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Commons Chamber

Volume 76: debated on Thursday 16 December 1915

House of Commons

Thursday, December 16, 1915

National Insurance Act

Copy presented of Regulations, dated 10th December, 1915, made by the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Compensation Agreements) Regulations (Wales), 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 403.]

Diseases of Animals Acts

Copies presented of Orders 9,620 and 9,625, defining Foreign Animals Quarantine Stations in the Port of London for the purposes of the Foreign Animals (Quarantine) Order of 1896 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Greece and Allied Powers

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is yet in a position to make any statement with regard to the position of Greece and the Entente Powers?

The immediate objects of the Allied Powers are to regularise the military position, and to deny to Bulgaria and the Central Powers any control, direct or indirect, over Solonika. This we believe to be in accordance with the wishes of Greece herself, and negotiations are being actively pursued to this end. His Majesty's Government hope that these negotiations may shortly reach a satisfactory conclusion. It is not possible to say more at present, but full information will be given to the House as soon as possible.

British Prisoners of War

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether his attention has been called to the allegations of cruelty and neglect to our prisoners of war at Sennelager; and whether he has received any report from the American Ambassador to Berlin as to the conditions at such camps?

Very unsatisfactory reports have been received from time to time as to the conditions obtaining at Sennelager, but I am glad to say that a report was received in September from the United States Ambassador at Berlin showing that a substantial improvement had taken place. This report has been published to-day in a White Paper together with a number of reports on other camps in Germany.

Can the Noble Lord state with certainty that provisions and comforts sent to these soldiers and officers in the internment camps are received by them, or are the soldiers robbed of them by their captors?

So far as my information goes it is that all parcels sent from this country are received by prisoners—at least, I hope so. If my hon. Friend has any knowledge of any that have not been received I hope he will communicate with me at once, and I will make representations.

China

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any information with respect to the recent revolutionary incident at Shanghai; if he can state how long it lasted; and whether order is completely restored?

I have no information on the subject beyond what has appeared in the Press, and I gather that order has been restored.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether he has any official information showing that the International Settlements are the haunts of Chinese malcontents who are plotting against the Chinese authorities; whether the late Governor of Shanghai arsenal, Admiral Tseng, was actually assassinated in the International Settlement at Shanghai; and whether the local authorities are taking all possible steps to prevent seditious movements being organised in these settlements against a friendly nation?

I have at the present moment no official information of the nature described, but the International Settlement at Shanghai is no doubt used from time to time as a refuge for Chinese malcontents and as a base for plotting. The answers to the inquiries in the last part of the question are both in the affirmative.

Sir John Jordan

asked whether Sir John Jordan, His Majesty's representative in China, is shortly vacating his post; and whether in that case Mr. Max Müller has been selected to replace him?

There is no foundation whatever for the report to this effect which appeared recently in the Press.

Has not the statement mentioned in the question been widely circulated in the Press during the last few weeks, and is it not causing great uneasiness in the Far East? Is it desirable to wait for a Parliamentary answer to obtain a contradiction?

I am sorry. It is my duty to see the reports in the Press. This particular report has not reached me. As to the question as to what is proper action in relation to these reports it is very difficult to say. I do not think that it is an integral part of the duty of the Government to contradict every unfounded report published.

Does not the Noble Lord think, seeing there is so much uneasiness among people in the Far East on a question like this, that it is the duty of the Foreign Office to take notice of it?

No such report as that contained in the question on the Paper reached me at the Foreign Office.

Rumania (Shipping)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any official information regarding the reported action by the Rumanian Government in commandeering all shipping; and whether any British vessels are affected and what is the position of the owners?

All river tugs and the greater number of lighters in Rumania have been requisitioned by the Rumanian Government, though certain formalities have still to be completed. Vessels requisitioned are, however, allowed to ply between Rumanian ports with a military guard on board to control their movements. The measure does not apply to sea-going vessels. There are no British tugs and only a few British lighters on the Danube. These, seeing that they may still, under the condition already stated, ply between Rumanian ports, are hardly affected by the requisition, as they could not, of course, in any case proceed to enemy ports.

Trading With German Firms in Neutral Countries

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state in what English Statute it is provided that an enemy living in a neutral country is for belligerent purposes treated as a neutral, and that consequently it is no offence for a British subject to trade with a German firm in neutral countries?

I am not aware that the matter is dealt with in any Statute. The principle has been established by a long series of decisions in the Courts of this country.

America and Germany (Food by Post)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has received any information that large shipments of food are being sent from America to Germany through the post; and if he has made any representations to the United States Government on the subject?

Yes, Sir, reports have been received that considerable quantities of food are being sent from America to Germany by parcels post. We are in communication with our Ambassador at Washington, and other steps have been taken to deal with the matter effectually.

Have any instructions been given to the Navy in regard to the matter?

I do not think it is very convenient to state what instructions have been given to the Navy.

An HON. MEMBER: Have the Government given any?

Can the Noble Lord say whether the precautions are being taken to use the Postal Treaty, which guarantees the neutrality and inviolability of post-office matter passing at all times between neutral countries?

I cannot admit my hon. Friend's account of the Postal Treaty at all; in any case it does not apply to the parcels post.

Danish Trade Agreement

LONSDALE asked if the refusal to publish the particulars of the Danish trading agreement is dictated solely by the wishes of the Danish parties to the arrangement?

The publication of such an Agreement as this is objectionable on several grounds. In the first place, there are the other parties to it and their wishes to be considered. In the second, so far as the Agreement is advantageous to this country, a publication of its terms rouses the opponents of this country to opposition to it and to all similar Agreements in the future. In the third place, if one Agreement is published, it makes a precedent for a demand for the publication of other similar Agreements—a precedent which would be inimical to the public interest in several ways, notably, by making it much more difficult to bargain with other parties in the future. All these reasons apply to the Danish Agreement.

May I inquire whether the contents of this Agreement are known to hundreds of people in Denmark, and also in Germany?

With the greatest respect to my hon. Friend, I rather doubt whether it is true. The accounts that I have seen of this Agreement are wholly misleading.

Have the contents of the Agreement with the Netherlands Overseas Trust just been made public?

Is it the Danish parties to this Agreement that have objected to its publication—that is the question on the Paper?

I do not think that it is right to press me to go further than I have done. I have given a very full answer to the question—as full an answer as I think I can give. I do not think it is fair to press me further.

Recruiting

Somerset House Officials

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the Inland Revenue authorities at Somerset House have quite recently intimated to young men of twenty or twenty-one in Somerset House, who want to join the Colours, that they cannot be released from their official duties; and whether he would make inquiries as to whether this routine work could be equally well done by girls, so that this Government Department could set an example to other employers?

The Commissioners of Inland Revenue have granted permission to all their staff of military age to join the Army by entering Section B, Army Reserve. When the group to which an individual officer belongs is called up, the question of his release will be carefully considered by the Commissioners with due regard to the collection of revenue necessary for the prosecution of the War.

Royal Navy Recruits

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether recruits enlisting under Lord Derby's scheme in their appropriate group for service in the Royal Navy have the same privilege extended to them of appealing to a local tribunal for exemption as recruits have who join His Majesty's Army?

Men attested under Lord Derby's scheme—the particular form of recruiting under which has, I understand, now closed—who express a preference to serve in the Royal Navy have the same privilege of appealing to local tribunals as other men enrolled in the Army Reserve, Class B. If not required for the naval service, they will still be liable for service in the Army. Under the scheme of entry in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve under the group system, for future service in the Royal Navy, a scheme which, as distinct from Lord Derby's scheme, is still in operation, only men are eligible for entry who are free to come up for service when summoned in their group at any time within the next nine months. Postponement from group to group is not contemplated under this scheme, and the arrangements under the Army scheme for appeals to local tribunals are therefore not applicable. Particulars of the scheme have already appeared in the Press, and I shall be happy to send my hon. Friend a copy of them.

May I ask whether naval recruits are on a similar footing to Army recruits—that is, single men first and married men afterwards?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that regulations issued by the Admiralty in this respect were issued so late that a great number of men enlisted in the Army who wished to enlist in the Navy?

I should imagine they would have an opportunity of stating their preference if that is so.

Does the right hon. Gentleman admit the statement that anyone enlisting under the Derby scheme can apply for exemption or for reconsideration in a new group?

Armlets

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, seeing that armlets are now issued to discharged unfit soldiers, he will say if it is proposed to issue armlets to sailors who have been discharged from the Navy through wounds received in action or illness contracted during the War?

The answer is in the affirmative. I would refer my hon. Friend to the announcement issued to the Press on the 10th instant, a copy of which I shall be happy to send him.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether Lord Derby's object in issuing armlets is to draw attention to persons of military age who have not attested; whether he is aware that persons over and under military age are insulted in the streets and public places for not having registered; and whether it is proposed to issue armlets to persons over and under military age of a distinctive character to put a stop to this state of affairs?

I was not myself aware that persons of hoary and of tender years were subjected to insults in streets and in public places for not having registered. As the compliance with the suggestion of my hon. Friend would involve the issue of armlets to nearly the whole of the male population, I am afraid that I cannot promise that armlets will be issued on the scale suggested.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question on the Paper: whether the object of Lord Derby in issuing these armlets was to draw attention to persons of military age who had not attested? I desire to know, if the armlet has been issued for this particular purpose, why the finger of scorn should be pointed to boys and persons over forty who have not registered?

I think that my hon. Friend is quite right in assuming that the issue of the armlets was for the purpose he named. It is quite obvious. All I suggest is that if everybody who is either below or above military age were to be given armlets, then you would have armlets practically for the whole of the male population of the country.

Is it not a fact that you have taken thousands of boys of fourteen, fifteen, and sixteen years of age?

Lord Derby's Scheme

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government on the Army Vote next week to give full details as to the number of men who have enlisted, the number of authorised exemptions, and the number of unmarried men who have not responded to Lord Derby's appeal; and whether this information will be circulated to Members before the Debate?

I shall give the House the fullest information in my power, but I fear it will not be possible to circulate any statement before Tuesday.

Munitions

Employment of Women

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has yet taken any action to induce the munitions employers of Glasgow and the West of Scotland to employ women who have never before worked for a wage in order to prevent what is already taking place, namely, the depletion of women workers at all other trades in the neighbourhood, particularly muslin manufacturing and carpet weaving; and has he informed the employers there of the success of the method followed in Dundee and Aberdeen national shell factories, namely, employing women who have not before been engaged in any trade?

asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that in the textile industries many women skilled in their work but entirely ignorant of anything in connection with the making of munitions are being tempted to leave their employment for that of munition making by the promise of higher wages; whether he is aware that their services are required for the making of textile fabrics for Army and other clothing and for the maintenance of exports; and if he will try to arrange that no such person shall be engaged until inquiry has been made at the Labour Exchanges with a view of ascertaining if there is a supply of women equally suitable who are not so necessary in their present employment?

I am fully aware of the desirability of exercising suitable precautions in the recruitment of women for munition work, so as to avoid, as far as possible, difficulties of the nature referred to by my hon. Friend. The object desired can only be achieved fully if the women are exclusively drawn through a channel over which central control can be exercised. I have accordingly caused a circular to be addressed to munition factories drawing their attention to this point, and requesting them to carry out the engagement of their women through the National Labour Exchange system. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the letter in question. I understand from inquiries that I have made that the great bulk of employers in the Glasgow and West of Scotland recruiting women are doing so almost entirely through the Labour Exchange system. So far as the Department is able to control the supply of women workers, it will take steps to secure that the recruitment of munition workers shall cause the minimum disturbance of local industries. It is not necessary to confine the recruiting entirely to women who have never before worked for a wage, because in the district referred to there are a number of dressmakers and tailoresses unemployed, who are willing to undertake this work and are suitable for it.

Has the right hon. Gentleman not had any complaints from Glasgow and the West of Scotland about the depletion in the two trades mentioned?

My attention has not been drawn to these complaints, but I will make inquiries.

Railway Trucks (Shortage)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware of the general shortage of railway trucks required for the transport of goods; and whether he will issue peremptory instructions to those responsible for handling the-goods required for or on behalf of his Department that all railway wagons shall be unloaded promptly in order to minimise the shortage of wagons as much as possible?

Complaints have been received of shortage of railway trucks, and the subject is reviewed at weekly conferences between the Ministry and the Railway Executive. Contractors are being urged to discharge all vehicles promptly. The question is the subject of close attention and further action will be taken as necessary in agreement with the Railway Executive Committee.

Has my right hon. Friend received complaints from the electrical department of Manchester with reference to the shortage of coal on account of railway wagons, and, if so, what action does he propose to take?

I should rather like my hon. Friend to put a question of that kind on the Paper.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a large number of railway trucks are out of use and cannot be restored for want of workmen?

If my hon. Friend tells me that I am not prepared to contradict him.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a great many trucks are being used when they are out of repair and will fall to pieces very soon?

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the general shortage of railway trucks required for the transport of goods and merchandise; and whether he will issue peremptory instructions to those responsible for handling the goods required for or on behalf of his Department that all railway wagons shall be unloaded promptly in order to decrease the shortage of wagons as much as possible?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the Admiralty is fully alive to the importance of the prompt release of wagons, and has from time to time issued instructions impressing upon officers concerned the importance of speedy clearance. A committee consisting of representatives of the railways and of the various Departments concerned is at present devoting a large part of its efforts to this question, and a proposal is under consideration for the appointment of two officers who would visit naval establishments, etc., where temporary railway congestion has occurred, in order to assist the local officers in the more rapid handling of railway rolling stock.

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

I beg to ask the Minister of Munitions whether he is in a position to give any information as to the statement ascribed to Lord D'Abernon that the recent Order made for London by the Board of Control was not made upon evidence but upon a letter from the Minister of Munitions?

I have communicated with Lord D'Abernon, who says that it was ridiculous to suppose that he had said that the decision of the Board of Control was not based upon evidence and upon careful consideration of the whole of the facts. The Board, after the most careful inquiries, submitted a draft Order scheduling London to the Ministry of Munitions and other interested authorities, and the Ministry assented to the issue of the Order. The initiative was taken by the Board of Control, but I thoroughly approved of their proposals and believed them to be required in the interest of the efficient output of munitions.

May we take it that we have in this answer an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he, at least, will not vary that decision of the Control Board?

Woolwich Arsenal (Wages)

asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that foremen and acting foremen in the Naval Ordnance depot at Woolwich Arsenal are receiving less pay for the actual number of hours worked than all subordinate grades acting under their direction; that foremen's wages do not rise with those of subordinate grades, and that they are not paid similar rates for overtime on Sundays and holidays as are their subordinates; and whether he will either better the working conditions of foremen or enable them to obtain a clear certificate of discharge in order to obtain other employment?

An increase in the minimum pay of temporary foremen in the Naval Ordnance Department, Woolwich Arsenal, has been sanctioned, and orders will be issued at once.

Questions

Aircraft Raids

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any special fund or provision is available for victims of Zeppelin raids who have been maimed or injured, and so impoverished or left unable to support themselves or their dependants, and for victims of the East Coast bombardments who have similarly suffered?

In cases of injury or death due to hostile aircraft or bombardment up to the 17th July last, relief was granted to the victims or their dependants by the Treasury on the recommendation of the East Coast Raid Committee. No special provision has been made from public funds for persons who have sustained injuries or to dependants of persons killed after that date, but the Committee of the National Relief Fund have undertaken to make grants from that fund by way of temporary relief in deserving cases.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether, under some future War Obligations Bill or otherwise, pro-vision might not be made for persons, say, who suffered in the air raid of 13th October in London? There were quite a large number of them.

If my hon. Friend wishes it, the point shall be reconsidered. It has already been the subject of inquiry.

asked how many abortive Zeppelin raids have taken place since the raid on the 13th October last; and whether London may now, under existing arrangements, be considered as reasonably safe against these attacks?

The answer to the first part of the question is none. With regard to the second part, as I stated yesterday in reply to a similar inquiry by my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen, I cannot add anything to the statements already made by my right hon. Friend the First Lord both in reply to questions and in the discussion on the Vote of Credit on 11th November.

Do I understand my right hon. Friend to say "none"—no abortive raids have been made?

Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that all raids on this country will be reported?

What does my right hon. Friend understand by an abortive raid?

An HON. MEMBER: When it is abortive.

I am not responsible for the question. I say the answer to the first part of the question is none.

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that local committees of the National Relief Fund have been instructed by the Government that relief given in cases of distress occasioned by death caused by hostile air raids should only be of a temporary character; and if the Government propose to grant something in the way of pensions to those who have lost their lives or are permanently disabled as a result of an air raid?

The Government Committee on the Prevention and Relief of Distress have advised the Committee of the National Relief Fund in the sense stated in the first part of the question. It is not proposed to grant special permanent pensions to dependants of persons killed or to persons disabled by air raids.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the War Office has in working order an efficient range-finder for Zeppelins?

Admiralty Work (Free Passes)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can say whether men employed away from their homes on Admiralty work are only granted free passes if engaged at the northern ports; and, if so, will he consider the advisability of extending the concessions to men at other stations far distant from their homes?

The matter is under consideration, though I must not be understood as giving any assurance in regard to it.

Dependants of Soldiers and Sailors

Maintenance of Lunatic

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty on what ground no allowance other than the very small sum made from the Patriotic Fund is made to the wife and children of a man who, by reason of the strain at the front, is now confined in the Naval Hospital for Lunatics at Great Yarmouth; and why this man's pension is not paid to the wife, seeing that the earnings of the family are insufficient for their support and maintenance?

The practice as regards the maintenance of a lunatic in the Naval Hospital at Great Yarmouth has so far been as follows:—Admission is confined to men entitled to a life pension. If insanity was not due to the Service, the man's treatment and maintenance have been met out of his pension, but an allowance of 6s. a week has been made to his wife or other dependant from the funds of Greenwich Hospital. If insanity was due to the Service, then the man has been maintained in the hospital at the expense of the State, and authority has been sought to make an allowance from his pension to any dependants, the amount of the allowance depending upon the degree of dependency. As regards men whose lunacy was attributable to the Service, the practice has recently been so far under consideration, that it has now been decided that full pay will be granted to the man for a period not exceeding eighteen months—if maintained in the hospital so long. In such a case where allotment has been in force, the wife would receive separation allowance from the State during that period.

Does that cover the case, which I recently brought to the right hon. Gentleman's notice, of a man from active service in hospital whose wife and family were starving?

Law Officers of the Crown

New Scale of Remuneration

asked the Attorney-General whether any change has been made in the terms of remuneration of the Law Officers; and, if so, whether he can state what the new arrangement is?

asked what arrangement has been made for reducing the remuneration of the Law Officers of the Crown during the War?

The English Law Officers, immediately after their appointment, considered the question of a reduction of their remuneration during the War. The remuneration consists, as the House is aware, of a fixed salary, with fees for contentious work. Any reduction of the Law Officers' salaries would, under arrangements with which the House is acquainted, fall upon some of their colleagues as well as themselves.

They were therefore of opinion that the reduction should be principally made in the fees. They proposed to the Prime Minister, on their appointment, that during the War the salary, as apart from the fees, of each Law Officer should be reduced by £1,000 per annum, and that a large reduction should be made in the scale of fees. The method of effecting the latter reduction involves a number of points of detail with which it is not necessary to trouble the House. The changes have already been in operation for many weeks.

It is estimated that these changes taken together will produce a reduction of about £5,000 per annum in the remuneration of each of the Law Officers, or £10,000 in all.

This reduction is anticipated not in relation to the figures for 1913–14, which have been much discussed, but in relation to the normal figure, which is considerably lower.

I may perhaps be allowed to add that the Law Officers, in making these proposals to the Prime Minister on their appointment, added the following observation:—

I desire to ask, in view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has stated that his salary is dependent upon the pool, whether we shall be entitled, now that that statement has been made officially from that Bench, to raise this question which the Prime Minister said was a matter of domestic arrangement, and I also ask whether it is not a fact that, notwithstanding the reduction named by the right hon. Gentleman, the fees paid to the Home Secretary in the last year of his office as Attorney-General amounted to £21,000?

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Treasury Minute of July, 1895, which fixed the old scale of salaries, will now be modified?

I must ask for notice of that question. Until I have consulted the Minute and refreshed my memory as to its details, I cannot say.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether precisely the same work will be done by these two Law Officers?

No, I cannot possibly say that. It may be that less work will be done in each case, and then the fees will be smaller; or it may be that more work will be done. I cannot say how many cases will arise, but if the hon. Member suggests the possibility that the Law Officers, because they are receiving less remuneration, will not attend to the same number of cases, if necessary, he is making a suggestion which has no foundation.

Has the right hon. Gentleman the authority of the Prime Minister for saying that his salary has been brought into the pool?

Questions

Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that, notwithstanding the provisions of the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill, rents of dwelling-houses to which the Bill applies are still being raised and ejectment orders granted; and what steps he-proposes to take in the matter?

The statements made by my hon. Friend point to the desirability of the Bill being promptly passed into law. I hope it may be possible to conclude its stages in the House to-day.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the landlords are still raising rents in London and threatening tenants, who will not pay with ejectment? Cannot some steps be taken to prevent this?

I doubt whether any Amendment could be made in the Bill which would enable us to deal with these cases, hard as they are and much as I deprecate them.

May I ask if notice could be given to the magistrates that the matter is under consideration and so avoid issuing orders for ejectment at this time of the year?

Government War Obligations (No. 2) Bill

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in relation to the Government War Obligations (No. 2) Bill, the expression of American and Canadian securities is intended to embrace similar investments in South America?

South American securities carrying the right to payment in the-United States of America in the currency of that country would fall within the scope of the scheme, but not South American securities payable only in sterling or in South American currencies.

War Loan (Soldiers' Investments)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that soldiers on active service abroad have been unable to invest in the War Loan except by incurring a loss of nearly 3s. in the £, owing to their being paid abroad in Foreign money, and so having to bear the loss in exchange; and whether he will make such arrangements as will obviate this hardship in the future, and enable soldiers desirous of lending money to their country to be credited for such purpose with the full English face value of their Army pay?

The hon. Member has been misinformed. The procedure is: The soldier makes his application through his commanding officer, who informs the General Post Office and the Army Paymaster at home. The amount the soldier wishes to invest is charged to his account by the Army Paymaster. No cash is remitted by the soldier, so that the question of loss by exchange does not arise.

Royal Flying Corps

Messing Charges

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, in the unit of the Royal Flying Corps stationed at Swingate Downs, Dover, the inclusive messing charges amount to about 7s. a day, from which ration allowances are to be deducted; and whether he will have an inquiry into the circumstances under which these charges have been permitted, notwithstanding the searching inquiry made by the War Office in order to prevent unnecessary expenditure?

I have not yet received a report on this subject, but am expecting one. If it should disclose necessity for inquiry, inquiry will, of course, be made.

Casualties

asked the Under-Secretary for War if he will give the casualties, kill, wounded, and prisoners, of the Royal Flying Corps for the three months ending the 1st December and for the three months ending the 1st September?

I have assumed that the hon. Gentleman wishes this information for all theatres of war and for officers only. The numbers killed, including those who have died of wounds, etc., for the period ending 31st August, fourteen, and for that ending 30th November, eleven. The corresponding figures for wounded were twenty-two and twenty-one; for missing, none and ten; and for prisoners and interned, eighteen and twenty-six. I am not sure that the giving of casualties by arms is desirable, but I recognise that the Royal Flying Corps is in a special position in this connection.

Questions

Officers' Training Companies

asked the Under-Secretary for War how many regiments have officers' training companies in some one or other of their battalions; whether he has any figures to show how many commissions have been granted to soldiers trained in these special companies; and whether this regimental military education is believed to be at least as good as that provided in Officers' Training Corps?

I cannot give the number asked for in the first and second parts of my hon. Friend's question. Officers are now almost entirely drawn from the ranks. The education consists of six weeks in a school, and then several months in an officers' company, where the candidate would remain until he had passed his final test and was ready for drafting. This course of training is believed to be better than that provided in an Officers' Training Corps.

Major Winston Churchill

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if Major Winston Churchill has been promised the command of an Infantry brigade; if this officer has ever commanded a battalion of Infantry; and for how many weeks he has served at the front as an Infantry officer?

I have no knowledge myself, and have not been able to obtain any, of a promise of command of an Infantry brigade having been made to my right hon. and gallant Friend referred to in the question. On the second point I have consulted books of reference and other authentic sources of information, and the result of my investigations is that my right hon. and gallant Friend has never commanded a battalion of Infantry. No report has been made to the War Office of the movements of Major the Right Hon. Winston L. S. Churchill since he proceeded to France on the 19th November. If he has been serving as an Infantry officer between that date and today, the answer to the last part of the question would be about four weeks.

Will my right hon. Friend let me know if he is promised a command of an Infantry battalion?

HON. MEMBERS: Why not?

Is not the question absurd on the face of it, Major Winston Churchill being under sixty?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if this appointment were made it would be thought by very many persons both inside and outside this House a grave scandal?

Mediterranean Expeditionary Force

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War the name of the General Officer now in supreme Command of all the Forces operating in the Gallipoli Peninsula?

Sir Charles Monro is in command of the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force.

Is there any danger of the hon. Member who asks the question being appointed to any command?

Territorial Force (Kit Allowance)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in the interests of public economy, he will consider the advisability of placing Territorials serving in the Home Forces on the same footing in the matter of personal kit as Territorials and other units serving abroad; is he aware that the allowance of 2d. a day kit money amounts to something like £3 a year; and that, notwithstanding the fact that a company officer has the power to enforce proper expenditure of kit money, this is not always done, with the result that often the allowance is expended in other ways?

I am aware of the amount of this allowance, but have no information to show that the system is not working well from the point of view of either efficiency or economy.

Will the hon. Gentleman make inquiries to see if the statement in the question is not correct?

I will look further into the matter, but I have looked into it, and I am quite satisfied.

Anti-War Trade and Industrial Problems

asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered and, if so, whether he proposes to set up a committee, consisting of Members of this House possessing wide business knowledge and experience along with others of well-known capacity and authority directly and officially associated with the industrial classes, to consider and, if possible, make definite recommendation regarding trade and industrial problems which must arise at the close of the War?

I can only refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on Monday to my hon. Friends, the Members for North-East Bethnal Green and the Wellington Division of Shropshire.

Defence of London

asked the Prime Minister what authority or authorities are now responsible for the defence of London against Zeppelin attacks?

I must refer the hon. Member to the answers given yesterday to similar questions by my right hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty.

Near Eastern Campaign

asked the Prime Minister whether a statement will be made in the House on behalf of the Government before Christmas dealing with the condition of affairs in the Near East; and whether facilities will be given for a debate on the subject?

I am afraid that I can add nothing to the statement that I made on Tuesday in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Bethnal Green.

Body-Shield

asked the Undersecretary of State for War why the sample body-shield submitted to the War Office by Mr. W. Kenyon, of Oswaldtwistle, was returned to him on the 19th of July last without the same having been first thoroughly tested?

The body-shield in question was admittedly not bullet proof, and therefore did not fulfil the conditions prescribed by the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief as necessary.

Draft-Conducting Officers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many draft-conducting officers there are; what are their salaries; what are their duties; what number of drafts have been taken by each officer during the past six months; and whether their duties could be equally well performed by a regimental officer?

The number of draft-conducting officers is at the present time 107, and the salary they receive is £250 per annum. I am not revealing any secret when I say that their duties are to conduct drafts to the bases in France. When not so engaged they are required to assist the commanding officer of the battalion to which they are attached in any way the latter may desire. It would be impossible to answer the fourth part of the question without calling for elaborate returns such as are—if my hon. Friend will pardon me saying so—rather out of place in war time. As regards the last part of the question, the performance of these duties by regimental officers tends to hamper very seriously their train- ing and that of their units, and it was in order to avoid this disturbance and waste of time that draft-conducting officers were appointed.

War Office Transport (Detention of Railway Wagons)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office (1) the numbers of railway wagons containing goods for the War Office which are now and have been under load for one week and under, for two weeks and under, for four weeks and under, and for over four weeks, respectively; and (2) whether he is aware of the general shortage of railway wagons for the carriage of goods, and that this shortage is considerably increased by the number of wagons containing goods for the War Office which are kept under load for unduly long periods; and whether peremptory instructions will be given to have wagons unloaded promptly, in order to materially diminish the shortage of wagons referred to?

The question of unloading Government traffic has been closely watched since the beginning of the War, and the special difficulties anticipated during the winter are being dealt with by a Committee on which the Government Departments concerned are represented. Information regarding trucks under load is compiled from time to time in a form most suitable for the purposes of the Committee, but this does not enable me to give the detailed information asked for by my hon. Friend without adding largely to the labour of the Committee, which I do not feel justified in doing.

Army Discharges

Unfitness for Service

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware of the waste to the country in continuing to keep with the Colours men who are not of military value for physical reasons, and who are quite willing to be discharged and to return to their civil employment; and whether he will arrange for such men to obtain their discharge without any further delay?

The question of expediting the discharge of soldiers who have no further military value is receiving the close attention of the Army Council. The particular instances to which my hon. Friend has drawn my attention privately are being examined, and I will communicate with him again.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider also the eases of the men who may be of greater value in civil work than they are in the Army?

Is not Lord Derby most anxious that these men should be discharged and go into munitions and other works?

South Staffordshire Regiment

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the medical board is able to say that the disease of rheumatoid arthritis, on account of which Private T. Corcoran, late of the South Staffordshire Regiment, has been discharged from the Army as medically unfit and is now unable to work, after serving eight years and 287 days in the Regular Army and six years and 185 days in the Army Reserve, including active service in the South African War for which he received a medal with five bars, and also including active service in France in the present War, is not due to the effect of long spells of duty in wet weather and in wet clothing during the earlier period of the present War aggravated by gunshot wounds; and whether he has finally decided to give this ex-soldier nothing more than his ordinary pension of 8d. a day?

