House of Commons
Thursday, October 28, 1915
Private Business
London County Council (Celluloid, etc.) Bill (Suspended Bill) (by Order),
Glasgow Corporation (Celluloid) Bill (Suspended Bill) (by Order),
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday next.
National Insurance Act
Copy presented of Provisional Regulations, dated 26th October, 1915, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, entitled the National Health Insurance (Injuries in War Compensation) Regulations, 1915 [by Act] to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 375.]
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,
Postal and Telegraph Rates (Statutory Limits) Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to enable persons during the continuance of the War, and for a period of two years thereafter, to be appointed or admitted to the Indian Civil Service without examination." [Indian Civil Service (Temporary Provisions) Bill [ Lords. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
War
American Loan
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in connection with the Five per Cent. Loan recently effected by the British Government in the United States of America, any undertaking, and, if so, what undertaking, has been given that the money so borrowed shall be spent in the United States; and, if such undertaking has been given, does it include any obligation to purchase any particular class of goods or from any specified companies or firms in the United States?
An undertaking has been given that the money so borrowed should be used exclusively in the United States. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
Cotton Growing (Egypt)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, since the commencement of the present War, orders have been given by the Egyptian or Soudanese Governments, or by both, to restrict the planting of cotton; and, if so, when were those orders given, to what extent was the restriction ordered, and were the orders subsequently varied as to the degree of restriction; and, if so, when and to what extent?
As far as Egypt is concerned this question was answered in detail on the 23rd of November last. We have received no further information, but I will make inquiries as to the present position, both in Egypt and the Sudan.
Enemy Property
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the fact that the object of the Allies' agreement, embodied in the Order in Council of 11th March, 1915, is to prevent commodities of any kind from reaching or leaving Germany, whether he will explain how that object is to be attained in respect of enemy property; and will he especially explain how that object is to be attained in respect of enemy property destined to neutral ports?
Commodities intended to reach or leave Germany, to which the hon. and gallant Member refers, must in all cases, whether they are to pass through a neutral port or not, be goods of either enemy destination or enemy origin, and are accordingly seized and dealt with under the Proclamation.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the fact stated in his dispatch of 23rd July, 1913, to the American Ambassador that in actual practice we are only detaining enemy property when it is of enemy origin or enemy destination, if he will state what happens to enemy goods passing from a neutral port to a neutral port; and whether the effect is to make Articles 3 and 4 of the Order in Council, 11th March, 1915, of little value in carrying out the declared object of the Order in Council to prevent commodities of any kind from reaching or leaving Germany?
The object of the Proclamation is to prevent goods entering or leaving an enemy country, and in consequence goods can be and are seized under the Proclamation whenever their ultimate origin or destination is an enemy country. It makes no difference to the operation of the Proclamation that the goods at the moment of seizure are proceeding from one neutral port to another provided that they have an ultimate enemy origin or enemy destination in fact.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state why enemy property when it is not of enemy origin or enemy destination is not seized in accordance with the Order in Council and the Declaration made?
My recollection is that the Proclamation referred to goods of enemy origin or enemy destination.
It also says enemy property.
Enemy property not proceeding to or from an enemy country? I should think that the amount of goods involved in that is comparatively small. If the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member is that goods belonging to a German, proceeding from a South American port to a United States port in a neutral vessel, should be seized, and that it is the duty of the Navy to patrol the waters for that purpose, I do not think it would be in the interests of the country to place that burden on the Navy.
Would it not simplify the difficulty considerably if we seized all enemy property?
I am not sure that it would, but I will inquire into that.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any further immunities to enemy goods from liability to capture have been granted by licence or otherwise since the concessions made to the United States in his letter of 17th June, 1915; whether the export of German goods contracted for prior to 16th June, which were made immune from liability to be taken to our Prize Courts, has now come to an end; and whether he can assure the House that no Foreign Office permits are now being issued contrary to the spirit and letter of the agreement with our Allies, as explained in the Order in Council of 11th March, 1915, that our blockade was to prevent commodities of any kind from reaching or leaving Germany?
There has never been any question of giving immunity to goods of enemy origin contracted for prior to 16th June last, as the hon. Member seems to suggest. His Majesty's Government have declared their intention not to interfere with the shipment from neutral ports of goods of enemy origin actually ordered before 1st March, 1915, and either paid for prior to that date or contracted for upon such terms that the neutral purchaser is liable for payment, and such payment in the enemy country can be legally enforced, whether the goods are delivered to him in his own country or not. His Majesty's Government have stipulated that all such intended shipments shall be notified to them for consideration before 1st November. As hon. Members will see, this does not affect enemy-owned goods in the sense of goods belonging to enemy owners in any way. They are, and always have been, since 1st March, liable to capture. No goods so far as we can prevent them pass to or from German ports. I cannot, as regards neutral ports, give an undertaking to do more than we have been doing. To do so would involve unreasonable interference with rights of neutrals, and would not be in the interest of this country, but very much the contrary.
Would that include cotton?
Ever since the Order in Council was issued cotton has been interfered with if going to Germany, and recently it has been declared absolute contraband.
Would the right hon. Gentleman's answer cover the case of leather goods, which I understand have been allowed to be exported for the winter trade in America?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will give me notice of that question.
Declaration of London
asked, in view of the repudiation of one of the articles of the Declaration of London because, as stated, it is no longer expedient for us to adopt it, whether His Majesty's Government have taken into consideration Article 65, that the provisions of the Declaration of London must be treated as a whole and cannot be separated; and whether it is equally expedient to return to the rules and principles guiding the Royal Navy and the Prize Courts before the Declaration of London?
The Declaration not having been ratified, His Majesty's Government are free to adopt, as they have done, such of its provisions as seem to them to express satisfactorily generally accepted rules of international law.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state which articles of the Declaration of London are still adopted and enforced by the Government, and in what respect the articles still in force differ in principle from the maritime law of nations in force prior to the framing of the Declaration of London; and whether, in view of the fact that the Declaration of London was never approved by Parliament, he will consider the advisability of leaving the action of the Navy unfettered by its remaining provisions?
The information asked for in the first part of the question may be obtained by reference to the Proclamations issued on the subject. The second part of the question raises a number of questions of great complexity which can scarcely be dealt with by way of question and answer. As regards the third part, I can assure the hon. Member that the means of facilitating the effective action of His Majesty's Fleet receives the constant attention of His Majesty's Government, and if he will point out any matter in which he thinks it improperly fettered I will gladly consider it. I must again say that the Declaration of London possesses no force; where any provision taken from it is mentioned it is solely because it is a convenient expression of some generally accepted rule of international law. The action of the Navy is not limited by anything except such rules, and I believe if the hon. Member will examine previous wars he will find that the action of the British Navy has not been less free in this war than previously.
Murder of Miss Cavell
asked whether, according to Article 10 of The Hague Convention of 1907 and the guarantee of the neutrality of Belgium, to which Prussia is a party, the late Miss Cavell was, according to such law as can be applied to her case, guilty of any military offence?
It seems unnecessary to go into technical legal points to condemn what has been done in this case. The reprobation of it, which I believe is widespread in the world, rests upon higher considerations which arouse deeper feelings than mere illegality.
Mexico (German Expeditions)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information regarding alleged German piratical and filibustering expeditions to the Mexican shores for the purpose of gun-running, interfering with British oil trade, or keeping alive the anarchical and revolutionary activities of certain parties in Mexico?
Beyond what has appeared in the newspapers I regret that I have no information on this subject. I have no reason to suppose that British oil properties have been injured by German agents.
Central Africa
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the proposal to neutralise Central Africa, presented by the United States Ambassador on 24th September, 1914, was submitted to the Cabinet during the two months that it was under consideration; whether, in view of the publication of the correspondence in Germany, the Government will publish the letters written by the British Minister at Madrid in August of 1914 and the reply thereto, and the letters written by the United States Ambassador and the reply thereto of 20th November, 1914; and whether the Foreign Office have any record of a German attack in Central Africa before the British bombardment of Dar-es-Salaem on 8th August, 1914?
I cannot say whether the proposal was submitted to the Cabinet; there is no record to that effect, but it was fully considered by the Ministers of the Departments concerned, and the decision taken was in accord with one come to by the Committee of Imperial Defence long before the outbreak of war. It is desirable to curtail the expenditure on official publications as much as possible, but copies of the correspondence will be placed in the Library of this House for the information of hon. Members. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Will the right hon. Gentleman go a little further and give copies of this correspondence to Members of Parliament who desire to have them?
I think that, in the first instance, we had better put the correspondence in the Library, and then if Members think it desirable to have copies we will consider it.
Declarations and Conventions (British Obligations)
asked whether the British policy towards Germany, after her many breaches of international law, is to regard this country as unfettered by any previous Declarations or Conventions to which Germany and the Crown were signatories, although towards neutral Powers Great Britain may still adhere to such Declarations or Conventions?
As far as Germany is concerned, I agree with the Noble Lord that this country is under no obligation to her in respect of the Declarations and Conventions named. We shall, however, I hope continue, whatever Germany does, to pay regard to those considerations of humanity which are independent of any Convention or Declaration, and the rights of neutrals must, of course, be respected.
Murder of Jean Jaures
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can inform the House if any Members of the French Chamber have been detained in connection with alleged complicity in the murder of Jean Jaurés; whether any instructions were issued by the Foreign Office to the Press Bureau for the purpose of preventing knowledge of the fact becoming general in Great Britain; and, if so, upon what ground such instructions were issued?
I have no information on the subject, and this is the first I have heard of detention of French Members of Parliament. No instructions were issued from the Foreign Office to the Press Bureau in this connection.
Great Britain and Russia
14.
asked whether the German Chancellor, in the beginning of July, 1914, informed the British Government that he was aware that Great Britain had entered into a naval agreement with Russia; and, if any undertaking had in fact been entered into, what obligations were entailed upon this country in relation thereto?
May I say that this question has been slightly censored? I asked if there was any truth in the statements made in the Reichstag.
That form of questioning is not permitted. The hon. Member must make himself responsible for the matter asked in the question.
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part of the question, there was no naval or military agreement with Russia entailing obligations on this country prior to the Agreement of the 5th of September, 1914, made some weeks after the outbreak of War.
Emigration
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can give the House any information regarding the increase in emigration during the last few weeks?
asked the Prime Minister whether he intends to take any steps to restrict emigration from this country, so as to keep here men who are required for agriculture or other essential trades or may be required for the military defence of the country?
I would refer the hon. Members to the answer which the President of the Board of Trade gave to the hon. Member for South Birmingham last Tuesday. As the numbers emigrating are much below the normal rate no question of restricting emigration has yet arisen.
Cotton for Germany
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that last month the Norwegian steamship "Eir," carrying 6,500 bales of cotton from New York, discharged 1,500 bales at Gothenburg, and, while nominally proceeding to Copenhagen, was steered by an unregistered pilot from territorial waters into the open sea, in order that she might be captured by a German destroyer, which in fact awaited her there and captured her; and what steps he is taking to prevent a repetition of such-like occurrences?
According to the information which has reached His Majesty's Government, the vessel, having succeeded in evading the Allied patrol, proceeded first to Gothenburg and then ostensibly for Copenhagen, her orders being to keep within the three-mile limit during the latter part of her voyage. She appears to have been captured by a German man-of-war whilst in Swedish waters. What precautions can be taken to avoid the repetition of such an occurrence is a matter to be dealt with by the naval authorities. But they are not likely to make their plans public.
British Prize Court
asked if the British Note to the United States of America, dated 31st July, 1915, commits the British Government to the submission of any decision of a British Prize Court during the War to an international tribunal should the United States Government make such a demand; and, if so, what other countries are in a position to make the same demand?
I cannot state the attitude of His Majesty's Government more clearly than it is stated in the Note itself, but I may add that reference to an international tribunal is the usual means adopted by civilised Governments for the settlement of differences of opinion about questions of a legal nature when direct diplomatic negotiations have failed. It is in such cases much to be preferred to the method of settlement by war. The point has not arisen in discussion with any other neutral Government.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is a fact that the United States are in a position, if they so desire, to demand that the decision of a British Prize Court during the War must be referred to an international tribunal?
If any dispute arose between ourselves and the United States, after all legal remedies had been exhausted in this country at this time, I think, undoubtedly, we should refer the matter to arbitration.
Questions
Government Workers (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the number of Government workers in Ireland that are not in receipt of a decent living wage; and, having regard to the increase in the cost of living caused by taxation and the War, will he consider the advisability of recommending the payment of a reasonable war bonus, according to their wages and salaries, to the said employés?
I would refer the hon.. Member to the reply I gave to the similar question asked by him yesterday.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are a number of Government employés working for less than £l a week in Ireland; does he consider that a reasonable wage for a married man?
I am afraid that if there are such cases they must be considered individually, and on their merits—or rather on their demerits. I cannot generally assert that the country is in a position to make up to everybody in Ireland, or anywhere else, the discomforts occasioned by financial pressure.
Hay Purchases
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), whether, in constituting the Committee appointed by him for fixing the prices to be paid for hay purchased by Army agents in Ireland, he has followed the practice adopted in England and Wales in regard to the same matter by the English Board of Agriculture, especially in the appointment of at least one farmer and one hay merchant from each of the areas concerned in hearing the views of the farmers of each district before fixing the prices, and in fixing the time for delivery so as to suit the convenience of the sellers; and, if this course has not been adopted, whether he will state the reason?
In reply to the hon. and learned Member, I beg to state that the Department has constituted no Committee for fixing the price to be paid for hay purchased by Army agents in Ireland. As stated in my reply to a question on the 19th instant, the Department at the request of the military authorities invited representative farmers and others to a conference. These gentlemen, who attended from each of the four provinces, merely advised as to the prices at which they believed hay could be obtained voluntarily in their respective districts. The fixing of the price of hay in Ireland is entirely in the hands of the military authorities. I may add that before I left Ireland on Monday, another conference was held, and two gentlemen have been appointed to continue to advise the military authorities.
The right hon. Gentleman will see that he has not answered the question I asked him, as to whether he has followed the course pursued by the English Board of Agriculture, where the same question has arisen?
I ended by saying that we had asked two gentlemen to assist the War Office in settling any disputes in each province.
Has not the English Board of Agriculture taken into account the views of the farmers in the areas concerned, before fixing or advising on any price, and has that course been followed, or will it be followed, in relation to Ireland?
I cannot answer for the English Board.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why the Government cannot pay the same price for hay in Dublin as poor people have to pay?
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury the names of the Government buyers or agents purchasing hay in Ireland and their respective districts; by whom they were appointed, what qualifications they possessed, and whether they were subject to any test of efficiency before appointment?
I will circulate the information for which my hon. Friend asks in the first part of his question, as it is too long to read. With regard to the latter parts of the question, most of the staff was obtained from the instructional agricultural staff of the Irish Department of Agriculture, and on the recommendation of members of that Department. Before final appointment they were required to serve a probationary period of not less than two months in Ireland and elsewhere.—[ See also Written Answers this date. ]
asked why the maximum price paid for hay in Ireland by the Government buyers is lower than that paid in England and Scotland; and who fixes the maximum prices in England, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively?
I am informed that Irish hay, owing to climatic conditions, cannot be baled to as great a density. The prices are recommended by a representative Committee of leading agriculturists.
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that in the Midlands of Ireland many farmers who had sold their hay to private persons by treaty and in the open market at the prevailing market price were prevented from delivering the same by Government buyers who intervened and offered from 10s. to 15s. per ton less; that these farmers were either compelled to sell at this under-value to the Government agents or keep the hay on their farms; and if he will consider the advisability of appointing an impartial tribunal or umpire to deal with cases where there is a substantial margin between the price offered by the Government agent and the price obtainable in the public market at the time?
I have no information as to the facts stated in the first part of my hon. Friend's question, but I may say that there is evidence of general satisfaction with the prices paid in Ireland. A representative body of agriculturists drawn from each province of Ireland and presided over by Mr. Campbell of the Irish Department of Agriculture has been appointed; the prices paid in Ireland are based on their recommendation, and they will also act as umpires should cases arise requiring their services.
Central Africa
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he communicated the proposal to neutralise Central Africa by the United States Ambassador on 24th September to the Government of the Union of South Africa or to the Governor-General of South Africa in his capacity of High Commissioner in control of Rhodesia; and whether any arrangement exists between the British Government and the Government of the Union of South Africa by which questions affecting territories bordering on South Africa should be settled in consultation between the two Governments?
The proposal was not communicated, and indeed the progress of hostilities would in any case have rendered discussion idle. His Majesty's Government have been in constant communication with the Union Government on all matters of common interest ever since the War broke out.
East Africa
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that recently a meeting was held at Nairobi when it was publicly stated that the enemy had 5,000 men, fully armed and equipped, within our territory, and that a ship recently had landed a large consignment of stores and munitions of war; and if he will take an early opportunity of making a statement on the position of affairs in East Africa?
I have seen a report of the meeting in one of the local newspapers. It is possible that there is a considerable number of German native troops just over the frontier in the neighbourhood of Kilima-Njaro, but the enemy has not penetrated in any force or to any distance into our territory. A ship which was supposed to be carrying arms and ammunition for the German forces was sunk in Mansa Bay by one of His Majesty's ships. I do not think it desirable to make any statement at present as to the position in East Africa beyond this, that the Government are giving the subject most careful consideration.
