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Commons Chamber

Volume 76: debated on Thursday 9 December 1915

House of Commons

Thursday, December 9, 1915

Board of Education

Copy presented of Reports from Universities and University Colleges in Great Britain which are in receipt of Grant from the Board of Education, 1913–14. Vols. I. and II. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Public Retrenchment

Copy presented of Second Report of the Committee on Retrenchment in the Public Expenditure [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Superannuation Act, 1887

Copy presented of Treasury Minute, dated 29th November, 1915, granting a Retired Allowance to Mr. Herbert Albert Collins, Architect, His Majesty's Office of Works, under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Exchange of Incapacitated Prisoners

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why no steps have been taken through the aid of the Ambassadors of neutral nations to bring about an exchange of prisoners of war; and whether he proposes to take such steps and when?

Exchanges of British and German incapacitated prisoners of war have been taking place for some time past through the intermediary of the United States Ambassadors in London and Berlin. Whether any further proposals are desirable can only be decided in consultation with the War Office.

Greece

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the sitting of the Greek Chamber of 3rd November, and to a statement made by M. Venizelos in addressing M. Gounaris, that in the spring of this year the latter had received a dispatch from London on the part of an official personage, who was not the Greek Minister in London, transmitting a confidential communication from the then Chancellor of the Exchequer relating what had passed at the Cabinet Council, and in which statement M. Venizelos charged M. Gounaris with considering this dispatch as unworthy of attention because it did not emanate from the Minister of Foreign Affairs; can he state whether such a communication was made; and, if so, for what reasons this procedure was adopted?

My right hon. Friend has no record of such an interview, and cannot, after such a long interval, say what the statement quoted by the hon. Member alludes to.

Does the Noble Lord mean the present Minister of Munitions or the Foreign Secretary?

The question is addressed to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.

Will the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs reply to the question: Whether the Minister of Munitions sent such a dispatch or participated in sending such a dispatch?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the debate in the Greek Chamber on 3rd November, and to the statement made by M. Gounaris that, in reply to the soundings sent to the Governments of the three Allies as to the participation by Greece in the first attack on the Dardanelles, one of the Powers replied that such participation would not be in harmony with public opinion in his country from the moment when she had as goal the conquest of the capital of the neighbouring empire, and to the statement in reply of M. Venezelos that he knew that one of the Powers was not favourably disposed towards the participation of Greece in the enterprise; and can he say whether the opposition of this Power has been withdrawn; and, if so, at what date?

There is in the Foreign Office a report of this debate. As regards the last part of the question, I have no reason to suppose that any of the Allied Powers would object to Greek cooperation against the common enemy.

Sir Eyre Crowe

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the official position held by Sir Eyre Crowe in the Foreign Office; and whether this official has any relatives fighting in the German Army?

Sir Eyre Crowe is an Assistant Under-Secretary. My right hon. Friend has expressed his great sense of the value of Sir E. Crowe's services in the public interest. The attacks made upon him are resented not only by my right hon. Friend, but by the whole of the Foreign Office and by everyone who works with Sir E. Crowe, and my right hon. Friend must ask the House to support him in declining to, answer any questions which are obviously connected with the attacks that have appeared in the Press.

Mexico

asked whether His Majesty's Government has now formally recognised the existing de facto Government of the Republic of Mexico, of which General Carranza is the chief executive?

Persia

Southern Trade Routes

asked whether the Swedish officers of the Persian gendar- merie who have lately revolted had been, or at the time of their defection were, in receipt of pay provided by His Majesty's Government; and what is the total amount of money that has been advanced to Persia for the upkeep of this gendarmerie since the formation of the force?

His Majesty's Government and the Government of India, in the hope of securing the safety of the Southern trade routes, have on several occasions made joint advances to the Persian Government for the upkeep of the Persian gendarmerie.

Thus, £25,000 was advanced in 1912 for the gendarmerie in Southern Persia, £100,000 in 1913 for the Fars gendarmerie, and £50,000 in 1914 for the gendarmerie in Fars and Kerman.

In addition to this the conditions of the joint Anglo-Russian Loan of 1912 for £200,000 contained a stipulation that a "considerable portion" of the advance should be devoted to the organisation of the gendarmerie with the assistance of Swedish officers.

I have no information as to whether the salaries drawn by the officers of the gendarmerie at the time of their defection were derived from the above sources or from other and more recent revenues of the Persian Government.

How many of the Swedish officers and how many of the men remained loyal to the Persian Government?

asked whether His Majesty's Government will now arrest the German Consul, bank manager, postmaster, and other Germans on the British concession at Shameen, in China, and detain them in custody at Hong Kong till the British Consul, superintendent of telegraphs, bank manager, and other British subjects arrested at Shiraz and detained in custody by the German emissaries in Persia are released and conducted safely to Bushire?

I have nothing to add to the answers given to the hon. Member for Wirral on Tuesday.

Does that mean that in the conditions it is impossible to take the action suggested?

I am afraid that I cannot carry it any further. I understand that on Tuesday my right hon. Friend answered the question of the hon. Member for Wirral.

Had that any connection with this at all? Is not the other a quite separate thing?

If the answer given does not answer the question, perhaps my hon. Friend will communicate with me and explain what further point he wishes to have cleared up.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether about five years ago Major Stokes, an English officer, was appointed by the Persian Government to organise and command the constabulary throughout Persia; and whether the difficulties, which caused the resignation of Major Stokes, were in any degree due to the attitude of the Government of Persia?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; that to the second part, in the negative. Major Stokes was offered an appointment, the object of which was the organisation of a gendarmerie force to assist the Persian Treasury officials in the collection of direct taxes throughout Persia. His Majesty's Government considered at the time that it would be inconsistent with the spirit of the Anglo-Russian Convention to support an appointment the effect of which would be to invest a British officer with certain executive and military powers within the Russian zone in Persia. Major Stokes was therefore induced by His Majesty's Government not to accept the appointment.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Shah's Government has failed to fulfil the promises given to the representatives of England and Russia and has allowed the German agents to transport from Teheran to Hamadan a huge quantity of bombs, maxims, rifles, cartridges, and other military supplies?

As my right hon. Friend stated in reply to the hon. Member's question of the 7th inst., the Persian Government have already endeavoured to take effective measures at Hamadan, where there was reason to believe the Germans had stored a large amount of war material. Some of this material may, indeed, have been brought clandestinely from Teheran, but the greater amount must have been smuggled over the Turkish border.

May I point out that that is not an answer to the question? The question was put down again to-day at the request of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who said that he would give a full answer. The point of the question is: whether it is true that the Shah's Government failed to fulfil the promise given to the representatives of England and Russia, and allowed this huge quantity of warlike stores to be transported to Hamaden?

I regret very much that the question has not been answered. I am afraid that I could not answer it without further consideration. If the hon. Gentleman will, be so kind as to put it down again for Monday I will take care that it is properly answered.

Is there or is there not a large and well-equipped army at Hamadan under German command?

I will certainly make inquiry. Perhaps my hon. Friend will put down a question.

Trade With Denmark

Re-Exports to Germany

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, having regard to the fact that an alleged official summary of the points of the agreement concluded between His Majesty's Government and certain associations of trade in Denmark has already been made public in that country and republished in Great Britain, he will consider the advisability of stating in what respects the summary in question is inaccurate?

I have not yet had an opportunity of seeing the statement as to the scope of the agreement which has, I believe, been published in Denmark. The summaries which have appeared in the Press of this country are both incomplete and misleading, but, short of publishing the whole agreement, it would be impossible to indicate satisfactorily in what respects these summaries are misleading. As I have already stated, in the public interests the publication of the agreement is undesirable.

I beg to give notice that I shall call attention to this question on the Adjournment.

Will the Noble Lord explain why a document circulated freely in Denmark can be more accessible to Germany if published here?

I have no reason to suppose that the document has been circulated freely in Denmark.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the agreement between His Majesty's Government and the representatives of the Merchants' Guild, Copenhagen, and the Industrial Association of Denmark contains any provision with regard to the export of barley, millers' offal, or other feeding-stuff from this country to Denmark and the export of bacon from Denmark to this country; and, if so, whether he can state the terms of the agreement so far as these articles are concerned?

I have already explained the reasons which preclude His Majesty's Government from announcing the provisions of the agreement. I may, however, say that under enactments which have been in force in Denmark for a long time, and remain in force, the export from that country of all animal feeding-stuffs is absolutely prohibited. The export of bacon from Denmark to this country is in no way affected by the agreement.

Recruiting

Royal Irish Constabulary

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether an English gentleman residing in Tralee, and occupying the position of district inspector of the Irish Constabulary of that town, has applied to be relieved of his present duties in order to serve with the Colours; if so, will he say why was his application not complied with; and will he arrange for the duties of all district inspectors of constabulary of military age to be discharged by the more experienced head constables and permit the 160 out of the total of 190 district inspectors to be free to volunteer for service with the Colours?

The district inspector at Tralee has not applied for permission to join the Army. Apart from other objections to the course suggested in the concluding part of the question, more than 100 of the district inspectors in the Royal Irish Constabulary are over military age.

Skilled Agriculturists (Ireland)

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) (1) what measures, if any, have been taken by the Department corresponding to those taken by the Board of Agriculture in England to prevent recruiting among skilled agriculturists and to restore to agriculture any skilled agriculturists who have been improperly recruited in contravention of the policy of increasing tillage; and (2) what measures the Department is taking corresponding to those taken in this country to exempt men skilled in essential industries from recruiting, and to have any improperly recruited restored to those industries; and if he will have the young fishermen, Hugh Gill and Joseph Folan, who were recruited under threat of compulsion off the Arran Isles on the 26th November, restored to that occupation under the rules in force in this country?

The Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction are not aware of Irish agriculture having suffered through the recruiting which has already taken place. The Department have the position of agriculture in this and all other aspects as affected by the War under careful review. I find upon inquiry that Hugh Gill and Joseph Folan enlisted in the Army voluntarily, having of their own accord put out in a boat from the Arran Islands to join the steamer which had the recruiting party aboard.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whose decision it is under which certain industries are protected against recruiting in this country, while in Ireland they are left to only the most general consideration?

I do not think that there is any occasion to be particularly anxious on the subject of denuding Irish agriculture of men by recruiting. If there is, the matter will be carefully considered by the Department of Agriculture.

Compulsory Service

asked the Attorney-General whether magistrates in this country are treating agitation against Conscription as prejudicial to recruiting; and, if so, whether any men are in prison for having agitated against Conscription?

So far as I am able to ascertain, there is no ground for the suggestion contained in the first part of the hon. Member's question, and the second part, therefore, does not arise.

Have Members of Parliament any immunity from punishment for discouraging recruitment? Have they any immunity in this behalf?

Bishop of Limerick

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether it was by direction of the Censor or of the Undersecretary at Dublin Castle that the recent public letter of the Bishop of Limerick was suppressed by the West British Press in Ireland; and will he specify the grounds for the suppression?

No direction at all was issued to the Press in Ireland on this subject.

Irish Volunteers

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will state the evidence in his possession showing that the Irish Volunteers have endeavoured to foment disloyalty to Ireland?

The evidence that the Irish Volunteers have endeavoured to foment disloyalty in Ireland is voluminous, and much of it must be known to the hon. Member from the utterances of the leaders of the organisation, from the articles and letters in its official organ, and from the reports of proceedings against its officers and organisers, to which the hon. Member has himself at various times made reference. I do not think it advisable further to disclose the details of my information in the matter

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question on the Paper, which refers to disloyalty to Ireland.

Questions

Trading With the Enemy

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will state for what reasons, there was inserted in the Trading with the Enemy Proclamation, of 9th September, 1914, the proviso that where an enemy has a branch locally situated in British, Allied, or neutral territory, not being neutral territory in Europe, transactions by or with such branch shall not be treated as transactions by or with an enemy; whether the effect of this proviso is or may be to enable persons in England to-trade with German enemies carrying on a branch of their business in the United States, and thereby to enable such German enemies to make profits which can be transmitted to their head office in Germany; and, seeing that a further effect of this provision is or may be to enable persons in England to trade with German enemies carrying on a branch of their business in England and thereby to enable such German enemies to make profits which are being kept in safe custody till the end of the War, whether, in view of these and other consequences, he will advise His Majesty to issue a proclamation repealing this proviso?

It is hardly possible to discuss the matters raised by the hon. and learned Member by means of question and answer, but an opportunity will be given for their full discussion on the Second Reading of the Trading with the Enemy (Extension) Bill, which was introduced yesterday by~ my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs.

Aliens (Deportation)

asked the Home Secretary (1) whether he will state how many citizens of neutral countries have been deported without trial from this country since 4th August, 1914, how many of these have been men and how many women; (2) whether, under the Defence of the Realm Acts or the regulations made thereunder or otherwise, British citizens have been deported from the United Kingdom since the outbreak of war; if so, in how many cases; and (3) whether any citizens of allied countries have been deported, without trial, from the United Kingdom since the outbreak of the War, and, if any, will he say how many of these were male and how many female?

No British subjects have been deported; the figures as regards subjects of allied or neutral States are:—Allies, 81, of whom 8 were females; neutral, 17, all males. I do not think it desirable to enter into explanations as to the reasons for the deportation of these persons or generally as to the steps taken to remove from this country aliens of whatever nationality whom it is not desirable to retain here in time of war.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain the statement that no British subjects have been deported, in view of the fact that numerous Irish Volunteers have been banished from Ireland altogether?

My statement is perfectly correct, that no British subject has been deported from the United Kingdom.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say how he accounts for the deportation or banishment of Irishmen to America, if Ireland is still a part of the United Kingdom?

Nobody, so far as I know, has been banished from Ireland to America. It may well be that somebody has been moved from Ireland to some other portion of the United Kingdom.

Have those persons against whom the policy of deportation has been adopted any right of appeal either to their Consuls or to any other authority?

Censorship

asked the Home Secretary whether he has carried out his expressed intention to visit France to consider with the military staff abroad any possible changes in the providing and censoring of news from the front; and whether any changes in the conduct of the official Press Bureau are in operation or in contemplation?

I have recently had the advantage of meeting in this country officers of the General Staff in France who are responsible for these matters, and some proposals I made to them are under consideration. I am able, however, to make one announcement forthwith. In order to secure a more regular supply of news from the Western Front, a daily communiqué from General Headquarters is promised, and I understand arrangements are being made to begin to issue it next week.

J. I. T. Lincoln (Extradition)

asked the Home Secretary whether Mr. J. I. T. Lincoln has been extradited from the United States; if not, whether his extradition is to be shortly expected; and, if and when he is extradited, whether he will be charged with espionage or only with that offence of forgery for which his extradition has been demanded?

The extradition of Lincoln has not yet taken place, and I cannot say when the American proceedings will be concluded. He will not and cannot be charged in this country with any offence committed before his extradition other than those in respect of which extradition is granted, and espionage forms no part of the charges on which his extradition is claimed.

Police Investigations

asked the Home Secretary whether detectives have been sent to the house of a certain person for the purpose of inquiring whether he was visited by Mr. C. H. Norman; and, if so, by whose instructions and under what authority has this kind of espionage upon British subjects been instituted?

It is the duty of the police to make such investigations as may be required in the public interest, and in the discharge of this duty it may often be necessary to make inquiries respecting persons who may be perfectly innocent. It is in this way that suspicions are frequently dispelled. I have no reason to suppose the police have exceeded their duty in the matter in question, and it is wrong to describe their action as espionage.

Aircraft Raids

asked the Home Secretary whether he has decided to give notice by telephone to schools in the London district of the approach of hostile aircraft?

No, Sir. The London educational authority has issued instructions as to what should be done in the schools in the event of an attack by air occurring during school hours.

Munitions

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, prior to issuing the recent Order affecting London, the Board of Liquor Control consulted the Metropolitan borough councils regarding the need for such an Order; if not, why such evidence was not sought; and can he state whether any of the borough councils have since made representations to the Board of Control regarding the stringent terms of the Order?

I understand from the Central Control Board that the Metropolitan borough councils were not represented at the conference held prior to the making of the Board's London Order. It was considered that the licensing justices throughout the county and the London County Council were the appropriate authorities to consult for the purpose. I am informed that two Metropolitan borough councils have communicated to the Board their dissent from the Order.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether steps will be taken to ascertain what are the views of the local public affected before the Central Board of Liquor Control schedules other districts than those with which it has already dealt?

The Central Control Board inform me that they make it a general rule to hold inquiries before scheduling any area, and that at these inquiries opportunity is given for leading sections of local opinion to state their views. The Board will not make any Order affecting any new area without consulting interested parties in the locality, such as naval and military authorities, police, local government and licensing authorities, leading employers, trade union organisations, and the licensed trade.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that there is a feeling in some areas, at any rate, that the exceptional powers given to the Board are used unnecessarily to the detriment of the liquor trade?

I took the trouble to find out the steps they are taking, and I am sure the Board have taken in every case the greatest pains to ascertain local opinion and requirements. Before issuing any Order they have con' suited with masters and men, they have consulted the police, the licensing authorities, the local authorities—

An HON. MEMBER: The liquor trade?

They always intimate to the liquor trade their intention to make an Order in any given district before it is made. I specially asked this question. They always send an intimation and that gives the liquor trade an opportunity of sending their case to the Commissioners. There has never been a case in which the Board have refused to hear a petition from the local liquor trade, or to hear any representations they wish to make.

asked the Minister of Munitions if, whilst the hours for the sale of intoxicating liquor have been reduced from 17 hours to 5½ per day, the licence holders will be entitled to a corresponding rebate of Licence Duty if they open their premises for the sale of refreshments which do not require a licence?

If, as I assume to be the case, the hon. Baronet refers to licence holders whose hours of sale of intoxicating liquor are reduced by Orders made by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), such licence holders will, after the passing of the Finance (No. 3) Bill, be entitled to the repayment of Licence Duty provided for in Clause 17 of the Bill; and the fact that the licensed premises are kept open for the sale of refreshments other than intoxicating liquor will not affect the title to the repayment.

asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that a widespread belief exists in the Midlands that the restrictions imposed on the sale of intoxicating liquor by the Board of Control are not in accordance with the weight of evidence and recommendation tendered by employés and others who were consulted at the Birmingham inquiry; and will he state what additional evidence had been taken subsequent to the inquiry which induced him to impose restrictions more drastic than appear to be warranted by the evidence taken at the above inquiry?

If the hon. Member will state in what particulars the restrictions imposed on the sale of intoxicating liquor in the Midlands are not in accordance with the weight of evidence tendered by employés and others who were consulted at the Birmingham inquiry I will refer the matter to the Central Control Board.

I may take this opportunity of stating that the result of the restrictions imposed was to reduce the number of prosecutions in Birmingham for drunkenness in the first week from eighty-four to fifteen.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he will ask the Liquor Traffic Central Control Board to publish a Report in each case where they publish an Order for restrictions of hours, giving the reasons which have guided them in making the Order, with special reference to the hours fixed in the particular locality and the manufacture of munitions within its area?

I do not think any useful purpose would be served by complying with the suggestion of the hon. Member.

Housing Scheme (Coventry)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the Ministry of Munitions is contributing to the cost proposed to be incurred by the corporation of Coventry towards a scheme for the housing of munitions workers at or near Stoke Heath; whether the corporation has acquired land for that scheme; and, if so, what is the area of that land; what was the price paid for it; and what was being taken as its annual value for rating when the negotiations began?

The Ministry of Munitions are not contributing to the cost of the site, but only to the cost of the houses, streets, and sewers. The corporation is acquiring about 50 acres of land for the purposes of the scheme, and the price to be paid for it is £200 an acre. I have no information as to its annual value for rating when the negotiations began.

Complaint by Girl Workers

asked the Minister of Munitions if his attention has been drawn to the report of a case where girls employed in munition work were improperly treated by a foreman and appealed for their discharge from that firm as the most adequate means of redress; that, as the tribunal was composed only of men, the girls could not properly state their case; and will he, in view of the number of women and girls that are now employed in munition work, arrange that at least one woman shall be appointed on every munition tribunal?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given yesterday to the hon. Member for North Somerset. The Bill about to be introduced will provide for a woman assessor in cases-affecting women.

Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for the publication of the report as to munition workers before the introduction of the Bill?

I will consider that. The Bill is to be introduced to-day and I hope it will be in the hands of Members on Saturday.

Before the Second Reading then. Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider it important that the House should be informed of the conditions before they discuss the Bill?

I think I shall have to confer with the Admiralty, as it concerns them, perhaps, more than any other Department.

Earnings of Workers

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that certain controlled establishments, by transferring workers from piece work to time work, have diminished the earnings of the workers, in some cases over 50 per cent., for the same output; and whether, in view of his promise to exercise his powers, if necessary, in order to prevent a reduction of piece rates as a consequence of increase of output due to suspension of restrictions, he proposes to take any steps in this matter?

If my hon. Friend will give me any specific instances of the nature described by him I will inquire into them. I may, however, point out that the promise referred to in the latter part of the question would not appear to have any direct bearing on such cases.

Machine Tool Manufacturers

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that at a meeting of munitions manufacturers, summoned by him on 11th November, at the Whitehall Rooms, to discuss in confidence matters of national importance, there was present Mr. J. G. W. Gruban, a native of Germany, naturalised on 2nd September, 1914, after the outbreak of war; whether he has received letters protesting against this gentleman's presence; and whether, in view of the feeling created, he will explain why an invitation was sent to him?

The statements in the first two parts of the question are substantially correct. Mr. Gruban is a director of the firm of Haigh, Gruban and Company, Limited, and I understand that a general invitation to be represented at the meeting was sent to his firm, in common with all other controlled firms engaged in the manufacture of machine tools.

Controlled Establishments (Canteens)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he can state to what extent controlled establishments have been provided with food canteens; to what extent might workers can be supplied with soup, hot milk, tea, coffee, sandwiches, and other refreshments; and whether, in view of the importance of the matter from the standpoint of the health and efficiency of the workpeople, he can state what steps are being taken to make universal the arrangements by which munition workers can be supplied with sustaining food and drink?

It is difficult to reply to the inquiry of my hon. Friend sufficiently fully within the limits of an answer, but I shall take an early opportunity of making a statement on the matter. The subject is being actively and comprehensively dealt with, and I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of a circular respecting canteens which has been issued to all controlled establishments. I fully share my hon. Friend's view as to the importance of the matter from the point of view of health, efficiency and temperance.

Remuneration of Women (Messrs. Beardmore and Company)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that Messrs. William Beardmore and Company, Limited, Glasgow and Paisley, a controlled firm under the Munitions of War Act, have declined to adopt the recommendations issued by the Ministry as to the remuneration of women on work customarily done by men; whether he is aware that this firm declines to recognise or negotiate with the National Federation of Women Workers, a registered trade union, representing the large majority of the women employés; that a request, made on 13th October by this organisation, for arbitration under Part I. of the Munitions Act, has been ignored; and whether, in view of the dissatisfaction existing in consequence amongst the employés of this firm, he proposes to take any action?

Officers of the Ministry have been and are in communication with the firm with a view to the adoption of the recommendations referred to. I may also refer my hon. Friend to the provisions of the Bill to amend the Munitions of War Act, which is being introduced this afternoon.

Questions

Soldiers' and Sailors' Estates

asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether letters of probate granted in Ireland to the representatives of Irish soldiers and sailors dying on active service, and whose estates include balances of undrawn pay at their credit with any of the recognised firms of Army and Navy agents in London require to be re-sealed in the English Probate Court on the ground that pay to an Irish officer for services rendered to the Empire is distinctively English estate?

Irish probates and letters of administration require to be re-sealed in England for the purpose of making title to assets in England, and it is upon this principle that English bankers act in reference to balances in their hands belonging to deceased Irish soldiers.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he considers it practicable for his Department to make arrangements with the various Navy agents and bankers which would obviate the hardship involved by the existing requirement that the confirmation granted by the Courts in Scotland to the executors of a Scottish naval officer dying on active service, and whose estate includes £5 of undrawn pay at his credit with an English Navy banker, must be resealed in the English Probate Court on the ground that Imperial pay is peculiarly English estate; whether the Admiralty have objected to such Navy bankers frequently waiving this requirement; whether his Department itself makes no such requirement in respect of undrawn pay which has not been paid over to such a banker and remains in the position of a naval asset?

My hon. Friend appears to have based the first two parts of his question on a misconception, as all payments to naval officers (or their representatives on written authority) are made either by the Admiralty or else by naval accountant officers, payment in no circumstances being initiated by outside agents. The amounts paid to officers' agents or bankers under power of attorney or written authority automatically cease to be naval assets, and in consequence are altogether outside Admiralty control and jurisdiction. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he intends to take any steps, legislative or other, to relieve the estates of officers and men belonging to Scottish regiments and dying on active service for the Empire from the hardship involved in the existing requirement of English law that, in the event of such a deceased's estate, including £5 of undrawn pay at an English Army banker's, the confirmation granted in Scotland must be resealed in the English Probate Court; whether he is aware that English Army bankers sometimes dispense with this requirement, and would willingly be authorised to dispense with it altogether; and whether there are any recognised firms of Army bankers other than the well-known English firms to which Scottish officers and men can resort so as to avoid this hardship?

I am considering what steps, if any, can be taken in this matter. To deal with the matter by legislation will, as the hon. Member will realise, raise a rather wide question of probate law, and the difficulty, as I understand, does not always arise in practice.

Political Prosecutions (Ireland)

asked the Attorney-General for Ireland if he will state the authority for the practice according to which, in political cases in Ireland, every Court treats the threatening of a witness as contempt of Court when done on the side of the public, but not when done on the- Crown side; and whether he will bring under the notice of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland the refusal of Mr. Drury, police magistrate, in the Dyer case, to protect a witness from the threats of Mr. Robertson, Crown Prosecutor?

There is no such distinction as is suggested in the question. In the case referred to no contempt of Court was committed by Mr. Robertson, who, on the contrary, conducted the prosecution with great propriety.

asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether the only document on which Patrick Dyer was. charged was an anti-Conscription document which he admitted on his arrest at Tubbercurry and has never denied; whether that document, described in the charge as intended to prejudice recruiting, was the only thing proved against him; why he was arrested, brought to Dublin, imprisoned and tried there, for an act which he admitted at Tubbercurry; and whether the entire time he has been in custody will be counted as part of the month to which he has been sentenced?

The evidence against Dyer showed that the defendant was responsible for the preparation and publication (by posting and otherwise) of notices calculated to prejudice recruiting and for calling and holding a meeting for the like purpose. Dyer was arrested and brought to Arbour Hill military prison at Dublin at the instance of the military authorities, and Dublin was the most appropriate venue. The period between the arrest and sentence does not count in the calculation of the month's imprisonment imposed.

Was the only evidence produced against this man a document the authorship of which he acknowledged?

Defence of the Realm Losses Commission (Liquor Trade)

asked whether the powers of the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission include the assessment and payment of losses caused to brewers, spirit manufacturers, and licensees by the various Orders of the Liquor Trade Board or not; and whether, in order to allay controversy and put the question beyond doubt, some plain announcement can be made on the matter?

His Majesty's Government are of opinion that Regulations which are of general application and are made for purposes of national necessity ought not to be regarded as justifying compensation, but that individual and exceptional interference is so regarded. I would also refer the hon. Member in this connection to the provisions for repayment of Licence Duty in the Finance (No. 3) Bill.

Cost of Soldiers

asked the Prime Minister what portion of the £250 to £300 a year that he has estimated to be the cost of a soldier is to be attributed to pay and allowance in the case of a private?

As my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office explained in the House on the 18th November, the figure of £250 to £300 a year has no reference to the cost of the individual soldier, but is a rough-and-ready method of expressing the cost of the War in relation to the strength of the Army. The pay of a private soldier varies from £18 to £57 a year, and in War, generally speaking, he has no allowances in cash.

Near East (Debate)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the rapidity with which events are developing in Serbia, Montenegro, and Albania, and considering the repercussion which will follow in adjoining neutral countries, he will give facilities before the House rises for Christmas for a general debate on the question of the Near East?

I am afraid that I can add nothing to the answer which I gave to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy on 6th December.

My point is that the present condition of Serbia is due to incompetence and delay on the part of the military and diplomatic authorities.

Law Officers' Remuneration

asked whether any arrangement has been made for reducing the remuneration of the Law Officers of the Crown during the War?

An arrangement has been concluded with the Law Officers. If. the hon. Member desires any further information, perhaps he would put down a question to the Attorney-General.

Army (Vote for Men)

asked the Prime Minister whether he intends to propose a Vote to increase, the number of men in the Army; if so, when this Vote will be proposed; and whether the whole policy of the Government in all areas of the War will be fully explained when this Vote is moved?

A Vote will be proposed next week. I cannot anticipate-the statement that will then be made.

Railway Wagons (Repairs)

asked whether he can say whether there are 10,000 railway wagons out of commission on account of need of repairs; whether the railway companies are experiencing difficulty in storing them; and whether it would be possible to release men temporarily from the ranks to make the adequate repairs?

The Railway Executive Committee inform me that they are not aware that any unusually large number of wagons is at present out of commission.

Sulphate of Ammonia

asked the hon. Member for Oswestry, as representing the War Trade Department, whether he can state the amounts of sulphate of ammonia which have been exported in the last throe months?

The exports of sulphate of ammonia produced in this country for manure are shown at pages 234 and 235 of the Monthly Trade Accounts. The quantities exported during the last three months were:—

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he can extend beyond the end of December the term during which a proportion of the sulphate of ammonia manufactured in Great Britain will be reserved for purchase by farmers at a maximum price, in view of the fact that many farmers do not usually purchase this fertiliser till later in the season?

The possible extension of the present arrangement with such modification as may be necessary is now under consideration.

Textile Trades (Coal Supply)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the danger to the textile and other allied trades in Lancashire caused by the restricted supplies of coal and of the probability of a considerable stoppage of these industries in case of any prolongation of the Christmas holidays at the pits; and whether he will consider the advisability of taking steps to secure the keeping up of the full output and, if possible, increasing it?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The question of securing the maximum output of coal and providing industries with the necessary supplies is receiving the close attention of the Coal Mining Organisation Committee and the Coal Exports (Licensing) Committee, and all practicable steps will be taken in this direction. The increased demand in Lancashire is fully appreciated.

Among the practical steps, is the hon. Gentleman taking that of pressing the railway companies to carry coal to the traders?

Tuberculised Meat (Sterilisation)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that in Continental countries slightly tuberculised meat is sterilised and sold at a low price; and whether, in view of existing conditions, he will consider the advisability of avoiding the wasteful destruction of food and adopt the economical method practised with safety in other places?

I am aware of the Continental practice referred to, but do not consider that it would be expedient to adopt it in this country at the present time.

Building Contracts (Non-Fulfilment)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that, in consequence of the War, it has been found impossible in many cases to carry out contracts entered into for the erection of buildings because of the present State necessities in the way of men, money, and material, and that the ground landlords are insisting upon their rents being paid and upon the fulfilment of the contracts; and whether he will favourably consider the possibility of giving protection to lessees in such cases?

I have no official information on this subject, and I cannot give any undertaking to be able to deal with it.

