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Commons Chamber

Volume 76: debated on Wednesday 8 December 1915

House of Commons

Wednesday, December 8, 1915

Factory and Workshop (Notification of Diseases) (Toxic Jaundice)

Copy presented of Order, dated 27th November, 1915, made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, applying the provisions of Section 73 of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, to cases of Toxic Jaundice in Factories and Workshops [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Censorship (Seamens' Letters to Members of Parliament)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether letters addressed by seamen on active service to Members of Parliament at the House of Commons are subject to censorship; and, if so, whether he can explain why the Admiralty pursues a different policy to that practised by the War Office in this respect?

Under Admiralty orders, letters, whether written by Officers or men, are censored on board ship by an officer specially appointed for the purpose. The censorship applies to all letters, to whomever they may be written.

British Bluejackets in Serbia

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he could make a statement as to the operations of Admiral Troubridge and the British bluejackets in Serbia; and what arrangements have been made with regard to this force at present and for the future?

The Naval Mission under Admiral Troubridge, which was sent to assist the Serbian Army in the defence of the river frontier of Serbia, appears to have played a highly creditable part in the resistance offered to the overwhelming Austro-German attack, and then to have accompanied the Serbian Army in its retreat. It is, of course, numerically a very small force, and its disposal must naturally be incidental to the general operations, but it is contemplated to retain it in touch with the Serbian Forces so long as its services can be of use.

Naval Prize Bounty

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if there is any probability of an early payment being made of naval prize bounty; and, if not, if he can state the cause of the delay?

We have prepared, and authority will be sought by Order in Council for, a revised scale of distribution which will be the basis of award both for prize bounty and for prize money. Preliminary steps are now being taken in the preparation of the rolls of the ships' companies considered to be entitled to share in prize bounty. A statement will shortly be ready to enable the Prize Court to determine the amount of prize bounty and the ships to which it should be awarded in respect at any rate of the earlier engagements. It is hoped that payments may be made in respect of these engagements at an early date. As regards prize money, I have already stated that certain questions affecting its distribution are involved in the Naval Prize Bill which the Prime Minister stated on 4th November would be proceeded with without undue delay. But in any case, as I think my hon. Friend will see, it will in all probability be quite impossible to make any distribution until after the close of hostilities.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is possible to make the first distribution of prize bounty this year?

I should very much like to do so before Christmas, but I am rather sceptical about it. All expedition will be used. There is the difficulty of getting the facts from the various ships, and then there are the Prize Courts. I cannot control the Prize Courts. It would give me great pleasure if I could possibly make the distribution.

British Minister at Sofia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give the name of the Minister who succeeded Sir Henry George Bax Ironside, and the date of his arrival in Sofia?

The arrangements come to in regard to His Majesty's Legation at Sofia were described in my answer to the hon. Member for North Somerset on 20th October last, to which reply I have nothing to add.

asked on what grounds the British Minister at Sofia was granted indefinite leave of absence, and on what date he left Sofia?

His Majesty's Minister at Sofia was granted leave of absence and left Sofia on 9th July. The diplomatic negotiations in progress at that time had reached a stage at which a change in the person of our representative was considered desirable.

Persian Affairs

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he could give the House any further information regarding the condition of affairs in Persia?

A full statement of the facts at present in the possession of His Majesty's Government was made yesterday in another place, and I have nothing to add to the information which was then given.

Egypt

asked whether the responsible advisers of the Sultan of Egypt are British or Egyptian; whether martial law is now in force throughout Egypt; and whether any Egyptian troops have been used against the Turks in this War?

The Sultan of Egypt is advised by his Cabinet, the members of which are of Egyptian nationality. We have always accepted responsibility for British advice in Egypt. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative; as regards the third part, which is of a military nature, I can give no information.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the pledge given to the Egyptian people at the beginning of the War on behalf of Great Britain has been kept, or has been violated?

Safe Conducts for Germans and Austrians

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he has been asked for a safe conduct for Captain Boy-Ed, of the German Embassy in the United States; and will he say how many safe conducts have, up to the present, been issued to Germans and Austrians to enable them to return from the United States to Europe?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The number of safe conducts given hitherto to German or Austro-Hungarian subjects is four.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether all the passports were of a naval or military character, or were they all for civilians?

I think they were all to civilians. One was to Dr. Dumba, the Austro-Hungarian Ambassador, and another to Herr Dernburg. If the hon. Member likes to put down a question, I will give all four names, and the particular circumstances under which the passports were given.

Serbian Refugees (Montenegro and Albania)

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs if he has any information regarding the condition of the Serbian refugees in Montenegro and Albania, and especially if he can say whether food supplies have yet reached them; and whether he is in a position to make a statement on the subject?

Information is as yet necessarily vague as the Serbian refugees have not penetrated far enough through the mountains for His Majesty's representatives to be able to report definitely on their numbers or conditions. Two representatives of the Serbian Relief Committee are, however, I believe, now in Montenegro, and their report will, I hope, throw further light on the situation. At present, our latest information is that there are 10,000 refugees on the road from Ipek to Podgoritza.

I am not in a position to make any statement on the subject except that His Majesty's Government are doing all they can to help the Serbian people.

Is there any organisation on a grand scale for sending supplies of food to these troops who are really starving?

Yes, Sir. There is an organisation which is collecting supplies of food and sending them to the troops as soon as possible.

Declarations of Paris and London

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that it has been stated by His Majesty's Government that the Order in Council of the 11th March, 1915, does not affect the validity of the Declaration of Paris, 1856, the Declaration of London, 1908, fourteen Conventions determined upon at the Second Peace Conference held at The Hague in 1907, and all juridical niceties relative to contraband and the right of capture at sea: whether he is aware that, subsequent to this statement, His Majesty's Government declared that the Declaration of London had no international validity; and whether he will explain to the House which of the Declarations, etc., mentioned are valid and which invalid?

The validity or invalidity of the instruments referred to depends upon the provisions of the instruments. themselves, to which I must refer the Noble Lord for the information which he requires Their validity is what it has always been. The Declaration of London never had any validity as a convention, because Article 67 provided for ratification, and the Declaration was never ratified.

Exports to and from Denmark

asked whether the commodities which may be exported to Denmark under the agreement with the Merchants' Guild, include any commodity which is produced in Denmark; and, if so, whether it is part of the agreement that the export of that class of commodity from Denmark to Germany shall be entirely prohibited, or merely that the prohibition of export shall only apply to the re-export of commodities imported under the agreement?

I can add nothing at present to previous statements. We cannot make the arrangement public.

Enemy Aliens (Cargo at Valparaiso)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if it was by the instructions of the Foreign Office that the Consul-General at Valparaiso issued last summer instructions to British ships that no cargo was to be received which is shipped by or belongs to Germans, Austrians, and Turks, and no cargo to be shipped in lighters belonging to Germans, Austrians, and Turks; and if he can state why British shipmasters were informed at a later date that they need not conform to the instructions, but were entitled to accept lighters, even if German, and cargo, even if belonging to our enemies?

No instructions in the sense stated were issued to British ships, but His Majesty Consul-General at Valparaiso expressed to the agent of the Pacific Steam Navigation Company at that port the opinion that it was undesirable for British ships to carry goods owned by Germans in Chile or to load goods from German lighters. I agreed with the personal opinions expressed by the Consul-General, and in communications which took place with the Pacific Steam Navigation Company on the subject the company were so informed, but pending further legislation it is not of course illegal for British shipping companies to carry goods or to make use of lighters owned by enemy subjects resident in South America.

I understand that the Pacific Steam Navigation Company's agent at first acted in accordance with the view expressed by the Consul-General, and I am unable to say why the company's attitude subsequently changed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into this matter, in which it seems that the policy of the Foreign Office has been overridden by the action taken by this company in committing precisely what is said in the right hon. Gentleman's reply, and which it is desirable, from the Foreign Office point of view, should be prevented?

I have explained in my answer that pending further legislation it is not illegal for British companies to carry goods or use lighters owned by enemy subjects resident in South America.

Army Ordnance Department (Service Officers)

asked whether the War Office keeps a list of names of officers in the Army Ordnance Department who have been to the front and a list of those who have not; and whether those that have been longest on Home service and have not been out will be sent out prior to those who have already been out, going out again, so that all may take their turn on active service?

Yes, Sir, a record is kept of all officers of the Army Ordnance Department who have and who have not been to the front. As regards the latter part of the question, I can only say that officers of the Department are detailed for duty with the Expeditionary Forces as the exigencies of the Service require.

Recruiting

Time-Expired Men

asked the number of time-expired men who have left the Colours since the outbreak of war; what inducements are offered to those men to re-enlist; and how many have done so?

I am afraid I cannot state the number of time-expired men who have left the Colours since the outbreak of war. I am sending to my hon. Friend a paper which states the concessions which are being offered in regard to gratuity, Service pay, pension, etc., as inducements to men to continue in the Service or re-enlist for the duration of the War.

Arran Isles (County Galway)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if the rules against recruiting with threats of compulsion and against recruiting from essential industries are uniform throughout the United Kingdom; will he explain why the young fishermen, Hugh Gill and Joseph Folan, were recruited under threat of compulsion off the Arran Isles, county Galway, on the 26th November last; and whether they will be immediately restored to the industry in which they had been engaged?

Recruiting is conducted on the voluntary principle uniformly throughout the United Kingdom. The recruiting from essential industries in Ireland has not so far in the interests of those industries had to be restricted by special rules. I find upon inquiry that Hugh Gill and Thomas Folan enlisted in the Army voluntarily, having of their own accord put out in a boat from the Arran Islands to join the steamer which had the recruiting party aboard.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept his information in these cases from the military authorities?

I obtain my information from the head office. I dare say that they obtain their information from the military in Ireland.

Egyptians (Enlistment)

asked the Under-Secretary for War, in view of the fact that the General Officer Commanding the British Forces in Egypt gave a pledge to the Egyptian people that Great Britain took upon herself the whole burden of the present War without calling upon them for aid, will he say why Egyptians resident temporarily in England are urged by recruiting officers to enlist and threatened with compulsion; and whether instructions will be given for the discontinuance of this conduct?

No such instructions are necessary, as recruiting officers are already in possession of instructions which preclude the enlistment of Egyptians in the British Army.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how it is that they have been threatened by the recruiting officers unless they join?

If the hon. Gentleman will give me particulars of any definite case I will have inquiries made.

Recruiting officers ought to take no one who is not of European descent for enlistment in the British Army.

Clergy (Enlistment)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War how many clergymen and ministers of all denominations have enlisted; what is the number of such persons who received Lord Derby's appeal to enlist; if such persons have been canvassed; if he is aware that there are thousands of clergymen of military age, mostly unmarried; and if, instead of enlisting medical students, he will withdraw the support of the War Office from clergymen who do not enlist?

I am unable to give the information asked for in the first part of the question. On the other parts of the question I have nothing to add to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend on the 30th November.

Is it not particularly appropriate that they should enlist, seeing that there is nothing doing in Christianity at the present time?

Married Recruits (Home Maintenance)

asked the Prime Minister, concerning the cumber of married men who have enlisted under the group system whose wives will be left to meet all expenses for the maintenance of themselves and their families, including fixed expenses for rent, rates, and insurance, amounting, in many instances, to 15s. per week, and whose employers have refused to make any allowance to keep their homes together during their absence, whether he proposes to take any measures to ensure that the homes of men in these circumstances will be kept together, if they are called up, until they return?

This question is being carefully considered, but as I stated in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea on November 4th, its solution is attended by many difficulties, and the Government are not yet in a position to make any announcement.

Lord Derby's Scheme

asked the Prime Minister whether, under the present recruiting system, each county is being worked separately from other counties; and whether, in a county in which the eligible single men generally have offered themselves for service, the married men in that county are exempt from service though single men in other counties have failed to respond sufficiently; in other words, must single men generally throughout the country offer for service or be bound to serve before married men are called up?

With regard to the first question, the unit is the Parliamentary constituency. As to the second question, I have already made a statement, to which I can add nothing.

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes, when the results of the Derby recruiting campaign are known, to inform the House of the actual number of enlistments in the various groups, of the number of authorised exemptions, and the number of men of military age who are not accounted for in either of the two preceding classes; how and when the Cabinet will reach a decision as to the measure of the response and the policy to be followed; whether the House of Commons will be given all the information in the possession of the Government; and whether a full opportunity will be afforded it of expressing its opinion on all the circumstances of the case as then developed?

I cannot at present answer the various points raised by my hon. Friend, but all of them will be taken into consideration.

When will a discussion take place in the House on Lord Derby's scheme?

May I ask whether in any figures which are published we shall have figures given of the men enlisted in the different districts since the commencement of the War?

Will the right hon. Gentleman issue a memorandum to the House before the Debate, so that Members may have a full opportunity of considering it in all its bearings?

May I ask whether a day will be given between now and the Christmas adjournment?

64.

asked the Prime Minister if he will grant a day for the discussion of the Resolution standing in the names of the hon. Member for the Lancaster Division and other Members?

["That, in view of the necessity for maintaining the financial strength of the country for the successful prosecution of the War, this House is of opinion that the new Scheme of Recruiting affords inadequate security for the retention of a sufficiency of labour for the carrying on of the vital trades of the country and the maintenance of exports."]

There will be an opportunity of discussion on Army Supplementary Vote A, which we shall present in a few days.

Mobile Forts

asked whether the Comptroller of Munitions Inventions has made any report to the War Office on the use of mobile forts propelled by caterpillar tractors for use in traversing ground honeycombed by trenches; and, if so, has he reported favourably on their utility?

Territorial Force

Acceleration of Promotion

asked whether, having regard to the promotions above the rank of captain in the Territorial Force consequent upon the formation of second and third-line units and provisional battalions, the fact that a number of field officers of the New Armies have very little more than one year's service, and the recent promotion of line captains of fifteen years' service to field rank, captains of the Special Reserve having twenty years' service may be promoted to the rank of major?

Special acceleration of promotion is only justified on public and military grounds, and I am informed that there are no military grounds for quickening promotion of captains to majors in the Special Reserve. The object of quickening promotion of captains to majors in the Infantry was to provide a stiffening of field officers for the New Armies.

Wounded Sergeants (Pensions)

asked whether sergeants who have received their promotion at the front, and are subsequently wounded and sent home to recuperate, are not only drafted out of battalions other than their own, but lose their rank and have to start again as privates; whether a private, lately sergeant, if he is wounded again and permanently incapacitated only receives a private's pension, and if killed his widow only receives a private's, widow's allowance; and, if so, whether the Army Council will amend the Regulations in order that such men may retain their rank when promoted, except for misconduct?

I would refer my Noble Friend to the full answer I gave on this subject to the hon. Member for the Hough-ton-le-Spring Division, on the 29th September. If a sergeant is a substantive sergeant he does not revert on coming home. If his rank is acting rank he may have to revert to his substantive rank, but this I am informed is not a frequent occurrence. Where the rank is substantive widow's pension follows the rank.

Christmas Leave

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Christmas and New Year leave which is to be given generally to the troops in this country will extend to those units engaged on home defence; if not, will his Department take into consideration that there are in those home defence units at least 10 per cent. who are still eligible for service overseas, and that refusal of any leave in such circumstances, others being granted it, may have a deterrent effect in recruiting for foreign service?

On the question of leave at Christmas and the New Year, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for East Manchester on the 10th November. I note the point he makes in the latter part of the question.

asked what arrangements have been made for leave for soldiers at Christmas, especially those who have been serving many months at the front?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for East Manchester on the 10th November. Arrangements have recently been made for increased facilities for leave from France, but it will be recognised that it is impossible to grant general leave at any one particular time.

Public School Brigade

asked the Undersecretary for War whether his attention has been called to the number of men who have enlisted in the Public School Brigade who have applied for commissions; and, seeing there is dissatisfaction at the manner in which the applications are being dealt with, will he say what action he proposes to take?

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to what I said in reply to the hon. Member for Burnley an the 17th November, and I would add to what I then said that a nominal roll of those who have not yet got commissions has been sent to the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, by whom the applications will no doubt be dealt with on their merits.

Officers' Training Corps

asked whether for the future no commissions will be granted in the Army except after service in the ranks; if so, whether service in the Officers' Training Corps counts as service in the ranks; what is the position of members of the Officers' Training Corps of eighteen years old and upwards under Lord Derby's scheme; and what course they should take under this scheme with regard to attestation?

Yes, Sir. Generally speaking, it is not the practice now to give first commissions to candidates who have not served in the ranks. Previous service in the Officers' Training Corps, with the military experience it brings, of course, puts the individual in a better position than those who have not such experience. Members of Officers' Training Corps of eighteen years old and upwards should, if not accepted for commissions, be attested under Lord Derby's scheme, as I have already stated

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether Officers' Training Corps in this country have completed their usefulness; whether they have drained dry the reservoirs which were to supply them with a particular class of recruits; and whether, in these circumstances, he will consider the desirability of transferring all such Officers' Training Corps to France and of selecting their members exclusively from soldiers who have already seen service at the front?

It is not considered that the contingents of the Officers' Training Corps have completed their usefulness, and there is no necessity to transfer any Officers' Training Corps to France, as arrangements exist there already for training young officers.

War Office (Alien Enemies)

asked how many persons of alien enemy birth, male or female, are now employed in the War Office?

I gave the hon. Gentleman yesterday the number of persons of foreign birth employed in the Censor's Department. Other than those no persons of alien enemy birth, male or female, are employed in the War Office.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether before appointing Mrs. Savile to a post in the War Office he had any communication with the police authorities in Yorkshire; and, if so, what was the nature of the information he received?

Yes, Sir, the War Office at the time in question was in possession of the local reports made on Mrs. Savile. These reports are, of course, confidential.

Did the right hon. Gentleman communicate with the police after the lady had applied for work at the War Office?

We made no communication to the local police, because the whole of their reports were in possession of the Department which has the matter in hand.

asked who introduced Mrs. Savile to the War Office; what investigations were made into her qualifications for the post; and whether such post was open at the time to public competition?

asked on whose recommendation and authority did Mrs. Savile obtain a post of employment in the War Office?

A form of application was sent to Mrs. Savile in the ordinary course. The qualifications put forward were investigated in the same way as those of other applicants. The post is of a purely temporary character, and was not and is not now open to public competition by way of examination.

I may add that I have received a letter from Mr. Savile offering Mrs. Savile's resignation in order to avoid any embarrassment to the Government or the War Office.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not see that Mrs. Savile's resignation has nothing whatever to do— I am making no complaint against her— with the action of the Government in making the appointment?

I beg to give notice that I will raise this point on the Adjournment.

Frostbite

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he has any recent information concerning frostbite, so-called, amongst our troops at the front; does it threaten to be as bad as it was last year; is it more or less common amongst our men than amongst French and Belgian soldiers; do French and Belgian soldiers wear puttees; are rubber thigh-boots provided in sufficient numbers for actual duty in the trenches; and, if so, are they worn with puttees or with long woollen stockings?

I understand that during the week ended 27th November there were approximately 770 cases of trench-foot reported from France. It is hoped that the measures adopted will cause a great reduction in the incident of this ailment. I cannot say whether frostbite is more or less common among our soldiers than amongst French or Belgian soldiers. Rubber thigh-boots have been provided in large quantities for the use of men actually on duty in the trenches, and still further quantities are being sent. As far as is known, puttees are being worn with them.

Recommendations for Commissions

asked if the granting of commissions in the Army rests entirely with the commanding officer and, with the view of removing any suspicion of favouritism, will the War Office consider the idea of placing this matter in the hands of a small committee on which there shall be at least one civilian?

Recommendations for commissions must emanate in the first instance from the commanding officer. Final selection to meet the vacancies available is made at the War Office, and I do not agree that there is any ground for suspicion of favouritism. The committee; suggested is not considered necessary.

Medical Students

asked the Undersecretary for War if he has seen the memorial from a number of university representatives and medical men pointing out that the fewness of the number of medical students is a very serious matter, and that it will be a national catastrophe if all the medical students are called up; has this expression of opinion made any impression on the War Office; and will they reconsider their attitude in regard to the enlistment of medical students and revert to the position they took up in June last?

I have seen various statements in the Press, but so far as I can find no memorial on this matter has been officially sent to the War Office. It is not proposed to alter the policy which has been announced in this matter.

Dentists (Army Appointments)

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether, in view of the importance both to officers and men at the front of having their teeth properly attended to, he can see his way to appoint a certain number of consulting surgeon dentists and so ensure the greater efficiency of the Army?

I assume that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the troops in France and in the Mediterranean, and not to the troops at home, and I may inform him that a considerable number of full-time dental officers have already been appointed over and above such as may have been appointed to go with the Canadian contingent and the Australian and New Zealand forces, and any voluntary hospitals. Any more that may be asked for will be sent, and they can be used either as consultants or as executive officers, as the authorities may decide.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of officers and men are now suffering from a complaint of the jaw which could have been obviated had there been a sufficient number of dentists on the spot?

No. I am really amazed to hear that statement from the hon. Gentleman, because we have had not only a sufficient but a surplus number of dental surgeons who are ready to go at any time that they are required.

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware of the increasing number of men invalided home from the front on account of teeth; that there are eight Red Cross hospitals in France without a dentist; and whether, in view of the necessity of maintaining the Army in a constant state of efficiency, he will consider the advisability of making arrangements for a larger number of dentists to accompany the troops?

There is no evidence of any increased number of soldiers being invalided for defective teeth in proportion to the numbers of men in the field. I am not aware whether eight Red Cross hospitals in France are without a dentist, but the hon. Member may accept my assurance that all demands for dental surgeons made by the authorities oversea have been met.

asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware that men invalided home from the front for teeth have often to remain in this country a much longer time than would be necessary owing to insufficient dental arrangements at the various hospitals; that at one of the temporary hospitals in the London district seventy-five men are still waiting to have their teeth attended to; and whether it is possible to employ a larger draft of dentists or, at any rate, to see that men are not kept waiting for dental operations to the detriment of their general health?

I have no knowledge in the sense of the first two parts of this question. Men are not kept in hospital for dental treatment, but the bulk of the work is done whilst the men are at their duties. In each command a number of full-time commissioned dental officers has been appointed, and these are being added to as required, and the general officers commanding are also empowered to employ as many civilian dentists as there is need for. I may add that the importance of proper dental treatment of officers and soldiers is fully realised.

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to challenge any statement which I have made in the question?

I would not go so far as to challenge any statement made by my hon. Friend. I can only say that his statements are not in accordance with the official information received by me.

Veterinary Surgeons

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he can now announce that arrangements have been made to grant the same scale of pay and the same incidence of promotion to veterinary surgeons of the Territorial Forces as are granted to veterinary surgeons of the New Army?

I regret I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend on the 2nd instant.

Is it the case that this matter has been hung up by the Treasury officials, and that the War Office are prepared to grant this concession to veterinary surgeons serving in the Territorial regiments?

I think I had better say nothing more at present. I hope to be able to announce a decision before very long.

Indian Civil Service

asked the Secretary of State for India whether at least one Indian representative will be included in the Committee which is to advise the Secretary of State in the selection of candidates for the Indian Civil Service?

As I said in the Debate on the Bill, I do not think that the Selection Committee will be required until the War is over, or that it would be in the interest of anybody to settle its composition until the circumstances with which it will have to deal are better known than they are at present.

India (Emigration)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether, following upon the Report of the Committee on Emigration, appointed in 1909, and the more recent Report of Messrs. M'Neill and Chimanlal, a further deputation to Fiji, of Messrs. Andrews and Pearson, has been ordered by the Government of India; and, if so, will he say why so many reports are necessary on this subject, in respect of which there has been unanimity of favourable opinion as to the existing system?

I understand that Mr. Andrews' visit to Fiji was a private one. I have no information as to Mr. Pearson.

Mesopotamia

Operations Near Ctesiphon

asked the Secretary of State for India if he will state what were the losses in detail of the British force in the recent actions at Ctesiphon and in the retirement to Kut-el-Amara, in respect of killed, wounded, and missing; whether reinforcements are on their way to or have reached Sir John Nixon; and when he proposes to publish in this country a full report of what happened?

The casualties in the fighting at and about Ctesiphon were, as already announced, 4,567. These include 643 killed, 3,330 wounded, leaving 594 not yet accounted for. I have not yet received details as to the distribution of the losses in the retreat, but the total, according to my present information, is under 300. Reinforcements were ordered to Mesopotamia before the advance on Ctesiphon was begun. Some of them have already arrived.

I cannot say when a full report will be received from the General Officer Commanding. In the communiqués that have been issued I have endeavoured to give as full an account of the recent operations as military exigencies allow, and I can add nothing further on this subject. I should like, however, to take this opportunity of expressing my admiration for the fine military qualities shown by the troops, both British and Indian, in the heavy fighting in which they were engaged, and in the withdrawal before superior forces.

The House will be glad to know that Sir J. Nixon reports that the general condition of the wounded is very satisfactory, and that the medical arrangements worked well under circumstances of considerable difficulty.

Indian Army (Proficiency Pay)

asked the Secretary of State for India on what condition proficiency pay is granted to soldiers in the Indian Army; whether it is given solely on account of putting in two fifteen-day periods in camp, and is refused to noncommissioned officers who have proved their efficiency but have not had the other qualification; and will he see that real efficiency is the recognised qualification?

It is presumed that the hon. Member is referring to soldiers of the Territorial Force battalions now serving in India. Such soldiers are treated in this matter in the same way as all other soldiers in the Territorial Force. The qualification for proficiency pay comprises a certain length of service, and a certain degree of military proficiency combined with physical fitness. The military efficiency is imputed to non-commissioned officers as a matter of course, but they must have the service qualification.

Questions

London (Cost of Local Government)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the estimate of the cost of local government in London at 52s. 6d. per head compared with 31s. 6d. in Birmingham for the same service; whether he is aware that there are in London twenty-nine town clerks, twenty-nine borough surveyors, twenty-nine borough accountants, and a due setting of subordinates in every case; that the cost of the collection of street refuse is 42s. a ton in Westminster, as compared with 11s. 8d. in St. Pancras; and that the livery companies in the City of London hold property to the value of over £17,000,000; and whether, in view of the necessity for economies and of utilising to the full the nation's resources, he will have inquiries made into the expenditure of municipal administration in London and of the wealth and administration of the livery companies?

The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. No comparison can properly be made between the expenditure in London and other places. London is a county containing several boroughs, and its size, population, and other circumstances place it in a unique position. I hardly think that inquiries such as are suggested would be of much value at the present time. As the hon. Member knows, my Department are taking what steps are practicable for securing a reduction in the expenditure of local authorities.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a great deal of municipal extravagance going on all over the country, and that classic instances are the City Corporation and the borough councils of London?

I do not know that I would commit myself to the description of the hon. Gentleman that there is a great deal of municipal extravagance. There is a great deal of municipal expenditure which is absolutely unavoidable. Some of it has been in the past, and payment has to be made now. Therefore, it is difficult to judge of the actual rates of expenditure until we know all the circumstances of each case. Still, I do know that reductions have been and are being made, and so far as my experience of the local authorities goes, I have been met most generously, and they are most anxious, to accept any suggestions that are made to secure, where possible, strict economy.

Does the right hon. Gentleman admit the accuracy of the figures in the question?

Is not any comparison with London misleading, having regard to the enormous day population?

For that and a good many other reasons which my hon. Friend knows very well, no comparison can be made between the expenditure of London and other large towns.

Is it not a fair comparison to take the cost per head in municipal boroughs like Birmingham, Liverpool, and Manchester and the cost per head in the Metropolis?

No, Sir. There are a great many reasons which render that misleading, amongst them that London is the capital of the country and the seat of Parliament; which means that an immense expenditure is entailed upon London which is not for the benefit of its population, but is an expenditure for the country as a whole.

British Trade

asked the Prime Minister if he will state which are the Departments that are inquiring into the commercial conditions that it may be imperative to deal with at the conclusion of the War; whether these Departments are taking evidence from chambers of commerce and from representatives of different commercial interests; if he will consider whether a Committee selected from business men of both Houses would be a more suitable body to undertake this work; and whether their recommendations would carry greater weight than suggestions made by officials of the different Departments?

asked whether the Government have information that for some time past preparations have been made in Germany for the purpose of pushing German trade after the War; what steps are being taken by His Majesty's Government to counteract any resulting injury to the trade of the British Empire; whether any Committee or Commission to consider this question is in existence, and, if so, when did such Committee begin their sittings; who are the members of the Committee and who is the chairman; and have all Government Departments been instructed to refer to this Committee all questions relating to trade after the War?

Commercial problems which are likely to arise on the conclusion of the War have been under the consideration of the Board of Trade and the Foreign Office. These Departments are assisted by business men who are investigating for the Government some of the numerous questions on which full information is desirable. It is not necessary or advisable to give a list of names at present.

Are these Committees taking evidence from certain interests in commercial centres?

Lord Haldane

asked the Prime Minister (1) what was the objective of Lord Haldane's constant attendance at the War Office during the month of November; (2) if Lord Haldane, on the occasion of his private visit to Sir John French in October, visited Switzerland; if so, was this visit made with the knowledge of the Government; and what was the object of his mission; and (3) if Lord Haldane was in Calais on Saturday last; did he attend the meeting of the Allies' war council; and, if so, in what capacity?

It is absolutely untrue that Lord Haldane was in constant attendance at the War Office in November, or that he was present at Calais. Whether he went to Switzerland or not I do not know, and do not intend to inquire.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if any payments have been made by the Treasury direct, or indirectly through any other Department, to Lord Haldane by way of salary, travelling or other expenses, other than his pension of £5,000 a year as ex-Lord Chancellor?

German Propaganda

asked the Prime Minister if, in view of evidence of the systematic reproduction and circulation by Germany in other countries of reprints in seven languages of matter calculated to injure British interests, he will state if the Government have taken any steps to counteract such propaganda by circulating reprints in the same countries and in the same languages of matter calculated to promote British interests; if so, when such counteracting steps were taken in those countries; and, if not, whether the Government will take any steps in those and other countries to counteract the German propaganda?

The Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who was to answer this, has been obliged to leave the House, and he has asked me to say that he would refer the hon. Member to the reply returned on the 30th ultimo to the hon. Member for London University.

asked the Prime Minister if, in view of recent disclosures as to the uses made by Germany of matter published in this country calculated to affect British interests prejudicially, he will state what is the Government's policy in regard to any Member of this House who has written for publication articles which could have no effect but to encourage the enemy, and which have in fact been reproduced and translated by Germany and circulated in various countries in order to affect British interests prejudicially?

