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Commons Chamber

Volume 78: debated on Thursday 20 January 1916

House of Commons

Thursday, January 20, 1916

East India (Legislative Councils)

Copy presented of Revised Regulations relating to Imperial and Provincial Legislative Councils incorporating Amendments made from time to time [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Local Taxation (Ireland) Account

Copy presented of Account of Receipts and Payments for the financial year ended 31st March, 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 422.]

Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland

Copy presented of the Black Scab in Potatoes (Special Area, Ireland) Order, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Civil Services and Revenue Departments (Appropriation Accounts)

Appropriation Accounts presented for the year ended 31st March, 1915, together with the Reports of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon, and certain Reports upon Store Accounts [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed [No. 423.]

Births, Deaths, and Marriages (Scotland)

Copy presented of the Sixtieth Annual Report on the Births, Deaths, and Marriages in Scotland for 1914 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Submarine E17 (Internment of Crew)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the decision of the Netherlands Government to intern the crew of E17 is final, or whether it is now the subject of negotiation as to the correct interpretation of international law on the subject of shipwrecked sailors?

This matter is still the subject of consideration by His Majesty's Government, and I am afraid that I am not yet in a position to add anything to what I have already said on the subject.

Italy (Trade Relations With Germany)

asked whether any relations for purposes of trade or telegraphic and postal facilities with or through Italy have been granted to Germany since the entry of Italy into the War through her declaration of war against Austria-Hungary?

I am informed that trade between Italy and Germany has in practice ceased since Italy's declaration of war against Austria. Inquiries are being made of the Italian Government as to both the law and the practice in Italy in respect to postal and telegraphic communication with Germany.

I suppose we must not take it that Italy and Germany are at war with one another?

Naval Blockade (American Trade)

asked whether the Foreign Office has been aware of the state of things demonstrated by the American trade statistics; and, if so, can he say how much longer our Navy is to be crippled by the Foreign Office, the war prolonged, and many more thousands of our men sacrificed?

I understand that the subject is to be discussed next week. I must, however, say that the statement made in the question is grossly unfair and entirely misrepresents the facts. I reserve such further statement as can be made in public till next week.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say for what reason the Government have chosen not to allow the effective blockade of Germany as allowed by international law?

Balkans

Naval Operations in Mediterranean

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information showing that in August, 1914, the French Admiral in the Mediterranean informed his Government that he was in pursuit of the "Goeben" and the "Breslau," which he intended to sink before Constantinople, and that he was forbidden to do so by the French Government, in consequence of the objection of England to do anything to annoy Turkey; if he will state whether he was informed by the French Government that they had received any such dispatch from the admiral; and, if so, what reply he made to the communication?

The answer is in the negative. There is no record of any such communication in the Foreign Office, and I have no recollection of having heard of it before.

Seeing that the story has been published in neutral countries, will the right hon. Gentleman take any steps to give an authoritative contradiction?

As a matter of fact I did not hear of the story until I read the hon. Member's question, which was sent to me this morning. I should like to make inquiries at the Admiralty before I say anything more about it.

Mercantile Marine (Casualties)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of that captains, officers, engineers, and men of the merchant service lose their lives and are wounded by torpedoes, mines, and shot in the service of the country, he will take steps to have published a list of casualties occurring in the merchant service from time to time; and whether he can state the number of such casualties which have occured since the commencement of the War?

At the beginning of each month the Board of Trade issue a notice to the Press giving the number and net tonnage of British merchant vessels respecting the loss of which reports were received during the previous month and also giving the number of lives lost. The vessels and lives lost by enemy action are distinguished in this notice. I am sending the hon. Gentleman a copy of the notice which was issued on the 1st January. The number of masters, officers, and seamen belonging to merchant trading vessels reported to the Board of Trade as having lost their lives by enemy action between the 4th August, 1914, and the 30th November, 1915, was 1,073. I regret that I cannot give precise figures as regards the number of men injured.

Will the hon. Gentleman take some steps to give national recognition in some form to the great services and sacrifices of the merchant service in this War, so that individuals who lose their lives may be signalised in the same way as they are in the Army and Navy?

Freights (Limitation)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps the Government are taking, or intend to take, to limit the rates of freight on grain, coal, and other necessaries to United Kingdom ports and the ports of the Allies; and whether, in view of the advantage which shipowners are taking of the necessity of the State, the Government will requisition the whole of the merchant tonnage on the British register and utilise it under the direction of expert committees for the services most essential to the prosecution of the War?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the very full answer given on the question of the regulation of freights yesterday. I am sending him a copy of the answer.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been directed to an estimate that the freightage alone represented 3d. in the present price of bread; and whether, seeing that this depends upon getting wheat sent here as there is no shortage, he intends taking any action in the matter?

I am advised that the estimate in the question is much too high. It is probably based on the assumption that the bread is all made from Argentine wheat, which of course is not the case.

Railways Congestion

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the congestion of traffic and shortage of trucks on the railways owing to the absence of arrangements for the pooling of railway trucks of all the different railway companies; and whether, in view of the fact that these companies are controlled by the Government, he will issue instructions for this to be done?

I have requested the Railway Executive Committee to consider how far they can usefully extend the existing arrangements for the common use of railway companies' wagons.

Board of Trade and Industrial Development

asked the President of the Board of Trade the names of the members of the Board, the date of their last meeting, and the names of those who attended; and whether, in view of the necessity of bringing the industrial factors of the strength of the country to the highest state of efficiency, he will consider the desirability of a reconstitution of the Board so that it may include two men of recognised ability in the industrial world and two men of science, noted for their knowledge of technical education and interested in the problem of providing for its application to industrial development?

The Board is composed of a number of ex-officio members, in addition to the President, who do not attend meetings. As regards the last part of the question, there are, I think, grave objections to any scheme which would divide the responsibility of the President to Parliament for all the acts of his Department among the members of a Board. Such advantages as might possibly accrue from the constitution of a permanent Board are better secured by the development of advisory committees of experts dealing with special groups of questions whom the President can consult without any diminution of his ultimate responsibility.

Do not the ex-officio members of the Board include the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Speaker of this House and the Speaker of the Irish Parliament?

Recruiting

Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Grants)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a case which came before the Ecclesall Board of Guardians on the 12th instant of a man who is serving with his regiment in France, whose wife through mental strain, occasioned by the War, has lost her reason and had to be temporarily taken to an asylum, and his two children to the cottage home of the guardians; whether the mere fact of this misfortune not only disenfranchises this soldier but also stops the Army allowance for the maintenance of his wife and children; and, if so, will he take steps by legislation or otherwise to deal with such a case?

My hon. Friend has been good enough to send me particulars of the case referred to. I am glad to say that under the Electoral Disabilities (Naval and Military Service) Removal Act, 1914, the soldier would not be disfranchised on account of the circumstances mentioned. I also understand that the issue of an Army allowance in respect of the maintenance of the children would not be discontinued. Of course, the administration of these allowances is under the control of the War Office.

I understand that as the War Office order stands at present it only applies to children, but I believe the matter is under consideration. I think the question should be addressed to the War Office.

Education (Metric System and Foreign Languages)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the requirements of British trade after the War, attention has been given to the advantages of using the metric system and of a command of foreign languages; and whether local education authorities are being encouraged to carry on classes or give instruction in these subjects, especially in the manufacturing and commercial districts?

The Board are fully alive to the advantages of a command of foreign languages, and local education authorities are encouraged to make provision for giving instruction in them. Instruction in at least one foreign language is required in all secondary schools aided by the Board. Instruction is ordinarily given in the metric system of weights and measures in secondary schools and technical schools, and the Board have no reason to believe that the value of such instruction is not adequately realised. My hon. Friend will appreciate the difficulty of asking local education authorities at the present time to extend their activities.

Assistant - Paymasters (Royal Naval Reserve)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the corps of Royal Naval Reserve Assistant - Paymasters was established in 1904, and whether these officers have always had to maintain themselves in an efficient state either by attending annual classes of instruction or by a period of training afloat each year; whether they have done this service without any retaining fee and, until they were called out, received no grant in aid of uniform; and, seeing that officers of this grade with many years' service to their credit find themselves on the same level as temporary assistant-paymasters enlisted since the commencement of hostilities, will the Admiralty see their way to recognise the long service of these officers by granting them an additional half-stripe or extra pay?

The answers to the first two parts of the question are in the affirmative. As regards the third part, it is not proposed to make any change in the present Regulations. Assistant-Paymasters, Royal Naval Reserve, of four years' seniority, are already distinguished from new entries by wearing two stripes instead of one.

Firth of Forth and Clyde (Suggested Ship Canal)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, considering the importance of the proposed Ship Canal joining the Firth of Forth and the Clyde to the naval base at Rosyth, he will now make arrangements for the employment of the German prisoners of war on this work?

So far as the Admiralty are aware the construction of this canal is not contemplated.

Enemy Aliens

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if there is any objection to the deportation to their respective countries of the number of enemy aliens still at large in this country and who are not of military age, seeing that this course will be simpler and less expensive than sending them back after the conclusion of the War?

The aliens mentioned in the question have all been exempted from repatriation on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee, presided over by Mr. Justice Younger, who were satisfied that there was adequate ground for exemption in each case. A large proportion belong to friendly races, such as Czechs, Poles, Alsatians, and Italians of the Trentino, which are included in the enemy Empires against their will. The majority have been resident here for more than thirty years, and have lost connection with their country of origin. A certain number are women, not of enemy birth, but who have acquired enemy nationality by marriage. One thousand five hundred are over seventy years of age.

Foreign Residents

asked the Home Secretary whether a mere statement on the part of a foreigner resident in this country to the effect that he is a citizen of a neutral country is accepted by the police authorities without further investigation; and, if not, what is the nature of the proof required, what steps are taken to obtain it, and what steps are taken if it is unattainable?

No statement that a foreigner is of neutral nationality which the police have any reason to distrust is accepted without investigation. The nature of the proof demanded must depend upon the circumstances of each individual case. If the police have reason to suspect that the foreigner is of enemy nationality they would put him to proof by summoning him for failing to register as an alien enemy.

Special Constabulary

asked the Home Secretary if all persons volunteering as special constables have hitherto been and still are required to make a declaration giving particulars relating to themselves, and, if so, in what form; and if making a false or misleading statement in this connection is a punishable offence, and, if so, what is the penalty for such offence?

The form of declaration required to be made by special constables is set out in the Order in Council of the 9th September, 1914, of which I will send the hon. Member a copy. It does not refer to the nationality of the candidate, but the enrolling officer is required to satisfy himself on this point. In future it is proposed to obtain from every candidate a written statement that he is a British subject. There are ample powers to punish by imprisonment or internment any enemy alien who falsely represents himself to be a British subject.

Would the penalty only apply to alien enemies or would it apply to any alien who obtained enrolment in the special constabulary by false pretences?

asked the Home Secretary if a man neither born nor naturalised in this country, and only recently arrived therein, was enrolled as a special constable in London without any proper inquiries being made or guarantees demanded, and that this man enrolled himself under an English name, his real name being a German one; and will he explain why the authorities, having known these facts and other suspicious circumstances for nearly two months, have taken no stronger action than to request this man to resign his position as a special constable, and still allow him to carry on business under an illegally assumed English name?

The person referred to, when he joined the special constabulary, made the usual declaration, and he stated that he was an American citizen. He has papers which appear to confirm this statement, but further inquiry is being made. As he was an alien he ought not to have been accepted as a special constable, the Regulations not permitting the enrolment of aliens, and, when the matter came to notice, he was required to resign. The police have, however, no reason to doubt his bona fides. He carries on business under a name he has used for many years, both in America and in this country. The prohibition against the change of name by alien enemies during the War does not apply to him.

I beg to give notice that I intend to raise this question on the Adjournment on Monday.

Press Censorship

asked the Home Secretary whether he can now state the changes in the Press censorship promised as a result of consultation with the military authorities abroad; whether the daily communiqué is now regularly published; and whether information regarding all our fronts is regularly included?

My right hon. Friend the late Home Secretary discussed the subject with the responsible military authorities from General Headquarters, and, as he informed the House on the 9th December, in reply to a question put by the hon. Member for North Somerset, the issue of a daily communiqué from the Western front was begun, and it is now regularly published. The arrangement did not extend to other fronts, but I will ask the War Office to consider whether any extension of the scope of the communiqué is practicable. At the conference referred to the question of facilities for newspaper correspondents was also discussed, and I understand that the Staff at General Headquarters are doing their utmost to facilitate the work of the correspondents. New arrangements have now been in force for some little time, and from the information which has reached me I believe that they are working satisfactorily and are much appreciated.

Quadruplex, Limited

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of Quadruplex, Limited, who are manufacturing pocket cooking stoves for the Army; whether the shares in this company are almost entirely owned by alien enemies resident in Berlin and Hanover; whether the managing director of this company is Jakob Strumpf, a German by birth, not naturalised, and a discharged bankrupt; whether this person has a permit signed by the late Home Secretary to trade in this country; whether, in the course of business, he has opportunities of visiting various Government Departments and the military camps in this country; whether he will see that this person is interned at once; and what further steps he proposes to take in the matter?

Jakob Strumpf, a German, was exempted from internment in October last on the ground that he was engaged in work which it was in the public interest that he should continue. The exemption is liable to revocation at any time, but I am not at present aware of any reason for revoking it. No permit to trade signed by the Home Secretary has been granted to him. The question of any future action in regard to his business will be for the consideration of the Board of Trade when the Bill which is now before the House is passed. I understand that their attention has already been directed to the case.

Russian Seamen's Union

asked the Home Secretary the grounds on which the representatives of Scotland Yard raided the office of the Russian Seamen's Union on the 20th December last and seized all the papers, stamps, and documents, and afterwards raided the private dwelling of the secretary; whether the union differs in any essential point from a British trade union; and whether any subsequent action is contemplated?

As the police inquiries are still incomplete, I think it would be undesirable to make any statement on this matter at present.

Brotherhood Church Meeting (Disturbance)

asked the Home Secretary what expense will fall upon the rates in consequence of the damage done in the Brotherhood Church in the course of disturbances at a public meeting held there on the 16th instant; if the authorities will take steps to recover this expense from the persons who are known to have promoted the disturbance in question; and whether he intends to take any action in respect to the incitements to violence which are continually appearing in the "Daily Express" and other papers?

Damages are payable from the rates only in cases of riot, and the reports received from the polile do not show that the disorder on the occasion refrred to amounted to riot. If my hon. Friend will let me see the newspaper paragraph which he alleges contain incitements to violence, I will consider whether any action ought to be taken.

Have the police recovered any of the property which was stolen by the thieves who took part in this disturbance?

I should have to make inquiry on that point, if the hon. Member will give me notice.

Export Lace Trade (Hours of Employment)

asked the Home Secretary whether, since the War, the number of male operatives employed in the export lace trade has decreased to such an extent that unless their places can be supplied by females it will be difficult for the trade to be continued upon a working basis; that the substitution of females is impeded by the rules relating to their employment being limited to the period between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m. or 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., whereby, if threading is required after the later hours named, the machines have to remain idle till 8 a.m. next day; that a general Order extending the hours of employment for women and young persons, so that they may be worked in sets between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m., between 10 a.m. and 10 p.m., or between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m., is needed so that by the distribution of available labour stoppages of machinery may be avoided without increase of the actual hours of labour in respect of any individual worker; and whether he will, for these reasons, grant a general Order in the desired terms?

Representations have been made to the Home Office on this question, and in view of the important character of the export trade the Home Secretary is prepared to grant an Order for the purpose mentioned. The details are now under consideration.

Does the Home Secretary intend to issue an Order in the terms prayed for?

Inland Letters (Censorship)

asked the Postmaster-General whether inland letters are now being censored; and, if so, on what principle and by whose authority?

I should like to take this opportunity of giving an explanation which I hope will do something to remove what is apparently a very prevalent misapprehension. The Postmaster-General has no control over the censorship, and is not in a position to answer any inquiries with regard to it. Any such questions should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War.

Is it not the case when you put a stamp on an envelope that my right hon. Friend takes charge of it and ought to be responsible to those who post it?

All questions with regard to the censorship are in the hands of the War Office.

Is not the Postmaster-General in charge of the carriage and delivery of letters, and does he not know whether anyone interferes with them?

Supply of Doctors

asked the Prime Minister whether, taking into consideration the threatened shortage in the supply of doctors for the needs both of the Army and of the civilian population, he will take steps to reorganise and recall to normal action the Statutory Advisory Board of the Army Medical Services, that it may resume regular meetings in its consultative capacity with a view to aiding the Director-General to a better utilisation of the skill and experience which has been offered by medical men to the War Office, and to a more appropriate distribution of medical aid both for meeting the necessities of the military situation and for the needs of the civilian population?

As regards the Advisory Board, which is not, as my hon. Friend states, statutory, I would refer him to what I said in the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Plymouth on the 25th November, and also to the written reply I gave the same hon. Member on the 12th January, 1915. From this latter answer he will see that machinery is in existence, in the shape of the Central Medical War Committee, to advise as to the best use which can be made of medical men presenting themselves for acceptance as candidates for commissions in the Royal Army Medical Corps. The answer referred to deals with the matter at great length, and I cannot repeat it to-day. I may, however, add that, thanks to the patriotism of the medical profession, there is no present anxiety regarding the supply of doctors for the Army, and the action of the Central Medical War Committee, with which the Director-General of the Army Medical Service is in touch, will be to carefully guard the interests of the civil population in this matter, the claims of whom have not been and will not be disregarded.

Is it illegal for the Board not to perform the duties for which it was constituted?

National Education

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the advisability of placing the education of the country on such a basis that not only scientific work, particularly original research work, may be fostered and developed to the utmost, but that its application to industrial enterprises is practically provided for in the most efficacious manner, he will take advantage of the present crisis to institute a broad and far-reaching scheme of education, extending from the primary schools to the highest paths of the universities, and setting in relief the paramount importance of science and of scientific methods?

The Board of Education hope, on the restoration of peace, to give effect to their plan for improving the national system of education, particularly on the technical and scientific side, which were necessarily suspended on the outbreak of War. The hon. Member is probably aware that a Committee of the Privy Council is at the present time engaged in carrying out a scheme of industrial research, a Vote for which was approved by Parliament a few months ago.

Even before the end of the War would it not be well to get under weigh with this important reform?

The Board of Education is doing everything that is practical and possible.

Munitions

MILITARY SERVICE (No. 2) BILL

Parcels for Troops (Salonika)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that dissatisfaction and discomfort have been occasioned by the delay in parcels reaching the troops in Salonika; and whether steps can be taken to ensure a more efficient service in future?

Parcel mails for the Salonika Force are forwarded from London by the most expeditious routes at the disposal of the Post Office, and there is now no avoidable delay in their transmission.

Allies' War Council

asked the Prime Minister whether the Allies' War Council includes military and or political representatives of Italy, Japan, Russia, Serbia, and Montenegro; and, if all these Powers are not now represented, whether it is intended to give representation to all belligerent States?

It is not expedient to say more than that arrangements for the extension of the Allied Council are in progress.

Defence of London

asked the Prime Minister whether the anti-aircraft defences of London and elsewhere are continuing to receive the close attention of His Majesty's Government; and whether he can discreetly disclose any information on the subject to reassure the public in this respect?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second, certain changes are now under consideration, but it would be contrary to the public interest to make any statement about them at present.

Building Contracts

asked the Prime Minister whether he has been, asked by the London Master Builders' Association to meet a deputation from that association to discuss the question of suspending or cancelling contracts entered into prior to 4th August, 1914; whether he has agreed to meet such deputation; and, if so, whether, before coming to any decision on the matter, he will meet a deputation of the representatives of the workmen engaged in the building trades and discuss the question with them?

Merchant Seamen (Badges)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the services rendered by our merchant seamen, they will be provided with a distinctive badge or armlet to prevent them from being mistaken when on shore for men who have refused to do their share of duty?

The prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. I have nothing to add to the answers given on this subject to the hon. Member for the Devizes Division of Wiltshire on the 26th October and 30th November last.

Lord Kitchener's Requirements

asked the Prime Minister whether Lord Kitchener has asked for 1,500,000 men to the end of 1916; whether this information was given to the Cabinet; and, if so, on what date?

I can add nothing to the statements which have already been made on this matter.

Does my right hon. Friend refer to the statement by the President of the Board of Education that Lord Kitchener had asked for these men?

Seeing that practically every statement which has been made contradicts every other statement, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us which statement we have to take?

Board of Education

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability, in regard to the present crisis, of so reconstituting the Board of Education and of so enlarging its scope that, while retaining a strong labour element in the Cabinet, there may be nominated as President of the Board some man eminent in theoretical science, able to grasp the trend of modern research work and to appreciate the results, as well as acquainted with the means of forming a nexus between such scientific work and its eventual outcome in technical education and the application of technical knowledge to industrial enterprises?

Situation in Adriatic

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement as to the position of the Allies in the Adriatic, more especially with regard to Montenegro and Albania?

I have no more information as to the present position in Montenegro than has appeared in the Press. I gave the hon. Member what information I could as to Albania on 10th January, and I fear that I can make no further statement.

Corn Imports (Freights)

asked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that the price of wheat is now higher than it has been for over thirty years, and that about one-third of the present price of a loaf of bread represents the cost of shipment to this country of imported grain or flour, the Government propose to take in the immediate future any steps to regulate or limit the freights charged during the War for the shipment of cereal grain to this country?

On the question of regulating freights, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made in answer to questions yesterday. The estimate of the cost of shipment contained in the question is too high, and is probably based on the assumption that the bread is all made of Argentine wheat.

Mediterranean Expeditionary Force

Conscription of Wealth and Estates

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the legislation now passing through the House, he will also grant facilities for the introduction and discussion of a Bill to make available for the successful conduct of the War all the material resources of the nation by means of the conscription of all surplus wealth and landed estates?

I would remind the hon. Member that considerable steps have already been taken in the direction he indicates, by means of Income Tax, Super-Tax, and the Excess Profits Duty. I need hardly add that it may be necessary to impose further burdens of this character. Meanwhile, I cannot anticipate the measures which will be proposed in future Finance Bills by giving the hon. Member the facilities for which he asks.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it is not reasonable, when every other class of the community is being called upon to make great sacrifices during the period of the War, that those who hold the land of the country should be called upon to make a special contribution towards its defence?

Everybody should make a contribution in proportion to their ability to pay.

Will the right hon. Gentleman receive a deputation from the Land Values Group?

Serbia and Montenegro (Government Policy)

asked if the Government adhere to their declared policy of prosecuting the War with the utmost rigour until the territories of Serbia and Montenegro are restored as independent kingdoms?

I am not aware to what my hon. Friend refers. I adhere to the declaration which I made in this House on 2nd November.

Is not the House well aware of the declared policy of the Government, and has there been any change of policy in view of the recent development of events?

No, Sir. There has been no change whatever in any declared policy of the Government.

I would ask the hon. Gentleman to look at my speech of the 2nd November. The question answers itself.

National Health Insurance (Referees, Ireland)

asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, whether the Irish National Health Insurance Commissioners have appointed referees according to the provisions of the Act; if so, when the appointments were made, what are the names and the qualifications of the persons so appointed, and whether their names were submitted to the Treasury for approval in accordance with the provisions of the Act; whether he is aware that the Irish National Health Insurance Commissioners have appointed members of their own body to act as referees under the Act for the purpose of deciding appeals, and that in a recent case heard in the town of Wexford, notwithstanding the legal objection by one of the parties to the appeal, two of the Irish Insurance Commissioners sat and acted as referees to decide the appeal; whether this appointment of members of their own body by the Irish National Health Insurance Commissioners to act as referees is in accordance with the provisions of the Act and has the sanction of the Treasury and of its legal advisers; and whether, if the Irish National Health Insurance Commissioners have not already appointed referees in accordance with the provisions of the Act, he will give directions that the Commission shall proceed to the appointment of such referees in the form and manner prescribed by the Act?

I assume that the first two parts, as well as the remainder of this question, relate to the appointment of referees under Sections 67 (3) and 81 (1) of the principal Act. I am advised that the procedure adopted by the Irish Insurance Commissioners is in accordance with the law, and I see no reason to depart from it.

Slaughter of Calves

asked if it is proposed to continue in operation and without modification the existing Order of the Board relating to the slaughter of calves?

The Department have recently circularised the local authorities and the Board's agricultural correspondents in order to ascertain their opinion as to the administrative effect of the Order. As soon as the majority of the replies to this inquiry have been received the President of the Board proposes to consult his Agricultural Advisory Committee as to the modifications of the Order, if any, which it may be considered desirable to make

Exchequer Bonds

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in order to meet the convenience of investors in Ireland, a special arrangement has just been made in terms of which applications for and registration of holdings of the new Exchequer Bonds are to be dealt with by the Bank of Ireland in Dublin; whether, in order to afford the same facilities to investors in Scotland, arrangements will be made for the transaction of such business at one or other of the bank offices in Edinburgh and Glasgow; and whether the volume of such business in Exchequer Bonds is expected to be on a larger scale in Ireland than in Scotland?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave yesterday on this subject in answer to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division of Glasgow.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the fact that the Scottish Bank is not dealt with in this matter militates against the loans?

I think that subject is fully dealt with in the answer given yesterday.

Gold Coins (Melting for Jewellery)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the Treasury permit the melting down of good sovereigns and half-sovereigns for the purpose of the manufacture of jewellery; and if his attention has been drawn to the fact that this is being done extensively at the present time to meet the demand that exists for gold ornaments and trinkets?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answers which I gave on the 6th January in reply to a question by the hon. Member for the Bassetlaw Division of Nottinghamshire.

Does he not think that it is wrong that gold coins in this country should be melted down and turned into jewellery while in Germany they are turning their jewellery into gold coins?

I think in the answers I have given I stated that a Bill will be required in order to stop this practice, and we are now considering the question whether it should be introduced.

Fur Sales

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been called to the sales of furs and articles made of fur and of imitation fur; and if he will consider the question of putting a heavy Import Duty or tax on these luxuries, especially as a large part of them are imported from abroad and their purchase affects the exchanges against this country?

My attention has already been called to this matter. The suggestion of the hon. Member, in common with many other suggestions as to taxation now before me, will be carefully considered.

Vouchers and War Loan Investments

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the number of 5s., 10s., and £1 vouchers and certificates of £5 and of larger amounts taken up of the 4½ per cent. War Loan, and the total value of the small investments in that issue?

The number of vouchers sold was, in round figures, as follows: 5s., 1,501,000; 10s., 421,000; £1, 827,000; and their total value £1,413,000. The number of £5 scrip certificates sold was 798,220, and their value £3,991,100. There were no certificates of larger amount than £5. Other subscriptions through the Post Office amounted to £30,642,000, and through the Trustee Savings Banks to £3,840,000.

Bleriot Manufacturing Aircraft Company

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the sanction of the Treasury Committee on new issues was given to the Bleriot Manufacturing Aircraft Company, promoted by Mr. Harry Lawson, of which the Duke of Manchester was chairman, and against which a petition for compulsory winding up has already been granted; will he say on what principle the Committee's sanction was given; whether, when the sanction was given, the Bleriot machine had ceased to be purchased by the Government; and whether, in view of the general dissatisfaction with the decision of the Committee, as expressed by the London Chamber of Commerce and other business interests in the City, he will appoint a new tribunal which will sit at regular times to hear applicants and give reasons when it refuses permission?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In reply to the second part I may say that, as stated in the prospectus of the company, the Treasury do not, in considering whether they have or have not any objection to new issues, take any responsibility for the financial soundness of any schemes or for the correctness of any of the statements made or opinions expressed with regard to them. In this particular case the issue was recomended by the Fresh Issues Committee on the advice of the War Office with the object of increasing the supply of aeroplanes. The answer to the third part of the question is in the negative. In regard to the last part of the question, I fear I can add nothing to previous answers on this subject.

