House of Commons
Wednesday, November 24, 1915
Private Business
Port Dundas Church and Parish Quoad Sacra, Glasgow, Order Confirmation Bill,
"To confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Port Dundas Church and Parish Quoad Sacra, Glasgow." Presented by Mr. MCKINNON WOOD; and ordered (under Section 7 of the Act) to be considered To-morrow.
Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907
Copies presented of Orders numbered D.I.P. 301 to 305, inclusive, declaring the areas described in the Schedules thereto to be infected with Wart Disease and infected areas for the purposes of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
National Insurance Act
Copy presented of Provisional Regulations, dated 16th November, 1915, made by the National Health Insurance Committee, acting jointly with the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Medical Benefit) Regulations (Wales) (No. 2), 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 388]
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Mexico
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the present Government of Mexico recognises the paper money issued by preceding Governments, whether or not recognised by the United States Government; and, if not, whether His Majesty's Government proposes to ask the former Government whether it intends to take any and, if so, what steps to restore Mexican exchange and to rehabilitate the Mexican dollar, which has fallen in sterling value by 500 per cent?
I understand that the present Mexican authorities have declared all paper currency issued by rival revolutionary parties to be worthless, and I have instructed His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at Mexico to furnish a report on the matter. Until that report arrives no further step can be considered. I do not know whether the United States Government have yet decided what attitude they shall adopt with regard to such issues.
Is not the position in Mexico rendering paper money worthless, due to and dependent upon the action of the United States, and will not His Majesty's Government, therefore, approach the Government of the United States in regard to this matter?
I should not like to go further than I have already gone; the condition of Mexico is so very uncertain.
Ionian Islands
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is advised that the Treaty of 1863, which confirmed the gift of the Ionian Islands to Greece, and by which, at the same time, the independence of Greece as a constitutional monarchy was guaranteed by Great Britain, France, and Russia, retains its binding force, in view of the present relations between the Greek Government and the Parliament, the powers of which are now virtually in abeyance?
I do not think it can be said at present that the conditions of the Treaty have been violated.
Prisoners of War
asked whether any steps have been taken or are being taken, either direct or through the neutral Embassies, to bring about a general exchange of prisoners of war between Great Britain and Germany?
The answer is in the negative.
King's Royal Rifle Corps
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War as regards Lieut.-Colonel Eric Murray, commanding the 20th (Service) Battalion of the King's Royal Rifle Corps, whether there are any limitations in his commission of lieutenant-colonel; what is his substantive commissioned rank; and what is his length of military service?
I am not sure that I quite understand my hon. Friend's question. Lieut.-Colonel E. Murray has the substantive rank of lieutenant-colonel. His commission, like others, in the New Armies is temporary. His military service began on the 30th September, 1914.
Does this commission give rank or precedence over Indian majors and majors in the British Army, including brevet rank, during the campaign?
I imagine the answer would be in the affirmative; but I do not like to give an answer on so technical a point without reference to the military authorities. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put a question down.
Promotion of Officers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether, in order to improve promotion in the Regular Cavalry, the War Office has decided to offer promotion into the Artillery and Infantry to all suitable Regular Cavalry officers of the rank of captain and under who are willing to accept it and are recommended for such promotion; whether he is yet in a position to state if the opinion of officers commanding brigades of Artillery at the front has been asked or ascertained as regards the effect the above proposal would have on the prospects of captains commanding batteries of Artillery or of lieu- tenants acting as captains of batteries; and (2) whether the proposal to promote captains, lieutenants, and second-lieutenants of the Regular Cavalry into higher ranks in the Infantry and Artillery is extended to similar officers in the Yeomanry; and whether those who are promoted into the Artillery will have to undergo any special training?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, as regards the proposal to improve the prospects of officers in the Regular Cavalry, by offering them promotion from the rank of captain in the Cavalry to the rank of major in the Artillery and from that of lieutenant in the Cavalry to that of captain in the Artillery, whether there is any intention to require the promoted officers to undergo a course of training at Woolwich or elsewhere in Artillery subjects, or to give a Cavalry captain promoted to be major in the Artillery the command of a battery in the campaign without special training?
As I stated on the 11th of November, a proposal on the lines of that mentioned in the first part of question No. 11 has been put forward for consideration. If such a proposal were finally adopted its effect on those concerned would, of course, be thoroughly considered from the standpoint of the Army as a whole in the first instance, and also so far as it affected the position of individual officers, but the commanders of brigades of Artillery have not been consulted. The answer to the first part of question No. 12 is in the negative. As regards the remainder of question No. 12 and question No. 14, I may say that if the proposal to transfer Cavalry officers to the Artillery is adopted, arrangements will certainly have to be made to train such Cavalry officers in their new duties.
How long will be the period before a Cavalry officer is allowed to command a battery in the field?
I imagine that no hard and fast rule as to the time will be adopted. An officer would be considered fit to join a new unit when he has finished his course.
Are officers commanding brigades of Artillery at the front to be consulted?
I do not know.
Rifle Range, Straffan (Ireland)
asked why a rifle range was made at Straffan, in Ireland, when it was not found necessary to use it for more than a very few weeks?
The troops who first used this range have gone abroad, but others will, I am sure, be available shortly and the range will then be in use again.
Men of Military Age (Advertisements)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to advertisements appearing in certain newspapers which expressly invite applications from men of military age; and whether any steps will be taken to discourage such proceedings?
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if any special communication is being addressed by the Director-General of Recruiting to ladies who advertise in the public Press for a third footman where butler is kept or to so-called sportsmen who similarly advertise for a third or fourth gamekeeper without any proviso as to eligibility for military service; and, if not, whether he will consider the desirability of his doing so if only to avoid the deterrent local effect of an unpatriotic example?
My attention has been called to the advertisements mentioned by the Noble Lord. Such advertisements, I think, reflect great discredit on those who are responsible for them. I do not know that any specific steps can be taken against these persons, but if the managers of newspapers saw fit to exclude such advertisements, I think they would be performing a public service.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a Government Department actually engaged a man of military age during the last month?
I was not aware of that, but it really does depend, of course, as to whether the person in question was indespensable or not.
He was not in the Service before?
He may be an expert?
No, he is not.
Naval Volunteers (South Africa)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether a number of naval volunteers from South Africa are now in this country; and, if so, whether he will extend to them the same privilege as other naval volunteers of individually offering their services for the Royal Navy afloat?
The offer of the services of a number of the South African Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve was gladly accepted by the Admiralty, and the men are now attached to the Royal Naval Division in this country. It was understood that they wished to serve as a unit representing their corps, but if individuals wish to volunteer for service afloat it is quite open to them to do so, and their applications will be considered.
Naval Prize Money
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the amount of prize money now in hand; whether the sum now in hand is a subject of investment and, if so, how is it employed; whether he can inform the House when this prize money will be distributed to those entitled in the Fleet; and whether the interest will be apportioned to the respective sums payable to the officers and men, will be added to the sum to which they are entitled, or how otherwise will this interest be dealt with?
I am afraid it is impossible to say how much money on account of prize is now in hand, or how the same is being invested. Possibly information as to the proceeds of prizes dealt with in the London Prize Court might be obtained from the Admiralty Registrar or the Admiralty Marshal, but, as my Noble Friend is aware, prizes have been dealt with in several Courts abroad, as for instance Australia, Egypt, Ceylon, Gibraltar, and so on. As regards the distribution of prize money, I am afraid no answer can be given until the several questions involved in the Naval Prize Bill—which the Prime Minister, on 4th November, stated would be proceeded with without undue delay—have been finally settled. I should imagine that it will not be possible in any case to distribute prize money until after the close of hostilities, though, as I have several times stated, we very much hope that it will not be necessary to wait until the close of hostilities before making awards of prize bounty in the cases of particular actions. As regards the last part of the question, Section 21 of the Naval Agency and Distribution Act provides that any sum accruing as interest on prize money awaiting distribution under the direction of the Admiralty shall become part of the total sum available for distribution.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House the total amount of prize money due now?
Probably I could, so far as the money in the keeping of the London Court is concerned; but there are others abroad, as I have said.
Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether the relatives—widows, or other relatives— of the men who die in the War will receive the share of the prize money due to those who have fallen?
I think so, speaking off-hand.
They always did.
Is there any holding up of the Prize Bill? When does the right hon. Gentleman consider it will be drafted and proceeded with? In regard to prize bounty, is a Bill really necessary?
As regards prize bounty, a Bill is necessary, because we want discretion to fix the ship's agents' fees at a sum not exceeding 2½ per cent. Under the old law, as my hon. Friend knows, it is fixed at 2½ per cent., but we think that in some cases that might not be equitable, and that we should have power to fix it up to a maximum of 2½ per cent. Until we have got that power through this Bill, we cannot distribute the prize bounty.
What is the policy of the Government in relation to prize money which has been outstanding for several years and is still outstanding?
That is in another category to prize bounty. That is an award of another character. I do not think a Bill is necessary for that.
When will the Prize Bill be proceeded with?
The Prime Minister on 4th November said it would be proceeded with without undue delay. I am afraid I cannot add to that.
Naval Schoolmasters
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the disabilities attending the present rank of naval schoolmaster; and whether he can see his way to grant them on entry a higher rank, the status and privileges of acting warrant officer, and to promote them to full warrant rank after a period of four years' service as acting warrant officer?
The conditions of service of naval schoolmasters were exhaustively considered a few years ago, and considerable improvements in their pay and prospects were made in 1910. At that date the scale of pay of the class was improved all round. The number of chief and head schoolmasters was increased, thus giving better prospects of promotion. The maximum pension of chief schoolmasters was increased. The relative rank of lieutenant was granted to chief schoolmasters retired after three years' service in the rank. Improvements were also made in the scale of widows' pensions and of compassionate allowances to children. I regret that it is not practicable to reopen the question at the present time.
Royal Naval Division
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Royal Naval Division has been transferred to military command; and whether paragraph 443 of the King's Regulations for the Army or any other regulation of similar tenour applies to its members so as to prohibit expression of praise or censure of superiors or any others in His Majesty's Service and subscriptions for testimonials or presents to any such person?
Certain units of the Royal Naval Division are under military command. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.
Port of Liverpool (Labour)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that three ships of a total tonnage of about 35,000 tons were obliged to leave Liverpool last week for the United States in ballast because there was not sufficient labour to load them with the cargo ready for exportation; and whether he will take steps to provide more labour at this port?
My right hon. Friend has requested me to reply to this question. I am in communication with the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board as to the facts, and I will let my hon. Friend have the information he desires as soon as I am in a position to do so.
Recruiting
Bethnal Green Battalion
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has now received an application from the Mayor and Borough Council of Bethnal Green for permission to enrol a battalion to be called the Bethnal Green Battalion; and, if so, whether the application can be acceded to?
Yes, Sir. An application to raise a local battalion was received from the Mayor of Bethnal Green on the 19th November, but, as I have already informed the House, no more local units are being raised, and I regret that the offer made cannot, in consequence, be accepted. I hope that the Mayor and Borough Council of Bethnal Green will use their influence to promote recruiting generally.
Alleged False Statement by Recruit
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of a soldier in Kilwinning who was fined ÂŁl and whose father was fined ÂŁ2, on the ground that the lad had falsely stated his wages before enlistment to be 27s. per week; whether the pension officer privately investigated the soldier's earnings for six months prior to his enlistment and found the average to be 22s. 6d. per week; whether it was admitted in Court that for three weeks before enlistment the soldier, a miner, had earned 28s. a week; whether he is satisfied that under these circumstances the soldier was wilfully giving false information for fraudulent purposes; and whether a uniform basis will be provided for such wage calculations?
This case has been tried in the Sheriff Court, and I understand an appeal is pending. In these circumstances it would not be proper for me to express any opinion on the case.
Training of Recruits
asked what steps are being taken, in connection with the large number of recruits now being enrolled, to avoid any repetition of the delay and confusion which existed in training the recruits who joined the Colours in such large numbers in the earlier stages of the War?
I think my hon. Friend may rest assured that the necessary expansion of the machinery of training recruits has now been made, and that there will be no difficulty in dealing with any number that may be forthcoming. He will recollect that Lord Derby's scheme provides for recruits being called up in groups as they may be required.
asked what provision exists for the military training of the recruits now joining the Army; whether there are sufficient commissioned officers and non-commissioned officers of the new battalions; and whether the accommodation, outfit, and military equipment will be sufficient?
I am assured that there are sufficient commissioned officers and non-commissioned officers to carry out the training of recruits. I cannot enter into all the separate points raised in the question, but I may say that no difficulty is anticipated in the clothing of the recruits.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the War Office is making the best use for training purposes of private soldiers who have experience in the fighting line and who have been wounded, but not so seriously as to disable them completely from further military service or to require their immediate discharge to civil life; and whether he will consider the advisability of establishing a non-commissioned officers' training corps to which such private soldiers might be attached and drawn upon as required for training the new recruits?
The use of officers, non-commissioned officers, and men with war experience has always been fully utilised in training troops. Schools for non-commissioned officers have been established. Any private soldier fit for non-commissioned officers' rank is specially trained.
Employment of Orderlies
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of making some readjustment with regard to. the employment of orderlies, so as to enable as many young men as possible engaged in duties of this kind to be transferred to the fighting line?
Instructions have been in force since the beginning of the War to ensure that no men who are fit for general service are employed on duties which could equally well be performed by unfit soldiers or by civilians.
Agricultural Labourers
asked whether, seeing that while in some districts ordinary unskilled agricultural labourers have been starred, in a large number of others skilled agricultural workers essential to the conduct of the farm and the maintenance of its output of human food have been left unstarred and are now being attested for military service to the disheartenment or despair of their employers, steps will be taken to secure the exemption of these indispensable farm workers where, owing to the semi-industrial or urban character of the locality, the local arbitration tribunal will have little or no acquaintance with agricultural operations and their relative importance?
Ample precautions have been taken by which indispensable men will be returned to their employers.
Lord Derby's Scheme
Announcement by Prime Minister
asked the Prime Minister if his announcement on the 2nd November on the subject of national service and the statement of the Government's intentions in Lord Derby's letter of the 19th November, namely, that married men will not be called up until young unmarried men have been, and that if these young men do not come forward voluntarily the married men will be released from their pledge or a Bill will be introduced into Parliament to compel the young men to serve, applies equally to all parts of the United Kingdom?
My statement did not discriminate between local areas, but I have every reason to hope that it will not be necessary to propose such legislation for any part of the United Kingdom.
Questions
North Staffordshire Labour Party
asked the Prime Minister, whether he has received a resolution from the council of the North Staffordshire Labour party declaring its strongest opposition to compulsory military service, and expressing the opinion that if the pay for military service were equal to that for industrial service more than sufficient recruits would be forthcoming under the system of voluntary enlistment; and will he take this view into consideration?
Yes, Sir; I have received the resolution referred to. All relevant considerations will be taken into account.
Will the Prime Minister note for consideration the manifest injustice of compelling some men to accept employment in the Army at 1s. per day and leaving others in civil employment at higher wages?
That is rather argumentative. All these things will be taken into account.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take into account the fact that this is considered an injustice, and is retarding recruiting, seeing that he is prepared to stick at nothing— [Interruption.]
Missing Soldiers (Life Insurance Premiums)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the hardship inflicted on the relatives of soldiers who are reported as missing when the latter have been the holders of life insurance policies, having regard to the fact that some of the insurance companies still continue to collect the weekly and monthly premiums even when the certainty of the insured's death may be reasonably assumed; and, if so, will he consider what regulations can be issued and steps taken to prevent a continuance of this position?
Yes, Sir. This problem has been before me In the case of soldiers who have been reported missing and of whom no reliable information can be obtained within a reasonable period, death would be accepted for official purposes, but it will, I think, be obvious that sufficient period must have elapsed since the date on which the soldier was missing. I hope that this arrangement will meet the difficulties to which my hon. Friend alludes. I cannot think that any difficulty will be made by insurance companies in refunding payments which have been made subsequently to the date accepted officially for the death of the soldier.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what a "sufficient period" means?
It varies, of course, but it would have to be somewhere within the region of two or three months.