This man's case has been carefully considered by medical boards on three occasions. The first report was that the disability was not the result of active service, climate, or ordinary military service. With this report before them, the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital awarded Private Corcoran, in consideration of his length of service, a pension of 8d. a day for life, which is the highest rate to which he was entitled under the Pension Regulations. In consequence of an appeal made by my hon. Friend, the Commissioners of the Hospital again had Private Corcoran specially examined by a medical board as to whether there were any ill effects from the slight gunshot wounds which he sustained at Ypres in 1914. The board reported that there was no existing disability from this cause. The papers were then submitted to the Director-General, Army Medical Service, upon whose instructions another board was assembled. The final report of this board, which was signed by no less than five medical officers, stated that the multiple chronic arthritis was not the result of active service, climate, or ordinary military service, and that there were clearly other circumstances present that must be considered as within Private Corcoran's own control. The Director-General, Army Medical Service, reviewed the finding of this board and concurred in it. In these circumstances the Commissioners at the Royal Hospital have no power to award Private Corcoran any increase of his pension of 8d. a day.

Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the mother of Private Jennings, No. 1433, 1st battalion West Riding Regiment, who was called up on 4th August, 1914, has received no dependant's separation allowance for the period between early October, 1914, and 10th March, 1915, although Private Jennings obtained an application form from Captain Appleyard for the purpose of claiming the allowance in question in October, 1914, which he filled up; if he is also aware that Private Jennings subsequently asked repeatedly why the deductions were not being made from his pay as arranged, and that Mrs. Jennings wrote to York, presumably to the paymaster, about the matter but without effect; whether he has inquired as to what became of the form of application filled up by Private Jennings in October, 1914, as to why the reminders referred to were unheeded, and why it was necessary for a fresh application form to be filled up after nearly six months' delay; whether it has been decided that the mother of Private Jennings must lose the Government's separation allowance for dependants for the whole period between early October and the 10th of March through no fault of her own or on the part of her son; and if it has taken his Department from the 10th of July to the 7th of December to make inquiries into this case?

I am inquiring into this case, and will communicate with the hon. Member.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the extra 3s. 6d. separation allowance allowed to residents in the London area is not payable to persons who did not reside in such area prior to mobilisation; and if he can see his way to recommend that persons whose circumstances have obliged them to live in London since mobilisation become entitled to the extra allowance?

Yes, Sir, the question has been very fully considered, and I regret I can hold out no hope of a change.

Questions

Havre Training Camp (Sand Bags)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he has yet been able to make inquiries regarding the advertisement issued by the commanding officer of the central training camp at Havre asking for 100,000 sand bags; and whether he is yet in a position to make a statement on the subject?

I have not yet received all the information for which I have asked, but I will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as I do so.

War Office Farm Produce Purchases (Delayed Payments)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been called to the delay which takes place in the payment for hay and other agricultural produce purchased by the War Office; and what steps he can take to expedite payment so that the ordinary processes of agriculture may not be interfered with?

I am not aware that there is any general delay in the payment for hay, though cases have occasionally occurred, to some of which my hon. Friend has been kind enough to draw my attention. All of such cases have been rectified, but I must say that in some cases the vendors were not free from responsibility in the matter. If my hon. Friend has any other specific instance to bring to my notice, and will furnish the necessary particulars, I shall be pleased to make inquiries and have the payment expedited.

What steps are being taken to see that in future the payments are made more promptly and more regularly?

I am bringing very considerable pressure to bear upon those responsible for the delays which have occurred.

Regent's Park (Speed of Motor Lorries)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that heavy motor lorries are driven at a high rate of speed to and from the new post office in Regent's Park during the night, causing much disturbance and discomfort to the residents on the east side of that park; whether such lorries are at liberty to exceed the speed limit of 12 miles an hour and, if not, whether the park-keepers have authority to enforce the by-law; and whether the traffic of this sort going westwards could be diverted to the route by the Inner Circle, where it would disturb far fewer people?

I am aware of the facts stated in the first part of the question. I have requested the Post Office authorities to instruct drivers that the speed limit must not be exceeded. There are serious difficulties in diverting the west-bound traffic as suggested in the last part of the question, but I will see if they cannot be overcome. I am afraid that whatever is done there must be some discomfort for the residents on the east side of the park, but they will no doubt appreciate that the service is an essential war service.

Game Laws (Scotland)

asked the Lord Advocate, in view of the express provisions in Section 8 of the Game (Scotland) Act, 1772, and in Section 1 of the Game (Scotland) Act, 1832, that a person may be convicted of a breach of these Game Laws on the evidence of one witness, whether, in the event of the Game Laws being amended, he will consider the desirability of bringing these provisions into conformity with the general principle of the law of Scotland, which requires at least two witnesses for a conviction?

In the event of legislation being proposed to amend the Game Laws, the question referred to by my hon. and learned Friend will, so far as I can give an undertaking on the subject, be considered. I desire to add that I am not to be taken as assenting to the view that the law of Scotland requires at least two witnesses for a conviction.

asked the Lord Advocate, in view of the provision in the Game (Scotland) Act, 1772, that half of any penalty or forfeiture for any breach of that Act shall be paid to the prosecutor and the other half shall be applied to the use of the poor of the parish, or to the repairing of the high roads within the parish where the offence shall be committed, as the sheriff or steward-depute or substitute shall direct, if he will say to what authorities this second half of the fine is generally directed to be paid; and whether the penalties are shared in the manner described where public money has been expended on the prosecution?

As prosecutions under the Act referred to by my hon. and learned Friend are generally undertaken on behalf of either private parties or county authorities, I regret that I am unable to give the information sought in the first part of the question. With regard to the second part, the expense of such prosecutions is never borne in whole or in part by the Exchequer.

asked whether penalties and forfeitures for breaches of the Game (Scotland) Act, 1832, are still paid to the moderator or other officer of the Kirk Session of the parish where the offence was committed for the use and benefit of the poor of such parish, as provided by Section 7 of that Act, although the obligations in respect of the relief of the poor of the parish are now performed by parish councils; and whether, in the event of the Game Laws being amended, he will consider the desirability of having these penalties and forfeitures made over to the Treasury like other fines?

Prosecutions under the Statute referred to by my hon. and learned Friend are almost invariably private prosecutions, for which the Lord Advocate has no responsibility. According to my information, however, the answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. To the second part of the question, the answer is also, so far as I can give an undertaking, in the affirmative.

Great Central Railway (Employment of Girls)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is now in a position to state the results of his inquiry into the dispute with reference to the girls employed by the Great Central Railway Company?

From the inquiries which I have made it would appear that the dispute turns upon a question of fact—namely, whether since the War began there has been any alteration in the practice in the chief goods manager's office with regard to clerks not being allowed to belong to the Railway Clerks' Association. The statements of the parties on this point are conflicting, and I am prepared, subject to the agreement of both parties, to ask someone, preferably a barrister accustomed to weigh evidence, to inquire into the matter and report to me. To this course the company would agree on the understanding that cross-examination of the company's staffs is confined to a representative of the Railway Clerks' Association not in the company's service. The inquiry would, of course, be private, and no one giving evidence would be prejudiced thereby.

In consequence of the nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I propose to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Fertilisers

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether the Government have made large purchases of nitrate of soda; and if he can say if any part of this is to be made available for agricultural purposes?

Yes, Sir, a certain quantity was purchased in Chile, but the exceptional difficulties in respect of freight and the unfortunate closing of the Panama Canal render it uncertain to what extent it will be available for agricultural purposes at an early date.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state at what price it will be available for agricultural purposes?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he can now say if the Government are to be able to extend to farmers the privilege of getting a supply of sulphate of ammonia, at a fixed price, to be applied to the land in spring, similar to the arrangement which was made in regard to sulphate of ammonia applied to the land in November and December?

The question referred to by the hon. Baronet has been for some time under consideration by the Fertilisers Committee, and I hope shortly to be in a position to make an announcement on the subject. My hon. Friend will have noticed that the price arranged for sulphate for autumn dressings was a special price fixed with the object of inducing farmers, under suitable conditions of soil and climate, to apply this fertiliser in a manner which has not hitherto been usual; and I cannot promise that a price applicable to a special arrangement of this kind will be extended to the accustomed purchases later in the year. Much must depend on the general conditions of the market after the new year.

Will the parties to whom this privilege is being extended give any undertaking as to the maximum prices to be charged for their products?

Are we to understand that the Government is to furnish a certain class of agricultural necessaries for the farmers at less than market price, while farmers are allowed to charge higher prices for their products?

asked what steps the Government propose to take to conserve an adequate supply of basic slag in this country to help to increase the food production?

In June last the Government took steps to conserve supplies of basic slag by prohibiting its export to all destinations outside the Empire. A few licences have been granted to export slag of a lower grade than that used by British farmers or for the purpose of relieving the congestion of stores, but none have been granted since the beginning of November.

Foot-and-Mouth Disease (Ireland)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he has received a copy of resolutions passed by the South of Ireland Cattle Trade Association complaining of the mistake made by one of the Board's officials in wrongly diagnosing a supposed case of foot-and-mouth disease; whether a more experienced official has been placed in this position; and whether reasonable compensation will be allowed to those who suffered loss, inconvenience and delay by reason of this misadventure?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second and third in the negative. I have dealt fully with this matter in my reply to a question addressed to me on Monday last by the hon. Member for Cork. I have already sent the hon. Member a copy of that reply, and I venture to hope that he is now convinced of the unreasonable character of the resolutions to which he refers.

Am I to understand from that reply that steps have been taken to prevent a repetition of this mistake, which has been so costly to all those concerned?

Surely it is much better to stop trade in cattle when there is a suspected case of foot-and-mouth disease, and no one can give any guarantee that the trade will not be held up for a day or two if there is again as good a case for stopping it on suspicion as there was before.

Income Tax (Members of Trade Unions)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state, for the guidance of large numbers of workmen who will now for the first time be called upon to pay Income Tax, whether or not contributions paid by members of trade unions providing superannuation benefit will be deducted from the amount assessed for Income Tax?

So far as a contribution paid by a member of a trade union is definitely allocated to superannuation purposes, the amount so paid would be allowed as a deduction in computing the member's liability to Income Tax.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Midwives (Scotland) Bill, with Amendments.

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

Christmas Adjournment

I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether we are to understand that the Munitions Bill will be taken tomorrow; secondly, what is to be the business next week; and, thirdly, can he give the House any information as to the date and period of the Adjournment for Christmas?

As stated yesterday, we are asking the House to sit to-morrow to take the Committee stage of the Munitions of War Bill. We shall propose the suspension of the Five o'Clock Rule, not with a view of sitting late, but to enable progress being made. If the Munitions Bill is finished before five, we shall take the War Loans Bill.

On Monday, we shall take the Committee stage of the Parliament Bill, which I have every reason to hope will not take a very long time; and, if it does not, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Munitions, who is obliged to go away in pursuance of a public engagement in the North, will make his promised statement.

On Tuesday, we shall take the Vote for additional men for the Army.

On Wednesday, we hope to take Report and Third Reading of the Parliament Bill, and Report of the War Loans Bill.

On Thursday, I propose to move the Adjournment of the House until Tuesday, the 4th January.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any attempt was made to ascertain the convenience of Members in various parts of the House regarding the taking of the Munitions Bill to-morrow?

I do not know how that is exactly. I imagine the object is to save the House being confronted with the necessity of sitting on Friday in the following week, which would be more generally inconvenient.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether it is the intention to move the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule on Tuesday, when the Vote for men is taken?

Is it proposed to take the Trading with the Enemy Bill, in which a good number of Members are interested? I hope you will not.

When does the right hon. Gentleman propose to give the day promised for the consideration of the commercial policy of the Government—it was promised before the Adjournment in the summer?

It cannot be before Tuesday, the 4th January next.

Resolved, "That this House do meet Tomorrow."—[ Mr. Gulland. ]

Issue of Exchequer Bonds

I desire to announce to the House that we propose to make an issue of five-year 5 per cent. Exchequer Bonds, and the prospectuses will be published to-morrow morning.

Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill

I want to ask a ruling on a point of Order connected with certain Amendments which were made during the Committee stage on the Bill connected with the raising of rents. The Bill was brought in in this form:—

"Bill to restrict in connection with the present War the increase of the rent of small dwelling-houses in certain areas, and the increase of the rate of interest on and calling in of securities on such dwelling-houses."

In Committee an Amendment was made which extended the Bill to the whole country, and the title was changed so that it reads:—

"Bill to restrict in connection with the present War the increase of the rent of small dwelling-houses, and the increase of the rate of interest on and the calling in of securities on such dwelling-houses."

So that the Bill now to be reported upon this afternoon is not a Bill to deal with the increase of rent of small dwelling-houses in certain areas, but is a Bill to deal with the increase of rent of small houses over the whole of the country. In addition to that, an Amendment was proposed by the hon. Member for the Black-friars Division (Mr. Barnes) and accepted, which was to this effect:—

"No order for the recovery of the possession of a dwelling-house to which this Act applies or for the ejectment of the tenant there from shall be made except on the ground of the non-payment of rent or some other ground which may be deemed satisfactory by the Court."

The alterations in the Bill therefore have the effect of extending the Bill to the whole of the country, and they also prevent anybody owning any house which is included in the Bill recovering possession of that house except for the non-payment of rent or on some other ground which may be deemed satisfactory by the Court. I submit that this Bill is not the Bill which received the assent of the House on Second Beading. I would ask you to look back to the OFFICIAL REPORT of 23rd January, 1913, column 643. You will there find that the right hon. Gentleman the present Colonial Secretary asked your ruling in connection with the Franchise and Registration Bill and the Government Amendments to that Bill. The right hon. Gentleman submitted that those Amendments made such a material difference in the Bill that, in accordance with the practice of this House, a new Bill should be introduced and read a second time. In support of that view he called your attention to what happened in 1889. On that occasion Sir William Harcourt, who then lead the Opposition, pointed out that the Government had put down important Amendments to the Tithe Rent Bill, and Mr. Speaker Peel, in giving his ruling on the subject, said:— the Committee stage was over. You proceeded to say:— Franchise and Registration Bill, used these words:—

This matter lies within a very small compass. The point in each case is whether the Amendments made in Committee are of such a character as to substantially alter the character of the Bill, and in each case it rests, I presume, with me to consider whether or not that is so. If the Bill has been so substantially altered in Committee as to make it a new Bill, that Bill should be withdrawn and a new one introduced. Then I have to ask myself whether this Bill has been so substantially altered in Committee as practically to become a new Bill. Under this Bill, which, as the hon. Baronet says, was originally applied to certain areas—although I may say in passing the area was far from being certain, and was, in fact, quite uncertain— under this Bill as introduced it would have been theoretically possible, subject to the conditions mentioned in Clause 1, to apply the Bill by a series of Orders in Council to the whole country. The conditions were that, except in London and the great towns, there would have to be a general dearth of housing accommodation due to the influx of population, or other circumstances attributable to the War. Although it is not likely that the dearth of housing accommodation could be demonstrated universally throughout the whole country, there might be some dearth in some areas, if not in all. Even if the conditions as they stand in the Bill were such as to make it unlikely that the Bill would be applied by Order in Council, it is obvious that a slight alteration of conditions by an Amendment in Committee might have made it quite feasible to apply the Bill to every part of the United Kingdom by Order in Council. Therefore the change which was made by striking out Clause 1 was not very substantial. Under these circumstances I do not think I can say the Bill has now become a new Bill. The hon. Baronet seems to think there is a close resemblance between this Bill and the Franchise Bill of 1913, but I must remind him that the principle of the Franchise Bill of 1913 was not to enfranchise a large number of males, but, if anything, to restrict the number of males who would be entitled to appear upon the register of voters. It was, if anything, a restrictive Bill. Then it was proposed to make an Amendment which might put upon the register 11,000,000 females. If that Amendment had been accepted, I still hold the view, and I think the hon. Baronet will agree with it, that it would have been a new Bill; therefore I was right on the former occasion in saying that if that or a similar Amendment had been inserted it would become a new Bill, but on this occasion I do not think the changes which have been made are so material or substantial as to convert this Bill into a new one. With regard to the Amendment which has been inserted at the instance of the hon. Member for Blackfriars, I think that is really a consequential Amendment on that which had already been passed in Committee.

Government Way Obligations (No. 2) Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Extensions of the Government War Obligations Act, 1914, 5 and 6 Geo. 5, c. 11.)

(1) Section one of the Government War Obligations Act, 1914 (in this Act referred to as the principal Act), which relates to the provision of money for the fulfilment of Government war obligations incurred before the passing of that Act, shall be extended so as to include the provision in the like manner of money for the fulfilment of any Government war obligations incurred before the passing of this Act.

(2) Section three of the principal Act, which makes provision as to the validity of action taken in certain cases by associations or bodies of persons approved by the Board of Trade, shall apply to action taken for the purpose of carrying out any Government scheme in connection with the present War for the grant of compensation in respect of persons killed or injured on merchant ships as the result of hostilities, in like manner as it applies o action taken for the purpose of carrying out any such scheme for the relief of dependants of persons on insured ships.

(3) The Schedule to the principal Act, which sets out the Government war obligations, shall be extended so as to include obligations incurred in connection with the present War in respect of payments—

( a ) for the relief of dependants of persons on any merchant ship or fishing vessel;

( b ) for compensation in respect of persons killed or injured on any merchant ship or fishing vessel;

( c ) on contracts of insurance against war risks of the personal effects of masters, officers, seamen, and fishermen; and

( d ) in respect of aircraft and bombardment insurance contracts;

(so far as provision is not made for those payments by the application of premiums or otherwise) or in respect of—

( e ) any arrangements for restricting the supply of any commodities to the enemy;

( f ) any arrangements for the regulation of the foreign exchanges;

( g ) any scheme in connection with any such last-mentioned arrangements for enabling securities to be placed at the disposal of the Treasury (in this Act referred to as a Treasury securities deposit scheme); and

( h ) any exchange of obligations with any Powers allied with His Majesty in the present War,

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (1).

I have put this down in order to ascertain from the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether Sub-section (1) and Sub-section (2) go beyond the specific provisions in Subsection (3). It seems to me that they will not, and that they are, therefore, unnecessary. It is merely a matter of drafting.

No, I think the form as it stands in the Bill is right. Sub-section (1) follows generally the terms of Sub-section (1) of the previous Act.

Certainly Sub-section (2) does. Sub-section (2) amends the previous Act, but I think Sub-section (1) is very necessary.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (2).

I should like the right hon. Gentleman to explain how Sub-section (2) goes further than Sub-section (3).

It extends the provisions of Sub-section (3) to associations in whose case it was doubtful whether the memorandum and articles of association allowed of their being included under the scheme.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), paragraph ( g ), to leave out the words "in connection with any such last-mentioned arrangements."

I suggest that these words, being in connection with the foreign exchange, be left out, because the Chancellor's scheme does not apply merely to exchange arrangements. It also is a substantive loan raised for the purpose of paying indebtedness, and it might well be that such a payment might have to be made which was not in any sense connected with exchange rates. Again, I do not mind in the least if he likes to have the words in, but they seem to me to limit his power.

I recognise the force of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's argument, and if I was only dealing with the question from the point of view of this House and of interests on this side of the Atlantic, I should agree with him. But I think it is desirable, in view of certain feelings which have been developed on the other side, that we should limit it to transactions in connection with exchange operations.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, after the word "enabling" ["for enabling securities to be placed"], to insert the word "foreign."

As the Clause now goes, the right hon. Gentleman is authorised to apply money, etc., for the purpose of any scheme in connection with any such last-mentioned arrangements for enabling securities to be placed at the disposal of the Treasury. There is no limit to the class of securities which the scheme may apply to. In explaining it the other day, the right hon. Gentleman referred only to foreign securities. He did not suggest that he was going to ask that the scheme should be enlarged to include anything but foreign securities. What I have in my mind is to exclude Canadian securities, and if he cannot do so I want to give him an opportunity now of contradicting certain fears which have been expressed with regard to the effect of this scheme on Canadian securities. It has been suggested that including Canadian securities in this scheme, and then either selling them or using them as collateral in the United States, might have the effect of transferring the control of certain Canadian industries to the United States. I am perfectly sure it is not the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to do anything of the kind. It would be clearly a disaster if any large body of Canadian opinion should suppose for a moment that any scheme which was proposed had for its object, or even result, the transfer, for example, of the control of the Canadian Pacific Railway.

4.0 P.M.

Although, for reasons which I will give in a moment, I do not think it desirable to accept the Amendment, nevertheless I am very grateful to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for calling attention to the danger which he has expressed, and for giving me an opportunity of stating that every care will be exercised to prevent any occurrence of the kind he has named. We have, of course, had in view the possibility that by the free use of Canadian securities, either by sale or by use as security, we might have the effect of transferring the control of the Canadian railways into foreign hands. Of course, that is a result which we certainly desire to avoid and which we shall take every step to avoid. I do not think it would be proper to exclude Canadian securities, but I can give the Committee this assurance: that we shall exercise strict restraint in taking Canadian securities. Of course, the whole scheme is optional on both sides, both on the side of the Treasury and on the side of the public. We invite the public to come forward, but the Treasury must always remain the arbiter as to how much of any particular kind of stock should or should not be taken. I think public notice ought to be taken of the fact that in no circumstances should we be willing to take an amount of Canadian securities which would endanger the ownership of the railways. With this assurance I hope my hon. Friend will be satisfied.

I hope my right hon. Friend will think twice before he neglects the suggestion that has been made by the hon. Member for Colchester (Major Worthington Evans). I think he must remember that there is an immense amount of what we might call Canadian national sentiment gathered round enterprises in that country which would come into some danger unless the greatest possible prudence is exercised in connection with this particular scheme. I do not know whether my right hon. Friend has actually consulted the Canadian Government about this. The matter is very important, and I can assure him that even now, although there has been no great advertisement of the scheme, the feeling aroused is so exceedingly keen that unless he takes steps to consult the great Dominion of Canada in a matter like this he runs the risk of estranging a great mass of sentiment which we cannot afford to estrange. In the great election of 1911 a great deal of struggle centred round questions of this kind, and there is apprehension in certain important circles to-day that unless the strictest precautions are taken danger may be incurred by these great Canadian enterprises. A great undertaking like the Canadian Pacific Railway has spent the whole of its existence in trying to make itself essentially a British Imperial enterprise. It would be a blunder of the greatest magnitude to run any risk of allowing the control or even a large part of the control of that great undertaking to get into American hands. I do earnestly trust that the right hon. Gentleman will consider this matter very carefully. I am not hostile to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer is introducing in this Bill, but I do most earnestly hope that before he comes to a final determination on this important question he will definitely and deliberately consult the Dominion Government.

I shall be glad to give the hon. Gentleman the assurance for which he asks. Before we take any Canadian securities we will consult representatives of the Canadian Government here.

We shall consult Sir George Perley. We have been alive to this danger, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that in any event we should have been most careful to avoid running any risk.

I am rather sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not give us an opportunity of supporting the Motion of the hon. Member for Colchester before he made his reply, because I think he would have been able to make a more satisfactory reply if he had heard all the arguments put forward in favour of the Amendment. It seems to me that having, in the preceding Sub-section, stated that he would keep in the word and that his purpose is to regulate the foreign exchanges, it needs more explanation than he has given as to why it is necessary possibly to utilise Canadian securities in regulating the American exchange. I would point out that he is treading on very delicate ground. It has been one of the principal things that this country has been able to do to promote the growth and prosperity of Canada to provide capital for these great undertakings. Now that Canada is co-operating with us in the prosecution of this War, it seems to me a very doubtful policy to even take power to take great blocks of capital which have been subscribed for Canadian undertakings, and to take that capital for the purpose of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this Bill. We should—and I believe I am speaking for the hon. Member for Colchester—have preferred to make the scope of this Bill very much more definite and to give to the Chancellor of the Exchequer greater power to deal with American and other suitable foreign securities. In giving him that additional power, which I should like to see him have, it is certainly not desirable that he should have the control we should like to give him over foreign securities over these Canadian securities also, or over the securities of other Dominions.

Canadian securities are the things with which we are mainly concerned now, and I think we would be well-advised to leave out Canadian securities altogether and take much more drastic powers in regard to getting complete control, by purchase, of all American securities, which would give him ample power to regulate the American exchange. I heartily endorse the appeal made by the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins). The right hon. Gentleman has promised to consult the Canadian Government, but I would like him to consult the Canadian Government with his own mind almost made up that he will borrow on securities that are really appropriate to his purpose, and not try to effect that purpose by dealing with securities which can only be rendered available to bring a sort of pressure to bear on the main point he has got to deal with, and which I think are really inappropriate to be used in that connection. He is using this finance to prosecute the War, and I do not think it ought to be done at the expense of running the risk either in transferring control of or injuring the credit or the supply of capital for any undertaking in any part of the British Empire. Let the right hon. Gentleman confine himself to dealing with foreign exchanges and dealing with those exchanges with foreign securities, taking the most drastic powers that he likes, and the more drastic the better, both in the utilisation of that power and also m collecting into the hands of the Government a sufficient mass of these foreign securities to effect his purpose.

There is a good deal of danger to be feared unless the greatest possible care is taken. The only safe way for my right hon. Friend to pursue is to take the advice of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hewins) not only to consult the Canadian Government—that does not seem to carry the matter far enough—but to make quite sure that he is carrying the Canadian Government with him and has their absolute consent. If he can get that consent, of course, we shall all be perfectly satisfied. I suggest that if he does not get that consent he had better adopt the word suggested by the hon. Member for Colchester and confine his efforts to foreign securities. Do not on any account go on with this proposal with any possibility of misunderstanding with the Government of Canada. If he means by the term consult that he is going to obtain their consent, then I heartily support him, but if he means to consult only and then to use his own opinion, whether he agrees with the Canadian Government or not, then I beg him not to do that.

As I called attention to this danger on the Second Reading of the Bill, I would like to supplement what has been said. It seems to me quite clearly that there is some danger in the right hon. Gentleman taking power to deal with these Canadian securities, even though he has no immediate intention of doing so. No one will know which securities the right hon. Gentleman has actually chosen, and I am afraid that the mere fact that he takes power in this Bill to take Canadian securities may create the feeling of alarm to which hon. Members have referred. Would it not be possible now to deal only with foreign securities, and if necessary at a later date—there are sure to be other opportunities—take power to deal with Canadian and other securities when the time arrives? There is another danger which I would like to point out. The right hon. Gentleman may feel that although it would not be desirable to buy for the purpose of reselling these Canadian securities, he might be tempted to borrow them for the purpose of using them as collateral. That would be likely to alarm our Canadian fellow subjects, because it is quite obvious that if the occurrence which is anticipated, of a possible forced sale, as set forth in Sub-clause 4, takes place, the forced sale of the Canadian stock mentioned, or any other Canadian securities which might occur in New York, would bring about the very undesirable condition of things which we anticipate. Therefore, I cannot help thinking that the right hon. Gentleman would be best advised to leave Canadian and other Colonial securities alone for the moment and deal only with foreign securities, leaving the other to be dealt with at a later date if necessary.

I think the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman is satisfactory, provided he follows the advice of my hon. Friend (Sir E. Cornwall), and that "consult" does not mean merely asking the Canadian Government or a Canadian Minister their opinion and then acting according to his own opinion whether he agrees with them or not, but that it means saying to them, "What do you think? Will you state what you wish to be done? Whatever you wish done, I will do it." If he is prepared to do that, I think we might let the matter go. I think he ought to go as far as that, and if he will further undertake that if the Canadian Government say they do not want their securities included, he will make an announcement to that effect, we shall again get everything we want.

I should have thought that the interpretation which my hon. Friend has put upon "consulting the Canadian Government" is the only possible interpretation that it could have in a matter affecting Canada. Where we are dealing with a matter directly affecting Canada we should not think of dealing with Canadian securities against the wish of the Canadian Government. I do not think it is desirable to say anything more upon the matter. Between this Government and the Canadian Government the relations are naturally closed. At the same time, I think neither the Canadian Government nor ourselves wish altogether to exclude Canadian securities. We have got to remember that possibly for the first time in our history Canada has now a balance of trade in her favour, and so far from borrowing money, Canada is in the position of a lending country. We have got to consider what are the kind of securities that the lender on the other side of the Atlantic is likely to desire, whether they are American or Canadian securities or any kind of securities. I need hardly say that in managing the whole business we shall take the greatest precautions to see that we are acting throughout in conformity with the wishes and with the policy of the Canadian Government, and I hope in conformity with the wishes of the United States Government. I will not put it in the case of the United States that it is a Government matter, but we shall be most anxious in dealing with their securities not to do anything that will prejudice their market or injure their financial interests. We shall take the utmost care, in exercising our powers under this scheme, to see that we have due regard to international interests as well as to Imperial interests.

While we all agree that it is undesirable to do anything that would be objectionable to our Canadian friends, and while we certainly do not desire to do anything to put their undertakings under American control, two things must be remembered. The first is that we have payments to make to Canada, and very considerable payments, and if it should be convenient to make these payments by means of Canadian securities I do not think we ought to bar the Chancellor of the Exchequer from using those securities for that purpose. You should, therefore, not bar that out of this Bill. The second point is that there are a certain number of securities the buying of which by America would give no control whatever, which would be very useful. There are a large number of Canadian municipal securities held by the large financial corporations in the United States and there is no reason why, if those who hold them in this country are willing to sell them to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, they should not be used in the United States. I think, therefore, it is a matter in which, after the assurance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we should trust to him. He will, as a matter of course, do nothing our Canadian friends will not like, and we can rest perfectly assured that he will consult them. I do not think it would be wise that we should bar these securities out altogether.

I did not suggest that we should bar any securities out altogether, for the reason the right hon. Gentleman has just stated. What the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not quite seem to understand is that it is a question of sentiment. I do not attach very much importance to the real effect of this, because it is only in the case of shares that have voting powers that will have any effect at all, and it would be in his power not to accept them. It is a question of sentiment, and I put the point in the hope of improving that sentiment. If he could have said that he would only act in accordance with the wishes of the Canadian Government, I should have thought, and I still think, that everything would have been satisfactorily arranged; and though I do not doubt for a moment that he would do so, I wanted to make it quite clear, so that people reading the newspapers would see what the actual intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was—a point which I do not think is quite clear to everybody outside this House.

