House of Commons
Thursday, December 2, 1915
TREATY SERIES (No. 13, 1915)
Copy presented of Accession of the Federated Malay States of Perak, Selangor, Negri, Sembilan, and Pahang to the Extradition Treaty between the United Kingdom and Siam of 4th March, 1911. Bangkok, 30th September, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Penal, Servitude Acts (Conditional Licence)
Copy presented of a Licence granted to a Convict discharging her from Aylesbury Convict Prison on condition that she enters a home [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Horses for Military Purposes (Committee)
Copy presented of Report of the Committee appointed by the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to consider and advise what steps should be taken in England and Wales to secure an adequate supply of Horses suitable for Military Purposes [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Health of Munition Workers' Committee
Copy presented of Report on Industrial Canteens of the Committee appointed by the Minister of Munitions with the concurrence of the Home Secretary [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Civil Contingencies Fund, 1914–15
Copy ordered "of Accounts of the Civil Contingencies Fund, 1914–15, showing (1) the Receipts and Payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March, 1915; (2) the Distribution of the Capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; together with Copy of the Correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon."—[ Mr. Montagu. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Southern Persia
GERMAN AGENTS ENCOURAGING DISORDER.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, when the Foreign Office first heard of the possibility of trouble in Southern Persia; whether Persian reinforcements were sent to Hamadan in October to protect the Russians and British; and whether similar steps were taken with regard to Shiraz, where the British Consul has now been seized?
The conditions prevailing in Southern Persia have for several years been such as to admit of the perpetration of isolated acts of brigandage and revolt, but it was not till this spring that His Majesty's Government received direct evidence that these elements of disorder were being organised and encouraged by German agents in defiance of the Persian Government.
The only regular Persian force available at the time for the restoration of order in the provinces was, apart from the gendarmerie, the Cossack Brigade at Tehran, amounting in all to some 2,500 men.
A detachment of this brigade was sent to Hamadan in October, but the Persian Government were unable still further to denude the capital by detailing other detachments for the more remote provincial centres. There was no force that could be sent to Shiraz.
Untenanted Lands (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the area of un-tenanted and non-residential grazing land in Meath, Westmeath, King's County, and Kildare, respectively, released from grazing and distributed in accordance with the Land Acts during the last three months in pursuance of the policy of increasing food production, and the area in each of those counties to be similarly released and distributed in the next three months?
I am informed that the Estates Commissioners did not distribute any untenanted land situate in the counties mentioned during the last three months, and that they expect to distribute 50 acres in Meath, 335 in Westmeath, and 300 in King's County during the next three months.
Irish Volunteers
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if any change has been made in the object of the Irish Volunteers; if so, will he say what it is; and, if none, will he say on what grounds, by whose direction, and on what authority the police and Civil departments of government in Ireland are now treating the Irish Volunteers as an illegal organisation?
I am not aware that there has been any change in the objects or treatment of that section of the Volunteers in Ireland who have seceded from the National Volunteers under the direction of the Irish Parliamentary leaders, have called themselves the "Irish Volunteers," and have, under the guidance of their committee, endeavoured to obstruct recruiting and to foment disloyalty in Ireland.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that "Irish Volunteers" is the name of an organisation originally formed, the object of which he read in this House without disapproval? Does not that object still hold good?
No, Sir. They have since behaved in such a manner that they are endeavouring, as I have said, to obstruct recruiting and foment disloyalty. That was not stated to be one of their objects.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any evidence for that assertion other than the inventions of his own subordinates?
Yes, Sir.
Foilemore National School Teacher
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the date and nature of the communication from Dublin Castle, in pursuance of which the Resident Commissioner of National Education in Ireland, without the authority of the Board, called upon Mr. O'Connell, teacher of Foilemore National School, Cahirciveen, to sever his connection with the Irish Volunteers, under pain of dismissal; whether he will specify the rule, if any, violated by Mr. O'Connell and the rule, if any, empowering the Resident Commissioner to deprive him of his living for that cause; and, seeing that meetings of the Board are convened by direction of the Resident Commissioner, by what method is a meeting of the Board to be convened to consider the Resident Commissioner's conduct in that case?
I am informed by the Commissioners of National Education that the action in the case of Mr. O'Connell, teacher of Foilemore National School, Cahirciveen, was taken by order of the Board at one of their ordinary meetings, and not by direction of the Resident Commissioner. Rule 88 ( a ) of the Commissioners' Code states that "teachers are not permitted to be members of any association tending to impair their usefulness as teachers," and the Board have decided that organisations of such a nature as that of which Mr. O'Connell was a member come under the scope of this Regulation. It is incorrect to state that the meetings of the Board are convened by the Resident Commissioner. The ordinary meetings of the Board are held regularly on definite fixed dates, but special meetings of the Board may be convened by direction of the Resident Commissioner as necessity may arise.
The right hon. Gentleman has not given me the date and nature of the communication from Dublin Castle to the Resident Commissioner.
I know nothing about it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire?
Certainly.
Recruiting
Royal Irish Constabulary
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether there are several thousand men in the Royal Irish Constabulary of military age who have had a semi-military training; whether, when a member of this force joins the Army, he forfeits his police pay; whether a postman or Civil servant, though without any kind of military training, who joins the Army receives his full pay minus the Army pay; whether he is aware that dissatisfaction prevails amongst the Royal Irish Constabulary at the attitude of the authorities towards them about enlisting; and if he will make representations to the proper authorities to allow members of this force to join the Army as freely as other men in the public service, and on as good terms as to rank, pay and allowances?
As I informed the hon. Member for the City of Kilkenny on the 15th November, there are 6,268 men of military age in the Royal Irish Constabulary, and they are highly disciplined. The financial terms offered to members of the force upon enlistment in the Army are regulated by Statute, and were stated in my reply to the hon. Member for the Connemara Division of Galway on the 22nd November. The civil pay of a Civil servant who enlists in the Army is abated by the amount of any separation allowance paid in respect of him as well as of his Army pay. I am not aware that the attitude of the authorities towards enlistment gives any reasonable ground for dissatisfaction amongst the Royal Irish Constabulary, who may now enlist freely and on as favourable financial terms as the police of London and elsewhere.
Dockyard Workmen
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that enlisted men are being brought back to serve in His Majesty's dockyards who were not previously working in these yards; and, if it be necessary to replenish the shops in this way, will he explain how the country is served by men now working in the shops being asked to leave their work for the purpose of enlistment?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the suggestion in the second part of my hon. Friend's question, it is not correct to say that dockyard workmen are being asked to leave their work for service in the military forces. The position is as stated in my reply to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chatham on Tuesday, namely, that workmen in His Majesty's dockyards and naval establishments, who are eligible for recruitment, are now at liberty to enlist, under Lord Derby's scheme, for immediate transfer to the Reserve, it being understood that they will not be withdrawn for military duties unless and until their services can be spared by the Admiralty.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the notice recently circulated in His Majesty's dockyards with regard to the recruiting of workmen under Lord Derby's scheme; can he say whether the circular includes established men; and, if so, will he explain how in the altered circumstances the services of these men are to be at the disposal of the Admiralty in accordance with the contract signed respectively by the men and by representatives on the part of the Admiralty?
The notice referred to in the first part of my hon. Friend's question has been issued by authority, and its contents are well known. The notice applies to all workmen, and established men are not excluded. The terms of the notice indicate that the men will not be drawn from their dockyard employment for military service unless and until the Admiralty are able to dispense with them. In the event of permission being given for established workmen to be called up for active military service, such men, as a matter of course, will be released from their obligations as dockyard workmen whilst they are serving with the military forces.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what would happen in the case of the pensions of these men—pensions to which they have contributed—in the event of the men being killed or incapacitated?
In the event of the men being incapacitated they would continue in the service, and in time come back to the dockyard. There would be no variation there. I should like to have notice of the question as to the men killed. I imagine their widows would become eligible for pensions under the Act.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the men themselves have contributed to the pension? What will become of the money they have contributed?
I should like to have notice of that question.
Letter Carriers
asked the Assistant-Postmaster-General whether he is aware that in some cases postmen employed in letter carrying who have expressed willingness to enlist have been refused leave to attend for attestation till after the New Year's postal traffic is over; and whether, having regard to the effect of this on ascertaining the true results of Lord Derby's recruiting scheme, he will give directions that such leave be given?
Any cases of this kind which have occurred have been due to local misapprehension. It is my right hon. Friend's wish that all postmen who are willing to enlist should present themselves for immediate attestation under Lord Derby's scheme. Arrangements have already been made that they shall not be called up till after Christmas. Further instructions were issued on Tuesday last to make the matter quite clear.
Foreign Office Staff
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the possibility of allowing members of the staff of the Foreign Office and of the Diplomatic and Consular Services to enlist?
His Majesty's Government regard it as essential in the national interest that the members of the staff of the Foreign Office and of the Diplomatic and Consular Services should remain at their posts and, even if of eligible age, should not join His Majesty's Forces. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has therefore informed the members of the staff of the Foreign Office and Diplomatic and Consular Services that they are not permitted to offer themselves for military or naval service.
Headmasters
asked the Undersecretary for War whether it is the intention to recruit headmasters of schools who may be of military age; whether he is aware that, if the headmasters enlist, this would in some cases nave serious consequence to the schools; and will he therefore say whether it is the intention to canvass these men, seeing that at the present time they have charge of the training; of boys who may later on be called for military service?
I agree that in some cases the calling up of headmasters would be prejudicial to the public service, and possibly the military service, but I have no reason to believe that the machinery of the; Local Tribunals and Local Advisory Committees will prove ineffective. The Board of Education have recently issued a. circular relating to the arrangements for dealing with appeals in respect of teachers which have been made with the approval of the Director-General of Recruiting.
Civil Servants
asked the Under-Secretary for War what proportion of the men of military age in each of the Departments of State have joined the Forces during the War and, if any, what steps are being taken to release men of military age in Government offices; and will he say what steps are being taken, if any, to get men from the Forces who are needed in the workshops?
The first part of the question should be addressed to my right, hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury. The answer to the second part is that men asked for by the Ministry of Munitions are being released, as far as they can be spared by the Army, for employment on the production of munitions of war.
Post Office Rifles
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if it is proposed to reprimand Captain Milne, of the Post Office Rifles, for a speech delivered by him within the building of the Controller's Office, London Telephone Service, on Thursday, 21st October last, in which he stated that with regard to Conscription the opinion has been expressed to him by responsible persons who, he-understood, would assist in drafting the Conscript Bill, that the Civil pay of Civil servants would not be paid to conscripts; that the Deputy-Chairman of the House of Commons was of that opinion; the conscripts would receive bad treatment at the hands of volunteers he felt certain, as he was basing his opinions on the tone of the fellows at present in the Post Office Rifles; and that he further said that he would pity conscripts who came under his personal command; and whether the War Office will issue some general statement deprecating such statements as the above at recruiting meetings in view of their effect upon recruiting?
I am at a loss to know how my hon. Friend obtained the information contained in the question, since Captain Milne was speaking privately in a private place and, if he expressed his personal opinion with considerable freedom, that in itself is not an offence. I would add that his remarks were made in answer to questions addressed to him, and not on his own initiative. I think too much attention has been directed to this matter.
Vaccination
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if persons offering themselves for enlistment under Lord Derby's scheme are in all cases required to be vaccinated; if volunteers have been refused because they would not submit to vaccination; and whether men volunteering under Lord Derby's scheme can choose to join a Territorial regiment if they wish to do so?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I have no specific information in the sense of the second part of the question, but it is possible that certain men offering themselves have stated that they were unwilling to be vaccinated, and have in consequence been told that they could not be attested. As regards the last part of the question, if a man on being attested on the group system expresses a desire to join the Territorial Force when called up, his attestation papers are marked to this effect; although no promise can be given, his wishes will be met if it is possible to do so.
Housing (Glasgow)
asked the Secretary for Scotland the number of houses of £21 a year rental and under in Glasgow?
I understand that the number of houses under £21 is 198,405.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received any information since the Report?
This information was given, together with the total number of houses in Glasgow, in the Report of the Committee.
Questions
Discharged Naval Men (Badges)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether steps will be taken to provide men who have been discharged from naval service during the War on medical grounds with an armlet or other badge; and, if so, whether he can give any information as to the arrangements for issue?
The matter has been under consideration, and instructions will be issued shortly.
Naval Dental Surgeons
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the reason for the discrimination between dental surgeons in the service of the Admiralty, whereby those employed afloat are given commissions and those ashore are not given commissions, although the qualifications and duties of the two classes are identical; whether under Lord Derby's scheme of recruiting for the Army dental surgeons employed ashore by the Admiralty are held to be indispensable, and are not eligible for enlistment; and whether, especially in view of the odium now attaching to men of military age not apparently in the public service, he will remedy the inequality between the two classes of dental surgeons mentioned by giving commissions to all alike, whether employed afloat or ashore?
There are obvious differences in the conditions of service of dental surgeons at sea and those serving ashore, and the claims of the latter were fully considered in arriving at the decision not to grant them commissions. The services of dental surgeons employed on shore are indispensable, and in view of this they have been granted the Admiralty war service badge, and will in due course be given a special certificate stating that their services cannot be spared and that it is their duty to remain at their present posts.
Naval Ratings (Subsistence Allowance)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether naval ratings on leave usually receive an extra 8½d. per day for subsistence allowance; whether men on leave through sickness or wounds do not receive the extra allowance; and if he will explain the reason the latter do not get the extra pay?
Naval ratings granted long leave are entitled to an allowance of 8½d. per diem in lieu of Service victualling, and any men sent on leave as a result of sickness, etc., would be similarly treated. If my hon. Friend has any particular case in mind, I shall be happy to have it inquired into if he will let me know the details.
Admiralty Transport Work (Advisory Committee)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Advisory Committee of three shipping experts, having now undertaken to requisition steamers to convey food supplies in addition to advising in the working of the 6,000,000 tons of mercantile marine to the greatest advantage, His Majesty's Government will strengthen the Committee for its task by the addition of four more shipping experts and give them some measure of executive power under proper conditions?
As regards Admiralty transport work and the services rendered by its Advisory Committee, I have already taken occasion to express our sense of obligation to that Committee for the services it has rendered, pointing out at the same time that the number had been increased from three to four by the addition of Mr. F. C. Gardiner.
We are always ready to avail ourselves of the opinions and suggestions of shipping experts, and my hon. Friend's suggestion that, for the purposes of advising the Admiralty Transport Department— particularly in view of the new duties placed upon them as members of the Requisitioning Committee—additions should be made to the membership of the Advisory Committee, shall certainly be taken into consideration.
Midshipmen (Examinations)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether midshipmen who entered Osborne in January, 1909, have been promoted acting sublieutenants without examination; whether those who entered Osborne one term later—namely, in May, 1909—are now required to pass examinations, notwithstanding the fact that since August, 1914, it has been impossible for them to carry on their studies; and, if so, will he say upon what considerations the distinction between these two sets of midshipmen is based?
The answers to the first and second parts of the question are in the affirmative, but the examination to be held is in the nature of a test only, in order to ensure that an officer has the requisite knowledge for performing the duties of a sub-lieutenant. As regards the third part of the question, the test examination has been introduced in the interests of the Service after full consultation with officers serving afloat.
Steamship "Emir" (Seizure of Hemp)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty how many tons of German East African sisal hemp were seized on board the steamship "Emir" and sold by order of the Prize Court, the price per ton realised, and the date of the sale?
1,497 tons, 18 cwts., 12 lbs. net, of hemp and hemp tow were sold on 27th March, under the direction of the Oversea Prize Disposal Committee, in consequence of an order of the Gibraltar Prize Court. The Committee instructed Messrs. Churchill and Sim, general brokers to the Admiralty Marshal. I understand that Messrs. Churchill and Sim employed as expert brokers Messrs. Bastone and Firminger; and I am in- formed that, owing to the congestion in the Port of London, it was necessary to sell ex ship's side. A number of merchants concerned in the hemp trade were approached, but declined to consider so large a transaction, with the exception of Messrs. Landauer and Co., to whom the goods were sold tale quale as they lay in the ship's holds, with a guarantee of removal within ten days, without any allowance for damage or guarantee as to proportion of tow. The price realised for the hemp was £33 10s. per ton, which, I am advised, was equal to about £35 per ton stored in the docks and sold in the usual way. That figure, I am advised, was reasonable for hemp of this quality, having regard to the conditions of sale and to the market price at the time. The hemp tow fetched £18 10s. a ton.
Coal Prices (Charlton)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if for many weeks coal has been sold from trolleys in the Charlton, London district, at 2s. per hundredweight to small consumers and that the price has now risen to 2s. 1d.; and if, in view of the difficulty of working people economising when the cost of living is continually increasing in the manner indicated, he will inquire into the reason of the extra charge on coal?
I will have inquiry made and communicate with my hon. Friend.
Great Central Railway Company (Employment of Girls)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if six girls have been reduced in wages and status for joining a trade union by the Great Central Railway Company; and, if so, whether, in view of the effect of such action on the part of the company on enlistment under Lord Derby's scheme, he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I have received a complaint in this matter, and I understand that the railway company have no objection to their clerks joining a trade union except those employed in confidential positions at their head offices.
Is it suggested that these girls are employed in confidential positions?
I believe that is the fact.
Labour Exchanges (Alien Enemies)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the practice of the superintendents of Labour Exchanges with regard to guaranteeing persons recommended by them to employers; has the practice his sanction or any express authority; is he aware that such guarantees have been given in respect of alien enemies; and, if so, does he propose that the practice should continue, or what steps will he take to put an end to the practice of a British official recommending and guaranteeing in any particular any enemy alien during the present War?
It is not the practice of Labour Exchanges to give any guarantee with regard to workpeople submitted by them to employers, although, of course, every effort is made to ensure that only suitable applicants are submitted. Special restrictions as regards placing enemy aliens in employment by the Labour Exchanges were laid down at the beginning of the War. If the hon. Member will give me particulars of the cases he has in mind, I shall be glad to have inquiry made.
British Firms (German Interests)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether British firms who have German partners or shareholders are anxious to have no further business relations with Germans; and will he seek powers from this House giving British firms the same right which many limited companies in this country have, under their articles of association, of buying out undesirable shareholders, to buy up the interest or shares held by such Germans, a fair price to be settled under rules made by the Courts, the proceeds to be deposited with the Public Trustee or Public Custodian?
My right hon. Friend has considered this proposal, which seeks to deal with a problem of serious difficulty, but, as at present advised, he is not prepared to initiate legislation on these lines to give effect to it.
London Emery Works Company
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether the London Emery Works Company absolutely belong to the Vereinigte Schmirgel und Maschinen Fabrik, in Hainholz, Hanover, and that this company was formed here to take its supplies from the German company and brand them as British for sale in the Colonies; whether he has informed the War Office, Admiralty, and India Office that there are all-British firms in Sheffield capable of doing this Government work; why this German firm is preferred to British firms by His Majesty's Government; and (2) if he will make inquiries why all British companies on the War Office and Admiralty lists, and other Government Departments, who manufacture grinding wheels, have received few orders while Sheffield firms can supply these wheels at a less price and of better quality than German firms; and why this preference is given to the London Emery Company, the British Abrasive Wheel Company, Limited, and the United Vincit Company, Limited, which are German owned, controlled, and managed by Germans in part or whole?
As my hon. Friend was informed on the 17th November, the London Emery Works Company, Limited, is a branch of the German firm referred to in the first question, and a supervisor of the business has been appointed. I have no knowledge as to the distribution of orders given by Government Departments to this or to the other firms mentioned, and I must refer my hon. Friend to the Ministers responsible for the Departments concerned for information on the subject.
Patent Acts
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he intends to bring in any legislation to suspend the operation of the Patent Acts with regard to the duration of patents, so as to meet the case of manufacturers of patent articles who are unable to continue the manufacture during the War, owing to their works being occupied for Government purposes, who in the absence of any provision would lose part of the period of exclusive right granted them under the Patent Acts?
As at present advised, my right hon. Friend is not prepared to introduce legislation for the purpose indicated in the question.
Will the Board be able, by administrative Order or otherwise, to deal with this question without legislation?
That question may arise later on, but I cannot give any undertaking on the subject.
Munitions
Drink Closing Order
asked the Minister of Munitions (1) whether he has. observed that Lord d'Abernon has permitted public use to be made of the fact that it was on the repeated request of the Ministry of Munitions that the new Drink Closing Order had been applied to-the Metropolis; that it had not been demanded by the military authorities; whether he will exactly specify in what part of the Metropolis the drunken or drink-soaking working men whose inefficiency had interfered with the production of munitions were to be found; and (2) if he is aware that three responsible public-men were permitted to examine the evidence in possession of the Board-of Control (Liquor Traffic) upon which the new Order was based for London; that the secretary of the London Trades Council, the secretary of the Working Men's Club and Institute Union, and the secretary of the London Protest Committee have declared that the evidence does not justify the application of the new Order to London; and whether he will publish the full evidence in possession of the Board of Control?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer these questions. I am not aware that the chairman of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) has permitted any public use to be made of the different communications which took place between the Ministry of Munitions and the Board with regard to the London Order. The Minister of Munitions is of opinion that the application of the new Order was necessary in the interests of the successful prosecution of the War and approved the Order which was submitted to him by the Board. The Central Control Board were glad to be able to comply with the request of the three gentlemen referred to in the second question, who examined a portion of the available evidence, but their opinion cannot be set against the considered judgment of the Central Control Board, which was arrived at after long deliberation and personal examination of the facts by both members and officers. I am not aware that any such objectionable suggestion as that conveyed in the latter part of the hon. Member's first question was ever made by any person or body whatsoever.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the name of trade unionists is being used in opposition to this Order without the authority of the unions and in contradiction to the unions' views?
I have seen that officers of trade unions have dissociated themselves from certain statements which have been made.
Questions
Treasury Control
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the scheme of Treasury control over Admiralty and War Office expenditure, as set forth in the Treasury Minutes of 8th December, 1914, 29th January, 1915, and 29th March, 1915, is in force in regard to the Ministry of Munitions; and whether, in accordance with the Treasury Minute of 20th August, 1914, periodical forecasts of expenditure out of Votes of Credit in respect of munitions are submitted to the Treasury?
The rules in force as between the Treasury and the War Office are as an interim arrangement being applied to the Ministry of Munitions, pending the formulation of definite arrangements as between the Treasury and the Ministry, which it is hoped will be completed at an early date. The Minutes referred to in the question are being acted upon under the interim arrangement, and will be specifically applied by the new scheme. The answer to the last part of the is in the affirmative.
Are we to understand that the control of the Treasury over the Munitions Department will be at least as close and strong as that exercised over the War Office and the Admiralty?
I hope to make it so, but I am not sure that the control over any Department is at present as strong as possibly the House of Commons would wish it to be.
Is there any check at all upon the expenditure of the Munitions Department other than the economic instincts of those who are managing the Department?
Are there any economic instincts at all in these personages?
I think that question, should be addressed to my hon. Friend next to me (Dr. Addison).
Lord Kitchener
asked the Prime Minister whether Lord Kitchener will on his return resume his duties as Minister for War; and, if so, whether he will be a member of the War Council formed of Members of the Cabinet?
Lord Kitchener has resumed his duties at the War Office, and he is attending the meetings, of the War Committee of the Cabinet in his capacity as Secretary of State for War.
Is he a member of the War Council?
Yes, of course he is.
Situation in Balkans
asked the Prime Minister whether, before the House rises for the Christmas Recess, an opportunity will be given to debate the military and diplomatic dispositions which have led to the present state of affairs in Serbia and the neighbouring parts of the Near East?
I will consider, but I can give no undertaking.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider that the situation in Serbia is becoming worse and worse and, in addition to certain moral aspects of the situation, there is the question of the continual detriment in the military situation?
All these things have been most carefully considered.
Parliament and Registration Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether he can explain the delay which has occurred in introducing the Parliament and Registration Bill; whether, when its introduction was announced for the 23rd November, its proposals had been submitted to and approved by the Cabinet; and whether the promise will now be renewed that ample time for the discussion and consideration of this Bill will be given in this House?
The delay was due to the necessity for giving the fullest consideration to a somewhat difficult problem. My promise with regard to time does not need renewal.
Great Britain and France
asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the suggestions forwarded to him by the Member for North-East Bethnal Green for enabling representative members of the French Chamber of Deputies and Members of the British House of Commons to meet for the purpose of promoting the interests of the two countries with respect to present and after-war conditions; and whether he is prepared to give facilities in the direction indicated?
My hon. Friend's suggestions involve considerations that call for a good deal of inquiry, and I am afraid that I cannot give an answer to the last part of his question today.
National Economy
asked the Prime Minister whether, with a view of preventing wasteful expenditure, His Majesty's Government will appoint a small committee of financial and commercial experts to review, week by week, the expenditure in connection with the Army, Navy, and the Ministry of Munitions, and to report thereon to the Committee of the Cabinet charged with the conduct of the War?
His Majesty's Government are giving close and continuous attention to this matter, and the necessary steps are being taken to secure the objects which my hon. Friend has in view.
Tax on Capital
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the War Census Act of the Commonwealth of Australia, which provides for the ascertainment of the capital value of all land, stock, shares, machinery, and other assets situated in Australia, whether held by corporations, firms, or individuals, resident or non-resident in the Commonwealth; and whether, with a view to the imposition of a War Tax upon capital in the United Kingdom, he will consider the desirability of providing for the taking of a similar census of the wealth of Great Britain and Ireland?
In the present circumstances the Government think that a fair valuation of capital for the purpose of a War Tax is hardly practicable.
German-Owned Firms
asked the Prime Minister if he will direct the Ministers of all Departments of the State who are trading with German-owned firms or firms where Germans own a majority of the shares of any company to lay upon the Table particulars showing the names of all such companies and of their shareholders?
I have no evidence which would lead me to believe that such a Return would serve a useful purpose, but I am quite ready to consider any information which my hon. Friend may wish to produce in support of his suggestions?
Co-Operative Societies (Taxation of Profits)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with reference to the question of taxing at source the profits of co-operative societies, whether satisfactory proof exists that it would be necessary to repay much the greater part of the sum collected to the members who are said to be exempt, since no return of members is made to the registrar; and whether he will issue trial papers to householders who are members of two or three large co-operative societies, in order to test the estimate made by traders that between 40 and 50 per cent. of such members are liable to Income Tax?
