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Commons Chamber

Volume 76: debated on Thursday 25 November 1915

House of Commons

Thursday, November 25, 1915

Private Business

Port Dundas Church and Parish Quoad Sacra, Glasgow, Order Confirmation Bill,

Considered; to be read the third time upon Tuesday next.

Dominions (Royal Commission)

Copy presented of Memorandum and Tables relating to the Food and Raw Material Requirements of the United Kingdom prepared by the Royal Commission on the Natural Resources, Trade, and Legislation of certain portions of His Majesty's Dominions [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Wages and Effects of Deceased Seamen

Copy presented of Account of the sums received and paid in respect of Wages and Effects of Deceased Seamen in the year ended the 31st March, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 389.]

General Lighthouse Fund

Copy presented of Account of the General Lighthouse Fund, showing the Income and Expenditure for the year ending 31st March, 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 390.]

Shops Act, 1912

Copy presented of Order made by the Secretary for Scotland, dated 24th November, 1915, under the Act affecting all Shops in the parish of Kincardine, in the county of Ross and Cromarty [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Greece and the Allies

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what advances of money, if any, have been made or promised to Greece by the Allied Powers since the War started?

I regret that it is not desirable in the public interest at this moment, to give details of financial transactions between this country and allied and neutral countries.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is in a position to make a statement as to the present situation in regard to Greece and the Allies?

Bulgaria

asked if the British Minister in Sofia informed the Foreign Office about the month of March last that Bulgaria would join the Central Powers and that further negotiations with Bulgaria would be abortive?

asked if the British. Minister Plenipotentiary in Sofia was recalled in the early part of this year; and, if so, what was the reason?

No, Sir, he was not recalled. He was granted leave of absence. The whole proceeding was described in my answer to the hon. Member for North Somerset on 20th October, and to that answer I have nothing to add.

Steamship "Woodford" Capture of Survivors by Arabs

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any information respecting survivors of the London steamer "Woodford" having been captured by Arabs on the North African coast and held to ransom?

I am informed by His Majesty's Agent at Tangier that twelve survivors from the "Woodford" are in the hands of the Bocoya tribe. The Spanish authorities are in negotiation for their release.

Peace Terms

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information regarding the proposed international meeting at Zurich to discuss terms of peace; whether any French representatives can be found to attend; and will he say what steps will be taken to prevent any British participation in such a proceeding?

I have no information regarding a proposed international meeting at Zurich. There was a proposal to hold some such meeting at Berne in December, but this has, I understand, been postponed, at any rate, for some months.

Press Telegraphic Charges

asked the Postmaster-General whether the loss of more than ÂŁ200,000 a year, which the Post Office suffered under the Statute of 1868 by the transmission of Press telegrams at exceptionally low prices, is in the future to be reduced by the new arrangement by only ÂŁ60,000 per annum; whether this new arrangement is permanent or temporary; and whether, if the expenses of the War keep mounting up month by month, a reduction of the remaining loss to the country, namely, ÂŁ140,000 per annum, will be reconsidered?

The new rates are expected to reduce the loss on Press telegrams by about ÂŁ60,000 per annum. I do not anticipate an early revision of these rates, which have only recently been authorised by Parliament, and are not yet in operation.

Dardanelles Expeditionary Force (Letters and Parcels for Troops)

asked whether arrangements have been made to expedite the delivery of letters and parcels from home to troops on the Gallipoli Peninsula; whether there have been large accumulations of several months' mails in Egypt destined for the troops in Gallipoli; whether the French troops on the Peninsula often receive their mails as much as a fortnight quicker than the British; and, if so, whether the greater proximity to Marseilles can be held to account solely for this difference?

As I explained in reply to the hon. Member for South Monmouthshire yesterday, an accelerated letter mail service to the Dardanelles was instituted on the 12th instant, and an accelerated parcel post service on the 19th instant. There has never been any accumulation of mails for the troops in Gallipoli in Egypt. I have no information as to the mail service given to the French troops in Gallipoli.

National Insurance Act

Dependants' Allowances

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he has reconsidered paragraphs 3 and 8 of the White Paper on dependants' allowances; and if he is now prepared to modify the scheme so as to leave untouched the disablement benefit payable under the Insurance Act?

The matter is still under consideration, and I regret that I am not in a position to give a final answer. As I have already pointed out to my hon. Friend, the matter is one which concerns not only the Admiralty and the War Office, but also the Treasury.

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that there is a great deal of anxiety amongst these poor women, who are the very poorest insured persons under the Act, many of them receiving sweated wages?

I was going to suggest that the hon. Member might put a question down early next week.

Defence of the Realm Act

Banishment from Ireland

asked the Attorney-General for Ireland the charges, respectively, on which Alfred Monaghan was ordered to leave a certain area, then arrested, and is now in prison; why he was not tried in the county in which his offence was alleged to have been committed; whether he is aware that the magistrates accepted as evidence of his speech notes of a policeman not in the room in which the speech was said to have been delivered, and rejected the evidence of persons who were in the room at the time; and, having regard to these facts, whether the prisoner will be released or a new trial ordered?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply on his behalf. The person referred to was charged under Regulation No. 14 of the Defence of the Realm (Consolidation) Regulations, 1914, of acting, or of having acted, or being about to act in a manner prejudicial to the public safety or the Defence of the Realm. He was tried in the place in which he had his residence in accordance with the provisions of the Summary Jurisdiction Acts. The policeman who gave evidence of the speech which he made heard it distinctly through a window and proved it on oath. The magistrate heard the evidence of all witnesses produced by the prisoner before he gave his decision. There is no ground for ordering a new trial, and this will not be done. The exercise of the prerogative of mercy is one solely for the Lord Lieutenant.

Is it the usual practice to employ police in Ireland to listen at the window?

asked under what provision of the Defence of the Realm Act Mr. Desmond Fitzgerald was arrested for disobeying a banishment order, tried for an alleged speech, and sentenced to six, months' imprisonment for a quotation by the Crown Prosecutor, of which no evidence was given; and, having regard to these facts, whether the prisoner will be released or a new trial ordered?

Mr. Desmond Fitzgerald was arrested under Regulation 55 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations for having committed offences under these Regulations, and he was charged with offences under Regulations 14 and 27. He was convicted upon evidence of witnesses given upon oath substantiating the charges against him and not upon the statement of the prosecuting solicitor. There is no ground for having a new trial and this will not be done. As I have just stated, the exercise of the prerogative of mercy is one solely for the Lord Lieutenant.

Was this gentleman not arrested for disobeying a banishment order, tried for a speech and sentenced on the Crown Prosecutor's speech instead of his own?

I do not think the Crown Prosecutor's speech would lead to anybody being sent to prison who was convicted on the oath of witnesses and not upon the statement of the prosecuting solicitor.

Questions

Railway Travelling Facilities

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that railway companies are constantly refusing to book seats in advance for passengers, thus compelling persons travelling on business or on public service either to risk failing to get a seat in the train or to waste valuable time loitering in a railway station; and whether he will give instructions to the Railway Executive Committee that seats must be reserved for persons travelling on business or on public service?

I do not think that this is a matter in which I can interfere with the discretion of the railway companies.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Railway Executive Committee pressed the railways to withdraw these facilities?

Recruiting

Mule Spinners (Exemption)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that many cotton mills cannot be carried on unless mule spinners are exempted from military service; and, if so, whether they will be treated as an exempted class?

This matter has been fully considered by the Reserved Occupations Committee in consultation with the representatives of the trade and, at present, they are of opinion that it does not appear necessary to place cotton spinners on the reserved list.

Metropolitan Police

asked the Home Secretary to state the number of men of military age who have been enrolled in the Metropolitan Police since the outbreak of war and since the passing of the Police (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1915, respectively; how many men since the later date have been granted permission by the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police to enlist in His Majesty's Forces; is he aware that men of military age have recently been enrolled in this police force; is he aware that the men who have already enlisted in His Majesty's Forces consider it unfair that their places in the police force should be filled by less experienced men; and can he remedy this grievance?

From the outbreak of the War until 19th May, when the Act mentioned in the question came into force, 896 men were enrolled. Since that date the enrolment of constables has practically ceased, only 36 having been appointed, of whom 22 were men discharged from the Army. The number of constables who have enlisted in the Army under the conditions prescribed by the Act is 1,115. No men of military age have recently been enrolled, and the places of the men who have enilsted have not been filled. They will resume their places in the police when released from military duty.

Land Valuation Department

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he will consider the possibility of replacing officials released from his Department for war service by men dismissed from the Land Valuation Department who are ineligible for military service?

There is, I fear, little or no probability of vacancies occurring in my Department of a kind in which the professional qualifications of these gentlemen could with advantage be utilised.

Enlistment of Boys

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that many youths under eighteen of precocious physical development are constantly being canvassed for recruiting and, on stating their true age, are reproached as liars, slackers, and cowards, and that stung by such taunts youths have enlisted, giving false ages; and whether, to prevent a continuance of these evils, he will allow youths who produce evidence of their age being under eighteen to promise to offer themselves when required and meanwhile to be furnished with some distinctive badge?

There may be cases such as my hon. Friend describes, but there are also cases where youths of precocious physical development, desiring eagerly to enlist, stoutly represent that their age is greater than it really is. The rule at present is that recruits under eighteen cannot be taken, and if a youth who is under eighteen produces evidence to that effect to anyone who may chance to canvass him he will not be enlisted. Anyone known to be under eighteen should not be canvassed, but I think the burden lies with the individual of showing that he does not come within the conditions of eligibility.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can say why Ned Sheehy, of Newcastle West, county Limerick, No. 5817, B Company, 8th Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers, Down Camp, Farnborough, Hants, a boy under sixteen years of age, who joined the Army last August, has not got his discharge, although his father demanded it from the officer commanding his regiment and sent the boy ÂŁ2 to bring him home; and whether it is still the intention of the War Office to detain him?

My hon. Friend will realise that details of each enlistment or discharge can hardly be kept at the War Office. I am obtaining information, and when I receive it I will communicate the result to my hon. Friend.

Seeing that this boy is only fifteen years of age, would there be any great detriment in allowing him to go home?

Questions

Central Appeal Tribunal

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why, upon the Recruiting Central Appeal Tribunal, there is only one member associated with business and no labour representative; and whether, with a view to strengthening the public confidence in the tribunal, he will add representative business men and labour representatives?

I will consult with my Noble Friend Lord Lansdowne, who was responsible for the constitution of this body.

Gamekeepers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to a case in which a man was fined ÂŁl 1s., with ÂŁl 1s. costs, for killing a rabbit belonging to the Mackintosh of Mackintosh; and, in view of the fact that two gamekeepers of military age appeared for the prosecution, can he state how many men are employed in the preservation of game in the United Kingdom, and whether any special efforts will be made to secure their services for more important work than that revealed in this case?

The circumstances mentioned in the first part of the question would not, as such, come before the attention of the Army Council. I am not quite clear on what evidence the hon. Gentleman has reached the conclusion that the two gamekeepers who were mixed up in the incident were of military age. I am unable to say how many men are employed in the preservation of game, but I can inform the hon. Gentleman that special efforts are being made to secure for the Army the services of all eligible men, including gamekeepers, who are not already employed in work that is essential to the public well-being.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confer with Lord Derby as to the advisability of suspending the Game Laws, so as to enable all these men to give their services?

No, Sir, I cannot do that, for this reason: that the article they are preserving is very useful for human food. Moreover, so far as my knowledge goes, almost the entire proportion of those who are eligible for Army service have already joined the Colours.

In view of his reply, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this rabbit was alleged to have been killed by this man in order to provide food for a sick child; therefore the abolition of the Game Laws would facilitate that provision?

Would the hon. Member make inquiries as to the eligibility or otherwise of the person who killed the rabbit?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that rabbits are not within the Game Laws at all?

Trading in Germany (British Firms)

asked if any British individuals or firms are allowed to do business in Germany under their own names or under the name of a German company in which they have incorporated themselves, in the same way in which German firms of pianoforte dealers and others are allowed to trade in business in London under colour of English companies?

I have no exact information, but I believe the general German practice is to place such firms under the charge of an official administrator.

Are the English firms in Germany treated with the same latitude and benevolence as the German firms in England?

I do not know exactly how to describe their treatment, but they are subject to very much the same sort of supervision as German firms in England.

Are all German firms so acting in this country under official supervision?

I cannot answer that question in the form in which the hon. Member has put it, and it would have to be put more precisely. The question I have answered refers to British firms in Germany.

Enemy Aliens

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any and, if so, how many aliens who have since the outbreak of war been sentenced to terms of imprisonment have been released from prison without being immediately interned?

Assuming that the question relates to alien enemies, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to his question on this subject on the 9th June last, in which I stated the practice. I cannot give figures, but I may say that the rule has been strictly applied and that in the great majority of cases the alien has been interned.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many exceptions there are to that rule?

If the hon. Gentleman will refer to the earlier answer, he will see that information is in substance what was given. I cannot give him the number of exceptions because I do not not know the number of cases, but I am sure there has been no exceptions except such as were justified on some wholly special ground.

Clerical and Commercial Employments Committee

asked whether any and, if so, what measures are being taken in London to carry out the recommendations of the Clerical and Commercial Employments Committee in regard to the mobilisation and training of women as substitutes for men in those employments who are now offering themselves for service with the Colours?

I am informed that the London County Council has been in communication with employers and has established classes at Fulham Training College and is about to establish others. Already demands for women clerks are being received from employers and a considerable number of suitable women are being trained. The council are also consulting with the authorities in Greater London with a view to securing co-operation, and they are ready to arrange for special courses of instruction for particular classes of business when the demand is sufficient. The supply of applicants for training is as yet far from adequate, and it is important that women who are in a position to offer themselves as temporary substitutes for men who have enlisted, as well as employers who are anxious to engage such substitutes, should at once communicate with the London County Council's education officer at Victoria Embankment.

Is it not a fact that the London County Council have already commenced these classes?

German Camp (Internment of Alsatian)

asked the Home Secretary if he is aware that Frenchmen from Alsace and Lorraine are interned along with Germans and subjected to ill-treatment from them, especially complaining of the German censorship of French letters; that an Alsatian, born before the German conquest and who left Alsace to escape German rule, has lived here for thirty-five years and has two sons fighting in the British Army, is now interned in a German camp and subjected to continual ill-treatment and vexation; and will he say what action he proposes to take in this and similar cases?

Steps are taken, in consultation with the French authorities, to exempt from internment aliens from Alsace or Lorraine who are of French origin and sympathies. If my hon. Friend will let me have the name of the Alsatian to whom he refers and say what camp he is in, I will make inquiry.

Munitions

Sunday Labour (Workers' Health)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has received any representations to the effect that the continued prevalence of Sunday labour is tending to lessen the physical efficiency of great numbers of munition workers; whether he has had any inquiries made into the effect of Sunday labour on output; and, if so, whether he will inform the House of the result of these inquiries?

The whole question of the effect of long hours upon the health of workers and upon production of munitions of war has been engaging close attention, and my right hon. Friend has appointed a Committee under the Chairmanship of Sir George Newman, M.D., to advise him about it. This Committee has presented an interim report on the question of Sunday labour and my right hon. Friend hopes shortly to be able to lay before the House this report and the recommendations of the Ministry.

Factory Canteens

asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been called to the appeal in the Press on the 22nd for the voluntary help of ladies to serve in canteens at munition factories; whether he is aware that, so far as Woolwich Arsenal is concerned, there is an ample number of volunteers, but that those who are poor are debarred from taking any part in this work owing to the refusal of the Board of Trade to grant facilities for obtaining railway tickets at workmen's rates; whether he still attaches sufficient importance to the provision of hot temperance drinks and wholesome food by night and day to munition workers to justify the provision of these facilities to volunteers; and, if so, whether he will take steps to see that the Departmental obstacles are overcome?

The points raised in the hon. Member's question have been the subject of careful consideration by the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Munitions, and I understand that the hon. Member was recently informed that the particular suggestion was not considered practicable. I may, however, add that the Ministry of Munitions have been consulting the Canteen Committee of the Central Control Board on the whole subject of the provision and management of canteens for munition workers, to which they attach great importance, and I am glad to say that steps are being taken; with a view to a large increase in the canteen facilities at Woolwich to meet the extensions now being made.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the steps he speaks of as being taken are likely to result in the workmen engaged at Woolwich on day and night shifts being able to get an adequate supply of wholesome food and temperance drinks in the middle of their working hours?

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Minister of Munitions the total amount of compensation paid or payable to all branches of the liquor trade in respect of the restrictions imposed upon the sale and consumption of alcoholic liquor by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)?

Provision is made in Clause 16 of the present Finance Bill for a remission of part of the Licence Duty in the case of licensed traders whose hours of sale of intoxicating liquor are restricted by the Board. I am unable to state what would be the amount of duty so remitted. The Defence of the Realm Losses Royal Commission has been established to deal with, cases of direct and substantial loss incurred by individuals by reason of interference with their property or business under the Defence of the Realm (Amendment) (No. 3) Act, 1915, but I am unable to say what view the Commission would take of an application for compensation in respect of the matters mentioned in the question.

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a conference of trade unions convened to fight the new liquor trade closing Order for the London area; and whether, in view of the accumulating evidence of local dissatisfaction with the Regulations made from time to time by the Central Board of Control for the Liquor Traffic, he will now consider the desirability of taking steps by legislation or otherwise to impose uniform restrictions, subject to fair compensation, upon the sale and consumption of liquor throughout Great Britain?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I am informed that the Central Control Board, following their usual practice, are constantly conferring with the representatives of the principal trade unions particularly affected by the operations of the Board. I am not aware of any accumulating evidence of local dissatisfaction with the Regulations made by the Control Board, but, on the other hand, I have received information that these Orders have produced in the areas to which they have been applied a considerable reduction of drunkenness, improvements in the efficiency of labour, and better public order. I do not think the moment has arrived when it is profitable to consider whether these Orders should be made general by legislation.

Home Production of Food

Restrictive Covenants

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that the President of the Board of Agriculture has urged farmers to break up pasture land, notwithstanding the covenants in their agreements undertaking that he would personally intervene in case of a dispute between the landowner and tenant; and whether, in view of the serious position in which tenants may find themselves with some landowners in case they commit a breach of covenant, the Government propose to introduce a Land Bill dealing with the question of restrictive covenants and the preservation of game, so as to facilitate the production of food?

As I stated in reply to a question by the hon. Member for the New Forest Division of Hampshire on the 15th October, landlords are showing every desire to further the scheme inaugurated by the President of the Board for increasing the production of food in this country, and there is no reason to suppose that they will decline to relax restrictive covenants in cases where it is shown that it would be to the interest of the State to do so. There does not, therefore, seem to be any present necessity for introducing such a Bill as my hon. Friend suggests.

Foxes

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether any and, if so, what steps have been taken by his Department during the last four months to promote the keeping down of foxes and so safeguard the food supply of the country and particularly the supplies of poultry and eggs?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 21st October to a somewhat similar question put to me by the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division of Sheffield, of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy. I have now received the reports from the officers referred to in the last paragraph of that reply, and they only serve to confirm the information afforded in the first part of that reply.

Allotments

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture how many persons applied for allotments during 1914, and how many were provided with the same; whether he will state the main obstacles to the provision of allotments to all persons who apply for them; and whether, in view of the general agreement that there should be in increase in the home production of food-stuffs, he will take steps to have these obstacles removed?

