House of Commons
Wednesday, December 1, 1915
Vote of Credit
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 30th November; Mr. Montagu ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 392.]
West African Currency Board
Copy presented of Report of the West African Currency Board for the year ended 30th June, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907
Copies presented of Orders numbered D.I.P. 306 to 316, inclusive, declaring the respective areas described in the Schedules thereto to be infected with Wart Disease and infected areas for the purposes of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Diseases of Animals Acts
Copy presented of Order 9,600, postponing the operation of the two Orders described in the Schedule thereto until the 24th December, 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Health of Munition Workers' Committee
Copy presented of Report on Sunday Labour of the Committee appointed by the Minister of Munitions with the concurrence of the Home Secretary [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House: Copy of Rule, dated 18th November, 1915, made under the Act as to the application of amount allotted to Dependant in case of death [by Act].
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Shipbuilding (Dublin)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will consider the advisability of establishing a naval shipbuilding base on the River Liffey, Dublin, with a view of facilitating the more rapid replacement of naval losses in the present War and thus afford the Irish capital a share in the naval expenditure to enable it to bear its burden of war taxation?
The subject of my hon. Friend's question depends on various considerations, which I scarcely think it would be possible to discuss in an answer to a question. I may observe, however, that the Admiralty are already employing Irish shipbuilding firms to a considerable extent. Moreover, in addition to the expenditure on naval establishments in Ireland, I may point out that a very considerable number of orders are placed with Admiralty contractors. In this connection, I would draw my hon. Friend's attention to the terms of an answer which I gave to the hon. Member for St. Stephen's Green on 4th May, a copy of which I shall be happy to send him.
Wheat Shipments
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, having in view the scarcity of available British tonnage and the urgent requirements for transport of wheat from Australia and Argentina during the next four months, he will arrange that British steamers shall not be requisitioned or chartered by the Admiralty for carriage of nitrate of soda for agricultural purposes; and whether, in view of the fact that there are large supplies of nitrate and no prospect of scarcity, he will recommend that foreign vessels be chartered for shipment of the purchase of 50,000 tons recently made by the Board of Agriculture?
I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for the West Derby Division of Liverpool yesterday, in which I stated that the question of the carriage of this nitrate is under consideration.
Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty if he can see his way to amend paragraphs 3 and 8 of the White Paper on dependants' allowances and leave untouched the disablement benefit granted under the National Insurance Act?
We have given careful consideration to the representations made by my hon. Friend and other Members, and have come to the conclusion that the White Paper of 25th October should be modified in the direction he desires, that is to say, in the award of allowances from Navy and Army Funds to dependants of deceased sailors and soldiers other than widows and children. Disablement benefit under the National Health Insurance Act will not be reckoned in diminution in assessing the said allowances. A White Paper in substitution of that previously issued will immediately be laid.
I am much obliged.
Neutral Countries (False and Misleading Statements)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if the representatives of His Majesty's Government abroad are instructed to report to the Foreign Office grossly incorrect and damaging statements issued on behalf of our enemies; and, if not, will he consider the advisability of so instructing them, to ensure that a prompt denial is given to statements of this character which are now being issued more freely than ever in neutral countries?
Steps have been taken to ensure that His Majesty's Government are made aware, through British representatives abroad, of statements issued on behalf of the enemy in the Press of foreign countries; and denials are frequently given. But if my hon. Friend has any particular false statement in mind which has not been contradicted I should be very glad if he would inform me of it.
Has not my right hon. Friend got any staff engaged in studying the foreign Press with a view of correcting these misstatements?
Oh, yes.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received a cablegram from the British Chamber of Commerce of Buenos Ayres protesting against Press messages to the Argentine Press being passed by the Censor which convey an entirely false impression regarding the conditions and state of feeling in Britain; and whether the Government appreciate the value of maintaining British prestige in neutral countries and will take adequate steps to ensure the transmission of veracious news to such countries and to our Allies?
With regard to the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Pembroke on the 2nd ultimo. The reply to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.
Greece
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, on or about the 20th November, a statement was issued from the British Legation at Athens that a naval blockade of Greece had been instituted; and, if so, whether he can explain the connection of this statement with the dementi published on 23rd November by the Foreign Office?
A notification was issued by His Majesty's Legation, at Athens, on the 19th ult., which was misinterpreted in some quarters as implying that the Allied Governments were blockading Greek ports. There was no mention of blockage in the notification. In order to remove this misapprehension, the communiqué referred to in the last part of the hon. Member's question was published in London.
We may take it, then, that there was no change of policy and no real inconsistency between the two official statements?
I do not think that there was any inconsistency between the two statements.
May I ask whether there was any control over the issue of licences?
I should like notice of that question; it does not arise.
Officers on Leave from France (Travelling Facilities)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the present arrangement with regard to leave is that officers of all ranks who are on the staff are allowed to proceed on leave viâ Boulogne, and consequently get to this country after a journey not lasting more than about six hours, whereas even senior regimental officers have to make the journey viâ Havre, occupying twenty-eight hours, and whether he can take any steps to get these regulations altered so that officers of equal rank may have the same facilities, whether on the staff or engaged in regimental duties?
I would refer the hon. Gentleman to an answer I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for the St. Augustine's Division in answer to a question almost precisely identical.
Helmets
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any steel helmets or steel plates for the purposes of making helmets have been ordered in America?
The answer is in the negative.
Ordnance College, Woolwich (Instructors)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he will favourably consider giving the appointment of instructor to officers carrying out instructors' duties in the Ordnance College, Woolwich, in view of the fact that this is the only educational establishment in the Artillery where officers carrying out such duties have not received the appointment, seeing that the numbers under instruction is in a threefold ratio to that prior to the War, and the amount of instructional work falling upon the present officers, without appointment as instructors, is in a similar ratio?
I understand the question to refer to two officers who were recently granted commissions in recognition of their merit. The work they are doing is, I am informed, substantially the same as they were performing before they were granted commissioned rank. In the circumstances the pay of their rank, which they are receiving, is considered adequate.
It applies to the question of rank. I want to know why these men have not been put on the same equality as officers in other establishments?
I am told that it is really a question of fact. Do I understand that the object of the hon. Member really is to secure that these officers shall be paid the emoluments of Regular instructors? A Regular instructor possesses very high qualifications which these gentlemen lack. I do not think that it is possible to put them in the position of a Regular instructor such as passes through the course of instruction.
I will give the hon. Gentleman some information.
British Prisoners of War
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, with a view to enabling more adequate provision to be made for the needs of British prisoners of war in Germany during the winter, he can state the total number of British prisoners of war, stating the number belonging to the Army, Navy, and merchant service and other civilians separately?
I cannot state the number of British civilians interned in Germany. That would be a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. The total number of military prisoners is approximately 32,000, and of naval prisoners 1,050.
Aircraft Raids (Insurance)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, when both landlord and tenant unknown to one another each insure the same property against air-raid risks under the Government scheme, the Treasury refuse to return either of the two premiums paid on the same risk or to allow one premium to be allocated to another risk?
Where a building has been insured by two different parties ( e.g., landlord and tenant) the Aircraft Insurance Committee, not being in a position to determine which of the parties is responsible for the reinstatement of the building, have had to make it a rule to refuse applications for refund of premium.
Is it not a fact that in a case like this the Government are taking double premiums for one insurance?
It has to be left mainly to the discretion of the Aircraft Insurance Committee. I will make any representations the hon. Member likes, but that is the position they take up.
They do take two premiums for one insurance?
In these cases, yes. Two people pay, each thinking that he is responsible; and they have no means of ascertaining who is responsible.
If they can agree, will not the Government allow one or the other to withdraw and get his premium back.
I will ask the Committee that question.
Foreign Trade (Government Support)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the formation in the United States of a 50,000,000 dollar company to develop foreign trade with the United States; whether, in view of the fact that the greatest field for the new company is looked for in Russia, he has considered the sympathetic treatment of British groups with the same end in view; and, if such groups be formed, whether they can rely upon the maximum goodwill and support of the British Government?
I have seen statements in the Press with regard to the proposals to which the hon. Member refers. Any well-considered scheme for the development of trade between this country and Russia will, of course, be welcomed by His Majesty's Government.
Finance (No. 3) Bill
Excess Profits Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether, in view of the fact that under the Finance (No. 3) Bill it will be the duty of every person liable to pay Excess Profits Duty to give notice himself to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue before the 31st December next, he proposes to take any special steps to bring this obligation to the notice of those concerned?
I propose to introduce on Report an Amendment substituting 31st January, 1916, for 31st December, 1915. As in the case of the Super-tax, the obligation to give notice of liability to Excess Profits Duty will be announced in the "London Gazette," and a copy of the announcement sent to the principal newspapers.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will not do something in his own interest, in the interest of the State, to make this obliga-well known? The people who have had this obligation put upon them do not read Acts of Parliament.
I think that the sending of notices to the London and provincial Press will be sufficient after the Debates in this House. I hope so.
Anglo-French Loan
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Sir Ernest Cassel subscribed to the Anglo-French Loan in the United States, and, if so, whether the interest payable in respect of his holding will be liable to Income Tax?
Yes, Sir, and Sir Ernest Cassel did so with the knowledge and full approval of the Treasury. The application was made in respect of funds already in America and with the object of assisting the issue of the Loan. Sir Ernest Cassel will be liable to Income Tax in respect of his holding. I am obliged to my hon. Friend for giving me an opportunity of making this statement.
Is it not the fact that this question was put down as I had unwittingly done Sir Ernest Cassel an injustice?
My intention was to convey the impression that both my hon. Friend and I were glad of the opportunity of making this statement.
Excess Profits Tax (Grimsby Fishermen)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the number of Grimsby fishermen who have lost their lives by the explosion of mines and submarine attacks while pursuing their ordinary peaceful occupations; and if he will in their case waive the payment of Excess War Profits Tax, in consideration of their conduct in providing a valuable supply of food for the nation and risking their lives for their country?
If the fishermen to whom the hon. Member refers are employés, they are outside the scope of the tax. In any event, however, before Excess Profits Duty can become payable the profits earned in a year must exceed by more than £200 the pre-war standard of profits. I may say generally that if the estate of a deceased person includes an item which is assessable to Excess Profits Duty, there is no hardship in a beneficiary bearing the duty on his share.
Questions
Nitrate of Soda
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture the usual annual consumption of nitrate of soda as a fertiliser in the United Kingdom; and has the consumption increased materially during the last ten years?
The normal annual consumption of nitrate of soda in the United Kingdom is about 120,000 tons, of which it has been estimated that about two-thirds or rather more are used as a fertiliser. There is no evidence of any material increase in the consumption during the past ten years, but I hope that, in view of the appeals made to farmers to increase the production of the land, there will be a substantial increase in the quantity of all kinds of fertilisers required during the present farming year, if adequate supplies can be made available.
asked the average cost per quintal free on board of the nitrate of soda bought by the Board of Agriculture for fertiliser purposes; and is the present market price higher or lower than that average cost?
I am not able to give details as to the prices paid for supplies purchased for the Government until a proper report can be made to Parliament upon the conclusion of any scheme.
Munitions
Volunteer Workers (Reduced Fares)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the fact that many munition volunteers have been working for several months at long distances from their homes, he will arrange for tickets at reduced fares to be issued to such workers to enable them to visit their homes during the short holiday which will be granted at Christmas?
As my right hon. Friend has already stated in reply to a question on this subject, he does not think it would be fair to give special facilities to munition volunteers only. On the general question of facilities for munition workers, the Ministry of Munitions is in communication with the railway executive, and I will let my hon. Friend hear the result in due course.
Sunderland (Overtime Scales)
asked the Minister of Munitions, whether munition volunteers have been transferred from other centres to Sunderland and, notwithstanding the pledge that was given that they would be paid wages not less than those prevalent in the district from which they were transferred, receive lower rates for overtime in certain cases than were paid to them before they were transferred to Sunderland; whether some munition volunteers are required to work longer hours at time rates than they were accustomed to work in the districts from which they were transferred; and whether he proposes to take any action to fulfil in detail the promises given to men who volunteered for munition work?
A war munition volunteer transferred by discretion of the Ministry of Munitions is, in accordance with the terms set out on his enrolment form, entitled to the rate of the district to which he is transferred, provided that if in any case the man proves that this is less than the rate he was receiving before enrolment he shall be entitled to receive such higher rate. It is true that the number of hours forming the recognised week varies slightly in different districts, and consequently on transfer a man may sometimes have to work either longer or shorter hours as the case may be for the same weekly rate as he had hitherto been receiving. Extra payments for overtime are made at the rate of the district to which the men are transferred. This decision was come to after consultation with the National Labour Advisory Committee. My right hon. Friend has caused special inquiries to be made as regards the case of certain men transferred to Sunderland, and he is satisfied that these conditions are being observed in their cases.
Would it not be possible where the men have to work longer hours than they have been accustomed to to pay them at overtime rates for those additional hours?
My hon. Friend knows that this is a very difficult and intricate question, as conditions vary very much. The terms of payment are the result of a general agreement, arrived at by the Advisory Committee, and I think, on the whole, it is a good one.
Questions
Flour (Canadian Gift)
asked the President of the Board of Trade the particulars of the Canadian gift of flour sent to this country about twelve months ago, 50,000 bags being sent to Dublin; whom the flour was intended for; and if the wishes of the Canadian Government have been carried out in its distribution?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The hon. Member will find full particulars up to the end of last year on pages 33 and 34 of the Report on the Special Work of the Local Government Board arising out of the War, of which I am sending him a copy. The balance of the flour has since been distributed on similar lines.
Import Duties and Tariffs
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has information showing that Import Duties and tariffs have been dropped, relaxed, or moderated since the outbreak of the War by any of the following countries: Russia, Austria-Hungary, Germany, France, and Italy; and whether any reductions or relaxations of such duties have been in respect of food-stuffs, manufactured articles, or both, in the respective countries?
I am informed that in the cases of Germany and Austria-Hungary the import duties leviable on a very large number of food-stuffs and raw or semi-manufactured materials have been suspended or, in a few cases, reduced. In the case of France the duties on a number of similar commodities have been suspended, but in some cases they have since been re-imposed. Similar suspensions of the duties on various food-stuffs have been decreed in Italy. As regards Russia, the Customs Tariff was revised in March, 1915, the new rates being for the most part higher than those previously in force.
Is it not a fact that this country is the only country in the world which has not reduced tariffs, but on the other hand has increased them, during the period of the present war?
I am not aware what tariffs have been increased in these countries.
Cube Sugar
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the case of grocers who hold stocks of cube sugar for which they paid the full price and which they now have to sell to the customers at a lower price in consequence of the reduction of 1d. per pound; and whether he can make arrangements for a rebate of that amount to shopkeepers who purchased sugar from the Commissioners at the higher price?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to a similar question put by my hon. Friend the Member for West Bradford on the 22nd November, of which I am sending him a copy.
Tallow Exports to Holland
asked the President of the Board of Trade if there were exported from this country to Holland nearly 3,000 tons of tallow in six weeks ending 3rd November; whether that would produce 600 tons of nitro-glycerine; and whether he is satisfied that such tallow or the resulting glycerine does not reach Germany?
Exports of tallow of United Kingdom origin are not separately distinguished in the official statistics, but I understand that the re-exports to Holland of imported tallow amounted to 2,259 tons in the last two months. I believe the yield of nitro-glycerine from a given quantity of tallow may reach that indicated in the question. All animal fat exported to Holland is consigned to the Netherlands Oversea Trust, which guarantees that neither the fat nor any product derived therefrom will be exported to Germany.
Enemy Aliens.—(Case of Frederick Moss.)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why a German named Frederick Moss, lately fined at Braintree police court for a brutal assault upon a schoolboy, was not interned as an alien enemy at the beginning of the War; and whether he is still at large?
I would refer the Noble Lord to the answer I gave to the question by the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division on the 17th November. Arrangements are being made with a view to the man's removal from the area in which he at present resides.
Had he been interned then? I could not hear the right hon. Gentleman's answer.
I began by referring to an answer previously given to the hon. Member. I told him this man had been exempted from internment by the Advisory Committee, but that I was considering what should be done and arrangements were being made to remove him from the area.
Is the right horn. Gentleman aware that this man has started another residence in the town of Felstead which is on the direct line for Zeppelins from the East Coast to London? Will he take steps to have him removed?
I shall be much obliged if the hon. Gentleman will be kind enough to let me have any information in his possession. It certainly is a matter in which information of that sort should be thoroughly investigated.
Employment of School Children
asked the Home Secretary whether local authorities have asked him to sanction by-laws under the Employment of Children Act which provide that children whilst attending school may be employed for wages during the mid-day dinner hour; whether he will withhold his sanction from such a provision when proposed; and if in any case it has been granted will he withdraw or suspend it, seeing that local education authorities are shortening the mid-day interval in order to secure economy of light and fuel in the school?
The policy of the Department is to discourage the employment of school children in the interval between morning and afternoon school, but in certain districts and in certain classes of work, such as carrying meals or shop minding, local authorities with whom, as my hon. Friend is aware, the decision rests in the first instance, have not seen their way to prohibit it entirely. One such case is now under consideration, but until I know the result of the inquiries which are being made I cannot express any opinion with regard to it. The consideration mentioned in the last part of the question will be borne in mind. As regards by-laws which are already in force, the Secretary of State has no power to withdraw or suspend them, except on a proposal from the local authority.
Will my hon. Friend state whether the Home Office has recently given its sanction to by-laws which do permit the employment of children for wages in dinner hours?
My hon. Friend must be aware that if there are no by-laws the result of refusing to sanction the code submitted would be that the matter would be subject to no regulations at all.
Shorncliffe Camp (Tradesmen's Charges)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that on 13th November a garrison order, 1892, was issued in the Shorncliffe Command, headed Exorbitant Charges by Local Tradesmen, and that this order states that it had been brought to the notice of the general officer commanding the troops, General Steele, that the soldiers in his command were being charged exorbitant rates by local tradesmen; will he say what steps he proposes taking on behalf of His Majesty's Government to mark their disapproval of the action of these trades people and to put a stop to this overcharging of the Canadians, who have come overseas to fight for the Mother Country; and whether the officers and men who are and have been in the Shorncliffe Command have for months past complained about these charges?
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. I have made myself acquainted with the garrison order referred to by my hon. Friend. The object of the garrison order was to obtain specific cases of overcharging as a basis for any action that may be possible. I am aware that complaints of overcharging have been general. They are, however, difficult to prove, and I am informed that the local authorities maintain that they are without foundation. My hon. Friend may rest assured that every specific instance that may come to light will be carefully followed up with a view to stopping the practice of overcharging, if and so far as it exists, through the force of public opinion or by any other means that may be found to be practicable. The fact that the order has been issued should act as a deterrent.
Industrial Training for Women
asked the Home Secretary in what branches of industry local bodies are training women; and, approximately, how many trainings have been given in each industry in which such trainings are given?
I am unable to give particulars at present. Information is in process of being collected.
asked the Home Secretary whether in a recently-issued circular the various local bodies were warned not to train too many women lest the labour market should be glutted with a superfluity; if so, whether this is the considered view of his Department as to the successful prosecution of the War; and whether he intends the proposed restrictions to extend to all Departments, including agriculture?
The circular to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers related solely to the training of women clerks. I do not think he can have seen the passage in the circular, which I will read:—
"It is probable that the demand will for some time be more than sufficient to absorb the largest number of trained women that the local committee will be able to supply, but the committee will no doubt bear in mind the importance of not training for this class of work a greater number of women than is likely to be required. Further and heavy demands in connection with other occupations are bound to be made on the available reserves of women in the near future, and it is not of course desirable that the risk should be incurred of depressing wages below a fair rate by bringing into the market a greater number of workers than is needed."
As regards the general question of the temporary substitution of women for men and of their training, I may assure my hon. and gallant Friend that this matter is receiving the earnest attention of the Government. The demand for women substitutes is large and is fast increasing, and I should like to avail myself of this opportunity of suggesting to employers throughout the country that they should take instant steps to meet this growing demand.
Would the right hon. Gentleman say what control he has over private agencies in this respect?
I do not know that I have any control over private agencies. This is a circular that was addressed by the Board of Education and the Home Office to local authorities throughout the country.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the same circular reference is made to private agencies? That is the reason why I asked the question.
I must ask for notice of that question.
Post Office Employes (Enlistment)
asked the Assistant Postmaster-General whether there is any intention to change the conditions under which employés of the Post Office have enlisted in the Army, namely that their positions in the Post Office should be kept open until they return; and that while they are in the Army their pay as soldiers should be made up to their Post Office pay before enlistment?
There is no intention of changing the conditions In question, which apply only to the permanent staff of the Post Office.
Did any men who are not employed on the permanent staff of the Post Office enlist under an assurance that they would be protected by these conditions?
I believe there are two exceptions to this, so far as I remember.
If those two exceptions enlisted on the strength of a personal assurance from the Postmaster-General conveyed in a letter to them, will those conditions be observed in regard to them?
I should hardly like to answer that without reference to my right hon. Friend. At the same time, I expect they will be.
Naval and Military War Pensions Act
asked the Prime Minister what progress has been made in constituting the statutory body to be set up under the Naval and Military War Pensions Act?
The constitution of the Committee is being completed as rapidly as possible.
Board of Admiralty (Collec Tive Responsibility)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Order in Council of the 19th March, 1872, does not rescind the Order in Council of the 14th January, 1869, excepting in having re-established the Controller of the Navy and appointing a naval secretary; whether he is aware that both in the Order in Council of the 14th January, 1869, and the Order in Council of the 19th March, 1872, the collective responsibility of the Board of Admiralty was abolished and remains abolished; whether he is aware that the Order in Council of the 14th January, 1869, the Order in Council of the 19th March, 1872, and the Order in Council of August, 1904, all repeat the Clause which in 1869 deprived the Naval Lords of collective responsibility; whether the naval disasters in this War are attributable to the First Lord of the Admiralty being solely responsible to the King and Parliament and the Naval Lords only responsible to the First Lord; and whether His Majesty's Government will now rescind the Order in Council of the 14th January, 1869, and so prevent the recurrence of regrettable incidents in connection with naval administration?
It is scarcely possible within the limits of a question and answer to deal with all the points raised. Nor is there anything in the answer already given that appears to call for amendment. I can assure the Noble Lord that there is no intention of modifying during the War the constitution of the Admiralty as fixed by Letters Patent, Orders in Council, and long tradition.
Was the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee incorrect? He did take the whole of the responsibility for these disasters.
No, Sir. I hardly think that is an accurate representation of what my right hon. Friend said. However, I will look up his speech and refresh my memory.
House of Commons Refreshment Department
asked the hon. Member for West Essex, as representing the Kitchen Committee, whether a loss is still being made in his Department despite the subsidy of £2,000 a year given by the State to his Committee; and will he say why the charges are not raised to meet the cost of food supplied to Members, seeing the scale of charges are much lower than those prevailing outside the House?
It is hardly possible at the present stage of the Session to say whether a loss is being made in the trading of the Kitchen Department or not. A statement of the accounts and the Annual Report for 1915 will be laid upon the Table as early as possible in the New Year. The present scale of charges and the War Tax more than cover the cost of food supplied to Members and the maintenance of staff. If the outgoings for servants' wages, expenses, and laundry during 1915 do exceed the profits, and the "Allowance for Servants' Wages," it will be entirely caused by the abnormal conditions prevailing, and the greatly reduced revenue obtaining from the limited alcoholic expenditure of hon. Members now attending the House. The staff are being paid full weekly wages for the short sittings, and "full wages" (without board) during the Easter, Whitsun, and short adjournments; some are paid a retaining wage to enable their services to be permanently at our disposal. The amount paid in wages to our employés during 1914 were 29 per cent. on the turnover, as compared with the average 11 per cent. or 12 per cent. in outside establishments, which are always open.
Will the teetotalers, 183 of whom signed this petition, be surcharged with this deficit?
My hon. Friend's suggestion is a very interesting one. It will receive careful consideration. I am rather afraid that such a self-denying ordinance would make their hearts sink. As the hon. Member is aware, this petition has been signed by a great number of people who are, I am sure, like Potiphar's wife—[Laughter]—I beg pardon, I mean; Cæsar's wife—above suspicion. A great-number of them are total abstainers.
Has the price of alcoholic liquors been increased since the War?
Yes, Sir, I think we have increased everything up to the hilt as much as we can.
War Office (Finance Department)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if Mrs. Savile, a German by birth, who was removed from a prohibited area by the late Secretary of State for the Home Department, is now employed in the War Office; and, if so, whether he will explain why a German is employed in any capacity in the War Office?
I find that Mrs. Savile is employed in the branch of the Finance Department which deals with the distribution of the effects of deceased soldiers. This branch of the War Office is housed, as hon. Members probably know, in St. James's Park, in the building which is known as Park Buildings. This employment was given to Mrs. Savile after a thorough investigation of her family history, connections, and associations. My military advisers have good grounds for believing that this lady is thoroughly loyal to the country of her adoption.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not see that, without making any charge against this lady, it is undesirable, on general principles, that the sister of a German officer fighting against us should be employed in any capacity by our War Office?
What I also see is that the wife of a rector in the Church of England in this country, who has shown by many actions of hers that she is thoroughly loyal to the country of her adoption, is a person whom one can trust.
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the previous statement relating to this lady submitted to the Home Office for the police and other authorities in Yorkshire before she was removed from Lancashire?
I cannot say I have actually seen them, but I am aware of their contents, and I think a great mistake was made.
Does the right hon. Gentleman sit as a Court of Appeal for the Home Office?
My military advisers share my view.
Second Line Yeomanky Regiments
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it has been decided not to send the second line Yeomanry regiments abroad; and, if so, will he explain why they cannot be amalgamated with the third line with resultant economy?
No, Sir, no general decision in the sense of the first part of the question has been arrived at or contemplated. This being so, the second part of the question does not, I think, arise.
British Prisoners in Germany
asked the Prime Minister whether, when the French Government found that the Germans had stopped the tobacco of French prisoners, they stopped the tobacco of the German prisoners in France; whether this act resulted in tobacco again being allowed to French prisoners in Germany; whether he is aware that similar action was carried out by the French Government with regard to letters with satisfactory results; whether M. Duperrayat, the Minister Plenipotentiary for Foreign Affairs, upon hearing that the French prisoners in Germany were getting bad food, diminished the abundant supplies of food given to the German prisoners in France, again with satisfactory results; whether the Russian Government are now adopting M. Duperrayat's methods in order to secure better treatment of Russian prisoners in Germany; and whether British prisoners in Germany are the only prisoners whose Government do not take suitable action in order to relieve the hardships which British prisoners in Germany are suffering?
I have no information as to the matter referred to in the first part of the question beyond what has been stated in the Press. With regard to the last part of the question, it is not the fact that His Majesty's Government have not taken suitable action to improve the conditions of internment of British subjects in Germany. There is, on the contrary, a consensus of opinion that those conditions, though still far from satisfactory in some cases, are better than they were. If the Noble Lord will furnish me with particulars of any special hardship that he has in mind, I will immediately inquire into it.
Exchange of Military Unfit
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the French Government have acted according to the letter of The Hague Convention which allows the exchange of the military unfit irrespective of number; whether he is aware that 7,000 French prisoners have been sent back from Germany as against 2,000 German prisoners sent back from France; and whether the reason of this disproportion is that the French have more military unfit in Germany than the Germans have in France?
I have no information as to the matters referred to.
Building Contracts
asked the Prime Minister, if he is aware that builders who, owing to the War, are not able to command their usual resources in men, materials, and money, are being required in some instances by ground landlords to carry out large pre-war building lease contracts in the City of London and elsewhere for which at Common Law they are liable; that these contracts involve financing for large amounts at a time when such financing is against the public interest and the employment of able-bodied men who should be engaged in the service of the State; and, in view of the desire of the Government to protect all interests, will he consider the question of taking such steps as may be necessary, by legislation or otherwise, to enable such cases, whether few or many, to be referred to a tribunal empowered to grant relief by postponement or, as they may determine, in all cases of real hardship?
A case to which the hon. Member has called my attention is under the consideration of the Government, but I am not yet in a position to express any opinion as to the suggestion made in the latter part of the question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to receive and consider representations from the London Association of Master Builders, relating to instances all over the country?
16th (Irish) Division
asked the Prime Minister when the 16th (Irish) Division is likely to go to the front; and whether any change has been made in the command of the division and in its constitution?
Arrangements of the kind which the hon. and learned Gentleman desires are, I understand, in contemplation.