I am afraid I can add nothing to the numerous answers which I have already given on this subject.
New City Hall, Dundee
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that the Lord Provost of Dundee refuses his consent to the publication of the correspondence which has taken place between himself and the Treasury, in connection with the new City Hall, at Dundee, he will make the correspondence public on his own responsibility or that of the Treasry; and whether, in view of the necessity for national economy, he will state the attitude of the Treasury in regard to such municipal undertakings, not only at Dundee but throughout the country generally?
I am afraid I am unable to publish private correspondence without the consent of those concerned. I remain of opinion that it is contrary to the public interest that public works, such as the new City Hall at Dundee, should be proceeded with during the War.
Does the right hon. Gentleman also consider that the case of the new County Hall across the Thames for London comes under the same censure?
Sugar Supplies (Messrs. Tolme and Runge)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the relations between the Sugar Commission and Messrs. Tolme and Runge; whether he is aware that Herman Runge recently stated at a sugar meeting that his son was still a partner in the firm; how many members of this firm are of alien enemy origin; whether Richard Runge is living in Hamburg and has a son fighting in the German Army; and will he explain why he does not transact the business of His Majesty's Government with persons or firms who are of British origin and which are British owned?
No relations exist between the Sugar Commission and Messrs. Tolme and Runge except that Messrs. Tolme and Runge have, in the ordinary course of trade, made offers of sugar from time to time to the Commission on behalf of foreign sellers, from some of which business has resulted. This firm has had no relations with the Commission other than that of the kind established between the Commission and other firms of sugar brokers doing a similar business. The statement attributed to Mr. Herman, Runge is an accurate statement of fact. Mr. Julius Grunge is a member of the firm in question, although as the House has already been informed, he has retired for the period of his engagement by the Commission from any active participation in the business of his firm. The firm in question is British, and no member of the firm is of alien enemy origin. Mr. Richard Runge is not, and has not been since the outbreak of war, a partner, nor has he had any interest in the firm of Tolme and Runge. The last part of the question assumes a state of fact which is not true.
Ruhleben Camp
asked the Prime Minister whether the Foreign Office will apply to have the camp at Ruhleben put under English control on the same principle as the German internment camps in this country are under the control of German committees?
I was informed by the United States Ambassador on the 18th October that the camp at Ruhleben had been placed under the control of the prisoners interned there. Mr. Page's Note containing this information was published in the Press on the 27th October.
Will application be made for all other internment camps for British prisoners in Germany to be put on the same principle of control as German internment camps in this country, which are under the control of German committees?
There are very few civilian prisoners in Germany, except at Ruhleben. If the military prisoners are referred to, efforts will be made in the direction recommended.
Food Prices
asked the Prime Minister whether he has observed that a substantial decline has taken place in the price of certain great articles of consumption, including sugar, and that there is discontent as well as national loss and inconvenience being caused owing to the restrictions imposed by the Government in order to maintain its control on the distribution of this article; and whether, as the main causes which led the Government to adopt this course at the commencement of the War have now ceased to operate, he can see his way to announce that the import of sugar with any necessary restrictions as to its origin will be allowed freely to all merchants from some early date?
I am not aware that any discontent, loss or inconvenience, has arisen in connection with the maintenance of the prohibition on the import of sugar, and the Government are not at present prepared to relax existing restrictions.
Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer remember that every extra penny in the price of sugar represents a tax of £14,000,000 per annum on the people, and will he not therefore relax the prohibition of import so that every possible relief may be obtained?
I believe at this moment, apart from the tax, sugar is being sold in this country at ½d. a pound less than it could be sold if it were bought in the open market. The advantage of not freeing it is that we have been able to make purchases ahead at a far lower price than the outside world could have done, with the result that it is sold here ½d. a pound cheaper than anywhere else in the world.
Casualties (Loos and Gallipoli)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether he could state the total number of casualties on the western front at Loos, or in the vicinity, during the last three months; how far the advanced line has been extended beyond the position occupied three months ago; and (2) whether he could state the total number of casualties, killed, wounded, or missing, of the Australian troops in the Gallipoli Peninsula since their arrival; and whether he can state how far their advance line extends beyond the furthest point occupied by them a week after their arrival?
It is, of course, very undesirable to state, even if it would be possible to do so at all within the limits of a question, the exact position of the lines now held at the two points in question. The casualties on the whole of the West Front, so far as British, Canadian, and Indian troops are concerned, during the period mentioned, amount to approximately 95,000 of all ranks. In the Gallipoli Peninsula the Australians (as distinct from the New Zealand Forces) have sustained approximately 25,000 casualties since their arrival.
Does not the answer of the right hon. Gentleman imply in the high conduct of this War some cardinal defect which ought to be remedied?
Royal Scots Fusiliers
asked the Undersecretary for War whether his attention has been directed to the case of Private R. Armstrong, who joined the Royal Scots Fusiliers ten months ago and was recently discharged from the Service on medical grounds; whether he is aware that this soldier was sent under escort from Netley for the purpose of being placed in Maybole poorhouse; that he was taken under warrant to the poorhouse and indignantly refused to enter the same, desiring to be taken to his wife and four children in Sheffield; that the escort then disclaimed further responsibility and left the soldier, who had only 2s. 6d. between him and want; and that a doctor who examined the man said that there was nothing wrong with him mentally and that he was suffering from nervous debility; whether the authorities will make efforts to find this man and afford him free travelling facilities to his wife at Sheffield; and whether steps will be taken to prevent anything similar happening to other soldiers?
Yes, Sir, my attention has been called to this case. Private Armstrong, who had ten months' service, including six weeks in France, of which three were spent in hospital, was admitted to Netley on the 29th October. On being brought before the Invaliding Medical Board he was pronounced to be suffering from general paralysis of the insane, and recommended for discharge. His wife was communicated with and stated that her circumstances made it difficult for her to have her husband home, as she was living in a small cottage with one bedroom, had four young children, and nothing to live upon but her allowance. There was, consequently, no other course but to send Armstrong to a union, and he was accordingly sent to Maybole. He could not have been sent to the Sheffield Union on account of his not having made any settlement there; and moreover, since he had been attested, his wife had removed from Sheffield to an address in Derbyshire. As regards the latter parts of the question, the sum given to Armstrong was 6s. 6d., which was considered sufficient, as he was going to an institution where he would, of course, be maintained. I am not aware that he had been pronounced by a doctor to be suffering from nervous debility only, and, as I have already indicated, it is not practicable to send him to his wife. I am, however, having further inquiries made regarding this case.
Disabled Soldiers
asked the Undersecretary for War if he would give figures showing how many wholly disabled and how many partially disabled soldiers have been discharged from the hospitals up to the present time; approximately, in what numbers disabled men are at present being discharged per month; how many situations, or opportunities for industrial or agricultural training, have so far been provided for partially disabled men; and whether the number of openings is likely to keep pace with the number of applicants?
I am unable to give the figures asked for in the first part of the question. By arrangement with the Board of Trade men discharged from the Army are invited to register at the Labour Exchange nearest their place of residence if they desire assistance in obtaining employment. Large numbers of men so registered have been placed in employment through this agency. Indeed, I am informed that at the present time the openings for partially disabled discharged soldiers, either in situations or in institutions where training is given, are in excess of the number of men available to fill them. My hon. Friend will be aware that under the provisions of the Naval and Military War Pensions Act one of the functions of the statutory Committee will be to make provisions for the care of disabled officers and men after they have left the Service, including provision for their health, training, and employment.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Committee will be set up?
That does not depend upon me. I cannot give any date.
Income-Tax Charges
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of revenue derived from the increases in the Income Tax over the rates specified in Sections 2 and 4 of the Finance Act of 1914 from the pay of soldiers and sailors serving in the armed forces of the Crown?
The estimate asked for by the hon. Member may be put at £825,000 for a full year.
Time-Expired Soldiers
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether time-expired men in the Army are obliged to continue service without regard to any circumstances which would entitle them to be discharged?
No, Sir; no man is obliged to continue in the Service without regard to the terms upon which he enlisted.
Poplar and Stepney Rifles (Arrest of Private M'adams)
asked the Undersecretary for War whether he is aware that Private M'Adams, of the Poplar and Stepney Rifles, was, whilst attending to his wife, who was seriously ill, arrested by the police on the charge of being an absentee; that he was taken to the local police station and at four o'clock in the morning sent by rail to the quarters of his battalion; whether he is aware that M'Adams was sent back to his home in the East End and found his wife dead; and will he explain why this man was arrested and upon whose orders the arrest was carried out?
I am obtaining an official report on this case.
British Hospitals (Charing Work)
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware that ex-clerks who have joined the Royal Army Medical Corps and whose vacated posts have been filled up by women are being employed to a considerable extent instead of charwomen in British hospitals; and if he will make sure that there are no charwomen available for charing work in hospitals before he allows this double exchange of work between men and women to be carried any further?
If men of the Royal Army Medical Corps are employed on charing work in hospitals at home, this is in order that they may have experience of the work they will be required to do when they are employed in hospitals abroad. It is regarded as a necessary part of their training.
Territorial Force (Units in India)
asked the Undersecretary for War whether he is aware that a number of Territorial Force battalions who had taken the Imperial Service obligation were, on the outbreak of war, sent to India to release men of the Regular Army and enable them to proceed to the seat of war; and whether, seeing that these men enlisted for the express purpose of fighting the enemy and that they have now had upwards of fourteen months' training, it is proposed to enable them to proceed to one of the areas in which the War is going on, and for their places in India to be taken by less efficient troops?
I understand that the desire of the Territorial Force battalions in question to proceed to an actual seat of war has, in the case of several of the battalions, been already gratified. As regards the remainder, I am afraid I cannot give the hon. Gentleman any pledge, although I fully realise the desire of all our troops who are not at actual theatres of war to be sent to such theatres.
Veterinary Surgeons (Promotions)
asked the Undersecretary for War whether he is now in a position to announce that the same rate of pay and the same regulations as to promotion will be granted to veterinary surgeons holding commissions in the Territorial Force as are granted to those holding commissions in the New Army; and whether he will explain why, owing to the present differentiation of treatment in the two branches of the Service, veterinary surgeons in the New Army have quite recently received promotion to captain's rank after one year's service, regardless of their professional experience, whereas veterinary surgeons in the Territorial Army are ineligible for promotion till they have served five years?
I regret I am not yet in a position to make a further statement, but hope a decision will very shortly be reached.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this question has been asked since last June, and that every day men are being, in the opinion of many concerned, unjustly promoted over the heads of others owing to this unfair preference?
I am doing everything I can to expedite a decision.
Cadet Corps
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware of the number of trained Territorial cadets, naval and military, who have enlisted in the fighting Forces previous to and since the outbreak of the War; whether he can see his way to the establishment of municipal cadet battalions affiliated to Regular or Territorial units for working lads between the ages of fourteen and seventeen; whether there is now at the War Office any member of the staff whose special duty it is to supervise cadet corps; and, if not, will he consider the advisability of making an appointment for that purpose?
I believe that between the dates of the inspections in 1913 and the 31st December, 1914, somewhat more than 8,500 cadets, naval, Territorial, and military, had joined His Majesty's Forces. The suggestion made in the second part of the question has been on several occasions brought before the Army Council, but it is not considered necessary to make any alteration in the present cadet organisation. Provision already exists at the War Office for the supervision of cadet corps.
Tuberculosis (Sanatorium Treatment)
asked the Undersecretary for War whether he is aware that the arrangements made with the Insurance Commissioners for the sanatorium treatment of soldiers discharged from the Army suffering from tuberculosis are proving inadequate and unsatisfactory in practice, inasmuch as accommodation in a sanatorium is only available for comparatively few of such patients on discharge from hospital, those few being, as a rule, the least serious cases; and whether he will take immediate steps to provide sanatorium treatment for all soldiers and ex-soldiers invalided from active service with tubercular disease, in the interest alike of the men and their families and of the health of the nation?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I explained to the hon. Member the special arrangements made for these cases in my reply to him on the 25th ultimo; and I am not aware of any cases referred to the Commissioners by the military authorities under these arrangements for which residential accommodation has not been secured without delay. I have already intimated to the hon. Member that I shall be glad to inquire into any particular case which he has in mind.
asked the Undersecretary for War if it is the practice under War Office regulations to discharge immediately from the Army men who are pronounced to be suffering from tubercular disease; if he is aware that in some cases the discharge from the Army takes effect when the men are in a dying condition, occasioning distress to the men and their families, and that the War Office refuses even to provide burial in such cases; if he is aware that, in consequence of men being discharged as soon as they are pronounced to be suffering from tubercular disease and being then obliged to give up their uniforms, the governors of the Brompton Hospital have had to appeal to the public for gifts of warm clothing for military patients; and whether he will institute more generous treatment for men who have contracted tuberculosis in the service of their country?
No soldier suffering from tuberculosis is under the regulations discharged from a military hospital unless he is fit to travel and in a fit condition for sanatorium treatment. When so discharged they are civilians and, as was explained in answer to my hon. Friend on the 24th November, arrangements for their care are made by the National Health Insurance Commissioners. In the great majority of cases it is not the fact that the disease was due to military service. On discharge a man gives up his uniform and receives a suit of civilian clothes or an allowance in cash.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that men of the kind indicated are coming upon the funds of approved societies all over the country in increasing numbers?
I was not aware of that.
Has the hon. Gentleman observed that part of the question which deals with warm clothing? The answer only says that they are provided with a suit of civilian clothes?
They give up their uniform and get civilian clothes instead of it.
Artillery Officers
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether, under Regulations of the War Office, Artillery officers who were officers in the Regular Army before the War are no longer eligible as aides-decamp and only to a limited extent as adjutants of Artillery brigades; if so, whether this is because it is recognised that the services of such officers are all required for more important work in the batteries; and, if so, whether it is the intention of the War Office to discontinue the higher pay now given to officers on the Staff which was based on the possession of superior qualifications which are not now a condition of Staff employment?
Although officers of the Regular Artillery are still eligible as aides-decamp, such an appointment would be quite exceptional. These officers are also eligible to act as adjutants. Every officer of over three years' service in the Artillery is now eligible to be promoted temporary captain to command a battery if he is recommended as suitable for such work. As regards the latter part of the question, rates of Staff pay are of general application and have no special reference to the rates paid to officers of the Royal Artillery.
Steel Armour
asked the Undersecretary for War whether the authorities have yet decided on a steel helmet for the protection of soldiers going into action; whether all soldiers going into action will be provided with these; whether the French or German pattern has been followed; and whether surgeons have been consulted as to the best shape to protect the skull from fracture, scientific authorities as to the form of helmet most likely to receive bullets at an angle favourable to the wearer, and as to the best kind of steel for the purpose?
Not only have the proper authorities concerned adopted a pattern of steel helmet, but, as I have on many occasions stated, large quantities have already been sent out and are still being sent out. The scale of supply will be that recommended by the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief. There has been no slavish adherence to any existing pattern of helmet, but the authorities, surgical and other, mentioned in the last two parts of the question, have been consulted on the various points mentioned by my hon. Friend.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether British soldiers going into action are provided with any forms of armour protecting vital parts of the body from rifle bullets or bayonet thrusts; if not, whether the matter is still under consideration; and whether he is aware that a large body of scientific opinion believes that the provision of such armour would considerably reduce the number of vital wounds received by our soldiers and consequently the number of those killed or dying of wounds?
Steel shields to protect the vital parts of the body have been designed and tested, but the difficulty has been to devise a shield which is not too heavy for a soldier to carry and yet possesses sufficient power to resist penetration. Trials and experiments with various patterns are being carried out. The patterns largely advertised are not up to the standard which could be of any practical value.
Military Service Bill
asked whether Territorial soldiers whose term of enlistment expired during the first year of the War have all been free to leave the Service and have in certain cases exercised such freedom; whether, under the Bill recently introduced by him, he proposes to withdraw such freedom and to compel Territorial soldiers to continue in the Service till the expiration of the War; and whether, seeing that the effect of such an Act will be to break the State's undertaking given to these men when they enlisted and to treat these men with less consideration than other men who have as yet given no service to the State and are allowed to volunteer under Lord Derby's scheme and, if of mature years, to go into a late group which possibly may never be called up, he will reconsider the desirability of proceeding with this Bill?
My hon. Friend is, I think, referring to the Military Service Bill which stands upon the Paper for Second Reading. As at present advised the Government do not intend to proceed with this Bill, but I shall not move that the Order for the Second Reading be discharged until it has been possible to reach a conclusion as to the success or otherwise of Lord Derby's scheme.
Invalided Soldiers
asked whether men who are relieved from active service and sent home through illness or wounds are being sent to workhouse infirmaries and receive about half of the usual rate of pay; and if it is intended to give such men a sufficient allowance or pension in order that they may maintain themselves in comfort and decency?
A certain number of Poor Law institutions have been taken over by the War Office and converted into military hospitals, but the soldiers treated in them are in the same position as the patients in any other military hospital. The latter part of the hon. Member's question does not therefore arise.
Controller of Contracts
asked whether a new commercial expert has been appointed as Controller of Contracts in place of Sir George Gibb, who resigned, or whether the control has reverted to those who possessed it prior to the appointment of Sir George Gibb?
The making of contracts is centred now, as it was while Sir George Gibb was at the War Office, in the Director of Army Contracts. The present Director was appointed since the outbreak of war, on the strong recommendation of the President of the Board of Trade, as possessing wide knowledge of the manufacturing industries of the country. The function of supervision for which Sir George Gibb was appointed, at a time of great stress, has now reverted to the Financial Secretary. I would remind my hon. Friend that at the time of Sir George Gibb's appointment the War Office had not been relieved of the very heavy contract work connected with munitions. The pressure is now less extreme.
Khaki Purchases
asked whether those responsible for the over-buying of khaki and the forcing up of the cost of materials and khaki are still entrusted with the conduct of this business?
There is no evidence to show that the purchases of the War Department have caused subsequent rises in the cost of materials and khaki. The purchases in question were made after a careful review of the probable requirements of both British and Allied Forces and upon the advice of a number of the leading business experts in the country. The experts included a wool broker, a spinner, two manufacturers, and two merchants.
Will my hon. Friend have an investigation made into the whole of this business?
That is constantly engaging my attention.
Affiliation Orders
asked whether the accumulated arrears representing the difference between the weekly sum allowed under an affiliation order and the sum legally deducted from a soldier's pay for the maintenance of an illegitimate child, in cases where the first-mentioned sum is the larger, is paid out of the soldier's effects, or in any other way if the soldier is killed in action or dies of wounds or disease; and whether there is any provision made in the special report on naval and military pensions and grants for the maintenance of illegitimate children previously dependent on contributions made under affiliation orders?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative except that under Scottish Law the father's estate would be liable. The question of pensions for illegitimate children depends on circumstances, which will be for the consideration of the Statutory Committee now in course of formation.
German Proclamations (India)
asked the Secretary of State for India whether His Majesty's Government has any information regarding the dispatch by Germans from Shanghai to India of proclamations, purporting to be signed by the Sultan of Turkey, calling on Indian Mahomedans to join in a holy war against the Allies?
No official information has been received on this subject.
India (New Capital)
asked whether in war time a further sum of £267,000 is being this year spent in carrying on the work of building the new capital in Delhi; and, if so, whether under the circumstances this sum could be reduced?
Before the War the normal expenditure on new Delhi was taken at £666,000 a year. In the Budget for the current year provision to the extent of £267,000 only was made, and this was stated to be the lowest amount required to carry on work actually in progress and obviate the deterioration of plant and disbanding of establishment.
Union of Democratic Control
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a meeting of the Union of Democratic Control was broken up on the 29th ultimo, by an organised attack by soldiers and others provided with forged tickets; that for several days beforehand articles appeared in the "Daily Express" inciting to violence; and that the writer of the articles took a leading part in breaking up the meeting; and whether any steps will be taken by the Government to prevent the continuance of such incitements to lawlessness?
I have received a report on this matter from the City Police. It appears that the opposition to the meeting was so strong that the promoters did not persist in it. Police were in attendance, but they were not called on to deal with any breach of the peace. Articles on the subject of the meeting appeared in the "Daily Express," but do not appear to contain any incitement to violence. The police will, of course, do what the law requires of them to preserve order; but I cannot promise any special facilities.
Is it not very undesirable and contrary to Regulations that soldiers wearing His Majesty's uniform should be invited and organised in bands to lead the mob in acts of violence?
It is very undesirable for anybody to be invited to lead anybody to acts of violence. As regards the Army, of course the question is one of discipline, and, naturally, it should be addressed to the War Office.
I will put it down for Monday.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is a fact that these soldiers were called on to lead the mob?
I have no information as to that at all.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that forged tickets were issued in large numbers to these soldiers?
No, I am not aware.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received complaints that a London daily paper has repeatedly published incitements against the Union of Democratic Control and exhortations calculated to-lead to breaches of the peace, which have in fact occurred; whether he is aware that this paper is under the direction and control of a gentleman of alien origin named Blumenfield; and whether inquiries; will be made, or have already been made, into the nationality, character, and antecedents of Mr. Blumenfield?
I have dealt with the first point in my reply to the previous question. As regards Mr. Blumenfield, he was by birth a citizen of the United States. He came to this country in 1898, and was naturalised in 1907. The inquiries made at the time of his naturalisation were satisfactory as regards his character, and I have no reason to think there is any occasion for further inquiry.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this German has published a. book entitled "An Exile in England," showing clearly that he has not accepted this country fully as his country?
I was not aware of the fact; but even if the fact be as stated, I do not think that action would be necessary.
I thought that we had to be very careful about people with German names at this time.
Public Halls (Dancing)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that Caxton Hall, Westminster, and other similar buildings owned by municipalities licensed for music and dancing, are able to let their halls to persons who wish to hold private parties, who may send in their own wines, spirits, etc., and remain on the premises until three or four o'clock a.m.; and whether, having regard to the Defence of the Realm Act and the recently passed Clubs Act, he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to his question on the 4th November. I do not think there is any action for me to take in the matter under the Acts mentioned.
Prison Officers (Enlistment)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the total number of prison officers in England and Wales; how many have enlisted in the Navy and Army; how many of these have been killed or died of wounds; whether he is aware that the Prison Commissioners have strongly commended the depleted staffs of prisons for their sacrifice of annual leave and cheerful performance of extra duties; and will he cancel Standing Orders 711 and 713, which deprive prison officers of their right of free meeting and joint discussion of their grievances and conditions of service, and place them on the same basis as their fellow Civil servants in the Post Office?
The total number of male officers at present in the service is 2,739. Six hundred and seventeen are known to have enlisted, or their services have been lent to the Army or Navy. Of these, 34 have been killed or died of wounds. In addition to the 617, many more have been given permission to enlist, but reports of actual enlistment have not yet been received. It would not have been possible to allow so many enlistments had there not been a great falling-off in the prison population. On 28th July, 1914, the total population was 17,747. It is now only 11,149. The prison warders form a disciplined force, whose position corresponds more nearly to the Army, Navy, or Police, than to the ordinary Civil Service. The Standing Orders have been carefully considered and allow the warders ample opportunities of putting their views before the authorities, and I concur with my predecessors in thinking that these Standing Orders are right in the public interest and should be maintained.
Fire Brigade Men (Enlistment)
had given notice of the following question: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the question of the exemption of firemen in certain localities from enlistment in the Army; whether he is aware that general fire brigade work can for the most part be carried out by men over military age and that substitutes for firemen can be readily trained in from two to three months, the ordinary recruit course of the larger brigades occupying about six weeks; and whether, having regard to these facts, he will take steps to indicate to local authorities the advisability of promptly training a sufficient number of substitutes so that the enlistment of firemen may be encouraged and should not result in an unnecessary depletion of the staffs of local fire brigades?
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask whether he has considered the grave danger in cities like Bradford and other densely populated places of substituting an untrained staff of slow, old men in place of the young, athletic, active, thoroughly trained men who are now members of fire brigades?
The comparison between men of different ages rather depends on the different cases. I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers to questions on this subject given by the Under-Secretary of State for War on the 10th and 17th November. I understand the arrangement mentioned in those answers applies only to permanent firemen employed solely on fire brigade duty, and therefore the number affected, outside the London area, would appear to be very small. In London a large number of volunteers have already been trained, and I have no doubt other authorities will be ready to follow this example if they have not already done so. In reference to the point raised by the hon. Member for Bradford, the distinction to which he points is certainly one which is kept in mind in making any possible arrangements for substitution.
Local Sanitary Labour
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the serious position in which cleansing departments of local authorities are being placed by the depletion of labour for the collection and disposal of household refuse, including the contents of privies and middens; and whether he will take steps to ensure that an essential minimum number are retained, so as to prevent the outbreak of epidemics arising from insanitary conditions?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. It is obvious that a certain staff is necessary for the performance of essential sanitary work. If men engaged on this work, who cannot be replaced, are attested under the new recruiting scheme a claim should be made before the local tribunal for their relegation to later groups. This procedure is not, however, applicable to the case of men who resign their places under the local authority to enlist or take up other work.
National University (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland how many students matriculated in the National University, Ireland, in each of the years 1913, 1914, and 1915; how many of these students in each year were admited on the certificate of the Commissioners of Intermediate Education; and how many passed the university's own matriculation examination?
I am informed that the numbers of students matriculated in the National University of Ireland in 1913, 1914, and 1915 were 562, 694, and 743 respectively. Of these 107, 150, and 131 respectively matriculated on the results of the senior grade intermediate examination alone, and 453, 536, and 605 respectively matriculated by passing the university matriculation examination. The latter category includes a small proportion who matriculated on the results of the senior grade intermediate examination combined with the results of the university examination.
Royal Irish Constabulary (Irish Language)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland how many officers and members of the Royal Irish Constabulary are able to speak Irish and how many of such Irish-speaking officers and men are serving in the Irish-speaking districts?
The information asked for by the hon. Member is not available, and could not be obtained with accuracy without a systematic inquiry which could not usefully be undertaken at the present time.
Poaching Conviction, Inverness
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the action brought by Mackintosh of Mackintosh, Lord-Lieu-tent of the county of Inverness, against Donald Watt, a carter, who set a trap and caught a rabbit as a delicacy for an invalid child; whether he is aware that for killing one wild rabbit, of which there are hundreds of thousands on the Mackintosh estates, this workman was fined £l, with £l 1s. as expenses; and whether, in view of the fact that this workman has given three sons to the War and that one of them has been killed in action, he will take steps to have the sentence remitted?