Is my right hon. Friend not aware that it is the invariable practice of insurance companies to return premiums so paid, in addition to the death benefit; and is he also aware that many policies have been honoured, and when, subsequently, individuals have been proved to be alive, it has been impossible to recover the money from the beneficiaries?
I hope my hon. Friend is not altogether accurate in his last statement, but, with regard to the first statement, I am very glad to hear corroborated what I assumed in the answer I gave.
Soldiers on Furlough (Meeting Trains)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many ladies in khaki uniform are under the control of the War Office; and if he will consider the possibility of sparing a few to meet the trains arriving at Victoria and Waterloo with soldiers on furlough from the front, and make some provision for their protection and comfort?
I fancy my hon. Friend must be referring to the Women's Reserve Ambulance. This organisation is not, however, under the control of the War Office, but I am informed by the Colonel and Officer Commanding, London Battalion, Mrs. Lintorn-Orman, that organised parties of the corps have been meeting furlough trains for several weeks past.
War Office Staff (Retired Officers)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that there is a feeling of disappointment among many officers who before the War had retired from the Army, but who have now been re-employed at the War Office, that though recommended in some cases for promotion they have been passed over, while other officers, also serving at the War Office, of no previous military training and experience, have been promoted; and whether he proposes to take any and what steps to remedy the grievance?
The rule which governs this matter is that rank is given commensurately with the functions to be exercised. I cannot, I fear, hold out hope that general promotion will be given.
In cases where promotion has been recommended, is it not possible for them to be considered by a Committee?
I do not see really that there is any reason for a Committee to consider them.
asked whether the question of the issue of ration allowance to officers serving at the War Office has yet been decided upon?
No issue has been made since April, and there the matter rests for the present.
Army Meat Ration
asked in what commands in this country the meat ration has been reduced below 1 lb. per head per diem; whether there have been any complaints in consequence of such reduction; and what is the total saving of national expenditure resulting therefrom?
I gave the information asked for in the first part of the question in reply to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for York on the 9th instant. No complaints in consequence of such reduction have been reported to the War Office. The saving is roughly estimated at ÂŁ3,500 a day.
Soldiers' and Sailors' Dependants
asked what allowance will be made to Mrs. Susannah Demain owing to the fact that her son Fred Stowel Demain, aged twenty-three years, No. 92,638, O battery, 74th Brigade, Royal Field Artillery, has been killed in France?
I will have inquiry made into this case at once and will, in due course, let my hon. Friend know the result.
Publications Posted to Neutral Countries
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that the understanding that publishers of newspapers and periodicals should continue to be allowed to post copies of their publications to neutral countries is not being observed by the War Office; that certain publishers have been refused the necessary permission and have been asked to send their publications through an agent; and whether, in view of the inconvenience and cost to the publisher involved by despatching through an agent, he will see that publishers are allowed to post their publications to neutral countries themselves?
I am not aware of any understanding such as that referred to by my hon. Friend. I am informed that a large proportion of the publishers have displayed great readiness to co-operate in the effective working of the present regulations by coming to an arrangement with an agent to whom a permit has been issued. The system which my hon. Friend suggests in his question would involve a large increase of staff, the cost of which would not be justified at the present time.
Territorial Force
Service Abroad
asked the Undersecretary of State for War what is the practice in the case of those men in Territorial battalions who enlisted on the outbreak of war for home service only; and whether these men can be sent to serve with their battalions abroad except by their own consent in writing?
The answer to the latter part of the question is in the negative. These men are being placed in provisional units for home service only, but, as I said the other day, it is hoped that these men will endeavour to overcome the circumstances which prevent their accepting Imperial service obligations, and so be able to reconsider their position and offer themselves for service abroad.
Staff Appointments
asked whether the General Officer Commanding of each division recommends officers in his division for Staff appointments; whether there are now complete Territorial divisions on the West front; how many Territorial officers in each of these divisions have been so recommended up to 31st October, and how many appointed up to 20th November?
It is open to a General Officer Commanding a division to make recommendations for Staff appointments. I believe my hon. and gallant Friend is right in supposing that there are complete Territorial divisions on the Western front. The answer to the last part of the question would involve reference to General Headquarters, where recommendations of the kind in question would be dealt with.
Unloading Sugar (Greenock)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether men of a Territorial Battalion were employed last month unloading sugar at Greenock from the ships "Strathgile" and "Corsemore," and were paid l½d. per hour (limited to 1s. per diem); and, if so, why were they not paid the usual dock labourers' wage, and who benefited by the transaction?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I imagine these men were being paid under the usual working pay rules, but I am obtaining information.
Questions
British Prisoners in Germany
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the sufferings of British prisoners in Germany; whether he is aware that the French Government have secured proper treatment of French prisoners in Germany by enforcing German conditions upon German prisoners in France; whether he is aware that this reciprocal treatment of German prisoners in France has had excellent results; and whether His Majesty's Government will now take steps to enforce reciprocal treatment of German prisoners in England in order to reduce the intolerable hardships which British prisoners in Germany are suffering?
The reports available go to show that in the majority of the prisoners of war camps in Germany the conditions and treatment of the prisoners have materially improved lately, owing to the unremitting exertions of the members of the United States Embassy in Berlin. As regards the last three parts of the question, I have no knowledge of any acts of reprisal by the French Government, who, I am informed, adhere strictly to the provisions of The Hague Convention; but further inquiry is being made. I have great sympathy with the hardships—sometimes unavoidable, but often, I fear, avoidable—undergone by the British prisoners of war in Germany, but it is not proposed to alter the treatment of the prisoners of war in this country.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that German officers in this country are obtaining game licences for shooting? Could not that be prevented?
I should require, if I may say so, further evidence as to that.
Royal Army Medical Corps (Examination)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that an inspector was sent by the General Medical Council to report on the examination by the Apothecaries Hall of Ireland of an officer, wounded in the Dardanelles, who desired to become qualified to serve in the Royal Army Medical Corps; and that the examiner in surgery, Dr. C. B. Maunsell, of Mercer's Hospital, who has himself been appointed by the General Medical Council to conduct the examination, thereupon refused to proceed with the examination, on the ground that there existed no statutory authority for the inquisition, that no inspection had ever been attempted to be made by the General Medical Council under similar circumstances for the past thirty years, and that it would be improper to subject an officer of His Majesty's Forces to espionage; whether he is aware that Dr. Maunsell has, in protest, since resigned the office of examiner in surgery to the Apothecaries Hall, to which he was appointed by the General Medical Council, and that no other Dublin surgeon can be induced to accept the office under the present conditions of espionage; whether, as a result, it is for the time being impossible for this medical licensing board to qualify men to serve in the Royal Army Medical Corps; and will he say what action he proposes to take in the matter?
I do not think I can add anything to the answer I gave to the hon. Gentleman on the 18th November. The Army Council has no power to intervene in this matter.
Soldiers' Pay and Allowances
asked what additional cost would be incurred were the pay of all soldiers receiving less than 5s. a day, inclusive of allowances, brought up to that standard?
The cost would be many millions. The possibility of any such action is so remote that my hon. Friend will, I am sure, spare my Department the labour of preparing an estimate.
Would the labour be so very great? If so, will the hon. Gentleman supply me with a few facts to enable me to make the calculation?
Yes, it would be very considerable.
Do I understand it would cost many millions? I would suggest it would not cost a great many millions.
I think it would cost a great many millions.
Officers' Retired Pay
asked the reasons why officers who were on the retired list and who are now being employed receive retired pay in addition to the full pay of their present appointments, when officers in the Navy, under similar circumstances, only receive full pay, together with a bonus of 25 per cent., calculated on their full pay without allowances?
The conditions of service in the Army and Navy are not identical. The existing rule as regards the re-employment of retired officers in the Army was adopted after full consideration and with the approval of the Treasury, as the results of the experience of the South African war. It must be remembered that the additional service now being given will not count for increase of retired pay, as was formerly the rule.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that thousands of men joined the Army at great sacrifice, and have made that great sacrifice without extra pay, while these retired officers are getting pay and a half?
My hon. Friend must bear in mind that these gentlemen who are giving their services are retired officers and have had the experience which that involves.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability, in the cause of economy, of reducing some of this expenditure?
I do rather wish to draw attention and emphasise the last part of the answer to my hon. Friend, that this additional service now being given by these officers will not count for increase of retired pay.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether there are not other and better means of economy than cutting down the pay of officers?
It is obvious from that question that there is not unanimity on the subject in the House.
asked the approximate total cost of retired pay of all officers who are also receiving the full pay of their present appointments for the three months ending 30th September?
At the outbreak of war, the retired pay of military officers was at the rate of about ÂŁ2,000,000 a year. I regret that there is no way of ascertaining how much of this is drawn by officers re-employed, without disproportionate labour.
Bully Beef
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office on what authority it is asserted that the Âľ lb. tins of bully beef are available for immediate use; and if he has received representations that the beef is so salt that it is uneatable until cleared of the brine?
The statement referred to was made on the authority of the officers responsible and represents the facts. No official representations have been made to the War Office that the beef is so salt as to be uneatable. The specification, on the contrary, lays down that there shall not be an excess of salt, and the manufacture is carried out under expert medical supervision. I have eaten some of the beef myself, and it is excellent. I invite my hon. Friend to taste it for myself.
Is my hon. Friend aware that New Zealanders never complain, and will he take evidence from the New Zealand soldiers now home from France, and other authorities, that the meat served to our troops is absolutely uneatable? It is so salt that it causes a large amount of diarrhœa and dysentery?
May I ask that a sample of this beef be put in the drinking bar?
I will consider that suggestion, but it will have to be inspected very quickly. With regard to the complaints made, I am sure if there is any reasonable ground even for suspicion that there is anything the matter with the food we will have the most searching inquiry made, but I can only say that nothing of the kind has reached the War Office from any responsible officer. I do not for a moment wish to appear to reflect upon the veracity of those who have brought the information to my hon. Friend. We all recognise fully the splendid services which the New Zealand troops have given, but I think there must be some misunderstanding in the matter. If my hon. Friend will give me further particulars, I will guarantee to have a full inquiry made.
Officers' Training Establishment, Fort Purbrook, Cosham
asked who is responsible for the charges for messing at the officers' training establishment at Fort Purbrook, Cosham, and is he aware that young officers there are obliged to pay 5s. 6d. a day for their mess, whereas they only pay about half that sum at a regimental mess where they have better food, and that dissatisfaction is felt on the subject?
Under the King's Regulations officers commanding are responsible that messes are conducted without unnecessary expense. I am informed that the daily charge at Fort Purbrook is 3s., and that there are no extras. If the hon. Gentleman has any specific information on this point perhaps he will be good enough to furnish me with it.
I will send the hon. Gentleman a letter from the father of one of these young officers.
Lahore Conspirators (Sentences)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Viceroy has reprieved any and, if so, how many of the Lahore conspirators who were sentenced to death; whether Har Dayal, the inspirer of this plot, was awarded a scholarship by the Punjab Government in order that he might pursue at Oxford the studies which resulted in this endeavour to seduce Indian troops and produce revolution, and to manufacture explosives for the destruction of British lives and public and private property; and, if so, whether more scholarships will in similar circumstances be awarded?
The Governor-General in Council has commuted to transportation for life the sentences of sixteen out of twenty-four persons condemned to death by the Lahore Special Tribunal. Har Dayal, who had previously borne a good character, was awarded a Government scholarship by the Punjab Government in 1905. He resigned it in 1907. I am not prepared to suggest that all scholarships should be suspended because one scholar has turned out ill.
Did the right hon. Gentleman notice that I said, "in order that he might pursue at Oxford the studies which resulted in this endeavour," and there was no such implication intended?
I did notice the particular words quoted in my hon. Friend's question, but I am unaware of the meaning he attaches to them. If he suggests that the scholarship was given to him in order that he might pursue studies in sedition and murder, it is obviously absurd, and I am sure my hon. Friend never meant anything of the kind.
Raw Cotton (Exports from India and Japan)
asked whether raw cotton is now being exported in large and increasing quantities from India to Japan, whence it is returned to the former country in the shape of manufactured piece goods, the imports of which are increasing in such quantities as to compete successfully with the like locally made goods and to threaten Lancashire products of the same character; and whether there is any reason to suppose that the Japanese Government is giving a bounty and Japanese shipping companies are quoting specially low rates of freight in this behalf?
Exports of raw cotton from India to Japan for the six months from April to September, 1915, amount to rather over 3,000,000 cwt., an advance of about 30 per cent. on the corresponding figures for the previous two years. Imports of cotton piece goods into India from Japan have considerably increased during the present year. I have no information that the Japanese Government give bounties in respect of these exports. If my hon. Friend can offer proof of that suggestion I shall be glad to be furnished with it.
Domestic Economies
asked (1) the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the decision on the part of a large number of the local authorities to take no action whatever in spreading the information contained in pamphlets circulated to them by the Board of Education explaining methods by which culinary and other domestic economies may be practised advantageously during the War in the homes of the poor, on the ground that in the first place precept should be addressed to, and practice commence with, the well-to-do; whether the Government propose to make their economy literature more convincing by public admonition addressed to, or restrictive legislation imposed upon, the more thoughtless and fashion-bound among the latter class; and (2) whether he realises the difficulty experienced by those who, on behalf of the Parliamentary War Savings Committee, have been endeavouring to impress upon the working-class population the advantages to the nation of their thrift and economy, and of the investment of any savings from their wages in War Loan vouchers, owing to the evident and obvious continuance of extravagant habits, even in face of national peril, among a certain section of the fashionable plutocracy; and whether, in order to carry greater conviction to the minds of the proletariat and to facilitate the task of the Government missionaries of thrift, he will make it evident as soon as possible that the Government mean to begin at the top, and not to require of the poor domestic and personal sacrifices which they are not prepared to insist upon, according to their means, in the case of the rich, or even of Members of Parliament?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that costly and extravagant luxuries in the shape of furs, jewellery, costly food, and drink still find ready and, in some directions, increasing sale in this country; and whether, in view of the fact that the present apparent prosperity is wholly fictitious and illusory and will have to be paid for at a later stage by deepened poverty and distress, he will outline what steps, apart from platform exhortations, the Government propose to take in order to cut out ruthlessly from the national life every form of luxury, extravagance, and waste?
No such action as is suggested in the first part of this question has been brought to my notice. After the grave words used by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer last Monday it ought to be clear that His Majesty's Government will not hesitate to adopt whatever means may be appropriate and effective for bringing home to all classes of the community the necessity for the exercise of rigorous economy.
Gold Exportation
asked whether, failing the publication of any official list, he will state, for public information and guidance, the chief commodities the importation of which from abroad involves the export of large quantities of gold, and the restricted consumption of which by patriotic citizens would aid the Government in the successful prosecution of the War?
Restriction of consumption of any commodities which are not essential to the maintenance of efficiency is calculated to reduce the need for the export of gold, since such restriction will either release productive resources at home, and thus facilitate a larger production for export, or it will reduce imports and thus diminish the amount for which it is necessary to find a means of payment abroad.
Woolwich (Prohibited Area)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that Woolwich is not a prohibited area for alien enemies; if he will say on what principle areas are scheduled as prohibited areas; whether he is aware that an important Government arsenal is situate at Woolwich, and that 225 alien enemies are at large in the borough of Woolwich and the neighbouring village of Charlton; and whether he will take immediate steps to have Woolwich and the neighbouring district scheduled as a prohibited area?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question, as the Aliens Restriction Act is administered by the Home Office. The localities to be made prohibited areas have been selected in consultation with the Admiralty or War Office on the principle of scheduling those where the presence of aliens was likely to be a danger. Woolwich lies on both sides of the river: the Arsenal is surrounded on three sides by a high wall and on the fourth by the river, and access to it can be gained only through certain gates which are specially staffed so as to maintain effective supervision over persons going in and out. In these circumstances it has not been deemed necessary to make Woolwich a prohibited area, the Arsenal being safe- guarded by its wall and river approach. Any special risk which might have arisen from the presence of unexempted aliens in this neighbourhood at the outbreak of war has now been removed by the internment of all alien enemies, except those permitted to be at large for special reasons. Of the males exempted many are in North Woolwich, and as to others circumstances may now permit of the carrying out of a number of internments which have hitherto been postponed at the request of the Admiralty. In any case the police best discharge their duty by concentrating on the points where they can guard effectively against agents of the enemy, and recent experience has shown that these may not be themselves enemy aliens, or even persons of hostile origin.