Recruiting
Lord Derby's Scheme
asked the Prime Minister if, as starring has been so incorrectly performed in certain districts and that the canvass will not be quite completed by 11th December, he will extend the time limit till the end of the year?
I am not in a position to make a statement.
Will my right hon. Friend see that the starred lists are gone through and corrected before the voluntary system is finally abandoned?
It is very dangerous to answer supplementary questions. All I can say is that I will take it into consideration.
asked the Prime Minister if, in case Parliament should be adjourned before the result of Lord Derby's recruiting scheme is announced, Parliament will be summoned as soon as that result is ascertained in order to consider forthwith the situation as affected thereby?
This is a hypothetical question. I can say no more than that if and when the occasion contemplated by the hon. Member arises it will be for the Government to take such steps as they may consider suitable.
Will the Government take the House into consultation before taking any steps?
As I have stated, it is a hypothetical question. When the occasion arises I hope I shall give satisfaction to the hon. Gentleman.
Questions
National Economy
asked the Prime Minister if it is the intention of the Government to encourage national economy by setting an example of economy in every direction in which economy may be possible without prejudice to the vigorous and successful prosecution of the War; and, if so, will he state what steps will be taken to set such an example of economy and when they will be taken?
I can only repeat that the Government are giving continuous and anxious consideration to this question, and there is no Department of the public service in which the promotion of economy has been overlooked or will for a moment be lost sight of.
Parliament and Registration
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government can see their way to divide the Parliament and Registration Bill into two Bills, as the subject matter of the two questions are of a different character?
It will be found that the proposals in the Government Bill are connected, and that, so far as it touches Registration it is limited (as its title shows) to suspending certain machinery.
asked the Prime Minister whether, looking to the fact that the Parliament and Registration Bill has been postponed twice by the Government for reasons not announced, he will reconsider his determination to introduce the Bill under the Ten Minutes' Rule?
The best method of introducing the Bill is under consideration.
Compulsory Service
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the members of the Post Office wireless staff have been required by the Admiralty to enlist in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve; whether the men who demurred were informed that refusal on their part meant confinement during the period of the War under the Defence of the Realm Act; and, if so, will he consider the advisability of introducing legislation imposing compulsory service on every man of military age and physically fit, instead of selecting individual classes and imposing compulsion on them while letting other men go free?
I understand that a scheme has been framed by the General Post Office and the Admiralty for enrolling in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve the wireless staff of the former department who are employed at stations engaged on Admiralty work. I believe that the General Post Office has received representations as to the details of the scheme made on behalf of the employés concerned, and these will be carefully considered. No statement such as that suggested has been authorised to be made to the men, and it hardly calls for contradiction.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say anything as to the last part of the question?
I will not say anything more about it than that I will consider it.
Lord Kitchener's Mission
asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to make a further statement as to the plans and mission of Lord Kitchener; and whether such statement will include a full report giving the House and the country all possible information which the military circumstances admit as to our position on the Gallipoli Peninsula and the Balkan situation generally.
Any suck statement as my hon. Friend contemplates, would be undesirable at the present time.
Mr. C. F. Masterman
asked the Prime Minister whether Mr. C. F. Masterman is in the employment of the Government; and, if so, what is his salary?
My hon. Friend is continuing certain work which he was requested by the Government to undertake at the beginning of the War. The work is of a highly confidential nature, and much of its efficiency depends upon its being conducted in secret, and it would not be in the public interest to make any further statements concerning it.
Will Mr. Master-man's salary be paid out of any Vote laid before the House, and what is the amount?
I do not know what the amount is.
I know.
I do not know what the amount is. Mr. Masterman is not in the Civil Service, but is employed specially for a temporary purpose. Whatever remuneration he receives, the hon. Member may be assured it will not be more than is adequate for the duties he has to perform.
Is it a fact that Mr. Masterman is paid a salary at the public expense?
Undoubtedly he will be.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House an opportunity of discussing this gentleman's qualifications for the post he occupies?
I do not think it would be desirable to do that. Mr. Masterman was selected for this particular post after a full review of his qualifications. I believe he is adequately competent to discharge his duties.
Is there any Cabinet Minister who does know what the salary is, so that we may put our questions to him?
No, I think questions had better continue to be addressed to me.
I beg to give notice that I will put a question asking the right hon. Gentleman what the salary of Mr. Master-man will be.
I beg to give notice that I will call attention to the matter at an early date.
Conduct of the War (Newspaper Criticism)
Whip Issued to Members
I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether the joint issue of whips is to be understood as now abandoned, and, if not, what was the reason for sending a whip in regard to last night's Debate to the members of certain political parties in this House only, to the exclusion of others?
I know nothing about this matter, except from inquiries which I have made from my hon. Friend the Chief Whip (Mr. Gulland). I think that the explanation he has given to me, and which he is quite prepared to give to the House, is satisfactory. There appears to have been some fear that, partly owing to the fact that the nature of the business on the list of Orders was not of a very appetising character, and to other distractions, members might not attend here in sufficient numbers. Accordingly, it was suggested that a reminder should be sent in regard to the statement the Home Secretary proposed to make. There was no intention whatever to confine that to one party. By a mere act of inadvertence it did not reach my Noble Friend (Lord E. Talbot), who, jointly with my hon. Friend, holds the office of Chief Whip. The notion that there was any idea of inviting a certain section, or one or more sections of the House, rather than others to be present at the Debate is, I can assure the hon. Member, entirely unfounded. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I say entirely unfounded. I hope my assurance will be accepted. It was a pure inadvertence and mistake.
May I be allowed to supplement what the Prime Minister has just said as to the fact that the Whip was not sent out? Quite inadvertently I did not communicate with my Noble Friend the Member for Chichester (Lord E. Talbot). It was due entirely to inadvertence, and I have expressed my deep regret to my colleague the Noble Lord on that account.
When the right hon. Gentleman discovered that a mistake had been made, would it not have been better to give some notice to us on the other side, so that some of us might have known?
( was understood to say ): It was too late.
Is it not a fact that notice of this coming event was in the newspapers. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]
National Insurance Act
Certification in Ireland
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, if he will state the present position of affairs in regard to the new scheme of certification under the National Insurance Act in Ireland; if the proposal to appoint part-time Referees has been suspended until after the termination of the War; and if care will be taken to ensure that all appointments under the scheme will be decided solely on grounds of merit and experience?
The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative; I will send the hon. Member a copy of a memorandum on the subject issued by the Irish Insurance Commissioners. I understand that a conference to consider the position in the light of the revised proposals was held yesterday. I need not say that I am entirely in agreement with the principle enunciated in the last part of the question.
Will the hon. Gentleman see that the draft proposal in the latter part of the scheme are acceded to?
I will do my best.
When are the Government going to appoint the Referees?
They are not going to be appointed at the present moment— not until the end of the War.
Mr. D. J. Shackleton
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, if Mr. D. J. Shackleton, of the Insurance Commission (England), is now in this country; if not, who is discharging his duties at this crisis; and whether it has been found that the help of a direct representative of the trades union approved societies is required in the working of the National Insurance Act?
At the request of the Ministry of Munitions, Mr. Shackleton is temporarily giving part of his time to the assistance of that Department. This arrangement does not involve the loss of his services as an Insurance Commissioner. The hon. Member is under a misapprehension if, as I assume, the last part of the question is intended to describe Mr. Shackleton's position. Mr. Shackleton was a Civil servant holding the post of Labour Adviser to the Home Office at the time of his appointment as an Insurance Commissioner, and his special knowledge of industrial conditions has proved of the highest value to my Department.
Is my hon. Friend not aware that a promise was given to the trade union representatives in this House that there should be a spokesman for their organisation upon the Commission, and if Mr. Shackleton is not there in that capacity, who is in that capacity?
I am not aware of any such promise having been given, or that Mr. Shackleton was appointed for that special purpose or with any understanding of that kind.
Will my hon. Friend look up the Debates in this House and verify it?
If that understanding exists, or if any promise has been given, I shall be very glad if my hon. Friend will draw my attention to it. I have not seen it at present.
Questions
Small Elementary Schools
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, if the schools in the rural districts of England were staffed with the same number of children to each teacher as are the elementary schools in the London area there would be a redundancy of 12,000 teachers; whether a policy of concentrating small schools and uniting them has been considered as a possible way of effecting economies both in teachers' labours and in money; and, if not, whether there will be any attempt made to initiate economies and improvements by treating small schools, and especially those in rural areas, by the methods suggested?
The statement contained in the first part of the question appears to be approximately correct mathematically, but of course small schools require a larger number of teachers in proportion to the number of children than large schools. With regard to the latter part of the question, the possibility of concentrating small schools is under consideration, but the difficulties involved are considerable and my right hon. Friend is not at present in a position to make any statement on the subject.
Deportation of American Citizen
asked the Home Secretary whether Mr. Tod Sloan, an American citizen, has been deported; and, if so, whether the reasons for this action can be stated?
This man has been deported, and before making the deportation order I satisfied myself that it was not-desirable in the public interest at the present time that he should remain in the United Kingdom.
As a matter of fact, could not a criminal charge have been brought against him, and, if so, ought he not to be tried in the usual and ordinary way?
I can assure my hon. Friend that the reasons for deporting him are good reasons, and as he is an American citizen I do not see why we should be compelled to keep him in this country.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that in those cases where persons of eminence are deported it is generally assumed that it is to shield some other person behind them?
I can assure my hon. Friend that in this case, whatever be the eminence of this person, it was not on that ground that he was deported rather than being dealt with in any other way.
Suppression of "The Rainbow."
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can now say why proceedings were taken for the suppression of a book entitled "The Rainbow," by D. H. Laurence, without any notice being given to the author of the book, who had a direct pecuniary interest in the matter, being entitled to a royalty of 25 per cent. on each copy sold, and whose prospects and reputation were gravely affected by these proceedings; whether he is aware that no direct evidence was given by the prosecution in support of the charge, but that the counsel employed by the police, who was the only counsel present, confined himself to reading the unfavourable comments of two journalists, who were not called to give evidence, and had not apparently read the book; and whether he will see that no further proceedings of this kind are taken by the police in respect of any work produced by an author of good standing and reputation, except after due notice being given to him, so that he may have at least as good an opportunity as any other accused man of replying to the charges made against him?
I have already explained to my hon. Friend that these proceedings were taken by the police in pursuance of their ordinary duty; the decision was a judicial decision arrived at by the chief magistrate, and was concurred in by the producers of the book. The Statute requires notice to be served on the occupier of the house where the books which had been seized were found. They are not required to serve any notice on the author, and they would not have any knowledge whether he had or had not an interest in the sale of the book or where he was to be found. The magistrate had before him the most direct evidence possible, namely, the book itself; and I am informed that it is not correct to say that his decision was arrived at without the book or the material passages therein being read. The police must, of course, continue to observe the requirements of the Statute; but if an author who has a pecuniary interest in the sale of a book thinks it necessary to do so, I imagine he could stipulate that his publisher should give him notice of proceedings such as these, and the magistrate would then determine whether he could not be heard.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not see that a grave injustice has been done to this man, seeing that he has had no opportunity of defending his book against the charges brought against it?
I cannot say that I see that; but however it may be, the provisions of the law were strictly complied with, and I feel quite certain that the magistrate would not act in a way which was contrary to the dictates of justice.
Is it not monstrous that a man should have this charge levelled against him and have no opportunity of defending himself whatsoever?
The only copies that were seized were copies found in a particular house. I imagine it will be possible, if the author thinks he has been wrongly treated, for another copy to be seized by arrangement, in order that he might defend the book.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Laurence had no knowledge of these proceedings until they were concluded?
No, I know nothing about it.
Were these proceedings taken under the Defence of the Realm Act? Is there any opportunity for the public to know what was suppressed, in order that they may avoid getting into the meshes of the law?
These proceedings were not taken under the Defence of the Realm Act. They were taken under a Statute which was passed, I think, about 1860.
Could these proceedings be taken against a classical author who may not be living? Would it be competent, on the decision of a police magistrate, to confiscate the works of Shakespeare, Rabelais, Swift, and others?
I think the hon. Member had better give notice of that question.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
May I ask the Prime Minister what business he proposes to take to-day, and what business is to be taken to-morrow?
To-day we shall take the Second Reading of the Increase of Rent Bill, the Report of the Money Resolution, Government War Obligations Bill, and the Committee stage of the Midwives (Scotland) Bill.
To-morrow we shall take the Committee stage of the Indictments Bill, the Evidence (Amendment) Bill, and the Money Resolution as to the Education (Small Population Grants) Bill.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Parliament and Registration Bill will be taken?
I hope next week.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Bill to amend the Munitions Act will be introduced?
Next week.
Will the House meet on Monday?
Yes.
Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
This Bill, which was introduced a few days ago by the President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Long), and a copy of which is now in our hands, calls for further comment. Before I pass to the main purport of my observations I should like to refer to Clause 2, Sub-section (3), which stipulates that the mortgagees or lenders who have mortgages upon property will be prevented from calling in their mortgages. I believe that point will be developed by other speakers, and I do not propose to say much upon it; but I do think that the fact that the Government is interfering with a contract entered into deserves some consideration, because of the effect it may have upon the lender. By preventing a lender from calling in his money you may embarrass him and make a very serious position for him. While welcoming the Bill and congratulating the right hon. Gentleman upon it generally, I would ask whether some provision might not be made whereby advances might be made, say, by the Treasury or the Bank of England, to the mortgagee should he desire it during the continuance of this Bill.
The particular point to which I wish to draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman has reference to the question of future contracts. When I referred to the matter on the previous occasion the light hon. Gentleman was kind enough to reply by stating that the Bill would affect future contracts. Hon. Members will agree that the whole drift of the Bill has, and the whole agitation in reference to the raising of rents and of mortgage rates had, reference to existing contracts, and very properly so. All are agreed that the Bill, though it cannot be defended as a sound logical measure, is yet an emergency measure which has been rendered necessary in the circumstances in which we find ourselves. Many of these workers dwell in munitions areas, and it is absolutely necessary to prevent their rents being increased during this time of emergency, and also that justice should be done to the mortgagor by preventing the mortgagee from increasing the rate of interest on the mortgage. The particular Clause to which the right hon. Gentleman referred in his reply to my query was the beginning of Clause 2, which refers to increases over the standard rent or rate made since the commencement of the War or made hereafter during the continuance of this Act, and it is clear from what can be read into these words that this Bill does apply, as the right hon. Gentleman has stated, to future business.
I wish to ask him to reconsider that particular point of view, with reference to future contracts, entered into, say, after the passing of this Act. While this Act, of course, refers to past business, I think that the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that if you wish persons to continue to lend, and do not wish to stop absolutely all building operations, you must surely give the prospective lender in the future some security, if you wish to encourage bankers or insurance companies to lend for future operations. The particular Constituency which I have the honour to represent is suffering at present from a famine in houses. The people are engaged there working day and night in the making of munitions, and there is this great want of houses. But if you prevent prospective lenders from either calling in their money or foreclosing, I do not say that you will stop building altogether, but you will simply force the lender to regard the money lent as locked-up capital and to ask for a very high rate of interest—say, from 7 to 10 per cent.—if he can get it. If he can get at present nearly 5 per cent. in a British Government security he will not be tempted to put any capital into what is almost, I might say, a non-existing security.
I ask the right hon. Gentleman to bear this in mind, because while the House is unanimous in supporting him in dealing with the present evil, I am sure also that he is not anxious to stop nearly all building enterprise, by choking off prospective lenders in future. If those who do lend are forced to charge the very high rates to which I have referred, then the House will readily follow that this will necessarily lead to very high rents, because if the mortgagor has to pay a very high rate for the money which he borrows for building operations, he has to get it back by increased rents from the prospective tenants. I trust that I have said sufficient to press this point of view upon the right hon. Gentleman, who, I know, is anxious to do everything to bring about efficiency and to bring about a state of affairs which, while preventing undue increase in existing rents, will not do anything to prevent future enterprise.
I presume that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill proposes to end the Debate, because I wish very much to know what is the attitude of the Government with regard to certain questions which we have brought forward. The right hon. Gentleman heard us at very short length on the day on which their Bill was introduced. We did not detain the House at any length because we did not wish to do so, but as the matter is one of considerable importance I wish to take the first opportunity of bringing it before the Government. What we want to know, first, is whether the Government propose to remove the population limit in Ireland altogether? With the present limit of 25,000 the Bill would be of little use in Ireland. It is only in Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Limerick, and one or two other places that the population exceeds 25,000. Most of the towns in Ireland are practically what you call in England villages, small places with a. population of from 1,000 to 3,000. What we suggest therefore, and my hon. Friends behind me will support me in this, is that the population limit should be abolished altogether in Ireland. The operation of this Bill in Ireland rests with the Irish Government, I presume the Chief Secretary or the Lord Lieutenant, and they are empowered to put this Bill into operation by Proclamation. Therefore we have every guarantee that this Bill will not be put into operation except where in the view of the Government it ought to be put into operation Therefore, I think that the right hon. Gentleman need have no hesitation in agreeing to our request that the population limit should be abolished altogether.
It is not so much a question of munitions areas. There are some munitions areas in Ireland and there are places which may become munitions areas, but this question of increase of house rent in war time in Ireland is a very serious one which would not be at all approved of by public opinion in Ireland. A time like this is not a time for increasing rents, especially in a country such as ours where we have not that large war expenditure which this country has and where the people of the labouring classes are not in a position to pay as high rents for their houses as in this country Therefore we make the point that the population limit should be abolished altogether in Ireland. But we go further and say, that inasmuch as our housing arrangements for the working classes in Ireland on the whole are extremely unsatisfactory, and inasmuch as the War and the consequent increase in the rates for money have put a stop to building operations all over the country, because where urban councils and district councils have had schemes in hand for providing houses for the working classes, all these schemes have been knocked on the head, therefore there is a dearth of housing accommodation in the country, and there is therefore a very strong reason why the rents should not be increased on such housing accommodation as we have at present. Therefore I again strongly urge on the Government the desirability of abolishing this populations limit in Ireland altogether.
Another point raised on the First Reading is the position of the mortgagees. The case sought to be made out on the part of persons who lend money for the purpose of building houses is that if the returns to the builders are largely increased, there is no reason why the mortgagees should not get increased interest. I doubt very much whether the builders' returns have so largely increased as is supposed; at any rate, I submit that so long as the mortgagee is paid his interest regularly he has no right to foreclose, and so compel the person who borrowed to find money in other ways. We all know that the financial situation is difficult in every branch of industrial and commercial operations, and this is not a time when mortgagees should foreclose, more especially on house property in towns, which it is extremely difficult always to realise. There are many examples in Ireland, where the right under the law to foreclose has been put in operation, of immense hardship, and many properties have had to be sold far below their ordinary value in time of peace. There is no reason why this Bill should be the means of giving facilities for things being done by mortgagees which ought to be avoided if possible. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will put down Amendments to the Bill in order to meet the points I have raised, but, if not, the Irish Members will take care to do so, and their voice will be heard in the matter.
I would suggest, in support of the hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House, that by making the Bill universal in its application a great deal of departmental work would be saved; at any rate, I do not see that the system contained in the Bill would be very effective, or effective in every instance, for remedying the disease which the Bill is projected to deal with. I would, therefore, very respectfully submit to the right hon. Gentleman that it is desirable that the Bill should be universal in its application. As regards the point which was raised in reference to new loans, I think that the Bill ought to make it clear that any new business entered into will not be affected, so far as this measure is concerned; otherwise the building of new houses will be hampered, and I do not think that any of us desire to curtail building operations. I would also very respectfully suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that in a great many districts in London the limit of rent contained in the Bill is too low; it ought at least to be increased to £50, although I would rather there should be no limit of rent at all. Take the instance of Civil servants who have had no increase in their salaries, and who are in as bad a position as the working classes if their rent is increased. As I said, I think it would be very much better if there were no rent limit at all, but if the right hon. Gentleman intends to stand by the rent limit, then it ought to be increased. We know that in a great many suburbs where houses are very difficult to obtain one workman takes the whole of a house, letting half of it, so that really the tenants are only paying a rental of £25 each; but, as one individual is responsible for the rent, he would be ruined as a consequence of this rent limit unless the right hon. Gentleman would put in a saving Clause. But to my mind the best saving Clause is the abolition of the limit.
If you get outside London and into the provinces it appears to me that there, again, the limit of £21 would rule out people with large families. I know myself several instances of people with houses of six or seven rooms who are paying rather more than £21. Their sons are serving their country at the front, and the parents are very anxious to keep the same kind of home for them when they come back that they left. I think it desirable that protection should be given, and it would be given if my suggestion for the abolition of the rent limit were agreed to; at any rate, if the limit were increased to £25, something substantial would be done in that direction. Again I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the desirability of making the Bill last for one year after the termination of the War. It would then run concurrently with the Munitions Act—twelve months after the War. Then there is another point I desire to place before the right hon. Gentleman. In some districts, where the agitation for this Rent Bill has been raised, the ire of estate agents and landlords has been aroused, and they have proceeded by way of ejectment notices against those who are taking a prominent part in the agitation. I think some protection should be given to these individuals against the anger or spite of those estate agents or landlords, and, in addition, others who may not have had such notices, but may be in danger of getting them, ought to receive some protection. Probably that protection might take the form that so long as they paid their rent, did not create any disorder, or commit any other legal offence, they should receive protection against ejectment. I hope that these points will receive not only the careful but the sympathetic attention of the right hon. Gentleman.
4.0 P.M.
I wish to support the Bill. The whole of my inquiries have led me to the same conclusion as that reached by the President of the Local Government Board, who said that there is no general increase throughout the country of the rents of small houses. There is undoubtedly in some districts a very considerable increase in munition areas where there have been large numbers of workpeople for the first time brought to those localities. In other districts also which are not munition areas some individual owners of property have taken advantage of the opportunity to increase their rents in a very extortionate manner, but those are few in number relatively to the general body of property owners. I think it is most desirable to prevent this body of extortionate owners of property from exercising their rapacity any further, in order that the general body of property owners may not be involved in common disgrace with them. I believe that the hardship that is felt by those who have had their rents increased in the country is keener because of the fact that they are isolated cases and by the realisation that "this landlord has not increased the rent, but that my landlord has increased mine," and that that gives still greater dissatisfaction with the proceeding. I am very glad to support this Bill, so that this increasing of rents in munition areas, and increases by extortionate landlords in other directions, may be prevented. But I am afraid my experience is not quite the same as that of the President of the" Local Government Board with respect to the increases in mortgages. I think that is very much more widespread than increases in rent. It can be done with less publicity; it can be done through a solicitor without the name of the mortgagee appearing, and to my certain knowledge very serious hardship has already been inflicted in various parts of the country by the indecent haste with which mortgagees have proceeded to raise the mortgage interest.
Therefore I think that this particular part of this Bill is one that is most urgently needed. May I remind the House that owners of small house property are not wealthy people? Rich men are not foolish enough to invest their money in small house property. Weekly houses are owned by comparatively poor people, and a great proportion of those houses are mortgaged properties. Men invest a small amount of their savings and borrow the rest on mortgage, and they are dependent for their income upon the surplus of the rent over mortgage interest and other output. Thus increases in mortgage interest are a very severe hardship upon the comparatively poor people who own this mortgaged property, while the threat of calling in the money and foreclosure means the probability of the sacrifice of their hard-earned savings. I am very glad, therefore, that this Bill provides, not only that mortgage interest shall not be increased, but that foreclosure shall not take place also. I believe myself, from the standpoint of the owner of small house property, that it is a good bargain for him to be deprived of the opportunity of increasing the rent in return for protection against any increase of mortgage interest. I believe if property owners were consulted, and if the facts of the case were put before them, that they would realise that this measure is really to their advantage. From the standpoint of owner of property I certainly support this Bill. Perhaps the House may be surprised to hear me say that I also support this Bill from the standpoint of the mortgagee. There is a great deal of nonsense talked, of sympathetic nonsense talked, about the mortgagee in this connection. It is said what a hardship it is that the mortgagee cannot increase his interest on his mortgage, and that if he had the money at his disposal he could invest it in some other security or put it into the War Loan, which is paying much higher interest. Yes, but suppose he had invested his money in some gilt-edged security, and that he wanted to realise that and put it into the War Loan, what sacrifice would he have to make in order to obtain his money to so invest it?
He could sell it.
Perhaps the hon. Baronet will make his observations when I have finished. I prefer to make mine without a running comment. The owners of gilt-edged securities cannot increase the rate of interest paid before the War. If a man has put money in a gilt-edged security before the commencement of the War he cannot calmly request the Government to increase the rate of interest, or he cannot go to a railway company, for instance, and say, "Will you increase my rate of interest on my gilt-edged security because the War is on and the price of money is dearer?" No, he has to accept and to continue to take during the War the lower rate that he received prior to the War. And, as I previously remarked, if he wants to get a higher rate for his money he must sacrifice a portion of his principle so that he may secure a larger return. In point of fact, the mortgagee, the man who has invested his money n mortgage on good freehold property in this country, will suffer far less by the War than any other investor of any description whatsoever, because he will receive during the War a higher rate of interest, since the pre-war rate of interest on mortgages was higher than on gilt-edged securities, and at the end of the War he will have his capital intact. If people would only examine the advantage of investment in mortgages they would realise they can get a better and safer return on mortgages than on any other gilt-edged security.
There is only one danger to which the mortgagee is exposed during the War, and that is that if there is any disposition on a large scale to put property on the market when there is no demand on the part of purchasers, and when there is no money available for such purchases, then a glut of the market will lead to the depreciation in value of all property and to the depreciation of it as security for money that has been lent. What I most fear, looking at the matter from the mortgagee's standpoint under present War conditions, unless there is some such protection as this Bill gives, is that thoughtless and selfish people will call in their mortgages and foreclose, and that that will lead to a glut of property on the market for sale for which there will be no purchasers, which will lead to a general decline in the value of property, and to the depreciation of all mortgage securities whatsoever. I think those who have invested their money on mortgage ought to be very thankful to the President of the Local Government Board for bringing in a Bill that will prevent foolish and thoughtless people, or selfish people, from taking that step, and so leading to a decline in the general value of mortgages. I think this Bill is an advantage to the property owner, and I think it is an advantage to the mortgagee as well. I need not enlarge on that. It is obviously a most unjustifiable thing, at a time when our other expenses are so much heavier, to insist upon a higher rental on property. The burden falls not only upon those who are benefited by increased wages, but it falls equally upon those who are actually deriving no benefit or whose wages it may be have been diminished by the War. From the tenant's standpoint this is a good measure, and also from the owner's standpoint, and from that of the mortgagee.
There is one serious defect in this Bill, and that is the clumsy scheme of Orders in Council. I do not think that can be defended for a single moment if one takes a broad, practical view of the situation in the country at large. Because I happen to have invested money in property that is in a munition area I am not to be allowed to increase the rate of interest or call a. mortgage in, but my friend, perhaps an hon. Member who sits next to me, has invested his money in property that is not in a munition area, and he may proceed to increase the rate of interest on his mortgage or call the money in. In other words, he may take steps to depreciate the general value of property in the country to my disadvantage and to his own advantage. Why should a man who lives in, say, one part of the city of Sheffield, inside the borough boundary, who has a certain kind of house and is a munition worker, be allowed to continue to-occupy that house at the same rent as he had previously paid, while another man, who perhaps works in the same munition factory, but lives outside the boundary in a rural area, may have his rent increased by a shilling per week? I do not think, from the tenant's standpoint, that this curious artificial distinction is justified. I do not think it can be justified from the property owner's standpoint, and I am sure it cannot be justified in the general interest of the mortgagee. I think it is much better to take a broad, comprehensive view of the matter and to say that during the War, as far as property of the rental value mentioned in this Bill is concerned, that throughout the length and breadth of these Islands there can be no increase either in rent or mortgage interests, and no calling in of mortgages. I support my hon. Friend (Mr. Hodge), who spoke on behalf of the Labour party, in this matter. I support the Bill, of course, from the tenant's standpoint; but for the moment I am basing my arguments chiefly on the standpoint of the interest of owners of property and of the interest of mortgagees. I am leaving it to my Friends who happen to live in districts where the increase of rent is felt to emphasise the standpoint of the tenant.
