House of Commons
Wednesday, December 15, 1915
East India (Loans Raised in India)
Copy presented of Return of all Loans raised in India, chargeable on the Revenues of India, outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ending on the 30th September, 1915, etc. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 402.]
Civil Servants and the New Recruiting Scheme
Copy presented of Treasury Circular, dated 30th November, 1915, as to the position of Civil Servants in connection with the new Recruiting Scheme [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Army (Pay, Non-Effective Pay, and Allowances)
Copy presented of List of Exceptions to the Army Regulations as to Pay, Non-Effective Pay, and Allowances sanctioned during the year 1914–15 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Lunacy
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House.—Copy of Return of the Lord Chancellor of the number of Visits made, the number of Patients seen, and the number of Miles travelled by the Visitors of Lunatics, between 1st April, 1915, and the 30th September, 1915 [by Act].
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Defence of London
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can, with a view to reassure public opinion, state whether the provisions for the defence of London and the Eastern counties against hostile aircraft have been proved to be satisfactory?
I cannot add anything to the statements already made by my right hon. Friend the First Lord on this subject, both in reply to questions and also in the discussion on the Vote of Credit on 11th November.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there have been seven or eight abortive raids since the 13th October?
That does not arise.
Has anybody been appointed to succeed Sir Percy Scott?
I submit, with great respect, that that does not arise.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will arrange that when the Anti-Aircraft (London) Corps is transferred to the War Department the blue uniforms now worn by officers and men in this service may be retained?
So far as I am aware, no alteration of uniform is contemplated.
asked whether Sir Percy Scott is still in command of the anti-aircraft defences of London; if not, when did he vacate that position; if he is still in command; when is it proposed that his retirement should take effect; and whether a full statement can be made upon the impending changes in this service?
It has been decided that the defence of London against hostile air attack is to be taken over by the War Office. That transfer, it is anticipated, will take place shortly.
As regards Sir Percy Scott, who is at present in charge of the gunnery defence of London, the question of his continuance in that work would be one for determination when the transfer takes place. But, pending such transfer, Sir Percy Scott remains in his present post.
Will the transfer be of such, a kind that this force will be loaned to the War Office, or will they be placed under the discipline of the Army Act, instead of being, as they now are, under the Naval Discipline Act?
That is an administrative question which my hon. Friend had better put on the Paper.
Does it not arise directly out of this question?
asked the Undersecretary of State for War under whose immediate control the Anti-Aircraft (London) Corps now is; and what officer is charged with the duties for which Admiral Sir Percy Scott was responsible?
The Anti-Aircraft Corps is at this moment under the control of the Admiralty; and as regards the second part of the question, Admiral Sir Percy Scott remains in charge of the gunnery defence of London. My right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty has just given a reply in this sense. When the corps has been placed at the disposal of the Army Council the control over it will be exercised by the Council through the officer who will be in charge of it.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say who will succeed Admiral Sir Percy Scott? Has any decision been arrived at on that point?
I think I indicated that he might not be available for this duty, but the matter is still under consideration.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that only two days ago he said Sir Percy Scott would not be in charge?
I have just said that I did say that, but the matter is still under consideration.
Why could not the right hon. Gentleman have said that two days ago?
asked whether it is proposed to issue complete new uniforms to men of the Anti-Aircraft (London) Corps when they pass under War Department control; and whether these men will have to be enlisted in order to bring them under the Army Act?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and as regards the second it will not be necessary to enlist into the Army any naval personnel whom the Admiralty may place at the disposal of the Army Council for the purpose of manning anti-aircraft defences.
Enemy Submarines Sunk Oe Captured
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been directed to the statement that seventy-eight enemy submarines have been sunk or captured by the British Fleet since the commencement of the War; and whether he is now in a position to give the House and the country the correct figures?
I cannot add anything to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the First Lord to the hon. Member for Birmingham North on. 30th September last, of which I will send my hon. Friend a copy.
I will not trouble the right hon. Gentleman.
Forces in Persia
asked what information the Foreign Office has and can make public regarding the forces at or near Hamadan which are believed to be commanded by German officers?
I have received but little reliable information as to the nature and strength of the force to which the hon. Member alludes. I understand, however, that it consists of some 8,000 irregulars and 3,000 revolted gendarmes, and that it has an adequate supply of rifles, machine guns, and ammunition.
Massacre of Armenians
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official knowledge of the number of Armenians massacred; whether any communications have passed between the United States Government and the British Government on the subject; and, if so, can he give any information to the House on these matters?
I am afraid that, owing to the circumstances of these massacres, it is impossible to obtain any official estimate of the number killed; nor have we received from or sent to the United States Government any communication on the subject. It is impossible, I fear, usefully to say anything further about these terrible events.
Greece (King Constantine's Representations)
asked whether King Constantine has ever addressed to the British Government any representation of the position of Greece to the effect that the Balkan policy of the Allies was not definite, and that, supposing that Greece had joined the Alies and that subsequently the Allies had decided to reduce their action or to retire altogether, the position of Greece might be precarious, and that he feared that in those circumstances Greece might become a second Belgium; and, if so, what reassurances, if any, were given to Greece?
No representations have been made to His Majesty's Government in this sense.
In view of the fact that it has been revealed in the Greek Chamber that the Minister of Munitions carried on the negotiations with the Greek Government, how can the Noble Lord give any guarantee that dispatches have or have not passed between the Governments?
I can only say what I have said—that no representations have been made to His Majesty's Government in this sense.
What is the channel of communication between this Government and Greece? Does King Constantine represent Greece in this sense?
The channels between this country and Greece are the ordinary diplomatic channels—the representatives of this country in Greece and the representatives of Greece in this country.
Is the Noble Lord able to say that no other channels than the ordinary diplomatic channels of the Foreign Office have been used for diplomatic communications?
There are no other possible channels between the Government of this country and the Government of any other country than those which are established by diplomatic usage.
Does not the Noble Lord see that he is evading a clear question?
Cotton Waste
asked whether cotton waste has been declared contraband of war; and, if not, why this has not been done?
I would refer the hon. Member to the Royal Proclamation dated 20th August, 1915, and published in the "London Gazette" of 21st August, by which cotton waste as well as raw cotton was declared absolute contraband of war.
Dardanelles Operations
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, at the time he made the public announcement on 9th September to the effect that the Dardanelles operations were within a little of a great success which would have an enormous effect in all parts of the world, he had any official information at his disposal which has been withheld from the House; and, if so, has he any objection to laying the same upon the Table?
No, Sir, I had not, and did not pretend to have, any official information bearing on the subject beyond that which was available to every person in the country. The observation quoted was perhaps literally true. But, unfortunately, it conveyed an impression which, to my profound regret, shared, I am sure, by the hon. Member, has not been justified by the event.
Colonel Wynne Edwards (Speech at Rhyl)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether Colonel T. A. Wynne Edwards is in command of the 21st Battalion of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers now stationed at Conway; whether he is on active service and draws full pay; whether he is aware that on 30th November last Colonel Edwards addressed a public meeting at Rhyl and moved a resolution calling for the repeal of the Welsh Church Act in a controversial speech; whether Colonel Edwards's action was in contravention of the Service regulations; and whether, having regard to the effects such action will have at this time when Welsh Nonconformists have done so much for recruiting, official notice will be taken of this officer's conduct?
The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. I understand that Colonel Wynne Edwards attended a conference in connection with Church matters, held at Rhyl, and addressed the conference. In doing so he committed no breach of the King's Regulations, but the Army Council do not consider it to be in the interests of the Service that officers in command of troops should express their opinions in public on political questions of a controversial nature, especially when the matter discussed is one which closely affects all those serving under them. It is proposed to inform Colonel Wynne Edwards accordingly.
Is it not the case that Colonel Edwards had resigned his position in the Army before he made this speech?
I was not aware of that.
Recruiting
Lord Derby's Scheme
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the way in which Lord Derby's scheme has been worked in the agricultural counties of Wales, that its details have never been explained in Welsh either in print or on the platform, that some counties had only two attestation offices, and some of them were in charge of monoglot Englishmen, that in many instances persons had to travel thirty or forty miles in order to attest, and, if rejected, they received no allowance for expenses; and whether, under these circumstances, he will take steps to extend the time for and amend the methods of recruiting in these rural areas?
I am informed that the details of the scheme have been published in Welsh. I should regret if the supply of polyglot Englishmen in suitable numbers and at the right places has been found insufficient, but I have not had information to that effect before I read my hon. Friend's question. Perhaps he will be good enough to send me details. The decisions which have been taken from time to time as regards extending the time limit are already public property, and I am not aware of any intention to extend it either generally, or partially, as my hon. Friend suggests.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why the whole of the men at Woolwich Arsenal of military age have been attested under Lord Derby's scheme; and whether he is aware that their doing so has resulted in a great loss of time?
These men were attested because, after discussion with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Munitions, it was decided that attestation was the best course. I am sure that he would not have concurred if this had involved any appreciable loss of time, and I am certainly unaware that there has been any great loss of time.
Why were these men attested? Was it so much window-dressing, and for the purpose of showing numbers?
Oh no, Sir, the object undoubtedly was that the men might be considered to be members of the Army, if and when the necessity arose.
Were each of these men paid 2s. 9d. on attestation?
No, Sir, I think not.
Is it not the case that in other cases where the men have been starred or otherwise required to go to necessary trades that they have been paid?
I understand—I do not know if I am wrong—that ordinary persons who attested, and have been put with Reserve B have not received any such payments.
Oh, yes, they have.
I dare say I am wrong in that; I must fortify myself.
The right hon. Gentleman might consult his colleagues in the Government.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that large rural areas were for attestation purposes placed under the control of one officer; that men, after travelling long distances to recruiting centres on two or more occasions, were unable to attest owing to the lack of forms and the absence of recruiting officers; and whether such men will be given an opportunity of attesting?
It would assist my Noble Friend, Lord Derby, if my hon. Friend would be kind enough to inform me in detail of the localities he has in mind, and an endeavour will be made to meet such cases satisfactorily.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War, adverting to the circulars issued under Lord Derby's recruiting campaign that every man who intends applying for exemption must first be attested and placed in his group, will he say why the word exemption has been used, seeing that the local tribunals under the instructions which have been issued have no power to exempt an attested man, their powers being confined to placing him in a later group?
My hon. Friend is, of course, right in stating that the powers of the local tribunals are confined to postponement. If the expression "exemption" has been used in any case, I think the general context will make the meaning quite clear.
East Lancashire Regiment (Under Age Recruit)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War if he will reconsider his refusal to discharge Private No. 21,361, C. Company, 10th Battalion East Lancashire Regiment, who applied for enlistment at Nelson on 22nd September last, and stated his age as sixteen and was told to come next day and say he was nineteen, which he did without the knowledge or consent of his mother, a widow, whose main support this boy was; and if he is aware that the mother made application for the boy's discharge before he reached the age of seventeen and was put off by various excuses until the boy had turned seventeen, when she was informed that the discharge could not be granted as the boy was over seventeen?
My hon. Friend flatters me by thinking that I can carry the details of each soldier's case in my head. I am having inquiry made and will inform my hon. Friend of the result.
Conscientious Objection to Oath
asked whether men joining the Army who have a conscientious objection to taking the oath are allowed to make an affirmation?
The answer is in the affirmative.
Will the hon. Gentleman make that generally known, because during the last fortnight a great number of men have not been allowed to join the Army on account of their refusal to take the oath?
I am surprised to hear that; I will do my best to promulgate it; it has been well known in the Army now for a number of years.
Officers (Temporary Commissions)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether there are officers holding temporary commissions whose intellectual abilities are of the highest order and quite equal to those of officers in the Regular Army; whether he will consider the advantage to the State if the former were given equal opportunities of being trained for and holding Staff appointments; whether such opportunities are withheld from them on the plea that Staff appointments should be reserved for Regular officers; and whether he will make it known throughout the Army that recommendations for Staff appointments are to be made solely for merit and that no preference is to be given to any officer merely on the ground that he holds a commission in the Regular Army?
I have already dealt with all the points raised in this question in the answers I gave to the hon. Member for the North Bradford Division on the 25th November and the 6th December. No one doubts that intellectual abilities of a very high order are to be found amongst officers holding temporary commissions. I have already stated to the House that 50 per cent. of the officers now being trained at home in Staff duties are taken from the New Armies. To this I would add that while no preference will be given to any officer merely on the ground that he holds a commission in the Regular Army, full account will be taken of the fact that officers who have been members of the military profession for many years should possess, and generally do possess, scientific and technical knowledge which is of course not at the disposal of officers who have come to the Army from other professions.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that very large numbers of young officers consider that the War Office is rather a rigid kind of trade unionism, with a secretary who is a museum of prejudices in favour of the Regular Army?
Soldiers on Leave (Temporary Lodgings in London)
asked the Tinder-Secretary of State for War the result of the negotiations for obtaining a suitable building to provide our soldiers with lodging when detained in London on their way to and from the front, and whether, in view of the near approach of Christmas, every effort will be made to" secure the necessary accommodation before then?
Negotiations to secure a suitable building are still in progress, and every effort is being and will be made to secure accommodation at the earliest possible date. I will inform my hon. Friend of the result as soon as possible.
Connaught Rangers (Recruiting Tour, Ireland)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War the total cost of the twenty-four men of the Connaught Rangers, with seven motor-cars, in their last recruiting tour throughout county Leitrim, from the 20th to 29th November, inclusive; whether Recruiting Lieutenant O'Donnell spoke at all their meetings; and whether he will state to what the failure to get one recruit is attributed?
I recognise the interest the hon. Gentleman takes in all matters connected with recruiting for His Majesty's Forces, but I am afraid that the first part of his question could not be answered with precision without further inquiry. I am not aware whether there was any of the meetings during the tour referred to at which Lieutenant O'Donnell did not speak, and as regards the last part of the question I could not pronounce an opinion without a more intimate acquaintance with the psychology of the inhabitants of the county of Leitrim than any I can claim.
I will put down a question for Monday!
I am afraid I shall not have time by then to pay my visit to Leitrim.
Tuesday then!
Officer Charged With Drunkenness
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the case of Second-Lieutenant J. R. Rowley, 3/4th Northumberland Artillery, who was brought before the Clerkenwell police magistrate on 6th December charged with drunkenness and molesting a lady passenger on the train between Bedford and London, has been brought to his notice; why this officer was handed over to the civil authorities by the station staff officer at St. Pancras instead of being dealt with by the military authorities; what punishment, if any, was awarded to this officer by the magistrate; and if it is proposed to take any further action in the matter?
Yes, Sir, my attention had been drawn to this case which is already the subject of inquiry, and suitable action will be taken.
Irish Guards (Sergeant's Discharge)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether a sergeant, thirty-six years of age, was recently discharged from the Irish Guards on completing sixteen years' service with the Colours and in the Special Reserve, notwithstanding his willingness to continue in his late regiment and that he is of excellent character and physique; whether it is the policy of the Army Council not to retain the services of suitable time-expired non-commissioned officers except as reenlisted privates; and, if so, what are the grounds on which such a policy is followed?
This will be inquired into by the War Office if my hon. Friend will communicate to me the name of the sergeant to whom he refers.
May I take it that if the facts are as stated, this non-commissioned officer will be reinstated in his former placed?
I am afraid I cannot go so far as that. I say it will be inquired into.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the policy of the War Office in regard to non-commissioned officers whose time is up; will they be reenlisted as privates or retained if suitable?
Of course it will depend altogether upon the particular case. A sergeant or non-commissioned officer in the Army, who is a suitable person, will undoubtedly go on in the Army; he will be retained in that rank.
Mesopotamia (Sir J. Nixon's Force)
asked the Secretary of State for India if he will state what is the latest information in his possession with respect to the operations of Sir J. Nixon's force; and whether, in view of the daily bulletins issued by the enemy, he can arrange for a British official communiqué on the operations in Mesopotamia to be issued to the British public daily or at much more frequent intervals than at present?
I will publish from time to time any information which can properly be given. Telegrams received by me to-day from Sir John Nixon report that there was heavy musketry fire for an hour on the 12th instant, but that the Turks did not attempt any advance. A heavy attack on a village on the right bank was repulsed. On the 13th all was quiet. Reinforcements continue to be sent up stream as they arrive.
Why have we been getting our chief information upon Mesopotamia from Turkish sources: we get far more information in the newspapers from Constantinople, emanating from Germany, than what has been issued by the India Office?
In so far as that is the case, it is because I am unwilling to give the House information as to the accuracy of which I cannot vouch. The information supplied from the sources to which reference is made by the hon. Baronet is frequently grossly inaccurate.
asked the Secretary of State for India what means were at his disposal for ascertaining the strength of the Turkish forces at Bagdad; whether the Foreign Office and the India Office were in close touch with each other on the subject; whether any explanation can be given for the British Expedition advancing so far in Mesopotamia with inadequate forces; and whether he has conveyed to General Sir J. Nixon and General Townshend the appreciation of His Majesty's Government of the bravery, skill, and endurance shown by all ranks engaged in the Expedition?
It would not be in the public interest to answer the first and third paragraphs of the question at the present time. The answer to the second and fourth is in the affirmative.
War Pensions
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is now in a position to give the House complete information as to how war pensions should be applied for; and whether he can arrange for the publication of the same for all services in some handy form?
I have had prepared, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty, a short statement which shall be printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I hope that it will be of assistance to hon. Members.
Can my hon. Friend see that this is published in the newspaper Press so that the dependants of soldiers all over the country may see it?
I dare say the Press will take notice of my reply.
Army Service Corps (Colonial Allowance)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state whether members of the Army Service Corps are entitled to the Colonial allowance when they have been stationed in Egypt for more than a fortnight; and if this allowance is paid to all troops, or if it is paid only to men of warrant rank or above; and, if so, why?
Yes, Sir; the Army Service Corps is treated in the same way as other troops. Officers and warrant officers draw the allowance; the other ranks are provided for in kind.
War Loan
Working-Class Contributions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the addition of a representative of the private retail traders to the Committee appointed to investigate the question of obtaining contributions to the War Loan from the working classes, in view of the numbers of such traders who are in daily touch with the classes concerned?
In view of the large size of the Committee as at present constituted, I fear I could not see my way to add to its numbers. The Committee will, however, be very glad to receive a statement of the views of retail traders and all other persons or associations interested in this question.
Scrip Vouchers
asked if the 5s. War Loan vouchers will continue to be issued at the post offices, now that many small investors are beginning to appreciate the advantages of saving by this means, and having regard to the fact that these vouchers will form a convenient medium for making small presents at Christmas time and for the investment of small sums then?
The popularity of the system of scrip vouchers was not such as to justify its extension after the date originally contemplated for its ending.
Can my right hon. Friend say when he is going to issue instructions as to what is to be done with 5s. vouchers, held by a great many people, which do not make up scrip for £5? What are these people to do with the 5s. vouchers?
They can pay them into the Post Office Savings Bank now, and open an account there and draw out the amount.
Will they get the same amount of interest?
They carry the usual Post Office Savings Bank interest from the time when they are paid in.
Post Office Savings Bank (Kate of Interest)
asked whether the Government intend to increase the rate of interest to be allowed on deposits in the Trustee and Post Office Savings Banks?
As stated in the House of Commons, on Monday last, this question is being considered by the Committee recently appointed to investigate the question of making the savings of small investors available for loans to the Government for war purposes.
May I ask whether there is any chance of knowing when the Committee will report on this matter?
If my hon. Friend will give me notice of the question I will inquire of the Committee.
Sale of Securities in North America
asked if the Treasury has given permission to the London Stock Exchange to sell in North America securities which have been in the possession of persons in allied or neutral countries since the beginning of the War; and, if so, why neutral countries should be included in such permission, seeing that this must entail the risk of some of the money realised going to enemy countries, however carefully it may be controlled?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, the hon. Member will realise that in any case there is nothing to prevent neutral holders from selling direct to America. The facilities now offered are confined to securities which have not been in enemy ownership since the beginning of the War and have been in physical possession in allied or neutral countries during the same period. These facilities secure for this country any income that may be earned by British brokers acting as agents for sales, and have the advantage of assisting to maintain the position of London as the central clearing house for exchange operations generally.
Will it be by any means possible to ascertain whether securities which come, say, from Holland will not be in the possession of Germans?
I would not like to say that it would be possible to be perfectly certain in every case, but there will be no difficulty in sending the securities direct from Holland to the United States.
Munitions
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, under the new Order of the Central Control Board, a householder ordering a cask of beer one day, receiving it next day, and paying for it the day after instead of enclosing payment with the order, becomes liable to imprisonment for six months with hard labour and a fine of £100; and, if so, whether the principle of making credit illegal is to be extended in other directions in the commercial and industrial life of the country?
I am afraid that I cannot accept the responsibility of giving legal opinions on hypothetical cases.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that such cases have occurred, and that persons have been advised by their legal advisers that this is the result of the existing law; and whether he thinks it possible to maintain such a state of affairs?
If the hon. Gentleman had told me that there had been a fine for such conditions, I should have been very much surprised indeed. It is possible to conceive anomalous cases in the working of every law, but the hon. Gentleman must assume that the magistrates will administer the law with some amount of common sense.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether magistrates are not bound to administer the law, and whether he is aware that the law is so interpreted, absurd as it may seem?
No, but if the hon. Member tells me there is a single case where the law has been interpreted in this sense, I shall be glad if he will call my attention to it.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman does not see that the law being thus, persons employed in perfectly proper transactions are put to this inconvenience in order to escape the effects of the law?
asked the Minister of Munitions if the Central Control Board have agreed to suspend the operation of Article 4 ( e ) in the provincial as well as in the London areas, having regard to the fact that this provision causes even more inconvenience and expense to customers of breweries and wine merchants in the country districts than in London, where the Order has been temporarily withheld?
The answer to the question is in the negative.
asked on what principle or facts the Board of Control (Liquor Traffic) acted when they decided to open public-houses from 5 a.m. to 7 a.m. in the dock area, but refused to extend this privilege to Shoreditch, Islington, Hampstead, and other places; whether he can state the exact numbers of the persons engaged in the production and transport of munitions and war material in the boroughs of Poplar and West Ham compared "with those in the three above mentioned boroughs; and why, if the above opening hours do not interfere with efficiency in West Ham and Poplar, they were held to do so in Shoreditch, Islington, or Hampstead?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which was given to the hon. and gallant Member for Mile End on the 13th December. I am unable to supply the statistics asked for in the second part of the question.
asked what trade union organisations were consulted in the London area before the new Closing Order was made; what was the character of the evidence tendered by those bodies; and whether they expressed a desire for the restrictions?
As I have previously stated, the Central Control Board inform me that the London Order was made after the usual local conference (at which the London Trades Council was represented), discussions with representative deputations, and very full consideration of evidence, both oral and written. I am assured that the Board have always been anxious to hear all evidence by responsible representatives, notably from those representing trades unions. I do not think that I can usefully summarise the evidence presented by such organisations in relation to the case of the London area.
May I ask whether in all cases the Board of Control consulted the local authorities before issuing the Order?
I am assured that they do. I asked specifically, and I was told that they did.
I can give the right hon. Gentleman two cases in which I know they have not.
Does the right hon. Gentleman see his way to publish the evidence?
That is in the answer I have given.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the statement by Lord d'Abernon that the Order was not made upon evidence, but upon a letter from the right hon. Gentleman himself?
I can hardly think the chairman of the Board could have said that it was not done on evidence. It must have been a misreport or the hon. Member must have misread it.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to Lord d'Abernon's statement?
No, I have not seen it.
asked the Minister of Munitions, seeing that the powers conferred on the Board of Control (Liquor Traffic) are solely concerned with the efficiency of labour in certain munition producing and transport areas, whether he can state the exact number of convictions for drunkenness of men actually employed in munition producing or war transport in the London area for six weeks before the No-Treating Order for the occupations of the men; whether discriminating police inquiries were made to distinguish if these men were employed on Government work or on similar work for ordinary commercial firms; and what proportion the number of convicted munition and transport workers bore for each separate week to the total number engaged in these classes of work?
The statistics suggested by my hon. Friend are not available, but careful inquiry was directed to the point whether restrictions on drink would improve efficiency of output, and the result, so far as experience goes, has fully justified the course adopted.
asked whether, having regard to the terms of appointment of the Board of Control (Liquor Traffic), the licensing justices and the London County Council, who were consulted at the conference at the Middlesex Guildhall, on 1st October last, respecting the proposed Orders for the London area, were carefully reminded that evidence could only be accepted which either bore direct relationship to the production and transport of munitions and war material or indirectly affected the same; whether, as a fact, the evidence of the licensing justices was almost wholly remote from, this issue; and whether the chairman of the London County Council stated that the metropolitan working class had exhibited remarkable restraint under every temptation of long hours and high wages?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second in the negative. As regards the third part, I have no official information, but have no reason to doubt the fact.
Controlled Establishments (Rules)
asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that the various sections of workmen employed in the engineering trades at Sheffield are taking objection to the rules posted up by employers at various controlled establishments under the Munitions of War Act; if he is aware that such rules provide for heavy fines upon workmen for trivial offences; and whether he will consider the advisability of drafting model rules to govern conditions at all controlled establishments?
Complaints with regard to the rules mentioned by my hon. Friend were brought to my notice in October. Since then I understand that the rules of which complaint was made have been materially modified. I may also state that I propose to amend the Munitions (Ordering of Work) Regulations, 1915, so as to provide that the only rules in respect of which proceedings can be taken before a munitions tribunal shall be rules approved by the Ministry of Munitions.
Supply of War Material
The following questions stood in the name of Commander WEDGWOOD:
41. To ask the Minister of Munitions whether the Stokes gun has yet been supplied to the Army at the front; if not, whether the shells are already completed or still awaiting inspection from Woolwich; and whether the fuses are being manufactured?
42. To ask the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware of the demand from the front for 2-inch trench-mortars; whether the supply of bombs and fuses for the same is yet ample; and, if not, what steps are being taken to hasten manufacture?
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if an answer to these questions is not considered in the public interest?
I think if my hon. and gallant Friend will again consider the character of the questions he will see that, if questions of this kind were answered, undoubtedly it would be giving information to the enemy which it would be undesirable to publish, and if I begin to answer questions of this kind there is no end to similar questions which might be asked. Might I just say to my hon. and gallant Friend that I can give him all the information he asks for privately? I shall be very glad to give him all the information myself.
I want to hurry up the Department.
Gratuitous Service
asked the Minister of Munitions if he can give the names of the persons who gratituously are giving the whole of their time to the service of the Ministry of Munitions; and whether he wishes to add any names to the list recently published?
The list referred to in the question included the names of all persons who are giving the whole of their time gratuitously to the service of the Ministry with the exception of two who, I regret to say, were inadvertently omitted, namely, Mr. Alexander McDowell and Mr. W. Weir.
May I ask whether that list also included the names of people who are only giving partial time to the Ministry?
It the hon. Gentleman will call my attention to any specific case I will let him know.
Will my right hon. Friend say whether one of the Parliamentary Secretaries is refusing the salary voted by Parliament?
I do not know that.
It has been published in a list.
Medals
asked the Minister of Munitions what arrangements have been made as to the issue of medals to men engaged on munitions work?
I hope shortly to appoint a small Committee to deal with the question.
Are we likely to hear the result of their deliberations at an early date?
Double Subsistence Allowances
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the urgent need for national economy, he will direct an investigation into the way in which public money is being wasted by employing men in munitions work away from their homes in munitions and other factories from which workmen of similar class have been enlisted, thus entailing in some cases a double subsistence allowance?
I see no reason for a special investigation. I am fully aware of the desirability, both in the interests of national economy and for other reasons, of employing munition workers so far as possible near to their homes. It is unfortunately true that numbers of skilled workmen required for the production of munitions have enlisted, particularly in the early stages of the War, and these had to be replaced by workmen drawn from other parts of the country. Special steps are being taken to withdraw from the Colours skilled munition workers, and where possible these are returned to their old firms, having regard to the relative urgency of the work on which these firms are engaged. Unfortunately many cannot be so recalled, either because they have been victims of casualties or are serving far away from this country, or for other causes.
Wet Canteens
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, having regard to the Report of the Health of Munition Workers' Committee that there may be a case for the establishment of wet canteens in certain districts and in special circumstances where alcoholic beverages may be obtained, he will make a commencing experiment at once by introducing good, ripe, wholesome English beer such as contains only a small proportion of alcohol?
The question is under careful consideration. I understand that several firms are engaged in experiment in the production of wholesome and palatable beer of low alcoholic content—in some cases as low as under 2 per cent. of proof.
Gas (Reduction of Power)
asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that the War Office has notified local authorities that, owing to the demand for benzol and toluol for the manufacture of explosives, it has been found necessary to require gas undertakings throughout the Kingdom to extract these constituents from their gas, thereby in some cases affecting the illuminating power of the gas and its calorific power; if he is aware that the War Office have advised that the general public should do everything in their power to prevent attacks on gas undertakings owing to the possible deterioration of the gas supply, and that this can best be done by ceasing to test gas altogether or by preventing results of the test being made public; if he is aware that some few years ago the illuminating power of gas was reduced; if he is aware that if the gas tests are abolished by local authorities a greater amount of J impurities will pass through the gas mains; if he is aware that if the calorific power is reduced it will mean that more gas will have to be consumed for heating and cooking purposes at the cost of the general consumer; and if he intends taking action in the matter?
The requirement referred to was necessitated by paramount interests of national defence. I am advised that the effect on the calorific power of gas will be inappreciable, and in view of the greatly increased use of incandescent burners the effect on illumination will also be restricted. The conditions under which the gas companies have undertaken the operation at the urgent request of the Ministry are not such as to yield them any profit, so that I trust that the appeal made to the public authorities not to attribute blame to the gas companies for any slight inconvenience that may be caused to consumers may have general support, including that of my hon. Friend.
