial standpoint, to suggest that it is impossible at any moment to really argue any question of the franchise on hard and fast lines as to what is necessarily right and what is necessarily wrong, and for this reason: The whole history of the franchise, in this or any other country, shows that the question is not what is finally right or wrong. The whole question is a progressive one. The question really, I think, is how at any given moment you can get a representative Chamber which best reflects the considered will of the people of the country at that time. I suppose everybody will agree, even my hon. Friend the Member for the City of London, who made an admirable contribution to the Debate not long ago; that the eventual ideal of everybody is that every man in a democratic country should have a vote, and that no man should have more electoral power than another. But you cannot begin with that. You have to work gradually up to it, and in the early days of any community you have all power vested in one or two men, simply because the remaining men of the community have not at that period sufficient knowledge, education, stability, and experience to take their share in the government of the country. As the community progresses, you get a larger and larger number of people perpetually coming and taking their part in the electing of the Chamber which is to make their laws.
The main question, to my mind, is the question of balance. If you are to have a House which is to represent the will of the people, and which is to carry on continuously the progress of opinion, you must maintain some sort of balance between interests and classes. I really attach very much importance to some of the arguments which have been used on both sides of the House. Some hon. Members on this side state that interests ought to be represented, and hon. Members on the other side strongly resent that. The hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. David Mason) used these words:—
That was cheered by the Labour Members. But a few days ago we found them voting against the Great Eastern Railway Bill in the interest of what they believed to be the material interests of labour. I do not suppose that one man amongst them objected to that Bill, which was for the purpose of carrying out certain works for the benefit of a district. But they voted against it because they are here to represent certain material interests. I do not think hon. Members of the Labour party can throw stones at those who say that interests ought to be represented. What do you mean by interests, and when do you say a man is really fit to exercise the franchise? The argument used in a former Debate was that no man's interest should be more than his all. A man who is wealthy has interests which might be large, and a poor man's interests might be small, but in both cases the interests were equal, because in each case it was their all. I think there is much in that argument. If a man's all is nothing then I do not think his interest can be said to be very important. By something I do not necessarily mean property. That is where education, experience, and stability come in. I say that a man is fit to exercise the franchise who has sufficient education, experience and stability of character, to know that his all is at stake. In the case of a poor man, his all may be his chance of a day's work. It is as much to him as a large property is to the man who possesses it. He has the experience to know that he must not be led away to risk his chance of a day's work, which to him is all-important. As long as he has got that he has got something, and that should be taken into consideration. But you have got to observe the balance, and my main objection to this Bill is that you are taking away one anomaly alone out of many, all of which you admit. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke at the opening of this Debate admitted, in so many words, that this was a bad Bill, that it was not the Bill they would have liked to introduce, but he said they could not get a good Bill through the House, and therefore they were introducing a bad Bill. I do not think that was a good, defence, but it was as good as he was able to make on this particular Bill. The argument used in defence of that is one of general force, namely, you must proceed piecemeal, and that there is no reason why, if you cannot do all you would like to do, you should not do one thing, and do the others afterwards. On perfectly general grounds I admit that that is a good argument, but it falls entirely to the ground here.
On the question of the franchise the question is one of balance, and if you get rid of all anomalies, then you are doing the right thing. But if you do away with one anomaly only, you may do a great deal more harm than good, although you may redress something which is not fair as between man and man. It is not a question, of what is fair between man and man, but a question of keeping the balance throughout the whole community. I say that you are doing more harm than good by destroying the balance, although you may get some degree of fairness as between; man and man. That is the only answer I can find to this Bill, and that is why I say you are upsetting the balance. I come back to the question of Redistribution. If you take, on the one hand, the plural voting anomaly, and, on the other hand, the gross inequality in the different constituencies, there is, to some extent, a balance. And for this reason: Plural voters mostly exist, and naturally exist, in those parts, of the country where population has most radically increased, where you have great industrial interests, where people work in a large town and live outside the town. There you always have a large accession of buildings, and a common class of plural voter, who has not been referred to, is found among the working classes in these places. I know one town alone with something like a thousand plural voters of this particular class who have saved a little money and put their money into a pair of houses which they have built. They live in one and let the other. They get a vote in the borough for the house in which they live and they get a vote in the county division for the house which they let. That is not altogether a bad class of voter. That is the class of voter to which an additional influence is given, in a great industrial community. At the other end you have, through the lapse of time, a great disproportion in the different constituencies that gives an extra voting power to those constituencies where there is the least progressive and industrial population. I do not say there is a perfect balance, but I do say that the general effect of both two anomalies is to some extent to balance one another. If you are going to deal with one of those anomalies you must deal with the other also, otherwise you destroy the balance.
