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Commons Chamber

Volume 63: debated on Monday 22 June 1914

House of Commons

Monday, June 22, 1914

Private Business

Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Leeds Corporation Bill [ Lords ].

London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Bill [ Lords ].

Yorkshire Electric Power Bill [ Lords ].

Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.

Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill.

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill.

Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.

Central London Railway Bill,

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."

I should like to ask a question in reference to these Amendments. They seem to me to be of unusual length. One can understand a protective Clause going in after negotiations, but this seems to be a wholesale insertion of protective Clauses, and it is very unusual. Perhaps there is some explanation of this.

I cannot give any explanation of the merits of the Clauses. They were examined by the officials before they were put down for the consideration of the House.

I object.

Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow (Tuesday).

Kidsgrove Gas Bill,

London Electric Railway Bill,

Mold and Denbigh Junction Railway Bill,

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Bristol Water Bill [ Lords ],

Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.

Butterley Company Bill [ Lords ],

Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Ossett Corporation Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

St. George's Hospital Bill [ Lords ],

Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.

Bristol Corporation (Various Powers) Bill [ Lords ],

Gas Light and Coke Company Bill [ Lords ],

Read a second time, and committed.

Northwich Urban District Council Bill (by Order),

King's Consent signified; Bill read the third time, and passed.

North-Eastern Railway Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill,

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

Lanarkshire Gas Order Confirmation Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill (by Order),

Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.

Local Government Provisional Order (No. 11) Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.

Venereal Diseases (Royal Commission)

Copy presented of First Report of the Commissioners, with Appendix (Minutes of Evidence, 7th November, 1913, to 6th April, 1914) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Metalliferous Mines and Quarries (Royal Commission)

Copy presented of Second Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into and report upon the Health and Safety of Persons employed in Metalliferous Mines and Quarries. Report and Minutes of Evidence. Vols. II. and III. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Shops Act, 1912

Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the county of Cumberland, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, with regard to certain classes of Shops within the urban district of Millom [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

East India

Copy presented of Statement exhibiting the moral and material Progress and Condition of India during the year 1912–13. Forty-ninth number [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 288.]

Copy presented of Return of all Loans raised in India, chargeable on the Revenues of India, outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ending on the 31st March, 1914, etc. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 289.]

National Insurance Act

Copy presented of Order made by the Scottish Insurance Commissioners entitled the National Health Insurance (Sana- torium Benefit) Order (Scotland), 1914, dated 17th June, 1914 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Copy presented of Regulations made by the Irish Insurance Commissioners, dated 11th June, 1914, entitled the National Health Insurance (Claims for Exemption, Married Women) Regulations (Ireland), 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 290.]

Prosecution of Offences Acts, 1879 to 1908

Address for return "showing the working of the Regulations made in 1886 for carrying out the Prosecution of Offences Acts, 1879, 1884, and 1908, with statistics setting forth the number, nature, result, and cost of the proceedings instituted by the Director in accordance with those Regulations from the 1st day of January, 1913, to the 31st day of December, 1913 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 154, of Session 1913)."—[ Mr. Ellis Griffith. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

British Shipping (East Mediterranean)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in the event of war breaking out between Greece and Turkey, what steps he intends taking to protect British shipping in the East Mediterranean from the dangers to which it will be liable from floating, contact, and drifting mines in harbours and straits?

It is impossible to say in advance what steps His Majesty's Government may be able to take to prevent or minimise these dangers. I can only say that we shall exercise what influence we can to prevent war breaking out, and if it does break out to secure that harbours and straits are not closed to merchant shipping.

Piracy on British Steamer "Shui-on."

asked whether in respect to the piracy on board the British steamer "Shui-on" in 1911, the sum of £1,000, which was claimed by His Majesty's Government as compensation for injury to the health of the master, Captain Johnston, has now been paid by the Chinese Government; and, if not, whether His Majesty's Government will take further steps in obtaining a satisfactory settlement of this claim?

I will make inquiry of His Majesty's Minister at Peking, and will inform the hon. Member.

Government of Epirus (Agyrocastro Mussulmans)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has information with regard to 4,000 Mussulmans who are reported to be surrounded in Argyrocastro by the forces of the provisional Government of Epirus; and if he will make representations to the Hellenic Government to use its influence to prevent the perpetration of outrages?

I received such a Report by telegraph from an unofficial source on the 12th instant, but I am not in a position to verify its accuracy. I understand that my informant, who is a United States citizen, is now in Northern Epirus in company with the United States Minister to Greece, who will doubtless make the representations the hon. Member suggests should they appear called for.

Is the hon. Member aware that the Hellenic Government, through the Foreign Secretary, have insulted this country by deliberately telling lie after lie on the situation?

The hon. Member is not entitled to use an expression like that about a friendly Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]

Labourers' Cottages (Rural Districts)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture when he expects to begin the erection of labourers' cottages in rural districts where there is a scarcity of such houses?

The Bill dealing with this question will be introduced shortly, and will, I hope, be passed into law in time to enable the building of cottages to be begun in some districts this winter.

Foot-and-Mouth Disease

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he is aware that there is an embargo on the importation of hay to the island of Jersey from the West Country on the ground of possible infection from foot-and-mouth disease, although there has been no outbreak of the disease in Somerset for two years, and that hay is being imported into Jersey from Denmark; and what action he will take?

The Board have no information with regard to the importation of hay from Denmark into Jersey; otherwise the answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Board are making representations on the subject.

Contagious Diseases of Animals

asked whether any moneys have been allocated by the Board out of their Development Fund Grant towards independent research into contagious diseases of animals on the part of private investigators not in the employment of his Department?

Grants for this purpose have been made annually since 1911 to the Royal Veterinary College, and for similar purposes to the Wye College and to the University College of Wales at Aberystwyth.

Swine Fever

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the request on the part of the National Pig-Breeders' Association, supported by several of the leading medical authorities in the country, for the institution of independent research at Cambridge, either by the university or by the Quick Trustees, in connection with swine fever and other diseases deemed to be caused by an ultramicroscopic and filtrable virus, and for a Grant from the Development Fund to promote such investigation; and, if so, whether the Government propose to comply with such request?

I received a deputation from the National Pig-Breeders' Association on this subject last week. As I stated in the course of my speech in the Debate on the Board's Estimates, I am endeavouring to facilitate arrangements which I hope can be made for independent research work on swine fever concurrent with that conducted by Sir Stewart Stockman, but not superseding it. Whether Cambridge University or some other institution is the best for this purpose is at present engaging the attention of the Board and the Development Commissioners, but no definite announcement can be made at present.

Agricultural Credit Banks

asked whether, in view of the slow progress of the movement for the establishment of agricultural credit banks in England and Wales, the increasing need for their useful operations in connection with small holdings, and the difficulty of deciding upon the system best adapted to British rural conditions, he will consider the advisability of setting up a Departmental Committee to consider and report upon the matter, with terms of reference similar to those of the Departmental Committee upon Agricultural Credit in Ireland, which has recently issued its Report?

The Report of the Departmental Committee upon Agricultural Credit in Ireland deals comprehensively with the subject, and much of it applies equally to England and Wales. The great obstacle to progress in this country is not any difficulty in finding capital or in devising a suitable system of co-operative credit, but the marked disinclination of many of those who would benefit by it to combine for that particular purpose. For these reasons I do not think that there is anything to be gained at present by setting up such a Committee as the hon. Gentleman suggests.

Is it not a fact that this marked disinclination to which the right hon. Gentleman refers is an indication of the difference of the conditions prevailing in England from those prevailing in Ireland?

That is a matter of opinion which may also be due to the different stages of development in co-operative idea in England and Ireland.

Movements of Stock (Scotland)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has had any complaint from Scotland regard- ing the lack of uniformity in the restrictions placed by county authorities on the importation and movements of stock; and, if so, whether he intends to take any steps to secure greater uniformity?

I am aware that inconvenience has been caused by the lack of uniformity in the Regulations made by local authorities and the Board have received some communications from Scotland with reference to it. In answer to the latter part of the question I would refer my hon. Friend to my speech in this House on Tuesday last.

Oxford University (Agricultural Education)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether any steps are being taken to constitute a properly equipped Department of Agriculture at Oxford University, comparable with that existing at Cambridge University, for the more efficient training of prospective landowners and farmers; and whether the Board have made any representations to the former university on this subject?

The School of Rural Economy at Oxford has been from time to time the subject of conferences between representatives of the Board and of the university, and is recognised by the Board in the distribution of their annual Grants for agricultural education. It would not be possible within the limits of an answer to a Parliamentary question to draw a fair comparison between the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge in this respect.

Is it not desirable that Oxford University should be at least as efficient as Cambridge University in this matter?

The hon. Gentleman will observe in my answer that I did not admit Cambridge was superior to Oxford.

Hampton Court Park

asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he has yet been able to have an estimate made of the cost of demolishing the wall alongside the road on the north side of Hampton Court Park and of substituting therefore iron railings?

The estimated cost of substituting a suitable iron railing of simple design for the existing wall on the north side of the Hampton Court Road is £5,200. There are no funds available for this service.

North Atlantic (Movements of Ice)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any portion of the sum of £13,000, the Estimate for the special investigation into movements of ice in the North Atlantic, is to be repaid by those interested in the North Atlantic trade; and whether this sum is likely to be an annual charge?

It is proposed that the British proportion of the cost of the new international service should be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament. The charge will be an annual one.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of putting this charge upon those who are interested in the North Atlantic trade, and who therefore benefit?

Merchant Shipping (Convention Bill)

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what number and what proportion of the total number of British ocean-going ships registered in the United Kingdom will have to be equipped with wireless telegraphy under the provisions of the Merchant Shipping (Convention) Bill; and (2) what number and what proportion of the total number of British ocean-going ships registered in the United Kingdom normally carry fifty persons, forty persons, and thirty persons, respectively?

The number of British foreign-going ships registered in the United Kingdom which normally carry fifty or more persons, and which will, therefore, have to be equipped with wireless telegraphy apparatus, under the provisions of the Merchant Shipping (Convention) Bill, will be about 1,100, with a tonnage of about 4,250,000 tons net, or about one-quarter of the total number and two-fifths of the total tonnage of British foreign-going ships registered in the United Kingdom. I regret that the figures show- ing the number of vessels which normally carry forty persons and thirty persons are not available. The figures given above are exclusive of ships engaged solely in the Home Trade.

Colour Vision Tests

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the tests for colour vision, the examiners open the lanterns in order to make notes; and, if so, whether orders will be given to discontinue the practice, as the introduction of stray light makes the tests unduly difficult for normal-sighted persons?

Effective arrangements have been made to enable the examiners to make their records without the possibility of any stray light from the lantern interfering with the candidates. If my hon. Friend has any information as to difficulty being experienced in the manner indicated by a candidate under examination I shall be glad to make inquiries in the matter if he will supply me with such particulars as will enable me to identify the case.

Post Office

Pensioner EmployéS

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will explain why, although pensioners from public services are ordinarily paid their pensions in advance, such pensioners employed in the Post Office are not paid quarterly in advance or otherwise than by a weekly sum reckoned as part of or in addition to their wages as postal employés; whether many such pensioners desire to be paid their pensions separately, as other pensioners are ordinarily paid, and regard the combination of pension with wages in a weekly payment as a means of cheapening their labour; and whether he is willing to include this matter in the reference to the proposed further Committee of Inquiry on the grievances of postal employés?

The change from quarterly to weekly payment of pensions in the case of men employed in the Post Office was made in 1900, in the interests of the men themselves. The combination of pensions with wages in a weekly payment does not in any way affect the amount of an officer's wages, which are laid down for the class as a whole, without any regard to the fact that some members of it are pensioners. The reference to the Committee of Inquiry which is about to sit will only include matters dealt with by the recent Select Committee, of which this was not one.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that many of these pensioners regard themselves as placed at a disadvantage by getting their pensions postponed to weekly instalments instead of getting them at the beginning of the quarter, and does his answer cover that inequality?

It is quite news to me that the Treasury ever permit payment of pensions in advance. I cannot say that is not the case in individual instances, but it is quite news to me. Apart from that, I may tell the hon. Gentleman that I was constantly pressed, when I was at the Treasury, to see that payment for pensions were made weekly instead of quarterly, as giving much greater convenience to the persons having them.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire whether Army pensions are not regularly paid in advance—I think both Army and Navy pensions—and, if that is so, will he see whether men are put at a disadvantage by getting as the thirteenth instalment in the thirteenth week of the quarter a sum which, if they were merely pensioners, they would get at the beginning of the quarter?

No, because I think that the balance of opinion is vastly in favour of the present system of payment of pensions weekly.

Holt Committee (Recommendations)

asked the Postmaster-General why 2nd February was fixed instead of 1st February as the date when the recommendations of the Holt Committee should come into force; whether this had the effect of preventing certain increases from taking place for another year; and, if so, whether these cases will be specially considered?

In the Committee's Report, which is dated 7th August, 1913, there is a recommendation that the new rates should come into force within a period not exceeding six months. Monday, the 2nd Ferbuary, rather than Sunday, the 1st February, was selected because the bulk of the Post Office staff are on weekly wages payable not from Sunday but from Monday in each week. In the latter part of the question the hon. Member probably has in mind those scale payment sub-postmasters whose ordinary triennial revisions fell due on the 1st February and were carried out on the old scale. In those cases there will be special revisions on 1st August, 1915, and any increases then found to be due under the Holt scale will be dated back a year.

Family Relations Among EmployéS (Birmingham and Londonderry)

asked the Postmaster-General the result of his inquiries into the complaints regarding the violation of Rule No. 177 with respect to the employment of officials under the direct supervision of relatives at the Birmingham Post Office?

I furnished the hon. Member with a full statement of the facts on the 19th instant.

asked the Postmaster-General the number of family relationships existing among the rank and file of the staff employed at the Londonderry post office; and whether, having regard to Staff Rule No. 177, there is any intention of extending the number of such relationships?

I am aware that a number of the staff at Londonderry are related to one another, but I see no ground for taking any special action there. I am assured that the discipline and work of the office are not affected by the relationships.

Watford Overseership

asked the Postmaster-General whether a vacancy for the position of overseer at the Watford office was recently filled by a sorting clerk and telegraphist from the Portsmouth office; whether this officer was fully qualified in all duties necessary to the telegraph section; whether sorting clerks and telegraphists attached to the Watford office have satisfactorily performed not only their own duties but, in addition, long periods of acting duties to fill the vacant duty of overseership; whether the claims and qualifications of these officers were fully considered in making the appointment; and whether it is proposed to offer a reciprocal promotion to the Watford staff as compensation for a lost appointment in their own office?

A vacancy for an overseer at Watford was filled in December last by the promotion of a fully qualified sorting clerk and telegraphist from Portsmouth. The claims of the local sorting clerks and telegraphists were duly considered, but none of them could be regarded as fully qualified for promotion. The officer promoted has, however, now at his own request returned to Portsmouth, and the question of giving the Watford staff a reciprocal promotion does not arise at present.

H.M. Cableship "Monarch."

asked the Postmaster-General whether it has been the usual practice in the past for a Postmaster-General to turn out of their quarters officers and non-commissioned officers of one of His Majesty's cable ships for the benefit of the Postmaster-General's unofficial friends?

As there is only one spare cabin on the "Monarch," it is necessarily and always has been the practice, when more than one guest is on board, to require one or more of the officers to give up their cabins for the time.

Are we to understand that it has been the practice in the past for officers to turn out of their quarters?

St. Kilda Wireless Installation

asked the Postmaster - General whether the St. Kilda wireless installation is at the present moment without the services of an operator; whether those who erected the installation have been compelled to abandon its continuance as a philanthropic effort; whether representations have been made to him to secure its continuance, and what decision he has come to in the matter?

The wireless apparatus at St. Kilda was put up by the proprietors of a daily paper, and was worked by an operator of the Marconi Company, who has now been withdrawn. I understand that before leaving he gave some instruction in the use of the apparatus to one of the residents on the island, and that one wireless message has since been received. The question of the future working of this installation is under consideration.

Telephone Service

asked the Postmaster-General what date the contractor has mentioned for the completion of the work of laying telephone lines in Earlestown, Lancashire?

A date has not been given by the contractor, but the work is practically completed and ready for final test.

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that contracts are given without any date being named for their completion?

I do not recall the particulars of this individual contract at the moment. We have a very great number of contracts, and that is the information I have received. It seems to me to inflict no hardship on the locality.

Royal Navy

Carpenters' Crew Ratings

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the limited number of carpenters' crew ratings advanced to the shipwright rating at the beginning of the financial year, he will consider the lack of opportunity for advancement in these ratings and the possibility of opening up some higher rating for these men, so that they may have better opportunities for advancement in their own branch of the service?