I think that is a question which must be addressed to the War Office. I have no personal knowledge of it.

Territorial Force (Promotion of Officers)

asked the Under-Secretary for War, whether officers in the Territorial Force temporarily at home from the front, either through wounds or being invalided, do not qualify for promotion in their third-line battalions when attached to them for service; and, seeing that this produces an injustice to officers of the first line, who, through no fault of their own, may become junior to third-line officers originally below them in the same regiment and who have seen no active service, will he say what steps he will take to remove this grievance?

Officers who are at-attached to third line depots take their proper precedence in the third line according to their seniority in the regiment. This precedence is determined in the case of an officer holding a permanent commission by the date of his permanent rank, and in the case of an officer holding a temporary commission by the date of his present appointment to the Territorial Force.

Nerve Shock

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can yet see his way to accede to the many representations sent up to him by Members of the House of Commons that appropriate treatment, apart from connection with lunacy, should be provided for uncertifiable cases of nerve shock occurring among unwounded soldiers of the rank and file, since large numbers of similar cases among the wounded recover in a short time in the base hospitals; and, seeing that officers are provided with hospital treatment dissociated from asylums, will he put an end to the practice of placing the rank and file when so invalided under lunacy administration in annexes of county asylums?

As my hon. Friend is aware, I have answered many questions on this subject and have explained the treatment given. The institutions to which he refers in the latter part of the question are entirely under the control of the War Office and not under the jurisdiction of the Lunacy Board of Control. In order that my hon. Friend may see what the treatment is which is given to such cases occurring amongst soldiers of the rank and file, I should be glad if he would allow me to make arrangements for him to visit one or two of the hospitals in question. Perhaps he will kindly communicate with me with reference to the arrangement of such a visit.

Officers (Age)

asked whether any officer has been appointed to a chief command since the beginning of this War whose age has been on his appointment under fifty-three years; and, if not, why soldiers are refused enlistment after forty-one years of age, being then presumably past their best, while officers are given chief commands up to sixty-six years of age?

I believe that my hon. Friend is right in the broad generalisation he makes in the first part of the question, although, as the term "chief command" is not technically correct I have not been able to test it with precision. The latter part of the question seems to suggest that in the interests of democratic uniformity of treatment recruits should be allowed to continue enlisting up to the age of sixty-six, or, alternatively, officers who are over forty-one years of age should not be given what my hon. Friend calls a "chief command." This is a very novel idea, and on mature consideration I think my hon. Friend would reject it.

I am unaware that there is any limit of age for the highest places in this country, including the Premiership in this House or in the other House.

Enlistments

asked how many men enlisted between 15th December, 1915, and 10th January, 1916?

No. Sir, I regret that I do not see my way to give the figure asked for.

Discharged Soldiers

asked whether a man discharged from the New Army as not likely to become an efficient soldier, but with a good character, must attest again under the Military Service (No. 2) Bill if eligible on the score of age and condition?

This question is raised by one or two of the Amendments on the Paper to the First Schedule of the Bill. Perhaps my hon. Friend will await the discussion in Committee.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will make arrangements to allow men who have been discharged as unfit after service at the front to continue to wear some uniform or armlet during the War to indicate the services they have rendered?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on the 18th instant to the hon. Member for Bethnal Green.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state broadly the effect of that answer? Are they entitled or not?

Officers' Servants

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many men are employed in the various forces at home as servants to officers and others; and whether, in view of the urgent need for men, he can arrange for officers and others to do without servants?

I cannot provide my hon. Friend with the figure, but I can assure him that the number of men employed as officers' servants is reduced, as far as possible, by making one servant act for two or three officers, and that all men so employed are men who are not fit for service in the field. My hon. Friend's suggestion would not therefore, if carried out, increase the number of men available for service in the field.

Is my right hon. Friend quite sure that all officers' servants are not fit for service in the field?

Army Wastage

asked whether the percentage of wastage in the Army, estimated at 15 per cent. per month, is applied to the whole Army or only to the Infantry?

I stated in the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Hanley on the 12th January that the figure 15 per cent. per month applied to the Infantry only.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state the proportion of this 15 per cent. per month who are able to return to duty and have not to be replaced by others?

Army Medical Services

asked whether, seeing that the Army medical services are subject to dual control, one Director-General being in England and another Director-General in France who may work contrary to the plans of the Director-General in England, and who posesses authority to upset the units of hospitals as soon as they arrive in France, appropriate steps will be taken to deal with the matter?

The appropriate steps for dealing with this matter would be, I think, to make no change. There is no conflict of authority. Medical units in the field are under the orders of the Commander-in-Chief, to dispose of in any way he thinks fit. I do not see how it could be otherwise.

asked whether those retired officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps who have been called up for active service are now receiving full pay of rank in addition to full pension; and, if not, what pay is each surgeon-general and each colonel receiving?

Yes, Sir; with the exception of a small number of surgeon-generals, who have given their services in posts of a grading not commensurate with that rank, and draw £600 a year in addition to pension.

asked whether the Government have, during the last three years, paid to each paid member of the Advisory Board of Medical Services a sum of £600; and whether, seeing that since the beginning of the War the Board has held no meetings, he will consider the advisability of eliminating this expense, if it be the desire of the Government that no formal meetings of that Board be held?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers I gave to the hon. Member for Plymouth on the 22nd November and the 25th November, to which I have nothing to add.

Director-General (Salary)

asked what is the total of the emoluments at present being received by the Director-General in England, including present pay plus pension and salary as President of the Imperial College of Science and Technology; what emoluments are being received by the Director-General in France; and whether he is receiving the salary of a Director-General, together with allowances, as well as a wound pension?

The Director-General of Army Medical Services at the War Office is receiving from Army funds £2,000 a year pay and £625 pension. He is receiving nothing from the Imperial College of Science and Technology. The Director-General of Medical Services in France is receiving £2,000 a year pay and the field allowance of his rank (£273). His wounds pension was commuted some years ago.

Quadruplex, Limited

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any contracts have been placed by his Department with Quadruplex, Limited, for the supply of pocket cooking apparatus for the troops; whether he is aware that the shares in this company are owned almost exclusively by German alien enemies, and the business is managed by a non-naturalised person of German birth whose real name is Jakob Strumpf and who has assumed the name of J. Strong; whether this person has had access to our military camps; and whether he will at once take steps to see that no business is done in future with this firm by the War Office?

Nothing is known in the War Office of the person or the firm referred to; nor have any orders for pocket cooking apparatus been placed by the Department.

Aeroplane Service (Fokker Machines)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the British aeroplanes now at the front are equal in efficiency to the new German Fokker machines; and whether he can make any statement as to the results of the aerial fighting on the British front in Flanders during the last month?

In order that the present position as regards aerial fighting on the Western front may be correctly understood, the defensive nature of the German methods of fighting in the air must be kept in mind. It is to this kind of fighting only that the Fokker aeroplane, which is incapable of prolonged flights away from its own lines and over the British lines, is appropriate, though for this limited purpose its suitability is not disputed. The main duties of aeroplanes, however, are reconnaissance and artillery work, and, in our case, offensive fighting, and it is with reference to these duties that the suitability of our types of machine must be judged mainly. I may say, however, that if the Germans adopted the offensive and came behind our lines, we have machines quite equal in efficiency and speed to the Fokker aeroplanes which they employ defensively behind their lines.

In reply to the second part of the question, I would point out that, for the reasons I have mentioned, nearly every fight in the air takes place on the German side of the trenches. As a result casualties to our aeroplanes and pilots when they occur tend to appear excessive by comparison, because the Germans can hide their own whilst advertising ours. But my military advisers are satisfied that our Flying Service has given a good account of itself in recent fighting.

Enteric Fever

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state why no statistics are given of the balance of 215 cases of enteric fever over and above those diagnosed after bacteriological examination; also if cases bearing the name of paratyphoid fever, trench fever, pyrexia, and other pseudonyms of enteric fever, are included in the totals furnished by him; and, if not so included, will he furnish statistics of cases and deaths diagnosed under those heads as well as those for the 215 cases of enteric fever referred to above?

The 215 cases consist of those waiting bacteriological examination and also of some cases which, in the early days of the War, were not bacteriologically examined, but were diagnosed as enteric fever on clinical grounds only. The diseases mentioned in the second part of the question were not included in the figures I gave on the 10th January. I cannot accept my hon. Friend's suggestion that those diseases are pseudonyms for enteric fever. No statistics are available of the cases of trench fever and pyrexia. My hon. Friend's question appears to me to suggest, though, no doubt, inadvertently, that the medical authorities hide cases of enteric fever by falsely returning them under other names. So far as this suggestion is contained in the question, I must repudiate it. I did not give particulars of the cases of paratyphoid in my answer of 10th January because no system of inoculation for that disease had been adopted.

Cavalry Regiments (Promotion)

asked whether the rule as to the promotion of captains in Regular Infantry Regiments after fifteen years' service is also applicable to captains in Regular Cavalry Regiments?

Railway Trucks and Engines (Repairs)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether in view of the congestion of traffic on the railways caused by the number of out-of-order trucks and engines, he will release from military duties men at present training and serving at Home, so that the necessary repairs may be made to the railway rolling-stock and thereby relieve transit difficulties?

A certain number of railway employés have already been re- leased. I understand that the Ministry of Munitions have the whole question under consideration.

Lunacy Institutions (Unwounded Soldiers)

asked the Under-Secretary for War the names of the lunacy institutions which are being used in whole or in part for the accommodation of unwounded soldiers invalided through transient loss of balance or mental disorder; and if these institutions are under the jurisdiction of the Lunacy Board of Control?

The institutions are Springfield War Hospital, WandsWorth; the Napsbury War Hospital, Napsbury, St. Albans; the Red Cross Military Hospital, Maghull, near Liverpool; and the War Hospital, Peebles, N.B. The institutions mentioned above have been taken over by the War Office, and are entirely under its control.

Naval and Military Services (Pensions and Allowances)

asked the Under-Secretary for War how much per head is being paid by the War Office to the asylum authorities in respect of the accommodation and treatment of those soldiers, whether certifiable or uncertifiable, who are suffering from nerve-shock but are still in the Army; and if the responsibility in regard to those soldiers is assumed by the lunacy authorities?

No rate per head has been fixed for these soldiers. The net additional cost will be refunded in due course. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.

In the cases of men suffering from mental weakness, have they pensions or allowances for their support if they return to their homes?

Are the War Office paying money to the Lunacy Commissioners and authorities, and are they not spending the money on keeping these men? Is not that the case?

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether payment of separation allowance to a wife at the request of a soldier can, in the absence of a conviction for misconduct, be diverted to some other person without an opportunity being first given to the wife to justify her claim to the continuation of the allowance?

It is difficult to deal with this subject in reply to a question, as so much depends upon the circumstances of individual cases. If my hon. and gallant Friend will communicate to me the particulars of any case he may have in mind, I will make inquiry into it.

Territorial Force (Foreign Service)

asked the Under-Secretary for War if, under the Military Service (No. 2) Bill, members of the Territorial Force who have joined for home defence only and have not volunteered for work abroad will be required to undertake foreign service?

Territorials who have not undertaken liability for foreign service come under the Bill as it stands. A full statement will be made to-day.

May I ask whether the Bill is not confined to Home Service Territorials who are unmarried and who are within the military age?

Maimed Soldiers (Artificial Limbs)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office, whether the best available artificial limbs are being supplied to officers and men who have lost limbs in the War; whether the whole cost is paid by the State; and, if not, what proportion is paid in the case of officers and men, respectively?

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for the Melton Division on the 12th May, and to the answer given by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the hon. and gallant Member for the Maidstone Division on the 13th December. Officers are given such sum as the Army Council consider sufficient to defray the necessary expense of providing the artificial appliances; and artificial limbs for men are provided and prepared at the public cost for men who lose limbs in the War. I would add that an institution has been opened at Roehampton House where all men who have lost limbs can go and have the artificial limbs fitted under the advice of expert orthopædic surgeons. The men are also taught how to use the artificial limbs.

Mineral Phosphates

asked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the deficiency of mineral phosphates in India and of the fact that the greater part of the bones exported go to foreign countries, he will consider the advisability of suggesting to the Governor-General in Council the limiting or prohibiting of the export of bones from India?

I will draw the attention of the Government of India to the matter.

North-West Frontier of India

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the despatches relating to the military operations on the North-West frontier of India, in September, 1915, have been published in the "Gazette of India"; and, if not, will he say why this has not been done?

The despatches have not been published in the "Gazette of India" as received up to date. For the reason of non-publication I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer I gave to his question on the 11th January.

Considering the position of the men who are retained for defensive purposes on the North-West Frontier of India, will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Government of India to consider the publication of these despatches in the "Gazette of India"?

I should be very glad to hear anything from my hon. Friend if he would like to see me on the subject. I do not at present see why operations on the North-West Frontier of India in pre- sent circumstances should be dealt with differently from what they would be in ordinary circumstances.

Are the operations under the India Office, or are they covered by the General Staff?

I do not think that arises out of the question. The operations for the defence of the Indian frontier are necessarily under the control of the Government of India.

I will refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the question which appeared on the Paper on the 11th instant., in which I explained the practice in regard to the publication of dispatches.

Mesopotamia

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Cabinet has now before it the scope of the Mesopotamia campaign and the plans for its successful prosecution; and whether he can give the House any information as to the decisions arrived at by the Cabinet?

( by Private Notice ): Can the right hon. Gentleman give to the House any further information with regard to the progress of the campaign in Mesopotamia?

I am glad to say that, the weather having moderated, General Aylmer has been enabled to continue his advance. His troops were yesterday evening close on the Es Sinn position, and, consequently, only about seven miles from Kut. General Townshend reports no fighting or firing. As I have already announced to the House, Sir J. Nixon has been obliged by ill-health to relinquish his command. He handed over command to Sir Percy Lake yesterday.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether steps will be taken immediately to complete the vesting of the tenants in their holdings on the Jermyn estate, at Castle Cove, county Kerry, for which a promise has already been given by the Congested Districts Board?

I am informed by the Congested Districts Board that the tenants have now signed the agreements for the purchase of their holdings on the estate referred to and that steps will be taken to have the holdings vested as soon as possible.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, if any advances will be made to the Estates Commissioners for carrying out direct sales between landlord and tenant in Ireland under the Land Purchase Acts during 1916; and if he can state approximately the amount?

Will the right hon. Gentleman say about when, in view of the winding-up of the estates?

It is not easy to obtain money just now, but it will be obtained, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman I will spare no effort in the matter.

I do not want to press the right hon. Gentleman, but does he anticipate that £1,000,000 will be sufficient?

Metric System

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is possessed of information showing that Germany's use of the metric system has given her a commercial advantage over this country in other lands in which the metric system is alone understood; and whether the Government is prepared at the proper time to propose changes to meet this case?

I know it has been stated not infrequently in reports from Consuls abroad that British trade is handicapped by the failure of the British trader to make use of the metric system in his catalogues, etc. There is, however, nothing in the present law to prevent him employing that system if he so desires.

Will the Board of Trade encourage them to do this; will he definitely insist upon it?

Mail Service (Dunoon and Greenock)

asked the Postmaster-General what are the arrangements made by him as to the class of steamer to be utilised by the contractor for the carrying of the mails to Dunoon from Greenock; is there no agreement as to a seaworthy vessel able to meet all weather being put on the route; is he aware that a small motor boat called the "Comet" is now attempting this work and that the delays caused by her unsuitability for the journey, and especially for taking the piers satisfactorily in any sea or wind, is causing constant delays in the delivery of the mails; and will he see that this matter is put right?

I am having inquiry made, and will write to the hon. Member on the subject.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this contractor does whatever he likes with his Department?

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

May I ask the Prime Minister whether he proposes to give a day for the discussion of the Motion on the blockade, standing in the name of the hon. Member for Plymouth and other hon. Members?

I will deal with that matter in answering the question to be put to me about business of the House by the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state the business for tomorrow and next week?

We shall ask the House to sit to-morrow, when we shall take the Second Reading of the Trading with the Enemy Bill, and the Army (Suspension of Sentences) Bill, and the Committee stage of the Customs (War Powers) Bill. We shall then take the Vote for the additional men for the Navy, and the Lords Amendments to the Munitions Bill.

On Monday we propose, and hope the House will agree, to take both the Report stage and Third Reading of the Military Service Bill, and I am prepared to move the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule if the House so desires.

On Tuesday we shall take the Committee stage of the Trading with the Enemy Bill, and remaining stages of any other Bills.

On Wednesday we shall give an opportunity for the discussion of the Motion as to the blockade, standing in the name of several hon. Members.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state when the Prorogation is likely to take place?

I hope we may be able to take the Prorogation at the end of next week.

Resolved, "That this House do sit tomorrow."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

Ordered, "That the proceedings upon the Military Service. (No. 2) Bill, if under discussion at eleven o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

MILITARY SERVICE (No. 2) BILL

[ Progress, 19th January. ]

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 4.—(Short Title and Commencement.)

This Act may be cited as the Military Service Act, 1916, and shall come into operation on such day as His Majesty may fix by Proclamation, not being more than fourteen days after the passing thereof.

The appointed date for the purposes of this Act shall be the twenty-first day after the day on which this Act comes into operation.

I put this Amendment down in regard to a subsequent new Clause which I fervently hope may be adopted. And as to the second Amendment, I do not propose to move it, as it is down in the name of other hon. Members.

I beg to move to leave out the words "not being more than fourteen days after the passing thereof."

The adoption of this Amendment would leave it open to the Government to declare when the Act should come into operation. The reason I put forward the Amendment is that I think a period of fourteen days is much too short a time to enable the provisions of this Act to become known in the country to those who are going to be affected by it and who will be under a great many obligations. I think a longer time than that should be given.

We have had various expressions of opinion from the Front Bench and hopes that the results would be such as to make the Bill absolutely innocuous, and that the very fact of the Bill passing would achieve the purpose the Government are after, namely, to get the men necessary. If it is left in the hands of the Government to say when a Proclamation should be issued the chances are that it will be absolutely unnecessary that any Proclamation should ever be issued, and therefore unnecessary for the Bill to become operative. For these reasons I hope the Government will accept the Amendment.

The provision as to fourteen days seems to tie the hands of the Government, and would it not" be better to give a margin of a day or two? I hope that the Amendment will be accepted.

I very much hope that this Amendment will not be pressed. The hon. Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge) hopes that the efforts that are being made will render this Bill unnecessary. Certainly it will not prove, I hope, innocuous to the Germans. It is suggested that it might be more convenient to have sixteen days or eighteen days, or some other period than fourteen days. What is really important is that everybody in the country should know that the Act will come into force, and with as little delay as possible. The only question outstanding is whether the period of the Bill is sufficient to give due notice throughout the country. May I remind the Committee that this Bill is not coming as a bolt from the blue on an unprepared country I suppose there have been few measures about which there has been so much discussion or about which there has been so much advertisement as with regard to this Bill throughout the country. The procedure in issuing this Proclamation would be to take care that it is issued broadcast throughout the country. I do not believe that there will be a hamlet in which attention will not be drawn to the fact that this Bill will come into operation after a certain date. Under those circumstances I would ask the Committee whether it is desirable to leave the operation of the Bill open to the discretion of the Government. On the part of the Government I disavow any desire to be left with that discretion. With regard to the public, is it not better to let it be known at once that all discussion on this question is closed, and to be known, as I hope it will be known, that this Bill will be passed, notwithstanding the controversy which arose at first, with a very great measure of what I think may not inaccurately be described as general agreement, and that it is the decision of Parliament upon this great and supremely important question? For those reasons the Government are bound to adhere to their proposal. I most earnestly hope that the Amendment may not be pressed, and that we may proceed to what is really more important than this question.

I should like to explain why it is that although I had given notice of this Amendment, I did not move it. It was because, as nobody seems to have observed, it introduces a large constitutional question. It was pointed out to me by a lawyer that it would be quite outside precedent for this House to pass legislation and to leave it to Royal Proclamation to say whether that legislation should come into effect or not. That would in fact give to the Crown rights which have long ago been abrogated and which do not now really exist in practice. Therefore I think that in the form in which it stands the Amendment ought not in any case to be accepted. I should like to suggest that the time might be extended. I believe that by doing so the Government would be enabled to deal with actually putting the Act in force and to better prepare public opinion and make better preparations.

I support this Amendment. Yesterday I had representations made to me by influential people from the district which I represent, saying that in all probability the voluntary enlistment which is going on of men who otherwise would be conscripted is proceeding satisfactorily, and would probably be stimulated by the passing of the Bill, and that it might possibly result in there being no Conscription at all. They urged upon me strongly that we should have no date attached to the Proclamation, so that time might be given for the Army to be adequately recruited without employing compulsion upon anybody. I hope that that argument may be considered by the Government. We are not quite through with the Bill, and I am anxious to mitigate its operation, its cruelty to those who come under its plan, as much as I can.

I was quite prepared to hear the objections which have been put forward to the Amendment. I was not quite satisfied with the form of the Amendment, as it would leave it open to the Government to bring the Act into operation the day after it became law. If I withdraw my Amendment I would ask the Government to amend the Clause, so as to make it not less than fourteen days.

I would rather not alter the phraseology of the Bill, but I have no hesitation in announcing that it is our intention not to attempt to bring the Act into operation within a shorter time than that in the Bill, which is regarded as sufficient to enable us to take all the necessary steps.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, to leave out the word "fourteen," and to insert instead thereof the word "sixty."

4.0 P.M.

I suggest that this Amendment really meets the objection put forward by the Government on the last Amendment. If it is accepted, it will not prevent the Government from bringing the Act into operation on the date they now intend if they feel justified in so doing, but it will give the great advantage that if for any reason they think it desirable to postpone for a few days the coming into operation of the Act, they will have power to do so. I agree that the public generally are familiar with the fact that a Conscription Bill is before this House, but I entirely disagree with the right hon. Gentleman if he suggests that the public are familiar with the many intricate details of the measure. Some very important changes in detail have been made in the early hours of the morning, when no adequate report has appeared in the public Press. I suggest that the Government would be well advised in at any rate having the opportunity to ensure that full knowledge of the details of the Act is possessed by the country.

The Committee will anticipate my answer on this Amendment. The Government have deliberately made this proposal, and they intend to carry out the assurances which they have given from time to time on the subject. I ask the Committee to take it from me on behalf of the Government that we are going to do our best to see that this Bill, when it becomes an Act of Parliament, is so brought into effect as to avoid anything in the shape of surprise or of catching men unfairly. There will be ample time to make it generally known, and we must adhere to the proposal in the Bill.

Amendment negatived.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Right of Applicant to be Heard by Counsel or Solicitor.)

Any person applying for a certificate of exemption from the provisions of this Act, or appealing from the decision of any tribunal thereunder, shall be entitled if he so desires, to be represented either by counsel or solicitor or other representative.—[ Mr. King. ]

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

I have put down several new Clauses, and, as I have given them considerable attention, I look upon them as pearls which I cast before the occupants of the Treasury Bench.

I am so simple-minded; I never meant anything wrong. If I have offended the susceptibilities of any right hon. Gentleman, I wish to withdraw the remark. I think this Clause really carries out the intention of the Government. You have only to turn to the openings words of Clause 2 to see that it is not contemplated that in every case the application shall be personal. In many cases it would be difficult for the application to be made personally. It may be difficult to a man to prove that he is married. He may know that he had been married some years ago, but he may have lost sight of his wife and be in the unhappy position of not knowing whether he is married or not. Such a man ought certainly to have the assistance of a solicitor. There are many cases where men ought to have legal assistance. There are also cases where members of a trade union, making application altogether on the same ground, would put their case much better if they were represented by some official of the trade union than if they came up individually one after another. This Clause will enable that to be done.

This Clause is really not required. It deals with procedure, and that will be a matter for regulation. The point has been discussed on two or three Amendments, and we are all agreed that there must be cases where the applicant cannot appear personally. There are obvious cases, such as those of ill-health, or where a man is bed-ridden, or from some other cause is not in a position to put his own case. This is actually going on under the Derby scheme at present. Appeals to the tribunal are made by friends of the applicant, not necessarily immediately connected with him, but somebody to whom he appeals for advice and who accompanies him to the tribunal and puts his case before them. My hon. Friend wants to go further, and actually to authorise appearance by counsel or solicitor. In a House where there are so many legal gentlemen I do not express any opinion as to appearance by counsel, but I do not think we ought to do anything in this Bill to authorise the employment of counsel in this matter. It means a great deal of expense and delay. I think that all applicants can secure a proper presentation of their case under the Bill as it stands plus the regulations. We do not want to have theatrical cases attracting a great deal of notice; we want a businesslike inquiry, in which a man can put his case fairly and fully and have it disposed of as rapidly as possible consistent with justice being done. We believe that the procedure of the Bill will secure this; therefore the Amendment cannot be accepted.

The tribunals have full power to regulate their own procedure. I do not know whether they have refused to bear counsel.

This is a matter of great importance and ought to be made perfectly clear. I am left in some doubt after the statements of the President of the Local Government Board. I understood him to say that it was the intention of the Government to deal with this matter in regulations to be framed; while in reply to the hon. Member below me (Mr. Rendall) he stated that the local tribunals regulate their own procedure. The two statements are inconsistent. Is it the intention of the Government in their regulations to give permission for an applicant to be represented by counsel or solicitor or friend? It is most important that he should not be limited to a solicitor or counsel, because, especially in the case of a conscientious objector, very often a friend who knows the individual could put the case far better than any lawyer. At any rate, I think we must have this assurance, that an applicant shall not be prevented by any regulation made by the local tribunals from being represented by some other person at the inquiry.

There is really no inconsistency in what I said. Misapprehension occasionally arises owing to the fact that we have tribunals under the Derby-scheme which are already sitting and have their procedure already in existence, and reference is sometimes made to them. The fact is the tribunal is left to make its own regulations. I do not propose in the regulations giving the tribunals guidance and information as to their powers to say that in no circumstanes shall they allow counsel to appear before them.

It appears tome to be perfectly plain that the second Clause provides for this case. The tribunal can make no regulations deviating from the terms expressed in the Act, and entitling the application to be made by or in respect of any person. Under these circumstances it seems to me that the question of the Amendment urging that a man should be represented, if he chooses, either by counsel or by a solicitor, is quite unnecessary.

I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman desires to meet us on this point. It is quite truer as he says, that in the tribunals already in existence representatives are now allowed, but it is equally true to say that some of the tribunals are not allowing representatives. This arises for two reasons, which the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate. So far as he has been able to advise and control, he has always supported the representation of the workers on the tribunals. But that has not always been carried out, with the result that on many of the tribunals already in existence there is no representative of labour. The result is that when they come to determine their procedure they generally determine it without that due-consideration for labour that ought to be given.