Declaration of London

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the confusion which has arisen by reason of the action of the Government in declaring that the provisions of the Declaration of London with modifications should be enforced; and whether, in view of the fact that this Declaration has in itself no legal or binding efficacy, and that its provisions as a supposed statement of international law has been modified by the Order in Council of 29th October, 1914, and by seven successive proclamations as to contraband, and that the provisions of the Declaration have proved to be inapplicable to modern conditions as disclosed by the War, His Majesty's Government will in concert with our Allies treat the Declaration of London as non-existent and repeal the Order in Council of 29th October, 1914?

I am afraid that as far as I can see the adoption of the hon. Member's suggestion would not result in any practical advantage.

Would it not be better that the Prize Courts should be free to decide prize cases unhampered by written rules, as was the case in the days of Lord Stowell?

I think it is a convenient practice to state to the world the rules by which belligerents propose to be guided. I should be sorry to differ with my hon. Friend on a question of law, but I certainly think that some such statement is always made at the outbreak of war.

Would it not be sufficient to issue instructions to the naval commanders, instead of laying down written rules for the guidance of the Prize Courts?

I think the course we have pursued is really the convenient course, in view of the fact that our Allies as well as ourselves are concerned.

Colonel Walker's Breeding Stud

asked the Secretary to the Treasury what is the estimated value of the properties in Ireland and Wilts which it is proposed to purchase from the hon. Member for Widnes; and what is the estimated annual cost of upkeep of the two establishments?

The information desired by the hon. Member is not at the moment available, but arrangements are being made for the valuation of the properties referred to, and for the preparation of estimates of the cost of upkeep for next year.

Has not a Royal Commission twice reported against the advisability of the Government embarking upon this industry of horse breeding?

No, Sir. The offer has been very, very carefully considered by the Government. It is on very well-matured opinion that action has been taken.

I do not understand that any horses are to be raced in the name of the Government.

asked whether the Government have accepted the offer of the hon. Member for Widnes to give them his breeding stud of thoroughbred horses; and in what way they consider the nation will benefit by becoming the owners of this stud?

The Army Council had made urgent representations to the Board of Agriculture, based on its war experience, to the effect that the stock of horses in the United Kingdom suitable for military purposes had become dangerously depleted. An adequate supply of half-bred horses of the type and quality required must be founded on thoroughbred stock, and in the opinion of the War Office and the Board of Agriculture the acceptance of the hon. Member's generous offer will provide a greatly needed stimulus to the light horse-breeding industry, and a valuable source of supply of the class of stallion required for the production of military horses.

In view of the information the hon. Gentleman has just given, will the hon. Gentleman say why at first the Government refused this offer?

Sir, I do not know that there was any definite refusal; in fact, I think there was not. But clearly a matter of this kind must be the subject of very full consideration before it is either accepted or declined.

House of Commons (Shorthand Writer)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that there is a deficiency in the amount of fees received by the shorthand writer to this House; whether he is aware that the shorthand writers on the staff have only been partially employed during this Session; whether he is aware that the shorthand writer has been entrusted with less than half the work of the departmental committees usually done by him; and whether he. will reduce the loss in this department by seeing that the duty of reporting the proceedings of the War Loan Committee is given to the shorthand writer of the House?

I am aware of the facts alluded to, and if the services of a shorthand writer are required by the Committee in question I shall be glad to consider my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Bread-Stuffs (Government Purchases)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether, in any purchases made by the Government of bread-stuffs for this country, he will take care that all such purchases are made of corn and not of flour, in order that the offals may be readily available for feeding purposes in this country?

I fully recognise the importance of the hon. Member's suggestion, and will certainly bear it in mind.

Agricultural Training Committees (Women)

asked how many of the 199 women for whom situations have been found by the women agricultural training committees, referred to in the recent circular to war agricultural committees, are still in their situations; and whether any, and, if so, what steps are being taken to ascertain whether the work which they are doing is being satisfactorily carried out?

It has not yet been possible to obtain particulars with regard to all the women referred to, but I will communicate them to the hon. Member as soon as they can be definitely ascertained. I should point out that the 199 women referrred to are those who were placed in employment through the Labour Exchanges after training under the special scheme initiated by the Board of Agriculture, and are only a small proportion of the total number who have been trained and placed in agricultural work by the Exchanges, acting in co-operation with the women's county committees where these bodies exist. As regards the last part of the question, the county committees and the Labour Exchanges keep, as far as possible, in touch with the women who have been placed in employment and with their employers, and, speaking generally, I understand that the reports received show that the work is being carried out very satisfactorily.

Pigs (Feeding-Stuffs)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the fact that quantities of pigs are being slaughtered weekly at small weights owing to the insufficient supply and price of barley, milling offals, and other feeding-stuffs; whether he can state the amount of barley and milling offals which have been exported under licences granted by the Board of Trade during the current year; and whether his Department will see that until there is a surplus of feeding-stuffs in this country no licences are granted for the export of barley, malt, barley meal, or milling offals?

From a special inquiry which the Board recently instituted, it was not evident that there has been in the country generally an unusual slaughter of small pigs. A few licences for the export of barley were granted in special circumstances some months ago, but with this exception practically no licences for barley or milling offals have been assented to by the Board during the current year.

The question is quite specific, and deals with malt as well as the other articles mentioned; it asks whether the Board of Agriculture will prohibit all exports until there is a sufficient supply of feeding-stuffs in the country?

I have recently given such full and exact particulars in regard to malt and the other articles mentioned that it is absolutely unnecessary to repeat them. I will communicate very full information to the hon. Member by letter.

Yes, Sir; that is to say, there may be—I do not think there is—a very small arrangement still outstanding; but I think licences to export malt have been absolutely stopped.

British Fishing

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture if he will consider the advisability of suspending during the continuance of the War the order prohibiting fishing by British fishing vessels within the three-mile limit and in the Moray Firth, with the object of increasing the nation's food supply?

Fishing within territorial waters on the coasts of England and Wales is regulated by by-laws made by Local Fisheries Authorities and confirmed by the Board. The latter have no authority, however, to suspend the operation of any such by-laws, as the initiation rests with the Local Fisheries Authorities concerned. As regards the Moray Firth and Scottish and Irish waters generally, I would refer the hon. Member to the Scottish and Irish Departments respectively.

Board of Agriculture (Leaflets)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture when the bound volumes of leaflets will be ready for circulation, in view of the fact that the Board have recently called attention to these as being ready?

I much regret that, owing to the fact that recruiting has seriously interfered with printing and binding, it has not been possible to issue the bound volumes of leaflets as early as was anticipated. The third volume, which has not previously been issued, should be available from Monday next, and the other volumes by Christmas. Everything possible is being done to issue the volumes at an early date, but it has proved difficult for the printers to deal with any but the most urgent work.

Fertilisers (Scotland)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether, in view of the fact that the most effective and economical period for the application of fertilisers on crops in Scotland is in the spring, he will take steps to extend the time for farmers obtaining nitrogenous manures under the Board of Agriculture's scheme from 1st January until 1st April?

Flour Prices

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to the continued increase in the price of flour; and whether the Government will take steps to prevent any further increase in the price of this food-stuff?

My hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I have not failed to observe the recent movements in the price of flour, but I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that the price of flour is dependent on the price of wheat. The price of No. 1 Northern Manitoba wheat in London is now about 26s. per quarter higher than it was two years ago, while the price of flour in London is higher by 20s. per sack. The question both of the supply and the price of wheat and flour is engaging the constant attention of the Government, and they have taken steps to secure an adequate supply, but it is clear that any attempt to fix maximum prices would only have the result of reducing the supply coming forward.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiry as to the price of coal, which has increased by a shilling—

Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve (Lieutenants)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the vessels patrolling the North Sea are generally commanded by lieutenants, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve; whether any and, if so, how many of these lieutenants, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, have been promoted to lieutenant-commander or have been decorated in any way since the beginning of the War; and whether he is aware that the pay of a lieutenant-commander, Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, is the same as the pay of a lieutenant, so that such promotion to the commanders of such vessels would not involve any additional charge on the Treasury?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The remainder of the question, therefore, does not arise.

Will there be any recognition of the services of these gentlemen who have done this duty?

My hon. Friend asks me as to patrol vessels in the command of officers of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. There are no vessels that could be called patrol vessels in such command. These are commanded by officers of the Royal Navy or Royal Navy Reserve. Therefore my hon. Friend's question does not arise.

Royal Dockyards (Pensions of Established Men)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can now make a statement regarding the pensions of established men in His Majesty's dockyards who may be called up for service under Lord Derby's scheme; will these men be required to continue their contributions; will their time in the service count for pension; in the event of death how is it proposed to deal with the contributions already paid towards pension, and if unable to return to their former work owing to incapacity, either by wounds or disease, will they receive their full-time pension or part-time pension as the case may be; and, if so, will this be in addition to any Naval or Army pension to which their service may entitle them?

Established workmen who may be called up for service under Lord Derby's scheme will continue to receive their civil pay, subject to the deduction therefrom of Army pay (which is for this purpose calculated at 1s. a day for all below commissioned rank) and separation allowance. Their service in the Army will count as service for civil pension, and their legal personal representatives will receive, in the event of death on Army service, the same award for which they may be eligible under the Superannuation Acts as if the death had occurred on the same dates in the ordinary course of employment. Similarly, if unable to resume their employment on discharge from the Army, owing to infirmity, the men will receive the same awards under the Superannuation Acts as those for which they would have been eligible had they been invalided from their civil employment on the date of their discharge from the Army. These awards will be made to the men or to their representatives, as the case may be (in addition to any Navy or Army pension to which their service may entitle them.

They get different rates of pay if they are pensionable, a lower rate and a higher rate; and if they continue to make that rate of pay they continue their contribution.

Retired Officers (Re-Employment)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when Treasury approval was given to the Regulation granting retired officers on re-employment, in times of national emergency, the full pay of their employment in addition to their retired pay and the reasons which led the Government to adopt this course.

Treasury approval was given to the Regulation in question in 1904. The experience of the South African War had shown that the system of remunerating re-employed officers then in force operated most unequally, and it was then thought that the present system would secure more equal treatment of individual officers without involving any large extra cost to public funds.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state how much is being paid to these officers on retired pay per year?

I could not without notice, and I am not sure that I could with notice.

Can the right hon. Gentleman also state why they are treated more generously than retired officers in the Navy and ex-Civil servants?

Finance (No. 3) Bill

Woodlands

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give instructions to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to prepare and circulate a model balance sheet for owners and tenants of woodlands to use under Schedule D, on the same lines as has already been done for farmers?

The Commissioners of Inland Revenue will be glad of the opportunity of discussing this matter with my right hon. Friend if he will be good enough to give them the advantage of his experience.

Government Stocks (Judicial Factors)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he intends to include in the next Finance Bill a provision which will relieve judicial factors in Scotland of the difficulties as to Government Stocks, to which his attention was drawn in a recent memorial by the Faculty of Advocates and the Chambers of Commerce, etc., in Scotland; and whether he will consider the desirability of receiving a small deputation of the signatories to that memorial?

I am considering whether the provision now made to meet the case of the death of a holder of Government stock can be extended to cover the case of judicial factors. As the views of those interested in the question in Scotland have been very clearly put before me, I do not think it would serve any useful purpose if I were to receive a deputation.

American Securities (Government Proposals)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can yet say when he will make his promised statement concerning the proposals of the Government for acquiring the use of certain American securities?

National Wealth

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give any data or authorities for his estimate of the wealth of this country at twenty-six thousand millions sterling; will he say whether his Department intended this figure to represent the wealth of the Empire or of the United Kingdom; and, if the former, how much of that sum represents the wealth of Great Britain and Ireland?

As stated in my previous reply on the 23rd November, the estimate of £26,000,000,000 related to the British Empire. The capital wealth of the United Kingdom is roughly estimated at £15,000,000,000. These figures are based on statistics prepared by Sir Robert Giffen and brought up to date in papers recently read before the Royal Statistical Society. The figure quoted for the United Kingdom is the estimate contained in the Census of Production Final Report, 1912. I would, however, remind my hon. Friend that the estimates I have given refer to pre-war conditions, and it is impossible to say how far they require modification owing to the War.

May I ask if the capital value of the land of the country has been included?

War Loan (Stockbrokers' Commission)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the commission offered to British stockbrokers on the issue of the recent Loan was ⅛ per cent., while the commission offered to American stockbrokers on the issue of the Loan in the United States of America was 2 per cent., or sixteen times as much; if so, are these figures to be taken as an estimate by his Department of the value of the services rendered by these professional men of the two nationalities; and will they be given more equal terms on future Loans, if there are such?

The comparison made by my hon. Friend is between two entirely different kinds of payment, and is altogether invalid. The commission of ⅛ per cent. paid to British stockbrokers in connection with the issue of the 4½ per cent. War Loan was upon applications for allotments sent in through their agency. In the case of the Anglo-French Loan in America the sum of 2 per cent. to which the hon. Member refers was not a commission to brokers, but represents the difference between the price paid to the issuing Governments by participants in the syndicate which purchased the whole issue and the price at which that syndicate offered the bonds for sale to the public. Moreover, even if the syndicate were successful in re-selling the whole of their bonds to the public at the price of 98, there would fall to be deducted from the 2 per cent. in question the whole cost of advertising the issue and all expenses (including commissions to stockbrokers) connected with the placing of the bonds.

National Insurance Act

Medical Benefit

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether his attention has been called to the circular (No. 201 I.C.) issued by the National Insurance Commissioners in September, 1914, stating in effect that, in view of the number of panel practitioners serving abroad on active service or engaged in other exceptional duties in the public interest and the impracticability of adequate prior consultation with, or notice to, them, there would be no substantial revision of the medical benefit regulations during the War; whether he is aware that Sir Robert Morant wrote on 17th March, 1915, to the secretary of the British Medical Association stating that changes in the medical benefit regulations are mooted and discussed some three or four months before they come into effect; whether draft new regulations involving changes of a substantial character in the existing medical benefit regulations were issued on or about 27th October, 1915, to come into force on 1st January, 1916, some of which were never discussed with or communicated to large numbers of practitioners and of local medical and panel committees prior to their issue; whether he is aware that the effect thereof was to leave panel practitioners little more than a fortnight to decide whether they would remain on the panel or not on the new terms; and whether, in view of the above-mentioned circular of September, 1914, and the letter of 17th March, 1915, the Commissioners will withdraw these regulations so far as they affect the panel practitioners?

Yes, Sir; I am familiar with the documents referred to, which, as the hon. Member will see from my previous replies, of which I will send him copies, do not bear the construction placed upon them in the question. As regards the third part of the question, proposals as to the conditions of service of medical practitioners for 1916 had been under consideration by representatives of the medical profession for a very considerable period prior to the publication of the draft regulations. Every local medical and panel committee in the country was consulted by those representatives, and the regulations were drafted in the light of the opinions thus elicited. The position is, therefore, not as suggested in the fourth part of the question; and the answer to the fifth part is in the negative.

Were some of these regulations communicated to the practitioners before they were issued to the public?

I think they were all communicated. There are two points—the question of rubber stamps and the repetition of prescriptions, on which the regulations were not so fully communicated to the representatives. If the hon. and learned Gentleman refers to those, and will clear away the general misconception, I shall be very glad to have a talk with him on that subject.

Lost Contribution Cards

asked the Comptroller of the Household if he now wishes to increase his estimate of 300,000 lost and un-traceable cards bearing stamps in the possession of the Commissioners; and what are the totals for England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland, respectively?

The figures for which the hon. Member asks are approximately 216,000, 45,000, 39,000, and 24,000 respectively.

Scottish Chemists

asked the Comptroller of the Household if he intends to force his new proposals upon the Scottish chemists; whether he has received intimations of a strike on the part of the latter; and whether he is pursuing this conflict at the request of the Scottish Commissioners or of some body domiciled in England?

asked whether, before refusing the offer of Scottish chemists to continue during 1916 the arrangements for national health insurance dispensing in Scotland, he consulted the Scottish Insurance Commissioners and insurance committees; and, if so, whether the advice they gave was accepted?

With the permission of the two hon. Members concerned, I will answer this question and question No. 32 together. The representatives of insurance committees on the Scottish Advisory Committee were consulted before the terms of service of chemists for 1916 were formulated. It would not be conducive to good administration that I should give details of advice tendered to me by my Department prior to the adoption of a policy for which I am responsible to the House. As regards the acceptance by chemists of the terms of service for 1916, the position remains as stated in my reply to the hon. Member for Leith Burghs on the 2nd instant.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman to answer my question on the Paper: Whether in this important matter he is following the advice of the Scottish Commissioners or some other Commissioners?

I listen to the advice that is tendered to me by my Department. I cannot give any information as to what that advice is.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether the Scottish Commissioners were not appointed to supervise the administration of the Act in Scotland and what is the use of these Commissioners if their advice is not to be taken on a matter of this importance?

In administrative questions of this kind the Scottish Commissioners tender advice and the policy I adopt is the policy for which I am responsible to the House.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether this scheme is a Morant scheme or a Roberts one?

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether he proposes that the many millions of prescriptions issued in England during 1916 should be priced by insurance committees twice over by different methods; whether it is suggested that for this purpose there should be established twelve checking bureaux in England similar to the checking bureau established in Glasgow for the whole of Scotland; whether the cost of this double checking for England is estimated to exceed £80,000 per annum; and whether he will reconsider the desirability of such an expenditure at this time?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. A reorganisation of the present arrangements in England has been necessitated by the transference, under the new system introduced for 1916, of the duties of pricing prescriptions from individual chemists to insurance committees, and schemes for cooperative action are at present in course of preparation by English insurance committees with a view to securing the maximum degree of economy in the discharge of those duties. The cost of the necessary operations, which differ materially from those conducted by the Scottish organisation alluded to, is not expected, as I stated on the 30th ultimo, to entail on balance any additional expenditure, and could in no circumstances possibly approach the sum mentioned in the question.

Has the hon. Gentleman endeavoured to make an estimate based on the experience of the Scottish chemists?

If the work is different, why, then, does the hon. Gentleman apply the same conditions as to English chemists?

It is to secure the same remuneration under similar conditions for Scotland as for England. As I understand the claims of the Scottish chemists, they are for a higher rate of remuneration than is payable in England.

Low-Wage Contributors

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, if he will state how many low-wage cards were in use at the latest date for which statistics are available in England; what is the proportion of such cards belonging to female insured persons; and what is the comparative experience of urban and rural districts?

At the latest date for which statistics are available there were in England approximately 224,000 low-wage contributors, of whom 205,000 were women. No information is available as regards the last part of the question.

Scottish and Irish Insurance Commissioners

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if any witness, and, if so, who, has given evidence before the Retrenchment Committee of the Treasury upon the question of the services of the Scottish or the Irish Insurance Commissioners; and whether it is proposed to call the chairmen of these two authorities and other persons familiar with the working difficulties of the Insurance Act?

No witness has given evidence on this question. It will be for the Committee to decide what witnesses to call when they meet again, though I have no doubt they will call the chairmen of the two Commissions referred to before proposing any radical alterations in the administration of the Insurance Act in Scotland or Ireland.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether there has been any evidence tendered either by document or in person on this subject?

No, I do not think any evidence has been tendered. The subject has been mentioned, but I do not think evidence was taken.

Has not a memorandum been received from Sir Matthew Nathan with regard to Ireland?

When is it proposed that the Committee should go on with its work? [An HON. MEMBER: "Never!"]

Questions

Barley (Production of Intoxicants)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the amount and value of barley used for the production of intoxicants since August, 1914?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to take this question. The information desired is not available in this Department, but I am endeavouring to obtain it, and I will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as possible.

asked the amount and value of barley produced in the United Kingdom for the years 1914 and 1915?

The production of barley in the United Kingdom in 1914 is estimated to have been 8,065,678 quarters. The production in Great Britain in 1915 is estimated at 5,186,229 quarters, as compared with 7,096,873 quarters in 1914; the production in Ireland in 1915 has not yet been published. The value of this production cannot be stated, but the average price in England and Wales at the statutory markets was 27s. 2d. per quarter in 1914; and (for the forty-nine weeks ending 4th December) 36s. 6d. in 1915.

Barley and Hops (Imports)

asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether he can state the amount and value of barley and of hops imported since August, 1914?

:The quantity and value of barley and hops registered as imported into the United Kingdom from all sources between the 1st August, 1914, and the 30th November, 1915, were as follows:—

Barley:

20,162,000 cwts., valued at £8,741,000

Hops:

227,000 cwts., valued at £913,000

Swine Fever (Inoculation)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture what has been the result of the serum inoculation experiments on swine for the prevention of swine fever; whether in other countries inoculation is resorted to as the most expedient method of treating foot-and-mouth distemper in cattle; and whether he will cause inquiry to be made and report the result?

With regard to the first part of the hon. Member's question, I would refer to the reply I gave to his similar question on the 29th September last. Inoculation is not resorted to in any country for the treatment of foot-and-mouth disease. A serum was prepared and tried in Germany, but the expense was great and results unsatisfactory.

General Election Expenses

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state the total expense, as returned, incurred at the last General Election by candidates elected for constituencies in England, Wales, and Scotland; and the total amount paid in fees to returning officers?

The President of the Local Government Board has asked me to reply to this question. My hon. Friend will find the figures fully set out in a reply given by my predecessor to the hon. Member for Darlington on 19th July, 1912.

Church of England (Revenue)

asked the hon. Member for the Doncaster Division, as Church Estates Commissioner, whether he can state the annual revenue of the Church of England from tithe and the revenue from land in the control of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners?

The Ecclesiastical Commissioners do not possess this information in relation to all the corporations within the Church. The gross revenues of the Commissioners in respect of their Common Fund and as trustees for special purposes are stated in their Annual Report and Accounts which are submitted to Parliament. For the year ending 31st October, 1914, their net revenues from land and tithe rent-charge were:—

Hæmatite Ore (Royalties)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the amount of the royalty now obtained for hæmatite ore in the Barrow district; whether in many cases it exceeds 8s. and approximates 10s. per ton; how many tons of ore are required to make a ton of pig iron; what is the approximate cost of a ton of pig iron; how much of that cost is absorbed by the royalty; and how much of these royalties go to the public Exchequer and how much to the landowners?

I fear the information asked for is not available, and it could not be obtained without an expenditure of time and labour which in present circumstances would in my opinion not be justified.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is not the slightest difficulty in getting this information, which is practically confined to three landowners?

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to—

Port Dundas Church and Parish, Quoad Sacra, Glasgow, Order Confirmation Bill,

Street Collections (Regulation) (Scotland) Bill, without Amendment.

Bill Presented

Munitions of War Act, 1915 (Amendment) Bill,—"to amend the Munitions of War Act, 1915. Presented by Mr. LLOYD GEORGE; supported by Sir F. Smith, Dr. Addison, and Dr. Macnamara; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 169.]

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

I beg to ask the Prime Minister what will be the business for next week?

On Monday, we shall take the Second Reading of the Government War Obligations (No. 2) Bill and of the War Loan (Supplementary Provisions) Bill;

On Tuesday, the Second Reading of the Parliament and Registration Bill;

On Wednesday, the Second Reading of the Munitions of War Act, 1915 (Amendment) Bill;

On Thursday, the Army Supplementary Vote A.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any idea when the Parliamentary Session will come to an end?

No, Sir, not in the least.

Ordered,—That the Proceedings on the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill, if under discussion at Eleven o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour, though opposed.—[ The Prime Minister. ]

Parliament and Registration Bill

rose to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to amend the Parliament Act, 1911, in connection with the present Parliament, and to suspend further the machinery for the Registration of Electors."

On a point of Order. I desire to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether there is any precedent for a co-opted, and therefore unconstitutional, Government, which has never been sanctioned by the electorate, introducing, under the Ten Minutes' Rule, a Bill tampering with the Constitution in the vital article of the duration of Parliament; whether it is in order for such a Government to do this; and, if you hold such procedure to be in. order in the abstract, whether, in the actual circumstances, to introduce this Bill in a manner to prevent debate is in order, remembering that the Act which they propose to nullify has been enacted after prolonged debate, and so recently that it has not had time to come into operation?

The points which the hon. Member has raised seem to be more connected with merits than order. There will be an opportunity for discussing them on Tuesday.

It will be for the convenience of the House that the Bill, which I now ask leave to introduce, be printed and circulated before the general discussion on it takes place, and the Prime Minister authorises me to say that, if leave be given, an opportunity for full debate will be afforded in the course of next week. [An HON MEMBER: "How very kind of you!"] What I propose to do now is to make a short explanatory statement such as is contemplated by the Standing Orders, in order that hon. Members may learn, at the earliest moment, what the Bill contains, and in order that they may have that information before them when they consider it. When the present Parliament was called together five years ago its prospect of life was defined by a Statute now exactly 200 years old, according to which it might last for seven years, subject only of course to a prior determination by dissolution by the Crown on the advice of its Ministers. The previous Government had announced their intention to propose to shorten that period of seven years, and in 1911 Parliament thought fit to reduce the maximum duration, both of this and all future Parliaments, from seven years to five years. Those five years will expire on the 31st of January next, and consequently, unless provision is at once made to prevent it, a General Election, with all its possibilities of domestic friction, must take place, and must take place without the participation of all those voters, whether soldiers, or sailors, or munitions workers, who could not vote owing to removal, or absence in the service of the nation. No one, I imagine, desires that a General Election should take place in those circumstances, and the Government has already announced its intention of promoting legislation which will avoid that result. We must at the same time secure that the continued suspension of domestic controversy does not work to the prejudice of anyone as long as the War lasts.

With those objects I hope the whole House will agree; but though those objects will be generally approved, it has been a matter of some difficulty to decide by what method they may best be attained. We had hoped, Mr. Speaker, that it might be possible to make a proposal which would now have settled these questions once and for all, till the termination of the War, but in view of the difficulties in working out that solution, the proposal which we now make to Parliament is of a more limited character. It consists simply in proposing to treat the next year, the year 1916, as though it followed immediately after the year 1914, and therefore to postpone for twelve months the difficulties that otherwise would now arise. Consequently the maximum life of this Parliament would, under this proposal, be six years instead of five; though, of course, nothing that will be proposed would in any way affect the overriding powers of the Crown on the advice of its Ministers, to dissolve Parliament at any time, if this is considered to be in the public interest. Neither does this proposal in any way affect the application of the five years maximum period to any other and future Parliament. Our proposal simply secures that an immediate General Election should not be forced merely by the automatic operation of the Statute Law. Then, as part of the same proposal, we provide that the sittings of Parliament next year are to be regarded for the purpose of Section 2 of the Parliament Act as successive to the Session of 1914. The House will see that that has a bearing upon the fortunes of a controversial measure, and of that measure, since it is controversial, and on the assumption that we can preserve intact the rights of all parties in the meantime, we ought to hear nothing as long as the War lasts. The Plural Voting Bill has already passed the House of Commons twice, and whatever its promoters may have secured by that circumstance they ought not to forfeit when the War comes to an end. I would wish, by two short quotations, to show the House of Commons that this proposal is one which ought to satisfy every section of the House. Soon after the outbreak of war, the Prime Minister and the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, defined the attitude which they recommended their followers to adopt. The Prime Minister said: — so that the House may have the opportunity of considering it in detail before the general discussion which has been arranged for an early day next week.

4.0 P. M

I rise to oppose this Bill. It appears to me that it is designed for two contradictory purposes. It is at once designed to remove controversy from the political constituency and to arouse an old controversy in this House. May I just recall to the House what the position is, and say why I feel compelled to oppose the introduction of the measure? The words which the Home Secretary has quoted were words under which we worked in this House happily enough for some eight months after the War had begun, and when, in May, a Coalition Government was formed the Prime Minister laid down in terms the purposes and the limits under which the Coalition was invited to take charge of the Government of the country. In passing, let me ask any hon. Member what was the position of the Plural Voting Bill at that time. I desire on an occasion like this to use the most measured language that I can, but I think I may say that the position of that Bill was that it was becalmed. There was practically no prospect under the late Government that it would ever reach port. If that be so, just let us consider what the position is now. The Home Secretary read some passages from the Prime Minister's speech. Let me read some more recent ones on 19th May, when the Prime Minister was laying down the principles upon which the Coalition was formed, and we all know—and pay a tribute to it—that there is mo greater master of exposition in the House than the Prime Minister. He said:—

"The third and last point, one of great importance to my hon. Friends behind me. and I have no doubt also to hon. Gentlemen who sit behind the Lender of the Opposition, is this: Any reconstruction that may be made will be for the purposes of the War alone, and is not to be taken in any quarter as any reason for indicating anything in the nature of surrender or compromise on the part of any person or body of persons of their several political purposes and ideals." — [OFFICIAL RETORT, 19th May. 1915, col. 2393.]

Let me apply that rule to myself. For the last decade one of the most controversial measures before this House has been the Plural Voting Bill. I ask myself, as one of the persons on the Back Benches, "If I am not to surrender or compromise any of the political purposes or ideals for which I have stood in the last ten years, how can I accept the proposals of this measure?" If that be so, I think it right at the very earliest possible moment that a note should be struck, saying that it would be impossible, as at present advised, to surrender or to compromise those political ideals. We are asked at the present moment to pass a Bill which does raise a matter of the very greatest controversy. The War is above everything. On this side of the House, in all quarters of the House, and in all quarters of the country we desire to fight as hard as we possibly can and to finish the War. It is the Coalition Government which, at the present time, unites us all in that purpose. Are we, then, going to be asked, within the limits of the rule laid down by the Prime Minister, to sacrifice in some quarters of the House political purposes and ideals which have been held, and held strongly, by us during the past decade, not to say a great deal longer? Let me refer to one more matter, and here I shall have the sympathy of the Prime Minister himself. The Prime Minister on 15th June said that he was faithful to the great principle of public policy which, during the best part of thirty years, had been to him the aim, the inspiration, the moulding and governing power of such services as he had been able to render to the State:—

"I recede from nothing-; I abandon nothing: I sacrifice nothing."

And then he went on to say:—

"I will add that the same claim which I make for myself I put forward with an equal measure of assurance for my new colleagues, who, in the same temper and spirit, felt it their duty to respond to my invitation to associate themselves in a supreme national crisis with lifelong antagonists."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th June. 1915, cols. 557–8.]

I apply those rules, and I find it quite impossible to sacrifice the position which belongs to us on this side of the House. I speak for myself and, I dare say, for a certain number of Members on this side of the House. I find it impossible to apply those principles and to accept the Bill. Let me make one more point. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Rotherham Division (Mr. J. A. Pease) was introducing the Plural Voting Bill on the last occasion it was before this House he laid down a proposition which everybody would accept. For the purpose of getting a true measure of representation it was not only necessary to deal with the Plural Voting Bill, but it was also necessary at the same time to deal with redistribution. It was impossible under any circumstances at all to do that at the present time. One of the reasons which he gave was that it was a matter which must be dealt with by agreement. I desire, as I have said, to use measured language, but I hope that it will convey the deep feeling I have upon this matter; and I venture to appeal to the Prime Minister to have some sympathy with people who on this question have strong and deep-seated feelings which are contrary to his own. If that be so, may I not ask: However strongly hon. Members, or some hon. Members, may feel on this question, of the Plural Voting Bill, is this the time and is this the occasion when this measure ought to be revived to safeguard the interests of those who are enamoured of it and to the disadvantage of those who have so long protested against it, and who, if the Coalition had not come to its assistance, would probably have seen no more of the Bill during the War? I have endeavoured to make my meaning plain and to speak in the most restrained language I can, because I feel that above all and beyond all this question stands the War and the necessity for unity in all quarters of the House. I shall regret, and I believe many hon. Members in all quarters of the House will regret, if any step is taken by this Bill to revive a controversy which must be to our disadvantage and weaken our strength in the face of the enemy.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir John Simon, Mr. Bonar Law, Mr. Long, Mr. Lewis Harcourt, Mr. Arthur Henderson, and Sir F. Smith; presented accordingly and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 158.]