Twelve thousand seven hundred and thirty-one individuals and two co-operative associations applied to the local authorities for allotments during 1914, the land required amounting to 3,102 acres. Allotments were provided for 3,388 individuals and three associations, but in addition a large number of applicants were provided with allotments on land acquired prior to 1915; and I may remark that there was a smaller number of unsatisfied applicants at the end of 1914 than at the close of any previous year since the Act came into force. The chief obstacle in the way of providing allotments at the present time is the suspension of facilities for borrowing by local authorities for the purchase of land or for the adaptation of land leased or rented.

Might I ask the hon. Gentleman whether the gentlemen co-opted on the county council agricultural committees are almost invariably landowners and land agents in large towns, and whether it is not necessary that some steps should be taken in the interests of small holders?

There are a good many women also co-opted on these committees, and we are trying to do our best to see that the committees give very definite attention to the question of the increase of production by small people in the villages, which, indeed, is one of the most hopeful ways of increasing the production of the country.

Is there a single instance where an agricultural labourer has been co-opted on any one of these committees?

Are the ladies who have been co-opted the wives either of small landowners or of labourers?

Questions

Gold Reserve

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has taken into account the danger to the gold reserve of this country in issuing ÂŁl bonds redeemable on demand unless he makes provision that the redemption should take place in curcency at par as ruling within the United Kingdom?

I see no danger to the gold reserve as suggested in the question.

Is it not a fact that these bonds, under the arrangements which we understand are to be made, would be liable to be paid in gold in alien countries, like the ÂŁ5 notes of the Bank of England?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if any steps have been taken or are contemplated to arrange for the encashment of Bank of England notes by means of currency at par within the United Kingdom so as to protect our gold reserves from depletion through demands for encashment of notes from holders of the same in alien countries?

If, as I understand, the hon. Baronet suggests that Bank of England notes should cease to be encashable in gold coin, the answer is in the negative.

Sugar Supplies

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Royal Commission on Food Supply have purchased and are still purchasing sugar from or through the instrumentality of the firm of Tolme and Runge, of Mincing Lane; whether Mr. J. J. Runge, the expert adviser on sugar to the Royal Commission, is still a member of that firm; and whether, even assuming that Mr. J. J. Runge does not participate in the profits of such purchases, he will give directions that purchases of sugar by the Royal Commission shall not in future be made from or through the firm of Tolme and Runge, but shall only be made from or through firms of British origin and association?

The Royal Commission on Sugar Supplies has from time to time made purchases abroad as the result of offers put forward on behalf of foreign principals by the firm in question, but has not made contracts of any kind with them. Mr. Runge is still a member of the firm, but during his employment by the Commission he has retired from all participation in the business. The Commission is not prepared to give the directions indicated in the last part of the question, and I will observe that the firm in question is a British firm.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the action of the Commission in purchasing through the instrumentality of this firm of Tolme and Runge is causing great dissatisfaction when the purchases might be made through purely British firms?

I am not aware of anything of the sort; on the contrary, the firm in question is highly respected in the whole trade, and I am quite certain that the hon. Member has been misinformed on the point.

Civil Service (War Bonus)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what grades of the Civil Service have made application for a war bonus since the date of his announcement that the Treasury would consider on their merits such applications; how soon a decision on the applications may be expected; whether a considerable number of the Civil servants concerned are in receipt of less than £2 a week; whether war bonuses have been granted to Civil servants receiving wages in excess of that amount; and whether it is the view of the Treasury that the payment of a war bonus is justified to the employés in some departments of the Civil Service and not to those in the others?

Applications for a war bonus have been received from the Association of Second Division Clerks and from the Civil Service Typists' Association, and a number of Departments have forwarded similar applications submitted by their employés. His Majesty's Government, after very careful consideration, decided that a case had not been made out for throwing such heavy additional charges, as would be involved, on the taxpayer at the present time, and a refusal has therefore been, or is being, sent to the applications received. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to his questions on the 20th October.

Allies (Loans and Taxation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether any Ally to whom a loan has been granted by this country has remitted taxation since the commencement of the War; (2) whether any Ally to whom a loan has been granted by this country has imposed increased taxation since the commencement of the War; and (3) whether the financial arrangements entered into between this country and the Russian Government have received, or require to receive, the confirmation of the Russian Duma?

I am not sufficiently familiar with the laws of Allied countries to enable me to reply to these questions.

I think that is a question which might be addressed to the Foreign Secretary. I am not familiar with the French law upon the subject.

Entente Powers (Economic Conditions)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the conferences being held in Vienna to consider the question of future economic relations between the Central Powers; and whether any steps are being taken by the Government to encourage and organise any movement in this country with the object of securing better preparedeness of the Entente Powers for after-war economic conditions?

These questions are engaging the careful consideration of His Majesty's Government, but I am not yet in a position to make any statement on the subject.

Officers and Staff Duties

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he is aware that a commanding officer recommending one or more of his most promising officers to be taken from him to be trained in Staff duties does so at the risk of impairing the efficiency of the unit upon which his own military reputation and future advancement depend, and that it must in any case increase both his work and his anxieties; whether the War Office considers that all commanding officers have sufficient altruism and clear sighted patriotic feeling to embarrass and perhaps to injure themselves in this way; whether he will consider the desirability of adopting some better method to discover those young officers most suitable to train for Staff employment; and (2) whether the War Office considers that officers recovered from wounds or from sickness contracted on field service, or who are at home resting after strenuous duty at the front, should be given a preference for Staff training over other officers who have youth, unexhausted vitality, high ability, and scientific or specialised training in their favour; and, seeing that Staff appointments are better paid, less dangerous, and more comfortable than duty with a regiment, say, in the trenches, does the War Office look upon Staff posts in the field as prizes for meritorious officers generally or as work of a peculiarly specialised kind for which natural aptitude or very plastic intellectual ability is necessary?

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has asked me to answer these questions, and with my hon. Friend's permission I will answer them together, as far as I am able. A young officer must clearly be put forward for Staff work either by himself or by someone else. Both methods are in vogue, but obviously the superior officer has and must have the last word. There is no reason, however, to believe that the harmonious reconciliation of the points of view in this matter of the regimental officer and his commanding officer on the one hand, and, on the other hand, of the claims of the Staff and of the units to the services of the more promising officers is not secured under the existing system, subject of course to inevitable occasional exceptions due to the incursion of the human element. As regards the other question I think I can only say that the War Office view is that the men best suited for the Staff should be selected and trained for Staff work, irrespectively of any hard and fast theoretical criteria.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the present system gives us the best Staff officers?

National Economy

asked the Prime Minister if he will consider the propriety and the value by way of public example in the sphere of economy and self-denial of suggesting to Parliament that the public remuneration of all Ministers of the Crown and of all Members of Parliament who are in receipt of a private income of at least ÂŁl,000 per annum, or the balance of such remuneration beyond the amount required to make such annual income up to ÂŁ1,000, shall henceforth, until the termination of the War, either be remitted to the Treasury or presented as a collective gift to the British Red Cross Society for the relief of the wounded, or form a national fund for the reinstatement of the partially disabled in suitable civilian employment?

I think that these are matters which should not be dealt with by law, but left to the discretion and conscience of the persons concerned.

Public Retrenchment Committee

asked the Prime Minister whether he can yet state the names of the Irish Members to be added to the Public Retrenchment Committee for their inquiry into what savings can be properly effected in the Civil Departments in Ireland in view of the necessities created by the War?

Yes, Sir. Sir John Lonsdale and Mr. Boland, Members of this House, and Mr. Walter Kavanagh have accepted my invitation to join the Retrenchment Committee during its inquiry into Irish Services, which has already been begun. Additional members may be added.

American Securities

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the estimate of the value of American securities in this country includes the amounts invested in land and on mortgages of land, and such like securities which are not readily saleable?

Foreign Securities

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the grounds for estimating that ÂŁ4,000,000,000 worth of foreign securities are held in this country; if that was the estimate of the value before the depreciation occasioned by the War took place and before the realisation of these securities; and whether he is aware that ÂŁ3,000,000,000 would be the probable value of these securities at the present time?

As I explained, in answer to a question on the 26th July, no official information is available, and the estimate given was that which appeared in the "Statist" of 14th February, 1914. I am afraid that I could not hazard an opinion as to the present value of our investments outside this country.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there must be a considerable reduction from the estimate made by the "Statist"?

If the estimate made in February, 1914, was accurate, then I have no doubt that the amount is less; but I cannot answer for the estimate made by the "Statist."

War Loan Bonds

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in connection with the proposed issue of ÂŁ1 bonds, bearing 5 per cent. interest and cashable at par, it is contemplated that the amount which any one investor may put into these bonds shall be unlimited; if the bonds will be redeemable at any fixed date; and, if so, at what date?

The details of the scheme which I outlined generally on Monday last will be for the consideration of the proposed Committee.

Pre-War Contracts

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that, owing to the War taking men, material, and money from the building trades, builders have been left with the burden and liability of fulfilling pre-war contracts, and particularly with respect to agreements for building leases made just prior to war breaking out, and that, in a number of such cases, ground landlords are insisting upon large speculative building works proceeding under such contracts notwithstanding the state of war; and whether, in view of the necessity of conserving the nation's financial and other resources, and particularly the labour of men engaged in building industries, he will consider the desirability of introducing legislation providing for an appeal to a war emergency or other Court whereby relief may be granted to the parties concerned in such contracts either by way of postponement or as the tribunal may determine?

So far as my information goes, cases such as those referred to in the question are of very rare occurrence. Legislation on the subject would not be in my Department.

Invalided Soldiers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to give the House some information regarding the food provided on board ship for officers and men invalided home from the Dardanelles suffering from dysentery and enteric, and also regarding the provision on board ship of medical necessaries for such cases?

I am still awaiting further information; but, if the hon. Gentleman refers to hospital ships, I may inform him that these are supplied with a regular hospital diet and with the necessary medical comforts. Transports, as he is probably aware, are not intended to carry serious cases, but these ships are also provided with hospital comforts.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great number of men have been carried home on transports which have not been provided with hospital comforts.

I am, of course, aware that a large number of wounded men have been carried home on transports, and although I agree with the hon. Gentleman as to the hospital comforts running short on the transports in the first instance, that danger has now been averted.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that many soldiers are invalided home from the front suffering from tuberculosis for whose care no proper provision is made; that numbers of these patients are being treated at Brompton Hospital, but that on their discharge from the hospital, no special sanatorium being provided for them, they are obliged to return to their own homes, thus endangering their families and others with the spread of the disease; and whether, seeing that these men are contributors under the National Insurance Act, he will request the Insurance Commissioners to place one or more of the sanatoria at present empty at the disposal of the War Office for the exclusive reception and treatment of soldiers suffering from tubercular disease?

My hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The hon. Member will be aware that the military authorities are responsible for the treatment of tuberculous soldiers up to the date of their discharge from the Army. In cases where further residential treatment is necessary on re-entry into civil life, special arrangements, both administrative and financial, have been in operation for a considerable time which secure that the necessary accommodation is made available without delay. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a circular describing these arrangements, which I believe fully meet the case. If the hon. Member has any particular case in mind in which difficulty has arisen, perhaps he will communicate with me.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are large numbers of men discharged from the Army long before they are cured of tuberculous disease, and that they are necessarily thrown upon their own resources?

No, Sir. We have a special fund to deal with those cases. I believe the arrangements are working very satisfactorily.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware of the fact that local authorities are prevented from making extra provision now on account of the restriction on borrowing?

Officers' Attainments

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of causing an up-to-date method of indexing and ready reference to be kept by each divisional and Army corps commander giving succinctly the previous occupation and the scientific, professional, university, or other particular attainments, if any, of all the young officers of the New Armies and of the Territorial Forces under his command, so that, should need arise, specialists can be discovered immediately and be reported upon without delay?

If my hon. Friend visited the Divisional and Army Corps Headquarters at the front he would, I think, realise the undesirability of creating and maintaining an elaborate clerical record such as he suggests. The point, however, is an important one, but it is already provided for. Unit commanders are not in command of a larger number of officers than they are able to know personally, and they know the personal attainments and characteristics of each officer. They are, consequently, always in a position to give their superior officers information on this matter. This is the system in force in Regular units, and it is equally efficacious and desirable in the case of Territorial and Service units.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the demand of the Army in France is for a superior staff and superior steel helmets?

Are not the things asked for kept in the records of the regiment at home?

I do not know that I appreciate the difference between keeping the records at home and keeping them abroad. If the unit happens to be in the field, of course it is desirable that records should be kept. There is no elaborate scheme of clerical labour in these matters. In reply to the hon. Member (Sir G. Scott Robertson), I am aware of what he says, but I do not see the relevance of the steel helmets.

Would not a clerk at 25s. or 30s. a week, using a card index, be able to give this information at any moment?

I do not think the matters to which the hon. Member has alluded are those that ought to be in the hands of clerks of that type; they ought to be reserved entirely for the high officers in command of the regiments.

Discharged Soldiers

asked if it can be represented to His Majesty that many men who have done good service in the War are being discharged without any war medal being given to them and have nothing to show except their discharge papers, and that it would be desirable that such men should be entitled to wear a ribbon if, as yet, no medal is available?

I stated, in a written answer given on the 17th June to the hon. Member for Hammersmith, that the issue of a medal at the then stage of hostilities appeared premature. The same statement holds good now, and applies, I think, equally to a riband and to a medal. It is obvious that a riband would be easily procurable in an irregular manner, and would frequently be worn by unauthorised persons. I am very doubtful, therefore, whether the suggestion made by the hon. Gentleman is either feasible or desirable.

Army Medical Services (Advisory Board)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why no meetings have been held during 1915 of the Advisory Board for Army Medical Services; by whom and under what authority have the paid members been constantly consulted; and has an unanimous written opinion of any six out of the eleven members been obtained during the present year on any question of policy?

I think my hon. Friend will agree that it is desirable to modify administrative machinery created in peace to meet the requirements of war, and from this point of view it has been preferable to use the services of the Army Medical Advisory Board in the manner I described in my answer of the 22nd November, rather than in the normal and more formal manner. The answer to the second part of the question is, of course, the Director-General of the Army Medical Service. As regards the last part of the question, I am not aware that there has been any want of unanimity amongst the members save that which is usual and a healthy symptom in mobile minds. The Board of which the members were always in agreement would not, I think, command great confidence.

I gave the answer to that the other day. It is the fact that since the War there have been no formal meetings, but there have been constant references and conferences between the members.

What is the object of having this Advisory Board if they have never been called together to consider and advise upon such an important matter?

The hon. Baronet cannot have seen the answer to which I have alluded, which was given on 22nd November. It is to the effect that the duties performed by this Board have been absolutely invaluable and that the medical service, which has been so good and so much admired, could not have been performed without their help.

Is it the policy of the War Office not to hold meetings of the members who are available in this country?

It is the deliberate policy of the War Office not to hold merely formal meetings for no particular purpose. Conferences are very useful and absolutely essential, and they are constantly being held.

Is it not the case that medical advice is more effective if it is given by the medical members separately and not by the Board?

Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the case of a young soldier who, on being charged at Greenwich with being an absentee from his regiment, the 186th brigade, R.F.A., stated that he returned home because he could not see his mother starve; whether the mother, apart from her son's allotment of 3s. 6d., received no separation allowance, though the son had been enlisted for three months; whether his attention has been drawn to the statement of the Police Court missionary that similar cases had come to his notice, and that these cases had a bad effect upon recruiting; and whether the War Office propose to take action in this matter?

I have just seen a newspaper report relating to this case. As no one has communicated to the War Office the soldier's name and number, I am at present unable to say more, but inquiries are being made. Meanwhile, I am rather surprised that in this case no recourse seems to have been made to the recognised machinery for meeting accidental delays of this kind—the Sailors' and Soldiers' Families Association.

Territorial Force

Conditions of Service

asked the Undersecretary of State for War, having regard to the sacrifices already made by Territorials who are serving their country in Flanders, Gallipoli, India, the Persian Gulf, and on home service, whether it is the intention of the Government, in the event of its anticipation of the home service Territorials signing for general service not being materialised, to alter their conditions of service and apply compulsion to those of military age, notwithstanding the fact that they have been voluntarily serving their country since the outbreak of war?

I am aware, as the whole of the House is, of the sacrifices made by Territorial soldiers, in company with Regular soldiers, on behalf of their country. My anticipation is that home-service Territorials will give considerably increased numbers for general service, and I am no more prepared to contemplate the opposite than I am prepared to contemplate that the necessary numbers will not come forward, from the present Tin-enlisted elements in the population, under Lord Derby's scheme. The public references which have been made to other measures in the event of the efforts now being made not finding full fruition could not, I think, be taken to refer to one section of the population only. I make this statement, of course, subject to the general statements of policy on this matter which have frequently been made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and of which one of the latest is that made yesterday in reply to the hon. Baronet the Member for Mid-Armagh.

Recruiting Regulations

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether paragraph 117 of the Recruiting Regulations applies to recruits for the Territorial Forces as well as the Regular Army; if so, under what authority that paragraph is enforced; and (2) whether paragraph 515 of the Regulations for Army Medical Services applies to recruits for the Territorial Forces; and, if so, under what authority that paragraph is enforced?

My hon. Friend apparently desires that I should restate what I have already stated more times than I can recollect. The Territorial Force attestation form does not contain the question, "Are you willing to be vaccinated or revaccinated?" but the question of its incorporation will receive my careful and sympathetic consideration if my hon. Friend so desires.

Wounded Soldiers (Arrears of Pay)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether wounded soldiers returned from the front are sometimes refused payment in full of arrears of pay; if so, whether such refusal is in accordance with instructions issued by the military authorities; if so, what is the justification for such instructions; and whether he will order that arrears of pay shall in all cases, if demanded, be paid in full?

No, Sir. A soldier who demands payment of his full balance receives it; but in accordance with instructions issued by the military authorities in the interests of the soldier himself, large sums are not issued at once unless demanded.

1st Eastern General Hospital (Cambridge)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if he has received representations concerning the management of the 1st Eastern General Hospital, Cambridge; and if he will have inquiry made into the complaints set forth?

Yes, Sir, I have received a representation, and have caused it to be referred for an inquiry and report.

Questions

India (Repatriation of German Subject)

asked the Secretary of State for India why the Indian Government is sending to Germany Herr Schuyler, the manager of Messrs. Ernsthausen, instead of interning him?

I am not informed as to the facts of this individual case or as to the manner in which it has been dealt with in India. I expect to receive information regarding it shortly.

Marquess of Sligo's Motor Yacht (Reported Bomb)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether it was reported to the Westport constabulary recently that explosives had been placed maliciously on a motor yacht belonging to the Marquess of Sligo which was lying near Westport quay; whether the constabulary on investigation found that the explosives referred to were taken from a store in the demesne of the Marquess and to which only his servants and workmen had access; are the police now satisfied that the explosives were placed on the yacht not for the purpose of malicious injury to the owner, but to stigmatise the district as disturbed and lawless; are any legal proceedings or prosecutions contemplated; and, if not, in justice to the people of the district, will a copy of the constabulary report on the subject be furnished to the Westport Urban Council or to the hon. Member for West Mayo with a view to publication?

A report that a bomb had been placed on a motor yacht belonging to the Marquess of Sligo was recently received by the constabulary. The investigation of the facts has not yet been completed, and it would be undesirable to give information with regard to it.