The right hon. Gentleman has said that he is perfectly willing to have Redistribution, and he makes the offer which has been referred to by the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. King) and other speakers. If we on this side of the House desire Redistribution, then we can do so by merely making an agreement with the Government—I think the words used were that the Government were prepared to enter into a treaty to discuss any reasonable proposal to secure a fair distribution of seats. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman had not really considered the situation when he made that offer, because from speeches made over and over again in this House he knows perfectly well that the principal source of inequality is the over representation of Ireland, and that the Government at this moment are about to introduce a Bill which is going to alter, completely the present representation of Ireland. We do not know where we stand. How is it possible to consider a Redistribution Bill in which Ireland would be principally concerned, and arrive at some new scheme of fair Redistribution, when it is absolutely impossible in the present condition of things that any Redistribution Bill will include Ireland at all, because we do now know where we stand? It seems to me that the offer is not an offer, because the conditions are not such that make it practicable to go into the question, as Redistribution is impossible until the Home Rule question is settled and we know where we stand in regard to the present basis of Irish representation. We do not know where we stand at present. The Government say that they are going to introduce an amending Bill merely dealing with the present representation of Ireland in the present Parliament, and actually, when the present representation of Ireland is not settled, hon. Gentlemen opposite think that we should be able to accept or refuse an offer of a Commission which is to consider the question of Redistribution. Until the question of the present Irish representation in this House is to be settled, it is absolutely impossible that any Redistribution Bill can be considered. Therefore,, in those circumstances, on the highest grounds, apart from any party question, it Is wrong, in the public interests, and in the interests of maintaining the balance of the franchise, to deal with this particular inequality while leaving the other and much graver inequality unredressed.
The very words which the right hon. Gentleman used were, "No juryman should have two votes." If the plural voter in England has two votes that is wrong. But that is exactly the proportion of electoral power which an Irishman has as against an Englishman. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman desires to be fair. Would he really maintain that it would be wrong for one English juryman to have two votes and quite right for one Irish juryman to have two votes? No such proposition can be maintained. You have again the question of balance. The fact that an Englishman has a plural vote and has two votes may, to some extent, balance the fact of these Irish voters having two votes also. If you are going to put one of those anomalies right, you must put both right. Otherwise you may make the position very much worse, instead of better, than it was before, not from the point of view of man and man but from the point of view of the general representation of the whole electorate in this House. It is said that it would be an advantage to the poor man to do away with the plural voter, and apparently it may be so in one sense. But it introduces another complication. I suppose that our electoral system is already as complicated as it possibly could be. One of the things of which we all complain, and with very good reason, is that the question of electoral power does not only depend upon the opinion of the people who ought to have votes, but it depends upon the skill of the election agents and whom they can get upon the register, and, when they have got them upon the register, how they can bring them to the polls. Obviously, every complication which you introduce into our electoral system decreases the direct power of the voter and increases the indirect power of the election agent. Here you have introduced another serious complication which would probably be very dear to the election agent. I cannot imagine anything which would better please a clever election agent who has a long list of plural voters. He will write to the voters in the different constituencies among which he has to parcel out these votes and decide that "A" is to vote in one constituency and "B" in another, and so on, and the power of the election agent will thus be enormously increased by this Bill. This Bill, therefore, increases the power of money.
It is all a matter of money—this organisation. One of the matters of which hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side are perpetually complaining is the increasing expenses of elections, which are thrown upon candidates. Surely the Government should bear that in mind, and in altering the franchise it should be their object to simplify it and not make it more complicated, and so increase the cost that is thrown upon both the voters themselves and those who seek to represent them. The whole position which the Government take up is indefensible from the broad point of view. I do not want to throw stones at the Government, but no one pays any attention to its declaration that its objects in this Bill are most disinterested. Everybody knows that the Government has picked out this particular anomaly, because it is the one the existence of which is most injurious to the interests of the Government. This is not the only occasion on which it has done that. It did exactly the same in regard to the Parlament Act itself, under which this Bill is brought in. It is always a question of reform. This is a question of the reform of the franchise. The whole franchise obviously requires reform, and there are much more important matters than this. Surely the disfranchisement of our soldiers, sailors, and fishermen is very much more serious and important, and a much more serious draw-back to getting the true opinion of the electorate. Surely the men who are ready to fight for this country, and the fishermen who run the risks of their calling, are not those whose opinion we are least ready to see reflected in this House; and I submit that it is far more important that these men should be able to return representatives here than it is that the anomaly of the plural vote should be removed at this moment. I am perfectly willing to accept the position put to me by the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. King), when I said that I did not think that the plural vote was necessarily a permanent thing in our electoral system. I do not think it is. It is not merely a question whether the plural vote is necessary, but whether at this moment it can safely be abolished— not being part of a general scheme of reform—without destroying the electoral balance. I say that it cannot be safely taken away under the present proposal of the Government. This is not the time to do it. The other grievances of the soldiers, sailors and fishermen are greater grievances.