I do not know to what the hon. Member is referring, but it is obvious that the duty of discretion in such matters is one which attaches equally to all subjects of the Crown.

Rents, Mortgages, and Rates (Scotland)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the different conditions which exist in Scotland with reference to rents, mortgages, and rates, both in munitions areas and outside of them; and, if so, whether he will consider the desirability of introducing a separate Bill dealing with Scotland alone on the subject of increases of rent and interest on mortgages in that country?

The conditions referred to by my hon. Friend were carefully considered before the introduction of the present Bill, and as the same general principles apply in both countries it was thought advisable to introduce one Bill, with the variations rendered necessary by the considerations referred to by my hon. Friend.

Allies' War Council (British Representatives)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the names of the representatives of France, Russia, and Italy who attended the War Council of the Allies in Paris on Monday last have been published, he will say who represented Great Britain at that Council?

The representatives of Great Britain were Field-Marshal Sir John French, General Sir W. R. Robertson, and Lieut.-General Sir A. J. Murray.

Volunteer Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether he can say when the Volunteer Bill, which has come from the House of Lords, will be printed and circulated?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this House is overwhelmingly in favour of this measure and that the country generally desires it, and that under present circumstances private Members cannot make their opinions known or the opinions of this House unless the Government star the Bill?

No, Sir, I know there is a great deal of opinion in favour, and I should be very glad if I thought it was a non-contentious Bill, but at present I am not satisfied that that is the case.

Peace Proposals

asked the Prime Minister if he will give an undertaking that no proposals made through neutrals or by any belligerent for negotiations based upon the evacuation of conquered territory shall be rejected by the Government without the knowledge of Parliament?

As the hon. Member is aware, the Governments of France, Russia, Japan, Italy, and Great Britain have mutually agreed not to conclude peace separately during the present War. If proposals of a serious character for a general peace are put forward either directly or through a neutral Power by the enemy Governments, they will be first discussed by the Allied Governments; and, till this contingency arises, I cannot give any other pledge. Should proposals for peace be put forward, it would be the desire of His Majesty's Government to take Parliament into its confidence at the earliest possible moment.

Compulsory Service

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that there is a concerted plot being carried out, apparently with the knowledge and approval of the military authorities, to prevent the public discussion of the question of Conscription; that within the last week meetings have been broken up by soldiers in uniform in many parts of the country; that at Nelson, in Lancashire, a number of members of the Home Defence Corps in uniform entered a hall in which a meeting against Conscription was being held, and that the leader of these men marched up to the platform and ordered the meeting to be brought to a stop; that at Halifax the band of the local Territorials paraded in front of the hall where a similar meeting was being held, and then members of the Territorial Force entered the hall and broke up the meeting; that at Bradford soldiers also prevented a meeting to discuss Conscription from being held; that a meeting of women to express opposition to Conscription was prevented from being held in London by the threat of organised disturbance; that the civic authorities of Glasgow have refused to allow meetings against Conscription to be held in the public halls; and, in view of these interferences with the right of public discussion of a most vital question on which, as the Prime Minister has stated, it is of great importance that the Government should know the views of the country, he will take steps to stop this action by men in the King's uniform, and take all other steps which may be necessary to secure the maintenance of the right of freedom of discussion of this question of Conscription?

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any official information showing that the organised efforts of soldiers to forcibly prevent Members of Parliament from addressing their fellow countrymen in public meeting has hindered recruiting; and, if so, whether such conduct will be dealt with under the Defence of the Realm Acts and the offenders tried by court-martial?

Inquiries are being made into the allegations contained in these questions, and I am not yet in a position to make a statement. With regard to the statement about Glasgow in Question 60, I would point out that the municipal authorities of that city have absolute control over the use of their buildings.

War Charities

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the estimate that £20,000,000 has been collected for war charities since the outbreak of war; whether he is aware of the general view that, whilst much of this money is well administered by organisations that are above reproach, considerable sums are wasted by overlapping and some part of the moneys collected misappropriated; whether he is aware of the sentence of three months' imprisonment just passed at the Portsmouth Police Court on a man who, under cover of a bogus organisation entitled the Patriots' League, procured charitable contributions by fraudulent pretences; and whether he will take steps to eliminate waste and fraud from war charities by insisting upon the preliminary authorisation of a responsible department?

Mr. C. Masterman's Appointment

asked the Prime Minister if Mr. Charles Masterman is now in the employment of the State and, if so, at what salary; whether he is the first occupant of a post newly created; and if he is subject to the rules of the Civil Service prohibiting interference in political affairs?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the rate of remuneration of Mr. Charles Masterman; and whether he received his present appointment after an examination or was the post thrown open to competition?

As I stated last week, Mr. Masterman is engaged on very valuable work of a highly confidential kind for the Government in connection with the War at their request. This work is temporary, it involves the creation of no new post with a paid salary, and it will cease at the end of the War; and the last part of Question 74 does not arise.

Mr. Masterman is not subject to the rules of the Civil Service, but I understand that he has not done and is not doing anything that can be described as interference in political affairs. He receives remuneration for what he does, which I am satisfied on inquiry is reasonable in amount, but having regard to the duties which he is discharging it would be contrary to longstanding practice to give further particulars in public.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is a desirable thing that a gentleman who has, been described as occupying a very confidential position should write articles in the daily Press setting forth what are to be the conditions of peace?

Is my right hon. Friend not aware that a trained journalist would gladly have performed the functions performed by Mr. Masterman without any pay?

It appeared to us that Mr. Masterman has very special qualifications.

May I ask whether Mr. Masterman is paid a salary out of funds voted by Parliament, and if the House of Commons has not the right to know what that salary is?

No one knows better than my hon. Friend that there are funds out of money voted by Parliament which are placed at the disposal of the Government and with regard to which they take the assurance of the Minister that they have been properly expended.

On a point of Order. Is it not the rule of this House that no answer can be refused to a question unless the Minister can plead the public interest, which has not been pleaded in this case?

Subveyor of Taxes (Blackpool)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a clerk in the surveyor of taxes office at Blackpool, having passed the qualifying examination for admission to the establishment, was refused a certificate by the Civil Service Commissioners on the ground that he failed to satisfy the medical test; and whether this decision can now be reconsidered or investigated in view of the fact that he has since joined the Army and has undergone three medical examinations successfully?

The medical examination of candidates for permanent appointments in the Civil Service is very carefully conducted and I understand that the Civil Service Commissioners do not feel able to alter the decision arrived at on the ground that a rejected candidate is subsequently accepted for military service. I am not prepared to interfere with the discretion of the Commissioners in such matters.

United States Loan (Sir Ernest Cassel)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Sir Ernest Cassel represented the Treasury directly or indirectly, or acted in any capacity on behalf of the Government, in the recent negotiations for a loan in the United States?

Imports from Dominions

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the United Kingdom is paying cash for imports from the Dominions; and, if so, whether financial arrangements can be made to prevent the drain of gold to other parts of the British Empire as well as to neutral and Allied counties by some general mobilisation of our Imperial finances?

Imports from the Dominions are being paid for in the usual way. The matter referred to in the last part of the question has not escaped attention.

Finance (No. 3) Bill

Excess Profits Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered the effect of the Excess Profits Tax in causing a further rise in shipping freights with a view to covering the tax; and will he consider the advisability of taking steps, by legislation or otherwise, to establish maximum rates of freight for the protection of the export trade of the country?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The whole question of shipping freights is being carefully watched, but I doubt whether the Excess Profits Tax has had much to do with the present rise, which is mainly accounted for by the scarcity of tonnage; and I do not think that legislation fixing maximum freights would have the effect desired.

Taxation (Direct and Indirect)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what are the exact proportions of taxation contributed at the present moment by direct taxation and indirect taxation?

On the basis of estimated revenue shown in House of Commons Paper 344 presented to the House on the 21st September last the proportion was as follows:—

War Loans Savings (Working Classes)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give his estimate of the total additional sum received in war wages as compared with the average wages earned by manual workers before the War which, after allowing for the increased cost of food, fuel, and house rent, can be considered reasonably to represent the amount which might have been saved and invested in War Loan by the working classes instead of in his opinion having been spent lavishly?

No precise figure can be given, but on the basis of the best statistics available it may be estimated that 4,500,000 workpeople have obtained since the war a rise, on average, of about 3s. 6d. per week on their rates of wages, as distinct from their total earnings. Four and a half millions are, however, only about a third of the total working population, and although it may fairly be assumed that part of the other two-thirds have had some advance in their rates of wages, it is not likely that such increases have been so great as in the well organised trades and in those more or less closely connected with the supply of war requirements. The increase in the cost of living since the outbreak of war may be estimated at about 30 per cent. This percentage increase in cost of living has been computed on the assumption that the same quantity, and as nearly as possible the same quality, of each commodity are being consumed now as before the War. I can only infer that considerable savings might have been made from the prosperous condition of many trades supplying commodities which at the present time must be regarded as luxuries.

The right hon. Gentleman is not satisfied with the savings of five millions?

No. I think a good deal more might have been saved, but I am not at all sure that the five millions represents the whole of the savings.

May I ask whether the total advance of 3s. 6d. only amounts to something like £50,000,000 per annum, while the extra cost of bread, flour, meat, and other articles amounts to over a £100,000,000?

I think my hon. Friend must not assume that the 3s. 6d. rise in the rates of wages represents the total amount of increase in the earnings. In addition to the rates of wages my hon. Friend must take into account the additional amount earned in overtime and extra work.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the total advance of 3s. 6d. for the 4,500,000 persons amounts, roughly, to £50,000,000?

I believe my hon. Friend has worked out the sum accurately. I only caution him that that does not represent the total of the additional earnings.

House of Commons (Prices of Alcoholic Beverages)

asked the right hon. Member for West Essex, as representing the Kitchen Committee, in what proportion the prices of alcoholic beverages have been raised from what the charges were before the commencement of the War?

Such alcoholic liquors as stout, ales and lager as are affected by the increased (war) taxation, and "imported wines" purchased since the commencement of the War, have been raised in selling price to meet the increased cost of such items. I believe everybody has paid these increased prices except perhaps one hon. Member who dines on a glass of water and a banana.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what has been the increased price of champagne per bottle?

Munitions

Picric Acid Poisoning (Workmen's Compensation)

asked the Home Secretary whether picric acid poisoning, or any disease of which it may be a sequel, is scheduled under the provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Act; and, if not, whether, in view of the increasing liability of working people in munition factories to such disease, he will recommend that it be scheduled?

The only diseases normally attributable to processes in the manufacture of, or involving the use of, picric acid are eczematous ulceration of the skin and poisoning by nitrous fumes. Both of them are scheduled under the Workmen's Compensation Act.

Increased Costs of Munitions (Causes)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the fact that on the day he informed the conference of trade unionists that the rise in wages had increased the cost of production a rise in the price of coal and of steel was reported; and will he state in what degree the increased cost of munitions is to be attributed to increased wages and to the rise in the price of raw materials?

My attention has not been called to the matter referred to in the first part of the question. It is not practicable to say with any accuracy to what extent the rise in cost of munitions is due to increased cost of labour or materials or to other causes. I may say, however, that in many important directions, in spite of increases in wages and in cost of raw material, substantial reductions in prices paid by the Ministry of Munitions are now being obtained as initial difficulties in manufacture have been overcome.

Will the hon. Member point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that his statement that the rise in the cost of munitions was due to the rise in wages is now refuted?

Questions

Licensing Restrictions

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that under the new restrictions hardship is placed upon moderate drinkers; whether a private wine merchant cannot sell less than a quart of brandy or other liquor at once; whether he is aware that 99 per cent. of moderate drinkers do not require a quart of spirit; and, seeing that this regulation assists the heavy drinker to drink more as he buys in bottles and takes them home, whether he can see his way to alter the regulations?

The limitation referred to by the Noble Lord has formed part of the legislation in force with regard to wine and spirit merchants' licences for many years. The present is hardly a time when a relaxation of the rule should be contemplated. My right hon. Friend agrees that moderate drinkers may not require spirits by the quart, but thinks that they will be able to satisfy their wants during the five and a half hours a day allowed by the Order.

South African Engineers

asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that engineers who have come from South Africa to this country to work on munition work have had their subsistence allowance stopped; and, if so, will he state the reason why it has been stopped?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I am not aware that any subsistence allowance to which the South African workmen in question were entitled has been withheld from them. If my hon. Friend will let me have particulars of the cases he has in mind I will have inquiry made.

Leadhills Mining Company, Lanarkshire

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that a strike has been in progress at Leadhills, Lanarkshire, for many weeks past; that the Leadhills Mining Company supply lead to firms engaged in munition work; and that they refuse to meet the workmen's representatives with a view to settling the dispute; and if he is prepared to take action in the matter?

My right hon. Friend is aware that a dispute has taken place at the works referred to by my hon. Friend, and he understands that the matter has engaged the attention of the Board of Trade. The work upon which the employés were engaged is not, however, munitions work within the meaning of the Munitions of War Act, and could only be brought within the provisions of Part I. of that Act by a special Proclamation. My right hon. Friend does not consider that the circumstances would justify him in' recommending His Majesty to make such a Proclamation.

In view of the huge profits per annum that this firm makes, will the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of taking the establishment over as a controlled firm for the benefit of the State?

It is not a question of how much profit a firm makes, but what work they do.

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Minister of Munitions if the activities of the Central Control Board are to be extended to Ireland; and, if not, whether he will give the reasons for exemption?

My right hon. Friend explained in the Debate on the Third Reading of the Defence of the Realm Amendment (No. 3) Act that it was not at that time proposed to extend the operation of the Act to Ireland. It has not up to the present been found necessary to schedule any part of Ireland under the Act.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that a member of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), the hon. Member for Blackburn, has expressed his opinion at Sheffield on the 15th ultimo that public-houses will never get back to the old hours of closing; and whether, seeing that the public expression of such views is not compatible with the impartial exercise of quasi-judicial functions, he will remove the hon. Member for Blackburn from the Board?

My right hon. Friend is informed by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn that the alleged quotation from his speech does not fully represent what he said. He was quoting some facts about the beneficial effects of the operation of the Board's Orders, and said that in his opinion these were so much appreciated by the public that it was unlikely they would desire to go back to the old conditions after the War, and he stated that in this view he was supported by a leading person in the liquor trade who, a few days before, had expressed himself to the same effect.

My right hon. Friend has no intention of depriving the Board of my hon. Friend's services.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, before putting any rural areas under the restrictions imposed by the Liquor Control Board, he will consider the policy of making the No-Treating Order general and the hardships imposed upon the rural population by a general restriction of the hours that the public-houses are allowed to be open; and whether there will be any opportunity of debate on this question before a decision is arrived at?

The hon. Member appears to assume that the No-treating Order by itself would achieve all the results which the other restrictions imposed are intended to effect, but my right hon. Friend is not prepared to accept this assumption. I may add that it is not the policy of the Board to restrict the hours during which public-houses may be open, but only those within which they may sell intoxicating liquor.

It is open to the hon. Member to raise the matter on the Motion for the Adjournment, but my right hon. Friend cannot undertake to ask the Leader of the House to give special facilities for a discussion.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the Liquor Control Board have refused on several occasions to give a hearing to the representatives of the licensed trade, notwithstanding that the interests of the trade and their reputations are being assailed; whether the Control Board have authorised drastic restrictions which have not been justified by the evidence submitted to their committees of inquiry; and whether he will consent to the publication of all the evidence brought before his committee in those areas where further restrictions have been imposed or are contemplated?

The answer to each of the three questions put is in the negative. I may, however, take this opportunity of saying that the Central Control Board make it a general rule to hold inquiries before scheduling any area. At these inquiries opportunity is given for leading sections of local opinion to state their views. The Board have no intention of making Orders affecting any new areas without consulting interested parties in the localities, such as the naval and military authorities, the police, local government and licensing authorities, leading employers, trade-union organisations, and the licensed trade.

Munitions Tribunals

asked the Minister of Munitions (1) whether, in view of the numbers of women now working in munitions workshops, it is intended to appoint women as members of, or assessors to sit with, munitions tribunals; and (2) whether he will state how many cases have come before munitions tribunals up to the end of November in which women workers in munitions establishments have been concerned; and, if figures are available, how many women have been fined and what is the total amount of such fines?

Provision will be made for a woman assessor on munitions tribunals when dealing with women's cases in the Amending Bill which will be introduced in the course of a few days. I may say, however, that up to the present the great majority of cases before munitions tribunals have only concerned men. I find that out of 3,868 cases up to 28th November only ninety-four concerned women, including ninety applications for leaving certificates. Only one woman has been fined, the amount being 10s.

Scrap (Export and Import)

98.

, asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been directed to the fact that heavy steel scrap is being exported to France and that quantities of light scrap, such as borings and turnings, are being exported from France; whether the waste of labour in handling and in railway and sea transport has been considered; whether the discontinuance of transport of such material would permit of greater imports of iron ore; whether he is aware that a number of blast furnaces in this country are idle for the want of the latter commodity; and, if so, whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?

I am informed that the amounts both of heavy steel scrap exported to France and of light scrap imported from France are not sufficient to exercise any appreciable effect upon the problem of transport. Steps to control the export of heavy scrap have, however, already been taken. I only know of one furnace which is idle for want of iron ore, but the provision of adequate transport facilities, both by sea and rail, for iron ore has received, and continues to receive, the constant attention of the Ministry.

Gas Lamp Chimneys (Austrian Manufacture)

asked the Home Secretary whether the Government are aware that gas lamp chimneys manufactured in Austria are being imported into this country by the firm of Messrs. Falk, Stadelman, and Company, of 87, Farringdon Street, London, and sold in this country as American, and may have come from the United States of America, though not of American manufacture but clearly of Austrian manufacture, and contained in packing cases on which the words Austrian manufacture are written, although an attempt is made to erase that description: and will be say what action he proposes to take?

A number of packages of glass chimneys consigned to this company from the United States of America have been detained by the Customs, and have been made the subject of inquiry by the Home Office, and two consignments are still under detention. The particular case to which the hon. and learned Member calls attention is being investigated, and I will acquaint him with the result.

Aeroplane Manufacture (Poisonous Varnish Fumes)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the death of a man, Charles Selwood, at Teddington, through inhaling the conditions under which it is used in the waterproofing of aeroplane wings; is this the same varnish which has previously caused the deaths of some of the workers using it; and is he having an inquiry into the conditions under which it is used in the works where this accident occurred?

I have received reports on this case. I regret to say that the death was due to the same cause as in the previous cases, that is, to the fumes of tetrachlorethane. The factory has been visited from time to time, and the system of ventilation was satisfactorily planned, but the firm had been unable to obtain, in the present emergency, fully adequate fans, with the result that the air was not being charged with sufficient frequency. Improvements are being made to increase the volume of air passing through the room, and a new and improved building is being constructed to which the work will be transferred.

Seeing the number of deaths which have already occurred, will the Home Office have a strict code of rules drawn up under which this work must be carried on? And will the ventilation now being put in be the same as was put in by Vickers at Crayford, of which the Home Secretary had a special inspection?

The Home Office has a very strict code of rules in operation. The trouble is that employers are unable to get the necessary machinery for ventilating purposes, in addition to which buildings that were not suitable before have had to be transformed, and that has caused great difficulty. I can assure the House that the Home Office is exhausting itself in endeavouring to put an end to the difficulty.

Metropolitan Special Constables (Equipment)

asked the Home Secretary if he will consider the question of modifying the provision as to the number of duties which must have been done by special constables before they are entitled to overcoats and boots, as its effect is that those who have been doing duty for a short time only, but have every intention of carrying out their obligations during the winter, must wait until the cold weather is over before receiving the equipment, thus defeating the intention that the special constables should be warmly clothed and well shod during the coming winter?

If the hon. Member will refer to the statement I made on the 4th November when announcing that a grant would be given for equipment, he will find that the grant was made to compensate special constables for the wear-and-tear of coats and boots used in the performance of their duty. The conditions qualifying for the grant were fixed in consultation with representatives of the special constabulary, and it is not proposed now to modify them.

Government Departments (Study of Foreign Papers)

asked the Home Secretary whether he will consider the advisability of making available to the public the results of the study of foreign papers which is conducted in more than one of the Government Departments?

Enemy-Owned Companies (Trading Rights in United Kingdom)

asked the Attorney-General if it has been decided to introduce legislation to provide that during the War enemy-owned companies cannot acquire trading rights in this country by the mere fact of registration?

asked the Attorney-General whether, in view of the fact that in the "Poonah" case, in which the judgment delivered in the Prize Court on 3rd May, following the decision in the Court of Appeal in the Continental Tyre case, liberated goods which the Crown contended were lawful prize because they were the property of a company incorporated in this country, although the shares in that company were owned by enemy aliens, he will advise that this decision shall be taken on appeal before the Privy Council?

The considerations raised in these questions are mainly of commercial policy, and the Board of Trade is therefore principally responsible for their determination. In my own opinion, the decision in the Continental Tyre Company, whether technically correct or not, leaves the law in an unsatisfactory condition. The President of the Prize Court in the "Poonah" followed the decision in the Continental Tyre case partly, as he expressed it, out of respect to the Court of Appeal. The "Poonah" case is not as convenient a test case, having regard to Section 1 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1895, as the Continental case. It is therefore satisfactory to know that the necessary steps are being taken to carry the latter case to the House of Lords. Their lordships will be invited to expedite the various stages, and it will depend upon their decision whether, in the alternative, legislation—an alternative by no means free from difficulty—will require consideration.

Interned Enemies (Right to Sue in Civil Courts)

asked the Attorney-General if his attention has been called to the decision of the Master of the Rolls that an interned enemy has the right to sue in the Civil Courts of this country; and if the Government intend to introduce legislation on the subject?

It is not at present known whether the decision referred to in my hon. Friend's question is to be the subject of appeal. The points raised are part of a larger question with another aspect of which I have dealt in an earlier answer to my hon. Friend. The whole question—including the treatment of interned English prisoners in enemy countries—is receiving careful attention.

Persons of Alien Origin (Change of Name)

asked the Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to the case of C. V. 0. Behr, of London, who states in the "Times," of 4th December, that he is assuming the name of Baird; and whether he will advise legislation to protect names famous in British history from the degradation caused by persons of alien origin having the legal right to assume any name they choose?

It appears that Mr. Behr is a natural born British subject, whose family has been settled in England for forty-six years. It would therefore appear that his desire to exchange his name for another may fairly be treated as part of a larger question, namely, whether it is right that any British citizen should be allowed to select a name in exchange for his own. It would, I think, be invidious and perhaps a source of controversy, to attempt a schedule of names available for adoption which have not been famous in English history.

asked the Home Secretary if he will state what is the position of those aliens who adopted British names between the date of the commencement of the War and the 12th October, 1914; and will they be allowed to use the names they have assumed without the addition of the real names which they desire to conceal from the public?

The alien enemy who changed his name between the outbreak of war and the 12th October, 1914, was obliged, under penalty, to cease, as from that date, to use the new name.

Sugar Prices

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that the recent reduction in the price of cube sugar was publicly announced to take effect forthwith, he will agree to give the rebate on smaller quantities than ten cases in transit on 27th October?

I fear I can add nothing to the reply which I gave on this subject to my hon. Friend on the 22nd November.

Union of Democratic Control

Memorial Hall Meeting

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War a question, of which I have given him private notice: Whether he has now received from the hon. Member for Stirling Burghs, in addition to his statement in the House, full proof in writing with regard to the organised methods by which soldiers were used to break up the meeting at the Memorial Hall on the 29th November; whether he accepts the same; and whether he will issue some general warning in order to protect the military from being exploited by organisers of riot and disorder in future?

I have received the statement from my hon. Friend to which he refers. I have studied it, and while it undoubtedly contains strong statements in support of the view my hon. Friend takes, I cannot accept his claim that it is full proof of his contention. I must add that I have also, since I spoke in the House on the 4th instant, received unsolicited statements to the contrary. If there were any organised methods employed to break up this meeting, I need hardly assure my hon. Friend and the House that the organisers of disorder did not and would not receive any countenance from the War Office or any of the military authorities.

Has the right hon. Gentleman received information that the Colonial soldiers absolutely deny having made use of forged tickets, or of having any placed in their possession?

Has the right hon. Gentleman been yet informed that the origin of the story of the Teutonic accents was the fact that a woman in the hall, on being accused of being a German, and being interrogated by a Canadian soldier, replied in a broad Scottish accent?

I can only say in answer to that that the officer who made the report to me is himself a Scotsman; my hon. Friend would not think it likely that he would confuse the Scottish dialect with another!

Questions

Camberwell Borough Council (Surcharge)

I desire to ask the President of the Local Government Board a question, of which I have given him private notice: Whether his attention has been called to the threatened surcharge on the members of the Camberwell Borough Council in respect of payments to workmen and officials who are serving with His Majesty's Forces, and whether, having regard to the fact that on the strength of the promises made to them, workmen and officials have been encouraged to enlist, he will now instruct the auditors of the Board to refrain from threatening any surcharge in respect of financial assistance which is accorded by local authorities to any of their employés who join the Colours?

This question was only brought to my notice a short time before the House met. I understand an appeal has been, or is about to be, made against the surcharge, and I propose to give the matter my immediate attention.

Will the right hon. Gentleman also at the same time make an inquiry into the case of the Shoreditch Borough Council; they have had to break this particular contract with members of their staff who have joined the Army in consequence of the surcharge?

I do not know whether I can promise to look into every case myself. An appeal can be made: it lies with me. As soon as an appeal is made I will at once have the whole matter looked into.

Will the right hon. Gentleman not make a general order in connection with the matter? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]

No, Sir; I do not think I can be asked to do that, because it is conceivable that some may go far beyond the promises originally made or the obligations entered into. But hon. Members may be certain that in my investigations I shall be governed by a desire to see that all promises made are faithfully kept.

No-Treating Order (House of Commons)

I desire to ask the hon. Member for the Epping Division of Essex (Colonel Lockwood) a question, of which I have given him private notice: Whether he will approach the Prime Minister with a view to the House being afforded an opportunity to decide whether the practice of the House shall conform to the No-Treating Order now in force?

I understand my hon. Friend desires an appeal unto Cæsar. I presume the Prime Minister here represents the husband of the second of the two ladies I mentioned the other day, whose name was Caesar, and I would be glad to ask him if he can see his way to give the House an opportunty of pronouncing an opinion by vote on the question?

Is the right hon. Member aware that the No-Treating Order is practically in existence now in this. House?

I do not think that under the existing conditions of public business the House could be usefully occupied in discussing this matter, but, if it is generally desired to take a decision of the House without debate, I will consider whether it will be possible. [ Dissent and Assent. An HON. MEMBER: "Take it now!"]

Housing Accommodation (Ireland)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received a copy of a resolution, unanimously adopted recently by a meeting held in St. Patrick's Division, Dublin, requesting an immediate Grant to carry out housing proposals already sanctioned by the Local Government Board, Ireland; whether he is aware that, in the. interests of public health, increased accommodation is urgently required and that dissatisfaction exists owing to the Treasury's delay in providing the promised funds; and whether he can now state what the Government proposes to do to meet this emergency?

I have received the resolution referred to, but the Local Government Board have not as yet made any recommendation to the Treasury.

I believe recommendations will be made shortly on, at any rate, part of the subject-matter of the hon. Member's question.

Police Inquiries

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that in the prosecution of inquiries relating to criminal investigation and other branches of police work it is necessary for the police to obtain special authority in respect of each matter desired to be inquired into by them whenever such inquiries have to be made of the postal authorities and the Labour Exchanges of the Board of Trade; and whether, having regard to the delay and other hindrances caused by this official requirement having to be complied with, he will take steps to have the requirements of those Departments abrogated and the system brought into uniformity with the rules prevailing in other public offices?

I am not prepared on any facts now before me to ask for an alteration in the rules which the two Departments mentioned have made after consultation with the police authorities.

Finance (No. 3) Bill

As amended on consideration, to be printed. [Bill 168.]

Bill Presented

Trading with the Enemy (Extension) Bill,—"to provide for the extension of the restrictions relating to trading with the enemy to persons to whom, though not resident or carrying on business in enemy territory, it is, by reason of their enemy nationality or enemy associations, expedient to extend such restrictions." Presented by Lord ROBERT CECIL; supported by Mr. Pretyman and the Solicitor-General; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 167.]

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

Can the Prime Minister say when he proposes to introduce the Parliament and Registration Bill?

It is proposed that the Bill shall be introduced to-morrow under the Ten Minutes' Rule.

May I ask my right hon. Friend if he proposes to ask the House to sit on Friday this week?

No, Sir; not if we get the Third Reading of the Finance Bill to-morrow, and—I must add one other proviso—if proper progress is made with the Rent Bill to-day.

Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to say when the Second Reading of the Parliament Bill will be taken?

When will the Chancellor of the Exchequer be in a position to introduce his Bill dealing with securities, for which the Money Resolution has already been passed?

Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to say anything about the Munitions Bill?

It is in a forward state, but I cannot say at the moment the precise date.

Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Extent of Act.)

It shall be lawful for His Majesty by Order in Council to prescribe the areas to which having regard to conditions arising out of the present War the provisions of this Act shall apply, but no area other than the administrative county of London or a borough or urban district with a population according to the last Census exceeding one hundred thousand shall be prescribed except areas where it appears to His Majesty that, owing to the influx of population or other circumstances attributable to the present War, there is a dearth of housing accommodation, and where such an Order is made as respects any area it shall be the duty of such local authority as may be specified in the Order to publish the Order in such manner as they may think best adapted for informing the persons affected and insuring publicity, and the Order may contain such incidental, consequential or supplemental provisions as may appear necessary or proper for the purposes of the Order.

I rise to ask your permission, Mr. Whitley, to move pro forma that you do report Progress and ask leave to sit again, on the ground that this is a Bill of a very urgent character, solely to deal with an emergency arising out of the War, and in respect of which I desire, for the information of the House, to make a short statement with a view to the position taken up by the Government in respect to some of the Clauses in the Bill, in reference to which it was suggested on the First Reading, and on the Second Reading, that some Amendments should be made. I do not suggest this in order that any discussion should arise until the individual Amendments are reached, but solely for the convenience of the Committee to know in advance what are the views of the Government.