Evicted Tenants (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary if he will explain the information supplied by the Estates Commissioners on page 93 of their last Report, having regard to the rejected cases in columns 5 and 6; whether the case in columns 9, 10, and 11, amounting to 2,588 families, more than 12,500 persons still unprovided for, are open to consideration; at what rate per annum they are being provided for; whether many of them are neglected pending a condition not affecting the merits of their claims and over which they have no control; whether some are denied, on account of sex, the relief to which they are legally entitled; whether he will state the statutory authority for this particular discrimination; whether the Government will take any steps now to redeem their pledges to Irish evicted tenants; and seeing that Mrs. Riggs, of Collinstown, Westmeath, noted as entitled, her evicted farm being still vacant, has been left to die of exposure, will he say what is to be done for her daughter, and when?

The figures given in the last Report of the Estates Commissioners explain themselves to anybody who will read the Report carefully. Of the 2,588 cases referred to in the question as unprovided for, 2,240 are not within the statutory powers of the Estates Commissioners under the Evicted Tenants Act, having been received after the date fixed by that Act, and the Commissioners have no power under the Act to deal with these 2,240 persons. The remaining 348 applications have been noted for consideration, as stated in the Report. It is not a fact that any applicants are denied consideration on account of sex. As regards the remainder of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on Tuesday last.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the number in the last column have or have not been investigated and rejected?

No, Sir; they have not been considered except in this way: The Commissioners are quite willing, when they come to deal, under the Land Purchase Act, with those estates on which the farms of those persons were, to take their case into consideration.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question on the Paper: at what rate per annum those people are being provided for?

The people who are not within the Act are not being provided for under the Act at all; nor can they be.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what he is going to do for this woman whose mother has died of exposure?

I have answered that question before. As the hon. Member knows, it is a very difficult case indeed to deal with, and it is not proposed to do anything.

Official Report (Delivery)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that inconvenience has been caused to Members of this House through the recent frequent delay in delivery of the daily Report of Parliamentary Debates, which is attributed by the printers to irregularities in the postal service; and whether he will take steps to ensure the regular delivery of the Report to Members in London by the first post in the morning?

I regret that it is not practicable to deliver the Parliamentary Reports in some districts of London with the first morning delivery of correspondence. The difficulty arises partly from late receipt from the printers, and has been increased by modifications in the delivery services which have been necessitated by the War. I am communicating further with the printers on the matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that even in the immediate neighbourhood of the House of Commons these Reports are rarely now delivered by the first post in the morning?

Nearness to the House of Commons does not necessarily imply nearness to the source of the delivery.

National Insurance Act

Approved Societies (Valuation)

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether it may be taken for granted that the forthcoming valuations of approved societies will give full weight to the rise in interest rates and the accompanying fall in securities; whether he has received actuarial advice as to the probable effect of these factors upon estimated available benefits for the future; and, if so, will he communicate such advice to this House?

The hon. Member may be assured that no relevant considerations will be ignored in making Regulations under Section 36 (2) of the National Insurance Act, 1911.

Has the hon. Member received actuarial advice as to the probable effect of these factors? The second part of the question is unanswered.

Yesterday, apparently, I gave the hon. Member too long an answer—

To-day, apparently, I have given him too short an answer. Of course, I shall receive all actuarial advice on that matter.

The question is: Has the advice been received? It will be received, of course; but has it been?

I am going to make a statement on that matter later on, and I will deal with it then.

asked whether any actuary of repute has advised that those of the approved societies whose income is based on the average premium or contribution prescribed by the Act and accepted when the Act was passed as fairly corresponding to average lives, but whose expenditure and claims are based of necessity upon he under-average life of the classes from which their membership is drawn are, or ever were, likely to be in a satisfactory financial condition; if so, what is the name of the actuary who so advises and what are his professional qualifications?

I would refer the hon. Member to the actuarial reports laid upon the Table during the passage of the Bill of 1911, Cd. 5681, 5869, 5943, and 5983, from which he will see that his assumption as to the basis of the contribution is not in accordance with the facts.

Sanatorium Benefit (Grant-In-Aid)

asked in what manner has the Grant-in-Aid to insurance committees for sanatorium benefit sanctioned by Parliament in 1914 been made, and which county committees have received such Grant; and what is the unexpended amount?

Of the Grant of £100,000 voted in the Supplementary Estimates for 1914–15, £50,000 was paid into the special account for credit to the several National Health Insurance Funds. The balance of £50,000 was surrendered, and revoted in the Estimates for 1915–16. Payments out of the Grant are being made in connection with the special arrangements for the treatment of soldiers and sailors invalided from service and discharged suffering from tuberculosis. These arrangements are described in a circular, of which I will send the hon. Member a copy.

Bradford Corporation Appeal Case (House of Lords)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the action carried by the Bradford Corporation up to the House of Lords in resisting a claim for a broken window caused by the delivery of goods; and what steps he proposes to take, by legislation or otherwise, to make such litigation by municipal authorities in their capacity as traders impossible?

I am aware of the facts of this case. Although the actual amount involved in this case was trumpery, the question of principle that was raised was of great importance to the public and to local authorities. I scarcely think that, in view of the facts, the case calls for action on my part.

Questions

Development Commission (Land Reclamation)

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the Development Commission has appointed a Committee to inspect and report on areas suitable for profitable reclamation; and whether their Report will be made to the Board of Agriculture?

The Development Commission has encouraged the formation of, and given financial aid to, a Land Reclamation Society which will inspect and report on areas suitable for reclamation. The society's reports will be available for the Commission and the Board of Agriculture.

Foot-and-Mouth Disease

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture what is the total number of outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease and the total number of animals affected and slaughtered, respectively, since the first outbreak in the neighbourhood of Bath a month ago; and what is the area now subjected, in consequence, to restrictions upon the movement of stock?

The total number of outbreaks is now forty-six, of which forty-five have occurred in the Bath and Glastonbury districts and one in Pembroke. The animals already slaughtered comprise 862 cattle, 225 sheep, 324 swine and one goat, and of these 432 cattle, three sheep and 107 swine have, so far, been found to be affected with foot-and-mouth disease. With regard to the last part of the hon. Member's question, it is not very easy to afford a detailed description of the scheduled area otherwise than by reference to the schedules to the various orders that have been issued, but the area now subject to restrictions is one of approximately 15 miles round Bath, and an adjoining area having a radius of about 10 miles from Butleigh, Glastonbury.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture how it occurred that in the case of the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease at Rowley Farm, Butleigh, in the county of Somerset, after the owner, Mr. R. C. Knight, and also Mr. W. Hedley Fairley, of Glastonbury, had correctly diagnosed the disease on the 1st and 2nd instant, respectively, in the animal that was first affected, two of the veterinary inspectors of the Board subsequently failed to identify the disease and the Board on the 10th instant officially notified its non-existence; whether five days later a third veterinary inspector of the Board certified that fifteen other animals on the same farm were suffering from foot-and-mouth disease; what was the total number of animals on this farm ultimately affected with the disease; whether any inquiry has since been held into the whole circumstances of this outbreak; and whether the two first-mentioned inspectors are still in the employment of the Board?

I cannot for one moment accept the suggestion that Messrs. Knight and Fairley correctly diagnosed the existence of foot-and-mouth disease on the farm referred to on the occasion when suspected disease was first reported. The hon. Member is not aware perhaps that Mr. Fairley is not a qualified veterinary surgeon and had never apparently seen a. case of foot-and-mouth disease prior to the outbreak confirmed by the Board's officers on the 15th instant. The circumstances affecting the case under consideration have been the subject of careful investigations by the Board's Chief Veterinary Officer, who is satisfied that the heifer which was the subject of the original report was not affected with foot-and-mouth disease. The animal had been slaughtered by the owner prior to the confirmation of the existence of disease on the 15th instant, and was found to be suffering from advanced tuberculosis. The total number of animals on the farm found to be affected was forty cattle, two sheep and forty-four pigs. The reply to the last paragraph of the question is in the affirmative, and I feel bound to. add that I think the hon. and gallant Member should not have made the implication which it contains without further knowledge than that which he possesses, for I am confident that if he had had such knowledge he would not have made it.

Is it not strange that two inspectors of the Board should go down there on the 2nd and fail to diagnose the disease, yet eight minutes afterwards a third veterinary surgeon should discover that the disease is there?

Between the 2nd and the 15th there was plenty of time for the disease to have occurred.

Orders of the Day

Business and Sittings of the House

May I ask the Prime Minister what business he proposes to take next week?

We shall not ask the House to sit on Monday next.

On Tuesday, we shall take the Report stage of the Money Resolution on the Government War Obligations and the Committee stage of the Indictments Bill, the Evidence (Amendment) Bill, and the Midwives (Scotland) Bill.

On Wednesday, we shall take the Second Reading of the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill and of the Government War Obligations Bill.

I will not commit myself as to Thursday.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Tuesday next."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

Before this Motion is accepted by the House, I should like to ask the Government whether they can give us an assurance that, by reverting to three days a week, which is implied by this Resolution, they are hopeful of being able to pass all their measures before Christmas? As I calculate it, there will be some difficulty in making out a time-table which will enable them to pass all their proposals without having some very late sittings. I think the expectation and hope of the House is that we should finish up the work of the Session, and adjourn before Christmas. Under the three days a week proposal there are twelve days before the 23rd, and if we revert later on to four days there are sixteen days. The Government have still a large number of Bills which will require a great deal of consideration at the hands of the House. There is the Finance Bill to begin with. The long time which has been taken in Committee justifies the expectation that at any rate three days will be required for the Report stage— probably more; I am putting it at the lowest estimate—and at least one day for the Third Reading. That makes four days, and I think the House will generally agree that that is a very low estimate-There is the Parliament and Registration Bill, which may give rise to some controversy.

We all share that hope, and judging from what we know of what the contents are supposed to be, I should say it would be a modest estimate to put four days for that—First Reading, Second Reading, Committee, and Third Reading. It may be that as the result of negotiations which we understand are going on, the Bill may be considerably altered. In that case I suppose four days would probably be more than sufficient. Then we have the Munitions Bill and the promised statement on munitions. Surely two days would not be an overestimate, and one for the statement. Then the Rent Bill, in addition to the stage to-day, might be put down for three additional days. There is the Volunteer Bill, too, which, I understand, will require at least two days. It was introduced in another place by a private Member, and the Government have promised to star it.

I am glad if I am misinformed on that point. It is not proposed to proceed with the Volunteer Bill?

The representative of the Government in the House of Lords gave an assurance that the Government would assist its passage through all its stages. However, if that is proceeded with, two days; if not, those are two days to spare. Then a full and ample statement is to be made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to American securities, and there is to be a full opportunity for discussion. I do not think there will be much left of that day. I understand the right hon. Gentleman does not anticipate at this moment that a Bill will be required. However, if it is, probably the statement he makes will cover the time which will be required for the various stages. Then we have the War Loan Obligations Bill. It is not too much to put two days down for all its stages. Then there is the promise to-day of an opportunity for any subject on which the general sense of the House thinks there ought to be a debate, and there will probably be a general desire for a debate on the Near East before we adjourn. Then there will be one day for the Adjournment. I do not think I have overstated any of the time which might reasonably be asked. That makes twenty-one days between now and Christmas Eve. I have allowed nothing for the day for which, I understand, a wish was expressed for a debate on the enormous waste that is going on at present, and I have allowed no time whatever for a discussion on what, I presume, would be the Report which will be made to the House on the result of Lord Derby's recruiting campaign. I am sure the Government do not anticipate that we are going to adjourn over Christmas without having some information on that subject. I think the House of Commons is the place where that statement ought to be made. Therefore it seems to me that if we are to sit only three days a week certain things may happen. We may have to abandon some of the proposals of the Government, we may have to postpone them or we may have to sit very late at night in order to carry them. As the legislation is ready the business on Tuesday could be taken on Monday quite well, and I had rather the House sat an extra day in the week, and, if we have any time to spare later on in the Session, that we should utilise it in such a way as the Government thought proper or we might adjourn a few days before Christmas. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us an assurance that we shall be able to discuss all the Government proposals without the necessity of late sittings if we accept the Motion.

I wish to associate myself with the observations of my right hon. Friend, and to emphasise the point that at all events the country would expect the House to deal with Lord Derby's Report as soon as ever it is presented. What is the position in which we stand? The time-table is already very fully occupied. When my right hon. Friend gave three days for the Report stage of the Finance Bill I do not think he was aware that nearly all the contentious parts of the Bill have been postponed till the Report stage. It was very persistently opposed on the Committee stage by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lough) and his friends, and I understand they have threatened like opposition on the Report stage. That being so, it will probably take nearer a week than three days. The House is entitled to demand what is going to be the position in regard to the question of recruiting. Are we going so to arrange our business that we shall be able to deal promptly and at once with Lord Derby's Report? Will the Prime Minister give a pledge that if it necessitates legislation Parliament will be called together at once, and we shall only adjourn over Christmas day? Are we going to adjourn at Christmas till February, or till late in January? If so, it means hanging up the whole of this important matter. Seeing what the Government did last August—they took no steps even to keep up the supply of reserves for the Army—it would be very wrong to allow them to adjourn over Christmas without having dealt at once with this Report, which is so essential to the safety of the Empire.

I think the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Baronet have rather exaggerated the length of the Report stage of the Finance Bill. It is quite true that a very large number of matters were postponed to the Report stage, but nearly all of them were postponed at the request of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who undertook to meet the views which his opponents had raised. There is no reason to suppose that he will not do what he said, and under these circumstances I do not think the Report stage will take so long as the right hon. Gentleman anticipates. On the other hand, of course, there is a number of Bills which have to be passed and the time is very short. Much the simplest way would be, when we get near Christmas and the Government find they cannot pass their Bills, to abandon them and bring them up next Session. Everyone would be content. I throw out the suggestion before the right hon. Gentleman gets up.

I would ask my right hon. Friend, with regard to the Parliament and Registration Bill, if he can give an interval of two or three days between the introduction and the Second Reading, in order that hon. Members may be able to consult their constituents and send the Bill down to their agents?

I quite agree with the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) in regard to what he has said as to the Report stage of the Finance Bill. So far as I have been aware, there has been no desire to obstruct in any possible manner during the Debates on that Bill. I do not wish to make any exceptions. There are, how- ever, undoubtedly a great many matters which are left unsettled, and though there will be no desire to prolong the Debates, I think it extremely likely that the estimate of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Dalziel) will prove to be correct when the Report stage comes on. My object in rising is to call attention to the fact that the right hon. Gentleman, in his exhaustive list, seems to have omitted one matter which ought to be considered by the House before they return to the three-days per week programme. There has always been an understanding that any matter of importance which it is desired by the House should be debated should have a day. If we agree to this Motion now, we are certain to be met with the statement later that it is so close to Christmas that, although there may be a general desire, it may be quite impossible for the Government to find that day. I only want to indicate one matter which certainly must be discussed before Christmas, and that is the commercial policy of this country during the War in relation to private and national expenditure. I merely put it in these general words.

I have no desire to indicate anything in the nature of a fiscal Debate, but there is no doubt that whatever effective steps are to be taken to curtail our private and national expenditure must be considered and debated before Christmas, in order that any Debate on this vital question in this House may be reflected in whatever measures the Government take in the next Finance Bill. Therefore, I think we shall be doing very ill the duties we owe to the country if we agree to the proposition of a three-days per week business programme, and we are told afterwards that on the vital question on which possibly hangs loss or victory in this War, we have not had time in the House of Commons to give a single day to debate it, or to try to throw any light on the subject from the various points of view of different Members, all of whom, I am sure, will concentrate their attention on the one question as to what steps ought to be taken to ensure victory in this War, no matter whether they are fiscal, or any other steps.

I do not quite understand why these questions should be raised in regard to the Motion now before the House. The Motion is simply that the House should not sit on Mon-day next. There is no question of bind- ing us to three days sittings during the rest of the Session. It is simply a question of the business to be taken next week. In regard to the two important matters that have been mentioned, the Report stage of the Finance Bill and the Munitions Bill, I am quite satisfied, from what I hear, that it is much better now in the interests of agreement, and of the saving of time, that there should be a certain amount of delay before we again approach them in this House. The hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) has said that in regard to the Finance Bill, by allowing that reasonable interval it will not only curtail discussion, but help us to arrive at an agreement. I believe the same in regard to the Munitions Bill. Although I do not think it is relevant to this Motion, I must enter a caveat against the time programme sketched out by the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel). It will not take anything like the amount of time that he thinks is necessary for full and ample discussion of these matters. There is no intention on the part of the Government in any way to curtail or limit the opportunities of the House for discussion. In regard to this particular week I am quite sure that we shall not only be well justified, but well advised if we confine ourselves to three days. In regard to the various points put by two hon. Members and the hon. Member below the Gangway (Mr. Peto), the House may be quite sure that before we adjourn ample opportunity will be given for their consideration.

I would not like to commit myself to two or three days, but there will be time given.

Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill

I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to restrict, in connection with the present War, the increase of the rent of small dwelling-houses in certain areas and the increase of the rate of interest on and the calling in of securities on such dwelling-houses."

As the House is aware, the Bill which I have the honour now to beg leave to introduce proposes to deal with a question which has caused us considerable anxiety for some little time. The Government, as I have indicated in answer to questions on more than one occasion, have made considerable inquiries throughout the United Kingdom about the difficulties which, it is alleged, have arisen in connection with the rents of small tenements. Having studied all these reports very carefully myself, I can now say that, however urgent or pressing the question may be in certain districts, these inquiries have resulted in, I think, making it clear that, happily—and I am sure we shall all rejoice that it is so—this policy of rent-raising has not been universal, and has not been what one may call very widespread. That, I think, is a matter of congratulation, because whatever differences of opinion there may be as to the necessity of rent-raising in these times, or as to the justice and wisdom of it in certain circumstances, I am convinced that we shall all agree that everybody ought to strain every nerve to avoid adding to the burdens of those who are the least able to bear the special burdens created by a period of war. Although it is true that this movement is not general in the country, and although it is true that it is, I believe, limited to a certain number of special areas, yet, where it exists, it constitutes a very grievous and very serious burden upon those who are the least able to bear any additional burdens as the result of war.

4.0 P.M.

I do not disguise the fact that if it were not for special circumstances, and if it were not for the fact that we are at war, and that therefore practically all our legislation must be of an exceptional character and must be governed by that main condition, I do not think I should propose legislation of this kind, and I do not think the Government would propose it, because, while it is not difficult to arrive fairly accurately at the measure of the evil existing, and while it is not difficult to find a remedy for that particular trouble, it is very difficult to feel confident that in your remedy, and in carrying out your remedy, you may not create some fresh difficulty which may be even more injurious to the people mainly concerned than the trouble under which they are suffering at the moment. The whole question of the provision of housing accommodation for the working classes, is so difficult, so complicated, and so closely bound up with many other commercial questions, notably the value of money and the borrowing of money, that one approaches it with very great anxiety, lest, as I say, in removing one evil you may, by inadvertence, set up another. This trouble about rent raising and accommodation has been specially felt in some of our munition areas. There, and elsewhere, it is no exaggeration to say that it has produced a very deep feeling of bitterness and resentment, and that where the grievance exists you will find masses of people holding tenaciously to the view that the minority who happen to own houses, are taking advantage of war time to exploit the War for their own benefit. The existence of that feeling is a danger to society, and ought to be removed, if it can be fairly and justly removed. It is said by those who think that legislation is unnecessary that in the munitions areas the workers are earning such very high wages at this moment that an increase in the cost of housing accommodation is not material. I do not think, in the first instance, that an argument based on the rate of wages is a fair one to apply to the rent of houses. So far as I know, in no other class of society, and with reference to no class of houses, is the rent fixed in accordance with the income of the person who rents the house. The rent is supposed to be the amount which will give a fair return to the person who built or owns the house, but it is open to a tenant to rent any house which he can afford to pay for. Very often the person who rents the house is better off than the person who lets it. Therefore, any argument based on the wages which these men are receiving would be a very dangerous one and might turn out to be a two-edged sword.