Finance (No. 3) Bill

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

It may not be quite inopportune for one who has devoted some time to the various stages of this Bill to review very shortly the position at which we have now arrived. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is to be congratulated on having brought this highly complex and controversial measure to the position in which it now stands. I am only expressing the view of those who have closely followed the interests of the Bill when I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the unfailing courtesy, tact, kindness, and patience with which he has piloted this difficult measure through the House of Commons. This Finance Bill, certainly the largest and most important Finance Bill ever introduced into this House, contains new provisions and in some respects old provisions. I do not think any useful purpose will be served by going over the controversy we have had with regard to the merits or demerits of the fiscal Clauses introduced by the right hon. Gentleman. I myself do not feel that anything I have said, or anything that has been said by those associated with me, needs any retraction. The leading Tariff Reform paper not many days ago described me as the only Free Trader left in the country. That is a very poor compliment to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I feel confident that some day he will regret that he has taken a step injudicious in itself, partial in its results, and unlikely to achieve his object. The right hon. Gentleman himself, to some extent, has had to admit this. The chief object of the right hon. Gentleman was the restriction of the consumption of luxuries. He has had to admit himself that he has not succeeded, and cannot succeed, by this measure in restricting sufficiently the consumption of luxuries at the present time. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to restrict luxuries he must not merely deal with the question of an import tariff on certain articles; he must go further and more drastically prohibit the import of such luxuries, and also deal with their production in this country. Such a course, exceptional and drastic as it would be, would be better justified and more equitable and less harmful than the course which he has chosen to adopt,

There is one further point which ought to be mentioned in connection with the discussion we have had regarding the fiscal aspect of this Budget. It has been much misconstrued, not so much in the House as outside it, in the direction in some mysterious way of connecting our defence of Free Trade with a kind of desire to assist German trade after the War. As far as I am concerned, I must say that if, at the end of the War, for non-economic reasons, it is found desirable to wage a commercial tariff war against Germany, it will be on entirely different considerations. It will not be waged on the ordinary economic argument, and that view will have to be swept aside or a great deal of harm is going to be done.

Another very interesting part of the Budget—and I think the right hon. Gentle- man will agree that some very useful results have accrued from the time spent upon it—is the Excess Profits Tax. There, I think, the right hon. Gentleman can pay himself a compliment. It is said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and apparently other countries are imitating him in the course he has taken. Some of the objections that have been urged to the tax have never been answered. This is an emergency measure, as I hope the right hon. Gentleman will make clear. I think the House of Commons and the country will see to it that the tax is enforced, and the right hon. Gentleman will derive a larger revenue from it than he anticipates—at any rate, I sincerely hope that that will be the case. In the discussion in Committee I ventured to throw out the idea that, in dealing in the future with this question, some co-ordination would be required between the anomalies that exist at the present time. You have two forms of taxation dealing with very much the same object. You have the Excess Profits Tax, the object of which is to get into the coffers of the Exchequer a large percentage of the profits made either before or during the War. You have again, under your Munitions Act, over 2,000 establishments placed under financial penalties, the object of which is much the same as that of the taxation of the right hon. Gentleman.

I do not think I would be in order in discussing which of these methods ought to be adopted. What I want to say is this, the double method cannot indefinitely continue. It is not fair to any class, and certainly not to the controlled establishments, especially in view of the depleted clerical staffs with which large manufacturing concerns have to work, that they should be faced with the difficulty of keeping two different sets of accounts which is necessary for the taxation. The difficulty has become so great as to render it almost an impossibility, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will see the necessity in future Budgets of treating as separate these establishment, or unifying in some way this taxation. Those responsible for large industrial undertakings are having this question more and more forced on their attention. The right hon. Gentleman, I think, is to be congratulated that, on the whole, in connection with this Excess Profits Tax, he has not had to give very much away—indeed, it would be interesting to know how much he has given.

With regard to the rest of his financial proposals one has to realise that, whatever the new taxation may be, it is only a very small trifle compared with the enormous sum we shall have to raise towards the cost of the War. The right hon. Gentleman probably in successive Budgets will regret that he has been so moderate in his demand, as no doubt his predecessors have done. But, however that may be, one thing remains obvious, and that is that the great bulk of the enormous war expenditure cannot be raised from income, but must be raised from capital. How that is to be done is a problem which requires the greatest and most careful consideration on the part of the financial authorities. In reading a finance Debate in the German Parliament, I noticed that the German Chancellor, a very acute financial authority, made a remark which impressed me very much. He said it was not only necessary to have wealth—and England and France probably had more than Germany—but what was necessary was to find a line of transport by which to move that wealth to the National Exchequer, and he claimed that they had been more successful in that direction than we have. I do not think the claim is altogether well-founded. But some machinery will have to be adopted to get at the £15,000,000,000 which is said to be available here in order to enable the possessors in some form—by loan or otherwise—to continue to find the sinews of war. That is becoming more evident every day to those who are looking into the future with regard to the financing of this War.

I have no doubt that that problem is occupying the mind of the right hon. Gentleman and his able advisers. It will have to be done probably on a large scale. The right hon. Gentleman will find, as other people have found, in connection with finance, that whatever you may wish to do in raising amounts from small subscribers they will always remain a relatively small proportion to the large totals. We have not been as successful in getting these small amounts as the right hon. Gentleman anticipated, but I hope that some scheme may be devised which will secure more popular support. The £15,000,000,000 which he has at his back on paper will have to be transferred to the nation if this War is to be carried on, as it looks now, for a very long time, with financial success. That, probably, is one of the questions which will occupy the right hon. Gentleman's mind before he issues a new Loan, and therefore I do not think I ought to go into that further now.

I will only make two other observations. I hope that generosity in terms will be considered a most useful factor in creating popular enthusiasm for the lending of money, and that small considerations will not be allowed to stand in the way of a great success when that time comes. I also hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will also recognise that you can at the same time take income by taxation and raise the same money on loan. Which is the best way of doing this it is difficult to determine. The load of taxation will have a depressing effect on the very people from whom we want financial support. That is a fundamental consideration which must be borne in mind by anyone in charge of the Treasury at such an important moment. The right hon. Gentleman, I think, has proved a very efficient pilot. I saw him the other day in a cartoon, in conjunction with myself, in which he appeared in the capacity not of a pilot, but rather of a shipwrecked sailor. I do not think that is a role which can be truly attributed to him. He has piloted his ship into port with great skill, and, in spite of the many things in the Bill to which I object, I do, on the whole, congratulate him on the work he has done and on the results which he has achieved.

I wish to associate myself with the right hon. Baronet who has just spoken in the congratulations he has tendered to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the able way in which, with the Secretary to the Treasury, he has conducted his Bill into port. I, too, have had occasion to oppose many of the provisions of the Bill, and I must admit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whatever he has done, has certainly done his best to mollify and assuage the opposition directed against him. On the whole he has done so with very great success, and I do not believe he has sacrificed much in the interests of the Treasury, although he has not neglected efforts to meet the wishes of those who opposed him, particularly on the ground of the unfairness of many of the provisions of the Excess Profits Tax. Nothing, I suppose, he could have done would have altogether harmonised the principle of getting such an amount with the principle of having equal fairness for all contributors. The original difficulty which faced him was that of differentiating between those who were making profits out of the War itself, and those who were not making profits. The original idea of the tax arose in the discussions which were conducted by the Minister of Munitions when he gave assurances to the working population that means would be adopted by the Government to prevent the making of extreme profits out of their labour in proportion to the amount which they were receiving. That was a thing very difficult to carry out, and the tax was gradually altered until it assumed its present form.

The great injustice of the tax as it stands now is that businesses which are in exactly the same position, doing precisely the same work, are in a different position as regards the scale of their profits. There are many industrial businesses which differ only in the respect that some of them have reached a period of prosperity and fruition at an earlier stage than others. Those which, in the pre-war period, reached that position of prosperity, are not penalised in any way whatever. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said the principle of the Bill was that those who enjoyed prosperity during the War should contribute under the form of this tax, but a number of industries which have obtained prosperity not during the War, but before the War, and are still enjoying it, are not taxed in addition in any way whatever, while others who are doing precisely the same work, and are gradually rising in prosperity, are handicapped very seriously by the great additional imposts put upon them. In other words, developing business are being sacrificed, while businesses which have attained their prosperity are suffering in no way whatever under this taxation.

This tax is very unfortunate, especially in view of the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will in the future have to meet the very heavy calls to which reference has been made, and if these additional contributions are to be obtained from income, it ought to be the right hon. Gentleman's business to stimulate income in every possible way; but in this Excess Profits Tax he is discouraging increases of income, because the money which would otherwise have gone in further development of business, and further, production upon which the income of the country depends will be devoted to paying this tax, and will not be available for those further developments. I cannot help thinking it is unfortunate that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not been able in the earlier stages of the War to impress upon his colleagues the necessity of the co-ordination of effort, so as to develop the industry and production of the country to a greater extent than it at present enjoys. As a matter of fact, it is becoming increasingly difficult, with almost every industry in the country, not only to increase its production, but to maintain production at the level at which it previously stood. Owing to the indiscriminate recruiting of skilled labour in the early stages of the War, and I am afraid even now, without a proper selection of the candidates for the Army, without a proper allocation to industry and to military service of the persons who were qualified for industrial work, there has been so great a diminution in the amount of skilled labour available in various industries, that it is now almost impossible to obtain very many of the materials which are absolutely essential for the conduct of industry.

Take, for instance, the case of caustic soda. It has become almost impossible to obtain caustic soda, which is an article of immense use in a great many of the largest industries of the country. It is impossible to obtain alcohol, spirits, and ethers, all articles which enter into the composition of munitions, and which are used in the production of materials in this country. Glycerine, again, is subject to the same process of restriction. Glycerine is an article which is used largely for munitions of war. Nobody would at all object to the amount necessary for that particular purpose being set aside, but there is a large amount of glycerine produced over and above what is necessary for the manufacture of the munitions of war, and it is impossible to obtain it, except under what are called monthly licences. You have to ask permission of the Ministry of Munitions, or of the War Trade Committee every time you wish to buy glycerine, and they give a permission or not, according to their needs, for a month only. The result is that it is absolutely impossible to undertake contracts for any length of time, because you do not know whether, although you have obtained a licence to use 100 tons this month, you may not be restricted to 50 or 10 tons next month, or "whether you may be forbidden to use the article altogether. The result is that a great number of industries are tied up. It is particularly in regard to those industries in which Germany competes so largely that glycerine is wanted. There are very large numbers of chemical products of which Germany had a monopoly before the War which are not now manufactured at all in this country, which require glycerine, therefore the talk which we have had about capturing German industries and being prepared for German competition after the War is nugatory so long as the materials from which the articles are made in which Germany competes, are refused for the use of the manufacturers of this country. I therefore hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will endeavour to impress upon his colleagues who have to do with these matters the absolute necessity of encouraging the legislative and administrative measures which will make it possible to develop the production of this country, on which, as I have said, the future success of his future taxation depends to the greatest possible extent. I know the difficulties that exist, but at the same time I believe that if there were proper organisation and co-ordination of the various Government Departments on the matter, it might be very much simplified.

The right hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) made some suggestions to the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the methods of raising money in the future. There is one point I would like to suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Bury (Sir G. Toulmin), in the course of the Second Heading of the Bill, namely, the form in which any future Loan should be issued. I suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he should, if possible, issue a very considerable part of that Loan in the form of short bonds. The hon. Member for Bury showed what the difficulties had been with the small subscribers mentioned by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea, in subscribing to Government Loans. They want to be quite sure, as the hon. Member for Bury pointed, out, that the capital value of their Loan will not fall. If you have a Consolidated Loan, a permanent Loan, or even a long Loan, such as the nature of the last Loans have been, a 3½ per cent. or a 4½ per cent. Loan, you must have, if you increase your taxation and the Income Tax, a steady fall in capital values. The value of the 4½ per cent. Loan of 1935–38, and the value of the shorter Loan of 3½ per cent., have both fallen very considerably since the issue, largely owing, of course, to the imposition of the heavier Income Tax. If, as the Secretary to the Treasury indicated, we may in future, during the course of this War or afterwards, see the Income Tax rise to 5s., 7s. 6d., or to 10s., in the £, it is clear that the capital values of all those Loans will come to be based upon their net value, after deducting Income Tax, in comparison with other securities which are available for investment in other parts of the world. For instance, the capital value of a 5 per cent. Loan, if it is intended to offer that, if you have a 10s. Income Tax on that, and if it were issued at par, would evidently be only £50. The net return of the 3½ per cent. Loan being under 3 per cent., it is quite clear that if you have a 10s. Income Tax upon it, the capital value will fall from about £90, at which it stands now, to something like £40 or £50. If you have a short term Loan in the form of Exchequer bonds, payable in three or five years, no matter what your Income Tax is, the holder of that security would know that at the end of the short term he would be paid back his capital value by the Exchequer, and that the increase of the Income Tax, or other taxation bearing upon income, would not affect the capital value nearly so much, and it would therefore make the attraction of that investment very much greater.

In addition to that consideration, there is to be remembered the fact, that for the Exchequer itself it would be a great advantage to issue these securities, which in the near future will certainly have to bear a return as high, or higher—probably higher—than the return at present derived from the 4½ per cent. Loan. I do not suppose that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to issue a consolidated long term Loan at much less than 5 per cent., after he has issued a Loan in America at a return equivalent to 6 per cent. He would not be able to issue it at much less than 6 per cent.; but if he were to issue Short Term Bonds for three or five years, he might probably be able to issue them at a less rate of interest, perhaps 4½ per cent. or 4¾; per cent., possibly slightly under par. It would be an advantage if he could offer them at 99½. The advantage to him would be this: immediately after the War it is possible, I think it is probable, considering: the immense amount of destruction which has been done in the world by the War, that there may be a very large demand for materials and work for reconstruction purposes, that labour, consequently, may not suffer in the early days, and that money will remain high. But later on, as soon as that period of reconstruction begins to approach an end, it is almost certain, considering the vast destruction of capital which the world has suffered, and which it will suffer in the future, I should think probably something like 15,000 to 20,000, millions will have been lost through the War before it is over; already there must have been 10,000 millions lost, which is a very low estimate to use; it certainly will be doubled, and it may be trebled—supposing 20,000 millions; of capital should be lost, it is quite clear that in the course of a very few years there must be an immense depression in business.

We have seen that after all the previous, great wars. After the War of 1870 there was for seven years a great demand for material and labour and prices were very high, but following that there was a very long period of depression, owing to the loss of capital and so on, which was incurred during that War, although the amount of capital lost in the Franco German War was comparatively small; in fact, it was nothing as compared with the loss which will be sustained during the present War. When that time comes we shall probably see very low rates for money. The House will remember that after the Baring crisis in 1890 there was for nine years, until the South African war began, a very low rate of interest in London, averaging something like 2 per cent. for eight or nine years. That kind of depression is very likely to occur some years after the end of this War, and money then being low, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will probably have a very good opportunity of borrowing cheap and converting expensive loans into a cheaper rate of interest.

I must remind the hon. Member that the matter which he is now discussing is really not relevant to this Bill. We are now discussing the taxing proposals for the year, or for the next few months, and what will happen by and by in the matter of the conversion of Loans or the raising of fresh Loans is not relevant to this Bill. The Debate ought to be confined within the limits of the Bill now before us.

I will accept your ruling at once, Sir. I am sorry I have gone beyond the limits of Debate on that point, but I missed the chance on the Appropriation Bill, where I suppose it would have been in order, and I was anxious, before the House rose, to have an opportunity of making one or two remarks of that kind. As it is not in order, I will abandon that subject. I would only say this further with regard to the Finance Bill, in addition to what the right hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea said, that I am sorry that the Government, especially the members of the old Liberal party in the Government, have sacrificed for so small value their principles of Free Trade. Like the right hon. Baronet, I should be perfectly prepared to consider any scheme for raising revenue by fiscal policy which was of general application, and which brought in a very large revenue, or which was based upon non-economic reasons. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said it was necessary after the War to fight Germany by tariffs in order to prevent her from establishing or recovering a position of superiority in this country and our Possessions in certain industries which she had before the War, I should have been perfectly ready to consider such proposals. I never have been a worshipper of shibboleths, and I only consider Free Trade a good thing because it appears to me that on pure economic argument it is the best policy for this country. But I have no devotion to the principle of Free Trade, apart from its convenience for this country of ours, and it has been convenient in the past. But if in the future it was necessary as a method of war to have a fiscal programme which departed from the principles of Free Trade I should not object in the least, and I think a great many of my hon. Friends on this side hold the same view. But, of course, for so very small an object as the discouragement of luxury, which, as a matter of fact, it will not achieve, and for the sake of a little more than £1,000,000 of revenue, it does not seem to me to be worth while for the Government to attempt to justify their action by arguments which were in total contradiction to all their previous utterances through the whole course of their Parliamentary life.

I do not rise for the purpose of entering upon the merits of Free Trade and Protection, upon which point I shall content myself by saying that if you ever had had Free Trade, or had ever had the chance of obtaining it, I think there might possibly be something very considerable to be said in its favour. But I am quite certain that hon. Members opposite, whatever they may think at present, have to learn a very considerable lesson upon that point with regard to the future, and that lesson is this: You have no prospect whatever of obtaining any real Free Trade because all the other countries in the world are against you, and are becoming more and more against you every day.

And whenever they have parted with Free Trade and taken to Protection you will find, if you consider the figures, in many of the greatest trades for which this country has been celebrated in the past they have not only fought and beaten you, but in some trades, especially in the iron trade, they have actually distanced you in the race altogether. That is one instance. There is another. I am perfectly convinced that when you find how enormous are your commitments after this War is over, no matter when it may finish, you will find you will be compelled, for purposes of revenue alone, to adopt the policy which you have derided and discarded for so many years.

I rose, however, for a totally different matter altogether. I think it is only right, and is expressing what I. know to be the views of the agricultural community in general, that I should enter a caveat against it being supposed that because the agricultural interest has accepted most loyally the increase in their Income Tax imposed by this Bill they will not behave very differently in future if there is any attempt whatsoever to make that a permanent burden upon them. Hon. Members would do well to remember why that relief of taxation was given in the first instance. When the right hon. Gentleman introduced this Budget we heard nothing whatever about the tax being permanent. There was not a word said upon the subject; nor should I have intervened now had it not been for the fact that the Secretary to the Treasury, long after we began the discussion in Committee, used these words. I am sorry to say I was not in the House at the time. Knowing that the agricultural party has accepted the tax without any demur, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer never said anything to lead them to believe that there was any idea that it was going to be permanent, I thought I might safely stay away during the discussion on that point. This is what the Secretary to the Treasury said:—

5.0 P.M.

Now let me say what is my justification for mentioning that both parties in the State have recognised that injustice. The moment the Liberal party come into power they kept that Act going, because such was the opposition that I could not get it through Parliament without agreeing that it should only be a temporary Act for fire years. But ever since they have renewed that Act year by year in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act and thereby admitted, in a manner which could not be contradicted, how entirely right I was in proposing the Bill and how entirely wrong they were in their obstruction. This Bill, further, was introduced on the recommendation of a Royal Commission appointed by a Radical Prime Minister, who himself asked me to serve on it, although so serious and so prolonged had been the agricultural depression that that was not the first but the second Commission which was needed to inquire into the difficulties of the agricultural situation. So I have established the point that the gross injustice of the burden of the rates at that time was frankly admitted by both parties. It is quite true that since the War began farmers have been making larger profits than they had had for a great many years, but there is another side to the question. The cost of production has been enormously greater to them, and one of the greatest difficulties they have ever had to contend with is the scarcity of labour and the immensely increased wages which they have had to pay for it. Last year most of them had sold all their corn before the prices increased, and though I thankfully admit that they have been able to do a good deal better than they have done for a large number of years, there is an idea that farmers have made very much larger profits than I believe they actually have done, and I gather this from a number of very prominent agriculturists who are always in London at the time of the Smithfield Show. They are men who, I am sure, would not mislead me upon a point of this sort. Supposing it is true that they have had these greatly improved times. Remember what they had before and how long it lasted. I am going to remind the House of the statement contained in the report of the Royal Commission, and it is truly remarkable, because it was founded on the evidence given by two of the greatest economic authorities in the world, one of them being Lord Milner, and the other the late Sir Robert Giffen, who was himself a member of that Commission. The whole of the members of that Royal Commission put their names to this statement in the Majority Report of that Commission, that the fall in the value of agricultural land during those years of depression must have amounted to at least one thousand millions of money. It is all very well in these days of war for us to hear of these enormous sums of money, but we had never even begun to think of such vast sums as that until this announcement was made in the Royal Commission of what the fall in the value of agricultural land had been during these years. I feel bound to draw attention to this point, because I have been, unfortunately for myself, a Member of this House a great deal longer than a good many members of the present generation, who have forgotten altogether what happened at that time. I only give it as an illustration of the magnitude of the suffering which the agricultural industry underwent at that time. It is absolutely true that far and away the large majority of them have never really recovered from the effects of that depression. They are not in the same position to-day or anything approaching the position they occupied before, nor is the agricultural situation anything approaching the position that it was in during the years immediately preceding that, very severe depression.

In spite of the relief given by the Act of 1896 no sooner had that Act been passed into law than Parliament began to pass Bill after Bill imposing large, fresh additions to the burdens upon the rates. As a matter of fact this information was contained in a report published by a Commission only two years ago, and those hon. Members who will take pains to Study that report will find some truly remarkable figures. They will find that in spite of the passing of that Act in 1896, under which great relief was given, the agricultural situation in the rural areas as regards the burden of rates is worse now than it was before the passing of that Act. I have thought it to be my duty to make this statement to-night and to put as clearly as I can before the House what is the real position in regard to agricultural taxation. The farmers asked for my opinion, and I gave them my counsel. I said to them, "I should advise you to accept loyally the new burden that is thrown upon you as your share in bearing the burdens of this War, but you must remember that it ought to be treated as a war tax, and if you accept it loyally now, as I feel sure you will do so, your case will be so much stronger later." I thank the House for allowing me to make what to many of them must be rather a dry statement, but I wish it to be put upon record before this Bill passes that these are the views which we entertain in regard to this taxation. If it is the intention to carry out when the War is over what was suggested by the Secretary to the Treasury, it is only fair for me to say that if I am still in the land of the living then and a Member of this House, and if I can get plenty of others to support me, I have no doubt that we shall oppose anything in the nature of that suggestion as far as we possibly can.

If I am in the land of the living and a Member of this House when the time comes for this question to be debated again, I shall certainly vote for the continuation of this tax. The right hon. Gentleman did not tell the House that the farmer need not pay this Income Tax if they take the trouble to keep accounts, and if they can produce accounts to show that they have not made a profit. I cannot see, during these times of great national stress and danger, how right hon. and hon. Members can come down to this House and make these appeals to the Treasury to safeguard the interests of every different class.

I have not made an appeal to the Treasury during this period of stress and difficulty. On the contrary I have urged the agricultural community to accept this taxation loyally without a word. I have been speaking of the time, which we must all look forward to, when the War is over and the great stress is past.

No one should know better than the right hon. Gentleman that when the War is over the burden of taxation will be heavier than it is today. We have not yet realised the burden of taxation we shall have to bear to liquidate the debt when the War is over. There cannot be in our generation, and probably not for generations to come, any question of the reduction of taxation. The inevitable result must be increased burden on all sections of the community. I desire to say a few words about the Excess Profits Tax, and that is the reason I have come down to the House to-day. I am the only Member of this House—one out of 669 wise men and one fool—who has from the commencement of this War taken the View, because I am perfectly convinced that the House of Commons is wrong—that the only way to have approached this question, and the way that the Government ought to have approached it, was to have stated at the commencement that no one should make any profit out of this War. What has the Government done? By introducing a measure taking 50 per cent. of the profits made by manufacturers and others, they have landed themselves into a vicious circle which, the more it is considered and the more detailed consideration is given to it, the more foolish it seems to be. What is the effect of taking 50 per cent. of the excess profits? The result is that every section of the community moves in a vicious circle.

If the Government had laid it down at the commencement of the War that no one should make profit out of the War, workmen and other classes in the community would have had no claim to increased wages, and employers would have had no increased profit. Yet at the present time, a time of great national danger and stress, wages are higher in many industries than they have been in the history of this country. These wages are not being paid by the law of supply and demand working in a natural way, but they are being paid out of the capital of the country. This means that labour is receiving this great increase at a time when 3,000,000 of our population have joined the Colours and are mostly receiving something like 1s. 2d. a day. It means that the civil population are living in times of affluence on the capital of the nation, and that employers likewise are making large profits. Then the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes down to the House and says, "I want 50 per cent. of those profits," and the result has been that this Bill in every stage has been fought as if there had been no war at all.

An HON. MEMBER: No, no!

There has been opposition to practically every line of the Excess Profits Tax. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington (Mr. Lough) said in Committee that this Bill was robbery.

The right hon. Gentleman characterised it as robbery in an interjection to which I called attention at the time. He said, "You have robbed us," and then he added, that the Government were doing something else, but I can- not remember the exact words. He has held the view all through that this Bill is unfair and unjust, and is going to create great hardship. Do not let us have a deathbed repentance from the right hon. Gentleman when he has been from the commencement one of the strongest opponents of this measure.

The hon. Baronet himself, when it came to a question of dead heads in mines, used language that was as violent as anything I have said.

That statement is absolutely untrue, and I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to state now, clearly, what is the point that he wishes to make. He appears to have got hold of the wrong word. What he means to refer to was dead work. Would he like to know all about that?

Well, he shall know now. My right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, asked the hon. Member for St. Ives (Sir Clifford Cory) and myself, to see the Treasury officials on this question. There has been a charge of breach of faith made in this matter. When I came to look into the matter with the Treasury officials, I found that the charge on the Treasury would be so much that I withdrew my proposals and said I did not desire to have any concession made whatever.

I think that disposes of the interjection by the right hon. Member for Islington. His attitude only illustrates what we so often find in this House, and that is people who profess a desire to pay for a war, when it comes to paying for it they raise every objection to any tax brought forward with that object. Let us see what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done. In order to get this Bill through, because there has been so much opposition, he has sacrificed millions of money. He sacrificed £5,000,000 in giving two years instead of three years for the average. If he had taken an average of three years' profits instead of two years, which he gave as the option to traders, the Treasury would have received £5,000,000 more. I do not know why the special privilege was given to traders to take the two best of three years. It is a principle entirely opposed to the Income Tax proposals. It is not contained in any provisions of the Income Tax prior to this Bill. If is an enormous concession which was made to traders when the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave them the option of taking two years instead of three years. There is another way in which I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer has acted improperly, or, rather, acted too generously to trade and not generously enough to the community. Take the question of shipping. Enormous profits have been made out of shipping. Ships have doubled, trebled, and quadrupled in value during the last twelve months, and if a man sells a ship for quadruple the price of a year ago he can escape this tax.

An HON. MEMBER: Who says so?

I say that if a man has a ship which he sells for four times what he paid for it twelve months ago, and this is entirely due to the War, he escapes all taxation on that increased value which he has put into his pocket. That is what I term making money out of the War. From the commencement of the War I have held the view that no one should make money out of it, and you will have to come to that next year, because, though you have taken 50 per cent. this year, the exigencies of the position, in my opinion, will next year force the Chancellor to levy a much heavier burden. I want to emphasise what the hon. Member for Inverness said in regard to short-term loans. The hon. Member said he thought that the Chancellor should be able to raise a great deal of money on three-year and five-year bills. There is an enormous amount of money available in this country if he can only get hold of it.

Mr. Speaker drew attention to the fact a short time ago that that subject is not relevant to the Bill which we are now considering.

Mr. Speaker did call the hon. Member for Inverness to order, but he was enlarging on the question. If I am out of order in pursuing the matter I will not do so, if you were in the House at the time, but I thought that I might get a word in. Now just one word on the question of Free Trade. I have listened with amazement to the interruptions to the effect that Liberals have sacrificed the principles of Free Trade. I implore my right hon. Friend not to consider either Free Trade or Protection, but the interest of the nation; and the interest of the nation is to keep out all imported goods from this country at the present time in order to prevent money being sent abroad to pay for them.

We should import only the minimum amount of food which it is necessary to import at the present time. My right hon. Friend knows that our real weakness in carrying on this War is our importations, for which we have to pay in some way or other. I desire after the War to see that no more trade relations on a Free Trade basis should be established between this country and Germany. I am not in order in going into the question, but as other speakers have referred to it I do hope that at a later date the House and the country will have an opportunity of dealing with the situation which will arise after the War. I do ask my right hon. Friend not to hesitate during the War to meet the burden of taxation which we ought to face. On the Second Reading in the earlier part of this year I asked him a question and he shook his head at the time, but I think that it is a question which ought to be asked now before Parliament meets again and the new Loan comes in: Are we going to have a forced Loan or not? If we are going to have a forced Loan—

On the Third Reading hon. Members must keep to the contents of the Bill. There is no question of Loans contained in this Bill.

If I am not in order in pursuing the matter I will not trouble the House any further except to say, in conclusion, that I do think that the fault of this Budget is that it has only gone half-way in a halting manner in taxing excess profits. I do not say that it is the Chancellor's fault. His predecessor, the Minister of Munitions, failed to deal with the question. The whole thing is involved in a vicious circle. We are all living on capital. Workpeople and everyone are living in a state of prosperity. We ought all to make sacrifices. If the right hon. Gentleman brings us back to the point of insisting on all classes, instead of living in prosperity, getting their noses into the grinding stone, he will do a real service as Chancellor of the Exchange.

May I join my testimony to the very remarkable achievement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in having piloted with so much skill this remarkable Budget through the House of Commons. It is a remarkable Budget, as it is raising by extra taxation something like £100,000,000. Probably it is unprecedented in its magnitude, and I feel confident that every Member of the House owes the right hon. Gentleman a real debt of gratitude for the patience with which he has listened to the various grievances which have been brought before him. There is one other point in which I think this Budget is remarkable. It is not only a tribute to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but it is a tribute to the spirit of the British people. It merely shows that they will shrink from no sacrifice in order vigorously to conduct this War. I do not think that the example of the House of Commons in voting unanimously these enormous sums in taxation will be lost either upon neutral countries or upon enemy countries. It does show that the United Kingdom will tax itself in order to provide the sinews of war for the efficient conduct of the War. But while the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been successful in raising revenue, I wish that he could have been as successful in checking the gigantic Gargantuan waste in our Government Departments.

The House really must understand that on the Third Reading of the Bill speeches must be confined to matters in the Bill. What has now been referred to is not in the Bill.