I am anxious during the War to conserve the interests of property and of financing property. My reason is this: that I do not want to accentuate the great difficulty in which the housing problem was even before the commencement of the War. I should be out of order now in entering into details respecting the housing problem generally, but I hope I shall be in order in just reminding the House that there was a grave problem of housing even before the outbreak of the War, and that rents were on the increase even before the outbreak of war. They were on the increase before the War because there was a shortage of building and because there have been difficulty in finding finance for the purpose of building, and because there was a disposition on the part of those who had previously invested to discontinue to do so. All these reasons created a very grave housing problem before the War. I do not want during the War to unnecessarily aggravate or intensify that problem. I want to do all that I possibly can during the War to prevent anything increasing those difficulties. The reasons for the shortage of housing I need not enter into now, but I may just point out one fact, and that is that during the six years that preceded the outbreak of war the average shortage in the building of houses occupied by the working classes was 80,000 per annum. I do not know whether increased rents, or closing orders, or Lumsden judgments or other judgments were responsible, but it is the fact that we had a very grave and serious outlook in the housing world. I hope the President of the Local Government Board will accept the suggestions that have been made to him and that he will extend the provisions of this Bill throughout the whole of the country. By doing so he will do good service to the tenants, and particularly to working men who are liable to be penalised by extortionate owners, and who will realise that he has conferred considerable benefit on them. I am quite satisfied, even if it is not fully recognised now, that it will be recognised later on that he has also conferred a real benefit on owners of house property, and that he has done something to protect the interest of mortgagees as well as of workmen.
Seeing that I am interested in a large amount of property which will come within the scope of this Bill, I should like to say a word or two in reference to its provisions. I shall do so with the utmost impartiality, because I honestly say I have not raised the rent of a single house in which I am interested since the outbreak of the War. I am certain that my right hon. Friend in charge of this Bill will believe that any criticisms I make are offered in a most friendly spirit. The first thing that strikes me in looking at the provisions of the Bill is that it is, to say the least of it, a little hard that the owner of these small houses is the only person in the whole of the country who is not allowed to increase the price which he charges for the commodity he has to dispose of The price of building materials, wages, rates and taxes, the prices of the necessaries of life, and the price of other everyday commodities—all these have been considerably increased, but the landlord is not to be allowed to make any increase whatsoever in the price that he charges for his houses. There is not a single Member of this House who would not deprecate any excessive raising of rents during the War. But my right hon. Friend, in introducing this Bill, said that there had been no general increase of an excessive kind, that it was not in any way widespread, that it was the exception and not the rule. I have always understood that the proper way to legislate was to legislate for what was the rule, and not for what was the exception I should have thought myself that the force of public opinion brought to bear upon any landlord who excessively or unduly raised his rents would be quite sufficient to cause him to alter his decision. I believe that in any district where that was excessively done, the landlord who did it would have his windows broken, and it would be brought home to him in many other ways that his course of action was not approved of.
It seems to me that in considering this Bill, it is very necessary to bear in mind what these weekly rents include. The tenant of a weekly house, unlike the tenant of a larger house, does not have to pay anything except the rent. He does not have to pay rates, repairs, or Inhabited House Duty. In fact the landlord has to pay all these charges, and in addition management expenses, and fire insurance, and provide a sinking fund, for houses of this kind are what are described as a wasting asset. In addition to all this, in a majority of cases—because many of these houses are owned by comparatively small men—the landlord has to pay ground rent and mortgage interest. When he has paid all these items, in many cases he has very little left for himself. It must also be borne in mind that even before the War the cost of building, maintenance, and repairs had gone up by something like 30 per cent. or more, and it has gone up still more since the War broke out. Not only so, but in most cases rates also have gone up. My right hon. Friend, when introducing the Bill, said that he did not think the tendency would be for rates to go up still further during the War. That is not borne out by the facts. In Birmingham the water rate was increased only last March by something like 30 per cent., and at the present time there is a movement on foot for the workmen employed by the corporation to have a war bonus of something like 3s. on their wages, which would involve a further expenditure during the year of some £70,000 or £80,000, so that in all probability the other rates will be raised next March. Although I am very much against anything like an excessive raising of rents, in all cases where the owner of these small houses has to pay very much more in the way of outgoings such as I have indicated, if he can show to the satisfaction of some competent tribunal that the increase which he proposes—it may be only a small sum, 6d. or Is.—is entirely due to the rise in the cost of materials, the cost of labour, rates and taxes, and so forth, and that it will only give him a fair return on his capital, I think the increase ought to be allowed. In order to estimate whether or not the proposed increase is fair, I think it would be well if the Bill provided for the setting up of Fair Rent Courts or something of that kind. If there were some such tribunal, perfectly impartial, to which a tenant might appeal before any increase was made, I feel certain that any excessive increases would be amply safeguarded against and the tenant properly protected.
My right hon. Friend said that the high wages which working people are receiving at the present time had nothing to do with the case. I think it would not have, if the proposed increase were excessive; but I think it has a great deal to do with the case where it is simply a fair and proper increase, because the landlord may have hesitated to put on any increase during the time when the tenant was not receiving good wages, but any compunction about asking for a fair increase would be entirely done away with by the fact that the tenant was now receiving much better wages than he had done for many years, past. My right hon. Friend also made-some allusion to compounding. The arrangements as to the compounding of rates is very unequal in various parts of the country. In Birmingham you cannot compound for houses at a higher rent than 6s. 6d. a week, whereas in London the amount is 11s. or 12s. The result is that in Birmingham and other provincial towns landlords do not get the same benefit from the compounding of rates as in London. It. also has the curious effect that in Birmingham if you put up your rent to 7s. or 7s. 6d. you do not really get a bigger return from your house than if you charged 6s. 6d. That is a thing which might very well be remedied, and its remedy would very likely have the effect of keeping down rents. There is no doubt a great shortage of houses in many districts, especially in munition areas, but is a Bill of this kind calculated to encourage people to supply that shortage by building additional houses? We know perfectly well that, building being as expensive as it is, people will not build unless they can get a fair return for their money. Do not, therefore, do anything to discourage people from supplying this shortage. I was in Coventry the other day, and I was told that there was a shortage there of 5,000 houses at the present time. Who will supply that shortage if you are going to cramp and injure their getting a fair rent for their money?
As to the question of interest, what I am going to say rather cuts against my own advantage, because, having a very large amount of property to deal with, I have to deal with many mortgages; therefore it is to my advantage that the mortgage interest should be kept down. But it seems to me entirely unfair that a man who has lent money on mortgage in times when money was not nearly as valuable as it is at the present time, should not be allowed to raise his interest to a fair level His money has now gone up in value, as is evident from the fact that on first-class Government securities you can get 4½ per cent., and will probably soon be able to get 5 per cent. I know a case where £6,000 or £7,000 was lent some years ago at 3½ per cent., and the rate of interest has never been raised. Seeing that the mortgagee will have to pay 3s. 6d. Property Tax on that 3½ per cent., what return will he have left on his money? It is quite right that mortgagees should be prevented from unduly raising their interest; I do not think they should be allowed to raise it to more than 4½ per cent. or 5 per cent., but I think justice would be done and every contingency would be met if the Bill provided, not that mortgagees should be allowed to raise their interest at all, but that they should not be allowed to raise it beyond a certain level during the War. I would suggest that that level should be the rate at which War Loans for the time being were issued. I have not risen to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill at all, but I hope the points I have mentioned will be fairly considered, and that my right hon. Friend will try to make the provisions of the Bill a little more in accordance with justice as regards landlords and mortgagees.
The hon. Gentleman opposite has undoubtedly pointed out some difficulties in this Bill, but I think that no one is more aware than the Government of the difficulties of the problem with which they have to deal. As the President of the Local Government Board indicated when introducing the Bill, it would be impossible on grounds of logic or of political economy to justify this measure, and when my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield (Sir Tudor Walters) ventured into the dangerous region of giving reasons for this Bill on grounds of political economy I could not help feeling that he very much weakened his case. It is one of those instances in which reasons had better not be given. Although the question is an extremely difficult one, and the action is illogical and unsound on grounds of political economy, I feel that some such measure was inevitable. We are not living in ordinary times when ordinary rules and ordinary laws of political economy hold good. We are at war, and this is a war measure—a temporary measure for the war, which can be justified only on grounds of expediency, and not on any other. You cannot thrust a crowbar into the business relations of this country without doing a lot of damage somewhere and without creating injustices. There is no doubt that this measure will create injustices. Many people, some of whom are earning bigger wages that they have ever had before, will be relieved of the payment of perfectly legitimate increases in rent which they could easily pay, and which the property legitimately ought to bear. They will be relieved. But I see no method of making them pay and at the same time relieving a very large number of other people who are not getting increasing wages and who really cannot pay— whether they ought or ought not to bear this increase. Personally, I see no practical means of discriminating between the two. It is quite true—I have mentioned it several times in this House, and it ought to be abundantly realised—that the owners, not only of small property, but of property running up to considerable prices in this country, are in the main small people.
Wealthy people are not the owners of small property to anything like the extent that small people are. Small people like to invest in something they can see; that is why they invest in houses. They do not invest in Stock Exchange securities. I do not see why this Bill is limited to certain areas. If it is sound on grounds of expediency, I think it ought to extend all over the country, and I am not at all sure that there are any sound grounds for limiting the amount of the rent. I do feel that the stage we have reached in the War is one where the pressure will be hardest, not on the working classes, but on many middle-class people, professional people, small tradespeople, and others, that are not getting any extra payment of any kind. They will be under the greatest pressure, and I think that they ought to be put under this Bill, and the more readily because, so far as concerns houses the rental of which is more than £20 and £30 a year, I do not believe that there will be any increase in rent. There may be increases in the mortgage interest, and that will be a hardship to the owner of the house if conditions make it impossible for him to increase the rent. It would simplify the whole matter if the Bill were made applicable in every direction. My hon. Friend made a great point of the fact that you cannot increase the rate of interest on gilt-edged securities. Yes, but he did not refer to the fact that the interest is permanent and fixed, and in many instances guaranteed! All who have anything to do with mortgages know that when the rate of interest goes down in the country those who have borrowed money pretty soon come and ask for the rate of interest to be got down. If it has gone down, there is no getting the rate of interest down on gilt-edged securities such as railway debentures and London County Council stock. That is one illustration. [An HON. MEMBER: "It does not apply."] My hon. Friend says it does not apply, but I venture to think it does.
There is an important matter to which I think the President of the Local Government Board ought to give his attention. A very large amount of money is lent by building societies on mortgage on small class of property. A considerable amount of that money comes into the hands of the building societies on loan, by depositors; money which they can withdraw at short notice. These building societies are lending this money at a given rate of interest. If you forbid them to raise the rate of interest the depositing of money, mainly by small people, with the building societies, will be diverted to where a larger rate of interest can be obtained—in Government loans and in other directions. A considerable amount of money has been withdrawn from building societies and put into Government loans and other investments. People can-not have a larger rate of interest through a building society without endangering the solvency of the society, unless the building society can also get a larger rate on its loans. If they withdraw their money because the building society will not pay and cannot pay them a higher rate, you may endanger the solvency of a considerable number of building societies in this country having a very large accumulation of funds, and representing the investments and savings of a very large number of small people. That is a very difficult point indeed to deal with. I commend it to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. I think the House sees my point, and it is an important one.
In regard to extending the area, I think it is quite possible that it is desirable outside these munitions areas, where employment is worst and where difficulties have arisen which are not known at all in the munitions areas. Many of our seaside resorts and other places of the kind are suffering seriously from the War. In those areas rent-raising, if it takes place, would be far more serious than in the munitions areas. Any attempt to increase the mortgage would be very serious. [An HON. MEMBER: "Or to call it in!"] I think these people ought to be protected by this measure as well as the people of other areas. With respect to housing, we have got to bear in mind through all this kind of legislation that legislation has had a great deal to do with the shortage of houses. It is quite true that nobody thinks of building houses now; the cost of building them is too great, but the effect of legislation on the supply of houses began before the War. This kind of legislation, if it is not carefully safeguarded and made perfectly certain that it is only a temporary expedient and a war measure, will all tend to alarm people who have hitherto put their money into property. It is not merely the man who buys the house, but those who lend the money on the house. All these more or less covert attacks upon the owners of property will make it extremely difficult to induce people to buy houses, and unless they are bought they will not be built. I know some of my hon. Friends will be very glad to do anything of the kind that would rush the country into municipal housing by this measure and others of a similar nature, but if that result they will find, as in many things of this kind, that it is not the end. If you are going to pile up an enormous national debt, and an enormous municipal debt, and increase it by expending money, whether in wholesale schemes of housing, or otherwise, you will find you have to pay more money for municipal loans. You may easily run them up 1 per cent., and the result of that would be a very serious increase in the rates for everybody. Therefore, I feel with the right hon. Gentleman that this Bill cannot be defended in logic, or on grounds of political economy; that it can only be defended on the grounds of expediency and special conditions as a war measure It is on these grounds that I venture to defend it, and ask that it should be extended to other property and to all parts of the country.
This measure is a matter for congratulation. I have never followed the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley more cordially than I do in the observations he has made. As a rule I am afraid it will be found that we are poles apart. Further, anything I may say I trust the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will look upon as a perfectly friendly criticism, delivered with the very best spirit, and with a desire to make this Bill, as we hope it will be made, a real and effective measure. I join in the plea urged from every quarter of the House for the extension of the Bill both in area and in rent. I would rather see the Bill made universal, because I cannot see, with our means of communication so great to-day as they are, that there is any logic in drawing a hard and fast line and allowing the Bill to operate on one side of that line and not on the other. Take my own county. A great many of the boundary lines of the county of Middlesex—as it was left by the London Government Act of 1888, when London was taken out of it— now run down the centre of roads. In that condition of things you have Willesden on one side of the roadway and perhaps Marylebone on the other, though Willesden will be within the Bill because of its large population. There are, however, many cases where the population of the urban districts on the Middlesex side is not sufficiently large to bring the Bill into operation, whereas just across the road, in the county of London, where the Bill will apply, the population is not so large as in Middlesex, warehouses and other means having been taken to occupy the space in lieu of houses.
I would ask the President of the Local Government Board very seriously to consider the enlargement of the Act. It is said that this Bill has been asked for by the Munitions Department. If it is to be considered as a measure that is necessary in order to make the output of munitions effective by giving men that are living there a reasonable rent, and a reasonable limit of place from where they work to live, then I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman to make the area the same as that for the munitions. It would be better to take the same area as has been prescribed by the Board of Control in relation to the Munitions Act, and, of course, that would be the Metropolitan Police area. If the right hon. Gentleman can see his way to do that, or, failing that, take the London Postal District, he will impress very much the urban constituencies, which are very seriously affected by the measure. He has been so kind as to receive a deputation from my own Division. If there is one thing I admire, it is the frankness of the landlord when he tells the tenants, "You must bear some of my Imperial burdens, and therefore I must raise your rents." I hope the circumstances of the particular case put before the Local Government Board, as it has been, will help the President very considerably in finally moulding this measure. I would remind the House of the enormous possibilities of a great number of the population carried by tubes, or motor traction, from large distances. Consider the extension of the Metropolitan Tube, which takes people from South London, under the river, up to Waterloo and Charing Cross, and then afterwards as far as Watford. Many come through to Watford, certainly most go to London Bridge. The District Railway, extending as it does, takes people to Hoxton, and other districts. I do not, therefore, think you can arbitrarily fix the districts, and say that one must be regarded as of necessity included in the Bill, while other districts depend upon particular circumstances. I hope, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman may be able to make a substantial change by introducing one or other of these larger districts, the Metropolitan Police District, or the London Postal area.
I agree heartily with the observations made on the other side of the House, of the desirability, so far as these areas which are considered necessary are concerned, that their operations should be made effective by a Clause in the Bill, and not be dependent upon an Order in Council. I do not wish to repeat what has been said, and with which I find myself in hearty agreement, though I had proposed to say it; but I should like to point out a very considerable hardship done to men who are in possession of houses, or who are the mortgagees of houses which are not within the Bill as it stands, but would be within it if it were raised to £50. I have with me here an illustration of the way in which these large building societies deal with rent. It is a case of a mortgage of three houses worth £400 each, or £1,200 in all, which are mortgaged for £700 to the Hearts of Oak Building Society. At the opening of the War they put pressure on the mortgagor to pay quarterly instalments—small sums, I agree—on the principal, and he, under pressure of circumstances, conceded it; but now a new phase having come, they have called in their money, and the man is utterly unable to provide it. It is just one of those cases where this Bill ought to be extended so as to take in a house of £50 rateable value, which would give relief to a very large and straggling class of people. Then the Local Government Board have overlooked a small offender, and that is the person who exacts key money. Under Clause 2, Sub-section (2), a landlord is prevented, and quite rightly prevented, from exacting a fine or a premium. I think that same doctrine ought to extend to the tenant.
I think the hon. and learned Member will find that the case of key money is covered. We will consider that when we come to the Committee stage, but that is the intention.
I am very glad to hear it, and I hope when we get to the Committee stage we shall have words produced; but, so far as I can read the Clause, a person who takes key money is not a person within the meaning of this Bill.
The tenant who takes key money from another in-coming tenant—that is a case which will have to be considered. I do not think that is actually covered by the words in the Bill, but it will have to be considered when we get in Committee.
I am very glad to hear it, because I think it is a case which does work very great mischief in working-class areas. I think that exhausts the criticism I have to make on the Bill as a whole. I hope it will be passed in an enlarged form. I hope also it will be merely of a temporary character, and that when we get through our troubles with regard to the War legislation will no longer be necessary to interfere, as this does, with all the old economic principles. We have, however, to reckon with those who are putting pressure on others less able to bear the burden, and I speak most feelingly of those people not benefited by the Munitions Act, such as clerks and warehousemen, and many others, whose salaries have been reduced in some cases because of the War. I do hope that by the extension of the Bill that very large class of deserving people may receive attention at the hands of Parliament.
Like Members who have spoken, I welcome this Bill introduced by the President of the Local Government Board. He has responded to the desire of the House of which he has been informed by the questions many of us have been putting from time to time, and while I approach this Bill as one which he has brought forward in a most generous spirit, like the other Members who have spoken I desire to offer a little criticism upon it. I do sincerely trust that the criticism of Members who have spoken will be considered by the right hon. Gentleman, and that he will not only extend the area of his Bill but make it universal. I think he will find that it will tend towards the simplicity of the working of this measure to a very material degree. I will presently give one or two illustrations of the way in which it will work if the area is not extended. I first of all appreciate the remarks of the hon. and learned Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield) with regard to extension outside London. The hon. and learned Member has drawn a line which he thinks would meet the whole of the difficulty of Greater London, and he has fixed upon the Metropolitan Police area. In his Division that may cover the population that would be affected, but I may say that in the South of London, and I should think also in the North and West of London, it does not go far enough. We all know that the Metropolitan Police area is roughly a 15-mile circle from Charing Cross. That would go a large way into the country, but I can say from my own practical experience in my own Constituency that would just draw an arbitrary line between some parts of what are munition areas and some parts which might not be considered munition areas that are affected by the raising of rent.
I, therefore, join at once with all that has been put before the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the abolition of the 100,000 population. I have tried to find out why that figure was chosen. I have looked up several returns with regard to boroughs, urban councils, and other bodies, and I cannot for the life of me find out why this figure of 100,000 was chosen. If you go into the returns so far as England is concerned, not London only but outside, the whole of the big industrial areas, you will find it shuts out the people who would be suffering from the raising of rent. I think, in the short Debate the other night the hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes) said he was satisfied with those portions and with the money portion. I want to say that, so far as I am concerned, I hope that the President of the Local Government Board will abolish his 100,000 at once, and I think I can show that there is an absolute necessity, if he is to deal with the cases where rent is being unjustly raised, for him to deal with the cases of those who are beyond £21. In my own Constituency I have reckoned out some figures of rent, and I find that all the cases are put outside the scope of this Bill. We have been told that rents were going up previously to the War breaking out. Therefore the argument that is sometimes put forward may in some cases be true, but it is not true in all cases that the landlord has only raised the rent to get back to a rental which had been decreased previously because of the houses not letting freely. If there has been this great shortage of houses of which we have heard, and therefore the rent that has been got has been the largest economically the landlord could get before the outbreak of the War, there is no justification for his raising it in the way he has raised it.
I find that in September, 1913, rents were put up in a road in my neighbourhood Is. a week, from 8s. 6d. to 9s. 6d. In November, 1914, they were raised another Is. to 10s. 6d. In September, 1915, they were raised from 10s. 6d. to 11s. 6d. If we are to have this systematic raising of rent where there is an influx of population, if no Bill of this description is brought in, what rent are we going to pay? In the whole of these rentals to which I have alluded you get entirely outside the scope of this Bill. These are not inside London but inside urban districts. Take the largest urban district you have got there, that of Erith, so far as population is concerned at the last Census it was under 26,000. I will not say what is the population at the present moment, because none of us are aware. A huge population has been brought in which has to be housed as best it can, and if it were not war time this would not be the only illogical thing, because I think the sanitary authorities would have to interfere to see that the crowding in houses was not going On as it is at the present time. I allude to that in order to emphasise the fact that in discussing this Bill we are discussing a Bill like all the emergency legislation passed by this House. It is not whether it is logical, and whether it is sound from an economical point of view, but we are discussing a Bill we believe is practically necessary, because of the condition of things in which the country finds itself on account of the War. It may be said that I have given an isolated case. I have another instance in the same road, where in February, 1913, the rent was raised from 8s. 6d. to 9s. In September of the same year it was again raised from 9s. to 9s. 6d. In January, 1915, it was increased from 9s. 6d. to 10s 6d., and in October last from 10s. 6d. to 11s 6d. I have taken the trouble to verify this by examining the rent book of the tenant. In one particular case I went through the rent book and saw that, not only had they paid this excessively increased rental, but, what is more, they paid it up to the last week when I examined the book and when the rent was due. There, again, that place is outside the scope of this Bill. I could weary the House with a number of other cases. In one the rent was raised in November, 1914, from 8s. to 9s., and in April, 1915, from 9s. to 10s. In another case it was raised from 9s. 6d. to 10s. 6d. in December, 1914, and from 10s. 6d. to 12s. in September last. All these cases are outside the measure. I could go on with other cases, but I think I have quoted enough to show that, so far as this Bill is concerned, it leaves out houses which ought to come within the scope of the Bill.
5.0 P.M.
I know it will be said that, under the Bill, the Government can issue an Order in Council and deal with the area as a munition area. I want to support the statement made by other Members, that the machinery required for an Order in Council may lead to inquiries, linked to an amount of litigation which is totally unnecessary. We think that the Bill can be simplified materially by the Government altering their Clause, and I would ask, in support of what was said on the other side, whether the right hon. Gentleman would consider the advisability, if he agrees with us in altering the population basis and the rental basis, of amending his Clause and saving us the trouble of putting down an enormous number of Amendments which would be necessary for private Members to do to attempt to bring this Bill into something like a consecutive form. A good deal has been said, and I want to support it, with regard to small middle-class people, among them the first-class mechanic. They do not all take weekly property. Some of them take quarterly property; in fact, there is a very large amount of quarterly property, and here the people are suffering in the same way. I have cases here in the Bexley urban district of notices given last September to raise the rent from £27 5s. to £30. Is that to help the landlord because of any burden he has incurred? No! The tenant bears all the responsibility of the rates and taxes, except, of course, the tax which the landlord must not get rid of. The tenant bears all the other rates and taxes besides the burden of increased rent. By your Bill they are millionaires outside the scope of this measure. What are you going to do for them? If it is said they must pay more because they are people who are getting increased remuneration at the present time, I would remind the House that a good many of those people are not getting increased remuneration. I will give one example of houses in this area which covers a large number of oases. It is that of a widow, who is a schoolmistress. She has two sons at the front, and receives no extra remuneration, and she is threatened with this increase of rent. That case comes within the Bexley urban district area. You say that you will alter the 100,000 limit to 50,000, but that is no use. In Bexley the population is under 16,000, and this shows it is a mistaken idea, and also shows a want of knowledge of how property lets in and around large towns. You cannot fix an arbitrary figure that will meet the difficulty with regard to population. I admit that there are a number of urban councils round about, but you exempt them because you bring the limit down to an urban council that had 16,000 population at the last Census. Take another place with a population of 26,000 at the last Census in 1911. You say you are going to have a munition area. What is a munition area? What area are you going to fix up as a munition area? You will find in framing the Order in Council to bring in other places great difficulty in defining munition areas, but why should you bother about this? You are drawing some arbitrary line which will shut out a great number of persons who are just as much entitled to relief under this Bill as any other area.
I will take another case to enforce the argument as to the necessity of lowering the population and the rateable basis. Take Bexley Heath. I hold a letter in my hand from a gentleman there who is paying a rent of £24 a year, and that would shut him out. His rent is to be raised to £30 at Christmas. His rent is being raised not because the landlord is bearing any more Imperial burdens than the rest of us, but because of an increase in the value of property there. This tenant under your Bill is going to have his rent raised, and his would get no relief whatever unless you do this munition area business over again. This gentleman lives at Bexley Heath, which is outside the London area. Coming back to London in the case of Abbey Wood, though residents there would be in the borough of Woolwich, there the tenants would be protected, and in the case I have just mentioned the landlord could not put the £6 increase on because it is under the £30 limit for London. Can there be any defence of a system like that? I think it is only necessary to point these facts out to the right hon. Gentleman and he will at once realise the necessity of broadening out his measure and doing what we all desire. I have other examples which I could give at Brockley, which is part of Lewisham. These are people who are not doing munition work, and yet their rents are going up from £28 to £30, and £30 to £32. I know those would come in because the top rent is £30 a year, but if you go to £32 and £34 the tenant would be penalised even in London. Why should that be so? If it is wrong in the one case it is equally wrong for these small struggling people, and why should you have this exemption with regard to cases, of this description? I hope that the President of the Local Government Board will listen, as I believe he will, with an open mind to the desires of all hon. Members of the House, for we only want to do one thing, and that is to help him to make his Bill as perfect an Act as possible, so that it will work with the least amount of friction, and give that relief which he thinks is necessary in the case of these poor tenants.
In his speech last Thursday the right hon. Gentleman said that he did not believe the raising of rents was universal, nor did he believe it was as widespread as many people thought. Surely that is another additional reason why he should at once make it universal, because if it is not as widespread as some people think it certainly does occur in various parts of the country. I will take a glaring illustration. in Gainsborough, in Lincolnshire. This is a small place which does not come within the scope of this Bill, and I could give other cases. If it is not universal and widespread, at any rate let us take in all the people who are raising their rents unjustly in the emergency of the War by making the measure universal. I know there are cases where a landlord thinks he is entitled to raise the rent for something he has done, but in that case I would give him the option of taking the tenant to the County Court in order to justify the rise in rent, and that seems to me a simple way of doing it, and much more simple than the cumbersome procedure to be found in this Bill. I think by a provision of that sort you would clear the way very materially. When the right hon. Gentleman speaks I hope he will give us a promise of the relief which we all ask for in regard to this measure. I can assure him that this Bill has been welcomed by a very large number of people. We do not want to criticise anybody with regard to the landowner, and in reference to the building of houses, because that is another question altogether, and we are not dealing now with houses that have got to be built. New houses may cost a larger sum in building on account of the increased price of material and the cost of labour, but they would not be affected by this measure, and there is no standard rate to apply to them.
The person who builds new houses will get what he can according to the requirements of the locality, but this is a question quite outside the scope of this measure. I know we want more houses built, and they are wanted nowhere more than they are in my own Constituency, where we have almost every public building commandeered by the Government for munition work. We have had some places where the people have been disturbed, like the Royal Albert Home at Belvedere. We have one little institution which we are prepared to place at the disposal of the President of the Local Government Board, or the Minister of Munitions, and give him every information, and I would like to have the opportunity of taking two or three hon. Members down there to show what could be done. We are prepared to show where you can get large houses in order to house these munition workers. I sincerely trust that the right hon. Gentleman will at once announce to us his intention to fall in with the unanimous desire of the House that the rent limit must go, that the population limit must also go, and that he himself will propose Amendments which will enable us all to support him and carry this measure through speedily, in order that it may be placed upon the Statute Book.
I want to join in the chorus in order that the right hon. Gentleman may fully realise that the House is in entire agreement with him in regard to this measure, and we hope he will see his way to allow this limit to go. It is hardly necessary at this time to give instances in the County of London—
Does the hon. Member mean the limit in regard to the area or the rent?
