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Commons Chamber

Volume 75: debated on Thursday 18 November 1915

House of Commons

Thursday, November 18, 1915

New Writs

County of Cornwall (Mid or St. Austell Division), in the room of Captain the Hon. Thomas Charles Reginald Agar-Robartes, died of wounds received in action.—[ Mr. Gulland. ]

Borough of St. Helen's, in the room of Rigby Philip Watson Swift, esquire, K. C., Recorder for the Borough of Wigan.— [ Lord Edmund Talbot. ]

Colonial Reports (Annual)

Copy presented of Report, No. 870 (Tongan Islands Protectorate, Report for 1914–15) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

European War

Copy presented of Correspondence relative to the alleged Ill-treatment of German Subjects captured in the Cameroons [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Liquor Traffic (Central Control Board)

Copy presented of First Report of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) appointed under the Defence of the Realm (Amendment) (No. 3) Act, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Regimental Debts Acts, 1893

Copy presented of Amendment to the Regulations made under the Regimental Debts Act, 1893 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Persia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is able to give the House any information concerning the state of affairs in Persia?

I am unable to add anything at present to the reply returned to the hon. Member for Stirling Burghs on the 16th instant.

Can the Noble Lord tell us whether the Shah is still at Teheran?

Has the Noble Lord any word that the Shah is going towards Ispahan with the German, Austrian, and Turkish Ministers?

Our information is that he is at Teheran. It is impossible for me to say what he may or may not do.

Can the Noble Lord say where the German, Austrian, and Turkish Ministers have gone, after leaving Teheran?

Greco-Bulgarian Treaty

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can lay upon the Table of the House Papers dealing with the attitude of Greece during the War and in the course of the recent negotiations; and if he can state whether the Foreign Office has official knowledge of the Greco-Bulgarian Treaty announced to have been signed on 15th October?

Papers will be laid eventually, but I am afraid that I cannot undertake to do so now. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

National Volunteers (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that several cases containing rifles and bayonets, consigned from Birmingham and addressed to a Member of this House, care of the National Volunteers, have been delivered in Dublin within the last few months; whether these cases were, in the first instance, detained by the civil authorities but were afterwards released and delivered to the consignees by order of the military authority; whether the Law Officers of the Crown were consulted as to the legality of these shipments; and if he will state why the makers of these arms have not been exclusively employed in producing munitions for His Majesty's Forces?

The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative, and to the third in the negative. I have no information as to whether the makers of the arms referred to by the hon. Member have or have not been exclusively employed in producing munitions for His Majesty's Forces since the outbreak of war. I have been told that these rifles are not the service rifle supplied to the Army, and that they have been obtained in large numbers by the Volunteer Corps in England. They were probably—I do not know—manufactured before the War.

Milk Supply (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware of complaints of the difficulty experienced in many rural districts in Ireland to obtain an adequate supply of milk; and whether, in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture and the local authorities, he will consider the advisability of immediately adopting remedial measures to meet this want of the workers in agricultural places?

I am aware of the difficulty referred to, which was disclosed in evidence before the Viceregal Commission on the milk supply. I am informed that Governmental remedial measures are not at present practicable, but it is hoped that creameries, as well as farmers having milk at their disposal, will realise their duty to make a portion of their supply available to meet the needs of dwellers in agricultural places.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to have this recommendation brought into effect in order that remedial measures may be adopted?

Hong Kong

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has had his attention called to the fact that there are more than 300 German interned prisoners in Hong Kong, and that their presence in this Colony is a source of danger to the peace and contentment of the inhabitants, and interferes with their control over the natives employed in trade; and whether he will arrange to remove these Germans to an internment camp in Australia or elsewhere?

I have received from the Governor of Hong Kong a copy of a letter from the Hong Kong Chamber of Commerce, making the representations stated in the first part of the question. The Governor has replied that the chamber's fear as to the danger of the presence of the camp is not shared by the responsible authorities, and after considering the matter in consultation with the War Office I do not at present propose to take any action.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say who are the inhabitants who have control over the natives employed in trade?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the delay in the liquidation proceedings in the case of various German firms who are doing business in Hong Kong prior to the outbreak of war and to the antecedents of some persons who claim to carry on business as a British or American firm at the present time; and whether he proposes to take any action to clear German influence out of this British Colony?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; the whole matter is now under the consideration of His Majesty's Government, with the view of securing the object desired by my hon. Friend, namely, the elimination of German influence from the Colony.

Office of Works

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether the temporary draughtsman who was recently dismissed from his post had for the past twelve months been in receipt of the balance of his civil pay, i.e., civil pay less naval pay; whether he has in this case treated a man under a certain regulation for twelve months and on his dismissal acted as if the said regulation was inapplicable to him; and whether he is aware that there exists dissatisfaction in his Department in view of the fact that this interpretation of the Prime Minister's promise may ultimately affect over fifty other employés?

The answer to the first question is in the affirmative. The answer to the second is that this draughtsman, with others, was by a special arrangement allowed to serve in the Antiaircraft Corps while continuing his office work during the day. Owing to reduction of work there was nothing for him to do, and he was properly dispensed with under his agreement. When he is not in the Service, I obviously cannot treat him as if he were in it. The answer to the third question is that I cannot say how many men will be affected. It depends on the amount of work in my Department..

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he will state the total number of temporary employés of his Department who have enlisted in all branches of His Majesty's Naval and Military Forces and, since their enlistment, have been paid the balance of their civil pay; and in how many cases has the civil employment of such men been terminated by the Board?

Temporary employés to the number of 501 in my Department have joined for whole-time service in His Majesty's Forces and been paid balance of civil pay. Fifty-six temporary employés have joined the Anti-aircraft Corps under the same conditions as to pay, but under an arrangement whereby they continued during the day to work in the Department. The employment has been determined in three cases coming under the second class because there was no work for the men to do.

Is it not really rather a serious matter that 500 employés are doubtful as to their position under the promise of the Prime Minister made in August of last year?

No, Sir; those 500 employés are not in any doubt at all. They have joined for whole-time service—a quite different matter. If the hon. Member cares to see me I will explain the whole matter to him.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the promise given by him on 10th August, 1914, respecting Civil servants joining the Forces for the War has been held not to apply to un-established draughtsmen in the Office of Works, though up till recently these men have understood that this promise included their case and have been treated accordingly by the Office of Works; and whether, to prevent ambiguities and. any sense of injustice, he can, by a Treasury Minute or otherwise, so define the promise given on 10th August, 1914, to Civil servants that their rights and privileges may be clearly established?

No, Sir. Unestablished draughtsmen in the Office of Works are held to be entitled to Treasury "circular terms," as they are called, when they leave their work with the permission of the Department to join the Army or Navy. The heads of all Government Departments are well aware of these terms.

Even if the heads of Government Departments are aware, are the employés—which is much more important —themselves aware?

So far as I know they are certainly aware. In the two offices with which I have been concerned since the beginning of the War they have all been aware of it.

Metropolitan Police District (Drunkenness Among Women)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the number of women convicted of drunkenness in the Metropolitan Police District for the years ending 31st October, 1913, 1914, and 1915; and the number of those convicted in 1915 who were in receipt of war separation allowances?

The figures for the three years mentioned are 16,609, 18,538, and 16,526. So far as is shown by the records which have been referred to for the purpose of getting out these figures, sixty-two of the women convicted in 1914–1915 were in receipt of war allowances, but the true figure may be larger.

Alien Enemies

asked how many alien enemies, or persons of hostile origin or association, remain uninterned or un-repatriated in Bradford?

There are in Bradford 139 persons of various enemy nationalities, of whom seventy-three are females.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any assurance that those people will be interned before long?

No, I could not do that. There are some of them old Turks, and some are children and some are old men. Every one of them, I believe, has been recommended for exemption by the Judicial Advisory Committee.

asked the Home Secretary whether Woolwich is a prohibited area; how many alien enemies or persons of hostile origin or association are still at large in Woolwich and the neighbouring village of Charlton; whether he is aware that a German, who was a postmaster at Woolwich until after the outbreak of war, is now residing at Shooter's Hill, where his behaviour on the occasion of Zeppelin raids excited local indignation; and if he will say why this man has not yet been interned?

Woolwich is not a prohibited area. I am informed by the Commissioner of Police that in Woolwich borough and the neighbouring village of Charlton there are 131 men and 124 women of enemy nationality. Nothing is known to the police with regard to the German referred to in the latter part of the question.

Can the right hon. Gentleman suggest any part of England which should be a prohibited area more than Woolwich?

It is no part of the duty of the Home Office to select prohibited areas, but if the hon. Gentleman has got good reasons why it should be done I will see that they are communicated to the proper authority.

Will the right hon. Gentleman not recognise the state of the case himself and use his influence to have it made a prohibited area?

asked whether enemy aliens and naturalised enemy aliens are allowed to own and run motor cars or to run motor garages; and, if so, what are the numbers so allowed in each case?

The possession of a motor car by an alien enemy, except with the written permission of the police, has been prohibited under the Aliens Restriction Order since the beginning of the War. I have no precise information as to the number of cases in which permission has been granted, but such cases must be very rare, and I have reason to believe that the general prohibition is strictly enforced.

Defence of the Realm Act Prosecutions

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of John Bennets Bailey, a labourer, who was sentenced to three months' imprisonment under the Defence of the Realm Act because, under the influence of Tolstoi's writings, he has written an article strongly opposed to militarism, which he kept in his pocket with no apparent intention of publishing; and whether he will examine the facts of the case in order to see whether they warrant the sentence imposed?

Such notice of the evidence as I have seen appear to indicate that there was an intention to publish documents which clearly contravened the Defence of the Realm Regulations, buff that was a question for the judge and jury at the trial, and if the prisoner were dissatisfied with the verdict or sentence it was open to him to apply to the Court of Criminal Appeal. I have nothing before me which would justify my intervention in the case.

asked the Attorney-General whether, having regard to the assurance given by his predecessor that it was not the intention of the Government to use the powers of the Defence of the Realm (Amendment) Act against persons giving publicity to statements of opinions, however foolish and however far from wise in judgment, which were not wilful and dangerous misstatements of fact, and that the Regulations which the Government would make under the Act would be framed to deal only with such misstatements of fact as he then in that Debate described, and seeing that the Regulations since made under the Act in question have been used sometimes after an open trial, and at other times after a secret trial, to punish persons for giving publicity to statements of opinion, notwithstanding his predecessor's assurance, he will take steps to amend the Regulations in question and make good his predecessor's assurance?

(Mr. Cave, received with general cheers ): So far from intending to depart from the assurance given by my predecessor, I desire to renew it. As far as I know, no proceedings have been instituted in any Criminal Court under the Regulations for the Defence of the Realm which have been inconsistent with the assurance in question, and it seems to me to be unnecessary to take steps to amend the Regulations in the direction indicated.

I desire to give notice that I shall to-day, if I get the opportunity on the Appropriation Bill, bring this matter before the right hon. Gentleman and the House.

Recruiting

Enlistment of Friendly Aliens

asked what will be the position in regard to enlistment of friendly aliens resident in this country after 30th November?

The question of the enlistment of friendly aliens is under Consideration, but I cannot give any indication of the decision likely to be arrived at.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is already quite a number of friendly aliens in the Army?

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider one or two cases, without any detriment to these patriotic and public-spirited gentlemen, if I furnish him with the names?

Clergymen of Military Age

asked the Attorney-General if it is intended to take proceedings against the Archbishop of Canterbury and certain bishops of the Anglican Church, under the Defence of the Realm Act, for issuing instructions to clergymen of military age who have received Lord Derby's invitation to enlist in the Army, not to respond to this invitation; whether he is aware that those instructions are calculated to hinder recruiting; and, if it is not proposed to prosecute these prelates, will he say if it is the settled policy of the Government to act under the Defence of the Realm Act only when the alleged offender is in humble circumstances and uneducated?

My right hon. Friend has asked me, in his absence, to reply to this question. To each and every part of this question the answer is in the negative.

Are we to assume that the policy of the Government is to let men like the Archbishop of Canterbury say and do what they like, and that less educated persons in a less exalted, spiritual, and social sphere are to be sentenced to six months' imprisonment for a non-deliberate expression in a railway train?

No, Sir; my hon. Friend is too much a master of logic to infer anything of the sort.

Will equal respect be paid to men who have religious convictions of the same kind as those of the Archbishop of Canterbury, but who belong to other denominations?

If my hon. Friend will read the answer of the Director-General of Recruiting in the matter he will see that ministers of all denominations are on the same footing?

I would like to ask whether most has been done to encourage the nation in its task by the Archbishop of Canterbury or by the hon. Member for Blackburn?

Bethnal Green Battalion

asked whether application has been made by the mayor and borough council of Bethnal Green for permission to enrol a battalion to be called the Bethnal Green battalion; and, if so, whether the application can be acceded to?

I understand that an application to raise a Territorial Force unit was made to the Territorial Association, but was not endorsed by that body. No trace of any such application as that mentioned in the question is to be found at the War Office.

Would it be acceded to if the application were made to the War Office in addition to being made to the Territorial Association?

Volunteer Training Corps

asked whether it is proposed to employ the assistance of the Volunteer Training Corps, who have attained considerable experience in drill, to give preliminary training in drill and musketry to men who may enlist under Lord Derby's scheme?

Yes, Sir. Arrangements of the kind suggested are being made. I may state that the authorities of the various Volunteer Training Corps have kindly offered to give the War Office every assistance in their power.

Army Pay Department

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether he is aware of the strictures passed in many parts of the Kingdom upon the clerical employment of active young soldiers in the Army Pay Department, for instance, whom it is thought should be in the combatant ranks; that this practice is believed to have a deterrent effect upon recruiting; has he considered the suggestion that many young men rejected by Army doctors by reason of defective eyesight and for similar partial physical disabilities might do this clerical work and thereby free other men who are both able and anxious to undertake the active duties of the soldier; and (2) whether he is aware of the case of a young solicitor in busy practice in a great northern city who has tried several times to enlist in the Army, but was rejected invariably because he was obliged to wear spectacles; that lately once again this gentleman when asking for employment, this time in the Army Pay Corps, was repulsed by the officer to whom he had' offered himself, with a question as to what he meant by applying if he could not pass the Army sight test; and whether office work employment cannot be found for such highly-trained and patriotic young gentlemen?

I am afraid I have no information as to the particular case. For a considerable time past only men not eligible for active service have been enlisted for the Army Pay Corps and all present vacancies in pay offices are being filled by women. We have been encouraging all the eligible clerks whose services can be spared to join the combatant ranks.

Clerical Duties

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the annoyance felt by certain employers in Bradford, and doubtless in many other places also, when they find that valuable clerks of their already depleted staffs whom they have felt it their duty to encourage to enlist, and whom they have promised to supply with part of their salaries, are not soldiering at all but are employed close at hand on military clerical duties, typewriting, shorthand writing, and routine office work, which it is maintained do not require the services of athletic young men, but might be done equally well by men not of military age, by skilful women and girls, or by candidates rejected by the Royal Army Medical Corps officers for partial physical disabilities; and whether he will find some remedy for a state of things which is said to be straining the sympathy of ardent employer recruiters of the Army?

The dissatisfaction referred to has not been brought to the notice of the War Office. As far as possible only those unfit for more active duties are employed upon clerical work-Perhaps my hon. Friend would send me particulars so that I may make inquiry.

Boys Under Seventeen

asked why, and by what authority, Lord Derby's letter has been sent to boys under seventeen years of age; why such boys are being canvassed and threatened with being summoned before the local tribunal; and if this is done with the knowledge and sanction of the War Office?

If Lord Derby's letter has been sent to boys under seventeen years of age, this has been due either to a mistake on the part of those sending out the letters, or to the fact that the boy gave his age as eighteen or older when signing his registration paper. Boys of eighteen can attest under the group system, but they will not be called upon for service until they reach the age of nineteen.

Can the right hon. Gentleman regard that answer as satisfactory, seeing that there are hundreds and probably thousands of boys on the registration forms under seventeen who have received this letter from Lord Derby?

I am amazed to learn it, but if it has been done it is entirely an error and mistake owing to the hurry in which the letters were sent out.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is not a fact that Lord Derby's letter was sent to Lord Kitchener?

Yes, and I have another right hon. Colleague in the Cabinet who has received a similar missive.

Lord Derby's Scheme

asked whether, in connection with Lord Derby's recruiting scheme, his attention has been called to the fact that the classification as single of all men married after registration day, 15th August, 1915, is unfair for the reason that no previous notice of this classification had been given when the scheme was made known in October, 1916; whether, as one of the essential features of the scheme professes to be that single men will be called first, he will consider the desirability of arranging that men marrying between 15th August, 1915, and the date of the publication of the scheme should be allowed to enlist under the scheme on the same terms as to being called up as other married men of their own ages, so long as reasonable proof can be adduced that the marriage was not contracted with the object of evading military service; and whether, in such cases, instructions will be given to the various tribunals to deal favourably with applications for transfers from the single groups to the corresponding married groups?

No, Sir, I fear I cannot encourage the hope that that proposal will be adopted.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that nothing of this kind was referred to in the National Registration forms?

asked the Undersecretary of State for War, whether he is aware that the recruiting under Lord Derby's scheme in the borough of St. Pancras has been impeded by the unprecedented rush of recruits, and that loss of time and money is being caused to the recruits by reason of the lack of facilities afforded by the War Office for enlisting recruits; whether the War Office have been asked to reduce this congestion by using the offices of the Territorial regiment in St. Pancras, and of the 17th Rifle Brigade, St. Pancras, for general recruiting and have not acceded to this proposal; and, if so, what are their reasons for so doing?

I have made myself acquainted with the average number of recruits presenting themselves in the Borough of St. Pancras during the last nine days, and I do not find that there has been any congestion. No request such as that mentioned in the last part of the question has been received.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many cases it takes as much as seven hours for this formality to be gone through and that men have to wait all that time?

My information is not in accordance with that statement. It is that there are not more than twenty standing at a time, and therefore there was no undue strain upon the officers.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that recruiting under the Derby scheme is greatly hindered among the less wealthy of the middle-class people by the fact that they are tied to the lease of and liability to rates for houses which their relatives would be unable to maintain were they to enlist; and, if so, will he say whether anything is being done or is about to be done to remove this obstacle, either in dealing with the landlords, or with the local rating authorities, or with both?

I am aware that the difficulty referred to does exist, but I fear I can add nothing to what was stated on this matter by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on the 4th November.

Munitions

Munition Areas (Educational Facilities)

asked the President of the Board of Education (1) whether he is aware of the increase of population in certain munition areas like Coventry; and what provisions are being made for the education of the increased population; and (2) asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware of the number of children of school age who have crowded with their parents into munition areas; and whether, where extra housing accommodation is being provided in such areas, school accommodation, either by temporary buildings, engaging halls, or otherwise, is being provided for the children of munition workers?

I am aware that in some places the increase of population due to munitions work has caused difficulties in the schools, but I have reason to believe that all that is possible is being done by the local education authorities to provide accommodation by one means or another for all the children in the areas affected. The present restrictions upon school building, of course, tend to increase the difficulty.

Have inspectors of the Board of Education this matter in hand, to see that the children are properly provided for?

Scheduled Areas, Worcester

asked the Minister of Munitions on what principle Worcester has been scheduled by the Board of Control; whether the military authorities had asked that this should be done; and if he will explain why the Board of Control is exercising in this case the powers which Parliament understood that it was conferring on them for exceptional use?

The Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), after holding a local inquiry, recommended the inclusion of Worcester in the Midlands area on the ground of its geographical relation to Birmingham and other important munition centres, lest the object of the Order should be defeated on account of the proximity of non-regulated centres.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is only one controlled factory at Worcester, and very little munition work done there; and that official reports for the city report as to the prevalence of temperance there for several years past; and, as these powers were conferred for the successful prosecution of the War—

May I ask the hon. Gentleman will he reconsider the question of including Worcester?

The decision was based not on Worcester: on proximity to a large munition area.

Wages of Women

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the variation in the scales of wages paid to women on munitions work and the neglect of many firms to adopt the wages recommendations already issued by the Ministry, it is proposed in any Amendment to the Munitions of War Act to include provisions taking power to prescribe standard rates of wages and conditions for all establishments engaged on munitions work?

The matter shall be considered, but the hon. Member will see that if his suggestion were adopted it would place a large additional burden of work on the Ministry of Munitions.

Does the hon. Gentleman not think that if these women are debarred by Act of Parliament from going from one establishment where they are getting less wages to another where they can get more that it is the duty of the Department to see that the wages which the women are paid are fair?

Yes; the hon. Member will see by this circular that we are endeavouring to secure uniformity.

Is the circular not merely a recommendation, and not an enforcement at all?

Questions

Day Nurseries (Grants)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether day nurseries receiving Grants are limited to provide for children not over three years of age; whether any provision is made for the care or education of children over three but under the age at which they are in their different localities admitted to school; and, if so, whether such provision is made by local authorities or by the Board directly without relying on local control and aid?

Under the Board's Regulations day nurseries are intended primarily for young children under three years of age, but children over three may be admitted if proper provision can be made for them. A number of nursery schools, specially intended for the care of children over three years of age, have been established by voluntary agencies in different parts of the country, but no Grant is paid in respect of them. No provision is made by local authorities for children between three and five except in public elementary schools.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is great feeling in some quarters against these Grants? I suggest they are made frequently in some cases to sectarian bodies totally devoid of local control.

Mercantile Marine Engineers (Temporary Commissions)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is now in a position to reply to the representations made by the deputation received by him at the Admiralty on the 13th October regarding the position of engineers of the mercantile marine holding temporary commissions in the Royal Naval Reserve?

The Admiralty has approved of the following, as affecting engineers of the mercantile marine holding temporary commissions in the Royal Naval Reserve:—The titles chief engineer, senior engineer, engineer, and assistant engineer, Royal Naval Reserve, will be altered to engineer-commander, engineer lieutenant-commander, engineer lieutenant, engineer sub-lieutenant, Royal Naval Reserve, respectively. This change will also apply to engineer officers on the Active List of the permanent Royal Naval Reserve. The necessary authority will be immediately sought. On a ship paying off, the commissions of temporary engineer officers will not be automatically terminated, but officers will be allowed to retain them for a period of twenty-eight days with a view to possible further employment in the Naval Service. During this period they will not, however, receive pay from the Admiralty. So far as possible, vacancies in the higher ranks of engineer officers, Royal Naval Reserve, occurring in a ship will be filled by the promotion of officers of junior rank serving in that ship. I may further say that it is proposed to extend the grant of commissions to all engineer officers below the second engineer serving in mercantile fleet auxiliaries who hold first class Board of Trade certificates. Instructions to the above effect will be promulgated shortly.

Will the holding of a first class certificate or of a first class engineer's position be a qualifying consideration; and will the granting of a commission carry pay with it?

The granting of commissions will obviously carry pay; and they will be granted, as I have said, to all engineer officers below second engineer serving in the mercantile fleet auxiliaries who hold first class Board of Trade certificates.

Increasing House Rents

asked the President of the Local Government Board, whether the Committee appointed to inquire into the circumstances connected with rent raising and capricious evictions have made a Report; whether the Report will be issued to the Members of the House; whether it is proposed to bring in a remedial measure; and when it may be introduced?

The Committee referred to is presumably the one which was appointed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland, and the first part of the question is therefore for him. As regards the last part of the question I am not yet in a position to add to what I stated last week in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Poplar.

Have any inquiries on this subject been made in England and Ireland? We are equally interested with Scotland, perhaps more so.

I am not responsible for the government of Ireland, or for any inquiries made there. I have already made inquiries in England, but I do not propose to present the conclusions to the House in the form of a report. I shall deal with them as they arise in connection with any further steps which the Government may take.

Are not the Government going to deal with this question before we adjourn?

I have stated more than once that the Government were going to deal with the question. There are many difficulties connected with it, to which I have referred before, and which must inevitably be considered. I cannot imagine anything worse than that a Bill should be introduced before those particular difficulties have been carefully examined. I regret that there should be any suggestion that the statement which I have made on behalf of the Government is not a, bonâ fide statement.

It is, and they are not likely to shirk it. This question has arisen suddenly—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] —Oh yes it has, and information of a reliable nature upon it is difficult at first to obtain. There has been and there, will be no avoidable delay.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have been putting questions on this matter for nearly a year?

That is obviously a question that will be answered when the Government make their proposals.

I see the Secretary for Scotland present. As the first part of the question ought to have been addressed to him, can he add anything to the reply?

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he is yet in a position to introduce a Bill to deal with the question of increased rents in Scotland; and if he. can give a date for its Second Reading?

In the temporary absence of the Leader of the House, I am not able to fix a date, but I hope an early date may be arranged for the Second Reading.

Is it not possible to-give some idea of the date? I want to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he has considered the state of feeling now prevailing on the Clyde; whether he has read what has appeared on the subject in the ' "Manchester Guardian," to the effect that 4,000 or 5,000 people, many of whom had left work for the purpose, went to the Court to protest against this state of affairs; and whether he does not consider that this state of feeling on the Clyde will become dangerous unless the matter is speedily dealt with?

Yes, Sir, I think the hon. Member is justified in referring to the agitation on the Clyde. I made an investigation into the subject some weeks ago when I was in Glasgow, and as a result set up a Committee—the results of whose labours the hon. Member is acquainted with—to investigate the question. The Report of that Committee has now been published, and has been carefully considered.

When will the Leader of the House be here, so that we can put questions to him?

National Registration Act

CORNWALL asked the President of the Local Government Board whether the system of recording removals under the National Registration Act is proceeding satisfactorily, and whether the Board has as yet had to take any action for not complying with the Regulations?

The Registrar-General is issuing a Circular to Local Registration Authorities with a view to ascertaining how the work referred to is proceeding. The answer to the latter part of the question is in the negative.

Mediterranean Expeditionary Force

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that letters and parcels addressed to officers and soldiers serving in the Dardanelles constantly fail to reach their destinations; and whether he will take steps to rectify this?

I would refer the hon. Member to the very full reply on this subject which I gave on the 3rd instant to the hon. Member for Poplar, a copy of which I am sending him.

Company Law (German Shareholders)

asked the Attorney-General whether, in view of the fact that the Court of Appeal did not give an unanimous decision in the case of the Continental Tyre and Rubber Company (Great Britain), Limited, v. Daimler and Company, Limited, and that the majority decided that a company incorporated in this country in which all the shares except one were held by German subjects residing in Germany was an entity created by Statute and had the rights of action in our Law Courts, which are reserved in respect of individuals to British subjects and alien friends, and that Lord Lindley and Lord Wrenbury have publicly expressed the opinion that this decision is opposed to the principle of public policy which underlies the law and ought to be reconsidered by the House of Lords and, if not reversed, altered by Act of Parliament, he will advise the Government to promote an appeal in this case to the House of Lords, or legislation to prevent subjects of the countries with which this country is at war having the right as an incorporated company of maintaining actions in our Law Courts?

The important matters raised in my hon. Friend's question cannot be conveniently dealt with by question and answer. They are, however, being carefully considered.

Arising out of that reply, I desire to give notice that I shall raise this question on the Adjournment on Tuesday evening.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that, if the principle of the decision of the majority of the Appeal Court in the case of the Continental Tyre and Rubber Company (Great Britain), Limited, v. Daimler and Company, Limited, is sound, enemy aliens can, if incorporated in a company registered under British Company Law, own and sail ships entitled to fly the British flag, he intends to take any steps to prevent enemy aliens, under the protection of our Company Law, from acquiring and enjoying privileges from which as individuals they are debarred?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave him to a similar question on 4th November, and to the reply of my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General to a question on this subject by the hon. Member for Brentford on 15th November.

Cotton Goods (Licences)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the delays consequent on the necessity of corresponding with the London office in regard to licences for the export of cotton goods and the necessity for an alteration in the method of procedure at present in force, he will establish a branch office in Manchester for the issue of licences, and include in the staff local experts in the cotton goods export business?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on the 2nd November to the hon. Member for South-West Manchester, in which it is stated that in order to do justice to all parties concerned, it is essential to keep the issue of licences in one place. It is, however, under consideration in what manner local collaboration could be utilised to diminish or obviate any delays that may now occur.

Barley Crop

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the statement issued by his Department that the recent crop of barley is below the average as a consequence of the greatly decreased acreage and a poor average yield per acre; and, this being so, whether he will explain why, in the interests of the country, 1,222,089 cwts. have been permitted to be exported during 1914–15, as compared with 260,603 cwts. in 1913–14?

The increased exports were for the cereal year 1914–15, and were largely the results of a good crop and reduced demand. During the current cereal year no export of barley has been allowed, and exports of malt are severely restricted.

British Armies

Territorial Staff Officers

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he will consider the desirability of appointing some kind of committee to search the units of the Territorial battalions as well as those of the New Armies for promising young officers who have attained already some proficiency in the handling of soldiers, and who can be spared for practical technical training in staff work; (2) whether he is aware that the New Armies, collectively, contain all that is characteristic of the virility and of the intellectual and educated power of the country; that the old Regular Army, by its glorious losses in the field, has ceased to be a sufficiently ample reservoir for staff officers; whether he will take into consideration the advisability of seeking amongst all our Forces, old and new, for officers specially adapted to be trained for staff work; and (3) whether he can see his way to invite Lord Haldane to undertake the organisation of a great national general staff service, suitable for the needs of the moment, from amongst all the combatant officers of all the Services, including the highly educated and scientifically trained young officers to be found in the Territorial Forces and in the New Armies?