Unemployment (German Manufactures)
asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been directed to a resolution passed by the executive council of the Association of Chambers of Commerce of the United Kingdom on the 9th November urging that the Government should prepare plans for preventing unemployment after the War being caused by German manufacturers pouring into this country large quantities of manufactured goods at low prices, and to secure continuity of business for those who have undertaken enterprises with the hope of obtaining a portion of the trade formerly done in competition with British subjects by those countries with whom we are at present at war; and if he can make a statement as to the policy of the Government in dealing with these questions?
asked the Prime Minister, in view of the growing sentiment against the resumption after the War of normal commercial dealings with our present enemies and in favour of commercial co-operation with our Allies, whether he will give an undertaking that the provisions of the Trading With the Enemy Act, 1914, shall be continued until after the electors shall have had an opportunity at a General Election of determining the future commercial policy of the nation?
The matter referred to and cognate matters are already being made the subject of close and systematic inquiry.
( later ): On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Question 54 standing in my name and addressed to the Prime Minister was not called from the Chair. I received no intimation that the right hon. Gentleman wished it to be withdrawn, and the first intimation I had that it was not going to be put was when you, Sir, passed it over. May I respectfully ask the reason why it was not called?
It was answered in conjunction with another question.
I answered it.
I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. I did not catch that.
Army General Staff
asked the Prime Minister whether he can give any further information as to the steps being taken or in contemplation for the reconstitution of the great General Staff of the Army?
Various steps have been taken by additions to personnel and redistribution of functions to increase the effectiveness and to make more constant use of the advice of the General Staff. It is not desirable to give detailed particulars.
Can my right hon. Friend say whether, in view of the great importance of his functions, the Chief of the Imperial Staff will be restored to his position of first military member of the Army Council, and relieved of his duties which do not bear directly upon the conduct of the War?
As a matter of fact, under a recent Order in Council, the members of the Army Council take precedence by their military seniority. That does not in the least degree affect the authority of the Chief of the General Staff.
Does not my right hon. Friend see that it affects the importance of the office?
No one is more alive than I am to the importance of maintaining the authority of the Chief of the General Staff. I can assure my hon. Friend that it will not be in the least impaired.
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the dissatisfaction caused by the regulations of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic); if he has considered whether the Central Board have outstepped the duties which they were appointed for in making these regulations; if the Government will consider withdrawing the said regulations; and, if not, will they compensate the licensed traders for their losses by exempting them from Licence Duty and taxes during the period of the War?
Munitions
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the discontent among the workers engaged in the transport and metal trades arising out of the difficulty of obtaining refreshment and food when on overtime and night work where the restrictions of the Liquor Control Board operate; if so, will steps be taken to amend such restrictions and to limit further application to districts not yet covered; and whether, in order to obtain accurate information as to the facts of the case, he will consult responsible officers of trade union organisations?
My right hon. Friend is aware that discontent has been expressed in certain quarters at the enactment of the restrictive Orders of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic). The Board have always been willing to consider any suggestions, and it has further been their practice to consult responsible representatives of labour organisations before making their Orders. It is necessary to take into account the purpose for which the Board was appointed, and the beneficial results which they are achieving. The Canteen Committee of the Board is actively engaged both in stimulating the provision of canteens by employers and in arranging directly for their provision. All the projectile and national factories are being provided with canteens.
Will the House have an opportunity between this and Monday of discussing these drastic regulations?
That is a question which the hon. Gentleman should address to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.
asked the Minister of Munitions why the Board of Control (Liquor Traffic) decided on the new measures for the London area; and what are the statistics which influenced their decision?
I am informed by the Central Control Board that the London Order was made after local conferences and discussions with representative public men and deputations, and very full consideration of evidence both oral and written. Statistics constitute but one factor among the matters which have been considered.
Employment Regulations
asked the Minister of Munitions to how many establishments approximately, apart from controlled establishments, the provisions of Clause 7 of the Munitions Act, prohibiting, under penalty of six weeks' unemployment, any workman leaving his employment without the consent of his employer, have been applied by Order or are in contemplation; approximately, how many workpeople are employed in such establishments; what steps are taken to make known to the workpeople concerned that they have been brought under this law; whether, in return for this assistance to the employers, they are subjected to any limitation of profits like the controlled establishments and, if HO, by what rules or other provisions; whether he will present to Parliament, or otherwise publish in the "Labour Gazette" or elsewhere, the conditions made with such employers for the protection of the workpeople, seeing that they are prohibited from striking, and even from leaving their employment, against reductions of wages, refusal to pay the standard rate, or neglect to observe standard conditions and other encroachments; if no such special protection is provided for the workpeople, how he suggests that they should defend themselves against the continual petty encroachments which cause so much industrial discontent; and whether the need for such protection is being considered in drafting the Munitions Act Amendment Bill?
The matters raised by my hon. Friend's question are difficult to deal with adequately by question and answer. As my hon. Friend is aware, my right hon. Friend is proposing at an early date to introduce a Bill to amend certain provisions of the Munitions of War Act, and I would suggest that he should wait until that Bill is published.
Canadian Workers
asked the Minister of Munitions whether for a considerable time after beginning work in this country the Canadian munition workers received no subsistence allowance, and that many of them received far less in wages than they had been led to expect; that numbers of them, finding it impossible in these circumstances to keep their homes going in Canada, sent passage money for their wives and children to come to this country; and whether, in view of the fact that the bringing over of families necessitated by Government delay in granting subsistence allowance has imposed a serious burden on the resources of these workers, he will take steps to compensate them for the outlay involved?
The Canadian munition workers received from the outset the full amount of all allowances to which they were entitled under the agreement signed by them, and I have ascertained that no exaggerated statements as to the wages obtainable in this country were made by or on behalf of the Board of Trade representatives in Canada. Later a special privilege was granted to these workers by the payment, over and above the allowance due to them under agreement, of an allowance to their dependants in Canada, and these subsistence allowances are now being paid. There is no ground for speaking of delay in the granting of subsistence allowances, since the workers in question had no claim whatever to receive these allowances. I do not think that the Government can undertake to extend this allowance or to pay any compensation of the kind suggested by my hon. Friend, and in this connection I may mention that the agreement signed by (the workmen expressly provided that no families would be brought over at the Government's or the employer's expense.
Housing Accommodation (Sheffield)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has so far found it possible to carry out his promise to have inquiry made into the housing accommodation and increased rents in Sheffield; if so, whether any report has been received; and whether such report will be made public?
The question of the insufficiency of housing accommodation in the Sheffield area has been investigated, and schemes for the provision of both permanent and temporary accommodation have been drawn up and agreed upon with the local authority, and are being carried out as expeditiously as possible. With regard to the raising of rents, the President of the Local Government Board has already stated that a Bill will be introduced very shortly.
Women Workers (Suggested Tribunal)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the fact that there are or will shortly be several hundred thousand women working under the provisions of the Munitions of War Act, and that cases are coming before the Munitions Tribunal in which complaints, are made of improper behaviour of foremen, inadequacy of sanitary accommodation, and unhealthy conditions of work, he will consider the expediency of providing, in the amendment of the Munitions of War Act now under consideration, that at least one of the members of any Munitions Tribunal dealing with cases in which girls or women are concerned shall be a woman?
There are considerable practical difficulties in giving effect to the suggestion made in the question, but it will be borne in mind. I may point out that the particular subjects of complaint specified have for some time been under the consideration of the Health of Munition Workers Committee, which is advising my right hon. Friend on these and kindred matters.
Board of Admiralty (Collective Responsibility)
asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government will now rescind the Order in Council of January, 1869, and restore to the Board of Admiralty the collective responsibility in force before the Order in Council herein mentioned?
The Order in Council of January, 1869, was rescinded by the Order in Council of the 19th March, 1872. The collective responsibility of the Board of Admiralty continues to exist. The tradition has not been interrupted by the various Orders in Council which have been passed to define the individual responsibilities of the several members of the Board.
Anglo-French Armies
asked the Prime Minister whether the possible advantage has been considered of placing all the land forces, French and English, on the Western front under one supreme individual commander, as would be the case if the English and French Grand Fleets were operating together?
This has not been considered advisable.
asked the Prime Minister whether any arrangement has been made to permit or facilitate an interchange of Staff officers between the French and our Armies whereby we may obtain on occasion, until the Staffs of our New Armies can be fully selected, sufficiently trained and carefully tested, the services of technically highly-educated French officers accustomed to deal with great masses of soldiers in the field?
Officers on the Staffs of armies are carefully selected, and have been thoroughly tested by actual trial during the War, before they are placed in these positions. At least two-thirds of the Staffs of New Army Divisions have had experience in the War. French officers are attached to British Army Staffs, and their technical knowledge and experience can thus always be made use of. Similarly British officers are attached to the French Forces.
Finance (No. 3) Bill
Income Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been directed to the amounts which co-operative wholesale and retail societies apply out of trading profits to purposes of reserve and insurance; is he aware that from 1898 to 1913, while sales and profits of these societies doubled, the appropriations to reserve and insurance increased fivefold; if Income Tax is levied upon any portion of the amounts so appropriated; and, if not, will he explain the exemption granted to large trading organisations which are in competition with private firms and companies?
If the sums carried to reserve were charged to Income Tax under Schedule D, the societies would be entitled to an allowance against the assessment in respect of the larger sums on which they now pay tax under Schedule A. The charge would not result in any additional yield of revenue.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that The Co-operative Wholesale Society made about 32 per cent. of net profit a year and distributed only 4 per cent. to their shareholders, and does he not consider that the 28 per cent. retained ought to be made liable to Income Tax?
That opens up a very large question, with which I do not think I could deal by way of an answer across the floor of the House.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the 4 per cent. is distributed as a dividend and is not capital at all?
I have already said that this is a very large question, and I would not like to enter upon it now.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he intends the concession in respect of Income Tax that he proposes to make to soldiers and sailors to apply to sailors serving in the Navy auxiliaries, transports, mine sweepers, and other vessels employed by His Majesty in the conduct of the War?
The concession to soldiers and sailors whose income from all sources does not exceed ÂŁ300 a year will apply to all persons in receipt of pay from Navy or Army Votes for naval or military service in connection with the present War.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the estimated loss to the Treasury by reason of providing that soldiers and sailors serving in the armed Forces of the Crown whose incomes from all sources does not exceed ÂŁ300 shall be relieved of all liability to pay Income Tax on their pay at any higher rate than that provided in Section 3 of the Finance Act of 1914; and if he can state what the loss to the Treasury would be of freeing from Income Tax in excess of that provided in Section 3 of the Finance Act of 1914 all Army and Navy pay that does not exceed ÂŁ300 and ÂŁ400, respectively, in the case of each officer, non-commissioned officer, warrant officer, or man, without regard to any other source of individual income, deducting such Income Tax only from the pay, and consequently imposing no obligation in any case to claim return or rebate in respect of this provision?
Section 3 of the Finance Act, 1914, deals with Super-tax, and I presume the hon. Member intends to refer to Sections 2 and 4 of that Act. The estimate asked for in the first part of the question may be put at ÂŁ590,000 for a full year, and in the second and third parts at ÂŁ635,000 and ÂŁ720,000, respectively.
Excess Profits Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether expert lecturers and writers on the War who are reputed to be making large profits will be liable under the Finance (No. 3) Bill to pay Excess Profits Tax?
I may refer my hon. Friend to Clause 37 of the Bill (as amended in Committee), from which he will see that the reply to his question is in the negative.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether directors of companies receiving commissions out of profits in their employment as managing directors, and therefore servants of a company, would be liable under the Finance Bill to pay Excess Profits Tax?
Excess Profits Duty is a charge in respect of profits arising from a trade or business, and special provisions are made in Rule 5 of Part I. of the Fourth Schedule to the Bill for the calculation of such profits in relation to the remuneration paid to directors.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why he has withdrawn his proposal to apply the Excess Profits Tax to ship sales; and what estimate has he had before him of the probable yield should the tax be so applied?
I propose to introduce a substituted Amendment on the Report stage of the Bill, which will afford a more convenient opportunity for discussion than is possible by way of question and answer. Perhaps I might add that the Financial Secretary outlined the nature of the proposal which we shall make on the Report stage.
Trade Credit
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that extravagance among all classes in Great Britain is largely traceable to the system of allowing trade credit, he will consider the desirability during the War of disallowing such credit altogether?
I presume the hon. and gallant Member has in mind credit given by retail traders in respect of goods supplied for domestic consumption and not trade credit generally, the stoppage of which would necessarily bring production and distribution to a standstill. But even within this narrower limit I fear the suggestion would not be practicable.
American Securities
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, any plan has yet been formulated by the Government for acquiring American securities now privately owned in this country; whether the communiqué which has appeared was authorised by him; and whether an opportunity will be given for discussing the plan before it is put into operation?
Proposals have been made to certain institutions which are believed to be large holders of American securities with a view to their placing their holdings at the disposal of the Government. These proposals are at present confidential, and the statement which has appeared in the Press on the subject was unauthorised. I propose to make a full statement to the House before any invitation is issued to the public generally, and opportunity for discussion will be given upon that statement.
National Insurance Act
Supply of Drugs
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the scarcity and high price of aspirin and other salicylates, also of all coal-tar products such as phenacitin, antipyrin, etc., and of drugs requiring spirit in their manufacture; what steps he proposes to take to secure an adequate supply at a reasonable price during the War, in view of the large requirements of the hospitals; and whether he proposes to secure a larger production of drugs in this country by permitting the use of spirit free of all duty in their manufacture?
The question of maintaining the supply of these important drugs has received very careful consideration at the hands of the Department of the Insurance Commissioners. I fear that it is not possible within the limits of a Parliamentary reply to give any adequate statement of the steps that have been, and are being taken, to deal with the situation; but I understand that the position as regards available supplies is on the whole improving, and that there is no reason to anticipate any serious shortage in the future. It is not practicable to allow the use of duty-free spirit in the manufacture of drugs generally, but so far as it is practicable, it is or will be allowed under the terms of the Circular of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether that improved supply refers to a supply of drugs manufactured in this country or imported from abroad?
I should like notice of that question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of these drugs have registered names, and that the same drugs under other names can be obtained at cheaper prices and in fairly free amounts?
I think I ought to have notice of that question.
Balkans Campaign
Military Organisation (Newspaper Criticisms)
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the Russian newspaper "Ruskoe Slovo," of 17/30 October last, in which it is stated that articles on military matters published in certain English papers were made known widely in Greece, Roumania, and Bulgaria by the German Wolff Agency as a proof that the English acknowledged the shortcomings of their military organisation; and whether, in view of this circumstance, the Government will take steps to prevent any further articles appearing in the Press calculated to convey erroneous impressions prejudicial to the cause of the Allies?
I am obliged to the hon. Member for calling my attention to this short but striking illustration of the advantage which the enemy seeks to gain from a section of British newspaper comment. The matter is under consideration.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the article was?
The statement in the Russian paper was very brief. I will read it:—
"In newspaper circles here they lay a heavy responsibility on the English papers belonging to Lord Northcliffe, namely, 'Daily Mail' and 'Times,' for the failure experienced by the diplomacy of the Entente in the Balkans. After the quarrel of the owner of the 'Daily Mail' and 'Times' with the English Government these papers systematically began to blacken all the military and diplomatic measures of the English Government, and to foretell failure for the Allies. The Germans have naturally made wide use of this campaign of the 'Times' and 'Daily Mail' for their own propaganda in Greece, Roumania and Bulgaria, where they still consider the 'Times' semi-official. The articles by Colonel Repington have been disseminated by the German Wolff Agency with the view to proving that the English themselves recognise the deficiencies in their military organisation and their readiness for carrying on the War. Papers published in Roumania and Greece, at German expense, fill their columns with extracts from the 'Daily Mail' and 'Times' without any comment."
Can my right hon. Friend say whether Lord Northcliffe has quarrelled with the Government?