I am quite satisfied with the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and with the permission of the Committee I will withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I do not know whether it would be most convenient for me to make a few observations with regard to the borrowing of securities, and the 2½ per cent. which is to be added, now or on Clause 2. I thought, perhaps, that as we had been discussing securities, and it would come in under Sub-clause ( g ), it might be convenient now.

What I want to say to the right hon. Gentleman is that he proposes to borrow certain securities, and, amongst other things, to provide that he shall have the option of purchase by paying 2½ per cent. more than the middle price of the day. He gave as a reason that it will be necessary for him to have that power, because if the people with whom he deposits these securities as collaterals did not renew the loan, and apparently the Government were not in a position to repay it, they might then sell the securities, and the right hon. Gentleman might be put in a rather difficult position. I myself think that the success of the borrowing scheme will largely depend on whether this particular provision is or is not in the scheme. There are a large number of people who think, undoubtedly, that supposing there should be bad times in America, and oppression in the stock market, that possibly the very moment that this option would be declared would be the moment when securities were depressed, and that they might be obliged to sell their securities at a very low price. They therefore hesitate in giving their securities over to the right hon. Gentleman from the very fear that they may be called upon to sell them at a very unpropitious moment. I myself think there is something in that although the 2½ per cent. does meet it to a certain extent, inasmuch as they would be able to rebuy their securities at a lesser price. That, however, depends entirely on whether there is a free market in the securities. If the securities were shares where there is a free market that result would obtain, but if they were bonds where the market is not very free it might be that the bonds were sold in America at a low price, and supposing I had deposited them I might go into the City and send an order into the Stock Exchange to repurchase the bonds and I might find that the jobbers would say, "The price is so-and-so, but we have no bonds"—that frequently occurs —"we will buy them of you, but we cannot sell." The consequence is that I am not able to replace my bonds, the financial crisis might terminate, the price might go up 10, 15, or 20 per cent., and I should be without my security.

I do not think there is any necessity for this proposal from the right hon. Gentleman's point of view. It may cost the taxpayer a considerable amount of money, the giving of 2½ per cent. above the price, and if it were left out I do not think it would affect him in any way, and I will tell him why. In the pledging of the securities with him he could arrange his scheme—I need not go into technical details because they would be so technical that the majority of the Committee would not understand them—so that he was not obliged to give back the identical bonds or shares, as long as he gave the depositors back shares of the same company. That would be sufficient; so that, if a contingency arose in which the borrowers could not sell them, all he would have to do would be to replace them himself in the market. It is a little difficult to go into this question in Committee, but if the right hon. Gentleman would like, I should be perfectly prepared, if he would allow me, to show that what I say is absolutely correct, and, indeed, if he would ask the Governor of the Bank of England, or anyone conversant with business in the City, they would bear out what I am saying. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will consider whether it would be possible—I do not know whether it would be possible after the Bill becomes an Act—in his scheme to leave out the option altogether. I think it would have a very great effect, and would encourage the borrowing part of his scheme. I do not know whether he has seen that in the money article of the "Times" it has been stated, certainly on two occasions, that the general feeling in the City is that borrowing is the proper thing to do. I myself was in the City the day before yesterday, and saw one or two of the leading members of the Stock Exchange who endorsed the view that the proper thing to do was to borrow, and not to purchase. I should like to know whether, if I could convince the right hon. Gentleman the 2½ per cent. option was a mistake, it would be possible to alter that part of the scheme after this Bill has become an Act.

I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not alter the scheme in this respect. The hon. Baronet wants the right hon. Gentleman to take notice of the money articles in the "Times." I commend him also to read the "Morning Post," which has taken the exactly opposite view of that advocated by the hon. Baronet. While no doubt he has received the information he mentioned in the City, I can say I have received information in the exactly opposite direction from bankers and from the Stock Exchange. The hon. Baronet did not seem to me to support his own proposition, because he said it was going to cost the taxpayer a good deal of money if you took the right to sell securities lent to you and paid 2½ per cent. to the depositor.

If it might, then that proves that the sale is at some time going to take place, because if it never takes place the 2½ per cent. will never be paid, and if it does take place, it will cost the 2½ per cent. in those cases. It is just to secure the Government being short of stock that the option is necessary, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he listened to the hon. Baronet, would not only be making the taxpayer lose 2½ per cent. but it would be short of stock, and would not be able to recover it under a very much larger sum than 2½ per cent. That is not the only reason why I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not listen to this part of the hon. Baronet's speech. I personally think the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be wise to get into his own absolute unfettered possession as many of the American securities as he can, not on Loan, but by purchase—of course, up to a reasonable amount. I do not mean him to speculate in them. Let him make a forecast of what he wants, and get them by purchase and not by loan. He should not hold them for an indefinite time, but sell them as opportunity arises—not all at once; and in the meantime using them as collaterals. This is the plain, simple scheme which, in my opinion, would in the long run pay the country better than the borrowing scheme of the hon. Baronet.

I am not clear that I understood the hon. Baronet's suggestion: Whether he meant that the Government must replace, or must have the option to replace, by giving to the lender practically the same denomination of securities; whether he meant option and not compulsion?

My point was this: If the Government borrows my securities for two years, they would have to return them at the end of the two years. But so long as they returned my Canadian Pacific shares—I take those as an instance—it would not matter whether or not they were the particular Canadian Pacific shares I handed over at the time.

That means that they must return the shares, and that they must buy if they have sold. That seems to me a dangerous procedure, and an undesirable position in which to place the Government. If they are bound to replace in that way, then they have to find an additional amount of money. Supposing these securities which have been borrowed have been pledged with American bankers, and some reason arises why the Government wish to sell these securities, and pay off the American bankers? Then they will use the money they have secured for the stock or bonds to pay off the bankers, and will then have to find new money to pay the lender at the end of the time. They are losing one of the advantages of the transaction. They may be in a difficult position as to buying because it may be that they may have to buy at a higher price. I agree that these difficulties are very considerable indeed, and that there is a great difficulty in borrowing these shares. That is inherent in borrowing them, and that is what makes me think that borrowing is not the most satisfactory of the two alternatives. If you could borrow them from the holders here, and use them as a collateral in America and make sure that you could return them, that would be a good scheme; but it is essential that you should have power to sell the shares. It seems to me clear that the American banker will not lend upon them, unless he has power in the end to sell. Therefore, there must be a power with the borrowing to sell.

That, of course, is essential, where you pledge the securities. The person who lends the money has power to sell only in the event of the interest not being paid, or the loan not being paid off. Either of these eventualities I cannot contemplate in the case of the English Government—that they will not pay the interest, or will not pay the loan off.

There may be a difference about the rate of interest, or a difficulty of that kind. It is clear that there must be the power to sell. Out of that power to sell arises the difficulty what you are to do with the lender when you have sold his securities. Surely, the simplest plan is to hand him over the money you have got for them, and it is there that the 2½ per cent. comes in as a recompense for the trouble and difficulty in which he is placed through the sale of his securities against his will. The 2½ per cent. gives him room to turn round, and that is the reason for it. If the Government were compelled to go and buy again the market might be rigged against them, and they would indeed find themselves in considerable difficulty. The whole of this transaction is surrounded with difficulty. I was reading the financial papers from New York yesterday, and I find that already they are talking about minimum prices. They do not seem to care for having their securities slumped down, and they are talking about fixing minimum prices for these securities. If that were done the Government might again find themselves in difficulty. The hon. Baronet opposite says that the lender, if his securities were sold, might find it difficult to rebuy the bonds. Obviously, that is conceivable, but he is not bound to buy American bonds. He has got his money, and, if he knows of any investment from which he would get a similar return, and which would be as good security, he would be willing to buy—say, Colonial or Home securities. Take the case of the trust companies. They hold a considerable number of American securities. They are holders of American ordinary railway shares—common stock—at the present time. British ordinary railway shares are yielding a return higher than the American shares, and it might be quite worth the while of trust companies to buy London and North-Western, North-Eastern, and other railway shares of that stamp, which yield 6 per cent., and a little over. Therefore, I think the best plan is to hand the lender of the stock his money, with 2½ per cent. margin, and I feel assured that the Government in meeting the matter in that way will remove more difficulties than could be effected by any other plan put before them.

Before following up the speech by the hon. Baronet (Sir T. Whittaker), I would like to say a word about the option which the lender apparently is to have to ask the Treasury to sell the securities which he has lent. Supposing the owner of the securities desires the Treasury to sell them for him, what delay is likely to occur before his request is carried out? Obviously, if, owing to a change of price, and if there is an increased price given for these securities, and someone who has been hitherto lending securities to the Treasury desires to sell and calls upon the Treasury to carry out the sale, it will be a matter of time, and if the proceedings take a week or a fortnight the lender's opportunity is gone. Will there be machinery at the Treasury to deal promptly with these things?

I did not get an answer to that point when I put it previously. As regards the power to sell, the Treasury is to have the offer of those securities which are borrowed. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir T. Whittaker) that the whole matter is a difficult one, but the difficulties must be faced if the scheme is to be a success at all. I also agree that it is absolutely essential that the Government should have the power to sell; otherwise, the borrowing is of no use at all. A further point is whether the Government, having sold securities below a certain price, they should pay the higher price of those securities to the lender, but I think that is an unworkable ground if one looks into it. Let us see how we can face those difficulties and get over them. The Government propose that, in the event of their selling under pressure, the lender will have the opportunity to buy back the securities, but, under the scheme that has been issued, the Government will sell those securities in New York, under conditions which will of course be extremely unfavourable—that is to say, the sale will take place at very low prices. Obviously that should be presupposed. But the lender of the securities is to be paid in sterling in this country. If he is to buy back his securities, or a similar class of securities, I think we may assume he would not buy them in this country but buy them back in New York. The question is whether, under the doubtful condition in which we are supposed to be, it will be possible to remit the money between New York and here. I have been inquiring about this matter, and I am told that it would be quite possible for the exchange to be too unfavourable for the person who has lent the securities to get his money remitted to New York and buy them back again, assuming them to be sold in New York and not over in this country. That is the information I have received this morning, and it is second-hand to that extent.

One other point seems to me of considerable importance. I am assured by people who have looked into this matter that they think the right hon. Gentleman is under some misapprehension as to the selling price or as to the middle price in New York. I am informed that the system of the New York Exchange—and I have a copy here of the New York Stock Exchange list—is that the prices quoted are what are called "bid" and "ask." It has been pointed out to me that it is a very common thing to find only one of the two prices quoted at all, and that you find for several days in succession a particular security shows the price "bid," but no price at all to be "asked." Similarly you often find so much is "asked" and quoted regularly, but there is no "bid" at all in the list. Consequently in such cases there is no middle price. I have also been assured of the fact, as in the particular list I have here, that where there is a "bid" price and an "asked" price they are frequently extremely far apart, as much as twenty points apart, and therefore the middle price would have to be very wide in the quotation. It seems to me that these are difficulties which it is desirable to face, and if the scheme is to be a success, they must be overcome.

Another point is that obviously a great number of people are in a position to lend who are not in a position, possibly, to sell. They are disturbed and frightened by these difficulties, and if they are to be induced to lend their securities, it is extremely desirable that we should clear away these difficulties. For my part, I hold that sales would be preferable, and I notice that it is now suggested that these shares should be paid for not only with five-year bonds but also with cash at the option of the lender. That, probably, will cause the plan to be more acceptable. But I do hope that if the Government are going in for buying large quantities of American securities they will not become too large holders of such speculative securities. The fact does remain that there are large classes of securities, probably second-class securities, which the holders now anticipate will improve, and become first class, or worth more than said that they are the class of securities which the holders do not desire at all, but they are very willing to lend second-class bonds or low-priced shares. It must be said that they are the class of securities that the Government probably do not desire to take at this moment. Nevertheless, it is desirable in forming this scheme, to face the fact that you may have to buy second class and other class securities, or borrow them, and therefore this scheme, as far as possible, should be applicable to those comparatively low-priced securities. I think that you will have to modify the arrangement of paying an all-round ½ per cent. It is quite obvious if a share formerly valued at 100 is now worth only 50, and paying very low dividends, ½ per cent. is a very large addition; whereas, in the case of securities which are worth nearly 200, the extra ½ per cent. is very small, and some modification will have to be made; you might have a sliding scale in proportion to the value of the securities. A further question is put: Why is it that only those securities of which there is physical possession in this country are named? Of course, large quantities of these shares are abroad, but in the circular which I have received it is suggested that it applies only to those securities which are possessed in this country.

May I just point out that the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir T. Whittaker) has rather misunderstood the position which will ensue if the Government borrows securities and uses them as security for loans in America. The object of all this is to right the rate of exchange, and to make the rate of exchange go back to its normal position. If the right hon. Gentleman borrows a certain number of securities, and borrows money on them in New York for, say, six months, he would, of course, pay a fixed rate of interest to the bankers, and at the end of the six months the rate of exchange would have risen. If, on the expiration of the loan at six months the collaterals are to be sold, how does the right hon. Gentleman know what the price of the collaterals may be at that time? There may be a large loss, or they may have fallen in those six months. It is quite against the principle of loans to sell your collaterals, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman he is quite mistaken on this particular point. The only other point is about middle prices. There are no middle prices, except on the London Stock Exchange, because there are no jobbers except in London, and unless there are jobbers there are no middle prices. There are no middle prices in the provincial Stock Exchanges.

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask him one further question? He has had the opportunity of negotiating with the trust companies and insurance brokers and has secured, I believe, from them a very large block of these securities. But, after all, he has got to look a good deal to the individual owner of securities. They are accustomed to take the advice of their stockbrokers, and I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that it would be only wise and in his interest that he should so arrange matters that the brokers who brought in securities for exchange into 5 per cent. Exchequer Bonds should in some way get remunerated for their services.

I am very much indebted to hon. Gentlemen for the very interesting and valuable Debate which we have just had. Still I am under the impression that the real scope and meaning of Rule 4 is a little misunderstood. I hope, and I go even further and I say I think, that Rule 4 will never be brought into active operation. Rule 4 is the rule which empowers the Treasury to sell security which has been borrowed, and I do not think that in practice that would be brought into actual operation. I would like the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Ban-bury) to consider an individual transaction from beginning to end. Probably it would not be the Treasury who would borrow at all. We will assume that an English bank borrows money from an American bank and gives some of these securities as collateral. The loan is made for a period, say, of three months, Before the expiration of the three months the question arises whether or not the loan should be renewed. If the American bank knows that should the loan not be renewed that money must be found because the collateral could not be realised, then I think that the American bank would be in a better position for negotiating with the English bank than the American bank would be if the English bank was free to sell. Now that is the position. For that reason we think that the English borrowing bank which borrows in America must have unfettered control of the securities. We do not want them sold and we stipulate that they shall only be sold if necessity arises—that is to say, if this hard necessity should arise. But in practice what will be done will be this: 80 long as I, at any rate, had any responability for the working of this scheme I should always take very good care that I had always money in hand to meet any loan as it fell due, and then the lender, knowing that I had a perfectly free hand, would be much more likely to renew the loan than if I was not in that position. The whole difficulty is a mere debating difficulty. It will not prove a difficulty in practice. I really think that those who criticise, when they think it over, will realise that while for this ultimate reason you must have a condition like this in your scheme, yet in practice you will never have to make use of it.

I agree with everything that has been said by all those Gentlemen who have spoken that, as we have put in the forefront of our scheme, the most desirable course for us is to purchase, and especially to purchase by payment in Exchequer Bonds. We have, as the hon. Gentleman opposite said, also given the option of cash. We think, on the whole, that it is better to purchase, particularly if we can purchase for Exchequer Bonds for five years at 5 per cent. The hon. and gallant Member for Colchester (Major Worthington Evans) put a question as to the payment of brokerage to the broker through whom the transaction may be carried through. If a broker carries through a transaction of sale for Exchequer Bonds, then we shall pay him the ordinary brokerage of an eighth, as if the Exchequer Bonds were placed for cash, and the broker will get his commission where the transaction is carried through in that form. If it is carried through otherwise I think the client will have to pay the commission. My hon. Friend opposite (Mr. James Mason) raised the question as to the price, and pointed out a difficulty as to middle prices. We agree with him, but I think he will find that the scheme when it is published makes no reference to middle price. While conversationally one speaks of a middle price even in the American market, it is not, as the hon. Baronet the Member for the City pointed out, a true middle price, such as we have here, and, consequently, one has to accept the current price, not the middle price. There, again, as that difficulty would only arise on a forced sale, although I will not say forced, I hope that the difficulty will never materialise in practice.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman say that the middle price would be taken in the case of those securities?

We have given a variety of options under the scheme. We propose that the depositor of the security may sell, subject to any limit as to price which may be specified in the notification for sale, and that the proceeds of the sale will be paid over to him in sterling in the exchange of the day on which such proceeds are received in New York. Or he may ask for and receive the release of the securities in New York for sale by himself, or against the payment of the proceeds in dollars to the Treasury agent in New York. Alternatively the Treasury will consider proposals during the currency of the scheme for purchase. I think my hon. Friend may rest assured on this matter. I suggest that there will be, and there must be, a large business undertaking on the other side of the Atlantic continuously dealing with these transactions and engaged in buying and selling. There will be no more delay than would take place if the depositor desired to sell by his own broker in the City of London and if the inquiry was then telegraphed over to New York privately. I should think, on the whole, that the transaction would probably be carried through more quickly through the Treasury agent than it could be done privately. Certainly it is quite obvious that where notice is given of sale, the sale must take place instantly, and the depositor must not be left to run any risk of loss on account of delay in time. We hope that the scheme will prove in all its branches satisfactory for the purposes which we have in view. We must take great care that we do not take up at any one time more securities than we need, and, to use a Stock Exchange expression, the Government ought not to be a gigantic "bull" of American securities. Undoubtedly the power to take securities will have to be closed down from time to time, particularly as the difficulty of handling them, as I am sure hon. Gentlemen will realise, would be extremely great. But we shall endeavour to cope with the difficulties, and I can assure the Committee we shall take very good care that throughout we shall act with due caution.

I do not think the Chancellor has answered the last point raised by the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. J. Mason). There is a very large number of shares held by English firms—shares which are located on the other side and have never been transferred to this side. I do not know whether the Income Tax Commissioners are aware of the names of the holders of those shares. I assume the right hon. Gentleman wants to draw into his net as much of those shares as it is possible to get. I do not think that the method suggested by the hon. Member for Colchester (Major Worthington Evans) is going to secure anything like all, or even a large part, of the shares which are held as I have described by English firms and individuals on the other side. I know myself of one individual who has invested for many years in debenture stock, gold bonds, general utility shares, and has always bought them through United States brokers. The English brokers would not know anything about those. I do not know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Income Tax Commissioners are now getting acquainted with the owners of those shares kept on the other side. Has the right hon. Gentleman any method of bringing to the notice of outside holders who are not bankers or insurance companies or trust companies, but who may be merchants or private holders, the provisions which he proposes to make?

By advertisement.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 2.—(Provision with Respect to Deposit of Securities with the Treasury.)

(1) Securities may be deposited with the Treasury or given to the Treasury in exchange for Government securities, for the purpose of, and in accordance with the conditions of, any Treasury securities deposit scheme, notwithstanding that those securities are subject to any trust, and notwithstanding any provisions of the trust, whether arising by deed, Act of Parliament, or otherwise; and any per- sons holding any such securities are hereby expressly authorised so to deposit the securities or give them in exchange in accordance with any such scheme, and shall not be liable for any loss arising therefrom, and in the case of a company, or body of persons, are so authorised notwithstanding anything in their constitution.

(2) Any deposit receipts or documents of a like nature given in respect of securities so deposited, and any Government securities taken in exchange for securities exchanged, shall be held by the persons depositing the securities or giving them in exchange subject to the same trusts as the securities deposited or given in exchange, as the case may be.

(3) Any person having power to invest in, hold, advance money on, or deal with securities represented by any such deposit receipt may invest in, hold, advance money on, and deal with the deposit receipts in the same manner as the securities which the receipts represent, and any person taking Government securities in exchange in pursuance of this Section may hold and deal with those securities as if they were the securities given in exchange.

I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words,

"Where the Treasury so direct as respects any class of transaction for the purpose of any Treasury securities deposit scheme or any special transaction for the purpose of any such scheme, Stamp Duty shall not be payable in respect of that class of transaction or transaction; and a deposit with the Treasury, or sale to the Treasury, or exchange with the Treasury, for the purpose of any such scheme of a security transferable by delivery shall not, for the purpose of the Stamp Act, 1891, and the Acts amending the same, be deemed to be a negotiation of the security."

This Amendment is to carry out an undertaking with regard to Stamp Duty.

May I ask is this to be retrospective? The Treasury is credited with having bought for cash a certain number of securities in the last few weeks. In some cases Stamp Duty has been paid, and in other cases Stamp Duty has not been paid. Will the Stamp Duty be returned to those who have sold to the Treasury?

5.0 P.M.

If my hon. Friend will look at the wording of the Amendment he will see that it refers only to transactions under any Treasury securities deposit scheme. "Treasury Securities deposit scheme" is now a term of art, and it includes all this class of Bills already passed.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move after the words last inserted to add,

"(4) None of the provisions of the House of Commons (Disqualification) Act, 1782, or the House of Commons (Disqualification) Act, 1801, shall be construed so as to extend to any deposit of securities with the Treasury or any exchange of securities with or sale of securities to the Treasury for the purpose of and in accordance with the conditions of any Treasury Securities deposit scheme."

One quite appreciates the object of this Amendment. The House of Commons (Disqualification) Acts are very rightly stringent in requiring that any Member of this House who enters into a contract with a Government Department shall vacate his seat. The object of this Amendment is to prevent those Acts from applying to any case where a Member of this House sells securities to or deposits securities with the Treasury under this scheme. But that is not the only form of contract that may be entered into under this Bill. There are also various other contracts that may be made, such as contracts of marine insurance with a Government Department, contracts of insurance against aircraft risks, and so on. I should like to be certain that a Member of this House can enter into such contracts as these without coming within the range of the House of Commons (Disqualification) Acts. I do not know whether it is clear under any Statute. Perhaps my right hon. Friend can give us some information on the subject. If necessary, perhaps, he will consider an extension of this Clause.

I have taken legal advice on the matter, and I am assured that the only removal of disqualification necessary is as regards these securities. If my hon. Friend, to whose vigilance this Amendment is due, wishes me to take further legal advice on the points he has raised, I will do so with pleasure. As regards the insurance scheme, no question has yet arisen, and I shall be surprised to learn that no Member of Parliament has yet taken advantage of it.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3 (Provision with Respect to Compensation for Persons Injured on Merchant Ships or Fishing Vessels) and CLAUSE 4 (Short Title) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered to-morrow (Friday).

Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Bill

As amended, considered.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Rules as to Procedure.)

The Lord Chancellor may make such rules and give such directions as he thinks fit for the purpose of giving effect to this Act, and may by those rules or directions provide for any proceedings for the purposes of this Act being conducted so far as desirable in private and for the remission of any fees.—[ Mr. Long. ]

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move "That the Clause be read a second time." This Clause follows the procedure adopted in the Courts Emergency Act, and provides that rules and regulations may be made. It is really a formality.

Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.

The Clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick's Division of Dublin (Mr. Field) ( Application to Ireland ) is beyond the scope of the Bill.

CLAUSE 1.—(Restriction on Raising Rent or Rate of Mortgage Interest.)

(1) Where the rent of a dwelling-house to which this Act applies, or the rate of interest on a mortgage to which this Act applies, has been since the commencement of the present war, or is hereafter during the continuance of this Act, increased above the standard rent or the standard rate of interest as hereinafter defined, the amount by which the rent or interest payable exceeds the amount which would have been payable had the increase not been made shall, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary, be irrecoverable:

Provided that—

(i.) This Sub-section shall not apply to any rent or mortgage interest which accrued due before the twenty-fifth day of November, nineteen hundred and fifteen; and

(ii.) Where the landlord has since the commencement of the present war incurred, or during the continuance of this Act incurs, expenditure on the improvement or structural alteration of a dwelling-house (not including expenditure on decoration or repairs), an increase of rent not exceeding six per cent. per annum on the amount so expended shall not be deemed to be an increase for the purposes of this Act; and

(iii) Any transfer to a tenant of any burden or liability previously borne by the landlord shall for the purposes of this Act be treated as an alteration of rent, and where as the result of such a transfer the terms on which a dwelling-house is held are on the whole less favourable to the tenant than the previous terms the rent shall be deemed to be increased whether or not the sum periodically payable by way of rent is increased, and any increase of rent in respect of any transfer to a landlord of any burden or liability previously borne by the tenant where, as the result of such transfer, the terms on which a dwelling-house is held are on the whole more favourable to the tenant than the previous terms shall be deemed not to be an increase of rent for the purposes of this Act, and if any question arises as to the amount of such increase the question shall be determined by the County Court, whose decision shall be final and conclusive; and

(iv.) Where the landlord pays the rates chargeable on, or which but for the enactments relating to compounding would be chargeable on, the occupier of any dwelling-house an increase of the rent of the dwelling-house shall not be deemed to be an increase for the purposes of this Act if the amount of the increase does not exceed any increase in the amount payable by the landlord in respect of such rates; and

(v.) This Sub-section shall not apply where notices demanding either repayment of the mortgage or an increased rate of interest have been given prior to the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen.

(2) A person shall not in consideration of the grant, renewal, or continuance of a tenancy of any dwelling-house to which this Act applies require the payment of any fine, premium, or other like sum in addition to the rent, and where any such payment has been made in respect of any such dwelling-house after the twenty-fifth day of November, nineteen hundred and fifteen, then the amount shall be recoverable by the tenant by whom it was made from the landlord and may without prejudice to any other method of recovery be deducted from any rent payable by him to the landlord.

(3) No order for the recovery of possession of a dwelling-house to which this Act applies or for the ejectment of a tenant therefrom shall be made except on the ground of non-payment of rent or on some other ground which may be deemed satisfactory by the Court.

(4) It shall not be lawful for any mortgagee under a mortgage to which this Act applies, during the continuance of this Act, and so long as interest at the standard rate is paid and is not more than twenty-one days in arrear, and the covenants by the mortgagor (other than the covenant for the repayment of the principal money secured) are observed, to call in his mortgage or to exercise any right of foreclosure, sale, or other means of enforcing his security, or to take any steps for the recovery of the principal money secured:

Provided that this provision shall not apply to a mortgage where the principal money secured thereby is repayable by means of periodical instalments extending over a term of not less than ten years from the creation of the mortgage, nor shall this provision affect any power of sale exerciseable by a mortgagee who was at the twenty-fifth day of November, nineteen hundred and fifteen, a mortgagee in possession, or in cases where the mortgagor consents to the exercise by the mortgagee of the powers conferred by the mortgage.

Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (ii.), after the word "rent" ["an increase of rent"], insert the words "at a rate."

In paragraph (iii.) leave out the words "as to the amount of such increase," and insert instead thereof the words "under this proviso."

In paragraph (iv.), after the word "amount" ["in the amount payable"], insert the words "for the time being."

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph (iv.), after the word "rates" ["in respect of such rates"], to insert the words "and the increased amount payable in respect of such rates shall be separately stated."

My object is to ensure that the occupier shall be clearly informed that the extra rent charged is merely due to the increase in the rates. If the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment there is no need to dwell further on the subject.

Can the right hon. Gentleman make a general statement showing what the precise position of the landlord will be in regard to rates under this Bill, having regard to the changes which have been made and are about to be made?

The position is this: the owners of these houses are not allowed under this Bill to increase their rents. We go further, and make such increases irrecoverable in a Court of Law. But it was thought right in Committee to allow an increase of rent where there is an actual increase in the amount of rates payable by the owner in respect of the occupation. This Amendment will have the effect of imposing upon the landlord the duty of intimating to the tenant what is the amount of the increased rent in respect of rates. That is to say, if there should happen to be a case where the owner proposed to increase the rent in a proportion bearing no relation to the actual increase of rates, before he could do it he would have to give a statement to the tenant showing how much of the increased amount was due to extra rates. These are the only changes made.

Is it clear that all additions to rates made since the War commenced may be put on the rent by the landlord?

Yes. Where the rates are raised and the landlord, has to pay an extra sum in rates in respect of the house, the Committee decided that that sum and no more should be recoverable from the tenant, because it is in respect of services rendered to the tenant and not to the landlord.

Will it cover the case where there has been a differentiation of rates, as at Bristol, where certain districts were taken into the boundary of the city some time ago, and by arrangement between the city corporation and the outside areas there was differential rating? I am told that lately that differential rating has ceased, with the result that in some places there will be an increased rate, although the corporation has not actually made an increase in the general rate. In such a case will the increase due to the abolition of the differential rating be recoverable by the landlord?

I should not like to commit myself to a legal opinion, but I think it would. My hon. Friend has in mind a case where, by an arrangement between the corporation and the outside areas a system has been devised allowing the outside areas to pay on a lower basis. It is quite true that no new service is rendered when the differentiation ceases, but the tenant comes into the enjoyment of the full benefit of the corporation system of drainage, lighting, etc. All that is suggested is that he should pay for the extra benefit which he gets from the services rendered by the corporation.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, after the words last inserted, to add the words "and for the purposes of this proviso the expression 'rates' includes water rates and charges."

This Amendment effects a change in accordance with a promise which I made during the Committee stage. Some doubt was expressed as to whether these particular charges would be included under the definition of rates. I promised that if I found there was any doubt on the point I would have it cleared up on Report. I find that there is a doubt; therefore, in fulfilment of my promise, I move this Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

The Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board takes precedence of that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) to leave out paragraph (v.).

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph (v.), to leave out the words, "This Sub-section shall not apply where notices," and to insert instead thereof the words, "Where the rate of mortgage interest has been increased in compliance with or in consequence of a notice in writing."