Fifty special advancements of carpenters' crew ratings to shipwright are being made during the current financial year. It is not considered necessary to take any further steps to accelerate the advancement of these ratings.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what opportunities, other than the limited number allowed at the discretion of the Admiralty to transfer to the shipwright rating, these men of the carpenters' crew ratings have of rising to warrant commission ranks?

Is it not a fact that the greater number of carpenters' crew ratings have no opportunity of rising to a higher rating than that of joiner at 22s. 6d. per week?

They may be advanced after examination, at the discretion of the Admiralty.

Admiralty Clerk's Pay (Suicide)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the recent suicide of an assistant clerk in the Admiralty; and, in view of the statement that the deceased could no longer live on his pay, if he will state the weekly amount of that pay, the number of clerks at present employed at a similar rate of remuneration, and whether it is proposed to grant any increase to those clerks?

The assistant clerk was at the time of his decease in receipt of £50 a year, equivalent to 19s. 2d. a week. He was on the usual scale of salary for assistant clerks, namely, £45 a year, rising by £5 annually to £85, and thence by £7 10s, to £150. There are 197 assistant clerks serving at present at the Admiralty on this scale, which is the same as in other Government Departments. The last part of the question should, I think, be put to the representative of the Treasury.

Anglo-Persian Oil Company Contract

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Indian Government has been consulted on the proposed purchase of a controlling share in the Anglo-Persian Oil Company; and, if it has, whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a statement of the views of the Government of India?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In addition to communications that passed between the departments in London, Admiral Slade was placed in full consultation with political officers on the spot, and on his return from Persia he proceeded to Delhi, and conferences took place with officers of the Indian Government appointed by the Viceroy under instructions from the Secretary of State. In reply to the second part of the question, it is not proposed to lay Papers on the subject.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether that portion of the oil-field, which is said to be in Turkish territory, was submitted to the Government of India before the Admiralty came to its conclusion?

asked the Prime Minister whether, in the event of the Money Bill sanctioning the purchase of shares in the Anglo-Persian Oil Company becoming law, the Government of India can be held liable to meet the cost or any part of the cost of a military expedition which in the future may have to be sent to defend the Persian Oil Company's concessions?

My hon. Friend's question is based on an hypothesis, and I am not able to answer it.

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to introduce a Bill to carry ont the Anglo-Persian oil transaction, or by what other means he will obtain the sanction of the House to the Resolution passed in Committee of the Whole House on the 17th instant?

The authority given by the Resolution will be confirmed by a Bill to be introduced in due course, and dealing with the method of providing the necessary funds.

Will there be an opportunity when the Bill is introduced for a discussion in the House on the subject?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Anglo-Persian Oil Company will shortly place a contract for 150 miles of 10-inch steel pipes; and whether, in that case, he will exercise his influence to secure that the tenders will be confined to the British industries which will be taxed to find the capital invested by the Government in the Anglo-Persian Oil Company?

The reply to the first part of the question is that purchases of that nature will no doubt be necessary. To the second part, the Noble Lord has already been informed that it is not proposed to impose restrictions upon this company, to which Government Departments themselves are not subject.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the contract will be placed before the debts of the Burma Oil Company are paid?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, if the contract is placed abroad, the contractors will have to pay as much taxation as our own people if the contract was placed in this country?

The right hon. Gentleman cannot be expected to answer that question off hand.

National Insurance Act

Sanatorium Benefit

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has now any further information regarding sanatorium accommodation in the area of the Carmarthenshire Insurance Committee?

My right hon. Friend is informed that so far as the insurance committee are aware no such statement as that referred to in the hon. Member's previous question has been made. During the past three months twenty-three persons in the area in question were recommended for treatment in sanatoria, and all, except one, who will be admitted this week, and five who refused the treatment, are already receiving that treatment.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has any further information to communicate to the House with regard to the statements made at the recent meeting of the South Manchester guardians, that there was no provision at the Withington Hospital for dealing effectively with the 112 men and forty-one women suffering from consumption, and to a lady guardian's further statement at the same meeting that, as a member of the local insurance committee, she was aware that eighty-eight people applied for sanatorium treatment and that it could only be given to three; and, in view of these statements, will he inform the House what provision has been made in this district to supply sanatorium treatment?

As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him on Thursday last. The second part appears to relate to the Salford Insurance Committee. At a meeting of the sanatorium benefit sub-committee, on 13th May, eighty-eight cases were considered; of these forty-two were old cases, who were recommended for further periods of treatment, ten of them in residential institutions, and all have received the treatment recommended except one, who has left for Australia, and one who was found after attendance at the dispensary not to be suffering from tuberculosis. Of the new applications forty-five were recommended for benefit, and all have received treatment, eight in residential institutions.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why it is that while the President of the Local Government Board promised a full reply to the first part of my question, and also undertook to look into the matter further, the hon. Gentleman now informs me that the question was replied to last week?

If the hon. Gentleman wants further information with regard to this entirely unsubstantiated charge he had better put another question down.

Central Administration (Cost)

asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the Insurance Commissioners, whether the estimated cost of the National Insurance audit department in 1914–15 is included in the sum of £876,140 which he gave as the estimated cost of central administration for 1914–15?

Workhouse Regulations (Camberwell)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the case at Lambeth Police Court at which an inmate of Camberwell workhouse was charged with the offence of laughing in the workhouse dining-hall; whether it was with his consent that the inmate was warned that if he repeated the offence of laughing he would be sent to gaol; and, if not, will he issue instructions that laughing during the time when the inmates are having their food shall no longer be a punishable crime?

I have seen a newspaper report of the case to which the hon. Member refers, from which it appears that the hon. Member has been misinformed, and that the offence with which the inmate was charged was that of refusing to perform his allotted task of work. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative. I think that inmates of workhouses may reasonably be required to maintain order and decorum during meal times, but I should not approve of a regulation requiring that strict silence should be enforced. Where a regulation in those terms has been submitted by a board of guardians the Local Government Board have raised objection and have secured is modification.

Are we to understand there is nothing in the Report at all that this inmate was had up for laughing at meal times?

My information is that the offence with which he was charged was that of refusing to perform his allotted task.

Is it the case that boards of guardians have submitted regulations proposing to make laughing at meal times an offence?

Some boards of guardians have submitted regulations to the effect that strict silence should be enforced, but the Local Government Board have refused to approve them.

Questions

Elementary School Teachers (Pensions)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether any arrangements are to be made by which pensions will be provided for fully qualified handicraft teachers in elementary schools; and, if not, whether he can explain why the conditions of employment of those teachers are differentiated from those of other full-time qualified teachers in such schools?

The only teachers in elementary schools whose service is pensionable are certificated teachers, and the reason for this is that Parliament has so decided. With regard to the future position of the handicraft teachers, I am at present unable to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member on 9th June.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, having recognised the importance of encouraging handicraft instruction in elementary schools, he can do anything to obtain pensions for fully-qualified teachers in these subjects?

The hon. Member knows there are other proposals in regard to pensions—in regard, for instance, to secondary teachers, who are teaching in schools receiving the Government Grant. The whole subject connected with the pensioning of teachers, other than those to whom Parliament has applied the Pensions Acts, is now under the consideration of the Government.

May I assume from the right hon. Gentleman's reply that some arrangement will be made to obtain pensions for the teachers to whom I have referred?

Free Education

asked the President of the Board of Education whether, seeing that the Elementary Education Act, 1891, is proposed to be repealed by the Finance Bill, he will say whether he proposes to take any and, if any, what steps to preserve the right of free education?

The right to free education does not now depend on the Elementary Education Act, 1891. It was originally established by Section 5 of that Act. This Section was repealed by the Education Act, 1902; and the right to free education is now dependent on Schedule III. (5) of the Education Act, 1902, which is unaffected by the proposals of the Finance Bill, and which imposes on a local education authority a duty to provide a sufficient amount of public school accommodation without payment of fees in every part of their area.

Does not that refer specially to those parents who claim, on the ground of poverty, that they are unable to pay the fees?

Any parent who makes representation that he desires to have free education supplied to his children is always reported to the Board, who immediately calls upon the local education authority to make good any deficiency in regard to the supply of free places.

Is not that a deviation from the position under the original Act? Is it not an attempt to place on the parent an obligation to give some reason why he is applying for free education? Is the door to remain open for the child to receive free education without the stigma of pauperism?

Under the Regulations of the Code and under the practice now in force for some years, there is no difference between the power which the individual will have to secure free education, and that which has already been in operation, and I am informed that the Finance Bill, as drafted, will not prejudice to any extent, or in any degree whatsoever, the right of the parent to claim free education for his child.

Are we to understand that the proposed legislation of the Government makes no difference whatever in the right to free education?

If there is any other idea will the right hon. Gentleman see that the Bill is amended in that direction?

I shall be quite prepared to consider any amendments that may be put down on the question, but so far as I am advised the right of parents to secure free education for their children, is not prejudiced in any way by the proposal of the Finance Bill.

asked the President of the Board of Education, with regard to the proposed repeal of the Free Education Act of 1891 by the Finance Bill, whether he has consulted, or will consult, the Law Officers of the Crown as to the rights which will survive, in the case of the Finance Bill passing into law, of parents to demand free elementary education for their children; and whether, in the Debate on the Finance Bill, he will explain the policy of the Government in regard to free education?

I am advised that there is no ambiguity in the law on the subject or as to the effect of the proposed repeal of the Elementary Education Act, 1891, and I see no occasion to consult the Law Officers of the Crown in the matter. There is no change in the policy of the Government with regard to free education, and parents will have the same right as hitherto to be provided with free education for their children.

The right hon. Gentleman said he had been advised. Will he state by whom he has been advised?

By my own legal advisers at the Board of Education, in whom I have absolute confidence in matters of this kind.

Would it not be well to fortify their advice by that of the Law Officers of the Crown?

If the hon. Member is of opinion that the Law Officers of the Crown would differ from my own legal advisers, I am quite prepared to submit a further point to the Law Officers of the Crown?

Continuation Schools and Secondary Education (Grants)

asked the President of the Board of Education what provision, if any, is being made by the Finance Bill or any other Government measure for affording to the local education authorities increased assistance from the Exchequer towards the expenses of continuation schools and secondary education?

It is intended to utilise part of any additional money available in the year 1915–16 for substantially increasing the Grants for secondary and technical education (including evening schools). I hope shortly to be in a position to make a further statement on the subject.

How soon will the right hon Gentleman be able to give us some more specific information on this subject?

Proposals are already under the consideration of the Treasury which I have placed before them with regard to the allocation of the £560,000 which was referred to in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget statement. At the present moment I cannot give further particulars until an arrangement has been arrived at with the Treasury in regard to the distribution of that sum.

Will the proposals receive Parliamentary sanction before they are acted upon by the Board or the Treasury?

I think that any expenditure of money of this sort will appear in due course on the Estimates. That is the proper opportunity which Parliament may take to criticise any proposals of this character.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make the statement to which he referred in answering my hon. Friend (Mr. C. Bathurst) in introducing his Estimates?

Disappearance of Women and Girls (London)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any, and, if so, how many, of the 3,644 women and girls which, on the 11th July, 1912, he stated had recently disappeared in London in a single year and had been subsequently traced, were found by the police to have left their families for causes connected with immorality and prostitution?

I understand the Noble Lord's question refers to women reported as missing who were afterwards traced—that is, in most cases, they returned to their families. In order to obtain the information required, it would be necessary for the police to make inquiry as to the morals of each of the women concerned—an inquiry which would give rise to grave offence in many cases, and would not be likely to produce correct information.

The right hon. Gentleman has misunderstood the question. Can he say whether, when the police traced these women, they received at that time any information which led them to understand that the women had disappeared from their families for the causes stated in my question?

No, Sir, we have no information at all that any of the women who subsequently returned to their homes—

I have no evidence at all that the women who were traced left their homes for immoral purposes.

asked how many women and girls were reported to the Metropolitan Police during 1913 as having disappeared, and how many of these were traced?

During the year ending 31st December, 1913, 1,083 girls under sixteen and 3,017 women were reported to the Metropolitan Police as missing. It should be explained, however, that many of these were reported missing from homes in the country, information being circulated in London in case they should find their way here. The whole of the 1,083 girls were traced, and also 2,942 of the women. As regards the seventy-five cases not found, debt, family quarrels, uncomfortable situations, and similar reasons play an important part in the disappearances. The number of cases in which the disappearance was believed to be connected with irregular relations with men is about ten. In only one of these cases was there the slightest suspicion that the woman had been decoyed. The police made the closest inquiry, but were not able to find proof of the suspicion.

asked the Home Secretary what were the months to which the figures referred which he gave in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Blackburn on 11th July, 1912, on the subject of the disappearance of women and girls in London?

Colliery Disasters (Shot-firing)

asked the Home Secretary whether, in the opinion of the Home Office, it is possible to state with any certainty that no one of the recent colliery disasters at Senghenydd, Cadeby, the Pretoria Pit, Hulton, or the Maypole Colliery, Wigan, respectively, could possibly have been due to accidents in shot-firing?

In the case of the first two disasters, it is quite certain, and in the case of the third there are strong reasons for believing, that shot-firing had nothing to do with their occurrence. In the case of the Maypole explosion, it seems probable that the ignition of the gas or coal dust was caused by a shot, but there is nothing to connect the accident with the method of firing.

Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Scotland (Officials' Superannuation)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is prepared to make proposals for the superannuation of the officials of reformatory and industrial schools of Scotland?

I am not prepared to make proposals of the kind referred to. The subject of reformatory and industrial schools in Scotland is now being considered by a Departmental Committee, and I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh, on 16th June.

Will that Committee consider the position of the officials apart from general considerations?

If my hon. Friend will read the answer, he will find that is dealt with.

Trinidad

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is proposed to lease the Valsayn estate, the property of the Trinidad Government, situated at Tunapuna, to a company which proposes to manufacture paper from bamboo fibre; whether this arrangement will have the effect of turning out any of the small farmers who have cultivated the property in the past, and, if so, how many will be disturbed, and what arrangements are being made for them; how many acres does the property consist of; how many are the company going to lease; and what is the price per acre to be paid?

I have not received any intimation from the Governor that the letting of this estate is contemplated by the Colonial Government, but if proposals to lease it are made, I feel sure that all material considerations, including those mentioned by my hon. Friend, will be duly weighed.

British Guiana

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has yet received a memorial from the Georgetown Town Council on the subject of the Governor of British Guiana's proposal to amend the Georgetown Town Council Ordinance; and whether due consideration will be given to the terms of the memorial before the said proposals are confirmed?

The memorial has not yet reached me, but will receive due consideration when it arrives.

Conferment of Honours

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the number of peerages, baronetcies, privy councillorships, knighthoods, and decorations conferred in 1902 was 1,542, in 1911 was 515, and in 1913 was 375, and that the conferment of these honours gives rise to disappointment and criticism; and whether, in connection with the reform of the Upper House, he will propose a legislative restriction of the conferment of titles and other honours?

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask whether he can state what proportion of the figures for 1902 is due to appointments to the Order of the Bath and the Distinguished Service Order in connection with the termination of the South African War? [An HON. MEMBER: "And the Coronation!"]

I cannot answer that question without notice. In reply to the question on the Paper, I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of my hon. Friend's figures, but I am not prepared to adopt the suggestion he proposes in the latter part of his question.

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman say whether a great many of these honours were given for war services and in respect of the Coronation?

Income Tax Law (Codification)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government contemplate taking any action with regard to the codification of the Income Tax Law during the present Parliament?

I am unable to add anything to the answer given by my right hon. Friend to the hon. Member for Kilkenny on the 7th ultimo.

Women Suffrage

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that women, having no electoral voice in the selection of Members in this House, persistently allege that they suffer as a class from wrongs which a man-made Parliament will not redress, and in view of the fact also that many Members opposed to the extension of the franchise to women have nevertheless repeatedly expressed their willingness to support any measures for the removal of such injustices as may be shown to exist, he will set up a Select Committee to inquire into and report on alleged grievances?

His Majesty's Government are quite willing to consider any grievances which may be shown to exist, and I hardly think the establishment of a Select Committee for the purpose suggested necessary.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that Lord Murray of Elibank has recently advocated a Referendum of the electors on Women Suffrage, preferably previous to the next General Election; and whether he will approach the Leaders of the Opposition with a view of finding out whether a Bill with this object might be recognised as non-contentious?

I have seen in the public Press a letter from Lord Murray on this subject, but I am not satisfied that the suggestion made in it is the proper method of dealing with the question referred to, nor do I think that a Bill for the object is likely to be regarded as non-contentious.

International Agricultural Institute (Rome)

asked the Prime Minister if Great Britain, alone among the great Powers, is not represented by a permanent delegate at the International Agricultural Institute at Rome; and whether the Government will take steps to remedy this national defect?