Colonial Expeditionary Forces (Pay)
asked the rate of pay of privates in the Expeditionary Forces raised by Canada, Australia, and New Zealand?
The payments to the men in the Expeditionary Forces of Canada, Australia and New Zealand are made entirely out of funds provided by the Governments of those Dominions. I understand that the daily rates are respectively $1, 6s. and 5s.
Will the right hon. Gentleman suggest to his colleagues the same rate of pay to British privates in order to stimulate recruiting?
No, Sir; I shall make no such suggestion. Each portion of His Majesty's Dominions must judge of what is the correct rate of pay, based on the conditions of those Dominions, of course, with the desire to make it as high as possible.
Aircraft Raids
Defences of London and Paris
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what new steps, if any, are being taken in the direction of safeguarding the lives of the citizens of London in the event of future Zeppelin invasions?
The defence of London, whether by guns or by aeroplanes, is the subject of anxious study, and is undergoing, I hope, constant improvement.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to believe that Zeppelins are guided by lights in this country, and has not, in fact, a naturalised British subject been recently arrested on a charge of signalling?
That does not arise on this question
Is any efficient range-finder in use to ascertain at any moment the exact position—
Notice must be given of that question.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether every antiaircraft gun in the Metropolis is in charge of a fully qualified gunnery officer and gun detachment; and, if not, what are the qualifications of the persons manning the anti-aircraft guns?
I have nothing to add to a statement made on this subject before in the House; and if the hon. Gentleman will refer to my answer to the hon. Member for Inverness Burghs on Thursday last I think he will be satisfied.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has made himself acquainted with the methods of defence against air attack provided in the case of Paris, in consequence of which that city, though only 50 miles from the German lines, has not, despite several attempts, suffered from Zeppelin attacks since October, 1914; and whether he intends to provide London with similar facilities for defence?
The answer is in the affirmative. Let me add that I do not accept without qualification the implication contained in the question that Paris is more easily approached by Zeppelins than London.
Am I right in saying that the members of the Government incur the same risk in this matter as everyone else, and are just as anxious to save themselves?
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that Paris is within, certainly, 60 miles of the German lines, and that London is something like 140 miles from the nearest Zeppelin base?
I am quite aware that Paris is nearer to the German lines than London, but that does not settle the question. There are many considerations, and I would remind the hon. Member that Zeppelins are not kept in the German lines. Where a Zeppelin comes from depends on the power of accommodation, which is a very costly and difficult matter, and the Allies, I am glad to say, have been so fortunate in their attacks on Zeppelin sheds in the Low Countries that that is not a favourable place to put their Zeppelins.
May I ask—
The hon. Member must give notice. We are only at Question No. 30, and there are more than 100 questions on the Paper.
asked whether Admiral Sir Percy Scott has sole control of all the means of the defence of London against air attack, including control of the Army Aeroplane Corps; whether his action is controlled by any other authority; if so, by what authority; and from what authority does he obtain information of an anticipated attack?
Sir Percy Scott's duties are primarily with the gun defence of London. There is, as I explained the other day, full co-operation between the gunnery defences of London and the naval and military flying services.
May I ask, if Sir Percy Scott is not responsible for the aeroplane defence of London, who is the person responsible for sending up the naval and military aeroplanes?
The military are responsible for sending up the military aeroplanes, and the Navy are responsible for sending up the naval aeroplanes.
asked whether, on the occasion of the last raid, the authorities were informed of the approach of Zeppelins before audiences had assembled in theatres and other places of amusement?
The Admiralty are dependent for their earliest information about Zeppelins on observations made at the coast and possibly by cruisers or other vessels at sea. It should be remembered that the fact that a Zeppelin has been seen approaching the coast or moving inland is no conclusive proof of a raid on London. As the hon. Gentleman is aware, the Home Secretary explained fully the other day the strong reasons which exist against any attempt to give public warning of Zeppelin attacks.
Is it not a fact that the approach of the Zeppelins to London was known shortly after eight o'clock? Is it wise to allow people to crowd into theatres when it is known that a Zeppelin attack will be made?
I would respectfully refer the hon. Gentleman to the speech of the Home Secretary on Thursday last. In the first place, he made a very clear argument, as I thought; and, in the second place, it is the Home Secretary who is responsible for the particular point raised, and not the Admiralty.
asked whether, when up to the time of the last editions of the evening newspapers in London going to press no news of a probable Zeppelin raid has been received, he will cause a notification to that effect to be published?
For the reasons which I explained to the House last Thursday, I am of opinion that the dangers of issuing warnings far outweigh any advantages there might be.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last night there was a stampede from this Chamber because they heard of a Zeppelin raid? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]
The hon. Member is not entitled to say that there was any stampede here. Moreover, it is contrary to the fact.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two hon. Members actually left the House? I was here at the time.
It was a question of two attractions.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Members or individuals who know that Zeppelins are coming do go to join their families, and why should not others—
That does not arise out on the question on the Paper.
( at a later stage ): I wish, as a matter of personal explanation, to refer to a statement which I made just now, and in which I said there was a stampede on the part of hon. Members of this House. I desire to make the most absolute apology, because it has been inferred that my suggestion was that they left the House on account of fear. There was nothing further from my mind. I meant to convey that their desire was to get home to their families, and it was, therefore, absolutely incorrect for me to have used the word "stampede." I may say I myself left the House not to escape the Zeppelins, but a gas-bag.
asked the Home Secretary whether, in the event of any future Zeppelin raid resulting in casualties, he will cause the names of victims to be published as soon as possible?
I think it would give rise to much unnecessary anxiety and alarm if the names were published without the addresses which would distinguish the persons killed or injured from other persons having similar names; and addresses cannot, of course, be given. When persons are killed or injured in such circumstances that their friends are not aware of it at the time, the earliest possible intimation is given to the friends by the police.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that electric carriages running on suburban lines are not provided with blinds, and that where shades have been provided to the lamps a great amount of light still escapes through the windows; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on Thursday last to a similar question put by him.
Questions
German Securities
asked whether, in view of the defiance of international law by the German Emperor in ordering the wholesale destruction of the private property of civilians in this country by Zeppelins, the Government will take steps to trace and sequestrate the private securities in England of the German Emperor and the rulers of the German States in order to hold them as security for the present and future damage caused by air raids?
No, Sir; my right hon. Friend does not consider that the hon. Member's suggestion offers a practical method of deterring the enemy from further violation of international law.
Motor Car Lamps
asked the Home Secretary what means have been adopted for distinguishing, while in rapid motion, motor cars used for military and naval purposes, which are allowed to carry powerful lamps, from motor cars to which the use of such lamps is forbidden?
Arrangements have been made to enable the police to distinguish these cars and at the same time to prevent unauthorised persons from pretending to be authorised, but I think my hon. Friend will see that they ought not to be made public.
Fleet Despatches
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what remuneration is paid to those Members of Parliament who carry despatches to and from the Fleet?
The hon. Gentlemen in question receive no remuneration. They receive allowances to cover the cost of travelling.
H.M. Ships (Names)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in consideration of the services rendered by England and her people to the cause of liberty and civilisation in the present War, he will cause the name "England" to be given to one of His Majesty's capital ships at the earliest possible opportunity?
I am quite sure that the last thing my hon. Friend would wish would be to institute comparison between the services rendered by various parts of the Empire. His suggestion shall be considered. He is, of course, aware that there is an "Albion" in the Navy.
Will my right hon. Friend remember there are other countries in the United Kingdom besides England?
I can show the hon. Member a list of Scottish names of ships in the Navy.
Captured German Trawlers
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the German trawlers recently captured and brought into Grimsby are being utilised in any way by his Department so as to prevent the necessity of commandeering further trawlers in the East of Scotland, which are regularly bringing large supplies of food?
As I informed the hon. Member for Grimsby on Tuesday last, I do not think it would be in the public interest to specify the use to which captured enemy vessels may be put.
National Reserve (Bounties)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether while ex-Army men in the National Reserve are allowed a gratuity of £10 on rejoining the Army on mobilisation, no such allowance is made to ex-Navy men, on the National Reserve, who rejoin the Navy; and, if so, what is the reason of this difference of treatment?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Hammersmith on 18th May last. As I then stated, in reference to the bounty alluded to, the National Reserve was instituted for the benefit of the Army, and the bounty system was adopted to induce its members to join the Army. If, therefore, a National Reservist does not join the Army—for joining which he is offered a bounty—but elects to join the Navy—for which he is, not offered a bounty—no bounty is paid.
Army Clothing Contracts
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has made inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the recent placing of an order for Army cloth by the Italian Government in the United States; whether representations have reached him from various parts of this country about slackness of work in mills producing such goods, and whether he is able to announce any arrangements whereby the mills of this country shall have the first opportunity of tendering for the requirements of our own and other allied Governments?
The order referred to by my hon. Friend was placed in the United States of America without the knowledge of His Majesty's Government. Some months previous to the placing of this order, when it became evident that the contracts for military cloth entered into by the British and other Allied Governments were no longer capable of keeping the mills in this country fully employed, the Italian Government were invited through their delegates on the Commission Internationale de Ravitaillement to purchase cloth in the United Kingdom. The attention of the Italian Government has again been drawn to this invitation, and a promise has been received that they will favour British manufacturers as far as possible in future. Orders for Army cloth for the use of His Majesty's Forces are not placed outside the United Kingdom unless it is absolutely unavoidable, and the other Allied Governments are again being urged to afford British mills the first opportunity of tendering for the supply of any cloth which they may require.
British Dyes, Limited
asked the President of the Board of Trade what progress has been made by British Dyes, Limited; and when he expects an actual out-turn of dyes to be effected?
I am informed by the directors of British Dyes, Limited, that the works acquired from Read, Holliday and Sons, Limited, have been considerably extended, and that the volume of dyes produced during the first nine months of this year has been more than double the output in the corresponding period of 1914. A site for new works has also been acquired, and the company is proceeding with erection there as rapidly as is possible in present industrial conditions.
Coal Prices
asked the President of the Board of Trade the retail prices of the following classes of coal sold in London on 1st October, 1914, and 1st October, 1915: Derby Brights, kitchen coal, nuts?
The retail prices in London of the kinds of coal specified on 1st October, 1914, were usually 27s. per ion for Derby Brights, 26s. for kitchen coal, 26s. for nuts, and 23s. for stove nuts. On 1st October, 1915, the prices were respectively 32s., 31s. 6d., 31s. and 29s. in North London. In South London in 1915 all the prices were 1s. higher.
Food Prices
asked the President of the Board of Trade the average prices paid by the working classes in the large towns of the United Kingdom (population over 50,000) on 1st July, 1914, 1st October, 1914, and 1st October, 1915, for the following articles of food: Beef, home and imported, mutton, home and imported, bacon, fish, flour, bread, sugar (granulated), milk, potatoes, margarine, butter, cheese, eggs and tea?
The particulars required are too numerous to give verbally, but I will have them published in the OFFICIAL REPORT.—[ See Written Answers this date. ]
Frozen Meat (Sale Regulations)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether under Rule 6 of the general Regulations for the sale of frozen meat on account of His Majesty's Government, a selling agent of his Board is entitled to sell goods to himself; whether much of the mutton and most of the beef disposed of as surplus supplies is goods which, if arriving under the old system of private enterprise, would have a considerable insurance allowance made upon it; whether, as no one would sell damaged or inferior goods at sound value prices to himself, by what process are the deteriorations valued; whether the operation of Rule 6 is proving disastrous to his Department, and in effect it results in his commission agents never actually returning the market value of the goods; whether, under this rule, a firm who are Smithfield tenants and selling, say, a thousand sheep over their books in the course of the day must first of all go through the farce of selling the goods to themselves; whether in practice this means that a firm reckons up what the goods have made, and where a brisk day's trade occurs secure the advantage to themselves, but where falling prices and dull trade supervene arrange their returns so as to throw the loss on the Board of Trade; and whether his auditors have called for and examined any Smithfield selling agents' books yet?
As stated in the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend on 19th October, it is not practicable to discuss by way of question and answer the details of the methods by which surplus supplies of meat are put on the market. No complaints as to the procedure adopted have reached me from the trade, and the results have so far been satisfactory to the Board of Trade. If my hon. Friend will furnish me with particulars of any case in which any firm of selling agents have directly or indirectly been contravening or evading the Regulations which have been drawn up for the conduct of the business which they are doing on behalf of the Government I will have the fullest inquiries made, and will not hesitate to take such action as the case demands. I would add that when a firm of agents sell meat to themselves under the provisions of Regulation 6 for their own trade the price is fixed by assessors appointed by the Board of Trade for that purpose.
Argentine Meat Purchases
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his arrangement with the Argentine freezing establishments is to ship 25,000 tons of meat monthly, at a contract price of about 5⅜d. f.o.b.; whether, in consequence of a temporary rise of cattle market prices in the Argentine, the American-Argentine Meat combine have represented to him that they were losing over this contract; whether, to minimise this loss, he has withdrawn certain refrigerated tonnage from the Buenos Ayres route, the result being that the companies have been recently only shipping 18,000 tons monthly; what are his grounds for this treatment of the Chicago beef ring; whether, during the week ending 8th October, 44,000 quarters of beef were shipped from Buenos Ayres to New York and whether they were carried in British-owned refrigerated boats; if so, what was the name of the line?
I am not prepared to state what amount of meat is purchased from the Argentine or the price at which it is bought; to disclose these particulars would be contrary to public interests. There was recently a sharp rise in cattle prices in the Argentine which threatened to disorganise the meat trade, and as the winter months in the Argentine are not favourable for shipments of meat, and there was at the time an abundance of shipping tonnage I took the opportunity to divert certain ships to other markets so as to aid in the development of other sources of meat supply, which, as I have frequently stated, has always been an object I have kept before me. With regard to the latter part of the question, I am informed that frozen meat is carried from the River Plate to New York in connection with a mail contract which a British shipping company hold with the United States Government.
Coffee Purchases (German Firms.)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that large quantities of coffee have been purchased by German firms upon the markets in the City of London, consigned to the Belgian Relief Committee; and, as such goods pass through Holland, if any, or what, inquiries are made by His Majesty's Customs so as to ensure that the rightful person or persons receive such consignments?
Purchases made in this country by the Commission for Relief in Belgium are made only through firms permitted to trade here. It is, of course, possible that the members of such firms may in some cases possess German names or have German antecedents. The arrangements for the transport of goods consigned to the Commission in Belgium are under constant supervision, and the British Government is satisfied that there is no risk of their reaching an enemy country.
Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)
asked the Prime Minister the reasons that induced the Government to penalise the widows of officers killed in the War by granting pensions according to their different methods of death; and whether he will take steps to provide for the widows of all officers who give their lives for their country receiving equal consideration?
The proposals of the Select Committee, which have been adopted, provide adequately for the necessities of the widows of all such officers. Special consideration is shown for the widows of those killed in action or dying of wounds so received, in accordance with immemorial custom, and my hon. Friend cannot properly describe this as penalising the widows of others.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the difference in the pension to the widow of the officer killed at the front, apart altogether from the method by which he is killed?
I am afraid I cannot answer that question.
Government Policy
Prime Minister's Statement
asked the Prime Minister whether the Cabinet as a whole gave its sanction to the naval attack on the Dardanelles before the operations began?
asked whether, in view of the possibility of Lord Derby's final effort to secure recruits by voluntary enlistment not proving successful, any steps are being taken by His Majesty's Government to work out the administrative and legislative details of a scheme of compulsory service?
asked, in reference to the new recruiting campaign, whether Lord Derby's statement at the Mansion House that this is the final effort on behalf of voluntary service represents the policy of the Government on this question?
asked whether Lord Derby has Cabinet authority for stating that if men do not join now this is their last chance; and whether, if this has been discussed with Lord Derby, he proposes to discuss it also with the House of Commons?
The matters raised in these questions will be dealt with by the Prime Minister in his statement on Tuesday.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is yet in a position to name a day for his promised statement in regard to military operations; and can he state whether it will be made in a form enabling a general debate to take place thereon?
The Prime Minister will make his statement on Tuesday, and, as the House appears to desire it, it will be followed by a discussion.
Questions
Peace Negotiations
asked whether unofficial exchanges of views or negotiations are being or have been carried on, directly or indirectly, between responsible persons in London and Berlin with a view to the conclusion of an early peace; whether inquiries with the same object have been made by the official representatives of any neutral Power; and whether he still adheres to the declaration of his Guildhall speech that we shall never sheath the sword until Belgium has recovered all, and more than all, that she has sacrificed, until France is adequately secured against the menace of aggression, until the rights of the smaller nationalities of Europe have been placed upon an unassailable foundation, and until the military domination of Prussia is wholly and finally destroyed?
The words of the Prime Minister still hold good. We should not think of entering into any peace negotiations except in common with our Allies, in accordance with the agreement of 5th September, 1914. This has always been made perfectly clear, and I do not know to what the hon. Member's question can refer.
The Minister of Munitions has not answered the first part of my question
Certainly not.
Will the Government discourage any such negotiations if they are going on?