In my Amendment I am desirous of omitting paragraph (v.) altogether. I hope I may be allowed, on the Amendment before the House, to argue in favour of the omission altogether of the paragraph. This paragraph, which was not in the original Bill, was put in on the proposal of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. I think at that time the Amendment was represented as being one of a very innocent character. I have no doubt the hon. Baronet thought it was so, but in its present shape it is anything but innocent, because it operates in this way: If by any chance notice has been given by a mortgagee that he wishes to raise the rate of interest, if he gave that notice before the War this Sub-section is not to apply at all. Not only will that prevent the limitation of the rate of interest on the mortgage under this Bill, but it will prevent any limitation of the rents of property taking place under the provisions of the Bill. I am perfectly certain my hon. Friend did not foresee that that would be the operation of this Amendment. The Government now have put down notice of Amendments which will remedy that further ulterior effect, as I have pointed out, of the Amendment. When the right hon. Gentleman's Amendments are carried, the fact that a man has given notice before the War that he wishes to raise the rate of interest on the mortgage will not prevent the Act operating so as to restrict and prevent any increase in the rent. Notwithstanding that, I wish to represent to the right hon. Gentleman it would be very much better to omit the Clause altogether, because there is, to my mind, really no reason why a person who has given notice before the War should have, under the provisions of this Act, any advantage over the man who had not given notice before the War. The whole idea of this Bill is that during the War any increase either in the rents or in the rates of interest should be postponed until after the War. It is really to prevent people getting their rights owing to the War and for a certain limited time during the period of the War. The Bill, as origin- ally drafted, was much more correct and just in this respect. It is a proposal, of course, that no one would think of advocating under any other circumstances than that of the War. Inasmuch, however, as we have resolved to interfere with the freedom of individuals during the war, I submit that it is very much better to adhere to the original idea of the Bill, and say, whatever may have been the notices given before, that no increase taking place after 4th August should be allowed to come into operation until the end of the War. That was the simple position before us when the Bill was brought up by the Government. It was altered, as I have pointed out, by the insertion of paragraph (v.). I can only content myself by suggesting to the right hon. Gentleman that he really has been a bit too kind to the hon. Baronet opposite in even assenting to one-half of his Amendment. It would be very much better if, on reconsideration, he would restore the Sub-Section to its original form, and then everybody would be treated alike.

My right hon. Friend has admitted that my Amendment deals in effect with one of the points he wishes to raise, and therefore that it covers the ground which it covered by his proposed Amendment. I do not feel very strongly about this. It is not likely to apply to a very large number of cases. But I demur to the statement made by my right hon. Friend in regard to the original situation. In everything I have said on the various stages of this Bill I have made it clear to the House that our object has been to deal with the operations that have taken place since the outbreak of the War, and during the War. If we are going to cover wider ground, I do not think it would be fair; certainly it will be inconsistent with the arguments I have used on behalf of the Government. It is quite true that as the Bill was originally drawn, it admitted of the interpretation placed upon it, and the Amendment of my hon. Friend, the Member for the City, was accepted because it carried out what we had intended originally in drafting the Bill. This Bill as it now stands is fair. I would again remind the House that it is an emergency measure, and is a compromise. The House has been extremely kind to the Government in the way in which they have accepted its views, and have most loyally adhered to them; and I hope we shall be allowed to carry the Bill to its final stages. I think on the whole we have arrived at a measure which is not only beneficial—of this I am sure by the correspondence I have received—but that it is on the whole a fair compromise upon questions which are of considerable difficulty.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Sub-Section (1) paragraph (v.) leave out the words "have been' ["rate of interest have been given"].

At end of paragraph (v.) insert the words "such increase shall not be deemed to be an increase for the purposes of this Act."—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move at the end of paragraph (v.) to add,

"(vi.) Wherever an increase of rent is by this Act permitted no such increase shall be due or recoverable until the expiry of four clear weeks after the landlord has served upon the tenant a notice in writing of his intention to increase the rent."

The tenant ought to have time to consider whether the claim of an increase is justified. I shall be glad to know that the right hon. Gentleman accepts the Amendment.

I think it is a fair position that where an increase is put forward notice should be given. This Clause covers the cases, and bears upon the question raised just now by my hon. Friend below the Gangway (Mr. Rendall). I think there should be sufficient time during which the tenant should satisfy himself that the claim is a just one.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert the words, "but this provision shall not apply to any payment under an agreement entered into before the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen."

This is a consequential Amendment to what we discussed a while ago.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), to leave out the words "except on the ground of non-payment of rent," and to insert instead thereof the words "so long as the tenant continues to pay rent at the agreed rate as modified by this Act and performs the other conditions of the tenancy, except on the ground that the tenant has committed waste or has been guilty of conduct which is a nuisance or an annoyance to adjoining or neighbouring occupiers, or that the premises are reasonably required by the landlord for the occupation of himself or some other person in his employ."

I should like to ask the President of the Board of Trade what precisely is the meaning of part of this Amendment and how far it carries—I refer to the question of where a person has been guilty of conduct which is a nuisance or an annoyance to adjoining or neighbouring occupiers. That suggests very large and very wide powers, and the question comes in who is to decide, and whether the case is or is not a proper one. I have in my mind a case which has occurred just recently in Thorpe and East Ardsley district, Yorkshire, where the rent of ninety-eight houses has been put up, and where ejectment orders have been issued during the last week or two against four men. The ejectment orders were largely applied for because these men arranged a deputation to the landlord to object to the increase of rent. These men are under orders now to leave their houses because of their action. Would a case like that be considered to come under this Amendment? I do not know whether I may be permitted on this point to raise another question as to whether this Clause, as proposed to be amended, would have any restrictive effect at all in the case to which I have referred? The ejectment orders are supposed to mature next Tuesday. I am quite sure that there will be trouble then in the neighbourhood where this matter has arisen. I think this is one of those cases which the Bill is absolutely designed to prevent; but the whole object of the Bill, as I conceive it, will not be effected if the ejectment orders are allowed to come into operation against the four men. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give protection to these four men. I hope in the Bill that this point will be noticed.

I wish to ask the President of the Local Government Board a question as to the last part of this Amendment which says, "or that the premises are reasonably required by the landlord for the occupation of himself or some other person in his employ." I am glad that I have to appeal to a right hon. Gentleman who has so complete a knowledge of agricultural conditions. There are two ways in which rural cottages are let. In one case they are let to the farmer as part of the equipment of his farm, and are by the farmer sub-let, or let direct, to the agricultural labourer. That is not, in my opinion, a good way of managing an agricultural estate. The other way is that the landowner owns the cottages, and practically lets them to the agricultural labourer—a method which secures the agricultural labourer rather more freedom from compulsion than he is allowed by the other system. The Amendment as moved provides for the case of the letting which is not good for agriculture, because it does not provide the case which is good for the agricultural labourer, because the cottage may be required for the purpose of carrying on the farming industry, but it is not required by the landlord for the occupation of himself or some other person in his employ. The other person is in the employment not of the landlord, but of his tenant, and if the right hon. Gentleman would add the words "or in that of his tenant," it would meet my case, and would apply to a very large number of agricultural cottages—something like 40 per cent. of the whole number. A cottage may be absolutely essential for the working of the farm, but, as this Clause is now drawn, there is no means of recovering possession in the case of a stockman, or cattleman, or herdsman.

The Amendment which stands in the name of the right hon. Gentleman seems to me to have exceedingly far-reaching effects, and I think if he reconsiders it he will find that it opens a loophole to a very great change in the Bill. I suppose the words "in his employ" have been put down to meet possibly the question where cottages are required, or supposed to be required, for agricultural purposes. I take it that is the object with which those words are introduced; but it has a much more far-reaching effect than that. I know cases where ejectment was obtained, not because the cottages were required for agricultural purposes but because the landlords wanted to get possession of them, saying they wished to put their own employés in them, and the only cases where they failed to get existing tenants out were those cases where they were employed on munition work. I am afraid in the munition areas this will give rise to a great amount of feeling, and, I believe, will be able to be used detrimentally to the occupants of the cottages., I think the words put in to meet the case of agricultural cottages want some qualification. Even with regard to agricultural cottages, there arises the point as to the wife of the soldier who is away at the front. Is she to be turned out of her cottage? The only justification for taking the cottage in agricultural areas is where it is required for those who must live on a farm where there is stock, and where there are horses, and, I think, as it now stands, it would enable all these women to be turned out of their cottages simply because it was said that the landlord requires possession for himself. I think it is very much more far-reaching than the right hon. Gentleman thinks, and I do wish he could give us some assurance that some qualification could be put in to meet the purpose for which he has had the Clause drafted, namely, to meet cases where cottages are absolutely necessary for agricultural purposes, and also to prevent the people in cottages in munition areas from being turned out.

I also wish the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider his decision. The Section accepted when in Committee was a very simple one. It was very much more simple for purposes of emergency than one such as this. The Section as accepted in Committee simply says that a person is not to be turned out except on the grounds of non-payment of rent, or on some other ground which may be deemed satisfactory by the Court—that is to say, the whole question is left to the discretion of the Court. It may work very harshly, or it may work very beneficially, but, in the circumstances of emergency legislation, I feel convinced it is far better to leave the whole question to the Court to decide than to attempt to tie it down by proposals such as are now submitted. Take, for instance, the proposal that the tenant may be turned out if he is guilty of conduct which is a nuisance or an annoyance to adjoining or neighbouring occupiers. The Court may say they have no discretion there. If occupiers can make out a reasonable case of nuisance, there is no discretion at all. We know very well what actuates the feelings of neighbours very often, and I do seriously ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it would not be better, under these circumstances, to leave altogether the consideration of the case, not only in its legal aspects, but also in its ordinary social and moral aspects, to the Court, rather than attempt to define certain actions which take it out of the cognisance of that Court? I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is open to conviction on this point, but I feel certain a great many hardships will accrue of which we shall hear a great deal more if the Clause is amended as suggested; whereas, if the matter is left to the discretion of the local Courts, I am sure they will do their utmost to do justice.

I should like to support the appeal of the right hon. and learned Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) with reference to this Amendment. The object of this Clause, I take it, is to give a reasonable fixity of tenure to the tenant within the scope of the Act, and this Clause introduces a considerable number of qualifications to that right of continuous occupation. He may be turned out under this Section if he has committed waste—which is a legal phrase he will not understand in the least—or has been guilty of conduct which is a nuisance or an annoyance. The hon. Member for the University of Oxford suggested that, in addition to the reason that the landlord wants the premises himself, or for some person in his employ, there should be added the further possibility of the tenant being turned out if the person whom the landlord wants to put in is his tenant, although not in his employ. I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the total effect of these qualifications is very seriously to impair the fixity of tenure which it was the wish of the Committee should be conferred on the tenant. Moreover, I should like to draw his serious attention to the word "annoyance" in this Clause. If the tenant does anything which is an annoyance to adjoining or neighbouring occupiers he may be turned out, but, before we understand what that means, we want to know who are the adjoining or neighbouring occupiers, because annoyance is very differently regarded by different persons. Some of us would be gravely annoyed by some things which to other Members might be considered an addition to the gaiety of the premises. Moreover, while the word "nuisance" has a legal interpretation, and is well understood by Courts of Law, the word "annoyance" has no legal definition whatever, and I would submit that the words "or an annoyance" ought to be omitted. Those words are sometimes introduced into leases in London, and they are the subject of constant litigation and innumerable complicated decisions, in accordance with the decisions of the judges, or the attitude of witnesses who come before them. While I think the whole Amendment very largely decreases the fixity of tenure, which it is our desire that all tenants should possess under the terms of this Bill, the introduction of the words "or an annoyance" is one which very seriously increases the scope of the qualifications, and I have heard no good reason for its insertion here.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman, whatever his decision may be with regard to the suggestion which the hon. Member for Oxford University has made, will stand to his guns, at all events with regard to the first part of his Amendment. It is impossible to manage property of any kind, even if you let it on lease, without covenants of this kind. There is hardly a lease in existence, no matter what the rent is, or the extent of the holding, without these words appearing in some fairly definite form. I do not want to depreciate the character of the tenants for whom we are legislating' at the present moment, but we are certainly giving them very large benefits under this Bill, and it would be impossible to manage property of this kind unless you had some protection. I do hope, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will not listen to the blandishments of some hon. Members and give way in this direction.

I think we ought not to waste too much time over this. What we want to do is to get this Bill through in a reasonable fashion, and as soon as possible. Hon. Members have spoken in regard to the word "annoyance." That is a word which is very difficult to construe, and dictionaries have many different phrases in regard to it. I doubt if any Member on the Front Bench could give the exact definition of the word "annoyance," more particularly when it gets in the hands of the lawyers, who construe the meaning of words in such an extraordinary fashion. If this Amendment simply leads to capricious eviction, that is really what this Bill is to end. It is only a temporary measure, and I do think, with all respect to the Committee, we ought to try to pass this Bill with the least possible friction. As it is not meant as a permanent measure, and there is only a slight difference of opinion between us, and knowing how precious the time of this House is, I think we are wasting time over certain portions of this Bill. I would respectfully suggest, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman, who has been so conciliatory in his manner—and I take this opportunity of complimenting him on the manner in which he has piloted this Bill—should give us an explanation of how the matter stands in his own mind, so that we might be able to pass on to the next provision of the Bill.

I rise for the purpose of supporting the proposed Amendment. I heard two speeches from two lawyers in the House, one representing St. Pancras and the other the adjoining borough of Islington, both pleading for the Clause to remain as it left the Committee. But I cannot help thinking that, while they deprecate law, they have their tongues in their cheeks, because if there is anything likely to create law it is to leave this Clause in the vague way it stands at present. Could anything be more unsatisfactory, or leave the County Court judge in greater doubt as to what was intended, than the vague words now in the Clause? The Amendment proposes to focus what the reason shall be and gives the County Court judge some idea as to what is in the mind of Parliament as to the kind of behaviour on the part of the tenant that are well-known legal terms. In my view therefore, I think the proposed Amendment is one of enormous importance. I know there is often a diversity of opinion as to what meaning is to be attached to particular words, but I have yet to learn that there is any hon. Member connected with the Chancery Bar, where these questions arise on applications for injunctions and leases and against tenants who are breaking their covenants, who will tell the House that there is any substantial difficulty in being able to construe the meaning of the word "annoyance." One knows the great injury that may be done to the peace of adjoining tenants by eccentricities and capriciousness on the part of some tenants. The hon. Member for Islington called it liveliness and gaiety, but Islington is a dreary place for the most part, and no doubt its gaiety is enhanced by this kind of thing. I ask the House to consider that this is a reasonable contribution to our emergency legislation, and I hope a provision of this kind will be put into the Bill.

I welcome this Amendment, because I think it is an admirable one. With regard to the points which have been raised, I confess I think the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) has no reason to fear, in my view, that the case he gave would come within the words "nuisance or annoyance," because I am satisfied that it would not. I think the hon. Member has raised an important point, which I do not think arises particularly on this Clause, with regard to the right a man should have to protection from ejectment proceedings. That is a point which ought to be considered. With regard to what has been said about the word "waste," I think any tenant would know what that means. As to the words "nuisance and annoyance," they are well-known legal terms. In my view there is no real difficulty in understanding them either from the point of view of a lawyer or anybody else, and the only possible difficulty would be in their application. May I point out the position in regard to the question raised in this Amendment? In the first place, before you can go to Court you have to give notice to the tenant. When that notice has ripened by the expiring of the necessary period, then it is open to the landlord to proceed if he thinks fit, and he has to prove his case. That casts an obligation upon him, and he has to satisfy the Court that there is a nuisance and not a mere casual act, but something that renders life unreasonable in regard to your neighbour. Clearly that is easy of proof, and there is no real difficulty about it. The same applies to a cottage which is necessarily required for the working of some industry like agriculture. There, again, the landlord would have no case unless he proved in fact that his tenant had given him notice. A man might give the employer notice, and yet say to him, "You cannot get me out and I shall remain, although I am going to work for a third party." All those are cases which are properly dealt with in the Bill. I hope the President of the Local Government Board will adhere to this Amendment, because I think it is one which will work reasonably and well. I know that, in regard to ninety-nine out of every hundred landlords in this country, if there is one thing hateful to them it is to eject a tenant.

I wish to draw attention to a point affecting Scotland, to which I hope the Lord Advocate will direct his attention. The word "waste" is well known in the law of England, but so far as my recollection goes, it is unknown to the law of Scotland. Under these circumstances it is obvious that the Court in Scotland would have some difficulty in determining what the word "waste" is meant to cover, and I do not think it is intended that expert evidence should be required in regard to this term in the English law. Undoubtedly, this word will cause some difficulty in the administration of the law in Scotland. I do not think there could be anything more vague than the words "or annoyance." We have in Scotland many tenement properties where there are six, seven, or eight using the same common stairs. What is an annoyance to one might be a pleasure and amusement to the other, and in point of fact frequently that is so. One hears of cases of adjoining tenancies where one has a piano, and the other may have an American organ or gramophone to which one of the tenants may very much object. That might be held to be a nuisance. I have heard of a case where a tenant was so much annoyed by his neighbour's piano that he installed an electric horn in his house which was played when the piano was used. I think a simple concrete case ought to convince the President of the Local Government Board of the difficulties in which he is placing the County Court judge by having to interpret the words "or annoyance," and I hope if he adheres to his Amendment that he will at least remove those words, which will be difficult to interpret.

This Amendment has given some of us a great deal of concern. I think if this proposal made by the President stopped at the word "tenancy" the whole case would be met. I have in my mind at the present time the case of tenants who complain to their landlords about the insanitary condition of their property, and yet for weeks and months they get nothing done, and then suddenly the sanitary inspector calls at the house and finds that something needs to be done. Consequently, he serves upon the landlord a notice that the property in that particular area has got to be done up. When the notice comes, the landlord comes down and immediately blames the tenant for having given his case away, and by some means or other he generally does his best to get rid of that tenant. I think that kind of thing ought to be put a stop to, and so long as the tenant keeps up his tenancy and does not in any way damage the landlord's property, so long as he pays his weekly rent and looks after the property as well as he possibly can, that tenant should not be considered eligible to be put out into the street. I have a case in point which occurred on the south side of London, where, because a number of tenants would not pay an increase in their rents, they received twenty-one days' notice from the Court to get out of their houses. It seems to me that people will not be allowed to do anything or say anything to the landlord because, under whatever pretence he likes, he may come down and-tell the tenants that they have got to get out, and if they will not get out he goes down to the Court, pitches his tale to the ear of the County Court judge—and I know sufficiently well enough that the landlord is always well looked after in the County Court—and he need not fear as to which way the case will go. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I have no doubt about that in my own mind, because I have seen too many of these cases, and I am speaking now from practical experience.

No, I was never evicted, but they have had a try for it and it did not come off. If the word "tenancy" was left in it would satisfy all parties, and it would prevent any landlord from taking advantage of a tenant who had possibly taken part in some agitation or had said something which had come to the ear of the landlord.

I think it is about time that an ordinary layman said a word or two in this Debate, because so far it has been conducted by a chorus of Members of a very distinguished profession who have each expressed totally contrary views. One hon. Member said these words are terms of art which are easily understood and interpreted, while others have assured us that they are full of difficulty. All I can say is that I have had the advantage of the advice and assistance of my hon. and learned Friend, and I am sure that the words "nuisance and annoyance" are very well understood indeed. The word "annoyance" was introduced because it was thought under the original word "nuisance" it would be exceedingly difficult to prove a legal nuisance. The hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Field) has given us a definition of the word "annoyance." I can assure him that it is my desire that we should terminate these Debates in a reasonable time, and I am prepared to take advantage of his invitation. I confess, however, that I have heard the word "annoyance" used more than once in regard to this House. Sometimes it has been caused by speeches to which I have had to listen which I do not think added very materially to the Debate in which we were engaged. That is annoyance, but I do not think we should turn out an hon. Member because one of his neighbours heard him practising his speech. It is a deplorable fact that some owners have taken advantage of the situation to deal with their tenants with a singular want of consideration and common justice, and the case described by the hon. Member for Stockport is one of them. He told us of a tenant who had been evicted from his premises because he had taken part in a rail-way agitation. I am afraid it is impossible to provide in this Bill against the completion of ejectment orders which have been obtained before this Bill passes, but the Government are so much impressed by the injustice of a case like that that before the Bill reaches another place my right hon. Friend has promised that he will consider the point very carefully and see whether it is possible to add words to prevent the occurrence of a grave act of injustice like that. I do not know that it is possible for us to do it, and therefore I must not be understood as making any definite promise, but we will consider it and see whether it is possible to add words for this purpose.

6.0 P.M.

The Amendment, as a whole, has been objected to on the ground that it is too great a limitation. Really, the object of the Amendment was to make the conditions in the Bill clear, and to give some guidance to the Court. My hon. Friend who has just spoken (Mr. Yeo) has some strong feelings about County Courts. He does not regard the County Court judge with, that veneration and respect which I have always felt for him; but surely I am in the recollection of the House when I say that my hon. Friend answered his own speech, He told us that these County Court judges were always on the side of the landlord, who had only got to go to them and he might be perfectly certain that they would take his side of the case; but, when challenged by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Field) he told us that they had tried it on him and he had defeated them. If he has been able to defeat, not only a nefarious landlord but also an unjust judge, surely we may assume that the conditions are not so bad as he would have us believe, that others may be as successful as he has been, and that County Court judges do not deserve the charge that he made against them. I believe that my hon. Friend takes a very prejudiced view, when he makes this statement about County Court judges. I believe that they act with great fairness, and do their work wholly admirably, and very difficult and hard work it is. I should not like a statement like that to pass without challenge on my part, based on what knowledge I have gained during a long course of years of the way in which these gentlemen perform their difficult and laborious duties.

We do not desire to leave the language as vague as it is in the original Bill. We want to make it clear that there are only certain grounds upon which a motion for ejectment can be made. It is still open to the Court to consider all the circumstances of the case. I am not a lawyer, and it would be presumptuous of me to say what view a judge would take, but I cannot think that a judge, when dealing with cases arising under this Act, will be wholly oblivious of the intention of Parliament. He will know that it is a temporary Act, passed to deal with difficulties arising out of the War. He will know—it is obvious on the face of every word of the Act—that the intention of Parliament is to prevent unfair and unjust evictions. Under these circumstances, I cannot but think, although there may be some doubt as to the word "annoyance," that the Clause as it will be amended will be far better than it stood before, and I hope the House will accept the Amendment. My hon. Friend the Member for Oxford University (Mr. Prothero), asked a question about the possible application of this Clause to cottages occupied by workmen of tenant farmers. My right hon. Friend the Solicitor-General has quite satisfied himself that these words will meet the case where it is absolutely essential to recover possession of a house for the use of a servant necessary for farm work.

In these circumstances I hope the Government will not be asked to amend the Amendment, either in one direction or the other, but that it will be allowed to stand as it is. The only Amendment I would at all like to contemplate is the omission of the word "annoyance," and that is not prudent, because I am assured that to establish a nuisance is a very difficult proceeding indeed. On the whole hon. Members who have criticised the Amendment, will realise that there is a great deal in this which is in the interests of the tenants themselves. We have heard of gramophones and other causes of amusement, for some people, which are annoyances to others, and surely these are circumstances which ought to be met. Take the case of a man who is habitually intemperate in his habits, and who makes himself a perfect nuisance to his neighbours by being constantly drunk. It may be difficult to prove that he is a nuisance, but he is clearly an annoyance, and it is in the interests of the tenants that it should be possible to deal with cases of that kind. There are other annoyances. One speaker asked me, "What do you mean by an annoyance to the neighbours?" Surely that is a case any competent tribunal will be able to settle for itself on the evidence. Let me remind the House that the words are very clear and distinct. They impose upon the judge the duty of satisfying himself that there is this nuisance or annoyance, and it is only in those circumstances that ejectment orders will be obtainable. It is a strong order to lay it down here that no owner shall recover possession of his property, even although he may want it for some legitimate purpose, for some purpose perhaps which he may have had in his mind when he acquired it, and for Parliament to say, "These are war times, and, being war times, we are going to give special protection." If we take away his powers, surely we ought to add certain limitations, and say in particular cases, clearly defined, and after consideration by the Court, that it shall be possible for him to recover possession. I hope that the House will accept the Amendment which has been most carefully considered by my right hon. Friend the Solicitor-General. It has been drawn solely in order to secure that there shall be no evictions in cases such as those indicated, and that there shall only be a reasonable power of ejectment, subject to the control of the Court. In these circumstances, I hope that the House will be good enough to add these words to the Bill.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

I beg to move, in the proposed Amendment, after the word "occupiers,' to insert the words "or using the premises for illegal or improper purposes."

I am very much tempted to follow the right hon. Gentleman on the word "annoyance," but I will yield to his appeal and to his desire to get on, especially in view of the promise which he has given us. I rather anticipate that my right hon. Friend or the Solicitor-General may answer my claim to insert these words by reminding me that there are powers given to the Court to deal with cases such as these by the words "on some other ground which may be deemed satisfactory to the Court." While I should appreciate the cogency of that reply if it were made, I would venture to suggest that it is not conclusive. My right hon. Friend in his speech justified these limitation words which he desired to insert on the ground that it was desirable to make the conditions clear and to give the Court some guide. If you are going to give the Court some guide, surely it is desirable that you should also guide the Court by adding these words. If you deliberately elect to leave out these words, surely it rather suggests that there is no power of the landlord to eject a tenant on these grounds. My right hon. Friend said that he wanted to make it clear that there were only certain grounds on which a motion for ejectment could be made. I cannot think of a more proper ground for ejectment than the tenant using the house for improper or illegal purposes. I could understand it if no such words as the right hon. Gentleman has suggested were added. But, if he is going to add anything, I do beg him to give the landlord power to move for an ejectment in the circumstances suggested by my Amendment.

I quite appreciate the reason given by my hon. and learned Friend for his Amendment, but we are rather reluctant to have more words than are necessary. My hon. and learned Friend put the case of a tenant using the premises for illegal or improper purposes. If that tenant is a nuisance or an annoyance to his neighbours he is already provided for by the words of the Amendment, and if not he would probably come within the general words in the Bill, which enable the Court to sanction the eviction "on any other grounds which are deemed satisfactory by the Court." I cannot conceive that if a case were made out of the immoral use of premises, and the landlord gave the proper notice for an order for ejectment, that the Court would not say it was enough to satisfy it. You might give a dozen other cases. I do not think we could hope to classify them all, and I suggest that we have gone far enough in putting in these words to indicate the kind of case they ought to meet. It is not necessary to put in words to cover all cases.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I would like to ask my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate what expression he intends to insert with reference to Scotland as equivalent to the words "committed waste"?

I think my hon. Friend was well-founded when he said that the phrase "committed waste" was unknown to the Scottish law. I have taken advice, and I am assured that a proper definition of the words "committed waste" would be "wilfully destroyed the property of the landlord," and I propose to insert that definition in Clause 3, which is the definition Clause applying the Bill to Scotland.

Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.

Further Amendments made: In Subsection (3), at the end, insert the words "making such order."

In Sub-section (4), after the word "are" ["are observed"], insert the words "performed and."

After the word "observed" insert the words "and so long as the mortgagor keeps the property in a proper state of repair and pays all interest and instalments of principal recoverable under any prior encumbrance."

Leave out the words "exercise any right of foreclosure, sale, or other means of enforcing his security, or to take any steps for the recovery of the principal money secured," and insert instead thereof the words "take any steps for exercising any right of foreclosure or sale or for otherwise enforcing his security or for recovering the principal money thereby secured."

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (4), to add the words,

"Provided also that if, in the case of a mortgage of a leasehold interest, the mortgagee satisfies the County Court that his security is seriously diminishing in value or is otherwise in jeopardy, and that for that reason it is reasonable that the mortgage should be called in and enforced, the Court may by order authorise him to call in and enforce the same and thereupon this Sub-section shall not apply to such mortgage."

Should I be in order in moving here the Clause of which I have given notice with regard to the application of this Bill to Ireland. The Clause is as follows:—

"In the application of this Act to Ireland the Act shall be deemed to apply to dwelling-houses and other premises of any rent or rateable valuation, whether used wholly or partially as dwelling-houses or not, and to all mortgages, whether by the landlord or tenant, or premises to which the Act applies, and whether legal, equitable, or created by deposit of title deeds or otherwise, and whether repayable by instalments extending over any term of years or not."

No. The hon. Member's proposed new Clause makes the Bill applicable to all dwelling-houses of whatever size or rent, whereas this Bill is applicable only to small dwelling-houses.

There is a great deal of uncertainty in the minds of those who hold mortgages whether, in the event of this Bill becoming law, those mortgagees who have increased their rate of interest will have to remit the additional interest paid prior to the date of this Bill coming into operation. Many mortgagees have increased their rate of interest from; 3½ per cent. to 5 per cent., and I have had a number of letters asking whether the mortgagors will have a right to go back to the pre-war interest.

I understand the question is whether, in the event of the interest on mortgages having been raised since the beginning of the War, the increased rate which has been paid will have to be returned to the mortgagor? The answer is that the interest actually paid will not have to be returned. The Bill only provides that the increased interest shall be irrecoverable, and it only operates in that respect from the 25th of November last.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give the House an explanation of the reasons which prompted the Government to put down this Amendment. I should also like an explanation of the words, "the security is seriously diminishing in value or otherwise in jeopardy."

I can only speak by the indulgence of the House, but I may explain that the proviso was put in to meet very special and I hope very infrequent cases. It applies only to mortgages of leasehold property, which are subject to special risks that do not attach to other mortgages. It may be the lease is running out, and that during the currency of the Bill, which may or may not be long, but which will last at any rate until the War ends, the depreciation in the value of security, by the running out of the lease, may be very substantial. In such a case it would not be fair to prevent the mortgagee from calling in his money or otherwise exercising his rights. As to the second part of the proviso, the question of the security being in jeopardy, a similar point arises. The word "jeopardy" is well known in the Courts of Law as applied to mortgages. I will put one case only as an instance. Take the case of a mortgage of a leasehold public-house, and assume that the tenant, who is the licensee, has been guilty of conduct which endangers the licence. Everybody knows that the effect of the loss of the licence might be to diminish by one-half the value of the property. In such a case, provided the facts are as I have put them, we suggest that where the mortgagee is really in danger of losing his money, the Court shall be allowed to consider the case, and, if they come to the conclusion that it is a case of hardship or one to which they might reasonably apply some remedy, it would be open to them to do so. The Court in such a case would probably allow the mortgagee to commence proceedings and apply for the appointment of a receiver to protect the property until the end of the War. It would be very hard if in such a case as I have suggested the mortgagee were to be entirely debarred from any remedy.