I only called attention to it as an indication. I know that if the right hon. Gentleman has not been successful in curbing waste it is not due' to lack of will, but that he must have been overborne by other colleagues who have not his economic tendencies. But this is in the Bill, and I am very glad that he has made an essay—I think a rather brilliant essay—in checking the consumption of luxuries in the country. He has placed a tax upon certain imported luxuries. For that he has received a great deal of censure from some of my hon. Friends, who, like myself, are Free Traders. I remain a Free Trader, as I was before the War, and I can candidly say, having listened to the arguments, that if we were at peace I think that the reasons given for these import duties would have been effectually ridiculed by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Lough); but we are not at peace, and I think that the right hon. Gentleman has been perfectly justified in ignoring the question of Free Trade and Tariff Reform and endeavouring to do the best for his country at this time of national crisis. There is one other subject rather more of a personal nature to which I would like to refer. I had the privilege of serving under the right hon. Gentleman at the Board of Admiralty. I remember that in the year 1909 he was denounced by the economists of that day as guilty of extravagance and waste, but no one will say to-day that the right hon. Gentleman, when he made that splendid fight for the maintenance of the Navy, was not right, and I feel quite certain that when we look back in five or six years' time we shall be equally convinced that the right hon. Gentleman is right in endeavouring to check the consumption of luxurious commodities to-day. I do not agree with my hon. Friends that this will form a dangerous precedent. We must all realise that very great changes must result from the waging of this War. We have got a long way to go yet. The War is not nearly over. After the War we shall regard these Tariff Reform and Free Trade questions possibly with a different view, and I know full well we shall have to face a sentiment which we have not had to face in the past. Before the War-Germans were almost welcome in this country and were allowed to trade here, but after the War with the memory of the terrible horrors which have been perpetrated by them, I feel perfectly certain that British people will have some prejudice against trading with them in the future.

But I would rather that the right hon. Gentleman had gone a little further in his taxes. I would rather that he had put on an almost prohibitive tax on all imported luxuries. I would indeed prohibit the importation of all imports that did not help to win the War, and I cannot see that the taxes upon pleasure motor cars or cinema films have that effect. More than that, I would like to see the right hon. Gentleman if he could in some way put such a tax upon pleasure motor cars used in this country as would make them almost prohibitive. Why, the petrol has to be brought from abroad, and that of course puts down the foreign exchange. Every man who is engaged driving a pleasure motor car here is a potential munitions worker. For my part I only hope that next year when the right hon. Gentleman has to deal with the problem he will take effective steps to see that pleasure motor cars are so heavily taxed that those who can afford to keep them shall contribute a very considerable sum to the revenue. With regard to the Excess Profits Tax, it is perfectly certain that whatever criticism may have been made in this House my right hon. Friend has the country and the weight of opinion in the country behind him. There has been considerable criticism, but for the most part it has been criticism of detail. I am convinced from all my conversation with friends in the country that the country regards the right hon. Gentleman's proposals in the view that they are too moderate rather than that they err on the side of excessive severity.

I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that it would be a very wise principle if we indicated to this House and to the country that no person should make a profit out of this War. I would suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that next year, if he continues his tax, as I have no doubt he will have to do, instead of taking 50 per cent. of the excess profits he should take 80 per cent. There is a very large number of people in this country who are suffering very severely from the War. We know that war workers are now revelling in an orgy of fictitious prosperity, but the poor people, the consumers, who have to bear increased taxation, have, very many of them, also to bear a reduction of their incomes. If the more fortunate people who are making profits out of the War are not taxed on the increase which comes to them through the War, then it is fairly presumable that a larger proportion of burden falls upon people with small incomes. The class for whom I am now appealing are not a class who are organised, and they are undoubtedly suffering in consequence of the War from reduced incomes and higher prices; and if the fortunate people who have received war profits are not taxed, a greater burden must fall upon these poorer people, who are necessarily very much less able to bear it.

One word more, and that is to reinforce what has been stated by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chaplin) with reference to farmers. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer is justified in the change which he has made in the taxation of farmers. It will hit a very large number of farmers for the first time, but it has not been opposed by those who represent the farmers. I represent possibly as large a number of farmers as any Member of this House, and, as I have always understood it, the system of taxation under Schedule D for the farmers was a kind of balance, because they had to pay a very much larger sum to the local rates than was admittedly due from them. As my right hon. Friend said and it is within everybody's knowledge, rates have gone up by leaps and bounds on National Services like the maintenance of roads before the War at any rate, when roads were required to be made with the accuracy of a billiard table for motor cars, and the educational charges. Both these are really national charges, and they have fallen very heavily upon the farmers. As a class, the farmers are ready to bear their fair share of taxation; but I think we must enter the caveat that, when this War is over, if they are to bear this taxation which has been imposed upon them, some relief ought to be given to them in respect of the very heavy burdens of local taxation which they are called upon to bear.

I should like to join in the congratulations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in connection with this Bill, although it contains some things about which I feel some hesitation. The taxation of goods seemed to me to rest on a doubtful economic principle, and I still think so. The theory seemed to be that by keeping these goods from coming into this country we prevented money from going out, and thereby tended to rectify the balance of exchange. That proposition underlay the speeches of Ministers and others. The fundamental proposition has not been proved, and no attempt has been made to prove it. An hon. Member who spoke from these benches a short time ago made an observation to the effect that he would like to see goods stopped from coming into this country altogether. How could that rectify the balance of exchange? My own view is that the greater the volume of your foreign trade, the sooner the balance of exchange will be rectified. That is true of almost every country, and it is particularly true of our own country, seeing that we have got the carrying trade—that we have those invisible imports—both in respect of goods that are sent out and also goods that come into this country. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench laid great stress on the magnitude of the new developments which we will have to face. This is indeed a record Budget Bill and raises record taxation which has been developed to a great extent along its previous lines, but I think that before very long the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to go still deeper to the root of things, will have to deal with taxation on an even wider basis, to strike out new lines, and to think out new propositions. We want to have a system of taxation which not only will not hamper trade, but which will to some extent help trade, and also to some extent help production.

The hon. Gentleman who spoke from the other side referred to the case of the farmers, and the new Income Tax imposed upon them. He also mentioned the Report on agricultural depression which was issued some years ago. He spoke of the farmers on whom the results of the depression mainly fell, and of the reduction of rents made by the landlords. I am by no means certain that farmers during recent years have not been as well off as they were before the period of agricultural depression, yet those who hold interests in agricultural land have suffered very considerably. The taxation of farmers, as well as the taxation of householders, is doubtless higher, and it has been made higher still by this Budget. It is really time, I think, for the House to consider whether the whole basis of the Income Tax ought not to be altered, and I put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that both as regards farming, the making of agricultural improvements, and the building of houses, the effect of this increased taxation will be detrimental to these industries. I want to help those industries as much as possible. Before the Bill leaves this House to go elsewhere I submit to my right hon. Friend, who will probably have a new Finance Bill to present before very long, that these things should be taken into consideration, and that he should try, as far as possible in dealing with the landed interest, whether relating to houses or to farms, or to production generally, to rearrange taxation as between the land and the buildings and improvements in such a way as to minimise the damage to production, and in point of fact, to increase production in this country as far as he possibly can. Upon the successful carrying out of that principle the well-being of this country will very largely depend.

I should like to be allowed to join in the tribute paid to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the manner in which he has conducted this Bill through the House. I must say that we owe him an immense debt for his courtesy, his assiduity, and also wonderful knowledge of all the features of the taxes which this Budget contains. I was one of those who urged very strongly that, at as early a date as possible, there should be a substantial addition to taxation, I began to urge that long ago, and I am very glad we have it now. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has made a substantial addition to our taxation. That addition is so great that the amount proposed to be raised in taxation has never been approached in any other Budget that has ever come before this House. His predecessor made additional taxation to the amount of £5,000,000 a year for three years, but the taxation imposed by the right hon. Gentleman in this Budget will yield, it is estimated, £102,000,000. I do not know whether that figure has been very much qualified by the modifications and changes which have been made in Committee, but I still think it very probable that the yield of taxation will be somewhere about the figure which I have named, even with the changes which have been made. We had a very interesting speech from the right hon. Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin), and I may perhaps congratulate him on certain changes that have taken place by reason of this Budget; at the same time, I do not think he can derive much hope in his desire to raise very large sums from indirect taxation. I do not see that he can derive very much comfort from this Budget in that respect, when one comes to examine the relative position of direct taxation and indirect taxation.

The figures show that direct taxation has been enormously increased, and I should like to call attention to the relative position of direct and indirect taxation. If we look back several decades we find that in 1889–90 indirect taxation was 55.6, and direct 44.4; in 1899–1900 the relative positions were, indirect 51.6, direct 48.4; in 1909–10, indirect 43.6, direct 56.4; and in 1912–13, indirect 42.4 and direct 57.6. By the present Budget indirect taxation contributes only about 25 per cent. and direct taxation 75 per cent. showing that this is a very great advance in direct taxation. I think, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon cannot derive very great comfort from these figures. He suggested that it was increasingly necessary to resort to indirect taxation, but, at any rate, so far as this Budget is concerned, we have the very great advantage of putting a large amount of taxation on the direct basis and not on the indirect basis. I should like to congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the substantial change made in Schedule B. I think it was overdue, and I believe the farmers felt that the time had come when they should take their part in contributing fairly to the revenue of the country. While congratulating the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that, I hope the principle upon which he has acted will be of a more permanent character than the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon has suggested. It is a fair and just change that has been effected, and the farmers have the remedies in their own hands; they have only to keep accounts and they will be in the same position as the whole of the rest of the taxpayers of the country. I do not think there is any need to contemplate a change from the principle which has been now introduced.

I cannot say so much for another feature of this Budget, and I regret its introduction at the present time. I refer to those taxes which have a protective character. I have from time to time drawn attention to the fact that in every country in Europe which has been relying on protective taxes, and taxes on food particularly, which form an essential and vital part of any system of Protection, they have had without exception to either absolutely and entirely abandon all their taxes on food or reduce them almost to zero. That has been a universal phase of the effect of the War upon Protection. After the War, when heavy demands will be made upon them, and enormous undertakings, they will either have to impose new and heavy taxes on food or abandon a great part of their Protection system of taxation. With that example before us, I regret extremely that the Chancellor should have made this excursion into the Protection area. It is true he has modified it, and the sum is extraordinarily small. It was really not worth while doing it at all, and certainly not from the point of view of revenue. A change of this kind ought not to be made unless it were shown to be vitally necessary to meet the difficulties of our finances. I do not think the Chancellor was justified in introducing such a feature into his Budget.

There was another principle which the Chancellor introduced, and that was the taxation of non-residents. I should like to acknowledge the modification which the Chancellor was good enough to make in that proposal upon the objection being placed before him, and also to acknowledge the assurance which he has given us that, if the difficulties which we feared and anticipated, through the operation of that Clause, did in fact come about, that he was quite willing and ready in his next Budget to modify the Clause. I hope those difficulties may not arise, and that, if they do, he will be able to carry out that promise, and to give the relief which is essential to the very vital interests of the trade of our country. I desire also to thank the Financial Secretary to the Treasury for the very striking and very remarkable pronouncement which he made on the Second Beading, and in which he urged on the country the vital need of economy and of sacrifice. He pointed out the enormous tasks which were imposed on this country in this great War, and how it was impossible for a great portion of our wealth to be made available for fighting the War, so far as it consisted of houses, railways, warehouses, and machinery. He pointed out that what we wanted was goods and services produced by the hands of the people, and that unless we had those men to contribute to those services, it was impossible for us to discharge the burden placed upon us. I propose to follow that line of argument.

All these remarks were strictly relevant to the Second Reading Debate, but they are quite out of place on the Third Reading. The Debate must now be confined to what is contained within the four corners of the Bill.

I regret I had not the opportunity of following the right hon. Gentleman on that occasion. I hope that the estimate which the Chancellor has made, will be fully realised, and that if this gigantic responsibility should continue for any length of time, that he will be ready to come forward and to give a further turn to taxation, and thus lose no time in getting immense sums towards what is now being spent. It is far easier for the country to bear taxation to-day than it can possibly be at the end of the War. There is no alternative. You have either to get it to-day, or after the War. I do beg of him to follow up the good principle in which he has made so good a beginning, and to bear in mind that too long an interval should not elapse, if we are still faced with this expenditure.

I should like to add my congratulations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the way in which he has piloted this Bill so successfully through the House. He has put on some new taxes, and I congratulate him on that fact, because it is perfectly clear if we are going to raise, as we shall have to, some four hundred millions per year in taxation, new taxes must be necessary. I think that if instead of two or three new taxes we had a hundred, we should have endured them. With regard to those he has put on, I am very sorry he gave way to, shall I call it, the clamour of interested parties, because in subsequent Budgets, which I hope he will have the pleasure of passing, he will have to face that, and in a great deal acuter form. The weakest spot in the new taxes fixed upon, if possible, and he is induced by some method to reduce, or cut out a portion of that tax. When he has once given way on that point, it is then said that the tax is so small that it is not worth putting on at all. That was the universal procedure on these new taxes, and I hope that in subsequent Budgets he will set his teeth against any such clamour. He gave way, unfortunately, on two points in favour of the great emporiums at the expense of the small shopkeepers and traders. Those great emporiums have large finances, and are able to get up an agitation against any tax which presses upon them, and to get the daily Press, for they are great advertisers in the Press. Those great firms will use their greatest influence, as they have done, to get taxes which press on them, reduced. The principal example was when the Chancellor gave up the tax on trading motor vehicles. That is directly in favour of those great stores and businesses in London, which are extending further and further into the country, as their facilities for delivering goods are increased. I am very sorry that they have been favoured in that way. If they had not, the same amount of goods would have been bought, but in the neighbourhoods of those who require them, instead of being sent out from London by motor vehicles. Another matter that he gave way upon was with regard to postage stamps and duties, and there again that concession was very largely in favour of those same firms who do so much business by advertising and circularising. I could have wished that the Chancellor had followed the Canadian example and put a tax of ½d. on everything posted in the letter box. That would bring home to everybody—

On a point of Order. Shall we be allowed to go into this question of the halfpenny postage? I think, in obedience to a ruling that you, Sir, gave, a separate Bill was brought in by the Post Office dealing with this matter. The hon. Member is now regretting that the Chancellor of the Exchequer withdrew the halfpenny postage scheme.

The hon. Member is quite right. I had forgotten that postage was not dealt with in this Bill.

6.0 P.M.

I am wrong in referring to it, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman may consider the question in the next Budget. With regard to the Income Tax, it has been marvellous, and I believe it has surprised the Chancellor himself how it has been paid in, without any objection from any quarter, although it is now at a rate which nobody could have conceived possibly ten years ago. At that time 1s. in the £ was thought to be a very high rate of Income Tax taxation. Many people now who pay Income Tax here have also to pay abroad in the Colonies, and the total taxes upon them are very heavy, but they have borne them without a word of regret or murmur, because they feel they are paying their share of the War. It is felt, however, in the City that if the Income Tax is maintained at its present rate it will transfer a very considerable amount of business which is now conducted in England through limited companies to foreign companies. I am perfectly convinced of that. I heard in the last few weeks in the City many statements made—that many companies which are there will give up their London offices and transfer their headquarters to Canada or Australia, or somewhere else where they are doing business. That means that a great deal of revenue will be lost to the country. It is the belief that business cannot be carried on in the City of London with an Income Tax of 3s. 6d. in the £. I hope the Financial Secretary will note that fact. For the moment they are paying it willingly. There is one other question which goes to the root of the whole of this taxation. The expenditure at the present time is said to be about £3,500,000 per day in this country. The remainder of the total expenditure of £5,000,000 is probably spent abroad, and the Chancellor has no means of touching that £1,500,000. Some of the £3,500,000 spent in this country will be caught by the Excess Profits Tax, but only a small portion, and the great bulk of that expenditure, a great deal of which is not wisely spent, is not subject to taxation. If the Chancellor could only provide some means in a subsequent Budget of getting at that great source of revenue he could bring in millions, and from what would undoubtedly be the very fairest source. Why should not taxation of this kind be done at the source, like the revenue of any ordinary individual who gets a dividend is taxed at the source? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider that before his next Budget, and that this will be the main source of revenue that he has left to tax. New taxes will have to be imposed, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer can divert a portion of this enormous expenditure into the coffers of the Treasury, whether in the form of Government payments being made partially in loan stock, or otherwise, he will be doing a great amount of good.

If the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not tired of congratulations, I should like to tender him my tribute for the clear, concise, and courteous manner in which he has piloted this Bill through the House. I am sure he will join with me also in thanking the Financial Secretary to the Treasury for the able way in which he has assisted us to get at the bottom of this very elaborate Bill. I join with the hon. Baronet the Member for the Mansfield Division (Sir A. Markham) in regretting that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been led away by the wiles of the right hon. Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough), and that he has given away so much. In one instance he is said to have given away to the amount of £5,000,000, and there are many other instances where his kind heart has given way to the appeals made to him. Perhaps next time he will shut it up more. May I say how glad I am that a Committee has been appointed so that the wage earners may have a more attractive and simple way put to them by which they may be encouraged to contribute to the War Loan? I hope and believe that all classes, high and low, gentle and simple—

I was going to give a very attractive illustration, which would have gone home to the House.

I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I am glad that he has got to the end of this Bill.

When we get to the Third Beading of an ordinary Finance Bill it may well be regarded as fait accompli and had better be debated as little as possible. But in view of the fact that we know there is another Budget in course of preparation, there are two or three points which it would not be right to pass over on the present occasion, even though it is the Third Reading, because they involve practical considerations of which account will have to be taken in the future. The hon. Member for the Mansfield Division regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not taking 100 per cent. of all war profits. The hon. Baronet completely overlooked the fact that what the Chancellor of the Exchequer is doing is to make good to some extent the omission of his predecessor to raise taxes to a high enough level in the early days of the War. He is not taxing war profits at all, but he is going back as far as anybody can reasonably expect him to go—nearly a full twelve months before war was declared— and taking a very substantial portion of any excess profits. There is nothing to prevent the Chancellor of the Exchequer in any future Budget considering profits that really are made in the war period and taking any higher percentage, even up to that suggested by the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division. I do not think the hon. Member was right in tarring the whole House with the brush of the right hon. Member for West Islington, because the vast majority of the discussions on detailed points were not promoted by any opposition to the Excess Profits Tax, either the amount or the period, but were directed to removing inequalities in its incidence.

If the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to continue the Excess Profits Tax in future Budgets, and particularly if he increases the percentage, he must make it fall equally on all traders alike, in the same business and in the same place. I do not think there has been any general surprise that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had to abandon the original basis of that part of the Bill, namely, that he was taxing war profits. He says that he is taxing peace profits, and that he is doing so because he needs money to carry on the War. Nobody objects so long as it falls fairly upon all. But in two or three respects the tax is absolutely irregular in its incidence. We have tried to remedy these defects, but have failed. I admit that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in a great difficulty, because he had already constructed the basis of his tax; but I feel certain that the defects can be remedied in a future Finance Bill. The first defect is that owing to the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer takes the termination of the accounting period as the commencement of the period on which you pay the Excess Profits Tax, he is undoubtedly taxing some people for nearly twelve months more than he taxes others. His only justification is that it will all come right at the end of the period. I believe that that is an entirely fallacious argument. Nobody can prophesy whether there will be any excess profits at all in the final period to which the tax applies. It is quite possible that the excess profits may have run off before then, and that all that will be happening will be a series of claims for repayment of Excess Profits Tax paid in the past, due to deficiencies in the final period of the tax. If profits run level after the first increase there will be no further Excess Profits Tax to take, or it will become less and less.

There is a further defect, which can be easily remedied, but which will produce a great sense of injustice as the tax is collected. The Chancellor of the Exchequer takes as the accounting period the period for which the accounts have normally been made up in the business. Therefore he compares a six months' period in one case with a twelve months' period in another. I am certain that that will produce a sense of grievance, not with regard to the amount of the tax, but as to the irregularity of its incidence. On the question of the definition of capital the right hon. Gentleman will find that he has left out all municipal undertakings and most statutory companies from the privilege of being able to fix a pre-war statutory percentage on capital, because they are practically entirely in the case of municipal authorities, and to a very large extent in the case of statutory companies dealing with borrowed capital—capital which they are authorised by Parliament to borrow—and all that they are able to do is to deduct from the profits the amount of interest actually paid on the borrowed capital. Therefore these companies and undertakings, which certainly ought not to be specially penalised, have had the provisions of the Bill in this respect made quite inoperative, so far as they are concerned. That is a matter that will have to be put right. A minor blemish is that while Clause 45 (6) provides that when the Commissioners of Income Tax decide that Excess Profits Tax is due it must be paid at once, whether there is an appeal pending or not, the same Sub-section provides that if the appeal shows that Excess Profits Tax was not due at all, the amount is to be refunded, but no interest is to be paid upon it, although the Treasury may have had the use of the money for three, four, or six months. That cannot possibly be regarded as fair and equitable. Money is getting very scarce and rising in value, and I do not think it can have been intended that this should be done.

With regard to the Import Duties, I was glad to hear the right hon. Member for Swansea and the hon. Member for Inverness say that their only complaint now is that these duties are so few and so inadequate. Both hon. Members said that they would have heartily supported, quite regardless of any economic theories, any proposals for taxation designed to keep out imports altogether, while the right hon. Member for Swansea declared that he was in favour of the prohibition of imports. These taxes were designed, according to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for three purposes: to redress the foreign exchanges, to check purchases abroad, and to produce revenue. My complaint is that so few of these articles have been selected, on a principle which it is impossible to discover, that they will do very little to secure any one of these objects. I am firmly convinced that a far better method to proceed upon is to put a fairly high tax on such articles—I should not complain if the Chancellor of the Exchequer found it necessary to increase the present 33⅓ per cent. in regard to some articles—because it has the additional advantage of producing a certain amount of revenue from people who somehow or other escape the other imposts and have a margin of income still to spare, if they are able to afford these luxuries from abroad. Those people should certainly contribute to the revenue, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer is perfectly right in giving them the opportunity of so contributing. There is only one other point I want briefly to touch upon. I do ask the right hon. Gentleman seriously to consider that very small Clause 2 in this Finance Bill which deals with cocoa. Take it as an example.

I can show the right hon. Gentleman that there are enormous imports of manufactured chocolate both from Switzerland and from the United States. The Swiss chocolate is manufactured with enemy sugar. One of the principal firms, Suchards, is controlled entirely by a German-born subject, who has had a very high honour quite recently from the Kaiser. He has been the subject of investigation by the French Foreign Office. When M. Delcasse was Foreign Minister he informed the Mayor of Lyons that this was a German-controlled company, that M. Karl Rüss had preserved his German nationality, and had recently had conferred upon him the dignity of Geheimer Kommerzienrat—an honour only given to persons of German nationality. If the right hon. Gentleman had looked at the import figures of the Board of Trade, and had taken into consideration that this imported luxury was manufactured with enemy sugar, and that in respect of this firm the profits must, to a large extent, go to the enemy, I am perfectly certain he would never have framed Clause 2 of this Finance Bill on the basis of merely putting an additional half penny tax upon raw cocoa coming into this country, or a corresponding percentage on the cocoa contents of the imported manufactured article. I beg that he will take what I have given as an example, and look at the Board of Trade figures and see how he can make his Finance Bill more a war measure, to be used for the collection of revenue—as one of our weapons to support the credit of this country and to injure the credit of our enemies.

I am convinced that in war time that is a perfectly fair and proper weapon to use. It will be extremely potent. It cannot possibly be used unless figures are carefully gone into, unless the statistics which are available are examined, and unless each tax, even one that may look like a comparatively unimportant tax, like the tax on cocoa, is looked at from the correct point of view, and is not allowed to be merely a perfunctory increase such as might be put on if you wanted a slight additional revenue in ordinary times of peace. I am glad to feel we have got through this Finance Bill. I regret it has taken so long to go through the House. I attribute that to the fact that although the Chancellor of the Exchequer has, I am sure, done all he possibly could to meet the objections that have been raised, yet we have had very novel taxes to deal with. They will not be so great a novelty in the next Finance Bill. I feel satisfied if the right hon. Gentleman will carefully study these two questions of making the taxes more equal, so far as he possibly can, we will see what we should all like to see, a finance measure as a measure for carrying on the War. He will, if he does this, find the next Finance Bill, even if he has to raise a very much larger revenue, go through the House with very much less criticism than has been incurred on this occasion.

I have been requested to put a question to my right hon. Friend. He will doubtless remember that on the Report stage the life assurance companies were placed in a different position to the other insurance companies. I want to ask whether, if the marine companies find that they would in any future Budget prefer to be placed with the life assurance companies, whether, at any rate, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will meet them and hear their case? I do not think it is a very serious matter for 1914. But the question will be a much bigger one in 1915, and I would ask if my right hon. Friend will promise to hear those concerned if they wish to be placed on a level with the life assurance companies?

I shall be very happy to give the assurance for which my hon. Friend asks. I did not intend to speak on the Third Reading of the Bill, and I do not now intend to speak, but rather to listen—for my task is over—for guidance for the future. I may say, however, that I am very much indebted to the House for the way in which they have received this Bill. I hope that on the next occasion I may be as fortunate as now in obtaining the assistance of the whole House in passing my Bill.

As one of those who protested against the Budget on two occasions in regard to certain taxes I think it only right that I should say that, so far as I am concerned, no evidence has been produced that has caused me to alter or withdraw one single word that I said. I rather rise to say that the evidence I have in my possession to-day goes to prove the the statements I made then is more than ever true in regard to the particular industry of which I spoke. I also want to draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the fact that when I questioned him about these musical toys I understood from him, and appreciated his answer to mean, that there was not to be a tax upon those particular things. Now I understand there are goods coming into the country costing a shilling on which the Excise or Customs official are charging an extra tax of 3½d. or 4d. each. It is of the utmost importance that the House, the country, and the merchants in the City should know exactly where they stand. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer kindly to look into that matter, because the answer he gave in the House has been taken to mean outside that there would be no tax whatever charged upon these children's toys which I brought into the House that afternoon much against the rules of the House. I may add that I enjoyed very much the opportunity of putting before the Chancellor of the Exchequer those things which he said he would not tax. To-day I have in my possession evidence—

Not toys, but evidence from merchants in the City which goes to prove that someone is at fault in the Customs Department.

If you please. Therefore I want to congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the way in which he has piloted this Bill through the House; to ask him to give some attention to these minor matters, and to rest assured in his own mind that when I said that piano makers were putting on 33⅓ per cent. that that evidence is perfectly true to-day.

Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

Increase of Kent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill

Considered in Committee—[ Progress, 8th December ].

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 3.—(Interpretation and Application.)

(1) For the purposes of this Act:—

( a ) The expression "standard rent" means the rent at which the dwelling-house was let on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, or, where the dwelling-house was not let on that date, was last let before that date, or, in the case of a dwelling-house which was first let after the said third day of August, the rent at which it was first let:

( b ) The expression "standard rate of interest" means in the case of a mortgage in force on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, the rate of interest payable at that date, or, in the case of a mortgage created since that date, the original rate of interest:

( c ) The expression "rateable value" means the rateable value on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, or, in the case of a house or part of a house first assessed after that date, the rateable value at which it was first assessed.

(2) This Act shall not apply to any house the rateable value whereof exceeds forty pounds, but save as aforesaid shall apply to a house or a part of a house let as a separate dwelling (including any garden or other premises within the cartilage thereof) and situate in an area to which this Act is for the time being applied by Order in Council, where either the annual amount of the standard rent or the rateable value of the house or part of the house does not exceed—

( a ) in the case of a house situate in the administrative county of London, thirty pounds; and

( b ) in the case of a house situate elsewhere, twenty-one pounds;

and every such house or part of a house shall be deemed to be a dwelling-house to which this Act applies.

(3) Where for the purpose of determining the standard rent or rateable value of a dwelling-house to which this Act applies it is necessary to apportion the standard rent or rateable value of the property in which that dwelling-house is comprised, a County Court may, on application by either party, make such apportionment as seems just, and the decision of the Court as to the amount to be apportioned to the dwelling-house shall be final and conclusive.

(4) This Act shall apply to every mortgage of real property where the mortgaged property consists of or comprises one or more dwelling-houses to which this Act applies, except that it shall not apply to an equitable mortgage or charge by deposit of title deeds or otherwise.

(5) This Act shall apply only to the rent payable by a tenant in actual occupation of the premises and to mortgages by the immediate landlord of such tenant:

Provided that where this Act has become applicable to the rent payable by any tenant, or to the rate of interest payable under any mortgage, it shall continue to apply thereto notwithstanding that the dwelling-house is subsequently sublet by the tenant.

Amendment proposed [8th December]: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (8)—["The expression 'standard rent' means"]—insert the words "in a case in which the rent has not been increased before the twenty-fifth day of November, nineteen hundred and fifteen."—[ Mr. Hohler. ]

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

I do not see present my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment. I had hoped very much that it would not be necessary to press this Amendment, if only for this single reason: that what my hon. Friend proposes would not meet the desire of avoiding the consequence that he thought I anticipated if any allowances were made in respect of certain increased house rent. The two Amendments taken together certainly have this effect, that they would allow the statutory increase after the given period. I would like to point out that we are dealing with rents of the value probably of 3s. or 4s. a week at the lowest, and which run up to 16s. or 17s., or even more. To take a fixed sum of 6d. and apply that to all these rents would obviously be limiting the Parliamentary Statute, and it would be altogether inequitable comparing the different rents. What might be right on 4s. might not be right on 14s. a week. Obviously it is wholly an incompetent burden, and on these grounds I hope that the Committee will not adopt the proposal.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph ( a ), after the word "date" ["was not let on that date"], to insert the words "the rent at which it."

This is purely a drafting Amendment.

The next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for Oxford University (Mr. Prothero), refers to what has been already disposed of.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), at the end of paragraph ( a ), to add,

"Provided that in case at any time within a period of ten years before the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, the dwelling-house had been let at a higher rent than that at which it was let on that date, then such higher rent shall be deemed to be the standard rent for the purposes of this Act."

My hon. Friend who put this Amendment down (Sir F. Lowe) has been obliged to leave the House. It is pointed out to me by him that in Birmingham, the conditions of which he knows, there are a number of houses—indeed, a whole district—in which, owing to the Finance Act of 1909–10, houses were depreciated in value. In consequence of their general depreciation the rents were reduced. Those rents have been permitted to continue where the old tenants have remained in possession, but where new tenants have gone in the rents have gone up to their marketable value. That was before this Bill was contemplated, or even before the War. The object of the Amendment that I have been asked to move is that in those cases the rent of the new letting, so long as it does not exceed the highest rent obtained within the period of ten years, may be regarded as the standard rent. I would ask the President to give the matter his consideration, and with that object I move the Amendment.

The Government could not accept this Amendment. It is no doubt perfectly true that from the beginning of the century there has been a decline in the value of house property, but it has been rising and fluctuating—and, indeed, all property fluctuates from time to time. The only sound ground upon which the Government can rest, and advise the Committee to rest, is to take the pre-war period rent as the rent which is the standard rent. To embark on anything else would be to undertake an impossible task. It would need a large amount of investigation, and would lead to one of the results we desire to avoid, namely, great delay.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), at the end of paragraph ( a ), to insert,

"In cases where the rent of any dwelling-house, or part of a dwelling-house, was at the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, below the rent of adjacent and similar houses the standard rent on any new letting shall be deemed to be the rent at which the greater number of such adjacent and similar houses were then let."