I am dealing at the present moment with the area limit, but if he is going to make that concession it is hardly necessary for me to continue to discuss that point. I wish to put one or two cases in my own Constituency, where there is a great shortage of houses. In Southall, just before the War began, they were ordered to undertake a housing scheme. That scheme has been stopped, with the result that there is a great shortage of housing accommodation, and rents are going up. Naturally, in Southall, they fail to see when one part of the Great Western area of London, which is in the County, is to have the benefit of this Bill, why another part, which is in the County of Middlesex, is not to have the same benefit. All these large districts around London are really part of London, and there are no means of making any differentiation. In one case, having regard to the conditions arising out of the present War, the provisions of the Act are to apply, and in the second case, of a smaller district, it is only to apply owing to the influx of population or other circumstances due to the War. I do not suggest that in the case I have mentioned there is an influx of population, and there is no munition work. Where there is munition work, as a rule the rate of wages gradually goes up, but where there is no munition work there is no impetus to drive up wages, which we all admit is taking place in certain munition areas.
In the non-munition areas, it is all the more essential that it should not be left to the landlords to try and raise the rents, and get an advantage owing to the scarcity of housing accommodation during the War. In places just outside London there is another reason why it is desirable that rents should not be raised. Inside London when a man has gone to the War his wife gets a separation allowance plus 3s. 6d. extra because she is in the London area, but just outside that area, in Southall, the wife gets no extra 3s. 6d., although in a place close by, like Hanwell, the wife gets that extra 3s. 6d., and although I have tried to get this altered, I have failed. In Southall, where the wife does not get the extra 3s. 6d. which is paid in the London area, it is more essential even than in the London area that rents should not be raised during the War. There is one other point I would like to bring to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman. In Clause 3, Sub-section (4), mortgages by deposit of title deeds are exempted from the provisions of the Act, but I do not see why that should be so. If I have some small house property and if I have a mortgage on it by deed, my mortgage cannot be called in, but if I have merely gone to a lawyer or a friend and got a mortgage by depositing title deeds, the Act does not apply, and that mortgagee can call upon me to raise the interest or pay up the mortgage. There may be some reason for it, but I call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to it because I cannot see any reason, and I hope that point will be explained. If there is no real reason for this differentiation, I think that portion of the Clause might be omitted.
I wish to add my appeal that the Bill should apply generally and that the limit both as to rent and area should be abolished. There is another point. Why should not the provision with regard to mortgages also be made applicable to the case of the small farmer? This House for the last two years has been encouraging the tenant to acquire his farm in order to save his home, with the result that to-day the small farmer who has acquired his holding finds that he is called upon either to repay the mortgage or to pay increased interest. I am afraid that in a good many cases that means actual ruin for the tenant farmer. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will also consider the position of the small farmer who has bought the property and is now called upon either to repay the mortgage or to pay higher interest. Reference has been made to future mortgages. I hope he will make the position quite positive. I am not quite clear in my own mind as to what will be the effect upon mortgages raised after the date of the passing of this Act. Is the rate of interest to be in any way affected by this Bill? I find that in Clause 3, Sub-section (4) there is a provision with regard to equitable mortgages as follows:—
"This Act shall apply to every mortgage … except that it shall not apply to an equitable mortgage."
I take it that exception is made to meet the case of equitable mortgages effected in banks. Are we to understand with regard to future mortgages that equitable mortgages are to be outside the Bill and legal mortgages are to be within the Bill?
Yes.
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his answer. We all know that at the present time the building trade is severely handicapped. It is going to be an exceedingly difficult matter for the building trade and for the allied slate trade if we are going to prohibit future mortgages on building property except at the rate mentioned in this Bill. While I agree with the proposal both with regard to rents which exist at present and with regard to the interest now payable on existing mortgages, I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, in the interests of the building trade and the allied trades, not to interfere with future mortgages.
I rise to call attention to one or two defects in the measure as it is designed to affect Ireland. Clause 4, Sub-section (2), which applies the Bill to Ireland, says:—
"This Act shall apply to Ireland, subject to the following modifications: A borough or urban district with a population exceeding twenty-five thousand shall be substituted for a borough or urban district with a population exceeding one hundred thousand."
The object, so far as Ireland is concerned, is to confine the operations of the Act to boroughs or urban districts with a population exceeding 25,000. Another objectionable feature of the Bill is the provision in Clause 3, Sub-section (2), paragraph ( b ), that in the case of houses situated outside London the Act shall only apply to houses with an annual rent of under £21. So far as Ireland is concerned, the provisions of this Bill are absolutely worthless if those limits as to population and as to rental are to be maintained. I do not know from what source the right hon. Gentleman derived the information upon which he drafted the Clauses to which I have referred. The Bill, I take it, is meant to cure the hardship which is caused mainly, if not altogether, by the War. I quite agree that towns and urban districts and large centres of population where munition work is being carried on are harder hit than other places, because owing to the large influx of workpeople the demand for houses has been greatly intensified, but it is common knowledge, both in the House and outside, that since the War commenced building operations have practically ceased, and in this respect towns in which munition work is not being carried on are just as hard hit, however small the population may be, as larger towns and larger areas in which munition work is being carried on and where the scarcity of houses produced by the cessation of building operations has been enhanced by the influx of a working population.
I know with a good deal of certainty that this is so with regard to Ireland. It is noticeable in the Reports of the Local Government Board of Ireland. Complaint has been made for a long time of the necessity for housing schemes in rural areas in Ireland. That is so in Dublin, and it is so in my own Constituency in Sligo. I mention the town of Sligo for the sake of example. It is an urban community with a population of 10,000. Before the outbreak of war there was a scarcity of sanitary and proper accommodation for the working population of Sligo, and the Local Government Board recommended that there should be a housing scheme, assisted by the Board of Works, to help to provide sanitary and proper accommodation. A scheme had been placed before the Local Government Board before the War broke out, and the Local Government Board had actually recommended the scheme; but since the outbreak of war it has been found impossible to get money to aid in the financing of any scheme. Consequently the case of Sligo and towns similarly situated is as much a case of urgent necessity caused by war conditions as the case of larger towns and larger centres where this question has been made clamorous on account of the influx of munition workers. For these reasons I respectfully suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that his Bill will be absolutely useless so far as Ireland is concerned unless he amends it in those two particulars—by withdrawing entirely the limit of population and by lessening considerably, if not withdrawing, the limit of annual rental value.
It is a matter for congratulation that the House has, almost with one accord, agreed in the demise of political economy. Political economy or unlimited competition has had a fairly long and, I think, dishonourable life. It has enabled dealers in monopoly values to enrich themselves at the expense of the community. I take it that the principle of this Bill is rather to exalt the principle of national economy. It is perfectly true that that there is no political economy about this Bill, but there is a good deal of human economy and common sense. I was also glad to hear expressed an almost universal desire that the Bill should be applied generally, instead of only to munition areas and to certain populations described in the Bill. There having been: such a chorus of demand in that respect, I do not intend to go further into the matter. I was also very glad to find, with one or two exceptions, that there had been no demand for Rent Courts, which, to my mind, would simply have perpetuated an evil and created a great deal more discontent in the areas where discontent already exists as the result of the raising of rents. It is not lawyers and the law's delays that we want; it is something, based upon a right principle, which will be immediately effective, and I think the right principle is included in this Bill, namely, pre-war rents and a determination that no class of persons shall benefit as the result of the increased demand for houses arising from the War. It may be said that might be applied with equal and even more justice to others than the owners of houses, and I cordially agree.
There was a curious remark by my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Rowlands) as to new houses not being affected by the Bill. That is true in one sense, but not in another. It is perfectly true when new houses are built that there will be no pre-war standard to apply, but I am perfectly sure, if something more is not done before the Bill runs out, there will be very few new houses built. I have in my mind that interest charges will go up, that wages will be high, and that the price of everything needed for the construction of houses will be high. Therefore houses will be dear and rents will go up if political economy is again to have sway. I merely express the hope, in passing, that political economy will not be reconstituted, so to speak, but that in order to avert the danger that will be sure to arise if this Bill ceases to be operative either six months or twelve months after the War, and landlords and mortgagors are again put in the position of applying competitive terms, something will be done whereby there will be a large increase in the number of houses built. That is the only way by which we can avert increases of rent, both for old and for new houses. I take it, whatever public opinion may say in regard to increased rents for new houses where the cost of construction has been legitimately increased owing to high wages and high prices generally, public opinion in this country will not tolerate increased rents for old houses. It, therefore, seems to me that something will have to be done whereby the number of new houses will be so increased as to increase the supply of houses generally, and thus keep down rents to the natural rents of old houses. There may be a good many opinions as to how that is to be done, but I think the local authorities ought to be subsidised by the Imperial Exchequer. The only way out of the difficulty will be some method whereby cheap money will be available to build new houses, and thus keep the rents down to what may be called the rents of this Bill, after the measure ceases to operate.
I only got up to say a few words on one or two things of a detailed character which have exercised the minds of some of my friends in Scotland. In the first case, Clause 1 lays it down that it shall be lawful for His Majesty by Order in Council to do certain things. There is a misunderstanding how this shall be applied. But it would almost look, from the reading of the Bill, that the Act must wait before it becomes operative for some central authority to put it into force. I think the order of procedure will be for the Secretary for Scotland to be satisfied somehow or other, by pressure brought to bear, or by representations made to him by anybody in a certain area of under 100,000, and if he is satisfied he will proceed to get an Order in Council issued. Providing that the Bill remains in its present form—and I am glad to have the assent of the Secretary for Scotland in the view I have expressed—it seems to me there is not much the matter with the measure. It has been urged that certain bodies should have the sole right of making representations to get the Bill applied. It has been said, with some show of reason, that the local representative authority of the district should do it. But it seems to me that is going to have rather the effect of narrowing the scope of the Bill, and therefore I would rather leave it as it is for representations to be made by anybody.
In Sub-section (2) of the same Clause there is a little ambiguity in regard to structural alterations. I take it what is meant here is to distinguish between structural alterations and ordinary repairs. On the face of it it seems quite fair, but I am told there are certain districts, especially in Scotland, where, owing to subsidences through mining operations, houses are very often sent askew, and in these cases it would, I submit, be rather hard if the tenant had to pay for the structural alterations which might be rendered necessary by the subsidence. I agree it is also hard on the landlord, but while we are dealing with this thing cannot we do something to put the responsibility on the right shoulders. The right shoulder in this case would be that of the people who are undermining, and, presumably, making a profit by so doing. I merely call the attention of the Secretary for Scotland to this little point, and I hope he will take it into serious consideration before we proceed to deal with the details of the Bill in Committee.
Again, in Sub-section (3) of the same Clause, there is a provision which apparently is intended for the protection of persons who have borrowed money. It is provided that a person who has borrowed money shall not be called upon by the person who has lent it to deliver up, so long as he continues to pay the standard rate of interest. That is all right, and I have nothing to say against it. But I should like it also to apply to the tenant, and put him in the same position as the person who has borrowed the money. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent a landlord ejecting a tenant who may be perfectly willing to pay the prewar rent. Suppose a tenant has been taking part in the agitation for the production of this Bill, and has thereby made himself objectionable to landlords. What is there to prevent his landlord ejecting him? I see nothing in the Bill. I do not want that the tenant shall be protected from ejection under any circumstances. He may be doing something in the way of destroying the property, or he may constitute himself a legal nuisance, and in such case a landlord should have the right to put into operation whatever legal powers he now possesses. But apart from that I think there might be something put into the Bill to limit the action of the landlord in regard to possible ejectments to tenants who may be destroying property, or have become a nuisance to their neighbours, or may be keeping a house of ill-fame, or anything of that sort. But a tenant should not be ejected so long as he is conducting himself decently, so long as he is making proper use of the property, and so long as he is willing to continue to pay the pre-war rent. I suggest that that point might be attended to when we come to deal with the Bill in Committee.
These are the only points to which I want to call attention. I am glad to find the Bill has evoked such a general chorus of approval. I know it has been said by many hon. Members, and notably by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford University that the measure cannot be defended on grounds of political economy. It can, however, be defended on the ground of emergency in a time of national stress. It can be defended from the point of view of easing the position of a large number of people whose wages have not been increased since the War began, and who nevertheless have to pay largely increased prices for commodities. It can be defended on many grounds. I hope and trust that its passage through the House through its remaining stages will be characterised by the same amount of approval and goodwill as has been given to it on the First and Second Reading.
When the right hon. Gentleman introduced this Bill I welcomed it as a piece of emergency legislation which would protect tenants from rapacious landlords and also protect landlords from rapacious mortgagees. I am a little disappointed, however, to find no reference in the Bill to local authorities. It is admitted we are dealing with a class of property in connection with which the landlord usually pays the rates and taxes, and I think the vast majority of landlords would display no opposition to the intentions of the right hon. Gentleman in regard to this measure. But it has been represented to me that there is no protection for the landlord against an increase of rates by the local authority, and it is thought by many that that is a particularly weak spot. If rents here and there have been increased, the increases have recently come under the notice of the local authority. Let me deal first with the case of the Metropolis. The local assessment committees have had a new schedule of rates before them—a new general revaluation of the Metropolis has been made, and will remain in operation for the ensuing five years. It seems hard that the landlords are to pay on a higher basis of rateable value and yet are to go back to the pre-war standard rents. I think I am giving voice to a real grievance which reasonable landlords are feeling in regard to this Bill.
Again, it has been pointed out that in the provinces there has been a considerable increase of rates of late. The figures I have before me show that the rates have been steadily going up. In the central district of Manchester they have gone from 7s. 9d. to 8s. 9d. In North and South Manchester from 7s. 10d. to 8s. 10d., and there are sub-districts in Manchester where they have gone up from 8s. 6d. to 8s. 11d. These are fair samples of the general increase of rates in the district, and the same applies to many other parts of the United Kingdom, and especially munition areas. It would seem very unfair if the right hon. Gentleman cannot find some words in Committee to remedy an evil which will go on for a good many years, assuming that, unhappily, the War is not over. He might extend some protection to landlords against that. It will be readily realised that the rates are expended for the benefit not of the landlord but of the tenants, and the tenants have it in their power to curtail very largely the spending and extravagance of local authorities. It has been suggested that there might be a possibility of setting up a net rent standard for landlords; not a gross figure, but a net rent standard beyond which they could not go, the net rent standard being the amount received prior to the War.
Reference has been made to the building societies. I understand the right hon. Gentleman has received deputations representing very large and important bodies of the great societies, and very remarkable figures have been given as to the extent and ramifications of these societies. I am hoping the right hon. Gentleman, when he replies, will be able to deal with the case I have put before him. The deputations which have waited on him have told him that the last Government Return shows that the building societies have assets representing £66,000,000, of which £61,000,000 is advanced on mortgage. The mortgages not exceeding £500 amount to no less than £32,000,000. The mortgages between £500 and £1,000 amount to £11,000,000, so that the mortgages not exceeding £1,000 represent nearly £44,000,000. There are 617,000 members of building societies, and in addition there are a large number of depositors, so that altogether there are something like a million persons taking part in building society work one way or the other. It is, therefore, an exceedingly large and important industry. The great point affecting building societies is whether their deposits, owing to the fact that they can get better terms outside, will, unless some legislation is introduced in this Bill to prevent them, call in their money. The money flowing into the coffers of the societies from the borrowers is not so plentiful to-day as it has been in the past, and, therefore, if you are not very careful, you will swamp this great industry. I hope the right hon. Gentleman, in his reply, will give us some hope that he will, in Committee, introduce some amelioration of the prospect which awaits landlords who pay rates, and also do something to protect the great building societies.
I wish in a few words only to associate myself with what the hon. Member has just said with reference to the possible mischievous and, from a social point of view, hurtful effect which this Bill, if left in its present form, may have on the operations of certain great building societies. As to the principle of the Bill I have not heard the smallest doubt expressed. But it is desirable, while the purpose and character of the Bill are kept in view, that we should, if possible, achieve its main object with as little disadvantage to the individual as is consistent with the attainment of that main object. It is the case that certain large building societies, and I have in my mind large building societies in the North of England, may be very seriously prejudiced in their operations by the provisions of the Bill as they stand.
Let me give a single illustration. I take the case of a building society known to me, where they have something like £1,000,000 sterling on deposit. On money so deposited they pay a rate of interest of 3 per cent. Supplementing that, I may say that until the beginning of this year, that particular building society advanced loans at a rate of 3½ per cent. On 1st January of this year the rate was increased, after due notice to members, to 4 per cent., and there was universal acceptance of that addition. Notice has already been issued that from the 1st January next the rate of interest will be advanced to 4½ per cent., a rate of interest which is not excessive having regard to the current rates of interest on investments at the present time. In the case of this notice there has been no dissentient voice from any one of the members of that very large society. But if the Bill is to stereotype the rate of interest in that particular society to the figure of 3 per cent., which is the rate of interest according to the pre-war standard, then you are putting a most substantial pressure, having regard to the remunerativeness of money at the present time, upon the depositors to withdraw their deposits in order to reinvest in Government securities. The danger is more enhanced because the whole pressure of the Treasury at the present time is directed to diverting what capital is available to investment in Government securities. I am perfectly well aware that under the Building Societies Act there is, or appears to be, some measure of protection for building societies against the sudden withdrawal of deposits in times of emergency—that is to say, I understand the provision of the Act is that they cannot be summarily withdrawn in a time of emergency except according to a given ratio. While the extent of the safeguard actually provided by the Building Societies Act is very doubtful, it is perfectly obvious that if advantage is taken of a provision of that kind, the borrowing capacity of the particular society is virtually destroyed at a stroke. I hope that the President of the Local Government Board will give full consideration, consistent with the main object of his Bill, to the probable prejudicial effect upon societies to which everyone who is interested in the social prosperity of the people would desire to recognise and sanction, and to which they would give full protection.
There is only one other point to which I should like to call attention. Here, again, I am touching very closely the matter referred to by the last speaker. I refer to the case of the working man, who exists in large numbers in the industrial centres in the North of England, who has invested his savings in the purchase of cottage property. There are innumerable cases in the North—I can speak for the West Riding of Yorkshire— where the man lets the cottage that he owns at an inclusive rent and pays the rates. In many of the West Riding towns rates have sensibly increased since the War began. Unless that increase in the local rates, in cases like that, is taken into consideration, you are not by this Bill keeping things at a pre-war standard, but you are actually condemning the owner of that cottage to something less than the pre-war standard, in the case of the rent of his small property. These may seem small points, but since the object of the Bill is to protect the tenant against the pressure of circumstances of the War, this House at least ought to give some consideration to the case of the small property owner and see that he is not actually prejudiced because of the object of the House in passing this particular Bill. These are the only points I desire at this stage to press upon the attention of the Local Government Board, and I would suggest that they are points which possibly might be met with consideration without any detriment to the main purpose of the Bill.
There are a few points I would venture to bring before the attention of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. First, I should like to press upon him the desirability of sweeping away the restrictions as to area. It seems to me that if a man raises his rent, or raises the interest on his mortgage, he does so for one purpose, that is, to ask his tenant, or the mortgagor to help him to bear the additional expenses the War has thrown upon him. That is the motive throughout. How it is possible, where there is no moral distinction between the rent or interest raising in different areas, to set up any geographical distinction I cannot imagine. It is impossible to defend the principle of a particular area for the operation of this Bill. The next point is the question of rates. That is a very important question. The right hon. Gentleman, in introducing the Bill, told us that he believed rates would rather go down than up; therefore this was not an important question. I venture most respectfully to differ from him on that matter. Rates are going up, and are going up in a very large number of districts. Obviously it is unfair that the tenant, by this Bill, should be protected from all the consequences of rates going up and that the whole burden of any rise in the rates should fall upon the landlords, who are assessed upon a new and higher assessment. As things are now, the tenant is probably aware that in some form or other some portion, at all events, of any rise in the rates will fall upon him. But under this Bill he is protected from that, and he is offered the inducement to increase the expenditure on the rates, knowing that the whole charge will fall upon the landlord.
Another point which I should like to urge upon the right hon. Gentleman is the question of future mortgages. That, again, is a very important point. If future mortgages are to come under the operation of this Bill, it will be putting a most effective stop to the expenditure of money upon building in this country. I am not sure whether it is intended that the Bill should apply to all future operations or not. But if it is so intended, and if the Bill carries that into effect, I hope it will be a point the right hon. Gentleman will carefully consider and, if possible, alter. There are two other points which are of a very technical character and which probably will not appeal to a lawyer, who has the answer ready to hand, but to a layman they are somewhat difficult. The first is, Are charges under the Land Transfers Act intended to be included in this Bill or not? I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell me that, but it is a question certainly of some importance. Secondly, supposing a lease at a ground rent on a house of the rateable value of £30 expires while still in the occupation of the ground lessee, will the landlord be prevented from raising that rent? I cannot conceive that the Bill is intended to apply to a case like that, where house property is passing by the expiration of time from ground rent to rack rent. Not being a lawyer, I cannot say whether the word "rent" does not cover both ground1 rent and ordinary rent. I hope that in his. reply the right hon. Gentleman will meet these two points, and, once more hoping that the other two points I have mentioned will have the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, I should like to say that I thoroughly approve of the principles involved in the measure.
6.0 P.M.
I should like to associate myself both with the congratulations which have been offered generally throughout the House to the right hon. Gentleman upon the character of the Bill and also with those, I think nearly as numerous, representations which have been directed to the elimination of all the restrictions both upon area and upon rent. I cannot pretend to have the expert knowledge of those who, like the hon. Gentleman who last addressed the House, have a special knowledge of house property, but it happens that in the last few weeks it has been my fortune to study pretty carefully an enormous mass of representations made from all parts of the country, both on behalf of tenants and on behalf of landlords. There has been some confusion of mind as to the meaning of the word "general" which was used by the right hon. Gentleman in introducing the Bill. He said that the evil which the Bill was designed to combat was not general. If that were taken to mean that not every landlord and not every house- owner in the Kingdom has increased his rent and not every mortgagee has sought to call in or increase the interest on his mortgage, it is perfectly true. But if, by saying "it is not general," the right hon. Gentleman meant that this evil is confined to a comparatively few special localities, then that really is not the case. I do not think, as a matter of fact, that the right hon. Gentleman could have meant that. Representations of one sort or another have been received from every kind of district, from Aberdeen, Plymouth, the East Coast of England, and Wales, to say nothing of Ireland. There is no part of the Kingdom geographically in which this evil has not arisen. Not only is that so, but I do not think it is possible to say that any particular kind of district or any particular kind of town has alone suffered. The complaints of both characters, both of the tenants who say that their rents have been raised or that even, perhaps, without that being done they are threatened with eviction although no rent is owing, and the complaints of house-owners who point out the pressure to which they are subjected by their mortgagees—these complaints are coming in, not only from great towns with a population of 100,000, not even from such towns with munitions areas, but they are coming in in some cases from quite small villages. As far as it goes the evil is just as real, the grievance just as great, and the hardship just as urgent as it is in the largest city. Therefore, I cannot conceive what justification there is, nor do I know that any has yet been put forward, for the restrictions which are to be found in the first Clause.
When they were introducing this legislation the Government had broadly the choice of two alternatives. They had the alternative which they have actually chosen, and they had the other alternative, which was favoured, I think, by only one speaker to-day, of setting up Fair Rent Courts. If they had adopted the alternative of setting up Fair Rent Courts, there might have been something to be said on the ground of administrative convenience for these restrictions, because it might have been argued, with a good deal of force, that in setting up a novel procedure of that kind you would not desire, naturally, to choke the Courts with an immense mass of cases, and though you may not be able to do complete justice to everyone, still you must choose and you must restrict the number of cases likely to come before the Court by first of all limiting the areas in which the Act has to be applied, and also by limiting, as is done by a later Clause of the Bill, the rentals to which the Act should apply. But since the Government has not chosen to take that course, but has taken the course, broadly, of setting up a standard rent and a standard rate of interest in case of mortgages, and of saying that rents and mortgage interest shall not be increased beyond that standard rate, there is no possible ground of administrative convenience to justify the restrictions in the first Clause and other Clauses of the Bill. On the contrary, I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that, so far from there being any administrative convenience in adopting the procedure by way of Order in Council, all the argument is the other way. I would point out, for example, the extraordinary inconvenience which will occur in this way in the case of places like Woolwich. I am informed that parts of Woolwich are not within the administrative county of London. The districts I am thinking of are not separate urban districts with a population of 100,000, therefore, if they are to be brought in at all they can only be brought in under the third condition, that is to say, where there is an influx of population or a dearth of housing accommodation, or other circumstances attributable to the War. I do not question at all that under that condition it would be perfectly possible to bring those areas in, but I cannot see the administrative convenience of first of all excluding an area of that kind, and then-having to go to the Department, I presume the Munitions Ministry in this case, under the Order in Council. I take that as an illustration of the inconvenience which would be caused from the purely administrative point of view by the procedure which it is proposed to adopt.
But really that is not the main ground on which I should urge the abolition of these limits. I cannot for the life of me see, if it is unjust, that people should be subjected in these times to increased pressure for rent, and if it is unjust for small owners to be subjected to increased pressure from their mortgagees, how it can be right that you should give relief in one area and not in another—that you should give relief in the case of rent of a certain value but not in the case of another value. The only possible ground I can conceive to justify that would be the ground of some administrative convenience, and I have already shown that administrative convenience simply does not exist. There is no administrative convenience in proceeding by way of Order in Council when once you have adopted the plan of fixing a standard rent and a standard rate of interest. If you were proceeding by setting up a Fair Rent Court that would be another matter. As it is, I see no ground of administrative convenience, and it is quite certain that you are going to do a quite unnecessary injustice. I hope when we come to the Committee stage the Government will be inclined to meet the whole case by allow-using us to omit the first Clause altogether, and also the limitation upon the rental in Clause 3.
The only other thing I desire to say is that I hope the Government will not listen to any of the complaints which have been made on behalf of mortgagees. As the right hon. Gentleman very well said when introducing the Bill, the real root of all this trouble lies with the action of the mortgagees. In the representations I have seen from house owners they have alleged, as a rule, three causes for the increase of rent—the increase of rates, the increased cost of repairs, and the increase in mortgage interest. As the right hon. Gentleman himself said, the increase of rates has been by no means universal. The increase in the cost of repairs is, no doubt, very substantial—I think something like 30 per cent.—but it does not operate universally, and I believe very few repairs are actually being done. But the pressure of the mortgagee is universal. Wherever there is small house property, the mortgagee either has actually demanded an increased rent or there is a well grounded apprehension that he is about to do so. I think the Government are very much to be congratulated on having had the courage to tackle that problem as completely as they have done. This House is always fairly tender towards the money-lender, and it was not altogether a very easy problem to tackle. I hope very much that the Government will not listen to any of the pleas which have been put forward. It was suggested by an hon. Member opposite, when the Bill was introduced, that the Government should give an undertaking that if mortgagees were prevented from foreclosing or effecting the sale of mortgaged property now, the Government should guarantee that the par value of their loan should be secured to them at the end of the War. I do not know whether that has been put forward seriously, but certainly, to my mind, it is a most astonishing proposal. Taxes are quite enough to bear already, without putting forward any such guarantee, and I think the case of the mortgagees-was completely demolished by the hon. Baronet opposite. I shall have occasion to move some Amendments in Committee, but at present I only desire to say that this is a good Bill as far as it goes, and I hope the Government will go in the direction rather of strengthening than of weakening it. I hope they will make its application universal all over the country, and I hope they will stick fast to their principle that if the house owner is to be restricted from increasing his rent in war time, as I think he should, the mortgagee should not be allowed to go scot-free.
I desire to add my voice to those who have urged upon the Government the need of making this Bill universal in its application. While it is perfectly true to say that landlords as a whole are prepared to deal perfectly fairly with their tenants, yet the proportion of landlords who have taken advantage of this War to raise their rents is probably rather larger than the right hon. Gentleman thinks. I have had in the course of the last few days letters from many parts of the country—from my own Constituency and from adjoining constituencies—which lead me to think that there are a considerable number of instances which this legislation very properly ought to check. I have here a case from Swindon where a man writes to me that he occupies a house which was let to him before the War at 6s. a week, and the rent has twice been raised during the War, 3d. a week each time; whereas a precisely similar house on the other side of the road belonging to a different landlord has remained at the same rental. That is the irritating thing about it. These people object, of course, to have their rents raised, but they object still more when they see the utterly unfair working of the present system, where their neighbours go on paying the same rent and they themselves are forced to pay higher and higher rent because of the War, and because of the greed of the landlord to whom the house belongs. I have-also cases from other parts of Wiltshire. I have a case in Chapel Street, Warminster, where the rent has been twice raised since the beginning of the War, and the total rise comes to about 6d. a week— a small sum, perhaps, when you consider it in itself, but still to the working man in these times 6d. a week means a very great deal. Then there is another case in Christ Church Terrace, Warminster, where the rent has been raised from £13, approximately, to £15, the rates, of course, being included in each case. I understand the rates had not suffered very much change. There are several others, all from towns in Wiltshire, which tend to show that this evil is not confined to any one particular area, but is spread about uniformly over the rest of the country.