The Government have had this matter under consideration, and arrangements are being made for the permanent representation of Great Britain on the committee of the institute.

Scottish Office

asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the advisability of creating an Under-Secretary of State to deal with the mass of new work added to the Scottish Office by the Board of Agriculture?

Has the Government in contemplation a change in any other Departments in the Scottish Office other than the Department of Agriculture?

I have answered the question. I will look into the whole matter.

Home Rule (Scotland)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that on a recent Glasgow Bill the attendance in London of the right hon. the Lord Provost for 53 days, of four bailies for 190 days together, and of six city councillors for 275 days in all was required; whether he is aware that on the same Bill the attendance of the town clerk for 54 days, the depute town clerk for 77 days, seven members of the town clerk's staff for 212 days in all, the city assessor for 86 days, and one member of his staff for 43 days, the city engineer for 34 days, and three members of his staff for 67 days in all, the tramway manager for 21 days, the water engineer for 19 days, the water treasurer for 19 days, the master of works for 75 days, the medical officer of health for 24 days, the sanitary inspector for 21 days, the chief constable for 21 days, the fire master for six days, the inspector of lighting for 11 days, and city registrar for 10 days was also required; and whether, in view of facts of this kind, which can be multiplied all over Scotland, he will reconsider his decision not to introduce a Bill dealing with Scottish Home Rule this Session, or give an undertaking that such a Bill will be introduced in 1915?

I have no reason to doubt that the facts are as stated by my hon. Friend, but I fear it is not practicable for the Government to introduce such a Bill as is suggested this year. I can say nothing as to the business of next Session.

Is it the case that in a great many cases where money is spent in such a way that the spending of it in London instead of elsewhere is due to the choice of the local authorities themselves?

Might not these inquiries have been held in Scotland under the Private Procedure Act if the authorities had been willing?

Revenue Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether the policy announced by the President of the Local Government Board at Cheltenham on 13th June, 1914, that Clauses would be introduced in the Revenue Bill to give power to the Board of Agriculture to borrow money to obtain land to build cottages for labourers, has been abandoned; if so, what has been the reason for so doing; and will any other Bill for this purpose be introduced this Session?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. Owing to questions of procedure, it was not found possible to incorporate in the Finance Bill the Clauses referred to, but a measure dealing with this matter will be introduced very shortly.

Then why was it that the President of the Local Government Board announced at Cheltenham as recently as 13th June that it would be better dealt with in the Revenue Bill?

When I said the Finance Bill, I meant the Revenue Bill. My right hon. Friend was under the impression that it would be incorporated, but he found, as a matter of Procedure, that it could not be done, and that it would have to be a separate Bill.

My right hon. Friend (the Prime Minister) says it will be introduced at an early date.

asked the Prime Minister (1) why the Government have abandoned their intention of making provision in the Revenue Bill for dividing the rateable value of land so as to distinguish the value attributable to houses, buildings, or other improvements, and the value attributable to the land without the houses, buildings, or other improvements; and (2) whether the Government propose to introduce in the present Session any other Bill than the Revenue Bill for the purpose of dividing rateable value; whether it has been found that such division is impracticable?

also asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the reason why temporary Grants are made under the Finance Bill in England and Wales for the period from 1st April, 1915, to 30th September, 1915, but no temporary Grants are made in Scotland for the same period?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the provision for dividing the rateable value of land so as to distinguish the values attributable to improvements and to unimproved land, respectively, subject to which alone the promised relief to ratepayers in respect to national services will, under Clause 13 of the Finance Bill, become available, is intended to be made by Clause 1 of the Revenue Bill, which provides only for the collection of information with a view to the above division; and, if not, by what Government measure such division of rateable value will be provided for; and whether such measure will be introduced during the present Session?

The matters referred to in these questions will be dealt with in the course of the Debate on the Finance Bill.

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether, in his view, the Revenue Bill does provide for dividing the rateable value?

All the questions of the hon. and learned Gentleman are very debatable matter, which I could not answer in the course of a reply to a question, but they will be dealt with in debate.

Does the right hon. Gentleman say that we shall be able to debate the Revenue Bill to-day?

I did not say so. What I said was that the questions raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman will be debated.

Does the right hon. Gentleman say that we shall be able to discuss that question to-day?

No. Neither will the hon. and learned Gentleman be able to debate it now.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question on the Paper?

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman simply say whether Clause 1 of the Revenue Bill is a fulfilment of the condition precedent in Clause 13 of the Finance Bill?

I should say certainly it is, but that is exactly one of the questions which will be dealt with in the course of the Debate this afternoon.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the complexity of the Revenue Bill, 1914, and its importance to owners of any rateable property, he will issue a brief memorandum explanatory of its main provisions?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the complexity of the provisions of the Finance Bill and the Revenue Bill, he will at an early date circulate explanatory memoranda with reference to the Clauses and provisions of both Bills?

I will circulate a memorandum explaining the provisions of the Revenue Bill, but I do not consider that any further memorandum is required in connection with the Finance Bill.

British Army

Men Married Off the Strength

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that soldiers married off the strength have to deprive themselves of necessary food in order to share it with their wives and families, and of the conditions under which their wives and families are compelled to live, he proposes to introduce immediate legislation to alter this state of affairs?

The recently published Report on marriage off the strength is being considered. It will, I think, be possible without legislation to give effect to any changes that may be approved.

When will the hon. Gentleman make his promised statement on the subject?

Army Canteen Case

asked the Secretary of State for War if Colonel C. H. T. Whitaker, who was recently sentenced to six months' imprisonment in connection with the Army canteen case, will be deprived of his pension in consequence of this conviction?

Colonel Whitaker has appealed against his conviction, and the case is therefore sub judice.

Special Reserve (Rank of Captain)

asked whether any officers in the Special Reserve have recently been promoted to the rank of captain who had less than ten years' service in the Special Reserve?

Such promotion is normal in the case of officers of units promoted to fill a vacancy.

West Herts Hospital (Civil Driver Simon)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of civilian Driver Simon, who was admitted to the West Herts hospital, Hemel Hempstead, in September, 1913, during the Army manœuvres, on terms previously arranged between the hospital and the Deputy Director of Medical Services, Eastern Command; whether payment of the hospital's account for this case, amounting to £11 5s., has been refused by the military authorities; and, if so, whether he will make inquiry into this case, with a view to reimbursing the hosiptal for the loss sustained?

This man was an employé of a firm of messing contractors, and it is for them to deal with the claim preferred by the West Herts hospital. I understand the military authorities have brought the matter to the notice of the contractor.

Questions

Government of Ireland (Amendment) Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether he has now perused the speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer delivered on the 10th June; and will he inform the House whether the latter Minister is authorised to state what the Government of Ireland Amendment Bill will contain before such Bill is laid before the House of Lords or the House of Commons?

No, Sir, no such speech was delivered by my right hon. Friend on the date referred to. As regards the latter part of the question, I can add nothing to the reply which I gave the hon. Member on 15th June.

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the speech delivered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Saturday in which the same statement is made?

Was the statement contained in the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Saturday made with the right hon. Gentleman's knowledge and authority?

asked the Prime Minister if any steps have yet been taken with a view to a discussion between the representatives of the various parties concerned, with the object of coming to an agreement as to the treatment of Ulster under the Government of Ireland Bill; if not, will he state whether it was with his authority that the Secretary of State for India intimated that the contents of the amending Bill would depend on any agreement that might be arrived at in conversations between the party leaders during the next week; and how it is proposed to initiate such conversations?

The speech of my Noble Friend in another place was made on behalf of the Government. As regards the rest of the question I am not prepared to add anything to what I have stated in the House on this subject.

Have discussions taken place between the right hon. Gentleman and the Leader of the Irish party, directly or indirectly, on the subject of this Bill?

Railway Bills

asked the Prime Minister if he will consider the advisability of conferring on the Raliway and Canal Commission as at present constituted, or otherwise, powers to deal with Railway Bills so as to ensure that proposals necessary for the satisfactory working of the railway systems of this country in the public and national interest shall receive fair consideration on their merits, subject, if necessary, to Parliament having an opportunity subsequently of considering any proposals which may be passed by the Commissioners?

The question raised by the hon. Member is within the scope of the Royal Commission now sitting to consider the relations between the railway companies and the State, and pending their Report I prefer not to express any opinion on the suggestion.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it advisable in the public interest that important railway Bills should be thrown out not on a question of merit, but simply because, perhaps, a company happens to have slight trouble with its employés?

House of Lords (Reform)

asked the Prime Minister when he intends to submit to Parliament the proposals of the Government with regard to the reform of the Second Chamber?

As I have already stated, the Government intend to submit proposals on this subject this Session. I cannot say more at present.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give no indication at all when the proposals are likely to be submitted? Will it be before the end of July?

Somaliland

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he will lay upon the Table the promised Papers on Somaliland; and whether he can undertake that they will be up-to-date?

I will lay Papers as soon as possible, and I can undertake that they will be as up-to-date as circumstances will permit.

asked the Secretary of State for the 'Colonies whether he has any information showing that two British officers are at present in Somaliland conducting inquiries as to the feasability of using an airship for the purpose of an expedition to subdue the Mullah; and, if so, will he say what are the crimes recently committed by the Mullah which are held to justify such an unusual method of carrying on war against him?

Two British officers with experience of aeronautics have recently visited Somaliland, but it is at present inadvisable in the public interest that any statement should be made regarding the objects of their visit.

Universal Service (Australia)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has yet received the particulars which he stated some time ago were being obtained as to the working of the system of universal service in force in Australia; and when they will be available for the information of the House?

I informed the hon. Member in reply to his question of 23rd July last that the next Report of the Commonwealth Defence Minister would be placed in the Library of the House when received. It was received last November, and a copy was at once placed in the Library.

Finance Bill

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in boroughs where differential rating exists, he will provide that, under the Finance Bill, 1914, the produce of a rate shall equal the amount which a rate actually produces, as under the present method of calculating the produce of a rate under the Education (Produce of Rate) Order, 1903, local authorities, where such differential rating obtains, are deprived of a proportion of Government Grants by reason of this method of calculation?

Generally speaking, I think that Government Grants, when they depend upon the produce of a rate, ought not to be affected one way or the other in their total amount by arrangements for differential rating of parts of the area made to suit local convenience.

Super-Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, after due consideration of the matter, he has decided that it would be fair to Income Tax payers under Schedule A who also pay Super-tax to make their Super-tax returns for the current financial year on the footing that full deductions for maintenance, insurance, repairs, and management beyond the 25 per cent. limit are allowed in arriving at the amount of their net income?

When will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give us some definite information on the matter?

I have no doubt at all that when we get into Committee there will be Amendments on the subject. It seems to me that the proper time to deal with these questions will be in Committee on the Finance Bill.

Are forms now being made out which ought to be sent in without delay?

Will the right hon. Gentleman give instructions to the Revenue officials not to demand returns for Super-tax until this question has been decided?

Taxation of Titles

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been given to a proposal that a tax should be levied on all persons using titles, the tax being so graded that titles of superior precedence should be charged more than lower styles, and so combined with the Super-tax that persons using the style and title of duke should pay at the rate of a Super-tax on an income of £10,000, and lower ranks proportionately less; and whether he will make inquiries as to the advisability of adopting this method of raising revenue?

The suggestion of my hon. Friend presents many attractive features, but I fear it is too late to adopt it this year.

Might not the suggestion lead to complications when the Patronage. Secretary is preparing a provisional honours' list?

Land Valuation

asked what is the present position of the land valuations in Ireland under the Budget of 1909; how many valuations have been completed and how many remain to be made; and how many of those completed will have to be revalued under decisions of the Courts which have affected them?

The number of provisional valuations issued in Ireland so far is 204,000, and the number remaining to be served for cities, towns, and urban districts is about 120,000. It is not possible to answer the last part of the question further than to say that practically no revaluation will be necessary in the event of the Revenue Bill becoming law.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question on the Paper—How many valuations have been completed? He said how many valuations had been served. Exactly the same thing happened the other day in regard to England.

That is the only figure which has been supplied to me by the Valuation Department in Ireland. I am not sure that they are in a position to give the other figures.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire, both as to England and Ireland, how many valuations have been completed? That information will be very interesting to the House.

asked whether, in the event of any additional relief to rate payers being made by means of any payments under Grants as set forth in Part IV. of the Finance Bill, 1914, prior relief will be given to railway companies in respect of the value attributable to the permanent ways they have constructed as well as to the value attributable to houses, buildings, and other similar improvements in their possession?

It is not contemplated to give railway companies prior-relief as compared with other ratepayers.

asked how many of the 5,924,710 valuations which have been served under the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, have been agreed and are now complete, and how many of these valuations are affected by the test case now before the Courts?

The information asked for is, I regret, not available, and. could only be obtained by an expenditure of time and labour quite disproportionate to its value.

May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman knows at all how we stand in regard to these valuations?

Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer say how there can be any difficulty in getting a statement from the Department of the number of valuations they have received if there is no difficulty in getting the number served?

I can only give the information supplied to me by the officials on the point that it would involve a vast amount of labour to ascertain in any part of the country what the actual stage of the valuation is.

Will it be more difficult to state the number of valuations completed than the number of valuations served? What we want to know is the number completed.

That is the question on the Paper. I have given the answer the Department have supplied to me. They say that it would be difficult to get the number at the present moment.

Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that it is difficult, or does he mean that it would be inconvenient?

No, but inconvenience to the officials, and interruption of their work is an element in the matter.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has made any estimate of the time that will be required to complete the 2,000,000 valuations still to be served under the Finance Act of 1909; and if the work will take at least three more years before it is complete if it is not delayed by further test cases and changes in the basis of valuation?

I see no reason for departing from the statement which on various occasions has been made to this House, that the service of provisional valuations would be substantially completed by the 31st March next.

When will they be completed? These are served, I think, and it does not take us a bit further to say that they have been served. When will the valuations be completed—in three years or four years?

The hon. Gentleman is a lawyer, and he knows perfectly well that you may be able to arrive at an estimate when the valuers have completed their work, but that does not mean that you can tell when the lawyers will be done with their work.

Old Age Pensions

asked why George Penfannis, aged eighty-three, of 96, Brunswick Road, Leyton, has been re fused his old age pension?

I am making inquiries, and will in due course communicate the result to the hon. Member.

Surveyors of Taxes (Clerks)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what improvement has been made as regards the conditions of service of clerks to surveyors of taxes since he undertook, in July, 1913, to take steps with a view to improving their position; and if he will state how many of these employés are still in receipt of a weekly wage of less than 30s.?

I am afraid I can add nothing at present to the answer given to the hon. Member for North Down on the 23rd April last. The number of clerks to surveyors of taxes (exclusive of boy clerks) in receipt of a weekly wage of less than 30s. is 326.

Could not the right hon. Gentleman say when he is going to carry out the promises made to these officers just twelve months ago?

Is the House to understand that there is no faith to be placed in the promises of Ministers?

The hon. Gentleman has no right to assume that. This is a matter that has been dealt with by the heads of the Inland Revenue, and they are doing their best to carry out the pledges given as regards amalgamation, and I think they are doing it successfully. There are difficulties in the way, and at present they are liquidating their promises with success.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that he personally gave me an undertaking last July, and that Mr. Masterman also gave an undertaking, that this matter would be dealt with possibly in March, and certainly not later than July?

I have not before me the answer which the right hon. Gentleman did give, but I will look into the matter.

Bills Presented

Shops Bill

"To amend the Shops Act, 1912." Presented by Mr. POINTER; supported by Mr. Ramsay Macdonald, Mr. George Roberts, Mr. Parker, Mr. Barnes, and Mr. Charles Duncan; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 1st July, and to be printed. [Bill 291.]

COUNTY AND BOROUGH COUNCILS (QUALIFICATION (No. 3) BILL

"To extend the qualification for membership of county and borough councils." Presented by Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL; supported by Mr. Herbert Lewis; to be read a second time to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 292.]

Preferential Voting Bill

"To amend the law relating to Parliamentary Elections." Presented by Dr. CHAPPLE; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 1st July, and to be printed. [Bill 293.]

