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Commons Chamber

Volume 75: debated on Thursday 11 November 1915

House of Commons

Thursday, November 11, 1915

Clerical and Commercial Employments (Departmental Committee)

Copy presented of Report of the Committee appointed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to consider the conditions of Clerical and Commercial Employment with a view to advising what steps should be taken, by the employment of women or otherwise, to replace men withdrawn for service in the military forces [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Penal Servitude Acts (Conditional Licence)

Copy presented of Licence granted to Joshua Waldron, a Convict, to which is annexed a condition other than those contained in Schedule A of the Penal Servitude Act, 1864 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

National Insurance Act

Copy presented of Order, dated 5th November, 1915, made by the National Health Insurance Commissioners, entitled the County Borough of East Ham (Insurance Committee) Amendment Order, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Board of Agriculture and Fisheries

Copy presented of Agricultural Statistics, 1914. Vol. XLIX., Part III. Prices and Supplies of Corn, Live Stock, and other Agricultural Produce in England and Wales [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Rental of Small Dwelling-Houses in Industrial Districts in Scotland

Copy presented of Report of the Committee appointed by the Secretary for Scotland to inquire into the circumstances connected with the alleged recent increases in the rental of Small Dwelling-houses in Industrial Districts in Scotland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Netherlands Navy (Submarines)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government has information to the effect that several submarines are being constructed for Germany at the Royal Schelde Fabrik voor Scheehsbonn and Fezemoord yards?

No information on the subject has reached His Majesty's Government from official sources, but it has been reported in the Press that three submarines, intended for the Netherlands Navy, are to be constructed at the last-named yard. Inquiries will be made through His Majesty's Minister at The Hague.

Central and East Africa Military Operations

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if there is any information which he can without objection communicate to the House regarding military operations in Central and East Africa?

This is a purely military question, to which I am not competent to give an answer.

Persia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether the British Minister at Teheran is a party to the warning given by the Russian Minister to the Persian Government that if it concludes any special agreement with Germany and Turkey the Anglo-Russian undertaking to maintain the integrity and independence of Persia will lapse?

The warning was given by the Russian Minister alone, but the British and Russian Governments are acting in complete unity in Persia, and it must be obvious that the Persian Government cannot make agreements with our enemies, who have instigated murderous attacks on our Consuls and their staffs in Persia, without risking the position of Persia.

Egypt (Legislative Assembly)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on what grounds the Legislative Assembly of Egypt is prevented from sitting at a time when leading members desire that it should sit; who are the responsible advisers preventing the Sultan from convening the Assembly; and whether the Assembly will be convened and consulted before the offer of the Sultan to raise half a million of men to fight Turkey has been accepted?

I am not aware that responsible opinion in Egypt desires that the Legislative Assembly should be convened at the present moment, and I understand that the Sultan of Egypt has been advised by his Ministers that the convention of the Assembly would not in present circumstances be necessary. I have no information as to the offer referred to in the last part of the question.

Australian Forces in Egypt

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the number of outrages and offences committed by Australian Forces upon Egyptians in Egypt since the outbreak of War; whether instructions have been given not to record or report them; and, if reported, will he say by whom and when the report will be available?

On a point of Order. Before this question is answered, may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether there is any possibility of the hon. Member being compelled to produce some evidence to prove these mischievous and unfounded allegations contained in the question?

I am afraid I have no authority to call upon hon. Members to produce evidence of the matters which they include in their questions. The hon. Member must be responsible for them.

On a point of Order. Does not an hon. Member make himself personally responsible for any statements he puts into a question?

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman desires the evidence upon which this question is based? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] The question has not been answered.

I have received no official information of any such outrages having been committed in Egypt.

Does the right hon. Gentleman desire to see the evidence upon, which it is based?

Sir Edward Grey and Lord Haldane

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if Lord Haldane has been assisting in the administration of the Foreign Office; and, if so, in what capacity and since what date?

I much regret that there has been no opportunity recently of making use of the services of Lord Haldane in connection with the Foreign! Office. I should like to take this opportunity of saying that at no time has he-taken any part in work connected with the Foreign Office, either before or during the War, except with the full knowledge and consent of myself, and in important matters with the consent and authority of the Prime Minister and of those who were at the time his colleagues. I think it due to say this in view of attacks made upon him that have been based upon a contrary Assumption.

Personally, I regarded his withdrawal from the Government as a very great loss to the public service. I expressed to the Prime Minister my desire to resign also at that time, and, but for the crisis in public affairs, should have done so. If Lord Haldane's services were available for any work for which I was responsible, I should consider it in the public interest that they should be used.

Am I correct in understanding from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that in some form Lord Haldane is assisting in the administration of the Foreign Office?

asked the Prime Minister if Lord Haldane has been assisting in the administration of the War Office; if so, in what capacity and since what date?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, when Lord Haldane was at the War Office, he did not render great service?

That does not arise out of the question; but I may say that he rendered inestimable service.

Recruiting

Farmers' Sons (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, having regard to the policy of extermination by which the most fertile parts of Ireland have been stripped of inhabitants and to the present necessity for increased tillage, if he will say by what statutory or other authority the Lord Lieutenant tells farmers' sons that they must enlist for the War?

No statutory or other authority is necessary to enable the Lord Lieutenant to tell young Irishmen that they should do their duty in the present crisis.

Is there no authority required for the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to tell young men that they must enlist?

Voluntary Service

asked the Prime Minister (1) if any scheme of enlistment for the Army and Navy upon a basis of legal obligation is in preparation, so that, in the event of the present voluntary effort being insufficiently successful, the alternative method may be applied without delay; and (2) if it has been ascertained what number of men of military age are absolutely required to carry on the necessary national services, other than military, during the War; if the number of men left in the reservoir of those available for enlistment is known to the recruiting authorities; and if the margin is sufficient to supply the number of men for military service demanded by the Government?

I am not at present in a position to add to the statement which I made in the House last week.

Electric Power Employes

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has power to prevent men engaged on electric power stations which supply munition works with current from being recruited; and, if not, will he take immediate steps to obtain wider powers for this and other undertakings essential to munition work being carried on?

The PARLIAMENTARY
(MILITARY) SECRETARY to the MUNITIONS DEPARTMENT (Colonel Arthur Lee)

My right hon. Friend has power to issue badges to indispensable men engaged in electrical power stations supplying current for war purposes. Badges have been issued in such cases wherever application has been made.

Married Men

asked if the Government will give a guarantee, or make it clear, that all single men of military age and fitness shall be enlisted either by voluntary or compulsory means before married men who express their willingness to enter for service in their proper classes are called to the Colours?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can definitely state that before any married man who has volunteered is called up means will be taken to ensure that all eligible unmarried men shall have accepted their share of the duty of military service?

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister answered yesterday a written question on this subject, put by the hon. Member for North Islington, and referred him to his statement last week, to which he was not able to add anything. I am unable to add anything to this answer.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the lack of a plain answer to this question is impairing recruiting very much? We meet it everywhere. It is a question that is continually being put.

I will see if I can make my answer plainer than that which I have already given. I quite realise the force of what the hon. Gentleman says.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are great difficulties owing to the Tact that people outside do not know the real position, and that while married men are anxious to enlist many single men are shirking, and that the married man wants to know if he is going to be "collared, while the other chap is let off"?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of any form of conscription which secures that unmarried men shall be enlisted before married men?

Pharmacists

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether Lord Lansdowne's Committee has reported on the question of the desirability or otherwise of depleting by enlistment the number of pharmacists available for dispensing for the civilian population; and whether he can now announce the decision of the Government on the subject?

The list of occupations prepared by Lord Lansdowne's Committee does not include pharmacists. Pharmacists who are indispensable in their civil employment should enlist under the Royal Warrant of the 20th October, 1915, of which I will send my hon. Friend a copy. They will be placed in the group appropriate to their age and martial condition, and can return at once to their civil occupation until their group is called up. If a pharmacist or his employer claims that more time is still necessary the matter would be one for the local tribunal, who could still further postpone the date of calling up for actual military service.

Will the Government be prepared to announce to what other specialised callings this particular arrangement would apply?

Archbishop of Canterbury's Letter to Clergy

asked the Undersecretary for War whether his attention has been called to a letter sent by Lord Derby to the Archbishop of Canterbury, in which he states that he considers that his clergy should not be called upon to enlist, but should obey those set in authority over them; and will he say whether similar deference will be shown to all members of the community who entertain objections to participation in military operations?

The correspondence in question made it clear, I think, that those actually in orders and those not in orders could not be regarded as on the same footing. The answer to the last part of the question is consequently in the negative.

Exempted Trades

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade a question, of which I have given him private notice, namely: What steps have been taken to protect industry, and especially the export trade, from indiscriminate recruiting?

An Advisory Committee has been at work at the Board of Trade for some time past in preparing lists of occupations from which enlistments should be restricted, in view of the vital necessity of maintaining the trade of the country as far as possible in the present circumstances. Already a large number of trades have been examined and the lists of the occupations which should be protected in these trades have been communicated to and accepted by the War Office. These lists are being sent out to-day to representatives of the trades concerned.

Any man of military age following one of these occupations who desires to enlist will not be attested by the recruiting officer except under the condition that he continues in civil employment until he is called up for service. This arrangement has been made on the ground that the man can do better service for the nation in civil than in military employ.

Questions

Foilmore School, Cahirciveen

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland at whose instance the Irish Commissioners of National Education dismissed from service and deprived of his livelihood Mr. Jeremiah O'Connell, principal teacher of Foilmore school, near Cahirciveen, for his connection with the Irish Volunteers; what Commissioners were present when that action was agreed upon; and, the Commissioners being aware of teachers belonging to two other volunteer forces in Ireland, will he account for the difference of treatment?

The Commissioners of National Education in Ireland in dealing with Mr. Jeremiah O'Connell's connection with the Irish Volunteers' acted in accordance with their settled practice on the facts of the case being brought before them. As regards the second part of the question it is, in the opinion of the Commissioners, not desirable that the names of those present when any particular decision is arrived at should be made public. The difference in treatment referred to in the third part does not exist.

Will the hon. Gentleman say upon whose instructions the Commissioners took this action? The question is on the Paper.

I am afraid I do not know. I understand that Mr. O'Connell is reinstated, and I hope that will satisfy my hon. Friend.

Hay Purchases

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, what Irish authorities have been consulted and have con- curred in the system of commandeering hay for the Army in Westmeath, whereby some are deprived of their entire stock and forced to sell the cows and horses and dismiss the workers with which they supplied the community with the necessaries of life; and what action is to be taken to counteract orders producing these results?

The Irish authorities have not been consulted with regard to, nor have they concurred in any such system of commandeering hay for the Army as is referred to in the hon. Member's question, nor, as far as those authorities are aware, has any such system been in operation.

Will the hon. Gentleman say how it is that all the hay belonging to one particular man has been taken, and he is thus prevented from supplying the community with the necessaries of life?

asked by whose direction Charles R. Wilson is now commandeering hay in Westmeath, taking all from some, and thereby forcing them to sell their cows and horses and dismiss workers wherewith they supplied the community with the necessaries of life; whether this is the method of commandeering hay in England; what Irish authorities have been consulted and have concurred in its practice in Ireland; and, if irregular, whether the orders in the form stated will be cancelled?

The hon. Member is misinformed. The purchasing officer referred to is not commandeering hay in Westmeath, and has no instructions to do so. No hay has been requisitioned in that county.

Can the hon. Gentleman explain who, on behalf of the War Office, is commandeering hay on behalf of the War Office—for it is being commandeered?

Increased Rents

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, seeing that two-Bills are to be introduced, one for Scotland and one for England, to prohibit the raising of rents, the case of Ireland will be also considered?

If legislation is found practicable for dealing with the question of rent-raising in Great Britain, the case of Ireland will also be considered.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the owner of some small cottage property in Ranelagh Road, West Ham, has given notice to tenants that their rents will be raised from 7s. to 8s. per week; if he is aware that many other cottage property owners in all parts of the country are increasing the rents in a similar manner; if it is the intention of the Government to set up fair rent courts in accordance with the advice of the National Workmen's Housing Council; and if he can state when the Government intend dealing with the increased rent evil?

The Member has been good enough to give me further particulars of the cases referred to in the earlier part of this question, and I will communicate with him later concerning them. On the latter part of the question I can only refer to the reply I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Poplar.

Irish Volunteers

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, whether, as a number of young men, members of the Irish Volunteers, are being prosecuted and sent to gaol for making speeches which are endorsed by a number of Irish Nationalists, he will take steps to see that all persons arrested in Ireland under the Defence of the Realm Act will in future receive a fair trial by a jury of their own countrymen?

By the Defence of the Realm Act the determination as to whether offences against the Regulations under the Act can adequately be dealt with by a Court of Summary Jurisdiction or should be tried by a jury is left to the military authorities, and the Chief Secretary has not power to control their discretion in the matter.

I am afraid I must ask for notice of that question. My hon. Friend will notice that it is a matter for the military authorities and not for my right hon. Friend.

Lead Industry (Australia)

asked the Secretary of' State for the Colonies if he is aware that at the beginning of the War the chief lead-producing companies in Australia, with a view to relieving the industry from German domination, raised a large capital sum for the development of local smelting and offered the whole of their refined output to the Imperial Government upon terms to be fixed by the War Office; if this offer was accepted; and if the Imperial Government are taking any steps to support the retention of this trade in British hands after the conclusion of the War?

I understand that capital was raised for the purpose indicated, but no offer of the kind referred to was made through the Colonial Office. The position of the Australian base metal industry at the end of the War is under the consideration of His Majesty's Government.

National Insurance Act

Administrative Economies

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether the recent circulars of the Local Government Board calling the attention of public bodies to the desirability of economy were intended to apply to insurance committees; if so, whether any estimate of economies in response to these suggestions have been received from insurance committees; if so, to what figure do they amount; whether such economies are being accompanied by a marked curtailment of sanatorium and other treatment of tuberculosis; and, if so, whether it is in contemplation to continue the full charge for these benefits to assured parties, notwithstanding the partial cessation of tuberculosis benefits under the Act?

The Local Government Board do not supervise the administration of insurance committees, but the Insurance Commissioners have been careful to scrutinise the administrative expenditure of the committees from the point of view of economy. No administrative economies could, however, affect the amount of the funds available for the treatment of insured persons suffering from tuberculosis. These funds are provided by Statute, and there is no foundation whatever for the misleading statements, to which publicity has recently been given, that the provision of these funds is in danger of cessation. Apart from the temporary diminution in the income of insurance committees due to enlistment, the position of insured persons who apply for sanatorium benefit has not in any way been altered to their detriment in consequence of war conditions.

Is my hon. Friend not aware that in London alone there are hundreds upon the waiting list, and that the body which he represents is recommending a reduction of beds?

As I told the hon. Member yesterday, the number of persons in London on the waiting list for treatment in residential institutions is 210. It is not the case that the Insurance Commissioners have done more than recommend the proper classification of applicants for the different forms of sanatorium treatment, which is now rendered possible by the institution of a general scheme of dispensary treatment in London.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that many experienced workers in the approved societies are publicly making suggestions with the object of effecting large economies in the working of the National Insurance Act; and whether, as chairman of the Retrenchment Committee, he has decided to confine the evidence taken on this subject to Government officials?

It is open to anyone to write to the Retrenchment Committee on the subject of economies in Civil expenditure. In most cases oral evidence would probably be unnecessary, but it has not been decided to hear the evidence of Government officials only.

Approved Societies (Financial Position)

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, if the date of valuation of the approved societies has yet been fixed; if he is aware that different societies have had widely different sickness experience; and what steps are the Commissioners taking to allay the anxiety felt by certain societies about their position owing to the effect of the War on their membership?

As regards the first two parts of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies which I gave on the 14th and 26th ultimo. I am not at present in a position to add anything further, but I hope I may be able to make a statement before long. I may remind the hon. Member, in reference to the views attributed by him to approved societies in the concluding part of the question, that substantial advantages were secured to societies by the amending Act of 1915.

Questions

Coal Prices

asked the President of the Board of Trade if the arrangement which he made in July with London coal merchants with reference to the prices charged to consumers for coal is being adhereed to; and if the Board of Trade will publish official prices for various classes of coal which should rule in the different districts of London under this arrangement?

I have no reason to suppose that the coal merchants who accepted this arrangement are not loyally observing it. I do not think it would be practicable to publish maximum retail prices for the several districts in view of the difference of qualities, pit-head prices and railway rates.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the arrangement made in May, 1915, between the President of the Board of Trade and the principal coal merchants in and about London for a limitation of the profits to be made by them from the sale of house hold coal during the summer months has been continued for the autumn and winter; whether he can state the substance of this arrangement; and whether, seeing that it is important that the public should know the names of the merchants who have entered into this arrangement, he will take steps to give publicity to the list of such merchants, which was issued as a Parliamentary Paper on 16th September last, whether by posting such list up in public places or otherwise?

The arrangement in question is being continued till further notice. It provided for the addition of not more than 7s. 6d. per ton to the cost of coal to the merchant at the depot, or 9s. 6d. in the case of coal sold from trolleys. The Board of Trade have recently agreed to the addition of 6d. to these amounts to cover further proved increases in the costs of distribution. I will consider whether it is necessary to publish in any other way the list of merchants who have accepted the arrangement, but it may be purchased at the present time for a penny.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider that it is really to the interest of the poorer consumers to know what coal merchants have entered into the arrangement?

I have chosen the most convenient and, I thought, the cheapest form of publicity. If the hon. and learned Gentleman can suggest some other method of letting it be more widely known, I will consider it.

May not the arrangement be interfered with by the alleged shortness of supplies?

No; so far as the price is concerned, I hope there will be no change in the arrangement. We are giving full consideration to more abundant supplies being brought to London, and we hope to get over the difficulty.

Railwaymen (War Bonus)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether all grades of railwaymen are entitled to the war bonus, and on the South-Eastern and Chatham Railway it has been paid to all grades of men ecept station foremen, yard foremen, and foremen shunters; if so, can he say why an exception has been made in the case of these men, and will he see that these men are paid the war bonus?

The question of the grades of railway men who receive a war bonus is one for the railway companies. I will, however, ask for the observations of the managing committee of the South-Eastern and Chatham Railway on the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, and will let him know the result.

Board of Inventions

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the number of inventors who have sent in proposals to the Board of Inventions and the number of inventions accepted by the Board; whether it is the practice to invite inventors to attend before the Board to explain the details of their proposals; and if it is the practice to return drawings or models to persons whose proposals have not been favourably considered?

Proposals have been received from something like 8,000 inventors, many of whom have sent in several different proposals. I scarcely think it would be desirable to state the number which have been accepted; but, as is to be expected, the proportion of possibly useful inventions is small. In all cases where it is found that the proposals may be of value inventors are invited to attend and explain their inventions, and in such cases where the inventors have small means and make the request expenses are paid to enable them to attend. Models are returned in all cases where requested. Drawings and descriptions are not returned except in special cases. This is provided for in the form sent to each inventor on receipt of his first communication.

Aircraft Raids

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he had received representations from the Deptford and other Metropolitan borough councils urging that, in place of issuing regulations regarding the lighting of the streets and business premises, more strenuous and effective measures might be adopted whereby the enemy's aircraft may be prevented from getting beyond the coast and raiding our towns and cities; and whether he is in a position to give the citizens of London and elsewhere some assurances upon the subject?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the various answers already given by my right hon. Friend the First Lord on the subject. As he has indicated, the whole question of the defence of London against enemy aircraft is the subject of the closest attention.

Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm the statement appearing in to-day's papers about the building of larger airships?

Loss of Cruisers ("Cressy" Class)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will now lay Papers respecting the loss of the three cruisers of the "Cressy" class in the North Sea last September?

I should have been glad to comply with the hon. and gallant Gentleman's request, if for no other reason, because I think the Papers would entirely dispose of much erroneous and ill-informed criticism passed upon the late First Lord of the Admiralty in connection with the loss of the three cruisers. After full reflection, however, I am convinced that it would not be in the interests of the public service to lay Papers on particular incidents connected with the War at the present time. If Papers are laid in connection with one incident, they can hardly be refused in connection with another; and I cannot think that any useful purpose would be served by a discussion on the personal questions which would thus be raised.

Is it not to the public advantage that a distinguished Member of the Cabinet should be relieved from the odium of the sort of accusation which has been made against him with regard to the sinking of these three cruisers during the last six months?

I cannot anticipate the answer which the First Lord himself will doubtless give to a question of a similar character which my hon. and gallant Friend has on the Paper for next Wednesday.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some months ago I invited the late First Lord of the Admiralty to make a statement on the subject and he said he had nothing to say?

Captured German Trawlers

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the twenty-seven German trawlers captured and brought into Grimsby are being utilised by his Department for any purpose whatever; and, if so, whether that use prevents the necessity of commandeering the few Granton trawlers now remaining that are supplying cheap food for the Glasgow and Clyde districts?

I am afraid that I cannot add anything to my previous reply to my hon. Friend on 28th. October.

Economy (Boards of Guardians)

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that certain boards of guardians have been experimenting with new dietary, and even in cases where the dinners have been approved by the medical officers as nourishing and enjoyed by the inmates of the workhouses, and where a new variety has been added, at the same time resulting in substantial economy, his Board has prohibited the change; and if this decision has been the result of red tape or, if not, why have the changes been prohibited?

The hon. Member has been good enough to inform me of the union which he has in mind. I find that no objection has been taken to any of the proposals made by the guardians of that union for alterations of dietary.

Liquor Industry (Men of Military Age)

asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will state the number of men of military age who registered themselves as engaged in the manufacture, distribution, or sale of intoxicating liquors on 15th August last?

The classification adopted for the National Register does not enable me to give the figure desired.

Irish Emigrants

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps, if any, the Government will take to protect young Irish men and women travellers from the insults and jeers of a number of Englishmen who stay at home and receive good wages, wages denied to the agricultural classes of Ireland owing to the Government not insisting on the arable land of the country being cultivated and thus provide employment for those Irishmen who have to seek a living in a foreign but friendly country; and, as Ireland has been drained of over half its population by emigration, which was allowed to continue up to the present year without any protest or any attempt to stop it by England or the English people, he will state whether the Cunard Company acted on Government instructions, or if the Government has sanctioned their action in refusing to allow Irishmen to sail to a neutral country; and if they will be allowed to sail on future occasions without being molested?

The reply to the first point is that any protection which may be necessary will be given by the local police. As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to replies to questions on this subject yesterday.

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that, whereas the Cunard Company have issued a notice to the effect that they cannot accept bookings for America of British subjects who are fit and eligible for military service, and refused to allow a number of such emigrants to sail on Saturday last, some 200 young Irishmen, mainly agricultural labourers, left Glasgow by the Anchor Line for New York on Saturday; and whether, in view of the national importance of keeping young men in this country who are needed for agriculture and other essential trades, as well as for the military defence of the country, he will issue instructions to prevent emigration at the present time of men of military age, and not leave it to the individual initiative of the different steamship companies?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Home Secretary yesterday. I understand he is preparing to make a further statement on Tuesday.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the answer to which he refers me of the comparison of normal or average rates of emigration have little, if any, bearing upon the question I asked?

Undesirable Aliens

asked the Home Secretary the number of undesirables expelled from this country during the last three months?

No such figures can well be given. In view of the policy of repatriation it has not been necessary to determine that an alien was "undesirable" before requiring him to leave this country. On the other hand, there are a number of undesirable aliens who could not, in the interest of this country, be returned to Germany, and who have therefore been interned here.

German Civilians Interned

asked the Home Secretary the number of German civilians now interned in this country, the number of additions during the past three months, and the number of appeals for liberation approved in the same period?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for the Brentford Division on 28th October. The number of German civilians now interned is 26,679.

Press Bureau (Sinking of Transport "Ramazan")

asked the Home Secretary whether the Press Bureau refused to pass for publication in the British Press until 6th November the news of the sinking of the transport "Ramazan," although it had permitted a cable announcing the fact to pass through London for publication in the American Press of 29th September; and, if so, will he state the policy governing this action?

No, Sir. The true facts were explained yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War.

Lighting Regulations (Metropolis)

asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been drawn to the very different views taken by Metropolitan police magistrates in dealing with cases of excessive lights under the lighting regulations brought before them, in certain Courts a fine of 2s. 6d. or 5s. being imposed, whilst at another Court fines of £10, £15, and £20 is imposed on comparatively poor persons for similar offences; and will he take into consideration the remittance of these heavier fines in cases where it is impossible for the person to find the money?

I will, of course, consider any representations that may be made to me with proper particulars of any case in which the punishment imposed is alleged to be excessive, but I may say at once that the fact that some benches have imposed very light fines for offences of this description does not of itself afford sufficient ground for the exercise of the prerogative in other cases where the fines have been heavier. The amount of the fine must depend in part on the character and circumstances of the offence, but it ought also to depend, as my hon. Friend suggests, on the means of the defendant and the pecuniary sacrifice necessary for him to pay it.

Government Departments (Economies)

asked the Prime Minister if, with a view to encouraging local authorities and private individuals to exercise economy during the War, he will have collated from the several Civil Departments of the Government Reports showing in detail the economies being effected by them, and publish a summary of the financial results of these Government savings?

No, Sir; I do not think that the compilation suggested would afford any useful guidance to local authorities or individuals.

Prolongation of Parliament

asked the Prime Minister when it is proposed to introduce the Bill providing for the avoidance of a General Election during the continuance of the War?

I must refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for North Somerset.

asked the Prime Minister whether the life of the present Parliament ends on 1st January or 31st January, 1916?

asked the Prime Minister if he could inform the House why the Government arranged to have the official announcement of the decision of the Cabinet with regard to extending the life of the present Parliament made by a member of the Cabinet in the House of Lords on Wednesday, 3rd November, when the same information was withheld from the House of Commons on the previous day?

I assumed it was common knowledge that the Government were contemplating proposals for extending the life of the present Parliament, and no more than that was said by my Noble Friend Lord Lansdowne in the House of Lords. I added that I could not make a statement as to the form that those proposals will take. They are still under consideration and will in due course be introduced into this House.

In view of what is happening, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he intends to proceed shortly with the reform of the House of Lords?

In view of the recent debates there, does the right hon. Gentleman not think it urgent?

Memorial to Members Killed

asked the Prime Minister if he is taking into consideration the appropriateness of providing a permanent memorial to those Members of both Houses of Parliament who have fallen, or who may fall, in the service of their country in the course of the present War?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his suggestion, but I am sure he will understand that the time has not yet come when we can arrive at decisions as to the commemoration of those who have fallen in the War.

Mr. Churchill (Prime Minister's Tribute)

asked the Prime Minister whether it is yet possible to lay Papers respecting the Antwerp Expedition?

I must refer my hon. Friend to the answer already given him by the First Lord of the Admiralty, which is pertinent in this case also. I regret that it is not possible to lay Papers on this subject during the continuance of the War.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether his right hon. colleague is to continue to labour during the rest of this War under' the accusations brought forward by Mr. Thomas Gibson Bowles and others?

I think my right hon. Friend may well treat with a good deal of indifference allegations of that kind. He has a good record, which will be amply justified when the whole story is known.

Dublin Fusiliers (Private W. Maker)

asked the Postmaster-General (1) why the allowance of 16s. per week payable by the Post Office to the dependants of Private William Maher, No. 21,489, Dublin Fusiliers, formerly postman at Abbeyleix, Queen's County, Ireland, who enlisted last May, was first reduced to 8s. 11d. per week, then to 6s. 6d., and finally stopped; (2) why Private William Maher, No. 21,489, 1st Battalion Dublin Fusiliers, now serving at the Dardanelles, and who prior to his enlistment last May was employed as a postman at Abbeyleix, Queen's County, Ireland, has not received any war bonus in respect of his employment as postman; and whether postmen who have voluntarily joined the Colours will be paid the war bonus?

I am having inquiry made in the matter, and I will communicate with the hon. Member at an early date.

News Telegraph Service

asked the Postmaster-General if he has received a communication from a large firm of engineers and Government contractors offering to enter into an agreement under which they would undertake to handle the whole of the news traffic of the country at last year's rates and consequently enable the Government to avoid the necessity of raising the charges on Press telegrams, and also undertaking to do the work more expeditiously than it is done at present; if he will state whether the offer in question was made at his request; and if he has any explanation to give in reply to the suggestion contained in the offer, namely, that the loss in his Department on news telegrams has been due to inefficiency and wasteful expenditure?

I have received an offer from a firm of telegraph instrument makers on the lines referred to. It was not made at my request, and it is not practicable to accept it. With respect to the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to my speech on the Second Reading of the Postal and Telegraph Rates Bill.

Munitions

Private and State Work

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that considerable dissatisfaction exists amongst the skilled employés of Messrs. Clement Talbot, Limited, motor engineers, Acton, owing to the fact that they are kept employed on a large proportion of private work and are so prevented from producing munitions; whether he can say what efforts have been made to persuade this firm to dilute their skilled labour with unskilled men; what number of war munition volunteers have been enrolled amongst their employés; and whether he will have inquiries made into the matter?

My right hon. Friend's attention has been called to the matter, which is now being considered by the Ministry in consultation with the War Office. Thirteen of the men employed by this firm have enrolled as War Munition Volunteers.

Royal Albert Home, Belvedere

asked the Minister of Munitions whether it has been proposed to take over the Royal Albert Home at Belvedere; is he aware that of the ninety-two inmates one is ninety-two years of age, fifteen between eighty and ninety; forty between seventy and eighty, and the remainder between sixty-three and seventy; and will he consider the inadvisability of disturbing these old people, many of whom are in bad health and can only be removed at great risk, and obtain other premises in which to house munition workers?

In view of the very great congestion in the Belvedere district, it has been found necessary to make use of the Royal Albert Home for the housing of munition workers. The authorities of the Home are satisfied with the arrangements made to provide other accommodation for the inmates, and every endeavour will be made to reduce to a minimum the inconveniences to them caused by the transfer.

Will the greatest precaution be taken in moving these very old people, or something serious will happen to them?

Yes; that has already been done, and the arrangements made have apparently met with the full approval of the authorities of the Home.