War Debates (Lords and Commons Procedure)
asked whether, having regard to the fact that no Debate on the conduct of the War or on matters arising in connection therewith can be initiated in the House of Commons without the consent of the Government, whereas no such consent is required in the House of Lords, he will take steps to bring about, by alterations in the Standing Orders of the House of Commons or otherwise, such changes as may be necessary to place the House of Commons in the same position in this respect as the House of Lords?
No, Sir; my right hon. Friend sees considerable difficulty in assimilating the procedure of this House to that of the House of Lords.
Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the present position of the two Houses in this matter?
Cabinet (Attorney-General)
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he will, in making the appointment of a new Attorney-General, consider the desirability of reverting to the practice which prevailed up to quite a recent date of the Attorney-General being outside the Cabinet; and (2) whether he will consider the desirability of reverting to the arrangement which obtained in Lord Rosebery's administration, by which the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General accepted sums of £8,000 and £7,000, respectively, in full payment for their services?
My right hon. Friend will no doubt take my hon. Friend's suggestion into consideration.
Ground Lime Railway Rates
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company have increased a rate from Womersley to Eastoft and other sidings for ground lime for agricultural purposes to the extent of 32½ per cent. above the rate quoted by the company on 6th February, 1914; will he say whether such increase has been made with the consent of the Board of Trade and, if so, upon what grounds; and whether, having regard to the representations now being pressed upon farmers by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries with a view to increasing the national food supply, he will cause this increased rate to be withdrawn?
I am in communication with the railway company on this matter, and I will let my right hon. Friend know the result.
Alien Enemies
asked whether, under the powers conferred by the Trading with the Enemy Act, Section 2, Sub-section (2), paragraphs ( b ) and ( c ), he took any steps, immediately after the passing of that Act on 18th September, 1914, or subsequently, and, if so, when, to ascertain whether Messrs. Henry R. Merton and Company, Limited, were trading with the enemy; and whether, in view of the conduct of that firm and of the recent action of His Majesty's Government in forbidding in China and other neutral countries a con- tinuance by British subjects of commercial relations with alien enemies or companies controlled by them, he proposes, by legislation or otherwise, to prevent companies controlled by alien enemies from continuing to carry on business in the United Kingdom?
I appointed an inspector of Henry R. Merton and Company, Limited, under the powers contained in Sub-section (2) of Section 2 of the Trading with the Enemy Act, 1914, on the 3rd October last year, and subsequently I appointed a supervisor of the business under the provisions of Section 12 of the Trading with the Enemy Amendment Act, 1914. As regards the last part of the question, the businesses of some of these companies serve a useful purpose at the present time. They are conducted under the restrictions imposed by the Trading with the Enemy Acts, and I doubt whether it would be expedient in the public interests to prevent their being carried on.
If that is the case, why are the merchants forbidden to deal with such firms in the East?
There is no analogy to be drawn between firms in the East and those to which my hon. Friend refers.
In the case of companies carried on in this country solely by alien enemies, will not the right hon. Gentleman in all cases get controllers appointed?
If it is a registered company solely controlled by enemy aliens we should of course place it under control, and I think that is done in every case. If my hon. Friend refers to private firms, I should be glad to have notice of the question.
asked the Home Secretary how many alien enemies are now at large in prohibited areas throughout the whole country?
A final census of alien enemies at large in different parts of the country has not yet been taken, as the process of repatriation is not yet complete; but figures in my possession show that there are 471 male alien enemies (of whom 364 are not of military age) residing by special permission in the prohibited areas on the East and South Coasts of Great Britain for which statistics have previously been given.
asked the Home Secretary how many alien enemies are now at large in the London police area?
The number of Germans and Austrians now at large in the Metropolitan and City Police areas is 9,355 males and 8,207 females (excluding British born wives of alien enemies). Of the males, 3,748 are of military age. Most of them are Austrians and all have been exempted from internment on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee; the other males and the females have been exempted from repatriation or are awaiting the decision of their cases.
On what ground is exemption from internment given to aliens of military age?
The ground is not the same in every case although it is necessarily a special ground. If the hon. Member will put himself in communication with me I shall be glad to show him specimen cases.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that it is safe to allow these aliens to continue to reside in prohibited areas?
That is a matter of opinion.
asked how many alien enemies have been interned since the new policy was commenced after his accession to office, and of that number how many have been since released?
On 13th May last, when the new policy was announced by the Prime Minister, there were 19,569 alien enemies other than combatants interned. The total now in internment camps is 32,458, so that the net increase is 12,919. During this period the total number of releases has been 580—including boys, old men, and invalids released and repatriated in exchange for British civilian prisoners.
Irish Linen
asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether collars or shirts of Irish linen into which a small proportion of cotton may enter, either as backing or in manufacture, are prohibited for export to neutral countries?
There is no prohibition of the export of linen collars or shirts in general, and where such goods contain only a small proportion of cotton they are not held to be within the prohibition of the export of cotton goods.
Would the right hon. Gentleman kindly inform me privately what the proportion may be?
Yes, I shall be very glad to do that.
Press Bureau
asked whether any special instructions have been given by the Press Bureau concerning the reporting of cases tried by the munitions tribunals; if so, whether he will indicate the nature of those instructions; and whether Press reports of munitions tribunal cases are submitted to the tribunals or to War Office censors or to any other persons before being passed for publication?
The Press have been instructed that reports of proceedings before munition tribunals may be published, provided care is taken to omit any particulars which would give useful information to the enemy or otherwise infringe Regulation 18 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations. For instance, nothing must be given which would disclose the situation of any factory not previously known to be a munitions factory. Press reports of munition tribunals are often submitted to the Press Bureau, where they are dealt with in the ordinary way. In any case of doubt, a reference would be made to the Ministry of Munitions.
Espionage
asked the Home Secretary how many persons of each sex have been tried and convicted by court-martial of the crime of espionage since the War began, and how many of these have suffered the penalty of death?
Thirteen men and one woman have been convicted of espionage committed since the War began. Of these nine men were tried by court-martial, the others by judges and juries. Of the thirteen men, ten were sentenced to death and have been executed. The other three men and the woman were sentenced to terms of penal servitude.
Is it the fact that no woman has suffered the capital penalty?
No, Sir, none.
Defence of the Realm Act
Society for the Aid of Russian Political Prisoners
asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that the Liverpool police, acting under the Defence of the Realm Act, have prohibited the holding of a concert in aid of the funds of the Liverpool branch of the Society for the Aid of Russian Political Prisoners, and that the members of the society have been warned, under penalty of expulsion from Liverpool within forty-eight hours, not to collect funds for this purpose, and that the house of a Mr. Bach-man has been repeatedly visited by the police, who have threatened the man with arrest, though stating no charge against him; and if this action is authorised by the Home Office?
My attention had not previously been called to this matter which was dealt with by the Liverpool police independently of the Home Office. From a report I have now received it appears that the persons by whom a hall had been let to a Mr. Bachman for the concert consulted the police as to whether the holding of the concert was desirable in present circumstances, and decided to cancel the letting of the hall. I do not gather that the members of the society have been warned, or that the house of Mr. Bachman has been repeatedly visited and himself threatened in the manner stated by the hon. Member.
Prices of Coal (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he has received representations from the Glasgow town council or other bodies of persons in Scotland suggesting legislation to provide for the retail price of coal being fixed at the September level for the winter months; is he aware that a special committee of the town council of Glasgow has, after special inquiry, made recommendations in that sense; and if he can take any action in the matter?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this ques- tion. The Board of Trade suggested to the Glasgow Corporation, as to other local authorities, that they should endeavour to make arrangements with the local coal merchants similar to that adopted in the London area. The corporation asked for legislation, but I think the question is one which can be dealt with by voluntary action.
Increased Rents (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether any report has yet been received from Lord Hunter and Dr. W. R. Scott as to the causes of increased rents in Scotland; and, in view of the urgency of this matter and of the fact that nearly 10,000 Glasgow tenants are resisting demands for increased rent, that several evictions are threatened, and that industrial unrest is spreading, the Government are now in a position to make a statement concerning their policy on this question?
The Committee has been taking evidence and is proceeding with all possible expedition, but no report could be yet expected, and I cannot make any statement until it is received.
Explosion at Lerwick (Admiralty Grant)
asked the Secretary for Scotland when the Scottish Local Government Board will allocate the Grant made by the Admiralty for the benefit of sufferers by the explosion at Lerwick in July last?
The Local Government Board for Scotland is in consultation with the Admiralty upon the matter, and it is hoped that it will be possible shortly to make the allocation of the Grant.
Munitions
British and American Contracts
asked the Minister of Munitions if he will appoint a Committee of two Members of this House to inquire into and report upon the statements he has made in Parliament regarding contracts for munitions with the firms of Messrs. Mann and Company, of Leeds, and of Messrs. Burns, Bassick and Company, of New York?
I see no occasion to adopt the course suggested.
Women Workers
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he proposes to fix a minimum wage of £1 a week for all women engaged in the production of munitions; and, if so, at what date this minimum for all women munition workers will be enforced?
It is not proposed to fix a general minimum wage for all women engaged in the production of munitions. The Munitions Labour Supply Committee, however, has recommended that women of eighteen years of age and over, employed on time on munition work customarily done by men, shall be rated at £l per week, reckoned on the usual working hours of the district in question for men in engineering establishments. This recommendation has been adopted and comes into operation at once as regards munition factories for which the Ministry of Munitions is responsible, and has been commended to the favourable consideration of other employers engaged on munition work.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the special problems in respect of the physical health and efficiency of women employed in munition works, and of the dangers and complications arising from exhaustion, overstrain, and unhealthy conditions, and of the need for expert and sympathetic investigation of these problems, he will appoint a Committee of women having industrial and medical knowledge to advise and assist his Department?
A highly qualified Committee on Industrial Fatigue has already been appointed. Two women of great experience are members of this Committee, and my idea in setting up the Committee was to secure and maintain the health and efficiency of munition workers. This Committee has already made many inquiries in connection with the subjects mentioned in my hon. Friend's question. Their proposals with respect to fatigue arising from continuous work, particularly in regard to Sunday labour, are now receiving my careful consideration. In these circumstances I do not think it necessary to appoint any further Committee.
Clyde Workers
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the three Govan shipwrights, sentenced to thirty days' imprisonment for refusing to pay fines of £10 imposed on each by a munitions tribunal, are still in prison; whether he is aware of the state of feeling on the Clyde on this matter and on the Munitions of War Act and its administration; whether any report has been received from Lord Balfour of Burleigh and Mr. Lynden MacAssie, K.C., in regard to the grievances of the Clyde workers under the Act; and what action the Government propose to take?
The answer to the first part of the question is that the fines were paid this morning, and the men released. As regards the rest of the question, I have received an interim report from Lord Balfour of Burleigh and Mr. Lynden MacAssie up till Thursday last, 21st October, when the inquiry was unfortunately suspended owing to the refusal of the local trade union officials to proceed. Both my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland and I have been in close touch with labour conditions in the Clyde district through the reports of the Commissioners above mentioned, through the reports, of my own officers, and also through consultations with the responsible leaders of the trade unions in that important industrial area as well as with the national leaders of the trades concerned. If there are any grievances on the part of Clyde munition workers of which I am not aware this is the result of the suspension of the inquiry, which will at once be renewed as soon as the labour representatives are prepared to go on with it. It is the determination of the Ministry of Munitions thoroughly to sift the causes of unrest in this district.
I should like to ask if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that those three men need not have been imprisoned unless they so desired?
My hon. Friend is perfectly correct. I think that they refused to allow the fines to be paid on their behalf.
Subsistence Allowance
asked the Minister of Munitions if it is with his consent that unmarried transferred munition workers who have dependant relatives are being refused the subsistence allowance which he has promised would be given where necessary and is also promised in Labour Exchange advertisements to men who sign on for war munition service; if he is aware that in consequence of this refusal a Bradford man, to give one instance, who has to maintain a home in Bradford and otherwise provide for his dependant mother and sister, is heavily penalised for signing on as a munition worker by reason of extra expenses on account of board and lodging for himself in a Scottish town where he is now working; and whether he will take steps to redeem his promise in this and other cases?
According to the terms of enrolment, subsistence allowance is promised to war munition volunteers transferred to other districts, where necessary. In the case of a married man leaving his home, the allowance is paid as a matter of course. In the case of a single man, the allowance is not paid unless and until the workman shows that it is necessary for him to maintain or to contribute to the upkeep of two homes, so that his expenses are materially increased by removal. In the particular case referred to by my hon. Friend it rests with the workman to make his claim. I may add that arrangements are on the point of being made whereby the claims of war munition volunteers to subsistence allowance will be examined in the first instance by the local labour advisory boards.
Recruiting
Mr. Bottomley's Statement
asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that a speaker addressing a meeting on the Clapton Orient football ground last Saturday said that he had had conferences with the Minister of Munitions, other Ministers of the Crown, and Lord Derby, and he was in a position to say, as the result of these conferences, that whereas those men who joined the Colours now would join only for the duration of the War and would be entitled to all the benefits of separation allowances, pensions, and everything else which had been provided for them, those who were brought in by compulsion would have to be enlisted under the ordinary military conditions for five or seven years, and their conditions of pensions and allowances would be altogether different; will he say if he has had conferences with the speaker in question and if this speaker was authorised to make the statements quoted; and if Ministers of the Crown have decided in detail the conditions of service under a system of Conscription?
I understand the statement my hon. Friend refers to was one as to the terms and conditions under which, as it was alleged, compulsion if introduced would be introduced. My Noble Friend Lord Derby has informed me most emphatically that he has never discussed with anybody any such terms as those suggested in Mr. Bottomley's statement. Lord Derby is not a Minister of the Crown, and it puts him in a false position if he is referred to in terms suggesting that he has made pronouncements which, if made at all, should come from a Minister of the Crown. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is about to make.
My question was addressed to the Minister of Munitions. The first part of it asks if the statement of this speaker that he had had conferences with the Minister of Munitions was true. Seeing that the Minister of Munitions alone can give an answer, may I address that part of the question to him?
Yes, certainly. I was only just reading it. I am perfectly certain that the speaker, whoever he was, must have been misreported.
Does my right hon. Friend know that "if it is in 'John Bull' it is so"?
Boy Clerks (War Bonus)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if any war bonus has been given to the boy clerks; if not, is it intended to do so; and if this matter has not been considered by the Treasury will it have their attention, in view of the low wages of these boy clerks and of the fact that owing to the increase in the cost of living the expense of board and lodging in many cases exceeds the amount of their wages?
Boy clerks were not given any bonus even under the Post Office award, and the question of giving them a bonus is not under consideration.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think it right that boys who are receiving 15s. per week, and who are living in London, should not receive some consideration, seeing that it is quite impossible for them to live on that wage?
I am afraid that I did not hear what the hon. Member said.
Questions
Relief of Distress (East Coast)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has been able to take any steps with a view to assisting the East Coast towns which are suffering distress on account of the War?
Yes, Sir. The Government Committee on the Prevention and Relief of Distress have approved a scheme for the alleviation of exceptional distress in the watering places on the East Coast, and I have invited representatives of the towns concerned to meet my officials to discuss the details. The necessary funds have been generously provided by the Canadian Government, and it is proposed to make grants to each distressed town for meeting the needs of the lodging-house keepers who have suffered in a peculiar degree from the effects of the War. I am sure that the House will wish me to express its warm thanks to the Government of our Great Dominion for this additional proof of their desire to share in our common burdens.
May I ask whether the term "East Coast" is strictly restricted, or whether it includes towns on the South-East Coast?
It will include any town which has satisfied me it has suffered in this particular way, whether it be on the East Coast or on the South-East Coast. The majority, I believe, are on the East Coast.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the greatest dissatisfaction prevails among the Canadians owing to the way in which they have been robbed by people on the South Coast?
I am not aware of that, and I do not see what on earth it has to do with the question on the Paper.
Artificial Fertilisers (Supply for Farmers)
asked whether the President of the Board of Agriculture has taken any action to secure for farmers an adequate supply of artificial fertilisers for autumn and spring dressings?
Yes, Sir; the President of the Board has appointed a Committee, comprising representatives of his Department, the Scottish Office, the Board of Trade, the Munitions Ministry and the Admiralty, to make such arrangements as may be necessary and desirable to ensure an adequate supply of fertilisers for the use of farmers. The President has asked me to act as chairman. With regard to the work of the Committee so far, I am glad to be able to state that the Sulphate of Ammonia Association is co-operating in a most public spirited manner with the Board of Agriculture in making an arrangement under which sulphate of ammonia in reasonable quantities will be available to farmers for use as an autumn dressing at a very reasonable price, regard being had to its manurial value.
Currency Notes (Enemy Allegations)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any official information showing that not inconsiderable numbers of forged currency notes are now in circulation?
No, Sir. My information is to the contrary effect. May I take this opportunity of drawing attention to the Press notices which appeared on 2nd September and 26th October, in which the Treasury warned the public against statements which have been circulated that currency notes bearing certain specified serial numbers are forgeries. Careful inquiry has failed to find any ground for such allegations, which are believed to have come from enemy sources and to be circulated merely with a view to shaking confidence.
How did this report get into the Press? Has the right hon. Gentleman investigated into this very serious matter?
