House of Commons
Tuesday, November 30, 1915
Private Business
Port Dundas Church and Parish Quoad Sacra, Glasgow, Order Confirmation Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
New Writ
For the County of York, North Riding (Cleveland Division), in the room of the Right Honourable Herbert Louis Samuel, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.— [ Mr. Gulland. ]
Trade Reports (Annual Series)
Copy presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, No. 5534 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
TREATY SERIES (No. 12, 1915)
Copy presented of Agreement between the United Kingdom and the Netherlands relating to the Boundary between the State of North Borneo and the Nether-land Possessions in Borneo. Signed at London, 28th September, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Army
Copy presented of arrangements made for Water Supply to the Troops during Landing at Suvla Bay [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
East India (Indian Students Department)
Copy presented of Report on the Work of the Indian Students Department, July, 1914, to June, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Statistical Abstract (United Kingdom)
Copy presented of Statistical Abstract for the United Kingdom in each of the last fifteen years from 1900 to 1914. Sixty-second number [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Civil Service (Royal Commission)
Copy presented of Sixth Report of the Commissioners. Appendix. Minutes of Evidence, 11th February, 1915, to 8th July, 1915, with Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
National Relief Fund
Copy presented of the Report to His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales by the Scottish Advisory Committee on the adminstration of the National Relief Fund in Scotland up to the 31st March, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copies presented of Orders made by the undermentioned local authorities, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—
Council of the city of Bradford;
Council of the city of Carlisle (two Orders;
Council of the borough of Louth;
Council of the urban district of Stourport
[by Act]; to lie upon the table.
Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907
Copy presented of Order, numbered D.I.P. 300, declaring an area described in the Schedule thereto to be infected with Wart Disease and to be an infected area for the purposes of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
German Agents (False Statements)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether active measures are being taken to counteract the effect of the false statements and propaganda of German agents in the United States of America, in Persia, and in other countries which are at present neutral, as well as in India and in other British Possessions; and whether adequate efforts are being made to prevent the influence of such agents, exercised through the Press and otherwise, from continuing to prove injurious to British interests?
Energetic steps are taken in various ways to counteract the effect of false statements made in the interests of the Central Powers in neutral countries. It would obviously not be in the public interest to enter into any details as to the nature of these activities.
Persian Government (Moratorium)
asked whether Russia and Great Britain have now agreed to the moratorium requested by the Persian Government in respect of the payment of interest on loans made by this country and Russia; whether the main object of this moratorium is for the payment of the gendarmerie sections of which have just revolted; and whether, under the circumstances, he will consider the employment to command this force of officers having Asiatic experience and will make a recommendation on these lines to the Persian Government?
His Majesty's Government and the Russian Government are engaged in amicable negotiations with the Persian Government, with a view to placing the latter in a position to maintain -order in Persia and to uphold the duties incumbent upon a neutral State. Until these negotiations are further advanced I do not consider that it would be in the public interest to make a detailed statement on the subject.
Greece and the Allies
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is in a position to make any statement as to the exact understanding which has been arrived at between the Allied Powers and the Greek Government?
I do not think I can usefully make any statement at present.
Letters from Switzerland (Censorship)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether letters and printed matter posted in Switzerland to Members of Parliament in England, whether directed to the House of Commons or to their private addresses, are subject to be censored by British War Office officials, or by French officials, or by both; whether, in case such postal matter is considerably delayed or destroyed, he will in future communicate with any hon. Members whose correspondence is thus treated; and whether he can make any statement which will guide hon. Members as to the course which they should pursue when they desire to receive foreign letters and publications?
Letters and printed matter posted from Switzerland to Members of both Houses of Parliament and addressed to the respective Chambers are not subject to censorship, but if such letters are sent to private addresses they are subject to censorship. In this connection I would refer my hon. Friend to an answer I gave to the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire on the 6th July. I think that what I have said in regard to postal matter from Switzerland would apply also to the action of the French officials. As regards the second part of the question I do not see exactly what purpose could be served by the suggested increase of my correspondence. In reply to the third part of the question, I would advise my hon. Friend to request his foreign correspondents to address their letters, and any publications they may send him, to this House, when, as I have stated, no censorship would be imposed.
4th Scottish Provisional Battalion
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that the 4th Scottish Provisional Battalion was recently paraded and addressed by the colonel of another battalion, who informed them that those of them who were unmarried and did not join their Imperial Service Battalion by the 30th November would be forced to do so in December; whether that, statement was authorised by the War Office; and, if not, will he take measures to intimate to the battalion that the statement was unauthorised?
A portion of the 4th Scottish Provisional Battalion, which originally belonged to the 2/6th Black Watch, was addressed by the colonel of the 2/6th Black Watch, who was anxious to persuade a large number of the men to undertake the Imperial Service obligation. This was, I think, a perfectly legitimate proceeding. The statement with reference to what might happen after the 30th November was perhaps based on insufficient information, but in substance it is, of course, the case, as I stated the other day, that any other measures which may have to be adopted will apply to all sections of the population.
Roll of Honour and Casualty Lists
asked whether officers and men who have been seriously injured at the front owing to defective bombs or other causes, and who have lost a limb or their eyesight by reason of such accidents, are precluded from having their names placed on the Roll of Honour; and, if so, will he say the reasons?
The principle followed has been to show as wounded, in the announcements to the Press, only those whose wounds were received in action. This decision has been based on the view that the casualty list is intended to be a list of the men killed, wounded and missing in action with the enemy. Outside this category there are various other forms of casualty not due to action with the enemy the inclusion of any one of which would make it difficult to draw any clear line. I think if any misunderstand- ing exists on this point, it is due to the use of the misleading term "Roll of Honour" instead of "Casualty List." Inclusion or exclusion from the casualty list ought not to be regarded as a measure of a man's service to his country.
Do not all public bodies, public schools, and the universities establish a Roll of Honour, and are only the people who are actually in the casualty list to be on that roll? Is that not so? Is it not a great injustice to these men not to be on the roll?
I dare say it is true that a large number of public schools and other bodies have adopted the phrase "Roll of Honour," but if they would adopt the phrase "Casualty List" they would include those who have unfortunately suffered from these accidents.
Does not the phrase "Roll of Honour" as employed by public schools include all those who have gone to serve, and not merely those who are in the casualty lists?
Yes, I think that is so.
Recruiting
Official Age of Enlistment
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that there is considerable doubt in the country as to the official age at which young men can be recruited for the Army; will he say whether the official age is nineteen, with the reservation that lads can be enlisted three months prior to their attaining the age of nineteen for training; and whether he can give any assurance that Lord Derby is not recruiting any persons under this age?
The second part of my hon. Friend's question is a correct statement of the position in regard to the men attested, passed to the Army Reserve, classified in a group, returned to civil employment and eventually called up to the Colours, except that these men may be accepted after passing the age of eighteen, but would not be called up under existing Regulations until three months before attaining the age of nineteen. As regards direct enlistment, no man is eligible v ho is below the age of nineteen. My Noble Friend Lord Derby has given instructions for the strict adherence to this rule.
Are any steps taken when a person enlists to ascertain whether he is nineteen years of age or not?
Oh, yes. Steps are taken to ascertain whether the recruit is or is not nineteen. If he is nineteen he is eligible, and not until he is nineteen years of age.
War Work (Civilian's of Military Age)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether efforts have been made to enlist fit men of military age now dressed in khaki and engaged in various departments of war work, either at home or abroad, which could be undertaken by men over military age or by women; and whether any steps have been taken to co-ordinate action and prevent overlapping and the present competition of the various Government Departments to get the men they want irrespective of the country's needs?
I am not quite sure to what classes of men my hon. and gallant Friend is referring, but I can assure him that efforts are being made to secure the enlistment of every fit man of military age irrespectively of whether he may be a civilian dressed in khaki or not. As regards the last part of the question, I do not think it is the case that the various Government Departments are competing for men irrespective of the country's needs. But at a time of stress some competition is unavoidable.
Army Reserve
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether men who are attested and sent back to civil employment under Lord Derby's scheme of recruiting are to be counted in the number of men authorised by Parliament for the year 1915–16 on the Home and Colonial establishments of the Army exclusive of those serving in India?
Men who are passed to the Army Resrve are not borne on the Parliamentary Vote for numbers.
Medical Students
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will exempt medical students from pressure who are approaching the end of their third year's course; and he will give instructions that the first and second-year students who desire to continue their training shall be allowed to do so?
I will read to the House a communiqué which was recently made to the Press on this matter:—
"Students who at or before the close of the present winter session will be qualified for entry to one of the examination? for the third-year students in medicine and duly enter for the examination for which they are now studying will not be attested until after its conclusion, and if they are successful will be included in the class of fourth-year men under Lord Derby's scheme."
I answered the latter part of the question in Debate the other day, and I adhere to what I then said. I fear I cannot undertake to give the instructions suggested any more than I can undertake to cancel the decision that candidates for holy orders are to be regarded as eligible to be canvassed and enlisted or to receive commissions.
Clergymen and Ministers of Religion
asked the Undersecretary of State for War on what ground ministers of religion and clergymen have been placed in the last class of recruits, and. seeing that such ministers and clergymen have received Lord Derby's invitation to enlist, will he say if these persons are being canvassed; is he aware that some clergymen who have volunteered for military service have been told by their bishops, as by the Bishop of Salisbury, for instance, that if they undertake military service they will be deprived of their livings; will he ascertain from Lord Derby how many such cases the canvass returns reveal; and will he send on to the Attorney-General particulars of all such cases in order that the provisions of the Defence of the Realm Act against hindering recruiting may be put in motion against these bishops who have used these threats against responding to the appeal for recruits?
Any ministers of religion or clergymen who enlist are put into the groups appropriate to their age and marital condition, and they are not remitted to the last class of recruits. I am not aware of, nor am I responsible for, what may or may not have been said by the Bishop of Salisbury or by the leaders of any other communion to ministers or clergymen, nor have I any information as to what may have been revealed by canvass returns in regard to this matter. As regards the last part of the question, I must congratulate my hon. Friend on his new-found enthusiasm for the Defence of the Realm Acts, but I may say that neither as regards the clerical nor as regards the medical profession is it proposed to put in motion the Act against those heads of communions in the one case or heads of medical schools in the other who have expressed the opinion that the ordained minister or the qualified and nearly qualified medical man do better service to the country by staying at home for the cure of souls or bodies respectively than by enlisting. In either case the attitude adopted has the approval of the War Office, and I could not consent to such a misuse of the Defence of the Realm Acts.
National Register (Starred and Unstarred Men)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, having regard to the statements of the Government that the recruiting now going on under the National Register is resulting in men being starred who ought not to be starred and in men not being starred who ought to be starred, what steps it is proposed to take to remedy what has been wrongly done and to prevent similar failure in future?
It is hoped to rectify such errors as have been made by means of the various tribunals which have been set up. My hon. Friend will agree that in the circumstances error could not have been entirely avoided.
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is inexcusable and culpable negligence?
Would it not be possible to allow all canvassers to have starred cards as well as unstarred cards, in order that they may know from the beginning what persons are and what persons are not to be canvassed?
In reply to the hon. Member for Salford, I cannot agree with his definition, picturesque as it is; and, with regard to my hon. Friend behind me, I should say that it is, of course, desirable that all recruiting men should be armed with all the necessary documents and powers.
Soldiers' Dependants (Pensions and Gratuities) Scheme
asked the Prime Minister what answer a canvasser under Lord Derby's recruiting scheme is instructed to return on behalf of and as binding upon the Government to an unmarried man, aged twenty-six, who is his widowed mother's support, and wishes to enlist, attest, and serve, not in any postponed group, but immediately, is satisfied with the arrangements as to help from his employers and dependant's allowance for his mother during his active military service, but feels unable to enlist because absolutely nothing has been provided for his mother in the event of his falling in action; and whether the Government will issue in leaflet or poster form a Government pledge which will supersede the present position?
A poster of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy has already been issued, stating the pensions and gratuities for dependants of soldiers. It is being distributed in large numbers among recruiting committees and canvassers, besides being exhibited at barracks, post offices, police stations and other places.
Is this poster quite a new one or is it one with which we are familiar? Does that deal with the particular case to which I call attention in the question?
My impression is that it is a new one. When my hon. Friend sees a copy of the poster he will be able to answer the question himself.
No doubt, but does the right hon. Gentleman realise that this is one of the difficulties which Lord Derby's canvassers have encountered at every turn during the last month?
I cannot answer that without notice.
Army (Authorised Strength)
asked whether the number of men on the Home and Colonial establishments of the Army, exclusive of those serving in India, has reached the total authorised by Parliament for the year 1915–16 of 3,000,000; and, if not, what margin remains to be recruited?
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. I am not prepared to give figures for the present strength of the Army.
Chatham Dockyard Workmen
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that there are a number of ex-Territorials of military age serving in His Majesty's Dockyard, Chatham, who would be willing to rejoin the Colours if consent to their so doing were given; and will he cause inquiry to be made as to their number and employment, with a view to ascertain whether consent could properly be given to their rejoining without any detriment to the effective working of the yard?
The workmen in His Majesty's Dockyards and Naval Establishments, who are eligible for recruitment, are now at liberty to enlist under Lord Derby's scheme, for immediate transfer to the Reserve, it being understood that they will not be withdrawn for military duties unless and until their services can be spared by the Admiralty. The cases of men desiring to join the military forces for immediate service will be dealt with individually according to the circumstances affecting each of them, on the application of the employés concerned. It would be open to the individuals whom my hon. and learned Friend has in mind to make such application to the heads of their Departments, who are best able to judge whether their services can be spared.
Mercantile Marine (Badges)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has issued a notice intimating that certificated merchant captains and officers should not enlist, having regard to the importance of maintaining British shipping; whether he has intimated that seamen should also be exempted from enlistment owing to the large inroads already made upon the personnel of the mercantile marine for the requirements of the Navy, and that, as sea fishermen are the only remaining class with practical experience of the sea, they may be required to be recruited as seamen in the Royal Naval Reserve; and, if so, whether he will at once take steps to have a suitable badge, armlet, or other token issued to all these men, so that they may be free from the stigma attached to other men of military age who have not, joined any of His Majesty's Forces.
A notice of the nature indicated applicable to captains, officers, engineers and crews of merchant ships has been issued by Lord Derby and my right hon. Friend. Fishermen have been included in a list of reserved occupations, so far as enlistment in the Army is concerned, but are available to be recruited in the Royal Naval Reserve. As regards the proposal to issue a badge, I have nothing to add to the answer given to my hon. Friend on the 26th October.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if the British mercantile seamen class is to be the only class in the whole community who are to be left without any token of their doing their duty in serving as they are at present?
No, Sir. I do not think the hon. Gentleman's description is at all a fair one. As a matter of fact the British seamen, we hope, will be more at sea than at home, and a badge will be no use
Officers on Leave from France (Travelling Facilities)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that all regimental officers coming home on leave from France are obliged to travel via Havre, whereas Staff officers use the more expeditious and comfortable route via Boulogne; and whether he will give instructions, if there is insufficient accommodation by Boulogne for all officers travelling between France and England, that the privilege of using this route shall be granted to officers according to their military rank, without regard to their employment in Staff or regimental duties respectively?
The statement made in the first part of the question is incorrect. Regimental officers have never as a class been obliged to travel by Havre. Under the arrangements now about to be put into force some of the officers and men will travel by Boulogne and some by Havre, but whether officer or man travel by one route or the other will be a matter for decision by the military authorities in France.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of those routes is very much more expeditious and comfortable than the other, and therefore, if there is a preference, will he arrange that it shall be given in virtue of military rank and for no other reason?
It is very difficult for me to undertake what the hon. Gentleman suggests, inasmuch as all these decisions have to be made by the officers on the other side, but I will bear in mind the suggestion of my hon. Friend, and see whether I can get anything done in that direction.
British Expeditionary Force (Postal Arrangements)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that a parcel properly addressed to Private Avis, No. 6846, No. II. Ward, No. 6 General Hospital, Rouen, France, posted in London on 3rd November, was returned to the sender bearing an endorsement showing that it was delivered at the hospital by the postal authorities at a time when the addressee was, as he still is, a patient in the hospital; and if he will say who was responsible for the return of the parcel instead of its delivery to the addressee?
As I have before stated, I cannot be expected to be aware of what happens to individual letters or parcels addressed to individual officers or men serving at the front. If the facts are as stated it would certainly seem that a mistake was made in the individual case in question. I cannot, however, say who committed the mistake nor can I undertake to ask for an inquiry into errors of this kind unless it can be shown that they are of general occurrence. I am satisfied that amongst the millions of letters and parcels which are sent weekly to the troops an infinitesimal portion fail to reach the addressees and this state of things reflects, I think, great credit upon all those concerned.
Munitions
Krupp's Works, Essen
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the skilled munitions workers who were dismissed from Woolwich Arsenal by Lord Haldane, while he was Secretary of State for War, and who obtained employment in Krupp's works, at Essen, returned to this country on the outbreak of war; and if he can say whether any of them are still employed at Essen?
If any such migration as that indicated in the question did take place (which at this date I am unable to determine), I think we may safely assume that, on the outbreak of war, the migrants acted as good patriots and returned to aid their country and did not, as the hon. Gentleman appears somewhat gratuitously to suggest, remain behind in Germany to aid the enemy. I cannot associate myself with the hon. Gentleman's suggestions of want of patriotism.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no such suggestion as he implies, and am I to understand from his answer that he knows nothing about the matter?
Yes. I think my hon. Friend may safely assume that; otherwise, I would have told him so. I have been unable to get any facts.
Cases Before Tribunals
asked the Minister of Munitions if he has yet considered the question of granting a Return of the cases which have come before the Tribunals; and will he have inquiry made as to the number of cases against employés and employers, the numbers in each case dismissed or sustained, respectively, and a summary of the grounds of complaint?
asked the Minister of Munitions (1) how many cases have been tried under Clause 7 of the Munitions of War Act; and how many leaving certificates have been refused, granted, and delayed, respectively; and (2) how many cases have been brought before the Munitions Tribunals, local and general, and how many workpeople have been directly affected; how many of these cases have been brought by employers and how many by workpeople; and how many workmen have been fined, imprisoned, otherwise penalised, and acquitted, respectively?
A Return up to the 27th November is being prepared and will be presented to Parliament as soon as available, showing the total number of persons charged with offences under each Section of the Act, the total number of convictions and fines inflicted or acquittals under each Section, and the total number of applications for certificates and the decisions.
Cost of Materials
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the fact that articles necessary for the conduct of the war are costing us three or four times as much as they would have cost if the old conditions had prevailed, he can state what such increased cost is due to; and whether there is any prospect of an early reduction to a figure more commensurate with the increased cost of manufacture which prevails in the ordinary trades of the country?
It is undoubtedly the case that articles necessary for the conduct of the War are costing more than they would have cost before the War, but I have no information, except in the case of one raw material, as to such articles costing three or four times as much. I shall be glad to inquire into any particular case in regard to which my hon. Friend can give useful information. The increased cost is due to many causes, such as increased demand, extra cost of freight brought about by the restriction of available shipping, and the advance in the cost of production of raw material and in the cost of labour. The manufacturing costs have also advanced because manufacturers have had largely to extend their factories to meet the increased demand, and as the new demand may cease with the War, they have had to provide in their prices for part of their new capital expenditure becoming unremunerative at the end of the War. The costs in some cases have also been increased owing to manufacturers undertaking work to which they were previously unaccustomed. An important factor in the increased cost of labour is the pressure at which work is being carried out, involving, as it does in many cases, the payment of high overtime and other special rates. Prices are now being carefully investigated lay a special accounting staff, and I am glad to say that in some directions material reduction in cost has already been secured.
Is my hon. Friend aware that the Secretary of State for the Colonies stated to this House that munitions of war were costing three or four times as much as they did before the War?
I can only say I have investigated the subject, and I can only find one raw material to which that applies.
Workers' Travelling Facilities
asked the Minister of Munitions if his attention has been called to the lack of proper facilities for men getting to and from work at munition factories; is he aware that from six to seven o'clock in the mornings there is a scramble in the south-east parts of London, on the part of women as well as men, for the Woolwich tram-cars, with risk to life and limb; has he considered the advisability of using motor transport cars to ease the congestion, and is he aware that there are hundreds of these vehicles in the streets adjoining Camberwell entirely unused; and is he aware that on the Clyde there is the same lack of service from Glasgow and intermediate places and that men lose time and wages as a consequence of late cars and trains, although the rules promise them exemption if late in consequence of late service?
The Minister of Munitions is aware that the unsatisfactory conditions to which the hon. Member refers prevail in in some places. At Woolwich some improvement has already been made in the tramway and ferry services, but further improvement is needed. The question is being actively considered by a number of experts on transport questions, but the problem is a difficult one. I will see that the suggestion as to the use of transport cars is considered. Inquiries are being made as to the position on the Clyde.
Industrial Canteens
asked the Minister of Munitions whether any steps are being taken to provide canteens in or in the neighbourhood of munition works where food and non-alcoholic refreshments will be supplied to the workers?
The Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) are dealing with the question of canteens for munitions workers, and have constituted a standing committee for this purpose. I am informed that a large number of such canteens have already been established by voluntary societies constituted for this purpose and by employers, and, in order to encourage this provision in controlled establishments, the Minister of Munitions is prepared to give full consideration to capital expenditure incurred with the previous approval of the Control Board for this object in assessing current profits under the Munitions of War Act.
I may add that my right hon. Friend is issuing a special Memorandum on the subject of industrial canteens, which has been prepared at his request by the Health of Munition Workers Committee, with a covering letter urging the importance of sufficient accommodation being provided.
Will my hon. Friend consider as to circulating the Memorandum he refers to as a Parliamentary Paper?
Yes, that will be done.
Will consideration be given to the quality of the tea supplied? There are many complaints.
The first thing is to calculate the stocks of tea. I have no doubt the committee will see as far as possible that good food is supplied.
Housing Schemes
asked the Minister of Munitions if he can state the number of housing schemes which have been already approved for providing accommodation for munition workers, giving in each case the district in which the scheme is to be carried out, the number of houses to be provided, the rents to be charged, and the grant to be made towards the cost of building?
All the details of these schemes have not yet been decided, and I do not think that it would be expedient to make an incomplete statement.
Are the grants towards these housing schemes being made so that in each scheme the same proportion is being made available?
The principle is the same in every case, but we take into careful consideration the circumstances of the particular case.
Wages Dispute (Ackroyd and Best, Morley, Yorkshire)
I beg to ask the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that Messrs. Ackroyd and Best, of Morley, Yorks, have failed to comply with a provision of the Munitions of War Act to the effect that differences of wage and other questions in munition work should be reported to the Board of Trade; that the firm having failed to report the difference locked out a large number of workpeople with an intimation that they had to accept certain new prices for work which would have the effect of largely reducing earnings; that the firm have refused to meet representatives of the workpeople to try to settle the dispute; and whether he proposes to take action? Since this information came into my hands I have received notification this morning that the prices have been cut down, in some cases 50 per cent.
As soon as my hon. Friend's question was received, instructions were given for inquiries to be made, and I will let my hon. Friend know the result.
Will the hon. Gentleman speed up this matter, because other workpeople working at this particular factory are very anxious to make common cause with the other workpeople unless the matter is settled speedily?
We are already speeding it up.
Questions
Territorial Force (Foreign Service)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he will say what percentage of the Territorial Forces has volunteered for foreign service?
If I were to state the proportion of the Territorial Force which is under foreign service obligation, I should be stating the proportion which potentially might be sent abroad Such a statement would not be in the public interest, and I, therefore, fear that I must not make it.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any obligation whatever on the part of the Territorial Force to go abroad?
There is no such obligation upon members of the Territorial Force who enlisted in the Force prior to the outbreak of war; but after the War they were requested to volunteer for Imperial Service, and, as my hon. and learned Friend is aware, a very large proportion of them undertook that obligation.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if Territorials whose time of service expires in India are being brought home and given their discharge, although in excellent health and well trained?
In the existing state of the law it is incumbent upon the military authorities to bring home and discharge time-expired men who do not desire to re-engage, irrespectively of whether they are in excellent health and are full-trained soldiers.
Steel Helmets
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the possibly exaggerated importance which is being given by our soldiers at the front, officers and men alike, to their not being in possession of steel helmets; that they declare that these helmets reduce the casualty lists and lessen the number of serious head wounds remarkably; and that no French soldier is without one; and whether he can say when an issue of steel helmets will be made to regiments serving in the trenches?
I stated on the 14th and 21st October that helmets were already at that date being supplied to the troops in large quantities in accordance with the recommendations of the Commander-in-Chief. I have every reason for knowing that the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief is aware of the feelings of all ranks under his command in reference to this question and to others, and I have no doubt that he has taken these feelings fully into account in making his recommendations on this matter.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that Members of Parliament besides myself are receiving continually letters on this particular subject, asking that helmets may be issued to the troops in the trenches, thus inferring that up to the present they have not been issued? And is there any other form of armour protection being suggested, for instance over the heart, or anything of that kind?
I shall be obliged if my hon. Friend will give me notice of the last part of his question. With regard to the first part, I would say that I have no official information that large numbers of letters are being received of the kind he mentions, but he himself has given me an intimation in previous questions that it is so. I can only restate that all the demands made by the Field Marshal in Chief are being carried out. The numbers of helmets required are being sent out as fast as they can.
Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will consider the advisability of granting separation allowances in cases such as where a mother, supported by her husband at the time when her son enlisted, becomes dependent on her son owing to her husband dying penniless?
I regret that I can add nothing to the answer which I gave on this subject on the 16th instant to my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham.
3rd and 4th Welsh Regiment (Lance-Corporal James Isaac)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Lance-Corporal James Isaac, No. 975, of the 3/4th Welsh Regiment, stationed at Hearston camp, Haverfordwest, joined His Majesty's Forces for Home service last year as a bugler; whether he was only fifteen years of age on the 15th of this month; whether he has recently been prevailed on to sign for foreign service; whether the lad's father has objected to the officer commanding to so young a boy being taken abroad and has asked to have him discharged from the Service, but has received no reply from the officer commanding; whether he will make immediate inquiries into the case and stop a scandal which is causing injury to the Service; and whether, having regard to the extreme youth of the lad and to the fact that the lad's brother is now serving with His Majesty's Forces in Gallipoli, he will communicate with the officer commanding with a view to obtaining Lance-Corporal Isaac's discharge?
I have called for a report on this case.
Post Office Rifles (Captain Milne)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War if it is proposed to reprimand Captain Milne, of the Post Office Rifles, for a speech delivered by him within the building of the Controller's Office, London Telephone Service, on Thursday, 21st October last, in which he stated that with regard to Conscription the opinion had been expressed to him by responsible persons who, he understood, would assist in drafting the Conscript Bill, that the civil pay of Civil servants would not be paid to conscripts; that the Deputy-Chairman of the House of Commons was of that opinion; that conscripts would receive bad treatment at the hands of volunteers he felt certain, as he was basing his opinion on the tone of the fellows at present in the Post Office Rifles; and that he further said that he would pity conscripts who came under his personal command; and whether the War Office will issue some general statement deprecating such statements as the above at recruiting meetings, in view of their effect upon recruiting?
I am obtaining a statement of what was said on the occasion referred to, but until I have received it, I cannot pronounce any opinion on this matter.
Fort Purbrook Officers' Training Camp
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he can say who is responsible for the messing arrangements at the officers' training camp, Fort Purbrook, Cosham, Hants; whether he is aware that there have been numerous complaints with regard to these arrangements; and whether he will take steps to see that improvements in regard to them are made?
I made a statement on this matter on the 24th November, in reply to the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth. I am informed that one complaint has been received and that it was inquired into, and that the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Command has satisfied himself that there were no grounds for this complaint.
Purchases of Hay (Westmeath)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is now in a position to explain to the House his repeated denial that any hay had been commandeered in Westmeath, in view of the evidence placed in his hands that, prior to and at the time of his denial, the military authorities in Ireland were dealing with complaints against the manner in which they had commandeered hay in Westmeath?
The hon. Gentleman has sent me details of the case in which he appears to think hay has been commandeered. I am informed that the hay in question was taken by the military authorities by a contract of sale and not by requisition. The military authorities seem to have studied as far as possible the requirements and convenience of the seller who appears to be quite satisfied with the arrangement.
Will the hon. Gentleman explain to the House the difference between commandeering and purchasing compulsorily?
I had better have notice of that question.
Re-Employed Retired Officers (Pay)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether in view of the official statement that retired officers who are now employed were not receiving both full pay and retired pay, he will explain why officers who were on the retired lists and who are now being employed receive retired pay in addition to the full pay of their present appointments?
The official statement alluded to is, I understand, the answer given by me to my hon. Friend's question of the 6th July. That, however, related to half pay, which is drawn, not by officers retired from the Army, but by officers on the Active List during temporary absence from duty.
Army Rations (Arrangements to Prevent Waste)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, in view of the fact that in several commands in the United Kingdom the issue of rations has been reduced so as to avoid waste, and that savings of some thousands of pounds a day have thereby been effected without any detriment whatever to the troops, and without any complaint whatever arising, and in view of the fact that in certain commands no reduction whatever has been made in the issue of rations, he will instruct the general officers commanding in those commands to take immediate steps to effect proper reductions?
My hon. and learned Friend may rest assured that the views expressed by the Prime Minister and recited by him in his question of the 18th instant on this subject will be carried into effect.
Does the hon. Gentleman realise the urgency of avoiding waste and of issuing proper instructions to officers in command for that purpose?
I do not think anyone realises it more fully.
Retired Civil Servants (Pay on Active Service)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether retired Civil servants who are employed by the Government receive their retired pay in addition to the full pay of their present appointment?
The payment of pension to a retired Civil servant upon re-employment is governed by the provisions of Section 20 of the Superannuation Act, 1834, to which I would refer the hon. Member.
Land Taxation (Relief to Land-Owners)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the need for economy and the increase in the value of agricultural land owing to the War, he will consider the desirability of withdrawing the relief granted to the land-owners, under the Budgets of 1909–10 and 1914, by which a revenue of £300,000 a year is lost?
The relief referred to is based on average actual expenditure and in these circumstances my right hon. Friend cannot adopt my hon. Friend's proposal.
Does the right hon. Gentleman admit the figure of £300,000 given in the question?
No; I do not know anything about the accuracy of the figure. I believe, however, that the cost has been stated in answer to a question.
Did not the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself give that estimate?
I was aware my right hon. Friend gave an estimate. I did not know this was the sum.
In view of the fact that many Members of Parliament have given up their salaries will the right hon. Gentleman say whether any land-owners have given to the State the taxation of which they are relieved in this respect?
It was considered by the House of Commons inequitable that land-owners should be charged Income Tax on money spent in maintaining their estates and I see no reason for departing from that decision.
Land Valuation
asked whether there is any statutory authority for the promise given by the Minister of Munitions to allow unsettled valuations under the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, to remain unsettled to the end of the War?
Under Section 27 (2) of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, notice of objection to a provisional valuation may be given "within sixty days of the date on which the copy of the provisional valuation is served, or such extended time as the Commissioners may in any special case allow." The absence oh active service of owners of land, agents, solicitors and others was regarded by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue as justifying special consideration.
Is it not the case that this relief is being granted generally, irrespective of special cases?
I have quoted the terms of the Act of Parliament under which the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are acting.
City Hall, Dundee
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that the work on the new City Hall at Dundee is still being actively proceeded with, he can see his way to publish the full correspondence which has passed between himself and the Lord Provost of Dundee and Sir James Caird on the subject?
My right hon. Friend has communicated with the parties concerned and they have not seen their way to assent to the publication of the correspondence for the present.
Income Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has met representatives of employers and workmen as to the best method of collecting the Income Tax as set forth in Clause 25 of the Finance Bill; and, if so, whether any arrangement has been arrived at?
My right hon. Friend is proposing to hold conferences with representatives of employers and workmen on Friday next
asked if co-operative societies registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts will be liable for Excess Profits Tax or any other income or Property Tax under the Finance ill now before Parliament?
Co-operative societies registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts will be liable to the Excess Profits Tax. They are already liable to Property Tax (Income Tax, Schedule A) in respect of all premises owned by them. As regards Income Tax on trading profits I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Baronet the Member for Mid-Armagh on the 10th instant.
asked if the men serving on mine sweepers and patrol boats are included under the heading of soldiers and sailors in the service of their country as being not liable to pay Income Tax unless their income from all sources exceeds £300 per year?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave on the 24th November to a similar question by the hon. Member for Devizes.
War Loan Stock
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state, approximately, how much of the War expenditure of £5,000,000 a day is paid in this country; and if he will arrange a scheme to pay a percentage of this sum in War Loan Stock instead of in cash, so that the recipients would have a fund to fall back upon at the end of the War?
I am afraid that I am unable to give the figures asked for in the first part of the question. As regards the latter part of the question, as has already been stated in the House, it is of the greatest importance that all classes of the community should invest their savings in War Loans, and my right hon. Friend has already outlined a scheme for offering increased facilities for so doing.
Is the scheme mentioned in the question the only one which would make a large number of people save any of their income?
No; but I think we had better proceed with one scheme at a time.