The right hon. Gentleman distinctly said that he proposes to deal with this matter in the regulations. He pointed out that the tribunals themselves could determine their own procedure. What I am trying to urge is—and I think it can be made so by the right hon. Gentleman within those regulations or by his instructions—that representatives may be heard. That would be an instruction to them that a man could be heard, and that a man would not be ruled out because it was not specifically that man's case. Therefore, I do urge, if the right hon. Gentleman cannot accept the Amendment and meet us in this way, that in the regulations the words "may be heard" shall be inserted, and so get over the difficulty. I am absolutely certain that the right hon. Gentleman has no desire than to do other than what is right. But it is incongruous that in Leeds, say, because there is a strong trade union sentiment, the workers should have some procedure which is denied in a rural district because the activity of the movement is not so strong, and cannot make itself so much felt. That would be intolerable. At least we should have uniformity, and I hope the suggestion may commend itself to the right hon. Gentleman.

I quite agree with the argument of the last speaker that it is extremely desirable, if not necessary, that there should be uniformity in the procedure of these local tribunals. I gather from what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman that he does not propose that there shall necessarily be uniformity, but that each local tribunal may regulate its own procedure. As has been pointed out, some local tribunals allow representation on them and some do not, and that is a state of things which, I think, is intolerable. I confess, for my own part, that I am not satisfied that this matter should be dealt with by regulation. I am in favour of a proposal being inserted in the Act of Parliament so that it is made clear at once, and stands on the authority of this House, and not in consequence of the benevolence of a Government Department. If it is the wish of the House that the matter should be dealt with by regulations, then I would press that it should be done so as to make the procedure uniform. This is a grave matter. It is one of the greatest importance. A man is hauled up to be sent abroad whether he wishes it or not, and while he can, in the case of a few shillings, employ a solicitor or counsel it is suggested that here he should not be represented at all. I think that that cannot be allowed. It will lend countenance to the vulgar idea that the House of Commons pays more attention to pro- perty than to personal rights, and for my part I will never accede to that. If a man is allowed to be represented by one of those who generally represent labour, he may be neither a solicitor or a barrister, but at any rate he is a man who is habitually engaged in business of this kind, and by the time he has run through a few score of cases he will acquire the skill that is necessary to attain his purpose, and he will be at least as damaging an advocate as any solicitor or counsel that can be named. On the other hand, without such an advocate you may have a poor fellow, who has never been before a local tribunal—or, for the matter of that, any other tribunal—in his life, quite unable to manage the thing in the way a skilled person might. Therefore, in the interests of justice and fair play, every man who is called before these tribunals ought to be efficiently represented. I earnestly beg the Committee in the first place to provide in the Bill that the man shall be entitled to be represented by a solicitor or counsel, or, which is more important, such other person rather than the professional element. If the Committee is unwilling to do that, then at any rate I would press again that the right hon. Gentleman should issue a regulation dealing with this matter which shall make the procedure of the local tribunals uniform and shall provide that a man is to be entitled to representation in every Court.

I trust the light hon. Gentleman will meet the Committee and consent to the Amendment. I agree with the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. I think we ought to have representation either by counsel or a solicitor. This is really a vitally important matter for many men. There are those who have stood out. Many of them have stood out and not attested because of very strong personal reasons and considerations affecting their financial position and otherwise. I feel very strongly indeed that in a matter of this kind they ought to be allowed to be represented. As has been pointed out, apparently in minor matters you allow a man to be represented by counsel or a solicitor. I therefore earnestly hope that the Government will concede this point, and allow this representation to be in the Bill and not be a matter of regulation.

I have not hitherto intervened in this Debate on this Bill, but as an elected worker in the trade union movement for forty-five years, I, at any rate, know something of the feeling that is created when the door is shut against a person bringing a legitimate grievance before the responsible authority. Take, for instance, when an employer refuses admittance to the representative of an ordinary well-constituted organisation representing trade union opinion. When he refuses he creates more hostility and more strong feeling in the minds of the workers than anything that can be imagined. I earnestly plead with the Government that they will, at any rate, concede this point, and, if possible at all, include it in the Bill so as also, if possible, to remove the doubts and suspicions that will be created if they adhere to their present position.

I really think there is some misunderstanding. I sincerely hope the Committee will not put these words in the Bill, because, after all, this is not the first case in which we have had to deal with regulations of a very important character connected with a Bill which have had a far-reaching effect. It is not by any means the first time I have had to deal with this sort of thing in the capacity in which I happen to be at present as President of the Local Government Board. I know the mischief which follows putting into a Bill words which are read by many people, and received as if they were the actual direction of Parliament as the best course to be taken. In the interests of everyone, whether it be labour or capital, I hope the Committee will refuse to put these words into the Bill. I have said that this can be done by regulation. I have not the least intention of allowing it to be made impossible for counsel, or whoever is required by the applicant, to appear. The applicant can choose whomsoever he likes. He has the power under Clause 2 of the Bill to do that. He can appear by anybody. There is no limitation in the Bill. The regulation that I should issue will certainly say that any applicant is entitled to be represented by whomsoever he desires, and before his case is decided he is entitled to be heard.

Yes, certainly. It seems to me that the only point now outstanding between us is the question of uniformity. It is a mistake altogether to suggest that by putting words into this Bill you are going to secure uniformity for all the various tribunals all over the country. It is a very big question. We desire to secure what is wanted—that a man's case should be fairly and frankly represented by the applicant—for some of these cases are of the greatest importance to the man personally. It is not, in the slightest, the intention of the Government in any way to limit the rights of a man, or to say that he should not have what he regards as his rights protected by a full and fair hearing and a proper presentation of his case. It is not to be supposed, as one hon. Member seemed to suggest, that the Government are, by what I should describe as an unfair act, going to deprive the man of a right which undoubtedly is his.

What the President of the Local Government Board has said is quite right. I hope my hon. Friends will think so too. I think, for the moment, they supposed that the right hon. Gentleman was going to leave it to the local tribunals in each case to decide what their own procedure should be. That was what the objection was, but the right hon. Gentleman has made it quite clear that that is not his intention. If one looks at the last page of the Bill, and notes paragraph (5) of the Second Schedule, they will see:—

"5. His Majesty may by Order in Council make regulations with respect to the procedure of the Military Service Tribunals.…"

One of those regulations so made by the Order in Council would be what the right hon. Gentleman has just said. It is very much better we should not put into the Bill anything which encourages the idea that you want the legal or professional element in it.

I am not yet quite satisfied. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed, agreed!"] I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that it was to be permitted by the regulations for a tribunal to make rules entitling a man to be represented. But is it not also permitted to these tribunals to refuse it? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I so understood it.

Question, "That the. Clause be read a second time," put, and negatived.

On a point of Order. Might I ask if the next proposed Clause is not calculated to prevent recruiting, and to create an impression that people are to be shot right and left, but for the intervention of the hon. Member for Somerset?

NEW CLAUSE.—(Proceedings Before Tribunals to be Public.)

All proceedings before any tribunal in respect of an application for a certificate of exemption from the provisions of this Act shall be public.

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

I admit at the outset this is a difficult and somewhat delicate problem. There are some people who say there ought to be no right to the public to attend these tribunals, largely because matters of a personal and private business nature will come before the tribunals. For instance, the case of a conscientious objector may very often be of such a delicate and personal character that a man might naturally say that he himself would prefer, and other people might prefer, that this should be dealt with by the tribunal privately. Again, we have added to this Bill an exemption on the ground of special hardship in connection with a man's financial and business responsibilities, and a man's business relations, his financial stability, his personal relations to his family may all have to come up in a case like this, and it might be said at the outset that this sort of tribunal ought not to be public. On the other hand, there are a great many people who think that publicity in a matter like this is absolutely essential in order to get the confidence of the public in the tribunal, and I am sure we are all convinced, whatever our opinion may be as to the necessity or not of this Bill, that if these tribunals are to be set up they ought to have the confidence of the public, and be on such lines that their general action will be harmonious, and they will carry generally the consensus and support of the people of this land. I say that if those objects are to be attained, a general uniformity and harmony of decision, and also the support of public opinion everywhere, and especially in those places where this Act may be distrusted, where there is an industrial or other population which may have felt strongly a dislike and even a suspicion of this Act—there especially you want to see from the start that the tribunal is going to carry a consensus of public opinion. That is the important reason why I propose this Clause. I believe it certainly will be in accordance with the sense and wishes of the right hon. Gentleman, that in most cases, at any rate, these tribunals ought to be public. If he can assure me that that is his intention, and that regulations will be provided, with possibly special facilities for part of a hearing being private, that will possibly be effective. But whatever his answer may be, I think the matter is important, and I believe publicity in our Law Courts is essential to their having the support and respect of the public. It is with that conviction that I beg to move this new Clause.

I think this ought to be met in regulations, but I quite agree it is very desirable that the tribunals should not hold their inquiries in secret. On the other hand, this would not do as it stands, because there are many cases where, in the interest of the applicants themselves, it is most desirable that the inquiry should not be held in public. One can conceive many cases where the applicant would dislike intensely to present his case in public, where circumstances he would desire to be kept secret would be revealed to the whole public. Therefore you could not have this as it stands. My own view is to make it clear in the regulations that, unless for some good and effective reason, the place where the tribunal sits should be open to the public; but that would be a matter for regulations, and should be put in a form so as to offer the fullest facility for taking the case, which otherwise might be made very inadequately if it were known the public would become possessed of facts which the applicant desired should only be known to the tribunal.

I am sure all those of us interested in this matter are very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I understand he proposes to insert in the regulations that if the applicant so desires the inquiry shall be held in public. [HON. MEMBERS: "Private" and "Either way."] If the tribunals were open, and their proceedings were only held in private on the application of the applicant, then, of course, the public would suspect all kinds of things, because he had made application for his case to be held in private. Therefore, I think it would be better if the application were the other way round. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]

I hope there will not be so much suspicion as the hon. Member suggests as to the course to be taken. The object of the Government in framing the regulations will be to secure that there shall be no hiding away of these inquiries, but I do not think it ought to be on the application of anybody. The sort of words I have in my mind is, "That unless special circumstances of the case, etc., etc., make it desirable—and so on—that the inquiry should not be held in private, it should be public."

Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman leaves the option to the applicant as to whether it should be in public or not? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]

I understand the point as regards local tribunals, but, as regards appeals to the central tribunal, the proceedings ought to be always in public, because they always deal with special cases of importance and become test cases. Therefore, might I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman proposes to make different regulations for the local tribunals and central tribunals?

I say the same reasons which make it desirable apply. I do not want to tie the hands, where, in the interest of everybody, it is desirable that the inquiry should be held with closed doors. I can assure the Committee that in the administration of this Act there is not going to be any attempt to burke inquiry, but on the contrary, and that the proceedings should be open unless there are special circumstances against it.

Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and negatived.

The next Clause [ "Punishment for Desertion in Case of Person Deemed to have Enlisted "] is out of order. The following one [ "Non-Application of Section 154 (1) of Army Act "] ought to have been brought up as an Amendment to Clause 1. The one after that [ "Revocation and Variation of Orders in Council "] should be an Amendment to the Second Schedule. The next [" Vaccination and Inoculation "] is outside the scope of the Bill.

On a point of Order. May I respectfully call your attention to the Clause which you say appears to be outside the scope of the Bill regarding vaccination and inoculation? I took the pains publicly to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War a question on this subject only a day or two ago. I asked him what would be the position of men deemed to have been enlisted with regard to vaccination, and his reply was that this was a subject appropriate for discussion in Committee upon the Bill. Of course, I am perfectly aware that no Minister's answer can bind the ruling of the Chair, but I think I am free to assume that it was the intention of one of the right hon. Gentlemen—

My point of Order is that the Government when they introduced this Bill, or subsequently, intended to give facilities for this.

Might I submit that, as a person enlisting in the Territorial Force is in a different position with regard to obligation to vaccination from a person enlisting in the New Army, when you are dealing with a Bill which has for its object the compulsory enlistment of persons who are to form a pool out of which these two different Armies can be recruited, the question of what is involved in enlistment on that point is surely in order when discussing a Bill of this nature?

I do not think so. With regard to what the hon. Member for Somerset said, it may be quite correct that a Minister gave such an answer, but sometimes I. discover a lack of knowledge of procedure even among Ministers.

May I respectfully suggest that, as the Under-Secretary of State for War is in his place, he may be called to our aid?

Might I suggest that the hon. Member should put down a question, which I should be very glad to answer?

As the Bill stands, that every male British subject will be deemed to have been enlisted, might I suggest that the hon. Member should put his proposal in a form that every male British subject should be deemed to have been inoculated or vaccinated?

The next proposed Clause [ "Definition of 'Period of War'" ] in the name of the hon. Member for Somerset should have been an Amendment to Clause 1. The hon. Gentleman produces a large number of new Clauses on most of our Bills, but he does not appear to appreciate that he must not put down as a new Clause that which should properly be an Amendment to an existing Clause. The next proposed new Clause in his name, I think, is in order.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Statement of Special Case.)

A Military Service or Appeal Tribunal in England or Wales shall have the same power and be subject to the same obligation to state a special case for the High Court as a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, and the provisions of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1857, and of Section thirty-three of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, shall, with the necessary adaptations, apply accordingly.

Provided that, in Section four of the first-cited Act, the reference to the Attorney-General for England shall be construed as a reference to the Army Council.

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

I am very glad to see the Attorney-General in his place, because I think this is a Clause which will appeal to him. It is very important to note that it is quite possible to have a tribunal taking a view of the case, or a special set of cases, which is obviously hopelessly wrong. Even wise men take views of the law and of common sense, and even of facts, which are hopelessly out of accord with what other people would decide upon the same issues, and, therefore, I think it is in the interests of uniformity and harmony, and therefore of public confidence, that there should be some opportunity of stating a case and getting an appeal from any tribunal, either local or an appeal tribunal to the central tribunal. Let it be observed that this will assist the Army Council just as much as it will assist any aggrieved person. The Army Council, I hope, will make such arrangements that there will be a unanimous system and a set of decisions which will harmonise, but how is that to be attained if they get one set of tribunals in one part of the country giving decisions on a line which is quite inconsistent with the line taken elsewhere. Even if they get them to the appeal tribunals there is no reason why they should act on the same principle in different parts of the country. If you have this power in the Army Council of stating a case and appealing to the central tribunal, you will get a provision which I think it is essential to have. I hope I have made my point clear.

I am in broad general sympathy with my hon. Friend, and I desire to increase as far as possible the number of occasions on which there should be an appeal to the Law Courts. I doubt whether my hon. Friend and myself are not likely to find ourselves in a minority in the House of Commons as at present constituted on this point. I think my hon. Friend's object is an admirable one, but he could not have chosen a less favourable opportunity for developing it in detail. The scheme of local tribunals provides not only for a district appeal tribunal by which appeals may be heard from the local tribunal, but it also provides a central tribunal by which appeals may be heard from the district tribunal. Therefore, we have a local tribunal, an. appeal tribunal and a central tribunal, and the House has now most wisely made it possible, by a regulation, to allow counsel to be employed in the local appeal and in the central tribunals. Now my hon. Friend is proposing in addition that we should include the Divisional Court of Appeal and also the House of Lords. If I thought the House of Commons would be likely to accept this Amendment, I should conceal my objection to it a good deal more than I am doing. I feel my hon. Friend and myself, however much we should desire these things in the district tribunals, must recognise that for the moment the legal profession is not as popular as it ought to be in this House and elsewhere, and we must bow our learned heads before public opinion.

The new Clause ("Provisions with respect to dismissal of employed persons holding or eligible for certificates of exemption") standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) is out of order.

May I call your attention, Mr. Whitley, to the instruction which I had on the Paper designed to bring this Clause in, and which Mr. Speaker declared it was not necessary for me to move, because the question of industrial compulsion could be brought in?

I happened to be in the House when that ruling was given, and of course I do not admit in Committee any jurisdiction but my own. I would say, however, that I have referred to what Mr. Speaker said on that occasion, and it could not obviously apply to any particular Clause, although the hon. Member may have had that in his mind. Of course it covers quite properly such a discussion as we had yesterday initiated by the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division (Mr. Anderson) and the right hon. and learned Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon). With regard to the next Clause ("Moratorium in respect of civil proceedings and insurance premiums"), in the name of the hon. Member for Pembrokeshire (Mr. Roch), I think it is outside the scope of the Bill. I have given a good deal of trouble and consideration to that point, and after the consideration I have given to it, it is quite clear to me that a matter of this kind would require considerably more elaboration than the hon. Member has given to it, and probably would necessitate another Bill of equal length to this one. If a subject of this kind was admitted it would create a precedent for parallel subjects being brought within a scheme of this kind, and my mind is perfectly clear upon this point. This matter is no doubt of great importance, but it would have to be dealt with by a separate measure.

This is a Bill to make provision with respect to military service, and it places upon certain people in this country to whom the Bill is applicable certain obligations. The object of my Amendment is to give indulgences as well as obligations. In the terms of this Bill Amendments have been allowed and moved by the Government giving power for people being exempted for certain financial reasons. There have been allowed under this Bill for military service provisions to allow people to get exempted from military service. I am now seeking to move an Amendment to put these people in the position of being capable of military service. You have allowed the Government to move Amendments to exempt people, and I am to be precluded from moving Amendments which will enable people to serve. I wish to remind you, Mr. Chairman, of a ruling you gave on the 1st July in regard to the Munitions Act. In the OFFICIAL REPORT for 1915, Vol. LXXIL., you will recollect that you gave a ruling that the Munitions Bill was a measure to provide and to make facilities for the production of munitions of war, and it included the rather startling provision of a power to tax and take all profits, although there was no preliminary Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means. The point was taken before you, Mr. Whitley, and you gave your reasons for allowing what was a taxing operation of a very drastic kind in this way. You said:

"I think it may be described in this way: That these two Clauses contain an arrangement by which certain persons who receive certain benefits in the way of the relaxation of customs and rules will, at the same time, surrender certain financial advantages which would otherwise accrue to them, therefore it is in the nature of n contract, in other words, a quid pro quo." —[OFFICIAL REPORT. lst July, 1915, col. 2005, Vol LXXII.]

When you are placing upon people the obligation to serve, there is the quid pro quo that you would also enable your financial operations to be so suspended that they would get the quid pro quo. On the ruling you gave I submit that when the quid pro quo was given by trade union regulations you allowed a drastic taxing power, and now when a man is required to give up his whole personal relationship and all his obligations which he cannot fulfil, and which may make him bankrupt, you are not allowing an Amendment to be moved which will relieve him for the time being. For these reasons I submit that my Amendment is in order. I will further point out that so far as I have been able to examine the conscriptionist systems and Acts of Parliament of France and Germany dealing with this question, this is a necessary part of the moratorium for those who are called upon to serve. I submit that my Amendment, for these reasons, is in order.

My ruling is certainly not on the proposal that something of this kind ought to accompany the present legislation. I must not be taken to express any opinion upon that point, and I deal solely with the matter of procedure. On the two points which the hon. Member has raised, first, with regard to the Government Amendment inserted in the Bill in Clause 2 dealing with claims for exemptions on the ground of special financial business or domestic obligations, that of course is clearly within the Bill limiting, or possibly limiting, the scope of the Bill, and deals only wtih persons who might otherwise be liable. The present proposal of the hon. Member affects many hundreds of thousands of His Majesty's subjects other than those who are under the Bill, and who have had no notice when the Bill was read the first time and the second time that they were affected by it.

Would it be open to me to limit my Amendment so that it would apply to those to whom the Bill applies? Would you say that my Amendment would then come within the scope of the Bill?

5.0 P.M.

That is a minor point I really was not taking, but the hon. Member fails also on that ground. His Amendment really inflicts financial penalties, as it were, or at any rate it has financial results to hundreds of thousands of other people who are not otherwise affected by this Bill. That is the reason why I am certain that the First and Second Readings of this Bill could not have been said in any way to contemplate any such proposal as this, and that is why I say it must be a matter for separate legislation. The next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset [ "Provisions relating to the Defence of the Realm Regulations" ] is outside the scope of the Bill, and it is really a matter of administration. The same thing applies to the Clause [ "Provision as to Contracts of Service "] standing in the name of the hon. Member for West Leeds (Mr. E. Harvey). There is another proposal [ "Provision for Miners" ] in the name of the hon. Member for West Leeds which I think is covered by the earlier discussion we had on the Clause of the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King). The Clause [ "Saving for Person Attested" ] standing in the name of the hon. Member for Bradford (Mr. Jowett) fails on the same ground. It is outside the scope of the Bill. I cannot understand the Clause [ "Application of Privileges and Exemptions contained in this Act to the Case of Members of the Territorial Forces Enlisted for Home Defence "] standing in the name of the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Neville), but I do not think that I need trouble the hon. Member, because in any case it is subject to paragraph 2 of Schedule I., and, if the hon. Member will watch the occasion, he can raise it then; in fact, I have had an Amendment handed in dealing with this point, if I understand it correctly.

On a point of Order. May I ask whether the ruling you gave earlier in regard to the Clause put down by the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. W. Roch) applies also to the more limited Clause standing in my name [ "Provision as to Certain Legal Proceedings "]?

That is so. I did not take the point whether it applied only to those in this Bill or to others, because I had the bigger ground to go upon.

The decision which I have given covers the whole of the Clauses the hon. Member has in mind.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Register of Persons Enlisted.)

A register shall forthwith be made, by or under the direction of the Army Council, of all persons who are deemed to have been duly enlisted in His Majesty's Forces under this Act, and extracts from that register shall be posted on the doors of the churches and chapels of every parish with the names of all persons in that parish so deemed to have been enlisted.

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

This is a Clause providing that a register should be compiled of all persons who are deemed to be included in this Bill, and that extracts from the register should be posted on the doors of the churches of all the parishes affected, showing the names of the persons who, in the opinion of the Government, have been duly enlisted under the Bill. This is an attempt to meet in another way a difficulty that occupied a good deal of attention on the First Reading of the Bill, the difficulty of the want of notice. Any person may automatically become a soldier without receiving notice until it is too late. He becomes automatically a soldier if he falls within a certain class. He is then transferred to the Reserve, and he may find himself called up and have to go before a military tribunal to state whether he comes within the exemptions or not. He may quite conceivably, because no notice has been given him, find himself subject to very severe penalties without having known all the time whether he was a soldier or not. That is a very real and severe grievance. It is one which was felt by the Committee all through. I am not now dealing with the cases of exemption. I have principally in mind the question of exceptions, and there are very, important exceptions. A man may reasonably fall within the exception, but, having, in the opinion of the Government, been duly enlisted and transferred to the Reserve, he may find it too late when the Reserve is called up to find the proof he wants His case may be heard in a great hurry at a time of great emergency, and he may find himself actually transferred into the Army without having received beforehand any notice whatever. That is a real grievance which has not yet been met.

It was suggested in Committee that notice ought to be given to each individual person who is deemed to be included in the Bill, and the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill made the objection that a great many people would be without addresses and could not be reached and a great many would therefore escape who ought to be included. People might deliberately change their address and thus not receive the notice. I suggest that it is the duty of the Government, in order to get over that difficulty, to make out a register of everybody who comes within the Bill. I propose that the same procedure should be followed as that which is followed with regard to the voters' lists. There should be a list of the men who have compulsorily enlisted under the Bill. Then, if a man claims to be exempt, he will have the opportunity of making his appeal to the proper tribunal. It seems to me a perfectly practicable proposal, and, failing some such notice, all sorts of very serious mistakes may arise. A man may come within the exceptions, or he may actually be included by mistake. He may be of the same name as another man, and have been enlisted in the Army in error. The military authorities, again, may very well believe that a man is unmarried when all the time he is really married, and is therefore not within the scope, of the Bill. There may quite well be a mistake with regard to a man who comes within the exceptions in the Schedule. It is not very easy to state whether a man is over here resident in Great Britain for the purpose of education or for some other special purpose or not. A man who comes over in that way may easily be thought, improperly thought, to be liable to military service under the Bill. You are going to put very heavy obligations on these men, and it is at least the duty of the Government beforehand to say who they think are included in the Bill. Although my Clause may not be worded in the best possible way, yet it does provide one way out of the difficulty, because a register of this sort published in every parish would enable everybody to find out whether they were included or not, and it would be an advantage to the Government, because they would get the matter cleared up. If my Clause cannot be accepted as it stands, I hope, at any rate, that something will be done to incorporate the principle which it contains.

It is a little difficult to know what my hon. Friend expects to be gained by the procedure which he recommends the House to adopt. It really is not a very practicable proposal, and, unless my hon. Friend thinks that there would be some sacred advantage to be derived from having one's name published on a church door, it would not be in the interest of the men themselves, because it would be only advertising those who up to now have not thought fit to accept a duty which it is desirable they should undertake. The question was discussed in Committee, and my right hon. Friend came to the decision that anything of this kind was neither desirable nor necessary. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend will not press his Clause.

May I respectfully suggest that my right hon. Friend has not met the difficulty which I put forward, and he has not suggested how he is going to meet it.

It is the intention of the Government that each man shall receive notice, and that intention will be carried out. There must be only very few exceptions.

I cannot say that I am satisfied, but, as I do not wish to detain the Committee, I will not press this Clause further.

Clause and Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

First Schedule

Exceptions

1. Men who are resident in Great Britain for the purpose only of their education or for some other special purpose.

2. Men who are members of His Majesty's Regular or Reserve Forces or who are members of the Territorial Force and liable for foreign service.

3. Men who are serving in the Navy, or the Royal Marines, or who, though not serving in the Navy or Royal Marines, are recommended for exception by the Admiralty.

4. Men who at the date of the passing of this Act were in holy orders or regular ministers of any religious denomination.

5. Men who hold a certificate of exemption under this Act for the time being in force, or who have offered themselves for enlistment and been rejected since the fourteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and fifteen.

Amendment made: In paragraph (1) leave out the words "who are."—[ Mr. Long. ]

The Amendment—in paragraph (1) at end to insert the words "which in the opinion of the local tribunal justifies such exception"—standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for South Birmingham (Mr. Amery) is not a matter for the Schedule at all. It concerns the tribunal dealt with in Clause 2.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph (2).

I want to put a question with reference to the position of those men who have joined the Territorial Force for Home defence only. They are brought under this Bill by paragraph (2) of the exceptions. That paragraph, I think, clearly brings them within the scope of this Bill, and therefore all unmarried Territorials who have joined for Home defence only come within the provisions of the Bill, and it is quite proper that they should. What is the position of these men who have done patriotic service to the country in coming forward when they did and so releasing men who were able to go on active service? Are they to be put in the same position, or, at any rate, in no worse position than those who came in under Lord Derby's scheme or those who are brought in compulsorily by this Bill? There must be a great many men who joined for Home defence only who have just as valid reasons for being postponed or treated in the group system as men who have done nothing for eighteen months.

I recognise the validity of the point made by the hon. Gentleman, and I have some words to propose later on in the Schedule to deal with it. If the hon. Gentleman will consent to wait until that Amendment is reached it will be more appropriate that I should explain the matter then.

I should like to mention a point which has been put to me by a large number of men in the Territorial Force. They say they have no objection to taking the Overseas Service pledge if they are allowed the privilege of choosing the unit in which they will serve. There are a great number of the men who have been embodied from the date when the War broke out; they are in the Service for Home defence purposes, but if they are going abroad they would prefer to be attached to the Royal Engineers, the Royal Artillery, or some unit other than that in which they are now serving. The point they make is this. They think, after having been embodied all this time for Home defence, they are entitled to the right to choose, if possible, the unit to which they shall be attached abroad. I know the difficulty the Army authorities have, in view of the necessities of the situation, in putting men into special units, but I hope my right hon. Friend will keep this request in mind, because I think that, by giving it sympathetic consideration, he would be able to smooth matters a great deal in individual cases.