Army Dispatches (Payment of Members)
asked the Prime Minister whether he has now looked into the payment of Members of both Houses of Parliament who carry dispatches to and from the Army; and what he has determined regarding such salaries?
In future, if Members of either House of Parliament undertake these duties, it will be without remuneration.
British Expeditionary Forces
Higher Commands (Pending Changes)
asked the Prime Minister whether the selection of General Joffre by the French Government, as generalissimo of the French armies, in all the theatres of operations will necessitate any important changes in the higher commands of the British Forces; and, if so, can he inform the House what these changes will be?
Some changes are in course of being made, and will be announced almost immediately. They have no connection of any kind with the change which has been made by the French Government in the functions of General Joffre.
Questions
Balkans (Beitish Policy)
asked the Prime Minister whether the British policy in the Balkans is settled by the War Council or by the Cabinet as a whole; and whether he is in a position to give the House any definite information as to the present policy of the Government in the Near East?
The Cabinet is responsible for decisions affecting British policy; as regards the second part of the question I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend yesterday.
Anti-Conscription Meetings
asked the Prime Minister if he is now able to give the result of the inquiry made into the statements given by the hon. Member for Blackburn about the breaking up of anti-conscription meetings by the military; and can he give an answer to the other points raised on this matter?
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister answered part of the hon. Member's original question, as it affected the action of the Civic Authorities of Glasgow, on the 8th instant. He has requested me to state the result of the inquiries made as regards the incidents at Nelson, Halifax and Bradford.
I am informed that there was some disturbance of the meeting at Nelson. When the meeting had been in progress a short time a number of the members of the Home Defence Corps entered the room ostensibly to prevent the meeting taking place, four got on the platform and attempted to seize the speaker's manuscript. When the police arrived these four men were still upon the platform but they left upon police appearing and joined about eight other members of the corps, who were in the body of the Hall, and from there heckled the speakers until the close of the meeting at 10.15 p.m. The members of the corps were not in uniform. Two men were ejected from the meeting, but the police cannot say if they were mem- bers of the corps. The police are informed that a drill parade of the corps was assembling and some of the members asked permission of the commander to go to the meeting. The commander refused, but dismissed the drill parade. The bulk of the members did not go to the meeting, and their numbers were limited to about a dozen.
As regards Halifax, the following telegram has been received:—The Officer Commanding Administrative Centre states that his Territorial band attended and played at an excellent recruiting meeting in the public street outside the hall in Halifax where meeting against Conscription was held. The recruiting meeting was attended with good results. Some Territorial soldiers attended the meeting of their own free will and broke it up. It was not an organised interruption.
As regards Bradford, the following telegram has been received:—I have made full inquiries from Chief Constable, who informs me that a meeting to discuss Conscription was advertised to take place at the Mechanics' Institute on 2nd instant, but was not held owing to objection of owners of building. No soldiers were present. Soldiers have not interfered with any meetings at Bradford.
I can assure my hon. Friend that no concerted plot to prevent public discussion or interfere with meetings is known to me, and that there is none which has the approval of the military authorities. It will be seen from the reports which I have given to the House that in only one case of those mentioned by my hon. Friend was there interruption of a meeting by soldiers in uniform, and I am assured that that was not an organised interruption.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether a meeting against Conscription has the disapproval of the Government?
No, Sir, I never said anything of the kind.
Is it against the King's Regulations for soldiers in uniform to attend meetings and take part in the proceedings?
It is not against the King's Regulations for soldiers to attend meetings, but there are limits as to what a soldier should do at meetings, both by way of action and by speech.
Were not these soldiers free citizens who had joined the Forces for the purpose of the War, and why should they be debarred from expressing their opinion?
They were not debarred, but they ought not to break the King's Regulations.
Is any action taken against these soldiers if they contravene the King's Regulations?
No, Sir. There is no proof that they have contravened the King's Regulations.
Danish Trade Agreement
asked the Prime Minister whether any communications have been received from neutral powers regarding the preferential treatment arranged for certain traders in Denmark under the recent Agreement entered into by His Majesty's Government?
The answer is in the negative.
asked whether the views of the Board of Trade were specifically asked for and obtained before the Agreement with Danish trading interests was concluded; and can he say if the Board expressed its approval of the same?
The Agreement was carefully examined and unanimously approved by a Committee on which the Board of Trade were represented.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is able to assure the House that his declaration of 1st March to the effect that no commodities of any kind would be allowed to enter or leave enemy countries is fully adhered to in the Agreement recently concluded with certain trading interests in Denmark?
The recent Agreement with the two Danish associations was concluded with the express purpose of enforcing to the fullest possible extent the policy referred to by the hon. Member in the case of goods hitherto exported from Denmark to Germany either direct or viâ neighbouring neutral countries.
Has the Prime Minister taken into consideration whether it would be advisable to have a general statement as early as possible as to the policy of the Government?
The Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs has already given instructions for such a statement to be prepared. He will lay it on the Table of the House, and then we can consider whether a discussion is desirable or not.
Belgian Independence
asked whether the Government have considered the suggestion that Germany would restore complete independence to Belgium on condition that Britain would restore complete independence to Ireland; if so, what decision has-been arrived at; and, if not, when this opportunity of making good the promises to small nationalities will be availed of?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; the second part of the question does not therefore arise; the last part of the question I am afraid I do not understand.
Municipal Expenditure
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state the municipal expenditure per head of the population in the ten chief cities of Great Britain, and also the expenditure per head in the City of London and the average in the London; boroughs?
Figures on this subject will be found in Vol. I. of "Comparative Municipal-Statistics," published by the London County Council. For several reasons, some of which were indicated in my reply of the 8th instant, I do not think that any useful comparison can be made of the expenditure per head of London and other cities.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us the net results of the figures in the volume he referred to?
I think it would be misleading to do that. The general information can be obtained from the volume to which I have referred, but it would be misleading to give the return asked for by the hon. Member.
Is it not equally misleading when it is printed?
Restaurant Cars
asked (1) the number of trains with restaurant cars daily arriving at and departing from London; (2) approximately the number of men and number of women employed as cooks and as waiters in restaurant cars arriving at and departing from London; and (3) approximately the quantity of coal which it is needed to draw a railway dining car 100 miles; and whether, in view of economising our fuel supply and keeping the price of coal down, he proposes taking any steps to discontinue this unnecessary coal consumption?
I am unable to give the figures desired by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and as regards the suggested discontinuance of the running of restaurant cars, I can only refer him to the reply given on the 17th November to the hon. and gallant Member for the Wilton Division, of which I am sending him a copy.
Will it not be somewhat dangerous for women to be employed as cooks on restaurant cars?
Travelling Facilities (Fatal Accidents to Soldiers)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that insufficient travelling accommodation is provided on long-journey trains, and that frequently soldiers travelling are compelled to sleep in the corridors, to their own discomfort and other passengers' inconvenience; and whether, especially in view of the forthcoming seasonable traffic, he will make representations to the railway companies to provide ample and adequate travelling facilities?
My hon. Friend has called my attention to some statements which have been published in the Press on this subject, and I will bring the matter to the notice of the Railway Executive Committee. I have no reason to suppose however, that the railway companies are not fully alive to the importance of doing what is possible to provide adequate travelling facilities under the existing abnormal conditions of transport.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman do something to prevent the necessity of soldiers lying in the corridors for long journeys of eight hours' duration?
Arising out of that answer, may I say that I came up in a train from Sheffield [Interruption]—
asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of soldiers who have been killed by falling from trains in motion since the War broke out?
Ten fatal accidents of this nature have occurred to soldiers since the outbreak of the War.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is one of the results of soldiers being compelled to lie in the corridors, because when they wake up they frequently mistake the ordinary door for the lavatory door, and so walk out on to the line?
I do not know what caused these accidents. That would be shown by the evidence given at the inquests.
Will my right hon. Friend look into it?
Requisitioning of Merchant Ships (Food Supplies)
Appointment of Committee
asked the President of the Board of Trade the names of those composing the expert Committee which has been appointed to carry into effect the Order in Council of the 10th November with reference to the requisitioning of merchant ships for the carriage of food-stuffs and other necessary supplies to this country?
The Requisitioning (Carriage of Food-stuffs) Committee is composed of the following gentlemen: The Chairman of Ways and Means (the Right Hon. J. H. Whitley, M.P.) (chairman), Mr. F. C. Gardiner, of Glasgow, Mr. Ernest W. Glover, of London, and the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. E. D. Holt, M.P.). Mr. Thomas Royden, of Liverpool, who has been abroad on a mission for the Government, will join the Committee on his return to London in the near future. The last four gentlemen are the shipowners who are also assisting the Transport Department of the Admiralty.
Questions
Letters of Members of Parliament (Censorship)
asked the Home Secretary whether letters addressed to Members of this House are opened by the Censor?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I have already stated that letters addressed to Members of both Houses of Parliament, if addressed to them at those Houses, are not subject to censorship, but that letters addressed to them at their houses are subject to censorship.
Does the Home Office consider that Members of this House have less discretion than the officials at the Censor's office, some of whom are aliens, many of whom are shirkers, and all of whom are worse than useless?
Are we to understand when letters are forwarded from the House to our homes, that then they are censored?
No, I think not.
Can the hon. Gentleman say why he makes any exception whatever?
:I think the reason why it was originally made was that it was impossible to tell whether the letters were properly addressed to Members of Parliament or not unless they were sent to this House. There might be a considerable number of letters addressed to "Mr. So-and-so" with "M.P." at the end of his name, and he might not really be a Member of Parliament at all. It was done in order to avoid that difficulty.
In view of the fact that the question was originally raised by me, may I ask my hon. Friend if it is not a fact that last August he wrote to me saying that this privilege did not attach to Members of Parliament unless the letters were put in special envelopes; in other words, is it not a fact that letters addressed to Members of Parliament at the front, unless put in special envelopes, are not free from the Censorship? That is what the hon. Gentleman said to me last August.
I am really surprised my hon. Friend tells me that, because I have no recollection of it at all. I do recollect answering a question put to me by my hon. Friend, and, charging my memory, I think I told my hon. Friend that letters addressed to this House or to the other House would be relieved from the Censorship, but letters addressed to the homes of hon. Members would be censored.
I will put a question on the point, giving the facts from my hon. Friend's letter.
Motor-Cab Drivers
asked the Home Secretary whether the Departmental Committee upon the examination of motor-cab drivers has made its Report; and, if so, whether he will make public the recommendations of that Committee and state what action he proposes to take with regard to them?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. He has received the Report of the Committee and it is now under consideration, but he is not at present in a position to make a statement with regard to it.
Political Prosecutions (Ireland)
asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether he adheres to his decision not to notice intimidation on the Crown side in a political case, seeing that although Dyer when arrested at Tubbercurry admitted the only offence with which he was charged he was brought to Dublin and kept in prison awaiting trial; will he say for what offence that period of imprisonment is punishment; and, if for none, will it go in reduction of the month's imprisonment to which he was subsequently sentenced?
There was no intimidation on the part of the Crown. The accused was kept in prison awaiting his trial in the ordinary course. As regards the concluding part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his question on this subject on the 9th instant.
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain the magistrate's refusal in open Court to take notice of intimidation by the Crown Prosecutor?
There was no intimidation.
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how the magistrate knew that there was no intimidation at the time of the complaint of it when he said he would not notice it?
National Economy
Dublin Metropolitan Police Tax
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that dissatisfaction exists amongst the Metropolitan ratepayers respecting the amount of taxation levied and the absence of information regarding the expenditure of the Dublin Metropolitan Police tax; and if it is intended in the proposed retrenchment scheme to adopt such economies as will benefit the ratepayers?
I am aware that complaints have been made in respect of the Dublin Metropolitan Police tax. The yield of the tax is appropriated in aid of the Vote for the Dublin Metropolitan Police, detailed information as to which is contained in the Estimates laid before Parliament. Economies which may be effected in this service will benefit ratepayers in so far as they are also taxpayers to the Exchequer.
Peat Fuel
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that economies in the expenditure on coal could be effected by the development of the national resources in peat fuel; that it would also be valuable in preserving our coal resources; and whether he will appoint a Committee to report promptly on the subject?
I do not think that at the present time it would be desirable to encourage any large expenditure of capital in the development of the peat industry, and in these circumstances I am not prepared to appoint a Committee to deal with this subject.
London Municipalities and Livery Companies
asked the Prime Minister if the Retrenchment Committee has investigated whether economies can be effected in the municipal expenditure in London and in the expenditure of the livery companies; and, if so, when their Report will be available?
The inquiry of the Retrenchment Committee is confined by their terms of reference to "public expenditure in Civil Departments," and the two points referred to by the hon. Member therefore fall outside the scope of the Committee.
Is there no possibility of having an inquiry into this gross extravagance in the municipal expenditure of London?
Questions
China (Restoration of Monarchy)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Monarchy has been restored in China and Yuan Shi-Kai is to occupy the throne?
It is understood that a Presidential Mandate, issued on the 12th instant, notified the formal acceptance by Yuan Shi-Kai of the throne offered to him. His Excellency, however, continues to act as President.
Has the Noble Lord any reason to believe that German intrigue has anything to do with this change?
I have no reason to believe that German intrigue has anything to do with it.
Banks in Ireland (New Year's Day)
asked the Prime Minister whether banks in Ireland will be closed as in England on New Year's Day?
Steps are being taken to ascertain the wishes in' this matter of Irish bankers with a view to their receiving, should they so desire, the same facilities as bankers in England.
Railway Traffic (Ireland)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the arrangements made between the railway companies in Ireland and the Board of Trade regulating the traffic and charges on certain woollen-weaving and hosiery factories have been inconvenient and expensive, and have reduced the volume of employment; and whether he will cause inquiries to be made with a view to have these complaints remedied?
No arrangements of the nature of those referred to have been made between railway companies in Ireland and the Board of Trade. I have, however, received a complaint from an Irish weaving company respecting delays in their traffic in England, and this is having attention.
National Insurance Act
Scottish Chemists
asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether he can state what arrangement has been made with the Scottish chemists to avoid insured persons in Scotland being deprived of medicines after 31st December?
As I have indicated in reply to previous questions the necessity of maintaining the supply of drugs, medicines, and appliances to insured persons in Scotland during 1916 has been the governing consideration in all negotiations on this subject. As a result of further representations, made on behalf of chemists on the panel in Scotland, I have been enabled to authorise Scottish insurance committees to offer terms of service for 1916 to chemists in each area, which are designed to safeguard the interest of the Exchequer so far as is possible under war conditions, and will, I have every reason to hope, secure the continuance of the chemists' service during the forthcoming year.
Judicial Committee Bill [Lords]
Read the first time; to be read a second time To morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 171.]
Orders of the Day
Munitions of War (Amendment) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
My right hon. Friend has asked me to move the Second Reading of this Bill and to explain its provisions to the House. He desires to speak later on in the discussion. He feels that he will be better able to deal with the points of criticism and to speak with greater advantage in the interests of the Bill after he has heard the comments of hon. Members in the course of the Debate. The House will agree that the task which has occupied the time and energy of my right hon. Friend during the past months has been of so complex and, I think I may say, of so colossal a character, that only those who have been working in close association with him can have any adequate realisation of it. Bearing this in mind, I may perhaps be allowed to take this opportunity of saying, in respect of some of the criticisms which have been levelled against the Munitions Act and its administration, that critics have too often lost sight of what the Act has accomplished and of the enormous difficulties which have had to be surmounted, and attached altogether undue importance to the relatively few cases in which there have been substantial grounds for complaint. I think I may say with confidence that, but for the Munitions Act it would have been impossible for my right hon. Friend to have obtained the enormous output of munitions which has been obtained and will be obtained in far greater volume in the near future. We have been careful all along to consider criticisms as they arose and to examine the application of the Act so as to ascertain what steps should be taken to make it smoother and more expeditious in its working.
In preparing this Bill my right hon. Friend has had the greatest possible assistance from representatives both of employers and employed, and I should add that they have brought to the consideration of these Amendments a truly patriotic and far-sighted spirit. At no time has there been any disposition, so far as I am aware, to bring any substantial pressure to bear upon my right hon. Friend to depart from the essential principles of the original Act. The representatives both of employers and employed have recognised that there are more than two parties to this Act—that there are three parties, and that the third party in the State, and the interest of that third party are the interests of the millions of men who stand arrayed in arms—interests which over-awe all other interests. This has never been lost sight of in any of the representations which have been made to my right hon. Friend, and it has been agreed that there is no desire to set aside the main principles of the Act.
Those principles are three in number. The first is that there should be a limitation of the profits which are made out of the manufacture of munitions of war. The second is that there should be a relaxation of any trade practices which are found to stand in the way of the increased output of munitions. This has commonly been spoken of as the dilution of skilled labour. It is proceeding apace throughout the country, and without it it would have been utterly impossible to obtain the munitions we require. The third principle is that there should be a limitation both by employers and employed of what they may do in their factories, and how they may dispose of their labour. Most of the complaints which have occupied the greatest amount of space in the public Press have centred around the limitations upon the movement of labour, and we have endeavoured in this Bill to meet some of the causes of complaint. I may explain that, as the principal Act stands, a workman cannot obtain other munition work than that on which he is now engaged unless he obtains a certificate, or unless six weeks have elapsed, so that if a man were dismissed from his employment without a certificate he might find himself in the position of not being able to obtain other employment, or even a certificate. It was felt that this was an inequitable position for any workman to occupy. We have, therefore, in this Bill remedied that by providing in the fourth Clause that where a workman is dismissed he shall be given a certificate, unless, in exceptional cases, it can be shown he has deliberately misbehaved himself in order to get dismissed.
Then, in some cases, men are suspended from work without pay for a number of days. It is therefore provided in this Bill that where suspension takes place for a period of more than three days a man shall be entitled to a certificate. Then, in order to secure that a workman shall have a reasonable opportunity of obtaining other employment, it is provided in the Bill that if a man is dismissed without a week's notice or wages in lieu thereof, the case shall be reported to the munitions tribunal, which can award the man a certificate with reasonable compensation if they think fit, so as to give him time to obtain other employment. But this provision, I should say at once, does not apply to ship repairing work or other work in which it is not usual, by reason of the nature of the employment, to require a week's notice, and where the work normally terminates with the completion of the task. Then there is another important qualification which has been introduced in order to meet this case: It is recognised on all sides that it would be the destruction of the principle of the Act if a man could go from one job to another for a small increase of wages, or if employers were allowed to entice workmen from other yards. But sometimes it has occurred that a skilled workman has been doing work hardly commensurate with his skill. We cannot afford, in the present emergency, to employ a skilled workman on anything other than skilled work. It is therefore provided that where a man can show that the work he is seeking will make better use of his skill than that on which he is now employed he may be entitled on that account to a certificate.
Another important alteration in the Bill is that certificates, whether given by the munitions tribunal or by employers, shall be of a strictly uniform character, and there shall be nothing in them to distinguish whether they are issued by the tribunal or by the employer, and it shall not bear any entry indicating that it is in the nature of a character note. The certificate is only to show that a man can leave his employment, and it should bear no entry for or against his personal capacity or skill as a workman. We also take powers to regulate the custody and formulation of the certificates in matters of that kind.
Another important section of the Bill deals with the munitions tribunals. We have had a good many cases brought before us pointing out inequalities in some of the decisions of these tribunals, but I am afraid it is beyond the limitations of human nature—and this will equally apply to tribunals other than munitions tribunals—to devise any scheme which would secure that any set of tribunals will give uniformly equitable decisions. Therefore several suggestions made for an improvement in the character of the munitions tribunals my right hon. Friend has not been able to accept. One of them was that there should be four assessors instead of two, but we did not think it likely we should get equality of decision or uniformity of action any more from five people on a tribunal than from three—indeed, my right hon. Friend thinks that probably there would be less. For the same reason, similarly, we have not seen our way to agree to another suggestion which has been put forward, namely, that assessors should be members of the tribunals. It is to be borne in mind that the assessors are not always the same people. There is a panel from which the assessors are chosen, and they may be different assessors—they often are—from day to day. You secure no greater uniformity by making them members of the tribunals so long as they are different persons from day to day. We provide in the Bill that the chairman of the tribunal must consult the assessors. There have been a few cases before munition tribunals where women workers were concerned, and in those cases it is provided that there shall be a woman assessor. In order, however, to remedy any inequalities, and to secure greater uniformity in respect of decisions on points of law, a tribunal is set up to which appeals may be made upon points of law, and we shall take power to issue rules to make the procedure before this appeal tribunal both expeditious and inexpensive, qualities which, perhaps, do not always apply to such tribunals.
Another important Clause in the Bill deals with the employment of women. Might I here say that those of us who have had the opportunity of examining the records have been deeply impressed with the amount of work, as well as the character of the work, which has been turned out by women in munition factories. Women are doing now, in our munition factories, a great many very skilled processes—turning out shells, fuses, part of shells, and many other things, some of which were not previously made by women at all—and they are handling machines and earning piece-rate wages which must have been the envy of women in former times, had they known of them, and which are now, I am quite sure, the envy of their sisters in other occupat ions, and very likely of the men too. In the principal Act the wages of women non-skilled workers introduced into munition factories is safeguarded in the Second Schedule. Similarly, the piece-work rates of women are safeguarded, but there is nothing in the principal Act which secures that the women whom we are forcing into munitions work—because we are really forcing them into it; not that there is any reluctance on their part to come in, but we are forcing open wider and wider the doors through which they may enter—there is nothing provided in the principal Act whereby, when women are coming into munitions work and are doing work which was not formerly done by men, to secure them necessarily an adequate time rate and other wages. Eighty per cent. of the work which women are now doing on munitions is not work which was previously done by men at all, therefore it is not covered by the principal Act. These women are working in controlled establishments. They cannot leave them without a leaving certificate, and my right hon. Friend is quite sure that he, and that the House itself, could not resist the argument that if you force women into an employment which they cannot leave and to which they are tied down for at least six weeks, you must take power to secure that while they are in that employment they are paid a reasonable living wage. I do not want it to be thought from that that there are a great number of cases where this would apply. In large factories all over the country women are earning very good wages, but there is a considerable number of cases where they are being very improperly paid, and my right hon. Friend will deal with those cases under the powers he will acquire through this Bill.
Another Clause in the Bill extends the operations of the principal Act. In the first place, it can be decided that a Government establishment employed in the production of munitions of war shall be a controlled establishment, and therefore shall have applied to it the rules and regulations which apply to controlled establishments. In Clause 6 we have expanded the definition of the term "munitions work." One part of the extension, as the House will recognise at once, is of great importance. We have brought in the building of merchant ships. In relation to this the President of the Board of Trade, in a letter addressed to the Minister of Munitions the other day, said:—
4.0 P.M.
There are many minor provisions in the Bill upon which I need not delay the House, such as those relating to the conditions of the employment of munition volunteers, the publication of Orders, the protection of the members and proceedings of the munition tribunals, the delegation of our work and powers which may be desirable to other Government Departments, such as the Board of Trade, the Home Office, and so on, but I need not delay the House with any discussion of these more or less minor Clauses. I am afraid even those I have indicated are great inroads which the State is making for its own protection on private rights and on individual and industrial liberty. But in reference to them I should like to draw attention to an important matter which we may be tempted to overlook. In this Bill we are engaged on an endeavour to adjust differences fairly, to remedy grievances, to make the rough places plain, and to hold the balance as evenly as we can between this claim and that; but the considerations which arise in connection with there matters will not make us forget that there are thousands of employers and hundreds of thousands of workmen who all the time, without making any complaint, or without perhaps an acute sense of having any ground for complaint, with industrious, patient and splendid loyalty have gone on with their work, making munitions for our Armies by day and by night. If they have felt the limitations imposed upon them they have accepted them willingly for they know, as we all know, full well that any restraint and sacrifices, either personal or financial, that we may impose upon ourselves are as nothing when compared with the voluntary surrender of their individual freedom, their security and comfort, which has been made by those brave men who, enduring all manner of privations, are fighting our battles by land and sea.
I think we may congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the lucid exposition he has given us. One part of his speech will, I am sure, be a source of gratification to all who take a particular interest in women's work. One point I intended bringing before the House was the question that he has dealt with of those women who are in munition factories, bound down, but who still had not the protection which the other women had, and we can only hope that what the hon. Gentleman has said will be fully carried out, and that the women workers who are in that position will receive that remuneration to which they are justly entitled and that, as he put it, women would be forced—I do not like the word forced, because I do not think any of the women have been forced into munition factories; I would rather put it that they had been encouraged—to come to the aid of their brothers in the prosecution of the War, and that being so we ought to do everything that is possible to see that they are properly remunerated for the work they do. The hon. Gentleman spoke with reference to the achievements of the Act. I think we must agree that all that has been achieved would not have been achieved without the Act, although I am bold enough to say, I think, without the Act the workers of this country would have done as well as they have done under compulsion. At any rate, I can speak for my own particular trade that before the Munitions Act came into operation at all there was no reasonable request put forward, either from the Admiralty or from the War Office, for the production of extra munitions which was not at once complied with.
There are several good features in the Amending Bill, and some of them are long overdue. The hon. Gentleman seems to think that none of the disputes which had arisen with respect to the provisions of the Act have been of a serious character. That I say most strongly was due to the restraining influence of the various trade union officials and executives in this country, because in many instances their temper was very sorely tried by the actions of many large firms in this country. On a. previous occasion I brought before the House a very bad case of one of our largest armament firms dismissing 151 men, whereas previous thereto they had been prevented from going to another armament firm where their services would have been utilised for the nation's benefit. They were suspended for some weeks. This particular armament firm refused to let the men go because they were in anticipation of receiving a large Government order. After that order was received and completed the men were cast off like an old shoe. The Minister of Munitions, after some grave delays on the part of his subordinates, came to look into the case, and saw that some measure of justice was done to these men. The one point I want to draw upon that is that the new provision of the Act providing for a week's notice is not yet sufficient. If the Ministry of Munitions through the various controlled establishments have a lien upon a man's services for six weeks the man is entitled to six weeks' notice as a just and equitable proceeding as between the employer and the workman. We have got to realise that in many other respects the treatment of the men is inequitable. If there is any complaint made by way of asking for increased wages or an alteration of the conditions of employment, the men have to give twenty-one days' notice, and then after the twenty-one days expire a further period must elapse before anything can be done in the way of a definite decision. You have there these three weeks to begin with, and a lien upon the man's services for six weeks, and yet he can be dismissed at a week's notice. Under the provisions of the Act, and under the Amending Bill as well, an employer can suspend a man for three days. That means that he can suspend him for three days, work him for a day, and suspend him for another three days. There must be some more equitable provision than that. Surely from an equitable point of view if you have a lien upon a man's services for six weeks it is absolutely wrong that that man should be suspended for even a single day unless he has been guilty of some negligence or some fault of one kind or another. But where a man has been guilty of no offence, surely it is wrong that he should be suspended even for one day. Do not forget that the man must run six weeks before he can leave even to go to a higher-paid job, provided he can get such. When we come to the Committee stage I hope some justice will be done to these men as compared with what has been stated on the introduction of the Bill.
With respect to the tribunals, when the original Bill was under discussion, when the Court was constituted of a chairman with two assessors, we on these benches, at any rate, imagined that this was to be a sort of domestic Court where you would have the employer on the one side and the workman on the other, both experts, so far as the technique of the trade was concerned. Under these tribunals some chairmen have absolutely ignored what the Munitions Act described as the assessors. I am not saying whether it is justifiable or not. I am making the point that we understood that there were to be a sort of domestic Courts where the chairman, finding that the employer and the workmen were in agreement, would give a decision according to their mutual understanding. In a good many instances the chairmen have absolutely ignored the assessors. Our desire is that this Court should be constituted on the same method as under the Conciliation and Arbitrations Acts. The three men are equal: the one appointed from the employers' panel, the other appointed from the workmen's panel. If they agree the chairman only requires to promulgate their decision. If the two of them disagree it remains with the chairman to give a casting vote. Workers all over the country are extremely anxious and desirous that the Court should be constituted in the manner I have suggested. That would give very much greater satisfaction to the workers than the conditions which are stated in the Amending Bill. I do not think any very serious point was made as to the four assessors instead of two. There was a divergence of opinion on the subject and I believe the greater part of those representing the trade union movement, at any rate, would prefer two as being less cumbrous than four, and we hope, when we come to the Committee stage, the right hon. Gentleman's mind will be quite open to the acceptance of the position I have stated, that these Courts will be looked upon more as domestic than as legal Courts, and that their constitution will be based upon the principle which we know and have understood so well and acted upon for so many years under the Conciliation and Arbitration Acts.
With reference to leaving certificates, it must not be thought that this amending provision is because of any particular grumbling from the workers, because the right hon. Gentleman himself has found that when he wanted a man it has been up against him that he could not get a leaving certificate any more than a workman could, and as a consequence of the great number of national factories which have been brought into existence recently he was hampered and harassed in the finding of suitable men, the employers generally being very reluctant to lose a skilled man even though that particular person's services could be utilised to very much greater advantage to the nation elsewhere. I think you realise that under the Amending Bill a man may be dismissed upon a week's notice, notwithstanding the fact that there is a lien of six weeks upon him. If he gets an offer of employment where he is going to get 10s. 15s. or 20s. per week more, it is a very great hardship that that man cannot leave for that better employment, and yet he can be suspended for three days or dismissed by a week's notice. Surely it must appeal to the House that that is not fair play. I would rather say that conditions such as these are not creditable.