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the fact that the Paris "Daily Mail," issued by the same firm, contains references and so-called information far worse than those quoted, and that this paper is circulated widely among our troops in France, reaching them twenty-four hours in advance of the English papers?
I did not know that the Paris "Daily Mail" was worse.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it was the article by Colonel Repington referred to in that extract which led to the establishment of the Ministry of Munitions? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]
We have still a number of questions to get through.
Alien Enemies
asked the Home Secretary (1) whether any modification has been made in the policy for dealing with alien enemies, namely, that all non-naturalised adult male aliens should be interned or, if over military age, repatriated, and that women and children in suitable cases should be repatriated; if he will say how many of the 40,000 alien enemies who were at large on the 13th of May have since been interned and repatriated, respectively; how many applications for exemption have been heard and granted respectively by the Advisory Committee since its formation; and, seeing that six months have elapsed since the Prime Minister announced this policy, if he will say how soon the process of internment and repatriation of alien enemies will be completed; and (2) whether the rate of progress in carrying out the internment or repatriation of all alien enemies has been as rapidly increased since the 17th June as he then anticipated; whether he is aware that six months after the declaration by the Prime Minister of a more thorough policy in this respect there remain at large 255 alien enemies in the neighbourhood of Woolwich Arsenal; and whether he will take immediate steps to intern these aliens without exception or to remove them from a district where a hostile act or the conveyance of information might be attended by disastrous consequences?
There has been no modification in the policy announced by the Prime Minister on the 13th May, and the process of interning and repatriating all alien enemies not exempted by the Advisory Committees is practically complete. The number interned has risen from 19,569 on the 13th May to 32,440 on the 22nd instant, a net increase of 12,871. The number repatriated in the same period, including children, is 9,469.
The figures asked for as to the applications for exemption are as follows:—
Defence of the Realm Act
Munition Manufacture in America
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to a case at the Buxton Police Court, on 18th November, in which a man called Newbold pleaded guilty to an offence under the Defence of the Realm Act, and was sentenced to a fine of ÂŁ25; whether the offence was sending a contribution to an American pro-German newspaper, in which he appealed to American workers to put a stop to the manufacture of munitions for the Allies and to compel the Government of the United States to place an embargo on the export of war materials; whether a letter written by Newbold was read in Court in which he disclosed his intention of proceeding to America before the 30th of November, in order to escape the obligation of military service, and in order to carry on a propaganda in the United States against the interest of this country; and whether it is the intention of the Government to allow this man to leave the country?
The facts of the case seem to be substantially as stated in the question. As regards the last paragraph, Mr. Newbold, if of military age, will come within the decision of the Government which I announced the other day, that British subjects of military age will not be permitted to leave the United Kingdom at the present time except for good reason.
Questions
Soldiers of No Religious Denomination
asked the Undersecretary of State for War what arrangements are made for those soldiers in the Army who do not belong to any religious denomination; whether such men are placed in the guard room for many hours every Sunday; and, if so, what is the reason for this practice?
The allegation made in the question is of such a remarkable and serious character that I have thought fit to have a very close inquiry made. The result of this is not yet available, but I feel quite sure that my hon. Friend's suggestions that there is a general practice of placing soldiers who do not belong to any religious denomination in the guard room every Sunday is entirely without foundation.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that I did not make any general statement, but that I sent him particulars of a case that was brought to my notice?
I noticed that; but I think my observation equally applies.
Will the right hon. Gentleman communicate to the House the result of his inquiries?
Yes, Sir, I have already promised to do so.
Cotton Samples (Postage to Holland)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether certain Bradford merchants have been strongly censured and warned by the Board of Customs and Excise because they sent to Holland small samples of cotton material by parcels post without a licence, while at the same time they were informed that similar samples (even of prohibited or restricted goods) might be sent by sample post without any licence; and, if so, whether he will explain the meaning of this difference of treatment?
I have been asked to answer this question, which cannot be satisfactorily dealt with except upon a statement of the facts, and if the hon. Member will provide me with such a statement, I will have inquiries made and inform him of the result.
Hospitals in France (Parcel Post)
asked the Postmaster-General who is responsible for the return, undelivered, of a parcel addressed to Private Avis, 6,846, 2 R.W. Surrey, No. II. Ward, No. 6 General Hospital, Rouen, France, marked "Present location uncertain," which was posted in London on the 3rd of November, seeing that the addressee was then, and still is, a patient in the hospital mentioned?
A parcel so addressed would be delivered by the Army Post Office to the post orderly of the hospital; any endorsement made on the parcel after delivery would be made by the authorities of the hospital.
Gallipoli (Postal Arrangements)
asked the Postmaster-General whether dissatisfaction continues to exist among the troops on the Gallipoli Peninsula owing to the irregularity of the postal deliveries and the inadequate arrangements made for such deliveries; and whether, in conjunction with the military and naval authorities, he will take steps to fix the responsibility for the existing unsatisfactory state of affairs, and to make effective the measures of amelioration recently promised by him?
Arrangements have now been concluded with the French authorities for the use for letter mails of French ships from Marseilles, and the first dispatch was made on the 12th instant. An accelerated parcel post service viâ Malta began on the 19th instant. I fear, however, that the postal service to the Dardanelles will always be subject to irregularity, as the mails are conveyed over a great part of their journey by a series of transports, which sail at no stated intervals.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how far the responsibility of his Department extends in connection with these letters and parcels? I recognise the difficulties.
I cannot deal with so technical and complicated a matter in answer to a question, but I shall be very glad to send my hon. and gallant Friend a statement which has been prepared, which gives in some detail the arrangements for forwarding parcels and letters to the Dardanelles.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Greek Post Office in, any sort of way interferes in this matter?
No, Sir.
Increases of House Rent (Mobberley, Cheshire)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the action of a landlord in Mobberley, Cheshire, who, since the commencement of the War, has acquired twenty cottages in this parish and has recently given all the tenants notice of increasing their rent 100 per cent. and in some cases more than 100 per cent.; whether he is aware that there are no other cottages that these tenants can go into and that they are faced with the problem of either leaving the village and seeking work elsewhere or else paying double their present rents; whether he is investigating the circumstances; and whether he will introduce legislation to deal with cases of this description?
My hon. and gallant Friend has been good enough to send me particulars of the cape, and I am causing some investigation to be made.
Underground Electric Railway
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the event of the Underground Electric Company desiring to extend their system to South London and obtaining the necessary powers, he would be prepared to favourably consider giving sanction to the company to raise the fresh capital necessary for the purpose?
I am afraid I cannot answer a hypothetical inquiry of this kind. It is impossible to express any opinion as to any given case unless and until full particulars are submitted.
National Insurance Act
Scottish Panel Chemists (Tariff)
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether the new suggested drug tariff, submitted to Scottish panel chemists for 1916, may be regarded as definitely withdrawn; if so, whether this is largely due to the opinion expressed by the chemists themselves that the suggestions of the Departmental Committee on this point were financially unsound; whether, before this new tariff was suggested, steps were taken to ascertain whether the Scottish Insurance Commissioners considered that it would be workable in Scotland; whether the English Commissioners have at their disposal an organisation corresponding to the central checking bureau in Glasgow; and to what extent, if any, expenditure has been required in Scotland arising out of or corresponding to the 1913–14 Treasury Grant of £60,000 for excessive sickness in England and Wales?
As considerable misapprehension appears to exist on this matter, the House will perhaps allow me to deal with it at somewhat greater length than is usual in an oral reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. Owing to the dissatisfaction expressed throughout Great Britain with certain features of the existing drug tariff, a Departmental Committee on the subject was appointed in February last. Their report was laid upon the Table in September, and the terms of service for 1916 offered to chemists in Great Britain under the National Insurance Acts are in accordance with their recommendations. Scottish chemists were represented upon the Committee, and four out of the eleven days on which the Committee heard evidence were devoted to evidence as to Scottish conditions, two days being occupied in hearing the secretary to the body which I believe represents Scottish chemists. As, however, this body is understood to desire an opportunity of amplifying the views expressed to the Committee, I have undertaken to receive any such statement within a period which will allow the position in Scotland to be re-examined before the 1st July next. Until that date I have undertaken that the existing tariff shall continue in force in Scotland, although the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain have recommended chemists in England and Wales to accept terms of service embodying the tariff recommended by the Committee as from the 1st January next. I need not remind the hon. Member that the financial results of the tariff thus recommended are capable of demonstration, and I have not yet been supplied with any evidence that these results would be inequitable in their working in Scotland. But, as I have stated above, it remains open to the representatives of Scottish chemists to adduce evidence to this effect.
I fear that I do not understand the suggestion in the third part of the question. The hon. Member will be aware that the object of a Minister in remitting any question to a Departmental Committee is to obtain from them recommendations based upon such evidence as they decide to take on matters within their terms of reference. But I have already indicated how fully the Committee in fact inquired into the position before making their report. The answer to the fourth part of the question is in the negative; but the hon. Member may be sure that insurance committees in each part of Great Britain are equally desirous of preventing extravagance in prescribing, whatever the precise form of organisation adopted by them for the purpose; and one advantage of the tariff recommended by the Committee will be to assist them in such endeavours. The grant referred to in the last part of the question was voted to meet any need for its application arising in any part of Great Britain. No such need has in fact arisen in Scotland, except for a small sum granted in 1914 to meet the enhanced cost of certain drugs under war conditions. For the purpose of removing misconceptions on the whole subject, I have arranged for a communication to be sent to each panel chemist in Scotland. I shall have pleasure in sending a copy of that communication to the hon. Member. I may say, in apology to the House, that there are five rather difficult questions dealt with in this one question.
Seeing that it has broken down, why insist on forcing on Scotland something they do not want?
I am sending a copy of the statement to my hon. Friend.
New Regulations (Medical Protest)
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether the action of the National Insurance Commissioners in introducing new regulations at the present time is considered by many members of the medical profession as a breach of the promise given by Sir Robert Morant in his letter to the secretary of the British Medical Association, dated 17th March, 1915, as well as of the terms of the official circular 201/1 C, and, if so, whether it has his sanction; has he been supplied with copies of the resolutions passed on 26th October last by the London Panel Committee and by a mass meeting of practitioners at Bristol on 11th November; and is he aware of the action recently taken by members of the Kent panel, in inviting doctors to withdraw their services after 31st December?
No, Sir; there has been no breach of any promises given, and I have no reason to think that medical practitioners generally are under any such mistaken impression as is suggested in the question in regard to the revision of the terms of their agreements with insurance committees for the year 1916. As I explained in my reply to the hon. Member for London University on the 17th instant, of which I will send my hon. Friend a copy, the documents mentioned in the first part of the question dealt only with contingencies contemplated during the year 1915 which have not, in fact, arisen. Steps have been taken to remove any misapprehensions which may have been caused in the areas mentioned in the last part but one of the question. I have not previously heard of the circumstances referred to in the last part, but if doubts are created in any practitioner's mind as to the facts of the position, he can obtain full information either from the insurance committee or from my Department.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
I beg to ask the Prime Minister if he can state what is the business for to-morrow?
The Notice of Motion standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary (Parliament and Registration—leave to introduce —Bill) at the commencement of business to-day will not be taken this week.
To-morrow the President of the Local Government Board will introduce the Rent Bill, upon which there will be an opportunity for a general discussion.
Then we shall take the Money Resolution with regard to Government War Obligations, and, if time permits, the Second Reading of the Evidence (Amendment) Bill, and the Midwives' (Scotland) Bill.
Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate now when the Report stage of the Finance (No. 3) Bill is likely to be taken?
Not next week.
Is it still the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to introduce the Parliament and Registration Bill under the Ten Minutes' Rule, and, in view of the fact that the matters dealt with are not necessarily cognate matters, will he consider the advisability of having two Bills instead of one?
The Bill has not yet been introduced. I will consider the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion.
Is it not the case that the title of the Bill suggests that it deals with the life of Parliament and the question of Registration upon which the next election will take place; will not the right hon. Gentleman consider it more convenient to have two Bills instead of one; and, further, will he reconsider the question of introducing such an important Bill under the Ten Minutes' Rule?
The title of the Bill is:—
"A Bill to amend the Parliament Act, 1911, in connection with the present War, and to suspend further the machinery for the Registration of Electors."
That is all. I will consider the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion.
What about the Ten Minutes' Rule?
I cannot say anything at the moment about that.
Government War Obligations
Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament and, if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund, of such sums as may be required for giving effect to obligations incurred for the purposes of the present War or in connection therewith, by or on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and for other purposes in relation thereto (King's Recommendation signified), To-morrow.—[ Mr. Walter Rea. ]
Indian Civil Service (Temporary Provisions) Bill.— [Lords.]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Appoint to Indian Civil Service without Examination.)
(1) The Secretary of State in Council may with the advice and assistance of the Civil Service Commissioners make rules providing for the admission and appointment to the Indian Civil Service by the Secretary of State in Council, during the continuance of the present War, and for a period not exceeding two years thereafter, of British subjects possessing such qualifications with respect to age and otherwise as may be prescribed by the rules, notwithstanding that they have not been certified as being entitled for appointment as the result of examination in accordance with the regulations and rules made under Section thirty-two of the Government of India Act, 1858, and Section ninety-seven of the Government of India Act, 1915:
Provided that—
( a ) not less than one-fourth of the persons admitted to the Indian Civil Service during such period as aforesaid shall be persons who have been so certified as aforesaid; and
( b ) a person shall not be appointed to the Indian Civil Service under the rules made under this Section unless the Secretary of State in Council has, with the advice and assistance
(2) The provisions as to the laying before Parliament of regulations and rules made under the said Sections thirty-two and ninety-seven shall apply to the rules made under this Section.
I beg, in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ), to move, after the word "Section" ["under the rules made under this Section"], to insert the words "unless he shall have actually served with the Forces of the Crown."
I understood this Bill was intended to provide for the appointment of such persons as had served with the Forces of the Crown and were otherwise qualified. Nothing that passed in another place seemed to me to point to any other conclusion, but when my right hon. Friend was speaking on the Bill in this House he said:—
My hon. Friend is breaking off in the middle of a sentence. He is reading from the uncorrected copy of the Debates which appeared next day. I do not know for what purpose he is quoting it, but it is useless.
I am taking the report of my right hon. Friend's speech as it appears. It continues:— were not able to come up for examination because they were occupied in the War, they might be selected. Surely some such may appear during the War and the Bill is to have force during the War and for two years after the War. I do not understand the anxiety of my hon. Friend, and I do not understand the statement of the Secretary of State for India. The Clause is extremely clear on the point. It says, the Secretary of State in Council may with the advice and assistance of the Civil Service Commissioners during the War and for a period not exceeding two years afterwards appoint persons otherwise than by competitive examination. Then, in the Debate, my right hon. Friend says it is not intended to make any appointments during the War. There seems to be a great disparity between the objects of the Bill and the expressed intentions of the Secretary of State. I am very anxious myself that such appointments should be made. There seem to be many such candidates now who may come home invalided to some extent, or unable to continue in the fighting line, who may be extremely well suited in every way for such sedentary duties as fall to an Indian Civil servant. There are many such appointments which are all sedentary —secretarial work and many others. There are others in which the year is divided between sedentary and active occupation. For six months, perhaps during the rains, or for a long period, the officer concerned is able to pursue a sedentary occupation. Why should they not be appointed now during the War? I cannot understand it.
Then as I originally drafted this Amendment, feeling sure that both on general and particular grounds my right hon. Friend would not hasten to accept it, I had intended, first of all, to make it applicable only to natives of Europe. But on second thoughts it occurred to me that there are many gallant Indian gentlemen now fighting for us in France who are by educational qualifications, in my opinion, far superior to the class which now invariably carries off all these appointments. I have nothing to say against that class. I did not intend to make any implication against them. My right hon. Friend took me up. I see that he had some reason. My question was rather ambiguously put. I had no intention of expressing any hostility, but, as a matter of fact, from Cochin to Calcutta and from Mandalay to Lahore everyone who now gets into the Indian Civil Service by open competition, and will continue to get in amongst those who are still to be elected by competition, are all persons of one intellectual class. They are writers, in the Indian phrase. They are not fighters. What will be the harm? I think there will be advantage if, under this Bill, a new class of Indian candidate also gets into the Civil Service as well as a new class of European candidate. It seemed to me that in the Debate on the Bill there was the utmost anxiety to minimise it, to make it a small matter, and to point out that it was in no way going to prejudice the Indian candidate. I understand all that. I do not wish to prejudice the interests of the Indian candidate, nor is he likely to be prejudiced under this Bill or under any of the rules made under it. He has the most powerful, vocal, voluble friends in and out of India. But I cannot see what harm there can be in a different class—Sikhs, Gurkhas, whatever you like—getting into the Indian Civil Service under this Bill, and for that reason I altered my Amendment so as to make it applicable not only to natives of Europe, but also to natives of India.