Enlisted Workers

asked the Minister of Munitions, with regard to munition workers who have enlisted for six months, whether the period of enlistment dates from the first day on which the enlisted worker commenced work at a munitions establishment; whether, if the War is still in progress when the enlistment period ends, the enlisted worker will be asked to enlist again for another period, and, if so, for how long; and whether, if further enlistment is asked for, the workers concerned will be allowed the opportunity to change, if they desire to do so, to another establishment for the period of their further enlistment?

The undertaking signed by War Munition volunteers is to accept employment on making munitions of war in such controlled establishments as may be named by the Minister, and to remain in such employment during the War for so long as required (not exceeding six months in all), subject to the conditions set out on the form of enrolment. It will be seen that the period of six months dates from the day when the workman first took up work in a controlled establishment named by the Minister. The form of enrolment provides for the possibility of inviting the workman to enrol for a further period at the end of the first period, but my right hon. Friend is not now prepared to state what in that event would be the precise terms upon which re-enlistment would be made.

Questions

Municipal Expenditure

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether a circular was issued in August by the Local Government Board of Scotland advising local authorities to curtail expenditure on parks, recreation grounds, libraries, street lighting, and other objects, with the object of reducing local rates in view of the increased Imperial taxation due to the War; if so, will he say how many local authorities responded to that circular by reduction of their rates; and will he give the names; of the local authorities, if any, that have increased their local rates, notwithstanding the appeal of his Department?

Following an earlier circular dealing with another aspect of the same subject, the circular referred to was issued in August to some 2,000 local authorities throughout Scotland rating for all kinds of local purposes, including those specified by my hon. Friend. I could not give a detailed reply on the points suggested without the issue of a further circular asking for specific information, and I do not think the time for such action has yet arrived.

Does the right hon. Gentleman know whether his circular has had any effect at all in Scotland?

We must give a little time. We cannot tell in the following week whether the circular has been effective in reducing the rates.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say how long he desires before he expects to see the effect?

Finance (No. 3) Bill

Income Tax (Officers' Allowances)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether persons such as medical and other officers of institutions receiving residential, boarding, and laundry allowances as part of their pay are taxed for Income Tax purposes on the actual salary paid to them, and that these allowances are not treated as part of their income, whilst non-resident officials of the same institutions are taxed on their full salary?

The officers referred to would be liable to Income Tax in respect of all pecuniary emoluments of their office, but not in respect of allowances in kind not convertible into money.

Landlord and Tithe Owner

asked whether a farmer whose rent includes tithe will be entitled to deduct the amount of the tithe in order to arrive at his assessment under Schedule B?

No, Sir. Income Tax, Schedule B, is chargeable by reference to full annual value, which is not affected by any question of the division of that value between the landlord and the tithe owner.

Weekly Wage Earners

asked whether he is aware that at present a considerable number of weekly wage earners are assessed for Income Tax by the General Commissioners; whether he can state, approximately, the number of such wage earners; whether any serious defects have been discovered in this mode of assessment of such wage earners; and whether, under the provisions of the Finance (No. 3) Bill as they now stand, the assessment of the weekly wage earners, who have hitherto been assessed by the General Commissioners, will in future be made by the General Commissioners or by the surveyor of taxes?

Employés hitherto in assessment have mainly belonged to the salaried class, and have been assessed either by Departmental Commissioners, Special Commissioners, or General Commissioners, according to the circumstances of the case. The reduction of the exemption limit will render liable to the charge very large numbers of manual wage earners for whose benefit quarterly assessment and collection have been devised, and the assessment by the surveyor of taxes will be subject to appeal to the General Commissioners.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the first part of my question, whether a considerable number of weekly wage earners are assessed by the General Commissioners?

Yes, I have answered it. I have referred to the class of weekly wage earners—that is to say, the class mentioned by my hon. Friend in his question. The classes hitherto assessed have mainly belonged to the salaried classes. There have been no doubt a certain number of wage earners.

Could the right hon. Gentleman give an approximate estimate of the number of weekly wage earners so assessed?

National Economy

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of his repeated statements that the financial situation of this country is serious, he will issue an appeal to all classes to practise the utmost economy?

The need to practise economy to which my hon. Friend refers is most urgent. Financial considerations in war are necessarily of the gravest importance, and the restriction of wasteful and unnecessary expenditure is imperative.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make the appeal as suggested, so that the matter may be brought to the notice of all parties?

I can assure my hon. Friend that the appeal has been issued, and I hope that all classes of the community will take note of the urgency of the appeal.

Has the right hon. Gentleman ever heard the saying that example is better than precept?

Bank Amalgamation

asked whether the refusal of the Treasury Committee to sanction the issue of shares by Barclay's Bank to enable it to carry out the amalgamation with the United Counties Bank was in order to prevent the diversion of funds otherwise available for the subscription of war loans; and, if not, on what grounds was the sanction refused?

As a large amount of the information on which the Committee's decisions are based is confidential, I am not prepared to state the particular reasons which have led to a decision in any individual case.

Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)

Dependants of Deceased Sailors and Soldiers

asked what date it is intended that the pensions to dependants of deceased sailors and soldiers under the scales proposed by the scheme of the 25th October, 1915, shall commence to be paid; whether the authority of the House of Commons will be obtained for such payments before they are made; and, if so, on what occasion and under what form such authority will be asked for?

The express authority of Parliament is not necessary to enable the scheme to be put in force. The Order in Council and Royal Warrant have not yet been issued, and for the present the separation allowances paid to dependants (other than wives and children) of soldiers during their life-time are being continued at the rates of prior dependence, subject to the maxima set out in the scheme.

Irish Guards (Lance-Corporal Byrne)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he received a letter dated the 4th August, 1915, from John J. Bryne, Pentre, Glamorgan, detailing the case of his brother Lance-Corporal P. J. Bryne, No. 2864, Irish Guards, who, after serving with the Colours for some time, was discharged as medically unfit, having contracted consumption whilst on service; and whether, taking into consideration Byrne's previous service in the Army before rejoining after the outbreak of the War, he will receive a pension or some allowance from the Army funds?

Yes, Sir. The letter was received and a reply sent by the Secretary of Chelsea Hospital on the 24th of that month, explaining that, as his disability was not attributable to military service, he was not eligible for pension from Army funds.

East Lancashire Royal Field Artillery

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, respecting Gunner Robert V. Walmsley, No. 792, East Lancashire Royal Field Artillery, killed in the Dardanelles, and whose mother is a widow, if she is entitled to a pension or an allowance in consequence of her son's death?

No, Sir. I have ascertained that as the mother was not dependent upon her son, a pension cannot be granted.

Apprentices (Separation Allowance to Parents)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the present practice of refusing to grant separation allowance to parents of young soldiers who have left their work as apprentices in order to enlist, many of whom were nearly approaching the end of their term of apprenticeship when they enlisted, and would soon have been earning journeyman's wages, whilst, on the other hand, parents of young soldiers who have profited by allowing their sons to earn comparatively-high wages in blind-alley occupations are granted separation allowance, penalises parents who have made great sacrifices for their children's welfare; and, if so, what he intends to do in the matter?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on this subject to the hon. Member for Falkirk Burghs on the 26th October, to which I am unable to add anything.

Veterinary Officers (Territorial Force)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether veterinary officers of the Territorial Force holding lieutenants' commissions will, at the expiration of twelve months' service, be promoted to the rank of temporary captain in the same way as veterinary officers in the New Armies are now promoted?

I have some hope that this may be possible, but I cannot give any pledge.

Officers' Mess

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that in the officers' mess of some regiments it is the practice to make standing arrangements to share equally among the officers the cost of wine, etc., used at mess, and also in some cases the practice to have periodical guest nights when the dinner expenses of all guests are shared equally among the officers; and whether, in view of the fact that many officers at the present time are unable to afford such expenses and that the cost of such arrangements is a burden which it is invidious for an individual officer to object to, steps will be taken immediately to put an end to such an arrangement or any arrangements of a similar kind?

I have no information that practices such as that described in the question exist. If they exist, I can only say that they are contrary to the King's Regulations. It is only in the case of regimental entertainments, duly authorised by the General Officer Commanding, that the sharing of the expense amongst the officers is allowed, and in that case the shares are assessed according to rank. If the hon. Gentleman has a specific case in mind, perhaps he will kindly furnish me with it.

Capture of Guns at Loos (London Irish)

asked whether, in the recent advance on Loos, the London Irish captured five field guns; whether any of these guns are being exhibited, and, if so, are notices attached to these guns stating that they were taken by the London Irish; and whether arrangements will be made that guns captured by Irish regiments will be exhibited in Ireland?

The War Office have no information as to any gun having been captured by the London Irish. As regards the exhibition of the guns captured, I informed the House on the 9th November of the arrangements made. I may add that a proportion of the guns have been ordered to be sent to Ireland.

Am I right in assuming from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the War Office has no information about the capture of these guns by the London Irish; that what he means is that there is no statement to that effect in the official report of the General Officer Commanding at the front? Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to doubt that the statements which have been published in various authentic quarters as to the capture of these guns and the gallantry of the Irish regiments generally are true? And is it in the interests of the country that the gallant achievements of particular regiments should be suppressed?

My hon. and learned Friend is correct in the first supposition that he has put forward. I have no reason, on the other hand, to suppose that the capture of these guns was not made by the London Irish. I believe that it is so, though I have not received any authentic information such as that which has been hinted at by the hon. and learned Gentleman. With regard to policy generally, I must say that I think it very desirable that gallant deeds should be made known.

Will the War Office take some steps to let generals in the field understand that these things ought not to be suppressed in the case of any regiment?

If I show the right hon. Gentleman a letter on the subject, will he ask the General Officer Commanding whether the statements made in that letter are true or false?

Yes. If my hon. Friend will be so good, I shall be glad to do what he suggests.

Army Medical Department

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability, in view of the shortage of medical officers for the Army, of transferring the greater part of the administrative work of the Army Medical Department and Royal Army Medical Corps to laymen, and appointing laymen for administrative purposes to the commissioned ranks of the Royal Army Medical Corps?

I am afraid I cannot accept the principle which underlies my hen. Friend's question The work of the administrative officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps is technical work, and requires a special education and experience. It cannot, I think, be performed by laymen.

Can my right hon. Friend say how many doctors have been employed in this manner during the period of the War?

Of course, I cannot answer that offhand. A large number of the higher officials of the Royal Army Medical Corps are engaged in military work.

I am very doubtful about that. If my hon. Friend will put down a question I will inquire.

Messengers and Porters (War Bonus)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) if he can state whether any decision has been arrived at with regard to the extension of the war bonus to the messengers and porters employed in the different War Departments; and, if not, can he say when a decision may be expected; and (2) when it is proposed to give the war bonus to the men in civil employment at the Military Hospital, Devonport?

It has been decided to give a war bonus to men at the out-stations. The amount and the application to individual classes will be announced next week.

Sandbags

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will explain why it has been officially stated that no further sandbags are required, whilst letters from officers and men at the front continue to arrive asking eagerly for more to be sent?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on this subject to the hon. Member for Devizes on the 26th ultimo, to which I am afraid I have nothing to add.

Will the hon. Gentleman make inquiries of officers and men in the trenches as to what is occurring?

We have recently sent a senior member of the War Office Staff to make inquiries on the spot throughout that portion of France occupied, and the answer I gave is based on information brought back after investigations on the spot.

:Is it not the fact that there are many millions of sandbags in the north of France?

Continued Service

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the Secretary of State has made any general or special regulations in accordance with which a soldier who wishes to continue his service in the Army when the period of his present enlistment expires must make a declaration before his commanding officer as provided in Section 87 (4) of the Army Act, 1906; and, if so, what is the number or description of the said regulations?

My hon. Friend will find in Army Orders 252 and 253 of this year, instructions issued on this subject in reference to the time-expired men of the Regular force and of the Territorial force respectively.

Deaths from Illness

asked the Undersecretary for War whether he can inform the House if the total number of casualties recently given includes any number representing deaths and serious incapacity resulting from illness; and, if not, whether he can state what addition should be made to those figures in respect of deaths and serious incapacity from sickness?

The figure given for casualties, of which the latest statement was that given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 28th October last, include deaths from all causes of men serving with the Expeditionary Forces or men invalided from them. They do not include any cases of sickness not resulting in death, and the figures for men invalided from the Service for sickness as distinct from those invalided for wounds are not readily available.

Artillery Officees (Promotion)

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether, in order to improve the prospects of advancement of officers of Cavalry regiments, it has been decided to offer them promotion into the Artillery and Infantry; whether he is aware that the promotion of Artillery officers has been comparatively slower than in the Infantry in the present War and that they would be prejudicially affected by the proposed introduction of Cavalry officers; and whether the opinion of officers commanding Artillery brigades at the front as to the effect it would have on the prospects of captains of Artillery now commanding batteries and as to the effect on the efficiency of those batteries has been ascertained?

The matter is still Tinder consideration, and I cannot, I fear, make any statement to-day, but I note the points which my hon. and gallant Friend brings to notice in his question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is intended by the War Office that a captain of Cavalry, say, of six years' service, is to be offered promotion to major into the Artillery, and to take command of a battery over the head of a captain, say, of eight years' service who may be now commanding it?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Artillery promotion is still further retarded by a practice of making lieutenants do the work of captains without getting the rank or pay?

Dardanelles Expeditionary Force (Canned Beef Supply)

asked the Undersecretary for War whether he is aware that men invalided home from the Dardanelles have made charges against the canned beef supplied to the Expeditionary Force, alleging that it caused intense thirst and that it was responsible for outbreaks of diarrhœa; and, as the complaints chiefly come from the New Zealanders, whether he will inquire at the New Zealand hospital, Walton-on-Thames, and other centres where Australian and New Zealand invalids are located, as to what foundation exists for these charges?

The canned beef supplied to the Dardanelles is the same as that supplied to the rest of the Army in France and elsewhere. It is manufactured under most careful supervision by medical experts. It has not caused diarrhœa elsewhere, and there is, therefore, no reason to hold it accountable for the diarrhœa in the Dardanelles. I am aware that this form of sickness has been prevalent in the Dardanelles. As regards the last part of the question, I will have inquiry made.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this diet was unsuitable to the climatic conditions of the Dardanelles?

I dare say my hon. Friend is quite right, but he must remember that in time of war it is not always easy to supply everything.

Military Hospital Nurses

asked the Under-Secretary whether military hospital nurses are compelled to buy their uniforms piecemeal from West-End firms who have to pay heavy rents, i.e., the cloth from one retailer, millinery from another, and linen from a third; and, if so, seeing that such restrictions mean greater expense to the nurses, will he give instructions that they shall be permitted to purchase in the open market?

The nurses attached to the Queen Alexandra's Imperial Military Nursing Service do not purchase their uniform piecemeal as stated. One firm in London stock all they require, and a similar arrangement has been made in Dublin, Edinburgh, and some of the large provincial towns. This system has secured uniformity in pattern and material and has proved an assistance to the nurses themselves, who are thus able to obtain advice from firms well acquainted with what is necessary. There is no extra expense to the nurses, as the allowance for uniform given is sufficient to cover the prices charged.

Will these nurses be allowed to buy in the open market, and thus save 25 per cent. of their purchase money?

Russians of Military Age

asked the Undersecretary whether he can state the number of men of military age in the Russian Empire and the number that have so far been called to the Colours?

The hon. Gentleman will, I think, realise on further consideration that it is inexpedient to make any statement on the second part of his question. As regards the first, I may say that the number of men of military age in the Russian Empire at the beginning of the War is estimated to have been 21,400,000.

Sinking of Transport in æGean Sea

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if he can state when publication will be permitted of the facts relating to the sinking of a transport in the Ægean some time ago, when a large number of Australian soldiers on board showed exemplary discipline, and all of whom volunteered to return from the boats to stoke the boilers, and provided the necessary complement on the captain deciding, subsequent to the abandonment of the vessel, that it might be beached, and so enabled this to be done; and can he say whether General Sir Ian Hamilton mentioned this exploit in a dispatch; and, if so, can he say why reference to it has been suppressed?

I understand that prior to my hon. Friend's question a communiqué had already been prepared and this will be issued at once. As regards the second part of the question, I am not aware that Sir Ian Hamilton has made any reference to the conduct of the Australians on the occasion in question in any dispatch so far received. The vessel referred to was not sunk, but reached Mudros under her own steam. Though I have no reason for thinking that Australians did not display courage and discipline on this as on many other occasions, I can only say that the War Office has no report in the sense of what my hon. Friend states.

Will the right hon. Gentleman secure a full report of the circumstances of this case, in which it was stated that the Australian Division, with guns and munitions on board this boat, were brought to the beach, and that it was the gallantry of the captain and volunteers, in view of the fact that a report was spread of a panic among the soldiers—

I stated in my answer that a communiqué has been prepared and will be issued at once.

No-Conscription Fellowship

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he can now give the reasons which led the competent military authority for the Manchester district to warn the honorary secretary of the No-Conscription Fellowship against holding further private meetings, of members of the fellowship in Manchester; and whether he is aware that a largely attended meeting of Manchester members of the fellowship was held on the night of 5th November without military or police interference?

I have acquainted myself with the nature of the warning given, which was to the effect that meetings such as some of those held by the fellowship were contrary to the national spirit, and that, if continued, more serious notice would be taken. Such serious notice would have been under, and within the limits of, the Defence of the Realm Regulations. I have no information regarding the meeting referred to in the second part of the question, nor whether any of the speeches made at it were open to objection as being seditious or disloyal.

Is not the policy supported by this society the declared policy of the Government?

If the policy of this society were confined to that contained in its name I should say "Yes" to that question, but I understand that it has other and different policies.

As this is a purely private fellowship, is there no supreme authority which can prevent these arbitrary military acts?

I do not know what my hon. Friend exactly means by purely private society, but when it meets and issues to its members literature or statements of a seditious kind, then I think it is time for the military to interfere.

Has any member of this society done anything more seditious than the Archbishop, who says the clergy should not enlist?

I have in my possession statements made by a member of this society which were very much more seditious.

Army Contracts (Ireland)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware that Irish manufacturers of the following goods, namely, blankets, canvas, hosiery, bedding, paints and chests, shirts, canvas goods, brushes, harness and saddlery, varnishes, soaps, shirtings, linens, khaki cloth, sewing cotton, boots, disinfectants, enamels, polishes, inks, linen goods, clothing, furniture, boot uppers, wood boxes, and turnery work, are prepared to undertake Army contracts in sufficient quantity to warrant the establishment of an Army receiving depot in Ireland; and whether, under the circumstances, he will consider the advisability of immediately establishing such a depot in Ireland?

I cannot at present add anything to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for St. Patrick's Division, Dublin, on the 2nd instant.

Military Acquisition of Land (Ripon)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction among occupiers of land at Ripon whose land has been taken for military purposes but to whom no compensation has yet been paid though the amounts have been agreed upon; and whether he can secure the payment of such claims at an early date?

I am informed that payments have now been made to the occupiers of land at Ripon whose land was taken for military purposes.

Military Dispatch Bearers

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office the number of military dispatch bearers who are receiving the pay of £400 per year, and how many are of military age?

The number is fourteen, but as regards the age of these officers I have no information.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many gentlemen over military age who will do this work without pay?

The whole matter is I think, engaging the personal attention of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister

Bully Beef

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is. aware that continual representations have been made with reference to the waste involved in the issue of 1 lb. tins of bully beef; and whether he will insist that contractors shall in addition to 1 lb. tins issue tins of ½ lb. and ¾ lb., respectively?

No, Sir; I have not received any representations such as my hon. Friend suggests. My hon. Friend may not be aware that the 1 lb. tins contain only ¾ lb. of meat, but I will consider whether any saving would be likely to result from having also a smaller size tin, having regard to the additional cost of the necessary plant required for its manufacture.

Will the hon. Gentleman insist on the contractors' supplying small tins?

War Loan

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the details of the scheme by which the subordinate members of the Civil Service were enabled to subscribe to the recent War Loan; and what was the result?

I will send my hon. Friend a copy of the scheme. The total amount of stock subscribed for under the scheme was about £86,900.

Questions

Treasury Bills

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the issue of Treasury Bills has now passed the experimental stage; and whether arrangements can be made for the issue of Treasury Bills at all bank offices in the United Kingdom and in such denominations as may be suitable to the small investor as well as the large investor?

This matter has been very carefully considered, but I am not satisfied that it would be advisable to alter the existing arrangements at present.

Attendance of Cabinet Ministers

I beg to ask the Prime Minister a question, of which I have given him private notice: Whether, seeing that the operations in the Dardanelles have not been discussed by the House for many months, and that due notice was yesterday given through the usual Parliamentary channels that this question would be debated, is he aware that not one of the twenty-two Members of the Cabinet was present last evening, and that the House, as a protest, unanimously agreed to adjourn; and will he say why he has taken no steps to see that the old-established custom of this House has been followed, that a Cabinet Minister should always be in charge of the House when matters of importance were under discussion; and whether he is aware that on several occasions recently protests have been made from both sides of the House as to the absence of Cabinet Ministers when important matters were under discussion?

I deeply regret that the absence of Cabinet Ministers—[An HON. MEMBER: "Twenty-two!"]—not twenty-two in this case—[An HON. MEMBER: "Seventeen!"]—last night should have given reason for dissatisfaction. The House will, I am sure, acquit me of any disrespectful intention. I was myself in and out of the House during the earlier part of the evening. When I was informed later that questions connected with the Dardanelles, on which I myself made a statement last week, were likely to be raised, I made arrangements that one of my colleagues of the Cabinet should be in attendance as well as my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War, who was completely conversant with all the military aspects of the matter. There appears to have been some misunderstanding or misadventure which frustrated my intention. I will take all the care I can that there is no recurrence of anything of the kind. I venture to add, and I am sure the House will feel that I am speaking my own sincere mind in the matter, that I am as jealous as anybody of the rights of the House of Commons and as to the duties of Ministers.

War Committee of Cabinet

I stated yesterday, in reply to a question, that I would make a statement to-day as to the composition of the War Committee of the Cabinet. It will consist, during the temporary absence of Lord Kitchener, of five Members:—

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland how many estates are there, and how many tenants on them, whose purchase agreements were made in 1907, by whom all queries were satisfactorily answered and all formalities complied with, where the money has not yet been advanced or the lands vested; and, in view of the serious addition thus made to the purchasing period and to the purchasers' burden, and also of the loss to the State, when and how it is proposed to remedy this growing grievance?

My right hon. Friend is informed by the Estates Commissioners that it would not be possible without a case to cause examination of all the estates in which purchase agreements were lodged in 1907 and in which the purchase money has not been advanced, to give the detailed information asked for by the hon. Member, but it is estimated that there are some eighty estates coming within the terms of the question in which the Commissioners are not in a position at present to advance the purchase money. Estates are dealt with in order of priority under the Regulations made under Section 23 (8) of the Irish Land Act, 1909, and Section 4 of the Irish Land Act, 1909, and pending the advance of the purchase money, the tenants under their purchase agreements pay interest in lieu of rent, which is less than the rent they would otherwise have to pay.

National School Teachers (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he has yet found any solution agreeable to the teachers and the Treasury re the payment of national teachers' salaries in equal monthly payments; and whether, in view of the increased cost of food commodities and the curtailment of credit by traders in Ireland since the War, he will use every endeavour to accede to the request of the teachers without delay?

My right hon. Friend regrets that he is unable to add anything to the reply which he gave to the question on this subject addressed to him by the hon. Member on the 28th October.

National Board of Education (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in view of the continued ignoring by the National Board of Education of the majority of the findings of the Viceregal Committee, with a consequent loss to educational efficiency, the Government intend taking any action to compel the Board to adopt at least such: of the recommendations as do not involve increased outlay and can be carried out without Treasury sanction; and if he can state why the Board have not long since adopted all the recommendations that did not require Treasury sanction?

The Commissioners of National Education state that they have adopted either completely or in a modified form the majority of the recommendations, of the Viceregal Committee of Inquiry, but that certain of the proposals put forward to carry out these recommendations have-not, up to the present, received Treasury sanction, and are not yet operative. As regards the second part of the question,, I am informed that some of the recommendations of the Committee were not regarded by the Commissioners as educationally sound.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in view of the findings of the Viceregal Committee and of the admission that Mr. Mansfield had broken none of the rules of the Commissioners of Education, the Government-will take action to insist on his reinstatement without loss of salary and freed from the humiliating conditions laid down by the National Board of Education, and bring this matter to a final settlement?

Mr. Mansfield, who has signed the form of apology agreed upon, has been reinstated by the Commissioners of National Education in his portion of principal teacher of Cullen Boys' national school.

Irish Egg Trade

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the chief importers of Irish eggs in Glasgow and Manchester still complain that consignments of Irish eggs reach them in a smashed and pilfered condition, consequent on railway companies refusing to carry them at company's risk even when tendered the scheduled freight; and, having regard to the effect of this continued damage on a trade at present so important and to the neglect of previous complaints, whether the Board will now make any effort to find a remedy?

Since I replied to the hon. Member's question of the 19th October I have received one complaint on the subject from a firm in Manchester, and the matter is having attention. I hardly think that the fact that traffic is consigned at owner's risk is likely to render it more liable to damage.

Mails (Buenos Ayres and New York)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the name of the British shipping company which carries the mails and also refrigerated meat from Buenos Ayres to New York?

Has there been any reduction in British shipping between the ports mentioned in the question lately?

I am afraid I cannot say whether there has been any reduction, but we are hoping that the Order in 'Council issued yesterday will bring the shipping between foreign ports more closely under control.

Do the Government propose to commandeer ships necessary for bringing supplies from Buenos Ayres?

Census Statistics

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is proposed to publish, as heretofore, a volume of Census statistics for each county; and, if so, what progress has now been made with it?

The volumes of Census statistics for counties in England and Wales have all long since been published. The last was put on sale last January. In Scotland the publication was by counties from the outset.

Land Settlement (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland if his attention has been called to the unanimous resolution of the Lerwick County Council with reference to land settlement; and whether, in view of the fact that the Scottish Small Landowners' Act does very little for persons like cottars or persons who desire a small holding near a town or village, he will take into favourable consideration the request that an Act should be passed empowering local authorities to acquire land compulsorily and on reasonable terms on the basis of the present assessment?

I have received the resolution referred to, and it will have my attention.

Supplementary Vote of Credit

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

I beg to ask the Prime Minister what business he proposes to take next week?

On Monday, as I stated yesterday, we shall take the Report of the Vote of Credit, and resume the Committee stage of the Finance Bill.

On Tuesday, the Second Heading of the Appropriation Bill.

On Wednesday, the Committee of the Appropriation Bill and the Committee of the Finance Bill.

On Thursday, the Third Reading of the Appropriation Bill, and, if time permits, some stages of the smaller Bills on the Paper.

Supply

Air Service (Defence of London)

I must throw myself on the indulgence of the House, as I have such a shocking cold that I can hardly speak, but I will do my best to make myself heard. I have given notice to the Ministers concerned that I propose to raise the question of the Air Service, and particularly of the Naval Air Service, in conjunction with the defence of London against air raids. I do not think I need trouble the House to-day with any observations with regard to the Military Wing of the Royal Flying Corps, except to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will bear in mind, as I am sure he will, the absolute necessity of larger machines and higher power engines being made during the coming winter. We have learned from the Field-Marshal's report how wonderfully our men in Flanders have beaten the German airmen. I venture to suggest that that has arisen not from the superiority of the machines, but from the superiority of our men. When the War began the machines we had were better than the German machines, but the information which has come to me from members of the Royal Flying Corps is that at the beginning of the spring of 1915 the German Army, having utilised the whole of the winter, brought out a new and much improved form of machine, the Albatross, with 150 or 160 h. p. Mercedes engine. I think I am also right in saying—and I will be careful not to mention any facts which might be useful to the Germans—that while the Germans have standardised their aeroplanes, and practically confined themselves to these large Mercedes engines—and the engine is a very vital part of an aeroplane—we have at the front no less than eight different kinds of aeroplane engines. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should devote himself, and ask his expert advisers to devote themselves as far as possible during the coming winter, to much larger and much more powerful aeroplane engines than we have at the present time.

I know that we have experts of the greatest value and the greatest experience, and there seems to be no reason whatever why our men should be sent up to engage German aeroplanes in single combat in machines whose engine-power is so much less than that of the Germans. I quite realise that in many instances a small English machine has beaten and brought down a larger German machine; but that is because of the superiority, the daring, and the bravery of our men, rather than the superiority of our machines. It is, in fact, rather in spite of the inferiority of many of our machines that these victories, which we all applaud to the utmost of our power, have been achieved over German aeroplanes in France. It is not as if we did not know what these German machines are and of what they are capable. The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that our Air Service and our anti-aircraft guns have brought down during the last few months several absolutely new and first-class German Albatross machines with these new big engines. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman—possibly he has already done it—should have some of these machines sent back here, that he should put his best experts on to them, and so arrange that when the spring, with the offensive flying weather comes for us once more, our men in Flanders will have a fleet of aeroplanes not merely capable of attacking the Germans in single combat, but capable of long-distance flights, which, so far as I can see, is what we really require to accelerate the termination of the War.

With regard to the position of the Royal Naval Air Service, which is primarily responsible for the defence of London against Zeppelins, I want the House to realise that I regard the defence of London really as an incident in the work of the Flying Corps, rather than as the main object of its existence. The Royal Naval Air Service has far more important duties to perform towards bringing about the conclusion of the War than merely the defence of London. But the defence of London is a matter which must be taken in hand by the Royal Flying Corps, and I want to find out what exactly is the position of that corps, and what exactly is being done with regard to the defence of London. I hardly like to say it, but I want to say to my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty that the very essence of the success of the Flying Corps is that the flying officers should have the most absolute and entire confidence in their superiors; and, if he will forgive me for saying so, there is throughout almost the whole of the Royal Naval Air Service a feeling of dissatisfaction with regard to the existing organisation of that service. I will try not to mention any names, but I shall be delighted—it is only fair that I should—to give my right hon. Friend any names for which he likes to ask me at the conclusion of the Debate. Obviously it would be improper and undesirable to mention them publicly in the House. There is one thing I would like to mention, and that is with regard to a very eminent airman, who left the Royal Flying Corps, who has been taken on by the Royal Naval Air Service and given a very responsible position in the Dardanelles, above two men whose names are absolutely household words in this country with regard to flying. I have spoken to members of that service back from the Dardanelles, who, while they assure me that these naval airmen who have made the Naval Air Service, as they have done, have loyally supported the new chief, and have compelled their juniors to do so, state that there is a very serious feeling because these men who have built up the Naval Air Service—whose names, if I only mentioned them, would be known to every individual in this House and out of it in regard to the success of the Royal Naval Air Service—have been superseded by, I admit, a first-rate man brought in from the Royal Flying Corps. I admit that he Is a first-rate man, but he has been put above the heads of these men who went out to the Dardanelles hoping, and quite rightly hoping, that they would have the development of naval flying in that part of the field of operations.