The report I have received confirms the statements of my hon. Friend as to the facts of the case. I have decided to remit the penalty.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the two gamekeepers who gave evidence in this case in the Sheriff's Court are both stated to be within the military age? In view of the fact that numbers of able-bodied men who ought to be serving with the Colours are still employed not only on the Mackintosh estate, but on others in the North of Scotland—
The hon. Member had better give notice of that question.
Will any action be taken with respect to Mackintosh of Mackintosh, especially having regard to his position as Lord Lieutenant of the county?
Accident at Gledholt, London and North-Western Railway
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether an accident occurred on 8th June last in the London and North-Western Railway tunnel between Gledholt and Huddersfield, resulting in Platelayer Arthur Kaye being killed and Platelayer J. A. Haigh being injured, and that the foreman of the jury expressed the opinion that lack of knowledge of the single-line working, which prevailed at the time, led to the accident; and whether he will consider the advisability in a case of this kind of a Board of Trade inquiry being ordered into the causes of the accident?
The Board have been in communication with the railway company regarding this accident. Single-line working was not in operation on the section of line on which these men were at work, but on an adjoining section over which they were passing. The company have issued an instruction to all platelayers that where single-line working is in operation they must warn all persons whom they see on the line. An inquiry does not appear to be necessary.
National Insurance Act
Panel Chemists (Scotland)
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether his attention has been drawn to the allegation published by the Pharmaceutical Standing Committee for Scotland that the recent official statement issued to panel chemists in Scotland by the Joint Committee is disingenuous and baseless; how many local committees of panel chemists are there in Scotland; how many of them have agreed to the new tariff; and how is it proposed to maintain the supply of drugs in areas where panel chemists decline to do business on the reduced suggested terms?
Yes, Sir, my attention has been drawn to the allegation mentioned in the first part of the question, which has, I hope, been disposed of to the hon. Member's satisfaction by my reply to his question on this subject on the 24th ultimo, my statement in the House last night, and the letter addressed to each chemist on the panel in Scotland, of which I have sent him a copy. There are fifty-six insurance committee areas in Scotland, but the decision as to the continuance of service for 1916 rests with each individual chemist, and full and precise information as to their intentions is not yet available. The existing arrangements remain in force in any event until the 31st instant, and I am not without hope that it may yet prove possible to avoid the necessity of terminating those arrangements, pending the suggested inquiry into the chemists' further claims. In the meantime the necessity of maintaining the supply of drugs in any eventuality is not lost sight of.
Is my hon. Friend not well aware that the chemists generally in Scotland are in antagonism to him on this point, and why does he suggest it is in doubt?
I do not know that I suggested that. I was asked for precise information as to the action of the chemists, and I have given as much precise information as I can.
Beef Trust, Chicago
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state the present position of the protracted negotiations between the Somerset House authorities and certain firms trading in this country, and known as the Beef Trust of Chicago, regarding the non-payment of Income Tax; and whether any proceedings have been or are likely to be taken against the firms in question in order to cover the arrears of Income Tax due from them?
The negotiations referred to are still proceeding.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the proceedings have been prolonged over a matter of three years? Is it not time some decision was arrived at?
I was not aware that the period was as long as that, but I quite agree that an early decision is very desirable.
Is it proposed to drop the proceedings and bring these firms under the operations of the Finance Act?
The law with regard to Income Tax is a very doubtful factor. The hon. Member would be better advised to leave the proceedings to go on.
CLAUSE 1.—(Rules as to Indictments.)
The rules contained in the First Schedule to this Act with respect to indictments shall have effect as if enacted in this Act, but those rules may be added to, varied, or annulled by further rules made by the Rule Committee under this Act.
I beg to move, to leave out the words "with respect to indictments."
I think that these words are mere surplusage. In Sub-section (2) of Clause 2 there is a reference to "rules" without this qualification with respect to indictments. If they wanted in the one place they are wanted in the other, and if they are not wanted in one place they are not wanted in the other. I do not attach very great importance to the Amendment, but I think, for the sake of clearness and cleanness of drafting, I am justified in moving it.
I think these words should stand in the Bill. It is very desirable to have a description of the rules, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will not persist with the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 2.—(Powers of Rule Committee.)
(1) There shall be established for the purposes of this Act a Rule Committee consisting of the Lord Chief Justice of England, a judge of the High Court, a chairman of Quarter Sessions, a recorder, a clerk of assize, a clerk of the peace, and another person having experience in criminal procedure, appointed in each case by the Lord Chief Justice.
(2) The Rule Committee shall have power from time to time, subject to the approval of the Lord Chancellor, to make rules varying or annulling the rules contained in the First Schedule to this Act and to make further rules with respect to the matters dealt with in those rules, and those rules shall have effect subject to any modifications or additions so made.
(3) Any rules made by the Rule Committee shall be laid as soon as may be before both Houses of Parliament and if within forty days on which either House has sat since the rules were so laid before the House a petition is presented to His Majesty praying that the rules or any part of them may be annulled His Majesty may thereupon by Order in Council annul the same, and the same shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything done thereunder.
(4) The term of office of any person who is a member of the Committee by virtue of appointment shall be such as may be specified in the appointment.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "England" ["Lord Chief Justice of England"], insert the words "for the time being and of."—[ Mr. King. ]
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "subject to the approval of the Lord Chancellor."
I hold a very great respect for the Lord Chancellor, especially when he belongs to my own party, as I think two or three have been in succession. I want to relieve the Lord Chancellor of a duty which I think is rather unnecessary and may possibly be unpleasant to him, and which I think under all the circumstances we ought not to press upon him. There is no reason in my opinion why those rules should be subject to the approval of the Lord Chancellor. The Lord Chancellor is not always a criminal lawyer, and I was told the other day that in the case of two of them recently neither had ever seen an indictment. That emphasises the fact that they are not considered by criminal lawyers to be high authorities in that department of law. I believe I shall get a good deal of support for this Amendment.
These words were inserted after very careful consideration, and I think they ought to stand. The Lord Chancellor is head of the judiciary, and he is quite willing to undertake the task.
made, in opposition to the Amendment, some observations which were inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
4.0 P.M.
I would urge upon my hon. Friend the desirability of not proceeding with this Amendment, for a reason different from that already alleged. By this Clause we are proposing to give to the Committee named in Sub-section (1) the power of altering rules under legislative enactments, and of making others. That is a very dangerous, and I may almost say reckless, procedure. The personal rule of the Lord Chancellor will mitigate to some extent the power conferred on the Committee. It will have a steadying influence, and probably limit the evil which, I think, lurks within the four corners of this Bill.
This is a case where the Lord Chancellor can override the decisions of the Committee. That will tend to make the deliberations of that body more or less nugatory. I do not know what is the case in connection with the law, but in business matters, if you get a board subject to any man's veto, the inevitable result is that they take their responsibilities very lightly. It may not be so in this case, and, if my hon. and learned Friends think there is nothing in that point, I will not press it. I rather gathered that, in my hon. Friend's opinion, all that this body does will be bad or dangerous. If that is so, the more checks we set up the better. I notice that one of the members of the Rule Committee is to be "another person having experience in criminal procedure." That may be an ex-convict. I understand that in many cases the prisoner at the bar has corrected the judge or magistrate on the bench, and told him that he was imposing a sentence which was not in accordance with the law, and the prisoner has been proved to have superior knowledge to that possessed by those who were conducting the proceedings. If my hon. and learned Friend thinks his proposal makes for liberty and for protection, I will support him if he will move an additional check.
I am sure that great care will be taken in appointing this Committee, and I should have hoped that they would have been able to make such rules as are required without the veto of the Lord Chancellor. They will be carefully chosen, and no doubt the rules which they make will be only those which are dictated by experience. But the Lord Chancellor is the head of the English Judiciary, and it is usual that rules should have his approval. If his veto were not included, it would be a substantial departure from the ordinary practice; therefore, if the Committee which considered the matter think it desirable that the rules should be subject to the approval of the Lord Chancellor, I think we ought to support them.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Subsection (3), after the word "thereunder," to insert the words "or to the power of the Rule Committee to make any fresh rules."
These words are, I believe, common form, They make it quite clear that the annulment of any rules by Orders in Council does not prevent the Rule Committee from making fresh rules not open to objection. The words are frequently inserted in other cases, and I hope they will be inserted here.
I am advised that these words are not really required. If my hon. Friend will look at Sub-section (2), he will find that the Committee have power to make rules from time to time, and then to make further rules. Those words are very wide, and carry the power to make fresh rules after rules have been made and disallowed.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 3.—(Indictments Not to be Open to Objection if in Accordance with Rules.)
Nothwithstanding any rule of law or practice, an indictment shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, net be open to objection in respect of its form or contents if it is framed in accordance with the rules under this Act.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I should like an explanation of the words "subject to the provisions of this Act." I do not see that they are in any way necessary, or to what they refer. What are the provisions of the Bill which would modify the general provisions of this Clause? I do not think there are any. Unless the words have some clear and definite meaning it is undesirable that they should stand part of the Clause.
made a reply which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 4 ( Joinder of Charges in the Same Indictment ) and CLAUSE 5 ( Orders for Amendment on Indictment, Separate Trial, and Postponement of Trial ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 6.—(Costs of Defective or Redundant Indictments.)
Where it appears to the Court that an indictment contains unnecessary matter, or is of unnecessary length, or is materially defective in any respect, the Court may make such order for the payment of that part of the costs of the prosecution which has been incurred by reason of the indictment so containing unnecessary matter, or being of unnecessary length, or being defective as the Court thinks fit.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I wish to know what extended power is given to the Court under this Clause. If it is not an extension, what is the object of inserting the provision? If it is an extension, in what particular way is it an extension?
The object of the Clause is to make it clear that costs unnecessarily incurred will not be given. For example, there are prosecutions initiated by private prosecutors who on some occasions are allowed their costs. If those private prosecutors incur needless costs, by reason of an unnecessarily long indictment, or something of that kind, they ought not to have those costs included in the costs allowed to them. The only object is to give the Court discretion to disallow unnecessary or wasteful costs.
Surely the Clause means that the Court shall have power to make an order, not for the payment, but for the non-payment of such costs. It means that the person who is in error shall pay the costs. But is that quite clear from the wording of the Clause?
I will consider that point.
I think the point raised by my hon. and learned Friend is well worthy of consideration. Power is given to the Court to deal with the costs of the prosecution, so far as they may be unnecessarily increased by verbiage, and I think that that power should be explicitly stated in the Bill dealing with the new form of indictment. It think this is a proper warning to practitioners and other persons concerned that they should adapt themselves to the reasonable requirements of this Bill, and that they may render themselves liable for any infringement in letter or spirit of the Bill.
I think it is a salutary rule to order the prosecution to pay in cases where there has been immaterial matter introduced.
That is not in.
I think it is. The Clause reads:—
"Where it appears to the Court that an indictment contains unnecessary matter, or is of unnecessary length, or is materially defective in any respect, the Court may make such order for the payment of that part of the costs of the prosecution which has been incurred by reason of the indictment so containing unnecessary matter.…."
As I read that Clause, I clearly understood that it would be permissible to order that part of the costs should be paid by the prosecution under the circumstances stated. In dealing with this class of indictment, though they are nominally in the name of the Crown, in substance they are put forward by private prosecutors. One cannot but be aware that there are many malicious prosecutions, or at any rate many spiteful prosecutions, conducted at great length, more particularly libel actions and cases of that sort, and I think it is desirable that the Court should have complete power to penalise anybody who at undue length presents an indictment or unnecessarily extends the case. I certainly read this Clause as giving the judge power, if he so chooses, to order the prosecutor to pay the costs thus incurred.
Might I be permitted to point out that while we accept the promise of the Solicitor-General, it would be most useful to the Committee if he would tell us what precisely is the result aimed at. Even more important at present than the words chosen to carry out the wish and desire of the Government is an intimation as to what is the desire of the Government. We might then discuss the matter in Committee. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman means that the prosecutor may be called upon to pay these costs, then I would support those who criticise the Bill; if he only means that the prosecutor is to be deprived of costs then I agree the Clause ought to stand.
The difficulty which has arisen is, I think, in the use of the word "for." It is not quite clear whether the proviso that the Court may make such an order for the payment of that part of the costs is intended to include disallowance. I suggest that instead of the word "for" the words "as regards," or some such words, should be inserted. If the rendering was that the "Court may make such order 'as to' the payment of that part of the costs," that would meet the difficulty which has been raised.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
Clause 7 ( Provision as to Vexatious Indictments Acts ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 8.—(Savings and Interpretation.)
(1) Nothing in this Act or the rules there-under shall affect the law or practice relating to the jurisdiction of a court or the place where an accused person can be tried, nor prejudice or diminish in any respect the obligation to establish by evidence according to law any acts, omissions, or intentions which are legally necessary to constitute the offence with which the person accused is charged, nor otherwise affect the laws of evidence in criminal cases.
(2) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the expression "the court" means the court before which any indictable offence is tried or prosecuted.
(3) The provisions of this Act relating to indictments shall apply to criminal informations in the High Court and inquisitions, and also to any plea, replication, or other criminal pleading, with such modifications as may be made by rules under this Act.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "laws" ["the laws of evidence"], and to insert instead thereof the word "law."
It is just a question of expression as to whether "the laws of evidence" is definite enough, or whether, as I believe, the proper expression should be "the law of evidence."
Is it worth while to pursue the Amendment? The laws of evidence are contained partly in statutes and partly in the common law.
I think this is just one of the things in which there ought to be uniformity all through. However, I beg to ask leave to withdraw.
I think there is really good reason for substituting the word "law" for the word "laws," because, as the Solicitor-General has pointed out, the law of evidence is contained partly in statutes and partly in traditional practice. Therefore, while the word "'law' of evidence" covers the whole ground in theory, the word "'laws' of evidence" does not, in my opinion, cover the whole ground. It might by the first tribunal, at any rate, be understood to refer only to those laws of evidence contained in statutes.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), after the word "requires," to insert, in operation, and when we raise a definition on behalf of one of the first prisoners brought up in connection with such a Statute we will be told that the Indictments Act of 1915 does not apply at all. In order to provide against such a terrible misfortune I hope that this Amendment will be accepted.
I understand the object of the hon. Member, but I think it would be unwise to insert the words proposed. I have no doubt whatever that the language is effective for all purposes. That being so, I cannot add words which are not deemed necessary by those who have considered and framed the Bill. I think it would be wiser to leave the Bill as it stands.
I venture to hope that the hon. Member will not press this Amendment. In a criminal offence an indictment is always known as such, whereas in a civil case it is an action. That being so the word is comprehensive, not only as regards indictments relating to offences under Statutes now, but offences created in the future. I suggest that we have got quite sufficient Clauses and definitions without adding to them when we are endeavouring to simplify procedure, a thing we all desire.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), at end, to insert,
"(4) Nothing in this Act shall affect the provisions of an Act passed in the first year of Queen Anne of which the title commences with the words "An Act for explaining a clause," and ends with the words "His Majesties Royal Person and Government," and which relates to the effect of the death of the Sovereign."
I would appeal to the Solicitor-General to accept this Amendment. I am told that it is necessary because the Statute referred to provides that indictments shall continue to be effective notwithstanding the death of the Sovereign.
I appreciate very much the care and attention which my hon. Friend has given to this Bill. He has a number of Amendments, of which I have been able to accept one already, and there are others that I may be able to accept. But I would suggest to him that this is really unnecessary. The Statute which he has discovered, or rediscovered, provides that indictments shall not be affected by the death of the Sovereign, and such an enactment cannot possibly be affected by a modification of the forms in common use. I hope he will not press this, because I assure him that according to he best advice I have been able to obtain, and in accordance with my own views, the Amendment is not necessary to save the effect of the Statute.
As the hon. and learned Member near to me (Mr. Hohler) assures me that the Solicitor-General is quite right, I beg to ask again for leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 9.—(Repeal, Extent, Short Title, and Commencement.)
(1) The enactments specified in the Second Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent mentioned in the third column of that Schedule.
(2) This Act shall not extend to Scotland or Ireland.
(3) This Act may be cited as the Indictments Act, 1915.
(4) This Act shall come into operation on the first day of March, nineteen hundred and sixteen, but shall not apply to indictments in the case of persons committed for trial before that date, or to the trial of any such person.
, who had an Amendment on the Paper, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "or Ireland":
My Amendment was to apply this Bill to Ireland. Since handing in the Amendment I have had the opportunity of more mature consideration of the Bill and the Schedules. I have also had the opportunity of consulting with the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland, and I have come to the conclusion that it would be most undesirable to apply this Bill to Ireland. We have no Court of Criminal Appeal in Ireland as there is in England, and consequently the Bill has not been considered by any body of public opinion in Ireland. For these and other reasons, I think it would be undesirable to move my Amendment, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (4), to leave out the word "sixteen" ["nineteen hundred and sixteen"], and to insert instead thereof the word "seventeen."
The object of the Amendment is to delay the Bill coming into force. Of course there is much in this Bill which is desirable, but any change in procedure of this kind requires learning and a certain amount of experience, and involves extra work at first. In the long run, of course, it may be an advantage, but when well-known precedents are used every day without the slightest trouble a change into other forms must make extra work at the outset. In the case of nearly all clerks of the peace at the present time they are working short-handed owing to clerks being at the War and so forth, and if a change of this kind is brought in it will mean a very considerable amount of work at first. With the ordinary form of indictment the clerks of the peace are perfectly accustomed to deal, but it will require a considerable amount of time to satisfy themselves that they have got the indictment in order under this new system, and for that reason I venture to suggest it may be desirable to postpone the bringing into force of this Act until a time when people may have more opportunity to get hold of the details of the new form. Possibly the right hon. and learned Member may remember that when a very similar form of change was made in civil procedure some forty years ago no doubt there was considerable difficulty in adapting the ways of practitioners to the new form, and the difficulties lasted for a very long time after the simplified forms had been brought in. I would suggest, therefore, that, before bringing in such a sweeping change, there should be some delay until the full staffs are back to work.
If this Amendment were adopted it would mean that the operation of the Bill would be postponed until the year after next. It is quite true, as my hon. and learned Friend says, that when a change was previously made questions did arise which had to be settled by the judges, and no doubt that took some months. But all those questions arose after the rules were in operation, and until that has happened we cannot have these questions settled. My own view is that these rules will not give rise to a number of questions of that kind. I cannot say there will be none, but I am certain there will be very few, and the simplifying of forms will make it easy for the clerks concerned to become accustomed to the use of the new forms. I venture to think the time allowed between now and next March will be ample for those gentlemen, who are very experienced in these matters and very quick to understand the provisions of any Statutes or rules and to acquaint themselves with their provisions, and it would be rather extravagant to allow them a period of fifteen months to consider what, after all, is a short Statute. I think it would take a great deal away from the effect of. this proposal if its operation were postponed for so long a time, or anything like the time my hon. and learned Friend suggests.
I agree, if I may say so, with the remarks of the right hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken. I think if my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Rawlinson) considers he will regard the postponement suggested as really too long. I think the 1st March next allows sufficient time for the new procedure to be thoroughly understood by those clerks of the peace who generally draw indictments, and I should not have added anything but that I want to take this opportunity of reminding the right hon. and learned Gentleman that on the Second Reading of this Bill I threw out the suggestion, to which the Attorney-General acceded, that the Rule Committee to be established by this Bill under Clause 2 should consider, and themselves approve of, the Schedule before it comes into operation. And I should like now an undertaking from the Solicitor-General that the Rule Committee will be called into being before the Act comes into operation, so that they may have sufficient time to consider the operation of these rules before then. The Clause giving powers to the Committee provides, as I pointed out on the last occasion, for making new rules, and I understood the right hon. and learned Gentleman to accede to the suggestion I made that they should in fact approve of the Schedule before it conies into operation. That involves that the new Committee should be appointed before the Act becomes operative, and I should like an undertaking, if the Solicitor-General can give me one, that it will in fact be done, and that rules and forms will not become operative until they have received the assent of the Rule Committee.
When we have before us what I regard as an extremely useful measure of law reform, and an appeal is made by an hon. and learned Member to a right hon. and learned Member for twelve months' delay, I think the situation is getting dangerous. I hope the Solicitor-General will not accede to the request, because, as the right hon. and learned Member has stated, there is no reason to believe that the person whose technical assistance is necessary in this matter are not thoroughly well qualified to do what is necessary before 1st March, 1916. If we delay it for another year we are, in my opinion, and I believe in the opinion of the Committee, depriving the country of a good reform for another twelve months.
I understood the case made out for this Bill was that it was very much better for the accused person on his trial—that there was a much better chance of fair play—but if it is to be argued that the date on which it is to come into operation is solely to be considered from the point of view of the time it will take to become experienced with it, then we are rather losing sight of the main purpose of the Bill, which is the good of the general public. My difficulty in supporting the Amendment is this, that I do not know of any machinery, particularly during the War, by which people can become familiarised with the new provision until proceedings are taken under it. I think the quickest way in which people get to know that a certain Act is in operation is really from the results. We have no machinery in this country to promulgate laws, to explain them in the schools, or in any other way to get them before the public. They are regarded as knowing all about the Acts, and therefore I am in a difficulty as to delay on this ground, because I am not sure if we put in a year later we really would be better off. But what I am anxious about is that the main purpose of the Bill, that the accused person shall have a better assurance of fair play, shall not be lost sight of. If I am right in the view that he will not know any better in March, 1917, than in March, 1916, then he has no interest in the postponement.
I cannot support this Amendment, but I should like to ask the consideration of the Solicitor-General to this point. No doubt this date has been very carefully considered, but it occurs to me that what may possibly have been overlooked—I am not sure whether I am right or wrong—is that, for instance, the Assizes may at that very date be in progress through the various counties. I think it would be very undesirable that the earlier part of the Assize should proceed under the old system, and the latter part, by virtue of this Act, proceed on the new system. I therefore suggest, without in any way desiring to postpone the Act, that it is a matter for the Solicitor-General whether or not that point has been considered.
I hope the Solicitor-General will not accept the Amendment. I have not yet said anything on this Bill, and of course this is not the time for a Second Reading speech; but I may say this: I have had considerable experience in regard to the drawing of indictments, and I have always looked upon it as a subject crying for reform. The Solicitor-General will remember that this is not really a new idea at all. The greatest criminal judge we have had, Sir James Stephen, brought forward a Bill very much of this description long ago. This question of indictments is a very great abuse. In some cases you have yards of indictment. I have seen them hang over the grand jury gallery. It is not the least use to the prisoner. It is a matter which has for years been calling out for reform, and certainly in the interests of the accused person, and of everybody, except the lawyers who had to draw the indictment—I know myself it was not at all a bad thing, but rather lucrative to have these indictments to draw—I must say I think this reform ought to be pressed on as soon as possible. I hope, therefore, the Solicitor-General will not accept this Amendment.
I want to deal with the point raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite. What he desired, I understand, was that the Committee to be formed under the Bill should be appointed, and should have an opportunity of meeting and considering the Rules before they come into actual operation. My right hon. Friend the Attorney-General said that should be done if possible. Of course my hon. and learned Friend understands that the appointment will be made by the Lord Chief Justice, and, therefore, I cannot undertake that the appointment will be made by a certain date; but I can undertake that he will be asked to appoint the Committee, and will be asked to cause the Committee to meet to consider the Rules, and to see whether any change ought, in the opinion of the Committee, to be made, before they come into operation. The only point I want to add is this: As the Bill stands, it is to come into operation on 1st March next. I think it is right that under the Interpretation Act a Committee to be appointed under an Act can be appointed before the Act comes wholly into operation, and, if so, the Bill as it stands will be consistent with the object he has in view. But I will consider that before the Report stage, and, if necessary, we will do something to make that effective.
I understand that the Committee will not have any power to make new rules until the Bill comes into operation, and then the Schedule will also come into operation.
As I have already pointed out, that depends upon the construction which is placed upon the Interpretation Act. I will consult the authorities on this point, and if necessary make a change.
Amendment negatived.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I wish to ask if there is any intention to follow up this measure with a Bill applying similar proposals to Scotland and Ireland? I know there is some difference in the legal procedure of Scotland and Ireland, and I want to know if we may expect at some subsequent stage a Bill which will do for Scotland and Ireland what this Bill does for England.
The point has been considered in regard to Scotland, and something of the same kind was done in 1887, under which they can form Schedules somewhat similar to those we are now proposing. With regard to Ireland, the point was raised by the hon. Member for Cork, and it has since been very carefully considered. The Irish Office has considered the point, and they take the view that they would rather not have Ireland dealt with in this Bill. No doubt the Chief Secretary for Ireland will consider the matter, and if he thinks a new measure ought to be introduced dealing with Ireland that can be done.
Question put, and agreed to.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Statement of Offence.)
Every indictment shall state the essential elements of the offence charged.
Clause brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
I think a proposal of this kind ought to be a substantial part of the Bill. I find in the rules, on page 6, sub-rule (3), rule (3), the following words:—
(3) The statement of offence shall describe the offence shortly in ordinary language, avoiding as far as possible the use of technical terms, and without necessarily stating all the essential elements of the offence, and if the offence charged is one created by Statute, shall contain a reference to the Section of the Statute creating the offence.
It seems to me that the Rule Committee ought to have no power to alter the statement. The prisoners are very rarely familiar with the law, and it is most essential that they should have before them in the indictment or in the statement of offence a clear statement of what the Crown has to prove against a prisoner on trial, in order that he may be able to meet every point. I see no good reason why that should not be done. In an indictment of this kind it is very essential that every point necessary for the prosecution to prove should be set out. I think we ought to confer no powers on the Rule Committee to whittle away the principle that the prisoner has a right to know clearly the charge made against him and the case he has to meet. Under this Bill, if we pass it in its present form, it is clear that the Rule Committee, or those who have prepared these rules, have assumed that there would be a right under the powers given them to make rules to say that it is immaterial to set out every essential element in the prisoner's favour. I think we ought to insist that in the indictment there should be a clear statement of the offence, and particulars giving the essentials of the charge made against the prisoner. In my judgment to omit to do so only leads to a slipshod practice. The Court of Criminal Appeal is a living object-lesson on this point. Human nature fails at times, and mistakes are made, and I think it is exceedingly desirable not to suggest that in our criminal law we are going to allow any slipshod practice.