Orders of the Day

Finance Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Questions of Procedure

Before this Order is taken, I desire to submit certain points of Order with reference to the Finance Bill and the Revenue Bill. The first point is that the part of the title of the Finance Bill and of the Bill itself which relates to Grants for local purposes is outside the scope of the Resolution upon which alone the Bill was ordered to be brought in. In the case of a Bill founded on Resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means no question is put that leave be given to bring in the Bill, but as soon as Resolutions have been agreed to a Bill is ordered upon the Resolutions. This Order takes the place of the Order of Leave, and the title of a Bill, as well as the Bill itself, must be in conformity with the Resolutions just as an ordinary Bill must be in conformity with the Order of Leave. In the present case six Resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means relating to Income Tax, Super-tax, and Death Duties, having been agreed to on 14th May, a Bill was ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolutions. No Resolutions have been passed relating to Grants for local purposes, and no Instruction, leave, or authority, has been given by the House to insert provisions relating to these Grants in the Bill ordered. Yet the title of the Bill actually presented, and more than two-thirds of the Bill itself, deal with these Grants. The Government in fact without any sanction from the House have tacked on to the Bill which was authorised solely upon the Resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means, a Local Government Bill of great importance and complexity. The result is that the House has upon Second Reading to discuss those parts of the Bill which have been tacked on without authority, as well as the portions of the Bill which have been duly authorised.

In previous years, 1907 and 1908, subsidiary Clauses outside the Resolutions were inserted in Bills, but before coming on for Second Reading Resolutions were passed and Instructions were incorporated in the Bill. A similar thing occurred in 1894. I entirely support the principle of the Grants, but I submit that the old procedure should have been followed. The Government should have dealt with the local Grants in a separate Bill, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said would be done. If the procedure adopted in this case were allowed to pass into a precedent, there would be no limit to what a Government could, without the sanction of the House, and indeed contrary to the wish of the House, tack on to a Bill ordered by Committee of Ways and Means. My second point is that the provisions relating to the National Debt should not have been inserted in the Finance Bill, as no Resolution in regard to the National Debt had been passed when the Finance Bill was brought in. A Resolution dealing with the subject was subsequently passed, and a separate and distinct Bill was ordered upon that Resolution. My third point arises in connection with the Revenue Bill, and it is that Clause 1 deals with rating, and has been improperly tacked on to a Bill which was authorised to amend the law relating to Customs and Excise.

There are two points on which I also would like your ruling. The first is that Section 5 of Clause 13 of the Finance Bill is merely an amendment of the Home Rule Bill. It gives power to increase the transferred sum by £697,000. It does not in any way state that that £697,000 is to be allocated to local government charges, but it gives freedom to the new Home Rule Government to spend it in any way it pleases. In the title of this Bill there is nothing about the amendment of the Home Rule Bill, and, therefore, I venture to submit that Section 5 of Clause 13 is beyond the scope of the title of this Bill, and that therefore the Bill is out of order. I would also ask you whether or not it is the old-established custom of this House that where a Bill deals solely with money that Bill cannot be introduced unless founded upon a Money Resolution brought in in Committee of the Whole House, but where there is a Bill, part of which deals with money, and the other part, the greater part—I have the statement here in the Manual of Proceedings—deals with other subjects, then it is allowable that the Clauses dealing with the money are printed in italics. Looking through the Bill, you will see the whole of the Clauses down to Section 4 have been founded, or are supposed to have been founded, upon a Money Resolution, but when you came to Part IV. you will see that all the Clauses there are printed in italics. Therefore, I venture to submit that that is evidence that the Government knew that these Clauses which have been printed in italics ought to have been founded upon a Money Resolution, and inasmuch as the first part was to have been founded, and was founded, upon a Money Resolution—there is nothing in this Bill except money—therefore it is not in order to bring in Part IV. unless it is, first of all, founded upon a Money Resolution.

Mr. BUTCHER rose—

I will deal first with the objection taken by the hon. and learned Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Cassel). The objection taken by the hon. and learned Member is that this Finance Bill goes beyond the "leave to introduce" or its equivalent, the Bill having been introduced upon Resolutions—in other words, that it goes beyond the Order which the House then made. There can be no doubt that that is so. The question is, What is the proper course to pursue in the circumstances? The hon. and learned Gentleman did not in so many words suggest that the Bill should be withdrawn, but assuming that that was the suggestion which underlay his objection—that the Bill being improperly brought in, should not be proceeded with—the answer which I give to that is, that the irregularity can be cured, without any injustice being done to any section of the House or to any interest concerned. I find, on looking up the precedent to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred, that on the 24th May, 1894, objection was taken by Mr. Gibson Bowles to the fact that the Finance Bill of that year imposed certain taxes which were not contained in the Resolutions, and he took practically the same point as the hon. and learned Member. Mr. Speaker Peel, in answer, said that the proper course then to take was not to withdraw the Bill, but to introduce Resolutions in Committee of Ways and Means authorising those Clauses in the Bill which were irregular.

I quite agree with one matter to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred. It is desirable in these cases, if possible, to keep the Bill which imposes taxes upon the people separate from the Bill which proposes to expend the money derived from the imposition of those taxes. Speaking generally, I think that it would be desirable, if possible, to return to the older practice of confining the Finance Bill to the imposition of taxes, and arrangements for dealing with the National Debt and so forth. I say "the older practice," because there can be no doubt that a more recent practice has obtained. I looked, for instance, at the Bills of 1908, 1909 and 1911. In the year 1908 Resolutions upon which that Finance Bill was founded were passed on the 26th of May. The Bill was issued on the 27th of May. In that Bill there were three Clauses in italics, much the same as in this Bill, where there are two, showing that for those Clauses the House had not, up to the time of circulating the Bill, given any authority. On the subsequent day, 27th May, Resolutions were passed by the House authorising the substance of that which was contained in the Clauses in italics, and an Instruction was also passed to provide for their inclusion in the Finance Bill. In 1909 the Finance Bill was also introduced on the 26th of May. In that Bill there were four Clauses in italics, but it was not until the 24th of September that Resolutions were passed authorising the subject-matter of the Clauses in italics to be inserted in the Bill. In 1911 the Bill was introduced on the 22nd of May. There was one Clause in italics, and it was not until the 7th of December that the Resolution was passed authorising the substance of that which was contained in that Clause being inserted in the Bill. Therefore, so far as Part IV. of this Bill goes, I think that I am following the precedent of 1894, and what has recently occurred in saying that the proper course for the Government to take is to introduce a Resolution authorising the subject-matter of those Clauses 13 and 14, and then probably—I am not quite certain about this—it may require an Instruction from the Committee to insert the substance of those Clauses into the Bill.

With regard to Part V., the National Debt, difficulty has arisen in this case by reason of the fact that the Finance Bill was founded upon the first six Resolutions, which did not deal with the National Debt at all. The Inland Revenue Bill was founded upon the seventh Resolution, which dealt with the proposed change in the National Debt. Therefore the Finance Bill is not founded upon the Resolution relating to the National Debt. The difficulty, therefore, has to be overcome in a Similar way in this case also. The question is: How is the National Debt Clause, Clause 15, to be authorised? I think that it will be necessary in this case either again to read the Resolution relating to the National Debt—what is called the General Resolution—before proceeding to deal with the National Debt Clause in Committee, or it may be necessary to introduce another Resolution dealing with the National Debt alone and probably an Instruction also in either case may be necessary to enable the Clause to be inserted in the Finance Bill. I might say perhaps in confirmation of that statement, that the Resolution, which has already been agreed to in respect of one part can be used in respect of another. There is authority for that. We had two cases of that in the year 1911.

4.0 P.M.

That deals with the two points raised by the hon. and learned Member. Now I come to the point raised by the hon. Member for the City of London, which is that Sub-section (5) of Clause 13 is really intended as an amendment to the Home Rule Bill which ought to be dealt with as an amendment to the Home Rule Bill, and not here. The fact that this is an addition does not prevent its being incorporated in the Bill. I believe, as a matter of fact, that it is paid into the local taxation account, and therefore may properly be described as a matter for the local authorities. At all events, I do not see why the House, if it chooses, should not vote the sum in this way, even if it might do it in the other way.

My point was that the title of the Bill is that it is a Bill to "continue the Duty of Customs on tea, to reimpose Income Tax and Super-tax, with amendments and modifications, and to amend the law relating to the Death Duties and National Debt and Grants for local purposes, and for purposes incidental thereto." Some of these purposes are not stated in the Bill, and therefore, I submit, do not come within its scope.

The Grant is for local purposes, and is to be paid into the local taxation account.

As to the procedure in regard to the National Debt, you indicated that it might be necessary to again read the Resolution relating to the National Debt and general amendment of the law before that Clause was proceeded with. Will you be good enough to inform the House what was to be the procedure in that matter? Would the Resolution be read in Committee and reported afresh to the House, or would it be read in the House, and would it be open to discussion on either or both of those stages?

That will be only formal. The Resolution would be read from the Table before the House went into Committee, and then, I said, that possibly it might be necessary to have an Instruction authorising the House to deal with the matter which had been agreed to. But that does not press for the moment, and I will give further consideration to it.

Am I to understand that if the Resolution were read we could take a Division upon it, or is it purely formal?

There is no Question put, and it would only be read. If a new Resolution were introduced dealing only with the National Debt, and not with the general amendment of the law, of course it would have to be put in Committee for discussion.

If the Resolution dealing with the National Debt and general amendment of the law is read, with a view to proceeding with this Clause in the Bill, would the whole of the Resolution then be applicable to the Bill, in other words, would that part of it which deals with the general amendment of the law become applicable to this Bill, and give Members opportunity, on the Bill, to move any Amendments they please to amend the law?

Yes, I think so; and that is why I said it might be possible to bring in a Resolution dealing only with the National Debt.

May I ask whether the Irish point raised by my hon. Friend does not arise in connection with the Parliament Act, and is it possible to get round the Parliament Act in an important matter like this by amendment of the Finance Bill?

In view of the great importance of this matter, I wish to call attention to the way in which the Rule is stated in Sir Erskine May's book. It is to the effect that a Bill, as brought in, must correspond with the Order on which it is brought in, and that if it does not, the Bill must be withdrawn. Sir Erskine May stated this as an absolute rule, to which effect is to be given if attention is called to the matter before the Second Reading of the Bill. Of course, if attention is not called to it before the Second Reading, I take it that the defect is waived so far as the Second Reading is concerned, but it has to be remedied in the Committee stage. The passage in Sir Erskine May's book (11th edition, p. 465) is as follows:—

"In preparing Bills, care must be taken that they do not contain provisions which are not authorized by the Order of Leave, that the title corresponds with the Order of Leave, and that the Bill itself is prepared pursuant to the Order of Leave, and in proper form; for should it appear that these rules have not been observed, the House will order it to be withdrawn. Such objections however shall be taken before the Second Reading."

It would appear from your ruling, Sir, that in the present case this rule has not been observed, and the contention of my hon. and learned Friend is correct, that the Bill has not been prepared pursuant to the Order of Leave, and that attention being called to it, the House is bound by precedent which has continued from the date 1797, to order the Bill to be withdrawn. Those precedents to which attention has been called—1908, 1909, and 1911—were, as I understand, precedents in which no objection had been taken before the Second Reading of the Finance Bill in those years. In that case, if I may say so, I respectfully agree that the difficulty could be met by means of a procedure such as indicated by Mr. Speaker. But here attention is called before the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, and I ask you, Sir, whether it would not be more in accordance with the practice of the House that the Order for the Second Reading of the Bill should be withdrawn?

I make one objection to what has fallen from the hon. and learned Gentleman, and it is a very technical one. It is that Clauses 13 and 14 are really not now in the Bill, although they appear in italics. They must not be put into the Bill before authority is obtained. Therefore, that is the technical objection with which I might meet the technical objection of the hon. and learned Member. I will not press it further than that. But I would say that the precedents, as they now exist, really go to show that this practice has obtained. Whether it is a good or a bad practice, I will not now further discuss, but we have had the practice during recent years. There is a possibility of curing the difficulty which appears in the Bill, and I think that the proper course for the House to take is to cure the difficulty in the manner I have suggested.

Would it be in order to discuss Clauses 13 and 14 on the Second Reading, if they are not in the Bill?

I do not see how discussion of them can be kept out. The charges which are proposed to be levied in Parts I., II., and III. are to be expended in Part IV.; therefore, hon. Members would surely be entitled, when the Income Tax is to be raised and other taxes are to be dealt with, to discuss the objects on which the taxation is to be spent.

As these two Clauses are not now in the Bill, and therefore may be assumed not to have had a. Second Reading, is it permissible, in Committee afterwards, to add them to the Bill, thus bringing them within its scope; and may I ask whether it would be in order, as an Amendment to the Bill, to move new clauses such as those, and, having passed the Second Reading, would they not be, so far, outside the scope of the Bill. If they were not included in the Bill at the time of the Second Reading, I submit that they could not be added afterwards, even though authorised by Resolution?

I have just stated the opposite, that the Resolution must be passed before the Clauses are discussed in Committee.

New Budget Proposals

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

In rising, on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to move the Second Reading of this Bill, I do so partly because my right hon. Friend desires to reserve his right to speak at a later period of the Debate, when he will be called upon to answer questions and arguments, and, also, partly because the central portion of the Finance Bill is the one which has perhaps most interest both on that side of the House and upon this; and that is the portion of the Bill which deals with Grants to local authorities, with which the Local Government Board are most closely concerned. Let me, in the first instance, invite the attention of the House to the central principles on which this Budget is founded, and ask them to consider how far there is a divergence of views with respect to matters of policy. In the first place, my right hon. Friend's Bill has for its prime object, that new sources of revenue should be provided for local authorities. We have been pressed during many years past to make provision, through national finance, for the allocation of larger Grants to local authorities to assist in carrying out their work, and we have been pressed on both sides to redeem the pledges which have been repeatedly given and in the most specific terms. But, more than that, it has not only been because of the pressure put upon the Government by local authorities and by the House of Commons that we have in previous years and in this year declared that it was our intention to propose to Parliament additional Grants to local authorities, but we gave this pledge in that way, holding the view that to give the local authorities more elbow room in matters of finance is vital to the prosecution of the policy of social reform to which the State in these days is committed.

We have delegated to the local authorities the whole administration of the laws relating to public health, relating to national education, and relating to a score of other matters that very closely touch the lives of the people, and it is obvious that those purposes, the fulfilment of which is essential to the social progress of the country, cannot be adequately attained so long as the revenue of the local authorities is in the main derived, as now, from a single source. It is true that much has been accomplished by our local authorities in recent years, and in all those spheres of social work great results have already been achieved. But hon. Members know full well the vast magnitude of the task which still remains to be achieved, and the handicap that is laid on the local authorities—not through any fault of their own, but on account of inadequate finance—in combating ignorance, unhealthiness. and undeserved poverty and disease in all their forms, and they will feel that unless we deal with this matter of local administration from the standpoint of national finance, it is impossible that the nation will be able to clean itself from the impurities that still attach to it, and to remove the social evils which we all agree, on all sides of the House, demand a cure. Therefore, the pledges that have been given with respect to increasing the financial resources of the local authorities, have not been given merely in obedience to pressure from local authorities and by Members of this House, but have been given because such assistance is an essential part of that policy the centre of which our modern Liberalism seeks to be. My hon. Friends who have put down Amendments to the Second Reading of this Bill will not demur to that standpoint. I believe that all Members on this side of the House agree that it is necessary that help should be afforded, and that the pledges we have given should be fulfilled, and that the revenue of local authorities should be drawn from other sources than those from which local rates are obtained.

The second principle in the Budget is this, that personalty ought to contribute to the expenditure of our local authorities. While all these evils to which I have referred endure at the present time, luxury has been carried to a height almost unprecedented, and fortunes are accumulated which, to our fathers, would have been almost inconceivable. In our view the nation ought not to tolerate the continuance of those evils in town and in country, a continuance which is consequent upon the inadequacy of the financial resources of the local authorities, while at the same time the wealth of the nation has so vastly increased, and all the world knows there are adequate resources to hand if Parliament will seek to tap them. If we had proposed in this Bill or in another Bill a local Income Tax, I doubt whether anyone would have objected on grounds of theory. Indeed, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer mentioned in introducing this Bill, a great financial authority, Lord St. Aldwyn, has declared in favour of the principle of local Income Tax, and there is no question but that there is throughout the country an almost universal feeling that it is not fair that incomes should escape from contributing in proportion to their amount to the heavy charges which rest upon our local authorities. But we have not proposed a local Income Tax for these reasons: In the first place it is, as experience in other countries shows, a matter of extreme difficulty involving infinite complications to apportion the income of individuals, and still more of companies, to particular localities, and to say to what district any particular income of an individual or a firm or company should be allocated for purposes of taxation. In the second place, nothing is easier than for professional men of large means to escape the heavier local Income Tax of the town than by moving to the country where their Income Taxes are lighter, and where they might obtain their domicile for the purpose of taxation.