4.0 P.M.

I am afraid that I must mention one name. There is a very grave feeling with regard to the action which my right hon. Friend has taken in regard to the head of the Royal Naval Air Service. There is no man who has done more to build up the Naval Air Service—I see in the House one who knows more about it than I can possibly do, and I am sure he would bear his testimony if he were to speak—than Commodore Sueter. He built it up at the beginning, developed it, enlarged it, and had under his control the whole of this question of aeroplanes, airships, balloons, flying-ships, and every single development of the Royal Naval Air Service. The right hon. Gentleman brought in to supersede him an admiral of high position in the Royal Navy, but, if he will forgive me for saying so, an admiral who knows nothing whatever about the Air Service. There are anecdotes going round to illustrate his ignorance of the Royal Naval Air Service when he began. My right hon. Friend told us, in answer to a question only a few days ago, that it was most undesirable to reorganise the Royal Naval Air Service during a great war Could there be any greater reorganisation than to bring in a new and an untried man, a man who knew nothing of the service, and put him over the heads of everybody who had to teach him his business? He has had to learn his business. If my information be correct, he does not absolutely know it yet; it is impossible that he should. He has only been there some two months, and it is impossible for any man to learn the whole of the ramifications of the Air Service, and to take control in the way the late commodore could, and did do, in that short period of apprenticeship. In this Air Service everything is passed through the Sea Lords. I again suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that something might be done if he himself would take independent control of the Air Service, rather than make everything go through the First, Second, Third or Fourth Sea Lord. The Sea Lords, as we all know, have done magnificently in regard to naval matters. But they are naval men. They are ship- men, not airmen; and there is a decided feeling in the Air Service that these Naval Lords have not that interest in this matter—that it is impossible that they should have—which the air head, whether it be the right hon. Gentleman himself or somebody under him would have. The service should have an air head with whom they could come directly in contact, instead of through the Sea Lords.

I may tell the right hon. Gentleman—and he will correct me if I am wrong—that some two months ago an order was passed in for the building of a considerable number of large aeroplanes, such as many of us have been asking for for many months past. I am told that that order, if it has gone out yet, only went out last week. I am told that it took two months to get reports from various quarters—first from the various Sea Lords and then from the Treasury itself. The very essence of building up an air service right through the autumn or winter is that we should have it there when the springtime comes. These two months, if my facts be correct, may possibly prove of vital importance in the spring when the Germans bring out their new Zeppelins and aeroplanes, and we have to depend upon the old and remodelled machines which we have now, and which will be repaired during the winter, instead of being able to go out early next spring with large new machines. One of the reasons why we have seen so little of late of activity in the Naval Air Service is because of the constant changes in personnel. Again, I suggest that there has been reorganisation, but reorganisation of the most unfortunate character in the Department which corresponds with the director of operations in the Army. The right hon. Gentleman will know, of course, which Department I mean. Since the War began there have been no less than three changes. Only this week a new man—I am told by an excellent naval officer—and an untried man, has been brought into that Department and placed in the position of director of operations. This is the very man who has to control the flying squadron, who has to decide when and what raids are to be made; who says: "Attack," "go here," and "go there." The very essence of successful Flying Corps operations is that there should be a man in the position of director of operations who thoroughly knows of what the air staff is capable, who knows what the machines can do, and who has the confidence of the flying men under him.

Surely that is a very serious position. I shall be delighted to give the right hon. Gentleman names in a matter which is causing much heartburning in the service. For instance, a certain officer was in command of a squadron so long ago as last July. He was reported by the commodore and approved by the Naval Lords to be moved to a different place. I am told that that gentleman has an uncle in a high position at the War Office. That uncle went to see one of the Sea Lords and that order of the commodore, approved by the Sea Lords, was revoked, so that that officer might remain in his position. The commodore actually went so far as to put in a report to the Board of Admiralty objecting, and asking the Board whether they were prepared to support this action. I believe I am describing this matter correctly. I have been very careful in endeavouring to get at the facts, and if what I am saying is wrong I am responsible for so having put it before the House. If, however, there is any truth in that case at all it is wrong in time of war that anything like favouritism or influence should be used in our Air Service against the opinions and decisions of the responsible heads of the Service. Take our principal flying squadron, the squadron at Dunkirk, whence the raids usually come. We know they have machines and men. What has been done by our Naval Air Service during the last few months in Dunkirk? That force controls the coast. They have gone up to Ostend. They have flown backwards and forwards reconnoitring, but there has been no raid at all. The men are anxious to carry out air raids. They are anxious to fly over the German lines into Belgium, and even into Germany itself, but there have been during the last few months no raids at all carried out from Dunkirk. Anyone who reads the public Press will see that all the raids which have taken place during the last few months have been carried out, and very magnificently, by our Allies, the French. That is the position which I regret I have to put before the right hon. Gentleman. I informed him that I proposed to mention something of this position in the Air Service. That is the service to which we have to look for the defence of London.

The defence of London against Zeppelins is of three kinds. It can be done either by counter-Zeppelins, by aeroplanes, or by guns. I want the House to realise the relation of the Zeppelins to these defensive forces in London. The Zeppelin incursions into London have merely a moral effect. There is no military effect of a Zeppelin raid on London—at all events very little, except, perhaps, in frightening the population. But there is a vast military effect in Zeppelins in the way they are able to patrol the North Sea, and, I am told, watch our cruisers, our destroyers, and our Fleet from a vast height, and by the Marconi system of telegraphy send back full information to Germany. It has been well said that a fleet going out accompanied by Zeppelins against a fleet without Zeppelins is like a fleet without telescopes against a fleet that has none. I hate to say: "I told you so," and I am trying not to do so; but everyone knows of the efforts some of us a few years ago made in order that we should have Zeppelins constructed. I cannot help believing that the Admiralty and the advisers of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor knew that it was desirable to build Zeppelins. I propose to read to the House a letter which I received just three years ago almost to the day. It was on 19th November, 1912. This letter was dropped by air-post in my garden in the country. It was sent by two gentlemen who were then amongst the most prominent officers in the Air Service, and who are to-day amongst the most prominent officers. It reads:— have been given one big airship which could have patrolled the Eastern shores of this country, and might perhaps at least have tackled one of the hostile airships, and might indeed have carried the War into the enemy's camp much more boldly than the aeroplanes.

Anxious questions are debated among the members of the Flying Corps—amongst others whether aeroplanes can or can not tackle Zeppelins. I am entitled to say this, that the Admiralty believed—I do not know whether they do so now—in tackling the Zeppelins by aeroplanes, otherwise the ex-First Lord of the Admiralty, now the Chancellor of the Duchy, would never have made that well-known remark of his about the "swarms of hornets" going up to attack Zeppelins when they came. Therefore I am entitled to say that the policy of the Admiralty was that the Zeppelins should be attacked by naval aeroplanes. Has that policy been carried out? If not, why not? The aeroplanes are there—at least, some were there. If that policy has been changed, if it is not to be done, let the right hon. Gentleman say boldly that we have changed our policy and that we do not think it desirable to tackle Zeppelins by aeroplanes.

Every air station throughout England ought to be provided, not with one, but with an ample supply of aeroplanes in order to take the air the moment Zeppelins arrive, not merely in London, but on the shores of England. If I may again mention a personal point—I do not know whether I ought to have done it—but a week or two ago I went down to one of the naval air stations at night to see what was the protection of London against Zeppelins. I saw several machines; some were very good ones, some were in different stages of repair. I inquired what machines were going up in the event of a Zeppelin raid. This was shortly after the last raid. I saw a machine primed to the hilt with petrol, oil, the necessary stores, and bombs. I asked, "Who is going to fly this machine?" The reply was, "If there is a Zeppelin raid the Admiralty will send a pilot down to fly it: there is no one here to fly it." "How about the twenty or thirty other machines?" I asked. "This machine will go up, and this machine only," was the reply. It would not be parliamentary, Mr. Speaker, if I repeated in this House what I said then. Let us know there are no aeroplanes; but do not make the people of London imagine that they are going to be saved by, so to speak, the late First Lord's swarm of hornets. If they are not there, let us know it, and let us know what are the other means taken to protect us from Zeppelins.

An HON. MEMBER: And let the Germans know!

Who is responsible? I think we are entitled to get out of this Debate who is responsible for sending up the aeroplanes. I hate criticising. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Indeed I do not like it; but I was brought up as the political and almost personal disciple of my right hon. Friend opposite, and I would criticise him less than any man in this House; but if he will forgive me for saying so, I think his reply to me the other day, when I asked him who was responsible for sending up the aeroplanes, was perhaps hardly fair in time of war, when we, on this side of the House, claim to be as patriotic as Ministers.

And all that we get in answer to a query of that sort is the reply given to me by the right hon. Gentleman.

Might I ask what my answer was to which he objects?

( reading ):

"The military are responsible for military aeroplanes and the Admiralty for naval aeroplanes." [Laughter.]

That is very vague. I do not know whether the Admiralty was responsible during the last raid, but I am told there was no co-ordination between the Admiralty, the War Office, and Sir Percy Scott's department. The right hon. Gentleman in September said:—

"I have a great belief in the organising capacity, the energy and resources, and the openness to new ideas which have always characterised the distinguished admiral who now has the defence of London immediately under his control."

Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman says now that he meant the gunnery—

There never was the least doubt as to what Sir Percy Scott has to do. I dare say I did not say it in that particular instance, but it was always understood.

Of course, if my right hon. Friend meant gunnery control, I have nothing more to say. Is the gunnery control separated from the aeroplane control? Is the aeroplane control of the Army separated from the aeroplane control of the Navy? Is there one or are there three authorities to be called into action when the next raid occurs? Because, if so, that is not what the people think or what they want. They want to recognise there is one man who will be able, not when the Zeppelins appear here, but when sighted over the North Sea, to give orders for aeroplanes to go up. On the last occasion a Zeppelin went over two of our naval stations on the East Coast and nobody went up, although they passed over there in daylight. If aeroplanes are to go up at all, surety that is the time, before the Zeppelins get near London, before they get into the darkness, when going over the North Sea, that they should go up and emulate the example of Lieutenant Warneford. Beyond that, there is the gun defence of London. After thirteen months the Government appointed the gallant Admiral to take charge of the gunnery defence of London. Some of us who have seen some of the guns which deluded Londoners during the previous twelve months realise that there was not much wonder they did not hit the Zeppelins travelling 12,000 ft. or 14,000 ft. high on the occasion of the last raid. Around Paris they have the celebrated 75 mm. guns, mounted so as to fire straight up to a height of over 19,000 ft. They have one of these guns every 3,000 yards, and accompanying these guns is a very large and powerful searchlight—I believe 36 in. or 39 in. in diameter. That is why Paris is free of the Zeppelins, for, of course, the Zeppelins know perfectly well if they go near there they will get within the range of these guns and into the focus of these lights and be quickly put an end to. I think the capital of this Empire is entitled to the same protection; as is given to the capital of our Allies.

But the defence of London does not begin here. It begins on the East Coast. If you really want to defend London, do not let the Zeppelins get near. If anybody wants to know what the defences are on the East Coast, let him go and see the defence guns there. If we only put on, motor lorries the same guns as our French friends use and placed them every ten miles round the coast so as to be able to move up and down, you would catch the Zeppelins before it was dark, and I believe that, with efficient guns and efficient gunners, you would very soon bring some of the Zeppelins down. You cannot expect immature gunners to deal with Zeppelins at high-angle fire. I do not know whether you have sent any of our men over to Flanders to learn, or whether you have brought home from Flanders any of our men who have been shooting at much smaller targets, the aeroplanes, and brought them down time after time. Does the House realise the difference between hitting an aeroplane and hitting a Zeppelin? A Zeppelin could fill St. James' Street from top to bottom, whereas an aeroplane is only from 20 ft. to 30 ft. across, and yet our gunners bring them down—it has been mentioned in the Field-Marshal's despatches—from a height of 8,000 ft. or 9,000 ft. Put some of those men to deal with the Zeppelin defence of London, and I think we shall not have any more of these raids.

I go one step further, and say that the defence of London is not even on the East Coast. The best defence of London and the best defence of our country is an offensive against the Zeppelins and German aeroplanes in their own country. The way to root out the Zeppelins is to root out their sheds. Everyone knows we did root them out of Belgium, their sheds being bombed by our magnificent Air Service. Two are back again. Why are our men not allowed to go again in a series of expeditions and bomb those sheds and clear them out? If you only had what we have been pleading for for so long—an adequate fleet of large and powerful aeroplanes, 2,000 if you like, divided between the Navy and the Royal Flying Corps, which would cost the price of a battleship and a-half, and which would be able to drop big bombs—you would very quickly stop the German Zeppelin menace; you would very quickly make a change in the conduct of the War. At present our Naval Air Service is used for defence. I want to see it used for attack. I am rather a fighting man: I believe in attack. I believe you could root the Zeppelins out of Belgium if you had higher-power aeroplanes, and root them out from those sheds along the Rhine, and, I think, possibly root them even out of their sheds in Schleswig-Holstein. The exact number of German aeroplane sheds is known to the Admiralty. There may be some few, of course, which have been built during recent months, just as we know, of course, that Germany is building super-Zeppelins ready for next season. Let those Zeppelin sheds be destroyed, and the menace will be over. I have pleaded before for a stronger offensive in our Air Service. I believe it is quite possible. When one dreams of this hideous war, and the best way to put an end to it, one thinks of an aerial fleet the equal and the compeer of our great naval Fleet in the North Sea, equal in power and numbers. It needs a man of determination and of imagination to take charge of it, to institute it, to build it, and, quite humbly, I believe we have that man in the right hon. Gentleman if he would do it, if he would brush aside all preconceived ideas and make up his mind that next spring we should have a service worthy of England which would be able to destroy the German lines of communication, bomb her Zeppelin sheds—I say nothing of reprisals because I want to carry the entire House with me to-day—and you would be able to go as far as the Rhine, and even to that place which is the head and centre of the enemy, Krupp's works at Essen, and I believe with an adequate Air Service you could very largely bring this War to a speedy and victorious conclusion.

The speech of the hon. Gentleman indicates what I consider grave incompetence in a certain Department of the general direction of this War. I endorse all that he says, and in one or two particulars I will help to dot the is. But I wish to take this occasion also to raise even graver questions, but still unfortunately on the same note of incompetence. I will take this as my general theme, that we desire to win this War, that we are not winning it, and that the main fault is in the incompetence of those who are giving the direction in the highest places of command. These are occasions when the very life of a nation is at stake, and where the reputation of a Field-Marshal or the susceptibilities of a lord must give way before the feelings we must have in contemplating the death of one valiant soldier; and when I think of my own countrymen who have gained imperishable renown in the Dardanelles, sacrificed by the stupidity of those who led them, my feelings of regret at their death are intensified by those of sorrow in reflecting that those lives have been sacrificed in vain.

When I spoke on the last occasion here I attacked the reputation of Lord Kitchener, and there was a certain feeling of horror evoked even in the House itself. All that I said on that occasion has unfortunately been verified, and the speech which was then considered pessimistic is seen to have been painted in colours not dark enough. Lord Kitchener is a man who has gained his reputation in this country by demanding results. He gained the reputation, which is in great measure a newspaper reputation, by having attributed to him virtues which, perhaps, he does not possess, and faults which are not part of his nature. One of the qualities attributed to him was that brutal manner of speaking to subordinates and demanding results. We have the right to apply the same tests to Lord Kitchener himself and demand his results. From the very moment that he took charge of this War, exercising practically the powers of dictator in this country, he showed incapacity. He showed incapacity in not moving to the defence of Liège, and, later, in not defending Antwerp. When the history of this War is written and matters are shown in their true perspective, he will be found to have committed blunders which are not the ordinary blunders of an ordinary man, but which will stand out like rocks of Gibraltar in a world of blunderdom, such as the sacrifice of Antwerp, that pistol, as Napoleon called it, pointed at the heart of England, and which, if properly defended, would have been a pistol pointed at the heart of Germany. The greatest blunder of all, however, is that of munitions. It took months for him to discover the elementary fact that the success of this War depended on an abundance of munitions. He did not discover this by his own genius. When Sir John French kept sending message after message he, so far as we can judge, put those messages in his pocket, and failed to inform the Prime Minister himself. I say this, and I believe it, for what else could possibly excuse that famous speech of the Prime Minister when he satisfied the country and Parliament at the moment, lulling public opinion in a mood of optimism, and delayed operations for months and imperiled our future success? And then, after all these months of warning, after seeing staring him in the face the results of his strategy, he repeats for Serbia the same blunders which have ruined our cause in Belgium. Blunders of that kind are not those of a fighting man. Those are excusable, such as the initial blunder of the expedition to the Dardanelles. In the case of the Dardanelles the idea was good, but the exe- cution was bad. That was the blunder of a man who meant to do something, and who meant to fight. His mistakes were in the spirit of a man who cannot fight. We have occasion to honour the memory of Nelson; but what would have been thought of Nelson if, when he heard of the French Fleet being sighted at Trafalgar, he had given that same spirit to his officers, and had said, "We will make a shy at them, and if we do not succeed we can always cover ourselves behind Gibraltar"? That is the strategy of a man foredoomed to failure. There has not been a proper spirit of command in the conduct of the campaign on the Western front. What was the attitude of a man like Nelson? It was that of a man who had already won in his own mind. He was bound to win, he had the genius to fight. He was a man who bent every exertion of his mind, and thrilled every fibre of his soul to infuse that spirit into his subordinates. He could make one man worth ten; he thought of nothing but beating, annihilating the enemy, if possible, and wiping them off the seas.

I wish to refer to our strategy on the Western front in one particular. It is impossible for us to be ultimately successful in this campaign unless we drive the Germans on to the other side of the shine. I would like to know: Has Lord Kitchener made provision for crossing the Rhine? Has he got the pontoons ready, and the cables? Has he the buoys and anchors ready? Has he the machine guns already set out in detail, and not to be taken at the last moment from other places? Has he his plans prepared, his searchlights ready, and all the means for offensive and defensive action ready? No. He has no plans at all; and, if that is so, the whole campaign on the Western front will be nugatory under the present command, and we are infallibly moving to what is known as a stalemate—an indecisive campaign and an unsatisfactory peace. It is just as well to know these things beforehand, because while I am uttering these truths there is time to retrieve these failures and put men into the chief positions who can fight and who can win.

I would pass from that aspect of affairs to that of the Dardanelles. I will say at the beginning that, although the erstwhile First Lord of the Admiralty has been severely criticised, and although his reputation has suffered, I am inclined to think that his part in that affair is the most easily defended. He gave us the original idea, but that is the only thing that was good in the whole of this miserable affair; the failure arose in the carrying out of that idea. The Turks declared war against us in the month of November. That was not astonishing, because they were in the hands of the Germans a long time before that event, and it was only a question of the date on which they would declare war. The Dardanelles Expedition was possible, and if at that very moment a British Fleet had sailed up the Dardanelles and presented itself before Constantinople it would have achieved success; if it had done so before that time, the Turks would never have declared war. In war such psychological factors are most important, as everyone who has gained victories will tell you, and that is one feature of war which seems to be consistently ignored by Lord Kitchener. Actions which are good at one moment are worse than useless at the next; and a vigorous offensive against Turkey, which would have been entirely successful in the month of November, was delayed after months and months of warning. It was delayed until after the attack of the Turks on 2nd February. It was delayed again, and towards the end of February it was decided to make some kind of demonstration. Further delay took place until there was a tentative attack in March, and it was not until August that a movement was instituted which, had it been carried at the right time, would have been entirely successful and would have achieved all those results alluded to by the Prime Minister. But all that has been lost, and lost by incompetence, and it is for the Government to bear the responsibility.

I may be asked on what ground I say that. I reply by the brutal criterion of judging by results. Take the case of Serbia. After the Germans' successful campaign in the East—for whatever we may think of them, we would do well for our own sake to recognise what a formidable enemy they are—after their great success against the Russians, there were three plans of campaign available for them. One, which would have been the boldest and the greatest, was to close the campaign in the East and return to the West with a fresh force of 500,000 or 1,000,000 men, and strike at some weak point in the Western line and force the line through to Paris or to Calais; the second was to dispose of Italy as they are now disposing of Serbia; and the third and most dangerous, and one which should have stared our military advisers in the face before its inception, was the campaign which has now been adopted in Serbia. Had we a plan, or foresight, or any kind of prevision, or did we take one single step in the direction of counteracting that attack? With the terrible example of Belgium before our eyes, we see Serbia, the most gallant little nation of Europe, sacrificed as Belgium was. But that is not the gravest fault of all; that resides in the moral aspect of the matter. It is so grave, in fact, that the one and only excuse you can put forward for your want of action, to hide yourselves on the moral grounds, is to plead your incapacity.

What has the conquest of Serbia, now almost completed, done for the Germans? For them it has opened the way to Constantinople and it has made our position in the Dardanelles untenable. It has completely altered the diplomatic aspect of the Balkans, and perhaps one of the most terrible aspects in the adhesion of the Bulgarians to the Germans is not in the material support which Bulgaria is giving to the Central Empires, but that, looking only to their own interests, the Bulgarians have been forced by the march of events to side with Germany. The campaign of the Germans in the Balkans has been a triumph so far to them and a disaster to the Allies, and the gravest of all our failures is one that has resulted from the failure of the fighting genius on our side. This campaign has been like the campaign of Grouchy at Waterloo, who looked more to the letter and not to the spirit. Grouchy was attacked by his subordinate officers, who cried out to him, "This is no ordinary battle; do you not hear the sound of the guns; do you not hear the earth trembling under our feet? This is a battle in which the fortunes of Europe are being risked, and you remain deaf to all this!" In the Serbian campaign the same argument applies to our military leaders. We may say to them, "Did you not hear the sound of the guns; and did you not feel the soil of Europe trembling under your feet? This is a battle in which the fate of Europe is being decided!" In spite of this, you remain deaf to that appeal, and the one excuse is your own incapacity. I will now touch upon one or two aspects of the diplomatic side. Here again we have the same excuses put forward. It was very unfortunate that the Bulgarians, under the influence of Germany, decided that it was easier and better for them to go against their former friends, but now their bitter enemies. That argument is fallacious. The Bulgarians are now siding with the Turks, who are their hereditary enemies, and under whose domination they were crushed for centuries, and who were natural objects of hatred in the Bulgarian mind. We have been too much accustomed here in the face of realities to bemuse ourselves with specious arguments. The Bulgarians sided with Germany because they thought they were siding with the winning side. There was no drifting; this was not left to chance. For months before the mind of Bulgaria had been prepared by active German agents. Bulgaria was flooded with German agents, who occupied all they could, who took all the rooms at the chief hotels, who spent money lavishly. Bulgaria was flooded with German officers; there was unceasing activity on the part of their diplomatic agents. What did we do to counteract operations of that kind? Nothing. I know we have Ministers, but the whole diplomatic service suffers from being chosen from too narrow an area, and high positions and titles are considered instead of ability. It is the last resource of conservatism. I do not mean in a political sense, but in a social way. It is the preserve still most immune to the liberal idea of Napoleon, when he said, "La carriéreouverte aux talents." When I brought this question forward the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs replied that our foreign representatives abroad were not there to collect news. That was a sneering way of paraphrasing my words relative to informing the Government. The Under-Secretary further stated that they were there to represent the interests of the country at foreign Courts, and that their reputation abroad was that of diabolical cleverness. Judge them by results.

What is the case of Roumania, which is still hesitating and which it might be possible to save? I recently had a conversation with a famous war correspondent who had come from Bucharest who told me the story I have heard so often, respecting the feverish activity of the Germans in flooding the country with agents; it being impossible for a Britisher to obtain a room in an hotel at any price, no matter how much money be offered; in buying of Roumanian newspapers in various ways, and in subsidising every man to whom he could influence public opinion. And on the Allied side, the one man to whom he could give praise was the representative of Russia. When I asked about the representative of this country he shrugged his shoulders, which was the mildest form in which he cared to indicate his opinion.

And the attitude of Greece! Is it by some law of nature that Greece has moved in a wrong orbit? No. Greece was bound to Serbia by a formal contract, and to this country by many ties, and had our attitude both in war and peace been that of men who commanded and who were determined to win, Greece would be now fighting side by side with us in the Balkans. There again, the defection of Greece can only be imputed to the one cause—that incompetence which I have come against wherever I have touched in any way on these great offices of State.

The Prime Minister came down to the House the other day and gave an elaborate exposition which satisfied the House, and unfortunately satisfied the country, and imbued them with optimism, giving an explanation of the course of affairs in Greece, and showing that no human provision could possibly have counted on that defection of Greece, and that we had every right to the last moment to place confidence on the co-operation of Greece. This was the information of our representatives of diabolical cleverness. I happened to be in Europe at the time, and at least three weeks before—if this argument be valid—the British Government had cognisance of the fact, I knew that Greece would not join the Allies. I was in Paris having no attachment to and no influence in the matter, but at the time I happened to know this. And why? Simply because I exercised this extraordinary feat of genius—I went to a source where I could be truly informed. I was truly informed and I could have informed the British Government three weeks before they knew that Greece would not join in on the side of the Allies. Ought we not to realise what this state of affairs means? Should not this House realise, and the whole country realise, that those who are conducting this campaign on behalf of the nation are conducting it with signal incompetence, and that unless there is a change this country is moving straight to disaster.

Take another instance, what is happening in the field itself. I know a young officer who showed me a photograph in which he appeared with twenty-five of his brother officers, he at that time being a second-lieutenant. He said, "Of that group of twenty-five officers I am the sole survivor, and I could show you another group of twenty-five officers who succeeded them, and of that group I am the sole survivor." That young man again and again in the rank of second-lieutenant has commanded his battalion, and commanded it in such a way as to win the highest praise of his superior officers, and in the face of the enemy withstanding the shock of tenfold forces, and never quailing. That man was left in the rank of second-lieutenant, and when his name was sent to the War Office for promotion, with the recommendation of his superior officer, the name was struck out in the War Office, because no precedent existed for such a promotion, his superior officers being Territorial officers who, having remained in England, and who, having incurred no danger, were still surviving and blocking his advance. Is that the way to win the War? I would enforce the moral. That young man who displayed lion-like courage, whom Napoleon Bonaparte would have made a colonel by this, or a brigadier-general, discouraged and disgusted, wrote in his last letter asking me if I could find him a position at home. How did men ever conduct war who won battles? Take the case of Napoleon himself. He was not a phenomenon. He had his chance, which many of our brilliant young officers never have under this abominable system. He took his chance and found due scope for his genius. When he found a brilliant officer he promoted him in the field. He kept his eye on him, and put him forward and forward, and, if necessary, displaced others in the ranks. And what men did he bring forward? Men like Janot, Bornadoffe, Lannes, Nuy, and Murat; and I would any this: that I have belief enough in the British nation to think that we have in the British Army to-day young and brilliant men full of energy, full of vigour, full of the power to lead men, and men who could compete with the most illustrious and brilliant of the soldiers of Napoleon himself. I say these men should be brought to the front and, if necessary, by sacrificing those who are blocking their advance.

All party ties have disappeared, and we are speaking in a family circle, and we are entitled to candour, and I would say: Begin with Sir John French himself. It is no dishonour to him, but he has been in command fifteen months, and he has not progressed. I say begin with him, but do not stop with him. I say, sweep away 70 per cent. of the superior officers in the field and let men come forward who Know how to fight and how to win. Take the last great advance, which was hailed by the newspapers as a real victory. Is the House aware that on that occasion both the English and French forces broke through the German lines and that in the superior command the grit and moral courage was wanting to take full advantage of that magnificent victory? Remember that that condition of affairs was foredoomed. Victory is not altogether a matter of impromptu. Victory follows inevitably if all proper steps are being taken to secure that victory, and if every exertion, and every detail of the plan has been moved forward towards one determined object. But victory will never be won by men who say, "We will make an effort here, and if we are not successful we will go back to our trenches; but, at any rate, we must cover up our responsibility, and must put forward an action that can be defended in Parliament." Victory can only be gained by a man who throws aside all considerations of that kind, who nails his flag to the mast-head, who has already won the victory in his own soul, and who is not merely determined to fight the Germans, but to pierce their line. Such a man cries: "They are on our soil, we are superior to them, man for man; we are at least equal to them in munitions, and we mean to smash and shatter them and drive them back, we mean to pursue them, our swords at their backs, never halting until we have thrown them across the Rhine."

There is no lack of genius in this country, the country of Marlborough, of Nelson, of Jim Belcher, for I do not hesitate to name here a great prize-fighter; this is also a soldiers' fight. Do you mean to say that in this nation, famous in history, that we are to be compelled at this hour of the day, and in face of this terrible crisis, the greatest we have ever faced in history, to say now, "Genius has gone, ability has gone; we have chosen men in time of peace; we have put all our faith in their reputations, and if they fail we have no other resort." Idols would be excellent if you could throw idols into the German trenches, but the Germans have idols of their own. High-sounding titles would be excellent, if the Germans respected them. If we could have progress by votes of confidence and mutual admiration, we should have swept Belgium long ago. But we are faced by realities. We cannot win by stars and garters, but by munitions, and men, and brains, and it is particularly brains that are lacking.

Let me touch on another detail, that of the Zeppelin raider, on which we have heard an eloquent speech. These Zeppelins are no phenomena. They have been with us for months and, speaking as an engineer, I say the problem of finding a range-finder is a comparatively simple one. None has been found, and the truth is that if one had been found it would have been tested by bringing down a German Zeppelin. It has not been found. No man, be he Sir Percy Scott or no matter who or how high his reputation has been beforehand, can avoid facing this issue: if he has been in that office for some weeks and has failed to find a range-finder, I say that man, again, is incompetent, and that man should go. Let that be the test. Test by results. Let us come down until we can find a man who can give us results, even if we have to cause a flutter in the dovecots, and a change in the reputations that now flaunt themselves before the world.