This is a proposal that where the rent of a dwelling-house, or part of it, is below the rent of the adjacent or similar houses, that they should be the criteria. I quite agree that a good many of the observations which have fallen from the right hon. Gentleman just now answer this Amendment. I am very unwilling to press it, although I undertook to move it formally, at the request of by hon. Friend (Mr. Boyton).

I congratulate my hon. and learned Friend on his courage, and I am full of admiration for the discretion of my hon. Friend whose place he has taken, because I think this is the most impossible of all the Amendments suggesting some standard other than the pre-war standard. Of course, I am no expert on these questions, but I imagine everyone knows that the letting of houses depends on a variety of circumstances, which lead to great variation in rents even in the same street or same district or same area, and I do not know how on earth it would be possible to arrive at the rent described in the Amendment. There is no recognised data on which to go, or any machinery by which to arrive at a decision, and it would involve a tribunal. I hope my hon. and learned Friend will not think me guilty of discourtesy if I offer no other reason against the Amendment.

I think the next Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Hertford (Sir J. Rolleston) is practically the same point.

I beg to move, at end of Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), to insert the words,

"Provided that in no case shall the standard rent be taken as less than the normal and fair rent of any dwelling-house, even if that rent has been payable only since the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, and as to whether such rent is a fair and normal rent, and not excessive, shall be decided by a house agent nominated by the President of the Local Government Board."

I should like to move this because, from evidence we have from many large towns, the pre-war rent is in many cases not the normal rent of the house. A recovery of rent was taking place when War broke out. That recovery in places like Birmingham and other large places had not yet taken effect, and therefore I think it would be an injustice to the owners of this class of property to stereotype and describe as a standard rent, a rent which is less than the fair and normal rent for the house. I do not think the object of this Bill is to enable houses to be let at less than the proper rent, and I can only suggest that if a fair rent or normal rent is not to be obtained, this Bill will cause houses to be let and the standard rent to be taken at less than the proper value. That is a matter of injustice, I think, which ought to be remedied. I have no wish to press the Amendment if the right hon. Gentleman so desires.

I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend for telling me he will not press this Amendment, because I could not accept it, if only for one reason that it proposes to cast on the President of the Local Government Board a duty for which I for one, as the present holder of the office, would be most reluctant to undertake. It is quite true that one of the difficulties in legislation of this kind which fixes a standard rate, either of rent or of interest, or of the price of any commodity, is that justice in some quarters may be incurred. But I put it in this way: Is it not a fact that the majority of people have had to suffer in consequence of the War, either in loss of income or in some other way which has been very serious? For instance, we talk of a large section of the wage-earning portion of the community being better off to-day than before the War. But is it not also true that they are better off because they are working under conditions which entail a much greater strain on their physical powers than they ever underwent in pre-war times; and, therefore, I think it might fairly be said that on the whole the burden of the War is felt by everybody—one by a loss of income and another by some other form of personal labour which is serious. What are we doing? We are asking that people shall be willing, for the period of the War, to be content with the income from certain classes of property which they were receiving before the War broke out. I do not think there is any very great injustice in that, even although it may be proved that at that time they were temporarily suffering from a diminution in the value of the property. There is a war, and it calls for special legislation.

Amendment negatived.

The next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Sir F. Lowe), is outside the scope of the Bill. The Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Esslemont) deals with a very similar matter to that which we have already settled.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ), to leave out the words, "the rate of interest payable at that date," and to insert instead thereof the words, "interest at the rate of four per cent., or such higher rate of interest as was payable prior to the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen."

I should like to be allowed to explain to the Committee why I have put down this Amendment at the instance of the directors of the largest building society in Scotland, the headquarters of which happen to be situated in the constituency which I have the honour to represent. I was first asked whether I would use my influence with the right hon. Gentleman and the Secretary for Scotland to get- building societies eliminated from the Bill altogether. I pointed out that, in my view, I did not think that was a reasonable request to make, and as an alternative I was asked whether the proper course would be to sterilise the rate of interest at 4 per cent. The reason why I was asked to use my influence in that direction was that a very great number of the mortgages of this particular society were fixed at prewar rates of 3½ and 3¾ per cent., and the building society was very much concerned as to what the fate of their deposits would be. This was a point very fully discussed on a previous occasion, so that I will not enter at length into it. The directors of this society seemed to think that if they had the power to increase the pre-war rate of interest to an amount not exceeding 4 per cent., they might be able during the period of the War to grant to their depositors a rate of interest which would prevent any run on the society, and it did appeal to me as a rather reasonable suggestion. I think the Committee will agree that the mortgagor who is not faced with a demand for a higher rate of interest than 4 per cent. on any existing mortgage may consider himself remarkably lucky, and I think, on the whole, it is a reasonable suggestion. I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman will reply to me by saying that while we are sterilising the rent we must at the same time sterilise the rate of interest as well. I sympathise with that argument, but it seems to me the request I am making is a reasonable one which might be acceded to by the right hon. Gentleman. I am sure it would, to a great extent, relieve the anxiety of building societies, and on this ground I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment.

What my hon. Friend said is perfectly true to this extent, that it would be quite reasonable for anybody who is in the position of having borrowed money which did not exceed 4 per cent., and I believe there are a limited number of cases in the country where the interest was below this sum before the War, and where, consequently, some small measure of injustice is done. May I put the case as it appears to me? We have, as my hon. Friend reminded the Committee, sterilised the rent. Now the people who own houses and charge rent have behaved, I venture to say with great public spirit since this proposal was made public, because they have really offered practically no opposition, although it means a very considerable loss to them. They have taken the position that if they are to be prevented from increasing their rent above the pre-war period they should remain the same in regard to the interest they are paying on mortgage. That seems to me a, reasonable compromise between the two. I do not think the number of cases affected by the Amendment would be considerable. If I believed the acceptance of an Amendment like this would really deal with cases of societies to which my hon. Friend has referred, I should be very much tempted to ask the Committee to give it consideration on Report stage. But no such evidence has reached me, and I have had no applications to put in the Bill any alteration of the kind. I admit it would not be very far-reaching in its effect, but it would be a departure from the arrangements at which we have arrived both on the floor of this House and elsewhere, and in those circumstances, unless a very much stronger case could be established for this alteration connected with the future stability of these great societies, I should be obliged to ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, perhaps for other reasons than he has mentioned, but before going into that, may I say I notice with surprise that he gave official sanction to the use of the word "sterilise" applying to rates of interest. I confess I do not know what it means. But that is a minor criticism, for which I may be excused. I want to make one other remark in reference to what was said Toy the hon. Member who moved this Amendment, and who pleaded on behalf of building societies. I always thought an agreement between the borrower and the building society was one which was unchangeable, and that if the borrower pays his mortgage and makes his repayments there is no power in building societies to increase the rate of interest. If that is so—and I am convinced it is—then it seems the whole case with regard to building societies disappears. In any case, on the merits of the Amendment, I oppose it.

There is a case here to which I venture to hope between now and Report the right hon. Gentleman may give his attention. There are a great number of instances in which amounts have been advanced on mortgages, and, since the War began, owing to the tightness of money and the various expenses which are incurred on all hands by the increased prices we have to pay, the mortgagors have voluntarily agreed to pay, say, 4½ per cent. instead of 4 per cent. Very often the amounts advanced are comparatively small. They are the savings ings of the working classes themselves, and this is a somewhat favourite form of investment with some well-to-do working classes and small tradesmen. These comparatively small amounts are advanced on mortgage, very often by the local people themselves, and if those who have had these advances have voluntarily agreed to some small increase in the rate of interest it does seem hard to go behind that and set aside all such agreements automatically, and to lay down that whether they have agreed or not the standard rate of interest must be taken, and that there shall be no appeal. I think there is a hardship entailed here upon a class who are entitled to some protection, and I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to see if he cannot consider this point between now and the Report stage.

My experience of these building societies is that they are well able to take care of themselves. Not a word has been said about the people who have borrowed this money, and who have entered into an agreement to pay a certain amount. They have been handed agreements stating that so long as they keep up their payments they shall not be disturbed in any way. I would like to remind the Committee that since the War commenced—I am now alluding more particularly to my own Constituency—the people who have borrowed various sums of money from these societies are being, and have been, called upon to insure their property against air raids and bombardments, and I may say that they have been compelled to do so by the pressure put upon them by these building societies. Before the Government brought out their insurance scheme they had to insure at very high rates, and paid as much as 10s. per cent. and over. Not a word has been said about these people, and they are bearing the whole of the burden. I gave an instance yesterday where a man had made his payments regularly for seventeen years, and now, at the latter part of the term, he has been given notice that unless he is prepared to pay 1 per cent. more interest they will take other steps; in fact, they have threatened to foreclose if he does not agree to pay 1 per cent. more interest, although he has an agreement. This gentleman has been to a lawyer, and has been told that the society has no case against him, and that they cannot enforce it. He is not going to pay it, I can tell you, and I sincerely trust that this House is not going to give a privilege of this kind to the building societies, because I am convinced that they are well able to take care of themselves.

It has been suggested that if this Clause were passed it would not help building societies, because under the agreements where mortgage money is repayable by instalments there is no power to change the rate of interest. Of course, if there is no power in the original agreements of this kind, then this Amendment would not give any such power. The facts are that some building societies lend money on this system of instalment mortgages, with power for the society to give notice to change the rate of interest. Other building societies lend money without any such power, therefore the effect of this Clause would be to enable those building societies which have reserved in the original bargain the power to change the rate of interest on instalment mortgages to do the same. It would also give to all building societies the power to give notice to call in mortgages, unless a change of interest was made, in cases of mortgages which are not repayable by the instalment system, but repayable under the usual six months' notice, or whatever the term is. The President of the Local Government Board has said that he has had no representations from the building societies on this point, but I think that I might say that the representatives of building societies will be only too glad to have a full opportunity of laying before him their views on this matter and the other aspects of their position, between now and the Report stage.

There seems to be some misunderstanding about these building societies. In the case of the society which I mentioned in Scotland, they have the right to vary the rate of interest from time to time, and that is not necessarily against the interests of their borrowers. Twenty years ago the society to which I am referring was lending money freely at 3 per cent. and 3¼ per cent., and they adopted the market rate fixed by the Faculty of Procurators in Glasgow or the Society of Advocates in Aberdeen. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give further consideration to this fact. If this would in any way relieve the pressure which is likely to be put upon any important building-society, I think it is an Amendment that might very well be accepted. I am speaking of cases where they have lent money for a fixed period of three or five years at 3½ per cent. or 3¾ per cent., and they should be entitled to raise the interest to 4 per cent., which is the rate at which anyone with good security could obtain money. I do not propose to press my point now, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give me an assurance that some further consideration will be given to my point. I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in paragraph (6), after the word "rate" ["the rate of interest payable at that date"] the words "or rates." The Subsection with the addition of my Amendment would then read,

"( b ) The expression 'standard rate or interest' means in the case of a mortgage in force on the third day of August, 1914, the rate or rates of interest payable at that date, or in the case of a mortgage created since that date, the rate or rates of the original rate of interest."

The point is that in many cases the rate of interest depends upon the fulfilment of some condition by the mortgagor, as, for instance, that the payments should be punctually made, or that a certain instalment of the principal should be paid. If those conditions are not fulfilled then a higher rate of interest is provided by the terms of the mortgagee. The purpose of my Amendment is to allow the terms of the contract into which the mortgagee and the mortgagor have entered to be carried out by allowing the higher rate of interest, if there is default on the part of the mortgagor in fulfilling the terms of his contract.

As I understand my hon. Friend's proposal, it is that there are a good many mortgages where the rate of interest varies according to certain conditions; for instance, that the mortgagor is called upon to pay 4 per cent., and if he does not pay it the rate may be raised under the mortgage to 5 per cent., or if he does not pay certain instalments at certain dates the rate of interest may be increased. That is an arrangement with which it is not in the least intended to interfere. I think the words as they stand in the Clause would enable those conditions to obtain. That is to say, even after the passing of this Bill, and after it becomes an Act, if the mortgagor fails to pay his interest according to the conditions laid down by the mortgagee he could then be charged a higher rate of interest. In any case my hon. Friend may take it from me that we will look carefully into the wording of the Bill as it stands, and if we find that protection is not given to such cases, my right hon. Friend will deal with the matter.

7.0 P.M.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider a further point. With great respect I question the effect of these words. I think the sentence quoted, "the rate of interest payable at," is a very doubtful phrase, especially where the rate may be an alternative one. If the right hon. Gentleman will promise to consider the wording, I will not press this point. I would, however, like to draw his attention to the next Amendment, which bears directly upon this point, and which I think would make the wording quite clear. In order to make it perfectly clear as to what is meant, I have made a suggestion which I think avoids all the consequential Amendments involved by my hon. Friend's Amendment. My suggestion is that we should leave out the words "the interest payable at," and insert "or rates of interests stipulated in the mortgage deed, or in any subsequent agreement, made prior to." That means prior to the 3rd day of August, 1914. There can be no question that that clearly indicates what is the intention of the Government. It would have another advantage. The Solicitor-General knows better than anybody in this House that you do not necessarily look to the mortgage deed for the rate of interest which is payable. There may be various subsequent documents altering the rate of interest by agreement, and it is quite clear that you must look not only to the mortgage deed but also to any subsequent documents which there may be. If you say in your Bill "the rate of interest payable at that date," a question may easily arise as to what really was the rate of interest which was payable at that date, and to avoid all possible mistake I suggest that you should add these words, and particularly the words "rate or rates." There are many reasons why there is an alterna- tive rate in the mortgage deed. I submit the wording of my Amendment for the consideration of the Solicitor-General.

I wish to call attention to a difficulty which may arise so far as Scotland is concerned if the words "rate of interest as stipulated in the mortgage deed" are inserted. It is the practice in Scotland to have a rate of interest in the deed which is not actually the rate of interest payable. It is the practice in most cases to have 5 per cent. interest in the mortgage deed. Consequently, if this Amendment as suggested by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. H. Smith) were inserted, it would entitle the mortgagee to charge 5 per cent. interest instead of the interest payable on 3rd August, 1915. I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate (Mr. Munro) will see that the interests of Scotland are safeguarded in this respect.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: In Sub-section (i), at the end of paragraph ( c ), insert the words,

"( d ) The expressions 'landlord,' 'tenant,' 'mortgagee,' and 'mortgagor' include the predecessors and successors in title of such persons."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

After the words last inserted, add the words "The expression 'mortgage' includes a land charge under the Land Transfer Acts."—[ Mr. Radford. ]

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the words last inserted, to add the words,

"The expression 'landlord' shall include any person in receipt of or entitled to the receipt of any rent to which this Act applies; and the expression 'tenant' shall include any person paying or liable to pay any rent to which this Act applies."

In some parts of the country there are considerable numbers of houses which are called tenement dwellings, the rents of which are paid by one individual. He sublets, and in some places one house is made into four tenements. We wish to safeguard the interests of the sub-tenant in the same way as the interests of the tenant are safeguarded, and we hope that the Government will see their way to accept the Amendment. It will prevent what I call the "sub-landlord" exploiting the tenant who takes a room, or two or three rooms, in one of these tenement dwellings.

I think the point is really covered by the Amendment just adopted by the Committee, and so far as it is not covered by that Amendment the words, which are rather wide, are likely to give rise to awkward questions. Perhaps the hon. Member will not press it now. We will consider it and see whether it is necessary to add any words to meet the point.

Seeing that this is only a temporary measure, I do hope that the Government will give us a promise that on the Report stage they will introduce words safeguarding the interests of the subtenants.

This is a very important point, though I am not quite sure that the words of the Amendment express the hon. Member's view. I have no doubt that the Solicitor-General is right, though I do not know the words to which he refers, but it is safe to leave it to him. I wish, however, to put another minor point. It happens in connection with these cottages that a receiver sometimes collects the rent for a few weeks for the mortgagee, without the mortagee actually foreclosing. What is his position? I am not certain that under the Bill he could not raise the rent. You have precluded the landlord from raising the rent, but so far as I know you have not precluded a mortgagee in possession. If I am right it is a serious defect in the Bill, and one which would be remedied by the Amendment. I hope the Solicitor-General will consider the matter. May I tell him, as one who has had considerable practical experience of this class of property, that the mortgagee is very frequently in temporary receipt of the rents, and when that does happen it is quite clear he must be bound, just as though he were the landlord himself.

I should like to draw the attention of the Solicitor-General to another point. I have put down an Amendment to omit Sub-section (5). If I understand that Sub-section aright, it lays it down that there is to be only one tenant and one landlord concerned in this matter of reduction. You have got to find one landlord who is not allowed to increase his rent. We know that in the case of these working-class dwellings there are sometimes not one but two and even three landlords who have something to do with the rental. I wish to understand whether Sub-section (5) means that there is to be only one landlord who is to be restricted in this way. If it is going to be, as I think it ought to be, all landlords, whether immediate landlords or above immediate landlords, then the Amendment now moved is not necessary; but if you are going to limit it to the immediate landlord or the person immediate above the occupier, and I do not think you ought to so limit it, then you have got to be very careful, or you will leave a considerable number of people in a position in which they will be able to increase their rents notwithstanding this Act.

I have a new Clause which goes fully into this question of the subtenant, but I do not know whether it would be ruled out of order after these prior Amendments have been considered.

My new Clause is designed to meet the case of a very large class of small houses where the tenant sub-lets a room, generally to a young man called the lodger or sub-tenant. I have heard of the rent of this class of sub-tenant being frequently raised by the landlord or what we should call the tenant of the house. This applies to thousands and thousands of cases in the large cities, and I am quite sure that the case will have to be met. Already I have heard grumbling that these rents are being raised considerably, and if that is so these men will be hit quite as hard as the tenant might be by the superior landlord. There may be a little difficulty in the matter, because frequently these tenants are taken at a price which includes their board as well. They generally pay 10s. or 12s. per week, of which 2s. or 3s. may be said to be the rent of the room. No doubt some fair amount would have to be allowed for the rent of the room. When they raise these rents, it may be said that it is on account of the increased cost of food; but there is not the slightest doubt, where there is great pressure, that they are letting these rooms and letting them twice over. If these cases are not provided for by the Bill there will be a very great deal of grumbling in the country, and I sincerely hope, therefore, that the matter will be thoroughly gone into.

The man who requires protection is not the sub-tenant, but the tenant who makes the sub-letting, because once he makes the sub-letting he puts himself out of all consideration by this Bill, whereas the person to whom he sub-lets is entitled to that consideration and will get the benefit of the Bill as against him. We had all this out under the Irish Land Acts. One of the greatest surprises of the Irish Land Acts was the decision given immediately after the Act of 1881 was passed. That Act enables an occupying tenant to come in and ask to have a fair rent fixed. An occupying tenant went into Court for that purpose. He was the occupier of 100 acres of land, but he had sub-let half an acre, and it was consequently held that he was not in occupation of the holding. That state of things went on until 1896, and an Act of Parliament had to be passed to deal with the question. That is a still stronger case, because there was nothing in the Act of 1881 which produced that result. It was simply a decision of the judges of the Land Court. But here there is an express provision in the Act that it shall apply only to the tenant in actual occupation. According to the land judge's decision a tenant is not in occupation if he has sub-let the smallest fraction of the land or premises, and, instead of the man who has got one room from the tenant requiring protection, it is the tenant of the house who will require that protection, because when he has parted with his room he cannot raise the rent against the man to whom he has sub-let, but his own landlord can raise the rent against him.

I think if hon. Members will look at the Bill and an Amendment which I have on the Paper, they will see that the whole thing has been realised and dealt with. The Mover of the Amendment, I take it, desires to protect the man who sub-lets, as well as the person to whom the room is sub-let. On Clause 3 an Amendment will be introduced, and it will protect every tenant in actual occupation. That Amendment will make it clear that the original tenant is also to be protected. When we come to Sub-section (5), of Clause 3, I shall propose to leave out the words "it shall continue to apply thereto notwithstanding that the dwelling-house is subsequently sub-let by the tenant," and to insert the following words,

"and the dwelling-house is subsequently sub-let by the tenant, this Act shall apply not only to the rent payable by the sub-tenant and mortgages by the tenant, but also shall continue to apply to any rent payable by the tenant, and any mortgage by his immediate landlord to which it has become so applicable as aforesaid."

I am afraid the actual words of the hon. Member's Amendment cannot be accepted. Indeed, I do not think they will be required.

If the right hon. Gentleman will make it clear in Clause 5 that it applies to sub-letting, I am willing to withdraw my Amendment.

Leave to withdraw Amendment withheld.

I did not object to the withdrawal of the Amendment with a view to obstructing the Debate, but I want to ask the Government whether they have considered the advisability of putting in a definition of the words "rateable value." I do not know what that term means as regards England, but I am aware that, wherever these words have been used in Acts relating to Ireland, they have been defined on the Clause as referring to the Poor Law Valuation Acts.

Is not the hon. Gentleman dealing with a Sub-section which has been passed already?

I do not want to stop the progress of the Bill. I simply want to ask a single question, whether the Government have considered the advisability of inserting a definition of the words "rateable value" as regards Ireland, at any rate?

Another opportunity must be taken of putting that question.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (2) leave out the words "shall not apply to any house the rateable value whereof exceeds £40, but save as aforesaid."—[ Mr. Yeo. ]

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "dwelling" ["let as a separate dwelling"], to insert the words "including a room let as a lodging and."

I do no know whether it is intended that lodgers shall be brought within the operation of this Bill, but I certainly think that one of the most important things that we should do is to protect the lodger. In the Bill as it stands the only limitation is to a house or part of a house let as a separate dwelling. I know there are in. the Franchise Acts definitions which include in the words "separate dwelling" the lodger who occupies a separate room, but I should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman has considered the desirability of extending the protection in the direction I have mentioned. I have no doubt that the case of a single room let to a lodger is intended to be covered, but I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, if he wishes to protect the lodger, these words should be inserted.

This point is one which I admit possesses great difficulty, and it was very desirable it should be raised here. It has not by any means escaped the attention of the Government. The case of the person letting a single room or part of a building as a lodging would clearly be included in this Bill. The reason why it is undesirable to introduce the word "lodger" is this: I am advised it would include the case of a man who pays a fixed price, not only for his room but for his board, and of course it is quite obvious the Committee would not think it right that a man who paid an increased price for his board and lodging should come under this Bill. We are advised that where he pays a fixed price for his room, and otherwise provides for himself, he is included in the Bill. Under these circumstances, I hope my right hon. Friend will not think it necessary to press his Amendment, because we cannot let into the Bill a word which would apply the measure to people who are obviously not intended to come within its provisions.

I do not quite know how this thing is going to be worked out, or how a pre-war standard is going to be arrived at in many cases. In many parts—particularly in munition districts—there are great numbers of people taking lodgers who have never taken them before. In many of these districts the prices charged for the room are altogether extortionate, because there are a great number of people, sometimes 20,000, over and above the total for whom there is proper housing accommodation. That fact is being taken advantage of by landladies, and I have evidence from many districts where they have imposed extortionate prices upon people occupying single rooms. It is very desirable indeed that these people should not be asked to pay more than a fair, just, and reasonable rent. But I am at a loss to know how a comparison is to be drawn between the present standard and the pre-war standard, seeing that in many thousands of cases there is no pre-war standard.

I anticipate a great deal of difficulty in regard to extending the protection to occupiers of a furnished room, because the amount of the rent not only covers the use of the bare room but it is also payment for the use of furniture, and very often for attendance, such as cleaning—services the fixing of the value of which is nothing like as simple a matter as is the decision of the rent of a house. If the Clause is intended to cover the case of the lodger, one must consider the position of, say, the poor widow woman who is letting her room. There are two sides to be considered, and I hope the Government will, between now and the Report stage, devise some means by which the figure can be properly arrived at.

I do not think the Government have sufficiently realised the importance of this precise question. In Dublin there are 20,000 families living in tenements of one room each. I am not exaggerating but rather understating the fact. In regard to those tenements I do not see what protection there is for those 20,000 tenants under this Bill.

In the first place, the question has been raised as to what would be the pre-war rent. I do not see how that can be established. If the basis is to be the rateable value of each of those rooms there is no provision in the Bill to define the rateable value of any part of a house, because in Ireland there is no valuation of separate parts of a house. I should be very glad if the Bill provided for those cases; but I asked a little while ago whether or not a definition of rateable value would be put into the Bill, and I received no answer. The reason I asked that question was particularly with reference to these tenements which are sub-let, and in regard to which the only person who would get any benefit at all is the landlord.

This is a matter of enormous complexity. It has all arisen because of the difficulty of saying what is a dwelling-house. Under the Franchise Acts the right to vote depends upon whether you have a dwelling-house or not. Those Acts give some assistance in the way of interpretation, but this Bill gives none. The right hon. Gentleman opposite is correct to this extent. It is perfectly clear that if occupying a room constitutes a separate dwelling, if it is the sole dwelling of the tenant, then he will be protected under the Bill. The difficulty has arisen under the Franchise Acts in regard to whether, in addition to having the sole use of one room, the occupier has the joint use of another room in another part of the house. The difficulty of coming to a conclusion of what the law means under the Franchise Acts has been very great. I think I am right in saying that different conclusions have been come to in the three countries. Certainly the law as to household franchise is not the same in England as it is in Ireland, because the Courts in England have taken one view of what is a dwelling and the Courts in Ireland have taken another. If the right hon. Gentleman has any leisure and will devote a little of it to considering the decisions under the Franchise Acts as to the meaning of a dwelling, he will see that in the absence of a more stringent definition there is ample room for litigation unless he does something before the Report stage to make the matter more clear. I agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman behind me (Mr. Clancy) that an additional difficulty arises in Ireland from the fact that the Irish law provides that for a house let in tenements there shall be only one rate. I fancy that is, to some extent, the law in this country also, but not to the same exent as in Ireland. The Solicitor-General has an Amendment down on the Paper dealing with the question of values, which is founded on the assumption that every dwelling-house is separately rated. Every dwelling-house is not separately rated. In the popular sense of the term it is separately rated, but under this Bill, as under the Franchise Acts, you have an artificial dwelling-house—a dwelling-house by definition—which may consist of only a single room, and consequently has no separate valuation. If the hon. and learned Member behind me (Mr. Clancy) will look at the Interpretation Act he will see there words which are intended to meet the case of rateable value. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman before the Report stage to consider whether in the case of Ireland he will not make some provision for the case where there is not a separate rating of a dwelling-house, and consequently whether he does not require some word making it clear that a room or two rooms is a separate dwelling in all cases.

I do not think it is the intention that this Bill should apply to ordinary apartments which are let at seaside places, where manifestly the landlord or the landlady charges a different rent at different seasons of the year and to different persons. Surely the Bill is intended to apply only to houses which are let unfurnished. The question now raised is whether, where there is a room or two rooms sub-let by a tenant who has taken the house unfurnished to a lodger, a permanent lodger, such as a workman coming into the neighbourhood, the rent should not be raised. We must be careful that we do not apply this Bill to furnished lodgings. If we do, it will lead to great difficulty.

I desire to ask the President of the Local Government Board a question. Supposing, as in the case of the city of Dublin, a man takes a tenement house and sub-lets it in rooms at, say, 4s. each. Is there anything in the Bill which would prevent him raising the rents of those single rooms?

As the right hon. Gentleman has so specifically assured us that the Bill as drafted includes a single room let as a lodging, I have, of course, no alternative but to withdraw my Amendment. I hope, however, that before we get to the Report stage the Government will again consider this point, because my own view—I may be wrong—is that if this comes to be decided in a Court of Law, the word would be considered to be specifically omitted for this reason, that in the Representation of the People Act, 1867, the Legislature has distinctly mentioned "lodging." It says:—

"The expression 'dwelling-house' means a house or part of a house which is a separate dwelling, and includes an apartment or lodging."

It was found necessary in that Act to mention the word "lodging." In this Bill the omission of the word "lodging" would, in my opinion, mean that the Courts would decide that it did not include lodging. I feel it is very important that it should be included, and if the right hon. Gentleman means to include a single room let as a lodging it ought to be specifically mentioned. As the right hon. Gentleman has said that it does include it, I will leave the matter there and ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

I only desire to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the protection which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dickinson) seeks is not found in the words,

"This Act shall not apply to any house the rateable value whereof exceeds forty pounds, but save as aforesaid shall apply to a house or a part of a house let as a separate dwelling."

I did not appreciate the fact that those words were struck out. If they are struck out, perhaps before the Amendment is withdrawn the right hon. Gentleman can tell us on what provision of the Bill he relies for the assertion that such a letting as this is included. I did not hear what the words were.

I hope there is no misunderstanding on this point. As I am advised, where anybody occupies a single room, let as part of a house, that is included in what is now the First Clause of the Bill. When we come to a lodger, as we understand the word—that is to say, somebody who takes a furnished lodging and pays for a variety of things, such as board, service, or attendance—I am advised that they are clearly not in the Bill, and, in my judgment, they ought not to be in the Bill. Then we have the other case raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy). There seems to be a doubt about that. Certainly between now and the Report stage I will undertake that this question shall be very carefully considered, and if there is any ambiguity in the language, and if it does not fulfil our intention, my right hon. and learned Friend and I will undertake to the best of our ability to remove it. It must be clearly understood that while we intend the Bill to apply to a tenant of one room or four rooms, as the case may be, we do not intend it to apply to the ordinary case of lodgers, and certainly not to such lodgers as those indicated by the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell), who go to the apartments for the purpose of spending a holiday at the seaside. The object of the Bill is to relieve certain classes who are occupying a certain specific class of house or tenement from the burden of increased rent. That is the principle to which we adhere, and if there is any doubt about the language of the Bill between now and Report we will see to it.

I desire to call attention to a very difficult case which will require a great deal of ingenuity to deal with. A large number of Admiralty workers were drafted into Greenock some time ago. A large number of those workers lodged in Gourock. Gourock is a place where, in nine months of the year, lodgings are easily obtained, and are let at a small rent, but for three months of the year lodgings in Gourock are let at a very high rate owing to the holiday season, and when it came to the holiday season all these lodgers were ejected in order to make room for the summer visitors. In that case, what would be the pre-war standard which would apply? A case of that kind should be within the view of the Government if they are going to make any provision for lodgers.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.

I beg to move, to leave out the words "including any" ["including any garden or other premises"], and to insert instead thereof the words "where such letting does not include any land other than the site of the dwelling-house and a "

The object of this Amendment is really only to make quite clear the meaning of the words in the Bill. As they run now, the words are, "including any garden or other premises within the curtilage thereof." The object of the Amendment is only to make it perefctly clear that it is not intended to include land of an agricultural or other character which is attached to the occupation but has nothing to do with the house.

Question "That the words 'including any ' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the words 'where such letting does not include any land other than the site of the dwelling-house and a,' be there inserted."

The right hon. Gentleman a moment ago referred to land of an agricultural character. It seems to me that if the word "land" is used in its most general sense, it might possibly exclude from the Bill a case where, for instance, a tenant had a part share in a yard or a little court or something of the sort. I wonder if he would be willing to put in after the word "land," "of an agricultural character," or some saving words like that?

I would rather not put those words in now. This has been very carefully considered. I am not a draftsman, and I might find myself unintentionally committing some legal enormity which I should be very sorry to do. Therefore, while I will consider what the hon. Member has suggested, I would rather leave the words as they are for the present.

