House of Commons
Tuesday, November 16, 1915
Colonial Reports (Annual)
Copy presented of Report No. 869 (British Solomon Islands, Report for 1914–15) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Employment in Shops (Departmental Committee)
Copy presented of Order No. 9579, dated mental Committee appointed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to consider the conditions of retail trade which can best secure that the further enlistment of men or their employment in other national services may not interfere with the operations of that trade [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Diseases of Animals Acts
Copy presented of Order No. 9579, dated 11th November, postponing the operation of the two Orders described in the Schedule thereto until the 25th November, 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865
Copies presented of four Orders in Council, dated 10th November, 1915, under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Public Works (Ireland)
Copy presented of Eighty-third Annual Report of the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, with Appendices, for the year ending 31st March, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Post Office (Inland Post)
Copy presented of the Inland Post Amendment (No. 16) Warrant, 1915, dated 30th October, 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Soldiers' Grievances (Communications to Members of Parliament)
asked the Under-secretary of State for War if any officer or officers in the 3rd Royal Sussex Regiment have any right or authority to prevent or prohibit Private C. M. Ramsey from communicating with a Member of Parliament; and if Private C. M. Ramsey, of the 3rd Royal Sussex Regiment, 5th Company, Newhaven, who enlisted in the Royal Army Medical Corps in January last, and has been transferred to the Royal Sussex Regiment in opposition to his express wish, has been illegally transferred to the latter regiment?
My hon. Friend will find in paragraphs 445 and 439 of the King's Regulations the conditions to be observed by a soldier who desires to obtain redress for any grievance for which he may think he suffers. Application to a Member of Parliament is not the correct course, and it is not in the interests of discipline that serving soldiers should take this course. As regards the latter part of the question, I find that Private Ramsey was transferred from the Royal Army Medical Corps to the 3rd Sussex Regiment on the 2nd June and did not raise any complaint until September. It appears also that he served previously for five years in the 3rd Volunteer Battalion of the Royal West Surrey Regiment, and, according to his attestation paper, enlisted on the 18th January, 1915, for general service. His transfer was not illegal, and he does not appear to have regarded it as undesirable until a considerable time after it was effected.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the right course for Members to pursue when addressed by soldiers in regard to grievances in which no question of discipline may arise?
The right course is for a soldier to approach his adjutant or commanding officer through the regular military channels.
I would like a definite answer as to whether an officer has the right to prevent a soldier from communicating with a Member of Parliament if he wishes to do so. I have not had that answered.
I am bound to say that that is not a very easy question to answer. As I have stated, it is not desirable for soldiers to communicate with Members of Parliament, and if my hon. Friend wishes me to say anything further he would be entitled to quote the representative of the War Office as saying that it is an undesirable course, and that he hopes it will not be persisted in.
Is it not the case that there is expressed provision both in the King's Regulations and I think in Section 22 of the Army Act in which application for help from outside sources is expressly, if not directly, prohibited?
I think that is quite correct.
Troopship Canteens
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he is aware of the complaints of the prices charged at the canteens on board the respective troopships to Egypt; and whether, if any complaints are brought to his notice, he will take action in the matter?
The canteen prices on board transports are regulated by the Admiralty, and any complaint would be referred to that Department. There have been one or two complaints received which have been so dealt with, but as there has been no special report on this matter from the great majority of transports, it would appear that the arrangements generally are satisfactory.
Army Supplies
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether his attention has been called to the Army supplies of flour, bacon, canned meats, clothing, etc., acquired and forwarded to their destination by the Army Service Corps and to the fact that no contract exists for receiving, storing, inspecting, and dispatching these goods to the troops; will he state why an exception should have been made in the matter of frozen meat, in view of the fact that, in its hard frozen condition, the only inspection possible is such as a butcher's foreman would make for general average condition and appearance; and whether, as a result of this exception, the cost of receiving, storing, and dispatching beef is increased?
The conditions under which frozen meat is obtained for the Army are totally different to those relating to the receipt and distribution of flour, bacon, and the other commodities referred to, and no useful comparison can be made such as the hon. Member suggests.
Has the attention of the hon. Gentleman been called to the fact that this is about the fortieth question on the same subject put by the hon. Member for West Ham in the last few months, and can he give an estimate of the time spent by the War Office in answering these questions?
I cannot commit myself to the precise number of questions asked by my hon. Friend, but he has asked a very long series of questions dealing with this particular question. I hope that he will bear in mind the fact that the preparation of answers to these questions throws a very heavy burden of work upon officers who are already overworked. If my hon. Friend has any scandal in his mind, or if he thinks there is anything that ought to-be thrashed out—brought to light, let it be dealt with in debate, rather than by this continual system of interrogation.
I am considering the health of the troops, and I am going to fire away as long as I can.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state if contractors have or have not refused to put up meat in ½ 1b. and ¾lb. tins; if, in view of the continual representations that have been made as to the waste involved in issuing the 1-lb tins, he will give definite orders for the issue of a number of ½1b. and ¾lb. tins; and if he is aware that packing ½ lb. and ¾lb. of meat in a 1-lb. tin does not meet the difficulty, as meat packed under such conditions; decays with rapidity?
Contractors have not refused to put up meat in ½lb. and ¾lb. tins, and they have not been asked to do so. The daily ration of preserved meat is ¾lb., and it would not be economical to pack it in smaller quantities. The last part of my hon. Friend's question shows that he has not fully understood the reply I gave on this subject on the 11th November. The 1-lb. tin referred to is known in the trade as a nominal 1 lb. tin, but it holds only ¾lb.
Is it not essential that the meat should be fit for immediate use, and that it should not be absolutely uneatable through salt brine?
That is not included in the question of my hon. Friend.
Inoculation
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that seven men of the Royal Army Medical Corps, 12th battalion, 34th company, now at the Davidson Road Hospital, South Norwood, whose only crime is the exercise of their legal right to refuse inoculation, have been punished by deduction in pay for badges, buttons, red crosses for arms, and numbers on shoulder straps, and by being put on extra fatigue duty; that they have been repeatedly told that inoculation is compulsory; and whether he will stop this persecution of men for putting trust in his word, and reprimand the officers guilty of such misconduct?
I do not know from what sources my hon. Friend derives the allegations contained in his question. I have had the men interrogated and I have now received a report under date 12th November, that every man denies that he was told inoculation was compulsory. I am further informed by the officer in command of the hospital that none of the statements contained in the question have any foundation in fact.
Drainage of Camps (Gallipoli)
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether adequate provision has now been made for the winter drainage of the camps and the shelter of the men on the Peninsula of Gallipoli; and whether the plans of the authorities in this respect have been now carried out?
I have no quite recent information on this point, nor have I thought well to telegraph my hon. Friend's question to the General Officer Commanding in Gallipoli, but the General Officer Commanding gave an assurance, some two months ago, that all the necessary arrangements were in hand, and as all demands for material have been and are complied with without avoidable delay I have no reason to suppose that the plans have not been carried out.
Recruiting
Enlistment of Employers
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he is aware that some employers who have induced many of their employés to enlist by promising to make up the difference between the civil and military pay of such employés, and to keep their places open for them and to take them back after the War, are now themselves being urged to enlist, regardless of the fact that such employers, being indispensable to the continuance of their businesses, will if they themselves enlist consequently be unable to keep the promises on the strength of which their employés enlisted; and will he state what steps will be taken in such cases?
I am informed by the Director-General of Recruiting that every such case will be considered upon its merits.
Army Service Corps (Pay)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether in the early stages of the War men were recruited for the Army Service Corps (packers and loaders) at a remuneration of 1s. 8d. per day; if he is aware that the pay now being offered to recruits is 3s. per day, and that dissatisfaction prevails among the men who enlisted under the old conditions; and if he proposes to remedy the grievances?
The men rated as packers and loaders in the Army Service Corps are paid 1s. 8d. a day now as before. The men to whom 3s. is paid are labourers possessing special qualifications. The second part of the question does not therefore arise.
Methods of Enlistment
asked the Prime Minister if, in the event of insufficient unmarried men offering themselves to be attested voluntarily for service in His Majesty's Forces, the other methods of enlistment foreshadowed by him are methods of compulsion for those who have failed to realise their national obligation to serve on an occasion of national emergency?
In answer to this question and one which was put to me yesterday, I must refer to and repeat what I said in the House on the 2nd November. It is my confident hope and belief that no question of resort to coercive methods will be found necessary, and that the appeal to the sense of patriotic duty, which is now being so energetically pressed by Lord Derby and his committee, will elicit an adequate response from all classes, and in particular from the young and unmarried men of the country.
May I ask whether the speech that the right hon. Gentleman delivered on 2nd November still holds the field with regard to the conditions that he would require to be satisfied before compulsion could be introduced?
I am not aware of anything that is excluded or extended since that date.
May I ask whether there is not a discrepancy between Lord Derby's statement issued last Thursday and the Prime Minister's statement of 2nd November?
HON. MEMBERS: No, no!
I am not aware that there is, but that is rather a matter for argument.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many married men are now enlisting in the belief that not one of them will be called up until every unmarried man in the country is called up?
I do not know why that belief should be entertained.
HON. MEMBERS: You said it.
It is quite clear there must be cases where it must be left to the discretion of the local tribunal and with regard to which it might be proved that unmarried men should not go.
Is the Prime Minister aware that the authority of his name is being used by responsible recruiting committees in the country for statements to the effect that there is free choice of corps until 30th November, and after that date there will be no option; and is he also aware that the Glasgow recruiting committee published an advertisement in the "Glasgow Herald" yesterday, undercover of the Royal Arms, with these words:—"Enlist before 30th November. If you do not, the Prime Minister has pledged himself and his Government that compulsory means will be taken"?
If the hon. Member will give me notice I will look into the matter.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the President of the Local Government Board himself announced on Saturday last that compulsion had been decided upon?
I do not think my right hon. Friend did anything of the kind. Compulsion cannot be decided upon except with the assent of Parliament.
Commercial Experts
asked the Prime Minister whether he will say if the Government regard it as being, from a national point of view, economical to enlist for military service indispensable and irreplacable experts who are engaged in conducting overseas commercial operations which add to the financial strength of the nation and to its taxable capacity; and, if the Government regard such action as uneconomical, will they take prompt steps either to prevent the enlistment of such experts or, if enlisted, to put them back into a special class which will be one of the last classes to be called up?
I am not aware of the cases that the hon. Member has in mind, but if it is found that experts of the class referred to have enlisted due steps will be taken to release them or put them back through the existing machinery.
London County Council Scholarships
asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that the London County Council is withholding certain scholarships which have been won unless the scholar agrees to join the Army; and if this action has the support of the Board of Education?
I understand that the Council have allowed all scholarship holders fit for military service to postpone their scholarships if they desire to point the Forces. The cases of such students as desire to take up their scholarships forthwith are considered on their merits, with special reservations for medical students and students engaged in munitions work. The matter is wholly within the discretion of the council, and does not require the Board's approval.
Education Department (South Kensington)
asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that men employed by his Department at South Kensington who joined the Army or Navy previous to 31st October had their service pay made up to the pay they were receiving at the time of enlistment and were also promised their employment again at the end of the War; if he is aware that men who are desirous of enlisting now are informed that they will not have anything added to their service pay nor will their situations be kept open for them; and will he explain why there is this differentiation in the treatment of these men?
So far as I am aware no distinction is drawn in respect of service pay between men who enlisted before and after the 31st October. A distinction is necessarily made between members of the Board's staff and temporary substitutes engaged since the outbreak of war. The former are eligible for the usual benefits on enlistment: the latter, by a Treasury Rule laid down for all Departments, are debarred from these benefits.
Men of Military Age (Emigration)
asked the Home Secretary if he proposes on behalf of the Government to express some appreciation of the action of the seamen and firemen of the port of Liverpool, many of whom are Irishmen, in protesting against men of military age leaving the United Kingdom during this crisis?
I feel sure that the patriotic motives of the seamen and firemen to whom the hon. Gentleman refers are generally appreciated.
His Majesty's Appeal (Publications)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War who is responsible for the publication in the Press of His Majesty's late appeal for recruits; whether he is aware that in some districts certain papers have been used and certain others, which are more widely read, have been ignored; and whether he will rectify this discrimination forthwith?
His Majesty's message to his people was issued by the Press Bureau to the newspapers through the news agencies; in addition copies were supplied by the Publicity Department of the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee to morning and evening newspapers, Sunday papers and provincial weekly newspapers. The distribution was general, and there was no reference to party or any other similar irrelevant consideration. If there were any omissions they were purely accidental, and I am sure that the Publicity Department of the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee would be glad to remedy them.
Hospital Administration Work
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether men of military age having experience of hospital administration work can be utilised in similar work for the War Office instead of joining the combatant ranks?
There are no purely administrative appointments in connection with military hospitals. The officers in charge of these hospitals must be qualified medical men, as their duties necessitate their acting in that capacity. I would suggest that the gentlemen whom my hon. Friend has in mind would do best to join the combatant ranks.
asked the Under-secretary of State for War how many doctors, holding commissions in the Royal Army Medical Corps, are employed on purely administrative work?
As I have just stated, there are no purely administrative appointments in the Royal Army Medical Corps. To ascertain the number of Royal Army Medical Corps officers who are doing administrative work in addition to professional work would entail much labour, and I would ask my hon. Friend not to press for this information. It may be assumed that the proportion is a large one, and includes every commanding officer.
Loss of Army Mail
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that on the 19th of October last the son of a Mrs. Bishop, of 10, Jeyes Road, Gillingham, Kent, serving in the Army Service Corps, British Expeditionary Force, sent a registered post letter to his mother containing a £l note; that the registration of the letter is admitted by the Post Office, and also the fact that the letter has never been delivered; that the Post Office repudiate all responsibility, alleging that the whole mail was lost in transmission from the field post office to a base post office in France, and that the Post Office had no control in the matter; will he state to what circumstances the loss of this mail was due; whether the same was captured by the enemy and under whose control the mail was at the time of the loss; and will he in the circumstances cause the £l to be paid to Mrs. Bishop, who is a poor woman?
The facts are as stated. The exact circumstances of the loss of the mail are not known in the War Office, but the mail was under the control of the Military Authorities. As regards compensation the War Office has followed the Rules of the Post Office, under which I understand that as the loss was not due to neglect or dishonesty on the part of any Postal official, no compensation is admissible.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire to what the loss of this mail was due?
Is was due to military operations.
That is so vague. Will the right hon. Gentleman say what were the military operations resulting in the loss of the entire mail?
I have made inquiry into the matter, and also into the loss of the poor woman's sovereign, and I am informed that it was due to military operations. It is not certain that the mail did not fall into the hands of the enemy. Therefore, I much regret having to give the answer which I have given. I am sure my hon. Friend will realise that. Supposing we were to give way in this trumpery case, it might involve the public Exchequer in very large expense, depending on the precedent of that one pound case.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that to this poor woman the sovereign is not a trumpery matter? Will he say on what grounds he accepted a registration fee, and then refused responsibility for the parcel so registered? Is it not a fact that these military post offices are at least five miles behind the firing line? What are "military operations?"
I am glad to make quite plain that, of course, I never intended to convey that the loss of £1 is a trumpery thing to a poor woman. All I meant was that it was of very small account to the War Office, but that if it were refunded, and that this were taken as a precedent, it might involve the State in the loss of a very large sum. In a case of this kind the War Office has always observed the Post Office regulations. If we should persuade the Post Office to alter their regulations, we should have no difficulty in following the principle suggested. Registration, I should point out, is not insurance. Registration only implies that the Post Office will do its best to secure the safe delivery of the packet. If there is no dishonesty or neglect on the part of the Post Office, then no refund will be made. In the case of insurance it would be otherwise.
Veterinary Surgeons (Territorial Force)
asked whether the military authorities have now considered the question of giving all veterinary surgeons serving in His Majesty's Force equal chances of promotion; and whether the policy will be for the future discontinued of promoting those veterinary surgeons who have only joined the Forces for a year over the heads of older and more experienced Territorial officers as a means of retaining their services?
I can at present add nothing to my reply on this subject to the hon. and gallant Member for the Kingswinford Division of Staffordshire.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is the greatest dissatisfaction among these officers at the way they are being treated?
I was not aware of that, but I will bear the case in mind.
I beg to give notice that I will at the earliest opportunity, if possible to-night, draw attention to the treatment of these veterinary surgeons of the Territorial Force.
Discharged Soldier (Royal Scots Fusiliers)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office, if his attention has been called to the case of a discharged soldier of the Royal Scots Fusiliers named R. Armstrong, who had been sent from Netley to Maybole poor-house; if there is no better provision than the poorhouse for such cases; if not whether he will consider the advisability of making such provision; and will he explain why the man was not sent to his wife and family?
I am having inquiry made into this case.
Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether Mrs. Rogers, of 4, Frederick Street, Chatham, is entitled to separation allowance under the following circumstances, namely, that 87206, Private M. Rogers, was serving in the Grenadier Guards at the outbreak of war, his father being then alive and supporting his wife and family; and that in December last the father died, leaving his widow and family without means, and since that date Private Rogers has been allowing his mother 3s. 6d. a week; and, if not, will he take steps to amend the Regulations so as to cover her case and enable a grant to be made?
I regret I can only refer the hon. Member to what I said in Debate on the 21st June as regards cases of this kind. The Select Committee, after very careful consideration, decided against such claims as far as grants from Army funds are concerned. The case will be one for the consideration of the new Statutory body.
Scottish Confirmations
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will, in advance of legislation promised with reference to the resealing in England of Scottish confirmations, including no English estate other than war loan, etc., authorise the Bank of England to accept Scottish confirmations as a good title to such public stocks, so as to relieve executors in Scotland from the payment of unnecessary costs?
Resealing is required by Statute (Section 12 of 21 and 22 Viet. c. 56), and my right hon. Friend has no power to dispense with it in anticipation of legislation.
Finance (No. 3) Bill
Bankrupt Estates (Income Tax)
asked whether in future the Income Tax officials in Scotland are to be instructed to collect Income Tax on deposit receipts in bankrupt estates even in cases where no dividends whatever are-paid to the creditors in those estates?
There is no necessity for the issue of any instructions in this matter. The interest referred to, as my right hon. Friend indicated in reply to my hon. Friend's question of the 3rd November, is chargeable to Income Tax under the general provisions of the law.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the advantage of the tax: on incomes of £121?
My hon. Friend has asked several questions on this matter-Perhaps he will confer with me as to the exact case to which he refers.
Controlled Munition Establishments
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has considered the combined effect upon controlled establishments of Section 4, Sub-section (1), and Section 5, Sub-section (1), of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, and Clause 34, Sub-section (1), of the Finance (No. 3) Bill, and whether, as a result of these sections, the controlled establishments, under the Munitions Act, would have to pay to the Exchequer all profits earned in excess of 20 per cent. above the standard amount of their profits, and also, in respect of the same business, under the Finance (No. 3) Bill, to pay to the Income Tax authorities 50 per cent. of profit so limited, whereas a non-controlled establishment will merely be liable to pay 50 per cent. of excess profits by way of Income Tax; and whether he will take steps to equalise these burdens or, in view of the provisions of the Finance (No. 3) Bill, to repeal the provisions of the Munitions Act for payment of excess profits to the Exchequer, and bring all such controlled establishments under the provisions of the Finance Act simply.
The Excess Profits Tax is limited by the Finance (No. 3) Bill, to accounting periods ended prior to 1st July, 1915, and consequently the results suggested in the question will not arise. The arrangements to be made as regards businesses which in virtue of the passing of the Munitions Act have become since 1st July, 1915, controlled establishments are receiving consideration.
Weekly Wage Earners
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to state approximately the number of weekly wage earners who are at present assessed for Income Tax by the General Commissioners; whether any serious defects have been discovered in this mode of assessment of such weekly wage earners; and whether these weekly wage earners who have hitherto been assessed for Income Tax by the General Commissioners will, under the Finance (No. 3) Bill, be assessed by the General Commissioners or by the surveyor of taxes?
As regards the first part of the question, I regret that no data are available on which to form an estimate of the number of weekly wage earners hitherto in assessment. It would, however, in any case be small relatively to the numbers in prospect under the provisions of the Finance Bill. As regards the remaining part of the question, I would refer the hon. and learned Member to the reply given him by my right hon. Friend on the 11th November.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question as to whether weekly wage earners hitherto assessed by the General Commissioners will continue to be assessed by them?
I think that that question was answered on the 11th November.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the second part of the question.
That is a matter which was dealt with in Debate on the Bill. It is not a question of any defect in the existing arrangements, but of the very large number of new wage earners who are being introduced.
Does the Government fully adhere to the pledge given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day, that it is not proposed to take anything from the General Commissioners which they had got, and that all employed persons with whom they now deal will be left to them?
The proposals in the Finance Bill deal practically entirely with a new type of Income Tax payer. My right hon. Friend has been in constant communication with those representing the General Commissioners, and probably the form of his proposals to the House of Commons embodied in consequential Amendments submitted will meet with their approval.
Co-Operative Societies (Taxation)
asked what objection exists to taxing the profits of cooperative societies at the source?
If Income Tax were assessed on the societies as such, instead of on the liable members, it would be necessary to repay much the greater part of the sum collected to the very numerous members who are exempt. Such a course would not only run counter to all principles of economy in administration, but would also occasion much unnecessary trouble to a considerable section of the public.
Salaries (Payment by War Loan)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered the advisability of paying in War Loan, in whole or in part, salaries or wages defrayed by the Treasury and whether he proposes to take any action in this respect?
As at present advised my right hon. Friend does not see his way to adopt this suggestion.
American Loan
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any information that Sir Ernest Cassel, a member of the Privy Council, recently subscribed in New York for £1,000,000 of British War Loan Stock at a discount bearing interest, at 5 per cent. free of Income Tax; and, if so, whether British subjects are entitled to subscribe for British War Loan Stock issued in America and thereby escape Income Tax?
My right hon. Friend does not consider it would be in the public interest to give details of individual subscriptions. As regards the second part of the question, the Treasury have already indicated in a Press notice of the 5th October, the undesirability of persons or firms in the United Kingdom purchasing the Anglo-French Loan issued in the United States, but they have not, of course, the same objection to British subjects investing in the loan funds already in America at the date of its issue. I would add that generally speaking holders of the loan resident in the United Kingdom will be liable to Income Tax on the dividends as in the case of income from other securities held abroad.
As to the return of this stock to the holder, £3 16s. British stock, at 5 per cent. in America, if it is held there, is it not the case that the owner will not pay the Income Tax?
But he will pay the Income Tax.
Not if it is taken in the name of an American company.
Questions
National Economy
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Local Government Board for Scotland issued a circular in August asking each local authority to appoint a committee to inquire and report what savings in public expenditure could be effected in the various departments of the local authority; if so, will he say what was the response to this request, and in how many instances such savings committees were appointed?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In answer to the second part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to him on Thursday of last week.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a different question, and that it is one referring to the appointment of the committees?
The answer applies to both the points. My hon. Friend will agree with me that it is very undesirable to spend unnecessary money and give unnecessary trouble with regard to statistics at the present time when staffs are depleted.
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether the Government have it in mind to commandeer prior to next spring, and thereafter apportion to the public, supplies of meat, bread, and petrol, or how otherwise is it proposed to prevent the waste of the two former to the ultimate detriment of the very poor and the increased export of gold abroad for their provision, or of the latter to the serious detriment of Service requirements; (2) whether, with the view of enforcing economy and reducing the export of gold, the Government will forthwith consider the desirability during the War of confiscating all undoubted luxuries imported from abroad upon their arrival at British ports, and of levying a fine of £100 for every offence upon all persons owning and using exclusively for their own pleasure expensive motor cars and carriages, wearing silks, satins, and costly furs and jewellery, or consuming in their houses or providing for their guests meals consisting of more than three courses; whether he realises that, in the event of legislation being passed without delay authorising such confiscation and the imposition of such fines, patriotic public opinion would usefully supplement and simplify the machinery for its enforcement; and (3) whether he will consider the desirability, in the interests of national economy and for the avoidance of waste, of making it a penal offence for any householder to introduce into his house, or any tradesman to sell to such householder, meat at the rate of more than ¾ lb. for each occupant, or for any person, whether civilian or soldier, to throw away, destroy, or permit to putrify or decay, any unconsumed meat or bread, the penalty in the case of soldiers being imposed upon and payable by the commanding officer of their regimental or other unit?
The particular measures which the hon. Member suggests are not at present regarded as expedient or likely to achieve the object which he has in mind.
May I ask whether recommendations on these lines are outside the purview of the Committee which is supposed to be sifting on the subject of national economy?
It is not only supposed to be sitting, but it is sitting; and those purposes are not outside its purview.
Does the Committee propose at an early date to make any recommendations in order to put a stop to the waste and extravagance that is going on in every direction throughout the country?
That is the subject which is engaging the earnest and continuous consideration of the Committee.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself admitted that owing to the pressure of work due to the Budget, the Committee had not met for two months?
No, no!
HON MEMBERS: "Yes!" and "He said so!"
German East Africa (Archdeacon Birley)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has been able to obtain any information about Archdeacon T. Birley, A.M.C.A., who was taken prisoner by the Germans in East Africa and interned in an unknown place and about whom no information is obtainable in ordinary channels?
The name of Thomas Howard Birley is included under the heading "Priests" in a list of prisoners of war in German East Africa furnished to the British naval authorities by the Governor of the German Protectorate in June last. It was stated at the time that all the prisoners were in satisfactory health, and that no cases of death from disease had occurred.
Railway Traffic (Scotland)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the London and North-Western Railway Company have refused to accept, since the middle of September or about that date, all traffic to or from Scotland, except perishables for markets and Government stores; if so, will he say whether this action has the sanction of his Department, and how trading is to be carried on if railway companies are permitted such action; and will he take any means to improve on this condition of matters?
I am forwarding my hon. Friend a copy of a letter from the London and North-Western Railway Company, from which it appears that, owing chiefly to the pressure of Admiralty coal and other Government traffic, restriction on traffic to and from Scotland were necessary between certain dates, but that the coal traffic has now been partially diverted.
Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why the London and North-Western Railway Company should be more hampered by this traffic than the Scottish railways? Is it due to less efficient management on the part of the London and North-Western?
I could not undertake to assess the amount of ability as between the Scottish and the English railways. There is of necessity a greater amount of traffic on the London and North-Western Railway than on the Scottish railways.
Is it not a fact that the Scotch really have to come bogging to poor England for locomotives to haul their traffic?
Alien Enemies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the case of the firm of A. Wulfing and Company, also trading as the Sanatogen Company, at 12, Chenies Street, London, W.C.; whether the sole member of this firm is Johann A. von Wulfing, a German alien enemy resident in Berlin; whether the London manager of this business is one Max Muller, a German alien enemy of military age resident in England; whether this firm has received a licence to trade in this country, and, if so, for what reason and on what terms; and whether he will take steps under the Trading with the Enemy Acts to appoint a controller of this business, with the powers of a receiver and manager, for the purpose of winding up the business and selling it to a British company or British subjects?
The proprietor and manager of A. Wulfing and Company are as stated in the hon. and learned Member's question. No licence to trade has been granted to the firm, and having regard to the provisions of paragraph 6 of the Trading with the Enemy Proclamation of the 9th September, no such licence would appear to be necessary to enable the branch of the business in this country to be carried on. In October last year I appointed an Inspector of the business, and subsequently I appointed a Supervisor in accordance with the Trading with the Enemy Acts in order to ensure that no trading with the enemy takes place, and that the profits are paid over to the Public Trustee as custodian of enemy property. As at present advised, I do not think it necessary to apply to the Court to appoint a Controller.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of the firm of A. Wulfing and Company, also trading as the Sanatogen Company, of 12, Chenies Street, London, W.C.; whether the sole member of this firm is Johann A. von Wulfing, a German alien enemy resident in Berlin; whether the London manager of this business is one Max Muller, a German alien enemy of military age resident in England; and whether, in view of the fact that there are British subjects capable of managing this business if required, there is any adequate reason why Max Muller should not be interned?
As explained by the President of the Board of Trade in reply to an earlier question, the London business of the Sanatogen Company is now independently carried on in the interests of this country under a British supervisor appointed by the Board of Trade, and any profits are paid over to the Public Trustee. The case of the individual referred to was carefully considered by the Advisory Committee, who, in view of the special circumstances, recommended that he should be exempted from internment on condition that a bond for £1,000 for his good behaviour was entered into by two British sureties.
Are there not British subjects just as capable of carrying on this business as this German alien enemy?
He is not carrying on the business. It is being carried on under a British supervisor. As regards this individual I apprehend that he has special knowledge of the special processes involved.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire and ascertain whether there are not British subjects perfectly well able, at least as well able as this alien enemy, to manage this business?
I have already made some inquiries, I will make more. I can assure the hon. Member if that is so there will certainly be no reason for keeping this Gentleman uninterned.
Who will get any benefit from these profits after the War is over?
The Prime Minister has explained that that is a matter which is in contemplation of being dealt with at the end of the War.
Is Sanatogen a necessity for the country? Are there not British products which could take its place equally well?
I believe it depends on whether we can manage to preserve good nerve.
Postal Rates and Charges
asked the Postmaster-General if he will state when he proposes to issue a revised postal guide containing the recent alterations in the rates and charges of the postal, telegraph, and telephone services?
The Post Office Guide is issued quarterly, and a new edition giving the revised rates will be published on the 1st of January next. It is impracticable to arrange for an earlier issue.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of issuing some pamphlet to the post offices, so that the public may get to know what the changes are, as they are very much inconvenienced at the present time from not knowing?
Yes, I will consider that. I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for calling my attention to the matter.
Cottage Property
asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the effect of reassessing cottage property during the present War on the cost of living in working-class houeholds; if he is aware, for instance, that the assessment committee of the North Bierley Board of Guardians, by raising the assessment of a number of cottages from £8 a year to £9 a year and thereby abolishing the discount for collection which is allowed on account of property rated at not more than £8 per year, has imposed an additional charge for rates equal to the sum of 10d. per week on the cottages in question; and whether, having regard to the burden now borne in working-class households by reason of high prices, he will circularise assessment authorities advising them to refrain from increasing assessments on cottage property at present?
I learn that a revision of the assessments of property in the union has been in progress for some time and is nearing completion. Persons aggrieved by the increase in their assessments can appeal against the new figures. I cannot at present undertake to advise assessment authorities in the sense suggested by the hon. Member, but I will look further into the question.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that the owners of cottage property in Upperton Road, Plaistow, have placed the collecting of the rent since the War commenced in the hands of certified bailiffs; that notice has been given to tenants that on and after Monday, 8th November, rents will be increased from 8s. 6d. per week to 10s.; if he is aware that a soldier's wife lives in one of the houses and that twelve months ago the rent of her house was 8s. per week; and if he intends taking action in the matter?
The hon. Member has been good enough to send me particulars of the cases to which he refers, and I am having inquiries made into them.