5.0 P.M.

We had a lead in aeroplanes, and France had a lead in aeroplanes, and for a long time the Germans were behind in aeroplanes. I would still say that in the personnel we are, and France are, superior to the Germans, but I very much doubt whether we are superior in aeroplanes. The Germans were for a long time behind, behind France notably, in the construction of aeroplanes, but they brought down a Sikorsky, and what did they do? They did not stare at it as a phenomenon and feel their minds waterlogged, and say it was an extraordinary thing, and no prevision could have foreseen it. They photographed every part, and sent copies to every engineering shop in the empire. They then proceeded to build new aeroplanes on that model at Hamburg and Friedrichshafen, but instructed their engineers not merely to copy it, but to improve upon it, and they are now building improved aeroplanes of their own. It is a fortunate thing for this country that the Germans have been too much hypnotised by the Zeppelin idea, because had they devoted their intellectual and organising powers, wealth and skilled work to the construction of aeroplanes, their aeroplanes would have been a much more formidable menace to London than the Zeppelins have been. Indeed, the aeroplane may yet play a decisive part in bringing this war to a finish. We have time still to take the lead in this matter. We ought not to allow ourselves to be content with futile arguments of incompetent men. We ought to set-to to build an aeroplane fleet which will have such a superiority that no hostile German craft dare show its nose above the horizon. So we may gain the supremacy of the air as we once held the supremacy of the sea. Having got such a fleet, we should by continual raids destroy their aeroplane sheds, their submarine bases, and their great factories. We should use the aeroplane fleet not as an adjunct to the Army or Navy, but as a separate arm, and thus we may bring into this War something which will have a decisive influence in bringing it to a termination.

I have spoken of these small details, just throwing a beam of light here and there, and I will say that wherever, in pursuing these considerations, I have come face to face with the minds of these great Departments, I have been astounded by the spirit of incompetence. This is a grave fact; it is no ordinary fact. We ought no longer to comfort ourselves with exploded ideas of muddling through. This War is, perhaps the final great explosion of the Dark Ages. After this War a new era will arise for the whole human race. This is a war in which the fate of nations is being tested. It is something which has flung to the surface factors which will weigh deep in the mind of the future historian, whose studies will deal with the decline and fall of Empires.

What, in the face of this, is the plan of the Government? They have no plan, and in the face of realities they give us bemusing speeches, or they menace us and browbeat us when we attempt to criticise them. They hurl offensive words at our heads, such words as "copper-head." That term "copper-head" was used in the American War towards those in the North who sympathised with the South. I would drive home a moral on that phrase. The term "copper-head" was levelled at the enemies of Lincoln, who at the beginning of the war against the South had his Kitchener—General McLellan, a great organiser, a man who went on organising months after the war had been in progress, and, when the brilliant generals of the South were moving from victory to victory General McLellan was making no sort of forward progress. When Lincoln asked him what he was doing his reply always was that he was organising. Lincoln was not a soldier, he was a man whose forte was common sense. He realised that what was wanted was to win the war, so he displaced McLellan and put in Grant, and from that day the cause of the North never went back. Here, at home, while gallant little Serbia is quivering in the death grip of the German eagle, we have still millions of men drilling and organising, but not available.

What is our final plan? No real plan exists. No plan that means boldly marking out a definite line of strategy and inevitably following it up, link by link, as an engineer pursues his work until he reaches its final conclusion. There is only a vague drifting in the hope that something will turn up, a clinging to the phrase which in France is called "usure" and in this country "attrition"—the actual loss of German fighting men. I will give, in a few words, the situation at the present moment. Germany occupies a great part of France, and the part which she occupies is far more extensive with regard to power than the extent of territory would seem to indicate. Germany now occupies 68 per cent. of the coalfields of France. She commands 34 per cent. of the horsepower of France. She commands, too, 77 per cent. of the steel works of France; and I have seen it stated recently that she also has command of two-thirds of the total ore of Europe. That is the situation on the West after fifteen months' struggle. The situation of the East is that Germany occupies Poland. She has driven Russia back, and even although, as we hope, Russia may be in a position to pursue a vigorous offensive, it will take months upon months before her recuperative power enables her to carry that offensive definitely into German territory, or even into the territory which Germany has wrested from her. Now the Germans have opened up a new way to Constantinople. And we are told that time is with the Allies! Another hope entertained was that Germany would be starved of food. I believe the stories are true that there is a shortage of food. The measures which the Germans took months ago in regard to this matter were not the measures of a country in despair. They were the measures of a country that had far-seeing statesmen, who said that at the risk of no matter how much suffering or displacement of the ordinary conditions of social life, they must put this pressure on the country, as it was necessary they should win the War.

Then I come to the question of money. One extraordinary outcome of, the blockade has been that it has rather advantaged Germany's position. One of the most brilliant men in France, a member of the present Government, told me that experience had shown that the object of reducing Germany would have been, better attained if the Allies had never begun the blockade at all, because if there had been no blockade Germany would have had recourse to foreign countries, whereas she was forced to fall back on her own internal economy and to organise her national conditions. The result is that it is Germany that is carrying on the War more cheaply than any other country in Europe.

It is impossible for us to reckon upon a shortage of munitions. I have conversed on this matter with some of the most expert men in France, and I have been told in regard to the cotton question, by a man very distinguished in certain fields of chemistry as applied to Artillery, that there would be no shortage of ammunition on the part of Germany if we deprived her altogether of cotton. The great importance of the cotton question was not with respect to munitions, but was on the economic side, because if we deprived her of her cotton we deprived her of her manufactures of cotton stuffs which used to bring in such a large profit.

Thus we are reduced to the question of attrition, and I put it to sensible men in the House of Commons that the War will never be brought to an entirely mathematical conclusion. Let them, as men of the world, realise the position. You have a nation, for Germany and Austria are practically one, which had something like 13,000,000 soldiers at the beginning of the War. They have now brought in Bulgaria and Turkey, with practically unlimited resources. Can they be brought to their knees, not by attack, but by a war of defence, dependent ultimately on attrition. The idea is absurd, and it seems to me almost a dishonest argument. If this War is to be won it is to be won in the field; it is to be won by attack in the field; it is to be won by driving the Germans out of France, by driving them out of Belguim, and by driving them across the Rhine. We are not doing that, yet I believe that within the resources of this country, which has always produced the necessary genius at the critical moment, we have the men to do it. We must find those men, and for the safety of the country we must not allow ourselves to be led aside by bemusing speeches or optimistic ideas, or have our minds clouded by high reputations, or by talk of idols, and still more silly talk of what may or may not toe criticised lest some portentous secret should be given to the Germans. We must face realities. Eventually we must win.

What I have said to-day I would never have uttered if I had considered it a depressing speech. I have not tried to paint the colours darkly. I have tried to paint them as they are. I have looked to the question not in a spirit of optimism or pessimism; I have tried to look at it from a scientific point of view, as a problem to be faced and a problem to be solved. It is a speech which points the way by which victory may be attained. We are superior to the Germans in men. The bravery of our soldiers has been equal to that in the best days of Nelson or of Wellington. It would be almost invidious to particularise one part of the nation as against another. Englishmen, Scotsmen, Welshmen, and Irishmen have covered themselves with glory in the field. So have the men of the Dominions. Their fame has rung through all Europe. The men are there. The munitions are there. It is the leadership and direction which is lacking. We must have that fact infused into our minds. We must arouse the spirit of determination, we must keep up the pressure till we gain efficiency, even if it means sweeping away great reputations of the past. The great thing is to find the leaders, for they are already in our midst—men who have resolved to win, who can point the way to victory.

I rise with some diffidence to reply to the two speeches which have just been made. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down appears to have the strongest objection to any speech delivered from these Benches from which he happens to differ. He thinks a great deal of harm apparently has been done by what I may venture to call the very admirable speeches which the Prime Minister has delivered on the War from time to time. I do not know what he expects from us on these Benches. If we sit silent he joins in attacking us, while if a Minister makes a speech it is a bemusing speech. I do not know in what way it is possible to satisfy him. I do not intend to follow his criticism on the conduct of the War. All criticism on the conduct of the War must, until the War be over, and I venture to say long after the War is over, be a matter which it is almost impossible to deal with, not because the impartial spirit may be absent, but because the facts are not and cannot be known. The hon. Gentleman has commented on military and naval failures. He has commented, too, on our administrative and diplomatic failures, and he has indicated that had he the selection of men who form the Cabinet, or who now hold office in the various Chancelleries of Europe, things would have gone very differently from what they have done. That may be so, and as I am one of the incriminated persons, I certainly have no wish, and it would be the last thing that would occur to me, to suggest to the House that a better occupant of the place I fill at the moment could not be found.

Nor do I doubt that there is latent talent in this country which does not find at present its best field of operation. Neither do I say that every man who occupies in this country any high command at home or abroad is necessarily the very best man which omniscience could discover for the post. I do not think that anything is to be gained by the sort of speech delivered by the hon. Gentleman in which he indicated that by some unfortunate national incapacity the twenty-two most incompetent persons in the country are always selected to conduct our affairs, or that to take distinguished generals who have shown capacity not merely in time of peace but in time of war, and to put them at the head of our military forces, was a very foolish step. Even in his criticisms of the Departments of State the hon. Gentleman surely was guilty of some inconsistency. He said that our diplomacy had completely failed, and that, as compared with German diplomacy, it was almost negligible. He went on to explain that his reason for saying that was that we were very ill-served at the various neutral Courts of Europe, and that our Diplomatic Service was filled with gentlemen of title, who had nothing but their titles to recommend them to their office. I think if the hon. Gentleman looks at the names of the gentlemen he criticised he will find that he has not given a very accurate description of their social position.

That is relatively a small matter. What I beg the hon. Gentleman to remember is another part of his own speech. He explained that the reasons why the Bulgarians had gone against us and why—as he was good enough to prophesy—there was no hope of the Greeks coming with us, was that the Powers in the South-East of Europe were persuaded that Germany was going to win, and that they were persuaded that Germany was going to win because Germany had, in his opinion and in their opinion, obtained military successes both on the Western Front and in the Eastern theatre of operations which made their final success more than probable. Well, Sir, if that military estimate of the hon. Gentleman's be true, surely no diplomacy in the world, titled or untitled, could deal with a situation of that kind. He cannot abuse both the soldiers and the diplomats for the same mistake. He cannot, when he abuses the soldiers, explain that they have been very ill-used by the diplomats, and, when he abuses the diplomats, say that their task has been made almost impossible by the inefficiency of the soldiers. He should adopt one line or the other. I do not think that both of them can be consistently sustained. Although the hon. Gentleman gave us, from his own point of view, his interesting survey of the whole course of the War, I do not think he made any practical suggestion, so far as I remember, or any detailed criticism except that we should turn out every man who is now engaged in directing affairs and put in some other unspecified person. That is not helpful. I agree absolutely with him, if I may say so, that wherever merit is found merit should be promoted, and that we should draw from every available field the talents required to carry on the very difficult task. He and I entirely agree in that respect; but this broadcast criticism of the soldiers and the sailors, either at home or abroad, this wild, reckless attack upon the Diplomatic Service, if he would only believe me, does no good either to the cause of this country or to the cause of any Department of this country. That is not the way in which reforms are carried out. It is not helpful to those who are responsible for public affairs, and I do not think anything whatever is gained by it. If the hon. Gentleman's criticisms were accepted by the public, the result would be a most unfortunate diminution in their confidence in those who lead them, but nothing to help you to replace them. That kind of criticism cannot be useful, and it may be harmful.

If I may say so, I turn from those generalities of attack with some relief, though not with very much agreement, to the detailed criticisms which my hon. Friend who opened the Debate this afternoon made upon one particular branch of the activities of the Department for which I am responsible. I shall have something to say in reply to his criticism; but I freely and frankly admit that it was his desire to point out particular defects and to suggest particular remedies, and, whether he was right or wrong in his criticism, it was the kind of criticism which may be, and very often is, helpful to the Department criticised. It had not the wide generality of the speech which followed it, and I think it deserves and indeed is susceptible of a detailed answer which the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down can hardly be said to be. The first criticism of the hon. Gentleman, I think, was one which does not concern the Admiralty alone, but concerns both the Admiralty and the War Office. It related to the character of the aeroplanes which those two Departments are constructing. The same point was referred to by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. There is no doubt that, as this War has gone on, there have been changes and developments in the machines of all the countries concerned. Now one has got in advance of the other; now, again, the positions are reversed. I do not think it ought to be assumed, as both hon. Gentlemen appear to have assumed, that now the Germans have got a lead which it will be difficult or impossible for us to overcome.

I certainly did not say it was impossible; I hope we shall catch them up.

I understand that my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down both desire to see that British industry and inventiveness should enable us again to take the lead which we had for a short time but which, in their opinion, we have now lost. I can assure them, so far as the Admiralty is concerned, that there is an earnest desire to improve in every way the construction of aeroplanes. They are improving. They are improving in strength, speed, engine power, and all the qualities which he desires to see, and rightly desires to see, embodied in our Air Service. As regards the Army, although on that point I cannot speak with the same authority, I am confident that the Army are pursuing the same course in generous rivalry with the Navy. The two Departments interchange ideas, and I believe that as the War progresses it will be found that we have not fallen behind those against whom we are matched. It is very difficult, of course, to speak on this point with confidence, because until a machine is actually in use you cannot prophesy, whether the machine belongs to your enemy or yourself, what is going to happen. Germany may have some machine under construction of which we know nothing, which may produce results we do not anticipate, and we may be producing machines of which the Germans know little. All that must necessarily, in the nature of the case, be a matter of conjecture. I can do no more than assure the House that so far as the Admiralty is concerned, and I believe so far as the Army is concerned—my right hon. Friend will say something on this subject with reference to the Department he represents in this House—broadly speaking, it is fully recognised by both Departments that there is no more important and pressing necessity at this moment than to see that the machines used by the Air Service are kept at least on a level with those with whom they have to contend.

My hon. Friend went on to criticise certain dispositions of personnel for which the Navy were responsible. He complained that we had sent out an Army man—a man trained in the Army Air Service—to superintend and organise the Naval Air Service at Gallipoli, although there were men at Gallipoli, as he said, whose names were household words. It is perfectly true that there are members of the Naval Air Service at Gallipoli whose names are, and deserve to be, household words in this country. They are flyers of supreme skill and of admirable and distinguished courage. But the gentleman to whom he refers, who is now at the head of the service in Gallipoli, was sent out not as a flyer but as an organiser. He is an admirable flyer, but it was to organise a great Air Service at Gallipoli that he was sent out. I believe he is doing it very successfully, I believe the heroic airmen of whom my hon. Friend speaks are more distinguished for their great feats of courage and skill than they are for their organising powers. The two things are quite different; they require quite different faculties. I think my hon. Friend was not well advised in criticising the Government for not having considered the special aptitudes of the men at their command in determining what places they should fill in the service of their country. All I can say is that I have done my best in this matter. I do not believe that he will find that those who look at the Air Service at Gallipoli from the outside, who consider what it has done, what it is doing and what we still hope it will do, will consider that the choice made by the Admiralty, of which my hon. Friend complains, is otherwise than the choice which experience has justified.

My hon. Friend turned from Gallipoli to the organisation of the Air Service at home. He very rightly, I think, avoided unnecessarily dragging in names in the Debates in this House. The essence of his charge was that whereas there was a gentleman at the Admiralty who up to the recent reorganisation of the service had; conducted all the departments of the Air Service with conspicuous ability, the Admiralty had now altered the system, had brought the Air Service under the ordinary Admiralty practice, put it under the Sea Lord, and had, by that very action, necessarily altered the position of the distinguished gentleman to whom he referred. The facts are these. When the War broke out, the Air Service was relatively in its infancy. The very fact that the War broke out expanded it enormously in all directions. The distinguished officer to whom the hon. Member refers was, in the first instance, an expert in lighter than-air ships. Gradually, as the Air Service expanded, his duties expanded. To lighter-than-air were added heavier-than-air. To the design of aircraft was added the control and command of an ever-increasing and enormous staff, both designers and flyers, pilots and mechanics. He was made responsible for the most heterogeneous duties, until the weight of responsibility thrown upon him was far in excess of what any officer ought to be asked to bear. I came to the conclusion that the time had come when the Air Service ought to be brought under the ordinary Admiralty practice. In its early days my right hon. Friend (Mr. Churchill), to whom the country owes a great debt of gratitude in connection with the Air Service, kept it under his special personal charge and supervision, and I am not sure that my hon. Friend (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) did not suggest that his example should be followed by me, and that I should put all the Naval Lords on one side and assume the sole management and control of the Air Service. I think that would have been a great error. Much was gained by the personal control, the personal interest, the initiative and the farsightedness of my right hon. Friend in the early stages of this Air Service. But I might as well really keep the Submarine Service or the Destroyer Service under my own personal control. The Air Service has come to stay. It is, and it must henceforth always be, part of the Admiralty equipment, and I am confident that I was right in thinking that the time had come when the enormous expansion which it had gone through required it to be treated as other great Naval Services are treated, and put under the same machinery which experience has shown to be, after all, not a bad machinery for managing the affairs of the country.

My hon. Friend had some story which I did not quite follow. I think his natural desire not to be indiscreet in public prevented my understanding the details to which he referred, but apparently he had in his mind some case in which an improvement or an invention of, I think it was a new kind of aircraft or a better kind of aircraft, was delayed through going first to the Fourth Sea Lord, then to the Third Sea Lord, from the Third Sea Lord to the Second Sea Lord, and from the Second Sea Lord to the First Sea Lord, until months elapsed in this purely official routine. If I may say so without disrespect to my hon. Friend, he really has mistaken what the Admiralty machinery is. That is not the way the discussion of any invention would be dealt with. It is not the process through which it would go, and although I do not venture to give a direct contradiction to anything my hon. Friend said on that subject, because I really do not know to what he refers, I am sure the general account he gave of Admiralty procedure is not based upon any minute knowledge of the facts. There was another matter which he raised which equally left me at the end quite befogged as to what it was he had in his mind. It was some case of a job in which, as I understand, a highly-placed official at the War Office and one of the Sea Lords were concerned, and they appear to have kept a man in a place from which, according to my hon. Friend, he ought properly to have been excluded. If my hon. Friend will tell me in private to what he refers, I shall be very glad to consider the matter. The House, I hope, will understand that I have not the least conception to what he refers, and it is impossible for me to deal with it in this Debate.

I hope I have made it clear to the House that what happened was that the enormous expansion of the Air Service really absolutely outgrew its primitive organisation, and it had to be put under the accepted organisation of the Admiralty. I believe, contrary to what has reached my hon. Friend, that it has done nothing but good. The information I had before the change was made was that in many cases there was great want of discipline in the Air Service, which was only natural, because the distinguished officer who was at the head of it really had not disciplinary powers, and the various Commanders-in-Chief round the coast had no authority over the Air Service at all. It was quite inevitable in these circumstances that there should be some relaxation of the bonds of discipline. It could not be otherwise, and it was not otherwise. I believe it was really of the greatest possible advantage to the Air Service that it should be introduced into a system which, whatever else may be said of it, has undoubtedly produced admirable fruits in the way of wise discipline. Mo one has ever suggested that the Navy of this country is not admirably disciplined, and to bring the Air Service under that system seems to me to be conferring on it one of the greatest possible advantages.

I turn from the general organisation of the Air Service under the Board of Admiralty to the particular criticisms which my hon. Friend passed upon the Zeppelin attacks and the defence of London. There was one general observation which fell from my hon. Friend, and also, I think, from the hon. Member (Mr. Lynch). They dilate with great eloquence and force on the enormous advantage it would be to this country if we had an overwhelming force of aircraft of the latest types which we could hurl against the invader, or which would enable us to become invaders ourselves. The advantage would be enormous, I quite agree; just as the advantage would be enormous of having munitions which we do not possess. I do not speak for the Army, because the representative of the Army will speak for himself directly, but as far as the Navy is concerned, we are doing our very best to increase both the number of our flyers and the machines which they have to use. It is no use saying how much better off we should be if we had more of the thing which it is extremely desirable we should have. We are making them as fast as we can. That is a general observation which deals with some points raised by both the speakers who have preceded me. When we come to the case of Zeppelins my hon. Friend said, "Will the First Lord of the Admiralty explain why Zeppelins were not built before the War, and why a Zeppelin which was being built during the War was not gone on with?" I am not going to discuss the policy of the present Board in connection with lighter-than-air craft, though I may say that we are building no inconsiderable numbers of lighter-than-air craft at this moment, largely for the purpose which my hon. Friend refers to—the purpose of scouting. If he asks me why these ships were not built before he must recognise that the whole policy of Zeppelin versus Aeroplane is still undecided, and that the most competent people hold the most diverse views upon it. I think the hon. Member (Mr. Lynch) himself took the line of saying that he did not believe in Zeppelins compared with aircraft, and there is a large number of great authorities who take exactly that view. No nation—I do not care what nation it is—could expand equally in every conceivable direction. You have to choose, and there are many persons—I do not say they are right: I have not an opinion—who think that Germany chose wrongly. I believe the hon. Member thinks that Germany chose wrongly. If Germany chose wrongly in the matter, I hope the criticism upon the preceding Board of Admiralty will be mitigated in severity. If the Germans were wrong in putting as much energy, money, skill, invention and manufacturing power into the making of Zeppelins, do not let us criticise the preceding Boards of Admiralty because they did not fall into the same error.

But passing from this general question as to whether you ought to construct Zeppelins rather than aeroplanes, or aeroplanes rather than Zeppelins, I come to the more particular criticisms my hon. Friend made, with regard to the defence of London. With some of his observations I am in hearty agreement. I quite agree with him, for example, that the defence of London, or any other place within this Island, should largely, and as far as possible, be a coast defence. It cannot be wholly a coast defence. London must have local defences as well as coast defences, but I entirely agree that we should extend the circle of our defences as far as possible, and if you can, and when you can, you should catch your Zeppelin as he approaches your shores, and I doubt not that as we get more and more of the necessary appliances for doing so, we shall more and more succeed in that object. Let me add something to what the hon. Member has said. Our defence against Zeppelins should not be limited by the shore, and they are not limited by the shore. You cannot have a ring of cruisers round the island, of course, but it is undoubtedly the fact that we can use, and should use, and we do use our ships of war as far as possible to anticipate and prevent attacks on the Metropolis. But all these questions of defence or gun power are limited, just as the aeroplane service is limited. It is limited by what we have got. We are making as hard as we can aeroplanes; we are making pilots and we are making guns. But we are behindhand. We have always been behindhand in this War. It has never been denied. I am not responsible for it. That is part of what I may call the admitted commonplaces of the situation. We have not had, and we still have not, all the munitions that we shall have, or that we ought to have. Until we have them, it is impossible that we should have the defences entirely satisfactory in their character or amount. They are improving every day. They are much more formidable now than they were, and they will be much more formidable than they are. I do not think the House will think it reasonable to ask for any further assurance than that which I can most truthfully give them. We have never been supplied with all the guns we want. We have taken guns from the less necessary places to the more necessary places, and there are positions on ships and on land where I would like to have guns where I cannot have guns, simply because the guns are not yet there, though they will be there. The House must accept that as an unfortunate fact, which is being remedied, which has for months been in process of being remedied, is from day to day improving, and will get right, I hope, before a not very long time. I do not pretend that we have at this moment, either in London or out of London, all the guns that are desirable or necessary for its complete protection.

My hon. Friend dealt with one other point. He said, "Is not your organisation for the defence of the country against Zeppelins hopelessly complicated and confused, and would not everything go on smoother if it was under one authority?' I do not think the organisation is the most perfect organisation that can be devised, but I do not quite see how you could work it with one authority. At any rate, that might not conduce to things going more smoothly. The Navy must be concerned, however you put it, because, as I have just explained, the defence at sea is part of the defence against Zeppelins. Therefore, if everything on land is put under the Army you would still have some of your anti-Zeppelin defences under the Navy, and no conceivable arrangement will get rid of that. When you are dealing with a great area like the Metropolis you must bring in the police, the Home Office, the county council and the fire brigade, as well as the Army and the Navy. That represents a large number of separate Departments. I do not think, so far as my observation goes, that this produces any real dislocation at moments of action. As regards information, the Army and the Navy are in the closest touch. It is quite true that some of the flying stations near London are under the Army and some of the flying stations near London are under the Navy. My hon. Friend, I think, was unduly sensitive as to an observation I made in answer to a question, when I said that in the case of the naval stations the Navy sent up the aeroplanes, and in the case of the Army stations the Army sends them up. It cannot be otherwise. I really do not know in what other light I could answer him. If he can suggest a kindlier form of phrase, I should deeply regret not having used it. For my own part, my linguistic powers fail under the strain of devising some better form of words. If you say, as my hon. Friend desires to say, "What a monstrous system it is that there should be in the neighbourhood of London flying stations where the Army sends up the flyers, and another station in the neighbourhood of London where the Navy sends up the flyers." I am not sure that that division of authority really has the ill-consequence which my hon. Friend supposes.

These stations are in the closest telephonic communication. Each knows exactly what is being done at the other stations. There is no difference of policy or principle, and there is no division of authority. There is not, and I think there can hardly be, a collision between one and the other, and in these circumstances I greatly doubt whether any of the ills that my hon. Friend seems to think follows the system are really to be found. Nor do I see how he would alter that system at present. These are flying stations where training goes on. I am very much dissatisfied with the division of stations, so far as the Navy is concerned, and I am very anxious to have a much larger training school and to unify the training as far as possible in one place. I believe that would mean a great saving of expenditure, and a great increase in efficiency. That would alter the system, no doubt, of these flying stations round London, but until the new system can be introduced the flying stations are there, and they have to be used by the Army and the Navy respectively. If we are to hand over our flying stations to the Army without having any other stations, we cannot carry on our training. I will, therefore, say that this division is an almost inevitable element in the present system. I hope, in some respects, the system will improve, but I do not think all its improvements will produce a closer co-operation and a greater harmony than now exists between the Naval and the Army Flying Corps engaged in this particular work. I will not enter upon the vexed question of whether aeroplanes are the best defence against Zeppelins, or whether gunfire is the best defence. I believe the highest authorities on that point again differ. It must be remembered that the experience of mankind, not merely of the British Army or of the Navy, but the experience of mankind generally, is exceedingly limited upon this point, and it is quite natural that great authorities should entertain different sets of opinion. As far as we are concerned, we desire to bring both to the highest degree of perfection. We are doing all we can to increase the gun defences of London, and we certainly desire to increase also the aeroplane defences of London. But let the House always remember that we are brought up constantly by this deficiency of material and of trained men. No fairy waving of wand can put that right. It can only be put right by hard work in the Departments concerned—the Departments concerned including, of course, not least the Munitions Department. That hard work is being undertaken to the best of our ability, and such deficiencies as exist I hope will be soon cured.

My hon. Friend concluded with an aspiration in which I heartily sympathise with him, that the time will come when this country will be able to take the offensive in air warfare. I think he rather underrated the difficulty of doing that with aeroplanes. The aeroplane at present has not got the range which would make it possible from these shores to do anything important against our enemy. The time may come when the power of the aeroplane will so increase its length of flight, the load it can carry, and its powers of offence, that an aeroplane, starting from the shores of Norfolk, might become a menace and a terror on the banks of the Rhine. But that time is not yet, and there is no use our pretending that it is. The hon. Gentleman, I think, is under a misapprehension on one point. He seems to think that the raids lately came from Zeppelins housed and having their base in Belgium. That, I believe, is not the fact. They come from North Germany, and they come from a distance where, at present, effective attack on our part is not easy. He may rest assured, easy or difficult, that air attack is an operation of war constantly in our thoughts. We desire as ardently as he does that such an attack may take place. It will always be a matter of difficulty and peril, and I doubt not for the very reasons he gave. My hon. Friend, in the earlier part of his speech, dwelt upon the way in which Paris had been made secure by the very large number of 75 centimeter guns ranged around the city. As aeroplanes increase in power, guns increase in precision, and increase in numbers, and the skill of those who use the guns increases also, and I am not sure that it will ever be possible for one country to have such a fleet of aeroplanes as to allow them to attack successfully such a place as Essen. It might be so, and I live in hopes that it may be so. If it is impossible to defend Essen, I would suggest that it cannot be very easy to defend London. The area of London—I forget how many square miles it is—is, I think, between forty and fifty square miles.

Essen is a great manufacturing centre, but it does not rise to that. If, in the hon. Gentleman's view, it is possible for us to create aircraft to destroy Essen, it cannot be difficult for the Germans to create aircraft which will cause loss and suffering and destruction in London. However, we need not look forward to developments which it is impossible to foresee with accuracy. Let us deal, to the best of our ability, with the problems of the moment. As to the character of those problems I am in entire harmony with my hon. Friend. I think that the duty of the Admiralty is to develop to the utmost the number of their aeroplanes, the power of their aeroplanes, and the number and the skill of the pilots who have control of them. I think it is the duty of the Admiralty to develop to the utmost the gun protection of London, whether at the coast or whether in London itself, or whether on board ship. These problems are obviously novel, they are complex and not easy of solution, but they are constantly before the Board of Admiralty. I hope the country may rest assured that whatever can be done by the Board of Admiralty will be done, and I am quite certain that the energies of that Board will not be wanting in carrying out all that may be required in the defences of His Majesty's Dominions.

Suppression of "Globe" Newspaper

6.0 P.M.

I am sorry not to be able to follow the discussion that has been raised on the subject of the Air Service, or even that which was raised below the Gangway from the Irish Benches. But as the House knows, that is the fault of the system by which we have to discuss on a Vote of Credit so many subjects at such different times and in so many different ways. The subject which I desire to bring before the House is concerned with the recent action of the Government in suppressing and suspending a London evening newspaper for an offence under the Defence of the Realm Act, and as that action on the part of the Government seems to me to raise entirely new problems, and an issue which would be extremely far-reaching from the point of view not only of the liberty of the Press, but also the liberty of individuals, I desire to draw the attention of the House to this subject. It is necessary, if Members of the House are to understand what the exact position is, to recall the events of last Friday and Saturday as nearly as possible in chronological order. On the morning of Friday, the 5th of November, there appeared in the "Daily Express," one of the leading morning dailies, a mysterious paragraph, in black leaded type, suggesting that there were some changes taking place at the War Office which would have an important result in connection with the conduct of the War. That paragraph was the first indication that anything was happening at the War Office. It might be interesting for the Government to inquire how it is that so very many Cabinet secrets appear in the "Daily Express" before they are known in the House of Commons, and before they are even known to some of the members of the Cabinet.