I hope this new Clause will be accepted, for I feel certain that it appeals to the sense of liberty and justice and straightforward interpretation and dealing with the laws of the land. I very much hope that it will be accepted.
I believe we are now dealing with a very useful and valuable measure, and I hope we shall do nothing in this Bill to interfere with what I believe will be the main effect of it, namely, to reduce technicalities, save time, and make things clear, and then the prisoner and the prosecution will know what they are doing, and they will be able to do it in an intelligent manner. If the effect of this Bill should be to relieve the prosecution of the grave duty which is now incumbent upon them to define accurately and clearly, for the benefit of the prisoner and in the interests of liberty, the precise charge made against him, and which he has to meet perhaps at the cost of his life, or at any rate of his liberty, then I think we shall have done a bad day's work. Even if it should be suggested that this proposal is unnecessary, and that on the true construction of the Act it is superfluous, which I do not think it is, yet I believe it would be a wise and proper course for us to take to adopt this Amendment, the more so because we have largely delegated our power, to my regret, to an extremely important and powerful Committee, and they have power by altering the Schedules really to destroy the law that we are proposing to make to-day and largely substitute a law which they make themselves. That involves, in my judgment, a deplorable abdication of the functions of this House, and that is the reason why we should say to this Committee, "Thus far shalt thou go, and no farther." Therefore, I think it should be an instruction to them that every indictment shall set forth the essential elements of the offence for which the prisoner is charged.
5.0 P.M.
This is a matter of great importance and ought to be very carefully considered. I want the Committee to consider what this proposal means. This new Clause introduces into the Statute a rule which is not now in any Statute whatever, that every indictment shall state all the essential elements of the offence charged. It may be that if you introduce this Clause into the Bill you will do something which is fatal to the whole object of the measure, because you will open a door through which every defendant may, by raising technical points and questions as to what is or what is not essential, destroy the indictment. Let me ask the Committee to consider for a moment how far this proposal may possibly lead. An objection may be made that the indictment has something omitted from it which ought to be there—some technical words which at common law form an essential element of the offence charged. Take, for example, a case of stealing. A man charged with stealing has a chance of get ting off on a technical ground, that the indictment does not state "steals, takes and carries away." Everybody understands what stealing means. Even the least instructive and experienced prisoner, when he is charged with stealing, knows what it means, and it seems to me an absurdity that because you charge him with stealing and not with taking and carrying away as well that you should risk the indictment being destroyed. If this Amendment is carried, that will be the result. There are many other cases equally absurd which will undoubtedly come under these rules. There might be a case of a charge of false pretences and you might omit to say in the indictment "with intent to defraud," or some other technical omission, and you might have the indictment quashed. That is one of the things we hope to prevent by this Bill. I quite agree you must make sure that the offence is so charged that the man knows that with which he is charged, and for that purpose we propose that in the indictment there shall be a clear statement of the offence charged and particulars of the offence. If those conditions are not carried out, then, of course, the defendant may get off on that ground; but so long as those requirements are carried out it seems to me very dangerous to say in the Statute that the technical rules shall survive, and that what lawyers may hold to be at common law or otherwise the essential elements of the offence shall be stated in the indictment. The point is that you must make clear to the defendant that with which he is charged. I am quite sure that everybody occupying the position of a judge will insist that those requirements are carried out, but I am very much afraid, although I appreciate the intention with which it is moved, and I quite agree the arguments supporting it have weight, if this Clause were added to the Bill it would destroy it. In any case, it ought not to come in the Act itself. It ought to come in the rules. I know it may be said that it might be altered by the Rule Committee, but at all events you would give to the Rule Committee the opportunity of seeing how the rules worked. To put this in the Statute and stereotype for all time this requirement that all the essential elements shall be found upon the paper under which the prisoner is charged would continue many of the difficulties of the present law, and would not in the least assist the prisoner to understand that with which he was charged, because the words used are often extremely puzzling to him. I have watched the demeanour of men charged in the present form with "feloniously" and "burglariously" doing this, that, and the other, and they do not in the least know what it is with which they are charged, but, if you charge a man with "burglary" or with "stealing," he knows exactly what it is with which he is charged. I therefore hope that the Committee will assist us in carrying out the main object of the Bill. I am quite sure that this Clause will have a contrary effect. It is far better to leave the matter to be dealt with and considered in the rules.
I confess that I am thoroughly unconvinced by the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman. I am wholly opposed to technicalities, but I find a very useful provision, Clause 5, which enables the judge to amend any such technicalities. That point, therefore, clearly goes. We have extended the very limited powers of amending the indictment which at present exists, and that gets rid of any danger of any such technical objection being successfully taken. We are asked to remit it to the rules. Apparently those will only have effect so long as they are in existence. Under this Bill we give power to the Rules Committee to alter, repeal and revoke, and to make new rules which are to become effective after lying forty days on the Table of both Houses of Parliament. I may say, as showing the mind of those concerned in their construction, that they actually propose in these very rules to say that this thing is not necessary. Yet we are asked to put it back in rules which they may alter tomorrow, and we know how little power we have with regard to matters laid on the Table of both Houses of Parliament. Practically we have no opportunity of doing anything, and they become law without question.
I do press this Amendment. Take the case of obtaining money by false pretences. The prisoner under this Bill can get a copy of the indictment. He looks at it and reads it. He is told that which is contained in the indictment is the offence which he has got to meet. He may have a perfectly good defence on the question of "inducement," but in the offence, as charged and presented to him, there is no statement of that very material matter. He therefore pleads guilty to the indictment, thinking, in his ignorance, it is the law. As the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) has pointed out, it is very difficult to know what is the law. No one but a fool would assume that he knew the law, I frankly admit that the more I try to learn it the less I seem to know. When you are dealing with a man brought face to face with the law for the first time it is essential that he should be told what are the essential elements of the offence with which he is charged. As I understand the Bill, the indictment will consist of two parts, a statement of the offence, and the particulars of the offence. That is all I ask, and I say we ought not to depart from that ground. We have given to the presiding judge entire discretion to amend the indictment on any technical points that may be taken. It will not have to go before the grand jury again. Speaking for myself, I shall strongly press the Amendment, and I hope that I shall receive the support of the Committee.
I am sure the whole Committee are at one in the desire to protect the prisoner by having it made perfectly clear to him what is the offence with which he is charged. The only question is, how it shall be properly carried out. I am in sympathy with the desire expressed by the hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Hohler), but even when he was moving his Amendment I confess I had great doubts whether the words he had chosen would not do more harm than good. A good deal of what fell from the Solicitor-General had occurred to me. I am afraid that the words the hon. Member has chosen will give rise to a return of the very aged technicalities from which it is the great object of this Bill to escape. I foresee endless arguments upon the question of what is an essential element of an offence. An ingenious counsel will spend hours and quote endless authorities to try and persuade the judge that "intent," or "the place where the act is supposed to have been committed" is an essential element of the offence, and must be stated. I am afraid, by using the words "essential elements" you will defeat your whole object and contradict some of the forms which appear in the Schedule, or, at any rate, throw them into doubt. I would, therefore, suggest to the hon. Member, if he is desirous of emphasising the point, that the real offence with which a prisoner is charged should be made clear to him, whether he could not adopt some such words as these: "Every indictment should state in clear language what is the offence with which the prisoner is charged." If you use some simple words of that kind, you escape the pitfalls which lie in the use of the words "essential elements." I fear, if you use those words as part of the Statute, they will control all the forms of the Schedule and rule the whole procedure, and the indictment will be bad unless it sets out on the face of it the "essential elements" of the offence. You will raise up again half of the difficulties which it is the object of this Bill to get rid of. We want simplification of procedure joined with a reasonable clearness, so that a person can understand that with which he is charged, but if you insert these words I believe you will return to the condition of things which this Act seeks to amend.
This is really to my mind the vital Clause of the Bill. Though there is no Statute enforcing the right of a prisoner to have the charge clearly laid before him, it is certainly the immemorable practice in common law that the charge, either by indictment or otherwise, should be clearly made against him. There have been cases in which charges have been set aside on the ground that the offence has not been clearly set out in the indictment, and we shall be parting with a very great power unless we put in some Clause here insisting on the offence being set out. The hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) said he was looking forward to this Bill being of great advantage to the unskilled person, and the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, in the course of his remarks, instanced the offence of burglary. He said everybody knew what constituted burglary; but is that the case? Does everybody know that it is an essential requirement that the entry into the house or premises must be by night, and that the breaking into the house must be for the purpose of stealing? It is not burglary to enter a house during the night hours merely for the purpose of lying down and getting a rest; that is another kind of offence. Again, the entry must be made between 9 p.m. and 6 a.m., and I doubt if it is so exceedingly clear to the lay mind what constitutes the offence of burglary. I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is perfectly plain.
Again, there is the offence of manslaughter. We find that that is to be stated somewhat in this form, "that A. B., of— in the county of —killed J. S." What does the lay person gather from that? There are lots of cases in which a person may kill another without being guilty of manslaughter. It may be that while he is carefully driving a bicycle or motor car another person runs across the road and is knocked down and killed, without any sort of blame attaching to the driver of the vehicle. He is not guilty, because he has not been negligent, and therefore, although he has killed J. S., he cannot be convicted of manslaughter. How is a layman to know what is the offence charged against him? The use of the word "unlawful," or some similar term, might be of some assistance. The hon. Member for Islington (Mr. Radford) speaking in absolutely good faith, said he was looking forward to important reforms in this direction. But I think he omitted to point out that a change might not necessarily be of benefit to the person to whom the change would apply, and, therefore, making a change, it is well to look carefully into the matter and see that it really carries out the intention aimed at. Charges against persons should be put as plainly as they possibly can. They should give the substance of the offence, and what is necessary to make a prisoner guilty of the offence with which he is charged.
I never intended to express an opinion as to whether this Bill would have the effect of favouring the defence in criminal charges. All I desire is that justice shall be done, and done speedily and clearly and without question. I am quite prepared to admit that this Bill may in some respects tend, not to the escape of prisoners charged, but to making their conviction less easy. I am not here to speak entirely on behalf of the criminal classes; I am speaking for the general public. With regard to the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Hohler), I am still hesitating whether that ought not to be carried. But I am strongly impressed by what was said by the Solicitor-General. I know he has had a long experience as chairman of Quarter Sessions, and he is an expert in this, as well as in other branches of the law. He put forward a very ingenious argument, to the effect that if this Clause were accepted we should, unconsciously and accidentally, as it were, bring back the old evils which led to those monstrous indictments of which some of my hon. and learned Friends have such happy recollections. But I think that in his argument a little of the old habit of the advocate came back to the Solicitor-General. He overstated his case.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) says a prisoner is entitled to know the "substance" of the offence alleged. Another hon. and learned Member has urged that he should be told the "nature" of the offence, and the hon. and learned Member for Chatham wants him to be informed of the "essential elements" of the offence. But they all agree that the prisoner ought to know something more than is provided for by this Bill, and that he ought to have it provided in the Act of Parliament, and not in rules which may be from time to time abrogated, and changed, and re-introduced by the decision of the Rules Committee. If hon. Members will look at the Schedule to the Bill, which contains the forms of the charge or indictment, they will see what provision is made to meet this case, and I think they will consider that the speech of the Solicitor-General rather exaggerated the difficulty. They would also be of opinion, I think, that this new Clause would not really lead to so retrograde a course as reviving the old system of indictments. Still, it seems to be agreed that the prisoner ought to know the nature and substance of the offence charged against him. Perhaps these words are less open to objection than "essential elements." We want some form of words which would give the prisoner an opportunity of making a fair defence. I will not say what the words should be, but I do feel that the Bill should not be passed without this suggested protection in it for the subject.
I agree most entirely with the hon. Member who has just spoken, and I only rise to make a suggestion. The Committee is practically unanimous in wishing that some statement of the offence should appear in the Act of Parliament itself, and not merely in the rules. Subject to that, we welcome the assistance of the Solicitor-General in the drafting of this Bill, and I only rise to suggest that he should agree to bring up on the Report stage a form of words which will secure a statement of the offence being included, and that those words shall be put into the Act, and not merely into the Schedule. If the right hon. Gentleman will agree to that we need not press to a Division any of these alternative phrases, which will suffice to give a lead as to the feeling of this Committee.
After listening very carefully to what has been said, I have come to the conclusion that this Amendment is not really required. It is well to be very jealous indeed of the interests of accused persons, but we should also be very jealous of the interests of the general public. In old days it was notorious that in the face of perfectly clear evidence men constantly escaped from justice by taking advantage of a flaw in the indictment. I think the Solicitor-General is right when he says that, by adopting this Clause, we should really revert to the old times, and there will be constant arguments against the indictment, on the ground that it does not really set out the essential elements of the offence charged. The hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University instanced the offence of burglary, and suggested that very few people, other than lawyers, know what constitutes that offence. But I find it is provided in the rules that if the offence charged is one created by Statute, then the statement shall contain a reference to the Section of the Statute creating the offence. Burglary is a statutory offence, and I have an Amendment down to provide that the statement of offence shall include a reference to the Section of the Statute, and that, with a copy of the indictment, the prisoner shall be supplied with a copy of the Section. He will then know exactly what is the offence charged against him, and he will not be put in any prejudicial position. I think that would apply to nearly all cases, and therefore I do not think any person would really be prejudiced if such a provision was introduced into the Bill. If I thought otherwise I would certainly vote for the Clause, but, under the circumstances, in view of the fact that many technical objections might be taken, and that it would be contrary to the public interests, I cannot support it.
May I respectfully suggest a form of words, which might be brought up on Report, as follows:—
"Every indictment shall state, with reasonable particulars, what is the sub- stance of the offence with which the prisoner is charged."
I do not think that that would give rise to technical discussions, and, on the contrary, it would help to make the matter clear.
I think the discussion has been an extremely useful one. I gather it is the desire of the Committee that the indictment shall convey to the prisoner, with reasonable certainty, the offence with which he is charged—not the essential elements of the offence itself. What we want to do is to make it clear to the prisoner what he is charged with. Different forms of words have been suggested by various speakers. All those forms shall be considered, and I will willingly undertake, before the Report stage, to consider again the various arguments which have been advanced. I quite understand the desire is to have the words in the Bill itself, and, with that in my mind, I will, in conjunction with my advisers, do my best to meet the views of the hon. Members
I want to thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement, and I hope the Committee will accept it in the spirit in which it was made. I want to make one request to him in considering this matter from the standpoint of the accused person. Surely the person is entitled to get off if the people who are attacking him will not take the trouble to give him full particulars of their case. I was a little astonished to hear that called a "technical objection." I only speak as a layman, but I maintain that if an indictment is not fairly drawn and the man cannot clearly tell from it what the offence is, with reasonable particulars which he has a right to know, whether he is guilty or innocent he ought, anyhow, to get off that crime. I make this appeal in the interest of careful work.
That is not the question.
No, but I am making a point which ought to be met. We have Bill after Bill introduced into and passed through the House where the authorities clearly are too lazy to get up the case against the accused. They have put in Clauses of this kind providing that unless the person proves himself innocent he shall be deemed to be guilty. I have always protested against legislation of that kind, and I always shall protest against it, either in war or peace. My main objection is, that the public official is now getting into such a position that if he accuses. a person, that must be taken to be his share of the work and he need not go to much trouble about it, while the accused person has all the onus of clearing himself. We ought not to allow slovenly work to procure a conviction.
I am very much indebted to the learned Solicitor-General for his statement that he will consider the bringing up on Report of some form of words If he does not we shall have to discuss this matter again. I am in no wise wedded to my form of words. The amusing part of the matter from my point of view is that. I used the very words of the draftsman in the rules in the Bill. I found there the words "essential elements," and I naturally thought, the Government having used the words, that they understood them. If the words are ambiguous why should needless and ambiguous words be used in the rules. I think the words suggested by my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hume-Williams) will do. I want the substance of the offence, with particulars. The particulars are more material than anything else. If I say I have to prove such and such a material fact, that is what I am undertaking to do, and that would bring home to the mind of the accused person what is the offence with which he is charged. In cases where it is alleged that there is intent to defraud it is very important that the man should know the material facts of the charge against him. That is all that I desire. I ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion and new Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
I am not quite clear as to whether the new Clause standing in the name of the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Hohler) [ Inspection of Documents ] is within the scope of the Bill, but if he can persuade me that it is, I will hear him.
I submit that it is in order. This is a Bill dealing with procedure, and my Clause is a most important matter of procedure. The Bill throughout deals with procedure, and does not in any way in any other respect alter the law. The title of the Bill is
"An Act to amend the law relating to Indictments in Criminal Cases, and matters incidental or similar thereto."
Those words are so wide that if I had been called upon to include everything I could not have found better words than criminal procedure.
On the point of Order. I submit that the Clause is beyond the scope of the Bill. The Bill deals with indictments, that is, the proceeding by which the criminal procedure is initiated at Assizes or Quarter Sessions. It does not purport to deal with procedure during trial. The Clause suggested by my hon. and learned Friend deals only with procedure during the trial, after an indictment has been lodged and found and the trial commenced. If we are going to deal with procedure throughout the trial we shall never finish. I submit the Clause is far beyond the scope of the Bill.
I venture to point out to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the rules in the Bill already provide that
"It shall be the duty of the clerk of assize, after a true bill has been found on any indictment, to supply to the accused person, on request, a copy of the indictment free of charge."
That is procedure pure and simple. How can it go beyond the scope of a Bill which contains that provision to propose that the accused person shall have the right to inspect the documents of the prosecution? If the one thing is within the scope of the Bill, so is the other.
May I, in answer to what the learned Solicitor-General has said, say that the Clause quite clearly refers to the law relating to indictments and matters incidental or similar thereto? How can it be said that it is not material or incidental to the trial of some prisoner that he should have what is called "discovery"? Take the case of a private prosecution. Say that a search-warrant is issued at the instance of a malicious prosecutor. He goes to the prisoner's office, seizes every document there, takes possession of them until the trial, and only produces such of them as he thinks will assist his case. He puts it out of the power of the prisoner to get at those documents or other documents which are material to his defence. Clearly that is a matter within the Title and scope of this Bill, which is a Bill
"to amend the Law relating to Indictments in Criminal Cases, and matters incidental or similar thereto."
My hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hume-Williams) pointed out that the Bill provides:
"It shall be the duty of the clerk of assize, after a true bill has been found on any indictment, to supply to the accused person, on request, a copy of the indictment free of charge."
The supplying of a copy of the indictment is a matter of procedure. The whole aim of the Bill is to secure that, so far as procedure is concerned, a man shall have a fair trial in all matters of form and any matters incidental to his trial. This is a matter incidental to his trial. Discovery would be granted on an application to a judge in order that the prosecution should declare what documents they had in their possession which were material to the issues of the trial.
On the point of Order. The title of the Bill is:
"An Act to amend the Law relating; to Indictments in Criminal Cases and matters incidental or similar thereto."
The law to be amended is the law relating to indictments, and the law relating to indictments, I submit, includes the evidence in support of the charge made in the indictment. I submit that the proposed New Clause is within the scope of the Bill. I will not say anything about the merits of the question, but the defendant in a criminal case should be entitled to the same use of the law of evidence which the defendant in a civil case now has.
The point is not without difficulty, and I have come clearly to the conclusion that this New Clause is outside the scope of the Bill. If I let this in, I could not shut out any manuscript Amendments which hon. Members might be disposed to move relating to the whole trial of the cause. Therefore, I am clearly of opinion this is outside the scope of the Bill.
Schedules.—First Schedule
Rules
Material, etc., for Indictments.
1.—(1) An indictment may be on parchment or durable paper, and may be either written or printed, or partly written and partly printed.
(2) Each sheet on which an indictment is set out shall be not more than 12 and not less than 6 inches in length, and not more than 14 and not less than 12 inches in width, and if more than one sheet is required, the sheets shall be fastened together in book form.
(3) A proper margin not less than 3 inches in width shall be kept on the left-hand side of each sheet.
(4) Figures and abbreviations may be used in an indictment for expressing anything which is commonly expressed thereby.
(5) There shall be endorsed on the back of an indictment the name of every witness examined or intended to be examined upon oath by the grand jury.
(6) An indictment shall not be open to objection by reason only of any failure to comply with paragraphs (2) and (3) of this rule.
Commencement of the Indictment.
2.—The commencement of the indictment shall be in the following form:—
The King v. A.B.
COURT OF TRIAL [ e.g., Central Criminal Court, [or] In the High Court of Justice, Ring's Bench Division, [or] Durham County Assizes held at Durham, [or] Hants Quarter Sessions held at Winchester ].
Presentment of the Grand Jury
A.B. is charged with the following offence [offences]:—
Joining of Charges in One Indictment.
3.—Charges for any offences, whether felonies or misdemeanours, may be joined in the same indictment if those charges are founded on the same facts, or form or are a part of a series of offences of the same or a similar character.
Mode in which Offences are to be Charged.
4.—(1) A description of the offence charged in an indictment, or where more than one offence is charged in an indictment, of each offence so charged, shall be set out in the indictment in a separate paragraph called a count.
(2) A count of an indictment shall commence with a statement of the offence charged, called the statement of offence.
(3) The statement of offence shall describe the offence shortly in ordinary language, avoiding as far as possible the use of technical terms, and without necessarily stating all the essential elements of the offence, and if the offence charged is one created by Statute, shall contain a reference to the Section of the Statute creating the offence.
(4) After the statement of the offence, particulars of such offence shall be set out in ordinary language, in which the use of technical terms shall not be necessary:
Provided that where any rule of law or any Statute limits the particulars of an offence which are required to be given in an indictment, nothing in this rule shall require any more particulars to be given than those so required.
(5) The forms set out in the appendix to these rules or forms conforming thereto as nearly as may be shall be used in cases to which they are applicable, and in other case forms to the like effect or conforming thereto as nearly as may be shall be used, the statement of offence and the particulars of offence being varied according to the circumstances in each case.
(6) Where an indictment contains more than one count, the counts shall be numbered consecutively in figures.
Provisions as to Statutory Offences.
5.—(1) Where an enactment constituting an offence states the offence to be the doing or the omission to do any one of any different acts in the alternative, or the doing or the omission to do any act in any one of any different capacities, or with any one of any different intentions, or states any part of the offence in the alternative, the acts, omissions, capacities, or intentions, or other matters stated in the alternative in the enactment, may be stated in the alternative in the count charging the offence.
(2) It shall not be necessary, in any count charging a statutory offence, to negative any exception or exemption from or qualification to the operation of the Statute creating the offence.
Description of Property.
6.—(1) The description of property in a count in an indictment shall be in ordinary language and such as to indicate with reasonable clearness the property referred to, and if the property is so described it shall not be necessary (except when required for the purpose of describing an offence depending on any special ownership of property or special value of property) to name the person to whom the property belongs or the value of the property.
(2) Where property is vested in more than one person, and the owners of the property are referred to in an indictment it shall be sufficient to describe the property as owned by one of those persons by name with others, and if the persons owning the property are a body of persons with a collective name, such as "Inhabitants," "Trustees," "Commissioners," or "Club," or other such name, it shall be sufficient to use the collective name without, naming any individual.
Description of Persons.
7. The description or designation in an indictment of the accused person, or of any other person to whom reference is made therein, shall be such as is reasonably sufficient to identify him, without necessarily stating his correct name, or his abode, style, degree, or occupation; and if, owing to the name of the person not being known, or for any other reason, it is impracticable to give such a description or designation, such description or designation shall be given as is reasonably practicable in the circumstances, or such person may be described as "a person unknown."
Description of Document.
8. Where it is necessary to refer to any document or instrument in an indictment, it shall be sufficient to describe it by any name or designation by which it is usually known, or by the purport thereof, without setting out any copy thereof.
General Rule as to Description.
9. Subject to any other provisions of these rules it shall be sufficient to describe any place, time, thing, matter, act, or omission whatsoever to which it is necessary to refer in any indictment, in ordinary language in such a manner as to indicate with reasonable clearness the place, time, thing, matter, act, or omission referred to.
Statement of Intent.
10. It shall not be necessary in stating any intent to defraud deceive or injure to state an intent to defraud deceive or injure any particular person where the Statute creating the offence does not make an intent to defraud deceive or injure a particular person an essential ingredient of the offence.
Charge of Previous Convictions, etc.
11. Any charge of a previous conviction of an offence or of being a habitual criminal or a habitual drunkard shall be charged at the end of the indictment by means of a statement—in the case of a previous conviction that the person accused has been previously convicted of that offence at a certain time and place without stating the particulars of the offence, and in the case of a habitual criminal or habitual drunkard, that the offender is a habitual criminal or a habitual drunkard.
Duty to Furnish Copy of Indictment.
12. —(1) It shall be the duty of the clerk of assize, after a true Bill has been found on any indictment, to supply to the accused person, on request, a copy of the indictment free of charge.
(2) The cost of any copy supplied to the accused person whether under this rule or otherwise shall be treated as part of the costs of the prosecution for the purpose of Section one of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act, 1908.
(3) In the application of this rule to Quarter Sessions, the clerk of the peace shall be substituted for the clerk of assize.
Interpretation.
13. The Interpretation Act, 1889, applies for the interpretation of these rules as it applies for the interpretation of an Act of Parliament.
Short Title.
14. These rules may be cited as the Indictment rules, 1915.
I beg to move, in Rule 1, to leave out paragraph (4).
This paragraph provides that:—
"Figures and abbreviations may be used in an indictment for expressing anything which is commonly expressed thereby."
Is not that rather too wide? Where figures are concerned they often form a material part of the charge, and it is very desirable that words rather than figures should be used. When the paragraph says that figures and abbreviations may be used for expressing anything which is commonly expressed thereby, surely that does not mean you are to have the abbreviations which are ordinarily used by lawyers in a draft? Is it necessary to have such a paragraph as this at all? It might very well be misunderstood and might be considered as giving great licence to the draftsmen of an indictment.
I am afraid this term "abbreviations" will rather militate against what I may call my protégé, the accused person, for this reason, that what you might set out as an abbreviation, he, being a man not familiar with documents, is perhaps not conversant with it, and has never used abbreviations in any important matter. It might be some abbreviation or word he has not seen before, and it might confuse him. There would not be the same objection to abbreviations if there- was a note explaining them. I hope that, so far as possible, abbreviations will not be used.