Reading the speech of the Noble Lord who was in charge of the Bill in another place, while he was as anxious as my right hon. Friend to point out that the Bill was in no way going to prejudice the product of our educational system, the young Baboo, or the young scholar or whatever may be the right and respectful phrase to use about him—the undergraduate who now comes in—he did not, as I understand him, indicate that no appointments were to be made during the War. I hope men from the Front will be appointed during the War as and when they become available. We are going here for once in a way to depart from the examination system. That is intensely popular because it is supposed to be of a highly democratic character. I do not think it is. In point of fact, to be able to compete in the Indian Civil Service examination a man must really have been at the public schools and universities and, at any rate, have been, from the point of view of money, upon a somewhat undemocratic or partially plutocratic basis. At any rate, if there is to be a change introduced as there is to be by this Bill, why not have it made effective, and why, above all, protest so much that no appointments are to be made during the War? I am not sure that I should be in order in referring in any way to educational qualifications on my Amendment. Perhaps I may be able to say a word upon that, as I do not intend to move the other Amendment.
The hon. Gentleman seems to be entering into a general review of the Bill, whereas I thought he was going to move an Amendment.
4.0 P.M.
I was dealing with my Amendment, but I thought after a conversation I had with the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chamberlain) before I began, that it would probably be acceptable to him if I brought the other question in. I have, however, sufficiently indicated the purpose of my Amendment, and I will say no more.
I am in the same difficulty, Mr. Whitley, that you are, but perhaps a rather deeper difficulty than that you explained you were in a moment ago. I had a great deal of difficulty in following the bearing of my hon. Friend's Amendment on the propositions in his speech. I gathered that there were two. The first was that no one, without any exception whatever, should be admitted to the Indian Civil Service without examination, unless he has served with the Forces. The second proposition, on which he laid even more stress, was that the appointments of such people should be made during the War.
Where necessary, and where capable men are available.
Where capable men are available. My hon. Friend said that before, but "where necessary" were not the words he introduced into his speech. It may be sufficient for me to say, that I anticipate that no such appointments will be necessary during the War. That view I expressed in my speech on the Second Reading.
In that case, how is it that one-fourth of the usual number of candidates will be sufficient to meet the wastage of the Civil Service during the two, three, or four years which come under this Bill?
Does it not occur to my hon. Friend that if we specifically say we will take not less than one-fourth every year, that that does give a certain recruitment year by year, and if we have that recruitment we may have reasonable expectations that that will enable us to tide over the period of the War, without, during the War, making other additions by nominations, except in regard to one class to whom I will come later. In any case, if my hon. Friend's object is to insist that nominations shall be made during the War, his Amendment is not directly on that point, and does not touch it. It does not in the least affect the power of the Secretary of State to make them during the War, or to abstain from making them during the War. It gives that question the go-by. My reason for desiring not to make them during the War is that until the War is over, until we know how long it has lasted, and all the conditions appertaining to it, I think it would be very difficult for us to frame rules which would be fair to those men who have served in the Forces. There will be differences of ages. There will be differences as to the time the men have served, and that time will depend upon the length of time the War lasts. Therefore, until we know something of these factors, which at present we cannot measure, I do not want to frame the rules under which the selection is to be made, and I do not want to make the selection itself. The selection mentioned in my hon. Friend's speech appears nowhere in his Amendment. What does appear in the Amendment is the condition that nobody shall be appointed who has not served with the Forces. If I accepted that Amendment as it stands it would have the effect of excluding absolutely, except in so far as they find a place in the quarter of the vacancies reserved for competition for England, all the qualifications which have hitherto been required of those passing to the Civil Service examinations in this country.
My hon. Friend says he did not understand from my speech the nature of the Bill. I will try to make it clear. The object and purpose of the Bill is to preserve, as far as it can, in extraordinary conditions of extraordinary times, the ordinary rights of competitors, both of European birth and Indian birth. If you lay down exactly the same rule for the two it would produce very different results. To apply exactly the same rules to the two would not produce that continuation of the ordinary conditions which, in the main, it is the object of the Bill to secure. You may say that nearly all the men of European birth who would naturally in normal years be training themselves to compete in the Civil Service examinations of the next year or two axe now, or will be as soon as they reach the necessary age, in service with the Colours somewhere. The same opportunities are not open to the Indian students, and it would be unfair to them to impose a condition in this Bill which circumstances beyond their control prevent them fulfilling and taking advantage of. There must be a special provision for dealing with natives. If I accepted the Amendment of my hon. Friend, it would not produce the effect on which he laid great stress. It would produce the disparity and inequality, and, I think, unfairness, which I have explained to the Committee. There is one answer which my hon. Friend makes. He says, "It is quite true that if you accept my Amendment in the form in which it stands, it will exclude a class of Indian who has been studying in this country." Then he said, "that is not wholly a disadvantage. I would be glad to see another class of Indian introduced into the Civil Service."
You only exclude them in so far as they are outside the quarter.
Exactly. I do not want to enter into a long discussion with my hon. Friend as to the merits of open competitive examinations, but I am quite clear that a Bill of this kind, which is a war Bill, an emergency Bill, is not a suitable occasion for changing the whole basis of entry into the Civil Service. I invite the Committee to support me in that, and I hope that my hon. Friend, having heard the explanation which I have made, and which I trust will make clearer to him the purpose of the Bill, will not press his Amendment.
I would like to know from the right hon. Gentleman whether he proposes to postpone making the appointments until the end of the War or to the end of the two years following the War, which is shown in the Bill. As regards the appointment of Indians, so far as I have been able to learn from the Indian newspapers, there is no objection taken to that. It appears to me to be a very reasonable way of conceding their claims. I wish we had more time to consider any criticism that may come from India about it; but, so far as I can see, the views of Indians have been fairly considered in the proposals that the Secretary of State has made in this Bill. As regards Indians distinguished in any of the campaigns there are other ways in which the Governor-General in Council can reward them. There are plenty of positions outside the covenanted Civil Service in which he can place them, for example, as is done now in native States. I think that anyone who has distinguished himself in the field might very well be taken notice of by the Governor-General in Council in that way. I do not share the views of my hon. Friend (Sir J. D. Rees) as regards the insufficiency of the competitive examination system to provide suitable officers among the Indian educated classes for the Civil Service. I would not like to propose any change in the present system until it had received the full consideration of the Government of India and of the local Governments. I feel entirely with my right hon. Friend that this is not the time in which we can revise the system of competitive examinations. This, as I said in the Debate on the Second Reading, is one of those temporary and emergency measures which have been forced upon us by the violation of Belgium, and all that has followed upon that event.
As regards the appointment of Europeans during the interval, I can see no great reason to object to that, if occasion may show that it is necessary. There may be officers who comply with conditions put forth in this Bill, who are versed in the languages of India, and who would be very much the same sort of men as the Governor-General in Council selects for a good many Civil appointments out of the Indian Army. I can see no objection in principle to the Secretary of State making a choice of the men who are to be favoured by this particular Bill, if he finds it necessary to do that. There is this point to be considered: If offices in the Civil Service are not filled up it might be said, "Here are a number of places reserved by Act of Parliament to the Civil Service. We have not enough of them here, therefore we will seek any other persons who happen to be about." That would be bringing in the patronage of the Indian authorities in a way that I think would be objected to, if it were brought to the notice of Parliament, and it ought not to be allowed, I submit this possibility to the judgment of the Secretary of State. I would, however, like to know whether it is to be at the end of the War or only two years afterwards that he intends to begin to make his appointments. There may be a large number of men who, during the period of the War and two years after- wards, may be passing the age which the Secretary of State considers to be the maximum that he ought to allow. Unless there is a provision for allowing some appointments to be made in that period, a number of men may be done out of their chance merely because they continue longer in the War and they begin to exceed the maximum age. There are a great many things of this sort that crop up if one studiously contemplates the Bill. I have read through the Bill with a genuine desire to make what Amendments I can. I would have liked to have made it clear as to who the Committee shall be, and I would have liked to have inserted something like the statement my right hon. Friend has made as regards the classes he intends to benefit by appointments under the Bill. Especially, if possible, I would have modified the words "necessary educational qualifications." They seem to me to be very vague, and to leave a great deal to the opinion of those highly-qualified persons, the Civil Service Commissioners, as to what constitutes a necessary educational qualification. I should have liked to have had a longer discussion so that the matter might be more fully considered. Indeed, I myself have not had ingenuity enough to bring forward anything, but so long as the Civil Service Commission will see that the high scholarly attainment shall be secured, which has been the tradition of the Government and the Civil Service of India for a very long time—for at least a hundred years—and so long as the Committee exercises its functions without prejudice—I do not say without partiality, because I do not expect partiality, but I do fear that they may be prejudiced—I think that we shall get a very reasonable class of public servant, many of them with military qualifications that the present Civil servants in India do not possess. Therefore, having said this, I much regret that I have no more to say.
I am glad that my right hon. Friend (the Secretary of State for India) has emphasised the fact, which he did last Thursday on the occasion of the Second Reading, that this is an emergency measure —a War Bill which is not intended in any way to interfere with the general methods of making appointments to the Indian Civil Service, and the system of competitive examination. When I spoke on Thursday last I was very much disposed to accept such an Amendment as that which was moved by my hon. Friend (Sir J. D. Rees), because it seemed to me that it would be very advisable, if possible, to indicate in the Bill itself the appointments to be made in these circumstances were of an exceptional character, and would be restricted to those who had served with the Forces of the Crown. I understand that that is definitely the intention of the Secretary of State for India, and, in some conversaion which I had with him privately, I have been able to recognise and realise the difficulties which he would experience in making these appointments if the words proposed to be inserted by my hon. Friend were found in the Bill. Of course I fully recognise, as everyone must do, that an absolute assurance, even by the Secretary of State for India, has not quite the same force as a Clause in an Act of Parliament. At the same time, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, and to the fact that it was absolutely necessary to bring in some measure of this kind in order to enable those young men who had been studying and had joined the Forces of the Crown to be in the same position as other students who had continued their studies, so that they should not suffer any disappointment, I am perfectly prepared to accept the assurance of the Secretary of State for India, and I only wish to say that in the circumstances I trust that my hon. Friend will withdraw his Amendment.
I desire to ask a question with respect to the examination which was recently held for the purpose of filling appointments in the Indian Civil Service. It has been the custom, and this custom was adopted this year, to make a statement that probably so many candidates would be appointed. Formerly, I think, forty-eight was the number. This year, I believe, it was stated that twelve would be selected and given appointments. This year there were thirty-nine candidates who obtained the maximum number of marks to qualify for appointments. That number, I think, may be taken as proving that the candidates entering this year were equal in quality educationally to the candidates who entered in the previous years. If thirty-nine men qualified this year, and twelve have already been appointed, why is it necessary to go outside the list of those who have acquitted themselves creditably in the examination and are waiting for appointments? Why is it necessary to take powers in this Bill to appoint outsiders who have not qualified educationally? Possibly there may be among those to whom I have referred some who upon consideration will be found eligible for appointment, and might get that which they hoped to do after their course of study and the examination at which they obtained the necessary standard of marks.
The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken spoke of the candidates who were not appointed as having attained the "maximum" number of marks. What he meant was the minimum number necessary for appointment among the candidates who have not got appointments. It is quite true that there were several other candidates who did not attain that minimum, but the competition was not what it would have been in normal years. The whole purpose of introducing this process of selection is to secure in the first place for India the services of the men whose services it would have commanded through examination in normal years, and, in the second place, to secure for the men who in normal years would have sat for examination, and are prevented from doing so by their extreme public spirit, the right of being considered for the Indian Civil Service, which they would not have if we continued to pursue the ordinary methods of examination. That does not mean that those who have qualified educationally, but were not within the first twelve, and therefore were not appointed, have no chance under this Bill. If they join the Colours they will, in course of time, acquire the qualification of military service which is necessary under this Bill, and though it is absolutely impossible for me or anyone to promise to any individual at this moment that he will be selected, at any rate we know that they have the necessary educational qualifications. By service with the Colours they will have obtained the necessary military qualifications, and their names will go before the Selection Committee, and it will then merely be a question of whether, among those who are qualified, they are considered to be the best qualified.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what he means by "minimum educational qualification"? I never heard of it, and I have had to do with the examinations for the Indian Civil Service for the last thirty years.
My hon. Friend, with his long experience, looks for an accuracy of language which I am afraid I was not using. What I meant was that these persons gained such a number of marks as, on the average of years, would probably cause them to be included within the successful list. My language was quite inaccurate, but perhaps I was dealing too much as if I was answering only the hon. Member who put the question to me, and who, I think, was using the words in the same sense as I was using them. The hon. Member for Roxburghshire (Sir J. Jardine) asked whether I contemplated nominations at the close of the War, or only at the close of two years after the War, to which the Bill extends? I contemplate the close of the War. I have not precluded the Secretary of State from making them during the War should they be necessary. I hope that they will not be necessary, because, taking the illustration given by the hon. Member, it is not until you know how long the War will last that you know to what extent you must extend the limits of going without what, in ordinary circumstances, would be regarded as fixed principles which should govern your choice. But when the War comes to an end—I do not want to make nominations beforehand because if I did I must necessarily make them from a restricted field—I hope that they will be made as soon as possible after the moment arrives when we get a wide field of choice and all the possible candidates.
It is not my habit to oppose the Secretary of State for India, and I am not going to begin with my right hon. Friend. But I do not understand why he intends to appoint these men only after the War. It has been actuarially calculated that the Indian Civil Service requires an annual recruitment of fifty, or sixty, or seventy. How, then, does my right hon. Friend think that a recruitment of one-fourth that number will be sufficient. I have no explanation. If my right hon. Friend has no more to say upon it it will only add one to the many unsolved problems which Members of this House have to face. I do not recognise this Bill as an emergency Bill in the same sense as that in which we talk of an emergency Bill in this country. In India there are no two parties ready for real or factitious reasons to fly at each others throats. There is no party truce. I still remain strongly unconvinced that this Bill could not be made the occasion of a new departure. My right hon. Friend has pointed out that under my proposal the class of Indian gentleman, natives of India who compete, would not have the opportunity of competing for the service which natives of Europe have. So far from wishing to circumscribe them, I wish that they had further opportunities, such as were initiated by Lord Curzon, a Viceroy whose courage equals his capacity. I do not wish to reargue the case with my right hon. Friend. I will accept what he has said, believing, as I have always said, that he is the repository in his own person, with his counsellors, of greater wisdom than I can bring to bear on this question. I therefore ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
There are two phrases in the Clause as to which I think it of real importance that they should be notified to the Committee, because they are phrases which occur, or are likely to occur, in other legislation of this class. In the ninth line there is the phrase "continuance of the present War, and for a period not exceeding two years thereafter." I object very much on principle to our legislating as we are doing here entirely in the dark. Nobody knows what is the meaning of the phrase "continuance of the War." The Attorney-General the other day was kind enough to give me a reply to a question in which I asked him whether he could define the phrase "continuance of the War," and he quite candidly admitted that he was unable to do so and that it would be necessary, in future legislation, to define this phrase. It is quite obvious, if we come to think of it, that when we are making a definition of the words "the continuance of the War" it may be a definition carrying it, in one way or another, over a period of at least a number of months. Is it that the War is to be considered at an end when an armistice is declared to arrange terms of peace, or is it to be final after the ratification of the terms of peace which grow out of the armistice? It is perfectly obvious that within these two limits at least many months may be comprised, and if, taking a further limit in this case, you add two years upon that, it is quite conceivable that after the actual cessation of hostilities we may be legislating here for something like three or four years at least.