That has been the experience in Germany, where a large part of the taxable wealth of the country does not in fact contribute its fair share to the local Income Tax for that reason. Thirdly, it will be obvious if you have an Income tax varying according to the locality, you must abandon our present simple system of collection at the source. A railway company cannot deduct the tax before it distributes its dividend, if the dividend holder is to pay Income Tax at a different rate according to the place of his residence. For those three reasons we have come to the conclusion that, however desirable a local Income Tax might be in theory, in practice it would involve difficulties, complexities, and expenses of collection which make it inadvisable to adopt that plan. Therefore, we ask the House to assent to an alternative method of taxing incomes for local purposes, and I trust when the House comes to consider our proposals of Income Tax for increasing the Income Tax and the Super-tax, they will not refuse to regard it from that point of view as a substitute for the local Income Tax, which has been so widely advocated, and from so many authoritative sources. When the proposals of my right hon. Friend are carried into law there will be voted from the Exchequer each year in aid of local expenditure a sum of about £38,000,000 for the whole of the United Kingdom, and that sum will defray about one-third of the total net annual expenditure of all the local authorities. They will, in future, be deriving two-thirds of their net expenditure from the ratepayers, and one-third will be derived from incomes and from personalty generally through these Grants from the central Exchequer.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say if those figures include the cost of the new services, and will that alter the proportion?

I am counting the whole amount of the Grant to local authorities, which will be about £38,000,000 when the system comes into full operation, and the total net expenditure at the present time from the rates is about £75,000,000. Of course that may be increased.

No, I have not. To be meticulously accurate, it ought to be included in the whole amount of about £100,000,000 per year, but it cannot be estimated now as it is a matter of conjecture for the future, but it is a very trivial circumstance in comparison with the total expenditure of our local authorities. I do not think any hon. Members from either side of the House will demur to this second principle, that personalty ought to contribute in larger proportions than now to local expenditure; and further, I do not expect that they will demur to the conclusion that a local Income Tax is not the best way of securing that contribution. Certainly my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt), and others who have put down Motions in respect to the Second Reading of the Bill, would not, I anticipate, disagree from the policy of the Government in that regard. The next principle which is embodied in the proposals of this Bill is that these matters of national education, of public health, of Poor Law, of the provision of main roads, are not questions of merely local concern, but are questions that affect the nation as a whole, and that the present inequalities between districts are not defensible, and that where you are dealing with these matters, which are of national interest, it cannot be contended that it is just to have those great inequalities of charge on men of equal fortunes according to where they live in this district or in that. The more therefore you pool your local expenditure and defray it from the central Exchequer, the more you attain to a measure of equality in that burden for local purposes which is desirable on grounds of general principle. We propose in this Bill to take a further long step in that direction and to defray a considerably larger proportion of those local charges from the national purse, with due regard to the needs and resources of the localities.

But I submit this to the House, and I trust I shall have the acquiescence of all my hon. Friends here also. If we regard those matters as questions of national concern and not merely local concern from the standpoint of bearing the cost of them, so also we must regard them as questions of national concern, and not merely of local concern, when we come to consider the efficiency with which those services are administered. This House cannot be indifferent to the mode in which the local authorities perform the duties which have been laid upon them by Parliament, and therefore we have included in our proposals a condition which we regard as essential that Parliament, through the various Government Departments, should have the right to demand that those services which are now so largely paid for from the. National Exchequer, shall be performed by the local authorities with proper efficiency. If in any town the population is educated below the proper standard, if the rate of infant mortality is high, if the death-rate generally is high, if questions of public health are neglected, the whole nation is the poorer, and the average of the whole population is, to that extent, lower. Therefore we suggest that the House should place in the hands of Government Departments responsible to itself adequate powers to secure that those services are properly provided. The hon. Member for Dudley (Sir A. Griffith- Boscawen), whom I am glad to see in his place, lent powerful support to this doctrine in the Debate last Thursday on the Local Government Board Estimates when he attacked my Department with much vigour for not having sufficiently pressed the local authorities to perform their duties with regard to the housing of the people, and he said how long are we going to wait on the local authorities, and if we have not got sufficient powers to compel them to do their duties, why do we not get those powers? We propose to ask Parliament in this Bill to give us those powers.

It appears to me the right principle in this matter has been laid down by the County Councils Association, who have suggested in a Memorandum which they have sent to the Local Government Board, that Parliament should not go beyond, and they implied that Parliament should not fall short of what is necessary to secure generally efficient administration without interference with the details of local government. We consider therefore one of the most important portions of this Budget is the effective power which it will give for the first time to Government Departments to secure that in all matters and statutory duties which have been imposed by Parliament upon the local authorities, that it will give to the Local Government Department, to see that those duties are adequately performed, and that they do not fall short of a national standard. I trust here again that my hon. Friends on this side of the House—and I have some hope that hon. Members opposite—will not demur to that principle. Next, but not the least important, we hold the view that if we are lowering the burden on local rates the relief should be given to the rates upon buildings and improvements, and not to the rates upon bare land values, and to that end it is essential that there should be a separate valuation of the land, the bare land, apart from every form of improvement upon it, or of building that has been erected upon the land. I know that this is a proposition which is likely to give rise to keen controversy, and yet I cannot conceive why it is that hon. Members opposite should defend so resolutely our present system of rating.

After having given it some study, it appears to me quite the worst principle of local taxation that the perverse ingenuity of man could have devised. It imposes the severest check upon building and upon all forms of improvement. We adopt the methods of Eastern tax-gatherers. He waits to see some evidence of industry and enterprise and prosperity, and then pounces upon the man and seizes the proceeds. As soon as a man improves his house, his assessment goes up, and he is fined for the crime he has committed against society by improving the buildings in which he carries out his business. As soon as a farmer develops his farm and raises the condition of the soil from a low value to a high value at once Parliament goes to him and says, We will teach you to improve the land and to grow more food for the people! The better you farm your land the heavier your rates should be!" It appears to us the time has fully arrived when we should review fundamentally the principles of local taxation which have come down to us almost unchanged from the time of Queen Elizabeth, and that the day has fully arrived when we should adopt methods of taxation for local purposes which are more consonant with the conditions of civilisation under which we live. We hold, further, the view that a tax upon the bare land does not involve the same economic consequences. The cost of house-room depends mainly upon the cost of building the house, but the rate of land obviously does not depend upon the cost of producing the land. Every economist of repute, from Adam Smith to Ricardo, through Mill, down to Marshall and other modern economists, can be quoted in support of the proposition that a tax upon houses does increase the cost of houses, but that a tax upon bare land does not increase the rent of the land.

We propose, therefore, that the whole of the relief to be given by the new Grants in aid of rates shall go to relief upon houses and improvements. By concentrating in this direction you will secure a far larger relief to the house alone than you could give to the whole hereditament. My right hon. Friend, when introducing the Budget, quoted illustrative figures to show the extent of the relief that would be given in particular localities. But if you take the relief that would be given to houses and improvements alone, you will find that instead of being 8d. 9d. or 10d. in the £, the relief given, so far as the approximate figures that we have enable us to arrive at a result, would be Is. in some cases, Is. 2d. in other cases, Is. 4d. in other cases, and in some particular towns as much as Is. 8d. in the £. It is obvious if you give a relief of Is. 8d. in the £ to the rates on buildings, you give an immense encouragement to the erection of new buildings and the improvement of existing buildings in those localities. That, again, is a principle which we regard as essential to the granting of these new sums in relief of rates. I should like to make it clear to the House, if I may, that it is not made a condition that any new rate upon land values shall be imposed. Our proposals, as embodied in this Bill and in the Revenue Bill, deal not with additional rates, tout with the relief to rates. There is no proposal which the Government have made to the House to render these Grants to local authorities in any degree conditional on the levying of additional rates upon any form of land value.

The right hon. Gentleman has quoted what the effect of this relief will be in certain localities. Will he present a Return giving the figures for the whole country—not merely for the districts to which he has referred, but general figures referring to all parts of the country—in order that we may see for ourselves exactly what the effect in different localities will be?

Such a Return is now in course of preparation, and is being pressed forward as rapidly as may be. But I cannot promise it at a very early date, on account of the difficulty of the classification of roads. A large part of these new Grants will be given to roads of different classes, and until we get a provisional approximate classification, which I hope will not be long, by the Road Board, we cannot give specific figures. Our estimates have necessarily had to be based upon the present classification of roads by local authorities; therefore they have been limited to localities in which it is anticipated that the present classification and the new classification are likely to be not very diverse. But there are some counties where most of the roads are main roads, but where the Road Board certainly would not classify all the roads as first-class roads; and in those counties figures based upon the present classification would not be sufficiently accurate to lay before Parliament. Therefore we are necessarily compelled to wait the collection of further material by the Road Board before we lay this Return. These and other figures are being rapidly collected.

Is it not a fact that the Road Board classification has to do with July, August, and September? Shall we not get relative figures for the whole country before then?

I hope that we shall get a provisional classification before then. It cannot be a final classification, but it will be sufficient to serve as a guide. The final classification is not needed until the Grants come actually to be paid.

I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his promise to present a general return. But I am sure that he will see from the announcement he has just made that there will be very great differences in different parts of the country, and it is obvious that the return cannot be complete until he has the provisional figures in regard to the roads in different parts of the country. That return cannot be given immediately. Are we, therefore, to debate the essential portions of these proposals without being in possession of the figures which are materially and even vitally important?

I cannot quite concur with the right hon. Gentleman that they are essential in principle for the discussion, because the totals are known, and many local authorities have themselves worked out what they anticipate will be their Grants. But I will consider whether, before we come to discuss the part of the Bill dealing with this matter, it is possible to lay on the Table of the House any figures on the understanding that those figures must necessarily be in certain particulars merely provisional. I was on the point that in our view it is essential that before these Grants are given a distinction should be made between the land value and the remainder of the value of the hereditament. Holding the views which the Liberal party have long held in respect to the rating of land values, we cannot consent to the allocation of these new Grants or any part of them in relief of the rates upon land values.

The hon. Member for West St. Pancras (Mr. Cassel) and the hon. Member for the Wilton Division (Mr. C. Bathurst) asked questions in the House to-day to which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said an answer would be given in the course of the Debate. They drew attention to the fact that the wording in the Finance Bill and in the Revenue Bill is not in accord in one particular which, relates to a matter common to both. The Finance Bill says that these Grants shall not be given to local authorities until provision has been made by Parliament for dividing the rateable value of assessable property so as to distinguish the values attributable to the buildings and improvements from the value attributable to the land; while the Revenue Bill empowers the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, not to divide the rateable value, but to collect information with a view to the division of the rateable value so as to distinguish between those two elements. The difference is little more than one of wording; but the view which we hold is that in this year's legislation, in view of the limitation on the time of the House, we should not attempt to accomplish more than is essential for this year; and it is not essential, as a part of the legislation of this year, that provision should actually be made for the division of rateable value between these two assessments. That can be accomplished in the Rating Bill of next year, which will provide for the distinction in rating between the rates upon the houses and buildings and the rates upon the land. What it is essential and indispensable to accomplish this year is that the information should be obtained by the Land Valuation Office to enable that distinction to be made in the Rating Bill. The actual legislation distinguishing between one element and the other in the value can be accomplished in a Clause of an Act of Parliament, but the information which will enable that distinction to be made in actual rating must be collected beforehand, and must take time to collect. Therefore, in the legislation this year it is necessary that power should be given to the Land Valuation Office to collect the information necessary for the purpose.

This is a most important matter, and one that is extremely difficult to follow. It may be stupidity on our part, but I do not see how, under the suggestions of the right hon. Gentleman, which involve the collection of information and not the provision of a new rating scheme, this money is going to reach the pockets of the ratepayers, because you say that the Rating Bill is not to be brought in until next year.

It is not conditional on the passage of the Eating Bill. I agree that the point is an important one, but I was about to say when the right hon. Gentleman interrupted me—which I am sure he does with much reluctance, especially in view of what he said last Thursday—that in the Finance Bill we intend to propose an amendment of the wording in order to make it conform textually with the wording of the Revenue Bill. When the Finance Bill was introduced we had contemplated including Clauses in the Revenue Bill not only to enable this information to be collected, but laying down the principles on which the division should be made. But we came to the conclusion that that would involve Clauses of considerable length and much complexity, and that, as it was unnecessary to ask Parliament to pass them this year—because all that was essential was the collection of information—that distinction between the two values could be effected in the Rating Bill of next year in common with a number of other provisions of a closely analogous kind.

When the right hon. Gentleman speaks of value, does he mean capital value or present rateable value?

The hon. Member knows—none better—that he is now leading me into paths where even the most cautious and skilful pedestrian may find himself in grave difficulties. Certainly the Revenue Bill contemplates the capital value of land having to be obtained for this purpose.

I am sorry to interrupt, but this is rather in the nature of an explanation of a very difficult point than in the nature of an ordinary Second Reading Debate. At Question Time the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House that in the speech immediately to be delivered from that bench it would be explained to us how this division was to be made. That is what we want to know. The right hon. Gentleman now tells us that all we are going to do is to get information as to a particular kind of capital value. That does not tell us how the Government are going to divide rateable value, which is an annual value. What we want to know, and what the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised that the House should be told; was how the Government propose to make this division.

I do not think that my right hon. Friend promised the House that the provisions of the Rating Bill should be explained on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill of this year. The intention is that the rates in future shall be levied in two parts instead of in. one. Instead of having the rate which we now have, which is a rate on the composite hereditament, and includes a rate both upon the land value and upon the buildings and improvements value, in future those two elements will be separated, and we shall have two rates—one upon the land value and the other upon the improvements value. With a view to that separation it is necessary to ascertain what is the annual land value apart from that of the house and improvements; and with a view to obtaining what is the true annual value, you have to take into account in many cases—in many cases they correspond—but in many cases you have to take into account what is the capital land value in order to arrive at the true annual land value. That is the reason why the matter, as my hon. Friend knows full well, is one of the greatest complexity. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Anyone who knows anything of the subject is very familiar with that. It is patent and obvious on the face of it. I am sure that hon. Members opposite have not made that discovery for the first time. They are well aware of the fact that the question of the separation of land value from other values is one which involves very many questions of detail and of difficulty. But, in our view, the provisions which are included in the Revenue Bill are the only provisions which it is necessary to enact this year in order to obtain the information which is essential for the division under the Rating Bill of next year on the lines I have just explained to the House.

Can the right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]—this is an important matter !—tell us how Clause 13 will run with the Amendments he foreshadows?

Really, that is purely a Committee point, a question of the drafting of a Clause; simply two or three words embodied in order to make that conform to the corresponding words in the Revenue Bill. The Amendment will be an exceedingly small one—not one of very great importance. Those, then, are the main principles which are embodied in the Budget of this year, and are dis- tinctive of this year's Finance Bill. To those principles the Government must, of course, adhere. We strongly hold the view that larger Grants should be given to the local authorities, that those Grants should be obtained by additional taxation upon personalty, and that they should be conditional on the efficient performance by the local authority of the statutory duties laid upon them by Parliament; lastly, that the relief given should be a relief given to buildings and improvements, and not a relief to bare land values. I think that to every one of those four propositions my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt), and the other hon. Members who have been acting with him, so far as I understand their views, would accede. The divergence of view which has been expressed has been, not on policy, but rather on procedure. Objection has been raised on their behalf to voting money before its destination is declared. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] As a matter of fact, in this very Finance Bill the destination of the money is declared. Indeed, this Finance Bill differs from the ordinary Finance Bill in the fact that it does include a Schedule such is not usually found in the Finance Bill of the year—a Schedule which definitely allocates to particular local purposes the money which is to be raised by the taxing part of the Bill. But the difficulty which really faces my hon. Friends, I think, arises from the fact that, while its destination is so declared, the allocation of the money raised by the taxes is made dependent upon the fulfilment of certain conditions. That is the real gravamen of their criticism.

The Government have given their full consideration—as naturally they were bound to do—to the representations which have been made to them by so many hon. Members from this quarter of the House. There are certain things in the Finance Bill and in the Revenue Bill which, in our view, should be accomplished this year. In the first place, obviously adequate revenue must be raised to meet the definitely authorised expenditure of the year. In the second place, with respect to the immediate Grants to local authorities this Session, we regard it as in any case necessary that the money to be devoted to the local authorities of the necessitous areas for the purpose of education should this year be contributed to them. The £515,000 for England and Wales, the £71,000 for Scotland, and the Grants also for the feeding of the school children stand in the same category. Those are not Grants which raise any new principle. They are not part of our general scheme for substituting a wholly and entirely new system of local Grants for the Local Taxation Account and other Grants which are made under the existing scheme. We regard it as necessary also that the Clauses in the Revenue Bill which deal with the collection of information on land values should proceed; and, further, in our view, it is very necessary that Parliament this year should lay down the new scheme of Grants in substitution for the old scheme of Grants for local authorities, with the two conditions attached to them—efficiency and relief to improvements only.