It is a question of the reform of the franchise, but the Government pick out the one item of it which is of benefit to their particular party, and they leave all the rest untouched. It was exactly the same with the Parliament Act. There was the question of the reform of the whole Constitution, yet they picked out the one item, which was of particular importance to them, and placed it upon the Statute Book. All the other great and important questions were left untouched. I do not think that can possibly have the effect of increasing the confidence of the House and the country in the disinterestedness of the Government. I must say that the Government appear to have forgotten, when they took office, that they were not to represent only political parties, but were to legislate in the interests of the whole nation. If they had remembered that, the country would now be in a very different state, and the prospects in many directions would be very different from what they are now. It is because of their perpetual legislation in party interests, and their forgetting national interests, of which this Bill is merely an exemplification, that the future before this country is so dark, and so uncertain, as we see it to-day. We on this side of the House oppose this Bill, not because we say that there is always to be a plural vote, but because it has not been brought in as a part of the whole question of franchise reform, and has been justified by no argument which has not been most fully answered on this side of the House. I say that this Bill cannot be passed in the national interest, but only in a party interest. We, on this side, are prepared to oppose the Bill, and I do not think that either it, or any other Bill so presented, is likely to fulfil the hopes of the Government in maintaining them in office when they appeal to the country. We have the satisfaction of knowing that the conditions under which this Bill is before us to-day are very different from the conditions in which it was introduced a year ago. The whole attitude of the Government, their whole demeanour, their whole position is such, that while they may have hoped a year ago that plural voting of this kind was going to save them when they appealed to the country, they certainly cannot be under that delusion to-day. We oppose this Bill on national as well as party grounds. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I have addressed to the House the grounds on which we do so. I addressed arguments which I believe are arguments covering the whole ground, and which are not party arguments, for what they are worth. I say this, that we oppose the Bill both on national and on party grounds, and we are quite confident therefore that, whether this Bill passes or not, when the opportunity of the electors comes, whether they have one vote or two, the Government will fail to get a majority and will receive the treatment which they so richly deserve.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down invited the sympathy of the House for the difficulties with which he found himself in urging any new arguments in this Debate. I am quite sure that I am ready to extend that sympathy to him most liberally, sympathy not unmixed with admiration at the effort that he has made out of the meagre and well worn materials at his disposal to infuse some new life into this languid and depressed Debate. The fact is that argument upon this matter is exhausted and debate has been run dry of all novelty and interest, and yet, although this is the fifth time that this short and simple Bill has been the subject of formal debate in this House, we on this side of the House are keenly conscious that twelve months more time must elapse and two more formal Debates must be endured before this Bill becomes part of the Statute law of the land. I cannot help thinking that that fact affords a striking and vivid illustration of the disadvantages under which the voter who represents in the country the opinions we represent in the House has to suffer in relation to the voter who represents the opinions of hon. Members opposite. I think it shows something more. It shows how hard it is for any group of men to realise or to try to remedy an injustice the burden of which they do not feel. The arguments against this Bill may be divided under two heads. There is the argument, of which the hon. and gallant Gentleman's speech was an excellent illustration, that is based on the theory that while there are many electoral inequalities it is unfair and improper to attempt to remedy one without at the same time attempting to remedy them all. The second branch of the argument is this, that plural voting is just in itself.
I propose to say a few words upon each of those two heads. With regard to the first, I think the argument would have more force if it had not been used so frequently that it has been worn until it has become transparent. There has been no Reform Bill brought before this House from 1832 until the present time in connection with which efforts have not been made by hon. Members opposed to the reform to complicate and confuse the issue by attempting to add Redistribution or some other matter. I observe that in the course of these Debates, Mr. John Bright has been twice quoted by hon. Members opposite as an authority for the proposition, that in some way or another, Bills ought not to be accepted unless redistribution was associated with them. I thought it would be interesting in that respect to see what it was that Mr. John Bright really did say in 1866, when the Reform Bill then before the House was being met by precisely the same argument that is advanced against our proposal to-day. This is what he said:— by associating this reform with Redistribution our feet might become entangled and we might fall. No one, with the exception of the hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken (Mr. Pretyman) and the hon. and learned Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave), has ever attempted in the course of these Debates to show what is the connection between this Bill and the Redistribution for which they propose to be so anxious. The hon. and learned Member for Kingston did make an attempt, which I think is deserving of consideration. He said, "After all, the plural vote is in some way a compensation for the inequalities which are found as between constituency and constituency, and enables a man who is a Member pf a large constituency to equalise by means of his plural vote the disadvantages in which he stands in relation to a man who is a Member of a smaller constituency." He illustrated this by an illustration which has formed a very common subject of discussion by hon. Members opposite—the illustration of the man who comes up to town every day and works in the city, and goes home at night to his residence in some place in the suburbs. I cannot help thinking that such an argument shows that hon. Members opposite have completely failed to understand why we say that the present system of plural voting is unjust. We say that it is unjust, not because of the relationship between the voter in a big constituency and the voter in a small constituency, but that as between two voters in the same constituency it gives the man who possesses the plural vote an advantage, and, as we think, an unjust advantage, over his fellow voter.