I hope the Amending Bill will give the right hon. Gentleman power to deal with the question of excessive hours. I have come across a good many instances where the excessive hours which have been worked have been really very injurious, not only so far as output is concerned, but so far as the health of the workers is concerned. A White Paper has been issued on the subject, but I think that there must be something more done. It is to be hoped that the right hon. Gentleman has some Department in charge of that, and that they will keep their finger on the pulse of this excessive overtime. I think it might be possible for instructions to be issued to munitions tribunals where, for instance, a case has happened such as I will relate. A man is transferred from one district to another as a volunteer, and he has removed his family, but after four, five, or six months' experience the man has found that the climate of the district he has removed to has had a very injurious effect upon the health of his wife, and although a doctor's certificate to that effect has been placed before the tribunal, the man has been refused his leaving certificate. The result of that has been that the man has simply left his work, and remained idle for six weeks, and then gone into a district where the climate was more suited to the health of his wife. I do not think that any of us would blame the man in such circumstances. It demonstrates the stupidity of the munitions tribunals when circumstances such as these have not been taken into account in dealing with men asking for relief of that character.
In conclusion I would say that we on these Benches have not been at any time captious critics of the Ministry of Munitions. We have done our very best to help them. We all realise what is at stake, and which was so well expressed in the peroration of the right hon. Gentleman (Dr. Addison). We all know what we are up against, and there is not any sacrifice that we are not prepared to make in common with any other section of the community so that we may retain the freedom and the privileges that our forefathers have handed down to us as a glorious heritage.
I think the right hon. Gentleman, on the whole, is to be congratulated on the manner in which the Bill has been received. I must say that, after going into it pretty carefully, I do not think that there is very much for anyone to complain about in the provisions of this Amending Bill. I rather regret that the right hon. Gentleman has not gone somewhat further than merely to make minor Amendments in the principal Act. So far as I can see, there is one considerable difficulty that arises in the main Act, and that is that the right hon. Gentleman has got two classes of works under different treatment, in both of which a man cannot leave without a leaving certificate. That is to say, he has controlled works in which the profits are limited, and he has uncontrolled works in which the Munition Acts are applied where the profits are not limited. It is all very well to say that the workmen shall make sacrifices in the controlled works where the profits are limited, but I think it is much more difficult to argue that the workman is to make sacrifices in a works which is declared a munitions works under Section 7, but in which the profits are not limited and therefore no corresponding sacrifice is made by the employer.
An HON. MEMBER: Under the Finance Act—the Excess Profits Tax.
The Finance Act has nothing to do with the Munitions Act. Personally, I should have thought that it would have been better to unify the proceedings, to make every works connected with the provision of munitions a controlled establishment, and to have one system of control. That would enable the point to be emphasised which the right hon. Gentleman made to a deputation of working men, and that is, that the employers are giving up a great deal, and therefore he could make a claim for workmen giving up a great deal. Another question, and I think it is a fundamental difficulty, where trouble undoubtedly arises, is that we have a great shortage of labour of all kinds in this country, and the result is that every employer by hook or by crook wishes to stick to every workman he has got, not through any selfish desire of aggrandising his profits, but for the reason that he is under obligations to carry out a national duty, and he is short of men, and every man who leaves makes it more difficult for him to carry out the contracts he has undertaken towards the Government. That is a fundamental difficulty. I do not see that we have advanced at all seriously in the direction of the Ministry of Munitions being able to apply men who are not doing munitions work in this country to munition factories. The right hon. Gentleman at Manchester last June made a very strong speech, in which he said he would not hesitate to use compulsion in this matter. At the present time I do not think he has even begun efforts in that direction. I do not think there is any machinery that has been tried except the one experiment of getting munition volunteers from men in this country, and enabling them or giving them the machinery for enrolling in munition works. The right hon. Gentleman seems to think it is very difficult, but I do not know why it should be.
An HON. MEMBER: How would you do it?
Through the Labour Exchanges. The question is continually being asked of me by people who want to go in the munition works, what course they must adopt. They say "I want to go into munition works. Where am I to go, and what am I to do?" The only answer I have been able to give is to tell them to go to 6, Whitehall Gardens. Information ought to be given as to where you are to apply and where you can go to get a job in munition work. Complaints are being frequently made about people who are skilled men having applied for munition work and having been sent from one works to another, and they are not wanted in any place they have been sent to. There must be something wrong in an organisation for that to take place. It seems that you only take men who are specially skilled at the particular job he is wanted for. A man who was a fairly skilled artisan some years ago—I am speaking of a motor mechanic—went to Enfield and asked for work there. He was asked whether he could make rifle barrels, and he replied that he had not done so but that he was a mechanic, and he was told, "we only want men who can make rifle barrels." That kind of thing is useless. A man under those circumstances returns discouraged, and never makes another effort. I have had several cases brought before my notice of men who have been good mechanics, but who are now a little rusty, and not used to modern tools. These men are not worth their full money when they start, but they very soon pick up their work again, and it seems to me that we want provision to encourage these men, and to enable them to take up their work again, which perhaps they have gone off for some years. I am perfectly certain that there must be among the motor drivers in this country a considerable number of skilled mechanics. But I am not merely speaking of skilled men. The unskilled men are just as important, but that is a point which has been a little overlooked. You have been asked to return the skilled men, the indispensable men, to the factories, but I would point out that the unskilled man is important also. The skilled man without the unskilled man is quite incapable of carrying on the enterprise at all. At the present time you have employers engaged in different branches of munitions in competition all over the country with each other for men, going round and trying to enlist men for their work wherever they can find them. We seem to have no kind of central organisation to deal with this matter in any way.
There is one point which occurs to me very strongly, and that is that all the work that is going on now cannot be of equal urgency. Although it may be perfectly true that a workman engaged in one job may be more usefully employed so far as his merit is concerned in another works, it does not follow at all that the work he would be doing there would be more urgent than the work he is doing now. If you are going to give greater elasticity in your Bill to transfer men from urgent work to get a higher grade job, and a better paid job at some other work, which may not be anything like as urgent, you may find yourselves in the difficulty of dislocating your urgent contracts for the benefit of some work which you could do in three months time. One important thing which seems to me to be necessary is to really grade the job in the order of urgency. I know that work I have been connected with myself, in the Explosives Department, has taken twice as long as it ought to have done because you cannot get the artisans to do it. I should think that you ought to have organised a staff of emergency men, so that the authorities should have in their hands a certain number of men of different grades whom they can switch on at a given moment to any job that requires to be finished quickly. The position you have at the present time is that you have hundreds of works all over the country growing up, all practically at a different state of development, and the men are in similar stages of development. They will all take months and months to finish unless you adopt some rotation order, and get your men round to these different works in the rotation you require. At the present time you have work being done through the explosives department, which is an excellent work and a very urgent work. Then you have somewhere else a national shell factory being put up, and you have someone putting up another kind of factory, and they are all competing in the same labour market for men. It seems to me that one of the worst features of the situation is the position of the contractor who is working on a margin percentage of profits. He is quite reckless what he pays for labour. The more he pays for labour, the higher is his percentage of profit. My experience is that he is a man who is ready to pay more for labour, and at the present time labour is taken away from other works.
In the case of the permanent employers, they cannot get over the difficulty in regard to labour rates, having to take into consideration the future. The firm which simply comes in to do munition work gets all the labour it wants by paying more, and such a firm is really one of the worst disorganisers of the labour market. In my opinion more control is needed over the amount which such firms are entitled to pay as wages, and the Department which engages those employers should have that control, both for the sake of economy and for the general interests of the labour market. That is really a very important point. Another question is the return of skilled men from the front. I do not think we have had quite such a return of skilled men from the Army as the industries of this country are entitled to. In France, where they cannot have a superabundance of soldiers, there does not appear to be any difficulty about getting skilled men from the Army. In that country it appears to be infinitely easier to secure the return of skilled men from the front than it does in this country. It is within my personal knowledge that, when the French Government requires the return of a number of skilled men for some industry, nothing seems to stand between them and their obtaining the workmen they require. How have they organised that? I do not know, but they seem to have nothing like the difficulties you have here. I hope that some more vigorous system will be adopted than has been the case hitherto. There are numerous regulations about the men who are at work which I could go into, but I do not wish to detain the House. For example, when a man is returned to a chemical factory he must work in his uniform for the first forty-eight hours; and there are other regulations of that description which certainly require to be investigated. On the whole, however, I think the right hon. Gentleman has satisfied us in regard to controlled establishments in active work, and I cannot imagine that many tribunals would act in the way described by the hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge). I should think that the number of such tribunals must be very small; certainly the complaints, on the whole, have not been very large, if you take the whole country and the number of controlled establishments into consideration.
One curious thing in these regulations is that, where a man leaves work without a certificate, there is no real machinery that I know of which will enable the tribunals or the employers to trace him, and you are very largely dependent on the fact that most of the workmen to-day are more ready and anxious to work in any factory which they know is doing work for the War than in any other factory which is doing nothing of the kind. That is really at the root of the thing. Most employers are ready to do the best they can, even under serious difficulties, to get the work done. I must say that, not so much this House but the Press, have got a very curious misunderstanding of the industrial position. The Press continually refer to employers who are making profits, and to the workmen who are doing the work. After all, the people who are anxious and worried about these regulations are the employers; they are not capitalists or shareholders; they are really the men who have charge of the management of the works, and who are really just as much employed as any workmen, and whose interest in these matters is to perform their duty to the country. The harassed manager, trying to finish his contract, and working day and night on plans, and who cannot keep men from drifting away, is one who is equally to be considered. The shareholders know nothing about these matters and are not very much concerned about the question of dividends; but here you have the manager working day and night, doing work of this kind, which is never mentioned. These employers and managers, who are working day and night on these things, are absolutely doing what the country wants to the best of their ability. They are people who ought really to be considered; they are people who not unnaturally rather resent having their works disarranged more than is necessary; but I do not think myself, having gone carefully into this Bill, that there is anything in it of which any reasonable person could complain. Indeed, a good deal of this measure is more explanatory than legislative, and much of what it seeks to effect could have been done without this legislation being necessary.
There is one further point, which arises in Sub-section (1) of Clause 6. In paragraph ( a ) there are these words, "materials of any class, specified in an order, made for the purpose, by the Minister of Munitions, required for any such manufacture, or repair as aforesaid." These are very wide words. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will consider fuel and coal as included in these materials? If they are not, is it not desirable that there should be powers, having in view the number of controlled industries employed on war work, to deal with the fuel supply of this country? In regard to the fuel supply of this country, there is serious apprehension in many districts among the manufacturers of munitions. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Munitions ought to be in. a position to regulate the disposal of industrial fuel in this country, so that at any rate these works could make certain that they would get the amount of fuel which will be required to carry on their industry. I think these words may be held to be wide enough for the inclusion of fuel and coal, but to my mind the right hon. Gentleman ought to be specially advised on the matter, so that the whole foundation of industrial purposes shall not be endangered. I think it is becoming more important that the right hon. Gentleman should see that establishments employed on war work shall be supplied with all the fuel they will require in a systematic way, and that he should take care to have the full control he requires in these matters.
A further point which has been brought to my notice is whether some means could not be devised by which it could be brought home more forcibly to the workers, in some of the works, that they are not working under normal conditions, that they are not under foremen and managers as previously, and that they are really public employés. I do not know whether some kind of special certificate could be given to men working in controlled establishments, showing that they are looked on in the light of civil servants, and people who are sent from the different Departments should, I think, have some special badge by which they can be recognised. There was an extraordinary case, in one of the controlled establishments, where the Munitions Department sent a number of non-union men to be employed on war work. The union men downed tools, not realising that the men who had been sent were Government servants, just as much as any soldier. The fact of these men being sent down on urgent Government business I think called for their being furnished either with a union ticket or some other means of official recognition, and if that had been done I think a very much better impression would have been produced. It seems to me that in these directions a little more imagination might be exercised by the right hon. Gentleman as to what are the requirements necessary to show that these people who are sent by a Department are Civil servants, and so avoid any misapprehension as to the conditions of their employment. The only thing that is done now in these works is to hoist a flag during certain hours. That is something, but it should be considered whether more could not be done to cause the workmen employed on war work to feel that they are now really doing Government work. These are practical questions which I have brought forward, and I leave them to the right hon. Gentleman, who has devoted a great deal of time and care to this question, as well worthy of his consideration, now that we have an opportunity of extending the provisions of the Munitions Act.
I wish to join with the other hon. Members who have spoken today in congratulating my hon. Friend (Dr. Addison) on the explanation which he has given of the provisions of this Bill. I do not intend to follow the right hon. Baronet (Sir A. Mond) into all his criticisms of the working of the Ministry of Munitions or into his detailed criticisms of the Bill. I think, indeed, that his detailed criticisms of the administration of the Ministry of Munitions would be more appropriate on the discussion on the statement of the work of that Ministry, which we are promised from the Minister of Munitions some time next week. With regard to his criticism about the Munitions Act, I am, I confess, surprised to find that he laid so much stress upon the difference between controlled and other establishments. So far as I understand, the effect of control over munitions, Government control, is mainly indicated by the provisions in relation to profits. That is the main external evidence of control. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty speaks of rules. It is quite true that general provision has been made regarding rules, but very little has been done as to specific rules emanating from the Ministry of Munitions. The main evidence of control relates to the sharing of profits. Now, however, that the Finance Act has been passed, you have the Excess Profits Duty, which fixes the sharing of profits on somewhat different principles, but quite as effectively as the provisions for the control of establishments under the Munitions Act. Indeed, I am rather of opinion that the sharing of profits provided for in the Excess Profits Duty is more effective than the provision contained in the Munitions Act. I think it may be taken for granted that a great many people who are not at present controlled would prefer to be controlled as soon as possible, so as to bring them out of the net provided by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
I have corrected this statement before, and I can assure my hon. Friend that is not so. I have consulted my right hon. Friend the Chancellor on the point and that is his view. My right hon. Friend and his advisers may be right or wrong in the interpretation of the law, but that is their interpretation. I make the correction not because I hope to convince the hon. Member, but because I do not want anybody to be misled into the view that his interpretation is more reliable than that of the Ministry of Munitions.
We are all right. Legally he is right, and I accept his legal interpretation, but I believe that in practice my statement is substantially correct, and it is, after all, the practical effects we are really concerned with. I do not think it is necessary to go into detailed arguments with regard to this matter at present, but on the principle I still adhere to my opinion. There was one other point which the right hon. Baronet made, and that was his expression of regret that all those in controlled establishments do not recognise that they are Government servants. It is, I think, a regrettable thing that they do not recognise that they are Government servants, but they do not feel in effect that they are Government servants. They still believe that they are in private employment, and, for my part, I should have preferred a provision regarding the control of those establishments which would have made them effectively Government servants. I think that could have been done had the Government, instead of making those provisions regarding control which are contained in the Munitions Act, gone in a straightforward way and leased those establishments, paying the proprietors a rent for the establishment. Then, undoubtedly, every person engaged in those establishments would have been a Government servant, and there could not have been any mistake about the matter. That is a matter of past policy which we cannot go back on at the present time. I am glad that to-day we are discussing this Bill in a different atmosphere from that in which we discussed the original Act. The original Act was introduced at a time of panic. There was a feeling of panic, not only in this House but also in the country, regarding the supply of munitions available for our troops in the various fields of war. Under these circumstances it was quite impossible to have that free, proper, detailed discussion of the original Act which was necessary for the purpose of sound legislation. That is why we require an Amending Bill this afternoon. I remember on the Second Reading of the original Act that it was almost impossible for a critic of the Bill to get a fair hearing from the House.
There were many provisions of the original Act which were perfectly sound. My hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary, referred to three provisions. The first is the control of profits. As to that there was no division of opinion in any quarter of the House. The second point was as to the suspension or relaxation of trade practices during the period of the War. On that there was no division of opinion. The only question raised in regard to the suspension of those practices was whether the provisions of the Bill gave adequate security for the restoration of those rules and practices after the War was over. That was the only real point. It was, however, when we came to the punitive part, or what we may call the penal code, that there was division. It is because I believe sufficient attention was not given to the provisions of that penal code that we have had the difficulties which have attended the Ministry of Munitions during its career since that Act was passed. I, at that time, stated as strongly as I could the objections which I had to those compulsory provisions, objections which were not then shared, I am sorry to say, by my hon. Friend the Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge). I am glad to find that he shares them at the present time, and that he is now going to join with other Members in this House in making the relaxations now proposed even more effective than they are in the Bill. At that time my hon. Friend was quite satisfied that he represented thoroughly his trade unions in his complete support of the Bill. Now I think he realises that there was some mistake. We know, as my hon. Friend has admitted, that in many parts of the country grievances have arisen as a result of these punitive provisions. There has been discontent regarding the leaving certificates. There has been discontent regarding the six weeks during which a man has to go idle if he wishes to change his employment. There has been discontent in regard to the constitution and action of the tribunal. My right hon. Friend has appointed a Committee to inquire into this. That Committee is composed of Lord Balfour of Burleigh and a distinguished counsel at the Parliamentary Bar, Mr. Macassey, K.C I understand that that Committee has fully carried out its terms of reference, and has presented a Report to the Ministry of Munitions and that this Bill is partly founded on that Report, and yet the Minister of Munitions has refused to publish that Report so as to put the House of Commons in possession of the evidence upon which this Bill is founded.
My hon. Friend is quite wrong. The Report has been circulated, and I think he could have got a copy.
It has been circulated.
I put a question to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Ministry of Munitions yesterday, and in answer to my question he made the defi- nite statement that the Commissioners had only taken part of the evidence, and that under those circumstances the Ministry could not publish the Report.
I can explain. The fact is that it has been published by order of the House, and is available.
Here it is; I happen to have got a copy.
I was going on the reply I got from the Parliamentary Secretary yesterday.
Perhaps I may tell the hon. Gentleman what occurred. The employers stated that this Report had been arrived at before their case was presented, and they objected to its publication, and said the Report was purely a provisional one, because while the trade unions had been fully heard their reply had not been heard. I said if that was the case, certainly the Report could not be published. I took the precaution of seeing Lord Balfour of Burleigh, and I discovered from him that he did not take that view, and that in his judgment this is a complete and by no means a provisional Report. Immediately I heard that I took steps to secure the printing of the Report. I only knew that at six o'clock last night, and the Report immediately went to press, and is available in the Vote Office.
I must apologise.
No, No!
5.0 P.M.
Then I must be allowed to express my thanks to my right hon. Friend for his promptness in publishing the Report immediately he had ascertained the true position. I am very glad that before we enter on the Committee stage that the House will be in full possession of the evidence which was before the Committee. I did not wish to make any unfair point; I was merely going on the information I received yesterday, and I appreciate very highly the action which my right hon. Friend has taken. The question of tribunals has been referred to this afternoon by my hon. Friend the Member for Gorton. At the time of the passing of the original Act I regarded the tribunal, as there proposed, as a very unfortunate tribunal, and at that time, in conjunction with other Members, I made representations to the Ministry of Munitions suggesting that those who were assessors should have a voice in the decisions of the tribunal. But the Minister of Munitions then informed us that it was impossible to accede to that demand, because it was contrary to the view of the trade unionists. I was surprised to find that the trade unions, even at that time, took the view which has been put forward this afternoon, and I think there must have been some misunderstanding. Now that the right hon. Gentleman is informed that the trade unions are strongly desirous of giving those who are at present styled assessors a voice in the decisions of the tribunal I hope he will see his way, before this Bill leaves the House, to make that concession. I believe it is of the utmost importance, and that were it made it would add extremely to the confidence in those tribunals felt by the masses of the working men who have to apply to them in regard to the conditions of employment. I do not desire to deal with any of the other details of the measure this afternoon. The great majority of the relaxations which are proposed are relaxations of which the critics of the original Act will thoroughly approve, and they are relaxations many of which were asked for at that time but which were then refused. As they are now offered they are welcomed with the greatest acceptance. Personally, I still regard the whole system of the penal code as a great mistake. I do not believe that this penal code has added a single shell to the production during the whole of this period. I do not believe that compulsory powers have done anything to increase production in the slightest degree. On the other hand, I believe that in many parts of the country the irritation which has been caused by these penal and compulsory provisions have retarded the production and acted as a drag and sterilised the voluntary effort which would otherwise have been available. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend will even yet consider the desirability of parting with these compulsory provisions. I know that the right hon. Baronet opposite (Sir A. Mond) believes in compulsion. I know he reminded my right hon. Friend in his speech in June of compulsion, an unhappy speech, I think, which most of the admirers of the right hon. Gentleman would like to blot out from their recollection. I would remind my right hon. Friend of this, that the right hon. Baronet opposite is not a happy inspirer when it comes to a matter deeply affecting the psychology of the people of this country. I would make this appeal, which I believe will be seconded and supported by many Members in other parts of the House. Why not part with your penal code altogether; why not abolish these punitive and compulsory provisions; why not get rid of these useless and expensive tribunals; why not make an appeal—an appeal which no man can make with greater eloquence and effect than my right hon. Friend himself—to the patriotism and sacrifice of the workmen of this country?
I am not going to follow the hon. Member who has just sat down except to say a single word in reference to two things to which he has referred. I hold in my hand at this moment the Report which he thought was not produced. There has been no mistake on the part of the Government about that, and not only that, but one of the Clauses with regard to the matter to which this Report is confined says, "We are in a position to make our recommendations at once." The hon. Member has made an appeal to my right hon. Friend (Mr. Lloyd George) to give up his compulsory powers. Why he should make that request I cannot conceive. We have been told that the work in which the Munitions Department are engaged is colossal. I have not the least doubt in the world that it is, and so far as I am concerned, I honestly rejoice that we have a Minister with the energy, and the go, and the industry of the right hon. Gentleman to preside over a Department of this kind of which the work is colossal, and which is destined, I hope, to secure in the long run a victory for this country which will be equally colossal. I only wish to say this in addition. I do not want to ask questions if the right hon. Gentleman cannot answer them now, and it is quite possible that he may not be able to do so at present; still, I think everybody is anxious that we should know what we can of the progress of the great work which is entrusted to him and also something with regard to what it is going to cost us, and is costing us now, if it be possible at present to give any answer upon those points. I should like to ask, only if my right hon. Friend finds it possible to answer this question, what progress has been made in the quantity of munitions produced since the new Department was established, and is that progress satisfactory to the head of the Department itself. I should be quite satisfied with a response in the affirmative simply and solely on that single point; in other words, what is the comparative increase of production compared with what it was before the new Department started. I quite recognise that perhaps—
I am afraid these matters are hardly relevant to this Bill. This is a Bill which deals with the relations between employers and the employed and with the Government as employers and the employed, and suggests Amendments to the original Act. The prospect which the right hon. Gentleman is opening out is of a very much wider description.
May I just say what I think will satisfy my right hon. Friend, namely, that I propose on Monday to make a statement on these very points.
I thank the right hon. Gentleman very much.
When my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Cowan), produced his Resolution against the Bill proposed by the Government yesterday he said the proposals were unconstitutional and undemocratic. I think he will agree with me that we virtually said the same thing when the original Munitions Bill was introduced, and in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) I would say that we gave no blind adhesion at all to certain principles that the Bill contained, and that the reason we supported the Bill was that, although we thought it unconstitutional and undemocratic, we were at war and willing to do what we could for our country. That was the reason we gave our support to the Bill and we strongly urged that certain provisions in it ought to be altered. We from these Benches who were speaking from our practical experience stated that certain difficulties would arise. They have arisen, and have caused considerable friction where none need have been at all. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) declared that he did not like the position. Neither do we. If the Government had endeavoured to work out the matter by partnership of labour and capital instead of by compulsion, it would have been more heartily welcomed. But the House must remember that this Bill includes what we call the Treasury Agreement, where the representatives of the organised workers of the country came to an understanding with the representa- tive of the Government. That, however, did not appear to satisfy certain people. Some of us believed, and we have carried it out—I will refer to the method of doing it in a moment—more by partnership and consultation than by force, that instead of putting the agreement under the force of law, they ought to have done it by the ordinary method. The House will remember, however, that there was considerable excitement in the House and country. Conscription was in the air, both military and industrial, and that was the reason for some of the things that were included in the original Act. The main object of the original Act, we were told, was to prevent strikes and lock-outs. I say the Treasury Agreement did that, and that the great bulk of the representatives of the organised workers carried that out. If there have been a few, as there have been, then they come from a quarter of which the Minister of Munitions knows the most.
The other part of the object of that agreement, and of that Bill, was to suspend certain trade customs and rules—not the trade union rules so much talked about, but trade customs that have come down to some of us from the time when some of our guilds were still in existence, and mainly through the efforts of the organised workers of the country. That, again, was met, and we have succeeded, and wherever it has been done—I have met both the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench (Dr. Addison) and the Minister of Munitions as well—we have had to explain in many cases that the cause of the trouble was that the Act was not properly understood, not rightly worked, and that it was a very long way from being impartially administered. This partiality of administration by a certain section of the Courts is what has created the intense friction that there is in certain quarters. I want to put it to the Government and to the House that I do not approach this question in any spirit of antagonism. But we do want the members of the Government to come down from their academic platform to our practical platform and work the matter out on practical lines. That is our contention, and if they had done that before there would have been less difficulty. My hon. Friend the Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge) asked the Minister for Munitions on the 1st July, when the original Bill was in Committee, to accept an Amendment:—
Take the case that has caused so much" trouble—the Govan case. There we are told, rightly or wrongly, the assessors were not consulted as they might have been. This case has been made a great deal of by certain people whom it did not personally concern—I am told with some ulterior object. That may be so. We will find out later. Some of us have had to bear a considerable amount of abuse and anathema from the quill-drivers, but most of their statements and insinuations are not only untrue, but, in the words of the day, they are a dashed lie, a malignant lie, a mischievous lie. It would appear that none of the extenuating circumstances were taken into account by the Court. Now, I understand, they have been brought out by Lord Balfour's report. We cannot understand why the sheriff gave such a—I do not want to use too strong a word—ridiculous sentence. It was out of all proportion to the offence. Those of us who know the offence, which in ordinary times is so common, were amazed that such a sentence should be delivered by anyone. If the object of the sheriff was to terrorise the men or make them more compliant, he of all men ought to have known from past experience that it would have the opposite effect—that it would set the heather on fire. This it did, and it made it all the more difficult for us who represent the organised workers to preserve the peace. Members of the Government know, however, that we did it, and how it was done; therefore we have all the more right now to ask them to come nearer to our view, especially when Lord Balfour has reported in our favour.
I come to the question of leaving certificates. In ordinary times a worker can leave when he likes, and the employer can discharge him when he likes—that is, subject to an arrangement with the organised bodies as to so many days' or weeks' notice, whatever it may be. In our craft it is what we call "sudden death"—no notice at all. Under that arrangement no difficulty occurs. That requirement you now take away from the worker, but you leave it with the employer. Where is the reciprocity that the Minister of Munitions promised us? Where is the equity of any such arrangement? We want to-have the equities that were promised in the discussion on the original Bill. If the worker cannot leave, the employer should be put on the same footing. He ought not to have the power to pay a man off. He ought to go to the same tribunal as the workman. If that were done it would clear away 90 per cent. of the friction. I have a number of cases with which I do not want to weary the House, as they are all of the same nature. Here is one case, where a considerable number of workmen—over half a hundred—walked the streets for nearly five weeks before they obtained their leaving certificates, and when, after all that delay, they got them, the Court decided that the certificates were unreasonably withheld. I submit that those men ought to have been compensated. That is a matter that ought to be dealt with in the Amending Bill. Some Members say it is there. I shall be glad to see it. We want the Government to put into this Bill those principles of reciprocity and equity, and to do so in words which the workmen in the shipyard can understand, and not in the technicalities of the law. I was very pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman's (Dr. Addison) statement. He is always willing and obliging, and that is one of the reasons why I should like to press upon him the further consideration of this matter. [An HON. MEMBER: "Squeeze him a little more!"] It is not a question of squeezing the Government. If it was not for the War, we would soon make an alteration of the whole lot. But our country and our fellow workers in the trenches demand that every one of us should do his bit, whether we are in the trenches or at the benches or elsewhere.
Why has the hon. Gentleman made a difference in the Amending Bill as regards ship repairers? What does it mean? Does it mean that if a man happened to go to one of these firms on an isolated job, say, for three days, and that firm had some new work come in they would be able to say, "We have got you; you are here; you must go into the yard; you cannot leave "? We do not want to knock the bottom out of the Act, but we say that the Court ought to be the judge, and if a man can prove to the Court that by leaving a firm on one side of the street and going to a firm on the other he can better use his brains and his hands to the advantage of the country he ought to be allowed to go, and no individual employer should have the right to hold him. I think we stand on solid ground in making that contention. We must have a clearer understanding in reference to men on repairing work, because if they are liable to be discharged the moment a temporary job is finished, they must also be allowed to leave if they wish to do so. As to the dilution of skilled work, when the Treasury Agreement was made and embodied in the Act we formed joint committees of our craftsmen with the managers of nearly all the large yards in England, with the result that when a rush of work came, and a certain class of workers were required, these committees met together and, by the co-partnership system, if we could not put in the exact skilled men that were wanted we assisted the firms to get the nearest men to help them to get the work done as quickly as possible in the interests of the country. We are now told—I think we ought to have been consulted before such a large departure was made—that they are now applying that to private work. That is not in accordance with the Treasury Agreement. We were distinctly assured when our skilled members agreed for national war work, that it would not apply to private work for private profit. The Government say, "Oh, it is a controlled establishment, and we are going to control the profits." Yes, but when the workmen read the shipping papers and see that new ships are being sold at 50 per cent. over the prewar value, and old ships at 200 or 300 per cent. over the pre-war value, they ask where is the financial control there? The men say, "We do not believe it. We do not see why our skill, which is our money, should be taken out of our pockets and given for private profit. If there can be real control we will be as willing as any craftsman, to do our bit, because we agree that wherever possible we must carry on the ordinary work of the country for the credit of the country financially. But when we agree to that, we say also that if firms are going to put us on to private work for private profit we ought to be consulted, and some share of that profit ought to come to us as co-partners." I hope this matter will be made quite clear when the hon. Gentleman replies.