Of course, such a Motion at this time would be very exceptional, but I must say that it might conduce very much to the saving of time, and if it met with the general consent of the Committee I think, on a special occasion like this, it might be permitted. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"] I gather that is the general view of the Committee. I have only in mind one similar circumstance, and I believe that was in the year 1887, but I should not like to found myself on a precedent of that kind, and I would rather take this matter as an exceptional one under the present emergency, and say that, if a similar case should ever arise in future, it should be dealt with on its merits, apart from what we do now.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I am very much obliged to the House, and I need hardly say I desire to be as brief as I can. On the introductory stage and on the Second Reading of this Bill there were two Clauses to which special attention was directed. The first was Clause 1, under which it was proposed to apply the special areas by the procedure known as an Order in Council, and the second was the limitation in the Bill in regard to rent. In regard to the first, I desire to say, in confirmation of the views I expressed on the Second Reading, that it is the intention of the Government to accept the Amendment standing in the names of several hon. Members for the dropping of Clause 1, which abandons the procedure to which I nave referred, and makes the Bill applicable to the whole country, subject only to the existence of the conditions which call for the Bill to be put into force. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I do not quite understand that interruption. I think there is a misunderstanding of what I intended to convey to the Committee, and what I was very anxious the Committee should understand. This is not a Bill which proposes to deal with all rents in the country or all houses, or which proposes to deal with all mortgages. This Bill was introduced, and I had the consent of the House to introduce it, on the clear understanding that the Government proposed to deal with the rents of small tenements which have been raised since the War, and where the raising of rent imposed an unfair burden on the class of the community less able than any other to bear any additional burden.

That was the ground on which I obtained the consent of the House to introduce the Bill, and what I mean by the effect of the alteration now is that the Bill will apply generally, but only to those cases throughout the country where there has been an increased rent, and in consequence of the increased rent there is interference with the accommodation of the working classes, or there are difficulties of that kind, and, incidentally, we propose to deal with mortgages upon this class of property, that having been urged as the main reason for the increase of rent. The case of the building societies was raised, and the Government are very anxious to hear the views of the Committee on the position of those societies. They seem to us to stand in a rather different category from any other institu- tion which advances money, or does work of this kind. They have a somewhat special claim upon the consideration of Parliament, and we shall be extremely glad if we are able to find a method by which their position can be safeguarded. Then there is the question of eviction. It was shown that, under the Bill as it stands, while you are able to deal with the rent, you might be leaving a door open which ought to be closed, by enabling the owner to evict the tenant altogether, and, therefore, for reasons which I will not go into, punish him in another way.

4.0 P.M.

That was not intended, and I hope it will be found that with the Amendments down on the Paper the measure will be generally accepted. The other point is connected with the rates question. There is a general feeling that there ought to be some limitation with regard to the increase in rates. There are two or three Amendments on the Paper, and I have one down myself in the name of the Government, and I hope it will be possible to also meet this difficulty. Those are the main Amendments we hope to see carried during the Committee stage, and I thought it was for the convenience of hon. Members that I should mention them now. I beg the Committee to realise that the Government must resist any attempt to carry this Bill further than it is originally intended to go. If a case can be made for dealing with the whole question of mortgages, we are prepared to listen to it and examine it as we did this question before introducing our Bill; but we could not assent to this Bill being used to graft on it wider powers than those for which we have made ourselves responsible. I regard the passage of this Bill as very urgent. I believe every day is important, and as soon as we get the powers under this Bill we can do something to end these evils. If other difficulties of this kind can be shown to exist and call for a remedy, the Government will not be afraid of dealing with them by separate legislation.

Yes, Sir; I hope the Committee will be able to agree to a moderate extension of those figures which will be more generally applicable, but, on the other hand, I hope the Committee will not attempt to take advantage of the good nature of the Government in this direction. I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion to report Progress, by leave, withdrawn.

With regard to the Amendments on the Paper, the first two are anticipatory Amendments. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Yeo), in view of the statement which has just been made, desires to move his Amendment; if not, we will proceed with the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I do not intend to vote against the Government on this occasion, but I rise principally to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether I am correct in my interpretation of the speech he has just delivered. I understand that the proposal is to strike out Clause 1, and to allow the Bill to apply all over the three Kingdoms to a certain class of cases mentioned in Clause 1. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Bill would apply generally throughout the three Kingdoms to areas where

"owing to the influx of population or other circumstances attributable to the War, there is a dearth of housing accommodation."

If that is a correct interpretation of what would, in my opinion, so far as Ireland is concerned, reduce the concession he has made to very little indeed.

Really, the hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The words the hon. Member has just referred to are contained in what was the original form of the Bill. There are in the Bill as it stands, unamended, two definitions. The first is a population of 100,000, and the second is the descriptive words of which the hon. Member has referred which guide the department in defining the Order in Council. Those definitions have gone now. The reference in my earlier remarks was to cases where rent has been raised since the War upon properties defined in the Bill, and it has no reference to these words which now disappear altogether.

I think the statement of the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly clear, but he has not given the Committee any reason for the change which has come over the Government. The result will be that instead of having an Order in Council when this Bill becomes law it will be the law of the land, and no Amendment will be introduced obliging the Government to go to His Majesty for an Order in Council. The Bill, I understand, will apply to the whole of the three Kingdoms. That is perfectly clear, but I should like to know why it has been thought necessary to make this very great change. I assumed that the Government-had well thought out the procedure when the right hon. Gentleman brought in the Bill, and it was then thought necessary to put in a limitation that an Order in Council was necessary to apply the Bill to certain districts. Now the right hon. Gentleman says he is going to abandon those two limitations, and I think we ought to have some little reason given us for the abandonment, first of all, of the Order in Council, and secondly, of the limitation. I am not saying that this course may not be right, and personally I am inclined to think that on the whole it is right. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Yes, but I want a reason for it. I do not think the Government should bring in Bills, and before there has been any discussion on a large portion of the Bill suddenly withdraw that portion. I do not approve of the Bill, and the more I study it and the more communications I receive from different parts of the country, the more I am convinced that the Bill is one of the worst of Bills and the very worst drafted Bill I have known. We have evidence of this by the Motion under which the first Clause goes out. I think it is one of the worst drafted Bills that has ever been: brought before this House. If you are going to do an evil you might as well do it impartially and make everybody all over the country suffer. I think we ought to have some reason why the Government have suddenly changed their front.

I thought I heard the right hon. Gentleman state what his reasons were for taking this course. I believe he said that it was owing to the number of representations and objections which had been made by hon. Members of this House.

May I point out to my right hon. Friend that that is not a sufficient reason We assumed that the Government had thought out this measure. They do not bring in a measure simply to see what hon. Members in the House think of it, and then arrange their measure by what is thought in the House or in the country. It is their duty to carefully think out the measure first and then bring it in.

I think I can satisfy my hon. Friend the Member for the City of London who is always so anxious to maintain the old traditions of this House. I have not the same facility of speech as my hon. Friend, nor do I believe as firmly as he does in the efficacy of my own speeches. On the Second Reading I took up the attention of the House for some time defending the procedure of the Bill as originally drawn, but the Debates on the introduction and the Second Reading revealed the existence of a great many more cases than our investigations had shown. In all probability the procedure by Order in Council would involve too much delay and would possibly throw upon the Government Department a very difficult task. I thought I made it clear on that occasion that it would be the intention of the Government to accept Amendments of this kind, and the reason why I did not give a fuller explanation to-day was because I thought my speech on the previous occasion really sufficed. With regard to what the hon. Baronet has said as to the character of this Bill, I am afraid we are not likely to agree, but I hope he will allow me to differ from him when he condemns the drafting. My experience, and I have been some years in Opposition, is that when an hon. Member in Opposition begins to attack the drafting of a measure it generally shows that he has very little else to say against it, and that is a safe argument for an hon. Member in Opposition to attack the Government with. We are not responsible for the drafting, because that is the work of the Government draftsmen who, I may say, have been tremendously overworked. The changes which I have suggested are not due to any defect in the drafting, but because we wish to abandon the machinery of the Clause.

I should like, before this Clause goes, to know exactly what conditions are necessary in order to bring about the operation of this Bill. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that it would apply only to the conditions laid down in the first Clause, but if this Clause goes I do not see what there will be to show what conditions do apply.

I thought I had made it clear that the condition's are that the rent has been raised in respect of the class of property with which this Bill proposes to deal.

I understand that the right hon. Gentleman has given us an unqualified undertaking that no restrictions of any kind are going to be imposed upon the application of this Bill to the whole country. I also took the view that there might be some subsequent restrictions imposed whereby the Bill would only apply to cases where the rent was actually raised. I understand that the principle of the Bill is that from the date of the War onwards no rents shall be raised at all in the case of the property which is dealt with under the Bill, and that no restrictions of any kind shall apply. The Bill is to be applicable to the whole country and to every district of the country without any qualification being inserted at a later stage. On that distinct understanding, as one of those who put down an Amendment to omit the Clause, I do not propose to move it, accepting the right hon. Gentleman's statement as meaning that there will be no restrictions whatever.

I think it absolutely essential that the Committee should be quite clear in its own mind before we allow this matter to pass. At present we are not aware whether the Government intend to propose any Amendment later.

Oh, no. I have done my best to explain the matter, and I seem to have wholly failed. If the Government intended to introduce qualifying words shortly, it would have been my duty to have said so. I have said nothing of the kind. I decline to take the interpretation which other people place upon my words. I endeavoured to make it perfectly clear, and I thought it was understood by the majority of the House.

I am certainly the last to desire to cast any doubt upon the word of the right hon. Gentleman. My difficulty was in understanding exactly what he had said, and the hon. Member for Central Birmingham (Sir F. Lowe) has shown that a similar impression prevailed on the other side of the House, namely, that there was to be some restriction in regard to areas. After what the right hon. Gentleman has now said, I have no difficulty in understanding that no limitation as to areas is to apply, and consequently that to all small dwelling-houses within certain limits this Bill will apply in every part of the country.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

CLAUSE 2.—(Restriction on Raising Rent or Rate of Mortgage Interest.)

(1) Where the rent of a dwelling-house to which this Act applies, or the rate of interest on a mortgage to which this Act applies, has been since the commencement of the present war, or is hereafter during the continuance of this Act, increased above the standard rent or the standard rate of interest as hereinafter defined, the amount by which the rent or interest payable exceeds the amount which would have been payable had the increase not been made shall, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary, be irrecoverable:

Provided that—

(i.) This Sub-section shall mot apply to any rent or mortgage interest which accrued due before such date (not being earlier than the twenty-fifth day of November, nineteen hundred and fifteen) as may as respects any area be prescribed by the Order in Council applying this Act to that area; and

(ii.) Where the landlord has since the commencement of the present war incurred, or during the continuance of this Act incurs, expenditure on the improvement or structural alteration of a dwelling-house, an increase of rent not exceeding six per cent. per annum on the amount so expended shall not be deemed to be an increase for the purposes of this Act; and

(iii.) Any transfer to a tenant of any burden or liability previously borne by the landlord shall for the purposes of this Act be treated as an alteration of rent, and where as the result of such a transfer the terms on which a dwelling-house is held are on the whole less favourable to the tenant than the previous terms the rent shall be deemed to be increased whether or not the sum periodically payable by way of rent is increased, and if any question arises as to the amount of such increase the question shall be determined by the County Court, whose decision shall be final and conclusive.

(2) A person shall not in consideration of the grant, renewal, or continuance of a tenancy of any dwelling-house to which this Act applies require the payment of any fine, premium, or other like sum in addition to the rent, and where any such payment has been made in respect of any such dwelling-house after the twenty-fifth day of November, nineteen hundred and fifteen, then whether it was made before or after the date when the Order in Council applying this Act to the area in which the dwelling-house is situate was made the amount shall be recoverable by the tenant by whom it was made from the landlord and may without prejudice to any other method of recovery be deducted from any rent payable by him to the landlord.

(3) It shall not be lawful for any mortgagee under a mortgage to which this Act applies, during the continuance of this Act, and so long as interest at the standard rate is paid and the covenants of the mortgage are observed, to call in his mortgage or to exercise any right of foreclosure, sale, or other means of enforcing his security:

Provided that this provision shall not affect any power of sale exercisable by a mortgagee who was at the date of the passing of this Act a mortgagee in possession.

(4) Where the mortgaged property includes both property to which this Act applies and other property, the mortgage shall for the purposes of this Act be deemed to be divisible, and the amount of the loan to be apportioned between the property to which this Act applies and the other property in proportion to the respective rateable values thereof.

The first Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for South-East Lancashire (Mr. Tyson Wilson)—in Sub-section (1), after the words "dwelling-house" ["Where the rent of a dwelling-house"], to insert the words "or a chief rent, or a ground rent"—is outside the scope of the Bill. The second Amendment—in Sub-section (1) to leave out the words "to which this Act applies" —is not now required in view of the decision to omit Clause 1.

On a point of Order. Do you rule that the words "to which this Act applies" fall out of the Bill?

No, I do not rule that. I thought that the Amendment was not required. If the hon. Member takes an opposite view—

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "to which this Act applies."

I have put down this Amendment and, subject to what may be said by the right hon. Gentleman, I think the words ought to be struck out. Clause 1, which we have already deleted, laid down certain conditions to the effect that the Act should only apply to a certain kind of house. I understand now that it will apply to all houses in all areas. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It will apply to all houses of a certain rent throughout the country. Therefore, I suggest that it may be still necessary to have these words omitted, rand in order to clear the matter up I will move that they be omitted.

I hope that my hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. If it were carried it would make the Bill apply to all houses, whatever their rental value.

Then that, at all events, is a clear issue between us. It is doing the very thing which I have begged the Committee not to do. It carries the Bill into a totally different region and makes it apply to all rents and dwellings throughout the country. It is a proposal which the Government could not possibly accept.

I will put a question to the hon. Member who moves the Amendment: Is it the intention of the Amendment that it should make the Bill apply to all dwelling-houses of whatever value?

I do not think that the omission of these words would have that effect, but I am not going to press the Amendment unless the Committee desires that it should be done.

As I see that is the effect of the Amendment, I must decline to put it to the Committee, because it would go altogether outside the scope of the Bill, which refers to small dwelling-houses. I could not agree that a dwelling-house of, say, £400 rental value was a small dwelling-house. Therefore, I cannot put the Amendment. The next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Sir F. Lowe)—in Subsection (1), after the word "applies" ["Where the rent of a dwelling-house to which this Act applies"], to insert the words "the rates payable in respect of such dwelling-houses"—proposes to deal with the question of rates, and that is quite outside the scope of the Bill.

Might I, on the point of Order, say that in the case of small weekly houses the rates are supposed to be included in the rents? I, therefore, respectfully suggest that the matter is applicable to this Bill. Further, my right hon. Friend has said that he proposes to deal with the question of the rise in rates, so it seems to me that the question of the rates is a very material factor to the Bill as it stands. If you rule, however, that I am not in order in moving this precise Amendment, I shall, of course, willingly bow to your ruling; but, at the same time, I should very much like my right hon. Friend, on this question of order if possible, to indicate very shortly what he proposes to do in the way of limiting the raising of rates. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is on the Paper!"]

On the point of Order. My hon. Friend has called your attention to the fact that the Government have stated that they intend to do something to meet the question of the rates. May I call your attention to the fact that there is an Amendment on the Paper dealing with that subject? If my hon. Friend is out of order, I am very much afraid that the right hon. Gentleman will also be ruled out of order, and, as I agree with him on this subject, I hope that you will not persist in that ruling.

I will not rule on two different things at the same time. The Amendment of the hon. Member for Birmingham is to the effect that no increase of rates by a local authority shall be recoverable, and that, of course, is clearly quite outside the scope and intention of the Bill. I do not quite understand the purpose of the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Glasgow University (Sir Henry Craik)—in Sub-section (1) to leave out the words "has been since the commencement of the present War, or"—I think it may also be outside the scope of the Bill, but I will hear the hon. Member as to the purpose of the Amendment.

The object is to secure that the Bill shall have effect from the commencement of the Act and shall not be retrospective—that it shall apply to any rise which takes place from the present date, from the passing of the Act, and not from 3rd August, 1914.

On the point of Order. May I submit that the object of this Bill is to relieve tenants whose rents have been increased from that extra burden? If my hon. Friend's Amendment were carried, all those burdens now existing would have to be borne. Does he really propose that?

That, of course, is a question of the merits. The Amendment of the hon. Member, I think, is a limitation, and not an extension of the Bill, and he is entitled to move it.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "has been since the commencement of the present War, or."

If I thought the effect of this Amendment would really be harmful to those whom the right hon. Gentleman wishes to help, I would not move it. I am not going to attack generally the principles of the Bill, dangerous as in some respects they are, but touching contracts actually made within the last few months, contracts, made with their eyes open, and with a full knowledge of the circumstances, makes the effect of the Bill greatly more dangerous. We cannot, when we break up contracts made quite recently, shut our eyes to the certain effect it will have. If you lower rents that have been freely entered into by a contract agreed since 3rd August last year, you will undoubtedly spread an uneasiness and a distrust amongst owners of property and landlords. If they have raised their rents beyond that for which they have any justification, covering more than the extra burdens placed upon them, so much the worse for them, for vengeance will come. But if you go back upon arrangements made since 3rd August, I am perfectly certain, whatever the right hon. Gentleman's benevolent feelings may be, that he will not be doing a real benefit to those whom he professes to benefit by this Bill. Those who are to derive benefit from this Bill are not the only people who have suffered from the War. Those who are suffering from burdens placed by rates and taxes upon buildings and who have very small incomes have also to be considered.

There are many shareholders of building societies whose case has been put before me. I have gone round among Members who know more about their circumstances than I do, and many of them have told me that they saw reason in the complaints, but at this moment of emergency they did not feel called upon to support them. That is all very well, but depend upon it these laws of political economy have their own way and effect their own vengeance, just as certainly as the forces of Nature. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that he is going to stop the rise of prices by interfering with contracts made within the last few months and by the arbitrary fixing of prices, he is repeating the old story of King Canute. These things are really erring against the laws of political economy, and in this particular case it is aggravated by the opening up of contracts made within comparatively recent time. If we are going to hazard precarious legislation of this sort, at least let us begin with the passing of the Act when we know where we stand. I am bound to express my conviction, even although it is in opposition to the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman.

I very much hope that my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment. I have as much respect as he has, or as anybody in any quarter of the House has, for the sanctity of contracts. I have fought for it as hard as anybody. But I confess I feel very anxious when I find that, at a moment like this, questions of this kind are being raised. I ask myself, "Are they stopping to talk about the sanctity of contracts in France or Belgium, where they have had to deal with questions of this kind? Would we be debating them here if the enemy were literally at our gates, as he is in those countries?" This is emergency legislation, which proposes to deal with a very difficult and real evil. If my hon. Friend doubts it, I can assure him we did not bring in the Bill for popular reasons, or in order to catch votes. We did it after very careful investigation of the circumstances, and of individual cases, and let me tell him also that if the Amendment were carried, the man who the moment the war broke out raised his rents, and raised them very harshly, will be protected as against a landlord who had waited and done nothing, but who, within the last week or two, has come to the conclusion that the burden of rates is too heavy, and that he must have some increase of rents. If the Amendment is carried, it will lead to the Bill becoming inoperative in ninety-nine out of every hundred cases where it is most required. I therefore hope my hon. Friend will not press it. These cases are very numerous. The Bill deals with a very real evil, and the Government asks the House to relieve the people I have referred to from an unjust and excessive war burden, which is out of all proportion to their strength to bear.

I was very glad to hear the words which have fallen from the right hon. Gentleman. No doubt almost unexampled prosperity has come to the working classes in recent days, and landlords have forced these high rents upon the working classes. But at the same time there are other classes who have been seriously injured by the War. There is an innumerable class of clerks and warehousemen, artists and teachers of music, who have been placed in terribly straitened circumstances by reason of the War. These people have had to leave a better class of houses, and go into the smaller houses, and in so doing they have come into competition with workmen who are earning large wages on munitions work. If, therefore, we take out these words, we shall do a great injustice to a very large class, and I hope for that reason alone the right hon. Gentleman will see that they are not deprived of the valuable provisions of this Bill.

If this Amendment were to be accepted there is every reason why the whole Bill should be dropped, for that is the logical conclusion of the arguments which were submitted in its favour. The hon. Member who proposed the Amendment asserted that, unless it were adopted, we shall be interfering with the laws of political economy. But the War has done that already, and that is our whole case. The ordinary laws of supply and demand will not work now. They do not always work in normal times with regard to housing. No doubt the tenant has, with his eyes open, entered into a contract during the period of the War which involves an increase of rent, but then he has not been able to help himself. He could not go next door, and we have not been able to build houses in the meantime to an extent which will prevent landlords extorting more rent than they should receive. That we should, at a time like this, have arguments put forward such as have been submitted in support of this Amendment is an indication to me that we cannot be appreciating what is the real position. I was very glad indeed to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that those countries which have the War nearer to their doors than we have would not be wasting time, when dealing with matters of this sort, in talking about the ordinary laws of political economy. I am very glad, too, that the right hon. Gentleman resisted the Amendment.

I am bound to accept very readily the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. When right hon. Gentlemen with records behind them like those which the sponsors of this Bill have within the knowledge of all of us bring forward a measure of this kind, I think we can easily see that the reasons for proposing this emergency Bill —reasons known to the Cabinet before its introduction — must have been of a tremendously important kind. The whole political history of the occupants of the Front Bench justifies one in coming to that conclusion. I want to ask one question: What will be the effect upon past experiments in extorting exorbitant rents if these words are eliminated from the Bill? Does the right hon. Gentleman propose that such amounts as have been paid in excess, as we think, in the past— paid between the date of the commencement of the War and the date on which the Act comes into operation—shall be made recoverable from any man who has taken early advantage of the circumstances of the War? Unless he does, that man will still be in a very much better position than those who have only recently raised their rents above the pre-war standard, because he will have in his greedy fist the amount which he has managed to extract. I think that, logically, the right hon. Gentleman should not stop short of making these extortions recoverable.

I notice that hon. Members below the Gangway are crying, "Agreed!" But this is an extremely important measure, on which those who hold strong opinions have a right to express them, and I, for one, intend to state my views. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities (Sir H. Craik) made a most excellent speech, in which he alluded to political economy, and his remarks were received, apparently, with derision in all parts of the House when he was pointing to the ruinous effects of the proposed interference with the laws of contract. He has been told that during the War he ought not to talk about political economy, and he has been reminded that people have been obliged to take smaller houses than they occupied in pre-war times. He has also been reminded that there is a monopoly in houses, and that if a man is threatened with an increase of rent he cannot go next door. I should like to ask hon. Gentlemen opposite what is to happen in cases where a man goes to buy a little meat, or a little bread, and finds that the price has risen? Are we to have an Act of Parliament saying that there shall be pre-war prices for bread and meat because there is a war going on? If there is any reason in the speech delivered by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Glyn-Jones), he should endeavour to put pressure on the Government to introduce a measure of that kind.

It certainly seems to be developing something which is not contained in the Amendment, but I do not know where it began.

The question before the Committee is as to what shall be the starting point for the operation of this provision—whether it shall be the commencement of the War or the passing of the Act.

I am afraid I was led astray by the arguments of the hon. Member opposite. But I am very glad that the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division (Mr. Barnes) interrupted me, because it shows that my arguments were very destructive of the Bill, and I can quite understand that he did not want me to pursue them. I will now deal with the Amendment of my hon. Friend. I presume I am at liberty to refer to what was said by the President of the Local Government Board with regard to France and Belgium, and the serious state of affairs which has arisen, and which I presume has necessitated the inclusion of the words which my hon. Friend desires to omit. I am not going to pit myself against the right hon. Gentleman, who says that France and Belgium have undertaken legislation of this sort. I do not know that they have. But that has nothing to do with this House. We used to be told that because Germany was doing certain things we therefore must do the same. I prefer to legislate for this country without regard to what other countries are going to do, or have done. I would recall the attention of my right hon. Friend to the fact that a Committee was set up by the Secretary for Scotland to inquire into circumstances connected with the alleged increase in the rentals for small dwelling-houses and tenements in Scotland. He apparently ignores the findings of that Committee, which were to the effect that the increase was only slightly over 5 per cent., and that the evidence adduced did not justify the contention that there was anything in the nature of a monopoly. That was contained in the Report of the Committee appointed by the Secretary for Scotland to inquire into these questions in Glasgow and others parts of Scotland where this agitation first arose, and where the workmen were receiving enormously high wages. That disposes of the statement of my right hon. Friend, that there was a serious condition of affairs which necessitated this Bill.

I have been twenty-three years in this House, and I have always fought against retrospective legislation. If these words are left in this Bill, we shall, for the first time, pass retrospective legislation. I have always said, when we are asked to pass legislation of this nature, provided we do not make it retrospective, we do it with our eyes open, and the country knows what we are doing and can act accordingly. If the Bill is passed with these words in, the result will be, probably, that, in the future, nobody will put their money into houses, and possibly that may meet the views of some hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway who want municipalities to undertake all housing. But there is no doubt that if these words are not left out, we shall, for the first time, so far as I know, in the history of the House itself, at any rate since the days of the Long Parliament—a body to which this Parliament bears some analogy—have retrospective legislation introduced, and I regret very much that my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board should have been the one to set what I think is a very unfortunate precedent. I presume my hon. Friend will not divide on this Amendment. I am afraid if he did we should not get very much support for it, because for the moment the reasoning faculties of hon. Members seem to have disappeared.

I have no wish to press this Amendment upon the Committee, but I must say that the President of the Local Government Board, in his speech, did not use the generally conciliatory manner to which we are accustomed from him. He told me with something of a gibe that my moving such an Amendment must show an entire want of appreciation of the extreme gravity of the situation.

I do not think you are meeting the difficulties of the War best when you propose legislation which many of us conscientiously think will have a dangerous tendency and, perhaps, be pernicious, even for the very classes for whom you intend it. With regard to what the President of the Local Government Board said with respect to the discussions in France, I can tell him that I have followed those discussions very closely, and that, far from having set aside questions of that sort, days and more than days have been spent in the French Chamber of Deputies in the most anxious discussion of this very question, and it was not considered that it was wasting time in the midst of the anxieties and pressure of the War to consider the principles of political economy as being of the greatest importance to the inhabitants of France. I do not wish to delay the Bill, and I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

I do not rise for the purpose of continuing the general discussion, but to ask the Government why they have adopted this form of verbiage, "since the commencement of the present War." When this Bill comes to be construed before a Court, evidence will be required as to when the War began. Who is to prove when the War began? Why not say, "before the 4th of August, 1914."

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.

The next three Amendments in the name of the hon. Member for the Edgbaston Division of Birmingham (Sir Francis Lowe) are part of his previous proposal.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "irrecoverable" ["shall, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary, be irrecoverable"], to insert the words "except in the case of a building society incorporated under the Building Societies Acts which increases its mortgage interest by not more than ten shillings per cent."

This Amendment brings us to the question of the position of building societies under the Bill. I was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman, in introducing this matter this afternoon, say that the Government were anxious to meet the case of building societies, if possible, because it is a very serious case indeed. It is very important, in meeting the grievance which has arisen with regard to the unreasonable increase of rent during the War, that we should not injure the future building of houses in this country. It is inevitable, whatever you do, that this Bill will have some reaction injurious to the future building of small cottages in this country, but we ought to reduce that injurious action to the lowest possible limits, and also see that we do not injure unnecessarily the thrift institutions of the country. Chief among those are the building societies. There have been three main sources of cottages for the working classes in this country first, the speculative builder; second, the building society advancing loans; and third, the societies and companies building cottages which may be roughly described as the co-partnership cottage societies. The building societies are on an enormous scale. They have 1,000,000 members, very largely derived from members of the working classes. Their capital is £66,000,000, of which £60,000,000 is invested in mortgages. Their position at the present time is a very strained one. Owing to the War there is very little new building going on, therefore their activities and source of profit are cut off. When I say "profit," it must be understood that these are purely mutual institutions, and are not established for profit in the ordinary way, although, of course, they have to make sufficient profit to pay the very modest rates of interest necessary in order to get their capital. The great increase in the Income Tax has hit them heavily, because the building societies pay the Income Tax under an arrangement with the Government, and the rates of interest which they pay to their members and depositors are free of Income Tax, the reason being that a very large number of the depositors and shareholders would not have to pay Income Tax at all.

When the War Loan came along with its offer of 4½ per cent. the building societies, which were only paying 4 per cent; to their shareholders and perhaps 3 per cent. to their depositors—in some cases more, but they are very frequent rates, at any rate, in the North of England —found their depositors were withdrawing large sums in order to put the money into the War Loan. That was a process with which they did not wish to interfere at all, but it necessarily put them in an awkward position. They had to offer more to their depositors and shareholders in order to get the capital necessary for carrying on their work, and for that reason they had to charge a little more to the mortgagors to whom they had lent their money. Now comes this Bill, which not only prevents them from charging more in future to the mortgagors, but also compels them to go back to the old rates in cases in which those old rates have been altered since the War began. A very large amount of money in the North of England was lent by building societies at 3½ per cent., I believe a great deal of it is still lent at 3½ per cent., but under the powers which they have of giving notice of the variation of the rate of interest, they have, in some cases, put the rate up ½ per cent. by agreement with the borrowers. The borrowers always have the power of paying them off. That will be upset by this Bill, and they will be obliged to go back to the old rate of 3½ per cent. The result, of course, will be that they will be subject to very heavy withdrawals, especially if we have another War Loan, say of 5 per cent., and in order to attract capital they will have to increase the amount of interest they are paying to shareholders, depositors, or bankers in some cases. They have no means left within their power of increasing their income, and as they cannot pay these increased heavy charges out of their old income, they will be in a position of very great difficulty. Some of them, of course, have considerable reserves, and those societies which have them can draw upon those reserves. Others may be able to manage by getting loans from their bankers. But I am assured by responsible people, who must know the facts, that there is a very great danger, if the Bill passes in its present form, that many building societies will be compelled to go into liquidation because of the reasons I have given.