The local authorities have waited long for these contributions. If, as has been suggested, Part IV. of the Bill were not passed by Parliament, they would believe that the House of Commons were not treating their representations and their claims with that respectful consideration that they deserved. The money for insurance purposes, which also is not part of the new scheme, is also to be voted this year. After giving the matter the fullest consideration, the Government have come to the conclusion that they will be able to effect all these purposes, and, at the same time, meet the wishes of hon. Members behind them, by a change, not in the policy of our Bill, but in the procedure by which we shall ask Parliament to deal with it. This raises another important consideration. My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham, and those who have been acting with him, have one very powerful ally, even very more powerful than themselves, and that is time. He will not take it amiss, though, if I say that, great as is our respect for him and his colleagues, our respect for that Parliamentary autocrat, time, is even deeper and more profound. Our financial procedure in this House is now ruled by an Act which was passed not long ago. This requires any measure which imposes taxation—those taxes being collected by a Resolution of the House—to be passed into law within a certain definite time. The restrictions of that period are likely to impose much pressure upon the time of the House, if we endeavoured within the interval which is allowed, to pass into law the whole of the Finance Bill and also the Revenue Bill. It is highly desirable, in view of possible contingencies, that this House should not definitely allocate new Grants to the local authorities until we know that there is reasonable prospect of the Revenue Bill, with its Land Valuation Clauses, passing into law.

We have also, of course, to consider the indication that you, Sir, have given to-day, in answer to questions that were put to you, to the effect that it would be preferable—though we understand you to say not indispensable—if Part IV. of the Bill were taken separately from the remainder of the Finance Bill; therefore, the Government have decided to invite the House, after the Second Reading of the Bill, to pass an Instruction which should also include the minor points on which you, Sir, have made reference this afternoon, and to divide the Bill into two parts, the one part dealing with all the provisions relating to the new taxation and the National Debt, and the other part consisting of Part IV. of the Bill, and the Schedules that attach it—that is to say, the parts of the Bill that deal with the new Grants to local authorities. We shall then invite the House this Session to proceed with both these Bills—the two Finance Bills—as the single Finance Bill will then be—and also the Revenue Bill. This alteration of procedure will involve one change which, as President of the Local Government Board I regard with the greatest regret, that it will render it impossible to include in the provision for this year the temporary Grants on the new basis for local authority. The one-third—the four months' Grants to the local authority—could not be included in the Bill of this year if it were divided in the manner I have suggested, for reasons which will be obvious to the House. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] Because the one purpose, or one of the purposes, of so dividing a Bill is to separate the new taxation from the allocation of the Grants to the local authorities, and we regard it as an essential condition that those Grants to the authorities shall be contingent upon the fulfilment of the two conditions which I have expressed, efficiency and the relief being given only to improvements and to buildings.

May I ask whether, under the Bill as it now stands, it is not possible to give that relief without having the new form of rating actually in operation; if so, why cannot that still be done when the Bill is divided into two parts?

Under the Bill, as it now stands, the temporary Grants of this year are conditional Grants, and are conditional on provision being made in Parliament for the ascertainment of information with a view to the division of rates upon land and rates upon improvements and buildings respectively. It is that very condition to which objection is raised. If you divide the Bill into two parts, and make the imposition of taxation not contingent upon the fulfilment of that condition, then either the condition itself must go—and to that we cannot accede—or else the temporary Grants cannot be given this year, with the exception of the very considerable sums that I have mentioned, which are not part of the new system of Grants for education, necessitous areas, the feeding of school children, insurance, and one or two other matters.

In those circumstances, what does the Government propose to do with the money?

5.0 P.M.

That is precisely the point to which naturally I was next proceeding. Having diminished our expenditure by a very considerable sum, obviously it will not be necessary to ask the House to levy increased taxation this year to the extent that was previously anticipated. Therefore my right hon. Friend, in view of these circumstances, will ask the House to impose upon the Income Tax payer one penny less taxation than was previously contemplated It must be clearly understood that this is a postponement, and not a release; it is a reprieval and not an acquittal; and when full Grants come to be paid next year, then it will be essential to restore the rate of taxation which was proposed by my right hon. Friend when he introduced the Bill.

I apologise for interrupting, but I must ask the right hon. Gentleman whether we are to understand that as part of this complete change in the financial proposals of this year the Agricultural Rates Act is to be continued in exactly the same position as now?

The matter is complicated and the right hon. Gentleman has not, I am afraid, explored all its profundities, because had he done so, he would have known that the Agricultural Rates Act is not being interfered with, so far as this year is concerned in any case. The new system of Grants will not come into full operation until the first of April next year, which is the end of the present financial year, and only then will the Agricultural Rates Grant cease to be payable and the new system substituted, so that no difference whatever is made in that regard in the change I have just announced to the House.

It is whether the Income Tax will be collected to-morrow morning at 1s. 3d. or 1s. 4d.?

The hon. Member is not entitled to interrupt hon. Gentlemen in the middle of their speeches. They occasionally give way, but they are not bound to give way, and the Rules of the House do not provide for that at all. The hon. Member will have plenty of opportunities of putting his questions later on.

I know I have put a very considerable strain upon the patience of the House, but I have now come to an end. The change of procedure which on behalf of the Government I have intimated to the House, will have the effect—and I may sum it up in a few sentences—of enabling Parliament to enact this year, in a separate Finance Bill, the new scheme of the larger Grants for the local authorities in substitution of the present scheme of subventions. That will come into operation after the close of the present financial year. It will maintain the conditions as to the efficient performance of their duties, and as to relief being given only to buildings and improvements which are embodied in the Finance Bill of this year. By means of the Revenue Bill it will enable information to be. obtained by the Land Valuation authorities with a view to a division of assessment between land values and improvement values, and with the sole exception of the operation of the temporary Grants proposed for this year, it will enable the policy propounded by my right hon. Friend when he introduced his Budget, to be fully accomplished.

I need hardly say that, speaking for myself and my Friends, we very cordially welcome the announcement made by the President of the Local Government Board. I dare say the House will allow me to state briefly and generally the views we hold, and the reason why we have taken the action we have in this matter.

On a point of Order. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, if the hon. Member moves this Amendment, we shall be limited to that Amendment, or whether the discussion on the Amendment will range over all the subjects introduced by the President of the Local Government Board?

The moving of the Amendment will not have a limiting effect. The House is given the option either to take the Second Reading or the Amendment. The House is entitled to full discussion in either alternative.

Perhaps I had better say at once, in order that there may be no misconception, that after the speech made by my right hon. Friend, it is quite unnecessary for me to move my Amendment. After what he has stated I do not think it necessary to move my Amendment. I do not want any misconception about it. I think we have been very fairly met. I think it is quite impossible to avoid being struck by the remarkable way in which national expenditure has gone up in recent years. If you look at any of the last five or six or seven years and compare it with the present year, leaving the Post Office expenditure out of consideration—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"]—there is a great increase of national expenditure amounting to something like 40 per cent.—over £53,000,000. Of that expenditure £20,000,000 has gone to increase in naval and military armaments. A great many hon. Members on the opposite side of the House thoroughly approve of that, but on this side I do not think there is a single hon. Member who looks upon it otherwise than as wasteful, and a great many of us do not believe there is any necessity for it all. And I want to tell my right hon. Friends on the Government Bench that year after year as the Financial Bill comes round, so long as expenditure on armaments remains at the figures it is to-day, they must expect to have an unpleasant time from some of their supporters. A great many of us will vote no tax willingly while you put £80,000,000 of expenditure on armaments. The rest of the increased expenditure, £33,500,000, has gone to social reforms. I am not going to criticise that in the least, but I want to make this observation, that every single one of them is costing a great deal more than we were originally led to believe they would. That is a very unsatisfactory feature. No person brought up in the atmosphere of commerce can possibly look upon it as a satisfactory thing that an enterprise, however good in itself, should end by costing a very great deal more than its promoters thought originally it would cost. It is no answer to say that the enterprise is a very good one. That is no answer at all. It may not be worth the money, and you may be induced to vote for a certain project because it is worth a shilling, though you would not dream of doing so if you were told it was going to cost twice that sum. That applies to public affairs quite as much as private affairs. I know it is usual to say that the right hon. Gentleman is the villain of the piece, and that it is all his doing, but when I had an opportunity of talking to my right hon. Friend he has generally said that the House as a whole is more responsible than he is himself, and I must say I think there is a great deal of justification in the right hon. Gentleman's retort. Any one of us who has been any length of time in this House, even the few years I have been here, cannot fail to be struck by the fact that on every conceivable occasion hon. Members get up in every corner of the House and press for public expenditure on their own project.

There is not one of us who is not to blame, and, of course, the fact is you get what is called a 200-million Budget, and then we all pull wry faces over it. I mention this to the House because it is quite plain, if we are going to grumble about taxation, we ought to try and regulate expenditure and be rather more careful in protecting the taxpayers, and also be more careful in our expenditure. In my opinion national ex- penditure has increased more rapidly than national wealth and income. I think that is obvious, because, if it were not so, it would not be necessary to continually impose new taxes. The yield of the existing taxation should meet the growing national expenditure. I am not a pessimist about this thing. I have not come down to the House to represent that we are overspending our national income. I do not believe it. But I say that we find ourselves in a position at which expenditure is growing more rapidly than income, and this is the time we should look carefully to what we are doing and seriously consider our position. It is not a fatal position, but it is one of seriousness, and it is dangerous, and it is a moment for care. What is our position at the present moment? As a nation we have been enjoying for two or three years, for various causes which it is unnecessary to enter into, very great national prosperity. People have had incomes in excess of anything before—at least, those engaged in trade—and beyond anything they dared to hope for. But the incomes made in the last two or three years are not permanent incomes lasting for ever. They are incomes made in two or three years, and we have no reason to suppose that national income will remain at the same high rate that it has been in the last two or three years. If I am right in the view that we are on the verge of less good trade, then it is quite clear that this is not the moment for making a great increase in our expenditure.

One of the most dangerous positions we can possibly get into from the point of view of extravagant expenditure is to vote large sums of money into the Exchequer for objects not approved by Parliament. We felt convinced that that state of affairs was bound to arrive under the proposals of the Finance Bill; but before going into that matter as I hope to do, let me explain why that position is bound to arise. May I say this, speaking for myself and my Friends, we do not object to the taxation at all. We have always advocated on a great many platforms that direct taxation should be substituted for indirect, and that those people with the greatest amount of money and wealth were the people who ought to pay. I have said so up and down the country, I do not know whether I have ever said it in this House before, but, at any rate, I say it now; that is my view. But may I say to hon. Members on the Labour Benches below the Gangway, who hold that view strongly, that one of the reasons held by political economists why you should impose direct rather than indirect taxation is this, that the direct taxpayer would know what he was paying, and that he would move heaven and earth to have the country conducted more economically, and that is as true to-day as thirty or forty years ago, and people must not object if, as the result of a certain policy, the direct taxpayer takes a good deal of interest in keeping down national expenditure, and seeing he gets more value for his money. In fact, I am not at all sure that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not on a public occasion stated that it was the rich people in the State who clamoured for armaments, and then complained of having to pay for them. I am satisfied some people, at any rate, frequently put forward that argument, and I think it is a very sound reason why direct taxes should be put on. Some of the rich persons naturally feel that the lesson is superfluous in their case. Now let me turn to Part IV., which authorises the expenditure. We do not object to a further contribution by personalty towards the assistance of the rates, or towards the assistance of those charges which are now placed upon the revenue. I think these proposals can hardly be described as otherwise than contentious, and though the principle may be accepted, the details are highly contentious. So is the scheme on which they depend, that is the scheme of separation of site values. I say these are very contentious and complicated, and want a thorough and full discussion before they are passed into law. I am not quite sure—and I do not know anybody who knows—whether this expenditure under Part IV. is to be additional or not. At one time we are told that it is to be in relief of rates, but if you read the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the introduction of the Budget, you will find more than a suspicion of a hint that this is really to be given to local authorities to institute new services. The President of the Local Government Board spoke just now about more elbow room for local authorities. That may be a very good policy, but, if so, it is no relief of the rates. Part IV. is either a relief of the rates at the expense of the taxpayer, or it is the taxpayer paying for more services, but it cannot be both, and it ought not to be represented to us as both.

I saw in a newspaper which supports my party—though I do not know that it has always been favourable to myself—that one of our offences was, that we had not recognised that this is not new expenditure, and that our movement had nothing to do with economy. I believe I am right in saying that this money is not ultimately intended to go in relief of the rates. I believe that if hon. Members vote for Part IV., under the impression that they are voting for relief of the rates, they will find themselves "sold." I know that is a matter of opinion and anticipation. My right hon. Friend said something about time which is more powerful than any of us. That was one of the reasons why we wanted time, and referred in our communications to the powerful effects time was likely to have. In this connection, I think, it ought to be considered what the dates actually are. If you look at the Gibson Bowles Act and look at the Resolutions passed by the House, I think you will see that in order to comply with the law the Bill, so far as it relates to Income Tax, ought to be passed by the 6th of August, or four months after the date on which the Income Tax Resolution expressly takes effect, and on which it did actually take effect. That is the view which I put before the House. Does any single human being believe that it is possible to pass the Finance Bill as it stands, plus the Revenue Bill, through both Houses of Parliament before the 6th of August? No person can believe that that is a possible Parliamentary achievement. My hon. Friends and myself had that in our minds when we made our protest. We felt perfectly certain that the conditions of the Revenue Bill could not be achieved before it was necessary to pass the Finance Bill into law. That is the view we have always held. I am very glad to have the opportunity of stating that openly, so that hon. Members shall know one of the things that was incur minds. We felt that if the Government procedure went on we were bound to end up with an Exchequer which was a great deal too full, and no other alternative was possible.

There is another serious objection to the procedure that is proposed. Whatever the exact date at which the Finance Bill ought to become law, the discussion, both of the Revenue Bill and the Finance Bill, must be seriously cramped by time. May I remind the House that in order to satisfy hon. Members that the money should not be voted unless the conditions of the Revenue Bill were achieved, we have been told that the Finance Bill would be kept under the control of the House until the Revenue Bill in its passage through another place is secured. If the House is to have an effective control of the Finance Bill, you cannot begin the discussion of the Committee stage until the Revenue Bill has been passed into law. That is an absolutely impossible and very inconvenient procedure if it were possible. Look at it from a Parliamentary point of view. Suppose you attempt to pass these two highly contentious measures in a very short space of time, you are holding out a bait and temptation for obstruction which it might be difficult for people to resist. Then you are going to have the guillotine and Closure to force your Bills through. Is it conceivable to have a worse procedure than an attempt to reform the relations between the Imperial Exchequer and local authorities on the basis of a combination of obstruction and the guillotine? You could not devise a more inconvenient method in matters which do not arouse party controversy, which are admitted to be difficult and complicated, and on which it is admitted that very different views are held in different quarters of the House. Therefore, we cordially welcome the course that has been announced by the President of the Local Government Board, and on the understanding that the Government will adhere to the declaration they have made, we shall certainly support them in carrying through their amended and revised programme. As regards next year, I am not without hope that the very strong opinions expressed on this side of the House, and the determination which a good many hon. Gentlemen have shown, may enable the Government to put such pressure on the different spending Departments that they will find themselves next year in a position to get through all their commitments towards the local authorities without asking the taxpayer to put his hands into his pockets any more than he is already going to do. I cordially welcome the statement of the Government, and I shall now support the Second Reading of the Bill.

I am sure that nobody will quarrel with the hon. Gentleman for the course he has taken, and I may say that we have all listened to his speech with great interest. He is the victor of the occasion in more ways than one, and he is to be congratulated in a two-fold degree. He has succeeded in evading or avoiding those difficulties attendant upon Debates here which often make some of our most eminent orators sit for hours and days anxiously hoping to catch Mr. Speaker's eye. The hon. Gentleman placed an Amendment upon the Paper which secured for him the immediate naming by Mr. Speaker, and gave him priority in the Debate of which he has made most admirable use. At the same time, I must say that he obtained that priority in virtue of an Amendment which he does not now think it necessary to move. That is the first matter on which I wish to congratulate the hon. Member. I also wish to congratulate him upon another fact. I am sure the situation to which I shall refer must have occurred to every hon. Member who listened to the remarkable disclosure which fell from the President of the Local Government Board a few minutes ago. We all remember from our earliest days the interesting story in which a certain Colonel and an opossum played prominent parts. The hon. Gentleman opposite has brought it down out of the tree without having to fire his gun. I most heartily congratulate him upon the success which he has achieved, for he and his Friends have really wrought more havoc in the course of a few hours than has ever been wrought by any hon. Member or combination of hon. Members in this House before. The other day the newspapers which support the Government and the hon. Gentlemen opposite were talking of the great Budget of 1914, which was the successor historically and by reputation of the great People's Budget of 1909, another remarkable moment in the history of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. The hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt) appears on the scene, borrows one of those wooden guns we used to hear so much about, but does not even trouble to load it—he does not even point the gun at the Government—and down they come surrendering at discretion without even waiting for the hon. Gentleman's speech.