I am afraid I cannot say how it came to be published.
But it is for the Treasury to inquire. Why have they not done so?
We have only three minutes left, and there are still a large number of questions unanswered.
Finance (No. 3) Bill
General Commissioners
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the powers proposed to be reserved under the Finance (No. 3) Bill by Section 25, Sub-section (4), will empower the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to appoint Inland Revenue officials to act as General Commissioners?
It has never been intended to appoint Inland Revenue officials to act as General Commissioners, and the words which appear to have given rise to the misapprehension have been omitted from the Sub-section.
Excess Profits Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) if a commercial company instituted in the year 1914, and which suffered as regards profits from the action of the naval and military authorities in such way as impressment of vehicles and goods, will be permitted under the Finance Act to submit their cases to the Commissioners for consideration in regard to excess profits; and (2) if commercial companies, which exist under statutory limitations in regard to tenure or statutory charges and prices, will be permitted, under the Finance Bill, to submit their cases to the Commissioners for consideration in regard to excess profits?
These companies, like other companies, would become liable to duty only when their profits exceeded their pre-war profits standard (if any), and also exceeded the percentage standard representing a fair return for the class of trade on the proprietors' capital at stake. In the case of statutory companies, any question of the adequacy of the 6 per cent. rate of return, in view of statutory limitations as to period or con- ditions of tenure, would be matters for consideration of the Board of Referees under Clause 38.
Income Tax Assessment
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is intended that the assessment of Income Tax to be paid by employed persons shall be determined by surveyors of taxes and Commissioners of Inland Revenue; and whether it is proposed that the right of appeal to an independent body shall be taken away and transferred to the General Commissioners selected by Somerset House?
The system of quarterly assessment and collection is intended to apply to weekly wage earners. The assessment will be made by the surveyor of taxes subject to the taxpayer's right of appeal to the General Commissioners, who have not in the past, and will not in the future, be selected by Somerset House.
Building Schemes (Dundee)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the City of Dundee two large municipal and Government building schemes are in progress of being developed; and whether, in view of the Government veto upon work which is not held to be of prime necessity for the defence of the realm, the Government is taking any action in the matter?
I understand that the Government schemes in progress at Dundee are a Labour Exchange and an extension of the post office. Both schemes form the subject of running contracts and involve comparatively small sums during the current year. The attention of my right hon. Friend has been called to the proposal of the Dundee Corporation to erect a new City Hall, and he is in communication with the Corporation with a view to the possible postponement of the work until after the War.
Questions
British Command at Salonika
I beg, in accordance with private notice, to ask the Undersecretary for War who is the officer in command of the British troops on the Græco-Serbian frontier, and whether he has a free hand to undertake such operations as he may think necessary?
The answer to the first part of the question is Lieut.-General Sir Brian Mahon, K.C.V.O., C.B., D.S.O., and, to the second part, his orders are to co-operate with the French.
National Education (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to a resolution of the Queen's County National Teachers' Association, requesting the direct payment of teachers' ordinary salaries in twelve equal monthly instalments; and if he will accede to this request?
I have seen the resolution referred to by the hon. Member and am very familiar with its subject, and, indeed, have been lately busily engaged in endeavouring to find a solution of the question agreeable to both the teachers and the Treasury, but, unfortunately, so far I have failed. Any change of the kind suggested involves considerable permanent increase of administrative expenditure.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if his attention has been called to a resolution of the Portarlington branch of the National Teachers' Association, asking for Mr. Mansfield's reinstatement, and requesting that the Commissioners of Education in Ireland ask the Treasury for all moneys withheld from Mr. and Mrs. Mansfield from the date of their dismissal; and what action he intends taking in the matter?
I cannot trace the particular resolution as having been received by me. I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on the 30th September to the question asked by the hon. Member for North Kerry on this subject.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received a resolution from the Fermanagh County Council on the same subject, and will he interest himself in having this matter settled?
I have received a great many resolutions upon the subject from county councils and others.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what measures the Government intend to take to carry into effect the recommendations of the Vice- regal Commission respecting the National Board of Education; and whether the Board have practically repudiated and refused to comply with those recommendations?
asked why the National Board of Education have not given effect to the recommendation of the Viceregal Committee appointed in 1913; and if he will take steps to have these recommendations carried out by the Board?
Several important changes recommended by the Viceregal Committee are now in operation. It was not, however, considered that the recommendations of the Committee concurred in by the Commissioners, which involved heavy expenditure, could at that date usefully be put before the Treasury, and the present time is still less favourable for submitting proposals for such expenditure.
Are we to understand that the National Board of Education in Ireland governs the Government?
I hope not, Sir!
It looks very much like it!
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many regulations that do not involve an outlay have been acted upon by the Board of Education?
Yes, I believe that is so.
Has the Government taken any means to put any pressure upon this Board, and does the Government govern the Board at all?
The only authority I have with the Board is that if any member dies I appoint his successor.
Dublin Metropolitan Police
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been directed to a resolution passed by the Kingstown Urban District Council, protesting against the change alleged to be in contemplation, whereby the sittings of the divisional justices in the Dublin Metropolitan Police district would be limited to one sitting each week in Kingstown; whether the supposed change, if carried into effect, would disadvantageously affect, not only Kingstown, but the residents of the townships of Black-rock, Dalkey, and Killiney as well; whether local opinion will be consulted before the change, if contemplated, is made; and whether there is any real necessity for such a change?
I have received a copy of the resolution to which the hon. Member refers. As a measure of economy it has been decided to leave unfilled for the present the vacancy which recently occurred among the divisional magistrates of Dublin. In consequence the number of weekly sittings at Kingstown has been reduced from two to one, Thursday being appointed as the day for this one sitting in deference to the understood wishes of the locality. It is not anticipated that the change will be seriously prejudicial to the districts affected, and, though it cannot be expected to be popular, will yet, I hope, be borne cheerfully at the present juncture.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that protests have been received from all the representative bodies in that district in respect to arrangements of which he has spoken?
Yes, I am aware they do not like it.
Parliamentary Police
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that dissatisfaction exists with the police at the House of Commons owing to the new method introduced of taking their weekly holidays, by which the police get two days off together, which causes them to have an interval of from ten to thirteen days before they can receive another holiday; and, seeing that this is a violation of the one day rest in seven principle, which has worked so well and gives satisfaction to all concerned, because the men usually have Saturday or Sunday off, whether he can see his way clear to revert to the old system?
The arrangement by which the House of Commons sits on three days only in the week has necessitated a modification in the system of giving weekly leave to which my hon. friend calls attention. The Commissioner of Police has found it necessary to augment the permanent staff by two men, so that this staff should be so self-contained for re-living for leave and should not be dependent upon the Sessional police for this purpose. Under this arrangement the permanent staff get leave on two Sundays and two week-days in each month, and it must occasionally happen that two leaves occur on consecutive days, or close together.
Vivisection
asked why the recommendation of the Royal Commission on Vivisection in their Report of 1st March, 1912, paragraph 122, that the names of the scientific authorities under the Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876, who recommend licences and sign certificates under that Act, should be published, has been ignored in successive Parliamentary Returns, and whether he will undertake that in the future such recommendation shall be carried into effect?
The paragraph referred to relates to the selection and appointment of an advisory committee, and my predecessor, who consulted the Chairman of the Royal Commission as to the precise scope of the recommendation, was informed by him that it was not the intention of the Commission that the names of the persons who recommend for licences and grant certificates should be published; the object they had in view was to secure the publication of the names of the persons selected by the Secretary of State to form an advisory committee, and effect has been given to their proposal in the annual returns.
London Education Authority (Compulsory Purchase Proposals)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in the case of compulsory purchase proposals by the local education authority for London to which the Order as to publication of notices made by the Board on the 28th October, 1904, applies, the Board will regard the statutory requirements as satisfied by an advertisement inserted once in each week in a newspaper for three consecutive weeks; and, if so, whether he will amend the Order accordingly?
It is necessary before the Board can consider an alteration of their Order of the 28th October, 1904, for an application to be made to them by the London County Council. If such an application is made my right hon. Friend would be prepared to make some modification of the requirements of that Order.
Business of the House
Can the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Munitions give any information as to the business for next week?
On Tuesday the Prime Minister will make his promised statement, and, as I have already indicated, the matter will be open for discussion. On Wednesday some new Ways and Means Resolutions will be submitted, and the Committee stage of the Finance Bill will be continued. It will be further resumed on Thursday.
Will the statement be made on the Motion for Adjournment?
It will be on the Adjournment.
What is the subject of the Ways and Means Resolutions?
Do they refer to the Finance Bill?
I understand it has already been indicated by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there will be Resolutions of this character in Ways and Means.
Will the right hon. Gentleman convey to the Prime Minister the fact that again to-day a large number of questions have not been answered, and will he tell us what is the reason why we should not be allowed to go through the Order Paper until all the questions are answered, especially on Thursdays, when there is usually a number of special questions?
The reason is that the Standing Order forbids it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Prime Minister to come down to the House and move the suspension of the Standing Order?
I will convey to my right hon. Friend what my hon. Friend has said.
Resolved, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday next."—[ Mr. Lloyd George. ]
Orders of the Day
Clubs (Temporary Provisions) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Order Clubs to be Closed during Specified Hours.)
(1) The Secretary of State may by order direct that all clubs (whether or not intoxicating liquor is supplied therein) within any such area as may be specified in the order shall be closed during such hours as may be so specified (commencing at an hour not earlier than that at which premises licensed for the sale of intoxicating liquors by retail situate in the same place as such clubs are for the time being required to be closed and ending at an hour not later than six o'clock in the morning):
Provided that the local authority for the purpose of this Act may grant a licence exempting from the provisions of the order, either absolutely or subject to such conditions or limitations as may be specified in the licence—
( a ) any club on any special occasion;
( b ) any club where it is proved that, owing to the nature and hours of employment of members thereof, or for any other special reason, it is expedient that the club should be so exempted.
(2) If any club is kept open or the club premises or any part thereof are used in contravention of any such order, or, in cases where such a licence as aforesaid has been granted, in contravention of any condition of the licence, the club shall be liable to be declared an illegal club, and—
( a ) the occupier of the premises and any person having control of the club, and the secretary or other principal officer of the club shall each be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding three months, unless he proves that the contravention was committed without his knowledge or consent, and the Court may in addition by order prohibit him from taking part or assisting in the management of or being interested in any club; and
( b ) any other person proved to have been on the club premises in contravention of the order or the conditions of the licence shall be liable on sum-
(3) If any person so prohibited as aforesaid takes part or assists in the management of or is interested in a club, the club shall be liable to be declared an illegal club.
I have several Amendments on the Paper. I have gone through the Bill carefully and I believe they will all be improvements if the Home Office will accept them. I beg first to move, at the end of Sub-section ( b ), to insert,
"(2) Any licence granted under the proviso to Sub-section (1) of this Section may be varied or revoked, and if it is revoked the club to which it related shall cease to be exempted from the provisions of the order."
The object of this Amendment is that there may be power to vary or revoke licences already granted by the proper authority. As I read the Bill there is no power either to vary or revoke a licence once it has been granted, and it is perfectly obvious that circumstances may arise which may make it necessary to do this.
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has very carefully considered my hon. Friend's suggestion, and regrets that he is unable to accept this Amendment, as he does not think it would add to the value of the Clause.
I must complain of being treated in this way. It is the style in which we are constantly treated now. You come down here, having thought out a question, and the Government give no reasons whatever for rejecting a perfectly sensible proposal. I pointed out in my remarks that there is no power in the Bill as it stands to vary or revoke a licence. Does the Home Secretary really mean to say that he does not want to have that power? I think we ought to have some explanation. We are not being treated properly.
I can assure my hon. Friend that there is every desire on the part of myself and those who are associated with me to treat both him and every member of the Committee properly. I have been most careful to consider the proposal that has been suggested by my hon. Friend. I think he knows me well enough to know that I have no sort of amour propre about the form of the Bill, because I have benefited before by the suggestions of his ingenious mind. In this case, although his suggestion is ingenious, I do not think it is necessary, not because, as I think I caught him saying, it is desired to leave the Bill in a shape so that no licence could be withdrawn or varied. If that were the result, it would be a most absurd result, and I should be a very obstinate Minister if I did not at once accept such a palpable and necessary correction. The first answer to my hon. Friend is—I know he will consider it with his usual candour and fairness—that every licence that is granted under this Clause itself would contain that provision. You would not grant to a club, for instance, to the Press Club, which, of course, has to be open for the convenience of its members at an unusually late hour—you would not grant them a cast-iron privilege which nothing on earth, whatever the circumstances, could alter. You would grant them a licence subject, of course, to the condition that that licence might be revoked by the same authority that granted it. There is, therefore, no difference in substance between my hon. Friend and myself. I resist his proposal, not because I am anxious to stick to the precise terms of the Bill, but because, having consulted those who advised me and having thought about the matter myself, I am quite sure it would not add anything to the value of the Bill.
If I showed any irritation, I may say that I am now quite mollified. With regard to the actual point that the Order itself will contain what I suggest, let me remind the Home Secretary that again and again the Home Office and other offices have relied upon that sort of power, and that when the time has come they have not made use of it. I remember two cases in which Home Office prosecutions were instituted against alien enemies, and then they have not been asked to deport those alien enemies. I know two spy cases of that character. The Home Office does not always use the powers it might use. I think we ought to have the provision made in the Bill, but I do not press the Amendment, and ask leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "of" ["in contravention of any condition of the licence"], to insert the words "or non-compliance with."
I hope this Amendment will be accepted, although I admit it is not such a good one as the previous one. Contravention is one thing and non-compliance is a totally different thing. I think both words are necessary. The Amendment will not make the Bill weaker, but only a little clearer, and it may save legal hair-splitting and arguments in the Courts of Law.
My hon. Friend was so reasonable in withdrawing the last Amendment that I should like to take this one from him if I could. He himself has said that this particular child is even less attractive than the one recently killed, so that he can hardly expect this bantling to be accepted. As to the use of the word "contravention," he says that lawyers will split hairs about it if we are not careful. I have a proper respect for all persons who are held in high honour in places where hairs are split, but I cannot see what is the difference between contravention and non-compliance. On the principle that it is better to have one word, if a second will not improve it, it is better to leave this Bill as it is.
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), paragraph ( a ), after the word "conviction" ["liable on summary conviction to imprisonment"], to insert the words "to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or."
I may say that I am not at all ashamed of my offspring. The Home Secretary may treat them with contempt, but there may be degrees of value and virtue in them, and they may all be good. I really think the words I propose must have dropped out. I hope he will accept the Amendment, because if he looks at the end of Clause 2, or at Sub-section (3) of Clause (3), he will see that there is there the alternative of a fine of £50 or imprisonment. I cannot see why the penalty is not put upon the same level in all three cases.
4.0 P.M.
I quite recognise that here my hon. Friend makes an acute criticism, and one which is quite worth while the attention of the Committee for a few moments. It is not that any slip has- been made in the drafting. The Bill has been drawn in this way for reasons which I will point out, and it will be for the Committee to consider whether they wish it altered. I think it is best to leave it as it is for reasons I will explain. The Licensing Act contains a Section which is on exactly the same general lines as that part of the Bill in which my hon. Friend proposes to insert this Amendment. The real reason for drawing the Clause as it stands is because it does not seem reasonable that you should impose stiffer penalties in the case of a club than you would impose in the case of a similar kind of offence on licensed premises. It seemed to us, drawing the Bill as best we could, that where the two things stood on a level in respect of the offence that the penalties and the punishment should also correspond. I was going to say my hon. Friend knows much too much about the inside of a Police Court, but I would rather say about the way in which the law is applied in summary jurisdiction, not to be aware that when an Act of Parliament says the penalty of imprisonment shall be imposed it does not mean that the magistrate has no power to impose a fine instead of imprisonment. It is a general provision of the law that whenever a magistrate is given, by Statute, power to imprison he has discretion to fine. The thing which corresponds to three months' imprisonment is a fine of £25, so that the real effect of my hon. Friend's proposal is to make the fine bigger than it would be if we left the Clause as it is. It would also make the fine bigger than it would be in the case of licensed premises, and it was in order that the two things might be on an exact parallel that we thought it right here to speak simply of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, which implies the alternative of a corresponding fine, and not to insert such words as my hon. Friend proposes. It seemed to us desirable by the very language of the Bill, where we could, to show that we regarded this as an offence for which imprisonment would be a proper punishment. There is much too much tendency when you are dealing with this class of case for tribunals to think that gentlemen are not sent to prison, and that the proper thing to do with gentlemen is to fine them, and we thought it was not altogether a bad thing to put in the forefront of the Bill that imprisonment is what Parliament had in mind. The second reason was this. My hon. Friend referred to Clause 2, and pointed out that there is a provision about a £50 fine as an alternative to three months' imprisonment. The reason there is that there is no analogy to be drawn between what we are proposing now and any provision in the licensing law. We are creating there a new offence for which we propose what seems an appropriate maximum fine. I hope my hon. Friend will not think it is obstinacy on my part, but I hope, in view of the explanation, he will leave the Bill as it stands, though I quite admit that the point he has raised is a serious point and one which it was proper and reasonable to mention in the course of the Debate.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 2.—(Prohibition Against Use of Clubs by Prostitutes and Gamesters.)