Let me take the case of my hon. Friend. Let me assume the case of the man who lives in a big urban constituency, but who goes to town. He, as a plural voter, represents, it may be, the case of some 10 per cent. of the constituency in which he resides. The proposition is this: That by giving that 10 per cent. and added vote you are helping to remedy the injustice of the 90 per cent. who still retain one. But let me just see of whom the 90 per cent. is composed. It is not unlikely that in that 90 per cent. you will find a man who is a clerk in the service of the plural voter. The clerk travels the same way, only he goes by an earlier train. He works, it may be, in the same office. He discharges his part of the same "work. He only has one vote. The man for whom he is working has two. I want to know how that is to be justified? It is justified, as I understand it, by the suggestion that the man for whom the clerk works is a man who by his skill, it may be, or by his industry has accumulated property, and by virtue of that possession he is, it is said, entitled to a double stake in the country as against the man who works in his behalf.
He pays rates and taxes in both places; the clerk only pays in one.
I cannot help thinking that the amount of rates and taxes that are paid in a London office are in some way reflected in the salary of the clerk. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Why, that is the very argument that has been used over and over again against excessive rating and taxation! The more rating and the more taxation, the more it is reflected in the salary of the employés! I want to compare the position of the two-men. It is said that the plural voter has a greater stake in the country than the clerk. Why? The plural voter, upon the hypothesis which has been made, is a man who has to some extent been able to secure himself against the inequalities and spite of fortune. He has, it may be, property sufficient to render him secure in any accident. In the struggle of life the clerk has nothing excepting the existence of himself and his wife and of those dependent upon him, who are hanging upon the hazard of the game. I say that as between the two, if you want to select the man who needs most protection, it is the man who has the greatest amount to suffer from the oscillations of trade and other disturbances. There is only one other illustration given of the way in which electoral inequalities can be balanced by the possession of the plural vote. That is the case suggested by the hon. and gallant Member, who has just spoken of some happy industrial community in which it appears that one thousand workmen had been able to acquire both their own houses, and the houses next door. He did not say where this unusual spot is, but I do not doubt for a moment when the hon. and gallant Gentleman says that it is one with which he is familiar, it does exist.
I may say where it is—it will be of some interest to hon. Members opposite—it is Ipswich.
I am very interested indeed to know. I accept what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said, for I had no doubt that he had taken the trouble to acquaint himself with the facts, and that there are one thousand workmen in Ipswich who own both their own houses and the houses next door. If it be the case, I unhesitatingly say that their second vote should be taken away from them, for there is no more reason or justice in saying these men should have two votes each against the one by their fellow workmen, any more than if they had £50 or £100 in the savings bank. But the real argument in this case has been directed to prove that the plural vote is just, and I have attempted to extract from the various speeches—and seeing that some of them have been made four times over, it is not as difficult as it might have otherwise been— what are the arguments in support of the view that the plural vote is just. And I think the following is a summary: First, the plural vote is the appropriate appendage of property; secondly, it is the expression of the trained capacity of the country; thirdly, it is the very basis of our constitutional development; fourthly, the plural vote is compensation for the unpopularity of the plural vote. [An HON. MEMBER: "Where is that?] It will be found at page 1442 of the Report of the last Debate on this subject. The next thing is that it was supported by John Stuart Mill who died nearly fifty years ago, and whose political economy was considered out of date when I was at Oxford; that the plural voters are educated and progressive people; that the plural vote is the reward of virtue, or at least the prize of education; that the better educated people of the country hold the principles of hon. Members opposite; that this country is like a joint-stock company, and that each person should vote according to his shareholding in the concern; that the plural voter will exercise his vote in a more calm and dispassionate manner than the rest of the electorate. I think that contribution is by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London.
Will the hon. and learned Gentleman say where he takes that from?