Apart from that aspect of the case it is no answer to the complaint that in munition areas wages are much higher, because munition areas include a very large number of people who have not had any increase; in their wages as a result of munitions production, and yet are face to face with this special difficulty that the development of the production of munitions and the consequent necessity of providing people with houses has resulted in over-crowding these urban districts with workers; the result being that not only are these workers called upon to pay an increased rental, but that others which are not getting the benefit, which they are getting, are called upon to suffer also from the disturbance of social conditions and this interference with the natural provision of accommodation. Another argument justifying special legislation at this moment is not merely the fact that there has been an increase of rent, not merely the fact that this cannot be met by referring to the wages of the occupier, but another point of vital importance is that in ordinary circumstances in normal times in some parts of the country, as we know, there has been for a long time a difficulty in getting housing accommodation for the working classes at rents which are within their reach. But during these years it has always been possible for Parliament, for the local authorities and for various bodies and associations, and for individuals, to meet this difficulty, at all events partially, by the continuous erection of fresh accommodation and new houses. The whole of that is stopped—stopped absolutely—by the War. It is not stopped by any slackening of desire or because there is less need or less enterprise on the part of building societies or any of those bodies or individuals who have hitherto, so much to their credit, improved the housing supply of the country, but because the War has produced a condition of things this year, owing to lack of money, which makes it absolutely impossible for the building operations to be continued, and the difficulty not only arises through the lack of money, but also owing to the lack of labour, inasmuch as we are bound to do all we can to put labour into those fields of production which are most essential to the country in a time of war.

In consequence of those two causes, both directly attributable to the War, you cannot apply to this question of insufficient and unsatisfactory housing accommodation the remedy which is available in peace time. Therefore, I think that I have said enough to justify the Government in taking steps which, in their opinion, are the best remedy on the whole for dealing with this difficulty. I have received in the course of the last two or three weeks a great many representations from all over the country. I have received a great many deputations and had a great many interviews. Perhaps the most interesting deputation was that which I saw a short time ago. It was a body of gentlemen representing both the owners and the tenants. The House may forgive me if I use simple familiar terms in a different relationship when I say that this deputation represented the most Tory opinion on the side of the owners and the most advanced opinion on the side of those who were desiring to deal with the ownership question in a particular way. Therefore they were a very representative deputation, and they presented their case to me and assured me that if we acted somewhat on those lines they would see no reason to dispute the justice of our action. The other day, in the City of London, a great meeting was held. It was promoted by the Owners' Association, and Mr. Edward Evans, who is president of that association in London, representing, I believe, £100,000,000 worth of property, and who has acted with great kindness, ability, and foresight during the last few days, worked very hard—I desire to thank him for what he has done—in order, if possible, to remove by private influence and intervention any cause for legislation.

He stated at the end of his speech the action which in his view should follow. He made three suggestions. He said that landlords must be content with the rents which they were getting immediately before the War. Mortgagees must be content with the interest which they were receiving before the War. Governing bodies of all descriptions must not during the War spend more money than was absolutely necessary. In regard to the third of his suggestions, which has nothing to do with this Bill, I can say that every effort has been, is being, and will be made by my Department to secure the strictest economy in regard to local expenditure, and I have every reason to believe that in the immediate future there will be satisfactory results in this respect, and that it will be found that great trouble has been taken to keep down local expenditure and avoid burdens in reference to those questions, so that the expenditure of public-money will not be heavier than is absolutely consistent with meeting the everyday requirements of the people. Therefore what the Government propose to do in this emergency and exceptional legislation is to deal with the rent question and the interest on mortgage. Their proposals will be confined to property of a particular character, which I will describe, and the powers of this Bill will be enforced by Order in Council over areas specially selected. They are described in the Bill. The areas to which the Bill can be applied by Order in Council are the Administrative County of London or any borough or urban district with a population exceeding 100,000, or any area where, owing to the influx of population or any other circumstances attributable to the present War, there is insufficient housing accommodation.

This Bill applies to Scotland and to Ireland with slight variations to which I will refer. The figure as regards population which applies to England and Scotland does not apply to Ireland, where the population is taken as 25,000. The changes which make the Bill applicable to Scotland and Ireland, which are in a Clause at the end of the Bill, are really slight. There are other special conditions which apply to the whole of the United Kingdom.

They are alternative. I will read the exact words: "It shall be lawful for His Majesty's Government by Order in Council to prescribe the areas to which, having regard to conditions arising out of the present War, the provisions of this Act shall apply." These provisions shall apply to no area other than the Administrative County of London, or any borough or urban district with a population exceeding 100,000, or any area where, owing to the influx of population or other circumstances attributable to the present War, there is a dearth of accommodation. The rental is fixed at ÂŁ30 per year for London, and ÂŁ21 for the rest of the United Kingdom.

The rental of property which will come within the scope of this Bill?

Yes. I think that my hon. Friends will do well to wait to see these minor details. I do not want to give any answer which would in any way mislead them, and I would rather treat of general principles. I hope that the Bill will be in the hands of Members very soon—perhaps to-morrow or at the latest by Tuesday—then they will see as to these minor details. The rent which, as I have said, is supposed to be the pre-war rent for the purposes of this Bill, is called the standard rent, and the effect of the Order in Council will be to make the difference between the pre-war or standard rent, and the amount to which it has been raised since the War, irrecoverable, by the issue of the Order.

made an observation which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.

That would be to make it retrospective, and in a great many cases there might be great injustice. I have said that it will apply also to interest on mortgages. The owners of the houses, with many of whom I discussed this matter, urged that they must raise the rents, because rates and taxes are up, repairs are up, and also the interest on mortgages. Where fixed interest on mortgages must be affected, if you are going to deal, as we now propose to deal, with rents, as regards taxes and rates I do not hesitate to say, what I believe is the view of the Government and the view of the majority of people, that in reference to taxes anything which enables the individual to push his burdens of the War on to other shoulders, or enables him to do anything of that kind, ought to be rendered impossible. The one object of the Government, indeed of everybody, is that these burdens shall be so far as possible evenly distributed. I am not going into the general question, but I say that the throwing of any portion of this taxation on to those below, who are presumably less able to bear it, is a reason which ought not to be admitted in regard to legislation of this sort. As regards the rates, two things ought to be borne in mind. I do not think it is likely that the rates will be raised, and another most important consideration in the vast majority of areas where legislation of this kind will apply is that the rates are paid on the compounding principle. The effect of this is that the owner pays under a system which gives him a very large reduction in the amount he has to pay. Surely it is not fair that the owners should have the advantage of this composition in paying the rates, and at the same time say that they are justified in increasing the rents at a time when the rates are more likely to fall than rise.

As to interest on mortgage, it is a different question. No doubt it does seem an injustice to say to the owners of property that we are going to interfere with their right to do what they like with their property, that we are going to interfere with contracts, that we are going to commit all the heinous crimes which the junior Member for the City of London is so fond of describing—that we are going to do all these things, and that yet we are going to leave the owners, who are asking for these increased rents, exposed to an additional charge that they have to pay as interest on mortgages. They say, "If you interfere with the one you should interfere with the other." That was the argument put before us by the deputation from both sides, and it seems to the Government no more than just. Although I regret as much as anybody interference with the ordinary course of business, particularly business of this kind, I myself believe it is impossible to say to the owner he shall not charge an increased rent unless we are prepared to say to those who lend money on this property, and who are asking now for a larger rate of interest than they got before the War, "We do allow one exception—that is, where there has been a structural alteration or an improvement in the property we shall allow 6 per cent. to be charged on the total outlay." It is not necessary to pay 6 per cent., but that is the maximum that can be charged. I have said that it will be by Order in Council, to be issued, of course, through the various areas of the three countries. There are provisions against evasion by means of fines or other charges of that kind. There is a provision against foreclosure—restrictions are imposed upon foreclosure—and there is a definition of mortgage as an ordinary mortgage by deed, not an equitable mortgage, or charge to be deposited, title deeds, or otherwise. It is intended to make the Bill apply to what, I believe, are called private or fixed mortgages, and not to deal with those advances which are of a temporary character and which are never intended to be regarded as permanent, nor in respect of charges which in normal times vary from time to time. These do not come within the purview of the Bill.

My right hon. Friend says it is the only good thing in the Bill. I hope I have made the provision clear; and I have only to say at once that the Government do not pretend that this Bill is perfect. It fell to my lot to suggest to the Prime Minister, who has been good enough to grant my request that I should introduce a Bill to-day in this form, and thus enable the House to express some views upon it before the measure is printed; and I shall be grateful to hon. Members for suggestions with regard to the details to which I have referred. We do not put forward legislation which can be defended on logical and economic grounds, but on what I venture to say is a higher ground than either, namely, to prevent what is really felt to be an injustice and a burden by those who in time of war feel anything of the kind more than any other class of the community. I have shown that you cannot pretend that those burdens fall only on those who are better off to-day than before. In each area you will find a large number of people who are not a long way better off, and who are yet called upon to pay this extra rent. We have had to bear, and are bearing to-day, a common burden of suffering and sorrow, and I believe it is a mere truism to say that this War and its consequences have brought closer together than ever before the castle and the cottage. The feeling throughout the country is not only creditable to our people, and one of which we have every right to be proud, but I believe that those who come afterwards will look upon the feeling now being manifested by our people as one reflecting great honour on this generation. I trust we shall do nothing to alter that feeling, nothing which would give our people the idea that they are being taken advantage of at a moment like this. In introducing this Bill, I ask the House to give it friendly consideration, and we shall be glad to hear any suggestion which hon. Members may have to make. We honestly propose it with the single-minded desire to deal with the real grievance and difficulty with such even handed justice as is possible in the circumstances.

I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman has said as to the evil with which this Bill is intended to deal. The result of inquiries, he has told us, is that the raising of rents is not widely spread—the movement is not general; but where it does exist, it is of a very serious character. With that I think it will not be difficult for any one of us to agree. The trouble extends to the munitions area, and the idea which is widely spread is that advantage has been taken of the War, and of the increase of wages in certain places, to enable the landlords in those districts to transfer the burdens of the War which naturally fall upon them as far as possible to their tenants That is a thing with which I for one certainly have no sympathy whatever, and within the lines under which my right hon. Friend proposes to proceed, I am bound to say that I think we should give to his proposal, when we have had the opportunity of examining his Bill, impartial and fair consideration to say the least. Another argument which my right hon. Friend put forward in support of the Bill was that the provision of new houses has been largely stopped by the War, partly from the want of means, but still more by the more important fact of the absence of the necessary labour which is required for their provision. That is one of those incidents connected with the introduction of this Bill which shows at once that it is a measure not of an ordinary character but one entirely exceptional, and also entirely due to the circumstances which have arisen in consequence of the War.

With regard to the question of rents, my right hon. Friend pointed out that in his opinion landlords must be content, or ought to be content, during the War with the rents which they received before the War. The same argument would also apply to mortgagees, who should be content, pending the War, with the interest they received previous to it. I think it is a little difficult to oppose a proposition of that kind if the other with regard to the raising of rents is agreed to. We have all of us, I think, got to bear in mind that this is, as I understand it, purely an emergency measure due to the War, a measure of which, except for these circumstances, the right hon. Gentleman himself thought it extremely unlikely he would have undertaken the charge. It is to be carried out by Order in Council, which will provide that in certain specified districts, in boroughs over a certain size, and in urban districts which have been invaded by a great additional accession of labour, the Order is to have effect. The burden of the War—and this is one of its objects—is to be as evenly distributed as possible. My right hon. Friend did not say much about country districts. I understand, and indeed I know, that the rental, as a general rule, in country districts is not very often, and indeed very rarely, raised. Certainly, so far as my own experience goes, the rental of landed estates, as a general rule, provides nothing more, even if it always provides that, than a very poor return as interest upon the capital which has been spent on those estates. In that connection I always remember what a very old friend of mine, Lord St. Aldwyn, once said to me on the subject. Speaking at a time of great agricultural depression, he said to me, "If anybody will only give me what I have spent myself out of my own pocket on improvements on my estates, he may have the whole of the fee simple of my estates for nothing." That was a statement made by a landlord who had great experience and knowledge of landed estates, and I believe that the statement he made on that occasion was no exaggeration whatever. Therefore I hope, when we come to see the Bill, that country districts, at all events, will be as leniently treated as may be possible. We shall await the Bill with great interest, and, speaking for myself only—for I have not had the opportunity of consulting others— I can assure him that it will receive a fair and most impartial consideration.

I think the occasion to-day is not one for long speeches, since I expect we will have ample opportunity next week, when we have examined the Bill, of dealing more in detail with it on the Second Reading. I desire to congratulate the Government on at last having dealt with what many of us have known for a long time to have been a very pressing trouble; and I also congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the manner as well as the matter of his speech. I know that in the forefront of his speech he adopted a rather apologetic tone. I take it that was because he had a vision of the opposition of the junior Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), but I think we may pass that by. The right hon. Gentleman said a little later on that the Member for the City was going to oppose the Bill. That, to my mind, is one of the best recommendations of the Bill. I am rather glad to hear that statement, because, apart from what the right hon. Gentleman said, it convinces me that at last the Government have really made up their minds to deal with this question in a practical and drastic manner. As to the scope of the Bill, first of all, let me say a word as to the reasons why the Bill is introduced. The right hon. Gentleman said, as far as I understood him, that there had been only exceptional cases of the raising of rents, and he mentioned Mr. Evans, a gentleman representing ÂŁ100,000,000 worth of property here in London, and the attitude he had taken up. I am very glad to endorse all that has been said by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to Mr. Evans, as to his very fine attitude on the question. I venture to say, if the attitude adopted by that gentleman had been adopted by the landlords of Glasgow in particular, and of Dundee and other places that I might mention, possibly this Bill would not have been necessary. I rather dissent from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the raising of rents has not been general. I know it has been general in those places where there was any idea in the minds of owners of property that wages had been increased. Probably they had it in their minds that a number of people were getting increased wages, and that, therefore, they might have a share of those increased wages in the way of increased rents. But, as the right hon. Gentleman has truly pointed out, even in those areas, although it is quite true that a considerable number of people have been earning high wages and increased amounts for overtime, yet those people have figured largely in the public mind because of that fact, and, apart altogether from them, there have been large numbers of people who have not had any increased wages at all, and upon whom this burden of increased rents has fallen very heavily.

Coming to the proposals of the Bill, so far as I understand them, I can only say that they appear to me to be very fair. They embody two principles for which we have been contending for a long time. The first is, that the rent shall be upon the prewar basis; and the other, that the landlord, although it is a matter that does not concern the tenant, shall have the advantage of paying no increased interest upon his bonds, where there are such. I am very glad those principles are in the Bill, and I hope that they are not encumbered by any qualifying considerations. In that event, the Bill on those two points will have my unqualified support. In regard to population basis, I am a little in a quandary. The right hon. Gentleman says that the basis is to be 100,000 of population, and also that the Bill will apply to those places where there is a shortage proved in consequence of the War, as I understood him.

A population of 100,000 constitutes a very large town, and there are some towns where there may be no shortage directly traceable to the War, but where rents have considerably increased. To my mind this provision affords a loophole, which I was sorry to note in his speech, and I can only hope that the Bill in that respect will turn out a little better than the speech. For instance, I do not know, speaking offhand, what the population of Leith may be. I rather think it is under 100,000. Leith is practically part of Edinburgh, and is just on the outskirts. I have no direct evidence about it in this matter of rents, or at least I do not remember, but an hon. Friend sitting near tells me now that rents have gone up there. Without any direct evidence, I would take it upon myself to say, that rents had very considerably increased at Leith during the War period. Then there are other towns in like position. Clydebank is clearly a place where the words of the right hon. Gentleman would apply, as it is full of Government works. The same applies to Barrow. The remark of the right hon. Gentleman about the Bill applying to places where the shortage was due to the War, will apply to Clydebank and Barrow, but will not apply to Leith. There are other places where the Bill will probably not apply, and I can only again hope that in this respect the Bill itself will be rather better than as it has been foreshadowed by the right hon. Gentleman.

In regard to rentals, I understand that the Bill is to apply in Scotland, and I am only concerned now with Scotland, to houses of under ÂŁ21 per year rental. I would not like to commit myself, but I rather think that that is a fairly satisfactory line. It applies a principle, which has already been embodied in legislation. The House Letting Bill of some four or five years ago, I think, adopted the same point as the dividing line between what were called in that Bill small houses, and other houses, to which that Bill did not apply. Therefore, as a matter of administrative convenience, it is a good thing to have taken that same point, and in addition I think that ÂŁ21 rental fairly well covers all the working-class houses, at all events outside Glasgow. There may be some grounds for consideration of making a difference in Glasgow. I do not know, and I am not going to say now, but on the whole I should say that ÂŁ21 is fairly satisfactory. I again congratulate the Government on having taken this step, and the right hon. Gentleman upon the Bill, and I desire to associate myself fully with the words he used before sitting down. I think it is a very great thing that the common suffering, and common trial, and common risk that is being borne by the people in this country is, at all events, having a little set-off in the way of the more kindly feeling which is being displayed, and which we are all so proud of at the present moment. I take it that this Bill is one of the evidences of that kindlier feeling, and I welcome it on that account, and, as well as on other grounds, I bespeak for it a speedy passage.

I am sure my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board will forgive me when I say that, in my opinion, this Bill violates all the principles of political economy. The right hon. Gentleman agrees with me in that, because he said that the Bill cannot be defended on economic ground. Therefore as we are both agreed on that point, there is no necessity for me to pursue it any further. One of the reasons my right hon. Friend gives for bringing in this Bill is that rents have not been raised generally in the country. That does not seem to me to be a very good reason for bringing in the Bill. If this was an evil which was widely spread all over the country, presuming that it is an evil, there might be something to be said for bringing in a Bill to remedy it. But if it is an evil which is not widely spread, and in the words of the right hon. Gentleman "not general all over the country," then I think he has condemned his own Bill. First of all he says that it cannot be defended on economic grounds, and then that the evil which it is supposed to remedy is neither general nor widespread, my right hon. Friend gave the further reason that building had stopped. It is legislation of this sort which has stopped building, and there are other reasons, and one is high wages. I am sorry the hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes), having delivered his oration, has departed. I should have liked to have pointed out that one of the reasons for increasing rents and for shortage of houses is high wages. The next is high prices of materials; and the next is the Finance Act of 1909. Naturally people will not invest their money in house property if they think that, under the Finance Act of 1909, or under legislation of this sort, they are going to be mulcted of what is their own, and of what is due to them. My right hon. Friend also proposes to limit any rise in the rate of interest on mortgages. Is that wise?