There are cases in which it would be better to use words rather than figures, but, on the other hand, there are other cases in which it might be convenient to use figures. For instance, supposing you had a sum of £1,568 and some shillings and pence, is it necessary that they should all be put in writing in letters. The paragraph would empower the person who draws the indictment to put in figures instead of words in that case. It is only in proper cases that they will be used.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments made:
In Rule 1, paragraph (5), leave out the words "upon oath" ["to be examined upon oath"].—[ Mr. King. ]
In paragraph (6), leave out the words "paragraphs (2) and (3) of."—[ Mr. Cave. ]
In Rule 4, paragraph (6), leave out the words "in figures."
I beg to move, in Rule 5, paragraph (1), at end, to insert the words, "Provided the particulars of offence state the material facts on which the prosecution rely in support of the charge."
I take it this rule is intended to refer to cases of falsification of accounts or embezzlement. I do not object to their setting up the Section of the Act of Parliament in the way proposed with the alternative of various intentions or capacities, because all that is a mere change in legal language. The offence really depends upon one set of facts. The only thing I ask is that those facts on which the prosecution relies shall be clearly set out.
I hope this will not be pressed. The rule says that the indictment shall state the acts, omissions, capacities or intentions. Those are the material things. It would be very dangerous to require the facts to be stated on which the prosecution relies.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: After Rule 11 insert the words "Nothing in these rules shall affect the provisions of Sub-section (4) of Section 32 of the Children Act, 1908."
I beg to move, in Rule 12, to leave out the word "after" ["after a true bill has been found"], and to insert instead thereof the word "before."
I propose to amend this rule so that the defendant shall be supplied with a copy of the indictment before the true bill has been found instead of after. Clearly the prisoner ought to have a copy of the indictment if he wants it, and he certainly ought to be entitled to have it at as early a period as he possibly can, so as to be able to consider it, if necessary, before the day of the trial. From the prisoner's point of view it is an Amendment which ought to be accepted, because he ought to be entitled to have ample time to consider the indictment. Secondly, from the point of view of the staff, it is essential, because if the true bill is found at half-past ten in the morning and the trial is likely to come on at any time after that—eleven, twelve, or three or four o'clock—in the case of a clerk of Assize he has no staff ready to make copies of the indictment after half-past ten, and the demand cannot be met at that period. In the same way it would be exceedingly inconvenient that the clerk of the peace should have to have a copy made after half-past ten, and if he made it on speculation, in advance, and the prisoner did not demand it, he would not get his costs under this Clause.
I am sorry I cannot accept the Amendment. It must not be forgotten that in 999 cases out of 1,000 the charge has been investigated at Petty Sessions and the defendant is committed for trial. Therefore he knows exactly what he is going to be charged with. From that moment until the bill is passed by the grand jury there is no further proceeding against him. In that case there is no need whatever to give him a copy of the bill. Apart from that, there might be great inconvenience and delay in many cases because the prisoner or defendant was absent. He may be on bail, or he may not be within the precincts of the Court. In cases like that it would surely be wrong to require that a copy of the bill should be given to him before it is brought before the grand jury.
The words of the rule are, "shall on request receive a copy."
At all events, I suggest that the right view is that until the bill be found he has no further interest. It is nothing more than a bill preferred to the grand jury. The defendant knows perfectly well what is going to be brought against him, and I see no reason for giving him a copy of the bill before it is brought before the grand jury. The technical difficulties are so great that it would be better not to adopt the Amendment.
6.0 P.M.
I do not quite appreciate the difficulties which the right hon. Gentleman has premised. In a civil action you begin by a statement of claim. You have to formulate your claim. All that is suggested now is that in criminal cases the prisoner charged should, if he requests it, be given a copy of the indictment. It might have been stated in the old days before this bill was passed that that would be a cumbersome thing to do, and possibly an expensive thing, but now that you are making indictments short and clear, why should not a man who is charged have the same right as a civil defendant has of being told clearly, within a reasonable time before trial, of the offence with which he is charged? The right hon. Gentleman says, with great truth, that he has always gone through a preliminary inquiry, but often he is committed on one charge, and when the indictment is framed the offence is enlarged and he comes to trial for an offence larger than that as to which the preliminary inquiry took place. Really it is no remedy at all to give him a copy of the indictment only after the grand jury have found the bill. I have known cases myself where I have been sitting as Recorder, when, after returning a true bill, the grand jury have found that there is no other prisoner to go on with and the man is put into the dock and tried immediately. It is no good giving him an indictment after he is in the dock charged with the offence, more particularly if he is defending himself. The man may be in the dock, and naturally nervous, and that is not the time when he can study the terms of the indictment. Why could he not have, if he demands it, a copy of the indictment, within a reasonable time, say, a week, before he is brought up for trial. I do not appreciate all the difficulties that have occurred to the mind of the Solicitor-General. His statement would have been a complete answer if the person who is charged already knows all the facts; but there are cases in which he does not know all the facts, because he is brought to trial for an offence larger than that on which he has been charged at the preliminary inquiry. Therefore, it seems to me that in accordance with the elements of justice, he should be given a proper copy of the indictment within a reasonable time of his trial. This Amendment will have my support.
I do not know that the Solicitor-General is very strongly opposed to any such proposal as has been made. The difficulties I see are in regard to practice. Until the judge opens the Assize, and up to the very moment when he charges the grand jury, it is the practice of the various Courts of Petty Sessions to send their depositions to the clerk of Assize in order that he may draw the indictment, and the necessary bill may be presented and the case dealt with at the Assize. It is obviously to the interest of the prisoner, because the prisoner may be, and very often is, an innocent person, and he gets immediate trial, without any delay in gaol. It is clearly to his interests that he should get free and clear of the offence with which he is charged at the earliest possible moment. If you do what my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hume-Williams) suggests, and supply a copy of the indictment a week before the trial, you may hang up the trial for three or four months. That would never do. In my experience, before even the judge has arrived in the county I have been supplied with a copy of the indictment. I believe it is the practice of the clerks of Assize and the clerks of the peace, if requested so to do, to supply a copy of the indictment to be presented. It does not necessarily bind them to every word of the indictment, if on reflection they think it ought to be altered or amended in some way, either in the interests of the prisoner, or to make the charge more clear. I would suggest some such words as these, "It shall be the duty of the clerk of Assize, as soon as he reasonably can, after receiving the depositions, to supply a copy of the indictment to the prisoner before the trial." In regard to the case that was put by the Solicitor-General of a bill presented by a private prosecutor, that is a very rare occurrence, except in highway indictments. Even in those cases the difficulty does not arise, for this reason, that when you present your bill to the grand jury it is the almost invariable practice, when the grand jury returns a true bill, for notice to be given to the party charged to attend at the next Assizes to take his trial. Therefore, ample time is given, and that kind of case is met in practice by the procedure upon a bill thus presented. I have not known a case in which the person is brought up for trial at the same Assize at which the bill has been found.
How in a case like that could the clerk of Assize comply with the rule to supply a copy of the bill before it goes to the grand jury?
I suggest that he should supply it as soon as he reasonably can after the receipt of the depositions. The Solicitor-General might consider the point.
After what has been said I will consider this matter.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, to leave out the words "on request" ["to supply to the accused person, on request, a copy of the indictment"].
Now that we are going to have indictments made short and simple; I think that every person charged should be entitled to a copy of the indictment, whether he asks for it or not. If a person is defended by counsel, the counsel will always ask for a copy of the indictment, but if a person is defending himself he may not be aware that he is entitled to a copy if he requests it, and he may omit to ask for it. It seems to me to be only fair and just that he should be supplied with a copy of the indictment as a matter of course, without having to make a request for it. Supposing, as the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge (Mr. Rawlinson) suggested, that copies are prepared in advance, as no doubt they will be, and as they very often are, there will be no great question in regard to cost if every person charged is entitled to a copy. The cost will be very small, and it will follow under the ordinary rule of the prosecution.
If I meet the point raised on the last Amendment it is common ground that the words now proposed to be left out must remain. I hope, therefore, that this matter will be left over while the whole thing is considered. Supposing the person charged is not there, he is away on bail or he is somewhere and cannot be found. How would my hon. and learned Friend's proposal apply? I do not want him to answer that point now, but he might consider it.
He would not be tried in his absence.
The point is, how could you serve him with the copy of the indictment?
Many indictments are actually drawn in Court on the day of the Quarter Sessions, and sent up immediately to the grand jury.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule," put, and negatived.
I beg to move, at the end of the paragraph, to insert the words "and if the offence charged is one created by Statute, a copy of the Section referred to in the indictment."
If the prisoner is to be supplied with a copy of the indictment, and if the statement of the offence makes reference to a Statute, I propose that together with the copy of the indictment he shall be supplied with a copy of the Section referred to.
I cannot accept this Amendment. The statement of the offence may arise under a number of Sections of different Acts, and it would be a considerable task to copy out the whole of the Sections referred to and supply the information to the persons charged. Every man is supposed to know the law. He does not always know the law, but the prisoner, I think, is protected by the requirement that where he is charged under a Statute the Section of the Statute shall be referred to. That will give him a guide so that he may look it up and find exactly what the charge is.
I do not think this Amendment is necessary, now that we are seeing that the offence is clearly stated. The prisoner has got to know clearly the offence with which he is charged. If he is to be supplied with copies of Sections of Acts of Parliament, I am afraid it will make him a little more alarmed than he was before, and muddle his mind.
I think this is rather a good Amendment. I am not a lawyer, but I sympathise with the difficulties of people who, when they are brought before the magistrates, do not know with what they are charged. The system of reference, and of indictment by reference, is a bad system. It does not make for clear knowledge of the various offences. The hon. and learned Member (Mr. Greenwood) does not propose that the entire Statute should be given to the prisoner, or the person charged, but he proposes that it should be set down in plain English what is the Section of the Statute on which he is charged, so that he may know what is the offence. It is impossible to expect an ordinary layman to find out what he has done wrong. It is very difficult even for an expert, even for a solicitor to find out the offence. I think that this Amendment is a very good proposition in many ways. I think it is an idea of a principle which ought to be carried into effect, not merely in our indictments but in our legislation. The way we legislate by reference is very stupid. If the hon. and learned Gentleman goes on with his Amendment I shall support it.
I hope the Solicitor-General will consider the subject further. The suggestion he has made that sometimes a man is charged under several Acts of Parliament is perfectly true, but that is an exceptional case. In the great majority of cases, perhaps in 999 cases out of a 1,000, it is extremely likely that a single Section of the Statute will be all that will have to be delivered if this Amendment is carried. It would be a great relief to the prisoner if he gets this. The hon. and learned Member (Mr. Hume-Williams) says that the prisoner will be confused in his mind if he is supplied with Sections of Acts of Parliament. I do not think the supplying of such information would add appreciably to his confusion. If it confuses his mind, it will not confuse the mind of his advocate, but it will appreciably clear up the matter.
I trust that the Solicitor-General will not yield to this request. The hon. Members who have spoken have spoken with every desire to assist the prisoner, but before they make this suggestion I would like them to make a study of some of our Acts of Parliament. I have one or two in my mind which comprise many Sections, including offences under the Offences Against Persons and Property Act. What the person charged wants to be told is the substance of the offence, and not to be given a Section of an Act of Parliament which might disclose ten or twelve offences. I fail to understand how there will be the least advantage derived by the prisoner under this Amendment. Further than that, the burden which it would throw upon the clerks of the peace or the clerks of Assize, and the costs to the county which has to pay for the prosecutions, would be interminable. I hope that the Amendment will not be pressed. In practice it would be found to be a most unfortunate Amendment. Who is to copy these things out? How are they to be added? If some words are omitted, what is the effect of it?
I do not propose to insist upon the Amendment, but I would like to say what was in my mind. The clerk of the peace would not under this proposal have to do anything like what he has to do now. For instance, if you take up an indictment for false pretences, he has to tell the prisoner that he falsely and fraudulently pretended so-and-so, and that he said so-and-so, and that he said so-and-so with intent to defraud; and then he has to go on to refer to every false pretence. He has to draw these great indictments very closely, and if he had merely to copy the Section and supply it to the prisoner there would be very much less labour than there is at present, because he would only have to copy the Section of the Statute. Now he is going to be relieved of all the labour of drawing these apparently scandalously long indictments. I do not think that this would put very much trouble upon him, but at the same time I will not press the Amendment to a Division.
If it is said that the effect of this upon the prisoner's mind is to make him think when reading it that he is upon dangerous ground, then I think that that is in the public interest, and I cannot see the force of the argument that has been urged against the proposal. It does seem to me that it would help the accused to let him know the Section. I understand that the hon. Member will not go to a Division, but if he did I should be compelled to vote for the Amendment, because anything which would help an accused person to defend himself would naturally appeal to me.
I beg to move, at the end of Rule 14, to add the words, "and these rules, together with any rules made under Section two of this Act, may be cited together by such collective title as may be prescribed by the last-mentioned rules." I trust that the learned Solicitor-General will agree to this Amendment.
indicated assent.
Words proposed there inserted.
Appendix to Rules
Forms of Indictment.
had given notice of the following Amendment: After the words "Forms of indictment" insert the words:—
"1.
Statement of Offence.
Treason.
Particulars of Offence.
A.B. on the day of , and on divers days between that day and the day of , in the county of , committed treason."
The next Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. Member seems to be a little out of place.
The indictments of offences are taken in a sort of order or heinous-ness. The most terrible offence that one can commit is treason. My object in putting it first was to place it in that position.
I see the hon. Member's point, but he will not propose to put all the offences of which he is aware into these Sections, I suppose.
I began to propose the Amendment standing in my name and occupying about six lines on the Paper. I certainly think that there ought to be a form of treason, partly because in these days it is quite possible that we may have treason trials. Possibly there ought to have been more already than there have been. There is also this point, that the present indictments for treason are really, if I may say so, the limit of antiquated verbiage. I have never had the pleasure of being indicted for treason myself, or of seeing anybody else indicted for treason, but I believe that the words used in the indictment are that the accused acted
"Not having the fear of God before his eyes and being seduced by the Devil."
I think that that is very improper language to use in a Court of Law, and that we ought to provide in this Bill a form of words for indictments for treason.
It must be remembered that this Schedule is by no means intended to be exhaustive. The offence of treason is happily a very rare and a very special offence, and it has many forms. I quite agree that the present form of indictment contains words similar to those used by the hon. Member and others which many of us know, and which are equally unnecessary. It is too long and ought not be used at all under the present arrangement. But the case is fully provided for by Rule 4, which says that the offence shall be stated in simple language. It is very undesirable, I think, to attempt to supply a form for treason, the indictment for which requires very careful consideration and preparation. The hon. Gentleman gives no particulars at all. All he says is that A.B. on a certain day committed treason. How is the man to know from that statement what is the kind of treason with which he is charged? I am quite sure my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment.
I am sure that my form of particulars of offence in the case of treason is quite as full as the form given in any of the rules for murder or manslaughter. It is rather more ample. I am very much impressed by what the Solicitor-General says. I can understand that the matter would have to be and will be very earnestly considered, and I will not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, after Form 4, to insert the following words:—
"5
Statement of Offence.
Conspiracy to procure the seduction [or the prostitution, as the case may be] of a female person.
Particulars of Offence.
A.B. and CD., on the day of , and on divers days between that day and the day of , in the county of , conspired together with intent to procure the seduction [or the prostitution, as the case may be] of E.F."
The offence of conspiracy to procure seduction is an offence at Common Law, and I see that in Lord Halsbury's "Dictionary of the Laws of England" he gives this explanation:—
"Anyone is guilty of a misdemeanour at Common Law who conspires together with one person or more to procure a woman for the purposes of prostitution or to seduce her, or cause her to he seduced. It is unnecessary to allege or prove that such a woman had been previously chaste."
I gather from the hon. Gentleman's speech that his object is not so much to have this particular form as to indicate in this Statute that the offence which he describes is an offence against the law for which there may be a prosecution. His object is quite other than that which we had in view when we brought in this Bill. Though it is quite true that a very learned judge held many years ago that this was an offence against the Criminal Law, it is not quite certain that that is so. It may be that the hon. Member knows nothing of this, or possibly that, knowing it, he desires in this legislation to assume a state of the law which may not exist. In any case, I am very doubtful as to whether this is in the right form. I do not know quite on what principle the hon. Member has framed this form of indictment, or what case or Statute he follows. I think that it would be wrong in the present case of the law, and for reasons which I have given, to accept this Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
Form 6.
Statement of Offence.
Cruelty to a child contrary to Section 12 of the Children Act, 1908.
Particulars of Offence.
A.B., on the day of , in the county of , being a person over the age of sixteen years having the custody, charge, or care of CD., a child, ill-treated or neglected the said child, or caused or procured the said child to be ill-treated or neglected in a manner likely to cause the said child unnecessary suffering or injury to its health.
I beg to move, in Form 6, to leave out the word "child," and to insert instead thereof the words "person under the age of sixteen years."
This is an important Amendment. This Form No. 6 is really open to a great deal of objection because the Children Act creates a number of offences of a character quite different from any other offence. What has been already accepted by the Solicitor-General seems to indicate that the Committee which drew up these rules did not take into consideration as fully as they might the Children Act and the special forms and terms which it contains. A child and a young person, of course, are different. That is to say, it would be a defence to prove that the person in respect of whom cruelty was committed has been described erroneously as a child or young person. Suppose a man is indicted for an offence against X, who is a child, then, if it is found that X had attained the age of fourteen, an acquittal would be obtained, I suppose. I think that if my Amendment were accepted it would avoid such a result, as it would take in both, if described as a child and a young person, Then there is also this further point, that you have continuing offences, and you might very likely have a continuing offence which would go over both the age of childhood and of a "young person." I think my form is a matter of real importance and substance, and I hope I shall get an encouraging answer.
The hon. Gentleman in his form desires to substitute one offence for another, namely, the offence of cruelty to a person over fourteen but under sixteen for the offence of cruelty to a child under fourteen years of age. I do not think that is necessary. If there was an indictment in respect of a child under sixteen the appropriate form would be used, and there would be no difficulty at all. It is undesirable to alter the form in the Bill, which is very carefully expressed.
I do not want to press my Amendment, and I have no doubt that the matter has received careful attention. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: After "A.B." ["A.B., on the"], leave out the word "on," and insert instead thereof "between the day of and."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]
Form 15.
Statement of Offences.
A.B., arson contrary to Section 3 of the Malicious Damage Act, 1861.
CD., accessory before the fact to same offence.
Particulars of Offences.
A.B., on the day of , in the county of , set fire to a house with intent to injure or defraud.
C.D., on the same day, in the county of did counsel, procure, and command the said A.B. to commit the said offence.
I beg to move, in Form 15, to leave out the words, "C.D., accessory before the fact to same offence."
I merely move this for the purpose of getting information from the Solicitor-General, as there may be possible difficulty in regard to indictments. In the Schedule, "A.B." refers to "arson contrary to Section 3 of the Malicious Damage Act, 1861," and "C.D." is, "accessory before the fact to same offence." Are those two to be put in the same count or in two separate counts? Ought they not to be put separately, and ought not the par-particulars to be appended to each count? There are one or two other questions in regard to indictments, and I suggest that this one rather offends against the rules already passed. I want to know how you justify putting these two offences together, when they clearly ought to be separate, and the particulars attached to each count.
This is not a question of two counts against one, but of two defendants charged together, and no doubt it was for that reason it was thought necessary to put them together. I will, however, look into the matter.
I am watching this Bill strictly because it is important to fire insurance companies in cases of arson. Naturally it must be seriously considered whether a man is charged with arson or whether be is charged with merely being accessory before the fact. They are two very different things.
Amendment negatived.
Form 17.
Statement of Offence.
Damaging trees contrary to Section 22 of the Malicious Damage Act, 1861.
Particulars of Offence.
A.B., on the day of, in the county of, maliciously damaged an oak tree there growing.
A.B. has been twice previously convicted of an offence under Section 22 of the Malicious Damage Act, 1861, namely, at, on the day of, and at, on the day of
I beg to move, in Form 17, to leave out the words "A.B. has been twice previously convicted of an offence under Section 22 of the Malicious Damage Act, 1861, namely, at, on the day of, and at, on the day of."
If you compare that form with Form 9 you find in the latter, "larceny after a previous conviction" and "A.B." contains the words "has been previously convicted of burglary." Those are put before the grand jury, but are they supposed to be read out to the petty jury at all, or merely the offence of larceny? If those particulars are to be put before the petty jury as well it would be an entire departure from the present state of affairs. At present the charge of larceny is a totally separate count, but here you are putting them into one offence, and the particulars are given in that way. Unless the form which I seek to amend be altered there will be some difficulty in keeping the fact of a previous conviction from the jury. The proper thing to do is to have separate counts: (1) the charge of larceny, and (2) the previous conviction. This further consideration may arise in respect of Form 20, "uttering counterfeit coin contrary to Section 12 of the Coinage Offences Act, 1861." In the particulars of offence it goes on to say, "A.B. has been previously convicted." In that case I rather thought for the moment that it was a matter which went before the grand jury, and if that is so surely the form, "uttering counterfeit coin," is the statement of offence, and if there be a previous conviction you have to give further particulars. It seems to me that there should be two separate counts, one charging the offence which is to go before a jury and the other dealing with the previous conviction.
I think if the hon. and learned Member raised these points in Court he would not succeed. There is clearly a difference between Form 17, with which the Amendment deals, and Form 20, dealing with indictments under Section 12 of the Coinage Offences Act. Form 17 has reference to the offence of damaging trees, and Rule 11 requires that any charge of a previous conviction shall appear in a statement at the end of the form. The hon. and learned Member knows that in criminal trials neither the judge nor chairman would think of allowing the facts as to previous convictions to go before the jury until the primary charge has been dealt with. As the hon. Gentleman has raised the point, I will give it consideration.
In regard to previous convictions, in the case of injury to trees, I remember an analogous offence, namely, that of stealing fruit, which, after one previous conviction, is made a felony, but it is not a felony unless there has been a previous conviction. In the case of injuring trees, I believe two previous convictions have to be proved before a charge of felony can be brought, and these previous convictions are an element in the offence. I think it is necessary that they should be included, and that the previous conviction should come before the jury; otherwise the Court could not convict in regard to this particular offence of damaging trees. Where a person has been previously convicted, it becomes part of the offence on which he is indicted. I submit in that case the previous conviction should actually go before the jury.
I think this is a very dangerous question. I know it is not new. I do not know whether my hon. Friend (Mr. Greenwood) has served on common juries as long as I have, but if a good many juries were told that the man had been convicted before they would not give the same attention to the case as they do now. I understand it to be a point of honour that counsel, in making a case against a prisoner, although he may know of previous convictions, should not state it in Court, and an hon. Member opposite says he is not permitted to do so. I think there will be very often miscarriages of justice if juries are allowed to know, merely for technical reasons, that the prisoner has been convicted before of the same kind of offence.
There is no intention of altering the law in that respect.
I am answering my hon. Friend, and I do not want the Solicitor-General to give way to his perfectly sincere eloquence.
Amendment negatived.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Schedule, as amended, be the First Schedule of the Bill."
I do not want to move an Amendment, but I am anxious to have an answer from the Solicitor-General as to the meaning of one sentence in Rule 3, as follows:—
"The statement of offence shall describe the offence shortly in ordinary language, avoiding, as far as possible, the use of technical terms, and without necessarily stating all the essential elements of the offence."
What is the meaning of the phrase "in ordinary language," and what is the meaning of "essential elements." The words "essential elements" are the words which alarmed the Solicitor-General earlier, and now we find them here. We were warned against a term like that making its appearance, and I wish to know how far those words qualify the words "in ordinary language." I have asked some legal Members of the House, and I believe this is the first time the phrase "in ordinary language" appears. What is ordinary language? I presume it does not mean the common language or dialect used perhaps by the accused person, who may not know literary English. I do not know what the meaning of the phrase is. That is why I did not put down an Amendment, because I may like the words in when they are explained. Certain words, for instance, become archaic, and certain words change in meaning from one generation to another. I understand it is not right to say that dialect language is incorrect, and the language adopted in the Courts or in this House is not necessarily better English, but it is the English that is adopted. I do not know how far this phrase will apply to some of the remote parts, say, of Wales, or in other districts where the ordinary language in certain parts is not, of course, the King's English. In those cases, say, in the remote parts of Wales, will the indictment have to be drawn in Welsh, that being the ordinary language of the accused person?
I think the Committee understand what these words mean, and I am inclined to think that my hon. Friend thoroughly understands them too. They mean the ordinary language of the country such as the person charged with the offence can understand, the language which he hears every day of his life, and which he is able to grasp when he hears it. "Avoiding as far as possible the use of technical terms," that is the real meaning, and that you are not to charge a prisoner in certain legal forms, but in the ordinary language of the country, so that he may understand it.
These are not new words, and although I cannot cite an instance now, I am perfectly convinced, after long experience, that they are words used before in a Statute.
Question put, and agreed to.
Schedule II. ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered.
New Member Sworn
Charles Robert Sydenham Carew, esquire, for the County of Devon (North-Eastern or Tiverton Division).
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Will the Prime Minister state the business to be taken next week?
On Monday and Tuesday we will take the Report stage of the Finance (No. 3) Bill. I will announce on Monday the business for the rest of the week.
Has the right hon. Gentleman observed that there are 160 Amendments on the Paper in the name of the Government to the Finance Bill, and, having regard to the difficulty of appreciating the effect of those Amendments, and of putting down any other Amendments, can the right hon. Gentleman see his way to take the Finance Bill for the first time on Tuesday?
No, Sir, I can not do that. The Amendments to which my right hon. Friend refers were put down in pursuance of promises made yesterday, and hon. Members will have about five and a half days to consider them. The rest were put down this morning, and they are not likely to be reached until Tuesday.
Privilege
I desire to ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, on a matter affecting the rights and privileges of this House. In the "Daily News" of to-day a statement appears that a meeting was held in London, yesterday, for the purpose of forming a National party. [ Laughter. ] It is not a laughing matter. In the report by their Lobby correspondent, which appears in the "Daily News," the following statement appears:—
"Subsequently, in the House of Commons Smoking Room, in the course of the afternoon, it was observed that Lord Charles Beresford and Sir E. Carson had a conversation with two Liberals, Sir Henry Dalziel and Sir A. Markham."
Grossly libellous!