Housing Loans (Ireland)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received any of the protests made by the Public Boards' Trade Council and other local bodies in Dublin against the action of the Local Government Board in delaying the housing of the working classes; whether he is aware that the Dublin Corporation have acquired sites and condemned and demolished thousands of insanitary dwellings within the last two years; and, as this was done in the belief that the Local Government Board would sanction the loans to build houses for the working classes, will he state whether his Board will withdraw their opposition and thus allow the corporation to receive Grants sufficient to enable them to continue the housing of the workers, and if he can state when they will receive the money?
At a meeting of the corporation held on the 25th October last a resolution was passed protesting against the action of the Local Government Board in not having induced the Treasury to sanction certain housing loans within the last two years. The corporation have acquired sites and demolished houses, and since the commencement of the War loans have received the sanction both of the Board and the Treasury amounting to £75,000 in respect of some large building schemes. Regarding more recent schemes, loans to defray compensation claims have been sanctioned, but the question of sanctioning further loans for the erection of houses has been deferred for the present in accordance with the Board's circular of the 4th May last conveying the Treasury restrictions as to capital issues; this circular applies to all local authorities.
Public Accounts Committee
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state in what form and at what period the accounts of payments made from moneys provided by Votes of Credit in the financial year 1914–15 will be presented to the Public Accounts Committee?
The Appropriation Account of the Vote of Credit for 1914–15 will be brought before the Public Accounts Committee, together with the other Appropriation Accounts for that year, in the usual way early next Session. It will be rendered as set out in the Treasury Minute of the 20th August, 1914, subject to certain modifications embodied in a further Treasury Minute which will be presented shortly.
May I take it, then, that so far as the Public Accounts Committee is concerned the control of this House over public expenditure will not be lessened?
It will not, Sir.
Courts Martial (Sentences of Death)
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he will direct that, where a person is sentenced to death under the Defence of the Realm (Consolidation) Act, 1914, upon conviction on indictment, and his appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal is dismissed, the sentence shall not be carried into effect until the lapse of such period as shall enable an appeal to the clemency of the Crown to be made and considered; and (2) whether he will direct that in all cases of persons sentenced to death in this country by courts-martial such period shall elapse between the confirmation and execution of the sentence as shall enable an appeal to the clemency of the Crown to be made and considered?
In the cases referred to, after the dismissal of an appeal reasonable time is allowed to elapse during which any application for the clemency of the Crown can be made and considered.
asked the Prime Minister if he will state what Secretary of State is responsible for advising His Majesty's with respect to the prerogative of mercy in cases of persons sentenced to death in this country by courts-martial and upon conviction on indictment under the Defence of the Realm (Consolidation) Act, 1914, respectively?
In the first cases referred to in the question, the responsibility rests with the Secretary of State for War; in the second, with the Home Secretary.
Committee of Imperial Defence
asked the Prime Minister what is the present role, in the prosecution of the War, of the Committee of Imperial Defence; what is its present composition and how often does it meet; what are the matters on which it advises; whether it was its duty to report at the start of the War on the sufficiency of equipment and munitions, and also on the anticipated strength of the British Expeditionary Force; and, in that case, whether its advice coincided with the position in which the country found itself in August, 1914, or with the preparations which have since been necessarily made to carry on the War?
The functions of the Committee of Imperial Defence have in the main been absorbed by the War Committee, the members of which were announced by me in the House on 11th November. The War Committee meets several times a week as a rule. The particular questions referred to in the fourth part of the question were at the start of the War entirely within the sphere of responsibility of the War Office, and the Committee of Imperial Defence had no duties in connection with them unless asked for their advice by the responsible Department.
Consular Service
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the dissatisfaction felt in this country with the Consular service before the War, he will agree to the appointment of a business Committee of the House of Commons to consider and report on the question of the relations of the Consular service to the trading community, more especially with the object of being prepared for after-war competition and conditions?
I would remind my hon. Friend that the organisation of the Consular service has only recently been investigated by the Royal Commission on the Civil Service, and that the question of the relations of the service to the trading community was dealt with in the Report. The whole subject, however, is receiving the careful attention of His Majesty's Government, and I do not think it necessary to appoint a further Committee.
Munitions
Cammel Laird and Company (Patrol Men)
asked the Minister of Munitions if the patrol men at Cammel Laird and Company, of Birkenhead, a controlled establishment, have to perform duty every other Sunday without pay; if the night patrol men are not paid for weekend duty, and have to put in five hours a week more than the day men without pay; and, if so, will he take steps to have these things put on a fairer basis?
My right hon. Friend has made inquiries of the firm on this subject, and is informed that the patrol men in question on day duty are engaged at a weekly wage conditional upon their working each alternate week-end. Should they be required to work at other week-ends they are paid for such extra duty. The night men are engaged and paid weekly for seven nights per week with one night's holiday every four weeks, and should they be required to work any additional hours they are paid for same. The hours worked by the day patrol men vary from those of the night men, inasmuch as the former have to move about the works all day, while the latter only patrol for two hours at a time with intervals of two hours rest. It is understood from the firm that there-is no difficulty in bringing a grievance before the management, and in these circumstances my right hon. Friend considers that this course should be adopted in the first instance if there is felt to be any grievance in this case.
Valuation Department Staff
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the dismissals from the Valuation Department, he would be willing to employ in his Department such dismissed officials who, being ineligible for military service, have shown a capacity for work of organisation?
Applications for employment made by ex-officials of the Land Valuation Department, who are ineligible for military service, will always receive careful consideration in the event of suitable vacancies occurring. It must, however, be remembered that a large number of the posts in the Ministry, other than those of a purely subordinate character, require some technical experience.
Employment of Women (Scotland)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been called to the fact that the women being-employed on munitions in the Glasgow and West of Scotland district are almost wholly taken from the working classes who have heretofore been engaged in industrial employment; that the other classes of trade, such as carpet weaving and muslin manufacturing in which these women had been engaged, have become depleted of workers; whether he is aware that numbers of women who had not before worked in industrial employment offered themselves for munition work and were refused; that such women have been accepted in Dundee and Aberdeen with most successful results; and whether he will advise the munitions employers throughout the country to engage women not formerly in industrial employment, so that the whole body of labour may be increased in the country?.
My right hon. Friend's, attention has been called to this matter, and measures for dealing with the difficulty referred to by my hon. Friend are being taken in conjunction with the Board of Trade.
May I ask whether the Department has recommended that the services of women who have not before been engaged in industrial work should be utilised?
reply was inaudible.
Questions
Central Africa (Neutralisation)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the expressed inability of France, intimated on the 28th September, 1914, to act in accordance with Article 11 of the Berlin Act which provides for the neutralisation of Central Africa, he will say whether the other articles of the same Act must still be regarded as binding on the signatories?
As I informed the hon. Gentleman on 21st September, the provisions of the Berlin Act have the same validity to-day as before the War.
asked whether the obligation imposed on the signatories of the Berlin Act to respect Article VI. of that instrument still remains effective; and whether there is actually at the present time any restriction on the importation of arms, ammunition, and spirits into Central Africa?
The answer is in the affirmative.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the copies of correspondence relative to the neutralisation of Central Africa, placed in the Library of this House on 9th November, contains less than 450 words; and whether, in view of the interest taken in this subject, the correspondence can now be published?
The hon. Member for Blackburn asked for the publication of certain specified documents. These documents have been placed in the Library. The only other diplomatic correspondence on the subject consists of communications with the French and Belgian Governments. I have no objection to placing copies in the Library, but the consent of the other Governments would have to be obtained.
In view of the very great interest felt in this question abroad, as well as by a certain number of people at home, will the Noble Lord obtain, if possible, the consent of the other Governments to the publication of the documents?
The matter will be considered.
Does the Noble Lord seriously suggest that the neutralisation of Central Africa has any validity at the present moment?
Certainly; the Berlin Act remains in force, except so far as it has been abrogated.
Is it not far better that the words to which the hon. Member refers should remain in oblivion?
All these questions arise from profound ignorance of the real facts of the case.
asked which members of the Cabinet were consulted with regard to the proposal to neutralise Central Africa presented by the Spanish Government in August, 1914; which members of the Cabinet were consulted with regard to the proposal to neutralise Central Africa presented by the United States Ambassador on the 24th September, 1914; what was the date and the purport of the decision of the Committee of Imperial Defence on this question; and were the Ministers consulted on these three occasions all aware of our obligations towards the natives and towards the signatories of the Berlin Act when they assented to the proposals of the Foreign Office?
As regards the first two branches of the question, I can add nothing to the answer given to the hon. Gentleman on October 28th, except that the Ministers who considered this question were the Secretary of State for the Colonies, the First Lord of the Admiralty, the Secretary of State for War, and my right hon. Friend; nor, as regards the last branch, to the answer given to the hon. Member for North Somerset on July 28th regarding the extent of the obligation assumed in this matter by the signatories of the Berlin Act. The views of the Sub-Committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence on the subject were given to the Government on two occasions—in November, 1898, and January, 1911.
Barber Steamship Company
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to give further information in regard to the alleged action of the Barber Steamship Company, of New York, and the conveyance of German goods from Rotterdam to New York, and thence to the United Kingdom?
I am informed by the Barber Steamship Company that they have only had two steamers from Rotterdam to the United States of America since the beginning of the War, and none since March last. Nothing was imported on either of the two steamers mentioned, and consequently nothing carried by their vessels can have been re-shipped to this country. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me this opportunity of removing an undeserved slur on the reputation of an honourable firm.
Maritime Rights (Dispatches)
asked when His Majesty's Government proposes to lay before Parliament Papers containing the Foreign Office dispatches addressed to foreign Governments, together with the replies thereto, on questions arising from the War and the exercise of maritime rights, such as those which have already been from time to time partially published in the daily Press?
If the hon. Member will be good enough to specify any particular Papers to which he refers, I will see what can be done as to laying them upon the Table, with due regard to economy and other public interests.
Why should Parliament not have all these dispatches? Why should there be this secrecy on the part of the Foreign Office? Why should not all these Papers be laid?
I may have misunderstood my hon. Friend's question. I understood him to complain that certain dispatches which had been published in the daily papers had not been laid on the Table of the House; therefore no question as to secrecy arises in connection with these dispatches. If I misunderstood my hon. Friend, perhaps he will put down another question to make more clear what he desires.
I think my Noble Friend is referring to a previous question of mine which has nothing to do with this question. But I will put another question on the Paper.
Captured Contraband (Payments)
asked, touching the statement in the Foreign Office Memorandum of 17th June, 1915, published in the daily Press of 25th June, and stating that His Majesty's Government had then paid to American owners of cotton captured or detained at sea sums exceeding £450,000, and had then found the cotton claimed by Swedish or Dutch firms, what was the exact sum then so paid and to whom; whether any and, if so, what other sums have been paid in similar circumstances in respect of other goods than cotton, either before or subsequent to that payment; and what is the total of all sums so paid up to date in respect of all goods whatever?
From the question it would appear as though His Majesty's Government had made payments both to American and to Swedish or Dutch firms for the same cotton. This is quite erroneous. The procedure adopted has been to pay, under expert advice, only to-the holders of the original bill of lading, or, failing the production of such documents, against bank guarantees securing His Majesty's Government against any future claims arising out of the production of the original documents. The exact sum paid, under the conditions described, up to the date mentioned in the question, was £449,789 1s. 4d., which was entirely paid to American shippers. As no circumstances of the nature suggested by the hon. Member have arisen, the answer to the second part is in the negative. The total amount of disbursements made up to date is not at present available.
Naval Lieutenants (Gunnery)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many lieutenants (gunnery) have been appointed from the mercantile marine and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve since the outbreak of the War to 1st September, 1915, and how many lieutenants (gunnery) have been appointed during the like period from the chief gunners and gunners of His Majesty's Navy on the active list; whether he is Aware that when the rank of lieutenant (gunnery) was created on the 28th March, 1903, there were 31 lieutenants (gunnery) appointed and that the number of chief gunners was then 32 and of gunners 719, or 812 in all, and that on the 1st September, 1915, there were only 33 lieutenants (gunnery), whilst the number of chief gunners had increased to 236 and of gunners to 1,069, or 1,338 in all; and will he take steps to increase the number of lieutenants (gunnery), so that the proportion of lieutenants to chief gunners and gunners shall be maintained at least at the ratio at which it stood on the 28th March, 1903?
Assuming that the first part of the question refers to the number of lieutenants, Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve performing gunnery duties in the Royal Navy, the reply is that approximately 40 lieutenants of the Royal Naval Reserve are so employed, and no lieutenants of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. The number of chief gunners and gunners promoted to lieutenant in the period mentioned is six, three of whom have been specially promoted for service in action, In addition, between the outbreak of War and the 1st September, 1915, 18 mates, formerly warrant officers or petty officers, have been promoted to lieutenant, and 122 promotions to mate from warrant officers and petty officers have been made. In 1903 there were 31 lieutenants promoted from chief gunners, 62 chief gunners, and 719 gunners. On 1st September last the figures were 40,238 and 1,066 respectively. As regards the last part of the question, it cannot be admitted that promotion should be governed solely by a rule of proportion. Length of service must play a large part.
German Trade (Tonnage Detained)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, touching His Majesty's Order in Council of 11th March, 1915, and His Majesty's decision thereby announced to adopt further measures in order to prevent commodities of any kind from reaching or leaving Germany, will he state, or give a Return stating, how many ships of how much aggregate tonnage have since that date been detained by the vessels of His Majesty's Fleet, or by other vessels having His Majesty's commission, on suspicion of carrying such commodities to or from Germany, and how many of such detained ships of how much aggregate tonnage have had to be released to continue their voyage because of licences issued to them, or of orders for their release emanating from His Majesty's Government; or, alternatively, will he say what proportion of the total ships and of the aggregate tonnage so detained since that date has been so released; and whether the total so released amounts to more than half the ships or tonnage detained?
To give an answer to my hon. Friend's question would, I am afraid, involve an expenditure of time and labour which I scarcely think would be justifiable at the present juncture.
Chief Carpenters (Royal Navy)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, having regard to the way in which the chief carpenters of His Majesty's Navy have discharged their duties during the War, he will now grant them the extra 1s. a day increase in pay on their entering on their fifteenth year of service and thus place them in the same position as gunners, seamen-gunners, signal boatswains, boatswains, and other warrant officers in His Majesty's Navy?
It is not proposed to make any change in the scale of pay of carpenters in the Royal Navy.
British Petroleum Company
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Admiralty have recently contracted with the British Petroleum Company for 300,000 tons of fuel oil; whether he is aware that Germans are largely interested in this company even if they do not control it; whether this company is actually delivering oil in vessels which were until recently flying the German flag; whether he is aware that this oil can be obtained from purely British firms and why, under these circumstances, contracts are placed with firms in which Germans are interested?
The oil in question is obtained from a large American producing company, and could not be procured of the required quantity and quality from purely British firms. The British Petroleum Company have for a number of years acted as agents for the American company in question. They do not freight or handle the oil at any stage, but merely deal with the correspondence and remission of payments. The position of the British Petroleum Company, though it was not specified by name, was fully explained in my reply of the 25th November last to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Aston Manor. I shall be happy to send my hon. Friend a copy of that answer. So far as I am aware, the British Petroleum Company is not employing for any purpose vessels which have recently down the German flag.
Officers' Promotion
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why captains now doing major's work in the Artillery at the front do not receive the pay of the rank or, after long service, promotion, whilst subalterns replacing seniors in the position of a captain of a battery become entitled, after one month in that position, to the temporary rank of captain, and thus obtain the same rank and pay as those in command of batteries; and is it for the purpose of economy, or is it intended to promote direct from captain to colonel?
I presume the hon. Gentleman is referring to four-gun batteries which, under their establishment, can be commanded by either a captain or a major. If such a battery is in command of a captain, he cannot be considered to be doing a major's work. In a six-gun battery, on the other hand, the establishment provides for a major to command. The analogy suggested in the question between the treatment of a subaltern replacing temporarily a captain, and of a captain in command of a four-gun battery is not correct. It is not intended to promote direct from captain to lieutenant-colonel.
Is it not the fact that captains who take the place of majors who have been killed are left for a long period still in the position of captain, with only the rank and pay of major?
As I have often explained in this House, the duties of captain and major are interchangeable. To say that because a captain, being in command of these four-gun batteries is doing major's work would not be true. If a captain were placed in command of a six-gun battery then it would be true to say that that captain ought to be promoted to major within a reasonable time.
Retrenchment Committee
I beg to ask the Prime Minister a question of which I have given him private notice: Whether he has considered the suggestion that as the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot at present preside over the Public Retrenchment Committee owing to the pressure of business, the Committee should immediately resume its sittings under the chairmanship of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, with an addition of Irish Members, for the consideration of possible economies in the Irish Departments of administration?
The Retrenchment Committee is a totally different thing from the Finance Committee of the Cabinet. In answer to the hon. Gentleman, the reply is in the affirmative.
Persia
Outrages on Allies' Consular Officers
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a question of which I have given him private notice; Whether he can give the House any information with regard to the critical situation in Persia?
As will be seen from to-day's Press, various outrages have recently taken place on His Majesty's Consular Officers in Persia; and, in view of all that has happened and the presence of German and Austrian officers in Persia, we have not been without apprehension for the safety even of British and Allied Legations and subjects at Teheran. For this reason some Russian reinforcements have advanced towards the capital as the only means of giving protection. The Persian Government have been expressly informed of the pacific intentions of the troops, whose one aim is to afford protection to the foreign colonies in case of need. Certain proposals have recently been received from the Persian Government, and are engaging the attention of the British and Russian Governments. As in the past, so now, His Majesty's Government's one desire is to maintain the most friendly relations with the Persian Government, provided the latter make real efforts to prevent attempts being made by our enemies on British and Allied officials in that country. It must be remembered that the whole trouble comes from the proceedings of German and Austrian officers and agents in Persia
Questions
Albert Hall Meeting
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department a question of which I have given him private notice: Whether his attention has been called to a meeting proposed to be held in the Albert Hall on Thursday next, which appears calculated to convey a wholly false impression of the unity of the country in the face of the enemy; also whether the Government intends to take any steps to forbid the meeting?
Prussianism!
I understand that the proprietors of the Albert Hall were induced to let the building on the representation that it was to be used for a patriotic meeting. They have since learnt with surprise that it is intended to use it for the purpose of denouncing the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary. I regret that the promoters can find no better way of exhibiting their patriotism than by giving a false impression that the Government is not generally supported in the prosecution of the War. To attempt to stop such a meeting by Government action would be to give it a wholly false importance. The proprietors of the Albert Hall will doubtless consider the propriety of permitting their building to be used for such a purpose at such a time.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know that the authorities of the Albert Hall have already cancelled the meeting? I have seen a statement to that effect in the Press this afternoon.
I had not heard of it.
Has the Press Bureau suggested a joint attack upon this meeting in the Press?
No, Sir; the Press Bureau has made no such suggestion.
Why is it that the whole of the "Cocoa" Press to-day has an attack upon this meeting?
National Insurance Act
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether his attention has been drawn to the opinion expressed by the Edinburgh, Leith, and District Friendly Societies Council to the effect that regulations under the Act were framed so as to combine a maximum risk of error with a minimum of convenience, and that the Act in certain specified respects was financially unsound; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I understand that an interview has been arranged for an early date between the Scottish Insurance Commissioners and the body referred to, and an opportunity will thus arise for removing any misconceptions entertained by the latter as to the administration or finances of the Acts.
Will that interview give an opportunity for removing misunderstandings in the minds of the Commissioners?
It will allow of an interchange of ideas.
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, if his attention has been called to a recommendation of the medical benefit sub-committee of the Lancashire insurance committee that an insured person shall not call upon the services of a medical practitioner on Sundays except in cases of emergency; if he will state whether the Insurance Commissioners were consulted on this question; and, if so, whether they are in favour of insured persons being placed at a disadvantage as to medical treatment as compared with uninsured persons?
My attention had not previously been called to the recommendations referred to. I am informed, however, that it was never adopted by the insurance committee; and the latter part of the question does not, therefore, arise.
Lydney Harbour (Railway By-Laws)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Severn and Wye and Severn Bridge Joint Railway Company have lately published what purport to be by-laws substantially reducing the requisite depth of high water in the lock, lower dock, canal, and basin constituting the docks at Lydney, in the county of Gloucester, thereby excluding therefrom vessels of the same draft and tonnage as have been accommodated at Lydney Harbour ever since the passage of the Great Western and Midland Railway Companies (Severn and Wye and Severn Bridge Railway) Act, 1894, and thus exonerating themselves from the necessary dredging operations which have been conducted heretofore, and that such action has been taken without any Government authority, contrary both to the letter and to the spirit of the above-mentioned Act, and especially of Section 22 (1) thereof, and to the threatened serious detriment of the tin-plate, coal, and other local industries; and what action the Board proposes to take in the matter in the interests and for the protection of local traders?
The answer will be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT.—[ See Written Answers this date. ]
Will the right hon. Gentleman receive a deputation of local traders on this matter?
When my hon. Friend has the answer he will see that at the moment it is not necessary. If the hon. Gentleman presses the point afterwards I shall be very glad to discuss the matter.
Indictments Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether it is proposed to proceed with the Indictments Bill; and, if so, when the Second Reading will be taken?
I cannot fix a date, but I hope that the Second Reading of this Bill may be taken shortly.
Consular Service
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the opinion of the Board of Trade is first obtained in respect of the commercial fitness of all candidates for consular appointments; and if he will inform the House upon what principle generally speaking these appointments are made?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the Fifth Report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service for the information he seeks.
Does the principle of nomination still hold with regard to the appointment of these Consuls?
Speaking from recollection, I do not think that any change has been made pending the conclusion of the War.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there are any vacant posts in the British Consular Service, apart from those in enemy countries; and whether he proposes to fill up not merely these, but also those falling vacant or to be filled up in future, by representatives with approved trade and commercial experience?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Examinations for the various branches of the salaried Consular Services are suspended and are not likely to be resumed until after the War. My hon. Friend will find that his suggestion is not favoured by the Royal Commission, who recommend the principle of "taking young men at an age corresponding to a definite stage in the educational system of the country and then training them for their work." My right hon. Friend agrees in this recommendation.
New Members Sworn
Albert Holden Illingworth, esquire, for County of Lancaster (South-East) (Hey-wood Division).
James Herbert Cory, esquire, for Borough of Cardiff.
Lieut. Arthur Robert Mills, commonly called the Honourable Arthur Robert Mills, for County of Middlesex (Uxbridge Division).
Bill Presented
Street Collections (Regulation) (Scotland) Bill,—"to provide for the regulation of Street Collections in Burghs in Scotland." Presented by Mr. MCKINNON WOOD; supported by the Lord Advocate; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 157.]
Orders of the Day
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation—No. 2) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
National Insurance Act
I wish to take this opportunity of drawing attention to the Government circular issued on behalf of the naval and military authorities, giving the terms of dependants' allowances. I regret to find in that document a distinct unfriendliness to the great thrift institutions, which the Government themselves have brought into being. It is very strange at this time, when deficiencies are disclosed in the finance of the Insurance Act, that the Government should have taken this opportunity to introduce conditions into dependants' allowances which will tend to make that Act distinctly unpopular amongst the poorest part of the community. The effect of the War upon the Insurance Act will be severe. Finance will be found to sustain the Stock Exchange, Cotton Exchange and other businesses, and this Vote of Credit might be extended, so far as the Resolution goes, to the relief of distress in this country. But surely it is remarkable that the Government at this time, far from devising some means of helping the Insurance Act, should seek by these Resolutions to give it, what will be considered by the insured persons, a somewhat staggering blow. The effect of the War upon the Act generally, I presume, would not be allowed as a subject in order by the Chair, but I might remind the House that the German scheme is deliberately framed to maintain itself during war, whereas our scheme is a peace scheme, and if the finances of the Act are not in a position to sustain the societies, and to give the full benefits during the time of peace, there is no doubt in future, when the full effects of this War are felt by the friendly societies, there will be serious deficiencies. At the present time many of the funds are found to be somewhat deficient, and it should be remembered that the actuaries, in framing the basis of that Act, did not contemplate that the healthiest part of the community would be withdrawn to the fighting ranks, leaving the sick and consumptive people in un-diminished numbers to the care of the Insurance Act.
I would like to point out to the military Members of this House what has turned out to be a very unsatisfactory result, and that is that when men have been enlisted and exposed to weather, and have been found to develop consumption, they find a waiting list of civilians in front of them, looking forward to be admitted within the portals of a sanatorium institution. A circular was issued by the authorities urging these committees to expedite the arrangements for these consumptives who return from the Forces. But I want to ask whether the committees are to give any preferential treatment. In London at the present time there are some hundreds upon the waiting list, recommended for treatment in the sanatoriums, but there are no places for them, and there are no funds available to send them to such institutions. Now the soldiers are coming back, and I want to ask my right hon. Friends, representing both the Army and the Navy on the Front Bench, whether they are satisfied with the position that men who have developed consumption, largely as a result of exposure to the weather, should stand behind a number of civilians or whether they want them to go in front? This is a very serious problem. The healthiest men are taken for the Army, and no consumptive can pass the doctor; therefore the whole burden of the sanatorium treatment remains upon the Act. Many hundreds of thousands of healthy men who were not expected to take any benefits from the Act have enlisted in the Army. Their contributions are withdrawn; they do not even contribute under the War Office and Navy scheme, which has a separate arrangement for men who join the Forces. Under that scheme they do not contribute anything to the sanatorium benefits while in the Army or Navy. These men are coming under the already overburdened scheme in increasing numbers. The civilians have to keep the sanatorium benefit going, while the healthiest lives are in the Army and Navy, and it is a very painful position, indeed, to say how the order of priority should be given, when the men return from the front. Of course, for the man who has been risking his life for the country we have every sympathy, and there are people on the waiting list, who have been there for weeks, perhaps for months. Is the preference to be given chronologically, or with the idea of service to the country?
4.0 P.M.
I want to appeal to the Government for better consideration for this great scheme. I do it largely in the interests of the Army and Navy. I see some hon. and gallant Members present who are connected with the fighting forces. I want to draw attention to the fact that the insured persons left in this country will be the parents of the next generation. There is a large proportion of consumptives and sick people, and we may have another war. How are we going to fight a war in a generation from now, unless we stamp out this evil of consumption? However urgent it was in time of peace to grapple with consumption, and to defeat that horrible disease, it is still more urgent in View of the troublesome conflicts in which we are now engaged, and may be in the future. I therefore suggest a portion of this Vote could not be better spent—and I hope the Army and Navy will consider I am speaking in their interests—than with the idea of stamping out consumption and maintaining the health of the population who remain at home. One would look forward, I think, with dismay to any future war if instead of stamping out consumption we allowed the disease to grow. At the present time we are going backwards relatively in proportion to the population. I quite admit that the actuaries never contemplated a great war. They had not sufficient data for times of peace with regard to female members, and it is generally admitted that the funds are not sufficient to pay the benefits scheduled under the Act. I submit a prolonged war like this will have a marked effect on the male insured persons. I think, therefore, this is the time the Government should be looking to the future. They have chosen this time to do what, I think, really cannot be defended, and that is to take away the disablement benefit and reckon it as a diminution of the allowances they pay. In the scheme both the Navy and the Army authorities make a provision which, I think, some Members of the House will challenge as being generally insufficient. I will leave that point to those hon. Members who have given special attention to it, and I will deal only with the one point I am raising. Paragraph ( d ) states that disablement and sickness benefit under the National Health Insurance Act and the Old Age Pensions Act are to be reckoned in diminution of these benefits. I submit that that cannot be the attitude of the Government if they consider this question fully. These people have paid for that benefit. The Government came down on these working people, and for the last few years they have made a forcible deduction from their wages and a forcible contribution has been placed upon their employers. I submit that both the employers and employed alike are entitled to regard that as a separate business transaction. Why should the Government seek to put those insured persons who have made these sacrifices compulsorily on a level with uninsured people who have not made any contribution at all? The basis of the Act was that this should be an additional benefit and not in substitution of the Poor Law or any other means. It was intended to enable these poor people to stay in their homes, and now we find that the Government are going to save this 5s. where these poor men and women happen to be in receipt of a disablement benefit for which they and their employers have paid. I do not believe the Government will save much by this attack upon the Insurance Act, because when poor insured persons find that by renouncing the benefits from their own society they can get the 5s. from the State, they will have a friendly feeling towards their fellow members, and will decide to come upon the Government funds through the Army and Navy dependants' allowance rather than upon their own society.
The experience of the Insurance Act has been that there is an extraordinary amount of sickness on the part of married women who work under the Insurance Act. In many societies these married working women are receiving in partial sickness pay 300 per cent. of the actual benefit, and it is not malingering. The original estimate formed in this House about malingering has been falsified, and there is scarcely any at all under the Insurance Act. A poor woman receiving 5s. as permanent disablement benefit under the Insurance Act does not feel pauperised by taking it, because she has contributed to it as well as her employer. She then finds that she is entitled under this scheme from the Navy or the Army to another 5s., and I think 10s. is little enough for a hard working woman of that description with health much inferior to the average. But the Government propose that if she draws her 5s. from the insurance society they will pay her nothing. If she renounces the 5s. from the insurance society then she can claim the 5s. from the Government. I ask those who represent the Government to take a. larger view. They both know the Insurance Act well, and they know that this benefit is a deferred benefit. To me it was one of the best features of the Act, and men were tempted to accept the Act because they were going to come for immediate benefit in temporary sickness on the permanent disablement benefit. For this they had to qualify by two years' subscription. I always thought that this was one of the best features of the Act, and I was very pleased that the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day had the courage to put this benefit into the Act, which means so much to the poor women as they get old. The servant girl and the textile married woman look forward to this benefit at a time when they most need it.
My right hon. Friend who represents the Navy (Dr. Macnamara) was the first to pen his name to this proposal, and he has got a very clear view of the working of this Act. The hon. Gentleman who represents the Army (Mr. Forster) was one of the most diligent attenders at the Debates in this House on this subject, and he expressed himself in favour of this benefit; in fact, he contributed to the discussion in a way which earned for him an admiration which was not confined to his own side in politics. Therefore I confidently appeal to those who represent the Government, because I know that they have got a good deal of sympathy for this particular benefit. I do not ask them now to get up on the spur of the moment and pledge their Department, but I ask them to take a view which will not be merely confined to saving the funds of their office. This is a serious thing, and I know that it will need all the enthusiasm and all the devotion of the members and officials of these approved societies to keep them strong, healthy and vigorous. What has been proposed by the Government will have a disheartening result, because it will mean that wherever it applies some of the poor people will declare the Insurance Act a swindle, or else they will declare the dependants allowance scheme a swindle. They will not go into the niceties of things, but will simply say that they have been juggled with and instead of getting two 5s. a week they will only get one 5s. This change has come at a very inconvenient time. Recruiting is taking away a large number of the members of these societies and many of these men will return weary and jaded with their health impaired in many cases. Many doctors and medical students are being pressed to join the forces, and the consequence will be that there will arise an increasingly difficult problem with regard to the medical service. I am only warning the House as to what we may have to battle with in later years, as I know all these things are incidental to the prosecution of a great War. With regard to drugs and chemists we have not been able to prevent the prices of food and drugs going up, and the consequence is that we shall have to submit to an entire revision of the way in which chemists are treated. I should have thought that this was particularly the time when the Government would have given some message of hope to these societies. Therefore, it is doubly disappointing to see a scheme like this fathered by the Government. I put a question on this matter some time ago, and I appealed to the hon. Member representing the Insurance Commissioners to help me to press this point upon the Army and Navy authorities. I understand his reply was that this is a matter for the Army and Navy authorities to settle, and I make no complaint on that score. This is a very complicated Act to administer, and some of the very best Commissioners have gone, and no doubt under the circumstances the hon. Member did not feel at liberty to press his views upon the Army and Navy authorities; consequently I make this appeal to the Government to-day.