I am glad that he is on my side, and that I am not standing alone in the view I am enunciating. I am not sure that the view I hold is not fairly widely held in the House. As I was saying, I am not at all sure that it is wise to limit the rate of interest on mortgages. No doubt at the commencement of the War there was a considerable quantity of money lent on mortgage at 4 per cent., or perhaps 4¼ per cent. The Government themselves are paying 5 per cent. for mortgage. The Government will take six months, three months, or year bills—no finer security was ever supposed to exist in the City of London or elsewhere —at 5 per cent. Therefore the man who has lent his money on mortgage is in this position: If he had kept the money free or had put it on deposit at the bank, he could have taken advantage of the Government's terms of 5 per cent.; but because he invested it in mortgages at a comparatively low rate of interest he is not to take advantage of the rise in the value of money while every other person in the country can do so. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that in the days of old, especially in 1896, when the value of money was very low, and London County Council 2½ per Cent. Stock stood at over 100, mortgagors who were paying 3¼ or 4 per cent. said that they must have a lower rate of interest. If they could do that when there was a fall in the value of money, why, when there is a rise, should they take advantage of it?

I think there would have been something to be said for a Bill somewhat on these lines: Political economy must be relegated to Saturn because we are at war, and no one must take advantage of our being at war to gain any pecuniary advantage for himself. What would have happened if that had been done? Where would the trade unions and the working men's wages be? Who are the people who have taken advantage of the fact that we are at war and are continuing to do so? The working men! They have done it more than any other class. Yet this very class whose wages have been doubled and, in some cases, more than doubled, come down and say, "We refuse to pay a small increase in our house rent." It seems to me perfectly absurd, and I wonder that the representatives of the trade unions, after having said that their particular protégés must receive enormous increases in wages have the courage to say that nobody else is to have any increase on the article which they sell. I cannot see any justification for it. It only confirms my view that the Socialistic tendencies of a certain hon. Gentleman opposite, if carried out, would ruin the country in a very short time. I agree with one thing said by the hon. Member for Blackfriars, that the present is not the moment for long speeches, and that, except for a general criticism such as I have made, we had better defer our criticisms until we see the Bill. I earnestly hope, however, that the right hon. Gentleman will remember the old days when he was a prominent supporter of the Tory party, and that he will not allow his new associations to influence him too much. After all, original opinions are generally the best. I trust that we may perhaps have some modification of the Bill when we get to the Second Reading.

I rise to offer my congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman for the able way in which he introduced this Bill, and for the generous spirit which ran through his speech. I cannot propose under any circumstances to follow the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury). That I must leave to abler hands. The need for a Bill of this kind has been demonstrated this afternoon. When the right hon. Gentleman says that the raising of rents is not general, I begin to ask myself what is general, seeing that nearly every part of the United Kingdom has sent letters and petitions of protest with regard to the raising of rents. I have before me at the moment the names of Halifax, Barrow, Market Harborough, Kent, Letchford, Plumstead, Bury St. Edmunds, Cheshire, East Ham, Poplar, Woolwich, Newcastle, Canning Town, Plaistow, Forest Gate, Ilford, Seven Kings, Stoke Newington, Acton, and other towns all over the place. Surely when one covers North, South, East and West it goes without saying that the right hon. Gentleman will find on further investigation that complaints against the raising of rents are general up and down the land. Many of the Clauses as described in the statement of the right hon. Gentleman we shall undoubtedly see to better advantage when the Bill is in our hands. I, personally, have been inundated with hundreds of letters and scores of petitions from all parts of the Kingdom. Only yesterday I received from Brixton a petition from 1,200 tenants on one estate where all the rents have been put up 6d., 1s., or more, with notice to quit if they do not like to pay the increase. Furthermore, I know in my own district how grave the situation is, what a lot of dissatisfaction is being caused, and how much unrest is taking place amongst the people who hold small tenements. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider the advisability of urging the Home Office to take some step to prevent these people, who in some of the districts have to appear at the County Court one day next week, from being ejected.

I try also to recognise the difficulty which owners of property have with regard to their mortgages. They are faced with additional taxation and additional cost of repairs—though I think this point has been somewhat exaggerated. But it was never intended that the taxation of the landlords should be a source of profit in the shape of additional rent. But this is what has happened in many cases, and, unless it. is rectified, instead of the landlords bearing their share of the cost of the War, as was intended by the tax, they will be better off because of the War, and the unfortunate tenant will be mulcted in the landlord's share as well as his own. The tenants already pay an additional tax on all the commodities of life used in their own homes—a tax which is disproportionate, I think, to the wages which many of them earn. At the same time, I have no desire to be unfair to the landlords who depend for a livelihood on such property and let their houses at an actual loss. I recognise the difficulty in which many of them are placed owing to the fact that they have borrowed money on their property, the interest on which money has to be paid before any margin is left for themselves. With regard to that, I have letters in my possession which any hon. Member can see; many of them are marked "Private." [Laughter.] I do not mind. When people do not want to give themselves away they always mark their letters "Private." Many of the mortgagors have been warned that their interest will be from ½ to 1½ per cent. more. The difficulties are greatly enhanced all over the country. Mortgagors are being pressed either to pay the extra 1 or 1½ per cent. or the mortgages will be foreclosed and they will possibly lose their property.

Therefore I think it is absolutely necessary to deal with the question of mortgage interest concurrently with the question of rent, as I believe the right hon. Gentleman intends to do in his Bill. Some protection should be afforded to borrowers—and I think there will be in the Bill—enabling them to postpone their repayments until the War is over, and fixing the rate of interest at the point at which it stood in July, 1914. If this is done it will remove every shadow of excuse for the landlord to raise the rent, but unless it is done injustice may be done to the landlord. All I ask is that justice should be done to all parties concerned, that everybody should be treated on the same footing, that mortgagees should not be permitted to raise their rate of interest, that landlords should not be permitted to raise the rent, and that we should place things where they were in July, 1914, until the War is over. I heard the question of wages mentioned. If these people had invested their money in stocks and shares in the City, and not in house property, and they did not receive any dividend, they could not put it on the manager of the company or corporation, and ask him to pay their dividend. Let the landlords be patriotic in this direction. Let them play the same game towards their tenants as they would towards the companies in which they had invested their money, where, if the directors ran away and bolted with the lot, they would get nothing. The moment anything is done in this House to protect the people you always find that the interest is up against the working man, because they are afraid of losing about 2½ per cent. I am prepared to agree to any reasonable measure, although I shall suffer as much as some of the other landlords in proportion. Therefore, I am not asking the House to agree to something by which I am not affected.

5.0 P.M.

As to rents not affecting the working man, I have in mind the case of a man who came from Philadelphia. He heard the call of his country, hearkened to it, gave up his job, paid his own passage, and came over to work in Woolwich Arsenal. The moment he took a house on the south side of the Thames the landlord, finding he was working in the Arsenal and earning good money, put his rent up 2s. a week. The man appealed to his superior at the Arsenal, but could get no help. He appealed to the Munitions Department, but could get no help. The man has now left the Arsenal, sold up everything, and gone back to Philadelphia—a Britisher disgusted with the treatment he has received in his own country. Then people say we ought not to try to help or advise these people with regard to their rents. My advice to the people outside is "Don't pay," that is all. If we get this Bill passed through the House, as I trust we shall in the next few days, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman, despite what his Friends may say about his having changed his politics or something else, will look back upon it as one of the crowning acts of his political life, and he will feel the greatest joy of having helped to remove from the hearts and lives of these poor working people this burden of extra rent. I am certain that the Bill will have a wonderful effect upon recruiting in the country. Wherever we go we are being told that men will not enlist until they know what sort of terms the "old woman" is going to receive from the landlord. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will live to see that this Bill becomes the law of the land. If he does he will earn the lasting gratitude of the working classes, and I venture heartily to support him.

As one who is engaged largely in this matter, I take this opportunity of offering my congratulations, and I believe the congratulations of a large number of property owners in the metropolis, to the right hon. Gentleman on the action he has taken. The so-called property owners, that is owners who have this small class of property, will also be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his proposed protection against an increased rate on their mortgages, and the proscription upon foreclosure. The hon. Baronet, the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), just now dealt, rather cheaply I thought, with the subject. The hon. Baronet should remember that the City of London, at the outbreak of War, was given a very considerable amount of protection, and a considerable amount of emergency legislation. Surely, then, property owners—and in that class I include those who are probably the very largest portion of them, those who are owners of equities of redemption in this industrial class of property—above all, at such a time as this should have protection. I think the hon. Baronet was really only dealing lightly and jokingly with it. I do not believe he was serious, because his kindness of heart would immediately prompt him to protect people from the possibility of having their equities of redemption mortgaged away.

The moratorium extended not only to the City, but to the whole country. Whatever advantage the City gained was gained by everyone else.

The moratorium came in very promptly to the assistance of the City of London, and of all sorts of people who deal there but it did not protect people, except in a distant way, who have to go to the County Court to protect themselves from foreclosure. I think, therefore, that the hon. Baronet is drawing a red herring across the path. I believe this Bill will give a considerable amount of satisfaction. There are people always ready to take advantage of the situation, but the majority of property owners are not grasping, grinding, people. They are reasonable people, and do not seek to take advantage of the situation; neither do they expect advantage to be taken of them by an increase in the rate of mortgages or by foreclosure. I would also remind the hon. Baronet that there is no question of market value with mortgagors. It is the price on the deed with them. It is the deed and nothing but the deed that has to be met, and therefore the case is not altogether on a par with dealings in the City. To get back to the propositions in the Bill; the measure is not in force and there are many points on which we shall be pleased to be enlightened. I understand that in dealing with rents the right hon. Gentleman mean other than ground rents?

In all parts of the United Kingdom leases are always falling in. They would not be protected, and it would be necessary to put up some sort of machinery with which rents for these houses could be adjudicated upon and fixed at a fair pre-war standard. I am rather sorry that there should be a limitation in this Bill to particular areas such as London, boroughs of 100,000 population, and areas where the housing accommodation is inferior. I should have liked to see the right hon. Gentleman go the whole hog and do it throughout the length and breadth of the country. As to the rental I take it the ÂŁ30 in the Metropolis and the ÂŁ21 in other districts is exclusive of rates and taxes?

I think the right hon. Gentleman said something about the original rent being restored. I do not know whether he means, supposing the rent had been increased by 6d. or 1s. a week, to strike out that bargain and return to the rent of the pre-war period?

That would probably be a very complicated matter. As regards structural alterations at 6 per cent., this will no doubt give rise to discussion as to whether the rate is enough. The cost of labour and the cost of materials is unduly high, and in this class of property the wear and tear is very great. I am a little doubtful as to whether 6 per cent. is sufficient to give for repairs that have been carried out recently. I appreciate the measure which is foreshadowed, and the fact that it will give protection to a class of people who are often poor landlords and who deserve protection before any other class.

There is only one statement made by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London with which I find myself in agreement, and that is that it is very seldom that any good thing can be expected out of a Coalition Government. He suggested that the right hon. Gentleman who introduced this Bill was, in a political sense, going rapidly to the dogs, and being corrupted and undermined by his associates in this Government. Personally, I desire to offer my hearty congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman on the Bill he has introduced to-day. This measure has been considered by those of my colleagues who are at present in London, and I have been asked to enter a caveat at this stage on one point in the Bill, and on one point only. That is with regard to the population limit of 25,000. A great many munition works have been started all over Ireland, and nearly all of them in towns with a smaller population than 25,000. I can give the right hon. Gentleman one case, probably the most important munitions town we have in Ireland—Arklow—where the population is very much under this 25,000 limit.

I do not quite understand why this population limit is put in, if power is given to schedule every area. Why is a limit of 25,000 introduced at all? That is a point the right hon. Gentleman did not make quite clear. Then, again, there is another very important district well known to the Secretary to the Admiralty—Queenstown and Haulbowline— where very important naval work is going on all the time, and where the population has been largely increased since the outbreak of war. There again the population is under this limit. There is this further point to consider, and that is that the smaller the town the more likely are the landlords to raise the rent, and the more helpless are the people to resist the additional rates imposed upon them. Moreover, as the Chief Secretary is aware, there are many towns in Ireland in which we expect important munition work to be done during this War, and where it has been started, in which all the property is owned by one man. He can impose any rent whatever that he cares to make, and the people have no alternative. In a larger town—in a very large town—they have, of course, other houses to which they may possibly be able to go, but in these smaller towns owned by one landlord the people have no alternative but to submit. It is these small populations that require this exemption. The right hon. Gentleman invited suggestions. So far as we are concerned, we shall give him the most cordial and hearty support in putting this Bill on the Statute Book, but we hope that between now and the Second Reading of the Bill he will consider the possibility of revising that particular part very substantially, and so relieve us from the necessity of introducing any Amendments in the Committee stage.

It seems to me that this is an unjust and a necessary Bill. It is necessary because of the acute feeling that has arisen in many parts of the country regarding the exorbitant raising of rents. I do not believe that a Bill so drastic as this would have been necessary had the question been taken in hand by the Government six or more months ago when public feeling had not been stirred to the same extent, and that all the interests involved could have been treated with greater fairness. At the time when large bodies of population were being drafted into what are now called munitions areas this matter was brought before the Government, and all the satisfaction given at that time to those Members who called the attention of the Government to it was that it was receiving their consideration. Matters, in other words, were allowed to drift, and in consequence of the drifting we have had a situation so strained that last week there were disturbances in Glasgow—so serious that they were suppressed by the Press censorship, and the local proceedings in the Sheriff's Court there were affected to some extent by what was apparently the exercise of mob law. In these conditions legislation became necessary, and we have had hasty action on the part of the Government—and hasty action has necessarily brought injustice in its train. I, for one, think that landlords and mortgagees should not be the only people who are to be injured by the War. Apparently every other class of the community is entitled to gain. The grocer is entitled to sell his goods at high prices, even manufacturers of munitions are to get higher prices from the Government, and the munitions worker is to get higher wages. But landlords of small house property are not to get a higher rent, and the mortgagee on small house property is not to be entitled to raise the interest, although the Government itself has raised interest to other classes of investors. It is in both these respects that I think the injustice occurs.

Now the Government is placing the rent on the pre-war standard, altogether disregarding the question whether that is a. fair standard. In many parts of the country, where there has been this increase of rent, in the days before the War small property was being worked at a loss or at a very small return to the property owner. Is it fair, therefore, when the cost of everything else has gone up, to put him on the basis at which he was working before at a loss? I think the Government are entitled to check exorbitant increases, but where there is a moderate increase, not out of proportion to the cost of repairs, and so on, which the owner has to pay, or in the rate of interest which he has to pay, he should be entitled to that increase in his rent. I also think that the mortgagee was entitled to the fair increase of mortgage interest which was justified by the bargain he had made with the mortgagor. In this respect probably I am in a minority in the House in agreeing with the hon. Baronet opposite. In regard to mortgage property, we know that when money was cheap they had to submit to a reduction in the rate of interest. Now, when the cost of money has gone up, why should they not be entitled to a higher rate of interest? We are told that they get their money back, but are they sure of that? There are many cases where they have to sell, and where they find that the security will not realise the money lent. You will find that is the case in regard to nearly all the small house property. This Bill really means that every man who has invested his money in house property is not entitled to realise during the course of the War.

In a free market just now he could, if the Government did not pass this legislation.

I do not think the hon. Gentleman understands the point I am making. The question whether he gets his par value entirely depends whether the value in the market is equal to the money lent. If the mortgagor says he cannot pay the amount of the loan, the only remedy of the mortgagee, if he has to realise his security, is by sale, and in many cases a sale would not realise the amount of the money lent; so that in a large number of cases it is not true that he will always get his par value. I believe in many cases at the present time he could get his par value because of the higher rents that could be secured for that property, but we do not know that will be the condition of things at the end of the War. Probably a large proportion of the population, artificially brought together in these munition areas, will be dispersed, and there will be no demand for these houses. Then the mortgagee will not be able to get the par value. The mortgagor will refuse to pay. He will have to sell. Nobody will want a house, and he will not be able to get his money. I hold, in circumstances like these, that if the Government is going to interfere with the mortgagee, and say that at present he cannot realise his security and at present he will not be allowed to raise the interest on the mortgage, they should give him some security that, at the end of the War, should there be a fall in the value of the property, he will be entitled to par value. Why not? If you are going to interfere with the contract by legislation in this way, surely some guarantee should be given to the man who has lent the money. I know this seems an extraordinary doctrine, but because mortgagees are a small class in the community surely they are entitled to just treatment as well as people who can make their voices heard through their unions and other large organisations.

May I remind the hon. Member that under the first Section of the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1914, no mortgagee can foreclose or sell the property if the mortgagor satisfies the Court that his inability to pay interest is due to loss by the War?

Due to loss by the War; but you are here introducing a provision for the benefit of people who have not lost by the War, but many, indeed, have gained by the War. I quite agree that in cases where has been a loss by the War you are entitled to interfere for the protection of the loser, and that consequently another man might be called upon to share in the loss. But here you are not calling upon a man to share another man's loss, but you are calling upon him to lose possibly, in many cases, for the benefit of a man who has not lost at all, but has gained by the War. In these circumstances I do not think the exceptional treatment should be given. I think that there is a good case against limiting the mortgagee's right in this particular instance. You are only doing it in regard to one class of property. If the mortgagee has been lucky enough to invest his money in houses whose rental is over ÂŁ20 in the country and, I understand, ÂŁ30 in London, then he is entitled to raise his interest, and the middle-class man who rents the house or is the borrower of the money, whose wages may not have gone up, but whose position has deteriorated by the War, has to pay the increase in the rate of interest and he has to pay the increased rent. But in the other case, even although the tenant of the house has more money than he had before, the mortgagee is to suffer; he is to lose this rate of interest, and he is prevented altogether from realising his security, although others in the same position are entitled to realise. It is for that reason I say it is an unjust Bill; but I believe, under the conditions of public opinion at the present time, it is a necessary Bill. On the other hand, I believe that had the Government taken this matter in hand at an earlier stage, when they saw the tendency beginning, the great majority of tenants would have agreed to a moderate increase of rent, and that under those conditions the situation might have been saved and no injustice would have been done to any class of the community.

I do not think that anybody in any part of the House would argue that this is anything like a perfect Bill, or that it could not be riddled with criticism from one standpoint or another. Later on, in regard to what are details, we shall have an opportunity of putting down Amendments, if we think it necessary, dealing with matters like those of the population standard, the rental standard, and so on; but whether the Bill has been worked on strictly logical lines or not, or whether any Bill could be worked out on strictly logical lines, or lines which could not be criticised from any specific point of view, the fact is true that there is need for some measure of this character, and that there is a very clamant demand for such a measure. I would not have risen at all, because I should have been ready to wait for the details, if it had not been for the speech made by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. The hon. Baronet seemed to speak with some warmth about the Bill itself, but his warmth in that direction was nothing compared with his vigour when he spoke about the greed of trade unionists and workmen of the country. I want to say, first of all, that if the hon. Baronet will go back to the facts in regard to the workmen and the trade unionists of the country he would find that when the War first came they closed down every dispute and every strike, and for five or six months after the coming of the War there was no dispute of any size or any consequence in this country. It was due to the fact that other interests were not controlled that prices rose, and to-day we have food prices, at any rate, 40 per cent. higher in some directions than before the War. It was these things that led to the demand for increases on the part of the workpeople, because if there had been a larger measure of public control there would have been no demand of that kind put forward.