Perhaps it would be simpler if I read the words which I shall ask the Committee to insert at the end of paragraph (2), namely, "or who are in the opinion of the Army Council not suited for foreign service." In reply to what has fallen from the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) what he suggests is rather contrary to the desire usually expressed in the Territorial Service. That desire on the part of men who have served at home is that if they are to go abroad they should serve in their own corps. I shall later on move an Amendment which will simplify the procedure, but I may perhaps now explain what it is I propose. It is to give the Army Council the power of rejecting for foreign service and keeping them outside the scope of the Bill those who are medically and military unfit; in other words, all the persons who come under this provision, if the married ones are excepted, will be those who are admittedly militarily unfit for foreign service. The House will be interested to know that of the vast number who have joined the Territorial Forces since the outbreak of this great War only a very small number would be included in that category—a very small number both rela- tively and in point of fact. That confirms to the House and the country the knowledge, which they no doubt had before, how splendidly the Territorial Forces have rallied to the Colours. Beyond that, those men who have not hitherto accepted the Imperial Service obligation will have all the period up till the appointed day in which to take upon themselves the foreign service obligation, without coming under the actual process of this Bill.

In addition, although it is not stated in the words I propose to move, I am prepared, on behalf of the Army Council, to give an undertaking that those men shall be, wherever possible, and I think probably it will be possible in nearly every case, posted to a unit of the Territorial Force of their own corps. Of course, if it is suggested that that would not be in accordance with the wishes of some of them, then I think we might stretch a point in their favour and say that where a man expresses a desire to be posted to another corps an effort will be made to give effect to it. I cannot promise, of course, that it will be done in all cases. Indeed, where men desire to serve in corps like the Army Service Corps and the Royal Army Medical Corps it must be remembered that those corps are very popular and have been filled to overflowing for some time. But I would repeat that the number who will be affected under this new proposal is really very small.

I should like to put this point to the right hon. Gentleman, as I think it supports the point raised by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). There are large numbers of Infantry soldiers in the Territorials who are there simply because they have no alternative. There are many technical corps, such as the Mounted Machine Gun Service, to which they would like to transfer. Many of these technical corps only came into existence after the outbreak of the War. I hope the right hon. Gentleman's undertaking will not preclude the Army Council from allowing men who, in many cases, have the necessary technical knowledge from being posted to those branches of the Service for which they are best fitted, instead of being retained in the corps in which they are now serving.

There will be nothing to prevent that being done under the Bill. My undertaking is one on behalf of the War Office to act administratively, and the point is not actually covered within the four corners of the Bill. But I shall be very glad to receive sympathetically any suggestion the hon. and gallant Gentleman may have to make.

I should like to ask as to the position of men who have been in the Territorials, who have served abroad, have obtained their discharge, and have come back to this country. Will they or will they not come under this Bill?

Yes, they have served the time for which they signed, and they have not re-enlisted but have come home. They do not know whether they are to be deemed to be soldiers while at home here.

If my hon. Friend will look at the Amendments lower down on the Paper he will see that my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board proposes to deal with that point, and perhaps I had better leave it to him to explain the position when that particular Amendment is reached.

May I explain, with regard to the Territorials whose case I mentioned, that the difficulty up to this moment has been that the commanding officer has frequently refused to allow men to transfer. I quite understand my right hon. Friend will do his best for them, but they will be still up against the commanding officer. As was suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite these men are professional men, and would prove very excellent men for these technical branches of the Service. Will the Army Council see that commanding officers do not stand in the way. of their being utilised for the work for which they are best fitted?

It is our desire, of course, to utilise men in the best possible way that they can be used. I may point out it is very unusual for a commanding officer to stand in the way of a man now in the Home service who is willing to assume the obligation of Imperial service. If that were done, I think there would be a case for inquiry. If a man desires to take the Imperial service obligation, nothing like obstruction should be put in his way.

I take special interest in the Territorial Force, although I admit that the part I take least interest in is that which has not accepted the foreign service obligation. I have the privilege of belonging to a battalion which was in the Second Division of the Territorial Force. What is the real position of the Home service Territorial under this Bill? He is at present a member of the Territorial Force. Under the Act you say he is to be deemed to be enlisted in the Regular Army. But you do not say that he is to be discharged from the Territorial Force; in other words, before he has obtained his discharge from the Territorials he is to be deemed to be enlisted in the Regular Army. What will be his position until his group is called up? Is he bound to continue to serve as a member of the Territorial Force for Home defence until his group is called up? If he is, it Seems to be an injustice. If you are going to bring him under the compulsory: Clause you ought not at the same time to tie him to the voluntary obligation which he undertook in the first instance, otherwise you place him in the position that until his group is called up—that, at any rate, appears to me to be the construction of the Bill—he will be called upon to continue his Home service as a Territorial. He cannot be at the same time a member of the Territorial Force and of the Regular Army. Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly elucidate that point, which appears to me to be one of difficulty?

I thought I had made that clear to my hon. and gallant Friend. It will be observed that this Bill excludes all those who are members of the Territorial Force liable to foreign service. That takes away a very large proportion of the men. There is no doubt about that. Then the married men are also excluded, and that takes away another enormous section. Then we have those who are medically unfit and those who, in the opinion of the Army Council, are not suited for foreign service. That takes away another enormous block, and there is no difficulty about them. There remain only a few, I will not say a negligible few, but, at any rate, a very small minority with whom I have already dealt. They will have the next five weeks until the appointed day in which to take upon themselves the Imperial service obligation.

Not in their group, but simply by going abroad with a unit of their own corps if they agree to undertake that obligation. How many does the hon. and gallant Gentleman suppose will be left? I suggest there will be very very few, and these will come within the scope of the Bill. They will be discharged from their units—those who are fit for foreign service, those who decline and who are unmarried, and they will go into the general pool and be called up in groups.

If these men are discharged as Territorials, then it seems to me that their position will be regular, and the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman to that effect entirely meets the point. It did seem to me to be an anomalous position, under the Bill as it stood, to make a man a Territorial and a member of the Regular Force at one and the same time. If the right hon. Gentleman gives the assurance that they will be discharged from the Territorial Force, then that meets my point.

I do not think the point is fully met. I understand now what the right hon. Gentleman intends to do is to discharge these men and make them civilians, and they will be civilians possibly for many weeks, especially young Territorials of eighteen, and they will remain without any training all those weeks until their groups are called up. I think, in the interest of the public, they ought to be held to their service as Territorials until the time they become Regulars.

If a young man declines to accept the Imperial service obligation, that course may have to be adopted. It will depend entirely on the man and the occasion. The Bill does not prevent it, and it does not seem to me that the point presents any great difficulty.

I am sorry I was called away from the Committee and was not present during the whole of the speech of the Under-Secretary of State for War. I understand that the question has been raised as to the status of Territorials who have not volunteered for foreign service, that some endeavour to meet my hon. Friends who raised that question has been made by the Under-Secretary, and that they are more or less satisfied with his explanation. I desire to point out that I have an Amendment to the Bill later on which will have the effect of excluding from it those men who have entered the Territorial Force under an oath that they would bear service against the King's enemies within the realm. I propose to move that Amendment in due course if I am in order, but I do not wish it to be inferred from anything that has happened with regard to this Amendment that an agreement has been come to.

I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In paragraph 2, leave out the words "Men who are."—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, in paragraph 2, after the word "Forces," to insert the words "or who have been honourably discharged from such Forces."

On a point of Order. Have you not passed over a manuscript Amendment of which I have given notice?

I do not think so, but I am bound to say that hon. Members who take the risk of handing in manuscript Amendments at the last moment must take the risk of being overlooked.

I would call my hon. Friend's (Mr. Whitehouse) attention to the fact that I have on the next page of the Order Paper an Amendment in my name which covers one part of his Amendment. I propose to add to it the words "Subject to any decision which may be made hereafter by Parliament men who have been discharged from the naval or military service of the Crown on the termination of their period of service." I think that covers the whole of it.

There are one or two other Amendments on the same point, in the name of the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division (Mr. MacCallum Scott) and in the name of the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Pratt). The President of the Local Government Board has made a very fair offer—

I propose to move, in paragraph 2, to leave out the words "and liable for foreign service."

The effect of the Amendment would be to leave the Territorial Force in its present position.

On a point of Order. This is a somewhat difficult matter to follow, but does not the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for South Birmingham (Captain Amery), which I desire to move, come in here?

The hon. Member (Mr. Outhwaite) proposes to strike out the words after the word "Force."

My desire is to raise the question why the members of the Territorial Force should not have the same right to claim exemption before the tribunals as the men—

I now see that the hon. Member is moving, by way of manuscript Amendment, an Amendment which appears in the name of the hon. Member for East Islington (Mr. Radford). Therefore I cannot accept it.

Further Amendment made: In paragraph 2, leave out the words "or who are," and insert instead thereof the word "and."—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, in paragraph 2, after the word "Force," to insert the words "or of the Forces raised by the Governments of His Majesty's Dominions."

I imagine that these words were omitted because the draftsman omitted to take note of the fact that there might be in this country at the present moment men who are members of the Forces raised by the Governments of His Majesty's Dominions. It is, of course, clearly intended that they should be put on the same footing as members of the Regular Home Forces, and I therefore suggest to the Government that these words should be inserted.

I am obliged to my hon. Friend. It is an act of omission. On the part of the Government, I am glad to accept his words.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in paragraph 2, to leave out the words "and liable for foreign service."

This raises what I regard as an important question, not merely having regard to the number of men affected by it, which the Under-Secretary of State for War recently assured us is quite trivial, but because it touches the national good faith and the national honour. Those men who joined the Territorial Force did so on the understanding, sanctioned by their oath, that they would serve against the King's enemies within the realm. That was the extent of their service. There are probably many men in this Committee, of whom I am one, who long ago volunteered and took a similar oath. We bound ourselves to serve against the King's enemies within the realm, but took upon ourselves no other obligation. The matter does not rest there. Under the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act, 1907, the marginal note of Section 13 reads ipsissima verba before the Committee. Why should these men be sent abroad? [Laughter.] I can quite understand hon. Members who laugh, but I am sorry I cannot join them. I submit that there is a personal contract made with each one of these men, and that it is a breach of faith to violate it by the Bill now before us. When I say a breach of faith, I do not mean a Parliamentary breach of faith, such as the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary used to bring against the Prime Minister about once a week before he joined the Treasury Bench, but a solemn undertaking of the nation. There are two parties to the contract: on the one side the Territorial of whom I am speaking, and on the other side the King, Lords and Commons. I am proud of my country, and I hope that such a contract will never be broken. I am afraid that these words may slip through inadvertently because hon. Members do not understand or realise the position in which we are. What is the need of sending abroad these men—they are insignificant in numbers?

Let not the hon. and gallant Member arrogate to himself, as some hon. Members in this House have done, that they are the only persons who desire to end the War. I yield to no man in this Committee or elsewhere in my aspirations to the same effect. What I desire to point out to the Committee is that we must have a certain number of men for Home defence, and a large number of men for Home defence, and a number compared with which the number which comes within the scope of this Amendment is quite trivial. I suggest that we ought, for the sake of national good faith, to keep our faith with these men, and to apply them to some service of Home defence for which they are fit, which they undertook, and which they are willing to discharge. This is not a case of shirkers or slackers—words which have been hurled about much too freely in this House. It is the case of men who realise their duty to their country, who have volunteered for service in the Territorial Force, have spent their time and their money upon that project, and have done good service to the country. They are entitled to our gratitude and respect. Why should we violate an undertaking embodied in an Act of Parliament? It is very difficult to discover any reason which can be alleged in its favour. It may be said, as has been said again and again, that we are at war. I hope being at war does not discharge us from our honourable obligations. We are keeping our obligations carefully with regard to finance, and I hope we shall be equally honourable in discharging our obligations to our men. It may be suggested that the Coalition Government is entitled to disavow national obligations which no party Government would dare to do. My devotion to this Coalition Government does not carry me to that length. I cannot follow the course of that argument. The Government of this country, whatever it may be, is bound by the obligations incurred by its predecessor, and I hope and pray that the day may never come when, on the ground that to fulfil obligations is inconvenient, this House will be invited to depart from them. But there is no inconvenience in this case. This handful of men are needed for home service, and why, unless it be to break our national obligation and boast about it, we should ship them abroad, I cannot for the life of me see. I regard this as a great matter of importance, and I hope it will be so regarded by the Government. I am sorry I have not the words of the Act which sets forth the terms of the contract. I hope some hon. Member, in following me, will put those words before the Committee so that it may be understood clearly what we are doing, and we shall prevent a rash act of which we should afterwards be ashamed.

The matter would be indeed one of importance if there were any breach of faith in it, but although I listened carefully to my hon. Friend's speech—and it was through no lack of fullness in his definition of his views—I had great difficulty in seeing how even he could suppose that there was any breach of faith. I think he is labouring under a misapprehension. The obligation upon a man who joined the Territorial Force was simply that in consequence of his joining that force he should not be liable to foreign service. He is not. If he does not wish to volunteer he is put in the same position as anyone else, and the fact that he had joined the Territorial Force in no way increases the liability to go abroad. There is another point which has been dealt with by other hon. Members, and I think there will be great unfairness if men who had shown a desire to serve their country by undertaking these obligations were treated worse than men who had done nothing of the kind. I think my right hon. Friend has shown that not only can that not happen, but they are going to get advantages rather than disadvantages from the fact that they are in that service. In other words, they will be enabled to continue in the regiments to which they belong. It must seem to the House as a whole that it would not be fair to other people who have to be sent abroad if these men were not taken in their order.

I agree with what my hon. Friend (Mr. Radford) has said, though I may not share a good many of his views, but does not my right hon. Friend not think that after this War is over this secession from what a great number of people consider a pledge will have a very deleterious effect upon the Territorial Force? I may be wrong, but I honestly feel that, after having enrolled a large Territorial Force for Home service, if you break that up now you may very materially weaken your chance of ever again getting the same kind of Territorial Force. I want to put another point to my right hon. Friend. I do not like going back to pledges, but take the Prime Minister's pledge of which this Bill is the redemption. Does anyone really imagine that what the Prime Minister meant was that if certain results did not accrue, the members of the existing Territorial Force should be placed in such a position that, after having given voluntary service to the State, they should be compelled to serve in the Army abroad? I think that is a fair point to put and it ought to be met. We are trying to get through this stage quite amicably and we are raising points which are of real substance to many of us, and I invite the right hon. Gentleman to address himself to these two points, first, as to the effect this will have upon the Territorial Force in future, and secondly, whether this is necessary to fulfil the Prime Minister's pledge. These men have been doing a large amount of disagreeable work. They have been on all kinds of service, all over the country, and whatever they may not have done, hon. Members will agree that they have given voluntarily of their time and service to the country during these months, and are at any rate entitled to be treated in a different way from men who have never done anything. It cannot be said, for instance, that these men have not come forward. They have come forward all these months.

The right hon. Gentleman has said that the Territorial will be put in no worse position than the few men who have been brought under this Act. Does that mean that the tribunal will be open to them to claim exemption?

That being so, I do not wish to detain the Committee any longer. I wanted to be assured that a man who had objections to going on foreign service, and who had made some sacrifice to prepare himself for the defence of his own country, should have a right to plead his cause.

I should be very sorry indeed if there was any feeling in the House that we are treating these men unfairly. I had a discussion this morning for more than an hour with the War Office authorities in regard to this very subject, and, in addition to the points which have been made by my right hon. Friend, which showed that they are going to be put in a better position than others, we have arranged that the Army Council should themselves have the right to keep these men in the Territorial Force without the necessity of going before a tribunal, if they think they are not suited for military service. We all think it will not be fair, when other people are being made to go, that suitable men, because they have served in the Army and for that reason have done good service to the State, but, on the other hand, are likely to be useful to the State now, should not be asked to fulfil the same obligations as others. We really have considered this case with a desire to meet it fairly. I should be very sorry if I thought there was any force in the point made by the hon. Member (Mr. Radford), that when the War is over if, unfortunately, soldiers are still needed—and I think they will be—we should have difficulty in getting as good a class as we had before for the Territorial Force. The great bulk of the Territorials have of their own free will volunteered, and probably the majority of those who have not done so have some special reason which will be recognised. I am sure the result of this War will be to increase the popularity of that Force, and for that reason make it certain that you will get more men, rather than fewer, after the War.

The hon. Member (Mr. Radford) appears to be comparing things which in truth are not comparable. The contract which was entered into with Territorials before the introduction of this Bill related to the general law of the country as it existed then. The contract then was that they should not be taken overseas as Territorials, but with the passage of this law a new set of conditions and a new set of laws arise, under which every single man comes under obligations, whether he has had military experience or has had not. The hon. Member said he was speaking for the Territorials. I very much doubt whether many Territorials would allow him to say so.

I never said I was speaking for them. I said I was speaking for that small number of Territorials who had not volunteered for foreign service.

The OFFICIAL REPORT will show what the hon. Member said. I noticed the words. Taking the Territorials as a whole, while they were limited to Home service when there was no obligation upon any man to undertake military service at all, it is a very strong proposition to say that a man who in peace time is willing to undertake military service for home duties should actually be put in a better position, so far as foreign service is concerned, than the slacker against whom the Bill is directed. That would be an extraordinary state of things. The obligation for military service is changed by this Bill, and it would be an odd thing indeed if you were to except from the general obligation to military service men who are, in a measure, qualified to serve, because they have been so far patriots as to prepare themselves, to some extent, in anticipation of a war which had not then occurred. I believe it would be very difficult to find Territorials at present engaged in the Home service, once this Bill is passed and it becomes a recognised obligation on unmarried men to do their share of duty, who will so far dishonour the uniform they are already wearing as to say that they will stay at home.

6.0 P.M.

There is one advantage I see in the provisions of the Bill as it stands, and that is that at present a great deal of pressure has been brought to bear on men in the Territorial Force to volunteer for foreign service. I am not saying the War Office is directly responsible for it, but everyone knows that enormous pressure in various quarters has been brought to bear upon men to volunteer for foreign service. I know of cases, and I have no doubt that every hon. Member knows of cases, where men under that pressure volunteered who, in fact, ought not to have volunteered. There were good reasons why they should not volunteer, but there was no tribunal for them to go before and satisfy that they had these good reasons. As the provision in the Bill stands, it appears to me that there is this advantage, that all the men in the Territorial Force who have not volunteered for foreign service will be able to have the satisfaction of satisfying the tribunal that they have really good reasons, as most of them have, for not volunteering for foreign service. I think that there will be a very large number of Territorials, who at present have not volunteered for service abroad, who will welcome this provision in the Bill in order that they may make it clear before the whole world that they had good, solid reasons for not doing so.

I am very glad that the Government are taking a strong line about this matter. May I say, in reference to the speech of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), when he spoke about the Territorial Force, that I have been a Territorial officer for more than twenty years, and a commanding officer in the Territorial Force, and I feel perfectly certain that the Territorial Force as a whole would be furious if this Amendment were put in. There is no doubt whatever that there are among those who would not sign the Imperial Service form a number of men who ought to have signed it, and I can assure the hon. Member that the feeling is very strong among all ranks of the Territorial Force that, as there are these men still serving only for Home service, they strongly wish them to be brought in to serve overseas. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment said, "We must have men for Home defence." Surely he could leave the matter of supplying troops for Home defence to the War Office? He need not worry for one moment about that. There will be troops for overseas and for Home defence if this Bill is passed. We want to get this Bill passed as soon as possible in order to get the men. The circumstances have entirely changed since the beginning of the War. It is quite a different matter now that we have to deal with, and I am glad that the Colonial Secretary refused to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member.

Is it distinctly understood that these men will be sent out to serve in their own units? Something to that effect has been said, but I would remind the Committee that last year, nowithstanding all previous promises, a Bill was introduced to enable the War Office to transfer Territorials from one unit to another just as they liked. That Bill was introduced when we had voluntary recruiting, and it produced so much unrest in the country that recruiting in the Territorial Force practically dropped to nil, and it had to be withdrawn. I would like to know now that the conditions are quite changed if there is any possibility or probability of any such Bill being reintroduced or of this promise being maintained.

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was here when I spoke before. I gave an understanding that the War Office would endeavour in regard to men who volunteer to take the Imperial Service obligation upon themselves to post them to units of their own corps; I cannot say to their own regiments, but to units of their own corps. With that assurance I hope I have satisfied my hon. Friend.

If the members of the Territorial Force were drawn under the persuasive influence of the Colonial Secretary, they would be easily convinced that no breach of faith had been committed against them, but, as a matter of fact, as probably most Members of Parliament could prove to him, there is a widespread feeling that this is a breach of faith. The members of this Force say "We undertook years ago, and for years we have made sacrifices and undergone expense, to serve the country for Home defence. There are various reasons which have prevented us volunteering for Home service. Now you are going to apply to us compulsion to serve in foreign lands, although the reasons which prevented us coming forward before are as strong now as they were then." They feel that having enlisted under these conditions they should be free from the obligation to serve abroad. The Under-Secretary for War has told us that if we eliminate various categories the number of men available for service abroad and suitable for service abroad will be infinitesimal, Is it worth while to create the impression that the nation is breaking faith with its volunteers for the sake of getting a small group of men for whom you could find useful service at home? It seems to me a pity that we should spoil the effect of this Act by even appearing to do a thing which in the view of these men is not justifiable, and which in their view—and they cannot come under the influence of the speech of the Colonial Secretary—is not really honestly keeping faith with them. I hope the Government will see their way to accept this Amendment, because I do not think it will reduce the number of men for service abroad. There will only be a negligible quantity available. I do not think that the passage of this Schedule in its present form will really help the Bill quite so much as it would if it was eliminated.

I take the view of the hon. Member for East Islington. A very solemn guarantee has been given that the Territorials would not be sent abroad, and in order that the Committee may realise exactly what that guarantee was I will read the Section applying to the matter. I refer to Section 13 of the Territorial Force Act, which says:—

"(1) Any part of the Territorial Force shall be liable to serve in any part of the United Kingdom, but no part of the Territorial Force shall be carried or ordered to go out of the United Kingdom.

(2) Provided that it shall be lawful for His Majesty, if he thinks fit, to accept the offer of any part or men of the Territorial Force, signified through their commanding officer, to subject themselves to the liability.

( a ) to serve in any place outside the United Kingdom;

and upon any such offer being accepted, they shall be liable whenever required during the period to which the offer extends to serve or be called out accordingly."

I do not read paragraph (

"(3) A person shall not be compelled to make such an offer, or be subjected to such liability as aforesaid, except by his own consent, and a commanding officer shall not certify any voluntary offer previously to his having explained to every person making the offer that the offer is to be purely voluntary on his part."

That is an absolutely clear and definite pledge on the part of this House. There is no doubt about it, and it is a pledge for which value has been given, because many of these men have served for a long time in the Territorial Force, and have given value in connection with this pledge. It does seem to me to be a serious matter for this Committee to do away with a pledge of that kind, embodied in a Statute upon which men have given very considerable and very valuable service to the country. I hope we shall have some explanation from the Government as to how they view that pledge.

There was a very different state of things then from the state of things now. The answer, of course, is we are at war, and really because you say to a man, "You must take your chance with other men," is it to be said that you are therefore breaking your pledge? All you are saying is, "This man shall take the same chance as any other man in the British Empire. If he can show good cause why he should be retained for Home service he will be retained. He will have the advantage not only of a decision by the tribunal, but he will have the advantage also of a decision by the War Council." Under the circumstances, I would ask hon. Members not to press this matter.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 259; Noes, 27.

Amendments made: At the end of Sub-section (2) add the words "or who are, in the opinion of the Army Council, not suited for foreign service."—[ Mr. Tennant. ]

In Sub-section (3) leave out the words "who are."—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, after the word "Navy" ["serving in the Navy"], to insert the words "Merchant Service."

It may be said that by the very wording of this Sub-section these men may be recommended by the Admiralty for exemption. That is quite true. It might also be said that under Clause 2 any Government Department can if it so chooses recommend a class of men for exemption. But it would be infinitely simpler to recognise, as it has already been recognised by the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee and Lord Derby, that the men who are serving in the merchant service are absolutely essential to the prosecution of the War in their present position. If it would involve any diminution in the number of men who would be rendered available to serve in the military forces, as was indicated by the Colonial Secretary last night, I would not propose this Amendment. But I am convinced that Lord Derby was right when on the 19th of November he telegraphed to the Merchant Service Guild as follows:—

In the face of that it seems to be perfectly clear that the Government themselves are convinced that in the best interests of the country for the prosecution of the War the men serving in the merchant service and the sea fishermen around our coasts should be left as possible recruits for the Navy and to carry on with attenuated numbers the great business of our oversea trade for the supply of this country, and, of course, all the multifarious duties connected with our naval operations which have been already put upon our merchant service, who really now constitute a part, in effect, of our Royal Navy. I am glad to see that the right hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Dr. Macnamara) has come in. I believe he will agree with me that I am not overstating it in saying that the services which have already been rendered in a military sense by the merchant service in the prosecution of this War are really beyond price, and that it is very difficult to say at the present time where the Merchant Service ends and the Royal Navy begins. We have mine-sweepers, men in the merchant service who are engaged on patrol duties and other duties of that kind, which are not only of the most essential kind, but perhaps are among the most dangerous duties performed by any class of men. It has already been admitted that the whole of this class are better serving their country by going on doing what they are doing at the present time. That being so, I cannot see any reasons for leaving it to the chance operations of the Admiralty or any other Department of the Government. It seems to be much clearer to recognise the position of these men and to put them along with the Royal Marines and the Royal Navy, and in doing so to give a very well-deserved compliment to the merchant service, which has had all too little recognition, at the hands of the Government, of the immense services which it has already rendered during the course of this War.

I most gratefully subscribe to what my hon. Friend has said respecting the dauntless service rendered during the War by the Mercantile Marine. No tribute could in my opinion overstate the quality of the gallantry of the merchant service. That service may be assured of the gratitude of the whole country, which fully realises, I am confident, the splendid work it is doing. The way our merchant ships have gone forth upon their accustomed avocation, undeterred by the hidden menace of mine and torpedo, is one of the finest chapters in the story of the War, and history will so record. But there is really no need to specify the merchant service in this paragraph, which itself gives us full power to deal with the matter as may seem expedient. Further there are others that we may need, in the national interest, to except. There are men at work on transport, there are possibly the fishermen; there may be men engaged in auxiliary services for the Fleet not already directly in the service of the Crown, and therefore men we may wish by order to except. I am sure my hon. Friend will see that if we begin to specify, we must make our specification completely inclusive, and survey the whole field. Further, as a matter of form and drafting, I do not think we should divide the Navy and the Royal Marines, these old comrades in arms, by the interposition between them of the words proposed in the Amendment. For these reasons, I hope my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment.

I entirely agree with what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and I think there is one other possible objection to this Amendment, in the sense that it may be too wide. The merchant service includes stewards on passenger liners, cooks, and other men, and I am inclined to think, with the right hon. Gentleman, that it would be wiser not to press the Amendment.

I concur in the view of the right hon. Gentleman that this Amendment is not one which could very well be accepted. Everything which the hon. Member wants done will be done under the Bill. I would point out that certificated officers in the mercantile marine are in- dispensable to that service, and I hope that they will be left to carry on what is really national work.