It is true that some hon. Members interested in this question have interviewed some members of the Government, but I think an appeal should be made in this House, and I hope hon. Members will support me. I particularly appeal to the members of the Labour party in this House, because this proposal will not only make the Insurance Act unpopular, but it will deprive these poor people of a benefit of 5s. a week. With members of approved societies and trade unions there can only be one view amongst insured persons or officials of those unions with regard to the taking of this benefit. This is the only opportunity we have had of raising this question. I notice that it is not in order at this stage to review the acts of the Commissioners or the general working of the insurance scheme, but when this matter is deemed by Mr. Speaker to be in order I intend to go more closely into the position of the insurance scheme, and to ask this House to co-operate with me in putting it upon a more sound basis. At the present moment, Mr. Speaker, I know that you would not allow me to advocate the committee I suggest, which I hope will receive the support of this House. This matter assumes importance because it is indicating that the Government are looking upon the Insurance Act and its benefits in a somewhat different light to what used to be the case. As years go on we must get rid of a certain amount of sentiment and come down to practical facts and experience, but now for the first time we find a benefit which all parties are agreed upon as being just is threatened by the Government. I appeal to the Government, in the interests of insured persons and approved societies, to restore this benefit, and not to lay their hands upon it, but regard it as an inviolate trust resulting from a business transaction imposed upon these people compulsorily by the will of this House.
I am glad that my hon. Friend has brought this subject forward on this occasion because it is the only occasion upon which the House of Commons will have any opportunity of considering a scheme which not only will involve the taxpayer in many millions, but also brings into the class of Army and Navy pensioners a new section of the community, namely, dependants as distinguished from the widows and orphans of deceased soldiers and sailors. I put a question down to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to ask him whether the authority of this House would be required in order to enable this scheme to be put into force, and his reply the other day was:— sums to the children. It was adopted, and has since been put into operation. With regard to the other class, the class of dependants other than widows and children, the Report said:—
The scheme bases the pension in principle upon the ascertained dependence prior to enlistment, but in reality they mean the amount which has been ascertained as the proper amount to pay as a separation allowance for the family of the absent soldier. It may be well that the House should understand how this amount of separation allowance has been arrived at. In the first instance, the officers who were charged with this duty took it that the problem was fairly simple. They ascertained the amount the man paid to his family, and they then ascertained the amount it would cost an ordinary man in that particular neighbourhood to live, and they deducted the one from the other. That system was found to work unjustly, and to involve such hardship, especially in cases of large families, that ultimately new directions were given to the assessing authorities that they must give such a sum as would place the family approximately in the same degree of comfort as before the soldier left. That involved a much more complicated question. You had to consider not only what the man contributed, but the number of the family, the method of the living of the family, whether they were poor or well off, and the result is that in cases where men paying precisely the same amount for their maintenance the dependant allowance varies to an astonishing extent. Take the case of a man contributing 20s. per week to the household of a family consisting of a mother and four brothers and sisters. If the four brothers and sisters were working and earning between them £3 per week, then the separation allowance would be approximately something like 7s. or 8s. per week, but if the children were not working, and were entirely dependant upon the soldier, the separation allowance would be something like 15s. or 16s. a week. That is the way in which it works out in two precisely similar cases so far as regards the mother, the only difference being that in the one case there were other breadwinners, and in the other case the children were earning nothing.
It may be quite right during the War in order to put things right for a moment that the one family should receive 15s. and the other family only 7s., but when you come to the consideration of the pension there is no reason why there should be any discrimination between the two mothers, and in order to do justice you have to find some other system of estimating the dependence upon which the pension should be based. Take the very ordinary case of a soldier who has left his widowed mother, and who has been her sole support. Suppose he is bringing in 20s., then if she is doing no work, except keep- ing house for him, the separation allowance under the scheme now adopted would be 12s. or 12s. 6d. a week, but if, on the other hand, she is an industrious woman, herself earning 20s., then it is evident that there is very little dependance, because she is keeping herself and he is keeping himself, and all you can do is to make some sort of allowance for rent, and in. a case like that the allowance will be something like 3s. Looking at it from the point of view of a pension, however, I venture to say that those two mothers are entitled to a permanent pension on the same basis. The mere fact that one mother at that moment was working, and the other was not working, ought not to affect the right of the two women to a pension. The matter requires far more consideration before we start a scheme which will do such injustice between one person and another, and which I am perfectly certain when it gets into operation will be vigorously criticised, and may even become very unpopular. I am only urging that these questions should still be left open, and that we should not bind ourselves to a system which in my opinion is based upon an error.
I should just like to say one word upon the proposals of this scheme itself. When the scheme was first promulgated, it was immediately accepted as being a very simple scheme in which a mother was to have 10s. and other dependants 5s., and that, I believe, is the idea of most people who think that they understand the scheme, but it is not so at all. The mother is to have a sum which is to be the amount of her pre-war dependance—in other words, the amount of the separation allowance—or, if that sum amounts to more than 10s., then 10s., which is the maximum. Therefore the mere mention of this 10s. has been very misleading to the public, and when they find that a great number of people will not have 10s. at all, but will have very much below 10s., I think there will be considerable disappointment. Again, a mother who has no other means of support was to have 10s., but under this scheme, if I read it aright, the moment another child becomes capable of supporting her her right to that 10s. ceases altogether. I think the House will be with me when I say that is a very dangerous position to take up. It wants much more investigation before you can lay down the proposition that every woman to whom you have allotted a pension shall lose it because she has some other children who may or may not support her. I quite admit that the existence of other children brings about a difficulty which must be met, but I believe, as I have shown in a scheme of my own, that it can be met in a different way, and it ought not to be met in this rough-and-ready way. Again, I venture to say that the idea which has got abroad as to the effect of this scheme will be very much affected when it comes into operation.
The second idea which has got about is that other dependants are to have 5s. They will only have what they have had as a separation allowance. The scheme also says that able-bodied dependants are to have a bounty of a year's wage of a soldier or sailor. I fail to see the reason for that. In my opinion, an able-bodied dependant ought not to have any pension whatsoever. The position of dependants such as grown-up brothers and sisters, requires very careful consideration, and I must say, after the experience I have had, that you cannot lay down any rule as to the class of person who ought not to have a pension. You find cases of grandfathers, grandmothers, and foster-mothers, to whom, in certain cases, you would be justified in giving a pension, but to the great majority of whom you would not think of giving it. That is the reason why I cannot help thinking that the whole of this scheme ought to be thoroughly well considered by the new pension body, and we ought not to find it put forward at this moment in a shape in which it is likely to be adversely criticised when it comes into operation. I should not have troubled the House with these remarks if it had not been that this is the only opportunity we shall have, so far as I can understand, of discussing the scheme, and I hope that notwithstanding what has been done, the Government may see their way to making the operation of it only temporary, and may leave it to the new body to consider from every point of view what is the best way of dealing with a perfectly new class of pensioners, under conditions which are absolutely unprecedented, and which, I hope, may never be repeated. Let us get a system which will be more economical, and also more just as between one class and another. I appeal to my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench not to close the door altogether to further suggestions with regard to this scheme. Conditions change day by day, and it becomes more and more difficult, when once one begins to pay a pension, to make any alteration; never- theless, I hope the new body will be granted an opportunity of fully considering the matter, without having its hands tied, either by the scheme itself, or by a Resolution passed by this House last spring.
There are two points which have been raised by the preceding speakers. There is the question of the scheme of allowances to dependants through the War, which has been dealt with by the last speaker; and there is a further point which was made originally by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) with regard to the reaction of this scheme on the finances of the Insurance Act, and what he deems to be my duty as a guardian of the rights of insured persons. I do not propose to deal with the criticisms of the scheme for dependants, because I am not qualified to speak on that point, and I will only deal with the criticisms that have been made on the Insurance Act, for which I am responsible. I am rather glad my hon. Friend should have given me an opportunity of doing this by the manner in which he introduced this matter. He regards this scheme as dealing what he called a staggering blow at the finances of the Insurance Act.
I did not say that.
I took down my hon. Friend's words.
I said a staggering blow at the popularity of the Act.
I will accept my hon. Friend's version, and correct my statement to that extent. He introduced his criticisms with certain vague inuendoes and a certain general declaration as to the unsoundness of the Act, and, in order to reinforce his argument, he urged that at this moment, when the Act is in this rickety condition, it is undesirable to expose to any other risks either its finances or its popularity. I am very glad to have an opportunity of meeting my hon. Friend on that point. I do not know it is in order to go into the question at all, but I do most distinctly challenge his statement and the misleading misrepresentations in the Press which I have seen, declaring that the Act is unsound in itself and that any original vice of unsoundness which it possessed has been rendered far worse by the conditions due to the War. I emphatically disagree with both. I do not believe that the Act is financially unsound, or that the general scheme of the finance of the Act is unsound, and that is the advice given me by my actuarial advisers. So far as the women's position is concerned, as long ago as May, 1914, the flaw in the Act was explained in this House by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it has to some extent been dealt with by the Government, although I quite admit there may still be some points to which the attention of the Government must be directed. But, apart from adjustments which may be required, the general finance of the Act is sound, and, therefore, my hon. Friend's suggestion may be waved on one side.
Neither can I for a moment admit that the finances of the Act have been reduced to a condition of unsoundness as a result of war conditions. It would be clearly out of order for me to go into that matter, but I must say that the advice which is given to me is entirely against that view. My hon. Friend forgets such points as the higher rate of interest, which was not allowed for by the actuaries. He has great knowledge of the working of the Act; he has, I know, access to information in reference to conditions which prevail at the present time, and he has probably come across the very striking fall in claims for sickness benefit, which is a marked feature at this time.
They are still too high.
I have not got the complete figures, but they relate to a large part of the population—a part of the population so large that I think one can fairly draw an estimate from them. At any rate the reduction is very large. I do not know what it is due to. It may be due to the state of employment. A sarcastic Friend of mine thinks it may be due to the fact that a great number of the doctors are out of the country, but that I regard as a libel on a very great profession.
The reduction took place before the War, and before the doctors went away there was a marked improvement.
If there was a great reduction before the War, there has been a still greater reduction in claims for sickness benefit since, and all the information I get is in a direction that indicates that what I say is correct. This applies to sickness benefits among both men and women, and therefore I do not think there need be any nervous or alarmist fears as to the effect of war conditions on the finances of the Act. Let me clear this misapprehension out of the way. I assure my hon. Friend that the suggestion that a large part of this sum which the House of Commons is voting might be devoted to fighting tuberculosis would be very welcome if my personal desires were all that mattered. But I imagine the House of Commons is devoting this sum to absolutely indispensable necessities of the War. When my hon. Friend tells us that, as a result of the War, there is a decline in revenue, and that that decline hampers the task of the insurance committees in dealing with the consumption that exists, and against which we are fighting, I must admit it is true to a certain extent; but when he goes on to say that there are hundreds of persons on the waiting list in London, there again I think there is a good deal of exaggeration.
No.
I am informed there are 210 persons on the waiting list in London, and I do not think there have been fewer at any time, even when the London Insurance Committee was dissipating the very considerable surplus with which it started. Obviously if there were no war you might devote larger sums to this battle against tuberculosis, but it is an absurd exaggeration to suppose that the funds for treating tuberculosis are now exhausted. It is nothing of the kind. All over the country, with the exception of a diminution of revenue due to enlistments, there are funds available at the present time, and I would ask my hon. Friend not to circulate these alarming rumours, which cause a good deal of misapprehension in the minds of insured persons.
I never mentioned a rumour in my life.
The hon. Member has circulated them.
When?
To-day, in his speech. The hon. Member has given utterance to expressions which are calculated to arouse alarm, and which I believe are quite baseless and unfounded. There is this other quarrel he has with me. He says I am not sufficiently the guardian of the interests of insured persons under this scheme. I am not going to defend the scheme. I will leave that to my right hon. Friend. But I should like to say that from that point of view the Insurance Act is not interfered with by what this particular scheme has done. The hon. Member has suggested that the rights of insured persons under the Insurance Act are being infringed by this scheme, and that money is being taken away from them. That is not the case.
I never said so.
The hon. Member, I think, did say so.
No.
The hon. Member has certainly said so in supplementary questions which he has addressed to me in the House. This scheme leaves the benefits under the Insurance Act entirely unaffected, and they will continue to be paid. Every benefit for which an insured person has insured will be paid under this scheme, and nothing will be taken away from him. The State, in granting a further pension, by way of compassionate grant, will take into account the fact that an insured person has this disablement benefit under the Insurance Act. That is all. I will leave it to my right hon. Friend to defend that point. All I will say is that the insured person under the Act has all his rights, and that is all I am concerned with. I think I am a better guardian of the rights of the insured persons than the hon. Member for Pontefract himself, because earlier in the Session there was an Act passed which did to some extent infringe the rights of insured persons under the Insurance Act. Where, under this Act, a pension in respect of total disablement is granted as a result of war conditions, it is provided that the insured person may lose 5s. from his sickness benefit, or disablement benefit, which will not be paid to him, but will be taken away. That might be a serious matter, because if, for instance, he only gets a total disablement pension of 8s. as a result of the War and he loses 5s. of that under this Act, consequently he would be in a worse position than if this Act had not been passed. I note with great interest that the hon. Member supported this Act, even though it infringes the rights of insured persons. He said:—
"The purport of the Bill is to relieve the societies of a considerable difficulty, and I am sure that those societies are obliged to my hon. Friend for the introduction of the Bill."
The hon. Member set me a bad example.
I do not agree with your description of it.
I think my description of it is right. The hon. Member has set me a bad example, because he conspired with my predecessor to connive at this interference with the rights of insured persons. Under the scheme as it is to-day the rights of insured persons remain intact. That is all I am concerned with at present. I think I have shown that I am a better guardian of the rights of insured persons; than my hon. Friend.
My hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) and my right hon. Friend the Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) have dealt with the scheme of allowances to dependants of deceased soldiers and sailors contained in the White Paper issued on 25th October. My right hon. Friend asks us to go on paying the twenty-six weeks' allowance pending a final settlement at some future date. My hon. Friend referred particularly to paragraphs (3) and (8) on the White Paper, under which, as has been stated, we take into account in making the grants the fact that the poor person has a disablement allowance under the National Insurance Act. I should like to say this—I feel a desire to say it every time I hear criticisms on what we are doing for the soldiers and sailors, those whom they leave behind in our charge, and their fathers, mothers, and sisters who were dependent upon them before enlistment—these criticisms on particular points are always very interesting. I do not say that they are not sometimes well-founded, but they are taken separately, and my hon. Friends rather set aside for the moment the very fine and generous provision which the State is making at the present time for the disabled soldiers and' sailors, the wives and children, their widows and orphans, if they do not return to them, and they themselves if they come back to us broken by hard soldiering and sailoring. I am very much inclined to rehearse that, so that the whole thing should be seen in true perspective. The question raised this afternoon is how we should treat the dependants other than widows and orphans. It is a very important one, and to it we have given and will give great care, and will bear fully in mind the comments made by my hon. Friends. But it only one point; the others should not be lost sight of.
I should like to state what we are doing now. Take the question of separation allowances for soldiers' wives. Previously to this War those allowances were only paid to wives married on the strength, who were an extremely small number. Sailors' wives had no separation allowance at all. Prior to October allowances to dependants—fathers, mothers, sisters,—were unknown. Since the War the separation allowance for soldiers' wives has been paid irrespective of any question of their being on the strength. Questions in this House have been answered showing that the present provision for the soldier's wife is out of all proportion to anything ever contemplated Joy the State in the past. As to sailors, for the first time there is a separation allowance for their wives, contingent upon a minimum allotment. Apart from that, the standard of separation allowances for soldiers' and sailors' wives has been improved considerably, and throughout the whole of these schemes it has been our duty, and our pleasure, too, to pay quite particular regard to the case of children on a scale hitherto uncontemplated. With regard to widows and their pensions, before the War I believe the pension was 5s., but she did not get this unless she had been married, when her husband was alive, on the strength. That meant a small pension to an extremely small circle of persons, who were to get 5s. a week if the husband was married on the strength. Now, for the lowest rank, the widow gets 10s. a week, 12s. 6d. when she reaches thirty-five years of age, 15s. when she reaches forty-five, with small additions for higher ranks. In the case of the children, the pre-war rate was 1s. 6d. for each child. Now it is 5s. for the first child, 3s. 6d. for the second child, and 2s. for each subsequent child. Before the War motherless children received 3s. a week; the present scale is 5s. each child under this scheme. Quite a new feature in our provision is this, that in order that these poor people may have an opportunity to turn round and get used to new conditions, we continue the separation allowances to wives and children and other dependants for twenty-six weeks before we come to the question of pension at all.
Let me take the case of the soldiers and sailors themselves. Before the War the man who came home totally disabled received from 10s. 6d. to 17s. 6d. a week; now if he comes home totally disabled, as from the 1st March last he gets 25s. a week with an additional allowance—a new allowance—of 2s. 6d. for each child. So far as the disabled soldier is concerned there was nothing for the children before.
The single man will have 25s. as well as the married man. I want you to make that clear.
Yes. Before the War the partially disabled man received from 3s. 6d. to 10s. 6d. per week; now he gets 25s. a week. As from the 1st March last he will get at least 10s. 6d. for the loss of a limb or an eye, and such amount as with the wages which the man may be deemed to be capable of earning will amount to 25s. a week, plus a discretionary allowance up to 2s. 6d. a week for each child. That is the story. It is very well worth telling. I am sure the House will forgive me for rehearsing that first, so that when we come to the points now raised we can get a proper perspective. It does not appear that we are at all niggardly or inconsiderate. I admit the importance of the points raised and that we should look closely into the criticisms of the hon. Members. Before I come to the scheme of allowances to dependants of deceased soldiers and sailors other than wives and orphans, let me say one word with regard to the reference the hon. Member for Pontefract made to the need for ample provision for the treatment of consumptives. I agree most cordially with him there. The rigours of the War will no doubt bring back many men who will be broken in health. What we have done at the Admiralty is this: I have had several discussions with the Director-General of the Medical Service about it. When it looked as if men would return disabled because of tuberculosis we have invariably set up inquiries in the localities from which they come to see if they can get sanatorium treatment there under the Insurance Act. We have in every case done our level best to do that. My hon. Friend says that we want more money and shall want more sanatoria provided as a result of this War, and he says we should take some of this Vote of Credit and apply it to that purpose. He will readily understand that that is not a question for me. It is a question for the Cabinet, and one I cannot answer at all. As to the scheme for the other dependants of deceased sailors and soldiers, my right hon. Friend the Member for North St. Pancras quite properly showed that it is based upon the Report of the Select Committee, and he quoted paragraph 13, which deals with the general method of awarding pensions and gratuities to others than the widows and orphans of sailors and soldiers. Let me read the two paragraphs which deal with separation allowances for dependants other than wives and children. Paragraph (7) says:—
There you have the geneses of the whole thing. It is based upon pre-war dependence. Then there is a reference to the procedure, the lodging of appeals, and so on. That is the scheme of separation allowances for other dependent relatives, not wives or children. Then you come to how we are to deal with these people in respect to their dependants by way of pension or of gratuity. Then my right hon. Friend read paragraph 13, which gives us the procedure which we must adopt, and it is broadly, on paragraph 13, that this White Paper has been modelled. My right hon. Friend says, "I think you are a little harsh in it. You begin by talking about an allowance of 10s. a week in the lowest rank, but you hedge it around with such definitions, you speak of 'a parent or parents only dependant,' and so on, that there will be very few who will get it." The great bulk will come into the 5s. a week class in the second paragraph, and in other respects he passed rather serious criticisms upon it. But I would remind him—and he read it himself—that paragraph 13, which gives us our marching orders, so to speak, in respect of pensions for other dependent relatives than widows and orphans, says:
I should like to ask my right hon. Friend a very important question, which is giving great concern to these people in the different localities.
Is it relevant to this?
Yes, it is quite relevant.
It is very unusual to interrupt in this manner.
I am sorry, but I should like to ask whether, before fixing the rate between the 10s. and the 5s. minimum, it is the intention of the two Departments to receive the advice and the recommendations of the new Statutory Committee as was intended?
That I will deal with before I sit down. The point I am making now is that, however narrow and ungenerous this provision for these fathers and mothers and so on may be in the opinion of my right hon. Friend, there it is.
"The general aim of such a scheme should be to secure to the dependants, so far as may be possible, approximately the benefit which they received—"
My hon. Friend sitting opposite, who was a member of the Select Committee, knows that this was fully discussed and this question of pre-war dependence again and again canvassed—
"which they received from the deceased sailor or soldier during his life."
It may be—I do not deny it—that in some respects we may have taken a severe view. I do not think so, although I have listened to the criticisms to-day. Nevertheless, we do not wish to disregard those criticisms at all. We should wish to look into this White Paper again. It is based upon the paragraph of the Select Committee accepted by the House of Commons, and we cannot go behind it. My hon. Friend would not wish us to. We are bound to be guided by that policy of pre-war dependence which has to regulate both separation allowances and pensions in these cases. All I can say to my right hon. Friend (Mr. Dickinson) is that where we can we are going on with the twenty-six weeks' separation allowance in each case. Where we think we have sufficient evidence to enable us to make an award on the lines of this scheme we shall propose to make it. We shall be glad to get information from any source, but wherever we think we have evidence which would entitle us to make this award for the twenty-six weeks and the extension of it—because it is extended in a number of cases—in the absence of the Statutory body, we shall proceed to do it upon the basis of this scheme. But as regards one or two of the details of it I am quite prepared, and I am sure the Financial Secretary to the War Office is equally prepared, to look into it again in the light of the discussion this afternoon and particularly with regard to one point. My hon. Friend (Mr. Booth) dissented very sharply from paragraph (3) and paragraph (8), in which we take into account in making an award whether the dependant is already in receipt of a disablement allowance under the Insurance Act. We do not take the sickness benefit into account because that is not a permanent benefit, but we thought that we were called upon to consider what is the income which this person has received from any source of any kind before we make this award, and in considering the income we proposed to take into account the disablement benefit which they are receiving. My hon. Friend (Mr. Booth) says, "This person, having paid under the Insurance Act, has got this benefit and is entitled to it, and you have no right to take it away." We do not take it away. We do not touch it at all. We take it into account in making an award under this scheme.
That is the same thing.
I have been rather impressed, and so has my hon. Friend, with the hon. Member's contention upon that point. I do not think he would wish me to give an absolute assurance on the point. We must discuss it, but at any rate we will give due weight to the proposal that we should strike out all reference to disablement benefit, and award this allowance without reference to whether he is receiving it or not. I will communicate with my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend on any modified form which may hereafter be necessary of this Paper or the scheme under it. This is not the scheme. Although the taking into account of disablement benefit is an essential part of it as it stands, yet this is no more than a presentation to Parliament of the main lines of that scheme. Therefore, I think, subject to the Select Committee's general guidance to us, we can look it through again. I do not give any undertaking to make any modification now, but I undertake to give every consideration, and so does my hon. Friend, with reference to the cases which have been made to us this afternoon.
Compulsory Service
I rise with a deep sense of responsibility and very reluctantly. I should not have risen if I had not felt that it was my duty to raise the question I am about to raise on this, the earliest opportunity. I find some solace in rising because I rise to support and to ask for the carrying out of the policy with regard to recruiting which was announced by the Prime Minister in this House on 2nd November last. It is obviously undesirable now to read any considerable portion of the Prime Minister's speech, but I will attempt, in a manner which I hope will challenge no contradiction of any kind, to summarise the position which he set forth and the attitude which he defined. He announced, in the first place, that there was a difference of opinion in the Cabinet upon the matter. He announced, in the second place, that if ever compulsion was necessary in this country it could only be applied by general assent. He said that if the need existed, the reason why compulsion was not a policy that he should advocate at present was the absence of anything in the nature of general assent. He said, further, that it was only in the last resort—it was only if the voluntary system was demonstrably a failure, having regard to all the other duties that fell upon this country during the War, that he should ever come to this House and invite that general assent which was now withheld. Having said that he went further, and said he declined to believe in the possibility of compulsion ever being necessary in this country. He was so convinced of the triumphant vindication of the voluntary system that he declined even to consider the possibility of compulsion being necessary. He said, further, that in these views that I have paraphrased he was speaking for himself alone. I think that, too, was very important. Having said these things, he went on—it sounded like a postscript; it was governed by all the considerations that he had set forth—to speak of the concern which he was told by Lord Derby was being felt with regard to the position of married men, and he said:—
"Let them at once disabuse themselves of that notion."
That is the notion that the married men will be required to serve whilst unmarried men are holding back.
"So far as I am concerned, I should certainly say the obligation of the married man to enlist ought not to be enforced or held to be binding upon him unless and until—I hope by voluntary effort, it it be needed in the last resort, as I have explained, by other means—the unmarried men are dealt with."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd November, 1915, col. 524.]
That is the substance of the position as it was defined in the Prime Minister's speech. It was coloured by a note of optimism as to the result of the appeal now being made under what is called the Derby scheme, which, I think, was shared by the whole House without any distinction or qualification, and the whole House accepted the position as defined by the Prime Minister. But the whole position was suddenly changed by the issue on the evening of Thursday last of the communication which Lord Derby made through the Press Bureau. That communication was at variance with the statement made by the Prime Minister on 2nd November.
An HON MEMBER: "No!"
It is no good calling "No," because if language means anything it was at variance with the statement, and I assume that language has some meaning. I will not trouble the House with the whole of Lord Derby's statement, but I will read the most vital passages:
"Lord Derby is further authorised to state definitely that if young men medically fit and not indispensable to any business of national importance, or to any business conducted for the general good of the community, do not come forward voluntarily before 30th November, the Government will, after that date, take the necessary steps to redeem the pledge made on 2nd November."
Lord Derby goes on to add:
"The Prime Minister on that occasion pledged not only himself but his Government"—
Will the hon. Member read that portion of the statement where it says that the Prime Minister was surprised at Lord Derby's request that this statement in the House of Commons should be made plainer.
Certainly, I have the full statement here. I omitted that.
That is the vital point.
I am very anxious not to misrepresent the statement of Lord Derby. I will, therefore, read it in full.
"Lord Derby is authorised by the Prime Minister to express his surprise that his statement in the House of Commons on 2nd November should be considered in any way ambiguous.
The Prime Minister on that occasion pledged not only himself but his Government when he stated that if young men do not, under the stress of national duty, come forward voluntarily, other and compulsory means would be taken before the married men were called upon to fulfil their engagement to serve.
Lord Derby is further authorised to state definitely that if young men medically fit and not indispensable to any business of national importance, or to any business conducted for the general good of the community, do not come forward voluntarily before 30th November, the Government will, after that date, take the necessary steps to redeem the pledge made on 2nd November.
It must be clearly understood that no marriage contracted after the registration day (15th August) will entitle any man to be relegated to the married groups.
Whether a man is indispensable or not to his business will be decided, not by the man or his employer, but by competent authorities and tribunals, which are being set up to consider such cases.
The instructions which will be issued to the local tribunals will make adequate provision for dealing with special or exceptional cases."
All I have to say on this notice is that it would be an entirely proper notice to issue after this House had decided in favour of and passed a Bill for Conscription. I think the statement involves an insult to this House. I think it involves a gross breach of the privileges of this House. I submit that this House, and this House alone, is entitled to announce that such steps as these will be taken, steps which involve the business of legislation, with the deliberate assent of Parliament and the country. Therefore it is idle for my hon. Friend (Mr. Bigland) to tell me that there is no discrepancy between this statement and the statement that was made by the Prime Minister. I see my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Long) has just entered the House, and I am glad to see him in his place because I wish, with entire courtesy, and I have always been very courteously treated by the right hon. Gentleman, to put to him a question. At Question Time to-day I asked, in a supplementary question to the Prime Minister, when this matter was being discussed in the form of question and answer, whether he was aware that the President of the Local Government Board had himself announced compulsion on Saturday last at Bristol. I was sufficiently near to my right hon. Friend at the time to hear him deny to the Prime Minister that he had made that statement. Thereupon the Prime Minister said, in reply to me, that he was not aware that the right hon. Gentleman had made any such statement. It is very necessary for me to show to the House how the statement issued by Lord Derby has been improved upon by my right hon. Friend, speaking with all the authority of a Cabinet Minister, and with all the responsibility attaching to a Cabinet Minister. The right hon. Gentleman went to a great banquet at Bristol. Personally, I lament the holding of these banquets. They remind me too much of the banquet where—
"Funeral-baked meats coldly furnish the marriage table."
If the Shakesperean quotation is not recognised by the House, let me hasten to say that I mean nothing offensive in the quotation. If it is considered to be at all offensive I will withdraw it, for that is the last thing I intended. I regret a banquet still more which leads to the delivery of a speech like this. I will quote from the "Times" report of a speech delivered by the President of the Local Government Board at Bristol last Saturday. These are his words:—
"Single men may be perfectly certain that if they fail to-day, at this hour of their country's need, they will be called upon compulsorily to take their places in the ranks."
In view of that statement, I would ask the House whether or not I was justified today at Question Time in asking the Prime Minister whether he was aware that his colleague had announced compulsion in his speech at Bristol on Saturday evening? No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will reply afterwards.
I think, as the hon. Gentleman has put the matter to me in the form of a question, it would be only fair I should answer now. To what I said at Bristol—which, so far as I know, has been correctly quoted by my hon. Friend—I absolutely adhere. The hon. Gentleman set out to show that the language I used at Bristol differs from the language used by the Prime Minister in this House and from the statement issued by Lord Derby with the approval of the Prime Minister. I await the hon. Gentleman's proof of that.
The right bon. Gentleman must forgive me; that is not my point at all. I asked the Prime Minister at Question Time whether he was aware that the right hon. Gentleman had announced compulsion on Saturday.
When the hon. Gentleman asks whether we have announced compulsion, he appears to ignore the fact that all we can do is to follow the language used by the Prime Minister, in which he made it perfectly clear that if the Government found that the unmarried men, the men who could be spared, were leaving the defence of their liberties to others, that other steps would be taken to make them perform their duty. That that can be done without debate in this House or without legislation, neither I nor any other Member of the Government have stated.
There was nothing about sufficient numbers in this statement, and I must repeat, with all the earnestness at my command, that the right hon. Gentleman has failed to realise the point I am making, and the explanation that I am asking for, I hope with courtesy. The Prime Minister himself denied that any compulsion had been decided upon. He said that to the House to-day, and when I asked him whether he knew that his colleague had announced compulsion at Bristol he said he did not think his colleague had said anything of the kind. The right hon. Gentleman himself denied having said so. That is the charge that I am making.