The hon. Baronet says, with regard to the mortgagee, that he should be free to take advantage of the present situation the same as anybody else; but, in point of fact, the workman to-day in regard to his wage is not free to take advantage of the situation. That is determined, first of all, by an Order in Council passed in an earlier part of this year, under which employers are forbidden to hold out the bribe of higher wages in order to lure workmen away from one establishment to another establishment. The same point is raised by the Munitions Act, under which the withholding of labour in order to secure an advance of wages is prohibited by law; and, in the second place, a workman is forbidden to leave one establishment to go to another establishment, no matter how much higher the wages he would get, except with the permission of his employer. If that is true with regard to workmen, there seems to be the greatest need for putting a limit on the power of the landlords and house-owners to raise rents to those who are so restricted themselves. It is often said that wages have gone up so high that there is no reason at all why landlords should not be able to raise rents in a corresponding degree. I hear many estimates of wages that are entirely exceptional, and one sometimes hears people speaking as if ÂŁ10 and ÂŁ12 a week were a sort of ordinary wage coming into the homes of the people in these days. Of course it is not the case. There are millions of people to whom no increase of wages has come at all. There are any number of the very poorest of the people, old age pensioners and the like, who have received no increase in their earnings, yet all those people are affected where there is increase of rent. The same thing holds true of any number of working-class homes where the bread-winner has joined the Colours, and where the standard of life in the home has been enormously reduced because a man has given up 30s., 35s., and ÂŁ2 a week, while the separation allowances do not correspond in anything like the same degree, so that all these matters have got to be taken into account.

If Members want to know why it is so much feeling has been aroused, this is the sort of thing that happens. I know a case in Partick, Glasgow, where, because a man refused to pay higher rent, an Order for Eviction was granted against him, and the eviction was timed to take place at 2 o'clock on a certain day. The eviction did not take place for various reasons, but at the moment at which the eviction was timed that man had a wounded brother lying in the house back from the trenches, and if the eviction had taken place and the furniture had been turned out, that wounded man would have been thrown out along with the rest. That was known and talked about throughout Partick and in the works throughout Partick, and I am really surprised that the hon. Baronet does not know the state of feeling that has existed in some of these districts over this question. I have a letter here from Glasgow which states what took place there on Wednesday, 17th November. There were eighteen cases of rent strikers about to come to the Court, and men to about the number of 15,000 left their work to march to the Court. At the Coventry Ordnance Works and the Albion Motor Works the whole place walked out, and were joined outside by the night-shift men. No night-shift was worked there on Wednesday, and so on. I want to know if the alternative of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London is to have this sort of feeling spreading over the Clyde. I think the idea of pre-war rents and pre-war mortgages is in the main the best line that can possibly be taken. I am quite sure this measure is necessary from many points of view in the interests of industrial peace and other things. While I agree that many criticisms can be levelled against this measure, I believe that the feeling of the country will be in its favour, and I hope the Government will go forward with the task they have in hand.

I would suggest to those hon. Members who are supporting this Bill that it might be well to abolish the population limit altogether. There are very few towns in Ireland with a population of 25,000, and therefore I would suggest that the population limit, as far as Ireland is concerned, should be abolished altogether. With regard to munition areas, I think that where munitions are in course of manufacture in Ireland, or elsewhere, this Bill comes into operation by a Proclamation.

This Bill does not come automatically into operation anywhere. The areas selected in the Bill are particular areas, and any other areas can be brought under the powers of the Bill by Proclamation.

That is what I understood, and I understood that that would be done in munition areas. I am very glad to hear that, because we hope in Ireland before long to have a very considerable output of munitions in places where industries have never been heard of before. I have had some experience of this matter in Ireland, and I can say that the thing is progressing admirably. But it is not only in the case of munition workers that I wish this Bill to apply, but where there are no munition workers, and where people may be very much worse off than in places where there are munition workers. The Chief Secretary for Ireland knows the position of artisans' dwellings in Ireland, and he knows perfectly well that dozens of our schemes have been knocked on the head, and loans refused, and therefore the carrying out of schemes for the housing of the working classes in Ireland is at a standstill. Therefore we are mostly concerned with those who are not munition workers. The only way to meet this difficulty is to abolish the population limit altogether in Ireland, so that the Bill can come into force all over Ireland without detriment to anybody. With regard to the question of mortgages, I am afraid I have not much interest in them. So long as the mortgagees get their interest paid they have no grievance, and if this Bill prevents mortgagees foreclosing on their mortgages, so long as the interest is paid, I think that is a good and fair proposition, and one which I shall support. I think this is a good Bill, and I hope the House will pass it.

I think this is well conceived in its general outline, and will meet with the general approval of those who own cottage property in this country. At the same time I agree with the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), that on economic and logical grounds this Bill is indefensible. This measure is rendered necessary by the War, and it is entirely on those lines that it ought to be defended. There are one or two points which, in my opinion, I think it is very important for us to consider. I think the limit in the Bill should be very carefully borne in mind. There is no doubt that the effect of this Bill will be to discourage building. We must therefore insist, in the plainest possible way, that it is merely an emergency Bill to meet a state of things which we hope will pass away when the War is over. I was very glad to hear that it is the opinion of the President of the Local Government Board that the evil is not widespread. I am entirely in agreement with that opinion. I know that in certain districts it is an evil and a pressing one, but there are many wide spaces of the country in which no attempt whatever has been made to raise rents. I notice that the Leader of the Opposition expressed the hope that country districts—by which I presume he meant agricultural districts— should be spared. I thought the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill had made it perfectly plain in his speech that it was to apply only to a certain level of population and to those districts in which there had been a large influx of munition workers. There are details in the Bill which, when it comes before us again, may possibly be criticised. I think that the allowance for structural improvements is one of those points on which there may be some difference of opinion. The arguments which have been used for doing away with the population limit I do not think are well founded, because the alternative of districts where munition workers have crowded sufficiently covers that difficulty. I presume, although the right hon. Gentleman did not say so, that as the rent is to be the pre-war standard, so the interest on mortgages would also be the pre-war standard.

I am glad to have that assurance. There is one other point on which I think the Bill is very valuable. We must remember that in a very large number of cases cottage property is not really owned by the man who receives the rent, because it is often built by borrowed money on mortgage, and that is a favourite form of investment. I think these people ought to be protected against the mortgage raising the interest. I entirely agree with that part of the Bill, and though there may be points which may have to be criticised when the Bill comes before us again, I say, for my own part, I cordially welcome the scheme for dealing with what is admittedly a difficult matter.

I think of the various ways in which the right hon. Gentleman could have dealt with this problem he has chosen the one least likely to raise opposition, and the one which is the most simple and practical under the circumstances. I am glad he has not decided to set up any system of Rent Courts to deal with an emergency evil, and that he has not attempted the other method of determining that a certain percentage of increase of rent and mortgage interest might be allowed. I think the right hon. Gentleman has dealt with the problem with considerable courage, and the Bill shows a common-sense grasp of the practical circumstances of the case which will commend itself to a great body of moderate opinion in this country. I think there are one or two alterations which would improve its construction. I think it would have been simpler, and probably would have avoided considerable difficulty in working, if it had been made to apply to the whole country. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the object of the Bill is to deal with the evil that has arisen in munition areas, or as a result of the operations of munition workers. But what is a munition area to-day? I think there is hardly a part of the country which is not directly interested in munition work, and rents have been increased far away from the immediate centre of the munition areas as a result of munition workers. If the right hon. Gentleman decides that he must abide by the present construction of the Bill, I hope he will see his way to reduce the population limit. The figure of 100,000 will rule out a very large number of places where the evil is exceedingly acute. I have had the advantage of receiving a large number of communications on this question, and most of the complaints have come from centres of population of 40,000 or 50,000. In my own Constituency there have been unquestionably hard cases of oppression, and my Constituency would not come under the Bill unless it was so decided by proclamation. I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that the figure of population, as now fixed, is too high, and I think he will have to take a lower figure. I think it was inevitable that the lenders of money must be dealt with. I have information this week that some of the friendly societies have been raising the rates of their interest on mortgages. I know of one college at Cambridge which had a large amount of money on mortgage to an owner of house property in London, which attempted to raise the rate of interest by Âľ per cent. Practically all classes interested in house property as owners or mortgagee owners have attempted to raise the return they were getting for their money. Consequently no one class can be singled out in this War as having shown any larger dose of original sin than any other. Whatever might be said in defence of the mortgagee owner we know that his position may be a difficult one. We have to remember that we are at war, and in some other country his position is by no means as favourable as it is here, and the mortgagee and the house owner in France would very willingly change places with the mortgagee or house owner under this Bill.

There is one point which I hope my right hon. Friend will particularly consider. Attempts will be made to evade the provision preventing increases of the rent. Particulars were not given as to whether anything has been put in the Bill to deal with that point. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take very great care to deal with cases of key money, or the payment of premiums on the taking of houses, and see that nothing is done in that way to get out of the provisions of this Bill. I know a case in which a premium of ÂŁ3 had to be paid before a tenant was allowed to enter into possession of a house where the rent was about ÂŁ30. If that sort of thing were to go on to any great extent the whole virtue of the measure, would be lost. I would repeat my congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman upon his courage in bringing in this measure. It has been criticised by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), and the right hon. Gentleman did not succeed in earning the gratitude of one of my hon. Friends at the back. I could not make out what that particular hon. Member was doing in that particular gallery, but, although these two hon. Members did not find it possible to agree with the right hon. Gentleman, it will be some compensation to him to know that to-night throughout London, and in many parts of the country, he will have the gratitude of many thousands of poor people.

I also wish to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman, both on the spirit in which he has introduced the Bill, and on the matter of the Bill. It is a simple and clear procedure; it will be easily understood; and, so far as I gathered from what I heard of its contents, it is not one which is likely to give rise to complications and legal difficulties in its operation The right hon. Gentleman very modestly said that he would not claim either logic or economic rectitude for his Bill. It is the first time that I have heard a Bill recommended as illogical and uneconomic, and I should be very sorry, indeed, if we were to deal with any of the problems arising out of the War by measures which were illogical and uneconomic. I am myself content to think that this Bill is both a logical and economic method of dealing with a temporary emergency arising out of the War. It is possible that we are using the words "logical" and "economic" in different senses. I do not think, however, that it would be desirable that the right hon. Gentlemen who are responsible for the measure, or the House should think, valuable as the measure is, that it really solves the housing problems arising out of the War. It only deals with one aspect of it, and that is the aspect of rents. It does not deal with another very serious aspect indeed in many munition areas, and that is the question of congestion. In Scotland in recent years, in an increasing degree, we have had a very severe housing problem. One has only got to look at the recent Reports of the Board of Agriculture to find full and complete evidence of it. There are in particular references in the two last Reports to the lack of decent houses.

It is notorious that in Glasgow there are more families in houses of one apartment than in almost any other part. It is the case, I think, that more than half the total population of Glasgow before the War was living more than two to a room— about 50 per cent., as compared with an average of, say, under 10 per cent. in England. Think of the effect of the War upon Glasgow, congested as it was before the War! Thousands and tens of thousands of new working men, with their families, have been crowded into the munitions area. The building of new houses is stopped. These new workmen, anxious to have accommodation, naturally offered higher rents, and prices went up, as they would of any other commodity. As there are more families than there are houses, the result has been to increase the congestion. If there were half the people living more than two to a room before the War there are very much more than half the people living two to a room now. I do not think that this Bill is likely to stimulate the building of houses during the War. We may, therefore, confidently anticipate that in those munitions areas where large numbers of new workmen are still being introduced, and where the population is increasing, this problem of congestion and overcrowding, of discomfort, and perhaps of sickness and of ill-health, will increase and go on increasing. I believe in those districts in which the Munitions Department is erecting new munitions works it is making provision for the housing of the workmen whom it introduces; but in addition to making provision with regard to rents it should exercise some prevision in existing munitions areas where it is introducing large numbers of new workmen for the proper and adequate housing of those workmen. The Bill is welcome, the Bill is good, the Bill is satisfactory so far as it goes, but there is an aspect of the problem, and a serious aspect of the problem, with which it does not deal.

I think the House may congratulate the Government on a bold and useful measure, and we may also congratulate ourselves on the fact that the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) cannot see his way to support it. If my logical and economic Friend had stood up in his place and had welcomed this Bill, I should have been inclined to treat his remarks with great suspicion, and I should certainly have desired to see what there was in the Bill that appealed to him. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board is to be congratulated. It is, of course, possible to pick holes in the Bill, and I have no doubt that holes will be picked in the Bill before it finally reaches the Statute Book, but I do think, with my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Kellaway), it is essential that the Government should reconsider the class of town to which the Bill should apply. The population of 100,000 is indefensible. I speak as the Member of an exceedingly busy Lancashire constituency, the Borough of Warrington, which would not come within the ambit of the Bill. The town which I represent has been for a century known as the town of all trades. There is scarcely a factory in the whole town which is not busy on some form of munitions work. We know that the class of workmen there populated is a very old class, and I do think the right hon. Gentleman will have to spread the net a little wider in order to get in such places as Warrington, St. Helens, and Wigan. One Could remind my right hon. Friend of many boroughs which ought to be included in the Bill, and I agree with the hon. Member for Bedford that it is quite indefensible to exclude towns like Wigan, Warrington, St. Helens, and other large and important manufacturing centres, and to include such towns as Birkenhead, because they have a few more inhabitants.

My hon. Friend must not assume, without having seen the other provisions of the Bill, that in no circumstances would they be included

I am much obliged to my right hon. Friend. I was unfortunately precluded from hearing his speech, and I agree that any criticism of that sort must, of course, be subject to the precise wording of the Bill. I hope there will be nothing in the Bill which will render it possible to exclude any large manufacturing town, and I place my criticism no higher than that. The hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) took up the case of the mortgagee. I rather think he forgot for the moment that mortgagees are already excluded from foreclosing under the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, where the mortgagor can prove that he is unable to pay owing to the War. His criticism was based on the assumption that the Government have no power over mortgagees now, but they have, and what they are doing now is to extend those powers. They are taking this drastic step, not because they have any objection to mortgages, as such, but because it is impossible to say to the owner of the house, "You shall not raise your rent," if he has got the sword of the mortgagee hanging over his head. It is a drastic step, but without that step the Act would become impossible. I do see one possible complaint which the mortgagee may have to make against the Bill. If the Government say, "You shall not foreclose under any circumstances during the period in which the Bill is in operation," I am not sure that they ought not to give him some sort of protection in respect of the property which is really his security. We know, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman knows well, that the mortgagors of working-class property are not working people, nor middle-class people, as a rule, I think I am not making too large a boast when I say that I have had more practical experience of this class of property than any other hon. Member in the House— certainly I have had as much—and the House will agree, speaking generally, that the mortgagors of working-men's houses in nine cases out of ten belong to the lower middle class. I only mention that to remind the House that the personal security the mortgagee has against the mortgagor is not a very high one. The mortgagee has very little, if any, chance of success on his personal security, and therefore practically the only security which he has got are the bricks and mortar on which he has advanced his money.

6.0 P.M.

It is quite possible for the mortgagor under this Bill to allow the property to go almost to ruin. It may be said by hon. Members that he is not likely to do that because it is his own property, but those who have knowledge of these matters will bear me out when I say that it is done over and over again in a great number of cases. Mortgagors borrow their money, and, having been able to borrow a large sum of money having regard to the value of the property and their own circumstances, they are either unable or not desirous of spending money on the property. But whatever the reason, it is done. Everybody knows that mortgagees are constantly anxious that the security on which they have advanced their money should be kept in a proper state of repair. What is the position of the mortgagee under this Bill? If the mortgagor continues to neglect his property, and to let it down into a very bad state of repair, and consequently, of course, to very seriously decrease the value of the security, it seems to me, unless the Government provide some protection, the mortgagee will be put into a very unfair position. Everybody knows that in the old days, before this Bill was thought of, the mortgagee who saw that the property was not being properly repaired always had the chance of calling in his mortgage. He, in fact, seldom did so. What he did in practice was to instruct his solicitor to write, or to write himself, a letter to the mortgagee, stating that he noticed the property was in a bad state of repair—it might require painting outside, or the chimneystack or the roof might want repairing—and that he would be obliged if the mortgagor would put it in order. If the mortgagee did not heed it he knew he ran a grave risk of the mortgage being called in, with perhaps some incidental expenses. So the mortgagor had great power in that way of calling for necessary and proper repairs to done. As I understood my right hon. Friend, by this Bill the mortgagor will have no such power. I do not suggest to the Government that they should give him complete or overwhelming powers, but they ought to give the mortgagor right of access to some Court—I do not mean some recognised Court of Law—but to some Court, to some person or persons, to whom he might make representations that his property was being decreased in value, and to ask that he might have some right by which to protect himself, and by which his security might be maintained. With that criticism I welcome the Bill into the House, and I am quite sure that hon. Members will, subject to slight criticism, adopt it.

I desire to congratulate the Government on bringing in this Bill. It was not only necessary, but it has been urgently wanted for some time. There is only one point about which I desire to ask a question, and that is whether, under the terms "areas affected by the War," we are to understand that it will be possible to include rural areas in the neighbourhood of towns? The right hon. Gentleman knows Wiltshire probably as well as any man in this House. He knows very well that for months past, since the beginning of the War, the county of Wiltshire has been inundated by large masses of troops, which have come into various parts. He knows, too, that in the neighbourhood of these military camps there has been a great deal of very unfair raising of rents. I could give him instances, and perhaps at a later stage I shall be able to do so. I wish merely now to give a general instance, without going into particulars. In the neighbourhood of one of the camps in Wiltshire were cottages which before the War were let at 5s. The rent has been increased, partly owing to the War and partly owing to the vicinity of these camps, to no less than 12s. or 13s. Wiltshire is one of the counties which suffer very much from the lack of cottage accommodation for the agricultural labourers. It does seem to me that it would be well if the Government in this Bill were to make provision to define the neighbourhood of these camps as "areas affected by the War," so that cottagers who are now suffering from exorbitant and extortionate increases in their rents can be protected. I merely put that out as a suggestion. The Bill is in every way admirably framed, so far as I understand it, and I desire, so far as I am concerned, to give it a most hearty welcome.

I know that I take the unpopular view on this question, but I am not afraid of that. I cannot congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon the Bill which he has asked leave to introduce. No one in this House recognises more readily than I do those good qualities that he displays as one of the leaders of this House; but I could much have preferred to see him sitting between two right hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side to where he is sitting now, and making a slashing attack upon this measure The question which I venture to put to him on the speech that he made in introducing the Bill seemed to me to be a matter of more importance than it is regarded by the right hon. Gentleman— that is to say, the difference between gross and net value. It seems to me to be an important principle, in that it indicates the class of houses he includes in the legislation proposed.

I apologise to my hon. Friend. I did not mean to make no answer to his question, nor was I minimising the importance of it; but my suggestion was that it would be better to postpone the details. My hon. Friend spoke in his question of the rental. It is the rental of the house, not the rateable value, and the rateable value, as he knows, is not the amount of the rent.