May I ask whether this would not apply to almost every public-house in London? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"] May I ask would this not apply to all public-houses in all restricted areas where the Central Control Board, by limiting the hours and facilities for sale, really diminish the value of the property?

I would like to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will communicate with the Treasury in order that, in cases where duties are payable to Somerset House in respect of mortgages which cannot be called in—

I do venture to press the case where mortgages cannot be called in, and to suggest that some provision might be inserted for dealing with them. Suppose such a mortgage becomes a security upon which a man has to pay Death Duties. He may have no means of paying the duties because the mortgage cannot be called in.

I regard with grave misapprehension these repeated Amendments from the Government Bench which have the effect of qualifying and diminishing what we think to be the substantial merits of this Bill. We are told by the learned Solicitor-General that this Amendment is to apply to only a single case, the case of a leasehold mortgage. But I would like to remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman that there is very little else in London except leaseholds. In this city, with its poulation of four and a-half millions, there are very few people who have any freeholds at all, and that fact is well known to the right hon. Gentleman. Therefore, when you introduce a Clause depriving the leasehold mortgagee of the fixity of tenure proposed to be given him by this Bill you are doing a very serious thing. It may be right, but I do suggest it is a matter which deserves very serious consideration on the part of the President of the Local Government Board. Further, the Solicitor-General tells us that in the event of a security being in jeopardy the right course is to go to the Chancery Division and apply for a receiver, and that that will mitigate all the evils of the case. The right hon. Gentleman is, no doubt, referring to the advice he would give to affluent clients in the Chancery Division who are accustomed to apply to the Courts to appoint a receiver. But this is a remedy which is in no way applicable to houses of the rental value of £35 a year. I think I have pointed out a very grave evil which is introduced into the Bill by this Amendment.

I have been very much interested by what has been said by the Solicitor-General. It is quite clear that, in certain cases, the mortgagee of leasehold property ought to have this protection. Every hon. Member who studies the question will realise that there are cases in which protection should be given. At the same time what has fallen from the last speaker requires consideration. If it is the fact that the vast bulk of property in London is leasehold it seems to me this Amendment leaves a very wide gap in the Bill, and I would ask whether it would not be possible for the Government to consider the limiting of this Amendment to cases where the lease had a certain number of years to run, and not to extend it generally to all leasehold property?

It is well-known that in many cases that trustees are unable to lend money on leases with less than sixty years unexpired, and if some words were put in the Amendment to the effect that if such leases were in jeopardy the Clause would be brought into operation, that would make the holders of leasehold mortgages less timid about their security. I suggest that the Amendment shall be so framed by the Government as to give them that security.

It appears to me that this Amendment will have very far-reaching effects, not only in London, but all over the country. There are a large number of places where all property is virtually held on the leasehold system. In Devonport, for instance, and in Bootle, in Lancashire, you might, too, go right through the whole of Cornwall and find it is entirely leasehold for small property. In the same way I might go through the whole country and show how this Amendment would very generally apply. The hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Pearce) has referred to sixty years' leases. But in a discussion which took place before a Committee on which I sat, on the leasehold question, sixty years' leases were spoken of as equivalent to freeholds; therefore this Amendment would not apply to them. I take it it would only apply to much shorter leases. The Government are really asking for a power which I think would interfere very materially with the working of the Act when it has become law, and unless they can qualify more strongly this particular power they certainly will take away some of the benefits of the Bill.

I do not think that those who have spoken on this Amendment can have considered it. Can it be said that practically the whole of the leasehold property mortgages are seriously diminishing in value or are in jeopardy? Obviously it cannot. No doubt there may be special cases, and it would be extremely unjust to the man who had advanced the cash that in such cases he should not be able to recover it at once. Obviously the Amendment is designed to meet special cases only.

I can assure the House that these Amendments have been most carefully considered by my right hon. and learned Friend, myself, and my advisers. I think I am absolutely correct when I say that the suggestions that they diminish the original powers of the Bill in any material way, or are likely to weaken its effect, are wholly without foundation. This Bill is, after all, a drastic one. It goes very far and acts in not only a novel but a fearless manner with the existing difficulty. It is absolutely necessary to see that the legitimate rights of people are protected, and that we do not in removing one evil create another which will operate with at least as much hardship as that with which we are seeking to deal. I can assure the House that these Amendments have been most carefully considered, not only with the idea of meeting the particular difficulty with which they are intended to deal, but also with reference to the general result of the Bill. The fears expressed are without foundation, and I think the House can take it from the Government that all these Amendments have been conceived in the spirit in which the House passed the Bill when it desired that it should be effective and very widespread in its operation.

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 2.—(Interpretation and Application.)

(1) For the purposes of this Act except where the context otherwise requires:—

( a ) The expression "standard rent" means the rent at which the dwelling-house was let on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, or, where the dwelling-house was not let on that date, the rent at which it was last let before that date, or, in the case of a dwelling-house which was first let after the said third day of August, the rent at which it was first let:

( b ) The expression "standard rate of interest" means in the case of a mortgage in force on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, the rate of interest payable at that date, or in the case of a mortgage created since that date the original rate of interest:

( c ) The expression "rateable value" means the rateable value on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, or in the case of a house or part of a house first assessed after that date, the rateable value at which it was first assessed:

( d ) The expressions "landlord," "tenant," "mortgagee," and "mortgagor" include the predecessors and successors in title of such persons:

( e ) The expression "mortgage" includes a land charge under the Land Transfer Acts.

(2) This Act shall apply to a house or a part of a house let as a separate dwelling where such letting does not include any land other than the site of the dwelling-house and a garden or other premises within the curtilage of the dwelling-house where either the annual amount of the standard rent or the rateable value of the house or part of the house does not exceed—

( a ) in the case of a house situate in the metropolitan police district, including therein the City of London, thirty-five pounds;

( b ) in the ease of a house situate in Scotland, thirty pounds; and

( c ) in the case of a house situate elsewhere, twenty-six pounds;

and every such house or part of a house shall be deemed to be a dwelling-house to which this Act applies: Provided that this Act shall not apply to a dwelling-house let at a rent which is less than two-thirds of the rateable value thereof.

(3) Where for the purpose of determining the standard rent or rateable value of a dwelling-house to which this Act applies, it is necessary to apportion the rent or rateable value at the date in relation to which the standard rent is to be fixed of the property in which that dwelling-house is comprised, a County Court may, on application by either party, make such apportionment as seems just, and the decision of the Court as to the amount to be apportioned to the dwelling-house shall be final and conclusive.

(4) This Act shall apply to every mortgage where the mortgaged property consists of or comprises one or more dwelling-houses to which this Act applies, or any interest therein except that it shall not apply—

( a ) to any mortgage comprising one or more dwelling-houses to which this Act applies and other land if the rateable value of such dwelling-houses is less than one-tenth of the rateable value of the whole of the land comprised in the mortgage, or

( b ) to an equitable charge by deposit of title deeds or otherwise.

(5) Where this Act has become applicable to any dwelling-house or any mortgage thereon it shall continue to apply thereto whether or not the dwelling-house continues to be a dwelling-house to which this Act applies.

(6) This Act shall apply only to the rent payable by a tenant in actual occupation of the premises and to mortgages by the immediate landlord of such tenant:

Provided that where this Act has become applicable to the rent payable by any tenant, or to the rate of interest payable under any mortgage, and the dwelling-house is subsequently sub-let by the tenant, this Act shall apply not only to the rent payable by the sub-tenant and mortgages by the tenant, but also shall continue to apply to any rent payable by the tenant, and any mortgage by his immediate landlord to which it has become so applicable as aforesaid.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( b ), to leave out the words "rate of interest payable at that date," and to insert instead thereof the words "interest at the rate of 4 per cent. or such higher rate of interest as was payable prior to the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen."

My hon. Friend the Member for South Aberdeen (Mr. Esslemont) has asked me, in his unavoidable absence, to propose this Amendment. I understand that he moved it in Committee, but that after some discussion he agreed to withdraw it in consideration of the President of the Local Government Board promising to consider the point between that stage and Report, and in order that he might have an opportunity of consulting with his advisers on the subject. This particular Amendment is moved on behalf of a building society in the constituency of my hon. Friend. I understand that this particular building society is a typical society and represents many other building societies throughout the length and breadth of the country. The position with which my hon. Friend and this building society desires to deal is this: They have advanced large sums of money, indeed the greater proportion of their money, at very low rates of interest —3, 3¼, 3½, 3¾ per cent. By this measure they will be precluded from raising the interest on their mortgages. That will have a very injurious effect upon their financial position. They think that in the present condition of finance and the large interest that is now being paid by the Government on war investments they ought to be entitled to raise their rate of interest to at least 4 per cent., because they feel with the low rate of interest they are at present getting their financial position will be to a certain extent endangered.

I beg to second the Amendment. I am afraid that it may be thought that I am trying to raise the rate of interest; I am not. This Bill is going to put a great many small building societies in a very serious position. I feel sure that if it lasts very long it will ruin them. Their condition is this: A great many of them, indeed most of them, trade upon deposit money They have hitherto been obtaining that money at 3½ per cent. and sometimes even less than that. With the War Loan and other inducements that are being held out to-day with interest at 4½ and 5 per cent., the depositors are withdrawing and will withdraw their money and place it elsewhere. We have indications that they are already beginning to do it. Building societies and investing societies must pay out these deposits when the notification time runs out. It is quite clear that if these small institutions are to carry on at all they must be able to charge on their own loans at least a sum equivalent to the rate of interest which they have to allow to depositors. It may be said, "No, they must take their chance." All I can say is, it is very hard upon them. The case mentioned by my hon. Friend (Mr. Watt) is not the only case. There are two cases in my own Constituency where the same position obtains, namely, that they will have to pay 4 per cent. and upwards for the deposits. If they lose those deposits, or if they cannot get in an equivalent sum for what they lend—it is quite clear that if you borrow at 4 per cent. you cannot lend at 3¾—they are coming to grief in a very short time. This position has to be faced in some way or other. I can assure my right hon. friend it is a very serious position, and that if this Bill lasts for any length of time a great many of these institutions will have to close their doors. I would point out that 4 per cent. on these small houses is a very usual sum to charge; indeed, it is very moderate. A great many of these houses would not have been built but for the accommodation afforded by industrial, investing, and building societies. If it is restricted, they cannot lend the money. They will not have any money to lend, because they cannot afford to pay the interest, therefore it will affect the building of small houses to a very large extent. For these reasons the matter ought to be very seriously considered. It is very dangerous. I should like to see the rate of mortgage interest reduced as far as possible. Far be it from me to raise it for anybody, but, at the same time, some consideration should be shown to these building and investing societies who depend wholly upon the deposits received from time to time.

It is desirable that I should rise at once in order to deal with this question, not only in regard to this particular Amendment, but in regard to the general question of building societies which was raised in Committee. I then stated that between the Committee and the Report stage I, my right hon. and learned Friend, and the Government would give our most careful consideration to it, but I then indicated that the building societies and their representatives must, if they wanted their case met, consider the difficulties for themselves and produce some definite and practical proposals before we got to the Report stage. Indi- cations to this effect were, to my knowledge and by my directions, made to the building societies. In regard to this particular Amendment, I would only say it would be quite impossible to accept it as an Amendment dealing with the difficulties of the building societies. My hon. Friend who seconded the Amendment (Mr. J. M. Henderson) has referred to the case of the building societies in somewhat ominous terms. He is a far better judge than I am of how much or how little it is to the interest of the building societies to discuss their position in the terms which he employed just now. I am not suggesting, of course, that he has done anything wrong, but I do not think we are going to help these societies or similar institutions by telling the world, or the people who are interested in them, that this or that Statute or Section is going to bring ruin upon them. They stand or fall with the rest of the community in conditions which are undoubtedly very trying and full of anxiety. I would remind the House that at the beginning of the War it was not only building societies which we were told were going to be overtaken by speedy ruin. We heard the same prophecies indulged in with regard to almost every financial institution in this country. It is a matter about which we have every reason to be proud that, after fifteen or sixteen anxious months of war and its consequent trial and heavy expenditure and circumscribed powers of making money, our position is as strong as it is to-day. I cannot help hoping that these fears are not well-founded. As I have told the House, I have made it my business to get into communication with the building societies, from whom I have, from the beginning, received the most generous consideration, who have met me in every way, and who have done their best to face a difficult situation and have discussed it with me both in general and in detail. I am permitted to read to the House this letter which I have received from the Building Societies' Association. They write to me to say that the Parliamentary Committee met on the 10th of this month

"with a view to making suggestions to you for amendment on the Report stage. It fully realises, as it is hoped you do, that large withdrawals may have to be met, whilst the power of calling in mortgages, which was expressly reserved to provide for precisely such a contingency, has been suspended by the Bill.

After most careful consideration, the Committee has come to the conclusion that the only effective method of assisting building societies, beyond what has already been done, would be to exclude them from the operation of the Bill, or allow them slightly to increase their rate of interest to borrowers …"

That is the immediate, object of the Amendment before the House and of the speeches to which we have just listened.

"It is understood, however, that you would regard this as a departure from the main principle of the Bill. The committee will, therefore, not embarrass you with any further suggested Amendments, but, as you have throughout manifested a desire to assist these institutions, so far as you could do so without departing from the main purpose of the Bill, the committee gratefully accepts the concessions you have already made, and hopes that in the event of the measure resulting in serious injury to building societies you will be prepared to consider proposals, which it may be necessary to make, to mitigate the effects of the adverse conditions thus created."

The decision at which the Parliamentary Committee, on behalf of all these societies, has recently arrived, is a wise one. It is the very best decision at which they could arrive in the circumstances. I need hardly say that it will be the duty of the Government closely to watch and carefully to follow the effect of the operation of this or any other Statute which we have passed or may have to pass, and, of course, it will be our duty, if the building societies find that special difficulties are created that trouble them and render their position unstable, to do, if we can, anything to assist them. It is quite clear that nothing short of exclusion or a very considerable Amendment would meet their case. I could not accept a Motion for exclusion. The whole sense of the House, in all stages of the Bill, has been against it, and the overwhelming opinion in Committee was against any suggestion made with a view to giving them this or that relief. No proposal has been made to seriously diminish the powers of the Bill. I have read to the House the decision of the Parliamentary Committee representing all these societies, and, in these circumstances, I hope that my hon. Friends will not think it necessary to press this Amendment, or, indeed, to carry on this discussion. But I think we may be allowed to congratulate ourselves on the public-spirited way in which these societies have acted and to thank them for accepting, as they have done, a situation which is not free from anxiety, but which we all hope will, in the end, turn out to be not by any means so dark as some hon. Members and some of their own friends seem to fear.

Did the right hon. Gentleman include in his consideration small investing companies, because it was more to them that I referred than to building societies?

No, I do not know whether I have had special communications with them, but the provisions of the Bill have become very public and have attracted a good deal of attention in a great many newspapers. I have had no special communications other than those which I have read to the House.

I think my hon. Friends will be fairly well satisfied with the statement that the right hon. Gentleman has made regarding the future position of building societies. They may take it that in the event of any disaster befalling them they will be assisted in some way or other which it is unnecessary to describe at present. At the same time, while these societies are protected I feel some lingering regard for the private investor—the mortgagee, probably of small capital, who, thinking he was doing a patriotic act, has advanced money for the purpose of building small house property in this country. He now finds that he has been lacking alike in foresight and in patriotism. He finds, as the result of the Bill we have been discussing earlier this afternoon, that he would have been much better advised to invest his money in American securities. Had he done that he would have been not only safeguarded in the amount of interest he was enjoying, but would have been able to draw an extra bonus if he had put his security at the disposal of the Government.

Surely it is not right for hon. Members to seek to complicate this Bill with all sorts of matters relating to investments and building societies. We are engaged in a most difficult task and the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill has done his best to meet all portions of the community. That being so, let us not engage in lengthy conversations on these various Clauses, but let us get through the Bill as soon as possible.

I am very sorry the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to accept this or some similar Amendment. The Bill confers wide-reaching powers and may seriously affect these institutions, which have been so useful to the people of this country. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned something about what might have happened at the commencement of the War. At the commencement of the War the Bill was not even thought of. I can quite understand that it is not much good pressing this against the wishes of the Local Government Board, but I very much regret that the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to assist these building societies, especially in Scotland.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move after the word "interest" ["the rate of interest payable at that date"], to insert the words, "whether fixed, or variable, payable or agreed to be paid under the provisions of the instrument creating the mortgage, and of any instrument or agreement modifying or governing the same, so far as such instrument or agreements were valid and existing on that date."

These Amendments were intended to be declaratory of what I understand is the intention of the Clause. The Act provides that the rate of interest is not to be paid above a standard rate, and the interest, in the case of mortgages in force on the 3rd August, 1914, is defined as the rate of interest payable at that date. I think it can hardly be suggested that these are terms of art. They present some difficulty to the legal mind, which should be removed before the Bill passes. We have had a deplorable number of Bills whose meaning it has been left to the Courts of Justice to decide at the expense of the public. I can at once illustrate the ambiguity of this Clause by a case which was brought before me from my own Constituency, which led me to look into the matter. It is the case of two large building societies in Northampton, both of them run upon mutual lines. In each case the mortgages are granted for a fixed term of years, and in each case the rate of interest under the covenant is 4½ per cent., but in each case, under the rules of the society, the directors may, if they think fit, from time to time pass resolutions foregoing some part of the mortgage interest due upon any or all of the mortgages the property of the society, and in practice for some years past, in the case of one of these societies, mortgages in which the agreed rate of interest payable under the mortgage instrument is 4½ per cent. have been in fact the subject of resolutions under which only 3¾ per cent. has been collected. The building societies, the right hon. Gentleman said, have waived now all suggestions for liberty to charge a higher rate of interest, and I want to make it perfectly plain that I am not seeking to get behind that decision in any way. What certain building societies are now asking is whether they are at liberty under this Bill to charge the interest which is payable to them under the mortgage deed, and whether they are at liberty to do so or not depends upon the construction which the English Courts will put upon these words, "payable at that date." My own submission is that the words must be construed to mean the interest reserved under the instrument of mortgage which was in force at that date. The opposite construction would apparently be that the words are to be construed as though they read, "at a rate of interest applicable to the last instalment received prior to that date," but it takes a somewhat violent perversion to turn the words in that way. I urge that whatever view the Local Government Board take of the meaning of this Clause as applicable to mortgages in this country, they should have the courage to so alter the words as to make plain what their meaning is.

I can give another illustration of the difficulty of interpreting these words. Take the ordinary case of a builder who has borrowed on an ordinary letter deposit with the title deeds from a London bank. In that case the rate of interest would be 1 per cent. per annum above the Bank of England rate of the same day, computed day by day, but never below 5 per cent. per annum. If, on the advice of the solicitors of the bank, that document is subsequently implemented by a legal mortgage to improve the security, the case would come within the meaning of this Act. Then I ask the House to consider what is the intention of Parliament as regards the rate of interest which may be charged by that bank. If the words "payable at that date" mean the rate of interest reserved by the instrument, he cannot be charged more than 6 per cent. at present, or, indeed, at any time since five days after the outbreak of War. But if the words mean the rate of interest which was applicable to the last instalment of interest receivable prior to that date, the Government have hit upon a very unfortunate date in selecting the third day of August for this purpose, because at that date the bank rate was 10 per cent., and the only protection afforded to the unfortunate mortgagor by this Bill is that his interest cannot be raised to more than 11 per cent. by the banker. I suggest that a Clause which, on the one hand, says to the struggling building societies, "you shall not raise your rate of interest to more than 3¾ per cent., although your client has agreed to pay you 4 per cent., and, on the other hand, says to the London banker, "You may charge up to 11 per cent. under this Bill on any mortgage effected on the ordinary variable rate of interest terms," is not dealing fairly as between two separate classes of the community. I am told that there is some difficulty in accepting this Amendment because of the difference between English and Scotch law, and because these singular words "payable at that date" bear some satisfactory meaning in the Scottish Courts which unfortunately they do not bear in the Courts of England. I suggest that the time for the continual sacrifice of the interests of this country to these outlying parts of the British Isles might be brought to an end, and if there is really this difficulty, I am not an expert in Scottish law, and I cannot pretend to suggest any method of dealing with it. But there are by the side of the right hon. Gentleman learned Gentlemen well able to remove the difficulty, if it exists, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give his sympathetic attention to an Amendment which I suggest is really necessary in the interests of the country, and is absolutely necessary unless it is to be left to the Courts to give to these words a meaning which no lawyer present would confidently give.

I beg to second the Amendment.

7.0 P.M.

I see very clearly the point that my hon. Friend raises. A bank's common form is to charge a certain percentage above the bank rate with a minimum of so much per cent. I do not know what the right hon. Gentleman proposes to do with regard to a bank loan. The question of bank rate arises here. The bank rate went up to 10 per cent., but that was only for a short time. At the present bank rate you would only pay 6½ per cent., but if it goes up to 7 per cent. you would pay 8 per cent. It seems to me that the bankers are entitled to get what they bargain for or they are not. If not, the mortgage gives them power to draw in. I think there will be a way out of that, because as a rule the advances are on the mortgage building agreement, and not on the specific house at all. There may be a very serious question arise on that. The charge will be on the building agreement, and on any leases that may be granted under it.

The hon. Member who moved this Amendment raises a point which it is extremely desirable to meet, it it is possible to do so without destroying a great part of the value of the Bill. He puts the case of a mortgage reserving a variable rate of interest. What he wants to do is to reserve to the mortgagee the right of varying his interest in accordance with the mortgage documents. That may not appear to be a great alteration in the Bill, but there are cases where, if you put it in this form, it would introduce a serious complication and defeat to a great extent the purpose of the Bill. I am rather reluctant to attempt to explain Scottish law, but, as the hon. Member said, it is true that in many Scottish mortgages—in fact in the majority of them—there is a provision, either in the mortgage itself or in some other document, which enables the interest to be varied from time to time according to the decision of a well-known Scottish authority. The result is that in Scottish mortgages you have your interest raised from time to time, or lowered from time to time, according to the decisions given. If the words of the Amendment are inserted in the Bill the effect would be, that in regard to all these Scottish mortgages the interest might be increased.

Take the case in regard to mortgages in this country. If you look into the points they are not really so serious as the hon. Member suggests. He puts the case of a mortgage to a bank at bank rate, or 1 per cent. above bank rate. I should think that in nearly every case, or in the great majority of cases, such a transaction is effected by an equitable charge with or without a deposit of title deeds, which is a common form of bank mortgage. Those are outside the Bill altogether. Take the case of building societies. I need not deal really with the case of building societies, because those societies appear to be content to take the Bill as it stands, but it does appear to me that if there is a case of a mortgage which reserves interest at 4 per cent., with power to reduce, then the interest payable at the date in question, the beginning of the War, would be 4 per cent. and not the reduced sum which the society might be willing to take. If I am right in that, this Bill as it stands covers the main case which the hon. Gentleman made.

Take another case which is very familiar to all of us. A mortgage may reserve what is called penal interest, interest at 5 per cent., reducible on punctual payment to 4½ per cent. The point is, which is the rate of interest payable on the 4th August! I think it is the 5 per cent. interest. I think the rate payable is the rate actually reserved, although there may be power to pay at the lesser rate within a certain number of days. The intention, and I think the effect of the Bill, is that in all these cases effect shall be given to the rate of interest payable as being that reserved by agreement. If the hon. Member can invent words which will put the purpose of the Bill in clearer terms than it stands to-day, without prejudicing the Scottish case to which I have referred, and others like it, I hope he will be good enough to let us have his suggestions, and I can assure him they will be considered before the Bill is dealt with in another place. I feel satisfied that the words of the Amendment on the Paper would have a very serious effect upon the operations of the Bill, and I do not think it is desirable they should be accepted.

Perhaps I may be permitted to supplement what has been said by the learned Solicitor-General in regard to the Scottish case. In so doing I must admit that I was a little surprised at my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. M'Curdy), bearing the name that he does, referring to Scotland as one of the outlying parts of this Kingdom. After giving the matter the best consideration that I have been able to give it, it seems to me that the Amendment which he has moved would, if carried, entirely frustrate the operation of the Bill in Scotland. The reason for that is the reason referred to by the Solicitor-General. An ordinary case in Scotland is this: You have the rate of interest fixed at 5 per cent. by bond or mortgage deed, and then you have a subsequent and subsidiary agreement, whereby it is stipulated that the rate of interest shall vary according to the decision from time to time of one of those official societies to which the Solicitor-General has referred—procurators in Glasgow and commissioners in Edinburgh. The House will readily observe the effect which this Amendment would have there. It would simply mean this: that you let in a varying rate of interest, and in present conditions an almost uniformly rising rate of interest. If that be so I think the Committee will agree that so far as deeds of that character are concerned you would defeat the purpose which this Bill is intended to serve. Therefore, while I appreciate the force of much that my hon. and learned Friend has said, I would like to point out to him and to the House that the wording of this Amendment would be fatal to the operation of the Act in Scotland. So far as I am concerned I shall oppose the Amendment, and I hope that I shall have the support of my Scottish colleagues in resisting it, unless it is remodelled and put in a form which would be consistent with the main purpose of the Bill.

I would like to be more assured about the real position of building societies and the effect which this particular matter may have upon them. There is some misapprehension about the exact position of the arrangements of building societies. They lend their money on terms of repayment by instalment, extending over a period of years, and the rate of interest which has been described as 4½ per cent., and so on, is not really the rate of interest, because when you take into account the fact that it is paid by instalment the rate of interest is much more than it appears to be. I would like to know whether, when the mortgage of a building society stipulates that the repayment of a loan is to be by instalment, and a certain amount of interest at a certain rate, whether that arrangement will be interfered with by the passing of this Bill, or whether the building society borrowers can go on, assured that they may continue to make their terms under the rules of the society.

I think the point my hon. Friend raises is covered by the proviso inserted in Committee, which preserves the position of the mortgage repayable by instalments.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in paragraph ( d ), to leave out the words "the predecessors and successors in title of such persons," and insert instead thereof, "any person from time to time deriving title under the original landlord, tenant, mortgagee, or mortgagor."

This was the result of a good deal of discussion in Committee, and it appears to me that this is a very satisfactory arrangement, and will undoubtedly conduce to what many of us desire, namely, that all the holders or occupants of houses will be protected and be within this Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In Subsection (1), after the word "Acts," insert the words "1875 and 1897."

In Sub-section (2), after the word "dwelling-house" ["the curtilage of the dwelling-house"], insert the word "and."—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "is less than two-thirds of the rateable value thereof," and to insert instead thereof the words "includes payments in respect of board, attendance, or use of furniture."

These really are two distinct Amendments. The words I propose now to insert are moved with the object of redeeming the promise we made in regard to lodgers. In Committee the question was asked of the Government whether it was clear that this Bill would apply to lodgers. Anyone who is familiar with franchise law will know the difficulty that attends the definition of the word "lodger." Therefore we think the best course to adopt is to make it quite clear that this Bill does not apply to a particular class of tenant. We were in general agreement in Committee that the provision ought not to apply to rents payable by those who obtain in respect of their rent, or in return for their rent, services other than the mere provision of premises, namely, a room, or rooms. Where the service is rendered, or where the rooms are furnished, it is quite obvious that the rent ought not to be within the purview of this Bill. Instead of adopting one suggestion made in Committee that we should define the word "lodger," we have been advised that a better plan will be simply to have a definition of words which would make it clear that certain people ought to be excluded, namely, those who I think the Committee agreed should not be brought into the Bill; at any rate, that is the impression I got from our previous discussion.

If I rightly understand the Amendment as proposed by the President of the Local Government Board, it is that persons who pay rent which includes board and lodging, and no doubt there are many in the country who are in that position, do not get the benefit of this Act. Because a man pays £100 for board and lodging, and lives in a house, or part of a house, which is worth £25 or £30, his rent may be raised regardless of this provision of the Act, and the owner of the premises may have his mortgage interest raised regardless of the Act. I cannot quite see why this should be so, although I suppose there is some good reason which escapes me, why a man who chooses to live on these lines should not get the same protection as the man who becomes the tenant of a house in the ordinary way. If, however, that is the wish of the House and the desire of the Government, I will not further contest the matter, but I do think that this is a point which is worth attending to.

With regard to the inclusion in this definition of the word "furniture," there can be no doubt that there are a large number of furnished lodgings which are permanently occupied, and I believe that the occupiers have the right to just the same protection as those who occupy unfurnished lodgings. But at the same time I quite appreciate the difficulties that the right hon. Gentleman has to meet. I expect, however, that it will give rise to a good deal of dissatisfaction, because the ordinary lodger will now find that his rent can be raised. But inasmuch as the Bill now applies to unfurnished lodgings, I think that is a great improvement, and it practically meets the objection which I felt to the Bill before.

I think the President of the Local Government Board has met the case put before him in Committee as regards lodgings in seaside places; but I think the Amendment will apply to a very large number of people around munition areas, who have other than just bare apartments, and if they use the furniture they may be charged very exorbitant rents. If we could have got a definition of "lodger," I think it would have met the case better, and I ask the learned Solicitor-General if he will give some thought to the question as the Bill passes through another place.

I think the right hon. Gentleman has endeavoured to meet, as far as he possibly can, all the exigencies of the situation. It is very difficult in a Bill of this kind, a temporary measure, to meet all objections and criticisms that can be raised from every point of view. I do think that the right hon. Gentleman has endeavoured to meet the wishes of, and to safeguard the interests of, a particular class of tenant in whom we are all interested, and has protected them from unnecessary rent raising.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Sub-section (3), leave out the words "or rateable value" ["it is necessary to apportion the rent or rateable value"].

After the word "fixed" ["standard rent is to be fixed "], insert the words "or the rateable value."

In Sub-section (4), at the beginning, insert the words, "Subject to the provisions of this Act."—[ Mr. Long ].