I am very sorry to interrupt the hon. Member again, but he seeks to draw some distinction between my language and the language used by the Prime Minister in debate and the language used by Lord Derby, with the approval of the Prime Minister. The hon. Gentleman takes one passage out of my speech and ignores for his own purpose—I do not make any charge against him—the fact that I commenced my remarks by saying that we had fought this War so far under the voluntary system, and that I hoped and believed we should finish under the voluntary system. I made that perfectly clear, and I submit to the House, with great confidence, after a good many year's experience of debate, that no one is entitled to found a charge upon a single word or sentence taken from a speech without quoting the whole. The part with which I began my speech made it perfectly clear, not only that I am a believer in the voluntary system, but that I hoped it would still be effective. All I did was to indicate, as briefly as I could to my audience, what had already been made perfectly clear in this House and in the Press.
I regret very much to have to pursue this matter. The right hon. Gentleman is scarcely doing me justice when he suggests that I am not entitled to refer to his speech unless I read the whole of his speech to the House.
An HON. MEMBER: He never said so.
Yes, and I think, if I may say so with all respect, that it was not a remark which the right hon. Gentleman should have made in reply to the charge that I am making. The point I wish to put is very simple. The Prime Minister, so far from announcing compulsion has declared in this House that he declines to entertain the possibility of considering that it may be necessary, and he has stated the conditions under which alone it can ever be contemplated by this House and by the country; a statement which met with the general approval of the House. Lord Derby next issues a statement in vital contradiction of the Prime Minister's speech, and the right hon. Gentleman, following Lord Derby, goes to the Bristol banquet and announces, on behalf of the Government, or at least as a Cabinet Minister sharing, I suppose, responsibility for the corporate decisions of the Cabinet, that
"Single men may be perfectly certain that if they fail to-day, in the hour of their country's need, they will be called upon compulsorily to take their places in the ranks."
The right hon. Gentleman went a little further than that. Though it is not recorded in the "Times," I find in other newspapers that he is reported to have said:—
"These young men would be sent to the trenches, and if they survived the trenches they would have something to think about for the rest of their lives."
I turn from that matter, which I have raised without any personal feeling at all.
Hear, hear.
I am very glad that my right hon. Friend acknowledges that. I turn from that matter to remind the House that there is another feature connected with Lord Derby's statement of the most serious importance. The day before that statement appeared the military expert of the "Times," Colonel Repington, made an appeal in the "Times" for the immediate formation of thirty new divisions, involving an addition to our Army of 600,000 men, in addition to the enormous Armies in the field and in this country, and in addition to the drafts necessary to maintain those great Armies in the field. Colonel Repington made this preposterous demand, and it was followed by Lord Derby's communication through the Press Bureau and by the right hon. Gentleman's speech at Bristol. It is, therefore, very necessary to consider this matter in all its bearings. We are entitled to say, in face of the language used by Lord Derby, in face of the speech made by the President of the Local Government Board, in face of the campaign in the Press, and in face of this article by Colonel Repington, that the voluntary system is not having fair play. This great voluntary campaign, which was to take place with the blessing of the Government, and for the support of which the Prime Minister made his appeal, so readily assented to by everyone in this House, is not having a fair trial, and we are living under a system which is practical compulsion already.
Compulsion of the worst sort.
Illegal Conscription; Conscription which the hon. Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) describes as the worst kind of compulsion. I, therefore, rise to-day to protest against this attack upon the voluntary system, against this improper and illegal form of compulsion, wholly unnecessary as I hope, and which threatens and menaces both the unity and the highest interests of this nation. It is also necessary to state that the demands that are being made, if assented to, would involve disaster, not only to this country, but to the Allied cause. We have to maintain the Fleet at its level of efficiency. To my mind the work of the Fleet remains the controlling factor in the War. We are financing our Allies. We are making munitions, and we are raising, in addition to those heavy duties, for the first time in the history of our land, an Army on the Continental scale. Indefinitely to increase that Army, arbitrarily to impose Conscription without reference to those conditions so solemnly laid down by the Prime Minister, would involve this country in utter inability to finance her Allies and to continue to put forth her strength in the making of munitions. We are bound to consider what are the possibilities of this country. To my mind those who appeal for Conscription would destroy the whole fabric of our industry, and are taking the surest means to bring about financial collapse and disaster to ourselves and to our Allies.
But while we are under this crude unauthorised threat of Conscription of this kind, there are other things to be considered. I have noticed so many speeches, and so many newspaper articles which deal with Conscription, as though it were one of the most simple things in the world instead of one of the most difficult and complicated. I would ask my right hon. Friend, who will reply, what are some of the reasons at present why men are unable to enlist? He will find that financial reasons prevent great numbers of men, married and unmarried, from enlisting—because the fixed charges that fall upon them are far greater than any separation allowance or any wage which would be paid to them in the Army, and because that means that if they enlist, financial distress and disaster would fall upon all that they care for. My right hon. Friend must be prepared before he goes further with the campaign for Conscription, and the advocates of Conscription must be prepared for a demand, not for the conscription of men, but for the conscription of the wealth of this country. I had it put to me more than once that if all those in this country above military age were to sacrifice their income—I do not mean lend it to the Government at 4½ per cent. interest, but were to sacrifice their income above a moderate amount, say, above a £1,000 or £2,000, fix it where you will, there would be an ample margin to meet the financial needs of the relatives and dependants of those who are now prevented from enlisting by financial reasons. I think that this House will find, in face of this crude unauthorised attempt, to apply a system of Conscription that has not been sanctioned by Parliament, and I believe never will be sanctioned by Parliament, a growing demand that the conscription of wealth should first take place.
But I lament altogether that this discussion should be forced on the nation at the present time. I have no responsibility whatever for having engaged in this discussion. This discussion has been prematurely forced upon the nation without adequate cause of any kind. The nation was united. It was working the voluntary system with a good will, and a zest which left nothing to be desired. The men are coming forward in wholly satisfactory numbers. The whole War has been a splendid vindication of the voluntary system, and into this unity and fixity of purpose, this menace of Conscription is introduced. I deplore it. I trust that as a result of this Debate the Government will make clear that it adheres to every word which the Prime Minister said in his speech on 2nd November, that the conditions then set forth as being conditions which must be fulfilled before Conscription can be imposed in this House will remain, and will again be assented to on behalf of the Government. And I hope, as a result of this Debate, that this attempt to bully men, to use improper influences to frighten them, to cause all sorts of injustice, to break the unity of the nation, to cause unrest in every direction, will stop, and that we shall once more press forward a united country, with every man doing the utmost of which he is capable for the public good.
The hon. Member who has just spoken appears to have made a remarkable discovery. He has suddenly realised that we are working under a compulsory system. I have sometimes wondered whether some of those who are continually talking about voluntarism in this country have not yet recognised that for the last twelve months we have been working in this country under a system of compulsion—not a system of legal compulsion, but a system of compulsion by persuasion, compulsion by badgering, compulsion by offering people white feathers, compulsion by posters, compulsion of all kinds, except the simple straightforward statement that your country wants you, and that it is your legal duty to go.
If they do not want to go? If they do not want the War?
That, of course, raises very different considerations which I will not discuss.
Why not?
I do not believe that there is any percentage of people worthy of being called men in this country who are not prepared to go if they really have to go, if matters are made plain to them. The hon. Gentleman has apparently discovered some extraordinary discrepancy, which I personally have yet failed to understand, between the speech of the Prime Minister in this House on 2nd November, a speech in which the Prime Minister conceded almost every point made by some of us in reference to the so-called voluntary system, and the statement issued by Lord Derby. The Prime Minister said:—
"I am determined—I stick at nothing—I am determined that we shall win this War. Sooner than not win the War, if I found—I do not believe I shall—such a situation as that, I should come down without the faintest hesitation or doubt to all my Friends, those who like myself are what I call strong supporters of the voluntary system, and say, 'We have done what we could; we have not obtained the results we hoped for; we must do what is still necessary by other means."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd November, 1915, cols. 523 and 524.]
That is to say, if the scheme did not succeed, he would come down to this House and ask for a compulsory system. So far we are all agreed.
He does not say that. He says "other means."
He continues:—
"Let me say one word more in this connection. I am told by Lord Derby and others that there is some doubt among married men who are now being asked to enlist, whether, having enlisted, or promised to enlist, they may not be called upon to serve while younger and unmarried men are holding back, and not doing their duty. Let them at once disabuse themselves of that notion. So far as I am concerned I should certainly say the obligation of the married man to enlist ought not to be enforced or held to be binding upon him unless and until—I hope by voluntary effort, if it be needed in the last resort, as I have explained, by other means—the unmarried men are dealt with."
What do those words mean? If they meant anything, surely they meant this, that if, after Lord Derby's scheme had been tried, it was found that young unmarried men were not coming forward, as they ought to have done, then before a single married man was taken the right hon. Gentleman would come to this House and introduce some scheme of compulsion to make unmarried men go.
My right hon. Friend has not quoted some vital words which precede that—
"I have not the least fear of there being any necessity to resort to anything beyond this great organised effort which is being carried on with the good will of all parties in the State, and with the hearty co-operation of the leaders of organised labour."
I do not think that that is relevant to the point that I am discussing. The point is what the Prime Minister said and what Lord Derby said. The Prime Minister said, and we have all said the same thing, that he hoped the voluntary system will succeed. We have all promised to do our best to make Lord Derby's scheme succeed.
My point was that those words which I have read were meant to be applicable to this great effort which is now being made.
Certainly. What the Prime Minister was discussing was what would happen if it did not succeed. He said that if the young unmarried men did not come forward he personally would come down to the House and propose that steps should be taken to make them come forward. I think that that is quite clear. Lord Derby's statement was in reference to the fact that a large number of married men who had been asked to enlist had said—I have had the question put to myself by a number of people—"I am thirty-five. I am asked to go to Group 16, or whatever the number is. What guarantee have I that if I, a middle-aged man with children and obligations, enlist, I shall not be called upon, while thousands of unmarried men are walking about the country?" I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he admires the system by which hundreds of thousands of married men have gone out to the front, by which you have created thousands of widows and orphans, while you have the experience day after day of hundreds of thousands of young men with no obligations remaining at home?" I have never admired that system, and I do not admire it to-day. It seems to me that the hon. Member wants to perpetuate that system. I must say that even the Press, such as the "Daily Chronicle," which has been supporting his contentions, admits that the young unmarried men ought to go before the married men. Doubts have been expressed as to the meaning of what the Prime Minister said. I think that statement is very clear, and that some hon. Members in this House do not appear to want to understand it. Lord Derby states that young men medically fit, and not indispensable to any business of national importance, or any business conducted for the benefit of the community, are to be called. The hon. Member opposite seems to imply that the system is adumbrated without any reference to munition making, or other matters for which men will be required. As a matter of fact, it is only since Lord Derby has taken the matter in hand that we have got any kind of system out of the chaos at all. The Government of the day will take the necessary steps, Lord Derby goes on to say, to do what? To redeem the pledge made on 2nd November? Where is the difference? Where is the discrepancy? I cannot see where it is, and the hon. Gentleman did not explain to us where it is either. The result has been that married men, feeling secure, have come into your group system.
The "Daily Chronicle" yesterday, although we have been assured for months that recruiting was going satisfactorily, had the headline, "London Awake at Last;" and young men, under the stimulus apparently of Lord Derby's circular, "rushed to enlist." That seems rather in contradiction to the statement we have heard as to the effect of Lord Derby's circular in influencing young men to enlist. The hon. Member and others associated with him repeat the statement very frequently, that, apparently, in this country we have no more men than we can afford to send as soldiers. I might point out to the hon. Gentleman that if we have no more men Lord Derby's scheme should never have been started. It makes no difference to your munitions, to your finance, and to other matters whether men enlist voluntarily or compulsorily. The economic sin is just the same, and is not special to one system or to another. The hon. Member implied that we ought not to enlist any more men at all, and, on the other hand, we have all been engaged in telling the men to enlist. Let me ask the hon. Member whether he thinks he is doing voluntaryism any service? After all, the hon. Gentleman must see that if, under the Prime Minister's system, Lord Derby's scheme is not a success, we must have some form of compulsion, and, if the scheme is going to be made a success by any statement issued, is it not in the interest of him and his friends that the scheme should succeed, and then the whole question would, as I sincerely hope, not arise at all. If he keeps on telling people that they ought to go because of finance, munitions, or other reasons, the system will be a failure and you will not get men.
Let us examine the question of finance. There has been more nonsense talked about winning the War with money than on any other subject. Will anyone point out a war which has been won by money? Poor nations descend on nations with money to take away their money, and you cannot defeat a vigorous and warlike nation with money. I have never heard of a war in which people who had money have managed to win, unless they have hired other troops to fight for them; and I have never heard of a war coining to an end because of the people not having money. It is suggested that the Napoleonic War was won in some mysterious way because of our money. The Napoleonic War was won because the Spanish nation, the Prussian, the Russian, and other nations, irrespective of money, finance, and exchange, made up their minds that they would be no longer sub- jugated, and Napoleon was beaten. That is what will occur with any nation that has enterprise and courage to go on fighting. Finance is not our real weapon. There is an idea that unless we produce wealth we cannot finance our Allies. We no not produce wealth, we produce commodities. Surely the whole question is whether the commodities produced are of any use at all. You have at the present time employed in this country a considerable number of people who are making cheap pianos to sell to the working classes. Is that increasing the wealth of the country and enabling us to finance our Allies? If these people were engaged in making munitions of war would the country be any worse off? You have a large number of people who once were making motor-cars, but now are making shells, and the country is no worse off.
There is a great deal of confusion of thought that arises on the whole question of finance, and of the transference of wealth from the individual to the State. The transference of wealth does not necessarily impoverish you at all. If you transfer men from the production of luxuries to the making of munitions the country is not worse off, but rather better off, while you prevent people from buying luxuries. The argument that we cannot afford this or that in view of the financial situation is extraordinarily exaggerated, and a nation whose capital is twenty-four thousand millions cannot suddenly go bankrupt because it is spending five millions a day. The sum is huge, but the capital also is huge. We must liquidate our assets in order that we may use them to bring the War to a successful conclusion, and not drag the War on indefinitely by feeble and intermittent efforts. What do the Serbians want? They do not want money; they want men to defend them; they want the English Army to defend them. If we had put three hundred thousand men on the Bulgarian frontier four months ago, Bulgaria would not have taken action against us, Greece would probably have been our Ally, and Roumania might have fought with us. We might have saved many lives and a vast amount of money, and we would have been infinitely better off. You cannot talk about war with limited liability—that so many men should be raised and no more. It is a very dangerous illusion, for in war it is necessary to proceed quickly, strongly, firmly, and decidedly, not always looking at your bank book every week to see how you are going on. That is the way to ruin.
The hon. Member said that a large number of men, married and some unmarried, cannot enlist because of their fixed obligations. I quite agree. I put a question to the Prime Minister some little time ago which created a certain amount of comment, and has been widely misunderstood. I asked the Prime Minister if he would have a moratorium as to fixed obligations. Something in that direction will have to be done. You have provided, by your separation allowance, for the needs of a large number of people with relatively small incomes. Separation allowances, of course, are entirely inadequate where you have to deal with classes who have leases of three or four years of houses rented at £40, and who have mortgages and heavy life premiums. What is done in other countries? In other countries the fighting man is looked upon as the one important man, and the civilian is an entirely unimportant person. [An HON. MEMBER: "Prussianism!"] I am talking about France. I have been at some trouble to ascertain the French law, which safeguards what they call, "the man under the flag." The man under the flag in France cannot have any legal proceedings brought against him, and I say that is not too much to do for the man who is daily and hourly risking his life. I have also been at some trouble to ascertain the law in Switzerland, where no action lies against a man called to the Colours, even in peace time. Neither his wife nor child, either in France or Switzerland, can be turned out of the house for not paying rent. I do not intend to ask you to go as far as that.
Why not?
I am told that it is "Prussianism." But what I am going to ask for it this, and I think it is a very reasonable request: We have already passed through this House a Bill which is now an Act, and which is not well enough known among the people, the Courts Emergency Act, which enables a debtor, when judgment is given against him, to apply to the Court for relief on the ground that he cannot pay owing to the War. That Act covers a certain amount of ground, but it has some defects, the main one being that the person requiring relief can take no steps until judgment has been got against him. What I should propose is that any man who enlists should be entitled to go to the Court and ask for relief against any contract he may have, either by way of its being cancelled or postponed, or upon such terms as the Court thinks fit, if he can show that because of his enlisting with the Colours it is impossible for him to carry on his contract. I have been informed by a legal authority that probably under the common law of this country, if we had the compulsory system, the contracts of a man called to the Colours ipso facto would come to an end, owing to the fact that the State tells him to do a thing which makes it impossible for him to perform the contract, and, therefore, by the common law of the country, the contract ipso facto comes to an end. I do not know whether that is so, but I think it would be worth while if the Law Officers of the Crown would look into the matter. My proposal is very simple, but I do not wish people to escape-obligations which can be met. I have dozens of letters on this question. In one case a dentist, who had the lease for five years of a house rented at £75, wished to get rid of it as he wanted to join the Colours. He felt that if he could not get rid of his lease he might be sold up. That kind of thing cannot be allowed. You cannot fight for your country and for the landlord too. I think it is only right that in these cases of life insurances and other forms of contract some arrangement should be made which will relieve men, with their families, on joining the Colours, by application to the proper Court. I go further, and I think some arrangement ought to be made to enable the representatives of widows, in case of death, to obtain some kind of relief.
6.0 P.M.
We have to take bold and unexpected steps in this War, for we are engaged in the greatest enterprise we have ever undertaken; but, at the very moment when the War is more favourable to us than it has been from the commencement, so many people begin to despair. Hon. Members come and say, "Will not the Government tell us on what terms they are prepared to make peace?" [An HON. MEMBER: "Only one Member!"] Are we to have suing for peace when victory is in our grasp, and when, if we only exhibit determination and common sense and stick to it, we are on the upward movement. Look at the position of our Allies. Look at the Russian front, the French front, the Italian front, and the position is better than it has been at any stage of the War. No person who has any information can doubt the fact that Germany is running short of vital materials, of munitions, of food, of men. It may be a long process, though not as long, perhaps, as we think, and that we should abate one jot of our efforts when a final push is needed, and that we should begin to despair and to grow timid, is inconceivable. The Hon. Member for the Elland Division (Mr. Trevelyan) spoke about what business men would do. If I claim to be anything I claim to be a business man. What is the idea of a business man. Is it, say, that a director of a company should be prepared to call a meeting of his shareholders at a critical moment of competition with a great competitor in order to tell them how badly everything is going, and to explain how difficult their financial situation is, and how deficient their organisation is, and what mistakes they have made? No prudent man ever explains to anybody his mistakes. Business men are not in the habit of bringing their mistakes to the notice of people. Has anybody ever heard of business affairs being conducted in the way suggested? If they were they would be very unsuccessful. War is a great business, to be successfully conducted by a Government which has the confidence of the nation, and which acts on its own responsibility and with decision and courage. Whatever criticisms they may have to endure the great masses of the people of this country will support them as long as they firmly, determinedly, and certainly continue this War to a victorious end, and prosecute it to a successful finish.
The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has devoted the greater portion of his speech to considerations which would be strictly relevant to a straightforward discussion on Conscription, but which, if I may respectfully suggest so to him, were not particularly pertinent to the observations made by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Lanark (Mr. Whitehouse). The right hon. Gentleman began his speech by addressing a direct question to my hon. Friend as to whether he admired the voluntary system as it has hitherto been worked in this country. He confessed that he did not, but he expressed his strong pious hope that a system which he does not admire would nevertheless succeed. But his chief complaint, as I gathered, against the existing voluntary system was that under the recruiting methods hitherto adopted a large number of married men have been drafted into the Colours with, he says, the deplorable result of many widows left in that condition. But I would ask him this direct question: Is that really a relevant argument. Can he, as a Conscriptionist or as an advocate of Conscription, point to a single Army founded on Conscriptionist's principles which is composed wholly and entirely of bachelors?
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman expects an answer to that question, but of course, I cannot do anything of the kind. Obviously, if you take an Army in which the younger class of men are called up first you will have a considerably smaller number of married men, than if you take them irrespective of age.
That does not dispose of the voluntary position and when pressed to its logical conclusion is only an indictment of the methods on which the voluntary principle has hitherto been worked in this country. It was perfectly possible to work it on precisely the same grouping and selection principle as in other armies, and we voluntaryists are suffering because of the looseness of the methods employed in the administration of the possibilities of the voluntary principle in this country. The real point of this Debate turns upon the interpretation of certain assurances given by the Prime Minister on 2nd November. I am bound to say that, probably unconsciously, that speech must have been inspired by great political genius, for the simple reason that that speech apparently provides within its four corners materials as valuable to the right hon. Gentleman opposite as to those who are supporters of the voluntary principle on this side. May I say one or two things concerning that speech to which the right hon. Gentleman did not address himself? That speech, and I put it plainly, neither by its implication, nor by its explicit declaration, provides one shadow of foundation for the statement which has recently been published under Lord Derby's auspices. Will the right hon. Gentleman say that the language used, which I quoted in my question this afternoon, in which you are exhorting men to enlist before the 30th of November, by telling them that if they do not the Prime Minister has pledged himself and his Government that compulsory means will be taken, I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is the least warrant, either by implication or by explicit statement in the Prime Minister's speech of 2nd November, authorising a declaration of that kind? What he did say in that speech was not that he was committing himself to a declaration of Governmental policy. The Prime Minister most explicitly stated that he was speaking for himself and for himself alone, and there is no foundation in that speech of 2nd November for the explicit declaration that the Prime Minister in that speech pledged himself and the Government to the introduction of a system of compulsion.
In that speech of 2nd November the Prime Minister laid down certain principles and conditions which, so far as I know, satisfied practically the whole of the supporters of the voluntary principle on this side. I will say, quite frankly, that that speech did not satisfy myself, because the Prime Minister stated that the question of Conscription was solely one of expediency, and that is a position I find myself unable to accept. The Prime Minister did explicitly state this, that it was only after proper provision for the manufacture of munitions, and only after the full and efficient maintenance of our necessary industries, and particularly the efficient maintenance of our export industries, it was only in the reservoir left after those two national primary interests had been met that you were to find recruiting ground for the men you are now seeking to enlist. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to suppose just now, or at all events seemed to suggest, that under the arrangements made in the Derby recruiting campaign sufficient security is given to employers engaged in the export trade and vital industries for retaining the men who are indispensable to the successful working of those mills and workshops. I venture to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has satisfied himself that the system as actually working to-day gives anything like material security to the employers that they will have the men necessary for their business?
I am connected with very large businesses which are engaged in making war materials. The men engaged are all badged by the Munitions Department, and recruiting officers have instructions not to enlist badged people.
The right hon. Gentleman obviously is not affected by this matter. I am only referring to those who are engaged in what are known as export trades. Take the textile trade, of which I know something, as an illustration. Under the scheme as it is now being worked there is no satisfactory security that the employers engaged in carrying on this trade will retain the men who are indispensable to the successful carrying on of their works. I know perfectly well there has been a schedule of exempted occupations issued by the Board of Trade dealing with various industries. I am not at the present moment going to question the completeness of that schedule of exempted occupations. Is it the fact that under the circular issued by the Government under which local committees, and especially local tribunals, are expected to work, nothing like satisfactory security is given to the employers on this question? I speak with no special authority on this matter, but the Colonial Secretary will doubtless correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that the only security given to the employer is this, that if a man who is indispensable to his business has enlisted and has not yet been attached to a military unit or sent on to join the Colours, the employer may appeal to the local tribunal and present his case that that man should be withdrawn and recovered for the purpose of doing his work. But in the case of a man, although he may be indispensable to a particular industry, who has not only enlisted but who has been attached to a military unit of some battalion, then I understand the employer has no right of appeal to the local tribunal in a case of that particular kind. It is perfectly certain that no sufficient understanding has yet been arrived at between the military authorities and the Government on the one hand and the manufacturers engaged in vital industries in this country at the present time, and I do repeat, and I would like to emphasise and call the attention of the Colonial Secretary to this point, that unless the Government will co-ordinate the whole of their arrangements, and prevent one Department of the State working directly opposite to the interests of another Department of the State, and unless they will see that the Intelligence Department of the Board of Trade is not thwarted in its efforts to maintain indispensable industries by over zeal on the part of recruiting agents of the Government—unless we have some security of that kind, nothing but great disaster can occur in connection with the commercial and financial position of this country.
I desire to refer to an almost graver aspect of this question which was indicated in the speech of my hon. Friend (Mr. Whitehouse). The Prime Minister not merely gave us those two safeguards in his speech of 2nd November, but he added this further most material safeguard, that he could not conceive of the employment of compulsion in any case except under what was practically general or national assent. I want to ask this question in all frankness and candour: Is it the case that anybody on the Government Bench does assume at the present moment that there is the remotest possibility of national assent to the employment of Conscription in the near future? If that position is seriously held by any member of the Cabinet to-day he is living in a fool's paradise, and he is imperilling conditions to an extent of which he cannot at present have any conception. Do the Government realise how great, how influential, how strong is that body of opinion amongst labouring men to-day in various parts of the country? I will speak for only one part of the country with which I am familiar. Do the Government realise how strong is the feeling of revolt and the spirit of determined opposition to any approximation to the employment of compulsion in the West Riding of Yorkshire at the present moment? It is no use mincing matters. It is no use stopping to argue whether that body of opinion is right or wrong. That body of opinion is there, and the Government have to reckon with it when they hastily attempt the employment of compulsory methods of recruiting in this country.
I am not sure that the Government have not an even greater menace in front of them—in the possibility that that body of revolting opinion may be greatly reinforced by some who are not themselves working men to day. There are many men in this House who have taken upon themselves public pledges on their election platforms and by life-long conviction who will not lightly acquiesce in any decision which they do not believe to be well founded in the facts of the situation and which is contrary to every profession of faith that they or their political party have ever put forward. I warn the Government that they may find themselves in the position of even having to avail themselves of the powers of the Defence of the Realm Acts in the case of some Members of Parliament as well as in the case of some others. Then there is the question of privilege referred to by my hon. Friend. I regard it as a very grave sign of the times indeed that it should be possible for any agent of the Government to-day to issue a notice of this kind implying statutory powers without a shadow of support or authority from the British Parliament or the British House of Commons. That is a very grave matter indeed. I would ask the Government this: If they think the conditions of the campaign and the needs of the time compel the use and possession of drastic powers of this kind, will they take their courage in both hands and close the House of Commons? I would rather have the House of Commons closed to-morrow, so that the Government might have the entire responsibility for their acts than give to them the form of Parliamentary support when the Parliamentary influence which we exercise to-day is a mere shadow of the great reality. I claim to have a right as a Member of the House of Commons to be protected from this sham condition of things which prevails to-day. If the Government want to keep us in session in order that we may authorise their acts, do not let them cut the ground from under our feet in advance by allowing their agents to claim and to assert powers which are valid only when they are made valid under the statutory authority of this House.
I frankly say that both the Debate to-day and the subject that is responsible for the Debate, namely, Lord Derby's assurance from the Prime Minister, are in themselves the worst possible thing that could have happened at this present moment. It is very unfortunate, when we had reached the stage when those who are ardent voluntaryists and were prepared to take risks in defence of their principles equally with those who believe in Conscription, felt that they had arrived at some solution that would at least retain the unity of the country which is so essential in this War. I frankly say that from the time Lord Derby's scheme was introduced, as I stated in conversations and discussions which I myself had with Lord Derby, strong as I felt the position to be, strong as I knew the feeling of the working classes to be, I was determined that it was the duty of both sides at least to give the Derby scheme a fair chance and see what it would do. Therefore I am going to submit that a grave injustice has already been done by this letter, and I am afraid that injustice will be done by the Debate which has been forced on the House to-day.
Before coming to that I want to refer to two incidents which happened yesterday, because there appears to be a complete misunderstanding as to what the working men in the country are thinking to-day. Yesterday one, probably, of the most brilliant Ministers, one whose ability has unquestionably been of service to the State, found it necessary to give certain explanations. Those explanations must inevitably mean explanations from someone else. The feeling of the working men of the country is this: "If we are called upon to make sacrifices; if you are asking us to give of our best; if we are giving up our sons, our brothers, and our fathers; then surely we have a right to expect from you some example and not merely quarrelling amongst yourselves." It is no good disguising it; these facts have to be faced. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) said that he believed that 99 per cent. of the people of this country want to see this war waged to a successful conclusion. I entirely agree with him. The best evidence is the sacrifice which all classes are making. But surely, if that be the fact, the poorer people, the more ignorant people, the people who have not full knowledge of the facts, are at least entitled to ask for some example from those at the head of affairs. I say quite frankly they are about sick of the miserable quarrelling between those who are conducting this War. In the next place, seeing that a statement was made, I cannot help feeling that some reference ought to have been made to the circumstances which drove Prince Louis from office. I have never spoken to Prince Louis, I know nothing about him, but I protested at the time, and I protest now, against the kind of slander that was responsible for driving him from office. If a man is competent, if he is capable of doing his job, it is a bad day for this country, or any other, if the mere suspicion of his nationality is going to be sufficient to hunt him out of public life. I submit that every man has a right to a fair chance. Every man ought to be heard. I at least protested at the time. Just as I would protest for a dustman, so I would protest for a prince, if in my opinion justice had not been done.
I now come to the question raised by the Prime Minister's speech. My interpretation of that speech was this: He said, "Although a voluntaryist myself, although believing the voluntary system to be the best, I am not prepared at this stage to make Conscription a question of principle; but I am prepared to say that, so anxious am I, and the Government, to win this War, although I do not think it will be necessary, although I hope it will not be necessary, yet if it is necessary, I am prepared to adopt some other means." I think that is a fair interpretation of the Prime Minister's speech. Certainly that is the interpretation that I place upon it. He clearly implied—I am quite prepared to admit it; it is no use boggling over words—when he said "other means," the only other means was compulsion. Let us be quite frank about it. He clearly implied that. But he did not imply, he could not suggest, and no one would put into his mouth the suggestion, that he or the Cabinet intended to introduce any other means except by the wish, will, and determination of the House of Commons. Therefore this position was left when that speech was delivered: "Voluntaryism is on its trial. I at least am prepared, if compelled, to adopt some other means, but those means will not be adopted until Parliament itself has determined." But just as that was my interpretation of the speech, I submit it is equally wrong to suggest that the assurance drawn from the Prime Minister was the same as that. It was nothing of the kind. The assurance went beyond that, and it has been used to suggest that compulsion must come in after the 30th of this month if the scheme fails. I put it to the House that that is not only an entirely different proposition, but it is a violation. It is a violation of the agreement with the Labour party. Lord Derby himself knows that is a violation. Lord Derby has been told that it is a violation. Does anyone dare suggest that, after the Trade Union Congress, which was unanimous, had expressed its opinion, where the organised workers in no uncertain manner stated their view, six leaders of the men or any executive committee would have dared enter into an agreement and say: "We will give the scheme a chance, but after six weeks we agree to compulsion?" Of course they would not have dared do it. The whole labour movement would have repudiated them for doing it. They could not possibly have done it. But that, unfortunately, is the capital that has been made upon the Prime Minister's speech. The next day the "Daily Mail" came out with a placard, "Eighteen days more for single men." I submit that it is unfortunate, it is regrettable, that at a time when this scheme was working well, and when everybody was giving of their best—I venture to say it is still working well, and I hope will continue to work well—that this kind of thing should be introduced. I want to deal with this question of the single man. Of course, if someone was merely to ask any of us whether the single man should go before the married man, everyone, whether he be voluntaryist or conscriptionist, would most certainly say, "Yes."