I instanced the other day a case which tends to show that it is absolutely necessary, if justice is going to be done, that rural areas should be considered as well as town areas. In a rural area in Wiltshire, close to one of the big camps which have been established in the county—and there are a great many soldiers now in camp in Wiltshire—there are two cottages the rent of which was 5s. apiece before the beginning of the War. Since the War the rent has been raised to 13s. 6d. a week each, and the tenants now have received an intimation that very shortly the landlord proposes to turn them out to furnish the cottages and to let them to officers' wives at £2 a week apiece. A thing like that ought to be absolutely prohibited and made impossible. It is a perfect disgrace to this country that such a state of things should be tolerated for a moment, particularly when one comes to remember that in these very areas there was before the War a considerable shortage in cottage accommodation for the labourers. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to remove the restrictions as to areas, and to make this Bill universal in its application.
Another point with which I wish to deal is the question as to whether an allowance can fairly be made in cases where the rates have been increased during the War. I think that there is some just cause for taking into consideration cases where the rates—which are, after all, to some extent in the power of the tenant to cut down—have been increased. I think that that should be taken into consideration when you are discussing the question as to whether the landlord is to be allowed to increase his rent or not. Cases have occurred in my Constituency in Swindon, where there are a considerable number of working men who own cottage property and who have let their houses to other working men, and who now find that owing to increases in the rates they are being put in a worse position since the War than they were before the War. I think that in such cases it is only fair to take the question of the rates into consideration and make provision that increases in the rates shall be allowed as an excuse for putting a proportionate amount of them upon the rent.
An HON. MEMBER: If the rates were reduced, would there be a proportionate reduction?
That is another matter. Personally, I think it would be only fair. I should not object to that. It is hardly likely, however, that the rates will go down very much. However that may be, my object is to emphasise the two points I have brought forward. My main point, which I hope the Government will deal with in an Amendment, is that the Bill should be made universal in its application. I believe it to be a thoroughly good Bill. I desire to join in the chorus of praise of the courage of the Government for having brought the Bill in, and so far as I am concerned I am prepared to give it my hearty support.
I rather think that I was the first Member to call the attention of the President of the Local Government Board to this question of increased rents. I did so in a question so long ago as June last, and he replied that such a measure would be highly contentious and the Government could not possibly bring it in. I thought that it could scarcely be so contentious as that, and I am glad to see that the Government have thought better of the matter. My request was framed in the interests of those who are fighting for us by land and sea. This Bill has been framed in the interests of munition workers. Speaking for myself, they would not have interested me so much, because those workers, as all of us know, have largely increased wages, they are employed at home, and they can very well look after themselves. I join with practically everybody who has spoken in asking that the areas might be abolished, because I desire, at any rate, that the relief should come to our soldiers and our sailors. Within my own knowledge there is a case where a man has been a tenant for twelve years, steadily paying his rent for the same house, and his rent has been increased while he is at sea.
I am not going to talk about economics because I do not think this Bill could be defended at any time except in the case of the great emergency in which we are placed. Having said that, I desire to say something about the rentals. I do think that the line drawn is too severe in making it a pre-war standard. I suggest that some small increase might be allowed in the rentals upon the pre-war standard. The last speaker (Mr. Lambert) seemed to think that 6d. a week was an outrageous advance in rent. I do not agree with him. I would suggest that if at the date of the passing of this Bill there has been an increase of rent on the pre-war standard not exceeding 6d. a week, that that might fairly be allowed to the landlords. I say that for several reasons. It is an undoubted fact that in many districts rates have gone up. That is one consideration. It is an undoubted fact, also, that under the law of the land the owner of property of these rental values is liable to repair the property and keep it in repair. Nobody will deny that if he is called upon to do repairs it is almost inevitable during this War that the landlord will have to pay much more highly, not only for material, but for labour. I think, therefore, that some provision might be allowed in his favour in that respect. If we are faced, as some people think we are, and of course we cannot tell, with a very severe winter, and there is a great breakage of water-pipes, who is to come in and do the repairs? The landlord. In carrying out these repairs he will be faced with increased charges for materials and for labour, to say nothing of the internal decoration of the premises. That is his legal obligation under the Housing of the Working Classes Act (1899). I think, therefore, that the pre-war standard of rentals is too severe, and that some reasonable increase might be allowed.
This Bill is introduced substantially when the War has been in progress eighteen months. It is true that it deals with mortgages which have not yet been called in. That is to say, supposing there was an existing mortgage and the mortgagee had written to the tenant or the owner of the property and said, "If you do not increase this interest by 1 or 2 per cent. I shall call in my money," and the tenant or the owner has agreed to that; of course, that mortgage will be dealt with under this Bill. Supposing a case in which the owner has unfortunately received notice which has expired, and he has had to create a new mortgage with a wholly fresh mortgagee since the War began, he will not get any relief at all. He will be in the position of having to pay greater interest, because owing to the inducements of the higher rate of interest given by the War Loan or other investments, mortgage money is being called in. There will be a new mortgage created, and that new mortgage will not be touched by this Bill at all. On the contrary, the owner will be in the position of having to pay an increased rate of interest and he will get no relief. I think that some reasonable provision should be made to allow some small increases of rent upon the pre-war rents to meet that class of case. It seems to me that too much is given to one side and not enough is given to the other. I hope the President of the Local Government Board will give consideration to that.
With respect to the question of increases of rates, it seems to me, in my view of the law, that there is some misconception. In may view it is an occupier's charge; that is clear, and in the case of any tenancy which does not exceed the term of three months the tenant is always at liberty to deduct the rates which are there as rent, and so far that deduction is a good discharge for rent. Undoubtedly in many cases much of this property, particularly in country districts, and I dare say in London, is in composition. In London you can compound up to £20. In other great cities it varies, but I will not trouble to deal with the figures. In the provinces generally as distinguished from London the composition is £8. Many of these properties have come in for composition, and in those cases, by agreement, the owner becomes directly liable to pay the rates to the local authority, and he pays whether the properties are full or empty. The moment property exceeds in value £8 in the provinces or £20 in London it ceases to be in composition. I think it is an undoubted fact that the local authorities have, owing to the increases in rent, put up the rateable values of these properties, and the result is that you are taking these properties, by virtue of the increased rent, out of composition I suggest that in this Bill some provision should be made to enable or to require the rents of these properties, which will be reduced by this Bill, again to return into composition at the original assessment at which they stood before the War. It seems to me that that is only reasonable.
There is only one other point with which I wish to deal, and I think it is an oversight. It comes under Sub-section (4), of Clause 3, with regard to the question of mortgages. I observe that this Act is to "apply to every mortgage of real property," etc. I speak, of course, with due deference in the presence of the Solicitor-General, but my view of the law is that that would only apply to the case of the freehold. That would not touch the case of leasehold property which was mortgaged. As I understand the law a mortgage on leasehold property is personal property and not real property at all. Therefore, if you want to do entire justice you must clearly put in some words to cover a mortgage of leasehold property. Speaking from my own knowledge, which I admit is somewhat limited, I should say that in London the greater bulk of this property or, at any rate, a very large proportion of it, is leasehold property. It is most material that everybody should suffer by the same rule, which is a rule of emergency. I only justify it on the ground of emergency, and I would oppose it bitterly if it were not for the crisis. I am quite sure that if the Solicitor-General agrees with that view, or if inquiry is made into the matter, some Amendment will be introduced in the Bill to deal with it. It would be an unwarrantable hardship upon those who happened to be lessees of this kind of property that their mortgages should be raised, whereas in the case of the mortgagor of real property his rent cannot be raised. The President of the Local Government Board, in introducing the Bill, referred to this Sub-section and gave a reason why it should not apply to equitable mortgages, or charge by deposit of title deeds or otherwise. He said he understood that that was more in the sense of a ready-money transaction. I differ from him, because it is a very common form of transaction which arises very often without the intervention of the lawyer and his charges, which are not inconsiderable. It is often done. You deposit your letter with a stamp with the bank and it saves all the expense of a legal deed. I can see no good reason why these persons should not be as equally entitled to protection as anybody else. Why should not their mortgages and their interest remain as it is? Why should they be exposed to increases while the man who has got a mortgage in another form is not to be touched? I suggest that there ought to be one universal rule, and in that respect this Bill will require amendment. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will yield to the request that this Bill should be universal; but I hope he will not yield to the request that the standard of rents should be cut out. I can see on good reason for that. When you think that you are dealing in London with a property rental of 11s. a week, and in the country with a property rental of 8s. a week, it seems to me that you have gone quite far enough, and it is not desirable in the interests of the community largely to encumber the normal flow of business and trade. It might create serious difficulties in regard to the mortgages of large estates, which for various reasons have to be called in, to say that you can call nothing in and that you cannot deal with it. Such a thing would be exceedingly undesirable. This is an emergency measure. We know what has called it into existence—the large attraction of munition workers into towns. I think that in Dartford they are even occupying the workhouse. I trust that the measure will meet the need which has called it forth. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendments which I have suggested, and I trust that this Bill will become law.
The Debate which has taken place this afternoon has been thoroughly satisfactory to the Government, because all the speeches have been most friendly. Even the speeches of one or two of my hon. Friends who proceeded to discuss the Bill in detail ended with the assurance that the criticism was of a most friendly character, though it seemed to me that it partook of the kind of friendliness which we know is followed by the query, "Why did you kick me downstairs?" Yet there is no doubt that in no quarter, even where the difficulties of the Bill are specially more apparent to the hon. Members who examined it, is there any desire to minimise the need for it or to deny that it is an honest attempt to deal with a practical difficulty, or to ask the House of Commons to stop doing that which I think all are agreed must be done if the War is not to create a special and very hard grievance affecting a particular class. My hon. Friend who preceded me dealt in a very kind way with me. I thank him. He did ask some question some time ago, and I think that he gave a very abridged account to-night of the answer which I gave him then. I hope that he will strenuously refuse any invitation extended to him to afford information which will enable hon. Gentlemen on either side of the House to refer to the pages of the OFFICIAL REPORT. I admit that at the time the question was asked I was not aware that this grievance existed in any very general extent throughout the country. The hon. Member for Glasgow, on one occasion when I made an answer on this subject, reminded the House that he had raised it a year ago. I think he will agree with me that that was in reference to Scotland, and a particular part of Scotland. I do not think it will be gainsaid that in the rest of the country, particularly in England, this grievance has been a new one and one which came up rather quickly, though it is of course possible that it has been the result of a difficulty which began in Glasgow and assumed serious proportions there at a much earlier period of our history than it did elsewhere. Therefore I have that justification on behalf of the Government for our delay in dealing with this question.
In introducing this Bill, I said that I did not, on behalf of the Government, put it forward on what are called the economical or logical grounds, which are sought usually when legislation is introduced into the House of Commons. I notice in the Debates, which took place on the introduction and to-day that, while there has been a recognition that this Bill is not of that character, there has been an equal recognition of the need for it and the fact that though it is novel it is urgent. Therefore, it would be pure pedantry on the part of any Government or Parliament if they took refuge in any of these statements, such as that it is inconsistent with anything that has been done before, or that it is out of the question that we can break these recognised rules and depart from these recognised conditions in order to deal with a question of this kind. That would be an act of pure political pedantry at a time when, if we are to keep the nation united, we must examine alleged grievances and, if we find them to be well-founded, must deal with them not in accordance with some tradition good enough In peace time, but in accordance with the dictates of common sense, and with the general desire to remove all grievances, but especially those which press with special severity upon the poorer classes of the community. I think, no doubt, and it has not been contested at all in the Debates which have taken place that, in respect of a large portion of the wage-earning class their incomes have materially increased since the War broke out.
But while they may be able to bear this extra burden without serious difficulty, you cannot allow it to be imposed upon the strong shoulders without running the risk, indeed, without incurring the absolute certainty: for it is not a risk, that shoulders far weaker will have to bear the same burden. And therefore although it may be true, as some hon. Friends on both sides of the House admit, that the position of those who have to pay these rents is stronger probably than it has ever been before in their history as wage earners, yet side by side with them, and interspersed with them in large numbers, not necessarily in any particular area, are to be found people who share in none of these advantages of extra income, and yet have to bear the extra burden. This fact has not been gainsaid, and I say that in this there is sufficient justification for the measure which the Government have introduced. One other word on the general situation. I have been asked, in what we hear in debate and read in the newspapers, why is it that you are dealing with this question alone and with this part of it? My answer to that will not be satisfactory to those who ask for a complete settlement of all questions, but will be, I think, a satisfactory Parliamentary answer. It is that we are dealing, it is true, with a part only of a very difficult problem, but we are dealing with the part which appears to us to be the most urgent, which appears to us to press with the greatest harshness upon a class least able to bear a grievance of this kind, and if, in these Debates or any other Debates, it is shown, at this time of War when we are all bearing a common burden and sharing a common sorrow, and are all determined that, so far as possible, nobody shall exploit the War for his own personal benefit, that our legislation halts, that it is not wide enough or effective enough, I have not the smallest doubt that the Government will not fear to act in those cases and give the much-needed protection to people who can prove that they are suffering unjust or unfair treatment.
The criticisms that have been addressed upon the Bill to-day have been largely criticisms of detail which will find their proper place in Committee. Some of my hon. Friends on both sides of the House have asked me questions which are almost exclusively of a legal character. Such, for instance, was the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford University, who asked whether it was intended to include ground rents in the case of estates, where, on the determination of the ground tenancies, which probably have largely increased in value, there may be an increase in the ground rents? These cases do not come within this Bill. I think, so far as my information and that of those who advise me goes, that the language as it stands makes this clear, but in this case and in some others which I will, not refer to now, but which are legal questions and questions of interpretation of the Statute, we have taken note of the criticisms which have fallen from both sides of the House. We have the assistance of my right hon. Friends the Law Officers of the three countries, and between now and the Committee stage all those criticisms and suggestions will be examined by them, and if we find that the language of the Bill does not bear the interpretation which we are advised it does bear, or fails to carry out the object which we have in view, we will take care that Amendments are prepared to meet any of these difficulties.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that the ground landlords can increase the rent?
I mean that in the particular case where the ground lease expires and a new lease is given, the whole situation appears to us to be a different one from that which is dealt with in this Bill.
Is it intended that the ground rent of a house coming under the operation of this can or cannot be increased?
My hon. Friend opposite the Member for the University of Oxford asked a particular question in regard to ground rents, and I say that certainly the Government have no intention of including ground rents, which obviously, as everybody knows, are a totally different class of property in every, way from that which is dealt with here, and, if there is any technical or legal difficulty arising out of that, I would suggest that it should be dealt with in the Committee stage by an Amendment, or by a question addressed to my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General. I propose, in a few remarks which I am going to make, to deal with the general application of this measure to the country. Criticism has been general in regard to the procedure which we adopt. We have been asked: "Why do you proceed by Order in Council? Why have a population limit? Why have a limit of values?" And all these difficulties which arise whenever you impose limitations of any kind have been described very graphically by more than one speaker. Let me say at once the reason which led the Government to frame this legislation in this form. I remember a great many years ago, while I was occupying another post in the Government of that day, it was my duty to impose certain restrictions upon the country in order to stamp out a particular disease. My critics invariably said to me, "We agree entirely with what you are doing; we think your work is excellent, and we wish you God speed, but why do you not do it in a totally different way?" My answer then was the same as I make to-day. It did not appear to the Government, with the information before them, that you should treat the country differently from the way in which you treat the human body.
In other words, if you cut your finger you do not think it necessary to put sticking-plaster over the whole of your body. You content yourself with putting on enough sticking-plaster to cover the wound on your finger, or, it may be, on two or three fingers; but you would not go in for a garment of new sticking plaster because only one portion of the body is suffering. When we prepared this Bill we believed, and I would fain not abandon that belief altogether yet, that this trouble was to a large extent limited in its character. We did believe that there were large districts in the country which were-entirely free from the rent-raising difficulties and that therefore it would not be difficult for the Government to apply this legislation by Order in Council to the necessary areas. Some of the critics have said that this is a very clumsy procedure. Why the Order in Council is in itself the most drastic of all procedures. I do not know why it should be called clumsy. If it involved procedure, such as the Provisional Order, or any of the ordinary safeguards which are imposed in our private Bill legislation, I should have understood" that criticism. The Minister at the time? is responsible in this case-my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland, or my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary in Ireland, or myself. It would be our duty to recommend, for the respective counties, that His Majesty issue an Order in Council to apply to any particular area. We have only got to define the area to which the Order will apply, and I submit that once you accept the principle of partial application there is no justification for the criticism or the suggestion that the plan is clumsy, unworkable, or likely to be dilatory. The Government, however, have no special affection for this particular form of procedure.
This Debate and the previous Debate have both shown that there is evidence of a wider spread grievance than probably most of us had believed to be the case when we started to prepare this legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for one of the Wiltshire Divisions made a speech earlier in the evening in which he referred to the case of some cottages in a militarly district of Wiltshire. I do not want to pronounce an opinion in the House of Commons, where one is protected from some of the consequences of injudicious speech. I do not want to make a statement of which it could be fairly said that I ought not to have made it without having all the facts of the case before me. But in this case I think I have the facts before me. I have the justification of the owners of property who make the two-fold claim of the great and urgent demand for houses for the wives and families of officers living in the district, and they say that this accommodation can be provided by them. That I understand to be their case I do not think there is anything more to be said about it, except their natural claim that they have a right to do as they like with their own property. But how do they propose to acquire those cottages in order to let them to the officers or their wives or families. They only get them by turning out the labourers who have lived in them for years, who have paid a fair rent for them, and who if they are turned out have no other houses to which they can go. The alternative words which enable the Government to apply the Bill have been described by many critics as not being strong enough, and the view has been taken, I think erroneously, that they would lead to a very partial application.
Two reasons are given as justifying the application of the measure—one is the consequences of the War; the other the shortage of housing accommodation. I have been advised by men of all kinds, commercial men, bankers and lawyers and certainly at this moment, eighteen months after the War has begun, I do not believe there is any one of our obligations, nor any one of our operations of any kind which is not affected to a large extent by the fact that we are at war There is a shortage of housing accommodation. Does anyone of us think, with our knowledge of this country, whether urban or rural, that we are not at once bound to admit that this shortage of houses exists almost everywhere, and that it is at this moment, and has been for a long time, not only the gravest of our social problems but one most difficult to deal with. Some suggestions have been made to-day not only that we should extend this measure by removing all restrictions as to its application to areas, but make it of even wider application and of a more permanent character. I earnestly hope that those hon. Gentlemen, in whatever quarter of the House they may sit, who are really anxious to see the housing problem tackled successfully when this terrible shadow of war has passed away from us, will not advocate legislation which, if it were to be made the basis of legislation of a permanent character, would do more to check the provision of housing accommodation than anything else that could be possibly done by Parliament. The only justification for legislation of this kind is to meet the pressing evil of the moment. It is temporary in its character, and it is war legislation for a war difficulty. For that purpose we believe it to be sufficient, though, if adopted at other times, it would probably bring evils greater than those we are seeking to remove.
Therefore, I respectfully express the hope that nobody in his enthusiasm for the removal of this evil, from which a portion of the community is now suffering, will be led into making suggestions, for legislation of a kind that I am sure would affect the housing problem—the most difficult of all—more seriously than it would affect other questions of social reform, many of which have been familiar to us in this House for years, and many of which have been only partially settled and remain to be dealt with and removed before the condition of this country can be regarded by a careful student of its internal conditions as thoroughly satisfactory. The suggestion is that the Order in Council procedure should go, and that the Bill should apply generally. But the suggestion is also made that there should be no limit to the class of property to which the measure is applied. I am quite willing, on behalf of the Government, to promise to consider in the most friendly way, when we come to the Committee stage, an Amendment which shall have for its object the extension of the application of the Bill to the country generally, without this procedure which has been objected to. I hope that the House will adhere to the limitation as to the class of property affected, and even though it may be desired to make some suggestion in regard to the increase of the sum, I trust that if any such proposals are made, and the Government are asked to consider them in a friendly way, it will be realised, in regard to this limitation that any changes proposed in Committee should be such as would enable the Bill to deal with the difficulties which are proved to exist all over the country, and not make it of universal application, which would be peculiarly dangerous at a time like this, unless the evidence should be of a character which has not been produced before me in this Debate or on previous occasions.
With regard to the mortgage question, I have been asked why there is an exception made in regard to equitable and other mortgages in the latter part of the Bill. With very great respect I disagree with my hon. Friend in the view he takes of equitable mortgages. Surely it is true to say that there have always been two quite distinct kinds of mortgage-one which is called the private or permanent mortgage, and the other a charge or advance made, in nine cases out of ten, by a bank or similar institution to their clients in respect of property. The difference between these two kinds of mortgages has always been very real. In the one case the mortgage is more or less a permanent matter made for the convenience of both sides- the one who lends the money because investment is undisturbed for a long period of time. As a matter of practice, I think it has been proved that these mortgages are for long periods of years, and that the interest is very seldom varied at all. In the other case, that of equitable and other mortgages or advances, they stand on a different footing altogether. They are loans made by institutions, and it is a perfectly understood thing by those who manage the institutions, and by the general public, that the whole principle underlying this business is that their cash shall be liquid and readily available, and, therefore the loans are only made for short periods. It is perfectly well understood that the interest is liable to be raised from time to time according to the state of the market. Therefore, there is a complete distinction to be drawn between the two classes of loans, and I venture to use on this matter words of caution similar to those which I uttered with regard to the general subject of housing.
7.0 P.M.
I have no doubt—and I have advised with my colleagues on this question—that, if we are to interfere with the rights of the owners of houses to increase the rents in order to meet charges upon them, it would obviously be an injustice if we did not also deal with the mortgagees who lend money to the owners of these houses and not allow them to raise the rate of interest during the War period. That, I think, is absolute justice. I said the other day, and I repeat it now, that this is a very difficult question. It has many roots which wander very far from the main stem, and unless the House is careful and cautious it might really, although with the best intentions, do infinitely more harm than good, and this mortgage question is an illustration of it. The whole of our trade and commerce in this country is carried on, not on cash principles but on credit principles—a great deal of it by money advanced by banking institutions; and if we do anything which strikes at the security of these great banking institutions we might bring the whole edifice down with a run, and do infinitely more harm to those who want houses at low rents and to those workers who want housing accommodation than we do good by dealing with the actual question of the rent itself. Therefore, I think in regard to these mortgages there is a distinction between the private mortgage and the equitable mortgage; they are of different kinds, and I believe it is necessary to make this distinction in the interests of the stability of our credit, and, consequently, the maintenance of our general flow of trade, industry, and commerce as a whole. I have been asked one or two minor questions. One was put by the hon. Member for the Eifion Division of Carnarvonshire (Mr. Ellis Davies) in regard to mortgages on small farms. If the Order in Council and the procedure which goes with it is to remain, then I take it that his difficulty will be met, but if not, and if he puts an Amendment on the Paper, I promise him that it will be carefully considered. My hon. Friend the Member for Marylebone (Mr. Boyton), and my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham (Mr. Hohler) both dealt with a very difficult question, where there has been an actual rise, not from the rate, but in the assessment, based on the letting value of the property on the prewar rental. It is said that we are now going to expose the owner to this great injustice, while he has to pay rates upon the higher assessment. That is a case which ought to be considered. It has only got to be stated to demonstrate the justice of it. I should be quite willing on the part of the Government to deal with it if a practical proposal were made, but so far I have not found a way out of the difficulty. Another case that has been raised was that in regard to building societies. I was not in the House, unfortunately, at the time, but a strong case was made on that point. Nobody appreciates that case more than I do. I have had the privilege of receiving deputations from building societies. I appreciate, I believe completely, the extent of the difficulty with which they are confronted. I have found it quite impossible to find a remedy in any words which we have been able to suggest up to the present. That and the rating question are two practical questions of difficulty. I can only hope, in one case, if we cannot protect them, that the owners will accept this small injustice, which they regard as a great one, as part of the burden which they have to bear as a consequence of the War. I do not pretend that it is not unjust, but I confess I do not see how it can be met, unless you are to establish tribunals, and if you once establish tribunals you would then have all the delay and all the difficulty, which are two of the things we want to avoid.
In connection with this subject it was suggested by the hon. Member who preceded me that you might take some fixed sum and allow that as an addition to the pre-war rent as just and fair, and sufficient to cover such questions as increase in the rates, or increase in the cost of repairs, or expenses due to the failure of tenants to perform covenants. Those and other matters, it was suggested, ought to be met by a certain additional increase of rent which might be allowed. That sounds not an unreasonable suggestion, but I appeal to the House whether it is not open to this great difficulty: The moment you put into a Bill that there is a particular sum which Parliament would regard as a fair addition to certain things you will find that that will become, not the maximum, but the minimum, and that everybody will put it on, and that thus you will be creating a difficulty really more serious than that which you anticipate at the moment and with which you are attempting to deal. I have only indicated in regard to these minor questions, the seriousness of which I fully appreciate, what are some of the difficulties which we have found in endeavouring to deal with them by Amendments to the phraseology of the Bill. Do not let the House think that I am here to say that we shut our ears to all these suggestions or that we take a rigid line from which nothing can make us depart. I do want the House to realise that we attach enormous importance to, at all events, the partial limitation of the application of this Bill. We are prepared to see the procedure altered if the House thinks that a different plan is better, and if we are satisfied that that can safely be adopted. We are quite open to suggestions in regard to some of the practical minor difficulties that have been suggested if words can be found to do so, and if we can avoid the erection of a tribunal before which all these cases would require to be taken. While these are very great difficulties, I do not pretend that they are insuperable. We shall be prepared to consider in the most friendly way any Amendments which are put down which are really intended to improve the Bill and to make it more workable and more generally applicable, and which are not aimed at its principles or which do not seek really to injure it or make it less beneficial than it would be at present.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is clear that he is prepared to accept an Amendment disposing of Clause 1, and that he will also accept an Amendment removing the limit of population?
I think the hon. Gentleman knows me well enough to know that I have sufficient caution not to pledge myself to accept an Amendment until I have seen it on the Paper, and knowing the hon. Gentleman's ingenuity in framing Amendments, I think it would be very rash on my part to give any such promise. All I can say is that if he puts his Amendments on the Paper, I promise him they shall be examined with all the respect and care to which I know they will be entitled. I would respectfully ask the House to bear in mind that we are not legislating now with a view to placing on the Statute Book some great Statute which is to be there for all time, and which is to be the foundation of our future laws in these respects. We are placing on the Statute Book a measure which is essentially temporary in its character, and which is to be limited to the time in which we are suffering certain social evils and difficulties, the outcome of the War. Therefore we have not the same reason for prolonged procedure in this House that we should other wise have.
I believe that the effect of this Bill will be quite as great, in what I may call its moral aspect, as from the actual procedure which it proposes to employ. I believe, if this Bill passes pretty rapidly through Parliament, that that moral effect will be very great. I do not, of course, suggest that hon. Gentlemen are not to be free to exercise their own ingenuity in suggesting Amendments, but I do respectfully desire to press upon them this view, which I believe to be well-founded. I refer to the effect that this Bill will have, if passed fairly rapidly into law, with the general approval of the House of Commons, in all quarters. I refer also to the effect it will have, if there is evidence that the more extreme men in this House who would like extreme procedure for dealing with rents have not sought to make this an opportunity to work out their own schemes, and if it be seen that the moderate men, the old Conservative men, who would like to see closer adherence to old procedure, have been willing to join hands with all other parties in the House in order to produce a measure which shall be effective, and therefore shall be prompt. I believe that will have a greater effect all over the country in preventing the unfair increase of rent, and of the interest on mortgages, and, above all, in preventing the most difficult thing of all to deal with—the question of eviction, to which reference was made earlier, and which it is almost impossible wholly to prevent. I believe if the country could learn that Parliament has realised that great injustice has been done to those least able to defend and to protect themselves, and is determined to deal with that question in an effective if temporary manner, that then this Bill will not be required in many districts, because people will realise that the mind of Parliament is made up, and they would see that Parliament has set an example and given a line to follow. I am not now thinking of my own Department, but of the lessening of the suffering of the poorer classes of the community, who are those for whom this Bill is mainly proposed. I am grateful to the House for the friendly way they have received the Bill. I sincerely hope, as the hon. Member for Glasgow said earlier in the Debate, that the rest of our Debate may proceed on similar lines, and that we may be successful in producing a measure which, though it may not be a model of all the laws on which our legislation has acted, yet will be a practical, honest attempt to deal, and deal satisfactorily, with an admitted evil.