I desire to ask you, Sir, whether a Press correspondent who enters the Lobby of this House, under your Order, is entitled to publish in his newspaper information as to what purports to go on in the Smoking Room, which is private to Members of the House? May I say that there is not a word of truth in the quotation. The matter was never mentioned. In fact, the only question discussed was the hysterical conduct of the Home Secretary. I therefore desire to ask you, Sir, whether this is not a gross violation of the courtesy extended by you to newspaper correspondents, and whether Parliamentary life is to be made intolerable if those correspondents are to be allowed to repeat observations of this kind, which give a wrong impression in the country? This same correspondent, some time ago, repeated a conversation, in which he alleged that I took part, in the Smoking Room, and I have never spoken to him since on that account.
I rather wish the hon. Member had given me some notice of this, so that I might have looked at the per cant paragraph. I would point out to hon. Members that the remedy is in their own hands. As long as they talk and gossip with these gentlemen, of course, the gossip and talk will be reported, sometimes inaccurately, sometimes accurately. The best thing is for hon. Members to follow the example of the hon. Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham), and have nothing to say to them.
I ask you, Sir, is it not a breach of the rules and courtesies of this House that a Lobby correspondent, who enters the precincts of the House under your order, should repeat in the newspapers conversations alleged to have taken place between hon. Members?
I cannot say anything further. It does not seem to me a very heinous offence to say that the Noble Lord had a conversation with two hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House. I cannot take exception to that. I really do not quite see what the point is in respect of which the hon. Member wishes me to consider punishment.
I always thought that conversations which took place in Members' rooms of the House of Commons were strictly private.
If hon. Members will repeat these private conversations to Lobby correspondents, this is what occurs.
Is it not evident that this correspondent was not repeating what passed between Members, but was exercising his imagination?
I do not know. I have not seen the paragraph.
I wish to ask you, Sir, whether it is consistent with the dignity of the House that papers should state which Members speak to others? I would remind you, Sir, that in present circumstances there is friendship, owing to the great national crisis we are going through, between Members of this House to a greater degree than formerly; and I wish to ask you whether when Members, formerly of different parties, happen to speak to each other casually in the smoking room, that the conversation should be reported in the public Press to their annoyance. If it is not a breach of privilege, is it not gross bad manners to publish our names?
On a point of Order. Shall I not be in order in moving that we proceed to the next business?
Indictments Bill.—[Lords]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]
Evidence (Amendment) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Evidence of Depositions of Witnesses Engaged on Naval or Military Service.)
The provisions of Section seventeen of the Indictable Offences Act, 1848, and Section seventeen of the Indictable Offences (Ireland) Act, 1849, and Section fourteen of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act, 1851, which enable the depositions of witnesses in certain circumstances to be read as evidence at the trial shall, during the continuance of the present War, apply to depositions of witnesses who are proved to be unable to attend, having regard to the interests of the public service, by reason of being actively engaged in the naval or military service of His Majesty, in like manner as they apply to the depositions of witnesses who are proved to be dead.
I beg to move, after the word "War" ["present War"], to insert the words "and subject to the consent of the judge presiding at the trial."
The Bill, as it stands, apparently gives the unqualified right, upon the witness being proved to be absent on military or naval service, to send his deposition before the grand jury and afterwards allow it to be read in a criminal Court in the same way as if the witness had died. My Amendment proposes that that should be done in the discretion of the presiding judge in the High Court or at Quarter Sessions. The power which is being given by this Bill is very important. Ordinarily the witness has to appear before the jury, and there is the right of cross-examination. There is not the slightest doubt about it that it is a great hardship to the prisoner to have evidence taken before the magistrate used against him on his trial in the way suggested, because in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred the prisoner does not exercise seriously his right to cross-examine before the magistrate, but reserves the major portion of the cross-examination to Assizes or Quarter Sessions Therefore we are making a considerable change in giving this power to read depositions in every case where men are absent on service either in England or elsewhere. I venture to submit that that power ought only to be given subject to the qualification that the presiding judge has a discretion as to whether it should be used or not.
With much of what my hon. and learned Friend has said I agree. I agree with him when he says that we ought to watch very jealously before we take steps which would substitute the reading of evidence-already given for the restating of evidence by a willing witness in the witness box. I entirely agree with him that it is very much better in all cases where it is practicable, and everybody will agree, that the evidence should be given by the person. But the particular proposal that the hon. and learned Gentleman makes here would not, I venture to think, be an improvement on the Bill, and perhaps he will allow me to say why. It seems to me very desirable if we are going to adopt the principle of this first Clause, and I did not understand the hon. and learned Gentleman to resist the principle at all, that the condition under which we may read the evidence of an absent witness because he is necessarily detained elsewhere by military or naval duties, should be the same condition which already applies in a case where the witness is detained by serious illness or any other ground. If you do not do that you clearly produce complications, because the conditions would be slightly different in one case from the other. As the hon. and learned Gentleman so well knows, very strict conditions have to be complied with now. If a witness before the trial has fallen seriously ill or has died then the conditions you have to comply with are as follows: The first is, that you deposition is the man's deposition signed by his name, and that it in fact does record what he then said, and secondly, that it was all done in the presence of the accused, and thirdly, that the accused had every opportunity to cross-examine, and that anything that he wished to put was written down equally with the rest of the testimony. If we are going to make this change at all, I think it is desirable to-have the conditions on the same level.
7.0 P.M.
There is one other point. There are two hon. Members sitting below the Gangway who watch most carefully legislation of this sort, though it is only temporary in character, lest by it we might be doing some injustice or applying some rule harshly against the accused. With their object I am wholly sympathetic, but let me remind them that what we are proposing to do here applies not only to witnesses for the prosecution, but also to witnesses for the defence. It may very well be that a man has called before the magistrate a witness in his defence as to good character or as to an alibi or any other defence, but that owing to the fact that the man is a fully enlisted soldier, gone on military duty, he cannot produce that witness when he comes to be tried. I think it would be very hard if you were to say, "I am not content that you should satisfy the conditions, which would be sufficient if the witness were dead or too ill to come; you, the accused, must, as a matter of fact, persuade the Court that the evidence ought to be admitted." The right thing is to have the living evidence if you can get it, narrowly to define the conditions under which a deposition can be accepted, and lay down by law what the conditions as to disability shall be. As to the protection of the accused, juries always look with a very jealous eye upon any evidence which is not actually given viva voce. The idea that it is to the advantage of the prosecution that a witness should be away is the greatest mistake. It is to the advantage of the prosecution that the witness should be there. I hope, therefore, my hon. and learned Friend will see that there are solid reasons for not accepting the Amendment.
We must all watch with the greatest jealousy any proposal which might by any possible chance injure an accused on his trial. With all respect to the Home Secretary's great experience, I cannot accept his assertion that it is at all times to the interest of the prosecution to produce a witness. It is often very injurious to the prosecution to produce a witness when that witness is subject to cross-examination in Court. There are Members present with great experience of the class of cross-examination which takes place before the magistrate. Very often a witness is called upon whose evidence the prisoner may be hanged—a witness who brings apparently most damning and unanswerable evidence against the prisoner. What is the effect of the cross-examination? In nine cases out of ten it is conducted by the prisoner in person, and in the odd remaining case it is conducted by his solicitor who, either for want of proper instructions or regarding it as tactful to refrain, does in fact refrain from cross-examination. When a prisoner appears in person we know the kind of question that he asks. A case occurred in my own experience not long ago where a witness brought most damaging evidence against the prisoner before the magistrate. The evidence was most serious, and the prisoner's cross-examination consisted of these words, "Did not your wife marry my cousin?" That is the cross-examination that would be read when this witness's evidence was produced in Court. It is most essential that before accepting any of these proposals we should ask ourselves whether there is anything we can do to protect the prisoner and to see that the evidence produced against him is fairly produced against him. I would urge the Committee to have that in mind in the consideration of every Clause of this Bill.
With that in mind, one asks whether the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend does afford that protection. I think it does give a considerable amount of protection. It may be that it would cause a little trouble by differing from the present system, but I think that that trouble is incomparable with the protection that it offers. Let us insist that the judge should give his consent. As I understand the Bill, even if a witness is in the country, if he produces evidence from his commanding officer that he cannot attend, that will be taken as proof that he is unable to attend. That seems to me very dangerous. In these days commanding officers not unnaturally have a great contempt for legal proceedings. I have had recent experience in the matter. I do not mean to say that commanding officers would prevent justice being done, but their first interest in these days is, of course, the military interest. They have that uppermost in their minds above the interest of any proceeding that is shortly to take place in the Law Courts. I believe that the evidence that a certain military witness was unable to attend would be very easily obtained from the commanding officer—much more easily than the evidence necessary to prove that a witness was too ill to attend. Those who have practised in the Courts know perfectly well that it is very difficult, almost impossible, to get a deposition read on the ground that a witness is too ill to attend. Moreover, the cases where witnesses are unable to attend from illness or other such cause are very few, whereas the cases in which witnesses owing to military reasons are unable to attend will be very many. I hope my right hon. Friend will reconsider the matter, and that in regard to this and every other proposal he will ask himself whether he cannot give this extra protection, having regard to the serious nature of the proposals contained in the Bill.
I think we all agree with the point of view just taken by the hon. and learned Member opposite. Wherever we sit and whatever may be our degree of responsibility in regard to this measure, we are all trying to get the Bill into a form which shall be scrupulously fair to the accused person. But I have some difficulty in supporting this particular Amendment, for two reasons. The first is that it deals with the judge trying the case. The Bill applies, as I think unfortunately, to courts-martial as well as to Civil Courts.
That is the next Clause.
I think it will be seen that my point has reference to this Clause. If the Amendment were inserted, the effect would be that in a trial before a Civil Court the president of the tribunal would have the right to decide the point, whereas in the case of a court-martial the president of the tribunal would not. I think there is more need for such a safeguard where the whole process is military than where the process is of a civil character. Therefore this proposal does not give the safeguard in those particular cases where it seems to me to be most necessary. The other point was put by the Home Secretary, that the judge, whether military or civil, ought not to have the power of deciding against any evidence given for the prisoner at the first hearing. Where as prisoner has had any witness on his behalf at the first hearing I think we should all agree that if that witness could not attend the prisoner ought to have the option of having his deposition read at the second hearing; otherwise he might be put at a great disadvantage. If this Amendment is withdrawn or not accepted, would my right hon. Friend be at all disposed to accept an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset, confining these provisions to cases where people are serving the Crown out of the country? When they are out of the country it is a difficult thing to get them back, but when they are in the country there is great danger of commanding officers in a bonâ-fide way, for what they think to be quite good military reasons, preventing soldiers in their command from coming to give evidence. For the reasons I have given I hope this Amendment will not be pressed. If my right hon. Friend is prepared to limit the proposals to persons serving the Crown outside the country or on the high seas, he will go a long way to meet the risk which was present to the mind of my hon. and learned Friend when he moved this Amendment.
I hope the Home Secretary will see his way to accept this safeguard.
Perhaps if my hon. Friend will give way I may save the time of the Committee. I am impressed by the arguments which have been put forward. We all want the matter to be safeguarded as far as possible. I have difficulty in cutting down the Bill strictly to cases where witnesses are detained on urgent public service abroad. But I do not want to prejudge that point at the moment. On the point raised by my hon. and learned Friend, I think it might be possible to make a modification which would improve the Bill, and, at the same time, meet his point. If read strictly, the proposal looks as if the Court before which the trial is to take place is really to decide whether the provisions of certain Acts of Parliament shall enable, generally speaking, the depositions of witnesses to be read. What is meant is that in each case the particular deposition should be subject to that veto. I venture to suggest that this Amendment should be withdrawn, and I think we might at the end of the Clause insert words to this effect:
"Provided that no deposition shall be read as evidence, under the powers of this Section, save with the consent of the Court before which the trial takes place."
That is exactly what my hon. Friend means, and my hon. Friend behind me will see that I am not prejudging his point.
Not at all.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, to leave out the word "interests" ["the interests of the public service"], and to insert instead thereof the word "necessities."
It is, of course, to the interest of a battalion in training that every man who is healthy should always be present to go through his drill, to go on his route march, or to undergo his musketry instruction. As circumstances stand, the Army would probably say that it is never desirable that a man should be away unless on leave for health or similar purposes. But the necessities of the case are very different, and inasmuch as just now—
I think I will accept this Amendment.
Thank you. Question, "That the word 'interests' be left out," put, and agreed to.
Word "necessities" there inserted.
I beg to move, after the word "engaged" ["actively engaged in the naval or military service"], to insert the words, "without the United Kingdom."
I am sure this Amendment will be fairly considered by the Home Secretary. This is a very important matter. The Home Secretary has intimated in a parenthesis that he will find difficulty in accepting this. We have listened to what he says as to the difficulties. Whatever the difficulties be, I feel that the principle is very important, and an absolutely clear one, and not one which is impracticable, at least on the face of it. The principle my Amendment embodies is that we will allow men when they are serving abroad to give their evidence in this particular way, but if they are in this country, and therefore presumably not on active service but in training, on leave, or otherwise employed, there is no reason whatever why they should not be brought to Court. Such a course will appeal to everybody, and it must, I think, appeal to the right hon. Gentleman on the Treasury Bench. I hope, if my Amendment cannot be accepted in the form I suggest, that something will be said to indicate that the object I have in view will be met.
This point was mentioned by the hon. Member on the Second Reading of the Bill, and I promised then that I would consult carefully with the War Office authorities. There are one or two difficulties. There is the difficulty, first of all, that you must make a rule which is going to apply to all cases. It is no good talking about this as being an only case, and leaving out some very serious case. You must also think of the case which is important in its way, where a great disturbance of the public service in time of war might be made merely for the purpose of fetching an important officer hundreds of miles to give a piece of evidence which is quite unchallenged. You have to look at the thing rather broadly. There is another thing: If you say one of the conditions which must be satisfied before a deposition is read shall be a real necessity, and that the witness must be outside the United Kingdom, the hon. Member who looks so keenly into these things will see that at once there arises the question: At what moment is it to be proved that he is out of the United Kingdom? Is it while the evidence is being read, or yesterday, or a week ago, or what? There may be a case where the commander of a battleship, or, if you like, somebody of lower rank in the Navy, is ashore one day because his ship is coaling, and away next day at sea in the North of Scotland. It really does not make any difference to the trial, because he cannot come to it. It might be that a condition you must prove is the man's absence out of the United Kingdom, and that would possibly add very considerable mechanical difficulties to the working of the Bill.
I have, therefore, made it my duty, in fulfilment of the pledge I gave to my hon. Friend, to communicate most particularly with the War Office authorities on this point. I am sorry my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for War is not here for the moment, but I am speaking with his full authority in what I am saying, and it is quite clearly understood that the military and naval authorities accept the principle in cases of real necessity. For that reason I was very glad to accept my hon. Friend's suggestion, and to substitute the word "necessity" for the word "interests." I think that is quite right. If you want to get a jury or a Court impressed, it makes an enormous difference, in my experience, whether you have men there in the flesh or otherwise. But this is a temporary Bill. We have altered the word "interests" to "necessities," and in regard to our intention, we have done another thing of great importance. We have provided, owing to the suggestions made by various Members, that one of the necessary conditions as to the evidence is that the tribunal shall be satisfied. I foresee that that will create a little embarrassment in the minds of those preparing for trial, because they will not really know for certain what is the extent of the evidence which they will be able to put forward, and which will depend partly upon the view which the tribunal takes. I shall be grateful if hon. Members will accept the assurance of the military authorities, and I trust it will be seen that I am not anxious to ride rough-shod over the Committee.
I am grateful to the Home Secretary for the tone of his speech, and for what he has done. Supposing that that meets the point, might I ask this: Would there be any objection to asking the military authorities to send round one of their Army Orders to the effect that witnesses required for this purpose were not to be kept at military duties save in cases of absolute necessity. The point of some of us is that there are a number of officers who thoroughly understand their military duties and the importance of the men discharging them, but 'they are not familiar with the extreme importance of these safeguards and these procedures in which we are interested. If my right hon. and learned Friend or his colleague can see that some Army Order is issued to say, in the first instance, to Army officers that they were not to keep a man back from giving evidence save in emergency or in cases of absolute necessity, that witness would be there.
Of course I cannot give a promise of that sort, but I shall certainly make it my business to inform the War Office authorities of the view that has been expressed—a view which I share. I must be allowed to add that I must not be understood in any way to support the suggestion that there is in the case of military or naval officers any less care than there should be in seeing that the fullest protection is given to an accused man. In my experience—I cannot speak for everybody—I have never seen greater care taken than in two or three military trials with which it has been my business to be associated.
Certainly I have not intentionally used words in contradistinction to what my right hon. and learned Friend has just said. What I meant was that people engaged in some great profession must find a little difficulty in appreciating the degrees of values which are proper to another.
I am not in any way going to oppose the Bill or to criticise it unduly. I rose before the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite to get Mr. Chairman's eye to make the very suggestion that he has made. While I accept what he has said about military officers desiring to forward the interests of justice, I do think it would carry great weight if it were possible to send to the War Office and ask them to send out a notice drawing attention to this Statute. Another suggestion was in respect of soldiers who are in the country. If it is not possible for Mahomet to come to the mountain, could not the evidence be taken, and could not the witness be cross-examined?
made a reply which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
We all know that that sort of cross-examination is in nine cases out of ten quite useless. I will undertake to say, and I think anyone who has undertaken criminal cases will agree, that the cross-examination of a witness before a magistrate is quite useless for any purpose of defence. But if it were possible, in case the soldier or sailor is available, in the interest of all parties, to give the accused a chance of the man being legally examined, I do think you would minimise the possibility of injustice. If the witness is in England and cannot attend the trial, surely representatives of the prosecutor and of the accused could go for the purpose of examining and cross-examining him, so that both the examination and cross-examination might be available for reading at the trial.
I think the necessity for anything of this kind has been met by anticipation by the words which the Home Secretary proposed to add at the end of the Clause. I just rise to refer to the point regarding the Army Order. Certainly it seems most desirable that an Army Order to the effect suggested should be issued. I venture to call attention in this connection to Clause 3, which provides for a certificate that a person is unable to attend, having regard to the interests of the public service. It seems to me that in the Army Order it would be very desirable to issue instructions to the effect that where a certificate of that sort was being put forward there should not only be a general statement, but details should be given of the exact circumstances under which it was proposed that the man in naval or military service should not attend. I think it very important that particulars should be given.
It has been suggested by my hon. and learned Friend opposite that, in the event of a witness in question not being cross-examined, there should be some kind of commission issued by the Court that his evidence should be taken and cross-examined. My hon. and learned Friend knows perfectly well there is no such thing as taking evidence by commission, and this would introduce a new procedure altogether, and would have the effect in many cases of postponing the hearing of this case. That is very undesirable at times, and it seems to me time would be lost. I suggest my hon. and learned Friend's point is really met by the Amendment we have adopted to Clause 1.
I thank the Home Secretary very much for the way he regarded this Amendment, although he cannot accept the actual words. He referred to his conference with the War Office authorities. I suppose he has been in touch also with the Admiralty on this matter. There are a great number of men serving at home under the Admiralty. There is no name of any representative of the Admiralty on the back of this Bill, but I suppose that what has been said with regard to undertakings, or intentions, or promes of the War Office applies equally to the Admiralty. I hope we shall have that made clear.
I cannot doubt that it has been referred to both Services.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words, "Provided that this Section shall not apply where the trial is for an offence punishable with death."
This Amendment raises a very important point, which also was raised during the course of discussion on Second Reading. We felt very strongly that no man ought to be condemned to death on evidence where there is no opportunity of cross-examining that evidence at the trial. It is a clear issue. The cases in which it would be possible, I should imagine, would be extremely few, and they would be of such a serious nature that it would always be possible to put them off. A man who is being tried for his life would naturally be only too ready to have his case put off rather than have the disadvantage of not being able to cross-examine a witness. I can conceive no reason whatever why this Amendment should not be adopted.
I beg to second this Amendment. It is in better terms than the Amendment I have down on the subject. There are, perhaps, from 3,000,000 to 3,500,000 men under arms, and, therefore, it is quite clear that we may have a very large number of these cases. Now we are relaxing safeguards undoubtedly; the Home Secretary has admitted that. He has admitted that he has been very unwilling to do so, and I do hope that the argument may appeal to him that, in cases of life and death, even at some inconvenience to the public service, we should have the very best means of getting the evidence properly examined. Everybody who has had any experience of the Law Courts will know what a vitally important matter cross-examination is in these cases—how we may have a case presented to us which at the first blush seems absolutely good, and then we find the case frequently breaks down by a skilful cross-examination. I do hope, therefore, the Home Secretary, in the desire which he has shown to meet the very earnest wishes of the Committee in the matter of safeguards, will see his way to accept this Amendment.
As I rather joined in expressing this point of view on Second Reading, I think it is fair that I should state why I now take a somewhat different view. Capital cases in Civil Courts can only be tried by a judge of the High Court, and I am inclined to think that any person charged with a capital offence would have a better chance of acquittal before a judge of the High Court if a substantial part of the evidence were merely read than if the living witness were there to give what might be the most deadly kind of evidence. I have not entirely agreed with the Home Secretary on all parts of this Bill, and I am afraid I shall not secure his approval with regard to the Amendment of mine as to courts-martial; but I think it is only fair to say that, on fully considering this, I believe, oddly enough, it is precisely in capital cases where the least risk would be run by this procedure if tried before a judge of the High Court, because I cannot conceive any judge of the High Court failing to call the jury's attention to the fact that some evidence was only written evidence, and could not be cross-examined, and that the person was not present from whose demeanour and behaviour they might derive valuable assistance. There- fore, so far as concerns the trial of capital offences in Civil Courts, I cannot support my hon. Friends.
Of course, if it is a case of trying a capital offence before a court-martial, then my attitude is entirely different, not from any want of confidence in the honour, intelligence, or skill of soldiers, but because of their inexperience in this particular procedure. I thought it only fair, as I took a somewhat active part in this on Second Reading, to say that, as regards trial by Civil Court, I do agree with the Home Secretary that the risk is less, and that it is the prisoner who stands to gain by the absence of one of the witnesses, particularly as nowadays there is no capital case ever heard before the ordinary Courts in this realm in which the accused person has not counsel assigned to him quite competent to take notice of this point, and to draw the attention of the jury to the inherent weakness of merely written evidence in a matter of that kind. In regard to Civil Courts, therefore, I am afraid I cannot go with my hon. Friend, but I make a full reservation with regard to cases before courts-martial, which will be raised on a subsequent Amendment.
I would just like to say, on behalf of the Army, it is quite true that we have attached importance to the retention of the words in the Bill on the question of capital cases. If we were to remove the procedure from capital cases it would really very much invalidate the Bill from our point of view.
Is there anything to preclude the use of depositions in courts-martial under Clause 1?
I do not think it quite stands in that way. Clause 1, standing by itself, has got nothing to do with trials by court-martial at all. It is a purely temporary Clause, and only applies during the War, but, though it only applies during the War, it refers to proceedings which are in the ordinary Courts of the land, and subject to the ordinary rules at every stage.
Is the right hon. Gentleman quite sure that this precludes the use of these depositions before a court-martial?
I was really only stating the first of two points. The second point is the one which the hon. and learned Member has in mind. It is right we should have that in mind when we come to Clause 2, which no doubt might involve the use before a court-martial of depositions which have been taken in the first instance, not indeed before a magistrate at all, but before the preliminary inquiry, That really arises under Clause 2, and I cannot help thinking, for the sake of order, it would be better if we took Clause I as being what it is, and deals with quite ordinary proceedings, although I agree that in Clause 2 my hon. Friend may have a point. I hope the Committee will see their way to let this matter stand as it is. I really cannot agree that the difference between serious cases and leas serious cases can be properly measured by saying that in one category you may have a particular piece of evidence, and in another you may not. That really is confusing the question of innocence and guilt with the question of punishment, and I believe it to be a bad principle to say, "Oh, yes, it does not matter whether the evidence was good evidence or not, but it is good enough to send the man to prison." If it is not good enough evidence to send a man to prison, It ought not to be taken at all. If it is good for one case, it is good enough for the other. One is a question of proof, and the other is a question of punishment. The French system is different, because there you leave one part of the tribunal to judge matters dealing with punishment quite apart from the question of guilt.
One of the great merits of our English system is that it always draws the sharpest distinction between questions of guilt and innocence, and questions of punishment, and I think it will be a great pity if we do anything to confuse those two things. Let us insist, on the question whether a man is innocent or guilty, that all the testimony has to satisfy our standards, and it makes no difference what the result is. That is one of the great principles of British justice, and I should not like to alter it. The reason why we wish to carry this Bill in time of war is that we must protect ourselves against certain very special dangers. I think I have seen most of the details of almost every serious espionage case in my previous office, and my present office makes me in a measure responsible, and I feel most confident that the amount of care taken in every one of these cases to see that the evidence has not been strained against the accused, is a thing which, when this particular matter comes to be known, we shall all take pride in. I am confident that when it becomes safe to publish all the details of these cases it will form a very interesting and instructive chapter in our criminal history, and not one of us will have reason to blush, or to say that in times of national alarm we have strained the law against the accused. Do not let us confuse two things: (1) whether the evidence is of a quality which ought to be listened to, and (2) what is in the view of the law the proper punishment for that which a person is found guilty.
I wish to support the view taken by the Home Secretary on this Amendment. I should like to draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to what is the real meaning of my hon. Friend's question. Is he quite certain that according to the wording of the first Clause these depositions may not be used in a court-martial? I understand the distinction between Clause 1 and Clause 2, but my hon. Friend was in doubt as to whether there was anything in Clause 1 to preclude these depositions being used at a court-martial. I cannot support the Amendment, but I am not quite sure whether the intention of the Government is carried out in the Clause.
I ask leave to withdraw this Amendment, but I would like to point out one consideration which has not been mentioned, which I think rather makes for considering my Amendment. It is that these trials to which the Under-Secretary of State for War referred are mostly held in camera, if not all. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] Well, many of them are held in camera, and, as the Home Secretary has already stated, some day this interesting chapter of criminal history will be made known. We do not know how many there are, but a certain number have been held in camera, and there is no reason why they should not all be so held.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, to add at the end of the Clause the words, "Provided that no depositions shall be read in evidence under the powers of this Section, save with the consent of the Court before which the trial takes place."