I join with the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Members in their recognition of the splendid services which are being rendered to the nation by the mercantile marine, and I rejoice in the tribute given to that great service by the right hon. Gentleman to-night. I only rose to suggest to my hon. Friend that, after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, everything will be done to prevent men who are already doing national work from being taken away from it, and it is essential that a reserve for naval purposes should be retained, and they ought not to be brought under the provisions of this Bill.

I beg to move, in paragraph 3, to leave out the words "are recommended for exception by the Admiralty."

I submit that by the provision as it stands the Admiralty are permitted to recommend men to be excepted and put in the category of exemptions under the Act. In the Debate on the question of employés in Government offices and their exemption the Committee indicated very clearly, or a section of the Committee at any rate did, that they had strong objection to the Government servants being exempted; but this particular Section goes further, because on the simple recommendation of the Admiralty men may be made exceptions to the Act. We were told, in the course of the recent Debate, that the heads of Departments were wise and most pure men, and would never seek to prevent Government servants entering the Army under this Act. I am afraid that observation as to the wisdom and propriety of the action of the heads of Departments generally could only be made by Front Bench men or by Members who have recently come into this House. We on these benches have not always the faith of the Front Bench in the purity of motives of the heads of Departments. These gentlemen at the head of the Admiralty, under this provision, if unamended, would by a simple recommendation be in the position to prevent men from coming under this Act, and I venture to think that is not a power which should be given to them.

I hope my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment, which, if adopted, would be doing injustice to the national interest. It would affect the great body of men to whom I have just referred in replying upon the Amendment proposed by the Member for Devizes. As has already been indicated, fishermen, men on trawlers, and those employed in the mercantile marine on transport service, are all doing national work, and it would be an injustice to the national service to take them from it.

My right hon. Friend has not quite understood the point of the hon. Member's objection to these words in the paragraph. I quite agree that what he says is probably the case, that the men he has just described to us are doing national work, but, if that is so, why should not he expressly say so, and not give this power to the Department? The words are: "Men who are serving in the Navy, or the Royal Marine, or who, though not serving in the Navy or Royal Marine, are recommended for exception by the Admiralty." That is what the words say, and that is what they mean, and my right hon. Friend has not met that point. His old profession and his desire for purity of the English language, I take it, would lead him to think that these words have the meaning which I state, but, if that be not so, will my right hon. Friend say what the words do mean?

I can only repeat what I have already stated—that it is not intended in any way to interfere with anyone engaged on national service, like fishermen, trawlers, and others.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The next Amendment is in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone.

I do not know that I shall move the Amendment which stands in my name—in paragraph 3, after the word "Marines." to insert the words "or are men who hold certificates of competency as master or officer in the mercantile marine." Officers are a class of men who are doing national service, and are absolutely necessary for the work in which they are at present engaged.

I do not think that this is an Amendment that could be accepted, nor do I think it would be wise to insert words of the kind.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph 4—"Men who at the date of the passing of this Act were in holy orders, or regular ministers of any religious denominations."

I move this Amendment in the interests of the clergy throughout the country generally, in order to obtain a clear definition from the Government of what is the legal position of the clergy in the case of a war like this, where they wish to take part in military service, under the terms of this Bill. In regard to the clergy, the right hon. Gentleman probably has seen the reports in the papers that a petition signed by 1,000 young clergy of London was presented the other day to the Bishop of London asking permission to take up military service. I thoroughly sympathise with those young men. All the clergy in France, so far as I know, perform regular military service, and anyone who has served with British troops well knows the heroic and self-sacrificing manner in which Roman Catholic clergy devote themselves to the troops they happen to be serving with, and what a good example they set to the men. As to the Church of England, I think it ought to be acknowledged that some of the finest of our clergy are men who in peace time have come out as company leaders in lads brigades and cadet corps, and have proved themselves to be leaders of men, and I honestly say that what we require in our clergy are real leaders of men. We like to see our clergy real men, men who have lived with men, and know what men are. I feel perfectly certain that any clergyman or minister who takes up military service of any kind, combatant or non-combatant, will come back a finer and better minister than when he left. I cannot help thinking that these 1,000 young clergymen of London, of whom we read in the papers, truly represent the feeling of the majority of the clergy in this country. Though I think every one of them may rightly be given the right of claiming whatever exemption they may wish for, still I hope that we shall get a clear statement that nothing in this Bill debars them from performing military service whenever they may wish to do so, and as to what under the present law their actual position really is.

I am sure the Committee is obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend for the very brief and pointed speech in which he supported this Amendment. There is a great deal to be said in favour of it. It is the rule in other countries where compulsory service exists. I am not going to make a speech of any length in regard to it, but I think, considering the conditions of this country and considering the exemptions, it would be right to make this exception to the Bill. It is rather interesting to see the names of the hon. Members which have been put down in support of this Amendment. It shows a catholicity of spirit which is not found on many subjects which are discussed in this House. There is, of course, nothing in the Bill to prevent anyone who wishes serving voluntarily, and, so far as I am concerned, expressing my own opinion, though I know there are some who hold that, having taken that profession, clergymen should not take part in combatant services, I do not share it. I agree that at a time like this better service could not be rendered by any man, in my opinion, than of the kind which ministers of religion have undertaken—that is, in rendering good, faithful service, not combatant service necessarily, to those of our countrymen fighting at the front.

The rather unusual combination of names appearing in support of this Amendment, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, is not only an indication of exceptional catholicity but of extraordinary unanimity and general assent which I think ought to have commended the Amendment to the sympathetic consideration of the Government. Let me deal with any charge of inconsistency in supporting this Amendment. I have voted against this Bill on the First and Second Readings, and I have opposed the Amendments which sought to extend its scope, but if the Bill is going to become an Act of Parliament, then I think the last of all people who ought to be given special exemption are the clergy and ministers of the various religious denominations, because I am quite certain there is no class in the community who are so anxious to engage in combatant service as ministers of religion are. We were told quite recently by the Bishop of London that khaki was the garment of the faithful. The hon. Member who introduced this Amendment referred to the fact that thousands of curates in the diocese of London have made an appeal to the bishop to give them permission to engage in military service. I have the authority of the Anglican clergy in my Constituency for supporting this Amendment when they have unanimously passed a resolution in favour of universal compulsory military service, and I am extremely anxious that they should not be denied the realisation of their ambition. I am anxious, too, that this Amendment should be carried because I am quite sure there is no class in the community more whole-heartedly in favour of the energetic prosecution of this War than the clergy and ministers of the various denominations. During the last eighteen months almost every pulpit in the country has been turned into a recruiting stand. Perhaps the House would permit me to read some extracts from sermons which I think are far more eloquent in support of this Amendment than any words I might be able to command. For instance, I find that the Bishop of Norwich said quite recently,

"We and our Allies believe that we are fighting to maintain the cause of Christ."

What better work can the clergy be engaged in than effectively prosecuting this work for the advancement of the "cause of Christ." I find that the members of the Anglican Church certainly have not a monopoly of patriotism and enthusiasm for the War. The Principal of Rawdon Baptist College, a college in the North of England, said,

"Relentless war is our present supreme duty."

As "relentless war" is the supreme duty of the clergy, I therefore ask the House to support this Amendment. I find another Baptist minister, who enjoys the very appropriate name for a militant clergyman of Bosworth, said,

"Prussian militarism was the spawn of Hell, and if the followers of Jesus Christ did not take up arms against it, it would be to the everlasting disgrace of the Church of Christ."

The purpose of this Amendment is to enable the followers of Jesus Christ to take up arms in this very worthy cause. I find that you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, were recently at a meeting in Yorkshire, at which, to use the phrase which is annually presented in connection with Lord Mayors' banqets, "there were present the clergy and ministers of many denominations." On that occasion the minister of Headingley Congregational Church said,

"If Jesus Christ were in the world to-day in human form, He could not say 'Peace on Earth' until that awful conspiracy of two mighty nations against pity and against justice had been broken down for ever. The surgeon was the prototype of our Allies and ourselves. Our sister Germany was in the grip of a mortal cancer and our Christian duty was to cut that cancer out. God helping us we would."

The Bishop of Wakefield said

"He saw no hope for the future except in Christianity. God's Kingdom would not come unless we worked for it. It would come in the end, but we would be out of it, and like those ignoble men who might have gone to war and did not go, we would have made the great refusal when God called for His workers to help."

The purpose of this Amendment is that the clergy of the Church of England shall not be included among those ignoble men who might have gone to the War and did not go. The bearer of a name which until recently was well known and honoured in Nonconformity, the Rev. R. J. Campbell, said recently:

"War has been the means, more than any other agency, of bringing out on the grand scale the truth of sacrifice without which the flesh can never be made to serve the ends of the spirit and the kingdom of the soul be won."

The purpose of this Amendment is that these men may be given the opportunity of taking part in an instrument which on the grand scale brings out truth of sacrifice, and so I might go on. I notice a paragraph in one of our daily papers announcing the fact that a certain Wesleyan minister, forty-four years of age, had enlisted for combatant service. That is fair evidence of the fact that there is a strong desire amongst those ministers and clergymen not merely to talk from the pulpit and urge other people to go, but to be given the opportunity of going themselves. In that respect I think they set a very worthy example to some of the leaders of the con scriptionist movement in this country, because a minister of forty-four years of age is just about the same age as the hon. Member for East Northants (Sir L. Chiozza Money), who is so extremely anxious that other people shall volunteer for combatant service But does not appear to be very anxious to do that himself. It has already been mentioned that in no other European country which has a system of conscription are clergymen exempt. We are told that there are no less than 10,000 priests fighting in the French forces. Further, I fail to see a reason for this special exemption, because, if clergymen do not want to fight, then provision is made for them under this Bill for claiming exemption, and surely nobody would doubt the possession of a conscience by a clergyman or a minister. If he went before the tribunal and claimed a conscientious objection against killing his fellow men, I am quite sure there is no tribunal would refuse to give him exemption. I see no reason why this exemption should be inserted in the Bill, and for these and for other reasons which I might advance I heartily support the Amendment.

I do not think that this a matter to be dealt with in any light or frivolous spirit; it is really a very serious matter. There is no question about the clergy not being able to go or ministers of any denomination. When the hon. Member opposite was reading those extracts and saying why should they not have the opportunity to go and carry out their principles, they have got the opportunity to go. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Of course they have got the opportunity. The Bill does not take away the right of any man to enlist.

All the Bill says is that they shall not be compelled to serve, which is quite a different matter. The whole question is this. I am quite in favour of a certain number of clergy or ministers of any denomination going to the front as combatants if they like. I am not opposed to it. In my own battalion I have a second-lieutenant who was a few months ago a curate in London. He is an excellent officer and he has become a bombing officer. The question is, How many can be spared? [HON. MEMBERS: "All of them!"] Now we know exactly what is the meaning of the support of this Amendment. We know that it is animated not by any desire to increase the number of men available for the Army, but by bitterness against the clergy. I am not going to accuse the hon. Member who made that interruption of having any desire to increase the size of the Army.

If the hon. Member is referring to me, I meant all who desire to go or wish to undertake combatant service.

I am quite prepared to see a certain number go. But it is a much higher question than anything to which allusion has been made in this Debate up to the present. We all realise that we are living at a moment when material force appears to be all powerful. I shall be very sorry if, because of that, "we are going to deny ourselves altogether the blessings of religion at the present time. There never was a time when it was more necessary that the services of our churches and chapels should be maintained, when spiritual work should be done amongst the wounded, the bereaved, and the young men who are going out to the front, or when more was needed in the way of Army chaplains to look after the young men who join our Armies, and to go with them to the front. Our chaplains—ministers of all denominations are perfectly catholic in this—have acted splendidly at the front, doing work in the firing line, acting as stretcher-bearers and bringing the comforts of religion in their dying moments to young fellows, some of whom never thought about religion before. If you are going to compel every clergyman and minister of military age to go and fight, while that may add slightly to the strength of your Army, it is not the way to win the War. In the face of this tremendous outburst of the worship of material force which we see especially in Prussia, and in the countries inspired by Prussia, I still believe in a higher Power and in a Providence which guides and decides the affairs of this world. Therefore, while I take no narrow view, but would leave those who feel so disposed free to go, and let as many go voluntarily as can be spared, I say that if you are going to try to compel them you will take the very worst step possible at the present moment. I shall be ashamed of the House of Commons, of which I have been a Member for many years, and ashamed of my country, if they are going at this moment to take away from the higher call of religion men who are doing better work for their country where they are.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken with deep feeling was not just in his speech. He ought to have remembered that this Amendment was moved not from the benches opposite, but by one of his own colleagues, who is certainly not open to the charge of being an enemy of the Church of England, or of the Protestant churches of the country. To my mind the names down in support of this Amendment ought to be a warning to every Member of the difficulties that lie ahead once you commence to apply compulsory military service. In no democratic country in the world where compulsory military service has been applied have the clergy ever been exempted. They are not exempted in Italy or in France.

They are the only two countries that do not exempt them.

Can you name any other democratic country in which they are exempted? The only countries where they are exempted are Germany, Austria and Russia. What is the point of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's remark?

I thought the hon. Member said that in no other country were they exempted.

I referred to democratic countries. That is the universal experience as far as I know in democratic countries. I am no supporter of applying compulsory military service to the ministers of any church; but I am against compulsory military service in this country altogether. If you are going in for compulsory military service in a democratic country you are bound to include the clergy, because you will find it impossible, once the system is made general, to set up a privileged class. There is one thing against which I must really protest. It is nothing short of indecency to see ministers of religion both in this country and in Ireland clamouring for Conscription, while at the same time they insist that it shall not be applied to themselves. Against that I think we are entitled to protest. I make no complaint of a minister of the Church of Christ mating strong war speeches, though I think on the whole it would perhaps be better if he left that to laymen, but I do not think it is decent or fair for any man belonging to a class who claim exemption from compulsory military service to get up and clamour that it should be applied to others.

Although I have always been a strong opponent of Conscription, I supported the Second Reading of this Bill, but I did it only under the stress of the military requirements of the country. I feel that this proposal is a weakness in the Bill. I agree that if we claim citizenship all members of the community ought to come in under the Bill; there ought not to be any exemptions whatever. The last part of this paragraph refers to ministers of religion. Although I am a strong Free Churchman, I cannot for the life of me see why they should be omitted if they are unmarried and under the age of 41. We Free Churchmen always claim that our ministers are pure laymen. They themselves s claim to be laymen. On platform after platform I have heard them claim all the rights of citizenship because they are nothing more nor less than laymen. They do not claim to exercise any priestly function whatever. If these young men are left outside the Bill why should not local preachers and deacons be omitted? Our deacons and local preachers are doing good service, and if they are doing good service they have an equal claim to be outside the scope of the Bill. I know the service which many of our ministers are rendering as chaplains. I know that they are ready to do every possible service. If these men have conscientious objections their case is provided for and they can make application on that account. I am on a committee which is looking after the appointment of chaplains, and I have heard soldiers from the front say that nothing riles them more than seeing strong able-bodied men come to preach to them when they ought to be shouldering the bayonet themselves. This provision is a weakness in the Bill, because if we believe that this is a holy war in a righteous cause we ought to be ready to do our duty in this respect. I would therefore ask the Government to withdraw the paragraph from the Bill.

There may be a considerable number of Members who had a great deal of sympathy with the Amendment, but I cannot help thinking that the speech of the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) must have done much to destroy that sympathy. To my mind it was impossible to listen to that speech and mark its tone without feeling that my hon. and gallant Friend would have been much better without the support of the hon. Member for Blackburn. The impression made by that speech has, I think, been accentuated by the admirable speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dudley (Colonel Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen). I do not think that anyone can have listened to that speech without admiration, and without appreciating that what he said was moved not by mere sentiment, but by a depth of feeling which in itself does a great deal to secure the efficiency of an Army, and to secure that the men of that Army shall be animated by the highest of all motives—a motive which has always in the past, as it will in the future, carried men to victory. At present it is perfectly open to clergymen to join the Army. A great many clergymen of the Church in Scotland are now serving in the Army. I think it is highly desirable that the clergy in England should in suitable cases be encouraged to join the Army. There is nothing better in the interests of the Church, in the interests of religion, and in the interests of the country, than that clergymen should prove themselves men amongst men, and stand shoulder to shoulder with their fellow countrymen in this great crisis. The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) referred to the speeches made by our clergy. Where they believe with the immense majority of their fellow countrymen that this is a war for the right and for the cause of justice our clergy are absolutely in the right in advocating from the pulpit that there should be taken any measure which is necessary to bring that war to a successful conclusion. I do not, however, think it is desirable that compulsion should be employed in the case of the clergy either of the Church of England or of any of the other Churches of this country.

I am not going to argue the whole question of compulsion. It is right and proper that the clergy should be at liberty to volunteer. They can do so, and no one proposes to interfere with that. I think we ought to leave the matter as it stands.

I shall endeavour in a word or two to say why I cannot support the Amendment. I should like to call the attention of the Committee to the fact that the principle here involved is precisely the same principle involved in the case of the conscientious objector whose case was discussed yesterday. The case for the exclusion of the clergy and ministers of religion was very ably stated, I think, by a very distinguished and honoured man, the Rev. William Temple, in an early stage of the War. He said the reason the clergy cannot take part in the combatant forces in this War is because they are the representatives—I am paraphrasing his words, but I believe I am repeating their sense—they are the official representatives of a great international society which follows the teaching of Christ, and that the teaching of Christ is contrary to war; therefore the official representatives of this international society cannot themselves bear arms. What I have to say is that I believe Mr. Temple correctly stated the case, and that the case as stated applies not only to what he called the official representatives of Christianity, but also to all other conscientious objectors—to all other followers of the Christian religion who believe that it would be contrary to their conscience to take part in war. I only regret that the great authority I have quoted is now using his influence in favour of Conscription. The fact that the clergy are exempted—as I believe properly exempted from this Act—is a justification for the exemption on the same grounds of all conscientious objectors to the bearing of arms.

I rise to raise a point in regard to the Anglican clergymen alone, who, we must remember, are not represented, and cannot by law be represented, at all in this House.

With regard to that remark, all this girding at bishops and clergymen of the Established Church belongs to another age. It is out of date; it is stupid and ill-informed, if it is not something worse.

The right hon. Gentleman and I have been in the House for a very long time, and I am sure he does not want to misunderstand me. I have not the slightest desire to gird at bishops, or to do anything of the kind. I only wanted by my small interruption to show that equality is obtained by their presence in the other House. It was alleged that they were not entitled to be here.

I accept my hon. Friend's explanation in the spirit in which it is offered. What I wish to put is the point—and I put it with great diffidence in the presence of my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh University (Sir R. Finlay), who is probably less acquainted with the law relating to the Anglican clergy than he is to the law relating to the Scottish clergy—that there is considerable ground for saying that by ecclesiastical law, at all events, the Anglican clergy are debarred from bearing arms. It is clear that canon law is very emphatic upon the point. The old law of tenures made it quite clear that the clergy could not be called upon to do what was called "Go with the King in his wars." That was still the law when Sir Edward Coke wrote his Commentaries upon Tenure. We have the case of the Bishop of Meaux, who was captured by Richard I. in a full suit of coat-armour, and when the Pope interceded for his life King Richard is said to have sent the Pope his suit of armour and to have inquired, "Is that the coat of your son for whom you are pleading?" My view is that some kind of Amendment is wanted here, unless you are to leave the clergy as this Bill will leave them. For my part I think the clergy, if they wish to go, ought to go. Perhaps it is better not to compel them. At present there is a kind of legal disability which is probably that which the bishops were giving effect to when they put difficulties in the way of their going. Of course, there is also the other difficulty which is that their presence, as the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley put it, is very much wanted in their actual official places. It would be very hard upon the clergy if it were not thoroughly understood that this exemption was not put into the Bill at their instance, or at the instance of the hierarchy. I think it might be desirable upon Report, or some subsequent stage, to have words which shall relieve the clergy of this mediæval disability, which certainly, as a disciplinary matter, is probably still binding upon, them.

I would just like to draw attention to the extraordinary change which has come about since yesterday, when we were discussing the case of men who had conscientious objections to killing and taking part in warfare, and whose observations on the teaching of Christ met with sneers from the other side so often. When my hon. Friend the Member for East Leeds (Mr. E. Harvey) was putting his point I think it was the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Dudley who made an interjection.

I did nothing of the kind. I do not know what the hon. Member means.

Perhaps I should not credit the hon. and gallant Gentleman with the observation; it was perhaps the hon. Member sitting beside him, and I withdraw so far as the hon. and gallant Gentleman is concerned. I was not going to refer to the interjection, but the interjection when my hon. Friend was speaking was, "Would you not defend your wife?" The interjection was evidence of the spirit which animates hon. Members opposite, and that again and again has suggested that the man who puts forward a conscientious objection is essentially a hypocrite or a coward, or a canting hypocrite. A change has come over the scene. The hon. and gallant Member for Dudley has put forward a conscientious and highly-principled view, basing the exemption of the clergy from the operation of this Act on the ground of the great religious duties that they are performing in the community. I would that they were, to my mind, performing those great religious duties, and that they were to-day appearing more as the servants of Christ. In supporting this Amendment I do so simply because I think that we ought to get equality of treatment. A special privilege under this Act is being granted to the clergy and ministers of religion. On what ground should special exemption be granted? On the one side it is said that they are a class rendering particularly beneficial services to the State. No one can say that at this time the clergy or ministers of religion as a class are rendering great or special services to the State. Is the exemption suggested because the clergy and ministers are a class or organisation who are opposed to war and to the taking of life, and that consequently any individual member of that society objects to war and the taking of life? We know that that is not the ground of the exemption of the clergy, because they are preaching up and down the length and breadth of the land, not "Thou shalt not kill!" but "Thou shalt kill!" The Venerable Archdeacon Wilberforce, who reads the prayers in this House, at the beginning of the War, preaching in St. Margaret's Church, said—I think I can give almost his exact words—"To kill Germans is a divine service in the fullest acceptation of the term."

It is very obvious that Archdeacon Wilberforce and most of the clergy who agree with him that killing Germans is a divine service cannot expect to be exempted on the conscientious ground of being opposed to the taking of life. There is a leading minister in my Division who made a speech not long ago, in which he said that if Christ came to the world to-day he would expect to see him using a bayonet. That is a view held in all denominations. We find, too, that very often at meetings held for the purpose of discussing the question of peace that a prominent part is taken by the clergy in the disturbances. At a meeting which was held lately, and at which there was a disturbance, a clergyman came forward and got a hearing for the speakers. But then he was a man who had been at the front and had seen something of the War. So the claim for special exemption cannot be set up by the clergy on the ground that as a class and organisation they object to the taking of life, that they have conscientious scruples, or that they are rendering particular service to the State. They ought to be merged in the whole community, and those of them who have conscientious objections ought to go along with the other members of the community who are similarly situated and claim exemption before the tribunals. I hope there will be many of them. I would like to see them going with the others, because of the view which is wrongly held that those who are opposed to war and desire in a humble way to follow the teaching of Christ are only cowards unless they are canting hypocrites.

I shall appeal to the Committee to take a Division if we are to have one. I do not propose to enter into the broader aspects of the case which have been debated with dignity and reverence this afternoon. All I want to say is that it is extremely difficult, in debating a question of this kind, to avoid passing from the direct issue, namely, whether or not clergymen and ministers of religion shall or shall not have exemption, to wider questions which rapidly become controversial, and may easily lead us into debate of a bitter character, which I think it is of vital importance we should, if we can, avoid. It has been said that the clergy ought to go because they can be spared. I am not in a position to speak as to the facts regarding ministers of other denominations, but I do know as a simple fact that, as regards the clergy of the Church of England, there is at this moment the greatest possible difficulty to find the curates or the younger clergymen to do the work of chaplains here at home or in the field, so that I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield that no impression must be allowed to go forth from this Debate that these words in the Bill are due to any desire on the part of the younger clergy to take shelter behind some legal provision of this kind. The difficulty has been to help them to decide what their attitude shall be, these men having been torn by a conflict in their own hearts as to what they regard as their duty to fight with their fellow men in France for our liberty, and their duty to obey what they believe to be the law of their Church. Their difficulty has been a real one.

There are none of them more than we need, and badly need, for the work they do in the field and at home, and I venture with great submission, and very humbly, to say just this to the Committee. We know, every one of us, that our Empire and our people are passing through the valley of the shadow of death, that the agony upon us all, collectively and individually, is so awful at times when the losses come home to us, that I believe we all feel as we have never felt before probably in our lives the need amongst us of those who by their cloth, their training, their professional duty, are constantly there to inspire us with a faith and a hope of which we might be deprived if we were left to our own resources. I do not believe that any good will come, if I may respectfully say so, by further debating this question. The Government have deliberately made this proposal, and they adhere to it. The case of those who do not believe in it has been put, and I trust the discussion will not be further prolonged.

I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In paragraph 4, leave out the words "who at the date of the passing of this Act were."—[ Mr. Long. ]

On a point of Order. It seems to me that my Amendment, to insert the words "or members of a teaching religious order or ecclesiastical students," which is on the Paper, is in a wrong position, and, instead of following the Amendment which stands in the name of the President of the Local Government Board, it should precede it.

The hon. Member is quite correct. I have observed that, and was going to bring it to the attention of the Commitee when we reached the point; but I think that the hon. Member will see that part of his proposed Amendment was dealt with yesterday.

The following Amendment was on the Paper in the name of Mr. E. HARVEY: In paragraph (4), after the word "were" ["passing of this Act were in holy orders"], to insert the words "members of religious orders or."

I put down this Amendment with a view to including, along with clergymen and ministers, members of religious orders, having in view especially the old religious orders, more particularly the lay brethren of the Benedictines and Franciscans, because I feel members of these orders stand for a very great principle which the Church has always maintained. Even throughout the troubled Middle Ages these orders stood as cities of refuge and little islands of peace in the midst of a troubled world, maintaining the full ideal of the life of peace, and I think, if there is a privilege claimed for ministers on account of their very sacred calling, it should be shared by members of these ancient orders who have been steadfast to this beautiful ideal, contributing by so doing to the good of the world. I earnestly hope that respectful consideration may be given to their claim. It has been pointed out to me that the words are vague, and that it would be very difficult to give the proper legal significance to the words "members of religious orders," and, therefore, I make the appeal that their position may be considered, and, in view of the technical difficulty, and so as not to waste the time of the Committee, I will not even formally move the Amendment, but will content myself with the appeal.

With regard to the Amendment of the hon. Member for West-meath, it contains two points—"members of a teaching religious order or ecclesiastical students." The first has just been dealt with by the hon. Member for West Leeds. I do not know whether the hon. Member is satisfied on that point?

The second relates to ecclesiastical students. I think that point was raised yesterday on Clause 2.

Even though it was dealt with yesterday in the body of the Bill, is it not competent to have it included in the Schedule? Besides, some time has elapsed since its consideration.

I must point out to the hon. Member that the proceedings of the Committee are as a whole, although they may occupy several days and nights, and a thing once disposed of ought not to be raised again.

It might well have been the intention of the Government not to include it in the Bill, and yet to include it in the Schedule.

If I may say so, I think the hon. Gentleman is technically right, and that it is technically a different question here. All that I would add is that the matter must not be debated over again, but I think that he is entitled to move it here.

I beg to move, at end of paragraph 4, to insert the words "or members of a teaching religious order or ecclesiastical students."