The Amendment proposes to allow the building societies a very small increase in the rate of interest on the mortgages which they have out; in other words, that they should be allowed to raise those rates by ½ per cent. In a very large number of cases the house coming within the operation of this Bill is a very small one, and in a large proportion of those small houses the mortgagor is the actual occupier, so that what it will mean to him is a very small increase of his rent. I have an alternative Amendment down which I should be very glad to accept if the Government do not see their way to accept the one I am now moving. That alternative is, in effect, that a building society may raise its rate of interest by permission of the County Court judge. I am not going to occupy the time of the Committee any longer on this subject, although it is a very big one, and I beg the Committee to realise that it is a very important one, but this I do say, that if the Government cannot see their way to accept the Amendment which I have put down at the request of the chief building societies in the country, I hope that they will come forward with some plan of their own to assist the building societies. If there is a heavy blow struck at these institutions it not only means a very great check to the building of cottages after the War, because people will have their confidence shaken and will say these institutions are not what they thought them to be and failed them at the time of their chief difficulty, but it will be a great check to the thrift of the working classes.

I hope that in any remarks I shall make I shall not be misunderstood, and that it will not go forward that I am not a friend of the building societies, but I must honestly say that I cannot consistently support the Amendment moved by the hon. Member opposite. What is the position of a building society in regard to its borrowers? They are the owners of the houses, in some cases they live in them, in some cases they let them and hold the houses as investments. In most cases they pay back their mortgage interest and principal by instalments spread over a large number of years. A very solemn bargain has been entered into, and that will be carried on and carried out. Why should you penalise in this way your shareholders and borrowers by telling them that though there is no increase from rents the building society should be able to say, "We will increase your rate of mortgage interest "? It seems a most inconsistent and ill-considered Amendment for the hon. Member to move. The protection is not wanted for the borrower from the building society or for the building society rate of interest. The real protection that the building society wants is against a run by depositors upon loose cash. They are the people who can give a month's notice and get the money back over the counter. I was hoping to see some Amendment put down by the Government which would protect the building societies from being raided by depositors. That is the only consistent protection, if you are going to have emergency legislation of this kind. Of course, their business for the time being is largely shut down, because there is no borrowing and no house building going on owing to the War. It will be a most serious thing for building societies if a depositor, who is distinct entirely from the shareholders and borrowers, is able to claim payment of his deposit over the counter. I know the difficulty, and I hope the Government will extend some protection to the building societies against a run upon their coffers by the depositors, but so far as the Amendment protects building societies at the expense of other people, I think it is unjust.

5.0 P.M.

I was a little alarmed when I heard the President of the Local Government Board intimate that he might possibly accept, and would certainly favourably consider, the proposal to exempt building societies.

I beg my right hon. Friend's pardon. I was under a misapprehension. I am somewhat relieved, but I beg him and the Committee not to accept what I conceive to be a very dangerous Amendment unless they receive very much more evidence than has been brought forward. I know the hon. Member has experience in these matters, and I am sure he has presented the best case he can to the House, but I submit that he has presented no case which justifies the treating of a building society differently from a private mortgagee. My sympathies would be much more directed towards the position of the private mortgagee than towards building societies. Then the hon. Member tells us that if this Bill is passed there is a danger of many of these societies being ruined. I can claim to have had a somewhat extensive knowledge of building societies and I cannot believe the state of their affairs is anything like as bad as the hon. Member suggests. I find it very difficult to believe that that would happen.

I think it ought not to go forth that I suggested that the state of their affairs was bad. That would be very injurious. But it would mean ruin to the most solvent institution if its money was constantly drawn out and it was unable to replace it.

As I understood the hon. Member, he made no statement as to the present state of their finance, but he certainly prophesied that if the Bill passed a great many of them would be ruined.

Possibly the hon. Member said only some of them. I am sure his impression is correct, but I do not believe that any of our well-known building societies—and I am very familiar with those of the North of England—would accept the gloomy prophecy of the hon. Member. Then he puts it forward that some of these societies might go into liquidation as supporting his view that houses will cease to be built if that happens, I cannot follow that proposition. Why the going into liquidation of one or two large building societies should in any way interfere with the building of houses after the War is over I cannot for the life of me see. The whole question of building societies and subscribers to building societies is one of supply and demand. If there is a demand there will be supply. If there is no demand, there will not be supply. I beg the right hon. Gentleman to consider very carefully, as I am sure he will, any proposal to exempt building societies holding, as they do, such enormous interests in land. Just think what you are doing. The hon. Member told us that one society, the name of which he did not mention, nor does it matter, had no fewer than £66,000,000 out on mortgage.

HON. MEMBERS: All the societies!

I thought it incredible, and I was going to offer some mild criticism on the figure. That is, I understand, the generally accepted estimate, but think what that means. You are saying to mortgagees who have £66,000,000 lent on mortgage that the provisions of this Bill shall apply, and shall only apply, to private individuals who have lent money. It is not only far-reaching, it is a most dangerous proposal, and I am sure my right hon. Friend, while sympathising with the principle which underlies the suggestion, will see that it would drive such a hole in the Bill that it would be quite impossible to carry it out.

I hope the Committee will not accept the Amendment, which I regard as a very ill-advised one in the interests of the building societies themselves. Take the point that the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Smith) has made much of, the question of the insolvency of some building societies owing to the action of the Bill. I think that position has been entirely misunderstood by my hon. Friend (Mr. Williams). What is the position with respect to the finance of building societies? I have here a return taken from the last report of the Registrar-General. I find there was on mortgage at that time £61,500,000. How is that capital provided? Where did the building societies obtain the money for such a large figure as they have lent out on mortgage? I find that £46,000,000 of this has been provided by shareholders in building societies, who have no power of giving notice and calling in their capital, and that only £16,000,000 out of the £62,000,000 was money on deposit. But my hon. Friend certainly gave the Committee the impression that every one of these people who have the £16,000,000 on deposit between them could give so many days' notice and rush in and get their money, and drive the building societies into liquidation. That is an absolute travesty of the case. The fact is that this money is accepted on deposit by the building societies subject to certain clearly defined rules, one rule being that when notice of withdrawal is given the society is only compelled to pay if it has the money available, and if more money is called in that the society has at its disposal then the payments are made in rotation or by ballot as the money becomes available. So that his gloomy picture of these splendidly managed building societies being forced into liquidation because they have neglected to take the precaution of providing against a run on their funds, I am thankful to say, is not a true picture. Building society finance is wonderfully well managed. There are some very able men who manage these societies, and any one who takes the trouble, as I have done, to study the rules and the balance sheets and the method of working of building societies will be quite satisfied that they are well able to take care of themselves under much severer conditions than those which obtain now.

Apart from the question of solvency or insolvency, I think the acceptance of the Amendment would absolutely torpedo the whole Bill. What does it amount to? There is £62,000,000 lent on mortgage. Of this, £.32,000,000 is lent in sums of less than £500 each, and you may take it that you have at least something like twenty thousand borrowers involved in this sum of £62,000,000, and probably something like thirty thousand houses in working-class districts in London and the provincial towns. I have a close personal acquaintance with the operations of building societies in one or two provincial towns. I have one in mind where, in a large industrial district now very much affected by War contracts, something like half the houses are mortgaged to building societies. Then you would have this condition of affairs, that the houses which were mortgaged to building societies would be able to have their mortgage interest increased and presumably, if they were let, would be able to have their rent increased, whereas, the other half of the houses in the district would come under the Bill and the mortgage interest could not be increased. A more staggering blow at the future popularity of building societies it would be impossible to strike. "What," says the working man; "I borrowed £300 from the building society. I have undertaken to repay it in fixed instalments over twenty years, and my neighbour has borrowed £300 from a solicitor. We borrowed at the same rate of interest and when the War comes the building society, which above all other people I looked upon as my friend, as a sort of philanthropic institution, increases my rate of interest, and the solicitor, whom I have never regarded as a philanthropist, does not increase his interest." I fancy the solicitors must have devised the Amendment. I think the profession must have been manipulating the building societies in order to bring them into disrepute and to advance its own interests. The thing has not a leg to stand upon. If there is any argument at all in favour of restricting the increase of mortgage interest, it applies very much more to building societies than to private mortgagees.

Building societies, of course, during the War will have their operations restricted. There is no question of that. People will not come along and put money on deposit at 3½ per cent. during the War, but I do not know that it is desirable that they should, because building operations are not proceeding. There is no need on a large scale for people to borrow money for the erection of houses now, because no houses are being built. I think it would be very much better for people to put their money into War Loan and let the building societies' operations be limited until the War is over. I think working men would have quite enough gumption to realise that it is not possible for building societies to give them such a high rate of interest as to compete with War Loan. I have two or three more pages of argument here, but it seems to me that the Amendment is already stillborn, and I need not use any more argument about it. Building societies are thoroughly sound, the great majority of them are well managed, and they only require to receive the rate of interest on which the bargain has been made. If they receive the rate of interest at which the bargain has been made during the War, they will be able to honour all their financial commitments, and if there is any undue run upon their money on deposit, they will simply refuse to pay it until the monthly repayment of principal and interest gives them further sums with which to meet additional claims. If it is left to the building societies to manage their affairs within the provisions of this Bill I think no kind of difficulty or danger would arise. I think it is a very short-sighted proposal in the interest of building societies themselves. I trust the Committee will not lend an ear to the blandishments of my hon. Friend.

I do not propose to support this Amendment, because, while I hold a very distinct view on this point, the Amendment does not meet the case as I myself see it. My hon. Friend (Sir T. Walters) who speaks with very great authority on building matters, has paid a very strong tribute to the character and capacity of the men who are directing the great building society movement in this country. I am not at all sure that his tribute did not convey a totally different moral to my own mind from that which he had in view when he addressed the Committee. The greater the capacity and intelligence of the men who are directing this building society movement, the more respect it seems to me I must pay to any report they make to this House as to the probable injurious effect of this proposal upon their operations. I think it would be quite impossible for any member of this Committee to read carefully and dispassionately the reports made to the President of the Local Government Board, when the representatives of these building societies waited upon him, without arriving at the conclusion that there was very much greater substantiality behind those representations than would be suggested by the speech of my hon. Friend just now.

My hon. Friend suggested that there are nearly sixteen millions of the capital of these societies lent on deposit, and he further informed the Committee that there was a safeguard in the fact that the building societies have power to restrain the withdrawal of these deposits according to the funds available at any given moment. Surely my hon. Friend did not do justice to the fact as represented in that suggestion. After all, if the operations of building societies are to be safeguarded by any power of restraint against withdrawal of deposits, this Committee is actually in the position of saying that certain citizens of this country, who have sixteen millions of money on deposit at, say, 3 per cent., shall not, owing to conditions created entirely by this national emergency, have the right which every other citizen of the country has to transfer that amount into a more remunerative channel of investment. The position is this, that on the one hand you have this Committee asked to impose an altogether arbitrary restraint upon the liberty of these depositors to place their money in the most remunerative channel, and at the same time you have another member of the Government invoking every citizen of the country to invest every penny of capital at his disposal in channels which will bring him in not less than 4½ to 5 per cent. I think there is not quite that convincing character about the argument which my hon. Friend so ably presented to the Committee just now as to dispose of the possibility of great inequality and inequity if the proposals of the Bill go forward in their present form. I am in no way associated with the building society movement, but after close consultation with many of the leaders of the building society movement in this country, and after close examination of their statements and accounts, I have at least convinced myself that if the Bill goes forward to the Statute Book in its present form a very serious, injurious effect will take place in connection with the operations of these great co-operative institutions.

I wish to say a few words in confirmation of what has been said by some of my hon. Friends on this side of the House in regard to the inexpediency of accepting this Amendment. We have not heard any expression of opinion from the Government on this question, and for that reason, and that reason alone, I have risen, because I do not know whether their silence means that they are considering the advisability of accepting the Amendment. If they are, I wish to impress upon them the inexpediency of doing anything of the kind. I am well acquainted with a great many building societies in the Midlands. I know one in Birmingham, which I think is the largest and strongest in the whole country, and I know that that building society, except on very exceptional occasions, never lends out its money at less than 5 per cent. It gets a good deal more than 5 per cent. because it has the money repaid by fortnightly or monthly instalments, including principal and interest, which really means that the society gets a good deal more than 5 per cent. on the money it has out for the time being. Under these circumstances, I think that they are the last mortgagees in the world who ought to have any consideration of this kind or to get any exemption under this Bill. I hope that my right hon. Friend will not for a moment entertain the idea of accepting this Amendment.

I am completely in accord with the hon. Member for Sheffield (Sir Tudor Walters). But I do not agree with him when, in saying that the Amendment had not a leg to stand upon, he said it might have been drawn up by a lawyer to suit his own interests. I am perfectly sure that no one would do that because it might contribute to his own interests, and I do not suppose that that was the hon. Member's intention. I have been urged to support the exemption of building societies upon the ground that they consist very largely of working men. I am astonished to hear that argument put forward, because it amounts to this, that working men may, under certain conditions, protect themselves at the expense of other working men. It seems to me that that is hopelessly illogical. If we are going to exempt building societies we shall be creating favoured classes, which is a most undesirable thing. This is a war measure brought in in order to deal with what has been demonstrated to be an oppression. We should confine it as far as we possibly can to that, and make it universal when once we have fixed the type of house to which it should apply. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to resist any suggestion that he should whittle down the value of the Bill by excluding building societies.

The reason I did not rise to take part in. this Debate as soon as the Amendment had been moved was the reason I gave in my remarks earlier in the afternoon. We have been impressed with the case of building societies which seemed to require further investigation, and it seemed to us that it is investigation of a kind that can only be got during the Debate on the Committee stage of a Bill like this. That is to say, the views of the Government are the views which have been expressed by more than one speaker, namely, that this is an emergency Bill, that the powers contained in this Bill are only intended to deal with a difficulty which exists during the War and for the period of the War. The view was expressed by an hon. and learned Gentleman just now, with great force and power, that we are dealing with a particular class of property and with a particular class of tenants and property owners in this Bill, for the reason I have given, and it certainly is invidious and it seems to us to be extremely difficult to draw a distinction between one class of lender and another where they are all, to a very large entent, in the same category.

We are told that unless some protections are adopted building societies will come to an end. I confess that that case has not been made out to us. We were impressed by the statements made and the source from which they came, but we could not find evidence to justify us in believing that they were really well-founded fears, and that they were not rather anxieties consequent upon the production of novel legislation of this kind. I think the Committee will agree that the Debate, so far as it has proceeded, has been entirely in one direction. In saying that, do not let me be thought to minimise in any way the valuable speeches made by the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment and one other speaker who supported the exclusion of the building societies. The general tendency of the Debate, however, has been that there is not sufficient justification for the exclusion of building societies, and that there is not sufficient distinction between them and other lenders or owners of houses to justify us in exempting them from the operations of the Bill. On the whole the conclusion we have come to is to advise the Committee not to accept the Amendment. In any case this would not be the proper place for the change to be made. If it is necessary, and if the Committee should decide to give this protection, it would come in at a later place in the Bill. I hope that if the subject is raised again at a later stage it will not be with a view to taking the whole discussion over again. It seemed to us to be more convenient to take it now. On the whole I think the line of safety and of justice lies in adhering to the Bill as it stands. Of course, the Government do not pretend for a moment that there will not be injustices or wrongs or hardships to some people. In the operations of a Bill like this it seems to be inevitable that you must probably have some hardship. All we can do is to try, as we have honestly tried, to remove the greatest amount of hardships, and that we believe we are doing. Our object is not to conciliate or to annoy, but to try to do justice and to keep our measures on an even keel. It is in that spirit that I think it is desirable that we should stand by the Bill as it is and not attempt to make an exemption which is considered to be dangerous and difficult.

I had not intended to intervene in this Debate, but as no Irish Member has spoken and I have had experience as a director of a building society I should like to state, as a result of my experience, that I think this Amendment ought not to be accepted. Statements have been made about the amount of percentage which is given to the depositors. So far as I know the amount of percentage given to depositors in a building society is generally over 4 or 4½ per cent., and therefore, that being so, they would not be in a worse position in regard to the War Loan than other persons.

An HON. MEMBER dissented.

At any rate that is my experience, and I know that in the building societies of which I have had experience the depositors were always paid more than 4 per cent. In most well-managed building societies there are certain rules and regulations laid down in regard to depositors withdrawing money. They are not allowed to withdraw money unless there is a sufficient sum in the hands of the building society, and then they are obliged to take it according to the order in which it is drawn. I would suggest to the hon. Member who moved this Amendment that in face of the declaration made by the President of the Local Government Board and the general tenour of the Debate it would be advisable to withdraw this Amendment and let us get on to the remainder of the Bill. There is a great deal to be done in connection with this matter, and I hope that no one will endeavour to draw out the Debate to an inordinate length, because we want to get this Bill passed as soon as possible.

After the speech of the right hon. Gentleman I thought that there would probably be no good end to be served by intervening in the Debate had it not been for the closing words of his speech indicating that the right hon. Gentleman felt that there was substance in this Amendment, and that its object might probably be met in some other direction. I rise to support the Amendment, and whether the result can be attained by this Amendment or in some other equally effective way is a point absolutely immaterial. I have been for many years thoroughly conversant with the working of building societies in the North of England, and I say, after long consideration and the fullest deliberation, that the passing of this Bill in its present form will cause widespread calamity throughout industrial portions of this country. I will try to justify that statement. This Bill is avowedly brought in to prevent injustice; it is avowedly brought in to prevent extortions. It is intended to prevent extortionate persons from using the present conditions to extract increased amounts for rent or interest on money borrowed. But you must differentiate between a building society and an ordinary lender of money. In the former case the society is both lender and borrower, and the very men who are lenders and borrowers have in their own hands the power to control conditions relating to interest as well as every detail of the management of the society, and if there be any attempt on the part of those who are in office to use their powers in regard to interest to an extortionate degree, the men themselves who are borrowers and lenders have the full power to control everything and prevent this, the only end for which this Bill is designed, from being attained.

As an illustration I may mention a building society, the deposits in which are possibly a round million pounds, and the borrowers of which run into scores of thousands. These men buy or build, principally buy, small house and small shop property, running into a cost price of from £200 to £300, up to £1,500 or £1,600, and even possibly approaching £2,000. They borrow upon that four-fifths, and sometimes rather more, of the value of the property. In numbers of these cases the very men who have borrowed are the very men who are providing the money which is lent out. A man buys a property and enters into an obligation that for thirteen, eighteen, or perhaps twenty years, he will pay so much per month in repayment of the amount borrowed, and the interest on it. During the whole of that period he makes those repayments regularly, but wherever his circumstances admit, it often happens —this is due to the varying conditions of industry—that in times of prosperity he not only has his borrower's account open, but he opens a second account, an investor's account, and into that he is paying the accumulations of his savings, over and above the amount that he has to pay in extinguishment of his borrowing. I could give to this Committee cases of hundreds of men who have actually borrowed money, which, in effect, may be said to be their own money. The danger of the Bill is that you are stopping the source of income to a large extent by limiting the power of the society to regulate its own affairs in regard to the rates that should be charged on the one hand, but on the other you are leaving open the rights of those who are investing or depositing members to call in their money as and when they think fit, And as this Government, by the rates of interest which it is offering, is tempting these very men to go to the building societies and withdraw their money to put it into War Loans, so you have this situation, and I assure the right hon. Gentleman that this is not simply a fanciful picture of what may happen, but is a conviction of the strong probability of what will happen—that you are bringing upon large parts of the country the possibility of calamity, the extent of which you cannot measure. It is as if a man were to take a crowbar and drive it through because he wants to make a hole and never realise how much he may smash in this effort to attain his object.

Whatever way this will be met the one point which I want to impress on the Government is that building societies of this nature are entirely distinct from individual lenders such as are intended to be dealt with under this Bill, and that within their own hands they have the power to regulate the management of their own affairs, and the rates of interest which are charged. It has been said that the danger which we foreshadowed of investors withdrawing their money is not a real danger, because building societies can prevent that withdrawal. They can, prevent this only to the extent of requiring—the soundest building societies do not require it, though they have the power— notice to be given before the money is repaid. The notice at the utmost is only for a short time. It varies from seven days in the case of small amounts to a month for a larger amount, and in some cases three months, and for still larger amounts it may go up to six months, and the utmost protection that they have for themselves is the power of requiring this notice. In a building society in the North of England no less a sum than £200,000 was withdrawn in readiness for the War Loan, and had not the managers of that society foreseen this probability and been prepared by calling in some of their investments and some of their reserve funds, the difficulty would have arisen then. The difficulty will, of course, be accentuated by this, and you must bear in mind that it is increased still further wherever these building societies, as many of them have, have investments in what are termed trustee securities, as it is practically impossible to realise those securities today to meet a sudden call. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will see his way to accept this Amendment or in some other way deal with this practical difficulty.

I do not want to multiply words over this Debate. The President of the Local Government Board sees this difficulty in various aspects. It is one that concerns 300,000 borrowers, with £66,000,000 of capital. The right hon. Gentleman says that this might be raised again in another part of the Bill. We who feel the risk of great injustice being done to a wonderful organisation for the creation of working class dwellings would like him to indicate more clearly where he thinks would be the best and most convenient point to raise this again. Otherwise we might have a series of sporadic Amendments all through the Bill with a great waste of time, and we do not wish to have that.

I desire to reply to the question of the hon. Gentleman (Sir W. Essex) and also reply to the hon. Member (Mr. Middlebrook), who raised what is to some extent a new point in this Debate, because this is the first time it has been stated that the argument applies especially to loans made by building societies to their own members. As regards those made to strangers, of which I take it many cases still occur, they, of course, stand in a different position.

May I explain to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that within my experience—I cannot say if it is universal all over England—those borrowers to whom the right hon. Gentleman refers as strangers become members to qualify them to borrow when they are making the application to borrow, and they must do so before they can borrow? They thereby become members of the society, and it is only to members that the building societies do advance the money.

I know of some cases myself, and I believe that there are very many, in which the loans are made to strangers. As regards the loans to members, what the hon. Gentleman says is quite true, that to some extent the same persons are both lenders and borrowers. That is to say, those who borrow the money are themselves in many cases shareholders or members of the society. It is quite true that those cases stand on a special footing, because, of course, you do not want to injure men of the very class whom this Bill is intended to protect. I quite conceive that a different case might be made as regards loans made to members from that which would apply in the case of other loans. There are two words of qualification. One is this, that in very many cases of loans by building societies the members are members who themselves are in occupation of the house. They have bought the house. The Bill does not apply to those houses at all, because they are not let. Therefore they do not come within the terms of the Bill. That alone will reduce the number of cases. The second observation is that in many cases, I suppose in most of those cases, the money lent is repayable by instalments spread over a number of years, for principal and interest, and often of equal amount from year to year. There is on the Paper a Government Amendment which would exempt from the Bill mortgages of that kind, and I think that if that Amendment is carefully studied it will be found to meet a great many of the cases to which this is directed. Therefore, while hon. Gentlemen are entitled to consider the point and raise it again, I hope that they will bear in mind the two observations which I have made. In reference to the point at which the question may be raised again, may I direct attention to the Amendment on Clause 3 to insert a new Sub-section (5) at the end of the Clause? That is a ponit at which the question might be raised. Bearing in mind what I have said, I think that the Committee will realise that the general feeling is that we ought not to pass this Amendment, and I hope that it may be withdrawn.

In reference to the point which has just been referred to by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I hope that any Clause or Amendment dealing with this matter will be of general effect, and not confined to building societies in the terms of this Amendment. There is a society, a co-operative society, whose operations have been brought to my notice, which lends only to its own members. It has £90,000 out on a thousand mortgages which are in process of repayment, and seeing that it can only lend to members, but that it is not a building society, I thought that in any Amendment which is made such a society should be taken into consideration, and that such Amendment should meet its case.

We were told in the discussion on the previous Amendment, which applied to all classes and all interests, that we were unaware of the dangers amongst which we were moving, and that we should not occupy time; but here we have had a much longer Debate upon an Amendment which deals only with one particular class. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board did not rise to give to the Committee any guidance whatever in regard to our action upon the Amendment; he waited until the Debate had proceeded a considerable time and then rose to give an indication of the policy of the Government which left us in absolute doubt as to the course they were about to pursue. The Solicitor-General has now communicated to the Committee in very clear terms that although this Amendment is not to be accepted now, something very like it will be accepted at a later point—that is to say, that although you cannot at the time consider the broad question of justice as affecting the whole community, the Government is prepared to accept an Amendment relating to a multitudinous and large interest.

That rather confirms what was previously said by the President of the, Local Government Board, that consideration would be given to this question. Are these industrial societies, because they happen to be connected with a particular class, to have privileges at once as mortgagors and mortgagees, and as tenants and as landlords? For that is exactly the result of what has been set forth by the President of the Local Government Board and confirmed by the Solicitor-General. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board told us that his anxiety was to do justice to the largest possible number. I do not think that justice is decided by the largest number. Justice rests upon its own principle, and if the Government are going to decide with reference to great numbers, or the largest interest, or the largest vote-holding class, I think we are likely to come to grief over this Bill and work much more mischief than good, for it would be a very dangerous principle on which to drive through this Bill, because of the injustices that might be done to a very large class, though it may not have so large a vote holding strength as that class whose support the Government appear to be only too anxious to secure.

I take it that this Amendment is to exclude building societies from the operation of this Act; that is, in other words, to give them the right to charge increased rate of interest to their borrowers. I cannot see that it does anything else. I happen to have in a part of my Constituency a good many people who are not in the position of having their rents raised by their landlords, but are in the happy position, as some Members would call it, of having their rents reduced. But their rents are being reduced because they are not in a position to pay them; as they have been good tenants in the past their landlords have reduced them. I allude to Cleethorpes, a prosperous and populous seaside resort before the War, but since the War it has not been prosperous; in fact, it may be within the knowledge of some Members of this House that the Canadian Government have made a grant of £150,000 for the relief of the East Coast watering places, and a certain amount has been apportioned to Cleethorpes. It has been apportioned on the distinct understanding that the landlords shall be prepared to meet the tenants in regard to their claims. This they have been ready and willing to do. I have in mind the case of a man in Cleethorpes who got some money from one of the permanent building societies. The building society gave him an agreement in writing that so long as he made a monthly payment of £l 12s. for nineteen years and seven months the property would become his own, after having paid off principal and interest. Since the War the rent of one or two houses was reduced, and he has borrowed money to meet that from this building society, and he has done it to retain some good tenants.

But now the building society comes along and give him six months' notice that unless he is prepared to pay an increased rate of interest, they will be obliged to foreclose. That is a. case which I think this Bill was meant to cover. It is not only one case, for in Grimsby and Cleethorpes the great majority of the houses of working classes are built through building societies. They generally run these building societies by paying so much a week. If they are going to build 100 houses, say, they pay so much a week per member, and eventually they build twenty or thirty houses, as they get money in hand. Of course, it is to the advantage of everybody concerned that the interest paid should be as little as possible, and that everybody should keep up his subscription. But, in the other case, when they get so far with their payments, and have got the house paid off except perhaps only £100 left on, they go to the permanent building society and borrow the rest of the money at about 5 per cent. interest, and, in so many years, it is paid off, principal and interest. This Amendment endeavours, I take it, to take these building societies out of the operation of this Bill, and I can only say that, if this Committee allows that, it is going to do a very great injustice to a very large number of people in the country. As there seems a disposition on the part of the House to reject this Amendment, I appeal to the hon. Member who moved it to withdraw it. I feel sure that the feeling of the House is that a much greater injustice would be done by the inclusion of this Amendment than can arise from its withdrawal.

After the speech of the Solicitor-General, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On a point of Order. Will the fact that the Amendment has been withdrawn preclude the question from being raised again, as stated by the Solicitor-General?

No. I gather that the withdrawal of the Amendment covers the next three Amendments on the Paper.

In regard to the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division (Mr. Barnes), the point which it raises is dealt with in a Government Amendment later on the same subject, and standing in the name of the Solicitor-General. I think that would be the Amendment on which to raise the point contained in the Amendment of the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division.

The hon. Gentleman can either move to amend the Government Amendment or to add to it. The Amendment standing in the name of the hon Member for Leith (Mr. Currie), I think, is all right and can be moved, but it should be moved in a slightly different form.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "that" ["Provided that"], to insert the words, "this Sub-section shall not apply to any increase of rent which does not raise the sum to more than 5 per cent. higher than the standard rent, nor to any increase of the interest not in excess of ½ per cent. per annum."

I move this Amendment in the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Leith, and it is in a somewhat different form from that which appears on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member.

Is my hon. Friend excluding the last portion of the Amendment as to six months' notice?

6.0 P.M.

I leave that out, and I will read it again: "this Sub-section shall not apply to any increase of rent which does not raise the sum to more than 5 per cent. higher than the standard rent, nor to any increase of interest not in excess of ½ per cent. per annum." There I stop. I have a vague hope that perhaps I may obtain the consent of the right hon. Gentleman to the first part of this Amendment, and I have that hope for this reason: The right hon. Gentleman has told us that he proposes to move later on, on behalf of the Government, an Amendment which will provide that where an increase of rent has taken place in order to meet an increase of rates that that increase may be made. I have moved this Amendment merely as to an increase of rent not exceeding 5 per cent. on pre-war rents in order to meet the case of increased cost of repairs. This would not bring any money into the pocket of the landlord, but it would enable him to execute ordinary repairs, which are very necessary to the comfort and health of the tenant. Everyone knows that at the present time the cost of building materials has increased by about 25 per cent.

I did not want to overstate the case in any way. In addition to that, the wages of masons, carpenters, painters and decorators, and all others concerned, have increased considerably. It follows that unless some provision of this kind is made either the landlord will not do the repairs or the rent will be decreased below the pre-war standard. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not want to do that. His object, I take it, is to prevent an increase of rent above the pre-war standard, which would go into the pockets of the landlords. I come to the question of mortgage interest, and there I am not quite so certain of persuading my right hon. Friend to agree. I believe I noticed during the last Debate a certain disposition on the part of my right hon. Friend to make some concession to a certain class. I hope we are not going to make any more concessions to classes under this Bill. Whatever concessions we make must apply to everybody affected by the Bill. When the Government pays 5 per cent. it seems to be absurd that the mortgagee cannot increase his rate of interest. We know perfectly well that a few years ago when money was cheap the mortgagor took advantage of the fact, and in the same way the mortgagee ought to be allowed to take advantage of the rise in the value of money. It may be said that this is a time of war and, therefore, this particular case does not matter. I had a case brought to my knowledge the other day of a woman of about seventy who has a sum of £600 which is invested on mortgage at a comparatively low rate of interest. She has only the £24 received from that mortgage to live on, and she has to pay all the increases necessitated by the rise in wages, which hon. Members opposite or below the Gangway are so anxious to advocate, and she has to pay the increased price of the various necessities of life. She will not be allowed to make any increase on the yield from her £600, while if she could invest it in Treasury Bills her income would be £30. I think this matter ought to be seriously considered, and with regard to the first part of my Amendment I hope my right hon. Friend will be prepared to meet me on what is a very small point.