Question put, and agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

Leave out the word "thereof" ["within the curtilage thereof"], and insert instead thereof the words "of the dwelling-house."

Leave out the words "and situate in an area to which this Act is for the time being applied by Order in Council."— [ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move to leave out the words "either the annual amount of the standard rent or the rateable value of the house or part of the house does not exceed," and to insert instead thereof the words "the standard rent does not exceed one pound per week."

I do not know that I ought to admit this Amendment. It seems rather to anticipate the question of value, which comes up later.

My object in this Amendment is to put into the form of rental value a rateable value of £30, and I want to try to convince the right hon. Gentleman that it would be a very much better system to limit by rental than by rateable value. A pound a week is equivalent to £30 rateable value in London, and that is the reason I put it down. There is no difference in value. The Clause as it stands now is, I think, unnecessarily complicated by the alternative, namely, that the limit must be in the case where the standard rent or the rateable value of the house does not exceed in London £30. There are, of course, a great number of cases in which the dwelling, or rather part of the dwelling, does not appear on the rate-book and has no rateable value. The draftsmen of the Bill have realised this, and have provided a machinery whereby, if it is necessary, a tenant can get an apportionment of the valuation, so that a person who occupies a fourth part of a house of the value of £40 can get it apportioned so as to take advantage of this Clause. It would be very much simpler, and it would be understood Very much better by the people who are concerned in this matter, if the rental value alone was taken. Everyone knows what the rental is, but people do not know what the rateable value is at all.

There is another reason. This alternative lays it down that the standard rent or the rateable value is not to exceed £30. A tenement or a house in London of which the rateable value is £30 is, as a rule, rented at about £l a week. On the other hand, a house which is rented at £30 is, of course, only 11s. 6d. a week, and therefore it would be essential for everyone of these occupants over 11s. 6d., in order to get the benefit of this Bill, to get the rateable value apportioned so as to show that he has a tenement which is entitled to relief. All that difficulty would be avoided if the right hon. Gentleman would accept the idea that it is to be a limit of rental, not complicated by the additional limit of rateable value. If he cannot accept it, I hope he will give us some reason for bringing in rateable value. I have studied the Clause very carefully and have not yet appreciated the reason for this alternative. If there is the necessity for it you must have it in, but if there is not we had better deal with the whole question on the basis of rent, for everyone knows what it is and there can be no dispute, and leave out this question of rateable value, which is not known in connection with the greater proportion of houses in London and elsewhere, and therefore necessitates very considerable investigation and apportionment in order that it may be ascertained.

This Amendment really opens the whole question. I do not know whether the Committee would be willing that we should on this Amendment discuss the question of the limitation of rental in London to £30 and in the country to £21. If it were possible to discuss the whole thing on this Amendment and come to an agreement, I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee. But, of course, it must be on that understanding, if I can arrive at one, that I am prepared to make my declaration. The House of Commons is not different from other human assemblies, and if the Government once commits itself to an advance they are rather apt, while thankful for past favours, to show their gratitude in the desire for further advances; and the Government may be driven into doing more than they want to do, so that if I make the suggestion I hope it will be on the understanding that that will be a suggestion for compromise and not really for a still further advance afterwards. My right hon. Friend has asked me why we include rateable value as an alternative. I myself was very much inclined to agree with him—I do not know whether I am inclined to disagree with him now—when I first approached the consideration of this question. I had in my mind mainly the poorer classes of tenant who occupy tenement houses or houses of the poorer description and who are quite familiar with their rent, which is an inclusive thing, but know nothing of their rateable value, which does not really concern them.

But we had to examine this question from a broader standpoint. We were anxious that this Bill should apply wherever what we regard as injustice is being committed, and at the same time we were anxious not to take a figure which would make the Bill applicable over very large areas where there is no justification for it and no need for it and where its application might be regarded as an injustice. Although I am not aware that I am yet, at all events, what is called a Socialist—I have spent most of my life in being called a high-and-dry old Tory— with all my Tory proclivities I have been unable to find in this Bill any of those terms which have been discovered in it by some of my critics. After all, the Bill only comes into existence for a limited period, for a definite purpose, and it will inflict no injury upon anybody who has not either raised his rent as compared with what it was before the War or is prepared to take advantage of his position as a house-owner to evict people for reasons which any honest and fair-minded man would regard as being wholly unsatisfactory and improper. An Amendment made yesterday safeguards any owner of property who is prepared to manage his property with due regard to the decency and comfort of those who are his tenants. Therefore I do not really see that any hardship will necessarily follow from the application of this Bill to a wider area than we first contemplated. Therefore in our selection we were anxious to take one which would be fairer and would make the Bill applicable to as wide an area as we could consistently apply it to.

8.0 P. M.

We adopted the alternative of rateable value for this reason. It is quite true that the rental, which is familiar to every tenant, would be simpler; but, on the other hand, taking the rental alone, unless you fix, as the right hon. Gentleman has done, a very generous sum you might exclude a great many houses throughout the country which ought to be included. The object of taking the rateable value is that if the tenant finds that the rental exceeds the limit in the Bill it is open to him to claim that the rateable value should be taken, and when the rateable value, which is the sum arrived at after deducting from the gross annual estimated rental the amount allowed in respect of outgoings, etc., is taken, you will bring in a very large number of houses which would otherwise be excluded. That was our object in adopting rateable value, so that there should be an alternative. The hardship which my right hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Dickinson) anticipates in regard to many people who desire to benefit by this Bill and who would not know about rateable value is not a really genuine one, because they have an alternative. If their rental brings them within the compass of the Bill, well and good, but if, on the other hand, the rental excludes them, they have only to ascertain what the rateable value is and they will find in nine cases out of ten that the rateable value will bring them within the Bill. This is a very difficult subject to follow, and I will give the Committee a statement which I think will show exactly how the case stands under the Bill as it is. The Bill applies where either the annual amount of the standard rent or the rateable value does not exceed

In order to arrive at rateable value from gross estimated rental, a deduction of one-fifth is permissible in the case of houses between £20 and £40. If we accept this scale, a rateable value of £30 would be equivalent to a gross estimated rental of £37 10s. If the rates are taken at 6s. 8d. in the £, which is a very moderate sum to fix as an average rate, a house of the rateable value of £30 might be let at a rental of £47 10s. where the landlord pays the rates. Therefore, it is obvious that the figures in the Bill are misleading, if you have no regard to rateable value and rental value. This would bring in houses which are actually let at a rental of £47 10s. I will now take a similar calculation in regard to houses of a rateable value of £21 in outside areas. The gross estimated rental of the house would be £26 5s. If the rates are of the same amount, 6s. 8d. in the £l, the house might be let at a rental of £33 5s. if the landlord pays the rates. On these figures the Bill, as it stands, would cover houses let at the following rents: In London, exclusive of rates, £37 10s., or 14s. 5d. a week; inclusive of rates, £47 10s., or 18s. 3d. a week. Outside London, exclusive of rates, £26 5s., or 10s. a week; inclusive of rates, £33 5s., or 12s. 9d. a week. I think this statement will show the Committee that the application of this measure, according to the figures printed in the Bill, will be much wider than would appear from a first study of the figures given in the Bill— namely, a rental or rateable value of £30 and £21 respectively.

There are on the Paper Amendments which propose that these sums should be raised. I hope I shall not be out of order if I make a passing reference to some of these Amendments, because in respect of London it is almost impossible to separate the two questions. In London there are really four Londons. There is the London which is known as the Administrative County of London, there is the Metropolitan Police area, there is the Metropolitan Postal area, and there is the Metropolitan Water Board area. Here are four different areas, and some of the Amendments on the Paper are closely connected with this question of rentals, because they suggest that, for the purpose of this Bill, we should not take the ordinary area, that of the Administrative County of London, but that we should adopt a wider area, so that, so far as London and its immediate environs are concerned, the inequalities which are found to be existing under the Bill should be remedied. If it were possible, I should like to discuss these two questions together, because they are very closely related. The difficulties which arise as between London and the immediate outskirts would disappear if we take one of the wider distinctions, the London postal area, or the London police area. The difficulties which exist in the rest of the country, and which interests hon. Friends on both sides of the House, as is clearly indicated by the suggestions I have received from hon. Members, would obviously be altered if we were to raise the figures slightly in that case and also in the London area.

I have no particular affection for the figures given in the Bill, nor am I able to show by clear proof that there is justification for those figures, and that those figures ought not to be departed from. But what I am bound to ask the Committee to do is what I have asked them to do before, and that is not to depart from what we regard as one of the basic principles of this Bill, namely, that there shall be a clear, definite limitation, and that that limitation shall be a just and reasonable one, so as to make the Bill, so far as we can, if it becomes an Act of Parliament, apply to those parts of the country which we have had under consideration from the time when this question was first raised. I should be quite willing, if we could arrive at a compromise, to see these figures raised, and I would suggest that for London the maximum should be £35 and for the rest of the country the maximum should be £26. The figures I have given to the Committee are based upon the lower sums and not upon the higher. If these figures have got to be increased, on the whole, even after the persuasive eloquence of the hon. and learned Member for St. Pancras, I am still inclined to think that it would be better to include rateable value as an alternative. I hope, however, that I shall not be accused of vacillation, or inability to make up my mind, if I say I am quite prepared, on behalf of the Government, to leave this question very largely to the Committee, provided we are agreed that there is to be a clear limitation, and provided it is understood that on no consideration can the Government go beyond the figures of £35 and £26, which I have suggested as a compromise. We are willing to consider the question in regard to the area of London, if it is made, so as to remove any of those injustices that have been brought to our notice as to the possible consequences of the passing of this Bill. I hope I have made myself clear on this matter, which is rather difficult and complex. I shall be glad to answer any question, and if there is any point that is still obscure I should be very glad to clear it up.

Before the Committee proceeds with the discussion, I think it is my duty to say two things. In the first place, it appears to me quite necessary that these questions should be considered together, as the right hon. Gentleman has suggested. They appear to be part of one question, and an arrangement can be arrived at better by taking them together than by dividing them. The other point is that I feel I must warn the Committee that in any alterations they make, if they went beyond what might be legitimately called small dwelling houses, they might put the Bill in some jeopardy in regard to its further stages.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the statement which he has made. Having regard to the inclusion of the words "rateable value," I am perfectly content, so far as the large areas of the County of Middlesex are concerned, to accept the figures as being a just method of inclusion and exclusion in regard to houses in this Bill. It is perfectly obvious, from the figures which the right hon. Gentleman has given, that where we add the figures of £5 in regard to the London areas, and £5 to the country figures, we get such a rateable value as will bring within the Act the very houses that many of us, certainly myself, have been striving to get into the Bill. Therefore, I thank the right hon. Gentleman so far as my own interests are concerned for the concession he has made, though my Amendment asks for a bigger figure. I do not think it necessary to have any larger figure. On the question of area I have a great deal to say. The Administrative County of London has been put forward in this Bill as being an area in which the higher figure is to prevail. I need not remind the Committee of the artificial boundaries of the County of London area. It was the creature of an Act, passed in 1888, which carved the County of Middlesex into no less than what are known as eighteen borough council areas. It took over, I think, three from Kent and seven from Surrey. At present the administrative county consists of twenty-eight Metropolitan boroughs.

The condition of things has altered since 1888. The right hon. Gentleman's own constituency—the Strand—has altered materially since then. One remembers that the making of Aldwych and Kings-way has swept away an enormous area, where poor people lived, Clare Market, and the populous districts thereabouts. Warehouses and large and expensive offices and shops have replaced the old houses. That process has been going on to a lesser degree throughout all the inner Metropolitan borough areas. Of course, in districts like Shoreditch and Bethnal Green, residents have been very largely displaced, and warehouses have been erected in place of the old houses. When you regard, as you cannot help regarding, if you travel around London, the facilities which are given now for people to sleep in outside districts, then you can realise how great has been the change. It is not fair to regard the artificial County of London as being the unit for the higher figure, and to exclude all outside districts which immediately adjoin it. I ask all those Members of the Committee who are, or have been members of the London County Council, who are Metropolitan members, and know something of this great City of ours and its immediate surroundings, where is the reason for including the property on one side of Finsbury Park, which is now incorporated in the County of London—it was not originally—and made part of the Borough of Islington or Stoke New- ington, while immediately across the road you have the Borough of Hornsey, which is excluded? I can take instances of that all the way through. You have in the West the Borough of Hammersmith on one side of the road, and on the other side you have the urban district of Chiswick, which is part of my own district.

You will find, as I said on the Second Reading, if you follow up the great roads which radiate from London, numerous instances of where the boundaries of the two counties of London and Middlesex run up the middle of the road, and on one side you have the increased figure, while the other side is compelled to take the reduced figure. This point is all the more important now because we have swept away the Clause, which would have given the same privilege to districts of 100,000 inhabitants, as some of these are, as that which is given in the immediately adjoining borough. But there can be no justification for saying that there shall be this artificial line which was created in 1888. I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman and the Parliamentary Secretary (Mr. Hayes Fisher) will agree that, since that time, London has changed. The immediate suburbs have become the dormitories of the working population of this city. Go to Liverpool Street Station any morning between four and half-past four o'clock, and stand on the bridge which runs across the station, analyse the contents of the trains which come in every two or three minutes from the suburbs—they go all night long on the Walthamstow section— and you will see directly what an enormous number of people sleep out of London and have created the populous neighbourhoods to which this Bill ought to apply to the very greatest extent.

Yes. The right hon. Gentleman, as I understand, will leave this to the Committee, and I should certainly like to see the police area, which has a radius of twelve miles. If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to accept that I have nothing more to say. I do urge very strongly that the police area should be accepted, or that failing, that we should have the postal district. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!" and "Police area."] At any rate there ought to be a very large extension of the county of London. I shall be quite content if the Committee decide to have the police area, which I think will really cover everything that is required.

I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to accept the Metropolitan Police district. If that is so it will obviate the necessity, which I should otherwise be under, of moving to have a larger area taken in.

As the right hon. Gentleman accepts the suggestion, that is all that I desire.

Not having the extensive or peculiar knowledge of London possessed by the hon. Member for Ealing, I join the hon. Member in asking to have this Bill made operative over as large an area as possible around London. We all know that London is spreading out, and, as the hon. Member has pointed out, there are vast numbers of working men who sleep out eight, nine, and ten miles, and come in every morning. Therefore I join in pressing on the Government that they should include as large an area as possible. I believe that the police area would be acceptable. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Water Board area."] If the Water Board area is larger, I should like to substitute-it in any definition of the Metropolitan area. Let us enlarge the area, so as to include the dormitories mentioned by the hon. and learned Gentleman. I have been in London a good many years, and, unfortunately, I have had to join that crowd, which my hon. Friend mentioned, early in the morning, at the very station which he mentioned. I rather think that if we had the police area, which extends twelve miles from Charing Cross, it would include Walthamstow, and all such places as Hammersmith and Ealing, and all the populous districts along the Edgware Road, and I think it would include everything on the south side of the river, where there is any large population, because it so happens that on that side you do get very soon outside the populous districts.

I am talking of the south of the river. Of course, there are big centres a long way east, but I would not describe them as the south part of London at all. I wish to identify myself with the request made to have the largest possible area. I am rather out of place in saying anything about London at all, seeing that there are so many London Members present.

I now come to the money question. This Bill has been demanded by manual workers, and, so far as I know, the class of people who would be covered by £l per week in London have not asked for any such measure as this, but I have every sympathy with them. I know that many of the people who pay £l per week have sent sons to the front, and they are now in a worse position than they were before their sons left for the War. Therefore they come within the scope of a Bill such as this, and if it should give relief to that class of people I should be the last to stand in the way. I have regard to what was said by the Chairman of Committee, that any Amendment of this Bill must have in view its title and the purpose for which it is intended. For my part, I am not going to run any risk. I know the class of house covered by £35 yearly rental, and I put my argument on the basis of rental.

The houses of £35 a year rent are found in suburbs four miles from Charing Cross, and they are the sort of districts where most of these people live. It covers all the working people—that is to say, all the manual workers who have made any request for a Bill of this character. I make that statement without any hesitation at all. Above the £35 limit you get the sort of people with whom I have every sympathy, bus they have not demanded this Bill. The £35 limit covers practically the people paying £l a week, according to the rates of the district in which they live. In the district in which I live the rates are 8s. 4d. in the £l, and in certain districts in the East End I am told that they are 11s. and 12s. in the £l. A £35 rental with the rates would mean £l a week, or anything between 18s. and £l a week. That covers all the people that I have in my mind, at all events, when asking for this Bill, and therefore, while I cannot pretend to speak for London, yet as an individual Member of this House I consider £35 a year fairly covers the case. In regard to Scotland I can speak with somewhat more assurance. I asked a question of the Secretary for Scotland the other day with regard to this matter, and I find that £21 a year rental there covers 198,400 odd houses in Glasgow alone, and, if my memory serves me aright, the total number of houses in Glasgow is 222,000 or 223,000, so that even at £21 rental you cover a very large proportion of the working-class dwellings in Glasgow. Outside that city it covers practically the whole of the working population of Scotland. I think it is right to be quite frank in this matter and not to mislead one another, and, so far as the figure £21 is concerned, I consider it is fairly good. If any extension were wanted at all it would be in Glasgow, and I can only say that the £26 is more than I expected. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for having given us this concession, and for the extremely conciliatory manner in which he has handled the Bill. So far as I and my Friends are concerned, we are satisfied with what has been done, always subject to this, that, for myself, I cannot pretend to speak for London.

I also wish to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the concession he has made in raising the figure of the rent, but I desire to point out to him that fact, that the concession does not apply to Scotland, and I have an Amendment on the Paper in regard to the question. In Glasgow there is a population of 1,100,000, and the rents in that city nowadays are practically on a par with those in London, and, as I have remarked, the concession which has been made does not apply to Scotland in the same way. The system which is adopted with reference to England gives the alternative of the rent or the rateable value In Scotland we have not that alternative, there being no difference between rental and rateable value. That being so, Scotland is put at a disadvantage, and I am dissatisfied with the figure given to Scotland, namely, £26. I suggest that a higher figure should be given for Scotland, so that it should be put on an exact equality with London. If the right hon. Gentleman can see his way to raising the £26 to £30 or £33, Scotland then would be put on an equality with England, so far as this measure is concerned. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to put Scotland right on this point, so as to place it on an equal basis with this country.

I do not think anybody in this House differs from the view expressed by the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division as to the exceedingly conciliatory and kindly manner in which the President of the Local Government Board has conducted this Bill during the Committee proceedings. If I, for my part, press him to go a little further than he has indicated his willingness to go, he will not, I hope, take it in any way amiss. While I have no doubt as to the limit now proposed covering, in the great majority of cases, all working-class dwellings, I confess I see no particular reason why the benefit of this Bill should not be extended even a little further. The Chairman warned us to be careful how we raised the limit, lest we found ourselves outside the scope and title of the Bill. I am not myself aware of the definition of what is a small dwelling, nor do I know that the Amendment under consideration would have the effect against which the Chairman warned us, but I should very much like to see a larger figure, not only for London, but for the whole of the country. So far as other parts of the country are concerned, I have an Amendment suggesting that the limit should be £40 a year.

There are a great many people, not actually manual labourers, who are worthy of some attention and consideration from this House. There is the large class of clerks, small shopkeepers, small professional men, and so on, who are perhaps worse off at this time and more heavily hit by the War than any other class of the community. Certainly they get no war bonuses; they get no increase of wages, and many of them enjoy that peculiar form of income which is called fixed. That may be a true description so far as the upward direction of limit is concerned, but no one has yet discovered to what limit the falls in the downward direction may go. If you take the case of people with numerous children, I submit that they are as worthy of attention as any other class of the community. I mention children for this reason, and I think it is a point which most certainly ought to be borne in mind. People with small incomes and large families are precisely the people of all others who find it at all times, and especially at a time like this, most difficult to find house accommodation at anything like a reasonable rent. We know in the case of the working classes how complaints come in when they are about to be evicted that they have sought all over their immediate neighbourhood without any hope whatever of finding accommodation, because wherever they go they are told, "We cannot have you because you have got too many children." The result is that people with several children are compelled to take houses which are proportionately rented much more highly than their incomes really should afford. If you deny them the benefit of this Bill under the impression that they are well-to-do people who do not need it you are, in fact, doing a very great injustice, because they are, in many cases, precisely the people who need it most. I do not want either to delay the Committee or press the right hon. Gentleman unduly in this matter, but I do suggest that either now or at a later stage the Government might very well consider whether it would not be possible to raise the limits of the rental a little further than they have done. I think I am right in saying that in the Courts Emergency Act rents up to £50 are given special consideration, and I do not believe any injustice would be done, or that this Bill would be rendered inconsistent with its title, if the limit for the whole country were raised to £50. I do not intend to move my Amendment after this discussion, but I do suggest an extension of the limit.

I rise to reply to the speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for the College Division of Glasgow (Mr. Watt). The point which he put before the House is substantially correct. Of course, a good deal turns on the definition of the Bill, but he is quite correct in pointing out the great difference between the cases of Scotland and England in the relation of rateable value to actual rental, I think it is a point which we ought to take into consideration. The rateable value as it appears on the Valuation Roll in Scotland is not subject to the same deductions as in England, and, therefore, if you fix the same rateable value for Scotland and England you will, in the case of Scotland, only include houses of a lower actual rental than you would in the case of England. That is a justification for differentiating between the two cases. My hon. Friend the Member for the Blackfriars Division (Mr. Barnes) pointed out how large a proportion of houses in the Glasgow area would be covered by the rent which appears in the Bill, and certainly by the rent which has been since suggested of £26 per year; but there is a tendency in a place like Glasgow and in other smaller towns which are now filled with munition workers and men employed in shipbuilding yards for the rent to approximate more and more to the rents which obtain in the Metropolis. I think we have got to take into account that the difference between the rents in Glasgow and the rents in the Metropolis is not so great as has been represented or as is supposed. I think it would be fair to make a difference between Scotland and the other parts of England, and that we should obtain substantial equality if we made the rent limit in Scotland £30, in London £35, and in the other parts of the country £26. I think that is as near an approximation of equality as we could get.

Like all other Members, I am pleased with the speech we had from the President of the Local Government Board. We are all desirous of aiding him as far as possible in passing a measure which will meet the difficulty with which it is sought to deal. The concessions that he has made are pleasing to us. Whether they go far enough is another question. I think without going outside the definition of the Bill they might be extended. I am pleased also that the right hon. Gentleman has promised to take an area in London larger than the administrative area of the London County Council, which has been so well described by the hon. and learned Member opposite (Mr. Nield). When you have taken the London Police area, which is, I think, not 12 but 15 miles from Charing Cross, you have not taken yourself outside the big industrial areas where the rents, I venture to say, are equal or nearly equal to those mentioned by the hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes) in the 4-mile radius of London. You simply, in many cases, pass right through the centre of a big industrial area, where the rents are identically the same. While we are pleased if you give us the Metropolitan area, and at having so much more within the scope of the Bill, we think, "while the Bill is being passed, it might be made more perfect by taking in all those large industrial areas. Personally, I cannot see the reason for making a differentiation between areas with regard to this question. You have now had to make first one, and then a second, and now a third differentiation with regard to the rental in various places. You have a special rateable qualification for London, and since the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division of Glasgow (Mr. Watt), we have had the speech of the Secretary for Scotland altering the terms as laid down by the President of the Local Government Board. Then for other areas outside London you say you want £26 rateable qualification.

I venture to say, going all round, not only London but any of the big centres, the exigencies of industrial life to-day are such that the big population that wants to be dealt with by this Bill is more outside the London area than inside the London area. The centre of London, being covered with large warehouses, main arteries, big railway stations, and so forth, has rather decreased in population; while going farther and farther outside that area—not merely four miles or ten, because workmen's trains go further than that—you have the big industrial populations with which we want to deal. I would seriously ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider this point between now and the Report stage. A large number of the cases which have been quoted are outside the London police area. We do not want to jeopardise the Bill, but we desire that when placed on the Statute Book it should deal with the whole of the persons involved. I plead that we should have extended to us a similar concession to that granted in the case of Scotland. There is not a great difference between the outside areas in Scotland and the outside areas around London. I plead that if you have an area at all, some area should be settled that will bring within the scope of the Bill the whole of the huge industrial populations outside the London police area and outside any definite area of a similar description.

As far as I can see, the rental limit is going to leave the Bill useless for one part of the United Kingdom. In the city of Dublin you cannot get a four-roomed cottage under £30. Dublin is the most heavily-rated city after London in the United Kingdom, and the people mostly affected will be those who are paying anything from £30 to £40 a year rent. Together with one of my colleagues I have an Amendment on the Paper suggesting that the limit should be extended to £40, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman seriously to consider such an extension. In Dublin, where trade is very bad at present, there are a number of small shopkeepers paying £40 a year for their houses, and there is nothing in the Bill to prevent the landlords from raising those rents. If the Bill is to do the good intended, I think the limit should be extended to £40.

I rise to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the way in which he has met us up to the present. Personally, I should have liked to have seen a rental value of £40 for London, but the way in which the right hon. Gentleman has met us to-night leads me to the conclusion that we have a good deal to be thankful for up to this moment. As one who has taken considerable interest in this matter from its inception, I want to see the area extended to its fullest limit. If the area of the Metropolitan Water Board is the largest, I think that that area should be taken. If the Metropolitan Police area is the largest, I think the right hon. Gentleman should take that. I am glad that so far the rental value has been increased, because that will take in numbers of people in the outside areas of London who otherwise would have been shut out. It will include Tottenham, Edmonton, Ponders End, and Enfield, and, on the south side, many areas and many middle-class people who would have been outside the Bill if this concession had not been made. As I want to see the Bill placed on the Statute Book at the earliest possible moment, I will not detain the Committee by saying more than "Thank you."

The particular Amendment we are discussing is a very simple one, and would bring within the purview of this Bill all houses rented at not more than £l a week. I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for enabling all the aspects of this matter to be discussed together, and I hope I shall not be considered ungrateful if I point out that, especially in view of what the Secretary for Scotland has stated, it would be very much better if some simple amount were fixed and the whole question of areas got rid of altogether. The right hon. Member for St. Pancras suggested a limit of £l per week. I bear in mind the Chairman's warning that we should take care not to fix such a limit as would take the houses outside the scope of the title of the Bill, which has to do with small dwelling-houses. What is a small dwelling-house? It is a purely relative term. The Secretary for Scotland has now included in the Bill a house at £30 rental if it is anywhere in Scotland. It is not only the size which goes to make up the cost of a house. A small house may be much more highly rented—and properly so—than a house with a much larger number of rooms in another area. The rent does not necessarily settle the size of a house. I wish the right hon. Gentleman had seen his way to accept some such proposal as my right hon. Friend's £l per week. It is a simple term. It is a matter that you can explain to anybody in the street: "If you were not paying more than £l a week in rent before the War, the landlord cannot raise your rent now." The hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division said that the people who live in houses between £35 a year and £l a week rent had not asked for this Bill. I hope that that is not a reason for denying to them that which we might feel they are entitled to have. How many cases are there of men not necessarily manual workers living in houses in London and its suburbs paying roughly £1 a week rent? They have gone to the War; they have made the same personal sacrifices as the manual worker receiving about the same income, but they have also made a greater pecuniary sacrifice. Very often their incomes have stopped, they are landed with these houses on their hands, and their families are now there. Will anybody say that if it is right to protect a munition worker living in a house at 15s. or 17s. 6d. a week it is not right to protect the wife of a clerk who has gone to the front and who happens to be paying £l a week rent? You cannot logically say that you will defend one class and not the other. I am quite sure that if the Government would say that it should be £l a week rent every-where—of course, it is an arbitrary figure —it would be to the point. It is, however, much less anomalous, as I shall show in a moment, than the figures which the right hon. Gentleman now suggests. We have now got in the Bill that in London a £35 rent, or rateable value, is applicable. There is a dispute as to what London means. The right hon. Gentleman has been good enough to indicate that he would be prepared to accept the Metropolitan Police area. I am certain that this is a great improvement on the area in the Bill—in fact, with all respect, the area in the Bill was an impossible area and could not have worked. Now we have got Scotland coming along. It is here that the great effect of this comes in. Scotland, it is said, says, "We do not like your new £26 limit: we are not in the Administrative County of London." What example do they give in support of their contention— Glasgow, the Metropolis of Scotland? They come here with figures of Glasgow rents and say they want the higher figure of £30. They say, "Scotland ought to have special treatment. Any house in Scotland of £30 should be within the Bill." I want to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that that is what the Secretary for Scotland told us when the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) was absent.

Yes, in my absence, but am I not right in saying that what my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland said—and he is now here, and I will say in his presence what I understood him to say—in Scotland the difference in rateable value and gross annual value does not exist? Therefore, while we give two alternatives to England, it leaves it a matter of only one arrangement in Scotland, and so leaves Scotland at a disadvantage. In order, therefore, to have a general figure to cover the gross annual value and the rateable value, my right hon. Friend has taken an initial sum, but that is not an advantage for Scotland.

I am not quite sure that I appreciate it quite as I ought to do, but, as the Bill will stand, what the right hon. Gentleman has done is to say that the rent in Scotland shall be £30. The rent anywhere outside Scotland is £26. The suggestion is that in Scotland the difference between rateable value and rent is not what it is in England. Can it be denied that, as the Bill will stand, Scotland, as a whole, is getting preferential treatment?

HON. MEMBERS: No!

Scotland is not getting any preferential treatment at all. There is a double standard in the Bill, a standard of rent and a, standard of rateable value. You can apply whichever is lowest, the rent standard or the lower rateable value. Thirty pounds and considerably lower means £30 in England. In Scotland it does not. Scotland is not getting preferential treatment, but only fair play.

If the right hon. Gentleman had accepted the suggestion of the hon. Member for St. Pancras he would have got rid of all these difficulties. I do want the right hon. Gentleman, even if he cannot do that, to see if he cannot leave out paragraph ( b ). He has had an appeal made to him from Scot- land. When the country sees what has been done in connection with it, Cardiff and other large areas will come. I cannot really see what harm can possibly arise if the right hon. Gentleman in his Bill simply said that in the case of houses of £35 a year that that should be the standard rent or the rateable value, and let that stand for the whole of the country. All it would mean would be that it might let a few houses in between £26 and £35. But I suggest that those houses, in the main, would be in the occupation of tenants who really are deserving of this consideration. In their interests, in the interests of simplicity, and to get rid of these areas, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will in some way see his way to meet us. I suggest that a useful way would be to leave out paragraph ( b ).

I rise not to make a speech, but to get one point cleared up. This Clause refers to what is called a part-house let as a separate dwelling. In many parts of London large houses are now taken by a single tenant, who is himself a resident, and sub-let by him to others. Where the house is let by a landlord, who is non-resident, I understand each part of the house is separately treated for the purpose of this Bill. Is it so treated where the landlord is resident and himself is the tenant of the whole house? He himself is rated for the whole house, but he simply sub-lets to tenants who live in the house with him. Unless that is so, many houses which are filled with working people will not come under the benefit of this Act, whereas, if it is so, of course it will be covered.