Discharged Soldiers and Sailors
asked the Secretary for Scotland what steps have been taken to prepare a scheme for the settlement or employment on the land in Scotland of sailors and soldiers, whether disabled or otherwise, on their discharge; whether he has appointed any body to advise him on this matter; whether any specific questions have been referred to it; and whether any report has yet been received?
The Board of Agriculture for Scotland have under consideration proposals by the Scottish Advisory Committee on Forestry for combining small holdings with afforestation for the settlement and employment of sailors and soldiers, and are also in communication with the Development Commissioners for the purpose of establishing a training school for discharged sailors and soldiers with a view to qualifying them for rural occupations.
Can the right hon. Gentleman see his way to give his support to any local schemes for disabled soldiers until a general scheme has been brought out, and will he make representations to the Treasury in favour of a Grant for that purpose?
I will consider any practicable scheme that is put before me.
Pit Wood
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether any, and, if so, what steps are being taken to bring into use as much home-grown pit wood and mining timber as possible, in view of the prices of foreign pit wood caused by high freights?
Yes, Sir; the Board are actively engaged upon measures having for one of their objects the increased production of home-grown pit wood. I hope to be in a position to make a further statement before long.
Food Production (Compulsory Acquisition of Land)
asked whether it is proposed to introduce legislation empowering urban and district councils to compulsorily acquire land for cultivation in accordance with the recommendation of the Departmental Committee on the Production of Food?
My hon. Friend will remember that the recommendation to which he refers is conditional upon failure to obtain unoccupied land by agreement, and as there is no present evidence of this, and as also it seems important, in view of the shortage of labour, to concentrate on the land that is now under cultivation or that has recently been cultivated, it is not proposed to introduce legislation at present.
Labour on Land (Shortage)
asked whether the Government has taken any steps to help organisations other than the Government committees in their efforts to meet the war emergency of shortage of labour on the land by schemes of training; and whether steps have been taken to secure an efficient system of co-operation and so prevent overlapping?
The answer to both parts of the question is in the affirmative.
asked how many Government trainings have now been given to women to meet the present emergency of shortage of agricultural labour and at what cost per head; whether additional trainings are being given to meet the increasing shortage; and whether ploughing and other forms of farm work are now receiving attention in such trainings?
Rather over 300 women have been trained under an experimental scheme for the training of women in milking and light farm work, and the cost was from £2 10s. to £3 per woman. A circular has now been issued to local education authorities and to the war agricultural committees reporting the results of the experience gained in this scheme and other schemes, and urging the special importance of training women in farm work. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of it. Ploughing has not hitherto, so far as I know, been included in any schemes of instruction, but the matter is under consideration.
Royal Dockyards (Leave and Railway Passes)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether storehousemen and storehouse assistants employed in Scotland have not yet been given the privileges of other workmen in the matter of leave; and can he see his way to issue an order to the effect that all storehousemen and storehouse assistants lent from the Southern yards are to have the same privileges now granted to other workmen similarly placed, namely, seven days' leave at the end of three months with a free railway pass?
Storehousemen and storehouse assistants lent from the establishments in the South for duty at the Northern bases have been given the same privileges of free railway travelling as are enjoyed by dockyard workmen similarly situated during the War—namely, a free return railway pass in respect of each six months' service. As regards leave, I would point out that such leave as is granted to workmen is without pay and subject to the requirements of the Service. Any grant of leave to storehousemen and storehouse assistants would be on similar conditions, and must also depend upon the requirements of the Service.
Tonnage Requisitioned by Admiralty
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a list of the requisitioned tonnage; and what proportion each ownership ought to provide in order to put all owners on an equality?
I do not think it would be in the public interest to give the detailed information asked for by my hon. Friend in the first part of his question. With regard to the second part of the question, I may say that, speaking very generally and apart from considerations of the particular suitability of certain types of ship, the proportion can roughly be taken as from 25 per cent. to 30 per cent.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that a much larger proportion of certain fleets have been commandeered than of other fleets, thus inflicting great injustice and greater sacrifice upon those who have been over-commandeered?
My hon. Friend knows that every endeavour has been made to secure proportionate requisitioning. Speaking generally, apart from the consideration of suitability, the proportion may be roughly stated as 25 per cent. to 30 per cent.
Gibraltar (Workmen's Pay)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he has yet completed the consideration of the claims of workmen at Gibraltar for higher pay; and, if so, will he state his conclusions and the reasons for them?
This question has been fully considered, and it has been decided that, in view of all the circumstances, a further increase of pay at Gibraltar would not be justified. I may remind my hon. Friend that locally entered workmen at Gibraltar are already in receipt of a war increase amounting to 1s. a week for mechanics and 6d. a week for labourers.
Royal Naval Reserve (Shipwrecked Ratings)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether ratings of the Royal Naval Reserve or Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, after shipwreck on one of His Majesty's ships, are charged for a new suit of clothes rendered necessary by the effects of the shipwreck on the old suit; whether such a rating being sent to hospital after shipwreck is charged for his board in hospital; and whether, when subsequently recommended by the surgeon for three weeks' sick leave and receiving from the senior naval officer a liberty ticket for that period, he is liable to be temporarily dismissed the Service with the right of rejoining after the restoration of health?
Men of the Royal Navy, including Reservists, who lose their Service kits in consequence of the sinking of His Majesty's ships are rekitted without cost to themselves. As regards the latter part of the question, probably my hon. Friend has some particular case in mind, and it would be scarcely possible to give an appropriate reply unless I am made aware of the details of that case. If he will be good enough to give me particulars as to the name, rating, and ship of the man concerned, I shall be happy to make inquiries.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries in the case of an able-bodied seaman of the name of Travis, who was shipwrecked?
Khedivial Mail Steamship Line
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the steamers of the Khedivial Mail Steamship Line are still entitled to fly the British flag; whether three of this company's steamers, the "Tantah," the "Menzaleh," and the "Benha," are under time-charter to Mr. Enrique Behn, a German subject at present residing in Valencia, Spain; whether the steamers of the line are still officered and commanded by Italians, Austrians, Turks, Greeks, and Arabs, or whether any steps have been taken to remove officers of enemy nationality from these steamships; and, if not, what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I understand that the steamship "Menzaleh" is not chartered to Messrs. La Roda Hermanos, of Valencia. The steamship "Tantah" is on time-charter to the same firm, who claim that the steamship "Benha" is also chartered to them on time-charter, but the owners dispute this. There is, I believe, some arrangement between Enrique Behn and Messrs. La Roda Hermanos. The Khedivial Mail Steamship Company state that all officers of enemy nationality have long since been removed from their service.
Hong Kong Dockyard (War Bonus)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the cost of living has largely increased in Hong Kong; and will he, to meet this increase, grant some additional pay or war bonus to the Admiralty employés employed in His Majesty's Dockyard, Hong Kong?
The Admiralty are not aware of any such increase in the cost of living at Hong Kong as would necessitate the grant of additional pay or war bonus to employés who are paid special rates of wages and allowances on account of service at Hong Kong.
Time-Expired Sailors and Marines
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the question as to the position of the sailors and marines of His Majesty's Fleet, whose period of service entitling them to pension expired before and since the commencement of the year, is regarded by them as of great importance; will he state as from what date those whose time expired on or before the commencement of the War will be entitled to draw their pensions in addition to their pay; from what date those whose time expired since the commencement of the War will be entitled to draw their pensions in addition to their pay; and whether in either case they will at the close of the War, on their discharge to pension, receive any additional payment for the period elapsing between the date when their time expired and their actual discharge to pension?
The Royal Proclamation of the 3rd August, 1914, extends the service of any seaman actually serving on that date whose term of service had expired or expires while the Proclamation continues in force, for a further period of five years from the expiration of such term of service, and the Royal Marine Act of 1914 applied these provisions to the Royal Marines within certain limits. Awards of long service pensions to men who complete time during the War or who had completed time but had not been discharged on the 2nd August, 1914, are accordingly suspended. Pensions will be awarded to the men in question when they are finally discharged from the Service, but payment will be made only from the date the pensions are awarded. The period elapsing between the date when time expired and actual discharge to pension will, however, be taken into account in assessing the pension when awarded, and the amount of pension earned by service at the date when time expired will be regarded as secured.
Defence of the Realm Act
Payment for Intoxicating Liquor
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that the Central Control Board have, in recent Orders made by them under the Defence of the Realm (No. 3) Act, added Article 4 ( e ), which prohibits payment being received in respect of intoxicating liquor by any person employed to deliver such goods to the customer's address; whether he is aware that this Article conflicts with Article 8, which prohibits the giving of credit, but provides that intoxicating liquor may be paid for at the time when it is supplied; whether he is aware that Article 4 ( e ) will entail inconvenience and expense upon the customer, because unless the licence-holder himself goes to the expense of authorising some person to collect the money who is not employed in delivering goods or in soliciting orders, the customer must either personally take the money to the licensed premises or send it through the post by cheque or postal order; and whether, in these circumstances, he can see his way to prevail with the Central Control Board to remove an irritating restriction unnecessary to prevent practices adequately provided against in the same Article under paragraphs ( a ), ( b ), ( c ), and ( d )?
I am informed by the Central Control Board that the provision in question is intended to check abuses in connection with house-to-house canvassing for the sale of liquor, as to which they have had many complaints and evidence in various districts. It does not compel the customer to take the money personally to the licensed premises, but leaves it open to him to send it by his own messenger, or through the post either in advance of the order or at any time before the order is executed. I am advised that there is no such conflict as is suggested between this provision and the other provisions of the Orders. The Board, however, are anxious that their Orders should cause as little inconvenience as is compatible with the attainment of the objects aimed at. They are ready to consider sympathetically any alternative suggestions which may be made to them for dealing with the evil at which they are aiming, and, in view of representations made to them, they have suspended the operation of this particular provision for the London area till the 1st January next.
Could not the hon. Gentleman recommend the Board of Control to ask for information on subjects before they issue Orders rather than after they have done so?
Yes, they do ask for information before they issue Orders.
Questions
Mercantile Marine (Remuneration of Examiners)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what, if any, steps are now being taken in increasing the remuneration of their examiners of masters and mates at the different seaports?
The staff of examiners of masters and mates has been reorganised, and new scales of salary have been approved by the Treasury and are now in force.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these revised scales are increases of salary or not?
We have adopted a new grading. We have now three senior examiners, three examiners, and superintendents of the mercantile marine offices, and ten examiners.
Signalling (Merchant Ships)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is in a position to furnish any results arising out of his recent letter to two of the representative associations of merchant shipowners urging the provision of efficient equipment for signalling by night and by day onboard merchant ships; whether he can give any figures as to the number of vessels where improved signalling apparatus has lately been installed; and whether he will consider the desirability of representing this matter to all the different representative associations of merchant shipowners throughout the country?
I am not in a position-to give information as to the results of the letter addressed by the Board of Trade to two associations of shipowners on the subject of signalling apparatus, or to give figures as to recent installations of improved signalling apparatus on British ships. Inquiries recently made, however, indicate that the great majority of British ships of any considerable size have signalling apparatus. The whole matter is at present receiving careful attention.
Hops (Importation)
The following questions stood on the Paper in the name of Commander BELLAIRS:—
4. To ask the Secretary of State whether, in view of the efforts now being made by Dutch and Danish exporters to send hops to this country, he will cause inquiries to be made from our Consuls in Amsterdam and Copenhagen as to the number of acres of hops in each country; and whether, if the information proves the area to be negligible, he will suggest to the Government the advisability of prohibiting the import of hops from Denmark and Holland, and also issue a warning to all British importers as to the risks they incur of trading with the enemy?
To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that firms in Denmark and Holland are offering to send hops to this country as native products when it is obvious that they are the produce of Germany and of that portion of Belgium which is in the hands of the enemy; and whether the Government have made inquiries into the matter and, if so, with what result?
To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government will prohibit the new importation into this country of hops from Holland and Denmark, in view of the fact that the hop production of Holland came to an end after the use of Dutch hops was prohibited in contracts for British Army beer, and Danish hops have never been heard of in the English market?
The acreage under hops in the Netherlands in 1913, the latest year for which information is available, was only 27 acres, and the acreage in Denmark is apparently too small to be separately recorded in the official statistics. I have no information as to the alleged offers of Danish and Dutch hops in this country, but any such imports would be submitted to careful scrutiny by the Customs authorities and evidence of their non-enemy origin would be required. Up to the present time no hops consigned from Denmark have reached this country since the outbreak of War, and only 35½ tons of hops from the Netherlands, and I am not at present convinced that any prohibition of importation from those countries is called for.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give consideration to fifteen letters which I can send to him from people wishing to send hops to this country from Holland and Denmark?
Yes, we will look into them.
Is it not to the national advantage that hops should be imported rather than labour should be employed here in growing hops which should be used for the growing of food?
I understand that this question does not apply to the importation of hops in general, but to the importation of hops of enemy origin.
Agriculture (Employment of Women)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps, if any, are being taken to make known to women, and particularly to educated women, the openings which now exist for them in agriculture and in many other employments; and the means by which they may obtain such employment?
Information as to openings that exist for women at the present time is available at any Labour Exchange, and this information is coordinated and circulated throughout the country by means of a central clearing house. Between 9,000 and 10,000 women and girls are by this means being placed in employment through the medium of the Labour Exchanges every week. In addition, in order to give information to educated women, a special professional register has recently been established by the Board of Trade at Queen Anne's Chambers, the work of which is conducted in conjunction with schools and institutions of higher education and colleges of university rank and associations of women graduates and other professional associations. With regard to openings for women in agriculture, my Department and the local Labour Exchanges are also in close touch with the local education authorities and agricultural training colleges. In this way the training schemes that have been instituted to meet the present needs are brought to the notice of all suitable women who come into contact with any branch of the Department. In addition to the above, women's county agricultural committees have been and are being formed in various parts of the country. These committees are under the auspices of the Board of Trade and in touch with the Labour Exchanges. Through their agency it is hoped to organise the local labour of all classes of women suitable for agricultural work.
Telephone Call Fees
asked the Postmaster-General whether the Post Office possesses powers to collect in advance sums for local call fees estimated on a quarterly basis; whether this policy is being pursued all over the country; if so, whether the Post Office proposes to refund in cases where the estimated amount of calls has not been reached; and whether he has received any protest from subscribers with regard to the new arrangement?
Telephone calls must be paid for in advance; and it is usual to collect the fees for local calls on the basis of not less than a quarter's user in order to avoid the trouble of more frequent payments. At the larger exchanges, where meters are used on subscribers' lines, it has recently been found necessary, owing to the shortage of staff, to deal with meter records and accounts quarterly, instead of monthly. The transition from a monthly to a quarterly basis has resulted, in some instances, in a demand for prepayment being postponed, and consequently covering one or two months longer than the usual period, but the next prepayment will be correspondingly deferred and will be of normal amount. My right hon. Friend is not aware of any serious protests from subscribers on the subject of these arrangements. At the end of the rental year the value of all calls paid for but unused (except those covered by the minimum charge) are refunded to the subscribers in cash or credited to their accounts
British Subjects in Serbia
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information to give the House as to the safety or otherwise of British subjects in Serbia?
I have no information with regard to the safety or otherwise of British subjects in Serbia other than those connected with the different hospital units in that country.
I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the answer given to the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland on the 17th instant with regard to the British ladies belonging to various hospital units in Serbia.
Sir Ralph Paget reported on 1st November that it was practically certain that some five or six British units (about 200 individuals) appear to have been taken prisoners between Krushevata and Kralievo.
On 26th November His Majesty's Minister at Attinje transmitted a message from Sir Ralph Paget to the effect that the Serbian military authorities had decided at the last moment that it would be safer for Red Cross units to leave Serbia for Montenegro instead of for Monastir, through Albania, as originally intended. Sir R. Paget is endeavouring to make arrangements for shelter and food for the hospital units along the roads, and hoped that the first detachment might arrive at Podgoritza on 27th November. The following are the approximate numbers of the various units on the way: Scottish Women's Hospital, 47; the Stobart Unit, 22; the Wounded Allies Relief Unit, 13; the 2nd Farmers' Unit, 9.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the statement he has just read includes all the nurses in the different Red Cross units that were serving in Serbia?
It is difficult to be certain, because the means of communication at present with our own representatives, whether Sir Ralph Paget or Sir Charles Des Graz, are so difficult. I would not like to pledge myself that it includes all the nurses, but I hope and trust that it does.
Board of Trade Certificates
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the desirability of confining the issue of Board of Trade certificates as master, mate and engineer to natural-born British subjects; and, if not, whether he will take steps to bring this about?
Enemy subjects are not allowed to present themselves for examination for certificates of competency as master, mate or engineer, but as at present advised I do not consider it necessary to prohibit the issue of certificates to subjects of allied or neutral Powers who have served in the British Mercantile Marine.
Inverness Poaching Conviction
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the action brought by Mackintosh of Mackintosh, Lord Lieutenant of the county of Inverness, against Donald Watt, a carter, who set a trap and caught a rabbit as a delicacy for an invalid child; whether he is aware that for killing one wild rabbit, of which there are hundreds of thousands on the Mackintosh estates, this workman was fined £l, with £l 1s. as expenses; and whether, in view of the fact that this workman has given three sons to the War and that one of them has been killed in action, he will take steps to have the sentence remitted?
I have made inquiry into the circumstances of this case, but have not received as yet the particulars required to enable me to reply to my hon. Friend.
Scottish Fishing Industry (Loans)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to a statement by the Chief Secretary for Ireland that, in view of the necessity of maintaining the supply of fish, facilities for loans to those engaged in the Irish fishing industry will be continued; and whether, considering the national importance of the Scottish fishing industry, similar facilities will be accorded to Scottish fishermen?
As my hon. Friend is aware, the Irish loan operations referred to are for purposes which it has not been found necessary to deal with by way of loan in Scotland. The continuance of the Irish loans has therefore no bearing upon Scottish conditions, and I cannot accept it as an argument for applying a similar system to Scotland.
Royal Parks, London (Employs Wages)
asked the First Commissioner of Works if the men employed in the Royal parks, London, are paid only 27s, a week, and that the London County Council and the Royal Zoological Society pay their men 30s. a week for similar work, and that both these bodies have now decided to pay their men 3s. a week war bonus, making their wages 6s a week more than the men in the Royal parks; why his Department will not conform to the Fair-Wages Regulations under which the Government should pay wages at least equal to those paid for similar work outside, and why he refuses to grant a war bonus to the men in question; and will he reconsider his refusal and grant such bonus?
My information is that the men employed in the Royal parks receive the same rate of wages as in the London County Council parks and Zoological Gardens, except as regards the war bonus. The difference in wages is therefore 3s. and not 6s. a week. The question whether the Royal parks employés should not receive a war bonus is receiving attention.
National Insurance Act
Financial Provisions
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether the general financial soundness of the Act as a whole depends upon a process of balancing the surplus of certain approved societies against the deficits of others, and that it is in this modified sense that the finance of the Act can be regarded as sound; and, if so, whether he has been advised that this modified degree of solvency can be maintained in practice except by depriving solvent societies of their individual surpluses?
I cannot accept the implication contained in the first part of the question; nor has it been suggested to me that the expedient indicated in the second part is one which need be seriously considered.
asked the Comptroller of the Household whether, in view of the prevalent fear that certain of the original provisions of the Act, taken together with subsequently emerging circumstances which could not some years ago well have been foreseen, threaten to bring about in some departments of its administration a condition of financial deadlock and in others disappointment, he is prepared to take steps of any kind to collect and collate the skilled opinion of officials and committees who have been administering the Act for some years with a view to placing it, by legislation or otherwise, upon a satisfactory basis?
The Commissioners are constantly receiving expressions of opinion and suggestions from persons or bodies engaged in the administration of the Acts. These are always carefully recorded and considered. I am personally glad at any time if suggestions for economy or other improvements in administration are brought to my notice. The particular apprehensions stated in the question to be prevalent are, however, not well-founded, and in this connection I may perhaps refer the hon. Member to my statement on the 16th November and to my replies to a number of questions recently asked in the House.
I beg leave to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment of the House to-night.
Tuberculosis Cases (Average Cost)
asked the Comptroller of the Household whether, as the calculation that the average cost of certain tuberculosis cases to the insurance committee for the county of Renfrew worked out at £327 11s. 6d. is regarded as incorrect, he will say to what extent approximately it is regarded as incorrect and what is regarded as the correct figure?
If the hon. Member will refer to the previous answers given to him on this subject, he will see that their purport is to suggest that calculations of the character referred to in the question do not support the inferences which he seems to seek to base on them.
Is the House to understand that it is quite impossible to say what the cost to any insurance committee is of treating any case of tuberculosis—it must be possible to give some answer to the question?
The answer I give is that I accept the hon. Member's arithmetical sum, but that I do not accept the inference which he draws from it.
Drug Fund (England)
asked the Comptroller of the Household if a new scheme has been drawn up for 1916 for the Drug Fund in England; whether the Advisory Committee recommended it or any conference of county committees; and what amount of clerical labour will this new method of calculation involve throughout the Kingdom?
Revised arrangements with regard to the drug supply are being brought into operation for 1916 after con- sultation with, and upon the recommendation of, the medical and insurance committee representatives upon the Advisory Committee. The clerical labour involved, for which special arrangements are being made, is not expected to entail on balance any additional expenditure.
Untraced Contribution Cards
asked the Comptroller of the Household how many stamped cards are untraceable and now in the possession of the Commissioners; what it is proposed to do with the sum of money concerned; whether he is aware of the loss to the approved societies caused by lost cards owing to the absence of any identification mark; and whether a number of insured persons are becoming disqualified owing to the arrears shown in the books, whilst their cards bearing the stamps are lost to the members but are lying at the Commissioners' offices?
The number of unclaimed contribution cards bearing stamps in the hands of the Commissioners in Great Britain is approximately 300,000. Any card belonging to a member of an approved society is transmitted to the society on application, and the hon. Member is no doubt aware that arrangements are now in force under which societies can place a distinctive mark on cards before issuing them to their members. Sums representing the value of stamps on cards ultimately unclaimed are for the present being carried to a special account in the National Health Insurance Fund. The case described in the last part of the question should not arise, since lost cards which have reached the Commissioners can be recovered by insured persons on application through their societies.
Has my hon. Friend not been able to find some method whereby these 300,000 unclaimed cards can find their right owners?
The loss of these cards dates back to the very early days of the system. The difficulty does not arise at the present time.
Sickness Benefit
asked the Comptroller of the Household if the Insurance Commissioners have any method of obtaining prompt returns from the approved societies with regard to their sickness experience, and upon what basis were the results of the working of the Act made?
The first part of this question would appear to be answered by Section 35 of the Act of 1911. I am not sure to what the second part of the question refers.
There is a misprint in the question. It should have read, "upon what basis were the statements of the results of the working of the Act made?" I will repeat the question.
asked the Comptroller of the Household whether, in view of the effect of the provisions of Section 12 (2) ( b ) of the National Insurance Act, 1911, preventing the sickness benefit of insured persons who have no dependants, which has accrued during their detention in sanatoria, being spent on necessitous cases on their discharge, he can see his way to introducing legislation or find some other means of remedying this grievance?
Legislation would be required to vary the provision to which the hon. Member refers. As regards the effect of the existing law, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for the Wilton Division, on the 17th June, 1914.
Seamen's National Scheme
asked the Comptroller of the Household if he can give any information as to the seamen's national scheme; whether it gives satisfaction to the insured and to the shipowners; what has become of the sums paid on behalf of foreign sailors who are not allowed to benefit; and whether there is a larger proportion than usual of cards lost or untraceable belonging to seamen?
I assume that the first and second parts of the question refer to the scheme under Section 48 (7) of the principal Act. The scheme which has to be prepared by the society referred to in that Sub-section is under consideration. In reply to the third part, I would refer the hon. Member to Sub-section (6) of the same Section. As regards the last part of the question, seamen as a class are, through the circumstances of their employment, slower than the bulk of the insured population in accustoming themselves to the proper disposal of their contribution cards. But the societies to which the bulk of insured seamen belong have taken special measures for the collection of the cards.
Regulations and Explanatory Circulars
asked the Comptroller of the Household how many Regulations have been issued since the passing of the National Insurance Act; what is the average number of copies printed of each Regulation; how many have been amended or withdrawn; how many have required printed explanations; what is the number printed of explanatory circulars; and whether, in view of the depletion of staffs owing to the War, he can give any assurance that the stream of communications requiring attention will be reduced to a reasonable size?
The details asked for in the first five parts of the question could not be obtained without laborious calculations which are not required for any administrative purpose. If the hon. Member will refer to the statement which I made on the 12th July last he will see that I am fully in sympathy with the concluding suggestion in the question. I hope that approved societies and insurance committees will be materially assisted by the considerable progress made with the consolidation of Regulations. The depletion of staff both in these bodies and in my Department renders it necessary to effect reductions in work wherever practicable.
Cannot the hon. Gentleman give the information for which I ask? Are not the Regulations numbered consecutively, and does he suggest that he has no idea whether there are hundreds or thousands which are issued?
I can get a closer idea than that, but I could not give my hon. Friend a precise answer without a considerable amount of work, which I should hesitate to throw, for no special purpose, on the staff. With my hon. Friend's main purpose I am in complete sympathy, and I am doing my utmost to consolidate the Regulations without delay.
Seeing that the Orders are numbered consecutively, cannot the hon. Gentleman give the House the number of the last Order issued, which would appear to be the most simple thing in the world?
That was not what the hon. Member (Mr. Booth) asked. He asked for a great deal more than that.
It is one of the things he asked.
I will not ask the other questions, Sir. ( Questions 70 and 71. )
Questions
Loss of Steamship Silver Wings."
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the Report, No. 7,700, issued by the Board of Trade relative to the formal investigation into the loss of the steamship "Silver Wings" of 1,826 tons register, by stranding on Sable Island on 17th August last, in which the Court commented on the "Silver Wings" carrying only two officers who held certificates at the time of the stranding; and, if so, whether it is his intention to take any steps in ensuring that British merchant ships shall be required to carry certificated officers adequate in number to secure their safe navigation?
I am aware of the Report referred to. I do not think that the present is an opportune time at which to place on British vessels further requirements in the matter of the number of certificated officers to be carried.
Post Office Telegraphs and Telephones
Accounts presented, showing the gross amount received and expended on account of the Telegraph Service during the year ended 31st March, 1915, etc. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 391.]
Vote of Credit
Copy ordered "of Treasury Minute, dated the 22nd day of November, 1915, as to mode of accounting for Vote of Credit issues."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]
New Members Sworn
Brigadier-General Henry Cecil Lowther, C.V.O., C.M.G., D.S.O., for County of Westmoreland (Northern or Appleby Division).
Sir Francis Layland-Barratt, baronet, for County of Cornwall (Mid or St. Austell Division).
Rigby Philip Watson Swift, esquire, K.C., for Borough of St. Helen's.
Charles Butt Stanton, esquire, for Borough of Merthyr Tydvil.
Orders of the Day
Conduct of War
MILTARY ORGANISATION.
NEWSPAPER CRITICISM.
I desire to ask the indulgence of the House to make a personal statement in connection with a question which I addressed to the Home Secretary last Wednesday. The question was in reference to newspaper criticism of our military organisation, and I wish to explain my position in regard to the matter. It is that I have considered that the Government, by their system of censorship—
On a point of Order. May I ask whether it is in order for an hon. Member, or for the Secretary of State, by leave of the House, to make a personal explanation which is in any way controversial? I understand that the Home Secretary desires to make a statement this afternoon as to matters which have not been before the House at all, which are controversial. Therefore, I beg to ask your ruling as to whether it is in order for any controversial topic to be raised by way of personal explanation, and whether, if the Government desire to bring the matter forward, they have not got an easy method of doing so, by moving the Adjournment of the House?
May I intervene to say to my hon. Friend that I had already communicated to you that I propose, as soon as the hon. Gentleman has made his personal statement, to rise and offer a statement to the House, which I think they would think it right for me to make. But before I do so I should propose to move the Adjournment of the House. This is the course which I suggested to the Prime Minister in order that it should not be supposed that anything was being raised, save in conditions in which it could be fairly considered.
I do not wish to raise any question of a controversial nature in connection with the statement which I have to make. I want simply to explain my own position in the matter, the circumstances in which the question was put down, and what has happened in connection with it. I was explaining to the House that the view which I have taken is that the Government, by the system of censorship which they have established, have in substance taken charge of the Press, and have undertaken responsibility for all articles published. With that in my mind, and having certain information as to an article which had appeared in a Russian paper, I addressed this question to the Home Secretary:—
"Whether his attention has been called to the Russian newspaper ' Russkoe Slovo,' of 17/30 October last, in which it is stated that articles on military matters published in certain English papers were made known widely in Greece, Roumania, and Bulgaria by the German Wolff Agency as a proof that the English acknowledged the shortcomings of their military organisation; and whether, in view of the circumstance, the Government will take steps to prevent any further articles appearing in the Press calculated to convey erroneous impressions prejudicial to the cause of the Allies?"
In reply to that question, the Home Secretary stated:—
"I am obliged to the hon. Member for calling my attention to this short but striking illustration of the advantage which the enemy seeks to gain from a section of British newspaper comment. The matter is under consideration."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th November, 1915, col. 312.]
That was an answer to my question. My question was in the nature of a censure on the Government for its lax censorship of the Press, and the reply which the Home Secretary gave was an answer to my question. As far as I was concerned, I had done what I conceived to be my duty. The moment the Home Secretary sat down the senior Member for Merthyr (Mr. Edgar Jones) sprang to his feet with the very greatest promptitude and addressed the following question to the Home Secretary:
"Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the article was?"
And also with commendable promptitude the Home Secretary sprang to his feet and proceeded to read the article. I have nothing to do with whether that was or was not arranged, but, at any rate, as far as I was concerned I had put my question and been completely answered. The Home Secretary has written to the "Times" a letter which, with the indulgence of the House, I will read.
4.0 P.M.
On a point of Order, Sir. Is there anything that the House has heard yet in the nature of a personal explanation?
I was waiting for that.
Yes, Sir, I am coming to it now. This is the letter which, the Home Secretary wrote, and in it he says:—
"The reference in the 'Times ' to-day to a reply to a question in the House of Commons yesterday by Mr. George Terrell, the Conservative Member for Chippenham, requires a word from me."
The right hon Gentleman says it was in reply to my question.
May I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should read the next sentences?
Very well, but I get a good many interruptions. Perhaps I had better read the whole letter:—
"The reference in the 'Times' to-day to a reply I gave in the House of Commons yesterday to a question asked by Mr. George Terrell, the Conservative Member for Chippenham, requires a word from me. Mr. Terrell drew attention to a paragraph in the well-known Russian newspaper 'Russkoe Slovo,' alleging that the Allied cause in the Near East had been prejudiced by the contents of Lord Northcliffe's newspapers, and that the Germans had made wide use of such contents for their own propaganda in Greece, Roumania and Bulgaria. I had never heard of this paragraph until Mr. Terrell put his question down upon the Order Paper; but in the course of the reply I read a translation of the paragraph for which I had asked since the question was put down. I regret that I had not appreciated that the statement was a message headed ' Campaign of the "Times."'"
I do not think it is necessary to carry it beyond that.
Is there any objection to reading to the end?
( reading ):
"I regret that I had not appreciated that the statement was a message, headed ' Campaign of the "Times,"' from the Paris correspondent of the Russian paper. You are fully entitled to have this correction acknowledged, and to have it made plain that the paragraph referred to the opinion of newspaper circles in Paris, and not to opinion originating in Russia."
The point which I want to make is perfectly clear, and I think I have made it clear, it is that the article was not read by the right hon. Gentleman in reply to my question. His suggestion in his letter is that it was in reply to my question. I venture to say, Sir, that he is mistaken, and that I think is the strongest Parliamentary expression which I may be permitted to use. But I want to have that quite clear. A great deal has been said in the Press, I think, about this matter, and it is due to the House that it should make clear that the article was not read in reply to my question. There seems to be an animus somewhere; I have nothing to do with it, and I trust the right hon. Gentleman will not drag me into it.