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
There is one point which I would like to have made clear. It does not appear to me clear that depositions taken under Clause I may not be used in Military Courts at courts-martial. If that is so, then we lose the protection we get from the words "subject to the consent of the judge presiding at the trial." What would be the position if those depositions were used in a Military Court? We should at once lose the protection which those words afford. If it is intended that the depositions should not be used at a court-martial, should we not insert some words to the effect that depositions taken under these circumstances are not intended to be used at courts-martial?
May I point out that this Clause applies to depositions taken before the magistrate, and cannot be used anywhere else, except with the consent of the Court? Courts-martial in nine cases out of ten will be dealt with under Clause 2. It may be that in a case where a man has been brought before the magistrates the depositions might be read at another Court, with the consent of the Court before which the case has been tried. May I draw the attention of the Home Secretary to the old question of legislation by reference? I am going to ask where you do set out Sections like this that you should put a side-note giving the chapter and Section of the particular Act referred to. You mention here the Indictable Offences Act, 1848, and other Acts. I can find no authority for that short title, and it does not apply anywhere else, and quite a different name is given to it in the ordinary Statutes. Therefore I think it would be more convenient if a side-note were given indicating the particular Section referred to. The hon. Member opposite assumes that the powers of that Act apply in ordinary peace time to the depositions given on behalf of the prisoner before the magistrate. It is an interesting point, but I am not so absolutely certain that, even at the present time, depositions taken on behalf of a prisoner before the magistrate will come under that Section at all.
I know of a case where a judge has admitted it.
I am sure no harm has been done by his so doing, but certainly the words of the Section are exceedingly inappropriate to any such depositions, and I should think it is very doubtful if any such power exists. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to have that power he should make certain of it.
I agree with what the hon. Member opposite has said. I have looked at this matter carefully now, and I am quite confident that our intention is successfully carried out by this Clause. If you look at the Indictable Offences Act, which is its short title, you will see that at present you may read at the trial depositions on certain conditions, and that trial means a trial before Quarter Sessions or the Assizes. As far as this Section is concerned, I am confident it is applicable to ordinary proceedings, but between now and the time this Bill reaches another place, if anyone can produce arguments to the contrary, I will look into the matter.
Is the Home Secretary not shaken in his construction by the view of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Rawlinson), who has expressed directly the opposite view? If there is any doubt on this point, I hope it will be cleared up, and I am quite sure we can leave it to the right hon. Gentleman to deal with.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 2.—(Power to Give in Evidence Statements of Witnesses at Preliminary Investigations.)
(1) Where a person is tried, either by court-martial or by a Civil Court with a jury (including as respects Scotland the High Court of Justiciary), for any offence against any regulations made under the Defence of the Realm Consolidation Act, 1914, as amended by any subsequent enactment, and the charge has previously been investigated and a summary of evidence taken by the proper military authority in Accordance with the provisions of the Army Act and the rules of procedure made thereunder, then, on any such trial—
( a ) the evidence on oath of any witness which is proved to have been taken down in writing at such investigation, in accordance with those rules, and purports to be signed or attested and witnessed in accordance therewith, may, if it is further proved that the witness is dead, or so ill as not to be able to travel, or unable to attend, having regard to the interests of the public service, by reason of his being actively engaged in the naval or military service of
( b ) any statement of the accused added in writing in accordance with those rules may, if necessary, be given in evidence against him without further proof thereof,
and a statement appended to the summary purporting to be signed by the officer before whom the summary was taken, that the evidence contained in the summary was taken in accordance with the said rules shall be evidence of the fact so stated, and that officer shall be deemed to be the proper military authority to take the summary, unless the contrary is proved.
(2) For removing doubts it is hereby declared that the evidence of any witness on any such investigation may be taken on oath, and the officer conducting the investigation has power to administer oaths for the purpose.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "either by court-martial or."
8.0 P.M.
I submit this Amendment without any disrespect to the military authorities, and merely for the reason that no military authorities who have not in other times been judicial authorities can have the knowledge of ordinary legal procedure which is possessed by our judges. I entirely agree with the Home Secretary that in an ordinary Criminal Court, where a witness is not forthcoming because of illness or death and the deposition is read, the jury are on the alert, and the judge is certain to point out to the jury the disadvantages. On the whole, I agree with the Home Secretary that the prisoner stands to gain rather than to lose in that way; but it is a different thing with a military tribunal, because military authorities are accustomed to have some of the most important events of their lives decided by confidential reports. They are accustomed to deal with business very largely by written reports. If, therefore, you leave in the words "court-martial" you make it possible for a person to be tried and, if necessary, condemned by a tribunal without any person being brought before it, a tribunal which is so much in the habit, and rightly in the habit, of dealing upon written reports alone. They might not realise with the same force as a judge or a jury the disadvantages that exclusive method of evidence presents. There is also the further disadvantage that there is no appeal from the court-martial to the Court of Criminal Appeal. You, therefore, have not a further tribunal thoroughly versed in the difficulties of such matters as these to supervise and, if necessary, correct the decision arrived at by the court-martial.
The leaving out of these words would not limit the scope of the Bill nearly so much as might appear, because Section 1, Sub-section (2), of the Defence of the Realm Act of this year provides that where a person, being a British subject but not being a person subject to the Naval Discipline Act or to military law, is alleged to be guilty of an offence against the Realm, he may be tried by a Civil Court with a jury. All that one is asking is that, without such a person having to ask for it, he should have a civil trial as a matter of course where some witness was not available personally because he was serving with the King's Forces abroad. My Amendment would merely extend under these particular conditions the right which is now given on the motion of the accused man to be tried by a Civil Court. If my Amendment were accepted, it would not impair military authority; it would only slightly extend the powers given in the Defence of the Realm Act this year. Where the actual witnesses were not available or where one of them was not available, although alive and well, serving with the Forces, the accused, if one of His Majesty's British subjects, would have the security of being tried by that form of tribunal which is experienced in trying cases where one witness or more may be away, and where, further, there is an appeal to the Supreme Court of Criminal Appeal. I hope it is thoroughly understood that in putting this Amendment forward I am not saying anything disrespectful or discourteous to the military authorities. I merely say that their particular experience is not quite of the same kind as that of judges and juries, and in this special case I think that His Majesty's subjects ought to have the power of getting that particular form of trial. I will willingly accept any suggestion to limit it to British subjects only in the words of, I will not say of my right hon. Friend's favourite child, but of one of his numerous children.
My hon. Friend started by saying that he did not move his Amendment out of any disrespect for the military authorities. I am quite sure that he did not, but rather because he thought that they were not so well versed, naturally, in the law and the procedure of trial as judges or men accustomed to sit in a judicial capacity. I must say that the military officers whom we employ to sit upon these courts-martial have in the last two months had very considerable experience in the machinery of the law.
Not on the particular point of absent witnesses.
The hon. Member says, and I think truly, that a prisoner rather stands to gain than to lose by the absences of a witness.
In a civil tribunal.
In a civil tribunal, because there is a jury.
And a judge.
My argument really is this. Because these military officers are not so well versed in the law, they partake much more of the nature of the ordinary man, such as sit on a jury, and if my hon. Friend is anxious not only for justice, as I am sure he principally is, but anxious also on the side of the prisoner, then I would say that because these officers have not that wide experience which a judge has they are much more likely to be impressed by the absence of a. witness.
They are not so in the habit of dealing with the matter.
My hon. Friend, at any rate, has laid himself open to that argument, and I would ask him to think it over even although it may give him a wakeful night. I must say on behalf of the military authorities that it would really prejudice the usefulness of this Act if we were not allowed our courts-martial. I am sure my hon. Friend and the Committee desire that this legislation should be useful principally from the point of view, as I have already indicated, of these cases of espionage, and it would be almost a disaster to this legislative effort if these words were struck out. If the Committee are anxious that this should be an effective instrument, then I trust they will reject the Amendment of my hon. Friend.
I should like to associate myself with the observations which have just fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, and to point out to the hon. Member (Sir R. Adkins) that it is not as if we had a mere ex parte statement before us which we are seeking to have admitted in evidence; it is a deposition which has already been taken by a magistrate, in most cases with opportunities of cross-examination. It is not therefore likely to be a statement which is not regulated by the laws of evidence. Those investigations as the result of which this deposition emerges have been conducted in most cases by properly trained persons. The deposition therefore is already a legal document, and, as we already know by the discussion which has taken place on Clause 1, is admitted in civil proceedings in many cases by express Statutory authority. Let me give an instance. It may be that the deposition is that of a witness who is called to prove a document. The naval or military official who is the custodian of a particular document, or the person by whose direction entries had been made in such a document, must be a witness under Statute to prove it. Are we going to have it said, because formal proof of a document is given by deposition in the absence of the witness, that the prisoner should be entitled to say, "I claim my right to be tried in a Civil Court by a jury." What is a Civil Court? It is either the Quarter Sessions or the Assizes. How much longer is a prisoner in his own interest to be kept in gaol until one or other of those tribunals meet? The court-martial would meet within a reasonable time after the offence was committed and the investigations took place. The House would be very unwise to delete these words.
I know that on the passing of the Defence of the Realm Act there was a discussion in relation to courts-martial and many persons expressed great suspicion; but I said then, and I repeat to-night, having since the War broke out had not a little experience of the manner in which courts-martial are now conducted, especially when counsel are present on both sides, as happens in most cases of a serious character and certainly of espionage, that I have never seen anything in the conduct of those courts-martial which could give any ground at all for suspicion. Having regard to the difficulties I have already pointed out, the witness probably being only required to give formal proof of a small matter, I think the court-martial would find itself very considerably embarrassed and the strength of the system would be considerably weakened unless these words were retained and no alteration made in the status of the trial simply by reason of the absence of a witness gone away.
Question, "That those words stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "offence" ["for any offence"], to insert the words "not punishable with death (against any regulations").
I have marked that as consequential.
It is not necessarily consequential on the alteration in Clause 1. Really the two Clauses are quite distinct, and, therefore, I do not think my Amendment is out of order. I do not want to go through the whole argument again, although, of course, the circumstances are slightly different, but I will just appeal to the Home Secretary to give way on this Amendment.
If my hon. Friend will allow me, I will point out it would be very anomalous to set up one position in one Clause and a different position in the next.
It is very true it would be anomalous to have one position in Clause 1 and a different position in Clause 2, but this goes further even than that. The Committee has already decided, in respect of Clause 1, where you are dealing with the ordinary civil procedure of the country and not with the question of Military Courts at all, that you may, in certain circumstances, read the depositions of a witness because he is away at the front. But when you are dealing with the Courts referred to in Clause 2, you are asked to provide that you may not read the depositions even though the witness be dead. There is an obvious inconvenience in making a distinction of that kind. The question whether the offence is punishable with death depends in this time of war on the gravity of the circumstances, and I do not believe it would be found practicable to draw this distinction.
We inserted a safeguard in the first Clause when we provided that no evidence should be received save with the consent of the judge before whom the trial took place. Cannot the Home Secretary put similar words into this Clause? If he will, my objection will be very largely met.
I should like to ask, at the same time, if this will cover the case of depositions for the prisoners as well as for the other side? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree to put in these words.
I think the suggestion of the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire is a very valuable one, and we shall be very happy to introduce at the end of this Subsection a similar provision to that which was inserted in Clause 1.
On that understanding I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), leave out the word "interests" ["interests of the public services"], and insert instead thereof the word "necessities."
I beg to move, in order to carry out the suggestion of the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire (Mr. Molteno), to insert at the end of Sub-section (1) the words, "provided that no evidence shall be received under the powers of this Section save with the consent of the Court before which the trial takes place."
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert the words, "and it is further hereby declared that this Section shall not apply in any case where the preliminary investigation has been held in camera, nor in any case where the witness has not been cross-examined on behalf of the accused." There is a danger, I think, if a preliminary examination is held in camera, and there is no cross-examination on the part of the accused, that a man may be imprisoned without fair evidence being produced against him. We have had, as we all know, a considerable number of cases held in camera. We do not quite understand why. It does not appear to be necessary, but, at any rate, some magistrates seem to take the view that the less the publicity given to the case the better. They may be quite right in that. Yet you have not got that safeguard which we have been accustomed to have of these cases being made public. A number of very hard cases have occurred, I believe—indeed, presiding judges have sometimes called attention to them. I should like to provide against anything like the impression getting abroad that by administrative decree you may imprison a man. In this country we have always held that the administrative and the judicial departments should be separate, and when it comes to a case of the State being against an individual we always endeavour to bring in an impartial person to judge, and evidence which can be thoroughly tested and sifted. These preliminary examinations are very often of a most perfunctory character, so far as the tendering of evidence is concerned. Very often there is no cross-examination at all. We all desire some assurance that the evidence which has been put forward has been put to some test—that test we so well understand, that of cross-examination. I propose to secure those objects by the Amendment I now move.
I am not without hope that I shall be able, by a statement I have to make, to satisfy my hon. Friend, though I cannot accept the proposal that he makes as he makes it. Perhaps he will forgive me for saying that the second part of his proposal is obviously unacceptable. If it was really the case that the right to read evidence at the trial depended upon whether the witness had been cross-examined on behalf of the accused, it is quite obvious to any lawyer that there would be cases in which a prudent defendant would take very good care not to cross-examine.
He would know the witness was not to be called.
I am dealing with the facts. If the gentleman looked as if he were clearly in bad health, or, what is more likely, if he looked in very good health and said he was going to the front next week, very likely the man would say, "I hope he will stay there, and in the meantime I will take good care not to cross-examine him." By that device he would prevent the possibility of the evidence being read at the trial. I am sure my hon. Friend does not mean that, but that he means that there shall have been full opportunity for cross-examination.
Hear, hear!
An opportunity for full cross-examination is exactly what he has now. Although the hen. Member has not appreciated the fact, he has it because the provisions of the Army Act and the rules of procedure made thereunder, which are referred to in Sub-section (1) of Clause 2, are exactly these provisions—namely, that no evidence of this sort can be accepted save in the presence of the accused and after there has been the fullest opportunity for cross-examination, if he wants it. My hon. Friend will see that, so far as that point is concerned, it is met. The next point is a serious one. He says, "I do not like these trials in camera. " I say quite frankly, neither do I, nor does any man who knows how British justice in ordinary time of peace is administered. Perhaps I may tell him something which has not been previously announced, that, so far as my responsibilities are concerned, I have actually sent round a circular, in view of questions put to me in this House a short time ago, and called the specific attention of those who preside in these cases to the circumstance that a trial in camera is a wholly exceptional method, and that even when it has to be resorted to for a particular piece of evidence that does not mean that it is to be resorted to for the whole trial, and that it ought always to be regarded as a course only to be adopted, first, where the prosecution solemnly submit that it is necessary in the public interest, and, secondly, where the tribunal is itself satisfied that in its discretion a portion of the evidence should be so taken. I have done that, because I agree with the representations made in this House that there is a certain risk that we might get out of our good traditional ways. I do not think it would be at all practicable in a Bill of this sort to set up a different standard of what is evidence at the trial according as to whether a particular emergency existed which compels a little evidence to be given in camera. The less evidence given in camera the better I am pleased. I think the result of our discussion will greatly strengthen the hands of the authorities in their desire to avoid proceedings of this sort so far as can be properly justified, though, of course, there are cases where it is quite necessary and right, but where, I hope, we shall be as careful as we can. As regards the preliminary military investigation, I think I am right in saying it has always been the practice to treat the matter as not open to the public. Those are the prin- ciples upon which we try to act, and which are generally understood in the Law Courts of the country.
Perhaps I may be allowed, to say with what great pleasure I have listened to the statement of the Home Secretary. I am one of those who, in a small way, have criticised from time to, time the holding of so many trials as possible—at least so it seemed to me— in camera. I have listened to his statement now and heard of the action he has taken with the greatest satisfaction, and I am sure there are many other people who will be equally glad.
My misgivings are-relieved to some extent, but not entirely removed by what the Home Secretary has said. I am very much obliged to him for what he has said. In view of what he has, agreed to insert at the end of the Clause,. I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 3.—(Proof of Naval or Military Service.)
A certificate signed by a secretary or assistant secretary of the Admiralty or Army Council that a person is unable to attend, having regard to the interests of the public service, by reason of his being actively engaged in the naval or military service of His Majesty, shall for the purposes of this Act be conclusive evidence of the fact so certified, and a certificate purporting to be signed by such a secretary or assistant secretary shall be deemed to be such a certificate as aforesaid unless the contrary is proved.
Amendment made: Leave out the word "interests" ["having regard to the interests of the public service"], and insert instead thereof the word "necessities."— [ Mr. King. ]
I beg to move, to leave out the words "shall, for the purposes of this Act, be conclusive," and to insert instead thereof the words, "may, if the Court so think fit, be, for the purposes of this Act, accepted as."
Really, I cannot accept this. We have given the substance of this point already, and as the Court already has the power to refuse to accept evidence it plainly would not be right to introduce it here too.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 4.—(Application of Documentary Acts to Army Council and Secretary for Scotland.)
The Documentary Evidence Act, 1868, as amended by the Documentary Evidence Act, 1882, shall apply to the Army Council as if the Army Council was mentioned in the first column of the Schedule to the first mentioned Act, and as if two members of the Army Council, or the secretary to the Army Council, or any person authorised by the Army Council to act on their behalf, were mentioned in the second column of that Schedule, and shall apply to the Secretary for Scotland as if the Secretary for Scotland were mentioned in the first column of the said Schedule and as if the Secretary for Scotland or an under-secretary or assistant under-Secretary for Scotland were mentioned in the second column of that Schedule.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "and shall apply to the Local Government Board for Ireland as if the Local Government Board for Ireland were mentioned in the first column of the said Schedule, and as if a Commissioner of the Local Government Board for Ireland or a secretary or assistant secretary of the said Board were mentioned in the second column of that Schedule."
This is for the purpose of bringing the Orders and directions, which may be given from time to time, of the Local Government Board in Ireland into conformity with the Orders and directions given by other Boards like the Board of Education, the Post Office, the Insurance Commissioners, the Ministry of Munitions, the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and other Boards of that kind. It is simply to make the Orders uniform.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I wish to make this clear. As I understand it, this Clause, as amended, is intended to be a permanent part of the law. I put that point because the Bill has, to a great extent, been spoken of simply as an emergency Bill. I understand the position to be that Clause I only lasts during the continuance of the War, that Clause 2 lasts for the same time as the Defence of the Realm Consolidation Act—and that, I think, is for the continuance of the War only—that Clause 3 depends on these two and the same applies to it, but that Clause 4 will be permanent and will still stand after the end of the War. The Amendment made in the law by Clause 4 is a very important one which should have been made long ago, and I am very pleased that it should be made now. It seems rather a complicated way of doing it, but I suppose it could not be helped in the circumstances.
I think it is very undesirable to put into a Bill, which is in the main part an emergency Bill, this Clause, which is really something rather different. It comes under the title, of course, but it does not come in here at all well, and at the end of the War this Clause will be the only part of the Act which will remain in force. I put it to the Home Secretary could he not drop it now and bring it in as a separate Bill at an early date? I shall not press the point, but it is an awkward way of doing it.
I agree there is a certain inconvenience in having Clauses in the same Bill, some of which will drop at the end of the War and others of which will go on. To that extent it is an awkward way of doing it, but it would be a great deal more awkward if I tried to promote two Bills instead of one. This is a perfectly obvious principle which no human being can call controversial, and I think it is a thing which, in the time of a Coalition Government and a unanimous House of Commons, might well be allowed to pass.
Question put, and agreed to.
CLAUSE 5 ( Short Title ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
It seems to me that the new Clauses standing in the name of the hon. Member (Mr. King) ought to come as Amendments to Clause 3, and not as new Clauses.
I wanted to put it to the Home Secretary whether there is anything that strikes his eye that pleases him. If so I will go on. If they do not I will not move them.
I cannot allow them to be moved in any case.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, as amended, to the House."
Earlier in the day, before these Orders were coming on, my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland, I understood, was very eager to get on to these measures. He rudely interrupted a question of mine to the Chair and has never been seen in the House since. I protest against such deplorable conduct.
That is not quite relevant to the Question.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill reported, without Amendment; as amended, considered; read the third time, and passed.
Education (Small Population Grants)
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the suspension in connection with the present War of the Grants payable under paragraph (2) of Section 19 of the Elementary Education Act, 1876, and the Education Code (1890) Act, 1890, and the provision out of moneys provided by Parliament of other Grants in lieu thereof."
The object of this Resolution is to allow the introduction of a Bill to effect some important economies in the administration of the small population Grants, to put an end during the War and during the abnormal period which will follow the War to the heavy administrative work which the law requires in connection with these Grants, and to pay to the local education authorities in place of these Grants a sum exactly equal to the sum they receive in respect of the Grants in a standard year. Grants were first given by Section 19 of the Elementary Education Act, 1876, and amounted to £15 for a school in a school district with a population of 200 and under, and £10 in the case of a school in a. school district with a population between 200 and 300. In 1890, under the Education Code (1890) Act, a further Grant of £10 was authorised in respect of populations under 500 on the condition that the school satisfied the conditions of the Education Department in regard to special Grants. The Grant, therefore, consists of two parts, an unconditional part limited to schools with a population of under 300, and a conditional part limited to schools where the population is under 500. To ascertain whether these Grants have been earned two calculations are necessary, both of which entail an immense amount of work in the offices of the local education authorities and of the Board of Education. In the first place, it is necessary to ascertain that the population falls within the prescribed limits, that is to say, it is necessary not only to ascertain that the population is under 500, but also to ascertain whether it is between 300 and 500, or between 200 and 300, or under 200. The area for the purpose of ascertaining the population may be either the parish in which the school is situated, or an area within two miles, measured according to the nearest road from the school.
For the purpose of calculating the population it is not sufficient to take the figures of the last Census, because they may have been varied considerably either by rise or fall in the population, particularly since the War commenced. Where there is any reason to suspect a change of population the figures of the previous year can be accepted as the basis of the Grant; but if the figures are near to one of the limits I have mentioned, then the Board of Education is under the necessity of requiring a census of the district to be taken by the local education authority. It is probable that there may be about 400 special censuses of this kind to be taken during the year. To take the census of a parish is a laborious matter, but it is a simple matter. It is far more difficult to take the census of an area when it falls within two miles measured according to the nearest road from the school. All kinds of difficult questions arise as to what is a road, and what is the nearest road from the school. There may be a question as to whether children can be allowed to take a short cut; whether a ferry across a stream may be regarded as a road, and whether a road that is flooded during certain seasons may be regarded as a road. Difficulties of that kind are constantly arising in connection with the interpretation of what is a road. Even when these difficulties have been overcome, and when it has been ascertained that the population falls within the prescribed limits, it is is necessary further to ascertain the fact that the staff of the school has satisfied the requirements of the Code. That often involves a very complicated calculation. The staff may constantly vary. I have had under my notice a case of a parish school where the staff varied twenty-four times in the course of a single year, and where an enormous amount of work was cast upon the local education authority and upon the Board of Education in order to ascertain to what extent that school had fulfilled the necessary staffing requirements. The ultimate result was that it was shown that that school was under-staffed for a period of three months and five days, and that therefore a total amount of £2 10s. must be deducted from the Grant. I feel sure the Committee will agree with me that that is wholly disproportionate to the trouble and labour which is involved in these calculations.
There is another point in connection with the Bill which I seek leave to introduce, and it is that the present circumstances have involved the necessity of abrogating some of the staffing conditions of the schools. Owing to the exigencies of the War and the way in which teachers have responded to the call to the Colours, there is a deficiency of teachers. That difficulty must be met as best it can in all kinds of schools on the broad principle that the work must be carried on as well as possible. It is necessary in these circumstances to relax the stringent statutory conditions attaching to small population Grants. This does not by any means mean that the Board of Education will not continue to exercise supervision over the small schools to which they have lately given special attention. I would remind the Committee that the staffs, both of the Board of Education and of the local authorities, have been greatly depleted by enlistments. I therefore ask the Committee to be good enough to pass this Resolution, in order that we may get rid of an enormous amount of wholly unnecessary work.
I rise to express my thanks to the right hon. Gentleman for the explanation which he has given of this Resolution. I am sure it commends itself to the small Committee present, and I think it is a model that Ministers would do well to follow, instead of trying to slip Money Resolutions through without doing us the courtesy of giving us an explanation. I do thank the right hon. Gentleman for having given us such a full explanation.
I wish to associate myself entirely with the remarks of my hon. Friend (Mr. Booth). I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his admirable explanation. We shall have an opportunity of discussing the Bill on Second Reading, and possibly then I may have a few remarks to make.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Exports to Neutral Countries
Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Before the House adjourns I should like to put one or two questions to the Government in regard to a matter which I regard as of great importance, namely, the export of goods to neutral European countries, with the probability—I might almost say the certainty —that they have an enemy destination. I imagine that the position of the Government is what it was in March last, when it was defined by the Prime Minister. At that time the German submarines were creating a good deal of trouble round the coast, and the right hon. Gentleman made a declaration of policy in regard to this and cognate matters. He said: not in any way—far from it—desire to indicate that the Navy are in the slightest degree to blame. The Navy has performed its work with splendid success The inefficiency which has existed is due, I fear, to some extent to the failure of the Government to issue the instructions that are really necessary to make the blockade as perfect as we would wish it to be. The fact is that there is not by any means a complete blockade at the present time. I have no doubt that the Noble Lord (Lord Robert Cecil) will agree that that is a truthful statement. Wherever the responsibility has got to be placed, I think that he will admit that the blockade is not complete, or anything like it. From my point of view I think that that is because the Government failed to make contraband many articles which they should have made contraband. I will go further, and would like to know what the Noble Lord thinks as to whether they ought not to have power to confiscate goods going to the enemy that are found on neutral ships.