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (6), and to insert instead thereof the following new Sub-section,

"(6) Where the standard rent payable in respect of any tenancy of a dwelling house is less than two-thirds of the rateable value thereof, this Act shall not apply to that rent or tenancy nor to any mortgage by the landlord from whom the tenancy is held of his interest in the dwelling-house."

I think a few words of explanation are desirable. The omission of this Sub-section (6) involves a material change in the Bill. There was in Committee, as the House will remember, a very useful discussion upon that Sub-section, initiated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson), and I was very much impressed by the difficulties which might arise under the Sub-section as it stood. The effect of the Subsection was that although the actual occupying tenant was protected, and could not have his rent raised, his immediate landlord, who might himself be a tenant, might have his rent raised upon him. That might have inflicted substantial hardship upon intermediate landlords in such cases. We considered the matter very carefully, and came to the conclusion that the right thing was to abandon the scheme of confining the protection of the Bill to the occupying tenant, and to allow the protection to run right through the series of tenants—so far, of course, as they really are tenants. It still remains the fact that the Bill only applies to premises which are let. I think after that explanation the House may safely accept the Amendment.

I raised in Committee the question of ground rent, and I was told that it was outside the scope of the Bill. I think the Clause as proposed to be amended will do just the very thing I hoped to have done when I suggested that ground rent should be included.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Proposed new Sub-section there inserted.

CLAUSE 3.—(Application to Scotland and Ireland.)

(1) This Act shall apply to Scotland, subject to the following modifications:—

"Mortgage" means a heritable security; "fine" means grassum or consideration other than rent; "mortgagor" and "mortgagee" mean respectively the debtor and the creditor in a heritable security; "covenants" means conditions; "mortgaged property" means the heritable subject or subjects included in a heritable security; "rateable value" means yearly value according to the valuation roll; "rateable value on the third day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen," means yearly value according to the valuation roll for the year ending fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and fifteen; "assessed" means entered in the valuation roll; "land" means lands and heritages; "enactments relating to compounding" include the House-letting and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1911; and "County Court" means the sheriff.

(2) This Act shall apply to Ireland.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "means" ["mortgage means a heritable security"], and to insert instead thereof the words "and incumbrance mean."

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Further Amendments made: Leave out the word "covenants" ["covenants mean conditions"], and insert instead thereof the word "covenant".

Leave out the word "conditions" ["covenant means conditions"], and insert instead thereof the word "obligation."

After the word "roll" ["'assessed' means entered in the valuation roll"], insert the words "'committed waste' means wilfully destroyed the property."—[ Mr. Munro. ]

I beg to move at the end of Sub-section (2), to add,

"Subject to the following modifications:—

Question, "That these words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

I have a Clause on the Paper dealing with the application of the Act to Ireland.

I have already ruled on two occasions that the Clause is out of order, because it is beyond the scope of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4.—(Short Title and Duration.)

(1) This Act may be cited as the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act, 1915.

(2) This Act shall continue in force during the continuance of the present War and for a period of six months thereafter and no longer, but the expiration of this Act shall not render recoverable any sum which during the continuance there of was irrecoverable or affect the right of a tenant to recover any sum which during the continuance thereof was under this Act recoverable by him.

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the word "sum" ["recoverable any sum which during the continuance"], and to insert instead thereof the words "rent or interest."

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

In asking the House to read the Bill the third time, I desire to say a few words. It has gone through all its other stages, and we want to send it to another place as soon as possible, otherwise if it is not read a third time to-night the Bill would not reach the House of Lords until Tuesday or Wednesday. It is for that reason I move the Third Heading now, and, in doing so, I desire to say a word or two about the Bill itself. I want to reaffirm what I said before, that this measure is not an attempt to conciliate any particular class of the community, or any particular section of politicians, nor is it a concession to fear; it is a genuine attempt to deal with what we believe to be a real difficulty, and to remove something which has oppressed a large section of the people, which oppresses them now, and which might materially affect the attitude of the poorest of our countrymen at a time when we want to be united in our determination to see this War carried to a successful conclusion. I recognise that there have been two distinct groups, if I may use that word—one who think that the Bill goes too far, and those who would gladly see it go further, and the Government are most grateful to hon. Members, whatever their views, who, by their moderation and generous acceptance of our suggestions, have enabled the Bill to pass, and they have, I believe, obtained what is really a satisfactory compromise upon a very difficult question.

There have been a great many cases of cruel hardship in which rents have been raised all over the country and advantage has been taken of the cessation of building, the accumulation of population, and a variety of other circumstances, all due to the War. In some country districts there have been cruel cases, not due to the action of the ordinary agricultural land- lord, but due to the action of men who have acquired cottage property, and who have deliberately sought to turn out the labourer or worker, or artisan, and to put in his place people who have got a temporary military occupation in the district. Such action is wholly unjustifiable, and I hope this Bill will stop it. It has been suggested that in some quarters this Bill, when it becomes the law of the land, will be accepted with reservation on the part of an inconsiderable section of the community, who will attempt to make reprisals as soon as the War is over. I hope there will be no spirit of that kind abroad in the country, but that our people will accept the Bill in the spirit in which it has been passed by this House—that of fair play and justice and compromise to all in this crisis. I do not like to use language which might seem to be threatening, but I can only say that if I have the honour to be a member of the Government after this Act is passed, and if I had reason to believe that any section of the community was trying to make reprisals upon those who have taken advantage of this measure, I would raise my voice and do all in my power to stop such a course of action. Unless there is a general willingness to accept this Bill as an expression of Parliament's view of what ought to be done, it will not be possible for some people to take advantage of it. I hope and trust, whether it be those who own houses or whether it be those who are connected with mortgages, that this Bill will be regarded as an honest expression of the view of Parliament upon this difficult question, and that it will be accepted and acted upon, not in accordance with the law of it, but in accordance with its spirit.

Although the Bill is difficult, and although it has raised controversial questions from the beginning to the end, and from the day that I had the honour to introduce it up to this moment, yet during the whole of our proceedings there has not been one single Division, nor has any Member asked the House to divide on any Amendment, however desirable he thought it to be at the time. That is proof of the spirit of compromise which has been present throughout, and for which I thank the House. I hope that will find an echo in the country, and that those who are suffering now will be relieved from their burden, and that the Bill will be the means not only of justice being done, but will prove to be a real benefit to the com- munity at a time when we want specially to remove all causes of annoyance or sense of injustice.

I do not think that any objection will be raised to the Third Reading of the Bill to-night. We have all of us taken a deep interest in it, and throughout the proceedings we have appreciated the fair way in which the right hon. Gentleman has endeavoured to meet us. When the subject was, as it were, in embryo, we asked a number of questions in order that we might elicit the whole of the facts, and the right hon. Gentleman always sought to meet us in his answers to them. When he became convinced from our representation of the wide-spread causes at work, he at once met us in a way which we all appreciated, and the Bill as it has passed through the House, and is to go to another place, is one which I think ought to be speedily put upon the Statute Book.

I join in the closing remarks of the hon. Member opposite. The right hon. Gentleman is justly proud of the fact that there has been no Division upon this Bill, and that this is proof of the spirit of compromise which has been manifested during its consideration. We all appreciate the spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman has met us. Those of us who have taken an interest in the Bill, and who had Amendments put down were met by the representatives of the Government with a genuine desire to produce a Bill that would be workable and effective. I think we can leave the Bill to go to another place, but before passing from it I should like to mention one matter. Owing to an accident I was unable to raise an Amendment which stands in my name, but I hope that my hon. and learned Friend, when the Bill goes to another place, will use his influence to ensure that, where money is expended on a building by the landlord, and he is making a claim to charge an increased rent on the ground of that expenditure, some provision is made by which the tenant shall have particulars of it. I suggest that the landlord should make a return himself in writing, giving particulars of the expenditure and the work done, and hand them to the tenant for his supervision with vouchers for the expenditure. I hope that when the Bill goes to another place, the Government will consider that question, and use their influence to get a provision of the kind I suggest inserted in the Bill.

I join in the congratulation paid to the President of the Local Government Board in regard to the manner in which he has conducted this Bill through the House, his action with regard to Ireland, and the conciliatory spirit which he has exhibited in meeting hon. Members by compromises of an effective character. It is a very complex Bill, and it would have been a matter of great difficulty to get it through the House in the absence of that spirit of conciliation and compromise which the right hon. Gentleman on all occasions so readily showed.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

Munitions of War [Expenses]

Considered in Committee.

Resolved, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the Salaries and Expenses of the Members and Officers appointed under any Act of the present Session to amend the Munitions of War Act, 1915."

Resolution to be reported to-morrow (Friday).

Trading With the Enemy (Extension) Bill

Considered in Committee.—[Progress, 15th December.]

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Prohibit Trading with Persons of Enemy Nationality, etc.)

(1) His Majesty may by Proclamation prohibit all persons resident, carrying on business, or being in the United Kingdom from trading with any persons or bodies of persons not resident or carrying on business in enemy territory or in territory in the occupation of the enemy wherever by reason of the enemy nationality or enemy association of such persons or bodies of persons, it appears to His Majesty expedient so to do, and if any person acts in contravention of any such Proclamation he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour triable and punishable in like manner as the offence of trading with the enemy.

(2) Any list of persons and bodies of persons with whom such trading is prohibited by a Proclamation under this Act may be varied or added to by an Order made by the Lords of the Council on the recommendation of a Secretary of State.

(3) The provisions of the Trading with the Enemy Acts, 1914 and 1915, and of the Customs (War Powers) (No. 2) Act, 1915, and all other enactments relating to trading with the enemy, shall, subject to such exceptions and adaptations as may be prescribed by Order in Council, apply in respect of such persons and bodies of persons as aforesaid as if for references therein to trading with the enemy there were substituted references to trading with such persons and bodies of persons as aforesaid, and for references to enemies there were substituted references to such persons and bodies of persons as aforesaid, and for references to offences under the Trading with the Enemy Acts, 1914 and 1915, or any of those Acts, there were substituted references to offences under this Act.

(4) For the purposes of this Act a person shall be deemed to have traded with a person or body of persons to whom a Proclamation issued under this Act applies, if he enters into any transaction or does any act with, to, on behalf of, or for the benefit of, such a person or body of persons which if entered into or done with, to, on behalf of, or for the benefit of, an enemy would be trading with the enemy.

Amendment proposed [15th December]: In Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "His Majesty may by Proclamation prohibit."—[ Mr. Butcher. ]

Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee will remember that when we adjourned last night an important question had been raised by several Members, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir Henry Dalziel), by the hon. and learned Gentleman sitting opposite, and by others, as to whether this Bill should be treated as a Bill which would apply not only to cases of suspicious trading in foreign parts, but also to similar cases in the British Dominions. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Lord Robert Cecil) explained that his intention in introducing the Bill had been to make provision solely for cases that arose in foreign parts. But it had already been pointed out with great acuteness by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for York and others, that the language of the Bill was perfectly consistent with its application to similar cases inside our own country. That is the position which has been pointed out, and which has to be dealt with. The right hon. Gentleman, amongst other things, said last night that the Government took all the time of the House, and that it was only right and proper that those who felt strongly on this subject should take advantage of the Bill which gave them an opportunity to raise their points. I make no sort of complaint of that; I think it is a perfectly natural course to take, and I shall explain the position of the Government. I was not able to deal with it last night, because obviously on an important matter of this kind I must consult with the Departments immediately concerned. If I may say in one sentence about myself, this is not really a Home Office matter, so much as a matter for the Board of Trade and the Law Officers, but I do not want to draw those distinctions, as we are all answerable, as far as may be, for the whole. I shall submit a proposal, after careful consultation with the Board of Trade and the Law Officers, about which we are all agreed. I would most urgently press upon the Committee that this Bill should be a Bill confined to its original purpose, but that, at the same time, we should at once make provision in a separate Bill, as early as it can be introduced, for dealing with the point which was particularly pressed upon us last night.

Let me point out why it is that this Bill ought to be confined to its original purpose. This Bill proceeds on the principle that where you have a pro-German firm, say in South America, by putting that firm on the black list you will secure that British customers of that firm will not be able to trade with that firm in South America without incurring a penalty for a criminal offence. Of course, the reason yon do that is because you want to do all that you can to prevent that suspected South American firm from assisting the enemy. But nobody would adopt such a roundabout method if he were able to attack that South American firm directly. The reason why this method is adopted in this Bill of my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, is precisely because the people that he wants to control are people outside the jurisdiction to which British law applies. Obviously, if you have a similar case where the firm in question is within the jurisdiction, the right thing to do is not to go and penalise people who trade with such firms, but to attack such firms direct. Whether it be by control or whether it be by inspection, or whether it be by suppression, that is plainly the right way. So far as this Bill is concerned, the more roundabout method is adopted for the simple and sufficient reason that direct methods are not possible since nobody here can appoint a supervisor of a firm in South America or an inspector of a firm in South America, and nobody can prosecute a firm in South America. Those conditions are not conditions under which you ought to try and deal with suspected cases in this country.

That is why I urge we should make this Bill, as it was intended to be, a Bill that applies to those foreign cases, but at the same time that the Committee should have the definite assurance which come hon. Members were asking for last night. I communicated with the Board of Trade and others of the Government, and this is the proposal which we would be prepared to present, and for which the Board of Trade would be responsible as soon as circumstances make it possible. Let me remind the Committee of what the present position is. As things are, in the case of a firm which is suspected of having enemy associations in this country there are many very important precautions already provided by legislation. I am not at all prepared to take up the position that nothing has been done to meet this obvious evil. That really is not a fair way of dealing with the matter. A great deal has been done, and very effectively and very actively done. There is power now to appoint a supervisor who, of course, is acting on behalf of the authorities, and whose British instincts and prejudices are beyond all possible challenge and dispute. That has been done in a great number of cases. I remember asking some months ago, and I was told by the Board of Trade, that there was no substantial concern in this country in which there might otherwise have been predominant German control which was not in fact being, under our existing legislation, kept from the possibility of action in the interests of our enemy. Thus there is supervision, and then there is the right of the Board to appoint inspectors, which has been very largely exercised It is often done with good results in the sense that you find out something you are glad to have the opportunity of stopping. It is, again, constantly done in order to investigate suspicions, and, even though the suspicions turn out to be unfounded, we are all the better off because we ascertain the facts. All that has been done. There is of course also the existing power of prosecuting a firm which is continuing to trade and which is found to be trading with the enemy. There is as well the most elaborate check going on night and day which is involved in the postal censorship.

But it is quite fair to say with reference to all that, which I think is the point which some hon. Members made last night, "those proposals are all very well, but all of them are addressed to the condition that the firm in question shall go on carrying on business, and the object of that machinery, however good it may be, is not to stop the firm or to wind up the firm, and it allows the firm to go on." I hold the view that there are a great many cases where our existing practice is the right one. But that is no reason why, if there be cases which should be dealt with in a different way, we should not take power to do so. At present, as I understand, there is no specific power in any Department of the Government to deal with one of those suspected firms by the method of closing down or winding-up as such. I dare say my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General might find some ingenious way of doing it in an extreme case, but that is not one of the express provisions. What I am going to suggest is this: Let us in the shortest possible time by an independent Bill amend the law which at present empowers the Board of Trade to secure the appointment of a comptroller or to appoint an inspector or to do other things in order that one of those suspected businesses may be carried on under supervision, and let us add to those powers a new power that the Board of Trade may, after proper procedure, which will have to be considered, in proper cases, where the national interests require it, instead of authorising the business to go on, make provision for the business to stop. I do not want to use too many words, but the substance of the thing is that we should add to our existing power the power in proper cases, and where the national interests require it, of securing by Order that a given under- taking suspected of enemy association may be stopped from carrying on business.

It is quite clear, therefore, that the only firms, German firms, which are to be allowed to trade are where it is in the British national interests that those firms should trade, and it is quite clear from what the right hon. Gentleman says that any other German firm trading in this country will not be allowed to trade unless it is in the national interests and national safety that that should be so?

The hon. Baronet, I am sure, will not wish me, and it would be a very dangerous thing for me to go on and multiply words about a matter which will have to be carefully considered when you see the text of the Bill. What I have tried to do is to make our intention clear in straightforward words. Let me say this: The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs last night laid down in a single sentence what he thought the principle ought to be.

What I am saying is intended to be in strict accordance with that principle. How you would treat any given case would depend on the facts, and I think the Board of Trade is the proper Department to have the responsibility of investigating those facts and dealing with that given case. That is all I want to say now. I think that does fulfil in substance the prospect which I held out last night. I can assure the Committee that this matter is in an advanced state, because, although not many hours have elapsed, I have seen the Board of Trade and the Law Officers, and they are entirely at one as to the principle. My own position in the matter is, if I may call it so, that of the honest broker, and if what I have suggested will get rid of those difficulties nobody will have more reason to be pleased than myself. There is the consequential point that, when we come to the proper place in this Bill, we shall propose the insertion of a few words which will secure that this Bill does not apply in its phraseology over the ground which, as I have suggested, we should cover in a new Bill.

The right hon. Gentleman spoke just now of any undertaking with enemy associations. He used those words perhaps intentionally, but may I ask whether they cover, as well as firms, companies which are of predominantly enemy character?

I did not mean to use any technical words; it is a question of substance which might arise whether the undertaking is incorporated or not.

I am greatly indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for the plain frank statement which he has just made to the Committee. So far as I am able to judge, without any notice, of the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, I should be disposed to say that it is of a very satisfactory character. It is, of course, obvious that it would have been only with great difficulty we could have achieved the purpose we have in view so far as this country is concerned in this Bill which the Noble Lord, the Undersecretary of State, introduced. I think most Members would be glad that what promised to be a complicated situation will be removed by the undertaking given on behalf of the Government, so that we can direct our attention, so far as the Noble Lord's Bill is concerned, to what is going to be done outside these islands. As I understand the statement of the Home Secretary, the Government at last recognised that there is a serious danger to be dealt with in this country, and that immediate action is necessary. I am very pleased that that is the case, and, had it been in order, I should have liked to have commented on the fact that the Government, in another place to-day, said that the law was perfectly satisfactory, and nothing required to be done. But at the same time I accept, of course, the new policy of the Government in that respect. I think there need be no doubt as to what it is that the hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Butcher) had in his mind when he moved his Amendment, and what it is we had in our minds when we supported it. It is the ease of the Continental Tyre Company, with almost every shareholder a German shareholder, and that a company of that kind should not be allowed, during the War, to make huge profits to compete with our British manufacturers and then store up immense assets in order to wage trade war against us when the War is over. That is what we complained of. That situation exists to-day, and nothing has been done to deal with it.

8.0 P.M.

As I understand now the promise of the Home Secretary, the whole situation will be altered so that in future a company of that kind of predominantly German interests will not be allowed to carry on its business in this country unless it is established beyond all doubt that it is for the benefit of the State that it should do so. I imagine that the distinction that will be drawn will be whether the German company operating in this country at the present time is doing anything to help us to win the War. If they are providing, as some of them undoubtedly are, munitions of war, or some matters useful for the successful carrying on of the War, then if they are under proper supervision they ought to continue. I hope, however, that that supervision will be as strict as it is possible to make it. I do not think that the mere fact of appointing a professional man like an auditor or something of that kind is sufficient. I think you ought to have a real business man in close touch with the authorities in order to see how that work is carried on. With regard to all the others, as I understand the promise of the Government, it is that they are going to bring in a Bill which would practically make it impossible for companies of German association or predominating German influence to carry on business here. If that is so, I think we might well express our satisfaction and gratitude to the Government and reserve our examination for the Hill when it is produced. I had hoped we might have had a little more definite promise as to when the Bill will be introduced. No doubt the different Departments are very busy at the present time. But this is not a new question, although we have a new decision. It has been raised very often since the War started, and no doubt the Government are fully acquainted with the lines upon which they intend to act. I do not think it ought to take long to draft the Bill, and I hope the Government will be able to tell us that they may present it before we adjourn for the Christmas holidays. I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for York on the result of his unceasing industry in regard to this matter during the last seventeen months. I am glad that at last he has been able to convince the Government of the necessity for strong and vigorous action in connection with this very important matter.

Speaking for myself, and, I think, on behalf of my hon. Friends who have been good enough to help me so materially in regard to this Amendment, I should like to thank most heartily the Government, and especially the Home Secretary, for having met us so very fairly on the points we raised. I think I may say with confidence that the decision announced by the Home Secretary to bring in a Bill to deal with this very important matter will give great satisfaction not only in this House, but throughout the Kingdom, which has been somewhat alarmed by the extent to which German firms have been allowed to trade in this country. The Home Secretary pointed out —and I think he was perfectly justified— that there would be considerable difficulty in dealing with the branch of the question regarding trading with enemies in this country by the machinery of this particular Bill. I think he is right. Therefore I am glad that he has decided to bring in a new Bill, without any delay if possible, for the purpose of dealing with that branch of the question. Perhaps he will be able to tell us that it will be brought in before we adjourn for the Christmas Vacation. I understand that the Bill is to go upon the principle announced by the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs last night, when he said—I am quoting from the OFFICIAL REPORT— that only those firms which, of course, includes persons and companies—shall be allowed to carry on business which it is the interest of this country to be allowed to carry on business, and no one else. That is the broad principle on which the Bill is to be conceived. The particular machinery by which that result is to be secured will, no doubt, be carefully considered by the Law Officers. The general effect will doubtless be that the Board of Trade, either by their own Order or by applying to the Court, or through the intervention of the Court on the application of some other person, will be able to make provision in cases which are not excepted—that is to say, in cases where it is not to the interest of the country that the firms or companies should be carried on—to bring those firms or companies to an end, either by winding-up or by selling or discontinuing their business, or by whatever the appropriate machinery may be. The Government heard our views pretty fully last night, and they know what our objects are. I feel confident that they will endeavour in their Bill to carry out those objects as far as possible. Therefore I shall, later on, ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

I should like to make an appeal to the Home Secretary or to the representative of the Board of Trade with regard to the announcement just made. I understand the aim of the Government in the new Bill—on the promised introduction of which I congratulate the Government— to be to provide that no alien firms can carry on business in this country if their doing so is thought to be against the national interest. While the Home Secretary could not give a definite promise to the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division (Sir A. Markham), I would suggest that the Bill should be so drawn that, if the Government do not see their way to give the larger power, at any rate we shall be able to raise the question and put our case before them. We want it to be made illegal to trade with any German firm in this country except such firms as the Government except in the national interest, rather than provide that we must prove that a particular firm is trading against the national interest before we can have it dealt with. We want to establish a position whereby it shall be known to everyone that they must not have anything to do with a German firm unless the State declares there is a national interest to be served by so doing. If the Bill is not drawn in that sense—as I hope it will be —I trust the title and scope will be such that we shall be able to press that point of view upon the Government with such evidence as we have at our disposal.

We appreciate the fact that while this is a Foreign Office Bill the House has used an opportunity which came almost by accident to bring up matters outside the scope of that Department. We were a little afraid—I am glad the fear was ill-grounded —lest the Noble Lord should stick tightly to his Bill and ask us to keep our discussion to the Foreign Office question. I wish to express our appreciation that he did not do that, but allowed us to put forward our case and was induced by my hon. and learned Friend to allow the representative of another Government Department to be satisfied on a matter which was not strictly within the four corners of the Bill. The Home Secretary's announcement, while it meets the point in regard to England, does not touch the actual technical point of this Amendment. I have on the Paper another Amendment which you, Sir, would probably not allow me to move as the discussion would cover the same ground; therefore I will make my point now. I am prepared not to move that Amendment if the Noble Lord will give me an assurance on one point. We would prefer direct legislation even against Germans in neutral countries, as well as the concession made by the Home Secretary. The answer of the Foreign Office is that it would be difficult to work, that they have taken all that into account; that they think they can do it in this way, but they do not think they could do it in our way. We cannot contend against that. I am sure my hon. and learned Friend agrees with me. He still desires definite legislation against enemies in a neutral country, if it can be done. He has not changed his view, nor have I. But I make this appeal to the Noble Lord. If we support him in doing it by Proclamation, will he watch the working of the domestic Act in practice, and if it shows a way which cannot now be seen of applying the more direct method abroad, will he listen to representations, later on? It may well be that the operation of the more direct method in this country may throw some light on the question of its working in certain countries abroad as to which we have certain information.

This Bill is admittedly an experiment. It is an entirely new departure— a change in the old traditional law of this country—and we shall watch its working very carefully. If we can see any means of making its working more effective for the purpose we all have in view, we shall certainly adopt it, and, either in this House or in the other, propose to amend its operation. We shall also watch the working of the Bill promised this afternoon, in case it should turn out to throw any light on the practical working of the matter.

I am much obliged. The Noble Lord has convinced me and many of my Friends that this is a genuine attempt to do something. I would far sooner have a genuine attempt made on lines which the Foreign Office think will work rather than induce them to adopt some scheme in which they have no confidence. I shall not move the Amendment standing in my name, and I cordially approve of the decision of the hon. and learned Member opposite to withdraw his Amendment.

The principle laid down by the Noble Lord last night, and that enunciated by the Home Secretary this evening, are very much the same in essence. I cannot go as far as the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) and ask that the new Bill should be so drafted that everybody who traded with a German should be guilty of a criminal offence, even if it were only the case discussed last night—that of a woman buying a loaf in a German bakery of whose German ownership she did not know. I should think the Bill would be the other way round, empowering the Board of Trade, on information reaching them, to shut up any business which they thought it was not to the national interest should be carried on, or was not useful to this country. I have studied this question very carefully, and when the Bill arrives I shall have some illustrations to give, if necessary. Meanwhile I refrain, as I want the Noble Lord's Bill to get through as soon as possible. I thank the Home Secretary for so promptly and frankly meeting us, and the Noble Lord for the way in which he enabled the point to be raised—incidentally, of course, to the benefit of his own Bill.

I think the Committee may congratulate itself on a very interesting discussion, and also on the fact that a great deal of fruit has already been seen. Many of us have been accustomed to sit here and listen to criticism of the Government. We have listened again and again to suggestions which have been put forward. Very often no reply has been vouchsafed, or, if a reply has been given, it has been given in a way that was not very complimentary. We see a change. I congratulate Ministers, and also hon. Members who have taken up and persisted in spite of many rebuffs in the course they commenced. I congratulate them on having got the promise of a new Bill. Having said that much, I look forward to the introduction of this new Bill with keen anticipation. I hope that it will be a very effective and very useful Bill. I should like to sound a note of warning. I am not sure that the Bill ought to be introduced at once. I would much rather see a well-considered Bill, because I am sure that this is by no means a very simple question.

An HON. MEMBER: The War is going on!

I quite admit that the War is going on, and that it is likely to go on for a very long time. It is much better to take a well-considered and an effective step, than a rushing and a sudden step. There has been a good deal of rushing and ill-considered action in connection with the War. If we had been more steady, and more consideration had been given to many of the steps we have entered upon, we would be in a better position to-day. I want to express my feeling that Ministers yesterday seemed to me to go a great deal too far. There were suggestions made in the course of Debate that trading with the enemy should be restricted not only to during the War, but afterwards, and that we should at once initiate and support a Bill to prevent all trading with the enemy after the War. My hon. Friend (Mr. H. Smith) appears to be of that opinion. I am distinctly of the opposite opinion. I think it is very unwise for us now to say what we are going to do when the War comes to an end. I believe we shall be in a stronger position if we hold our hand, and do not rashly declare what we are going to do after the War. We do not know what will come. We do not know the conditions the end of the War will bring. I very much regret that the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs spoke yesterday as if his object now was to make all trading with the enemy impossible after the War. That is how I took his observations. If I am mistaken, I shall be very glad. Let me point out what I mean. It is very easy to cite one or two cases which will at once put the matter in a clear position. There are certain natural products, as well as manufactured products, which can only be got from Germany, or practically only from Germany. In the field of agriculture there is nothing more necessary than phosphates. I challenge any geologist in the world to deny that the great phosphate deposits in the world are practically all in Germany. If we are going to say now that after the War we will not—

On a point of Order, Mr. Maclean. Is not the hon. Member not talking on the Bill, but on the future?

Also on a point of Order. May I point out that the Home Secretary himself has dealt with a Bill that he is going to produce, and thus the discussion has been diverted to those lines by general consent, and the Committee have gladly welcomed it.

On that point of Order. I said what I did in the hope and belief that it would lead to the Amendment being withdrawn.

The references of the hon. Member are covering rather a wide field. If there is an opportunity on the Third Reading of the Bill the remarks he is making will be much more appropriate.

I will not go further on that point. I assure the Home Secretary, who is very anxious to get the Bill, that I will not keep him very long. There is one other point which is strictly in connection with the Bill, and in fact in connection with the actual Amendment we are discussing. It is quite possible for a man abroad absolutely to be trading with the enemy without knowing it. I remember on one occasion being one of a party at a Swiss hotel. We stayed there for some weeks. I think we did ourselves very well, and ran up a fair bill. At the end of it I found that the hotel-keeper was not a Swiss, but a German citizen. That did not matter before the War, but now, during a time of war, if those circumstances occurred, and I innocently stayed at an hotel which to all intents and purposes was Swiss, I might, under this Bill, be guilty of a misdemeanour.

We may be quite sure that the black list would not be posted up in that hotel, which is the only place it would be effective for my purpose!

I brought this matter up. I have half-a-dozen illustrations which are quite effective ones, and which perhaps I will go into on some other occasion. But a Bill like we are looking forward to is not at all a simple matter. It must be carefuly thought out. We should not be rushed on the impetus of a very patriotic and right feeling into hasty legislation which would be fatal.

Since my right hon. Friend's statement was made other formulæ have been used in reference to the Bill, but the exact terms of his statement remain on record, and I am quite sure that the House will be satisfied that the matter will be adhered to in accordance with the promise made. With regard to the time when the new Bill should be introduced, it has been said, and perfectly truly, by the hon. Member for North Somerset, that this is a matter which requires to be carefully done. It will not be a long Bill. It must be a Bill very carefully thought out and framed. It is obvious that unless the Bill is to be in every respect an agreed Bill, and can go through its stages practically without debate, it will hardly be possible to deal with it before the House adjourns for Christmas. I can assure the Committee that no time whatever will be lost, and we shall do our very best to bring the Bill in, and deal with it at the earliest possible moment.