If any person having control of a club knowingly permits it to be used as an habitual resort or place of meeting of reputed prostitutes, whether the object of their so resorting or meeting is or is not prostitution, or of persons who have been convicted of offences under the enactments relating to gaming or betting or gaming or betting houses, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding three months.
I beg to move, after the word "club" ["if any person having control of a club"], to insert the words "whether in an area in respect of which an order has been made under Section one of this Act or not."
I think this is really an important Amendment, for, as the Bill stands, it might and probably would be questioned whether the Clause referred to all clubs or only to clubs in the prescribed area. I believe it is meant to refer to all clubs whether they are in this prescribed area or not, and probably that would be the interpretation put upon it in the High Court, but I think we might as well make the point quite clear that it refers to all clubs.
The intention which my hon. Friend has is really quite plainly the effect of the Bill as it stands. In the first Clause it is on the face of it plain that the Bill applies to clubs within the area specified. In the third Clause it is equally plain that it applies to clubs within the area specified. It follows necessarily that Clause 2, which contains no such limitations, does what it says and means, as it reads, that it applies to a club. The only limitation is that since the whole Act of Parliament necessarily is limited to England and Wales, it applies to clubs in England and Wales; and with all respect to my hon. Friend's ingenuity and unfailing good temper on these occasions, it is not a reasonable thing to go altering this Bill in this respect, because it is perfectly plain and there is not the slightest reason for adding these words.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move to leave out the word "knowingly" ["knowingly permits it to be used"].
This is really an important matter. I see no reason why you should place upon the prosecution the burden of proving that the manager of the club knew the character of the woman or other persons who were admitted to the premises. I have a case in mind. It concerns me personally very seriously, not that there was any question of my being in the dock or fined, but it was a question arising out of an election where there was absolute guilt on the part of the person prosecuted, but because of a word of this character partisan feeling, as I believe, came in on the bench, and the man got off because the prosecution was unable to prove knowing guilt on the part of the person who was charged. I say here it will make it very much easier if you omit this word "knowingly." It will often be very difficult indeed to satisfy the bench that the person prosecuted, the manager, knew the character of the people who were being admitted. It should, of course, be left to the defendant to satisfy the Court that he was unaware and had no reason to suspect.
The question which my hon. Friend raises by this Amendment is one which in various Bills the House of Commons from time to time has occasion to consider. As a general rule I think it is the duty of the prosecution to make out its case, and it is not as a general principle a good thing to say that an accused person who says nothing, by the fact that he says nothing, will be found to be guilty. I believe that to be, generally speaking, a very sound principle in the administration of justice. I quite agree there are exceptions which have to be made. The question is whether an exception should be made here. I think not. This Clause, which is a very valuable Clause, is modelled upon Section 76 of the Licensing Consolidation Act, 1910. Allowing for the fact that one refers to licensed premises and the other to a club, there is no difference between the two Clauses. Section 76 of the Licensing Act, 1910, says:—
"The holder of a justices' licence shall not knowingly permit his premises to be the habitual resort or place of meeting of reputed prostitutes, whether the object of their so resorting or meeting is or is not prostitution."
We are following a form of words which already is to be found in the Statute Book. Of course, it is to be found in the Statute Book long before 1910. The Act of 1910 was merely a Consolidation Statute. If we were to accept my hon. Friend's proposal we should be departing from the whole scheme which has been found to work quite satisfactorily and properly in the case of licensed premises. Once again, I say it is not right because we find it necessary to take some special powers in relation to clubs that we should take that opportunity of making the law with reference to clubs stiffer than the law is with reference to licensed premises. For these reasons I hope my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment.
I took exception to the inclusion of all clubs in this Bill in connection with this particular Clause, and the right hon. Gentleman has just pointed out that this is a very valuable and important Clause, and I agree with him there, too. But I got no answer that satisfied me to the protest which I made, and which I am going to make now. Why, I ask, cannot the question be dealt with on the grounds specified in this valuable Clause 2. It appears to me it would be perfectly possible. Suppose you had limited the Bill to the evil against which everyone wishes to guard. Why cannot it be dealt with in this way? Limit it practically to this particular Clause, and for that purpose I would retain the word "knowingly," and direct your indictment against clubs suspected of being knowingly used as a habitual resort or a place of meeting of reputed prostitutes, whether the object of their so resorting or meeting is or is not prostitution, or persons guilty of offences connected with gambling and betting. Why cannot you bring in a Bill limited to that particular class of offence, which is the evil that everyone complains of and which everyone thinks ought to be stopped? There is another ground. It appears to me, if you are in earnest, it is perfectly ridiculous that this should be a Bill limited to the duration of the War.
The right hon. Gentleman's remarks are not in order on this Amendment. We are discussing merely the question whether the word "knowingly" in this Clause should stand part or be left out, and the broader consideration does not arise here.
Does it arise anywhere else in the Bill?
As far as I followed the right hon. Gentleman, his remarks were addressed to the question whether the last Clause, Clause 1, should stand part of the Bill. He seems to be in favour of Clause 2 standing part of the Bill. The general review that he desires to make would be more appropriate on the Third Reading of the Bill.
I will not continue the argument I was using. If I thought I had the slightest chance of meeting with success I would renew it on the Third Reading of the Bill.
The Home Secretary defended the word "knowingly" on the ground that it appears in some previous Act of Parliament. It is not desirable to follow a bad example. In this Clause I think the word is better left out. We are concerned with the person who is controlling the club. If he permits it to be used, not as a resort or place of meeting, but as ["an habitual resort or place of meeting of reputed prostitutes"], then he is subject to certain penalties. I do not think we ought to give him in addition to that the protection of the word "knowingly." If he is controlling the club, and he allows it to be used as ["an habitual resort or place of meeting of reputed prostitutes"]—that is, persons whom everybody else but this controller knows to be prostitutes— then I do not think we ought to give him the additional protection of the word "knowingly"; otherwise the legal ingenuity he would be able to employ would probably enable him to escape a penalty.
The hon. Member cannot have caught the explanation that was given by the Home Secretary in regard to this matter. The Home Secretary did not rely on a previous Act for the sake of showing that because the word "knowingly" had been once enacted it ought always to be enacted, but on the ground that there should be an even balance kept between those persons who resort to clubs and those persons who resort to what are much less deserving institutions—namely, public-houses. It would be monstrous if the keepers of public-houses should be protected by the insertion of the word "knowingly" in Acts of Parliament relating to the conduct of their business, while a person who runs a club should not have the same protection that Boniface has. I hope, for these reasons, my hon. Friend's arguments will not be considered.
Amendment negatived.
I do not propose to move the next Amendment—to leave out the words "an habitual" and to insert the word "a"—but I beg to move, after the word "prostitutes" ["place of meeting of habitual prostitutes"], to insert the words "or of women or girls of known immoral character."
This is an important distinction, and it is well understood. The words that I propose to insert are taken from Section 2, (1) ( a ), of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885. It is one thing to be a prostitute, for that means taking money for vice; but a person can be of known immoral character without being a prostitute, or taking any money or being known to take any money. I think, especially in view of what the character of some of these night clubs has been reputed to be, that the point I put forward is distinctly an important one. I hope, therefore, that my Amendment will be accepted.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will stoutly resist this extraordinary proposal. What the word "prostitute" conveys is a well-known meaning. It occurs to me at the moment that an excellent description was given by a Latin author—I think it is Juvenal, "Ad Circum jussas prostare puellas." Not necessarily Piccadilly Circus, or Oxford Circus, but any open place of public resort, such as a circus in Rome. That represents a woman whose profession is ascertainable, and about which there can be no doubt. The hon. Gentleman actually proposes to insert the words "or of women or girls of known immoral character." There are many people in this country who would consider a woman or girl an im- moral character because she smokes cigarettes, or wears short skirts or transparent stockings, or because of other such foolish criteria. I protest most strongly against the introduction of words which would have a serious effect. The House will remember the case of Miss Cass, and how grievously the law went wrong on that point. So might any police officer. I think we should confine ourselves to the word "prostitutes," and give no sort of encouragement to any such disastrous proposal as that of my hon. Friend.
I think, on consideration, my hon. Friend will see, both for the reason stated by the hon. Gentleman (Sir J. D. Rees) and for others which are not less obvious, this is not a convenient or desirable Amendment. I may remind my hon. Friend that the words in question also occur in Section 76 of the Consolidation Act, 1910, and they are contained in many later Acts, as my right hon. Friend has pointed out. They have been found to work well in the administration of Acts relating to vice. They have been found admirable for the purpose for which they were inserted in those Acts. I do not want to enter into an argument which involves repetition of what my right hon. Friend has said, but I would point out that it is not reasonable or desirable that clubs should be exposed to more severe restrictions than public-houses. I would also point out that I have familiarised myself with a good deal of the actual details of cases regarding the conduct of these clubs, and I can assure my hon. Friend that the amount of mischief that was done by women or girls of known immoral character, in the sense in which he distinguishes them from prostitutes, namely, prostitutes taking money—the amount of mischief that was actually traced to women or girls of immoral character who have not taken money, is extremely small.
Even if it existed at all.
I do not think it did.
I shall not press this Amendment; it is no use pressing anything against the Government.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, after the word "months" ["for a term not exceeding three months"], to insert the words "or to both such fine and such imprisonment."
It is simply a question whether you should put into the Clause the power to inflict both fine and imprisonment. The words of the Clause provide for a fine or imprisonment with or without hard labour. I think it is very desirable to have both clearly Stated, especially in certain cases; as, for instance, a club that has been very large and profitable.
I am sorry to seem to be so consistently opposed to my hon. Friend, but I do not think that this Amendment would improve the Bill. The ordinary scheme has been followed in numerous Acts of Parliament divising punishment imposed summarily. The hon. Member desires to have the power to fine and the power to imprison in order to meet certain cases, but I do not see what the special case is. My own feeling is that if the case was a case deserving imprisonment, imprisonment ought to be given, and fine has nothing to do with it. Of course, if it is a trumpery case, then a fine is the proper thing. I cannot see how we shall improve the Bill by inventing a new form of punishment, for that is what it would amount to.
Amendment negatived
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 3.—(Inspection of Clubs.)
(1) With a view to securing the observance of this Act all clubs within the area specified in any order made by the Secretary of State under this Act may be inspected by any officer of police not below the rank of inspector, and, in the case of clubs which there is reason to believe are frequented by members of any of His Majesty's Forces, by any person authorised for the purpose by the competent naval or military authority under the Defence of the Realm (Consolidation) Regulations, 1914, and for that purpose any such officer or person shall at all times, whether by day or night, have a right to enter, if need be by force, any premises within the area which he has reason to suspect are being used as a club, and to examine, search, and inspect the same, or any part thereof, and if he has reason to suspect that an offence against this Act has been or is being committed thereon, Or that the club is otherwise being carried on contrary to law, may take the names and addresses of all persons found therein, and may seize any books and papers relating to the business of the club.
(2) If the officer of police or other person making the inspection has reasonable ground to suppose that any name or address given to him is false, he may require evidence of the correctness of the name and address, and may, if the person fails upon demand to give his name or address or the required evidence, apprehend him without warrant, and take him, as soon as practicable, before a justice of the peace, and if any person required under this Section to give his name and address fails to give the same or gives a false name or address, or gives false evidence with respect to the name and address, he shall be liable on summary conviction in respect of each offence to a fine not exceeding five pounds.
(3) If any person obstructs or delays any such officer of police or person in the execution of his duties under this Section he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for a term not exceeding three months, and if the entry of any such officer or person to any premises is delayed by locked doors or other obstruction, the club shall be liable to be declared an illegal club, unless it is proved that there was good reason for locking the doors or such other obstruction.
(4) Where any police officer or person duly authorised by the competent naval or military authority has in pursuance of the powers conferred by this Act entered any premises which are or which he has reason to suspect are being used as a club, and it appears to the officer or person that the premises are being used for the purposes of unlawful gaming, the officer or person may exercise all such powers as are conferred by the provisions of the Gaming Act, 1845, or Section forty-eight of the Metropolitan Police Act, 1839, on an officer of police who has entered premises in pursuance of an authority or warrant granted there under by the Commissioners of Police for the metropolis or a justice.
I beg to move in Subsection (1), after the word "inspector" ["may be inspected by any officer of police not below the rank of inspector"], to insert the words, "upon an order given for that purpose by a justice of the peace having jurisdiction within the area."
My hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Rawlinson) is not here, but I know he attaches considerable importance to this Amendment, which stands in his name, and as it, to a certain extent, bears out a suggestion which I made on the Second Reading, I propose to move it. The object of my hon. and learned Friend is to ensure that there shall be some person rather more responsible than an inspector of police who shall have power to say whether or not a particular club shall be visited. I do not myself see any great objection to the proposal. I do not know what the Home Secretary will have to say upon it. Of course, it may entail a little more trouble on the part of the police, but, after all, it only means going to the magistrate and asking for the order. There are no conditions attached. As I read the Amendment, it will be within the power of the magistrate to give an order if he thinks fit. He can give an order when the request is made. I think it would be very much better if my right hon. Friend had confined his Bill to inspection of clubs by the police. I would have given way to this extent: that any inspector of police might at any time inspect any club, without an order from anyone, providing that it was confined to that. I do not see the object of going any further. We shall not make people virtuous, or prevent them doing what they ought not to do, by closing a club, where they do not go, at a certain hour. I throw this out as a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman, because I presume he will be the person to administer this Act, and he may perhaps follow out my suggestion when he administers the Act. It is too late now to make a speech on Clause 1, but if I could get any encouragement from the right hon. Gentleman I would not press this particular Amendment.
The hon. Baronet has made it quite plain that the part of the Bill which has his sympathy and assent is the part which provides for inspection; therefore, so far as this Clause is concerned, it is a Clause which has an object which he does not in itself resist. The only suggestion now made by the hon. Baronet is that the inspection by a superior officer of police, or by the military authorities as the case may be, shall be an inspection which takes place only upon an order given by a justice of the peace. If the justice of the peace, who after all is a judicial and not an executive person, has to judge on the material put before him, whether there should be an inspection or not, then, though I might not agree with the proposal now made, I could understand it. I can quite understand the argument used, that before a policeman goes into a club it is right that some material shall be put before the justice for him to judge. But the Committee will see that that is not what is now proposed. It is really putting in an application to a magistrate, without setting up any sort of standard by which the magistrate is to act, and, so far as I can see, it is really turning the justice of the peace for this purpose into the position of a policeman's official and executive superior. With great respect I must resist it on principle. The official superior of the inspectors of police is the Commissioner of Police, and the Home Secretary has got to be answerable in the House of Commons for the Commissioner of Police in controlling the Force in the way in which public opinion requires, and has to give explanations at this box. It would be wrong, theoretically and practically, to introduce into that machinery the justice of the peace.
The Committee has to choose between two things. We must either say that there is to be inspection by superior officials of police who are controlled by the Commissioner of Police, and who, if they abuse their power and reduce the inspection to an absurdity by unnecessarily worrying people, would speedily get the police into trouble both in the House and in the country, or else we must say that no police are to be allowed inside a club until they satisfy a magistrate that they have got evidence, which the magistrate regards as sufficient, to justify them in entering the club. It is just because that second alternative will not be effective that, as my hon. Friend himself says, it is necessary; to find something not quite so difficult. The truth is that once you depart from this you cannot stop until you say that those who are executively responsible for the police must see that the powers in the Bill, which are put into the control of inspectors, are reasonably used. As the question is now raised, I may say that I had already communicated with the Commissioner of Police to inquire how he thought this Bill should be administered, if Parliament thought fit to pass it into law, and it is clearly understood that, while there is a general power of inspection given here, the object of the Bill is to stamp out a recognised evil, which, of course, is far from being commensurate with the clubs of London, and is to be found only in certain places; and that these powers of inspection are not to be used for the purpose of worrying unnecessarily well-known and established institutions, whether they are what are called West-End clubs or are what are called workmen's clubs. That is not the object, and that is not the way in which it shall be worked. This, however, is administrative. We shall make a mistake if we introduce a judicial authority into this business. In all these matters we are not asking them to exercise any judicial function at all.
In the circumstances I will not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (4), to leave out the word "Commissioners," and to insert instead thereof the word "Commissioner."
I am a little disappointed that, after all my study and my efforts to improve this very valuable Bill, I have not been more successful. I have not got a single Amendment accepted by the Government, but this Amendment I think will be accepted. I think that there must be a mistake in the Bill. If you look at Clause 6, which is the Interpretation Clause, you will see that it was never contemplated that more than one Commissioner should grant an authority or warrant. What is contemplated is, that if you were in the Metropolitan district one Commissioner should grant the authority or warrant, and if you are in the City of London another Commissioner should do so. It will not be at all necessary—in fact it will not be possible—to have two Commissioners granting any warrant or authority at all. I feel confident that the word "Commissioners" was a mistake of the draftsman.