An HON. MEMBER: No!
Well, some of course might not, but at least I should. That does not appear to me to be arguable. At all events let us agree upon that point. That, however, is an entirely different thing to saying, "We will compel all single men to go." Take, for instance, a family of six sons, five of whom have already gone to the War. The remaining one is, say, the sole support and maintenance of his father and mother. Would not there be as equally strong an argument to say that that man should not go as there would be to say that the married man with no family whatever should not go? Let me develop that argument one stage further. Take the case of men between twenty-five and thirty years of age. Some of these men possess the best brains in the country. Some of them are running some of our greatest commercial concerns. The very presence of these men, although they are single men, is essential to the employment of large numbers of other people. I put it to hon. Members that before even the question of the compulsion of single men can be considered, surely we are bound not only to consider it stage by stage, but to realise that it is a mere fallacy to suggest that all single men must be pushed into the Army and all married men left outside? I do hope on a general question of compulsion that the Government will make no mistake.
It is a difficult matter at a time of national crisis, stress, anxiety, and sorrow, to say things that compel one to be misunderstood. I did not, in the last speech I made, even make the threat that was attributed to me. I make no threat to-day. But that is entirely a different position from stating what one feels will happen. I want to see this War waged to a successful conclusion. The overwhelming masses of the people of this country, I believe, want to see it waged to a successful conclusion. I can conceive nothing worse than a stalemate. I submit that success can only be achieved by unity of the nation. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea, talking about finance, says it does not count. That is too absurd. The argument of the right hon. Gentleman may apply to two of the nations directly fighting, just as in a strike I have known men reach a stage when even money did not matter. They have reached a stage of desperation when they tightened their belt, as it were, to go on. I say that frankly. That is a conceivable position, but that is not the position of this country. If the position of Italy, France, and Russia were excluded, and it was a war between two nations over a given frontier, I can quite understand that argument applying; but is it not well known that Italy, France, and Russia are able to supply men and to continue the War for one good solid reason—namely, the financial security of this country? That introduces into the question an entirely different element to that introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea. On the other hand, do not let the Government forget that this question is being badly prejudiced. I do not think, and I speak quite frankly, that there would have been such an opposition if it had not been for certain circumstances. You have got to face those circumstances now. The first is that when the question was introduced it was introduced on the grounds of a cheap Army. You cannot blame the working men for saying, "Oh, it is not Conscription they want, but it is cheap soldiers." The hon. Baronet opposite need not dissent. The statement was, as a matter of fact, made in this House as well as outside. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no!" and "By whom?"] By the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Fare-ham (Colonel Lee), and the statement was made in the other House as well. I am trying to be fair in my argument; it may be right or it may be wrong; but the fact remains that the working man has got clearly in his mind what I say.
I am informed that the Member for Fareham expressly repudiated that statement, and wrote to the papers to say so.
As a matter of fact, I made the statement in the presence of the hon. Member for Fareham. I quoted it, and he admitted the quotation that I then gave in this House. At all events my point for the moment is not whether the Government's idea would be that, not as to whether those would be the factors that would weigh with the Government, for I do not think they would. What I am rather trying to point out is that this was the feeling that the working men of the country got. In the second place, they bitterly resent the kind of Press campaign that has engineered the whole of this thing. Again, I frankly say that the Government is not responsible for that. These, however, are the circumstances that the Government must take into consideration. The next point, and I think one which the Government must face, is this: they must keep clearly in mind that if they say to the working man, "We will take your labour," that they are taking his only capital. My labour is my only capital. Hon. Members who advocate this thing say we want equality of sacrifice in defence of the nation. Shortly, that is their case. If that is so, my labour being my capital, to make the sacrifice equal, everybody's capital must be taken. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh! and 'Four and a half per cent.'"] Never mind the 4½ per cent. Let us follow the argument home. Here is a man who can leave his wife and family and go to the War, leaving behind an income of £1,000 or £2,000 a year. I quite admit that his life is as precious to the wife and family he leaves behind as is that of a man in any other section of society; but at all events his death, if he is killed, will not bring his wife and family to the poverty line. But take the man who has got £300, £400, or even £500 a year, a middle-class man if you like, living up to his income, with no capital accumulated, and a few children. Is the sacrifice between those two men equal, or is the sacrifice that their wives have made equal? I put it to hon. Members that it is not equal. I put it to hon. Members who talk of Conscription and of equal sacrifice that the measures that should accompany Conscription should make it perfectly clear that the sacrifice is to be equal.
My last word is this: I do not believe any Government could force a Bill through the House of Commons. The alternative to that would be an election. I am going to try and face this alternative. Assume, if you like, that you are going to win that election. That would compel those who were returned on the other issue to fight the whole measure stage by stage and line by line. That is an assumption that has got to be faced. I can conceive of a further alternative—of a Minister saying, "Well, it may be true what you say, but as in the American war a bold step has to be taken." On the other hand I do not believe for a moment that any Minister, whatever his views may be on this question, would welcome the task of coming down to this House and introducing the measure. I do not think it would be possible. But I do believe that there are men to-day in this House and in the Cabinet who misunderstand the strong feeling that is outside. I beg of them not to misunderstand. I beg of them to realise that the working men will continue to make sacrifices, but that the voluntary system has not failed. Let them realise that the commitments of our Allies, whatever they were and whenever they were made, were made by a Government that did not anticipate Conscription; they were made by the Government on the assumption that voluntaryism could supply all they were promising. Surely, neither the Allies nor anyone else can complain in the least of the contribution and sacrifices which this nation has made! I hope from now until the end of November, or until the end of December, or whatever any other date may be fixed, whether we are voluntaryists or Conscriptionists, we will at least be determined not to be able to say: "Look, I told you so; my view is going to predominate." Let us be united. Let us realise that the manhood of this country will respond if honestly appealed to. Do not let us assume, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea assumed, that every man he meets in the street has got no responsibility. Men do not go about advertising their difficulties. Men do not go running about and saying they have got a widowed mother, or an invalid sister, or a father out of work. Why should they advertise that? I say that all those factors have got to be considered. I hope they will be considered. I hope and pray that no Government will be compelled to introduce any other measure, but that we will be able to win this War, win it well, and that the common experience, the common danger that has brought all classes together, that has enabled rich and poor to realise the difficulties of each other, as they never realised them before, will continue to work as hard and as strenuously for a better time for those who are making the sacrifice.
I agree with the hon. Member who had just spoken that this Debate in itself is unfortunate, and it is especially unfortunate that it has to take place of necessity in the absence of the Prime Minister. I can only say to the House that he is engaged on duties connected with the War which make it absolutely impossible for him to be here, although I cannot specify in what way he is engaged. Now it is in every way unfortunate that he is absent. The speeches have been directed to his previous utterances, and no one can speak with anything approaching the authority which he exercises, both personally and as the head of the Government. And, unfortunately for me, I only knew an hour ago that I was called upon to try and fill his place this afternoon, which makes it all the more difficult. I do not think anyone can have listened to the speech of the hon. Member who addressed us last without feeling the utmost sympathy for the sincerity of the views which he has put before us. He has shown us, not only to-day but all through the War, that he is as determined as any man in this House or out of it to see it to an end, and to the only end we are prepared to face.
I heard in the course of this Debate an interruption from somebody else in the House—I do not know who it was—who, in speaking of the objection of men to serve, said they do not believe in the War. Let the House realise that. I do not mean for a moment that the hostility to any form of compulsion is confined to those who take that view—very far from it—but among the difficulties to which the hon. Member refers he must not leave this out of sight, that, whatever men in this country do dislike the War, and who do desire that we should end it before we have won it, they will use to the utmost the feeling of hostility towards this measure in order to propagate their own views. I am not afraid of those views, and I venture to say for myself that I do not believe there is a constituency in this country which would return to this House again a man who openly expresses those views.
I have only one qualification—if it is one—for speaking on this subject, and that is that I have always regarded it with perfect calmness, and without any heat on one side or the other. It is my business to-day to explain the views of the Government, and of the head of the Government. But—perhaps I can do it without wearying the House—I can do it as well by first of all saying what my own position in this matter has been throughout. When this War began, realising how big it was going to be, I did not think that the voluntary system was the best system. I thought that it involved a waste by taking the wrong men, and an unfairness by sending three or four of one family while none were going from another. I thought all that, but I realised something more. I felt, and I feel now as strongly as at any time, that you can gain a better system at too big a price: that the advantages you would get by changing the system would be dearly bought by dividing the nation. And, therefore, I have always said—I said it from that bench, and I said it from the platform when in Opposition—that so long as we could get the men that were necessary by the voluntary system it would be useless to try to change it, and it would be wrong to try to change it.
That is my view, and, therefore, I say to the House that the whole question to my mind hinges on this: Will it, or will it not, be the case that without some change in the system we cannot get the number of men which we ought to supply in order to bring this War to a successful termination? I should like to say a word or two about what has been said by the hon. Gentleman. He said that this has been started in the wrong way. I am with him. I think that a great deal of harm has been done to the cause of those who wish to change the system by the way in which it has been advocated. But the harm has not been all on one side. It is no business of mine to defend particular sets of newspapers. I have as little reason to do it as anyone else; but I think it was one of those papers which first made the discovery, at all events on the Unionist side, that I was a dull dog, with nothing in me. I have no grievance about that. But it is not all on one side, and the House has to remember that quite as much harm is done in exciting feelings on the other side by talks about conspiracies which never existed in regard to this question.
The hon. Member said that this was recommended to the working classes as a means of getting a cheap Army. Such an idea would have been the most contemptible that it is possible for me to imagine. When the reference was made to my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Colonel Lee), which, I am sure, the hon. Member made in perfect good faith, I myself had a recollection which was confirmed by my hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), that he had repudiated that idea, and that what he meant was the difference between the cost of the two Armies, not from the rate of wages mainly, but from the whole system on which our Armies were run. I think that was his view. At all events, that is a view which one can quite understand, and I think the whole House has proved that there is no such feeling. I can certainly say for myself that at the very beginning of this War I realised as strongly as I could realise anything that the men who were risking their lives had the first claim upon us, and that we were bound to look after them in a way they had never been looked after before. We all tried to carry that out in the Committee about the pensions, which, I think, made not bad recommendations. We all tried to carry that out, not one or the other, but the whole House and country, and the hon. Member can dismiss from his mind any idea that on the part of anyone whatever there is any feeling except this, that the men who are fighting are to be treated as the children of the country, and are to have the first claim on the whole resources of the country.
I agree with the hon. Member in another respect. We are asking these men who go to the trenches to give up everything, not merely their capital but perhaps their lives. I agree with him absolutely that we have no right whatever to make a demand like that unless we are prepared to spread it over the whole nation, and to take from every man and every class anything that is necessary to bring this War to a successful conclusion. I do not agree—I am going to speak quite frankly—in thinking that you can have perfect equality, that one man will be exactly the same as another. That cannot be either in war or in peace; but I do say this, and I think the Government have shown they are acting up to it to a considerable extent—we have shown it in many ways—that to my mind it is a small thing to demand the wealth of the people of this country in comparison with demanding that they should risk their lives.
7.0 P.M.
Let me come to the gravamen of the Debate to-day. It is, as I understand it, as was stated by the hon. Member for Mid-Lanark (Mr. Whitehouse), that a new position had been created by Lord Derby's letter. Let me say, in the first place, as it is only fair to Lord Derby to state—and I am sure the Prime Minister, whom I had not even an opportunity of consulting before the Debate, would say—there was nothing in that circular issued by Lord Derby which was not issued with the approval of the Prime Minister, so that at all events no blame rests on Lord Derby. I am bound to say, after listening to all the speeches which have been made on the subject, that, excepting the use of different words, I can find no discrepancy between what was said by the Prime Minister in this House and what appears in that circular; and I shall try to make that clear. But, before I do so, and perhaps I can simplify the matter, if I say clearly what I understood to be the meaning of the Prime Minister, and I have the advantage of having heard it explained both in the Cabinet and in the House of Commons. As I understood him, his meaning was this: He made it quite plain to us in the Council, as well as in the House of Commons. He said: "I have the strongest possible antipathy to any compulsory system. I do not believe it will be necessary. We have started this scheme under the auspices of Lord Derby, and I ask everyone, whatever his views, to give that scheme the best chance. If you do, in my opinion it will succeed, and all the disadvantages of dividing the nation will disappear." But he said to us: "I am responsible for winning this War. I believe we will get the men that are necessary by these means; but if not, what then? We must have the men to win! What then? And he said in the House of Commons that if this scheme failed, then other means, which he would recommend, would be adopted. Could anything be clearer than that? I do not think so. As I understood it, both in the Council and in the House of Commons, it meant this, that there might well be room for a difference of opinion when the 30th November came as to whether or not the scheme had succeeded. I quite admit that. That was not prejudged at all, and knowing the Prime Minister's views, knowing how strongly he feels on this subject, I think everybody who is opposed to a form of compulsion could feel perfectly certain that he will not recommend a change unless it really is proved that the present system cannot bring the results which are necessary in order to bring this War to a successful conclusion. Let me look as well as I can into the specific grounds on which it is said there are differences of opinion. What are they? First of all I heard one hon. Member state, and it greatly surprised me, that my right hon. Friend was only speaking for himself and not for the Government. As a matter of fact, he is quite wrong in the ordinary sense of the word. He says, and specially emphasises, that he was speaking for himself and not for all his colleagues when he said he disliked a change of system, though he hoped and believed it would not be necessary to adopt it. Then he was speaking for himself only, but when it comes to a statement of what he actually proposed he used the words which are always used by the head of any Government when he is announcing what the intentions of that Government are. Here are his words:— what was said elsewhere. It is said that he dwelt upon the fact that he did not think this could be done without consent. That is quite true, but he said that he did believe, if those conditions arose, there would be general consent, and remember it all hinges upon that. What is meant by general consent? Does anyone in the world imagine that upon a question like this, which has been a burning question for a generation at least, you will get everybody to agree. Nobody expects it.
I remember saying in a speech just after the Coalition Government was formed that for any step like this you must have the approval not only of the majority of the people of this country, but of the majority of the classes who are affected by the change. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I quite agree. But admitting the conditions which are laid down as essential, does anyone believe that that assent would not be given? Putting aside prejudice—and I appeal especially to the hon. Gentleman who last addressed us—putting aside the idea, and you can put it aside, that this is a case where the well-to-do classes want a cheap Army—I know it is widely held—it is utterly untrue to say that we do not want this to end the War but for after the War. I put it to any hon. Member of this House to go round to the poorest districts of any city or town in this country and look at cases where one family sends three sons, perhaps has lost two of them, and then you find another family with sons not one of whom has gone. Do you think the working classes do not resent that? I am sure they do. I was told by a Member of this House what happened in his constituency. In one of the very districts where they say the opposition to this proposal is strongest there was a shopkeeper who had three sons, and none of them had enlisted. He had a couple of shops—I am not recommending this as a measure of compulsion—and the windows were broken, not by men, but by the wives and mothers of those who had sons and husbands fighting at the front, and who resented this man's sons remaining. There is such a feeling, and if it is given fair play by the leaders of organised labour I do not believe for a moment that, given the essential conditions, you will not have general consent to the adoption of any plan which is necessary to end the War. I really do not know that there is anything more to say, but I should like to deal with one or two of the points which have been raised. The hon. Member for Mid-Lanark (Mr. Whitehouse) said that this proposal of Lord Derby's was not getting fair play because you were using all sorts of compulsion.
I said the voluntary system.
I think there is a great deal in that. I think exception ought to be taken to it by those who are in favour of open compulsion, and not by those who are advocating the present system. Does the hon. Gentleman suppose that this kind of compulsion is beginning now for the first time? If he does, he knows very little about it. All through this War every kind of unfair compulsion has been used. People have had white feathers sent them, and we cannot help that. But you have had something far worse than that. You have had employers telling men, "We will not keep you; we will not pay your wages; you have got to go to the front." That has been going on all the time, and why take exception to it now? The only justification for this pressure is that it gives the voluntary system a better chance of success and avoids the risk of dividing the nation by raising another issue at a time like this. My own views have changed about this question. Very early in the War the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee proposed that all the election agents should be used in every constituency to go canvassing people, time after time, to go to the front. When my Noble Friend came to me I said, "I will not allow anything of the kind in any organisation with which I am connected." I thought it utterly unfair, but I felt so strongly—and I feel so strongly now—the need of getting the men and the necessity of avoiding a division in the nation, that I raised no further objection, and I was willing to give this new scheme every possible chance. Does the hon. Member think that what we are doing is wrong, and that what the Prime Minister said was wrong? They brought forward the argument, "You do not consider financial considerations. You do not consider the supply of munitions, or that we must have a certain amount of exports." Do these hon. Members think those views have been dumb in the Cabinet all this time? Do they suppose that those considerations have not had the fullest weight, and did not the Prime Minister make it perfectly plain that in insisting upon getting the Army which this country could afford he meant, after making every allowance which could be reasonably made, for all the necessary services to carry on the industries of the country? That is what he meant.
The right hon. Baronet (Sir A. Mond) spoke contemptuously about finance. I am not in as good a position as he is to know how little value money is, but I think it does count enormously. The right hon. Gentleman was light when he said that the Napoleonic Wars were not won by money but by the uprising of all the nations of Europe against tyranny similar to that which is trying to be imposed to-day. That is quite true, but it was our commerce and our financial resources which enabled us to keep our flag flying and to be the rallying point for these nations. I feel that our financial resources do represent one of the strongest assets for all of us. I should like to say something more on that. If anyone thinks that we can so arrange our finances in this country as to carry on indefinitely, perhaps for twenty years, a war like this, they are quite mistaken. Our financial resources have to be thrown into the scale to get a quick decision. That is the only way. Surely, I am not wrong in stating that we are in precisely the same position as the great Armies which are now fighting on the Continent. France has an Army of 7,000,000. She knows perfectly well that she cannot keep it up to that level for any considerable number of years, but she hopes to keep it at that level long enough to beat her enemies, and it is precisely the same with finance. We cannot go on for ever, but we must go on long enough to outlast the enemy. That is true, but do not forget that the War will depend upon the number of fit fighting men who at the decisive time and theatre can be brought together. No financial arrangement could be worse than that in order to try to go on for years we should fail to produce the largest Army which we can produce in order to bring it to the speediest termination that is possible That is the best finance. The sooner you end it, the better it will be for finance as for everything else.
I have only one thing more to say. I admit at once that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) made no threats. I am quite sure that he represented what he believes to be the real feeling of the classes for whom he speaks. I will put this to him and to every other leader of labour in this House and out of it. Let him put himself in the position of the Prime Minister. Those of us who have been in the Cabinet know that he hates the idea of a change in the system under which we are raising our Army, and for myself I must say that I think it will be something on which this country will look back with pride if we are able to finish this terrible War without a change. The Prime Minister holds that view far more strongly than I do. He more than any other man is responsible for the success of this War now and for the future of this country. Suppose he comes honestly to this conclusion—and I think it likely, if we do not get the numbers under this scheme—that to win this War we need these men and must have them, what is he to do? He believes that; he thinks the system will, if not lose the War, mean that it will go on for an indefinite time and cause an increasing loss of life. What is he to do? Is he to consent to carry on the War under a system which he thinks cannot succeed? Put any one of you in his place, and what would you do? You would say this: "I believe this is necessary. I cannot be responsible for the conduct of the War without. I believe my countrymen will back me, but, if any section of them refuse, very well, let them take the responsibility of ending the War, for I will not."
I have not had the privilege of speaking in this House for a very long time, but as I can claim the privilege of having served actually in the trenches longer, I think, than any other Member in this House—for over a year I have been with that wonderful democracy, the British Army, where we have no politics, and where we have no class, that wonderful brotherhood which has grown up—I am going to crave the indulgence of the House to say a very few words upon this subject which has arisen. I must confess that I am a little disappointed at some of the things which I have heard this afternoon. I am only speaking as one of a million, and I say when one gets into that frame of mind that when you wake up in the morning you are not quite certain that you will ever see another night, you come to look upon the realities of these things, and you begin to realise that words do not count very much. I was very disappointed with the speech of the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sherwell), because he seemed to me to labour so much the question of what had been our political principles and our party views in years gone by. Are those considerations at this moment? Does it matter twopence to any of us if we are going to lose our seats when a million of our countrymen are possibly losing their lives? I have done my best for the voluntary system, so I can speak without bias. For seventeen years I endeavoured to fit myself for this occasion, and I did my utmost to make successful the territorial system.
At the present moment it seems to me that the thing we have got to consider, as the Colonial Secretary says, is how this War can be brought to a successful conclusion quickly. Some people say, "Let us rely on our finance. Let us finance other countries." What about the men in the trenches? Have they got to wait from five to ten years whilst this expense is going on, or are you going to give them a chance of victory by giving them the decisive man-power at the decisive moment at the decisive point? I heard an eloquent speech from a general four days ago—he was speaking to the battalion I command—and he said, "Whatever happens, you are going to stick it." The British Army has before had a long war. We had a seven years' war and a thirty years' war." Going off parade a man was heard to say, "Cheer up, mates, I have always heard that the first thirty years of war are the worst." When I listened to one or two of the speeches this afternoon I realised that a dissimilar view was held by one or two Gentlemen here. I believe that the whole House will agree very much with what was said by the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas). Many things which he said are obviously questions which must be weightily considered. He mentioned the case of the young man who may be left in a family. I know the case of a father who has served for many years and who has four sons in the same regiment. There is one boy at home carrying on the business. Surely no system could be proposed which would be so mad as to let that business go while that family is giving so good a quota to the service of the State.
On this question of the married men, perhaps the greatest point which has arisen, apart from the injustice to the individual is that this War is really rather expensive. It is no small sum that this country is having to find in money, and I do not think that we all of us yet realise what the Pension Bill is going to be if we rely as much in the future as we have done in the past upon the goodwill of the man who recognises his responsibility and comes forward. I believe that the United States at the present moment are suffering in their whole financial system owing to the pensions of the Civil War so long ago. It is often suggested that if we have to change our system there will be a question of the union of the nation. I want to put this to the Labour leaders. I call myself a labouring man, because I am fighting with men where, as I have said before, we have no class any longer. All that kind of thing has gone. If in the opinion of the Cabinet, if in the opinion of their naval and military advisers, if in the opinion of the experts this War can be ended, let us say, in June by finding another million trained men, I cannot believe that labour would revolt if we changed our system. If by bringing in a selected universal service in the next few months we are possibly going to save the lives of something like half a million men, not only rich people but their comrades in the mines, the factories, and other walks of life, who are fighting at the present moment, and anybody who tells me that the working classes, if they are told that those lives are going to be saved, will hesitate, I say that I do not believe it. It is a slander upon the working classes.
I agree fully with my right hon. Friend (Mr. Bonar Law) that it would be an extraordinary thing if under the voluntary system we could defeat the most highly-organised military power of the world. There is one little point which is overlooked, and it is the question of training. You may hang on and hang on and say, "Yes, I am getting driblets now, and I am speculating on getting further driblets next month and the month after, but without training it is simply murder." In previous wars it may have been possible to throw hastily trained men into the fighting line immediately, but I believe we can make no greater mistake in this War. There is nothing so cruel as to throw ill-trained troops into the firing line under the conditions of the modern inferno. It is a test which can only be stood by the highest discipline, and to anybody who thinks to the contrary, I say with all respect that they have not been there. In my humble opinion, and, I believe, in the opinion of most soldiers, six months is not enough to make such troops as can attack with success against the Artillery and machine-gun power of our enemies. It is our business, although the War may be finished before the whole of the resources of the nation are involved, so to train those men that they will not be asked to go into battle without that real training which will carry them through.
I am sure that a great deal of opposition to this question has arisen because there are gentlemen who all their lives have been sincerely opposed to what is known as militarism, and after what we have seen in the German Empire that is readily understandable, but you cannot defeat a highly organised militarism with a voluntaryism which may be trained in a month or two months, and surely what should be realised at this time before everything else is that this is not a question of militarism or anti-militarism. It is a clear issue: Is the British Empire going to exist or is it going to come to an end? If there are gentlemen who still fear the effects of militarism on those who have not yet joined the Forces of the Crown in defence of our Empire, I would only like to say to them, "My experience has been so utterly to the contrary, my experience has been that the elevation of character has been so amazing, that I ask them to believe me that their protégé will not suffer damage from going into the British Army at the present moment." In half an hour of an intense action I have seen more Christianity, more elevation, and more nobility than I have seen in the rest of my life. I may say, in conclusion, I believe that if 1he whole nation shares with us the bringing about this great victory, you will not find that the men will be tainted—as used to be feared when this was an academic question—by militarism. You will find that there will run through this country a purifying stream of manhood that will come back here and revolutionise the whole thought of this country. I believe you will find you will have a greater movement towards religion. I believe you will find a greater comradeship, a greater striving for social equality than we have ever known before, and I believe, too, that the greatest opponents of that militarism to-day, if they will only realise the wonderfully purifying effect it has on all our minds, will be ready to do everything in their power if Lord Derby's scheme is found not to succeed, to assist their country to speedily end the somewhat strenuous situation in which we find ourselves over the water—they will do everything in their power to bring victory to our arms.
I am one of those who was perfectly satisfied with the Prime Minister's statement, and I am perfectly satisfied with the exposition of it which has been given by the Colonial Secretary. But I would point out that it is not quite in accord with what Lord Derby has said, and that is where the trouble and difficulty have arisen. I am as anxious, as the Prime Minister expressed himself, that voluntary recruiting should be a success. I have said before in this House, and I repeat it now, I am one of those who agree that if it be not a success we must have compulsion. We have got to win this War, come what will, and, therefore, it always has been to me, as the Prime Minister more effectively expressed it, purely a question of expediency. My opposition to, and my denunciation of those who raised the tearing propaganda for, Conscription some time ago was based on my opinion that it was an extremely inexpedient agitation. I held that Conscription was not expedient, and I believe it will not become so, and therefore to carry on that agitation was to do a great wrong to the community. I say it was inexpedient. I rely very much now, as I have always done, on the opinion and decision of the Prime Minister. I have always said I attach the greatest importance to that opinion, and if the Prime Minister comes down to this House and tells us it is necessary, then I am prepared to accept that judgment. But that time has not come, and I believe with the Prime Minister that it will not come.
The statement of the Prime Minister and the exposition given by the Colonial Secretary, I again say are different to the wording—which is rather unfortunate—of Lord Derby's pronouncement. Still, if it becomes necessary on the lines laid down by the Prime Minister, as expressed by the Colonial Secretary, I do not believe there will be any serious opposition in this country. But there would be opposition to compulsion on the lines of Lord Derby's pronouncement. On those lines it is an undesirable thing, and I believe we should fight it. The pronouncement savours too much of a threat, and the people of this country do not like threats. It may not have been intended to be a threat. If it had been issued in the terms of the Prime Minister's statement, it would not have given rise to so much opposition. It is quite right that the single men of this country should be given plainly and clearly to understand that if the numbers necessary do not come forward other means will have to be resorted to. But the impression given by the pronouncement is that it is not a question of a sufficient or requisite number. The im- pression is that, after the 30th November, if all the single men have not come in, they are going to be made to come in. The impression is an unfortunate one. We shall all agree that single men ought to come first. Not necessarily every single man. There are cases such as have been referred to by the last speaker, and by the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas). We all know that that is a matter for consideration and judgment, and that it requires delicate handling.
The real point I wish to put to the Colonial Secretary is this: We have, in the course of this recruiting, now come up against a class very difficult to deal with, those who are placed in a very difficult financial position. It is very difficult for a large number of them to come in. It is the class upon whom, as has already been said, enlistment in the Army falls most heavily—men, say, with incomes of from £150 to £500 a year, living on their salaries, and having no capital to call back upon. Their families are going to be left in a very serious position. They are the class that need, to a large extent, the assistance of their employers. The large employers of this country, and large institutions, are paying enormous sums already, and they are willing to pay more to support those of this class, who are in their employ, but who, however willing they may be, cannot go to the front in comfort or with satisfaction unless they can have financial assistance. I am connected with a business—and I believe every insurance office in this country is paying a substantial sum of money in like manner—the office I am connected with is merely an illustration—in which we have seen to it that every man who goes shall leave his household in as good a financial position as it was before he went. We are doing that, and we intend to do it as long as the War lasts. Positions will be kept open for every man who comes back. That is being done widespread.
The point I want to make is that there must be some reciprocity in return for it. We cannot have men taken broadcast. Businesses cannot be carried on unless a limited number of indispensable and responsible men are left—men like heads of departments. You may fill up your department with a number of men you can get in from the outside, but these men are of little value unless the head is there to guide, supervise and superintend. That one man is necessary, and we do not get it clearly from Lord Derby, we do not get it clearly from the pronouncement that has been made, that these men will be left. It is of no use referring us to the local authorities. The men we employ are spread over a radius of 25 miles round about London. They come under the supervision of scores of local authorities, and we cannot be bothered with those authorities. We want something more definite—something clearer. The men cannot join unless they are paid by their employers and sustained and maintained, and, if we are to do that, we want to be able to carry on our business in their absence. After all they form only a very small proportion of the total number, perhaps not more than 10 per cent. But we do want a clear pronouncement that they will not be taken. There is too much of the confidence trick about the present position. There is too much saying, "Let them come; we will see what we can do." That is not good enough. The business men of this country want something more definite. They want a clear understanding that those who are really indispensable for carrying on the business shall not be taken, and I venture to press that very strongly indeed upon the Colonial Secretary.
Such an assurance would be the means of securing a much larger number of men. They will go willingly and readily if they can have this support, and that support they can have if the business concerns of the country can be carried on. In order to carry them on, however, they must have this limited number of men assured to them. These are nearly all married men; at any rate, the majority are married. This problem has not been grappled with by Lord Derby in quite such a businesslike way as we could have desired. I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) is in his place, and I should like to say a word or two with regard to his financial suggestions. He spoke of a moratorium for fixed obligations. I am not dealing with the question of raising rent; I am dealing with the question of paying it at all. Is it an honest proceeding to say, "Let it stand over"? Who is to pay?
Who is paying it in France?
I have nothing to do with that. I am putting this as a matter of common honesty. If the rent is to be paid for the man, let the nation pay it. Let us be honest about it. Why call upon one particular class to supply houses for them? It is not honest. It is not one class which should pay; it is the nation. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise who owns the houses of this country? It is a common delusion in this House and in the country that the houses in which the smaller people live are owned by the well-to-do people. It is a great mistake. The houses of this country, especially the smaller houses, are owned by the smaller people. Houses are the favourite investment of the smaller people. They know nothing about Stock Exchange investments. They want to put their money into something they can. see.