We have been discussing amongst ourselves for some time the question of imprisonment. The hon. Member for Lanark talked about the "penal code." I put it in the rough and ready style and call it "imprisonment." The firm who discharged these men were the first to break the law. They ought to have gone to the Munitions Court. The manager caused the dispute, and then, unfortunately, when our skilled men laid down their tools, they did not consult us, and we were put in the wrong. When the case went to the Court none of the extenuating circumstances were taken into consideration. We were told, "You have broken the law, and you must be punished." But for such a trivial thing, which has occurred many times before, there need have been nothing like so drastic a sentence as that which was given. I have now got this Report, and seeing that we are so much interested in the matter I trust the House will allow me to quote a little from it, because it thoroughly bears out our contentions and our views on the matter. First of all, in Clause 2 it says that the inquiry disclosed the fact that there were certain substantial matters of legitimate complaint. We want to see friction and irritation dealt with in a proper manner. In Clause 3 the Report goes on further to state:— have urged, and which are supported by the Report from which I am quoting. In Clause 7 the Report tells us that the definition of "munitions work" in the Munitions of War Act, 1915, is too restricted. This has excited considerable trouble in some quarters. The question as to the tribunal has been discussed considerably this afternoon. The Report suggests—and this is one of the points urged at our conferences on the Minister of Munitions and his supporters— Clause 17 refers to another one of the matters about which there has been considerable discussion amongst ourselves, as well as in the House here. That is the necessity for promptitude in dealing with any difference that may arise. Clause 17 says, concerning many of these differences, that "had they been promptly dealt with in their embryo stage there would not have been anything like the number." A great amount of friction and ill-feeling would have been avoided. I come finally to my main point, and that is the question of the penal code. No imprisonment is required in conection with these local Courts. I hold there should be none. I hold there should be no imprisonment in the higher Courts. I do not care what words are used. There is sufficient power to deal with the matter without imprisonment. If there is not sufficient power, it can be got. Here are the words of the Report:— shall have more confidence in them in the belief that the local tribunal is a domestic Court settling, so to speak, a domestic quarrel. I hope that when we come to the Committee stage the Government will consider very carefully a few of the suggestions of their own Court's Report, and carry out some of the suggestions we have made to relieve friction, and so that we may get on building all the ships we can, and get all the munitions we can, doing it all on a voluntary partnership basis, and not by compulsion.
It is rather a pity that on the Second Reading of this Bill we have not had the opportunity of hearing the promised statement of the Minister of Munitions. After all, we should like to have had more information than we have at present as to how the Act is working. Any statement the Minister of Munitions made would have been received with very great interest on all sides of the House. The Bill before the House is a very substantial modification of the Act which we recently passed. So far as I can gather, the modifications which are proposed are introduced more at the suggestion of hon. Members below the Gangway opposite than at the instance of anyone else. One has seen from statements which have appeared in the Press that hon. Members representing the Labour party have from time to time been consulted, and I should have thought that it was equally important that the employers, too, should have been consulted.
So they have.
At any rate, that has not been stated. The papers have been full of accounts of conferences between the right hon. Gentleman and the Labour Members, but not of conferences with the employers. There is one modification in regard to these clearance certificates which is most important. I do not quite know to what it will lead. I will confess that when the original Bill was passed I was in some little doubt as to how it would work, and how it would be accepted by the working classes. Undoubtedly in the greater part of the country the Bill has been well received, and has met with a great amount of success. The point which I wish to raise in connection with the clearance certificates is this: Under the law as it stands the employer is bound to give the workman a clearance certificate, unless he has some reasonable ground for withholding it. But whether the ground be reasonable or unreasonable is settled by one of the munitions tribunals. There have been a great many cases before these tribunals. As the Bill is framed a certificate has to be granted in every case, unless the workman is guilty of misconduct to obtain dismissal or discharge. That opens a rather important matter. A case was brought recently to my notice of men in a controlled establishment who had been working so as to get incorrect hours of work recorded in their favour. One man was detected tampering with one of the recording instruments and was discharged, and, under the Act as it stands, it would be possible for the employer to withhold his certificate. Now, however, the employer will be compelled to give the man a certificate, and I venture to think that that is a little unreasonable. In the case of men who are discharged for wilful misconduct I think some power should be retained by the Act enabling a munitions tribunal to decide whether or not a man should have such a certificate. Under the Bill as it modifies the Act, the employer, or the munitions tribunal, will have no such power, and the man will be entitled to his certificate as a matter of course. The hon. Member opposite shakes his head, but that is my reading of Clause 4, Sub-section (2), unless the tribunal is of opinion that the workman was guilty of misconduct for the purpose of obtaining dismissal or discharge—not guilty of misconduct in the direction of doing some highly improper act, but misconduct for the purpose of getting his discharge. I do not think that the modification which is proposed in this direction is altogether wise, because without a doubt, in the great majority of cases, the Act is working fairly as well as we had any right to expect. And I think the Government ought to hesitate before they undo, at what I think is simply the instance of the trade unions, the good work that they have accomplished in the past.
There is another provision, that there shall be no endorsement on the certificate. There is a great deal to be said both for and against this question, and I am inclined to think that, under the conditions which prevail, the Government are not far out in their recommendations; though, on the other hand, it is a distinct control, and, after all, we want to control the unruly men. The right which the employers up to recently have exercised of putting on certificates the reason men have been discharged is a distinct control. You do not have trouble with the overwhelming mass of men. You have this legislation aimed at the few unruly spirits here and there who are unaccustomed to discipline, and who resent anything in the nature of discipline as being an interference with their liberty, and I think the House is not acting with the greatest wisdom in relaxing the penal Clauses of this Act. There is another point to which I wish to refer, and that is the week's notice. The Act proposes that the employer is to give a man a week's notice. Is the man to give the employer a week's notice or is he to be free, as he is to some extent at present, to follow the custom of many districts and "down tools" at an hour's notice? Of course, there is machinery with regard to controlled establishments by which you can stop a man leaving his work, but before you introduce a provision of this sort, which is an entirely new departure, requiring an employer to give a week's notice, I think the obligation to give notice should be made mutual and extended to the workmen. It was not so many years ago the custom in London to give a week's notice on either side. The unions fought against it, and the custom was reduced to an hour's notice. I must say I should much prefer to see the old custom restored, and a week's notice given on either side. I am certain that it would be better for the men and certainly better for the employers.
There is just one other point I desire to touch upon. Remarks have been made about these new factories which are being constructed, where the contractor is being paid the cost of his labour and material and is given a percentage on those two items for his profit. To my mind, there is no more wasteful way of setting to work. It is impossible to conceive more reckless extravagance on the part of the Government than to enter into large and important contracts in that manner, because it simply means that the contractor is not interested in looking into the question of wages; he pays without murmur any wages which are asked, and he is not interested in hurrying the job. The longer the job takes the better it will be for him, and the more the materials cost the greater the profit also. I should have thought it would have been better for the Government to have undertaken work of this character by means of direct employment than to have gone to outside contractors, because I do know that in certain districts the rates of pay for unskilled labour have been enormously increased by the wages which these contractors have paid, and increased out of all proportion to the value of the work done. And when you increase the pay of the unskilled labourer, then, of course, you get great dissatisfaction amongst the skilled workers, because they say that if a man was worth 28s. a week before the War, and since the War is able to earn double pay, that they, the skilled workers, ought also to get double pay. As the hon. Member who spoke last pointed out, a great deal of trouble with the working classes is caused by jealousy. Jealousy is the underlying cause of a great deal of the disturbance and unpleasantness which occur, and, as the hon. Baronet below me points out, it is not always confined to the working classes. But that method of working is, to my mind, very costly and very wasteful, and I do hope that the Minister of Munitions will see if it is not possible to work by means of lump-sum contracts, or to undertake by direct employment the erection of these factories.
It is proposed by this Bill to widen the definition of munitions of war, and I would ask the hon. Member opposite if he would consider the question of including railways, because railways, and the work which is required of railways, are just as much munitions of war as shells and guns. If we have not got railways—and by the term "railways" I mean all classes of railway equipment—you are unable to move your shells and your guns to the front, or to places where they are wanted. Turning to another point, I also hope that the Minister of Munitions will take steps in the direction of settling the basis upon which medals are to be issued after the War to the war workers. I am certain that if he settles some rules based on the average hours which the men work per week, and upon continuity of work, it will act as a great encouragement to the men. You will have to have some basis, and the sooner a basis is started the sooner employers will commence keeping records, and the sooner one will see how things are going. I am sure the workmen would welcome medals issued on the basis which I have indicated, and I am certain that, if the right hon. Gentleman will deal promptly with this matter, he will find that it will be of the greatest possible benefit to the work which he is endeavouring to carry out.
The hon. Member who has just sat down has made a speech typical from the employers' point of view, and part of the speech, at least, showed that he is anxious to have the Munitions Act quite as much from the standpoint of the interests of the employers as from the interests of the nation. Now I am quite sure that it is not the intention of the House that this Act should be used from the standpoint of a particular class, but that, so far as any relaxation is made of rules and the like, it should be made purely from the standpoint of the crisis through which the country is passing. I claim that there is need for this Amending Act, and I congratulate, with others, the hon. Gentleman (Dr. Addison) on the exceedingly clear statement that he made this afternoon. There is no good trying to hide the fact that there has been dissatisfaction, and in some places a great deal of dissatisfaction, about the working and the administration of this Munitions Act. There is far more complacency among some Members here with regard to this particular legislation than among many of the people inside the workshops and factories. The Act, when it was originally passed, as the hon. Member for Lanarkshire stated, was passed at a time when there was a scare about the shortage of munitions of war. I am not challenging that for a moment, but what I am saying is that, in view of the conditions of mind that Members and the outside public as well were in at that time, almost anything would have been passed through the House with very little criticism and very little examination.
6.0 P.M.
I believe, personally, that so far as the shortage was a real thing it was due far more at that time to the lack of good business organisation at the top than to any fault so far as the workpeople were concerned. Side by side with that a good thing was done in trying to secure prompt and just arbitration in regard to any trade dispute rather than having any strikes which I am sure nobody desires at the present time. There was a need for the modification of the rules, which were more applicable to peace conditions than to present circumstances. Several Clauses of the Munitions Act went far beyond that, and you had repressive, penal, and irritating Clauses which have done nothing to increase output, but have by their irritation endangered the increase of the output of munitions of war. Some of the employers say that they have never been keen for this legislation. When we come to get the evidence given before the Glasgow Inquiry, it will be found that it was stated there by the secretary of the Employers' Association in Glasgow at the inquiry over which Lord Balfour of Burleigh presided that the demand was that the associations of employers were not consulted, but that consultation took place between the Minister of Munitions and the Trade Union leaders. When friction has arisen in regard to this matter, employers and directors have been rather anxious to throw the responsibility off their shoulders on to the broader shoulders of the Minister of Munitions. I have here a speech that was made by Mr. Carter, the managing director of the firm of Cammell, Laird and Company, Limited. They had a case where a number of men had been brought into the Munitions Court at Liverpool in October for loss of time, and a great deal of dissatisfaction had been created. Here is a report of Mr. Carter's remarks. He said to the men: which the hon. Member who has just sat down has spoken. The hon. Gentleman opposite does not want any relaxation of the rule in regard to leaving certificates, and he wants the employers still to have the power, even if he dismisses a man, of refusing this leaving certificate. That is unjustifiable, and nothing has caused more discontent in certain places than where the employer has discharged men, and by refusing them certificates he has not only sacked them but has prevented any other employer for six weeks from employing them, and for that time the men have had to remain idle. That is an unreasonable position and I am very glad that it is intended to deal with that point under this Bill.
I do think that the Bill is going to make very real and substantial improvements, but in my opinion it is still going to leave a good many gaps, and I hope that we shall be able, with fuller time—because there will be no question involved of holding back munitions of war—to examine this Bill carefully. I hope we shall be able to put down Amendments to meet the points which we regard as important. I should like to say to the right hon. Gentleman that I think the Clauses dealing with women workers will give very general satisfaction. I have myself brought cases to the notice of the Ministry of Munitions, showing that a poor woman is legally debarred from leaving one place where she is getting bad or sweated wages in order to go to another place where she could get better wages, and the Minister of Munitions has not taken power to see that she is properly paid when she has gone to another place. I think it is only reasonable that we should have that power, and I hope that the Minister of Munitions, who has the courage of his convictions, and has stood up to the workmen in the past, will now stand up to the employers and take this power and enforce it, and see that these conditions are enforced for all the women working under such conditions. I should like something done with regard to overwork and Sunday labour, and I hope we shall be able to put it into the Bill that a workman who has worked seventy hours a week is not afterwards going to be punished because he refuses to work on a Sunday. We have cases where men have been brought before the munitions tribunal for losing three hours in the morning, although these men have been able to show that they have worked eighty hours during the week. It is wrong to penalise men who have worked eighty hours, because in many cases they have worked themselves to a physical standstill, and a rest becomes a physical necessity.
I think it is very essential, since the workpeople are no longer free to strike, that there should be some very prompt means of meeting and remedying the grievances and the difficulties which arise from time to time. I am not satisfied with the present arrangement in regard to the Board of Trade, and the methods of dealing with these matters by means of arbitration. The Board of Trade sometimes arbitrates, and sometimes it does not. If people are not free to strike, the Board of Trade should be compelled to arbitrate every time workpeople or employers make a demand for arbitration. The present Act says that these matters should be referred to the Board of Trade within a month, but these matters ought to be settled by the Board of Trade within a month, and I could give the right hon. Gentleman cases especially affecting women workers, where they have appealed for arbitration three months ago, and where the matter has been hung up month after month and nothing has been done. Can we wonder that dissatisfaction has been produced among the workpeople under these circumstances? If they are not free to strike they should have a prompt tribunal to which they may bring their grievances to have a settlement effected. It seems to me that when the matter affects a very strong and powerful trade union, in a well-organised industry, their grievances are attended to, but if it only affects a handful of unskilled workers there is far less haste on the part of the Board of Trade to deal with the matter. I claim that the weak workpeople have as much right to protection as the strong, and I hope the Minister of Munitions will look into that matter. There is need for seeing that further powers are taken in this respect, and that the Board of Trade is compelled to act when either the workpeople or the employers demand arbitration.
There is one other matter I desire to deal with, and that is the question of the tribunals. Like the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Wilkie) and the hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge), I am not satisfied with the present tribunal. I know it does not matter very much whether I am satisfied or not, but I know the great mass of working people are not satisfied with the present tribunal. The tribunal works out in this way: You have a workman's assessor and an employer's assessor and an independent chairman who, practically ninety-nine times out of a hundred, is a lawyer, and the whole power to give decisions and enforce judgments is vested in the hands of this chairman, the assessors having no voice in the matter at all. We are now going to get as a concession a provision that the chairman of the tribunal has to consult the assessors. I suppose that means that up to the present he has not been obliged to consult them and could give his decision absolutely as if the workman's assessor and the employer's assessor was not there at all. We have cases where chairmen have said to their assessors, "You have nothing to do with this matter; you stand aside, and allow me to settle it." That has been done, and it has caused a great deal of friction. I am sure it is bad business, because these lawyer chairmen take far too strict a legal view of matters concerning which time and again that view ought not to be taken. As my right hon. Friend knows, many of these are emergency offences which in the ordinary way would not be considered offences at all, and in regard to which very often a word of friendly advice to the workpeople would do more good than having a strict view and having a feeling that the Court is anxious to inflict some kind of punishment, and a feeling that that is the only object for which the Court exists. If a friendly word were spoken to the workmen reminding them of their responsibilities it would do more good than these penalties, which cause a great deal of deep-rooted dissatisfaction. There are cases I know which have been brought to the tribunals where the workman has done an absolutely unjustifiable thing, and nobody would say anything else; but many of them are cases where the new law has been unwittingly, unknowingly, foolishly, and thoughtlessly broken, and it would be a good thing if the lawyer element was eliminated and something better put in its place. If you want to know what I think ought to be done in the matter, I would like to see something in the nature of Arbitration Courts equally representative of employers and workmen, who know the conditions far better than any outside lawyer. If employers and workmen were brought together in an Arbitration Court, consisting of equal numbers, with the State represented by some outside person, I believe it would be an infinitely better thing. I also think that all members of the Court ought to be able to give an equal vote I do not believe that you ought to have assessors who, when the time comes for giving a decision, find themselves absolutely powerless and unable to give any vote at all. That is what happens now, and that is what gives the impression to the workman that he is not getting a fair trial and that his side of the case is very often not properly urged.
I now come to the question of imprisonment. I wish very strongly to support what was said by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Wilkie). There is in this Amending Bill a provision that where a. man commits perjury in Court, where he gives false information for the purpose of misleading, he ought to be handed over to a Court which will have the power to imprison him. I am quite willing to accept that, but apart from that the power of imprisonment in the original Act ought to be taken away altogether; it has done far more harm on the Clyde than any good that has come out of it. If the right hon. Gentleman has any doubt upon the point I would ask him to turn to the Report of the Committee appointed by himself, and to see in paragraph 18 what Lord Balfour of Burleigh says. Lord Balfour of Burleigh is not a very revolutionary person, and yet this is what he said after investigating the facts in regard to the Clyde:— any consultation with the workmen. I want the right hon. Gentleman, when he comes to reply, to tell us what he means to do in this regard. I am not even satisfied that he himself should have all power vested in his hands in regard to the making of all sorts of new rules and regulations. I am quite sure that he does not want to be an industrial dictator, and I think that when he does draft these matters they ought, at the very least, to lie upon the Table and be subject to the criticism of the House of Commons. They ought to be subject to arbitration or some method by which you can persuade the workman that a fair thing is being done.
I want to throw out a suggestion with regard to the controlled establishments. I am quite sure it will not commend itself to the majority of the Members of this House, but it will come sooner or later whether Members approve of it or oppose it. If you are really going to have controlled establishments, the workpeople should have a share in the control as well as the employers. I am also absolutely convinced that if you can devise machinery by which the workpeople would have a real control in regard to labour conditions, you would remove a great deal of the friction which from time to time arises. Many points could be settled if they were dealt with by some committee composed of representatives of the workmen and of the employers, able thus to come together face to face.
Hear, hear.
I am very glad to have a convert in the Minister of Munitions, and I hope that something more will be done in that direction. I want to impress upon the right hon. Gentleman that all experience goes to show that, so far as British workpeople are concerned, you are not going to get the best out of them either by compulsion or semi-compulsion. It is not their nature. I quite understand the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond), but that is not the point of view which will commend itself to the mass of the workpeople in this country, and they will resist it. I do not believe anybody in this House desires strikes and lock-outs and labour struggles, at any rate, until the country wins through this war, and I say as one who desires peace, that I believe peace can best be based upon goodwill, upon mutual understanding, and upon persuading the workpeople that you are giving them a fair bargain, rather than by any courts of arbitration, fines, or compulsion. They ought to be regarded as partners in the work of the country. There has been far too much scolding of them, far too much moral lecturing of them, and far too little real understanding of them. The right hon. Gentleman this morning repudiated very strongly some statements which he regarded as being untrue and not representing justly what he said. I have not made these charges. I think that what did happen on that occasion was that a speech made by the right hon. Gentleman himself was taken up by all sorts of other people and by the newspapers, and exaggerated until the opinion was very widely created that large masses of the workpeople were spending their time in drinking, and all the rest of it. Since that time we have had charges of slacking, and so on. The right hon. Gentleman will be the very first to admit the tremendous value of labour's services to the State either in days of peace or in times of war, and I am quite sure as time goes on that the workpeople and their representatives both inside this House and in the country will become less modest than probably they have been in the past, and will demand for the mass of the people that they should have their fair share of all the good things of life, and that they should participate fully in the economic and industrial life of the nation.
I certainly have no reason to complain of the tone of the Debate, or of the criticisms which have been directed either against the original Act or against the Amending Bill which is now before the House; in fact, most of the criticisms have been, in effect although not in form, speeches in support of the Bill. Take the criticisms of my hon. Friend who has just sat down (Mr. Anderson). There was hardly a criticism, except one, which was not in itself a commendation of the Bill. If only he had ended his criticism by saying that criticism was met by such and such a Clause in the Bill, his speech would have been absolutely perfect. Perhaps I had better take the general criticism first before I come to some of the details. Some of them are matters which are going to be dealt with in Committee. Take, for instance, the question of imprisonment. It is not really so easy as some of my hon. Friends seem to imagine to decide that point. There has only been one case of imprisonment. It occurred in Glasgow. Why did it take place? It was not because the workmen could not pay. On the contrary, all their fines were tendered for them, I believe, by a trade union, though I do not care by whom. These three workmen refused to allow their fines to be paid for them; they deliberately chose imprisonment. It was really the sort of episode to which we have been accustomed in another agitation during the past nine or ten years. They copied the Suffragists' methods.
The passive resisters.
And, as my hon. Friend points out, they were in apostolic succession to the passive resisters. It must not be taken that this is a sort of fine and imprisonment inflicted by the Court upon workmen. They refused to allow the fines to be paid for them, and they deliberately chose to go to prison instead. That was the position in that case. When we come to the Committee stage we can consider the matter; but I want to clear the ground at any rate to that extent. There was another criticism on a point of detail, which perhaps I might dispose of now. It came from my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond). He criticised one or two things in the administration of the original Act founding the Ministry of Munitions and the two or three Amending Acts. With regard to a good deal that he said, I am in complete sympathy; but, when he complains that the Labour Exchanges have not helped to the extent that they might have done in furnishing workmen for munition work, I am bound to point out to him the fact that during the present War the Labour Exchanges have supplied through their agencies 500,000 workmen to munition works, and they are doing at the present moment the very thing which my right hon. Friend suggested that they should do. Whenever anyone goes to them suggesting that they are fit and proper persons for munition work and have got the necessary qualifications, they do their very best to find employment for them. The misconception has arisen in this way: The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that; there is a certain class of workmen for whom you must get a specialist staff. That has been particularly the case with regard to machine-guns. We have had machinery standing idle, although we have had thousands of skilled workmen whose services we could tender to that firm. Why? Because you wanted a certain number of special men to set up the machinery. They must be men who have had a very long training and have a special aptitude for that particular class of work. They are experienced men, and it is very difficult to get hold of them. Very often we find we cannot avail ourselves of the services of other skilled men because machinery has got to be set up by that class of men. I repeat the Labour Exchanges have provided half a million of our munition workers in various parts of the country.
Then we have had criticisms with regard to the emergency men. We have anticipated that criticism. The emergency man is not merely a man for construction work. Our difficulties have not been with construction. The emergency man is more useful in the setting up of machinery in a building once it has been erected. A suggestion has been made that we should organise a company of emergency men to go from one works to another to set up machinery which is lying idle for lack of the services of such men. It is a most admirable suggestion and we are already dealing with it. Now I come to criticisms on the character of the Act and the object which it is destined to serve, and why we are retaining, even in the Amending Act, the penal powers of the original Act. Why do we stand by compulsion to the very limited degree we do? I will tell the House quite frankly. You cannot have one-sided compulsion. I would ask my hon. Friend whether he would be prepared to apply compulsion to employers to the extent which we do not merely in this Act, but in another Act which is part and parcel of the same legislation—the Defence of the Realm Act—and have no compulsion of any sort applied to the unwilling and recalcitrant workman? That was not the view taken by the trade union leaders. As long as compulsion is applied rigidly to employers they are willing to accept the counterpart of compulsion for the workmen under certain conditions. [An HON. MEMBER: "But not imprisonment."] Of course, if they pay the fines they will not be imprisoned. There is exactly the same law for the employer. There is no distinction, except it be that in the case of the employers the fines are heavier.
What are the provisions which apply to employers? Take the Defence of the Realm Act, and the Munitions Act which supplemented it. What powers did we take? We took powers not merely for controlling the works, but for taking any works we required for munition purposes. We took full powers to take all works, and in some cases where employers declined to carry out essential orders we actually threatened to take over their works. More than that, we took full power to take over the whole of the machinery. These powers have been exercised. We have removed the machinery to works in other parts of the country where it was more required. We took full power to take over all materials. We have used those powers to the full. By means of these powers we have kept down prices of materials required for munitions, and a saving of at least ten, fifteen, or twenty millions has been effected by the exercise of these powers in taking over the whole metal trade of the country under this very Act. These are the compulsory powers.
You have taken powers to take over works, and the employers go for a long holiday if they like.
I should be very sorry to see the employer take a long holiday, or anybody else who is prepared to render service to the country. There are many employers without whom it would be absolutely impossible to carry on the works. Does my hon. Friend know what difference it makes whether you have a particular employer at the head of the Department or whether he is taking a holiday? I would like him to go to the Munitions Department for a week and see. What is the other power? I propose to deal with these points now because this is the only place where I can answer the criticisms which are made—not so much here as outside or in the Lobby. The other power we have taken is to control and restrict the profits of these establishments. I have been told that it is a pure sham and not a reality. Let me tell the House what it really means. My hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mr. Pringle) practically stated to-day that the Excess Profits Tax was the more severe one. I told him the other day that where the profits are large the Munitions Act drops much more heavily on the employer. Where they are small the Excess Profits Tax drops the more heavily on the employer.
I will give the House some figures which I can verify as a result of personal investigation. Take the case of a firm whose standard profits during the two years preceding the War were £12,000. Their profits, let us say, during the first year after the Munitions Act was passed went up to £120,000. That is the case of a firm making very big profits out of the War. What would happen in that case would be that you would add one-fifth to the standard profits of that firm, who would be allowed £14,400, and the rest would go to the Exchequer. But that firm would be entitled to say, "We have increased the output enormously by our exertions." In that case the Minister of Munitions would have full power to make them an allowance in respect of that increased output. But they cannot have an increase of one-fifth of the profits as well as the allowance for output. If you give them an allowance of £5,000, the total they would receive would be £17,000, and the rest would go to the Exchequer. Under the Excess Profits Duty what would happen would be that £53,900 would go to the Exchequer. In the other case £103,000 would go to the State. Thus, where the profits are large, the Munitions Act makes a larger levy upon them than the Excess Profits Duty.
Take now another case—a case where the profits are doubled. Take the case of a firm making £l,500 a year. If you double that, the profit becomes £3,000 a year. What would happen in that case? One-fifth would be added to the £1,500, making the total £1,800, and £1,200 would go to the State. But if, under the Excess Profits Tax, you take 50 per cent., what would happen would be that £1,500 would be deducted out of the £3,000, and half of that £1,500—£750—would go to the State. My hon. Friend has only to work out the figures for himself and he will find it is entirely a question whether the profits are considerable or whether they are small. He will find that the levy which is made upon the employer where the profits are very large—and there are many firms whose profits are very considerable indeed—under the Munitions Act is a very considerable levy, and in addition it prevents the possibility of a suspicion of the regulations and powers of the Munitions Act being exploited by the employers for their own benefit. The benefit inures directly to the State rather than to the employer. That is part of the bargain. I want to make perfectly clear, owing to the criticisms directed to this part of the original Act, and owing to the suggestion that it has not been a substantial and real levy upon the employer, what the provisions are. These are the four provisions where compulsion is introduced for the employer. Would my hon. Friend eliminate these compulsory powers so far as the employers are concerned—I am sure he would not—the control of the State over these works, the levy for profits, the power which the State has of taking over these works and taking over machinery and materials, compulsory powers which we are exercising every day in a good many of these firms? If you have compulsory powers for employers and exercise them from day to day you cannot complain if there are also compulsory powers for those who are working under those firms. The trade union leaders do not complain. I have seen not merely the trade union committee, but the trade union representatives on the works—hundreds of them—and when the proposition was put to them whether they wanted one-sided coercion or compulsion they practically all repudiated it. Those who wished to make it merely a one-sided affair of that kind were an exceedingly minority. That is the position with regard to the compulsory powers which are taken in the Defence of the Realm Act and in the Munitions Act. It is perfectly true we are modifying some of those powers. We have profited by experience. But it is a mistake to say that the Munitions Act has not succeeded. Quite the reverse.
Strikes in munitions works have been all but unknown since the passing of the Munitions of War Act. There has been no strike affecting more than a single establishment at a time. There have been only three strikes of any importance or lasting more than five days, and in each case the strike ceased the day after proceedings had been taken under the Munition of War Act, and fines had been imposed in each of the cases. The offence was a very serious one. It was in an Admiralty yard. Prosecutions were instituted, fines were imposed, and the men went back to work. What is still more important is that there have been many cases where trouble has been averted by calling the workmen's attention to the powers of the Munitions Act. From that point of view we have succeeded in preventing strife and dissension stopping work, and thereby interfering seriously not merely with the output of shells but with the turning out of essential work, upon which the Admiralty so much depend for the protection of our commerce and the command of the sea. One of my hon. Friends asked me whether there was a single case in which an additional shell had been turned out in consequence of the Munitions Act. It is not only a question of shells. There are questions—vital questions—such as that of turning out submarines. I could give him cases where, in consequence of the Munitions Act, there has been undoubtedly an increase in the output of Admiralty work. The worst cases, I am sorry to say, are cases which deal with Admiralty work rather than with the work for which I am specially responsible, and which I have indicated to the House before.