I am glad to see the Solicitor-General on the Treasury Bench, and I am quite Sure, being the reasonable man that I know he is, he will see that there is a good deal of point in what I am saying. Let me ask him, let me ask the Government, to introduce legislation before long which will decide at any rate approximately the meaning of this phrase "continuance of the War." There is another phrase in this Clause to which I also object—I mean the phrase, "in accordance with regulations and rules." I believe that when we pass legislation in this House giving large powers to any Department, or to the Government, and those powers are to be exercised as to regulations or rules that have subsequently to be made, we ought to ask, as a general principle, this House ought to demand that in one form or another these rules and regulations should be laid before us for consideration. This has been done on certain occasions in the past, but since the War began there has been, so far as I know, hardly any demand that it should be done now. Let me point to the effect of these regulations. Under the Defence of the Realm Acts we find that they have gone a great deal further than many of us ever expected, and certainly my feeling is very far from assenting to being tried or imprisoned under the Defence of the Realm Acts compared with the feeling I had when I helped to pass those Acts. This is a serious matter, but I must say that the Secretary of State for India will realise that, as a good Member of the House of Commons, I have the right, and all Members have the same right, to demand as a general principle that no rules or regulations of a startling nature or of a far-reaching character should be made, or such as the House would not have consented to at the time the legislation was passed. Those are the only two points I have to make, and they have a more than passing importance, because they refer in one way or another to other and similar legislation which we may expect to be brought in. I hope these points will have due consideration.
The hon. Member asks for a definition of the phrase "continuance of the War," a phrase which has been inserted in a great many Acts of Parliament in the last few months. This Bill is not the place in which to insert a definition of the phrase; it should find a place in a Bill which has regard to the circumstances of all the Statutes in which that phrase occurs. I do not think you can very well define the words in the present state of our knowledge, and this House must be content to wait until facts are further developed, and until its knowledge is developed by them. The other point raised by the hon. Gentleman, as a good Member of the House of Commons—I hope we are all good Members of the House of Commons—was that rules and regulations such as may be made under this Bill should be laid before Parliament. The rules and regulations of course will be laid under the terms of this Clause, but I understand him to mean that they should be laid before Parliament while the Clause is still under discussion. I venture to say that, as a good Member of the House of Commons, the hon. Gentleman wants us to turn out a good and workmanlike measure, and I think—if he had listened to some of the earlier discussions—I could convince him that the conditions at the present time are too uncertain for us to foresee the exact circumstances with which we may have to deal, or to enable us usefully at the present time to frame rules and regulations which are likely to be much more workable and just if we defer their consideration until we come nearer the time that they will have to be made.
May I add another word upon this phrase "continuance of the War"? I must say that I am extremely surprised at the answer given by the Secretary of State that, though he sees this phrase in the Bill, it is quite beyond his powers to define it. I do not think we should put into a Bill a phrase which we cannot define. [An HON. MEMBER: "It has been put in many other Bills."] I know it has, but I am going to make the suggestion that in future, if measures like this have to be introduced, and you have to put in such a phrase as "continuance of the War," and are quite unable to define that phrase, you ought to introduce a Bill to limit the period, say, for a year or for two years, and make it capable of being renewed under the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. I think that would be much more reasonable, for then at any rate we should always know that such legislation would come to an end, in any event, unless Parliament otherwise thought fit, at the close of a certain period. I hope this point will not escape attention and be put off by mere arguments to the effect that nobody cares, at present at any rate, to define what the phrase "continuance of the War" means.
I think it is quite reasonable that the Government should act in this way, and, in regard to the phrase "continuance of the War," it was introduced into legislation by the general wish of the House of Commons many times. As to bringing these matters under the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, I would point out that it would involve our dealing with details at a late hour of the night, and this phrase "continuance of the War" could not properly come under the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. I think the Secretary for India is quite right. Surely we do not want to have the legal definition introduced into a Bill dealing with the Dominion of India of a phrase which we find put into English Bills. The phrase "continuance of the War" we take to mean while we are at war, a War that is being waged by His Majesty's Government, and the mere fact that the country might be making peace would not mean that this legislation comes to an end. I am obliged to the Government for inserting this phrase in so many Bills.
Question, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
I have an Amendment down which I do not mean to move.
The Clause has already been passed.
I half rose, Sir; I put myself forward, and I submit that I am entitled to speak on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
The hon. Member will have an opportunity on the Third Reading to make his remarks. I am sorry if I misunderstood when the hon. Gentleman half rose. I thought it was to address a private question across the Table.
It was merely owing to my diffidence that I half rose. I now beg, Sir, to rise on a point of Order.
I cannot go back on my decision. The Committee has passed the Clause.
I submit to you, Sir—
The hon. Member is not entitled to argue with the Chair.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without Amendment.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—[ Mr. Chamberlain. ]
I really have no intention of taking up more than one or two minutes of the time of the Committee. I had an Amendment which I did not intend to move, but I thought I might be allowed to refer to it. I want to ask my right hon. Friend, when he appoints a Committee for the purpose of advising him as to selection, that he will take more into account than has ever yet been taken into account the supreme importance of a knowledge of the languages of India and also of Russia, which will in future be of greater importance for the Indian Civil Service than ever before. Will my right hon. Friend now explain why it is, when the rules and regulations are to be laid before the House—a matter which Lord Islington did not explain—it is not competent to any hon. Member to move an Address to the Crown? That is the very last thing in the world I want to do, but I do not understand why these rules are on a different footing from other rules—for instance, those under the Insurance Act. I am not asking because I want to move an Address, and I hope that nobody will ever move an Address to the Crown in a matter connected with India; but I do not understand why these rules are on a totally different footing from other rules and regulations. Lord Islington in his speech threw no light on that matter. I hope my right hon. Friend will explain it.
I should like to add my voice to that of the hon. Member for Nottingham as regards attention being given to proof of passing in Indian languages, not only because of the great value of those languages in India, but, because in the opinion of many British officers, knowledge of those languages ought to be better than it is on the average. Under the present system, at the end of the year of probation in this country the candidates have to pass in a number of subjects, including the laws, the history, and the languages of India. So far as can be, under the new system we ought to strive that knowledge of the languages of India, which is so very useful a means of understanding life of the country. I gather from what my right hon. Friend said on the Second Reading that he was prepared to recommend, in the making of the rules, that the passing of an examination in Indian languages should carry some weight. I hope he will agree to that. As regards Russian, I have nothing particular to say, except that already in the borough of Elgin the town council authorities are making arrangements for the study of Russian, as preparation for business careers after the War.
As I explained to the House the other day, there are two stages. The first is that the Secretary of State, on the advice of the Civil Service Commissioners, satisfies himself that the candidates are fit and have a minimum standard of educational attainments. Then the candidates will go before a Selection Committee, who will choose from among them the most qualified. I cannot say now how a body of men yet to be chosen will exactly interpret their duties, but I think they must take into account all the qualifications which a candidate possesses. At the same time I do not think it ought necessarily to be said that a man must be capable because he speaks Russian or because he speaks some Indian languages. It is the very essence of this case that those who would have been studying those languages in order to qualify are now fighting in the trenches instead.
It may add to the weight.
All I can say is that it will be my endeavour that the Selection Committee shall take into account all the qualifications which candidates possess. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) asked why the rules which are to be laid before Parliament are not subject to Address in either House of Parliament. He anxiously explained, at the same time, that he would be the last person to desire to see any Address moved in either House. The reason is that this Bill providing for the Secretary of State in Council making certain rules and regulations as regards new conditions of examination follows exactly the precedent of the Bill of 1858, which provided for the Secretary of State in Council making rules which have governed the existing Civil Service examinations. If he asks me why Parliament did not provide for an Address in both Houses I can only say that I was not actually a member at that time.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Street Collections (Regulation—Scotland) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. MACLEAN, Deputy-Chairman, in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Regulation of Street Collections.)
(1) The magistrates of any burgh in Scotland may make regulations with respect to the places where and the conditions under which persons may be permitted in any street or public place within the burgh to collect money or sell articles for the benefit of charitable or other purposes, and any person who shall act in contravention of any such regulation shall be guilty of an offence against this Act, and on conviction in any Court of Summary Jurisdiction having jurisdiction within the burgh shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding forty shillings.
(2) Regulations made under this Act shall not apply to the selling of articles in any street or public place when the articles are sold in the ordinary course of trade and for the purpose of earning a livelihood.
(3) Regulations made under this Act shall not come into operation until they have been confirmed by the Secretary for Scotland and published for such time and in such manner as the Secretary for Scotland may direct.
I have an Amendment to propose on this Clause, in Sub-section (1), after the word "the" ["the magistrates"], to insert the word "elected."
I desire some information from the Secretary for Scotland as regards this Bill. I would like to know whether or not it is meant that this Bill should arm justices of the peace or elected magistrates in Scotland with the powers it confers. If it is intended to confer those powers on elected persons there is not very much objection, but if it is intended to give the powers to non-elected persons over whom the people have no jurisdiction, then it seems to me to be a very important matter. This Bill does make a very important alteration on the practice in Scotland. It may be necessary to do so, having regard to our experience during the War, though I do not know. There have been certain abuses in London with regard to street collections taken by people over whom nobody has any jurisdiction, and it may be that there have been abuses also in Scotland. If so, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I, for my part, would not stand in the way if this Bill is intended only to prevent those abuses. We ought, however, to have some assurance that the Bill is only intended to apply to a temporary emergency, and not to interfere with well-established rights of people in Scotland. I see nothing in the Bill to indicate that it is only of a temporary character. It may be intended to prevent abuses during the War, but there is nothing in the Bill which would prevent it giving rise to other abuses. It is customary for certain organisations with which I am connected to hold meetings and make collections in the streets, and I do not see why they should not continue that practice after the War is over, and I want to safeguard their rights even during the War. Is it intended that a person shall have to apply every time a meeting is to be held in some particular place in the street, and that that person should get special leave for making a collection at the meeting, or will the Secretary for Scotland sanction certain Regulations which shall lay down that meetings can only be held at certain places in the streets of Glasgow, and that those having once been passed, then on any subsequent date a meeting may be held in that particular place and a collection made there? In that event the matter would not be so serious.
The hon. Member has stated that he desires to move an Amendment to insert the word "elected" before the word "magistrates." I do not know whether he is now addressing his remarks to the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," or to his proposed Amendment.
I thought it would save time if I explained my position on this Amendment and enable the Secretary for Scotland to reply and reassure us on the point I am raising.
I did not know whether the hon. Member intended to conclude by moving his Amendment. If not, I ought to put the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I am in your hands. All I want is a statement by the Secretary for Scotland.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I should like to ask the Secretary for Scotland to reassure us on the points I have mentioned. Will the magistrates under the terms of the Bill mean only the elected persons, and can the right hon. Gentleman hold out any hope that this Bill will only apply for the period of the War? Will it be necessary to apply to the magistrates on the occasion of any meeting being held, or will the Regulations cover the conditions under which the meetings shall be held?
5.0 P.M.
I think when we get the points referred to cleared up there will be no further trouble on the Bill. I agree entirely that there is need for legislation in this matter, and, in fact, I think that the danger of exploiting war charities has been shown to be in certain directions a very real danger, and that mixed up with much genuine and good work there is an element that has to be watched and checked. I think even more than the checking of street collections is necessary, because a great deal of what I refer to arises in other ways, such as advertisements in newspapers and circulars which are not entirely above-board. The worst of it is that all that is mixed up with a great deal of genuine work which is good and rights and it also plays upon the very best and most generous emotions Appeals of the kind are very skilfully drawn. I think, therefore, that more than the regulation of street collections and the selling of flags is necessary if the matter is to be held really in check. What I am anxious about is that the magistrates should be impressed, and that some method should be found of impressing them, with the real purpose and scope of this measure. It ought not to become a kind of general measure in the hands of magistrates for upsetting arrangements which have gone on for a very long time, and for setting aside bylaws long established. There are in all the large towns meetings of an educational character and of a religious character and of a political character where collections are taken and where literature is very often sold. This Bill gives indiscriminate power to magistrates both to prohibit or interfere with the taking of collections in the open air, and if they care also to prohibit the sale of all literature at open-air meetings. I think those are much wider powers than the Secretary for Scotland really wants. I do not think that is his intention, and, in fact, I am quite sure it is not. The Bill is designed, I think, to prevent and eliminate the element of fraud entering into various charitable organisations. There is no comparison between meetings of the character referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes) and general organised collections in the streets where you have a procession and where people are impressed into contributing in a general way. With regard to the meetings they are held in the same place usually, and those go who desire and those who do not stay away, while the collection is confined to a group of sympathisers who attend from week to week. So that what I want to be sure about is that the purpose of the Bill will be made quite clear to those who are going to be responsible for its administration, and that it shall not be used by magistrates for the purpose of repressing religious or political views to which they might object. If that is made quite clear I shall be satisfied to see the Bill go through, because I believe that its real purpose is a good and necessary one. I am entirely in sympathy with a measure that will try to remove the element of good charity from any suspicion of fraud.
If this had been an English Bill I think I should have put down an Amendment of the kind I indicated on the Second Reading. As it is a Scottish Bill I may, perhaps, ask why certain words have not been introduced. The Bill just passed by the House contained the words, "During the continuance of the present War" Those words do not appear in this Bill, and there is nothing to indicate that it is of a temporary nature. I suppose my right hon. Friend has some consideration in his mind in omitting those words. If he can satisfy me on that point I shall not move any Amendment.
It seems to me that this Bill gives to the magistrates of Scottish burghs powers which they are quite competent to exercise. We should not expect them to put the Act into operation without good reason. Therefore I would not insist on the insertion of a time limit. I would, however, like to see, unless there is any General Clauses Act which makes it unnecessary, a power given to the magistrates to revoke the regulations when they choose. I think they can well be entrusted with that power equally with the power to make the regulations.
This is another instance of legislation by regulation. I object to that class of legislation, and I especially object to regulations made by magistrates. I am extremely glad that these regulations will have to be overhauled by the Secretary for Scotland.
made an observation which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
If I am showing my ignorance, perhaps somebody else will presently show their knowledge. Magistrates are no better and no worse than other people. No regulations made by any set of men, whether magistrates or not, are likely to have any great amount of wisdom or sense unless they are strictly supervised, and are open to criticism and public cognisance before they are made operative. I hope the present Secretary for Scotland and his successors—I hope it will be a long time before my right hon. Friend has a successor—will always most carefully look into any Regulations that are made, and consult the public and any authorities who can give them advice before they approve of those Regulations. My hon. Friend (Mr. Booth) pointed out that this is not emergency legislation at all. It is permanent legislation. If a Bill is a good thing we ought to have it whether the War is on or not. If it is so obviously good that no one strongly opposes it, and the great majority are in favour of it, there is no reason whatever why such a Bill should not pass into law, whether the War is on or not. Therefore, I am glad to see some legislation being passed which is not emergency legislation. The next Bill is of the same class. We have previously passed important legislation for India. The Government of India Bill contained about 200 Clauses.
Codifying.
Certainly; but it made a great deal of difference in the law. My point is that since the War began we have passed Bills which are not emergency legislation; we are doing so now, and we shall be called upon to do so in the future. There is no reason why we should not continue to go on passing legislation which is not emergency legislation, so long as it is not violently opposed, and there is an overwhelming majority in its favour.
I think the Committee would have been saved the earlier part of my hon. Friend's speech had he known what the magistrates of Scottish burghs are. He is evidently of opinion that the magistrates of burghs in Scotland are the same as magistrates of boroughs in England. For his edification and the information of the Committee I may state that the magistrates of Scottish burghs are in every case elected by the town council of the burgh.
I knew that.