This Debate has been carried on entirely either by Scottish Members or Members near to the Metropolitan area. I am speaking for a rural area and I must say that we are thankful to the right hon. Gentleman for extending the Bill to our districts, and also for his proposal to increase the rent from £21 to £26. That to a very great extent meets what is required in these areas. Can he see his way to do the same as he has promised to do for Scotland? I am not quite sure, but I rather think that in some areas in England, outside the Metropolitan area, in regard to rateable value and rent, the conditions are about the same. I know something about London, although not at the present time representing London. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to extend the area in London, at any rate so far as the police area. The police area would be a more convenient and fairer area than any other definition we can give. It would bring in every parish inside 15 miles from Charing Cross, and nearly all of the industrial areas around London. The Administrative County of London is not sufficient to meet the demand. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman has put the figure up to £35 in the London area as the rateable value. It does make a considerable difference between that and the actual rent at which houses are let. On the whole, I think, unless we can get more, we ought to be thankful for what has been promised.

The President of the Local Government Board has been absent for a short time, and certainly I do not blame him, because I never saw a Minister in charge of a measure like this, or any other measure, more attentive, or more conciliatory than the right hon. Gentleman; but, in his absence, there were two speeches made by colleagues of mine, one of them representing the City of Dublin. The chief point was that the limits at present proposed in the Bill, and also the new limit of £26, will not protect, probably, the greater part of the smaller class of householders and shopkeepers, who, if they are not all concerned in the production of munitions, have in a, great many instances contributed to the fighting material at the front, and are in some stress for various reasons. Now, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman's attention to this one consideration? He knows Ireland very well; he was there as Chief Secretary, and not the worst of the Chief Secretaries, and I think he will admit that he has gone on a wrong assumption in the proposals he has made in the Bill. The assumption is that rents in Ireland, especially in Dublin and the neighbourhood of big towns, are lower than they are in places like London or the big towns in England. As a matter of fact, I believe—and I hope his own experience will bear me out—that the exact reverse is the case, and that for a very clear and obvious reason. During the last couple of Sessions, and even this Session, a good deal has been said about housing in Dublin, and the fact emerging from all that talk is that there is a dreadful want in Dublin, a more terrible want of proper housing accommodation, especially for the working classes, than there is in any other city in the United Kingdom.

Of course, if that be so, and it is so, the natural result is that competition forces up the price of the ordinary house, and I venture to make this statement—I can produce proof of it, and I have been an inhabitant of Dublin for forty years—that the rent of every class of house in Dublin, except the largest houses, is higher than the rent of the corresponding houses in England. If that be so—and I doubt very much if the experience of the right hon. Gentleman will lead him to contradict me—there ought to be no distinction or difference—I will not say between the rest of the country and London, but between the rest of the country and Ireland. A total cessation of building houses for the working classes has already brought about an increase of rent in Dublin, and, if this Bill does not stop the process, will further increase the rentals in that city and neighbourhood. Under these circumstances, I would invite the right hon. Gentleman, if he is not prepared to give an answer now, to act in the conciliatory manner in which he has acted throughout, and to reconsider this question, which has, I think, been forgotten by the Government when they adopted the figures that are now put in.

I heard something just now about preferential treatment for Scotland, and I am bound to say that, if the Scottish Members do not watch that carefully, they will find that a means of plundering Scotland in some way or other. It has been found generally that the economy practised in Scotland compared with that in England is used to damage Scotland. However, that is only by the way, and I quite agree with some of the remarks made here as to the courtesy displayed by the President of the Local Government Board, and the very able manner in which the right hon. Gentleman has conducted this Bill, and I personally desire to thank him for that. But what I have risen for is to get a little explanation with regard to these valuations. There is mentioned in the Bill at present a standard valuation and a rateable valuation. One is very different from the other. Who is to settle which valuation you are going to use? The tenant might say, "The rateable value is most advantageous to me, and I will use that." The landlord might say, "The standard valuation is most advantageous to me, and I will use that," and who is to settle which he is to have? In the interpretation and application Clause it states, "The expression 'standard rent' means the rent at which the dwelling-house was let on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen." If that is to be the standard rent everybody will be able to understand it fairly, but if it is the rateable value it will not be so clear to a tenant as to which valuation should be taken.

I trust the right hon. Gentleman will adopt the standard rental value and leave the rateable value out of this particular Clause, because I am certain that if either of these valuations is better for either party one way or the other, I cannot see who is going to settle which valuation they are to take. Upon the whole, there is no doubt in my mind that the easier method upon which to make your calculations would be the rental value, because the tenant would know what rent he pays and the landlord would know what rent he receives when he gets it, for he does not always get it, but when he gets it he knows how much he has got. This is a matter which wants settling, and I think the President of the Local Government Board made a very courteous offer when he said he practically left it open to the Committee to state which way they thought fit. I think we have now the opinion of all those concerned generally, and we might come to some conclusion.

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Sutherland (Mr. Morton) for what he has said about myself. May I say that I remember my hon. Friend when he did not think so much of Scotland and a great deal more of London.

I did not think in the arrangement that has been come to that there has anything been done which gives to Scotland any advantage over the rest of the United Kingdom. There has been an attempt, not wholly although practically successful, to make the new arrangement equal as between the different parts of the United Kingdom, where the system of rating is different altogether. In England and Wales and in Ireland the proposal in the Bill is to give an alternative choice between the rental and the rateable value. Everybody knows what the rent is, but they do not all know their rateable value. But if they know their rent and prefer it they can take that.

The person who desires to get the benefit. This is a case where the individual claims the benefit of the Act, and it rests with those individuals to decide upon which basis they will claim. They are entitled to claim on their rent. They know that and they may decide to go upon it. If they find in other cases that their rental does not bring them within the four corners of the Act there is the rateable value as an alternative, and they may elect to take that. I really do not think the objections which have been raised have been serious, or that the Committee is prepared to adopt the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson). I hope the Committee will accept the alternative system. I understand now that the Committee is willing to accept the suggestions which I indicated on behalf of the Government, and that hon. Members are willing to agree to what I have suggested as likely to lead to a compromise. My suggestions amount to this, that the rateable value as mentioned in the Bill shall stand now at £35 for London, £30 for Scotland, where there is no alternative of the difference between gross annual value and assessable value, and £26 for the rest of the country. As to the area, there are four from which we have to choose. The area taken in the Bill is the administrative County of London, which is the area generally selected in these cases. I am not going to trouble the Committee with the reasons which led to us selecting this area in the first instance. I confess, speaking for myself, and I take full blame for it, that I did not realise how completely London, as we know it, has outgrown the area arranged in 1888, more especially in the north and west. I think on the whole the sense of the Committee, and what the Government are prepared to agree to, is that the area for London should be the Metropolitan Police area. That is a very wide and well-known area which includes a great many munition areas and centres, and I am not aware that any injustice or difficulty is likely to arise on account of that extension. The compromise is the difference in the rent to which I have referred, and the extension of the area from the administrative County of London to the London Police area. I hope there is no misunderstanding about that, and that hon. Members are prepared to accept that as a compromise on which we are all agreed.

With regard to the case of Ireland, the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Clancy) appealed to me as to whether full consideration had been given to the Irish case. I entirely concur that there is no part of the United Kingdom where the housing conditions arouse more sympathy on the part of those who have studied these problems for many years than Ireland. I know there is no place where the difficulty of housing accommodation is more acute at this moment than it is in Dublin, but does the hon. Member realise what would be the effect of this Bill in Ireland? He says we are not going far enough and that we ought to make the London figures go further. I do not think it can be shown that there is any part of the United Kingdom, including Dublin, where from the point of view of rental and accommodation the conditions are similar to those in the London area. What the reason for this is I do not pretend to say, because at first sight you would expect to find in large cities like Dublin, Glasgow, Manchester and London the same conditions prevailing. It is nevertheless true that in the London area rents are higher and the conditions are harder than in any other part of the United Kingdom. Those are the conclusions to which I have been forced by the figures which have been brought to my notice. Under these circumstances I ask the hon. Member for Dublin whether we are not going very far to meet him. I have given earlier in the evening the figures based upon the rentals in the Bill. I have now the figures based upon the rentals of £35 and £26. I will not trouble the Committee with the result of the £35 rental, because that I take to be agreed. But, outside London, including the city of Dublin, what does it mean? It means that, exclusive of rates, every house of which the rental is £32 10s. a year, or 12s. 6d. a week, will be included within the operation of this Bill, and where the rates are included the rental may be as high as £41, or 15s. 9d. per week. I cannot help thinking that in every legitimate case where this Bill will operate, whether in Dublin or Glasgow, or anywhere else, these figures will include every tenant whose case has been mentioned. I do not pretend that we have met every case, but I think we have made the Bill go as far as we can justly make it go, having regard to the grounds upon which we asked Parliament for leave to introduce this measure.

Will the right hon. Gentleman deal with the case I mentioned of a house taken by one tenant and where it is sub-let?

That is a difficult question to which the Solicitor-General and myself have promised to give our attention. If the real object of the Bill is carried out I think it will include that case, but we do not want to so alter the measure as to make it operative in those cases where nobody desires that it should be applied. It has been suggested that this Bill has been conceived and passed and amended only in the interests of one class of the community, and more than one speaker has said you are not thinking of the clerks and others who suffer by the War as acutely as anyone else. This Bill is not intended to meet all cases of hardship, but I hope that by the rentals we are taking we are including an enormous number of houses of the description mentioned, and I think, that all those who work with their hands will be found to be benefited. I think the Bill will now cover a very wide area, and I am glad that the concessions which the Government have made have been so generously and cordially received by the Committee. I hope on this understanding we may now regard the area and rental as settled, and I trust we will now regard these outstanding and difficult questions as decided with the common agreement of the whole Committee.

Is the tenant to have the option, against the landlord possibly, of selecting which valuation shall be taken?

Yes, obviously. Supposing the rent has been raised, the landlord will wait for somebody to claim. That somebody is the tenant, and the tenant is entitled to claim either "My rent is so much," or "My rateable value is so much."

One of these valuations may bring him outside the scope of the Bill, and the other inside.

Does a house assessed at £40 a year, including the taxes, come under the Bill?

It depends entirely upon the rates and taxes. The rental in some cases would amount to £41 3s. It depends entirely upon the rates and taxes, which, of course, depend on each locality.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Amendment which really meets the wish of the Committee and the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill is that standing in the name of the hon. Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield)—to leave out the words "Administrative County of London," and to insert instead thereof the words "Metropolitan Police district, including therein the City of London"— rather than that of the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Kellaway)—to leave out the words "Administrative County of London," and to insert instead thereof the words "Metropolitan Police district and City of London Police district."

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), paragraph ( a ), to leave out the words "Administrative County of London," and to insert instead thereof the words "Metropolitan Police district, including therein the City of London."

I beg to move, at the end of the proposed Amendment, to add the words "together with the urban districts of Dartford and Watford, the Petty Sessional district of Romford, and the parishes of Downe, Stone, Sutton-at-Hove, Swanscombe, and Wilmington."

The President of the Local Government Board has told us that he would take the largest possible area round London. This alteration is not a very wide one, but it would make it more complete. It is a well defined area brought into existence and chosen by the Board of Control as embracing the industrial portions of outer London.

I quite sympathise with my hon. Friend in the difficulty in which he finds himself by reason of the fact that certain districts in which he is interested are left out, but I must really appeal to the Committee. The Metropolitan Police area is a very well-known area. I do not know anything of the particular area to which he has referred or what it signifies, and I am afraid I must ask the Committee to adhere to the Metropolitan Police area, which is a very wide extension on the area originally placed in the Bill.

There is some substance in the Amendment of the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Rowlands), because this is the area which the Board of Control have decided is the kind of area which should be dealt with in this matter. There is therefore a real reason why the area should be taken.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.

Words proposed there inserted.

Further Amendments made: In Sub-section (2), paragraph ( a ), leave out the word "thirty," and insert instead thereof the word "thirty-five."

Leave out the word "and," and insert instead thereof the words "( b ) in the case of a house situated in Scotland £30; and."

In Sub-section (2), paragraph ( b ), leave out the word "twenty-one," and insert instead thereof the word "twenty-six."—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert the words, "Provided that this Act shall not apply to a dwelling-house let at a rent which is less than two-thirds of the rateable value thereof."

The object of this Amendment is to exempt houses let at a ground rent or at a very low rent. Obviously, it would be quite unfair where a house is let on lease at the rental value of the land only that the tenant, when the lease falls in, should continue to hold the house at the rental value of the land alone. It would be very unfair, and it is not intended.

I do not oppose the Amendment, but I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that there may be cases where it is impossible to ascertain what the valuation is. That is a common thing in Ireland. I am anxious to provide it shall not be possible for a landlord to come in and say: "There is no valuation, and the rent is so much." There certainly ought to be some provision for cases of that kind.

That is a point which shall be considered and provision shall be inserted before the Report to cover it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Subsection (3), leave out the word "standard" ["apportion the standard"]. After the word "value" ["value of the property"] insert, "at the date in relation to which the standard rent is to be fixed."

In Sub-section (4), leave out the words: "of real property" ["mortgage of real property"]. After the word "applies ["to which this Act applies"] insert the words, "or any interest therein."

I beg to move, in Sub-section (4), to leave out the words, "except that it shall not apply to an equitable mortgage or charge by deposit of title deeds or otherwise." This Amendment would meet a very hard case, and it is very desirable to make it in view of the fact that at the present time the building trade is in a very awkward position.

I cannot accept this Amendment for reasons which I have given on previous occasions. There is a broad distinction to be drawn between those mortgages which are made by advances on the deposit of deeds and those which are made on the clear understanding that the rate of interest varies from time to time. It would not be just to bring such cases in. It would affect the whole business situation, and it might cause more injury than would be removed by the passing of the Bill. Under these circumstances I hope my hon. Friend will not think it necessary to press his Amendment. So far as there is any hardship to existing institutions, we will consider any cases of that kind. But if we are to make exceptions on the Report stage in favour of any society, whether building or otherwise, we must have evidence, which does not exist merely on a statement that this Bill will bring ruin to this or that institution. There must be real definite evidence given that a state of things will be created which will imperil the existence of the institution, and we shall be more than ready to consider favourably any such cases. But I cannot agree to bring in mortgages which the Government have deliberately determined to exclude from the operation of the Bill.

I should like to remind the Committee, and especially the hon. Member who moved the Amendment, that there is another class of mortgage which probably was not in his mind. I have no doubt that he and the Solicitor-General have in their mind a mortgage on the mere deposit of the title deeds, which would constitute a mortgage without a deed. But there is a case—and a very frequent one—of the mortgagee who mortgages the equity of redemption. He has no title deeds to part with, and he enters into this new mortgage without depositing any deed at all. I am not sure that this is a point which the Solicitor-General has considered. What is the position of a mortgagor who has given a first mortgage on his property for a sum which may be very low, and who has then given a second mortgage. It is quite clear as between him and the first mortgagee, the rate of interest cannot be raised on the first mortgage, but it may be raised very seriously on the second mortgage on the equity of redemption. I am not sure that this does not tend to undermine the principle which obviously the Government has in view. It is a matter which wants consideration, and no doubt will receive it. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that, as a matter of practice, it is a very common state of affairs to find a mortgagor who has mortgaged the equity of redemption. I should very much like to hear his view on that point.

The point is a real one, and has been considered. We propose to meet it by an Amendment which stands in my name to leave out the words "mortgage or." I quite agree that where you have a mortgage on an equity of redemption, which is a second or third mortgage, we do not want to exempt that kind of mortgage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn:

I beg to move, in Subsection (4), after the word "apply" ["except that it shall not apply to an equitable mortgage"], to insert the words,

"( a ) to any mortgage comprising one or more dwelling-houses to which this Act applies and other land if the rateable value of such dwelling-houses is less than one-tenth of the rateable value of the whole of the land comprised in the mortgage, or (b)."

These are words which prevent the Bill applying to a mortgage -where the rateable value of the dwelling-house is less than one-tenth of the rateable value of the whole of the land comprised in the mortgage. The Amendment carries out a scheme which I outlined to the Committee yesterday when we were engaged upon another Sub-section. The effect of it is to make it unnecessary to have a very complicated and difficult scheme in such cases. We now draw the line in another way. We only apply the Bill to cases where the land protected by the rent Clause is a substantial part of the mortgage land. It is a plan that will work perfectly well, because in cases like that the mortgagor is not bound to make up his loss of interest by throwing the rent over the whole area of the property and he might very well make up his loss of interest by charging it over the remaining nine-tenths. I do not think he ought to claim the right to raise the rent of small property simply because the mortgage over a very large area includes the smaller property. This Amendment will save a great deal of trouble.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Subsection (4), leave out the words "mortgage or" ["an equitable mortgage or charge"]; at the end of Sub-section (4) insert as a new Sub-section,

"(5) Where this Act has become applicable to any dwelling-house or any mortgage thereon it shall continue to apply thereto whether or not the dwelling-house continues to be a dwelling-house to which this Act applies."

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (4), to add the words "or to a mortgage to a building society incorporated under the Building Societies' Acts."

It will be within the recollection of the Committee that yesterday, when the question of the building societies was brought forward, I moved an Amendment giving them power to raise the rate of interest by ½per cent., where that was within the original terms of the bargain. The Solicitor-General said that the Government could not accept the proposal at that point, and I did not press him to do so, because I merely wished to state a very difficult case and to leave it to the Government to say how they thought that case could be best and most justly met. The Solicitor-General indicated that if it were proposed to leave it to the members of the building society to determine the rate of interest on loans to members, that would seem to him to be a much more reasonable proposition than to give them a general power of raising the rate of interest. I put my Amendment down originally in three forms. They were not forms of my own inventing, but they were suggested to me by the Association of Building Societies who had approached me. The last one, to which we have now come, is very much the widest in scope. I do not propose it to the Committee as being the solution which I press the Government to accept. I raise it as an opportunity for hearing what the Government are willing to do in this matter. If the words are not satisfactory they can easily be modified so as only to enact the concession of which the Solicitor-General yesterday spoke as being a possibility. I do not put it above that, and I do not say that he pledged the Government to it. It could be modified by adding the words "made for securing a loan to one of its own members." The Amendment would then provide that the Bill should not apply to a mortgage to a building society incorporated under the Building Societies' Acts, made for securing a loan to one of its own members. The business of a building society is primarily to take money from its own members, and to loan it to its own members. The loans to its own members are upon an entirely different footing from loans which it may make to outsiders.

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but I have only just observed that the acceptance by the Committee of the last Amendment, inserting a new Sub-section (5), makes this Amendment and also the next two not read, certainly in the form in which they appear on the Paper. The hon. Member will see that his Amendment, as set down on the Paper, was applicable to Sub-section (4). We have now passed Sub-section (4) and inserted a new Sub-section (5)

On the point of Order. Ought not my Amendment, therefore, to have appeared upon the Paper before the one that has been dealt with? Ought I to be prejudiced by the fact that the Amendments are printed on the Paper in the wrong order?

The Paper is printed in quite the right order, and, of course, at the particular place the Government has a right to precedence. That is how it comes about. The hon. Member should have been watching his Amendment and should have intervened earlier. Now he must raise this question on the other stage of the Bill.

Yesterday we had a discussion on the same subject on the minor suggestion. This is the major suggestion. I would suggest to my hon. Friend that he should reserve it for the Report stage, and that in the meantime he should take advantage of the suggestion I have made more than once, that the building societies should, through him and other Members, make a full statement of their case to me and bring actual evidence, not merely make assertions.

So far as I am concerned, I very readily accept that suggestion. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman I have quite independently urged upon the building societies that they should lay their case before him.

I am afraid that my Amendment is similarly out of order owing to the fact that the Solicitor-General's Amendment has been interposed. I do not know whether the President of the Local Government Board and the Committee would allow me to move it. It is of the shortest possible character.

My difficulty is that the Committee has accepted the Solicitor-General's Amendment. If I allowed the hon. Member to move, there would be a possibility of the Bill being left ungrammatical.

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (5). This revives the question which was touched upon earlier in the evening. Sub-section (5) says,

"This Act shall apply only to the rent payable by a tenant in actual occupation of the premises and to mortgages by the immediate landlord of such tenant."

Then there comes a proviso which says that if tenant subsequently lets it shall apply to the sub-tenant, and an Amendment later on, in the name of the Solicitor-General, I think comes to very much the same thing only in rather clearer words, and means that if, subsequently to the Act, a tenant who would be protected sub-lets to a sub-tenant, the sub-tenant would be equally protected. But as far as I am able to understand this Clause, I think it does not meet the position of affairs existing at the time of the passing of the Act. Take what is very common indeed in many parts of London, cases of tenement houses in which there are perhaps two, three, or four landlords, one above the other. Supposing there is a house in which the tenant A has let to B, and B does not occupy but lets again to C, and even C does not occupy but lets to D, who again lets it out in flats. If I understand the operation of this Clause, the intermediate landlords will be able to raise their rents because they will not be in occupation. I should have thought precisely the same reasoning applied to the subsequent superior and inferior landlord as the Government have applied to the mortgagors and the mortgagees. They have said that the mortgagee shall not have the right to squeeze the mortgagor when the mortgagor cannot extract any further rent from his tenant, and I should have thought it was only fair and much simpler to say that, in relation to all these premises, no landlord should have the right to squeeze any intermediate landlord. And therefore, unless there is some real reason for making this limitation in regard to rents that is not made in regard to mortgages, I suggest that it would be better to leave out Sub-section (5) altogether. I hope the Solicitor-General will consider this point and tell us why the Sub-section is necessary. If it is not necessary, it would be better to cut it out.

10.0 P.M.

I am not quite sure what my right hon. Friend proposes in lieu of this Sub-section. The purpose of the Bill is to prevent rents being raised on the tenant in occupation of the house, and that will be entirely effected by the Bill as it stands. The right hon. Gentleman seems to have in mind the case of a series of landlords, one standing up above the other. That is very unlikely to arise in cases such as we are dealing with here. It will mainly be weekly property let very likely on lease by one man to another, and by him let as tenements to the small tenants. The lease is very unlikely to fall in, and if it falls in the point is to protect the actual tenant, and he is protected. Of course, we are going to amend it by making it quite clear that where the effective tenant sub-lets the sub-tenant is also fully protected. I hope that will satisfy the right hon. Gentleman.

I am satisfied with the Amendment where the tenant has already sub-let, as is the case now, but the right hon. Gentleman is not quite so well acquainted with the conditions of the poor in London. There is the occupier of the room; there is the occupier of the house; there is the short-period landlord, who possibly only has it for three years; there is the landlord who has it for twenty-one years, and there is possibly a superior landlord still. I can assure him that there are these layers, so to speak, of landlords, and they have not been protected by this Bill.

This whole Clause is intended to provide for cases where, after the Bill has come into operation, some change has taken place in the circumstances. The case the right hon. Gentleman has in mind is not at all a case arising out of the passing of the Act. It is a case existing at the passing of the Act. It is a very proper Amendment to deal with the case it was intended to deal with, but the case that has been argued is the case of sub-letting existing when the Act passed. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that that is not covered by his Amendment and it really requires to be covered.

I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is his intention, by any improvement that may be made in this or any subsequent Section, to protect the actual tenant in occupation from the rent being raised? If so, I can see no objection that can be raised to this Clause.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Subsection (5), to leave out the words "it shall continue to apply thereto notwithstanding that the dwelling house is subsequently sub-let by the tenant," and to insert instead thereof the words,

"and the dwelling-house is subsequently sub-let by the tenant, this Act shall apply not only to the rent payable by the sub-tenant and mortgages by the tenant, but also shall continue to apply to any rent payable by the tenant, and any mortgage by his immediate landlord to which it has become so applicable as aforesaid."

I should like to move an Amendment to the proposed Amendment to leave out the word "subsequently."

I have listened very carefully to what was said by the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Dickinson) after I had spoken, and also to what has been said by the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. M. Healy), and I think I follow their point. I will very carefully look into the matter between now and the Report stage and see what can be done to meet their point.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I am very glad that the Clause has passed without any essential alterations so far as the rent limit and the amount of interest payable are concerned. At the same time, I am glad to hear the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) as to the position of building societies. Being a member of a building society, having been long associated with building societies, and feeling the utmost confidence in them, and a desire to see them continuing to encourage building and to encourage the working people to look after their own interests, I have found myself in a very peculiar position, because, whilst having every inclination to support them if it were possible to do so within the four corners of this Bill, I have found it impossible to support their Amendments. I understood an Amendment which was moved to-night embodies the principle to limit any alteration made in the Bill to those cases in which the workmen were the borrowers as well as the lenders. It seems to me that that Amendment does embody a principle that could be very well adopted by the Government, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take that into favourable consideration if it is presented by the building societies between now and the Report stage.

I very readily respond to the appeal made to me. Like the hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes), we have found ourselves in an extremely difficult position, because we feel that the stability of building societies is a matter of supreme importance, especially to the wage-earning classes who largely are depending upon these societies for the provision of the houses in which they live. We know also that if any disaster were to overtake the building societies it would operate over a very wide field and create immense trouble to the very people we are seeking to help by this Bill. So far as we are concerned, I say, on behalf of the Government, that we are quite ready and willing to consider any reasonable proposal brought forward on behalf of these societies in order to safeguard them without infringing upon the principles of this Bill; and if it is generally acceptable to the sense of the House on the Report stage, I should be quite ready to hear on behalf of the Government any definite statement. I do not want to be told simply that this means ruin to these societies. I have been so long a Member of this House and I have heard that word so often —

Often, and probably shall again. I know that so many of these institutions whose ruin I have myself foretold in days gone by are still strong and flourishing. Therefore the force of that argument is not as strong with me as it might have been otherwise. I want something more definite than mere statements of that kind. I must have fair evidence that this Bill is going to operate in such a way as to injure these societies, and a definite proposal as to the way in which we can avoid this injury, with justice to others concerned. If that can be done, I shall be glad for it to be done between now and the Report stage.

I prophesy that when the right hon. Gentleman meets representatives of these building societies that not one of them will tell him that they are going to be ruined. I think that the representatives of the building societies will think twice before they make such a confession as that, and I think that the right hon. Gentleman need have no fear that building societies are anywhere near that perilous position which has been indicated or suggested by some hon. Members. As one of the many who supported the right hon. Gentleman's resistance to this claim on behalf of the building societies at an earlier stage, I appeal to him not to give way if he can possibly avoid doing so with justice, and to stick to his point. I feel after the very striking opposition there was to any proposal that building societies should be in a better position than private individuals, the right hon. Gentleman would not be doing right in giving way, unless there are some extremely weighty reasons which the champions of building societies did not advance in the earlier discussions of the Bill.

I do not see why the position of building societies should be different from the position of private individuals. My sympathies are all with the private individuals. It is the business of the building society to protect itself against any Bill which it may be necessary to pass in this House, and if they have not done so the weakest must go to the wall. The private individual cannot protect himself. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that when this question came up at the earlier stage, the House was overwhelmingly in favour of his sticking to the Bill in this respect. I do not think there were more than two hon. Members who spoke in support of the point of view of the building societies, and I beg the right hon. Gentleman not to give way unless he is absolutely satisfied that there is some case which is really unanswerable.

I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman will consider this matter upon its merits, and will not take the assertion of any one hon. Member that the sense of the House was overwhelmingly one way or another, a statement for which there is no evidence. In justice to myself, I should like to say that I did not talk about ruin. I did speak about the possibility of building societies going into liquidation. That might happen to any institution upon which a big run took place without its having the means of supplementing its funds. I am perfectly willing to leave the matter to the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 4.—(Application to Scotland and Ireland.)

(1) This Act shall apply to Scotland, subject to the following modifications:—

"Borough or urban district" means a royal, parliamentary, or police burgh; "mortgage" or "mortgage of real property" means a heritable security; "fine" means grassum or consideration other than rent; "mortgagee" means the creditor in a heritable security; "covenants" means conditions; "mortgaged property" means the heritable subject or subjects included in a heritable security; "rateable value", means yearly value according to the valuation roll; and "County Court" means the sheriff.

(2) This Act shall apply to Ireland, subject to the following modification:—

A borough or urban district with a population exceeding twenty-five thousand shall be substituted for a borough or urban district with a population exceeding one hundred thousand.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "borough or urban district means a royal, parliamentary, or police burgh." This and other Amendments are merely consequential on Amendments already made.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: Leave out the words "'mortgagee' means," and insert instead thereof the words "'mortgagor' and 'mortgagee' mean respectively the debtor and."—[ Mr. McKinnon Wood. ]

I beg to move, after the word "roll," to insert the words:

"'rateable value on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen' means yearly value according to the valuation roll for the year ending fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and fifteen; 'assessed' means entered in the valuation roll; 'land' means lands and heritages; 'enactments relating to compounding' include the House-letting and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1911."

This Amendment is intended to make perfectly plain the intentions of the Bill and to give certain definitions.

Amendment agreed to.

On behalf of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Birrell) I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to omit the words from the word "Ireland" to the end of the Clause.

Amendment agreed to.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed "to.

CLAUSE 5.—(Short Title and Duration.)

(1) This Act may be cited as the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest(War Restrictions) Act, 1915.

(2) This Act shall continue in force during the continuance of the present War and for a period of six months thereafter and no longer, but the expiration of this Act shall not render recoverable any sum which during the continuance thereof was irrecoverable or affect the right of a tenant to recover any sum which during the continuance thereof was under this Act recoverable by him.

I beg to move to leave out the word "six," and to insert instead thereof the word "twelve."

When the War is over and the men come home there will be a large demand for houses, and landlords should not have the opportunity of raising rents. The Munitions Act comes to an end twelve months after the War, and this Act should be on the same footing.

I hope the Committee will agree to the proposal in the Bill. The pro- vision in the Bill gives security supposing that the War came suddenly to an end, whereas if it comes to an end gradually and the termination of hostilities is followed by other conditions here, it is quite obvious that all the Statutes which have been passed during the duration of the War would, have to be dealt with by Parliament. On the whole this follows the other arrangements which have been made, and I hope that the Committee will adhere to it.

I see no reason for not inserting twelve months in this Act when we have it in the Munitions Act. There will be a great deal of confusion after the War is over. The cost of everything in connection with the erection of houses will be up. After the demobilisation of the Army a large number of men will be out of work, and it will be as necessary to afford protection then as now. I was sorry to hear what the right hon. Gentleman said, but I hope that he will not commit himself definitely, but will keep his mind open till the Report stage of the Bill.

As the Committee knows, an immense number of Statutes have been passed for the duration of the War and for a certain period after the War—some twelve months and some six months. On the whole I think it better to keep to six months. It is obvious that if the War conditions continue Parliament can take the necessary steps to prolong this or any other Act. But probably before that time comes Parliament will have to decide what is meant by the phrase "duration of the War."

Amendment negatived.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

In regard to the new Clauses which appear on the Paper, the first two are outside the scope of the Bill, and the same applies to the third and fourth. The fifth and sixth are duplicates. The seventh has been dealt with by Amendment. The new Clause in the name of the hon. Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield)—

The point in the new Clauses in the name of the hon. Member for Bradford has been settled; and that in the new Clause of the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) was taken by Amendment—

The hon. Member will recollect that he asked when a certain Amendment could be taken, and I told him when it could be dealt with. The last new Clause on the Paper is also outside the scope of the Bill.

Amendment made: Title, leave out the words "in certain areas."—[ Mr. Long. ]

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next.