I am not going into the question of what I said in June. My hon. Friend the Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle) challenged me in regard to that. I do not recede from a single word I said then. He and I do not agree. Many of my hon. Friends do not agree with me. I do not recede from what I said. I still say that the State ought to have the right, in any great emergency where the life of the nation depends upon it, to demand the services, the wealth, and the resources of every citizen. I do not recede from a single syllable which I said then. The Munitions Act is not a carrying out of that; it is an alternative to it. Why is no Munitions Act required in France? Because they, being a perfectly democratic State, have taken the other and wider view, that they have the right to commandeer every resource, every power, life, limb, wealth, and everything else for the interest of the State. That is why you have no Munitions Act there. The Munitions Act is an alternative to that, and is not the carrying out of that in the least. It is purely an expedient, because you have not adopted the wider principle. I am not arguing for or against it, but my hon. Friend challenged me, and I am bound to accept his challenge. This is the only way in which you can act in the absence of a general organisation of that kind in the State. It is the only way in which you can possibly carry on the work. It is said it is an interference with liberty. So in every law. It is said it is an interference with the pure, unfettered right of the subject. Every law is that. The only point is whether it is essential in the interests of the State at this moment. I have not the faintest doubt that it is absolutely essential, and that it is impossible to carry out the work of the State without powers of this kind.
My hon. Friends say, "When you talk about the majority of the workmen in this country, it will be far better to appeal to their good will and their sense of patriotism." I agree with every word that has been said on that point. Nobody has done more than I have done in that direction. I have appealed to the workmen with every power I possess. I have done my best to appeal to them. Most of what I have done has been appealing. I am still continuing to appeal. I am going next week to see the workmen on the Tyne and the Clyde, with whom I have had some disagreements. I am going to meet them next week to talk the matter over. I am depending far more upon persuasion than I am upon the exercise of these powers. My hon. Friends know very well that it is not a question of dealing with a majority of the workmen, but of dealing with a minority, and a small minority. But these workmen, unless they are dealt with by every means, because they have not got themselves under the control of their own will, they dislocate the whole work, and they dislocate the whole of the machinery, and they interfere with the workmen who are anxious and burning to do their work—those men who are working eighty hours a week and longer. Why, at this very moment, a Committee which I have appointed is sitting to consider the question of these men who are wearing out their strength by their overwork. There is no doubt about it. You have got many—myriads of them in this country. What has happened on that Committee? They have condemned Sunday labour. We have already sent round a circular calling the attention of the employers to that, and asking them to the utmost possible extent to get rid of it. What I want to point out to my hon. Friends is this: the minority who are not doing their work are the people who are responsible for the overworking of the majority; they are adding to their burdens. What you want to do-is to equalise the burden and get them all to take their share. As to the prosecutions under this Act, there have been 2,000 or 3,000 prosecutions in all. There are between 1,000,000 and 1,500,000 workmen, and only 2,000 or 3,000 prosecutions. They were essential. In some of them, no doubt, you could make out a case against the decision. Is there any Court against whose decision you could not put up some sort of argument? There is no such Court. There have only been 2,000 or 3,000 prosecutions in regard to 1,000,000 or 1,500,000 cases of workmen. That is a very small item in the coercion of industry. Hundreds of those cases are those of employers. We have had to bring prosecutions indiscriminately against employers and workpeople, and if there are more prosecutions of workpeople than of employers it is because there are a thousand times as many more workmen than employers.
I ask my hon. Friends to help us to make this Bill a thoroughly satisfactory one. I heartily reciprocate the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for the Gorton Division (Mr. Hodge) when he said that as Minister of Munitions I had no captious critics among his friends. That is quite true. I heartily thank him, and I heartily thank them. I have never appealed to them for assistance without getting it. They have taken risks. I know the greatest risk a public man has to face. It is not to face his political or industrial enemies. The greatest risk a public man has to take is to face his own friends. I know that. If a man sincerely thinks that a course is necessary in the interests of his country, whatever the risk may be, there is no greater penalty a man can pay than to quarrel with his own friends. He is a craven, he is not worthy of the nation to which he belongs or of the struggle in which he is taking part, unless he faces it like a man. Let me say this to my hon. Friend: there is no man I know of whom it is more true than of him. I have read his speeches, I have seen his action in trade union conferences, private and public, and I know how he has faced criticism. I know how difficult it has been. How easy it is to misrepresent. He need not fear. His action was a straight and honourable one. In the long run the people of this country are a just people, and they will honour him all the more for the course which he has taken. When he tells me that, at any rate, he and his friends have not been guilty of any captious criticism, I agree. I have had nothing but co-operation from them, and I am very glad to be able on the floor of the House of Commons to say so at the present moment. His criticisms to-day have been fair, and when we come to the Committee stage I shall consider them in the spirit in which he advanced them. He and I have but one thing which we are seeking in this matter, and I am glad that we are seeking it together and working together, with his friends. We seek the victory of our country when it is standing champion for the cause of humanity.
I should like to say a few words on one or two points which crop up in this Bill. Clause 9 proposes to give power to call for the production of the cost sheets of munition factories. That is a very proper provision, and one which I am rather surprised not to have seen included in the previous Bill. It is absolutely essential that such powers, drastic as they are, should exist. Their object, of course, is to enable the Department to check the prices which the country has to pay for the munitions it needs. I am afraid, however, that already a very large amount of money has been lost through the fact that the country made contracts, in the earlier stages of the War, with firms for munitions of war, without guaranteeing the manufacturers against the necessity of entering into a certain amount of a gamble with regard to the outlay of capital necessary to make the machinery. In all those cases large sums of money had to be put down for plant, and the greater part of that plant will be entirely useless at the end of the War. If that element of gambling or risk had been removed at the beginning, I believe the Government might have secured their munitions at very much lower prices, and with equal or greater fairness to those who were responsible for their manufacture. I hope that, as far as the future is concerned, the Government will attempt to avoid throwing upon manufacturers any responsibility of a gambling nature, and will make use of these cost sheets with a view to seeing that they get close prices in the interests of the State.
The next point to which I wish to draw attention is the position of controlled establishments now, as compared with establishments which are not controlled and are subject to the Excess Profits Tax. Those companies which are subject to the Excess Profits Tax are protected by a Clause in the Finance Bill from being charged Income Tax in the future, under the three years' average system, on the proportion of their profits which they pay to the State. There is no provision of that kind in the Munitions Act, and there is no such provision in this Bill. As things stand now, I am perfectly well aware that it is not the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to charge Income Tax on those manufacturers for the proportion of their profits which are taken by the State, nevertheless, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that some uneasiness exists because there is absolutely nothing in any Statute to prevent them being charged that Income Tax in the future.
made an observation which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
7.0 P.M.
I believe it could be put right in the next Finance Bill, but it has not been put right in the present Finance Bill. I suggested that it should be put in, but I was unable to get my Amendment accepted. As things stand, it would be desirable that the right hon. Gentleman should reassert his intention, because the matter is causing some little uneasiness. I do not say it is a great deal. The fact remains, that legally they are responsible for the tax on the whole of their profits in the immediate future. The right hon. Gentleman told us how in the case of large increases of profit—or in fact of small increases, for in both cases he quoted the result was the same—the State acquired a very large proportion of the profits which were made in excess of those in pre-war times, and he also pointed out how the fact that the manufacturer remained at the head of the concern was in most cases of very great importance and value to the State. But under the system of division of profits in the Munitions Act, has the manufacturer who is at the head of the business any interest at all in making those profits as large as he can? The basis of division of profits in controlled establishments is entirely different and inferior to the system on which the profits are divided in the other establishments, subject to the profits tax, and I believe the system is entirely a bad one. However small the amount of excess profits you are going to allow to the manufacturer, it ought at any rate to be some fraction of the whole excess profit, so that, in order to make his portion as large as possible, he retains an interest in making the total profits from the business as large as he can. Under this system of the Munitions Act you give a manufacturer a definite, fixed profit, based on what his profits used to be before the War—one-fifth more than that. All the excess goes to the Treasury. Whereas in the case of other companies which are not controlled you take a proportion of the excess above a certain standard. But whether you take 50 per cent., 80 per cent., or 90 per cent. for the State, so long as you leave a manufacturer a fraction of the excess profit dependent on the whole, it remains, of course, to the interest of all those concerned in the management of the business to make that excess profit as large as possible; whereas under this system, which seems to me to be based on a completely wrong principle, there is absolutely no interest, once the profit is a fifth more than it used to be before the the War, to those who are concerned in managing the business to make the profit as large as possible. I do not mean to say that those who are managing businesses are not far too patriotic not to want money for the benefit of the State, but at the same time I think, human nature being what it is, it would have been wise to change the basis of the Munitions Act from a fixed fifth above the prewar standard and to make it a proportion, however small, of the total excess profits beyond the datum line which you took.
I want to raise a point on Clause 6. This deals with the extension of businesses which cannot possibly be controlled by the Minister of Munitions, and he has received advice from several quarters during the Debate to add to the number of controlled establishments. My right hon. Friend has plenty of courage, and I am sure courage might be needed to do this. But I hesitate very much, from the personal experience I have had of the matter, to advise him to do so. There is a good deal of uncertainty and anxiety as to what is being done with the more than 2,000 controlled establishments of which he is the master to-day. It is felt that in every case guarantees must be given and responsibilities taken, there must be a great variety of terms, and unless the conduct of the business is very carefully watched from the very beginning of the control it may end in enormous chaos. I hope, before he asks the House of Commons to increase the number of establishments which he proposes to control, he will be able to assure us that his Department is looking very carefully at this question, and that from the beginning they are keeping an account, and have established a Department under the care of which the chaos which is possible may be avoided. There will have to be a settlement some day, and I am quite sure, unless it is carefully watched, that when the day of settlement arrives the country will find there is almost indescribable chaos, and the object of my rising is to try to get an assurance that that question is being most carefully watched.
Many of the difficulties with regard to the transfer of labour are really occasioned by actual shortage. From my own experience I know that certain classes of labour are quite unobtainable. Only the Government can get them. The ordinary manufacturer and the controlled manufacturer cannot get them, and employers are often competing one against the other, and the difficulty of transfer arises very largely from this cause. I hope the Minister recognises this and keeps it in view in his own operations. I have often been afraid, with the number of works growing up which the Under-Secretary described today, that their completion will be very much hindered by the scarcity of particular classes of labour, and in this respect my right hon. Friend (Sir A. Mond) made a good point. There has been a good deal of difficulty in getting important men back from the front. Though you may get a permit from the War Office, it often very largely depends on the colonel of the regiment in which the man is serving, and there are even now a good many men still away with the Colours who would be of value if they could be returned to the industrial ranks. It would help the Minister of Munitions to start these works, which I am quite sure is a colossal enterprise, and I think it would alleviate a good deal of the friction in this respect under which the Act is at present working. I am glad to see he has a Clause relative to the employment of women. I hear a good deal, from the nature of the business in which I am engaged, of the various schemes which are likely to come forward, and I understand there is a factory at Gretna Green in which a very large number of girls are going to be employed. These girls will have to be brought into a district remote from ordinary habitation, and all sorts of lodgings and conveniences will have to be obtained for them, and I am glad to see there is a Clause in his Bill which will help him to overcome the difficulties, which I am afraid he might find very considerable indeed, when these works are in full operation. I hope the first point I named, of the absolute necessity of a careful audit and control of the accounts of the 2,000 controlled establishments which he already has in his possession, will not be overlooked, and that he will be able to satisfy what I am sure are legitimate apprehensions on this point.
I have had a good deal of experience in the working of the Munitions Act, and naturally a good deal of complaint has come to me in this connection, because of the thousands of members of the union with which I am connected, and the difficulties they are experiencing. I have been at many of these conferences alluded to by the Minister of Munitions, and I have been one of those who have agreed from beginning to end that something of the nature of this Act has been necessary, and it seems to me that the great difficulty has been this. It is, of course, an interference with the freedom both of the workman and the employer, and neither of them liked it. They have been used largely to have all their own way in these matters. It is new, and many of them on both sides are very conservatively minded, and they object to the slightest interference with their own sweet will in all that concerns their working lives. But it seems to me that in the main the difficulties which have arisen under the Act have arisen where the employer has had practically omnipotent power over the conditions of the workmen, and has used it unreasonably. Some of the difficulties as far as the workmen are concerned would come under exactly the same line. If all the employers and all the workmen were all reasonably minded people many of the difficulties which have occurred under the Munitions Act would in my judgment vanish into thin air, together, of course, with this: that many people, where they are exercised with a little trouble in this connection, seem continually to forget that this country is at war. There has been no need for an Act of this kind in France, and I suppose it would be equally true to say that there has been no need for an Act of this kind in Germany. The reason is obvious. In both those countries the State is omnipotent and can practically do as it likes both with the employers and with the men, and it seems to me that, while there has been a certain amount of complaint in this country, I think there will be nothing like the complaint in this country that there would be if the people of France and the people of Germany could ventilate their grievances in the same open fashion that the people of this country can. Besides that, I believe there is a section of the Press—a small section, I agree—and a number of individuals, too, in this country who have deliberately set themselves the task of creating trouble under this Munitions Act. I believe? good deal of the trouble is deliberately manufactured, and the men's minds are made uneasy because of statements which are made inciting them to some extent to create trouble under the Act. Some of the people who do this are opposed to recruiting. They are opposed to the War. They are and will be opposed to everything until they control the country themselves. But I believe that in the main the Act has worked well, and I believe the result of the working of the Act has been to speed up enormously the output of munitions of war. I think an overwhelming number of the workpeople of this country are willing and anxious to work in harmony with the Minister of Munitions, with the object that he and the workmen have so much at heart, namely, that this country may eventually come out of this great crisis victoriously. I believe, when this War is over, the workmen and the employers of this country, as well as the Ministry of Munitions, will be able to take, and I think will receive, great credit at the hands of the people of this country for the part they have played in this great business.
There are not many things really to complain about if the employers and the men, in cases where they have acted unreasonably, would act reasonably. The difficulty in the main is this, that the workmen look upon those parts of the Act which touch them with a sensitiveness that may seem to some people to be exaggerated. There is no doubt about this, that this Act has placed enormous power in the hands of some employers. Many of these employers have never recognised trade unionism—indeed, they have made it a boast that they have never yet negotiated with their workpeople; and when this power is put into the hands of employers of that kind, the House may take it from me that they sometimes use this power with a vindictive force against men, with the result that it makes the men revolt in such a way as would never even be dreamt of in ordinary circumstances. I know of a case of one employer who, because he was having some little trouble with his men—in this case they were Belgians—stopped a man at his work simply because the man had organised his fellows. They had asked that the same conditions of labour should exist in that factory as affected the ordinary skilled workers from one end of the country to the other. These Belgians had got to know that the English mechanics were getting certain terms for overtime and Sunday labour, and because these men had placed their demand before this employer this particular man was stopped, and the employer informed him that he was stopped with the idea of forcing him to go into the trenches along with his Belgian comrades who were defending a particular part of Belgium. That is not the spirit that this House wants to see or that the Minister of Munitions wants to see; but it is that kind of thing that has, in some places, created a very deep, keen, bitter feeling against this particular Act. I am very pleased to say that these kind of cases are rare, but it is wonderful how news of cases of this description get spread about among the workmen. Knowledge of them seems to fly almost like telegraphy, and you can hear about these incidentally rare cases in different parts of the country almost as soon as they occur.
There is another part of the Act I should like to deal with. Under the Munitions Act differences arise, but you cannot have a strike very well under the Munitions Act. I am very pleased to say that in the union with which I am connected, which has a membership of over 150,000, we have tens of thousands of men working under this Act, and the actual dispute or victimisation benefit in connection with all these men which before the War was costing the union £1,000 a week has, since this Munitions Act came into operation, dropped down as low as £5 a week, and in some cases to less than that. That is a tangible proof of the spirit that is being displayed by the workpeople of this country on a very broad scale. I think it indicates a spirit which is commendable, and shows a real degree of self-sacrifice. The point I want to deal with more particularly, however, is that where these differences arise they have got to go before a Court to have them tried. It is obvious under an Act covering so many thousands of men, where there have been enormous additions to the staff of men employed—in some cases the number of men has been trebled and quadrupled—that all sorts of differences in regard to wages, overtime, conditions of employment, etc., are constantly cropping up. There are enormous numbers of these cases to be dealt with, and the machinery to deal with these cases has not increased at the same rate that the cases have increased. The consequence is that having such a large number of cases to deal with the staff are already much overworked. There can be no doubt about that. They are working very diligently and very heartily, and on the whole, I think, excellently. I have no fault to find with their work in the main. The simple fact is that their ability to deal with the cases has not increased in the same ratio as the cases have increased, with the result that where differences arise the men have to wait week after week, and in some cases month after month, before they can get their cases heard. Men who may be asking for an improvement in their wages and conditions see men working in another factory on one side of the street whose wages have been increased, who are in receipt of war bonus and who have had their overtime rates improved, whilst these other men may go on waiting week after week and month after month before they get a settlement. I want to urge this point, that the very essence of the smooth working of this Act, however it may be amended, rests very largely on the speedy settlement of the differences that may arise. This particular section of the work is like a bottle-neck. It is difficult to get the whole of the cases through the narrow neck of the bottle. All I am asking is that the bottle-neck be widened a bit so that these cases may be dealt with much more speedily than in the past. I believe that if that be done there will be a great improvement in the feeling of the workpeople of this country.
There is another point arising out of the speech of the Minister of Munitions which I think will be helpful. The workmen of this country have had very vague ideas as to the way in which this particular Act affects the employers by whom they are engaged. The workmen have felt the keeness of the interference so far as they are concerned, but they have had a very vague and a very faint idea as to its effect upon the employers. They have sometimes said to me, "We cannot see that it has any effect upon the employers at all. We can feel the irksomeness of it; we are tied down here; we cannot get away. If we leave the firm we have to pass six weeks idly and lose six weeks' wages before we can get other employment." This is the feeling of the men, and it is there to be got rid of. I am pleased, therefore, to find from the speech of the Minister of Munitions the illustration he gave as to the effect of the Munitions Act on the profits of employers. I am sure of this, that if a few more concrete illustrations similar to that which he gave this afternoon could be circulated amongst workmen, and if, whilst they see that the effect of this Act may be onerous to them as workmen, they could see equally as plainly the onerous effect that it must inevitably have upon many employers who are now controlled firms, it would, to a certain extent, sweeten the pill as far as the workmen are concerned.
I have no very strong criticism to make as to the Act itself. I believe firmly, just as the Minister of Munitions believes, that some act of this kind was essential. We are up against a mighty proposition. There is no doubt about this, that martial law in Germany has enabled that nation to far outdistance this country in the production of munitions of war. We are working on the voluntary plan, but if we can get good will, and I believe we can, amongst the people of this country, which boasts the possession of some of the finest mechanics the world has ever seen, and if we can continue to work upon lines of good will and get men in the shops to realise the enormous need of their putting forth their best and most intelligent efforts in the production of all that is essential to carry this War to a successful conclusion, I believe that upon lines of good will we shall succeed eventually in surpassing everything that has been done in countries where compulsion is the rule. I hold myself free when the Amendments come before the House to play my part in regard to them, but in the main I confess that I am in complete agreement with the Act. I believe that the Amendments will be a great improvement on it, and will lessen much of the feeling which has existed in the country during the few months it has been in operation.
I should like to ask one or two questions of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions. With regard to the powers sought in this Bill, he proposes to take over gas, water, electric light, and certain other establishments of a similar kind, and also the power to build merchant vessels. I do not say that in the circumstances in which we are at the present moment those powers may not be necessary, but they are very large powers, and I trust that the Minister of Munitions will, if he finds it necessary to exercise these powers, exercise them in such a manner that there will be as little money spent as possible. We have heard nothing yet as to the cost of the Ministry of Munitions. It must not be forgotten that the cost of the Government is going to be a very great factor in the determination of this War. We have got to cut our coat according to our cloth. Our resources, though they are great, are not unlimited, and it is very necessary, in spending the money which we have got to spend in the future, that we shall see that when we spend a sovereign we get a sovereign's value for the expenditure of that sovereign. I do not think the Government have always followed that precept, and I am not sure that the Minister of Munitions has not, on very many occasions, been more extravagant than was necessary. I understand also that the Ministry of Munitions has been contributing to municipalities towards the cost of building houses. That may be all right. There are so few things nowadays that you cannot say may not be, under certain circumstances, all right, but all the same it is necessary that very great care should be exercised from the financial point of view.
There is one point as regards Clause 5 which deals with women which I would like to have cleared up. I do not quite see why it is necessary to give the Minister of Munitions power to settle the rate which is to be paid to women. Why should not they be paid the ordinary rates current in the district? I do not know whether there is anything in this Clause which I cannot fathom. It does look a little to me as if it might be a Clause which is going to fix a minimum wage, regardless of whether or not that minimum wage exceeds the rate of wages already paid in the district. I do not want to be too critical, but there again I would like to point out that it is absolutely necessary that the Ministry of Munitions, in concert with other Departments, must be very careful over expenditure. The country cannot afford to go on giving rates of wages which perhaps we would desire to give if we were in other circumstances, but which we cannot afford at the present time to give, because we cannot afford to go spending money wildly or extravagantly. We must, if we are going to win this War, spend our money in a businesslike and efficient manner. I think that is really an important point. We have not been yet told what the cost of the Ministry of Munitions is, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman who represents the Department will convey what I have said to his chief, so that, if possible, sooner or later, the House of Commons should be taken into the confidence of the Government, and be informed what has been the cost of the Ministry of Munitions during the past few months.
I desire to call the attention of the Minister of Muni- tions to Clause 14, which says, in Sub-section (1):
"In England and Ireland a member or officer of the munitions tribunal, or a constable or other person acting under the authority of a munitions tribunal, who has done or may hereafter do anything in pursuance of the principal Act or this Act, shall not be liable to any civil or criminal proceedings, whether on the ground of want of jurisdiction or any other ground, if such person has acted in good faith and with reasonable care."
I would observe that the Clause is unprecedented in any Act of Parliament that has ever been drafted or passed through this House. It is an Act of Indemnity before the event. I have heard and read of Acts of Indemnity after civil wars and other wars, but I have never yet found that an Act of Indemnity was passed before the event. However, it is not upon that ground that I wish to urge the reconsideration of this Clause so much as upon the ground that it refers to Ireland, where any official of the munitions tribunal or a constable may have a roving commission to do as he pleases. That may operate all very well in this country or in Scotland, where the people and the administrators of the law are upon friendly terms. These are conditions that do not prevail in Ireland, not through the fault of the people of Ireland, let me say in passing, but by reason of circumstances which are gradually passing away. At the present moment that feeling of reciprocity between the people and the administrators of the law which happily exists in those two countries, does not exist in Ireland, and to give Government officials and constables who are not on friendly terms with the people a roving commission of that character might lead to very disastrous results. There is in Ireland a great difference in the administrative and social conditions from those which obtain here; there is a great difference between the conditions that exist in Ireland and those that exist in this country and in Scotland. Allow me to point out that in all the recent laws in regard to the two countries there is a differentiation made between the provisions of Acts of Parliament that are passed for both countries. The Clause also provides that if anybody should take proceedings against a Government official or constable, those proceedings can be stayed at once by application to a Court of Law, or by application to the High Court, or to a judge of the High Court.
If either an official or a constable commit an act of persecution—because that is what very frequently arises in Ireland—if a constable or a Government official persecutes persons sometimes for private reasons, or exercise their authority and use the powers of Acts of Parliament of this kind in order to persecute certain persons, then, if an action is brought or proceedings of a criminal nature axe taken, they can be immediately stayed by the High Court or a judge thereof. I do hope, therefore, that this Clause will be reconsidered, and that its unprecedented character will be taken into account. If it is still thought necessary to enact it for England, Scotland, and Wales, I at least trust that Ireland will be deleted from the Clause. The conditions under which it would be put into operation would be entirely different. It may mean persecution—it would undoubtedly lead to much Inconvenience—and I trust that the omission of the word "Ireland" will be accepted by the Proposes of the Bill.
There are two or three points to which I would like to call the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions. The first point arises on Clause 6, in which the Government take a great many powers. I am told that in several munition areas the workers in munition factories have very great difficulty in getting to and from their work because the tramway facilities are not sufficient. Since the War has broken out those facilities have been very much diminished. I see no reason, when the Ministry of Munitions is taking over so many other matters which are of a kindred description, why they should not have some power to call upon the municipalities or upon tramway companies to provide a sufficient service to take workers backwards and forwards between their homes' and their work. Another point which has caused a considerable amount of trouble lately has reference to the question of badges for the workers. I have investigated the subject rather carefully, and I find that there are no rules at all made by the Ministry of Munitions with regard to badges. There is a printed paper which is headed "Regulations," but nowhere is it stated what is the employment that entitles men engaged in it to a badge. There are absolutely no definite rules of any kind, and I was informed that it is in the discretion of the officials of the sub- department, who have the absolute power of granting or refusing the badge to anybody, not merely for munition purposes, but also for war purposes. They refer the application to the War Office to get the views of that Department, and if the War Office says, "We want troops, and do not want badges," then badges are refused, unless in a case of great urgency, by the Badges Department of the new Ministry of Munitions. There is munition work direct and munition work indirect; it is very difficult to draw the line. Surely there ought to be some rule in regard to this matter of badges. It ought not to be left to an official of a Department who has uncontrolled discretion. As I remarked to an official, such a discretion is very liable to lapse into caprice, I have had a large number of complaints in my own Constituency and elsewhere of the difficulty experienced in getting badges. I do think the hon. Gentleman (Dr. Addison) and the Minister of Munitions ought to consider whether the time has not arrived when definite rules can be laid down, so that men can make application for badges, and not be simply told that their application is refused, without stating any ground, and that they may enlist in the Reserve or in the Army, even though they may be in occupations which, though indirectly connected with, are absolutely essential to the making of munitions. So much for the point with regard to that Clause. I wish further to refer to Clause 11, Subsection (2), paragraph ( a )—
"That in proceedings before a munitions tribunal the Chairman shall, before giving his decision, consult with the assessors."
That would appear to show that he has not done so previously. I have had many complaints that the gentleman who sits as chairman, with two assessors, gives his decision without consulting them. I suppose in some instances the gentleman, who may be a lawyer, has given his decision without consulting either of the two assessors, one of whom is an employer and another a workman. We know that the working classes object to arbitration in settling their disputes, but they feel obliged to take it under this Act on patriotic grounds. But they have an objection to an arbitrator, because they think that he has little or no intimate knowledge of their business or trade. Will the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions allow me to suggest that these two assessors should be the people to determine the matter. If the employer and workman agree, then the official who sits in the chair should be obliged to take that decision, and not give one of his own over their heads. Otherwise, what is the use of assessors if a legal gentleman can overrule them, though they understand the trade or business. In case the assessors differ, let the chairman have the casting vote or let him decide with which of the two he agrees. But, when they both agree, surely the decision of those two should be adopted, and the legal gentleman should not be allowed to make a decision overruling theirs, when in all probability he does not understand the ramifications and customs, and working of the trade or business concerned. There is only one more point, to go back to Clause 6. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) referred to the point which I desire to mention, and I have come to the same conclusion as he reached, on reading the Bill this morning. In Clause 6, Subsection (1), paragraph ( a ), occur the words
"and of any metals, machines or tools required for any such manufacture or repair, and of the materials of any class specified in an Order made for the purpose by the Minister of Munitions required for any such manufacture or repair."
There is such a thing as coal, which is not a material of manufacture or repair, but you might insert words which would cover such substances as coal and coke, and so on, which would enable you to get some control over the supply of coal. That is all the more important, because in paragraph ( c ). of Sub-section (1). you are going to take the supply of light, water, or power, in regard to which coke would be essential. I know from men of business experience that they have had recently a great deal of trouble in connection with electric light and gas companies, in getting coal in proper quantities at the proper time. I put these matters before the representative of the Munitions Department as suggestions for consideration, and, if necessary, I shall put an Amendment down, for in the materials required for munition purposes coal will be necessary for the carrying on of the manufacture.
The point to which I wish to call attention, and on which I wish to say a word or two, is what I think is the absurdity of the statement made by the Minister of Munitions with regard to the sacrifices of the workers—the surrender of their privileges and rights for which they have been fighting for a century or more through their trade unions. The right hon. Gentleman said that he must acknowledge the surrender of principles and privileges which they had won. He went on to say that the way he got them to do so was by controlling and coercing the employer as well. The form of that coercion was illustrated by the right hon. Gentleman. He said, in the first place, that by taking over the factories they had saved £15,000,000 in the purchase of material. That great sacrifice really amounts to this, that where the employer expected to make £15,000,000 of plunder out of the community he was prevented from doing so. I fail to see any great surrender in that. The right hon. Gentleman went on to give the case of two factories under control, and he contrasted the profits they made as controlled firms with those which they made in standard years before the War and what they were likely to have made were it not that they were controlled. His remarks, in my opinion, show that there is no parity between the sacrifices made by the employers, because they had not got as much plunder as they expected out of the community, and the sacrifices made by the worker in giving up his liberty in various matters. There is no comparison between the sacrifices of the employers and of a number of the trade unions, and which some of the trade unions decided not to make. I believe the textile workers are outside the provisions of the Act, and we well know the result of the only case in South Wales in which it was attempted to apply the Act. I am glad that the Bill is introduced, as it gives evidence of the feelings of the workers, and that a demand has arisen for the adjustment and amendment of the original Act, a fact which should be taken to heart by those gentlemen who think they are going to introduce other and wider measures of conscription and coercion. I desire to enter a protest against the assumption that the sacrifices being made by the employers are in any way equivalent to those being made by the workmen.