I understand that names of officers serving in the New Armies who are considered suitable for staff employment have been called on from time to time, both at home and in the field, and that there is no need for any special committee to be appointed, as the existing machinery whereby commanding officers can recommend their officers for employment on the Staff is sufficient. The names of officers so recommended are noted, and they are employed as opportunity offers.

An arrangement has also been in force for some months whereby eligible officers recovering from wounds or sickness are trained for the Staff in the field by being placed in home appointments, and they are reported on from time to time by their commanders and by independent inspectors. These officers are, when fit for general service, drafted to the Expeditionary Forces, where they are attached to the Staff on probation, and, if found suitable, are given appointments. A considerable number of officers of the New Armies and Territorial Force are now employed on the Staff both in the field and at home.

An arrangement is also being made in France to train regimental officers for the Staff. I may add that, as a rule, regimental officers are not taken for the Staff unless they have had experience of the present War. In view of the arrangements which I have described, there would appear to be no grounds for the adoption of the specific suggestions contained in the questions.

Has any arrangement been made for an interchange of staff officers between the French and our own Armies?

Are we to understand that the Territorial officers are in precisely the same position in regard to opportunities for staff service as officers of the New Army?

The answer which I have read says they are in precisely the same position.

Are we to understand that no preference is given to officers of the Regular Army in the selection of staff appointments?

In my opinion there ought to be none, and I think there is none. I think ability alone ought to be the test.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take the opportunity, on the Appropriation Bill, to give some further information as to the reconstitution of the great General Staff to which the Prime Minister drew attention in his recent statement?

I think that that ought to be done by the Prime Minister, who for the moment is filling the office of Secretary of State for War.

I shall take the opportunity to-night, if called upon, to bring this matter before the House.

Mr. Churchill

asked the Prime Minister, in view of the position of the "Eye-witness" at the Western front now being vacant, whether he will consider the desirability of appointing the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee?

I stated the other day, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green, that the duties originally carried out by "Eye-witness" are now provided for adequately in other ways. I understand the desire of my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee is to wield the sword rather than the pen, and it is not proposed to attempt to interfere with the unfettered exercise of his wishes in this respect.

Departmental Economy

Committee of Business Men

asked the Prime Minister whether, with a view to effectively securing immediate economy in the great spending Departments of the Government, and more particularly the War Office, he can now see his way to agree to the setting up of a Committee composed mainly of business men of the House of Commons, with powers to inquire into and advise upon all contracts entered into on behalf of the State?

Measures for securing the objects which the hon. Member has in view are under the consideration of a Committee of the Cabinet; and I hope it may be possible very shortly to acquaint the House with the steps which it is proposed to take in the matter.

Will the Government do anything in the direction of my question, and is it the intention of the right hon. Gentleman that the only function of Members of Parliament is to vote hundreds of millions of the country's money, but when it comes to the spending of it they are to have nothing to say with regard to reckless or extravagant expenditure until after the War? And whether he is aware that—

Is the right hon. Gentleman now of opinion that lawyers are the best men to manage large business concerns?

Questions

Barley Exports

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the exports of malt from this country for May, June, and July, 579,479 cwts. as against 50,216 cwts. for the same period of 1914; whether malt is still being exported at the same rate; and whether, in view of the price of barley of all qualities in this country and the demand for barley for feeding purposes, he intends to prohibit the export of barley, particularly to Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Holland?

The ample supplies of barley in the country enabled exportation to be allowed somewhat freely during the last cereal year, but much more severe restriction of exports has been latterly adopted. Licences for the export of barley have for some time past been refused

Licences for the export of malt are very severely restricted now owing to shortness of supplies. Hardly any is being allowed to be exported.

Culloden Consolidated Company, Limited

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what grounds the Treasury refuse to permit dealings in the shares of the Culloden Consolidated Company, Limited, seeing that this company is simply an amalgamation of the Rubber Share Trust and Finance Company, Limited, and the Culloden Tea and Rubber Investment Company, Limited, such amalgamation having been carried out by the exchange of fully-paid shares in the Culloden Consolidated Company, Limited, no cash having been asked for; and will he see that the matter is reconsidered and the restriction withdrawn?

An application by the Culloden Consolidated Company, Limited, to issue fully-paid shares to carry out an amalgamation on the lines indicated in the question was refused by the Capital Issues Committee as not being in the public interest, but I have no information as to whether in fact the issue was proceeded with or whether any application has been made to the Stock Exchange Committee to allow dealings in the shares under No. 4 (3) of the Temporary Regulations.

Tithes (Excess Profits)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the increased price of corn arising from a state of war and the consequent increase in the value of tithes, he proposes to levy a tax on any excess profits which may accrue to the recipients of tithes?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary gave on the 28th October to a question on this subject by my hon. Friend the Member for Hanley.

Seeing that the clergy of the Anglican Church are not to give military service and are not to render financial assistance, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what is expected of them in this time of national crisis?

I think if the hon. Member looks at the reply given he will see that the tithes are not likely to come under the terms of the Excess Profits Duty. I understand the increase of tithe for 1915, as compared with 1914, is only 1½ per cent.

Luxuries (Restriction of Consumption)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will consider the question of taking further powers to prevent the introduction of luxuries into this country from foreign countries during the War, so that he may be able to schedule any particular article of this nature which is taking any considerable sum of money out of the country at any time in the same way as articles are proclaimed under the Defence of the Realm Act?

I am considering whether further steps can be taken to restrict consumption of luxuries.

Treasury Bills (Rate of Interest)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the frequent changes in the rate offered by the Bank of England for Treasury Bills has the approval of the bankers and brokers of the City of London, and if the continual rise in the rate of interest offered has had the effect of unsettling the market and the supply of money, as the buyers of the bills at the lower rates feel they have not been well treated in the matter?

The rates at which Treasury Bills are offered to the public are notified daily by the Bank of England and are subject to variation from day to day, according to the requirements of the Exchequer for the time being and the amounts of bills taken up, due regard being had to considerations of general financial policy and to all representations received from persons and institutions whose interests are concerned. All variations in the rates are the subject of consultation beforehand between the Treasury and the Bank of England.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is some dissatisfaction with the rapid changes that have been made in the rate of interest?

I am afraid that whatever happened would give dissatisfaction in some quarters. It is quite obvious that a rise or fall in the rate of bills must adversely affect particular interests.

Peomotions from the Ranks

asked how many second-lieutenants were gazetted during the three months ending 31st October, 1915; and how many of these were promoted from the Armies serving abroad?

During the period in question nearly 7,000 second-lieutenants were gazetted to the Regular Forces. Of these over 650 were promoted from the Armies serving abroad, and in addition 159 from the ranks otherwise than of units of the Expeditionary Force. In the Territorial Force 6,085 second-lieutenants were gazetted in the period mentioned, but I cannot say how many of these came from units serving abroad.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why more men who joined in the early months of the War do not get commissions in preference to men who are only joining at the present time because they are compelled to join? They are being penalised for their patriotism.

It is not for me to give instructions, but it is for me to make suggestions, and I will certainly see that the point raised by my hon. Friend is not overlooked.

Territorial Force Depots

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what was the age on appointment of Colonel J. H. Fergusson, commanding the Home Counties depots at Purfleet, and on whose recommendation was he appointed, and when; what are the special qualifications of this officer to justify his employment, having regard to the age limit in the Service; and what is the distance between his place of residence at the Tilbury Hotel and the troops commanded by him?

I understand that the age of the officer referred to was seventy years, and that he was recommended by the military authorities of the Eastern Command. I do not think it is desirable to discuss by way of question and answer in this House the merits or demerits of particular officers. All appointments to third-line Territorial Force depots were of a temporary character.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the very moment when this gentleman of seventy years was appointed one of sixty, a most energetic and capable officer, was objected to on the ground of age limit?

I do not think that the age of anybody is a proper criterion by which to measure one's activities.

Soldiers' Letters (Censorship)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a practice has arisen among censors at the front or other military officers dealing with letters from officers and men to their relatives at home whereby these letters are destroyed if enclosed in an envelope which is now regarded as obsolete, and such envelope (marked as passed by the Censor) alone forwarded to an address with the following notice: "Letter destroyed; this pattern is obsolete and its use is forbidden"; will he state when and by what amended or other Regulation these envelopes were declared obsolete, and why; and have any and what steps been taken to call them in or to give notice to the Forces in the field that the contents of any such envelopes, if used, will be destroyed?

Notice was given early in October that after the 10th October no green envelope of the old pattern was to be issued or used. This Regulation has, I understand, been infringed in numerous instances, and in consequence correspondence sent in the obsolete pattern of envelope has been held up. The privilege of exemption from regimental censorship which the use of the green envelope, Army Form W 3078, confers is one which must not be abused, or it will become liable, as has been notified to the troops, to be suspended.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that a better and more humane way would have been to have sent on the enclosure by the Censor in a censored envelope, instead of putting in a memorandum that the enclosure had been destroyed; and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the last letter of a son to a widowed mother was destroyed in that way without any explanation?

I regret that incident more than I can say. I was not aware that this particular course had been adopted, but I will see if any alteration can be made, although I am afraid it is too late in nearly all cases as there are no more of the old pattern envelopes left.

Cambridge Medical Students

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that a special attempt is being made to enlist medical students of the first, second, and third years at Cambridge; that the supply of medical students has already been very seriously depleted; and that if this policy is continued the entire supply from Cambridge is liable to be cut off for three or four years; and whether, seeing that it is in the national interest during the War to have a large supply of young doctors in training and essential after the War to have no reduction of the medical profes- sion in the country to hope with epidemics which are frequently consequent on war, the Government will not only suggest to Lord Derby to cease this recruitment but take steps to increase the supply of students for the medical profession?

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Blackburn on 2nd November. I may add that since that date Lord Derby has seen the presidents of the Colleges of Surgeons and Physicians and others, and the present view is that first, second, and third-year students should enlist or qualify for commissions.

Typhoid Fever (Deaths Among Officers and Men)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he will state the number of cases of and deaths from typhoid fever and paratyphoid fever, showing separately inoculated and uninoculated, among officers and men of the British Army in the United Kingdom and in France and Belgium since 1st August, 1914, to the latest date for which such returns are available?

Distribution of Troops

asked whether a sum of £16,000, or thereabouts, is now being spent or is to be spent upon providing accommodation for soldiers in the Isle of Wight; and whether he is aware that there is accommodation at present in Ireland which could be made available at a much smaller cost?

The distribution of troops in the United Kingdom in time of war depends upon other considerations than available accommodation, and I am afraid that the hon. Member's suggestion would not meet the requirements of the case.

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that economy has no place in the Government policy?

I hope my hon. Friend will not put an interpretation upon my words which I do not think they really bear. There are other considerations which I am sure would be present in my hon. Friend's mind.

Apothecaries Hall of Ireland

asked whether the Apothecaries Hall of Ireland, being one of the medical licensing corporations of the United Kingdom, have recently complained to the War Office that they are hindered in their work of qualifying surgeons for the Army by the action of the General Medical Council, who have subjected them to a series of visitations, inspections, and inquisitions which have had the effect of frightening away a number of competent candidates who desired to get qualified to serve in the Royal Army Medical Corps; whether neither the Apothecaries Hall, of London, nor any other English or Scottish medical licensing corporations is being subjected to any visitation, inspection, or inquisition by the General Medical Council since the War broke out; whether, during the past seventeen years, the qualifying examinations of the Irish Apothecaries Hall have been inspected over thirty times by the General Medical Council and favourable reports made thereon on every occasion; whether, during the same period, no English or Scottish medical licensing corporation has been inspected more than three times by the General Medical Council; and, if so, whether the representatives elected by the Government have reported this treatment of Irish candidates?

Yes, Sir. The Apothecaries Hall of Ireland have recently made representations to the War Office with regard to the action of the General Medical Council. I have no information as to any effect which the action of the General Medical Council may have had in frightening away candidates who desire to get qualified to serve in the Royal Army Medical Corps, but it must be obvious that the Army Council have no authority over a body such as the General Medical Council which is responsible for the efficiency of civil medical education, and the Army Council have no information at all regarding the number of inspections which the General Medical Council consider it necessary to make of the various medical licensing corporations.

Home Chaplains

asked what salary or allowance, or both, is being paid to Home chaplains to the Army in England and Scotland; and whether, in view of the necessity for economy by all sections of the community, the fact that clergymen of the Established Church in Scotland continue to draw their stipends from their parishes during their absence with the Army is being taken into consideration?

The pay and allowances of temporary chaplains to the Forces amount to from 15s. to 16s. a day, according to circumstances. No inquiry is made as to other income possessed by applicants, nor is it considered practicable to enter into such questions.

Harness Contracts

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the contracts for harness for his Department that were placed in Canada were largely finished by the month of July; whether after that date and until quite recently orders for such goods have been placed in the United States of America; and whether there is any reason either of cheapness or delivery that leads his Department to place orders past our British and Canadian makers?

The Canadian contracts for harness were practically completed by the second week in August. No harness contract has been placed in the United States since June, at which time no deliveries had been received under the Canadian contracts. It is the policy of my Department to purchase whenever possible in the United Kingdom, and, when that is impossible, to place the order in Canada or one of the Dominions, provided that it can be fulfilled there economically and with the necessary dispatch.

Board of Education (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary (1) whether, in reference to the case of Mr. Michael O'Shea, national teacher, of Fanore, county Clare, he is aware that, following upon his dismissal by the manager, Mr. O'Shea has established a school of his own in the neighbourhood which has been attended by the majority of the children in the parish; whether the Board of Education is now endeavouring to prevent Mr. O'Shea keeping on this school; if so, whether they will state the grounds of their action, taking into consideration the whole circumstances of the case from the beginning; and (2) whether, in regard to the case of Mr. Michael O'Shea, national teacher, of Fanore, county Clare, the Board of Education will hold an independent inquiry into the circumstances of his dismissal; whether Mr. O'Shea was dismissed because he had married, in spite of the contrary advice of the manager of the school; and whether, if the grounds of his dismissal be found insufficient or unjust, Mr. O'Shea will be reinstated?

The Commissioners of National Education have instructed their chief inspector to hold an inquiry into the circumstances connected with the dismissal of Mr. O'Shea from his position as principal teacher of Fanore national school, and any further steps they may take in the matter will depend on the result of this inquiry.

Is this inquiry to be into the real pith of the matter, as it is a case of local tyranny?

Suppression of Book

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the proceedings recently instituted by the Commissioner of Police for the suppression of a book by Mr. D. H. Lawrence, entitled "The Rainbow"; whether the police were acting with the knowledge and authority of the Home Office; and whether the author of the book had any opportunity of replying to the charge made against him?

My attention has been drawn to the proceedings in question, which were taken by the police in pursuance of their ordinary duty. Home Office authorisation is not required in such a case. The publishers, and not the author, were the defendants, and they had the customary opportunity to produce such evidence as they considered necessary in their defence.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the author has some interest in the matter, seeing that this was three years' work, and that he had a direct interest in the profits of the work?

I do not think my hon. Friend is aware of what the proceedings are in a case such as this. The magistrate grants a summons which calls before him those who are the owners of what is seized. Those persons come before him and the matter is determined judicially. If the author has an interest in the matter no doubt it is in the idea, but nobody has seized the idea.

Is it not the fact that the book was ordered to be destroyed by a magistrate who did not even profess to have read it?

Is it not the case that the publishers expressed extreme regret at having been the means of publishing the book in question?

I believe that is so, and that so far from resisting the proceedings they said they thought it right that the order should be issued.

Is there any official Censor in these matters, or do these delicate questions depend on the judgment of one magistrate?

There is no official censor in these matters; I hope there never will be in literary matters.

School Attendance Prosecutions, Romsey, Hants

asked the Home Secretary whether he will inquire into the conviction at the Romsey county bench of Dennis Davis, of Horsebridge Road, Kingsomborne, Hants, a smallholder and also a thatcher, for the non-attendance at school of his stepson, William Baker; and whether, in view of his inability to get any other assistance for his farm work, the fact that the boy will be thirteen next March, that he is in the fourth standard at school, and that the rest of this man's family have regularly attended school, he can see his way to have the whole or a portion of the maximum fine of £l imposed on Davis remitted?

National Insurance Act

Tuberculosis Treatment (Scotland)

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether the three cases receiving domiciliary treatment under the insurance committee for the county of Renfrew in the year 1913 cost on an average £327 11s. 5d. each; whether it has been made known that the estimated deficit of this committee's tuberculosis treatment fund for the current year amounts to £3,678 10s. 11d.; whether the Treasury has been asked to pay one-half of this deficit and has agreed to do so; and whether the Treasury has received other requisitions to the same effect from other quarters and has agreed to make other such payments and, if so, to what extent?

For the reasons indicated in my reply to the hon. Member on the 9th instant, I cannot admit the validity of the calculation made in the first part of the question. The answer to the remaining parts of the question is in the affirmative, but I may remind the hon. Member that the moneys specifically allocated to the remuneration of doctors on the panel in respect of their responsibility for the domiciliary treatment of turberculosis insured persons cannot be applied in meeting expenditure sanctioned in accordance with Section 17 (2) and (3) of the National Insurance Act, 1911. I understand that expenditure under those Subsections has been sanctioned in thirteen cases in Scotland in addition to that mentioned in the question.

asked the Comptroller to the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether representations have reached him from medical men and others having practical experience of the working of the National Health Insurance Act, that the continuance or extension of the domiciliary treatment of consumption is fraught with danger to the public health when applied to thickly-populated areas where the tenement system of housing common in many towns in Scotland prevails; if so, whether these representations have been remitted for report to the Scottish Commissioners; and whether the opinion of these Commissioners on the point has been made public?

I have not seen any statement in the terms referred to in the question, nor do I think that any such general expression of a view adverse to domiciliary treatment is supported by the facts. The particular form of treatment most suitable in a given case must vary according to the condition and surroundings of the patient, but I may point out to the hon. Member that the Departmental Committee on Tuberculosis reported that in their opinion it is of primary importance to the lasting success of any scheme for dealing with tuberculosis that it should enlist the hearty co-operation and stimulate the interest of general medical practitioners. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative; the last part does not, therefore, arise.

Was not one of the inducements held out for the passage of the National Insurance Act that the domiciliary treatment of tuberculosis would come to an end?

No, that is not the ease. Domiciliary treatment and institutional treatment are equally parts of the sanatorium benefit.

Is not the hon. Member aware that when the question of domiciliary or institutional treatment is decided the welfare of the dependants of the victim has to be considered?

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether his attention has been drawn to a complaint by the insurance committee at Kilmarnock, stating that the cost to that committee of certain turberculosis cases had averaged over £63 each; whether the agreements in terms of which payments, on this scale have been made in various parts of the country resulted from arrangements arrived at without the consent of insurance committees; whether the payment of £63 per case referred to represents the figures for the year 1913, and thus exemplifies the working of the Act prior to the outbreak of war; whether the corresponding figure for Kilmarnock in respect of the year 1914 is now available; whether payments on this scale are to be regarded as of common occurrence throughout the country or as due to altogether exceptional circumstances prevailing in Kilmarnock and district; and, if so, whether the ordinary vital statistics applicable to the district afford any explanation of these circumstances?

I asked the hon. Member yesterday to postpone this question on the ground that I had only twenty-four hours' notice of it. He was under the impression that he had given a full week's notice of it. I am anxious not to have done any injustice to the hon. Member, but I have carefully verified the fact that this question appeared in the Parliamentary Papers for the first time on Tuesday, 16th, and was set down for answer on Wednesday, 17th. That naturally involved expense in telegraphing. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second, fifth, and sixth parts of the question, as I indicated in reply to a question by the hon. Member on the 9th instant, the arrangements in respect of the domiciliary treatment of tuberculosis form part of the general terms of remuneration of medical practitioners under the Acts. These terms were fully explained to the House and to the Advisory Committee by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Munitions on the 23rd October, 1912. The figure quoted by the hon. Member in the third part of the question, of which I must not be understood to accept the implications, relates to the year 1914, and the fourth part of the question accordingly does not arise.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that the present practice is departing considerably from what was desired by the present Minister of Munitions?

The present practice is based on the arrangement which my right hon. Friend sanctioned at the time.

Is any general effort being made to reduce expenses, particularly in Scotland, where they mount up to these very large figures?

As I have said once or twice, it is impossible to revise the arrangements sanctioned for the medical profession in view of the absorption of the medical profession in the War.

Questions

Blackwater (County Wexford) Fishermen

asked if the Admiralty can see their way to meeting the wishes of the fishermen at Blackwater, county Wexford?

The matter has been referred to the Vice-Admiral, Queens-town, who will deal with the application I direct.

Royal Dockyards and Naval Establishments (Pay of Clerical Staffs)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether a decision regarding the increase of pay applied for on the 12th April last by the clerical staffs of His Majesty's dockyards and naval establishments has yet been arrived at; and, if so, whether the terms can be communicated to the House; and, if a decision has not been reached, can a date be given when it may be expected, in view of the length of time the question has been under consideration and of the fact that every other low-paid class of employé has been granted increases during the past twelve months?

The Government have given this matter their most careful consideration, but they do not think that a case has been made out for throwing such heavy additional burdens on the taxpayer at the present time.

North Wales (Morning Mails)

asked the Postmaster-General what steps are being taken to secure the punctual delivery of the morning mails in that part of North Wales lying between Penrhyndendraeth and Dyffryn?

I hope shortly to be able to communicate the result of my inquiries to the hon. Member.

Foot-and-Mouth Disease

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture what progress has been made in obliterating the recent outbreak of foot-and-mouth distemper; and whether the precautions taken have prevented the spread of the disease?

I have nothing to add to the reply I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Tavistock.

Has the hon. Gentleman any idea of considerable recklessness on the part of certain individuals, and will they be proceeded against?

There is no doubt that foot-and-mouth disease existed for a considerable number of days, if not weeks, before being reported, but I think it was carelessness or ignorance rather than any deliberate desire to conceal the disease.

Income Tax (Repayment)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the delays which occur in his Department in repaying to the taxpayer money which has been wrongly exacted from him, these delays being as long as three years in some instances; and, if so, will he make some arrangement whereby his Department will repay as speedily as they insist on being paid?

I am not aware of any such delay as that suggested. In many cases the law allows the taxpayer a period of three years in which to prefer a claim for repayment, but this does not mean that the Board of Inland Revenue can delay repayment for that period.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider a case of delay for three years if I put it into his hands'!

If my hon. Friend will bring the particulars to me I will make further inquiries.

Message from the Lords

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to enable the services of Volunteers to be accepted in certain cases by His Majesty for purposes in connection with the present War, and to make provision in relation thereto." [Volunteer Bill [ Lords. ]

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

I wish to ask my right hon. Friend—and may I take this opportunity of congratulating him upon his accession to his present office in the Government, and I think I may fairly congratulate both him and the House—if he is able to tell us what will be the business for to-day and next week?

I thank my right hon. Friend for his congratulations to me but he is really congratulating himself on the absence of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Munitions.

The business to-day will be the Third Reading of the Appropriation Bill, and, if there be any time afterwards, the Indian Civil Service (Temporary Provisions) Bill, the Patents and Designs Act (Partial Suspension) Bill, and the Street Collections (Regulation) Scotland Bill.

On Monday and Tuesday next the Committee stage of the Finance Bill will be proceeded with.

As regards the rest of the week, the Prime Minister will make a statement on Monday.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any idea when the Volunteer Bill, which has been read a third time in the Lords to-day, will be taken in this House?

I am sorry that I cannot answer that question. The hon. Member had better put it to the Prime Minister.

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation— No. 2) Bill

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

At such a time as this it is fitting that we should exercise all the economy we can in our expenditure so that we shall minimise any waste or extravagance. I wish to call attention to expenditure in connection with the transport service, and I will divide what I have to say under two or three heads. The first is in connection with the requisition and use of tank steamers in the Government service. It is well known to the House that mistakes and errors have occurred. Some of the emergencies which have brought about these mistakes have been unforeseeable, but there are a great many mistakes which might have been avoided if the Government had taken into consultation those who could have given them good advice upon the subject with which they had to deal. I should like to call the attention of the House to the number of tank steamers which were uselessly tied up in connection with the proposal to use those vessels for the transport of troops instead of the transport of oil for which they were built. There were two vessels requisitioned by the Director of Transports on the 6th February. These vessels were ordered to proceed to the docks in London to be equipped as troop transports, after which they were ordered to Cowes, arriving there on the 29th March and 3rd April respectively. They were never used for the purpose for which they were equipped, and they remained in port until 24th June, when they returned to the docks in London to have their equipment dismantled and to be reconditioned as oil transports. One of then, on the 2nd August, and the other on the 21st July, sailed from London reconditioned for oil transport work.

At the time these vessels were requisitioned, it was well known to the Director of Transports that there was a great shortage of tank tonnage. If those two vessels afforded the only examples of mistakes of the kind, perhaps there would be less need to raise the question and for me to say anything; but, unfortunately, out of the limited number of tank vessels belonging to this country there were no less than eleven or thirteen which were in similar case. I have been unable to ascertain whether the number is eleven or thirteen; but if you take the number as twelve then the position, as far as the financial effect upon this country is concerned, would be as follows: There were really five voyages across the Atlantic lost by the waste of these vessels; but if only four voyages were lost the country had to pay no less than. £432,000 of profit to the foreigner to replace the vessels. The average rate paid for tonnage to replace those vessels was 46s. per ton, and the cost of running the vessels about 16s. per ton. Consequently, the loss of profit to this country was no lees than £432,000. That was in addition to what the Government spent upon the hiring of the vessels and the fitting of them for troops and with barrels. If those two items, the hiring and the fitting of them with barrels, be added together and you take the very lowest estimate of £382,000, you have a total loss to the nation in connection with this one transaction of no less a sum than £800,000. The loss of this very large sum might have been avoided if the Admiralty had realised that tank steamers only have a speed of from 9 to 11 knots an hour, and consequently are unsuitable vessels for the transport of troops.

I cannot, of course, give the House too many details of mistakes that have been made, but I must give one or two further examples in order to justify the suggestions which I shall make to the House at the end of my speech. A tank steamer has been kept at the Port of Halifax laden with oil, which, to my knowledge, has been there for four months at a time, and possibly longer. It has been represented to the Admiralty that at a time when tank-steamer tonnage is exceedingly scarce it is not reasonable and it is wasteful to keep steamers lying in port as storage. It is said by some, "Oh, but we must have oil at various parts of the world ready for the Navy." In the case of Halifax, so anxious have owners of tonnage been that tonnage should be released to fulfil their contracts, that they have offered to the Government the use of a storage tank on shore, which offer has been refused by the Government on the ground that they want the oil in a boat which can be ready to move should by any chance the Germans get across the Atlantic into the neighbourhood of Halifax. It seems to those who have something to do with the handling of oil that they could bunker from a shore tank with equal rapidity, and that the contingency is so remote that, when the stress is so great and the strain is so great on the tonnage, the Admiralty might swallow their convictions on that point and make use of the storage offered to them and liberate that tank steamer. Then, again, in the case of Dover I understand that a vessel has been kept there for a very long time. I think she arrived there in the month of March, and has been there ever since with a cargo of oil. The only voyage she has made has been across to France and back again. She is a new boat and cost a large sum of money, and there she has been lying as a storage hulk.

I know quite well that it is very convenient to have a boat in a harbour like Dover and to move her alongside the battleship. Small vessels no doubt can move alongside the tank steamer easily, but they may not want to move the battleship. They may prefer that the tank steamer should move to her, but surely at a time like this, when tonnage is so scarce, we might devise some means of overcoming such a small difficulty. In many ports of the world with which I am acquainted we bunker steamers at great distances from the port by means of tanks on shore and under-sea pipe lines. We have a pipe line over a mile long, a 6-inch under-sea pipe which takes the oil from the tank out to water at a depth of 40 feet. At the end of the pipe line there is a flexible hose, and it is connected with a buoy by chain. When the steamer comes in to be bunkered, the flexible hose is hauled up and connected with the steamer, and we can bunker any quantity of oil in a few hours. It does seem to me that in some places where we are keeping these tank steamers lying as storage we might in two months build a tank, have a pipe line and a flexible hose, and bunker men-of-war by this apparatus and release the tank steamers. It would cost the country a great deal less than the cost of hiring these vessels and letting them lie there. It seems to me that if the best use were made of the tank tonnage available, two-thirds of the tonnage the Admiralty are now using would do the work, and in this I am really allowing a large margin for keeping oil in steamers as storage in such places as may be considered essential. There are, no doubt, places where it may be essential that some oil should be kept in a steamer which could go at once to any point. That I grant, but over and above that there are places undoubtedly where by building some tanks and having under-sea pipe lines we need not keep vessels tied up.