At the close I will formally move the Adjournment of the House, as I proposed to the Prime Minister I should do, in the first instance, and thereby I hope, at any rate, that I shall satisfy in every respect my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield. Certainly I do not wish to say anything save under conditions that, if I make mistakes or fall into error, I can be fairly answered on the floor of the House. I think the House will agree that I am entitled to occupy a little time in making a statement. I am very sorry to occupy the time of the House on a personal matter, but I think that when I have done it will be seen that it is not my fault that I have to do so. At any rate it is the first time I have had to do so during my ten years' membership of this House. I wish to offer to the House a statement on a matter in which Lord Northcliffe's newspapers, the "Times" and "Daily Mail," have thought fit, without the slightest justification, to make charges and insinuations against my honour, my candour, and my good faith. The matter began, as the hon. Gentleman opposite has just said, by a question which he put to me last week. He has read his question, but has not, in fact, read the article to which his question referred, and I suggest that the question did not quite accurately describe the contents of the article. I do not propose to read the article, but that does not matter, because the House knows now what the article was. The question was a very serious one to put, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman did not put it without due reflection and knowledge, for his question ended by asking me this:—
"Whether in view of these circumstances "—
that is to say, the statement in the Russian Paper to which he was referring—
"the Government will take steps to prevent further articles appearing in the Press calculated to convey erroneous impressions prejudicial to the cause of the Allies? "
The hon. Gentleman has not told us, in the course of his personal explanation, whether he understands Russian; at any rate, I do not understand Russian, and, therefore, I had necessarily to base myself on a translation, and with that translation I will deal with in a moment. I have already said in my letter to the "Times," and I will not repeat it here in the House of Commons, that I had never heard of this particular paragraph until the question was put down by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Chippenham. It follows, necessarily and obviously follows, of course, that I had nothing on earth to do with calling attention to the paragraph in the first instance. I must tell the House the course of events and the history of the case. I have nothing to conceal, and I do not desire the House to judge, without knowing the facts as far as I can state them. It was my obvious duty, when the question was put down, to provide myself with a translation. I did provide myself with a translation, or rather the office made inquiries for me, and as a matter of fact the translation which I got came from the Press Bureau. But when the question was put down by the hon. Gentleman, and when he rose in his place and asked it, he, I understand, was under the impression that the statement was a statement of opinion held in Russia. That is my understanding. I had rather expected that in the course of his personal explanation he would have said so to-day. I did not hear that statement, but I believe that to be right, at any rate that was also my impression, and, therefore, both of us were under the impression when the question was put and the question was answered that the statement was a statement of Russian opinion. Now, that is a mistake. To the best of my belief it was the only mistake from first to last with which I can be charged in this matter at all. But at any rate, mistake or no mistake, I made it in complete good faith. The hon. Gentleman was good enough to say in his personal explanation that he used the strongest word about me that Parliament permitted. I am not anxious to call in aid an elaborate vocabulary, for I entirely accept the hon. Gentleman's statement that he, too, was under an honest mistake, as I was.
The right hon. Gentleman will pardon me; my remark had reference to statements in the right hon. Gentleman's letter, that I was responsible for the question which drew his reply.
I understood that the hon. Gentleman made his remark in reference to that, and in regard to which he said he would like to use a stronger term if Parliament allowed.
Certainly.
As soon as the hon. Gentleman discovered that he had made an honest mistake, and as soon as I discovered that I had made an honest mistake, we both of us did the same thing— we both wrote a letter to the "Times." I do not regret it at all, although in the interval, in the last five days, I have been vilified in Lord Northcliffe's papers because of that incident. For my part if a man makes a mistake, however innocent, I think his only course is, in the clearest and sharpest way, to say to the person who is entitled to complain, that he is sorry that he has made that mistake, and to put it right. On that simple incident, I ask the House of Commons to observe, Lord Northcliffe, in his different papers has seen fit to make charges and insinuations against me which are, one and all, so far as I am concerned, fabricated and groundless. He accuses me—and I have been very careful in regard to these matters— of giving a dishonest answer in the House of Commons; he accuses me of deceiving the House of Commons; he accuses me of deliberately sanctioning a false impression; he insinuates that the paragraph in the Russian paper was telegraphed to Russia for the very purpose of basing a question on it in the House; he suggests that the message was not a genuine message at all, that it was dictated or inspired from London or by the British Government; and he talks darkly of a conspiracy in which it is hinted that I may be a party. I think the House of Commons will at any rate feel that I am entitled, on a matter of this gravity to me, to put before the House, as plainly and clearly as I can, what the facts are. As a result of that series of insinuations and charges —in spite of the desperate efforts which the "Times" have made in the interval to turn the attention of the people on to other scents, including the use of a red-herring, whose name is Sir Henry Lunn— the "Times" have brought this on themselves, that they had to publish this morning a contradiction of what they said from the real author of this telegram to Russia. I am not going to weary the House by reading the whole of the letter, but I will take care that the sentences I give from it are fair. The writer is the accredited resident correspondent in Paris of this great Russian paper, which I believe has one of the largest circulations in the whole of Russia. He writes to the "Times"— and here I entirely agree with him—that he regrets and reprobates a quotation from what he wrote without its being acknowledged that it came from Paris. That is a thing which neither the hon. Gentleman nor I knew about until after the question had been put and the answer given. It is a matter we made amends for. He goes on to say to the editor of the "Times":—
"You are quite wrong when you say, 'It was actually telegraphed to Russia, no doubt for the very purpose to which it was put yesterday.'"
He says to the editor of the "Times" your suggestion, that my telegram was inspired, was absolutely untrue. He says he is totally unconnected with any cam- paign against the "Times" or "Daily Mail." He says:—
"I only did my duty as a journalist, by transmitting faithfully to my paper the news I had gathered in Paris."
I should have thought after that that there was a question of apologies, and that there was an apology due to somebody who had been for some days held up to execration in the "Times." But the "Times," instead of that, now proceeds to insinuate that this letter, which it has been driven to publish, is a letter which the British Government inspired this gentleman to write. I will deal with that statement, which is also absolutely untrue. There were questions put down last week to me by the hon. Baronet the Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham) and by the hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Augustine's (Mr. E. McNeill), questions which had been on the Paper, and which I understand are postponed, perhaps till to-morrow, raising these points, which certainly would be very serious points of criticism against me, if well-founded. Those questions were put down, and it was very natural they should be. I do not make the slightest complaint about it, because the House of Commons is entitled to know the facts. It was my bounden duty to make inquiries, as soon as I discovered what was alleged against me and against these documents, and to try and find out the truth. As a matter of fact, the inquiries which were made on my behalf through Paris were not made until after this Paris correspondent had written to the "Times," and consequently the idea that we inspired him to write to the "Times" is palpable moonshine. This gentleman has written a letter in response to my request, on inquiries by me, which I am now going to read.
Is that addressed to Mr. Mair or to you?
To the gentleman who made inquiries for me at the time. It comes from Mr. Alexis Verner, the Paris correspondent of the "Russkoe Slovo," and is dated the 28th of November.
To whom?
Let me tell the hon. Baronet that as long as I am Secretary of State for the Home Office he may abuse me for anything that is done by anybody on my responsibility and authority, but I am not going in this House, or outside of it, to attempt to get out of any part of my responsibility by exposing public servants. Perhaps the House will allow me to read this letter.
"28th November, 1915.
Dear Sir,
I have great pleasure in assuring you that my despatch with regard to the responsibility of certain English journals, for the failure experienced by the diplomacy of the Entente in the Balkans, was not dictated, or inspired from London or from the British Foreign Office, or any other quarter; but was sent by me on my own responsibility to my journal, the 'Russkoe Slovo,' from Paris. The message was my own, based upon information collected by myself, with regard to the effect of certain articles in the Times' and 'Daily Mail,' upon the Press and public opinion in the Balkan countries.
I am,
Yours faithfully,
ALEXIS VERNER,
Correspondent of the ' Russkoe Slovo' in Paris."
On a point of Order. The Home Secretary having read this letter, I ask whether he is not bound to lay it on the Table?
It is not an official document at all; it is a private letter.
The House will be able to judge in these circumstances. If I may say so, I am perfectly certain that if my hon. Friend (Sir A. Markham) will give me his attention, as a candid and fair man, he will agree that I had something I was entitled to say to the House. I am not going over the accusations made against me again, but it will be apparent from that letter how utterly baseless they are. There is only one other very small point I should wish to deal with. I fully expected that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Terrell) would have dealt with it, but he did not. It is the question of the translation. I said in my letter to the "Times"—the "Times" itself two or three days before having reported the whole of the series of questions and answers, which included three or four supplementary questions—that I read this article in the course of my reply. If only I had had the intelligence to perceive that there was somebody in the "Times" office, or in this House, who would suppose that I wrote that in order to conceal the fact that the question was put as a supplementary question already reported, both in the "Times" and the OFFICIAL REPORT, why, Heaven knows, I would have said so! I was dealing with the point, and the point was that I had made a mistake in one particular, and I wanted to correct it. I, in point of fact, had been supplied by the Home Office with a draft answer, and, as the House knows, that is the way Ministers necessarily have their answers prepared; and that draft answer actually included the quotation which I afterwards read. It is quite true— and I am going to tell the House everything about it—that it was in the course of a reply to a supplementary question that I read the actual answer. I will go further, because I do not want there to be the slightest thing unknown or misunderstood. I had seen this, and I had read it, as a matter of fact, at one of the tables of the Luncheon Room before I came into the House. I have not the slightest doubt, though I did not, in fact, ask my hon. Friend, that it was in consequence of my talking about that that, as a matter of fact, the question was put. That is the extent of my blame. I do not want anybody to suppose that the question, seeing what it was, was not due to the fact that I had mentioned the matter.
But it was quite right to read the paragraph, and, as far as I know, the only remaining point about it is how it comes that the translation of the paragraph is the same, or substantially the same, as the paragraph which had already appeared in a Liberal London newspaper, the "Daily Chronicle." As to that, I did not know it had appeared in the "Daily Chronicle," I did not know it at all. I had nothing to do with it appearing there. I have thought it right in this matter to have no communication with the "Daily Chronicle" from first to last. The insinuation was made that this was a conspiracy. I very much regret that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Terrell) could not throw some light on how he came by the letter, and I very much regret to have to read one more letter to the House, but read it I must. It is a letter from a gentleman who will be well known to many Members, he is the Librarian of the London Library, Dr. Hagberg Wright, whom everybody knows. Incidentally, he is a very considerable Russian scholar. This is his letter:—
I do not.
I am making no reflection on the hon. Member.
Certainly not.
Dr. Wright's letter goes on:—
I am very well content, now that the House of Commons sees what happened, to leave the personal matter in their hands, but there is a really important question behind this; a public question, and that question is, how far is it true that the contents of the Harmsworth Press have, however unintentionally, contributed to the propaganda of the enemy. That is not a question that can be decided by the opinion of some foreign correspondent. It is not a question that is to be decided by inquiring what is the source of a particular sentence. It is a question of fact, and it is to be judged, like other questions of fact, by the evidence which can be shown to support it. I propose to lay before the House, in very short compass, some portion of the material, which will enable them to judge. Let me say at once that there is not a scrap of this material I have got here which has been contributed by any newspaper in the Kingdom. It is, without exception, material which has been noted in the course of a perfectly impartial and continuous study of foreign papers, such as is conducted in more than one of the Government Departments in the course of the War. The question of the influence, which, however unwittingly, Lord Northcliffe's newspapers have been in encouraging the enemy, in disconcerting our Allies, in hardening neutral opinion against us, is a question which has been constantly brought to my notice since I have been Home Secretary by the Foreign Office; and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is here, and he will have the opportunity of saying what the Foreign Office feels about the true facts of this matter. This thing can only be done by example, and there are endless examples. I am going to take a few examples, and the House of Commons will see whether the conclusion which I suggest is the true conclusion. As an example I am going to take a case from the "Daily Mail," and then I will take one from the "Times." The "Daily Mail," on the 11th October, 1915, published a map. I have got here the map. Let me call attention to the date. The 11th of October was the day on which the news reached this country that the Germans had entered Belgrade, and had taken possession of the former capital of our Ally, Serbia. If ever there was a moment when it behaved Lord Northcliffe's papers to be scrupulously careful to avoid putting in the hands of the enemy material by means of which they might influence the East against us, it was that moment—11th October, 1915. Now I call attention to the map, and then I will call attention to actual examples of what the Germans did with the map. The map covers half a page of the "Daily Mail." It shows the greater part of Europe, a portion of Asia Minor, and a portion of Egypt. It is, by its own inscription, supposed to show the vast areas where the Germans are fighting in Europe, and it is headed in bold letters, "The Road to India." The area occupied by the enemy is outlined by a thick black line. There is not on this map any pictorial representation of any army except the enemy army. Round this black line are depicted a lot of pieces of artillery, firing off on behalf of the enemy into space. There is not any pictorial representation of the British Army, the French Army, the Italian Army, the Russian Army, or the Serbian Army. There is one exception to the rule that the only artillery going off is German artillery, and that is that in Bulgaria, by an intelligent but a very mischievous anticipation, one at least of the cannon there is represented as already having been discharged. In point of fact on that date Bulgaria was in the balance, and this was published in the "Daily Mail" before ever Bulgaria took part in the War.
Why did you not suppress it?
As I have said, this map is headed "The Road to India," The only road shown on that map is a railroad running from Berlin, through Vienna, to Constantinople, and so across into Asia. That railroad is placarded in the map at intervals by large finger-posts prominently marked "To Suez and India." This map professes to represent in pictorial form not only the military situation, but also the naval situation. The British Navy is represented by a short black line about three inches long, which joins the coast of Norfolk to the coast of Norway. The German High Seas Fleet is indicated by a line about twice as long, not as might have been supposed anywhere near the Kiel Canal, although the Kiel Canal is marked, but part of it right out in the North Sea, and the other part in undisputed occupation of the Baltic. There is no indication of the Russian Fleet; there is no indication of any Allied Fleet. If you were to put this map into the hands of those persons in the East who were hesitating as to what is the reality of British strength, they would infer from it that the German Navy is twice as strong as our own, that our own Navy could not even bar the mouth of the Thames, that there was no Navy holding the British Channel, and in a map which is supposed to represent the conditions which control the road to India there is not the slightest indication of any Allied Fleet in the Mediterranean whatever.
Why did you not take action?
I will deal with that. I said I would show what, in fact, was done with that map. It is surely obvious enough what is the use which the German propaganda could make of such a mischievous instrument. But I am not content with inference, however plain and obvious. I am going to lay the thing before the House and let them judge for themselves. That was on the 11th October. On the 24th October there was published as a supplement to the "Vossiche Zeitung," which is one of the well-known Berlin papers, an exact reproduction of that map in order that it might be used, as it was used, for the purpose of distributing German influence in any quarter which it could reach.
Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to ask one question?
I do not wish to be discourteous, but I am in the middle of a point; if I may finish with it, then I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wishes. Now, I will take a second example of the same thing. Here is a copy of the German propagandist organ called "Welt im Bild" ("The World in Pictures."). It is a thing which has been started by the German Government expressly as propaganda. This particular copy was sent to our Foreign Office from one of the neutral countries in Europe, with the information that it was being distributed gratis by the German Consul-General. This map from the "Daily Mail" was reproduced in this paper by some photographic process perfectly accurately. The "Road to India" is reproduced, and at the bottom there is an inscription in seven languages, including Arabic—a very useful language, if the Germans want to show the road to India. The inscription says, "This is a. map printed in the 'Daily Mail' 11th October, 1915, with the heading 'The Road to India' and the note ' Vast areas where the Germans are fighting in Europe.' "Any man who looks fairly at that map can see that it was, in the hands of German propaganda, a most dangerous instrument. In order that the inference to be drawn may be made doubly plain, there is added at the head of this document by the German paper, in the same seven languages, "Britain's World Empire in trembling fear of Germany." I find when I examine the bottom of the map, an inscription in Arabic which I have had translated for me. It is, "This paper may be obtained from all booksellers and from newspaper dealers in the Ottoman Empire and elsewhere." I ask the House of Commons to consider that if ever there was an instance which shows that in what I suppose is part of a crusade to tell the truth, it is possible to make statements of the most serious consequence in a way which plays directly into the hands of our enemies, there is an instance on 11th October in the "Daily Mail."
I pass to an instance in the "Times." If the hon. Gentleman opposite wants to put a point I shall be glad to deal with it; but let me anticipate a possible question by saying that this map was never submitted from first to last to the Press Bureau, and whatever we did, or however we acted, nothing can be done now in order to recall the damage which that document has done. Now I take an instance from the "Times," one with which the House is in part familiar, and I hope therefore I can state it quite shortly. It is the instance of Mr. John Buchan's dispatch. What happened about that? Mr. John Buchan, whom many of us in this House know, wrote a detailed descriptive account of the battle of Loos. I have this great advantage over some other people who have made statements on the subject, that I have seen his manuscript. That dispatch was by the military officers at the front very heavily censored—in the opinion of many people, much too heavily. I am not on that point for a moment, and I quite recognise that that is a very fair matter for criticism. The "Times," with this manuscript before them, with every opportunity of seeing from the manuscript what had really happened, actually wrote an article in which they suggested or implied that our military officers in our Army had deliberately picked out of Mr. Buchan's manuscript a sentence or sentences and selected them for excision because they praised the bravery of the German troops. They said so in terms which certainly were so understood. They spoke of a "studied effort to hide unpalatable truths." They spoke of this as "something ignoble" and "eminently un-English." That they implied that is made doubly clear by this —that a noble colleague of mine, speaking I think two days later at York, and relying, as he was very naturally inclined to do, upon what he read in the "Times'" leading article, denounced that particular action as a piece of mischievous stupidity. If it was true that British officers had done that, it might have been denounced in very much stronger terms. But it was not true. I stated the truth about it as soon as I could when a question was put, I think, by my hon. Friend the Member for the Mansfield Division (Sir A. Markham), on the 14th October. This is the truth:— I have shown that the "Times" in this matter wrote—I do not mean deliberately, but recklessly—endeavouring, I suppose, to make some point against the Press Bureau, in terms which caused the public to believe that British officers had been guilty of this shady trick. I have quoted from Mr. Buchan to show that there is not a word of truth in that suggestion. Now I am going further to show the House that the "Times" cannot say now, "Oh, well, after all we made a mistake, but it did not do any harm." "Within forty-eight hours of the "Times" publishing that mischievous and misleading article it was being reproduced in places as far apart as Cologne and Madrid. I have got here—and anyone may see it who likes—the "Cologne Gazette" of 9th October, which quotes the "Times" words for the encouragement of the German people, and for the denunciation of our own officers. These are the words it quotes:— which is so greedily snapped up by our enemies and used to such deadly disadvantage both in Germany and in neutral countries. I have quoted from the "Daily Mail" of 11th October of this year, and have referred to the map. The "Times" made this misleading statement about Mr. John Buchan's censored dispatch on 7th October, and, as I have told the House, it was quoted in the "Cologne Gazette" on 9th October. I will content myself, in order that the House may see what I mean by a stream or tendency, by giving other examples. In the space of one short week—that same week in which the map appeared; not only so, but I will take One German paper, the "Cologne Gazette." I will take that single paper, and I will take that single week, and I find this: On the 9th, as I have said, the "Cologne Gazette," basing itself on the "Times," was ridiculing British officers for what the "Times" itself had labelled, "A Studied Effort to Hide Unpalatable Truths." On 12th October the "Cologne Gazette" writes a long article—I have it here—headed: "A Diplomatic Catastrophe." This consists entirely of long quotations and other references from the "Times" leading article of the previous day. I will quote from the "Times" leading article one sentence out of dozens which are reproduced, and reproduced accurately, by this important German paper. The "Cologne Gazette" quotes this sentence amongst others:—
Hear, hear!
On 13th October the "Cologne Gazette" referred to the contents of the "Times" of 11th October, and writes exultingly:—
"Such cries of distress have not yet been heard in England during the War."
That is the contribution which the "Times" makes towards maintaining the strength of the country! On 16th October the "Cologne Gazette" uses the "Times" leader of the previous day to justify a peon of delight. It quotes passage after passage — and I have checked those passages — it quotes a whole article which begins:—
"Dawn is breaking in England,"
and it labels the whole thing "The Choked Truth." There are people, I know—and within proper limits and with proper discretion they are perfectly right —who say if we have to face bad news let us face it fairly and squarely like brave men. But does anybody really mean to say anybody who understands the methods which are used in order to influence neutral nations against us, or really think that the "Daily Mail" map is a good way of doing that? Is misrepresenting and libelling British officers a good way of doing that, and so providing one of the most important papers in Germany with four quotations in one week in which the people of Germany may read their news of us, and say that the leading journal of the British Empire is using such a tone and employing such language that it is obvious that Great Britain is a dispirited, a disunited, and a defeated nation? I will give one other example bearing on the point, and under this particular head. So far my illustrations have had to do with Germany. May I give the House an illustration of what happens in a country like Spain? In Spain there are a certain number of pro-German papers which are regularly supplied with matter from Germany. What is lamentable is that nine-tenths of the matter comes from Lord Northcliffe's papers. There are two very important papers in Spain, the "Correo Español" and also the one I have referred to, the "A.B.C." No one who studies those papers—and the Foreign Office knows this better than I do—and I have done my best to understand them— will fail to see two things. They will, first, see that hardly a day passes without German propaganda being promoted by quotations from, and references to, the "Times" and the "Daily Mail"; in the second place, they will find that though no special search has been made for Lord Northcliffe's papers—never at any stage has any Government Department made any search for them—other papers are practically not used at all.
An HON. MEMBER: What about the "Daily News" and its peace propaganda?
Let me say at once that, while I am perfectly convinced from what I have seen that far the greater part of the mischief is done by the Northcliffe Press, it is perfectly true that quotations do occur from time to time in which other papers are equally guilty. Nobody, however, can fairly say of me that I have not in this matter endeavoured to look at the matter from every point of view. Perhaps the House will have patience for just a little longer. I cannot by a single illustration convey the full effect, but let me give one. The "Daily Mail" of 7th July wrote a leading article and headed it, "Nearly a Year Wasted."
Hear, hear!
What happened? Can it really be represented that a whole year of the War had passed without anything being done. Without any victory in the Falklands? Without the adhesion of Italy? Without the solidarity of the Allies? With all the sacrifices and gallantry of our troops for twelve months? Take 14th July, the "Correo Espanñol" heads its article, "Pessimism in England." It quotes this passage, and it quotes it quite correctly:—
"We have lost almost a whole year without occupying ourselves seriously with the War."
On 17th July the "A.B.C." heads its article, "Opinion in England," and it quotes the "Daily Mail's" article to the same effect. On 20th July a third Spanish newspaper, called the "El Pueblo Vasco," refers to the same article under the title, "A Year Lost," It says, "The 'Daily Mail' confesses the defeat of England, and uses grave words of despair." On 20th July, the same day, the "Correo Español" returns to the "Daily Mail" article, and heads the passage, "The Rage of Northcliffe!" Does the House of Commons think that that is the way in which the truth ought to be stated in a crisis of the War? It is perfectly obvious that articles written in that tone and temper, whatever be the purpose for which they are written, are playing directly into the hands of the enemy by inducing neutral nations to believe that we are a defeated race. Let me give one more illustration. I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy. I think he will recognise that the instance I am giving is a fair one. I know he will consider it fair.
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give the quotation from the article that says we are defeated?
The right hon. Gentleman will find, on 20th July, in the paper to which I referred, the "El Pueblo Vasco," that the "Daily Mail" "confesses defeat of England, grave words of despair."
That is not in the "Daily Mail."
The House of Commons does not misunderstand this point. If a paper writes day after day in words of gloom and depression, and suggesting that we are a dispirited and a disunited people, do hon. Members really think that you can rely upon the pro-German Press never to make any use of their words except in the exact words used?
Is it rights [Interruption]— is it right—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]—for the right hon. Gentleman— [HON. MEMBEBS: "Order, order!" and "Fair play!"] The right hon. Gentleman has given way to me, and I am quite in order. The right hon. Gentleman appealed to me, and I ask, Is it right for the right hon. Gentleman to place responsibility or blame on British newspapers for an opinion expressed in a foreign newspaper?
It is perfectly obvious, and for this reason: The method which the German Government employs in a country like Spain—the Foreign Office will give you some idea of it—is this: In the first instance, they pick the most depressing, gloomy, and dismal language they can find in Lord Northcliffe's papers, and reproduce them in the various papers which they control in the neutral countries. It is then backed up, and followed by every sort of smaller paper all the way round that will copy it. I do not doubt that in the course of the copying the original gets distorted. I confess it most frankly. But some portion of the blame of that must lie with the people who set the ball in motion.
Why do you not suppress the paper?
An HON. MEMBER: Cannot you suppress both?
5.0 P.M.
I am going to deal with that in a moment. I want to give the right hon. Gentleman who interposed, and recognised that I gave way, another example. I only ask him to think of it as an illustration of what I am trying to put to the House. The House will remember that we had an adjournment for six weeks in July. [An HON. MEMBER: "Six weeks in July?"] Yes; we had an adjournment of six weeks in the month of July. It is a perfectly fair subject for discussion both in the House of Commons and in the Press as to whether or not six weeks is or is not too long. That is a perfectly fair subject for discussion. The right hon. Gentleman will not quarrel with me because we may have different views about it. I do not quarrel with anybody because he takes the view, which I remember the right hon. Gentleman took, that it was better not. But there is a great difference between arguing with moderation and fairness that it is better not, and doing the sort of thing which the Northcliffe Press did. What the Northcliffe Press did was this. The "Daily Mail" proceeded to say something of this sort. I have checked it, and I can be certain the words are exactly right. The "Daily Mail" proceeded to write a leader on the 27th July, and headed it, "Six Weeks for Ministers to Go to Sleep Again." It writes in the article:— in the trenches in Northern France. This is the letter:—
I desire to say, in conclusion, these two things: First of all, it may be very fairly said to me, "Well, if you take this serious view "—and I ask the House to adopt that serious view—"of the mischief that is done by Lord Northcliffe's papers, you ought to have taken action against them." To that I have two observations to make. In the first place, although I have been much criticised for my administration of the Press Bureau, the criticism up-to-date has not been on the whole that I have been unduly lax in the administration of that office. I have heard a great many complaints that more things have been stopped than ought to have been, but it is not so common to get the House of Commons to approve the suggestion that more should be done. I remember the other day, when the Government thought it right to go to the extreme step of suppressing a London evening paper, there was, at any rate, one hon. Gentleman in this House, the hon. Member for Salford (Sir William Byles), who even then besought me to find what he called some gentler way. My first answer to that criticism is that the way I am adopting to-day is the gentler way. If it is not effective it is perfectly possible to take more stringent means.
The second point I want to make about it is this: this is not a case in which you can simply take a single instance, and, basing yourself on that single instance, proceed to take strong measures. It is a question of tendency; it is a question of influence spreading itself over weeks and months. It is all the more dangerous and poisonous on that account, and it is all the more difficult to check or control. I do not believe a single example I have given either from the "Times" or the "Daily Mail" to-day was ever submitted to the censorship at all; and I must just occupy one sentence in saying that I have said nothing about the military correspondent of the "Times," because, in the first place, I believe he does submit his articles to the Censor, and, in the second place, because they deal with technical matters and I do not read them, and, if I did, perhaps I should not be qualified to understand them. I do not know to what extent they are quoted abroad. Everybody recognises the ability of the writer, but, obviously, if there be a question as to whether he in his contributions to the "Times" has written imprudently so as to assist the enemy, that is a matter to be decided not by me, but by our generals in command of our Field Armies. There is one other thing. I assure the House of Commons that I would never have occupied their time about this from any sense of personal annoyance, or from any desire to indulge in some journalistic criticism. I know nothing about it, and I care nothing about it. I have never at any time in my life—at least since I have been quite a young man, when I left Oxford—had any association with, or interest in, any newspaper in the Kingdom. The only thing I am willing to admit as an interest about newspapers in my own mind is this: I desire to take, as I believe every Englishman desires to take, the pride which we used to take in the great reputation of great organs for discretion, decency, and moderation in what they say.
As to Lord Northcliffe, I may be allowed to make one personal reference to him. He is the proprietor and inspirer of these sheets, but I have no sort of personal quarrel with him. I do not know him, and, to the best of my belief, I only saw him once in my life. If I may venture to draw some sort of conclusion as to his characteristics from the writing for which he is responsible, I would perhaps say this: he would appear to me to be a gentleman who has the curious habit of always itching to destroy the things which he claims to have made. I understand that it was Lord Northcliffe who was responsible for Lord Kitchener becoming the Secretary of State for War, and, in spite of the "Globe" newspaper, the House will be glad to know that Lord Kitchener has returned. Although that is the case, everybody knows there are no newspapers which have ever gone to anything like the same length in denouncing Lord Kitchener as the Harmsworth press have gone. Lord Northcliffe, I believe in the opinion of some people, is the father of the Coalition Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] I certainly have been given to understand that Lord Northcliffe waved his arm like a god, and said: "Let there be a Coalition Government, and thereupon there was a Coalition Government; and behold it is very bad!" Lord Northcliffe in that respect appears to be like the Prophets of Baal, who, in moments of extreme excite- ment, had the odd habit of leaping upon the altars which they had made. Neither do I the least in the world complain because he and others desire that we should face like brave men that which is serious and disturbing, and even alarming in the situation; but I wholly deny that the impression which he gives not only to the British people but to our Allies, and to the enemy, is a fair picture of the state of this country. A sober review of the military situation, while it makes clear that the Allies must brace themselves for the culminating point of the struggle, shows equally clearly that the enemy is under a strain at least as severe, and that he is faced with the prospect of deteriorating resources just at the time when the strength of the Allies continues to grow.
It is not too much to say that one of the greatest of Germany's assets at this moment is the encouragement which is given to her people, and the concern which is created in the minds of our friends by the false pictures which is almost daily presented to the world by a portion of our own Press. We in this country may know how to estimate these jaundiced sheets at their true value, but they are a constant source of disappointment to our Allies and of disgust to neutrals, while the German Government find in them the principal consolation for all their difficulties. While professing to voice a demand for more energy or more information, in effect they present to the rest of the world a caricature of this country deprived of every quality which contributes to our strength—deprived of unity, of calmness under reverse, of confidence in one another, deprived of the power of taking long views, deprived of the ability to contrast our own difficulties with those of the foe, and of drawing a new courage, a new determination from the comparison. If German newspapers served the German cause as ill as some of these British newspapers do ours, what is the sort of picture they would present for our encouragement and for the discouragement of the enemy? They would present a picture to the world of a Germany disunited and dispirited, of a Germany which aimed at Paris and never got there; a Germany which aimed at Calais and failed; a Germany which proclaimed a submarine warfare which was to starve England out, but gave it up in despair; a Germany which counted on Italy's neutrality, but ultimately found her ranged against her; a Germany which calculated upon the War being a short one and now finds itself faced with a long one; a Germany which is losing her initial advantage day by day in men and munitions, and which by a long course of brutal miscalculations has alienated the sympathy of every neutral country in the world. If the German papers had presented such a picture it would have been a most imperfect representation of the true effect of all the facts.
They dare not; they would not be allowed to.
It would have been far too favourable to us and far too unfavourable to them. My complaint is, while I impute no motive to anybody, these great papers have for months been so conducted that whether they mean it or not—and I have not the slightest doubt that they are just as anxious to serve us patriotically as anyone else and I make no imputation against anybody except of recklessness and folly and failure to realise what is the effect of what we are doing abroad—I say in that regard this has become a public danger. Of course, if I am wrong, then I shall suffer for it, but I shall, at any rate, have this consolation, that although I have devoted my mind honestly to this subject, I have come to this sad conclusion, if it is not shared by my colleagues or the country to that extent, the British cause is in less danger than I think, and if I am right then I have only done what I think to be my duty in bringing this matter publicly and fairly before the House of Commons. I admit that I should have done very wrong if I had attempted to do this without giving an opportunity for discussion. I should have done very wrong if I had not before I sat down acknowledged that in other respects these great newspapers are constantly rendering great services to the community; but great services, Red Cross funds, Russian supplements, splendid printing, and the gathering of news all over the world, do not atone for or excuse the course of conduct which, in my conscience, I believe, is threatening the safety of this country. I would beg the House of Commons to believe that in this matter I have no interest whatever to serve which is petty or spiteful, and I desire merely to place these facts before the House of Commons in order that the House of Commons may judge. I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
The right hon. Gentleman in the speech which he has just made assured us that he is entirely free from any personal animus in the case which he has presented to the House. I am quite ready to accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement that he has no personal animus in the matter, and I also believe that he has presented his case, believing himself at all events, to be entirely free from party as well as from personal animus. But I confess, if that is so, that I find it rather difficult to account for the extremely, shall I call it heated, rhetorical, and I must say one-sided presentation of the case which we have just heard. If the right hon. Gentleman had chosen to bring to the notice of the House mistakes or slips which may from time to time have been made in the Press, and if he had given to the House a selection drawn with complete impartiality from all sections of the Press and had invited the House and the country to bring pressure to bear upon the Press as a whole to abstain from any comments of the sort which could be of benefit to the enemy or the Government, in that case I do not believe the right hon. Gentleman would have found a dissenting voice in this House.
But the right hon. Gentleman has done something very different from that. He has from the first, even in connection with that personal aspect which gave rise to the present Debate, put himself forward as a protagonist in this vendetta against an individual and against certain newspapers owned by that individual. The right hon. Gentleman has not even alluded to the statement for example which I believe appeared in the "Nation" over the signature of a very well known writer. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is a Radical paper."] Yes, that is why it was not quoted. We have not heard any allusion to the statement of that writer that it would be better to lose the war than voluntary service. That is a comment which the right hon. Gentleman has not told us was quoted in the "A.B.C." of Madrid. The "Nation" is not much read in this country and still less is it likely to be read abroad. I quite recognise that the papers which are indicated by the right hon. Gentleman are at all events open to that part of his animadversion because they are widely read, but that is not a sufficient reason to fasten upon them exclusively for his censure, passing over infinitely worse or as bad comments which are said constantly and without censure in newspapers which more usually reflect the political opinions of the party to which the right hon. Gentleman belongs.