I need scarcely say I have not risen in any spirit of hostility either to the plan of the Bill or the work of this Department. I rejoiced when the Depart- ment was set up, and I would not like to be second to anyone else in the House in wishing it well and in doing anything I could to smooth its way. The points I wish to put before the House are not points of criticism so much as an attempt to labour out what is the problem the Department has to meet and why this Bill is necessary, and in some respects in my opinion needs strengthening rather than weakening. I am not at all sure that the hon. Member for Hanley (Mr. Outhwaite) is quite correct in his last point. I do not think there is much difference between the hon. Member and myself with regard to the wish that all workmen should be free, and not merely the munition workers under this Act in controlled establishments, but workers of any kind. The hon. Member for Hanley suggested that the sacrifices made by workmen under this scheme were considerably more than the employers were asked to make. That might be true if you simply took the statement of the Minister of Munitions with regard to the details of profit. I would remind my hon. Friend that in this legislation there is restriction upon the employer with regard to dealing with his workmen. In the ordinary way in an uncontrolled establishment the employer who is dissatisfied with his workmen may give them notice, and if he likes to go to extremes he can lock then out. He cannot do so under this Act. I think it should be recognised that the great power which employers have cherished probably more than any other, namely, the right to dispense with the services of their workpeople, is gone under a Bill like this. I venture to assert that it is a power which ought to go during the war in any works which are mainly concerned with Munitions of War. But I do say that it should be remembered that it has been done, and that that power has been taken away.
I know many employers throughout the country who would fight more tenaciously for the right to discharge whichever workman they pleased than, say, against a rise of wages. The hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Tootil), who sits before me, knows a good many pugnacious employers who would give way on financial points of considerable importance, but who would fight on points which they regarded as affecting their prestige. Therefore, I think the hon. Member for Hanley should not say to the working men that while they have parted with rights and liberties, the only compen- sating thing that the employer gives is to forego a part of his profit. That is only a partial statement. Not only does he forego the major part of his additional profit, but he loses a liberty with regard to his workmen, to which many of those employers attach great importance. My hon. Friend may not attach much importance to that, but I have been called in in two or three disputes under this Act, and I know I am not quite sure that this Amending Bill gives the Department enough power in dealing with one or two of those cases. When I was called in to arbitrate under the Munitions Act, and when I pointed out to the employer concerned that he had lost the control of his men in the sense that he could lock them out, he was almost ready to insult me. I produced a copy of the Munitions Act and of the Regulations and convinced him. Then he made some very disrespectful observations about Members of this House for passing any such legislation, and for interfering with the concern which he had organised. Of course, he cooled down, and I hope I had a little tact with him, and, at all events, I induced him to moderate his opinion. If I had not been able to produce the Act and the Regulation I would not have been able to convince him that he had lost that control over his own workmen which he regarded as his primitive right. Therefore, I suggest that this fact should be known. In fact, when the workmen were called in on the occasion to which I refer I made most play with that fact. They did not know that their employer could not lock them out, and when I showed them that that was contained in the Act they said, "If he cannot lock us out, then there is some good in the Act." I said, "Of course there is, it is not a one-sided Act at all." Therefore to that extent I wish to qualify what the hon. Member has said.
8.0 P.M.
The hon. Member also went into the question of the division of profits, and referred to two calculations. I must confess I was not able to follow the two instances which the Chancellor gave as being the two best he could select. I have been making some calculations, and I will give the House other instances than those which the Minister of Munitions gave in the course of his very important and powerful speech. He took first of all the case of a firm which made £12,000 profit, and he suggested that that should be multiplied several times. I think it was not an extravagant estimate, or an extreme case, although it is a strong case. He showed that under the system of control the firm was only allowed a fifth of any increased dividend, and that he was taking a much larger sum than the Excess Profits Tax. I think he established that fact. I take the case of a firm which made £1,500 before it was controlled, and after it was controlled an increased profit of £350. I venture to say there will be very many such firms, because it is only the very big firms that will make colossal profits. Small firms which have been turned on to this kind of work may make increased profits, but nothing like the same ratio as the large firm, therefore I submit that my illustration is moderate, and that it will be actually experienced in concrete cases. In that instance of £1,500 profit before control and £1,850 profit after control, what is the effect of being a controlled establishment upon that firm? The little firm that has made moderate profits, and only done it by meeting a new and difficult situation—which is always hard for a small firm to do, and not very hard for a large firm to do—will be enabled to keep £300 of that £350 as a reward for being useful to the State, whereas if the Excess Profits Tax came in upon that same firm, making £1,500, then afterwards making an additional profit of £350, the Excess Profits Tax would take £175 away from it, whereas, as a controlled establishment, only £50 would be taken. That illustrates the working of the system both ways and justifies the hon. Gentleman's remark which his illustration did not quite prove. It justifies the remark with which he introduced his two firms, his remark that the Excess Profits Tax would be harder on the small firm, but that he makes a much greater levy on the large firm—those firms which are making enormous profits. I therefore trust that the hon. Member for Hanley will not pursue that point, because his remarks might be misconstrued, and it is difficult enough to put this legislation into operation when it is seen clearly, but if anyone takes the trouble to put one side and not the other, you either in the one case get the employers to lose their temper, or in the other you mislead the workmen, and they take a course which they would not otherwise do.
A question was asked the Minister of Munitions with regard to the saving which, I think, they claim for the building of these State workshops. I think the claim is perfectly justified. It is a matter of regret that that should be so, but it arises from circumstances before this Ministry was formed. The great advance in prices and wages, and the cornering of markets, and whatever acts of that kind took place, had done so largely when the Ministry came upon the scene. I want the House to draw a moral. Had the Government dealt with this question then there would have been no need for these Bills now. What should have been done when the War started was in the first week to have had a stocktaking. The Government should have found out how many machine tools there were in the country, how much metal was available, what workers were available, what was suitable, and so on. They should have made a census. The first thing business people would have done would not have been to invent emergency legislation such as the Government did—a great deal of it intended to cope with things that have never happened. The Government have taken away some of our liberties and prerogatives which they never need have taken. Instead of panic legislation, they ought to have taken a careful stock and census of the available material in the country and of the available men. Had they done that, I think a good deal of this subsequent legislation would never have been required. But we drifted on for a long time, and got into an impasse, and then this Ministry was set up.
I see in the Bill a provision for inspectors. I suppose they are to go about getting information. Well, I think that it is a matter for regret that by legislation of this kind we are going to add so many to the Government officials and so much to the Government expense. I think this does as little of it as any Bill I have analysed. I will be candid about it; still it does pass the appointment of inspectors and officials. The inspectors, as far as I can see, have the right of entry, and they are to go to pick up information. I venture to say that if they had wanted powers of that kind in the first week of the War, and had asked that people should state what their banking account was, or what they could do in the way of helping the State, or in the production of munitions—if every man in the country had been invited then to say what he could do, and to suggest how he could best be used, or how the money or stock or business premises which he possessed could be best used for the manufacture of munitions, there would not have been much need for this Clause appointing inspectors. I am not blaming the Ministry of Munitions, because it was not established then; but, had these pains been taken then, there need not have been very much of the inspection foreshadowed in the document now before us.
One question I want to ask is, Why the Ministry of Munitions has not taken power to deal with the raw materials? They take some very wise powers. They say "metals, machines, or tools." In Clause 6, line 14, it says, "Any metals, machines, or tools required for such manufacture." Does the word "metals" there mean metals in the ground or does it only mean those metals which have been brought to the surface? It is a very important matter, because when you come to control these establishments you have to draw an arbitrary limit, and I feel sure that the arbitrary limits drawn in this Bill will not be defended logically by the Government, any more than one could argue that when a man is just twenty-one he should succeed to an estate, but when he is a day younger he should not have any power at all. There must be some line drawn, and it is unreasonable to ask for too much, but this point is important in this case. You control under the other Act—and I see you are going a step further in this—you control the munition works. Take those in the North-West of England. You there take hold of the armament firms and the munition shops and control them. You have gone further I think. Even under the other Bill you had power to take over blast furnaces, and a short time ago we received information that the blast furnaces of the West Coast, the hematite people, had been made controlled establishments. Very well, are you going under this Bill to take over the iron ore mines? I will not mention names or go into particulars, but it is well-known that almost the dominant fact in the hematite-iron industry is the opportunity to get the ore, and I do not think the Ministry of Munitions will reach the end of these quibbles until they go a step further. What I want to ask is, Do they mean by the term "metals," metals underneath the surface, metals which have been proved by experiment, but not obtained? Or do they mean to take over these mining royalty leases? I take it from this Clause they would have power, if they wished, to take over the mining royalty leases, and I should like to know from them whether they intend to do so. I would rather like to suggest to them that they should exercise these powers, and I think if they did it would give increased confidence in the trade.
In the Lincolnshire field the ore is not of as great value as the ore mined in Cumberland. There you get a layer, and after removing a certain cover it becomes, more or less, an open field. I suggest that if the Government carry out this policy, beginning on the West Coast and bringing it into Yorkshire, near my own Constituency—if they come there and ask that these blast furnaces shall be controlled shops, as well as on the West Coast—if they do that, they could not but go further and pass on to our people in Lincolnshire. For I venture to submit they cannot stop at that point. I think they could stop if they had taken over the royalties. They control the manufacturer making shells, they control the man working the lathes upon which the shells are to be turned, they control now the blast furnaces which provide the iron and steel for the munition maker and the tool maker, and I suggest they ought to go a step further and control the area itself of the royalty. I venture to put before my hon. Friend the hardship of it. The mineral royalty receiver only pays in Excess Profits Tax the half of the increased rate on the increased output; if he has an increased output of the same rate, he does not come under the Excess Profits Tax. At first I thought that was unjust, but on reconsideration I feel sure the Government took up a right position, though I felt rather anxious that the tax should have gone further. But on the increased output, where the rate for ore varies with the price of, say, Middlesbrough iron, they will then pay half of the excess rates price. But surely the firms that the royalty owner supplies, where they use capital and industry, and which have been brought under these Acts, should not be differentiated against. And I venture to ask my hon. Friend whether he can defend this position? A man puts capital and brains, and collects his labour into a shell factory. The same is done by the munition tool makers. The same is done again in the case of the blast furnaces. But when you come to the royalty owner, who has not put money in, in the sense of developing it, but leases it, and has not to make bargains with workmen, and take the risks of strikes and wages and contracts, and so on, who has a more or less settled income—when you come to him I do think it is time the Government considered the exercise of this power and put the whole of this organisation upon the same basis, and adopted the same attitude towards it, as a State. I venture to hope, therefore, that in using the word "metal" they not only include what is above the surface, but also that which is beneath the surface. There is no practical difficulty, no business obstacle, though the Minister may have been threatened with them. I venture to assure him, and I am connected with the trade, there is no real business obstacle to the Minister of Munitions making this job complete. The Ministry have gone three parts of the way; I feel sure now they will have had sufficient experience to go the other part of the way.
I was very pleased that attention was drawn by the hon. and learned Member for Oldham to the case of the consultations, which are to take place with the assessor. Reports have reached us, and I dare say those reports have reached the Minister of Munitions, that the chairman has taken it upon himself, although people who knew the business—the workmen on one side, or the trusted spokesmen of the workmen, and on the other the trusted spokesmen of the employers—have been sitting there he has not taken the trouble to consult them, but has given a decision without doing so. Therefore we find, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as you would naturally suppose, a Clause being put in here which chairman not consulting his assessors but which has to be put in because of the Chairman not consulting his assessors. I am not going to make the point which the hon. and learned Member did. He could make it without prejudice, because, being a member of the Bar, he could not be suspected in any way of belittling his profession. But I have sat as an assessor with a chairman who is a lawyer, but I never sat in a case where the chairman declined to consult the assessor. I am rather astonished that in a complicated trade matter anyone should have given a decision without consulting the assessor. I remember a case where the liberty of a youth was involved. The chairman of Quarter Sessions, who presided, thanked us afterwards for the information we gave him. Before giving his decision he said, "Is there any point of trade custom that has not occurred to me which I ought to know before I adjudicate?" We told him of certain trade customs, and he admitted that they led him to give a reprimand instead of a sentence. The result is that that boy, instead of being a gaol-bird to-day, is an honest citizen, and when last I heard of him he was in the trenches. However clever a chairman might be, it surely would be necessary for him to consult the assessors, not as to what is fair or reasonable, but as to any technical points or trade knowledge which he does not possess, but which could be given to him, and would enable him to do justice. I therefore rejoice that this Clause has been put in. I think that that alone would justify the few brief moments we are spending upon an examination of the Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "Very brief!"]
What is the position under Lord Derby's scheme of the workmen who are controlled by this Act? The hon. Member for Oldham raised the question of badges. That is an important question. Thousands of men from controlled shops, although they have had notices of the previous Act in the workshops, and have had badges, have enlisted or got attested under Lord Derby's scheme. That shows that many of these workmen do not yet realise that they are working for a controlled firm. I do not know what steps will be taken to make this measure familiar to all those men. There are men who have come back from the Army, where they looked forward to be taken across the Channel. When the Ministry of Munitions was formed, and the consequent public notice was given to the matter, they concluded that they would really do better work for the country if they worked in the controlled shops than they would by doing what would have been more pleasant to them—that is, to have put their training into practice and had a smack at the enemy. Some of these men went and drew their 2s. 9d. each under Lord Derby's scheme. I do not know whether it would be beyond the scope of the Bill to introduce an Amendment on that subject. I think some of the Clauses have a bearing upon it. Men have been known to fling their badges into the canal or river, and enlist, although the recruiting officer has been told not to take them. I suggest that the Government have a good opportunity to deal with this question under these enlarged powers, and at the end of the year. I say at the end of the year, because the badge is dated 1915. Therefore they will have to issue a fresh set in the coming year. Thus they will have an opportunity after the necessarily experimental stage of putting the matter on a sound basis.
I will relate an experience that I had in one of the establishments where I gave an address recommending this legislation. At the request of the Ministry of Munitions Meetings Department, I went with the hon. Member for Chesterfield to address the men at a works. I knew that there had been difficulty about munitions at those works, and that there was some dissatisfaction. It did not manifest itself during the meeting, but it did afterwards. I met a deputation of the workmen. They were not union men, but unskilled men. One man said, "I never was clever at school. I did not get on very well with my education. I have never been anything but a labourer, but I have always tried to pay my way. I am working in a Government shop at a time of war alongside another workman who is getting double my wages. He has a badge, and when he goes through the streets everybody knows that he is engaged on Government work. But although I work with him I have nothing to show, and people point at me as I go along the street." It is all very well to give pamphlets and to speak from the platform to these people. The hon. Member for Chesterfield made one of the finest speeches I have heard a Member of Parliament deliver.
I am under the impression—I may be wrong—that this question of badges is a matter of administration. If that is so, a passing reference to it, such as was made by the hon. Member for Oldham, and the general references already made by the hon. Member for Pontefract, are in order. But if it is purely a question of administration, a detailed examination of it is rather outside the scope of the Bill.
That is not the case at all, or I would not have mentioned it. I have studied the rules of order to a certain extent. I have suffered under your rebukes, Sir, and have become a little more expert since you took me in hand. I have been to the Ministry of Munitions on this very point of the badges. They say, "We must have additional powers." I have read the Bill, and I welcome it because I think it will enable the Ministry of Munitions to solve this problem. The original Act did not merely empower some admin- istrators to do it, it legislated upon it; and this is an amending Bill. I am raising the point now, so that I can get the assurance I ask. If the view taken in the Ministry of Munitions is correct that they have no power to treat these unskilled labourers like artisans they should amend the Clause in order to give them that increased power. You, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, were not in the House when I rose and said that my chief object in making this address was to make suggestions to the Government to make the Bill more efficient. I do not want this Bill to be whittled. I want the powers to be increased. I make the suggestions I do because of the considerable amount of experience I have had. Reference has been made by some speakers to Clause 7. I am very glad to see that Clause. I do not agree with the hon. Members who were allowed by Mr. Speaker to query that. There will perhaps be more Amendments put down per line on Clause 7 than there will be on any other part of the Bill. I will read the Clause to the House. It says:—
"For removing doubts it is hereby declared that the expressions 'workmen' and 'workman' whenever they occur in the principal Act and this Act include not only persons whose usual occupation consists in manual labour, but also foremen, clerks, typists, draughtsmen, and other persons whose visual occupations consist usually or mainly in work other than manual labour."
I submit that the plea I was making for unskilled labour and manual labour is increased ten-fold with regard to these people. Last week I gave an address at the works of several firms where the clerical staff have become dissatisfied because they were not mentioned as workmen under the previous Act. When I spoke I had not a copy of this Bill with me. If I had had I should not have varied the advice I gave, but it would have come with increased authority. I can assure these people that although they may be typists, draughtsmen and clerks for the purposes of the one Act, yet under Clause 7 they may be regarded as workmen for the purposes of the War. This view of the case, however, did not prevent me recommending them to enlist. In the firms I am connected with I insisted upon men, although clerks, helping in the production of munitions, and although it might mean an increase of the cost and great inconvenience, and although they might be considered as workmen for the production of munitions, attesting themselves under Lord Derby's scheme. This I considered their first duty. The contention that has been put forward is that it is necessary for this Clause to appear. I will not go at length into that except that I thank the Government for putting beyond all doubt this difficult point. There used to be an old standard of demarkation which was not this one—that is that the man who wore a black coat and a collar and followed his calling as a clerk was considered a kind of master's man. My hon. Friend beneath me (Mr. Tyson Wilson) will know exactly to what I refer; he represents my native place. But here is, I think, the first admission in an Act of Parliament that a clerk, and so on, although he may be working with his pen, is entitled to be called a workman just the same as those who may be in the other parts of the works. My hon. Friend shares with me in the thought that was passing through my mind. Would a clerk appreciate this Clause? My opinion is that he would be against it. But there again I am guided by experience. The Insurance Act, as the hon. Member will remember, was very unpopular with this class of people because they had to pay weekly just like, as they said, ordinary people. They rebelled against it, and the Liberal party lost a seat over the matter. I want to point out to the Labour party, which is here in sturdy quantity, that there ought not to go from those Benches any complaint against compulsion. I understood the hon. Member for Attercliffe to be putting in a plea for voluntaryism in these matters rather than the use of legislation of this kind. I think he was answered beforehand. He was answered effectively by the Minister of Munitions. That answer suggested a point I have again and again made in this House. I have never been listened to because I could not speak with authority. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon does not put such faith in the compulsion of Acts of Parliament. The Minister of Munitions said, "I have these powers which are useful for a very small minority, but I rely in the main on moral suasion and upon a fair appeal." It was very curious that that answer had to be given to a Socialist, to one who wants the State to order these things. It has puzzled me beyond measure why the State Socialists—at any rate, those in this House—should be the first to cry out against the operations of the State, and should become the champions of individual liberty. Oh! how I long for those Friday afternoons. I got no support then for any plea for individual liberty. It is raised by criticism upon the Bill before the House. I should have thought that legislation of this kind would have been welcomed by the Socialistic section of the House first and foremost. In the past, when one has pointed out the desirability of certain State compulsion and legislation of that sort, the State Socialists have said, "Oh, yes, it" is not introduced by a sympathetic Government, but by capitalists, and it will not work." They have an excellent chance now. In all this I had no friend. They have a great and powerful friend at court. They have-chances they never dreamed of a few years ago, not merely to welcome this legislation, as I think they ought to in this House, but to mould and shape it with the sympathetic Government. I am perfectly certain that no one will say at the present time that the Government are inclined to take the capitalist side or anything of that kind. The general debate has been that they have been too regardless of the rights of capital. Therefore I appeal to the Labour party, both provincial and metropolitan, and especially that portion of it—
There are two or three of us here; more than there are of your party.
I am not complaining of those Members who are here I am only appealing to that influential portion that is here, and I ask whether it is encouraging for the Government consisting, with the exception of one Member, of Liberals and Conservatives, when they have come down to the bed-rock and introduce schemes of State supervision and control, that they should meet with opposition from the Socialist Members of this House? If my hon. Friends on those benches reflect, I think they will see that this is a golden opportunity. It has come by accident and not by design; but still, perhaps, it is a more fair and natural opportunity than they will ever get for many years to come. If this legislation can be justified in time of war, I say quite frankly we have no case for entirely removing it in time of peace. It may have taught us something. Some of it, probably, will remain for ever. I do not disguise from myself the fact that when you take the extraordinarily far-reaching step that this Bill takes—and I doubt if the House realises it—surely we cannot be blind to the fact that these things will teach us that there can be no immediate repeal. You cannot get back immediately. There must at least be a period of transition even in a time of peace. It may teach the Liberal and the Conservative party in the House something. It may teach the employer. It may teach the workmen. It may teach my Friends here. This is an excellent chance, when the interests of the State demand it, for this experimental legislation. But it strikes me as strange that criticism should come from a well-known Socialist, and that he should take up the extreme position of individual liberty which the great champions in the past of that principle would never have dreamt of taking while the country was at war.
I want to put a question in regard to the women assessors. I listened to the Debate, and I was astounded that speaker after speaker sat down, and not one raised this point. In recent legislation, such as the Insurance Act, the point has been observed that when the interest is largely that of women, those who have to give the decision should include women upon the governing body, and in this case, where the points in dispute concern women, I say it is a most natural thing that there should be a woman assessor. I raise the point in order to extract, if I can, from the Government the kind of woman assessor they have in mind, and I do not make this point without considerable justification. In framing this Bill the Department has had the advantage of the knowledge and experience of the Board of Trade. We have seen extreme faddists or society women appointed on committees, while many women in this country of practical experience have been almost entirely overlooked, and I would suggest to the Minister of Munitions that, as he sets such an excellent example of putting this proposal into this amending Bill, he should also show some enlightenment in carrying the Clause into effect. I have no particular woman in my mind, and I do not suggest one.
What about Mrs. Booth?
She certainly could do work of this kind better than any other woman in the country, but she is not available.
I guess she is wanted at home, perhaps.
I am glad to find the hon. Member has the same appreciation of the qualities of Mrs. Handel Booth as I have. However clearly things may be drawn in a Bill, and however honourable the intentions are, it is necessary for a firm grip to be kept over the local representatives. An example has been set to other departments in that, and still it is necessary that they should keep up close connection and association with their representatives throughout the country, when they get a considerable distance away from the head office, to see that the woman is the right type of woman. We do not want cranks appointed, or women because of their social position. I am sure I need not labour that. I have not made that suggestion without scrutinising in the most careful manner all the committees appointed up to the present containing women members, and I have been disappointed with nearly every one of them. There are only one or two exceptions.
The hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. C. Duncan) took a very keen interest in this Bill, and he made a speech in the course of which he gave us one or two instances where employers have been unreasonable in enforcing the conditions of the principal Act. I venture to suggest that one could produce cases the other way. It might be inferred that when cases are given of workmen unfairly treated that is a fair statement of the general case. I am sure the hon. Member did not mean that, but the instances he gave were one-sided. Now most of the quarrels under the Act arise from the fact that neither side of the dispute knew the extraordinary powers of the Minister of Munitions. To a certain extent the conduct of the Minister of Munitions helped that at the beginning. The principal Act was expected to do a great deal more than it could possibly do.
I would point out to the hon. Member that this is an Amending Bill of the principal Act, and I would invite him to address his remarks more particularly to the Bill. Might I also remind him that the Minister of Munitions is to make a statement on Monday, and the remarks the hon. Member is just addressing to the House would be more suitable on that occasion than the present?
I was unaware about anything on Monday.
We have not been informed.
I have not the slightest idea; otherwise I might have recast my speech.
The statement was made in the House this afternoon.
Where?
From the Government Bench.
No intimation ever reached me or anyone I have spoken to.
Am I right, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in saying that the Minister of Munitions made a statement?
On a point of Order. Is it in order for an hon. Member to rise to a point of Order to say what the Minister of Munitions actually said?
That is an explanation and not a point of Order.
Then can I give the information?
The hon. Member can speak just as well in a set speech.
I am not obstructing the same as you are now.
You, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, have kindly informed me what I have not been able to find out before. I have been pressing the Government Whips to tell me the business even for to-day, and it is like drawing teeth. I submit with all deference that a point was made by the hon. Member for Barrow, and he was allowed to give instances where he claimed workmen have been partially treated under the Act, and can you, Sir, in common fairness, allow those statements to be made without it being pointed out that there is another side, in view of the wrong impression that may get abroad? However, as you think I shall have a good chance on Monday, I will reserve other points in the Debate until then.
I want to refer to the question of whether this Amending Bill will increase the output. I venture to submit that a good share of the speeches made to-day missed the main point. I listened again and again for someone to go right into the vitals of this Bill. What is the object of it? Not to smooth away a point here and give a good deal more power there. I should have thought the object was to increase the output. Is that the objects That is what I want to know. I want to know whether the Government will encourage output in that way as against buying from abroad. The point has been made repeatedly that in Germany and in France they have not got a measure of this kind. The Minister of Munitions made that point himself, and it is a fact that they have no controlled establishments in France. I know that in a sense they are all controlled, but they do not need this kind of legislation, and it is the same in Germany. I ask the Government if this Amending Bill on top of the other does not satisfy them in the matter of output, will they come down to the House for a more stringent Bill? I think the House is prepared to sweep aside consideration of nearly all the points we are introducing this afternoon, and which have delayed the progress of this Bill by bringing in points of sentiment, whereas I want to direct attention to the vital question of increased output. We want an increase of output from British factories and British arms, and by that test the Bill will be judged. We have to wait until Monday for any information about the magnitude or the growth of these great establishments, and I shall wait very anxiously for that statement. I urge that this Bill gives them all the powers that they want, and I hope they will accept such Amendments in Committee as will increase the efficiency of the measure and add more glory to the magnificent results they have already achieved.
After the very ample and comprehensive speech we have just listened to, I shall not trouble the House with any large questions of policy in connection with this Bill. I have drafted a number of Amendments which I hope to have an opportunity of placing before the Committee. I shall only attempt this evening to draw attention to two very important points in the Bill which I hope will have the immediate consideration of the Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions, and subsequently the attention of the House when it comes to deal with this Bill in Committee. There are two points, both of which I think are worthy of attention because they refer to the liberty of the subject and the rights that we as British citizens have in our traditional legal system. I wish to call attention to Clause 11, Sub-section (2), paragraph ( c ), at the bottom of page 7. This raises the method by which it is proposed to secure the termination of legal points which arise from time to time in munitions tribunals. The Bill leaves the Minister of Munitions uncontrolled power to constitute an appellate tribunal himself just as he likes. There is no provision in this Sub-section that amongst its members either one or all of them shall be lawyers of some standing. I have looked into various other acts, and I find no Act which contains a provision like this. I know it is only a temporary measure, but I do not think that it ought to go directly—
The hon. Member is now raising a point which would be much more properly raised in Committee. He has already stated that he proposes to move some Amendments to this Bill, and the proper place to deal with any details is in Committee and not in this House.
Might I appeal to you, Mr. Maclean, on that point? The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, with Mr. Speaker in the Chair, specifically singled out that Clause, and asked for a definite answer, and that was allowed by Mr. Speaker.
May I ask whether it is not in order to discuss on the Second Reading any question which may be raised in Committee on the Bill?
Is it not in order to object to a Bill because it does not contain anything else?
The Second Reading is to explain, criticise, and develop the principles upon which a Bill is founded. It is not in order to take Clause by Clause, and the proper place to do that is during the Committee stage. In my opinion the hon. Member was addressing himself to a Committee point when I called him to order.
If a question is raised on the Second Reading of a Bill which is relevant to the Bill and which can be discussed in Committee, do I understand you to rule that that question would be in order on the Committee stage but not on the Second Reading?
It is a question of degree. In my opinion the hon. Member for North Somerset was addressing himself to a particular Clause in a manner more appropriate to the Committee stage and not to the Second Reading.
Of course, I bow entirely to your decision. At the same time may I respectfully thank hon. Members who have intervened on points of Order, and I quite fully appreciate the kindly sentiment which prompted their intervention. May I also say to the Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions that I thought it would facilitate matters on the Committee stage if I briefly indicated in a word or two now points which I shall have to go into more detail upon later on. There is another point I wish to touch upon in connection with Clause 14. That Clause gives very remarkable protection to persons who claim that they may be acting under the Munitions Act, and apparently any constable can take almost any action, authorised or unauthorised, the only point being that he must do it in good faith. He may really interfere in a most vital way with the liberty of the subject. I shall not go into details now, but I want to give warning beforehand that when the matter comes into Committee I shall consider it my duty to bring forward Amendments on this point. I should like to have dealt with other points, and I believe the House is still ready to listen to discussion upon this Bill. There is the interesting point which has been raised by the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth). I think he raised two points of extraordinary interest.
That is a very good reason why they should not be raised again.
Do I understand that the Chair suggests to the House that when I make important points they should not be answered.
The only reason for my intervention was to avoid repetition
Of course, after your ruling, I must not pursue these points, but with the hon. Member I should very much have liked to have developed my argument on the line he took up at considerable length. I suppose that I am not in order in doing so, but perhaps I may be allowed at a later stage to intervene with some remarks on these points. I give this Bill my hearty support, and I hope I may be allowed to improve it when it comes to the Committee stage. I am sure that we congratulate the Ministry of Munitions on its great energy, and on the great achievements which it has carried through. We hope that so long as it endures it will go on with increasing output and decreasing friction, and will enable, as I believe it will enable, knowing as I do the conciliation and the patience with which suggestions are met, this nation in a very large measure to come out at the end of this War victorious.