4.0 P.M.

At such a time, when tank tonnage is so valuable and scarce, it seems extraordinary that our Government should have allowed foreigners to build two tank steamers in this country and let them go. A Norwegian and a Dutch vessel have been completed and allowed to go since the War began. When battleships were building in this country for foreign Powers and war has broken out, we have taken possession of them and paid for them. There is no reason, so far as I am aware, why they should not have done exactly the same thing with tank steamers. Look at what has happened. One of these two tank steamers has in the last few weeks been chartered to our French Allies, who have had to pay no less than 140s. per ton for the vessel for one trip across the Atlantic, the usual rate being under 20s. per ton.

To pass from that, I will give one or two examples of delays that have occurred in connection with requisitioned vessels. At a time when tonnage is so scarce this is an important matter. The best use has undoubtedly not been made of the tonnage available. We know there was great delay and congestion in the ports of London and Liverpool at the beginning of the War, and the delay was very largely brought about by want of foresight and business organisation, as a result of which cargoes of sugar and other commodities belonging to Government were piled up on the quays, while other vessels were unable to get their cargoes discharged and were kept waiting six weeks instead of six days. We all know difficulties existed, but by proper business-like organisation they could have been overcome much sooner than they were, and if there had been proper knowledge displayed cargoes would not have been accumulated at unsuitable spots. Again, there have been cases of steamers being kept waiting for orders. There was a case the other day of a, steamer at Sabine. It was an oil tanker, and she lay there for several days, after her arrival, waiting for orders to load. That steamer had been requisitioned by the Government at great expense, and yet all this unnecessary delay. Another steamer sent out in ballast to a nitrate port found no orders waiting for her, and was idle for over a week. These examples could be multiplied a hundredfold.

There is great waste going on in sending unsuitable tonnage for certain purposes. For instance, a fine passenger steamer, carrying 200 passengers, the accommodation having been booked and she being ready to load on the Clyde, was taken by the Admiralty and sent out in ballast to Chili. She was an unsuitable boat for the purpose, burning considerably more fuel than an ordinary cargo steamer, and she was sent the whole distance in ballast. Another vessel engaged in the ore trade, was sent in ballast the whole way from Spain to a nitrate port to get a load of nitrate. She, too, was an unsuitable vessel, too small for the trade. We had these vessels going out in ballast at a time when we knew that the Argentine railways were hungering for coal, and were being compelled to pay high freights for the few weeks available. If we had had practical people managing this business, and if these people had known the needs of the Admiralty in advance, they could have laid out the tonnage in such a way as to avoid this wasteful extravagance.

Recently the Board of Agriculture suddenly plunged into a speculation in nitrate. It is understood they have bought a very considerable quantity. I was refused information on the point in the House, but I believe the purchase was 50,000 tons of 95 per cent. nitrate of soda for fertilisers. I speak of this in connection with tonnage, because it has an important bearing on the supply of tonnage. In order to make clear my point I should say that this was an unnecessary speculation; otherwise it might be said the purchase was necessary in order that the food supply of the people of these islands might be kept up and even increased. Now the figures in connection with the article in which this speculation was made, are as follows: On the 31st October, 1914, there were 72,000 tons of nitrate in stock in this country. In the last six months, May to October, of the last three years, the imports of the article into this country have been: in 1913, 56,000 tons; in 1914, 90,000 tons; and 1915—this year—185,000 tons. On the top of that the Government have plunged into a speculation in nitrate of soda for fertilising purposes, in order, presumably, to sell it to farmers at less than cost price. Can an operation of this character, even if it could be justified in ordinary circumstances, be justified at a period when tonnage is so scarce? As far as I understand, the Government have not yet got any tonnage for it, and we are faced, not only with the present scarcity of tonnage, but with an aggravation through an absolutely unnecessary operation on the part of the Government in buying this article.

The nitrate has been bought at a time when tonnage is wanted for the Argentine and Australian wheat crops. The purchases have been made for delivery on the Chilian coast to extend from November to March, and these are the very months when tonnage is wanted for Argentine wheat. It may be said, "You do not know the need for this large quantity of nitrate, and it may be the case that farmers are likely to find themselves short of the article." I have asked for information as to the stocks in this country. I have had the greatest difficulty in getting it. The Government have placed every impediment in the way of ascertaining the facts, but I have, fortunately, been able to obtain them. The stock on the 31st October, 1914, amounted to 72,000 tons, and this year it amounts to 94,000 tons, and on the top of that fact the Government have, without due consideration as I think, gone into this speculation. This may be deemed to be but a small point in connection with the question of tonnage, but it is by no means irrelevant. It has, in fact, a very strong and important bearing on the question of the supply of tonnage for the carriage of commodities; and while such an operation may or may not be justified in ordinary times, it certainly is not, in my opinion, justified in a period when we should make the very best possible use of the tonnage at our disposal.

Let the House consider what it means. A steamer, such as is chartered for nitrate, could make three voyages from America, carrying three cargoes of foodstuffs, for one voyage from Chile. It could carry three cargoes, or 15,000 tons of wheat, from America in the time it takes to bring 5,000 tons of nitrates from Chile. That shows the necessity for the Government to give consideration to the question of making a better use of our tonnage. Would it not be desirable, in dealing with this matter, to confine our tonnage more or less to short voyages, and to let foreigners undertake the very long voyages? Would it not be better to use our tonnage for the shorter voyages, so as to bring to this country more cargoes of wheat, cotton, maize, and other commodities which we require?

It may be said it is all very well to make this complaint, but what is your practical suggestion? My suggestion would be this: We have at the present moment a Transport Department at the Admiralty, and we have attached to that Department an Advisory Committee of three shipowners. I have not one single word to say against that committee. The members are able men. who understand the business of shipowners thoroughly well, but they are only an advisory committee: they are not above the Transport Department, which is not even master in its own house. The Transport Department is simply the servant of the Board of Admiralty, which gives it its orders at short notice. It is preremptorily told to provide so many ships for a certain job at once. I happened to be there the other day, and I was told they had orders for six steamers, which were wanted at once for a certain purpose. That is not the way in which ordinary men manage their businesses and their steamers. It is quite true that emergencies may arise, and that things may have to be done in a hurry, but surely everything is not a matter of emergency in the Admiralty. I suggest you should give the Transport Department, instead of this Advisory Committee, which holds an impotent position, a committee which would have real power. I would make it a committee consisting of three shipowners—two of them concerned with cargo ships—and two merchants.

I do not think a committee of shipowners alone is entirely adequate to deal with the situation. There are merchants who know better than shipowners what the requirements are, and who would know what is absolutely essential in certain cases, and I therefore suggest that two merchants be added to the three shipowners to form this committee. The committee should be given more power than the present Advisory Committee possesses over the Transport Department. Indeed, that Department should be under the control of the Committee, instead of the latter body being merely an advisory body. I suggest, further, that the Admiralty be asked to give full information as far as it can, without danger of anything leaking out to the enemy, to this committee as to its requirements. There is no reason on earth why the Government should not know months ahead what it is going to want in connection with oil, coal, sugar and nitrate, and also in connection with the proposed chartering of tonnage for the Australian wheat crop, which is shortly to come up. There must be considerable knowledge in the Admiralty as to what their requirements are going to be, and if these things were known to this committee, instead of vessels being sent out in ballast to fetch nitrate, the committee could so arrange matters that the ships would take coal to Rio, Buenos Ayres, and other ports on the way out, and thus avoid the great waste that is now incurred.

The fact has been that we have not made the best use in the past of the vessels that have been available. Had we done so, we should have been able to overcome many difficulties, and freights would not have been abnormally inflated, as they have been, solely through lack of management. It is not true that the rise in freights has been due to a corner on the part of shipowners; it has been caused by merchants wanting ships running after the shipowners. My firm recently was three weeks trying to get a vessel for a certain freight, and we did not care within 10s. a ton what we paid so long as we got it. That is what has been occurring in other quarters. Had the best use been made of the ships available we should not have had such high freights. I therefore do urge upon the Government the necessity for some reformation in connection with the Transport Department of the Admiralty. I make no complaint of the officials. I do not think they are always altogether sympathetic. They do not sometimes realise the difficulties which are apparent to other people. Nevertheless, they do their work as well as they are able under the circumstances. If they had a committee of shipowners and merchants over them—a committee with real power to direct matters, under, of course, the instructions of the Admiralty, they could make good use of the tonnage available with far greater advantage to the country than at present.

Perhaps the hon. Baronet will allow me to reply at once to the points he made with regard to the importation of nitrates for agricultural purposes. I do not propose to say a word on the question of freights. That is a matter for the Admiralty. The question whether the nitrates which farmers will require next spring shall be imported in freights secured by the Admiralty, is one which has not yet been settled. On the point, however, whether the farmers will need nitrates, and whether special steps are necessary to enable them to obtain them, I should like to say a few words. The total amount of nitrates of agricultural quality for agricultural purposes, which is either in this country, or on passage to it, or has been purchased by importers, is very nearly 30,000 tons, and that is all. The ordinary consumption of nitrate of soda for agricul- tural purposes in Great Britain is something like 100,000 tons a year, and, therefore, there is likely to be a very considerable shortage. A shortage of what is so essential as a fertiliser would be a really serious thing for our food production next year, which is with all respect a matter which the Government has rather seriously to think about. There are not, so far as we know, ships available. I quite agree with the hon. Baronet in that. Therefore it was, and in my opinion is, necessary to make some quite definite arrangements for securing, at any rate, some approximation to the normal supply of nitrate of soda, if we can, for the farmers by some sort of special arrangement.

It is true that the other day I thought it right not to tell him the amount of nitrate that had been purchased, for this reason, which I am sure that as a business man he will appreciate; if I had named a large amount holders of nitrate, who may possibly now be inclined to keep it for agricultural purposes, would say to themselves, "Oh, the Government will have plenty for the fanners, let us sell ours for munition purposes." In that way we should have lost what otherwise the farmers would have obtained, whereas, if I had only named a small quantity the holders of nitrates in Chile would have said, "They are bound to want more than that," and the price would have been hardened and put up against us. Whenever you have made a really definite arrangement with merchants, importers, and distributors, any exact statement of the quantity secured, or of the method taken to import and deal with it, is almost certain to have the bad effect of either increasing the price you have to pay or making more difficult the means you are going to take to deal with it. That is the only reason why, in the interests of the public of this country, I did not make a statement as to the amount that had been obtained. Now that the hon. Baronet has called attention to it, I may say quite clearly that we have obtained a certain amount, that we think it is absolutely essential to obtain it, owing to the absolutely definitely ascertained enormous shortage for use by the farmers. I believe it will have been shown to be really in the interests of the country to make some special effort to obtain for the farmers some amount, at any rate, approximating to the quantity they will want and a quantity of which they can make very good use in increasing the crops next year.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman this question? The 100,000 tons of nitrate which he mentioned is for the whole year. The quantity of which he is speaking is for the requirements of the farmers for two or three months. Is it necessary to assume, because there is a shortage for the two or three months, that there must of necessity be a shortage for the whole year?

Yes, because nitrate is not used steadily in equal quantities all through the year. It is used almost wholly as a spring dressing, as the hon. Baronet no doubt knows. Therefore, the months you have to think about are the months from January to April, which is the time when nitrate is required, and the few months before that when the farmer buys it. That being the nature of the trade, the demand and the supply have to be concentrated in three or four months. It was, and it is the fact, that the normal 100,000 tons are consumed just in these spring months, and it was necessary for us to take steps to supply the deficiency in that time. You could not regard it as a matter that could be spread over the whole year.

I believe that but for the wasteful expenditure in connection with the Navy and the Army we should have had no necessity to consider the Appropriation Bill now under discussion until early in the year 1916. The House provided only two months ago, under a previous Appropriation Bill, £255,000,000, and to be asked now, within two months, to provide the gigantic sum of £400,000,000 is, indeed, an alarming experience, and tends to show that the millions which have been drawn from the taxpayers of this country are being expended in the most lavish fashion, and that the taxpayers are not getting by any means value for their money. In another place last week statements were made as to the steps the Government, both in the Admiralty and the War Office, proposed to take to secure more effective supervision of Army and Navy expenditure. I felt that as this House has the exclusive control of finance that we certainly ought to insist upon having here definite statements both from the representatives of the Army and the Navy upon this important question. I am bound to say that there was no reluctance on the part of the representatives of those Services in this House to give those statements, and it was only the unfor- tunate ending of the Debate on Wednesday last by the Adjournment of the House that prevented them from utilising that opportunity.

I regret that the First Lord of the Admiralty on the next night made no reference whatever to the necessity of trying to secure better value for our money in naval expenditure. There are four vital needs for the successful prosecution of this War, namely, men, munitions, money, and brains. It is only by mobilising and organising all the best brains of the country, especially those of business men with knowledge and experience, that we can hope to stop this dangerous waste of our financial resources. An ex-Secretary of State for War (Lord Midleton) stated in another place that in his judgment a saving of £250,000 per day could be effected—that is, a saving of £1,000,000 in every four days—if we had proper business management. He stated that in his opinion whereas we were only getting 15s. of value for every £l expended, the Germans were getting £l in value for every 15s. expended. Every one will agree that so far as the commandeering of shipping goes that the needs of the Army and Navy in the War must be fully met, with an ample margin, but it is startling to find that they have commandeered 30 per cent. of our huge mercantile marine, or 6,000,000 tons of shipping. The effect of that has been most serious. Expert shipping men tell me that if the ships were properly handled their carrying capacity could be so far increased that about 4,000,000 tons properly managed would do all the work which is needed, and would send back into the mercantile marine 2,000,000 tons of shipping, which would be an enormous help towards reducing freights, reducing the cost of the food of the people of this country, increasing the amount of goods delivered here as raw materials for our manufactures, and also of increasing our export trade and lessening the financial strain.

As an example of the effect of the commandeering of this huge amount of shipping, including practically all the coal-carrying steamers which we possess, the normal freight from the Tyne to London went up from 3s. to 17s. Then, when the Government made a special effort to help us out of our difficulties, the figure receded to 7s. 6d. For some reason or other they have been helping less in that trade, and the figure has now gone back to 13s. 6d. What does that mean? It means that for all the sea-borne coal used in London, whether by manufacturers or householders, they have to pay an extra 40s. per ton for it, owing to the increased cost of transport. Take again the freights of iron ore from Spain to our iron and steel producing districts like Middlesbro'. The Government must have a certain hematite iron. The freights from Bilbao were 4s. 6d. per ton, but are now 17s. a ton. The Government were bringing back steamers that had taken cargoes of coal from Cardiff to Bordeaux and other ports. They should have allowed them to stop at Bilbao to bring back iron ore. Now, as in the case of coal boats, they have ceased to give us those boats. Vessels are now coming past Bilbao empty to Cardiff, and the freights from Bilbao have gone up to 17s. a ton. It takes two tons of that ore to produce a ton of hematite. The increase of cost per ton the Government are paying for their hematite is 25s. The same applies to freights for coal in the Eastern Mediterranean. When the War began it was 7s. 6d. to Port Said. To-day it is 50s. from Cardiff and 53s. 6d. from Newcastle. That means that the Government still have to pay a very large increase there. The Duke of Devonshire stated in another place that a Commission of Inquiry as to the working of transport in the Eastern Mediterranean has gone out, and not before it was time. I cannot imagine why it was not sent out six months ago. It is common knowledge that transports loaded in Egyptian ports were sent to the Dardanelles, but they had been so improperly loaded that they had to be sent back to Egypt to be unloaded, then reloaded properly and sent across again. We do not know what the loss of precious weeks which took place through that fatal blundering might have meant. It might have meant that if that blunder had not been made we might have been in possession of Constantinople to-day.

I recognise that at last the Admiralty show signs of an earnest endeavour to improve matters. They are submitting their weekly expenditure to the Treasury. They have appointed a new Licensing Committee to license steamers trading between foreign ports. That is a very doubtful proceeding. We have enjoyed prosperity largely because we have had the vast majority of the carrying trade of the world. Now nations like America and other neutral nations will build up a mer- cantile marine, and when we want to get that trade back we may find we shall not be able to do so. My hon. Friend behind me (Sir A. Williamson) referred to the Committee of three expert shipowners. They were sent as an Advisory Committee to the Admiralty to assist in controlling and directing this 6,000,000 of tonnage; but I know, what my hon. Friend does not know, that they have had no power. They have been able to advise, but they have had no executive power; and really this huge amount of mercantile marine of 6,000,000 tons is in the hands of very able Civil servants. We ought to secure without delay that executive control and direction shall be given of this huge fleet of commandeered ships to shipping experts, and if we do that millions of pounds of the taxpayers' money can be saved. The Admiralty desire improved organisation, and I hope they will create one supreme authoritative board, manned by shipping experts, taking instructions from the fighting department as to their requirements, but having really efficient power.

Then with regard to Army expenditure we require greater supervision of the making of contracts by business men. Sir George Gibb was sent to the War Office to supervise and control contracts, and took some valuable assistants with him; but, unfortunately, he is no longer there, and the controlling of contracts has drifted back into the old hands. I make no reflections upon the men who are doing their best at the War Office in the Contracting Department, but they are quite unequal to coping with the present situation, and what we need there is a largely increased staff of the best commercial men in the country to secure that the taxpayer is getting some approach to value for his money. Take the question of khaki. They over-bought khaki and they had the mills running night and day at high pressure. They forced up the prices of the materials of which the khaki was made, and it was only when they discovered that they had khaki in stock sufficient to make 15,000,000 uniforms that they ceased their orders, and now the mills are not fully employed, indeed, hundreds of their hands are out of employment. I need not refer to the unsuitable sites which have been selected for camps or the mistakes which have been made in securing cheap transport to and from them. I gave one case last week of a camp where the railway company had offered to put in a double track line for £10,000. It was rejected, and they have transported at a much greater cost by road and utterly destroyed miles and miles of splendid highway which will cost £100,000 to restore. One example is enough. I should like my right hon. Friend to have the camp contractors' prices very carefully considered. In some camps I have visited they have told me they can buy potatoes and other local products much cheaper and of better quality than they can get them from the contractor; but they were prevented by the War Office from taking advantage of such opportunities. I am afraid there is still great waste of food in connection with same of our camps. I am told that at the week-ends, when a great many men are away on leave, the same supplies of food are sent in by the contractors as though they were still in camp over the week-end. The same applies to hospitals. Let my hon. Friend investigate the Liverpool Hospital and he will find that the number of beds varies by 200 inmates per day, and the same supplies come in whether the inmates are 200 less in number or 200 more. There is no question to my mind that we urgently need a number of reliable inspectors to visit periodically every camp in the country in order to try to prevent waste of food, in order to supervise contractors' prices by having some regard for the local cost of the supplies they need, and otherwise to prevent this great waste.

We are told by the Labour Members Report that the same thing goes on at the front; that 12 ozs. per day of bully beef is an excessive allowance, that no reduction in the supply is made on account of men who are sick or on account of casualties, and therefore they saw thousands of tins of bully beef which were thrown on one side and being wasted. The same is true of millions of cartridges for their rifles. I hope that is really not a correct statement; but, still, whether at home or abroad, we know there must be waste in time of this great War, with everyone working at high pressure; but having regard to our enormous expenditure every day, it is urgently necessary that every possible step should be taken by bringing in the services of the best and most active business men in the country in the various departments, to lessen that waste to the smallest possible extent. I believe a small committee of business men to pass in review Army expenditure week by week might help greatly to reduce its cost. With regard to the Ministry of Munitions all we can say is that time is money and that as we urgently needed an increased output of munitions without a day's delay we had to get it almost rgeardless of cost But there is one mistake that the Ministry of Munitions did not make. They have secured the services and co-operation of many of the ablest business men in the country in the engineering trade, and in that way it pays us, even though we must recognise that mistakes are also being made, and that the cost of what we are getting is extravagantly high in some cases. But is the cost of what we are getting in the shape of munitions from America not extravagantly high? I question whether we get 10s. of value for every £ that we have to pay to America for munitions of war, and therefore, at any rate, I believe that in the extra production that the Ministry of Munitions is getting he is doing much better for us than that. There can be no difference of opinion as to the urgent need there is by every possible means to get the best value for our money and to reduce the cost of this War. In saying what I have said, I do not wish to reflect on any member of the Government or on the administration of any public servant we employ. I recognise that the circumstances of the moment are so difficult, and the increase of work in every Department of the State that has to do with the War has so enormously increased that we cannot expect those results that we can get in normal times. But I believe that if the officials in the Departments—if the military men would only put their preconceived ideas on one side and welcome the advent and assistance of the able business men of the country who are only too ready to come forward and give their free services to the nation, great saving would be effected.

There is no doubt as to the importance of the subject that has just been brought before the House with regard to the shortage of ships. The real reason why the shortage of ships has occurred and rates have run up and food has run up is because we had to take such an enormous amount of shipping for the Navy to do man-of-war work. I do not think this is quite the time to enter into controversies as to the reasons. We ought to do our best to help to finish the War, and not find out too much about why certain circumstances have occurred. What I want particularly to bring to the notice of the House is a question referred to in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Churchill) the other night. I do not want to raise any controversies. I do not want to make any recriminations, as this is no time for wrangling on any subject we might consider worth speaking about. I want to mention facts principally with a view to preventing the recurrence of disasters such as we have already suffered. The matter is national It is not a personal matter or I should not intrude myself upon the House. It is a question connected with the composition of the Board of Admiralty. It is a point that I feel most interested in because it is one on which I resigned my seat on the Board as far back as 1888. The real question was this: The Board of Admiralty was originally instituted as a Board, the words being, "responsible to King and Parliament as a Board." But in 1869 Mr. Gladstone did away with the position of the Board as a Board. The real reason was that the Naval Estimates, naturally, every year increased. Naval Estimates are only a rate of insurance. As our trade and commerce increased it was only natural that we should increase the Naval Estimates. But it was thought at that time that the Naval Estimates were too high. No increase was given, and as the Sea Lords objected to the civilian control in reducing the Naval Estimates, Mr. Gladstone brought forward an Order in Council in 1869 which did away with the collective responsibility of the Board.

With regard to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Churchill), I wish it to be clearly understood that although there was grave criticism—I think I was amongst the critics—of the way in which he personally conducted questions of strategy, tactical questions, etc., he was quite within his rights in whatever he did in that way. I hold that the old principle of the collective responsibility of the Board was safer for the State, far more economical, never produced panic, and was better in every way. In the remarks I make now I am not finding fault with what the right hon. Gentleman did, but I am finding fault with the power which was given him to do it, which I think was altogether and entirely wrong. What was the result of doing away with the collective responsibility? Before the Order in Council of 1869 the Sea Lords objected to this retrenchment and reduction in the Naval Estimates, and objected to their not being increased. What was the result? There was, after a certain number of years, a panic in the country. I think, during my career, there have been five panics, and I was instrumental in getting up some of them. I was perfectly justified. It was only letting the public know the truth. Everyone knows that if you buy in a panic you buy at the highest price and do not always get value for it.

The hon. Member (Sir J. Walton) has just been showing that it is more or less the result of panic that we are wasting money now. It is through want of precaution and want of preparation beforehand. When you cannot get money, when the public does not know the truth, and when the experts are not in a position to say what they want and why they want it, you have these panics. The hon. Member has complained about the lack of shipping. We have had to take up thousands of ships. We have had to build hundreds of ships, and we have had to join hundreds of men. That was, more or less, if not entirely, the result of one-man power, instead of having a Board. If you had had a Board, these representations would have been made by the Board, and you would not have been in a state of panic, and you would not have been in a state of spending enormous sums of money to get what you would have got much cheaper if spread over a few years. In other words, when your rate of insurance has to be increased owing to your property having been increased, the expenditure ought to extend over a certain number of years, and not suddenly be brought down in a great panic.

Let me refer again to the question of the Board of Admiralty. There is no industry, there is no institution—in fact, there is nothing we can refer to in the world—that has such multitudinous business as the Board of Admiralty. It is an immense bureau. Its duties are terrific. I will mention some of them. You have shipbuilding, and you have to maintain the Fleet. In other words, conducting those two departments of activity means that you are a great shipbuilding company and that you are running, we will say, the P. and O. Company, which is quite a different art of administration. You have your contracts, which are enormous, the pay of the men, victualling, pensions, discipline, naval law, dockyards, and the foreign stations. Every big industry in this country or elsewhere is run by a board, and the board, as a board, makes statements and adopts policies. Although it may have its president or its chairman, the concern is run by the board. You cannot really do the thing in any other way; but so far as our Admiralty is concerned, in consequence of the Order in Council of 1869, the Board of Admiralty has been done away with altogether. I am not singular in this view. I resigned on it in 1888. There is no distinguished admiral in the Service who has not over and over again called attention to the fact that doing away with the Board must result in panic, and if you have panics you cannot have proper preparation for war. I hope when I pursue my remarks a little further I shall be able to show the House how I prove my case in view of the speech delivered by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee (Mr. Churchill). The Navy is not like the Army. The Navy is always on active service. The late First Lord on his own showing, showed that he had interfered with naval discipline and strategy. I maintain that strategy and tactics have nothing whatever to do with the First Lord. His business is that of policy. He should lay down the policy that the Cabinet determines to carry out. It is his business to lay that policy before the Board, and if it is a policy that requires armed force, the Board should have been in the position or should have been placed in the position to say if they could carry out the policy with an armed force, and how and when they could carry out the policy with an armed force.

I now come to the question of Antwerp, and I differ in that from what the right hon. Gentleman told the House, when he said that the Belgians were satisfied. I have been over there, and I have seen high authorities there, and they all say it was a lamentable expedition. They all say they lost 20,000 men—

I understood that the Noble Lord was not going into these matters. I do not know whether they are connected with this Bill in any way. Certainly they relate to the past. This Bill is for the future. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, as the Noble Lord will remember, was not made upon this Bill.

With great respect, I thought that upon this Bill we could speak on anything.

Oh, dear no, that is a great mistake. This Bill relates to the £400,000,000 which is now going to be voted for the purpose of carrying on the War. Anything to do with the future of the Army or the Navy, or matters intimately connected with the War operations would be relevant. I fail to see that the matters now being raised by the Noble Lord would be relevant.

Then, according to your ruling, I cannot bring up the question of the Board of Admiralty having been done away with, and that this expenditure is due in part to the Board of Admiralty being done away with under the Order in Council of 1869. That is what I am trying to do.

If the Noble Lord can suggest that the Board of Admiralty ought to be changed, and that their responsibility ought to be placed upon the whole Board, instead of being placed upon the First Lord, which I understand is his contention, he will be entitled to contend that, and to say that the expenditure would not be so great if his policy were carried out. What I objected to was the raising of controversial topics in regard to a matter which is past, especially in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman who is particularly responsible.

I do not see how I can carry on my remarks. I was not going to be controversial. I was simply going to take what was said by the right hon. Gentleman, and to prove that the Board of Admiralty had nothing to do with these affairs. I thought that would have been correct in regard to the future. However, the position, under your ruling, will be rather difficult, and perhaps I had better defer my remarks to another time, more particularly as you point out that the right hon. Gentleman is not here, a circumstance which I regret. I was not going to attack the right hon. Gentleman. I made that perfectly clear to the House, for I said he was perfectly within his rights in doing what he did. With your permission I will defer my remarks.

I do not propose to follow the hon. Members who have preceded me, either in the subjects they have discussed or in the length of time they have occupied. Hon. Members will see that those speeches have had a marked effect upon the House. The subject which I have to touch upon can be readily dealt with. It is to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Admiralty (Dr. Macnamara) to the commandeering of trawlers upon the East Coast of Scotland, and particularly in the Granton district, by the Admiralty. The demands of the Admiralty have been so great that there are very few of these trawlers left to do the fishing there. The fish that are caught in that particular part of the East of Scotland supply the markets of the West of Scotland, and it is a matter of the greatest importance to my Constituents and the West of Scotland that there should not be this interference with the fishing there. We all agree that the demands of the Admiralty for shipping must be paramount, and nothing must be allowed to stand in the way of the wants of the Admiralty being supplied. My case rests upon the fact that the right hon. Gentleman and his Department have two alternative courses to taking these trawlers from the East Coast of Scotland. The first alternative is the taking of the small coasting trader type of ship, none of which have yet been commandeered by his Department. These particular traders are at the present moment, and have since the War began, making very large sums of money, and they could well afford to spare one or two of their ships for the purpose of the Admiralty. Another and a stronger alternative is this: There is a type of fishing boat known as drifters, of which there are hundreds lying around the coast of Scotland, either at anchor or upon the hard, as the seamen term it. These have not been called upon by the Admiralty to any extent to do the work which they desire the trawlers to do.

As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, a great deal of the work that has to be done is of a very simple nature, such as boom guarding at the various ports, and the drifter type of vessel is quite as good for that purpose as the trawler. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to see whether he cannot substitute one or other of these types of vessel for the trawler. I have statistics of the fishing of one of these trawlers from the port of Granton during the month of August last. These statistics show that 159,000 lbs. of fish were sold in the Glasgow fish market from one single ship, and it was sold at the price of only 2d. a lb. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not gauge the quality of the fish from the price at which it was sold. These facts show the urgent necessity for the preservation of this particular fishing ground and this particular type of vessel for the supply of cheap food to Glasgow and the West of Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman knows well, none better, the kind of work that has been done for his Department by that part of the country, and he should not deprive them of this particular class of food. I hope he will give the matter consideration.