The grounds that made it impossible to accept the first part of the Amendment were those among others mentioned by the hon. Gentleman who did not move his Amendment. It is quite obvious it is not possible to get words which would not lead to endless trouble, and I am sure my hon. Friend below the Gangway was right in taking that view. As regards the second part of the hon. Member's Amendment, he will remember that when there was something before raised on the same lines the Government undertook to bring in an Amendment on Report dealing with people who have been trained to certain work. That, I hope, will cover the hon. Member's point. I trust he will be satisfied with that explanation.

Might I ask the Government and Committee to consider this point? If by any contrivance on Report students are to be exempted from this Bill, will it not be necessary to exempt those who teach them?

May I ask whether the case of students in Nonconformist colleges is included?

I beg to move, after parapraph 4, to insert as a new paragraph,

"5. Men who have left or been discharged from the Naval or Military Service of the Crown in consequence of disablement or ill-health (including officers who have ceased to hold a commission in consequence of disablement or ill-health), and, subject to any provision that may hereafter be made by Parliament, men who have been discharged from the Naval or Military Service of the Crown on the termination of their period of service."

It was apparent that, as the Bill stood, it would include men who had been discharged from the Army after their service in consequence of their wounds or disablement, and we found also that, as the Bill stood, it would include men who had completed their service and received their discharge and had now become civilians. It would have been a gross injustice to impose compulsory service upon men who had voluntarily undertaken, and performed admirable, loyal, and, in many cases, heroic service for their country, and still more upon those who by their wounds or illness had suffered disablement. Therefore, by these words, they are brought within the exemptions.

From what I can see by the words on the Paper, the cases dealt with are those of disablement or ill-health, including the same reasons in the case of officers. What I want to ask, and what I hope may be made quite clear, is whether by deliberately stating the two reasons, disablement or ill-health, any other adequate reason is excluded. Are those words exclusive words? I will give the right hon. Gentleman one case I have in my mind to show what I mean. There have been a number of men since the War broke out who have been discharged from the Army with a good character, but for the reason which is expressed in military terminology that they cannot be made efficient soldiers. One man whom I know very well has been discharged for that reason, and he was asking my advice as to whether he should attest again, and I did not venture to give him any advice. But he said, "If I do attest again, I am absolutely certain to be accepted by the doctor who examines me, and it is only when I have been in the Army for a month or two that the particular weakness I have develops, and it finds me out and I have got to give in." That man is sent out of the Army, discharged because he cannot be made an efficient soldier. His character is all right, and he can go back into civilian life. I think the words used here, "disablement or ill-health," include a case of that kind, which ought to be covered. I think the President of the Local Government Board will see that that is a fair point to put, that the words which ought to be used ought to be inclusive of any adequate reason why a man should be discharged.

That point had also occurred to me, but in connection with another class of men who, I think, ought to have been considered—I mean the men who have bought their discharge. I have two cases of the kind in mind of men who have bought their discharge from the Army after a considerable period of time, and for what I think are quite sufficient reasons. I do not think those men ought to be conscripted. After the words "ill-health" I think you ought to put "or some other sufficient reason," which would bring in all these various reasons.

I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman heard the point raised by my hon. Friend, and if he did no doubt he will consider it. I do not know whether the words "termination of the period of service" will cover the point where men cannot be made into efficient soldiers.

Those words do not include the case of men who join the Army and who are discharged on the ground that they would not make good soldiers. I raised that question with the War Office, and their view is that while in the early days of the New Army it was extremely difficult, owing to the enormous pressure of recruits and the absence of officers or nor-commissioned officers, there were a great many cases where men were discharged who ought to have been kept. Therefore I think they should be recovered, and every effort should be made to remove from them the stigma that they have been described as unfit for military service, and they will come under the operation of this Bill.

I want to give a particular case that occurred to me. Does this provision mean that a man who served for three years a certain number of years ago, whose total reserve period elapsed shortly before the War, and who was therefore still in the prime of life and had only done three years of peace service and was never called up as a Reservist, will be entirely exempted? An enormous majority of men of that class came forward before the commencement of the War, and if there should be such cases they ought not to escape when a man who at the end of six years before the termination of that ser- vice with a longer period of service has no such exemption. I should have thought that the real hardship is in the case of men having served in peace and been called up as Reservists and finish the whole period of their liability during war; that is a far harder case than the men who have served a short term of service who are still in the prime of life and who, because they served three years in time of peace some thirteen or fourteen years ago, are now exempted.

I quite agree that there are considerable difficulties, but does the right hon. Gentleman not appreciate the point that a man of the kind I have mentioned will again break down from a physical point of view, and the Government and the country will be involved in payments which are accumulating in a great many of these cases. There are a great number of men perfectly willing to fight and to join, and who are capable of performing ordinary duties, but when put through the exercises of the Army and sent abroad to do the strenuous work of the campaign they are so unfit that they are bound to come out of the Army. Those men who have already been discharged for that reason I do not want the Government put to the trouble of training again.

Hon. Members who have raised special cases I am sure will appreciate that it is extremely difficult to meet every exceptional case. The one raised by the hon. Member for South Birmingham (Captain Amery) is undoubtedly a very hard case where a man has done his service for a very short period of three years and has never been called out; he has discharged his duty very lightly as compared with the man who has put in a longer period of service. Then there is the case raised by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), which is very hard, not only upon the individual, but also upon the State. The individual is extremely anxious to go, and his own energy and enthusiasm probably contribute to the breakdown that inevitably follows, and he is unable to stand the strain of military duties. He has cost the State a large sum for the number of days he has been training. I should not like to promise that the Government will find words to deal with all those cases, but we admit that they are real, genuine cases which ought to be met, and if I can find words, with the consent of the War Office, I will endeavour to deal with them.

I know a case that occurred in which the War Office and the country has been put to great expense because of the insufficient testing of the man when he was first examined. A man goes into a small room and he is examined. That man may have a heart strong enough to last him for the rest of his life in an ordinary occupation, but in order to properly test him for the Army they should make him run round a yard before they test him. That is a common-sense proposition. I have met a big sturdy fellow and I have seen him fall down after a month's work, although he had never before had any idea that there was anything wrong with him. Millions of money have been spent in this way. A man tested in the ordinary simple way may appear to have a heart strong enough to last a life time, but when he is called upon to make short rushes of fifty yards and then fall down and rush again the weakness of his heart is revealed, although it could not be discovered by the ordinary test. I think these men ought to be made to run 100 yards before they are tested in order to find out any weakness, and then the State would be saved the expense of training unfit men. I submit this as a common-sense proposition, and I think any hon. Member will agree that a man should not be tested for strenuous Army work after a long period of rest.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

May I suggest that these Amendments should be discussed together, which will prevent us wasting time?

Although they are not identical, I think they are so similar that they might be discussed in that way.

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph 4, to insert the following words, "5. Men who at the time of the passing of this Act were fully qualified medical practitioners, or registered dentists, or students at any hospital."

I move this Amendment in order to get an assurance that the form of words which the Government are going to introduce for those who are doing national service shall include not only doctors but medical students in their fourth or fifth year, who are not taken by the War Office now for military service, and I also wish that the case of dentists should be considered. I ask the President of the Local Government Board if he can now assure me that these cases will be included as exceptions.

8.0 P.M.

I should like to emphasise my hon. Friend's point. I think it is extremely desirable even during the time this great struggle is going on that we ought to do all we can to safeguard the health of the community. The President of the Local Government Board, who has done so much public health work, I am sure will appreciate that. He knows that at the present moment, unfortunately, the death rate in this country is increasing. I do no say that it is due entirely to the fact that so many medical men have been called away, but it is due to other reasons as well, although no doubt it is very much accentuated by the fact that the people of this country are unable now to get medical attention like that which they secured in normal times. Therefore I think it would be a very wise provision to exclude medical men from the scope of this Bill. What applies to medical men applies equally to dentists. A great deal of useful work has been done by the setting up of the Dental Committee, which has done much to safeguard the health of the rising generation and has undoubtedly lessened the death rate among children, and therefore I think dentists should be put into the same category as doctors. If the right hon. Gentleman can see his way to meet me, I hope that we will not confine the exemption merely to registered dentists, because they are altogether insufficient to meet the dental needs of the country. There are only 5,400 registered dentists in the country altogether, and a number of them have already been taken away for War Office purposes. There are parts of the country where the dental needs of the people are wholly unmet by registered dentists, and are provided by unregistered men, quite qualified by training and experience, possessing the confidence of the public.

It is somewhat dangerous to start putting in special provisions in this Schedule. Every member of a profession who is needed in this country would be certain to get exemption under Clause 2, Subsection (1), paragraph ( a ). The trbunal can exempt a person on the ground that it is expedient in the national interest that instead of being employed in military service he should be engaged in other work. Surely, if a doctor were to require a certificate of exemption, the tribunal, knowing the needs of the district and knowing that the medical profession is so short, would decide that it is expedient in the national interests that the applicant should be permitted to continue the work of his practice. My hon. Friend starts by saying that you must put in dentists, and he then goes on to say that you must not limit it to qualified dentists, but you must extend it to unregistered dentists. Any man who can extract a tooth would be entitled to call himself an unregistered dentist, because there is no sort of definition. I cannot help thinking that it is much safer to leave the matter and let everyone take his chance under the Bill as it now stands.

The question of fully qualified medical men has, I confess, given me from the earliest stages of this Bill very considerable anxiety, because it is literally true that those engaged in the administration of the public health laws of the country, and those whose business it is, as it is mine, to watch the general conditions of health in the country, and to become acquainted with the supply of medical men and the demands made upon them, cannot view the present situation with anything but grave anxiety. I believe very few people in the country realise, as those of us who are constantly face to face with the official facts realise, how tremendous has been the labour thrown on our medical men since the outbreak of the War, and how unselfishly and heroically they have devoted themselves to their work. I know men who are working day and night in order that the suffering and the sick in their districts shall not go unattended, and many of them with no return whatever. Many of them will be paid very little. We cannot therefore view this matter with anything but anxiety and perhaps some misgiving.

The hon. Member who spoke last (Mr. Glyn-Jones) has, however, put the case in its right proportions. There are, as the Committee knows, two methods by which those who come within the purview of the Bill may be released from service—the exemptions and the exceptions. It would, I think, be a very dangerous proceeding to include in the automatic exceptions all the medical men and dentists. It would enable those to claim exemption and escape from military service who might be very undesirable members of their respective professions and who might be much better fighting the enemy with a rifle or a pistol at the front than fighting diseases in this country. It is, on the other hand, quite obvious that all who belong to those professions and whose services are required should, where the interests of the country demands it, be retained in their practices, and should continue to do their present work. Their case is already met. I hope the Committee will agree that I have justified the position which the Government has taken up and have shown that we have not arrived at this conclusion without a full review of all the circumstances and facts and without considerable anxiety as to the present position in the country.

As a representative of a constituency which has a great many medical men, I have listened with great satisfaction to the right hon. Gentleman. The shortage of medical men even at the present time is undoubtedly extremely serious, but I think for practical reasons the course which the Government are taking in this matter is the right one. A medical man who is wanted will get exemption because it will be apparent that it is inexpedient he should be taken away to serve in the Army. It would not be wise to introduce the broad exception, and I hope the Amendment will not be pressed.

The right hon. Gentleman, as I understand it, is to give general directions to the local tribunal, and I would suggest that he might keep specially in view the retention of those who are engaged in work contributing to the health of the community.

I quite agree with the attitude which the Government are taking up, but it does not go far enough. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will promise to represent to the Army that they ought not to take even volunteers among medical men and dentists unless they want them in connection with their own professional duties. Heaven knows that only too many are willing to go and fight. They will serve their country better at home trying to cure people than by going and killing the enemy.

It is my intention to make it quite clear that medical men ought not to be allowed to take unnecessary risk unless they can be spared from work which I consider equally important. I took the step the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt) suggested four or five months ago, and I have been endeavouring to impress upon the War Office that they really must exercise a little discretion and care in the demands they make upon medical men for the War.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.

The next Amendment, standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Bassetlaw Division (Mr. Hume-Williams)—at the end of paragraph 4 to insert the words "provided that they have first made application under Section 2, Sub-section (1) of this Act"—is not in Order.

I beg to move, in paragraph 5, after the word "force," to insert the words "(other than a certificate of exemption from combatant duties only)."

Yesterday some words were added to the effect that a certificate of exemption might also be given by the tribunal on the ground that the conscientious objector was engaged on work of national importance. Am I right in assuming that this Amendment does not refer to men who receive a certificate of exemption as conscientious objectors, but because they are engaged in work of national importance?

The assurance the hon. Member desires can certainly be given. In the case of the conscientious objector the certificate of exemption may take the form of exemption from combatant duties only, or it may be conditional on the applicant being engaged in some work which in the opinion of the local tribunal is of national importance. This provision here in the Schedule relates to the first exemption, which is from combatant duties only. It does not exempt him from military duties of a non-combatant character. Of course, it would be quite inconsistent with the purpose of the Bill if a man, having got exemption from combatant duties only, while required to take other military duties, should nevertheless be regarded in the Schedule as wholly exempt.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

The next Amendment—after the words last inserted to add the words "or who, after training, fail to come up to the required height and chest measurement," standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Melton (Colonel Yate)—is outside the scope of the Bill.

Why is the question of men rejected outside the scope of the Bill? This Clause deals with the men rejected, and I want to speak on that subject—on the subject of the men who offer themselves for enlistment but are rejected.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot speak on an Amendment which is out of order.

I beg to move, in paragraph 5, to leave out the words "or who have offered themselves for enlistment and been rejected since the fourteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and fifteen."

I think all hon. Members who had anything to do with recruiting work during the Derby campaign will be aware how wide were the fluctuations in the standards of rejection for medical unfitness. Not only was there a great difference of standard between different places, but there was also a difference of standard as between the comparatively slack time at the beginning and some of the periods of rush. When I was on recruiting duty in the early months of the War, and going round as an Inspector, I found in one place the doctors rejected every man who had more than four teeth missing, while in another place the doctor said that as long as a man was well nourished and had hard gums he was all right. I believe this sort of thing also took place during the Derby campaign on a considerable scale. I was also told there had been cases, on a far smaller scale, I trust, of deliberate malingering. Men offered themselves to be attested, and then pretended indifferent sight, and the doctor, not having time to test them thoroughly, rejected them. The object of this Amendment is to enable the military authorities, at greater leisure, to revise the cases of those rejected and see how far any of them are fit to serve. This is made all the more practicable in view of the fact that the War Office, since the inauguration of the Derby scheme, have introduced new and graduated classes, and men are now classified for general service, for field service at home, for garrison service abroad, and at home for labour, road-making and trench digging, and for sedentary work. With that more careful graduation, I believe it would be found that a very considerable number of men who were rejected during the rush of the Derby recruiting campaign will be discovered to be serviceable in one capacity or another, and therefore not proper to be exempted.

I should like to be allowed to join in what has fallen from my hon. Friend about the number of men who have been rejected, and who are likely on further review to be found fit for service. This is a most important question for the War Office, and I trust it will be thoroughly gone into by the right hon. Gentleman. If he will look at the last page of Lord Derby's Report he will see that no fewer than 428,853 men, of whom 207,000 were single men, were rejected between the 23rd October and the 15th December, 1915. The number rejected between the 15th August and the 23rd October has not been given, and the request I made for a Return showing the number of rejections since the commencement of the War has been refused by the War Office. What I want to point out is that the number of the men rejected as being below the standard of height or chest measurement might be reduced, and that they might be brought up to the proper measurement with a little careful training. I should like to bring to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman the experience we have gained on this subject in Leicester, with which town I am particularly concerned. The Leicester recruiting committee found, during the period of 1914, that no less than 27½ per cent. of the men who offered to enlist were rejected as unfit. They took the matter in hand, and formed a reject sub-committee, and the chairman of that committee has now informed them that of 849 men of whom he took charge on their rejection, no fewer than 384 had, as the result of competent instruction and good treatment now been passed as fit and actually enlisted. Two hundred and fifty-four are still under training, and only 211 out of the 849 were finally rejected as unfit for the Service.

I mention this to show what can be done by a little management, and to point out how much good material is wasted, and will continue to be wasted if the Bill is unamended in this respect. I do not want to go into details. It is sufficient to point out the fact that with a little care and training, at least two-thirds, if not three-fourths, of the men rejected as unfit have been enabled to come up to the standard of height and chest measurement. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to make arrangements for the continuance of this experiment under Government supervision, so that no men may be finally rejected, and put outside the scope of the Bill without proper care and examination. The chairman of the Leicester committee, Mr. Tippetts, has intimated to me that he is quite willing to carry on the work which he has so patriotically been doing hitherto, and I trust therefore that this suggestion will be taken up by the War Office and that provision will be made for the care and control of those men who are rejected, so that as many as possible may eventually be brought into the Service. Personally I think the number would be very large.

It is all very well to lay before the Committee one set of figures on an important matter like this, but I think hon. Members should have opportunities of making comparisons with other figures. The hon. Member has stated that 207,000 men were rejected, but he did not add that between 1,000,000 and 1,100,000 men offered themselves, and I believe that the percentage of rejections was not higher than is the general experience. It is usually one in every four or five of those who offer themselves. In my opinion this Amendment is based on an entire misconception of the Derby figures. The complaint hitherto has been not that too many men were rejected, but that too many had been accepted. Another complaint was not that the medical examination was too severe, but that there was no medical examination at all in the last few days, and that 1,000,000 men were attested in four days without being subjected to any medical examination. That is how the vast figures of the Derby scheme were reached. Two and a half millions of men were thus brought in, and the number of rejections was exceedingly small. The suggestion is that the number was very large, and that another system should be adopted. That shows what lengths some may go to in proposing Amendments to a Bill of this kind. One has only to look at the Derby Report to see the tremendous percentage, and when I presented some arguments to show the absence of any necessity for this Bill, I found that unnatural reductions had been made in the Derby Report. Why were those reductions made? It was because the authors of the Report assumed there would be a 40 per cent. drop at the top, and 60 per cent. to 70 per cent. drop in the lower part. It was thought that far too many men had been admitted, and that most gigantic allowances would have to be made in consequence. This Amendment is based entirely on the understanding that the profusion is on the side of those who were admitted under the Derby scheme and for the first time it is suggested that they were not admitted freely at all, but that the excess is on the side of the rejected.

I am not at all implying a different opinion from that of the right hon. Gentleman. I quite agree that a very large number of people were, in the haste of the moment, passed who ought not to have been passed, but it is also true that in the same rush a good many people were hastily rejected who ought to have been passed. I am quite ready to concede that the number of people rejected who ought to have been passed may be very much smaller than the number of people who were passed and ought to have been rejected, but it is still a substantial figure and well worthy their being carefully gone over again.

I am very glad my hon. and gallant Friend has made that explanation. It ought to satisfy the right hon. Gentleman, who is a judge of these matters, and the Committee that the Amendment should not be accepted. What evidence is my hon. and gallant Friend able to submit that in the last four days, during the rush, great numbers were rejected? It has never been suggested before. There are no facts to support it, and it is contrary to reason. Anybody who inquired about it, as I did inquire, would have found that great numbers were admitted who ought to have been rejected under a strict examination. The hon. and gallant Member will not argue that before the last few days the examination was not gone through very carefully. The arguments in favour of the Amendment are a little strained, and the safest way in this particular case is to leave the Bill as it stands.

May I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board to let us know what is the intention of the Government upon this matter? The figures used on both sides have no real bearing on the question. The point is that we are dealing with men who have offered themselves for enlistment and who have been rejected since the 14th August last. There was no great rush then or for some time afterwards. It would be a waste of time to discuss the matter until the Government give an indication of what they intend to do with regard to it.

I am bound to respond to that appeal, if only for the reason that nobody else got up. I frankly confess that I am in a difficulty on this Amendment. I rather hoped we should have had some guidance from the Committee, because my hon. and gallant Friends opposite who moved and supported the Amendment have not been able to give very strong arguments in support of it. Their case is based on what, I am afraid, is the truth, that in the period since the War broke out the work of medical examination of men has been in some cases indifferently performed. On the other hand, in some districts the standard set was a very high one. For instance, there is the standard, with which we are all familiar, which was set by an ambitious commanding officer who was getting his regiment together preparatory to going to India or elsewhere, and who was anxious to get rid of every man whom he thought would not make a fit, strong and enduring soldier. The result of that was that a great many of them were rejected, although if they were brought up now, when there is some time, when the medical examination has been more equalised and when the medical men know better what they are doing, probably a great many of those men would be admitted into the Army. There is this strong reason, which was mentioned by neither of my hon. and gallant Friends who are in favour of this Amendment, that at the early stages men were enlisted only for the combatant branches of the Army, for the actual fighting. Now the whole of the enlistments include men who are fit for general service, field service at home, garrison service at home and abroad, for labour and sedentary work. It is obvious that you could take to-day a great many of the men who were rejected in the earlier stages of the War. From the point of view of the Government that is the case for the Amendment. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary reminds me of another very strong reason, which is that in the early days the pressure was so great that certificates were actually issued by medical men who simply stamped them without signing or dating them, and there were no means of identification. I am afraid the evidence is very clear that in a great many cases those certificates changed hands very illegitimately and improperly. Therefore I have no doubt that with a better system which is more carefully organised now you would find a great deal of excellent material among those who were formerly rejected.

Now comes the argument from the other point of view, and it is on this that I really seek the guidance of the Committee. These men have done their best. They have not been in any sense of the word shirkers. They have done something more than their best, because they have been actual sufferers in consequence of what they have had to undergo, because a man who comes up for admission to the Army and is rejected on the score of medical unfitness has that fact to carry with him as a burden for the rest of his life, unless, happily, another medical examination disposes of it. These men have done all they can. They have been rejected, whether rightly or wrongly, in respect of medical unfitness. There is a residue—a small number, I hope—who got their certificates improperly. I believe in this Bill, or I should not be a member of the Government who introduced it, not only because I believe that the practical and immediate effect of it will be good and that it is necessary, but because it will have a very general moral effect throughout the country. On the whole, unless the feeling in the Committee is much stronger and more general as regards the different quarters of the House than it is at present, I think the Bill should be allowed to stand as it is. I am sorry the Amendment has come on at a time when the Committee is very empty, because the Government very much hoped to have received some indication from the Committee generally as to what their view is, the reason being not that there is any vacillation on our part, but that we ought not suddenly to accept an Amendment of this kind when there has been no indication of it, when it has not been put down in the name of the Government, no means of indicating what our course would be, and no warning given in any quarter that the change was going to be made. We ought not to make suddenly changes which may give rise to the feeling on the part of the men that they are being unfairly or ungenerously treated. It cannot in any circumstances be said of these men that they were shirking their duty. On the whole, the course I would recommend is that the Bill should be allowed to stand as it is. I believe the indirect effect of the Bill will be to bring all these men who want to come in. As regards the small minority who have got their certificates improperly, and who, therefore, are the worst kind of shirkers, all I can say is that if there were any other means by which we could bring them in, I should not hesitate to ask Parliament to give them to us. Therefore, on the whole, though I regret it, rather—and I cannot expect that those who are strongly in favour of this Amendment will regard my reply either as satisfactory or as very conclusive—my advice to the Committee is to adhere to the Bill.

I am sure there is a very simple explanation as to why some of us did not treat this Amendment seriously. It is that nothing that has been said by the right hon. Gentleman, in fairly stating the virtue of the Amendment, could by any stretch of imagination justify its acceptance. The view we hold is, that it would have been an absolute violation of all the claims for this Bill. This Bill was introduced, has been defended, and has been debated purely as a means to deal with slackers. That is the only justification for the Bill. That is all that has been said in its favour. The arguments which have been adduced by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Amery), when on previous Amendments he has tried to establish a claim on military grounds, has been answered every time by this one simple proposition—we are not dealing with the Bill as a complete military measure, but purely and solely on the ground of complying with the Prime Minister's pledge. That has been the answer to all his Amendments. That obviously must be the answer on this Amendment. It cannot be suggested that any of these men come within the category of the 650,000 so-called slackers. In that case by no stretch of imagination can they be brought within this Bill. Therefore, I am delighted to know—I have no doubt about it—that the Government would not think for a moment of accepting this Amendment. On the other hand, I think there has been too much said about men being rejected ad lib. As a matter of fact, I think the reverse is the case. I speak with some knowledge of what is happening, because there were quite 400,000 men in the last few days, in the rush, who were attested without any medical examination, and the tendency was then not to reject them on medical grounds but rather to accept them, and then probably reject them when a closer examination was made. Therefore, I think, from that standpoint, there is really no point in the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. But on the main question, namely, that this Bill can only be justified on the ground of dealing with the so-called slacker, who some of us do not think exists, who some of us believe before ever this Bill will become operative will be proved to have been a myth, we at least are going to stick tenaciously and resist absolutely, and ask the House to resist, any attempt, under the guise of fulfilling this pledge, to bring within the category of conscripts men who have already volunteered as free men and have no right to be called upon again.

The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) said he had been hoping for guidance, but I am one of those who refrained from intervening in the Debate because it never occurred to me that the Government could consistently, with the object of the Bill, accept an Amendment of this kind. There can be no possibility of doubt that the acceptance of an Amendment of this kind would greatly extend the scope of the Bill, and so far the Government have resolutely set themselves against the acceptance of any Amendment from our point of view on the ground that it would by any possibility extend the scope of the Bill or minimise the scheme. I wish to emphasise one point admitted by the President of the Local Government Board. These men have already incurred, in many cases, an actual penalty by reason of their offer and subsequent rejection. There are cases known to me where men who have been rejected as physically unfit have been dismissed from their employment solely in consequence of that certificate as to their physical condition. So far as my own experience goes, if any complaint could be brought against the medical examination it would be to the effect that far more men had been accepted who should have been rejected in the interests of the Army itself, than action in the contrary direction. I have a case in my mind. I was speaking to a young fellow only a day or two ago who came up twice under the Derby scheme as a volunteer. He was twice examined at the Central Recruiting Office in Whitehall and twice rejected. But he was accepted under the Derby scheme after the most casual and superficial medical examination. My own view is that the medical examination under the Derby scheme has erred on the side of slackness rather than, as a general rule, on the side of excessive severity. But I am bound to say, for the information of the Government, that, so far as my own judgment goes, the acceptance of any Amendment of this kind which would enlarge the scope and purpose of the Bill, and which would be false to the raison d'être on which the Bill has been justified toy the Government, would create very serious disquietude and disturbance in public opinion in the country at large.

I should like to say one word of personal explanation before withdrawing the Amendment. I had what I considered good reason to believe that the number of people who might be added to the strength of the Army, or might have been made useful in sedentary occupations for the Army, was a considerable one, and I hoped for guidance from the Front Bench as to whether they thought that number was sufficiently considerable to warrant acceptance of that Amendment. So far from the Front Bench asking for guidance, one would have expected that they would either say "The number of people you are dealing with is so trifling that it is not worth while raising the Amendment," or "It is such a substantial number that, in the interests of the Army, we should like to have them." I introduced the Amendment from the point of view of the interests of the Army and the safety of the country in this great war. But if the real case is that we are simply dealing with a casual pledge—making good the words of one particular Member of this House on some narrow construction of the words—I think it is a pity and a disgrace to this House of Commons that we should be wasting our time on this sort of Bill at all. Surely, if there is any question at a time like this which we should debate it is the question of how to find the necessary men for winning this War. I think those Members who, unlike myself, have had to come over from France and from military duties at some distance from London, and find they are asked not to vote for the strength of the Army, but to vote for the fulfilment of a pledge dealing with slackers, have very good reason to complain of the way they have been treated by the Government. I think also that the country has very good reason to complain that the great questions in which it is interested are not being discussed on their merits, and that the time of the House of Commons is being wasted in a meticulous consideration of the meaning of a pledge which is not a thing that interests the country.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following Amendment stood in the name of Sir H. Elverston: At the end of the Schedule to add, "(6) Until the last day of July, nineteen hundred and sixteen, all men under the age of nineteen years who are in attendance at a school or college for purposes of education or under articles for the purpose of entrance into a profession."