May I recall the fact that the announcement of the Coalition Cabinet was made in the "Daily Express" when it was denied in this House by the Prime Minister, and similarly with regard to the proposals concerning the control of the liquor traffic. And if the Cabinet are on the outlook for leakage they might inquire inside the Cabinet how Cabinet secrets leak out of it into the "Daily Express." On Friday at mid-day there appeared on the poster issued by the London "Evening News" these words: "Is Asquith at the War Office?" If you will discuss, as I dare say we must discuss in considering this question, whether or not you are perturbing the public mind, I can conceive of nothing more perturbing than the appearance on an "Evening News" poster in London of the question as to whether or not Asquith was at the War Office, because we recollect what the meaning of that was in the past and its source. On Friday afternoon the "Globe" newspaper appeared with an account of Lord Kitchener's tendered resignation. Incidentally may I make this remark, which I will substantiate in what I have got to say, that the "Globe" newspaper, alone among all the newspapers who dealt with this, never said at any moment that Lord Kitchener had resigned. There was only one piece of evidence to which I will refer later, but that is a salient consideration, in dealing with these facts, that the "Globe" alone of all the newspaper Press was the only one which never said that Lord Kitchener had resigned. On Friday afternoon the "Globe" came out, and its poster was, "Lord Kitchener Tenders His Resignation." At 4.30 o'clock on the same afternoon there was sent round, by the Central News Agency, to the whole Press in London the definite piece of information, which also appeared in the "Stop Press" telegrams of the "Globe" newspaper, to this effect:— papers there appeared for the first and the only time in connection with the "Globe" a poster which said that Lord Kitchener had resigned. That was the only occasion, and that poster was not issued until the Central News had sent round to the London Press the information that Lord Kitchener had resigned. That was the poster which was exhibited gratuitously the other evening in the House of Lords by Lord Curzon. It is interesting to recollect, even in connection with the publication of the information from the Central News, that the "Westminster Gazette," which so regularly represents the opinions of the Coalition on all subjects with great regularity, and as some of my Friends suggest great servility, actually explained afterwards that it inserted this news about Lord Kitchener, though it was cognisant of the fact that inside three-quarters of an hour the Press Bureau were issuing a statement with regard to Lord Kitchener's position. So that this reputable and respectable newspaper, which represents the Coalition so faithfully, knowing that there was going to be a statement from the Press Bureau, did not fail to catch the pennies from the chance customer in London—they get very few, and, therefore, require all those aids—with the information that Lord Kitchener had resigned. Then we got the information from the Press Bureau, which at 5.30 on Friday evening stated that they had received instructions to announce that during Lord Kitchener's temporary absence on public duty the Prime Minister is carrying on the work at the War Office. view that other activities would be found for Lord Kitchener. Take such a paper as the "Manchester Guardian." There is no newspaper in the country more universally respected as a journal than the "Manchester Guardian." whatever its politics. Here is what the "Manchester Guardian" said on Saturday morning:—

But the same authorities, who were so extremely quick to raid the "Globe" newspaper offices, had not time apparently to buy any more copies of any other newspapers in London that evening. Some of us had time to buy other newspapers. I hold in my hand the "Evening News," the "War late extra," which is published the last thing in the evening in London, and here is what it says with regard to this matter, after the "Globe" had been suppressed, and it says it in leaded type, underlined, in the initial column: "To-day the 'Evening News' has to make another important announcement." This in spite of the statement from the Press Bureau, which cannot issue any false news. Well, you can buy the "Evening News" this week, but you cannot buy the "Globe." I could read other extracts. There is one further down which says that Lord Kitchener will not return, and that he is now engaged on other duties. That is printed in italics, and the last paragraph of the same article reports that. As to what the public will want to know, I will deal with that later in my speech. I want to put the facts first. From Friday morning from the leakage of a Cabinet secret in the "Daily Express" to the period when the Government suppressed the "Globe," and were afraid to suppress any other paper, let me attempt to reconstruct the action of the authorities. This action against the "Globe" was undertaken by the Government presumably. We have been assured since, at any rate, that it was taken by the Government, but as a matter of actual sequence in time it was undertaken by General Sir Francis Lloyd. I want to read what General Sir Francis Lloyd said about the action which he took. This appears in an interview with a representative of the "Daily Mail" with General Sir Francis Lloyd. All these papers will be able to take care of themselves and the veracity of their reports. General Sir Francis Lloyd said:— In the House of Lords, Lord Curzon said that the Government authorised the action to be taken. Was it the Government, or was it General Sir Francis Lloyd? Which of them is "malignant," and which of them is "mischievous"? That is what the Home Secretary has got to deal with. Lord Curzon said that the suppression of the "Globe" was accomplished after due warnings as to publishing false statements. We shall want to know what those due warnings were. I happen to be acquainted personally with the editor of the "Globe"; I do not, therefore, express any view with regard to the abilities or qualities of that gentleman. I am glad to be able to say, however, that Dr. Sir William Robertson Nicoll, probably one of the best-known and most creditable journalists and editors in the country, and editing a paper which I am reminded is the official organ of the Minister of Munitions, says Mr. Palmer is a very able and energetic journalist, who has conducted the "Globe" during this War period with conspicuous ability. Therefore we are talking about a journalist of reputation, and Lord Curzon tells us that he was duly warned about these things.

I have seen Mr. Palmer, and seen him frequently, and from the beginning to the end of these proceedings there was no warning of any kind or sort which the Government can produce as tangible evidence on which they could take action of this kind. When the Government desire any of our newspapers not to take a certain line they send round such a memorandum as this, for example: "You are requested not to make any mention at all of the movements of Lord Kitchener," or "You are requested not to take any notice of the movements of the Minister of Munitions," and so on. I have copies of these memoranda here, but the House knows perfectly well that they are sent round from time to time. On this occasion the Government knew that Lord Kitchener had gone to the East; the Cabinet knew, and the Prime Minister knew when he was speaking in this House on Tuesday last and telling us about the situation. They knew then about these things. Of course this House could not be told, but there could be slipped into the "Daily Express" a Cabinet secret—a repetition of the leakage such as I have pointed out has occurred over and over again. My conclusion on my second point, is that either this general is not telling the truth or that the Cabinet have made some sort of arrangement which can be explained.

I should like the Home Secretary to tell me whether it was after the Cabinet met on Saturday that they made up their mind to suppress the "Globe," or was it before the Saturday the "Globe" was issued; because, if their mind was made up on Saturday, which member of the Cabinet went out and bought the "Globe," for it was not issued at the time they sat? Where did they buy the "Globe," if they meant to suppress it, and if it was on the Saturday that they came to a decision on the subject? My own impression is that it was decided before the issue of the "Globe" on Saturday to suppress the paper for other reasons, which I am not going into, there being others associated with me who hope to be able to speak on this subject. I am trying to put the case from the factual side, and the factual side only. What is the position now, and this is my third point? The "Globe" is a suppressed newspaper, but I believe its offices are being used for recruiting purposes. If you suppress the newspaper you cannot suppress the patriotism of those who conduct it and. who allow its offices to be used for recruiting purposes. Like the Minister of Munitions, who is so desirous of picking up-lathes and other pieces of machinery, they entered the "Globe" offices and took portions of their machinery used for printing the paper. That is the position. No charge of any kind has yet been formulated against the editor or directors of the "Globe," or the shareholders, if there are such people. No opportunity has been given to the "Globe" people to defend their position; no judicial proceedings of any kind have been taken. Lord Curzon in the House of Lords denounced the "Globe." The Prime Minister, accepting hospitality at the Guildhall, has denounced the "Globe" in inhospitable language, calling the managers "malignant and mischievous." I say, and I think the House will agree with me, that it is not British for a Minister in the House of Lords and for the Prime Minister at the Guildhall banquet, to discuss a matter of this kind against people whom they put in a position where they can say nothing. I say this is against the traditions at any rate of the country where I come from. As I said before, it is not British, and we do not reckon that it is British.

What conclusion must we come to on these facts? May I ask the Home Secretary whether the "Globe" was suppressed for publishing news which would cause "disaffection to His Majesty," or would "interfere with the success of our Forces," or that would come under any of the other phrases which are used in fifty-one of the Regulations under the Defence of the Realm Act? Was that the reason, or was it for forcing the statement, following on the mischievous paragraph in the "Daily Express" upon the British public, who ought to have known it on Tuesday from the Prime Minister here in the House of Commons? There is a peculiar significance about the choice of the "Globe." Of all the papers who published this rumour in any form, the only pro-Kitchener paper, the only pro-War Secretary paper dealt with is the "Globe." Of all the other papers which thought that Lord Kitchener would be better away, and have suggested other occupations for him—I need not weary the House with quotations from them—the pro-Kitchener "Globe" was selected. In regard to this matter, Members of the House know that I was about the only Member of this House who suggested that it was a mistake to put Lord Kitchener at the War Office. I said that, not because I did not believe in Lord Kitchener, but because I believed in him as a soldier, and did not believe in an officer being put in the position of War Secretary of this country. Perhaps the Home Secretary will tell us why the "Globe" was chosen, and why they seized on this one paper? If it was said that it was depressing the public mind, let us remember what has happened under the auspices of the Department which the Home Secretary represents to-day.

The House remembers the publication of the Mons dispatch in the "Times" newspaper. I remember that I was taking tea at Gloucester House, Richmond Park, on the afternoon that dispatch was published. Everybody round the table was perturbed, and the English people were perturbed, for it was the famous dispatch in which the people were informed that the British Army had been cut to pieces. The House will remember also the gentleman who was Press Censor at that time, now the Attorney-General, and in the present Cabinet, and therefore the Law Officer advising the Cabinet as to the selection of matters for prosecution. He, rightly or wrongly—and it may have been done for good reasons, and he can defend himself on the point—doctored that dispatch and put something into it, and what he put in was published in the "Times" newspaper. Was any action taken by anybody against the "Times" newspaper at that time for publishing it? If not, why not? To show that I have no animus against the "Times," or against any daily newspaper, let me take a more recent case just to illustrate the preference or lack of discretion on the part of this office in dealing with these matters. The House will recollect that we at the present moment are very much concerned in the recruiting of men for the Army. We are divided. Some of us think those men ought to be recruited on a voluntary basis and others think that they ought to be recruited by means of Conscription. At any rate, we are all agreed we must get the men, and we mean to get them in one way or another. There is a weekly paper called the "Nation." While you can suppress the "Globe," apparently you are afraid to tackle the "Nation." On the 30th of October a private and confidential communication from the Official Press Bureau was sent to every newspaper dealing with a paragraph written by Mr. Massingham the editor of the "Nation," with regard to recruiting. I need not read the paragraph, as I do not wish to take up too much time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Read it."] It is not very long. Mark what the Press Bureau think of it. It is "inaccurate," it is "misleading," it has a "prejudicial effect" which will stop recruiting. The "Nation" republished the same thing the Saturday after that had been issued. The "Daily News" publishes that paragraph for their own purposes, to which I do not object as I am in favour of the freedom of the whole Press, but I am only pointing out the anomalies. Is anything done to the "Nation" newspaper? Is anything done to the "Daily News" newspaper? Is anything done to the "Westminster Gazette"? Is anything done to the powerful "Times," and the London "Evening News?" Why do they select one of the most courageous and challenging little papers that has been issued during the whole progress of this War in London. It is a most extraordinary proceeding on the part of the Government. I might read a letter, but since I did not take the opportunity to see my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) before I spoke I will not refer to his letter in the "Morning Post" which otherwise I might have done. I only want to make one more quotation to show how the tentacles of the Press Bureau octopus do not find their way into every newspaper. I hold in my hand a copy of the "Daily Despatch" of Tuesday, 9th November. That is the Tuesday of the week in which the "Globe" is still suppressed for something which it has done, but for which no charge has yet been brought against it. In the "Daily Despatch," in the London letter—written presumably by someone in the Press Gallery and circulated in the paper—this is said about Lord Kitchener:— going to go back to the War Office. We know from the Prime Minister at the Guildhall that that is a "mischievous and malignant lie." What about the activity of the Press Bureau on Tuesday? It was active enough last Saturday. The conclusion I draw is that the Government is afraid to apply its powers impartially, and I am surprised that a Cabinet which contains the Minister of Munitions is afraid to apply its powers impartially in a crisis like this. It seems that it is willing to make selections, and then having made them, to leave the paper selected, like Mahomet's coffin, suspended between heaven and earth. There are no judicial proceedings, and up to to-day there is a mysterious silence on the part of the Government. I fear we have reached the position foreshadowed by the present Secretary for the Colonies when on the Front Opposition Bench, which is now adorned by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Chaplin) whom we all look to on many occasions, that right hon. Gentleman said:—

My last point is a more general one. What is the Press entitled to know about the intentions of the Government? If it has happened to the "Globe," it may happen to any other newspaper tomorrow, and are they to understand from what is taking place that these Regulations 27 and 51 of the Defence of the Realm Act put them in this extraordinary position? The Home Secretary said, if any other newspaper did what the "Globe" had done he would treat it in the same way. I have given them an example of a paper that did worse, and we will see what courage, or Dutch courage, he has displayed in the circumstances that I have described. I say that the House will desire to know two things. There is a difference surely between preventing the repetition, the repeated publication, of Press reports and the suspension of a newspaper. This is what has happened already in another respect. The Government, very wrongly from my point of view, because I believe in complete liberty, seized certain pamphlets connected with the "Labour Leader," some of which are written by people of certain distinction. They have not seized the "Labour Leader" or closed down the newspaper. They have acquired the pamphlets which to them were offensive and have prevented them being circulated, but in this other case, the case of a great newspaper, or a newspaper, they have not only seized the offending copies, but they have prevented the newspaper from proceeding with its work.

Is the Press generally to understand if they commit a similar offence that the position of the Government will be to put in force against them the machinery of the Defence of the Realm Act, seizing not only their copies, but all the machinery which is effective inside the office; or whether they are to be protected against this Executive act by the continuance of the newspaper, all the offending papers having been seized, till the issue has been settled in the Courts of Law, and in the open Courts? Because I may say to the Prime Minister quite frankly, what he cannot hear because he does not knock about the country in the same way that we do in visiting our constituencies, there is great feeling in the country among working men against this process which is growing of holding trials of any kind in camera. There was a commercial traveller the other day fined £100 for something he said against recruiting. That may be quite right, and I do not know what the offence was, but I do say that it is not British that a man should be tried and fined £100 in secret. The newspapers of this country may find themselves in that position. We ourselves may find ourselves in that position. Do Members of this House know that the questions they ask and the answers that are given to them are censored by the Press Bureau? [An HON. MEMBER: "Quite right!"] One hon. Member agrees that that ought to be done to any questions he puts. I am pointing out that in addition to the Press we ourselves may find ourselves in such a position that we may, like the "Globe" newspaper, be shut up and unable to express our opinions and our views and have nobody who can put our case. Everybody is wondering when the next issue of the "Globe" is going to be made. The "Globe" proprietors and editor are wondering whether they are going to receive a specific charge. We may find ourselves in that position, and therefore I venture this afternoon to raise what is to me a bigger question altogether than the suppression of the "Globe," although I am against that. The suppression of facts which the Prime Minister called "malignant and mischievous" may be under certain circumstances quite right. I express my own view about it. I believe Lord Kitchener tendered his resignation. I do, in spite of what the Prime Minister said, believe that Lord Kitchener tendered his resignation. Of course, I know I may be told that that is not true, and I allow the Prime Minister to put his case and make his statement. A great majority of people will believe the Prime Minister in preference to the view I hold. Why should they not? But why should I not hold that view?

May I remind the hon. Member that he said just now that we had great respect for the Prime Minister?

Certainly; I have a great respect for the Prime Minister. I have never challenged, until this Debate arose, the question whether the statement was true or not. I am telling the House quite frankly what my view is from what I know. I therefore ask these questions. I want to know from the Home Secretary the exact offence of the "Globe" newspaper. I want to know why the "Globe" newspaper only was dealt with. I want to know what warnings were given to the "Globe" newspaper as indicated by Lord Curzon in the House of Lords. I want to know why General Sir Francis Lloyd said that he acted "on his own," if he did so, and the Prime Minister said it was done with his cognisance and consent, and therefore not alone by General Sir Francis Lloyd. I want to know why no charge has yet been made against the "Globe." I want to know why no proceedings have been taken. I want to know whether the policy of the Government in future is to be governed by this example, and whether the Press is to be liable to suspension without an appeal to the Courts. I think that these are points upon which the House of Commons is entitled to have information, and that the Press and the people of this country have a right to expect to be protected from arbitrary Executive actions of any authority such as our Cabinet.

I am not going to deal with the general question which has been raised by the hon. Gentleman. I leave that to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. But I am bound at once, in view of what the hon. Member has said, to make a personal statement on my own behalf. The hon. Gentleman has been good enough to say that he has a certain amount of respect for me. In that context he charges me with being a party to deliberate and inexcusable falsehoods. He said a moment ago that he believed Lord Kitchener did tender his resignation. Lord Kitchener never tendered his resignation. Neither to the King nor to myself, who are the only two people to whom he could tender it, did Lord Kitchener ever breathe one word of resignation. The hon. Gentleman repeats that statement after it has been contradicted in the most explicit and emphatic terms by the Government of which I am the head; because in the notice issued by the Press Bureau, on Saturday last, this is the language that was held:—

There is only one word more. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that the "Globe" newspaper was singled out on some principle of partiality and special treatment. He might very well have asked the question, "Why did you not proceed against the newspaper which contained this letter?" The distinction is a very plain one. So far as I am concerned, I will never be a party to punitive or to vindictive proceedings against the Press of this country so long as they confine themselves to critcism of myself or of any other individaul. But the offence of the "Globe" was that it invented and circulated a deliberate and mischievous fabrication in regard to a matter of fact—a fabrication which, unless it was at once contradicted and the contradiction accepted, and the strongest measures taken to prevent the continued repetition of the offence—for it had already been repeated before we took any proceedings at all—was calculated to do the greatest injury to this country in the eyes of the world. I have said all I have to say about the matter, and I am quite sure the House will accept my statement.

I rise only to say a single word, and it is this: For the decencies of public life, and for something more—the character of the House of Commons—I hope these charges will be withdrawn.

7.0 P.M.

It is not my desire to enter into any personal controversy on this particular matter. My desire is to deal with the facts of this particular action on the part of the Government. I have no desire to contradict or to call in question in any way the word of the Prime Minister. I have at no time done so, either in this House or outside it. We are here discussing, and the discussion initiated by my hon. Friend was mainly concerned with, a particular action of the Government in relation to a particular newspaper; and I think, after having listened to the discussion, that those Members who heard the facts, as stated by my hon. Friend, will agree that such defence as the Prime Minister has given on those facts is not adequate to the charge made against the Government. I do not intend to cover all the facts which have been so ably dealt with by my hon. Friend. I would point out, however, that it is a mistake on the part of the Prime Minister to say that this statement was invented by the "Globe" newspaper. I do not believe that any responsible editor of any journal in this country invents statements of that kind. He may publish inaccurate statements, but I believe that every responsible editor in this country before publishing any statement of fact endeavours to obtain what he regards as good authority for the statement. I am in a position to say that the editor of the "Globe" believed that he had good authority for that statement, and I may say that at the time it was published I met many Members of this House, more or less well-informed, some connected with the Government not remotely, and everyone of those men believed that the statement was made on good authority. Consequently there was no invention. The second point is this: The Prime Minister stated that the Press Bureau denied the statement of the editor of the "Globe." The Press Bureau on Friday night did not deny the statement of the "Globe." It denied the statement of the Central News, which was the only body to publish the statement that Lord Kitchener had definitely resigned. The statement of the "Globe" newspaper was that Lord Kitchener had tendered his resignation, which had not been accepted. That was a very different statement. The right hon. Gentleman who is to reply in this Debate knows himself the difference between tendering a resignation and its acceptance, and the colleagues who left the late Cabinet with him know the difference! But that is beside the point. Let us establish the difference between resignation and tendering a resignation. Obviously I have established that difference by the Press Bureau, of which the right hon. Gentleman is the head is it surprising, therefore, when the statement of the Central News was denied, and not the statement of the "Globe," that the editor of the "Globe," relying upon the authority which he had, should have once more repeated what had not been denied? It is for repeating a statement which had never been denied that this newspaper was suppressed. As my hon. Friend beside me remarks, nearly every paper in London and the provinces took the line that the Press Bureau's denial did not mean that Lord Kitchener had not resigned. I can quote the "Manchester Guardian." It has already been quoted, but there are some hon. Members who have not heard" it. The "Manchester Guardian" said:— more flagrant case. I can quote the "Daily Chronicle" also. It said:— I do not know whether the Government has or has not taken the copy out of the British Museum.

I should have thought that a master of invective like the new Attorney-General would not thus have turned upon the paper! There are conceivable explanations. There is the explanation that while every other paper on Saturday refused to accept the denial of the Press Bureau, and desired Lord Kitchener not to return to the War Office, the only paper in the country who desired Lord Kitchener to return to the War Office and continue the conduct of the war was suppressed. I think there is a moral. It was not the statement of the fact of Lord Kitchener's permanent retirement that was objected to. It was the fact that this newspaper was advocating his permanent retention. Then we have the glaring case of the "Evening News." Is it only because the editor of the "Globe" had not those powerfully martialled newspaper battalions, that he had only one ewe lamb of the Press, that he could be proceeded against with impunity, while Lord North cliffe, the Napoleon of modern journalism, was too powerful for the great Coalition Government? In the defence in the House of Lords we had a new suggestion. We were told that such a statement was intolerable while delicate diplomatic negotiations were going on. But in the newspapers on 12th October, when the same diplomatic negotiations were going on, when the situation was not less; delicate, the newspapers published a statement of the resignation of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin University. There was an official denial then, and we have since learned from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in the House of Commons that his letter of resignation was dated 12th October. That is what makes it impossible for us to accept all we are asked to accept; that makes us doubtful about these official denials. We get official denials which are subsequently proved to be untrue. Is it unnatural, therefore, that the editor of the "Globe" should have been led astray? We hear a Noble Lord in the House of Lords telling us that our officers both in France and at the Dardanelles say that the German communiqués are more-trustworthy than our own. Is it any wonder, therefore, that people hesitate about the acceptance of official denials! More, the Press Bureau themselves know how weak their position is, because they have issued an appeal to newspapers to publish reports of inquests so that people will believe the statistics of death. Is it any wonder, therefore, that there is this scepticism, a perfectly natural scepticism, when from such exalted quarters, from the Press Bureau itself, there is this admission?

That is not all. This diplomatic crisis has gone on since before 28th September, when the Foreign Secretary made his statement in this House, a statement which has been so frequently quoted. We had another paper coming out on Friday, 22nd October, with the headings: "National Unity in Danger"; "A Conspiracy Against the Cabinet"; "Fomenting Discontent"; "The Plot Unmasked." That is the "Daily Chronicle." It gives three columns to it, with an alternative Government. The plotters are the Minister of Munitions, the Lord Privy Seal, the Secretary for India, the Colonial Secretary, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Carson), and Lord Milner in the House of Lords. These were the men who are undermining the Cabinet. There was no official denial to that. Here is the case of exactly the same kind of statement. We are told in that article that on any day the Cabinet might break in pieces. We were told that plainly. Was that not calculated to disturb the public mind? [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] I am afraid my hon. Friend beside me ought not to be taken as a fair specimen of the average public. He knows the Coalition too well. I am talking of those who do not know what is going on here; who do not hear the gossip in the Lobby about the Coalition. I am talking about the people out of doors, who only read the Press that gives them Californian Syrup of Figs all the time. Was that not calculated to disturb the public mind? Was that not a statement which would be printed in the Press of neutral countries? Was that not calculated to upset the minds of Bulgarian Ministers, of Greek Ministers, and of the neutral countries which were hanging in the balance? No, the editor of the "Globe" does not play golf with Cabinet Ministers. The case of unjust preference is absolutely made out here. I wish to make a further remark on the hypocrisy of this talk about the delicacy of the diplomatic situation. We in this House remember the extreme delicacy of the diplomatic situation when the late Government fell. Why did the late Government fall? Because a Debate on two questions was threatened in the House of Commons by the then official Opposition, of which Lord Curzon, who now prates of the delicate diplomatic situation, was a responsible member. Let us have no more of this hypocrisy; this cant of the Coalition. No, Sir, this is a case not only of unfair, arbitrary, unjust, oppressive, and tyrannical action; this is a case where every tradition of British justice has been thrown aside.

If it is true that the Government are justified in acting under Regulations 27 and 51, and the editor and the publishers of the "Globe" are guilty of an offence under Regulation 27, why have they not been brought to trial in open Court, where it could be decided whether the editor of the "Globe" had invented this? You would have had a different tribunal from a Guildhall banquet. I prefer an alderman of the City in the morning to an alderman of the City at night. When the Defence of the Realm (Consolidation) Act was going through this House, the right hon. Gentleman reassured my friends who are jealous of liberty that in every case there would be free and open trial. That was to get it through the House of Commons. But when they have got it through, they make regulations which no Member of the House of Commons had in mind, and they are acting on these regulations—no trial at all; an indefinite suspension against this newspaper, not for a day or a week, but it may go on for weeks. I know the German Government suppress papers. It has suppressed "Vorwaerts" for one day only. If you are going to out-Prussianise the Prussians, out-Prussianise them in efficiency and not in tyranny. There have been great speeches made in the Guildhall. This has been the first time that the suppression of a London newspaper has been trumpeted forth as if it were a victory over our enemies. There was a great speech made more than a hundred years ago, after the battle of Austerlitz, by a great Minister. He said, "England has saved herself by her efforts; she will save Europe by her example." Are we to maintain that example, an example of which we have always been proud—an example of liberty, of justice, and of truth? The Prime Minister spoke of our fighting to emancipate Europe from the dominion of force. But what is the distinction between the system against which we fight and that for which we are fighting? The dominion of force is one without legal forms, without any of the traditions of justice. We seek to reestablish against the dominion of force the dominion of law and justice, and we can only do that if throughout this War and at its conclusion we in this country preserve those great traditions of justice un-trammelled, undimmed, and unimpaired.

The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has, as we shall all agree, made a very powerful speech, but I cannot help thinking that those of us who were present here when the Prime Minister spoke from this box just now, as the hon. Gentleman was present, will be more struck by something which his speech did not contain than by all his carefully prepared eloquence. The House will judge. The House heard the Prime Minister just before my hon. Friend spoke repudiate a foul aspersion against his character and his honour. The right hon. Gentleman opposite got up immediately in order to say that he hoped this foul aspersion might be withdrawn. But, instead of that, the hon. Gentleman, rising beside the author of that attack, has thought it proper to descant on a great number of subjects, but, so far as the Prime Minister is concerned, the only reference I could detect was a sneering reference to his powers of speech.

I am within the recollection of the House. I said I desired in no way to cast any doubt on the statement of the Prime Minister.

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman means us to understand by that that he repudiates or that he supports.

Some hon. Members take a different view. I do not regard this as a laughing matter. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman intends by what he has said to repudiate or to affirm the assertion of his hon. Friend. On the question of the dealing with the "Globe," there are two matters which are separate, and, in order that I may deal with it as I wish to do quite clearly and without heat, I would ask the House to remember that the two matters are quite distinct. I do not make any complaint that the two hon. Gentlemen who have spoken in criticism have passed from time to time from one to the other point. It is one thing to complain that the "Globe" has been dealt with in the way it has. It is a perfectly fair question to raise, and it is certainly in every way proper that those responsible for such action should be invited to justify it. It is a perfectly distinct and different question which is raised if people complain that other papers have not been dealt with in the same way as the "Globe." That is also an important question, because impartiality is a thing one always ought to try to secure. But the two things are certainly distinct from one another, and there have certainly been passages in the speeches of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) and the hon. Member for North-west Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) which appear to me at one and the same time to complain that the Government should take this step in any circumstances against any newspaper, and complain that the Government have not taken it against many more newspapers than this one. Let me for the sake of clearness, if on no other ground, take the first of these questions first, and place before the House of Commons what are the considerations which led the Government to the conclusion that it was proper to act in respect of the "Globe" newspaper in the way in which action was taken. The Prime Minister has already stated to-day—and I do not pause to discuss with people who do not accept his statement—that it was not until Thursday of last week that the decision was arrived at which led to Lord Kitchener departing that evening for the Mediterranean; and, indeed, that the very circumstances which caused that decision to be arrived at were not brought to the notice of the Government-until the Wednesday, the Cabinet meeting on Thursday.

Let me deal with one matter which a little surprised me in the speech of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh. I understood him to say that there were no warnings issued to the Press advising them through the Press Bureau that this was a topic which, if any rumours came to their ears, it was desirable in the public interest they should exercise caution. It is surely obvious to the whole House of Commons that there was good reason for that. I do not pause, therefore, to argue the point. But in point of fact there was issued to the newspapers, including the "Globe," on that same Thursday night—that is to say, on the evening of the day on which Lord Kitchener's visit was decided upon, and just about the hour he was presumably leaving London—there was issued from the Press Bureau, by the Government authority, to the Press, including the "Globe," this notice:—

I am going to read a portion, certainly. It is headed, "Lord Kitchener tenders his resignation." And this, the House will observe, is within a few hours of the time when the "Globe" newspaper had been warned by the Press Bureau that the Press were urgently requested to refrain from any reference to the movements of Lord Kitchener. I will put the matter clearly. The "Globe" headlines are:— Bureau itself, says, "I am the author of the statement, and what I complain of in the rest of the Press is that they will not do me the honour of admitting that I am the author." So much for the suggestion, made too late, that the "Globe" was not the author of this statement. I would like the House to consider what was (in the words of the "Globe" when they spoke with a full sense of responsibility), the time and the situation when this happened. The House will readily believe that the Secretary of State for War, who is still Secretary of State for War, and who has no intention of ceasing to be Secretary of State for War, does not take a journey to the Near East for nothing. The grounds upon which he took that course—grounds put before the Cabinet, which were the reason for the decision arrived at—were grounds which I am not going to disclose to the House, for very obvious and sufficient reasons. But surely the House must realise that they must have been very grave and very sudden, and even unexpected grounds. The decision is come to. It is authorised by the Cabinet on the morning of that day. The Secretary of State for War has made all his plans, and he has started by the evening of that day. What would be the effect upon the great interests which we all have in common, not merely the Government, but every Member of this House, and every newspaper in this country—what would be the effect if it went out to the world uncorrected and uncontradicted that Lord Kichener had left, because he is at acute variance with his colleagues, that he has endured the ways of the rest of the Cabinet as long as he can, that his quarrel with them is so deep that, in spite of his devotion to duty, he has to go to his Sovereign when the King is on his sick bed, because he can stand it no longer, and that it is in these circumstances of desperation that the Government has asked Lord Kitchener to go to the Eastern theatre of the War?