I was anxious to ascertain the class of property which the right hon. Gentleman is going to include in the Bill. I think I must understand that generally it deals with dwellings of artisans in all the large towns of this country. To that part of his speech I confine the few remarks which I ask to be allowed to make. I do not pretend to any wholesale knowledge of this subject over the whole of Great Britain, but I have a special knowledge of various important manufacturing districts, mainly inhabited by workpeople. I am well acquainted with the conditions of those who live in these districts, and I venture to say that I have not less knowledge of that subject than any other hon. Member. The story of house property in those districts is a very simple one. It was mainly built by the working builder, who is commonly known as a speculative builder, although in normal times there is less speculation in that industry than in most industries. By means of that industry mainly the working classes have in the past been well housed. Houses have been prepared for them year by year of a better character, and always, up to some years ago, largely in advance of requirements. In addition to this there has been a tendency to encourage building by means of land societies or building societies, which facilitated the building or the purchasing of houses by weekly instalments. Working people have very largely taken advantage of these agencies, and have become possessed, it may be, of two or three or more houses. Other people, small holders, have purchased houses in this way. The investment has been a very popular one. Thousands of people, small holders of house property, have come into being in this way; the investment has proved to be a favourite one for the saving and the thrifty.

Between these two classes, the speculative builder in a larger way, and the small holder of houses, our great towns have been built up, and the great necessities of growing towns have, in the matter of houses, been provided for. By this means the municipalities have been saved from having themselves to make this provision and of incurring the expense and the risk of building houses on a large scale. I say risk advisedly, because there is a great risk in building houses, as has been illustrated during the last ten years, and is illustrated to-night by the Bill before us. During that time trade has languished so that the building of houses has overtaken the demand to such an extent that in one of the large towns of the North 8,000 houses of one kind were at one period standing empty. In another large town 4,000 to 5,000 houses were empty at one time. The only course for the owners of houses was to lower their rents considerably or to have their houses empty. Most owners have to face both these evils. Trade began to revive. The turn of the tide set in. But the Finance Act of 1909 killed the builder, and cut up very largely the supply of new houses. No banker, solicitor, or other person would lend any money, and the trade became discredited and subsequently ruined. Trade, however, improved generally, and following the shorter supply of houses through the legislation of that time, the owners of house property began to recover some part of those fair rents which they had lost in the previous bad years. Houses were wanted again on a large scale, and the municipalities had to consider as to whether they would not again take in hand their provision. All this was happening when the War broke out. I cannot say, except so far as good trade may attract population—when trade is good everywhere that does not tend to a removal of the population—that the ordinary industry of the districts of the country has caused a special demand for houses. What the War has done is that in those districts with which I am more particularly acquainted it has created great general prosperity, and is responsible for good wages to the general body of the working people, who have never before experienced such prosperity.

That the owners of houses, many of them small people, have to some extent recovered the rents which they lost in the bad times, I think it indeed likely. I submit that they are right in recovering them, and that they would be wrong if they did not do so. They would not be practising thrift or economy if they were to neglect the opportunity, after having to bear the burden of increased rates and heavy cost of repairs and maintenance. The small increase of 1s. per week, or whatever it is, in rent that they may have been able to obtain does not go far to make up for their past losses. I can only submit that the saving or the thrifty man or woman who has taken that increased rent has been right to do so. It would be wrong not to do so; to leave that money in the pocket of the well to do and the well paid working man to spend on his numerous, and in many cases unwholesome pleasures. The assertion that in taking these small increases of rent a section of the people have been lacking in patriotism is an idea that to me is the most utter cant—more suitable for the eve of a General Election than for what should be a business-like discussion. I agree with the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) that legislation of this kind, restricting the proper management of their property by saving and thrifty people, must be tainted with the modern policy of playing to the gallery and should provoke opposition. Again, this legislation offends every economic maxim. Not only can it not be good to check the building of houses, but it cannot be good to largely depreciate the value of the taxable property which the country relies upon to produce its revenue. Low rents mean high rates. Low rents are likely to attract the attention of the mortgagee on the ground of insufficient security, and further to check any rise in the direction of building houses. That being so, the municipalities will again have to consider the question of having to provide them themselves, and the House will readily recognise what a mess they are likely to make of it, taking into account the present value of money, which is likely to remain high for many years to come.

I submit that legislation of this kind is a mistake and should be dropped. Although I feel strongly about the question, I hope I have expressed myself in moderation. I have only spoken about subjects upon which I have knowledge. I do not know of any cases of excessive rents being charged, or of any objection being taken to the raising of rents on the part of the Working population. I have been listening the whole afternoon to hear other Members recount the suffering and distress caused by the raising of rents of small property against a poverty-stricken population, but I have not heard of such cases. There may be cases such as those mentioned by the last speaker, of which I do not know, but I do know that this is a time of waste and squandering. The War has created posts of all kinds among all classes. It would be interesting to know how many people, and who, are getting money out of the taxes in consequence of the War. This is not a question of getting money out of the taxes; it is merely a question of allowing people, who have invested their money legitimately and honestly, to get a fair return for their investments from people who are well able to pay it, and who are their customers for a class of goods which they very urgently need. I submit that in a time like the present, when money is lavished in all directions, it seems to be rather a mean thing to legislate to restrict the saving and the thrifty among us, who are the backbone of the nation, from getting a fair value from their property in a time of great, even if it is ephemeral, prosperity. So far as I can, I must raise my voice against legislation of that kind.

It so happens that in Scotland, at any rate, my Constituency is one of two in which this question first became acute, and in which we had to face the threat of what was called a "no rent" strike. Owing to that fact, I have had the opportunity of knowing for some time the views of all the three parties to this controversy. I may say that I had the opportunity of examining in detail the accounts relating to nearly 1,000 tenements, therefore I can sympathise with all the parties to the controversy. With regard to the tenants, I do not believe that there is any suffering at the present time on any large scale being inflicted by increased rents, but there is a very strong sense of injustice. The right hon. Gentleman described it, I think perfectly correctly, in his speech. That sense of injustice comes from the fact that there is a feeling that there is an attempt to take advantage of monopoly values, of circumstances created by the War, and circumstances that, there- fore, ought not to be exploited in an ordinary commercial way. As regards the owner of the tenements, he is in a very difficult position at the present moment. He is between the devil and the deep sea. He finds, on one side, there are hundrds of tenants organised against him and the increase of rent he puts on by percentage of 10 or 15 per cent. on the whole of his tenements. On the other hand, he finds a movement, which for practical purposes was organised in Scotland by the Faculty of Procurators in Glasgow and by the corresponding body in Edinburgh, which has threatened him with an increase of interest under his mortgage, or, as it is called in Scotland, his bond. I have heard a great deal about this being a Bill which cannot be defended, some people have said from a logical and others have said from an economic point of view. We are in a position in which an individual measure like this may be indefensible, but when we ought not to consider individual measures. We have to consider them in relation to the whole position. When we consider the whole position, I believe there is no necessity to describe this as a measure which is indefensible on economic and logical grounds. You are not simply yielding to clamour. I do not think you are.

The position is that, owing to the War, owing to the limitation of competition in all directions, owing to the limitation of competition in the matter of wages, owing to the removal of a large number of men from the labour market, owing to the movement of the population to munitions areas and the demand for houses, and owing to the demand for capital and the fact that interest has been raised on that account, you have suddenly a falling off in competition in all three areas—of labour, of house building, that is to say rent, and mortgage supply, which affects interest. In that case those who are left in the labour field, that is to say wage-earners, those who are left in the field of the supply of houses, that is to say those in the munition areas, and those who retain their capital—in all those cases you have suddenly monopoly values established. Once you have monopoly values established, there is no reason why all those values should not go soaring up continously. We are in a circle. Consider how the thing works. You have commodities increased in price, and among those are increased rents. That is the position today. At once you have a demand from the working classes for an increase in the wages, because wages do not go so far as they used to go. It may be perfectly true that a certain number of wage earners are paid very well, but there will always be some hard case in each group of houses where the tenant has not had his wages increased. You can utilise his case in order to urge your general proposition. It is human nature to do so. The effect of that is that you work in a circle. You get a raising of wages to meet the increased cost of living, and at once you get an increase in the cost of living, because wages are a very important element of it.

From my examination of the accounts of all these tenements I find that one of the chief causes why, apart altogether from the increase of interest, you have a demand for the increase of rents at the present time is because of the increased cost of repairs. The increased cost of repairs is mainly due to the increased cost of wages. Therefore you are working in a circle, or, rather, a spiral. It is like the thread of a screw: you go round and round and up all the time. The wages increase the rents and commodities increase; again the wages increase and again the rents, and so you work up. Once you establish monopoly values in regard to all these matters there is no limit, except the limit of time, to the height to which all your prices may rise. Therefore, from the point of view of the State, it is essential to bring down the knife somewhere. You have to break the circle somewhere. It seems to me that, on the whole, this is the most convenient point at which to break the circle. You must, of course, deal with the remainder of the circle afterwards; therefore, in passing, I may say that I am very glad to see that the Government are being logical and that they are going to hold a meeting next week at which they are going to consider, with representatives of the working classes, the question of wages. Obviously, when we deal with the question of rent, you deal with the question only at one point. Once you begin to intervene in a region in which there is competition in peace time you have to be prepared to go the whole length of checking rises which may take place in other directions. Well, the position is that you have chosen at this point to bring the knife down and cut the circle. You have said. "You shall not raise rents." At any rate that is one element in the cost of living, and one excuse for raising wages gone. Possibly we shall be able to bring this most serious rise in values to a stop, because while you are borrowing, as the Government must do at the present time, everybody knows there cannot be anything more awkward than to be borrowing in rising markets.

Those who chose to attack this Bill simply considering the Bill as if it were in a watertight compartment may be able to find maxims from the text-books and views which are held among professors in regard to the subject of the raising of rents and interests to support their views, but when you consider the position as a whole, and consider this Bill merely as a link in the chain, you will justify it by every rule of logic and economics. The only thing I wish to say to the right hon. Gentleman of a practical nature is that having chosen, I think wisely, this method of dealing with the question rather than the alternative method of setting up Rent Courts, which would have opened no end of discussion, I hope he will cling to the simplicity of the idea, and if he meets with hard cases he will, as far as possible, eschew all reference to Courts and other methods of discussion. What you have to face, what from daily knowledge of what is going on in an area where this question is very vividly regarded I know exists, is that there is a grievance having a certain element of reality in it, a grievance which will become very real indeed. If, owing to the rise in interest, you have another ½ per cent. added to the interest on national loans and, consequently, you have a demand for another ½ per cent. on mortgages, then it will become a very real grievance. Owing to the existence of this grievance you have a certain number of propagandists who are advocating the housing of people upon a totally different footing. You have a number of propagandists at work utilising this grievance and maintaining the irritation. Every resort to a Court, every permission for discretion of any kind, everything which renders more complex what at present, so far as we have heard, is the beautifully simple system the right hon. Gentleman proposes, every opportunity of that kind gives an opportunity for dispute and gives an opportunity to these propagandists—hold what opinion we like in time of peace, we want to silence them in time of war—to maintain irritation. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman, having chosen to bring the knife down, having chosen to make two simple prohibitions— you shall not raise rent, and you shall not raise interest—will cling as far as he can to the simplicity of that idea and will not admit any complications, though there may here and there be a hard case, because I am perfectly certain that if he does admit complications there are those who are clever enough, and those who are keen enough at present upon their hobbies and ideas, to use those opportunities for the purpose of maintaining irritation—the very thing that this Bill is brought in to stop and to avoid.

Representing a constituency where this question has given rise to a great deal of agitation, I should like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman and the Government upon the line they have adopted in the proposals of their Bill. I am sure it will give great satisfaction in Scotland, where the situation has recently become extremely acute in certain districts. The Secretary for Scotland appointed a Committee to investigate the matter, and I am glad to think that, for the time being, the fact that that investigation was taking place succeeded in alleviating the situation. Now that we have the Report of that Committee, it appears that there was ground for very substantial complaint in certain districts, because we find that the percentage of increase in Glasgow and the surrounding districts amounted in some cases to as high as 23 per cent. since the beginning of the War. It was found, however, that the increase of rent was in many cases due to the capricious action of the landlords in these districts. In other districts there were landlords who did not take the opportunity of raising rents, and who expressly sought to avoid the difficulty which might be thereby created. In dealing with this whole problem the right hon. Gentleman should keep in view that he is, after all, not dealing with all the landlords of the country, because I think many of them have shown a desire to act fairly in the matter, but that he is dealing with a certain class who are seeking to take undue advantage of the situation. That brings me to this point, that I think one of the criticisms which one can level at the proposed limitation of areas is that the evil is not so much one due to the conditions prevailing in particular areas, although I agree that in certain areas the congestion is greater than in others. It is more due to the action of particular landlords. Speaking for the district I represent—and I think it is typical of many others—there are a number of landlords who, since the beginning of the War, have not raised rents at all. I know that is the case in one particular district that I have in view. Again, you will find districts where, although there may not be the same congestion, an effort is being made, notwithstanding, to increase rents, and that has taken effect and caused considerable difficulties. I would urge the right hon. Gentleman when he comes to consider the question of areas to give effect to the suggestion that the proposed area exceeding 100,000 population should be limited, and that we should deal with smaller areas. For example, it would cut out one or two large areas in a very populous district of the county of Lanarkshire, where undoubtedly this evil is being felt at present, although in certain instances they might be brought in as munition areas.

( was understood to say ): I hope the hon. Member will not repeat that fallacy, because it is a fallacy. He must not assume until he is in possession of the words following the population limit that any area will be excluded. The words are really very wide. How wide they will go everyone must judge for himself when he sees them. The alternative words are of the greatest importance.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the explanation. I was fully aware that there were qualifications attaching to the alternatives which he mentioned, but I understood that there might be instances in which these qualifications might not attach to the population limit. I urge upon him that in many cases it might be desirable to reduce that limit. Then with regard to munition areas, I think an effort might be made in dealing with the problem by the promotion of housing schemes within those munition areas. I am glad to see this is being given effect to in certain districts in Scotland. In Lanarkshire a housing scheme has been recently approved for Mossend, and I hope it will be speedily carried into effect, in order to meet the difficulties there caused by congested population. On the whole matter I sincerely trust that the Government, in introducing these proposals, will seek at the earliest possible moment to deal with this serious problem. It is high time that they made it clear that they are not going to tolerate the injustice which has been done during these recent months to many families who have been evicted, the members of which in some cases have been serving at the front, and the grave lack of judgment and patriotism has been shown by the landlords who have taken such action. Now that we have an undertaking that the matter is going to be dealt with, I hope it will be dealt with on lines which will obviate any injustice to any particular class. It is clear that the landlord and bondholder is not to be put in a better position than many other investors are at present who cannot realise their securities. After all, there are many who hold securities at present who could not realise them, just as a bondholder might not be able to foreclose under this Bill, and the bondholder would, in most cases, be getting a substantial rate of interest. I, therefore, very heartily welcome the Bill, and I am sure it will give great satisfaction in many districts in Scotland where this problem has been acute.

I listened with much interest to the very courageous speech of my hon. Friend (Sir J. Rolleston), and if this Bill had been brought in in time of peace I should certainly have given him my support in opposition to it. But, after all, this is a war emergency Bill, and it is simply as such that it appears to me not only justifiable but necessary, and as such I shall certainly support it. I was very glad to hear, from my right hon. Friend's description of the Bill, that it is going to be so simple. I agree most entirely with my hon. Friend (Mr. Mackinder) that a Bill of this sort, if you are to have smooth, rapid, and cheap working, must be very simple. I believe suggestions have been made for settling the question by setting up a Fair Rent Court. I am very glad my right hon. Friend did nothing of the sort. I think it would have meant immense expense and great delay. As I understand the Bill it may be summed up in two or three words: The rent is to be the prewar rent and the interest upon money lent upon the premises is to be the prewar interest, and I think that is a good sound principle, and I hope, even at the expense of inflicting some little hardship, he will not complicate the Bill by introducing modifications such as might gravely endanger its useful working. That there will be hardships I have no doubt. For instance, take the owner of these small properties, who very often is rather a poor man. He undoubtedly has, owing to this war, to bear costs in connection with his property which he had not to bear before the War. He will have to bear in many cases a very considerable increased cost of repairs and maintenance. Probably the true answer to that is one which was given by the right hon. Gentleman himself in introducing the Bill when he said, we all have to bear burdens in connection with this War, and it is a fundamental mistake in dealing with that subject to attempt, by legislation or otherwise, to shift these burdens on to someone else. That only results in a vicious circle raising values and probably increasing rents. Therefore, if the owner of these small properties suffers some hardship in not being able to raise the rent, on the other hand he will undoubtedly get certain advantages by the Bill. He will not have to pay more interest upon the money lent to him on mortgage and, if I understand the provisions of the Bill rightly, the mortgagee will not be able to call in his money. Am I right in supposing there will be some provision in the Bill to prevent the mortgagee calling in his money?

Yes; I said we proposed to place certain restrictions on the foreclosure of mortgages.

Not only should these restrictions be placed on foreclosure, but they should be placed upon his calling in and suing for the money. As the law stands now, in the Courts Emergency Bill, a mortgagee can sue for his money and can get judgment, but he cannot issue execution under the judgment.

It would be proper, as you are restricting the power of the mortgagee, to ask for more interest, also to prevent him from calling in his money and getting the same thing indirectly. On the whole, I think ft is a useful, a necessary, and, above all, a very simple Bill, and I hope it will go through the House easily and without any serious modification.

I feel that those who think with me would not be justified if we allowed this Debate to conclude without expressing the view that this housing problem is not really a war problem at all, although no doubt it is to some extent accentuated by war conditions. The housing problem was with us before the War. In our view it demands a separate solution, and whether in war time or in peace time, it will be quite impossible to solve it unless these conditions are considered. The hon. Member (Mr. Mackinder) traced back the whole of this difficulty to monopoly, and pointed out, quite truly and clearly, that these largely increased rents can only be exacted because of the monopoly which exists. We have pointed out again and again that in our view the housing problem is a monopolistic one. In our view it will be quite impossible to secure any material modification of these evil conditions unless we deal with these monopolies. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) said that under normal conditions he would not personally recommend this Bill to the House, and that he would not consider this a proper method of dealing with the question. It has been my misfortune to differ from the right hon. Gentleman in past housing Debates, but as far as his statement on the present occasion goes I am in entire accord with him. If these conditions are created and maintained by monopoly you cannot secure justice to the tenants who are oppressed by simply setting some limit, as this Bill professes to do, to the exactions that can be made. You can only do it by breaking down the monopoly. I have endeavoured to point out again and again that the monopoly of houses in this country merely arises because of the land monopoly which exists in this country, and which creates these unfavourable conditions. The right hon. Gentleman stated quite truly that there were no reasons why these increased rents should be imposed merely because people obtain higher wages. He said that the only reason for increased rent was if the cost which had been imposed on the house owner had been increased, and then he would be entitled to recover that increased cost. Yes, but it has never been the case that rent has borne any real proportion to the amount expended by the householder.