I feel in rather a difficulty owing to a ruling given by Mr. Deputy-Speaker prior to your coming to the Chair—but I shall raise the matter to-morrow—that we are not entitled on the Second Reading to discuss matters which we can discuss in Committee on the same measure. I take it, notwithstanding that ruling, that I am entitled to direct my observations to those particular Clauses of the Bill to which I take exception. Otherwise, as far as I can understand it, the Second Reading Debates of this House would be wholly irrelevant to the issue, and it would be impossible to bring the points before the attention of the House. I do not think there is any party or anyone in the House who is not anxious to co-operate with the Minister of Munitions by giving him every facility to provide a supply of munitions in every sense necessary and essential to carrying the War to a successful conclusion. Having said that, I come to Clause 1, or rather a later Clause of the Bill, and I desire to know why the Government have not already under the provisions of the Act made therein ore mines controlled establishments'! I have raised this question twice before in the House, but I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary can be aware that at the present time a royalty of no less than 8s. to 9s. per ton is paid on every ton of stone raised out of the ground for the purpose of making steel used in munition works. Those works which are raising this stone ought to come within the meaning of a "controlled estblishment." The price of the stone determines the price of the steel, and one royalty owner alone is receiving no less than £150,000 a year in respect of the royalty on the stone raised for the purpose of munitions work.
That is not a matter which, so far as I can see, comes within the scope of this Bill.
On that point of Order. In the course of my speech I asked for an explanation of Clause 6, which gives power to deal with "metals." The Government have not yet answered or explained whether this includes this iron metal in these ore mines. I submit, if it does not, that we are entitled in Committee to move words to say that it should include them. Surely, therefore, my hon. Friend is entitled to make the point now?
That, of course, would be in order.
9.0 P.M.
I know I mentioned Clause 1, and Clause 1 would not entitle me to raise this point, but my hon. Friend pointed out to me that in Clause 6 the word "metals" is used, and that was the reason why I mentioned the question of these iron-ore mines. I hope the Minister of Munitions will quite seriously take into consideration the question of dealing with these firms who are making these enormous profits out of the necessities of the nation at the present time. I think my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary understands the point, and if he will convey our wishes to the Minister of Munitions we shall be greatly obliged to him.
With regard to Clause 5, I want to know how these piece-work rates have been arrived at. No one desires that any woman or any person should work in munition works without receiving decent remuneration for their labour, but these piece-work rates have in many cases been built up in munition works on a very extraordinary basis. I happen, in the course of my business, to meet on many occasions deputations of workmen and trade-union leaders for the purpose of making prices, and I do not think I have ever yet met a deputation who have not maintained that it was impossible for them to get a living wage out of the prices offered. Human nature being what it is, the employer endeavours to get a less price, and the endeavour is always made on the part of the workmen, quite properly, to get the best they can for their labour. These piece-work rates have been built up, particularly in Glasgow, on a basis which, I am told by responsible firms, gives prices wholly out of proportion to the value of the work done. I am associated with a controlled firm, and in the prices that have been arranged for shell work we had to work in the darkness, not having any comparative basis to go upon. If we can believe half the statements put forward by the employers of labour, piece-work rates are being paid out of all proportion to the value of the work done.
We do not dissent from the view that women should receive the same rate of wage as a man does for the same amount of work done. There is no dispute about that If a woman does a man's work, and as much as a man does, she ought to be paid exactly the same wage as the man, especially when, in a time of national stress, she is leaving her own occupation to do it. I want to know, Is it or is it not the fact that women are now able to make £5 or £6 a week, or four or five times as much as they were before the War? I should be glad if my hon. Friend would give me the average earnings of women working on machines in the new establishments. Now I come to another point. I do not think there is a single lathe in any of the engineering shops, working on shell work, that is running true. Practically all the lathes, owing to the hard steel used and the extremely hard work they are called upon to do, are out of gear, and the whole machinery wants taking to pieces and practically reconstructing. The cost of putting these machines in order would be such a very heavy sum that I think the Minister of Munitions might reasonably have said that this charge alone would have entirely met the point raised by the hon. Member for Gorton.
On Clause 4 I want to know what is the position of workmen—single men—who, living in a town, and employed in a controlled establishment, move to another town and do the same class of work. They are paid, as far as I understand, a standard rate of wages of £2 per week, but, by moving from one side of the street to another, or into the adjoining county, they may increase their wages by no less than 17s. 6d. or £1 a week, and that is constantly being done at the present time. Men are moving from where they were originally employed to other works merely in order to get these higher wages, and the question arises whether the employer has unreasonably consented to the man leaving his employment. In works with which I am associated a number of men have actually left their employment and moved a few miles into an adjoining county simply in order to get 17s. 6d. additional wages, and they are doing exactly the same work as they were doing in the works with which I am associated. I come next to the question of inspection, and I call the attention of the Minister of Munitions to the fact that Major-General von Donop, of the Ordnance Department, Woolwich, appointed as inspectors of steel works with which I am associated, a fishmonger, a butcher, a tailor, a publican, and a carpet manufacturer. Their duty was to inspect the steel made at the works, and they had never had any experience of the industry.
I must draw the hon. Baronet's attention to the fact that he is now dealing with a purely administrative question, and not with a matter which relates to the Second Reading.
I do not think your attention can have been called to Clause 10 of the Bill, which deals with the powers of inspectors. I do not know whether I would be in order in referring to what these inspectors have done, and the powers which have been exercised in the past. But the Clause reads as follows:
"An inspector appointed by the Minister of Munitions for the purposes of the principal Act shall have power to enter at all reasonable times the premises of any establishment (other than a private dwelling-house not being a workshop) for the purpose of ascertaining whether it is desirable to put in force as respects any establishment or any person employed therein any of the powers of the Minister."
I contend that to send inspectors drawn from these classes is perfectly ludicrous. Am I not in order in bringing out what has been actually happening under the past administration of the Ordnance Department? I desire to call the attention of the House to the fact that these men were appointed, not by the Minister of Munitions, but by the Ordnance Department, and they have been taken over by the Minister of Munitions. What I wish to emphasise is the fact that, prior to their appointment, they had never had any experience whatsoever of this class of work, yet they are carrying out inspection duties in connection with a highly-skilled trade, of the work of which they are entirely ignorant. To have such inspectors is a pure waste of public money, and the sooner the Minister of Munitions turns his attention to getting rid of these men who were imported by that inefficient Department—now, I hope, defunct—the Ordnance Department, the better.
claimed to move "That the question be now put."
The hon. Member is always a very energetic supporter of the Government, right or wrong, but in this case he could not get the consent of the Deputy-Speaker—
We want to get to business, in war time at any rate. It is a disgrace.
The hon. Member says it is a disgrace. He has only been a Member of this House a short time, and I do not think he is entitled thus to lecture those who have been here so many more years—perhaps before he was born.
At any rate, you are old enough to know better.
I propose now to say a few words with reference to Clause 12 of the Bill. The Bill says:—
"The Minister of Munitions may make arrangements with any other Government Department for the exercise and performance by that Department of any of his powers and duties."
I desire to know whether any such arrangement has been entered into, and whether the Minister of Munitions contemplates using the powers under this Clause. If he does, will he kindly tell us?
I desire to call attention to Clause 11 of the Bill, which contains an extraordinary provision and raises an entirely new point. I do so in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will consider the question between now and the Committee stage. Amendments will be put down, and I hope he will depart from what seems to be an absolutely wildcat scheme of legislation in that particular respect. I am voicing not only my own views, but those of many others in respect of that particular matter.
I hope the Government will consider the point raised by my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Rawlinson) before the Committee stage. It is a rather serious question. The point is this: Clause 11, Sub-section (2) ( c ), provides that if questions of law arise there may be appeals on questions of law.
On a point of Order. This is a matter upon which I was endeavouring to address the House when I was pulled up on the point of Order that it was a Committee point, and that the details of this Clause were not applicable to the Second Reading. Is the hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Butcher) entitled to address the House on a point which is exactly the same as that upon which I was not allowed to address the House?
I am not yet seized of the point proposed to be raised by the hon. and learned Member for York.
This is a point to which I wish to call the attention of the Government, in order that they may consider it before the Committee stage, because, as I conceive, it is a very serious defect in the Bill. The Bill provides for an appeal on a question of law, and contemplates that questions of law may arise. If you are going to have an appeal on a question of law, one would have thought that you should have a Law Court to decide it. Law Courts have existed in this country for many centuries for the express purpose of dealing with questions of law.
On a point of Order. As that is exactly the point that I was trying to urge, is the hon. and learned Member for York entitled to make a speech which was almost anticipated by the remarks that I was prevented from uttering?
No doubt the hon. Member was justly dealt with.
On a point of Order. Will you take an opportunity at some time or another of consulting your predecessor in the Chair, in order that in future, at an rate, there might be no difference of ruling?
The hon. Member is not entitled to raise the question of a decision given by the Chair in the previous course of the Debate.
The reason I draw attention to this point is because it raises a serious constitutional question which ought to be considered before the Committee stage. Where you have an appeal on a question of law it has been hitherto the invariable custom in this country to give the person who is aggrieved the ordinary right of the subject, namely, an appeal to the constituted Courts of Law. This Clause now proposes to grant appeals on questions of law from munition tribunals to a Court specially constituted for the purpose, consisting of one or more persons appointed by the Minister of Munitions. No one yields to me in my admiration of the energy which the Minister of Munitions has thrown into his work, for which he deserves the gratitude of the nation, but I do not think it is his business to appoint judges. There are other functionaries in this country who are entrusted by the Constitution with the duty of appointing judges on questions of law, and that the Minister of Munitions should appoint a judge or two judges for the purpose of deciding questions of law is an innovation which we should not tolerate. I would suggest respectfully to the Government that before the Committee stage they should reconsider this matter and give the appeal on questions of law to the ordinary tribunal, namely, the High Court of Justice.
Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Friday next.—[ Mr. G. H. Roberts. ]
Trading With the Enemy (Extension) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Prohibit Trading with Persons of Enemy Nationality, etc.)
(1)His Majesty may by Proclamation prohibit all persons resident, carrying on business, or being in the United Kingdom from trading with any persons or bodies of persons not resident or carrying on business in enemy territory or in territory in the occupation of the enemy wherever by reason of the enemy nationality or enemy association of such persons or bodies of persons, it appears to His Majesty expedient so to do, and if any person acts in contravention of any such Proclamation he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour triable and punishable in like manner as the offence of trading with the enemy.
(2) Any list of persons and bodies of persons with whom such trading is prohibited by a Proclamation under this Act may be varied or added to by an Order made by the Lords of the Council on the recommendation of a Secretary of State.
(3) The provisions of the Trading with the Enemy Acts, 1914 and 1915, and of the Customs (War Powers) (No. 2) Act, 1915, and all other enactments relating to trading with the enemy, shall, subject to such exceptions and adaptations as may be prescribed by Order in Council, apply in respect of such persons and bodies of persons as aforesaid as if for references therein to trading with the enemy there were substituted references to trading with such persons and bodies of persons as aforesaid, and for references to enemies there were substituted references to such persons and bodies of persons as aforesaid, and for references to offences under the Trading with the Enemy Acts, 1914 and 1915, or any of those Acts, there were substituted references to offences under this Act.
(4) For the purposes of this Act a person shall be deemed to have traded with a person or body of persons to whom a Proclamation issued under this Act applies, if he enters into any transaction or does any act with, to, on behalf of, or for the benefit of, such a person or body of persons which if entered into or done with, to, on behalf of, or for the benefit of, an enemy would be trading with the enemy.
There are several Amendments on the Paper in the name of the hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Butcher) to this Clause. They appear to me, taken together—I have to read them together—to constitute a new Clause.
With great respect, I submit that is not so. I propose only a different mode of achieving the object of the Bill. The object of the Bill, as stated the other day, is to prohibit trading with the enemy either in neutral countries or at home, and the mode in which the Bill proceeds is that a Proclamation might be issued prohibiting it. The mode proposed in my Amendment is to prohibit it by the Bill itself, in other words, that Parliament should prohibit the trading instead of, as proposed by the Bill, that a Proclamation should prohibit it. I submit, with great deference, that I am bound to propose it here, because if the first Clause were passed in its present form I should be out of order in proposing a new Clause, the effect of which would be by my Amendments to prohibit trading, inasmuch as the Clause already passed would provide that the trading was to be prohibited by Proclamation.
Possibly I have misunderstood the many Amendments. May I ask the hon. and learned Member which of his Amendments runs along with the first one?
Perhaps it would be convenient to you, Sir, and the Committee, that I should say how the first Clause would read if this Amendment and the consequential Amendments I propose were adopted. It would read:
"All persons resident, carrying on business, or being in the United Kingdom are hereby prohibited from trading with any persons or bodies of persons of enemy nationality or enemy association even though such persons or bodies of persons be not resident or carrying on business in enemy territory or territory in the occupation of the enemy."
Then the Clause would go on:
"And if any person acts in contravention,"
and so on.
Then the hon. Member's words are clearly in order.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "His Majesty may by Proclamation prohibit."
What I have said, I think, makes it clear what the object of my Amendment and the consequential Amendments is. I desire not to leave this prohibition to the action of the Executive. The action of the Executive is sometimes uncertain and, without disrespect to the present Government, sometimes arbitrary. Executives are always subject to influences to which, perhaps, the House of Commons is not and certainly ought not to be subject. When I say influences, I am not using the word with any sinister meaning. My object is to ensure that this prohibition of trading with enemies, whether in neutral countries or in this country, shall be laid down and carried out by the Act of Parliament itself, and that it shall not be left to the action of the Executive to make it effective. There are two branches into which the Bill divides itself. The first is to prevent persons resident here from trading with enemies in neutral countries, and the second is to prevent persons in this country from trading with enemies resident themselves in this country—at least as important a branch as the first one, which has already caused many difficulties and, I think, many dangers both before and during this War, As to the first branch of it, namely, preventing persons from trading with enemies in neutral countries, I imagine from what my Noble Friend said the other night that that would more properly fall within the province of the Foreign Office, and that if the Bill is left in its present form he is administering that branch of it. I hope we may assume that he intends to administer it resolutely and vigorously. I shall hope to get an assurance on that point. But who is to administer the second part of it? I imagine it would be the Home Secretary. If so, we ought to have the advantage of his presence.
It seems to me that the hon. and learned Gentleman is now mixing up two things. The point he is on at the moment is one which will be very properly raised by a subsequent Amendment which he has on the Paper. Had he not better dispose of this question of Proclamation first of all and go on to the second point on the later Amendment?
My reason for going into the question of Proclamation was to be sure that we have a proper representative of the Government here to deal with the branch of the case on which I was going to enter, namely, the question of trading with enemies in this country. If I am assured that we have the proper representative of the Government here for that purpose, well and good. On the Second Reading the other night my Noble Friend expressly disclaimed any capacity on his part to deal with this part of the question.
I think I went further than that and said that as far as I was concerned the Bill was not designed for that purpose at all. It is entirely a Bill designed to deal with enemies in neutral countries, or persons who we think ought to be enemies in neutral countries. That is a very large subject.
The question was specifically asked and it was said that by the very drafting it did not apply to enemies trading in this country. I submit that it should come in here whether it is designed or not.
That I think is not disputed. What my Noble Friend has said entirely confirms the point I was making, that he is prepared to deal with that part of the Bill, and will deal with it, which affects trading with enemies in neutral countries, but is not prepared to deal with that part of it which affects trading with enemies at home. But that question is distinctly dealt with in the Bill. There is no question whatsoever. The Solicitor-General said so the other night.
I said the words in the Bill were wide enough to cover that, but I did not think this was the best way to deal with it.
We are tending towards a general discussion on the Bill, while the hon. and learned Gentleman is proposing a specific Amendment. I point out again that he has an Amendment on the Paper to insert a new Sub-section (2), which I shall call when we come to it, which raises this second question.
No, it only raises a part of it. It is a sort of definition Clause. I am submitting that I am strictly relevant. What I am saying now is that this question of trading with the enemy in this country is one of such importance that it ought to be dealt with by the Bill itself and not by Proclamation. If I am told it is a matter which could be dealt with by Proclamation, as proposed in the Bill, my answer is no. It is a question of vital importance to us which must be dealt with by the Bill, and that is how I justify my Amendment, by showing the importance of the particular proposal. It is a matter of such importance that it must not be left to the chance action of any member of the Executive, but should be left to the legislation itself. This question of trading with the enemy in this country is one on which the country has been for a considerable time, not only impatient, but I think indignant. We have seen scandals such as the trading by the Continental Tyre Company, a company consisting solely of aliens resident abroad, not one shareholder as far as I can remember living in this country, and yet under its masquerading dress of an English company it asserts in our Courts of Law, and in its trading capacity, all the rights of an English company consisting of purely English traders. Let me give another illustration. You can have in this country a firm owned entirely by a German living in Berlin. I know one or two cases myself. He may be carrying on a business in Berlin and may have a business in London, and he is allowed to carry it on free of all restrictions from the Trading with the Enemy Act or any other legislation because he says it is a branch of his business in Berlin.
I think it is time we got to work to deal with scandals of this sort. When we raised this sort of question on former occasions we were told that the law was against us, and that it would be necessary to introduce legislation to meet the evils of which we complained. We were told that the legislation which had been introduced was quite sufficient to meet the case. They said to us, "If there are German shareholders here we will hang up their dividends until the end of the War, and they can come and ask for them and probably get them. That is quite sufficient for the purpose." I submit that that is a wholly inadequate and perfectly ludicrous mode of dealing with a great question of this sort. The question is a far larger one than holding up dividends. It raises issues of a far greater and a far wider character. It raises the question of whether we are justified, when there are German companies and firms in this country, in carefully preserving and maintaining the business of those German firms and companies, for what? In order that they may be resumed by their German owners after the War. In this matter I think we are not only entitled, but we are bound to look a little ahead. We are bound to look to the future. We are not called upon to consider simply some temporary measure for the purpose of the War, but we are bound to see what our present course of action will be in its effect upon things after the War.
What I suggest is that we should by legislation prohibit persons resident in this country, over whom we have jurisdiction, from trading with these German firms and companies in the United Kingdom, subject, of course, to this exception that if in any special case it is necessary and desirable in the interests of this country that these companies or firms should be allowed to carry on a licence should be given. I have an Amendment down in regard to that subject. Speaking broadly, I say both for the present and for our commercial policy in the future, it is essential that this House should prohibit persons in this country from trading with German firms and companies in the United Kingdom. We have too long, both before the War and during the War, suffered from the poison of German influence, German intrigue, German finance, German espionage, and German evils deep rooted down into our system, which we are bound to see destroyed, as far as we can, when this War is over. The question arises, whether in this proposed legislation we can deal with this matter. I say we can. Let no one tell us in this House that we are dealing unfairly with these German firms or companies by adopting the methods I suggest of prohibiting trade with them. What do the Germans do with our companies? They do not bolster them up. They do not encourage their continuance. They do not put in caretakers to see that they are kept at their full efficiency for the purpose of being restored at the end of the War to the English owners. Not they! In this and some other matters the Germans have had something more of foresight and something more of efficiency than has characterised our action in dealing with such matters.
I asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, the other day, if he could inform me how the Germans deal with companies or firms in Germany which are wholly or mainly owned by British subjects. The reply he gave me was, I think, a most informing one as to German methods, and with the permission of the Committee—because hon. Members may not have read the answer he gave me—I would like to read that answer. I think it is important not only that hon. Members, but persons outside, should know how the Germans deal with British firms and companies situated in Germany. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said:— desirable in the interests of the Germans, it is carried on. If it is such a firm or company that it is not desirable in German interests to carry it on, but it is desirable in British interests to carry on, then they either bring it to an end, discontinue it, or dissolve it We have an opportunity under this Bill of acting in what I venture to think is an exceedingly sensible German fashion, involving no barbarity, no outrage upon humanity, but the maximum of common sense. I ask by this Amendment that we in this House should say at once and for all that this Parliament will not permit people under its jurisdiction in the United Kingdom to trade with German firms or companies situated in the United Kingdom.
Let me not be answered by the statement that my Amendment is not the best form in which this desirable result can be produced. If it is not in the best form, let me tell my Noble Friend (Lord Robert Cecil) that it is not altogether my fault. I do not think time was given for hon. Members to consider the Bill. It was only read a second time two nights ago, and there was little time given to formulate Amendments, and such Amendments as I have formulated have been done in a great hurry. Therefore, do not let the Noble Lord answer my Amendment by saying it is not well drafted or something of that sort. May I ask him to deal with the substance of the matter, and to give me, in regard to the part which he will play in the administration of this Bill as regards trading in neutral countries, his assurance that he will do his best to carry it out. So far as the Home Secretary is concerned, or whoever may be the right hon. or hon. Member who has to deal with the matter of trading with enemies in this country, let him give his assurance that he will resolutely and vigorously carry it out. Unless that assurance is given, I say it is the duty of this House to see that that trading is effectually and completely stopped.
I think that all of us who have taken part in this question of German trading in this country will welcome the speech of the hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Butcher). May I point out, in reference to the Bill which preceded this, that we adopted the ordinary Parliamentary method, I will not say of obstruction, but the only method which was open to us for preventing this Bill coming on to-night, because of the fact that its Second Reading was obtained only the night before last, and that we have really not had time to put Amendments on the Paper?
I am extremely sorry that any inconvenience has been occasioned hon. Members. I communicated with the hon. and learned Member for York, and I understood from him, it may be wrongly, that it would be convenient for him to take the Bill to-night. I also communicated with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel), and I received no intimation that it would be inconvenient to him.
I thought that it only referred to yesterday.
I said it was to be taken to-night or to-morrow.
Many of our Friends have gone.
If it is really desired to delay the Bill to-night I should not, on behalf of the Government, make any opposition to any proposal of that kind, but I do earnestly beg my hon. Friends, on both sides of the House, to carefully consider whether they cannot discuss this Bill tonight, for the reason that if it is delayed to a later period and we do not get on with it to-night, possibly it might be crowded out, and, considering its enormous importance, I am anxious, if we can, to get on with this stage, or at least some part of the stage.
The Government Whip—
Upon a point of order—
Oh, you go to the trenches!
On a point of Order, Sir. I submit that there is no question before the House, and that my hon. Friend on my right, at any rate, should move to report Progress.
That is within the discretion of the Chair. There is the question of the Amendment moved by the hon. Member. I think the hon. Member for Mansfield gave way to the hon. Member for Pontefract.
This business was not in the Government Whip, which 6aid there was no other business, nor the Second Whip. I spoke to several hon. Members telling them that this Bill was coming on to-night. They replied to me that I was wrong, that it was not coming on, and that they were going home. I would suggest that we should make some progress. This is a most important Amendment, and much depends on the answer which is given to it. I would not like to give up now, and we do not want to destroy the Bill.
I think what my hon. Friend has just said represents what is really the feeling of the House. We have no desire to destroy this Bill; all we desire is to strengthen the Bill. The hon. Member for York told me that he had drafted his Amendment, but we who are not lawyers cannot draft Amendments with the same facility as can the hon. and learned Gentleman, with his wide experience. Taking the substance of the Amendment which he has moved, we may say that it comprises the whole question involved in this Bill. I think we might take the general discussion on this main Amendment moved by the hon. Member for York, because it is of great importance and interest to the country, and if this Amendment is carried out, then the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs will have met the wishes not only of the House but of the country as well. Members below the Gangway here have for months past called attention to the question of the Germans continuing to trade in this country. I feel more strongly on this question than on any other with which we have had to deal for months past. We are allowing the Germans to carry on their business in this country under the guise of its being in the hands of a British custodian, while they are keeping the goodwill of the business, Germans finding the capital, and Germans being allowed to import goods from foreign countries in order to maintain their goodwill in this country; while at the same time British firms competing with them, and whose partners are fighting for their country, are having their trade taken away by German firms, who maintain their goodwill during the period.
That position is perfectly outrageous. I cannot for the life of me understand why the Government have had this tenderness all through the War for the German alien enemy. Time after time we have seen German firms turning up under British names. The more British the name, the more likely is that business, nowadays, to be that of a German firm masquerading in British guise. We have addressed in- numerable questions to the Board of Trade in this House as to German firms carrying on business in this country, and we never yet have had any satisfaction from that Department, except to be told that at the end of the War the profits made by these German firms or companies would not go to Germany, but would be dealt with by the Government, when peace was made, in such a way as they might deem fit. The whole of that policy enables these German firms to keep their goodwill. It is only a few nights ago that we were dealing with the question of goodwill, and how valuable an asset it was to a firm to maintain its goodwill. I would ask the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs to remember—and I am sure there is no desire on the part of the Government to do other than approach this question from other than a right standpoint—that facilities should not be given to Germans which are not given to British companies in Germany. What are the facts with regard to British companies registered in Germany for the purpose of carrying on a trade or business in Germany? I have made what inquiries are possible at the present time, and my information coincides with that of the hon. and learned Member for York. It is that where an English firm in Germany is carrying on a business which is helpful to Germany it is allowed to continue. Otherwise it is closed down. That is not what happens in this country.
Take the case of Siemens, who have a very large colliery business and steel works. It is a firm employing fifteen hundred or two thousand men, and paying large sums of money in wages. The majority of its shares are held in Germany. My view has been for a long time past that the only way to deal with such firms is to give power of compulsory purchase of the German undertaking, where the whole of the shares, or the overwhelming majority of the shares, are in German hands; and that where there is only a few Germans holding a small amount of capital the Government could easily come down to the House and say that they would give companies the right of altering the Articles of Association to enable a British company to buy out the German shareholders at a reasonable price to be determined by a Court. In many Articles of Association there is a clause that if there are objectionable shareholders or persons giving trouble the directors may buy out those objectionable shareholders. Those are rather wide powers, and I do not see when they are given in Articles of Association under our limited liability law why they should not equally be given by the Government to companies in this country which have German shareholders whom they cannot get rid of and whom they are anxious to get rid of. We have the instance of sanatogen and other medicines. I think my hon. Friend the Member for York is dealing with that question in an Amendment later on.
made a remark which was inaudible in the Reporters' Gallery.
We have the instance of the Continental Tyre Company, which is a German company, consisting entirely of German shareholders, and which is entitled to carry on business in precisely the same way as before the War, only that the profits are kept to the end of the War. They can buy their tyres in America or elsewhere and maintain their goodwill, and they are in fact carrying on their trade in this country, and this Amendment would prevent them. We then have sanatogen, and other medicines the ingredients of which are well known. They have trade names, but the ordinary person who goes into a shop has no desire to buy a German commodity if he can buy an English commodity. In the town of Nottingham, I understand, a great amount of goods being sold as English or American goods are, in point of fact, of German origin exported from Germany to New York and re-exported from there to here. Coming to the system of Proclamation, what precisely does that mean? I think it really means the same as an Order in Council, perhaps the Solicitor-General will say.
It is not quite the same.
It is only a difference in form. I do not think my hon. Friend need trouble himself about that.
10.0 P.M.
I take it that a Proclamation by His Majesty is equivalent to an Order in Council. Mr. Thomas Gibson Bowles had a great deal, rightly or wrongly, to say of what he terms the illegal Acts that the Government have from time to time carried out by way of Proclamation. He contends, as the House is well aware, that the Government are not entitled, and have not been entitled, to issue those Proclamations giving powers to themselves to set aside the law dealing with the capture of enemy property at sea. Whether that contention is sound or not I am not in a position to say, not having enough knowledge of naval matters to enable me to do so. What I do ask the Government to do is to give us to-night a definite statement, "Are you going to stop Germans trading in this country or are you not?" We will then know where we stand. The whole principle of this Bill is really dealt with in this Amendment. If the Noble Lord can get up and tell us that he is going to accept in principle not the actual words themselves, but what this Amendment seeks to do, then I am sure that this Bill will have a speedy passage through the House, and it will be received with acclamation from all parts of the country. The whole difficulty, such as it is, has arisen because Germans have not hesitated to abuse the hospitality of our shores in the past. They have created a vast system of espionage in this country, and they have built on that foundation, and it is our duty to see that they do not repeat that performance in the future. We can only do so by saying now by this Bill that by reason of this wicked War, which has been no seeking of ours, we will after this War have no more trading with Germany. If we establish that principle, then we can deal with the matter in that light and in that light alone. If you proceed on the assumption that this is only a temporary measure, and that after the War you are going to give to Germany the same facilities and to allow Germans to again abuse our hospitality as they did before, and if you are not going to remember all the cruelties she has practised during the War, then I may tell you I, for one, am not going to shake hands with Germany after the War. I say that in our generation we cannot and ought not to allow any German to trade in this country or to enjoy the hospitality of our shores.
I should like to join in what has been said already by the hon. Member for York (Mr. Butcher) with regard to this Amendment which really affects the whole principle of the Bill. The Amendment turns the Bill round. Up to the moment the Bill was put on the Table, the Bill itself accepted the old common law doctrine of domicile for the purpose of nationality, but said that in certain very exceptional cases the Government, by Proclamation, could make a black list. I notice that the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs shakes his head, but I do not think that that is an unfair statement of the scope of the Bill as it stood. Some of us want the Bill to go a little further. We want to say where enemy association or character is proved then trading is by law illegal, and if you like in certain cases to allow trading you can do so, and that I understand is provided for in subsequent Amendments. But the object of the Amendment is to get rid of the Government principle of exceptional treatment and to say that in all cases of established enemy character or enemy association, whether the individual is residing in this country or in other countries does not matter, you shall accept that as the principle of nationality. I have not been able to gather from the shaking of the head of the right hon. Gentleman or by any other means what the attitude of the Government is towards this proposal.
I have not had the opportunity.