After all, what is the case the right hon. Gentleman makes with regard to the Press. He has told us of passages in the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" which are translated and quoted abroad for the comfort of our enemies. They have usually been perverted and the sense in which they were used in the newspapers in this country has not been accurately reproduced abroad. The point I wish to insist upon is, does he mean that any amount of negligence on the part of the Government or on the part of our military or naval authorities, or any abuses may grow up, and that the danger is so great of chortling in the foreign Press and the dissemination of it by German agencies through the neutral Press, that that is such a danger that we should rather face the continuance of undisclosed abuses in this country which in the end would lead us to disaster? Let me take a single example. The right hon. Gentleman told us that he had only taken a few examples from the number he has in his red box. I suppose the right hon. Gentleman thinks it was a very wicked thing for the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" to point out in the earlier part of this year that we were in danger of a very serious disaster in the War through the neglect of someone to supply our Army with munitions. That, I suppose, would have been a very wicked thing to report; on the other hand, the papers would have had nothing but the right hon. Gentleman's praise for reporting in full the speech of the Prime Minister at Newcastle, in which he said we had never been hampered by the want of munitions. That statement, in which the Prime Minister gave a direct contradiction to Lord Kitchener, might have been repeated abroad, but it was not.
The right hon. Gentleman, of course, would not find in the German Press or the pro-German Press of neutral countries any reproduction of the right hon. Gentleman's speech. I dare say he could find plenty of reproductions of the article written by the Military Correspondent of the "Times," which, fortunately, was just in time to put a stop to this, and which had led to an enormous increase in the production of munitions and the institution of a Ministry of Munitions. That is a test of what the right hon. Gentleman thinks ought or ought not to be printed in this country. The right hon. Gentleman quoted from the "Daily Mail" and from the "Times" two flagrant examples, as they were in his opinion, of the iniquity of this terrible Harmsworth Press. We know the rhetorical emphasis with which the right hon. Gentleman turns over in his mouth the denunciation which he can bring against Harmsworth or Northcliffe. We hear nothing about Cadbury or cocoa, or those other newspapers which from time to time publish much more treasonable matter. It is always Northcliffe or Harmsworth. It is no more my desire or inclination to defend that individual than it is the right hon. Gentleman's to attack him, but I am interested in disinterested and fair comment of the Press. Let us take this iniquitious map which the right hon. Gentleman held before us pointing out the picture of the cannon going off on the Danube, and pointing to a railway marking the road to India, and seriously invites the House of Commons to believe that any foreign Government is going to be influenced in its policy by that map.
The point has nothing to do with foreign Governments. The question is its effect upon the populations of Arabia, Palestine, Syria, Persia, and India.
I have no wish to misrepresent what the right hon. Gentleman said, but I think he will find, if he looks at the report of his speech, that in the course of that part of his speech he referred to the fact that the Balkans at that moment and the Governments there were in a state of balance, implying that the publication of that iniquitous map, with the picture of cannon going off on the Danube, and the picture of the railway pointing the road to India, were likely to affect this balance, and that Governments which might otherwise be favourable or neutral were liable to throw the weight of their armies and their policy into the scale against us all because of this awful map of the "Daily Mail."
I am bound to say I think that is a perfectly childish contention. This road to India! Everybody in this country, and presumably in other countries, has at all events an elementary knowledge of geography. This talk of the Germans getting through the Balkans, and of their designs upon Syria, Baghdad, and the Persian Gulf, leading ultimately to India was common talk and had been for weeks and months. The idea that the "Daily Mail" is to be condemned on the ground that by publishing this map on a particular day it was lending comfort and support to our enemies is to my mind a perfectly preposterous thing, because it was common knowledge that the Germans had crossed the Danube at Belgrade. Let me turn to the case of Mr. Buchan's dispatch in the "Times." I do not think the right hon. Gentleman—I am quite sure it was unintentional — was quite fair to the "Times." I did not know that this Debate was going to take place, and I have not had an opportunity of refreshing my memory—the right hon. Gentleman, perhaps has the paper in his box—but, so far as my recollection goes, the "Times" was not guilty of doing that of which the right hon. Gentleman accuses them. I noticed, and I thought it was significant, that the right hon. Gentleman throughout abstained from reading the passage in the "Times," upon which he was basing such severe comments.
The hon. Gentleman is really wrong; I read the actual words.
Did the right hon. Gentleman read the words?
Yes.
I am sorry. My recollection of the passage in the "Times" was this. I do not think the "Times" did, as the right hon. Gentleman said they did, or at all events implied that they did, accuse our officers of deliberately cutting out from Mr. Buchan's dispatch that portion of it giving credit to our enemies for bravery. I do not believe that the "Times" accused British officers of cutting out that passage for the purpose and reason which the right hon. Gentleman gave.
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman will let me explain. The importance of the case is another matter, but we might as well be right about the facts. What I quoted—and I have got the "Times" article here—was this. After referring to this matter, they say:—
"There is something ignoble and eminently un-English in these studied efforts to hide or garble the truth, if the truth is thought to be unpalatable."
I confess I was under the impression that was the effect of what I said, and Lord Selborne so understood it.
I entirely and absolutely agree with every word in the "Times" which the right hon. Gentleman has quoted, but that passage does not bear out what he said. I agree, and I imagine most of us would agree, with what the "Times" there states, that a studied attempt to keep back the truth or to give a garbled account of the truth is unpalatable, but that is a different thing. The "Times" was not there referring to the keeping back of the passage giving credit for bravery to our enemies. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that the Censor first of all endeavoured to delete from this passage some objectionable words and phrases here and there, but eventually deleted the whole passage, and because he deleted the whole passage these words, attributing bravery to our enemies, had to go out. Anybody who has the smallest acquaintance with journalism—the right hon. Gentleman has told us that he has not—knows quite well, and will see quite well—the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir H. Dalziel) will support me in this—that the very description which the right hon. Gentleman has given shows the incapacity of the men for their job. That was the work of a sub-editor, and any capable sub-editor in deleting a passage of that sort, by the insertion if necessary in brackets of a word or two, would have been able to retain that particular passage giving credit to the enemy for bravery, while cutting out all the rest. The mere fact that he had to cut out a passage which the right hon. Gentleman and all of us feel it was desirable should have remained, because somewhere in the context, or in the same paragraph with it, there appeared matter which, in the exercise of his discretion he thought ought to come out, is itself, in my view, a condemnation of the whole operation of the Censor, and the best thing to do is to get rid of these men and put in men who are competent to do journalistic work.
I therefore hold, and hold most strongly, that the two examples which the right hon. Gentleman has given completely fail to bear out the vehement and exaggerated case which he has attempted to bring against these newspapers. I am not surprised that they do. I do not myself believe that any such case can be made good. I am quite willing, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, to believe that the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" from time to time may have inadvertently, and in pursuit of their patriotic desire to serve the country—I have not the slightest doubt that they have been animated by that motive, just like the "Nation," the "Daily News," and the "Daily Chronicle," which the right hon. Gentleman is careful never to mention in a censorious spirit—I am quite willing to believe that one and all of them may have been guilty from time to time, but I entirely deny that the right hon. Gentleman has made out any such case against what he calls with such gusto the Northcliffe Press. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has entirely convinced the House on what he regards as the personal aspect which brought about this Debate. The right hon. Gentleman, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Mr. G. Terrell), came before the House as a very ill-used man. He thought that a most gross and unjustifiable attack had been made upon him by the "Times" newspaper. I hope the right hon. Gentleman realises that I have absolutely no animosity against him personally. I am perfectly willing to admit that probably he has been rather ill-treated by the "Times" newspaper. I think when the "Times" spoke of his answer as a "dishonest answer" it was using an expression which certainly, if I had been in the position of editor of the "Times," I should have been very sorry to have used of the right hon. Gentleman, but, after all, the case does not end there.
I do not think it at all follows from that that the right hon. Gentleman has quite made good the case which he presented to the House. He referred with great contempt and with some anger to the assertion of the "Times" that his production of this quotation from a Russian newspaper was not in reply to my hon. Friend. The House will recollect that he brushed aside as a matter of no moment at all the difference between my hon. Friend (Mr. G. Terrell) and the hon. Member whom I see on the Front Bench opposite below the Gangway (Mr. E. Jones), in answer to whose question this quotation was given. The difference is this: The right hon. Gentleman, at a time when we all hoped and believed that we had got away, as far as we could at all events, from party predisposition and party presentation of cases, was anxious to bring in the fact that the quotation from this paper had been brought out in answer to a Conservative Member. That was the point. It would not have suited his book to have said that in consequence of a supplementary question by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. E. Jones) he had produced this quotation. Oh, no! it would not have borne the same apparent animus against the Harmsworth Press as when he was able to say, with that sneer which we know so well in the House, and which seems to find its way almost into the written word which the right hon. Gentleman sent to the newspaper, that it was in answer to the Conservative Member for Chippenham (Mr. G. Terrell), showing that not merely Radicals, but even Conservatives—everybody—are united in this hatred and vendetta against these wicked newspapers. That was the reason why the "Times" said there was dishonesty in the right hon. Gentleman's statement that he had brought this out in answer to my hon. Friends.
It was not in reference to that the "Times" said that I gave a dishonest answer. The "Times" wrote a leader headed, "A Dishonest Answer," and the statement referred to the answer I gave in the House of Commons.
I entirely withdraw, but, as I have told the right hon. Gentleman already, I have had to speak on this matter entirely from recollection. I was mistaken in my recollection in regard to that matter. I thought that was the ground of their accusing the right hon. Gentleman of dishonesty. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the author of this much-quoted passage in the "Russkoe Slovo," from whom he has had a private letter. He said that this author declared himself to be totally unconnected with any campaign against the "Times" or the "Daily Mail." The charge against the right hon. Gentleman, of course, is that he cannot say the same thing. He is engaged in a campaign against the "Times." The right hon. Gentleman, who has used such very strong expressions this afternoon, has endeavoured to convince and persuade the House and the country, with all the weight with which he speaks, because his words will go far and wide, that practically universal foreign opinion friendly to this country looks with horror and dismay upon the articles in these newspapers, and, on the other hand, that the enemy gloats over them. I have put down some questions upon the Paper, which probably it will be unnecessary now to ask, since we have discussed the matter, and in those questions I have brought to the right hon. Gentleman's attention, if he did not know it before, very authoritative opinion abroad which takes a totally different view, at all events with regard to the "Times." The right hon. Gentleman has told us that my Noble Friend (Lord R. Cecil) is going to speak in this Debate and tell us that the Foreign Office thinks even worse than he does of these papers. I have the greatest possible respect for the opinion of my Noble Friend, but a more important opinion even than that of my Noble Friend, as regards foreign opinion, is that of M. Sazonoff, and he has expressed the highest opinion of the patriotic attitude, and the high-minded attitude which the "Times" has maintained throughout this War, and has sent congratulations to the "Times" upon it. The "Times" has also been honoured, and I think it is a remarkable honour, which would not have been given without thought, by receiving a personal testimonial from His Majesty the Emperor of Russia.
When?
I cannot give the date; but it is certainly within the last few months, and, at all events, since the War began.
It was on the Russian supplement.
The Russian Emperor emphasised the point that he had read with interest, particularly the articles, written by the military correspondent of the "Times," Colonel Repington, who came under the animadversion of the right hon. Gentleman in regard to that passage which was quoted from the Russian paper. Therefore, whatever my Noble Friend may think we have that opinion expressed in authoritative quarters in Russia—the Czar and the Foreign Minister. Notwithstanding the right hon. Gentleman's view, in Russia, at all events, instructed opinion is grateful and thankful to the "Times" for the attitude which it has assumed. What about France? The right hon. Gentleman, having discovered that he was mistaken with regard to Russia, then said that at all events newspaper circles in Paris had formed this opinion. In the concluding paragraph of his letter to the "Times" the right hon Gentleman said:—
"You are entitled at all events to this correction, that the opinion which I attributed to Russia was really the opinion in Paris."
And then the right hon. Gentleman used the expression "newspaper circles ire Paris." In point of fact, I have within the last day or two received quotations from the "Figaro" and from the "Temps"—
I do not want to enter into a controversy on a small point. The concluding sentence of my letter was this:—
"You are fully entitled to have this correction acknowledged, and to have it made plain that the paragraph referred to the opinion of newspaper circles in Paris, and not to opinion originating in Russia."
The hon. Member must not suggest that I represented it as the opinion in Paris.
The right hon. Gentleman first declared that this paragraph represented the opinion which was current in Russia. Then, in the letter to which I have just referred, he said he was mistaken, and that it represented opinion which was held in Paris. I think his words bear that out. I think that opinion was not held in authoritative quarters in Paris. It was not the opinion of papers of repute like the "Figaro" and the "Temps," and one of the correspondents in the "Figaro" has declared that, as far as he can ascertain, these views did not represent the opinions of the newspapers in Paris, or the current opinion there. I maintain that the right hon. Gentleman—I hope entirely unwittingly—allowed himself to be drawn into a perfectly unjustifiable and unworthy vendetta against certain newspapers in this country which are no more guilty than many other newspapers. And then the right hon. Gentleman threatened, in his concluding words, the possibility of sterner measures against newspapers if they did not take the warning. If he had made it a general impartial threat to all newspapers, I do not suppose anyone here would object, and I, in my humble way, would be very glad to support him in carrying out that policy; but I entirely object to his deliberate attempt to give the impression that, in this matter of sinning against the safety and welfare of the country, and in the matter of loyalty, these particular newspapers are any more blameworthy than many others that might be mentioned.
I do not believe that there is any person, either inside or outside this House, who would impute to Lord Northcliffe that his object was to depreciate or belittle the efforts of this country so far as the War is concerned. Unfortunately, however, in spite of what his intentions may be, the effect has been, in France at any rate to create a very uneasy feeling with respect to what this country has been doing. In the early summer months a number of French Deputies, members of the Chamber, and intimately associated with labour and Socialism, came over to this country for the purpose of consulting those of us whom they knew by association in the, various international conferences which have been, in the past, continually taking place as to the uneasiness of their members with respect to the attitude of this country; and so great was their alarm that, notwithstanding everything that was said to them, and everything that was shown to them, they went back to Paris unconvinced of the determination of this country to fight this War out to its ultimate issue. Later on a good many of us received letters from those with whom we had been associated of a similarly grave character, and the question we were faced with was what was the best method of seeking to get rid of the pessimism which had grown up among the trade unionists and Socialists of France.
I dare say most of the Members of this House are aware that as a result of a difference of opinion in the Socialist movement in this country a Socialist National Defence Committee was instituted. Many of those associated with that committee have been ardent Internationalists for very many years. I myself have been connected with the International Trade Union movement and the Socialist movement since 1890, and I dare say Members of this House are aware that out of these triennial international conferences federations of an international character have sprung up, notably among the textile workers, the miners, the metal workers, the transport workers, and so on. As a consequence of these conferences we became very well acquainted with the leaders of the trade union and Socialist party, not only in France, but in other Continental countries, and the question that we were faced with was what was the best method of conveying to our comrades in France what the opinion of the majority of the people of this country was, and how we could convince them that the pacifist element, for instance, was a very small moiety of the whole.
We wanted to show them that the workers of this country were putting their whole heart into the War. We came to the conclusion that letter writing was not the best method, but that the better plan was to send a deputation over to France, so that there might be face-to-face and heart-to-heart talks, so far as the position in this country was concerned. At the last meeting which was held I was pressed to undertake the preliminary duties, the reason advanced being that I had been connected with the movement for so many years, that I occupied a prominent position in the trade union world in this country, and that that in itself would be a credential in meeting French trade unionists and French Socialist leaders. I undertook the task and went over to Paris, and was accompanied by Mr. Adolphe Smith, than whom there is no man in this country with a better acquaintance with the leaders of the Internationalist, Socialist and trade union movement, and who in addition to that has a perfect knowledge of the French language, it having, as a matter of fact, been stated that he is a better orator in French than in English.
Thus equipped, when we reached Paris, the first thing we did was to get in touch with the secretary of the French Socialist party and the secretary of the Socialist party of the Paris Arrondissement. Having met them, and had a talk with them, it was arranged that the following day we should meet their executive. This was done, and we had an opportunity of placing before them in very full detail what we believed to be the real position and attitude of the workers of this country with respect to the War. At that preliminary meeting we discovered that whatever the intentions of the "Daily Mail" or "Times" may be, it was their generally pessimistic attitude that was the foundation of the pessimism and doubt of the French people. One of the things said to us was, "Why do you not suppress them?" We had to explain that in this country the freedom of the Press was a thing which we deeply cherished, and that a newspaper was permitted the most extreme latitude before anything was done. One of the things I myself have wondered at was that the Government should have taken steps to prosecute the "Labour Leader," which, so far as its influence was concerned, was infinitesimal compared with the "Daily Mail," and should have left the bigger sinner alone.
6.0 P.M.
Then we took the trouble to visit the whole of the French offices of our British newspapers in Paris, and, speaking with their special correspondents, again we found a unanimous opinion that the articles in the "Daily Mail" and "Times," which were largely quoted in the French newspapers, had had a most disastrous influence upon the French nation. In this country the cry of the "Daily Mail," or one might call it "the raging, tearing propaganda with respect to Conscription," had an evil influence not only with respect to munitions, but on labour unrest generally. It has had a blighting influence at home as well as in France. After these preliminary meetings, we had an opportunity of meeting a member of the French Cabinet—M. Sembat, the Minister of Public Works, who was a Socialist before he joined the Government—and from him we received the same impression as to the evil influence of the writings contained in these two newspapers. Later on we had an opportunity of meeting, in one of the committee rooms of the French Chamber of Deputies, the unified Socialist party, consisting of something like 100 members. We had an opportunity of dealing with the whole problem. Questions were asked and answered, so far as it was possible to answer them, and the result of the meeting was that the air was cleared, more particularly in respect of what we were doing in this country. One question was put, namely, why did we not accept Conscription, and it was pointed out that France had Conscription. My reply was to ask if any of them knew of anything similar to a Volunteer Army of 3,000,000 men having been enrolled in the space of twelve months. They had to acknowledge that there was no parallel for it in the world's history. Again, it was pointed out to them that it was impossible, as a consequence of our not reckoning ourselves to be a military Power, that we could arm and equip these 3,000,000 men as promptly as we should like to do, and that if we had had Conscription we could not have put more men into the field than we had done. Then I suggested to them that it ought to be remembered that when the understanding between their country and ours was entered into they themselves never expected that in the event of their being attacked we should send more than our small Expeditionary Force to their aid; that Britain's province was the sea, and that they had to ask themselves the question whether or not we had accomplished that part of our task. In addition to that, I was in a position to give them the then data with respect to the Ministry of Munitions. That had a very strong influence upon that party. They believed that the best thing that could be done would be for prominent English trade unionists to go over to France and address meetings of the workers in all the great provincial towns and cities.
Question!
After leaving that meeting, arrangements were made whereby we should have an interview with President Poincaré himself. There, again, we were enabled to give him information with respect to alleged troubles of which the "Daily Mail" were not guilty — the alleged labour troubles in this country. I was able to give the statistics from the "Board of Trade Gazette" showing that since the commencement of the War, leaving out the South Wales trouble, labour troubles in this country had been very small and unimportant, and that statements to the contrary were actually misleading. Upon the point of the South Wales bother, not only were the people of whom I have already spoken anxious to know the truth, but President Poincaré himself was also very anxious to know more about it than it had been possible to learn from the columns of the newspapers. Being closely associated with South Wales miners' leaders, I was in a position to give the complete history of that trouble, pointing out to the President that while what I said explained the position it did not justify the action of the men. The President did me the honour of saying that my statement had cleared his mind of a great many doubts, that he thought my phrase "explains but does justify" was a happy one, and that that particular trouble was more clear to his mind than had been the case previously. So much was he impressed with the statement of facts we were able to place before him, that he supported the suggestion that a provincial tour of labour men from England would have a most beneficial influence. Thereupon the French Socialist party undertook to organise meetings for the education, not only of working-class opinion, but of opinion nationally, as to where this country stood in respect to the War.
I have spent something like eight weeks altogether in France since the month of July, and in that time I have addressed between twenty and thirty meetings in the chief provincial towns, such as Brest, Rennes, Toulouse, Narbonne, Lyons, Marseilles, Paris itself, and numerous others. I can say, without fear of contradiction, that in every one of those towns, whether it was newspaper men we were meeting, or the maire and councillors of the town, or the deputies of the town, or the professors of the colleges, or the medical profession, it was a case of all ranks being imbued with the great blighting influence of the quotations from the "Daily Mail" and the "Times." I never had another newspaper quoted to me in any of those towns. It may be confessed that, so far as France is concerned, they are like a good many people in this country; they still look up to the "Times" as a journal of fairness and one of authority. Its opinions are still looked upon as being the opinions of the people of this country. Therein lies the greatness of the harm that their pessimistic attitude has caused so far as France is concerned. I think that, on the whole, the evil, more particularly in these towns, has been corrected. I may also say that Mr. Seddon, the President of the Trades Union Congress at Bristol, addressed a series of meetings, and that the hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. G. H. Roberts) also addressed a series of meetings. One of the greatest and most convincing things to trade union and Socialist opinion in France was the fact that at the Trades Union Congress out of 607 delegates only seven could be found prepared to vote in condemnation of the majority policy of the Labour party in this House. The fact of that overwhelming vote did very much to solidify and steady trade union and Socialist opinion in France. It would be a good thing if we on this side could arrange for reciprocal visits from some of the French leaders. On the whole, there can be no doubt of the evil influence that the writings and articles in the "Daily Mail" have had upon French public opinion. I might add that Mr. Smith and myself were so anxious to gather all kinds of opinions that we did not content ourselves with hearing the opinions expressed by professors, journalists, or anybody else, but we entered into conversation with people sitting in the cafes or on the boulevards, and we also went into the working-class quarters so that we might enter into conversation with the workers in order to find out what their opinions were. The conclusion that each of us came to was the conclusion I have endeavoured to place before the House to-night.
I shall consider it a favour if the Treasury Whip will ask the Home Secretary to come back, as I have some personal matters to deal with, and I would rather that he were in his place. With reference to what was said by the hon. Member who has just sat down, it seems to me very extraordinary that he should have to complain against the "Daily Mail" and the "Times," when every newspaper that is published in France is first censored by the French (Government and is not allowed even to appear unless the French Government approve of what is said. So far from there being a strong feeling in France against Conscription in this country, I believe the fact is exactly the opposite. I want to bring the House back to the subject matter upon which this Debate arose. The matter is a very serious one. One tale appears to be very good until the other is told. I desire to say, first of all, that I do not know Lord Northcliffe. I have never met him, and although I am a friend of Mr. John Buchan, I have not seen him since he was at my house some months ago, and I have not seen him since this trouble began. But I do know how the incident arose in connection with this question. The House must first understand the position of the office over which the Home Secretary presides. Neither the House nor the country know anything about this matter. The head of this Department is Mr. C. F. Masterman, formerly a Member of this House.
What Department?
I am coming to that directly. The hon. Member might have the patience to wait until I had finished my sentence. I commenced to say that the head of the Department charged with this business is Mr. Masterman, and his assistant is a Mr. Mair, who was formerly on the "Daily Chronicle" staff. The hon. Member asked, "What is the Department and what is its business?" I cannot name what that Department is. I can only say that it is the Department which is charged with providing the Government with information respecting all reports that appear in foreign papers. Mr. Masterman receives for this duty a salary of £1,200 a year, paid out of the Secret Service Fund—
That is a waste.
Which he has had, I am told, since he resigned the position of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Mr. Mair is receiving the salary—I do not know whether or not it is charged on the public funds—of £500 as his assistant. It is important to remember that Mr. Masterman is on the staff of the "Daily Chronicle." He writes leading articles for the "Daily Chronicle," and has contributed, as everyone knows, articles to the "Daily Chronicle" from time to time under his own signature. Therefore we have this curious position: We have a Government official, charged with this responsible office, who is communicating and sending communications to party newspapers of which he happens to be a strong supporter. Let us see the source from which these reports came. We have an office here under the charge of two gentlemen who have both been associated with the "Daily Chronicle." What is the "Daily Chronicle"? It is part of this cocoa and coffee Press which it seems to me should have received greater condemnation than the "Times." On 22nd October, about the same time that the Home Secretary was quoting the iniquities of the "Times," there appeared an article entitled "National Unity in Danger"—"Conspiracy against the Cabinet"—"Fomenting Discontent"—"Plot Unmasked." The whole of this statement in the "Daily Chronicle" was without one word of foundation. There was not a word of truth in the whole of the charge made by the "Daily Chronicle" that there was a conspiracy to displace the Government, and yet you make no mention, and the Home Secretary makes no mention, of the fact that this paper had published something far more detrimental to the cause of honesty. Is that honest?
Let us carry it a little further. The Home Secretary complained of the word "dishonest." I believe it is quite a Parliamentary expression. It was used here by the late Mr. Chamberlain when an Amendment was moved in 1901 by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman. Mr. Chamberlain described the attitude of the Liberal party and what they said as dishonest, and characterised the Amendment moved from those benches as dishonest. The whole burden of that speech was the word "dishonesty," applied time after time by Mr. Chamberlain. The "Times" merely vised, in dealing with politics, the same word as has been repeatedly used in this House in connection with the matter as to how public men deal with these questions. The standard of honour in politics is not the standard in ordinary life. [Laughter.] Surely there is no doubt about that.
made an observation which was not heard in the Reporters' Gallery.
I think the Noble Lord might remember, before he interrupts, that he will say and vote directly the opposite, now that he has become a member of the Government, to what he did when on the other side of the House. I say there is not the same standard of honesty in political life, despite the view of the Noble Lord, and there has never been the same standard of honour among party politicians as there is between man and man. Therefore, I do not read that article in the "Times" as being, to quote the Home Secretary's own words, a charge made against his honour and good faith. It was a charge that he had used rather slippery methods in getting his knife into the "Times"—I think very unfairly, as the case has developed. My right hon. Friend read a letter written by an anonymous correspondent. He did not tell the House to whom the letter had been addressed. I know how that communication came about—at all events, I think I do. I will ask the Home Secretary a simple question now to elucidate the matter. Has not this Intelligence Bureau over "which he presides been in communication with the Paris correspondent of the "Russkoe Slovo"?
My hon. Friend, as well as other hon. Members, put down last week some questions inviting me to find out whether there was any conspiracy, and, if so, to unmask it. I did my best, and through the Foreign Office I sent a message to Paris, as the result of which inquiries were made, and the letter which I read to the House, signed by this correspondent, was received. That is the mystery. That is all I know about it.
To whom was the letter addressed?
I have told my hon. Friend, and he will not get me to change my answer, that it was addressed to the official who was making these inquiries on my instructions and on my behalf, and I am quite content to take the whole of the attack the hon. Member makes upon me.
An HON. MEMBER: Masterman!
No, it was not. I am not going to give away any permanent officials.
In point of fact I understand it was addressed to Mr. Mair. I have no doubt about it. Here you have a Department presided over by Mr. Masterman and Mr. Mair, who are obtaining and cutting out from these papers day by day reports from the foreign Press, and I say that the "Times" and "Daily Mail" are being singled out, and have not had fair treatment, if the "Daily Chronicle" can be allowed to publish an article like this which I have just read and never receive one word of condemnation at the hands of the Home Secretary.
An HON. MEMBER: Did it appear in the foreign Press?
We do not know that. Mr. Masterman and Mr. Mair are the people who have the searching of these papers. I do not say they will not take out and not report to the Cabinet anything that is said against the "Daily Chronicle," but it is imposing an absolutely wrong duty on any man to say that the person who employs him in his private capacity as a journalist should, at the same time, be the censor over other people. The whole thing is quite indefensible. An hon. Friend tells me it was quoted in the foreign Press. I want to know if these kind of articles, which have appeared, for instance, in the "Nation," the "Daily News," and in other papers, have not been equally used and equally distorted by the foreign Press in the same way as the "Times" and the "Daily Mail." You may say what you like about the "Times" and the "Daily Mail," but they have never faltered in their purpose of endeavouring to bring the War to a successful conclusion. All they have said is "be up and doing, and do not go to sleep." They have pointed out from time to time the numerous blunders you have committed, but all their efforts have been directed to one end alone—the successful prosecution of the War. That is their crime, that they have taken this action against you because you have failed, as I say here in my place in the House of Commons, to govern as you ought to. Take the case of Colonel Repington. Colonel Repington was attacked in this article in the "Russkoe Slovo." There is not one single word that Colonel Repington has written in the "Times" which has not been passed by the Press Censor, and what is the good of hon. Members and party papers holding Colonel Repington up to public odium when all that he has written has been passed by your own Press Censor? And then you say this man is a danger, and you, the Government, associate yourself with this attack on Colonel Repington when, in point of fact, everything he has written you yourself have passed through your censorship. Is that fair dealing? What did Colonel Repington further do? Was it not Colonel Repington alone who in the first place called attention to the shortage of munitions, and was it not the Minister of Munitions who himself said that if we had had munitions we should have driven the Germans out of Belgium? Who is it therefore who failed—the "Times" or the Government? What was the answer that the Government put forward to Colonel Repington's statement? They established the Ministry of Munitions. Why had nothing been done before? Because this House and the country had been kept in complete ignorance of what was going on at the front. The House did not know that many of our gunners had not got even one round per gun per day at the time Colonel Repington made his charge in the "Times." Only those who had friends and relatives among the soldiers were aware of the awful shortage of munitions at that time. No one knows better than my right hon. Friend that Colonel Repington rendered a great public service to the Empire. I think my right hon. Friend takes these attacks too much to heart. Every one here takes the rough and tumble of party politics. He is a little over susceptible to these charges against his honour. I am sure the "Times" would be the last to accuse him of personal dishonesty in any shape. His personal honour we all know, stands above any question whatever. His attitude as a party politician anxious to defend his Department is another matter altogether, in spite of the Noble Lord (Lord Robert Cecil).
I do not draw that distinction.
I do my best, with my humble ability, not to draw that distinction in any small part I may play in politics. I have always said what I believe and voted accordingly. I do not believe in saying, when you are in opposition, exactly the opposite of what you do when you come on to these Benches. With regard to this red herring which the right hon. Gentleman drew over the track of the main issue, what does it all amount to? He has left out everything that the Liberal Press may have said. He has left out all that the "Chronicle," the "Daily News" and the "Nation" may have said and which the enemy may have seen. We do not know whether those statements have appeared in the foreign Press. All we know is that the reports; which have been made by Mr. Masterman and his sub-lieutenant are chiefly those referring to the Northcliffe Press. That is the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. What is the real charge? It is that they published a map headed the "Road to India." Anyone who reads the German papers—I take the German papers and have them translated for me —knows that in point of fact for months past the Germans themselves had been talking about this "Road to India."
An HON. MEMBER: That is where Lord Northcliffe got it.
I do not know whether he got it from the German papers or not, but it was a natural conclusion to arrive at when publishing a map, which was after all purely diagrammatical. The mistake, if it has proved to be a mistake, was to put this satirical heading, "The Road to India," because we all know that the Germans will never get to India.
It was not a joke.
I do not quite know in what context this map was used or whether it was at the time of the Serbian business or not, because that is rather important.
Whether it was a joke or not, it was perpetrated on the 11th October, two or three days before Bulgaria declared herself on the side of our enemies.
An hon. Friend tells me that that decision had actually been taken at this very moment. What I do not know, and what I think is material to the position, is whether at the time that the "Daily Mail" published this map they were making an attack on the Government for their failure to relieve Serbia. That is, I think, the whole point of the matter, whether at this date, or thereabouts, the "Daily Mail" was making an attack upon the Government for their failure to move, and for their dilatoriness, and were asserting that by their failure to move they placed Serbia in the position which she is in to-day. Does that coincide with the publication of this map?
While we have reports taken from the foreign Press under the direction of two gentlemen associated with the "Daily Chronicle"—both gentlemen, I have no doubt, of high character— it is not likely that the imprint of fairness which the House is entitled to have can be reasonably expected. The House must remember, as I have already said, and as I now repeat, that these two gentlemen who have taken these reports out of the foreign Press are employed or have been employed by the "Daily Chronicle." It is a monstrous injustice. It is undesirable that partisan feeling should arise. If a more judicious ruling by the Treasury had prevailed to the effect that no man should take any office or any work other than the work he is paid for by the Government, and that he should have that salary and that salary alone, no one would have had any cause to complain. What we complain of is that while a man is receiving a salary from the Government, he should be at the same time employed by rival newspapers and should edit and bring before the Government the writings of their opponents, while so far as their own newspapers go it is immaterial.