At that moment the Greek Government had just been defeated in the Greek Chamber. M. Venizelos was exercising his great influence among his own people, and the issue which might decide the attitude of Greece at this moment of crisis was in the balance. That is the moment when this paper states and repeats this assertion so gravely prejudicial to influences which ought to operate at such a time. Those were the days when our gallant Ally, the Serbian Army, was struggling in the greatest throes of anxiety and endurance that any army has ever at any time had to face. What is the effect upon the Serbian Army, the Serbian people, and the Serbian Government, with all this pressure being exercised against them at that moment, if a statement goes out that, in spite of all contradictions and denials, the "Globe" announces that the Government are lying, and that the British Government has quarrelled with its Secretary of State for War? It is surely clear, at any rate, that it was the bounden duty of the Government in those circumstances to correct that false impression, to prevent the circulation of that lie in the most summary and direct way that it could. Do not let it be thought or supposed that the Government began by sending a force of police to the office of the "Globe." Nothing of the kind. For my own part I have always thought, and I think now, and I thought when this action was taken, and I have thought since, that it is a very serious thing and a very extreme step, whatever be the circumstances of the case, summarily to suppress a public newspaper. If the Government said, "We will have no more of these lying rumours published in defiance of the warning that we have issued, and in spite of the truth," I think even at that stage they would have been wrong. What the Government did was this: They issued through the Press Bureau, first of all, a plain statement that Lord Kitchener had not resigned, and, indeed, that Lord Kitchener had gone to the Eastern theatre of the War. But that made no difference to the "Globe," for they came out again the next day with their statement headed, "The Truth about Lord Kitchener." They withdrew not a single particle "of what they had asserted the day before as to the suggestion that Lord Kitchener was at variance with his colleagues, and that the strain was such that the bond of union had been snapped They never qualified or altered that statement in the slightest degree, and they came out as usual the next afternoon, having in the meantime issued posters as follows:— not listen to the Government when it speaks in a crisis like this it must listen to the Government when it" acts. It is all very well to say, "Oh, yes, why don't you start legal proceedings." I have no prejudice against legal proceedings, but they would necessarily mean delay. Legal proceedings would mean taking out a summons, formulating a charge, giving a period of time before which the case cannot be proceeded with, and then there is the necessity of calling witnesses to deal with these matters. I do not know which course my hon. Friend thinks would be the more reasonable, to endeavour to call the Sovereign from his sick bed or Lord Kitchener from the theatre of war. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] It means taking all these steps before you can even get the lie definitely contradicted in the only way the public will listen to it. This paper refused to listen to the Government when, acting with its full authority we made the most explicit and definite statement of the truth. This paper, and those whoever they may be who conceived this fiction, so affected an hon. Member of this House that even this afternoon he thought it right to come here and say that he believed it and that incidentally he was of opinion that the Prime Minister had misled the public. In these circumstances there is only one thing to do, and that is to secure by the best available means that when the Government contradiction has been published, the Government contradiction should be believed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] There may be some people in this House who, after having heard the Prime Minister's statement—

There may be some hon. Members who, after having heard the Prime Minister's statement are still of opinion that Lord Kitchener tendered his resignation. I do not discuss the matter; but to other people the fact is plain and clear beyond doubt. You cannot call the House of Commons together at five o'clock on a Saturday afternoon, but you can take this action and this was done, and I justify and avow it. In view of the fact that this paper refused to pay the slightest attention to the truth when published under the authority of the Government; in view of the fact that this information was about to be spread, asserted in this way, through out the length and breadth not only of the land but of Europe; in view of the fact that every Sunday paper was necessarily preparing, no doubt more or less tentatively and cautiously, a statement to the public that it really has not been so very far behind the "Globe" in knowing what happened when Lord Kitchener sought His Majesty in his bedroom—in these circumstances I say we did the right thing. This paper has flouted and defied not the Government but the national interests of the country, and in those circumstances let us forthwith, with the necessary military and police authority and force, go to that office, seize that paper, not destroy their plant but dismantle it, and thereby show to all the world that Lord Kitchener has neither resigned, nor contemplated resignation, nor quarrelled with his colleagues, nor produced any other trouble which is prejudicial to the national interests. That is the story so far as the so-called suppression of the "Globe" is concerned. I leave for the moment the totally different question of whether others ought so to be dealt with. But before I pass from the first of these questions let me say this The hon. Gentleman is quite mistaken in supposing that the course which has been taken leaves the "Globe" without recourse to the law. Nothing of the kind. Let me offer a little advice, if the "Globe" cares for it, as to what is its position. Its position is that certain officers of police have entered its premises, and, if you please, entered its premises by force. They have thereby, and unless they can justify what they have done, committed a trespass. They have taken away from those offices a portion of the printing machinery of the paper—not destroyed it. They have thereby committed what lawyers call a "conversion." Any lawyer will tell you that if you can establish these facts and can prove that the steps have been taken without justification you may get swingeing damages. Try it. And I make this offer: I have spoken to the Attorney-General, and I speak with his authority when I say, that if the "Globe" newspaper desires to take these proceedings it shall have every facility for those proceedings to be expedited. They shall have that if the "Globe" desires it to be tried.

Certainly not. My hon. Friend knows very well that I do not differ from him on a point of this sort. He asked me the other day about these trials, and I regret that I was unintentionally much misrepresented by the last speaker on that point. I have said in this House, when I was Attorney-General, I say as Home Secretary—and I have seen so far as I could that it has been carried out—that there is no excuse for trying any case in time of war in camera unless in that case, or parts of it, vital national interests will be prejudiced if you throw the doors open at its trial. As far as this case is concerned, let me say at once that if the "Globe" desires it it shall have the privilege of the "widest possible advertisement. So much for the suggestion that these proceedings leave the "Globe" without an opportunity of legal inquiry. Nothing of the sort.

There is another question which has been asked as to how long the "Globe" is to remain in this present position. I think that will very properly have to be considered, but must be considered in the light of the attitude which the paper thinks it proper to take up on what it has done. I care nothing that a paper claims the right to criticise Ministers. Of course it can as much as it likes, and if, after this investigation, it is not plain to the editors of this paper that, however unwittingly or unintentionally, they have in fact by this premeditated and repeated action, gravely prejudiced the interests the Government were bound to defend, I am bound to say the case of the "Globe" is even more serious than I thought it to be on Saturday. If, on the other hand, we found the "Globe" took the view of the matter which I trust any responsible paper will take when it has heard what the truth is, as stated by the Prime Minister here, that would, in my judgment, very considerably qualify the proper view as to the length that this condition of things is to go on. But I certainly and entirely refuse to accept the proposition that this offence ought to be atoned in one day. You cannot, however unwittingly, by repeated and persistent publication, spread throughout Europe at a time like this the falsehood that Lord Kitchener and his political colleagues are hopelessly divided, and say you have done nothing very serious. You have done something which may very easily fatally prejudice diplomatic negotiations, strategical movements, and political hopes, and greatly as I desire to see that good principle that criticism should be freely allowed preserved, I cannot believe that the good sense of the British people or the British House of Commons is not going to regard what the "Globe" did as a terrible, however unintentional, act of disservice to our national cause.

Two questions have been raised by speakers, and I turn for a moment to the totally distinct, and indeed from some points of view totally contradictory, question: "Why have you not done this to other papers?" One of my hon. Friends I rather think—in fact I know—is a member of the profession to which I belong, and he will confirm me when I say that there is no device more dangerous, or one which experienced counsel is more likely to avoid unless he is in a hopeless difficulty, than that of running two inconsistent defences at once. There is an instance in the defence set up for the "Globe" here. It is said: "You should never have done it to the 'Globe' at all," and then: "There are flagrant cases which you are either afraid, or have refused, to take up." I quite agree it is proper that the "Globe" case should be raised. I do not think much of the defence of the "Globe" that the Central News is more guilty than itself. At any rate, the facts of the Central News case are these. They were observed by the authorities—I do not know whether it is supposed in this matter we have favourites. We have no favourites at all. A letter was written to ask how it came about that on the same afternoon the Central News had circulated, after the "Globe" has come out with the first statement, a statement to the effect that the Central News was able to confirm the resignation of Lord Kitchener. I think it is well that the House should know what the explanation is. The explanation given us, in terms which are certainly perfectly consistent with the Central News realising the gravity of the question we are asking, is this:— have no doubt, after some little experience of how the Press Bureau works, that explanation is a perfectly genuine one. The Central News said it was in those circumstances that they issued the announcement that, "The Central News is able to confirm the resignation of Lord Kitchener." Meanwhile, while it was sending out that message, its representative on the telephone got cut off from the Press Bureau—I am afraid that does sometimes happen—he had not time to explain the message he was sending, though he perfectly understood that the contradiction had to do with the rumoured or reported resignation, and as soon as the Press Bureau statement was issued the Central News proceeded to circulate it everywhere, and in every other way to do its best to overtake and annul its paragraph.

That is the way the Central News behaved on Friday afternoon, and I contrast that with the action of the "Globe," although it had the same opportunity of retractation, in coming out on Saturday with, "The 'Globe's' statement reasserted: the Press Bureau is telling us official lies, and we, the 'Globe' newspaper, ought to have the sole credit for being the author of this priceless piece of gossip." I have never denied the courage or journalistic enterprise of the "Globe," and there is no reason why it should not be saying it to-night, except that it has been stopped. I think I should be right in understanding that the hon. Gentleman has not been speaking without communication with the "Globe," and I understand he came into the House to say that it did not matter what the Prime Minister said, but that he believed the "Globe," and if it had not been that it was squashed, and as I believe absolutely necessarily squashed, by the police on Saturday afternoon, hon. Members when they went into the Tea Room would no doubt have the privilege of seeing the "Globe" continue to assert it. "Never mind what the Prime Minister or the Press Bureau says. Never mind the effect in neutral countries or in the Near East. We continue to assert that he has resigned." And they would be asked to believe that the whole Government had had a fissure driven into its heart which was likely fatally to prejudice it. That is the position of the Central News, and I think very poorly of the people who think it necessary to make a defence by saying, "There is somebody else I should like to tell you about far more guilty than my client." That is a poor defence.

Then there is another case, the serious case of the "Evening News." There, again, I do not know whether there are hon. Gentlemen in this House who think that those responsible for this difficult matter of administration have some special and peculiar reason for desiring to throw their shield over the "Evening News." I desire in this matter to try and administer my duty fairly without any regard to what particular newspapers may happen to say about me and my colleagues. Is it seriously suggested that the Government is likely to have a particularly tender spot in its heart for the particular class of which the "Evening News" is one? That is one of the arguments used in this Debate which makes me so surprised that so acute and astute a journalist as looks after the "Globe" should have his case looked after by so innocent and even childlike an intelligence as is indicated—

Let me deal with the case of the "Evening News." There is a certain inconvenience, as a general rule, in discussing at length whether legal proceedings might be taken against a newspaper when they might be still under contemplation. I think I had better begin by saying that after having very carefully considered this case, not by myself but with others concerned we came to the conclusion that there was a real difference, and I will tell the House what it is. In the first place the "Evening News" never claimed to be the author of this piece of news. The author is the paper suppressed. It boasted that it was the author, and I think it is right that we should strike at the paper that claimed the credit of being the author. In the second place the "Evening News," though it is true it published that statement, undoubtedly published any reference to the matter for the first time when it had had, what turned out to be, the misleading message of the Central News, and I have already explained that there is an explanation of the Central News which we thought it right to accept. The "'Evening News," whatever other sins may lie on its conscience in this matter, never decked out its statement with the suggestion that there was a quarrel and split between the Secretary of State for War and the Government of this country. It never suggested anything of the kind. The statement of the "Evening News" was in a future form. Perhaps my hon. Friend may think that a fine point though, I think, I can imagine him making a good deal of it if he wanted to do so. The statement of the "Evening News" was in the future form. It was in the form that they, in spite of official denial and contradiction, were confident that "Lord Kitchener will not return to the War Office." There are chances and changes about the future, whoever we may talk about, but I think it is a very different thing—and I greatly regret and reprobate the occurrence—to have made that statement in the circumstances I pointed out and in the way the "Globe" made it. Let me assure my hon. Friends, in so far as they are anxious that there shall be not less but more of this kind of business—let me assure all those whose criticism of the Government is not that they have been brutal, but that they have been mealy mouthed—let me give them my pledge, in the most explicit terms, with all the authority which I am entitled to exercise in this matter, that if we find from this time forward any paper, be it small or great, making a false statement so obviously prejudicial to our national interests as the "Globe" did, it shall be treated as the "Globe" was treated, whatever the paper may be. The position may, perhaps, be expressed in a quotation none the less familiar to many because it happens to be a classical quotation. It is expressed in the quotation of the Roman statesman Scipio on hearing of the death of Tiberius Gracchus:—

Now that the hon. Gentleman has got that explanation, I feel he will not need any further exposition of our attitude. I want to say one thing in conclusion. It is inevitable in a matter of this sort that there should be heat engendered, many hard words used, and sharp contradiction expressed. That is quite inevitable. But I hope the House of Commons will agree with me when I say that even about a matter of this sort we

* "So perish all that in such crimes engage."

[ Homer's Odyssey, i. 47.]

must try to preserve, all of us in our own minds, what are the more important as opposed to the less important considerations. Let me point out what I regard as the most important consideration. It is to preserve, in the true sense of the term, the priceless doctrine, not merely as a doctrine but as a practice, of the proper liberty of the Press. Nobody can, or does, say that this Government, in so far as the Press has been concerned, has shown undue severity. The criticism has constantly been made, whether ill founded or well founded, that the Government might in the public interest very properly show more severity. If that criticism proceeds from people who think that newspaper criticism, and even newspaper speculation, should be suppressed while we are at war, I do not agree with the criticism one bit. Nobody who fairly examines the administration of my Department, or of other departments concerned with newspapers, can say, with anything approaching fairness, that before this case we have erred because we have been too severe on newspapers. I desire to maintain from beginning to end, one of the things which the hon. Gentleman suggested at the close of his speech has always been regarded as one of our most important characteristics—namely, the right of newspapers to exercise a wide discretion in publishing criticisms and furnishing information upon all sorts of subjects.

I am speaking for the whole Government and with the authority of the whole Government, and I am only repeating, in feebler words, what was said by the head of the Government a very short time ago. Let me tell the hon. Gentleman, and the House, there is no member of the Cabinet who desires that the policy of the Government should be anything but what was explained in this House by the Prime Minister. That, I agree, is a great principle. But do let us distinguish between squabbles about the precise moment at which a particular piece of news appeared in this newspaper and the enormously important question whether our national interests are not being vitally prejudiced, unless it is shown clearly by the action of the Government, taken without a moment's delay, what is the truth as to what is being rumoured, asserted, and telegraphed all over the world. The "Globe" claims to be, and I believe its proprietor and editor believe it to be, a paper serving patriotic purposes. But in this matter it made a terrible mistake. It has a history for a longer time than any other evening paper. For my part, I have always found it a paper which is amusing to read, because it contains many things which have nothing to do with politics, and which are special features of the journal. Everybody regrets there should have been this blow struck against the paper, in view of its past record. But these circumstances cannot alter what is the right thing to do in a moment of crisis on behalf of the nation.

My last word is this. I am asked who is responsible. My hon. Friend thought that he had discovered some inconsistencies between the Prime Minister's words and what Major-General Sir Francis Lloyd was alleged by a correspondent or reporter of the "Daily Mail" to have said, as to what had really occurred. I understand there was a report in the "Daily Mail" in which Sir Francis Lloyd was said to have made some statement. For my part, I have nothing to do with what appeared in the "Daily Mail." It is very probable there may be some explanation of the particular form of words, or some misunderstanding. But the facts are these. On the Saturday afternoon—it was done with a good deal of expedition, but I do not think it was any the worse for that fact—after the "Globe" newspaper was on the streets, Major-General Sir Francis Lloyd, I, and other members of the Government concerned, with some of our civil authorities and advisers, met and decided upon the course of action to be taken. With regard to Sir Francis Lloyd, I much dislike introducing into the Debate the name of one who is necessarily not here in this House, but of course the Government and the Home Secretary have to answer for what is done. As a fact, Sir Francis Lloyd, as far as I know, was entirely of opinion it was the proper course to take.

But I really cannot tell the House, because I do not know, how the suggestion that this was the proper course exactly originated. The truth is, that when there has been so gross and flagrant a disregard both of the Government assertion and of national interests, it would not be difficult to find more people than one who at the same time considered there was a perfectly plain and obvious course to take. If Sir Francis Lloyd is understood to have said he decided on this course of action without consultation, that certainly is not an accurate statement, and, therefore, I cannot for a moment suppose that he said it. The matter was decided within the walls of the Home Office, necessarily in the presence of a number of people, and I thought it my duty, without a moment's delay, to give the police information, and have preparations made. I do not think the editor of the "Globe" himself ever disputed that the whole thing was carried out with the greatest neatness and dispatch. I am sorry to have taken up so long a time. I am entirely at one with hon. Gentlemen who say it is a most serious question. If anybody goes away from this Debate supposing, or if anyone after reading it supposes, the Government does not regard it as serious, I can assure them they are wholly mistaken. I have come to this conclusion: there was no other course which would adequately protect vital national interests at that moment, and I invite the House of Commons and the country to say, while we shall all be desirous of preserving the liberty of the Press, that it is possible in a moment of great national emergency for an individual newspaper to mistake the liberty of the Press for the most dangerous licence, and that it was absolutely necessary in this case, and at that moment, to do what we did, and to avow it openly and immediately, and then to ask for our justification from the House of Commons.

I do not suppose the House want to listen to any more on this subject, which has now occupied its attention for two full hours. But there are some things in regard to it which have not been, in my judgment, sufficiently dwelt upon. I have not risen either to. attack or to defend the "Globe" newspaper. I have risen to repeat criticisms on the action of the Government, in committing this outrage on the Press. Nothing that the right hon. Gentleman has said, in his speech of fifty minutes, has convinced me in the least that what has been done to the "Globe" newspaper has been justified. Neither his silver tongue nor his persuasive and eloquent manner, nor his dialectical skill have persuaded me in the least degree that this action against the "Globe" newspaper was not an unjustifiable outrage. When I read the story in my Monday morning's paper I rubbed my eyes and asked, "Am I in England or in Deutschland?"

I have no doubt my hon. and learned Friend has had some experience of this sort of thing. I am very well aware, from long experience, of the risks and inconveniences to which editors are always exposed. I know how they are subject to receive threats, and occasional visitors with a horsewhip, but, in spite of that, I never believed that I should live to see an office of a great London newspaper of old standing in the principal street of the Metropolis forcibly entered by a body of police, its machinery stopped, its property confiscated, and its publication suspended. I never believed that that could occur at this day, and certainly not when we had a Liberal Home Secretary and a Liberal Prime Minister. We live in a free country. [An HON. MEMBER: "NO, we do not!"] At any rate, we profess that we do. We live under the law, and the Courts are open to those who break the law. Why cannot we go to a Court of Law to try this business if anybody has offended?

The right hon. Gentleman said that this was the only course to take. I will tell him another course the Government might have taken. They might have issued just a few hours earlier the statement they did issue, namely, that the Secretary of State for War had gone to the East on a mission for the Government and in order to arrange matters, military or political, there—I do not remember the exact form of the communication. If that had been done then and there, the "Globe" would have published it, and would not have fallen into the error, as I think it to be, of republishing the statement which they made and which had been denied. In a question I put to the right hon. Gentleman two days ago I tried to suggest that this matter might have been dealt with by warning and prosecution. His answer was only a cheap appeal for the cheers of superficial patriots, which, of course, he very easily got. I was much disturbed, and I do not wonder that others were disturbed, by the violent suppression of the "Globe" newspaper, and not only by that, but by the defence which the Government has made of it both to-day and elsewhere; and, perhaps, even more by the sort of wide approval of the Government action in this House and outside it. Even my Radical Friends and colleagues, many of whom I thought I might rely upon to uphold the principles of liberty, have said, "Oh, the only mistake is that you did not proceed against half a dozen more papers!" I hope the day is not past when we shall consider that the freedom of the Press is a precious possession to defend. The "Manchester Guardian," which has been quoted in this Debate and which is an indispensable part of my breakfast every day, pointed out that— in camera. I want to know what is the good of holding these trials in camera? The public are never told the things that are condemned, and therefore cannot be deterred from repeating them. I hope that no one here will suppose that I have any sympathy with the political opinions of the "Globe," nor indeed with their methods or tone, but I must say I think the Prime Minister went a little too far at the Guildhall when he said that this mistake of the "Globe" was matter, lest Mr. Deputy-Speaker should call me to order. In the very same paper we were told that a distinguished Member of this House had been denied a platform, I think it was in the town of Oldham, where he wanted to express his political sentiments. I am happy to say he found a refuge and asylum in my Constituency, where he was listened to with gratitude. I mention that in order to show how our liberties are disappearing. I want to put to the House this question— cui bono? What are we fighting for, if we are to jettison all our liberties one by one; first, the freedom of the Press, then the freedom of the platform, then open courts of justice, next trial by jury, next by the censorship of news and opinions by a Government that never appreciates the blessed light of publicity. If we are getting rid of all these liberties one by one, I do not know for what we are fighting. I thought the whole object of this War was to preserve those liberties. I ask, is it for this we are sacrificing the flower of England's manhood; is it for this we are squandering the nation's resources, the stored comforts of her people, and the garnered products of her industry? I want to know how much better off we should be, even if we went to War, if we Germanise our institutions? What shall it profit us if we gain the whole victory and lose the prize we are fighting for?

( indistinctly heard ): I have been for some time quite a silent spectator of the effervescence which sometimes prevails in that corner [ pointing to the Ministerial Back Bench below the Gangway ]. I have often wondered what is the cause of it. I should like to ask, How is it that the London Members are not up in arms? I believe there are about eighty of them. Is it that they are at the front, or is it, on the other hand, that they take a calmer view than is taken in Edinburgh or Glasgow? I heard with great admiration the very able speeches of the two hon. Members (Mr. Hogge and Mr. Pringle). The attitude which they take is to me incomprehensible. Here is a Government conducting a war. If they have not confidence in the Government, why do they not put down a Motion of want of confidence in the Government? I had no special reasons for supporting one Government more than another. I only want the War vigorously and well conducted. But if you are living in some atmosphere of suspicion, such as the hon. Members opposite seemed to suggest, there is good ground for it. It ought, in my opinion, to be dealt with not by hints and innuendoes, but plain men like myself, who have not their ears to the telephones in the Lobby, or who have not those accesses to sources of information which hon. Members opposite have, should know openly what it is that is stirring up and effervescing in that corner, and what is the reason for it. I never heard the hon. Gentleman (Sir W. Byles) speak better. I have been wondering at all this indignation about London and the suppression of London newspapers. It was well said, I think, that a fire in the Strand is of more importance than a burning mountain in China, but surely Ireland is part of the British Empire.

I do not say the hon. Gentleman does, but in regard to this matter he seems to know very little about it, because he says the first attack on the liberty of the Press was made at Salford. Will the House believe that the Government have, within the last twelve months, seized and suppressed, body and bones, type and printing presses, three newspapers in Ireland, without any word of protest either from Scotland or from Salford!

Not at all. On the contrary, the only person to be found to protest against it was the hon. Member (Mr. Ginnell). What I want to put is this: The Irish have been struggling for liberty for 700 years. The moment this War begins, because a number of our countrymen are still smarting under these ancient grievances, the moment these newspapers come forward and remind men of '98 or '48 or 1641, down comes the heavy foot of the Press Censor and breaks up their type. Is there a word of complaint from the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) or the hon. Member (Mr. Pringle)?

Oh, but it is too late now. There is one hon. Member opposite I should at least have expected a word of protest from, and that is the hon. Member (Mr. Booth), because the chief of these papers was the organ of Mr. Larkin, which kept our city in turmoil for two years with English gold and English food ships coming in, and how did they repay you—the men you fed in this way with your gold and your food? This organ of the friends of the hon. Member (Mr. Booth), who alone tried to brigade opinion in favour of Germany in this War, is suppressed, and they give the names. I sympathise with the "Globe" newspaper, but I thought the Home Secretary made an absolutely complete reply. What is more, I think he made a handsome offer to the "Globe" newspaper when he said, "Let the people of the 'Globe' newspaper publish an expression of regret and apology, and they can start again in the morning." I think that is a handsome offer. Did you make that offer to the Irish newspapers? Not a bit of it! You have their type in Dublin Castle in what the printers call "pie." All this indignation about the "Globe" because it is a London paper! I sympathise with the London papers. I sympathise equally with the Dublin papers. Let me give a list of what has been happening in Ireland without the Scottish breast evacuating one grain of indignation. The first paper which was seized—I take these records from the OFFICIAL REPORT—was a paper called "Irish Freedom." That was a catching title. It was largely read in the country, and was filled with Irish ballads and Irish legends. "Irish Freedom" was suppressed by way of a Christmas box in December, 1914. Where was the hon. Member (Mr. Pringle) or the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge)? Not one word! Ten long months have passed away and that bursting indignation has managed to suppress itself all this time and to reserve itself solely for the "Globe" newspaper when it tells a shocking lie. I have been fighting the present Prime Minister. I have fought him hard on the Home Rule question, and I have fought him on the finance question. I do not think I ever spoke to him three minutes in my whole life, but I heard with positive indignation the fact to-night, for the first time—because I think he spoke of the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) as a man of ability and a lawyer—

The hon. Member is better than many lawyers. I was convinced that there was something in what he was saying. What happened? Here we are conducting unitedly a great war, and the Irish people, who have been divided for centuries, for the first time are coming to your side, though their soldiers are boycotted in your dispatches and in your newspapers, and a man with the reputation of the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) gets up and says, in the presence of us poor, ignorant Irishmen, who know nothing of Cabinet secrets, "I do not believe the word of the Prime Minister!" That will be in Berlin in the morning. Certainly I am not ashamed, as an Irishman, to say that the spectacle of the Prime Minister of this Empire, standing at that box, and having to contradict with indignation the imputation on his personal veracity, caused me intense pain. I wish to express to the Prime Minister—I hope it will be conveyed to him—that one man, who has been his opponent and has at times been his enemy, fully accepts his word in this matter. I will say, furthermore, that I have watched him with criticism and I have watched him with attention, and I have never yet known him to tell a falsehood or anything approaching it. I do not golf or lunch with Cabinet Ministers.

But I want to get on with this list. A few days after they suppressed "Irish Freedom" they suppressed the "Irish. Worker." The "Irish Worker" represented to an extraordinary extent the trade union class. It represented, above all, a class which at one time was absolutely oppressed, namely, the transport workers, the poor men along the quays who were only getting 15s. a. week and on whose behalf Larkin—I will give him this credit—succeeded in raising the wages to £1 1s. per week. I do not think I ever saw two copies of that paper. For whatever reason, the fact remains that Gentlemen on that side of the House accepted the suppression of the "Irish Worker" and never asked a question or said one word about it. One would have thought that from the Labour party there would have been something said about that suppression of the "Irish Worker." No, Sir, it was an Irish paper, and any tyranny is good enough in Ireland. I suppose the paper must have changed its name, and that they thought that by leaving out the word "Irish" they would commend themselves to the British Government. So they started a paper and called it the "Worker" pure and simple, without any such rebellious adjective as "Irish" affixed. The "Worker" was seized on the 5th February. Not one word of protest came from hon. Gentlemen opposite, but the moment a London paper is seized my hon. Friend opposite asks, "What are we fighting for"? Remember that these men who are attacking the Government to-day about this London newspaper are Scottish Members, while we Irish Members, smarting under ten times their grievances, have remained silent in support of His Majesty's Government.

I think that when we are discussing a Vote of £400,000,000 it is not the suppression of the "Globe" newspaper that we ought to talk about. It was with great difficulty that I restrained myself for months back from bringing forward the question of the slaughter of some of our regiments in Gallipoli, and the conduct of the general who did not lead them to their death. Why did I remain silent? Why have we borne the reproaches and complaints of our own people in regard to this matter? Why have we, who have been the outlaws of this House for thirty years, for the first time remained silent and remained in unison, while you are conducting this great campaign abroad? We have remained silent, with our ancient wrongs, our stored memories, and, I think, our devotion to our country. How is it that you—[hon. Members opposite]—in this awful time can find no better topic for your oratory than sneers at the men who are conducting the civil side of your warfare? If these men are not right, change them. Why is it that I am supporting them? They are my trustees. I support them as the trustees of the country in this matter, and if they are to be attacked it should not be by secret innuendo. I do not understand it. If there is some secret matter going on, some yeasting fermentation that is sending up a miasma dangerous to our interests, I say let the pure wind of debate sweep it aside. It is not a case for innuendo. It is not a case for sneers. Our position is too solemn; our position, I may say, speaking for Ireland, is too sacred for that. This is the first time in your history when the Irish arm has come boldly and unflinchingly to your side. We have our doubts continually—and no wonder, when we hear English Members and Scottish Members against whom the charge of disloyalty has never been brought—as to what is going on. I personally am unaware of it. If this great suppression of the truth, of which we hear so much, exists, what is the secret behind it? Why cannot we be told?