I have an Amendment to the Amendment of my hon. Friend, making it rather fuller in scope. I beg to move that Amendment, leaving out the words "under the age of nineteen years," so that it will read—

"(6) Until the last day of July, nineteen hundred and sixteen, all men who are in attendance at a school or college for purposes of education or under articles for the purpose of entrance into a profession."

There are a number of young men who are being educated at the University of Birmingham—

Was not this question discussed about an hour ago on an Amendment, and did not the Chairman explain that although it had been raised and discussed at some length on the Clauses he was bound to allow it to be formally moved in the Schedule, and it was formally moved in the Schedule? If it is discussed now this will be the third time we have discussed it.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I am fully aware of the position, and I was about to see how far the hon. Member was going. The subject has been fully debated, and I think the right hon. Gen- tleman the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) led off the discussion. If the hon. Member wishes simply to say two or three brief sentences I will not stop him, but strictly speaking he cannot do anything more than formally move the Amendment.

I am much obliged, and I accept your ruling. My point is that the young men who are finishing their courses at commercial universities, such as Birmingham, who will be called up before they have finished their course might be allowed to finish their course, pass their examination, and get their degree as soon as they can do it, which will be the end of the summer, the last day of July in this year. Otherwise they will lose the result of a good deal of study and money which has been expended on their education. It is to do away with a real hardship that I venture to bring forward this Amendment.

This is a special case of the general question which was discussed on the Clauses of the Bill on the Amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) at some length. I do not think that we ought to put among the exceptions in the Bill so very wide an exception as this. The proper course is to allow these cases to be considered individually, one by one, on their merits, in accordance with the machinery provided in the Bill. The Government gave an undertaking that on the Report stage they would consider the matter and bring forward an Amendment which would in fact meet the desires of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Dickinson). That Amendment has been drafted and will be put down, and it will cover so much of the hon. Member's case as ought properly to be covered in the Bill.

I should like to know whether the case would be covered of a training college student who, in the normal course, would be going up for his certificate next July? It will be a great advantage for him if he were allowed to be put back to a later group, or else that the examination should be antedated by two or three months, so that before going into active service he would have secured his certificate. In the case of a first-year student it would be a great advantage if his case could be met to this extent, that he could have six months' training, be put back to a later group, then get his certificate, go into the Army, and at the end of the War take up his profession?

The question of the examination will be a matter for the educational authorities. It could not possibly be adopted in this Bill. With regard to the exemption certificate it could be of a temporary or conditional character if the local tribunal thought proper, which would enable the enlistment to be postponed until after the student had completed the course of which the hon. Member is speaking if the circumstances of the case warrant it.

I am not a supporter of this Bill, and when the question is brought forward for granting exemptions in certain quarters some of us have other exemptions we could name as well as students. I realise the position of the student and the hardship which may be imposed upon him, but what about the young fellow who is in the last two years of his trade, the years that are of most importance. He is taken for the Army and he is spoiled as an efficient workman to an extent quite as great, so far as his career is concerned, as is the student who depends upon taking an examination at a certain time. I hope there will be no exemptions of this character. It does not help the purpose the Government have in mind, and it is unjust to other sections of the community.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, at the end of the Schedule to add:—

"6. Men who since the fifteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and fifteen, have lawfully left the United Kingdom and have continued to be absent therefrom."

This Amendment stands in the name of my hon. Friend (Mr. Holt). The object is to prevent certain men who have left the country for perfectly bonâ fide reasons from being branded as deserters or shirkers. There are, for instance, sailors who, in the regular course of their employment, have left the country since 15th August last and continue to be away on account of their work. There are also young engineers who have gone to the Colonies. Some of them have gone, I believe, to take the place of Germans or to help in taking the place of German firms. It would be very hard if these young men, having gone in a perfectly bonâfide way, should be branded as deserters or defaulters. If this Sub-section is put in it would protect them. Of course, if they again become resident in this country they will be liable to the operations of the Act.

The difficulty in the way of this Amendment is that the hon. Member, in desiring to cover certain classes of cases which no doubt have a strong claim, does in fact include others, who ought not to be so dealt with. In desiring to deal with the person who bonâ fide left the United Kingdom, he also deals with the person who has mala fide left the United Kingdom for the purpose of evading this Bill. No one who has left for a good reason would be branded as a deserter if he has gone to take up a post as an engineer before this Act came into force, and if his passport was duly given to him. If he has gone, as the hon. Member says, to the Colonies to take up a post as engineer, no one would think ill of him on that account, and if he came back he could apply for exemption. Sailors will all be exempted as such, and any sailor who returns will be exempted under the powers of the Board of Trade. If any individual sailor comes back and applies for his certificate of exemption, he can at any time obtain it. The only case which may be a case of hardship is that of a man who has left the United Kingdom and gone to the Colonies and has resided there for some years and, having returned here, some enemy might raise the point that he might technically be considered a deserter.

I remember a story of George Meredith's, which I read not long ago, in the delightful volume published under the title of "A Tale of Chloe"—I forget the exact name of the story—which turns precisely on that incident. A man who had led a reputable life in Australia returns to reside permanently in this country. Someone who has a grudge against him, desiring to work him harm, discovers that he has when a youth, thirty or forty years, before, committed an offence, which might technically be described as desertion, for which he was liable to a very heavy penalty. Such cases as that ought not to arise. Although it is highly improbable that the penalties would be kept hanging over a man's head all his life, perhaps it would be as well to make it quite clear that these penalties should not be enforceable except during the currency of this Act and, say, for a period of six months afterwards, and the Government on Report stage propose to put down an Amendment to make the penalties terminable. I take it that that is the only possible case of grievance that could arise, and that it is an exceedingly remote one, so that the Amendment will not be necessary.

I beg to move, at the end of the Schedule, to add the following new paragraph,

"6. Men who have offered themselves for enlistment since the fourth day of August, nineteen hundred and fourteen, and been rejected and have subsequently married."

The difficulty in our mind in regard to this class of man is that they are not provided for in the First Schedule. I submit that clearly a man who has offered himself once and is rejected for some reason, and whose ground for rejection, say, a slight disease which would be cured by some operation, may have been removed, and who, in the bonâ-fide belief that he was free from military service, has got married, cannot by any stretch of imagination be held to be one of the men who are intended to be covered by this Bill. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks it better to put such a man in the list of exemption or whether he would rather deal with the matter by enabling him to appeal to a tribunal, it being understood that that would be a legitimate ground for exemption by the tribunal.

My hon. Friend forgets that the whole Bill only applies to unmarried men, or, at all events, men who were unmarried on the 2nd November, and that this class of case, which could only arise since the 2nd November, would be a very small class—if, indeed, any such cases existed at all. I am not sure that the tribunal would be able to exempt. Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to examine that more closely, and see whether such a man could under one or more heads claim exemption. If that could be done it would be the best course. The class is so small—I doubt if there is a single individual—that it would be a pity to have a special provision in the Bill if the matter could be dealt with generally under some other Section. If the hon. Member will be good enough to withdraw now, I will consider whether the matter can be dealt with under some other Section of the Bill.

I beg to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, "That the Schedule, as amended, be Schedule I. of the Bill."

9.0 P.M.

There is a question which I have been desired to ask on behalf of certain members of the Independent Methodist Church. It is whether the expression in this Schedule, "regular ministers," will cover the ministers of their denomination, who receive no salary. This Church has about 150 congregations who have regularly appointed ministers, but these men are in other respects laymen, and receive no salary at all as ministers. It seems to be a difficult point of law, and they would be glad to have some guidance upon it.

I should be loth to attempt to interpret a difficult point of law. Cases must obviously be dealt with on their merits. If there are all kinds of gradations from the layman to the complete ecclesiastic and if a layman exercises parsonical functions only occasionally, probably he would no doubt be regarded for the purposes of this Bill as a layman. If he gives practically the whole of his time to the service of the religious community to which he belongs then no doubt he would be regarded as a regular minister of a religious denomination. Certainly I would not venture, on the information which the hon. Member has just given to the House, to give an indication as to how far the class which he mentioned is ecclesiastical and how far it is lay. I am afraid that it is a case which must be left eventually, should it occur, to the interpretation of the Court.

Question put, and agreed to.

Second Schedule

Constitution of Tribunals

1. There shall be a Military Service Tribunal for each local registration district under the National Registration Act, 1915, in Great Britain, or for any division of any such district which may be adopted for the purpose by the registration authority of the district, consisting of such persons, not less than five and not exceeding twenty-five in number, as may be appointed for the purpose by that authority.

2. There shall be Appeal Tribunals, acting within such areas as His Majesty may appoint, consisting of such persons as may be appointed for the purpose by His Majesty.

3. Tribunals may act through committees appointed by them, consisting wholly or partly of members of the tribunal.

4. There shall be a Central Tribunal for Great Britain consisting of such persons as may be appointed for the purpose by His Majesty.

5. His Majesty may by Order in Council make regulations with respect to the procedure of the Military Service Tribunals, the Appeal Tribunal, and the Central Tribunal; and so far as provision is not made for procedure by those regulations, the procedure of the tribunal shall be such as may be determined by the tribunal.

Appeal

1. Any person aggrieved by the decision of a Military Service Tribunal, and any person generally or specially authorised to appeal from the decision of that tribunal by the Army Council, may appeal against the decision of a Military Service Tribunal to the Appeal Tribunal of the area.

2. Any person aggrieved by the decision of an Appeal Tribunal, and any person generally or specially authorised to appeal from the decision of that tribunal by the Army Council, may, by leave of the Appeal Tribunal, appeal to the Central Tribunal.

I beg to move, in paragraph 1, to leave out the words "military service," and to insert instead thereof the word "local."

When I raised a point yesterday it was suggested from the Chair that there would be a more appropriate opportunity if I raised it on this Schedule. The point is as to the composition of the local tribunal. So far as the Committee know, there has been some suggestion that the existing local tribunals under the Derby scheme should be appointed under this Bill to carry out the responsibilities and duties assigned to these local tribunals. May I point out that these local tribunals where appointed ad hoc for a particular purpose, which is really very distinct from the duties and responsibilities which are distinctly ascribed to them by this Bill, and it does not follow, in my judgment, that those tribunals, however admirably adapted for the comparatively limited purpose for which they were ap- pointed, are necessarily the best authorities to deal with the extremely intricate and at the same time most important duties and responsibilities which this Bill allots to the local authority. I rather gathered from something which the President of the Local Government Board said yesterday that he had in mind to institute some changes in the constitution of these local tribunals which would meet the additional responsibility imposed by this Bill. I would like to point out that under this Bill they have duties of extraordinary importance, and some of them are of an extremely delicate kind. Further, with the Bill as it now stands, these local tribunals will have to determine not merely general questions of commerce on various more or less unimportant grounds, but they will also have now to interpret the claims of an applicant for exemption on financial, on special financial, or business grounds, or on domestic obligations.

I believe that in many parts of the country those local tribunals which have been apointed by mayors and town councils are admirably constituted. I have nothing whatever to complain of in the composition of the local tribunals in the areas with which I am personally concerned. But it is quite obvious that there is danger in many small corporations in the country that men in business or others may be appointed on those tribunals to whom it might not be desirable to make a most intimate disclosure of private business, or financial affairs—fellow townsmen and neighbours, or, it may be, rivals in trade. Since we have assigned to these tribunals the extraordinary difficult as well as delicate and onerous task of determining the genuineness of a claim on commercial or conscientious grounds. I think I may submit to the Committee with confidence that not many in this House will be inclined to say offhand, that a town council, however admirably qualified to deal with sundry matters, were necessarily the best authorities to determine these fine questions of conscience. Therefore I hope that to-night we may have on the discussion of this Section of the Schedule some full disclosure from the Government of their intentions as to the constitution of these local tribunals. I have no hesitation in saying that the success of the scheme included in this Bill will very largely turn upon the competence and character of the tribunal which have such onerous duties to discharge. Therefore I hope that we shall have a fairly full disclosure of what the Government is going to do in the matter.

I should like to ask how it is proposed to bring in the course already established in respect of collieries. There does not appear to be anything in the Schedule as at present framed that touches that particular point. The right hon. Gentleman knows that the War Office, before the Home Office took it over, had the supervision of the work in the colliery mining area, which is at present being carried out in the sub-divisions of the inspectors' areas throughout the mining district. I should like to learn from the right hon. Gentleman whether he proposes to introduce a form of words to deal with the special case of the miners.

I think, perhaps, I ought to utter a note of warning. If we are going to have anything in the shape of a general discussion on the tribunals, the comments of hon. Members who move Amendments subsequently must be brief and strictly confined to the particular Amendment. I hope that is clearly understood.

I would like to add a word in support of what has been said with regard to colliery tribunals. As I read the first Section of the Second Schedule, it does not appear, as worded, to cover this particular case, although no doubt it is the intention of the right hon. Gentleman that these tribunals shall be specifically included. They have been set up under the Derby scheme, and they have come into operation. These tribunals are especially fitted to deal with the cases of miners which may come before them. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us an assurance that it is the intention of the Government to include these tribunals, although, as at present worded, the first Section only refers to districts, and does not refer to tribunals dealing with particular collieries.

I only rise for the purpose of asking my right hon. Friend one or two questions which appear to me to arise upon this point. I quite agree with what fell from my hon. Friend (Mr. Sherwell) as to the tribunals, and I hope the Government will, as far as possible, make them, and the procedure before them, as analogous and as near as may be identical with the procedure that takes place in respect of recruits under the Derby scheme. They are at work in all parts of the country, and on the whole are working satisfactorily. I also agree with my hon. Friend that the duties to be cast on the local tribunals under this Bill are more varied and important, and may in some cases be more delicate and difficult than those under the Derby scheme. I therefore rise to ask, and I hope my right hon. Friend may be able to give us the assurance, whether the machinery of the advisory committee, which is an important part of the procedure under the Derby scheme, will be continued under this scheme in connection with the operation of these tribunals. I do not say that these advisory committees are not susceptible of improvement in some cases, but I do say that as they are drawn from larger areas than are the tribunals—at any rate in the case of rural districts—they are performing a very useful work. The fact that their conclusions, which are in the nature of sending an applicant on to the tribunal, are susceptible of appeal, is a corrective of any errors of judgment into which they may fall. I do attach the greatest importance to the application of the principle of advisory committees, with a military representative, in regard to proceedings in the case of recruits under the Derby scheme. I am quite certain that if this Bill is to be accepted with general consent, if the proceedings under it are to carry, as they ought to carry, the maximum weight, it is of great importance that the application of military representatives should have the sanction of what is in effect a civil tribunal, although it is acting in the special capacity of a grand jury. The more you can take from the people of this country, when really critical decisions are given by civil tribunals, these feelings of anxiety which certainly exist in some sections of the population, and when so far as this is concerned, are a hindrance to national efficiency, the better it will be.

I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to assure the Committee that under the regulations which he will issue the advisory committees are to be continued on the lines on which they are now acting in connection with the Derby scheme. There is one other matter. We are now preparing an intermediate appellate tribunal. When you are dealing with tribunals of first instance, local knowledge is of the greatest importance, but when you are dealing with a tribunal which deals with appeals from these tribunals, it is not so much a question of local knowledge as of a really judicial temper and wide experience of the world. That does not necessarily mean members of the legal profession, or any other. You would not exclude such people, and it would be equally foolish to give them a monopoly. I am talking of temperate habits of mind, which men who have wide experience and have had to take critical decisions in many cases have themselves acquired, and which would be of value to the State. Therefore, while one welcomes any information that the Government can give us to-night as to the constitution of the tribunals, I do not press them now for a cut and dried scheme, but I say that the more they are able to tell the House before the Bill leaves here the better. Whether they are able to tell the House their full plan or not, I would respectfully submit to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, and the Colonial Secretary, that the more judicial in character and experience the people who compose the district appellate tribunals, the greater will be the safeguard. I think that particularly affects the question of the conscientious objector. The question whether a man is a conscientious objector or not is not like a question of whether he is necessary as an assistant to a blacksmith, or whether he is a pivotal man in a mill or factory. A question of conscience is most difficult to decide, and it depends a good deal on the acumen and experience and well-regulated imagination of the members of the tribunal. I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentlemen realise these points. There is widespread interest as to the nature of the tribunal, and I do hope the Government will continue the advisory committees and the military representative, which will strengthen the existing tribunals, rather than set up entirely new ones.

Perhaps I may say now what would more directly apply to my Amendment which appears subsequently on the Paper.

If the hon. Member is going to direct his remarks to his Amendment, I should point out to him that I cannot accept that Amendment at this stage, because an Amendment has been moved from the Ministerial Bench, by which the military tribunal is now the local tribunal. I cannot accept a proposal to alter the description of the tribunal in the Schedule. If the hon. Member wishes to move that Amendment he must move it on another stage of the Bill, the Report stage, and not now. Does the hon. Member wish to speak?

I desire to speak precisely in the sense of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, namely, that the business of the tribunal will be more complicated and delicate than any business so far transacted by the committees or tribunals under the Derby scheme. For that reason, whether my Amendment is removed afterwards or not, I think it right to submit to the Committee and to the Government the great desirability of setting up a tribunal which will command the confidence of the particular persons who come before it and of the country at large. It will have to deal, not with the class of people who have come before the Derby tribunal, but with a class with which that tribunal was hardly competent to deal, the class who stayed away from that tribunal, either through distrust or from some other cause. The matters for decision by this tribunal will be of a delicate character. Though not exclusively confined to the conscientious objector, they will be of a delicate character and more or less financial or domestic, or something of that sort. In adjudicating upon matters of that kind under the Military Service Bill, or Act, as it will be, I submit that military officers could not command respect, could not command confidence. Their decision would be a foregone conclusion. The local tribunal, therefore, whatever may be the case with reference to the higher tribunals, which has to do with the local circumstances of the men who come before it, will go far towards determining whether this Act is to work smoothly and successfully or not. Therefore, I hope that the Government will see their way to make this tribunal, if not exclusively at least largely civil, not alone in its constitution, but in the rules and regulations under which it acts.

I think everyone of us must agree that this question of the local tribunals is one of vital importance to the smooth and successful working of the Bill. I take it that technically it will be necessary to reappoint all local tribunals. The tribunals which have been working under the Derby scheme may be practically reappointed, but there must be a new appointment. Although in many districts, I know from my own knowledge, these local tribunals have under the Derby scheme worked excellently, yet, at the same time, there are localities in the country where I think it will be necessary to reconstruct those tribunals, in order to meet the new situation which will be created by this Bill. I also desire to support the view of my hon. Friend (Sir R. Adkins) in regard to the desirability of continuing upon the same lines as under the Derby scheme the advisory committees in connection with this Bill. There is the further point which I wish to emphasise, and that is as to the area for the Appeal Courts. In my judgment the county ought to be the area for those Courts. Lastly, there is the question, and a very important one it is, of the Central Appellate Court. I wish to impress upon the Government the absolute necessity of making that Central Appeal Court, which will have to deal with very important questions, representative of all portions of the United Kingdom. It is not necessary at this stage to make any special claim for any particular portion of the country. I think the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that if this Central Appeal Court is to command the general confidence of the country it must have upon it members who have an accurate knowledge of the conditions with which they have to deal. I would once more emphasise the importance of having a thoroughly representative appeal tribunal.

I desire to support the appeal for an explanation of what is intended by the Court set up by this Schedule. It is quite clear, from the speeches to which we have listened, that there is great confusion in the minds of hon. and perhaps right hon. Members as to what this tribunal will be and how it will work. I agree that we are to have an entirely new tribunal, and that the whole apparatus of the Derby scheme and of the National Registration Act, 1915, is at an end, or at any rate is not within the scope of this Bill. No powers are conferred by this measure on these tribunals which are now called the local tribunals. The Schedule says that there shall be a local tribunal for each local registration district under the Act of 1915—that is, that these tribunals shall exist in future; they are to be constituted under this Act, but we are nowhere told how they are to be constituted. While the National Registration Act, 1915, said that the local tribunals should consist of persons ap- pointed by the local authority in each of the several areas under the Act, this Bill does not show by whom the local tribunal is to be constituted at all. I hope that that apparent omission will be explained, and that, if necessary, words will be added showing how the tribunal is to be constituted and what its functions will be. There is confusion also as to the advisory committee. The advisory committee is, I understand, a body consisting of persons nominated under the recruiting scheme by the Whips of the several parties in this House. No doubt it has discharged some very useful functions under the Derby scheme, and may be a very useful institution. But what are to be its functions, if any, under this Bill, I am at a loss to know. There is no ray of enlightenment in the Bill. I hope that these matters will be explained, and, if necessary, appropriate words inserted.

It will, perhaps, be convenient that I should now state with such clearness as I can command the view of the Government as to the duties of these Courts. I find in these Debates a misconception or misunderstanding which has run through nearly the whole of the discussion. I do not in the least wonder at it, because I myself, who ought to know better, have more than once, when dealing with questions similar to the one we are now discussing, talked of the Derby scheme and its various auxiliaries as if it were some part of our statutory or national system, whereas, of course, it is a creation which does infinite credit to its authors and those who have worked it, but it does not form any actual part in our Constitution. I should like to dispose at once of a comparatively side issue. It has been suggested that it is very desirable that we should retain the machinery known as the advisory committee, and one hon. Member said that he did not see how this was brought into the Bill, or how it was part of the scheme. It does not require to be brought into the Bill. There are, and must always be, two parties to the operations of this or any other recruiting scheme—the War Office and its machinery on the one hand, and the people and any machinery they may create for themselves on the other. The advisory committee and the recruiting officer are the War Office machinery, and the object of the advisory committee is to facilitate the work of the recruiting officer and to act very much as the grand juries act in our judicial system. The grand juries clear the lists of cases where the facts are so evident that it would not be worth while their going to the jury.

There is a general impression in some quarters—I hope it is not very widely felt in this House—that under this Bill you are going to create a great monster in the form of a military machine, which, upon a given day when the clock strikes twelve, will throw out a series of terribly drastic iron arms, which will grab every man they can find who they think comes under this Bill. The machinery is nothing of the kind. The procedure of the War Office will be as intelligent and modernised as the machinery of any other Government Department. Whatever flaws the country may think it right to attribute to War Office procedure, I do not think, on reflection, they will accuse it of acting with undue severity. The recruiting officer will go on just as he is going on now. I have every reason to believe that the War Office will continue these advisory committees in existence as they are now, and that they will fulfil the extremely useful functions which they have fulfilled up to the present of clearing the list in respect of the recruiting officer of those cases in regard to which they think there is no uncertainty. They have no absolute power at this moment. The advisory committee is not able to say some things. What they can, and do say to the recruiting officer—and we are deriving great benefit from it—is: "This is a perfectly clear case, this is one of those cases which cannot possibly be spared." The committee will act on this advice, and pro tanto relieve the tribunals of that part of their work. Certainly it is the hope and intention, so far as the War Office goes, to maintain the advisory committees, to maintain the present system almost identically as it exists to-day, and to give it, so far as necessary—and it is necessary—a statutory position which it has not yet hitherto occupied. I hope all will sufficiently realise the position of the advisory committees and the position of the military officer under what is called the Derby scheme.

Our procedure is to be precisely similar to that now existing. Under the Derby scheme you have the local tribunals, and you have the central tribunals. We propose to create a third—an appeal tribunal. The reason for doing this is that in all probability there will be a much greater number of appeal cases under this Bill, when it becomes an Act of Parliament, than there would have been under the Derby scheme. Therefore, we have thought that if we were to leave the system of tribunals as they are, the result would be that the central tribunal would have to hear all the appeal cases, and it would either have to be so strengthened and increased in numbers as to make it an utterly unwieldy body, or it would be blocked in its business which would lead to confusion and delay. In consequence we shall put the appeal tribunal in between. Over that is the central tribunal which is now in existence, and which we propose to continue and strengthen only so far as it is necessary to make it more fully representative of Great Britain than it is now. The hon. Member for Denbighshire, who spoke last, expressed the hope that there would be generally a more representative character given to the central body. I though that he spoke with great justification that in the creation of that body there was not any note taken of representation either in the districts or areas, or different parts of Great Britain, or any particular class. All we sought to do was to get together, as we had to do rather hurriedly, half a dozen men who by their training and knowledge would be likely to discharge the somewhat difficult duties which fell to this tribunal, and which it was necessary should be performed without delay under the Derby scheme. If that tribunal is to be the final court of appeal, clearly where the business is so much heavier it is, I think, essential that it should be representative. Although my hon. Friend who made this suggestion, felt under a severe restraint I may perhaps say, without his even making the suggestion, I thought it was desirable to strengthen the representation of that part of Great Britain of which he is so distinguished a representative in order to show that the central tribunal really represents in essence, as well as in fact, the whole of Great Britain which will come under the operations of this Bill.

The central tribunal will be composed by His Majesty on the advice of his Ministers. I think it will be my duty to advise His Majesty in regard to the appointment of that tribunal. I need hardly say that I find myself in entire agreement with everything which has been said by those who have spoken on the question of those appeals committees. Throughout, not only these debates, but throughout all our debates, we have all been extremely anxious that the central tribunal, the appeal court and the local tribunal should all be constituted in such a way as to secure that their work shall be done to the general satisfaction of the country. We hope that all interests will be represented on them, and that we shall secure the service of men who are of a judicial mind and temperament; who are experienced and accustomed to weigh evidence, and who go there, so far as is possible, with unprejudiced minds. It has been suggested to me that we ought not to allow anybody to sit upon these tribunals who is a pronounced opponent of what we call conscription. I do not propose to adopt any rule of that kind, and for this reason: That I am bound to say that if I were to make up my mind that nobody should be put on these tribunals who held strong anti-conscriptionist views, in common justice I should also be compelled to say that nobody should be put on who holds views in favour of universal compulsory service. I do not think we need go into that kind of thing. I have great confidence that when this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament it will be administered in the spirit in which this House has been pleased to debate it, and is going to pass it. If I may respectfully say so, I believe it is not the least service to have rendered to your country at this juncture, that we have shown our enemy—and we have only got one enemy!—we have shown our common foe that even though we may hold strong views upon controversial questions like this, once we make up our minds that, in the opinion of those responsible for the Government of the country, legislation of a particular character is necessary, we drop the controversial aspect of the case, and we are all united—as we have all been—in trying to make the measure workable and a success. I trust that the example this House has shown to the country will be followed by the country, and that these tribunals and that those who administer and perform their duties there will show a real desire to make those who go to them feel that their cases have been fairly heard and that they are likely to receive justice.