Oh, yes; I am sorry, indeed, the hon. Baronet should have forgotten his contribution. In column 1501 (OFFICIAL REPORT) of the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill, the hon. Baronet made this statement:—
"There is another way of looking at it, and that is that a person who has a stake in the country is more likely to exercise his vote in a calm and dispassionate way."
That is quite a different statement from what the hon. and learned Member made.
The hon. Baronet must remember that he is urging the possession of a stake in the country to give the man a right to the plural vote, and what I said was that the plural voter will exercise his vote in a more calm and dispassionate manner than the rest of the electorate, and that is an absolutely accurate statement. I cannot help thinking that the hon. Baronet can never have discussed the question of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with the plural voter. Finally—and upon this all hon. Members are in complete agreement—its abolition will injure the electoral prospects of hon. Members opposite. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] That is the very thing you have been urging against us from first to last of the Debate, and it has been echoed and repeated in every speech. It is impossible, of course, to deal in the detail I should desire with each one of these points, but I should like to say a word or two upon the first, which appears to me to be the most serious, and that is that the man who has a stake in the country, measured, as is suggested, by contributions of rates or the possession of property, is the man who has a bigger and a better right to have his voice heard and his influence felt in this House than the man who has no such advantage. Let us bring that in relation to the actual facts. I have said a word or two about the position of the man who works in the city and dwells in the suburbs.
Let me take another, and I quite agree a less popular form of plural voters. I will take one who, it seems to me, finds very little loyal support from hon. Members opposite, except it be by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London and his hon. and gallant supporter, the Member for Hammersmith, who has made four interesting contributions to this Debate. The plural voter to whom I am referring is the man who, by the acquisition of property of the annual value of 40s. if it be freehold, or £50 if it be leasehold, is entitled to a vote in the county where that property stands. Let me see how it is possible to bring such a man as that within the protection of the arguments we have heard so often about the man who has a stake in the locality, who by his labour contributes to the industry, and but of his purse pays for the cost of the district. Such a man as I am referring to need not contribute one single farthing from years end to years end to the local expenses, and he may never have entered the county where his land is to be found except for the purpose of recording his vote. Yet we are told that his stake in the country is comparable to that of some labourer, who from boyhood to old age has worked unremittingly in that district at unremunerative toil, and who has from first to last been bound to devote the whole of his energies to keeping himself and those dependent upon him free from want. It is not surprising that such a plural voter as that requires considerable courage for his defence. It is useless to suggest that this Bill should be confined to remedying such a wrong as that, because the principle that makes that wrong is the principle that underlies the whole question of plural voting, the principle being that property ought not to endow a man in relation to his fellow man with greater electoral rights.
Questions have necessarily arisen in this Debate in connection with what is called the educated vote, and it is impossible even to refer to it without being keenly and painfully conscious that the death of Sir William Anson has left a gap in this House which it will be hard indeed to fill. We, on this side of the House, no less than hon. Members opposite, will long remember his unfailing courtesy and his readiness to place at the disposal of all of us the large resources of his wide and varied knowledge. He undoubtedly lent distinction to this House, and both in his case and in the case of the late senior Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Butcher) it is plain that not only this House but a much wider and larger area are the poorer for their loss, but I deny that the presence of such Members in this House is necessarily and inseparably bound up with university representation. There is nothing in the whole of one's public experience to my mind that is so pathetic as the anxiety with which big, popular electorates like to be represented, or even to be addressed, by any man of distinction. In whatever walk of life a man has justly won a reputation, nowhere will that reputation stand him in better stead than face to face with the largest and the most popular electorate that he can find in this Kingdom, and again and again political history is full of the record of popular electorates in this country who have shown their fidelity to men of great and outstanding distinction in scholarship, and what they regard as public virtue. The idea that the educated and progressive, constrained opinion is represented by the voters who have elected hon. Members opposite is, I venture to say, falsified again and again by events.
The hon. Member for East Birmingham, who spoke in this Debate, made references which I think were just and wise to the growth of social and industrial unrest in this country. There is no doubt the great complicated fabric of our modern society presents in many ways a grand and imposing spectacle, but we all know that the very system by which it has been built up and maintained is being daily challenged by a large and increasing number of thoughtful men who vehemently deny its boasted benefits. No man can look forward to the future of the country without apprehension unless he has perfect trust in the good sense of his fellow countrymen, a good sense which is not conferred by university degree, nor inherited with great estates, nor acquired with the acquisition of wealth. Two dangers, and two dangers alone, in my opinion, confront us. One is that the slow and laboured output of our Parliamentary machine may fail to keep time with the quickening pulse of public opinion, and the other that man may feel that in relation to the State he stands at a disadvantage in relation to his fellow men. I agree that with the first of these dangers this Bill has no concern, and I agree also that it does not offer a complete and entire remedy for the other, but it is, at least, directed to relieve a grievance, real, definite and bitterly resented, and therefore I earnestly commend it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided: Ayes, 320; Noes, 242.