The Prime Minister of England gets up at that box to-day to contradict the charge made against him, and an hon. Member—in a House where we are all bound to accept one another's words and believe in one another's honour—a supporter of the Government, a supporter of the Prime Minister—which I never was and which I am not now except for the term of this War—refuses the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman who is leading the Opposition to accept the disclaimer made by the Prime Minister. He fails to respond to that ordinary courtesy of debate. That shows a serious and terrible state of affairs. In the interests of the three Kingdoms, if there be these clouded imaginings, if there be reality in this state of mental distress which hon. Members opposite struggle to express, I think their true course is to come down as constitutional statesmen and make their Motion of want of confidence in the Government. For my part I will listen to their indictment and I will vote on it independently. If as a juror they convince me that these men should be hurled from power and others should take their place—I do not see from what corner—then they will have, I am sure, the support of the impartial judgment of the House. If, on the other hand, there be nothing in all these things; if they be, as I think the Home Secretary has proved, nothing but small, miserable pin-prickings, due largely to the uneasiness which has been naturally generated in the minds of men by this War, then I say, and I say it for the first time, take pattern from the disloyal Irish. We have seen our countrymen slaughtered; we have seen them, as I have said and as we think, boycotted in dispatches, but because we believe that it is only by the closely compacted union of these Kingdoms that victory can be achieved we, the pariahs and the rapparees of the House of Commons, think that in the verdict of history our position will be considered as even more worthy than that of those whose voices are more clamant.

I do not propose to intervene for more than five minutes in the course of this discussion, but to my mind it would not be fair to the right hon. Gentleman who has borne the brunt of the discussion that no Member on this side who is familiar with legal questions and administration should rise to say a few words on so grave a matter as the alleged capricious interference with a principle which we all value. That is, the liberty of the Press. For that reason, only in a few sentences, I desire to express my views, not from a momentary consideration, but from some detailed consideration of the matter. I have considered it before I came here. I have heard the whole Debate, except three or four sentences of my hon. Friend the Member for Salford—and I heard the substance of his speech also. I approach this matter with a sincere appreciation of the value of the Press, which arises from association for many years with its labours. I approach it also from the point of view of a man who has spent most of his manhood in endeavouring to help in the understanding and administration of the laws, and also of that of a man who in a later period, in such Parliamentary career as I have had, has found himself unexpectedly from time to time supporting old political antagonists. I have no predilections in favour of shutting down a newspaper, but I have to remember that there is a greater principle than the liberty of the Press. That is the safety of the people.

Approaching the matter from these two points of view, the question arises: What policy was the right hon. Gentleman carrying out? It was a policy as to which this House, by the Defence of the Realm Act, and by the Defence of the Realm Regulations which were entrusted to the right hon. Gentleman to be administered, declared that a man who publishes in the Press any false statement prejudicial in the opinion of the Government to the safety of the country or the wellbeing of the Country in the present military operations in this time of crisis, shall be liable to have his publication suppressed and his machinery seized. The right hon. Gentleman had that power, and this House entrusted it to him. Last Saturday the right hon. Gentleman had to consider whether he would exercise it. He has told us the facts, and my judgment on the facts is that if the right hon. Gentleman had not taken the most significant step which he could take to put an end to that statement so capable of mischief to the interests of the country, I would have regarded the right hon. Gentleman as having betrayed the trust that was reposed in him.

If he had just made a simple statement of the actual truth, that would have put an end to it.

A statement of the actual truth! To our shame we have heard the Prime Minister of England, a man who has spent most of his life in the public service—and during my political life I have been his steadfast antagonist—we have heard him at that box stating the simple truth, and a Member of the House of Commons has sat in his place, after having accused him of falsehood, and has not withdrawn that accusation, and we are asked to publish the simple truth! We are in a state of war, and if the Home Secretary has not the courage, when vital public interests are assailed, in the face of the enemy to tell the world that the Government is not a discredited Government, and that its Minister who has gone abroad is not a discredited representative of the country, if he has not the courage to do that by the strongest means in his power, then we ought to have a man who has. There is one thing which I want to say. I think that there was substance in the complaint that in past times His Majesty's Government failed to exercise these powers with which Parliament entrusted them, and if there is any case for criticism which has been heard, it is a criticism which expresses a public view very generally heard that His Majesty's Government was entitled, months ago, to exercise these very same powers in order to put an end conclusively and decisively to a course of virulent attack upon the Government which has prejudiced the country right through the hostile world, and has made the position of the Government doubtful among some of our friends. If the right hon. Gentleman finds the same explicit cause of action in any of the cases which have been referred to, whatever may happen in any section of this House, it is my conviction that throughout the country vigorous and courageous action will be hailed with satisfaction.

After listening to two speeches in succession defending the action of the Home Secretary and the Government in this matter, and having heard the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) from among the Irish Members, and of the right hon. and learned Member for Exeter (Mr. Duke), who has always been an opponent of the Prime Minister, I, as one who has always been a supporter of the Prime Minister, and still am a supporter of the Prime Minister, desire to say that, Liberal as I am, I think that no other course was open to the Government than the action that was taken with regard to the "Globe" newspaper. I have listened to the whole of this Debate. I knew very little about the action which had been taken by the Government except what appeared in the Press until I heard the Debate. I did happen to observe what had been done in regard to Irish newspapers, and I repeat what the hon. and learned Member for Cork has said, that I am a little surprised at all this indignation being shown when an English newspaper is attacked when none of it was forth-coming when Irish newspapers were treated in the same way.

I do not suggest that any Liberal Member of this House likes to have the Government engaged in suppressing the free expression of opinion in this House, but I do complain that my hon. Friends who have raised the question here to-night seem to show no real appreciation of the gravity of the situation in which the nation is placed, or the impossibility of alternative action by the Government to that which they have taken. What was the position? A false statement was made by the "Globe" newspaper. It was an absolutely false statement. It is not true, though the hon. Member for Edinburgh has not yet withdrawn that statement which he made, and I think that the whole House regrets that the hon. Member has not risen in his place to withdraw the statement which he made. But I accept absolutely that the "Globe" newspaper had made a false statement. That statement was calculated to damage us most seriously with our Allies and with neutral nations throughout the whole world. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I do not see how anyone can doubt it.

Once a falsehood is set going it takes a long time for the truth to overtake it, especially when there are enemies interested in spreading the falsehood to their own profit. But a falsehood had been told which was calculated to damage us immeasurably in a most critical situation, and it was absolutely necessary to counteract that falsehood, and the injury that was being done. What possible action was there for the Government to take but there and then to shut down the author for falsehood? I see no other action open to them, and I complain of my hon. Friends that though they are ready to trust the Government with the interests of the people of this country, with the conduct of the War, with the lives of the people of the country, yet they have not enough confidence in the discretion of the Government, or in the liberalism of the Prime Minister, and of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, to believe that they have not made a gross misuse of their powers in regard to this newspaper. It was absolutely necessary that action should be immediate. The process of law which they talk about is no remedy at all. The mischief was being done, an instant remedy had to be devised, and we have a right to expect from our Government whom we have entrusted with great powers that they should exercise those powers fearlessly and instantly when the mischief is being done. I think the Government did that.

I hate suppressing a newspaper, or suppressing opinion, and I do the Government the justice to believe that they hate it quite as much as my hon. Friend, but I do say that it was a moment of instant necessity for action. Action was taken, and I say that, while we are entrusting the Government with such immense responsibilities and powers in this War, we cannot refuse them this power of temporarily preventing the spread of falsehood at the very time when the spreading of falsehood can do infinite mischief. I use the word "temporarily," and perhaps the "Globe" could be released from the restraint the moment the foreign situation is so clear that it can be done. It is a grave step for a newspaper to defy the Executive Government, and to defy it to the extent of contradicting its spoken words, and insisting upon and going on with that denial in spite of the appeal of the Censor. I speak as a Liberal, and I speak with infinite regret that such a measure is necessary; but I think myself that no true patriot could take the line of the "Globe," spreading a false rumour after denial of it by the Government in this House. We must trust the Government in these matters, and certainly I do not think there has been any case of misuse of its power, nor that there was any other remedy open to the Government and the right hon. Gentleman.

Serbia

I want to ask the very special indulgence of the House to-night for two reasons: first of all, because, as some hon. Members know, what I have to say ought to have been said last night, and a not over well-cooked dish is none the better for being warmed up. Moreover, I fear I have some few things to say, not I hope in an intemperate spirit, certainly in no captious or unfair spirit, which must be somewhat ungrateful to the ears of many whose friendship I value, and whom certainly charged as they are with the conduct of great affairs, I would not rashly seek to impune. The matter to which I wish to direct the few remarks I have to make is one which vitally affects our national honour. I want to express a doubt of which I cannot rid my own mind, and which I know exists in the minds of a great many other people, whether we are, in point of fact, doing, not something, not even a great deal, but everything we possibly can for the smallest, most unfortunate, and most heroic of all our Allies, Serbia. We have had some very reassuring statements, so far as words go, within the last week or so, from Members of the Government. For example, on Tuesday last the Prime Minister put on record very striking words. He said:—

The only doubt which enters one's mind when one reads that sonorous phrase is whether in Serbia, in the future, there will be any Serbians left. On Tuesday last the Foreign Secretary assured us that he stood by his previous utterances, and he was apparently very indignant that anyone should suggest that there has been any hesitation or delay in the matter of rendering assistance to Serbia. I want to make it perfectly clear that, so far as I am concerned, I do not doubt for one moment the sincerity of the statements of those members of the Government, and still less do I for one moment impugn their personal honour. But I confess that I sometimes weary of the intense respectability of British statesmen. A little more than one hundred years ago France was going through a time of trial and peril comparable, in some ways, to that which she and we are going through now. At that time the Prussian and Austrian armies crossed her frontier; the levies of the Republic were ragged, ill-armed and ill-disciplined, and the fate of France seemed to be sealed. Three men saved her—Danton, Robespierre, and Carnot. They were men with whom, I think, men like the light hon. Gentleman would not probably have agreed; but I have sometimes wished that a little of the spirit of those three men could enter into our Ministers who are rightly careful of their private reputation as English gentlemen and of their public reputation for consistency, prudence, and so on. But I could sometimes wish that they could remember the words of Danton: "Que mon nom soit flétri pourvu que la France soit libre." I could sometimes wish that they thought a little less of private worth and a little more of public valour.

I think one can say with perfect truth that if the intentions of the Government seemed to be in doubt in this matter, it is really somewhat the fault of right hon. Gentlemen. There was a long interval between the speeches of last week, to which I have referred, and the speech of the Foreign Secretary on the 24th September. In the meantime some very disquieting incidents occurred. There was, in the first place, something which the Foreign Secretary did not allude to last Tuesday, when he spoke on this subject, and that was the speech of Lord Lansdowne in another place. I do not know what the real meaning of Lord Lansdowne's speech was, but I know the effect which it produced on my mind and on the minds of a great many other people. To put it in crude language, and language which the Noble Lord would certainly not have used, the impression left on my mind by that speech was that it was not the intention of the Government any longer to send any relief whatever to our Serbian Allies. I do not know what happened in the interval to account for that except one thing, and that, no doubt, of very prime and tragic importance, namely, the resignation of M. Venizelos, which occurred on, I think, the 4th October. That was a very important and tragic fact; but can we really put all the blame of what happened afterwards upon Greece? Is it really fair? Did we really carry out altogether our side of the bargain? Was the resignation of M. Venizelos in the first place a contingency so remote that it was one against which the British Government need not provide? I must say, badly as the present Government of Greece have behaved towards Serbia, I cannot help having certain sympathy with them. Both the Greek people and Government are in an extraordinarily difficult position. It is a small country, with a small population, ravaged quite recently by two great wars. I can well understand under those circumstances that they should not be very eager to enter on fresh military operations without very real guarantees as to the future, not merely paper guarantees. As I understand the matter from what the Prime Minister told us, M. Venizelos asked this Government and France for 150,000 men, and that in common with the French Government we promised—and the Foreign Secretary will, I hope, correct me if I am wrong—to send them.

What did we actually do? I have not access to any special information. I can only go by what appears in the Press and by what one can gather from the newspapers. It appears that what we actually did to carry out that promise was to send the remnants of the 10th Division, in all about 13,000 men, and at the same time to make to Greece an offer of the Island of Cyprus. As was said last week, it is perfectly clear that what Greece wanted was not offers of an extension of territory but effective forces to make her position secure in what she already had, to say nothing of the future. With the desire to be more than fair to His Majesty's Government, and with no particularly friendly or cordial feelings towards the present Greek administration, I must say I am not astonished that Greece did not hurry to the support of a Power and to become the ally of a Power which showed itself so little careful of the interests of the Allies it already had. There was, in the second place, a fact to which I shall refer again in a slightly different connection, that for whatever reason that small force which was landed in Salonika of about 13,000 men was not allowed, as I understand, to leave Salonika for the Serbo-Greek frontier for many weeks afterwards. I am not attempting to judge that. There may have been most excellent military reasons for it. I do not pretend to know, but the Prime Minister told us that you cannot determine questions of this kind solely by naval and military considerations. In the meantime, let us realise what the position was. Daily and hourly the Serbians were looking for the help which they expected from the French and the English. So confident were they that I am told that in some places the peasants came out and strewed flowers in the way along the road by which the British troops were expected to arrive. Those troops, largely composed—and I feel this all the more keenly for this reason—of Irishmen of the gallant 10th Division from the Dardanelles were, as my hon. Friend told the House last week, being kept in Salonika, the sport of all the riff-raff of that town, exposed to their flouts and jeers, while about the same time Lord Lansdowne here at home in another place, gets up to wring his hands and to tell us that Serbian resistance cannot be indefinitely prolonged, and that he thinks it is too late to do anything. I am thankful to think that, though Lord Lansdowne thought that several weeks ago, the Government now appear to consider that it is not too late.

With all desire to be fair to the Government I really cannot understand how it is possible for them to say that there has been no delay or hesitation. If it was too late when Lord Lansdowne made his statesment, it is very difficult to understand how it can be in time now. If it is not too late now it is extraordinary difficult to understand how it could have been too late then. For my own part I am perfectly certain it was never too late if, when M. Venizelos made his request we had taker effective steps to send even a very muck smaller force than we have now, I understand, made arrangements to send. There has been nothing either new or unexpected in the developments of the last few weeks. Let me just call the attention of the House to what occurred in the French Chamber on the 14th October. On that day Mr. Painlevé, Chairman of the Foreign Affairs, Navy, and Army Committees made as speech from which this is an extract:— I see that at the end it is stated that these considerations and conclusions, which were conveyed to the President of the Republic and to the French Minister on the 27th August, represented the attention and deliberations of two months. Therefore that takes us back to some time in June. It is perhaps not altogether not without interest to us here to notice that M. Viviani, who replied for the Government in the French Chamber, made exactly the sort of statement to which we are accustomed from Ministers in this House. He expressed himself as delighted to give all possible information, but he pleaded as usual, and quite properly, military exigencies, and he more than hinted that a frank statement was impossible owing to the susceptibilities of the Allies of France. It is rather curious that in whatever Chamber the representatives of the people address their complaints or inquiries to Ministers, they are always met in the same way, by the suggestion that a perfectly frank statement could be forthcoming if it were not for the third party round the corner, who is understood to be imposing a bar upon any such statement.

Two things are only too abundantly clear: in the first place, that months ago the coming peril was known—I cannot conceive that what was known to the Committee of Foreign Affairs in the French Chamber was not known to His Majesty's Government here—and, in the second place, that no adequate steps were taken to meet it. For the initial error undoubtedly France must share the blame with us, but in the past weeks she has most nobly redeemed that initial mistake. Though the invader is still upon her sacred soil, though it is fairly notorious that everywhere the French line is more thinly held than ours, though French interests in the Balkans and the Near East generally are, to say the least of it, not greater than ours, yet when the crisis arrived France appears to have acted as far as I have been able to see—of course I have not access to any official papers—with a decision, generosity, vigour and chivalry which, I am sorry to say, I find rather lacking on the part of this country. It is more than a month since the newspapers told us that an Anglo-French force had landed at Salonika, and we people who know nothing naturally supposed that when it was stated that that force was engaged it was in part composed of British troops. Only the other day did it dawn upon us that that was not the case. I think it was only yesterday made public that it was not until the 26th October, nearly a month after the small British force was landed at Salonika, General Mahon's Division was permitted to advance beyond the Greek frontier. Though it was not so stated in so many words, I am rather afraid that one must take it from a reply given by the Under-Secretary for War a week or two ago that the Commander of that force was not given a free hand. The hon. Member for Peterborough asked specifically whether General Mahon had been given a free hand to deal with the situation as it might arise, and I notice that the Under-Secretary in his reply merely stated that General Mahon's orders were to co-operate with our French Allies. I draw my own conclusions, which I think are fairly obvious.

It may be that all that is to be altered. I hope it is. I hope, at least, that that is no longer the case, because a more foolish and dangerous state of things it is almost impossible to imagine. I take it that our Forces are now really co-operating with the French Forces in the Balkans, that our men are fighting alongside their French colleagues, that they are in a position to afford them real aid, if need should be, and that there is a very clear and cordial understanding between the French and British commands. I hope hon. Members will not think that I have spoken improperly of these matters. I think they are questions that have to be put, and that they are matters on which the House of Commons have a right to be informed. I do not press for any revelation of details of military operations which could be of any advantage to the enemy. But these are matters in which our people naturally and rightly take a very deep interest. I confess I was very much alarmed when I realised what the position was, and that General Serrail's Force, if they were in difficulties, might rot have received from our Force that assistance which they have a right to expect. That I take it is no longer the case. I will not dwell on that point, because it is a matter of the greatest possible delicacy. I do not suppose that any graver issue could possibly arise than anything that might impair our good relations with France. I wish I could be equally sure that the tremendous importance of that issue had always been present to the minds of all the members of the Government.

There is one more thing I wish to mention, again by way of criticism, and not by way of recrimination, because it is necessary we should consider it if we are to appreciate our responsibilities in this matter at their true value. It has been for some time past a very open secret that a long time ago Serbia drew the attention of the Allies to the menacing attitude of Bulgaria. At that time, as everyone knows, her army had been resting; had been refitted and refreshed, and was in thoroughly good fighting trim. The Austrians and Germans were not in a position to attack. Serbia proposed to forestall that attack by striking first. I suppose at that time we had not quite abandoned the idea of making friends with Bulgaria. I am not forgetful of all the circumstances, but I do not think there can be very much doubt that our influence was used to dissuade Serbia from taking the step suggested. I noticed that yesterday the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs explained the character of the reply which was returned by the Foreign Office to the Serbian Government. It was based, if I understood the hon. Gentleman rightly, on certain political and diplomatic considerations. The Foreign Secretary very properly—if I may say so—disclaimed any intention or desire of advising upon the military or strategical position. I have no doubt whatever that such a reply was perfectly correct technically, but I am afraid there cannot be very much doubt that the impression left—and I say this with some ground for my belief—upon the Serbian Government was that this country did not wish her to make that move.

That being so, and seeing what has happened since, I think it is quite plain how greatly this aggravates our responsibility—a responsibility, God knows, already heavy enough. If, after all this, we were really to say that the suffering of Serbia was no affair of ours, it would, in the memorable words which the Foreign Secretary himself used in another connection, be "a disgrace from which the good name of this country would never recover." We all know when these words were spoken. In the case of Belgium we could not be said to be to blame. The German attack was in tremendous force. It was very sudden. We were unprepared, and, I think, rightly unprepared, because of our wishes and intentions for peace. This is quite another story. Here is another small nation menaced in exactly the same way—in some things, perhaps, even worse. We have been at war for fifteen months. We have made every kind of military preparation. We have raised great Armies. Our Fleet is supreme upon all the seas. We have had, as I have shown—and as others have shown very much more forcibly—ample warning over and over again that that which has happened would happen. It may be that I am forcing an open door. I hope it is so.

The recent declaration of the Government—so far as words go—is everything one could desire. But nothing can, unfortunately, undo in one's mind the impression of all those weeks when, so far as the ordinary person could see, very little was being done. The language used by Lord Lansdowne certainly gave us the impression that the Government, to say the least of it, were hesitating whether, after all, they really either could or wished to send any effective help at all. This is a matter upon which I hoped the Government had made up their minds to act with courage and loyalty. The Serbians, themselves, tell us it is not too late. Our fighting forces are not lacking in determination or courage. The people are united. The only hesitation that one can see involves the Government and the higher commands. I pray that that may not be so, and that we may be able, even now, by military action, if possible, to save from destruction the main Serbian Army, and that it may be possible to preserve, at least, a little corner of that country from destruction, so that out of it may grow that great future for Serbia of which the Prime Minister had a vision. Should it prove otherwise, I have only one word to say. If we really will not, or even if we cannot, extend the needed help, in the name of decency do let us have no more rhetoric about saying the cause of small nations.

May I return to our Debate of yesterday? I should like to say a few words on the Eastern question, on the Eastern aspect of this War. But before I just touch upon that may I just for a moment touch on another matter, and say how I should like to associate myself with those speakers yesterday who asked that in the matter of thrift and economy a clear and decisive lead should be given by the Government. I remember not long ago the Government flooded the country with tracts on thrift and economy. I received envelopes full of these tracts. I wrote back to the hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench opposite who sent them, and said that if only the Government would give an order saying that no single person was to have more than so much meat and so much bread daily, the Government would do more for thrift and economy in a day than all their tracts would do in a year. We should put a stop to preaching and exhortation, and the Government really should give us a clear lead. I turn now to the question of the Near East, and the campaign in the Dardanelles. None of us have any information on the military situation, or can give any opinion upon it. But we know that the Prime Minister told us only the other day that the situation there was receiving the most careful and anxious consideration, not as an isolated thing but as part and parcel of the whole Eastern question. The right hon. Gentleman went on to tell us that meanwhile our troops there were holding up a force of no less than 200,000 Turks.

The first thing that comes to my mind is the pity of it that we should be fighting the Turks at all. All the reports from the Dardanelles tell us of the bravery of the Turks, and the clean, manly manner In which they fight. We all realise that in the British Army there is no spirit or bitterness against the Turks, as there is against the Germans in France. The Turk has still behind him the traditions of the old Crimean days. In connection with this I cannot help recalling a story once told to me by a doctor who in the days of the Russo-Turkish war went out with one of our first Red Cross units that were organised, I believe, by the Lord Shaftesbury of those days. The doctor told me on his return how the Turks came and said to him day after day: "When are you English coming to help us? You English lead us; our officers drive us." That was a great testimony from the soldiers of one nation to the officers of another. As I said, the old Crimean tradition still remains. When we were on the same ground fighting with the Turks and for the Turks, that brought home to the 60,000,000 Mahomedans in India how thoroughly we were with them. The pity of it is that to-day the Turkish soldier, instead of being led by British officers, is now being driven not only by his own officers, but by German officers as well. But there it is, and we have got to make the best of it. This is the point I should lite to make. Our Indian Mahomedans are educated enough and intelligent enough thoroughly to realise we have been driven into this War by the Turkish leaders themselves, and they can understand that in fighting them we are not fighting the Turkish nation, but, in reality, are fighting the Germans, and that on our success against the Germans depends the safety of India just as much as the safety of England. This is not the case though with all the wild and undisciplined tribesmen on the Indian borderland, nor is it the case with the uneducated masses in Afghanistan. The Ameer at Cabul is thoroughly loyal to his alliance with us, and he has preserved a strict neutrality throughout. But we must remember that he will have a very difficult task indeed to keep all his wild factions in order if they should get excited; and as to the border tribesmen, we know they have no one to keep them in order at all. Men like myself, who have spent their lives in the East, know well what an extraordinary wave of excitement spread over the whole of Asia from West to East in years gone by when the Turks defeated a small nation like the Greeks; and we can understand what a tremendous wave of excitement would go right across Asia now, should ever the report go round that the Turks had defeated the English and had driven them out from their attack on Constantinople. We have to think of all this.

The Under-Secretary of State for War told us the other day, and I was glad to hear it, that the amount of dysentery and sickness in the Gallipoli Peninsula had greatly decreased since the commencement of last month, and that is so far very satisfactory indeed. Though none of us can give an opinion on the military consideration, I say for my own part I cannot help expressing my hope that the responsible military authorities may not feel themselves constrained to recommend a policy of evacuation of the Dardanelles, which we have heard talked about more than once, and I for one hope that our Forces there may be able to continue to hold up the 200,000 Turks they are holding up at the present time, and that we may also be able at the same time to carry on the campaign in aid of the Serbians that we are now commencing, and which meets with such approval from everybody in this country.

We must remember how excited the border tribes are in India, as evidenced by their repeated attacks on the frontier, and my caution is that were further reports of Turkish successes to be spread about a general and simultaneous rising might be brought about throughout the whole borderland of India, as well as in Afghanistan. It might also be that it might easily spread to Persia as well. We see in the papers that the Persian Government, the Persian Mejliss, and a great many of the Persian tribesmen seem to be under the delusion that the Germans are coming out top, and the bands of armed robbers, under German leaders, who now dominate almost entirely the whole of Southern Persia, make a rising in Persia at the present time not quite such a harmless thing as it would have been at the commencement of the War. So far as we can gather from the papers, all the reports seem to tend to show that Persia is at any moment ready to join Germany, despite the recent warning we have heard was given to Persia by the Russian Minister at Teheran at the commencement of this month, and I may add that the recent appointment of a special Minister from Persia to Berlin shows how necessary that warning was. For these reasons, if I may make so bold, I say that I hope we may still be able to continue to hold up these 200,000 Turks at the Dardanelles, and I can only say from my own private opinion I hope we shall be strong enough to go on holding up the Germans in France and Flanders, and to send every man we can spare to help to sweep the Germans out of Serbia. I see no reason myself why a successful sweep in conjunction with our Allies in the East may not be one of the great dominating factors of the whole War.

I would like now to say a word about the Middle East, and to turn to what the Prime Minister told us of the campaign in Mesopotamia. I must say how pleased and gratified I was to hear the praise bestowed by the Prime Minister on the organisation and operations of the Mesopotamia field force. We have to remember that this force was dispatched from India under the direct orders of the Commander-in-Chief in India. It was composed entirely of units direct from India, both British and Indian, commanded by generals from India, and it was the officers from India who formed its staff. The words of the Prime Minister, which I think all should remember, were that in the whole course of the War there has not been a series of operations more carefully contrived, more brilliantly conducted, and with a better prospect of final success than this Mesopotamia campaign. Now that is high praise, and I should like to say to the Prime Minister how gratified will be not only the Mesopotamian Field Force, but the whole of the Indian Army at those words of his. The Prime Minister told us that this Force is within measurable distance at the present time of Bagdad, and we all hope I am sure the day may not be long delayed when that Force will not only be in possession of the city of Bagdad, but of the whole of the Bagdad province as well. There is one thing we have to remember, and that is that this Force may still have much fighting in front of it. This Force, although it has suffered tremendous hardships owing to the climate and heat, although it has attacked so gallantly the enemy's trenches and carried them by the bayonet, has not yet had to face exactly the same conditions of what we may call modern war-as the Indian troops which have been serving in France. This trench warfare is new to the Indian Army, and I should like to see some of the trained and experienced regiments of the Indian Army who have been serving in France transferred to Mesopotamia so that they might give their comrades there a wrinkle or two, if possible, in the manner of bomb throwing, hand-grenade work, trench mining, and all the devices and devilry of so-called modern trench warfare. We have heard from the officers coming home that some of the Indian troops suffered great losses in the late fighting in the last month or two owing to their want of proper knowledge of the throwing of hand grenades, and a supply of those hand grenades is, I think, a most important thing for the Mesopotamian Field Force in future. We all know the Mesopotamian Field Force is dependent solely and entirely on Indian supplies, but there has been no man appointed in India as yet as Minister of Munitions in the same way as in England to arrange for these supplies. Trench mortars, high explosive shells, and machine guns galore may all be required; by the Mesopotamian Field Force, and if they are properly supplied with these, I am sure they will be able to hold their own against any Turkish or German forces that may be sent against them. But in addition to munitions, they must have more men. We all welcomed the telegram which was lately received from India stating that recruiting is proceeding vigorously there, especially in the Punjab and the North-West, and that the entire country shows the keenest resolve to secure ultimate victory. Here Lord Derby has been appointed to stump the country, and form recruiting committees, but I have not yet heard that an Indian Lord Derby has come forward. I urge the necessity of a much closer connection between Indian regiments and the districts they are recruited from. In England we have our county regiments and county recruiting committees, and in the same manner I should like to see provincial regiments and provincial and district recruiting committees in India, and I trust something may be done in the way of forming them. The Indians know perfectly well that if we fail not only England but India also goes down, and therefore we should make every endeavour to get a full supply of men from India, just as is being done in Canada, Australia, and England. I hope the notables and leaders of public opinion in India will rise to the occasion and lend their aid to help recruiting in every possible way. I suggest that the Government nominate an influential Indian as director of recruiting in the same manner as Lord Derby has been appointed in England, and appoint recruiting committees throughout the country. Reinforcements may be necessary for Mesopotamia, and every endeavour should be made to have them ready. Not only men, but officers as well will be required, and I should like to see the Imperial Cadet Corps in India largely increased in numbers, and cadets gazetted as combatant officers, as is now being done from the Cadet College at Quetta. Mesopotamia itself is the prize the Sepoy is fighting for, and I hope to live to see the land on the Tigris and the Euphrates peopled in years to come by flourishing canal colonies, as in the Punjab, and this land will be the reward of the Indian soldiers who fought for it. We may yet see canal colonies on the Indus, the Tigris, the Euphrates and the Nile all joined together by one solid British link. I hope to see a line drawn from Cairo to the Cape in the South, and another line from Cairo through Bagdad, Ispahan, Kabul and Lhassa to the East, and all within this triangle brought within the sphere of our Eastern Empire.

I will not touch upon East Africa further than to say that the matter of increasing the strength of our Forces there is just as necessary as it is in Mesopotamia. We are glad to hear of the promised help from South Africa. The Cecil Rhodes ideal of a Cape to Cairo railway is just as strongly before us to-day as it was when the Germans refused to give us a right of way, and we now look to secure that right of way which has so long been denied us by Germany.

With regard to the Far East and China, I wish to refer to the British concession at Canton, a matter which I raised in the form of a question not long ago. On this British concession the British residents have been appealing for the removal of the German residents ever since the War began. The French have a similar concession, but they have no Germans on it, and our unfortunate Britishers have to quietly submit to the insults of Germans living in their midst, and we know well what those insults can be. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in reply to a question I put to him, said that so long as the Germans complied with the provisions of their lease we cannot turn them out by process of law. Good Heavens! are we at war with Germany, or at law with Germany. If British residents were on a German concession, do you suppose that they would be allowed to remain there for a day in war time? I asked the Foreign Secretary if there were any provisions by which the British Government could not expel alien enemies from British possessions in time of war, but no such convention could be mentioned. Personally, I hate a policy of timidity in war time. When we are at war, let us wage it by every means in our power. Timidity on our part means loss of prestige in China, and the Chinese necessarily say that the British are afraid of the Germans, and every Britisher in China has to hang his head in consequence. I appeal to the Government to again reconsider their action in this matter.