I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for calling attention to this matter. My impression is that if he would look at the Statutes referred to in the Sub-section, namely, the Gaming Act of 1845 and the Metropolitan Police Act of 1839, he will find that the Sections of these Statutes that are being brought into the present Statute speak of Commissioners of Police. I am not quite certain of this, as I have not had time to look it up, but I will make it my business to inquire into it. It is better not to attempt to make the alteration at the moment, but, as may very likely be the case, if my hon. Friend turns out to be right, I will see that in another place this very necessary change is made. I think that this is the last of the proposals of my hon. Friend. Quotation, I know, is a very dangerous occupation, but I see him now holding up his hand and saying, what I believe to be the words of Shakespeare,
"All my pretty ones! Did you say all?"
I hope that the conversation which we have had together on the subject may result in the omission of the word "Commissioners" and the substitution of the word "Commissioner" in another place.
I think that there is, something in this objection. I would suggest to the Home Secretary that the words should be "a Commissioner of Police."
Amendment negatived.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 5.—(Provisions as to Registration of New Clubs.)
CLAUSE 6.—(Interpretation.)
Question, "That these Clauses stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 7.—(Short Title and Duration.)
Motion made, and Question proposed,. "That this Clause stand part of the Bill."
It is provided in this Clause that this Act shall not extend to Scotland or Ireland. I asked the right hon. Gentleman the other day the reason for this, and he told me that the people of Scotland did not sit up late at night. I would ask now, supposing that these clubs in London are closed and that the people controlling them want to open in Edinburgh, Glasgow, or Dublin, what provision is there under this Bill to prevent them from doing so?
The reason why this Bill applies only to England and Wales is partly a reason of convenience of expression and drafting. I am not for a moment saying that the law relating to clubs is to be regarded as part of the law relating to licensed premises. But still so far as there is statute law relating to clubs at present it is not a law common to the whole United Kingdom; it is a law which is part of the licensing law, which, as hon. Members know very well, is a different law in England from what it is in Scotland and Ireland. Therefore you would have to have a Clause which very elaborately applied this Bill, with a great number of adjustments, to Scotland and Ireland. I did make inquiries both of the Scottish and Irish authorities in order to ascertain whether there was at present any need for such legislation, and I may tell hon. Members who take an interest in those two countries that I was assured on all hands that there was no need for this legislation either in Scotland or Ireland. If the hon. Member's anticipation is realised and all these unpleasant people go immediately to Scotland or Ireland, all I shall think about it as English Home Secretary is that we shall have got rid of a very inconvenient part of the population.
It may be quite true that we shall have got rid of a very inconvenient part of the population, but the deterioration of the morals of young officers, which it is the object of this Bill to prevent, will go on just the same. Apparently the right hon. Gentleman does not care about that, provided it does not affect places in England. I differ with the right hon. Gentleman there. However, I have not any experience myself of these things, but in reference to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, that people do not sit up late, either in Scotland or Ireland, I do not know what evidence he has had, and I do not know about Ireland, but I should say that people sit up as late in the big towns of Scotland as they do in England. I have never heard that Scotsmen were more moral than Englishmen; on the contrary, I remember on certain occasions, when the Ice Cream Bill, and other Bills, were discussed in this House, it was said that morals in Scotland were certainly not those which would command themselves to the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman must not close his eyes to the fact that something may be necessary in this particular direction. I must say that I have very grave suspicion, which, I fancy, is shared by my hon. Friend, that hon. Members for Ireland and Scotland, while they have no objections to these rules being applied to people in England, do not want them applied to their own country.
We never asked for them to be applied to England.
If the hon. and learned Gentleman desires some modification in the Bill, as I do myself, I am sure that his support would have a very far-reaching effect. I understood that the idea was to have the same restrictions for everyone, and, if that is so, why should there not be the same law for Irishmen as for Englishmen. The right hon. Gentleman now tries to make out that Scotsmen and Irishmen are more moral than Englishmen. I disagree with that.
We have had the police report and the reports from the military authorities, and as far as we know in Scotland we have had no case, either in Edinburgh, Glasgow, or Aberdeen, or in any of the large cities there, of these temptations being largely placed before young officers. I do not see, therefore, what is the necessity of including Scotland, or perhaps Ireland, in this Bill, nor do I see why it cannot be extended to Scotland later on if it is found necessary to do so. At the present time there exists, as I am informed by the military authorities in Scotland, no need for any measure of this kind.
The hon. Baronet threw out a challenge as to what Members for Scotland thought of the exclusion of that country. I am not going into the question of the relative morality and respectability of the peoples in the three parts of the Kingdom, but we have heard what the hon. and gallant Member has said as to the verdict of the military authorities in Scotland, and the fact remains that, whereas all the authorities are agreed that the Bill is really necessary for London, all the authorities in Scotland, and public sentiment, are agreed that no such regulating Bill is necessary for that country.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Closing of Clubs.)
The competent naval or military authority or the Minister of Munitions may, by Order, require all or any registered clubs within any area specified in the Order to be closed except during such hours and for such purposes as may be specified in the Order, either generally or as respects the members of any of His Majesty's Forces mentioned in the Order, and if the occupier of the premises and the secretary and any person having control of the registered club shall fail to comply with the Order he shall be guilty of an offence, and the competent naval or military authority, or the Minister of Munitions, may cause such steps to be taken as may be necessary to enforce compliance with the Order.
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
In moving the Second Reading of this Clause, I think I may infer that I shall have the powerful support of the Home Secretary. When he rose in regard to one of the Amendments moved by my hon. Friend (Mr. King), as to all of which it may be said that if he did not kill "he did not strive officiously to keep alive," one of the reasons he gave in resisting it was that clubs and licensed premises were on the same footing, and that he could see no reason for treating them differently. That is my case in justification for this new Clause. It is frankly an effort to import into this Bill, in the same words almost, mutatis mutandis, except with the addition of the Minister of Munitions, the tenth of the statutory rules under the Defence of the Realm Act, 1914, which provides that the competent and naval and military authorities may order or require all or any licensed premises to be closed during such hours and for such purposes as may be specified through General Order in respect of members of His Majesty's Forces mentioned in the Order. Under Clause 3 the Bill provides that where clubs are frequented by members of His Majesty's Forces the military authorities may enter and examine or seize the books, and so forth; but there is no authority given to the military and naval authorities and the Ministry of Munitions under the Bill to close a club during such hours, and for such purposes as may be specified, in the same way as may be done by the naval and military authorities in regard to licensed houses. This seems to give the clubs, amongst other things, an unfair competition with licensed houses.
Licence holders all through the country, it is admitted, have very loyally carried out the Orders which have been made— really, very necessarily, drastic and autocratic Orders—by the military authorities; and I submit that if licensed houses have to close at nine o'clock, why should not clubs also be closed? The Bill practically nullifies the military order in this behalf in the areas to which it applies. Lest it should be thought that I am exaggerating the case, I would point out that in one city with which I am acquainted there are twenty-six clubs of which ten close before midnight, fifteen at midnight and one after midnight. If it is necessary for licensed houses to be under military control, one would think that it is equally necessary both for the naval and military authorities, and everybody else, that clubs should be under such control. This difficulty, or this discrepancy if it can be so called, has led to a very awkward conflict of Orders, and the disallowing by the Home Secretary of Orders which have been passed in some cases. For instance, where licensed houses in a city are closed at nine o'clock, the General Officer has no command over the clubs, and the bench of magistrates have tried to deal with the matter, but the Home Secretary was under the necessity of disallowing their Order.
As to the conduct of the clubs, I am not here to impugn it at all. Many of these clubs are very good institutions; I have no doubt, in fact I know, that many of them are working men's clubs, which are very well conducted. I know of another one which goes by the name of the "War Office," because of the continuous strife which prevails therein. All clubs are not of the same class. Why should institutions like theatres, the Hippodrome, the Empire, and so on, be compelled to close their bars at 9 p.m. for the consumption of stimulants while the clubs do not close at that hour? This question has been dealt with on former occasions and has been debated, and I do not wish therefore to discuss it to-night at any length. I believe I have given arguments which go to support the Clause which stands in my name, and I cannot imagine how the Home Secretary can do other than support it after his obiter dictum, which I carefully noted in dealing with my hon. Friend's Amendment regarding the word "knowingly."
My hon. Friend advanced an argument in favour of this Clause by drawing a comparison between the restrictions on public-houses which are closed at certain hours, while clubs remain open. But I submit that it has nothing to do with this Bill. The present Bill is brought in to deal with an evil relating to certain night clubs, and when it was introduced it was not intended to deal with the question whether occupiers of licensed houses were being competed with fairly or unfairly by certain clubs. Therefore I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not accept this new Clause. The title of the Bill is rather wide, and I think the Amendment may possibly be in order, but it is clearly beyond the Bill's intention, which has nothing to do with competition between public-houses and clubs. I trust the right hon. Gentleman who has gone very far in the direction of drastic legislation will not accept this Amendment.
I would point out to the hon. Baronet that it is not the case that there is no power at present to secure such restrictions as these with reference to clubs. There is the emergency legislation in the Intoxicating Liquor (Temporary Restriction) Act, that gives the justices power to limit the hours during which premises in any given area are open for the sale of intoxicating liquors, whether licensed public-houses or clubs. It is quite a mistake to suppose that mo such power exists. I do not think, therefore, that we could introduce this Clause into a Bill which deals with another subject, and I ask the hon. Baronet to withdraw his Amendment, which does not seem to relate to the object which we have in view in bringing forward this measure.
( indistinctly heard ); Though this Clause is not within the scope of the Bill, the object of my hon. Friend's new Clause is to remove difficulties between the justices and the naval and military authorities who make an Order in the same district, and to give the Ministry of Munitions the same power as those naval and military authorities. If it is a question of making a new regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act to apply to clubs as well as to public-houses, perhaps that would meet the view of my hon. Friend. If the hon. Gentleman says it can be done in that way, perhaps the difficulty may be overcome. If the right hon. Gentleman can see his way to submitting a new regulation, perhaps my hon. Friend's object may be secured.
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will confer with me about it.
It seems to me that the efficiency of the Bill would be affected if the authorities under it are multiplied. That is not a desirable thing to do, nor do I think in legislation of this character clubs and public-houses should be put in the same category. I think the hon. Gentleman should withdraw the Amendment.
I beg to refer the Home Secretary to a letter which he wrote to the Wrexham justices on 27th September, in which he said:—
"In reply to your letter of the 22nd instant, forwarding for approval an Order made on the 20th instant by the licensing justices for the borough of Wrexham under the Intoxicating Liquor (Temporary Restriction) Act, I am directed by the Secretary of State to say that he regrets that he is unable to approve the Order. He appreciates the desire of the justices to meet the wishes of the military authorities by extending to clubs the restrictions as regards the sale of intoxicating liquor to invalid or convalescent soldiers imposed on licensed premises by the Order recently made by General Mackinnon under Regulation 10 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, but he is advised that it is not within the power of the justices under the Temporary Restriction Act to reinforce the military Order in the way suggested by General Mackinnon. As explained in the fourth and sixth paragraph of the Home Office Circular of the 6th November last, an Order under the Temporary Restriction Act cannot, he is advised, properly discriminate between soldiers and civilians, and should apply both to licensed premises and to clubs."
If I rightly understand, my right hon. Friend now says that we may do what he himself has refused to do.
The hon. Baronet has read a letter which relates to a different subject. It has reference to an Order made by the Court prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors on club premises, during certain hours to soldiers who are residents in convalescent homes.
Is there not already power existing under the Defence of the Realm Act to do this?
Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and negatived.
Bill reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
Ulster Canal Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
:I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
5.0 P.M.
I regret the absence of my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland, who has taken a great interest in this Bill, being an Ulster Member. He is unfortunately detained in Dublin to-day by business connected with his office, and therefore I have been asked to move the Second Reading. To some extent this Bill has already been misrepresented, for I have heard it described compendiously as a Bill to close what is called the Ulster Canal. Anybody who casts the most cursory glance at Clause 1 of this Bill, which follows an unusually long Preamble, will see that the only power that this Bill confers is as follows:—"The Commissioners may by order made with the consent of the Treasury authorise the company (in whom this Ulster Canal and other undertakings are at the present moment vested) to close the Ulster Canal in whole or in part during such period, and upon such conditions, including conditions as to maintenance during the closing period, as to re-opening and as to the application of the income of the company as may be prescribed by the order notwithstanding anything in certain Acts." Therefore the Bill is a Bill to enable the Commissioners of Public Works, with the consent of the Treasury, to authorise the company to close in part, or the whole if it is so authorised, the Ulster Canal upon particular terms. It is necessary to explain particularly what the Ulster Canal is. There are three water-ways at the present moment in that part of the world which are vested in the company to which I will subsequently refer.
Those three distinct water-ways have very different histories and date from different periods, but they have not had any one of them very brilliant careers. There is, first of all, the Lagan Canal which starts at Belfast and conveys boats with freights to Lough Neagh. That is an undertaking some 25 miles long, I believe, and it is still a profitable, though not a very profitable, undertaking, which was constructed in the middle of the eighteenth century under the authority of the Irish Parliament, which, I notice, raised some portion of the money necessary for its construction by imposing an Excise Duty upon beer and spirits consumed in the particular district it was proposed to serve. After a very considerable time, and after passing into different hands—first the Commissioners of Inland Navigation, then the Public Works Commissioners, and finally to private companies—it at one time became derelict. It was afterwards, under an Act of 1843, along with the Ulster Canal and what is called the Coalisland Canal, placed in one concern, and it is still a prosperous undertaking. The Ulster Canal was begun in 1826, and that is an undertaking which is, I believe, 45 miles long. It goes from the Blackwater River in Armagh, and is connected with Lough Erne. Thus you get an open way from Belfast to Lough Neagh, and then from the Blackwater River in Armagh down by various important towns, including Monaghan and others, into Lough Erne. That is the second undertaking vested in this company. There is then the Coalisland Canal, and the three of them are now vested in this particular company, namely, the Lagan Canal, the Ulster Canal, and the Coalisland or Tyrone Navigation Canal.
The question now practically comes to this: The Lagan Canal pays its way fairly well. The Coalisland Canal also pays a very small margin of profit over expenditure. The Ulster Canal is said by some people to have ceased, and to have become dry, and to be no longer of any use. That is not by any means the case. It is, I believe, true that the last 10 miles toward Lough Erne stand practically derelict. From the other end, down beyond Monaghan, it is still open, I am told. I may point out, though I have travelled several times in that district, I cannot say I have ever noticed the traffic to be conspicuously large. Still it is undoubtedly the fact that it is open in these parts, and does convey flour, and Indian meal, and other things useful to the traders and to the community, at all events to some extent. For a considerable part it is derelict, and the company having those three undertakings in their hands are anxious to have powers conferred upon the Commissioners of Public Works, with the consent of the Treasury, to close some parts of this canal and to relieve themselves of the obligation of maintaining and keeping it open, even to the extent it is kept open without any profits there from. There is no intention whatsoever that the canal where it is a working and going concern should be closed, and if any part is closed it is only asked that it should be done temporarily, owing to the fact that, at this moment especially, the burden upon this company is rather bigger than it was before owing to the falling off in its revenue. The legal position is this, that unless the Ulster Canal is kept open all three undertakings become forfeitable to the Crown under various Acts, and that, I think everybody will agree, would be disastrous and undesirable.
It would be a very good job.
I do not think it is desirable that the Lagan Canal should be closed or that the Tyrone Navigation should be closed or that the Ulster Canal in any considerable part which is at the present moment serving a useful purpose to the people living along its banks should be closed. I think it would be a most undesirable thing. It is in some way a competition to the railways, and it has, I dare say, though to what extent I do not know, some effect in keeping down rates on goods. I also think it would be a most undesirable thing that it should be forfeited to the Crown. I have got here the figures of these undertakings, and as the House likes figures sometimes I will proceed to give them. The Lagan Canal has shown for the last ten years ending 1914–15 a surplus of £2,078, or in round figures £2,000. The Coalisland Canal shows a surplus of £133, making a total surplus of £2,200. The Ulster Canal during the last ten years shows a deficit of £916 17s. There are certain deductions to be made. There is a ground rent of £300 payable to the Treasury which was the rent imposed, I think in 1843, when the undertaking was forfeited to the Crown, and when a new lease was granted, which has since expired. The undertaking is now held under a lease which is practically in perpetuity on the condition of keeping the canals open. There is still the ground rent payable to the Crown of £300. Allowing for charges on debentures of £633—
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the date when the debenture was incurred.
I cannot. I have not got it before me at present.
It is a vital figure
The total deductions amount to £933 8s. 7d., and that shows an average net surplus on the whole undertakings when you have made these deductions, and allowed for the Ulster Canal deficit of £916, of £362 8s. 3d.
For the ten years?