5.0 P.M.

I wish to add my testimony to the remarks of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. I am in close touch with Grimsby, the premier fishing port of the Kingdom, and I find that the trawler owners there do not complain at all about the sacrifices which they have been called upon to make. They have been called upon to supply to the Admiralty all the best of their fishing vessels. Every new vessel which comes to hand—and they are coming every week, the very finest fishing vessels afloat—are immediately taken over by the Admiralty. These vessels are the class which are built purposely for fishing at Iceland. Small vessels are not available for that purpose, on account of their inability to carry the necessary amount of coal for the voyage. Therefore, the only vessels which are left to carry on the fishing industry of Grimsby are the smaller and older vessels which are found to be no use for Admiralty purposes. These vessels, on an average, will catch at the Dogger Bank five or six tons of fish per voyage, while one of the modern vessels, which could go out to Iceland, would catch on an average from fifty to seventy-five tons of fish in one trip. A great deal has been said, and questions have been asked, about the cost of living. I would like to point out that this fishing is a most valuable source of supply of food for the people. It is a supply which has not to be bought. You have nothing to do but to build vessels and send them out to sweep the seas. You pay nothing for it, but you do provide very important food for the people. It is manifest that if the Admiralty could see their way to allow, we will say, one out of every three or four of these large vessels that go to Iceland to go fishing, it would materially increase the food supply of the country, and no doubt it would bring down the price of fish and make a greater abundance of food.

Lately the Admiralty have been good enough to accede to the request of the owners to allow these large vessels to make one or two trips. In fact, I believe that at the present time they are allowed to go fishing for three weeks. In many cases that means only one voyage. What I desire to ask the Admiralty is this: Whether they cannot allow, say, one out of every third or fourth vessel that comes to these places to go permanently fishing to Iceland, because at the present time the price of fish is prohibitive to a great many people, and if the Admiralty could see their way clearly to allow a few of these large vessels, which are capable of catching in the same time as much fish as ten of the smaller vessels, to be used altogether for fishing, they will increase the food supply very materially. The owners have loyally supported the Admiralty, and have put no obstacles in the way of their taking vessels. They have rendered very valuable services, the men being ready to volunteer to man these vessels for mine-sweeping and other purposes, but as these vessels are being built as fast as it is possible to build them, and are being delivered new in the Humber every week, the owners ask the Admiralty to concede this small point, which would be of great advantage to the country.

I will first take the last point which has been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division of Glasgow (Mr. Watt) and the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Tickler) as to the requisition of trawlers and drifters for the necessary conduct of the War. As regards that, of course all of us would naturally very much prefer to see these trawlers and drifters following their peaceful, ordinary and most useful avocations, but war is war, and the dislocation of industries, here and elsewhere, is inevitable. My hon. Friends will, I am sure, agree that national defence must be the paramount consideration, and the paramount consideration in deciding the type and the numbers of vessels which are taken. Subject to that, I agree cordially with both my hon. Friends that the duty of maintaining the food supply of the nation must also receive every consideration which is possible in the circumstances in which we find ourselves at this time, but after all I take occasion to say, in answer to the question put to me by my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division, that any hardship or inconvenience which may arise from the dislocation of the fishing industry is more than compensated by the invaluable work which is being done for the nation in other directions by these trawlers and their dauntless crews.

I listened to the statement of my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Sir J. Walton) yesterday week. No discourtesy to him is involved in the fact that I could not then reply. The Debate soon after took another course, as he knows, and the House rose earlier than was anticipated. As regards the speech of my hon. Friend and the speech in to-day's Debate of my hon. Friend the Member for Elgin and Nairn (Sir A. Williamson), I hope that I shall be forgiven if I pass the general reflection, with very great respect, that neither speaker thought it worth while to pay a passing tribute of thanks and admiration to the extraordinary work done by the Transport Department of the Admiralty under tremendous difficulties. I am quite sure that that was an oversight on their part which they would wish to have corrected, and when making the criticism which they are fully entitled to make I am sure that they took it for granted that this Department has in the circumstances in which it found itself worked under tremendous difficulties with very great success from a naval and military point of view. Very well! Let us approach the whole question of the transport work of the Admiralty in the duly chastened spirit which I am quite sure my hon. Friends would desire. The pre-war operations of this particular Department were on an extremely small scale compared with the operations which confronted it on the outbreak of war, and with which it has since been confronted in an increasing degree. On the naval side about six colliers and the same number of oilers were engaged annually for coaling and oiling the Fleet, and about 200 colliers were chartered for single voyages during the year and a certain number of colliers were also chartered for Fleet manœuvre purposes. The conveyance of drafts and reliefs to ships on foreign stations, and of relieved men homeward, were usually arranged in ordinary passenger ships at rates per head, and naval stores, out and home, were either conveyed to it in our own fleet auxiliaries, of which we had about thirty, colliers, oilers and store ships, or were carried in liners as part of their cargo service. That was the arrangement made for naval transport in peace time. Take the military side. The transport of reliefs for the Army in India and the Colonies was provided for by from six to twelve troop transports, chartered annually, and, as with the Navy, a large number of men were carried in passenger ships at rates per head. Military stores and equipment out and home were carried on liners as part of their cargo service. So much for the pre-war conditions.

When the War broke out our military and naval requirements were so vital that it was impossible to prepare charter parties or to requisition proportionately between the various owners, and all that could be done to meet the situation was to take such ships as were available and suitable in the home ports, and to give assurances that the claims of owners would hereafter be considered fairly. That was done by the issue of the Royal Proclamation authorising the Admiralty to requisition ships and announcing at the same time the formation of the Board of Arbitration. That scheme was most successful. The shipowners placed no obstacle in the way of the Transport Department. On the contrary, they gave every possible assistance, with the result that the Navy's demands for mercantile ships were met promptly and the Expeditionary Force was conveyed absolutely to schedule. It is clear that it would have been quite impossible to have secured any competition among the owners in order to obtain the most reasonable rates. What was necessary was to obtain the most favourable position for immediate delivery. All that was possible was to acquaint the owner in detail as far as possible with the terms on which the vessel was to be run, and to arrange for the payments of advances on account of hire. Whatever fitting up was necessary had to be done with the greatest expedition. That was the situation which confronted us. I have already stated that proportionate requisitioning was out of the question at first owing to the urgency of the problem. We had to take up vessels that were immediately available in Home water. Therefore, as my hon. Friend will see, a large proportion of the ships of coasting or short distance trading firms were taken, and naturally long distance firms whose ships go foreign had only one or two at the most taken.

Then, again, there came the question of immediate suitability. There was naturally a preference for ships that were suitable without alteration, and I would like to say this, in reference to some criticism which is made, that at any rate in the early days of the War, shipowners did not feel it a particular hardship to be what was subsequently styled over-requisitioned. At any rate, by requisitioning regular employment and an adequate remuneration were insured, and it was only when rates had risen considerably above what the Admiralty were paying that the inequality of requisition naturally enough began to be felt. That gave rise to the demand for a more proportionate requisitioning. The justice of that demand was recognised, and steps were taken to remedy inequality as far as possible, consistently with a proper fulfilment of our naval and military requirements. The whole matter was, at the outset, full of considerable difficulties, but, with the assistance of our Advisory Committee, every endeavour was made gradually to adjust things as far as practicable. How stupendous has been the task of the Transport Department the Prime Minister gave this House, on 2nd November, in the speech which he then made, an idea. I need not rehearse it, but I will add this: In addition to the immediate demands of the Army and the Navy for necessary tonnage for warlike operations, the Transport Department was soon faced by urgent requisitions for assistance in various quarters for the maintenance of special services. Canada, Australia and New Zealand and our Allies made considerable demands upon the Department, and it has already undertaken certain functions in connection with the food supply of the country.

And, finally, there are the heavy demands of the Dardanelles Expedition. As regards transport work there, my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley has noted the fact that the Civil Lord stated in another place last Thursday that a Special Commission has already been sent to the Mediterranean to investigate matters, with a view to the transport arrangements being placed on the most satisfactory basis possible. The Commission, which is already at work, consists of Rear-Admiral F. G. Eyre, Brigadier-General A. B. Hamilton and Mr. T. Royden, of the Advisory Committee, with Captain C. R. Jones, Welsh Fusiliers, as secretary. In connection with their operations I may point out that in the pre-war period in July, 1914, the Staff—central and local— of the Transport Department consisted of fifty-five persons, and in November, 1915, it consisted of 870 persons, many of them, to my knowledge, working double tides. This is an indication of the volume of work which has to be done. I dare say the Transport Department made some mistakes at the outset; that would only be human; but they did not make the mistake of leaving either the Navy or the Army waiting or wanting. That charge cannot be brought against them.

As regards financial control, let me say that so far as the financial control of the Transport Department expenditure is concerned, it must be acepted, as will be apparent to my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, that the War Staff and the military authorities must be the judges of what ships to take up, and financial control can only be exercised to a limited extent. That can be and is done in the following directions. We have at the Admiralty a weekly submission of all liabilities that have been incurred, and there is a weekly review by the Admiralty and Finance Committee of all liabilities incurred; and, so far as naval ships are concerned, the Chief of the War Staff is from time to time consulted as to the possibility of paying off the more expensive vessels. The rates of hire are kept constantly under review, and such adjustments as make for economy are from time to time suggested. Apart from the weekly meeting of the Financial Committee to consider the periodical statement of liabilities in connection with the War—submitted not only from the Transport Department, but all Departments— there have been forty-eight other meetings from week to week of the Finance Committee since August, 1914, at which questions connected with the Transport Department have been under consideration. The rates of hire to be paid for the various classes of ships taken either for the naval or military services have been reviewed from time to time by the Finance Committee in consultation with Lord Mersey, Chairman of the Arbitration Board, and Mr. William Walton, the deputy-chairman of that Board, on the one hand, and Lord Inchcape, acting on behalf of the owners, on the other. Proposals for reduction of the rates to be paid for the steamers taken up as armed merchant cruisers are now in process of being carried into effect. Of course, the financial side of the operation will, so far as possible, be closely watched until the last craft finally drops her anchor in Home port after her last voyage.

I cannot carry this too far, and I am sure that hon. Members would not wish it, because I must repeat that the determination of the number of ships to be taken up, and the time they are to be kept on charter, rests in other hands. A good deal has been said by both my hon. Friends as to the uneconomical use of the requisitioned ships. On that, let me say this: I think there is a good deal of misapprehension as to the functions of the Transport Department. The Department requisitions and prepares ships which are demanded for naval and military purposes, but it is not in a position to say whether the service is really necessary or not. It would be a very great responsibility to assume. I agree that shipowners may be excused for thinking that their ships are being uneconomically used, both by the naval and military authorities. Transports, both naval and military, are seen by them apparently lying idle for considerable periods, or apparently making voyages, which, from a shipowner's ordinary business experience, may appear uneconomical. But it must be remembered that naval and military requirements are of an entirely special kind, and the first consideration is that, so far as the Army is concerned, we must at all times be prepared to carry, on the shortest notice, any expedition, with its horses, stores, and equipment, the dispatch of which may be decided upon by the Cabinet, and that, so far as it is humanly possible, the Navy should be able to rely absolutely upon obtaining supplies, coal, stores, and ammunition instantly on any emergency, and be ready for any move which the enemy may make. I, of course, fully recognise that the ordinary service rendered by British shipping is a very vital consideration to an island people situated as we are, secondary only to the direct and successful prosecution of warlike operations. Indeed, the two considerations involved are interdependent in a very marked degree.

The fact is that our duty as a Government has been to deal fully and promptly with the direct needs of the War, at the same time keeping a very solicitous eye upon these secondary obligations. My hon. Friend will feel that the task of meeting the claims of both these considerations at one and the same time is one of the utmost difficulty; and no one will deny, of course, that the merchant service in regard to its ordinary and accustomed avocations is bound to be prejudiced to the extent that it is requisitioned for warlike purposes. As to those avocations, I am glad to have this opportunity of referring to one of the very finest features of this War, worthy to stand with the greatest deeds of Army or Navy, and that is the quiet and intrepid manner in which the British merchant service has gone to and fro upon the face of the waters undeterred by the hidden menace of mine and submarine. To go back to the Transport Department, which, I must insist, is merely the Department to requisition ships and prepare ships, as I have said, demanded by the naval and military authorities for specific purposes. It is not competent or empowered to express opinions as to the necessity of those demands. Its duty is immediately to meet naval and military needs, to meet them as appropriately and economically as the time at its disposal permits. I agree fully that if, having the time and opportunity to make a suitable selection, it had carelessly selected the wrong class of ship for the service to be met; if, again, having the time to weigh the matter, it had fixed rates of hire considered to be extravagant; if its organisation had been so faulty that, when due allowance for the conditions under which it works is made, it appeared that tonnage taken up had been carelessly allowed to lie idle by the Transport Department—if due care had not been taken promptly to release vessels no longer needed for the naval and military services, then the Transport Department must face criticism.

You must remember, however, that these operations cannot quite be conducted along the lines of well-ordered dividend-earning lines with which peace has long made us familiar. War should not mean extravagance, though I am afraid it often does. But it is bound to mean waste— waste and dislocation. I may add that the Transport Department has had associated with it since February an Advisory Committee consisting of three shipowners—Mr. Royden, representing the passenger lines; my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt), representing the cargo lines; and Mr. Glover, representing tramp steamers. Mr. F. C. Gardiner, representing tramps and cargo liners, has been added to the Committee, and with that Committee all questions concerning the requisitioned tonnage are discussed. Apart from this, they have every opportunity of advising the Transport Department on the use of tonnage as far as that is within the control of the Department. Their advice in these matters has been of the greatest possible assistance. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, speaking on Wednesday of last week, said:—

Is that an excuse for a tramp steamer remaining idle for several months?

If ever they see a transport or a collier standing idly by apparently doing nothing, they might think of those railway sidings full of empty rolling stock.

I hope the House will forgive me following immediately after my right hon. Friend. I do so after consultation with Mr. Speaker, and as our two Departments have been criticised together there is a certain amount of appropriateness in the defence of my Department following the defence of my right hon. Friend of his Department. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Sir J. Walton) raised certain questions connected with the financial administration of the War Office, and I notice that in the Press and in this House there is a certain amount of criticism directed against the financial control, and especially within the last few weeks. I wish to make it perfectly plain that I do not in the least object to criticism, and I welcome it if it is constructive and suggestive; but mere fault-finding is of no great value, and I venture to think that nobody should indulge in it to any extent at the present time. When we are criticised, I think the critic should remember the stupendous task which the War Office has had to discharge since the outbreak of the War. It is very difficult for anybody outside the actual military administration to realise how enormous that task has been. We have had to create, organise, train, clothe, house, feed and transport an Army something like fifteen or twenty times larger than the Army we had to deal with in time of peace. I think the House will remember and recognise, when criticising financial control, that the first thing the financial authorities at the War Office had to see to was that in no way was the Army stinted or prevented from carrying out to the full the duties that fell to it, by any niggardly, parsimonious withholding of the necessary money. On the other hand, of course, the financial authorities had to enforce as best they could—and in time of war the task is not very easy—due and proper economy. By "due economy" I mean the saving of all unnecessary expenditure and the prevention, as far as prevention is possible, of all preventative waste. I hope the House will bear in mind when they are speaking of economy that Members of this House are not altogether guiltless of efforts to push the War Office into further, I will not say extravagant, but into further expenditure. When I am next approached with a view to further expenditure I hope I shall be forgiven if I remind those who come to me that they have often expressed themselves with regard to economy.

The hon. Member for Barnsley raised certain questions connected with hutted camps and with the waste that has occurred in the building and making and maintenance of roads in connection with those camps. There, again, I think the House will do well to remember what the task of building those hutted camps has been. They will do well to remember that the splendid response to the Colours, to the call of arms which characterised, and is characterising, the working classes of this country, has made the task of building those hutted camps infinitely more difficult than it would otherwise have been. As I have pointed out before, the very cream of the working classes were amongst the first to enlist, and those who have been responsible for building those camps have had to carry on as best they might with labour that fell, at any rate, short of the best possible class. Beyond the difficulty of finding the best labour with which to build them, I think the House might well remember the extraordinary conditions under which the building of them was carried out. The response to the call to arms gave us an Army in numbers infinitely quicker than it could be handled, equipped, clothed or housed. I think the House will be glad to know that in the first four months of the War we were able to provide new roofed accommodation for 280,000 troops. To accommodate 280,000 in four months, I am told by one of the leading civil engineers of the country, is a feat without parallel in the engineering history of the world. I do not think it is astonishing that when the camps were being brought into existence at great speed and under the conditions which then prevailed that there may have been here and there some mistakes of which we now see the result. The hon. Member for Barnsley brings to our notice a mistake which was made in the refusal of an offer by a railway company to carry double-tracked sidings, but I would ask him to bear in mind that on the whole the work of providing those camps has been performed in a singularly efficient manner.

While I am dealing with the question of waste, I should like to say a word in regard to a step which I took—a step lying rather outside the actual functions of the Financial Secretary perhaps, but one which I hope may bear good fruit. All last winter and spring I was much impressed by the apparent waste of effort and material on the part of those who were engaged on voluntary work for the supplying of comforts for the troops, and when I was appointed to my present office I made inquiries as to whether or not there was any real waste in connection with the splendid work which people had undertaken. I found that there was waste of effort on the part of voluntary workers, and, what I thought more regrettable, waste of a great deal of material. I thought it would be a good plan, if it could be done, to organise the bodies of workers who are good enough to give their time and trouble to the provision of comforts for the troops, and to see whether or not we could not systematise the whole movement throughout the country with a view to the prevention of waste. I was fortunate enough to get Sir Edward Ward to undertake the work of organisation. It has been launched. I am glad to say it is being very warmly received and supported, and I hope that throughout the coming winter we may be able to do something to provide comforts for our troops without any of the waste of material which unhappily occurred last winter.

Are all the districts responding to the circular with a view to having one united working committee?

I think they are all responding, and in most cases I understand it is being very warmly received. The hon. Member for Barnsley raised the question of the employment of business men. He criticised the War Office for not having made greater use of men specially skilled in the making of contracts and so forth. I think my hon. Friend and many other people are under some misapprehension of the facts. It is quite true that we have not in the War Office appointed as heads of Departments or to permanent positions on the staff men engaged in business; but we have availed ourselves both of the advice and of the services of a large number of business men throughout the country. Their co-operation is not advertised, but it is none the less valuable, and I am sure that it has conferred great advantage upon the community. The orders for vast quantities of goods of all sorts which we have had to place, necessarily disturbing as they do the organisation of the various industries throughout the country, could not have been placed as well as they have been unless we had had the actual and active co-operation of the leading men in the various industries concerned. I have taken the precaution to fortify myself with a, list, which is by no means complete, of those who are good enough to assist us, and I have it in front of me. Perhaps without giving names I might mention some of the industries in which we are receiving this kind of assistance: razors, cutlery, leather, tea, jute, flax, oils, biscuits, horse-shoes, anti-gas equipment, medical supplies, fur coats, clothing, hardware, woollen goods, hosiery, boots, meat, textiles, building of houses, American purchases, and so forth. In all of these we are receiving the actual co-operation of the leading men in the industries named, and we could not have succeeded in placing our contracts and getting the prices of our contracts reviewed and reduced had it not been for the welcome assistance which these patriotic men have given.

Would the Financial Secretary say what he means by "American purchases"?

We have taken advantage of the great organisation of Messrs. Morgan to place the orders which have had to be placed in the U.S.A., and I think it has been a good stroke of business. Opinions may differ as to the best way of making use of the business abilities throughout the country.

Could the hon. Gentleman say why the valuable services of Sir George Gibb were dispensed with?

When I came upon the scene at the end of May or the beginning of June, I found that Sir George Gibb was very anxious to resign the position which he held, in fact I think he had sent in his resignation. Sir George Gibb was appointed to his post at the War Office largely at the instance of Lord Kitchener, and, to be quite frank—I think frankness is the best possible course—I am not so fully familiar with the circumstances under which Sir George Gibb was appointed or resigned, as to be able, without further reference to the Secretary of State, to tell the House precisely what occurred, and, as I am unable to refer to the Secretary of State at the moment, perhaps the House will forgive my saying anything-further on that question.

It is not in the least degree a personal matter as regards Sir George Gibb. My point was that it was considered necessary to appoint a man of his experience and knowledge to advise in the making of contracts. He was retired, or he resigned, and no one else, so far as I can ascertain, has been put in his place, although the need continues.

That is absolutely another question, and I should like to make it quite plain. I know that there is nothing personal whatever between Lord Kitchener and Sir George Gibb which led to the resignation of Sir George. My hon. Friend will remember that the Ministry of Munitions was brought into being and various other reorganisations were made, and I think it is quite possible that at that time Sir George Gibb may have found his duties on the Committee of Production pressing upon him with greater severity. I do not want to make the slightest mystery about it; I am quite frank; I do not know enough to say. As to the best methods of making use of the services of business men, my hon. Friend instanced the Ministry of Munitions. He pointed to the fact that the Minister of Munitions has taken direct advantage of leading business men in the engineering world and appointed them to positions in the office, and he makes a distinction between what the Minister of Munitions has done and what goes on in the War Office. I would ask the House to bear in mind that the Ministry of Munitions is a totally different organisation from the War Office, and formed for a totally different purpose. The Ministry of Munitions has been created actually to organise the industries of the country, and it has taken advantage of the actual cooperation of leading business men. I do not doubt that it has been very sound policy to appoint business men to the head of various Departments of the Ministry of Munitions. But the War Office is in a totally different position; it is a totally different kind of office and it has a totally different sort of administration. I think that in so long-established and complicated a machine as the War Office it has been wiser to secure the co-operation of business men in the direction of advice and the organisation of industry outside the office rather than to appoint them to actual positions within the office. But I hope the House will realise that we are daily and hourly in consultation and acting together with the leading business men throughout the country.

6.0 P.M.

There is one further matter on which I should like to touch. It was referred to in another place a few days ago and, in answer to questions, I have something to say in regard to it during the past few weeks—I refer to the savings that we have been able to bring about by changes that we have made. I do not want to put it too high, but while many people have been talking we have been acting. I do not say that we have done very much— not nearly so much as we should like to do—but at any rate we are moving. We have reduced the billeting rates with very considerable annual saving in consequence. Before I filled my present office I had the advantage of being in France for two or three months, and I was struck there with the waste of rations. When I came home I found lively complaints about the waste of rations here. We immediately set to work to see where the rations, if they were excessive, could be and ought to be reduced. I want to make this clear. We speak of the rations being excessive, and we admit that there is waste. But the ration was designed not as a haphazard shot in the dark; it was the result of a long series of experiments carried out by bodies of men engaged in work of different degrees of severity and under different conditions, and the medical authorities settled the active service ration to enable a man to be properly nourished when he was doing a certain quantity of work. Of course, we may as well admit at once that the conditions of active service throughout this War have not been what we expected. The active service ration was designed to keep a man thoroughly fit when he was undergoing extreme hardship, taking long marches, having nothing but field kitchens in which to cook his food, and so forth. In reality we have found ourselves—in France and Flanders, at any rate—in different circumstances. We have also found that owing to the liberality of the folk at home, and the propinquity of the theatre of war; owing also to the admirable arrangements made by the Post Office, that the men get supplies from home to a degree never contemplated. The result of it is that, getting, as they do, these large supplies from home, they have not the appetite to consume the admirable rations supplied by the Army Council. Under these circumstances we reduced the rations. For the moment I forget when, but I think it was in June or July. We did not reduce it enough. But let me tell the House it is not a light matter for anybody to reduce the food of the soldier. He runs a considerable risk if he overdoes it, and he immediately comes into conflict with the medical authorities, who watch the interests of the soldier— very properly, of course—with a very jealous eye. We had to convince the medical authorities that there was an opportunity for further saving.

I do not want to make a long story of it, but we sent a circular round the various commands throughout the country and invited an expression of opinion as to whether a further reduction was possible. On receipt of the replies we thought it advisable to give the officers commanding these various commands authority to reduce the ration in cases where they thought it was desirable and proper so to do. It is not possible, nor desirable, and it is not proper, in all cases to reduce the ration so low as three-quarters of a pound of meat. I do not think you can reduce it where you have small detachments of men isolated and without ample facilities for cooking supplies and so forth. But in the larger camps, where you have proper kitchens, and practically the facilities that you have in barracks, where men are not undergoing any specially arduous course of training, it is possible in these cases to reduce, and it has been done. While we are dealing with the question of waste of food and material, the House ought, I think, to remember that the Army Council may issue the most strenuous orders, may put placards on the wall, may do anything it likes, but the matter depends, must depend, and always will depend, upon the officers commanding the units as to whether the administration of the unit is or is not perfect.

Has anything been done, or can anything be done, to secure greater uniformity in the amount of rations issued to the different commands; in some commands there has been a large reduction and in other commands none at all?

The Prime Minister said the other day that he thought it was desirable that there should be greater regularity, and we are taking steps to secure that. For the reasons I have given we do not want to be too imperative about it. We want to persuade the general officers commanding to take this step where possible, because they are the only people who can tell the circumstances under which their troops are being trained, accommodated, and are working. There are conditions, as I pointed out to my hon. and learned Friend, under which three-quarters of a pound of meat is not enough. We do not want it to be too hard and fast a rule for cutting the ration down to that low point; it really depends upon the officers com- manding the unit as to whether the administration is to be good, bad, or indifferent. We are doing, and have been doing, our best to secure that officers shall have the opportunity of making themselves more perfect in these administrative matters. But let the House realise the task we have had! We have had to create an enormous Army. We have had to create officers as well as men in countless cases. These officers have had no experience or opportunity to learn. They have had to grope their way. To a large extent the back work has been overtaken in the imparting of the necessary instructions, and the securing of the necessary improvements in administration. We have reduced the rates paid for horses boarded out, and we are endeavouring to secure that horses shall be put out to work for their keep, instead of being kept standing in depots idle. We have endeavoured to secure better control of clothing purchases by improving the statistical examination of the supply, and the future likely demands. We have made arrangements with the Allied Governments to co-ordinate the purchases, and to prevent the buying of one against another in the same markets. By taking that step, I am certain we have saved untold millions to our Allies, as well as very large sums of money to ourselves. We have taken other steps, which I will not detail; but I should like to say, bearing upon, the point which my hon. and learned Friend raised in regard to the discretion given to officers in command to vary the rations, that I received yesterday a report from one of the inspectors in the Quartermaster-General's service, in which he gives the figures following the reduction of the rations in one of the commands. As a result of action taken in the month of October— this is one command only—the figures show that there has been saved 800,000 lbs. of meat, 1 ton of mustard, 1 ton of pepper, 10 tons of salt, 10 tons of bread, 1 ton of bacon, and so forth.

One command comprises several counties. There is the Northern and Southern Command, and so on, where there are a large number of troops.

What steps have been taken to prevent rations being drawn for men on week-end leave, or to prevent the sale of such rations? Are the bones and fat collected and disposed of?

All that has been pressed upon the attention of the commanding officers. In connection with the employment of business men, I may say that there are several Members of this House who have been appointed inspectors of the Quartermaster-General's service, whose business it is—a business they are discharging admirably—to visit the various camps, and look into these questions of waste. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Colchester, who is good enough to assist me as my private secretary, for several months acted as one of these inspectors, and the knowledge he gained in the course of his arduous duties has been of very great advantage to me in my present work as well as of great service to the command. I want to conclude by a very short reference to some points that were made the other day in the House of Lords, and in a letter which appeared yesterday under the signature of Sir Guy Fleetwood Wilson. The question has been raised as to whether or not the present system is subject to proper control. Sir Guy Wilson says in his letter:— has ceased to exist is not and cannot be substantiated. Sir Guy Wilson says:—

With regard to the estimate for the current year I cannot say more than that the estimate which was put to the Treasury earlier in the year is being fulfilled beyond our expectations. Undoubtedly as regards purely war expenditure Treasury control does not exist and could not exist. We are sometimes face to face with a situation which call for an instant decision as to whether money may properly be spent or not, and it would be impossible to give a decision with sufficient promptitude by reference to the Treasury. Under those circumstances the Treasury themselves suggested that the Financial Secretary to the War Office should give a certificate in specified terms which should take the place of the sanction customarily given by the Treasury. I am the individual who has to bear the responsibility for giving that certificate. It is never given when reference to the Treasury can properly be made. Sir Guy Fleetwood Wilson and hon. Members of this House and the other House made a suggestion that there should be a small Committee appointed to review Army expenditure as it proceeds. There is already a Committee, but it is not manned as it would be if this proposal were adopted. At the first interview I had with Lord Kitchener after I was appointed, there was brought into being a small Committee which periodically and systematically reviews the expenditure put forward by the various Departments of the War Office. I have explained what that Committee is before. It consists of myself as Chairman when the Secretary of War is not able to be present), the Assistant Financial Secretary and the Chief of the General Staff. We have power to review, and we do review, expenditure of all kinds, and as the result of the review we have made, the various steps which I have previously indicated have been taken.