I am afraid, although I have great sympathy with the views expressed by my hon. Friend in the earlier part of his remarks, that it is really not practical to accept a proposal of this kind, and which stands on quite a different footing from my Amendment, with which I will subsequently deal. This is a proposal to allow a moderate increase in rent in respect of the cost of repairs. My hon. Friend has perfectly truly said more than once that this Bill is designed to remedy an evil and at the same time seeks to do justice all round. I do not know what he meant by his reference to a tendency on the part of the Government to deal with it as class legislation. I do not think we have done anything which indicates our intention to favour one class against another. On the contrary, my hon. Friend has shown that any attempt of that kind on our part would be predestined to failure, because many of the owners of those houses are just as poor as the tenants who occupy them. It really is not a question of class at all. It is a question of trying to do justice all round to meet what is an admitted evil. The suggestion here is that we should allow a fixed sum, not exceeding 5 per cent. over the standard rent, in respect of the cost of repairs. Is it not inevitable, if we make an Amendment of that kind, that a rise in rent to that extent would become universal? I have made it my business, in the investigations which I conducted before introducing this Bill, to ascertain so far as I could what is the real truth in regard to the question of repairs. It is quite true that the cost of repairs has gone up by 30, or probably nearer 40, per cent., but that does not mean that repairs are being carried out now by the owners of property in the way in which they were being carried out before the War, and for two reasons. It is so not alone because of their cost, but also because there are not the men to do the work, and I am convinced that neither owners nor occupiers desire to see men doing work connected with repairs of their houses or their maintenance who ought to be engaged in much more important work either in the trenches or in the munition factories at home. That general feeling has undoubtedly produced the result that there are not men available to do the work. Therefore it is not correct to say, supposing a particular sum was the normal outlay in respect of repairs before the War, that that sum, plus 33 or 40 per cent., is the outlay which is now being incurred.

Take the case where the amount of repairs varies considerably, which is the universal case, in one class of building you will require a great deal more repairs than another, and you propose by this Amendment to give the same opportunity for increasing the rent, whether the money has been spent on repairs or not. Therefore you really would not be doing justice even by the Amendment which comes from the fount of all justice, my hon. Friend the Member for the City, and even his counsel of perfection would not really be fair all round. In regard to a proposal to allow of ½ per cent. increase on mortgages, I am not prepared on behalf of the Government to give Parliamentary sanction to any increase at all. My hon. Friend has said why should not mortgagees be allowed to increase the rate of interest in proportion to the price of money, and some hon. Friends behind me spoke of building societies and of money invested in war loans. We hear a great deal about money in war loans, but I am afraid the real object often is to increase the income. I do not say that that is not a natural and a right thing to do, provided it is done legitimately. But surely we are all suffering during the War in respect of loss of income, and it is very remarkable, in connection almost alone with mortgages, that you are able to increase your income, and not only to maintain your income before the War, but to so increase it as to meet the net loss incurred in consequence of extra expenditure. I do not think on grounds of justice that this proposal can be justified. I do not think it is desirable to introduce this variation, because what is intended to be an exception would become the rule. I am quite convinced that in the majority of cases the repairs will not be executed during the War, but will be postponed till afterwards. Therefore, on all the grounds, I hope the Committee will not accept the Amendment, and I further hope that it will not be found necessary to press it or debate it at any great length.

I do not quite agree with the Amendment as it stands. I think an increase of 5 per cent. would be absolutely inadequate to meet the cost of repairs. Nor do I agree with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that repairs are being allowed to go into abeyance until after the War is over. I think if he knew a little more about the management of this kind of house property he would know perfectly well that the essential thing in regard to its management is to keep it in good repair, and that you could not possibly allow the repair of small house property to stand for perhaps two or three years and still maintain it in habitable condition. I do not believe the local authorities would allow you to do so. Their requirements are becoming more and more stringent, and if we adopted the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman and simply suspended all repairs, we should very soon, in most localities, have the public authority down upon us. What I want the right hon. Gentleman to do is to meet us to some extent as to this question of repairs. By an Amendment he has put down he has met the owners of this small house property very fairly as regards increases and rates. I think some small concession should be made as regards repairs, and the nature of that concession is indicated by some Amendments later on. As my right hon. Friend has said, there is no doubt about the fact that most of the owners of this class of property are themselves poor men; the majority do not belong to the wealthy classes at all, but are quite small men, many of whom have invested their savings in this class of property. It seems to me to be absolutely inconsistent and wrong that they should not be allowed a fair return on this property on the capital sum they have invested after all outgoings have been allowed for. There are Amendments on the Paper to meet this point, and I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to adopt them or some modification of them. I am not wedded to 6 per cent.

I am afraid the hon. Member will destroy his chance of proceeding with those Amendments if he debates them now.

I think it is extremely unfortunate that no allowance is made in respect of repairs. If you make no allowance for repairs you may take it as a certainty that so long as this Bill is in operation practically no repairs, or at any rate the merest minimum, such as keeping the premises water-tight, will be done. The consequence will be that a large amount of new slum property will be created in all the populous working-class areas. It is absolutely contrary to the best interests of the housing of the working classes that that should be done, and that is why I think the Government have made the greatest possible mistake in making no allowance for repairs.

I did not base my Amendment entirely on the question of repairs, although that was one of the chief arguments. It would be impossible to deal only with repairs, because you would have in each case to investigate whether or not the repairs had been carried out, and that would involve an immense machinery. Therefore I put in the very moderate amount of 5 per cent., for the very reason that has just been advanced— that although in many cases an increase of perhaps 6d. a week would be made without any corresponding increase in repairs, the fact that an increase could be made would probably result in the repairs being carried out. It is quite impossible to drop repairs altogether, and landlords as a rule do not desire to do so. As to mortgages, I think my right hon. Friend is a little mistaken in saying that mortgagees are in an advantageous position as compared with those who adopt other forms of investment. Take the example of Treasury Bills. Only five or six months ago the Government were issuing Treasury Bills at 3½ per cent., and the people who took those Bills are now able to get 5 per cent. for their money. I do not see why, since the Government is compelled to pay more at the end of the term for which the Treasury Bills were issued, the same principle should not apply to men who have lent money on mortgage. It is quite a different thing with people who have bought stock. I cannot withdraw the Amendment, as I attach considerable importance to it, but I do not intend to put the Committee to the trouble of a Division, because I do not think I have many supporters, although, as a rule, I find that the smaller the minority the greater the chance that their view is right.

I would point out that the property owners themselves, speaking through the mouth of their chairman, made no appeal for any allowance on account of repairs. I was present at a conference attended by Mr. Evans and representatives of some provincial property owners' associations where, before going to see the right hon. Gentleman, they agreed that no claim of this kind should be put forward. If the general body of property owners do not ask for this I do not think the Committee need grant it.

They are a small association somewhere in Finsbury, and they do not represent anybody's views but their own.

Members must have little experience of local authorities if they think that this class of property can go on without repairs. The local authorties would compel repairs to be done, and even if they did not it would be necessary for the maintenance of the property. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will resist the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

With regard to the next Amendment—to leave out paragraph (i.)—I have to inform the hon. Members in whose names it stands that the Government has handed in an Amendment on this paragraph consequential on the decision of the Committee to leave out Clause 1. It may, therefore, not be necessary for them to move their Amendment.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph (i.), if for no other reason than. to get an explanation from the Government of the statement just made by the Chairman. The Bill is made the more unintelligible by the fact that Clause 1 has been thrown over by the Government, as there is now no prescribed area and no Order in Council. By this Amendment I propose to widen the Bill by including arrears. If the evil is to be dealt with it ought to be dealt with in a thorough fashion from the time immediately after the War when rents were raised against the tenants. If the Committee delete this paragraph there will be only the two-provisos.

I am not sure that my hon. Friend apprehends the practical difficulty that would arise if the Government accepted his Amendment. This Bill proposes to be retrospective in so far as the action taken by owners in raising their rents is concerned as from the time when the War broke out But it does not propose to be retrospective in respect of payments which have accrued or become due for this reason. It is quite obvious that you could not simply give to people who withheld their rents the right not to pay them unless you included the right to recover by those who had made the payments. You could not give relief to the man who from the legal point of view had acted improperly and withhold relief from the man who had borne the same burden of injustice but had paid. To enact that there should be a right of recovery all over the country in respect of those rents, many of which are quite small sums, would, I think, be to invite a controversy of an extremely difficult character which would not be worth the trouble and prejudice to which it would give rise. What we propose is that the Bill should not be retrospective before the date given here, and in order to bring the Clause into conformity with the Bill as amended by the omission of Clause 1 I propose to move consequential Amendments making the paragraph read:

"This Sub-section shall not apply to any rent or mortgage interest which accrued due before the 25th day of November, 1915."

"That is the date on which the Bill was introduced. It would cover all the cases -existing at that time, but it would not be retrospective in the sense proposed by the hon. Member for Glasgow. I hope the Committee will think that that is on the whole a fair compromise.

Amendment negatived.

The next Amendment stands in the name of the hon. Member for Chatham, but I do not quite understand what is its object.

I beg to move in paragraph (i.) after the word "due" ["which accrued due"], to insert the words "on or."

This is one of three Amendments standing in my name, and the object of the three Amendments is to make the paragraph read

"… which accrued due on or before the 24th day of December, 1915."

The only difference between the Amendment outlined by the right hon. Gentleman and my own is to substitute the 24th December for the 25th November. There is only a very short period of delay between the 25th November and the 24th December. We all know that ordinarily mortgaged interest is payable on fixed dates, and 24th December is a day very commonly fixed for that payment. Rents become due on the usual quarter days. The result of my Amendment is that supposing you get a mortgage transaction or a rate of interest, you would not have to go into a calculation as to how many days' interest you have to allow under the increased rate or proposed charge. In other words, the person, it seems to me, will have to pay the increased rate of interest up to the 25th day of November, and the tenant will have to pay the increasel rent up to the same day. After that day they start on a fair footing.

The effect of the Amendment on rent would be to postpone the whole operation of the Bill for a month. That would not serve our purpose at all. As to the second point, mortgage interest is sometimes made payable on quarter days and sometimes at other times, and there does not seem to be any difficulty in making an apportionment.

I regret that the Solicitor-General cannot see his way to accept my Amendment. It is obvious that people will have to pay their rent at the increased rate until this Bill becomes law. You are reopening a number of payments which have been made and interest which will have been paid, and you have made no provision in the Bill to enable anybody to recover it. Are you going to encourage lawsuits for a question of four weeks? The President of the Local Government Board made an admirable answer to the request made to him by the hon. Member for, I think, one of the Divisions of Edinburgh, that when you reopen these questions you create difficulties and feeling between people. I am only asking in the Amendment I propose to follow in that line. It will be a great relief to tenants and also to mortgagors. Surely a matter of four weeks is a matter of no moment when you are going to get relief so great by this Bill? I ask whether, in these circumstances, for the sake of peace and for the sake of making this measure work comfortably and harmoniously so far as it can between the tenants and the owners, the right hon. Gentleman should consider whether or not he could not accept the date I have put forward?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question as to the landlords who six months ago put up their rents which the tenants refused to pay. Can the landlord recover that rent from the tenant? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] Supposing the rent was 10s. per week and was increased to 12s., and the tenant refused to pay the extra 2s., can the landlord recover that, even though no agreement has been entered into?

That is a very important point. A contract does not become a contract between the landlord and tenant merely because the landlord tells the tenant he is going to increase the rent. The tenant must agree to the increase in rent before the thing becomes a contract. In many cases in Glasgow and elsewhere the tenants definitely refused to accept any increase in their rents. Will anything in this Bill make it possible for the landlord now to try to get back from the tenant that money merely because he announced an increase of rent, although he was not able to secure any bargain between himself and the tenant?

Unless the tenant agrees with the landlord to pay the increased rent, there is no agreement. But it is quite clear that if the tenant does not pay the landlord can evict him. That, I submit to the Committee, as being perfectly clear. It is quite obvious the landlord can evict him.

The tenant is therefore in this position: he either has to pay the increased rent or, as an alternative, he has to leave the house. But I imagine that certainly in those crowded areas we are discussing the demand for houses is so great that I have not the slightest doubt the tenant would, rather than suffer, prefer to make that agreement with the landlord.

Why not make the date Christmas Day so as to give those concerned a Christmas gift? 25th December will be a much more happy day to bring this into operation than 25th November.

Amendment negatived.

Amendments made: In paragraph (i.), leave out the words "such date (not being earlier than)."

Leave out the words "as may as respects any area be prescribed by the Order in Council applying this Act to that area."—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, in paragraph (i.), after the word "fifteen" ["November, nineteen hundred and fifteen"], to insert the words "or to any rent where the net income received by the landlord does not exceed 6 per cent. on the capital invested."

The point in this Amendment has not been covered. It is an Amendment to provide that where the net income from any rent received by the landlord does not exceed 6 per cent. on the capital invested the Act should not apply. This is entirely different to the Amendment I moved before, and I had hoped it was one which might be received with some favour by the House. No one will deny that 6 per cent. is not an out of the way rate of interest to receive upon property of the description with which we are dealing. I am not quite sure whether it would not be better to move the Amendment in some slightly altered form, say, that of the Amendment, which follows, of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham (Sir F. Lowe). This provides for the County Court to determine whether or not the rents do yield more than 6 per cent. on the capital invested. I have received a great many letters upon this point from property owners all over the country. Though I am endeavouring to meet the wishes of those people whose property is being dealt with, I do not move this Amendment merely because of that, but because it is a fair and honest Amendment to meet a just grievance. The objection to it is that it would not meet every case. We cannot, perhaps, deal with every case, or provide against every possible contingency, but we can endeavour to do so. I think it is fair that those who receive an income of not more than 6 per cent. should be dealt with as I suggest. I like the idea as to the County Court judge being the tribunal to whom cases should be referred. It is expeditious and cheap, and one which would meet the point in question. However, I must admit, Mr. Whitley, that my efforts so far have not been met with that success that I humbly think they ought to receive. I can only put it down to the fact that I have not the gift of presenting a case in the way my right hon. Friend has. But I hope he will remember that, and will make allowances for the bad way in which I have presented my case to the Committee. It is not because the case is bad, but because of the mover's inability to present it efficiently.

I am not quite clear whether the hon. Baronet is moving his own Amendment or that of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Sir Francis Lowe).

I beg pardon. It is again an instance that my powers of speech are not what they ought to be. What I desired to say was that, whilst I was moving my own Amendment, there were possibly words in my hon. Friend's Amendment which, if inserted in mine, would make it better. But as I am very much afraid that the right hon. Gentleman is not going to accept my Amendment, I will not take up the time of the Committee by altering it now. If my right hon. Friend said he would accept my Amendment, I might ask leave to amend it.

My hon. Friend has rightly anticipated the decision I have to announce on behalf of the Government with regard to his Amendment, but I can assure him it is not because his Amendment has lost in force by his advocacy. Quite the contrary; it is really because his Amendment, from the point of view of those who desire to see this Bill carried into law, is absolutely destructive. It is one of those innocent Amendments for which my hon. Friend has so often been responsible in the course of his long and distinguished career by which he hopes that the Government, temporarily deprived of its powers of observation, may accept, knowing well that if they do accept it, it will carry with it absolute destruction. I can faithfully say that if this Amendment were carried this Bill would be rendered absolutely purposeless, for the reason—and no one knows better than my hon. Friend—that an extraordinary vista of litigation is opened up when you invite one man to establish the propositions that he has spent a certain sum on his property, and that he is not receiving in return for it an adequate rate, and on the establishment of those propositions is made dependent the whole operation of this Bill. It really would destroy the whole thing. I do not think my hon. Friend really intends that, although, of course, it would be quite consistent with his attitude; but it is obvious the Government could not agree to it. We could not agree to any of these fanciful suggestions, the object of which is to arrive at some escape for a particular class of property. There is no comparison, I venture to say, between this and the rates question. The rates question dealt with in the Amendment I have on the Paper is really quite distinct. You are really opening up possibilities of litigation. You must have a tribunal. It would make the Clause inoperative. I do not think it is workable, and I do not think it would be just.

I am afraid that, supposing this Amendment is voted upon, my Amendment would be ruled out of order, because it is very much on the same lines. Therefore I think I had better say what I have to say on this Amendment. I must say I much prefer my own Amendment, because I think it is much more complete. It first of all defines the grounds on which a man should be entitled to raise his rent, and it also sets forth the tribunal to which appeal should be made in case of dispute as to whether his capital does yield him 6 per cent. or not. I cannot see, for the life of me, why proposals of this kind should be destructive of the general operation of the Bill. I do not think it is anything of the kind. Everybody who knows anything about small house property knows that in valuing it any valuer would allow a certain amount for repair—15 per cent., 20 per cent., or some other sum—and the County Court would be able to take into consideration, if appealed to, whether the sum proposed to be allowed by the owner of this kind of property for repairs was a fair and moderate sum or whether it was not, having regard to the increased cost of materials and labour, added to the increase of rates. It would be very easy to discover whether the owner of the property was making a fair or an excessive demand. We heard, when this Bill was introduced, that it was only aimed at excessive increases of rents, and that it was not aimed at those who wish to increase their rents to a fair and moderate extent.

I want the Committee and the right hon. Gentleman to bear in mind that, as I pointed out on a previous Amendment, this class of property is mainly and chiefly owned by persons of small means. At the present time, owing to these increases to which I have referred, I believe that many owners are not getting more than 2 or 3 per cent. on their money. Can it be said that the savings of a working-class person invested in this kind of property are adequately remunerated if he only gets 2 or 3 per cent. on his money? The percentage that is asked for by this Amendment is not a large one, but if the right hon. Gentleman thinks it is too large it will be quite possible to reduce it to 5 per cent., which would be much more satisfactory than leaving the Bill as it stands. Nor, in my opinion, would it be inflicting any hardship on those tenants, because all of them are extremely well-to-do at the present time. They are getting 50 per cent. more wages, or twice the wages they were betting before, and it seems to me that it would be no hardship on them to pay a fair rent for their houses. Why should they have a, subsidy from anyone, if they are not paying the rent for the accommodation in their houses they ought to pay? If you are letting them off with any cheaper rents you are giving a subsidy, and why should they have a subsidy more than any other class of the community? I know perfectly well that the increased rate of Income Tax has really nothing to do with the question, because the landlord is supposed to pay that, but it has indirectly to do with the question, because the great rise in Income Tax is partly accounted for by higher wages being paid to the very workmen who occupy these houses. Much of that money is going to the workers in munitions and so forth, who are in many cases the tenants of these houses. I say on all grounds, therefore, this Amendment is worthy of more consideration than it has received. I deny altogether that it is destructive of the Bill, but I am perfectly certain that without any litigation, or without any excess of litigation, the County Court might decide between any question of landlord and tenant.

Amendment negatived.

The Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman for Ealing (Mr. Nield) will come better on Clause 3.

I beg to move, in paragraph (ii), after the word "dwelling-house" ["alteration of a dwelling-house"], to insert the words "(not including expenditure on decoration or repairs)."

I think there is certainly one point on which it is desirable that the Government should give us the benefit of their advice. I must confess, in spite of the definition now added by the learned Solicitor-General, I am not quite clear what class of cases these words cover. The Solicitor-General will correct me if he thinks my view is wrong, but I think it is clear that, under this wording, at any rate, a landlord would be permitted to pass on to the tenant to the extent of 6 per cent of capital expenditure in respect of sums expended by reason of notice served upon him by the medical officer of health. I do not know whether that point has occurred to the Government, but I do think it is one requiring consideration. Where you get the case, particularly of a slum landlord who owns property which is insanitary, who is served with a sanitary notice calling upon him to do any of the various things which, of course, are within the power of the medical officer of health, I think it would be very improper that you should, at any rate, generally permit him to pass, to the extent of 6 per cent., that expenditure on to the tenant. I only raise that point for the consideration of the Government. I do not wish to say that in no case shall it, or a portion of it, be demanded, but I think it would be very dangerous to enable a landlord to pass on 6 per cent. of that sanitary alteration to the tenant.

In support of what the hon. and learned Gentleman said I would say there is an even stronger case. Take the case of notices from the local authority relating, not to sanitary matters, but to structural safety. Orders relating to old houses are exceedingly common, and are certainly so in Dublin. The position which the Government take up in this Amendment is that where a landlord is called upon to do improvements which are absolutely necessary to keep the house habitable or safe, he can pass it on to the tenant. It appears to me that if we have to choose between two kinds of improvements, it would be much more reasonable to make the tenant pay for luxuries such as decorative work than to make him Pay for necessities in the shape of making the house safe or sanitary. I would put it to the right hon. Gentleman that the position taken in this Amendment is perfectly absurd. The landlord in order to save the lives of his tenants is obliged to make the building right. Really I do not think that the Government have considered this matter, and there is a great deal to be said for striking out the Clause altogether. My first point is in regard to making the house habitable and passing that on to the tenant, but what is suggested does not merely make the house safe but more handsome, and in that case the Bill says he shall not pass that on to the tenant.

7.0 P.M.

Who is going to determine under these circumstances what is properly to be considered an improvement? I have a letter pointing out in a medical report for the borough of Bedford that the provision of a sanitary dustbin is often made the excuse for raising the rent 3d. a week. I think the dangerous word in this Clause is the word "improvement."

I call upon the hon. Member to move his Amendment on that point, and he is not entitled now to go back to that Amendment.

By the qualifying words of the Solicitor-General, you leave this open to the harsh landlord, and this would defeat the intention of the Clause. I should like some assurance that these words will be carefully examined, and if it is seen that there is a danger in that direction the point may be raised at a later period.

This Amendment is really a diminution of the improvements in respect of which the landlord may raise the rent. With regard to the other point which has been raised, I think it will be found rather difficult to distinguish between compulsory and voluntary rebuilding. The work of rebuilding a house under a notice may fairly claim to be on the same footing as improvements made voluntarily by the landlord, and it is difficult to draw the distinction. I do not, however, shut out any proposal in the form of an Amendment, but it must be considered, and I do not think it can be considered on this Amendment.

I regret that the Solicitor-General did not make this explanation when the Amendment was moved. When the Government propose an Amendment in substance I think there should be an explanation given.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

I am not sure whether I have been called upon to move my Amendment on the Paper or the one in manuscript.

I wish to move my Amendment not precisely in the form in which it appears on the scrap of paper.

I cannot allow that. I must really have the Amendment before me in order that I may consider whether it is pertinent or reasonable. I was doing my best in regard to the scrap of paper handed in, and now I find the hon. Member has got a fresh Amendment.

Then I will move my Amendment in the terms contained on the scrap of paper. I beg to move, in paragraph (ii.), after the words "per annum," to insert the words "from the twenty-fifth day of November, 1915." I think I can convince the Committee of the justice and propriety of this Amendment. This para- graph is in favour of the landlord. We are going to allow the landlord, very properly, 6 per cent. interest on money which he may have expended on the improvement or structural alteration of a dwelling-house, and my Amendment is that he should be allowed that rate of interest not, as will be implied, from the date when the improvement or structural alteration was made, but from the 25th of November, 1915, which is the same date that we have assigned in the Clause which affects the tenant in paragraph (i.), where we have enacted that where an increase of rent is illegal and unjustifiable, the tenant should not get the benefit until the 25th of November, 1915. I think we are dealing rather harshly with the tenant who has been the subject of extortion and has paid the increased rent up to the date when this Act was introduced. All I say is that I think what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and if the tenant is not to get the benefit of this Act until the 25th of November, 1915, the landlord, in the provision inserted for his benefit, should not be placed in any better position, and he should only get the benefit which the Act confers from the same date.

I do not think the hon. Member has fully considered the effect of his Amendment. What he wishes to provide is that the interest which may be charged shall run from the 25th of November last. An improvement may be made before or after the 25th of November. If it is made before then, under the Bill as it stands, the interest can only be charged from the 25th. The Bill prevents increases of rent, but it does not affect rent incurred before the 25th of November. Therefore the question of increase of rent can only arise in respect of rents after the 25th of November. The other alternative is in regard to an improvement which may be made after the 25th of November this year, and in that case the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member allows the landlord to have interest from a date before the improvement was made. No doubt many landlords would like that proposal, but that is not what my hon. Friend means.

With regard to the possibility of the landlord who makes an improvement next year ante-dating his interest to the 25th of November this year, I was going to deal with that point by a subsequent Amendment, and that was my intention. As to the point which the Solicitor-General has mentioned, we have now his authority for stating that this benefit cannot accrue to the landlord at 6 per cent. on his previous outlay except from the passing of this Act. I am glad that that is so, and I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman is right. I think with his legal knowledge we shall rest assured that that is the case, and under those circumstances I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

I am not quite sure in regard to the interpretation of this Clause. I wish to put a concrete case before we part with this proviso. Say a landlord has made an improvement in a house between the beginning of the War and the 25th of November, 1915, and has made no increase of the rent during that period. Under this Bill he is entitled to make an increase of rent to the extent of 6 per cent. interest on the cost of his improvement. As this proviso stands, will the landlord not be entitled to charge 6 per cent. interest from the date on which the improvement is made?

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph (ii.), to add the words,

"But no rent shall be increased under this Sub-section until a Fellow of the Surveyors' Institute has certified such expenditure, and the landlord has delivered a copy of such certificate to the tenant, together with a month's notice of his intention to increase the rent as provided in this Sub-section."

[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I am a little surprised to hear the derisive greeting from hon. Members to a proposal that this certificate should be signed by a Fellow of the Surveyors' Institute. I take the view that we must not leave it to the landlord to decide whether or not he has made an expenditure which he claims, and which he proposes to pass on to the tenant by way of increased rent. It would be fatal to leave that matter to the landlord to decide, and it is with that in my mind that I consider that this is the best way of ascertaining and obtaining proof that that money has been so expended. It is desirable in a temporary measure, and particularly in a measure of this sort, to avoid the Law Courts wherever possible, and I think it would be an adequate and proper protection to make it necessary that the landlord should obtain a certificate from some Fellow of the Surveyors' Institute as to the expenditure which he claims to have incurred. That is a very simple way of providing for some proof justifying the increase. It would be fatal to allow the landlord to claim this increase without any proof at all, but I think it would be desirable that the obtaining of that proof should be made as simple as possible. I can think of no more simple means than the producing of a certificate of a Fellow of the Surveyors' Institute, who, of course, before he gives such certificate, will examine the structural alteration in respect of which the claim is made.

Then, in the interests of the tenant, I really think that a copy of that certificate ought to be served on him, and that he should at least have one month's notice of the landlord's intention to increase the rent. After all, this is a tenants' protection Bill, but by this Section you are exposing the tenant, whom you obviously set out to protect, to the possibility of the landlord coming forward and making any claim he likes as to the expenditure of money, whether that expenditure is within the definition just moved by the Solicitor-General or not. The landlord can come to his tenant and claim that he has spent this money without giving any proof, and the tenant is obviously helpless. There is no tribunal, or Court, or authority to which he can go. Carry this Amendment, and you do safeguard his interests. Under this Section you give any landlord who has spent money on structural alterations the right to turn away his tenant at a week's notice. That is very dangerous. It is certainly considered dangerous by those who, like myself, approve of the principle of the Bill, and in the interests of the protection of the tenant I say let the onus of proof be on the landlord. Make that proof as simple as you can, make the landlord send that proof to the tenant, and make him give a month's notice. I hope that the Government will accept this Amendment as one moved by one who obviously desires to do what he can to help forward the Bill and who is with the right hon. Gentleman in his desire to offer what protection he can to the tenant.

I appreciate the manner in which my hon. and learned Friend has moved this Amendment, and the only complaint I have to make is that he did not put it on the Paper. It is an Amendment of a rather complicated character and wants carefully studying before it can be adequately dealt with. I endeavoured to follow my hon. and learned Friend, and I understand, first, that he wants to have in some tangible form a statement, certified by somebody that the expenditure has been incurred; and, secondly, that he wants the fact and the amount of the expenditure brought to the notice of the tenant, in order that the tenant may know to what increase he is bound to submit. Those are two points which come fresh to us all. I quite agree that the Amendment deserves consideration, and my right hon. Friend authorises me to say that it shall be considered before the Report stage of the Bill, but it is impossible to accept the words of the Amendment to-day. We want a little time to think them over, and I suggest that my hon. and learned friend should withdraw the Amendment to-day and put it down for the Report stage.

I hope that in reconsidering this matter the Government will consider a still better thing, namely, the dropping of this Sub-section altogether. Every argument made against the Amendment of the hon. Baronet for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) and the hon. Member for Birmingham (Sir F. Lowe) is equally applicable to this Subsection, and everything that could be possibly said in favour of this Sub-section could equally be said in favour of the proposal of those two hon. Gentlemen. I cannot understand why the Government should insist upon this Sub-section whilst objecting to the proposal made by those hon. Members. If their Amendment had been accepted, the tenant before getting the benefit of the Bill would have had to prove something not in his knowledge at all. Supposing a landlord demands an increase of rent and says, "I am only asking 6 per cent. on what I have spent." How can the tenant possibly know what he has spent? Of course, he sees that some improvement has been done, but how can he know that the increase demanded only amounts to 6 per cent. on what has been spent? The Amendment of the hon. Member (Mr. H. Smith) helps the tenant to some extent, because it compels the landlord to put before the tenant a plain statement that he has spent so much, and that what he is claiming is only 6 per cent. on that amount. Unless the tenant gets that statement, it is perfectly plain that he is left in the darkness. The land- lord makes a demand and says, "It is only 6 per cent. on the cost of the improvement." The tenant says, "I do not think it is." How is it to be fought out? The only way is to take it into Court. The Amendment will give the tenant some help and some proof of what has been done, and it will give him the opinion of some competent person, which will enable him to arrive at a conclusion as to whether the landlord's demand is fair or not. Accordingly, the Amendment, if accepted, will be some mitigation of the objectionable matter inserted in the Bill, but it appears to me that the Government would do better to omit the Sub-section altogether.