The particular question which I desire to bring under the attention of the Noble Lord is the question of oils going to neutral countries, and, as I think, finally getting into the hands of the enemy. I refer especially to-night to linseed oil, though I think that even a stronger case could be made with regard to oils and fats generally. A considerable time ago linseed oil was not allowed to be exported from this country to neutral countries bordering on Germany. After a time that was changed, for what reason I have never been able to understand, and it has been allowed to go into Holland and, as I contend, finally get across the frontier into Germany. I want the House to be seized with the importance of linseed oil in regard to the munitions of war. It is of great war value because it contains glycerine, which is essential for explosives and can also be used for other very important war purposes. The next fact of importance with regard to this matter is that Germany is very short of linseed oil and fats generally; so much so, that a short time ago the German Minister of Agriculture issued a special memorandum to all the farming community in Germany drawing attention to the importance of growing plants of a character which would assist in the production of oil. That shows the extremity at which the German Government thought they had arrived. They refer to the great lack of fats and oils resulting from the limited imports from abroad, and the great needs of the Army, and say that all means must be set to work in order to provide for the storage as far as possible, and they add:—
9.0 P.M.
The first consideration with regard to the matter is that by the action which we have taken in exporting this linseed oil we are absolutely levying a heavy fine on our own manufacturers in this country. Take my own Constituency. Manufacturers there are agreed that the fact that this export is allowed to go to Holland at the present time to the extent to which it is allowed means a fine of £100,000 a year in my Constituency alone, where linseed oil is very much used owing to the nature of the local manufacturers. These considerations point to the importance of this matter. Note the remarkable increase that has taken place in our exports of linseed oil to Holland. In 1913 for the first nine months the whole of our export to Holland was 453 tons. For the first nine months of. 1914 it was 299 tons. For the first nine months of 1915, after the War, it was 29,511 tons. Surely the Noble Lord will agree that that was a most remarkable case, which, I think, requires some explanation. The Noble Lord has had the facts of the case for some time back, so no doubt he will have been able by this time to form an opinion with regard to them. It does not rest there, because the exports from Holland to Germany have also a very important bearing on this point. Export for the same period of nine months from Holland to Germany was 4,803 tons; after the War it was 79,000. Linseed oil costs less than £30 a ton in this country. In Berlin and Hamburg sellers can easily get £60 for it. My hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Bigland), who is an expert in that business, probably would not contradict me if I said that it was very much higher than that. I believe that some has changed hands at £100 or even more per ton. Therefore there is a colossal amount of money being made somewhere in regard to this one particular article. On the figures which I have given £1,000,000 profit could be made, even taking £60 a ton, which is a low figure as far as Germany is concerned.
I would ask the Under-Secretary can he give us some explanation of this most extraordinary increase? Can he console us by saying that he thinks that it does not mean what it appears to mean, or can he only say to us that it has been allowed to go into Germany, but that now he is hopeful that he will be able to stop it? I would like to go even further than that, and ask him what was his view during the time before he went to the Foreign Office as to this particular article being allowed to go into the hands of the enemy, as there is no doubt whatever it has been allowed to do? I can imagine the fine play which the Noble Lord would have made with those figures if he had fortunately, as I should have hoped, been a free lance at the present moment. Not only is there an increase with regard to linseed oil, but with regard to produce and manufactures generally in reference to our exportation to Holland. For the three months ending 30th September, 1914, the general produce and manufactures exported from this country to Holland were £2,388,250, and in 1915, after the War, they were £4,009,544; so that there was an increase in produce and manufactures alone, in the three months ending 30th September, of £1,621,294. I am prepared to hear from the Noble Lord to-night that the Overseas Trust have this matter in hand. He may or may not think that they are dealing with this matter from a desirable point of view. Pessonally, I do not think they are, from all the information that I have been able to receive, both from the other side and from this side. I would like to know whether the Noble- Lord is satisfied with the manner in which the Trust is carrying out its obligations.
A weak point appears to be that, although they are all Dutchmen who are managing the Trust, many of them, I think the most important of them, are also directors of great concerns in Germany, and of course intimately associated with German works and development, some of them being great coal directors and so forth. I do not know what their sympathies are, but at any rate, from the business point of view, they are very closely associated with Germany. There is no secret about the fact that in smaller things even than linseed oil smuggling is going on a great deal in Holland; it has almost begun to be a profession; a very considerable number of people, to quote the authority of the leading papers, which discuss the matter very freely, are on the frontier of Holland awaiting a favourable opportunity of carrying goods through to the enemy country. Many smaller things are smuggled, and I think we want strong evidence to show that linseed oil is not reaching the enemy nation. Now that the Overseas Trust has been operating for some considerable time, I would like to ask the Noble Lord whether he cannot hold out hope of an independent inquiry on his own behalf over there, to see whether or not there is any ground for the allegations which we are making. If the Noble Lord appointed someone in whom we had complete confidence to go over there and study the whole thing on the spot, I should be greatly influenced by the decision, but at the present time the information in my possession points to the fact that goods are going from Holland to Germany. I will go further, and say that for my part I would stop the exportation of linseed oil altogether. Surely the question of mutual interests cannot arise in this matter; they have had their fair share of linseed oil, and we should stop it in our own interests, in the interests of our manufacturers, and above all in the interests of this nation. I should say that our own interests ought to come first and all the time, consistent, of course, with the ordinary courtesies which ought to prevail in regard to neutral nations. The Prime Minister also said, in his statement, that he was also going to stop goods leaving Germany. This is a question which is not new to the Noble Lord. I have never yet been able to be convinced, so far as the Government position in the matter is concerned—I allude to the fact that with the cognisance and approval of the Government they have allowed £37,000,000 worth of goods—
No.
What is the figure?
Nothing like that.
I understood it was in the neighbourhood of £30,000,000, but perhaps the figure is over-stated, and is not so high, and if that is so I am glad. I did not think it could be so high myself, but I thought it was by no means an insignificant sum; but the principal fact is, that with the cognisance and approval of the Government, we have allowed German goods in time of war to go to America and be sold there. I have myself seen advertisements in New York papers in which it was stated that, with the kind permission of the British Government, the advertisers were able to sell so-and-so, which had arrived by a certain ship. It is no answer to say that those goods were bought before the War. After all, if we had not allowed those goods to go to America, and some of them had probably come to our own market, those goods would have gone on the market after the War, and blocked the goods now being made to flood America after the War. I never quite assented to the Government's position in regard to that. There is the further fact that the neutrals bordering on Germany have been sending 300 per cent. more exports than before the War to America, suggesting that some German goods must be going to neutral countries, in addition to what we allowed to go, too. It seems to me that these are points which require some attention on the part of the Government. We also had an announcement, quite recently, that an arrangement had been made with Denmark. I do not think there has been any public announcement, so far as this House is concerned, but I understand that an arrangement has now been made with two associations of merchants on behalf of Denmark, whereby they are going to be allowed to handle the exports of this country, practically on the lines of the Overseas Trust. I ask for information on that point, and I hope the Noble Lord will be able to give it to me. If the announcement that appears is correct, that they are to be allowed to handle exports from this country, and also to be allowed to send a certain kind of goods not contraband to belligerents as well, I think that is a very serious position for the Government to take up. I hope the Noble Lord will tell us clearly whether, in the arrangement that has been made with the merchants' associations of Denmark, they are to be permitted to send goods that are not contraband to Germany, or whether that has been expressly forbidden.
I hope we may have some more information than we have yet had on that point, for it seems to me to be opening a very dangerous door indeed, if that policy is allowed to be carried into effect. My general feeling with regard to the matter, and I think it is shared outside, is that the Government, long before it was represented by the Noble Lord, have never been firm enough to stop the goods going through neutral countries and subsequently to Germany, and that they have never acted with half the vigour they ought to have shown. It is one way to beat the enemy, and sometimes just as effective as beating him in the field. I contend that they ought to have shown some more firmness and more vigour than they have exhibited up to the present time. I am sure that no one would doubt that the Noble Lord is as keen as any Member of this House in his desire to stop goods going through neutral countries to assist the enemy. I recognise that there have been difficulties in the way, so far as neutral countries are concerned, but I think we are now beyond that. We have been fifteen months at War, and we ought to know to-day whether we cannot stop these goods going to the assistance of the enemy. I hope to-night that the Noble Lord will be able to make a reassuring statement. There is a strong feeling outside the House, and I should very much welcome a statement which would prove that my suspicions can be regarded as unfounded.
I should like to associate myself with the Member for Kirkcaldy, who has opened this subject for discussion. It is a matter of national importance, and I think myself, speaking generally, that the fault of the Government has lain in their morbid sensitiveness to the feelings of others, and their rather, shall I say comparative indifference to our own interests and national rights? However, it may be considered a good point when the Government thinks more of the feelings of others than of themselves; but, if I might make a suggestion to my right hon. Friend, it is this: Although it is late in the day, in regard to all our friendly neutral countries, seeing that Germany has broken up all the conventions that have been made, if five men enter into an agreement, and if that has gone on for a long time, and a number of well-known customs have grown up around it, and if one of them falls away from that agreement, then its terms are not binding on the other four. Our Government has rather felt that as we were parties to The Hague Conventions, as has over and over again been stated in this House and the country, that they are honourably bound to live up to those Hague Conventions. I do not hold that. I hold that the policy we should have pursued was to have invited our friends from New York and Holland, and Denmark and Sweden, to have met us here, and then to have said to them, "All those conventions are broken, and we are now prepared to meet you as friendly neighbours, and to make terms with you on which your overseas trade shall be conducted during this War, because, while we have been trying to live up to those Conventions, we have been allowing Germany to feed herself through neutrals." I have only to put the case of the "Kym," which was tried in our own Prize Courts. Our Government felt that it was not right to intervene in trade between neutral country and neutral country, provided that that trade was carried on in neutral bottoms. But our Prize Court decided that the evidence was so clear that the contents of those ships were going to the enemy, and that all those goods, consisting of many millions of tons of food, which had gone through those neutral countries were really conditional contraband, that therefore we had the right to stop them.
On that question comes up the subject which my hon. Friend has brought for ward to-night. I have sympathy with the Government case, and I know some of the difficulties they are up against. When we come to speak of the actual trade of linseed oil, the position rather is this: After a certain time all exports of linseed oil from this country were prohibited. Then, I understand, a deputation of linseed-oil crushers waited on the Government and they said, "It will be impossible for us to provide food for the cattle of this country if we are not to be allowed to export the oil, because we cannot go on making the cake if we have no sale for the oil." To show the urgency of the matter, and speaking from memory, because I did not know that this matter was coming on to -night, I am informed that the market of linseed oil fell in Hull from 24s. to 17s. 9d. per cwt., and at that price it was impossible for the crushers of this country to go on making the oil and not to be allowed to export it. The Government said, "Very well, the interests of the farmers and of the food of the people is more important than letting Germany have linseed oil." That was why the flood of linseed oil was let loose into Holland, and which went through to Germany. At that time the Government did not realise that linseed oil, instead of being a product solely for making linoleum and other things, could by a wonderful chemical discovery at small expense be converted into edible fat, and that it is now largely used in the manufacture of margarine. The trouble the Government is up against at the present moment is this: Holland exports to Great Britain enormous quantities of margarine every week, and naturally the Dutch merchants say, "If you do not allow the oil to come to our market we cannot send you margarine." It is a question for our Government whether they shall say that it is far more important to starve our enemy than even that the people of this country shall have margarine. They can get substitutes for margarine, but the Germans cannot get any substitute for fat. I hold that it is an absolute necessity for the 67,000,000 of Germans to have fat this coming winter to enable them to live, and if they cannot get it they will have to submit to the fact that they are beaten, and if our Government could so outline their policy that it would be utterly impossible for Germany through any neutral country to obtain supplies of nuts, or seeds, or oil, during the next seven months, then I believe we should win this War in very quick time.
The trouble is not only with oil. The Dutch people, if they are allowed to import seed, can make the oil in their mills in Amsterdam, which is one of the greatest crushing centres in Europe. I find that our own mills in India want to sell linseed to Amsterdam, and if we allow it to go from British Possessions and Dependencies to Amsterdam, they can still make the oil to ship into Germany, and can make margarine to ship into Germany. I believe that the trade across the border of which my hon. Friend has spoken is not going on in large quantities at the present time. There are small lots of goods manufactured into soap and margarine and other articles of that sort whereby the people of Germany are supplying themselves in small quantities. As I say, I do not think that is going on in large quantities, but it is very difficult to say, for this reason, that our Government is permitting enormous quantities of oils of various sorts to go into Holland to manufacture margarine for ourselves nominally. My information is that the people of Holland do not consume such a very large quantity of this margarine, but it is essential to us. It is a practical difficulty which the people of this country must be willing to face. I think the time has come when we should only allow sufficient fats to go into Holland to feed themselves. Their own consumption of margarine is, according to my estimate, 400 tons per week, but according to other estimates it is up to 800 tons per week. Then give them produce to enable them to make 800 tons of margarine per week and stop them at that, and say to our own people: "We are very sorry, you cannot have any margarine that is not made in this country, or in some other country but not coming from Holland to Denmark." That would be a drastic measure. The figures that I have made up with experts checking my figures claim that over and above the 2,000 tons per week of margarine coming into this country during the last nine months, there have been sufficient oils, nuts and fats to make 2,000 tons per week in addition to the Dutch consumption, and if that is true, we have been far too liberal and far too lax in allowing those enormous quantities of raw material to pass into hands where, when the drawing power of the high prices are so great that it is impossible to stop it.
Therefore, it comes to this, that not only in this particular case that has been spoken of to-night, but in many other cases in other parts, and other countries surrounding Germany, we have, I think, perfect justification for saying, "We agree that you are not strong enough to uphold your own agreements." That is really the position of the neutral countries. I have quoted a case to the Government of a steamer going to Norway by the permit of our English Government, with the guarantee that its contents would stay for the use of the people of Norway, and the steamer was never discharged in Norway. The name of the steamer was the "Pythia." It was boarded in Christiania, and ordered to go to a German port and there discharge. That brings us to this point. If a neutral is not strong enough in herself to carry out her agreements she really cannot claim the privileges of neutrality, because the first right of a neutral to my mind is that she must carry out the bond of her neutrality. If she has not either naval or military power sufficient to carry out her bond, then we are not called upon to fulfil the rights of neutrals which she claims in international law. Therefore it brings us back to the same point, that, while we cannot allow these privileges, being friendly with these countries, we should invite them to come over and talk the matter over with us. When we decided that cotton should be contraband, it was done, as I understand, between London and Washington in a friendly way. We practically gave guarantees to the American people that their great industry should not be injured beyond a certain point—that we would stand there as guarantor that that injury should not come to them. We can do the same with all these other trades. We can meet our American friends and practically guarantee them that no harm shall come to their industries or befall their producers; that we are in a position strong enough to market their goods in the world at a reasonable figure. That is the real point. Behind the Dutch position is our position with regard to the United States. I say there need be no friction on any article they like to name of which we are going to restrict the shipments into neutral countries. I hope the Government will call a meeting of our Allies, friends, and neutral countries, and see if this great difficulty of our enemies supplying themselves through our friends cannot be stopped.
I certainly have not the slightest right and do not wish to complain of this point having been raised to-night, or of the tone of the speeches which have been made. I am indeed grateful for the extreme moderation and courtesy with which the speakers have spoken. Let me deal, first, with the question of oil. As I understand, the complaint is that in the first nine months of this year a very large quantity of linseed oil has gone to Holland. Linseed oil is taken as an instance, but I entirely agree that you cannot take linseed oil separately from others. My right hon. Friend objects equally with regard to other oils, or oil-producing substances. The complaint broadly is that a vast quantity of these oils and oil-producing substances has gone to Holland during the first nine months of this year. That is no doubt true. The official figures leave no question as to that. In spite of the invitation of my right hon. Friend, I am not going to discuss what was or was not the merit of the policy pursued before the present Government took office. I do not think I should be entitled to do so, nor have I really the information before me to enable me to do so. I can only say what is the policy of the Government since I have had the honour of being a member of it. I am informed by the War Trade Department that there has been no export of linseed oil from this country since the beginning of June.
That is right.
That is, since this Government took office. It is not a matter which is, strictly speaking, within the cognisance of the Foreign Office, but as my right hon. Friend was courteous enough to inform me that he was going to raise the question of linseed oil I went to the War Trade Department and saw the principal officials there, who assured me positively that it was prohibited from about the 1st of June—I will not pledge myself to the actual date, but it was about that date—and that only one licence has been granted since that date, and that was a licence for 400 tons granted on the 9th of June to the Dutch Government on some special ground which does not affect anything we are discussing to-night.
They stopped the export of oil, but not the export of linseed.
I am sorry I have not inquired about that point, as I did not know it would be raised.
Does the Noble Lord contend that the figures I gave were for the first six months, and not for the first nine months?
I have given the information supplied to me by the War Trade Department. I had it generally— I caused a special inquiry to be made— and I subsequently saw one of the principal officials of the War Trade Department, who assured me that the figures were right. I could not take any greater precautions to see that I was presenting to the House a proper statement of the facts. But I quite agree that the whole question of imports into Holland from this country or elsewhere of oil-bearing and fatty substances is a very serious matter indeed. We have undoubtedly been uneasy by reason of the stories which have been circulated as to the oil or fat which is said to be going through to Germany, and we have really taken the matter up as closely as we can. We made representations immediately to the Netherlands Government. We said, in the first place, "We think you ought to give us an undertaking, which we shall be able to check and act upon, that no more will be imported into Holland than is reasonable, considering the consumption of Holland." That is the broad principle of rationing which I have often said in this House is, in my judgment, the only satisfactory system upon which to work this matter both for neutral countries and for belligerents. I am glad to say that the Netherlands Government agree, and we have fixed figures based on the consumption of Holland between the years 1911 and 1913. I think my hon. Friends will agree that they afford a fair basis.
But we have had—I fully admit it—to consider the question of the re-export of margarine to this country. We are informed by the Board of Trade that it is really a matter of very great importance to the poorer classes of this country that margarine should come in in sufficient quantities to keep the supply at a reasonable height. It is not a trifle. It is a serious matter. We have got to try and devise some system which will secure that supply without allowing any oil or fatty substances to go through to Germany. In addition to the ordinary guarantees of the Netherlands Government, which have been strengthened lately at our request; in addition to a Bill, or what answers to a Bill, before the legislative authority in Holland greatly to strengthen the laws against smuggling from that country; with reference to margarine, we have arranged that the books of these margarine factories shall be examined periodically by a firm of British accountants, who shall tell us exactly what happens to the product of these factories. I think that these are not insignificant precautions to adopt, and I hope that from them we shall be able to secure three objects—first, the prevention of fats and oils going to Germany; secondly, the supply to this country of margarine, which we are assured is necessary; and, thirdly, to secure to Holland the rights of neutral trade to which she is entitled, not by The Hague Convention, not by any modern agreement, but by the fundamental principles of international law. I think that is the right policy for the Government to pursue. I think I have answered, so far as I can, that question. But the right hon. Gentleman raised many other questions. He suggested there was something wrong with the Netherlands Overseas Trust. I can only say we have HO evidence of such a thing. The other day the hon. Baronet the Member for Mansfield made a charge, the greater part of which—I quote from memory—was to the effect that the members of the Netherlands Overseas Trust were directors of German coal companies. He asked me if that was not so, and I told him that I was not aware of it, but that I should be glad to have any information from him. I have never had a word of information.
I understood the hon. Baronet to say that these members of the Trust who represented coal were connected with German firms.
I am sure I do not wish to misquote the hon. Baronet— I am quoting from memory—but I understood him that his statement was much wider than that. However, whatever the statement was, I asked for information, and I have never received it. I noticed in the paper a day or two after that the president or head of that association gave an interview to the Press in which he hotly denied that any such statement was true. That is the condition of affairs so far as I know in reference to the Netherlands Overseas Trust. We never had any reason to suppose that these gentlemen, who are undoubtedly among the leading commercial men in Holland, were anything but perfectly upright, straightforward, and loyal to their undertaking. You can take any precaution you like, short of the actual cutting off of Holland from all connection with the outside world, but you cannot prevent—it is impossible to prevent by any device you like—the enemy from getting something; you can only minimise it, and that I believe we have done. My right hon. Friend suggested that we should send out somebody to make an independent inquiry. I shall be very glad to do so, and I would like to confer privately with him on that point. That is a suggestion certainly well worth considering. But I do not wish, in saying that, at all to express any dissatisfaction with our agents who are in Holland and who have done their work admirably under very difficult circumstances. There are some other points. My right hon. Friend asked me a question about the Danish Agreement. I am in some difficulty about that, because the Danish Agreement has not been published. It is in some respects not complete, and I do not like to tell the House part of it unless I can tell them the whole. I am not satisfied that I am in a position in which I can tell the House—
I am only going by the official summary.
It is not an official summary. I have not seen it, but I am informed that the summary is entirely inaccurate, and has no relation to the actual facts. I promise, however, my right hon. Friend that I will consult the Secretary of State, and if he thinks there is no objection, and that it may be put upon the Table of the House so that everybody may see what it is, it shall be done. I cannot promise that however, because it may well be that it would be better not to do so. All these matters are—I am sure the House will recognise it—difficult and delicate matters. Anything that is said about an agreement with one country not only interferes with our relations with that country, but may hamper negotiations with other countries. It is really walking among eggs, dealing with these agreements, and I have always felt that I have to be exceedingly careful in what I say. It was suggested by another hon. Gentleman to hold conferences with neutrals and make an agreement. I do not know whether the hon. Member has looked at the history of conference-made agreements? They take an awful long time, and if some parties are not particularly anxious to make the agreement, they may take too long. I do not think that is a very practical suggestion. But with the general principle of making an agreement. I am in hearty sympathy. The Government all this time has succeeded on many occasions in making agreements, not necessarily with the Government of a neutral country, but with the traders, or a section of the traders, or even with the shipping. There are many, many agreements of this kind already in existence. I can assure the hon. Member that our idea is to make agreements, and not to rely upon brutal strength, or even upon international law, or any other security, if we can get an agreement which we believe to be in our interests, and in the interests of neutral countries.
Both my hon. Friends seem to think that the Government have not been strict enough, had not been sufficiently vigorous, and so on. That is a difficult question. I can only say that the business of the Foreign Office is to try and make things work smoothly; to secure our rights, and to secure them not only without infringement of the rights of neutrals—which, of course, not one in this House wishes to do—but also without getting into dangerous and acrimonious disputes. Our business is to secure our rights—or rather our policy is to starve Germany first of all. When I say starve, that is a metaphorical expression, for there is no chance of doing that—but depriving her of certain essential articles. I am sure if the hon. Member were within the walls of the Foreign Office for a few days he would agree with me that it is equally vital and essential not only to preserve our good name, but, what is of enormous importance, our material interests—that we should do nothing to which neutral countries can justly and rightly object. While laying that down as a general principle in the whole of this blockade, particularly because of the difficulties caused in many cases by the interposition of neutral countries, we are placed in this difficulty: You cannot stop goods unless you have evidence of an enemy destination. That is the essential difficulty. As soon as we have got any evidence of enemy destination we use it. If there is no evidence of enemy destination the difficulty is great. That is one of the many reasons why I personally have always advocated the conclusion of the agreements which are called rationing agreements, with social and distributing bodies in various countries, because then if the goods are not consigned through them it raises the presumption that that is being avoided because there is some sinister design, and that those concerned are trying to get through to Germany. That gives you something to go upon to say that there is really in the case of these goods an enemy destination.
That is the way, of course, the hon. Gentleman knows, how the thing is worked, and that is the way in which I hope we shall succeed in forming other agreements working on the same broad general principles. I do not pretend that even with those precautions you will arrive at a perfect success, but I do believe that is the right policy for this country to pursue, and I believe it not only because—although, of course, that is a most important consideration—it will succeed in carrying out the policy we have in view of stopping goods going into Germany, but also because it is by far the most practicable and businesslike policy in the interests of the neutrals concerned. It means far less delay in dealing with shipping—a very important matter for everybody concerned—and it means that all real, genuine neutral trade goes on almost without interruption, or, at any rate, with a minimum of interruption, and that the only people really interfered with are those who are anxious still to carry on trade with Germany. Therefore I strongly advocate that policy. I believe it is a policy perfectly fair in the interests of the neutrals concerned, and it is a policy, I am glad to say, which is growing In favour, I hope, and is being established not only in Holland, but, I hope, in other countries as well.
There is only one other point I need touch, and that is the question of exports from Germany. My right hon. Friend behind me suggested that we had allowed to go out from Germany £37,000,000 worth of goods. I have asked an hon. Friend to telephone to the Foreign Office, and I have got as near as I can to the real figures. I am told that in the case of the United States it is about £2,750,000. You cannot be sure how much more you must add for other neutral countries, such as Spain and South America, but I believe I shall be well over the mark if I say the total is well under £4,000,000. My hon. Friend may say that that is a great deal too much. I can quite understand that, but it is a very different thing from £37,000,000.
There has been an enormous decline. The exports were much greater from Germany some months ago.
That is all the exports we have allowed to go through since 1st March. I have explained so often that I am ashamed of explaining again that these are goods contracted before 1st March, either actually paid for before 1st March, or under such terms that they had to be paid for whether exported or not— that is to say, where we allowed goods to go from Rotterdam to the United States, or wherever it was, the money would go into Germany in any case, and therefore the only people who would be injured by stopping these goods are the neutral purchasers of those goods. That is the principle on which we have proceeded, and I believe it is perfectly true for this reason: that on more than one occasion when we have given permission, the Germans have refused to allow the goods to go out. I do say—I am not accusing my right hon. Friend, who was perfectly fair and courteous in what he said—that it is really monstrous the things that have been said about that in the public Press, partly— perhaps I had better not say for what reason, but at any rate I do protest in the strongest possible way. There, is no ground whatever for saying in that particular we have lightened the burden of the blockade against Germany.
I believe, as I ventured to say a little time ago, this question of exports is the vital question in our whole blockade proceedings. If you could stop the exports from Germany you automatically stop the imports, because they have nothing to pay for them, and I believe our success in doing so has been very, very great indeed. I do not want to put our success too high. My hon. Friend is sanguine enough to think that we should compel Germany to make peace in seven months if we kept back all fats. He may be right; I hope he will be. My experience of warlike pro- phecies has not been a very happy one, and I will not indulge in them. But I do say this, that unquestionably the blockade has produced some effect that it unquestionably has been successful so far as we can tell. I do not think it would be right to count on the immediate destruction of Germany or anything of that kind, but I do think it is fair to say, both of the Foreign Office and of the Navy—mainly of the Navy—so far as blockade is concerned, that it has been a good piece of work, and if I may claim anything for my Office then I claim that by their adroit and successful diplomacy they have enabled the Navy to carry this out without getting us into any serious trouble with any neutral Power.
It being one hour after the conclusion of Government Business, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February.
Adjourned at Eight minutes before Ten o'clock, till Monday next, 6th December.