We hope we have acted to-night in the belief that we really have got something of substance. I am going entirely on what the Home Secretary said, when he used the word "stop" in regard to certain business, and I hope we are not being taken in by any mere formula to-night, because I have no doubt Ministers have thought out the real words to govern this matter. What we think he is doing is that he is going to stop German companies trading in this country, and I hope the Government will not take the view that we are going to wait now for two or three weeks until the Bill is drawn, and that then it is going to take its ordinary rough-and-tumble chances in the pressure of legislation. This is a pressing and urgent matter. I would undertake myself almost to draw a Bill in twenty-four hours to cover the points we have in view, and with their draftsmen and all the assistance they have, surely it ought not to take much time. What I wish for is that the Government will give us a promise, if humanly possible, to table a Bill before the adjournment for Christmas, and that they will do their best to pass it into law with the least possible delay. Unless we get the Bill before the end of this Session, I think our time-has been practically wasted. It is now eighteen months overdue.

In view of the assurance given by the right hon. Gentleman, I am perfectly willing to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "persons" ["persons resident, carrying on business"], to insert the words "or bodies of persons."

I do not object to this Amendment.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "enemy" ["in the occupation of the enemy"], to insert the words "or with the agents of such persons wherever resident or carrying on business."

Perhaps I may be allowed formally to move this Amendment in order to make the matter clear. Perhaps the words "wherever resident or carrying on business" may not be necessary, but I would ask whether the word "agents" is not desirable?

I hope my hon. and learned Friend will not press this Amendment. One of the objects of having a list is to enable the traders of this country to be perfectly certain whether the trade they desire to do is legitimate or illegitimate. The proper plan is to insert the agent's name upon the black list, and then you arrive at a certainty as to one of the main objects of the measure.

I should like to ask a question on this point. Is the Noble Lord quite satisfied that the words "not resident" carry out what I am sure he has in his mind? It puzzles any man reading the whole Clause to know really what was in the mind of the draftsman at the time, because, as I understand it, the words "not resident" mean practically not resident in this country.

I should have thought it would have been better to have had a definition which would have been much clearer. If he is quite satisfied that it will carry out all he has in view, I will not do more than say that I think the drafting might have been improved.

We shall have another opportunity of considering any question of drafting. I agree that at first sight it does look a little clumsy, but I think it is worded so as to bring it into form with the Proclamations as to trading with the enemy already existing; but I will look into the point.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (l), after the word "enemy" ["in the occupation of the enemy"], to insert the words "(other than persons or bodies of persons resident or carrying on business solely within His Majesty's Dominions)."

This is the wording I ask to add. The Committee will see that it is right I should put in the word "solely," otherwise I might be failing to carry out what I intend, as there may be a case of a business partly carried on in this country and partly carried on abroad.

It will be observed that I have an Amendment on the Paper to insert at the end of the Sub-section the following words: "For the purposes of this Act, a company registered in the United Kingdom in which the whole or the majority of the shares are held by persons of enemy nationality shall be deemed to be a body of persons of enemy nationality or enemy association." If the words of the right hon. Gentleman are inserted they will cut out my Amendment. May I take it from the right hon. Gentleman that the purpose of my Amendment is one of the questions that will be dealt with by the new Bill? If that is so, I have nothing more to say. I certainly think it ought to be dealt with here.

Of course we want to frame the new Bill without delay, and it will not assist the matter if I start discussions about it now; but I said before, and I say again, as I understand the matter, our now Bill is a Bill which for the purpose of judging enemy association will have to take into account the question of substance which might arise whether the undertaking is incorporated or not.

Might I ask the Home Secretary whether one of the purposes of this Bill is to do what Lord Halsbury proposes to do in a Bill which received Second Reading the other day in another place? It seems to me that when attempting to define the law the Home Secretary can perfectly easily deal with this question of companies, firms, or persons of enemy association, without trying to go into the definition or status of incorporated companies. I should like to know what course he is going to pursue, because if he is going to do all that Lord Halsbury proposes in his Bill, and is going to do that almost immediately, clearly it will introduce complications in the question of defining the law. With regard to the words in this Amendment, "solely within His Majesty's Dominions," I should like to know whether those words will exclude from the purview of this Bill such places as Hong Kong and other places in China where British trade is carried on under treaty terms. Although I know that the Government have done all they can to regulate the very large number of enemy companies using our territory, they are still very numerous.

Then with regard to Hong Kong this Bill would have no operation, and therefore I do not think these words would be satisfactory. Although a good deal has been done to regulate the activities of these German firms abroad, they are still going on under all sorts of cloaks and disguises. I asked a question not long ago upon this point, and I was told that the purpose of the Government was to eliminate German interests from the Colony of Hong Kong. I know that is the purpose they have in view, but if that is so, why restrict your powers by expressly shutting out from the purview of this Bill those places where you could most effectively deal with this question? This Bill would be of the greatest use on the West Coast of South America, where the enemy firms have not had to take on the same disguises as at Hong Kong.

May I point out to my hon. Friend that in Hong Kong this Bill is not necessary, because we can legislate there by Orders, as it is a Crown Colony. If there is any German firm in Hong Kong which ought to be suppressed we can do it directly by an Order, but it would be a laborious and circuitous way to suppress that firm by cutting off his communications with British shipping when you can suppress it out of hand by an Order. That is why it is not necessary to apply this Bill to British Dominions. We cannot do this in any self-governing Colony.

I do not ask the Government to make any alteration to the words which have been proposed at this stage, but I hope I may make one suggestion. According to this Amendment it is clear that you could not place on your black list any firm which carried on business in our Colonies. Take Canada as an example. The result, surely, is that whereas you take yourselves in two Bills powers to deal with all persons in foreign countries, if they happen to be in any of our Colonies they can escape scot free.

I think you might equally protect yourselves against a German improperly trading in Canada or in America.

It seems to me that a person has only to go from America into Canada, and he can immediately escape the consequences of this legislation.

I do not see what the object of this Amendment is at all. It is curtailing the power which existed in the original Bill. If the Foreign Office think the power is unnecessary they will not use it, but is it wise for us to tie the hands of the Foreign Office by bringing in an Amendment which is not at all necessary unless we suspect the Foreign Office of using it improperly, which I do not think anybody is likely to do. The words of this Amendment involve a certain amount of doubt in the expression "carrying on business solely," and those words may lead to trouble. Further, we have not got the second Bill passed yet, and though I have every reason to hope that it will be passed as expeditiously as right hon. Gentlemen opposite think, still, accidents might happen in the interval, and, if you leave the Bill without this Amendment, the Foreign Office can, in an emergency, deal with a firm, although they are carrying on business exclusively in this country. Why the Government should object to having this power in a Government Department I do not know. Those who have opposed the Bill have always supported this particular proposal, and have asked the Government to go further and exercise all their powers under it. The Government now move an Amendment to restrict their powers in a very vital part of the Bill. Take a case in which the offence might well be committed by a person in England if they had goods shipped from a place in Canada to assist some belligerent. In that case you would be legislating for the Colony merely from a local point of view, and not for any particular part of the Colony itself. I cannot see what possible good will be done by this Amendment and I hope the Government will not use this power. I should prefer these words to be left out.

My right. hon. Friend has explained quite plainly the reasons why it was very undesirable to deal by this Bill with enemy firms and companies in this country, indeed, it was part of the bargain that, my right hon. Friend having met the general wish of the Committee that firms in this country should be dealt with by a separate Bill, we should have leave to amend this Bill. With regard to the other point, the Colonies and the self-governing Dominions would be entitled to complain if even in this indirect way we prohibited persons from dealing with enemy aliens in the Colonies themselves, because to do so would really be to assume that the Dominions were not doing their duty in this particular matter, and were not able and perfectly willing to control persons in their own territory. If hon. Members would study, as I have had occasion to study, the Colonial Statutes they would know that the Colonies are not slow to deal with such matters, and I think we may safely trust them to deal with enemy aliens in their midst. I hope that the Amendment will be accepted.

May we hear what is the Amendment before the Committee—we really do not know?

I do not know whether the hon. Member was here, but it was read very clearly from the Chair and by the Home Secretary.

I do not think the hon. Member is really entitled to have it read a third time.

There is more in this than the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir G. Cave) thinks. Let me take a definite case. There is a German firm in Cape Town with which it is thought undesirable that people in England should deal. How can you make it an offence for a banker or a merchant in London to trade with a particular firm in Cape Colony? You cannot make an offence of it. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of suppressing it. You may attempt to suppress a firm, but it is not such an easy thing as the right hon. Gentleman seems to imagine. Take the case of an agent in Johannesburg. You may suppress the building, its name, and its front, but yet that person can carry on his business perfectly well and exceedingly usefully without that building. How can you suppress a broker in Johannesburg? What you want to do is to make it an offence that a person over here should be trading or carrying on business with that particular person in the Colony indicated. The right hon. Gentleman said, quite truly, that I was not here when the Home Secretary made his speech, but I have been told the substance of it, and I quite understand what he said. What possible harm can there be in leaving this Bill as it is without the Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman himself has his name on the back of it, although he was not here when it was read a second time. Probably he has read it, and I am only asking that it should be put in the same form as it was drafted and he passed it. Surely there is no cause for the Government to be angry with me when I merely ask that the Bill should be left in the form in which they brought it forward. The right hon. Gentleman did not deal with the matter at all. He merely said that there was some sort of arrangement on the Home Secretary's speech. I submit that it would be very unwise to accept an Amendment on ten minutes' or a quarter of an hour's notice curtailing the powers of the Government in a way in which the whole House wishes them to exercise them. If the Government do not wish to exercise them, then no harm is done. The Solicitor-General said that it was not a convenient way of dealing with it. I am not suggesting that it is, but this second Bill has not yet come before us. Hundreds of things may happen to cause delay. We may not have the other Bill for a month, and in case of emergency this might be better than nothing. For that reason I do very strongly urge upon the Government not to press this Amendment.

My hon. and learned Friend does not quite understand that we are under an honourable obligation to allow an Amendment of this sort to go through. Supposing you had a German carrying on business solely in Canada, and it was an absolute necessity in the interests of Canada that that German should carry on his business, would it not be an improper thing to put him on the black list? Would it not be an interference with the jurisdiction of Canada, and might it not involve us in this country in some difficulties which we would rather avoid?

My hon. and learned Friend says that we should not do it, but it is not well for us to pass Acts of Parliament which we are not going to carry out.

I think there is great fear that this Act of Parliament will not be carried out if you offer such an inducement as this to a broker with a capital of, perhaps, £10 to cross the border from America into Canada. You have no power whatever to stop any resident in this country from trading with him. In spite of the confidence of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, I am convinced that it is a very real danger. You get persons who are mere brokers. They are really agents of firms whom you would black list in foreign countries. These firms appoint a dozen agents to go to our Colonies in order to undermine our legislation, and you cannot get at them unless you can establish that they are acting for firms whom you believe ought to be on the black list in foreign countries. I do not press this, but I do think the Government are a little too confident on the point.

Words proposed there inserted.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "or enemy association."

I move this Amendment, not with the idea of striking the words out, but in order to ask some representative of the Government if it is possible to give to the Committee any indication how extensive these words are meant to be. They are difficult, but the matter with which the Government has to deal is difficult. I cannot suggest better words myself, but I should like to hear some explanation from the Government.

These words, "by reason of the enemy nationality or the enemy association of such persons, or bodies of persons," are only descriptive. They do not really limit, except indirectly, the power of His Majesty to put people on the black list. They are rather indications of the way in which it is the intention to use the Bill. "Wherever, by reason of enemy nationality, or enemy association of such person, or bodies of persons, it appears to His Majesty expedient so to do." That is an indication merely of the manner in which this Act is to be carried into effect. I quite agree that the words "enemy association" are very wide words. They were intended to be so. We have mainly in our minds the cases we have to put on our list of enemy firms, firms of enemy nationality, which may transfer their business to a neutral—it may be purely a man of straw—but a neutral, who is not an enemy firm, and we want some words to cover such cases as that. It is not easy to devise such words, but we think that "enemy association"—that is working with the enemy —would cover such cases, and include not only a person of enemy nationality, but anyone through whom he was really carrying on his business. That is the kind of case we have in mind. There were other cases where, in point of fact, a firm, though not mainly of enemy nationality, was really working in the interests of the enemy. We desire to stop such cases as that, and it was thought that these words, by reason of their vagueness, were quite proper words for that purpose.

I wish the Noble Lord had given us a little clearer indication. I know he wished to be vague, but I do think he should have indicated a little more fully what "enemy association" really means. I am very much afraid that these words, and the obvious language of the Bill, will give rise to a large number of attacks by trade rivals upon persons who, in times of peace, associated with Germans, or persons with German names, and possibly upon people of English descent, who, having some German name, may be told that the words "enemy association" cover them. I would take one case—I could multiply the number— which was actually brought to my attention quite recently—since the War commenced. It is the case of a firm in India, a firm of very old standing. One of the names in that firm was a German name. For several years the capital of the firm has been something like £100,000, and until recently it was entirely British capital. But a short time ago a young man, who had been a German clerk, was taken into partnership and brought into the business £1,000. The firm was still overwhelmingly British. No doubt the new partner may have sent his profits home to Germany. The firm had undoubtedly an enemy association, although it was pre-eminently British. The other partners bought out the shares of the German partner, and now the firm is again a purely British concern. But the point I have in my mind is this: the firm recently had German associations, and until the beginning of the War it was actually sending part of its profits to Germany. I do not want that firm to be penalised by reason of that, and to be held out to the Government as one with enemy associations. I do not want it to have to make representations to the Foreign Office, or elsewhere, that it ought not to be put on the black list. But the very facts which I have cited might, at some future time, be brought out by a trade rival, and there are many people quite capable of doing that in this country—they are not all such gentlemen as we are here—and I really, therefore, hope that great care will be taken to insure that no injustice is done, and that, from the start, no suspicion will be allowed to be thrown on genuine British firms by reason of some remote enemy association.

9.0 P.M.

I quite understand that the words are vague, and that that is what the Noble Lord intended. There are two points: the first is "enemy nationality," and the second is "enemy association." I understand "enemy nationality" to mean what a company is, while "enemy association" means what a company does, and between them these cover all the points. But suppose you have the case of a German firm which, directly this Bill is passed and it is put on the black list by the Noble Lord, converts its business into a company incorporated under the law of a neutral nation. I take it that these words "enemy association" are intended by the Noble Lord to cover such a case. I rather differ from the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King). I am not so much afraid of companies or firms being black listed wrongly. I am rather afraid of their not being black listed, and, therefore, the more vague the words are the more satisfied I shall be. Surely we can leave it to the authorities to see that no injustice is done because an infinitesimal part of a company's shares have been held by Germans. I am sure the Noble Lord, and those who will be responsible for the working of the Act, will deal fairly and squarely with all such cases. I, therefore, support these words, because they are wide.

It rather surprised me that the Noble Lord hold the words do not constitute in effect "conditions precedent." I can quite see that they are capable of a double construction. To my mind they do constitute conditions precedent, as, unless it can be shown that a firm are of enemy nationality, or enemy association, the Government could not act. Would it be possible for the Government, in order to make it much clearer, to consider the desirability of adding the words "or otherwise," so that they would read, "wherever, by reason of the enemy nationality, or enemy association, such person, or bodies of persons, or otherwise, it appears," etc. I throw out that suggestion. It would widen the powers of the Bill, and clearly indicate that these words do not purport to constitute conditions precedent.

I admit it is very important that, in seeking to destroy the enemy, we should not injure British trade. We have had months and months of war, and if we are to carry it through to a successful conclusion it is absolutely essential we should keep up our British trade. In my view this Bill must be carried out with the greatest possible desire not to do any injury to British trade. I quite agree with my right hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Ellis Griffith) that there would be no public advantage in going out with a tomahawk. Nothing is further from our thoughts than a desire to injure British trade.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to add the words "and a complete list of such persons or bodies of persons shall from time to time be published in the 'London Gazette.'"

My reason for moving this Amendment is that it gives notice to traders of the persons who are on the black list. I am quite aware that Proclamations are, as a rule, published in the "London Gazette," and that it is anticipated that a black list of persons may be added later by Order in Council. It would be more satisfactory to the traders if, instead of looking through a whole list of Orders in Council or Proclamations, they should be able, from time to time, by looking at the "London Gazette" to see what firms or companies are on the black list. I am sorry I did not put this Amendment on the Paper. If the Noble Lord is not prepared to accept it at once, perhaps he will consider it at a later stage, either in this House or in another place, and get proper words put in.

I hope the Noble Lord will not give a final answer on this point until he has had more time to consider it, which he no doubt will have between now and the Report stage. I agree with the object of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Butcher), which I understand is to make the information accessible as simply as possible to people who are likely to be interested in this matter in this country, namely, the manufacturers and traders. I am afraid, however, that very few of them read the "London Gazette." I understand that its circulation is probably not over 1,000. Of course, it would be ridiculous to make all these people buy a paper of that kind which would be of no special interest to them. What I should like to see is that if anybody desires this information he could be supplied with it by writing to the Foreign Office or the Board of Trade. That would be much more satisfactory. Unless something of the kind is done newspapers will not take the responsibility of copying the information from the "London Gazette," because they would probably lay themselves open to an action for libel in the event of the statement being made in a particular way. I would ask the Noble Lord to take time to consider the matter and not in any way to bind himself.

I would ask the Noble Lord whether he will consider the advisability of sending copies of the Proclamations to Consuls abroad whenever they affect firms resident in the Consular district? In South America, for instance, there are a great many British firms carrying on business through their representatives and their clerks. These people may buy from German firms, perhaps through brokers, without knowing who are the people from whom they buy. When the goods come over it might be said that they have been bought from a German house and that the purchasers were liable under the Act.

I have a case in my mind where each person who imports foreign material must have a licence to take in the material. Would it not be better to inform such a person that a person from whom he is buying is on the black list? It would be a great hardship if persons should import foreign raw material and then find that the persons who exported it, say from Holland, are upon the black list of the Board of Trade —that is to say, that the Board of Trade have discovered that these men are more or less smugglers, and have done a very great injury to our own trade, and they will not allow any goods coming from those firms to be imported. In such a case the Foreign Office or the Board of Trade ought to inform the English firm at once that such a firm is on the black list. I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) as to publication in the "London Gazette." Take the case of a city like York. How many people in York take in the "London Gazette"? You have merchants in York and in the North of England who are bound to import raw material from abroad, but who never see the "London Gazette." It is very essential that before they obtain the licence they ought to know whether or not the firms from whom they are importing are on the black list.

I do not feel very much drawn to the proposal of my hon. and learned Friend, because I do not think publication in the "London Gazette" would be the best way of accomplishing his object. I shall be very glad to consider it further between this and the next stage, but I do not think it is the best plan. We hope to administer this Bill in concert and consultation with those who are interested in the trade in the various districts to which the Bill will be applied. We propose to hold consultations with, and do everything we can to meet, the legitimate wishes of legitimate traders in this country. That really is the proper way to deal with 'the matter. We shall, of course, carry out the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Dalziel); we shall have a list which would be available to anyone who wished to get it. I am equally certain that we shall carry out the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shirley Benn) that Consuls and diplomatic representatives generally should be asked to co-operate, as indeed they must, in the working of this proposal, and that they will be furnished with all the information at our disposal.

After that statement from the Noble Lord, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), to leave out the word "substituted" ["there were substituted references to trading with such persons"], and to insert instead thereof the word "included."

If the word "substituted" is put in there it means that the Proclamation, which already prevents a person from dealing with enemies in an enemy country, would be limited by saying that the prohibition is only directed against enemies in neutral countries or enemies in some place outside enemy territory. What I want to be sure of is that the Trading with the Enemy Acts shall apply as if persons and bodies of persons who are mentioned in this Bill were included in the Proclamation. I think that is the proper drafting, and I suggest it to my Noble Friend.

I cannot help thinking my hon. and learned Friend is really harking back to his old Amendment. Surely the proper word is "substitute." It is not right to say you are to include these cases in the cases already provided for, but you are to substitute for the application to other cases application to these cases. I do not think the matter is of very great importance, but I think this has been drafted in accordance with the ordinary way in which Clauses of this kind are drafted.

It is only to get the drafting right, and if my Noble Friend is satisfied that the drafting is right as it stands, I say nothing more.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, at the end of the Sub-section, to add the words, "and as if Clause 6 of the Trading with the Enemy Proclamation (No. 2) were omitted from that Proclamation."

The Proclamation, which was passed on 9th September, 1914, contained one very extraordinary provision, namely, Clause 6. The general effect of the Proclamation was to prohibit trading with the enemy. The enemy was defined as persons of whatever nationality resident or carrying on business in an enemy country, but there was a very strange exception made from that prohibition. There was a proviso that, where an enemy has a branch situated in British Allied or neutral territory, not being neutral territory in Europe, transactions with or by that branch are not to be treated as transactions with or by an enemy. I have asked a great many friends of mine who are supposed to know something about the matter why that exception was ever put into the Proclamation, and why, because a German living, let us say, in Berlin, has a branch, say, in America or in this country, it should not be a breach of Trading with the Enemy Regulations to trade with that branch. I have never known any reason given, and I think the Government themselves have felt that that was a somewhat unwise exception to put into the Proclamation, because they have already amended paragraph 6 of that Proclamation twice and have been trying to make sense of it, and they have not succeeded yet. The Proclamation enables persons in this country to trade with, let us say, Germans who are living in Berlin if those Germans can only say they have a branch in the United States. That means that persons in this country can sell goods to that branch and can also buy goods from it, and in that way the German living in his own country—I have known cases; I am not talking quite without the book—is able by means of this Clause in the Proclamation to make very large profits by trading with firms in this country. See what they can do with these profits! These Germans have their branches ex hypothesi in the United States which can send their profits straight to Berlin, or, if they prefer it, keep them in the United States and establish a credit there for Germans which adds to the resources of Germany in carrying on the War. I think my Noble Friend will find himself somewhat hampered in carrying out the objects of the Bill if this Clause remains in the Proclamation. It is quite true you may say that the Proclamation cannot of itself either make the law or alter the law, and I think, broadly speaking, that is true. We know there was an old controversy on the subject in the sixteenth century, and earlier than that, when the Crown tried by Proclamation to make us alter the laws, and the House of Commons and other persons interested succeeded in curbing the power of the Crown. But that is not quite the case here, because this Proclamation has, I think, by virtue of the first Trading with the Enemy Act, got the force of law, and therefore you may find two results if you leave the Clause in the Proclamation. In the first place you may find a very misleading warning or statement issued to traders, and in the second place you may find something on the face of the Proclamation which would be directly contrary to one of the Proclamations which my Noble Friend may issue under this. Bill. Therefore, by cutting this paragraph out of the Proclamation, you would be effecting a result which is most desirable in itself—cutting out what ought never to have been put into the Proclamation, and freeing my Noble Friend's hand for the purpose of successfully carrying out the objects of the Bill.

Unfortunately I have not the words of the Proclamation before me, but, taking my hon. and learned Friend's account of it, I should imagine they were quite consistent with the purpose of this Bill, therefore, no doubt they would not apply to this Bill at all. There are a good many provisions of the Trading with the Enemy Act which would not apply to this Bill at all, provisions, for instance, for appointing a custodian for a firm. It would be practically impossible to appoint a custodian for a firm trading in South America. Obviously it could not apply at all, so we have put in words giving ourselves power to make exceptions and adaptations wherever necessary, and I think it is better to leave it in that way rather than single out a particular provision of one Proclamation under the Trading with the Enemy Act and abolish it, which would lead at any rate to the suggestion that all the other Proclamations were applied to this Bill. I think it would be better not to insert these words but to leave the adaptation of these Orders in Council to the authority which prepares them. I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will not press his Amendment.

If the Noble Lord assures me that this Proclamation or the objectionable Clause in it can be excised by Order in Council, I do not press my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

This Clause deals with the question of trading with the enemy and I want to bring forward a point as to the position of those merchants and traders who have entered into contracts in a perfectly bonâ fide manner with firms in neutral countries and such firms may under the terms of this Bill be blacklisted. In some parts of the world, unhappily, it is only possible to do British business with firms either of enemy origin or of enemy associations. Therefore, if merchants in England wish to trade, they are bound to trade with such firms, and the business has been a perfectly legal and proper business. In some cases it has been, perhaps, represented to firms that it would be better not to trade with such-and-such a firm in a neutral country. If in the event of such representation having been made either by the Board of Trade, the Foreign Office or the Parliamentary Council of the Treasury, I would have no sympathy with any trader who has, after such a warning, traded with a firm of that kind. We have an analogous case in regard to the point I am raising in what has happened in Shanghai. In the early part of the War it was perfectly legitimate to trade with Germans in Shanghai. That was done by a certain number of British traders during the months up to about December last. Then came a warning from the Board of Trade stating that it was very undesirable for British traders to trade in Shanghai and other places with firms of enemy association, although it was not made illegal to trade with them. Subsequently a Proclamation was issued relating to the matter, and at the time the Proclamation was issued contracts were in existence which dated to a period antecedent to the warning issued by the Board of Trade. When it was definitely laid down that no further shipments were to be made, arrangements were made by the Board of Trade by which they would take into consideration, and indeed did take these facts into consideration, and there were large shipments in regard to contracts which had been entered into prior to the warning in December, 1914.

Will the Noble Lord give an assurance that contracts which have been entered into in a perfectly bonâ fide legal manner with firms in neutral territory who may now become, from information received, black-listed firms will receive some consideration, and that the merchants will be allowed some consideration in regard to the execution of those contracts? I do not put the matter very high, but I do want to definitely ask him whether traders who have entered into contracts in a perfectly honest and legitimate manner will have some fair consideration, if from information which has come to the knowledge of the Foreign Office, but which may not be and is not within the knowledge of the traders, such contracts are put an end to. If he can give an assurance that such contracts will be treated on their merits I think he will be dealing with the matter in a way which is perfectly satisfactory.

I desire to emphasise the point which has been so ably put by the hon. Member for Manchester. He brought this up at an earlier stage of the Bill, and I put a question to the Solicitor-General in regard to it. It is a most important point for every Member of this House who represents a mercantile community. These merchants make contracts with individuals who, in their estimation, are perfectly worthy to be dealt with, but after the contracts are made these men are black-listed. What is to be the position of these merchants under this Act? They will have prepared the goods and they will have made arrangements to fulfil the contracts, and then they find that the individual to whom they are sending them is black-listed. We ought to have some assurance from the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs as to how these merchants will be treated in the Proclamation. When I asked the Solicitor-General a question on that point he replied that he could not be expected to answer these conundrums. It is a very serious matter for the mercantile community whom we are here to represent. There is another point in regard to the Proclamation which was not touched upon by the hon. Member for Manchester, but on which I have no doubt he is in agreement with me. If the contracts are cancelled by Proclamation, and if some compensation is given to these merchants, well and good; but if the contract is only dealt with in the form of suspension, what is to be the position of these merchants after the War is over? Are the black-listed firms to be able to say to these merchants, "Fulfil your contracts now. The contract has been suspended during the War and we want the stuff." Are these black-listed men, after they have passed from the black list when peace arrives, to be in a position to say to the mercantile community with whom they have contracts, "Deliver your stuff now; fulfil your contract." It is a most serious matter, and the merchants ought to have some assurance that the Proclamation will give them justice.

It is quite possible for His Majesty in Council to put in the Proclamation a clause that the contract was illegal and that will absolve the merchant.

If by the Proclamation the import or export of certain goods is made illegal, that justifies the merchant in cancelling the contract. I have looked through the Proclamation having regard to the point raised by the hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Butcher), and I find that clause 6 of Proclamation No. 2 has been repealed by a subsequent Proclamation, which makes trading with branches of the enemy in neutral countries illegal. Therefore, that ought to satisfy the hon. and learned Member for York.

I am with my two hon. Friends (Mr. Needham and Mr. Watt) in asking that the position should be made definite, but I am entirely against them in coming here and begging for favours for men who have been so misguided and so unpatriotic as to place business with Germans when they could have done it very well with our own people. There is any amount of business being done both in Manchester and in Glasgow—I speak of something know—which could very well have been done by Britishers, but this trade has been deliberately given to Germans in the hope of currying favour with them after the War. I am sure my hon. Friends do not wish to represent that class of trader. At the same time they are asking for a concession which, unless it is carefully safeguarded, would benefit such people. That is why I utter this warning. I hope the Government will not be too weak on this question, particularly when they deal with Shanghai. The hon. Member for Manchester—a district in which I formerly had some interest—represents a suburban part of Manchester which contains the leading Nonconformist places of worship rather than the business houses, and he mentions Shanghai. What are the facts with regard to Shanghai? These very men with whom you have been trading held rejoicings, gave dinners, and indulged in jollifications at Shanghai on the occasion of the sinking of the "Lusitania." My hon. Friend cannot deny it. After that event, when those German merchants who have these delightful contracts made such an exhibition of themselves, and after the bombardment of Scarborough and such things, I say we must be careful, and when I hear of compensation I say, how could anyone talk about such things, when we are discussing retrenchment, as compensating anybody who has been trading with Germans during the last few months. There is something to be said for persons who have contracts, but for people who have gone on trading with our enemies—men of vicious intent in this country, and men who rejoice when our women and children are murdered—for a year or sixteen months, I have no sympathy whatever. I venture to hope that the Government will not concede much to these people.

I think there is a great deal in what was said by the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Watt) and the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Needham), but I should like to raise another point. With all due deference to those Gentlemen, I think what we ought to consider in these matters is the employment of our own people during the War, and particularly after the War. I believe that before the War it was the practice of the English firms, whether they sold goods to Germans or not, to sell where they could. I should like to point out to my hon. Friends this fact. We must find a market—and I appeal to the Noble Lord who is in charge of the Bill—for at least £50,000,000 of iron and steel in foreign and neutral countries. The census of production for 1907, if my memory serves me right, shows this: That we produce £120,000,000 worth of iron and steel. We use in this country only £70,000,000, and we must find a market for something like £50,000,000. That is a very important factor. If you destroy recklessly that important market, then what will become of the workmen employed in these large industries? It is all very well to talk about Shanghai, and all those places, but what has to be considered is the fact that you have a very large number of working men dependent upon this export trade. Take cotton.