If we are met with a refusal—and from what has happened in the past I am rather afraid that that may be our fate—I think it behoves us to state very strongly that we feel it is the most astonishing thing that at this time of the day, faced as we are with this awful crisis, the Government should be taking up this attitude. Several cases have already been mentioned. Take the case of the Copper Trust, that octopus which seems to have the whole trade, not only of this country and of Australia, but of the world, in its grip, and whose authorised agents, up to quite a recent date, even though the facts were known by the Government, were still employed by the Government to do their purchasing. Facts of that kind when they are brought to light to the ordinary person, who, I admit, has not got the Government's knowledge, are so astounding, and even horrifying, that it seems that no measure could be too strong to deal with them. Yet when the Prime Minister only two days ago was asked whether he proposed to initiate legislation to deal with the Continental Tyre Company case, he said he did not propose to do anything of the kind. Why are the Government taking up this attitude? Why is it impossible for the Government to take action? I myself asked a question on the Continental Tyre Company case three or four months ago, and the Attorney-General said the case was very difficult. But all things worth doing in this life are very difficult. We all agree to that, but that is no reason why the Government, charged with the responsibility of controlling the destinies of this country in a crisis, should not at any rate attempt to deal with it, and I most earnestly plead, and I venture to give a humble note of warning to the Government in the matter that the feeling in the country is rising very much, if the letters I get on the subject are any indication, on this whole question of the attitude of the Government towards enemy trading. It is not so very long ago since we had an outburst of feeling because the safety valve was screwed down too tight in connection with the "Lusitania" case. I am seriously of opinion that unless the Government mend their ways in this matter we might run the risk of another outbreak of that kind, which nobody would more lament than those hon. Members who are asking for this Amendment, but at the same time we could say we had warned the Government of what was likely to happen unless they took this matter seriously in hand.
I wish to explain exactly my attitude in reference to this Amendment. My hon. and learned Friend opposite asks me not to discuss the drafting of the Amendment or anything of that kind, but to try and discuss the broad principles underlying it. I say that as far as I am concerned, and I believe that as far as the Government is concerned, as far as home firms are concerned, the firms discussed in the last three speeches, the rule seems to be perfectly clear. Only those firms should be allowed to carry on business which it is the interest of this country to be allowed to carry on business, and no one else. That is the rule.
It is not adopted.
That may or may not be, but I do not think anyone will disagree that that is the broad general principle on which we should proceed. If it be shown that our law does not carry out that principle I make no doubt that some change ought to be made. Whether it does or does not it is not for me, speaking for the Foreign Office, to discuss. I have not the means or the information which would enable me to go into those questions which have been raised as to the trading of the Copper Trust, or the Sanatogen Company, or Siemens, or any other firm. I am going to make an appeal to the Committee. I do hope that they will not kill this Bill by trying to make it bigger than it ought to be. This is really a very urgent matter which I have ventured to bring before Parliament. I think its importance cannot be overestimated. It is quite a definite evil which I propose to deal with, and though this Bill goes beyond in its terms that evil, yet I am going to ask the Committee to discuss the Amendments to this Bill with reference to that evil and that evil alone, because I am quite sure that if there is an attempt to make this Bill into a Bill to deal with both the home situation and the neutral situation you will only have extremely bad legislation which will be ineffective for both purposes. My hon. and learned Friend wishes to make this Bill apply to home trade. He wishes to say that every person of enemy nationality—
Or enemy association.
Yes, or enemy association, which is still wider, shall be treated as an enemy for the purposes of the Trading with the Enemy Act. He does not propose, I observe, a definition of enemy association, and I think he will find it an extremely difficult thing to do. But what is the frame of this Bill? The frame of the Bill is to make it an offence—and this is the broad principle; I am not dealing with technicalities at all—to make it an offence if anyone deals with a person who is put on a black list as a person of enemy nationality. But my hon. and learned Friend proposes to abolish the black list and to say that it should be an offence to deal with any person of enemy nationality or enemy association. Just look what that would mean. I am sure my hon. Friend does not mean this. But observe how it would work. Suppose there was a German baker. Very likely he ought to have been interned.
Of course he ought.
I dare say he ought; but suppose for the moment he is there? You should make him an enemy for the purposes of the Enemy Trading Act. If anyone goes in, any old woman not noticing the name over the shop, and buys a roll she becomes guilty of a misdemeanour and can be sent to prison. That would be the effect of the legislation. Further than that, he may have the name of Brown or Jones, yet if in point of fact he has got his capital from enemy sources in a way which nobody would know unless they had an opportunity of investing in. the firm, anyone dealing however innocently with that person would be guilty under my hon. Friend's proposal of a misdemeanour. I am quite sure that that is not the way to deal with this particular evil. That is as far as the home situation is concerned. As I say, I am not going to discuss it in detail, because I am not competent to do so. But it does not appear to me that even from the home point of "view it would be a good way of dealing with the evil. When we come to the neutral trading, which I have tried to understand, I do hope and trust that this Amendment striking out the black list will not be adopted. I am quite sure it would be utterly unworkable to deal with the whole of the neutral trade of the world by saying it shall be an offence for a British subject to deal with any person of enemy nationality or association, wherever he may live—in America, or Africa, or Asia, or wherever it was—merely because he was of enemy nationality or enemy association, without any warning by means of a list that they ought not to deal with him. Just consider the result even in the United States. There are thousands, hundreds of thousands, of firms where one partner is a German. The firm would be mainly probably American, but there is one partner a German. It might well be said that such a firm was a firm of enemy association, and any British subject who had any dealings with that firm, unless this Bill were a mere farce, would be guilty of a misdemeanour. I am sure that that could not work. I have tried to go into this matter very carefully for the purpose of making an effective start in destroying, as far as it can be destroyed, in injuring as far as it can be injured, German trade in neutral countries. I am sure that if you were to pass any Bill on any such lines as my hon. and learned Friend suggests it would be totally unworkable and a mere dead letter. I am anxious to save the Bill, if I can, as a practical measure; that is the only object I have. I hope the Committee will not be led away by the very natural indignation which we all feel against Germans and their ways into making a perfectly unworkable measure.
I attach enormous importance to the procedure proposed, to begin with. There are many countries in South America where the trade of this country and the trade of the German trader is very closely intermingled, and if you were merely to strike out immediately that German trader you would inflict a very serious injury on the trade of this country. I am assured by all those who have any knowledge of the actual trading conditions that you would dislocate trade to such an extent that you would very largely diminish the export trade of this country, throw British trade into neutral hands, and do great injury to the trade of this country, while your object was to do injury to German trade. After all, we want to be reasonable. We do not want to injure German trade unless we can do it so as to give this country an advantage. That is the object we have in view. I think it of enormous importance that we should have this measure in a flexible form. You begin by striking out all British inter-course with those German firms which are clearly part of this great German organisation, which I quite agree is a great danger to us and to civilisation. I want to strike out these firms which are really an essential part of the German Government. Then I want to add to the list, as it can be done, without injuring British trade, other German firms. And not only German firms; because the moment you cut off a German firm from British intercourse it hands over its business to some neutral firm, and you must have power to put that neutral firm on the black list—that is why we have introduced the words "enemy association"—if you are to make your prohibition really effective. There is another thing. Suppose you find a neutral firm doing a great deal of German business—in effect a German firm, but not of German nationality. It is very important for you to be able to go to this firm and say, "We shall be forced to put you on the black list if you go on doing in effect German trade." If you put them on the black list they may come and say, "We will cut off our German connection altogether if you take us off the black list." You will then have achieved a great advantage to this country without doing the harm you necessarily would do if you dislocated trade in the way I have described. I am speaking from the experience of those who have worked a similar system in other countries where it is in force. In China, Siam, Nigeria, Morocco, and, I think, Portuguese East Africa—a certain number of places of that kind—it has been found of the greatest possible value to have this practical system. I hope my hon. and learned Friend will think twice before he tries to strike out of the Bill what is really, to my mind, a very essential part of it, namely, the black-list part.
Does the Noble Lord intend the Committee to understand that there are already black lists in China and those other countries that he mentioned, and that trading is prohibited with the firms on those black lists?
Yes, Sir.
In China?
Yes, Sir. There is a double system there—a black list for certain firms and a white list for certain other firms. I do not want to weary the House by going into the whole details of the Chinese scheme, but we have made arrangements for British subjects in China. We have there an advantage and a capacity for dealing with that position which we have not in ordinary neutral countries. That is why we have not proceeded in that way in ordinary neutral countries. I merely mention what has been our experience of this kind of procedure and legislation in China. We know we have done very great injury to German trade in that country. Our efforts have been successful, and have created wonderfully little disturbance to British trade. Therefore this Bill is not mere theory; we are proceeding from practical experience. I do very much hope that nothing will be done by this Committee to interfere with that. I must ask my hon. and learned Friend not to imagine that I for a moment undervalue the eloquent denunciations of the German peril to this country. I do not wish to say one word that would derogate from what he said on that subject.
I do not, however, want him, in his enthusiasm for that cause, to twist this Kill into a purpose for which it is not meant. I quite agree with him that if other legislation is necessary—and on that I have already expressed my inability to speak—it should be of quite a different character to the legislation proposed in this Bill. This Bill is certainly not the kind of thing to be recommended for that. We do not want every old woman or child who deals with a person of German association to be guilty of a misdemeanour. You want to sweep away, if you can, those firms which you do want to sweep away and preserve those firms you desire to preserve by direct legislation and not by indirect methods. I ask the Committee to leave the essential part of the machinery of the Bill as it is, because I am quite sure that to adopt the proposal of my hon. and learned Friend would be-to render this Bill entirely unworkable, and to throw upon the Departments that would have to carry it out such a vast amount of detail that they possibly could not do it. The detail is very considerable in this Bill. We shall have to make an entirely new set of arrangements—almost a new office—in order to carry out the purpose of the Bill. To try to adopt the proposal of my hon. and learned Friend would simply mean that this Bill would be ineffective. In their desire to extend and strengthen it hon. Members would really destroy the whole usefulness of the Bill.
I am sure the Committee will have heard with very great interest the speech of the Noble Lord, which, if I may say so, is more conciliatory than some of the speeches we have recently heard from him.
I have only made one other speech.
The Noble Lord, I think, will agree with me in this. It is not quite a correct phrase to say that my hon. and learned Friend was twisting this Bill so as to apply it to home trade, because really the words are clear and explicit.
I hope my hon. Friend will not try to convict me of anything of that kind. I am sure my hon. and learned Friend did not understand me as meaning anything offensive to him. I merely say the machinery of this Bill was designed for a particular purpose, and not for the purpose the hon. and learned Member desires.
The Noble Lord will accept it from me that I did not mean it offensive in any way. As I understand, the Noble Lord's point was that this Bill was prepared and was designed to deal with foreign firms in neutral countries and for that only, but somehow other words have been used in the Bill, no doubt inadvertently, including traders at home. That is the position. The Noble Lord says that, that ought to be brought about by direct legislation dealing with that specific point. The Noble Lord, only a short time ago, told us that if this Bill did not pass soon it would be in peril. Yet we have no opportunity for serious criticism, and I think those of us who feel rather strongly on this matter are bound in duty to ourselves to grasp this opportunity, if it is an opportunity, of dealing with this topic. The real point of the Amendment is this: The Noble Lord used the words "black list" and "white list." We say the presumption is that you ought not to deal with any of these firms of enemy nationality and enemy association unless you have a licence to do so given by the Government. That is our position. The Noble Lord says, "Oh, yes, you may deal with them all unless they are on my black list." The Noble Lord believes in the black list; we believe in the white list. That is to say, in our view the presumption is that it is wrong to deal with any of these firms unless the Government thinks it right; the Noble Lord says it is right to deal with all these firms until the Government thinks it wrong. That raises, at any rate, a clear issue between us. I am quite free to confess that what the Noble Lord said about his own ministerial experience impresses me. The black list must necessarily be a small one, and the white one would necessarily be larger.
Suppose you adopt my hon. and learned Friend's proposal, you would immediately have, I do not know what—"enemy association" is the phrase—you would have almost every firm in New York on your list immediately. You would have to examine each of them and see which could be safely struck out. That is a work no Department could possibly undertake.
I feel the force of what the Noble Lord says, but I do not think he must put on us the vagueness of the term "enemy association." It is his phrase, and it is his Bill.
It is a black list.
So be it. Do I understand, then, that the black list is to be a larger one than the white list? Here are a certain number of firms, some of which you can trade with and some of which you cannot. If you cannot trade with them you put them on the black list. I take it that will involve a great deal of labour to find out the black list, because I presume they are so numerous. On the other hand, if you say wherever there is a firm with which you can trade, that list will be a very short one, and the work of the Foreign Office will be very much more expedited. We think the presumption should be on the Government, at any rate, to say this particular firm is a firm with whom you may trade, not because it is going to do good to Germany but because it is going to do good to this country. That is the real point. With regard to the home trade, if it is within the purview of the Bill, if this Amendment is not accepted, it will not become a practical question because it is to be done by Proclamation, and if it is not intended to be within the purview of the Bill no Proclamation will be issued dealing with the home trade. Apart from what the Noble Lord has said, I have such confidence in him that I think if this Amendment is carried he will be able to carry it out.
I associate myself with what the right hon. Gentleman opposite has said with respect to the full and frank statement made by the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs. Let me assure him that so far as I have been able to ascertain, there is in no quarter of the House any desire either to oppose or delay the progress of this Bill. I am sure that that is a correct representation of the opinion of all parties in the House. There is a view that we want to make it as strong and effective as possible. I heard with the greatest satisfaction that part of the speech of the Noble Lord in which he associated himself with the views many of us hold with regard to the very serious matter of German trading in this country. I think we may take it that the Noble Lord agrees with us as to the peril which exists at the present time in regard to the ridiculous position of the trading question. We find Germany, by mere registration here, can carry on her business here, and that ought to be stopped at once; in fact, it ought to have been stopped long ago. The reason why this question has been raised at all is, in the first place, because there was not the opportunity here which is afforded in another place where they can introduce a Bill and get it printed. We have this matter brought down here for our consideration, and we are compelled to let no opportunity go past without taking full advantage of it if it deals with a question which we regard as being of the most vital importance and interest.
We have taken this course because we consider that throughout the whole of this War the Government have been weak with respect to this matter. Take, for example, the admission of the Noble Lord that the Bill he is now proposing is a measure to stop an essential part of the trading machinery of the German Government. This is seventeen months after the War began when the Noble Lord tells us this is an essential part of the trading machinery of the German Government, which he is anxious to stop by the Bill before us. We shall help him to do everything we can, but are we to blame for pointing out that if the situation is really so serious as this we consider the Government are very much to blame for not asking for this power before. So far as neutral countries are concerned, I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will have the whole House with him. There will be difficulties in carrying these proposals out, especially in regard to associations, because after all this word is going to lay itself open possibly to false representations. Say you have a body of tradesmen in a neutral country, and you have a particular competitor who may not be willing to associate himself with a particular chamber of commerce or guild to which the others belong, and he is probably doing a great part of legitimate trade outside enemy considerations altogether. I can quite conceive that this particular tradesman who may stand better in the eyes of the Government than the other firms may make representations in his case which might be wholly unfounded and unfair. I hope the Noble Lord will take power in this Bill, as far as possible, to provide machinery which will be effective and on which he can rely to see that no real injustice is done as a result of competitive trading.
I sympathise with the Noble Lord in his view as to the possible future of this Bill. He naturally desires that it should be limited to the purpose which he had in view when the Bill was presented and to get it through as quickly as possible, and he asks us to waive the opportunity which we have of dealing with what he recognises is a very urgent and pressing question in order that he may get the Bill at Once to effect an object with which we all undoubtedly sympathise. Will the Home Secretary or the Solicitor-General tell us that they agree with the Noble Lord in the opinion which he has expressed as to the danger of this enemy trading which is going on and which has been so eloquently exposed by my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Butcher)? Will they give us their assurance that before this House adjourns—there is plenty of time for it—they will submit a Bill to deal with the home question as they have dealt with the question abroad. If they will do that and I do not see why it should not be a very short Bill, it will greatly facilitate the progress of this Bill. We have long since passed the stage when any Parliamentary formula is going to deal with this question. People outside simply cannot understand why the Government have not woke up to this question long ago. They cannot understand why you are allowing Germans here under the guise of British names to take trade away from British firms whose partners are fighting at the front at the present time. It is unjust to your own people, and it is a thing which cannot possibly be defended. For my part—I speak for no one but myself—if the Government will give us an assurance that they will submit a small Bill on the lines of this Bill dealing with the home situation, I think the House will probably be content, at any rate, not to unnecessarily delay the progress of this Bill. I under-stand that we are going to sit on Friday this week. We will sit on Saturday if necessary to carry the Bill. If we cannot have that assurance, then, so far as I am concerned, believing the question is so pressing and the danger so great, I think that we ought not, in the best interests of this country, to lose any opportunity in this Bill of forcing our views within the four corners of it. I should hope that would not be necessary, but I do not think that we ought to allow the Bill to go until we have a plain statement as to the views of the Government on this matter. If we cannot have them to-night, we need not unnecessarily delay the proceedings to give the Government time to consider it in order that to-morrow or the next day we may have a full statement on the subject.
I want, if I can, to get at what is the general feeling of the Committee, and then to see if the Bill as drafted accords with that feeling. I take it from what has fallen from previous speakers that we want to see two things carried out. First of all, that traders in England should be prohibited from trading with those of enemy association in neutral countries; and, next, that really German firms in England should be prohibited from carrying on trade with English people to the detriment of English firms who might do the same trade. As to the first part, it is quite clear that that is within the purview of the Bill. You can by this Bill prohibit anybody in England carrying on trade with people of enemy association in neutral countries. As to the second desire of the Committee, it is quite clear to me, speaking as a lawyer, that this Bill, at any rate, goes half-way. It does in terms give power to prohibit these persons from trading in England with people of enemy nationality or enemy association. Whether it is intended or not. I have no doubt that that is the result of the Bill as it stands. The first part it is intended to carry out. The second I understand is not the object of the Government, but, as the words stand, to my mind it is the effect of the Bill.
What is the question we are considering at the present time? It is simply this—whether procedure by Proclamation is the best procedure to carry out what everybody desires the Bill should do. Let us think what the practical difficulties of the situation are. Somebody has got to make inquiries—somebody has got to determine first of all whether you should stop an Englishman from trading either with a trader in a neutral place or with a trader in England. The next thing you have to determine, when you are dealing either with the co-trader or the trader who is beyond our shores, who is either situated in a neutral country or, if this Bill stands as framed, is at home—somebody has got to determine whether the person to whom these goods are to be sent—because that is the form of trade we have in view—is of enemy nationality or of enemy association. Who is going to determine that question? How are you to do it? For goodness sake do not let us get to the Courts of Law. Let us have somebody who can determine this question quickly and without expense. Who are the people who have the information at their fingers' ends? Surely the Foreign Office. They have all sorts of bodies and committees sitting to investigate these facts. They have information at their fingers' ends which probably is not open to us. They have followed from the beginning of this War all this trading from within with those who are without, and they are the people who of all others should know—and I am willing to suppose they do know—the trading that is dangerous and that ought to be stopped. What better means can you adopt than a Proclamation issued at the instance of those who know and have the information to determine who may trade from here and those who may or may not trade in other countries?
Some one has to determine, and I do ask the House when they are considering this question to look at it, not so much from the sentimental side—although I believe it is also a proper and ethical point—as from the practical side, how is this Bill to be made to work? The Government desire to carry out the intentions of all of us. The question is one of procedure, and if you are going to do away with this system of Proclamation you will get into an inchoate condition. If it is anybody's job to determine you may have long inquiries, and in the end the object of the Bill will have passed away and will have been frustrated, and this trading, which ought to be stopped at once, will have been going on all the time. Therefore I suggest, so far as concerns the point we are considering at present, namely, whether or not Proclamation is the right procedure, that it is the only procedure which common sense dictates to us, and it is the procedure which is in the minds of those who have the information, and that the hon. and learned Member who moved this Amendment so eloquently and well will, perhaps, consider whether he would not give way upon that point and allow the Bill to proceed with Proclamation as the form of procedure to stop this form of trading, which we all desire to stop.
The hon. and learned Member (Mr. Hume-Williams) has brought the Committee back to the practical point as to how this Bill will work. The hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Butcher), in moving this Amendment, must himself have recognised that there were difficulties in the way of its working, because he asked the Committee not to look at the terms of the Amendment, but to deal with the general question involved in it. When a very able lawyer and experienced draftsman asks the Committee not to look at the terms of his Amendment so much as its general principle, it is an admission that the Amendment is not one that will work. No one has yet ventured to deal with the unanswerable instance brought forward by the Noble Lord the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs with regard to the way in which the proposal of the hon. and learned Member for York would work in the case of the poor baker and the poor people trading with such a person. I am quite aware that many Members of the Committee may feel that all such persons, however small, ought to be swept out of the country. There is, however, one case which would appeal to everyone in the Committee which this Amendment would raise, and which would be one of very real hardship.
There are in this country some hundreds—I am not sure that I should not be correct in saying some thousands—of British women who are the wives of German alien enemies. Some of them were not aware, at the time they married their husbands, that they were technically alien enemies. Some of them were engaged in a little business before their marriage. These people are technically, although not really, enemy aliens. By the terms of the hon. and learned Member's Amendment, anybody who went into a shop owned by such a poor person would be subject to the penalties imposed by the Bill, and no doubt the woman herself would be convicted. There is quite a number of cases of this kind where very real, practical difficulties would be raised. I could give the hon. Member instances known to me personally.
There is another Amend merit which provides for a licence.
It would be practically impossible for the Home Office to go into all these cases and licence everybody to trade with such a person. If hon. Members will look at that Amendment, they will see that the licence proposed is not to be given to the alien enemy, but to the person who is to trade with the alien enemy. Therefore, in this particular case I have mentioned of the Englishwoman who had a laundry before she married a German who is now interned, anybody who went to that laundry would have to obtain a licence from the Home Office before he could send his clothing to be washed by a woman who does not speak a word of German, who has never been out of the country, and who nevertheless is technically an alien enemy. It is quite impossible that the hon. and learned Member for York, with his generous heart, could have meant to touch a case of that kind. I am quite sure that he himself would recognise the very important and great issue he raises. It could not be met adequately by the terms of his Amendment, therefore I hope the Committee will not accept it.
My hon. Friends, I do not think are to be criticised for bringing forward the question of trading in England in connection with this Bill, but I am glad to learn that they will not jeopardise it by persisting in this Amendment. I strongly support this Bill as it is, and as it is intended to be, and I am quite sure the whole House would desire that it should be passed. The object which this Bill, as drawn up, desires to secure is one that the House desires to secure and, as I understand the Amendment, it is not to stop anything being done which would be done under the Bill, but to do something more than is here suggested. I think the House finds itself in a certain difficulty in trying to amend a Bill which is designed for one object by turning it into something else, through having overridden one of its old custome, and that is to let any private Member bring in a Bill which he considers necessary. I believe the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Butcher) would have brought in a private Bill which would have attained the object which he desires if he had been at liberty to do so; but I do not think it would be the Bill which his Amendment would produce. I think it would have been a very different measure entirely. I think the Committee ought to consider whether there were not classes of traders who can only be got at by the machinery of the Bill, by Proclamation and by a black list. They are not within our reach, and we cannot seize them. We cannot deal with their businesses. We can only warn our own fellow subjects not to deal with them. I do not think a mere measure saying, "You must not deal with firms of enemy association," would be of much good for neutral countries. I do not think the suggestion made from the Front Opposition Bench that we should have a white list would be effective. You must have a black list. No doubt the Foreign Office has firms at present in its eye which it wishes at once to put on the black list. To have a white list is to give a guarantee. How are they to guarantee non-enemy association to firms in North and South America and in the East? I think the principle of the black list is the one which would be most effective in connection with most firms in neutral countries. I do not wish to discuss with my hon. Friends the case of the hyphenated Englishman in England at all. If there are Germans here who are trading and ought not to do, why are they not interned, and if they have businesses such as should be carried on why do we not administer them? I do not think you should simply black list a firm in England, and I do not think you should simply in a wholesale manner anathematise firms in neutral countries. The machinery under this Bill in my opinion would be inadequate for England. In all probability you need a stronger measure than this with very different machinery. There are two different classes to be dealt with—in neutral countries by this Bill; but the cases which are objected to in the British Isles need some strengthening of the present law.
This is a very simple matter. The Noble Lord can have his Bill to-night quite easily. We do not desire by means of this Bill to deal with trading with Germans in this country if the Government will promise that they will bring in another Bill and give us a proper opportunity of taking the sense of the House upon it so as to stop trading with Germans in this country. That is the whole issue. The question of an old woman buying a roll from a German baker does not really arise, because if the Bill were passed in this form you would put in words to say, "unless she did it knowingly," and that would settle the whole matter. The Noble Lord has said, "only those firms which are useful to this country should be allowed to trade here."
I said only those enemy firms.
That is so. Why cannot the Government promise to bring in a Bill to do that? If so, you would get your Bill to-night. The representative of the Board of Trade and the Home Secretary are here. Why cannot they say that they will do that? If not, the country will be very much disgusted to-morrow when they see from the newspapers that they were here and they did not do that. The Noble Lord says this Bill is to stop trading with Germans, and he begins with the neutral countries. We all wish to do that, and at once. I think we all agree that by means of a black list he is adopting not only the most effective but the only practical way of doing it. But why do not the Government take steps to deal with that which has been a crying grievance in the whole of the country and which the whole House wants to be done, with the exception perhaps of a few people who, for some reason or other, may have some sort of relation with German tradesmen or an interest in German business? I will give an instance—
I hope the hon. Member will not think me discourteous if I intervene to make a statement during the few minutes at my disposal between now and eleven o'clock, seeing that he has made an appeal to me. I do not want to intervene for the purpose of making a statement which is a mere abstract formula, because objection has been taken to it, and I quite understand that what the Committee desires is to have some assurance which they can feel content with in substance, and which may be definite as far as possible. I cannot hope between now and eleven o'clock to give such an assurance, but at the same time I quite see that the Committee desire that some statement should be made. If I, as an individual, have had something to do with this subject in the past, it has really been as Attorney-General, and not as Home Secretary. That is an additional reason why I feel a difficulty in making a statement about it in my present office. I have, however, had communications with my hon. Friends on this bench, and I think it may be possible to-morrow, or on whatever date to which this Debate is adjourned, for a statement to be made. I hope the Committee will be prepared to consider this particular Amendment on its own merits, namely, the proposal to substitute an abstract piece of legislation for the creation of a list by compilation. Of course, we cannot in the circumstances ask to go further until we have made some statement on the subject. It is very difficult to treat home trade and foreign trade in the same Bill. I do not think that is practicable at all. Of course, that is no reason why my right hon. Friend (Sir H. Dalziel) and others should not say, "We will take this opportunity, which is the only opportunity we have to-day, to see if we can get an assurance which will be satisfactory."
I think the House, while it welcomes the statement of the Home Secretary, will express a little surprise that a matter so important should not have received the consideration of the Home Office.
The Bill, as everyone can see, is a Foreign Office Bill, intended to deal with a Foreign Office matter, and there is not the remotest reason why I should know anything about it until it was pointed out in Debate that it applied to home trade.
It was pointed out on Monday night, when the Bill was read a Second time, that it obviously applied to home trade. In spite of that, it must surely have been within the knowledge of the Home Secretary that it extended to home trade. I hope that we shall not part from this Amendment until we have had the promised explanation from my right hon. Friend, because it is the only opportunity we have of raising an issue of such importance.
It being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Thursday).
The Remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Munitions of War (Salaries, Etc.)
Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the Salaries and Expenses of the Members and Officers appointed under any Act of the present Session to amend the Munitions of War Act, 1915—King's Recommendation signified)—Tomorrow.—[ Mr. Walter Rea. ]
Business of the House
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now Adjourn."
May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary about the business for tomorrow, and if the rumour of a Friday sitting is true what is to be the business on Friday?
The business as announced yesterday, will be the Gov- ernment War Obligations (No. 2) Bill, Committee; the War Loan (Supplemental Provisions) Bill, Committee; the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill, Report stage; and if time permits the continuation of the Committee stage of the Trading with the Enemy (Extension) Bill. On Friday it is proposed to take the Committee stage of the Munitions of War (Amendment) Bill.
Is that the only measure for Friday?
I think so; but the Prime Minister will make his statement to-morrow.
Is it not possible to give the House longer notice of Friday sittings? It would be very much more convenient to Members if earlier notice were given during the week. A great many Members have gone to the North of England, and it is unsatisfactory that a measure of this kind should be dealt with in their absence. They are business men and we need their assistance. They will only get notice of this Friday sitting in the papers to-morrow morning, and it is essential that we should have business men present for the consideration of the Bill.
May I enforce what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said? The view entertained by many private Members is that the Government should, as far as possible, give full notice of the business that is to be taken. Nobody knew that to-day's proceedings would take the course they have; it was not anticipated. Many Members were anxious to take part in the proceedings on the Trading with the Enemy Bill. There was no mention of it in the Government Whips, and I do not think it is quite fair—although we have no control in the matter—that we should not have full notice. I think the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury should, as far as possible, give hon. Members due notice of the business which is to be taken. May I suggest to him that he should see the Prime Minister to-morrow morning and endeavour to persuade him to give us a statement as to the day on which he anticipates the House can adjourn? Many Members have engagements of a public nature outside this House, and it is quite impossible for us to make any definite engagements. I think it would be a great advantage to every one if the Prime Minister would say to-morrow on what day he proposes to adjourn. I presume all thought now of Prorogation is out of the question, notwithstanding Friday sittings, and even late sittings. I hope we will be able at least to know on what day the Government propose to suggest the Adjournment of the House.
I quite accept the criticism of the hon. and learned and of the right hon. Gentleman in the matter of business, but the real trouble is, just as the right hon. Gentleman said, that the course of business in this House does so often, especially recently, take a course not at all anticipated. It is extremely difficult to say exactly a week ahead, or even a day ahead, what time there will be for a particular measure. I hope when hon. Members wish to get through Bills they will realise it is only by courtesy we can make progress with our measures. I hope that the Prime Minister will make a full statement to-morrow as to the business for next week.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Five minutes after Eleven o'clock.