I do not desire to associate myself with all the observations of my hon. Friend (Sir A. Markham), but I do feel with him, and I think with a good many other Members of the House, that this incident, which has been introduced, by your very generous ruling, Mr. Speaker, under the guise of a personal explanation, has been made rather too much of. To me it is like making a mountain out of a mole-hill. I cannot help feeling that the very prolonged and detailed, and I might say exaggerated statement by my right hon. Friend (Sir J. Simon) was a little out of scale. The one question which I think he should have submitted to himself before expounding the misdoings of the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" was this: Are they pro-German? Do they really desire that our enemies should win? He specifically repudiated that interpretation, as I understood him, and I suppose there is no Member who thinks for a moment that either the "Times" or the "Daily Mail" are a bit less patriotic or a bit less anxious that our arms should be victorious than any Member of the House is. It seems to me that this is one more attack on the freedom of the Press, and it is that and that alone which has brought me to my feet. I had occasion the other day to be in disagreement with the Home Secretary about the Government action towards the "Globe" newspaper. Sometime before that I was in opposition to the Government about their treatment of a paper of a very different character, namely, the "Labour Leader."
I stand for the freedom of the Press, and I say that the long assault today has been an attack on the freedom of the Press. If there is really any great importance in the statements and maps and opinions which have been promulgated by these two newspapers, let them be answered. That is the proper way to deal with erroneous or false statements. If it is worth while let them be answered. How can any newspaper profit by opinions which are not shared by its readers? The "Daily Mail" is said to have a very large circulation and a very wide distribution over the capitals and large towns of Europe. No doubt that is true. I do not deny it. If it is so, that is due to business enterprise. It is open to anyone else to establish an equally good circulation and distribution. The "Daily News" and the "Daily Chronicle" are not interfered with in any way in obtaining the same publicity. I said the other day in regard to the "Globe" newspaper that newspapers cannot live on false statements. Neither can they live on opinions which are unwelcome to their readers. As a matter of fact, I always look to the "Times" for quotations of German pessimism from German newspapers which let down Germany, or, at any rate, reveal the weaknesses of their country and the troubles that are besetting Germany. Every day the "Times" gives us a column of that sort of thing. I do not want our newspapers and our newspaper articles to be all coleur du rose. I think there is far too-much of that already. There is far too much optimism in our newspapers. They are always prophesying smooth things. I am not sure that the country has not been seriously misled and that recruiting has not been seriously hindered by the constant statements of our leading statesmen, of leading public speakers, and of leading editors in the newspapers that Britain is absolutely sure to win. I believe Britain will win. I believe the Allies will win in this War, but if that is always set before the people as a certainty you will not find the same sympathies as you would if the people thought the issue was doubtful. It is not won yet. Victory is still in the balance. It is unwise to be saying constantly, "We are going on all right, we are going to win, we are pushing them back here and there and everywhere," and not telling us the whole truth. I am no admirer of the opinions of the "Times" or of the "Daily Mail," and it is not on the ground of their opinions that I am defending them. I am defending them simply on the ground of the liberty of the Press, and I say that this method of treating them is an attack upon that liberty. I believe I am right in saying that the motto of the Aberdeen University is this: "They have said—what have they said?—let them say."
After what the hon. Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham) has said, it is right that I should say at once what I have got to say, but I do not intend to detain the House very long. The hon. Member was good enough to say that he thought there was a great distinction between personal honour and political honour. That would be a very bad thing for this country. The hon. Gentleman was also good enough to suggest that I have, since I have taken office, repeatedly, as I understood him, supported things which I have repudiated when I was in opposition.
No, no!
HON. MEMBERS: He said so.
I understood him to say that.
I am saying "No" to the hon. Member's suggestion.
I am not aware of any occasion on which I have done that. I do not, however, want to detain the House on any personal question this evening. I am not going into the attacks which the hon. Member made on Mr. Masterman, or his office, or on Mr. Mair. I think it is an unfortunate practice to attack those who are not present and who cannot defend themselves. I am not going into the question of the attacks upon my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. He dealt with them with his usual care and his usual lucidity. I think that anyone who believes, after the right hon. Gentleman's explanation, that he was guilty of any personal dishonour or personal dishonesty, or any attempt deliberately to deceive this House is beyond the reach of argument, and I shall certainly not attempt to reach him.
Does the right hon. Gentleman imply that anyone, or that the hon. Baronet (Sir A. Markham), made such a suggestion?
I may have misunderstood him. It may be that he thinks there is a difference in the vocabulary in politics and in personal matters, as he thinks there is a difference in personal and political honour. If it had been said that I was guilty of "slippery proceedings," I should regard that as an accusation of personal dishonesty. I want to say one word by way of clearing matters up about my own position. I have no kind of ill-will towards Lord Northcliffe. On the contrary, as far as I have had the honour of his acquaintance, it has always been of a most friendly character, and I am grateful to him for many kindnesses which he has done me. I have no ill-will towards the "Times." I have no ill-will towards the "Daily Mail." I have been a contributor to both those journals, and what I am about to say in regard to them I am going to say without making the slightest imputation upon their patriotic motives, or upon their desire to serve their country. If these newspapers happen to have been brought to my notice officially, much more often than other newspapers, it is no doubt in part due to the fact that the "Times" by a number of people, officially and unofficially, in foreign countries—
By whom?
By a number of people officially and unofficially in foreign countries. The reason is partly this, that the "Times" abroad occupies an entirely special position. Everybody who has studied the foreign Press, or who has seen anything of foreign papers, knows that abroad the "Times" is regarded as an official or semi-official organ, and that it is quoted as such. It has an entirely different position from any other paper, and a statement which might pass quite unnoticed in another paper, which some hon. Members at any rate would regard as quite the equal of the "Times," would be seized upon, commented upon, and noted in the foreign Press in a way which would not happen with regard to these other papers. With regard to the "Daily Mail," my hon. Friend who has just sat down said the "Daily Mail" has established a great commercial position on the Continent by reason of its commercial ability and enterprise. I do not dispute that at all, but that makes it incumbent upon the directors of those two papers to regard with the greatest possible care and caution everything that they publish in these papers. The broad question raised, and one which, I think, ought to be raised in this House, is a broad public question of great importance It is part of the very large problem, how to conduct a great European war in a democratic country, and it is an extremely difficult problem. I am only saying what is so perfectly well known as to be almost platitudinous, that for some purposes an autocracy has the inevitable advantage that there is only one mind and one will. That, at any rate, is the theory in a perfect autocracy, which never exists.
In a democracy you have got a much more debatable problem. You have got to conduct the War with the support of the democracy—that is the support of a very large number of persons, and that means inevitably the upsetting of certain cumbrous portions of your constitutional machinery, which is not the best thing for conducting a war; and it means also, unquestionably, that it is impossible in this country to curb and restrain our Press in the way that is done under a foreign autocracy. I do not want to speak on any subject connected with this War, because I am certain to be misquoted and misunderstood, but I do not say that I regard that in the long run as a serious disadvantage. I believe that, when it comes to the last laps of the race, the enormous advantage of fighting with the support of the people behind you will tell in favour of the endurance of this country. But, undoubtedly, during the conduct of the War, hon. Members, if I may address those amongst whom I used to sit, I think ought to be patient and forbearing, because many of the things which they criticise are absolutely inevitable if you are to have democracy in a democratically governed country. I do not know whether the House will permit me to add one reflection of my own. I have often thought that we ought really to imitate the old Roman Republic, which, when a war broke out, declared a Dictator—I do not say that it should be one man, but two or three men—and suspend the rest of the Constitution throughout the War. But we have not done it, and until we have done that, one of the difficulties we have got to face is the difficulty of the newspaper Press. Let me try to illustrate what I have been trying to say, I am afraid in rather general terms. Take the particular question which has given rise to a large part of this controversy. My right hon. Friend has quoted a number of extracts from the "Times" and "Daily Mail" which have appeared, as everybody knows, as part of a great campaign in favour of Conscription. I am not an opponent of Conscription, and I do not complain in the least—of course I do not—of those papers having advocated it. In ordinary peace times they would have proceeded in exactly the same way.
We all know how a Press campaign is conducted. It is conducted constantly to advocate a particular measure. We have a very lurid picture drawn of the dangers in which the country stands without this measure. We have vehement criticism of the Government for supineness and inability to see the danger and adopt a remedy. We have reproaches of the apathy of our fellow countrymen in not seeing the danger and forcing the Government to wake up, and take the necessary steps to adopt the remedy. That is the ordinary method of a political campaign in this country, both in the Press and on the platform, and in peace it is all right. What I submit to the House is that that, applied without qualification and without correction in time of war, constitutes a very grave public danger. I may be entirely wrong, but I cannot help feeling that some of those who write and some of those who own these papers do not realise, or have in their mind, that every word which is going to be printed will be eagerly read and scanned in almost every country in the world, and will be read by our enemies, by neutrals, and by our Allies; and unless that is realised, I cannot help feeling that those people who are most eager to wake the country up and make them realise the War, are really those who have forgotten one of the essential necessities and qualifications which war imposes upon us. I will illustrate what I have tried to say. I am not going to weary the House with a number of quotations. I will only say this about them: My hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield is entirely mistaken if he thinks that those quotations have been collected entirely by this office to which he referred. All Government offices naturally and properly watch the foreign Press, and many of these quotations come from other offices—some from the War Office, for instance, and some may come from the Foreign Office. Therefore, it is quite a delusion to suppose, and it is an entire mistake, if the hon. Baronet really meant it, that this is a case which has been got up by two or three gentlemen connected with another paper who desire to inflict an injury on a rival.
I never said anything of the kind.
Then I do not understand what the reference was about.
I am sorry I was not in the House when the Noble Lord rose; I apologise for not being here, but the tape-machine was not working. I never said anything of the kind; I said that it was a very unfortunate coincidence.
My hon. Friend is much too old a Parliamentary hand not to know that he cannot in that way get out of making an insinuation of that kind. It would have been much better to have stood boldly by the insinuation that undoubtedly he did make. That is quite by the way, because it does not seem to me to be important. My right hon. Friend has quoted a number of instances to show the use made in other countries of these statements. When we get hold of some statements of a depressing character in a German paper—and there have been some, I am glad to say—we read them with great pleasure. They encourage us. But I do not myself think that the effect upon our enemies is a very serious or important part of the danger that is created by this kind of statement. But, with regard to neutral opinion, I must respectfully insist —and I do so because it has been brought home to me over and over again by communications which have reached me—that the effect on neutral opinion of this kind of pessimism in what are supposed to be the leading organs of the Press here has a very serious and deleterious effect. May I remind the House for a moment of the situation in the Balkans, say, last June or July? The position was this: I will take merely the instance of Bulgaria, because in the case of Bulgaria I am less likely to do harm by anything which I may say about it. What was the position in Bulgaria? A very large proportion, some people think the majority, of the people of Bulgaria were strongly in favour of the Entente. There was a confident opinion in certain military circles, and in certain Court circles, that the Germans would win, and that was the governing consideration—the only thing that they cared for. King Ferdinand is not a man given to chivalrous self-sacrifice. The only thing he was looking for was to be on the winning side.
He said so.
He said so quite openly. There is no doubt that that was his whole policy. It was all determined by that. I do not want to exaggerate the case for a moment, and I am not going to be so absurd as to say that it was entirely, or if the House likes, mainly, the "Times" or the "Daily Mail," or any other newspapers, that convinced him that the Germans were the winning side. There was a number of other things. There was, for instance, the great difficulty of convincing States such as Bulgaria of the importance of sea power. There was undoubtedly the Russian retreat; there was undoubtedly the failure in the Dardanelles. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I do not know why certain Members of this House should always cheer that.
Because you misled the public in your speech.
7.0 P.M.
I will deal with that in a moment. Then, in addition to that and on the top of it, comes this campaign, which everybody remembers— a campaign undertaken from perfectly patriotic motives—I am quite ready to admit that—which aimed at waking this country up, and nothing else. No one has said anything to the contrary. These things were read in those countries. I do not say that this particular article had that particular effect on that particular man, or anything of that kind, but it is common sense that such articles as those published by the great official Press, and by the newspaper most widely read, next to that one on the Continent, must have had a discouraging effect upon our friends in Bulgaria, and an effect tending to produce the impression that we really were done for, that our workers were idlers and drunkards, and things of that kind, and are not really prepared to make the sacrifice necessary in order to carry this War to a triumphant conclusion.
It was Lloyd George; it was not the "Daily Mail" at all.
I do not think my right hon. Friend is right in that. I do not want to go over the whole of the details again. We are perfectly familiar with the general tendency of the campaign that was carried on. It was essential to part of the campaign made by these papers and by all those who agreed with them. It is quite arguable that it was right, but from the point of view of the country, it was wrong. My point is that in war time you cannot go on in the same way as in time of peace, and in the minds of the writers of articles to lead public opinion there must be kept in mind the effect which will be produced in foreign countries. Let me take the case of Spain. I want, in the most public and emphatic way I can, to express our highest appreciation of the attitude of the Spanish Government, which has been absolutely irreproachable. They have preserved a rigid neutrality in this War. They have disregarded all suggestions that they should depart from it, and I am quite sure that no Government of this country, from whichever side it may come, or however it may be composed, will ever forget the way in which the Spanish Government has acted. But let me also say that there are elements in Spain which are hostile to us. There is a considerable ecclesiastical element, there is a considerable military element, and there are some others which I do not think it necessary for me to enumerate, and there, as elsewhere, one of the great arguments, at any rate, is the enormous and overwhelming power of Germany and how it is certain to win. Then you find those articles published in England which my right hon. Friend has read, and which are reproduced in foreign papers, and is it reasonable to suppose that this is not going to have a bad effect on our position in Spain, and that they do not discourage our friends, and encourage those who are opposed to us? Surely hon. Members must know that this kind of thing does a great deal of harm, at any rate in foreign countries. I could give the case of a number of other countries, but I will only refer to one case, and I think it has already been published; it is the pronouncement of the Chamber of Commerce in Argentina. They say:—
My hon. Friend opposite asked, "What does this mean? Does it mean that there is to be no criticism? Are we to go on without anything being done." That is a very fair and very proper observation. I do not say that unless there was a dictatorship, but I do say that it should be carried on with this condition perpetually before the minds of those responsible for such criticism, that what they say and write here extends far beyond the bounds of this country. That is all I ask. If anybody in this House or out of it wishes to attack the Government or wishes to bring some matter before the notice of the country, I do respectfully ask that, before he does so, he will consider how it will look in foreign countries, what effect it will have upon the public in neutral countries, and he should weigh the two things one against the other, and decide in his mind whether the gain likely to accrue to this country would be greater or less than in the case of the enemy.
Does the Noble Lord doubt that this process has occupied the mind of the directors of those newspapers referred to?
I am sorry to say that when I look at this map which was published by the "Daily Mail," I am unable to believe that any such process can be going on. When I saw it first I thought it was quite incredible that patriotic Englishmen should publish such a thing as that. It brought out the strongest points in favour of the Germans, and deliberately minimised what we have done, putting our sea power absolutely into the background, and speaking of the blockade as practically not existing at all. That is a kind of publication both in form and substance utterly discreditable to those who produced it. My hon. Friend says it is of no importance, but I think—I have no desire to say anything discourteous to him—that he looks at it from purely a British point of view. He said, "Well, of course it is possibly a little exaggerated, but everybody knows that kind of thing, and how can it do any harm in this country?" I do not suggest that, but I do not think it is a very good way to carry on a controversy even in this country. Everybody knows that we must make allowances in a controversy of this kind; but, on the other hand, when you go to foreign countries, we know that in war time nothing is allowed to be published in foreign papers unless it is specifically permitted to be published by the Government. In foreign countries, when these articles are published here, it is. assumed that it is with the permission of the Government of this country, and in those foreign countries where the articles are reproduced it is assumed that we are in such a desperate condition that these things have to be said in order to bring knowledge home to the people of this country—that, in point of fact, so far from being an exaggeration of the position it was a true statement and the best we can make of it.
The Germans, I regret to say, thought it would be so regarded, and they have translated those articles into six or seven languages, and have distributed them in. all directions. Does my hon. Friend still think that this is not likely to do harm? Of course it is. The hon. Baronet in the excess of his energy has distinctly tried to suggest that this was a joke. I do not think the "Daily Mail" will be at all pleased with that description of its. very serious contribution. It was a very serious contribution to the controversy, and a very damaging one for this country. I quite agree that the line is extremely difficult to draw, and in my judgment, and I only speak my own opinion, it must be left in the last resort to the directors of the newspapers themselves. Nobody else can really draw the line for them successfully. You may say, "you have grossly exceeded it and we shall prosecute you under the Defence of the Realm Act," and undoubtedly that ought to be done in extreme cases, but, broadly speaking, I say myself, as the representative of the Foreign Office, that I would much rather have no censorship than the present position of affairs. Practically at present no leading article is submitted to the censorship, and my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Mr. Terrell) actually in this House said that he regarded any paper that was published now as having been published, since there was a censorship, with the authority of the Government. I may be misquoting him, but he said something to that effect, and that kind of view is held everywhere, so that the censorship operated to the increased authority and importance of statements which are made in the Press. As far as the Foreign Office is concerned, and I say nothing about military or naval matters, or indeed about any of the other matters, I should prefer to see no censorship, but to maintain the Defence of the Realm Act and the right to prosecute when there was really a bad case, and to leave it to the newspaper editors absolutely to say what they, as patriotic Englishmen, taking everything into consideration, thought ought to be published in their papers. I believe, personally, that that would be a desirable change. I think I am entitled to say that I have been in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and I believe his opinion coincides with that.
An HON. MEMBER: Why is it not done?
May I ask whether the Noble Lord has consulted representatives of the Press as to whether they would approve or disapprove of such a proposal?
I do not want to turn this into a discussion as to the censorship. Perhaps I have been indiscreet in making that casual allusion, and I do not think I will go further into it. Undoubtedly the representatives of the Press would have to be consulted about a matter of that kind. [An HON. MEMBER: "I do not think they would agree to it!"] My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary asked me to add that he was engaged in considering the censorship, and whether he cannot afford better news and later news on military affairs. I thought it my duty to say to the House that I do deplore, and deplore very deeply, many of the things that have appeared in the "Times." The "Times" ought not to be classed in that respect with the "Daily Mail." In both of those papers I do deplore a great deal that appeared for the past few months. I believe that it has done a considerable amount of harm. I venture, if I may do so, to make an appeal for the cooperation of everyone to the common end. I do not want to muzzle the Press or to get into controversy with the Press. I do venture to say this to hon. Members opposite—I quite understand their feeling; I used to share it when I sat there—that the Government of the day is sure to be wrong, and the truth is it is very often wrong; but it is very difficult to carry on government, as I hope many of my hon. Friends opposite will learn, and it is very easy to make mistakes occasionally. It is perfectly right that those mistakes should be pointed out and those who make them reproached. I do not quarrel with that. But in this time and at this period do consider this: Is there any object in perpetually vilifying the Government? I am not talking about the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs. There are dozens who could be Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs without any injury to this country. But when you come to leading men I ask, Whom do you want to put in their place? That is the point. By all means, if it is an ordinary party warfare in peace time, get rid of one Government and put in another. But with a Government like the present, I am not talking of myself, what is the use of turning one man out if you have nobody to put in his place, and if you cannot put somebody in his. place who is more practical every attack you make makes it less easy for the Government and diminishes their authority and position in foreign countries and does him harm rather than good, and works the will of the enemies of this country rather than that of its friends. For my own part, the House knows quite well that there are many right hon. Gentlemen on this side with whom I have differed. It is quite true that I thought them very dangerous and it is very likely that I may think them dangerous again. The present time is not the time to consider anything of that kind. We have only got now to support them to the utmost of our ability and to give them the greatest help we can to encourage them, spur them on if you like, and not to diminish their authority, and not to hold them up to hatred or contempt, for that is not the work of patriotic men.
The combustible materials which have been flung on the scene in the earlier stages of this quarrel were sure to lead to strong remarks and something in the nature of recrimination. I think the country does not take the least interest in the personal aspect of this question, but I am sure it takes a very great interest in the public part of it. It is for that reason I am glad that my Noble Friend has brought attention to the matter which is of practical and public importance, though I confess I am a little disappointed at his treatment of it. So far as the Press of this country and the particular journals which have been here arraigned are concerned, I do not think there is any considerable body of people in this country which does not value the services of the Press profoundly and the proper liberty of the Press, and with regard to these journals, any man who takes a fair view of the matter will recognise that one of them, at any rate, that which in old times we by common consent regarded as the leading journal, has performed conspicuous public service in the matter of a fund to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, namely, the Red. Cross fund. Criticisms there have been, too, of what some have regarded as failure of prompt action on the part of the Government. But that is not the question here to-day. It is no use saying you have been a benefactor if you are charged with providing ammunition for the enemy. That is the question here to-day, whether ammunition has been provided for the enemy. When one sees that the very practical and long-headed administrators of the war policy of Germany have thought it fit to keep up a stream of communication of these matters, in the name of what they say is the leading English journal, for the purpose of informing opinion not only in the neutral countries, in Egypt, in the East, in countries even like Arabia, where there is knowledge, and in countries like Persia, where it is quite evident it is thought worth while by the enemy to make those communications, why then anybody who knows the practical, business-like care of our enemy in dealing with matters of this kind must know that they regarded this as valuable ammunition. My hon. Friend the Member for St. Augustine's (Mr. R. McNeill), when he spoke of this matter, replying on the spur of the moment in what I thought was an admirable speech, to the Home Secretary, did not question that these things which have been arraigned are wrong. I venture to say that if you discuss them among our fellow-countrymen in any part of this country they will agree with him that these things are wrong and ought not to happen. But if they are wrong and ought not to happen, the practical question is how are you going to stop them?
A great deal of reproach has been thrown on the Government, and I confess I think they deserve some of it, with regard to their handling of this matter. I know nothing of the controversy between newspaper and newspaper. I do not naturally take an enthusiastic view of the Liberal Press of this country. I have suffered a good deal at their hands. But on the other hand, although the "Times" has been one of the most able exponents of policies in which I personally have been profoundly interested, the only policy in which any of us is really interested now is the policy of carrying the War to a successful issue. In that state of the case His Majesty's Government is expected by the country to deal with these matters in such a way as will protect the country and secure its main object. My hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Sir W. Byles), who speaks with acceptance and with authority as a proprietor of newspapers in days from which I confess we have long since departed, put in a plea for the liberty of the Press. Free speech is a fine thing just as liberty of the Press is a fine thing, but if you found a private soldier in the trenches indulging in freedom of speech and in criticism in a manner in which the commanding officer thought was detrimental to the operations being carried on there would be a very quick end to that kind of free speech. We are face to face with the enemy and if it is true, as the Noble Lord told us, that from abroad they are told these things help the enemy and damage us, then there will be common consent that they ought to be put a stop to. It is quite possible that as the result of the Debate there, which has sprung out of personal matters, but has cut very deep with regard to these matters of public policy, we may make a new departure. I hope it will not be a new departure in the direction to which my Noble Friend referred. In one passage of his speech he was the patentee of despotism and dictatorship, yet in another passage of his speech he proposed to cast away the Press censorship.
I do not want there to be any misapprehension on this matter. At present a newspaper need not submit anything to the Censor. The only effect of submitting it is this, that if it is passed by the Censor it makes any prosecution practically impossible. I do not think, as far as foreign affairs are concerned, that the practice of submitting a small part of the paper to the Censor is really any advantage whatever. It has this extra disadvantage, that it gives a kind of air of authority to the whole paper, which I have come across as existing abroad, and if there is any indiscretion it makes the indiscretion even more serious than it would otherwise be. I do not want to abolish the censorship altogether.
But my Noble Friend would abolish the censorship in certain of its aspects—the mildest form of dictatorship with regard to the contents of newspapers. I do not at all share that view. The country is entitled at the present time to be protected in advance against indiscretions which are capable of doing great public harm. The country was entitled to have such means used, either in the particular instance or by the general action of the Minister concerned, as that there should not be a "Daily Mail" map capable of doing the mischief it did. If the censorship does not work properly, let us mend it. But as to giving everybody who thinks fit licence to publish whatever mischievous matter he pleases, subject only to the risk of being convicted by a jury of sedition or libel or some offence under the Defence of the Realm Act, I think that that is a mistake. I think my Noble Friend would find that he had parted with some useful powers.
My suggestion would not apply to naval or military affairs at all.
We have had it demonstrated here to-day that the power of mischief is not confined to telling the details of engagements. What has been demonstrated is that the power of mischief is greater with regard to political matters and political influence than with regard to any idea of communicating to the enemy something he does not know. There is precious little with regard to our dealings with him in the field of which he is not well aware. Political influence has been the influence most concerned in the two cases which have been brought prominently before the House. The first case was the "Globe" newspaper, and the publication at a most inopportune time of an untrue statement about the composition of the Government with regard to Lord Kitchener. That was purely political. Here, again, it is purely political. What was chiefly deplored by the right hon. Gentleman was the effect of the dissemination by the enemy in neutral countries of mischievous statements with regard to the true temper and attitude of this country. The Government has not protected the country from that. There was an instance only the other day where on the other side of the Lobby one of the most mischievous statements ever uttered in. English public life was made, and it was suffered to be spread broadcast through the Press and through the world.
By the authority of the Government. It was submitted to them and they passed it.
Whether it was passed or not I do not know. I think I hear the Home Secretary saying it was not passed. If it was passed—
Certainly it was not.
My right hon. Friend says it was not.
The right hon. Gentleman is mistaken.
I could not conceive it. Here was a statement made with regard to impending military operations of the utmost gravity, where the lives of 100,000 men and a position of the greatest international moment were in question. What is the position to-day? I notice in the Press this morning a letter in large type in which a Noble Lord advises the country to think no more about it as he has received an apology. To my mind His Majesty's Government, powerless as it was to prevent an indiscretion of that kind, had the power to prevent its wide dissemination. For my part, I wish His Majesty's Government would use the power it has. His Majesty's Government, if it thought fit, could censor every paper in London; and if it finds a paper which is daily or weekly doing mischief, or doing mischief from time to time, in great measure from inadvertence, I believe it has power to appoint a censor in the office of that paper to censor its leaders. I know my hon. Friend the Member for Salford would strongly disapprove of that. I would rather have the Press of London suspended for a year than one battalion of Englishmen put out of action. We are up against realities. To talk about freedom of discussion, the liberty of the Press, and many other things which are magnificent in times of peace is beside the mark. The only question here is the progress of the War, and the conquest and destruction of Prussian military power.
His Majesty's Government has these powers. It is said in reproach of the Government that it has not used them with papers of one political complexion. I do not know. If there has been an occasion on which it ought to have used them the time is past now; but if the occasion comes again, and it does not use its powers, the Government will be to blame. The Government has power. It illustrated its power the other day. I instanced one thing that could be done— one of the least harmful. I will instance another. The Government could prevent the departure from this country of any one copy of a newspaper which is expected to spread mischief abroad. If the Government has come to the conclusion, as stated by two of its Members from the Front Bench, that there is in one quarter and perhaps in others recklessness which causes mischief of that kind abroad, is it to be supposed that the country would not back the Government in that strong action? The country will tolerate almost anything in the Government except weakness. Then there is another means. The Government illustrated it the other day. It did not hesitate to suspend by the exercise of a power under the Defence of the Realm Act one of the oldest papers in London. Many of us for old associations' sake deeply regretted that it was necessary. The Government was handsomely backed in that action by the House of Commons. My belief upon this subject is that if the newspaper editors of this country, without sacrificing any right of criticism, will bear in mind that needless publication may be ammunition for the enemy, we shall not have any occasion for the strict application of any of the powers to which I have referred. They are hateful powers, justified only by the time of war. But if there is any editor who will set up his method of conducting the War against the national method, who will set himself up as the only oracle of British opinion, as representing British opinion and British people in a manner which condemns us among our friends, and exposes us to the derision of our enemies, then, as I said just now, the only thing that this country will blame in the Government is weakness and indecision, but it will congratulate the Government upon any act of strength.
:I shall intervene for only a few minutes, in the first place, because I have very little to say with regard to the main purpose of the Debate, and secondly, because I have many friends outside this House who take different views in this controversy. I suppose the Government, when they decided to have a full-dress Debate this afternoon on this subject, thought they were assisting to win the War. I have no hesitation in entirely differing with them. I can understand the feeling of the Home Secretary. I appreciate the purpose he had in endeavouring to make himself right with the House. But there is a great distinction between making a personal explanation in this House—where it ought first to have been made, and not in the columns of the "Times"—and dragging up a controversy many months' old, which, in my opinion, had far better have been left alone. The statement made by the Home Secretary implied that the paragraph to which attention was called expressed Russian opinion. No one for a moment suggests that the right hon. Gentleman was fully informed of the subject when he made the statement. It is quite an easy mistake to make—the paragraph was in a Russian paper. The unfortunate thing is that the person who supplied the right hon. Gentleman with the paragraph did not say that it was from a correspondent in Paris. This Debate is caused entirely, first, by that neglect of the person who gave the right hon. Gentleman the paragraph, and, secondly, by the neglect of the right hon. Gentleman himself to see exactly under what circumstances the paragraph appeared. The right hon. Gentleman at once, as we know he would, wrote to the "Times," and said, "I was misinformed; I was misled; I made a mistake; I frankly apologise for it." As far as I am concerned, I think the incident might well have rested there. But the right hon. Gentleman, having written to the "Times," it was his bounden duty to take the House into his confidence as fully as he had taken the editor of the "Times." He must remember that, although the first statement was published broadcast throughout the country, his letter was published in practically no other paper at all, so that the papers which had made so much of the matter, in strong leading articles, and so forth— I do not blame them; it is a matter for their judgment—had no special occasion to publish the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman. Therefore, I think the right hon. Gentleman was well-advised to tell the House that he had been misled. There is another phase of the reply of the right hon. Gentleman. He has frankly admitted to-day that but for his discussing the matter in the luncheon room before the House met, there would have been no supplementary question at all.
How do you know? You have no right to say that.
I am quite willing to go on the statement of the Home Secretary. The hon. Member happened to be at the same table when this subject was being discussed. If I may say so, I do not think it is quite the thing for a Cabinet Minister to be discussing with private Members his reply to a question on the Paper before the House is in possession of the facts.
Oh!
If the hon. Member tells me that he was going to ask a question before the Home Secretary said anything about the matter, I will accept his word. Does he say so? I do not want to bring in any personal acrimony. I do not think it is an unfair inference. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that but for his having conveyed the information the chances are that the supplementary question would not have been asked. I think the matter might have been allowed to rest there. But the Government have chosen to have a full-dress Debate on the subject this afternoon. My view of the matter is a very simple one. I have not approved of the method in which some of the attacks of these particular papers have been made. I think the purpose would have been served, which was the thing in view, without so disturbing public opinion.
We have had two tributes this afternoon from the Front Bench. We have had the tribute of the Home Secretary that these papers—he does not doubt for a moment— are actuated by the highest patriotic motives. The Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs said the same thing. If we all start from that basis, I think we may get quite different conclusions to those to which some people are inclined to come. What are the facts in regard to the attitude of these papers, with one of which I have no concern whatever in the direction, and to which I am politically opposed, and have been all my life? We have fought many a battle, and very fierce ones indeed. My view in regard to this War is quite different, and apart from any political considerations. I do not think of party one bit in this War, nor do I think of those political principles which I professed before the War began. The one thing I think of is: How can this war be won in the least possible time, and with the least expenditure of life and treasure? If there is one thing which I think ought to be granted to Lord Northcliffe it is that that is what has actuated him. Does anyone suggest that it was to get a circulation that he told the facts that have been told in his papers? Anybody who knows the British public knows that there is no circulation to be got in giving them bad news; they get that soon enough. It is the "Great Victories," and "The March into Berlin," and "Another Great Triumph!" These are placards that sell the paper better, and therefore when you tell the public that the news is bad, when you tell them that Poland has been taken from our Allies, that Belgium is in the hands of our enemies, that Serbia will also in a few days be in the hands of the enemy— if you do not act! These are the things that do not cheer the British public, they would rather have good news.
Why tell them news that is not true?
What was said that was not true?
In the "Daily Mail" map!
The hon. Member has made an assertion that something is not true. I have only the memory of it in my mind, and I am only concerned to get at the truth; but if the hon. Member would like to make a statement I will give way.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman has explained the whole thing, and has shown that it was absolutely untrue and unfair.
If the right hon. and learned Gentleman will get up and tell me one thing which was not true in that map I will accept it at once.
I am very unwilling to interrupt an hon. Member who is speaking, because it leads to disorderliness of debate; but really let the right hon. Gentleman take one example. According to that map, the naval forces of the Allies were to be represented by a line some three inches long, and the naval forces of the enemy by a line twice as long; and there was to be no representation of any naval forces in any other part of the world except the North Sea!