When we speak of economy remember there is a broad distinction to be drawn between getting things cheaply and reducing demands for consumption. The latter must be done by the military administration, for in that business men would only make friction and could not decide matters of that kind, and friction is the one thing we want to avoid at the War Office. Business men are valuable to us in getting things cheaply, and in that way we make the fullest possible use of their services. The Prime Minister referred the other day to the increased cost of soldiers, and I think he said that whereas in times of peace a soldier costs £100 a year, now he was costing between £250 and £300 a year. I think that statement has been rather misunderstood. People are inclined to assume that that is the cost of the individual soldier, and they wonder how on earth a soldier can cost so much more in time of War than in time of peace. What the Prime Minister said is only a rough and ready method of expressing the cost of the War, and it was not really the cost of the individual soldier. The figures given by the Prime Minister were arrived at by taking the total expenditure on the Army and dividing it by the number of soldiers we have in the field. It includes capital expenditure, munitions, equipment, and all the rest of it.

Yes, it includes everything. I apologise to the House for having been so long, but as the Finance Department has been criticised, I thought it only right that I should, at any rate, say a few words on their behalf. I really cannot sit down without paying some very small tribute to the Financial Staff of the War Office. Since the outbreak of war the strain upon them has been heavy and incessant, and it has tried the strength of every individual to the uttermost. There has never been a murmur. They labour unseen by, and unknown to, the great mass of their fellow countrymen. Sir Charles Harris and the able men who work with him bring to the service of the country zeal, ability, and devotion which I am proud to acknowledge.

The Motion which has been put from the Chair marks the last stage in the Vote which the Government are now asking the House to pass. I have listened to the Debates at all the different stages of the Votes of Credit, and I will say that I have been amazed at the ready acquiescence with which the House has accepted the size of the Vote represented by the Bill which we are now discussing. No case has so far been presented for asking the House of Commons for such a large Vote. In the previous Votes asked for the largest was £250,000,000. What reason is there why £400,000,000 should be asked for at the present time? The Government cannot in any way be doubtful as to what the attitude of the House would be upon such a Vote. The House has never grudged anything the Government has asked for in connection with the prosecution of the War, and never will object to any amount that is put forward. What is the reason why the Government have asked for so much at the present time? One disadvantage of it is that it makes the Government more independent of the House of Commons than it otherwise would be, and it postpones to a later period the opportunity which the House has of reviewing the policy of the Government. As matters stand at the present moment we shall not have, in the ordinary course of things, an opportunity of discussing the War policy until, I suppose, the first or second week in February. I think that is far too long an interval when matters of such gigantic importance are taking place in connection with the War.

It may be said that we have the Adjournment, but everybody knows that that is a totally and entirely unsatisfactory occasion to raise a great question of policy or to criticise the Government. Therefore I think the Government have had too big an appetite on this occasion, and they ought to have been content with a Vote representing £250,000.000. We know perfectly well that the Vote would have been for £250,000,000 if we had had a regular Opposition in this House. I can imagine the speech that the Colonial Secretary would have made when a Vote for £400,000,000 was proposed. He would, of course, have objected to it, but that would not have been necessary, because the larger amount would never have been put forward. This is only an indication of how little the Government care for what the House of Commons thinks or does. Whatever is settled by the War Council or the Cabinet is regarded as completely settled, and it is practically impossible for the House of Commons to bring pressure to bear upon their policy or their actions. I make my protest most respectfully and humbly against the Government asking for so large a Vote at the present time. The only advantage of it is to postpone any criticism which the House may wish to offer between now and February. I think the occasion is opportune to ask the Government, in view of that fact, what their intentions are in regard to the future plans in this House. I think they might have told us how long they expect the House to sit at the present time, when we are to adjourn, and when they anticipate we are going to meet again. I hope before this Debate ends we shall have some indication, in view of the large demands which the Government are making and the ready acquiescence which is being given to their proposals, that they will tell the House what their plans are before we adjourn, and when they intend the House to reassemble. I have also been struck with the light-hearted manner in which the general question of the expenditure of the Government has been regarded throughout these Debates. Take, for example, the extraordinary outburst of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) the other night, with his great reputation and commercial ability. He told the House of Commons that after all finance matters but little, and that no war had ever really been lost or won by finance. I never heard any more amazing statement in my life.

One of the gravest things to which this House could possibly devote its attention at the present time is the question of our expenditure. We have got a daily war expenditure of about £5,000,000 at the present time. Does anybody doubt that it is going to be £6,000,000 per day in February, or £42,000,000 a week? Does anybody doubt that it is going to reach £50,000,000? We have not only to remember our own obligations. We are now fighting on another frontier. We are going in for a fresh expedition, and we are raising hundreds of thousands more men and committing ourselves and cur Allies, and all that means additional expenditure upon our original estimate. I know there was some money saved on the last Vote of Credit, as the Prime Minister told us the other day. It was not saved in any way in regard to economy, but simply because in the last Vote of Credit the right hon. Gentleman had made provision for financial assistance to Allies which has not been called upon up to the present time, and it has not been called for by new Allies. Therefore, I contend that we have to view the situation at £40,000,000, with a possible £50,000,000 a week. That is a proposition which, calmly considered, means a very serious future to this country, unless it is seriously and immediately grappled with. If you ask people throughout the country to-day, who have means of observation, they will tell you that more extravagance exists to-day than existed at the beginning of the War. No one was to blame during the first three or four months at the beginning of the War for extravagance in certain directions, because we wanted to do everything possible to prosecute the War. But it is quite a different thing, after fifteen months of war, when you have had full and ample opportunity of taking advantage of every kind of assistance which is available in order to see that extravagance is not taking place. I say generally there is no doubt that millions could be saved at the present time if the Government would properly devote themselves to the question and have proper direct control over the expenditure. The Colonial Secretary, when he was in Opposition, made a very strong speech on this question we have been discussing to-day—the question of transport. I have the quotation here, but he will probably remember it, and I need not trouble the House with it. But the right hon. Gentleman has been a member of the Cabinet now for some time. I have no doubt he has been trying to get proper control with regard to this question, but it was only the other day that the Government appointed a Committee to deal further with this question.

Why did not the Government the very first month of the War call in the assistance, for all these difficult matters, of men who had no axe to grind—men who had built up fortunes because of their ability and business capacity? I say the Government has never yet exploited the vast reservoir of business ability, and this has been to some extent the real cause of the extravagance. Take the case of wages under the Munitions Department. Wages are being paid to men to-day far in excess of their ability and of their market value. I do not know who is responsible, but I can produce cases in my own Constituency where men have been known as absolute failures in business, where a business man would give them hardly anything at all, and they are jumped into high positions with big wages, far beyond their ordinary ability would demand or the rate of wages in the district would require. There is a weak point. I do not know who is responsible, but we want closer supervision of the money paid in wages throughout the country. I will take another point—it may be small namely, that of giving 2s. 9d. to new recruits. One of the most successful recruiting agents in the country told me the other day that the men come forward with eagerness, or anyhow with indications of patriotism, in order to join the Colours. He said in most cases they are amazed at receiving this 2s. 9d. Does the Government suggest that this money which is given to a man who devotes half an hour to being attested is a factor that induces him to join the Army? I should say that 2s. 9d. is entirely unnecessary, and the Financial Secretary might see whether that, at least, could not be saved. There is a further direction in which, I think, money might be saved. I have a letter here from a very large employer, a business man—it is not the first time he has written me about it—who is in the habit of attending sales of stores of the War Office, Admiralty, and other Departments, and he tells me there is a whole regiment of Jewish merchants who make big fat livings out of attending these sales. But the real point is this: he says that time after time he goes to sales at which goods that have been supplied to the Government are sold practically without ever having been opened at all. They are put up to auction in the usual way. They are goods that would be required in the second year, and a reason that is given for the sales is that the House of Commons, having voted a certain amount of money for these goods, they have to be got rid of. I would suggest that this should be looked into. This man will indicate to the right hon. Gentleman absolute facts of cases where money is being wasted.

Then there is the question of contracts. There is no doubt that vast sums of money could be saved in contracts. I know cases myself where manufacturers have sent in a certain kind of article. They have said they will do it at a certain figure. They have been told—I can give the names of three—that "Regulation prices are so-and-so, and you must let us have an article up to them." In one case a man repacked the rejected goods and added 1s. 6d. to the article; he had a letter thanking him for the improvement, and saying that was exactly what was wanted. I admit that was in the provinces, and not directly at headquarters; but men are sent down to examine things who know little about them. That is a direction in which vast sums of money, in my opinion, have been lost. Is the Government doing its part in order to stop this extravagance? I do not think they are. What have they done? They appointed the Retrenchment Committee. We heard the other day the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that the Committee had not met for two months. There is not much business about that. There was a good reason, I imagine, for the non-attendance of the right hon. Gentleman, because he has had enormous and important financial work in connection with the Budget and other matters, but why could not the other members have met? Why could they not appoint business men to deal with the matter, even if the right hon. Gentleman was not on it himself?

The House knows there are business men, who have proved their commercial capacity in their own business, who are only too anxious to give every hour of the day, if necessary, to assist the Government. Instead of that, you put overworked officials on to these Committees, with the result that at the most vital moment, when retrenchment might be secured, nothing is done, our commitments are increasing every day, and it is more and more difficult to get any economy at all. Why cannot the Government break away from this red-tape system? Why cannot they appoint business men, who can attend every day, and might very well overlook practically all contracts? This Retrenchment Committee is limited practically to the Civil Departments. It is not the Civil Service that is costing us vast sums at the present moment. Where the extravagance is taking place is principally in the Army Department, the Munitions Department if you like, and it may be in connection with some few other Departments. Why should not the Retrenchment Committee have power to deal with these matters? It would not interfere at all with the work of the War Office—nothing of the kind, unless they wanted it to interfere, and nobody would. I say it is essential, in view of a prolonged war, that there should be supervision over these contracts that are being made, without any unnecessary delay. I plead, therefore, that the Government should set us a better example than they have done.

Take one thing where they might have done something, namely, the Civil Service Estimates, made up after the War started, after the full realisation of what the country was likely to be called upon to bear. They might have kept in mind that our national expenditure had increased even before the War came on. From the time the late Government came in to the time of the War breaking out, we put £40,000,000 a year on our national expenditure, so that we had a considerable amount to carry even before the War broke out. In face of that, in face of the knowledge that the War is going to last and be an expensive matter, in this year's Civil Service Estimates, made up after the War started, we find £7,000,000 increase. I ask, in view of our commitments, in view of what undoubtedly will be a tremendous increase in our expenditure, where is the money to come from? Have the Government thought where the money is to come from at the rate we are going? We cannot with any confidence look abroad for more Loans. We had a statement—I think a most unwise statement—from the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other night, that he tried to get £200,000,000, he tried to get £150,000,000, and even £140,000,000 in America, and he could not get it. That is surely "bearing" his own stock. Is there any hope that we can get fresh Loans in America? How ever urgent the exchange is, I do not think there is ground for hope, unless something is done in the direction referred to by the hon. and gallant Member for Colchester (Major Worthington Evans) with regard to American securities. I say we have got to face, whether we like it or not, forced Loans in this country. We have got to face conscription of capital, and I venture to say that that is a possibility of the very near future. And then, perhaps, and not till then, will the Government give us that lead with regard to economy which I think is their duty. We want much more dramatic action than we have yet had by the Government on this subject. We want a better example than they have yet shown in the direction of economy, before they can expect the country to follow those fine precepts of which we have heard so much.

I desire to repeat the request made by me some time back to the Government as to whether they will give us an assurance that there is going to be an inquiry into the origin and conduct of the Dardanelles expedition? A statement on the subject has already been made in another place, and I would like to have it repeated on the floor of this House. The hon. Member for Pembroke, and many other Members, have had for some time a Motion on the Paper in regard to this matter, and I ask the Colonial Secretary whether he can repeat an assurance, which, I understand, was given in another place some time ago, that at the proper time full inquiry will be made into the initiation and conduct of the Dardanelles expedition, I can assure the Government it will be well from every point of view if they can give us an assurance on that point. Of course, if they do not there are some things which some Members will consider it their duty to bring before the House of Commons. If we can get that assurance it will be our duty, of course, to accept the position of the Government, and not re-open controversies which, for the moment, had much better be concealed.

I personally regret the position in which the whole Dardanelles controversy has been left at the present time. I think the Government would have been much wiser to have given us a full and complete statement of the whole facts. We can only win this War, in my opinion, by the Government telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and I would suggest to them that even now they consider whether they could not take the House of Commons more frankly into their confidence than they have. From the position, as it is left at the present time, it appears to me, so far as I can see, that while the Cabinet was responsible for the expedition, they had as much responsibility as the Kitchen Committee of the House of Commons. They were told what had been done. I would like to know whether any of them asked the question whether the Board of Admiralty had recommended it?—a very important question. I would like to know whether anyone asked whether there were to be land forces simultaneously?—another very important question. Apparently no one. How can you expect the people of this country to have confidence in you when they cannot get answers to these questions? They are anxious to support you. I venture to say every Member of this House is anxious to support you, but how can we have complete confidence in you when vital pointy of that kind cannot receive a straight and a square answer? I say that the situation demands fuller confidence in the people. What has been done with the General in the Dardanelles who took his troops ten miles on the wrong road? Who is responsible for that? Has he been dealt with? I am very doubtful about that. Who is responsible for the troops dying of thirst by the score the second day after they landed? I want these things inquired into, and I hope that the Government will make a satisfactory statement on the point. One thing is certain. This question of the Dardanelles cannot be left where it is. I am sorry I was not in my place when the Under-Secretary for War referred to something which I said. He assumed the other night that I got my information from a lecturer who was a war correspondent. I assure him that I did nothing of the kind, although I should be perfectly prepared to accept anything Mr. Ashmead Bartlett said on this subject. I had my information from people on the spot, and, if the right hon. Gentleman is interested, I shall be glad to show him it. The matter cannot be left where it is. We must have an assurance that there will be a complete inquiry into this matter as soon as it can possibly take place with advantage, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us that assurance.

I think the Government should also give the House more information in regard to their policy in relation to Serbia. It makes a striking story of indecision and want of foresight. We know now that in April last we were informed as to the possibility of Bulgaria attacking Serbia. There is no doubt in my mind as to what was the deciding factor in Bulgaria's action. It was the report of the military attaché at the Dardanelles which decided Bulgaria to take sides against us. I think we ought to know why the Government ignored something which was obvious to every man who could read the facts of the case. It did not come as any surprise. I had said before that Germany would strike somewhere, and this was the most likely place. What is responsible to some degree for the failure of the Government to act? It is largely due, in my opinion, in their view in regard to the censorship. The papers were not allowed to discuss the Balkans. The newspapers were specifically asked not to publish anything, and the result was that no public opinion was created which might have helped the Government to come to a decision. It was the same with regard to Turkey. They said, "Do not discuss Turkey," and the result was that we found one day that we were at war with Turkey. That is why we criticise their action with regard to the censorship. You blame the newspapers for taking a line of policy, and you tell them to be silent, but when they are silent we wake up to find that a pretty mess has been made of things. If you had allowed free discussion on the Balkan question, under your censorship, if you like, public opinion in this country would have compelled the Government to do their duty more than they have done. I say, therefore, that the Government are to be blamed for not allowing public opinion to be properly expressed in this country and for denying publication to the facts sent as to the attitude of Bulgaria. If these facts had been published, in my opinion public opinion would have forced them to take action sooner than they did. Then we are told that we are going to see Serbia righted and are going to drive the Germans back over the frontier after they have had full time to fortify the passages, and so forth. That is a prospect which we cannot view with a very light heart. I would rather have had my men on the spot before the situation arose than trust them to my ability to drive them back after the Serbians have been compelled to retreat. We did not in that, as in regard to other matters, act as we ought to have done. We ought to keep in mind what is the feeling, and what has been the feeling, in Serbia during the last few weeks. This is from a responsible man who knows the situation out there and who can be thoroughly relied upon. He writes:— and elsewhere will be fulfilled, but it will want a lot of glory to wipe out that inglorious page with regard to Serbia. Our non-success there was contributed to by our failure to represent the British position in Bulgaria and elsewhere. At the present time practically three-fourths of the newspapers in Greece belong to Greeks who are pro-Germans. That is a branch of the operation of war which we do not fully realise in this country. When you have three-fourths of the newspapers of Greece magnifying the German position and German victories, it cannot but have some effect upon the opinion of the Greeks. Why did not we get in before? Why have we not looked after neutral countries better? Why have we not seen that the British case was presented in a proper light and not allowed German lies to get full run? That, to some extent, has contributed to the present position. We are entitled to ask the Government if they have any information to give to the House with regard to the situation. We are adjourning now until Monday. Matters are very serious at the present time. I do not think anyone can read the news without being greatly alarmed. German big guns are now going to Constantinople; they are going to be used against our men in the Gallipoli Peninsula and at the Dardanelles. Has the Colonial Secretary any information which he can give to the House before we adjourn of a hopeful character or of any character at all? We must be a little anxious for our Forces out there. In my opinion the Government on this, as on other matters, ought to take the House into its fullest confidence.

I would like to say, in passing, that I hope they will repeat the promise that has been made with regard to an inquiry as to incidents on the Western front. It is admitted now that the greatest mistakes have been made. It would please the country and the men out there if a full inquiry were promised into them. I do not allude to those lies circulated by certain newspapers with regard to certain incidents which I believe to be entirely without foundation. I am speaking of the military character of the position. No matter how distinguished generals they may be, if they have not got the confidence of their men we shall never be able to make the advance which we all hope will be made. It is due to the men that a full and complete inquiry should take place as to our failure to achieve a very easy victory, and I hope the Colonial Secretary will take that into consideration.

One word with regard to a more domestic matter—the question of the position of the Government with regard to the recruiting problem. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) that the greatest disservice that has ever been done to voluntary recruiting was done the other night by the Debate which took place in this House. We now know that recruiting has been largely interfered with, and that the rapid rush which was taking place with the almost certainty of Lord Derby's efforts being successful has been greatly checked. I do not think the country ought to be puzzled on this question. I do not think it fair on a vital matter of this kind to have half a dozen men unable to agree as to what is the attitude of the Government. I believe voluntaryism would have been saved but for that event. I still hope that it may be saved, but it will only be saved if the Government will be frank and will really tell the country what they mean. As I understand the position, it is perfectly simple. They are giving Lord Derby his opportunity to make the voluntary system supply the men which they consider necessary, but if he does not succeed they will resort to some means of compulsion to get the men, and in doing so they will enlist young unmarried men before they call on the older married men to join. I think that is the position. Why do not the Government make it perfectly clear, in view of the damage which has been done by the impossibility of understanding what is the position of the Government? The sooner they do it the better. Three or four valuable days have been lost simply because people do not know. Men who were going to join are not joining, and married men feel that the pledge which was given is not going to be kept. Let the Colonial Secretary make the strongest declaration he can within the four corners of the statements already made, and he will be doing the greatest service to the voluntary system.

7.0 P.M.

I know the Government think themselves above criticism and look upon everyone "as unable to offer any suggestion. I wonder what they think is the motive of anyone who brings up these suggestions. No one at a time like this thinks of anything but trying to assist the Government in their great task. Any man who, actuated by any private feeling, does anything at a time of national stress like this to injure the work of the Government ought to be regarded as guilty of the basest treason. The Debates in this House has been conducted in a spirit of hopefulness throughout. All criticism has been offered with a view and a desire to help. You laugh at the whimperers. I am proud to be a whimperer. What have they done? Every big step taken since the War started in connection with policy has been forced upon the Government from outside. But for the whimperers, belligerent Germans and Austrians of military age would today be passing over to Germany to join the ranks there with the approval of the Fleet. You signalled to your Fleet to let them go. But for that and the action of external pressure they would be going to-day. We stopped the men of military age from being allowed to join the forces in Germany. That was largely due to the whimperers; largely due, it is only fair to say, to the "Morning Post." That was one point of external pressure. What about making cotton contraband? That was due to the whimperers. It came late in the day, nine months later than it ought to have done. I only mention these matters to show what has been the effect of our attitude. There was the further question, that of enemy aliens. The Judicial Commission has decided that it was dangerous to the interests of the country to allow enemy aliens to be at large. If it is dangerous now, surely it was equally dangerous nine months ago. Then there was the question of allowing gold to be taken out of this country. For nine months after the War started emissaries of Germany came over here and filled their pockets with as much gold as they could carry and took it back to Germany. No body ever stopped them, and it was only when there was an agitation outside against allowing gold to be taken out of the country that the practice was prohibited. Lastly, there was the question of the War Council and a smaller Cabinet. Was not that forced on the Government from outside. It certainly was; even an internal matter of that kind had to be forced on the Government. The Government have no reason to complain about criticism. It has done them good. It represents the opinion of masses of men outside this House who are getting tired of these blunders and think it is time the Government changed their policy. If our criticism could have its reward it will shorten by even a single day or a single hour the terrible tragedy of blood and tears which we are witnessing at the present moment.

The right hon. Gentleman began his speech by picturing to himself what my attitude would have been if, instead of being a member of the Government, I had been criticising it. I can only say, if I had taken up a like attitude to that which the right hon. Gentleman has assumed on this occasion, I do not think the House would have had any reason to complain. But the right hon. Gentleman has not always, if he will allow me to say so, shown himself as reasonable as he has been to-day. I can assure him that the Government, which after all is composed of a number of people with different ideas, do not resent criticism which by any possibility could urge them to do the right thing more quickly, or suggest to them what is the right thing that they ought to do. We do not object to that kind of criticism, and, what is more, I do not think anyone in the Government doubts that a little pressure does no harm to people with the best intentions. Certainly we do not object to criticism of the kind to which we have just listened. The right hon. Gentleman, however, I think made his case a little stronger than was necessary. He implied that every change which he approved has been the result of pressure from outside. That may be true of some things; it certainly is not true of all.

Take the subject of making cotton contraband. I am not now alluding to what took place in the early stages of the War. But the House will remember that for weeks and months before cotton was actually declared contraband there was constant pressure to have this done. I was a member of the Government at that time, and I tried as well as I could to understand the situation. I think I am not wrong in saying it was this: Under the Order in Council our ships had instructions to let no cotton go forward to neutral ports which they had reason to suspect was going to Germany. When cotton was declared contraband our ships had precisely the same instructions. The effect therefore on the quantity of cotton which got into Germany was absolutely nil. The instructions to the ships were the same in both cases, and the cotton was stopped just as much in one case as in the other. That did not end it. There were other considerations to be borne in mind, and those considerations were the effect on public opinion in America. That is the whole thing. During all this time when the Government were supposed to be hesitating, we were not hesitating from any doubt as to cotton being stopped going to Germany, we were only hesitating as to best way of stopping it, having regard to public opinion in America. I believe that that is an absolutely accurate statement of the later stages of that controversy.

Then the right hon. Gentleman said it was owing to pressure that this War Council was formed. It has still to be proved that it is of as much value as is hoped. But it is not true that its formation was due to pressure from outside. From the very moment I was a Member of the Cabinet we were all trying to get something of that kind. A Committee was formed. It was found to be too big, and there was the same dissatisfaction with its working inside the Cabinet as there was outside. It was simply because we felt some change was necessary that the change was made, and I do not think that outside pressure had anything whatever to do with it.

I will try, as far as I can, to deal with the points raised by the right hon. Gentleman in the order in which he put them before the House. The first was as to the Vote of Credit of £400,000,000. He says it is too much, because it deprives the House for too long a time of its right to criticise the Government. But I would remind the House that the Prime Minister, when he introduced this Vote of Credit, himself pointed out the fact that by this means he would get the money to carry on the War to the middle of February. He suggested quite plainly that if the House thought that that was too long a period he was perfectly willing to meet it. It was not suggested, and I am quite sure if the right hon. Gentleman had made the speech then which he has made now, and if the House had shown any desire to shorten the time, the Government would at once have fallen in with the wishes of the House. The reason, I suppose, was this: We have been asked when exactly the House will adjourn. That must depend upon when its business is done, and I know as little as any other Member in regard to that. Neither do I know how long the House will adjourn for. It is quite possible it would suit the convenience of the House better if we were not called upon to begin the consideration of these financial questions at an early period in the year. But I can assure the House there is not a Member of the Government who, for that reason, wished to make the Vote so big, and if the House wishes to discuss the policy of the Government on any subject, the Government certainly, as long as I am a member of it, will be ready to give it that opportunity.

The right hon. Gentleman dealt with the subject of economy, and there I must say I have no fault to find with anything he said. He spoke of several Departments, and he referred to a speech which I made about the Transport Department of the Admiralty. I think I have every reason to be grateful that he did not quote that speech, which showed how strongly I felt at that time that a great deal of money was being uselessly wasted in the way it was being used. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office told the House he was going to speak frankly. I will try, within moderate limits, to do the same. I think any Member of the Cabinet at a time like this must have something of the feeling which was once ascribed in a story to Louis XVI., before the Revolution. He was an absolute monarch, who did whatever he liked in France. He was going through Paris one day, and saw something which he did not approve, and he said, "If I were prefect of police I would not allow that to continue for one moment." As members of the Government, we can only try as far as we can to keep things right, if they are on their right lines, and to correct them if they are on wrong lines. In every Cabinet things are found which are not right, and efforts are made, more or less successfully, to put them right.

My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to the Admiralty explained what the difficulty was in regard to the Transport Department, and that difficulty, as I knew at the time, was that the fighting necessities of the Navy must be the first consideration. Under these circumstances there is an inevitable tendency on the part of people wishing to be on the safe side to have available far more tonnage than is likely to be required, just for fear of some accident occurring. I have found my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty as anxious as any Member in this House to save money in this way. I have made inquiry of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and I can say this to the hon. Baronet who introduced this discussion (Sir A. Williamson), that the Advisory Council of which he spoke has done good, and whether more tonnage is taken now than ought to be taken, a change for the better has been made, and less is being used than would have been used had the Advisory Council not been appointed. A serious effort has been made to reduce the quantity of tonnage. You have to consider the question not merely from the point of view of the good management of a ship, but you have also to hear the other side, the side that is of the Admiralty, who maintain that at every moment, night and day, the Fleet must be in a position of readiness to meet the ships of the enemy. That consideration has to be taken in view, and you can only have a combination of the two if the head of the Department is determined himself not to accept without question everything said by the fighting force, but to ask the reasons for it, and satisfy himself that they are reasonable and have to be met.

Let us come to the next question. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the Retrenchment Committee not having met for a long time. I did not know about that, but I would remind the House that that Committee only dealt with civil Departments, and in any case the savings from that source could not be very great. That is a certainty. I want the House to consider the kind of difficulty with which the Government is faced in dealing with questions of this kind. It is said such inquiry floes not disturb the working of a Department; that is not so. You have to remember that the men who are actually carrying on the work of the War are the men you must cross-examine in order to find out what is being done, and the Government felt, at the time it was first suggested we should go more closely into these matters, that although the expenditure was too high and although we believed much of it was extravagant, yet to put these heads of Departments on their defence while fighting was going on would involve the running of greater risks than allowing the money to be wastefully spent. That was our opinion. But nobody in the Cabinet was any more satisfied with the arrangement than the House of Commons, and, simultaneously with this Retrenchment Committee, a Committee composed of members of the Cabinet has been sitting, and their main object has been to try to devise some method by which, without interfering with the work of these fighting Departments, some real control can be obtained over the expenditure. I cannot tell the House what the proposals are or what we are going to do, but they have submitted proposals to the Cabinet which, I am sure, will be accepted, and the object of those proposals is to introduce into each fighting Department an element of experienced men, drawn from the outside, who will constantly supervise a system of expenditure and try to find out a system which will save the country from any money being wasted in the interests of the country.

That is what we want. We want it just as much as the hon. Member, if it can be done. I have not in the least changed my attitude about the value of business experience in cases of that kind, but, on the other hand, I do not think that the Civil servants are to be despised either from this point of view. As it happened, I have been brought into contact, chiefly on the Pensions Committee, with Sir Charles Harris, the financial expert of the War Office, and I venture to say, for what my judgment is worth, that I would trust him to keep down expenditure as much as any business man in the country. If I had absolute power, what I would do in that Department would be to try to strengthen him and help him with experience from outside, and not to start with the idea that everything he did was wrong and ought to be upset from top to bottom.

The whole question of finance is, in my opinion, one of the most serious with which we have to deal in regard to this War, but one has to approach it with caution. If we have to make speeches pointing out difficulties, even if they were not in the least exaggerated by the right hon. Gentleman, is there not a danger that you will draw the inference, and are there not now many people ready to draw the inference that we cannot afford to keep the fighting force necessary to win the War? I do not like that point of view. As I said, speaking here two days ago, you could not make any greater mistake from a financial point of view than to imagine that you can run your Government on a system which will last for ever. You cannot do that. You have got to risk national bankruptcy and everything else in order to bring this War to a successful conclusion, but that does not mean that we must not do everything we can to keep down expenditure. I am not myself—I know many of my colleagues take a different view—greatly alarmed about the question of exchange. I think that the credit of this country is good, and that some method will be found in the ordinary play of commerce, and, not in any other way, by which people who wish to sell to us and who trust our credit will be able to do it. I am not greatly alarmed on the question of exchange, taking it purely by itself, although I admit it is a very serious problem.