I was not dealing with the smaller houses at all. I was dealing with houses held on yearly tenancies, or longer, of £30 or £40 a year and upwards; certainly not the smaller ones.
And in the main these houses belong to the smaller people in this country. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the returns of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, he will see classified the property left by various people possessing a certain amount of money, and he will find that in proportion to the amount of money left, the property, houses and land, but mainly houses of the kind he refers to, is held in an enormously large proportion by the smaller people, and not by the larger ones. That is to say, house property is a very much smaller percentage of what is left by well to do people than it is of what is left by comparatively small people. The house property of this country, small and large —excepting, of course, the great houses— belongs to the smaller people, and I say it is not fair that the small tradesman, the man who has retired and who has bought a few houses, should not have a return upon his investment, whereas if he had put his money into a commercial concern such as that with which the right hon. Gentleman is connected, he would have had his dividends. It is not fair. It is not reasonable, and the suggestion I make, if you are going to raise the question that people shall be relieved of certain payments, is that the only proper, and the only honest way to do it will be to put the burden on the nation. You have no business to throw it upon one particular class. It is hardly necessary to say anything now with regard to the right hon. Gentleman's remarks as to the comparative unimportance of money; that has been dealt with, and I do not wish to say any more upon it. I do wish, however, that the Secretary for the Colonies would exercise his influence to procure for us some more definite plan and definite statement with regard to dealing with a mere handful of men in concerns, who are indispensable for carrying on the business I can assure him that at the present moment the arrangements are not considered satisfactory or definite enough by the business men of the country.
I wish briefly to refer to what originated this Debate. Everyone realised that what the Prime Minister originally said left doubt in the minds of the single men and in the minds of married men. It was on account of that that it became necessary to obtain a definite explanation from the Prime Minister. That explanation was communicated to the Press by Lord Derby, and, as a result, the married men, who previously had doubts, are now coming in under the scheme in large numbers. There are some points raised by the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken upon which I am able to give him some assurance. I suppose he realises that the tribunals which are set up under the scheme may possibly be composed of men who have knowledge of every branch of business. I should like to assure him that every appeal which is made to a local tribunal will also come into the hands of the War Office representative who, on every occasion, will be advised by those who have knowledge of the business in which the man is employed, and it will depend upon the advice given by the War Office representative how the appeal will be dealt with by the local tribunal. I know there is considerable fear on the part of employers generally upon this question, and the impression they have ought to be corrected. A month's notice is given to every man before his group is called up. That is the time when the employer will be able to go to the local tribunal and ask that the man should be relegated to a later group. Lord Derby, who is speaking to-morrow night at Glasgow, will make this point absolutely clear. Ample security is being taken in order that such applications shall have proper consideration and be dealt with fairly. They will be submitted first to the advisory body, then to the local tribunal—I hope I may have the right hon. Gentleman's attention for one moment, because it is a point upon which I am able to give him information—and if satisfaction is not received from the local tribunal the matter can be referred to the highest authority which is being set up in London for the purpose.
That is far from satisfactory.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will let me continue. He has also this assurance that where, as may often be the case, it will be impossible for the applicant to come up to London, members will be detached from the central tribunal in London who will consider those appeals in the locality from which the appeals come.
The business men of this country are not prepared to allow the possibility of carrying on their business to be decided by the War Office.
I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman has made that point, because it clearly shows, as I noticed at the time, although perhaps it is conceit on my part to speak of it, that he was not listening to the remarks I had to make on the subject. The right hon. Gentleman did not hear what I said. I will now repeat that the War Office representative will be advised by those who have knowledge of the business in which the man who makes the appeal is concerned, and upon that advice the representative will act. I suppose there is no tribunal which would suit everybody. There are some people who object to the tribunal being appointed from the local authorities. I do not know whether anyone can select a better one. We live, I presume, in a democratic country, and it seems curious that resentment comes from those who are supposed to be democratic against those who are popularly elected being put on a tribunal of this kind. It has been suggested to me on many occasions that the magisterial bench should provide the tribunal, but that is the ore body in this country which is not popularly elected. A point which has been raised, not in this Debate but at other times, is that the employers might desire to retain a particular man. Employers should be definitely assured that that man will never be called upon to serve, but he might well be relegated to a later group. It is impossible, for several reasons, that he should be excused from service altogether. In the first place, there is no assurance that a man will not leave the service in which he is at present indispensable. Again, it might be possible, between the time when the man is first put back to a later group and the arrival of the man to which he is put back, for another man to be trained in his place. The local War Office representative in each area will be instructed to make inquiries as to whether the man is still indispensable in those cases, and if he finds he is and it has not been possible to replace him, he will, on his own initiative, ask the local tribunal to relegate that man to a later group. This means that a man's case having once been before a tribunal and the circumstances not having altered between the time his case was first heard and when it comes up again, he will not have to appear before the tribunal at all.
Some doubt has arisen on the question of starring. The question of starring in agricultural districts is one that has caused more concern to those connected with Lord Derby than any other. It has often been said, and I quite agree, that in agricultural districts starring is not worth the paper it is written upon. An arrangement has been come to whereby every starred man shall have his position as a starred man challenged and every case investigated on its merits. There are many cases of men who are unstarred who ought to be starred, such, for instance, as the farmer who finds that he is unstarred while his men are starred. I could give instances almost so ludicrous in regard to starring that people would hardly believe them. I know a case where a man farms some 80 acres and his two sons are starred as shepherds, while nobody in the locality has ever seen a sheep on the farm at all. There is the instance of a farmer with six sons, five of whom are starred, either as horsemen, shepherds, or cowmen, and only one is unstarred. These cases will have to be gone into. It will be the duty of the local tribunal to go into these cases and see whether those men who were improperly starred cannot have their stars taken off and become recruitable and cannot be approached through the Parliamentary Committees to see if they are prepared to give their services. The impression prevails that a man once starred is starred for all time. For the present Lord Derby is concerned with the recruiting of those who are unstarred. When we have done that it is our determination to go into the question of those who are starred, so that no man who is not indispensable to the carrying on of the interests of this country should not have an opportunity of offering his services to his king and country.
I offer no apology for intervening in this Debate, although the House is very empty and is somewhat tired of the subject. I feel somewhat strongly on this matter, and I should like, if possible, to elicit some further information from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies. This country is divided into three groups; there are a few men who are opposed to all wars and all methods of compulsion; there are a few men who like compulsion for its own sake, but the first idea of the vast majority of the people of this country now is to get at some method of bringing the War to a speedy and successful conclusion. I listened very carefully to what the Secretary of State for the Colonies said, and I was quite astounded that I agreed with everything he said. For the first time since I have had the honour to sit in this House and listen to the right hon. Gentleman, I felt I was in absolute agreement with everything he said. That made me consider why it was that I was able to agree with him, because it is perfectly clear that his inclination is rather in favour of compulsion, while my inclination is rather in favour of the voluntary system. The reason why we are able to agree is because he dealt in generalities. He said at the conclusion of his speech:—
The wrong thing about the present position is that the Government do not take the House of Commons or the country into their confidence and rely upon them as reasonable men. I have been trying to elicit from the Prime Minister and the Under-Secretary of State for War how many recruits are required. We not only do not get that information, but we never have had any information as to the number of men already recruited. The Prime Minister said the other day that we were something short of 3,000,000 men, but he has refused to say how many men would be required to be enlisted by voluntary means before the end of November in order to make the voluntary system a success. The Labour party have placarded the walls of this Kingdom with appeals to labouring men to join the Army, and they have mentioned the figure of 30,000 a week as being the number of recruits that is required. Does the Government agree with that figure? If there are 30,000 recruits a week enlisted up to the end of November, will the Government then say that the voluntary system is successful, or will they say that 30,000 a week is not sufficient? I have been assured that during the most prolific five weeks for recruiting since the War began the numbers have only barely exceeded 30,000—that is, the best recruiting figures we have had in any given five weeks are 150,000, or thereabouts. If 150,000 men are recruited now in the five weeks before the end of November, will the right hon. Gentleman say that has given satisfaction? All I want to know is, What does the Government say will be a satisfactory figure? My right hon. Friend (Sir T. Whittaker) said that if the Prime Minister assured us on 1st December that the recruiting was not satisfactory, he was willing to accept that statement from the Prime Minister. I say at once I am not. I do not like to set myself up as against the Prime Minister in the matter, but everyone has to satisfy his own conscience, and I will give one or two reasons before I sit down which induced me to think that 30,000 is probably a somewhat excessive number to ask this country to recruit. But if the Prime Minister will tell us the numbers that are required in the estimation of the Government, and that those numbers are not forthcoming by the end of November, I think certainly 99 out of every 100 Members in the House will agree. But what we are not satisfied about is that we have never been told either the number of men who have already been recruited or the number of men the Government want to be recruited before 30th November.
Let me put another point to the right hon. Gentleman. The facilities for recruiting have been overtaxed already. The machinery for recruiting is insufficient. Wherever you go, either in one of our great provincial cities or in London, you will see a long queue of people waiting to be recruited in November weather. A great number of people would object to standing in a queue for three, four, or five hours at a time to be recruited, and therefore they put it off until the time comes when recruiting is slack. Those of us who believe in the voluntary system, not merely as a matter of expediency but as a matter of principle, are willing to shed even that principle in order to win the War if it is necessary. But I think it is fair to ask that every possible opportunity should be given to test the voluntary system before we discard it. Having regard, therefore, to the fact that the machinery is inadequate for voluntary enlistment and having regard to the fact that we have recruited nearly 3,000,000 before Lord Derby's scheme began, I should like to ask if it is not fair that we should say, "If you can do as well during the month of November as in any four weeks previous during the currency of the War, therefore the voluntary system is deserving of a further trial." I say that because I saw to-day in a Cardiff paper a report of a speech made by a gentleman in connection with recruiting in South Wales who said that last week he had an interview with the Chief Government Whip, and I think my hon. Friend's name (Mr. Gulland) was mentioned as the man who had been interviewed. In the course of that interview he is said to have told the man who was making the speech that if recruiting was not satisfactory by 30th November, within forty-eight hours compulsion would be introduced.
My hon. Friend drew my attention to that so-called speech quoting a private conversation with me. That private conversation is an entire invention.
I am very glad to hear it, and of course I accept my hon. Friend's disclaimer at once, but that is the sort of statement that arouses suspicion in the minds of people in the country. Speaking for myself, though I suppose I have spoken as strongly on voluntaryism as anyone in this House, if I felt that the voluntary system, having been given fair play, had failed, I for one would give way to the necessities of the country, and say, "Very well, we have done our best with our voluntary system, but we must discard it for this War." But may I ask whether the Government have also considered another aspect of this question? The Secretary for the Colonies, speaking in a way I thought somewhat contemptuous of someone who had spoken before said, "Does the hon. Member think these matters have not been discussed in the Cabinet time after time and again during the last few months?"
My hon. Friend misunderstood what I said. What I asked was, did they suppose these views were not strongly represented by individuals in the Cabinet, who had made the most of them.
What I object to is that these views, though they may be represented in the Cabinet, and though they may have been discussed in the Cabinet, have never been discussed in the House of Commons. In all our Debates the case for the voluntary system has been made out by us private Members on the Back Benches. Hardly a single statement has been made in favour of the voluntary system from those Benches. I know that within the Cabinet these views are represented and are being discussed, but I make no apology for making these observations publicly, because I think public attention ought to be addressed to this aspect of the matter—how far can this country afford to miss more men? I have no views on the matter at all one way or the other, but before we have a compulsory system introduced we ought to have an authoritative statement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer or from the Prime Minister as to the effect which the raising of another million men, as the hon. Member (Lieut.-Col. Page Croft) suggested, would have on the financial and commercial position of the country. It is idle to say that finance has nothing to do with the progress of the War and with the effect of the War. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Lloyd George) at this time last year said that this War would be ended by the silver bullet. It is as true to-day, surely, as it was then—more true. So what is the financial position to-day? Lord Goschen once said, in his book on Foreign Exchanges, that the state of the foreign exchanges was an infallible monetary and commercial barometer. What is the state of the exchanges to-day? I do not profess to be an expert in finance or anything of the sort, but I try to understand these matters as well as a layman can. And what do I find? In Holland to-day 100 English sovereigns are not worth £91; in New York they are not worth £96; in Scandinavia they are not worth £96. For the first time in the history of this country the British sovereign is at a discount in neutral countries. What is the reason for it? We have had to raise a great loan of £100,000,000 in America in order to try and right the American Exchange. We have thrown overboard our Free Trade system in order that we may stop the imports of luxuries in America, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that one of the reasons that induced him to come to that conclusion was that we ought to do something to right our exchange with America.
Why is the exchange with America against us? It is because we are importing more from and exporting less to America than we did before, and unless we can keep up the volume of our exports the exchange in neutral countries will go more and more against us than ever. I notice in the Board of Trade Returns that for the last ten months we have imported £137,000,000 more than in the corresponding ten months of last year, and we have exported £64,000,000 less. That must have a very serious effect on the foreign exchanges. That figure of £64,000,000, the decrease in the exports, is a fallacious one for this reason. Instead of exporting £25,000,000 worth of goods to France we export £75,000,000, so that in spite of the great addition to the exports of France—£40,000,000 to £50,000,000—yet our total export is £64,000,000 less than in the corresponding ten months of last year. The figure of the imports, though they have gone up by £137,000,000 in the ten months, is also fallacious, because it does not contain the imports made directly by the Government of this country in the shape of munitions of war from America. We do not know what the value of those imports is, but they must be very considerable. Therefore when we get our imports rising by leaps and bounds and our exports decreasing in that way, it must of necessity follow that the rate of exchange in neutral countries must increasingly go against us. One of the factors that ought to be considered in this question of raising more men is whether we can afford to deplete our men from our industries so as to prevent us from increasing, if possible, our exports. It is all very well to say that other countries. France, Italy, and Russia, have Conscription, and therefore we ought to have Conscription, but our historical rôle has always been, in the Napoleonic wars, in the Seven Years' War, and now, to finance our Allies. We are the great bankers of the world. We can do better work by financing our Allies than by improvising another million of men in this country.
I notice that the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day interpolated a remark when the hon. Member (Mr. Worthington Evans) was speaking, in which he said that between this and the end of March we were committed to lend another £300,000,000 to our Allies; that is to say £60,000,000 a month. That is pretty well £2,000,000 a day that we have to find to lend to our Allies. Where is the money to come from? Our exports in iron and steel, all the great exports in this country, are decreasing week by week and month by month. One great trade after another is suffering from lack of men. I know of districts in South Wales where you cannot spare a single man. This time last year, when it was proposed to hold recruiting meetings in certain districts near my own Constituency, in Carmarthenshire, we were warned not to hold recruiting meetings because if we did and there was any response at all from that neighbourhood collieries would be shut down and industries would be ruined. I should like to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or from the Prime Minister, or from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bonar Law), who is a business man, whether this aspect has been fairly considered by the Government. The Prime Minister put it more strongly probably than I did, because he said that the first consideration should be how many men we require for maintaining the necessary industries of this country; secondly, how many men will be required to provide the munitions of war, both for this country and our Allies, and then he said, out of the reservoir or the residuum, he used both words, we should have to determine whether there was an appreciable or substantial number of men who ought to he recruited, but who had not been recruited. Therefore, if I understood the Prime Minister aright, the first necessity of this country is to see that munitions of war are provided for ourselves and our Allies, and also that our essential industries, without which this War cannot be carried on, either by ourselves or by our Allies, should be maintained. It must be remembered that we are financing the whole of our Allies; we are financing even France. Therefore, these first two considerations must be met, and from the residuum we must find the recruitable persons.
What I would like to ask the Government is this: If they have made these calculations they ought to know by this time how many men are required for the two main purposes indicated by the Prime Minister, and they ought to know what the residuum or the reservoir consists of. If they do know, why do they not take us frankly into their confidence? We are kept in the dark, and because we are kept in the dark those of us, more or less, who are attached to the voluntary system become somewhat suspicious. It would be much better for the Government, if they want to have the general consent which they say is indispensable to any change of system, to take us frankly into their confidence and to say, "We have recruited already 3,000,000 of men. We want another half million," or whatever the figure may be. If they say that on their responsibility, then I, for one—and I think my hon. Friends who agree with me on this matter will be in the same position—would not be able to say, "These men are not necessary." We should have to accept the figures of the Government. What I am always afraid of, because I know my conscriptionist friends by this time pretty well, is that no sooner does the voluntary system yield a certain result than the demands of the conscriptionists rise. Take the history of this matter during the last fourteen months. What was the first appeal that Lord Kitchener made? It was for half a million men. The men came tumbling over each other to enlist. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Monmouth (General Sir Ivor Herbert), who is a distinguished soldier, and knows what he is talking about, declared that there was not a single man in the War Office in September of last year who believed that that half a million of men could be got except by compulsion or Conscription. What happened was that that half-million of men were got, and a million men were got, and the recruiting machinery broke down hopelessly under the strain. I remember speaking at a recruiting meeting in my own Constituency on 3rd September of last year. It was a meeting of 5,000 or 6,000 men, most of them of recruitable age, and the enthusiasm was at fever point. At the end of the meeting I turned round to the recruiting officer and said, "You will have a bumper day to-morrow." This was his answer, and it was given, remember, in September of last year: "We had to close down our recruiting office last week. So many men have come forward that we cannot cope with the supply, and we have closed down our recruiting office." That was done the week before the first recruiting meeting was held. I said, "Then what is the good of having any meeting at all?" He replied, "If I had been asked, I should not have had it."
When the million of men had been raised the demand was raised. Another million men were required. That million came, and when the two millions were obtained another demand was made. Has that demand failed? It is quite true that during August and the first weeks of September the recruiting figures fell, but everyone knows that August and September are bad recruiting months. No sooner had the figures fallen from 20,000 to, I think, 15,000 a week than the cry for Conscription, was raised in this House. The conscriptionists initiated a debate on 28th July, even before recruiting began to fall. In August meetings were held, and my right hon. Friend (Mr. Ellis Griffith), if I remember rightly, spoke at one meeting at St. James' Hall in August, calling out for Conscription simply because for two or three weeks in August and one or two weeks in September recruiting figures fell below the average. Can it be said now that the recruiting figures are below the average? I believe I am right in saying that the recruiting figures now are higher than they have ever been since the War began. There has been no demand made for voluntary service from the people of this country which has not been amply responded to by the people. The people are not to blame. Whenever they have been asked to do anything they have done it. Whatever is wrong in the conduct of this War is wrong at the top, and not at the bottom. Of course, I agree that there are defects in the voluntary system. I hold no brief for the shirker. I know a few men who ought to have gone who have not gone, but these men are very small in number, and I would urge the Government not to change or discard a system which has done so much for this country during this War, without impairing our national unity, because of exceptional cases that may be cited here and there, and may have been cited in the course of this Debate.
I deprecate very much the talk of expediency, and I am afraid the Prime Minister was guilty of it himself, because he said, "I am strongly in favour of the voluntary system, but I do not believe in it as a principle. It is simply a question of expediency." For my own part I believe in the voluntary system as a matter of principle, and I will tell the House why it is I am so anxious to win this War by means of the voluntary principle. If we can win this War against the greatest conscript nation in the world, a nation which has made might its be-all and end-all; if we can win against Germany by means of the voluntary system, there will be no chance for militarism in this country in the future. But if, even for a few months at the close of the War, we have to resort to Conscription or compulsion, or universal service, or whatever you like to call it, that will be an argument, when the War is over, for having universal military service set up for the first time. It is, therefore, because I am looking forward to the condition of things in this country after the War that I am anxious to preserve the voluntary system. If we cannot win without compulsion, then, however repugnant it may be to me, I should have to acquiesce in it; but I believe, and I profoundly believe, that we can win this War by the voluntary system. I go further, and I say that I believe that it is the only way in which we can win this War. It is all very well to argue and point out exceptional cases where there are three sons who ought to have joined, and so on. Of course, we all know those cases; but if you do away with the voluntary system and compel people against their will, or, it may be, against their conscience, however few the number may be, to join the Army, and to shed blood against their conscience, then there will be an end of national unity, and without national unity you cannot win this War.
The stop-the-war party, the pacifist school, the pro-Germans, call them what you will, in this country are a negligible quantity now. I do not believe that there are two men in this House who are in favour of a premature peace. I do not know how many there may be in the House of Lords. I am perfectly certain that there are not two Members in this House who would make speeches similar to those of Lord Loreburn and Lord Courtney in the House of Lords. This House, this country, is much more unanimous over this War than it has ever been over any war ever waged by this country before. That is a great source of strength to us. It is the thing that is going to win this War. I believe not only in the justice in this War, but I believe that this War must be waged and won to such a conclusion that we can say we have inflicted a grave military defeat on our enemies. If we do not come to that conclusive peace which I look forward to, then all the sacrifices made in this War will go for naught, and we will have to start Conscription in this country for all time. Therefore, I am as earnest, as enthusiastic as any man in this House in favour of carrying on this War to the bitter end; but I say the national unity is indispensable to the successful prosecution of this War. We have it now. The people who are against this War are negligible in number and insignificant in quality, but if you introduce this bone of contention, if you introduce Conscription, if you send your recruiting sergeant to take a man away from his home simply because he is of military age, whether it be that he ought not to go, or does not believe in bearing arms at all, or whether he has other reasons sufficient for himself even against the bulk of public opinion in that locality, whatever may be the reason, if you send your recruiting sergeant down to that place, Tonypandy, or wherever else it may be, to take that man from his home against his will, there is an end of national unity.
I have said before, and I have got since more evidence than I had then, that there are thousands of men in this country, thousands even in London who have a concientious objection to all war. It is no good arguing with them. They are not only Quakers, but other men, religious men, Christians, who have a concientious objection to all wars. What are you going to do with them? A minister of one of the churches came to me only a fortnight ago. He said that in his church in London there are eighty men who will never, whether force is applied to them or not, join the Army, because they do not believe in war. What are you going to do with these men? Are you going to put them into prison? Are you going to shoot them? I know ministers of the gospel, who have never said a word against this War up to now, who assure me that if ever Conscription comes they will preach in their pulpits against the law of the land. What are you going to do with them? Are you going to send them to prison? It is no good saying that these are men of no account. It is the very essence of Quakerism, and of a great number of Christian sects in this country. You may deplore it. I do not agree with it. As I say, I thoroughly believe in the justice of this War, but it is no good telling me that because these men do not agree with you therefore they ought to be overridden. If you make out an overmastering case for Conscription, if you prove to the people of this country that you cannot win the War without it, then those men, whatever the numbers may be, would become negligible. But until you make out a case beyond all reasonable doubt that you cannot win this War with a voluntary system, then those men will have the sympathies of tens of thousands, and the stop-the-war-party, which is now insignificant and is not worth considering, will become a very formidable factor in the life of the country.
I rose to ask two questions, and I would like, if possible, to get the information. First, what number of recruits will be considered by the Government to be satisfactory if they come in before 30th November? It surely cannot be that the Government expect nearly every unmarried man to enlist before the end of November. I think that that is an unreasonable thing to expect. Suppose that from 30,000 to 40,000 recruits a week are enlisted up to the end of November, will the Government then say that the figures are so satisfactory that they are willing to extend the period of voluntary enlistment after 30th November? I think that that is a very reasonable, practical question to ask. I interpret the Prime Minister's speech the other day to mean that, if the rate of recruiting up to 30th November was better than it had been at any other time since the beginning of the War, he was not going to close the book and say, "Voluntary Recruiting is no longer to prevail," but that if he saw an indication that the yield of voluntary recruiting has been so satisfactory in the sense that more recruits are coming in than have been coming in in November, we will say than in the summer months, he will consider the result satisfactory and he will allow voluntary enlistment to go on. I ask that question because Lord Derby has said that he is going to close down his scheme on the 30th November. Does that mean that because Lord Derby is going to close down his scheme on the 30th November no more voluntary enlistment is to take place? I cannot believe that that is so. That is not treating the voluntary system fairly.
The hon. Member for Wolverhampton stated that he thought that before the end of November 1,000,000 men ought to be recruited in the course of six weeks. That is absurd. The machinery does not exist in this country as yet which would enable you to get 1,000,000 men in six weeks. Mr. Garvin, in the "Observer," I think, said that we wanted something like 1,000,000 men also, and General Swain, who is looked on as one of Lord Derby's lieutenants, said that even 3,000,000 men were required before the end of November. I am glad to see that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bonar Law) laughs at that, but that is the sort of statement that has been made. Those statements arouse a great deal, it may be unjust and unnecessary, suspicion in the breasts of those who are attached to the voluntary system. We should be told now before the end of November how many recruits a week they require to regard the result as satisfactory, and then if that number is not obtained I, for one, will be willing to acquiesce in any measures that are decided on, but until then, until we have some means by which we can test whether the voluntary system is satisfactory or not, I am not prepared to accept the Prime Minister's assurance, when he comes down here and says that we must have Conscription. There is no man who has a greater respect that I have for the Prime Minister. There is no one who has followed him more loyally. The suspicion has been aroused that the Prime Minister, strong voluntaryist as he may be, is being rushed by some of his colleagues, who are in favour of Conscription, not merely to end the War, but in favour of Conscription in time of peace as well as time of war. There is a suspicion, not only in this House but in the country, that some Members of forcible personality in the Cabinet may rush the Prime Minister off his feet, as he was rushed in the formation of the Coalition Government. If I were sure that the Prime Minister would not allow himself to be subject to pressure by one side or the other in deciding whether Conscription is necessary or not, I should be quite willing to accept his judgment and his opinion. But these suspicions have been aroused, and a tearing and raging propaganda has been going on for months. My right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Ellis Griffith) has been one of its emissaries and missionaries, supported by a syndicate of newspapers, and he has addressed a meeting in the Queen's Hall—
The hon. and learned Member is repeating many times the same points, and it is my duty to call his attention and that of the House to the Standing Order against repetition.
I do not think I said a word about this propaganda before.
That is a matter for me to judge.
I was just about to finish, Sir. I say that suspicion has been aroused in this country, and that there is a body of Members in this House, and an organisation outside, who are not going to allow the Prime Minister or the Government, if they can help it, to decide this question on its merits. Whether the numbers are satisfactory or not does not enter into their calculation, because long ago, before Lord Derby's scheme was started, they were holding meetings. In conclusion, I hope that the Government will be able to state whether or not the figures are satisfactory in regard to the voluntary system.
( indistinctly heard ): The hon. and learned Gentleman, in his closing sentences, referred to me as an emissary supported by a syndicate of papers. It is quite a mistake, and so far as my propaganda is concerned, I have spoken at public meetings on this subject, and at a meeting in the Queen's Hall—
Got up by Lord Northcliffe.
I spoke in favour of compulsion in this House six months ago, and, anyway, be I right or wrong, I am not a party to any conspiracy or intrigue, nor to any newspaper agitation. I have got up on that side of the House and said that I was in favour of compulsion, and I do not allow the hon. Member, or anyone, to impute to me motives in this matter.
I said the hon. Member spoke at a meeting got up by an organisation of which Lord Northcliffe and the "Daily Mail" were the chief subscribers.
The hon. Member has that information, perhaps, from public newspapers, but I do not know how that may be. However, we are getting far away from the merits of this controversy. I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman has said anything new to-night. He asked the question, "How many men are required for the different Services?" Men are required for fighting, for making munitions and equipment, for internal trade, and for export trade, and in dealing with this question these requirements have to be taken into account. You must have men for each of those four services, and it is only the Government who can decide how to adjust the four relationships one to the other. That is why I have always been in favour of compulsion, and why I am in favour of the Government adjusting the relationships of these four groups.
Do you mean compulsion for industry?
I am in favour of every man assisting his country to the best of his ability and capacity at the present moment, but this system means that he is to assist the country according to his will and not according to his capacity. That is the difference between us. As to the two points raised by the hon. and learned Member, first, that the voluntary system should have a fair trial, and, secondly, that we cannot afford to detach from export trade any more men—
I never made that assertion. I simply asked the Government whether those points would be taken into consideration.
Every Just allowance will be made by the Prime Minister and the Government in respect of necessary work.
That is not what Lord Derby said.
made an observation which was not heard in the Reporters' Gallery.
I would ask that the right hon. Gentleman be requested to withdraw that remark.
I would remind hon. Members that we are now considering a Supplementary Vote of Credit, and I think the point mentioned has nothing to do with War purposes. I would ask hon. Members to keep to the point, without introducing any heat by reason of these outside matters.
The suggestion that the Prime Minister may be rushed by a masterful and resourceful Front Bench into doing a thing in which he does not believe is about the worst compliment I ever heard paid to any statesman in this House. Lord Derby's circular opens with two paragraphs that have been referred to, and the third paragraph begins, "Lord Derby is further authorised to state"—that is to say, that beyond what is contained in the first two paragraphs there is authority for a further statement. That paragraph reads:—
"Lord Derby is further authorised to state definitely that if young men medically fit and not indispensable to any business of national importance, or to any business conducted for the general good of the community, do not come forward voluntarily before 30th November, the Government will, after that date, take the necessary steps to redeem the pledge made on 2nd November."
That, of course, means that they will come to the House of Commons, and my hon. Friend's picture of the recruiting sergeant going to the village on 1st December is beside the point. If the Prime Minister does come to the House of Commons, and he is as strong and convinced a voluntaryist as the hon. and learned Gentleman, who has not, I know, as much confidence in him as he would like, and if the Prime Minister says that you have got to choose between voluntaryism and winning this War, then I am sure my hon. and learned Friend will be one of the first to do what the whole House will do when, of course, we will give up those theories, and principles if you like, in order to win the War. There are only two points. A man may say, and I think there are only two or three of this kind in the House, "I want to make peace." The other man says, "I want to make war." If you want to make war you must not make it necessarily upon the theories of peace time, you must wage it as best you can. If the Government says that this is the way to wage the War, then we may be perfectly prepared to do that.
Armenian Atrocities
I think, if I may say so, that many of us listened with considerable satisfaction and relief to the speech of the Colonial Secretary, which went, I think, a long way to remove fears and suspicions which had arisen not unnaturally from Lord Derby's circular, because in spite of everything that has been said to-day it is undoubtedly the fact that that circular said nothing of the reasonable qualifications and exceptions which the Prime Minister expressed in his statement. That statement in the Press gave a vast number of people the impression that compulsion was to be imposed in a crude way immediately after the 30th November. We who believe in the volun- tary system are confident that it will give us all the recruits that can be got out of the population of these islands. Therefore it is beside the mark to tell us that there is a great necessity for soldiers. Admitted that there is a great necessity for soldiers, we say that the voluntary system properly applied, intelligently and generously applied, will give practically all the soldiers that are available, and that those that it will not give you are quite a small number and largely consist of men who would be of no use if you did get them. It is perfectly true that no system has all the advantages, all the symmetry and logic on its side. We have an existing system which the country is devoted to, and it will have the result I have indicated, in our belief, if intelligently and generously applied.