Really the hon. Gentlemen below me must give me the right to speak in this House. I have been continually interrupted every time I have spoken lately. I am not referring to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Home Secretary. I have always had the greatest courtesy from him—more than sometimes I possibly deserved, I fear. But some hon. Members think they are assisting the right hon. and learned Gentleman by continually shouting me down. I am not one of those who are to be shouted down. I put that question to get at the facts, because if there are any misstatements in that map—and there may be—I should be the first to condemn the "Daily Mail" and the "Times," and as sincerely and earnestly as the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I am only anxious to get at the truth. So far as there being anything misleading in the map, really I do not suppose that a week has gone by since the War began in which these papers have not lauded the majesty, the usefulness, and the power of the British Navy. We have heard about defeat and about belittling. We have heard it said there was in some Spanish papers quotations from one of these papers to the effect that we were a defeated race. If I may say so to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I do not think he showed his usual fairness when he read that. I challenge him —for I am a pretty close reader of them, as I have to be—to show me if there has ever been an admission in either of these papers that we were defeated in this War. I think he misled the House in that matter. Here we are this afternoon having complaints from the right hon. and learned Gentleman, as I said before, without notice. I think it is unprecedented that a personal explanation should raise a great Debate of this kind when we had no notice of it, and when the parties principally concerned have not had the opportunity of giving the facts to any Friends in this House who might reply for them. What is the speech of the right hon. Gentleman? It is an indictment of himself and of the Government. They have got the power They have got every power they ever asked for to govern the Press of this country. They have got a censorship. If anything is published against the security and interest of the country they have the power to suppress and prosecute the Press. Why do not they do it, instead of coming down here and whining that they have been badly treated? This House has given them the power, and if they have not exercised it it is not fair to come to this House and ask for sympathy.
No, Sir. The Press throughout this country, in my opinion, in this War have, with one or two exceptions, behaved absolutely patriotically. The best security for the interests of this country, so far as the Press is concerned, are the conductors of those newspapers, and not the officers—I do not wish to speak with anything but respect of them—in the Press Bureau. An editor knows better than a soldier how to watch the interests of the country in his paper. If the Northcliffe Press has been as guilty as it has been attempted to make them, they should be punished in the ordinary form. This House ought not to suggest measures against a free Press in this country which might have disastrous effects. We know now how severe the censorship is. We know how limited are the opportunities for Debate in this House. We know, also, how the public have been, from time to time, misled by Ministers who sat on those benches as to prospects of the campaign. What is the principal cause of complaint against the newspapers? The principal grievance has been that they have criticised the Government for their failure to rise to their opportunities, for their want of foresight, for their want of organisation. That is why the newspapers have been so unpopular. Stop criticism, stop letting the public know the true facts of the situation in regard to this War, and from that moment your real trouble will begin. Can you find me anything more severe in condemnation of the Government itself than your own Cabinet Ministers' speeches and writings? Is there anything in any of the papers which you have been criticising to-day, or any paper throughout the country, that has painted in blacker terms the situation of this country in regard to the War than that contained in the preface of the book by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Munitions? Then there was the letter of the late Chancellor of the Duchy just before he resigned, which stated very unpalatable facts so far as the position of this country was concerned.
There are two schools of thought in this matter. There is one school which wants the people to be happy, and not to realise the dangers we are in, but to wake up years afterwards, and then perhaps final it too late to take any action. There is another school which says: "Let us know the worst, let us face all the difficulties which are before us, the British character will not flinch if you let it understand the facts." You will have greater responsibility if you have the facts and true information than if you try to give the public rosy news which pleases them for the moment. The public have good reason to ask for full information. They see the tragedy of the Dardanelles. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on that Front Bench do not like to be reminded of it. We see 250,000 casualties to-day. We have had replies admitting almost all that was pointed out by those who spoke of the mistakes months ago. You admit yourselves you made a blunder, and still deny to the people the true state of the War. You cannot do it. The British people are gradually getting to know the real facts of the conduct of this War. They are gradually beginning to know that but for blunders the War might very well have been nearly over to-day. Had you trusted the people, or had you yourselves trusted one another before the War— which you do not do—for some knew the real facts and did not tell the others— had you trusted one another then the country might have been better prepared for the War! Even after war was declared, if you had not turned away men who offered you hundreds of thousands of rifles and hundreds of thousands of shells it would have been much better for everyone. Can you blame the people who see these blunders committed that they should have some desire to criticise the Government? This War will be won by taking the people into your confidence: it will not be won by denying the people the truth. I say to the Government to-day, greatly as I regret this Debate, that it will do some; good if it will induce the Government to see that by trusting the British public the better will be the prospects of winning the War.
Let me tell the right ion. Gentleman what happened when he says that the Home Secretary discussed this question with me at the luncheon table. When he says that he is saying something which is totally incorrect and which has no foundation whatever. Perhaps he will withdraw that statement when I say that.
I asked the hon. Gentleman a question as to when he became aware of the answer that was to be given to the right hon. Gentleman's question.
8.0 P.M
And I have answered it. The right hon. Gentleman first asserted that the Home Secretary had discussed the matter with me. What happened was that, having read of these things on Saturday in the "Daily Chronicle," I have cut some of the matter out. My blood boiled at the time. I personally intended to put a question down, but I did not get down to the House. I have, unfortunately, not often been here of late, and have not been very much in touch with questions before the House. It is true that by a coincidence the Home Secretary came to the luncheon table, as has been said, and he discussed the matter with a colleague. I could not help hearing what was said, and as I understood there was some difficulty or technicality about reading this cutting out of the newspaper, I determined there and then that I would get it out. I came into the House and put the supplementary question and got it out. There is the whole answer. If, therefore, the suggestion is made that there was collusion between the Home Secretary and myself and the "Daily Chronicle" in order that the vendetta against the "Times" should be continued, it is not true. I have not spoken in this House since the War began. If it is a vendetta to hunt out a murderer or a traitor, then, of course, I am delighted and rejoiced to have taken part in this vendetta, and in this sense and for this simple reason: I spent the whole of last winter out in France with the troops under undesirable conditions of wet, rain, and cold. For many months past I have taken the trouble to carry these papers many miles in different directions so that the troops might see them. I was in France when the French Government had to go to the trouble to suspend the Paris edition of the "Daily Mail." I was at a tea party consisting of officers who had been in the trenches and come down for a little rest. We were there at the time that the "Daily Mail" came out with the great attack on Lord Kitchener. I know what happened. I know the feeling that went like lead into the hearts of the men and into the Army. It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen here who have been sitting on the comfortable benches of this House to look at their point of view of this matter. That is an individual view, but I think a great vested interest like the "Times"—which has been good in the past—is not a thing to protect and stand up for. What about the British officers and troops in France who have been reading this? If they had been here to-day one might have heard something. That is why I was determined to have this thing out, and I rejoice that it has led to this Debate. I congratulate the Home Secretary for the stand he has made, and for having taken this opportunity to the full and used it to the full. I am sure tomorrow the whole country will be of the same opinion as I am in acclaiming his courage and his skill in taking advantage of the occasion to do a public service that ought to have been done long ago.
I do not propose to occupy the time of the House very much upon this matter, but it is a strange commentary on the value of the time of the House, as occasionally stated from the Treasury Bench, that no better use could be found for this afternoon than to give this elaborate advertisement to two London newspapers, for that is all this Debate will amount to. It is an ironical use at a time when all the Members of this House, except official Members, are muzzled, so that they are not free to introduce a Bill on any subject, no matter how urgent nor how many suffering people it may affect, and that they must spend the whole afternoon instead in giving this advertisement to two London newspapers. The Home Secretary in his speech of an hour and a half hesitated for a very long time, in putting on the white sheet, as to whether in that garment he was to apologise to Lord Northcliffe or the House, and although I listened to every word of it I was not able at the end to decide definitely whether it was to Lord Northcliffe or to the House he apologised. But what brings me to my feet, and what concerns me, is the elaborate explanations, excuses, and apologies for speaking a single harsh word against newspapers which, according to himself, have been vilifying this English nation all over the world, exposing this nation to contempt, doing all the injury in their power to this British Empire, giving all the satisfaction in their power to the enemy in all parts of the world, culminating in the issue of an elaborate map which seems to have gone beyond all bounds. Yet while the Government is armed with Press laws, and with the Defence of the Realm Act, they are afraid to attack those papers in the way they have attacked papers in Ireland—afraid because they are owned by wealthy men. That is what the British House of Commons has come to!
What does the Home Secretary want the House to do this evening? This House is going to scatter this evening, and we are all going home without making the slightest impression upon Lord Northcliffe, except the pleasant impression that we have advertised him better than his own ingenuity could ever conceive. And while all this thing has been carried on, while this House has been occupied in an elaborate farce this whole afternoon, the Government are not ashamed of the fact that on the other side of the Irish Channel they have suppressed six newspapers, broken up their type, scattered their staff, driving the writers not only out of the offices but out of the country. And, indeed, while taking these drastic measures, the Home Secretary is not ashamed to come to this House with his apologies and his cryings about the naughtiness of my Lord Northcliffe in publishing his map showing the German road to India. Where is the consistency? We hear of strong characters, and of purists. The Prime Minister has often described himself in this House as a purist, and his admirers describe him as a strong character. That strong character wavers like a broken reed before the frown of Lord Northcliffe, and that purist has saddled this country with twenty-two Cabinet Ministers, instead of half that number, which would perform the duties far better. The Home Secretary has apologies to offer Lord Northcliffe for raising a Debate in this House. Where is the apology to the writers of those six suppressed papers in Ireland which the Government do not want to be mentioned, and do not want to be known over here or on the Continent, but which have been suppressed since this War began? Where is the apology for that conduct under the same law? There is no difference in the law; the difference is the Irish Channel, and they sent their emissaries over to Ireland to smash up type and to drive the freedom of the Press and the freedom of individuals out of that unfortunate country for no other reason but the expression of honest opinion. To illustrate the conduct of this Press censorship in this country as compared with Ireland I ask, is it not a monstrous thing that a paper has actually been suppressed in Ireland which never published a word but what it cut from other papers, mostly the papers in this country? Am I to be told that, while you allow papers here in the heart of the Empire to publish matter which is admittedly injurious, and can do nothing but come to the House of Commons to whine about it, you suppress in Ireland, and smash the type in Ireland, of a paper which has done nothing whatever but cut out that matter and republish it in Ireland? Can anyone inside this House or out of it say that that is fair and impartial administration of the Press laws?
This Debate, like many Debates in this House which arise on comparatively small and personal matters, has widened out into a discussion of affairs of the gravest importance. In the very few words which I desire to address to the House, I should like to begin by thanking my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary for dealing with this personal matter. It seems to me that the character of those who take a great share in the Government of this country is not only a matter dear to themselves but is a matter upon which this House will always be jealous, and with which this House will always be concerned. Apart entirely from matters of legitimate controversy, the attack made on the right hon. Gentleman was one which I believe every Member of this House, when the Debate is over, will be glad that he repelled and repudiated, and with regard to the subject matter of which he gave the explanation he did. This is no mere question of difference of opinion. The charge against the Home Secretary was undoubtedly a charge affecting the honour of a public man, even if made by the hon. Member for Mansfield, whose theories of honour are so very far below his practice. For the "Times," be it remembered, did in its leading article, on the 25th of this month, say that by question and answer in this House a false impression was created by the enemies of the "Times," and deliberately sanctioned by a Secretary of State, and that bona fides, and that this charge of deliberately sanctioning false impressions was a charge which ought never to have been made, and which I hope some of us still trust may be repudiated by the newspaper which stooped to make it.
So much with regard to the personal matter with which this Debate began. When we pass from that to the discussion of this difficult and far-reaching question as to how far the newspapers of this country are helping or retarding the national fortunes, I am certain that there again the House generally will be grateful to the Home Secretary for the illustrations he gave, and for the arguments he dwelt upon. I heard very little, I am sorry to say, of the speech of the hon. Member for St. Augustine's in defence of the Northcliffe Press, and therefore I do not, of course, comment on a speech I did not hear, but, so far as one can understand the speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield, most of which I did hear, it seemed to consist in arguing that because certain persons in some Government Department once upon a time had been connected with some other newspaper, therefore it was improper to bring to the notice of this House the grave and injurious effects abroad of what two great newspapers in this country in the exercise of their discretion have done. My hon. Friend is a very effective speaker in this House, but some of his qualities remind me of a certain kind of coal, with which no doubt he is familiar, of which the heating capacity is greater than the illuminating power. Ever since his speech this afternoon the temperature of the Debate has been steadily rising.
I hope he will not think me wanting in allegiance if I do not speak of anything like that. In what I say I impute no evil motive to any person, but I will merely call attention to what I think is the gravest feature of this case. There is no need to impute motives because we are dealing, I hope within the limits of discretion, with what is open to newspapers in this country. This Debate having arisen, one is only doing one's duty in saying that which one so often hears from people outside, that the view of the War which has been so often represented in those great newspapers is having in this country, and has had abroad, a really serious influence on the progress of the campaign, and on some of the features on which military success depends. I know for months past, when one has been doing what one could to promote recruiting, that the unrelieved gloom, and that artistic selection of the most depressing features of the War which one has noticed constantly in the "Times" and the "Daily Mail," has had a definite and retarding influence on recruiting. I will not go into the question of voluntary or compulsory service, but it is just as easy to those able newspaper men to put their case in any controversy in a way which does not depress as it is to put it in a way that does depress. I have found again and again that the policy of those great newspapers has not made it easier, but more difficult, to get that support for His Majesty's Army which very many thousands of people are anxious to get. I agree with the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy that there are two classes or even more classes of people, but I say that it is quite as wrong to disturb the balanced judgment in connection with what is sad and depressing and of evil fortune, and it has quite as bad an effect on human will and judgment, as to issue nothing but what is fortunate.
Nothing is more remarkable than the way in which the policy of these newspapers has tended to lessen the amount of knowledge displayed by people of admirable character and most patriotic feelings, who have not the knowledge or opportunity of getting it, and they see how one-sided and out of the scale so many of those journalistic utterances are. These things come to my knowledge, as they come to every other hon. Member of this House, from all quarters, and there are few things more trying to one's temper, or more saddening to one's own judgment, than to read letters from the front asking when something is going to be done to stop these one-sided and jaundiced descriptions, which are having a really bad effect among officers and men, and are not strengthening our powers in the very place we want them to be at the highest possible strength. [An HON. MEMBER: "They are all censored!"] I will leave it to the hon. Member to allocate the blame between those who make the paragraphs and those who let them go. I am not here to hold any brief for the Censor, but if it be the case that any journal, or any speaker tries it on, to say things which do actually depress, chancing whether they will pass the Censor or not, any such journal or speaker is greatly to blame. It is because one knows these facts and meets them day after day and week after week that I venture to take this opportunity here in my place of calling the attention of the House of Commons to them. I impute no motives of any kind. I am well aware of the extreme difficulty of the position, but errors of judgment alike in journalism or military matters, may have the gravest results in times like these.
I hope these great and important newspapers, which have at their command endless ability and boundless financial resources, will learn more than they appear to have learned, and learn, very likely as one of the consequences of this Debate, that everything they write has not only to be looked at in the way it appears to our enemies and neutrals, as well as to us, but it also has to be considered by thousands and thousands of English people who have neither the information nor opportunities of obtaining further information to correct these depressing views. In this War, surely, we have a right to call for a balanced judgment, which is wanted as much throughout the country as it is wanted by those who guide the country. Nearly every speaker has suggested to the Government that they need not be afraid to take drastic action when they think it is necessary. Many people have wondered why more action has not been taken long ago. People are anxious that action should be taken with equal celerity and with equal force against great newspapers, as against small ones, wherever they are, if they do wittingly or unwittingly things which injure England in any part of the world at this time. While I believe all of us welcomed the Home Secretary's clear and conclusive defence of his own honour and action in the personal matter out of which this Debate has arisen, I am sure we all hope that the rest of the Debate, and the wider issues on which it has turned may have the effect either of improving these undoubted evils or of giving to the Government that strength of executive force which will lead them to put an end to these evils, if they are not indeed prevented by greater wisdom and by greater self-control.
I have listened to this Debate for several hours. I came here to go into Committee on two important Bills, and instead of doing something we have been talking in a way from every side which seems to justify an expression made to me in the Lobby that the "whole thing has been overdone." I do not want to overdo it, but there are one or two remarks that occur to me, and which I think need to be said, because nobody else has said them. The first remark I have to make is with regard to the very unpleasant, and I must say rather disagree- able manner in which the Home Secretary referred to a gentleman of very high standing, whom I am proud to own as my friend. I refer to Sir Henry Lunn. His name was brought into this Debate in a very uncomplimentary way, and several hon. Members have expressed to me their dissatisfaction and indignation at the way in which that gentleman was referred to. Sir Henry Lunn had a title conferred upon him by the Prime Minister. He has been a candidate for Parliament, and he has been a man who has taken up a great many kinds of public work. I am very proud to call that gentleman my friend. I do not always agree with him on many points, but the way in which he was treated by the Home Secretary needs some condemnation.
It is perfectly obvious that the Government has been from the first extremely afraid of the "Times" and the "Daily Mail." We have had cases given to us by the Home Secretary and by the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs which, if they mean anything, mean that for months past the Government have been warned by people at home, by officers in the field, and by representatives, official and unofficial, in neutral and Allied countries of the evil done by these papers, and they have not dared, as far as they can show, to make one single protest. They have not intimated to these papers that they might moderate their language or their line of conduct; and now, after an attack is made—a very unfair and unjust attack—upon the Home Secretary, he makes the offering of a personal explanation for a mistake, which it is quite obvious he did make and for which there was very good excuse, the opportunity for a long and elaborate attack upon these newspapers; but at the end he does not say that he is going to do anything; he only says that if it goes on he must think it over again. As the hon. Member for North-West Meath (Mr. Ginnell) has pointed out, six obscure newspapers in Ireland have been entirely abolished. Their property has been absolutely ruined. I think one may say that it has been confiscated. But what this brave and glorious Government have dared to do in the case of obscure papers in Ireland it does not dare even to threaten in the case of the "Times" and the "Daily Mail," which on its own showing have been doing for many months past incalculable evil to the cause of the Allies. I always like to support the Government, and if they care for my sup- port they can have it at this time of crisis, but I must say that I should support them with more conviction and more pleasure if I felt that they had more consistency and more courage. There is one point which came incidentally in the speech of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to which I should like to refer. We are accustomed to various members of the Government criticising and giving their independent views upon the censorship, but it fairly astounded me when the Noble Lord condemned out of hand, I think I may say sans phrase, the whole action of the censorship in regard to what he saw in the Foreign Office. He used these words, and repeated them twice, showing how carefully he had weighed them and probably that he had submitted them to his chief:— methods with regard to the publication of news and the censorship; and if it gradually comes to some sense, order, and consistency in this matter, this afternoon's Debate will not have been entirely wasted.
I rise to make only one observation, and to emphasise the point that no speaker who has criticised the action of the Government in this matter has expressed any sort of sorrow or disappointment at the aspersions which were cast upon the personal character of the Home Secretary. It is all very well for right hon. Gentlemen to say that a wider issue has been raised than the dishonest answer which the Home Secretary was said to have given on Wednesday last; but, after all, the personal character of a Cabinet Minister is a very valuable asset, and especially in a time of War. What would be thought of any member of the Cabinet who had been pilloried in a principal newspaper of the country as a man capable of giving a dishonest answer in the House of Commons and of deceiving the House of Commons unless there was some public repudiation, not only by the right hon. Gentleman himself, but by his colleagues in the House? I confess I was very grieved to find that the hon. Gentleman the Member for the St. Augustine's Division (Mr. R. McNeill) and the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division (Sir A. Markham) not only not accepted the right hon. Gentleman's statement that he knew nothing at all about any so-called conspiracy, but that the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division, as it seemed to me, went a very long way, not only to confirm the statement given in the "Times," but even to cross the "t's" and dot the "i's" of the "Times." What did the "Times" say? I have the leading article of last Thursday here in my hand. It started by saying:— Russian Prime Minister and the Czar, the article goes on to say:— connected with the "Times," but he makes a further suggestion, and he mentions the names of two gentlemen, one of whom was for many years an honoured Member of this House—who are now in the Censor's Department of the Home Office, and who have been connected with the "Daily Chronicle." He suggested that these two gentlemen are parties to the conspiracy, and that, through them, the Home Secretary was inveigled into this invidious position.
I have not heard the whole of the speeches during this Debate, but I have heard all except the last two, and I have not heard one Member state that he accepted the explanation of the Home Secretary. I wish to say for my own part— and I have taken some interest in this matter and followed the controversy very carefully—that, having heard what the right hon. Gentleman had said, in my humble judgment he has disposed entirely not only of the personal allegation against himself, but of this myth of a conspiracy of a jealous newspaper against the "Times." The right hon. Gentleman, in my opinion, was bound to go further than to merely clear his own personal honour in this matter, because he had to justify his action in reading the paragraph out to the House of Commons. By reading it out he made himself responsible substantially for the accuracy of the statements contained in it. That paragraph said designedly, and as a matter of fact, that the statements that had appeared in these two newspapers were quoted extensively abroad to the detriment of the interests of this country. I do not think anyone could have heard the Home Secretary and the Noble Lord the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs (Lord Robert Cecil) without coming to the conclusion that that statement was amply justified.
It may be, and I believe it is true, that the editors acted inadvertently, but. I hope one result of this Debate will be that journalists of all sorts of opinions will be more careful in future in the paragraph they insert in their newspapers, and that they will try to uphold the honour and good name of the men who are vested with the responsibility of ruling this country and conducting this War. That is a great asset for this country, and in a few months' time, when proposals for peace will be made to this country—as I believe they will be when we have defeated the enemy, and that I trust we shall do in a very few months—when that time comes it will be of vital importance to this country that the character of the men who will be conducting these negotiations for honour, good faith, and truthfulness shall be above reproach. I feel strongly on this question, and I trust that, after this Debate, the Press of all kinds will be more careful in the way in which they conduct their work.
The Debate we have had to-day has ranged over wide ground, but it has been extremely unfortunate in its origin and inception. Nobody here, I think, this morning, before we came here, was aware that the large question of the relationship of the Government to the Press was to be discussed on the personal statement of the Home Secretary. Indeed, it was only the Members on this side of the House who knew that there would be such a personal statement, because my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Mr. Gulland) informed all the Liberal Members that the Home Secretary was going to make a personal statement, while the Noble Lord the Member for Chichester (Lord Edmund Talbot) and his colleagues did not see fit to make a similar announcement to the members of the Unionist party.
It was in all the morning papers.
It was not on the Whip, and it seems somewhat strange that the announcement regarding a personal statement should have been made the peg upon which to hang a general discussion on so far-reaching a subject as the relations of the Government with the Press in times of War. I do not desire to introduce any unnecessary heat into this Debate. I have always recognised that the question is one of the greatest delicacy, and of enormous difficulty. It must, of course, be the desire of the Government of this country—a representative Government, a Government which depends upon public support—it must be the desire of such a Government to tell, as far as it possibly can, the whole truth regarding the military, naval, and diplomatic situation. But it is obvious to everyone that at the same time when it is endeavouring to do this it is running in many respects the serious risk of communicating information which might be of value to our enemies. Consequently, there falls upon that Department of the Government which may be called the Publicity Department the very difficult duty of reconciling this function of telling the truth to our own people and at the same time refraining from communicating information to the enemy.
Throughout the War I think there has been a great amount of forbearance on the part of critics, both inside and outride of Parliament, in criticising the Government's discharge of this very delicate and difficult function. Now we find the Government, not because it has been attacked in this House, but because it has been necessary for the Home Secretary to make a personal explanation in reference to the "Times" newspaper, coming down and informing the country that the conduct of certain newspapers is a public danger and that their action for a long course of time has been prejudicial to the safety and to the best interests of the country. That is a most extraordinary position. On their own admission, the conduct of the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" has been a public danger and it has been prejudicing our highest interests. But what have they done? The first of the quotations which were given by the Home Secretary to-day was in the "Daily Mail" of 27th July. He went from the 27th July to the 11th October, when that highly interesting map was produced, and at the same time he produced a quotation from a leading article in the "Times," I think, of the 7th October—a leading article which dealt with the suppression of a reference in Mr. Buchan's dispatch to the bravery of the German troops. How did the Home Secretary interpret those quotations from the "Times"? He said it was a libel upon the character of British officers.
It is quite true that leading articles are not censored, but surely under the Defence of the Realm Act it was the bounden duty of the Government to prosecute any newspaper which published a libel upon British officers. I know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not think it necessary to give any attention to this matter. As the right hon. Gentleman was the only member of the Cabinet present, I thought this matter might be worthy of his attention. The Home Secretary, in describing one of the passages quoted from the "Times," described it as a libel upon British officers and a libel, too, which was being spread through neutral countries and which was calculated to damage the reputation of British officers all over the world. Yet, in spite of that, no action was taken in regard to that publication. I say that is a most inconsistent position. There can be no defence of it. The Government themselves stand condemned of cowardice in the face of Lord Northcliffe. That is the only inference which any fair-minded man will draw in reading this Debate to-morrow morning in the newspapers. He finds the Government accusing Lord Northcliffe of a libel on British officers, yet, at the same time, he finds the Government declining to do anything to Lord Northcliffe for this alleged libel, and doing nothing for the reputation of British officers which they now say is so dear to them.
This is a very different story from the story we heard only a fortnight ago in regard to the suppression of the "Globe" newspaper. I took part in that discussion—a part of which I am proud. I adhere to every word I said then, and I believe that when that incident comes to be examined, the action of the Government will be described as an arbitrary and oppressive act. But what was the situation then? They suppressed a newspaper for publishing and republishing a statement which was not denied by the Government until five hours after the newspaper was suppressed. The House was not aware of that. It was a thing studiously concealed by the Government. The statement made by the "Globe" was never quoted in this House in the official Government defence. The statement made by the "Globe" was that Lord Kitchener tendered his resignation and that it was not accepted. That was made on the Friday. The Press Bureau denied that Lord Kitchener had resigned on the Friday. The "Globe"—I think foolishly, but that is a matter for discussion—pointed out that the Press Bureau had not denied the statement that it made, and republished it. Then the "Globe" was suppressed, and five hours after its suppression there was an official denial of the "Globe's" statement. That is the real history of the "Globe" newspaper incident. At the same time, one of Lord Northcliffe's newspapers denied the official denial. It said:— man, has lost his livelihood. They sacrificed the poor man, but they are afraid to attack the wealthy man who owns a battalion of newspapers and who is the Napoleon of modern journalism, as I then described him. I remember that the Home Secretary, in the enthusiastic defence he then made, dropped into an Homeric quotation. He reminded the House, or at least the few Members of it who were present who had read Plutarch, of the quotation which the Roman statesman Scipio made from Homer when he heard of the death of Tiberius Gracchus:
Why does the right hon. Gentleman not denounce his colleague as a public danger? It is a much more serious thing to have a statement like that from a Cabinet Minister than from any newspaper. Let the right hon. Gentleman get his Press Bureau to track that statement through, not only the pro-German papers, but the neutral papers of the Balkans? Was not that calculated to have a far more important effect upon the wavering designs of the Bulgarian Government? This was the 13th of September. Still Bulgaria was in the balance. Still Greece was doubtful, as Greece still is. But now he makes a case against Lord Northcliffe and the "Times" newspaper on passages selected from those newspapers which are not a tithe as damaging to the British case as the statement made by his own colleague, and still remains a member of the Government. I do not wish to call that a dishonest case, but I call it a disingenuous case. It is quite an inconsistent case. I am somewhat surprised that the Home Secretary, with his usual foresight, had not the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. T. M. Healy) here to defend him to night, as he had on the occasion of the "Globe." The hon. and learned Gentleman was very satirical about two Scotsmen defending a London newspaper. He said, "We Irishmen have seen Irish newspapers suppressed, and we have never said a word. We have never uttered a word of opposition against the Government. We have supported them loyally and faithfully through all these difficult months. We have seen 'Irish Freedom' suppressed and we said nothing." But the hon. and learned Gentleman forgot that when Irish whisky was going to be touched be took the first Division since the War. As we in Scotland say, with our great national poet, "whisky and freedom gang together," but we take up arms for freedom first. The right hon. Gentleman had not the hon. and learned Gentleman here, nor the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Duke) nor other hon. and learned Gentleman. I am an hon. and learned Gentleman without expectations, consequently I am not so faithful in my support. It is perfectly true that statements such as these which have appeared in the "Times" and such as those made by the Minister of Munitions—and I could quote a later statement by the late Chancellor of the Duchy, but I forbear doing so, as he has gone from the Government and is. serving his country at the front—are liable to quotation by the enemy in their own country and by their minions in neutral countries. But what is the real reason why those statements receive credit in neutral countries? Is it not because of what one of your own Cabinet Ministers described as the mischievous stupidity of your own censorship? These statements and speculations would be of greater account if the British censorship and news service had a reputation throughout the world as the most accurate and most reliable news service in the world. It is a misfortune to us that our news service has ceased to have that character. It is because, as we all know, facts have been suppressed by it which are now public property. Lord Milner the other day said it was common talk among officers coming home from the front that our reports were less reliable than the German official reports. I do not know for the truth of it, but there you have it stated by a responsible man who has held some of the highest offices in the Empire. It is not surprising that when your own official news is suspect, unofficial statements appearing in newspapers in this country should be quoted and should affect the reputation and the prestige of this country throughout the vast area of hostilities. But to me the essential thing in this Debate is the inconsistency and unfairness of the Government. They have tackled the "Globe," they have tackled "Irish Freedom," they have tackled the "Labour Leader." They spent about a week at the Guildhall discussing a pamphlet written by a friend of mine— an historical argument on the neutrality of Belgium, an argument on international law and on history—examining the question whether the neutrality of Belgium was a casus belli. After all, that is an interesting historical question I do not suppose this pamphlet, published as it was at one penny, would have circulated among more than a few thousand people in this country.
It might have gone to Spain.
They would not have understood it there, and no one would have taken the trouble to translate it. But there it was. You had Treasury counsel, I suppose, with a fairly decent fee on his brief, cross-examining the author of the pamphlet for a whole day at the Guildhall, and finally you had the pamphlet suppressed. Things that are likely to do not the slightest damage, which have an insignificant and negligible circulation, are ruthlessly suppressed, but when it comes to a great combination of newspapers, they come to the House with eloquent, rhetorical invective. If these things are to be dealt with at all, if you are going to bring them up in the House of Commons, it should be to defend administrative or judicial action which you have taken, and not to convict yourselves of failure to take action when action should have been taken. Either these things should be treated with contempt or they should be dealt with with a strong hand. The Government have done neither. They have not treated them with contempt. They have brought them up before the House of Commons and have given the greatest gratuitous advertisement to Lord Northcliffe that he ever had. Is it to be wondered at that a Government with a record like that should be losing the confidence of the country?
We have from since a quarter to four till five minutes past nine been discussing the question as to whether the Home Secretary has been badly treated by the "Times" newspaper, and as to whether the "Times" newspaper and the "Daily Mail" are dangerous to the country. The first part seems to me to have been entirely a personal question between the right hon. Gentleman and the "Times" newspaper. The right hon. Gentleman made a statement which he very frankly owned was erroneous, and he wrote to the "Times" and stated that he had made a mistake. The "Times," in accepting that statement, made some further remark upon whether or not the answer that had been given to a supplementary question was an answer to a question put by a Conservative Member. Is it worth while, when we are engaged in the greatest War that this country has ever seen, to discuss in the House of Commons a question of that sort? Having discussed that question at some length, the right hon. Gentleman proceeded to make an attack upon the "Times" and the "Daily Mail." That was quite a different question, and had nothing whatever to do with the question which was raised when the Debate began. We have been discussing ever since five o'clock, and it is now after nine o'clock, whether or not certain articles in the "Daily Mail" were or were not a danger to the country. One effect has been that the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Pringle) and myself seem to have more or less similar opinions. We had more or less similar opinions one day last week. It is some compensation that that should be so, and I feel that I am greatly to be congratulated that I am on the same side for the moment, and that I was on the same side last week, as the hon. and learned Gentleman.
We are now discussing whether or not these articles in the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" have done injury to our cause. I think that the map in the "Daily Mail" was rather a stupid thing to have published, but I do not believe very many people saw it. If it was a stupid thing, the very worst thing that could have been done was to draw attention to it. I never see the "Daily Mail." I have not the pleasure of the acquaintance of Lord Northcliffe. I am not given any prominent or leaded type when I write a letter to the "Times." Therefore I have no interest in this discussion, except that I do not like to see the time of the House of Commons wasted. The map in the "Daily Mail," as the hon. and learned Gentleman has just said, has been given a great advertisement by the speech of the Home; Secretary. After all, what was the map in the "Daily Mail"? Who would really have attached any importance to it? It was a stupid thing to do, but beyond that I really do not think there was very much harm in it. Now we come to what is, in my mind, a really serious question. The gravamen, so far as I could understand it, of the attack on the "Times" newspaper was that they had criticised the Government. That practically was the whole thing. [An HON. MEMBER: "NO!"] I am glad the Home Secretary has just entered the House, because I do not want in any kind of way to misrepresent him. It seemed to me that the latter part of his speech which dealt with the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" practically amounted to this—I leave out the question of the "Daily Mail" map—that the "Times" or any other newspaper ought not to criticise the Government because—I do not think the right hon. Gentleman himself said this, but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hitchin (Lord Robert Cecil said it—if you criticise them, who are you going to put in the place of the Government? I do not think that has anything to do with the situation. I am not at all sure that we could not put somebody in the place, I will not say of the right hon. Gentleman (the Home Secretary), but of other Members on that Front Bench.