Had my hon. Friend given due weight to that consideration he would not have made upon an admirable body of men the reflection contained in his speech. The only point upon which any real criticism of the Bill can arise is as to the possibility of the Regulations being used unfairly towards religious or political associations which are in the habit of holding outdoor meetings and taking collections at those meetings. It must be remembered that at the present time meetings can be held by such associations only with the permission of the magistrates in these burghs, who would not as a rule refuse that permission, as, if they did so, they would obviously lay themselves open to the imputation of preventing free speech. But there is a suspicion in some quarters that magistrates, if endowed with these new powers, might, by refusing permission to take a collection—by a side wind, as it were—prevent the holding of a meeting at all. There is a certain danger that that might take place. As the Bill is framed, Regulations have to be submitted for approval to the Scottish Office, and I am sure that any suspicion which may be entertained would be laid at rest if we had an undertaking from the Scottish Secretary that he would prevent any such Regulations being used for the purpose I have indicated. If the Scottish Office make clear to the burgh magistrates throughout Scotland the objects for which these Regulations are to be framed, and take measures in approving such Regulations that they cannot be used for other purposes, I think everybody will be satisfied that no abuse can arise under the Bill which, I hope, will shortly be passed.
I can give the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division the assurance he desires as regards the magistrates. The magistrates are the Lord Provost or Provost and the Bailies, who are all elected persons, and therefore satisfy the desire of my hon. Friend. As to the duration of the Bill, there are two or three strong considerations why this Bill should not be merely an emergency measure. One is that the abuses which arise do not arise only in time of war. They arise at any time a street collection takes place. It is perfectly true that we have a larger number of street collections in time of war, and that consequently abuses are more frequent; but the abuses exist in times of peace, and it is necessary to have this control. A second consideration is that we are only asking for Scotland a power which the Home Secretary already has in dealing with the area under his control, which power he has exercised to the public advantage, and with the approval of the public, in the case of London. I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that if the greatest city in the Empire has this power, the second greatest city, which is Glasgow, should have a similar power. It is as much wanted in Glasgow as in London. There is a third consideration. As a matter of fact the magistrates in Glasgow have been controlling these street collections under their general powers, but when the matter was brought to my notice I thought it was desirable to regularise the position and to make it perfectly clear that they have authority to deal with the matter.
Perhaps I might take this opportunity of clearing away a misconception which has arisen, not in the House, but outside. Some people have supposed, on what ground I cannot understand, that the magistrates might make Regulations that they would audit the accounts of the societies or organisations which benefited by the street collections. Nobody was ever mad enough to propose anything of the sort. If the street collection was on behalf of the Red Cross Society, no Glasgow magistrate would want to audit the accounts of the Red Cross Society. If it was on behalf of the Salvation Army, or some similar organisation, nobody would ever think of auditing their accounts. The audit which the magistrates have in mind is merely an audit for the purpose of seeing that the money collected from the public reaches the society in whose name it was collected, and that a great part of it does not go into the pockets of private persons for the purpose of private gain. That is the only object. With that explanation, I hope my hon. Friends will agree it is desirable to give this as a permanent power. With regard to the suggestion that there ought to be power to vary or revoke the Regulations, it is not necessary to express that in the Bill, because under the Interpretation Act, 1889, the power to make Regulations, unless it is otherwise provided, includes the power to amend or revoke them.
I think the really important point raised in the Debate is as to how open-air meetings at which collections are sometimes taken are affected by the Bill. As a matter of fact open-air meetings are much more subject to regulation than street collections at the present time, because, in order to prevent obstruction in the streets, authority has to be obtained from the police before an open-air meeting can be properly held. There is no intention—I think I can give the assurance on this point desired by my hon. Friends—of passing any Regulations—they will have to be passed by myself or my successors—which will interfere with free speech or put any kind of restriction on free speech or prevent religious, political, or charitable objects from being advocated in the streets. They will remain as they are at present. But it is desirable that we should have power to control those itinerant collections which raise very large sums of money—money which is taken from the public, who are very generous at the present time, and who give large sums. Some authority on their behalf should have power to see that that money is not diverted from the object for which it was collected to private purposes, and that no abuses spring up in connection with procedure, which, if not regulated, is liable to very considerable abuse.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without Amendment.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
Might I suggest to the Secretary for Scotland that, after all, no harm would be done by inserting the word I suggested in the Bill? The hon. Member for Lanark shire pointed out that the magistrates in burghs are elected. That is perfectly true. But at some future time it might be the intention of the Government or someone else to apply this Bill to the counties. In the counties there are quite a number of people who are magistrates who have not been elected. Therefore I think it would strengthen the Bill, from our point of view at all events, if the word "elected" were put in. It would emphasise that the power to be given by this Bill is to be given only to people who are elected and over whom the people have some jurisdiction. Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman to put in that word? It is not altogether surplusage, and I think it is a real Amendment.
I hope my hon. Friend will not press his suggestion. The point is covered in the Bill. We have passed the stage at which we could put the word in the Bill. As to the difficulty arising if the Bill were extended to the counties, it is perfectly obvious that if we did so extend the Bill we should require further legislation, for it would not be suitable at all to use the phrase "magistrates" in that case. We have very carefully considered the Bill. So far as my information goes, it is not thought that the addition suggested by the hon. Member is at all necessary. There has been no desire expressed on the part of the authorities in the counties to have the Bill extended to the counties. If and when the question did arise, the question of the authority to make the Regulations would have to be carefully considered. This Bill will not prejudice the consideration of that suggestion in the slightest degree.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Indictments Bill— [Lords]
Order for second reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
It may be well if I state very shortly the nature and object of this Bill, which is to shorten and simplify the forms of indictment, and for two reasons. One is that we desire that the exact nature of the offence with which a man is charged should be stated plainly. The second reason for the Bill is to save the very large expense—a material consideration at the present time —which is now incurred in drawing up indictments. I think the House knows that indictments are in a form which is none the worse for being old, but they are very long, and often very involved. They contain a number of statements which are historical rather than useful, and they negative propositions which are really negatived by the charge itself. The result is that they cover a great deal of parchment, and cost a great deal of money. Our object is to obviate that state of things, and make them both shorter and less costly. I asked that a good example should be given to me of a long indictment drawn up in the present form. I have such an indictment here [ holding up a bulky document tied with red tape. ] The House will see that it is all parchment, and that it is all one piece of parchment. I do not think I could unroll it here, because if I did so, it would certainly extend into the Lobby. I had it opened out in my room at the Courts, and it went twice round the room.
This measure has been prepared very carefully. It was submitted first to a Committee, over which Mr. Justice Avory presided. As the House knows, he has very great experience in criminal matters. The Committee included representatives of the Bar, and of all authorities which deal with criminal prosecutions. The Bill which that Committee prepared was introduced in another place, and it was committed to a Joint Committee, on which both Houses of Parliament were represented—the Committee which usually deals with codifying and consolidating Bills. That Committee went very carefully into the matter, amended the Bill, and approved it, and it is now before this House. The method of procedure is this—we are dealing with procedure only—we proceed by Rule of Court. The original rules are in the Bill, so that they are before the House for consideration. They can be amended, or altered, by the Rule Committee which is nominated under the Bill. It will be a very strong Committee, and will consist of the Lord Chief Justice, a Judge of the High Court, a Chairman of Quarter Sessions, a Recorder, a Clerk of Assize, a Clerk of the Peace, and another person having experience in criminal procedure. Any amendments that that Committee may make in the rules will be laid before both Houses of Parliament, and objection can be taken to them. I will only read one passage— or perhaps two—of the original rules, because they contain the pith of the change which is proposed. The First Schedule, paragraph 4 (3), says:—
"The statement of offence shall describe the offence in ordinary language, avoiding as far as possible the use of technical terms, and without necessarily stating all the essential elements of the offence, and if the offence charged is one created by Statute shall contain a reference to the Section of the Statute creating the offence."
Then particulars are to be given, and certain forms are given in a Schedule as in the Scottish Act of 1887, where very similar forms are provided. There is another rule which, I think, is quite a new rule, in the First Schedule, paragraph 12 (1), which provides:—
"It shall be the duty of the Clerk of Assize, after a true bill has been found on any indictment, to supply to the accused person, on request, a copy of the indictment free of charge."
That, shortly, is the effect of the Bill. There are some minor amendments of the law, but none, I think, which are not, on the whole, in favour of the accused.
It may be said, "Why introduce the Bill at this time; it is not in the ordinary sense a war emergency measure?" There are two reasons for the course suggested, which may be accepted as sufficient. The one is that it is a pity to throw away the time which has been expended on this Bill. It has been carefully considered, and, provided it is non-controversial, as I believe it to be, I hope the House will make an exception in its favour. The second reason is that this Bill will effect a very considerable economy of public money. The cost of drawing indictments—these long indictments—to-day falls upon either Imperial or local funds. That cost is considerable, and will be, I am told, very considerably reduced if this Bill is passed; and the fact that those who will lose by the Bill are mainly members of the legal profession is one which, I think, will be patiently borne by this House. I do not ask the House to go beyond the Second Reading to-day, but to commit it to a Committee of the Whole House. It will not require very long consideration in Committee, as it has been considered twice over by experts; but any Member of the House who feels an interest in the matter will no doubt put down Amendments, which will be carefully considered. I beg to move.
This is a useful Bill, and that, I suppose, is the reason it does not apply to Scotland or Ireland. As a rule, the draftsmen who draw up these Bills never think of taking the trouble to find out what is the law in the adjoining Kingdoms, so as to give the people in those Kingdoms the benefit of any proposed amendment. For my part, I think that this is not the time to bring in a Bill of this kind, though I will not oppose it; but I will state my reasons for my opinion. Practically, this is a Bill which well deserves the attention of the entire legal profession, as well as Members of this House. So far as I know, the mind of the country is so intently concerned with the War that nobody pays any attention whatever to measures of this kind. I spoke the other day to a chairman of Quarter Sessions. Although this Bill has been introduced three or four months, he did not even know of its existence, or of the proposed change. This Bill, I think, should not apply to conspiracies. I have looked through the forms which are in the Bill, but I cannot find any form of indictment to deal with conspiracies. Now, conspiracy is a matter in which the working classes have a particular interest, and a recent decision in the House of Lords shows that legislation in regard to trade unions is not impregnable. I think that is a particular class of offence which should be omitted from the Bill. I also find no example of treason, or treason felony. Whether it is intended that those offences should be dealt with under the Bill I do not know.
There is another matter to which I would like to refer. The Bill enables the prosecution to join in one count a misdemeanour and a felony, giving a prisoner the right of the larger challenge in the case of felony. Instead of doing that, why not abolish the distinction between misdemeanour and felony altogether? If our minds are so free in this War to devote attention to these criminal matters, what is the necessity for keeping that up? I know of none. In the mind hitherto of lawyers it was repugnant that you should join felony and misdemeanour together. There were supposed to be some high reasons for it. You do it in this Bill, instead of abolishing the distinction. Then I want to say a word with regard to this rule-making power. We should give no rule-making power. We are making a very large change in the law, and I think that change on the whole is useful. Therefore, as I say, I am not going to oppose it. But I am opposed to allowing in criminal matters rules to be made in the future without the consent of Parliament, though I will show that the consent of Parliament is really impossible. We are, forsooth, to give these great powers to the Lord Chief Justice, a Judge of the High Court, a Chairman of the Quarter Sessions, a Recorder, a Clerk of Assize, a Clerk of the Peace, and another person having experience in criminal procedure. We are to delegate the whole authority of Parliament to what I respectfully call a jumble of persons of this class. Parliament has been made sufficient of a doormat since this War began without our handing over the powers—the cherished powers—that we have maintained in the past concerning the liberty of the people, to clerks of the peace, clerks of Petty Sessions, or whatever they may be—I have forgotten the Litany—Clerks of Assize, and persons experienced in criminal procedure. The Government in this Bill will get a very vast, and, on the whole, a salutary change, but certainly it is not too much to ask of the Government, if they want any further change, to come back to Parliament, which is quite willing, so far as I can see, to do whatever the Government want it to do.
I want to know why this Bill is not to apply to Ireland, in so far as it is a good Bill. Is there any reason, seeing that up to the present our criminal jurisprudence since the reign of James the First has gone step by step with yours, why you should set up this vast change in England, and deprive Ireland of the benefit of it? Our economies, after all, are something. We are told that we expend too much money on various matters, but it is not on the question of economy that I have risen, because the question of economy would not, I think, in Ireland be a very great one; but public convenience is. We have no more desire that sheep-stealers should escape from justice than you have; we have no more desire that undischarged bankrupts should rob their creditors than you have, and when you provide for the case of the undischarged bankrupt, the sheep-stealer, and so on, why does not your draftsman take the trouble to find out what the Irish law is, and apply it accordingly? With this reservation, I give my support to the Bill, but, at the same time, I do maintain that it is not a Bill for this time of day. I congratulate the right hon. and learned Gentleman on his very clear presentation of the Bill, and upon the high honour that has been done him, which, I think, has given general satisfaction in all quarters of the House. I hope he will not take my criticism as personal to himself, because he knows I offered some criticism of the Bill at its first stage. I think the Bill should be delayed until a chance is given for its application to Ireland, and that we should not rush it through this House at the present time.
I am afraid I am not competent to carry on the legal argument as to the effect of this Bill, but I should very much like to congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on the first results of his labour since he joined the Government. He, I understand, has advocated this Bill on the ground that it would conduce to economy. He also said it would mean rather less profits for the legal profession, which I am very sorry to hear, because I should be the last to take away any profits from anyone, especially so eminent a body as lawyers. But I do wish to congratulate him on having been the first member of the Government actually to produce a Bill which is going to conduce to economy. All members of the Government have advocated other people being economical, but not gone beyond that. Now my right hon. and learned Friend not only brings in a Bill which will result in economy, but economy to himself, he being a member of the learned profession. Therefore I should like very humbly, and very sincerely, to offer my congratulations to him.
I think this is an excellent salutary measure in the main, and I congratulate the Government on doing something to further that quiet process by which the form of the law of this country has been steadily improved during the last few years, and which, I hope, will result in some general measure of codification on which we may have to congratulate either this Government or its successors. I sympathise with the criticism passed by the hon. and learned Member opposite. We are by this Bill delegating our legislative power to a Committee consisting of suitable and eminent persons—I do not join at all in the condemnation of the personnel of the Committee—but we are delegating our legislative power to those persons on a very important subject of law. It has been found by experience that the safeguard which appears on the face of the Bill of laying Rules on the Table of the House, and making them the subject of criticism and notice here, is entirely illusory. I think that if a return were presented of the powers delegated by the Legislature to various bodies during the last ten years while I have had the honour of being a Member of this House, the result would be such as to surprise Members, and it would appear that we have on one occasion and another delegated and abandoned absolutely what in the total amounts to a considerable section of the sphere of legislative activity. That I regard as a deplorable thing, and especially with regard to the criminal law of the land, which is a matter of great importance to certain sections of the community; and I should like to remind hon. Members that it is interesting to all of us because we are all potential criminals.
If the hon. and learned Member at a later stage should produce an appropriate Amendment embodying or sanctioning as it were the rules set out in the Schedule, and leave the matter there. I should be inclined as at present advised to support him, because I think when the occasion arises it will be quite competent for this House to make the requisite change in the rules and forms, and that it is better even to submit to a little inconvenience owing to delay in these reforms than that we should ever abandon our legislative jurisdiction. With regard to the actual reforms effected by the rules set out in the Schedule, and the forms that follow them, I find it difficult to speak with anything but praise. It seems to me that to abolish these interminable indictments, which some of us have had the misfortune to peruse, is a good thing for everybody. It will tend to the clearness, the brevity, and the certainty of legal proceedings. With these remarks I congratulate the Government on the introduction of such a measure, and I hope to see it on the Statute Book notwithstanding the protest of the hon. and learned Member that this is not a war measure. There are some things that are not war measures that can be usefully advanced and placed on the Statute Book when they are of a non-controversial character, and which really conduce to the public benefit.
I do not intend to offer any opposition to this Bill, though I am bound to say that, personally, I dislike the Bill, and I think it was a great pity to bring in a Bill altering the whole foundation of criminal procedure at a time like this when Members' minds are devoted to other subjects. The Bill really makes a revolution in criminal procedure and in criminal pleadings, the effect of which it is very hard to conceive without considerable study. The forms of indictment that have grown up in hundreds of years in our Courts for the protection of the subject are matters which have been dealt with over and over again by judges who have had to administer the criminal law all through the United Kingdom, and have been always framed with a view to the liberty of the subject. All that is now to be swept away, and, although this Bill came down from the House of Lords, so long as I was Attorney-General I refused to bring the Bill forward, because I think it is a Bill which requires the greatest possible care, and ought to be looked into by those best qualified to judge what the effects will be.