Education (Small Population Grants) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

The right hon. Gentleman made a fairly long speech in moving the Resolution, and I take it that it is his intention that that speech should stand for the explanation of the Bill unless some Member asks a question?

Yes.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.— [ Mr. Gulland. ]

Indictments Bill—[Lords]

As amended, considered.

CLAUSE 2.—(Powers of Rule Committee.)

(1) There shall be established for the purpose of this Act a Rule Committee consisting of the Lord Chief Justice of England for the time being, and of a judge of the High Court, a chairman of Quarter Sessions, a recorder, a clerk of assize, a clerk of the peace, and another person having experience in criminal procedure, appointed in each case by the Lord Chief Justice.

(2) The Rule Committee shall have power from time to time, subject to the approval of the Lord Chancellor, to make rules varying or annulling the rules contained in the First Schedule to this Act, and to make further rules with respect to the matters dealt with in those rules, and those rules shall have effect subject to any modifications or additions so made.

(3) Any rules made by the Rule Committee shall be laid as soon as may be before both Houses of Parliament, and if within forty days on which either House has sat since the rules were so laid before the House a petition is presented to His Majesty praying that the rules or any part of them may be annulled His Majesty-may thereupon by Order in Council annul the same, and the same shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything done thereunder.

(4) The term of office of any person who is a member of the Committee by virtue of appointment shall be such as may be specified in the appointment.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), after the word "Majesty" ["His Majesty"], to insert the words "by that House." The whole of the Amendments on Report are either Amendments to fulfil pledges given in Committee, and which, therefore, have been fully discussed, or are Amendments put down by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. King), which I have agreed to accept.

I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned." I do so on this ground. With regard to business, a notice ought to be put up in the Lobby. I was assured that no new business would be taken if, on the Increase of Rent Bill, which we have just disposed of, we got to ten o'clock. I should like to point out that we are now at 10.30 o'clock, and the Members interested in this Bill are not here, and did not expect it to come on. I do not suppose it would take more than a very short time if put back on Monday or Tuesday. There is no desire to obstruct Government business, but I do submit that, in view of the assurance given to me personally, it should not be taken now. On that ground I beg to move.

I am very sorry, as the Solicitor-General and I have come to an agreement to put this Bill through. I think we are the only two Members now interested in the Bill. There were certain others, but they are all fled. I think it is for the convenience of the Government and that it will save time to take the Bill, but if the hon. Member insists on his Motion I shall not raise any objection, although I am very sorry that he should have taken this course.

The suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule was for the purpose of concluding the Committee stage of the Bill with which we have just been dealing. In the ordinary course, if every point had been discussed as it might have been, the proceedings on that Bill would have gone beyond eleven o'clock, and it would have been impossible to take the Solicitor-General's Amendments to this Bill. Many Members, knowing that on the Adjournment a discussion was to take place on a very important matter regarding the agreement with Denmark, cut short their speeches, or even refrained altogether from raising points which they would otherwise have raised. In view of these circumstances, it is not fair that advantage should be taken of the forbearance of these hon. Members to press through business of which no notice whatever was given, except to the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King). I would ask my hon. Friend not to assume that because he has an Amendment on the Paper he is the only person interested in a particular Bill. I think the Government would do well not to insist on taking this Bill to-night, but to allow the remaining period of the sitting to be devoted to the discussion on the Adjournment.

I have taken considerable interest in this Bill. The only point of substance to be dealt with is an Amendment in the name of the Solicitor-General. The right hon. Gentleman very courteously showed it to me, and it entirely meets the point that I raised. The hon. Member for Pontefract was also interested in the Bill, and I think he would do well to let it go through.

There is no desire on the part of anyone to oppose the Bill. It is quite true that I have taken an interest in the measure, but I have had no notice of these points. They seem to have been arranged with two hon. Members opposite, although I was equally interested. I protest against the Bill being taken against the pledge given to me.

I had no arrangement, but I suggest that the Bill might really go through.

I hope my hon. Friends will allow us to go on. The Bill could have been through by now. I know of no pledge, and as far as I can ascertain hon. Friends near me do not know of any pledge not to take the Bill to-night. The only Members who have Amendments on the Paper are the hon. Member for North Somerset and myself. There is no arrangement except that neither of us objects to the Amendment to be moved by the other. Therefore, unless somebody else objects, the matter will go through in a few minutes. Can I meet hon. Members in this way? Let the Amendments be moved, and then if anybody objects to any one of them I will not object to the Adjournment of the Debate. If nobody objects, the matter will be through in a few seconds.

I quite see that if I take a Division I shall simply rob my right hon. Friend (Sir H. Dalziel) of time for his discussion. I do not know what the object of the Government is. It is a distinct breach of faith with me. I was an authorised representative of a group of Members who wished to raise a discussion. I was urged to raise a particular point on the Third Reading of the Finance Bill, but I refrained from doing so, to the disappointment of my friends outside, because I thought it would rob my right hon. Friend of the opportunity of bringing forward the question of the Denmark agreement. Now this Bill is brought forward which will rob him of his time. It is an unfair position for the Government to put us in, and it will not facilitate business on another night. We will have a definite understanding, and the Government must take the consequences.

Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned," put, and negatived.

Question, "That the words 'by that house' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 3.—(Indictments Not to he Open to Objection if in Accordance with Rules.)

Notwithstanding any rule of law or practice, an indictment shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, not be open to objection in respect of its form or contents if it is framed in accordance with the rules under this Act.

I beg to move, at beginning, to insert,

"(1) Every indictment shall contain, and shall be sufficient if it contains, a statement of the specific offence or offences with which the accused person is charged, together with such particulars as may be necessary for giving reasonable information as to the nature of the charge."

I am not in favour of this Amendment, but as any discussion would simply rob my right hon. Friend of his opportunity I let it go; and I am a party to this farce!

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 6.—(Costs of Defective or Redundant Indictments.)

Where it appears to the Court that an indictment contains unnecessary matter, or is of unnecessary length, or is materially defective in any respect, the Court may make such order for the payment of that part of the costs of the prosecution which has been incurred by reason of the indictment so containing unnecessary matter, or being of unnecessary length, or being defective as the Court thinks fit.

Amendments made: Leave out the word "for" ["for the payment"], and insert instead thereof the words "as to."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

After the word "being" ["being defective"], insert the word "materially."— [ Mr. King. ]

CLAUSE 9.—(Repeal, Extent, Short Title, and Commencement.)

(1) The enactments specified in the Second Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent mentioned in the third column of that Schedule.

(2) This Act shall not extend to Scotland or Ireland.

(3) This Act may be cited as the Indictments Act, 1915.

(4) This Act shall come into operation on the first day of March, nineteen hundred and sixteen, but shall not apply to indictments in the case of persons committed for trial before that date, or to the trial of any such person.

Amendment made: In Sub-section (4) leave out the word "March," and insert instead thereof the word "April."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

Schedules.—First Schedule

Rules

Material, etc., for Indictments.

I.—(1) An indictment may be on parchment or durable paper, and may be either written or printed, or partly written and partly printed.

(5) There shall be endorsed on the back of an indictment the name of every witness examined or intended to be examined by the grand jury.

(6) An indictment shall not be open to objection by reason only of any failure to comply with this rule.

Charge of Previous Convictions, etc.

II.—Any charge of a previous conviction of an offence or of being a habitual criminal or a habitual drunkard shall be charged at the end of the indictment by means of a statement—in the case of a previous conviction that the person accused has been previously convicted of that offence at a certain time and place without stating the particulars of the offence, and in the case of a habitual criminal or habitual drunkard, that the offender is a habitual criminal or a habitual drunkard. Nothing in these rules shall affect the provisions of Sub-section (4) of Section thirty-two of the Children Act, 1908.

Appendix to Rules

FORMS OF INDICTMENT.

3.

STATEMENT OF OFFENCE.

Manslaughter.

PARTICULARS OF OFFENCE.

A.B., on the day of, in the county of, killed J.S.

Amendments made: In Sub-section (5), after the word "jury" ["grand jury"], insert the words "and the foreman of the grand jury shall write his initials against the name of each witness so examined."

In Sub-section (6), after the word "with" ["comply with this rule"], insert the words "paragraphs (1) to (4), inclusive, of."

In Sub-section (11), after the word "drunkard" ["habitual drunkard "], insert the words "as the case may be."

After the word "rules" ["Nothing in these rules"] insert the words "or in any rules made under Section two of this Act."—[ Mr. King. ]

In Form 3, Statement of Offence, before the word "killed," insert the word "unlawfully."

24.

STATEMENT OF OFFENCES.

A.B., undischarged bankrupt obtaining credit contrary to Section 5 (1) (a) of the Bankruptcy Act, 1913;

CD., being accessory to same offence.

PARTICULARS OF OFFENCES.

A.B., on the day of in the county of being an undischarged bankrupt obtained credit to the extent of twelve pounds from H.S. without informing the said H.S. that he then was an undischarged bankrupt.

C.D., at the same time and place, did aid, abet, counsel, and procure A.B. to commit the said offence.

In Form 24, Statement of Offence, leave out the words "5 (1) (a) of the Bankruptcy Act, 1913," and insert instead thereof the words "155 (a) of the Bankruptcy Act 1914."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

Second Schedule

ENACTMENTS REPEALED.

19 & 20 Viet. c. 54.

The Grand Juries Act, 1866.

In section one the words "and the name of every witness examined or intended to be so examined; shall be endorsed on such bill of indictment."

I beg to move, after the word "indictment," to insert the words "and the foreman of such grand jury shall write his initials against the name of each witness so sworn and examined touching such bill of indictment."

I object to this Amendment. I understood that the Solicitor-general opposed it.

I am not at all satisfied with the form of the Amendment. It seems to me a very serious thing that we have passed a number of Amendments that are not on the Paper—at all events on the Paper supplied to me at the Vote Office. We have had no opportunity to consider them.

We passed an Amendment inserting these very words in the Rules and Schedules of the Bill. The only point of this Amendment is to omit them from the previous Act so that they shall not appear twice.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made:

50 & 51 Viet. c. 71.

The Coroner's Act, 1887

In paragraph (2) of section eighteen the words "except in the case of murder and manslaughter."

Leave out the word "and" ["murder and manslaughter"], and insert instead thereof the word "or."—[ Mr. King. ]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

I think we ought to have some time to consider this Bill. The Third Reading might well wait until Monday.

I will not object.

Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned," put, and agreed to.

Debate to be resumed upon Monday next.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Trade With Denmark

Re-Exports to Germany

Whereupon Mr. Speaker, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

In the course of some remarks I made a few evenings ago on the question of supplies going to the enemy through neutral countries, I ventured to ask the Noble Lord who represents the Foreign Office if he could give us a little fuller information than we had of the Agreement which had been entered into between His Majesty's Government and two representative merchant associations in Denmark. The Noble Lord was good enough to say in his reply that he would make inquiries to see whether the Agreement could be laid upon the Table, and that he would inform us of the decision at a later date. On Monday the Noble Lord made an announcement that after inquiries he had found there were insurmountable difficulties why it should not be published. Therefore, so far as the Government is concerned, the matter rests there. The Government have refused to authorise the publication of this Agreement. In spite of that, I to-night wish very respectfully to make the demand to the Government that that Agreement should be published. One of the principal reasons I ask the Government to publish it is that it cannot be kept secret. You have two merchant associations at Copenhagen, consisting both of large numbers of members. Presumably, every member of those associations will have to be informed of the provisions of this Agreement in order that he may not break them. It is rather difficult, I think, to keep a secret where there are so many concerned. Not only that, but to my knowledge copies of this Agreement have been circulated in Norway and Sweden as well as in Denmark and in America. Therefore, in the course of a few days we as Members of the British House of Commons will have to buy American papers, as we have had to do on many important matters in connection with the War, in order to see really what this Agreement contains. It is no secret that this afternoon the Noble Lord himself received a large number of Members from the other side to discuss this Agreement, and I think I am not wrong in saying he unfolded to them its provisions. Therefore I think if one section of the House —the party to which the Noble Lord belongs—is made acquainted with the provisions of this Agreement, I confess I cannot see that a case can be put forward for Members on this side of the House not being put in possession of the real facts. Not only that, but this has also been published in Germany, so that it is not a question of keeping the facts back from the enemy. The German official news agency circulated on Friday last a summary of the agreement entered into between this country and these traders' associations, and I want the House to keep in mind that I am dealing with an agreement made between His Majesty's Government and the representatives of the traders' associations. The Government will know how far the German version is a correct one. In some particulars this version is purposely not correct, but that is a clever way they have in Germany of letting their own people know just what they want them to know and nothing more. Article 1 says, I will take another Article and the Noble Lord will know how near it is to the facts. Clause 4 provides that Is that or is that not a misrepresentation of the Article in the real agreement? In Section 2 of the same Article the following paragraph is alleged to appear: Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs were able to be present, and it was answered by the Secretary of State for India. I got no satisfactory reply. I would like to know, and I think that the House ought to know definitely, if there has been a change in policy or if there has not. Does the Government still adhere to the statement of the Prime Minister that no commodities are to be allowed to reach or to leave the enemy's shores? I think that I am entitled to an answer to that definite question. I would further like to know whether they are satisfied that the agreement they have made, whatever the agreement may be, is one which gives no preference to Denmark over other neutral countries. It would be advisable to have a definite assurance on the point. We ourselves know—there is no secret about it—how we have been allowing things to go to Denmark since the commencement of the War. I spoke the other night of what would be allowed to go to Holland. The figures with regard to Denmark, if possible, are even worse. I will take tea. Before the War we sent 1,100,000 lbs. of tea to Denmark in the whole year. In the last three months alone we sent 4,803,820 lbs. of tea—or four times the quantity we used to send in one year. I think the House will agree there ought to be an explanation forthcoming where that tea is going. I do not believe there is a shadow of doubt that it is going to Germany at the present moment. For some time tea has been part of the rations served out to German soldiers. These are facts which ought to be explained to the House.

Another point on which I would like information is: Was this agreement ever submitted to the Cabinet? The Noble Lord was asked that the other day. I think we ought to have an answer. I venture to say that, in this case, the answer would be in the negative. I cannot conceive a full Cabinet sitting down and deliberately discussing the question of helping to win the War and then authorising any agreement which recognised the supply to belligerent countries, through a neutral, of food and other things which are useful to them at the present moment. I see the Chancellor in the German Reichstag has boasted that, at last they have a sufficient supply of many things of which they were short. I am not greatly surprised, and I challenge any man who looks at the figures to deny that from the beginning of the War, by permission of the British Government and in defiance of the wishes of the British Navy, regulations have been made which have dealt an almost deadly blow at the blockade we are supposed to have enforced. That is a very serious matter.

I say to the Noble Lord—and I say it quite frankly, because a great part of this took place before he came into office—there is a growing opinion outside that, in the Foreign Office, there is a weak and ineffective policy. There is a feeling, judging from the past and from the present, that there are influences at work which suggest that we ought not to be too hard on Germany and that the time may come when we have to live in the same world with her. There is much too tender treatment so far as matters under the control of the foreign Office are concerned. There is a suggestion it should be a war with roses so far as Foreign Office policy goes. I subscribe to the feeling which is held outside. We know there was an agitation month after month after the War began about things of vital importance going to the enemy. We know the history of it, and that it was only stopped by declaring the articles contraband. I say the people outside are getting anxious, and I want the Noble Lord to give an assurance to-night—one as reassuring as he can make it—that our growing anxiety in this matter is ill-founded. I hope, too, he will give an explanation of this agreement satisfactory both to this House and outside. I tell him the more vigorous the foreign policy of the Government is with regard to assisting the effective blockade, the more will it satisfy the people of this country.

11.0 P.M.

I know the Noble Lord will tell me he regrets extremely that I have raised this question to-night, and he will associate it with all kinds of difficulties with neutral countries and so forth. I considered all that before I mentioned the subject. We have a duty to ourselves quite as much as the Noble Lord has to his office. From the information I have got about the Agreement, I believe it is a bad Agreement for the country. I believe the principle of authorising Agreements recognising the supply from neutral countries to the enemy of goods which he requires is a bad policy which cannot be defended. The Noble Lord may say "Oh, yes, but we have limited them to get only the same quantity as Denmark had before the War." That is no reply, especially when we know the amount of stocks that have been handled month after month, to the present time. Previously to the operation of this Agreement there were large stocks in London waiting to be sent over to Denmark when the Agreement was signed. I appeal to the Noble Lord to give us as much information in this matter as he can, because there is a good deal of real anxiety with regard to the reports in circulation about the Agreement.

I desire to know why the House of Commons should be kept in ignorance of an Agreement which has not been entered into between this country and the Danish Government, but between this Government and certain Danish merchants, an Agreement which will be known throughout Scandinavian countries, which necessarily must be known to them if it is to be effective, an Agreement which must be widely known to the traders in this country, but of which Parliament is to be kept in ignorance. The policy of His Majesty's Government throughout this War has been to treat the House of Commons with contempt in every way, as a body having neither common sense nor patriotic feeling, but as having a desire to hamper Ministers in carrying on the War. [An HON. MEMBER: "As fools!"] We are not a nation of fools. The people with regard to whom the country is rapidly coming to the conclusion that they are foolish are His Majesty's Ministers. The country is sound, the country is anxious to see the War carried on, and carried on vigorously, and the country has no use for the policy of His Majesty's Government in giving these facilities to the enemy, which, we understand, through this Agreement, are being given to Germany. Either the declaration of the Prime Minister holds good or it does not. I have asked many questions on this subject of goods going from this country, viæ neutral countries, to Germany. The whole procedure of the Foreign Office has been illegal in this matter. It was the clear duty of the Government to enforce their own Order in Council. When vessels had been captured by the Fleet they ought to have been brought before a Prize Court presided over by a judge and adjudicated upon. Instead of that, they have taken the matter into their own hands. The Foreign Office have dictated, in effect, to the Board of Trade what goods are to be sent abroad and what are not to be sent. The only satisfaction one gets from the Noble Lord who now represents the Foreign Office is that when we raised this question on the last occasion he did say that the exports to Germany through neutral countries had increased. That was the effect of the somewhat hasty statement be made. The House and the country are entitled to know why we have departed from the Order in Council. That is the question upon which I based my questions to the Noble Lord.

The Prime Minister definitely laid down in this House certain conditions, which the people are going to see carried out. Are the Government departing from that principle or not? The principle is quite clear. For once in a way the language used by the Prime Minister was quite specific. There is no hedging or getting round his language. It is clear and distinct. No goods were to be sent after 11th March to Germany or from Germany. What has happened? This Agreement is going to place in the hands of any one neutral not only the power of saying what goods shall go, but the power of handing over to Germany both malt for the manufacture of beer, and beer itself, while you are restraining people in this country from having beer. You set up under your Munitions Act tribunals to prevent working men from having beer in this country, and you are actually going to export beer through Denmark to Germany. Whether that is with the object of doing damage to the German working men I am not in a position to say. The whole thing is so ludicrous that the Noble Lord should explain to us why these facilities are being given to Germany, and why we are giving them the right to import beer and malt, which I understand come under this Schedule. I want to ask one question. I do not suggest that Lord Haldane has played any part whatever in negotiating this treaty. I do not say so. Lord Haldane recently met a number of American journalists to whom a definite statement was made. I am given on the highest authority to understand that Lord Haldane was opposed to the policy of starving Germany. I believe that declaration is about to be made by a noted journalist in the American Press. If that statement be true, does not this document reflect the views of Lord Haldane or the policy that this country should adopt towards Germany? I do not say, because I have no knowledge of the facts, whether Lord Haldane took any part whatever in it. Probably he had no part in the actual drawing of the agreement. But I want to know whether the Noble Lord is aware that Lord Haldane had met these journalists, whether he had any consultation with the Foreign Secretary on the matter, and, if so, will he give all the information he can to the House?

I think it is a quite legitimate question which has been raised from the other side of the House, although I approach the question from a rather different standpoint. I think the House ought to look with some suspicion on these agreements which are being made. There is a great deal of discontent in the City with regard to the agreement made with Holland and the Netherlands Oversea Trust. This agreement seems to be used simply to damage British trade and to let in as much of the articles which are annually imported from this country into Holland from other countries, and to interfere as far as possible with the trade from London and from this country generally. If possible, from the little I have heard about it, this agreement which has been made with Denmark is rather worse than the one which was made with Holland before. I think the Noble Lord ought to give us all the information in his power with regard to it. Hon. Members opposite have taken up a position which seems to me, from the little I know of what is going on with our trade, to be one that ought to appeal very strongly to the House. They appear to assume that the Government is making a bargain about goods of various kinds going to Germany. From the City point of view, that seems an extraordinary position for the Government to take up. The sole basis on which any commerce is allowed into neutral countries is that the best guarantees that are possible shall be obtained that not one pound's worth exported from this country should go to the enemy. I think, therefore, if there is any arrangement made by our Government that a certain amount of goods can go into Germany it is a matter that ought to be explained to the House of Commons. I understand, on the other hand, that the Government may have certain suspicions, that there are many cases where guarantees have been got with regard to goods exported to this country—the best guarantees we could get—where the conditions of these guarantees have not been strictly observed. The traders have not full power over that matter. The Government have commercial agents in connection with the Embassies in all these neutral countries, and especially in Denmark and Rotterdam. I think the Government ought to act in concert with the traders. That is to say, they ought to assist them in carrying out the rules which are laid down. The rule is that there should be no trading with the enemy. No one is allowed to export anything unless he has a definite assurance that the exported goods shall not reach the enemy. The Government ought to follow that up in the same spirit and say, "So far as we are concerned we will not assent to anything going through." It may be said, "How is the Government to prevent a leakage of something getting through which ought not to get through? I think the commercial agents at these places have the power and the means of getting information which traders have not got, and they might inquire and do all they can to help the traders. On the other hand, there is this difficulty: We ought to remember that these neutral countries have been largely depending upon Hamburg before the War for their supplies, and one benefit of the War to this country may be that business which used to go through Hamburg may now come through London and this country. While the War lasts I suppose it is very important that this business should be allowed, provided that there is no leakage to Germany. I think that the various aspects of the question ought to be borne in mind by the Government as well as by the trader.

For instance, it is understood that the largest part of the imports into Russia are going through Denmark at the present time. It would be quite easy for the British Government to ascertain. The Noble Lord shakes his head. With great respect to him, I know of cases where the War Trade Department have asked exporters to give them a guarantee that certain articles which have been exported for Russia have got through to Russia. The merchants have in all cases endeavoured to assist the Government, and have given them bills of lading and actually receipts from Russia for the goods. In fact, there is no way for goods, such as tea and other things mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Dalziel), getting to Russia except through the Scandinavian countries. Therefore, it is possible that the increase of exports from this country may be accounted for by these exports reaching Russia and neutral countries with which we have no objection, to trade, and they may not go to an enemy destination at all. I think the Government ought to come in and say to their commercial agents at the Embassies, "we know from our Customs that these things have been exported, and we want to be satisfied that they have gone through Scandinavia to Russia and not to an enemy country." Is the Danish Government a party to this Agreement with Denmark? [HON. MEMBERS: NO!"] Hon. Members say no. I want the Noble Lord to tell us. If the Danish Government is not a party to this Agreement, why should the British Government enter into an Agreement with private persons in Denmark? There are hints that there is a good deal of business jealousy entering into the matter. In the case of the Netherlands Overseas Trust fair play is not being given to our trade. These are matters of great importance, and if the Noble Lord can give us some information in regard to them it will be received with the greatest interest.

I am in this difficulty with regard to the Debate, a difficulty of which the right hon. Gentleman who raised the Debate was perfectly well aware, that he knew from statements made by myself and my right hon. Friend that it was quite impossible for me with due regard to the public interest to make any effective reply to him. Had he not known that I think that he would not have made the speech which he has made.

No, I will not. I stated perfectly clearly after consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary for State that it was quite impossible for me to inform the House of the terms of this Agreement. Much as I desired personally to do so, and anxious as I should have been personally to have laid the whole matter before the House, I was informed, and I was convinced myself, that it would not be in consonance with my public duty to do so, and so I informed the House. I shall abide by that decision. I am quite aware that the right hon. Gentleman and his friends outside can have a very plausible cry against the Government that they are afraid to lay this Agreement on the Table of the House. I shall expect it from the hon. Member for Mansfield (Sir A. Markham), who mistakes bluster for patriotism—

But so far as I am concerned, as long as I have the honour to occupy any position, however humble, in the Government, I will not in obedience to clamour, either in Parliament or outside it, do what I do not believe to be in the public interest. Therefore it is quite impossible for me, and the right hon. Gentleman ought to know it— if he did not know it I am sorry—to give an adequate reply to the questions that he put. The objections which existed a few days ago to a frank statement of the terms of this Agreement still persist. Until they are removed I cannot, I am not able, I should not be performing my duty either as a man or as a Minister if I were to try to give to the right hon. Gentleman a full answer to his inquiry.

There are some questions which I am able to answer and those I shall certainly reply to. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Lough) asked me whether the Agreement was made with the Danish Government or with traders. I will say, quite frankly, that it was not made with the Danish Government. It was made with two bodies of traders. That is perfectly true and I am entitled to go as far as that, because I think that there is no concealment of that statement. The hon. Member for Mansfield had some suggestion that this agreement was due to the malign influence of Lord Haldane. I think that I am perfectly safe in saying that Lord Haldane has never seen this Agreement, has had no share, direct or indirect, in this Agreement, and has been in no way the inspirer of this Agreement. I wish to say, quite frankly and definitely, that though my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is responsible for this, as he is responsible for everything done by the Foreign Office, yet, subject to that, I am responsible for this Agreement. I personally sanctioned it. I personally accept it. I believe it to be in the interests of the country. I believe that it carries out the policy of the Government with regard to the blockade of Germany, and I abide by it as an excellent Agreement and I shall be in no way ashamed of the provisions of the Agreement when they can be made public. As far as I am concerned, that is the position. I do not wish in any way to shirk or run away from responsibility for that position.

I cannot say any more than that about the terms of this Agreement. All I can say is that the policy of the Government is the same as the policy of the Foreign Office and the policy of the country, namely, to do everything we can to bring this War to a successful conclusion. The suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman who began the Debate that there was somebody in the Foreign Office who desired to let these Germans off lightly is absolutely without foundation. There is no truth in that whatever. This Agreement, in common with every other step in the Blockade of Germany, has been solely with a desire to make that blockade as effective as it can be made. It has been concluded, and the terms, have been arranged in such a way as. to produce the most effective blockade with the greatest freedom to neutral trade that can possibly be devised. That has always been the object of the Government and it has always been the object of the Foreign Office. I know it has been said by, I think, the hon. Member for Mansfield, that the Government have not enforced the Order in Council, because they have not put into the Prize Court every cargo of every ship that has been stopped by the Fleet. I do not know whether the hon. Member really meant that, but I venture to say it is the most absurd and ridiculous suggestion ever made. You cannot take a cargo into the Prize Court unless there is some ground for doing so, or unless it is believed that the cargo is being taken to an enemy destination. The only ground on which you can take a cargo, or any part of a cargo, into the Prize Court is that if there is any kind of a primâ facie case to believe that the cargo is destined for Germany. Then-it is taken into a Prize Court and proceedings taken upon it. The suggestion that the Government has been anxious to spare Germany, and has not preserved its belligerent rights to the best of its power, or has been in any way-anxious to hamper and fetter the Navy, is a suggestion which I venture to resent very strongly on behalf of myself and on behalf of the Government. There is no trace of the suggestion in our proceedings. As to this Agreement, for my part I believe it to be an excellent one. I cannot go into its terms. I regret very much that I cannot. There is nothing I am afraid of discussing in its terms when I am able to do so. I am perfectly prepared to defend every one of its provisions as soon as I am able to lay those provisions before the House, but I think there should be extended to the Government in this respect that confidence, without which it is impossible for a Government to carry on its duties, and absolutely impossible for the country to win the War.

I have no doubt that, if Members had taken the trouble to stay, they would have been highly edified if not amused at the attitude taken up by the Under-Secretary. He has certainly given us an example of fortiter in re and not suaviter in modo in his answer with reference to the specific Agreement. In the first place, he says that this Agreement cannot be divulged in the public interest. May I ask him whether he can tell us at what time he will be able to publish it? Will the Noble Lord indicate the time that it is likely to be given? Absolutely no hope is held out that it can be divulged before the end of the War. Having established the proposition that it is to be indefinitely withheld, there are one or two points I wish to put. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) put a very definite question, which he avoided, namely, Was this submitted to the Cabinet and approved by the Cabinet? He evaded another question: Was it submitted to a meeting of private Unionist-Members of Parliament this afternoon? [An HON. MEMBER: "It was."] I assume then that the answer to both of these questions is in the affirmative, that, first of all, it was not submitted to the Cabinet; that it is purely a Foreign Office document, representing only the policy of the Foreign Office; and, in the second place, that instead of submitting it to the House of Commons it is submitted to a hole-and-corner meeting of Unionist Members.

That is not an answer to my question. The Noble Lord knows that perfectly well. He is a skilled cross-examiner, and he knows when a witness evades a question. I know perfectly well how he would deal with the witness who answered him as he has answered me to night. Those are two points that are established, not submitted to the Cabinet but submitted to a private meeting of Unionist Members of Parliament to-day. I am not going to go into the Prime Minister's speech. He told us he was going to break through the web of juridical niceties, and that we were going to have a broad and definite statement. Apparently it is to be narrowed by secret agreements. After all, why is this to be withheld from us?

It is an Agreement with two private associations of traders in Denmark, and I am told that anybody can become a member of one of these associations on payment of a paltry subscription, so that any German resident in Copenhagen can become a member of one of those societies and obtain the full terms of this Agreement. The only people who are to be kept in the dark are the people of this country over whose interests the Government are boundless trustees. Yes, we cannot wonder that there is' some suspicion about the trustees. Statements have been made that important provisions of this agreement have already been published in Germany. Articles have appeared in several newspapers—one in the "Evening Standard" last night, and another in the "Morning Post" this morning—indicating the disquietude of friendly Danes, not simply British subjects, but the friendly Dane in Denmark is worried because British policy is being turned into a joke. We are becoming the laughing stock of these neutrals. The House of Commons is to be dumb. All information is to be refused to it. The Noble Lord can come here and he can brow-beat Members as he chooses, but I tell him to-night that the day is not far off when this policy will no longer hold good with the people of this country.

As a humble Member of this House, I have heard this Debate with astonishment. I have heard the Government state several times that it was impossible to make the terms of this agreement public, having regard to the public interest, and yet I have heard hon. Members of this House to-night insist on trying to drag out the facts, and to do precisely the thing which the Government of this country think would be contrary to the interests of the country, and therefore an unpatriotic thing to do. I do not believe that the House of Commons or the country will tolerate the conduct of hon. Members who set themselves up to do that which the Government, on its responsibility, has declared to be an unpatriotic thing.

It being half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of 3rd February.

Adjourned at Half after Eleven o'clock, till Monday next, 13th December.

Petitions Presented

The following Petitions were Presented and Ordered to lie upon the Table:—

Tuesday

Envoy Extraordinary to the Pope in Rome,—Petition from Scotland, for recall.

Finance (No. 3) Bill,—Petition from City of London, for alteration.

National Health Insurance Commission (Scotland),—Petition from Edinburgh, against transfer of the Scottish Insurance Commission from Scotland.