What is the result? It is that, this great Budget of 1914, which was to make history, is crumbling already, and we are bound to ask what is the position at this moment? I will say something about the position of the local taxation question later on; but how do we stand as regards the Budget? We are told by the President of the Local Government Board that there is an entire abandonment of that part of the Budget, and of that expenditure which gave so much offence to hon. Gentlemen opposite. We understood from him that while the Income Tax in this Budget is put at 1s. 4d., one penny of the Income Tax will be remitted which will be unnecessary, and the money not being wanted for this particular purpose it will not be collected. But is there any law in this House, and are we ever to be governed by laws and traditions in regard to our finance? The Government have openly trampled on the old Parliamentary practice of this House by the form of their Bill, and now they are to-day collecting the Income Tax at a rate for which they have no Parliamentary authority from the House. No doubt the Chancellor of the Exchequer will tell me that it will be quite easy for him in Committee on the Bill to alter 1s. 4d. to 1s. 3d. Yes, Sir, but what is he going to do in those cases where the Income Tax has already been paid? As the Chancellor of the Exchequer knows full well, a great part of our Income Tax is paid, not by the owner of the income, but it is paid before the income reaches the individual. There is no doubt that up to this moment all the days have gone the object of which was the passing of the Resolution on which the Income Tax is founded, and that object is to enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take advantage of any increase, if there is to be an increase. You have been collecting on that basis, and you have no authority to do so, and even your temporary authority under the Resolution you have lost by abandoning your proposal and altering your Income Tax. Under the Government scheme in this Bill it was proposed to hand over certain sums to the local authorities conditional upon a new system of rating being brought into existence. In this way a sum—I do not know how much out of the £9,000,000, but I suppose I am not exaggerating if I say that it would be about half—was to be handed to the local authorities on the condition that they accepted a new rating system; and on the same calculation you were, in my judgment, guilty of a grave injustice in your original proposals, because you undertook to hand to Ireland a lump sum of some six or seven hundred thousand pounds to which no conditions at all were attached. How does the Irish Grant stand now? Are you still going to Grant the same sum to Ireland, although you have withdrawn several millions from Great Britain? Or are you going to abandon the whole of your Irish proposals in the same way as you have abandoned your English proposals?

We seriously considered, my Friends and I, a few moments ago, when listening to the President of the Local Government Board, whether we ought not to rise immediately after him and move the adjournment of the Debate, and I do not think that our most vehement opponents on the Benches opposite would have criticised us honestly if we had done so. I am perfectly certain that, if a Chancellor of the Exchequer representing the party with which I have the honour to act, having been in power at the time, had torn up his Budget as the President of the Local Government Board has to-day torn up the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Liberal Party would not have allowed us to continue the Debate. They would have insisted upon an adjournment in order that they might carefully, and with full time, consider the wholly altered conditions. We did not take that course because we thought, on the whole, that it was better to proceed, and, if possible, state our view and our case for further information at once. The time at our disposal, unfortunately, is very limited, the Government having run this out to the last possible moment. They have allowed themselves, as the hon. Member well said, far too short time to carry this Bill in ordinary circumstances. If it were an ordinary Finance Bill with an ordinary Budget I should still say that to ask us to read it a Second Time on the 22nd of June, knowing that it has got to become law, and pass both Houses of Parliament by 5th August, is to give this House far too short time to consider this great financial proposal, but, as it is, linked up with these new proposals, the time at our disposal is altogether insufficient. Therefore, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Bonar Law) and my right hon. Friend who was Chancellor of the Exchequer [Mr. Chamberlain) both felt that the proper course for us to take was to proceed with the Debate at once.

The circumstances are extraordinary. Your Budget is abandoned. It was obviously unnecessary for the hon. Gentleman to move his Amendment, because he had won his victory without having to do so; but the result of his victory is that the whole of your scheme has practically been torn up. Your scheme, roughly speaking, was to introduce an entirely new system of rating in this country, and on the condition that was introduced certain money was to find its way into the ratepayers' pockets. I have asked about the Income Tax, and I hope that I shall have an answer. I have asked about the Irish Grant, and I hope that I shall have an answer. I asked the President of the Local Government Board, while he was speaking, a question to which he gave an answer which was not satisfactory. I asked what effect these changes would have upon the Agricultural Rates Act? I did not gather from his answer that the Government themselves quite understand. He pointed out, as is quite true, that the Agricultural Rates Act does not in itself, under your late proposals, come to an end until April, but you have got to say to-day, as the result of tearing up one-half of your scheme, what you are going to do under the Agricultural Rates Act in the future. Are you going to leave matters undisturbed? These are answers we must have.

The President of the Local Government board followed the line which has been followed consistently on that side, and which has caused half the difficulty and half the confusion in which we are placed. I am confident that hon. Gentlemen opposite know as little of the practical effect and the real working of these Budget proposals as we do. They have been, the right hon. Gentleman told us, examined by certain local authorities who have come to conclusions about them. Yes, but what Clause or paragraph has invariably been in the reports of these local authorities? They have said, "It is impossible for us to be sure what we are considering because so much of it is vague." The President of the Local Government Board devoted a great part of his speech to demonstrating certain facts which nobody disputes. Nobody disputes, for instance, the desirability of social reform or the desirability of taxing the rich for the benefit of the poor, if you can do it. All these things are admitted by everybody, provided you can do them fairly and justly; but we want to know how, under your scheme, you propose that the relief you say you are going to give to the ratepayers is to find its way into the pockets of the ratepayers. It is quite easy—we have seen it this year—for a Government to come down to the House of Commons and say that they are going to raise immense new revenue, but raising the money is only a part, a small part, of the work of dealing with local taxation, and what you ought to do—and what the President of the Local Government Board wholly failed to do to-day—is to show that under your system the relief which you are going to give will really pass into the pockets of the overburdened ratepayers. The President of the Local Government Board in his speech to-day proved nothing of the kind, and I concur in what the hon. Gentleman said and believe, even if your scheme had stood and you had gone on with the whole of your programme, that none of this money would have found its way into the pockets of the ratepayers for the relief of the burdens under which they are now suffering.

I want to say a word from our point of view about the general position. There is no dispute, as I said a moment ago, as to these general principles. We all want to see social reform. We are all aware social reform is impossible without a certain expenditure of money. We are all in favour of placing the taxes upon the strongest backs. Some of us differ as to the methods by which you find the strongest backs. Some of us think that unless you are careful you burden the weak when you really mean to burden the strong; but we are agreed that this expenditure is necessary, and I disagree with the hon. Gentleman and his Friends only in one point in the whole of his speech. He criticised very strongly the expenditure upon armaments, and I understood him to say that so long as that expenditure stands at anything like its present figure, he and his Friends would not give the Government their support.

I said that, as long as it remained at that figure, the Government might expect a great deal of difficulty in getting their Friends up to the point of supporting them.

I see. What the hon. Gentleman said was that there would be many critics, but that they would limit themselves to criticism.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer made a great speech in the country on Saturday, and, as usual, he was very inaccurate in his description of the motives and actions of his political opponents. He entirely misrepresented our attitude on this particular question. He said that we were crying out because we had to find this money, and that most of it went to the Navy and the Army. He knows perfectly well that is a complete misrepresentation of the attitude and actions of my hon. Friends and myself. We agree with the hon. Gentleman, whatever may be one's criticism as regards the method of finding the money, or the purposes to which that money is to be devoted, that the first duty of this House is to see that the expenditure of public money is safeguarded in the most vigorous manner. We maintain, as we have endeavoured to show before in previous Debates, that the whole relations of the Exchequer to our public Departments have been changed grievously for the worse by the policy which the present Chancellor of the Exchequer has adopted. It is not necessary for a man to have sat in Cabinets to be able to imagine what the procedure is as between Ministers with regard to public expenditure, but I think that the experience of those who have sat in Cabinets is valuable, and I am sure nobody who has ever sat in a Cabinet will dispute the accuracy of what I am going to say. The position and the fundamental and primary duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to sit as a censor upon the expenditure of every other Department. Under the old system that happened. Colleagues of the Chancellor competed for a share in the public purse. Each one believed in the excellence of his own legislation, and in the need for the money for which he asked and which he demanded; but under the old system the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in a position of absolute independence. He was not responsible for expenditure; he was responsible only for supervision of expenditure and collection of revenue. You have seen, as the hon. Gentleman who preceded me told the House, an enormous increase in your public expenditure. He reminded us that the difference between the Chancellor's first year of office and to-day is some £55,000,000. Out of that, I think he said, some £20,000,000 odd go for armaments.

Twenty million pounds goes for armaments, leaving £35,000,000 for other purposes. I am quoting the figures which the hon. Gentleman gave, and which I think are approximately accurate. That is the expenditure which has to be found to-day, and the hon. Gentleman was absolutely correct when he went on and said that of the balance the greater part has gone in social reform. Yes, and under what Minister have these enormous sums been spent? Under the control and the administration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. Now I ask the House. Is it reasonable to expect, when you turn a Department into both a spending and controlling Department, that the Minister can have the same influence and control over his colleagues as he had before? Is it possible? What happens in these ordinary discussions of finance in the Cabinet? Very much like other discussions where these things have to be managed by a body of men. You have to discuss them generally, and you have always to beat down some of the demands. You have ultimately to decide between those that are most pressing and most desirable and those that, for want of public money, must for the time being stand aside. That was the old attitude of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was the attitude of every Chancellor of the Exchequer with whom I ever served. How can it be the attitude now? The hon. Gentleman reminded the House that under two great social reform questions—old age pensions and the Insurance Act—there has been an enormous increase of expenditure. How could the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he were an angel from heaven—and I need hardly assure the Committee I do not think he is—how on earth could he possibly have that control over public expenditure when he himself is responsible for the expenditure in the country under two heads—how, I ask, could he possibly have that control which was enjoyed by his predecessor? What has been the result? The result has been that the expenditure has been steadily growing, and we are entitled, before we accede to your demands and before we are asked to express approval or disapproval of your methods, to ask this House to affirm absolutely the necessity for strict and rigorous economy. I should like to quote in this connection some remarkable words written by Mr. Gladstone a great many years ago, which show how important it is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be solely the controller of expenditure and not the administrator. Mr. Gladstone wrote these words, under very different conditions, in the year 1863:—

The same thing applies, as the hon. Gentleman said, to social reform. He referred briefly to the enormous increase both in old age pensions and insurance. I am a hearty supporter of old age pensions. I spoke many times on the subject when the Bill was in the House of Commons, and I am not going to say a word against it now. But I think anybody who has taken any trouble to follow the administration of the Old Age Pensions Act and of the National Insurance Act in the country will agree that the hasty, ill-considered way in which these two Bills were rushed through this House, without sufficient consideration, has resulted in an enormous and unexpected increase of expenditure, much of which ought to have been avoided. Is it not almost incredible that in connection with old age pensions we were told by the Prime Minister that the sum needed would never exceed £6,000,000, whereas the expenditure under that head has already exceeded£12,000,000. In every Department of your public work you have the same result. You have an enormous increase of expenditure, due either to legislation hastily passed or to want of control on the part of the one Minister of the Crown whose duty it is to control. There was another view laid down, with which I entirely agree. It has been said it is desirable to tax the rich for the benefit of the poor. That is a most admirable sentiment. I have heard it given utterance to on many occasions in this House. But how does it work out? You have undoubtedly proposed in this Budget to add very much to the burden upon property of various kinds, and especially upon property connected mainly with land. It is often said here that when you have been doing these things in old days people have foretold there would be trouble and disaster, and yet it has never come. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] Very well. That is cheered by an hon. Gentleman opposite who, I am quite sure, has not taken much trouble to investigate the facts, or he would not have given voice to that cheer. I am going now to give a simple fact as to which I challenge contradiction. Throughout the whole country there has been a steady diminution in the employment upon our agricultural estates of various classes of labour. A comparatively short time ago one would have found on almost every country estate a very considerable number of men employed in the garden, or in a forestry, or in various other departments, and it is the almost universal experience that the number of these men is falling every day. Whom does this hit? It does not hit the rich man. He may be sorry to see weeds growing where formerly there were none. He may be sorry to see less care taken of his garden, but this really hits the working man who looks to get employment of this kind in his old age. Where are these men going? They are almost invariably emigrating either to our own Oversea Dominions or to America. Is not that proof of the ill effects of your system of taxing the rich for the benefit of the poor when one result of it has been to send out of the country many of our very best men whom we ought to keep here.

Again, I believe that your Death Duty system is one which, under the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, is being carried to a very unjust point—I might say almost to the point of breaking. When I said a few words on the Second Reading of the Budget, I referred to what was repeatedly stated by the late Sir William Harcourt, when he first brought in the Bill. I have studied carefully his speeches, and I am convinced that he never contemplated the Death Duties being raised to the point to which they have been raised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He often said that he fixed them at what he considered a moderate amount, because he was anxious that, where possible, provision should be made to meet them by insurance. I venture to say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in raising the duties as he has done has inflicted a great injustice, not as between owners of different classes of property, but as between owners of the same class of property. I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he had considered what would be the effect on insurance? I have some figures here on the subject, figures relating to an estate of £62,500, which brings it within the new charge. We will take the cases of two men in possession of an estate valued at £62,500, one man being aged twenty-five and the other man sixty. The man of twenty-five can insure for £84 a year—quite a sufficient burden to place on anybody who has other charges and expenses to meet, and whose only income is the one available from an estate of this sort. How about the justice of your burden when I point out that the man of the age of sixty, on whom you are laying exactly the same burden, has to pay over £300 a year in order to insure his successors against the Death Duties?

When you impose a burden as unjust as this you are almost driving people to that very kind of evasion which you are seeking to avoid. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is trying to avoid evasion by bringing into his net all those who have foreign investments. I am not going to say whether or not that policy is right. I am not going to make any reference to it beyond this, that you may get taxation out of them, you may be able to catch these foreign investments and get your Income Tax upon them, but you are not doing anything to stop what has been the result of your taxation during recent years, you are doing nothing to keep that money in this country, available for this country, fructifying for this country, and for the benefit of the people of this country. On the contrary, you are making your burden so heavy and so unjust that you are compelling men to try themselves and to employ other people's brains to find some method by which burdens so unjust may be shared with others or avoided altogether. That is the very worst result that can accrue from a system of imposing taxation, because if there is one thing more than another you want to carry with you, it is the mind of the people as regards the justice of your taxation. Nobody likes to pay taxes, nobody likes paying rent, but everybody feels that these charges must be met, and all they ask is that the incidence should be just. Would anybody contend that the incidence of a charge such as that I have just described is just, when it imposes so much heavier a burden on the man who has the lesser prospect of life, and therefore the lesser chance of enjoying the property?

6.0 P.M.

I come now to that part of your Budget which only exists in part. How exactly it does exist, after the speech of the President of the Local Government Board, I do not know. We heard some very remarkable things in the early part of his speech. He told us we did not want a new rating system this year. It is quite true, he said, we have got in our Bill language to which we must adhere. I do not know why, and I shall be interested to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, why we must adhere to their proposals for a new rating system. The President of the Local Government Board told us that what they want this year is information. Of course, if that be all, it may no doubt be urged that we might leave till next year the discussion of the question. But I do think we are entitled to point out that, in our view your proposals are not going to meet the demands which it is proposed to create. To begin with, how do you treat this question? You treat it as if a great privilege and boon were being conferred upon the ratepayers. It is nothing of the kind. Even the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself admitted, in a speech which he made, that this action is taken in recognition of a long overdue debt. This ought to be an attempt to readjust things as between ratepayers and taxpayers and also between the two different classes of ratepayers. It is nothing of the kind. As we under- stand it, the Government propose that there shall be certain Grants made if a certain system of land valuation is adopted. The President of the Local Government Board, who spoke to us at considerable length on the question just now, told us that the Government's attempt was to make personalty contribute to realty. You are not going to make personalty contribute to realty by taking so much money out of the Income Tax and Death Duties and contributing it to the relief of rates. I wonder that the Government have not profited by our own experience. We have been through this mill ourselves. In 1888 we initiated the present system, and we had to deal with this very question. The Chancellor of the Exchequer found the money and provided so many millions in his Budget which was to go in aid of local rates. That was not the difficulty which confronted Parliament and that was not the difficulty which led to a variety of changes in the Government's proposals. The difficulty was not in providing the money, but in seeing that the allocation of the money was so arranged that it went into the right pockets and in the right proportions. Under the Government's proposals there is no evidence of any kind that that will be the result. Not only have you to adjust the balance between realty and personalty, but there is another injustice which you ought to adjust—that is, the unfairness of the weight of the burden as between the different classes of realty. Upon that question there has hitherto been, to a very large extent, complete agreement between all those interested in rating questions. No doubt it is true there have always been some who have urged that you should look at the rating question solely from the point of view of the amount of the rate—that is to say, where in one case the rates amount to 11s. in the £, in another to 5s., and in another to 2s. 6d., that relief should be given where the rates are highest. That is to lose sight altogether of one important branch of the subject.