There are two special considerations now before us. I make no excuse whatever for putting first, the position of labour. I make no excuse for this reason: We Ministers are in a privileged position to- day. We are able to talk on these questions without it being thrown in our teeth that we are thinking of votes. Happily to-day votes are eliminated from all our deliberations. We on this bench are not in the position, as we were in opposition, always telling the Government of the day in what they are doing they were thinking of the next elections. We are not thinking of the next by-election, or of the next General Election, or of how we are to get a majority. We are not thinking of these things at all—either of votes or elections. These things are entirely on one side. It is, therefore, not for any reason of that kind that I put the question of labour in the forefront. It is for the reason that national service, whether it be voluntary or whether it be compelled national service, must, in the nature of things, impose upon the wage-earning man a much heavier burden and a much greater responsibility than it can impose upon the man who is better off. The working man has to risk, as does the better-off man, his health and his life, but he has also to leave those who are dependent upon him in a position of far greater difference, exposed to far greater risks and trials, than do the people who are better off, and, therefore, obviously their case must differ from the others, and what we want to be certain of is that on these tribunals there shall be a full and proper representation of labour throughout the country. Now how is this to be secured? I have been told, with perfect truth, that, as the Bill stands, there is not sufficient power for these tribunals. I am now talking of the three tribunals—the central tribunal, the appeal tribunal, and the local tribunal. The constitution of the central and appeal tribunals rests with the Minister who advises the Sovereign by Order in Council, and, therefore, I think it is only necessary to say what are our intentions with regard to the local tribunals. These tribunals are appointed now by the local authorities, and when my hon. Friend sneered rather at this on the ground that they are sanitary authorities, I thought he would appreciate that, after all, that is only a name. They are practically the only local authority for the area they represent. These local authorities at present appoint the tribunals upon instructions which they receive from my Department. It is true that, as the Bill stands, the power in regard to constitution is not quite sufficient, but there is an Amendment on the Paper to insert the words "constitution, functions, and," in paragraph 5, so that the paragraph would read,

I come to another interest, which has also to be considered. I have heard a great deal in these Debates about the "conscientious objector." We have heard speeches from men with whom most of us entirely disagree. I say frankly, not only do I disagree with them, but I am quite unable—perhaps because I am partly stupid—to understand the frame of mind which enables a man to say that, in certain circumstances such as those in which we are now placed, he will on no account take part in military work. I cannot understand it, but because I do appreciate that these men are sincere, honest, and earnest in the views they hold, though I think them mistaken views, I maintain that these tribunals should be so constituted that the cases of these persons can be fully and fairly considered. Therefore, we mean to secure not only that there shall be adequate representation of labour, but our selection will be such, we hope, as will secure the presence on these tribunals of men who by their training and their experience will give full and fair consideration even to these more extreme cases which, being limited in number, appeal less probably to the sympathy of our fellow countrymen than do the ordinary cases. There are Amendments on the Paper suggesting that these tribunals shall be constituted in a particular way—half shall be drawn by particular representation of organised labour, and so on. I would beg the Committee to realise that you cannot lay down any hard-and-fast rule of that kind, and that conditions which might apply usefully and successfully to the mining industry would be wholly inapplicable to the agricultural districts of the country. You must trust that this work will be done by regulation. You have got this control, that the Government can be held responsible and can be brought to account here if they fail in their duty.

I am not going to ask from the Committee any special consideration for the Government, or to make all sorts of promises, which might afterwards be thrown in my teeth, but I am going to ask the Committee to look at this, the lowest point of view, and to ask themselves, Who today is the most interested of all people concerned in the successful, the smooth, the happy working of this measure? I say, without hesitation, there is nobody who has so much at stake as the Government themselves. Supposing by unwise action, supposing by not securing on these tribunals adequate representation of labour, or full and proper consideration to cases such as the Quakers—supposing by steps of this kind we give rise to irritation, annoyance and even, it may be, to ebullitions of disorder, who will suffer most? Why the Government, who have to deal with those cases, and will find in them probably the utmost difficulty and complexity. Surely it is more to our interest than it is to the interest of any other individual body in the country so to frame our regulations, so to bring this Act into force, as to secure for it the easiest passage, the smoothest reception, and the most successful result. This is the spirit in which we shall approach the performance of this part of our task. As the special Minister who will be responsible I shall welcome very heartily any suggestion which may be made to me either by individual Members of this House or by representatives of groups or sections in the House. I shall be most grateful for any suggestions, whether they take the form of a particular composition of these councils or of individual names of people from different parts of the country where hon. Members themselves live. The task is not an easy one. Do not think that I am brushing it aside as something that can be easily done or that I think my responsibility can be discharged by merely making promises. Nothing of the kind. My desire is that all interests, so far as we can ensure it, shall be thoroughly represented, and that these tribunals shall command the respect of those who appeal, and above all I want to emphasise that these tribunals will be civilian in character and not military.

The duty of the War Office and the military will be to find these men and take them, and the duty of the Court will be to see that every provision contained in this Bill will be respected, and that every opportunity is given to a man to show whether or not he comes within the purview of this Bill when it becomes an Act of Parliament. These civilian tribunals, constituted, as I have indicated, I hope will command the confidence of the House of Commons. Their duty will be responsible and difficult, but I believe they will perform it with single-mindedness, honesty, and integrity. Indeed I feel quite confident that this will be the case. I am one who believes in the future of my country, and I believe profoundly in my country. I do not doubt, and I have never done, what will be the end of this War. Although I am confident; I feel and feel profoundly that if we are going to win, as we are going to win, we must leave no stone unturned and spare no effort, and above all make all our resources available. It is for this reason that we have presented this Bill to Parliament, and it is for this reason that we are seeking now to place it upon the Statute Book. Very shortly, in almost a few hours, Parliament will have done its share. I believe that these various tribunals will do their part, and will realise that on their shoulders will rest a great responsibility, because it lies with them to say what contribution the State shall make to the fighting forces of the country. I hope and believe that the scheme that I have outlined will command the confidence of this House and the country, and in conclusion I have only to add my respectful assurance to the House that in securing the creation of these tribunals I am actuated solely by a desire to do my duty honestly to all classes and interests in the community.

I think my decision at five minutes past nine to allow a general discussion on the tribunals has been justified by the remarkable general information which we have had put before the Committee. I would very strongly suggest that we should now come back to the Amendments themselves.

Question, "That the words 'military service' be left out," put, and agreed to.

I beg to move, in paragraph 1, to leave out the words "or for any division of any such district which may be adopted for the purpose by the registration authority of the district."

10.0 P.M.

After the general discussion which has taken place, I shall not trouble the Committee with many arguments. The Committee is aware that the local tribunale are set up for each registration district similar to the registration district set up under the Registration Act. I think the powers given of sub-division ought not to be given to these particular districts. If smaller areas are adopted the effect will be that you will have pettifogging tribunals, and the Act will not get the respect which it ought to receive. I think that would be unfortunate.

I hope that the hon. Member will not press this proposal, because these words have been put in specially to meet what has actually occurred in Scotland. In these circumstances I hope my hon. Friend will be satisfied.

What is the object of subdividing these districts? Simply to make them statutory where the districts have already been sub-divided.

The new tribunals in one sense will supersede the old ones, but what we are really doing is that we are making the old tribunals statutory.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in paragraph 1, to leave out the words "registration authority" and to insert instead thereof the words "parliamentary recruiting committee."

I would like to thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said with reference to keeping these advisory committees going. The object of my Amendment is to provide that the old Parliamentary recruiting committees may carry on the work which they have done so well under Lord Derby's scheme. The men on those committees have gained a great deal of experience, and they ought to continue the work. It seems to me most necessary to have continuity in the work, but, having regard to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, I do not propose to press my Amendment.

If this Amendment in order? The expression "Parliamentary Recruiting Committee" is one with which we are familiar domestically, but has it any Parliamentary sanction from the point of view of statutory power? Is it in order to move that words be omitted in order that other words may be inserted which do not represent anything from the point of view of the House of Commons?

That is a very good argument against the Amendment, but it is rather a question on the merits than a point of Order.

I wish to join in thanking the President of the Local Government Board for his statement, which I am sure will be received with great satisfaction. Under paragraph 5 His Majesty, by Order in Council, may make regulations with respect to the procedure of these tribunals, and the right hon. Gentleman, no doubt, will consider whether under those regulations he can make public the fact that these committees will continue to exist to advise the Military Tribunals. That will be useful to people who are prosecuting their appeals under the old scheme, and to relatives and friends who may be prosecuting their appeals under the new scheme.

The hon. Gentleman distinctly stated that he did not propose to press his Amendment, and really it is not before the Committee. Are we entitled to go on with a discussion which is really in the air?

An hon. Member was consulting me for the moment about an Amendment. Then I turned and asked the hon. Member for Islington (Mr. Wiles) if he moved, and I understood him to say that he did.

There is no necessity for the hon. Member to explain. I have put the question. It is before the Committee, and it has to be disposed of.

I am greatly interested in this Amendment, and I wish to ask what is the registration authority? With a view of fortifying myself, I got the Registration Act, and I would like to know whether the authority under this new Bill is the same as that set up by Section 2 of the National Registration Act? I believe it is a most satisfactory authority, and I do not wish to see it shut out by this Amendment.

The authority is the same as that known under that Act as the Registration Authority. It is really the urban and rural district councils, which means the corporations, what used to be called the local boards, and the rural councils. I hope my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment. He has got all the information he wants in the remarks I have already made, and of course to leave out these words would destroy a fundamental part of the machinery of the Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in paragraph 1, to leave out the word "twenty-five," and to insert instead thereof the word "fifteen."

I move this Amendment in order to ask the right hon. Gentleman why the Government have fixed upon so very large a number as twenty-five. If you have a tribunal of twenty-five, I cannot help thinking that it will be entirely unsuitable for the work, and I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman, at any rate in his regulations, should make some stipulation that the number should not be larger than that I have named.

I hope my right hon. Friend will not persist, in this Amendment. Twenty-five is only the maximum number. In certain cases the area is very large and the work very heavy. It was found that with a large population in a very diversifieds area a smaller number would not be workable. We therefore take power to have a Committee sufficiently large for the work to be done.

Question, "That the word 'twenty-five' stand part of the Schedule," put, and agreed to.

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph 1, to add the words "and among such persons there shall be included representatives of trade unions to the extent of one-half the number."

It would be invidious, after the very complete statement made by the right hon. Gentleman, if I were to debate this particular point at all, but I think it would be interesting to the Committee if the reason for this Amendment were stated. In the interview the Prime Minister very kindly gave the Labour representatives a few days ago, the tribunals appointed within the mining industry came up for consideration. In those tribunals practically half represents the trade union element in the industry, and it was felt that the confidence, which is the very basis of this Bill, would really be very well established if a similar condition of things could be brought about in the other industries. One can quite see that it would be difficult to say in every case that there must be not less than one-half, and we have listened with a good deal of respect to the right hon. Gentleman's statement that there is at any rate to be complete representation of the working classes. Personally, I have very great regard for my own industry, and I think we have done very well indeed in this matter of representation on tribunals. But, in view of his complete statement and the sympathetic way in which the right hon. Gentleman has treated the whole question, I am very loth to press this Amendment, although I will formally move it in order to see what prospect there would be for a proposal to secure one-half or any other fraction of representation, if any.

I would point out there is all the difference in the world between a tribunal specially appointed to deal with a particular question on which there may be agreement between employers and employed and a tribunal which covers large areas and represents a variety of workers. To suggest that one-half at least of the members of such a tribunal as the latter should be representatives of trade unions would be unworkable, even in cases where trade unionists were to be found in considerable numbers. There are many parts of the country where there are no trade unions and to which such a provision therefore could not be applicable. I hope and trust my hon. Friend will be satisfied with my undertaking to see that the representation of labour is fair and just.

I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman how, with the best possible disposition, it would be possible for him to secure that a certain percentage of trade unionists, or of any other class, shall be members of the tribunal. How, for example, could the Islington Borough Council ensure that half the representatives of the tribunal it appointed be trade unionists, or anything else? It seems to me that the Amendment is totally impracticable.

I appreciate the objection of the President of the Local Government Board to the Amendment as it stands, but I think it desirable there should be some provision by which these tribunals should consist, to the extent of at least one half of representatives of the working classes. It might not be possible to ensure that they be trade unionist representatives, but it is desirable they should be representatives of the working class.

In view of the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman, and without going into detail, I am bound to say that it is very ample, and therefore I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph 1, to insert the words "and such tribunals shall be composed of women to the extent of not less than one-fifth of the whole number."

I should like to take this opportunity of saying, as one who has been an opponent of the Bill from the beginning, how very grateful we are for the extremely generous spirit in which the President of the Local Board has met those of us who have been seeking to amend the Bill in the direction we should like to see it amended. May I add that in my experience in the House of Commons I have never seen a Bill who have conducted the negotiations in a who have conducted the negotiations in a more generous and courteous manner than has been the case in regard to this measure, and if anything could reconcile me to the support of a Coalition Government, it would be the accession to it of these right hon. Gentlemen. The President of the Local Government Board said it was his very earnest desire that all interests should be represented on these tribunals, and, in moving this Amendment, my object is to ensure the representation of a class which has a very close interest in the decisions of the tribunals. It is quite true that women cannot be called upon to fight, but they have an interest which is not less than that of those who are actually conscripted. Many of the matters which will come before these tribunals are matters upon which the knowledge, experience and advice of women will be very useful indeed. For instance, the question of dependency will arise, and women, with their domestic experience, will be able to give invaluable advice to a tribunal on such a matter. They might be of assistance in determining the cases of conscientious objections. This Amendment follows the precedent of all recent legislation. I doubt if there has been an Act of Parliament passed in recent years setting up local committees of any kind in which a provision of this kind has not been inserted. The proportion is a very moderate one indeed. The minimum number on a committee is five, in which case there would be one woman, and even where the maximum number is appointed there would be only five women. I submit the Amendment with great confidence that its reasonableness will lead to its acceptance.

There is no intention on our part to exclude the representation of women. Already there are women on some of the Derby tribunals, if not on all of them. The presence of women would, in many cases, be very valuable, but I hope we shall not put anything into the Bill which makes it absolutely obligatory that there must be some certain proportion of women, because it might be extremely inconvenient, and in some cases it might lead to very considerable difficulty. I can assure the Committee that care will be taken to convey to the authorities that the representation of women is desirable, and that, where suitable representatives can be found, it is their duty to put them: on the tribunals. But to lay it down here as a hard and fast rule would be a mistake. In all other cases we have left it open.

Will the right hon. Gentleman meet us by leaving out the number? My hon. Friend would not press the Amendment making it necessary to have one-fifth so long as there is provision made that the proportion of women may be one-fifth. I think we are all agreed as to the necessity.

These tribunals will often be receiving evidence from various persons who have dependants. In many cases it is the women of the families who may be the most desirable witnesses to give evidence in order to influence the tribunals—mothers, wives and sisters. It is extremely desirable that a Court which is going to receive the evidence of women should be composed partly of women. The suggestion made by the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) is a very reasonable one. If we cannot have a recognised proportion, at least let us be quite certain that no tribunal which may hear the evidence of women is set up without a woman being upon it.

I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman has gone as far as he has in this foolish piece of sentimentalism. This, grim business does not want women in it at all in my opinion. I am profoundly grateful as an Englishman for what women are doing to mitigate the horrors of this War. This is a piece of sentimentality to which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give steadfast opposition.

We have just been told that in this grim business of war women ought to take no part.

I did not say anything of the kind. What I said was that I was profoundly grateful—I yield to no man in my gratitude and my pride in what our Englishwomen have done to mitigate the horrors of this War in their merciful ministrations to the sick and wounded; but this piece of sentimentality has no practical value. Women do not want to be on these committees, and the right hon. Gentleman has gone, in my opinion, if anything almost too far.

I am sorry to have misunderstood the hon. Gentleman, but I thought he said women had no place in. this grim business. In point of fact, hon. Members in all parts of the House will recognise that women in this country have played an enormous part in this crisis, not in one direction but in every direction—in industry, in Red Cross work, and in all directions, and the record of the work they have done in ever so many directions will stand out and will be remembered long after the War is over. I think there are reasons which might be stated, but this is bound to happen, that again and again you are going to have questions considered by these tribunals which are largely human and domestic questions, and there is a very real claim that women should have representation. I should be quite willing, and I am sure my hon. Friend (Mr. Snowden) would also be willing, to delete all reference to the extent of the representation, but I think we might agree to the extent that women should have a definite place upon these tribunals, because I am sure there are many questions which will come up for discussion which are quite as much women's questions as they are men's questions, which are human questions, and therefore ought to be decided by the collective wisdom of men and women.

I hope we are not going to be landed into a discussion in the nature of women suffrage. My right hon. Friend and I, representing opposing sides, are in agreement on this. I really do not agree with my hon. Friend opposite. The whole question is not one of sentimentality, but whether women will or will not be useful on these committees. That is to be decided by what we have already found, that they have been put on the Derby committees. Hon. Members below the Gangway who believe in women suffrage claim equality with men. The promise given by my right hon. Friend is that where women are useful regulations will enable them to be put on. As regards the statement that on each tribunal there must be one, that would not be a proper arrangement. In some districts it might be impossible to find a suitable woman.

Before proceeding further with this Amendment, or asking leave to withdraw, I want to understand clearly what is the concession that we have got. It is this, that in the regulations the tribunals will be recommended to seek the assistance of women in the constitution of the tribunals? Or will it be a definite instruction that where possible one or more women should be added to the tribunals? Is that the concession we have got?

I think possibly that is what it comes to, but I did not suggest one or more women. My hon. Friend, although he is not going to press this Amendment, wants something more. He only wanted one in five, now he wants one or more. What I would do would be to communicate with the tribunals to the effect that where suitable women are available it is very desirable that there should be one of them on the tribunal.

Although I am not satisfied, I will withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in paragraph 2, to leave out the words "by His Majesty" ["appointed for the purpose by His Majesty"], and to insert instead thereof the words "in England and Wales by the Lord Chancellor and in Scotland by the Lord President of the Court of Session for the time being."

There are many of my Amendments which I have not moved, and I hope the Committee will do me the kindness to allow me to move this. It is a very small matter but I attach considerable importance to it. I think it is usual in appointing judicial or quasi-judicial bodies of this character to go to the Lord Chancellor for the appointment. The Lord Chancellor is in the position to appoint persons of a more judicial, or I will say impartial atmosphere and tradition, than if you go to the Government, which is more accessible for merely party or personal reasons. Though I do not want to start by saying that the appointments made would not be largely satisfactory. I personally should have the prejudice that the appointments made by the Lord Chancellor would be in the long run more likely to be satisfactory to all the parties concerned.

I do not think this would be a desirable Amendment, because the words "by His Majesty" mean Parliament, which gives some control, whereas I am afraid we have not much control over the Lord Chancellor. Can the Colonial Secretary give me some information. I understand the authority and the area of the local tribunal, and I understand the central tribunal, but I do not understand what is to be the area or the composition of the appeal tribunal. If the right hon. Gentleman would give the Committee some information as to the area of the appeal tribunal and its composition I should be very much obliged.

That was explained in the statement of my right hon. Friends. In the main the counties are to be the area. As to the Amendment of my hon. Friend opposite the motive is quite plain. It is that he has more confidence in a lawyer than in the Government. I can understand the lack of confidence in the Government, but I am surprised at the expression of confidence in the lawyer. If he has any fear that the legal profession will not be adequately represented on any tribunal or on anything else constituted in this country let him banish it from his mind. I hope that he will not press the Amendment.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph 3.

I do not like the idea of a tribunal delegating its powers to Committees except under very clear safeguards. For instance, if it were proposed that a tribunal of twenty could divide itself up into four committes of five there would be no objection. But if it is intended that a tribunal can form committees in which men who are not in accord with the majority might be excluded from all active work of the tribunal that would be most objectionable. It should be specified clearly that in the division of a tribunal into committees every member of the tribunal should be a member of some committee or other. Another thing which seems to be extraordinary is that committees may consist partly of persons who are not members of the tribunal. These tribunals are in effect Courts of Justice, and I have never heard of any Court of Justice which had power to delegate its functions to other persons. The idea of magistrates or the judges in our Courts delegating their functions to persons co-opted by them would appear to be most extraordinary. Under this paragraph it appears quite possible for the tribunal to conduct the whole of its business by means of a committee on which only one single member of the tribunal would have a place. That is not in the least necessary. If there are not enough members on the tribunal to discharge its functions properly it ought to be possible for those persons who appointed the tribunal to appoint additional members of the tribunal. I may point out that this paragraph appears to include not only local tribunals, but appeal tribunals. The idea of an appeal tribunal being appointed by His Majesty and then co-opting to itself a large number of other persons about whom nobody knows anything, and then proceeding to delegate its own functions to the co-opted members, is quite impracticable. I would also like to know from the Government what is the quorum?

I am rather sorry that this really small matter has been raised. We are doing now what has been put into practice by tribunals already in operation. It is certainly very valuable to be able to have committees, or sub-committees, and where an area consists of several interests, to take on outsiders to represent those particular interests. The system has worked extremely well. It was not invented by the Government. As to questions of a quorum, and so on, these can be left to the committees.

What is the difficulty of the tribunal appointing additional members—adding to their number?

I also have an Amendment to delete this Sub-section, and I wish to address to the Government a question on a legal point. The work is done by a committee of the tribunal, and who is "the authority"—the words used in the Bill—to revert to—the committee which has just done the work or the tribunal who appointed it? The committee might not be in existence when a return is to be made to that Committee under paragraphs (2) and (3). The legal point arises, if the work is done by the committee, who is "the authority"—the committee or the tribunal?

I quite agree with my right hon. Friend, that this is intended to meet an actual practical necessity; but practical needs might be met by some different form of words. If you have a tribunal in a large town, consisting of twelve members, it might be found most convenient that the tribunal should divide itself to sit in four parts of the town—three members in each. There is rather a difficulty about adding members for particular cases. It is easy enough with advisory committees, where you are merely advising military representatives, but you are dealing with actual tribunals. Ought not the public to know beforehand exactly whom the tribunals are composed of? This really might be met by saying that the tribunals might act through any of their members, and a sufficient quorum would be within the regulations. It is, as a matter of fact, necessary that the tribunal, in some cases, should have power to divide itself when necessary. In large rural districts it would be most convenient for the tribunal to divide itself, sitting in two places perhaps several miles apart. That is a somewhat different point from acting through committees, and from acting through committees which might have only one member of the tribunal upon them. I thoroughly sympathise with the position of the Government in the matter, but I do feel the importance of the constitution and composition of the tribunals.

I would remind the Committee that this system is already in existence. In Liverpool, for instance, it was found desirable to appoint a committee to deal exclusively with the case of the dockers. That committee was most valuable, and had outside members upon it. I will, however, look into the matter and see what can be done.

I quite agree that, as in the case of Liverpool, it may be a very good thing to have a special committee for a particular purpose, but I still do not see why it could not be appointed by the people who appoint the tribunal. I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his assurance, and ask leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph 4.

I do so in order to put a question to the Colonial Secretary. The provision is that there is to be a central tribunal for Great Britain. Is that central tribunal to sit in London or will it sit in the various countries. As my right hon. Friend knows, in Scotland and in Wales there are very large munition areas. If the man who is affected has himself to appear before that central tribunal it would be waste of time and money to have to come to London. I presume it will make its own arrangements to sit in Scotland or at Welsh coal-fields, and if that is the intention I ask leave to withdraw.

I beg to move, in paragraph 5, after the word "regulations," to insert the words "which shall forthwith be presented to Parliament."

Without accepting the words of the hon. Member, I can say that the regulations will be presented, but on the clear understanding that presentation to Parliament does not mean that the regulations are to lie on the Table and not to become operative until so many days elapse. That I cannot do, but I give my hon. Friend the assurance that they will be presented.

I think the understanding is perfectly fair, and one that ought to be accepted. I ask that there will be opportunities for discussing those regulations by the House, and that the presentation will not be merely formal, but that Members desiring to raise objections shall have the opportunity of doing so.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in paragraph 5, after the word "the" ["with respect to the procedure"], to insert the words "constitution, functions, and."

This is the Amendment to which I referred just now, giving the Government additional powers with regard to the tribunal.

The right hon. Gentleman, when asked about the colliery tribunals, said that their position was safeguarded and maintained, because he was taking power under this paragraph to deal with the constitution and functions as well as with the procedure of these tribunals. I do not see how that settles the question. As I understand the constitution, functions and procedure referred to here are those of the local tribunals, the appeal tribunal, and the central tribunal; I do not understand that they have any reference to the colliery tribunals.

I am not a draftsman, but I am advised that this paragraph will enable us to continue in existence the miners tribunals. If there is any difficulty I will provide for it on report.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In paragraph 5, leave out the words "Military Service," and insert instead thereof the word "Local";

At the end of paragraph 5, insert the words "Regulations made under this provision shall contain instructions to the local and appeal tribunals given with a view to securing uniformity of decision and practice amongst the several tribunals.

Any Order in Council under this provision may be revoked or varied by any subsequent Order in Council and any regulations made under any such Order shall as soon as may be presented to Parliament."

In paragraph 1 (Appeal), leave out the words "Military Service," and insert instead thereof the word "Local" (twice)—[ Mr. Long. ]

I beg to move, at the end of the Schedule, to add the words,

"No costs shall be payable to the Crown or the military authorities in respect of any proceedings or appeals under this Act. Costs of witnesses required to establish a claim for exemption shall be provided out of the county funds."

I move this Amendment on behalf of my hon Friend the Member for Blackburn, for the purpose of getting an explanation as to the question of costs, especially in regard to poorer people who have to appear before these tribunals. One of the difficulties of recent legislation under the Munitions Act has been that when a workman has been compelled to come before the court he has been there perhaps one or two days trying to get his case proved, and no matter how clearly his case has been established he has had no claim for costs in any shape or form. I should like to know if this point has been in any way considered, and whether, if a man loses a day's work in order to attend the court, costs will be allowed?

I would like to look into this matter between now and the Report stage. I have an impression that the matter is one for the War Office.

I hope my hon. Friend will protect the county funds in this matter, which is one between the War Office and the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, at the end of the Schedule, to add the words,

"and such leave to appeal shall not be refused except by the unanimous decision of the members of the appeal tribunal that the grounds of appeal are frivolous."

I move this Amendment on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley in order to raise an important point and to get a declaration from the Government. I entirely sympathise with the object of this Amendment, although I myself could not go so far as the whole suggestion. I do think that the Government, ought to give us some indication on the point.

Of course it will be necessary under the regulations to make a regulation on this point, but I certainly should not think of adopting the suggestion in the Amendment which might paralyse the work altogether. We shall take care that in any case where a refusal to appeal is given that there must be a majority in favour of it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I should like, Mr. Whitley, although I believe it is rather unusual, to express the feeling of satisfaction—or perhaps a rather stronger feeling than that—on behalf of my right hon. Friend and myself for the way in which all sides of the House have dealt with this very important Bill. This is no ordinary case, because we have felt from the first that the way in which the Bill was dealt with in the House of Commons might have the greatest possible influence on the way in which it would be received outside. I certainly feel that, as many parts of the Bill were objected to on both sides of the House, we have reason to be grateful for the restraint that hon. Members have shown all through the Committee stage.

I only want to say, as an old Member of the House, and one who has passed through many stormy scenes, that I have never seen a Bill which might very easily have led to passionate and heated debate conducted with greater skill or in a more conciliatory manner than this Bill has been conducted through the House. I still am an opponent of the Bill, but I must say that everything that conciliation and skill could do to disarm hostility has been done. I am an old admirer of the Parliamentary judgment and skill of the Prime Minister, but I think he never exhibited greater skill than by retreating from the scene, and leaving the conduct of this Bill to his right hon. Friends (Mr. Bonar Law and Mr. Long).

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next (24th January), and to be printed. [Bill 181].

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

Whereupon, Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 3rd February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Two minutes after Eleven o'clock, till to-morrow (Friday), pursuant to the Order of the House this day.