The real thing is our financial stability as a whole. Now we have got into a position which I think is extremely dangerous, and for this reason: As long as we can borrow money freely to any extent that is required that is a fictitious; prosperity spread over the whole country, and, instead of making sacrifices, people are actually better off than they have ever been before. I had a visit the other day from a friend who is a merchant in Glasgow. He told me that Glasgow had never been so prosperous as it is at the present moment. That is all on a false basis, and the moment the time comes when we cannot raise indefinite loans—and we may be sure if the War lasts long that time will come—the moment that time comes, then the whole superstructure disappears, and we have got to find some other way of carrying on the War if it is to be carried on. One of the disadvantages of that, and I think one of the most serious, perhaps, of all, is the scale of wages which is established all over the country. One has some hesitation in speaking about that when you see people, as I know from experience, making very large incomes in business as a result of the War, and very large incomes even after the Excess Profits Tax is taken from them. When you see that, one hesitates to dwell too largely upon the scale of wages throughout the country. After all, it is a question of arithmetic. I have looked into it in regard to the cost of some munitions. The rate of wages we are paying means now, as compared with the old times before the War, that the things necessary for the conduct of the War are costing us three or four times as much as they would have cost if the old conditions had prevailed. That cannot go on either. The difficulty is this: As long as this prosperity, which I regard more or less fictitious, continues, you will not only find people wanting their present rates of wages, but you will find every day that they are wanting increases. If this financial position is to be kept right we have all of us every class, to realise that the present arrangement cannot go on and that those who represent the working classes, as well as those who represent the commercial classes, should set their faces resolutely against any increased pay in any shape or form by the Government for anything that has to be bought in connection with the War.

It is easy to talk in this way. It only shows that we realise the difficulties. How they are to be met I do not know. I do know we have got to stop paying increased cost for what the Government requires. I do know also that when more money is required we shall have to consider very carefully what is the best way to raise it from the point of view of carrying on the War so that it may be brought to a successful conclusion. I know that. I know also that, first of all, as a Government, we have to try our best to keep down expenditure. That is our first duty. I think that as individuals we have also got to recognise that times may be coming which will require the utmost sacrifice from every portion of the people of this country, and that this is no time for extravagance by any class in any shape or form. That is all I have to say on that subject.

When I come to the subjects referred to at the end of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, I find it rather more difficult to say anything. He referred to the Debate raised here two days ago about Lord Derby's scheme. In speaking then I had to speak as trying to express the views of the Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman this afternoon said that what is needed is that the Government should state clearly and exactly what they mean. I heard his statement of what he thought we meant, and, so far as I could make out, it was precisely what I tried to say two days ago. Therefore, so far as I am concerned, and I think so far as the Government are concerned, if the right hon. Gentleman's view is correct, if that is all that is wanted, then it has been said already, and I have nothing more to say in regard to that subject. Now we come to a much more difficult subject. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to two topics which it is not pleasant to talk about, and about which it is not pleasant to think, namely, our position in the Near East as represented both in Serbia and in the Dardanelles. I really do not quite follow his view that anything is to be gained by taking the country into our confidence with regard to those questions at the present time. I really cannot follow him. I can only say this, that as regards Serbia, whatever the fault may be, whether it is entirely the fault of the Government or not, so far as I am concerned, while the position is as it is at present, whatever the criticisms might be, I would not say a single word in defence. You really cannot judge the subject unless you know all the facts. I am not saying there is no ground for criticism; far from it. But I say you cannot judge the subject unless you know all the facts, and most certainly, in my judgment, it would not be wise to tell all the facts at this time. This I do say, that however successful we may be at the end of this War—in spite of what is happening in the Near East, I am more hopeful than I have been for a good many months, looking at the whole tendency of the War, and things are not going so badly with us as they seem to be—but however successful the outcome of the War may be, the British people will never forget and will always remember, with a feeling very much the reverse of pride, that the small countries which we tried to save could not be saved by us, and that whatever the ultimate result may be the sufferings of Belgium and Serbia, which are such as we would have given anything in the world to stop, have befallen them while they were our Allies.

As regards the Dardanelles, the right hon. Gentleman asks that there should be an inquiry. I am sure he would not wish for an inquiry just now. I am sure no one would wish for an inquiry just now. I am sure, so far as I can judge, that any discussion as to the present position at the Dardanelles can do no good, and might do a great deal of harm. I do not think that applies to the same extent to the beginning of the expedition, because that is ancient history and does not affect the present position. I think it is better, if it is possible, that it should be considered as a whole and not chapter by chapter in judging what has been done wrong or not been done wrong. That is all I am going to say, except this, that there is no one in this House who feels more strongly the seriousness of the position out there, and every Member of the House may be sure of this, that in what the Government are doing, or intending to do, they will not be influenced by the idea that having made a mistake, or anything of that kind, they are going to see it out. They will be influenced solely by what, in the best military opinion they can get, they believe to be the wise course.

I am sure the whole House will have listened to the very weighty and impressive statement we have just heard with great gratitude, and with the conviction that such a statement as that, made from this side, will add very greatly to the general confidence of those in this House and the country. If we had had more of such statements possibly there might be less expression of uneasiness than there has been. I regret that the right hon. Gentleman was not able to hold out to me any hope at an earlier period of the day, when I put a question to him with regard to the measures which are being taken to reconstitute the great General Staff of the Army. I asked him then if it was possible that we might hear something from him to-day on the subject. He expressed the opinion—and I can quite understand, from his point of view, the reason for expressing that opinion—that he would prefer that it should be raised when the Prime Minister was in his place. I hope I shall not be deemed guilty of any want of respect to the right hon. Gentleman in raising this question in spite of that answer. I do not intend to deal with it in any spirit of criticism, but rather to endeavour to clear up some of the views and opinions of hon. Members, and also of the public outside, as to what is meant by the great General Staff of the Army upon which so much depends, because there are very great misconceptions on the subject, and possibly I may succeed in mentioning some point which may hereafter be dealt with either by the Prime Minister or by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Tennant). The matter has been touched upon a great deal in the public Press. We have been told that we are in need of a new thinking Department, that there was need of reconstruction of the War Council, and so forth. I will not refer to the remarks which have been made in another place, regrettable, I think, both from the ignorance they displayed and from the lack of taste with which they were put forward. These things are merely like feathers or straws indicating the way the wind blows. The public mind has been directed to this failure, or alleged failure, in a certain Department, and it is as well for us to examine where the failure has been and whether it will be put right. A far more important pronouncement on that subject was made by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson), who, in making a personal statement about a fortnight ago, made use of these very remarkable words:—

Another point in this statement of the right hon. Gentleman was that he very accurately and distinctly stated the relation of policy to military preparation—more accurately, I think, than the Prime Minister did. The Prime Minister's view was that you cannot determine policy by naval and military considerations alone. That really does not touch the question. Naval and military action is merely the expression of policy. Policy must be shaped by a number of considerations—international, economic, domestic, and, in this country, in our exceptional conditions, by the feeling of our great Overseas Dominions. Policy requires to be clearly defined in terms of land and sea power. Military and naval preparation must be developed in accordance with a definite policy in those terms. We have never had any means as yet of bringing policy and military or naval action into direct relation with one another. That has been the subject of innumerable Debates in this House, and great Commissions—the Hartington Commission, for instance, and other inquiries after the South African War. It all turned upon that question of bringing those two factors into immediate relation, and, having defined your policy, then to express it in terms of military and naval action. That is what has been, in my opinion, most singularly lacking in connection with the present War. Examples would not be difficult to give, but I do not wish to appear to be critical on the conduct of this War. What I have wished to get at is some indication of what has now been done to ensure that there will be a direction given to the War based upon that principle which I have enunciated that policy must be expressed in terms of military and naval action, and that alone will bring about success in carrying out a war. We have been told by the Prime Minister that there is a War Committee or Council of five members in the Cabinet, that they are to be in close and constant relation with military and naval officers, and that there is to be some improvement in the General Staff itself. He mentioned to us the names of certain distinguished officers who have lately been appointed, and indicated that there must be a more complete and intimate co-ordination between the Staffs of the various Allied Powers. That is very desirable, but we all know one of the great difficulties with regard to bringing about a closer communication between the Staffs of the Allied Powers is that it is difficult to find members of those Staffs who are able to understand one another owing to the unfortunate lack of officers in our Army who are capable of making themselves understood in other languages.

But a far more important statement was that of the Prime Minister, who said:— things went well. After that the co-ordination between the Services seems to have been lost, and that change, strangely enough, is coincident with the arrival at the War Office of the present Secretary of State for War, who knew nothing of the system. A great machine had been built up, which was working well, and the person who is put in charge of it has no acquaintance with it. It is just as if you took a fireman from the footplate of some passing locomotive and put him in charge of the highly organised machinery of a battleship. He might be the best stoker in the world, but he is unfit to take charge of such a highly complicated machine. The result of the action that I have referred to was a complete change of system at the War Office, and in the administration of that office, as was shown recently by the reply given by my right hon. Friend to a question which I put to him in regard to the Army Council.

The change had this effect, that it destroyed that body which should have been the connecting link between policy and military action. The Defence Committee became merely a committee to which questions were referred. It is interesting to show in that connection that the possibility was forseen so long ago as at the time of the Hartington Commission, that the danger might arise in the form of such a committee as that, to which questions of such great importance have been referred. There is, I think, in the scheme which is now being carried out of a small War Committee of the Cabinet, in direct communication with the military and naval experts, a very fair chance of obtaining greater success than we have had hitherto in the War. But that success depends upon this condition, that these naval and military experts are allowed to have their heads free, and not to be over-powered as the head of the General Staff of the Army has been by a personality assuming the attitude of Commander-in-Chief. Under the reformed War Office conditions which were set up ten years ago, the Commander-in-Chief was abolished in order that the various Departments into which the War Office business was divided should be placed under more fully responsible officers. A Council was set up, of which the Secretary of State for War was the President, and on which he was the representative and the exponent of the policy which his colleagues on that Board were required to carry into effect. Those members of the Army Council—and this is specially laid down and defined in the recommendations of the Esher Committee, upon which that body was formed—had their relative positions to each other defined. They were equals at the Council Board and they were colleagues at that Board. The Secretary of State for War was merely primus inter pares. He was the exponent of policy, and his colleagues were the instruments by which that policy should be carried out. That was the policy at the beginning of the present War, but it no longer exists. We have heard that that Council has become a dead letter. It exists only in name. I receive from time to time communications that the Army Council has decided this, that, or the other, but I know that this is mere office verbiage. That Council really does not exist.

There has been one dominating personality who assumed to himself the office of Commander-in-Chief, and the heads of Departments became, as in the days of the old Commander-in-Chief, his staff officers. That destroys the position which the Chief of a great General Staff ought to have. These officers who were placed at the head of Departments were classed under the reformed War Office according to the order of the importance of their functions, and the first military member of the council was the Chief of the General Staff. This has been abolished. By the recent Order in Council the members of the Army Council now take order of precedence according to the dates of their commissions. Instead of having the Chief of Staff, who is the most important person, placed first, he may be the last under this scheme. That is not the way to realise the importance or to show that there is a realisation in high quarters of the importance of the functions of that office. The importance of those functions have been again and again urged. The Hartington Commission, which was the first to urge the importance of this officer, and charged him with these duties, represented as long ago as 1890 that one of the first conditions should be that he should have his Department under his control, properly staffed and equipped for the special duties they had to perform, and that he should be, above all, free from executive and administrative functions. We have heard in the present Debate from the Financial Secretary to the War Office that one of the last functions that has been given to the Chief of Staff is to sit on a committee of financial control at the War Office. Could anything be more incongruous at this time when you require the thinking power of that Department to be more than ever concentrated upon the ever-changing phases of the present great struggle? Forsooth, this officer, the most important officer, in my opinion, of the whole military hierarchy, is set work to do which any hon. Member of this House might do without previous knowledge or instruction. His real duty is to prepare plans of military operations, to collect and co-ordinate information, and to communicate directly with the First Naval Lord of the Admiralty and with the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, thereby constantly being able to present a picture of the international situation and of the military and naval situation comprehensively to the Cabinet, or to that particular body which may have undertaken the direction of the War.

The effect of this failure to understand the necessity for a strong, powerful, and thoroughly organised General Staff, the thinking machine for the whole direction of the War, is singularly exemplified in the conduct of those enterprises which were referred to by the right hon. Member for Dundee in the statement which he made a few days ago. He gave us some account, which the country had been waiting for for many long months, of the Antwerp Expedition and of the initiation of the Gallipoli Expedition. One could not listen to the right hon. Gentleman without being struck by the complete divorce that there seemed to be between the Intelligence Departments of the Navy and of the Army. He actually told us that it was only within a few days before the expedition actually started for Antwerp that he was called up at midnight to receive from the Secretary of State for War information of what was contemplated.

I would suggest to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that he should not go into this question. The Noble Lord (Lord C. Beresford), who spoke a short time ago from the front Opposition Bench, began upon the same lines and at my instigation he postponed his remarks on that matter. It seems very undesirable in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee and other parties to go into this matter. I suggest, therefore, to the hon. and gallant Member that he might very well wait for a more suitable opportunity.

8.0 P.M.

I was not aware of your ruling in regard to the Noble Lord or I would not have touched upon the subject. My object was not in any way to criticise any individual, but merely to point out what I thought was an example of the failure in our system to bring the thinking organisation of the two different Services closer together. I will not pursue that subject any further more than to say that that was the object which I had in my mind. That remark also applies to the question of the Gallipoli Expedition, and I will not refer to that any further. I seems to me that the great importance—and it is clearly recognised by the Prime Minister—of a strong, well-organised Staff, to act as the advisers of the War Committee, of which he is the Chairman, is a subject upon which this House ought to have something to say. We should like to know what is being done to set up again into its proper position the Department to which the Chief of Staff ought to be the real head, but of which hitherto during the War he has been merely the nominal head. To what extent are the Departments of the War Office to be free to act, not independently, in co-ordination under a head? Who will be directly responsible? These are things which I think are interesting at the present moment. I feel the fullest confidence now that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is again at the War Office, because I have this confidence in him—that though he would be the last person to pose as a military expert, yet he does understand the system of work, by co-ordinating the forces of a number of individual and responsible heads. He understands our British system, and he will understand also the possibilities which exist in the elastic system which was set up ten years ago, of making greater expansion of the function of great Departments, like the War Office. If we had had such an understanding of our machinery in the early part of this War, I do not believe that it would ever have been necessary to set up the Department of Munitions, because the powers of expansion were so great that fresh Departments to deal with these vast requirements involved by the War would have been set on foot.

I do not wish to pursue this subject to excessive length, but merely state what I believe to be a point in which I think the House is greatly interested, and the importance of a General Staff has been recognised so full in all foreign States, by all writers on military, naval, and political questions generally, that I make no apology for putting it forward here again. It seems to have been lost sight of in the hurly-burly of the last fifteen months. We have suddenly had a reactionary movement—a movement backwards when we ought to have been going forward. We have gone back to a system of administration which has been condemned again and again—a highly centralised antique systems—when we ought to have been developing our forces by large extensions of the principles which have been advocated and adopted in other countries. I do not think that I have ever been a pessimist about anything, and certainly I have never been a pessimist in connection with this War. I feel the fullest confidence that we are coming out victorious; but it can only be done rapidly, and with the least loss, both of precious lives and of treasure, if we have a powerful organisation, and a recognition of the necessity for that system of organisation which modern war has required. We have not only to develop the land and sea forces of this country, but we have also got to develop, for a great national struggle like this, all the help from the civil population that we can possibly get, not only in enlisting members of the civilian community into the, Army, but of bringing into the Army all those civilian organisations which are able to be of use; and it is only by having a sound organisation of the Staff at the head of the Army that we can possibly understand and make use of the vast resources which this country affords.

I am not going to follow my hon. and gallant Friend on the subject with which he is so qualified to deal, not only by his service as a soldier, but by the admirable services which he has rendered since the War began as Lieutenant of his county, which are universally acknowledged, admired, and appreciated all over Wales and the West of England. Nor do I propose to follow the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy, who has put the badge of the whimperers into his bonnet and is going to wear it with pride for the rest of his Parliamentary life. I have risen for a different purpose. I do not myself pour or empty any one of the seven vials of criticism on the head of the Government, or of the only member of the Government (Mr. Tennant) who is at present sitting on that bench. I believe, to put it at the very lowest, that the Government have displayed intelligence and patriotism right through this War. The Prime Minister has handsomely acknowledged that mistakes have been made, and I feel sure that the Government will set to work to correct the mistakes whose existence they have themselves admitted. I would ask only this of my right hon. Friend: I want to impress upon him that the Government should co-ordinate and clarify, and somehow or other bring into some compass intelligible to the man in the street what they really do mean about the recruiting of married men. I am not going to open out on this subject. It has been fully discussed. But I wish to add my voice to those that have been raised, and to say that there is very great and very justifiable misunderstanding, and perhaps resentment, on the part of married men, who have been recruited under what they consider to be a pledge which is not now, I understand, maintained. There does appear to me, as a man in the street, to be a considerable discrepancy between the statement made by Lord Derby and the statement made by the Prime Minister when he was heckled from behind the other day. I am not attempting to blame anybody, but I beg to assure my right hon. Friend, as well as the other members of the Government, that in districts with which I am most familiar—and I move about the country a great deal—there is this feeling, and I hope that it will be allayed, by some unambiguous, satisfactory, and absolutely clear and intelligible statement.

The question that I rose to refer to is this: I asked my right hon. Friend if they had had any especial report at the War Office of the action of the 7th Robin Hood Battalion of Sherwood Foresters Nottingham and Derby Regiment—in connection with the taking of the Hohenzollern redoubt. Somewhat to my surprise and disappointment he informed me that the regiment had been in reserve, and that no special report had been received. I can understand no special report being received. When all regiments have behaved with such conspicuous gallantry, it is difficult for those in command to single out any particular one for praise; but when my right hon. Friend says that the Robin Hoods were in reserve, I feel bound to bring to his notice at the earliest possible moment allowed by the rules of the House the fact that they were by no means in reserve, as I understand, and the ordinary man understands, the expression. The colonel himself had been wounded and invalided home, and his second in command, who commanded, Colonel Brewill, whom I saw, says that his regiment fought most gallantly in the forefront of the engagement. The list of the killed and wounded was large, and there were eight privates of that regiment and two from the Lincolnshire Regiment, who on the 19th of October, right through the night until six o'clock next day, held an important portion of the trenches in the Hohenzollern redoubt, from which the enemy was unable the drive them. In fact, they behaved with conspicuous gallantry, quite equal to that which might be displayed by the most experienced troops. Captain Warren, a famous Bisley marksman, has been decorated, and another Robin Hood has been recommended for the Victoria Cross. The loyal city of Nottingham is justly proud of this force, and if my right hon. Friend has any further information, the communication of which is not likely to be disadvantageous from the military point of view, I should be glad if he would let us have it. At a time like this all of us, even the hon. Member for Blackburn, think it most desirable that when a regiment behaves in this way the fact should be reported, because the spirit of emulation among these county regiments is a matter of the first military importance.

I think in general that it would be well if more information could be given which would be distinctly encouraging to the military spirit, because the people can stand a little encouragement, and they are perfectly equal to facing discouragement also. There is always a great temptation at a time like this, when great events are in progress, for a Member to expatiate on them, and to state his own opinion. I do not think that I have ever spoken for five consecutive minutes since the War began, and I hope that I shall not break that record to-day. Otherwise I should feel tempted to say a few words in regard to the action of Lord Haldane, as Secretary of State for War, when I sat behind him, and knew how he fought to maintain our Army in circumstances of very great difficulty. All the reductions which were effected were the result of his party's policy, and all through he laboured to reduce the reductions, and therefore he is entitled, even for one who, like myself, regarded them with the utmost dismay at the time, to be honoured for what he did; and whatever may be the public impression upon that matter at the present moment, I should consider it a mean thing, when he is attacked in this House in this manner, if I did not take the opportunity of stating that which happened, to my own knowledge, that he did not willingly reduce the Army, but that that was the policy of his party, and that he struggled against it. I was the Whip of the Liberal Imperialists, and had the best means of knowing what happened at the time, and I regret to think that these attacks should now be made.

I intervene for a few moments in order to elicit from the Undersecretary for War a statement in regard to the changed attitude of the Government in reference to the enlistment of medical students. The right hon. Gentleman gave the official view of this matter in reply to a question in this House on the 21st of June last. He then said:— therefore it is our duty to remember the gravity of these problems. I submit that in the new action of the War Office they are quite unnecessarily raising very serious problems in the future, and they are doing that without in any way aiding or furthering the prosecution of the War. I suppose that the present attitude of the War Office is due to the influence of Lord Derby upon them, because I gather that at the time, even the day after the answer was given that I have just quoted, a small deputation waited upon Lord Derby at the War Office to ascertain his views in regard to enlistment, and Lord Derby gave to the deputation a very emphatic reply. He said:— I should like to say that his immediate importance is as of great value to the State as his prospective. The Army has made a request for 2,000 or 3,000 doctors to be supplied about the middle of January, and it is extremely difficult, I understand, to see where those additional men can be obtained. At Question Time to-day the right hon. Member for St. Pancras raised the point of the delay in dealing with recruits at certain London recruiting stations. I believe that in very considerable measure it is due to the policy which has been adopted. I have seen in the newspapers of various parts of the country complaints about the great delay which takes place in getting recruits medically examined. I remember men of the medical profession writing to the newspapers expressing the anxiety of the profession about the appeal to students of the first, second and third years. I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman is well aware of their views. Sir John Collie wrote to the "Times" newspaper in regard to this matter, and among other things he pointed out the great decline in the number of entrants for the medical course at certain London hospitals. He stated that the number of medical students at Cambridge University this year was forty-one as compared with 116 in the year 1913. In regard to St. Thomas' Hospital, he says the number was forty-five below the average, so that it appeared that the number of doctors called upon to serve in the New Army in process of formation is bound to be a large one, and, appreciating that, the writer goes on to mention that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and even Germany and Austria, have recalled medical students from the combatant ranks.

If this policy of feeding the ranks with medical students is going to be pursued, the situation in two or three years time will be that those who have entered the Army will not return to their course of training after the War is over. A number of them will never come back at all, and the result may be that in two or three years time there will be no new entrants at all into the medical profession. Dr. Shipley points out, in a letter to the "Times," that very often epidemics follow a war, and that if an epidemic were to break out among the civil population of this country at the present time, there are not sufficient medical men in the country to deal with it. There is then the question of infantile mortality, and it is the fact that there has been during the last twelve or eighteen months a most painful increase in the infantile death rate. Although I do not say that that is altogether due to the difficulty of getting doctors, and to the shortage of doctors, I think there is no doubt that it is to some extent due to that cause. I would, therefore, in the interests not only of the Army, which is likely to require more doctors in the future, but also in the interests of the civil population, ask the War Office to reconsider their attitude on this question. The number of students of the first, second and third years who will be available for military service is so small that if they were to enlist they would have no appreciable effect whatever in helping us to win this War, whereas they would be a very serious loss otherwise. In view of these considerations, I do ask the War Office to reconsider their attitude.

The hon. Member (Sir J. D. Rees) has asked me to convey to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister his strong hope that he may clarify what apparently is now turgid in the minds of the people of the country with regard to his statement as to the position of married men in relation to recruiting. I will certainly do so, but at the same time I should like to say that I think there has been a great deal of misapprehension, and unnecessary misapprehension, on this subject. I do not want to make it more difficult for people who come after me, and therefore I will not delimit the frontiers any more, since one only makes it the more difficult, rather than easier, for those whose final delimitation is required. May I say how pleased I was to hear what my hon. Friend said with regard to the ex-Secretary of State for War; I mean Lord Haldane? Anyone who has had knowledge of the work which he did in the Army, and particularly in the organisation of the War Office, can only echo what the Prime Minister said in one sentence in reply to my hon. Friend, and that is that he rendered "inestimable service." With regard to the Robin Hood, or 7th Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters, it gives me very great pleasure to corroborate everything which my hon. Friend has said of that 7th Battalion. Unfortunately I have no official information, and I am only able to corroborate it from what I have seen in the public Press. I am very glad to be in a position to congratulate Captain Warren on the distinction which he has won for conspicuous gallantry in the field, and I am certain that all the gallant officers, non-commissioned officers and men are deserving of the utmost praise for the fine spirit and dauntless valour they showed on that occasion.

I come to the remarks of the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden), who has made a very weighty appeal to me to reconsider the decision which has been come to in the course of the last two or three months. I will be quite frank. I am quite sure the hon. Member will acquit me of anything in the nature of saying one thing one day and another thing on another day without announcing it as a change of mind. I may point out that the position in June was a somewhat different position from the position in October or November. The difficulties which we conceived in supplying men for the Army and the difficulties which we saw in getting good officers to command those men are factors which I should like my hon. Friend to bear in mind. My hon. Friend has said that in coming to this conclusion we do so on the influence of Lord Derby. I have a great regard for the opinion of Lord Derby, but it was not at all in relation to any influence of his that this was done. I see the hon. Member for London University (Sir P. Magnus) present, and I think he will bear me out in this. I gave an answer, and the Secretary of State gave an answer to correspondence, and the hon. Member for Blackburn asks how it was that the decision was not in accordance with the answer which I gave to a question in June, nor was it. It was, therefore, really my Noble Friend Lord Kitchener who decided about the fourth and fifth year students long before Lord Derby came to the War Office. That is, however, what I may call a minor point. The hon. Gentleman said that by this decision we were raising unnecessarily new problems of great difficulty which would come up for solution one or two years after the War is over. I quite agree with him that the problems, probably almost insoluable problems, that will be raised for two or three years after the War will exercise the judgment of statesmen, and require all the ingenuity and all the statecraft of the whole of us to deal with When he says that we are unnecessarily raising new problems I really do join issue, and I repeat what I said in that answer, namely, that our duty is to win this War first. My hon. Friend does not think that these medical students are of real importance in the enormous Army which we are raising. Medical students, first of all, are men of imagination and of splendid physique. Everyone who knows anything about them knows that they are full of pranks, full of high spirits, full of activity, both mental and physical, and that they are just the kind of fellows to make the finest officers. I suggest, as we are undoubtedly finding ourselves coming to the end of what is called that class of officer, the man who commands at once allegiance from his fellow men, as we are arriving at the end of that class, I would ask my right hon. Friend to allow us to proceed upon the policy I have announced, which is to recommend first, second, and third-year students to enter the Army.

I can quite understand that there are fewer young men entering the medical schools in the universities at the present moment, but I do not think that that is due at all to any disinclination to embark upon the splendid and noble study of medicine. On the contrary, it is merely a symptom of what is seen throughout the whole of the universities to-day, since you simply cannot get young men to take a two or three or four years' course, as they are all looking forward to joining the combatant ranks of the country, and small blame to them, I say. Therefore I do not think my hon. Friend ought to be alarmed on this score. I quite agree with him that there may be after the War is over difficulty in finding a sufficient number of doctors. I hope, however, very much, that the whole of these young men will not be annihilated, and that a very large proportion of them will resume their studies, and enter upon the profession which they have chosen after the War is over. But, although I dare say it is not for one in my position to say, "sufficient for the day is the evil thereof," we have really to do everything in our power to bring all the best material we can into the Army in order to win this War. I really am sorry not to be able to meet my hon. Friend's view, because he has brought very strong arguments to bear upon it, and he put them forward with that moderation for which he is well known in this House, and they had great effect on my mind. I honestly say that I regret that, as at present advised, I do not see how I can meet my hon. Friend's view in that respect. As I do not see in his place my hon. and gallant Friend who delivered a lecture on the General Staff, I think I may be exonerated from replying to his speech. This is the third evening in one week on which I have had to address green benches, principally vacant, but I can understand hon. Gentlemen not being desirous of waiting until it should be my turn to answer their various questions. That being so, and as I have a very urgent letter from the War Office, which compels me to go to deal with important business, I would ask to be allowed not to reply to that speech.

I agree with nearly every word which has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman. I know quite well that young military students are eager to join His Majesty's Forces, but I know also, as a fact, that the effect of so many medical students joining the Forces will cause a considerable shortage of medical men some-years hence. The only thing I ask the right hon. Gentleman to do at present is to consider whether the exemption which I understand he and the Secretary of State for War are disposed to give to fourth and fifth year men should not be extended to third year students. It would not make much difference, but the third year students, if they were exempted, would add considerably in the course of two or three years to the number of medical men who would be ready to take the places of our doctors. If he could make a concession of that kind exempting third-year students from the necessity or obligation to join His Majesty's Forces, the views of many would be adequately met.