It is a very important question. We export £120,000,000 worth of cotton; we are bound to find a market for that. I quite agree that where it is possible, without injuring our trade, you should restrict dealing with aliens, but what I want the Government to do is to be cautious, and to look round rather than destroy the trade. If in Lancashire you destroyed the cotton trade you would have more or less a famine, and it would be a very serious matter. Take every part of our country. Take the West Riding, which is a woollen manufacturing district. We exported every year before the War about £38,000,000 worth of woollens; are you going to destroy that trade recklessly? Are you going to destroy engineering, where we export about another £36,000,000 to £38,000,000 worth. The vast number of engineering works we have are dependent upon our export trade.

I am speaking of the pre-war period, but our export trade now will amount to millions upon millions of pounds. Last month I believe it reached from £35,000,000 to £36,000,000.

Partly machinery. I am afraid the hon. Member does not study these statistics.

I say they are, and last month we exported between £35,000,000 and £36,000,000 worth of different goods, quite apart from what we exported in munitions to France and the other countries, which are not considered or reckoned in our exports. I say to the Noble Lord in charge of this measure that it is a very important one. I believe a very large number of these firms ought to be upon the black list because they are not trading honestly with this country; but on the other hand, if you are going to maintain unemployment in the country, and to maintain our exports to pay for the excess of imports we are now compelled to take, Members of this House should not consider this matter in the light-hearted way in which they are discussing it. It is a very, very important matter, and you might destroy very large industries both of iron and steel, which are those particularly in the district in which I live, and of which I am speaking now. With the large engineering works which depend almost entirely upon their export trade—

I know what I am speaking about in this respect and our large cotton trade, our large woollen trade, and the whole vast trade of this country, to the extent of about £550,000,000 before the War, I say it is essential that we should try, while maintaining our position, to safeguard this trade and not treat it in a light-hearted manner.

As this is a Board of Trade matter, perhaps I may say what the Board of Trade actually thinks of it, because I think it will mainly lie with the Board of Trade to deal with this aspect of the question. I welcome the speeches made from both sides of the House, if only from this point of view, that they illustrate very clearly what very great difficulties there are. When hon. Members come to criticise us for administering the Act, they will doubtless bear in mind the criticisms made today.

I think the hon. Member will realise that there is more than one point of view, and that we must sometimes be dependent on the knowledge of other people. But we have to look at this from one point of view, and one only.

Yes, and that is the national interest. Every one of the considerations which have been raised in the last two or three speeches that have been made show that there are different points of view from which you must find out what is the national interest, and what you have to do in each case. All these kind of considerations which have just been urged were the considerations which drove the Government to use this particular form of black list, because if you attempt to have definite concrete legislalation by which you are going to define who, in every part of the world, is to be treated as an enemy, and take it to a Court of law, you come to so many conflicting considerations that you have great difficulty in administration. Considering that, we find that the only way of dealing with them is that in each individual case where we know a firm is acting in the enemy interests or has enemy associations we should take action. As the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) has already said, we do not desire for a moment to ignore the interests of British traders. We have to take into consideration first of all the advantage which the enemy is deriving from the trade which his firm is carrying on. From that point of view we desire to act, but we have also to look at it from the point of view of the British nation and the advantage which the British firm is deriving from the trading. So far as the concrete point is concerned, I cannot give any definite undertaking about any contract entered into before the date of the Proclamation, and the decision in each case will be entirely on its merits, with due regard to the national interests. In carrying out the Proclamation we have evidence that there is no desire on the part of British firms to carry on trading with the enemy. As to compensation, I can hold out no hope whatever to the House. I am perfectly certain that British firms will acquiesce in what we are doing one way or the other, because in what we are doing we are making a very much greater gain from the point of view of advancing our national cause. It is merely from that point of view that the matter has to be approached by the Board of Trade, and I do not think that any one of the considerations put forward by hon. Members will be disregarded, and all we can try and do is to administer this Act, under the very great difficulties we shall have to encounter, with due regard to all the points that have been so ably put forward.

I would not have risen but for the speech of the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. J. Samuel). I have been connected for many years of my life with the engineering and steel trade. The hon. Gentleman, I believe, was connected with it in reference to retail prices in stores. He tells us that we in London know nothing about the iron and steel trade. If he knew a hundredth part of what we know about the business of engineering and steel trade he might be in a position to lecture us. But the hon. Gentleman knows so little of what he has talked about that he is not in a position to speak on the subject. In all parts of the country firms cannot deal with anything like the orders placed with them, and their difficulty is to produce even the requirements of the Government. The hon. Member many years ago, in South Wales, was connected with the working of pig iron.

In some part of the world. I do not know where, but he has not been connected with it for twenty years. The hon. Member has no knowledge of what the trade is to-day, nor has he any connection with it, and when he says that we in London do not know what we are talking about, and when all his knowledge of the trade was acquired twenty years ago, and he has had no association with the iron and steel trade since, he at least is not in a position to tell the Board of Trade what they ought to do. The hon. Member purported to give to the House facts which were not facts at all. His argument was directed to one purpose only, that in order to keep up our export trade we are to start trading with the enemy. [An HON MEMBER: "NO, no!"] This is a Bill to prevent trading with the enemy, and the only purport of the argument of the hon. Member for Stockton was to enlarge the powers under which traders might extend their export trade regardless of consequences; otherwise, the argument of the hon. Member falls to the ground. Let us see what really happens in regard to this warning which was issued by the Board of Trade. Last year a warning was issued to the traders of this country strongly urging firms to take the utmost precaution with whom they did trade. Consequently business firms, and firms with which I am associated, following the direction of the Board of Trade, have taken the utmost care not to trade with any firm where there was the slightest question whatsoever that such firm was directly or indirectly associated with the enemy. Then the hon. Member for Stockton comes down and says he represents a mercantile constituency, and that his constituents have not only been trading with Germans, but that they now want compensation after having traded with the enemy.

An HON. MEMBER: They are not Germans; they are neutrals.

If they are of German origin they are of German association, and that brings them within the scope of this Bill. I trust, therefore, that the Board of Trade and the Foreign Office, when they come to administer the Act, will pay no regard whatever to people who, since December last, notwithstanding the warning which was issued, have continued to trade with the enemy. I am delighted to hear from the Under-Secretary that any case of that kind will be considered. I want to thank the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs (Lord Robert Cecil) for the manner in which he has conducted this Bill. I have been very quiet about it. The Noble Lord has been so very considerate and polite and has shown such very good humour, that I hope the little storm in a teapot which we had at the commencement will be buried in oblivion and forgotten. I am sure the House will agree with me in expressing the hope that the Noble Lord will conduct many more Bills through this House, and that they will have as speedy a passage as in the case of this particular Bill, and I am certain that we all feel, in this respect, that he has gained the good will and good feeling of the whole House.

I hope, after the discussion we have had, we shall hear no more at any future stage of this Bill of the suggestion of departing from the procedure under the Proclamation to forbid trading with the enemy or those associated with him. I think we may all agree that the points brought forward by the two hon. Members who spoke first clearly show that there must be some discretion vested in some one as to what firms will come under the Proclamation. Whoever puts in force this Proclamation—it will be the Foreign Office, I suppose—will have to determine whether or not a firm is trading with the enemy or a firm in association with the enemy. It would have been disastrous if it had been necessary to bring a point of that kind before the Courts of Law, involving the accumulation of evidence and expenditure of time and money in trying to defeat a measure which we want to put into operation at once. The next thing which will have to be taken into consideration is the point of view of the trader here, whom we are going to forbid trading with a person whose name, though he is in a neutral country, is put in the black list. You have got to take into consideration the exports of the country, and the employment afforded by the particular factory whose trading you are going to stop. Thirdly, you have got to take into consideration injustice to the trader whom you are going to forbid to carry on a contract which he has already entered into. All those things have got to be considered by the Department upon whose advice those Proclamations have got to be issued, but the one thing which, of course, will underlie their decision throughout will be whether or not the Proclamation should be issued in the public interest.

I welcome the statement to that effect from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade. His statement was one such as you would, expect from him. The points mentioned emphasise conclusively the fact that the discretion to make those Proclamations must be left to the Foreign Office and the people who know the facts, and that you cannot have a law with a schedule giving a list of those with whom you forbid trade in the future. I am glad to hear, also, that there is no compensation to be given. What we have got to think of is the national safety, and that only, and when we are passing a Bill of this kind we must have the courage of our convictions. If individuals have to put up with what they think is a hardship they have the consolation of knowing that they are contributing to the national safety and the national interest. Therefore I am glad of this procedure by Proclamation. I join in what has been said by the hon. Baronet (Sir A. Markham). I think on all sides of the House we owe a great debt of gratitude to the Noble Lord the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs for the way in which he has piloted this Bill through rather dangerous shoals. I thank him for the courtesy and temper that he has shown throughout.

In discussing this Amendment we have had very different points of view expressed by different Members. I venture to think that the real crucial point that affects this Amendment has never been referred to by any hon. Member. The hon. Baronet (Sir A. Markham) said that the purpose of these Bills, and particularly this Amendment, rests on the question as to whether the people abroad with whom we are trading are of enemy extraction. The whole purpose of these Bills and Acts is to stop trade which would otherwise, if it is allowed to continue, strengthen firms abroad, and indirectly, therefore, strengthen our enemy and prolong the War. That, I understand, is the whole purpose of these Bills. There are many firms in this country trading with people abroad, especially in South America, who are actually connected with our enemies, but if you stopped the trade between firms in this country and those agents, we will say in South America, and you know at the same time when you have done it that those agents will get from the United States the goods they require instead of getting them from us, you are doing nothing whatever by this Act to protect your national interests. In those cases I submit that the Board of Trade must never forget that. To my knowledge the Board of Trade have had this very case submitted to them. I have been associated in a case in which one has asked them frankly, ought we to continue to trade or not, and the right hon. Gentleman I am sure knows that the Board of Trade have in a guarded manner even recommended firms to do so, because they have been satisfied that if they stop that trade it would not serve the national interest one iota.

10.0 P.M.

I think it is regrettable that a certain amount of heat has been introduced into this Debate, and I think it was quite unnecessary. There may be injustice done in the carrying out of this Act, but it is sometimes best to do an injustice in order that greater justice may be done. Undoubtedly some of my hon. Friends may have particular cases in mind where injustice might be done. Speaking generally, patriotic Britons who are supplying the enemy to-day know they are supplying them. The head of the firm knows it, and they are getting nervous that they are going to be found out. There may be some respectable firms who may be supplying old customers with no knowledge that the supplies are going to Germany, but no one doubts that those who are supplying the enemy know by the increase in the orders, for example, and from the alteration of the supplies which are asked for, and they know perfectly well where the markets are and where the high profits are to be made. Many of them, I say it for shame, take the risk of supplying the goods without inquiring too much where the ultimate destination is. I am sure my hon. Friends will agree with that. We know it too well. Take the case of Chili. In Chili at the present moment there are some of our British firms who will not deal with anybody else but Germans. I had the facts and particulars given to me in this House and to this day I am told they do not inquire too much. We had the action taken with regard to a Consul, and that was only done after a meeting of the British Colony had entered a protest.

Speaking generally, we must stop our supplies going to the enemy if we are ever going to end this War. If you do not do it, or do not show more vigour than we are showing now, I confess I do not think we will ever win, or win within any reasonable time. We have lost such a lot of time that I think it is necessary to act with increased vigour. No one will tell us that a firm in this country which has been supplying someone in neutral countries with goods for the last eighteen months has not good reason to know where those goods are going. Those firms have the whole department of the Consular service, and can they not write to the British Consul, and can they not make inquiries? There is no honest British subject who has been sending large supplies but ought to have satisfied himself during the last eighteen months. It is the duty of those firms to themselves and to the State to spend money if necessary in order to find out the ultimate destination of the goods they are sending out. They ought to be held responsible after all this time. Therefore do not be afraid of erring on the side of too much action. These people are able to look after themselves. Act after eighteen months of delay in the interests of the country and discharge this Bill with vigour.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2.—(Short Title.)

This Act may be cited as the Trading with the Enemy (Extension) Act, 1915.

I beg to move to leave out the word "(Extension)," and to insert instead thereof the word "(Restriction)."

This is a drafting Amendment, but one to which I attach considerable importance. Anyone looking through Acts of Parliament to find those which restrict trading with the enemy would never suspect that this was one under this title. I dare say it is a draftsman's point. If it said "Extension of Restriction of Trading with the Enemy" one could understand it, but as it is people will think it is one of the jokes of the House of Commons. If the Noble Lord prefers "Extension of Restriction" I do not mind, but I want something in the title to show exactly what the Bill is about.

I do not think that this is a matter of vital importance. I really have some difficulty in making up my mind whether it is better to describe the Bill as an extension of the powers for dealing with trading with the enemy, or as a restriction of trading with the enemy. It does not seem to me to make much difference.

I should think that would do. My difficulty is that I am not quite sure how a previous Act was described. I will look it up.

Why not "Extension of Restriction"? If the title said anything about powers, "Extension" would do.

I hope that the Noble Lord will not accept the Amendment. The word "Extension" is best for the title.

I think we might call it "Trading with the Enemy (Extension of Powers) Act."

I will ask leave to withdraw the Amendment, and to move it in that form.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I do not think this is a good Amendment at all. It is altogether wrong. There is no word "Powers" in the long title. I really wonder that, having conducted the Debate so admirably and successfully, the Noble Lord should have now accepted a perfectly senseless Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand, part of the Bill.

Bill reported; as amended, considered; read the third time, and passed.

House of Commons (Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms)

Ordered, "That Mr. Mooney be a member of the House of Commons (Kitchen, and Refreshment Rooms) Select Committee."—[ Mr. Russell Rea. ]

Midwives (Scotland) Bill

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.—[ Mr. McKinnon Wood. ]

Lords Amendments accordingly considered.

CLAUSE 6.—(Provisions as to Suspensions.)

(1) The power of the Board to frame rules defining the conditions under which midwives may be suspended from practice shall include a power of framing rules—

( a ) authorising the Board to suspend a midwife from practice for such period as the Board think fit, in lieu of removing her name from the roll, and to suspend from practice until the case has been decided, and (in the case of an appeal) until the appeal has been decided, any midwife accused before the Board of disobeying rules or regulations or of other misconduct;

( b ) authorising the local supervising authority to suspend from practice

Lords Amendment: In paragraph ( a ) leave out the words "for such period as the Board think fit."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

I desire to support this Amendment. This is a most extraordinary Clause, and I am surprised that my right hon. Friend allowed it to pass this House. Under the Clause these women, whenever they are accused of disobeying the rules or regulations made by the Board, are to be suspended from the pursuit of their practice. Before these words were omitted it was for such a period as that same Board might think fit, upon a single charge, to absolutely deprive these poor women of their means of livelihood—the method by which they have kept themselves in bread-and-butter was to be taken from them. That is the suspension of the great principle of justice which is held both in England and, I am thankful to say, in Scotland that an accused person should be considered guilty until that person has been proved to be guilty. In this particular instance the Board were to be given the power to deprive the person of her means of livelihood until the charge was settled one way or the other, and she was proved to be guilty or the reverse. It was a very, very drastic Clause, and I am glad to say it has been improved by the Lords Amendment.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 13.—(Fees and Expenses.)

There shall be payable by every woman presenting herself for examination or certificate such fee as the Board may, with the approval of the Privy Council, from time to time determine, such fee not to exceed the sum of one guinea. All such fees paid by midwives in practice at the passing of this Act and by candidates for examination shall be paid to the Board. The Board shall devote such fees to the payment of expenses connected with the examination and certificate and to the general expenses of the Board. The Board shall, as soon as practicable after the thirty-first day of December in each year, publish a financial statement made up to that date, and showing the receipts and expenditure, including liabilities, of the Board, during the year, which statement shall be certified as correct by an accountant who shall be a member of one of the societies of chartered accountants in Scotland or a member practising in Scotland of the Society of Incorporated Accountants and Auditors. The Board shall submit a copy of such statement to the Privy Council, and, if the statement shows any balance against the Board and such balance is approved by the Privy Council, whose approval shall be binding and conclusive as to the amount of the balance to be apportioned, the Board may apportion such balance between the local supervising authorities in proportion to the populations of their districts as ascertained at the last preceding Census. The Board may issue precepts to the local supervising authorities for the amounts so respectively apportioned to them. The local supervising authorities shall within six months after the receipt of such precepts, or such longer period as may be agreed with the Board, pay to the Board the amounts so payable by them respectively.

Lords Amendment: Leave out the words "who shall be a member of one of the societies of chartered accountants in Scotland or a member practising in Scotland of the Society of Incorporated Accountants and Auditors," and insert instead thereof the words "practising in Scotland, to be appointed annually by the Secretary for Scotland."

After this Bill left this House it was represented to me that there were other societies of accountants that were worthy of consideration. Therefore more general words were adopted. The Amendment makes it plain that the auditor will not be appointed by the Board, but by the Secretary for Scotland, who has a choice of qualified accountants.

Lords Amendment agreed to.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Great Central Railway

Employment of Girls

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

I am sorry to have to trouble the House at this hour with what must, so far as numbers are concerned, seem a small matter. In reality it is not a small matter at all. It is a matter involving an important principle which I think the House is entitled to hear something about. The question has been fairly well ventilated so far as Members of the House are concerned. There is no necessity for me to-night to attempt in detail to go into this case, because both sides of the dispute have put their case in writing to the Members of this House. I would like, however, to draw attention to the fact that in the statement which is made by the general manager of the Great Central Railway it is practically, to all intents and purposes, admitted that so far as the company is concerned they do not take the view that the four typists who have been removed from one office to another had no right to belong to the Railway Clerks Association. In a statement which was issued it is said:

When this dispute arose an attempt was made, and I hoped it would succeed, to settle it without troubling the House of Commons with the matter. Two interviews have been held with the President of the Board of Trade, whom I regret to have to keep here at this late hour to deal with a matter of this kind, but no real satisfactory position has been arrived at. He has made to-day, in answer to a question which I put to him, an offer to refer what he calls the narrow question of fact to a tribunal—a barrister whom he will select—and, so far as that is concerned, if that narrow question of fact was all that was at issue, I should gladly have accepted the matter at once. No doubt, some Members of the House are in a difficulty as to what the position is, and, therefore, I am prepared to accept the offer of deciding the question of fact in the manner he prescribes, reserving to myself, and those for whom I speak, the right to challenge the question of principle upon any and every occasion when such an opportunity will occur. I have felt it necessary to say this because, although there is a war on, and although we have no desire in any shape or form that there should be any dispute with railway companies, or anyone else, we do feel that, whether this rule was or was not in existence before the War, where it is to be put into operation against poor girls earning from 14s. to 18s. a week, it is a challenge to the whole principle of trade union combination, and, war or no war, we cannot permit such a challenge to be made without accepting on the very first opportunity.

I should like to add a few words in support of the protest which has been made by the hon. Member for Stock-port (Mr. Wardle) against this attack upon the rights of trade unions. I have received a number of letters from my own Constituency especially upon this subject, and I should like to say that one or two of my Constituents whom I know personally as men of moderation, judgment, patriotism, and good sense, have written to me upon this subject. I was, therefore, quite convinced that there was a good case to be made out. I received only two days ago the statement of the other side, which is a document so vulgar, in such bad taste, and altogether so spiteful and ill-judged, that I am quite sure the gentleman who signs himself "Sam Fay," is on the wrong tack. I would like to read one paragraph, and I think it is sufficient to show the spirit. Men ought to be conciliatory to young women at this time, and should be doing everything they can to treat their employés in a proper spirit. I think the paragraph shows that a man who can use these words ought to be unanimously condemned in this House. After speaking of the fact, as he calls it, that it is only four female typists that are the subject of the discussion, when really it is the whole question whether trade union rights are to continue at this time, he says:—

"All this at the period of the greatest trouble in our national history, when the energy of every man and woman should be devoted to the art or practice of killing Germans."

A man who talks like that ought to go to the trenches himself instead of indulging in spiteful, malicious action against young women who are only doing their duty. It reminds me of a case before the justices at the Petty Sessions in my neighbourhood, when an old man was found on premises where he ought not to be at an hour when he ought to have been at rest, and he replied that he had two sons in the trenches fighting for the honour of England, and that he himself would have been ready to go if he had been thirty years younger, and consequently he thought it was a great-shame that he was brought before the Court at all. That is the sort of spirit in which Sam Fay addresses this House. He appeals to the patriotism of the hour to cover his mean and contemptible conduct. I hope we shall have a satisfactory reply from the President of the Board of Trade. The only fault I find with the speech of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle) is that he did not speak more strongly against the contemptible methods being employed against the women working on the Great Central Railway.

When this subject was first brought to my notice I had a very strong feeling, in fact I took very strong action, in protesting to the manager of the Great Central Railway in view of the fact that the company was taking action which I could only conclude was entirely opposed to principles which I for many years have always stood up for, and shall continue to stand for in the future, namely, that people who are employed, in whatever capacity, shall have the right of combination, and shall not be interfered with unnecessarily or without good reason by their employers. I agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken in thinking that the circular which the manager of this railway has sent to every hon. Member of this House was not in the best of taste. It did not make a good impression upon my mind, and I wrote a very strong letter of protest in answer to that circular, and to-day I have been informed—and I am speaking only because I am anxious that the House should have the real facts before them—that this company are not victimising or laying down rules that generally affect the girl clerks employed there, but only those who have recently been taken on. With the exception of some four or five or six cases I am told that nothing has been done by the company in any shape or form which could give rise to the protest which is being brought forward by the hon. Member for Stockport. I understand further that it has been the custom on this railway and on other railways for several years past that in the general manager's office, where these clerks have naturally to have knowledge of matters of privacy, dealing with pay, police returns and the general status and conditions of the employés throughout the whole of the line, that in that particular part it has not been a recognised or written law, but I understand it has always been privately recognised by those there employed, that since 1910 they need not be members of the association.

There is another point which bears upon this matter. In 1910 there was on this railway a serious breach of confidence on the part of a clerk in the general manager's office, and it was that event, inquired into by the association, which left this matter in abeyance without any written rule; but the few clerks employed in that particular Department were not supposed to belong to the association. I would like to know whether this complaint is confined to these very very few people in the general manager's office doing work of a confidential nature, or whether it applies more widely? That is the whole question at stake. I believe that there might be good reason why I should defend the Great Central Railway Company in asking the association, or coming to some arrangement with them, that people in special positions with special privileges and special knowledge of confidential matters should not be members of the association; but if it goes beyond that and affects clerks generally on this or any other railway, nothing will give me greater pleasure than to support the hon. Member and his colleagues in this or any other similar matter which they bring before the House.

In case the House may misunderstand the position it is very desirable that I should correct the misstatement—it was certainly not intended— made by the hon. Baronet (Sir R. Cooper). It is not the fact that membership of the Railway Clerks' Association was not possible to men in this department in which these four young women served. The fact is—I speak with complete authority and a full knowledge of things in the Railway Clerks' Association—that men serving in this particular branch are members of the association, and, really, if it is to be said that these young women were on confidential work, it would appear to me that confidence is cheaply bought at 14s. to 18s. per week. As a matter of fact, this constitutes nothing more or less than an attack during the period of the War upon rights which have been enjoyed by clerks in this particular department of the company's service. It may as well be faced and understood by this House, and I would that it could be realised how much trade unions as a whole have sacrificed by setting aside their own practices during the period of the War. Let the House understand that this is an attempt on the part of the manager of the Great Central Railway to take advantage of the War, not only to have set side ordinary trade-union practices, but to set up a new standard that in this particular department there shall be no trade-union rights for those employed. He desires, under the guise of the statement which he has issued, and the condemnation of which has been so well put by the hon. Members opposite, to set up during the period of the War a new standard which we shall not be allowed to go back upon when the War is over. This brings us really to the vital principle involved, which is an attack, veiled it is true, on the ordinary rights of trade-union combination enjoyed by employés of this type generally and enjoyed by the clerks in this department for years past.

I hope, with the two hon. Members opposite and with my hon. Friend, that the President of the Board of Trade will realise what is at stake. Trade unionists in the country generally are watching this case very carefully. They regard it as of a vital character. It is not merely a question of the transfer of four women from one department to another, but it is a veiled attack on the rights of trade-union combination in the offices of the railway company, and I trust he will give his answer accordingly.

This case had already absorbed a good deal of our attention before it was mentioned in the House of Commons, and I think it is only right that I should tell the House how far the negotiations have passed between the company and the Board of Trade. When it was first brought to my notice I naturally asked those who raised the question to give us full information as to the complaint which was made. The complaint, as I understand it, was this—that these four young women, who were working in the chief goods manager's office, and were doing typists' work, had been informed by the head of the office that if they were to remain members of the Railway Clerks' Association they would not be retained in that office, and would have to work in another, on the ground, so it was said, that the work they were engaged upon was of a confidential character, and that the confidential communications which passed through their hands had always been the deciding factor in the mind, not only of this company but of other railway companies, whether or not those who took part in it should be or should not be members of the association. This revived at once in my recollection a controversy in the year 1909 over the North-Eastern Railway when the point was raised in this House by those who represented the railway clerks that the North-Eastern Railway had been declaring as confidential work a great deal more work than those who represented the clerks in this House and those who worked with them in other railway organisations considered justified by the nature of the work.

The compromise which was ultimately arrived at when the North-Eastern Railway Bill was passed in that year was that the definition as to what was or was not confidential work should be given not by one of the under officials of the railway, but by the most responsible officer, namely, the general manager himself, and from letters which have been exchanged between the representatives of the railway clerks and Sir A. Kaye Butterworth, as representing the railway company, it would appear that the agreement then entered into has been acted upon up to the present date, and has worked satisfactorily. I naturally felt if the Great Central Railway had suggested a different practice for the definition of confidential work to that which had hitherto obtained, and if these four girls had in consequence been removed from one department to another because there had been a different definition, or because some change had been made, we must at once ask the railway company to explain or justify their action, and inform the Board of Trade for what reasons they had made the change and how they could justify it. The general manager of the railway company explained to me that in their view the custom in their office had always been that those who were engaged upon confidential work should not be members of the association, and that the work of the office was of a confidential nature, as it covered a large number of topics which must of necessity be regarded as confidential. So I found between the view of the railway clerks and the railway company a question of fact. If the view of the railway company were to be accepted, and if there had been no change since the War broke out, naturally one's judgment on the case was quite different. If, on the other hand, there had been a definite change, if there had been retrograde action such as was described by the hon. Member for North Somerset, if there had been a change which really put trade unionists under a new disadvantage, it was quite obvious that neither we at the Board of Trade nor the House of Commons could justify it.

I am sure the House will acquit me of any desire for ease or leisure when I say that I have so many things to attend to now that I would not myself conduct an inquiry into this matter. Indeed, it was preferable, if there was to be an inquiry into the facts of the case, that it should be conducted by somebody who could settle down to it for one or two days, who could hear the evidence on the two sides, and who was not distracted by the claims and responsibilities of office. When I had had communications both with the railway company and the association, I took a couple of days to think over in my mind the best way of dealing with the situation, and I made the following suggestion to the House earlier to-day—that as the statements of the parties on the point in dispute were conflicting, I was prepared, subject to the agreement of both parties, to ask someone—and I chose preferably a barrister as being a man who was in the habit of hearing evidence, because I thought it was more convenient to have someone who could weigh evidence than somebody not practised in that art—to inquire into the matter and report to me. When I had made up my mind as to what I thought was the best way of dealing with the matter, I ascertained from the railway company their view. They told me they were prepared to agree to this course being taken, and I am glad to say that the arrangement with them went so far as stating that the cross-examination of the company's staff might be conducted in this inquiry by the representative of the Railway Clerks Association, which is obviously in the interest of the trade unions. The one stipulation they made was that the representative should not be a representative in the employ of the company, which is, of course, a perfectly reasonable stipulation. The inquiry would, of course, be private. I was asked by the association whether those who gave evidence would be free from victimisation. I need hardly say that, in making the proposal, it was one of the conditions of it that whatever evidence should be given should be private, and that no one should be prejudiced thereby. On the responsibility of my Department I can secure that. That appeared to me to be a reasonable proposition. I regretted to receive from the association a letter declining the invitation. I am glad that my hon. Friend to-night has already accepted that in the course of the short discussion, and I am glad to think that we can now ascertain the actual facts. That certainly will be a step forward.

I can assure the House that, so far as we at the Board of Trade are concerned, we cannot be parties to a change which would be certainly of a retrograde nature during the period of control and during the period of the War. That would be a step in the wrong direction. It is only fair to say, however much my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. King) and the hon. Baronet (Sir R. Cooper) might have disliked the circular sent round by Sir Sam Fay, that everyone who knows Sir Sam Fay, knows the way in which he deals with some of these matters in a drastic manner, and with a great deal of good feeling. It is only just to him to say that there are few general managers in England who are on better terms with their servants than he. I should like to add, as my hon. Friend (Mr. King) cast some aspersions on Sir Sam Fay that I know of no one outside the Government service who has given more generously of his time to the service of his country since the War broke out. He is a member of the Railway Executive Committee, and has served us in a dozen ways, and I cannot believe, knowing him as I do, that he would do what is unjust or unfair in this case. When we have ascertained the facts, I think our sense of justice and fairness will save him from any impression of this kind in the future. So far as the Board of Trade is concerned our interests are not only to pre serve the peace, but to see that these powers and privileges which have been won by trade unionists in the railway service shall be preserved during the period of our control.

If I have done Sir Sam Fay an injustice, which I am sure from what has fallen from my right hon. Friend I have done, I have done so rather hastily, and I wish to retract and as far as possible make amends for any observations. At the same time I still consider that the circular which he sent round was not good in taste, and was very unfortunate, but I hope I shall at any rate have the sympathy of the House to this extent, that there may be some sort of excuse for my having gone too far.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at a Quarter before Eleven o'clock.