The whole pivot of the speech of the Home Secretary was that it is not right to criticise the Government because foreign countries, Spain in particular, think that we are disunited. That may be so. But are we never to criticise right hon. Gentlemen who sit on that bench? I think it is time that we should say, not only what is in the minds of certain Members of this House, but what is in the minds of a great number of people in this country. I think the Government have had exceptional opportunities. There has never been in the history of this country any Government which has been given the power which this Government has been given. There has never been a Government which has been supported by all sections in the House of Commons as this Government has been supported. I venture to say—I may be wrong, and I may be giving encouragement to our friends in Spain—that I think the Government have not done well. I will not put it stronger than that, but I say that, with their exceptional opportunities, they have not done well. Unless they are kept up to the mark they will do worse in the future. [An HON. MEMBER: "They cannot do!"] I am not so sure about that. It is absolutely necessary that the Government should be criticised, and if, in criticising them, some foreign newspapers take note of that criticism, we cannot help it. It is far and away better to criticise the Government and if they do badly to get them to alter their method of procedure or put someone else in their place, than to run the risk of losing the War for fear lest if you do criticise them some countries may say that we are disunited.
One has only to look back at history to find that in the great wars in which this country has been engaged Governments have always been criticised. In the Crimean war, Lord Aberdeen's Government was not only criticised, but was overthrown, and the result of Lord Aberdeen's Government being overthrown was that we won the war. I see one hon. Member smiles, but I think my statement is correct. It is absolutely necessary, unless we are going to do away with the House of Commons altogether, that there should be criticism not only in the House of Commons, but in the Press. I think we have really wasted this afternoon and evening. However, it ought to be understood that there are a considerable number of Members who do not hold the view that the Government ought not to be criticised. I am sorry that the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs (Lord Robert Cecil) is not here, but I understood him to say that he did not mind the holders of the smaller offices, like the office he holds himself, being criticised, but that the great and good men, the Cabinet Ministers, should not be criticised. I disagree with him altogether. It is the great and good men I want to criticise, and not the under men. I trust that the result of this Debate will be that the newspapers will criticise the Government if they think they are doing wrong, and that Members of this House will also follow their example.
I have not ventured to trespass on the patience of the House previously during the course of this War, but the matter that is now under consideration seems to me so important that those of us who do not usually or constantly speak in the House may find an opportunity for some expression of opinion. It seems to me that the matter now under discussion goes infinitely deeper and is much more significant than would appear from the speech which has been delivered by the hon. Member (Sir F. Banbury). I hope that practical good is going to result from the Debate which the Home Secretary initiated this afternoon. During the course of the Debate my hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Sir W. Byles) seemed to think, so far as I could understand him, that the supreme thing at the present moment was to maintain the liberty of the Press. It seems to me that the supreme thing at this moment is to win this War. If we do not win this War there will be no liberty of the Press left. Consequently, I submit very earnestly that the test which is to be put at this juncture upon every speech in this House, and upon every article in every newspaper, is whether or not it helps forward the final conclusion of this War, and that is a victory for the British arms. I am not able to follow personally what the Home Secretary brought before the House to-day as to the effect upon foreign opinion of what appears in the Press. I think that he has made it manifest that it has such a serious effect that it requires the most anxious consideration of the House. But I can, to some extent, consider what effect it has upon those who are immediately connected with the winning of this War.
This War is not going to be won by speeches in this House, nor by articles in the newspapers. It might be lost by them, but could never be won by them. There is only one way, as I understand, of winning this War, and that is through our fighters at the front and our workers at home, and I personally view every speech which I hear in this House in relation to the effect which it is producing upon the men upon whom we must rely if we are to win the War. I have had some little opportunity of seeing what is going on at the front, and considerably more of seeing what is going on among the workers at home. At the front I was delighted to learn from every quarter that there was unanimity of opinion by Staff officers, brigade officers, and battalion officers as. to their absolute reliance upon our boys at the front, and that they may be relied upon to the last inch to win this War. But at the same time they expressed their intense anxiety about the men at home, the men in the House of Commons, and the writers in the Press, as to whether they had yet realised the responsibility which this country is under. That same feeling I have discovered again and again up and down the country at meetings of munition workers, upon whom at home we have to depend to provide the necessary munitions, of war. Their one anxiety is that those in authority and positions of influence sometimes seem to be more concerned as to attacks upon individual Ministers, or attacks upon the Government, rather than with winning this War.
To those at the front and to those at home anything in the direction of personal political controversy at this stage is absolutely abhorrent. What they ask for from us, from the newspapers, and from all, is the absolute concentration of all our efforts on winning this War, and winning it as speedily as possible. Therefore I am hopeful that this Debate, which the Home Secretary initiated, will have an effect in this one direction. Remarks, have been made that the Government have not taken stronger measures in reference to the papers to which the Home Secretary referred. If I understood the object of his speech aright, it was in the name of the Government to give a definite and clear warning that the Government was watching the effect of articles in the Press as affecting foreign opinion, and all other opinion associated with the War. And if the speech meant anything—and I believe that it meant much—it is a distinct indication that the Government realise that there is a danger to our people and a danger to the success of our arms in a licence of the Press which has gone too far. The Home Secretary-gave us a complete vindication of his personal honour, but to my mind his speech had far more importance as affecting the interests of the country at large, and I earnestly hope that his words will be heard not only in Parliament, but that they will re-echo right through the land, and that we may have done, at any rate for the present, with these miserable personal squabbles and apparent political differences, so that all of us, of all sections and all parties, may unite with all our hearts and all our souls for the one definite purpose of bringing this War to a speedy and triumphant conclusion.
The speech which was delivered by the Noble Lord the Member for Hitch in (Lord Robert Cecil) was the most serious and weighty to which I have listened for a long time in this House. With all his authority as representing the Foreign Office in this House he declared that in his deliberate judgment—and nobody, I think, will say that he is in any way prejudiced in this matter—these articles have had a serious effect upon the cause of the Allies in Europe. My views as to the action of these newspapers are thoroughly well known. I do not in the least pretend to be impartial. I have an old quarrel with the "Times" newspaper which dates long anterior to the War, and I quite confess that I come to the consideration of this matter with somewhat of a biassed mind. But there was one observation made by the Noble Lord for which I thank him. It was a very true observation, and one which has been overlooked by every other speaker in this Debate. That was that abroad for many years—I should say for fifty years—the "Times" newspaper has been looked upon as an official or semi-official Government newspaper in this country. That is a proposition which I have maintained frequently in this House in the days that are gone by in questions to the Foreign Office, and I have been answered always by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs with an indignant denial. I was very glad to hear from the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin the statement in his speech that the "Times" must be looked upon with an extra critical eye when considering what it says in its leading and its special articles, as undoubtedly it has been looked upon throughout Europe as a semiofficial organ of the Government of this country, and I am perfectly convinced from my own knowledge that at times, I do not say now, it was a semi-official organ of the Foreign Office of this country. Therefore there can be no doubt that the statements contained in that newspaper have far greater weight and far greater importance in affecting the minds of neutrals than any statement contained in any other newspaper in this country.
Nobody can doubt—of course, I have long held that opinion, but it has been confirmed by the best possible authority in the House—that the course taken by the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" during the last six months, has had a serious effect on the attitude of neutral countries throughout Europe. I attach very little importance to the map, though I may remark, in passing, if an Irish Sinn Fein newspaper had published that map, the editor would probably be doing his six months' imprisonment. Lord Northcliffe, of course, moves in a different sphere, but it is not that to which I attach importance. It is to the fact that for six months continuously, day in and day out, the "Times" and "Daily Mail" have maintained, in the face of the world, three propositions on which they have based their whole commentary, and their whole criticism of the conduct of the War. They say, first of all, that the Government of this country is grossly incompetent, if not dishonest. Is that likely to afford encouragement to neutral nations? They say that tour Government is hopelessly incompetent, and what chance have we of winning the War? Secondly, they say that the Secretary of State for War is a grossly incompetent man and ought to be got rid of. On that second proposition the "Times" has maintained steadily, and the "Daily Mail" has done so for six months, that the Secretary of State for War was so grossly incompetent as to leave his troops with one shell per gun, and so on through the whole list of charges that have been made. What chance has the country to win the War if everything is to be repeated not once or twice, but every week. In the "Daily Mail" our enemies are informed that this Government have committed every blunder a Government could commit in the conduct of the War. Was that encouraging to Bulgaria to take our side, or to encourage Greece to stand by us? It is a matter which does not require argument. Nearly all foreigners—and this fact has not been sufficiently considered in this Debate— nearly nineteen out of twenty of the people of Europe see only the "Times" or the "Daily Mail" among English newspapers, or extracts from them. The other English newspapers do not circulate to any considerable extent on the European Continent.
These are the two papers which are taken by every foreigner, and if they read week after week that we have an incompetent Government, that the country has no confidence in the Government, that the Minister for War is an imbecile, that our troops are left without munitions, that our Government has committed every blunder, that all the strategy of the War has been wrong, and when they see, also, that everything that has been successfully done in the War is minimised and put into the background, is it any wonder that these nations should have been in doubt what side to take? For myself I believe that the majority of the Bulgarians were with us; I am quite confident of it, but when these things were always held up before their minds from day to day, and when they were told that we were an effete nation, that the people of this country were asleep, that we were a nation of slackers, and that we could not get soldiers—an abominable lie in face of the magnificent rally there has been under the voluntary system—when they heard from week to week of scores of young men walking about the streets of London who would not join the Colours, and that, in point of fact, the only safety for small nations was to get under the protection of the Central Empires. I have not the smallest doubt in my own mind, apart altogether from the quotations we have heard read to-day, that substantially the present position in the Balkans is due to the things said in these two newspapers. Those two newspapers have never ceased to recall and emphasise all the horrors of the Belgian situation, and the fact that the small nations who trust to us come to grief. All the points expressed in those newspapers are repeated and rubbed in as if the object was—what the object is, it is hard to say, but anyone living abroad would suppose it to be—to overthrow the present Government and encourage the enemy.
The real object no doubt was to carry out the programme of this secret meeting held in May, at which those selected for extinction were Mr. Asquith, Sir Edward Grey, Lord Haldane, and Lord Kitchener. That is no doubt the fact; it is well known; and this campaign has been carried on with ruthless determination. Two of those who are on the slate are gone. [An HON. MEMBER: "One member!"] I forgot Lord Kitchener, who has gone for a time, but two others will follow, and take it from me here to-night that this campaign will never cease until those four Ministers disappear. I listened to the patriotic speeches of the hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House and of the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench. They seem to flatter themselves that this Debate tonight will close the attacks. It will do nothing of the kind. I do not know myself, if I had been consulted, that I should have been in favour of this Debate. I agree that the proper course would be to allow those newspapers to run their course, or to strike at them with the power which you constitutionally possess. You will see to-morrow morning by the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" whether they are likely to stop these attacks. I do not for one moment believe that the "Times" will stop the campaign. I do not believe that any consideration of the safety or the danger of the country will interfere with the campaign until the Prime Minister, Sir Edward Grey, and Lord Kitchener are sent the same path as Lord Haldane has been sent. I say that I am not at all sure that this is a useful Debate; it is a very serious Debate; in my opinion it is one of the most serious incidents in the whole course of the War. You need not matter yourselves that you have heard the last of it. It is a death struggle between these Ministers I have named and Lord Northcliffe, and I am not at all sure that Lord Northcliffe is not the greatest power in England to-day. The Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord Robert Cecil), who is always an extremely interesting speaker, said in the course of his speech that he had earned the reputation, which he thought a bit undeserved, of being a very bitter opponent. I do not think it is undeserved; I never remember a more ferocious member of the Opposition, though he is always able and brilliant. He made this remarkable proposition tonight, that his view was like the ancient Roman view, that when a war broke out a dictator should be appointed. There is a great deal to be said for it. I am a democrat and a believer in democracy, although I think the number of believers in it are rapidly shrinking in the world under the pressure of German successes, and that is one of the reasons why we Irish, and I myself personally, are such whole-hearted supporters of the Allies in this War, because I believe the existence of democracy is at stake all over the world. I think there is a great deal to be said for the view of the Noble Lord. Of course anybody who has been in public life as long as I have been must be thoroughly alive to the weakness of democracy as an instrument to carry on a great war, and of a Cabinet such as we possess as an instrument to carry on a war compared with that of the German Emperor, who has a General Staff, and who has no trouble with critics or with the Press, or in co-ordinating, painfully endeavouring to co-ordinate, the divergent views of his Allies. He settled that at the beginning. He took possession of the Austrian Army, and he took very good care—I admire him for it—that there should be one will, and one will only, throughout the whole of the Armies of the Central Powers. That is the advantage which the dictator has, if he is a man of some capacity. I am perfectly alive to the weakness of a democracy to carry on the War. The Noble Lord said that he thought we ought to have a dictatorship, and then, perhaps thinking who the dictator would be, he corrected himself by saying, "I do not mean one dictator; I mean three." I declare to Heaven, I would rather have the twenty-two of a Cabinet than three dictators.
The Cabinet of twenty-two and the House of Commons may be a very poor instrument, but I think it is better than three dictators. One dictator, no doubt, there is much to be said for. Who would be the dictator—Lord Kitchener? Can anyone doubt that if you really had at the beginning considered the question of a dictatorship, Lord Northcliffe would have settled it for you? His man was Lord Kitchener. There is no doubt about it that he forced Lord Kitchener into the War Office, and because he would not obey him there he wants his head. The difficulty about a dictator is that you would probably have got the wrong man. I was amused at reading, which I often do, a weekly article by a man who will be known to some Members, Mr. Blatchford, in the "Weekly Dispatch." They are most interesting articles. He is also for a dictator, and in a recent article in that paper he worked out the whole theory. He wants, of course, to get rid of the present Government. Mr. Blatchford was careful to add that we must always remember, if we have a dictator, the guillotine must be at hand. That is very wholesome—to guillotine the dictator whenever he does not behave himself in the opinion of Mr. Blatchford. There is one other thing that these newspapers have done, which has not been mentioned here to-night, and which, of course, is of interest to the public, and that is this: that at the most critical hour in the whole history of this War, week in, week out, they did everything in their power to embroil this country with America. Over the question of contraband of cotton, at a time when I know that the difficulties of the Foreign Office were great and when it was quite impossible for the Foreign Office to take this House frankly into their confidence over the question of neutrals and the proclamation of cotton as contraband, these two newspapers did everything in their power to embroil us with America at an hour when, if we quarrelled with America, the War was hopelessly lost. They did that when the vast majority of the American people were intensely on our side, and when the President of the United States was fearfully embarrassed by powerful interests who were pressing him to quarrel with this country.
Everybody knows that last spring if America and this country came to loggerheads it would not have been a question of war, but that America could have taken steps which would have destroyed us; yet these two newspapers—and I was watching their action, and had some means of knowing what was going on behind the scenes—following up this purpose of driving out the Foreign Secretary, and that was their avowed purpose, used the fact that the Foreign Office could not frankly discuss the matter or take the House into its confidence, and they did everything in their power, in the most poisonous and malignant manner, to force the Foreign Office into taking action which would have forced the hands of the President of the United States into hostile action against this country. That is another example of what they have been doing for some time. As I have said already, I personally do not think that a full-dress Debate of this kind is the proper way to deal with this question. My opinion is, that Ministers ought to appeal to the public outside this House. The Noble Lord spoke of giving full liberty to the Press, outside military or naval censorship, and trust public opinion. I think that would be the best way, and I believe Ministers would beat Lord Northcliffe's Press on that policy; but they would have to go out and speak to the public and make a firm appeal to the people. But this Press has been carrying on this propaganda unchecked, and why did not Ministers face them and tell the public what they were doing? If they had done so, I believe that Lord Northcliffe's Press would long ago have pulled in its horns, because they follow public opinion and if they start going against them they would soon change their tune.
The only other course would be to use the powers that have been used so freely in Ireland, a course which I personally do not much like, but still it is a course open to them, and would have been more effective than I think this Debate to-night will be. That is to say, if they shut up the "Daily Mail" for a fortnight or three weeks that would cool down Lord Northcliffe's Press. These newspapers have defied the power of the Government and of this House, and have covered the Government with contempt, and I venture to say that the result of this Debate will be that the scandal will be increased rather than diminished. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) complains with indignation that the Government and the Noble Lord object to any criticism of the Government. That raises a question on which I feel very deeply. Remember the attitude of the Irish party towards the Coalition Government. We are reaping now the harvest of the Coalition. You ruined this House as an instrument of criticism by forming the Coalition Government. You formed that Government against the urgent remonstrances and advice of the Irish party. The view we took was the constitutional view with regard to this matter, and recollect that we have great experience on these questions, because the older Members of our party have been here for some thirty years, and we have seen the working of this machine and tested it more than most Members have had the opportunity of doing. Our view was that even in war time the best and only instrument of criticism which the English people could understand was the criticism of a patriotic and responsible Opposition. Instead of strengthening the Government by forming the Coalition, you weakened it by depriving it of what I considered to be a great source of strength, and that is a really patriotic Opposition. Deep and bitter as are the quarrels we have had with the Opposition, I must say —I do not know whether they will take it as an insult coming from me, but I am an old and experienced Member of the House —I do not believe in history there ever was in the course of a great war a more patriotic, a more restrained, a more moderae, or a more generous Opposition than the Opposition during the first six months of the War. There was not uttered throughout that time a single word which could assist the enemy or embarrass the Government or in any way impede their action. I have never been able to see the object of doing what was described in the "Morning Post," or in one of the papers we are discussing, as swallowing up part of the Opposition and paralysing the rest.
What has been the result? In a democratic country you cannot, no matter how tightly you pull the reins, get rid of criticism; it is impossible unless you are prepared to Prussianise the country completely. The result has been that in this House we have had irresponsible, sporadic criticism, because there has been no opportunity for organisation or consultation, while outside the House you have had the violent criticism of the Press. If you had had a responsible Opposition you would not have had so much trouble with the Harmsworth Press, because the Opposition are always in a position to put some restraint upon the Press supporting it, and the action of the Opposition Front Bench would have mitigated the evil that arose. The fact is, this country knows only one instrument of Government. That instrument of Government throughout all the years I have been in this House has over and over again been subjected to criticism. We have had long debates on the party system and the many evils attaching to it. All the most experienced men who have sat in this House or taken part in the Government, or studied the history of the country, have, without exception, agreed that England understands only one instrument of government. If you destroy that instrument of Government you produce an unknown situation. I believe that many of the evils which we have now to face have arisen altogether from the forming of a Coalition Government, or a national Government representing all parties. I dare say we thought we were doing a fine thing in imitating France. The French have never had party Government in their history; they do not know what party Government means. They have Government by groups. They have not grown to the measure of party Government. But because we saw the French doing what was very likely a fine thing for them at the commencement of the War, getting all their groups together and forming a genuine National Government, we thought we could not do better than follow their example. At least, I suppose that that was one of the reason.
A Vote of Censure!
Far better to have had a Vote of Censure, because then you would have had an alternative Government to put in its place. If this Government is overthrown, who is to take its place?
What I meant was, that there was a-threat of a Vote of Censure being moved.
Then, if I had been a Minister, I would have faced the Vote of Censure like a man, and said, "Either you will give me your confidence to carry on the Government or you will withdraw your confidence." We would then have got a Government that had the confidence of the House of Commons. You amalgamate the two parties, and you have man after man getting up defending newspapers who declare that this Government, composed of all the best men—that is, the men who lead both parties in the House —is an incompetent and worthless Government, utterly unable to conduct the War. That is the result of not following the regular course of British politics. Once you depart from that system you get into very deep waters indeed. That is the situation in which we are now placed. It is a very difficult situation. I do not know what will come out of it. Of one thing I am certain—that we are not near the end of it. This war between two powerful newspapers and the Government—it is horrible to think that these newspapers are great and powerful, and that they are locked in conflict with the Government— is one shocking result of the formation of a Coalition Government. I am not at all sure who will succeed. I am afraid that this Government will never have the courage to deal with them, and so long as they do not these newspapers will never cease their quarrel. They will never cease their quarrel from any sense of decency or fear until the four Ministers I have named leave that bench.
Now let me say a word about the position of the Irish party. We have grave reason to complain. During the last year we have had almost incredible grievances against the administration of the War Office. We could have denounced Lord Kitchener for many things. We had a great grievance in the formation of the Coalition Government, about which we were never consulted. Considering the faithful support that we had given to the previous Government, I think we ought to have been consulted. We had a grievance also based on the inclusion in the Government of the Member for Dublin University. We protested against it in the bitterest possible way, but we were overruled. I do not think the Government now are very glad that they overruled us. I think they probably wish that they had listened to our advice in the matter. But having given our pledge to support this country and the Allies, and having risked the whole of our political career after thirty-five years of strenuous labour, we were not going to turn back. We could have raised Debates; we could have attacked the Government; we could have dwelt on your failures and mistakes and troubles. But we have never done so. We have steadfastly supported the successive Governments in the conduct of the War. We have never countenanced what is called "peace talk" or anything calculated to weaken the attitude of the Government. In spite of all we have had to bear we mean to continue that policy, in order to prove, as I hope we shall be able to prove during this Debate, that the pledge of an Irishman is worth obtaining, and that once it is obtained it can be relied upon. This, I think, does give us some title, some right, to criticise conduct such as that which has been carried on recklessly, and without thought of its consequences, in the pursuit of a vendetta against four Ministers of the Crown by the Northcliffe Press for the last six months.
I heartily agree with the hon. Member for East Mayo. We have listened to a very cogent and very interesting speech from him, perhaps the most interesting speech in this Debate. I agree with him most heartily in respect to the position taken up and occupied by the "Times" on the Continent. In regard to this I want to make a suggestion. There is not the slightest doubt that the "Times" on the Continent, and certainly in all neutral and smaller countries, is regarded as a semi-official organ. I do not say it is so universally regarded now as it was, but my experience during the last few months on the Continent is that it is still quoted as a semi-official organ, and it carries weight accordingly. It is thought—I do not believe for one moment it is true—that the Foreign Office is in. regular communication with the "Times," and sends intimations to the "Times" that other papers are not able to avail themselves of, at any rate so rapidly, and so readily. That being so, it becomes of the utmost importance to examine the statements made by the hon. Member for East Mayo, and to ask ourselves whether the House and the Government ought not to take action, action which perhaps they would in no way take in the case of any other newspaper. I cannot conceive any reason why the "Daily Mail" should be exempted, and the "Globe" suffer. As far as the "Times" is concerned, it is in an entirely different position. I should like to suggest to the Government that they might very fairly, under the circumstances—and it would be a very proper thing, and no harm—since the "Times" is regarded on the Continent in quite a different way to any other paper in this country, commandeer the "Times," take it over, and run it as a Government journal until the end of the War. You may have your difficulties. That is perfectly true. We are spending enough money, goodness knows, on the War, and it would not be difficult to finance a paper. In Germany they know something about this business. They are financing scores of newspapers on the Continent. Therefore, I think we might very well finance one.
10.0 P.M.
The point of the hon. Member was that the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" are chiefly quoted and circulated on the Continent, and that is true. Go to any neutral country. Take Holland, where I have been several times of late. Of all the English papers that are read there the most universally are the "Times" and the "Daily Mail." You see them constantly quoted in the Dutch papers. Indeed, a Dutch Minister said to me that he still regarded the "Times" as being in a sense an official paper. He said this was not because it had any close connection with the Government, or was owned by the Government, or anything of that sort, but because it was the most important organ in the Kingdom, and because they dared not leave the "Times" out of account. I may add that he went on to say that he read all the important German newspapers, and he read all the English papers that he could lay his hands upon, and he had come to the conclusion that the German papers, on the whole, were more reliable than' the English papers. That was his unbiassed opinion. I asked the right hon. Gentleman who opened this Debate the reasons why the late Government took the course they did. He defended himself, as I thought, in a most admirable fashion. He then proceeded to deal with these two papers. Is he not in a very weak position? Has he not made a most damaging attack upon the papers that deserve to be damaged, and is he not in his heart of hearts convinced that the hon. Member for East Mayo is right when he says that the only result will be that the right hon. Gentleman will be attacked to-morrow more bitterly, and more ceaselessly than ever, and that the-Government will not escape one single iota of blame for what has been said to-day. Personally, I am most distressed because of this Debate. I do not see any result. I was hoping that the right hon. Gentleman would wind up by saying that the Government had now this matter not only under serious consideration, but that they were determined to take some action, determined to do something to put an end to this vendetta—for it is nothing more than a vendetta—against three or four Cabinet Ministers. I leave the suggestion; to the right hon. Gentleman. I am perfectly convinced that the "Times" will go abroad on the Continent, that it will be quoted again and again, that its utterances will be regarded as official or semiofficial utterances, and that it will do infinite harm to the cause of Great Britain; and the Allies. Under these circumstances, I humbly suggest to the Government that they should immediately consider the advisability of taking over the "Times" and running it until the end of the War as a Government organ.
I have listened to the greater part of this Debate, and I desire to add my tribute to the tribute which has been paid to the hon. Member for East Mayo for the weighty and interesting speech he has made. He will perhaps forgive me if I do not follow him into his very interesting criticism of the Coalition Government. There is much to be said for the suggestions and arguments he has put before the House, but I think perhaps there are weightier reasons against. The thought that was perhaps uppermost in my mind when the hon. Member for East Mayo sat down was that these times, and these Debates, give us; some strange friends and some strange enemies. I could hardly have thought that I should so soon find myself sitting so near the hon. Gentleman and agreeing to so much of what he has said, nor, on the other hand, that I should find myself surrounded by hon. Members with whose political convictions I have been in so close concord for so many years only to find that on this subject I think there is not one single criticism of the Government which they have passed with which I agree. I might perhaps be permitted to say, in reference to the remark which fell from the hon. Member for East Mayo, and which, I think, was one of the many pregnant remarks he gave to the House, that this was perhaps a very much more weighty matter than hon. Members appreciate. It neither begins nor ends with a quarrel, either petty or great, between a Minister and the proprietor of a certain paper. There is a great principle involved, a principle which to my mind is so serious that the House must sooner or later support or refuse to support some decisive action of the Government, and must say whether they are prepared that the Government shall rule the Press or that the Press shall rule the Government. That seems to me the principle which is involved, and I am sure it was that principle which the hon. Member for East Mayo had in his mind when he made that remark.
As to the complaint that too much attention had been given to this matter in that the Government gave an opportunity to the House to discuss it on a Motion of this sort, I think that is unfair. There are many of us who think that the attacks of the Northcliffe Press are not deserving of having so much time of the House given to them, but we must remember that if the Home Secretary had met these vile, slanderous, and untruthful attacks by a merely ex-parte statement in this House, we can picture what would be the reply in these papers. What would have been the comment of the hon. Member for Mansfield? I am convinced that the Home Secretary, while he took an action of which many of us regret the necessity, took the bold course in saying, "I will make no ex-parte statement, and no statement which my critics shall not have ample opportunity of answering." We have heard to-night from the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a dissertation on the subject of dictatorship, and I think the suggestion he made—of course, it was only a personal suggestion—had the approval of a very large number of Members in this House, but at present, fortunately or unfortunately, it is not in the political offing. We are still a democracy, and we have to rule according to the wishes and the desires of democracy. I believe the democracy of this country demands the firm hand of the Government.
I do not believe for one moment that the democracy of the country is behind these base and slanderous attacks on Ministers, and it is because I am a democrat, and it is because this House is a democratic assembly, that I the more urge a strong hand against the attacks on the Government and Ministers for ulterior motives.
It seems to me the House has got to decide that, whether the rules made by the Government are good or whether they are bad, it will not tolerate any paper taking the law into its own hands and deliberately and flagrantly breaking those rules which are made by our governors for the protection of the State. If you do not think these rules are good for the people you must get rid of the men who make them, but so long as they have the approval of this House, so long must those journals obey them. I do respectfully submit to hon. Members that they are taking upon themselves a very grave responsibility when they know certain journals frequently and regularly break those rules, and we invariably find almost the same handful of hon. Members are prepared to stand up in their place and defend them every time they do it. Prominent among those advocates of the unruly section of the Press is the hon. Member for Mansfield.
I did not even receive a Whip that this was coming on, and I had no opportunity of getting any quotation to deal with it.
I gather from the hon. Baronet that his speech did not receive very much preparation. It is, of course, perfectly fair to criticise the Government within limits, and it is equally impossible to define those limits. It is perfectly fair for the hon. Baronet and his Friends to say that the Government do not do enough propaganda work in foreign countries, though such a criticism would not carry very much weight with me, because I do not think hon. Members, like myself, have any knowledge of what the Government is doing in foreign countries. It would be perfectly fair to say that the Government ought to prosecute those papers. That is the only criticism I have heard this afternoon in which I think there is any weight at all. I myself was not satisfied with the Home Secretary's explanation as to why the Government did not prosecute those papers, but may there not be many considerations by which they are influenced? May it not be that it is quite possible there are considerations which never occur to us who are not behind the scenes as to why these papers should not be prosecuted unless their behaviour becomes so intolerable that in the interest of the nation they must be prosecuted? I can quite conceive reasons why you should prefer to warn, and even warn again, these papers rather than drag them into Court, if you can possibly avoid so drastic an action.
But all these criticisms seem to me to come from a handful of hon. Members. I undertake to say there is not a Member in this House who could not stand up day after day and pour out criticism on the Government. It is perfectly simple. But I ask the House to consider, not where this Government would be, but where any Government would be in these awful and tragic times if every Member in this House were to have free licence of criticism. I venture to ask hon. Members who have not placed, I think, that restraint on their criticisms which in the interest of the nation they ought to place, whether it has never occurred to them that there are few of us who could not criticise this or any other Government, and I ask them to consider whether by not exercising that restraint they are not doing a most damaging thing not only to our cause here, but to our Allies and in neutral countries. We have had a most interesting suggestion from my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. Duke) that it might be desirable that we should do without any censorship at all; and I think as regards foreign matters, at any rate, the Noble Lord the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs rather agreed with that view.
My hon. and learned Friend will pardon me. I did not suggest that, but quite the contrary.
I am very much obliged to my right hon. and learned Friend, and I accept the correction. It was during his speech that the Noble Lord made the suggestion, and I wrongly attributed it to my right hon. and learned Friend. That suggestion, if I may say so, was not a practical one. I venture to say—and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy will agree with me—that it is not a suggestion which would receive the approval of the Press. Of course, I do not ask him to speak for the whole Press, especially on the spur of the moment, but I throw out the suggestion that it is a proposal that would not be approved by the Press. It would not be a proposal made or dictated in the interests of the Press, because I believe the Press, and particularly the London Press, desire more than any other body that the censorship should be made. They desire that it should be made because under it the well-conducted and patriotic papers have a security. There is a lessening of risk which they would not have if you took away from them the opportunity of submitting their articles for censorship, and I speak with some knowledge, although it dates back to the first four, five, or six months of the War. I am convinced I am right when I say the London Press would much prefer that the machinery of censorship should remain in order that it might afford them that protection and security which the right to submit to the Press Bureau obviously gives them. Certainly my right hon. and learned Friend did make a suggestion as to the possibility, or, if necessary, the desirability of censoring every paper in London. Of course, that is impracticable.
My hon. and learned Friend misapprehends me again. The Government have the power to place in the office of a newspaper a censor, but I did not say they should use it for every well-conducted newspaper.
I appreciate that. I think if the right hon. and learned Member reads his speech to-morrow he will see, not that he suggested we should censor every paper in London, but the suggestion was that the Government has already the power if it ever became necessary to exercise it. He certainly suggested, as he reminded us, that if it became necessary we could place a censor in every newspaper office in London, or in the country, so far as that goes. But that is impracticable and impossible. We cannot extend the army of censors. It is quite obvious that nine-tenths of the mistakes made by censors are due to the fact that they are already a very large body, and relying, as you must do, on the human element, there are always mistakes, and the more you increase your censors, the more likely are you to increase the area in which you can make mistakes. I do not think that that proposal, or any such proposal for the extension of the censorship, is practical at all. What I conceive we want is to convince the Press that the censorship is there for their protection, that they have free access to it at any hour of the day, and to impress upon them that if they elect to take the risk of not submitting their articles to censorship the gravity of their offence must necessarily be all the greater. In the recent case of the "Globe" the right hon. Gentleman omitted to remind the House that the "Globe" never submitted either of those offensive articles to the Press Bureau. They have known for over twelve months that they have the power to submit such articles, and they have deliberately elected, as they invariably elected, not to submit their articles, but to take the risk. The "Globe" never does submit an article to the Press Bureau once a month, or even for two or three months, but they deliberately elect to take the risk, and where a paper does that the gravity of its offence is very much increased, and it is a matter which must weigh with the authorities, especially in respect of a paper like the "Globe," and many of the Northcliffe papers, which are offending week after week against the rules laid down by the constituted authorities. It has been urged by some speakers that we must maintain the liberty of the Press; but is it by punishing the black sheep of the Press that you are going to maintain that liberty which every one of us values? The moment a paper offends, from that moment you will find fresh restrictions will be placed on the Press.
Offends whom?