I regret very much my absence during a large portion of this Debate, but I should be sorry if I had not this opportunity of congratulating my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board upon the general reception which this Bill has met. It is, of course, a new departure from the old practices and principles which have been pretty generally recognised in this connection. I wish to associate myself with what fell from the right hon. Gentleman when he said that the need for this Bill having been established, and the fact having been proved that it was urgent, that we should not refrain from dealing with the question of this urgent importance on the ground that it was a departure such as I have indicated. My right hon. Friend has, I think, made it fully clear to the House that any proposals of a reasonable character which are submitted during the Committee will meet with fair and unbiassed consideration on the part of the Government. There is nothing with which I more cordially agree than the language which the right hon. Gentleman used when he spoke of the shortage of houses as one of the great problems which will have sooner or later to be dealt with in this country. With those observations I most heartily agree. I hope that my right hon. Friend will meet with an equally fair reception in Committee, and that the Bill will rapidly become law.
I should not have risen but for the intervention I made during the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. I welcome this Bill as much as anyone in this House, and I am desirous that it may, in as short a period as possible, be placed on the Statute Book. Undoubtedly it is temporary legislation, and it does not embody those eternal principles, which we hope to see constantly in our legislation. Its object is to fix rents during the period of the War, and for six months afterwards. During that period, I understand, mortgagees are not to be entitled to increase their interest or to call in their mortgages, so as to enable them to invest their money in more profitable directions, and householders are not to have their rents increased in any way, but ground landlords, on the expiry of leases during this war period, are to be able to make any bargain they like in renewing leases, or in entering into fresh leases. Any legislation of this kind is sure not to bear equally on every individual; but why should a whole class have a privilege from which other classes are excluded? I am extremely concerned about this matter, because it seems to me that those who generally get privileges poured upon their shoulders will get them under this Bill, and other people will have to bear the hardship. I sincerely hope that before the Bill is put on the Statute Book the right hon. Gentleman will be willing to accept an Amendment making existing ground rents permanent during the period to which the Bill applies. The Bill is rendered necessary by a shortage of houses which everybody knows is artificial. Some of us on this side have pointed out again and again a simple method by which this shortage of houses might have been abolished years ago. If only land had been treated on a different line it would not have paid to hold it up against the building of houses. I will not go generally into that question; I will only point out that there are methods of a permanent character which, if they had been put into operation years ago, would have prevented this crisis from arising.
I am sorry the Bill is not general in its application. It is intended, in the first place, to protect munition workers. The crisis has arisen largely through the migration of munition workers from one district to another. But the munition worker is to-day the man who is the best off amongst the working classes. He is the man who could, better than anybody else, afford an increase in rent. Workers in many other trades have to put up with the old wages. In some cases there has been a decrease in wages. This war, which has brought abounding prosperity to munition workers and workers in trades connected with the production of munitions, has brought red ruin to many other industries in different parts of the country. Tenants belonging to those districts, whose wages have not been increased, and whose cost of living has equally gone up, surely require protection as much as those in the areas indicated in the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said that the difficulty did not arise in a number of these areas. If it does not, the application of the Bill would make no difference. It would inflict no hardship on people who are not guilty of the action which the Bill is intended to prevent. I feel certain that the selection of areas under the method proposed in the Bill will create ill-feeling in other areas where the cases, although they may not be numerous do exist. Individual grievances will arise which would be removed if the Bill were made of general application. If that were done I believe it would simplify the Bill, make it more acceptable throughout the country, and remove a sense of grievance which is otherwise bound to exist. I hope, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will be willing, on further consideration, to accept the suggestion that the Bill should be made universal throughout the country, and that he will not insist on the retention of the privilege which is apparently to be retained by the ground landlord, although it is to be taken away from the landlord and the mortgagee.
Last week when the Government stated that the Bill would apply to Ireland we on these benches congratulated ourselves upon having secured a concession for our own country. Having had further time to consider the Clauses of the Bill we find that our hopes are completely shattered by the inclusion of the population limit of 20,000. In Ireland, outside the cities of Dublin, Belfast, and Cork, the population of any of the towns is considerably less than 20,000, so that the Bill would be inoperative in any part of Ireland other than those cities. The hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Scanlan) stated a case which was not replied to in any way. He stated that in his town the population is 10,000. According to the Bill the town of Sligo would not come within its provisions. Landlords there would have permission to do what landlords in most progressive towns and cities will not be able to do. The rent Clause also makes the Bill practically useless as far as the city of Dublin is concerned. The £21 limit does not cover tenement property. It does not prevent tenement house-owners from increasing their rent by 1s. or 2s. a week. It has been admitted that in the city of Dublin over one-half of the population live in tenement houses which are a disgrace to any city, but it is no fault of ours. None of these people will be covered under the Bill. I had a case only a fortnight ago where the rent of a cottage let at 4s. a week was raised by 1s. on a working man earning only 17s. Under the Bill there is no provision to meet such a case. Last week there was a meeting of the Town Tenants' League of Ireland, of which I am a member, attended by delegates from all parts of the country, when it was decided that the Bill, unless the rent and population Clauses were removed, would be absolutely useless and inoperative in our country. I hope that between now and the final stage the right hon. Gentleman will consider the case made by the hon. Member for Sligo, and make the Bill universal in its application.
I make no apology for saying a few words on this occasion, as since last Thursday I have learnt a great deal about the Bill. I have had a mass of communications from private people and associations in Birmingham, Hartlepool, and other large towns, all bearing on the subject of this Bill. As on Thursday last I was almost the solitary opponent of the measure, I expected that these communications would be condemning me. On the contrary, every one of them condemned the Bill and supported me. Therefore I think there must be a great amount of discontent caused by the proposed legislation—a greater amount than is thought likely by those responsible for the Bill. In the course of the Debate, although exceptions have been brought forward, it has not been shown that there has been any general increase of rents in the country. Inquiries by Government Departments will show that there has been no such general increase Therefore, as the only excuse for this legislation is emergency, I submit that emergency has not been proved. I know it is an article of faith amongst Members of this House that tenants of the class of property affected should have, not only high wages and war bonuses, but cheap houses. As those who are to supply these cheap houses are amongst the saving and thrifty of the working classes themselves, and in almost all cases they are small men financially, is it to be wondered at that it should be considered desirable on national grounds seriously to depreciate the value of a vast amount of property, to stop the erection of any more such property, and to cripple the resources of that class of people who at their own risk and cost have supplied this great necessity in growing towns and have of recent years lost seriously by their enterprise. I am aware that this poorer class of house-owner has not the ear or sympathy of this House, but I think I ought to remind the House that it was this class of owner who was very seriously injured by the legislation of 1909, when the unjust system of taxation which is still on the Statute Book was brought into being. It is as a protest against the bullying by legislation of this particular class of property owner that I object to this Bill, and it is with great regret—because I should with on every occasion to follow the right hon. Gentleman who introduced it—that I am unable now to support it.
I should like to offer my sincere congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman on the way in which he has spoken this afternoon, and on the way in which the Bill has been received. The House will be glad to know that since the introduction of the Bill last week several landlords in a very large way have notified their tenants that the ejectment orders have been recalled, and that the money the tenants have paid over and above the ordinary rent can be had back on application to the office. That goes to show that the Bill even before it becomes law is having a good effect, and that it will have a good effect on people generally up and down the country. If we had been considering this matter from the standpoint of ordinary legislation, I do not think there is a man in the House who would have had the courage to get up and champion a Bill of this sort. Whilst I am prepared to give it general support, there are one or two points in respect of which I think it might be improved. One thing I am not quite sure about is whether, when a tenant has regularly paid his rent and fulfilled all the essential obligations under his agreement, the landlord will have the right to turn him out and let the house to a new tenant at a higher rent. That is a matter to which possibly the right hon. Gentleman has given some consideration, and when the Bill gets into Committee we may understand that point very much better than we do to-day. If that point is dealt with it will also protect the purchaser who buys his house for his own occupation. I am in hearty agreement with the idea that the areas should be extended, and that there should be no limit so far as the United Kingdom is concerned. The area of population at present is too great to make the Bill a success. We are often reminded in this House, and by the letters that hon. Members receive daily in regard to this question, of the value that owners place upon their property. If we were in a position to take the owners at their word and purchase the property at the value they set upon it in some of their letters, there is not much doubt that many of us would be able to make good, sound investments. When one proceeds to ask the landlord to part with his property at the value he states in his letter he replies at once that it is not convenient, and that he cannot part with it just then; it will pay better later on.
If in this Bill mortgages are dealt with in the way the right hon. Gentleman has foreshadowed, it will prove a blessing to many a small property owner, to the widow we often hear so much about, to the little propertied man who has one, two, or three cottages on mortgage away in the country. If these Amendments or suggestions are accepted by the right hon. Gentleman he will be wise, for the time of the House will be saved, the time of the country, the temper also of many hon. Members would be lessened, their irritability in many cases would cease, and they would be able very often to get home before the darkness of night came on. I think we may agree that the rentals should be £40 instead of £30. That would cover the man in many industrial districts who pays 14s. or 15s. a week, the class of workman who will be left outside if the rate is to be £30. Surely that man in an industrial centre is worth some consideration. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that in the provinces he should extend, the limit from £21 to £30. This would bring in a class of people who in my opinion otherwise will be left out. Another point that I am not sure personally about is whether or not the landlord will have the power to get rid of a tenant if that tenant carries out his obligations. Supposing he wants the House seeing that this Bill has prevented him raising his rent, will he be able to tarn out the tenant and get in a new tenant at an increased rental? That is a point which is causing a good deal of concern. Possibly when the House goes into Committee on the Bill we, who are trying to understand its Clauses, will get information on points that we are inquiring about that will put us in the right way.
Some people imagine that wealth is the greatest asset that any nation can possess; otherwise I do not think many landlords would have attempted to put their rents up in the way they have done. Personally I consider the greatest asset any nation can possess is a happy and contented people. That outweighs all the money; and if this Bill is put upon the Statute Book to make it impossible that rent should be raised while the War is on, I think we shall do a lot to help to make our people happy and contented during the season which is before us. It is a fair and wise decision that this Bill should not be limited to munitions areas. From up and down the country one has received scores of letters from places where possibly not fifty munition workers are living. That is one point which has to be considered. There is no doubt the avowed aim and end of those who have been raising their rents was to pass on to the tenant their burden of war expenses while the War was on. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether 100,000 is not too large an area in which this Bill has to be worked. I appeal to him that that may be obliterated, and that the Bill may become universal without any restriction of population. I have before me a case of an agricultural labourer in Surrey who has just had his rent doubled. For close upon forty years this man regularly paid to his landlord an annual rent of £6 for his cottage. Long ago the original cost of that cottage has been paid. Now a clergyman sends a notice to say that this labourer has to pay £12 a year. That is how certain people show their patriotism, by bleeding the poor agricultural labourer. That case is only one of many that could be quoted.
I trust the House in its wisdom, when it deals with this Bill in Committee, will not consider it unwise that a Bill of this kind should have been brought in when we produce evidence to show increases of rent. Rents of 5s. weekly have been put up to 10s., and rents of 6s. have been put up to 12s. No one in this House, landlord or no landlord, can surely in any way uphold that extortion. As for the great mass of our population, I believe that they will welcome this measure, and will rejoice that at last someone in the House of Commons has listened to the voice of reason and to the cry of the people. We are often told here that the working classes are always being legislated for. Assume that to be true; the rich are well able to look after themselves. The great men of the country, with their interests, are quite capable of looking after those interests. They see when things are shared out that they get their bit. They see that there is no dearth of great houses. Hundreds and thousands of small houses would have been built long ago if it had not been for red tape, that bars and blocks legislation whenever the question of industrial dwellings comes before this House for the passing of a Bill. I support this Bill on the ground that it is only an emergency Bill; on the ground that it is only going to last while the War is on, and that when the War finishes it will not remain on the Statute Book for more than six months. If this Bill were a Bill for permanence I should not under any circumstances have anything to do with it, because I do not believe the landlords and tenants of this country would have any need to quarrel or find fault with each other, or that any landlord would have suggested raising his rent if it had not been by reason of the War.
There are just one or two things I want to say which cannot be said in Committee. I do not think, from what I have heard, that one case at least has been already mentioned. The first remark I am led to make is that this Debate, following the introduction of this measure, is a signification of very, very much. It illustrates very strikingly the disruptive and disintegrating effect of the War, and I think those who harbour the comforting thought that this is virtually a temporary measure, temporary in its entirety, temporary in its acceptance of a principle, are hugging a delusion which they are certain to find is a delusion before they are many years older. I am in favour of this Bill throughout, and I am saying what I am saying because I am moved by a considerable sense of satisfaction as I regard the past characters and story of the sponsors of this measure. Let me for a moment direct the attention of the House to these Gentlemen. There is the President of the Local Government Board, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave), the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Fulham (Mr. Hayes Fisher), and—strangest of all—that sturdy, long-lingering spokesman of a by-gone time and a by-gone influence, our deeply respected fellow Member the right hon. Gentleman who sits for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin). These have been and are the official sponsors of this measure. Perhaps in a minute or two I shall be able to include the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London?
No!
At any rate the hon. Baronet, with the hon. Member on my left (Sir J. Rolleston), will be among the few voices crying in the face of this hopeful prospect! The principle embodied in this Bill is not of the same character as that which distinguishes the principles motiving the bulk of emergency, post-war measures. It is a breaking through the whole of the rules governing private property. It is an invasion of many legal rights hitherto enjoyed. The sole reason for it—a reason which, in my view, is adequate and sufficient—is the interest of the people whom the Bill proposes to help. Those who hug the delusion that this principle will be temporary in its application might have regard to this fact, that you will not have this Bill in operation in a few places; it will not be operative for a few hundred houses. It will be operative for many towns and districts. It will be operative, protectively operative, for thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of tenancies, and those who will have seen it in operation, and those who will have benefited by its operation—make no doubt about it!—will never forget the lesson. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who sit upon the Front Bench, and who are the sponsors of this measure, will have to their dying day the credit of feeling that they moved with the stream of tendency and influence; and while some of us will rejoice in that influence, it must, perhaps, while their present general opinions endure, be already a comforting reflection in the minds of those hon. and right hon. Gentlemen. We have broken away in this measure from many preconceptions. We may be sure of this, that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board is committed to this principle, that, granted an appeal can be made to sufficient interests, he is prepared or he sees no objection to the admission of a fair-rent course of legislation. He was possibly conscious of that in his concluding remarks this afternoon. He referred to his previous record in the House, and he said, trying to dismiss the peril, as he regards it, although I do not, that he foresaw it was no use being bound up with political pedantry. He also referred to his action with regard to past legislation which stamped hydrophobia out of this country and for which everyone is grateful to him. Support of this measure is not political pedantry. It is being supported on all the benches of this House because there is not a man hardly who dares get up in this House and say a word against it, whatever he may feel.
dissented.
I do not doubt that in the entrenched and well-fortified position which the hon. Baronet occupies he may, few amongst the faithful, still be able to lift up his voice. This is urged as an emergency measure. The War is not the last emergency that will come upon this country. After the War those who are judges of the probability of things tell us there will be a long, acute period of commercial depression set in, and then you will have the working classes of the country, who are to-day not quite as thrifty as we would like them to be in this time of prosperity, pressing their leaders and making it a condition of their support by saying, "You did it before. When our income and wages were high you gave us relief and protection against the raising of our rent. You have that power, and you have shown yourselves able to use it. Another emergency has arisen, and we call upon you to exercise on our behalf that power which is latent in Parliament in these times of stress and poverty." And it would take all the ingenuity of the Solicitor-General, and the ingenuity of those who support him, to get away from that argument, and even although he might be able to build up, at all events, a substantial argument against the recrudescence of legislation of this kind, I am bound to say I feel the electoral influences might be too strong for him. So we are marching along the line that will make for the liberation of the people from many hardships under which they now labour.
Let me say frankly here, as one who knows something about the housing problem of London, having had opportunities of studying it, that this problem does not arise simply because of the War. The shortage of houses is not due to the War. It is due to the fact that a total change has come over the building operations in London. Instead, as some Members suggested earlier in the Debate, of it being profitable to invest money on mortgage, millions of money have been lost in the London district in the last twenty-five years in mortgages ill-placed. Values have gone down enormously, and I could point to districts wherein well-maintained houses are being sold to-day at one-third of their original cost, although the neighbourhoods to all outward appearance have not deteriorated, but in many cases have improved. That and a number of other considerations are operative to the extent of making this trouble and difficulty become more apparent. Those same causes will be at work all through this War, only with greater rapidity and with greater force, and they will exercise their influence years after the War is past. They will be helped in the clamour they make to this House for assistance. They will be helped by the undoubted unemployment and misery that will follow, and those who voice the needs of the labouring people of the country in the years to come will point to the introduction of this measure and the support given to it by those who, when we had politics, were stout supporters of the Tory tradition. They will point to this and say, "You could not resist our appeal in the years gone by, and how much less fairly and equitably can you resist it now?"
So I take this Bill as an admission of a real difficulty and hardship. I take it as an honest endeavour to relieve and adjust that hardship. I shall give it my support through and through. I congratulate the President of the Local Government Board in that he has brought this to us. I look forward to this clumsy measure—for so it is in many of its details—being the first step towards ameliorative legislative enactments which will make the homes of the people lower in their cost, more liveable and enjoyable in their provision, and will realise more fully to those who labour that this House has a close and an intimate, and even an affectionate, regard for the question of the people.
I hope that the speech which the hon. Gentleman has just delivered will sink into the minds of my right hon. Friends opposite. My right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board was in the House for a short time, but as I suppose he was not very pleased with the remarks of the hon. Member he is gone. I am rather afraid that we are really, under the guise of doing something for somebody, who, I venture to say, in the majority of cases do not need it, taking help not our of our own pockets but out of the pocket of somebody else, under the guise of desiring to make the homes of the people liveable, and all the sort of thing we hear on the platform, and which possibly may gain votes in certain places. Having listened to all that, it may be quite true that later on we shall have the same sort of speeches, when we shall be told, after the War is over, it will be necessary to make people's homes different, always at the expense of somebody else, and at the expense of sombody who invested his money under the belief that he would have the right to sell that for what he could get, just the same as the hon. Member below the Gangway has the right to sell what he produces at the best price he can get. That being so, I think it is quite clear that the House of Commons, as I ventured to say when I spoke on the First Reading of the Bill, has entered upon a very slippery course. I have not heard all the speeches, but I have heard a great number, and, with one or two exceptions, they have all said it is a bad Bill. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley pointed out all the defects of the Bill, but he came to a very lame and impotent conclusion because, after making a very excellent speech against the Bill, he finished up by saying he was going to support it, and that has been the case with the majority of Members who have spoken.
I have had an extraordinary number of letters during the last day or two pointing out the hardships of this Bill. The majority say that the rents, where they have been raised, have been raised from about 6d. to 1s. a week, and that in a large number of cases the wages of the workmen have been raised, not 6d. or 1s. a week, but sums varying from 5s. to £2 and £3 a week. One letter gave me a case in which workmen have been in the habit of receiving from 35s. to 40s. a week and are now getting from £5 to £8, and where women in the same town who have been in the habit of receiving 15s. or 16s. a week are now getting from 30s. to 35s. These are the very people, whose increase of wages has done a great deal to necessitate the raising of the rent, who are objecting to a small increase of 6d. or 1s. a week in rent. I have here a letter written to me by the Birmingham and District Trades and Property Association. They are, so far as I know, a. respectable association, whose opinions-ought to be considered, and whose statements, so far as I know, are accurate. They say that the cost of repairs and maintenance has increased by at least 35 per cent. Why is that? That is because the wages have increased. The hon. Member below the Gangway shakes his head, but he is indulging in a very serious fallacy which is entertained, I am sorry to say, by the great majority of the working classes. They think that if they can force up wages by trade union action, by strikes and other things, they are benefiting themselves. That would be quite true if one particular class of workman could force up their wages. I will take, for example, the miners. If the miners could force up their wages to £5 or £10 a week, or whatever the sum might be, provided no one else's wages were raised, they would gain, because they would buy the productions of other workers at the same rate as before. But if everyone's wages are to be increased the natural result follows that the cost of everything is increased, and in the end no one is any the better off, because there is a large increase in the cost of everything they have to buy.
8.0 P.M.
Everyone has been allowed to do this It is very foolish and silly, but everyone has been allowed to do it, and now we come down to one particular class who are not to be allowed to do it. Yet this class has been exceptionally hit by the rise in the cost of materials and by the rise in the cost of wages. The former is also owing to the rise in wages. I have pointed out that the cost of repairs and maintenance have increased by at least 35 per cent. Then, my correspondents inform me, the water rates in Birmingham have increased so as to bring in another £45,000 a year. That has all to be paid by the landlord. In addition to that, we know perfectly well that a very large number of municipal employés are agitating for an increase in wages. All that comes out of the rates, and all that is borne by the landlord; and yet the landlord is not to be allowed to pass on any of that to the people who are really getting the advantage of it. The more you think of the Bill the more indefensible it is. In addition to that, there is the question of the increase in the rate of mortgages. Now the hon. Member for Sheffield said a mortgagee was in a better position than the investor in a gilt-edged security. He said, "Take the investor in a railway preference or debenture." I interrupted him, because I never heard such a very foolish argument advanced in this House. There is no analogy between the holder of a gilt-edged investment and a mortgagee. Take the case of a railway, because the hon. Member instanced it. A railway debenture is a perpetual security, and is not redeemable at all unless the company goes into liquidation, and is at a fixed rate of interest. It is really an annuity. It is the same as Consols, in which there is a promise to pay a certain sum. In the majority of cases railway debentures used to be 4 per cent., but afterwards went down to 3½ per cent. It is an obligation to pay £4, £3, or whatever the sum may be, per annum. The mortgagee is in a different position. He has advanced money for a limited period at a certain rate of interest, and both parties can terminate the arrangement at the end of the period, and require either a reduction or an increase in the interest. When money was cheap the mortgagor exercised that power, and said, "I will terminate the arrangement unless you reduce the interest." Now that the boot is on the other foot this House is asked to say, "The mortgagee is not to have the advantage which was previously given to the mortgagor." I never heard of a more unfair thing. If the hon. Member for Sheffield had used his illustration with regard to Treasury Bills he would have been right, but I have yet to learn that where a railway company has borrowed money, say, for three, four, or five years at 4 per cent., anyone will come forward and claim that at the expiration of that time if money is worth 5 per cent., an Act should be passed to compel anyone to lend the money at a rate below the market value, which is what this Bill is doing. There is no excuse for such a thing under any circumstances whatever. Although I do not think there is going to be any deviation or amelioration of the Bill, if there is to be any fairness in the measure, some sort of an Amendment should be put in which would provide that the landlord should receive a certain rent which would give him a certain interest on his money.
A very large number of people for a long time have been getting very little interest on their money on this class of property, and they are now getting 5 per cent. or 6 per cent. which is not at all unreasonable for property of that sort. Consequently I intend to move an Amendment in Committee that this Bill shall not apply where it can be shewn that the net income of the landlord is not more than 6 per cent. After all, landlords have got to live. Hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway look upon landlords as people who never have to buy anything or pay the increased cost of meat or bread, and they look upon him as a person who is not entitled to any sympathy. It must be remembered that a large number of these so-called landlords have invested—I think very foolishly—their money in a kind of property which the House of Commons can get hold of. That is one Amendment which I shall propose, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will think over my proposal. Another Amendment I shall suggest is that where the rent has not been increased by more than 6d. a week that that case shall be exempted from the operation of the Bill. I do not quite understand what the £40 mentioned in the Bill means. I understand that no house, the net rental of which is over £30, is included, but there is something in the Clause about £40. That point seems tome to be rather vague, and I hope it will be made clear during the Committee stage, because whether we are opposed to the Bill or not, we do not want litigation. We want the Bill to be made as fair as possible, and it does not seem very clear on the point I have raised. I do not want to say anything more, and I do not think I should have got up at all but for the challenge of the hon. Member below the Gangway (Sir W. Essex), who seemed to infer that there was no one here who would dare to say anything that is unpopular in regard to this measure.
I particularly made an exception in the case of the hon. Baronet.
I remember when I was the Member for Peckham I never hesitated to say what I thought right, and I am not sure that it did not pay. I regret very much that the President of the Local Government Board has put his name to such an extremely bad measure.
I wish to present to the House for consideration the case of a number of people in my Constituency. In Lancaster, owing to the sudden and unexpected closing of a large wagon works nine years ago, some hundreds of houses, amounting I am told to nearly 1,000, suddenly became empty. As a consequence, in a town of 45,000 population, the rents fell immediately, and there was a tremendous slump in the value of cottage and other property consequent upon that. During the last few years there has remained a very large number of empty houses. Within the last few weeks, the Munitions Department, through Messrs. Vickers, are erecting large works in the immediate vicinity of the town, and this firm has become tenants of some 500 houses which were standing empty at rents that at any rate are satisfactory in the view of the general cottage property owners of the town. Owing to the fact that so many houses were empty, it will easily be understood that a non-economic rent held, generally speaking, during the past few years, and during those years the property owners desire me to point out the rates have increased considerably, and at the present time amount to something like 30 per cent. of the rental. The point that they ask me to present for the consideration of the House has been entirely anticipated by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). They ask that if the available income from these rentals might be held to be such a figure as would only allow them to receive 6 per cent. they would welcome such a rental upon the original capital value. I have no estimate of the capital value invested in the erection of these houses, and I may say that I am giving the view of the cottage property owners. They hold that through Messrs. Vickers, 500 of the empty houses are to be restored to a higher level of value than has been shown, and which would have taken place if they had been proposed to be kept on under other conditions. I am simply fulfilling the duty which I have been requested to fulfil as the representative of that constituency, and I present this claim, the facts of which have been forwarded to the Prime Minister and the President of the Local Government Board, and I ask that this matter may be considered before the next stage of the Bill.
I have risen to intervene in this Debate partly as the result of the challenge of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, in reference to what he considers my extreme Socialistic tendencies. In these days, if one calls himself a Socialist, he appears to be in somewhat distinguished company, because the whole tendency of the legislation of this House during the last year or so has been the most extreme kind of Socialism. When we find the State taking, over the banks, insurance, the railways, and transports, there is hardly anything, else for the Socialist to dream of. I was a little amused to hear certain hon. Members speak, for they appeared to have discovered quite recently that there is a dearth of housing accommodation. If my memory does not entirely deceive me, they were not so fully aware of the difficulties of housing on a former occasion, and they did not assist us in dealing with a perfectly bonâ fide effort we made for the provision of £1,000,000 to increase the present number of houses. With regard to the Bill itself, it is perfectly clear that the case for it must rest on the facts, and it has been shown that there are a very considerable number of cases of hardship where the rent has been raised unduly and unreasonably. That is the case for the Bill, and it must rest on that. Accepting those statements as I do, the only question we have to consider is the one raised here as to what is going to be the future of a measure of this kind in the difficult times which will undoubtedly come upon us after the War. I confess that I do not entertain the fear that animated the breast of the hon. Member for Stafford (Sir W. Essex), who began his remarks by saying that the Bill was a very dangerous one, and finished by making it even more dangerous because he said he was going to support it. The hon. Member said he did not like the Bill, because it was dealing with a very dangerous question, and in critical times after the War it would be so difficult to avoid having the same kind of arrangement made permanent. I can conceive cases in which something like a court might be necessary. Take the case where land has a monopoly value in an area around large towns which is not only temporary but where large works are conducted. There might conceivably be a case for a Court there, but I am not frightened with that prospect. It is inevitable that a measure of this kind can only be a temporary measure, because if you attempt to make it permanent, enforcing a rigid law, fixing the rate of interest and rents, uneconomic and below the standard, in investments of a similar character you. will inevitably prevent money going into that species of development, and, consequently, you would immensely aggravate the evil you are trying to deal with. Personally I have no fear of this becoming permanent in the sense that it will be mischievously permanent. As far as the facts have been brought to the notice of the House they seem to justify a case of emergency legislation, and I have not been inspired by the arguments of the protagonists of individualism that it will be a measure which will be fraught with danger in the future because it will be fastened on the body politic, or that we shall not deem it desirable to remove it.