Yes. That is a miserably small profit to carry on an undertaking of this kind. As represented to me, although there is this very small surplus, it is really realised on the Lagan Canal and the Tyrone Navigation, as the working of the Ulster Canal results in a considerable deficit. Though normally the surpluses of the Lagan Canal and Tyrone Navigation cover the losses of the Ulster Canal, and leave this small net profit of £362 for distribution, the dislocation of business owing to the War has reduced those surpluses to such an extent that they will not be adequate to meet the deficit on the Ulster Canal Company. They have no reserve assets and no borrowing powers to make good the deficiency, and I understand that the bank account is already somewhat overdrawn. If they are put in a position, through the Commissioners of Public Works and the consent of the Treasury, to reduce the deficit on this Ulster Canal from £900 to, let us say, three or four hundred pounds, then their position would be, for the time being at all events, tolerable. If, on the other hand, this Bill does not pass, the estimated deficiency on the 31st March on the whole undertaking of the three canals amounts to something like £224. These are very small figures when we are dealing with canals and undertakings of that sort, but they are sufficient to show that it is desirable, unless we want this whole canal system to cease, that they should be allowed in this perfectly discretionary manner, through the Commissioners of Public Works, with the consent of the Treasury, to lop off unnecessary expenditure on the part of the canal where there are no incomings or revenue at all and to effect economies in the management in that part of their concern which is not paying, and thus to keep themselves going, at all events till after the War is over, and then other considerations and other possibilities may become more obvious to the Government of Ireland than they are at the present moment.
This is a measure of a businesslike character, because it enables the company to cut the loss in a direction which will not interfere with the utility of the canal where it is a going concern, and will just enable the company to go along. Since the Attorney-General introduced the Bill objections have been made by people in Monaghan, and other towns, and by the county councils of the counties interested. They are afraid that the canal is going to be closed at once in those parts where it is at present open, and they are apprehensive that the railway companies will increase their rates, and thereby inflict injury upon them in these very hard and bad times. I find it very difficult to believe that when a Bill of this character is understood by the railway companies, when they see that it is not a Bill for the permanent closing of the canal, but only a permissive measure, enabling that part of the canal which has not been used for a considerable period to be closed, and that it by no means destroys the utility of the canal in those parts where it is at present open, the railway companies will be able to raise their rates. The rates may in some cases be less than the scheduled rates, and it may not be necessary for them to go to the Commission, but it seems to me that it would be very improbable that the railway companies would do anything of the sort. I am quite prepared to admit that it ought to be part of this temporary arrangement, for it is only a temporary arrangement, that the railway companies should not raise their rates.
I put it to hon. Members that by reading the Bill a second time, and sending it to a Hybrid Committee, the House will not lose its control of the measure. It will have to come back to the House. It would be a great pity to lose time, now that the Session is rapidly disappearing, by postponing the Bill for a longer period than is necessary. I have not the intention of proceeding with a Bill of this sort in the face of the determined opposition of a considerable number of Members. But I have no doubt we can come to an arrangement which will remove from the minds of the traders in these not inconsiderable towns the apprehension which presses upon them. Some people have said that the Treasury ought to forego its rent.
Oh, no!
I am glad to hear that, because I have to say they will not.
Of course not!
If that be so, it is really a businesslike proposal which I put before the House. I ask Members to have regard to the fact that the. Session is fleeting. I do not know how long the Session will last, but we are nearly at the end of October. I am satisfied that hon. Members who are anxious to represent the wishes of their constituents need be under no apprehension that if the Second Reading is given, and the Hybrid Committee set up, they will not have an ample opportunity of making and repeating their objections on the ground of this railway question. I agree that that question should be got out of the way before the Bill becomes law. I do not wish to go into the history of these three undertakings. I should be willing to do so, but I doubt whether it would be in order. It would be to tell a venerable story of the failure in times past of these particular waterways, which cost a great deal of money lent by public bodies, the recovery of which money public bodies have foregone, so that a large amount of public money has been sunk in these undertakings. The Bill also says that if the Commissioners do the things to which I have referred and authorise the company to close up any part of this canal, the Act of 1888 or any part of it is not to take effect. Therefore, speaking as a business man to business men, I think the Bill is a good proposal, and I beg to move the Second Reading.
I have heard with amazement the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. This Bill, instead of being called the Ulster Canal Bill, ought to be called the History of Ireland. I never knew a measure which in a more compendious manner set out the history of Ireland, and especially the history of Ireland since the Act of Union. In the year 1800 you took over our country with its obligations; you took over the canals that were made by the Irish Parliament, and you vested them in your Boards. Bit by bit, year by year, decade by decade, you bribed some little interested gang to take over your liabilities, and then when they have taken them over owing to the bribery of the Treasury, the Government bring in a Bill to drop the canals altogether and shut them up. I call that a history of Ireland, and it is the history of this Bill. At a time when our taxation has been enormously increased, without the advantages which England gets from war expenditure, the Chief secretary says that he is unable to get from the Treasury even the remission of the £300 a year which they exact from the Lagan Canal. Every word which the right hon. Gentleman has said—I wilt not say every word, but in substance—is contradicted by the records. The right hon. Gentleman says that he will not go into the history of this canal. No, for the same reason that Irish history is not allowed to be taught in the school-books of the national schools: it is not desirable that it should be known. It is not desirable that the history of the Lagan Canal, the Ulster Canal, and the other canals in Ireland should be known.
But I think I am entitled to ask three or four questions. This is a private bill. Who knocked at the door of Dublin Castle and said, "Relieve me of my obligations to keep open a canal forty-four miles long, which I have bound myself by solemn statute to keep open"? If I owed rent, would anybody come with a Public Act of Parliament to relieve me of that obligation? If I, as a farmer, undertake to pay the Government for my land and for the money I have borrowed from the Government, will any man bring in a public Bill and say, "I will relieve you of your public obligation"? But when gentlemen connected with Belfast—the only name given in Thorn's Directory as the proprietor of the Lagan Canal is that eminent covenanter and Privy Councillor, Mr. Young. I suppose he is going to keep the Covenant against Home Rule, but he will not keep the covenant in the Act of 1888, nor will he keep the covenant which he is bound by Statute to keep. I am entitled to know from the Government who knocked at the door and said, "Relieve me of my obligations." Give us the name of the gentleman; then we will know where we are. Even supposing the proposal was a fair one, upon what grounds did the Irish office use the public forms in the month of October to relieve any company from the expenses of private Bill legislation? When people promote Lighting Acts, Tramway Acts, Railway Acts, they have to come here—engage counsel, and go to all the expense—to do public good. It is only when you want to do public mischief you are to be relieved of the expense of private Bill legislation. As long as you are trying to do good and to develop the country by railways, lighting, and so on, you must come as a suitor to this House. But when you want to shut up a canal an obliging Government relieves you of your obligation and of all expense. Who decided that? Was it the Attorney-General? We have a Coalition Government or a hybrid Government; I do not know exactly what the phrase is, but we are entitled to know what mind brought itself to bear upon this question. We have not been told, and we do not know.
When the Bill was brought in I consulted you, Sir, as to whether it was a proper Bill to be brought in as a public Statute, and you referred the matter to the Examiners. I cannot get the report of the Examiners in the Public Bill Office. Our country and its affairs are very small, but this Parliament is good enough to conduct them for us. If this was a canal in England, if you were proposing to close up forty-four miles of a canal in Lancashire or Yorkshire, do you think you would not have the Lancashire or Yorkshire Members up in arms about it? At all events, if the Examiners of Private Bills had the matter referred to them, would you not go to the expense of a couple of sovereigns in printing their report? I have tried but I cannot get the report. It is an extraordinary thing when you, Sir, as the Speaker of this House refer a question to the Examiners for report, Members of the House are left in the dark. I am told that I cannot get the report. Others may have it; I have not got it. On making inquiries I learned, in a kind of indirect way, that the examiners had said there were no Standing Orders violated by the Government of the day using their powers to bring in a public Bill to deal with a private matter. No Standing Orders! There is no Statute against murder. You cannot find any law saying that a man shall be hanged for murder, yet men are hanged every day. You could not find this, and the examiners could not find this; just as long ago in Rome there was no law against parricide, because Rome did not contemplate that any Roman would commit the crime. Consequently this House has never made a Standing Order prohibiting the Government of the day bringing in as a public Bill what is in reality a private Bill. You cannot find such a provision. Such an abhorrent idea never occurred to any constitutional statesman. But there is always something new out of Ireland! We there are always being favoured with new precedents. But for the first time what ought to be the duty of the individuals connected with this canal, seeing they want to rid themselves of their liabilities, has been kindly taken over at the public expense by the right hon. Gentleman, without the House getting one word of explanation as to why he has done it.
So much for the Parliamentary position. The Parliamentary position is as irregular and as unconstitutional as the legal position. What is the legal position? In 1888 the gentlemen connected with the Lagan Canal got as a present from the Government a bribe of £3,500, a canal 44 miles long, rents from tenants to the extent of £131 yearly, and grazing slopes along the canal. They got this as a free gift. Why did they get it? Because they promised the British Government, never intending to perform it, that if they got this canal they would work it. The British Government gave them the £3,500 and said, "What splendid fellows they are!" By so doing they relieved the Government of an annual charge of £1,600—that is to say, in the twenty-eight years that have elapsed the British Government have pocketed £50,000 by this bargain. That is the Government and the Treasury which the right hon. Gentleman says will mot now advance £200 or £300 to keep open 44 miles of canal! The right hon. Gentleman says that that is a splendid business transaction, and that any business man ought to accept it. You pocket £50,000 of liability imposed upon you by, I do not say the terms of the Act of Union, but by what was in effect part of the international bargain between the two countries, and then, Sir, to please Mr. Covenanter Young, Privy Councillor, you bring in your Bill to close up the thing! What else did the Lagan Canal get? In addition to this 44 miles of canal, with its rental of £131—which taken at twenty years' purchase was worth over £2,000—what else did they get, and this was the real object which these gentlemen had? There was that profitable undertaking, namely, the canal which runs from Lough Neagh to Belfast, and the lease of which would expire in a few years, with perhaps few officials to pension off—perhaps a superintendent with a salary of 200 guineas a year. The Government agreed to give £3,500 and give them their lease for 999 years.
A small band of us twenty-seven years ago, amongst whom was myself, said this is a public scandal. Those were the words I have on record as using in connection with the Bill. The outcry was so great that the then Leader of the House, the late Mr. W. H. Smith, got a Liberal, the late Mr. Stansfeld, a well-known Radical, to sit as Chairman of the Committee. Whenever a Tory Government wants a job done it always gets a Liberal in the chair as a figurehead. Poor Mr. Stansfeld knew much more about Mazzini and Italy than he did about Ulster or Mr. Privy Councillor Young. Poor Mr. Stansfeld entered into the thicket of this Irish question. This was a private Bill. It was not a public Bill, because the Conservative Government of that day had not the indecency to do what the Coalition Government has done to-day—bring in a public Bill under these circumstances. They got the Liberal, Mr. Stansfeld, to act as their bonnet in the matter. We have gone a long way since then, and we have reached the days of a Coalition Government. We had to deal with this matter. On the Committee sat the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Irish Board of Agriculture, myself, Mr. Arthur O'Connor, and, I think, the late Colonel Saunderson, and in addition the English Member. The Irish Members declared that the Preamble of the Bill was not proved. The English Member, Mr. Stansfeld, gave his casting vote the other way; so that the bonnet, Mr. Stansfeld, who probably had never been in Ireland in his life—the Appenines and the Alps were more in his way—forced the Bill down our throats in Committee.
At all events, Mr. Stansfeld had this honourable quality: he listened to our complaints, and he took steps to see that what we denounced as a swindle should not, if possible, be carried out. Much to the regret and reluctance of the gentlemen engaged in operating the swindle, he forced down their throats a series of protective Clauses—the Stansfeld Clauses— and it is these Clauses which the present Chief Secretary wants to abrogate. The present Lord Allerton, then Mr. Jackson, Secretary to the Treasury, a very competent and good man at making a bargain— as we have known on many occasions in connection with the Great Northern Railway—was examined before us. I put to him a series of questions showing that this was an attempt by others to get hold of this line: its £3,500, its rental of £131, its grazing slopes, etc., and that as soon as they got it into their power they would throw the whole scheme overboard, and say, "Oh, we are now bankrupt, and we are unable to do the work." It is that swindle the Chief Secretary for Ireland is abetting, and I tell him so! We said these things twenty-seven years ago, and I did not think twenty-seven years ago I would have been here to see my prophesies realised. The Chief Secretary will not go into history. He will not do so, because it is most unpleasant and unlike that history which Napoleon said was generally false, for this is history by Statute.
made a remark which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
They are your own Statutes, not mine! They are the output of this great Assembly which you admire so much. They are the orders of the British Government, which we know is the only Government fit to govern Ireland. Mr. Stansfeld insisted upon putting in one Clause which I shall read. We said to these men, "You are going to break your bargain." They said, "If we do, may Parliament do so-and-so," and as the Bible says, "add more also." We provided that
"The company 'shall.'"
In the original Statute it was "may," but Mr. Stansfeld put in the word "shall"—
"the company shall keep the said canal open for navigation, and in a fit state of repair, and provision shall be made for the forfeiture of such canal by the company, and the reversion thereof to the Commissioners, default being made by the company of such undertaking."
That solemn bargain, which we forced down their throats was—to the courage and honour of Mr. Stansfeld, be it said— insisted upon. What says the Chief Secretary to-day? "Oh, it does not make any matter; it is true they get £131 and £3,500, and 44 miles of canal, and all the rest of it, but what matter? We are in a state of war; and I will slip in a little public Bill, and I will do away with the whole thing. The Board of Works are such nice, kind people in Ireland, they will do no harm, and the Treasury are such that they cannot do anything, and the Irish are fools, that we have been in the habit of gulling with Bills all these years; and, of course, they swallow these things"; and the Bill went through the other night! There was not a single man to object. I insisted the matter should be discussed.
Let us see what is the terrible calamity that would happen if this Bill does not pass? In the first place, I would remind the House that the Liberal Government have now been ten years in office in Ireland, and with the exception of a Bill which the right hon. Gentleman passed, relating to education in Ireland—for which we are all grateful—and another Bill for killing land purchase—this Bill, dealing with 44 miles of canal, is the only product of ten years of "wait and see." I would ask this question: Why is this, in the month of October, a very unusual time for this House to be sitting? Why did we not hear of this in the King's Speech, or at the Easter Recess, or the Whitsuntide Recess, or at the July adjournment? What has made the condition of this Ulster Canal so extraordinary urgent in this present month of October? Nothing has made it urgent. The statement of the right hon. Gentleman, instead of proving urgency, proves the very reverse. What he has shown is this: I put it to English Members who are connected with private companies, whether they be statutory companies, railways, or canals, or private concerns, Do they ever hear of a private concern, which pays its way, apart from Statute altogether, and apart from promises, being allowed to come to Parliament and break its word to the country? Here are the figures of the right hon. Gentleman. Here is the Lagan Canal with a surplus of £2,078. I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that one of the grounds given by the chairman and secretary for the passing of this Bill in 1888 was that there might be an improved traffic on the Lagan section. He has attributed the whole of that £2,078 to the Lagan section, whilst it might be an improvement by way of Lake Erne or county Tyrone, or in other directions. In 1888 one of the chief objects of acquiring this 44 miles of canal was that it might benefit the Lagan section. Now the right hon. Gentleman—I will not say befooled by the actuarial figures presented to him, but I am quite certain without analysis of them—has given the figures showing that the Lagan Canal is a profit and the Ulster Canal is a loss. But that is not the way in which railway companies treat branch lines; that is not the way in which traffic is treated by traffic experts. When you have got 44 miles of canal joined up to 18 or 20 miles of canal, you are not allowed by any actuary to attribute the whole of the profits to the 18 miles, but must distribute your profit over the 44 miles. I should, therefore, have thought that the right hon. Gentleman before he gave his figures to the House would have told us who had prepared them for him or whether anyone had done so. I do not wish to go at length into the matter, but unfortunately these Irish stories are long ones. Let the right hon. Gentleman turn to Question 625. The Treasury was represented then by a gentleman named Sir Richard Wyatt. Taking out his card and showing it to me, he said, "If you don't pass this Bill, I am the chairman of the Working Crematorium Company," which I thought a nice combination of business and pleasure. Sir Richard Wyatt asked this question of the chairman of the company, page 36 of the minutes, question No. 605:— because there has happened in this Canal Bill what has never happened in Parliamentary history. Mr. Stansfeld, having done the best as he thought, did everything he possibly could to put difficulties in the way of that company from perpetrating a swindle which the Government are going to embody in the Bill. We put down a number of Amendments of a still more protective character, and he then did what has never been done before or since. He moved and carried this Resolution:—
The outstanding amount is £633.
It is more than that. There was the original mortgage.
I have not got that.
Some hon. Member said £20,000. I do not know. Perhaps in twenty years they may have paid it off. At all events, they got the power for the mortgage. I raised then, and I raise now, two questions. I pointed out to the Committee that this was not a limited company in any sense, and therefore if you put an obligation on a company every shareholder was liable to the last shilling in his pocket. That was the case with the Glasgow Bank, which was not a limited liability company, and accordingly every person in that bank had to make up the amount of deficit by whatever capital he possessed. Now comes this important matter for the public interest. The directors of this company are liable under this Act. They are liable to keep this canal open. They took the canal upon that bargain. They took all the advantages accompanying it, and why should they be relieved? Lord Allerton said, "We cannot get anybody to take it over." I said, "I will take it over as a present." He said, "You will not keep the canal open." I said, "Neither will you." And they have not. And now they come to the Government. They are now in the position practically of fraudulent trustees, and the Government are abetting them.