I am very glad that the House has had this opportunity of making a survey of the different aspects connected with the War. It is of the utmost importance that the House should have the power of criticising, and should so far as possible be kept fully informed. We are not very well informed, and we find it difficult to get opportunities of discussing these matters. I think the Debates of the last two days show that this House is fully aware of its great responsibility at a time like this, and I think the Government will be less embarrassed by Debates in this House if they give us full information, than if they leave us with a feeling of suspicion that we are being kept in the dark. Last week the Prime Minister urged us to use a proper sense of perspective. It is just that which I cannot help feeling is sometimes lacking in the way this War is regarded, that is a sense of perspective, and a sense of proportion. The reason why I have abstained from addressing this House for fifteen months on any subject connected with the War has been a feeling of my inability to cope in any way with a subject so colossal and a calamity so vast. One feels so small before it, and one hardly ventures to approach the subject at all. I do not think that people realise the magnitude of the calamity. Twelve nations are at war. It is quite unlike any situation that has ever presented itself before to this country or to any other country in the history of the world, and sometimes I think our vision is a little bit narrowed and we regard this question from a national and narrow point of view rather than from a broader perspective. If we are to have a proper sense of perspective and proportion, we must regard the whole of this great crisis from different angles, and if the angle from which I regard it is slightly different from that from which the majority of hon. Members in this House regard it, and if I bring forward certain criticisms and certain opinions, I know they will not suspect me of anything but a desire to do the best service I can do to my country. I think it is regrettable that the House is being kept very frequently in the dark. The effect of the censorship has been to prevent us from being able to appreciate good news. If you have a suspicion in the public mind that news is being withheld, the best of news will lose its value, and that is what has largely happened with regard to the Censorship. We are thirsting always for information with regard to our soldiers and sailors at the front. We want to hear more of them. We want to hear more of the actual events, and instead of that we are treated in the Press with such an unnecessary amount of the personalities with regard to our Cabinet Ministers. If we could read a little less of them and a little more of our soldiers we should be better satisfied. What is the situation as we find it? I am not one who is inclined to take the rather pessimistic note of panic which has been sounded rather frequently in this House and outside it. While I regard the situation as a whole as a portentous calamity, the magnitude of which we none of us can realise, at the same time I regard our own position relatively as by no means so bad as it is generally painted. To begin with, not nearly enough emphasis, either in this House, the Press, or the country, is laid on the achievements, of the Navy. What the Navy has done in this War in clearing the seas of the enemy's fleet, in allowing commerce to come to these shores unmolested, in safeguarding the French coast, and in putting the enemy's fleet practically out of action, is in itself a victory so great that nothing that can occur in the War can equal it. But because we cannot put it in headlines as having happened on a certain day at a certain place, the public is not really aware of it.

10.0 P.M.

On the land side we are fighting in France, we are fighting in Belgium, we are fighting in Africa, fighting in Egypt, fighting in Mesopotamia, fighting in Gallipoli, and now we are fighting in Serbia. I do not think anybody can say that this country has not done its full share in this War. At the same time I sometimes rather tremble when I see the length to which this country is extending its liabilities, and it often seems to me as if it were not as a result of some concerted plan, but by the sheer force of circumstances. That is not all. In the realm of finance we are making advances to our Allies to> the sum of £423,000,000. We are spending ourselves close upon £5,000,000 a day on the cost of the War. Each man, we are told, that goes out from this country to serve is costing the country £250 to £300, but not only that. His removal from this country adds to the prospect of economic dislocation at home because it deprives the country of his earning power. I think we ought to bear in mind, both those who are anxious for conscription and those who are adherents of voluntary service, that there is a limit to which this country must come in conducting this War by land, by sea, and by finance. I wonder if the Chancellor of the Exchequer can look into the future really with anything but the gravest apprehension, and whether the Government are really seeing what certain assets can be set off against these colossal liabilities. The financial position of this country is quite different from that of any other country. We are financing our Allies. We cannot go to them for money. We ourselves are depending on the outside for our food, while Russia produces a great deal more than she can consume, and France sufficient for her consumption. Therefore, everything depends upon our financial stability, and there is a recklessness and a want of forethought in the way in which people talk of our plunging in every direction and making further inroads upon the national purse.

Then there is the great fact which stares us in the face every day, the fact which the Censor cannot conceal, and which comes home to us in a most painful way. I refer to the Casualty Lists. Our casualties now to the beginning of October have reached half a million. It is all very well for people to say that if you are in for a great war you must have casualties. The casualties in this War are on an entirely different scale from that of any war before. The casualties in the Crimean War for all belligerents, Russia, Turkey, Great Britain, Sardinia, and France, can be all put together at 1,000,000 in two years. In this War, which has been raging for fifteen months, we do not know fully how many millions have fallen, but we know our own casualty list is now half a million. That in itself surely ought to give us thought, and when we know—not from reports in the newspapers, not from highly coloured accounts in the Press, but most of us from first-hand knowledge from friends and relations at the front—what the men are suffering, pain beyond human endurance, mental suffering enough to drive to madness, bodily torture, agony, and death, we cannot express fully our gratitude and our admiration. But it ought to give us thought. Human life is sacred, and when in this twentieth century it is being mown down in this manner, do not let us treat it as one of the inevitable consequences of war. Let us say, "This War has got beyond all bounds. Ought we not to pause and think exactly what it means?"

What is this modern warfare? It means two armies confronting each other at close quarters month after month, with fortunes fluctuating first one way and then the other. They are there day by day and the casualty lists—when we hear of no engagements—mounting up day by day without any hope of decisive victory. They are engaged in mutual annihilation. I say we ought to pause before we collect with drum and flag the flower of the youth of the country and send them out to this field of carnage. What more do you want the country to do? What other expedi- tions are going to be undertaken? Where are you leading us? What are your objects? Are you drifting? Sometimes one has a suspicion that that is so. Are you testing the powers of endurance of this country? You will find them illimitable, but woe betide the men who exploit these powers of endurance just for the sake of a passing triumph! I am tired of hearing the expressions about "winning the War," about "through terror to triumph," about "the last man and the last shilling, whatever the cost." Winning the War! There is something more important than that, and it is what you win by the War that really matters. Is anybody thinking about that Winning the War! We have won wars in the past, and military victories have been thrown away in the Council Chamber by diplomatists simply because the country did not realise what it went into the war for.

Look at the Crimean War. After a year of waging that there was a possibility of negotiations. There was a Debate in this House which lasted five days—a very good precedent—and in it the whole situation was fully discussed. Those who said we must win the war won the day. The war continued for another year. What did they win by the war? The Treaty of Paris, which was not worth the paper it was written on! It is not the winning of the War; it is what you get, or what you are going to get. Those are the real and true objects that are of consequence. It is the future that matters. There is undoubtedly in this House, and outside, a feeling of want of confidence just now, not only because of the absence of military victory, but because there is an idea that the Government are just making speeches about triumph and are not informing the people definitely what it is that that country is to gain by the War.

There is a suspicion, too, that there are difficulties in working with our Allies, that we are being led by our Allies and not leading them. That is apparent, I think, in the case of the Dardanelles. I do not want to go over ground which has been covered in that respect. I will only say three things in regard to the Dardanelles Expedition. The first is that we were not leading, but were being led by our Allies in its inception. I think that is clear. The second is that there was a serious and dangerous conflict of opinion about its execution. The third is that there is now disastrous indecision as to the right course to pursue. Meanwhile, the losses are heavy in the Peninsula. In the Balkans, too, I think we are being led by our Allies, and not leading them I absolutely fail to follow all the complications with regard to the situation in Serbia. It is very difficult to unravel the various and rather contradictory statements made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and by Lord Lansdowne. But, at any rate, it is perfectly clear that although we knew during fifteen months the dangers in the Balkans we were unable to win Bulgaria over to our side, or to keep Greece with us. That is a most serious failure. We know that the Germans left no stone unturned at Sofia in trying to deal with King Ferdinand. We know we were outmanœuvred and that there is nothing whatever to show for our efforts at Sofia. No special care was taken to deal with an especially critical situation.

It is no good attacking persons or singling out officials for attack. I myself very much deprecate, for instance, with regard to foreign matters the unfounded and unreasonable attacks which have been made on one of the most efficient officials in the Foreign Office, Sir Eyre Crowe. Certainly, when the War is over, the Foreign Office will have to be reformed from ceiling to floor. I have talked about it often enough in this House. I am sure hon. Members will not rest satisfied until some fresh air and cleanliness has been brought into it. Take an instance which occurred the other day—the question of Cyprus. It is a very serious matter when offers of British territory are made to a foreign Power, and it is very important, that this House should be informed. Yet it was really by a casual question that the fact came out. If you must be secret, be secret and close the doors of your Council Chamber. Do not leave them ajar for eavesdroppers to get at your secrets. Very often through these leakages you first get information through the Press, and it seems to me that in an important matter of this sort the House should be treated with greater respect, and should be informed of any offer of British territory being made to a foreign Power.

I gather from a speech of the Prime Minister last week that he has evidently been feeling the pinch with regard to the secrecy of the Foreign Office, because he said we should also have more intimate and regular exchanges, not only between the War Office and the Admiralty, but with those who conduct our diplomatic affairs. It is impossible to carry on these matters in watertight compartments. No doubt the Foreign Office has been accustomed to carry on its work in watertight compartments. But with the War it is impossible that that should continue, and I sincerely hope that by co-ordination between the Cabinet and those who are guiding the destinies of the nation we shall have access—full access—to the information which the Foreign Office alone has. Our objects in this War ought to be made absolutely clear. What are they? They are to free Belgium from the enemy. Belgium has been subjected to an unparalleled outrage in the way she was attacked. Belgium must be freed. But let us also remember that to drive the German enemy across Belgium—a task in itself of great difficulty; we see no prospect of it at present—would mean intolerable suffering to Belgium. A prominent Belgian, who is living in this country, has said in a letter to the Press recently:— very system we abominate, whose very existence we detest, instituted in our midst, and in setting out to destroy the evil we are creating it at home. Criticism is silenced, opinion is repressed, without any sort of excuse or adequate explanation a Liberal Administration committed suicide before our eyes, Acts of Parliament have been rushed through without Debate, and any criticism or opposition is condemned as unpatriotic; labour has been dragooned, newspaper offices have been raided, pamphlets have been burned, speakers imprisoned, Protection instituted and Conscription threatened—and all this in the name of liberty and democracy.

I remember, when I was about eighteen years of age, I went to Berlin to learn German, and when I woke up in the morning in my lodgings I found a policeman sitting at the bottom of my bed. Being English I very much resented his presence. But I hear to-day that a flat has been raided in Lincoln's Inn Fields. I live in Lincoln's Inn Fields, and I should not be in the least surprised when I get home if I found a policeman in my bed. I am surprised at nothing now. When we see these feelings growing up in our midst it makes us think we want some higher ideal, some better cause put before the people while the War continues. It is not a change of persons that is wanted. It is a change of intention, a change of motive in the Government. We do not want this merely destructive, vindictive, retaliatory idea. We want a constructive purpose of which the people should be fully informed. We want a clear statement of what we actually want to achieve. That would prevent the aggressive utterances of extremists being accepted abroad as public opinion, and having the certain effect of prolonging the War. That is what is happening now. These excessive and extreme opinions here are being quoted in Germany, just as, very likely, the extreme German opinion is quoted here. The ideal was well stated by the Prime Minister in a speech which he made a long time ago now and which he has, I dare say, forgotten. He little thinks, perhaps, that it has been quoted up and down the country and has given a great deal of hope to people who have wanted to feel that in waging this War there was some great object to be achieved. It was a speech at Dublin in September of last year, when he said that what we ought to keep in view in this War was the enthronement of the idea of public right, which meant

"by a slow and gradual process, the substitution for force, for the clash of competing ambition, for groupings and alliances and a precarious equipoise, of a. real European partnership based on the recognition of equal rights, and established and enforced by a common will."

That object can only be achieved by the insistence of the people, by the people having a voice, by the people being informed, and by the people having control. But that object has been dropped to a large extent in all these vindictive phrases which we are so accustomed to hear. We are told from morning to night that the one thing is men, munitions and money. Bleed this country white. Go on. If, that is to say, you want to burn down your neighbour's house, it does not signify if you burn your own house down too. Go on piling fuel on the flames.

Yes, I want to use the hose. There is a feeling that this conflagration is out of hand and that nobody has control of it. All the people are doing is to keep on crying for more fuel. So long as you keep on repeating these empty phrases you encourage hatred and vengeance and appeal to the lowest instincts that can possess human beings.

What about Germany's position? What about the dark and gloomy pictures that are being painted? Germany is not victorious. She stands surrounded by un-conquered foes. She is deprived of her colonies. Her trade is destroyed, and economic ruin is staring her in the face. I do not know whether these gloomy panic-mongers have any real regard to Germany's position.

An HON. MEMBER: You are not very cheerful.

I think I have been more cheerful in regard to the position of this country than most speakers. The opinion in Germany that is quoted here is the opinion of extremists. It is not known, because our newspapers refuse to quote it, that there is a growing body of opinion in Germany of a very much more moderate tendency, which is against any sort of annexation. I will only quote one small passage from a memorial signed by eighty-two prominent men—professors and editors of newspapers—which was presented to the Chancellor in July. The memorialists said:—

"Germany did not enter the War with the idea of annexation, but in order to preserve its existence, threatened by the enemy coalition against its national unity and its progressive development. In concluding peace, Germany cannot pursue anything that does not serve these objects. We, therefore, consider it our duty, in view of certain petitions which have reached your Excellency that violate these objects, to oppose with all possible energy these efforts, and to say, frankly, that we shall consider their realisation a far-reaching political mistake, a fatal weakening of the German Empire, and not an increase of its strength."

That shows that there is a growing moderate opinion in Germany. So long as the majority of opinion there considers that this country is merely bent on the dismemberment of the German Empire and the extermination of the German people, the War is likely to continue for many years to come. Therefore, I say, let us take stock of the whole situation, and of the whole of this great calamity. Let us make our objects clear, and let us not miss any opportunity of achieving our objects, if it be possible, by other means than by force of arms. Europe is being devitalised; nations are being bled white, and surely it cannot be wrong to look forward to the attainment of our ends without the continued loss of life and bloodshed. No one hearing the Prime Minister last Tuesday could have been very much encouraged by the survey of the situation which he gave. To me the depressing feature was not so much his inability to report successes, nor his acknowledgment of positive failure in certain quarters; nor is it to be found in the inevitable mismanagement and bungling which always attends the conduct of War; it was the absence of any great appeal to the nation, an appeal to bear steadfastly in mind a high motive and a positive ideal. It was his failure to set before us a definite attainable object which we might achieve by this War; it was the endless vista he presented of continued bloodshed, and the assumption by this country of almost unlimited liabilities that made his speech, in my opinion, such a hopeless and despairing utterance at this unprecedented crisis in the nation's history. I want to see. this country playing a leading part in securing a lasting settlement. I want to see Great Britain in the forefront in leading the nations back to sanity and not to ruin in the mere pursuit of a passing triumph. What is the purpose, what is the object which should ever be kept before the eyes of the people in order that they may be prepared, and by their resolution gain it? Surely it is the determination to secure, whether it be by military victory or by diplomatic negotiation, not only the freeing of Belgium and France, but a settlement which will guarantee the future security of nations and lay the foundations of lasting peace; to secure by this means a great recompense for the supreme sacrifices which have been made, full compensation for the loss and the sufferings and the ruin, a compensation and a recompense not only for this country, but for Europe and for the world.

I do not want to make a speech of any length. It will be necessary to get the Vote this evening, I hope with the consent of the House, before eleven o'clock. The object of the Debate is that the Government should hear, and by hearing gather the opinions in different quarters of the House, rather than that there should be constant speeches from the Government Bench. It is very difficult in time of war to make constant speeches on behalf of the Government. The Prime Minister has lately made two speeches of great importance. I do not propose now to attempt anything more than to deal with one or two points which have been raised in Debate,: and which I would like to make clear. In the first place, let me say that I welcome very much the repudiation in the speech of the hon. Member who has last spoken of attacks upon individuals in the Foreign Office, excepting, of course, the Secretary of State, who is not a permanent official, who has responsibility and who is the proper person and the only person to be attacked if the Foreign Office is to be attacked at all. I have to resent the attacks which have been made upon Sir Eyre Crowe, who is a zealous, public-spirited, unselfish and patriotic Civil servant, and I am sure of this that if attacks of that kind upon such men as Sir Eyre Crowe were to be successful it would be impossible for the country to be so well served by its officials. If such officials were allowed to be attacked it would be resented through the whole office. It would destroy the morale of the office, and you would lose the public spirit of your Civil service if you allowed attacks upon individuals like Sir Eyre Crowe, who are known to all those who are acquainted with their work to be some of the best public servants, to have any effect whatever.

The one point which I would touch once again, to see if I can make clear exactly what has happened, is the question of Serbia. It is impossible for military reasons to go into the matter in great detail, but I would ask the House to be sure of this: that if not as much has been done as many would like to see done it has not been through any want of good will on the part of His Majesty's Government. Our will has been to do the utmost that we could. A year ago, when Serbia was in very great danger, we could do nothing except supply ammunition and money, and nobody expected us to do more. We had not troops to spare It was impossible to send troops. We could not do it. What we have been able to do has been limited, not by our will but by our power. What has happened has been this: When Bulgaria attacked Serbia, and it appeared probable that Greece would fulfil her treaty obligations to Serbia and enter into the War, at once the possibility of cooperation with Greece for that purpose opened out new possibilities for helping Serbia. And in common with the French Government we made to Greece the offer to send 150,000 men to enable Greece to fulfil her obligations to Serbia. That was the beginning of the whole thing. The hon. Member opposite who initiated the Debate about Serbia asked why, when 150,000 troops was spoken of, our share being 75,000, we only sent 13,000. You cannot provide transport and everything of that kind for 150,000 men at once. We sent the men at once that were available, the only men we had available, who could be sent immediately. We began, without delay, preparations for transport and for getting troops from elsewhere; but you can only take troops from elsewhere when they can be spared with due regard to the military exigencies in other places.

I cannot carry the exact date in my mind, but I think it was the 24th September. I cannot be quite sure, but from that time preparations began. But the movement of troops is a matter which requires much preparation, and if I am asked, as I think the hon. Member asked, how is it that the French Govern- ment have in some cases sent more troops, so far, than we have yet sent, one of the answers, I believe, is this—though it is a question outside my Department, but I believe it is the case, I cannot be sure without reference to the Admiralty—that we. provided transport for some of the French troops, and the French Division, being ready, embarked first. We provided transport for the French, and until we had liberated a certain number of the transports conveying the French, it was impossible to embark our own troops. That does not apply to the first division, as far as I remember, but I think it does apply subsequently. Meanwhile, preparations began to be made. Then came the new situation upon the change of Government which took place in Greece, and it was evident that Greece was not going to fulfil her treaty obligations to Serbia.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer this question: This danger was perfectly well-known to him at least in April. How does the right hon. Gentleman account for the fact that there were no preparations until the 24th September?

Where were we to get the troops from? I am entitled to put. to any hon. Member that question.

made an observation which was not audible in. the Reporters' Gallery.

I said we were prepared to send troops, and we are making preparations now. When we were asked to send troops, I said, "Yes," and we began to make preparations from that time. Our liabilities, our commitments to the? War, have been fully up to the amount which we had available at any particular moment. When we said on 24th September that we would send troops we sent all we had immediately available. We began to get all we could from some parts. We could not have taken them sooner than that date. That is the answer. It is not as if we had had since April a hundred, thousand, or two hundred thousand, or three hundred thousand troops ready for War to do what we liked with and to send where we liked. Every man we have had available for war has been engaged in actual fighting in important theatres of war. It is not as if we were at the beginning of the War, with an Army quite free and not yet engaged. That is the point.

Let me go back. When it became clear that Greece was not going to fulfil her treaty obligations, were we not to consider with our military authorities whether what would have been a perfectly safe operation with the co-operation of Greece would have been a perfectly safe military operation without that co-operation? Were we not to consider with our military authorities whether what we could have done with 150,000 Anglo-French troops, in co-operation with Greece, and that, if we could have effected the object of making Serbia safe, whether we could achieve that object without the co-operation of Greece with that number of troops, or whether it would have been simply sending the troops to no purpose? Were we not to consider that? We did consider; we thought it right to consider those points, not only in consultation with our own military authorities, but in consultation very closely with the French. It was at that time, while that was taking place, that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson) left the Government, and no decision had been come to. But there were all the preparations going on to send the troops all the time. Finally, after consultation with the French, we decided to go on with the dispatch of troops to Salonika as soon as they were ready. The hesitation was, as Greece was not to co-operate, what was to be done with the troops when they were ready. We had close and anxious consultation on the matter, and we came to a full agreement with the French Government. That is the real history of the case. That is why I say nobody could be expected to send troops into the Balkans at the expense of endangering the situation in the West or running the risk of military disaster elsewhere. When I say that the Government did what was in its power in this matter, and when I say that promise has been fulfilled and that we are doing all within our power, I mean that what troops that have been available have been got ready with as much dispatch as possible, and every preparation has been made to send them, in cooperation with the French, to the Balkan theatre of war. That is the plain history of the matter. It is not as if we could have made preparation with a perfectly free hand at any time we chose. Events were taking place in the West at the end of September which made it impossible for us to take troops from the West at that time. It is not as if the troops who are now actually being transported to the Mediterranean could have been embarked and sent a month earlier; they were required then for another purpose. That is the real state of the case. I will not enter upon other points. I have tried to make the history as plain as I can. I will only repeat that I can assure the hon. Member who opened the Debate that the guarantee and the need have been felt as strongly in the Government as they have been in the country. If we have not been able to do more it is only one more of many instances in this enormous War where a limitation has been imposed not by our will, not by our want of sympathy, not by our aspirations, but solely by the amount of the Forces at our disposal.

I cannot believe that when the whole history of this transaction comes to light, if it ever does come to light, we shall be satisfied with the account of it which the right hon. Gentleman has given us to understand is really the whole truth in the matter. I do not say that in any offensive sense towards the right hon. Gentleman. I mean that his view of it and of his own activities in the matter cannot possibly, as far as I can understand what has taken place, be the view that will ultimately be taken by impartial observers. What appears to me to be the central tragedy of all the tragedies of this War is the relation of this country to the small nations. I agree with the hon. Member for North Donegal that at all events, so far as Belgium is concerned, it is no use now trying to apportion the blame. But I cannot help feeling that, with regard to Serbia, which is now undergoing a similar, or even greater, agony than has been inflicted upon Belgium, this country will ultimately be found to be not merely unfortunate, but guilty. The right hon. Gentleman has told us, with a certain amount of particularity, what happened at a number of quite recent dates. Ever since the beginning of the War the possibility that the Allies would have to send to Serbia and the Balkans must have been apparent to the Government. It is quite true that last year we were not in a military position to offer any assistance, but it does not at all follow to my mind that that inability had not disappeared at all events by the beginning of the present summer. The right hon. Gentleman knew perfectly well, as we all knew from the spring of this year, that this danger had to be looked forward to—that the Germans would break through and attack Serbia. As the Russian retreat proceeded, as the lack of munitions at Constantinople became more and more important, it became more obvious that the policy which Germany was likely to pursue, possibly as a policy of despair, possibly as a. gamble if she were held elsewhere, was to make this very rush she is making now, in order to seize the economic resources of the Balkans and assist the Turks with ammunition and men. The right hon. Gentleman asked me where he was to get the troops to send help. Obviously that is not for me to say. I do not know where the troops were. What we do know is that the troops in the Empire, instead of numbering a few hundred thousand, as at the beginning of the War, were at that time approaching millions. As a matter of fact I believe that at that time, in the early summer of this year, troops were to be had in Egypt, in this country, and possibly in India.

I do not know, nor I expect does the Government know, where the troops of the Empire are quartered, but I am not at all certain that at that time it was as impossible as the right hon. Gentleman would have us believe to, at all events, make preparations for this danger when it came. I should like to be informed upon one point, I myself do not believe that stock was ever taken even of the situation. The right hon. Gentleman has never told us that in the spring or the early summer of this year the Cabinet considered what the situation would be if the Germans did take a new initiative in the Balkans. He has never told us that the military advisers of the Government were consulted as to where the troops were or were not to be procured. All that he says, in answer to what I think is a serious indictment of the Government of the very complete lack of preparation throughout the whole spring and the early summer, is, "Where would you have got the troops?" I believe men could have been got.

We come now to the recent events of September. There, again, I cannot believe that we have had a complete account of the transactions in the series of questions, and in the short speech that the right hon. Gentleman has just made. The right hon. Gentleman referred to many other things—to the retirement from the Government of my right hon. and learned Friend (Sir E. Carson). We know from the letter that has been published that my right hon. Friend tendered his resignation to the Prime Minister on 12th October. In that letter my right hon. Friend—I am quoting from memory, but I believe correctly—said that he could not believe that without dishonour England could abandon Serbia to her fate. He then went on at considerable length to give his reasons for resignation—on the ground of expediency and possibility against that policy. He spoke as if at that time that was the accepted policy of the Government. Obviously that letter must have been written to the Prime Minister upon some decision which had been arrived at at that time by the Cabinet. That was on 12th October. If I remember rightly, several days passed before that resignation was accepted and the fact made public. We have never been told by the Prime Minister, or by the right hon. Gentleman, that that letter to the Prime Minister received the reply: "Dear Mr. Attorney-General,—You are entirely mistaken as to the policy of the Government. You are quite mistaken in imagining that the Government ever came to any decision to abandon Serbia to her fate." My right hon. Friend, who is perfectly capable of understanding the English language, could not have so mistaken the situation and been so utterly out of it as regards the policy which had been arrived at by his colleagues in the Cabinet. I suppose that letter of resignation was laid before the Cabinet. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Grey) shakes his head. I am not surprised at that, seeing that you can give away islands of the British Empire by merely consulting one or two departmental heads. We were told, in answer to a question, that the Departments concerned were consulted. I wonder what Departments are concerned when you give away an island of the British Empire before lunch, and in an emergency? I take it from the right hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend's letter was not put before the Cabinet. At all events, it reached the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister accepted that statement, that at that time Serbia was to be abandoned to her fate. It is for that reason, amongst others, that we really cannot accept what is put forward now, that from the first there was no lack of foresight, or lack of grasp of the situation; that the danger was prepared against, that troops and transports were to be ready, and that from that day to this there has been no slackness, no want of foresight or endeavour on the part of the Government in sending all the assistance in their power to our Serbian Allies. I cannot accept that as a true view of the situation, but, of course, at the time we have reached now it is impossible for us to go at any length into these transactions. I must warn the right hon. Gentleman, however, that this is a matter about which, I believe, the country outside is feeling more and more anxious and more and more indignant. I do think the right hon. Gentleman cannot expect that we should now finally leave consideration of this matter, and that the House will have to take a further opportunity of returning to it and giving it fuller consideration.

I do not know whether the Government are going to move the Closure to-night, because there are three or four hon. Members who could not take part in the Debates on the earlier Votes of Credit, and some of us have not had an opportunity of joining in the discussion. I do not know whether it would be more convenient for the Government to take the further discussion on the Report stage, otherwise I have several remarks to make which would take some little time. If the right hon. Gentleman would like the discussion to go over till Monday, I am quite willing to say what I have to say then.

I would appeal very earnestly to the House to let us have the Vote to-night. There will be other opportunities on the Report stage and the Appropriation Bill for these questions to be raised. I quite realise the desire of the House to express its opinions and criticise the Government, but I would remind hon. Members that, after all, we are carrying on a War, and in some respects at a disadvantage. We have to carry on the War in consultation with our Allies, and carry on Debates in this House, and our enemies have more concentrated power of carrying on.

I want it made quite clear that there will be an opportunity for discussion on the Report stage on Monday. I want it made quite clear that I shall raise the question on Monday, and I hope the Government will not consider—in fact, I do not care whether they do or not—but I shall raise the matter on the Report stage.

Question put, and agreed to.

Supply considered in Committee;

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Supplementary Vote of Credit

Resolved,

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £400,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, beyond the ordinary Grants of Parliament, towards defraying the Expenses which may be incurred during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1916, for General Navy and Army Services in so far as specific provision is not made there-for by Parliament; for the conduct of Naval and Military Operations; for all measures which may be taken for the Security of the Country; for assisting the Food Supply, and promoting the Continuance of Trade, Industry, Business and Communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against risk, the financing of the purchase and resale of food-stuffs and materials, or otherwise; for Relief of Distress; and generally for all expenses, beyond those provided for in the Ordinary Grants of Parliament, arising out of the existence of a state of war."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]

Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.

Ways and Means

Considered in Committee.

Resolved, "That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1916, the sum of £400,000,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]

Resolution to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.

Ulster Canal Bill

Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [28th October] further adjourned till Monday next.

The other Orders of the Day were read and postponed.

Notices of Amendments

Order read for resuming adjourned Debate on Question [9th November], "That for the remainder of the Session, whenever the House adjourns from Thursday to the following Tuesday, Members desiring to give notice of new Clauses and Amendments to Bills may send such Notices to the Clerks at the Table, and any such Notices received by them before Five of the clock on a Friday or Monday shall be printed and circulated with the Votes.—[ Mr. Walter Rea. ]

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion for Adjournment

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

I want the Patronage Secretary to remember that owing to the neglect of the Government—to no Ministers being here last night—we lost one hour and twenty minutes of Parliamentary time, and, therefore, we intend to have that time back on Monday.

May I also remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer that we were promised a speech from the Under-Secretary for War, and that there were certain important questions raised to which we expect an answer, and I hope we shall not be disappointed.

The matter is really in the hands of the House. I said we hoped the Report stage might be regarded as formal, because anything not discussed then can be fully discussed on the Second or Third Reading of the Appropriation Bill, and I hope the expectation of the Prime Minister may be realised.

The matter is entirely in the hands of the House.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Fire minutes after Eleven o'clock, until Monday next, November 15th, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February.