The hon. Member who moved the Amendment is too modest about its good qualities. He urged it upon the Government on the ground of his own bona fides. The Amendment has really something in it that might be said on its merits. The difficulty, however, which I wish to point out to the Government is that phrase in the Amendment which brings in the certificate of some Fellow of the Surveyors' Institute. I was hoping, when the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. M. Healy) got up, that he would inform the House whether that was practicable in Ireland. I have a vista before my mind of the poor crofters in the western parts of Kerry and Donegal having to get some certificate from some authority in London.

It is the landlord who has to get the certificate, and it need not be from London.

At any rate these people are located in the cities, and very likely a large amount of difficulty will occur in small country places far removed from the towns. I do not see how it can be worked. I appeal to the Government not to be in a hurry to introduce these professional gentlemen. The hon. Member who is now trying to bring them in was very busy yesterday trying to keep them out of the Excess Profits Tax. I have no doubt that he had this Amendment in his mind. Yesterday he was persuading the House that none of these professional people ought to be paid, and no doubt he had in view the extra emoluments which they are likely to receive.

While the hon. Member's remarks are very humorous, they have no foundation in fact. I never made any speech or gave any vote yesterday.

Well, in the course of the Bill. The hon. Member in the course of the Finance Bill has been very busy endeavouring to keep out the profession, and his memory is in error if he thinks that he did not advocate it, because he did. This is becoming more and more obnoxious to business people. It is quite right that accountants should be brought in at certain points, like auditors, but if you are going, when every little difficulty arises, to bring in some learned and professional man you are going to make your Act a dead letter. Surely some other way can be found to protect the tenant. I do not see any protection for the tenant in this Clause, without at any rate the main idea of the hon. Member's Amendment being incorporated. That is my difficulty. We do not want to go to all this trouble, and then find on some small point, such as estimating the 6 per cent., that the Act will not work. I presume my right hon. Friend has in his mind to consider this matter before the Report stage, and, if he will take all that is good in the Amendment, and leave out this reference to Fellows of the Surveyors' Institute, I may be able to support it.

I do hope that my right hon. Friend will not put in anything about the Surveyors' Institute. If he does, no structural alteration at all can be made. It must be remembered that we are dealing with a small class of property, the greater part of which has cost £250 or £350 each house [An HON. MEMBER: "Much less."] I do not like to exaggerate my statements. Take the case of a small structural alteration, such as putting in a washhouse with a copper. It is a most useful thing to put in, and is one which, as far as I know, every class of tenant in small houses desires. It possibly costs £20, and if you are to go to the office of the Institute of Surveyors—

He must be a fellow of the institute. Then he must come in and certify that £20 has been spent on this particular alteration. It is giving the people an absolute monopoly, because you must not bring in anybody unless he belongs to a particular institute. The result will be that he will probably charge 10 per cent. He comes and charges probably 10 per cent., or £2, for a thing of that sort. Who is going to pay? Of course, it will be the landlord. The tenant will not be paying, and the result will be that nothing will be done.

I understood the Solicitor-General to say that he would gravely consider, between now and the Report stage, this Amendment. I hope he will consider at the same time another effect of this Clause. If the landlord expends a sum of £100 on structural alterations he will, under the words of this Clause, be entitled to an extra £6 a year rent, and that addition to the rent will remove the house from the category of houses with which we are dealing.

Before asking the leave of the Committee to withdraw my Amendment perhaps I may be allowed to reply to some remarks by the Solicitor-General. I agree it is much more desirable that Amendments of this nature should appear on the Paper, but I would remind my right hon. and learned Friend that four and a half hours have elapsed since I handed a copy of the Amendment in at the office, as I did not want to spring it upon anyone. I may be permitted also to say that I have not the slightest interest in the question who should be the authority appointed, and I will gladly accept any suggestion on that point. I hold no brief for surveyors. I appreciate the spirit of the speech of the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth), but I would again tell him that my sole object is to protect the tenant. I want there shall be some proof that the money has been expended, that notice shall be given to the tenant, and that the tenant who objects to the increase of rent shall be protected from being thrown out of the house without notice. I would suggest he should have at least a month's notice. There are the points I beg respectfully to press on the Government. I would ask further whether, if I withdraw my Amendment now, the Government themselves, providing that they are able to give it sympathetical consideration, will not provide a draft Amendment. It is rather difficult to put down another Amendment on the Report stage, and perhaps be called upon to answer fresh points. I submit that there is something in my Amendment, and if it has the sympathetical approval of the Government—if they agree that some such protection ought to be given to the tenant, surely it would be better for them to draft an Amendment which obviously could not be carried without their consent. In asking leave to withdraw the Amendment I wish to notify that, having regard to what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I do not propose to carry it further at this stage.

Leave to withdraw Amendment withheld.

My hon. and learned Friend has done exactly what we expected of him. My right hon. Friend the Solicitor-General did not mean to convey any suggestion that my hon. Friend was to blame. All we wanted to point out was the great inconvenience of putting into the Bill anything in the nature of drastic alterations which have not been made public, not merely to us or to Members of this House but to people outside who may be materially affected by its incorporation in a measure which concerns him closely. Therefore we thought that before such a change is made it should be made public in the manner in which it can be if an Amendment is placed on the Paper. I suggest to the hon. Member that he should put his Amendment, in its present form if he likes, on the Paper for the Report stage, and that will secure that the words which he recommends shall be considered. My right hon. and learned Friend has said on behalf of the Government that it is their intention there should be some clear proof easily forthcoming of the claim which is being made, where it can be done without undue delay or inconvenience, and I am sure that the Government will, between now and the Report stage, consider this question in the light of all the arguments which have been advanced both for and against. If necessary we will put an Amendment down in our own name.

I trust that while the Government may consider the Amendment they will not, for a variety of reasons, accept it. In Scotland we know nothing of the Surveyors' Institute, and the term would mean nothing, I believe, so far as many tenants in England are concerned. I question very much whether a certificate from a Fellow of the Surveyors' Institute would be regarded as a protection by the tenant, seeing that surveyors are, as a rule, almost solely em- ployed by landlords. I, for one, should be very unwilling to make a surveyor's certificate conclusive in a matter of this kind. As the Bill stands, the landlord could not exact the increased rent without going to the County Court. If the hon. and learned Gentleman's proposal is accepted, then in the event of his taking proceedings the surveyor's certificate would be treated as conclusive by the Court, while if the provision is not inserted he would have to prove to the satisfaction of the County Court judge that the repairs actually cost the amount he alleged. That, I think, would prove a far better protection for the tenant.

I hope my right hon. Friend will not pledge himself to adopt this or any similar Amendment. I am satisfied that in nineteen cases out of twenty tenants are on very good terms with their landlords, and any suggestion that the landlord should be put to certain expenses in proving expenditure undertaken for the benefit of the tenant will simply result in valuable improvements in houses not being made because the landlord will be unwilling to pay those particular expenses. In the interests of a general improvement of houses for the working classes this Amendment should not be pressed.

The whole difficulty would be met if the Government were to put at the end of paragraph (ii.) the words which have been added at the end of paragraph (i.), namely, "if any question arises as to the amount of such increase the question shall be determined by the County Court, whose decision shall be final and conclusive." If no question arose there would be no necessity for appealing to the County Court, and the whole thing could be carried through without friction and without bringing in any outside authority.

I think it is highly undesirable that this Amendment should be introduced. After all, these questions are generally a matter of agreement between a landlord and tenant. My hon. and learned Friend is assuming that the Bill is going to be of universal application, and is going to convert the landlord into an arbitrary kind of creature—to make him worse than he is now represented to be. I think the more we can keep the Bill out of the hands of professional men, the better it will be for everybody concerned.

Amendment negatived.

The Amendment which stands next, in the name of the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Mr. Fell), opens up new ground, and I think it should be introduced in the form of a new Clause. Perhaps the hon. Member will put it down in that form.

I think not. It touches new ground. The same ruling applies to the Amendment of the hon. Member for the City of London (Sir P. Banbury) and that of the hon. Member for Liverpool (Sir J. Harmood-Banner), both of which deal with rates.

I beg to move, in paragraph (3), to leave out the word "previously" ["previously borne by the landlord"].

If this be read in conjunction with my consequential Amendment to insert, after the word "landlord," the words "on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen," I think it will be seen the effect will be to prevent any dispute and make quite clear the intentions of the Government in electing this.

I think my hon. Friend's Amendment, if accepted, would apply only to cases where the burden is borne by the landlord on the 3rd August, 1914. But cases might arise where the burden was created after that date, and this Amendment would not deal with them, although the Bill as it stands does so. If we leave the Bill as it stands, I believe it will cover the greater number of cases.

Question, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph (iii.), after the word "increased" ["the sum periodically payable by way of rent is increased"], to insert the words,

"and any increase of rent in respect of any transfer to a landlord of any burden or liability previously borne by the tenant where, as the result of such transfer, the terms on which a dwelling-house is held are on the whole more favourable to the tenant than the previous terms shall be deemed not to be an increase of rent for the purposes of this Act."

This Amendment is intended to make complete the words of paragraph (iii.), under which the landlord who puts upon the tenant burdens which he did not formerly bear shall be deemed to have increased the rent. There may, however, come a time when the landlord is willing to take over burdens previously borne by the tenant, and the Amendment is intended to enable him, when an agreement is made which results in an arrangement more favourable to the tenant, to increase the rent so that the arrangement shall be mutual. If some Amendment of this kind is not put in, such arrangements will probably never take place, although they may be desired by both parties. I think the meaning is quite clear and that the Amendment carries out the intention of the Bill.

I hope the Committee will be willing to accept this Amendment and incorporate it in the Bill as it stands. It is really a very simple matter. I fancy it has a very limited application. I might describe it in this way: It covers cases where not only, as the hon. Member said, it is to the interest of both landlord and tenant that certain payments should be rearranged, but where they have actually agreed to such an arrangement, where there has been general agreement, and where actually, as stated in the Amendment, the adv antage lies with the tenant. It would seem rather quixotic if, in order to attain a particular object, Parliament were to lay down a rule, even where both parties to a contract are in agreement, and an arrangement has been made and where the actual benefit enures to the tenant rather than to the landlord, and say, "You shall not do this, although it is for your general advantage-and to the interests of the class of property concerned." In these circumstances I hope the Committee will accept the Amendment.

I want to enter one humble caveat to what the right hon. Gentleman has said. Is it not possible that by this means you may open the door to improper agreements which are really forced upon a tenant by a landlord? Is it not possible, by a provision of this kind, that you might have a landlord who might use this as a back door to introduce a fresh agreement, and thereby sin against the principles of the Bill? I think the danger is there. You will not allow a landlord to make an improper agreement with the tenant behind the Bill, but here you are permitting the landlord and tenant to make an agreement which will, at any rate to some extent, do away with the provisions of the Bill. I do not propose to oppose the Amendment, but I think there is that danger in it.

I should like to point out to my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. H. Smith) that this covers cases which have actually arisen, especially in crowded muntion areas, where it has been found desirable that the owners of property should allow the ordinary rules and contracts to be broken in order that accommodation might be provided for the workers in those crowded areas. There is no fear that it will be used as suggested by the hon. and learned Gentleman, but I will look at it from that point of view and, if necessary, introduce words safeguarding it. The Amendment certainly meets a real difficulty.

Whether or not the Committee accepts the Amendment should depend upon whether the Government are going to support an Amendment in another part of the Bill securing the tenant against eviction where he pays his rent and performs the conditions of the tenancy, because if the Government fail to support that, this Amendment seems to open up a very grave danger. It might be possible for a landlord to evict an existing tenant and then put in another tenant who, under cover of this provision, will in fact be paying a larger rent. There is that danger, and, if it is not out of order, I should like to know what the Government intend to do with regard to the proposal to protect a tenant against unreasonable eviction.

If the case suggested by the last speaker arises, the new tenant, as soon as he gets in, could refuse to pay the increased rent which he had said he would pay. Then he would have to be taken to the County Court, and that would show up the whole transaction, and the County Court judge would stop it.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move in Subsection (1), after paragraph (iii), to insert,

"and

(iv) Where the landlord pays the rates chargeable on, or which but for the enactments relating to compounding would be chargeable on, the occupier of any dwelling-house an increase of the rent of the dwelling-house shall not be deemed to be an increase for the purposes of this Act if the amount of the increase does not exceed any increase in the amount payable by the landlord in respect of such rates."

I hope the Committee will regard this as being, on the whole, a fair compromise and concession in regard to the rate question. I do not think it is necessary for me to argue it, unless the Committee so desire, because the ground has been covered in the previous discussion. In amplification of what I said earlier in the evening, I might say that a very large number of cases have come before me of extremely poor people, in some cases of widows with no means of subsistence except the small property which has been left to them by their husbands. In cases where the rates have gone up—they have gone up in some cases by a considerable amount owing to expenditure of which we all approve, for instance, expenditure directly connected with the War, such as allowances to municipal dependants, and so on, or the case referred to by the hon. Member for the Everton Division of Liverpool (Sir J. Harmood-Banner) of the extension of a boundary to a district which has hitherto been exempt from the higher rates and has now become liable to them for the first time—if that increase is not allowed for it might make just the difference between subsistence and starvation in the case of many poor people. The case is a just one, the Amendment is a fair compromise, and I hope the Committee will agree to it.

I should like to say how gratefully I accept this Amendment as meeting a great many of the difficulties referred to in other Amendments put down to the Bill. There was a peculiar hardship in the case of Liverpool because of the out-townships coming into the full rate list, with the result that many of them will be paying 1s. 6d. to 2s. 6d. in the £, or more in rates than they were paying last year. They have been relieved from an extreme hardship by this Amendment, and I am extremely obliged to the President of the Local Government Board for having seen and remedied it.

I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman has conceded the cprinciple contained in the Amendments put down by myself and other Members interested. This Amendment greatly improves the Bill, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that it was very widely desired in all parts of the country by the owners of small property, and on their behalf I have to thank him for the concession he has made.

8.0 P.M.

I rise to support this Amendment—that is, if I correctly understand its purpose in one direction, which is, Will this allow the landlord to increase his rent by the amount that he pays in rates where that increase is due to increased assessment? I had the privilege of being at the conference attended by representatives of landlords and of certain organisations which have been largely instrumental in bringing the state of things which this Bill is to remedy before the notice of the Government—I mean certain leagues of tenants—and at that conference the various items the landlord was called upon to meet were discussed, and a kind of compromise was arrived at which enabled them together to go to the Government and say, for instance, that while the landlord would not ask to be allowed to be recouped the ordinary repairs provided he is looking after the tenant's interest, he should be recouped for increased rates. In my view the increase of rate which he should be allowed to recoup himself should be an increase due to an increased rate in the £ and not an increased assessment. I cannot think that it is equitable that where the rate has gone up because of the assessment that that is a burden which should be passed on to the tenant. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will provide that where the increase is simply due to an increase in assessment that increase shall not be added to the tenant's rent. The other point is a comparatively small one. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the word "rates" in the Amendment includes water charges? It is quite clear that in many cases the water used in the tenement is paid for by means of a water rate, but in other cases it is paid for in other ways by means of rent or charge which might not technically be a rate. I think we should all be ready, as I believe we are, to allow a landlord who has to pay an increased water rate to add that increase to the rent, and to allow him also to add it if he pays it by way of an increased water rent or charge which would not be technically a rate. If there is anything in my point, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would consider it between now and Report and have that put right. But I think my other point is one of principle, and I do not think it is right to pass on to the tenant a charge which is due to an increase in the rateable value of the property.

I have put down two Amendments on this point which have both been swept away because of the Government Amendment. In them I put in both these things. The first is the increased amount of local, poor, or district rates, which would exclude water rate and exclude everything else except those rates which are common to all parts of the country and those where the municipal authorities own water or other undertakings. Then the other point made by the last speaker is also the subject of both my Amendments, but I take the contrary view. I say that if the assessments are raised, and they are very often raised throughout the whole of the union, property is the more valuable throughout the whole of the union, and therefore the landlord, if he is called upon to pay a greater amount by reason of the increased assessment, has the same justification for passing that on as he has for passing on the present assessment. It simply means that the value of the whole rate has risen in the view of the overseer and the assessment committee, and therefore what is right to-day for the lesser sum is right to-morrow for the greater sum which forms part of the general rise in the assessment. But suppose it is a case of altered premises. If an alteration to your premises justifies the public authority in putting up the assessment and considering the value of the property as being enhanced, surely it enures to the benefit of the person in occupation, and there can be no injustice in passing it on. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, between now and Report, to see whether he cannot strengthen the words of his Clause by taking from my Amendment the words "or increased assessment or the amount of any local poor or district rate." In that case we shall have it covered clearly, with no misunderstandings as to what it means, and it would be only fair to pass on any increase arising from both these causes to the tenant and it would not be considered a hardship.

Much as I dislike this Clause, I am bound to say one feels one cannot do anything else but accept the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, considering the way he has met us all through the course of this Bill. I hope he will see to it very clearly that this question deals only with the rates, and that if there is any new assessment the landlord will not be able to pass on to the tenant any increase in connection with the assessment, but deal with the rates only.

I think the hon. Members (Mr. Glyn-Jones and Mr. Yeo) are a little inconsistent. I understand the standard of rent to be adopted under this Bill will be the pre-war standard, but in many cases the assessments have been increased, and the landlord naturally will have to pay the poundage on the increased assessment as well as the poundage on the old rate. Therefore his expenses will be considerably more. You cannot have it both ways. If the tenants are going to enjoy the pre-war standard of rent, surely as the rateable value of the property has improved and the local charges have increased, if unfortunately they do increase, and I hope they will be kept largely within bounds as the result of this Bill, it is only fair that the tenants should bear the burden which will otherwise fall upon the shoulders of the landlord.

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, at the end, to add the words,

"but no rent shall be increased under this Sub-section until a certificate has been obtained from the city or borough treasurer, or the proper officer of the local authority, that the increase of rates justifying the proposed increase of rent has taken place, and until a copy of such certificate, together with a month's notice of the intention to increase the rent, has been given to the tenant by the landlord."

I believe whatever Amendment the right hon. Gentleman moved in connection with this Bill, none would meet with such general approval in the whole Committee. Unquestionably this is a just and proper principle which he is endeavouring to obtain. Speaking for my own Constituency, it may surprise the right hon. Gentleman to learn that in a comparatively small town with 95,000 inhabitants the rates have been increased by no less than 1s. 4d. since the War began, and I am told that this increase is still continuing. Therefore I come with perhaps greater enthusiasm to thank the right hon. Gentleman and to support the spirit of the Amendment. I hope he will acquit me of being a troublesome critic, but I criticise the words of the Amendment for very much the same reasons as I moved my previous Amendment. What proof is to be given to the tenant that the increase is a justifiable one? It appears to me to be a very dangerous thing to allow the landlords of small cottage property to present to the tenants a demand for increased rent without any evidence forthcoming whatever that the demand is justified. While I strongly advocate that the protection should be given, as it is in this Clause, surely the tenant must have the right to claim some sort of proof. In connection with a similar point which I raised a short time ago an hon. Member suggested that the tenant had an easy remedy in the County Court. I cannot think of a more impossible proposal than to tell the tenant of a 5s., 6s., or 7s. a week house, whom you are purporting to protect, that he can go to the County Court and complain if the landlord raises, his rent under this or any other Clause in the Bill. Let us protect the tenant from the County Court or any other Court, whatever else we do. I do not mind the mortgagor and mortgagee fighting it out in the County Court. It is a very pretty battle, and I have no objection to it. But let us protect the tenant from being dragged into the County Court. I beg the Committee to accept this principle. I think it would be a most disastrous thing if you gave the landlord the right to drag the tenant to the County Court or, alternatively, the right to place upon him any claim he thinks fit, whether he can substantiate it before the proper tribunal or not. That is my first criticism. What proof is there to be given to the tenant that that increase of rent is an increase justified by the increase of rates?

My second criticism is again one which I have already referred to on a previous Amendment. Surely the Government is not going to justify a landlord who increases rent under this Sub-section to throw the tenant into the street next week, or, at any rate, to give him a week's notice. A tenant may very properly say, "You say you want this extra rent, and that you are justified in claiming it, but I want some time to consider it. I am not satisfied that your claim is a just one." Under this Clause, as it stands, the landlord claiming an increased rent on the ground of increased rates can give the tenant notice either to pay the rent or to vacate within a week. Just think of your munition worker, on whose behalf primarily the Bill is introduced! I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to think of the case of the munition worker to whom the landlord comes and says, "I am going to increase your rent, and if you do not pay the increase by next Monday you will have to go." Surely the position is not possible. Let us give him at least a month's notice. I hope the Government will not think I am against this proposal. I am a very warm supporter of it, but I want to protect the tenant. Let us see that the tenant has some notice, and that it shall, at any rate, be a month's notice, and not a week's notice. While I welcome any criticism of the wording of my Amendment, I take the view that a private Member cannot possibly hope to draft an Amendment which will in its wording and detail be accepted by the Government. I only put the principle of my Amendment to the Committee, and I would ask the Government to accept the principle, although. I agree that the precise way in which I endeavour to bring it about may not be the best.

I hope my hon. and learned Friend will not press his Amendment, for this reason alone—I give only one reason —that the municipal authorities of the country are already worked, I think, really to the maximum of their power. Their staff has been very seriously depleted, and it is extremely improbable that the gaps will be filled up—at all events during the War—and this would really mean adding an enormous burden to the work of our borough officials. I am assured that it is not one that they would willingly undertake, or, indeed, in the present condition of their clerical strength, could undertake. Surely it is a counsel of perfection on my hon. and learned Friend's part. Is it likely that these charges are going to be made in a wholesale fashion unless they can be substantiated? And in regard to rates, it is much more a matter of fact, and of recent fact, than is any claim which is based upon the original cost or the cost of maintenance over a period of years, or anything of that kind. I hope my hon. and learned Friend will not press it, because really, in the interest of the municipalities and their officials, the Government could not possibly accept it. We have been asked whether these rates in respect of which this relief is given, are rates which have been in themselves actually increased or whether the amount has been increased because of the increase in the assessment. This raises, I know, an old and very great bone of contention between people who hold different views in regard to property. Many of us are very familiar with them. May I suggest that we are dealing with it only as a temporary measure. Surely, whatever may be our views as to whose shoulders should bear any burden which arises in connection with the increase in the value of the property, if you are saying to the owner of the property, "You shall not get the increase of rent which you consider yourself entitled to because of the War, and which actually was the foundation cause of the increase in the assessment, but you shall pay the increased rates because the assessment has been increased," that would not be just. You are depriving him of an advantage, and you must also give him an opportunity for the period of the War, without any prejudice, to include in his rent the charge of the outgoing that he is actually making.

We are apt too often to discuss this question from the point of view of great landlords. Many hon. Members have directed their minds to vast estates and great incomes. I know, however, from my own experience since I took charge of this Bill, what an enormous number of people there are in the country of the smallest description whose only means of subsistence is to be found in this small class of property. If this relief is not given you are going to deprive them of what they really think is their right, namely, to get an increased rent from people who are much better off than they are themselves, in many cases, and at the same time you are going to say to them, "You must bear the extra burden which arises out of the assessment, a charge of which many of us think you ought to be relieved in normal time if the matter had been dealt with in a permanent way." It is on these grounds I have moved this particular Amendment. It can only apply to the rates which have to be paid in respect of the period during which the rent is due. It is not really open to very much abuse, and I sincerely hope that the Committee will be good enough to adopt it, without the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Harold Smith), after the explanation I have given.

In asking leave to withdraw my Amendment I would like to say that I carefully prefaced my remarks by saying that I did not think the wording of the Amendment would be the most desirable. There may be better authorities than the local authorities or the borough treasurer. Even regarding that as an insuperable difficulty, which, with great respect I do not, will the right hon. Gentleman on the Report stage not meet me in respect of my appeal, that the tenant should have, at any rate, a month's notice of the landlord's intention to increase the rent? If he will consider that I shall feel that I have not moved this Amendment in vain.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to add, at the end, the words "made since the commencement of the present War, or during the continuance of this Act." I wish to put in these words in order to make it quite clear that the increase of rates must have taken place since the commencement of the War. There are other Amendments on the Paper which recognise this point, but the Government draftsman has not done so. If my Amendment is accepted there will be no question of any landlord going back to a period prior to the outbreak of the War in making a comparison between the rates paid then and now.

( indistinctly heard ): I do not think the words moved would quite effect the hon. Gentleman's object, because they would enable the landlord to add his rates ever since the beginning of the War. [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"] I say that in the case of a new tenancy the words of this Amendment would enable the landlord to add his rates ever since the beginning of the War. He ought not to add his rates except in respect of the same period for which the increased rent is charged. However, I will consider this matter before the Report stage.

No. We will consider it before the Report stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

New paragraph there inserted in the Bill:—

"(iv.) Where the landlord pays the rates chargeable on, or which but for the enactments relating to compounding would be chargeable on, the occupier of any dwelling-house an increase of the rent of the dwelling-house shall not be deemed to be an increase for the purposes of this Act if the amount of the increase does not exceed any increase in the amount payable by the landlord in respect of such rates."

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph (iii.), to add as a new paragraph,

"(iv.) This Sub-section shall not apply to any rent or mortgage interest which may accrue in respect of any new building or dwelling-house which may be erected after the passing of this Act."

This Amendment has reference to business which may arise in respect of new buildings or dwelling-houses which may be erected after the passing of this Act. I spoke at some length in support of this principle on the introduction of the Bill and on the Second Reading, and some hon. Members of the Labour party, an hon. Member for Birmingham, and the hon. Member for Oxford University were kind enough to support the principle which I suggested to the right hon. Gentleman. If he accepts this Amendment, and I hope he will, it will be carrying out the purpose of the Bill, which I apprehend is to prevent any excessive rent being charged and any excessive rate of interest by the mortgagee. Under Sub-section (3) you really do away with the security, for you do not allow the mortgagee either to call in his money or exercise the right of foreclosure, and as a result I am afraid there will be very little fresh money put into the building trade. In the Constituency I represent, Coventry, there is a great scarcity of houses. We want five thousand houses just now. I believe there are other munition areas which are suffering from the lack of houses. I am sure that the purpose of this Bill is not to discourage building operations in the future, but I think the Committee will see that if there is no security offered, as would be the case practically under this Bill, for new buildings, there will be very little money forthcoming, and even if it was forthcoming it would be at almost prohibitive rates, and the result of that would be that you would have prohibitive rents. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept this Amendment. I think it ought to commend itself to him, because it is in accordance with the purpose of the Bill. If we are to have some enterprise still, and some building continued, we must have regard to the question of security in the future business which may possibly arise.

I hope that the hon. Member will not think it necessary to press this Amendment. I am assured that so far as the main object of the Bill goes, these words are quite unnecessary. If he will look at Clause 3, paragraphs ( a ) and ( b ), I think he will see that the intention of the Bill is made perfectly clear. The Bill could not affect adversely new cottages, because they could not have been let before the War. You could not draw a comparison between the rent to-day and the rent before the War broke out, because the rent before the War broke out could not have existed. What is really feared is that this Bill may have a restrictive effect upon building. But I am afraid that that is crying over spilt milk. Building operations in this country have already been suspended for a variety of reasons which I need not give to the Committee. In Coventry itself we are endeavouring to deal with this difficulty, through the intervention of the Government, and a very difficult and expensive proceeding it is. There are certain other parts of the country where it is absolutely vital that fresh accommodation should be provided for the large influx of workers. Therefore, hon. Members may rely on it that we will do nothing to interfere with the progress of work of this kind. But I submit to the Committee that to put in words to which the promoters of the Bill are opposed, to which my advisers who are responsible for the construction of the Bill are opposed, merely on the ground that it might possibly prevent some supposed mischief, is not the right course. I believe that the Bill as it stands does all that it is asked to do, and I do not think there is any risk of interference with building operations by this Bill. Advised, as I am, that these words are not necessary, and might be injurious, I cannot consent to their adoption.

I regret that the right hon. Gentleman has taken this line in regard to this Amendment. I am connected with a number of societies whose object is the building of houses for the working classes, not for profit, but at the rates of interest necessary to get back their money. The uncertainty of the Bill as it stands will make it exceedingly difficult for those societies to go on building, even if otherwise they could manage to do so. Everyone is agreed that, in present circumstances, it will be very difficult for these societies to go on building, but in certain cases they can do so. The right hon. Gentleman referred us to paragraphs ( a ) and ( b ) of Clause 3, and seemed to think that the fact that such dwelling-houses were let on the 3rd August, 1914, covered the whole of those cases. But later on, it says, "in the case of a dwelling-house which was first let after the said 3rdAugust, the rent at which it was first let"; and a dwelling-house, which is built only this winter or next spring, is surely one which was let after the said 3rd day of August. In the same way in the case of a mortgage created since that date the standard rate would be the original rate of interest. In that case the original rent could never be changed during the War, and the rate of interest could never be changed during the War. The result would be that it would be almost impossible to get money later on on such property, and the risk of putting it up would be so great that the societies which I have in mind would, I think, find it almost impossible to take that risk.

I quite sympathise with the object which the Mover of the Amendment has in view. But what he is really asking is, that a new house, put up after the passing of this Act, shall be in a privileged position, and that the rent can be raised, while the rent of the house erected before the War cannot be raised.

It is not a question of raising the rents of new houses. Under this Bill any rents that the owners like can be charged for new houses.

The point was that you could never change the rent when once it was fixed. It is said that if you want to erect new houses after this Bill passes, you will find it very hard to get the money to build them, because once the house is put up and the rent fixed, you cannot then raise it. In other words, you are asking that a new house should be in a privileged position, so as to induce people to advance the money to put up such houses. I am in favour of the position taken up by the Government.

The object is to secure that where possible houses should be built. Our contention is that the Bill as it stands will so penalise the building of houses during the War as to stop it altogether.