I did not rise to continue the discussion on this question which I venture to think has been pretty well thrashed out. I rose to deal with another matter in which the armed forces of this country have a great work to perform, and in which this country as a whole has a great national responsibility arising out of the history of its foreign policy. On the 6th of October of this year there was a discussion in the House of Lords which, it is no exaggeration to say, sent a wave of horror not only over this country, but over all civilised countries. The great majority of reading and thinking people realised then for the first time that the greatest massacres in history had been taking place during the last five months. In that discussion, initiated by Lord Cromer, and in which Lord Bryce, Lord Crewe, and others took a notable part, there were laid bare the facts of a horror such as the world has never seen. There have been great conquerors who have slaughtered many thousands and perhaps up to a million men, but those occurrences have been spread over a great number of years. The Turkish authorities within the little time of five months proceeded systematically to exterminate a whole race out of their dominions. They did so not in thousands or tens of thousands, but in hundreds of thousands. One estimate states that five hundred thousand persons were killed within the five months, while according to another estimate the number was as many as eight hundred thousand killed. There have been massacres of the Armenians before this last one. Ten years ago thirty thousand were massacred, and ten years before that a hundred thousand. But those massacres, which made the world shudder at the time, shrink into insignificance beside these massacres which we have been unconsciously living through in the last six or seven months. Since that Debate took place later details have come in from many sources, from German and Swiss missionaries, from escaped refugees, from Europeans in Asiatic Turkey, and from sources of all kinds, and all supporting one another in the most astonishing way, so that the facts all hang together and so that, while perhaps it is impossible to be certain of this or that detail, there is no doubt whatever of the broad lines of the occurrences. They are not general statements, but are statements from different quarters, describing what happened at particular places at particular times, with the names of the people who suffered and with the names of the people who inflicted those horrors.
Therefore it is quite certain that the broad facts of the case are established and the broad facts are these, that in the month of May or thereabouts orders were sent through the Executive authority—that is, the "gang" as Lord Bryce called them: the gang of ruffians who call themselves the Government of Turkey at the present time—systematically to nearly all the centres in Turkey where there was any considerable Armenian population. I believe I am right in saying that these orders can be traced as having been sent to some fifty places, and a uniform procedure was adopted. The Armenians of the particular centre concerned were collected together at short notice, sometimes within a few hours. In some instances where a time had been fixed the gendarmes arrived before the time, the Armenians were hustled out of their beds. Sometimes a little longer, up to ten or twelve days, but I believe never more than a fortnight, was given. It was not men of military age that were taken to be interned. Not at all. The Armenians of military age were already serving Turkey as soldiers in the ranks, except those who were exempted under the laws of Turkey. At this time the men from fifteen to seventy who had not been taken as soldiers were collected together, and for the most part shot. The older men, the women and the children, were ordered to prepare to go away to a great distance. This did not take place simply in one town, but in practically every town where there was an Armenian population of any importance. It did not occur owing to the fanaticism of one particular magistrate or one particular population. It is what took place in obedience to the orders sent round from the central authorities.
These people were marched away, under the control of gendarmes to some extent, but to a large extent under the control of gaol birds—criminals who had been taken out of the gaols for the express purpose of being put in charge of these parties of Armenians. The people were allowed to take very little money with them, and very little food was given them on the journey. In some cases they were allowed to hire carts, in which either to ride themselves or to take their few belongings. In many cases these carts were turned back after a few hours or a few days of the journey had been accomplished, and the people were obliged to go on on foot. Sometimes, when they had gone a few days' journey, they were abandoned by their guards and told that they might go on by themselves. Then, when they had gone on a few miles, Kurds or other brigands fell upon them, robbed and murdered them, violated the women, took the children, and committed every kind of outrage and horror upon them. Sometimes they were not abandoned, but the gendarmes and criminal guards worked their will upon them in every form of brutality and lust. When they came to towns they sold women and girls to the harems, sold the children to Turkisk families who wanted boys or girls to work on their farms and to be brought up as Mahomedans, and even sold the children to brothels. So they went on, driving them along, the people dropping by the way from hunger, women going absolutely naked in many cases, having been robbed of their clothes; babies were born by the roadside, and the mothers were told to get up and go on, until they died. At nights women were violated by thieves and ruffians who came to the encampment; and finally, when they reached the River Euphrates, the women in many cases threw themselves into the river in order that they might escape by death from man's inhumanity.
9.0 P.M.
Thus perhaps one-third, or less than one-third, of those who set out came to their destinations. What were those destinations? They were humorously called by the Turkish authorities agricultural colonies. They were, as a matter of fact, places in horrible swamps, or in some cases desert places where there was no water and no possibility of cultivation, where even the miserable Arabs, who had existed there from time immemorial, often perished from hunger. There they arrived in a perishing condition, and there those who are not yet dead are probably dying rapidly. This was the fate of the Armenians in the scattered towns. I am not talking of the Armenians in Armenia. There is a very great difference. The Armenians in the scattered towns are, for the most part, artisans, merchants, shopkeepers, or professional men. They are very largely educated people, brought up in a degree of refinement, extraordinarily in advance of the Mahomedan population of the country. They felt all the more the sufferings inflicted upon them, having been accustomed to a refined, educated, and, from a material point of view, comfortable life. The Armenians in Armenia were in a different position. They were in their own country, to a very large extent they were agriculturists, and those who remain are agriculturists still, cultivating their fields and living on the produce.
I must point out to the hon. Member that this subject is in order in the present Debate only in so far as it is connected with something which the hon. Member thinks the British Government could or ought to have done, and that a general description such as he is entering upon is really wide of any possibility on the part of the Government. He began by suggesting that he was going to make a proposal as to what the Government might do. That part of the subject will be relevant to-day.
May I respectfully represent to you, Sir, that these things have been done by one of the belligerents with whom we are at war; that they have been sanctioned, if not incited, by another of the enemy belligerents; that it is possible for the Government to represent these things as one of the reasons why they require this large sum of money in order to carry the War to a successful issue; and, finally, that by arousing public attention, both at home and in neutral countries, we may help the Government to take such steps as may be necessary to bring some relief to these people. For these reasons I would strongly appeal to you, if your sense of order permits you to do so, not to limit more than you possibly can the area of the discussion.
I was not by any means ruling the subject out of order. If Members have that impression I was certainly misunderstood. I was only saying that it must be connected with something which the Government have left undone or could have done.
I am most anxious to follow your ruling. If I have transgressed the rules of order, I am sure you will attribute it to my want of experience and want of skill in these matters. My point is that there are two classes of these people, and that they are in different positions. I was going to argue that for both of these classes there is something which our Government at the present time might do, and, owing to the historical responsibilities arising out of the policy of past years, ought to do. I hope I shall be in order in pursuing my subject on those lines. The Armenians, who have been subject to deportation, hardships, and the gradual wastage of death, as I have described, still, to some extent, exist as refugees in different parts of the Turkish Empire. I have to suggest that our Government should use its very best endeavours, either by the Army, the Navy, or its other resources, to rescue these people wherever it is possible. For instance, a ship of the French Fleet saw a great red cross, and on investigation discovered that there were 4,000 Armenians who had taken refuge in the mountains between Antioch and the sea. There with a few old guns they were fighting a much superior force who were attacking them with a view to extermination. That French ship was able to take off those 4,000 people and land them in Egypt, where the whole, or the great majority of them, will be saved from the fate that threatened them. Without describing in detail similar positions of other bodies of Armenians, I should like to appeal to His Majesty's Government to give us some assurance that they will, to the very best of their power, both by our ships going up and down the coast of Asiatic Turkey, and by our troops, who are now approaching the scenes of these terrible disasters—when they are getting to Bagdad—will do everything in their power to deliver such bodies of these men as are still maintaining themselves heroically against their oppressors.
I desire to call attention to other classes of Armenians who survive at the present time, and that are outside the Turkish Empire. Inside the Turkish Empire there are practically no Armenians left. That is not literally true, of course, but there are very, very few. There were probably 1,200,000 or 1,500,000 at the beginning of this War. If it is true that 500,000 or 800,000 have been killed, then the refugees that have found their way into Russia, Egypt, Bulgaria, and elsewhere probably account for nearly the whole of the remainder of the Armenian population of Turkey. Only a comparatively few thousands are left in Turkey itself. Many of these are fighting for their lives. The refugees are mainly in the Russian Caucasus. Within Armenia proper, the Turkish authorities did not pursue this policy of deportation. They pursued the much simpler policy of straightforward massacre. They sent their troops and gendarmes to attack the people in their villages and farms. Where these people in their mountains or in groups of villages protect themselves they sent their artillery against them and destroyed them wholesale. A large number of them were able to get away under the shelter of the Russian troops. In the ebb and flow of this War Russia has advanced and retreated, and advanced again in Armenia. In the course of these movements a large number of Armenians, escaping these wholesale massacres, have got behind the Russian troops and found their way into the Caucasus. In the Russian Caucasus at the present time there are said to be 180,000 of these refugees. Thirty thousand have died there in exile since last August, and 70,000 have probably returned through the Caucasus again to those parts of Armenia which are now in Russian occupation, or have gone into those parts of Persia where there is some sort of protection by the Russians.
In regard to these people I again urge upon His Majesty's Government to consider whether through our Consuls, if possible through grants of money, and in every way in our power, they will do something to help to save these people from destruction. They are dying by hundreds every week—I might almost say by hundreds every day. We in this country are doing what we can to send relief to them. In the United States money is being collected to relieve them. Their compatriots in the Russian Caucasus are doing exemplary work in the way of relief. They are making very great sacrifices, and working very hard. But the number is overwhelming. In this country we received, we know, about 100,000 Belgian refugees. [An HON. MEMBER: "200,000!"] Well, 200,000, and even for a great rich country like this that was considered to be a very great task to undertake. If you consider the comparatively small number of Armenians living in Russia, perhaps 1,500,000, and consider their limited resources, I think we may say that they have done nobly. This we may say: in relieving the refugees no distinction is made of race or religion. Even the few Mahomedan refugees who have found their way into the Russian Caucasus, escaping from the horrors of war, are being relieved in the same way as the Christian refugees. A race that can do that in the moment of its own agony gives a very handsome guarantee of nobility of character. I wish distinctly to say that I am not appealing to His Majesty's Government in this matter as a matter of race or of religion. It is not only the Armenians who have suffered in this way; not only the Armenians that will need such help as the Government can give them. The Greeks to a large extent in many districts have suffered in much the same way. The Syrian Christians have been harassed in exactly the same manner. They have fled from the terror of the Turkish troops. The other day His Majesty's Consul at Tabriz telegraphed to this country that 25,000 Syrian refugees were close to his town, and that 10,000 more were expected immediately. Unless, he said, relief was received promptly large numbers of them must perish.
It is not only Christians. Apparently this process of exterminating all the progressive elements of the country—what is called Ottomanising the country—extends far beyond the range of the Christians. The Zionist Jews, for some reason, have been suspected of being an enlightening force, and they, too, have been in terror. My last news from over there was that the greatest religious teacher of our time, not Christian, not Jew, but a man who represents a kind of reformed Mahomedanism, or a wider religion embracing Mahomedanism and other religions, Abd-ul-Baha Abbas, a man that many of us had the honour of listening to in London a few years ago, an old man who has spent his life in doing good, has been violently taken from his home on Mount Carmel to Nazareth. What has happened to him is utterly unknown, but it is extremely likely that the worst has befallen him. This is a war against all the more intelligent reforming elements within the Ottoman Empire. Not to prolong the account of these terrible events, I will ask the Noble Lord representing His Majesty's Government on this matter to tell us that everything; that is in the power of the Government—the Army, the Fleet, the Consular service—will be used to help these two classes of people—those who are defending themselves for their lives within Turkish territory, and those who have sought refuge in Russia and elsewhere I say again, we must not forget that we are in the presence of the greatest massacre probably that the world has ever known. Therefore, it behoves us, I think, to make every sacrifice and put forward every effort to relieve, if possible, suffering, and to save some thousands from death that must still occur unless all our help is forthcoming.
( indistinctly heard ): I am going to make some demands, on the Government, to all of which I am afraid they cannot accede. I am going to ask them for money. I am going to ask them for military and naval assistance, and I am going to ask them also for diplomatic assistance. I may say that I think, after the story of the Armenian massacres so eloquently told by my hon. Friend who preceded me, everybody will agree that the large sum of money which the Government demands is necessary and well spent in this War. I will not go over the story told by my hon. Friend. No one could have told it better. One might add a tale or two, such as the ghastly episode of women, in their despair, throwing their children into the river, or into the wells by the road side to be devoured by beasts, to die of hunger, or to die of exposure. The story is so ghastly that really one staggers at it, and wonders that in this twentieth century possibilities of such cruelty still exist among any people or against any people. I am especially going to appeal to the Noble Lord for some of this money which we are about to vote, for such deeds of mercy and of assistance as were done by those magnificent French vessels which rescued so many of these poor people. But the main point on which I make this appeal is that the Noble Lord and the great Department which he represents should endeavour to bring this agony, if possible, to an end, and should, so far as possible, alleviate the sufferings.
I do not appeal to the Noble Lord to make any representation to the Turkish Government. We are at war with the Turkish Government, which seems to me one of the greatest vindications and justifications of this War, and I hope that the end of the War will, among other things, be the end of this ruthless tyranny. I do not think I could honestly ask the Noble Lord to make any appeal to Germany. There is one thing very German in this whole transaction. There is one great analogy between the Germans in Belgium and the Turks in Armenia, and that is the system and policy which underlie what might be regarded by superficial observers as mere sporadic or individual blood lust. As the Noble Lord knows far better than I do, for he has had access to documents that I have not seen, this movement was simultaneous in fifty centres, and, therefore, evidently was obeying a central impetus, a central command from the heart of the Turkish Empire. I do not, as I say, ask the Noble Lord to make any representations to Germany. I do not suppose he can make any representation to a belligerent enemy during the War. As every man in this House knows, and every man in Germany knows, and, what is very important, every man in America knows, these massacres could not have taken place without the connivance, or the sanction, or, at least, the reticence of the German Government.
We know what the German Government thinks about this. Four months after these horrors began of wholesale slaughter in cold blood of thousands of men, the slow and more painful slaughter of thousands of women and girls and children, the Chancellor of the German Empire was able to announce in the German Parliament that Germany had brought about the regeneration of Turkey. Everybody knows that throughout all this district for at least a generation, or perhaps two generations, there was not a great centre of population, there was not one of the Armenian settlements which was not the subject of active, energetic, persistent propaganda by the German Consuls. Every one of these centres of slaughter was occupied by a German Consul, knowing the country, probably knowing the language, certainly knowing the Turkish authorities, certainly on good terms with them. If one of these Consuls had only lifted his finger he could have put an end to the slaughter. Nor do I ask the Noble Lord to make any appeal to German opinion. If I were freer in the somewhat necessary limits of this Debate, I could quote from the German Press what they have said about it. Perhaps the Noble Lord will allow me some indulgence in order to read just one extract from a writer in regard to whom, if ever there is a hideous atrocity, you can rely upon his pen not to excuse or extenuate it, but to glorify it, and the name of that gentleman is Reventlow. He wrote:—
We have in this great struggle one mighty nation which stands in whole relief, and which by the character of its citizens and their intense spirit of humanity can deal with this question and save some of the living, and that country is the United States of America. I can encourage the Noble Lord to make representations to the Government of that great nation by the fact that these massacres elicited in America an outburst of horror and sympathy with the Armenians as great as was ever extended to any suffering or oppressed people in the history of the world. I have been in correspondence with some of the members of the Armenian Committee that has been formed, and they say incidentally that in Switzerland—another neutral country—there is a strong feeling that the Noble Lord can appeal for sympathy and support in trying to bring these horrors to an end. I have met many distinguished and cultured gentlemen from Switzerland, and some of whom have actually gone to Armenia to establish industries and orphanages for the remnants of that race. We have had many thrilling and moving stories of these horrors and atrocities from those who have seen these massacres. Some of the information at our disposal in regard to these massacres in Armenia have come from German sisters. I can give the Noble Lord another ground for a strong appeal in this connection. We have tried to do something in Armenia.
Many good Englishmen, mainly connected with the Society of Friends, have conferred enormous benefits in times of crisis on the people of Armenia, but the nation that has done most for Armenia is America. Anybody who travels through the Near East, Egypt, and Armenia will know that the most beneficent agencies there are the American missions. They mainly, indeed I think entirely, belong to members of Protestant communions, entirely unsectarian in spirit. I am not going to quarrel with the religious belief of any man who devotes himself to the service of suffering. Therefore, to me it makes exactly the same appeal as if it were a mission of the Roman Catholic Church. I think they had at least fifty places of instruction in knowledge, in Christianity, and in moral conduct among these Armenian people, and they produced marvellous results. I hope I am not wearying the House if I just read one little extract. I may say that I take this from a penny pamphlet entitled "Armenian Atrocities: the Murder of a Nation." I think every Member of the House has got a copy. I implore them to read this book, and to spread this book, because it is one of the most thrilling and most eloquent appeals that has ever been written. I want, for the purpose of strengthening the hands of the Noble Lord, in making this appeal to America to bring into juxtaposition, so far as official rules permit, the work of the American mission, and the work of the Turkish ruler by one little example. I am quoting from the president of an American college in Armenia, and this president, speaking about the massacres gives a list of the students and of the professors of this college. The Noble Lord has the pamphlet before him, and it is on page 100. Will the House listen to this:— and we here to-night can confidently appeal for sympathy and support to the generous and humane people of the United States in bringing relief to this poor and oppressed people.
The House has listened with wrapt attention to two speeches of a very high order in describing the terrible events which have recently taken place in Armenia, and, speaking from this bench, there really is very little indeed for me to add to what my hon. Friends, one on each side of the House, have already said. The story is a terrible one. The House will recollect that before this War broke out, in February of last year, the Powers had induced the Turks to accept a measure of reform which might, I think, have produced some real amelioration and some real security for these unhappy people. I will not go into the details of it, but there were to be two Inspectors-General, who were to have certain powers, which I think would have been of value; but the moment War broke out, and even before Turkey had joined our enemy, she abandoned all pretence of accepting this reform, and as soon as she thought, or, rather, as soon as the Committee of Union and Progress thought—it is unfair to say Turkey—it could safely be done, they initiated the terrible scheme of which we see the results at the present day. I think it may be said, without the least fear of exaggeration, that no more horrible crime has been committed in the history of the world. My hon. Friend behind me recited some of the incidents. I am not going to harrow the feelings of the House—there is really no object in doing so—by adding to the details of what has unfortunately occurred. It is enough to say that no element of horror, outrage, torture, or slaughter was absent from this crime. It was not only the slaughter and destruction of this people, but it was the slaughter of them under the cruellest possible circumstances to be imagined.
There is as far as I know only one mitigation of the horror, and it is that this was in no sense a religious movement. It was not out of any fanatical outburst of Moslem feeling. It was nothing of the kind. We had every reason to believe—and I do believe—that pious Moslems in all parts of the world view with as great reprobation as even we do the horrors which have taken place in Armenia. It had nothing to do with any religious persecution or religious hatred. Feeling against Christianity did not enter into it at all. But that very circumstance, which from one point of view is something we may congratulate ourselves upon, is, in another point of view, an aggravation of what has occurred. This is a premeditative crime determined on long ago. It is part of the deliberate policy of those who Lord Bryce so rightly called "a gang of murderous ruffians that rule Constantinople at the present time." One of them has undoubtedly, on more than one occasion—I was told only this minute—boasted to a mutual friend in Constantinople that he and his friends in six months have done more than Addul Hamid did in thirty years. It was a long-considered, deliberate policy to destroy and wipe out of existence the Armenians in Turkey. It was systematically carried out. It was ordered from above, and when, as happened on one or two occasions, the local governors were anxious to spare some of the children, or mitigate in some degree the horrors of the operation, they were sternly ordered to go on with the work, and I believe in one or, perhaps, two cases they were removed from their offices for not carrying it out with sufficient vigour.
There is one other circumstance I am bound to remind the House of. Not only was this premeditated. There was no provocation whatever. It has been suggested by that apologist for all that is wicked—Count Reventlow—that this was merely a rough suppression of insurrection and riot. There is no truth whatever in it. There was no insurrection, no riot; nothing of the kind. It has been suggested in America that agents of this country intrigued with Armenians to stir them up to rebellion against their lawful Sovereign, and that this country is responsible for the horrors that resulted. I am quite sure the House will believe me when I assure it that no kind of truth exists for any such allegation. There have been no intrigues by this country with the Armenians to stir them up to rebellion. There have been no attempts to raise them against their masters, though the House will easily see that if any such attempt had occurred it would be far from an excuse for or even palliation of the crimes committed. But even this miserably poor excuse is absolutely without foundation. The crime was a deliberate one, not to punish insurrection but to destroy the Armenian race. That was the sole object, the sole reason for it. Mr. Deputy-Speaker was good enough to point out that though this discussion of the terrible crimes that have been committed was in order, yet it was necessary to deal with the practical proposal that was to be made in order to mitigate or save the remnants of the Armenian people. My hon. Friends made one or two proposals. My hon. Friend (Mr. A. Williams) suggested that we might instruct the Fleet, if they saw any opportunity, to save any outlying bands of fugitives. I do not know that the British sailor would need any instruction of that kind.
Let them look for opportunities.
I am quite certain, if they see an opportunity, they will be only too ready to take it. It was very rightly said that the French Fleet bad had an opportunity, and had saved some 4,000 Armenians. I am quite sure, if any such opportunity falls in the way of a British commander, he will be only too glad and too ready to imitate his French colleagues. The hon. Gentleman also asked me to say, on behalf of the Government, that we would use every resource of the Army and Navy and the Consular services to assist and save the Armenians. I am sure my hon. Friend will not misunderstand me if I do not give a pledge of that kind quite in those terms. After all, the greatest possible protection for the Armenians is our victory in this War. To that all our main efforts must be bent. Our Army and our Navy, and all our resources must be be devoted to destroying the enemy, wherever we can find him, until he accepts terms of peace which will be acceptable to the Allies. But it being well understood that we must have that object before our eyes first of all, I am quite sure if any opportunity should occur to assist the Armenians by the efforts of our Consuls or of our forces in any way practicable, I am certain the Government would feel that that is a very noble use to which the resources of this country could be put.
There is one thing I will tell the House—it is a small matter—what we have already done. It bears on one suggestion. It is that we had telegraphed to the Commander of our forces (General Nixon) in Mesopotamia, and asked him to communicate with the Arab tribes and induce them, as far as possible, to assist these unhappy fugitives wherever they can. That has already been done, and I hope it may have some result. My hon. Friend (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) made another suggestion, and that was that we should make representations to neutral Governments, and he particularly mentioned the Governments of the United States and the Swiss Republic.
I made an omission that I should like to repair, and that is that you should back up some representations which I made to the Pope, who has already intervened in the matter.
I am glad of that interruption. It enables me to say—indeed, I should have said it in any case—that humanity is grateful to His Holiness the Pope for the steps he has already taken to try and secure the safety of the Armenians. He made the strongest possible representations, as my hon. Friend knows, and if they are without result it is because it is difficult to get blood out of a stone. But as to the suggestion that he should make representations to the Governments of the United States and of the Swiss Republic, I need not say that if either of those Governments should think it right to make representations to Germany no one would be more rejoiced at or would welcome more heartily any steps of that kind than would the Government of this country. After all, it is not for us to dictate or even to suggest to the Governments of independent neutral countries what their duty is in such a case as this. It is for each Government to settle exactly what it ought to do with reference to foreign Governments, except so far as representations may be made on behalf of the subject of any other Government. Although I am quite ready to join with my hon. Friend in expressing the aspiration that these Governments may see their way to do something, if anything can be done, for the Armenians, I do not think it would be right that this Government should go further than that.
My hon. Friend said and said truly that it was not for us to make any representations to the Germans. It would be quite useless, and we certainly should not do so. But after all, they and they only are the people who can stop these massacres and can save the Armenians if they choose. I read in that very interesting and able pamphlet a statement that no sufficient proof of direct complicity can be brought against German officials, but indirectly the complicity of Germany is proved beyond doubt. Not only are they defended by Count Reventlow, but as I read is one of the German papers, beyond a communication from a German living in Switzerland, with that exception no protest of any sort or kind has appeared in any German paper. Not only so, it may sound a hard thing but it is true that the creed of German militarism leads logically to crimes of this description. Do not let us forget for a moment what a horrible thing, although it may be stated quite attractively, in reality German militarism is. It means that anything which is thought to be in the interests of the State is justified. The State is put in the place which is occupied in other nations by religion and morality. Once you grant that, once you grant that the so-called bastard patriotism is an excuse for any crime, there is no limit to the degradation of a nation that adopts such a belief as that. We in this country, I hope, will never accept such a doctrine. We agree, at least I do with all my heart, with the words that Edith Cavell uttered just before her death:—
10.0 P.M.
I hope the House will not think me at all disrespectful if after an absence for a considerable time I find it a little difficult to accommodate myself to what seems to be the rather unreal atmosphere in which we have spent this evening. I do not wish to say anything as to the want of reality of the three interesting speeches to which we have just listened, but in listening to them one could not help reflecting that unless, as the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs truly said, we can win this War, it is not very much use at the present moment discussing the Armenian question, because for the moment we have lost all real control in dealing with it. Other subjects have been dealt with this evening. It is said the whole object of every man's ambition is to win the War. The only thing we think about at the front is how we are going to win this War, and it is rather difficult to come back and find this House jogging along with little differences of opinion, and Members not being prepared to combine and sink all those opinions to the one great object the men have before them. I was very much relieved to hear what the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) said as regards the speech he made on a previous occasion in this House. I should like to tell the House an incident that happened in that connection, which will show the intense feeling that references of that sort made in this House can arouse abroad and the damage they may cause. When that speech was made—the speech saying that railway men would stop work if any idea of compulsion was considered—a very intelligent Frenchman in a French town where I was brought me a report of that speech, and, with the greatest indignation, said, "Surely that is not the sort of thing which your Government will possibly tolerate. Surely that is not the sort of thing to be expected from the English nation." I told him that it was a difficult position for the Government, if that was what was really said. I asked, "What would your Government do if they were in the same position?" He said, with the greatest contempt in his voice, "We should not have to face such a thing. We have no such men." I said I was sure the report must be erroneous, and that the feelings of the working men were not those we should expect from that report. I hope I calmed him. I hope that that sort of remark will not be made again in this House, but that everyone will realise how far these things go, and however loyally they may be uttered in this House, how much harm they may do in other quarters. The whole of this Debate seems to have been rather unreal. What is at the bottom of if? Apparently the whole House agrees that we must have the men. Apparently the whole House, with absolutely trivial exceptions, agrees that we must fight the War to the finish. Apparently the whole House also agrees that it is highly desirable that single men should be called out before the married men. The whole thing turns on a discussion as to the exact meaning of a speech made by the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister often makes speeches which are not very easy to interpret. When the Prime Minister said that other than voluntary means would have to be used it is not far to go to see that he was alluding to means which must be compulsory. We have heard it said that the voluntary system is a success. Anybody who has been dealing with Lord Derby's scheme, as I have been during the last week, will realise, as obviously the whole House must realise, that the voluntary system has not been a complete success, otherwise Lord Derby's scheme would not have been necessary. I will go further. It is common knowledge to the whole House that if it had not been for the suggestion that has been made that single men would be brought up by means other than voluntary, the rush of recruits which has taken place during the last few days would not have occurred. We know of our own knowledge of men who have said, "We are going to wait to be fetched." They waited until they thought they were going to be fetched. I know that in one noble house there were two fine footmen whom the lady of the house assured me were medically unfit and could not possibly go. Now it is discovered that they have passed. There are hundreds of such cases. Therefore we cannot say that the voluntary system was a success if it had to be suggested that men might have to be taken. Everybody must realise that the moment may come when that will have to be done. I want to know why has this objection been taken if the whole House is agreed?
Objections to any suggestion of that sort must do harm to recruiting. I want to know what are the motives of those who resist it. Are they really as anxious to get recruits as they should be, and are they really keen in their profession that they intend to fight this War to an absolute finish? They very fairly raise the suspicion against themselves that their hearts are not in this matter, and that their real opposition is to getting recruits at all, and not only to the form in which those recruits are got. I do not believe for one single instant that the labour world would raise any objection if they realised the needs of the War, and that it was absolutely necessary that these objects should be gained even if some system of compulsion has to be adopted. We must give Lord Derby's scheme a fair chance, and I myself have got leave from the front to come home and see what I could do in my district to help recruiting. I have never given a vote for Conscription, and I object altogether to the word "Conscription" being used. It involves any amount of prejudice, and I believe that is the intention and idea of many who use it, and if only we could get away from that word and merely deal with the facts, and realise that the point before us is that we must get men and that in this emergency in the national history we must fight this war to a finish, and that the only way to do it is to get men, this sort of question would not be raised. We are told that the great objection to any sort of compulsion of single men is the financial difficulty. I should like to know whether it was the financial difficulty which inspired those who in the North of England during the past few days have been distributing leaflets among farm hands. This has been done on the authority of the No-Conscription League. I hope the Government have got that league under their eye, because, although I have not yet been able to get copies of these leaflets, I had information this morning from a man who had seen them distributed, and described the contents of them, which leads me to think that the Government ought to keep their eye on it, and see what this organisation is doing.
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will let me have some of the literature I shall be in a position to take proceedings.
I shall be very glad indeed to get the literature. In fact, I have made inquiries and taken steps already to get it, and as soon as I can get the leaflets I will send them to the right hon. Gentleman. What gentlemen who may be interested in this organisation apparently forget is, that in attacking Conscription and calling themselves the No-Conscription League and issuing leaflets of this kind, in the eyes of a great many men of the class they are distributing them to they are attacking all recruiting. These leaflets will be interpreted by these men very largely as an encouragement to them not to recruit. They will not know the distinct difference between Conscription and recruiting. They will look on it as part of the same thing and it will be a direct inducement to them not to recruit, and I very much question whether the motives of a great many people behind the league are not that they object—many of them have already objected—to what they call militarism, and this is part of the old Adam coming out under which we have suffered so long and which is partly due to our having at the beginning of the War had an insufficient Army, an insufficient staff, and all preparations stunted and dwarfed by the constant opposition of certain sections in the Government and in this House.