I shall be very glad to consider that. I cannot say more.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

Indian Civil Service (Temporary Provisions) Bill [Lords]

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

I think I ought to give an explanation, which need be only a brief one, of the provisions of this Bill which comes down to us from another place. It is a war measure arising entirely out of the conditions provoked by the War, and limited in its duration to the time of the War and such time thereafter as may enable us to recover from the particular difficulties which the state of war arouses. The Act of 1858 provides that admission to the Indian Civil Service is to be by open competitive examination, held by the Civil Service Commissioners under rules laid down by the Secretary of State in Council. Under normal conditions, it would never have occurred to me, or to anyone else, to interfere with that system of general open competition, but the War has induced conditions which require an alteration for the time being. All the most active and most energetic of our young men from school or college or from civil life have joined or are joining the Colours. Many of those who have already passed the Civil Service examination, and were going through their year of probation here before going out to India, desired to join the Forces, though most of them had to be restrained by the Secretary of State from doing so.

It is perfectly clear that under these circumstances, when every young man of public spirit, energy, and good physique feels it his first duty to serve with the Colours, it would be futile to say that you could have the same competition at that examination as you would have in normal times. The number of candidates is restricted, the quality is affected, and I am sure I shall carry the House with me when I say that to proceed to fill all the vacant places by the ordinary method of competitive examination not only would not be fair to those who, setting aside what they had intended to be the career of their life, give themselves to the service of the country in this crisis by joining the armed Forces, but we could not hope in these circumstances to fill all the places satisfactorily. In these circumstances it became necessary for us to consider what steps we should take. Various proposals were put before us and considered by us. One was to grant an extension of the age limit, which would enable men to sit for the examination at a later age than under ordinary circumstances would be allowed. That would or might be insufficient to meet the cases of men actually serving, and it would not provide the full competition, which cannot be obtained while the War lasts, and the most active and energetic naturally turn to the ranks of the combatant Forces. Another suggestion that we had under consideration was that, suspending the examination for the time, we should allow marks for service to candi- dates who had served in the field. That would have been, I think, of doubtful legality without legislation, and that also would scarcely have met the case. Accordingly, after full consideration, and after consultation with the Civil Service Commissioners and other authorities, my Noble Friend Lord Islington introduced in another place the Bill which I am now asking the House to read a second time.

The Bill provides for a partial suspension of the statutory condition that admission to the Civil Service shall be only by open competitive examination. It is proposed that not less than one-fourth of the vacancies occurring during the period for which the Bill is in force shall still be filled by public competition; not necessarily, I would add, one-fourth in each year, but one-fourth for the whole period of the War. As regards the remainder, the Bill provides that the Secretary of State in Council may, with the assistance of the Civil Service Commissioners, frame rules providing for the admission and appointment to the Indian Civil Service without the statutory competition and examination. I have been speaking as to the conditions which, for reasons familiar to the House, affect the candidates of European birth and which do not affect Indian candidates in the same way. They have not the same opportunities of serving with the Colours that Englishmen, Scotsmen, Irishmen, or Europeans of British birth have at the present time, and it is necessary, while providing for the exceptional circumstances of the War, not to do any injustice to Indian-born candidates. It may be urged that as the number of European candidates who compete will necessarily be restricted while the War lasts, the chances of the Indian candidates will, pro tanto, be increased. I think that is true, but I do not think it is a sufficient protection.

Accordingly it is intended, under the rules that the Secretary of State in Council has to frame, in accordance with the provisions of this Bill—and which will in due course be laid before Parliament—to preserve to the Indians the same proportion of nominations as they have obtained in previous years in the open competition. If, owing to the limitation of the number of vacancies offered in open competition, they secure fewer places than on an average they are shown to have done in recent years, it is proposed that enough Indians should be nominated to the service by the Secretary of State in Council to bring that number up to the average. In their case the natural procedure, and one which I propose to follow, would be to select Indians next upon the list of the competition, but unsuccessful, if they have attained the necessary and normal standard. It is not proposed that in their case, any more than in the other matter which I have mentioned, the Secretary of State should be bound to make the proportion good year by year. He will make it good over the whole period. If in any given year they obtain less than their normal number of places, and if in that year there are among the unsuccessful Indian candidates men who are up to the standard of any normal year and who in the number of vacancies naturally offered in the normal year would have been qualified, then I should propose—and I think anybody who holds my position during the currency of the Act will propose—to nominate those men. But if in a given year there were no candidates of the necessary standard, then the Secretary of State in Council is not bound to make good this proportion in that particular year.. He can hold it over for another year, when the candidates will have achieved a higher average. I hope what I have said will make clear to the House, and to Indians that we have been jealous of the interests of Indian candidates; that we are determined to see that they have a full measure of justice, and are not prejudiced by the temporary necessity for infringing the system of open competition.

I return to the candidates of European birth. It is proposed that outside those who may still obtain places under the restricted competition which will be held year by year no appointments should be made—I hope it will be not necessary to make any. It is certainly not necessary at present—it is proposed that none should be made until the conclusion of the War. Then it will be open to anyone who was preparing himself for the Indian Civil Service, and who looked forward to that as his career, to apply for a nomination. The first stage will be that the Secretary of State should, with the advice and assistance of the Civil Service Commissioners, satisfy himself in such a manner as may be prescribed by the rules that the persons who apply possess the necessary educational qualifications. Some of these men who were on the point of sitting for their examination had very nearly or had completed their education. Others had left to join the Colours at an earlier stage. It is quite clear that you cannot, with any possibility of fairness, take all those men when they come back to civil life at the conclusion of the War and treat them as if they were boys and young men fresh from school and college, and set them down to a competitive examination in knowledge, much of which will have become rusty in the different life which they have been leading. All we shall require in the first stage will be that the Secretary of State, on the advice of the Civil Service Commissioners, shall be satisfied that they have obtained a necessary minimum standard of education. When that has been ascertained, their applications will be remitted to the Committee which will be appointed to advise the Secretary of State. I do not think it will be necessary to make any such selection till the War is over. If that be so, it is clearly in the interests of everyone concerned that neither the Committee which is to select them, nor the exact rules under which they are selected, should be framed until we know what the duration of the War has been and the circumstances with which we have to deal.

If I am responsible—and I think I may say the same for anybody who may hold my place when that time comes—it would be my desire to get the strongest Committee that I could, a Committee which would not be a mere India Office Committee, but should represent a knowledge of India and of the conditions and qualifications which are necessary in men who enter the Indian Civil Service. It should contain representatives of the universities and of the great schools, at any rate representatives of the educational system, not of a part of the United Kingdom only, but of all parts of the United Kingdom. Having got the strongest Committee which the Secretary of State at the time can find, I am quite confident that he will only be too glad to leave the selection of individual candidates to that Committee, and to act upon the recommendations which they make. The House of Commons is rightly jealous of anything that looks like an increase of patronage on the part of Ministers, and rightly jealous of any infringement of the system of public competition, which, with all its defects, has proved itself to be on the whole, I think, the best by which we can recruit the ordinary service of the country. But I cannot conceive of anyone in my position desiring to take upon himself the invidious task of deciding between individuals as to which is the most fit for entering into a service of this kind, or interfering beyond the point contemplated by the Bill, and by the rules which will have to be framed under the Bill, when he appoints the strongest Commmittee he can to advise him, and, as I say, having appointed that Committee, abides by their advice. It is proposed that the rules to be made under the Bill shall provide that no candidate of European birth shall be eligible for selection in this way who has not been on active service with the Forces of the Crown. Some minimum time of active service will have to be prescribed. Perhaps other conditions may be necessary. It is not possible, I think, to lay those down at this moment; but it will be laid down that no one shall come into the Indian Civil Service in this way unless he has served with the Forces of the Crown. With that qualification I imagine that the Committee of Selection, when they interview candidates, will have before them the school or college record of the candidates, and the military records of the candidates, and I do not doubt that in that way they will be able to make a selection which will maintain the high tradition of the service to which these men are to be appointed.

I think that I have dealt with all the questions which I ought to bring to the notice of the House, but I shall, of course, be glad to supplement what I have said if necessary. But if I have made the purpose and the methods contemplated by the Bill clear to the House, I feel pretty confident that there will be no opposition in principle to the measure which I ask the House to read a second time. Indeed, when once it is ascertained that no injustice will be done to Indian candidates, I cannot conceive that anyone would desire that the claims of those who, in the present circumstances, would have been their competitors at the ordinary examination should be forfeited because those men have responded to the call to the Colours, or that those men, by reason of the services they are now rendering to the country with the Forces, should be debarred from the career for which they studied and which they wish to enter. I hope the House will give the Bill a Second Reading, and give that Second Reading with general goodwill and assent.

9.0 P.M.

I welcome this Bill most cordially. The only criticism I could offer would be that it does not go far enough. I should like to say that I am sorry the Secretary of State for India has not found it possible to confine the selection of candidates to men who have served in the War laid down in the Bill itself, instead of being left to the rules, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not possible even yet to include this in the Bill, and not leave it entirely to the rules, as he proposes. There is a second point I would like to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman, and that is that under the rules, when they are issued later on, full provision will be made to include as many as possible of those patriotic Indians who have abandoned their studies, not only for the Indian Civil Service, but for law, medicine, engineering, and other professions, and have put their private interests aside to serve the country in this War. There are many Indian students, not only serving the country at the front, but serving in hospitals and in various other ways during the War, who gave up their studies on purpose to serve their country in the best way they could. These men, I must say, are more deserving of appointment to the Indian Civil Service than those men who have remained behind to cram for the examination and who failed to give the personal service in the War that their competitors and others so freely gave, and I trust they will be considered eligible for nomination. I notice in India a cry has been raised that this Bill may possibly be a bar to Indians who are now cramming to pass the examination to get into the Indian Civil Service. I consider that more than ample provision has been made for these men by retaining one-fourth of the appointments for them; in fact, personally, I should have liked to have seen that proportion less. It is not the product of mere competitive examination that makes the best Civil servant in India. I remember years ago coming across a district officer belonging to the Civil Service in India. That man was a great mathematician who passed at the top of the list, and who told me the greatest ambition of his life was to be a professor of mathematics. What possible interest could that man take in his district or the people of his district? His interests were entirely separated from them. It is not the mere professor we want for the Indian Civil Service. We want the man of ordinary common sense who can adapt himself to his surroundings and enter into the feelings and interests of the people committed to his charge, and I say the man in the present War, whether British or Indian, who has lived in the trenches with the Sepoys and has learnt to love them is much better for the Indian Civil Service than the mere product of the examination.

I hope this Bill will give India the chance of getting a certain number of men into the Service who have faced the realities of life, and have learnt to know and appreciate the Indian Sepoy by close and constant intercourse with him on active service. It is for this reason that I rejoice to think special provision is being made both for Britishers and Indians who have thrown up their studies in England for service in the War. With reference to those British candidates who may happen to be at the present moment serving with British battalions in the field, I would suggest, if I may, that some steps should be taken to have those men transferred from British battalions to Indian battalions, so that they may obtain as soon as possible that personal touch with the Indian Sepoy which would be such an advantage to them in future years, when they are to serve in India. The knowledge and experience those men will gain serving in the trenches will be of much more value to them hereafter than any examination. Another class that ought to receive special consideration are those members of the Imperial Cadet Corps in India who have served in. the War. There are several serving at the Front. They have been all through the War, and they are a special class. I trust that if any of those young Imperial Cadet Corps officers desire a commission in the Indian service they may be nominated without having to pass any further examination. How could any man prove himself better qualified for such a post than by showing that he has fought for India and the Empire? I want to see the fullest proportion of Indians in the Indian Civil Service, but I wish to see them all of proved worth, and not mere products of an examination.

I think the Bill before the House, although temporary and based on an emergency, raises a very serious question, and I wish that we had a bigger House this evening. It raises again the question of the patronage of India, which for 150 years has from time to time been the subject of important Debates in this House. It alters the Statute Law which deals with many of those old Debates and which was very recently codified in the Statute passed this Session. Taking it as a measure of urgency, a result of the violation of Belgium, I agree very much with what the Secretary of State for India has said. So far as I can make out, most of the youth of the Kingdom have gone to the War, and the same may be said of many of the scholarly classes in the Dominions and in India itself. I was told by the Master of Charterhouse that the boys there go off as soon as they have passed the sixth form to try and get commissions. I was in Melrose, in Roxburgh, the other day, where there is an important secondary school, and the master told me he had examined the careers of a lot of his own boys, and he had found that nearly all of them had entered the fighting service. We saw in the papers yesterday that the University of Cambridge is going to postpone its examination for the degree of Bachelor of Arts, and all these facts go to show that if a competitive examination were held during the War, the number of candidates would be few, and most of them not the virile youth who have already been taken out of the country. We have heard from the Secretary of State for India how the difficulty is to be surmounted. It seems to me that the provision dealing with the admission of native gentlemen by means of a restricted competitive examination will provide well for them, and I need hardly remind the House that it has long been the policy of both great parties, and I believe of the Labour party and the Irish, that Indian gentlemen should be well represented in the Indian Civil Service.

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on having thought out an arrangement which I think will meet the wishes of those classes concerned, and I think we ought to do all that we can for them. No doubt at the end of the War there will be a good many candidates coming forward for those places, which are very fine things, in the opinion of all connected with India. Therefore it will be necessary to have a sifting process, in order to keep up the high quality. I lay great stress on high educational qualifications, and so did the East India Company. As far back as a hundred years ago, the Governor-General used to go to present the prizes at Calcutta, and for the last fifty years the Universities in this country have done all they could to increase the qualifications for the young men presenting themselves for the Civil Service. Therefore I think it is of vital importance that the Civil Service Commission should be well represented in making selections. We have heard that they are first to satisfy themselves as to reasonable educational requirements. I think it would be difficult, under the circumstances which have been explained, to adhere to any particularly high standard, but, at the same time, in sending on the list to those who will have to make the ultimate recommendations and choice, I hope that these Commissioners will examine the relative merits, educationally considered, of the candidates, and that they will ascertain the character and quality of intellect that each man has by means of such indications of learning as he may be able to show.

I notice from the Indian newspapers that a good deal of criticism has been directed towards keeping up a high educational standard. Besides the ordinary scholarship, I think any merit shown by the candidates during their term of service in the Navy or the Army should count. If, for example, anyone has passed in a foreign language in order to prepare himself for the Staff College, or if he is serving in India and has answered the requirements of the Government of India by passing in any of the vernacular languages, or if he has passed any other military or naval examination, all those points should be considered in his favour. I agree that bookworms are not particularly needed in India, but I would deny that the existing competition system has provided as many or any more than it has for the Royal Engineers, or the Artillery, or the Home Civil Service, while it has, I think, secured a high standard of ability. It is one of the peculiarities of the Indian Civil Service that while there are only about 1,200, all counted, they have not only to provide a great number of revenue collectors, magistrates, and diplomatists, but as they go on they have to fill positions which in this country are filled by statesmen or by great lawyers, or by the great heads of departments in the great Civil Service, and the educational qualifications in a very great many cases begin to tell early. I would not, therefore, like to have any disparagement thrown upon them. Learning has been the tradition of the service, and the critics in the Indian newspapers are insisting upon it. It seems to me in accordance with national justice that at a time of national strain and great danger the utmost care should be taken that the scholars who have gone to the wars should lose none of the chances which they would have obtained if they had been in ordinary civil life coming up from the colleges and schools for the examinations. We shall all agree about that. A knowledge of the military art is likely at certain times of emergency to be of great use in the Indian Empire. Several of my colleagues in Burmah were shot down in the last Burmese war, and the same kind of thing often goes on on the Indian frontier. I remember one Civil servant who had to entrench himself, and he did so for three days in Lower Burmah. I would lay great stress upon the importance of the presence upon the Committee of one of the Civil Service Commissioners.

I think I mentioned, if I did not I ought to have mentioned, that certainly a Committee of the kind I was sketching should contain a representative of the Civil Service Commission.

The right hon. Gentleman came very near saying the same thing, and it encouraged me to make my last remark. During the many years existence of the Civil Service Commissioners I am not aware that any charge of partiality or of carelessness has been adduced against them. The Civil Service Commissioners will be able to estimate and assay the relative values of scholarships, degrees, diplomas, and other indications of academic achievements, while the qualifications of the men in the field, through the passing of examinations in the Navy or the Army, will appear upon the certificates which the candidates will doubtless hand in. We have to consider in this Bill two things. Above all, it is necessary to secure impartiality, and next to that we ought to get the utmost talent that the nation and the Dominions afford. We ought to draw the net wide enough, and to open the chances to all subjects of the Crown that have the necessary qualifications. I am glad to hear from the Secretary of State that not only will the great public schools, and particularly the English universities, be represented, but that Scotland may have a representative who will understand her educated youth, and probably any Irish or Welsh Members who may be listening will have the same wish that they should be fully represented. Otherwise, I am afraid that any committee that may be assembled in London will at once begin to think of the public schools in England. There are not many of those schools in Scotland. I do not know what the case may be in Wales. I frankly admit that the public schoolboy of England is a fine generous fellow, full of courage, and with a great deal of ability to command. But in other parts of the United Kingdom another kind of boy is produced who has shown his merits in India, especially since the time of George III., when the Earl of Bute provided Scots men for the Army, Navy, and other Departments of the State. If I could be certain that the Secretary of State for India in Council would always act as the Earl of Bute did, I should take no objection on the ground of jobbery.

Do these considerations arise on a Bill making temporary provision for a war emergency?

I will say no more on that subject. I come to the indication as to who are to be preferred by means of this method of choice. I do not know that we could have anything better than an accomplished Committee knowing the scholastic system of this Kingdom, aided by the Civil Service Commission. I did not understand the right hon. Gentleman to confine the selection to men that have actually been in campaigns. Many students were called out in the mobilisation, and the colleges and their parents lost all control of them. They have not been able to return to their studies, and it will be their misfortune if, during the War, they should not be carried into the active sphere of fighting. Their case requires careful attention lest injustice be done to them. I would ask what will be the result of this mode of selection? I anticipate that the candidates appointed under the new system will be very much like the military civilians appointed by the Viceroy, or the local Governments, from the Indian Army. They choose lieutenants or captains and put them into purely civil appointments, sometimes associated with the command of a little battalion belonging to a native State These gentlemen taken from the Indian Army become practically purely civil officers. In that capacity many of them win distinction and their praises are sounded by all the winds. If men of that capacity are obtained there will not be much to complain of.

Under the scheme stated by the right hon. Gentleman we may get the ordinary modicum of military knowledge which these military civilians have when they transfer to civil employment; whereas the candidates who have fought in a campaign would bring in a great deal more than that military knowledge. That is so much to the good. If, as I hope, the Civil Service Commissioners will use the same astuteness and the same impartiality as before, we shall also have those qualifications in intellect which are indicated in their earlier career. In the very worst case, if they do not prove equal to the ordinary work in India, the Governor-General in Council can easily put them into places where he usually puts officers whom he takes straight from the Indian Army. In order to attract talent in all directions, not only in every part of the Kingdom, but in every class, the utmost care should be taken that those pupils who go from the board schools by means of education into the higher institutions should have the same chances as those who belong to what I may call the richer classes. Having considered this Bill as carefully as I could and taken such advice as I could get, I do without demur ask the House to concur in unanimously reading it a second time.

I agree so entirely with every word which has fallen from the last speaker that it will not be necessary for me to detain the House at any length. I must own that, although recognising that this was an emergency. Bill, when I read it I was unable to understand why it was necessary to set aside the competitive system by means of which, since the year 1858, candidates had been selected for the Indian Civil Service, and why it was necessary to make so great a change in the method of appointing persons occupying these positions. I agree with the last speaker that the competitive system has proved successful in giving to India a set of servants who have reflected credit on their country, and, in the discharge of their duty, have given very considerable satisfaction. In looking through this Bill I was unable to see why, even although it is an emergency measure, so drastic a change in the method of appointment is to be introduced. The Secretary for India has supplied the information, and I very much regret that the Bill does not contain some of the proposals which I understand are to be included in the rules to be prepared later on.

I certainly should have thought it was an essential part of a Bill of this kind— which I understand is to be in operation only during the period of the War, and at most two years afterwards—that no appointment under this new system will be made except to persons who have served some time in His Majesty's Forces. But no such Clause is to be found in the Bill. There was one other condition which was explained by the right hon. Gentleman which, in my opinion, ought also to have been put into the Bill, and that is that no appointment is to be made during the period of the War. These seem to be essential parts of the Bill which ought not to be left to the regulations. The Bill itself should provide, first, that no appointment shall be made during the period of the War, and, secondly, that no person shall be appointed to serve under these extraordinary and exceptional conditions unless he has for some time been in His Majesty's Forces. I would suggest that when the Bill goes into Committee Clauses might be introduced to that effect, so as to make the measure more generally intelligible, and so as to make it express more clearly what is in the mind of the Secretary of State.

The only other point which I want to emphasise is that there is nothing in the Bill to indicate that a Committee such as that referred to by the right hon. Gentleman is to be appointed. The Bill states that the Secretary of State in Council may, on the advice of, and with the assistance of, the Civil Service Commissioners, make rules to provide for these appointments. But there is nothing in the Bill itself showing that a Committee, such as that referred to by the right hon. Gentleman, will be appointed, and that that Committee will make recommendations to the Secretary of State in Council as to the most fitting persons to be appointed. I understand the right hon. Gentleman desires that those who fill these important offices shall be men who have had a good education, wherever it may have been obatined, and that they shall have had the additional advantage of having obtained practical experience by serving with the Forces of the Crown. I agree entirely with what the last speaker said as to constituting the Committee which is to make these recommendations in such a manner as to render it representative of different classes in the community. It would not be sufficient, for instance, if only the two older universiies were represented upon that Committee. I agree that the universities of Scotland should certainly be represented, and it is equally important, perhaps more important, that the University of London, which is a distinctly democratic university, should be represented on a Committee of this kind, in order that no favouritism whatever shall be given to the sons of gentlemen occupying higher positions than others who might, nevertheless, be equally competent and capable of occupying these positions. I have not the slightest desire to oppose in any way the Second Reading of this Bill. I know how important it is under the circumstances that the competitive system should be temporarily set aside, but, of course, had it not been for the conditions contained in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman but not included in the Bill, namely, that the suspension was to be only for the period of the War and for such persons as have served in His Majesty's Forces, I certainly should have been obliged to oppose any measure which substituted appointment by patronage for the appointment by results of competitive examination which has been in force since 1858. I sincerely trust that the right hon. Gentleman may find it possible not only to give assurances but, if necessary, to add Clauses to this Bill to make quite clear what the intention is.

My hon. Friend opposite (Sir J. Jardine) is, like myself, a professional Indian Civil servant. We are the only two in the House. My hon. and gallant Friend behind me (Colonel Yate) is a soldier, but I think my hon. and gallant Friend has expressed the feeling of the Civil Service perhaps even more accurately than my hon. Friend opposite. He did not fear, and I do not fear, this temporary breach in the examination system. I wish that that breach was going to be a little larger and last a little longer. I speak here with the most profound impartiality. I suppose my hon. Friend opposite, like myself, was examined to rags. Nobody has been more examined than I have been, and nobody has more revenged those injuries by examining other people. I do not suppose that because of this examining my hon. Friend and I would claim to be better men than my hon. and gallant Friend, who is not only a distinguished soldier, but one who has filled with the highest distinction Civil appointments. The case we see here to-day is the case represented everywhere. That is why I welcome the Bill. I believe the men who will come into the Indian Civil Service under this Bill will be the very best men it has ever had. I wish similar provision could be made not only as regards natives of Europe, but also as regards natives of India, that they might come under the Bill. I wish that not only the writers, who are far more vocal than their numbers or even their merits justify, but the fighters should come under this Bill. I believe they would make admirable Civil servants, such gentlemen as those who came here in great numbers this morning, when I was helpful in showing them the House. It was in olden days supposed that there was some incompatibility between writing and fighting, and, if I may venture it, I would quote, like the Home Secretary did the other day, from Homer, from the speech made by Achilles, who said:—

There is now no difference between the writer and the fighter. It is admitted of the native of Europe who can fight that he is, perhaps, all the better Civil servant for that. Why should not that be the case with regard to India? If we had another strain among them, a fighting strain, if some of them were selected by the Secretary of State for India in the same way as he is going to select the natives of Europe, I believe he would get a better class of man than he is going to get by merely taking, as he is under this Bill, the erudite young gentlemen who have abandoned the ways and customs of their country and come over here to be as much like ourselves as possible, whereas they would be admirable people if they would stick to their own characteristics. As to the criticism made upon this Bill in so far as it increases the patronage of the Secretary of State, I venture to remind the House of a fact which with which not all of its members are familiar as we who have served in Indian affairs, that the Secretary of State for India is peculiarly qualified to exercise patronage of this sort. No other Minister is at all in the same position. He is not Secretary of State for India, but Secretary of State for India in Council. There are extremely important acts he may take it upon himself to do, but not in regard to matters like these. He is surrounded by an admirable Council, consisting of Indian Civil servants, who are natives of Europe and natives of India. Nobody can be more qualified to exercise that patronage than he will be with the advice of the Indian Civil Service Commissioners. They are a very able body, perfectly well able to assist him, although I did hear one of them misquote Tacitus in this House. They do not examine themselves, they select the examiners. It becomes me to think that they are a good body, because they have several times selected me. They generally exercise that function with wisdom and discretion.

No, it was not. Tacitus is a deceased gentleman. There is no ground for being jealous of the patronage vested in the Secretary of State for India in regard to this Bill. My hon. Friend opposite criticised the Bill, and obviously it; is open to criticism, on the ground that it is a skeleton to be filled in by the rules which are to be made. Again, I think no Minister of the Crown can be so fitted to make the rules as a Minister who is surrounded by experts as the Secretary of State for India is, experts whom any Secretary of State for India, including my right hon. Friend, would no doubt consult fully in regard to such a matter. I did not follow the Secretary of State when he referred to this Bill as relating to the War period and such time after the War as might prove necessary. Surely it is laid down that it shall be two years?

Not more than two years. I thought the right hon. Gentleman did not make that clear. The phrase is, "During the continuance of the present War, and for a period not exceeding two years thereafter." I should like to ask, does that include the results in 1914, because they were announced two months after the outbreak of war. I should like my right hon. Friend to consider that, because I really do not quite understand whether or not the results of 1914 come under this Bill. He might kindly let me know about that. I do not regret, with Lord MacDonnell, that the Secretary of State is to have the patronage he is, so far as it is patronage, under the Bill, neither do I understand why the rules my right hon. Friend will make, which are to be laid before Parliament, do not come under the provision enabling hon. Members to move an Address to the Crown. That is rather obscure. Perhaps he will kindly explain why. We know that any action taken in regard to making an Executive Council, for instance, in India has to lie on the Table of the House for a certain period—fourteen days, I think—during which time an Address may be moved to the Crown. I understand that is not the procedure taken in regard to the rules under this Bill. It is not done under that Section. I do not regret it, but it was not very clear to me from the Debate in another place.

When a body is appointed which has to advise—I do not know whether any body is to be appointed now, but I want to make this suggestion—the Secretary of State in Council will have to decide, with the advice of the Civil Service Commissioners, how they are going to select these men out of those who have served at the Front. Will he endeavour to bring into the curriculum; to an extent which it is not at present, a knowledge of the Russian language? It is of the utmost importance. The necessity for Indian Civil servants to know Russian is much more apparent now than it ever was before. Formerly, members qualified as interpreters. They cost the Government, as I did myself, some hundreds of pounds for rewards, and were never used for a day afterwards. I hope members of the Civil Service who are Russian interpreters may have something to do. The general upheaval will bring us into closer connection with Russia, and it is of great importance that Russian should be given a place in the qualifications of future Civil servants, whether those appointed under this Bill or otherwise, which it has not had hitherto, which it ought to have had, and which it should have in future. I cannot agree with Lord MacDonnell that the competitive system has given universal satisfaction, but I will not say any more about that, as I have been allowed to refer to it. I hope, indeed, that the system of dealing with merely educational qualifications will be largely and permanently modified owing to the action now taken, which I myself most strongly approve. I think I have referred to the proposal, which I understand, the Secretary of State considers a binding one, to give the Indians their chance in the quota who are to be selected by competition, and also, if they do not get their fair share out of that competition, that he will appoint those who are lower down on the list. He has a very good opportunity, instead of picking up those who are lower down on the list, of picking up some of those gallant soldiers from the Punjab and elsewhere who were in the House this morning and whose appointment I am certain would give the very utmost satisfaction in India, and I hope he will consider that. The Bill gives him a perfectly free hand in this respect, of which he might avail himself. The change made in the first Clause in another place has my complete approval; consequently I will not refer to what I think has been satisfactorily accomplished there.

I wish to express my personal satisfaction that a measure of the character now under discussion should have been introduced—indeed, I think it ought to have been introduced long ago. I recollect, more than a year ago, that I was approached by several students at our Scottish universities who were preparing for the Indian Civil Service examination, and I made an appeal to the then Under-Secretary for India that the matter ought to be carefully considered, and that these young men who had first-rate university qualifications, and who were proposing to enter the Civil Service, should not be discouraged from enlisting in the Army. At that time the Government of India took up the attitude that these young men should not be encouraged to enlist, and I think they were definitely told that it was not considered in the best interests of India that they should offer themselves for military service. I told the Under-Secretary that, in my opinion, that was wrong, and that instead of discouraging them they should have got every encouragement which could possibly be held out to them. I am very glad indeed that there has been, at all events, some modification in the attitude of the Indian Government with regard to this matter.