Division No. 123.] AYES. [10.55 p.m. Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Ffrench, Peter Maclean, Donald Acland, Francis Dyke Field, William Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Addison, Dr. Christopher Fiennes. Hon. Eustace Edward MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, S.) Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Fitzgibbon, John Macpherson, James Ian Agnew, Sir George William Flavin, Michael Joseph MacVeagh, Jeremiah Ainsworth, John Stirling France. Gerald Ashburner M'Callum, Sir John M. Alden, Percy Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson M'Curdy, C. A. Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Gelder, Sir W. A. McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) Armitage, Robert Gill, A. H. M'Laren, Hon.F.W.S. (Lines.,Spaiting), Arnold, Sydney Ginnell, L. M'Micking, Major Gilbert Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Gladstone, W. G. C. Manfield, Harry Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Glanville, Harold James Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Marks, Sir George Croydon Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Greig, Colonel J. W. Marshall, Arthur Harold Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Martin, Joseph Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Griffith, Ellis Jones Mason, David M. (Coventry) Barnes, George N. Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) Meagher, Michael Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs) Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Barton, William Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix. J) Beaie, Sir Wiliam Phipson Hackett, John Middlebrobk, William Beauchamp, Sir Edward Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton) Millar, James Duncan Beck, Arthur Cecil Hancock, John George Molloy, Michael Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Molteno, Percy Alport Bethell, Sir J. H. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Money, L. G. Chiozza Black, Arthur W. Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Montagu, Hon. E. S. Boland, John Pius Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Mooney, John J. Booth, Frederick Handel Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Morgan, George Hay Bowerman. Charles W. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Morrell. Philip Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Hayden, John Patrick Morison, Hector Brady, Patrick Joseph Hayward. Evan Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Brocklehurst, W. B. Hemmerde, Edward George Muldoon, John Bryce, J. Annan Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Buckmaster, Sir Stanley 0. Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) Murphy, Martin J. Burns, Rt. Hon. John Henry, Sir Charles Needham, Christopher T. Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Neilson, Francis Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Hewart, Gordon Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Do*catter> Byles, Sir William Pollard Higham, John Sharp Nolan, Joseph Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hinds, John Norman, Sir Henry Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Norton, Captain Cecil William Cawley, Harold T. (Lanes., Heywood) Hodge, John Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Chancellor, Henry George Hogge, James Myles Nuttall, Harry Chappie, Dr. William Allen Holmes, Daniel Turner O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Holt, Richard Durning O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Clancy, John Joseph Hope, John Deans (Haddington) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Clough, William Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Doherty, Philip Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Hughes, Spencer Leigh D'Donnell, Thomas Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) O'Dowd, John Condon, Thomas Joseph John, Edward Thomas Ogden, Fred Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Johnson, W. O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W. Cory, Sir Clifford John Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Cotton, William Francis Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Malley, William Cowan, W. H. Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) O'Neill. Dr. Charles (Armagh, S> Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Crooks, William Jones, Leit (Notts, Rushcliffe) O'Shee, James John Crumley, Patrick Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Sullivan, Timothy Cullinan, John Jones, William S. Glyn-(Stepney) Outhwaite, R. L. Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir j. H. (Kirkcaldy) Jowett, Frederick William Palmer, Godfrey Mark Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Joyce, Michael Parker, James (Halifax) Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) Kellaway, Frederick George Parry, Thomas H. Davies, Sir D. Howell (Bristol, S.) Kelly, Edward Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) Kennedy, Vincent Paul Pearce, William (Limehouse) Dawes, James Arthur Kenyon, Barnet Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. De Forest, Baron King, Joseph Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Devlin, Joseph Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry Philipps, Colonel Ivor (Southampton) Dickinson. Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon,S.Molton) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Dillon, John Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Pirie. Duncan V. Donelan, Captain A. Lardner, James C. R. Pointer, Joseph Doris, William Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Duffy, William J. Lawson, Sir W. (Cumbr'ld, Cockerm'th) Pratt, J. W. Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Leach, Charles Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Levy, Sir Maurice Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Primrose, Hon. Neil James Elverston, Sir Harold Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) Ptingle, William M. R. Esmonde. Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Lundon, Thomas Radtord, George Heynes Essex, Sir Richard Walter Lyell, Charles Henry Raffan, Peter Wilson Esslemont, George Birnie Lynch, Arthur Alfred Raphael, Sir Herbert H. Falconer, James Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shield** Farrell, James Patrick Macdonald. J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Fenwick, Rt. Hop. Charles McGhee, Richard Reddy, Michael Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Redmond, William (Clare, E.) Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) White, Patrick (Meath North) Rendall, Atheistan Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Whitehouse, John Howard Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Sutherland, John E. Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Sutton, John E. Wiles, Thomas Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Wiykie, Alexander Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Tennant, Harold John Williams, John (Glamorgan) Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Williams, Liewelyn (Carmarthen) Robinson, Sidney Thorne, William (West Ham) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Toulmin, Sir George Williamson, Sir Archibald Roche, Augustine (Louth) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) Roe, Sir Thomas Verney, Sir Harry Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Rowlands, James Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Walters, Sir John Tudor Winfrey, Sir Richard Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Walton, Sir Joseph Wing, Thomas Edward Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) Samuel, J. (Stocklon-on-Tees) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Yeo, Alfred William Scanlan, Thomas Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. Young, William (Perthshire, East) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Yoxall, Sir James Henry Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Sheehy, David Watt, Henry Anderson TELLERS FOR THE AYES.Mr. Shortt, Edward Webb, H. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland, Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook Wedgwood, Josiah C. NOES. Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Hills, John Waller Amery, L. C. M. S. Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Hill-Wood, Samuel Archer Shee, Major M. Craik, Sir Henry Hoare, S. J. G. Ashley, Wilfrid W. Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Hohlsr, Gerald Fitzroy Astor, Waldorf Croft, H. P. Hope, Harry (Bute) Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Currie, George W. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Baldwin, Stanley Dairymple, Viscount Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Bailour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, London) Denison-Pender, J. C. Home, E. Banbury, Sir Frederick George Denniss, E. R. B. Houston, Robert Paterson Baring, Major Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) Dixon, C. H. Hume-Williams, William Ellis Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Du Cros, Arthur Philip Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. Barnston, Harry Quke, Henry Edward Ingleby, Holcombe Barrie, H. T. Duncannon, Viscount Jackson, Sir John Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Gloucester, E.) Du Pre, W. Baring Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Jessel, Captain H. M. Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Joynson-Hicks, William Beckett, Hon. Gervase Faber, Captain W. V. (Hants, W.) Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Falle, Bertram Godfray Kerry, Earl of Benn, Arthur Hamilton (Greenwich) Fell, Arthur Keswick, Henry Bennett-Goldney, Francis Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Kyffin-Taylor, G. Beresford, Lord Charles Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. Lane-Fox, G. R. Bigland, Alfred Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue Larmor, Sir J. Bird, Alfred Fleming, Valentine Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Blair, Reginald Fletcher, John Samuel Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue Forster, Henry William Lewisham, V'scount Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Foster, Philip Staveley Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.) Bowden, G. R. Harland Ganzoni, Francis John C. Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Gardner, Ernest Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Boyton, James Gastrell. Major W. Houghton Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R. Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Gibbs, George Abraham Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Bridgeman, William Clive Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Bull, Sir William James Goldman, C. S. Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. Burdett-Coutts, W. Goldsmith Frank MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Burgoyne, Alan Hughes Goulding, Edward Alfred Mackinder, Halford J. Burn, Colonel C. R. Grant, J. A. M'Calmont, Major Robert C. A Butcher, John George Gretton, John M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Campion, W. R. Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) Magnus, Sir Philip Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Guinness, Hon.W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds) Malcolm, Ian Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Cassel. Felix Haddock, George Bahr Mason, James F. (Windsor) Castlereagh, Viscount Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Cator, John Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) Middlemore, John Throgmorton Cautley, Henry Strother Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Cave, George Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Harris, Henry Percy Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Mount, William Arthur Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Helmsley. Viscount Neville, Reginald J. N. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.,E.) Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Newman, John R. P. Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) Newton, Harry Kottingham Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Nicholson. William G. (Petersfield) Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Hewins, William Albert Sameul Nield, Herbert Courthope, George Loyd Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Norton-Griffiths, John Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Midi Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G A. Sanders, Robert Arthur Valentia, Viscount Paget, Almeric Hugh Sanderson, Lancelot Walker, Colonel William Hall Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Sandys, G. J. Walrond, Hon. Lionel Parkes, Ebenezer Sassoon, Sir Philip Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) ,Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F. Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) Watson, Hon. W. Perkins, Walter F. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Weston, Colonel J. W. Poie-Carew, Sir R. Sharman-Crawford, Colonel R. G. Wheler, Granville C. H. Pollock, Ernest Murray Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'pool, Walton) White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport) Pretyman, Ernest George Smith, Harold (Warrington) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Spear, Sir John Ward Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud Quilter, Sir William Eley C. Stanier, Beville Wills, Sir Gilbert Randies, Sir John S. Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk) Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) Ratcliff, R. F. Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) Wilson, Captain Leslie 0. (Reading) Rawlinson. John Frederick Peel Starkey, John Ralph Wilson, Maj.Sir M.(Bethnal Green,S.W.) Rawson, Colonel Richard H. Steel-Maitland, A. 0. Winterton. Earl Rees, Sir J. D. Stewart, Gershom Wolmer, Viscount Remnant, James Farquharson Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Wood, Hon. E. F L. (Yorks, Ripon) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Sykes, Alan John (dies., Knutsford) Wood, John (Stalybridge) Rolleston, Sir John Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central) Worthington Evans, L. Ronaldshay, Earl of Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Rothschild, Lionel de Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Royds, Edmund Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) Yate, Colonel C. E. Rutherford, John (Lanes., Darwen) Thynne, Lord Alexander Younger, Sir George Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Tickler, T. G. Salter, Arthur Clavell Tobin, Alfred Aspinall TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) Touche, George Alexander Edmund Talbot and Mr. Pike Pease. Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Tryon, Captain George Clement
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Merchant Shipping (Convention) [Money]
Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of such sums as may be required for contributions from the United Kingdom under any Act of the present Session to make such amendments of the law relating to merchant shipping as are necessary or expedient to give effect to an International Convention for the safety of life at sea, signed in London on 20th January, 1914. (King's recommendation signified.) Tomorrow.—[ Mr. Gulland. ]
Intermediateeducation (Ireland) [Money]
Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of an annual sum to the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to Intermediate Education in Ireland. (King's recommendation signified.) Tomorrow.—[ Mr. Gulland. ]
Foot and Mouth Disease
Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Gulland. ]
May I ask whether the Vice-President of the Irish Department of Agriculture is in a position to give us any more information regarding the report as to foot-and-mouth disease?
I have received the following telegram:—
"All the lot of fifteen cattle in which the suspects are included came from Graham's, Maguiresbridge (CO. Fermanagh), where they were together up to last Tuesday or Wednesday. Seven of them were purchased from Erskine, Brookborough, co. Fermanagh, one from McDouagh, Maguiresbridge, on 9th ult., and brought direct to Graham's, yard. All animals on Erskine's, McDonagh's and Graham's premises have been examined and found healthy. The remaining seven of the fifteen were taken to Graham's yard, namely, three from local farms, and four from Ballyconnell Fair, on 16th May. The first three have been traced, two to premises of Clarke, Lisbellaw, and one to an owner whose name has not been reported. All the animals on both premises have been examined and found healthy. Of the four from Ballyconnell Fair, one has been traced to Lunny, of Derrylin, whose stock has been found healthy, and the three others to two persons in Ballyconnell neighbourhood, whose names and addresses are being sought with the assistance of the police. It is to be observed, however, that it is just a month since the Ballyconnell animals were purchased."
It appears to me from that telegram that those animals have been practically traced to their source of origin, and that no trace of disease has been found in any of those. As it stands, three veterinary inspectors, one from the English Board, are unable to say that the disease which affected the four animals at the port of Belfast is foot-and-mouth disease; and on the tracing of the origin of those animals no disease has been found; and I leave it there.
Arising out of the reassuring statement just made by the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Irish Department, I should like to ask the President of the English Board of Agriculture whether he feels at liberty to relax the severe restrictions which have been imposed? An Order has been issued stopping cattle from Belfast and all the northern ports from which there is a large volume of this traffic. The matter is one of vital importance, and I should be glad if the President of the English Board can make some statement now.
Yes. The English Department has not had any chance of considering the fuller information which has come to-night by telegram, but a conference will be held to-morrow morning of my officers and the right hon. Gentleman, and they will take into consideration the position as it stands at the present time. If it is clear, as we hope it is now, from the information that has come to hand, that this disease was not foot-and-mouth disease, and that there is no sign of disease in the contact animals at the source from which these animals were originally brought, of course the English Board has no interest whatever in maintaining any restrictions. It is only fair to say that the Irish officers, who acted with great promptitude throughout, telegraphed on Saturday morning to say that they had themselves, at the other end, as a preliminary measure, put a stop to the flow of animals to this side of the Channel. We acted on that simultaneously with them, and we shall act in the same way in relaxing the restrictions if it is possible, to-morrow morning.
May I ask the Vice-President, now that there has been no foot-and-mouth disease found amongst those cattle detained in Belfast, will he allow them to proceed on their journey to Great Britain?
I would not like to say on the spur of the moment. They are suffering from some disease.
May I ask how this matter was first discovered, and in what way it was supposed to be foot-and-mouth disease when it was not?
It was first discovered when the fifteen animals landed on Belfast quay for county Fermanagh. It was discovered by the supervising officer of the Irish Department, whose duty it is to examine every beast that arrives there. He had suspicions that it was foot-and-mouth disease, and very properly reported it to Dublin, and asked for assistance, which was promptly rendered.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned at Twenty-two minutes after Eleven o'clock.