There is one small point, quite irrespective of the general question, that I should like to raise, and that is the question of promotion from the second line Territorials. I think it is common knowledge to a great many Members that there is a risk of very grave injustice being done. In the case of all units which have gone to the front and in which casualties have not been serious, more particularly such cases as the Army Service Corps, Cavalry, Yeomanry, and so on, there are a great many cases where subalterns who went out and have not been promoted now find themselves considerably below other gentlemen of less years' service who have joined since the subalterns themselves. We can all give instances of that. I have in my own squadron two subalterns over whom other gentlemen have been promoted to higher rank than themselves. One is of the rank of major and the other is a captain. Both joined the Territorial Force after these two subalterns of mine, and because they have not been able or have not seen fit to serve abroad—they are both personal friends of mine; it is the system I complain of—presumably at the end of the War my two subalterns who joined at once and came out and have been serving abroad ever since will remain in the rank of subaltern with the major and the captain and others of similar rank, though junior in service, above them. I suggest to the Government that there should be some arrangement made by which either those ranks may be abrogated and the commissions treated as purely temporary in the case of all who do not see fit to serve abroad, or that some distinction of that sort should be made between those who actually face the danger of serving abroad and those who stay at home. I should like to ask also in that connection what is the real value of the second line Territorial Force, and whether the Government are getting proper value for the money which is being spent on it. It seems to me that there is an enormous waste in men, and that a great many second line regiments are doing very little good and proving of very little value to the country, and this is a particular hardship to the rank and file of some of these regiments. I can mention cases in which men of a very high class, very valuable recruits indeed, are living an absolutely stagnant life in the second line, unable to be used, dying to serve and do something for their country, but kept in their regiment because they cannot get out of it, and feeling all this time, keen, good soldiers as they are, that it is impossible for them to take any part in the struggle in which they would so ardently like to have a greater part I hope something may be done before the end of the War either to send part of these units out as drafts to those who are serving and not to waste valuable material but to get better value for the money which is being spent on them.
I wish to reinforce, if I can, what has fallen from my hon. and gallant Friend with reference to these second line units, and particularly I want to refer to the Yeomanry. On 22nd September this question was raised in the House by the hon. Member (Mr. Carr-Gomm). He then said to the Under-Secretary:—
"With regard to the position of the second line Territorials, I should like to ask the Government whether they do not consider that the time has now come when they should make up their minds as to what are the functions of these bodies."
The right hon. Gentleman replied, and said,
"The truth is, of course, that while the original second line units were meant to supply drafts and to make good the wastage of war, that is not so now. They are not now a machine for so doing, but the third line units have been created for that very essential purpose, and the second line units will be utilised in all probability as fighting formations to go abroad when the time comes."
The other day I raised this question again, and I asked the right hon. Gentleman,
"whether it is the intention of the War Office to raise reserve units for the second line Yeomanry regiments so as to supply drafts for those regiments when sent on foreign service?"
I also asked him,
"wheher it is the policy and the intention of the War Office to utilise the second line Yeomanry regiments as fighting formations to go abroad in due course?"
I had this reply:—
"There is no immediate intention of sending the second line Yeomanry abroad, and the recruiting conditions to which the hon. Member referred in his question were framed with this in view, so as to divert as many as possible to the third fine Infantry depots, whose needs are at the moment more urgent than those of the Yeomanry."
It is evident from what I have just recited that the position in regard to these second line units has gone back rather than forward in the last few months. I have had my attention called to what is the present position, and I will give two typical examples. Case one—I shall not mention the particular Yeomanry unit—was up to full strength in September, and every man had taken the universal service obligation. They were all anxious to serve abroad or wherever they were sent.
Is this a second line unit?
Yes. Both cases I am giving are second line units. In the first case they now need seventy men to complete their establishment, but the officer commanding the administrative centre of the regiment says that under present circumstances it will take three months to complete that establishment. They are not allowed to recruit direct. The men are needed now to amalgamate properly in the regiment, so that it may be fit in the spring, if required, to go abroad as a really efficient fighting unit. The second case is even stronger. This regiment, a second line unit, is formed of the best material, and is also entirely a foreign service unit. The insuperable difficulty in this case is the shortage of men. The third line only is permitted to recruit to a fixed number of men, and only allowed to send men to the second line when it has men in excess of the number which it is permitted to recruit. The House will, therefore, appreciate how likely it is in these conditions that this second line regiment will ever be able to fill up its complement to full strength.
Recruiting for the Yeomanry is limited to men from 5 ft. 3 ins. to 5 ft. 6 ins. in height, and to those who refuse to join any other unit. The present shortage of this particular unit I am referring to is owing to drafts for the first line when the first line went abroad and to commissions from the ranks, fifty-three; to munition workers since withdrawn, twenty-two; various causes, twenty, making a total deficiency of ninety-five out of an establishment somewhere about 500. I think it is either 496 or 506. I do not know the exact figure, but it is 20 per cent. of its strength. I am informed that if the regiment were full now, as in the other case, it would be fit to go abroad, fit in every sense to be used in the spring, provided the men were available now, so as to work in with those who have already had a long training, and so that the whole can be a complete and uniform unit.
These second line units seem to be between the devil and the deep sea. They are neither one thing nor the other. The Under-Secretary for War told us originally that they were intended to be independent units for service abroad when required.
When required.
He now tells us there is no present intention to send them abroad. In the first place, there was a hope held out that they were still foreign service units, and there was some possibiltiy or probabiltiy of their being required. We are now told there is no present intention of using them. That state of affairs is not encouraging to the officers commanding, the junior officers, or the men in the ranks. When we remember that a very urgent appeal was made only a few months ago to these same men to volunteer for foreign service, and when they have responded to that appeal, and have shown, with very few exceptions, they are one and all willing to do their duty wherever that duty lies, I think it is very small encouragement that is given to them. The first line of these regiments has almost in every case gone abroad as Infantry, leaving their horses behind. The third line is still being given Cavalry training, which is very much more expensive than the training for Infantry. Therefore we have this position. We have three units in the same regiment—the first, second, and third line. The first has gone abroad as Infantry. The third is being trained in this country as Cavalry, and the third has to supply the drafts for what is, to all intents and purposes, an Infantry formation, while the second line is left between the two without any present intention of using them for foreign service at all, also receiving its Cavalry training and keeping below strength, so that it cannot possibly be an efficient fighting unit either for Home defence or for foreign service. The right hon. Gentleman knows better than I how many of these second line Yeomanry regiments there are. I take a supposititious figure—say thirty. Suppose that under the voluntary system it is quite impossible to get the few recruits that are required to make them up to strength. Also for argument sake let us amalgamate some of these regiments so as to have a more limited number, say, twenty-five that are up to strength. Let the War Office decide definitely on some policy with regard to them. Let the commanding officers know what they have got to train the men for. Let the men know what lies before them, so that they may have an object in life, and not be held in a state of suspended animation. I object altogether to this paper Army system, which seems to rely on having a certain number of units, and then making regulations with regard to recruiting under which it is perfectly impossible for these units to become efficient.
There is another point of a more general nature. The Prime Minister spoke- the other day, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin) referred to it, I think, on Thursday last. He mentioned that this vast expenditure in connection with the War required the voting of very large sums by this House, because, not only had we a vastly greater number of soldiers than we ever had in the Army before, but each individual soldier was costing, on the average, from £250 to £300 a year, whereas before the outbreak of hostilities the average was about £100. Therefore, we not only multiply our expenditure by the gigantic factor that is involved in raising our Forces from a few hundred thousand to a considerable number of millions, but we have to multiply the cost of each individual soldier by three. I do not wish to press the right hon. Gentleman, because I know that the Prime Minister said that he did not wish to go into minute details of the composition of that figure, but I do think that when this question of voluntary as against compulsory service is being debated for the greater part of the day it would be of interest to the country to know how much of that £250 or £300, which is the cost of each individual soldier, has been caused by the gigantic expenses of organisation and advertisement of recruiting all over the country, for which we have to thank the voluntary system alone. There has been a reflection made on the speech of the hon. Member for Fareham (Colonel Lee) about cheaper soldiers, and so on. I would ask hon. Members to remember that under this voluntary system we are dealing with figures of the finances of the country which, it has now become clear to everyone, are one of the vital factors of the War. We are not dealing only, in considering these two systems, with the question of the extent to which the individual soldier benefits. We have got to consider the enormous cost that must be included in that figure of £300 spent in a single year for simply getting a soldier to enlist, and if the right hon. Gentleman can say anything with regard to that I think it very important.
There is one other point only which I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider in relation to all the criticisms that have been made on the Department for which he is responsible to this House. It is not only the question of the money that is spent, and uselessly spent in many cases, by the great Department of State that controls our military establishment, but he must remember that all classes of the people of this country, wage earners and people who are in a better financial position, have before them constantly the example of what can only be termed in many respects absolutely reckless waste with regard to the financial resources of the country. I will only give two instances. First, the question of material for War Office purposes. People see in agricultural districts how a thing like hay is treated. Hay is regarded by the agricultural labourer as a thing almost sacred, and he is expected to preserve it from taint and the weather for feeding stock and so forth in the winter. Every labourer knows that if he allows that precious article to be wasted on the farm he will be dismissed from service, and will not have a chance of earning wages. Yet he sees the agents of the War Office come and cut up whole stacks, and then leave the trussed hay for months together exposed to the weather. He sees Artillery and Cavalry harness left to rot on the ground, yet the magistrates, have frequently to consider cases where, perhaps, a single strap has been taken from a heap by some person who thinks it will be useful to him and naturally picks it up, and he is heavily fined for appropriating something from a heap to which it is obvious the War Office for months have attached no value whatever. The other case is this: Only ten days ago a local paper in my Constituency contained an advertisement for boys of fifteen years of age to help in the Remount Department, and they were offered 18s. and 20s. a week. That may not seem very extravagant to some Members, but it is about double the ordinary value of boys' services in any agricultural district. And if you go right up to those who are engaged in repairing road torn up by Government motor traffic, you find the War Office paying 50s. a week to men—about double what county councils and other authorities are able to pay for such services. That is the bottom of the scale. In the great industrial centres men are earning anything up to £8, £10, and £15 a week. What is the impression made upon the people of the country, and how can you talk to them about economy when they see the War Office with money to burn, and spending the capital of the country without Treasury control? Their natural feeling is that if all this money is being spent, what is the use of going round and preaching economy? I dismiss as unworthy the constant attack made upon Ministers in asking them to reduce their salaries and putting pettifogging questions of that kind. When there is this example of how the country's money is being spent for a national purpose in the prosecution of this War, when anybody can get vastly more than their produce is worth, and people get treble what their services are worth in the form of wages, it is perfectly idle for the right hon. Gentleman, or any of his colleagues, to talk to the country about economy in personal expenditure.
I should like to say a very few words in support of what was said by the hon. Member for the Barkston Ash Division (Major Lane-Fox) as to the great injustice and great unwisdom of allowing to be kept from promotion men who have gone out to the front, while in this country, in proportion, there is rapid promotion of officers in the Territorials who have not gone out. I have known several young men whose incomes depend on their own exertions, who have gone out in a most patriotic spirit, although they did not know that the War would last so long as seems likely, to give their services for their country, and who have lost a good deal of their incomes, and whose prospects when they come back are poor for themselves and their wives and children. I know several of those men who have been out—in some instances during the whole course of the War. They have come back perhaps wounded, and find themselves junior to the very men in their own battalions who did not find it convenient, for some reason or another, I will not put it higher or lower than that, to go out and fight for their country when the country's call came, and who now find themselves majors or some of them colonels, with little or no experience, and over those men who are really seasoned warriors and who have borne the brunt of the day and all the hardships of the fight. There are many who have not come back at all, and those who have find themselves juniors to those who were their subordinates when they went out. I know that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tennant), who represents the War Office here, is an encyclopedia of knowledge on these matters, and I am sure that if there is an encyclopædia in a human frame it is the right hon. Gentleman. I feel almost sorry for anyone who has to make the slightest complaint to him. I do not like making complaints, but I have come across many of these cases of young officers of the Territorials, and we all know that the Territorials have borne a large part of the brunt of the War up to the present.
It seems to me a disgrace that they should find themselves, on coming back, inferior in rank to men who would not themselves claim to have the moral right to be superior to them. I say that such a system puts a premium on stopping at home and a handicap on those going to the front. I know there is a practical difficulty. I asked the men what they proposed, and I make it a rule to do so when anyone makes a complaint on a matter I do not thoroughly understand. When it was suggested to some of these men that they might come back, they said they did not want to do so, and that they wanted to go to the front. That is a spirit we ought to encourage. It is a spirit I admire, and I feel as an Englishman greatly indebted to them. I was delighted to hear the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch (Mr. Croft), with whom I do not sympathise always on some other questions, and to have confirmed from what he said what other officers have said as to the splendid spirit of humanity and brotherhood they have at the Front. I really think there are a lot of good things coming out of this War as well as much pain and suffering. If those men to whom I have referred went into the second line they would find themselves ordered about by men who did not know their business and who, without seeing active service at all, have in six months been in some cases promoted to high rank. I asked the reason for that, and was told that places in home battalions have to be made up, and some: how or other these men get promotion because they have entered the service and there is nobody else to take the position.
I am told also that antiquated old gentlemen, who have not learnt the lessons of present-day warfare, not having been on a battlefield for many years, are in command of these battalions as colonels; I think they are not the kind of men to be teaching the new recruits the latest science of warfare. If, as a civilian, I made any suggestion at all, it would be that there should be a little more interchange. Some of these men who are so keen to go back to the Front should be promoted to higher rank in the home battalions, and allowed to teach the recruits the latest tactics which they have learnt in actual warfare, while these younger men should go to the front, learn their lessons there, and get promotion, where, more than anywhere else, promotion ought to be got—that is, on the actual field of warfare. We all want to see money saved. I believe it is not the fact, as the right hon. Member for Swansea said, that money will not play a large part in this War. I believe that it will play a larger part than in any previous war, and that we shall see the truth of the statement of the hon. Member for Derby, who spoke like a statesman this afternoon. Money will play a larger part in this War than in any previous war, because the instruments of warfare are so much more costly than ever before. Motor cars, machine-guns, cannon—the tremendous machinery of war is very expensive. Further, we have for Allies, Powers that have more men than money, and we have to find money for them. There is money even in this little matter of young, inexperienced men being promoted to senior rank at home, simply because there is nobody else available. If the present system is to be continued, I certainly suggest that the rank of these men should be only temporary, and that the men who come back from the War should have the higher rank later on, if they do not have it now. In the meantime I believe there is money being wasted; I am certain there is good material being wasted in some of the men who come back wounded. They are keen to give their best services, and they would be only too delighted to take a greater part than they are very often allowed to do in their own battalion, or at all events in some battalion at home. Their services would certainly be more efficient than the services of some of these younger, raw, inexperienced men. I am given to understand that some of the second line battalions are over-officered, that there are sometimes forty officers where there should be probably only thirty and where fifteen could do the work. I do not want to recommend that anybody's pay should be cut down, but I object to promotion simply because other men are not available, and I object more strongly still to men being kept back and made to rank below men with less knowledge and experience than themselves.
I desire to raise one or two questions relating to the War Office. I should like the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary to understand that I do not wish to offer criticism of what has been done. I must repeat what I said the other day, that we must remember that the War Office was designed to deal with a situation and an Army on a scale wholly different from that which it has had to undertake since the outbreak of the War. My first point is that which arises from a question I put to-day, and another similar question that I asked two or three days ago. It relates to the administrative work done by the doctors in the hospitals and elsewhere. The right hon. Gentleman informs me that there are no doctors doing purely administrative work, and that they all have, of necessity, to be doctors on account of the technical knowledge required.
No doctors are doing nothing but administration?
Yes; I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would deny that a great many of these doctors are doing work which embraces so little of a technical nature that it could be done quite well by a layman who had a certain experience in administrative work or such other technical work as might be required. Let me quote a case sent to me, and which, I think, appeared in the form of a letter to the "Times" three or four days ago. This statement says that in the sixteen motor ambulance convoys which are now in attendance on the British Army, each comprising fifty motors, each of these has in control of it three officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps. It is suggested that these doctors have no real use to make of their medical skill; that their actual work is looking after the control and management of these motors, keeping them in good condition, and looking after the drivers; that they are doing the work which is for the most part—though I do not deny their medical knowledge might occasionally be of advantage—work that could be done well or better by any layman who had a knowledge of mechanics, motors, and the management of men.
The whole forty-eight?
That is the suggestion that is put forward. I think also in this country there are a great number of doctors who are doing much administration work in hospitals. A great deal of it might be taken from them and done by laymen, with this object and this object alone, of saving the doctors—
Hear, hear!
I quite admit that in times of peace there is no objection whatever to this work being done by the doctors of the Royal Army Medical Corps; but I understand that there will shortly be a great call for doctors, that a large number will shortly be required. If so, I suggest that in so far as you can set a layman to do work at present done by doctors, it would be an advantage to do so, and so set the doctor free to employ his science and medical skill which, at present, is, as I have described, to some extent wasted. There are, of course, considerable numbers of men who have had great experience in running our civil hospitals here. All the big civil hospitals in London contain on their staff men who have had great experience in the hospitals, and many of whom are of military age. Now these men are put in a position in which they must offer themselves for the services of their country. I know several of them who are now offering themselves, and I have not the slightest doubt that, unless something is done in the matter, these men will be made use of simply as soldiers, whereas, surely, if they have special knowledge and skill they should be made use of to supplement the somewhat short supply of doctors which we are led to understand exists, instead of being made use of in a way which will not be comparatively so useful to the country.
There is only one other point to which I will briefly refer. A few days ago I called attention to what appeared to me to be the very great extravagance which is going on in regard to motor transport reserve units. These motor transport men were enlisted, many of them, in the early days of the War, and there has been no work for them. They have been waiting with their lorries in units in various towns in this country, but what I cannot understand is why the rates of remuneration to these men is so extravagant. Many of these men have been motor drivers in time of peace, and probably earned from 30s. to 45s. a week, on which they had to feed themselves and maintain their families; but now, for some reason which I cannot understand, they are given two guineas a week, their families receive separation allowance and are practically kept for them. They themselves are provided with food and lodging and clothes, and what they are supposed to do with their 42s. a week I cannot imagine. I find that there are other classes of men of the same kind, blacksmiths, for instance, who are being enlisted on precisely the same terms, and who, of course, must be costing the country anything from £3 10s. to £5 a week per man. I do not know how far it is possible to rectify a system begun on that scale. Why it was ever started, I do not understand, but I would suggest that if it is possible in future some more moderate rate of pay should be granted, and I think it would be accepted as perfectly fair by men of this class.
I desire to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to two matters. The first is the very erratic method of starring the register. I would ask him whether he will see that perfectly proper directions and guidance are given to the local appeal committee, so that errors committed in starring may be corrected and equal justice done in all cases, having regard to the circumstances in each individual case. I do not know who is responsible for the starring of the register, but great dissatisfaction is felt.
It is a Local Govern-Board question. I am afraid it is no use addressing it to me.
I will address the question to the Local Government Board, but I am bound to say that it has interfered very much with the success of the voluntary system of recruiting, and therefore I do appeal, and shall appeal when fitting opportunity occurs, to the Government that they will be careful that these erratic actions are corrected, and a just scale of dealing with all sections provided. It is absurd to suppose that the production of food can be carried on if the farmer has to enlist and the ploughman is left behind. I can give many examples of that kind, but it will do on another occasion. There is one point connected with the right hon. Gentleman's Department. It is a matter that is perplexing farmers very much indeed and also traders, but especially farmers, and we want a clear indication of what is in the mind of the Government with reference to the enlistment of farm workers on the land. On the top page of Lord Selborne's letter he says that he has arranged with Lord Kitchener that men in certain classes employed on farms will not be accepted for enlistment even if they should offer themselves. The Under-Secretary for War said that agricultural workers who present themselves for enlistment will not be refused, but it was not intended to canvass for recruits among starred men. Those two statements are irreconcilable and are causing great confusion in the minds of farmers. The farmers are ready to part with fit and proper men for the War, but they want the matter dealt with on equitable lines. The great scarcity of labour is tending already to interfere with the production of farm produce. After the different lines indicated in Lord Kitchener's pamphlet and the right hon. Gentleman's answer to the hon. Member for Wilton (Captain C. Bathurst), farmers do not know how far they can go on with cultivation, because they are unaware how many men they will have available. If the right hon. Gentleman would issue a statement letting farmers know exactly how they stand with reference to the recruiting of their men, I am sure it would be helpful, and it would encourage agriculturists to go on producing the greatest amount of food out of the land. I shall be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman will clear up that point and make it plain to the agricultural community.
With regard to the starring of the various agricultural labourers, as I have already stated, that 15 a matter which should be addressed to the Local Government Board, and I am afraid that I cannot give him a detailed answer. All I can do is to promise that the tribunal to be set up for disputed cases will be a judicial one, in which I am sure the hon. Member will have confidence. With regard to farm workers, and the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Wilton, I think my answer has been misunderstood. Although I am afraid it was somewhat ambiguous, when I said they will not be refused enlistment, I meant that the men might be enlisted but they would return to their work and pass Into the Reserve, and while there would be no charge on the Army funds they would still be enlisted soldiers, and in the event of real necessity might be called upon to serve. Until that necessity arose they would be able to continue doing agricultural work. I hope the hon. Gentleman will realise that there is no inconsistency between Lord Selborne's letter and the answer which I gave, because the two things are perfectly consistent. With reference to what the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. J. Mason) said, I was a little surprised to hear that there were forty-eight doctors engaged in what was described principally as the management of the men and officers, as I understand, of the Royal Army Medical Corps, who have, of course, had all the training and experience required by the very severe test of the medical profession, and required also of the commissioned ranks of the Royal Army Medical Corps. I will, of course, make it my business to examine into the statement and see whether any relief can be given with regard to what my hon. Friend quite justly described on these facts as being a wastage of valuable material. With regard to his other point as to the hospitals here at home, hospitals which are to some extent administered by laymen, that again is a question which I think would be properly the subject of investigation to see whether we might not adopt the plan suggested by my hon. Friend for use in the Army. I am sure my hon. Friend will acquit me of being rash. I do not wish to give any pledge which I am not able to perform, and I hope that I have never done so. When he says he thinks that in the Royal Army Medical Corps there must be very many cases where we are using these highly skilled and highly trained men for subordinate, administrative work, which a clerk could do as well if not better, I would remind him of this fact: you might have a hospital unit where you must have a given number of doctors, and there might not be enough work of the administrative character to utilise the whole time of a clerk. Therefore, you might have two men there, a layman doing administrative work and a doctor doing medical work, and there would not be sufficient work to occupy the full time of each, while the Royal Army Medical Corps officer might be able to combine the duties of the two and do them perfectly well.
It would be a very small unit.
It would be a small unit, but the whole thing has to be considered in relation to a large organisation, embodying as it does in many cases rather small units all over the country. I throw that out as one of the difficulties which I am sure the hon. Gentleman will recognise and appreciate. My hon. Friend went on to inform me of the rates of pay for motor drivers. I am sorry that I did not know that this was coming on. I have not been able to secure the necessary information as to the reason for this high rate of pay. I confess that it does seem high to me.
I raised it several times.
Of course, it is a financial question to be dealt with by my hon. Friend (Mr. H. W. Forster). It is a question with which I am not able to deal at the present time and whether it is possible at this time of day to revise the rates of pay in the Army, which I am sure the House will realise is not a very easy thing to do—
I think it ought to be done seeing that you have thousands of men out in France whom you pay 1s. 2d. a day.
I am sorry that I have been given so short a time. I did want to say something about promotion.
Say it now.
I think it is only due to the House to answer the hon. Gentleman opposite. It is only due to the House that I should answer the hon. Gentleman's point and also that raised by the hon. Member for Devizes, of which he gave me notice. I will deal with the question of promotion first. My hon. Friend behind me dealt with it and himself gave the explanation, which is quite simple. But it is one thing to give an explanation and quite another thing to produce a scheme which will remedy the state of things complained of. I quite sympathise with those officers who come back from the War and all the hardships it has entailed—who are, in fact, seasoned warriors in many cases and find themselves in a position junior to their own subordinates. That is a very hard case. But it must be remembered that we have to find officers for these reserve formations. That is an essential requirement. It is very easy to understand how this thing comes about, but I will endeavour to see whether there is any remedy possible, consistent with the regular appointment and promotion of officers in the Army, by which this can be put right. I see great difficulty in it, however; it is a very complicated and difficult matter, and I hope the House will realize that that is so. But I may say at once frankly it is a system which requires some-remedy, if one is possible.
I should also say in passing that we have utilised to the best of our power those wounded officers who are capable of good service to the State but are not able to again go through the rigours of a campaign and all the hardships of warfare, although they can do light duties. We have utilised these officers, who are worth their weight in gold to us, for the training of these reserve battalions. The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) asks us to make up our minds whether these second line units are to be formations to go out to the Front to fight. I have nothing to withdraw from the speech which I made and which he was good enough to quote. I think it was an accurate presentment of the case. What I said was that it was really intended on some future occasion, when the occasion arose, to utilise these second line units as formations that might go out to fight. And answering a question two or three months later, I said there was no immediate intention to send them out. The occasion had not then arisen. These two statements were not inconsistent one with the other. The occasion has not yet arisen. The House should also bear in mind that we cannot denude the whole of this country of troops. We could not do it, and no sane Government would do it. I do not know whether the Germans are going to send an expeditionary force to these shores. If so, we should require troops to meet it.
Why not utilise the Volunteer Training Corps?
That is a rather difficult question. We should want trained soldiers. I am sure the House realises that it is essential in the conduct of a great campaign of this kind that we should not denude the whole of this country of trained troops. When my hon. Friend speaks of the second line formations being disheartened and discouraged, I would beg of him to put heart into them by telling them that they are performing a great service to the country by being there ready to meet the Germans, to meet them in the gate if the time should come when they should invade this country.
That is one point. The main point to which I wished to call attention was, that whether they were for Home defence or foreign service it was equally essential that they should be made up to full strength, so that they might be efficient and fighting units if required. That is what discourages them.
I was going to deal with that when the hon. Member interrupted me. Of course, it is very desirable that all units should be brought up to strength. There are a great many things which are very desirable but which you are not able to do. You really ought not to blame the authorities, because they have not got enough men. You have not always got enough men for all the units in the country. The whole of this question has arisen really on account of the fact that there was an insufficient proportion for draft finding for the Territorial Force. That is really the crux and the initial difficulty of the whole situation. I think the hon. Gentleman realises that there was no real scheme in the organisation of the Territorial Force for what is called draft finding. Therefore all these new units are improvisations after the outbreak of war, and the second line units were intended originally, as I think I have already said, to be draft finding units for the battalions abroad. The second line units were made into Home defence units with a possibility of going abroad, and the third line units had to be raised. It is essential that the third line units should claim recruits as they come along. That is a necessity. I do not see any way out of it. If there are not sufficient well-trained troops in the third line units to go and replace the wastage of War in the first line, then, of course, the second line units have been drawn upon and made the draft finding units. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman considers that a desirable course to adopt or not. I take it he does not, as he shakes his head. On the other hand, I have had representations—I had one to-day from the hon. Member for the Barnsley Division (Sir J. Walton), who came to me and asked me whether we would not send reinforcements out of the second line units rather than the third line units, because they had only had from three to four months' training. That seems to me not a bad reason. On the other hand, I dare say that is the kind of action which my hon. Friend thinks is unduly depressing to the second line units—making them into a draft-finding machine. That is utilising the second line units for three purposes—first, as a Home defence force; secondly, as a force that might well eventually have to go abroad to fight; and, thirdly, as a draft-finding machine. In heaven's name what more could that unit do? What greater demands can you make? You cannot make any more. The whole point of military requirements seems to be found by that very unit. We look on them as most important in the whole machinery of military organisation, and, so far from their being depreciated or put, as it were, in a back place, on the contrary we are looking for every kind of service from them, and there is already a most valuable service. I do not think I can say more. I do not think I need deal with what the hon. Member said about a paper Army. I do not think that this is the time, when we have a very large Army in the field, to describe it as paper, and I do not think he really meant that seriously.
If you have thirty units, none of them up to strength, you have merely got those units on paper, and if you had twenty-five units which were up to strength they would be more efficient.
I quite realise that. It is quite arguable whether there were not more formations formed than was desirable. At the same time if you do not aim at a great object you will never achieve it. Therefore, the Secretary of State for War is entitled to the gratitude of his countrymen for aiming so high and for having so very nearly accomplished his aim. You would not have had anything like the Army you have to-day if you had not set out with an enormous objective. The hon. Member also asked me how it was that there was a difference between the £100 cost of a soldier in peace time and the £250 or £300 a year that the soldier costs us in war time, and he asked whether a large amount of that was not due to money spent on advertisements in getting recruits.
And other costs for recruiting.
I do not know whether it would be possible eventually to ascertain the precise amount spent upon recruiting in the year. I do not like to promise whether it can be done or not; but the amount spent on advertisements has been given, and it is quite negligible compared with the four or five millions per day we are spending, considering for a moment what we are spending not on recruiting but on the War. You never had to do all that in peace time for the Territorial Force. You have now 700,000 Territorials, and you are paying separation allowances for their wives and children. All those things have to be considered, so that the amount that has been spent upon advertisement is really negligible.
Then the hon. Member went on to ask me in relation to wastage. I am rather sorry my hon. Friend should have brought this to public notice, because I think it would have been really more calculated to achieve his object if he had informed me that he had those cases in his mind and investigation could have been made. I dare say other hon. Gentlemen may know of cases of waste of this kind, but I am bound to say that this is the first I have heard of waste in the matter of harness. If specific cases are brought to my notice or sent to me by post, I shall be most delighted to see whether any reforms can be instituted in that regard. As to the pay of boys in the Remount Department and the statement that they are being paid excessive wages of 20s. a week, I have never heard of that. I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary has had his notice drawn to these cases of excessive wages. Certainly I have never heard of them before, and, therefore, it is quite impossible for me to give any kind of explanation as to how or why they have occurred. I am sure if they are as excessive as my hon. Friend represents them, it is a matter for investigation.
I merely gave them as an example of what is universal.
When the hon. Member talks about "universal" I think he is using a rather wide word. How often have I stood at this Table and been told that the War Office is a most niggardly, cheese-paring Department, and that nothing can be got out of it! It is that kind of charge which one is accustomed to meet. If excessive sums have been paid for certain articles I am sorry, but it is essential to get the article, and if the hon. Gentleman will only place himself in the position of the representative of a great Department like this he will see how impossible it is to exercise control over little things like the pay of boys. Probably very few boys are employed. I think the number must be very small. One cannot really make oneself responsible without notice, and without some chance of investigation in regard to charges of this kind. I think the hon. Member will realise the difficulty of the position.
I want to join in the appeal made by the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. J. Mason) about these motor men. We have many thousands of men at the front whose pay is 6s. per day, and while you have numbers of men who are being recruited at 1s. and 1s. 2d. a day you are continuing to recruit motor drivers at 6s. a day. It amounts to an enormous sum of money, the difference between the pay you are giving to the men who enlist now at 1s. a day and the pay you are giving to these so called mechanics. I ask my right hon. Friend to look into the matter, and see whether the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Windsor cannot be given effect to. I have raised it on three or four occasions, without any success.
I would also like to know what is being done about the machine-gun school which we have been promised. The announcement was made some weeks ago that a machine-gun school was to be set up in this country for the purpose of training officers and men. I think that nothing has been done.
That is not so.
I think that something has been done this week, but up to the present no contracts have been let so far as I can understand, for the formation of this school. I trust that my right hon. Friend will push on with this machine-gun school, having regard to the very large number of machine guns we shall have in the field next year.
I can assure my hen. Friend that although there has been a hitch—I will make that admission—I think the difficulty has been overcome; and, in regard to this machine-gun school, the preparations are now in a very forward state, and I hope to make an announcement shortly.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for to-morrow (Wednesday).
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty minutes after Eleven o'clock.