I quite sympathise with the object of my hon. Friends who are interested in this Amendment, but it seems to me that the Amendment is not calculated to secure their object. I think that it is quite impossible to expect new houses to be built if this Bill is passed, whether we accept this Amendment or not. Nobody would build new houses after legislation of this kind had once been sanctioned by Parliament, and the right hon. Gentleman has told us that the Government recognise this fact, and that they are now providing new houses in constituencies like Coventry and other parts of the country, where they are subsidising building. In other words, they are going to provide houses at the expense of the National Exchequer, and at the same time they are preaching economy. One is absolutely dumb before the inconsistencies of the present Administration. It seems to me that this protection is not required. Under Clause 3 the standard rent is to be the original rent in the case of new houses, and the standard rate of interest is to be the original rate of interest. In the case of new houses the parties entering into the undertaking have this Bill before them. They know that there can be no increase of the original rate during the period of the War. In these circumstances, if they are foolish enough to enter into such contracts, they will obviously make the rate high enough to cover them against all contingencies of war, and they will be protected, if it is possible to find builders who will build, but I understand that all the builders of the country are now in the service of the Munitions Department.

My hon. Friend points out that the new houses under the Bill will be put on such a footing as to be actually prohibitive. First, there will be very few lenders, and they will charge very high rates. That will entail very high rents. My point was that if this Amendment were carried, while I quite agree that new business would be very limited, still in certain areas like my own Constituency, where there is a great scarcity of houses, some private business is still going on. It is quite true that the Government in those constituencies are helping to provide houses. But the point is that if you do not exclude new houses from the Bill, then owing to the lack of capital the rates for the new houses, when capital is forthcoming, will be very high, which will mean very much higher rents. If you do not offer the security to the prospective lender, he will charge much higher rates than if he were excluded from the Bill, because if he is brought into the Bill he will look upon the money as locked-up capital, and he will charge a much higher rate, so that the rent will go to a much higher level. My point is that this Amendment would bring new buildings at a lower level of rent. However, in view of what the Government have said, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment by leave withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph (iii), after the word "conclusive" ["final and conclusive"], at the end, to insert the words,

"shall not apply to the case of any re-letting of premises which have been vacated in consequence of the death or removal of the previous tenant where the rent paid by such tenant has been specially low by reason of relationship, conditions of employment, long previous duration of tenancy, or other like reason which, in the opinion of the County Court, has previously caused a lower rent to be accepted than would have been obtained as the then marketable rent of the premises."

I had this Amendment down for insertion at the end of paragraph (ii.), but I was told that it was not admissible at that point, and that I could move it at the end of paragraph (iii.). We know, many of us, that premises are let frequently at a lower rental because of special circumstances, such as the tenant being a relative or an old tenant, or other special reasons which have caused a rent to be accepted lower than the market value. What I want to secure by this Amendment is that when a tenancy has lapsed through the death of the tenant, or from other cause, the premises which have been let at the lower rental for the special reasons which are enumerated in the Amendment shall not be regarded as not being a proper subject for the market value of the premises, and that the owner shall not be prejudiced by having been generous in accepting a lower rent as a concession to a relative or an old tenant, or for some other and similar special reason. He ought not to be prejudiced when he conies to consider the question of a new rent; otherwise that would be to penalise him because he had been considerate in accepting a lower rent under special conditions. Although the number of cases affected may not be large, yet I think they are sufficiently large to justify their being dealt with.

I think my hon. and learned Friend has with great generosity provided the answer to his own argument. I am told, and I mention it with bated breath, that there is a legal maximum, de minimus non curat lex. The cases axe so few in number that they hardly provide justification for this Amendment.

That must not go down in the OFFICIAL REPORT. What I said was that although they could not be regarded as many in number, they were quite sufficiently large to justify a special means of treatment.

I thought, from what my hon. and learned Friend said, that, although they were not numerous in themselves, these cases were sufficiently numerous and sufficiently important to entitle them to the consideration of the Committee. I would point out to him, however, that the real objection to the Amendment is that it could not be carried into effect without setting up a tribunal. This would afford an opportunity at once for other claims to be made on the ground of special reasons, of which my hon. and learned Friend gives two or three, such as relationship, an old tenant, and other special circumstances, for fixing a lower rent. I am quite sure that, while my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment might alter the law in a way manifestly just to the particular cases he has in mind, it would, I believe, open a field to others which are not just, which have never been contemplated, and which my hon. Friend has never contemplated ought to be included, and the only way to decide between the just and the unjust would be by setting up a tribunal. That is one of the things we want to avoid. This Bill is required to deal with an immediate and pressing difficulty. It is not one where we want inquiries lasting six, eight, or ten months before a decision is arrived at. We want now to deal with the difficulty in as summary and simple a way as we can. On that ground I ask my hon. and learned Friend not to press his Amendment.

In the paragraph just passed a tribunal is created, though I believe only for a specific purpose; but I am quite willing, having ventilated the point, to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move at the end of paragraph (iii.), to insert the following paragraph:—

"(iv.) Where the mortgagee shall satisfy a judge of the County Court or any Fellow of the Surveyors' Institute whom he may appoint to act on his behalf that the mortgagor is permitting waste, or is neglecting to do repairs necessary for the reasonable maintenance of the property, and is thereby diminishing the security the subject of the mortgage, such judge of the County Court, or such appointee, may order that such repairs as are reasonably necessary for the maintenance of the property as security for the mortgage shall be executed by the mortgagor, and a failure on the part of the mortgagor to execute such repairs shall be deemed to be a sufficient reason to deprive him of any protection in respect of such property afforded by this Act, and, in making any order under this Sub-section, the provisions of Sub-section (2) of this Section may apply to such repairs, or to such part thereof, as to the judge or his appointee may see fit and may so order."

In moving this Amendment I will, first of all, state the case, and then in two or three sentences deal with the manner in which I try, by the Amendment, to meet what I think is a weak point in the Bill. We have in this measure very rightly given protection to the tenant and to the mortgagor, and I submit that this Amendment affords an appropriate opportunity of also giving possibly necessary protection to the mortgagee. It is quite clear that the general tendency in connection with the class of property dealt with by the Bill is propertly to maintain the mortgaged property. I believe it is particularly true with this class of property that there is always this tendency. It is quite obvious that the tendency to waste, as we understand it, is increased by this Bill; and I think it is apparent that the tendency will be increased when perhaps material, labour, and other charges have increased upon the mortgagor, and the result of that will be that he will spend less on the property which is the subject of the mortgage. Having regard to this general tendency, which will obviously be increased by this Bill, I think we should give the mortgagee some protection. In my humble judgment it would be quite unjust for any mortgagor to seek the protection which this Act gives him, where it can be shown that he is not properly carrying out his obligations under the mortgage. One of his first responsibilities is to maintain the property adequately. The mortgagee, of course, has not only the property as security, but he has what is known as the personal security, in case the property is proved not to be sufficiently valuable to repay any money which he has advanced. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree that the personal security in cases of this kind is not a very valuable one, and I do not press it further than that.

The wording of my Amendment may very likely be largely improved, but what I want to do is to establish the principle that where this waste is proved, that then the mortgagor shall be called upon by a tribunal, and I do not care whether it is a County Court judge or his appointee, to spend such sum as is necessary to put the property into a proper state of repair, as security for the mortgage. That having been done, the question arises as to whether the mortgagor should be liable for the whole of that sum himself. I have in my Amendment made the suggestion that where such expenditure has been ordered, and has been made, that the mortgagor may have the protection of Sub-section (2), and the right to charge 6 per cent. on improvements, or structural alterations, but that he may not have the protection of that Sub-section unless it has been so ordered by the tribunal which has made the order. I think it would be unjust to say that a mortgagor, having been ordered by a tribunal to put the property in a state of repair, that he should be able to pass that expenditure, so to speak, on to the tenant. On the other hand, I think it would be equally improper if he were deprived of the right of passing on some portion of it, if it was an expenditure that the tribunal thought was proper to be passed on. Therefore I suggest it should be left to the tribunal which makes the order to decide whether, and, if so, to what extent, that expenditure is proper expenditure to pass on to the tenant. While I have suggested the County Court, or an appointee, I personally am inclined to take the view that the question is one which ought only to be decided in the County Courts. The question is a dispute between the mortgagor and the mortgagee, and I think it is very proper that they should be ordered to try the issue between them in the County Court. I hope my right hon. Friend will favourably consider the principle.

I think there will be no disputes that by this Bill we are depriving the mortgagee of certain privileges which he has at present. We deprive him of the right of enjoying increased interest on his mortgage, which he may have asked for and obtained, and we forbid the right of foreclosing. My hon. and learned Friend, on the Second Reading of the Bill, raised this question of the waste of the property —that is, of the security for the mortgage —and pointed out that unless some steps were taken the mortgagee would be exposed to risk, and that the mortgagor could turn round and say, "You have no power to raise your rate of interest or to disturb me in the possession of the property which I occupy, and therefore I will gradually let it go to waste, so that at the end of the time it will be worth very little." That does present some risk which, however remote, ought to be provided against. I confess I do not like the machinery of the Amendment, which, I think, is too cumbersome. I believe all that was necessary would be done by the addition of a few words to Sub-section (3) of Clause 2—

"It shall not be lawful for any mortgagee under a mortgage to which this Act applies, during the continuance of this Act, and so long as the interest at the standard rate is paid and the covenants of the mortgage are observed, to call in his mortgage or to exercise any right of foreclosure sale or other means of enforcing his security."

You could interpolate some words at the end of that, providing that the mortgagor is to maintain the property in a proper state of repair. I should like to consider the question before the Report stage. I have had very few suggestions made to me in regard to this matter, and although there may be very little evidence that there is real danger, undoubtedly you are depriving the mortgagee of all control over the security on which he has lent his money, and you are putting all the power into the hands of the mortgagor. It may be desirable to protect the mortgagee, and, if so, it should be done by some kind of words such as I have suggested, and which might be introduced on the Report stage.

I cannot help thinking it would be a very good plan if the suggestion of my right hon. Friend were adopted, and if he were allowed to consider the matter and to deal with it on the Report stage. I say so because I am going to submit another aspect of the case which I think seems to have escaped attention. Both the Mover of the Amendment and the right hon. Gentleman assumed that the mortgagor must necessarily have it in his power to keep the property in proper order. What happened in thousands of cases of little freeholds with which I was extremely well acquainted at the worst time of agricultural depression? They had not the means or the possibility of keeping the property in proper order. As a matter of fact, during those times of depression many of these people were ruined, and a vast number of these properties passed out of their possession altogether. Many of the larger holders were in the same position. What would this Amendment do in cases of that sort? This class of case appears to have escaped the attention both of my right hon. Friend and of the mover of this Amendment, and I mention it in order that it may be borne in mind when the matter is being considered between now and the Report stage.

I would not be so rash as to offer any answer to my right hon. Friend on agricultural matters. I speak only with some little knowledge—incomparable with my right hon. Friend's agricultural knowledge—of large industrial towns, and it was in reference to these that I moved my Amendment. In asking leave to withdraw, I would express my gratitude to my right hon. Friend for the sympathy he has shown with the principle of the Amendment, and I am inclined to agree that the method he has outlined is the better one for carrying it out. I would, however, impress upon him the necessity of having some regard to the two points raised in the latter part of the Amendment—first, the failure of the mortgagor to carry out repairs which have been ordered, and, secondly, whether he should pass them or any part of them on to the tenant under Sub-section (2).

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), at the end of paragraph (iii.), to insert,

"(iv.) This Sub-section shall not apply where notices demanding either repayment of the mortgage or an increased rate of interest have been given prior to the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen."

9.0 P.M.

This Amendment deals with a point which has nothing to do with the War. Its object is to safeguard arrangements made before the War was even thought of. In the majority of cases mortgages are for fixed periods, six or twelve months as the case may be, and if the mortgagee or the mortgagor desires to alter the terms or to pay off the loan, he can do so by giving six or twelve months' notice. It is well known that before the War, owing to a variety of circumstances, there was a considerable increase in the value of money. In many cases when money was cheap in the late nineties and a little later mortgages had been reduced in value—3½ per cent. or even less. Mortgagees had not been very quick in altering the arrangements, but in many cases notice had been given to pay off the mortgage or to increase the rate of interest. The object of the Amendment is to safeguard such notices which were given prior to the War. It would be very hard and wrong where a person had given notice, say in February, 1914, practically six months before the War, that he would require a higher rate of interest and it had been agreed to by the mortgagor, that this Bill should now come along and declare that the arrangement must be altered. This is an innocent Amendment, which as it does not touch the principle of the Bill in any way, but simply does an act of justice, I think the Government ought to accept. I may say that I have several reliable instances of the hardship that would occur if the Amendment were not accepted.

I do not know whether the Committee would agree with the hon. Baronet's christening of his Amendment. When an Amendment is described as an "innocent" Amendment, I am generally a little suspicious; but on this occasion I congratulate my hon. Friend on at last having put down an Amendment which I think the whole Committee will accept. It was never intended that this Bill should apply to increases of rent or increases of mortgage interest before the War broke out; neither is it intended to apply to increases of rent and still less to increases of mortgage interest of which notice was given before the War. I am glad to be able to accept the Amendment.

I was wondering whether it would be right and proper to suggest that the notice should be in writing.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), at the end of paragraph (iii.), to insert the words,

"Where proceedings are taken in any Court for the recovery of possession of any dwelling-house or other premises to which this Act applies upon the determination of the tenancy therein by notice to quit, and it appears to the Court that the notice to quit was served or not withdrawn wholly or partially by reason of the refusal of the tenant to pay an increased rent by this Act made irrecoverable all further proceedings shall be stayed."

What really happens is this, that the householder demands increased rent and threatens to serve notice to quit if the tenant does not agree to pay it. In many cases—in almost every case—he enforces payment in this way. Nearly all these cases so affected are weekly or monthly tenancies. Under the Bill as it stands the householder can and will serve his notice to quit. By this Amendment I do not desire to destroy the right to serve a notice to quit in the proper place and at the proper time. It may be objected that the cause I have described would not be stated on the notice as a reason why the notice to quit was served, but—the Committee must remember— anyone who has had any experience in regard to this class of property, and also this class of tenants, knows that a notice to quit is regarded with the greatest possible fear by the majority of poor tenants. Such a notice very frequently has the effect that no matter what lies behind, and what is the reason for that notice, the tenant will pay the rent rather than receive it. Disfranchisement, change of tenancy, and various other things follows a notice to quit. The proposal I make is one which I think ought to be carried out in the interests of the Bill.

This subject is an exceedingly important one, but it would be very much better discussed— as it ought to be—towards the end of Sub-section (2). That would be the best place to deal with it. I would ask the hon. Member to withdraw his Amendment now in favour of discussing the matter as I suggest, when it will be much more easily dealt with.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "or" ["or continuance of a tenancy"].

I move this Amendment on behalf of my hon. Friend (Mr. Nield). The outgoing tenant makes a charge to the ingoing tenant of what is called key-money, which is in the nature of the very similar charge made by the landlord to the tenant by way of premium for taking possession of his property. If there is a prohibition against the landlord taking a premium from the incoming tenant there ought to be a prohibition against the outgoing tenant taking a premium from the incoming tenant. I have absolutely no knowledge of the matter myself, but my hon. Friend assures me from his own experience that it is a common practice, and it is one to which he desires to put an end.

This point about key-money is really not within the main principle of the Bill. The money is paid not by the landlord at all, but by a third party to the outgoing tenant. I apprehend that what is done under these circumstances is that the outgoing tenant, not keeping entirely within the law, says to the incoming tenant, "I am, whatever my legal position, not prepared to go unless I have a certain consideration for going." Under these circumstances I have no doubt the money is occasionally paid. It is very difficult to stop the practice. The only effect is that the outgoing tenant says, if he does not get the money, "Very well, I will not go." I do not think any words or any addition to this Bill will prevent that practice going on. If that be so, I do not think it is desirable to admit a principle which you cannot really enforce. It is a question of the third party, who is altogether outside the scope of this Bill. For that reason I do not think it is desirable to put these words into the Bill, or embark upon the kind of legislation required by the hon. Member.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "dwelling-house" ["tenancy of any dwelling-house"], to insert the words "let at a rack rent."

It is a very small point, but it raises rather a big question. The Clause as it stands would prevent any premium being taken on the renewal of a ground lease. As I understand the Bill, it is not directed against the case where ground leases expire or are continued, but against the more common case of rack-renting. By inserting the words I propose, you confine the Bill to what I believe is its real object.

May I point out to my hon. Friend that if he puts in the suggested words at this point he only deals with part of the question which no doubt is in his mind. You do not deal with other questions which, I remember, he raised in another part of the Bill as to raising the rent in respect of premises which are let at the ground rent or at a low rent. It would be far better, therefore, if he would reserve the point until a later stage. If he will look at the Amendment Paper he will see I have an Amendment down in Clause 3, Sub-section (2), which deals with this point, and deals with it in a more general way. He may not like my form of words, but he can raise that point when we come to the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The next Amendment, I think, has been already dealt with by the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson).

Perhaps if I explain the point dealt with by my Amendment, it may not be considered the same point. It is, in Sub-section (2), after the word "applies," to insert the words, "or in the consideration of the vacating of any such house."

This is put in to deal with the system that has sprung up of advertising for a house and saying that a premium will be paid to the person who vacates the house. The premium that is paid by the incoming tenant will not in any way be dealt with by this Sub-section as it stands. The words which I propose will deal with that particular evil under which a premium is offered by an incoming tenant to the outgoing tenant.

The hon. Member has just explained exactly what the hon. and learned Gentleman and the Solicitor-General have been discussing— the question of what is known as key-money, and if the hon. Member had heard the reply of the Solicitor-General he would see that it was covered.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "the" ["in addition to the rent"], to insert the word "standard."

That is to make it quite clear that you will have the safeguard that the rent to be charged will be the standard rent under the Act.

The Amendment would not have the effect the hon. Member intends, and I think it better for the hon. Member not to proceed with it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "rent" ["in addition to the rent"], to insert the words "nor shall any person for the consideration aforesaid require the payment of any rent in respect of any dwelling-house to which the Act applies greater than the standard rent."

It is stated in the Bill that no person in consideration of the grant, renewal, or continuance of a tenancy, shall be expected to pay any fine or premium, and so on. All that this Amendment states is that in addition a person shall not pay any rent other than the standard rent provided in the Bill.

I think my hon. Friend will see that this Amendment is quite unnecessary. The Bill, I think, covers it completely. The landlord may not exact any rent, and no rent is recoverable beyond the standard rent, and the landlord may not exact any fine.

If that is made clear, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (2) leave out the words "whether it was made before or after the date when the Order in Council applying this Act to the area in which the dwelling-house is situate was made."—[ Mr. Millar. ]

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert the words,

"Provided that this Sub-section shall not apply to cases where a fine, premium, or other like sum had been required to be paid in addition to the rent as a consideration for the grant, renewal, or continuance of a tenancy which took place before the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen."

My hon. Friend (Sir Francis Lowe) has asked me to move this Amendment. It seems to me to be a reasonable Amendment, though I have doubt in my mind, after reading the Clause, whether the object is not covered by the Clause. If it is not so, I think my right hon. Friend might accept it. Unfortunately I am not a lawyer, and it is difficult for me to understand the meaning of the Clause, but I am rather inclined to think it is covered by the Clause.

As I understand the Amendment, it will be really covered by the Amendment to which I referred just now. I promise, however, to give the matter full consideration.

In those circumstances, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move to add, at the end of Sub-section (2), the words,

"No order for the recovery of possession of a dwelling-house to which this Act applies, or for the ejectment of a tenant therefrom, shall be made except on the ground of non-payment of rent, or some other ground which may be deemed satisfactory by the Court."

I substitute this proposal for two or three other Amendments on the Paper which were ruled out of order. I do not think the ground has been covered, and I think this Amendment will cover it. What we have in mind is that the tenant might possibly be ejected or proceedings might possibly be taken against the tenant for having made himself objectionable. For instance, he might have taken part in the agitation which has been going on in different parts of the country demanding this Bill, and we want that man pro- tected so long as he may use the house in a proper way and pay his rent. The landlord may recover possession of the house if the rent is not paid, but we wish to prevent the landlord victimising the man so long as he conducts himself properly, and is not guilty of any act which may be construed to be a legal nuisance.

There is no doubt that considerable feeling was manifested in the House on the Second Reading of the Bill as to the danger that the landlord might eject a tenant for some such cause as taking part in the agitation which had led to the introduction of this Bill. The whole House has agreed to protect the tenant from anything like an abnormal increase of rent, and it has agreed to come to his rescue in that case. I think the Committee would be well-advised if it were to remove the possibility of the landlord using the procedure of the Court to remove from his tenancy some tenant who was objectionable to him on the ground that he has taken a very leading part in obtaining a reduction of rent, preventing an increase of rent, or obtaining some better terms for himself or those who have the advantage or disadvantage of living in his neighbourhood. My right hon. Friend has very carefully considered the words of this Amendment, and he has instructed me to say on his behalf that I can accept this Amendment, which has been drawn up in consultation with my right hon. Friend, to protect the tenant from such an eviction. After all, if this Amendment is adopted, it will still be possible for the landlord to evict his tenant for nonpayment of rent, or for not fulfilling the covenants of his tenancy, and it will enable justice to be done to all parties. I believe this form of words offers adequate protection, both to the landlord and the tenant, and I hope the result of the controversy which has taken place will be satisfactory to all parties. These words are slightly altered from those on the Paper, but the sense of them is not altered. They give adequate protection, both to the landlord and the tenant, and it will be for the judge to say whether there is reasonable and just grounds for ejecting the tenant under these circumstances. I hope the Committee will agree that my right hon. Friend, who, in consultation with the Mover of this Amendment, has drawn up these words, has arrived at a form of words which practically protect both the landlord and the tenant.

I am sure the Committee will receive with satisfaction the decision of the Government on this point. The matter is one of very considerable importance, looking to the agitation which has necessarily taken place in regard to the situation in Scotland and other parts of the country where strong views have been expressed, under good reason in many instances of threats of eviction. I hope the effect of this proposal will be to carry out the intention of the Government to hold the balance fairly between landlord and tenant, and to secure that under this Bill no tenant shall be evicted who holds a tenancy of premises within the scope of this Bill unless there are some special reasons which justify the landlord in taking such proceedings. The eviction is of serious importance to those involved, as there is such a scarcity of housing accommodation, and I am sure the Government will earn the gratitude of many people for accepting this Amendment.

With regard to the Amendment we are now considering, the rights of the owner are completely ignored. You have extended this Bill to the whole country and you have given the tenant certain rights in regard to the increases in rent. But now, when you go further, after having put the whole country on that basis, to protect the tenant against eviction except upon grounds satisfactory to the Court, I submit that that is something which is wholly unreasonable and uncalled for. This is not an emergency proposal at all. It deals with unfair increases of rent, and I myself was an early advocate of a measure dealing with that question in regard to our soldiers and sailors, but I cannot see that the tenants require more than they do. The Bill was never intended for that purpose, for it began as a Munitions Area Bill.

The right hon. Gentleman may say "No," but I can say quite frankly that if the Bill had been confined to munition areas some such protection might have been—

Surely I am entitled to argue why this Clause is not necessary. So long as you confine this Clause to local areas it might be necessary to protect a man against eviction, because to throw a man out of a certain area might throw him out of employment. But when you make the Bill universal the ground for this protection entirely ceases, and it is wrong to introduce such a proviso. A person might wish to go and reside in his own house, and there might be good reasons why a man should want possession of his house. Take the case of a farmer. Say that a carter goes to the War and leaves his wife behind him: that may be the only convenient house near the stables; and the same may be true of a carman or a shepherd; and in such cases it is of importance for the owner to get possession of that house by reason of the actual necessities of the situation. I submit that this surrender is absolutely uncalled for. It is not an emergency measure at all. I can only conceive that it is a pure surrender to some undue pressure that has been put on the right hon. Gentleman.

The speech of my hon. and learned Friend calls for an immediate reply from me. In the first place, my hon. and learned Friend has chosen to make a statement about my action in introducing this Bill which is absolutely unfounded, and in an exceptional manner, happily uncommon in this House, he refused to accept my interruption.

My hon. and learned Friend has chosen to state that I introduced this Bill on certain limited grounds I am responsible for this Bill, and his statement, if it has any foundation at all, rests upon some speech of mine. I challenge him to reproduce a speech in which I have said that this Bill was introduced to deal with munition areas. If that had been the case, how does he account for the language originally contained in Clause 1, in which we apply this Bill, under Order in Council, to two distinct areas—first of all, to the county of London, and, secondly, to towns of over 100,000 population? My hon. and learned Friend knows perfectly well that there are plenty of towns in this country exceeding a population of 100,000 which could not be described as munition areas. We went further, and gave as an alternative to the population of 100,000 places in the country where certain conditions exist. I am sorry that my hon. and learned Friend thought it necessary to make that charge, and refused to accept my interruption. I repeat that the statement is absolutely without foundation. The Bill was not introduced as a Bill applicable to munition areas, or from that point of view alone. I gave the grounds for the introduction of the Bill perfectly clearly in the two speeches I made on the introduction of the Bill and on the Second Reading, and by those speeches I am bound. I now come to his further charge, which is that the acceptance of this Amendment is a surrender, as he pleases to call it, to some influence outside this House, or to some special influence. I do not know what influence he means. I can only say this: My hon. and learned Friend and I belong to the same party and have fought side by side many a time on behalf of causes in which we both believe. Neither that party nor those causes are going to be assisted by charges made across the floor of this House that we who are for the time being taking part in the most difficult task of a Coalition Administration are either surrendering our principles and abandoning the views which we have always held or indulging in ignoble surrenders because we do that which we believe to be right in order to make our legislation effective.

The suggestion that this is a surrender is absolutely without foundation. Certainly on two occasions, speaking on behalf of the Government, I have dealt with this question of evictions in my speeches. I indicated on the Second Reading that this was one of the questions the Government had reserved for special consideration, and that in regard to it we realised that there was a practical difficulty. My hon. and learned Friend says that this Bill is intended solely to deal with munition areas, and with questions therein arising. It is nothing of the kind. The Bill was brought in deliberately by the Government, and I think that I made the ground perfectly clear in my speeches, in order to deal with a very real difficulty and a very real evil—cases where the rents have been raised in consequence of the War, and raised so as to make the conditions absolutely intolerable for many of the tenants. It has nothing to do with munition areas. What is the object of the Amendment? The object is to prevent tenants being turned out of their homes during the War when there is no opportunity for them to go elsewhere. All building operations are suspended. In nearly all the districts where this trouble arises you have an enormously increased population introduced. Why? Because we are at war. Some cases that were given on the Second Reading exist, not in munition areas, but in areas where the introduction of soldiers has entirely changed the conditions of the people. In country villages where before the War there was only a normal population and plenty of room for everybody, you have now a population of 120,000 brought together from outside. That brings in its train an extraordinary demand upon the housing accommodation of the district. You have got to deal with all these special conditions, and it is in order to deal with them that this Bill is introduced. There has been no surrender.

I have said that our object is to prevent the increase of rents. Our object is to prevent owners of houses taking advantage of the War to put tenants in an impossible position. If it is open to the owner to evict the tenant for some unjust cause or reason, all the protection that you have given him in regard to his rent is lost. My hon. and learned Friend gave the case of the shepherd and the farm labourer. I think my hon. and learned Friend, at all events, will allow that I am as well able to speak for the farmer and the shepherd and the carter as anybody here. I have spent my whole life living in the country, and the conditions of that kind of life are perfectly familiar to me. Does my hon. and learned Friend suggest, if an application were made under the words at the end of this Amendment "or any ground which may be deemed satisfactory by the Court," and if it were shown it was absolutely necessary to recover possession in order that the industry might be carried out, that it would not be regarded as a satisfactory ground by the Court? I am not a lawyer and my hon. and learned Friend is a distinguished member of that profession, but I am quite confident ground of that kind would cover any of the special cases to which he refers. But this Amendment is not intended to apply to these rural cases. These difficulties do not arise in the rural districts. I am happy to say that at this moment there are hundreds of women living in the cottages which their husbands occupied because they were shepherds or carters, or were engaged in occupations of that kind, and their employers have refused to turn them out and intend to keep them there. If the rural districts of the country only were concerned, you would not have this Bill at all. This Bill is intended to apply to urban and populous districts—to munition areas certainly— where you have got overcrowding and where there is no alternative accommodation to be got. One or two references have been made in the course of our Debates to free contracts between the owner and the tenant. What free contract is there if building is stopped?

I think that the right hon. Gentleman is now going outside the Amendment, and it shows, if I may say so, that I was wise in suggesting to the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Hohler) that the remarks he was making were rather more relevant to the Third Reading of the Bill.

I rose, and the right hon. Gentleman, with his usual courtesy, resumed his seat. The ground I put was that I thought the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman were going beyond the Amendment, and were more relevant to the Third Reading.

Certainly, and I am quite prepared to fall in with your ruling, but what I ask is why another speaker was called before I had concluded my remarks?

It is quite unnecessary. I did not understand. I should not have risen at all if it had not been for the reference made to me by my hon. and learned Friend in his speech. I have said all that I desired to say. All I ask the Committee to do is to regard this Amendment not as an ignoble surrender to some outside influence, but as a real desire to make the Bill effective.

I do not mind the lecture; it all comes from the part which I considered it my duty to fulfil. But the right hon. Gentleman's statement is a little startling, and if he will refer to the answer to the question I put to him on the 28th June last, he will see the ground for my describing this Bill as a munitions area Bill. It has been constantly so described in this House. But how does the right hon. Gentleman try to ride off. He says that London with its large population—

That is the very point to which I previously called the hon. and learned Member's attention, and in regard to which I also intervened when the right hon. Gentleman was speaking.

I tried to explain at the time, but the right hon. Gentleman would not give way. Surely it is most material to show that this Bill was so introduced into this House, and, until Clause 1 was abandoned—and I put my name down in favour of its abandonment in the interests of soldiers and sailors—that was its character. But I am entitled to point out that as it has been extended to the whole country—

Is the hon. and learned Member dealing with the Amendment before the Committee? Is he not rather replying to the right hon. Gentleman?

The hon. and learned Member is in order, in connection with this Amendment, in pointing out that while such an Amendment as this might have been relevant to a limited area, it is unfair, from his point of view, in its application to the whole country. What I wish the hon. and learned Member to do is to confine himself to that point, and not to talk about the Bill as introduced, or about the changes made in it, for those are points more relevant to a Third Reading speech.