I join in supporting this Bill and also in supporting the request for the removal of the arbitrary limitations. Assuming that in this Bill we are going on the principle of saying that the rent of small houses is not to be above that which it was before the War, there seems no reason whatever for these arbitrary limitations. On the ground of simplicity, I would support what has been said in favour of making the rule general. It is far better that this House should legislate directly than that it should legislate indirectly and leave that legislation to be carried into effect by Order in Council. We want this remedy to apply as from the time when the Act comes into operation, instead of having to wait for the comparatively slow machinery which brings into action the Order in Council. We have had no explanation how the Order in Council is to work. I quite agree that perhaps it is as well that should not be defined, but supposing representation is made from some locality that rents have gone up, and supposing the owners of houses in that locality say that they have not gone up, how is the question to be decided? Ultimately it will come to a long and protracted inquiry with an uncertain result. That is not what we want. We ought to deal boldly and directly with this question.
There is the further difficulty, which will be very great in many parts of Scotland, of saying exactly where the boundary line is to be drawn. According to the Bill the provisions of it would only apply to Royal, municipal, and police burghs in Scotland. In those burghs you would have the Act working on one side of an imaginery line, and you would have the Act not working on the other side. It would be a very serious matter in some of those places, and I would remind the House that it is in Glasgow and a number of the burghs of Scotland that this raising of rent has taken its most acute and severe form. The limits of rent are too low, and they ought to be raised. I fully appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman says about not going too far in this matter, but I seriously, think that he has not gone far enough, and that the rent limit ought to be raised so as to include all working-class dwellings.
Various representations have been made with regard to mortgagees who are either building societies or poor people. If we are to deal with the rent question, we must deal with the mortgage question as well. Everybody has admitted that the two go hand-in-hand, and if we once adopt that principle then I very respectfully submit that it should be carried out without respect of persons. It must be done whether the mortgagee is a rich man or whether he is a poor man, or whether the mortgagee is an investment, company or a building society. I put this view forward because I know that the other case for making special exceptions has been put forward, and has apparently had some effect on the mind of the President of the Local Government Board. I would like to see the matter extended still further, and I will give the House another case from Scotland. It is not necessary merely that this mortgage interest should be limited where the rent is limited, but it may have to be limited in other cases as well. I take the case of Grangemouth and Bo'ness. These ports in the Firth of Forth have been closed to shipping by Admiralty orders. The result is that people have left these places, that there are many empty houses, and that rents which prevailed before cannot now be obtained. Yet, in these places, as well as in others, there is an attempt to put up mortgage interest. If that is done, the practical result will be that the owners of small houses will be squeezed out altogether. I put that forward to show that this remedy, temporary as it is, should be adopted generally, without distinction of time and place.
I entirely agree with what has been said about the danger in carrying legislation of this kind too far, of deterring people from building and people from lending money on mortgage for building. We none of us put this measure forward on economic grounds. We put it forward simply as emergency legislation to deal with special cases which have become gravely aggravated since the War. The housing problem has been with us before. It will be with us long after the War, and it will ever continue to be with us until we go to its very fundamentals. Various causes of the difficulty have been put forward. We have been told of the great and increased cost of repairs which one hon. Member said amounted to something like 30 per cent. We have been told how increased taxation has pressed upon house building, and that is an outstanding feature of recent taxation. You have now, in addition to the other difficulties, practically the taxation of houses under Schedule B of the Income Tax. You have as well a steady rise in rates. Certain remedies have been put forward. My hon. Friend the Member for the Black-friars Division of Glasgow (Mr. Barnes) said that cheap money advanced by Parliament to local authorities was wanted. How that cheap money is to be obtained by Parliament, or by the local authorities, is not, to my mind, quite clear, but it is quite clear that the first step we have to take is to limit, to check, and to abolish as far as we possibly can this rating and taxation of houses, which is a penalty upon building in every part of the country. No sooner is a house put up than it is taxed and rated on a very high scale. No industry is so heavily rated and taxed as the building industry, and I suggest, when this present emergency is over and we go to the fundamentals of the question, that we should at least try to reform the Income Tax so as to relieve houses and other buildings from taxation as far as we possibly can. Another difficulty in the way of houses is that of obtaining the land on which to build them.
I do not think that we can have a general discussion on an emergency Bill as to what will happen after the War.
I thought, seeing that another hon. Member was entitled to refer to what might be done after the War, that I might be allowed similarly to put forward another matter, but, of course, I bow to your ruling. Until these matters are really fundamentally gone into we can never solve this question, and I do not believe that the provision of cheap money will solve the problem until the fundamentals themselves are rightly settled. There has been very considerable agitation in Scotland on this matter, and the agitation has been growing. I am glad that the subject has been taken in hand in this way, but I would remind the Government that, while they have support from all quarters of the House for this measure, they have that support for a temporary and emergency measure, and we hope that, in attempting to palliate the evil in its present aggravated form, they will not allow that palliation to blind them to its fundamental causes, and that they will ultimately have, in view a fundamental reform of those conditions, which have made the housing problem so acute a problem in our midst for so many years.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for to-morrow (Thursday)
Government War Obligations
Resolution reported,
"That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament and, if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund, of such sums as may be required for giving effect to obligations incurred for the purposes of the present War or in connection therewith, by or on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and for other purposes in relation thereto."
Resolution read a second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I beg to move, to leave out the words, "and if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund." The Resolution would then read: —
"That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of such sums as may be required," etc.
I move this Amendment, to which I attach considerable importance, because, unless it is accepted, the result will be to give the Government power to take money out of the Consolidated Fund, over which the House of Commons has no control. Yesterday the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord Robert Cecil) said he thought there should be a dictator to govern this country. I am not at all sure I do not agree with him. But I do not want twenty-one dictators, and unless these words come out we shall be giving to the Cabinet, which now, I believe, consists of twenty-one members—one holding two offices.
No; he was not in the Cabinet before he took the second office.
At any rate, there are twenty-one.
Twenty-two.
We need not go into that; it will be giving the Cabinet power we ought not to give them. The only control which the House of Commons now has over the Cabinet is control over Supply, and, if we leave out these words we shall maintain that control which I say ought to be maintained. I do not think the omission of the words will cause the Government to suffer any injury. Surely this House has shown that, if the Government desire money, it will be given it. Therefore, why put these words in? I have not had time to look up every precedent, but I believe these words are unusual; I do not remember ever having seen them put in before. I know perfectly well that certain expenses, such as the salaries of judges, are put on the Consolidated Fund, for the very reason that they do not come before Parliament, and, therefore, I say we ought not to allow these words to remain in this Resolution, seeing that they would allow the Government to do something over which Parliament has no control. The Chancellor of the Exchequer may say, "That is all very well, but when the Bill is brought in you will find there is nothing to object to in it." Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman says that, I shall be prepared to take his word, but that is not what should satisfy the House of Commons. These Resolutions were instituted in years gone by for a specific purpose and a specific object, which was to maintain the control of Parliament over the expenditure of money. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say he will not do certain things, and the Bill is going to be all right. But if we accept his proposal, and another Chancellor of the Exchequer comes into office, how are we to know that pledge is going to be carried out? We have got certain powers at the present moment, and we ought not to part with them on the statement of anybody that he is not going to do something which this gives him power to do. I am sorry there are so few Members in the House; this really is a very important question, and it is still more important in view of the fact that the Parliament Act has already taken away certain of our powers. This power ought to be in the hands of the House of Commons, and not merely in the hands of the Cabinet, who, after all, constitute but a very small minority of the House. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to meet me in any way; if not, I shall divide the House, that is all. I would point out that this is not the first time something of this sort has been attempted. It will be in the recollection of some hon. Members that, a year ago, there was a Loan Bill, and no limit was put in it. I came down to the House and pointed out, on the Report stage, the absence of the limit, and showed that the House of Commons had always refused to yield its power in that matter. The Government accepted my Amendment and a limit was put in. I am sorry to gather from the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman he is not going to accept my Amendment, and, as I attach such great importance to it, I shall have to divide the House.
I should like to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer the reason why these words are in. There is apparently no limit whatever, and I cannot help thinking that the Resolution has not been drafted with the rigidity that ought to be observed in these matters. I have risen to second the Amendment, and I am sorry the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not responded to the appeal of my hon. Friend.
I have indicated that I cannot accept this Amendment.
Does that mean that you will accept it in an altered form?
I will answer my hon. Friend presently.
I think there is much substance in the point put forward by my hon. Friend, and I should very much like to hear what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to say in regard to it. I will not, therefore, detain the House any longer.
This is not a Loan Bill; it is a War Obligations Bill. Precisely the same kind of Bill which the House passed last year. If he will turn to that Bill the hon. Baronet will see that, in renewing the measure, and in adding other items, it would be absolutely impossible to accept his Amendment. This Bill sanctions certain obligations the Government have entered into. It continues the War Obligations Bill of last year. These are obligations which the Government have already incurred. They have to be made good, and they must be made good, not merely out of money voted by Parliament, but out of the Consolidated Fund; otherwise we have not entered into the bargain. Does my hon. Friend not agree with me that what will happen will be this: When the Bill is introduced it will be found that it is in the same terms as the Bill of last year, and will only relate to obligations already entered into. We are asking Parliament to sanction those obligations.
May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the last words of the Resolution are:
"Incurred for the purpose of the present War, or in connection therewith, by or on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and for other purposes in relation thereto."
Those may be future purposes.
No, they would all be past obligations.
No, they may not.
I can assure the hon. Baronet that it will be so. They all relate to obligations incurred at the time of the passing of the Bill, therefore they will all be past obligations, and sanction is only asked for them. I appeal to the House, how is it possible to carry on a great War if the Government is not to be allowed to enter into a bargain. It will be the kind of thing which appeared in the last Act. What were the bargains or obligations for which the Government then sought to receive sanction? There was a provision to exempt from Stamp Duty and registration, documents carrying out war obligations. That was an arrangement which had to be made at the time for the purpose of carrying on the War. Then there was an obligation dealing with the powers of associations in respect of the insurance of ships or cargoes against war risks. If at every stage the Executive is to be held up and is not to be enabled to enter into bargains, all of which will be brought before Parliament in due course, it is absolutely impossible to administer at a time like this.
What has the Consolidated Fund to do with it?
The bargain is no bargain unless you make the Consolidated Fund liable. If it is a bargain which is only conditional upon the annual Vote of Parliament, there is no binding obligation between the two parties. The bargain itself will have to be brought before Parliament after it is made. If the bargain in every case has to be brought before Parliament before it is made, then this nation might well give up carrying on this War. If the Government is not to be trusted to enter into these obligations, get another Government, but do not imagines that you can carry on the War by attempting to control every act of the Government which may be necessary from moment to moment by debate or discussion in this House. It is absolutely impossible. Some of my hon. Friends sitting in this House now would be the first to declaim against a Government which had not the courage to take upon itself the responsibility for entering into necessary bargains. What are the kind of things for which we want sanction? There were air raids. In consequence of those air raids a great deal of damage-was done and some arrangements had to be entered into for insurance, compensation, and various other measures dealing; with the particular injuries done in those air raids. The Government entered into those obligations, and Parliament had full knowledge of them. Now we are asking for a War Obligations Bill which will sanction all the arrangements made. They are all past arrangements, and we are not entering into additional future liability covering the matter of the Consolidated Fund. We are not entering into any new liability at all under this Bill. We are not asking for leave to enter into any new liability, but we are asking for an indemnity for acts already done or which will be done at the time of the passing of the Bill. This is not the moment and we are not in a position to make a statement, but one of the things with which we shall have to deal will relate to arrangements for enabling American securities owned in this country to be placed temporarily, or otherwise, in the hands of the Government.
Is not that a prospective obligation?
No, the scheme will be in existence before the passing of this Bill.
Is it a voluntary scheme?
When this scheme comes forward, then will be the time to discuss it. The scheme will have to be an existing scheme. Unless it is an existing scheme before the passing of this Bill, and a scheme well within the knowledge of this House, then this Bill will not apply to it, and I shall have to come to the House for another indemnity.
That scheme has not been introduced. Therefore what I said is right, that this Resolution does apply to future dealings.
No, it will apply to nothing except what is sanctioned or done before the passing of the Bill. Unless the scheme is entered into and explained to the House before the passing of the Bill it will not come under this Bill. I will read now from last year's Act, the terms of which will be repeated in this Bill.
Cannot you give us this year's Bill?
Not until I am allowed to introduce it. This is a preliminary stage for the introduction of the Bill.
May I put this point to the right hon. Gentleman: The obligations under this arrangement have not yet been entered into; consequently, the obligations which will be included in the Bill will not be the obligations which are in the Resolution, and will not another Resolution be required?
The words of the Resolution are wide enough to cover a scheme which will be stated to the House on the Second Reading of the Bill, but I cannot introduce the Bill and I cannot state what the scheme is until I have leave to introduce the Bill. The first Section of the Act of last year reads as follows:—
"There shall be paid out of the money provided by Parliament or, if those moneys are insufficient, there shall be charged on and paid out of the Consolidated Fund "—
We are only following exactly the words in last year's Act—
"or the growing produce thereof, such sums as may be required for the purpose of giving effect to any such obligations incurred by or on behalf of His Majesty's Government before the passing of this Act as are set out in the Schedule to this Act (in this Act referred to as Government war obligations."
The indemnity being limited to the obligations incurred at the time of the passing of that Act, we have this year to introduce another Indemnity Bill, which again, in the same way, will be limited to an indemnity for obligations incurred at the time of the passing of the new Bill; and next year we shall have to introduce another Indemnity Bill. I have no doubt that in the course of this War many unforeseen emergencies will arise. The Government will have to act and enter into new obligations. I hope this explanation is sufficient to satisfy the hon. Baronet that this Bill has nothing whatever to do with the conduct of the Stuarts. It does not in any way infringe the rules of Parliament; we are not taking away the liberties of the subject, we are not receiving permission to enter into vast new liabilities, but we are asking for an indemnity for the liabilities already incurred, all of which will be set out in the Schedule to the Bill. If any new liabilities are incurred after the passing of the Bill, then we shall have to come to Parliament for a new Indemnity Bill. That is the whole explanation. It is very simple, and I hope sufficient to justify me in asking the House to allow us to have this Resolution.
I am glad the hon. Baronet raised this matter and, as I listened to him, I am bound to say he seemed to me to put a matter of very vital importance to the power of this House. But I am glad particularly that he raised it because it has had the effect of drawing from the right hon. Gentleman an explanation which completely satisfies me, because the indemnity asked for is an indemnity for obligations up to the passing of the Act, which will be introduced in Bill form very shortly, as I understood him. That is to say we are not sacrificing any of our powers, and I am bound to say in this period of war we are bound to place a considerable amount of power in the hands of those charged with the conduct of it. We have done it, and we must continue to do it, and as long as we keep proper constitutional control in the matter of finance, I am prepared to go on enlarging the powers of the Government so long as they prove worthy of it and go forward with their arrangements with spirit and courage. It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman has indicated that spirit and courage and energy, and inasmuch as he has not endeavoured to encroach on the rights of the House, and still, leaves in our hands proper financial control, I hope the authority of the House will now be given to the Resolution which he has put before us.
I am a little afraid that my right hon. Friend, in supporting his own Resolution on the Paper and in answering the hon. Baronet, has rather put himself into a position of difficulty. He undoubtedly gave a powerful answer to the hon. Baronet, if it has not put him beyond the bounds of order. It seems to me that if his point is effective against the hon. Baronet, he will be in very great difficulties when he introduces his Bill. I regret that when this was before the House in Committee the Government did not frankly say what it was about. I appealed to the Government Whips and asked for some explanation of the necessity of this Resolution and what it applied to. I had not the remotest notion myself, from the Notice on the Paper, that it was a Bill of Indemnity for all Acts of the Government. I thought it was simply brought in in order to enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to introduce his proposals relating to American securities, and it is a matter of astonishment to me to find that this will sanction a multitude of obligations. I suggest that if we pass the Report stage now it will limit him with regard to the consideration of his Bill. In regard to his scheme, I take this opportunity of congratulating him upon his foresight and upon his consideration of the public position, but at the same time the House knew nothing of it. I put down a question to my right hon. Friend in order to see if he could say what he intended to do with regard to American securities, and he asked the House to wait for the Second Reading of his Bill. When I saw this Resolution on the Paper I took it that this was to enable him to bring in some measure to deal with American securities. It is a very good scheme as far as it is adumbrated, but it is only a scheme within the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. It is not before this House. I know I am talking in the presence of an old Parliamentary hand, but I think if some one is, I will not say cantankerous, but loyal enough to the traditions of the House to challenge this on the Second Reading of the Bill, my right hon. Friend will be in a difficulty with the Speaker. If this is solely to authorise past obligations—and an appeal has been made to us to pass it on that ground—how can it apply to the scheme for American securities? The point taken by the hon. Baronet, I think, touched the spot when he asked about future obligations. I do not know how that difficulty is to be overcome. However, assuming that the right hon. Gentleman is right—and time will show whether this is a wasted Motion or not or an incomplete Motion—I want to ask frankly if this is the opportunity to raise such a question as the payment of a salary under these obligations?
The point we are now discussing is an Amendment to the Question proposed, and the Debate ought to be confined merely to the hon. Baronet's Amendment to leave out the words "Consolidated Fund."
It is on that that I want to put my question to you. I have been asking in the House with regard to the salary of Mr. Masterman.
That certainly does not come in here. There is nothing to do with this in the Resolution or in the Bill.
I am not putting that to you as a point of Order. I am rather asking you on a point of Order whether I may ask a question as to whether in any way Mr. Masterman's salary is included in this Resolution?
No, nothing at all.
I am much obliged for the answer. One must take every opportunity one can get, when the Government is trying to evade us, to put the matter to the proof. I should like to ask in what way the hon. Baronet's Amendment will cripple the Government. I understood my right hon. Friend to say the Government enters into a bargain during the War. To make that bargain binding the Act will intimate to the other contracting party that the Consolidated Fund is behind them. If they merely say that this House, or any Resolution it may pass, is behind them, that is not so firm a contract as saying that whether the House passes a given thing or not the Government contract will be carried out out of the Consolidated Fund by this Resolution. I am not quite sure that that should be done in this way. I have not the same familiarity with the procedure of the House as older Members. I have made a study of it now for five years on the spot, as well as some considerable time before I came. It seems to me that a Resolution like this, unless these words are deleted, is so wide as to include everything.
Past obligations.
So far as I know, the Consolidated Fund does not exist except for money provided by Parliament.
I will bring the matter to an issue by putting a definite question. Is the reason for these words being in that it gives the Government an opportunity to do things without coming to the House for which, if they were not in, they would have to come to the House to get sanction?
No, it has no effect of that sort. The bargain is made and the money has to be paid. It is one of those occasions when we have to make a bargain before we ask the sanction of the House. The Aircraft Insurance Scheme is an instance. They are all brought before Parliament in due course. The Government has to enter into a bargain, and a binding bargain with the other party to the contract. No bargain would be sufficiently binding for the other party unless it was insured upon the Consolidated Fund. You have to enter into an obligation. An obligation to pay if you get Parliamentary sanction is not an obligation. Consequently it is to assure the obligatory part of the contract that we ask for it to be payable out of the Consolidated Fund.
Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman will not proceed with this Bill unless he has already got the approval of the House to the American securities scheme?
I do not say that for a moment, but I do say that if I proceed with this Bill before I have got the scheme approved in respect to American securities, the American securities scheme will not be in the Bill, and I must come to Parliament for another Bill to indemnify me in regard to that.
I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, and I accept his assurance.
I am much obliged for the courtesy of the right hon. Gentleman, and I thank him for the pains he takes to meet our points. I want to ask now what is the meaning of our passing a Vote of Credit for £400,000,000 unless the Government are able to do things with it? When the Government asked for the Vote of Credit for £400,000,000 they surely did it in order that they could make all kinds of contracts for carrying on the War, and the House voted it with that object in view. Immediately we have done that, and long before the money is spent, the Government come here and ask for an indemnity in regard to war obligations. I hope I am not considered unreasonable in saying that after we have voted such a huge sum of money as £400,000,000, and after we have voted it so readily, it requires some explanation why we need now to vote money for the obligations of the Government.
This is not another money Vote. We shall pay for these things out of the Vote of Credit. We are not asking for money. We are asking for indemnity for bargains and contracts we have entered into. For instance, the insurance contracts scheme does not come under the Vote of Credit. It does not come under the terms of it. We find the money out of the Vote of Credit, but we are not authorised to do so.
Surely the Vote of Credit set out such a thing as insurance?
No, I do not think so. I do not think it mentions this scheme and its liabilities. We may be pretty sure that the draftsman is right in including in the Schedule of this Bill items of expenditure for which we must specially ask the authority of Parliament.
I think that I, and the House generally, have some grounds for complaint of the way in which this business has been managed by the Government. When this matter came before the Committee I wanted to get some explanation, but I was put off with the statement, "It will be more convenient to have it on the Second Reading of the Bill." I was foolish enough to accept that.
It is not true that I put the hon. Member off. I suggested to him that it would be more convenient, and these are the words he used: "If I can have the assurance that a full explanation will be made on the Second Reading I am perfectly satisfied."
9.0 P.M.
I accept the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman. It is quite correct. I do not want to complain of him, but I want rather to complain of myself and of the House for having accepted so readily the feeble explanations and excuses of the Government. I look upon the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) now as one of my cherished institutions in Parliament. I remember two months ago, when I used to be here at eleven o'clock at night to move Bills, that I regarded the hon. Baronet as one of the worst institutions of Parliament, because he was always here to block them. Now that he is standing up for the rights and privileges of this House, and especially of the control of this House over finance, which is the only remaining power we have in controlling the Government at this terribly anxious time, I feel indebted to the hon. Baronet, and I feel very much inclined to vote against the Government and against those whom I respect and value, if he goes to the length of putting his Amendment to a Division. It is very undesirable for us to give financial power to the Government to carry out a scheme that we have-not seen. We are giving the Chancellor of the Exchequer now the financial power to carry out a scheme which we do not know.
No, you are not.
Yes, we are.
My hon. Friend must not say that. This Resolution will not enable me to do anything except to bring in a Bill. If that scheme is not matured and complete before this Bill passes, this Bill will not authorise it.
That is one way of putting it, and I have no doubt it is all very satisfactory to the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but it means this, that when he brings his scheme forward it will be either take it or leave it.
It is the same in regard to most schemes.
No, it is not. A great many schemes come to this House and they are modified and improved. Hon. Members on both sides bring in to the common stock-pot what they have of brains and experience, and they are able even to add something to the great experience and abilities of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his coadjutors on the Front Bench. I entirely disapprove of this way of doing business. It is entirely foreign to the old traditions of Parliament, and it is foreign to the real liberties of the people of this realm. We want to support the Ministers of the Crown at this time, and if we think they are impeccable we want to support them even with a blind eye. I am afraid that I irritate the right hon. Gentleman a little. I have done so before, and I may have to do so again. Therefore I will only add this, that if I go into the Lobby with the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, I shall feel that I am possibly doing something that strikes at the feelings of the right hon. Gentleman, but I shall be doing a duty to my country and I shall be endeavouring to preserve the traditions of Parliament and the financial control of Parliament.
As I understand the right hon. Gentleman he says that a certain scheme has to come before Parliament. Am I right in assuming that this Resolution will enable him to do without a Money Resolution in regard to that scheme? Am I right in saying that if this Resolution passes and also the Bill to be based upon this Resolution, he will then be able to make his financial arrangements by taking sufficient money out of the Consolidated Fund, and that that will prevent him from coming before us with a Money Resolution for the scheme in question?
No, that is not so. I am asking for an indemnity for such contracts as I may have entered into before the passing of this Act. It has nothing to do with the avoidance of a Resolution. This is the Resolution now in which I am asking the House to give me an indemnity. If I do not get the indemnity, if the House says "No," then I suppose that I shall become personally responsible for all the obligations that I have entered into. Of course, I shall take it as an indication by the House that I am not to enter into any other obligations. But I should remind the House that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the midst of a great war is told that he is to conclude no bargains and enter into no contracts when the emergency requires it, then I do not think that any Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to carry on his business.
With the leave of the House, may I say that, after what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, I will not press the matter to a Division, because I understand that he has given certain assurances and made some statements as to what he is or is not going to do. But I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will understand that in asking leave to withdraw my Amendment I only do so because of the exceptional circumstances in. which we are placed, and it must be in no way taken as a precedent or as an indication by the House of Commons that this kind of procedure ought to be maintained. I am sorry that I cannot understand the allusion of the right hon. Gentleman to the necessity for the words "Consolidated Fund" to be left in. As I understood him, he said that that was an additional security. The Consolidated Fund is only a fund provided by moneys provided by Parliament. Therefore it is not an additional security at all; but in the circumstances I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question again proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman when the Bill will be introduced, and whether it will be introduced under the Ten Minutes' Rule, and when the Second Reading will be taken?
If the Resolution is passed now I shall introduce the Bill at once by walking up the House. I shall hope to have the Second Reading of the Bill at an early date, but I tell the House quite frankly that I shall not press on the Second Reading until I am in a position to make to the House a full statement of what it is proposed to do with regard to American securities. I am very pressed with business and with other Bills, and unless we get these Bills through stage by stage we shall not finish, as my right hon. Friend said on another occasion, until this time next year.
I am much obliged.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by Mr. McKenna, Sir John Simon, Mr. Runciman, and Mr. Montagu.
Government War Obligations (No. 2) Bill,—"to make provision with respect to obligations incurred by or on behalf of His Majesty's Government for the purposes of the present War or in connection therewith; and for other purposes in relation thereto." Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 164.]
Midwives (Scotland) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Certification.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I understand that this is the operative Clause of the Bill. Am I right in understanding that the object of the Bill mainly is to apply to Scotland legislation which already applies in England?
That is so.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 29 (inclusive) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without Amendment.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
Do I understand that this is all the business which the Government propose to take to-night?
Yes.
This Bill does not comply with the undertaking which the Government gave to the House not to take any measures except those which were connected with the War. It would, perhaps, be unreasonable for an English Member to delay legislation for Scotland merely on that ground. I just draw attention to it, because there has been quite a considerable number of Bills which perhaps in themselves are good relating solely to Scotland which have been kept going through the House. Why is a stream of Bills equally desirable not going through for England? The reason, I suppose, is that the Scottish representatives, and the Scottish Members of the Cabinet, are more wide awake than the dull Southerners. Again and again appeals have been been made to us to pass a Bill because it is good in itself, but the Prime Minister, on behalf of the Government, assured the House that Bills unconnected with the War would not be passed. That was when he took away the rights of private Members. I do not mind our Scottish Friends getting their little Bills, and I am not going to oppose this. But, after all, there is a country called England, and things quite as urgent for this country have been delayed because the Government announced that during the War they would take only emergency legislation. Therefore we are entitled to ask whether the Government have now decided to change their programme and introduce small measures which may be urgently needed. If so, I have one item to suggest to them relating to the Insurance Act, and I think that if there has been a change of policy it should be announced to the House.
I think that all Scottish Members are glad that the Secretary for Scotland has been able to adjust some small points on which opposition to this Bill lingered and at last to bring this Bill in, because opinion in Scotland is unanimous that it is very desirable to pass this Bill without further delay.
I am rather surprised at the plea put forward by the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) about this Bill. He said there was some truce introduced to do no business except in connection with the War.
I certainly did not say "truce," but that it was a Government announcement.
I do not know of any Government announcement. My recollection is that the Government undertook not to introduce or pass any legislation which was likely to be opposed by any considerable section of the House. As a simple matter of fact, there have been passed a number of Bills not at all connected with the War, but upon which all parties were agreed, and those Bills were passed without any great discussion upon them. There is a special reason why this Bill should be passed for Scotland, which probably my hon. Friend is not aware of. He says, or makes a sort of complaint, that Scottish Members are getting measures for Scotland while England is getting nothing. I would point out to him that the object of this Bill is to assimilate the law of Scotland to that of England, and I believe that I am right in saying that the general principle of this Bill, from line one to the last line of it, is simply a repetition of what is now the law of England. In Scotland we want to do away with Sairey Gamp, and we want to avoid the loss of life among women, thousands of them haying had their lives sacrificed owing to unskilful treatment. All parties in Scotland have agreed to the Bill, though it does not go so far as many of us would like it to go. It still contains the provision that a woman shall attend in childbirth provided that she does not habitually and for gain practise midwifery. Many of us think those words ought to be struck out of the Bill, because they might lead to a good deal of litigation; and we are only induced to support the Bill because in its present form it is non-controversial and has the assent, I believe, even of the genial Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). It is the smallest reform we can take in this matter.