How can they make it pay?
Why did they take the liability? Why did they take the public money and the £131 rent which they are still taking? Do they propose to give that rent to the ratepayers or back to the Treasury? Nothing of the kind. I said to Mr. Jackson, "If these people want the waterway, let them have the waterway. Why give them £120 rent?" He said, "We won't take two bites at a cherry; we want to get rid of the whole undertaking." Sir Richard Wyatt had incurred the rebuke of Mr. Stansfield. He concealed from the Committee after it had been sitting for days that this Treasury bribe of £3,500 was being given. We sat, and sat, and sat, and it was not until we wormed it by force out of the secretary that the admission was given in a very partial and limited way, and it was not until the whole thing was over and the Committee had dispersed, and the Bill had been read a third time—I think it was, although I am not sure about that—at any rate, it was not until our powers had largely lapsed that we got an admission from the Government that this gift of £3,500 was being made. Is it fair or is it tolerable that when the Government themselves have made a present to this company of this amount of land with these rentals, when they themselves are drawing from the company a rent of £300 a year—is it fair to the Irish people at a time when their taxation is so enormously increased, that they should bring in a Bill to relieve these gentlemen, of their liabilities? Why am I not relieved of my liability to pay rent? Why should I not have a moratorium for my grocer's bill? Here are men who solemnly undertook to run a canal which was opened for them 44 miles in length, getting public money on the strength of it, who are still in the enjoyment of the £131 a year—
£131 a year will not make the Ulster Canal pay.
6.0 P.M.
No, it will not. They knew that at the time they took it. They came under these Clauses by which it was said that they would incur a forfeiture. What is to happen if there is a forfeiture? No harm to anybody. Bad as is the Irish Government—and I think it might well be compared with the Government of Turkey for absolute recklessness of the people concerned, with no heed or thought for them, no real consideration or care for them—yet I believe when this reverse had taken place the Treasury would still be obliged to keep the canal open. That is why you brought in your Bill. Before that occurs a great many things will happen. In the first place, they will not close the canal. I do not think outside Dublin Castle and some of the political colleagues of this eminent Covenanter that there is a single man in Ireland believes that they have any intention of closing it, because they can be compelled to keep it open. It is because the Government know that if they did attempt it, and if this calamity did occur, the result would be that we should remain just as we were before the Act of 1888. The Board of Works would still have this obligation upon them, and it would not be a pretty thing in Ireland for the Board of Works to close up a public canal, giving the benefit of the traffic to the railway company. This is an attempt by the Irish Office—I have seen it made not by one Chief Secretary, but by Chief Secretary after Chief Secretary, and I have seen twenty-seven—to make Ireland the dishclout of the Treasury. This Bill gives us an opportunity of reviewing your promises made twenty-seven years ago, and contrasting them with your performances to-day. It also gives us an opportunity of considering to some extent the proposal to cut Ulster out. It enables us to ask the Government what they have been doing. You have been doing in Ireland what you have been doing nowhere else. You have been cutting down salaries —at any rate, all but your own—salaries of sub-commissioners and land commissioners, and anybody who has been engaged in any of the departments which have benefited the country under Gladstonian or Wyndham legislation. All these people have been struck at, and you have made savings to the extent of about £10,000.
The Lagan Canal serves the country from Belfast to Lough Neagh, through Tyrone into Lough Erne. It affects every considerable town in Ulster. Ours is a country from which you are getting £2,000,000 a year extra taxation, and is there no means by which you can put some pressure upon the Treasury to ask that these miserable few hundred pounds which are necessary to keep this canal open as a competitive system against the Great Northern Railway should be supplied? I have spoken of the money; what about the men? The Ulster men boast that they have given 40,000 men for your regiments alone, and you will not part with £300 a year in order that a competitive system may exist against the Great Northern Railway. These kind of facts sink into the minds of the Irish people, and they do far more injury than Sein Fein publications, because it is the business people who feel the miserable way in which these matters are conducted. I would like to see any English Minister coming down here with a proposal to shut up 44 miles of a canal in Yorkshire. How long would he hold his office? This is only being done by the aiding and abetting of the Government. It is not the Great Northern or the Midland Railway, but the Government of the day that is closing this canal, and it is a breach of faith. I do not hesitate to say that this Bill is a compendium of the history of Ireland, of your broken faith with the country, and of your miserable neglect of the country, Bill is unprecedented. Having sent the Bill without notice to a Hybrid Committee, the Government are now compelled by the remonstrances that are made to give us an opportunity for discussion. Why should a public Bill go to a Hybrid Committee which is only constituted for private Bills? Why do you not refer English and Scottish Bills to a Hybrid Committee? It is only the Bills of Cinderella that are dealt with in this manner. A great and powerful country with a revenue of £1,000,000,000 a year is dealing with this poor wretched country in this way. This Bill is not given even the scant courtesy of Parliamentary forms, although you are forcing hon. Members to come here. This whole transaction is one of the meanest and most disgraceful that ever marked the history of the Act of Union.
My acquaintance with the county of Ulster does not date back as far as that of the hon. and learned Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy), but I will deal with the more recent facts as a reason why this Bill should not be read a second time. In the year 1886 the Lagan Navigation Company were entitled to a lease for thirty-one years of what was undoubtedly a paying concern. They then came to Parliament for a private Bill which was to give them an extension of the lease of this paying concern to 999 years, and naturally there had to be some consideration and the consideration they were prepared to pay and which Parliament was ready to agree to was that they should undertake the working of the Ulster Canal, which undoubtedly had failed in the hands of a private company. I have read the evidence given before the Committee, and time and again it is repeated on behalf of the promoters that they hoped to make it pay, and in fact would make it pay. One condition after another was inserted in the Bill, which put it upon them as a duty that they must work the entire canal, and they were bound not to show any preference to any person. That was a Parliamentary bargain, and if they did not carry it out the Board of Works could put their powers into operation and take the canal from them. Now they have come forward asking for a public Bill to relieve them of obligations under a 999 years' lease of a paying undertaking. They claimed these privileges by reason of the War, but it was only in the month of October, 1915, that they discovered that the War has affected these operations.
I was born near the banks of the Ulster Canal, and I know that the policy of the Navigation Company has been that they have starved it in every way they could. It was never kept in repair, and barges were very reluctantly sent, but nevertheless the few barges that were sent were sufficient to keep the railway rates of the Great Northern Railway Company at a reasonable figure. They have always served that particular portion of the canal, and we never heard until October that it was not paying. We never heard that they were going to come to Parliament. Now what do we find? When we look at the Act upon which the agreement was based we find in Section 7 that they were not to close, lease, sell, or otherwise dispose of the Ulster Canal or any portion of it without first giving notice to the Grand Juries of Armagh, Tyrone, Monaghan, and Fermanagh. I am speaking on behalf of every section of the community in the districts interested. I have telegrams from the county councils and telegrams from the county councils and Unionists, protesting against the action of the Government. Not a word of communication has been made to any member of any public body, no local interest has been consulted, and the first thing done is that a Bill is thrown on the Table of this House, without any consultation with anyone. The Board of Works took it absolutely for granted that this Bill would slip through. Before they had power from this House to put the Bill into operation, or relieve the canal companies from any liability in respect of the working of this particular portion of the Ulster Canal which does not pay, they had actually entered into commitments as to the portions they would close and the portions which they would not close. It was stated in a London letter, in one of the Belfast papers, that Mr. Lonsdale had obtained from the Attorney-General a promise in regard to the Ulster Canal Bill in regard to the closing of the canal. What authority had the Board of Works, or the Attorney-General, to enter into an arrangement of this kind before the Bill had received the sanction of this House? The part of the canal which they have starved and left in disrepair runs from Clones to Lough Erne, and with regard to the rest of it they say, "Very well, we are making a nice cool thousand a year, and we will go an doing it, and leave the counties of Monaghan and Fermanagh to the tender mercies of the Great Northern Railway Company." I should be very sorry to see any portion of the waterway closed, but at the same time I would prefer that the whole thing should be closed and that we should get an opportunity of dealing with the matter as best we can, rather than that these people who have entered into a solemn undertaking to pay for the privilege and monopoly which they got from Parliament should come to this House and in the form of a public Bill get relief from that bargain.
What have we been told by the Chief Secretary? He said that this matter would go to a Committee upstairs, and that everybody interested would have an opportunity of employing counsel and Parliamentary agents, bringing their witnesses and their deputations over, and putting their case before the Parliamentary Committee. Why was not the expense and the responsibility of promoting their own private Bill saddled on the company itself if they want relief? What would this House say if any public body who had obtained powers from this House were to come and say that part of their undertaking was paying and part was not paying, and that they had entered into an arrangement with a public Department that they would close that part which was not paying? Such a proposal would not be listened to for a moment. Yet so certain were these parties that the thing would go through that they entered into arrangements and marked on the map the portions of the canal which would be closed. So strongly do the people of the district feel about this matter that they say, "If the canal is to be closed, give us an opportunity of finding the funds locally." I speak on behalf of every section of the community, and I say that they are absolutely united in their determination not to allow the canal to be closed if they can prevent it. If it can be said that any of the public Departments have enormous sums of money lying derelict, then it is time that we had an opportunity of dealing with these things ourselves. This matter was twice considered by a Royal Commission, and the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture (Mr. T. W. Russell), who was a member of the Committee in 1888, was the very person who put this question to one of the witnesses: "What would happen if this canal were not put in operation?" The answer was, "I do not know," whereupon the right hon. Gentleman further asked: "Would not the effect of it be to leave the people at the mercy of the Great Northern Railway Company?" Now, without any consultation whatever, the people of these districts are to be left at the mercy of the Great Northern Railway Company. The proper course would be to withdraw the Bill, to consult the local interests, and if there is a real necessity for closing the canal by reason of the War to let it be done on terms equitable to the public as well as to the company. Unless some arrangement is made through the local authorities to give the people of the district an opportunity to work the canal, or unless some binding arrangement is entered into with the Great Northern Railway Company, I would rather see this Bill thrown out with the risk of the canal being closed throughout.
I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the question to add the words "upon this day three months."
I understand that this House is working under a very strict Motion, and that nobody can move anything except Government business. How does it come about that the Irish Department have brought in this Bill as a public Bill? If it had been brought in as a private Bill the company would have had to give notice all through the area where they run. They have given no notice. Why is it going to be sent to a Hybrid Committee? You are taking advantage of one set of rules by bringing it in as a public Bill, thereby saving the pockets of the promoters, and you are taking advantage of another set of rules by taking it upstairs as a private Bill for the purpose of helping the object of the promoters. Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us who introduced the Bill? Was it drafted in the Chief Secretary's office or in that of the Attorney-General? If he cannot tell us why the Bill is brought in as a public Bill, will he adjourn the Debate so that the Attorney-General may have an opportunity of telling us? The right hon. Gentleman takes up this position: A statutory company comes to him and says, "We have entered into a statutory obligation with the House of Commons. The undertaking is not now paying, and we want to get out of it." He thereupon introduces a public Bill to relieve them of the responsibility of the undertaking. Take the case of the Great Northern Railway Company of England. It is at the present time working an extension line which it has taken over under an Act of Parliament, and it is working it at a loss. What would be said if the President of the Board of Trade, on behalf of the Great Northern Railway Company of England, introduced a Bill to relieve the company of their statutory obligations? That is what the right hon. Gentleman is asking this House to do. Will he tell me on whose suggestion this Bill is promoted as a public Bill? Does he think it fair that the House of Commons should treat it as a public Bill for one purpose to save the pockets of the promoters, and treat it as a private Bill for another purpose to help the object of the promoters?
I beg to second the Amendment.
I have listened to the speeches that have been made upon my Motion that this Bill should be read a second time with some little surprise at the tone which they have assumed. I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. T. M. Healy) that so far as the Irish Office, or the Irish Government, is concerned we have entered into none of these mysterious underhand arrangements with the Lagan Canal Company, of whose constitution I am wholly unaware.
You ought to be aware.
The hon. and learned Gentleman no doubt thinks that I should know the composition of the Lagan Company, but I really see no obligation why I should know anything of the company. He assumes that the Irish Government have entered into an undertaking—he calls it a "corrupt undertaking"—to get them off a pecuniary obligation. He almost suggested that their whole fortune was at stake, as though if this canal were not kept working every one of them would be sold up. It is nothing of the kind. We were assured that it would be a good arrangement if you could keep this canal as a whole thing—the Lagan Canal, the Ulster Canal, and the Coalisland Canal—open as a going concern rather than that the Ulster Canal should be closed, and that there should be a forfeiture. The hon. and learned Gentleman asks what would happen if they did not perform their statutory obligations. The thing would fall into the hands of the Commissioners or the Board of Works, which, as he very well knows, is not an Irish office, but an Imperial office in Ireland, and upon them would devolve the obligation of keeping open the canal. I do not say for a single moment that is not a thing which some day may happen, and which some day possibly may even beneficially happen, but it would not be a desirable thing to happen at the present time. That was the view which the Irish Government, and also the Board of Works, took. It was thought an undesirable thing, at the present time, while there was still a possibility, if only the accounts were adjusted and the company were relieved from certain obligations with regard to keeping up that portion of the canal which is not-available for any useful purpose, but which still costs something, that they might keep the thing going for another year or two. That was the sole object. I am free to admit that it is not a subject with which I am very closely acquainted. It was the Attorney-General who introduced the Bill to the House. I am not saying, in any way, that I do not myself think it is a very good, sound businesslike proposal. It is said that this is a Bill to close the canal. That is the very thing I wish to prevent the House getting into its head. We do not propose to close any portion. We propose to keep it open, but we propose that the company should be permitted by the Commissioners, with the consent of the Treasury, to forgo certain expenses which at present embarrass them. I am not going into the whole history of the Ulster Canal. The hon. and learned Gentleman seems to think I am very remiss in not doing so. If I did do so, I should be able to show that hundreds of thousands of public money have been swallowed up in this undertaking.
Irish money.
Irish money no doubt is included in public loans. I do not wish, however, to go into that matter. My only object is to keep the thing open as a going concern at the present time, and that is my justification for assenting to this Bill being introduced. It did seem to me a sound and reasonable thing to keep these three canals going as far as they could be kept going at the present time, and that the best way was to relieve the company of certain expenses, which at present they have to incur, which are increasing, and which reduce them to a very low state. If they are a set of rogues and ruffians cheating Ireland, then they ought not to have been allowed to remain where they are for so long a time; but they are under certain statutory obligations which unless they fulfil there would be a forfeiture. The hon. and learned Gentleman says, "Let there be a forfeiture, and let the Commissioners of Works undertake the whole of this concern." I do not think that would be a desirable thing. I have no feeling about pressing upon hon. Members a Bill of this kind if they do not want it, and if they feel honestly as business men, not animated by party feelings or company matters, that there should at all events be an opportunity for further consideration, I am perfectly willing to move that this Debate should be adjourned. The only thing with which the Irish Government is concerned is that these undertakings should not at this period be forfeited to the Crown and worked, as they could only be worked, by the Board of Works. But I can assure the hon. Members who have spoken that I am prepared in this matter to act in co-operation with them and to listen to their views. I hope, however, it will not be taken that this Bill is dead.
If I can kill it, I will.
I am quite sure the hon. Gentleman will, but I am advised that this Bill might possibly be worth retaining at the present time, if proper arrangements can be made with the railway company. To talk about the county council being able to take over this concern—
[ROYAL ASSENT.—Message to attend the Lords Commissioners. The House went, and, having returned,
Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to—
1. Post Office and Telegraph Act, 1915.
2. Glasgow Water Order Confirmation Act, 1915.
3. London County Council (General Powers) Act, 1915.
4. London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Act, 1915.]
Ulster Canal Bill
( resuming ): If the hon. Member for Newry will withdraw his Motion. I will move. "That the Debate be now adjourned."
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the very pertinent question of the hon. Member for Newry, namely, why it is proposed to relieve these people of the expense of introducing this Bill, and to put it on the public?
The Bill is being dealt with in a proper, and I think the most convenient way, and I cannot see why the hon. Gentleman should be offended if the Lagan Canal people are relieved of expense. I hope we shall be able to come to an arrangement about that.
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give at least a week's notice of his intention to bring up the Bill again.
Certainly.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any further information why, for the first time, it is proposed to relieve a company of the payment of statutory fees for introducing a private Bill in this House, and to place the charge on public funds? Will he withdraw the Bill and reintroduce it as a private Bill at the expense of the promoters, and not of the State?
I am told that this procedure is by no means unusual. It is not uncommon for the Government to introduce Bills which are really private Bills in this particular way. It was done in the case of the Mall Approach Bill and other Bills.
In those cases companies were not relieved of their statutory obligation.
I will look into the matter, but I believe there are many instances where this has been done, and where a Bill which involves private obligations has been referred to a Hybrid Committee.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw the Bill and let the matter be introduced in the proper form? Let the arrangements come to be embodied in the new Bill. This Bill was rushed on us.
I think the hon. Member should realise that I have met him as fairly as I can. I hope he will not press for the withdrawal of the Bill.
I beg to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
Question put, and agreed to.
Debate to be resumed upon Tuesday next.
The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Quarter before Seven of the clock till Tuesday next (2nd November), pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.