In every case where monopolistic conditions continue the owner of the house has endeavoured to secure for himself any advantage which accrue from increased w ages. Perhaps the best illustration that can be given, or at any rate the illustration that is best known, is what happened when the tolls were taken off Waterloo Bridge. There used to be a toll of ½d. on all persons passing over Waterloo Bridge. A large number of people pursued their daily avocation on one side of the bridge and lived on the other. They required to pass over in the morning and to return at night, so that it cost them 1d. per day for tolls. The tolls were taken off. What immediately followed was that the whole of the rents on the other side of the bridge were increased by 6d. a week. Therefore the whole of the advantage which accrued from taking off the toll went into the pockets of the house-owners. In the long run, however, the advantage does not stay with the house-owner, if he happens to be a leaseholder of land. On that matter I would like to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman. He is safeguarding the house-owner from the person who holds the mortgage over his property. He says the person who holds the mortgage is not to be entitled during the period that the rent is limited to raise the interest payable under the mortgage, and he is not to be entitled to foreclose, so long as the ordinary interest is paid. Yes, but in cases where leases run out, and leases are constantly running out, is there anything to protect the house-owner against his ground landlord if the ground landlord arbitrarily increases his ground rent, and so makes it unprofitable for him to continue in the position of house-owner under those conditions. If that is not so, ought not the same protection which is given to him against the person who holds the mortgage be given him against his ground landlord? I do suggest that there ought to be some provision in the Bill where if leases fall out during the period that the Bill is in operation the leaseholder shall be protected, so that his rent cannot be raised against him, but he will be allowed to retain the position of his present ground rent. I think that is a very reasonable proposition. I think we are entitled to ask that, seeing that while everybody is to be called upon for sacrifices in this country the only person who has been treated as sacrosanct is the ground landlord. We have seen in the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer increased taxes put upon everybody, except that the land taxes stand where they did, and there is no increase there. Therefore I am entitled to ask the right hon. Gentleman, when he is protecting the house-owner against the person who holds the mortgage, that he should extend this protection against the ground landlord.

There is one point which is not quite clear to me from the right hon. Gentleman's statement, and it will be of great interest if he would clear it up. The point is whether in the event of a change of tenancy the new tenant will benefit by the provisions of this Bill, or whether the protection only extends to the person who was the tenant in possession when the Bill came into operation?

No, Sir. I thought I had made that point quite clear. The rent itself is the sole factor which is dealt with. The question of who is the tenant paying the rent is immaterial. The object of the Bill is to be fair and to ensure that there shall be a standard rate from the 4th August, 1914, and that any difference in the standard rate—that is, any increased rent—shall not be recoverable.

I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, and I am sure that his statement will give great satisfaction. Otherwise there could have been evasion by ejection. I would be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would explain a little more fully his definition about population, because it is by no means clear to me. Take the case of Wales. In the case of Wales, if 100,000 is the limit to be applied, there is only one town in the whole of the Principality which would benefit, and that is the town of Cardiff, except other towns which happen to be munition areas.

There is provision for urban districts. As my hon. Friend knows, Wales is remarkable for more than one urban district with a very large population. I hope he will forgive me if I do not give him their names, but they are a little difficult to pronounce, and some of them are extremely long.

That is true. I take it that the right hon. Gentleman has in mind the Rhondda urban district and the Pontypridd urban district. In the Bhondda valley, which is split up into three or four urban districts, you have a huge population practically living in one continuous long street, and, if your protection is to be given merely according to population, then difficulty will arise under this Bill.

Population is taken as the first consideration, because I think the House will feel that it is in these large, populous places that these difficulties mainly occur. They occur there most frequently; but as it is obvious that there are difficulties in other areas than the big and populous ones, words are added which enable these districts to be included if they fulfil the conditions of the Bill. As to that, hon. Members will judge for themselves when they see the words of the Bill. They will then apply them to their own localities, and will then be able to judge, and not until then, whether the words are satisfactory or not.

I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, and I will not pursue this catechism. I hope, however, he will not close his mind to the possibility of revising the limit of population, which is dealt with automatically. I think that in regard to this question of population something like 50,000 would be a better population than that which he has adopted. I do not press that point however, because I agree it is a Committee point, and not one for Second Reading. I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not close his mind to consideration of the possibility of applying the Act automatically to districts with a smaller population. I thoroughly agree with the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Mackinder) and also with the right hon. Gentleman that, as this is an emergency matter, this simple method of dealing with it is superior to the more complicated method of adopting Fair Rent Courts. I join with the hon. Member for Camlachie in expressing the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will adhere to that method rather than the other method, which would be much more cumbersome and much more difficult of application, and much less likely to secure for the tenants the protection they require.

I should like to ask one question in reference to future contracts. The title of the Bill does not particularly state whether any new contract entered into during the War—that is, from the present time—will come under this Bill. Some reference has been made by various hon. Members to a particular Clause in the Courts Emergency Powers Act, which allows a mortgagor, if he is in bankruptcy, to ask for a stay of proceedings if he can show that his difficulties are due to the War. In that particular Act there is a Sub-section which provides that,

"This Sub-section shall not apply to any sum of money (other than rent not being rent at or exceeding fifty pounds per annum) due and payable in pursuance of a contract made after the beginning of the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen."

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to state whether these conditions, taking away the right of foreclosure, will apply to mortgagees for all future business. Representing a constituency which would come under this Bill, and which is suffering from the crying evil and hardship of increased rents, I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his Bill, and I can assure him that it will be welcomed in that city. I should like to ask him if it will apply to future mortgagees. I am sure he is anxious to do what is fair, and to meet the situation that has arisen. In the particular city of which I speak there is a famine of houses and we do not wish to interfere with the security in such a way that it might discourage bankers and insurance companies from lending money in the future. I would like to know whether these conditions will apply to new contracts entered into from now, and after the passing of the Act. At the same time I would assure the right hon. Gentleman that I welcome this Bill and congratulate him upon it.

The answer is clear. The rate of interest on the mortgage, or the rent of the dwelling-house since the commencement of the present War, or hereafter during the continuance of this Act. So it applies not only to the increases already made, but to those that may be made subsequently. Not only that, but the Bill is quite watertight in that respect, for provision is made that there shall be no evasion of the provisions of the Act by the ordinary methods which have been referred to. I do not think any hon. Member need have any doubt as to the application of the Bill. I must thank the House for the reception they have given to the Bill. It is a very difficult and very complicated subject, which touches upon a great many interests. I think we have had a most interesting Debate, and one which has been of extreme value to the Government in helping us in putting the finishing touches upon some details of the Bill, which we have purposely reserved until we came here to-day. I am not only very grateful to the House for the way in which they have received the Bill, but I hope that without any prolonged debate the measure may be placed upon the Statute Book. The sooner a Bill of this kind comes into operation, the better it will be, and the more effective it will be.

I would like to know what the right hon. Gentleman means by saying that the Bill will not be retrospective. Will cases that were in controversy before the Bill was introduced be covered by the Bill? Will property owners be prevented from increasing rents before the Bill comes on the Statute Book?

7.0 P.M.

Increases in rent made after the War—already made, made today or to-morrow will come within the purview of the Bill. What I meant was, that it would not be retrospective in the sense where there has been an increase which has been accepted by the tenant, and the money has been paid, or when the money has been running due but has not been paid, or where the increase was made before this Act comes into operation.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Long, Mr. Birrell, Mr. McKinnon Wood, the Solicitor-General, and Mr. Hayes Fisher. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 162.]

Government War Obligations

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament and, if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund, of such sums as may be required for giving effect to obligations incurred for the purposes of the present War or in connection therewith, by or on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and for other purposes in relation thereto."

Are we to have an explanation at all in the Committee as to this Resolution?

I am endeavouring to consult the convenience of the House, and I do not think that it would be convenient to most Members to take a debate on the Resolution now. The Resolution when passed will be reported to the House, and then a Bill will be introduced. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised a full statement next week on the Second Reading of this Bill. Therefore I thought it better to let this Resolution go through now, as was done last year in connection with a similar Bill, without discussion.

I am quite satisfied, if on the Report stage we really do have a full explanation.

It will be given on the Second Reading of the Bill itself.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported upon Tuesday next.

Evidence (Amendment) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

I hope that some Minister will explain this Bill, and if no Minister connected with the Bill is here I shall be very glad if my intervention gives an opportunity for some such Minister to come and take his place on the Front Bench. It is an important matter when we find that men may be tried for their lives, convicted, and sentenced to death on the evidence of men who may not be present at the trial to be examined and cross examined. I have glanced at the Bill in the hope that it would be elucidated by the Home Secretary, or some equally responsible legal luminary. I have come here much more to listen to such explanation than to make any criticism myself. Now that the Home Secretary is here I may say that I do not think that a man ought in any case to be tried for his life and condemned to death upon evidence, the author of which evidence is not present at the trial. That is a point which should be considered when we come to the Committee stage. There is another point. This will allow a man in the Forces to be given a certificate that he cannot attend a trial, and his evidence will be taken without his being present at the trial. I think that some assurance ought to be given that where the evidence of soldiers and sailors who are at home, and are not on foreign service, is to be produced at a trial, those men will themselves be produced if they are in England. I shall not at all propose that soldiers and sailors who are away on foreign service should be produced at a trial, but when they are in England they ought not to be given a certificate of inability to attend.

I apologise for not being here when the Bill was called, but I gather from what my hon. Friend has said about it that only a few words are needed to explain the contents of this small Bill. They deal with three points. The first is: suppose that a witness gives evidence at the preliminary proceedings before a magistrate, and the prisoner is committed for trial. It sometimes happens that the witness dies before the actual trial takes place. The law already provides in that case for what is to be done in order that justice may be administered. The conditions are very strict. You cannot use the deposition or written record of what the witness has said before the magistrate in criminal proceedings unless you show, first, that he has died in the meantime; second, that the accused person was present when the witness gave his testimony before the magistrate; and, third, that the accused person, or his legal adviser, had full opportunity for cross-examining. When you have shown those things, then, if the witness has died in the meantime, you may read his deposition sooner than justice should be defeated. This Bill provides that where a witness is absent from a trial, though he has been present before the magistrate, not because he has died in the meantime, but because in the meantime he has become actively engaged in the naval or the military service of His Majesty, so that he cannot be present at the trial, then in those circumstances you may read his testimony, but this could only be done on proof as before, that the original testimony was given in the presence of the accused, and that the accused had every opportunity of cross-examining. If that is not done, then the real truth is that, because we are at war we fail to get justice done in certain cases, although there is no reason at all why justice should not be done. I have had my attention called, since I have held my present office, to a case at Quarter Sessions, in which the person accused had to be released without trial, because the essential witness meanwhile had gone to the front.

There is a second point about the Bill. At present at the trial you can only read the deposition of an absent witness in the circumstances which I have described, if the witness gave his testimony before a magistrate in the first instance. But there are a great many cases now in which the preliminary inquiry is a military inquiry, though the final trial is before a judge and jury. As the House knows, any British subject is entitled to claim if he likes to be tried by a judge and jury, and not to be tried by court-martial under the Defence of the Realm Act. It is intended in this Bill to cover that case. We ought to have the same rule in those circumstances as that which obtains where the preliminary inquiry is before a magistrate: that is, we ought to be able to read the deposition of an absent witness, even though it was first taken at a military inquiry. There again, the deposition could not be read unless the accused person had been present when the witness was giving his evidence, and had every opportunity of cross-examining him. There is a. third point. By the Documentary Evidence Act, the orders which are made by the Army Council cannot be proved simply by producing the document printed by the King's printer. You have to produce someone from the War Office to testify solemnly that he has inspected the document printed by the King's printer, and that it is the Order of the Army Council. We have taken the opportunity of getting rid of that absurdity.

I may now refer to the two points raised by my hon. Friend. I do not think that because a case is a serious case we ought to refuse to allow justice to be done, simply because a witness is necessarily absent at the front, provided that the accused has had the security that he could cross-examine, if he pleased. Of course, if he did cross-examine, the answers would be reported. I am quite clear that we ought not to make an exception, because the accusation is serious. There is no such exception in the existing law. The other point of my hon. Friend was, that he desired to have an assurance that this power to read evidence in the absence of a witness will not be used in a light hearted way, when the witness could be present. I am supporting this Bill with my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for War, and for the moment? prefer to say that I will communicate with him, so as to get a satisfactory assurance; but I am quite certain that the policy would be to produce the witness wherever it is possible to do so.

I am not going to oppose the Second Reading, but I wish to draw attention to the fact that this is one of the instances in which the securities we now possess by law are gradually being whittled away, very much due, no doubt, to the exceptional circumstances of the present time.

I regret very much that we have not had from the Home Secretary any real justification for this Bill. He has told us that he believes there is one case where it was not possible immediately to produce someone who had gone on active service. I think I never heard a lighter justification than that for such a great change in the law. The law of evidence is well established and well grounded in our legal procedure, and for very good reasons precautions have been taken that witnesses should be present in order that they may be cross-examined. Everybody knows that in these preliminary inquiries, in many cases, there is no legal advocate present, and no chance at all of cross-examination, the defendant's knowledge of legal procedure often being infinitesimal, and the man having no chance of securing proper cross-examination. I should like to mention to the House, from actual experience what may go on in courts-martial. I remember that in the South African war, a court-martial was being held, and the President of the Court stated that he intended to follow the proclamation of Lord Roberts, which laid down the principle that every defendant who could not prove himself innocent was to be held guilty.

Fortunately, there was a barrister present, and he asked that the proclamation should be produced. The President requested the clerk of the Court to produce it, but that official, after searching among his papers, necessarily was unable to do so, there being no such proclamation. The President said that he intended to follow that procedure without any proclamation. Thereupon, counsel for the defendant asked that there should "be taken down his protest, which was to the effect that it was the duty of the court-martial to follow the law of evidence as applied in the Courts at Westminster. The President adjourned the Court in order to consider the matter. Finally, when the Court resumed, he stated that he regretted that he had been mistake a and that he intended to follow the law of evidence as practised in the Courts of Westminster. I give that as an illustration of the danger of allowing a military officer to take down evidence in a court-martial with no counsel present and very often when the defendant is quite unable to follow the proceedings It seems to me a most dangerous thing to give this power of producing the evidence of men who are away, and whose absence is simply certified by a military official, and I am not quite sure who the official is. It seems to me one of the most dangerous things, at the present time, to give this liberty, because if we grant a liberty of this kind it is a precedent in legal procedure which is certainly likely to be more abused than almost any other.

I remember very well, again referring to my personal experience, that during the South African war, and under martial law, a large number of affidavits were made, and those affidavits were ex parte in respect of a very considerable number of persons imprisoned under martial law. Eventually, when the war was over, and those persons came up for trial in the ordinary way, almost invariably those affidavits were absolutely destroyed by cross-examination. Those affidavits were made at a time when there was great feeling, and when the popular mind was in such a state that ready credence was given to statements. Unlike the time of peace, when the conditions are different in time of war and court-martial statements are made of a most detrimental character to many persons, and when the time of proper trial comes those statements are entirely varied under the procedure of a proper legal inquiry. I cannot understand how the Home Secretary could come forward with a Bill of this kind to fundamentally alter our legal safeguards, particularly in cases of this kind, without some better justification. He is unable to give us any better justification than he has given of one case only where a witness was absent on military duty. I do not see why there should be this tremendous haste to dispense with our safeguards, and cases might wait until men? could return from the front. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset has pointed out that a man has been tried for his life on evidence of this kind. I submit that you can never say how tainted the evidence may be, as I have clearly shown it has been in the past.

The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, in his statement on the Bill, showed that, in cases that had already come to his knowledge, it has been impossible to execute justice because of the absence of the necessary witnesses at the front. This Bill deals only with indictable offences, and I want to call attention to the fact that, during the War, our soldiers and sailors are practically precluded from civil action in the Courts, because they cannot be present to give the necessary evidence. I therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman, while proceeding with this measure, to take into consideration whether he cannot enlarge its scope so as to include evidence in civil cases on similar lines to those now proposed; otherwise any sort of action can be brought against a man in his absence and while serving in the War, and no matter how bogus and how oppressive the action may be it would be perfectly impossible for him to be present. Or, on the other hand, great injustice may be done, and it may be perfectly impossible—and I know cases where it has been absolutely impossible— to bring an action into Court, as would ordinarily be done in civil life. I merely put that before the right hon. Gentleman, because he has known of miscarriage of justice, or inability to see justice done, owing to the absence of witnesses in an indictable offence I submit that there is just as strong a case to be made out for some enlargement of the rules of evidence in respect to civil cases, where officers or men are serving at the front, and who have actions brought against them, or who, in defence of their rights, wish to bring actions against others here at home.

May I ask whether, under this machinery, it will be brought to the knowledge of the Supreme Court exactly what the rules of procedure are, so that the President of the Court to which this Bill applies shall be able to know whether they have been properly applied in the case before him? Where evidence is to be admitted, the Court dealing with it should be able to satisfy itself that it has been properly taken under the rules. Another point is this: If it be the case that this might apply to a capital offence, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the propriety of putting in words which would prevent its doing so?

Then I shall content myself with the first question, with the remark that everybody is prepared to give the Government almost all the power they ask for in time of war, but we want it done in such a way as to mark that it is of an exceptional character and will come to an end when the War period is over.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tuesday next.

Midwives (Scotland) Bill

Order for Second Beading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

This Bill, to which the House is asked to give a Second Reading, is one with which the House is already familiar. It has passed through the other House and it has passed the Second Reading in this House, and has also been before the Scottish Grand Committee. It was at that time in charge of my hon. Friend the Member for the Blackfriars Division (Mr. Barnes), but, owing to circumstances into which I need not enter, time could not be found for the Report stage or the Third Reading, and the Bill stopped after the Committee stage. A great many representations have been made to me me by practically the heads of the medical profession, and also by public health authorities and others, that in this time of war there was special need for a Bill of this kind. As the House is aware, the medical profession has been sadly depleted. A great many doctors have gone to the front, leaving rural districts inadequately provided with medical practitioners; so that competent midwives are absolutely necessary throughout Scotland. Another representation to which I attach a great deal of value comes from the principal of Glasgow University, who is president of the Medical Council and a member of the Highlands and Islands Medical Service Corps. That gentleman brought before me very strong reasons showing the urgent need of this Bill for Scotland. The Scottish midwife is not able to obtain a formal qualification except in England. When she returns to Scotland she is not under the same control as the English midwife is Altogether, I think, the case for treating this as a matter of urgency is virtually made out on very high authority indeed. I need not enter into the details of the Bill, which has been fully considered before, and I hope that the House will give it a Second Heading.

I do not want to say anything in opposition to the Bill; on the contrary, I want to say that I welcome it, because I think it is much needed. It is quite true, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that I had the Bill in hand, but certain words were inserted in the Committee to which I strenuously objected, and those words are now in the Bill. They are, that no woman "shall habitually and for gain" practice midwifery, etc., because it seems to me they are so vague that they may lead to a good deal of litigation. There is also another point which was raised then, and that is as to the claim of the National Association of Midwives in Scotland to have representation on the council. No provision is made for that in the Bill, although I appreciate the fact that there is provision for representation of qualified midwives as soon as they are certified. Although I welcome the Bill, I am rather sorry the right hon. Gentleman has had to make terms with the enemy in order to get it through, and that, as a consequence, those words, which I think are not necessary, are in the Bill. I may propose an Amendment later on, I do not know, but my object rather is to get the Bill through. Even with the words in I would rather have the Bill than have a long discussion and possible defeat in trying to get the words out.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland on having brought in this Bill, which is long overdue in Scotland. About twelve years ago a Midwives Bill was passed for England, and at that time my name appeared on the back of it. That measure has, I believe, worked extraordinarily well. I am sure it will give great pleasure to all the Scottish representatives to hear that this Bill has been introduced, and that we will all do our best to assist the right hon. Gentleman in getting it through.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tuesday next.

The remaining Orders of the Day were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the Home of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-seven minutes before Eight o'clock till Tuesday next 30th November, pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.