I will endeavour to follow the ruling of the Chairman, and I will pass by, as irrelevant and immaterial, the attack which has been made upon me, because I am not allowed to answer it. But I do submit that this Bill was clearly a munitions area Bill as originally introduced. And it is my contention that when in Clause 1, which is now omitted, we find the words, "owing to the influx of population or other circumstances attributable to the present War," we are justified in so regarding it. You could not have had clearer words for the purpose. I complain that the right hon. Gentleman has neither answered nor endeavoured to answer the point I made against the Amendment that once the Bill is extended to the whole country it satisfies all the obligations which it was proposed should be undertaken by it. We have now left the question of housing accommodation in this country in the position in which it stood before the Bill was originally introduced, subject only to this, that we have restricted the right of the landlord to raise the rent, and, if he has raised it, we have reduced it to the pre-war standard. What more is required than that? Certain powers are given to the County Court judge, if he is satisfied on particular points. But how is one to know what is in the mind of a County Court judge, or what would be satisfactory to him? Very likely the thing that would be satisfactory to him would be favourable to the party which appointed him to the bench. I say, unhesitatingly, I regret this attempt to restrict the rights of a man with regard to his own property My right hon. Friend has not answered my point at all. There is no ground for this Amendment, and one would like to know why it was, and how it was, that, instead of the Amendment appearing on the Paper, it was arranged between the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member below the Gangway. That is not the way in which Amendments of such importance should be dealt with here. I repeat everything I have said with regard to it.

The Committee was not very full when the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division (Mr. Barnes) moved this Amendment, and I think it is advisable to call the attention of hon. Members to the words in which it was moved. I do so because they bear out to a very considerable extent the point made by my hon. and learned Friend. The hon. Member for Blackfriars moved this Amendment on the ground that there were certain people connected with an agitation against an increase of rents who, he was afraid, would be victimised. We have heard that expression often and often. Therefore he proceeds to move this Amendment which is to apply to the whole country. But there is no question of people all over the country Having heralded an agitation against an increase of rents, and there is no idea that anybody is going to be victimised. Are we, therefore, to alter the whole law of the land because the hon. Member thinks that two or three people in Glasgow may be turned out of their houses? These are the grounds on which the hon. Member moved his Amendment. He does not contradict me. He was perfectly clear in his statement.

I should like to be allowed to say I do not accept the hon. Baronet's interpretation, and it does not necessarily follow in this case that silence gives consent.

The hon. Gentleman might have the courage of his convictions. He either said the words or he did not. Seeing it is no ground for moving the Amendment that a few people in Glasgow entered into an unlawful agitation, I say my hon. and learned Friend is quite right in saying that on a flimsy ground of that character an Amendment of this nature ought not to be extended to the whole country.

May I be permitted to refer to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Hohler)? [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no!"] There was one point in his argument which seemed to me to require an answer. His main point seemed to be as to what would occur in farming districts, and the suggestion was made that where men employed on a farm, shepherds or carters, had gone to the War, a farmer might desire to turn the wives out of their cottages. The hon. Member suggested that the Amendment would give the women protection against such high-handed treatment. But if he advanced that argument, does it not clearly constitute a very good reason why such an Amendment as this should be introduced into the Bill? May I take this opportunity of congratulating the President of the Local Government Board on having dealt so faithfully with his hon. and learned Friend. The hon. and learned Gentleman may think that that reply was immaterial and irrelevant, but it seemed to us on these benches wholly relevant, very material, and thoroughly well done. The hon. and learned Gentleman went on to say that he was very doubtful how the matter would be treated in the Courts by such learned persons as County Court judges. He should have a greater knowledge of County Court judges than some of us who sit on these benches. So far as my knowledge extends, County Court judges are recruited from the ranks of the profession to which the hon. and learned Member belongs. I cannot congratulate him upon the view he takes of the sense of fairness of County Court judges. May I tell him that so far as we are concerned, although these gentlemen are recruited from his own profession, we are prepared to trust them, and we have no reason to believe that if a woman against whom eviction is threatened goes before the County Court judge justice will not be done. It may be that if another cottage is available, she may be asked to transfer to it, and she might consent. The Amendment is in essence the Amendment of my hon. Friend, and with the better draftsmanship that we have now in it by arrangement with the right hon. Gentleman, I do not see there is anything to which to object. We have the Amendment well drafted. It meets the case, and I trust the Government will adhere to it.

I venture to intervene only for a moment or two. My hon. and learned Friend below the Gangway (Mr. Hohler) certainly made a rather vigorous attack upon my right hon. Friend, and knowing him as we all do we knew he would reply to it in a manner which he thought was necessary to justify himself. Having heard this Debate, which has been rather interesting and not at all unimportant, I think there does appear to be a wide sympathy with the circumstances under which this Bill has been introduced and in which the Amendment has been proposed, and that being so I think we might come now to a decision upon it.

I desire to get an answer to one categorical question put to me by one of my Constituents in a letter which I received this morning. The case is as follows: A widow woman with a small income of about £50 a year is the owner of three houses. A short time ago she gave notice to the tenants of one of the houses to leave. They refused to go. Then she threatened to raise their rent, whereupon the tenants said they would go. The reason why she gave notice to these people that she intended to raise their rent was because she wanted to live in the house herself. Now, apparently, the tenants have an idea that owing to this Bill she will not be able to turn them out. It is a little hard that this woman—she is not at all well off—should have to go to the County Court to have the matter decided. Another point I wish to make is that the right hon. Gentleman in his speech talked about the stopping of building in country districts. Might I suggest to him that he should ask his Noble Friend Lord Selborne to give orders to the Board of Agriculture that they are not to try and stop building on settled estates?

The answer is that it would be for the County Court to say, under this Amendment, whether the desire of this lady to occupy the house was a satisfactory reason for raising the rent.

If that is so, surely it is very hard on the owner of the house to have to go to the County Court and pay the fees, and that she cannot occupy the house herself.

I suppose she has to go to the County Court. The point I want to make is that it is very hard indeed that the impression should go abroad that under this Bill people who want to occupy their own houses should have to go to the expense of going to the County Court in order to do so, and that there is an alteration in the law of the land made by this Bill which makes it impossible for people to occupy their own houses.

10.0 P.M.

The hon. Member who has just spoken has entirely forgotten the fact that the lady for whom he pleads, whether the Bill is passed or not, will still have to go to the County Court to get an eviction order. Therefore it is a little hard that he should endeavour to burden my right hon. Friend with the responsibility for that. I would advise, with the greatest respect, the lady to consult her solicitor. I came into the Committee when this Amendment was half discussed, so that I did not hear the preliminary part of the Debate. It seems to me that my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hohler) is making a very wrong complaint against the Government when he says that there has been some improper arrangement with hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway opposite because the right hon. Gentleman has accepted this Amendment, of which there was no notice on the Paper. It is a thing of which all private Members ought to be proud that they have a Government, especially in these times, who will consider sympathetically Amendments of private Members and adopt them when they think they are right. When I heard that complaint of my hon. and learned Friend it convinced me that there must be something in the Amendment, and the more I study it the more convinced I am that it is an Amendment which is necessary to the good working of this Bill. I think it goes too far. I see no reason why, in the circumstances under which we are passing this Bill, you should eject a tenant if he pays his rent. I should have thought that in these days that is all a landlord has a right to expect. Of course, one can conceive that there are other circumstances, if the tenant is undesirable either morally or in any other way, in which it is right that the landlord should have the right to eject him. The only criticism I pass is upon the wording of the Amendment. I am not certain that the Solicitor-General is responsible for it.

I rather gathered that he would disclaim the authorship. The Amendment appears to require a little further consideration. I want to effect, with as little litigation as possible, the object of the hon. Member for the Black-friars Division. The wording is not satisfactory, and I hope the Solicitor-General will reconsider it. It does not say anything about a County Court.

I admit that is the difficulty. You ought to confine it to the County Courts. The landlord who withes to threaten or bully a tenant will say, "I am going to take you to the Law Courts, or the High Court, and there will be all sorts of expense" Let us narrow it down, and let it go to the County Court, which is the poor man's Court, and keep the costs of litigation as low as possible. I also criticise the wording "may be deemed satisfactory." There is nothing to guide the judges in arriving at any judicial decision at all. I cannot associate myself with what my hon. and learned Friend said, which I do not think he meant, but it is a most difficult thing for a judge in arriving at a judicial decision to say whether it is satisfactory judicially or not unless there is something to guide him. I respectfully urge on the Solicitor-General that these words may be improved on Report.

I should like to support the suggestion which has been made by the hon. Member opposite. It seems to me that if you once accept the principle of this Amendment it is very important to see that it is not made the occasion for unnecessary litigation. The words as they now stand leave it open to a landlord to bring an action which is quite unnecessary. I cannot see why it should not be sufficient, as originally suggested, that a man should be safe from ejection so long as he continues to pay his rent and there is no breach of contract. Nothing more than that is necessary.

An HON. MEMBER: Immorality in the house.

That and other similar reasons. But, at any rate, let us have some clearer definition in the Clause than it contains at present. It seems to me that reasons satisfactory to the County Court judge will leave it open. I urge on the right hon. Gentleman that he should consider before the Report stage whether he cannot improve upon these words.

I and a colleague of mine have an Amendment down here. We agree that the Amendment of the hon. Member (Mr. Barnes) has made our Amendment even stronger.

The case in my mind, I think, is met by the Amendment, but I do not like it to be announced in the Committee that a landlord need only concern himself with the receipt of his rent. There are many cases in which tenants themselves go to the landlord and ask that another tenant should be requested to leave. That occurs repeatedly where some conduct on the part of one of the tenants induces his neighbours to ask for his removal. I quite agree that we should be more careful in war time than in peace time. I remember quite well in some houses that I formerly owned all the tenants in a long row of cottages petitioned for a certain man to be dismissed from living on the property because he played dance music on a harmonium on a Sunday. They were most sincere. They sent their children to Sunday school, and they thought this was a most diabolical performance. I am glad to say that my persuasive powers were equal to the occasion, but there are cases of a very different character where conduct in the house or in the adjoining precincts makes certain people very objectionable indeed. That is so particularly if the neighbours have children. There are cases of that kind, and why should not a landlord, with the support of all the other tenants, be able to get rid of an undesirable person? I understand the Amendment meets that, but the Amendment on the Paper did not, and that is why I suggest an alteration.

I think the Amendment really wants further consideration. As I understand it, there are at least three Courts which may be concerned in the matter as the law now stands. In the case of small houses there is the jurisdiction of the magistrates under an Act of the eighteenth century to make an order for possession, but if the rental exceeds a certain amount they have no longer jurisdiction, and the resort must be to the County Court. The third Court is the High Court, which is concerned with actions for ejectment, and it is necessary to have a defintion in which it is stated what the Court shall be in this Clause and elsewhere in the Bill, and it may also be very desirable to state the grounds on which a magistrate or the Court may refuse to make an Order.

:I hope, you, Sir, will not call me to order if I do not say a single word about the Amendment. I want to call the attention of the Committee to two facts. It is ten minutes past ten, and we are on Clause 2 of the Bill. Not only that, but it is the 8th of December, and Christmas is very near. There is a great deal to be done before Christmas, and therefore, perhaps, it is advisable, for the sake of the holidays and other things, that this Clause should be passed soon, and that we should not sit too late over this Bill. The other fact is that the country is at war, and Ministers have a great deal of other things to do than sitting in this House till long past ten at night. Really our function in this House is to offer restrained and reasonable criticism such as will help the Government, and not add to their burden by keeping them too long over Bills which are really in the interest of the country; and we might in that way help the country to win the War.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Subsection (3), after the word "paid" ["at the standard rate is paid"], insert the words, "and is not more than twenty-one days in arrear."—[ Mr. Prothero. ]

Leave out the words "of the mortgage" ["covenants of the mortgage are observed"], and insert instead thereof the words, "by the mortgagor (other than the covenant for the repayment of the principal money secured)."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

I beg to move, after the word "security" ["means of enforcing his security"], to insert the words, "or to take any steps for the recovery of the principal money secured."

This seems to me a very substantial Amendment, though it may be consequential on what is already passed. It seems to me that under it a good part of the Bill will be inoperative.

The effect of the Amendment is not to limit the Bill but to extend the Bill.

The Bill says he shall not "exercise any right of foreclosure." Will these words prevent the man from taking action for foreclosure which would have a deterrent effect upon the mortgagor. In the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act a man can sue for foreclosure, although he cannot enforce it. We do not want it to be in the power of a mortgagee to take these steps against the mortgagor, and I suggest between now and the Report stage that the right hon. Gentleman might consider whether some words can be put in to prevent the mortgagee from taking steps to bring an action for foreclosure.

( indistinctly heard ): I beg to move, in paragraph (3), after the word "provision" ["Provided that this provision"], to insert the words "shall not apply to executors or administrators of deceased persons and."

I have two Amendments on the Paper. The greater is the one I have moved, and the lesser is the second Amendment. I move this Amendment because it is necessary that executors should not be tied up if they are called upon on the one hand to pay Government duty and should be unable to realise the estate to pay for it. Therefore, they may have to incur high interest at a time during which they are obliged to postpone, because of this Act, the collection of the assets which may be the only asset besides furniture. It might mean the sale of the furniture at a ruinous rate. I suggest that the Government should accept, if possible, the first Amendment and that at any rate they should accept the second Amendment in order that the provision shall not apply to the execution or administration of persons dying after the 3rd August, 1914, where the principal money secured by mortgage is required for the payment of Estate or Legacy Duties or other sums due to the Crown. It seems to me that is only justice when you come to consider the position in which many executors or administrators may find themselves. I hope the Government will indicate its decision to accept one or other of my Amendments.

I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment. The hon. Member knows that executors can always borrow what they want. To put that upon them during the War will not be a great burden. They are protected against any suggestion that they have not done their duty.

I have an Amendment which deals more or less with the same subject. My Amendment sets out that this provision shall not affect the rights of the mortgagee in cases where, either by the death of parties or the necessity for realisation for payment of duty, or the management, or state of repair of the property, an order is made by a Court or judicial authority on application by one or other of the parties to call in the mortgage and realise the property mortgaged. I take it that that more or less applies to this case. I have had very strong representations from the Law Society of Liverpool in reference to this position. In the case of an estate where the testator has been lending money on mortgages and the only assets are mortgages you have Somerset House wanting to exact the Death Duties, and you have no means of paying them and no means of borrowing them. I do not know whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows what it is to borrow money at the present time. The banks of this country are by no means ready to lend. It is difficult to get anyone to lend. Then you have to pay interest at the rate of from 6 to 8 per cent. Therefore by this Bill, where the assets consist of mortgage property, you are placing this hardship on the trustees that they cannot realise and they cannot pay the duty. There is nothing in this Bill to relieve them. They cannot proceed under the Courts Emergency Powers Act. They are placed in the invidious position that it is practically impossible to realise the assets. I would ask the Government to look carefully into this case and see if they cannot do something to relieve the position. The Law Society of Liverpool are not a body who take up these things for the purpose of obstruction, but they have a practical knowledge of how to deal with estates, and they consider that it would be a great hardship if the position now being created was not remedied. I hope that the President of the Local Government Board will look carefully into the matter.

I was rather surprised to hear the suggestion thrown out that these gentlemen should borrow, because I understand that that is against the policy of the Government. The Government have a Treasury Committee sitting, and when people want to borrow money they say, "No, you must not go into the market. We want it all to carry on the War." Now we hear a different thing: you are to go and borrow money in competition with the State. I would suggest that, while a case has been made out by the last speaker, the Amendment should be made a little wider. Surely the case of the liquidator of a company should be considered as well as the administrators of deceased persons. Sometimes a liquidator has to make calls upon people who—

In view of the assent given by my right hon. Friend to the request of my hon. Friend (Sir J. Harmood-Banner), I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment. In reference to the observations of my right hon. and learned Friend, probably the sanctuary of Lincoln's Inn Fields has saved him from ever being driven out into the market to borrow money, and he knows nothing of the difficulties, especially in these troublous times. I think that the suggestion to borrow money has been given a little too readily. He cannot be aware of the pressure that occurs when a company attempts to borrow money at the present time. There is an old adage that the man who "goes a borrowing goes a sorrowing," especially at the present moment. I am very glad that the President of the Local Government Board will give this matter consideration. I have papers here which show that Somerset House have sent out a paper in red ink reminding executors that they must pay up promptly, so that if one branch of the Government are demanding payment I think facilities should be afforded by which the money can be raised.

I find I gave way too readily to the hon. and learned Member. I was dealing with this Amendment before the Committee, and not with the later one referred to by the hon. Gentleman opposite, and I find that the present Amendment does not say anything about Legacy Duty. I submit, therefore, that the point I was making—and I had nearly concluded —is one deserving the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman. The liquidator at the present time may make calls upon people who cannot possibly find the money, whereas if they could realise the mortgage it would give the shareholders time to pay up. If they cannot realise the mortgage to pay off the creditors, then the poor people in many cases may have to pay calls in respect of uncalled capital. I merely mention this that the Government may have all the facts before them.

I am sorry to hear that the Government propose to give consideration to this Amendment. If they do I think they will come to the conclusion, on reflection, that the Amendment is not very well drawn, because it provides that the provision is not to apply to the executors or administrators of deceased persons. I have listened to the speech of the hon. Member opposite, and I take it that he really means the executors and administrators of the deceased mortgagee— a very different matter. The executors or administrators may have borrowed money themselves, and if this is considered at all it ought to be limited to the executors or administrators of deceased mortgagees.

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), after the word "not" ["Provided that this Bill shall not"], to insert the words,

"apply to a mortgage where the principle money secured thereby is repayable by means of periodical instalments extending over a term of not less than ten years from the creation of the mortgage, nor shall this provision."

This provision deals with mortgages repayable by means of small instalments. There are mortgages spread over twenty or thirty years, or for considerable periods, and the mortgagor pays the instalments as he pays the interest; it is a small sum and does not fall heavily upon him. I think it is desirable to permit the payment of those small instalments. This may assist the case of building societies. In that case many of the members pay these mortgages in monthly or annual instalments, part principal and interest. The first instalments include more for interest and later ones more principal, and it would be difficult to apportion each sum.

I think this is a very necessary Amendment, but I should have thought fifteen years would have met the case. These loans are made by insurance companies, and frequently to local authorities, for drainage schemes or other undertakings, and are repaid by certain annual instalments. There is a rate levied to meet them, but the ratepayers do not know what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has just now stated, that in the earlier payments there is a large amount of interest, and as the loan is being paid off there is a larger amount of capital paid off and less interest. The whole thing is worked out on an actuarial basis, and it is acceptable to both sides. As a rule the periods are spread over fifteen or twenty or thirty years, but if the Government know cases of ten years, I do not object.

If this Amendment is carried the Solicitor-General will have to move to leave out the next two words, "shall not," in order to make it sense.

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), to leave out the words "date of the passing of this Act," and to insert instead thereof the words "twenty-fifth day of November, nineteen hundred and fifteen."

There is a feeling outside that this alteration should be made to prevent mortgagees taking proceedings against mortgagors since the First Reading of the Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (3), to insert the words, "or in cases where the mortgagor consents to the exercise by the mortgagee of the powers conferred by the mortgage."

The meaning of this Amendment is obvious. It may be to the mutual advantage of the mortgagor and mortgagee that the powers of foreclosure or of sale should be exercised, and if both agree, surely it ought to be allowed. Under the Courts Emergency Powers Act of last Session a creditor cannot proceed against a debtor without an order of the Court. I know a case where a debtor consented to the creditor taking his remedy, and yet a third person who had no interest whatever at the time, urged that, by reason of the non-compliance by application to the Court under that Act, the whole thing was void.

There is such a thing as undue pressure. I do not know whether that is guarded against in any way. These parties are not at all equal in making a bargain. I understand that one of the essential principles of the Bill was that there should be no contracting out, and now, when you come to mortgagors and mortgagees, you do not observe that principle. There may be other relations between the parties; I have a case in mind. I am not at all sure that the Bill will be worth anything in this respect if the amount is inserted.

Amendment agreed to.

I have a manuscript Amendment which I think should come here. I had put it down as a new Clause, but I understand it should be moved as an Amendment at this point. [The proposed new Clause was as follows:—

"If a mortgagee is advised by a qualified valuer that the value of the mortgaged property is less than the amount of the valuation obtained by or on behalf of the mortgagee prior to and with a view to the mortgage or (in case there be no such valuation) is less than the value which in the opinion of such valuer the property had at the date of the mortgage, then nothing in this Act shall prevent the mortgagee from requiring the mortgagor to reduce the sum owing on security of the mortgage to an amount bearing the same proportion to the then value of the property (as estimated by such valuer) as the original amount secured by the mortgage bore to the value of the property at the date of the mortgage (as appearing in such valuation or in default thereof as estimated by such valuer) and for this purpose exercising any powers of sale, foreclosure, or otherwise, which he could have exercised if this Act had not been passed."]

Has not the point raised by this Amendment been dealt with in the Amendments moved in my name?

I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (4).

A mortgage may include property which falls within the ambit of the Bill, and other property, such as a landed estate, larger houses or land, or something of that kind. The original scheme of the Bill was that in such a case as that the mortgage would be treated as divisible—treated, so to speak, as two mortgages. By way of avoiding that complication we propose an alternative scheme, which I propose to explain to the Committee. The alternative will be found in an Amendment in my name at a later stage of the Bill—namely, in Clause 3, where we propose, in Sub-section (4), after the word "apply" ["shall not apply to an equitable mortgage "], to insert "( a ) to any mortgage comprising one or more dwelling-houses to which this Act applies and other land if the rateable value of such dwelling-houses is less than one-tenth of the rateable value of the whole of the land comprised in the mortgage, or (, b )."

That means that where you have only a small portion of the land in mortgage is small property the Act will not apply at all. You can exercise your remedies wholly outside the Act. If one-tenth or upwards of the mortgage land falls within this Act then the Act will apply wholly, so that you will not be able to divide your mortgage. There is a special reason for that. Take the case under the Bill as it is drawn. The Bill prevents a mortgagee from calling in the mortgage on small property. It does not prevent him from calling in the mortgage on the remainder. It is just possible that he may use his power by putting pressure upon the tenant or the mortgagor. I do not say it will be done, but it may be done, and we are anxious to make it impossible.

I have an Amendment down to omit this Sub-section. It seems to me that the business the Government has marked out in it is almost impossible of execution. I may remind hon. Members who have not, I hope, any personal familiarity with the transaction, of the case in which a man borrows £100,000 or so on a little estate he has got in the country. That may include half a dozen houses of the kind which are privileged by this Bill, and the difficulty in dividing the mortgage and apportioning the mortgage money between those half dozen houses and the rest of the estate seems to me cumbrous, difficult, and perhaps almost impossible of calculation without great expense. Whether the alternative proposal of the Solicitor-General will effectively carry out and render simple and practicable this extremely difficult and dangerous operation I cannot pretend to say, but between this and the Report stage the Government and hon. Members will have the opportunity of considering the matter, and supporting the Government if they find their scheme is practicable.

I am painfully familiar with a case of this kind which has occurred within the last few days. Notice of a mortgage to be called in has been given in regard to a property in Lancashire which includes six cottages. The mortgage being for a good many thousand pounds, it is quite clear that only a fraction of it can be regarded as being on the security of the cottages, but notice has been given to call it in with a view to raising the mortgage interest from 5 per cent. to 6 per cent. It is a controlled establishment under the Ministry of Munitions. When they sought my advice I asked them to go to lawyers, and I believe counsel now have been asked to state a case on Sub-section (4), so that if we had only known a few days earlier a considerable amount in law costs might have been saved. In the Amendment which is substituted it is said the rateable value of the dwelling-house is less than one-tenth of the rateable value of the whole of the land. In one case it mentions the rateable value of the dwelling-house and in the other the rateable value of the whole of the land.

The intention is to confine it to land or buildings as distinct from other property, such as stocks.

It is a very important point, because it affects machinery. In this case the movable machinery is not part of the mortgage, but the fixed machinery is. I will raise that point when we come to deal with it in its proper place. I am not quite clear whether the case I have given can be met or not. I rather take it that it is outside the Bill. It is quite true there are only six people, and perhaps the works employ 700 or 800. But are not these six people entitled to consideration?

There would be no case of raising the rent. The right hon. Gentleman considers that no hardship will occur. At the same time, they are left without the protection of this Bill.

My hon. Friend is mistaken. Tenants would be protected just the same. It is only as between mortgagee and mortgagor.

Quite so; but it does come upon the tenants. The people are considering whether they can find room elsewhere. That is the difficulty. In this case the proprietors do not wish to do any harm to the tenants, but when the mortgagee can act it falls upon the firm, and they cannot deal with him without dealing with these few houses. However, I will raise it again later on.

I am not sure that the expression "rateable value" is a proper term to use here. For instance, in the case of short-term leasehold ground rents and cottages, if they were proposed in one mortgage, how would you get at the rateable value of the other parts?

I am very glad that the Government have decided to leave out this unworkable Sub-section. There are many instances in Scotland quite different from any that have been quoted which under the working of this Sub-section would be quite impossible. In the case of tenement property you have many cases where there are houses which would come under the provisions of this Bill, and at the same time there are premises cutside the lease. In these cases it would have been impossible to apportion the mortgage as proposed in this Sub-section. Now the Government propose in these subjects that the interest on mortgage is not to be raised except in the cases to which the Amendments apply. If that is so the mortgagor will be in this position, that not only in respect of property whose rents he will be prevented from raising, but in respect of the other subjects to which the Act applies and where the interest can be raised, the landlord should be able to raise the rent on the subjects covered by the mortgage. Surely the Government is bound in reason to introduce a provision that no landlord shall be entitled to raise the rent on any subject covered by a mortgage the interest on which cannot be raised as the result of the passing of this Bill. You should at least prevent the landlord from reaping an unjust advantage as the result of the passing of this Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

"Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I do not object to the Clause, and I take this opportunity of thanking those in charge of the Bill for the courtesy and the consideration they have shown us. I protest against the hon. Member on the other side who is Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, or something of that sort, and who, although we have night after night been discussing the Finance Bill, has not given us the value of his presence, coming here and giving us a lecture because he has been a Member of the House for twenty years or so. I feel perfectly sure that the courteous treatment we get from the Front Bench will have a much better reward than the rude remarks we get from the Back Bench.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 3.—(Interpretation and Application.)

(1) For the purposes of this Act:—

( a ) The expression "standard rent" means the rent at which the dwelling-house was let on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, or, where the dwelling-house

( b ) The expression "standard rate of interest" means in the case of a mortgage in force on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, the rate of interest payable at that date, or in the case of a mortgage created since that date the original rate of interest:

( c ) The expression "rateable value" means the rateable value on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, or in the case of a house or part of a house first assessed after that date, the rateable value at which it was first assessed.

(2) This Act shall not apply to any house the rateable value whereof exceeds forty pounds, but save as aforesaid shall apply to a house or a part of a house let as a separate dwelling (including any garden or other premises within the curtilage thereof) and situate in an area to which this Act is for the time being applied by Order in Council, where either the annual amount of the standard rent or the rateable value of the house or part of the house does not exceed—

( a ) in the case of a house situate in the administrative county of London, thirty pounds; and

( b ) in the case of a house situate else-where, twenty-one pounds;

and every such house or part of a house shall be deemed to be a dwelling-house to which this Act applies.

(3) Where for the purpose of determining the standard rent or rateable value of a dwelling-house to which this Act applies, it is necessary to apportion the standard rent or rateable value of the property in which that dwelling-house is comprised, a County Court may, on application by either party, make such apportionment as seems just, and the decision of the Court as to the amount to be apportioned to the dwelling-house shall be final and conclusive.

(4) This Act shall apply to every mortgage of real property where the mortgaged property consists of or comprises one or more dwelling-houses to which this Act applies, except that it shall not apply to an equitable mortgage or charge by deposit of title deeds or otherwise.

(5) This Act shall apply only to the rent payable by a tenant in actual occupation of the premises and to mortgages by the immediate landlord of such tenant:

Provided that where this Act has become applicable to the rent payable by any tenant, or to the rate of interest payable under any mortgage, it shall continue to apply thereto notwithstanding that the dwelling-house is subsequently sublet by the tenant.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "Act" ["For the purposes of this Act"], insert the words "except where the context otherwise requires."— [ Sir G. Cave. ]

The Amendment of the hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Hohler)—in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), after the word "means" ["The expression 'standard rent' means"], to insert the words "in a case in which the rent has not been increased before the twenty-fifth day of November, nineteen hundred and fifteen"—is, I think, consequential on some other proposal.

It is part and parcel of another Amendment. I propose to ask, where the rent has been increased before 25th November, that an increase not exceeding 6d. per week may be allowed on the pre-war rent. If this is not allowed I believe that great hardship will be inflicted on a good many persons.

Then it really is a question which we have decided not once, but twice over on the preceding Clause. We had, for instance, a proposal to allow an increase of 5 per cent. on the pre-war rent, and another proposal to allow 6 per cent. on the capital value. I cannot allow an unlimited number of proposals of that kind.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph ( a ), after the word "means" ["The expression 'standard rent' means"], to insert the words "in a, case in which the rent has not been increased before the twenty-fifth day of November, nineteen hundred and fifteen."

This Amendment is different. The President of the Local Government Board, on the Second Reading, said that if we were to allow an increase of 6d. it would be really enabling everybody to raise their rents by 6d., and would thus create a new standard for rents. This Amendment is drawn to prevent that very thing. It is drawn so as only to allow the increase in the case of a person who has raised the rent before the 25th November. It allows no increase to anybody who has not raised the rent before the 25th November. It therefore does draw the very distinction, and meets the very point which my right hon. Friend made. I submit that this Amendment differs from those which have already been before this Committee.

It is, of course, obviously impossible to deal now with the Amendment proposed. Perhaps I might take this opportunity of saying, on behalf of the Prime Minister, that we propose tomorrow to take the Third Reading of the Finance (No. 3) Bill as the first Order— we hope that will last only a very short time, owing to the long Debates which have already taken place—and then this Bill as the second Order, suspending the Eleven o'clock Rule in the hope that, with the general consent of the House, we may finish the Bill to-morrow.

It being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair, to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Thursday).

Education (Small Population Grants) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

I hope the House will consent to give this Bill a Second Reading. The object very briefly is to stereotype—

I object. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman is not aware that notice has been given to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule to-morrow, and I do not think he will have any difficulty in getting the Second Reading then.

May I appeal to my hon. Friend. I have been through the Bill carefully, and I believe we may safely give it a Second Reading.

My hon. Friend is such a faddist that I cannot follow him.

Second Reading deferred until Tomorrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Two minutes after Eleven of the clock.