I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Ponte-fract that Scottish Members gratefully acknowledge the manner in which their wishes have been met, and that the passing of this Bill will be strictly in conformity with the canons which have been laid down. The Bill is not only non-controversial, it is not only a Bill which takes no advantage of England, but it is a measure which merely applies the principle of the law, which has been for some years the law of England. It is in the strictest sense a measure which can be justified on the ground that it is an emergency measure, and that the circumstances of the country have rendered it desirable that it should be carried without any delay. The members of the Highlands and Islands Board, the Local Government Board of Scotland, the sanitary authorities, the heads of the medical profession, have all combined to assure me that it is important that this Bill should be carried, because, as my hon. Friend will recognise, there has been a great demand for members of the medical profession for war purposes, and it has been very difficult, in the poorer parts of Scotland, where large salaries cannot be afforded, to obtain a medical practitioner for every district. In this scarcity of medical practitioners, it is extremely desirable to obtain midwives with whom the authorities can be satisfied, and to see that capable people are provided, especially in the scattered Highland districts and in the Islands. With the support of the Highlands and Islands Board and the local authorities, they are entirely conclusive and satisfactory. I am glad to feel assured that this Bill satisfies all the standards of criticism. It is non-controversial, it takes no advantage of England, and it is required by the circumstances of the War.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
National Insurance Act (Administration)
Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER. (Mr. Whitley), pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
The suggestion has been made that the time has come when the National Insurance Act should be submitted to some sort of non-party review, and since this question was last brought forward in this House evidence has accumulated month by month in great volume which shows that the matter has become more clamant than ever. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Charles Roberts) who is in charge of this matter may dismiss from his mind that anything that I say is intended to be a hostile raid on the National Insurance Act. If I were actuated by feelings of hostility towards that Act I should say nothing; I should allow it to go on drifting, as it is drifting at present, for I feel it would destroy itself far more rapidly than anything that I or any Member of the House could possibly say to bring that about. I think that, in regard to the manner in which the hon. Gentleman has replied to a series of questions which I have addressed to him within the last ten days, I would be entitled to harbour a feeling of some resentment, but I entirely acquit him of the faintest desire to treat me or my questions with discourtesy. I think, however, that the sort of evasive answer which he has from time to time made to questions put by myself and by other Members of the House in regard to the Insurance Act would appear to show a very strange view of the relations which obtain between a Minister having part in the administration and the House of Commons. In giving these evasive answers, the hon. Gentleman has done much to conceal information which, in whole or in part, and for some reason I cannot pretend to fathom, he is unwilling to communicate to the House. We have often heard of a little animal called the cuttlefish. When the cuttlefish imagines itself in danger it escapes under cover of a cloud of black fluid, bamboozling its opponent, which cannot see where it has gone to. In a similar way when questions are asked of the hon. Gentleman involving some actuarial figures he pours over his unfortunate questioner's head potfuls of his black actuarial magic from Buckingham Gate, and under cover of that he seeks to escape. I am not in the least afraid of his Blue Books. I asked what I think was a quite legitimate question the other day as to whether he had received some actuarial advice and how his actuaries regarded those societies whose income was based on average premium or contribution prescribed by the Act, but whose expenditure and claims are based of necessity upon the under-average life of the classes of their members. In reply he referred me to half a dozen Blue Books. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I read all his Blue Books. I have no doubt he has read them too, but he seems to have forgotten the contents.
The original actuarial advice given to the Government contained I have no doubt a great deal of good actuarial advice. It was given by men whose names are sufficient guarantee of the goodness of the advice. I do not call that in question for a moment. I do, of course, call in question whether the Government acted on the advice or even properly understood it. I do not think they acted on it fully. In addition to the original advice, I would like to remind the hon. Gentleman of the later advice which the actuaries have given. One of the first remarks which his actuaries made in summing up the administration for a year was that some of the tables on which his premiums were based were "becoming obsolete." Another passage of the actuarial report which he will find on page 62 of the last Blue Book, where the actuaries are referring to the older friendly societies consisting of male members, is that— Passing to the subject of women, the language of the actuaries is a good deal more blunt and unpleasant. They say— lose. They would not sign anything so foolish. That is my honest opinion. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would be able to produce any certificate approaching that signed by those actuaries.
If there is in the root of the Act so much that is unsound and questionable, I do not think we can be surprised if in the fruit there is an equal amount of unsoundness. It is notorious that the question of women's lives is a source of very great trouble, and that there will be progressive deterioration unless it is brought to an end. The business for which the London Insurance Committee is responsible is notoriously in a state of partial chaos. Representations are pouring in on hon. Gentlemen, it is not too much to say, from day to day from men who are not hostile to the Act, but who are experienced in the administration of the Act, who originally made themselves responsible throughout the country for the administration of the Act, and who were, on the whole, men who had perhaps a slight bias in favour of the Act, certainly not against it. The condition of the sanatorium benefit is really one of partial paralysis. That is due to one or two causes. I do not say it is entirely due to the flaws in the system. I think it is partly due to the fact that the Local Government Board have stopped the expenditure of money. I desire to say a word as to some of the answers which the right hon. Gentleman has returned to me during the last week or two. I think every one of my questions was most legitimate, and that it will be very hard for the hon. Gentleman to maintain otherwise. What sort of answers have I got? I asked a question for information as to the amount of money paid to panel practitioners, and so on. That question was drafted in consultation, and there is no reason why I should not name the gentleman, with Mr. Wylie, of Kilmarnock, who is admitted to be one of the greatest working authorities of the Act in Scotland. It would be difficult, I think, to lay your hands on anyone who has been professionally responsible for working the Act in a populous district who is in a better position to draft a fair question to this House than Mr. Wylie. The question really embraced three or four applications for information, and the answer was a wholesale plea that the information really could not be given. I think it is most extraordinary that a request for not very complicated information could not be better met.
I come to another question, whether certain expenditure at Renfrew had worked out at £323 per patient? That request was parried by the hon. Gentleman, who, to say the least of it, did not appear to be anxious to discuss the matter or to come to close quarters on the question. Under pressure I extorted from the hon. Gentleman the admission that the figure was correct. What is this figure? It represents certain expenditure which the committee find themselves obliged by the terms of the Act to make and which they consider excessive. I do not want for the moment to discuss the question of the whole amount payable to any class of doctors, but I must say that it seems to me strange that anyone should seek to defend or perpetuate expenditure on this scale which the committee making it point out, without malice and without any interest in the matter, is really excessive. I cannot imagine that any of the doctors who get the money have any interest in perpetuating expenditure of this kind. If we are going to pay money to doctors— and we must—surely we should be anxious to make the payments to the doctors who do the work and not to the doctors who do not do it. What answer did I get to that question? I am told that— the surplus of certain approved societies against the deficits of others, which, of course, will be a necessary portion of the actuaries' work when the valuation comes to be made. What answer did I get? That the hon. Gentleman cannot accept the implication contained in the question. I do not think there is any implication in the question. There is certainly not any illegitimate implication. What I want to drive the hon. Gentleman up against is the facts of the case, but they are the last things he wishes to look in the face. If there is an implication it is one the hon. Gentleman cannot possibly seek to avoid facing, and the sooner he faces it the better.
My last question did contain a suggestion, and I agree that the hon. Gentleman is within his rights in meeting the suggestion or declining to do so. The suggestion was that in view of the prevalent fear as to the condition into which the Act has drifted, he should take some steps to collect and collate the skilled opinion of officials and committee who have been administering the Act for some years, with a view to placing it, by legislation or otherwise, upon a satisfactory basis. In the answer which the hon. Gentleman gave there is not a single word as to inquiry. He simply walked round the question. I do not use the word offensively, but it is the only word which describes the fact; I think he deliberately dodged the question. In contradistinction to that answer, I am glad to say that there was one question which the hon. Gentleman answered at considerable length, and, I think, quite fairly. I put a long question as to the position of the new suggested drug tariff in Scotland. When he gave me the answer, what did it show? I think it showed that serious trouble of the most gratuitous and unnecessary kind has been allowed to arise in Scotland. The result is you cannot at present read a Scottish newspaper without seeing that the chemists from one end of the country to the other simply decline to entertain certain proposals which the hon. Gentleman has put before them. I am not here to fight the chemists battle. It appears to me that they are not badly able to do that for themselves, as the hon. Gentleman will probably find out.
I do not wish to say anything on one side of the dispute or the other, but I will say that if I were a Scottish chemist I would feel extremely badly used by the Government. Because their position really comes to this: We have a Commission administering the Act in Scotland, yet I do not think it is too strong to say that at the end of a certain amount of discussion —it was inadequate, but I admit there was a certain amount of discussion—the hon. Gentleman and his advisers take up the position that they have arrived at a conclusion in the matter, that they have spoken, and that all that remains for the Scottish chemists to do is to listen. I do not know how the hon. Gentleman transacted business when he was legislating at the India Office for the comparatively mild Hindoo. I assure him that if he wants anything else but complete failure as the responsible administrator of this Act in Scotland he will require to turn over a new leaf, and I think he cannot do it too soon. No good purpose is to be served by stirring up unnecessary trouble at a time like this—trouble due not nearly so much to the substance of what the hon. Gentleman proposes as to the most indefensible manner in which he has brought his proposals forward. If the hon. Gentleman had been guided by the Scottish Commissioners nothing will make me believe that proposals of the kind would have been brought forward in this manner.
Passing from this matter, on one point the hon. Gentleman some months ago made a perfectly explicit statement. He referred to the amount of money available year by year by way of actually paid benefits to contributors. We cannot have a scheme like this without heavy expenses. The mere fact that the scheme is so complicated entails heavy expense. But I say that 67 per cent.—that is 13s. 6d. in the £—is a proportion of money returned to the people who pay the £1, which it is not unreasonable to scrutinise very closely. The general feeling is, I think, that it is too small, and that it could be increased not merely by economy, but by some alteration of the Act. There is certainly a widely prevalent feeling that working men who are made, whether they like it or not, to pay these premiums are not getting enough back out of the Act. The welfare of future generations, what will happen thirty years hence, and so on, does not appeal so convincingly to them as it does to the hon. Member. I think that in this matter the credit of the House of Commons is really at stake. It is not merely the reputation of this Minister or of that—although the Act has seriously damaged the financial reputation of two leading Ministers already. The credit of the hon. Gentleman is not, I think, at stake at all. The fact that a new Minister has been called in to take charge of the matter in the House has really many compensations, and I want to say what some of them are. I think in itself the fact that we have in charge of the Act a man whose reputation as Minister is not at stake is something for which to be thankful. I do not want to quote at any length the Act as it passed, but I will say this, that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer laid it down that not only the bulk of friendly societies, but that every friendly society, must be passed as sound before it could be guaranteed by the State. "We shall not," he said on another occasion, "work through any society which is not solvent." I do not think the hon. Member will say that he can guarantee that this promise has been applied to any society which was not solvent, and that beyond question it has ever been carried out.
It is understood that the Retrenchment Committee have had the operations of the Insurance Act under their consideration. In particular it has been rumoured in Scotland that the Government, on the advice of the Retrenchment Committee, thought of abolishing the Scottish Commission. As to that proposal, if the Government has a reasonable case, I shall be glad to hear and consider it. I think they will find it very difficult to prove that Sir James Leishman and his colleagues have not been at least as economical as the other Commissioners in the other parts of the Kingdom. But I am entirely against any feeling of unwillingness to listen to the Government's case; if there is anything in it to be examined, well and good! That question, however, like most questions in the Act, are really questions for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I do not think we can hear his voice on the Act as a whole a minute too soon. I think it is quite plain that unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer is prepared to commit the country to a very large Grant-in-Aid that insured persons may just as well give up the hope of receiving the full benefits which they had held out to them, and for which they were encouraged to hope. What I urge is that the present is really a good opportunity for beginning an inquiry which will necessarily consume a good deal of time, and which might proceed concurrently with the valuation, as to whither the Act is tending, and as to what shall be done to get it into a more healthy condition. I do not think that there is really any dispute in the House as to whether an inquiry is not due, but overdue; because, after all, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking nearly two years ago, said:—
Hear, hear!
On that point there is really no room for dispute. We all know why when February, 1915, came, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer said nothing about an inquiry; he was busy with the War. I admit we are still busy with the War.
But in view of the amount of time that this inquiry at the best will occupy, and the fact that at the present time it would be easy to appoint a Committee of this House which would consider the matter simply as a matter of business and not as one out of which party capital was sought, the time, I think, for bringing forward that suggestion is opportune in every sense of the word, and clamantly necessary. You cannot put these matters into cold storage, like so many of our disputes, because the position is going from bad to worse. I should have expected that the Government and the hon. Member would have been thankful of so good an opportunity afforded, when a reasonable and reasoning spirit was spread abroad in the House by the existence of the War, to introduce this inquiry. The hon. Member is throwing away a good opportunity, the best opportunity he or any of his colleagues have ever had; and it may be the last opportunity of instituting an inquiry which can be conducted in an atmosphere of complete coolness, reasonableness, and friendliness. If he thrusts it away, all I can say is that he is a worse friend to the Act than I thought he could be.
When the Act was passed the then Chancellor of the Exchequer made very strong statements as to the evil conditions with which it was intended to grapple. I quite agree. I do not think there is any dispute either as to the singleness of aim or as to the reckless haste with which the Act was passed. As to the evils, I agree. As to the better medical service, the need, it was admitted, was a most clamant one; but I really think it is being prejudiced at present by the way the Act is tending. Nothing will persuade me that experienced Civil Service officials like Sir Robert Morant, Sir. John Struthers, and Sir James Leishman, have not at their disposal a great fund of information which would enable a better state of matters to be brought about. In the meantime the cause of thrift and insurance is being greatly prejudiced by what is going on. I appeal to the Government and the hon. Member to be willing to lay aside any feeling in this matter, and to let us go forward together; let us make a united and a common effort to do something at least to correct the unnecessary blunders that have attended the passing of the Act, and that we all would willingly see taken out of the way. That is my suggestion.
I have no objection in the least to the hon. Member having raised these various points, if he thinks it may be advantageous to have a statement in this House on the many and far-reaching points to which he has referred. The matters to which he has drawn the attention of the House are, first of all, a personal matter relating to what he regards as my unsatisfactory method of answering those questions which he has been good enough to address to me.
I disclaim any personal feeling in the matter altogether!
I entirely accept that, that the hon. Member is not acting in any hostile spirit, though I think I may say he was a little hard on the method in. which I attempted to deal with his questions. Apart from that, he asked for an inquiry on the ground of the financial unsoundness of the Act which, in his opinion, is rapidly going from bad to worse. He regards the state of things as deteriorating from day to day, and in fact he contemplates it in a spirit of the gloomiest pessimism. That is the real point I have to meet. I know the hon. Gentleman is neither a hostile critic to me nor to the Act itself. Still, he suggests that I evade or dodge his questions, and that is a matter which I cannot entirely pass over. I confess in. that I think he has been more than unjust. I have given him, as he acknowledges, on one point an answer to a question at such extreme length that the whole House resented it. That was a question which I felt deserved a long reply. It was a question in which he had wrapped up some five, or I think six, rather difficult points, and if he asks me these conundrums on actuarial problems, I am bound to say that it is extremely difficult to reply at full length within the limits that the House will allow without referring him to actuarial reports, Blue Books, and so on. That must be my real defence. I have no information which I wish to conceal. I dissent from some of the implications which I think are plainly to be read into his questions, and which were, I believe, the manifest object for which those questions were put. I will come back to those questions in a minute. I must very strongly repudiate any suggestion that I have failed to give the information which is in my possession. Sometimes it is not in my possession. Let me take one of the questions he asked me, in which he complained that I had not been able to give him the total amount payable to panel practitioners in 1914 in respect of domiciliary treatment of tuberculosis. That is one of the many difficulties with which one has to deal at the present time as the result of the War. The real reason I cannot give that figure is because I do not know, and no one knows, what at the end of 1914 was the number of the men who were then enlisted. I could not give him the number, and I cannot give it him now.
But you have the approximate figure.
I do not think I have.
Surely!
No, they are quite ignorant on this point.
I did promise to give him all the information at my disposal on this question, and I am going to circulate it to the House. There is no suggestion of any attempt to conceal any information which is available. However, passing from that, the hon. Member has gone over a great deal of ground and a great number of small points. It is rather difficult to reply to him one by one, and if I omit any it will be inadvertently, because he has dealt with a great number of small details, which, I suppose, all go to build up his case for this general inquiry. Let me, however, clear out of the way one-point. He suggested, for instance, that I had incurred unnecessary trouble in dealing with the question of the chemists' remuneration in Scotland. I might have been very glad indeed to leave that and other burning questions alone at the present time. The question was not raised by me, but was forced on my predecessor by the chemists themselves. The Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain claimed, both in England and in Scotland, that there were grievances connected with the chemists which required alteration. They asked for and obtained a Departmental Committee on which the Scottish chemists; were represented. That Committee reported. That was a public inquiry on which time and money had been spent. Am I to put its Report in the waste-paper basket and say it does not matter? It condemns the present tariff as unjust between man and man and chemist and chemist. At the same time the removal of certain chemists' grievances, both in England and Scotland, was suggested. The Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain then wrote to me and said that they were unable to continue their services at all unless I dealt with the grievances which have been pointed out by this Departmental Committee. Although it is war time, under the circumstances I felt I had to act. I think, at all events in England and Wales, a settlement has been arrived at.
10.0 P.M.
The hon. Member suggests that I have dealt with the Scottish chemists in the spirit of an autocrat—that I have dictated my terms. I have done nothing of the kind. I have proposed to Scottish chemists terms better than English chemists are willing to accept. It is a. little difficult to justify, I confess, paying Scottish chemists higher than English chemists—to give different remuneration for their work simply because one man lives north and the other man lives south of the Tweed. My mind is open on the point; if the Scottish chemists can make out a case, not by vague statements but by ascertained facts and figures, that Scottish conditions justify higher remuneration, I am quite willing to consider it, and I said that I was willing during the period of inquiry that the existing tariff should remain in Scotland, and that at the end of six months, so far from being an autocrat, I suggested we should then propose a tariff which the Scottish chemists could accept or not. I think all this suggestion about autocracy is entirely beside the mark, and is only a part of the very extravagant misrepresentations to which I happen to have been exposed by the Scottish chemists. But I confess that this is only the experience I get whenever any question of economy is raised. There is a great enthusiasm for economy in the abstract, but directly it comes to the suggestion of some economy in the concrete, whether it is the suppression of a post which may perhaps be dispensed with, or some other arrangement for a more economical administration, then at once there is either sudden resentment or fierce and indignant opposition, and I think that, perhaps, in the hon. Member's country I have found, on the whole, the strongest opposition to any suggestion of economy. The hon. Member suggests that I might have been guided by the Scottish Commission, and he suggests that the Scottish Commission has an apparently different policy. I think the hon. Member has not appreciated the constitutional position, if I may be allowed to say so. In administrative questions of this order I have yet to learn that there is any distinction of policy to be drawn between the Minister responsible to Parliament and the Department which carries out his policy.
My point was rather as to the manner in which the Scottish Commission had been approached, and not as to policy. I expressly said I was not fighting the battle of the Scottish Commission.
The hon. Member said the chemists had been ill-used by my autocratic manner, but he has been misled by the persistent misrepresentation of my acts which the Scottish chemists have circulated throughout Scotland. I do not want to deal further with that, but I hope further reflection and further consideration of the whole problem may lead to a satisfactory adjustment of our difficulties, and in that case I believe I shall not quarrel with the hon. Member. Passing from that, the hon. Member suggests an inquiry, and he regards it as being opportune at the present time. Let me just invite the Members of this House who are present to consider that for a moment. One thing is quite plain at the present minute, that there is in every Department and in all the approved societies who are working the Act a heavy strain. My own Department is seriously depleted. The Department is very young in years, and has a very large proportion of men of military age. The members of that Department are volunteering with remarkable spirit and patriotism. In a very little while we may have 70 per cent. of the men of military age joining the Army, and those who are left are the men whom we simply cannot spare if the Act is to be carried on. On a staff so depleted this extra burden of a great roving inquiry over the administration of the Insurance Act is to be placed.
It is not only my own Department. Every approved society is in exactly the same position. I heard of one society only to-day. It has had all its members of military age present at a recruiting meeting, and their enlistment is facilitated. If we are to have an inquiry at this time, I suppose I shall have to tell the various societies that they must put a stop to enlistment and concentrate their attention on getting the necessary information which is required. Many of the best men engaged in this administration are in the Army. Let us take another point. The hon. Member blames me for raising questions gratuitously of a controversial character. One of a controversial nature has been raised—the abolition of the Scottish Commission. It has been suggested that the Retrenchment Committee is going to abolish that. What is the result? The Retrenchment Committee; had not come to any decision on that point, but it was supposed that it was under consideration. At once the whole of Scotland was mobilised, and the Scottish Members know the condition of their postbags on that subject. If you are going to raise all these controversial points about the Insurance Act, do you suppose if you are going to have a roving Commission that everyone affected is going to sit quiet and wait? If the whole of these intricate questions, which are difficult in themselves and which are haunted by the ghosts of past controversies, are going to be raised at this moment I confess I do not think that that is acting in the spirit of avoiding controversies. Then, if this inquiry is to begin, the first question that must be asked is, Is this thing sound and is the whole finance of the Act right? There is only one way of answering that. You can form a conjecture or an indication of the general trend of things, but the real answer to it can only be provided by valuation, and you cannot have a satisfactory inquiry which precedes or accompanies valuation.
Lastly, if this inquiry is going to be made, some regard must be had to the financial position of the country at the present time, and we do not know what that is. The whole question of the extension of benefits comes up, and also the question how we are to treat deposit contributors. We should have to deal with the question of medical benefits in Ireland, whether you are going to have an extension of medical referees, and other questions. All that may involve Government help. We do not know what the real financial position of the country is at the present time, and you cannot tell within £1,000,000,000 what the National Debt is going to be; therefore it is difficult to set up a roving Commission that will raise all these questions as to the possible extension of the Insurance Act. Though I do not object to an inquiry at the right time, it seems to me that this is about the most inappropriate time for an inquiry that could be chosen. That does not prevent, as I tried to show in reply to my hon. Friend's questions, the consideration of points on which legislation at the right time may be passed. Of course all that is being carefully watched at the present time. A record is being kept of all the suggestions which anybody engaged in the administration of the Act has made to various Commissions, and any memoranda which anyone engaged in this work would send to me I need hardly say will be very carefully studied. I hope to have the opportunity of meeting a great number of those engaged in the administration of the Act: for instance, in the course of a few days I shall be meeting representatives from the National Conference of Friendly Societies, and so far as an informal investigation of the position goes, I am quite prepared to play my part. I think that a formal inquiry by a Select Committee or by a Royal Commission can only be justified on one ground, which the hon. Member believes, that the Act is going from bad to worse, and that in its financial part it will not brook a moment's delay.
There is another point which I would like to deal with in the few minutes which are at my disposal. The hon. Member's case partly rests upon particular details and what he regards as flaws, and he mentions what he calls the partial paralysis of sanatorium benefit and the improper payment of the doctors. I am afraid I shall not have time to go into such questions as to whether £76 was properly paid to a certain civilian doctor in Scotland. That particular payment to which he takes exception was due to a method of calculation of the remuneration of doctors which is not in force in Scotland at the present time. The Scottish Commission have now adopted a different plan, which will prevent the occurrence of that particular case; but, looking at it broadly, what I tried to convey in my answers was that I did not dispute the hon. Member's arithmetic, and that it is not a question of arithmetic, but of administrative method. The point is whether this is a proper method of paying the doctors and whether it is possible to overhaul and revise it. It may be that the doctors who take a certain liabilitity at so much per head have got more remuneration than the hon. Member thinks is justifiable. That may be quite open to consideration at the proper time, but I do not think we should overlook the fact that when we made that bargain three years ago with the doctors they took a certain risk, and they took over a certain liability to treat all persons, whether they had chosen a doctor or not, at a certain rate. In that case I do not think we have any right now to turn round and say such an arrangement should be cancelled until the period for which the bargain is made is finished. That period was for three years, but it is impossible to deal with the whole question of the remuneration of the doctors at this time. As a matter of fact many of them have patriotically gone to the front, and many of them are conducting their practices under circumstances of great pressure, and although these points may be noted by the hon. Member if he chooses for future consideration, he may say if he likes that 6d. per head for domiciliary treatment is too much; he may argue that way if he likes—
I made no suggestion of that kind.
Then I do not know what was the object of his criticism.
The object of my criticism was the bad distribution of the money.
Then the hon. Member does not object to the amount of the remuneration the doctors are receiving, but he thinks that they are receiving it on an improper basis.
I certainly think it is an improper basis, but as to the amount I made no assertions.
Then I will pass from that point and deal with the question of the alleged paralysis of sanatorium benefit. The hon. Member speaks as though sanatorium benefit has almost entirely broken down at the present time, and as if there were no funds, but nothing of the kind has happened.
Partial paralysis.
Some of the areas may have their difficulties, but the position in London has been greatly exaggerated. The funds will be diminished, it may be, by enlistment in the course of the coming year, but still there are large funds, amounting to £800,000, or something of that sort, for the country as a whole. Besides that, I find that there still remains on balance a sum of £150,000 resulting from the accumulated surpluses of prewar times. I admit that you have got to deal with local conditions, and that there may be some parts of the country which are locally in some difficulties, but to say that the funds are exhausted when they are not exhausted—
I never said that the funds were exhausted, but funds in the bank are not sanatorium treatment. Where are the sanatoria?
If I had the time to give the details of some particular county or city which has taken the right steps and has got the proper dispensary system and a proper agreement with the county council for the right treatment of the population, insured and uninsured, I could show the hon. Member, although there still remains something to be done, that progress has been very great, and can still go on. I admit that at the present time we could easily spend more money in the fight against tuberculosis, but insurance committees, whether in London or elsewhere, must use the considerable sums at their disposal and learn, as other people have to do, to live within their income. If they will do that, although the whole problem may not be solved, I do say that a vast amount of real and effective good can be done. The tuberculosis death-rate is coming down, and will, I trust, continue to come down, under the existing finance of the Act. Then the hon. Member says and implies that the Act is steadily going downhill and getting worse and worse. The effect of the War upon the finance of the Act has raised apprehension in some people's minds, I admit, but I do not believe—
More than that!
If it is more than that, there is still leas foundation for that accentuated apprehension which the hon. Member shares. If it is true that the income is diminished by enlistments, the House has at the same time to realise that the large accumulations of funds going on at the present time is being accompanied by a higher rate of interest than the actuaries originally estimated, and that will be of considerable value in the future. The hon. Member will tell me that against that you have to set the depreciation in the funds already invested, but the depreciation is far more than off-set by the accumulations which are going to take place in the future at the higher rate of interest. That is one point, and there are other points which have to be off-set against any possible loss. Then you have the Act of 1915, which takes some part of the extra burden resulting from war conditions off approved societies. Another point is that, so far from there being a progressive deterioration, the condition of things during the War has steadily improved. The fall in sickness claims is heavy and remarkable. It is not merely shown in the experience of men, but also in that of women. You may say that the fall in the sickness experience of men may be due to enlistment, and may be accounted for partly by the absence of men in the field, but that will not account for the fall in the women's sickness. I have got the experience based on sickness from societies having five million members, and in comparing certain weeks since August last with the corresponding period last year, I find the reduction is 20 per cent. for England as a whole. It is much heavier in London, where the sickness benefit has fallen by 33 per cent. in the case of men and women, and 25 per cent. in the case of women alone. This is happening at a time when they say the Act is insolvent. Let me give one final fact. In dealing with matters of this kind you must not be led away by the fallacies of big figures. The fact that you are putting large sums to the reserve does not necessarily prove that the Act is solvent. That is finally decided by the relation of assets to liabilities. At the present moment when the hon. Member thinks the Act is tottering on the verge of a precipice, we have not only put away £29,500,000 which have been invested in Government securities, but already during the period of the War, when we are told that the Act has been reduced to practically a state of paralysis, I find between £8,000,000 and £9,000,000 sterling has been invested as a result of accumulation under the Act in Government securities almost entirely, and a very large proportion has gone into the War Loan.
It being one hour after the conclusion of Government Business, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February.
Adjourned at Twenty-two minutes after Ten o'clock.