Offends against the Rules adopted by this House, and now in force. Every time a paper offends the more necessary it becomes to place further restrictions upon the papers that do not offend. I will give a striking instance which will, perhaps, interest the hon. Baronet the Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham). He told us that Colonel Repington's articles were always submitted to censorship. Does the hon. Baronet know why? Does he know that Colonel Repington, in the first few months of this War, wrote an article so dangerous and so damaging to the cause of the Allies that protests came from France, not from some underling of the Censor, but from the Commander-in-Chief of the French and the Commander-in-Chief of the British Forces, and in consequence of that article not being submitted to the Press Bureau, an article so dangerous that it called forth these violent protests—in consequence of that offence, it became necessary to issue an order to the whole Press that no article which purported to be written by a military expert should be printed without submission to the Press Bureau. If you find papers will obey the rules laid down by the authorities, you will find the restrictions of the Press are gradually removed and the liberty of the Press and free speech increases and grows. I venture to say that we are doing a most dangerous thing in supporting any paper—I do not care to what political party it is or used to be attached—which takes the law into its own hands and says, "I do not know what your rules are; I will not submit to your Press Bureau; I will proceed in my own way and take the risk." It is most dangerous for any hon. Member in this House to support a paper, whether it is right or wrong on the particular question, which openly and deliberately flouts the Government and the rules which have been made for the protection of society and in order to assist the Government to continue the proper prosecution of this War. I not only deprecate that, but I deprecate a much smaller matter—the entirely irrelevant observations of the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division (Sir A. Markham). What, in Heaven's name, has the appointment of Mr. Masterman or Mr. Mair to do with questions so important and so far-reaching as those which are now under discussion? I venture to say that there is not a Member in the House who has the slightest idea now what was the point of the hon. Baronet.
I am in the recollection of the House, and I distinctly stated that the business of Mr. Masterman was to supply the Government daily with these foreign cuttings.
Does the hon. Baronet complain of his appointment? If he does not, then I ask what is the point of the hon. Baronet? Is there anything wrong in the appointment of any gentleman able to do the work and furnish the information? The hon. Baronet says, "No, there is nothing wrong." If that is the best explanation which the hon. Baronet can give of his irrelevant and petty observations about the appointment of Mr. Masterman and Mr. Mair, I really do think that it is a waste of his own time and of the House in making them. When this House was interested in political matters there was no Member of the Government, from my point of view, more unpleasant—I do not mean personally, but politically—than Mr. Masterman, but for anybody in these days to take up the time of the House by criticising his appointment because he used occasionaly to write for the "Daily Chronicle "—
He does now.
I do not know whether the hon. Member knows that for a fact.
He writes under his own name.
He may, but what has that to do with it? Mr. Masterman is not looking through London papers, but foreign papers. Is the suggestion of the hon. Baronet that Mr. Masterman, being a well-known Liberal who contributed to the "Daily Chronicle," looked through these papers and sent this particular translation? Is that the point and the suggestion of the hon. Baronet? I am glad to see that the hon. Baronet does not stand up and make the suggestion.
I have repeated the same thing time after time. I have no objection to the appointment of Mr. Masterman, qua Mr. Masterman, but it is very unfortunate that the Government should have selected a person for this office who is employed by, and is a constant contributor to, a party newspaper, namely, the "Daily Chronicle," seeing the bitterness between the two papers, the "Daily Chronicle" and the "Times."
If that is all the hon. Baronet's point, I must say it is a very small one. He is not examining English papers; he is examining foreign papers. He is not sending the results of his examination to the London papers; he is sending them to the Cabinet, and he is not in a position to discriminate between London papers. I repeat the point is an exceedingly small one. Then the statement was made that Mr. Meyer—
Mr. Mair; he is a Scotsman.
It seems to me quite irrelevant whether he is a Scotsman or an Englishman; at any rate, he is not a member of the "Chronicle" staff.
He was at one time.
He is not now. These points are really very petty. The suggestions behind them are very mislead- ing, and I think the House has the right to expect, after sixteen months of war, that hon. Members should try and confine themselves to matters of greater importance and of greater public interest. I hope the Home Secretary will most carefully watch future publications of these journals. I hope, further, that these journals will take the warning which was suggested in the right hon. Gentleman's speech and a warning which I think they ought to take from this Debate. I hope, too, that the Government will, without hesitation, take the most drastic steps against each or either of these newspapers if it becomes necessary.
And any other.
Yes, and any other. Let me remind the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth), who is so clever with a rather baseless insinuation, that no single hon. Member, so far as I know, has risen in his place to-day and cited one single article in any one of these papers in respect of which the ownership ought to be prosecuted.
Yes, one article has been referred to.
I read that article; it was one which, rightly or wrongly, was answering a baseless criticism that had appeared in another journal. But it is not worth while going into that. No case has been made out for prosecuting other papers. No suggestion has been substantiated to the effect that there is any preference whatever given to any particular class of paper, either in the Press Bureau or anywhere else. We have heard from my Noble Friend the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs that the complaints which come to the Foreign Office against the Harmsworth newspapers are infinitely more numerous than those against any other paper. I am sure the House will acquit my Noble Friend of having any great sympathy with Liberal newspapers. But the complaints, which come from abroad are very much more numerous against the Harmsworth papers. I would suggest to hon. Members, that they should try to get permission from the Home Secretary to visit the Press. Bureau and go through privately some correspondence which has taken place between the authorities and the Harmsworth newspapers during the last fifteen months. I believe that any hon. Member who went through that correspondence and saw the long list of serious complaints against those papers, and the answers, into which can always be read a determination to flout authority—if any unbiassed Member of this House went carefully into the relationship between those papers and the authorities he would have to come to the conclusion that the papers have been treated all too leniently too long, and would join with me in the suggestion that the Government should exercise a strong hand and show these papers that they are determined to govern this country, and not to allow it to be done by Lord Northcliffe, who has done, perhaps, some good, but certainly untold harm to the interests of this country, both here and abroad,
My first task is to deal with two myths: one invented by the Government and the other by an hon. Member opposite. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary invented a most extraordinary idea—he will forgive me for saying so—which was generally received with consternation in this House. It was that the Coalition Government was brought into being by Lord Northcliffe. My right hon. Friend has a boxfull of extracts from the "Times," but I venture to say he could not produce one which would give the slightest foundation to that suggestion. As a matter of fact, the newspapers were against this idea, including Lord Northcliffe. It was opposed by the Northcliffe Press and by all the others. I went about the Lobby here interviewing Pressmen, and not a single newspaper would countenance the suggestion. I saw a short time ago in the "Star" a leading article attacking the "Morning Post," and in order to add a little to their diatribe they said: painting to the Ministerial Benches above the Gangway ]—whence I had to escape, they cheered to the echo, turned round and asked why I put such a foolish question. I put it one Wednesday, and the following Wednesday the Coalition Government was in being, scarcely before the cheers of my hon. Friends had died away. What was the truth with regard to the "Morning Post"? The "Morning Post" had been good enough to give a little space to my conflict with the Government on the Meyer contract. Differing a little from some of these politicians, I went to the "Morning Post" with my question about a Coalition Government. They said, "Oh, yes, we will print it, but we are resolutely opposed to it." That was the first newspaper that printed my question. At the same time they proceeded to repudiate the suggestion, and said they did not think it would meet with approval in any quarter of the House. Now I find members of the Cabinet and my own personal and political friends actually cherishing the myth that the Coalition Government was brought into being by the Conservative Press. There were Liberal newspapers in touch with members of the Government—they go to them for the crumbs that fall from the table—who actually on the Wednesday morning printed articles denouncing the suggestion I had made and saying that in making it I was a sort of Ishmaelite, and that they did not think I had more than one or two cranks to support me. They were, of course unconsciously, using that phrase with regard to some very dignified people. Those are the facts. Now, after at few short months we are here in the House of Commons inventing myths and recording them in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I hope they will be killed once for all.
If I may say so to the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), the reason, which he has overlooked, why the Coalition Government was necessary was this—it was upon this footing alone that I urged it. [Laughter.] I hear a certain amount of laughter. I heard it when my question was put. Why did I urge it? I utterly failed to get any of these newspapers, and even any of the members of the Cabinet, to agree with me for some considerable time. I said that the exactions that would need to be made in finance before the Wax was concluded would be so heavy upon the community that no party Government would be strong enough to make them. That was my case. That was the plea I urged upon some members of the Cabinet who favoured me with an audience. The newspapers were entirely left behind. They neither brought it about nor heard that it was coming about until the announcement was made. I do not know what answer my hon. Friend could give when I say that you could not have passed the Finance (No. 3) Bill that is now going through the House, including an Excess. Profits Tax, under a party Government. You could not have gone to the community and asked for all American securities to be handed over to the Government, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer will do to-morrow. I do not think you could have gone rightly or with sufficient assurance under the party system. We are in the middle of the War and when we hear remarks about half the people's income being wanted and even about a compulsory levy upon capital, I want hon. Members to realise that those few of us, the handful who were advocating for several months the formation of a Coalition Government, had the financial point principally in mind, and I challenge any hon. Member to say we can get through an expensive War like this under the party system. I know it has a kind of interest for my hon. Friends below the Gangway on the other side. I leave the case in the hands of their leaders, but I cannot conceive that the time will ever come when I shall be lukewarm in my love for the Irish cause.
The hon. Member (Mr. Dillon), I think, made a mistake. He said that if the Coalition Government had not been formed the Northcliffe Press would not have attacked Lord Kitchener. But they were doing it before the Coalition Government was formed. The hon. Member's memory has played him false. They were out against Lord Kitchener before that. In fact, it was openly stated by some that if the "Times" had not been so bitter in its attack upon Lord Kitchener when the Coalition Government was formed he would have left the War Office. I mention that, not because I approve of the sentiment, but to remind hon. Members that it was prior to that date that the "Daily Mail" made its attack upon Lord Kitchener. Therefore that was possible under the party system. There was no effective criticism of this Government before the Coalition was formed. Where did it come from? The small amount of criticism there was was in regard to certain contracts or to looseness of expenditure which some of us made. Frequently the Leader of the Opposition would get up and say that while he thought our criticism had a good deal of substance, he must appeal to us not to press it. That was the only contribution which was made by the Leader of the Opposition under the party system. There has been more plain speaking and more healthy conversation since the Coalition Government was formed than ever before. Take the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) himself. He has made, I think, five or six of the greatest speeches of his life, in which he has spoken out in a free and frank way, and whether we have agreed with all his points or not—he will not expect us to agree with all he says—we have admitted the great power with which he has spoken. But he never did that under the party system. He never rose to his feet to guide us upon these important matters then, but he has found an opportunity since, and I am glad he has. I therefore claim that, in his own case, he has supplied an illustration adverse to the theory that he was impressing upon the House.
With regard to the subject before the House to-night, I do not propose to add anything to what, I think, has been a troublesome and unnecessary discussion. I could not work up any enthusiasm about it at all. I could not get warm about it. I simply view it more or less from a neutral standpoint. I do not take sides. I have not been an admirer of the Northcliffe Press, but I certainly do not advocate on that ground that they should be treated unjustly. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. H. Smith) seems to think that if any newspaper offends the Government that is sufficient for it to be knocked on the head. That is a very nice doctrine if you have powerful friends at Court, but as I have not any relative in the Government I shall hesitate about attaching myself to any newspaper. But surely, in this land of liberty and freedom, and in this House above all buildings, the mere fact that we do not like what a newspaper says, or even think it is in error, is no reason for injuring or suppressing it! Take the case of the "Globe." I think it was magnified out of all recognition. I do not consider that it did the least harm to this country in any neutral State. There are far more serious things than that printed. The "Globe," it is true, printed a wrong statement, but it also printed the Government denial, and its readers could choose between the two. It also reproduced the announcement from the Press Bureau. Therefore, in addition to stating what it wished to state it published what the Government wanted to say.
An HON. MEMBER: When it had got its lie in.
All that can happen to any newspaper which prints a lie of its own side by side with Government's truth is to damage itself. If a newspaper does wrong, ask it not to offend again or prosecute it in Court. I have no leaning to the "Globe." If any hon. Member searched files of the "Globe" they would not find a single reference to the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) but what was damaging and, in my opinion, unjust. I have never found any comment in the "Globe" in regard to myself that I thought was fair. All the more reason, therefore, why I should not to seek to do an injury to them. There is on this side of the House, as well as, I think, a little on the other side, hostility to some of these newspapers because of past party fights. I think that ought to be abandoned. I thank the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon) for being candid on this point, and I hope that the moral will be drawn among some of my Friends. I take it myself, and I hope my hon. Friends will do the same. The hon. Member said that on account of past fights and long bitter conflicts he was not in a position to address the Rouse in regard to the "Times" and the "Daily Mail" unbiassed. That was a manly and straightforward statement. Those of us who have been for years in bitter opposition to certain newspapers are too prejudiced to take a calm and judicial view. I do not profess to be equal to that, so I will leave the matter.
I have never in my life, either in this House or out of it, spoken a word upon the foreign policy of this country. The "Globe" once printed a paragraph to the effect that certain foreign matters would be discussed in this House, and it added that no doubt the hon. Member for North Stafford (Sir W. Byles) and myself would be on our feet as usual. There are scribblers up in the Press Gallery—I am not alluding to all of them—but there are two or three scribblers there who are prepared to print in their newspapers that I have been putting questions in regard to the conduct of the War. Hon. Members cannot find one. Never since the War started have I put a question to the Government about its conduct, and never have I put a question upon foreign policy. That is because when I stood for election five years ago I decided that for the first five years I would be a student. The five years are up to-night. I want to be quite frank and to say that having served my apprenticeship—I have been open to chiding for being violent—the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench will perhaps think that five years' silence has entitled me to put questions to them. I cannot resume my seat without expressing my regret that we have spent a day like this, at a time when one of our gallant little Allies is bleeding to death. I do not think that there has been any expression of opinion from the Back Benches as to the unfortunate plight in which our gallant little Ally is now placed. I want to say to any poor member of the Belgrade Parliament, who is now being hunted like a partridge on the mountains, if my words can only reach him, that as far as the rank and file of the Members of this House are concerned it is not our fault that Serbia has been deserted. I do not attribute blame to anyone, but it is a lamentable fact that while we are here spending a day of this kind the poor women and children are lying in the snow on the roadsides of Serbia. If help was not given in time it was not because the rank and file of Members of this House were in the least bit lacking in affection for that gallant little Ally of ours. We would have voted anything and passed any measures, and supported any vigorous Government action to try to save that little people. I do not know how much we are to blame as Members of this House for keeping quiet. I do not know whom to blame. The position at present is so awful and so terrible that I cannot find words to express my appreciation of it. I was enabled, through an organisation with which I am connected, to send two hospital units to Serbia, largely at the suggestion and with the financial help of my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham). I do not know whether they are still alive or what has happened to them or to the valuable stores which we sent to Serbia. It does seem to me that at the right time—it is not now—we must have a most searching inquiry into the position in which we find ourselves. I sometimes think that if we had had a vigorous and critical opposition more would have been done for Serbia. I cannot get out of my mind that, if Members of this House on both sides had had some kind of organisation for bringing pressure to bear on the Government to be more vigorous and more energetic when they saw a little nation in danger, the Government would have acted more speedily. I may be wrong in this. I suspend judgment until we get fuller information, but I could not let this opportunity pass without saying that it is not the fault of the rank and file of Members of this House if more has not been done for that gallant little nation called Serbia.
I could not help feeling, while listening to this discussion, that after all some little may be learned from it. Perhaps the Government will feel to-day, as one of the principal gains from the discussion, that it is stronger in its seat than it was before the Debate opened. We have listened in the last few speeches to praises of the Government and admiration for all its members. One hon. Member claimed to be its putative father, and another assured us, not in so many words, but in spirit, that blood is thicker than criticism. So I think, taking the Government on that basis, with that support, we may take heart of grace and go on by its agency to matters of greater importance than have yet been accomplished. But let me pass all that. I listened to this Debate with feelings of deep regret. Let me say seriously and soberly, as an old party man, that the leaders of the Government, my leaders and my chiefs, are men in the main whom I strive to admire and have on the whole loyally followed, and at a time like this, when we have put in suspense political feelings, and as far as we can have put behind us the theories and practice of a lifetime in order to support national government, we do want from the Government in these days of crisis strength, vigour, and determination.
I wish this case that has been advanced to-night had been in other hands than those in which it was found. The Home Secretary will not, I hope and believe, think that he has a warmer admirer in this House than myself. But there was to me a rather sad and discouraging significance in the tone he adopted in dealing with this matter. It bore out, as the hon. Member for East Mayo remarked, the tremendous and portentous power of the great newspaper syndicates in the country. We had a Minister of the Crown coming down to the House, ostensibly and rightly, to defend what he considered was a charge of dishonour. The House is always ready to listen with patience and sympathy to any man who feels that duty laid upon him. I could have wished that he had either stopped there or, if he felt it his duty to go further, that the keynote of his remarks had been bolder, loftier, and sterner. It was discouraging to me and to other of his supporters that, again and again, in his remarks upon the quotations he had to make from these malignant journals, he was just as eager to reassure the House as to the bona fides of these journals as he was to pillory them for things they had evilly said on the conduct of the Government. "Are they not all honourable men?" Why grind that axe? It was not his business, it seems to me, with all respect, to go out of his way to give counsel and support as to the bona fides of those papers. They have been, as he knows, the enemies of this country's interests for months and months past, and, as the hon. Member for East Mayo said, they will continue to be enemies until they are taken by the throat with a bold and daring hand. I listened to the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin, who followed the right hon. Gentleman, and he also seemed to take a weak note. I had expected, after having heard him from the corner of the Opposition Benches, that we should at any rate have a note of righteous indignation on a matter of national importance. There was the same honeyed reference to the good intentions of these papers, there was the same endeavour to insist upon their bona fides, their public spirit, and all the rest of it. It seems to me that we do not want those papers to be brought up at all, if they are merely to be praised with faint damns.
The average man in the street feels that some of the things they are doing come perilously near to treason to their country. I listened with great disgust and unrest to the remarks of the Noble Lord. Amplifying the, on the whole, sufficient utterance of the Home Secretary, he began to refer to the possibly prospective attitude of the Government in regard to happenings of this kind in the future. He sketched out the possibility of a partial or a very large suspension of the censorship, and on the top of that he referred to some peculiar arrangement which seemed to be—so far as one could read into his words the meaning—to throw the responsibility on the Press of the right of competition in handling items of news, which I look upon with a great deal of disquiet and uncertainty. I am sure that in this time of war unless we control closely and carefully the Press of this country, and unless the Government makes up its mind not merely to censor certain articles of news but the whole contents of the papers, from the title to the imprint, there will be no end of this business. I do sincerely hope that if this matter should ever have occasion to obtrude its ugly head in Debates in this House again, the splendid example of our Leader the Prime Minister may be followed. He felt himself strong enough to dismiss all these things with a biting sentence, and it was enough. I sincerely hope the Government will be courageous in this matter in the interests of the country and of the common men who are full of enthusiasm and full of patriotism, and that they will do something to stop all this slander of these malignant advertisements, and that we shall not have words of divided counsel; and that we shall not have any counsel or message to the Allies that will dishearten or weaken the support of the Allies or of neutrals; or that will hearten the malignant and diabolical powers that we are leagued together to fight to the death.
Although, perhaps, mine may be a simple faith, yet I have derived great encouragement from this Debate for thinking that good will come out of it and that the section of the Press that has been called in question will take the hint that has been given to them. Surely they will acknowledge what has been said in the House of Commons? and the general tenour of the Debate has met with the acceptance of all parties, with one or two exceptions. Even hon. Members opposite who support this section of the Press hold that there have been faults. I trust Lord Northcliffe will attend very carefully to what has been said to-day and that those responsible will mend their ways, so that we may see a different result, especially after the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Exeter (Mr. Duke) and the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord Robert Cecil), men who spoke with quite unbiassed judgment as far as the papers in question are concerned. I would make one appeal to my Friends below the Gangway, to the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel), and my brilliant Friend the Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle), who has, I think, got into rather slippery places. After what was said by the hon. Baronet opposite I am afraid he will have some searchings of heart and will be questioning himself if he is not in danger of falling from grace. However that may be, I wish to say to my Friends below the Gangway who have been criticising so much that if the hon. Baronet's house was on fire we should not say, "Bring out the servant and question him," but we would at once help to put out the fire. What I want my hon. Friends below the Gangway to do is to stop all this fault-finding and criticising so much at this important time. In the words of a great leader of past days, which appear in Holy Writ,
It being Eleven of the clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Bill Presented
War Loan (Supplemental Provisions) Bill,—"to make provision, in connection with Loans raised for the purposes of the present War, for the establishment of a Post Office stock register and as to stock inscribed in that register, and to make certain amendments in connection with such Loans and generally in connection with War Finance, in the Law relating to Savings Banks, Friendly Societies, Trade Unions, and otherwise." Presented by Mr. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER; supported by Mr. Montagu; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 163.]
The Orders of the Day were read, and postponed.
Education (Small Population Grants)
Committee to consider of authorising the suspension in connection with the present War of the Grants payable under paragraph (2), of Section nineteen, of the Elementary Education Act, 1876, and the Education Code (1890) Act, 1890, and the provision out of moneys provided by Parliament of other Grants in lieu thereof—( King's Recommendation to be signified ) To-morrow.—[ Mr. Walter Rea. ]
Lord Derby's Recruiting Scheme
Industrial Needs
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
I wish to bring before the House the wide departure which is being made under Lord Derby's scheme from the basis and method laid down by the Prime Minister in his speech of 2nd November. In that speech the Prime Minister stated with clearness and definiteness that after certain necessary requirements in the country had been fulfilled, after munitions had been arranged for, after the trades vital to the country had been provided for, and after our great export trade had been arranged for, then and then only, out of the reservoir of men remaining, recruiting should commence. That was a basis so sound and wise, so fully comprehensive of all the facts and needs of the situation, that it was accepted by this House without comment. Indeed, if I may say so, it formed a sort of charter for those who, like myself, felt some anxiety lest the necessary commercial and financial needs of the country should be submerged amidst the energy and vigour of a recruiting campaign. I will not trouble the House with arguments to show that the basis so laid down by the Prime Minister has been departed from. In fact, that basis has been so entirely reversed and changed that no arguments about the matter are wanted at all. I may, perhaps, put it this way—that whereas the Prime Minister placed first and foremost the financial and commercial needs of the country and declared that after those were satisfied men should be recruited, Lord Derby's scheme proceeds to recruit every man and then proposes to dribble them out with grudging hand, through a chain of most unsatisfactory committees and tribunals, to those who may care to plead for their return to work. I maintain that this is so serious a departure that the attention of the House ought to be called to it. I would respectfully inquire of the representatives of the Government why the Prime Minister has not insisted that his plan and method should hold the field? This is not a light matter: it is an international question of supreme importance, and the country has, I think, a right to be assured that from the Prime Minister down to the humblest recruiting officer consideration shall be given as to how best we may regulate and co-relate the great capacities of which we are possessed. We have been told that we need three things—men, munitions, and money. The first two we may leave the provision of to Lord Derby and the Minister of Munitions, two of the most powerful hustlers that the country possess. I will say a word in regard to money, because in the state in which we find ourselves money means so much. It means the power to keep our people in decent comfort—which must necessarily be restricted and stinted —but in that comparative comfort that we all desire to see preserved. It means the paying of our rapidly accumulating bills. It means also, what is very important, the financing of many of our Allies in the great financial stress in which they find themselves. These stupendous obligations are growing every day. These things— industry and commerce—are the very wells of life.
We were told at the beginning of this War that we must try to carry on business as usual. This was always an impossible demand. Since the War broke out we have had to take for the purpose of the War at least 2,000,000 men from the active pursuit of industry. Already great difficulties are being felt by all who control great workshops. One finds that the raw material is very difficult to obtain, on account of the scarcity of labour and the difficulty of transport. Output is necessarily diminished. The finished articles you turn out can only be taken to the market with great delay, very often fatal to successful business. Very often your packing shops are depleted of their staffs, and it is very difficult to keep up even the restricted and modified amount of output. I cannot presume to say how many men the country ought to recruit for the purpose of this great War. I do not suggest anything on this matter, but I ask that the House and the country should receive an assurance that grave consideration should be given to the industrial and financial difficulties that confront us, before indiscriminate recruiting is allowed to proceed. We have three great forms of usefulness—our Fleet, our productive and financial power, and our Army. With regard to the first two, these capacities are habitual to us, and in the possession of them we are absolutely unchallenged. In our Fleet we have given to our Allies an instrument of supreme power and use. Innumerable in numbers, superior man for man, ship for ship, and gun for gun, the services of this great and costly Fleet are beyond calculation. Our supremacy in commerce and finance is just as unassailable, and its supremacy and all that it carries with it we have shared freely and readily, and shall continue so to share, with those who are allied with us in this great struggle. By the possession, and the continued possession, of this power in commerce and finance, we can clothe, we can feed, we can finance, we can maintain credit as no other nation can. As regards the Army, I will only say this: In raising this Army we have achieved a prodigy. The rush of millions of men to arms is a stupendous act in history, but I do venture to point out that in the capacity of our arms we have a capacity which is at least shared with us by our Allies as none of the other capacities I have named is or can be. Now I do hope—and this is my object in raising this matter to-night—that these matters are being weighed, and most carefully weighed. I regret—I am not entitled to complain—that we have not here tonight a representative of the great Department, the Board of Trade, to which we look as responsible. It is a matter for that Department quite as much as it is for the War Office, because in these matters there must be some conflict—friendly, I hope— maintained in that spirit between these two great Departments when considering the needs and necessities of the War. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, I know, is keen to see exports maintained. He must be keen to plead that the Loans which we have to issue shall be raised. He must also be anxious to know that the Income Tax—that great weapon to pay the great cost that we are incurring— shall come freely into the Exchequer. None of these things can be done if we unnecessarily sacrifice our great productive power and our financial stability.
I think the Government might really have done better in this matter. I think they might have really gone to those in authority in business and finance and have told them what they wanted, consulted them in these matters, and seen what could have been spared. Of course I am always arguing that the Prime Minister's plan meets with approval. They might have done that, but I think they mistrust the business people of this country, though, Heaven knows, they have a hard, heart-burning, and difficult task! Certainly they are worrying and embarrassing them unnecessarily. What does this recruiting campaign mean among other things? You profess to star men, but you are canvassing them the whole time. You profess to make reserved occupations, but you are sending your, recruiting officers; you are harassing these men. I speak of these things I know, and every Member of this House can give evidence of it every day. I am afraid that it is too late to ask for a reversal of the plan upon which recruiting has now been established, but I ask if the Under-Secretary for War cannot do something to make the way easier for us if we are to follow out this plan. I think the Committees require a great deal of revision and the tribunals a great deal of improvement. Let me start at the top. Lord Lansdowne's Committee is too small. It is the Committee in authority, but it is inadequately manned. It includes nobody who really has a thorough knowledge of questions of finance, commerce, or labour, and I ask that such representatives should be added to the Committee. Next I take the Advisory Committees. These Committees are appointed as Political Committees. I do not quarrel with the men in these offices, but there has come on these Committees a War Office representative who will dominate their deliberations and guide their procedure. I ask that in addition there should be a representative of the Board of Trade who shall also be able to represent the other side of the question.
I say in the case of great businesses that when the men are taken away who cannot be spared it will be a most difficult thing to bring these men back, man by man, coming through these general tribunals. The thing will be impossible. I urge that some arrangement should be made by which an inquiry should be held into the case of a great business, so that a full explanation can be given as to the power of that business to carry on its trade and then, if it is found that the men cannot be spared they should be starred en, bloc, and the man by man process should not be continued. These are very important matters. I am very sorry to keep the House so late. I would not have introduced this question had I not thought not only that it was very important, but that growing difficulties were -arising of which we had no conception. I hope I have not spoken with heat or temper, but I feel strongly. I feel that the matter ought to have been fully discussed and a full day given to it. But having put my case I thank the House for the attention it has given me, and I hope the Under-Secretary of War will be able to give me some of the information for which I have asked.
I am very sorry to intervene before the Under-Secretary for War replies, but I wish to enter my protest against something like seven hours to-day being occupied discussing a very narrow and personal issue, while this most momentous question upon which the ultimate success of this country in the War will largely depend has to be relegated to thirty minutes of the time of the House. I associate myself with my hon. Friend in the representations he has made. I in common with a great number of my colleagues am day after day beset with evidence of the serious disquietude of the business community of this country at the trend of the Government's movements in connection with this great recruiting campaign. In common with my hon. Friend, I accepted the Prime Minister's statement on 2nd November as to the lines upon which this recruiting movement would take place, and I personally have never disguised from myself that the contribution which we could make in the direction of a Continental Army was altogether out of proportion to the value of the contributions we might make by maintaining our financial and commercial stability, and by rendering great help by means of our Fleet. But as this movement has grown we have had day after day evidence that that declaration, or, as we thought, definition of procedure in the Prime Minister's speech of 2nd November has been quietly but deliberately reversed by the natural procedure of those responsible for the recruiting movement. I personally have given what help I could to the recruiting movement from the beginning of this War, but I have never lost sight of the fact that whatever contributions we might make in the form of placing upon the Continent a trained Army would not be commensurate with the value of the services we could render to our Allies by financing them and by giving them the protection of our Fleet.
My hon. Friend has referred to a matter which, I think, is of very great importance, and should receive greater attention from this House than is likely to be given to it under the pressure of events. When the local tribunals were appointed, some of use were amazed at the principles upon which they were formed. I have great faith in the efficiency of our municipal corporations and in their arrangements for the public service, but it is altogether expecting too much that a satisfactory tribunal adequately protecting the commercial and business interests of the community can be entrusted to the more or less haphazard and casual appointments which the mayor and corporation may make upon these local tribunals. No sooner were these local tribunals formed than the necessity for some further help in the way of advisory committees was seen, and the promise was held out to us that whatever deficiencies might result from the constitution of these particular local tribunals would be remedied by the appointment of advisory committees up and down the country. To-day we have had from Members of this House particulars of the character of these advisory committees, and I confess that I was astounded to discover that the initiation and responsibility for the appointment of these advisory committees was entrusted to a Parliamentary Recruiting Committee which has no statutory authority behind it and which, as I understand, was merely a temporary arrangement for the convenience of the recruiting movement. I would venture to suggest to the Government that it is altogether wrong to entrust to a casual body of this kind, which has done excellent work in the particular direction for which it was appointed, the responsibility of constituting these advisory committees, which, after all, must be largely chargeable with the duty of maintaining our commerce and our industry. I do hope that even at this time the Government will consider the advisability of reforming them. There is much I would like to say, but I close with a most emphatic protest that the only Parliamentary opportunity allowed to this House for discussing a matter of vital importance should be the thirty minutes allowed to us on the adjournment of the House.
I sympathise very much with my hon. Friends who have introduced this very important subject that they should only have half an hour in which to deal with it. But I am sure they will acquit me of responsibility for that. In anything I have to say I hope I shall not be misunderstood as disavowing or minimising the importance of the matter on which my hon. Friend has opened the discussion—namely, the commercial supremacy of this country. I am absolutely convinced of that, and I do not wish my hon. Friends to go away thinking I am not duly impressed with the great importance of it. I think one of the most remarkable and wonderful phenomena connected with this War has been how little dislocation of trade has occurred up till now in the conversion of a great, peaceable, peace-loving nation into a great military Power. That there has been so little dislocation—commensurate with the Army we have raised—is really most remarkable, and when history comes to be written they will say that the Army we have raised has been extraordinary, but the amount of commercial dislocation has been extraordinarily small. To disabuse the minds of some of my hon. Friends, I want to say one or two things. They, quite roundly, charge the Government with having departed from the Prime Minister's statement.
Hear, hear!
I really must disclaim that. I do not think it is true to say that Lord Derby has made a departure from the Prime Minister's promise. But I will make this admission, if they like, that while my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that after this, that and the other interest had been provided for, then recruiting should commence, the only difference that has been made by my Noble Friend Lord Derby is that there shall be prior attestation, and that, after attestation, industries shall be supplied as far as possible with the men necessary to carry on those industries. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Mr. Gordon. Harvey) said he thought it was a great pity that the Prime Minister's plan and method should not hold the field. I say that the Prime Minister's plan and method do hold the field and that all that my Noble Friend Lord Derby and we at the War Office are doing is to try and carry out that plan. So far from the Prime Minister's plan not holding the field, I am sure my hon. Friend will believe me when I say that if it did not I think we should hear of it from the Prime Minister himself. I feel quite satisfied that we should.
May I explain, in the one minute that is left to me, the whole point? In the event of a man thinking he ought not to serve his country in the capacity of a soldier, if he appeals, he appeals to the local tribunal. The local tribunal, as the House is aware, consists of people set up by the local authorities—the urban or rural district council or the town or city council, as the case may be, as the local government authority. The local authority is, commonly composed of gentlemen who are interested much more commercially than in a military sense, and therefore you could have no greater safeguard than that. I hope hon. Gentlemen will agree that that is so. Having appealed to the local tribunal, they report the case and refer it to the local War Office representative, a gentleman appointed in each district by the general officer commanding in the district, and an advisory committee settles what action shall be taken when the case is reheard by the local committee. They decide if the case is one for appeal to the final body—Lord Lansdowne's tribunal of appeal.
It being Half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Half after Eleven o'clock.