I have only risen to suggest that if this Bill is going to be passed into law it ought to be referred to some Committee of experts to deal with. I do not think a Committee of the House would be of the least use. All the different rules and all the different forms which have grown up are most intricate. I do not in the least object to simplifying, and I may add, with reference to what my hon. Friend said, I do not believe that this Bill, so far as expenses are concerned, will make the slightest difference. No doubt the proceedings here are shorter than the existing form, but every Act of Parliament you pass of this kind, as regards procedure, either in the Civil Courts or in the Criminal Courts, cost for their administration and for their exposition thousands and thousands of pounds until the various points that arise upon them are settled. For my own part I would have liked this Bill to have had far more consideration than it can possibly get at the present time. Meanwhile, I would suggest to my right hon. and learned Friend, who has, I am glad to say, been appointed to this post, that he ought not to refer this Bill, as I understood he would, to a Committee of the Whole House, but he ought to refer it to a Committee of experts on this subject, who could consult men who have been accustomed to administer the criminal law, and they ought to take care that in making improvements they do not raise further difficulties in the matters they are trying to improve.
It seems to me that because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson) left the Cabinet upon very high State matters entirely removed from this issue that that is a reason why this Bill makes its appearance. What effect will that have upon the laymen of the House? When the right hon. Gentleman introduced this Bill I was pleased with two points which he raised. One of them was in regard to economy, and the other was to make it better and easier for the accused person. That is a point which commended this measure to me even more than economy. I have not always found that the legal Members of this House are more reliable authorities where the liberty of the subject is concerned than those who sit on these benches. I came to this House with a prejudice against the legal profession. I venture to say that the right hon. Gentleman will have a very large proportion of the House behind him in asking for special treatment for this Bill. If it is referred to a Committee of the Whole House it cannot really be discussed in an effective way. I know some Members of the House would attend and discuss the measure, but I should have more confidence in a proper legal tribunal doing it thoroughly at their leisure, and even considering the question as to whether it should apply to Ireland. I should have much greater confidence in dealing with a measure which is the result of an examination upon all these points by experts. Therefore I appeal to the Government to consider this point. I intended to raise one or two questions, but after the momentous speech which has just been delivered I do not feel inclined to put them. I hope the House will be content now with the Second Reading and take time to consider the pronouncement which has just been made before deciding the next stage.
It is with some diffidence, after what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University has said, but without hesitation, that I welcome this Bill. I claim to have had some experience in the criminal courts. It is not so much a matter of importance where a prisoner is attended by counsel, but I would defy any ordinary prisoner who understands an indictment, reading it consecutively, to get any clear idea of the charge it contains. It has now been decided that if an offence in the indictment was committed on a particular day and a particular year and the year was given in numbers instead of being written out in full, the indictment would fail. That might be very well when a prisoner could not be heard in his own defence by giving evidence or when he could not take any steps to defend himself, and naturally judges were alarmed at the sentences they had to impose in regard to what we now consider as very trivial offences. A prisoner can now give evidence himself and call his witnesses. He can have counsel assigned to him at the expense of the county, and he has also been given the privilege of an appeal. In this measure all that is proposed does not alter the law or affect the liberty of the subject. The law remains just the same as to what is an offence, and all that is proposed is a matter of procedure. The prisoner will be plainly told, in short language, the offence with which he is charged. The hon. Member for Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) said he did not find in the Schedule of this Bill any reference to a charge of conspiracy, but such an illustration is given in the Bill. The same hon. Member also said that he did not think it contained a capital charge, but it does contain such a charge.
I did not say so.
Then I am wrong; but I thought the hon. and learned Member said that there was no illustration of the form of charge in regard to a capital offence. That, however, is a small matter. What is the substance of that which is proposed by this Bill? It is purely a change in procedure. If a man is brought forward upon a charge of conspiracy to defraud they have to set out the facts on which the prosecution relies so that an ordinary intelligent man can understand what he has to meet. It further provides that the prisoner may at the expense of the county be provided with a written copy of what the charge is against him. This question of procedure will not in any way affect the liberty of the subject or the rights of any man. The prosecution will still have to prove the charge and bring the prisoner within the common law under some statutory offence. What is the man's protection if they fail? He has precisely the same protection now that he ever had, for he has a right to go before the Court of Criminal Appeal. With great respect to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, I wholly fail to understand how it can be suggested that this alteration in procedure can create or give rise to any cost or expense in regard to settling what the proper forms should be. A suggestion has been made that we are delegating to a Rule Committee to be appointed under the Bill the powers of this House. On this point I agree with what the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) says, and I would rather trust a matter of this kind to lawyers than to a Committee of this House. I think this measure will be adequately dealt with by a Committee appointed to consider the Bill. No committee can alter the law, and the offence must still be proved. It is a mere simple matter of procedure which is entirely in the interests of the prisoner and in the interests of economy.
I think it is an admirable Bill, and we ought to proceed with it. There may be one or two criticisms found to be necessary. I have read this measure somewhat carefully, and I think some Amendments will be necessary in Committee. May I point out as an illustration that under Rule 4, Sub-rule (3), which the Solicitor-General read, I do not follow why it says that the statement of offence shall describe the offence shortly in ordinary language, avoiding as far as possible the use of technical terms, and without necessarily stating all the essential elements of the offence. I think it ought to state the essential elements of the offence and the points which it is sought to prove against the prisoner in order that he may, if possible, negative those points which are essential issues in regard to his guilt or innocence. I think it is important that those matters should be pointed out, and I do not see why the words I have referred to should be introduced. There is another point in regard to a man charged with an offence which involves intent, and there may be one or two other matters which will need amendment in Committee. It has been said that this Bill has been considered by a competent body of lawyers. Speaking for myself, and seeing the way in which this Bill and its Schedules have been drawn, I am satisfied that this measure must have been considered before presentation by able and competent lawyers well qualified to deal with the matter. Speaking broadly, it is an admirable Bill in the interests of the prisoners, and I hope it will be pressed forward most strongly.
As a member of the Joint Committee which considered this Bill, I would like to give my opinion upon it. I would describe it as by no means a revolution of the criminal law, because it is substantially an alteration of procedure in a definite manner and in the direction of legal reform. I think it is a measure which makes the whole business clearer to all the parties concerned. I think there may be reasons when an indictment is read over to the prisoner why it should be ex- plained to him as well as read. The procedure which this Bill introduces is substantially the same as that which learned jurists have introduced in India, where it has been a great success. The Indian Code contains a provision that the prisoner shall not only have the indictment read over to him, but that he shall have it explained. I can see no reason why that should not be done. With regard to the remark that this Bill has not been fully considered, the Solicitor-General has already explained that it was considered by a very competent tribunal before it went to another place. Several lawyers and others well competent to deal with the matter were interviewed by the Committee, and Mr. Justice Avory gave us his advice on some important matters. I think, therefore, that the Bill ought at least to pass a Second Reading, because most of the objections I have heard so far are such as might be dealt with in Committee.
6.0 P.M.
I do not approach this matter as a criminal lawyer, but as a common-sense man, and, listening to the Debate, I must say that I am strongly in favour of this Bill being proceeded with. Some little time ago I received letters from two lawyers whom I respect very much, asking me to do all that I could to see that this Bill was not forgotten, and to see that it was put through. I took the opportunity of having a conversation with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson), who was then the Attorney-General, and, very much to my surprise, he acquainted me with the fact that he objected to this Bill. He has told the House quite candidly that while he was Attorney-General he actually held this Bill back. That is quite intelligible, but let me point out that this Bill had been a very long time before Parliament. It was introduced in another place before the Coalition Ministry was formed. It had to run the gauntlet of eminent lawyers, like Lord Halsbury, and others, and it passed through that House.
Does the hon. Gentleman say that Lord Halsbury approved of it?
I do not say that he approved of it, but he allowed it to pass, and, if I might appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, I would ask him to follow the good example of Lord Halsbury.
I did not say that I was opposing the Bill; I suggested that it ought to be referred to a Committee of experts.
I will not pursue this matter any further, but I must point out that it has been a very long time before the public and before lawyers and that it eventually passed through the ordeal of another place. I sincerely hope that the House, having heard the explanations which have been so ably given by the hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Hohler) and the hon. Member for Roxburghshire (Sir J. Jardine), will allow the Second Reading to be taken and will also allow the Bill to be committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Speaking as a lawyer, and I venture to hope also as a man of common sense, which my hon. Friend seems to think is an unusual conjunction, I desire to give my support to this Bill. I have had some experience, as a Recorder, of criminal trials, and it seems to me that the present state of the law has been nothing short of a scandal. It is not only that the complicated form of indictment is not in favour of the prisoner, but if anything it is rather against him. I am quite sure that we all desire two things. First of all, we desire that the indictment should be simpler, so that the prisoner may really understand that with which he is charged. The technical objections which sometimes unfortunately prevail even now and by which men who are obviously guilty are discharged is not a desirable state of things. It is truly desirable that an innocent man should not be convicted, but it is also desirable that men who are guilty should be convicted. The present form of indictment is just neither to the one nor to the other. Therefore, a simplification of it has long been urgently called for. That is the excuse for the Bill being introduced at this time. It seems to me that it should be non-controversial. I see no reason whatever why, even in this time of war, it should not be introduced and receive the attention of this House. I am bound to add, having read the Bill, that I do not entirely concur with the criticisms made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson). I quite agree that the Schedule with the forms which it contains should be subjected to expert criticism, but I find from Clause 2 that there is to be established a Rule Committee composed of experts. To my mind, it is well framed, and the Committee will be one of good experts. That is the reason why I am not entirely in accord with what fell from the right hon. Gentleman. The Schedule with the forms which it contains will be considered by this Rule Committee before the Bill comes into operation. These forms are of the greatest importance. A mistake in any of them might endanger the liberty of the subject. It is therefore of the utmost importance before they become operative that they should receive the approval of the Committee which is ultimately to change them if they are found to want correcting in any particular. I very respectfully throw out the suggestion that the Schedule in the Bill should not become operative until a reasonable time after the appointment of the Rule Committee, so as to give them an opportunity of considering the details in the Schedule and of approving of them before they become operative. That, it seems to me, would meet the difficulty. You have got your experts, and I do think they ought to approve of the Bill in all its details, and particularly of the Schedule, before it becomes operative. With that criticism and suggestion, I beg to give the Bill my most hearty support.
I am extremely sorry that I was not in the House at the time my right hon. Friend the Member for Trinity College (Sir E. Carson) addressed it, and I hope he will not think it was out of any disrespect to him. This Bill is one of the very few subjects on which I was not fortunate enough to see eye-to-eye with my right hon. Friend when, as Solicitor-General, I received his guidance on the various matters which came before us. Although I had not the opportunity of listening to his speech, the substance of the objections which he made have been communicated to me, I have no doubt with substantial accuracy, by my right hon. Friend the Solicitor-General. I agree that in these matters, which are built up as the result of the experience of generations, one ought not lightly or inconsiderately to attempt any change, but, after all, even the layman amongst us would be forced to admit that it would be wholly unnatural to assume a divorce between legal practice and common sense. I agree that as a general proposition one cannot be too cautious in interfering with the fabric which has been cautiously at every stage created. While you have that presumption that there is some underlying basis of common sense in all these things, it is nevertheless true, by the general consent of those who have special experience in dealing with criminal matters, that the attainment of the ends of justice has been very considerably affected by an undue growth of technicalities. The request for reform, I say quite plainly, has not come from within the legal profession. Pressure for reform has been put upon lawyers by the lay community, and I think it has been rightly put upon them. I quite understand my right hon. Friend when he says that he is not here to-night to oppose the Bill. He said perfectly plainly and reasonably that what was present in his mind was an apprehension that the matter had not been sufficiently considered, and he made the suggestion to the House that it might be usefully referred to a further Committee. I should certainly consider with the greatest respect any suggestion made by my right hon. Friend on those lines, but I do really think that the matter has been very fully considered by most competent persons.
Why was Ireland omitted?
I know that Mr. John O'Connor was on the Committee, and he is a member of the Bar. I cannot tell my hon. and learned Friend, but I will make inquiries.
If the Bill is to pass, I think it a great pity that it should not apply to the two countries, in which the procedure has been exactly identical.
I understood from the right hon. Gentleman the Solicitor-General that if there was any desire to extend it to Ireland the Government would consider Amendments accordingly.
If any such undertaking were given by my right hon. Friend, and if my right hon. Friend the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson), who has had very great experience of the Bar both of Ireland and of England, tells me that in his judgment it ought to be extended to Ireland, I can only say that those two opinions would form a weight of authority which it would not be likely would be disregarded. I was dealing with the question as to whether the matter has been sufficiently considered or whether any useful purpose could be served at this stage by forming a Committee to give it further consideration. I know that the Solicitor-General has generally informed the House what steps were taken to consider the matter before these proposals were brought forward, but let me once again tell the House what has been done: It was as long ago as 1913 that Lord Haldane, who was then Lord Chancellor, appointed an Advisory Committee, and I will undertake to say that if my right hon. Friend were asked to-morrow to form an Advisory Committee he would not be able to suggest one which would carry greater weight than that which has considered this matter. The members of the Committee were Mr. Justice Avory, whose experience of criminal matters was probably unrivalled; Sir Charles Mathews, the present Public Prosecutor and for many years Junior Counsel to the Treasury; Sir Mackenzie Chalmers, a permanent official at the Home Office; Sir Herbert Stephen, Clerk of Assize on the Northern Circuit, one of the busiest circuits; Mr. Muir, well known as Senior Treasury Counsel; Mr. Guy Stephenson, Assistant Director of Public Prosecutions; Mr. Clare, of the Lancashire County Council and formerly clerk to the county justices; Mr. Austin, a clerk of justices of great experience; and Mr. Graham Campbell, at present a police magistrate. The Committee was unanimous in the direction of the present Bill.
When the matter came before the House of Lords, as my Noble Friend the then Attorney-General has informed us, that House undoubtedly contemplated these proposals with anxiety. I am a great admirer of my Noble Friend. I shall not quarrel with him, and I must not be understood as disparaging his authority, but one is entitled to examine and look into these matters for himself. The House of Lords listened with the greatest attention and respect to the objections taken by my Noble Friend Lord Halsbury, but it did not consider itself precluded by those objections from appointing a Joint Committee to consider the matter still further in the light of what had been said. It appointed an independent Committee of very great authority. It was a Committee consisting of Lord Loreburn, the Lord Chancellor, Lord Wrenbury (better known as Lord Justice Buckley), Lord Parmoor, Lord Muir McKenzie (many years Secretary to the Lord Chancellor), my right hon. Friend the Solicitor-General, (Mr. Cave), and Mr. John O'Connor, who has experience of both the Irish and the English bars. This Joint Com- mittee examined the witnesses before them. They did not give a merely prefunctory consideration to the question, but they examined the witnesses with the greatest care, and, after considering the whole matter, they supported and recommended the proposal now before the House of Commons. My hon. and learned Friend who has just addressed the House has made a suggestion which I think is very useful. It is certainly true that the safeguards intended in Clause 2 of the Bill were not contemplated by the draftsman as being mainly applicable to the Schedule in its present form. I shall certainly, without hesitation, on behalf of the Government, agree that the activities of the Rule Committee shall not merely begin after this Bill has become an Act, but that the Committee shall be called into being before that and shall advise as to the existing Schedule, and not merely as to the Schedule as it may appear in the Bill when it has become an Act.
I sincerely hope the House will accept the Bill. Any Amendment suggested in Committee will be most carefully considered by the Law Officers of the Crown. I have no difficulty in recommending the Bill to the House because I am convinced, in the first place, that it is a Bill which is in the interest of laymen, and, in the second place, it is a Bill in the interests of uninstructed men who may find themselves in positions of grave difficulty very often without resources for legal aid. There is one other argument which no doubt will carry weight. It is a Bill which undoubtedly will curtail the expenses of the law and somewhat reduce the emoluments of lawyers.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-one minutes after Six o'clock.