I think the hon. Member has perhaps done some injustice to my predecessor in the office which I hold. I think the objection to candidates for an Indian career volunteering a year ago was applied only to those who had already passed the examination at that time and were probationers.

My information was that that was so. But even if it were not so, we may perhaps all of us recognise that we have learnt something in the twelve months since, and that not all the expectations with which the War was begun have been fulfilled. New needs have developed, and during the War we have got to go without some things which in the early months of the War we regarded as necessaries with which we could hardly dispense. I am gratified by the general assent which has been given on both sides of the House to the principle and the methods of the Bill. Indeed, the only criticisms I have heard have been those of two of my hon. Friends, who said, "Why are you so tender to the system of competitive examination? Why, having the opportunity to make a breach in it, did you not make the breach a little wider?" I answered my hon. Friend near me who questioned me as to whether I really thought the system of competitive examination was a success that I did not know whether it was to be described as an unqualified success or not, but at least it was a necessity for the protection of Ministers. No Minister in these days, under the conditions of these days, will accumulate patronage if he can avoid it. He exposes himself, even in the most innocent discharge of his duties, to too many invidious and unfriendly criticisms, and certainly, as far as I am concerned, I would never have thought of tampering with the system of open competitive examination if it were not that that system would be grossly unfair to the candidates for the services who have entered it in normal times, and grossly unfair to India who, if this system were pursued without restriction at present, would not get the men she ought to get for her Civil Service.

The other line of criticism was that some of the points which I mentioned in my speech, and which, of course, were mentioned by my Noble Friend in another place, are not embodied in the Bill. I hope the House will not insist on making us insert or define these conditions in the Bill at present. I am not a prophet. I do not know how long the War is going to last. I do not know exactly what the position will be at the close of the War or in the two years thereafter, and some latitude, I think, must be left to the Secretary of State in Council of that day to define the conditions which the circumstances of the time may show to be necessary. But this I say quite clearly and definitely, and I regard it as an honourable pledge absolutely binding upon myself, and being given by me as Secretary of State in my official capacity, as binding on my successor, that no candidate of British birth will be appointed by this method of selection unless he has served with the Forces of the Crown. I desire to say that a man must not be excluded because he has not served in France. That has not been a matter of choice with him. His unit may have been ordered to France, Egypt, Gallipoli, Mesopotamia, the Balkans, India, or anywhere else. That is not his choice. It is not his fault if, serving with the Colours, he is not serving in France. What is essential is that he should have served with the armed Forces of the Crown, and it is a binding pledge that no one of British birth shall be appointed, at any rate without fresh application to this House, who has not served with the armed Forces of the Crown.

A further point that was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for London University (Sir Philip Magnus) was in regard to the statement I made that it was not proposed to make any of these appointments of men of British birth during the War. I want to be quite frank with the hon. Gentleman and the House. It is not my intention, but that has to be governed by the necessities of the case. If the War were prolonged it might become necessary to make some appointments before the War is over. That will not be done, however, if we can avoid it. If it should become necessary, then nothing that I have said is to preclude me or my successor from doing it. One other point was raised by my hon. Friend (Sir J. Jardine). He will understand that the Committee of Selection must not be too large a body if it is to do its work effectively. I cannot undertake that every university in the three Kingdoms, and all public schools and other schools, shall find somebody whom they regard as a direct representative upon that Committee. What I do undertake is to make the Committee representative in a wide sense of the educational institutions and universities of the three Kingdoms.

No. I cannot undertake to say that there shall be on the Committee a representative from each of the Dominions. The Committee would become unwieldy, and I do not know whether qualified gentlemen would be readily available It will be my endeavour, if I am responsible, and I am sure that it will be the endeavour of any other Secretary of State, to make the Committee a body that will have the respect and command the confidence of the educational world, and certainly to prevent its being thought for one moment to be a Committee narrowly constituted in the interests of particular universities or particular schools. That would not do at all, and I can say with confidence that we shall do our best to avoid that. I would like to make a suggestion to the House in regard to this Bill. I am, of course, entirely in the hands of the House. There has been no opposition to the Bill, and I am sanguine enough to believe that after the explanations I have given there is no desire for amending the Bill. If that is so, I would ask the House whether they would consent to take the further stages of the Bill to-night. I know that most of those hon. Members who have taken part in the Debate have attended here night after night in the expectation of the Bill being reached, and they have done so at some inconvenience to themselves. I am not, therefore, simply seeking my own selfish convenience, but I am serving the convenience of the hon. Members interested, in making the suggestion that we might take the further stages of the Bill now. It is entirely a matter for hon. Members themselves.

Will consideration be given to as many Indians as possible who have served in the War as well as European candidates?

10.0 P.M.

My object is, not to disturb the ordinary method of entering into the Civil Service of India, except in so far as the changes are necessitated by the conditions of the War. I did not think that Indian born candidates were being precluded by the present circumstances from competing. If they are to a large extent being precluded I think their case must be considered. I do not pretend for a moment that I contemplate bringing in new classes of Indians under this Bill. Perhaps they ought to come in, or perhaps they ought not to come in, but, at any rate, they ought not to come in under the cover of a war measure. I do not for a moment say that I am going to bring in new classes, but if a class of men who would have competed with chance of success is being excluded, or if many of them are being excluded by war conditions, then I think their case is one for consideration. Otherwise, I think that I should meet with great objections from the Indians them- selves if I used the power of selection to transfer the nomination from the classes who would have competed successfully m normal times to other classes.

I wish to speak as strongly as I can in support of the right hon. Gentleman's proposal that the Committee of Selection which he proposes to appoint should not be selected merely as representative of the various educational institutions or universities. As the representative of two universities I would point out that would be a most fatal thing. It would make the Committee so large as to be really ineffective. In the second place, if you get the proper men to sit upon the Committee, they must be men who command respect and trust for themselves, and not merely because they represent one section or one educational institution. I sit on a Selection Committee, and I know that in regard to the candidates who come before us the question as to the educational institutions they come from never arises for one moment. We look upon them for their own merit, and I am certain that those who sit on that Selection Board would be entirely unfitted for their work, and would not command confidence for one moment, if they pressed the claims, or were supposed to press the claims, of any particular educational institution, or if they thought it to be their duty to advocate the claims of any particular institution or institutions. I am perfectly certain that I am speaking for the two universities I represent when I say that we are perfectly ready to trust the men in whom the nation places confidence, wherever they may come from.

Question, "That the Bill be read a second time," put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into Committee on the Bill."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]

I should be very sorry to disturb the arrangements of the right hon. Gentleman, especially after the full explanations he has given; but I think it would be desirable if there was a delay so that the educational world, especially in the remoter parts of the Kingdom, should have an apportunity of considering the Bill.

I do not think that I ought to press the matter under those circumstances.

HON. MEMBERS: Go on.

I am quite sure that this Bill has been fully considered, and I think the right hon. Gentleman should proceed with it.

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take the Bill through all its stages.

I think that the whole House with one single exception—that exception having addressed the House at enormous length already—wishes the right hon. Gentleman to go on.

On account of the observations just made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, I desire to support my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburghshire in his attitude regarding this Bill. I do not think it right that the House should be rushed.

I said when I began that I would not press it if any hon. Member objected. I do not think that I should ask for exceptional treatment for the. Bill unless with the common consent of the whole House, and it has not got the common consent of the whole House.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House, for Monday next.—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]

Patents and Designs Act (Paetial Suspension) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

I need not trouble the House with any long explanation of this very small Bill. In the Patents and Designs Act of 1907, there is a very valuable Clause which enacts that any patent which is granted in this country can be revoked, if within four years of the date on which it is granted the patentee does not manufacture or produce the patent article in this country. That, I think, received the general approval of the whole House. It is obvious if that course were not taken a man might obtain a patent in order to prevent the manufacture of an article in this country or, a more common case, the manufacture in this country of an article imported from abroad might be prevented. It is obvious to this House that conditions during the War are quite changed, and that as manufacturers would now have great difficulty in obtaining the labour and the material for national purposes, it is really not possible to insist upon this condition being fulfilled. All that this Bill does is to suspend that condition during the continuance of the War, so that nobody can have his patent voided because he does not work it under war conditions. Since this Bill was drafted, my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cornwall (Sir Croydon Marks), who has very great experience on this subject, has suggested that it is hardly sufficient merely to suspend the action of the Clause during the War, but that it is necessary to add words to provide that the suspension period shall not count. Therefore, I propose, with the leave of the House, to add these words in Committee After the word "thereafter," at the end of Clause 1, to add the words, "and in reckoning the period of four years mentioned in the said Section, the period during which that Section is suspended by virtue of this Act shall not be taken into account." That, I think, will cover the ground. In carrying this out we shall be copying the action taken already in other countries, France and Italy for instance. I believe that in those countries they, having taken action which protects from similar legislation in those countries countrymen of our own who possess patents there, will be glad to see similar legislation carried out here, so that where a Frenchman or Italian has a patent in this country, he will be secured, and that owing to war conditions he shall not be arbitrarily deprived of his rights in that patent.

Will the hon. Gentleman make it clear that the suspensory period will be for the whole of the War, and not merely from now onwards?

It will be from the date of the passing of this Act. During the continuance of this War, and for six months thereafter.

I would like to see it retrospective. That is a suggestion which is worth consideration.

I think that the hon. Gentleman will see that retrospective legislation is rather difficult, and it is only resorted to in extreme cases. I do not think that it is very necessary in this case. I agree that there is great force in what my hon. Friend says. I think that it would have been better if we had introduced this legislation a little earlier, but a great deal of legislation was necessary, and in these matters it is sometimes only when cases arise that they are dealt with. That is what has happened in this case. If it had been brought to our notice earlier we should have dealt with it earlier. We are dealing with it now, and I think it better that the period should be from the date of the passing of the Act.

This matter is one of extreme importance at the present time, and I rather hope that as it is a suspensory measure we may pass it through all its stages to-night for the protection of the industries of this country. Members perhaps do not altogether appreciate that at the present moment any foreigner can present a petition in this country to have a patent revoked on the ground that it has been worked more abroad than it has been in this country. That means that an American could in this country present a petition to have a patent revoked here on the ground that it has been worked more in America than here. I am glad that the Government have seen that it is not fair, when so many establishments in this country are controlled by them, that the holders of these establishments should be penalised by being subject to attacks in connection with their patents because of their being unable to work them. I would suggest, therefore, that the House, seeing that this is purely a suspensory measure, and not a measure like the one which we have previously been discussing, and that we have the possibility of British subjects being attacked during the period of the War, should safeguard them from losing their patents by foreigners attacking them in this country while we are at war. If hon. Members appreciate that, they will see that this is a matter which should have extremely urgent consideration at the present time. There is a further consideration to be borne in mind at the present time. France grants to all patentees an exemption in respect of working patents in that country, provided that in the countries of the citizens of other countries who hold patents in France similar rights are given to Frenchmen. If we do not give similar rights in this country at the present time every British subject owning a patent in France will be obliged to work that invention, notwithstanding the fact that Frenchemen are not obliged to work it. Consequently we are putting ourselves, by not having such a Bill as this, at a great disadvantage in France and other countries, because we do not give to the citizens of those countries the rights they are willing to give to us. I would appeal to the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to ask the House to put it through all its stages to-night, as it is urgent that there should be immediate protection of the whole of the industries of this country.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into Committee on the Bill."—[ Mr. Pretyman. ]

Bill accordingly considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Suspension of 7, Edw. VII. c 29, s. 27.)

The operation of Section twenty-seven of the Patents and Designs Act, 1907, shall be suspended during the continuance of the present War, and for a period of six months thereafter.

Amendment made: Add at the end of the Clause the words "and in reckoning the period of four years mentioned in the said Section, the period during which that Section is suspended, by virtue of this Act, shall not be taken into account."—[ Mr. Pretyman. ]

CLAUSE 2 ( Short Title ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, with an Amendment.

As amended, considered.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

If this Bill is right, it has been right for the last fifteen months. If it is justified, it has been justified for the last fifteen months; yet it has not been brought forward. Nothing has arisen to make it more urgent than at any time during that period, but now it is brought forward, and we are asked to pass it in a few minutes. I do not blame the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, but I trust that in future Bills will be brought in at the proper time.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

Street Collections (Regulation—Scotland) Bill

Order for Second Heading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

This is a small Bill, but I think the House will agree that it is useful and necessary, especially in view of the fact that we have lately had a very large number of collections. We are very familiar with them in London. I am inclined to think that in Glasgow they are even more familiar with them. Very large sums are raised in that city, its people being very generous. More money is taken at Glasgow bazaars than at the bazaars of any other place in the world. A street collection in Glasgow realises £l,800 or £2,000 in a single day. It has been represented to me that these street collections are liable to abuse. Certain people, having control, make a trade of them, and make a profit out of them. There are cases where they are fraudulent, but in most cases they are not. In some cases they are under private bodies. People who give in these, street collections are entitled to know that there is some control, and that the money will get to the quarter for which it is intended. There are then occasions upon which different people want to have street collections on the same day. It is necessary to have some control to regulate that, and I think the House will agree that it is desirable to have control in other ways. For example, it is not desirable to have very young children collecting. It is not good for the children for many reasons. The Glasgow magistrates represented this matter to me very strongly, and I think they made out a very good case that it is a matter that ought to be dealt with now, because the War has increased the amount of street collections. They showed me lists of applications and they have had applications for half a dozen collections on one day. They do not want to stop these collections, but they want to see that they are held under proper conditions. I hope, therefore, that the House will agree to give a Second Reading to the Bill. I do not propose to take any other stage of the Bill to-night but the Second Reading.

I agree with everything that has been said by the Secretary for Scotland, but I am not quite sure that I agree wholly with his Bill. I entirely endorse the view that, especially in regard to charities and appeals, to the feelings of the people who desire to help in various ways, that they leave themselves open to all kinds of abuses at present. I myself have mentioned instances where abuse has taken place, and I think this is a matter that the Government ought very rightly, properly deal with and take into account. Where there is any suspicion at all that people are taking collections for personal gain it is a matter that ought certainly to be looked into, as to whether such collections are bogus collections. The point I want to safeguard is a quite clear one. I want to ask, first of all, what is a street collection, Does it mean that people have to go through the street asking for money from the various people they meet? It is well known that both religious organisations, like the Salvation Army and political organisations, especially political working-class organisations, are in the habit of holding meetings, very often at appointed places, where people go; where they get into the habit of going regularly. In thoses cases there is no question of importuning people to make a collection in the street, but those who are in sympathy with the object of this meeting or that meeting are able to help to make a collection. Is that going to be included in the scope of this Bill? If that is so, then I think it is going to add very seriously to the power of magistrates, who might be out of sympathy with either the religious objects of those meetings or the political objects of those meetings. That is the one point I want to be definite about. I think with regard to the general question of organising processions in the streets and so on for the purpose of taking collections, and putting something in front of everybody who passes along, there is great need to see that the object is a genuine object and that the matter is properly carried out. I agree with every word of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, but I want to know how far this matter is going to be carried, and, if necessary, I shall take steps to see that Amendments are put down to carry out safeguards I desire to see embodied in the bill.

I do not propose to oppose this measure, but I desire to make two suggestions to my right hon. Friend with a view to his consideration before the Committee One suggestion is in the direction of narrowing the measure, and that has already been referred to by my hon. Friend, and the other suggestion is in the direction of widening the measure. In Clause 1 (2) the magistrates are limited in their right to make regulations. If he would except religious and political meetings, so that the magistrates could not make regulations concerning them, it would meet the point of the hon. Member for Sheffield, and be in the direction of narrowing the measure. As to widening the measure, what about dealing with populous districts in counties where no magistrates exist? How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to deal with those? If the measure is good for burghs, surely it ought to be applied also to populous districts which are not burghs. The same powers should be given to district councils, or committees of councils, or county councils. They are just as capable as magistrates in a burgh of making good regulations.

I wish to raise a point which I have had to raise on many of these Rills, and in regard to which I have always been met in a fair spirit by the Government—that is, with regard to the limitation of the operation of the measure to the period of the War. The Government have again and again inserted words to that effect. The understanding has been very clear. We have always understood that this legislation, if it is justified as an emergency measure, should be confined to these times of emergency. As far as I can see, this particular measure appears to be good legislation either in peace or in war. At the same time, there are many little proposals which we might make for England, equally desirable and even more important than this, but the opportunity for their being brought forward by private Members has been taken away. I give notice that I shall put down an Amendment in the sense I have indicated, in order to hear what my right hon. Friend has to say. I do not think it is fair to take this point upon one Bill and not upon another. There may be a satisfactory reason for not inserting such words in this case. I would not object to a year after the War, or something of that kind, so that the Bill shall not be put permanently on the Statute Book when it is merely an emergency measure.

I do not, on this point, find myself in agreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract. Numerous collections which have arisen since the War began have emphasised and aggravated the evil. Nevertheless, the evil existed before the War, and most likely it will continue after the War. I think, therefore, this should not, so far as Scotland is concerned, be regarded as merely emergency legislation. I, however, agree with the two hon. Members who have spoken that some Amendment should be introduced to make clear that collections which have been habitually taken in the past on religious and political occasions should not be required to be put under the power of the magistrates. I think it will be a simple enough matter to frame an Amendment which safeguards this point. I also think that there is substance in the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division of Glasgow regarding the county areas which are urban in character. In England you have authorities for these special areas which would receive the powers in any Bill dealing with the English position. But in counties like Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, and Dumbartonshire, there are large populous areas which are far more important than the great majority of burghs in Scotland. Consequently, it seems to me, the district committees of these counties would certainly be glad to have the powers which are herein conferred upon the magistrates of burghs. I do not press the matter, but if my right hon. Friend does not take the Committee stage till Wednesday say, the county authorities might have an opportunity to say whether or not they wanted these powers. If they did not desire them, it would be unnecessary to do anything further.

I am opposed to the principle of this Bill. The danger of street collections for charities is that sometimes the money collected, or at any rate all the money collected, does not reach the object for which it is intended. Furthermore, I do not like the reference to the magistrates. I would rather that we framed an Act of Parliament that would altogether prohibit these collections.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[ Mr. Walter Rea. ]

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

Beitish Forces in France

General Headquarters Staff

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd. February, proposed the Question, "That this Hous0e do now adjourn."

It is with apologies to the House that I ask leave to detain hon. Members for a few minutes to make an explanation of a character which may nearly come under your ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as personal. I believe otherwise, according to the rules of procedure, it would be impossible for me to draw attention, first of all, to what may be almost called charges against the General Headquarters Staff in France. These have appeared in the Press at intervals during the last six months, and were crystallised in a speech made the day before yesterday in another place. I hope, at the outset—

Perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will allow me to ask whether it is possible that he has not misconceived the position? It is not competent in this House to reply to a speech made in the other House. In either House a speech made there must be replied to in the House in which the speech is made. The hon. and gallant Member is, of course, entitled to make any personal explanation he may desire.

I regret that I even mentioned the other House. It was only just to point out that it was in this particular manner that the matter seems to me to have arrived at that point where it should be as quickly as possible dealt with. I think the House will sympathise with me in being, so to speak, a Member of one of the households which are undoubtedly involved in the attacks—I had almost called them charges—which are of a character detrimental to the reputation of the officers there situated. I think I shall have the sympathy of the House if I put it in this way: that being so situated, it would be cowardly and certainly disloyal if I did not take the very first opportunity, as being one of the few members of the Staff represented in the House of Commons, to deny them specifically and with as little delay as possible. I would first of all point out that those sections of the Press which have brought these charges seem themselves to be entirely in a fog as to the object at which they direct their attacks. I do not think they have any conception of the Staff, the various Staffs, their names, their duties, or their relative positions one to another, and I think it is almost impossible for me to deal with the specific charges without in two or three words being given permission to describe the difference of the Staffs involved under the general term of General Headquarters. It has a very simple sub-division into the General Professional Staff and the Personal Staff of the Commander-in-Chief in the field. The duties are entirely distinct, and in no way overlap or interfere with one another. The Personal Staff, of which I have had the honour to be a member for a year, is solely concerned, I think I may say, with, first, the safety of the Commander-in-Chief, the responsibility for his transport, accommodation, the management on his behalf of all his correspondence, public or private, the dealing with cypher telegrams, and such like, and also the attention to all official visits, of which I may inform the House we have had a very great number during the course of the past year. But if it is thought for a minute that any of those duties trespass upon the duties of the professional staff, the sooner those ignorant sections of the Press are informed the better. On frequent occasions they have complained of the size of the General Headquarters Staff. It has a great many departments, the best known of which would be the Operation Department with its various sub-divisions, the Adjutant-General's department, the Quartermaster-General's department, and several others; but when a comparison is made between the size of the General Headquarters Staff in France, and the General Headquarters Staff of other Continental armies, it is essential that it should be pointed out that many of the departments we have to keep in the field in our zone, in our area, are departments which in other countries would be right behind the base, and would not be in evidence. We have to keep a post office with a large number of persons, and which in the case of France is centralised in Paris. I only mention that to show the reckless ignorance with which certain sections of the Press have levelled attacks, some on the character of the officers, and some on the size of the Staff, and some on their general slackness and general inefficiency, without any knowledge of the facts which they are making.

I pass almost at once to the charges to which I first referred, but, before doing so, I would like, in the interests of those with whom I have been working in very close contact for the last year, to try and disabuse the public mind of the idea that the Staff as it is now at General Headquarters is the same body which has been sitting there in offices: ever since the commencement of the War. That is not the case. A great change was made when the change was made in the position of the officer who occupies the post of Chief of the General Staff. He supplied these new offices, but refilled them with men who had done active service fighting at the front in the field, and officers who had occupied those offices for the first five or six months of the War went to occupy positions on the active fighting staff up against the enemy's lines. It is not fair that the public should get an idea that those officers, since the beginning of the War, sat safely in those offices without budging. The Secretary of State for the Colonies gave an answer which elucidates these points. For many months officers commanding regiments have been invited to supply names of regimental officers which they may think are suitable for training purposes, and the conditions are not as tight as we were led to suppose from what we read in the papers. There is not a man who does not receive the opportunity of recommendation by his commanding officer, and he very often finds himself placed in a higher and more satisfactory position on the Staff.

There was one charge in a newspaper a few days ago which I hope you, Mr. Speaker, will permit me to reply to. It was that the casualties amongst members of the Staff were very small, while the percentage of decorations was very high. That reflects somewhat upon their professional honour. The real decorations which the Army respects, and which the country, when this War is over, will recognise as being of professional value, are the Victoria Cross, the Distinguished Service Order, and the Military Cross—the latter being a decoration which was started during the War. These will be worn on the breasts of men who have done hard regimental work, and those who wear them will be recognised as those who have done hard work in trench warfare. It may be that more or less decorations of a different character which are quite distinct from those prizes which the Army appreciates better than we do were referred to, and it may be that a certain number of them find their way into the Staff ranks. That very much alters alters the view, and I hope will check that line of argument produced against the Staff. The two charges I am most anxious to deal with definitely on behalf of the men with whom I have lived and worked are the suggestions crystallised by references in another place, and which again appear to-day repeated in various organs of the Press, referring to the personal honour of the men involved. When a Headquarters Staff has been fighting for many months in the field of war it has, apart from its professional value, given from morning till night the better part of 430 days of its best energy, and all the time it was working out problems and fulfilling duties which are arduous, it seems to me a very unfair thing that suggestions of visits from society which ought to be excluded from the area of serious work, and that time is wasted in card-playing and other methods, should be made, and it seems very unfair that those men should be attacked by cheap newspapers on those points without someone standing up in their defence and refuting the charges as they can be refuted.

It is now three months since I left General Headquarters, but for the year before that I lived amongst these officers, and I think perhaps the House will take it from me when I say that very little would go on in a town of the size of that at which our General Headquarters is without my knowledge. I can without difficulty or hesitation refute all the rumours. It started in a manner in which it is possible that notice should have been taken of it. About six months ago the first appearance of these suggestions showed its head in the "Daily Chronicle." I can go so far as to say that amongst ourselves we discussed the advisability of answering it at once. We decided not to do so. Here, if I may point out to the House, I consider that it was the duty of the Secretary of State for War, who not only fulfilled the capacity but who was also Chief Press Censor, to defend the reputation of his Army the very moment the suggestion was put forward, but it was not done. Other references appeared in other papers, and on one occasion the limit was reached by the mention of a certain name. As a result, this rumour has obtained credence in the minds of serious and responsible people, and the opportunity I have to-night of seeing some of them here in the House gives me very great pleasure indeed, because I know they are Members who are prepared themselves to make great sacrifices to win this War and expect to see it in others, and would no more lend countenance to such rumours, and even go to the extent of discussing them amongst themselves, unless they had a most reasonable belief that they were true. To-night gives me an opportunity, I think, of satisfying them once for all that there is no ground for the suspicions in any shape or form. If I might refer even to another Member of the House, it would be to say that there is a Member of the Government sitting opposite me, the Member for West Wilts (Mr. G. Howard), who for seven months occupied a position at General Headquarters, not as a member of the General Headquarters Staff, but in command of a unit which found itself quartered in the same town, and he is prepared to substantiate every word I say in this connection. But I admit that it is unlikely that everybody should be entirely deceived, and that it would be possible to produce something which would form enough of an incident or illustration to build a tale upon.

I think, therefore, that it is wiser for me quite openly to tell the House of the visits which were paid to General Headquarters during the year I was there, so that if they have heard of any such arrivals they will know exactly the one to which the reference should be applied. About a year ago a visit was made to General Headquarters by the lady who was sent out from England with a view of ascertaining how the hospitals were served from the point of view of lay workers. At that time amongst many of the women of England—it was just shortly after the establishment of Headquarters in the northern area of France, where they are to-day—who were anxious to help there was a doubt as to whether there was a sufficient number of lay workers and whether there was a sufficient number of nurses to fill all the hospitals and to undertake the burden which in those months of October and November was falling upon them. The visit was made. It was an official visit. Hospitals were inspected, and the visit finished in a day or two. A report, I understand, was made. I never heard any more of it. It was presented at home. I understand it was of a character which reflected the greatest credit on the management of the Royal Army Medical Corps. Somebody may have heard of these visits and tried to build a story upon them. Some months later a visit was made to General Headquarters by a mother who was taken to the bedside of her son, who at that time was reported to be mortally wounded. I am glad to say since then that officer has recovered. It is possible that the visit of the mother had something to do with it. The other official visits to my knowledge have been paid by responsible ladies who have so far earned the confidence of the Government and of the Army by their fourteen months' devotion to work in the field, that they are now entrusted with the control of large hospitals in the war zone. These visits were of a fleeting character, and to my knowledge occurred once or twice in the course of fourteen months. They were purely with the object of obtaining greater facilities for the work they were carrying on.

I have, for purposes which the House will probably approve, avoided mentioning names. I have no reason for so doing than abiding by traditions which the House would prefer respected, but should any Member ask me for the names at any time I shall be only too glad to give them to him. That is the foundation of the story, and the myth which has grown up and which, if not contradicted, will very soon grow into the suspicion that the camp has become a court. I think the Government should, on an early occasion in the House of Commons, refute these charges. That is the way in which I reply to any suggestions of visits to the personal staff. There is besides a small section of the community involved in the charges—probably a couple of hundred men—who have been working strenuously ever since the War began, and at the bottom are these insinuations about wasting their time in the manner I have indicated. Does anybody realise what is the average day's work of a Staff officer quite apart from the question whether he performs services which bring about successful results, or whether he does well or badly? That is not the object of my speaking. With the exception of half an hour for lunch, and perhaps an hour for dinner, these officers work continuously from half-past eight or nine in the morning till midnight, and some of them spend so many hours at their work that their meals are taken in relief, so that not less than one-half of the staff may always be in the office. They have no week-ends, nothing except a holiday of a few days at intervals of two, three, or four months. There is no easing up of the continuous strain, and often they are called upon to go forward and get information necessary to the General Staff and have to take exactly the same risks while undertaking the duty as the man who spends his entire time in the fighting line. It is work which tells on the physical and nervous powers of a man, and if the officers are allowed to be maligned on a point on which they are very sensitive it must add very considerably to their burden. I think that to allow rumours to circulate about these men is unworthy of the Government and of the country they are serving. If I might, in conclusion, say something to the House as to the best method and the simplest method of settling this matter once for all, it would be to suggest that someone on behalf of the Government—if I might I would appeal to them to do it now, before the thing becomes forgotten and lost—should resent on behalf of the Army these malignant inventions and to do it without any further delay.

As one entirely unconnected with the military in any shape or form, and being a plain business man from the North and a back-bencher, I have listened with great interest to the hon. and gallant Member. I feel sure he has removed any misapprehension that might have been felt. The great bulk of hon. Members of this House never believed these idle tales for one moment. Of course, some people may have been misled, but, speaking generally, Members of this House, so far as I have ascertained, are entirely in sympathy with the hon. and gallant Member.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Four minutes before Eleven o'clock till Monday next (22nd November), pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February.