I know that the hon. Member for Stockport holds that view, but he knows that it is contested by many who share his political views. I saw some hon. Members opposite sitting on the benches opposite earlier in the day who hold the view that you should not be governed by the amount of the rate paid, but by the direct- ness or remoteness of the relief received. Those are questions which certainly ought to be considered in connection with any attempt we make to deal with the rating question. I am not quite sure whether that part of the Government's Bill remains. Is it proposed that the whole of Part IV. is to remain under the changes which have been announced?. How are the Government going to effect their changes? Are they going to pass Part IV. on to the Revenue Bill which deals with rating?

Part IV. will become a separate Bill. Our proposal is that the Finance Bill should be divided into two parts, the Finance Bill proper being Finance (No. 1) Bill, and the other will be Finance (No. 2) Bill, or whatever the title may be.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer has been good enough to answer my question. It comes to this, that you take a certain amount of money and you then put all the proposals for the rearrangement of rating into a totally different Bill. I do not in the least know when that Bill will be introduced or passed.

I am afraid I have not made my meaning clear. The proposal is to follow what is generally proposed in regard to almost every other Bill in this House, namely, that it should be an Instruction to the Committee to divide the Bill into two parts—of course, there will be no First and Second Beading, because they will have already been taken—both of them will be considered in Committee separately and reported separately, and they will become separate Bills from the moment the Instruction is carried.

I quite see that I was wrong in saying that a separate Bill will be introduced. I understand that the Bill will be divided for the purposes of the Committee stage onwards. But is the third Bill, the Bill which is to do the work in regard to rating, likely to find a place on the Statute Book this year or even next year? I think anybody can answer that question, especially if he listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt). It is obvious, in these circumstances, that we are going to sit until Christmas. Everybody who has spoken has regarded the Bill as highly contentious. It raises most contentious and difficult questions. To suggest that a Bill of that kind is going to pass into law this Session, unless we sit until Christmas or later, is to make a suggestion which nobody who knows anything about the business of this House will entertain for a moment. It is a proposal to alter the whole system of rating. Will the President of the Local Government Board, who is the Minister responsible in this case, suggest that a Bill which did not pass into law until Christmas—a Bill entirely altering and reforming the system of rating—could be brought into effect within six months of the succeeding year? He knows perfectly well that there is not a rating authority in the country who would not resent such an attempt on the part of Parliament, and resent it successfully. He knows it would be impossible to create an entirely new system, superseding local authorities altogether, and make it effective within six months. The announcement the Government made to-day means that they are practically abandoning their real proposals for dealing with the system of rating.

And I rejoice that it should be so, because I think they were monstrously unjust. As I understood them, the Government proposed to create a sixth value. We have five already, and they propose to create another and they propose to do it by wholly superseding the local authorities. The President of the Local Government Board in his speech talked about what local authorities expected from the Government, and he said it was their duty to help and to listen to their demands and that they would be right to grant them. He gave us an admirable instance of the way in which the Government listened to the suggestions of local authorities. He quoted the Council of County Councils who, he said, had sent a report to the Local Government Board, in which they expressed the opinion that the local authorities should not be asked to go beyond what was thought right, and he said, of course, it is impossible that they should fall short of that. That is exactly the reverse of what they said.

I do not think I am. If the right hon. Gentleman says I am inaccurate I will withdraw what I said. It is not of real importance, and it does not affect the general line of my argument. The Government are going to deal with the system of rating under their proposals by a complete abolition of the powers of local authorities in regard to taxation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer shakes his head. In the stress of work which has fallen upon him he has not been able to give enough time to the question. When I made some remarks on a previous occasion, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, "You yourself proposed to do the same thing in the Assessment Bill you brought in years ago." There is no more comparison between the proposals for which I was responsible nine years ago and those of the Chancellor of the Exchequer than there is between chalk and cheese. What did I propose to do? I proposed to transfer the powers of assessment to the county councils. I proposed that with the county councils the surveyor of taxes should sit, in order that there should be greater uniformity. What do the Government now propose? They practically propose that there shall be a transfer of all valuation work from the local authorities to the Land Valuation Department. They do not propose to send down officials to sit with the local authorities, and they do not propose to get the benefit of local knowledge and experience, but to supersede the local authorities altogether and take out of their own hands the work they have been doing for years and have done well. The President of the Board of Education shakes his head and the Chancellor of the Exchequer does the same, from which I assume they mean that I am wrong. I can only say that is the view taken by every local authority whose report I have read.

It is certainly not my intention to deprive local authorities of their powers.

I know nothing about intentions. We are not concerned here with intentions but with the proposals of the Government. If we are wrong in the constructions we put them upon, all I can say is that the same construction has been placed upon them by every local authority whose report I have seen. I am at a loss to understand why the right hon. Gentleman challenges my statement, because that will undoubtedly be the result of what they are doing. Do they propose, under their changes, that the power should be transferred to the Land Valuation Department; and do they propose that the valuations in future shall be made by the Land Valuation Department?

The Government have made no proposals at all at this moment in the matter. The right hon. Gentleman has denounced very vigorously our proposals, but our proposals have not yet come into existence. They will be in the Eating Bill.

The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to say that, because I do not think he himself quite knows—certainly the House of Commons does not—what are the proposals. As to the result, there can be no doubt at all; otherwise, what was the meaning of the speeches made on the Second Reading of the Budget or of the speeches made in the country? We have been told times out of number that the ultimate result is to be economy and more efficiency in regard to valuations, because we are going to see a great Government Department do this work. The President of the Local Government Board is hardly fair to me. Are the Government going to do that? Is it their intention or is it not? If it is not their intention, then what do they propose to do, and why have they talked about it? Do they propose to leave assessment committees in undisputed possession of the powers they now possess and to do the work they are now doing? These are two very fair questions to put to the Government. They say that my interpretation is incorrect, and that I am basing my criticism upon speeches, and not upon the Bill; but it is not unreasonable on my part to take their own interpretation, as put in their own speeches, and I am willing to accept their statements without modification. If my original contention is incorrect, that you are going to transfer this work of valuation hitherto done by local authorities to a central authority, what are you going to do with your local assessment bodies? Are they to be in undisturbed possession of their powers, and, if that is the case, what is the reform in the assessment about which you talk so much and which has formed the centre of every speech you have made? I may be more stupid than any Member of the Government, but that is the result of the speech we heard to-day from the President of the Local Government Board. As the result of answers which have been given to questions that I have put to Ministers, I am in hopeless confusion as to what the proposals of the Government really are or what is the plan that they are asking us to adopt. I believe the swollen proportions of the Budget are largely due to extravagance which could have been avoided if there had been proper supervision. I believe that in your method of getting your taxation you are not really hitting the rich but the poor man. I hope we shall hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer at an early stage of the Debate a full statement of what the position now actually is.

I hope he will not forget to answer the question I put to him earlier in my speech in regard to that Income Tax which is already collected and with regard to the authority under which they propose to collect in future, and I hope he will not forget to answer the question as to the Grant to Ireland. We are entitled to know to-morrow whether you are going to retain your Grant in the present proposal or whether you propose to reconsider it in face of the drastic alterations which you have made in your Bill. As regards your local rating proposals, I have endeavoured to elicit them from the Government without success. I believe the ultimate object you have in view is the supersession of the local authorities and the establishment in their place of a central Department. That has proved very costly already in regard to land valuation.

We endeavoured in the House to-day to obtain some information as to what is the position of that land valuation. Like a great deal more of the work of the Government, that is in a hopelessly confused condition. All the information which reaches me is that your valuations are being unsatisfactorily done, and that there is no similarity between the different valuations. It is impossible for us to test that, but in the meantime we are entitled to know without further delay, at all events at the commencement of the Debate to-morrow, exactly what it is you propose to do in regard to the valuation question in future, and what you really mean to put in the place of the local authorities who have done this work on the whole admirably; who have the local knowledge and the local experience which I believe to be essential to a fair system of assessment. I do not believe in all the history of Parliament, the Second Reading of the Finance Bill has ever been taken in circumstances so extraordinary as those in which we find ourselves now. The last word I have to say is that if the Government felt that if they were obliged to capitulate to their own Friends, and to run away from the position which up to the last moment they had apparently intended to hold, the least they could have done was, before putting down the Second Reading of the Bill, to have made their intention known to the House and the country. To take it now as they are taking it, having given up a great part of their scheme, having abandoned a great part of their proposal, having changed their whole plan, is, in my opinion, an insult to the House, and I hope at all events, before we go any further, we shall have from them at first hand a full and authoritative statement of what their policy really is.

Before the Debate is adjourned, I think we are entitled to know from the Government how soon they intend to pass this Bill into law, because it now stands in a wholly different position owing to the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act of last year. That Act gave a Resolution of this House statutory effect. Therefore the banks in the morning will be deducting this extra penny in accordance with what is a Statute, although the announcement is made by the Minister to-night that there is no intention of using that money. It therefore seems to me that we are entitled, before the Debate is adjourned to-night, to hear from the Government that they will either pass a special Act through the House of Commons, which I assume the House will assent to in a very short time, or else they will take some course which will ensure that what in future will be an illegal collection of taxes shall cease. The Government last year passed this Provisional Collection of Taxes Act against the protests of many Members. Various plans were suggested, but they rejected them all, and insisted upon putting on the Statute Book a declaration that these Resolutions should have statutory effect, and that they should cease to have statutory effect if Parliament was dissolved or prorogued or an Act came into operation varying or renewing the tax. Therefore this tax, in spite of the announcement of Ministers to-night, will be again collected in the morning by the banks, and will be stopped by limited liability companies just as if no announcement had been made by Ministers. The Government have got themselves into that muddle by this Act. If they had not passed the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act that state of things would not arise, and therefore there is urgency for an immediate statement by the Government upon this subject. The only other point I wish to know is this. The right hon. Gentleman has stated that Part IV., which deals with the allocation of these Grants to authorities in England, Ireland, and Scotland, is to be put into a separate Bill. I want to know if there is to be a separate Resolution for this Bill? I also claim that, having regard to the terms of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, this House cannot or should not by a mere Amendment of this Bill reduce the tax from 1s. 4d. to 1s. 3d. by merely an Amendment in Committee, especially if the Super-tax is effected. I maintain that a new Resolution and a new Bill are absolutely essential and in accordance with the procedure of the House.

The statement which the President of the Local Government Board made earlier to-day has materially altered the national balance sheet which was given to the House of Commons by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he opened his Budget this year, and I presume that he has already prepared a new balance sheet on the new conditions, and that before the House resumes to discuss these proposals tomorrow that balance sheet will be in our hands. If he has not got that statement prepared, I beg to ask that he would have it prepared at the earliest possible moment and circulated without delay, because I have found it extremely difficult to follow the effect on the Budget Statement of the alterations announced by the President of the Local Government Board.

If the right hon. Gentleman has not got that statement, could he say what it amounts to in actual figures; and is it a reduction of 1s. 4d. to 1s. 3d., or does the penny come off all grades of Income Tax?

I should have considered the right hon. Gentleman's request a very reasonable one if it had not been for the exceptional circumstances today. I am afraid I could not command the services of the officials who would have to prepare the document, and without whose authority I should not feel confident to circulate an important document of that kind. Otherwise I could have circulated it to-morrow with the Votes. The hon. Member has asked me a question. It is purely a matter of taking a penny off the 1s. 4d. Income Tax. That makes a difference of £2,576,000. I can give the substance of the White Paper now. We propose taking off in respect of temporary Grants £2,182,000. That is what they will amount to for England, Scotland, and Ireland. There will be no temporary Grants to either England, Scotland, or Ireland except in respect of the items which my right hon. Friend (Mr. Herbert Samuel) has already indicated.

It is not merely educational; it is local government as well. The temporary Grants will not cover education.

Ireland will get Grants in respect of tuberculosis and insurance, and in respect of those items Ireland will get her share of the Grant, and they are very important items in Ireland as well as in every other part of the United Kingdom. That leaves me short of £394,000. I budgeted for a surplus of £250,000. That will mean a deficiency of £144,000. But Customs and revenue are coming in a little better than we anticipated. If there were a deficiency, of course it would come in the usual way out of the Exchequer Balances. But the way Customs and revenue are coming in there will be no need at all for drawing on the Exchequer Balances. That is the position and that information will be put in the form of a White Paper, but I am afraid it cannot be done to-morrow. With regard to the other question put by the hon. and learned Gentleman with regard to what is known as the Gibson Bowles Act, he wrongly ascribed responsibility for that to the Government. The Clause in the Gibson Bowles Act which he referred to was inserted, I do not think at his in- stance, but at the instance of some hon. Members sitting around him. They pressed the Government for that, and it was rather against the wishes of the Government and under protest that they accepted it in order to get the Bill through. The hon. and learned Gentleman says that we have got ourselves into a difficulty owing to this Act. As a matter of fact, if we had not got that Act, we could not collect it under any Resolution, so we should have been infinitely worse off. With regard to the other question he put, what is the position in regard to the collection of Income Tax, as he knows very well that is a very small matter at this time of the year. For instance, up to the present we have only collected about £50,000. It is only a serious matter later in the year. But in any event the whole of that sum will have to be refunded, because what the banks will do when the second payment of dividend comes to be made, will be to make an allowance for that in the deduction they make.

The hon. and learned Gentleman, as usual, is inaccurate. This is purely a provisional arrangement until the Statute is passed. The hon. and learned Gentleman's contention is that under no condition, once the Chancellor of the Exchequer brings in a Resolution, can the House of Commons alter it. Many a time the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not followed up proposals which have been made. On many occasions proposals have been altogether dispensed with. For example, there was the proposed Wheel Tax. If it were to be said that when a Resolution is passed, the House of Commons could not alter it, that would be an impossible position, and no one contemplated that under the Gibson Bowles Act.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer one question in that connection, namely, at what rate does he propose that the collection should be made between the present time and the passing of the Finance Act?

Of course, until the House of Commons takes some step to alter the Resolution, I cannot take the responsibility of altering it. For the moment I have the Resolution of the House of Commons, and until the House of Commons alters it, at least in Committee, we shall collect under the original Resolution. I am bound to act upon the advice I receive. I am told that the House of Commons could alter it in Committee, and if that were done, it would justify additional instructions being given to collect at the lower figure.

May I ask a question on this point on this point? If I interpret correctly the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, I understand that the amount by which there is an excess of deduction, if the Resolution is not carried into law, becomes an illegal deduction. Will the right hon. Gentleman say how the banks will be able to set off hereafter on the second dividends the portion which they have illegally deducted, and which, as stated in the Act, is an illegal deduction? Will he tell us at whose expense this adjustment or rearrangement will be made? Is it to be done at the expense of the taxpayer, or at the expense of the Exchequer? May I refer the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Statute, because he suggested that the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) was inaccurate, whereas he was perfectly accurate? The Statute provides that a Resolution shall cease to have effect in certain events, and paragraph ( c ) of the proviso to Section 1, Sub-section (1) says:—

"Where the Resolution so ceases to have statutory effect, or the said period terminates, before an Act comes into operation varying or renewing the tax, any money paid in pursuance of the Resolution shall be repaid or made good, and any deduction made in pursuance of the Resolution shall be deemed to be an unauthorised deduction."

I want to know how banks can make unauthorised deductions, hold the money, and then set it off against subsequent dividends?

The hon. and learned Gentleman clearly does not understand the point. He first of all postulates that the deduction is illegal. That is what it is not. The deduction made by the bank is perfectly legal until the House of Commons orders to the contrary. Then the banks have got to refund it. The arrangements which they make with their clients for refunding is a matter for them. So far as the Exchequer are concerned, we are prepared to allow the amount. We will make arrangements to hand the money over to them to deal with.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he cannot get out of the difficulty by adhering to the original proposal, and, instead of bringing in any new Resolution as to Income Tax, granting a reduction of indirect taxation, particularly the Sugar Duty?

That does not arise on the Second Reading of this Bill.

Motion made, and Question "That the Debate be now adjourned"—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher ]—put, and agreed to.

Debate to be resumed to-morrow (Tuesday).

ADJOURNMENT.—Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Mr. Gulland. ]

Adjourned at Twenty-five minutes before Seven of the clock.